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Oral Answers to Questions
(11 years ago)
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Tristram Hunt (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab)
1. What recent assessment she has made of the level of funding available to regional arts organisations.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey)
I am sure that the House will allow me briefly to pay tribute to Sir Colin Davis, one of the world’s finest conductors, who died last week.
Over the life of this Parliament, we will invest almost £3 billion to help to create rich cultural experiences for as many people as possible across the country.
Tristram Hunt
I thank the Minister for his answer and I echo his tribute to Sir Colin.
Does the Minister share my real concern that the Arts Council appears ready to allocate a further £20 million of taxpayers’ money to London’s South Bank when so many arts organisations in the regions are crying out for funding? Given that our capital city is so wealthy and has such deep pockets, surely a much greater proportion of private and charitable funds should be financing that otherwise very worthwhile endeavour.
Mr Vaizey
That is a capital allocation for the further redevelopment of the South Bank, and obviously some of our major national arts institutions are based in the capital, but something like £174 million is going to arts organisations outside the capital this year, and that level of funding will continue.
Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con)
Chester is the north-west’s flag-bearer in the bid to be the city of culture in 2017, and we are trying to build a coalition of local and regional organisations to support our bid. What support is the Department offering in relation to city of culture 2017? Would my hon. Friend care to visit Chester and see the jewel in the crown of the north-west?
Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab)
Is the Minister aware that some local authorities, such as my own in Exeter, are doing their best to maintain the cultural and artistic life of their areas in spite of the massive Arts Council cuts, while others—neighbouring Somerset, for example—have cut support for the arts completely? Does he believe that such cuts are a false economy?
Mr Vaizey
The right hon. Gentleman could have cited the battle that we had with Newcastle, which initially planned to cut all its arts funding. I believe that local authorities should invest in the arts, as has the city of Liverpool, which, on the back of being the European capital of culture, is now a cultural and tourist destination that is second to none.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
Kettering’s Alfred East art gallery is the oldest purpose-built gallery in Northamptonshire and, to celebrate its centenary this year, it recently put on display some 350 pictures, filling the gallery. Will my hon. Friend encourage other art galleries around the country to get paintings out of their archives and to put them on display?
Gloria De Piero (Ashfield) (Lab)
Lottery funding is a crucial source of cash for regional arts organisations, and I have repeatedly asked Camelot to provide a constituency breakdown of the purchase of lottery tickets so that MPs on both sides of the House can see whether their constituents are getting their fair share of cash. Will the Minister urge Camelot to provide such a breakdown?
Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab)
The Minister recently claimed that the Government’s funding cuts had had no impact on new writing in regional theatre, but the report “In Battalions” tells a very different story. Over the past 12 months, 62% of theatres have had to cancel one or more new plays, and 54% are commissioning fewer of them. The Minister must surely agree that that is significantly different from what he claimed. Does he therefore accept that the Government’s policies are hitting regional theatre, and will he tell the House what he is going to do about it?
Mr Vaizey
We have responded to the “In Battalions” report. I note that, of the 20 or so theatres that took part in the survey, about half had actually received an increase in their funding. We continue to support new writing, and theatre cuts amount to less than about 3% overall, so theatre has been well protected. The report concentrated on a few theatres whose funding had been impacted and did not concentrate on those that had had their funding increased or had received new funding. It ill behoves the hon. Gentleman, who supported Newcastle’s arts cuts, to complain about arts cuts.
Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)
2. What progress her Department has made in improving broadband availability throughout the UK.
Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con)
8. What progress she has made on broadband delivery.
The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Maria Miller)
Two thirds of premises in the UK now have superfast broadband available. Some 100,000 more homes and businesses are getting coverage every week and average speeds have increased from 5.2 megabits in May 2010 to 12 megabits by November 2012.
Alun Cairns
The Government have made excellent progress in rolling out broadband across the UK, and the Secretary of State should be congratulated on that. However, there are some rural communities where the last mile remains a problem. What consideration has she given to reviewing the regulations to empower rural communities to take more control in assisting in the rolling out of broadband to their areas?
Maria Miller
As my hon. Friend will know, the Government have committed to 2 megabits on a universal basis throughout the country. We also have a £20 million rural community broadband fund to do the sorts of things he mentions, including working with the Welsh Assembly to make sure broadband reaches rural areas. Importantly, we are also always looking at ways to remove barriers that are stopping that last mile, and I will continue to work with my hon. Friend and other colleagues on that.
Andrew Selous
On 9 February last year I asked the Secretary of State’s predecessor when broadband speeds would improve in villages including Hockliffe, Tilsworth, Stanbridge and Eggington in my constituency, where speeds continue to be about 1 megabit per minute, which makes watching video on the internet very difficult. Will I be able to pass on some good news to my constituents shortly?
Maria Miller
I understand my hon. Friend’s impatience, and the nine months’ delay we had in getting state aid approval for our broadband programme was certainly problematic. I am pleased to be able to tell him that the programme in his Bedfordshire constituency is green-rated and that we are due to begin its procurement in the week of 7 May, with the contract to be agreed in August. That is good news for his constituents.
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
The Government’s complete and utter incompetence—[Hon. Members: “Hear, hear!”] Already I have support. The Government’s complete and utter incompetence in the Department for Transport’s letting of the west coast main line franchise means delays that will result in the trains to Cardiff and Swansea having no wi-fi or broadband until 2016. When will the Secretary of State seize hold of that opportunity, because the situation is creating real difficulties for businesses that want to relocate from London to south Wales?
Maria Miller
I understand the hon. Gentleman’s point about the ability of business people—or anybody else—to do work when on trains, and I have spoken to my colleagues in the Department for Transport about it. Importantly, however, as I have said, two thirds of premises in this country now have access to superfast broadband. The hon. Gentleman will also want to know that the internet contributes more than 8% to the UK economy, which is the highest proportion in any G8 country. We are impatient for more change, but we have already made a great deal of progress.
Ms Harriet Harman (Camberwell and Peckham) (Lab)
First, may I join in what the Minister, the hon. Member for Wantage (Mr Vaizey), said about Sir Colin Davis? He was an enormous figure in music, who was admired and respected, and who inspired people not only in this country, but around the world. He is a sad loss to the London Symphony Orchestra, this country and music generally.
Everyone knows that access to decent-speed broadband is vital to businesses and people’s work and home life and is needed in all areas. When we were in government, we committed to everyone in the UK getting decent-speed broadband—at least 2 megabits per second—by the end of last year. This Government abandoned that target, and Ofcom says that 2.6 million households still have not got decent-speed broadband. Instead the Government promised superfast broadband by the end of 2015, but there is growing concern that they will not meet that target. Can the Secretary of State assure the House that those concerns are wrong and that she is on track to meet the Government’s target of 90% of premises getting superfast broadband by 2015?
Maria Miller
The difference between the right hon. and learned Lady and me is that she may speak warm words, but this Government are actually making practical interventions. Not only with our commitment to 2 megabits universally, but through our urban project and our rural broadband project, we are actually delivering for the people of this country. More than two thirds of premises now have access to superfast broadband, so perhaps it is little wonder that the people of this country bought so many goods and services online in 2011—we bought more than any other major economy. Broadband has a fantastic role to play, and we are making sure it reaches more and more households. Indeed, it will reach 10 million more households by the end of this Parliament.
Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)
3. What assessment she has made of progress towards rolling out superfast broadband to 90% of premises by 2015.
John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab)
10. What assessment she has made of progress towards rolling out superfast broadband to 90% of premises by 2015.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey)
We are making good progress. With the signing of the procurement for Northumberland this week, 20 projects should be under way, representing more than 60% of the budget. All procurements are scheduled to complete by the end of summer 2013.
Mr Vaizey
I know that the hon. Gentleman will welcome the contract that was signed on 8 March with Onlincolnshire, the brand for the delivery of broadband in Lincolnshire, with £14 million of investment from the Government and £8.5 million coming from BT. At the end of that contract, the coverage will be not just 90% but 94.5%.
John Robertson
Following the supplementary question of my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Camberwell and Peckham (Ms Harman) on Question 2, access to broadband and superfast broadband is one thing, but uptake is another. At a time when the Government are trying to make people use broadband to access benefits, what are they doing to ensure that such people have access to broadband and that it is rolled out, considering that, as a written reply they gave me demonstrates, they do not even know the numbers?
Mr Vaizey
I treat any question asked by the hon. Gentleman with great respect, given his long and distinguished career with BT. [Interruption.] I would like to answer the question, but I am being heckled by the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant). Perhaps when he stops heckling me, I can get on with answering that important question. The previous Government appointed Martha Lane Fox to run the Race Online 2012 campaign, which has become Go ON UK. She has brought together charities and businesses to encourage people to get online, which is very important. The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills also has a campaign to encourage small businesses to get online and learn to use e-commerce.
Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
Small businesses in rural areas are desperate to access superfast broadband and most of the not spots are in rural areas of north Yorkshire. What are the Government doing to penetrate the 10% of rural areas that have no prospect of superfast broadband by 2025?
Mr Vaizey
I know that my hon. Friend, as the Chair of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee, does a fantastic job in highlighting the need for access to superfast broadband in rural areas. I was delighted to visit north Yorkshire at the end of last year to open the first cabinet. The uptake of superfast broadband from the cabinet that I opened is 30% ahead of schedule and more than 15,000 homes in north Yorkshire have already been reached, thanks to that programme and the Government’s help.
Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con)
Commercial firms and Worcestershire county council are making excellent progress in rolling out superfast broadband in Worcestershire. In addition, villages in my constituency such as Overbury, Little Witley and Martley have come up with innovative rural solutions. Will the Minister welcome an event that I am holding in Pershore on 10 May to demonstrate those alternative technologies to some of the rural communities that are in the last 10%?
Mr Vaizey
I have worked closely with my hon. Friend on some of the community projects that she has championed in her constituency. If her constituents are watching this morning, I can tell them that they have no more doughty champion. She stops me at every possible occasion to raise these issues. She and I have worked together to push through the bureaucracy and get these innovative community projects up and running, so of course I welcome them.
Gavin Williamson (South Staffordshire) (Con)
4. What steps she is taking to promote tourism on inland waterways.
The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Hugh Robertson)
The Government, through VisitEngland, promote tourism on inland waterways in a number of ways. Inland waterways have benefited from Government funding through the £25 million rural growth fund and a £1 billion contribution to the Canal and River Trust.
Gavin Williamson
South Staffordshire has some of the finest canals in England, with the Staffordshire and Worcestershire canal and the Shropshire Union canal. What more can my right hon. Friend do to encourage not only more domestic tourists, but more international tourists to discover the delights of our canals, which would bring much-needed business not just to rural communities, but to our towns and cities?
Hugh Robertson
I have a very simple and, I hope, positive answer for my hon. Friend. VisitBritain will actively market all of Britain’s canals and waterways on its public-facing website. I hope that that will achieve the effect that he desires.
Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op)
The Nene runs through my constituency, providing great leisure facilities for tourists and locals. However, when I visit places such as Barnwell country park these days, it concerns me to see such a reduction in resources, particularly from the local authorities. For example, the rangers are gone and the hides that had been maintained have been taken away. Will the Department for Culture, Media and Sport make representations to the Department for Communities and Local Government on its budgets, given that they will be cut under the Chancellor’s recent Budget?
Hugh Robertson
Clearly, my Department wants to do everything it can to encourage tourism and the development of tourism facilities. Decisions made by local authorities in that regard are, of course, a matter for them, but I assure the hon. Gentleman that for those assets that lie within my control, everything will be done to promote the inland waterways of this country.
Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) (Con)
5. What plans she has to ensure a suitable commemoration of the centenary of the first world war.
Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con)
9. What plans she has to ensure a suitable commemoration of the centenary of the first world war.
The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Maria Miller)
The Government will deliver a four-year programme to mark the centenary, focused around the themes of remembrance, youth and education. We will lead the nation in acts of remembrance, and a £50 million fund will be made available to provide a framework for learning and community-led projects.
Penny Mordaunt
For Hampshire, investing in our heritage will also yield considerable sums in visitor revenue. I am delighted that Hampshire county council has sought to invest in HMS Monitor M33, which will yield millions in heritage funds and tourism income. Does the Secretary of State think that Hampshire Liberal Democrats who opposed that measure should visit Portsmouth dockyard to see what a good return on investment looks like?
Maria Miller
I thank my hon.—and maybe gallant?—Friend for that question. I have visited Monitor M33 and there are only two such battleships left in existence. Hampshire county council has had the foresight to invest in something that would otherwise have been lost to the nation, and it should be applauded for doing so. As my hon. Friend points out, that is not only good for the heritage of our country, but great for tourism in Portsmouth.
Henry Smith
What discussions has my right hon. Friend had with broadcasters, particularly BBC local radio, to mark this important centenary? No community in our country was left untouched by the impact of the first world war.
Maria Miller
My hon. Friend is right to say that every community—and, indeed, every individual—in this country can find their story with regards to the first world war. My officials have been talking to the BBC and other institutions that are already well developed in the ways they will be supporting this important event, which was probably one of the most defining in this nation’s history.
Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)
A huge contribution was made by Dr Elsie Inglis and the medical teams of women who helped not just as nurses, but as doctors. They felt that their contribution was to the whole of the UK, not merely to Scotland. Is the Secretary of State prepared to meet me and other Edinburgh MPs to discuss how that contribution could be commemorated in London? I understand that some difficulty has been placed in the way of an exhibition on that.
Maria Miller
The hon. Lady raises the important issue of the role of women and the way in which the first world war had an immeasurable impact on that. I would, of course, be delighted to hear more about the point she raises, particularly the role of women in medicine. The lottery will make available funding for local community projects, and I am already working closely with Scotland and Scottish officials to ensure that we correctly mark this event in Scotland too.
Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)
The first world war was caused by a complete foreign policy malfunction based on the imperial ambitions of the elites of the time. It resulted in the deaths of 30 million soldiers and 7 million civilians. Surely the Secretary of State agrees that it would be more appropriate to commemorate the end of the war, rather than to replicate in 2014 a jamboree reminiscent of the jingoistic nonsense used to drum up support for the slaughter.
Maria Miller
I have to say that the tone of the hon. Gentleman’s intervention is not quite what I would like to hear. We should ensure that we mark the entirety of the first world war from its beginning to its end, as it had a considerable impact on every community in this country. I recently had the honour of visiting many of the war graves of those who gave their lives throughout the war, and we need to ensure that we honour their memory in full.
Eric Ollerenshaw (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Con)
17. On a recent visit to the war graves in Belgium, with all the emotions that everybody feels, it struck me how much we owe to thousands of soldiers from across the Indian subcontinent, the Caribbean, Africa, Nepal and, in one cemetery, even China. There is a real chance in these commemorations to involve every British person, regardless of race or religious background.
Maria Miller
My hon. Friend is right. I, too, have seen some of those graves. I can reassure him that our noble Friend Baroness Warsi and I are working with me on that—she has a number of commemorative events in hand.
Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con)
6. What progress she has made in ensuring the future delivery of broadband to rural areas.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey)
Our analysis suggests that funding for the Cheshire project is in line with funding for other projects. Given the high level of European regional development funding plus contributions from local authorities, fibre coverage is expected to reach 96% of premises in Cheshire at the end of the programme. We are hoping to sign the contract by the end of this month. I hope my hon. Friend will help me to reach that goal.
Fiona Bruce
I thank the Minister for that reply, which rather pre-empts my supplementary question. Perhaps I could cite some figures in support of my belief that Cheshire’s Broadband Delivery UK funding needs to be looked at again. In comparison with other northern counties—Shropshire has £8 million, Lancashire has £10 million and Cumbria has £17 million—Cheshire has been provided with £4 million. Will the Minister meet me and representatives from Cheshire East council to discuss that?
Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab)
The Minister has said in the House before that money has been allocated to the devolved Government in Edinburgh. Has there been much discussion since the allocation of that funding on how broadband is rolling out in rural areas in Scotland?
Mr Vaizey
We have allocated £100 million to the devolved Administration in Scotland. We have regular discussions, not just between the Minister responsible and me but among officials. We signed the highlands and islands enterprise agreement, which was one of the most difficult to sign because of the extremely rural nature of the area. I understand that roll-out plans continue apace, but I will certainly re-engage with the Scottish Minister at the earliest opportunity.
David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con)
14. I welcome the steps that the Government are taking to improve broadband provision in rural areas, but will my hon. Friend tell the House what steps the Government are taking to make available best practice on community-led solutions to help our most isolated rural communities? Will he also tell the House whether BT and other service providers are involved in that important initiative?
Mr Vaizey
We work closely with the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs on the rural community broadband fund, which is designed to help communities that are not part of the local and national rural broadband roll-out to get access to superfast broadband. Of course, we also work closely with BT and other providers on that.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
7. What steps she is taking to ensure a cultural climate which encourages small companies and start-ups in the arts sector.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey)
The Government are developing a wide range of initiatives through our creative economy programme and Arts Council England to support the establishment of small companies within the arts sector. In 2011, we launched Creative England, a national agency that invests in and supports creative companies.
Mr Sheerman
This is supposed to be the Department of Culture, not the Department of Philistines. If the Minister goes to real parts of the country outside London, he will see that there are so few grants and little money available for start-ups. The lifeblood of our cultural heritage and our cultural future comes from new groups starting up. Theatre groups, literary groups and groups across the piece are starved of resource. That is not good enough. What is he doing about it?
Mr Vaizey
I bow to no one in my admiration for the hon. Gentleman—[Interruption]—apart from my Secretary of State, as was said from a sedentary position. I say that particularly given his family connection with the Arts Council and the expertise that he is able to access across the dinner table on occasion. We are working very hard. Most of the money that we use to fund arts organisations goes outside London, and we set up Creative England to provide a national body to support creative start-ups outside London, and that is doing a fine job.
Mr Speaker
It sounds as though the Sheerman household is an improving environment.
Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con)
Will the Minister join me in the commending the excellent work of the Creative Foundation in Folkestone in supporting start-up creative businesses? Does he agree that its work will make Folkestone and east Kent an excellent choice for UK city of culture in 2017?
Mr Vaizey
I have visited Folkestone on many occasions. It not only has the adornment of my hon. Friend as its Member of Parliament, but benefits from the extraordinary philanthropic work of Roger De Haan, who has invested millions in Folkestone. He understands that investing in culture is one of the key ways of ensuring regeneration.
Simon Wright (Norwich South) (LD)
11. What progress her Department has made on its review of B2 gaming machines and other aspects of gaming machine stake and prize limits.
The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Hugh Robertson)
The consultation period for the triennial review of gaming machine stakes and prize limits closed on Tuesday 9 April, at which point my Department had received over 9,000 responses. Officials are currently in the process of analysing them.
Simon Wright
My constituent David Armstrong became addicted to B2 machines, losing more than £100,000 over four years. Real people are suffering real hardship from these machines. Although the Government are seeking more evidence of the link, that will take time, so may I urge the Minister to take a precautionary approach in the meantime and limit the maximum stake to £2?
Hugh Robertson
It goes without saying that I am extremely sad to hear about the case my hon. Friend raises. I very much hope that he was able to respond as part of the review and that his response is one of those being analysed by my officials. If that review produces the sort of evidence that he has cited, I absolutely give him the assurance both that we are very aware of the problem and that we will not hesitate to act on the basis of that evidence.
Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)
12. What her policy is on competition in the telecommunications market.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey)
Our telecoms market is one of the most open and competitive in the world. Effective deregulation has set industry free to create new services and set international standards. Of course, the way we configured the 4G auction ensured that we remained a full-player marketplace in mobile.
Stephen Timms
The mobile operator 3 has a licence because the previous Government wanted competition. The Secretary of State and I were recently at a celebration of 3’s 10th anniversary. That competition has hugely benefited customers, so why has the entire rural superfast broadband fund been handed to one company—to BT? BT is now behaving like any monopolist that has everyone over a barrel, and we have heard about the consequences from all sides this morning. Why has competition been forgotten?
Mr Vaizey
Competition has not been forgotten. May I say that I bow to no one in my respect for the right hon. Gentleman as a former telecoms Minister who did so much to promote competition. As a result of that, BT has just a 30% share of the broadband market, and the market share of the historic incumbent in the copper broadband market is one of the lowest in the world. That is a testament to the right hon. Gentleman’s great work, but we are carrying it on. We made sure that our process for rural broadband was competitive. It just so happens that BT has won the contracts, and I reject the suggestion that it is behaving like a monopolist. We are getting value for money for our contracts, and BT is a great British company doing a great job for Britain.
Peter Luff (Mid Worcestershire) (Con)
On the subject of rural broadband, I encourage my hon. Friend to recognise that there is more competition in the market than some people understand. Companies such as Cotswold Satellite in my constituency have high-quality, high-speed and low-cost satellite services that are available now, to anyone who wants them.
Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab)
I am sure the Minister will join me in welcoming the National Audit Office inquiry into why the 4G auction raised £1 billion less than was forecast. In a time of austerity, it is quite wrong for the mobile phone companies to be given spectrum at prices below even what they were prepared to pay. In his letter to me, the Comptroller and Auditor General said:
“This differs from the earlier auction of 3G spectrum…where the generation of proceeds was at least one of the objectives of the auction.”
Why was the Minister so casual with taxpayers’ assets?
Mr Vaizey
I utterly reject that accusation. After the 3G auction, there was a National Audit Office inquiry, and it is entirely standard procedure to have the NAO run the ruler over the 4G auction. I happen to believe that Ofcom did a fantastic job in running it. I went personally last night to congratulate the 92 men and women who worked on that auction and delivered a fantastic result. In the 3G auction, telecom companies paid far too much and it took too long to roll out 3G. Now we are likely to get 4G by the end of 2015— two years ahead of schedule and with 98% coverage.
Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con)
13. What steps she is taking to increase the contribution of tourism to the British economy.
The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Maria Miller)
The campaign launched by a partnership between the GREAT campaign and VisitBritain will deliver 4.6 million inbound visitors and more than £2 billion of spending by 2015. VisitEngland’s marketing, including Holidays at home are GREAT, generated incremental spending of nearly £30 million last year, and a new round will be launched in May.
Mark Pawsey
My constituency benefits from being the only place to have given its name to a sport that is played all over the world. My right hon. Friend was kind enough to accept my invitation to visit Rugby and see how we are preparing for the 2015 world cup. Does she agree that my constituency’s link to the game provides a fantastic opportunity for the boosting of local tourism in our economy?
Maria Miller
My hon. Friend is right to draw our attention to the historic link between international sporting events and tourism. All Members should think about how they can promote the efforts that their constituencies are making to benefit from the tourism industry, which now supports more than 2.5 million jobs and more than £100 billion in the economy.
Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)
Britain’s musical heritage is one of the key drivers of tourism in this country. Liverpool is the most obvious example because of the Beatles, but we should also remember Manchester during the heyday of Madchester and the Hacienda. What is the Minister doing to bring such examples to the attention of tourists to the UK, and how does that fit into the Government’s strategy?
Maria Miller
The hon. Lady is absolutely right. Many of our cultural institutions are going abroad to present a positive image of this country’s cultural and arts sector to potential visitors, but it is campaigns such as the GREAT campaign that can pinpoint cultural assets which reside not only in the south-east and around our capital city but throughout the United Kingdom, and can encourage more people to enjoy more of our great country.
Mr Adrian Sanders (Torbay) (LD)
15. Given that transport links are one of the Government’s priorities for tourism, what discussions is the Secretary of State having with those in other Departments about improving, in particular, rail links to our major tourism hotspots?
Maria Miller
I know that the hon. Gentleman takes a keen interest in this subject. As he knows, we have launched an extensive programme to establish how we can improve not just rail links but other transport links throughout the country, and tourism has to be at the heart of those discussions because of its important role in the UK economy.
Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con)
T1. If she will make a statement on her departmental responsibilities.
The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Maria Miller)
On behalf of the whole House, let me put on record that our thoughts are with, and our condolences go out to, all who have been affected by the tragic events that took place at the Boston marathon. I was pleased to learn that this weekend’s runners here in London, a number of whom will be Members of Parliament—including our own departmental Whip, my hon. Friend the Member for Loughborough (Nicky Morgan)—will be asked to wear a black ribbon as a sign of respect and solidarity, and that a period of silence will be observed before the race begins.
Andrew Stephenson
I echo my right hon. Friend’s comments about the Boston marathon. Our thoughts and prayers are with the families of those who were injured.
Back in February, I raised with the ministerial team the subject of Olympic legacy funding and the funding of grass-roots sports clubs. I am delighted to say that since then another Pendle club, Burwain sailing club and training centre, has benefited from funding. I have recently been working with Colne football club, which will also be bidding for funds. What more can Ministers do to promote the funding that is available to grass-roots sports clubs in Pendle?
Maria Miller
As my hon. Friend will know, increasing participation in sport is at the heart of our legacy programme, and we have a £1 billion fund to promote it. In particular we have the Places People Play scheme, which relates directly to the legacy, the aim of which is to ensure that people continue to be inspired by London 2012 not just for the next 12 months, but for the next decade.
Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab)
Everyone will want to send condolences to those who have been affected by the bombing that took place during the Boston marathon on Monday. This Sunday 37,500 runners will take part in the London marathon, and hundreds of thousands of people will line the streets to cheer them on. Some will be cheering on my hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley Central (Dan Jarvis), and we wish him all the best.
Given that the London marathon is one of the greatest occasions in the annual sporting calendar for the United Kingdom, may I invite the Secretary of State to deliver some words of reassurance, and to update us on discussions in which she has engaged with the aim of ensuring that that sporting event on Sunday is what we remember?
Maria Miller
The hon. Gentleman is right to bring that up. He will know from London 2012 that this country has a great deal of experience of ensuring that our sporting events go well and that security is at the heart of the planning process. The London marathon is no different and I can tell him clearly that my right hon. Friend the sports Minister met the Mayor yesterday to go through the plans again to reassure themselves and the Government that we have the right security procedures in place. We are reassured, as a result of our experience not just with the marathon but with the Olympics, that we have the right people in place to ensure that the event is a great success.
Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con)
T5. I commend the Minister on the work that is being done on rolling out superfast broadband, but this week I have heard from some constituents who are concerned about possible delays in rolling out superfast broadband to rural Fylde. May I have an assurance that the Minister will look into this and that we will get some transparency from BT to ensure that we have reassurances for rural areas?
Maria Miller
I can understand why my hon. Friend has raised that issue. As I said earlier, the role of superfast broadband and connectivity in our lives is growing. It is one of the most important ways that people can do business in this country. We are ensuring that it is a priority to get connectivity, whether it is through 4G or superfast broadband, to all areas of the country. I am pleased to consider specific examples, but I can reassure my hon. Friend that the Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, my hon. Friend the Member for Wantage (Mr Vaizey), is meeting BT weekly to go through each of the procurement plans in detail. Indeed, 60% of our programme for rural areas has been procured and it is going ahead at great speed.
Tristram Hunt (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab)
T2. Has the Secretary of State had any luck in breaking the logjam of appointments in Downing street, or is the Prime Minister still blocking anyone who is not a member of the Conservative party from serving on trusts and boards?
Maria Miller
The hon. Gentleman is perhaps thinking back to a bygone age, when that was an issue. I can reassure him that we want to have the best people in place to do the job. What I will say directly to the hon. Gentleman is that we are trying to do a better job of ensuring that we get more women involved in those appointments and that we have diversity on our boards, not just in business but in trusts.
David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con)
T6. The Britain on Foot campaign, which will be launched publicly in May, will help many more people to get active outdoors and will help boost tourism in rural areas. Will my right hon. Friend confirm that the Government back those aims and the campaign and will she join me in welcoming the hard work that is going on from the British Mountaineering Council, the Outdoor Industry Association and the Ramblers in taking this forward?
Maria Miller
I know that my hon. Friend takes a deep interest in this subject and I absolutely agree with him about the importance of getting people out and about so that they can enjoy the beautiful countryside of our country. The initiative that he has undertaken is absolutely right, as it will not just improve people’s health but show tourism opportunities.
Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab)
T3. The Minister wants councils to invest in the arts, yet the Department for Communities and Local Government has cut council budgets in such a draconian manner that many of them are being forced to fund services only when they are statutorily required to do so. Since the arts are an important factor in economic regeneration, when will we get some joined-up government so that his Department is not pulling in one direction while the DCLG pulls in another?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey)
When will we get Labour councils that, instead of keeping money for their back offices, support money for the arts? When will we get Labour spokesmen in this House condemning Labour councils that cut the arts budget?
Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)
T8. Does the Secretary of State agree that if one believes that the highest of British culture can be found in military music and pageantry, in the architecture of Sir Christopher Wren—about whom it was famously said “Si monumentum requiris, circumspice”—and in the incomparable English of the King James version of the Bible, no finer example could be found than yesterday’s magnificent funeral for the late and great Margaret Thatcher?
Maria Miller
My hon. Friend raises an important point. All of us will have felt that yesterday’s event was superbly staged not only by St Paul’s cathedral, but by our military personnel. It was a fitting tribute to a great leader and a woman who is an inspiration to many of us.
Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab)
T4. Birmingham, historically the city of Pebble Mill, has great BBC traditions. Widespread concern has been expressed that in Britain’s second city, much programme making has been transferred, with the licence fee payer in the midlands no longer receiving value for money. Does the Minister agree that with dialogue now under way with the new director-general, our great national broadcaster has an obligation to ensure that Birmingham does not suffer a disproportionate impact and remains a world-class centre of production and programme making?
Mr Vaizey
The BBC is obviously independent of politicians and it would be wrong of us to make decisions on its behalf. Under the previous Government the BBC began the move to Salford, which has been very important. I know that the new director-general recognises, as did his predecessors, that the BBC has a duty to the whole country. May I also take this opportunity to welcome the opening of the biggest library in Europe in Birmingham?
Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD)
The decision to hold the FA cup final at 5.15 pm to allow more football fans to watch the game after their teams have played earlier in the day means that City and Wigan fans will struggle to get back by train. Does the Minister agree that the solution for the future is to reinstate the FA cup final as the showpiece game on the last day of the season, the week after the last round of the league games?
The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Hugh Robertson)
Everyone across the House will have been appalled by the scenes that we saw at Wembley last Saturday afternoon and early evening. Both the FA and the police are looking very carefully into what happened and the causes behind it. Clearly, kick-off times is one element of that. It would be wrong of anyone here to prejudge that investigation, not least because I am almost sure there will be a criminal element to it, but if any action needs to be taken, the hon. Gentleman has my assurance that that will take place.
Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)
T7. The BBC has committed to £300 million of broadband funding from the digital dividend post-2015, yet despite my repeated questions on the subject, the Minister has refused to say what will happen to that money or even if Broadband Delivery UK will continue to exist post-2015. Can he answer my question now or, if not, can he promise that the answer will be in the forthcoming communications White Paper?
Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con)
I recently visited the excellent Neon Play studios to see at first hand just how much potential there is in the video games industry. However, this is set to be hampered by the EU Commission investigating UK games tax relief, which has only just been secured after lobbying by the Minister and the industry representative, TIGA. Will the Minister stand up for our position?
Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab)
This week we have seen the re-emergence of soccer violence in the UK. As a result, hooligans will be banned, if convicted, from league grounds. They are now congregating in non-league grounds, where the banning orders do not apply. Will the Government look at extending banning orders to non-league grounds?
Hugh Robertson
I say again that no one in any part of the House would do anything other than condemn the scenes that we saw both on Saturday and again on Sunday. Incidentally, I do not think this marks a return to the bad old days of the 1970s and 1980s. Huge progress has been made but clearly there is an issue there and it is one that we need to address. We are awaiting the results of the investigations from the police and the football authorities. As I said in answer to an earlier question, if action needs to be taken, this Government will take it.
Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)
Will the Minister tell us what steps he is taking to ensure that consumers do not lose Freeview television reception as part of the 4G roll-out?
Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD)
1. What assessment she has made of the most recent statistics on differential earnings for women and men in the (a) public and (b) private sector.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Women and Equalities (Jo Swinson)
The gender pay gap is falling and currently stands at 19% in the public sector and 26% in the private sector. The causes of the gender pay gap are varied: roughly a third can be attributed to education and the types of jobs women do; about a third can be attributed to work patterns and the need to take time out of the labour market, for example for caring; and the remaining third is unexplained, which could include discrimination. The Government are committed to tackling the gender pay gap and believe that we absolutely need to get it down.
Simon Hughes
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for her commitment on this issue. More than one in five of the lowest paid full-time women workers earn under £80 a week, and it is much worse for women in low pay than it is for men. Will she indicate that the Government have that in their sights and have a strategy for dealing with inequality across the wage range, particularly for those struggling at the very bottom end of the income scale?
Jo Swinson
My right hon. Friend is right to raise that issue. Figures from the Office for National Statistics show that the gender pay gap is lowest for those at the lowest end, with a 7% gap in the bottom 10%, compared with a 23% gap in the top 10%, but there is absolutely no room for complacency. This week, as he will know, we announced a 1.9% increase in the national minimum wage, which is set against a 0.8% increase in wages, according to the most recent ONS statistics. Of course, two thirds of the beneficiaries of that rise in the national minimum wage will be women.
Sarah Champion (Rotherham) (Lab)
The Government’s report, “Think, Act, Report: one year on”, states that 54 organisations have signed up to the Government’s voluntary equality pay scheme. Given that there are 6,000 businesses in the UK that employ more than 250 people, does the Minister think that a 0.9% sign-up rate demonstrates sufficient voluntary progress on equal pay?
Jo Swinson
Clearly, we want to increase the number of organisations signed up to “Think, Act, Report”, but we have also been focusing on those that employ the largest number of workers. The current figures show that more than 80 organisations and large-scale employers have signed up, which represents 1.3 million employees. I think that is a key figure, because 1.3 million employees are now protected by companies that are ensuring that they not only consider what they need to do to tackle the pay gap, but act on it and, importantly, through transparency, report on what they have been doing.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
Section 78 of the Equality Act 2010 requires businesses that employ more than 250 people to measure and publish their gender pay gap figures. Will the Government implement that and, if not, what is the problem with doing so?
Jo Swinson
When the Government launched the “Think, Act, Report” initiative, we set out the fact that we believed it would be helpful if companies took a voluntary approach in pursuing this matter. Of course, we have not ruled out commencing that part of the 2010 Act at some future point, and we have also brought forward legislation—this measure is set out in the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill—that will force organisations found guilty of breaching equal pay laws to conduct equal pay audits. I think that there is a clear message to be sent to employers: they should get their house in order on equal pay, or the equal pay audits will be coming down the track.
Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con)
2. What recent progress she has made on helping women achieve their potential in the workplace.
The Minister for Women and Equalities (Maria Miller)
There are more women in work than ever before. Since the coalition Government came into office, 347,000 more women are in employment. We are supporting women to maintain their connection to the labour market, which will allow them to reach their potential in work. That is why we have announced the extension of the right to request flexible working to all by 2014 and the introduction of shared parental leave by 2015.
Margot James
In some workplaces women are dramatically under represented. According to the Institution of Engineering and Technology, just 6% of the engineering work force is female. What more can the Government do to influence the choices young girls make and to open their minds to the potential of a career in engineering?
Maria Miller
My hon. Friend is right. It is about choices, particularly the choices that young girls and women make in school and in higher education. That is why the National Careers Service has such an important role to play. We also need teachers to encourage young girls to take those subjects that can help them go into engineering, as well as all the work we are doing to modernise the workplace in order to keep them there.
Graeme Morrice (Livingston) (Lab)
The Government’s own equalities impact assessment on universal credit admits that the policy might encourage many second earners, who are usually women, to leave work and stay at home. Does the Minister agree that such a move would turn the clock back on women’s equality and undermine the role of women in the workplace?
Maria Miller
Absolutely not. Our work under universal credit to increase access to child care for women working fewer than 16 hours represents the first time that such support will be in place. We should be championing universal credit as a way of making sure that more women can stay connected to the labour market at a time when they also have caring responsibilities.
Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab)
Many working women lose out when they have a baby. Last month, a survey by the lawyers Slater & Gordon showed that more than one in seven women returning from maternity leave do not have a job to go back to, yet the Government are not even bothering to collect proper data on pregnancy-related redundancy. The Slater & Gordon research showed that two in five new mums were refused flexible hours and nearly half said that the job they had gone back to was less good than the one they had left. What are the Government doing to get a grip on pregnancy discrimination?
Maria Miller
I am sure that the hon. Lady will be pleased to know that I recently met many of those who are looking at the issue, which, like her, I take seriously. I want women not to have a false choice between having a family and staying in employment; they need to be able to do both. That is why by changing the culture in our workplaces so that businesses look at how they can accommodate women—not just in respect of their statutory duties, but more fully than that—we can make sure that women can not only have their family responsibilities, but continue in their jobs.
Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con)
3. What steps she is taking to increase the number of women in senior positions in business.
The Minister for Women and Equalities (Maria Miller)
The Government are supporting Lord Davies’s voluntary, business-led approach to improve the number of women on boards, which has resulted in an unprecedented increase to date. On top of that, our “Think, Act, Report” initiative encourages companies to take action and report on gender equality in the workplace, promoting greater transparency. More than 80 leading companies are signed up so far, representing more than 1.3 million employees.
Dr Coffey
I thank my right hon. Friend for that answer about an issue that we both believe to be important. A number of Government Members have undertaken an inquiry. Will my right hon. Friend be kind enough to meet us to discuss some of things that we have raised—such as unconscious bias training, which leading companies are giving as a matter of course to help more women get up the pipeline?
Maria Miller
My hon. Friend is absolutely right to say that such work can make all the difference in changing that culture in the workplace. I am aware of the Conservative Women’s Forum’s work in the area, and I applaud it. I would be delighted to meet her.
Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab)
The Secretary of State will know that the recent Cranfield report and the Davies progress report say that much more needs to be done. Does she agree with the Business Secretary, who says that there is a lack of progress and that quotas are a real possibility?
Maria Miller
The Business Secretary and I helped to launch the most recent update on Lord Davies’s report. Both of us noted how much progress had been made. However, the hon. Lady is right to say that there is still much more to be done, whether in FTSE 100 or FTSE 250 firms. However, the House should note that considerable progress has been made under the Government—progress that was not forthcoming before.
Gloria De Piero (Ashfield) (Lab)
The message that we send from this place is important. Some 32 Ministers are entitled to attend Cabinet meetings, but just five are women. Will the Secretary of State join me in urging the Prime Minister to put the situation right?
Maria Miller
The hon. Lady will know that the Government are absolutely committed to the importance of equality and fairness and of getting more women involved, not just at the top of our organisations but throughout them. What we and other parties are doing is making sure that we develop that pipeline of great women to take those positions in future.
Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con)
4. What steps she is taking to prevent women from becoming victims of human trafficking.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Women and Equalities (Mrs Helen Grant)
Raising awareness with potential victims in source countries and training front-line professionals in the UK are key to our work in identifying and preventing the exploitation of potential victims of all ages, genders and nationalities.
Mr Burrowes
Given the shocking statistic that British girls trafficked for sexual exploitation make up nearly half of all modern-day slavery victims in the UK, what voice and help is the Minister giving those voiceless and helpless girls?
Mrs Grant
The Government recognise that, sadly, trafficking can and does occur in the UK. The inter-departmental ministerial group on human trafficking brings together all parts of the Government and raises awareness of trafficking, which can affect boys and men in addition to women and girls, across the UK. The group also highlights the tailored support available through the Government’s contact with the Salvation Army. The police are also doing a great deal of very good work to tackle trafficking.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
Will the Minister talk to the Chairman of the Home Affairs Committee about how women who are terrified of publicity could give evidence to Select Committees in confidence that they will not be named and identified?
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
I think the Minister is being a little reticent. She perhaps forgot to say that on Monday the Prime Minister is opening an exhibition about human trafficking and the hidden number of slaves in our constituencies. Will the Minister welcome the Prime Minister’s intervention? It would be good if she did.
Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)
The Minister will be aware that many women who are victims of human trafficking, instead of being given the support they need, end up being prosecuted or having action taken against them under immigration rules. What assessment have the Government made of the suggestion by the Centre for Social Justice in its report last month that there should be a modern slavery Act that outlines an obligation to investigate indicators of slavery so that when there is a suggestion that there has been human trafficking, it is investigated rather than people being prosecuted?
Mrs Grant
It sounds like a very interesting report. I have not yet read it in detail, but I certainly will, and I will look at what the hon. Lady said. Our aim, at the end of the day, is to tackle this terrible issue at source. It is an abhorrent crime. We want to work smarter at our borders, have better law enforcement, and make sure that people do not become victims.
Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)
5. What assessment she has made of the cumulative effect of the Government’s policies on disabled people.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Esther McVey)
The Government provide equality analysis of policy changes routinely, as required by the Equality Act 2010. It is not possible to publish a robust cumulative impact assessment separately for disabled people because a number of overlapping reforms are continuing until 2017-18. The caseload is dynamic, and, as under the previous Government, the data are limited. The previous Government did not do it because they did not want to put out incorrect information, and neither do we.
Bill Esterson
Let me tell the Minister about a constituent of mine. He was assessed as fit for work after being disabled for 12 years as a result of a degenerative disease. While he appeals, he loses £25 a week in benefits. He has now lost a further £14.71 a week through the bedroom tax and £34 a month as a result of the council tax reduction scheme. That is over £200 a month in total. Like thousands of people with disabilities—
Mr Speaker
Order. I am sorry, but we are very pressed for time. I need a quick question with a question mark at the end of it—a sentence.
Bill Esterson
Does not my constituent’s example show that it is time the Government admitted they have got it wrong about the impact on disabled people?
Esther McVey
I would like to refresh the hon. Gentleman’s memory about a couple of points. The work capability assessment was brought in under the previous Government, and we are trying to get it right. Equally, the cumulative impact on housing under the previous Government shows that 1.8 million people were left on waiting lists, a quarter of a million people were in overcrowded housing, and the housing bill doubled. The intention of our cumulative impact is to get it right.
Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con)
Virtue is not found solely in the amount of money that is spent. Does the Minister agree that it is as important to enable disabled people to fulfil their aspirations and live fully in society as it is to focus on financial payments to a proportion of them?
Esther McVey
I completely agree with my hon. Friend, who does so much in this area. This is about fulfilling potential, protecting the most vulnerable, and helping those who would like to get into work. The budget remains at £50 billion, which is a fifth higher than the average in Europe, over double that in America, and six times more than in Japan. We are world leaders and I am proud of our record.
Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab)
The Minister’s answer to the question illustrates why we need a cumulative impact assessment. She said that it is a dynamic, changing situation. A huge amount of reform is coming in, and that is exactly why we must have a cumulative impact assessment.
Esther McVey
I agree on certain points, but I want to ensure that correct and robust information is handed out and, for the reasons I have given, that is not possible. We do not want to trade in inaccurate information. Our intention is to ensure that we support the most vulnerable people, and that is exactly what we are doing.
Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) (Lab)
Two thirds of families hit by the bedroom tax are disabled, according to the Minister’s own figures, and for many of them there is nowhere to move to. In Wakefield district, 5,600 households are being hit by the bedroom tax, there are fewer than 200 smaller homes available, and Wakefield and District Housing estimates that it will take seven years to re-house everyone. It is even more difficult for disabled families, because most of the homes do not have disabled access. The discretionary housing fund will not help all of those families. Why do not the Minister and all her colleagues stop hiding behind the nonsense in their briefing papers and go out and hear from the families who are being hit? They have nowhere to go and no way to pay. What does she tell them to do now?
Esther McVey
I listened carefully to the right hon. Lady. The discretionary payments, which we have trebled, are going to the right people. We need to make sure that local authorities are very clear in what they do. We have also exempted pensioners, and if a disabled child cannot sleep in the same room as another child, that room will be exempted. Rather than making inaccurate comments and perpetuating myths, the right hon. Lady should get her facts right and get behind the reforms that we are making to replace the mess that she left behind.
Business of the House
(11 years ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab)
Will the Leader of the House give us the business for next week?
The Leader of the House of Commons (Mr Andrew Lansley)
The business for next week is as follows:
Monday 22 April—Consideration of Lords amendments to the Public Service Pensions Bill, followed by consideration of Lords amendments to the Crime and Courts Bill [Lords], followed by remaining stages of the Partnerships (Prosecution) (Scotland) Bill [Lords], followed by a motion relating to section 5 of the European Communities (Amendment) Act 1993.
Tuesday 23 April—If necessary, consideration of Lords amendments, followed by Opposition day [unallotted half day]. There will be a debate on Northern Ireland. The debate will arise on an Opposition motion, followed by, if necessary, consideration of Lords amendments.
Wednesday 24 April—If necessary, consideration of Lords amendments, followed by Opposition day [unallotted half day]. There will be a debate on the Agriculture Wages Board. The debate will arise on an Opposition motion, followed by, if necessary, consideration of Lords amendments.
Thursday 25 April—If necessary, consideration of Lords amendments, followed by a motion to approve a statutory instrument relating to banks and banking, followed by a motion to approve a European document relating to railways, followed by, if necessary, consideration of Lords amendments.
The date and time for the prorogation of Parliament will be set once the progress of business is certain.
Ms Eagle
I thank the Leader of the House for announcing next week’s possibly full business timetable.
Yesterday we marked the end of an era with the funeral of Margaret Thatcher and our thoughts are with those who knew and loved her. I rarely agreed with her, but she did break the existing political and economic consensus and I think it is time that we did so again.
We are now entering the final hectic days of this parliamentary Session—if necessary. Next Wednesday it will be five weeks since the Prime Minister was last held to account in this House. Given the likely timing of Prorogation and the state opening on 8 May, it is possible that he will have to be answerable here again only twice before June. Does the Leader of the House agree that this is a completely unacceptable state of affairs? What will he do to ensure that this House stops conveniently going into recess on Tuesdays, thereby letting the Prime Minister off the PMQ hook?
On Tuesday the Communities and Local Government Secretary got himself into a right old pickle with his chaotic plans for a free market free-for-all in conservatory construction. With Labour, Liberal Democrats and Tories uniting against him, he was forced to hint at an unspecified concession, but in the damning words of the right hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham (Mrs Gillan), his colleague around the Cabinet table for two years,
“we will not believe what”
the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government says
“until we see the proposals in black and white.”—[Official Report, 16 April 2013; Vol. 561, c. 196.]
Will the Leader of the House clarify what this mysterious concession might be, or cannot this incompetent Government even organise a concession in a conservatory?
Ms Eagle
I suspect that the Patronage Secretary has got a few conservatories of his own.
For 60 years, the Agricultural Wages Board has protected vulnerable rural workers from exploitation at the hands of rich landowners, but on Tuesday, without so much as a hint of debate or a vote on the Floor of the House, the Government abolished it. This transfers £240 million from workers in some of the toughest and lowest-paid jobs in rural England directly into the back pockets of their employers. It is a disgrace that such a crucial protection can be removed without so much as a vote or even debate in the democratically elected House. It will take our Opposition day debate for the arguments to be heard, but rural workers protections have already been destroyed. It is clear from the parliamentary timetable that the Government could have made time for the issue to be debated properly. Anyone would think that the Prime Minister was trying to avoid business running on until Wednesdays.
In 28 of the 31 weeks that the Health Secretary has been in the job, England’s major accident and emergency units have missed the target for treating patients within four hours, but at the same time he has handed £2.2 billion of NHS funds back to the Treasury. Will the Leader of the House arrange for an urgent statement on how Ministers will bring all accident and emergency departments in England back up to the national standards they set? Despite being forced to backtrack once already, the Health Secretary persists with his damaging section 75 regulations, which will effectively privatise the NHS by the back door. The Lords will debate them next Wednesday, so will the Leader of the House tell us when we will debate them in the Commons?
Following the Budget, the International Monetary Fund this week again slashed the UK growth forecast and agreed with us that the Chancellor needs to change course. A year ago, it predicted growth of 2%, but that has now dropped to just 0.7%. Unemployment is rising, real wages are falling and borrowing is shooting through the roof, but the Chancellor’s only growth strategy seems to be to destroy rights at work. When will he get real and admit that his plan is just not working? Our downgraded Chancellor has been busy trying to be a man of the people, attempting to distract attention from his huge tax cut for millionaires by dropping his aitches in a speech at Morrisons—and he was not even very good at that. With a failing economic strategy, a faltering legislative programme and a Government adrift, will the Leader of the House tell the Chancellor that we need a change of course, not a change of accent?
Mr Lansley
I am grateful to the shadow Leader of the House, particularly for her gracious good wishes to those of us who knew Margaret Thatcher well. Many of us at her funeral service at St Paul’s cathedral yesterday were tempted to think it the end of an era, but we realised that that was not the case at all—it simply marked her passing. It was a very personal event, a funeral service, and even with the national and international presence, it did not represent the end of an era. It was a reflection of the character of Margaret Thatcher. I hope that that persists and that we all understand the importance of values and principles and of seeing them through to completion.
The hon. Lady asked about the Prime Minister’s response to questions in the House. The Prime Minister is assiduous in his attendance in, and support for, the House and in responding to questions. The number of statements made and questions he answers in response to them is unprecedented compared with his predecessors, and of course she neglected to observe that on 8 May, on the state opening of Parliament, the Prime Minister will open the debate on the Gracious Speech.
The hon. Lady talked about permitted development rights. She would not expect me to anticipate at business questions what will be a further debate in the other place on the Growth and Infrastructure Bill, but under the circumstances I thought my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government did what was right. We know how important it is, through the extension of permitted development rights, to give people an opportunity—this carries through the principle of localism—to develop their own homes. This is not something we should disparage; it is something we should support, and it will have the additional benefit of supporting growth in many communities. We just want to ensure, recognising the debate in the House, that we do so in a way that recognises where concerns arise.
On forthcoming business, the Opposition have taken the opportunity to schedule a debate on the Agricultural Wages Board next week and we will debate it then.
On A and E waiting times, the hon. Lady raises a point that I have heard my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health respond to, but I am sure he will take further opportunities to do so. She should look—and perhaps talk to her hon. Friends in Scotland and Wales—and recognise that this has nothing to do with the character of the targets set. The targets were set at 95% on clinical advice—quite appropriately—but A and E departments are coming under a range of pressures during the course of a very severe winter. The situation in England is not different from that in Scotland and Wales; in fact, if anything, the pressures and resulting delays in treatment are greater in Wales and Scotland. Although she is not here at the moment, her right hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd) will have an Adjournment debate next week precisely to raise these issues.
Finally, the shadow Leader of the House talked about the IMF. When she looks at what the IMF has had to say, she will see that it is clear that there is considerable scope for optimism across the world, although there are substantial problems in Europe. We as a country are very exposed to those problems; none the less, according to the IMF we are anticipated to have higher growth rates in the year ahead than Germany or France. We also have employment levels that are considerably better and unemployment rates that are considerably lower than the average across the eurozone. I think she should express support for that, rather than seek to disparage this country’s economic performance.
Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)
May we have a statement on the case of Mr Haroon Aswat? This man is a suspected terrorist who the British courts have decided must be deported, not to some war-torn failed state, but to the United States of America. Now the European Court of Human Rights has decided that it is apparently not safe to deport him to America. If America is not considered a safe and suitable destination for deportees, that raises the question: where on earth is considered safe and suitable?
Mr Lansley
The House will have heard what my hon. Friend has had to say. The Government are of course disappointed that the European Court of Human Rights found that extradition to America would breach Haroon Aswat’s human rights. That judgment does not become final for three months. My colleagues at the Home Office are considering as a matter of urgency all the legal options that are available. They include whether we request a referral of the case to the Court’s Grand Chamber. Given that, I hope the House will understand that I cannot comment further on the case at this time.
Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab)
As we are coming to the end of the Session and the end of the Session for this Backbench Business Committee, may I take this opportunity on behalf of every member of the Committee to thank all Back Benchers who have brought us ideas for debates, which have always been interesting and have frequently been entertaining?
Mr Lansley
I share the hon. Lady’s view. In these seven months that I have had the privilege to be Leader of the House, I have had the opportunity to see the Backbench Business Committee at work. It has been a positive reform in this Parliament and it continues to improve and strengthen its position. I note that Andreas Whittam Smith talked in The Independent this morning about what he regarded as a revitalisation of Back-Bench power in this House. That is due not least to the work of the Backbench Business Committee, and I am glad that we have had the opportunity to support it.
Chris White (Warwick and Leamington) (Con)
Next week, Keith and Frances Smith of Warwick Books will present a petition to Downing street on the amount of corporation tax paid by Amazon. They want to ensure that there is a level playing field between multinational businesses and small businesses such as theirs. As part of that, all businesses must pay their fair share of taxation. The petition has been signed by over 100,000 people. Will the Leader of the House consider allocating time for a debate to ensure a fair tax system for all UK businesses?
Mr Lansley
Yes, I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making those points. He will have noted that, in a debate yesterday, the general anti-abuse provision was discussed, which is a very important provision. What I would say reflects what the Chancellor of the Exchequer said earlier in the year. We are concerned to pursue a twin track: to continue to reduce corporation tax, as the Chancellor set out in the Budget, so that we are highly competitive among international economies; and to promote and support enterprise and growth. We recognise that one of the most important ways to make the corporation tax reduction possible is to minimise evasion, reduce avoidance and tackle abuse. That is what the Government are doing. The more we can achieve that, the more we can ensure that the tax take is what it ought to be and reduce the rates of tax.
Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab)
Has the right hon. Gentleman seen early-day motion 1199, in my name and those of other hon. Members?
[That this House expresses its disgust with and condemnation of Global Vision College, Manchester and its staff member Sunny Gilani, for stealing £1,500 in fees from an applicant who paid them this money, was unable to obtain a visa to the UK to take up a place at the college, asked for her money to be returned and has not received it despite several letters sent to the college by the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton; warns prospective students to have nothing to do with these swindlers; calls on Greater Manchester Police to investigate this larceny; and calls on the Home Secretary to investigate the validity of this college in being able to recruit overseas students.]
Global Vision college has stolen £1,500 in advance fees from a niece of a most trusted constituent of mine who could not get a visa to come here from Pakistan. Despite prolonged correspondence from me, the college has refused to return the money. Will the Leader of the House be kind enough to warn all potential students to steer clear of these thieves and ask the Home Office to investigate whether such an institution should have the right to have overseas students?
Mr Lansley
I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will forgive me that, although I read the Order Paper assiduously, as he would expect, I have not particularly taken note of early-day motion 1199. I will of course read it and bring it to the attention of Ministers at the Home Office. I know that he is very careful in pursuit of his constituents’ interests, and I will encourage Home Office Ministers to investigate the matter further.
Simon Kirby (Brighton, Kemptown) (Con)
Is my right hon. Friend aware of Brighton and Hove city council’s proposal to install safe drug consumption rooms in the city? Have the Government been consulted by the council on the matter? May we have time for either a statement or a debate on that important issue?
Mr Lansley
We have not seen any detailed proposals. It is important to say that the Government will not support any actions that contravene the United Nations drugs conventions or the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971. Permitting premises to be used for consuming or possessing substances controlled under section 8 of the Act is illegal. As I say, we have not seen detailed proposals. The establishment or operation of drug injection rooms risks encouraging illicit trafficking and carries a significant risk of harm in local communities.
Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab)
May we have a debate in Government time on the future arrangements for the funerals of ex-Prime Ministers, given the fact that we have spent extravagantly— £10 million or £20 million—on Mrs Thatcher’s funeral? May we have a debate on future rules for future Prime Ministers, and can the Government publish all the detailed costs to aid that debate?
Mr Lansley
The hon. Gentleman should know that matters of this kind are inappropriate for public debate, but that does not mean that they are not the subject of—[Interruption.] The preparations for future funerals are not a fit subject for public debate, but they are the subject of detailed consideration, as were the arrangements for Baroness Thatcher’s funeral over a substantial period. I do not recognise the figures he mentioned; I have no knowledge of any basis for figures of that kind. We have made it clear that the figures will be substantially below what he mentioned and they will of course be published in due course. All the arrangements relating to Baroness Thatcher’s funeral seemed to me entirely appropriate and fitting in the circumstances.
Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD)
Section 68 on page 21 of the General Medical Council’s “Good Medical Practice” states:
“You must be honest and trustworthy in all your communication with patients and colleagues. This means you must make clear the limits of your knowledge and make reasonable checks to make sure any information you give is accurate.”
Sir Bruce Keogh, the medical director of the NHS, failed to abide by that duty in his decision to suspend children’s heart surgery at the Leeds general infirmary. When are we going to get a statement from the Secretary of State for Health that will finally announce a proper investigation into this fiasco?
Mr Lansley
I do not agree with my hon. Friend in relation to Sir Bruce Keogh. I think that he acted as anybody, objectively, would believe he should have done when in receipt of that information, in order to take a precautionary approach while trying to establish all the facts and to put patient safety first.
On my hon. Friend’s question about a statement, I know that he was here in his place when my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health responded to an urgent question on Monday. My right hon. Friend answered questions at that point, as well as making it clear that he would be willing to do so again in the future.
Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op)
My constituent Richard Freeman has not seen his son in six years, since his ex-wife abducted him and went to live in America. Despite numerous British court orders stating that his son should be returned to him, his ex-wife has refused to comply. Government figures show that instances of parental child abduction have risen by 88% over the past decade. May we have an urgent debate on this rapidly growing problem? What steps can be taken to ensure that parents can be reunited with their children?
Mr Lansley
I know that Members across the House will have encountered cases similar to the one that the hon. Lady raises. They are very distressing and cause immense harm to families. Ministers are well aware of this issue, but I will of course ensure that my hon. Friends respond to her on this case. I do not recall this matter being debated recently, so she and colleagues across the House might like to ascertain whether a suitable opportunity could be found for an Adjournment or Back-Bench debate, as I know many Members are concerned about it.
John Glen (Salisbury) (Con)
Two of my constituents recently contacted me about a loophole that allowed the Bank of Ireland to raise the differential rate on their mortgage, leading to a 200% increase. The Financial Services Authority argued that it could do nothing about it, as it had happened before 2004. Will the Leader of the House make time for a statement from the Treasury so that we can find out what can be done about this?
Mr Lansley
My hon. Friend raises an important point. As he suggested, such cases are the responsibility of what is now the Financial Conduct Authority, and he will know that Martin Wheatley, the chief executive of the FCA, has exchanged correspondence on the matter with the Chair of the Treasury Select Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Chichester (Mr Tyrie). Those letters have been published on the parliamentary website. Mr Wheatley states:
“We currently have no plans to treat this as a prima facie case of mis-selling.”
In the case of the constituent of my hon. Friend the Member for Salisbury (John Glen), the FCA appears to cite the fact that the mortgages originated before such mortgages were included in the scope of regulation in 2004, and that to address the issue would require retrospective legislation. My hon. Friend will understand that we could consider that only in the most exceptional circumstances. However, I understand that the Bank of Ireland has waived early repayment charges for customers affected by the changes. That might mean that his constituents will be able to find a more competitive rate elsewhere.
Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab)
The new director-general of the BBC took up his post at the beginning of April. The BBC is of course independent of the Government, but is it not time to have a debate in Government time to remind the BBC of its regional responsibilities and of the fact that there should be some correlation between the licence fees raised in certain regions and the amount of programmes commissioned in those regions?
Mr Lansley
The hon. Lady makes a point that I know is important to Members, and I do not know whether she had the chance to raise it with Ministers at Culture, Media and Sport questions a few minutes ago. I cannot at this stage promise any business in this Session—we are looking at business in the next one—but it would probably not be appropriate for the Government to raise the matter that she mentions, save, further on, as part of the debate leading to the renewal of the BBC’s charter. However, she might find opportunities elsewhere in the House to debate the issue.
Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)
Very graciously, you, Mr Speaker, came to my constituency last week to open the first London office of the Silver Star Appeal diabetes trust, and later that week I handed over a Ladbrokes cheque to St Luke’s hospice as a result of a grand national bet I had placed. To my horror, I discovered that mean-minded Harrow council has removed discretionary rate relief from all charities in Harrow, as a result of which St Luke’s hospice alone will lose £17,000 a year. May we have a debate on the operation of non-domestic rate relief by local authorities, as we try to build a big society in which charities can provide services that the public sector does not?
Mr Lansley
I am glad my hon. Friend raises that point, because I think it will be of concern to Members across the House. In all our constituencies we look to local authorities to exercise their community responsibilities. That is particularly the case at present, as local authorities have growth incentives that they can use to support not only enterprise locally but important community facilities. I therefore hope what my hon. Friend has said will be heard not only in this House but in the chamber of his council.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
I am sure both you, Mr Speaker, and the Leader of the House will agree that the future of our country depends greatly on entrepreneurs, entrepreneurship and business start-ups, and that many small businesses have been ill served by the banking sector in this country over a number of years. Is the Leader of the House aware that many small business start-ups are now using crowd financing for funding? That is a new way of regenerating our economies and communities, but is he also aware that the Financial Conduct Authority will introduce a regulation on that in about three weeks’ time—on 14 May, I think? Only a very small number of people have been consulted on it. People with crowd funding expertise in relation to start-up businesses have not been consulted, and neither has this House been consulted on a measure that is vital to the future of enterprise.
Mr Lansley
I completely endorse what the hon. Gentleman says about the importance of start-ups, and in the last year for which figures are available more new businesses were created in this country than in any of the previous 20 years. It is important that we continue to support start-ups, however, and the availability of finance is central to the success of new businesses. I am aware that new businesses are increasingly using crowd financing and other innovative sources of funding, although I was not aware of the details relating to any FCA regulation. I will ask my hon. Friends at the Treasury to write to the hon. Gentleman about that, and to let us know about the processes for the scrutiny of any such regulation.
Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)
Has my right hon. Friend seen my early-day motion 1282 on the rights of Tesco workers in Harlow?
[That this House notes that whilst Tesco has stated that it has no plans to re-open its Harlow site at a future date, there is evidence from the USDAW trade union that Tesco gave the same assurances when it shut the Feny Lock plant, which was later reopened with workers on lower pay; regrets therefore that many Harlow workers are now facing redundancy and, despite promises of support, many are still without jobs to go to; further regrets that Tesco's corporate pay protection policy appears only to apply to certain elements of salary rather than to total compensation; therefore urges Tesco to explain why managers from the closing Harlow plant will be able to move to the Dagenham plant with full terms and conditions, but that this is being denied to Harlow workers; and further urges the company to allow its Harlow workers to move across to the Dagenham plant with their full existing level of pay.]
My right hon. Friend will be aware that Tesco is closing a distribution centre in Harlow, which will affect 800 jobs in my constituency, including those of many members of the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers. Despite promises of pay protection, in reality workers are facing losses of up to one third of their income if they move to the new Dagenham site, and for many that will be unaffordable. May we have an urgent debate on workers’ rights, so that Parliament can consider how to stop big corporations maltreating their workers?
Mr Lansley
I agree with my hon. Friend, and I know he has been working very hard to support his constituents who are affected by this. The centre is not far from my constituency, so I know about what is happening, and other Members, including the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr Skinner), have concerns about similar issues. Jobcentre Plus is supporting those at risk of redundancy at the centre. Given my hon. Friend’s views and the concerns of other Members and of this House on this important matter, he might like to consider seeking, if not in this Session then early in the next one, a debate on the Adjournment.
Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab)
The hon. Member for Winchester (Steve Brine) introduced a welcome debate in Westminster Hall yesterday on the impact of police cautions on young people in their later years, to which the Minister responded constructively. The debate also threw up wider issues such as how Criminal Records Bureau disclosures of cautions and minor convictions are blighting people’s lives years and decades later—and there were similar impacts on candidates of all parties during the police and crime commissioner elections. May we have an early debate to encourage Ministers to propose early action to put a stop to this unfair and discriminatory practice?
Mr Lansley
I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman has raised that matter and to hear that the Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice gave a constructive and positive response. If I may, I will check with my right hon. and hon. Friends at the Home Office and my hon. Friend the Member for Winchester (Steve Brine) about when there might be a further opportunity for Home Office Ministers to tell us more about their views on the matter.
Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)
May we have a statement on the effectiveness of the amendments to the Scrap Metal Dealers Act 1964 that came into effect two months ago? The House will recall that the amendments made it a criminal offence for metal dealers to pay in cash for scrap. Initial figures from Leicestershire police show a pleasing 47% decrease in the incidence of metal theft across the county. That will be a great relief to churches and others in my constituency who have been targeted repeatedly by metal thieves.
Mr Lansley
I am grateful to my hon. Friend and other Members, especially my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South (Richard Ottaway). The Scrap Metal Dealers Act 2013 will create a robust new licensing regime that will further restrict the market for stolen metals. My hon. Friend is right that we are making progress. The Association of Chief Police Officers estimates that there has been a 38% reduction in recorded metal theft offences. Likewise, Network Rail and the Energy Networks Association report a big reduction. This is an important matter not only to churches, but, as I know from my constituency, to villages that have had their communications completely cut off, in some cases a number of times, because of the theft of metal from the networks. We are taking action, not least with the benefit of that private Member’s Bill.
Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)
May we have a debate on the Chancellor’s policies and his failure to ensure that banks support small and medium-sized businesses? A company wrote to me recently, saying that
“we keep hearing on the news that the government want to see SMEs growing stronger. How can this happen if SMEs do not get financial support from their banks.”
Mr Lansley
The hon. Gentleman is an experienced Member of the House and will no doubt have taken the opportunity to raise those issues in the debate on the Finance Bill. I draw to his attention what my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills said recently about the launch of the business bank, which will deliver billions of pounds of additional support through lending to businesses.
Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
My right hon. Friend the Leader of the House will notice that future business includes a motion on draft regulations under the Reservoirs Act 1975 that are to be considered shortly by the relevant Statutory Instrument Committee. It is an integral and essential part of those regulations that the safety guidance for reservoirs recommended by the Institution of Civil Engineers be approved and released by the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. A number of projects that are in the pipeline, such as the reservoir project in my own Pickering area, are dependent on that advice, which has been awaited since 2010. May I make an urgent request for the Secretary of State to come to the Dispatch Box to give the reasons for that delay or to publish that guidance forthwith?
Mr Lansley
I will, of course, ask my colleagues at DEFRA about the matter that my hon. Friend rightly raises and seek a response for her as soon as possible.
Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
BBC Radio Humberside reported this morning on fake internet job adverts that claim to be for companies such as B & Q. They ask for personal details, such as bank account details, and money for Criminal Records Bureau checks up front. With people desperate for work in Hull, some may fall prey to such scams. Please may we have a debate on how we can raise awareness of this issue and go after these criminals who are preying on my constituents?
Mr Lansley
That is a very important point. I will talk to my right hon. and hon. Friends, not least at the Department for Work and Pensions, who I hope are aware of what the hon. Lady has described through their Jobcentre Plus network, to see what action they and local authorities can take.
Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con)
May I say how much I am looking forward to welcoming you to Plymouth tomorrow, Mr Speaker, to meet HMS Heroes and members of the Youth Parliament?
Does my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House agree that there is only one word to say about yesterday’s funeral of Baroness Thatcher, and that that is “Britannia”?
Mr Lansley
In St Paul’s cathedral, where so many heroes of this country are memorialised, I thought yesterday that we were taking our leave not only of a woman who inspired many and achieved so much, but of the first woman Prime Minister. She will figure high among great Britons in future.
Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab)
Yet another deadline has come and gone for the award of the Thameslink rolling stock contract, and there have been at least 10 similar deadlines. The original decision to award the contract was made in June 2011. May we have a debate in Government time to discuss the failings of the Department for Transport and its inability to award this Thameslink contract?
Mr Lansley
I cannot promise time at the moment, but the hon. Gentleman will note that my hon. Friends from the Department for Transport will answer questions on Thursday 25 April, which might be an appropriate point. In the meantime I will check with them to see whether there is anything on which they can further update the hon. Gentleman.
Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con)
The main rail route into Cleethorpes has been closed since 9 February following a landslip at Hatfield near Doncaster. In the short term, the most important thing is to restore services, but in the longer term there are concerns about the safety and monitoring of the spoil tips. Will the Leader of the House arrange for a statement outlining the responsibilities of the various regulatory agencies and the frequencies of inspections?
Mr Lansley
I am grateful to my hon. Friend because that is an important issue for those in north Lincolnshire. I reiterate my point about Transport questions next Thursday because he will clearly want to raise that issue if possible. I will also contact my hon. Friends because I know they will want to take action on this issue and provide reassurances as soon as they can.
Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab)
May we have a debate on the NHS in London in the light of the review of health services in London published by Imperial college this week? In the foreword, Ruth Carnall—the former chief executive of the NHS in London—makes it clear that when the Leader of House was Secretary of State for Health he was wrong to halt the reforms in 2010, including “A Picture of Health” in my area of south-east London, and that there were consequences for patients as a direct result of his decision. Such a debate would give him an opportunity to apologise to my constituents for the serious problems caused in south-east London as a result of that decision.
Mr Lansley
I have not seen the foreword by Ruth Carnall, but it is clear that at the last election “A Picture of Health” was wholly opposed by very large parts of the community in south-east London. People voted against it and for a Government who would not put up with it—we were clear about instituting a moratorium on that so that we could proceed with more rational proposals that would deliver more secure and sustainable services for patients. That is what is happening in south-east London as a consequence of the use of legislation passed by the previous Government but never used, to institute a special administration regime.
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
The shadow Leader of the House mentioned the frequency of Prime Minister’s questions. My recollection is that it was Tony Blair who moved to holding it on one day a week rather than two. When she was here, Mrs Thatcher loved this place, this mother of Parliaments, and she would come twice a week to answer Prime Minister’s questions. Would it be a fitting tribute to her for the Leader of the House to make a statement next week, reinstating Prime Minister’s questions twice a week?
Mr Lansley
I am in favour of paying tribute to Mrs Thatcher in very many ways, but that is probably not one of them.
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
The hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) is naughty because he knows perfectly well that this is not the mother of Parliaments. He is, however, right on one point: because of the Government’s jiggery-pokery, the Prime Minister will answer Prime Minister’s questions only four times in 12 weeks. Even worse, the Chancellor will probably not answer Treasury questions until three whole months have passed since the Budget. The first Treasury questions is likely to be on 18 or 25 June. We could solve all that if the Government fulfilled their promise to bring in a House business committee by the third year of this Parliament. We were generous and allowed that not to be by the beginning of the third year—that is what we all thought the logic meant—but we are now at the end of the third year. I presume that we could use the week after next just to introduce that legislation.
Mr Lansley
As far as I could see, the House was happy when I published a calendar for the year ahead last October. Most of the issues the hon. Gentleman raises are a simple consequence of that calendar. In so far as they are not, they appear to be the consequence of his engaging in speculation about the date of Prorogation. The date of Prorogation, of course, has not been set.
Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)
Sheep farmers in upland areas of Britain have suffered unprecedented disaster as a result of recent snowfalls. Today’s written statement by the Minister with responsibility for agriculture, my hon. Friend the Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr Heath), is welcome, and I have just learned that I have secured an Adjournment debate on this matter next Tuesday. Will the Leader of the House encourage hon. Members who want to represent the people who are suffering in their communities to attend that debate, where their contributions will be very welcome?
Mr Lansley
Many people across the country, including those who live far from the upland areas where sheep farming is pursued, will none the less have felt distressed about what happened to hill farmers and their sheep. I declare an interest, as my sister-in-law is responsible for sheep farming in a part of north Wales. Many people living in my hon. Friend’s part of north Wales have been particularly hard hit, and I am glad that my hon. Friend the agriculture Minister was able to announce details of additional support today. I hope Members will support my hon. Friend’s Adjournment debate next week. This would demonstrate not only that practical support will be available to those affected, but that a great deal of shared feeling exists about the circumstances that have hit these people so hard.
Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)
We had a Westminster Hall debate in March on the Foreign Office’s report on its human rights work in 2011. It was frustrating because we had only 90 minutes to discuss the report on all aspects of its human rights work. The 2012 report was published just this week. Will the Leader of the House look at whether we can have a full day’s debate on that report on the Floor of the House? Will he talk to the Select Committee Chair and the Government about that, so that we do not end up discussing this report in March 2014—with a two-year time lag?
Mr Lansley
I shall, if I may, talk to my colleagues in the Foreign Office and to the Chairman of the Foreign Affairs Select Committee. If I recall correctly, the debate arose in Westminster Hall, following a Select Committee report. This is more properly a matter for the Select Committee and the Liaison Committee first, and I shall of course discuss it with them.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
Across the nation, some 70,000 disabled wheelchair-bound children are awaiting the right wheelchair to enable them to lead full and active childhoods with as much independence as possible. The Leader of the House will know that the charity Whizz-Kidz does much excellent work in providing such wheelchairs to children in Kettering and across the country. May we have a statement from the Secretary of State for Health on how charities such as Whizz-Kidz can take best advantage of the NHS reforms to get the right wheelchairs to the right children as quickly as possible?
Mr Lansley
I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I had the privilege of speaking at the reception for Whizz-Kidz in the later part of last year. I saw how it takes the opportunity to put children in the right wheelchair in a day, bringing fantastic improvements in the availability of the right wheelchair support for children. It is precisely because of that sort of evidence of how charities, as well as private sector organisations, can add value to the NHS that the section 75 regulations are going through as they are. They are not about privatising services; they do not do any privatisation: what they do is give those responsible for commissioning these services the opportunity to look at how they can deliver the best possible service to their patients.
Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab)
North Cheshire hospitals are set to lose hundreds of posts, yet the Department of Health is paying £2.2 billion back to the Treasury and is spending millions on a totally unnecessary reorganisation. May we therefore have a debate on the competence of the Department of Health, which is hitting front-line services while not spending its full budget?
Mr Lansley
I was Secretary of State for Health, so I understand the position. The NHS quite properly recorded a surplus for the previous year, amounting to about £1.6 billion. However, there is a distinction to be drawn between the availability of resources within the NHS and Government financial accounting for the Department of Health as a whole. What happened—and I think it is reflected in what has happened this year—was that a surplus in the Department was not spent during the financial year and was therefore once more available to the Treasury; but that does not mean that the Department did not ensure that the NHS organisations with the surpluses would continue to have access to them in future years.
Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con)
Next Thursday, theoretically, I shall initiate an end-of-day debate about the appalling human rights situation in Burma. It is particularly appalling for the Rohingya people, who are being slaughtered daily. The European Union will decide on Monday whether to end sanctions against Burma. May we have an early statement to confirm that, while approving of political reform, the EU does not approve of ethnic cleansing in Burma?
Mr Lansley
I know that the issue raised by my hon. Friend is causing concern throughout the House. The British Government regularly raise our human rights concerns with the Burmese Government, and both the Foreign Secretary and Baroness Warsi did so this week during meetings with members of a visiting Burmese Government delegation. We have always said that when serious crimes have been committed, those who have perpetrated them must be held accountable for their actions.
If my hon. Friend were to catch your eye, Mr. Speaker, he might have an opportunity to raise the issue during Foreign and Commonwealth Office questions on Tuesday, and, given the business that I have announced, I personally imagine that he will have an opportunity to initiate his debate on Thursday.
Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab)
May we have a debate on access to NHS data? On Tuesday, I was told in a written answer that information on A and E waiting times at Trafford general hospital was not available, but I have subsequently learnt that it is. On Tuesday, during health questions, the Under-Secretary of State for Health, the hon. Member for Central Suffolk and North Ipswich (Dr Poulter), agreed to meet me and parliamentary neighbours to discuss the situation. Will the Leader of the House help to expedite that meeting?
Mr Lansley
I will of course contact Health Ministers and ask whether they can expedite those discussions, but I should add that in the NHS we are publishing not only more data but more relevant data than ever before. That is particularly true of not just A and E waiting times, but the whole set of quality indicators on the A and E dashboard. Much more relevant information is being provided, and is being provided at hospital level. I am surprised by what the hon. Lady has said, given that we are now publishing more and better data.
Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con)
May we have a statement from the Home Office on the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986, in the light of revelations from the British Union for the Abolition of Vivisection about serious cruelty during experimentation at Imperial College London?
Mr Lansley
I know that my hon. Friend has secured a debate in Westminster Hall on 5 February on the regulation of animal experiments and testing. He will be aware that the use of living animals in scientific procedures that may cause pain, suffering, distress or harm is strictly regulated under the Act.
I know from working with companies and with the university in my constituency that we have what is, in my view, the strongest regime in the world in this regard, but we must always be vigilant. Home Office inspectors are investigating the allegations of cruelty and bad practice at Imperial college’s Hammersmith campus, and will make recommendations in regard to any action that needs to be taken as a matter of urgency. However, I cannot prejudice what their investigations may lead to.
Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op)
My constituent Louisa Nkang was granted indefinite leave to remain in this country in January 2011, but has been waiting for more than two years for the release of immigration status documents because the authorities say that they are still conducting security checks. The situation is hugely distressing for her, and the UK Border Agency has given me an unsatisfactory response. What advice can the Leader of the House give me?
Mr Lansley
The hon. Gentleman demonstrates good attendance in the House and he will have seen that a number of Members on both sides have raised issues about the performance of the Border Agency during a number of business questions. Ministers at the Home Office are actively aware and engaged and they are reforming the agency. That is why the Home Secretary came to the Dispatch Box and made the announcements she did shortly before the Easter recess. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will support Home Office Ministers in seeing those changes through.
Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con)
This year in my constituency, Conservative-run Lancashire county council has reduced its part of the council tax bill. Pendle borough council, run by a coalition between the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats, has frozen its part of the council tax bill. Labour’s police and crime commissioner for Lancashire has increased his part of the council tax bill. May we therefore have a debate on how we can help hard-working families with the cost of living by keeping council tax low?
Mr Lansley
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that suggestion and think it would be very helpful if we found such an opportunity. Of course, the debate on the Gracious Speech at the start of the next Session might well provide an opportunity to talk not just about helping councils to fund a council tax freeze for the third consecutive year but about addressing the issue of precepting authorities, too. In the debates on the Finance Bill, we can discuss the fact that we have cancelled Labour’s planned fuel duty increase, which is saving a typical motorist £40 a year. We have increased the personal income tax allowance, leading to a cash tax cut of £267 in the tax year ahead. Those are a range of changes with a direct impact on supporting people with the cost of living during tough times.
Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab)
The Leader of the House suggests that we should wait until Foreign Office questions on Tuesday to raise the issue of Burma, but that might be too late. Human Rights Watch’s report on crimes against humanity and against the Rohingya people in Burma is out on Monday and the sanctions will be discussed on Monday, so Tuesday will be too late. Will the Leader of the House urgently raise the subject of the report with the Foreign Secretary before he goes into the debate on EU sanctions?
Mr Lansley
I am grateful to the hon. Lady and I will of course ask the Foreign Secretary or Foreign Office Ministers about that issue and, if appropriate, whether there is any update that they can give the House when it sits on Monday.
Point of Order
Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I would welcome your advice and guidance on a matter relating to the answering of questions by the Education Secretary. You will probably know that he has one of the poorest records in the House for doing so. I believe that he has been officially chastised for his poor failures, but sadly that appears to have had little effect. I tabled a number of named day questions to the Secretary of State on 21 March with a named day of the 26th. I received four answers on the due day, but I note that the three Ministers concerned—the Under-Secretary of State responsible for further education, skills and lifelong learning, the hon. Member for West Suffolk (Matthew Hancock); the Minister for children and families, the Under-Secretary of State for Education, the hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mr Timpson); and the Minister for Schools—have demonstrated their ability to work as a team and collaborate on answers, as they all gave me exactly the same answer to four very different questions. They all said, “I will reply as soon as possible.” It is now four weeks since I tabled the questions and more than three since I received the holding replies. I received one answer today. I am sure that you will agree that it is unacceptable for Ministers to ignore questions and I would be obliged if you helped me in extracting some proper ones soon.
Mr Speaker
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his point of order, in response to which I have a number of observations. First, the hon. Gentleman will know the importance that I, as Chair of our proceedings, attach to the delivery by Ministers of timely and substantive replies to parliamentary questions. The Leader of the House and the Deputy Leader of the House are present on the Treasury Bench and I hope that one or other of them will be good enough to make contact with the Minister, in the best tradition of Leaders of the House, to exhort rather faster progress in delivering replies generally and in replying to the hon. Gentleman in particular.
Secondly, I alert the hon. Gentleman to the fact that the Procedure Committee is monitoring the performance of Government Departments on this front, and the hon. Gentleman might wish to share with the Committee the evidence he has just reported to the House.
Lastly, I simply mention to the hon. Gentleman that I know that the Procedure Committee has been watching particularly closely of late the performance of the Department for Education in these matters. I hope that that is helpful.
Finance (No. 2) Bill
(11 years ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
13:29 - The Committee divided: - Ayes: 203 / Noes: 264 - Question accordingly negatived.
15:11 - The Committee divided: - Ayes: 193 / Noes: 244 - Question accordingly negatived.
15:59 - The Committee divided: - Ayes: 192 / Noes: 248 - Question accordingly negatived.
17:29 - The Committee divided: - Ayes: 10 / Noes: 237 - Question accordingly negatived.
17:40 - The Committee divided: - Ayes: 11 / Noes: 233 - Question accordingly negatived.
17:51 - The Committee divided: - Ayes: 237 / Noes: 9 - Question accordingly agreed to.
Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) (Lab)
I beg to move amendment 1, page 1, line 7, at end add—
‘(1) The Chancellor of the Exchequer shall, within three months of the passing of this Act, publish a report on the additional rate of income tax.
(2) This report shall review the impact upon Exchequer receipts of setting the additional rate to 50 per cent. in tax year 2014-15.
(3) The report shall review what impact reducing the additional rate for 2013-14 will have on the amount of income tax currently paid by those with taxable incomes of
(a) over £150,000 per year; and
(b) over £1,000,000 per year.’.
The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dawn Primarolo)
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Clause stand part.
Clause 16 stand part.
That schedule 3 be the Third schedule to the Bill.
Catherine McKinnell
It is a pleasure, Ms Primarolo, to serve under your chairmanship this morning. I shall speak to the Opposition amendment to clause 1 and about clause 16, which relate to income tax rates and reliefs.
The Opposition believe that politics is about priorities—about providing support to those who need it most, rather than to those with the broadest shoulders. This has never been more the case than in the country’s current economic climate—a parlous economic climate which, let us remind ourselves, has seen just 0.8% growth since autumn 2010, compared with the 5.3% that was forecast at the time. The economy continues to stagnate under this Government, leading to the independent Office for Budget Responsibility halving its predictions for 2013 and anticipating growth of only 0.6% this year, compared with the 1.2% forecast just four months ago.
We have surely now reached the stage where we must ask ourselves what further evidence the Chancellor needs before he accepts that his economic plan is catastrophically failing. Once again, I note the lack of Conservative Members on the Government Benches. Perhaps Back Benchers are demonstrating their lack of confidence in the Chancellor’s plan which, I am sure they would agree, is far from acceptable.
The latest criticism of this failure came on Tuesday, with the International Monetary Fund downgrading its forecast for UK economic growth to 0.7%, in contrast to its view a month ago, when the IMF said that growth of 1% could be expected. Having subjected the UK to the biggest downgrade of any developed country for 2013 and 2014, the IMF commented:
“In the United Kingdom, the recovery is progressing slowly, notably in the context of weak external demand and ongoing fiscal consolidation.”
It went on to say:
“Greater near-term flexibility in the path of fiscal adjustment should be considered in the light of lacklustre private demand”.
In simple terms, it is time for plan B.
Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab)
I am grateful to my hon. Friend and fellow north-east MP for giving way. Does she share my view that yesterday’s unemployment figures showing an increase of 70,000 were disgraceful? The north-east of England has suffered a disproportionate increase in unemployment, and 12,000 of those 70,000 are from the region that she and I both represent. Does she agree that this is further evidence of the need for change, particularly in regions such as the one we share?
Catherine McKinnell
I very much share the deep concern expressed by my hon. Friend about the figures published yesterday. I hope the Chancellor will start to pay attention to the effect that his economic plan is having on people throughout the country but, I agree, particularly in the north-east, where unemployment is above 10%, which is a shocking figure and spells deep trouble for the long-term entrenchment of unemployment. I will come to that shortly.
As we have heard so often from this out-of-touch Chancellor, he is not for turning, despite the fact that the consequence of his economic failure means that Government borrowing is rising, not falling, with the Tory-led coalition set to borrow £245 billon more than it forecast in autumn 2010. His promise to balance the books by 2015 will not be met and the national debt will not fall until 2017-18 at the earliest. Who knows how many times that will need to be pushed back before the Chancellor realises that his plan is not working?
Of course, that dire situation has led to the downgrading of Britain’s triple A rating by Moody’s and the more recent decision by Fitch to place the UK on rating watch negative, both of which had been prized by the Chancellor and used as cover for the austerity measures he introduced back in 2010.
At a time when living standards are being squeezed, average earnings are rising at their lowest rate since the end of 2009, Government borrowing is up, growth forecasts have been downgraded again, the public services on which people rely are being cut or threatened up and down the country, and ordinary people are being asked to pay the price for the Chancellor’s economic failure, what we needed was a Budget that was on the side of ordinary, hard-working people and families, increasing numbers of whom are clearly struggling to make ends meet.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton North (Alex Cunningham) noted, unemployment is rising again. What we needed was a Budget that would back Labour’s jobs guarantee, using money raised from the tax on bank bonuses to fund a guaranteed job—a real job—for every young person who has been out of work for a year or more. I am not sure whether Government Members have had a chance to analyse the long-term unemployment figures published yesterday, but I can tell them that in March this year 167,345 adults over the age of 25 had been claiming jobseeker’s allowance for more than 24 months. Let me repeat that figure: 167,345 adults had been out of work for more than two years, compared with 84,765 in February 2012 and 52,895 in February 2011. That is a disturbing rise of 97% since February 2012 and 216% since February 2011.
Targeted and urgent action is required if the unemployment situation is not to become dangerously entrenched. We believe that it is a totally unacceptable state of affairs and that action is needed now to stop people being put on the scrap heap and left there, as they were under the previous Conservative Government—and, of course, so that we do not continue building up long-term costs for the taxpayer.
What we needed from the Budget was a reversal of the Government’s decision to stop tax relief on pension contributions for people earning over £150,000 being limited to 20% to fund Labour’s compulsory jobs guarantee for long-term unemployed adults.
Stephen Williams (Bristol West) (LD)
Perhaps the hon. Lady will remind us of the maximum amount of pension relief an individual could get right up to April 2010, or perhaps a little later. In case she does not know, someone could put just over a quarter of a million pounds a year into their pension fund and get higher-rate tax relief, including at 50%. This Government have lowered that figure to £40,000.
Catherine McKinnell
I said that the Budget needed to be about priorities and that we need to look now at how to help people struggling on the lowest incomes and ensure that those with the broadest shoulders bear the greatest burden. In government, Labour took steps to ensure that its pension reliefs were fair to those at the bottom as well as those at the top. This Government have reversed that decision to limit the relief to 20%, and we have seen the result: the impact across the board is being unfairly borne by those at the bottom. When times are as tough as they are now, it cannot be right to subsidise the pension contributions of the top 2% of earners at more than double the rate for people on average incomes who pay the basic rate of tax. However, the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats clearly believe that the time is right to prioritise those earning more than £150,000.
What we got in this year’s Budget, and in the very first clause of the Finance Bill, is the coalition’s unjustifiable and grossly unfair decision to reduce the top rate of income tax from 50p to 45p, a cut that benefits just 267,000 people earning more than £150,000, 13,000 of whom are lucky enough to earn more than £1 million. Indeed, those lucky few are receiving an average tax cut of a whopping £107,000 according to HMRC figures. Who wants to bung a millionaire indeed?
I have no doubt that at this juncture Liberal Democrat Members will want to trumpet the increase in the personal allowance—to pipe up and explain that they are not prioritising the richest in society over those who genuinely need support, but unfortunately for them the facts state otherwise. Let us remind ourselves of the analysis of figures published by the independent Institute for Fiscal Studies. It shows that taking into account all the changes to tax credits and benefits introduced since 2010, households in the UK will, on average, be a staggering £891, or £17 a week, worse off this financial year.
Catherine McKinnell
The hon. Gentleman is chuntering from a sedentary position. Does he wish to intervene?
Stephen Williams
If you are going to quote from independent reports, you should not quote—
The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. I am not quoting anything.
Stephen Williams
The hon. Lady should not quote from reports selectively. Perhaps she should go on to say that the Institute for Fiscal Studies says that the top decile of income earners has been hit hardest by the combination of Government tax changes.
Catherine McKinnell
I suggest that the hon. Gentleman is quoting selectively in leaving out the fact that the greatest impact is on the bottom decile of earners. When you take the cuts and changes overall, those at the bottom bear the greatest proportional brunt.
Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab)
I want to support what my hon. Friend has said. The Chancellor’s own distributional analysis shows that the cumulative impact of tax, tax credit and benefit measures mean net reductions in income for the poorest 4% of households. That is not selective analysis—your own Chancellor’s analysis shows that 40% of the poorest households will be affected.
Catherine McKinnell
It is the hon. Gentleman’s own Chancellor who is quoting selectively from the figures. I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention.
The facts are clear, and beyond the facts is the reality facing households up and down the country. We see people from those households coming into our constituency surgeries week in, week out. We hear stories every day from families who are clearly struggling to make ends meet.
The reality of the Chancellor’s failing plan is bearing out, not just in the statistics but in the reality of people’s day-to-day lives. The cuts to tax credits and child benefit, the granny tax, the mummy tax, the appalling bedroom tax and the huge hike in VAT, which disproportionately impacts on the poorest, hugely outweigh any small benefit from the rise in the personal allowance.
Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab)
My hon. Friend is making an excellent case about all the various cuts and how they are hitting the most vulnerable in our society. Do you think that the Government should be shedding tears for all those people who will be suffering from all the cuts?
The Second Deputy Chairman
Order. May I remind hon. Members that they are not asking the Chair of this Committee to answer questions or accusing the Chair of anything? The use of the word “you” addresses the Chair directly. It would be good practice to refer to “hon. Members” or “my hon. Friend” rather than using the word “you”, which makes things difficult.
Catherine McKinnell
Even some mild empathy from the Chancellor for those bearing the brunt of his catastrophically failing economic plan would be welcome to people up and down the country, who feel that he is extremely out of touch with the reality that they face.
To put the issue into context for Government Members, who have willingly voted through this year’s changes, I should say that a two-earner couple with children are losing on average £1,869. The average single parent in work will lose £1,226. A two-earner couple with no children will be £672 worse off, while a one-earner family with children will lose an average of £4,000 in 2013-14. Even worse, this is happening at the same time as 13,000 millionaires are getting a tax cut from this Government worth an average of £107,000. Worst of all, but not surprising given this Government’s shocking attitude towards women, is research showing that 94% of the cuts to household budgets will directly hit women, while 85% of those on incomes over £150,000—so 85% of those who are benefiting from the Government’s tax cut—are men.
Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con)
The hon. Lady is asking for an analysis of what the change in tax rate would do to the Government’s revenues. That is exactly what the previous Labour Government failed to deliver when they made their change. Does she not regret the fact that the Labour Government, in their 13 years in power, continued to levy a top rate of 40% and then made their change to the top rate so late in the day that it failed to raise any additional revenue either under their Government or, because they had not undertaken such a behavioural study of what might happen, under the Government who followed?
Catherine McKinnell
I do not follow the hon. Gentleman’s logic that that justifies a non-assessment at this stage. He knows very well that there has been a huge intake from the 50p tax rate which this Government fail to acknowledge. He also knows that we suffered a catastrophic international financial crisis in 2008 to which the Labour Government responded by ensuring that those who could bear it most would take the highest burden, therefore introducing the 50p tax rate. This Government took the first opportunity to abolish it, without even allowing enough time for proper analysis of its effect to take place.
The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Gauke)
The hon. Lady says that there was a huge intake from the 50p rate of income tax. What is her evidence for that?
Catherine McKinnell
HMRC’s report, “The Exchequer effect of the 50 per cent additional rate of income tax”, but I will go into that in more detail in due course.
The Prime Minister went on record and said in this Chamber that the 50p tax rate was cut because it did not raise any money—the Minister seems to have just made the same assertion—but page 39 of HMRC’s report makes it clear that it resulted in a yield of about £1.1 billion, which is hardly a sum to ignore in these straitened financial times. However, what stands out most from HMRC’s assessment—this point was also raised when we debated last year’s Finance Bill—is the number of times that the words “uncertain” and “uncertainty” appear; I nearly lost count, but it is a staggering 30 times. The Chancellor decided to give a tax cut to his millionaire pals before we had a clear picture of the impact of the 50p rate.
That is not just the view of the Opposition. Robert Chote, chairman of the Office for Budget Responsibility, stated:
“This is a judgement based on not even a full year’s data, based in terms of how people have responded to the 50p rate, in particular in terms of those self assessment tax-payers.”
The Institute for Fiscal Studies said:
“By giving out £3 billion to well-off people who pay 50p tax…the Government is banking on a very, very uncertain amount of people changing their behaviour and paying more tax as a result of the fact that you’re taxing them…There is a lot of uncertainty, a lot of risk on this estimate.”
In its report on the 2012 Budget, the Treasury Committee concluded:
“The costs and benefits of reducing the additional tax rate to 45p are both highly uncertain, and could be significantly more or less than the cost included in the Budget. We recommend that HMRC publish in due course a comprehensive assessment of the effect on the Exchequer of the new 45p rate.”
We agree. We need a full and proper assessment of what effect the top rate tax cut has had on tax receipts and we need to be sure that the Government continue to estimate what the gain would be if the additional rate were returned to 50%. We need, as the IFS has previously suggested, to get a clear understanding of whether the short-run response to this tax cut has been symmetric to the introduction of the 50p rate. Will people continue to use the avoidance techniques that the Government clearly believe they employed to avoid the 50p rate, or will some or all of that activity come to an end as a result of the new 45p rate? The Government should commit to our amendment’s request for such a review, if they genuinely seek to maximise revenue to the Exchequer and not to give a tax break to their millionaire friends.
Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP)
The hon. Lady is making a good case, particularly on the uncertainty about the reduced revenue yield, but even if the Government and the Red Book are correct and the loss of yield will be only £540 million over the next five years, I am sure she will agree that if £540 million is going spare it would be better to invest it in productive capacity for the future, rather than simply give it away in a tax cut that proves that we are not all in this together.
Catherine McKinnell
The hon. Gentleman makes an extremely strong point, and one that I have made repeatedly. This might seem like small change to the Chancellor, but it could make a very big difference to some of the people affected by his failing economic plan.
I am sure, given the concerns recently expressed by apparently senior Liberal Democrats, that Lib Dem Members will join us in calling for a commitment from their Conservative colleagues in the Government. Indeed, only last month a member of the Liberal Democrat tax working group stated:
“While the Treasury’s own figures about the 50p are highly questionable, the politics of cutting tax for the very rich make no sense; there is no reason why a 50p rate shouldn’t be part of a solution for tough times.”
Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)
I agree with many of the hon. Lady’s points. Plaid Cymru will fight the next Westminster election on a pledge to reintroduce the 50p rate. Will the Labour party do the same?
Catherine McKinnell
We have made it perfectly clear from day one that we do not support the cut to the 50p rate now, and we call on the Government to analyse the impact of the introduction and premature removal of the 50p rate. When we come to publish our next manifesto, we will review the state of the economy and whether a 50p rate would be the right response. I hope that Members of other Opposition parties, as well as Liberal Democrats, will support our amendment, because it would help to establish whether the 50p rate would bring in the additional Exchequer revenue that was anticipated—but if the Government refuse to back it today, we will never know.
The President of the Liberal Democrats, the hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Tim Farron), said:
“Cutting the top rate was a stupid thing to do. It probably raised up to £3bn a year. We should pledge to restore the 50p rate at the next election. It’s not enough to be fair, you have to be seen to be fair.”
Their current, or former, Treasury spokesman—I can never work out which he is—Lord Oakeshott—
Catherine McKinnell
Okay. I am pleased that that has been clarified for the record. Other hon. Members will feel the same.
Lord Oakeshott said:
“In such hard times, we should never have rolled over when the Tories wanted to cut the 50p rate unless we got a mansion tax in return. At the next election, both the mansion tax and a 50p rate should be at the forefront of Lib Dem tax policy.”
I have news for him. Liberal Democrats have had the opportunity to vote for the mansion tax, and today they have the chance to vote for their 50p rate. They do not need to wait for the next manifesto. They can make it happen today. Lord Oakeshott’s is an interesting view, however, given the Liberal Democrats’ decision to vote against their own mansion tax policy twice in as many months. I would join him, however, in urging his party colleagues not to roll over for the Tories on this issue, but to support our amendment.
We are obviously disappointed that our amendment to clause 16 was not selected for debate. The clause introduces schedule 3, which provides for the cap on 11 named income tax reliefs for amounts greater than £50,000 or 25% of an individual’s income. This policy was first announced in 2012. Like many others, the Opposition are pleased that this provision no longer includes the original proposal to limit tax relief on charitable giving. In one of the several U-turns on last year’s omnishambles, the Chancellor was forced to back down on this ill-thought-through policy, which threatened the charitable sector with a cut of up to £500 million in income per year. A powerful campaign backed by more than 1,000 charities was given the very simple title, “Give it Back, George.”
Several concerns about clause 16 remain, however, particularly about its potential impact on entrepreneurialism and small businesses. The Association of Accounting Technicians believes that the restriction of small reliefs on losses runs counter to the Government’s apparent commitment to encourage new business start-ups. It stated:
“In the current economic climate, start-up businesses are likely to operate at a loss in their early years, therefore our view is that an imposition of an arbitrary cap will be a further obstacle to entrepreneurship… Furthermore, existing legislation already prohibits relief for ‘artificial losses’”.
That means that any genuine losses sustained in starting or developing a business should be relievable, in accordance with existing legislation, in a way that enables the entrepreneur to recover tax previously suffered as quickly as possible in order to help to fund their new venture.
The Chartered Institute of Taxation shares similar concerns, describing the cap as a “blunt instrument” that could have an
“adverse effect on genuine businesses and the UK economy”
and saying that
“it gives the wrong message to entrepreneurs thinking of setting up a business. The net effect could be to reduce the tax take rather than increase it.”
It has drawn particular attention to concerns that the cap will catch owners of genuine commercial businesses who happen to incur a loss, instead of a profit—for example, where a new business is being established; where a business is weathering economic conditions and concentrating on simply surviving until the climate has improved; and where there has been an exceptional level of business expenditure, such as on the purchase of a major item of machinery or the recruitment of additional staff in anticipation of expansion.
The Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales has said that the measure
“will hit small businesses by restricting loss relief for commercial losses. The measure will reduce cashflow, hamper business growth and could lead to small businesses that are experiencing difficulty in the current economic climate going bust”.
Surely even this Government would not want that outcome as a result of a Budget measure. I would therefore greatly welcome hearing from the Minister that the Chancellor might just be for turning on this issue.
Fiona O'Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this morning, Ms Primarolo—[Interruption]. We have just made it into the afternoon. It is also a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North (Catherine McKinnell), who made such a strong case for the Opposition’s amendment to clause 1. It is to clause 1 in the main that I wish to address my remarks.
This week and in the days leading up to the funeral of Baroness Thatcher, Government Members have been proud to proclaim themselves as Thatcherites—no more talk of one nation Conservatives or how “We’re all in it together”. I was pleased that my hon. Friend spoke about the impact of this Government’s choices. That is what we are talking about today: their choices and priorities. Proportionately, they are hitting women so much harder than men, while the benefits they are seeking to give—reducing the 50p tax rate to 45p—will disproportionately benefit men.
That was certainly my experience as a woman at home caring for my children through the Thatcher years. I find it almost incomprehensible when I hear people talk about how much she did for women, because that was not my experience, as I genuinely struggled to put food on the table for my children and keep a roof over their heads. For me, the difference we saw in 1997, with the birth of a new Labour Government—new in every way—was predominantly in the increase in child benefit. That is what changed my ability as a mother to care for my children—to provide for them and give them a better life than I had had. This Government have chosen to freeze child benefit, while at the same time giving a tax break to 13,000 millionaires and 267,000 people earning more than £150,000. I would be interested to hear from the Minister—or from other Government Members, if it is not just the Minister who is going to speak on this issue—how many people earning more than £150,000 have come to his surgery or contacted his office to say that times are so tough that they need a tax break. How many people have contacted the Treasury to say that?
Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)
During this week, from Second Reading onwards, we have seen a dearth of speakers from the Government Benches, yet we have also seen a rise in unemployment figures and clear signs that on average people are facing real cuts in their earnings. Is it not extraordinary that Government Back Benchers seem not to want to speak?
Fiona O'Donnell
As ever, my hon. Friend makes a reasonable and forceful contribution to the debate. This is shocking complacency from Government Members—their constituents and mine will be watching them—as unemployment rises and as families face an average cut of £17 a week as a result of all the changes they have made since 2010.
Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)
I might be pre-empting what my hon. Friend is about to say, but with these measures are we not seeing a return to the discredited policy of trickle-down economics, whereby the Government think that if we give more money to the wealthy, they will spend it and boost the economy? However, we know that they are less likely to spend the extra money going into their accounts, whereas people at the bottom, who are really struggling to get by, will spend the money we give them. If we are looking at the economic impact, it is better to give that money to the poorer people.
Fiona O'Donnell
Absolutely, and I thank my hon. Friend. I was not about to turn to that point, but I will develop it as it affects the local economy in East Lothian.
East Lothian has a number of small towns, some of them market towns. Often, it is the poorest in those communities who spend their money in local shops in the high street; they are not able to take advantage of out-of-town supermarkets. Those high streets are struggling. The Government are taking money out of local economies—out of small high streets in East Lothian—which is having a negative effect. One group of businesses is, however, growing in our high streets: pawnbrokers and high street lenders, which will not improve the lot of the most vulnerable in my constituency.
Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)
That point about our high streets is incredibly important. It is not simply high streets in Labour constituencies that are suffering. Anyone who attends the meetings of the all-party group for town centres will know that, even in leafy Conservative and, dare I say it, Liberal Democrat seats, high streets are struggling. What evidence is there that the windfall for the richest people in our society will contribute in any way to income in our high streets and in our economy? The money is more likely to be spent in Bermuda than in Birmingham.
Fiona O'Donnell
My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. The problem is not restricted to high streets. In small rural constituencies, there may be one village shop, where the local post office is located. The post office network is also being put at risk as such small village shops are unable to make a profit. Therefore, we risk losing post office services. We are facing that now in East Lothian. Post office closures may not be planned, but that may be a consequence of the Government’s economic choices.
It seems almost too simplistic to make this point, but Government Members have boasted about the fact that the Government are hurting the richest 10% the most. However, if the Government choose to take £25 a week from a rich family, it will have a lot less impact than taking £17 a week from a hard-working family. Taking that from the richest will not mean they will present themselves at food banks looking for assistance to put food on the table, but that is what the Government are forcing working families increasingly to do. We look forward—that is perhaps the wrong term—to hearing the Trussell Trust’s latest figures on the number of people it has fed over the past year. All the indications are that the number has increased significantly; it may be over 500,000. That is a matter of real concern.
Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab)
I am enjoying my hon. Friend’s speech immensely. On that point, just last Thursday, the food bank in Fenton in my constituency had its highest number of visitors yet— 19 people turned up, whereas normally about eight or nine do so. That is a growing trend on top of a growing trend.
Fiona O'Donnell
I am sure that Members on both sides of the House are seeing that in their constituencies. I hope that Government Members will visit food banks in their communities to understand the causes of food insecurity. As my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North said, it is about the choices the Government are making and their priorities. Earlier we heard the most uncomfortable and distorted logic: when the economy was growing, unemployment was falling, we were investing in health and helping young people into employment, the Labour Government should have taken more money from the rich through a 50p tax rate, just for the sake of it; but when the economy is flat-lining, unemployment has just risen again, poverty and the gap between rich and poor are increasing, it is the right time for this Government to give a tax break to people earning over £150,000. I cannot follow that logic.
The Joseph Rowntree Foundation has estimated that almost 2.5 million families on low incomes will pay £130 more in council tax this year, adding further to the squeeze that working families are suffering. This Government have made their choice, and I think that, as they drive towards the next general election, if they glance in the rear-view mirror, two hazards will make them fail the electoral test. The first is their decision to scrap the 50p rate of tax. The second is their choice to introduce a bedroom tax at the same time. There is a family in Wallyford in my constituency, the Anderson family. Mr Anderson is a full-time carer for his wife, who has a severe form of epilepsy. He is saving this country a small fortune by caring for his wife, but he does it because he wants to, not because he has to. There are times when he needs not to sleep in the same room as his wife—I have his permission to discuss his case in this amount of detail—and he needs to be able to make that choice. He also has a son with spina bifida, who is now enjoying a degree of independence and living away from his family, but he can maintain that independence only by returning home for about three days a week when the weather is bad. Recently, he has been at home for longer—so that bedroom is needed for Mark and his equipment.
I feel ashamed that Mr Anderson should have to come to see me to ask why the Government are choosing to give money to people who are not even asking for it, when he is going to be taxed for having that bedroom. And it is a tax; when the Government take money out of people’s pockets, that is a tax. This Government are choosing to make life much more difficult for a man who has given up work to care for his wife and to support his disabled son and enable him to live as independent a life as possible. That says a lot about the Government’s approach, and it does not surprise me that Government Members are not seeking to contribute to the debate today.
Jonathan Edwards
The hon. Lady will be aware that the tax cut for people earning more than £3,000 a week was introduced in the last Finance Bill. Members of the parliamentary Labour party abstained in the vote on that Bill. She has made some pretty strong comments today. Is she now saying that that abstention was a catastrophic political mistake?
Fiona O’Donnell
No, I am not. I would say that the catastrophic political mistakes are most often made on the nationalist Benches. We are stating clearly that, if we were in government today, we would not be scrapping the 50p rate. There is no ambivalence or doubt about that. That is the position of Labour Members in the Chamber.
I appeal to Liberal Democrat Members to remember their Lib Dem values, and to all Government Members to think about the people who are contacting them. Are they the people who earn more than £150,000 a year, or are they the families and pensioners who are struggling with the cost of daily living? I urge Government Members to vote according to the representations that they are receiving.
Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)
It is a particular pleasure to serve under your chairmanship today, Ms Primarolo. I welcome you back, and I am glad to see you in fine health.
I have been spurred on by the hon. Member for East Lothian (Fiona O’Donnell) to speak in the debate and to defend the Government’s policy, which is wise and right and good—[Interruption.] I do not often cheer up the Whips, but if I do so, that will be an added advantage. The amendment tabled by Her Majesty’s official Opposition is completely unnecessary and wrong-headed.
Jacob Rees-Mogg
Because it does not actually work like that. We know from experience that high rates of tax reduce the amount of taxation that is received. The Laffer curve is not a myth. If you put rates up, tax revenues decline.
Sheila Gilmore
I welcome the hon. Gentleman to the debate, as we have been lacking a challenge up to now and it is always good to be challenged. He makes an argument about the Laffer curve. I am sure he would agree that if tax rates are zero, you do not get anything, and that if tax rates are 100%, you would probably not get anything either. However, the question of where it is right to draw the line in between, in any given economic situation, is surely a matter for debate. You cannot simply say, “Oh, the Laffer curve says we can’t put tax rates up.”
The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. I remind the Committee that the guidance on conventions and courtesies is quite clear on the language to be used in the Chamber. Hon. Members will know that “you” refers to the Chair as all remarks are made through the Chair. I would therefore be grateful if hon. Members would refer to each other by their constituency names, or as “the hon. Member”, “my hon. Friend” or “the Minister”. They should desist from saying “you”; otherwise, I might feel the need to answer the debate as well, and then we would have disorder. We do not want that, do we, Mr Rees-Mogg?
Jacob Rees-Mogg
Ms Primarolo, your answer to the debate would be so fine that it would hold the rest of us silent.
The hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) is absolutely right. It is difficult to say at exactly what point on the Laffer curve revenue is maximised. As I understand it, however, the latest academic studies suggest that around 37% is the level at which income tax revenues would be maximised. That is why I would favour the Government going further and reducing the rate of income tax to the level at which it was kept by the Labour party when it was in office.
Fiona O’Donnell
I did not think that I had spurred the hon. Gentleman to speak; given his posture during my speech, I thought that I had woken him from his slumbers. Do we have another split in the coalition here? Lib Dem Members have been criticising the previous Labour Government for not having the 50p rate for longer.
Jacob Rees-Mogg
The coalition is, I am sure, united at the highest level, but that does not mean that Back Benchers do not sometimes disagree. My hon. Friend the Member for Bristol West (Stephen Williams) and I often discuss these matters, and we do not invariably agree on every aspect of them. The Lib Dems have their own particular policies, which they will no doubt put forward in an election campaign, but the coalition at large is committed to a single policy.
I want to come back to the amendment, which is about getting back to the 50p rate. We already have a situation in which the top 1% of taxpayers pay nearly 28% of the total income tax receipts—that is, £50 billion. If the rate of tax is put up to too high a level, people will change their behaviour to alter the amount of tax they pay. That is very straightforward, and they can do a number of things. Some people leave the country, so that their tax is paid overseas. Some work less hard, reducing their earnings to reduce their tax payments. Some use pension funds or legitimate forms of tax avoidance to minimise their income. That is all perfectly well known by those on the Opposition Front Bench, who are a fine and intelligent group of people, yet they try to make political points on the argument about fairness. Fairness seems to me to be about doing what is right.
Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab)
It seems to me that the argument is not that we should reduce tax so that people will be kind enough to pay it; rather, we should be looking into closing down tax avoidance schemes. We should be presenting the moral case that everyone should be paying in according to their ability to pay, particularly in these difficult times.
Jacob Rees-Mogg
However much we tackle tax avoidance, if we set tax rates at so high a level that people decide not to work, no legislation can force them to work to earn more. Unless we want to be like the Russia of the 1980s, we cannot pass a law to prevent people from leaving the country to work elsewhere if the taxes are too high here.
Sheila Gilmore
The point is constantly made that the top 1% pay a very high proportion of income tax and that that makes this measure okay, but presumably they pay that because their income is high. The gap in this country between low-income people and high-income people has widened considerably. That happened under the Government of the late Baroness Thatcher, but, admittedly, not enough was done to address it under the subsequent Labour Government. The point, however, is that if people are paying so much, it is because they have the income to do so.
Jacob Rees-Mogg
The hon. Lady almost makes my argument for me. In 1979, that hallowed year in which the great lady to whom she referred came to office, the highest rate of income tax was 98%, and the proportion of income tax revenues paid by the top 1% was about 10%. When the rate fell, the proportion paid by the top 1% went up, so more money came from the richest in society when rates were lower. Lower rates of taxation therefore resulted in the advantage of an increase in revenue for the Government and the ability to spend more on the services deemed necessary.
This argument was proved in 1979 when the rate went down from 98% to about 60% and again in 1988 when it went down from 60% to 40%. On both occasions, the amount of tax revenue increased because people were willing to work harder and people were attracted to work in this country—so the burden was, indeed, put on to the shoulders of those best able to bear it.
An argument is made about fairness. We say it is fairer to have a high rate of tax. We say that that is symbolically right—that we should have it so that people know they are doing something difficult and we are all in this together—but what is the symbolism of saying to people we will take less tax from them, and what is the symbolism of having lower revenue for the Government?
Julie Hilling
Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs says that in the one year when the 50% tax rate applied, revenues went up—the figure it is currently giving is £1 billion. It is therefore difficult to argue that we should get rid of this tax rate, especially as we do not yet have all the evidence. We are only beginning to get the evidence now, because people are paying that rate now.
Jacob Rees-Mogg
In fact, HMRC came out with figures showing the tax paid by the highest taxpayers declined; there was a loss in revenue of £6 billion, I think. I would prefer to take the actual figures that come in. I may be disloyal on this point—for which I hope those on the Treasury Bench will forgive me—but I think that forecasts from Her Majesty’s Treasury are absolutely useless. We do not want to go on economic forecasts; we want to follow facts, and the facts on the revenue that has historically come in make it clear that lower rates increase the tax take.
Julie Hilling
It is my understanding that, although tax takes went down in the first year when people could pre-pay and will definitely go down in this year when people will post-pay, they rose in the middle year, which is the one full year when the rate has applied, and for which people are now paying their taxes.
Jacob Rees-Mogg
The problem with that argument is that we have facts that show that the amount of revenue has gone down. Over a three-year period it has gone down very substantially, because the rate was high. The hon. Lady’s comments also serve to illustrate the following point on my behalf, for which I am grateful: when tax rates are raised, people change their behaviour so that the tax they pay is reduced. That is where the Laffer curve comes in. Income is reduced when tax rates are too high.
Kerry McCarthy
I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is a student of behavioural psychology, as he is of so many other subjects, so can he explain why the Government believe that if we give more money to wealthy people that encourages them to work harder, whereas the lower paid are encouraged to work harder if we give them less money?
Jacob Rees-Mogg
The hon. Lady—my near neighbour, as she represents a Bristol constituency—is very wise and does, I am sure, understand this point. The answer is that the question being asked differs between benefits and earnings, although the argument is essentially the same. Inevitably, where there is a level of benefits that discourages people from working, if that increases more slowly, it encourages people to work. It is an identical argument to the one that says people keep more of the money they earn if taxes are set lower.
Sheila Gilmore
The problem for many people at present is that the jobs simply are not out there. In my speech on Monday I explained that I had used the Government’s new universal job match. When I put in “shop assistant” on behalf of a constituent of mine, I discovered there were 76 entries, which sounds good, but 57 of them were for vacancies all over the region, not just in my city, and involved going around delivering catalogues and trying to sell things to people. Those are the kinds of so-called “jobs” that are out there, and that explains why people cannot find work.
Jacob Rees-Mogg
I am always doubtful when people are sniffy about jobs that people take. I and others in the Conservative party voluntarily go around knocking on people’s doors trying to sell them party policies. That is known as canvassing, and I wish I got paid for that activity, but I do it out of the goodness of my heart. I do not think one should be sniffy about jobs that people might apply for; they are all welcome and all valuable.
Fiona O'Donnell
The hon. Gentleman is completely out of touch on this point. The point is not that people are being sniffy, picky or choosy about jobs. The point is that someone might live in Edinburgh East while the job is in Fife, and we do not all have drivers and chauffeurs to take us to Fife to do the job.
Jacob Rees-Mogg
I wish I was in this fortunate position of having a chauffeur or driver to take me to Fife to get a job. When I tried for a job in Fife in 1997, I was distinctly unsuccessful, and came back to a job in London, but that is slightly beside the point.
The overall point is that income at whatever levels has a determinant effect on the employment people seek and the work they are willing to do. That applies to benefits— paying benefits at too high a level can create a benefit trap that makes it not worth while for people to apply for jobs—and it applies very clearly to high tax rates when people decide not to earn.
Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab)
There is some research that counters part of the hon. Gentleman’s argument. In the 1980s in Germany they found that if the income of people on very high salaries is increased, they want to take more time off to enjoy it. There comes a point when they have so much income that what they want is time, not more money.
Jacob Rees-Mogg
As always, the hon. Gentleman makes a very interesting point, but if we aggregate across society at large, the determining factor will be that people want to earn more money. Although some individuals may prefer leisure, of course, many will want to continue earning to increase their standard of living or to provide for future generations. We are slightly moving away from the point, however, and there are some key aspects to which I wish to return.
I mentioned fairness. It is a bizarre definition of fairness to say that it is fair to set tax rates at a level that raises less tax. That is an argument that makes PR and spin and the like much more important than the realities of economics, and it is bad politics as well as dreadful economics.
I also want to tackle the question of the morality of taxation. Is it morally right that people should pay half their earnings over to the Government? I think it is morally wrong. I think there is a moral case for low taxation and allowing people to keep the fruits of their labours, and when the rate gets to 50% that is simply too high in a moral sense, even if it is economically successful, which it is not. I do not believe the state has the right to take half of somebody’s earnings.
Robert Flello
Is it morally right that time and again constituents come to my surgery with the figures in front of them, saying, “This is my income and these are my outgoings; I cannot afford to live”, because of the low level of their income and the apparent inability of the benefits system now to support them?
Jacob Rees-Mogg
I obviously do not know about the individual cases that come to the hon. Gentleman’s surgery, but with a benefits bill for this country of £220 billion a year, there really ought to be—
Jacob Rees-Mogg
It is rising, as the hon. Gentleman says. There is a huge amount of money in the benefits system. If it is not going to the right people, that will be rectified by the reforms being pushed through by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, which are some of the Government’s most ambitious and important changes.
The Temporary Chair (Mr Jim Hood)
Order. I ask hon. Members to desist from commentary during the contributions of other hon. Members.
Jacob Rees-Mogg
Unless such money is put in a mattress, it has an effect, because it goes into the banks. As hon. Members know, the banks have been short of capital to lend out and short of deposits.
Kelvin Hopkins
My study of economics, which I also used to teach, always showed that the rich have a lower marginal propensity to consume than the poor. If we want to drive economic growth, we should give money to poor people because they spend it immediately in the domestic economy, rather than hiding their surplus cash in tax havens abroad.
Jacob Rees-Mogg
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that intervention, because it demonstrates an unduly simplistic approach. Indeed, poorer people may have a higher propensity to spend than richer people, but that is not the end point of the economic cycle. There need to be deposits in banks so that money can be lent to businesses—small businesses as well as large—and so that people can take out mortgages. There is a cycle and a flow of money.
Andy McDonald (Middlesbrough) (Lab)
Will the hon. Gentleman explain why, when I speak to banks—I had a conversation with Barclays bank not many weeks ago—they say that they do have deposits and the ability to lend, but that money is not flowing out because people are not approaching them? Is that the reason or is it that the terms on which they propose to lend money are so onerous that the transactions do not proceed? Whichever it is, my understanding is that the banks do have the funds.
Jacob Rees-Mogg
One of the major flaws that led to the banking crisis was that loan-to-deposit ratios across the banking sector were out of kilter. Banks were lending more than they had on deposit and were therefore entirely dependent on the wholesale market. The wholesale market dried up, which led to a huge calling in of loans. That was at the heart of the financial crisis.
The banks may be saying that they are more comfortable with their loan-to-deposit ratios, but if one looks at the figures, even HSBC’s loan-to-deposit ratio—for its UK business, rather than its international business—is about 100%. Historically, banks have been more comfortable in the 70% to 80% range. We therefore do need more savings in the economy and those come from the better-off saving some of the income that they earn.
Kelvin Hopkins
The hon. Gentleman seems to be making a powerful case for the reintroduction of exchange controls, so that money made in the domestic economy goes into the domestic banks and helps us all.
Jacob Rees-Mogg
I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman on that at all, because this country attracts a huge amount of foreign investment. Sticking to the example of the Hongkong and Shanghai Banking Corporation, that company was able to ease its way through the financial crisis because it could lend its overseas deposits to its British business. It was on the backs of savers in Hong Kong and China that HSBC was secure during that period.
Rich people saving their income is a good thing economically because it boosts the pool of saving that is available for productive investment, such as loans to businesses and individuals. Even if the argument were right that this policy is a great boondoggle for the wealthy, which it is not, it would be beneficial because it would help the economy get back on to a path to growth by providing the capital that is needed for the banks to lend.
In summary, it is clear that putting rates up leads to less tax. That is not a sensible thing to do when the Government are short of money. It is not fair, indeed it is unfair, because it puts a greater burden on other members of society who have less ability to pay. It is not morally defensible because high rates of tax are not a moral good and low rates a moral evil; in fact, it is the other way round. People have a right to keep the money that they earn, unless the state can show that it is essential to take it. That is economically beneficial because one of the great problems of our economy is a lack of saving. We are not in the paradox of thrift circumstance, in which excess savings deflate the economy.
For all those reasons, the amendment should be rejected and Her Majesty’s Government should be proud of what they have done. Indeed, they should go further and look to get the higher rate of tax down to 40% and perhaps even to that magic figure of 37%, which, as I said earlier, some studies show would be the perfect rate to maximise revenue, encourage people to work hard and continue us on our path to success.
Andy McDonald
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hood.
I will address the amendment directly. The lowering of the top rate of income tax to 45p will benefit 267,000 people who earn more than £150,000. In my view, it cannot be right that those who earn more than £1 million a year will receive a tax cut of more than £100,000. Families across the country will be £891 worse off on average as a result of the Chancellor’s changes to tax, tax credits and benefits since 2010. I am at a loss as to how that fits with the concept that we are all in it together. The 1% cap on tax credits and working-age benefits means a cut in real terms. At the bottom, inflation outstrips increases in earnings, whereas at the top, earnings outstrip inflation.
Acres of copy have been written about Baroness Thatcher over the past week, but one of her utterances that has not received the attention that it deserves is her expression of disappointment that, despite having made it possible for a small minority of people to gain control of the majority of the wealth of this country, that has not given rise to a greater degree of charity or generosity. Interestingly, it is often those who have the least who give the most. Two examples of such generosity are imprinted on my mind. The first was in 1984, when people from my community made regular trips up to Easington colliery with bags and boxes of food to assist families in County Durham who were finding life such a struggle.
The second example is from recent weeks, when I visited one of the five food banks in my constituency run by the Trussell Trust. It was heartbreaking to hear from the local director of the trust, Nigel Perrott, that food parcels were being sent to my town of Middlesbrough from places such as York and Thirsk. He hails from the home counties and credits people in that part of the country with tremendous generosity. However, he said that he had been surprised and overwhelmed by the generosity of the people of Middlesbrough. When they come out of the supermarkets, they do not donate the occasional tin of beans or packet of rice, but bags and bags of food. It seems that everything changes, but nothing changes. It is perhaps no coincidence that such desperate need arises when the Conservative party is in power.
We used to hear a lot from the Prime Minister about the big society, although a lot less so recently. The genuine big society is, as it ever was, ordinary people looking after each other.
Robert Flello
I am enjoying my hon. Friend’s contribution, albeit that it is tinged with quite a lot of despair. To reinforce his point, last Saturday a trolley push organised by the Trussell Trust gathered more than 325 kilos of food from the people of Stoke-on-Trent for the people of Stoke-on-Trent.
Andy McDonald
My hon. Friend makes a telling point and I would not want to diminish the importance of what I am saying by qualifying what he said about despair. As in his constituency, this Friday we will have a wonderful demonstration of generosity in my constituency with the same sort of event—a trolley push. My point, however, which I wish to reinforce, is that there is such a spirit of determination and people are so resilient that they will not be beaten by this situation. However, they will come through it not because of this Government but despite them.
While tax cuts are being handed out to millionaires, 40% of children in my constituency are living in poverty. I cannot see how fairness and the apparent principles of a big society are influencing or informing this Government’s policies one iota. I do not wish to dwell too much on the negativity, but it is unavoidable given that my constituency is the second worst in the country for long-term unemployment. We are asking for fair treatment. North-east England is the only net exporting region in the country; our contribution to the national economy is massive but the people see little of the benefits. It is about fairness.
The Prime Minister and Chancellor have repeatedly said that those with the broadest shoulders should bear the largest load. They claim that the 45p tax rate raises more revenue, but one data point is totally unreliable, as has been exposed in the Chamber today. It is also clear that the richest will arrange their affairs, especially when such a reduction was so well telegraphed. The richest have benefited most from our society, and the amount of tax they pay is proportionately more than their numbers, but proportionately less than their wealth. Relative to their income, the Chancellor’s biggest tax rise—that on VAT—hurts those at the bottom most. The rich still do very well, with company directors getting inflation-busting pay increases, and bank executives getting huge bonuses, which the Prime Minister went to Brussels to defend.
Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)
The Committee may already know, and people will be interested to hear that, in the past two years, pay increases for the top 10% were on average 5.5% in both years. The top 10% have increased their pay by 11%. The Government claim that the rich are making a greater contribution, but they have very thick wallets to start with and, frankly, are sitting comfortably.
Andy McDonald
That is exactly right. I was going to make that point another way and say that company directors of the FTSE 100 received on average a 50% pay rise in 2011—Income Data Service provided that information. The well-off enjoy the benefits of many interesting incentive schemes that are not available to ordinary working people such as Mrs O’Reilly or Mr Hussain in my constituency, where the average income for a full-time employee is less than £500.
Geraint Davies
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his enormous generosity in giving way. I have a schedule from a constituent that details his personal means. Until the beginning of this month he had £21.25 a week left for food and clothing after paying his utility bills and allowing £6 for bus fares. After the introduction of the empty bedroom tax, which will cost £10.31, he will end up with under £11 a week for food. Some problem could happen along the lines mentioned by my hon. Friend, but assuming that nothing else is needed, he will have just £11 a week. We would not want that desperate situation to happen in a developing country, let alone in Britain. How can we justify giving money to the richest when people are in despair and poverty?
Andy McDonald
I absolutely agree. People are getting down to the pennies, not the pounds, yet this month multimillionaires will get an extra £2,000 a week. We should be thoroughly ashamed of delivering that to our people. I sometimes wonder what on earth we mean by patriotism in our land. We can wave our flags and hold the necessary ceremonial events, but where do the people come in? For my money, patriotism must be about our people. We sometimes lose sight of that and get confused by the panoply and array of colourful images of patriotism that do not go to the heart of the living and working conditions of our people.
Geraint Davies
My hon. Friend mentions patriotism, which reminds me of yesterday’s great spectacle of Baroness Thatcher’s funeral, which many people would have enjoyed watching on television. However, let us not forget that that £10 million would have kept my constituent going on his previous income for 10,000 years, and on his new income for 20,000 years. Is that not a disgrace?
Andy McDonald
My hon. Friend’s point is well made —he expresses it well.
I shall conclude by highlighting the lack, as I perceive it, of any conversion among Departments. There is a desire to offer assistance to the insurance industry, which will no doubt be delighted that it will no longer have to pay compensation to people in the circumstances I have described. I strongly suspect that the measure will not help our industries one jot—I do not foresee any massive reduction in the employers’ liability premiums that will be charged as a result of the measure—and, frankly, the insurance industry is laughing all the way to the bank. I do not know whether it is laughing with or at the Government, but in any event, it is has received a fabulous return at the country’s expense.
All that is happening in the run-up to workers memorial day. It saddens me immensely that we will commemorate the dead and fight for the living on that day when employers know that the regulations we have fought so hard to introduce to our workplaces to promote a safety culture have no teeth whatever. As a result of the measures, there will be an increase in deaths and serious injuries in the workplace. That, too, will be visited on the statutory services. We are compounding error on error. I urge the Government to think carefully about the impact of those policies.
The point is well made that the Treasury is defending the rich and powerful against ordinary working people. The reflex of Government Members is to protect the powerful against the powerless; those with a voice against the voiceless; and those who control the wealth of this nation against those who build it.
The Temporary Chair (Mr Jim Hood)
Order. Before I call the next speaker, I should say that I am mindful to call the Minister at 1.15 pm. Hon. Members should therefore bear that in mind when they make their contributions.
Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)
I rise to support the proposals in the names of my hon. Friends.
On the one hand, Government Members accuse Labour Members of always wanting to clobber the rich, but on the other they accuse us of not introducing the 50p rate early enough. We had a vibrant economy, but everything changed with the enormous banking crisis in 2008. In response, we had to introduce a deficit reduction plan, part of which was the perfectly logical introduction of the 50p tax rate.
I make no apology for Labour’s firm commitment to the redistribution of wealth through the taxation system. The majority of citizens in western European democracies share that view. The taxation system is not the only redistribution mechanism. Other mechanisms include the minimum wage, which the Labour Government introduced. I hope the Government retain the minimum wage and increase it year on year in line with inflation. It worries me that it is going up by only 1.9% this year, while inflation races ahead. It is important that we have such mechanisms, but taxation is an important mechanism in the redistribution of wealth. The vast majority of people in this country recognise the need for all to contribute to the many public services we enjoy, and the need for some redistribution through the taxation system.
The economic argument that my hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas) advanced about money going back into local economies is extremely strong. People on the lowest incomes tend to spend money immediately, so it goes immediately back into the local economy and helps the local high street. Local businesses are going bust because people simply do not have the money to spend. They are struggling. They are turning to food banks—they are unable to buy food, never mind Christmas presents, clothes and the rest of it.
Local economies are struggling enormously. We have heard from many wise sources that the Chancellor needs to get his act together on stimulating the economy, and putting the money in the pockets of people who have the lowest incomes, who will then use it immediately in the local economy, is one way of doing so. That is not happening, which is why the Opposition are so angry about the cut in tax from 50% to 45% when there is an enormous squeeze on those on lower incomes.
One of the most insidious changes is the change to tax credits. They are difficult to explain because they have been designed to suit each individual household, which makes it more difficult to speak about them in a more general sense. Nevertheless, let us look at the changes. First, there has been an increase in the tax credit clawback. The whole point of tax credits is that they are an incentive for people to work if they can find it. Many who are on low incomes cannot get more hours, and the maximum amount that many can be paid for the hours they work in a full-time week still qualifies them for tax credit. Any reduction in that tax credit is therefore counter-productive—it does not help people at all.
The child care tax credit has also been reduced. That is another seemingly mad policy. The money is desperately needed to help people to work. The family element of tax credit has been abolished, as has the 50-plus element, and the working tax credit has been frozen. Given current inflation, the proposed cap of 1% on increases in working tax credit and child tax credit is effectively another cut—it is a cut in what lower-income families can buy with the money they have, with the catastrophic effect that all hon. Members see in our local economies and high streets.
In Wales alone, the tax credit measures will suck some £794 million—much-needed money for lower-income families—out of the economy. The whole point of tax credits was that they were calculated on what it was reasonable for a family to live on, which helped those whose earnings did not meet that rate to keep going.
Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)
In communities such as mine and that of my hon. Friend, the poor spend money—they have no saving capability. Does she agree that the measures therefore have a double impact on local shops and economies?
Nia Griffith
My hon. Friend makes a good point. That is the iniquity of the cut from 50% to 45%. Effectively, a cut in one place unfortunately means that people suffer in other places. Those on the highest incomes can afford to cushion themselves and do not need to spend money straight away. Even someone who earns just £10,000 above the £150,000 mark will benefit significantly. Instead of paying £5,000 in tax, they will pay £4,500. They will have a gain after tax of £500. Most people do not see anything like that increase in their income—incomes are frozen. If someone earning £50,000 has even a 1% increase, they will not get that £500 because it would be taxed. With all the different changes that are being imposed on them, families are losing far more—they are losing, on average, £895 per year.
Geraint Davies
My hon. Friend will know that the Government’s alleged strategy is that the private sector will move in and generate growth as the public sector is pulled back. In Wales, there is a higher proportion of public sector employment and, as she has said, £790 million will be taken out of demand, and savings rates among people in work are increasing because of insecurity. The whole concoction is pushing Wales and similar regions into negative growth. Does she agree that we should stimulate growth by giving more money to people who are poor, because they spend it?
Nia Griffith
I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. We should get more stimulus into the economy and get more people into work doing useful things, such as through infrastructure projects, which he has championed in our local area. It certainly does not help to have more people thrown out of work. It will obviously lower their incomes immediately, but it will also have a direct effect on the local economy.
Debbie Abrahams
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hood.
I came to this House just over two years ago, and the main reason I got into politics was my belief in making Britain a fairer society—a more equal society in which the gap between the haves and the have-nots is narrow and in which we protect and look after our most vulnerable people. I believe that to be intuitively right and just, and there is also significant evidence to show that a fairer society benefits everybody in respect not only of life expectancy improvements and mental health benefits, but of educational attainments, improvements in social mobility and in rates of offending. All of us benefit from having a fairer society. Unfortunately, the measures in this Bill contribute not one jot to such a society.
As I said in my speech on the Budget a week or so ago, this Government absolutely fail the anti-poverty test. My hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North (Catherine McKinnell) mentioned the analysis by the Institute for Fiscal Studies, but there are also those of the Joseph Rowntree Foundation, the Child Poverty Action Group, the Resolution Foundation, the New Economics Foundation—and the list goes on. They all reached the same conclusion: the poorer people are, the worse off they are.
Raising the personal allowance does little for the lowest-paid workers, many of whom do not pay tax anyway. Over 682,000 working families receiving child tax credit earn less than £6,420, so I am afraid that they will not benefit at all from the increase in the tax threshold. Taken in conjunction with the welfare cuts they are now facing, the lowest earning taxpayers will receive an income boost of 32p a week or £16.80 a year as compared with those not claiming housing benefit or council tax benefit of up to £112 a year. That does not take into account the impact of the 20% VAT hike back in 2011, the additional 26% rise in food prices since 2009 or the 20% increase in energy costs that households face on their household bills. Nearly 8,000 households in my Oldham East and Saddleworth constituency—nearly one in four—already live in fuel poverty. How are they meant to cope? As other Members have said, our constituency surgeries are crammed with families that are desperate about how they are going to cope in the coming weeks and months. My constituency now has a food bank—the first ever in modern Oldham—and the number of recipients of food bank support has trebled over the last quarter. I am deeply concerned about that.
Geraint Davies
I visited the food bank in my own constituency only last Monday, and the key issue put to me was that food banks were designed as places of crisis able to give two or three parcels to people in the moment of crisis—for instance, when benefits had been delayed or something had gone wrong. They were not designed to sustain life over time. I mentioned earlier a constituent whose money available for food had gone down from £21 to £11; he just cannot cope on an ongoing basis. If the food banks do not save him, he is on the way out.
Debbie Abrahams
My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. We are not talking only about people on out-of-work benefits either, as many of the families affected are working families that are struggling to survive.
As I have mentioned, the Chancellor’s own distributional analysis shows that the cumulative impact of tax, tax credit and benefit measures means net reductions in income for the poorest 40% of households in the country. Although there is strong evidence to show, as other countries have shown, that increasing the spending power of the poorest families helps to boost economies, the Chancellor has done nothing to help them or the economy.
In the short term, the Child Poverty Action Group has estimated that between 2010 and 2015 absolute child poverty will have increased by 600,000 as a result of the Government’s spending plans. Two wards in my constituency have child poverty levels affecting nearly one in two households. That is absolutely unacceptable in a society such as ours. It leads one to question what the Government mean when they say they are committed to child poverty, let alone how they are fulfilling their obligations under the Child Poverty Act 2010.
I also have deep concerns about the impact, particularly of the new benefit changes, on people with disabilities. One in four disabled people already live in poverty, and with the recent welfare changes that is set to increase. I fear that this could be enough to drive people over the edge.
Many of us have already said that these measures are ideologically driven. In tandem with the downgrading of equality and human rights in the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill, which we debated on Tuesday, it is clear that this coalition Government have no commitment to a fairer society. As we have heard before, this is all about choices, and it is quite clear where this Government’s priorities lie. Their response to their failing economic policies is to give tax breaks to the wealthiest in society—£3 billion to more than 300,000 people earning over £150,000 a year, with an average gain of £10,000. What is there for people on low pay? Absolutely nothing. When we take the tax and tax credit benefits into account, we realise that it is not just the poor who are being hit. We know that the average loss to households for this coming financial year is £891.
The Chancellor said in last year’s autumn statement that we needed a welfare system that we could afford. Tax credits and benefits form part of the “automatic stabilisers” that help dampen economies in booms and boost them in recession. That is what we have seen. In spite of the disappointing employment figures yesterday, the effect on unemployment has been less during this recession and in the past because of these stabilisers.
The choices the Government make are underpinned by their ideology—to create an “us and them” culture with power and wealth retained by the wealthy and powerful. By attacking universal benefits such as child benefit, they hope people will start to see our welfare system as irrelevant—and then quietly dismantle it. I am proud of our model of social welfare, born out of the second world war when we literally were “all in it together”. I want to retain this model with its principles of inclusion, support and security for all, protecting any one of us, should we fall on hard times, assuring our dignity and the basics of life, and helping us all back on our feet.
It is often said that the mark of a civilised society is how we care for our most vulnerable. It is a mark of this Government, their ideological priorities and their economic incompetence that they are singularly failing to do that. Fortunately, as recent opinion polls have shown, the British public are seeing through this Government. They are exposing and seeing through the myths peddled by this Government. I shall leave it there to allow more hon. Members to participate in the debate.
Geraint Davies
Every week during Prime Minister’s Question Time the Leader of the Opposition asks why, at a time when there is so much poverty and a need for austerity, the richest in society are benefiting from a cut in the 50p income tax rate, and the Prime Minister replies, “We will raise more money from the 45p rate than from the 50p rate.” We all know why that is, and the Minister knows why it is. It is because rich people are able to manage their affairs and can move their income between tax years, and in this instance they will simply move it into the 45p year. The Minister knows that, and he also knows that if we retained the 50p rate on a sustained basis, we would gather more money.
The Minister shakes his head with a smug expression, but he knows that, and he also knows that many people already pay 52p in the pound. Those with incomes of £32,000 or £42,000 are paying 40% in tax plus 12% in national insurance. The Minister’s claim that we could not possibly have a 50p rate because all those rich people would get on their yachts and leave Britain is absolute rubbish.
Mr Gauke
Let me make two points. First, I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman has read the HMRC report on the 50p rate, but if he has, he will have seen that a large element of the loss is due to a reduction in economic activity, and has nothing to do with tax avoidance. Secondly, I am afraid that he has got his facts wrong: people stop paying 12% in national insurance contributions as soon as they reach the higher-rate threshold.
Geraint Davies
That is not my understanding. According to the Minister’s own analysis of economic activity, which he mentioned, the yield from a 50p rate would be greater over a period. The analysis factors in the behavioural change to which I have referred, namely rich people moving their incomes around. It is also the case that people are paying the rates to which I referred. I have commissioned research from the House of Commons Library. It is all very well for the Minister to sit there nodding away, but that is the fact of the matter. It is completely unjustifiable that, at a time when the incomes of some of my constituents are being reduced to about £11 a week and they are on a starvation diet, his rich friends should be enabled to have this extra money.
The Minister continues to resist calls for a bankers’ bonus tax. At one moment he claims that bankers should be taxed in that way, and at the next moment he gives them 5p back. It is absolutely preposterous. The Minister hopes that the food banks that are now emerging in their thousands will help to cope with the Dickensian circumstances that he is causing, in which people are starving in their own homes, but, as I have already pointed out, unless a supplement to the social security system is introduced such people will not be able to survive.
The Minister is pushing us into a situation in which the state is withdrawing in the hope that the charitable sector will help to sustain certain very poor communities. It is absolutely appalling. We have a dementor Government who are sucking the lifeblood out of our poorest communities. Those people want to spend their money, and would otherwise be reviving our local economies. All that they want is a chance to work, and to do a job.
We should be investing in infrastructure, skills and connectivity. We should be marketing local areas and helping businesses to succeed and create jobs, rather than taking away the demand in those local areas. We should also be promoting spending. At present everyone is saving instead of spending because they are scared of the future, but we do not want a future of fear; we want a future of hope. We do not want a future of division; we want a future that cares and a future that works. We want a “one nation” Britain, rather than a divided and weak society moving forward under the Tories.
I hope that the Minister will think again about the need for those with the broadest shoulders to make the highest contribution, rather than just smirking with his colleagues. I would guess that they—in their richer communities in the divided Britain whose divisions they are accentuating—will not have to deal with the number of people who approach our surgeries in despair, asking what they can do with the very limited amount of money that they have.
Some of the changes in the Budget are completely unnecessary. The bedroom tax was originally expected to raise £490 million. The figure has just been revised to £400 million, but in fact the tax will raise no money at all. It was supposedly intended to confront the problem of rising housing benefit costs, which have doubled over the last 10 years, but we know that 70% of that rise was due to the fact that not enough houses were being built and private-sector rents were going up. The displacement into the private sector of people who are being punished because their children have grown up will simply increase housing benefit costs further.
The Minister knows in his heart, and from the analysis, that such changes are unnecessary. They will not raise money, so why make them? Why not let the rich pay a little bit more towards the public good? Even if the bedroom tax does raise £400 million, the Minister is spending £12 billion on ever-increasing tax thresholds. While that in itself is welcome, the fact remains that these changes are about choices. If the Minister’s choice is to give the richest more and hand a bit from the very poorest to the squeezed middle, he is taking the wrong direction in terms of the prosperous and united Britain that I believe we all want to see.
Mr Gauke
Let me say something about clauses 1 and 16. Clause 1 deals with the income tax charge for 2013-14, which requires legislation every year. I assume that Labour Members will not oppose the clause, given that the legislation raises £154 billion a year. However, a few weeks ago they did oppose the income tax charge in the Budget resolutions. If they had been successful, the deficit would have increased by more than £150 billion a year. Moreover, whereas the Government have taken some 2.7 million people out of income tax, Labour would have taken about 30 million people out of it, including millionaires.
I understood the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North (Catherine McKinnell) to be opposed to clause 16. I shall say more about that shortly, but let me first comment on the three main parts of her interesting speech. She began by calling for greater economic growth in the economy. That section of her speech was followed by a part opposing the abolition of the 50p rate of income tax and containing no acknowledgment that it was an anti-growth measure which was not helping the United Kingdom to grow, was sending a signal that the UK was not open for business, and was higher than the rates imposed by many of our competitors. The third part of her speech set out her opposition to the cap on reliefs contained in clause 16 and schedule 3. [Interruption.] The hon. Lady says that concern is not opposition, but what she said sounded an awful lot like opposition to me.
Kelvin Hopkins
As the Minister may know, in Denmark the standard rate of income tax is about 30% and the higher rate is about 60%. Denmark has a very successful economy. High tax rates do not equal poor economic performance.
Mr Gauke
The fact remains that the 50p rate was higher than the rates imposed by many of our competitors. It was also considerably higher than the rate imposed by the hon. Gentleman’s party, a rate that stood at 40p for 155 of the 156 or so months during which his party was in office. I appreciate that he has always been very consistent in this regard, and I assume that he considers even the 50p rate to be too low.
Catherine McKinnell
Is the Minister seriously blaming the 50p tax rate for stagnating growth? If so, can he explain why, although the Government removed the 50p rate in this year’s Budget, the Office for Budget Responsibility has downgraded its growth forecast for each of the next three years?
Mr Gauke
We know what the big issues are with growth. We are having to deal with the aftermath of the financial crisis, the eurozone crisis, high commodity prices and the terrible fiscal situation we inherited from Labour. Having an uncompetitive top rate of income tax does not help, a point that previous Labour Governments recognised until we got to the fag end of the previous Government when, as a political ploy, the then Prime Minister put the rate up to 50p. It is striking how the Opposition will not confirm that they will return to a 50p rate.
Geraint Davies
I am grateful to the Minister for his generosity in giving way. Does he agree with the trickle-down theory, which is that if we give the rich more money the poor will eventually get a bit more? Or does he believe that it is more of a trickle-up and that if one crushes the poor, like the dementors I mentioned, one can take their money and give it to the rich, so that we have the bloated group of people whom he represents side by side with people in massive poverty?
Mr Gauke
The hon. Gentleman refers to dementors, and I am afraid that he is living in the world of fairy tales and Harry Potter with his economics. It is this Government who are taking people out of income tax and this Government who are providing support to low earners. The fact is that a 50p rate was not effective.
We heard many speeches about a tax cut for millionaires and so on. The hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North made it pretty clear that she disliked clause 16 and schedule 3, which introduce a cap on reliefs. Such reliefs exist for good reasons and can encourage certain activities and behaviours that benefit both our economy and wider society, such as entrepreneurship and investment, which help to drive growth. We are committed to supporting such activity, but that support should not be limitless, especially at a time when the priority is to balance the public finances. In the past, some individuals have been able to offset unlimited reliefs against their income to reduce their income tax bills to zero. Those are often very wealthy individuals who can end up paying a lower tax rate than the people they employ to clean their offices. That is simply not right and some individuals have been able to do that year after year.
It is right and fair that we should seek to prevent such activity by limiting uncapped reliefs. That is what clause 16 and schedule 3 do: they cap the use of previously unlimited income tax reliefs at £50,000 or 25% of an individual’s income, whichever is the greater. The cap came into effect on 6 April this year. The changes will affect only around 7,500 individuals and more than 90% of the revenue will come from those with an income of more than £150,000—that is, those who pay the additional rate of income tax. The limit is expected to raise about £200 million a year, significantly more than the cost of reducing the 50% rate down to 45%.
One question that has been asked is whether the provision will hurt start-ups and SMEs. Some 90% of trading losses set against general income in a tax year are less than £15,000 a year, well below the threshold for the cap. Business loss reliefs are not intended to subsidise businesses that have no chance of success. We have a generous regime, but we do not believe that it should be without limit. Unlimited reliefs mean that some people, often with high incomes, can pay little or no income tax year on year. We do not believe that that is fair. There will be no limit on trade or property losses set against profits from the same trade or property business in another year and business loss reliefs are not intended to subsidise established businesses that make losses year after year.
Catherine McKinnell
Can the Minister provide reassurance that he has taken on board the concerns raised by a number of accountancy organisations, whose opinions are very reputable, that the change will not only counteract the clamping down that the Government are correctly introducing but hamper the growth of genuine small businesses that are struggling? I would say that those businesses are struggling because of the Chancellor’s failing economic plan.
Mr Gauke
Of course, we have consulted on this policy and have listened very carefully to the representations we have received. If we are serious about raising revenue in a way that does not damage the economy, the cap on reliefs is a sensible approach. It is a matter of fairness and I would have thought that hon. Members from all parties would agree that it is wrong for us to have a system whereby people can drive down their tax bill year after year to very low rates despite being high earners. That is exactly what this measure is about.
The measure demonstrates that as a Government we are doing more to raise money from the wealthy. In Budget 2010, we increased higher rate capital gains tax; in Budget 2011, we tackled avoidance through disguised remuneration, which was opposed by the Opposition; in Budget 2012, we raised stamp duty on high-value homes; in the autumn statement 2012, we took action to reduce the cost of pensions tax relief; and in Budget 2013 we announced further measures to tackle offshore tax evasion by high earners. Under this Government, the richest now pay more in income tax than in any year under Labour.
Amendment 1 requests a review, and HMRC published a thorough and very well-researched report at Budget 2012 that showed the effect of the additional rate of income tax. Those matters were debated at considerable length last year and the report shows that the rate was not raising the money that the previous Government intended it to raise. It is illogical to maintain a tax rate that is not effective at raising revenue from high earners and that risks damaging growth. We have found better ways of raising money from the wealthy that raise more money but do less damage to the economy.
We always keep tax rates under review, but I note the inclusion of a request for a review in the amendment. It seems to me that the purpose of the amendment is not just to enable us to have another debate on the 50p rate today but to enable the Labour party to find an escape route from its policy. Until a few days ago, it was against getting rid of the 50p rate. Labour will not answer the question, however, of what it will do at the next election. Its holding position is clearly that it will have a review. The Labour party knows that to go into the next election campaigning for an increase to the 50p rate would simply underline that it is anti-enterprise. It knows such an increase would damage the economy and is trying to find an escape route. Despite all the bluster in all the speeches we have heard today, Labour will not confirm that that is the policy it supports. It is all about posturing, not about practicality. That is why they did not have a 50p rate when they were in government and why they are trying to slip away from it now, hoping that no one will notice. I recommend that clauses 1 and 16 and schedule three stand part of the Bill and we hope that they will have all-party support.
Catherine McKinnell
I thank the Minister for his response and the completely fictional rewriting of HMRC’s report on the impact of the 50p rate of tax, which showed very clearly that it brought in additional revenue of about £1.1 billion. Who knows how much more it might have brought in had the Government not abolished it at such an early stage, before there was even the opportunity to collect the data that would have given a picture of the longer-term impact?
We will press amendment 1 to a vote, and we are asking for a proper review of the impact of the 50p rate of tax so that members of the public can know the truth about the amount of revenue it would have brought in had this Government not opted to give a tax cut to millionaires while letting ordinary people bear the brunt of the Chancellor’s utterly failing economic plan.
Question put, That the amendment be made.
The Temporary Chair (Mr Jim Hood)
I call Catherine Jamieson to move the motion.
Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
Thank you, Mr Hood, for using my full name. My mother will be most impressed, as she is the only other person on the planet who addresses me as “Catherine”, rather than Cathy. She will be delighted.
I am sure that many Government Members are interested in the rate of VAT and perhaps rather relieved that they are not in the same frenzy over it that they were when we debated the Finance Bill this time last year. I see some hon. Members agreeing, because I think that we all learned far more than we ever wanted to about ambient temperatures, pasties and the impact of the VAT proposals on not only hot food, but caravans, churches, sports nutrition products and so on. Perhaps Government Members will be more relieved to talk about our VAT proposals.
We have tabled new clause 2 because, as has been said in earlier debates, we have concerns about the rising cost of living and its impact on ordinary people. In the last debate we heard many passionate speeches from Opposition Members, particularly on how the rising cost of living is impacting on their constituents, and I was struck by the number of Members who referred to constituents having to rely more and more on food banks. Having moved on from the debate on hot food, it is sad that we are now talking about more people having to rely on food handouts. Those handouts, of course, show the generosity of many people in our local communities, and I applaud them for the work they are doing, but surely in this day and age people should not have to rely on such initiatives.
Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con)
Can the hon. Lady tell me her definition of the “strong growth” that her new clause says would trigger VAT being put up again?
Cathy Jamieson
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his intervention. Given that I have not really got under way with all the details of the new clause, I will come to those points later. However, I will say that one thing we know is that the Office for Budget Responsibility has halved the growth forecast for this year and downgraded it again for next year, so we are not in a situation of strong growth. The Government really have to take responsibility for that, because since the Chancellor’s spending review in 2010 the UK economy has grown by just 0.7%, compared with the 5.3% forecast at the time. I do not think that anyone could suggest that that was particularly successful. Last year, of course, the UK went through a double-dip recession and the economy shrank by 0.3% in the last quarter.
Mr Redwood
The hon. Lady is quite right that growth has been very disappointing and that the forecasts have been revised downwards, but we are debating her policy, which is that VAT should go up again when the UK economy returns to “strong growth.” It is a very simple question: can she tell us what strong growth would trigger an increase in VAT?
Cathy Jamieson
As I have indicated to the right hon. Gentleman, whose views I listen to and who always raises pertinent questions, I will come to that, but the Government must also take responsibility for, as we heard in the previous debate, trying to give all sorts of reasons why the economy has not recovered. As my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North (Catherine McKinnell) suggested, we were surprised to hear that the latest reason given seems to be the issue of the 50p tax rate, rather than looking at the situation in the round. I want to talk a little more about some of the issues that the economy currently faces and why we think our proposal is one way of stimulating the economy and looking to the future in order to help local businesses.
Stewart Hosie
I am broadly sympathetic to the proposal, which could stimulate the economy significantly, but VAT brings in about £100 billion a year, so the question the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood) asks is valid. Does “strong growth” mean consistently positive growth and, if so, at what level and for how long, or would it require a return to trend growth of about 2.5% and, if so, for how long, or would it require above-trend growth and, if so, for how long? To have an open-ended commitment to lose potentially £10 million a year for some years would be quite a serious and significant thing, irrespective of the positive impact it might have.
The Temporary Chair (Mr Jim Hood)
Order. I say to the hon. Gentleman, in case he is going to make any further interventions, that he should make them a bit shorter and get straight to the point.
Cathy Jamieson
I am interested to hear that the hon. Gentleman has some sympathy with our proposal—I suspect that we might not have the same agreement over some of the other issues up for debate today. He raises important issues. That is why, through new clause 2, we want to ensure that a report would be produced. We are calling on the Government to do that now, rather than put it off into the future. The Government could put in place monitoring measures now; that would allow for a temporary VAT cut, which would help stimulate the economy.
Borrowing to pay for the cost of economic failure has risen—it is now forecast to be £245 billion more than planned at the time of the spending review. That, of course, excludes the one-off transfers of the Royal Mail pension fund and asset purchase facilities. The Government are not going to balance the books by 2015 as the Prime Minister promised. National debt as a percentage of GDP is not now forecast to start falling until 2017-18. It is important to remember that, as it breaks one of the Government’s own fiscal rules.
As this week’s labour market statistics show, halfway through a Parliament, Britain is still being scarred by rising unemployment, an issue raised in earlier debates by many hon. Members, who brought attention to what was happening in their constituencies in the real world.
Not only are more people unemployed than at the election, but the number is rising. Earlier, my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North referred to the rising numbers: 70,000 more people are on the dole now than last month; long-term unemployment has risen yet again; and, most damagingly of all, the next generation is paying the brutal price, with youth unemployment up yet again, by 20,000.
People are no longer giving the Chancellor the benefit of the doubt. I think I said that about this time during last year’s debate; I felt that at that stage the public were beginning to lose confidence in the Chancellor’s economic strategy. This week, we have to take note of what the International Monetary Fund’s chief economist said:
“In the face of very weak private demand, it may be time to consider adjusting the original fiscal consolidation plan”.
Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con)
I am following the hon. Lady’s speech with interest and read the new clause with greater interest. She really has not addressed the issue raised by the hon. Member for Dundee East (Stewart Hosie). The new clause represents a spending commitment. Given that she is not able to specify what “strong growth” means, how will she fill the fiscal gap? Will she increase another tax, and if so which one? Alternatively, which departmental budget would be cut to pay for the measure?
Cathy Jamieson
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. We argue that the new clause would be part of a package of measures. We have heard about other initiatives that could be brought forward, and it is important to recognise that others in industry and business are also saying that one way to stimulate the economy would be to introduce at least a temporary cut in VAT. There are serious questions to be asked about the other issues, but if we could get unanimity about this issue, it might be possible for the Government to consider it and bring forward further proposals.
In the Budget, the Government had the opportunity to change course, make the necessary changes and kick-start the economy. Sadly, however, more and more commentators are reflecting that all we got was more of the same from the downgraded Chancellor. As a result, the cost of living for people up and down the country is rising day by day. The economy is flatlining, inflation remains high and food bills are rising. Energy bills are soaring, thanks to the Government’s failure to break the stranglehold of the big six energy companies. The Office for Budget Responsibility’s most recent figures show that people will be worse off in 2015 than when the Government came to office.
The reality for people is that real wages are now £17,000 a year smaller than they were in 2010. To add to that hardship, any benefit that hard-working people might have received from the Government’s much trumpeted rise in the personal allowance has been uniformly swept aside by the raft of tax and benefit changes that the Government have made since 2010. Those changes mean that families will be an average of £891 worse off in the new financial year, according to the analysis of figures made by the independent Institute for Fiscal Studies—even more money out of the pockets of hard-working people up and down the country.
The truth is that even if those tax and benefit changes had never happened, any benefit from the rise of the personal allowance would have been wiped out by the Government’s 2011 VAT rise from 17.5% to 20% alone. Research from the TUC confirms that by the time of the next election, families of all incomes will lose more from the VAT rise than they will gain from the increase in the personal allowance and the changes to national insurance, with low-paid workers losing up to four times more per year from the Government’s increase in VAT than they will gain from the raising of the personal tax allowance to £10,000.
Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con)
I understand that times are tough, partly because we have to try to bring the economy together after the last Labour Government. The hon. Lady said that individuals are £17,000 worse off than they were. I cannot understand that. Has she added on too many noughts, or what?
Cathy Jamieson
I intended to say £1,700; if I said £17,000, I apologise. Obviously, Mr Hood, I need to put my spectacles on when I read the numbers. I am glad that the hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Neil Parish) is accepting my apology.
Cathy Jamieson
I want to make a bit more progress. I come back to the point raised by the hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton about times being hard and the idea that somehow the problem is to clear up the mess left behind, as he described it. People out there in the real world are getting tired of hearing that same old mantra. The Government have responsibility for what is happening now. They have to take responsibility for policy decisions taken in Budgets that impact on the lives of ordinary people.
I go back to the research from the TUC. Some Government Members may look sceptical about it, but I assure them that many ordinary people in my constituency and those of my hon. Friends recognise the value of the work that the TUC and trade unions are doing in standing up for those finding that their individual and collective incomes are being affected.
The TUC research considers the impact of direct and indirect tax changes over the Parliament. It shows that a household with an average weekly income of £195.92, the lowest income band for working people, will gain £1.09 a week—that figure is underlined, so I have not made an error—from the above-inflation rise in the personal allowance by 2015. However, and importantly, the same family will lose £4.26 a week through the increase in VAT, which went up in January 2011, leaving them with a total annual loss of £164.84 as a result of the Government’s tax policy.
Many on the Government Benches may say, “Well, that is not a huge amount.” I repeat what I have said in previous debates: it may not be a huge amount for someone with a decent job and income—I include all of us here in that—but it is a huge amount for those trying to have a reasonable standard of living and ensure that their families have food on the table and that their kids have clothes.
Cathy Jamieson
I give way first to the hon. Gentleman and then to my hon. Friend.
Mr Jackson
The hon. Lady is being most generous in giving way. Surely it is churlish of her not to concede that most independent specialists, such as the Institute for Fiscal Studies, have said that as a result of the fiscal changes since 2010 the biggest impact has been felt among the richest 10% of earners in the country. Is it not fair to put that on the record, too?
Cathy Jamieson
I hope I am not being churlish in hoping that the hon. Gentleman will understand that most of those independent commentators also point to what is happening to those on the lowest incomes. Opposition Members feel strongly that those people are taking a disproportionate share. It is not a case of, “We’re all in it together.” When ordinary people see millionaires and those on the highest incomes getting a tax break or a tax cut, it seems unfair to them that their wages or incomes are hit hard by the Government’s policies.
Cathy Jamieson
I will take my hon. Friend’s intervention before I forget about him.
Andrew Gwynne
My hon. Friend is absolutely right to call for an assessment of the cost of living. Does she accept, though, that it should not be restricted to the impact of the fiscal changes announced in the Budget but should look more widely at the effect on families of expenses such as increasing fuel prices, increasing transport costs, and interest payments on payday loans?
Cathy Jamieson
My hon. Friend makes a valuable point. So that I cannot be accused of being churlish, let me say that we did welcome the action taken on fuel duty, but if VAT were reduced, as we are suggesting, that would provide a further reduction in fuel costs, which would make a difference to families.
My hon. Friend mentioned payday loans. Many people will be hard hit, with not only those out of work but those in work now finding it much more difficult to manage from month to month. The worry is that many more might feel the need to try to get such loans, believing that they will help but finding themselves further caught in a downward spiral. This is a very serious problem. In my constituency in the past couple of weeks, I have heard about people in that situation, which will be very familiar to other hon. Members. Perhaps equally worryingly, I have heard people say that they fear the impact of the bedroom tax will mean that, for the very first time, they might have to rely on food banks. The saddest aspect is that many of them will not be able to do that over an extended period because food banks are supposed to deal with the crisis points rather than sustaining people, and perhaps folk have not yet fully understood that. They are clutching at any hope to try to maintain their standard of living. James Plunkett, the director of policy at the Resolution Foundation, has stated:
“The squeeze will look worse over the next few years than previously feared”.
With all that going on, it is no wonder that working people feel that their lives are going backwards, because they are.
All this has had an undeniable and damaging knock-on impact on our economy and on our high streets and businesses up and down the country. That is why, for over a year and a half, Labour has been calling on the Government temporarily to reverse VAT back down to 17.5%. That would put about £450 back into the pockets of a couple with children, help to ease the squeeze on our constituents, and give our economy a much-needed stimulus. That is why we are calling for it again today. When consumers have less cash in their pockets, our high streets, local businesses and economy suffer. These are tough times for businesses.
Mr Iain McKenzie (Inverclyde) (Lab)
My hon. Friend has noted a number of ways in which people are suffering up and down the country. Does she agree that society suffers the most when the gap widens between rich and poor, that we are now seeing it stretched to the absolute limit, and that the Government either do not recognise that or choose not to do so?
Cathy Jamieson
My hon. Friend is a powerful advocate for the people in his constituency who are bearing the brunt of the Government’s policies, and he is absolutely right. It is important that there is no further widening of that gap. This is not just about the money in people’s pockets, important though that is, but the fabric of society and the relationships that people build in their local communities.
It is important to consider the impact on our high streets. For generations, local businesses have offered jobs and the convenience of shopping in the local high street, and have been involved in providing services there. They are now under pressure from the flatlining economy. Consumer spending has been constrained by high inflation and stagnant wages, leading to a 6% fall in real disposable income in 2008, with a devastating impact on our local high streets. Shops are lying empty, with a threefold increase in that trend since 2008. Household names such as HMV, JJB Sports, Blockbusters and Comet have been forced to close a large number of stores or to shut up shop completely. It is estimated that last year 1,800 shops were forced to close—a staggering tenfold increase on the year before. We have heard about the impact on the pub industry, and there has been a call for the VAT rate to be considered in that context.
Not only is retail suffering, but businesses of all kinds up and down the country are feeling the impact of the Government’s failed economic policies and the flatlining economy. That has led, and is still leading, to a lack of confidence, particularly in the construction sector, with many arguing that more must be done to get people back to work and to get projects under way. Sadly, Project Merlin did not deliver the new era of loans that it was supposed to. We learned this week that lending to UK businesses fell by £2 billion in December alone, and it is down by £18.6 billion over the past year, while businesses continue to suffer. The Business Secretary seems perhaps finally to be recognising this failure. He boasted at his party conference that he would set up a Government-backed bank to get billions of pounds to businesses that need it, but we are still awaiting the fine detail of what that bank will do and when and how businesses will be helped. They may well have to wait some time for it to be up and running.
I shall draw my remarks to a conclusion because I want to give other hon. Members the opportunity to raise issues on behalf of their constituents and put the case to the Government. There are things we can do to help businesses and individuals through these tough times. We could reform the funding for lending scheme so that banks can access the lowest rates of funding only if they increase lending to businesses as well as overall lending, and extend it beyond the end of 2013, as currently envisaged by the Government, to the end of 2014. Let us do what every other G8 economy has done and set up a state-backed investment institution to provide credit to small businesses where others will not by establishing a proper British investment bank. As we have argued, that could be done through a new network of regional banks like the German Sparkassen. That would also help to return SMEs to a local relationship with banking, with managers who know what is needed on the ground and have the discretion to make local lending decisions. Regional banks are committed to their regions and in touch with local business. We have called for, and will continue to call for, the Government to bring forward these measures to help boost our businesses and get our economy moving again.
Even if the Government accepted all those proposals and they were acted on today, the benefits would take some time to come to the fore and to be felt. However, the one step we could take now that would immediately make a difference would be for the Government to agree to reduce VAT to 17.5% to put money back into the pockets of hard-working people and give a stimulus to local economies. That would put something back into the pot to help the local businesses we have talked about, whether by reducing fuel costs or stimulating the economy such that people feel that they are able to spend again. We need to get consumers back out there spending their money, supporting our high streets and businesses, and helping our economy to grow again. It is for the Government to explain to the people of the UK why they will not listen to the arguments that have been advanced and are not prepared to take this action as a stimulus to the economy and to help to get things moving again.
Mr Redwood
The proposed new clause is designed to stimulate strong growth, which I suspect everyone in this House would welcome. I trust that the Government are in the market for ideas that would stimulate strong growth, but my sad conclusion is that a sudden cut in VAT of undefined duration is neither a sufficient condition for stimulating strong growth in the economy nor even a necessary precondition of such stimulation.
We have to ask what the alternative is to the Opposition’s recommendation, which we all agree is well-intended because they wish to see strong growth. I submit that the prime thing the Government need to do to raise the growth rate and get over this period of extremely disappointing performance is mend the banks. It is surprising that the official forecasters at the Office for Budget Responsibility thought there would be strong growth over the past three years, because they knew that the official policy on the Royal Bank of Scotland, which is largely state owned, was to push the bank through the most enormous slim-down, a continuation of the policy begun in 2008 when it was largely acquired by the state under the previous Government.
So far, £900 billion of assets and liabilities have been removed from RBS’s £2.2 trillion balance sheet since the state foolishly took them on. How can we expect the British economy to grow rapidly when its leading bank is going through a forced slimming programme of £900 billion? This is big money, even for a £1.5 trillion economy. We spend most of our time in this place discussing the odd £5 billion or £10 billion—we are now billionaires in our discussions rather than millionaires— but these figures have very little overall impact on a £1.5 trillion economy, whereas £900 billion is eye-poppingly large. We have to deal in trillions now if we want to see the things that really make a difference to the economy. I submit that the main reason why our economy is not growing rapidly is that the banks, led by RBS and abetted by HBOS, have been on a very sharp slimming programme. It is true that some of those assets were foreign and a lot of them were derivatives and so on, but overall, this massive slimming programme has clearly placed enormous pressure on the UK economy.
In addition, this place, as part of the political debate, has discovered that bankers are even more unpopular than politicians, so it has taken great delight in trying to do as much damage as possible to the banking industry. I understand that the banking industry did not do well for itself—I am enough of a politician to realise the politics of all this—but if we target one of our biggest and most successful industries of the previous decade and force it into slimming down measures and tax it more, we should expect a drop in output, and that is what has happened. One of the reasons why we do not have much growth in this country is that our lead sector of the previous decade has taken such a big hit and is now so politically unpopular that pressures remain to prevent it from growing and recovering as some of us would like.
A third area that has caused considerable problems is oil and gas. We cannot legislate to change the age profile of our reservoirs, many of which have aged a lot recently in terms of the amount of oil and gas left to exploit. There are arguments about other tax policies we could pursue to stimulate more finds and exploitation, but some of the big, successful reservoirs of previous years are now ageing, so whoever was running the country was going to experience a reduction in output from another of our high-value-added sectors—oil and gas—and that was bound to hit the growth rate.
What more can we do to overcome those difficulties in two of our lead sectors? Tax measures proposed by other clauses that we will discuss later could be helpful. Broadly speaking, the lower the tax rate, the better from the point of view of stimulating growth, and there have been some measures in the right direction.
The problem with the proposed new clause’s VAT measure is that it is so expensive and I do not think we would get a big enough return for the colossal loss of revenue that it would cause. We have already heard an estimate of about £10 billion, but the Labour Opposition have given us no figures whatsoever. They have not told us how much it would cost, how long it would be a concessionary rate and on what conditions they would return to the new rate. That weakens their case, because if they wish to make this a serious policy, they need to cost it and explain by how much the deficit would rise in the early stages and at what point the growth would accelerate enough to start to generate serious revenues from increased activity.
The evidence seems to be that, whereas it is possible to do serious damage to the revenues generated by income tax and capital gains tax if the rates are put up too much—I fear that that is what has happened under the Labour and coalition Governments in recent years—it is more difficult to depress the revenues of VAT. Indeed, the increase from 17.5% to 20% actually produced some increase in revenue, despite the poor performance of the economy, so the argument that cutting the rate generates more revenue—economists call it the Laffer curve argument—does not apply in the same way as it does to taxes geared towards gains and income, whereby more realistic rates would do two good things, namely generate more growth and, therefore, more tax revenue. I fear that the problem with the VAT proposal is that this short-term measure would definitely increase the deficit and that the stimulus from VAT would not be sufficient to replace the lost revenue in any serious period of time over which this experiment might be tried.
Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)
I always listen with interest to what the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood) has to say in these debates and he has been very consistent about low taxation over a number of years. I agree with him that external factors such as banking and energy costs are suppressing growth in our country, but I also think that the domestic economy needs a boost and he did not offer any solutions. Small businesses on our high streets are all asking for help from the Government and I believe that the proposed new clause would help them. Money is being taken out of the economy at a time when we need to be putting money back into it.
Mr Redwood
The hon. Gentleman makes a fair criticism of my remarks, but to stay in order I did not mention the changes to energy policy necessary to have cheaper energy or the changes to other taxes that I would like implemented to boost to the economy.
Albert Owen
As a member of the Energy and Climate Change Committee, I understand the difficulties. I realise that one of the major problems—the price of crude oil and gas—is external and that we could have a wider debate about that, but I am talking specifically about the need to boost the domestic economy.
Small businesses tell me that high street names are folding, first, because they have tight margins, and secondly because, although footfall might be steady, people are spending less money. The 2.5% increase in VAT is making a real difference and taking money out of people’s pockets. I support raising personal income tax thresholds as a way of helping the low-paid, but it can have no impact if cancelled out by a VAT increase. That is what business tells us. A small business leader in my area makes a little joke about the Chancellor: every time that that business leader goes out with his wife, daughter and son-in-law, he has to take the Chancellor with him, because one-fifth of the bill is shared with him. That is not a good state of affairs. If business people are starting to think like that, it means that confidence has been eroded. One way of providing the necessary boost to confidence in the domestic market would be to reduce VAT temporarily.
Those are not just my words; they were also the words of the Prime Minister before the general election, when he said that VAT was a regressive tax, which it is. I am in full agreement with him. The Deputy Prime Minister—there are not many Liberal Democrats here today—said that putting up VAT during a recession would be a bombshell for the economy, yet that is exactly what the Government have done. I have argued consistently for keeping VAT, which is a regressive tax, as low as possible in order to stimulate the economy.
Mr Robin Walker
I admire the hon. Gentleman’s consistency, but does he accept that this was a matter of debate during the general election because the then Labour Chancellor was clearly preparing to raise VAT to 20%, as he has subsequently admitted? It is wrong to imply that his party has been as consistent as him.
Albert Owen
That argument is completely wrong. It might be Conservative central office’s take on it. The previous Chancellor suggested a VAT rise, but was outvoted by the Cabinet. He was just one individual. The current Prime Minister, however, was clear that he would not put it up, but then did. The hon. Gentleman cannot accuse the previous Chancellor of making an argument and then blame the last Government for not listening to him. It was the leader of the Conservative party, now the Prime Minister, who turned circles on this issue.
This regressive taxation hits the most vulnerable in our society. According to the Office for National Statistics, 9.7% of the money the poorest 20% spend goes on VAT, and they spend more on VATable goods than the richest 20%, for whom that figure is 5.8%. It is an unfair tax, as well as one that takes money out of the economy.
The Conservatives have been consistent in shifting from direct to indirect personal taxation. It was Anthony Barber who introduced VAT, at 10% I think, and a later Chancellor, in 1979, who raised it from 8% to 15%, which had a negative effect for many years. In 1984, it went up to 17.5%. As I said, in opposition, the Conservatives said that they would not do this, yet it was one of the first things they did. They are not getting the revenue yield they expected, because the economy is in such dire straits—it is stagnating, in many ways. My hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson) talked about wage freezes and other impacts of Government policy. With a policy of reducing VAT, the Government could actually do something, instead of blaming the previous Government, the European Union or other external factors. Here is an opportunity for them to use one of the levers of power at their disposal.
I hope that the Liberal Democrats will support us. They have made such a big issue of it in the past. There is only one Liberal Democrat here today, the hon. Member for Eastleigh (Mike Thornton), but I would be happy to take an intervention from him, if he feels as strongly as his party did—not him personally—before the general election. It is a big issue. I talk to small businesses, and they tell me that the rate of VAT is having a negative impact on their businesses. Everyone in the House wants to stimulate the economy, and here is a way of doing it relatively quickly.
There is evidence that along with other measures—it cannot be seen in isolation—the previous Government’s VAT reduction from 17.5% to 15% actually helped the economy at a difficult time. The car scrappage and other short-term schemes were also introduced to boost the economy. The Government should be considering those sorts of things, rather than just blaming others. The economy is at a difficult juncture. Unemployment is rising again, after temporarily falling: 2.54 million people are on the dole—that is mass unemployment—and are not spending. Helping them, with their small incomes, by reducing VAT would have a big impact on the economy. The way forward is to create more jobs and get them back to work.
The Government have said—I am sure that the Minister will clarify this matter—that it is not possible to reduce VAT, but that is not the case. I have heard them mention on numerous occasions a mechanism by which Europe can prevent them from reducing VAT, but it could be done as a temporary measure. There are also many variations, zero-rating exemptions and concessions that could be applied to VAT.
Mr Gauke
I want to help the hon. Gentleman on this point. There is flexibility when it comes to reducing the rate, but the difficulty is that if one plucks a particular item, such as petrol, and reduces VAT on that alone, as his party advocated, it would need to be consistent with the VAT directives and that would require a derogation, which would take some years. The concerns we raised related to the ill-thought-out specific proposal that those on his party’s Front Bench put forward a year or so ago.
Albert Owen
I am grateful for that clarification. I recall that Labour Front Benchers said at the time that the proposal was specific to one thing, but this is a flexible measure. We can exempt certain goods from it. Yes, there are the European directives, but we could do this immediately and in doing so send out a positive message to the country and the business community and increase footfall in our shops and high streets.
The argument about reducing tax and increasing yields is perfectly legitimate. Some say that reducing corporation tax automatically boosts business, but it also results in a drop-off in the money that the Treasury takes. Nevertheless, it seems to be a favourite of the Conservatives, and I, too, support it. I support having a low-tax economy and reducing many of these taxes, but we should be consistent and do the same with VAT. The increase in it was supposed to raise several billions of pounds, but it has failed to do so because spending has fallen.
I support the proposal to reduce VAT. Action is need and needed now. The Chancellor could do it, and if he wanted to, he could do it straightaway. I accept that the poorest in the country, on the lowest wages, will benefit from the change to income tax thresholds, but they will lose out overall. The TUC is not alone in making this point. The Institute for Fiscal Studies has said that the combined tax increases, of which there have been several, both direct and indirect, will make the average family £900 worse off. If families are worse off in this country, spending is reduced and the economy is bound to contract. That is basic economics. We need to stimulate the economy, and one way of doing it correctly is to reduce VAT temporarily from 20% to 17.5%. Let us get the economy moving. The Chancellor has the power to do it, and he should support the new clause.
Mr Stewart Jackson
It is always a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen). I am not sure that it is necessarily a pleasure for the Whips, because the Committee will know that in the last Budget I was not exactly that supportive of my party on VAT, having opposed VAT on caravans and, by virtue of my being the Member of Parliament for Peterborough, on ecclesiastical buildings.
Sheila Gilmore
Would the hon. Gentleman like to comment on the numerous observations and reports suggesting that, in fact, capital is available? Many businesses have capital available; the reason it is not being used to invest is that there is low demand in our economy.
Mr Jackson
The hon. Lady anticipates my next point. By any respectable indicators over the past few years, the cash reserves that British business has for investment are enormous. The issue is business confidence. To develop that point, parts of the economy are doing significantly better than others and have not been affected by this cyclical change, which has lasted since the onset of the Northern Rock crisis of 2007-08 and the wider banking crisis.
I am a Conservative, so of course I am in favour of tax cuts. Would that we were in a position to have a tax cut by virtue of the Opposition’s new clause 2, but let us make no bones about it: it is an unfunded tax cut—if it walks like a duck and swims like a duck, it is a duck. I always thought that Labour’s credo in recent times was not to support unfunded tax cuts. With all due respect to the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson), who is a very competent, proficient performer at the Dispatch Box, she failed to answer the points raised by me and the hon. Member for Dundee East (Stewart Hosie) and say where the money would come from. We are talking about £100 billion of indicative funding, which has to be found from somewhere. It is all very well saying, “We’re going to have a progress report at the end of this Parliament to see how things are going,” but once we put in place that tax cut, we would cut off that income stream. We would then have to find other ways to fund core expenditure.
Albert Owen
I hear what the hon. Gentleman is saying, but he referred to a figure of £100 billion, which is the total VAT take. We will not lose all of it: there will be a 2.5% reduction.
Albert Owen
Yes, a 10% reduction. The hon. Gentleman is talking about losing that, but unemployment is going up—these are the factors—and we will be paying more out of the Treasury for those things. We are talking about stimulating the economy, which I understand is difficult to quantify, but it would be positive.
Mr Jackson
The hon. Gentleman might say that, but it is incumbent on Her Majesty’s loyal Opposition to specify the amounts and where the cuts would be made in other ways. It is not acceptable to dodge the issue, and that goes even for the simple question of what is “strong growth”. At what stage would that be measured? How would we quantify “strong growth”? It is rather mealy-mouthed.
Let us look at the wider context. Interest rates are historically low. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman is not old enough—or maybe he is—to know that in 1975 they were 27%, under a Labour Government. Inflation was substantially higher through most of the ’70s and ’80s. We now have big cash balances, lower interest rates, relatively low inflation, lots of money in the economy and quantitative easing, which has been in place for many years. Even if we accept the traditional Keynesian view—that just pumping money into the economy will deliver growth, jobs and prosperity, which seemed to inform the argument that the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun made—we should accept that it has not worked so far through quantitative easing, with the balances that are available. The issue is business confidence.
In the wider context—wider even than that—between 2000 and 2010, public expenditure rose from roughly £450 billion to more than £700 billion. That is the context in which we should look at these fiscal changes. It is not as if we have starved the economy of money in the public sector. The difficulty for the hon. Member for Ynys Môn in arguing in defence of the Government at that time is that the economy was so unbalanced. It was focused disproportionately on the housing market, public expenditure and financial services. Part of our challenge as a Government is to try to rebalance the economy, so that it can make people prosperous and create jobs across wider economic activities, which is happening organically on its own.
Those on the Opposition Front Bench also fail to take into account the other, bigger policies that the Government have embarked on. I will not pretend that things such as the national insurance holidays or the regional growth fund have been an enormous success. I serve on the Public Accounts Committee and we have been critical of things that the Government have pursued in some areas. Nevertheless—the hon. Gentleman alluded to this—the Government are looking at tariffs for utility bills, the beer duty escalator and the fuel duty escalator. We are looking at substantial changes that will have a fiscal impact on welfare, through the universal credit and so on making work pay, rather than paying for idleness and allowing people’s talents to be wasted. We are also putting money into the mortgage market and assisting new house building. Some 42,000 of my constituents had a tax cut last week as a result of the massive fiscal changes that this Government have made, with 2,000 of my constituents paying no tax at all and 24 million people affected. It seems rather unfair not to take that on board.
I also alluded earlier to the progressive nature of our tax changes. Whatever we say about them, it cannot be argued that we have not looked at the top 5% or 10% of income earners in this country to ensure that they are paying a significantly higher share than others. They are the people who will specifically be more worse off than anyone else, whether the hon. Gentleman likes it or not.
Mr Redwood
It is unfair to say that VAT is a very regressive tax. If it were applied across everything, it would be, but because it does not apply to food and some other items that figure much more highly in low-income budgets, it is not nearly as regressive as has been suggested.
Mr Jackson
Exactly. We could argue at length about the progressiveness of various taxes—no doubt others would want to—but my right hon. Friend makes an astute point.
The final example is council tax. That depends on the local authority, but in general, most councils have frozen council tax. Therefore, the suite or portfolio of the Government’s fiscal changes that have helped working people is quite significant.
Let me say in finishing that we expect more from an Opposition two and a half years into a Parliament. We expect them to come up with policies that are credible. We expect them to move on from policies that just tick the box of opposition. No doubt the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun, who is well connected in the Labour party, will have read the comments of Tony Blair, a three-time election winner, in the 100th anniversary edition of the New Statesman. He cautions the Labour party not to fall back into the comfort zone, not to be a repository of anger, but to be an outward-looking, forward-looking progressive party. I am sure that the Labour Whip on the Front Bench, the hon. Member for Sedgefield (Phil Wilson), would agree with his predecessor and say that that is sage and intelligent advice. It is so because we expect proper, costed policies. What we have had today is an unfunded tax cut that does not help the people I believe the Labour party genuinely wants to assist to have a better life. I would caution the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun to come back with more coherent, more intelligent and more credible policies. That is why I will not support new clause 2.
Alex Cunningham
Some Members have chosen to talk about billions of pounds. I will speak about the odd pound and the odd penny, because that is what makes the difference to many of the people I represent.
The cost of living is one of the defining issues of this Parliament not only because of what the Government are doing but because of what they are not doing. Following the announcement yesterday of a huge increase in unemployment—12,000 in the north-east of England—in the last hour, we have learnt that another 160 jobs are going at SABIC, a pharmaceuticals company on Teesside. That is not good news.
The Chancellor’s VAT hike has been shown to be a mistake and it is hitting the vulnerable and those on the lower end of the income scale the hardest. Yes, one of the millionaires who uses his £100,000 tax cut under this Government will pay more VAT than the vast majority of other people when he buys himself a luxury car, but that will not make the difference to whether or not he can buy an extra loaf of bread or a pound of mince for his family’s evening meal. A cut in VAT of 2.5% may just buy some extra peanuts when the banker buys his champagne to celebrate his latest million-pound bonus, but it is the people earning peanuts for working hard to support their families who can put the extra pound or two from a cut to good use.
The previous Labour Government showed that that works when they temporarily reduced VAT to 15%. The reduced tax on sales provided an effective stimulus to the economy. Likewise, a VAT hike was always going to suppress consumption, and hit ordinary families in places such as my Stockton North constituency hard.
Jonathan Edwards
As the hon. Gentleman is aware, the rise came in the emergency Budget in 2010. There was a vote on the rise and the Labour party abstained. Can he explain the voting record of the Labour party?
Alex Cunningham
That is a very difficult question to answer but easy enough to ask. I regret that that happened.
The Chancellor once spoke of the liberal credentials of his public school, so he could change and understand a bit more about the people out there. At the time, The Guardian quoted him talking about St Paul’s. He suggested that everyone was treated the same and said:
“It didn't matter who your parents were. Your mother could be the head of a giant corporation—or a solicitor in Kew”.
I have news for the Chancellor. Contrary to his blinkered view, solicitors and captains of industry do not encompass the full imaginable spectrum of socio-economic status. Not everyone out there can absorb VAT increases and not notice the difference. One has to add teachers, police, social workers, canteen cleaners, domestic staff, joiners, bricklayers, call centre staff, health care assistants and so many more to one’s list of acquaintances if one is really to understand the impact of his policies on people.
The statistics speak for themselves. The impact of the VAT increase will cost the lowest-paid workers four times more than any gain from the £10,000 personal allowance, when it is introduced in 2014. Like other Labour Members, I approve of the allowance being at that level. It is good that hard-working families can get extra money, but when the Government take it away with the other hand and people end up paying more, that is not a good thing.
Food prices are also up. I know it has probably been a long time since the Chancellor has nipped around the supermarket to do his weekly shop, if he ever has done so, but if he did so regularly he would see that food and other grocery shop prices are somewhat higher than he imagined and, for many items, way ahead of what his inflation figures are suggesting. Whether it is the price of caulies or a budget chicken, my constituents tell me they are having to pay more, or sadly just do without. Families at the bottom of the income scale—on average, on £53.81 a week—will suffer a 6.3% drop in their overall income following the VAT rise, personal allowance increase and other minor tax changes.
Mr
McKenzie: It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Roger.
It is blatantly obvious that families up and down the country are paying the price of the Government’s failure to come to terms with the economy and to create growth and prosperity for all. The cost of living has never been higher. I speak as someone who brought up a family in the 1980s, and I thought that times were hard then. I am now seeing those circumstances repeated in my constituency. My constituents, especially the working families, are finding it extremely hard.
One of the indicators is the rise in unemployment, yet again, across the country. That illustrates that times are doubly hard for those who can least afford it and who are struggling to get employment. In my constituency, we have been fortunate in keeping unemployment down. Before Government Members jump to their feet saying, “We did it for Inverclyde”, however, let me advise them that they did not. The reason that we have been so successful in reducing youth unemployment is that my Labour-led council has put its money where its mouth is and continued with the future jobs fund for the past two years, to ensure that our young people have a future. It has ensured that they have employment not just for a few weeks or months, and it has gone back to the employers and the young people to ensure that their employment is sustainable for years. Now, 80% of those given employment places have remained in them for more than a year, and we are glad that that success is doing something to alleviate unemployment among young people in Inverclyde.
Unfortunately, however, there has been little impact on those who have been unemployed for more than two years, and the Government have offered them no assistance other than shipping them off to a private firm to be placed in employment somewhere for a week or two. It is clear that only Labour can guarantee those people a job with a living wage.
Prices are rising faster than wages. The Office for Budget Responsibility has confirmed that, by 2015, people will be worse off than they were in 2010. That illustrates the result of this Government’s policies. Most people in my constituency feel that, while Ministers might have read economics at university, it is they who are actually living the economics, day in, day out. The cost of living has never been higher, and that is partly due to increased food prices. I encourage any Member to go round their local supermarket and do their weekly shopping, as I do. I see less and less going into the trolley, and more and more going into the till at the end of my shopping trip. Even those families who are thrifty and who shop around and buy own-brand items are seeing a dramatic increase in their food bills. They are being pushed into using food banks, which is another indicator that times are indeed hard.
In my constituency, we have the i58 project, in which one of the local churches has been running a food bank since last September. I was staggered when I visited it at Christmas. It thought that the numbers of people being referred to it had peaked at 1,000—mine is not a large constituency, after all—but the figure has continued to increase in the new year. It is deeply regrettable that we are not seeing any reduction in those numbers. Ever more families, including working families, have been referred to food banks.
Even with the steps we have taken in my area to insulate homes to try to keep energy bills as low as possible, there have been dramatic increases in households’ energy costs. That seems to happen year in, year out. There seems to be no stopping the price rises introduced by the energy companies. These ever-increasing bills spread fear, particularly among the elderly and those on low incomes. People are struggling to pay to heat their own homes. In my area of Scotland, investment in home insulation has been in place for four or five years, yet people are still struggling to pay their energy bills.
Rents have increased recently, too. Not enough homes are being built, so increasing numbers of people are unable to find social rented accommodation. They are pushed into the private sector, which has taken full advantage by pushing up rents time and again. That, too, is having a dramatic impact, particularly on those who can least afford to pay.
We have already heard about the high fuel prices. Those who are fortunate enough still to be able to afford to run a vehicle find that the price of petrol at the pump increases year after year. A number of approaches to the Government have been needed to get them to halt the increases in prices, but we continue to ask for VAT to be removed from fuel. That has one of the biggest impacts on fuel prices, as was pointed out in an earlier intervention. It was also pointed out that we can drop VAT, on an individual basis, from fuel.
There is more evidence of hard times to be seen on the high streets, with shop after shop closing, and brand name after brand name disappearing. The shops that are replacing them are loan shops, bookmakers and pawnbrokers, which shows that those on low incomes are increasingly having to make visits—perhaps on a weekly basis—to such shops in order to bridge the gap between what they are receiving and what they are having to spend on the bare essentials.
The way to deal with the increasing costs of living is through employment. All wealth comes from employment and we must make sure there are as many jobs as possible. We must create jobs by stimulating the introduction of projects throughout the country. We welcome the large projects, of course—we had great success with the Olympic games, and in Scotland I am sure we will have great success with the Commonwealth games—but the smaller projects in and around our communities need to happen as well, to stimulate local economies and get things moving. We all know of shovel-ready projects in our areas that need to go ahead, but they are not progressing.
Last year, the Government gave additional funds to the Scottish Government for shovel-ready projects. Where that money has gone remains to be discovered, as to date only £10 million has seen the light of day in projects across Scotland.
Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/Co-op)
What my hon. Friend says highlights one of the advantages of the proposal to cut VAT. Even with the best will in the world, investment in infrastructure can take a long time to get through all the resistance, which is why even now, after up to three years of trying, we are still not seeing the full benefits of that, whereas a cut in VAT would have an immediate effect on the high street, and on construction and many other sectors of our economy. That highlights why it is so important that the VAT cut should go ahead.
Mr McKenzie
My hon. Friend makes a good point. I visited some of the employers in my area in the Easter recess. Time and again they told me they needed a stimulus to the local economy from a VAT cut, to get people spending and buying things. My local construction firms in particular said they needed a reduction in VAT to get people to consider going ahead with smaller projects such as house improvements, thus creating employment locally. They felt a VAT cut would serve to stimulate that local growth and get things moving; otherwise, they could see only a bleak future, if any future at all, for the construction industry. They also brought up the continuing difficulty of being closed out of local and national Government contracts. The procurement process still seems to be far too complex and to exclude the small and medium-sized businesses that could stimulate the local economy.
Mr Gauke
It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Roger.
I will deal with new clause 2 in a moment, but what has driven this debate, initiated by the Opposition, is the cost of living. That is an important matter for our constituents and the Government recognise the pressures that households face. We are taking action to support households with the cost of living, within the fiscal constraints that exist.
A key part of that has been to increase the personal allowance. Clause 3 will ensure that the benefits of that increase are shared fairly. In 2010, when the coalition was formed, individuals could earn just £6,475 before they began to pay income tax. Thanks to the actions of this Government, from April next year, the figure will be £10,000. That is an increase of £3,525, which means that the personal allowance will have risen by more than 50% in just four years, thereby helping our constituents with the cost of living. Our priority has been to help those on low and middle incomes, and we have. The changes in clause 2 mean that a typical basic rate taxpayer is already nearly £600 better off in cash terms under this Government. From next year, that figure will rise to more than £700.
That is not the only action that we are taking to help households with the cost of living. The fuel duty increase that was planned for September will be cancelled. The Finance Bill keeps fuel duty frozen at current levels, maintaining the longest freeze in fuel duty for 20 years. That is helping households and businesses with the cost of motoring. Fuel duty is 13p per litre lower than it would have been had we implemented the Labour party’s planned increases. We have also taken action to help local authorities in England to freeze their council tax for the third year in a row and to cap rail fares for commuters.
Albert Owen
The Minister and his Front-Bench colleagues are always talking about the freeze in fuel duty, which I welcome and for which I campaigned. However, has the Treasury made any calculations on the extra 2.5p in each pound that ordinary hard-working families spend on their petrol at the pump because of their measures?
Mr Gauke
Of course, that has been far outweighed by the steps that we have taken to reduce fuel duty. The net effect has been a substantial reduction in the amount of tax collected for every litre of petrol.
New clause 2 returns us to the big, fundamental economic argument that we have been having for some years on deficit reduction. I could deliver the standard speech that we give in such circumstances about how it is a strange way to deal with a debt crisis to try to increase borrowing. However, this is one of those rare occasions when the Opposition have put forward a policy and we have an opportunity to ask questions about it. I know that the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson) will be keen to enlighten the House on the policy she has set out in new clause 2, and if I may, I will ask a number of questions—[Interruption.] I am sorry; there seems to be some objection from the Labour party. New clause 2 is being proposed by the Labour party. I want to ask questions about the policy behind it, so let me ask those questions.
First—this is the point raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood)—new clause 2 states that VAT will be reduced until “strong growth” is achieved. What is strong growth?
Mr Gauke
I would give way to the hon. Gentleman, but he was not here for the early part of the debate. He may not have read the new clause, but the policy depends on the definition of “strong growth” and the Labour party has not provided a definition.
Secondly, the cost of this measure will be £12 billion to £13 billion a year. How will that be paid for—an issue raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough (Mr Jackson)? Will it be through higher taxes, a reduction in spending or—as we believe—an increase in borrowing? What consideration has been given to the impact on the cost of borrowing? A 1% increase in Government bond yields would add around £8 billion to annual debt interest payments by 2017-18 and result in an increase of £12 billion in households’ mortgage interest payments—the equivalent of £1,000 for a household with an average mortgage in its first year. Has the Labour party considered the consequences of that discretionary fiscal stimulus?
What is Labour’s view on the profile of deficit reduction? We believe that over the whole deficit reduction period, 80% should be achieved through spending cuts and 20% through tax increases. The Darling plan had two thirds on spending cuts and one third on tax increases. What is the view of the Labour party, given that it has put in front of the Committee a proposal for a £12 billion or £13 billion tax cut? Does it suggest that the ratio should lean more towards public spending cuts rather than tax rises? What assessment has Labour made of the impact of different taxes on the economy? My right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham mentioned the fact that VAT is, as many economists would argue, less harmful to growth than other taxes. Is that the view of the Labour party? Why has VAT been picked as a particular issue?
The Labour party does not come forward with policies often, but I am pleased that it has done so today so that Labour Members have the opportunity to tell the Committee exactly what their policy is. They can explain that policy, and if they would care to answer those questions the Committee will be able to judge whether it should support new clause 2. My advice to my right hon. and hon. Friends is that this is just more of the same from the Labour party. It is more borrowing and more debt, and it fails to get to grips with the fiscal situation and the mess in which the Labour party left this country and which we, the coalition Government, are addressing.
Cathy Jamieson
It is an interesting experience to see Ministers ask a whole range of questions without addressing why we introduced the proposal. The Minister failed to recognise work that shows how VAT hits those on lower incomes disproportionately hard. He shakes his head but we can point to research which backs that up and businesses that say—I have spoken to people personally as I am sure have other hon. Members—that a temporary cut in VAT would help to stimulate the economy and growth. The Minister asks what the definition of strong growth would be. It certainly is not what this Government have provided.
Mr Gauke
The Opposition propose a new clause that depends on the definition of “strong growth” but do not tell us what that means. They object to questions being asked about what the new clause means. It is the hon. Lady’s new clause, so will she tell the Committee what she is getting at, why she has chosen VAT, what the fiscal implications will be, and what will happen if borrowing goes up by £12 billion or £13 billion?
Cathy Jamieson
I am sure the Minister has heard what I have said. We believe that the new clause is one measure that can be introduced now to ensure that there is a stimulus in the economy.
The Government believe that consistently high rates of VAT are helpful to the economy. The Opposition disagree and believe there is an alternative. I find it interesting that the Minister constantly presses Opposition Members to define “strong growth” when it is clear that the Government’s policies are introducing something that is far from strong growth. It is important to recognise that, once again, the Opposition are standing up for the people whose incomes are being squeezed and who are being hit hard by the Government’s policies. The Minister can shake his head as much as he likes, but he knows in his heart of hearts that the Opposition are speaking out for the people who are hit hardest by the Government’s policies. That is why I intend to press new clause 2 to a Division.
Question put, That the clause be read a Second time.
Cathy Jamieson
I beg to move amendment 10, page 2, line 11, at end add—
‘(3) The Chancellor shall produce a report on subsection (1) which shall include an assessment of the impact of changes to taxation on the living standards of basic rate taxpayers which shall be placed in the House of Commons Library within three months of Royal Assent.’.
The Temporary Chairman (Sir Roger Gale)
With this it will be convenient to discuss clause 3 stand part.
Cathy Jamieson
It is a pleasure to be back at the Dispatch Box. Had amendment 4 been selected for debate, we could have engaged in further discussion about the mansion tax and the 10p income tax rate. However, I think that some of the broader issues that I shall raise in relation to clause 3 are relevant to that subject.
Clause 3 sets the 2013-14 basic rate limit for income tax at £32,010. In doing so, it overrides the indexed amount, which would otherwise have been set at £35,300 as announced in the 2012 autumn statement. The explanatory notes on the clause state that it is
“part of a package of measures”.
I shall say something further about the implications of that package of measures as we go on. Effectively, the rise in the personal allowance from £8,105 to £9,440 for this year and the rise to £10,000 from 2014, however welcome they are and regardless of the difficulties raised concerning those who will not necessarily benefit, will in part be clawed back by the measures implemented in this clause and a further reduction in the basic rate limit next year to £31,865.
Mr Robin Walker
It is a pleasure to take part in this debate and to speak about one of the most important and beneficial changes announced in the Budget. In dealing with the clause stand part element of the debate, I intend to talk about the level of the basic rate of income tax and, more importantly, the increase in the threshold, which, as the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson) said, are directly linked.
I would first like to clarify one point, having been contacted by a very concerned constituent who had heard that the basic rate for the top level of tax was being reduced to £32,000 and, as she earns £35,000, was worried that she will suddenly become a 40% taxpayer. It is important to clarify that the basic rate thresholds are set on top of the threshold for paying income tax and that no one is being asked to pay the 40p higher rate until they earn £41,450.
Stewart Hosie
Of course, that is only part of the story, because the threshold before one pays 40% has gone down from £37,500 to £32,000, a reduction of over £5,000, while the 20% threshold has gone from £6,500 to £10,000, which is an increase of only £3,500. In fact, 670,000 more people are now paying the 40p rate than were doing so three years ago, so many more people now fall within a tax band that used to be only for the rich.
Mr Walker
I take the hon. Gentleman’s point. I had thought that his party was in favour of progressive taxation. Certainly, I believe that raising the income tax threshold and taking many people out of tax is one of the coalition Government’s great achievements. It was a Liberal Democrat policy at the general election, and on this occasion I will admit that they had an excellent idea.
The coalition Government are right to recognise that it is vital to make work pay and that that cannot be done through welfare reforms alone. By also ensuring that people can keep more of the money they earn, we will stimulate the economy, reward work and alter the balance between dependency and opportunity.
I am delighted that Ministers have been able to bring forward planned changes to the income tax threshold by a year so that workers at the lower end of the wage spectrum will not have to wait until 2015 to pay less tax. As a result of the changes announced in the Budget, more than 34,000 people in Worcester will receive a tax cut and 3,370 people who would have been paying income tax in 2010 will pay none at all. That will not only reward those people, but directly stimulate our local economy—we have heard from Labour Members about the importance of people having money in their pockets to spend in the shops. In four years, the threshold at which people have to pay tax will have been raised by 50%, which is good news for millions of part-time workers who have been taken out of the tax system altogether and full-time workers on average earnings who benefit from a reduced burden of income tax.
The Opposition have downplayed those changes and focused on changes to tax credits to argue that some working families will be worse off. In doing so, they show a profound misunderstanding of the pride people take in the money they earn and their desire to support themselves. It is far better for the individual and their family to earn their money, keep the fruits of their labour and be able to spend it as they see fit than for it to be taken away and for the individual to be dependent on the faceless benignity of an all-knowing state that might choose to hand a proportion of it back—might—but that, if Labour ever gets control of the Treasury again, might find itself without the means to do so.
To listen to some of the speeches we have heard from the Opposition over the past few weeks, one might be forgiven for believing that the tax credits system, as it currently stands, was a vital part of Attlee’s welfare state and a bastion of the post-war consensus; it is not and it was not. In its current form, it is the creation not of a Beveridge or a Bevan, but of the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown), who so rarely graces the House with his presence. I am glad that that complex system, which takes money away from working people to feed it through the Government sausage machine and re-allocate some of it, is to be rolled into universal credit and reformed to ensure that work will always pay.
It is far better to remove the tax from thousands of hard-working people in my constituency, and millions across the country, so that they can keep the money they have earned for their needs, their homes and their families. If we are to support families, it is far better, as the right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr Field) has argued, to use public money to invest in early intervention than to use it to prop up a complex system of credits that fails properly to support work and has always failed to reach millions of the people who, in theory, are eligible for it.
The fact that the Government are increasing the tax threshold shows that we are rewarding work at the same time as simplifying the tax system. The fact that we have been able to bring forward those changes shows that there is a sense of urgency about delivering an unalloyed public benefit, which many Labour Members have supported today.
I would argue that the same sense of urgency should be brought to the issue of child care support for working families. The Prime Minister set out exciting policies on that before the Budget but my constituents are being asked to wait until 2015 for the support. I have heard from many constituents who are delighted to hear that it will be available through the tax system but are then devastated to realise that by the time it is implemented, their children will have grown out of the eligibility criteria.
If a thing is worth doing, it is worth doing now. I urge the bright and brilliant men and women of the Treasury to bend their backs to the task of bringing those valuable initiatives forward in the shortest possible time. While they are at it, I urge them to consider a proper transferable married person’s tax allowance to support the family.
I welcome many initiatives in the Budget and I hope that the Chair will not rule me out of order if I touch briefly on a few of the others that will make a real difference to people in Worcester. Freezing once again the duty on fuel is more than welcome and much appreciated. Removing the much loathed beer duty escalator will raise a toast in many of Worcester’s pubs. The employment allowance will help more small businesses to create vitally needed jobs.
Returning to my opening remarks and the matter under consideration, I make one suggestion for the future, and I sincerely hope that Treasury Ministers can take it on board. Raising the income tax threshold is and has been the right thing to do, and it remains so. It is wonderful that we have brought forward to 2014 the date at which the threshold will reach the magic number of £10,000. However, today we should open a debate about that number. The figure of £10,000 was not worked out by economists or in careful consultation with employers and workers, nor was it based on any reflection of financial reality; it was drawn up as a manifesto promise in a party conference on the eve of an election.
In my view, the Conservative party missed out by not making that promise ourselves. Today we should start to consider the level at which the threshold for income tax should be set in the future. I believe that it should be the same as the earnings of a full-time worker on the minimum wage.
Stephen Williams
I was hoping that my hon. Friend would make that point. He has already acknowledged the Liberal Democrat pledge on the £10,000 threshold at the last election. We have already decided that at the next general election we are going to link the income tax threshold to the national minimum wage, which is currently £12,071. If my hon. Friend is about to say that he endorses the Liberal Democrat position at the next general election, I will welcome that.
Mr Walker
I will certainly urge my party to adopt a similar position. Raising the threshold to £11,500 or £12,000 in future Budgets would help millions more people and provide further stimulus. That, along with other policies that my party supports, and which the Liberal Democrats do not always support, such as keeping a freeze on council tax, could make a real difference. Raising the threshold would extend the legacy of that valuable change and do even more to make work pay. I urge Ministers to consider it for the future and commend them on the difficult job that they are doing well.
Sheila Gilmore
The hon. Member for Worcester (Mr Walker) has perpetuated some of the myths about some of the last Government’s policies. For example, he suggested that it would be better to put money into early intervention—presumably, that would involve paying things such as tax credits. Of course, it was not an either/or.
Anyone looking at the setting up of Sure Start and all the reports that were done on the importance of early intervention would see that we did not think, as is sometimes suggested, that the only solution to deprivation, child poverty and so on was simply to put money in. Money is part of the issue, but we certainly did not see things in terms of either/or. All the people up and down the country who have seen reductions in Sure Start services, for example, see that now it is not only not either/or—in many cases, it is neither/nor.
It is all very well for the Government to say, “We’re leaving you your own money so that is fine,” but the bottom line is that people have less money in their pockets. What has been suggested is a give-away in income tax is more than balanced, for many low-paid workers, by the reduction in tax credits and other provision. What matters to those people is how much they have to spend. Saying, “Oh, it’s wonderful that you’re getting to keep your own money” is no use. They cannot necessarily buy the things that they need.
The situation with child care is similar. The hon. Member for Worcester was right to say that the Government measure on that is not coming in right now; moreover, many people have already seen a cut in help. Child care tax credits were cut by the Government for many low-paid working families, so it has already happened.
The tax credits system was particularly beneficial for single parents, over 350,000 of whom went into employment as a direct result. There are serious concerns about universal credit as the answer to all this, particularly for single parents. Gingerbread and other organisations representing single parents have pointed out that their position could be worse under universal credit.
Mr Gauke
Clause 3 sets the basic rate limit for income tax for the 2013-14 tax year. Let me make it clear at the outset, as I did in the previous debate, that we understand the financial pressures faced by households. As a Government, we have taken action to reward employment and to support hard-working families. That is why we have increased the personal allowance. I endorse the remarks made by my hon. Friend the Member for Worcester (Mr Walker) in support of the policy we have pursued. Budget 2013 announced that we will go further, with the personal allowance increasing by a further £560 to reach £10,000 in 2014-15, meeting the Government’s commitment a whole year early. These changes will benefit 25 million individuals and will take 2.7 million people out of income tax altogether by April 2014.
Clause 3 reduces the basic rate limit by £2,360 to £32,010 in 2013-14. When combined with the £1,335 increase in the personal allowance provided for by clause 2, the higher rate tax threshold for 2013-14 will be reduced to £41,450. This allowance increase will benefit all taxpayers with incomes below £116,000 by £200 a year on average in real terms. About 30% of the gains from the personal allowance increase for 2013-14 will be shared with most higher-rate taxpayers. The national insurance upper earnings and profits limits remain aligned with the higher rate tax threshold.
It might be helpful if I set out the reasons for this change. I have explained that this coalition Government are committed to creating a fairer tax system that rewards work, with real-terms progress every year towards increasing the personal allowance to £10,000. We are meeting that target one year ahead of schedule and the final step towards it will be legislated on in next year’s Finance Bill. For now, the £1,335 increase in the personal allowance, introduced by clause 2, represents a major milestone on the journey to £10,000. The changes that we are making for the 2013-14 tax year will lift an additional 1.1 million individuals out of income tax altogether and give 24 million taxpayers an average real-terms gain of more than £200 a year. For the typical basic rate taxpayer, that will mean an extra £267 of cash in their pocket for 2013-14, which is an extra £5 a week since the start of the new tax year.
On the specific issue of gains for higher rate taxpayers, when increasing the personal allowance by £10,000 in 2011-12 we also had to make sure it was consistent with bringing the public finances under control. Therefore, higher rate taxpayers did not benefit from that increase. However, we decided that the benefits of later increases should be shared with higher rate taxpayers. This supports growth by increasing the rewards to work for a wide range of individuals.
The £1,335 increase from April 2013 was announced in two parts. For the increase of £1,100 announced at Budget 2012, rather than pass on the full benefit of the personal allowance to higher rate taxpayers, an equivalent amount of funding was provided to assist in the fair implementation of the child benefit reforms. However, gains from the additional £235 increase announced at autumn statement 2012 have been passed on equally.
At that time the Government also decided that the higher rate tax threshold—the point above which the higher rate tax starts to be paid—will increase by 1% in both 2014-15 and 2015-16. These will be cash increases, the first in this Parliament, and they will ensure that higher rate taxpayers will gain equally from future increases to the personal allowance. The Government recognise that these are below-inflation increases, so they also raise about £1 billion in revenue to support our efforts to deal with the large deficit we inherited from the Labour party. We make no attempts to conceal that and have been very open and up front about it.
Opposition amendment 10 calls for a report on the cost of living for basic rate taxpayers. As I have said, we recognise the pressures that households face and we are taking action to support them with the cost of living. Indeed, in our debate earlier this afternoon I set out some of the policies. I have touched in this speech on the personal allowance and one could also point to our policies on fuel duty and beer duty, which were announced in the recent Budget, and on council tax, which are all intended to relive households from some of the pressures they face.
The Government have taken unprecedented steps to publish a distributional analysis alongside each Budget and autumn statement document. Such analysis shows the impact of all the Government’s policies on household incomes and separates the impact of tax measures from their other policies. It is important to consider all the Government’s policies, not just their taxation measures. The distributional analysis published at the Budget shows that the top 20% of households continue to make the greatest contribution towards reducing the deficit, both as a percentage of their income and in cash terms. We believe that producing a further report to supplement that would be unnecessary and a waste of money.
We have debated the wider point of the cost of living in two debates this afternoon, although admittedly this second debate has been short. As I made clear, the Government recognise the considerable pressures, consequent on rising commodity, food and fuel prices, that our constituents have felt strongly in recent years. The Government have taken difficult decisions to try to reduce the deficit, and undeniably that has had an impact on people, but we ought to be straight with the British public: whoever is in government will have to take measures to reduce the deficit. Anyone in a position of responsibility has to recognise that we cannot continue borrowing 11% or 12% of our economy. [Hon. Members: “But you are!”] While in office, we have reduced the deficit by a third.
Having listened to Opposition speeches this afternoon, I do not for one moment doubt their sincerity, but there has been the temptation to ignore the fact that there is a very large deficit that has to be dealt with by raising taxes, cutting spending or a combination of the two, and to pretend otherwise is to not be straight with the British public. Some of this afternoon’s speeches have given every indication that Labour is content with being a repository for people’s anger. To use even stronger language, Labour often gives every indication of being simple fellow-travellers in sympathy, but not leaders. That is Labour’s approach.
Sheila Gilmore
Would the Minister not rather be understanding of people’s very real anger than just ignore it? [Interruption.]
Mr Gauke
As the Financial Secretary to the Treasury points out, people should be angry about the state of the public finances left to us by the Labour party. I described Labour as the “repository for people’s anger” and as a “simply fellow-traveller in sympathy”, not leaders, because those were the words of the last successful leader of the Labour party, Tony Blair. I am afraid that Labour is too often in its comfort zone. We know that there are pressures on living standards, but ignoring the deficit is no way to deal with them. The Government are prepared to take those difficult decisions, while Labour is failing to address them.
Cathy Jamieson
I am disappointed to hear the Minister resort once again to the same tired old mantra.
We have listened this afternoon to some passionate speeches from Opposition Members talking about the very real experiences of their constituents, and it is disappointing that once again the Government choose not to recognise them. They do not seem to recognise their responsibility for the deficit and debt now—for the fact that they have to borrow more, for the lack of growth, for the fact that people are not getting back into work in the way we would want and for the problems with living standards.
Sadly, we saw some crocodile tears from the Minister, who on the one hand wants to say, “Yes, we understand the impact on people”, but on the other is not prepared to do anything about it. Opposition Members are rightly angry on behalf of their constituents. They are angry about the bedroom tax and about the fact that the Government have chosen today not to do something on VAT that would have made a difference to people in our communities who will also be angry that the Government will not even accept a mild-mannered request, as I described it earlier, for a report on the impact of the Government’s policies on basic rate taxpayers. For that reason, I intend to press the amendment to a vote.
Question put, That the amendment be made.
Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
The Temporary Chairman (Sir Roger Gale)
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
New clause 4—Air passenger duty: Wales
‘Schedule (Air Passenger Duty: Wales) has effect’.
New schedule 1—‘Air Passenger Duty: Wales
‘Air Passenger Duty: Wales
Part 1
Rates of Duty from 1 April 2013
1 Section 30 of FA 1994 (air passenger duty: rates of duty) is amended as follows.
After subsection 4D insert—
“(4DA) Subsection (4DA) applies if—
(a) the passenger’s journey is a relevant Wales journey, and
(b) apart from subsection (4C), subsection (2) would not apply to the journey.
(4DB) The applicable rate in subsection (2) applies to the journey instead of the applicable rate in subsection (3), (4) or (4A) (as the case may be).
(4DC) A passenger’s journey is a “relevant Wales journey”—
(a) in the case of a journey which has only one flight, if the flight begins in Wales, and
(b) in any other case, if the first flight of the journey—
(i) begins in Wales, and
(ii) is not followed by a connected flight beginning at a place in the United Kingdom or a territory specified in Part 1 of Schedule 5A.”
The amendments made by this Part of this Schedule have effect in relation to the carriage of passengers beginning on or after 1 April 2013.
Part 2
Devolution of Wales Long Haul Rates of Duty
2 Chapter 4 of Part 1 of FA 1994 (air passenger duty) is amended as follows.
3 (1) Section 30 (rates of duty) is amended as follows.
(2) After subsection (1) insert—
“(1B) Subsection (1) does not apply to the carriage of a chargeable passenger to which section 30B below (Wales long haul rates of duty) applies.”
(3) Omit subsections (4DA) to (4DC) (as inserted by paragraph 1 above).
(4) The amendments made by this paragraph have effect in relation to the carriage of passengers beginning on or after the relevant day as defined in section 30B of FA 1994 (as inserted by paragraph 4 below).
4 After section 30A insert—
30B Wales long haul rates of duty
“(1) This section applies to the carriage of a chargeable passenger if—
(a) the carriage begins on or after the relevant day,
(b) the only flight, or the first flight, of the passenger’s journey begins at a place in Wales,
(c) the passenger’s journey does not end at a place in the United Kingdom or a territory specified in Part 1 of Schedule 5A, and
(d) if the passenger’s journey has more than one flight, the first flight is not followed by a connected flight beginning at a place in the United Kingdom or a territory specified in Part 1 of Schedule 5A.
(2) Air passenger duty is chargeable on the carriage of the chargeable passenger at the rate determined as follows.
(3) If the passenger’s journey ends at a place in a territory specified in Part 2 of Schedule 5A—
(a) if the passenger’s agreement for carriage provides for standard class travel in relation to every flight on the passenger’s journey, the rate is the rate set by an Act of the National Assembly for Wales for the purposes of this paragraph, and
(b) in any other case, the rate is the rate set by an Act of the National Assembly for Wales for the purposes of this paragraph.
(4) If the passenger’s journey ends at a place in a territory specified in Part 3 of Schedule 5A—
(a) if the passenger’s agreement for carriage provides for standard class travel in relation to every flight on the passenger’s journey, the rate is the rate set by an Act of the National Assembly for Wales with the purposes of this paragraph, and
(b) in any other case, the rate is the rate set by an Act of the National Assembly for Wales for the purposes of this paragraph.
(5) If the passenger’s journey ends at any other place—
(a) if the passenger’s agreement for carriage provides for standard class travel in relation to every flight on the passenger’s journey, the rate is the rate set by an Act of the National Assembly for Wales for the purposes of this paragraph, and
(b) in any other case, the rate is the rate set by an Act of the National Assembly for Wales for the purposes of this paragraph.
(6) The rate of £0 may be set for the purposes of any paragraph.
(7) The same rate may be set for the purposes of two or more paragraphs.
(8) Subsections (5) to (7) and (10) to (12) of section 30 apply for the purposes of this section as they apply for the purposes of that section.
(9) “The relevant day” means the day appointed as such by an order.
(10) Section 42(4) and (5) does not apply to an order under subsection (9).
(11) A Bill containing provision authorised by this section may not be passed by the National Wales Assembly except in pursuance of a recommendation which—
(a) is made by the Minister of Finance, and
(b) is signified to the Assembly by the Minister or on the Minister’s behalf.
(12) “Passed”, in relation to a Bill, means passed at the final stage (at which the Bill can be passed or rejected but not amended).
(13) Duty paid to the Commissioners in respect of the carriage of chargeable passengers to which this section applies must be paid by the Commissioners into the Consolidated Fund of Wales.”
5 (1) Section 33 (registration of aircraft operators) is amended as follows.
(2) After subsection (2A) insert—
“(2B) If the Commissioners decide to keep a register under section 33B below, an operator of a chargeable aircraft does not become liable to be registered under this section just because the aircraft is used for the carriage of chargeable passengers to which section 30B above applies.”
(3) In subsection (3)(b) after “applies” insert “or, if the Commissioners have decided to keep a register under section 33B below, that no chargeable aircraft which he operates will be used for the carriage of chargeable passengers apart from the carriage of chargeable passengers to which section 30B above applies.
(4) In subsection (7) after “section 33A” insert “or section 33B below.
6 After section 33A insert—
33B (1) The Commissioners may under this section keep a register of aircraft operators.
(2) If the Commissioners decide to keep a register under this section, the operator of a chargeable aircraft becomes liable to be registered under this section if the aircraft is used for the carriage of chargeable passengers to which section 30B above applies.
(3) A person who has become liable to be registered under this section ceases to be so liable if the Commissioners are satisfied at any time—
(a) the he no longer operates any chargeable aircraft, or
(b) that no chargeable aircraft which he operates will be used for the carriage of chargeable passengers to which section 30B above applies.
(4) A person who is not registered under this section and has not given notice under this subsection shall, if he becomes liable to be registered under this section at any time, give written notice of that fact to the Commissioners not later than the end of the prescribed period beginning with that time.
(5) Notice under subsection (4) above shall be in such form, be given in such manner and contain such information as the Commissioners may direct.”
7 In section 34 (fiscal representatives) in subsection (5)—
(a) in paragraph (a) after “33A” insert “or 33B”.
8 After section 41B insert—
41C (1) An officer of Revenue and Customs may disclose to the Secretary of State, the Treasury or the Department of Finance in Wales any information for purposes connected with the setting of rates of duty under section 30B above, including (in particular) to enable the setting of rates under that section to be taken into account (payments by Secretary of State into Consolidated Fund of Wales).
(2) Information disclosed under subsection (1) above may not be further disclosed without the consent of the Commissioners (which may be general or specific).
(3) In section 19 of the Commissioners for Revenue and Customs Act 2005 (wrongful disclosure) references to section 18(1) of that Act are to be read as including a reference to subsection (2) above.”
9 In section 44 of CRCA 2005 (payment into Consolidated Fund) after subsection (2)(cb) insert—
(cc) sums required by section 30A(15) of the Finance Act 1994 (air passenger duty: Wales long haul rates of duty) to be paid into the Consolidated Fund of Wales,”.
10 In column 2 of the Table in paragraph 1 of Schedule 41 to FA 2008 (penalties for failure to notify), in the entry relating to air passenger duty, after “33A(4) “insert “or 33B(4)”.
11 The amendments made by this Part of the Schedule have effect in relation to the carriage of passengers beginning on or after 1 April 2013.
12 The rate of duty in force under this Schedule shall not be greater than the rate which would be in force if the Schedule had not been enacted.’.
Clause 183 stand part.
Clause 184 stand part.
Mr MacNeil
I shall speak to new clause 3 and against clause 183 stand part.
Air passenger duty is fast becoming one of the most damaging interventions by the Westminster Government in the Scottish economy, which over the past 30 years has provided more tax per person per year than across the United Kingdom as a whole. The chairman of VisitScotland, Mike Cantlay, says he is “extremely fearful” of the long-term impact of air passenger duty levies on the long-haul market to Scotland, which have left the country at a competitive disadvantage compared with countries such as Ireland. He added:
“To say to a potential visitor to Scotland from Australia, for example, that before you even book you will be paying hundreds of pounds extra for the sake of coming here, because the UK has a deficit to fund, is not an easy sell. It is lunacy for our industry.”
Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab)
How many journeys would be affected by the new clause?
Mr MacNeil
I am sure that the hon. Gentleman knows the answer to that question better than I do. It will affect thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of journeys. It is estimated that the present arrangements have cost Scotland about 2.1 million visitors since the introduction of air passenger duty a few years ago, and the effect of that on the Scottish economy is mammoth.
Mr Donohoe
May I draw the hon. Gentleman’s attention to the wording of new clause 3? Does it not in fact cover only long-haul flights? It does not cover connecting flights through Heathrow or any other airports. How many actual journeys will it therefore cover? I understand that there are only two such long-haul journeys per week to Northern Ireland, for example.
Mr MacNeil
The hon. Gentleman will understand that this covers all aspects of journeys feeding into Scotland, and he will know full well that air passenger duty is adversely affecting the Scottish economy. Does he take a contrary view?
Mr Donohoe
As the chairman of the all-party parliamentary aviation group, may I remind the hon. Gentleman that we have reported on this matter? The duty has a great effect on everyone in the United Kingdom, not just those in Scotland.
Mr MacNeil
I do not dispute that it has a great effect on everyone in the United Kingdom, but Scotland is currently in the United Kingdom and it therefore affects Scotland. I look forward to hearing the hon. Gentleman’s speech. I am sure that the points he raises will be very welcome.
Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)
My hon. Friend referred to numbers, and I am sure that he, like me, will have noted that the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr Donohoe) is the only Scottish Labour Member who has bothered to turn up for this debate, such is their concern about the issue we are addressing.
Mr MacNeil
My hon. Friend is right—[Interruption.] Yes, there is, of course, a Scottish Labour Member on the Front Bench, but the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson) is present because of duty, rather than will, which is why the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire is here.
Mr MacNeil
If the hon. Gentleman will be patient, I will make some progress before giving way to him.
Mr MacNeil
I am sure the hon. Gentleman will be patient. He is usually a patient man, and I am sure he can display some patience now.
The chief executive of the UK Airport Operators Association, Darren Caplan, recently said:
“Our eye-wateringly high levels of APD already mean we pay the highest passenger tax on flying in the world—and this is not disputed by anyone in Government.”
The truth is that APD rates are having a devastating effect on the UK, and especially on Scotland. Let me pass on the views of some key people in Scotland. Jim O’Sullivan, managing director of Edinburgh airport, said on the BBC news on 6 December 2011:
“APD is already costing Scotland passengers and having an impact on tourism revenues. We know from discussions with our airline partners that it is a major factor in their decision to connect further routes to Scotland. We would urge the Westminster Government to see Scotland as it does Northern Ireland and understand the need to both reduce and devolve this unfair and damaging tax.”
Amanda McMillan, managing director of Glasgow airport, said:
“On the question of devolution of APD, Glasgow Airport has always been supportive of this proposal given the Scottish Government’s more progressive approach to aviation and its greater appreciation of the role the industry plays in supporting the growth of the Scottish economy.”
Scottish Government Transport Minister, Keith Brown, said:
“We need to be able to deal with the competitive and connectivity disadvantages that Scotland faces and if APD were devolved now we could provide the means to incentivise airlines to provide new direct international connections to Scotland, benefiting our aviation industry and our passengers and supporting the growth of the Scottish economy. The UK Government needs to listen to the many voices in Scotland who clearly want to see full devolution of the policy on APD.”
Phil Wilson (Sedgefield) (Lab)
Is it not true that APD was devolved to Northern Ireland because of the flights that would have left Belfast airport and gone instead to Dublin? The specific APD problem for Northern Ireland is that there is an international border between Northern Ireland and Eire.
Mr MacNeil
The hon. Gentleman is making my case. Airports are joined by air, not by land or sea. I am sure Prestwick is about as far from Belfast airport as Dublin and Shannon are, so if this is good enough for Belfast and Northern Ireland, it is good enough for Scottish airports.
Mr Reid
The hon. Gentleman forgets one point: Northern Ireland is attached by land to the Irish Republic and Scotland is attached by land to England but is not attached by land to Ireland. The difference here is that people were driving from Belfast to Dublin to catch connecting flights, whereas, obviously, people cannot drive from Glasgow to Dublin to catch connecting flights.
Mr MacNeil
That is a very strange argument for a Member who, like me, represents islands. It also could be argued that a passenger travelling from Stranraer would have a far shorter journey to Northern Ireland than a person travelling overland from Cork to Northern Ireland. The hon. Gentleman may not be aware that aircraft travel through the air, not overland or across the sea.
Mr MacNeil
The hon. Gentleman is right about that to an extent. For some flights, however, APD is paid on one of the legs going into the islands, so he is not entirely correct, and the flights that are exempt are those capable of carrying under 20 passengers with a take-off load of less than 10 tonnes. He should know the details of what he is talking about.
May I ask the UK Government a simple question? Why are they not devolving APD to Scotland? Is it because the UK Government do not want to see Scotland doing better? Is it because the UK Government care only about collecting revenues from Scotland? Or is it that they think that once one tax goes, all taxes will go—and that the often peddled myth that Scotland receives extra money from the indebted UK will be seen for the lie it is? Is there a fear of APD today, oil revenue tomorrow, so the mantra is that it is better to keep taxes together at Westminster?
The Government refuse to listen to sensible voices in Scotland. Robert Kerr, the chairman of French Duncan and the Scottish accountant of the year, said:
“More helpful would be a reduction in the rate of air passenger duty (instead, the Chancellor announced in his Budget that it would increase at the highest level of inflation for two years)”.
He continued:
“Scotland is preparing to welcome the world in 2014, when it hosts the second Year of Homecoming, the Commonwealth Games and the Ryder Cup. If we are to maximise the economic opportunities such events present, then we need more help from our governments rather than hindrance.”
I would add that when the referendum is won, Scotland will be in the world’s focus and many more people will want to travel to it. We do not want them to be penalised by the outgoing UK Government in Scotland.
APD should clearly be devolved. The UK Government have had enough time to think about the matter. Even the Calman commission, which was set up by the Tory-Labour tag team and their Liberal friends, recommended the devolution of APD. The UK Government’s response was to refuse to devolve it on the grounds that they were exploring whether to replace it with a per-plane tax. That decision has been made and the per-plane tax has been rejected, so what is the excuse now? I say that looking at the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid). We look forward—if that is the right expression—to hearing the latest excuse from the Government.
Pete Wishart
My hon. Friend is correct that the Calman commission recommended the devolution of APD, but so does the jam-tomorrow Labour commission. At its conference in Inverness this weekend, Scottish Labour will be discussing the devolution of APD. I would be interested to hear whether the two Scottish Labour Members present will boycott that conference.
Mr MacNeil
I am sure that the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire will be on his feet presently to confirm his attendance in Inverness.
Mr Donohoe
That has nothing to do with this debate. The hon. Gentleman should know that his proposal, which is what we are discussing, does not constitute the devolution of APD. What he is talking about is the equivalent of what happens in Northern Ireland, which affects one flight a day. What I and the all-party aviation group are suggesting is that APD be taken away completely. If he proposed that, I would support him. Is the SNP likely to consider that?
Mr MacNeil
I am sure that the hon. Gentleman has investigated the level of APD on flights from London airports to Inverness. Doubtless, he will be flying to the happy band that is the Labour conference this weekend. [Interruption.] As my hon. Friend the Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) says, he will no doubt do so with enthusiasm.
Not only does APD receive a lot of criticism in Scotland and the UK; it has attracted international derision. Two days ago, at a conference in Trinidad and Tobago, it was not only criticised by Caribbean countries as discriminating against the region, but was described as
“a clear market distortion and barrier”
to tourism worldwide by a senior UN tourism official, Carlos Vogeler, the UN World Tourism Organisation’s regional director for the Americas. He added that APD
“can actually produce a net damage to the economy, particularly in those destinations which are so dependent on air travel, such as the Caribbean”.
Surely, on a social union basis, we should treat other Commonwealth countries, such as the beautiful Bahamas, on a fairer basis. At £332 for a family of four flying economy, its air tax is higher than the £268 in tax when flying to Hawaii.
I will give four reasons why APD should be devolved to Scotland. First, APD is making Scottish airports uncompetitive in their efforts to attract new direct international routes. It is needlessly restricting Scotland’s ability to realise the economic and business benefits that direct air connections bring.
Secondly, APD is designed for the circumstances in the south-east of England, not the rest of the UK. It is, at best, a demand-management tool for Heathrow—a stretched airport that will have no further runways until one is built in a panic in a few years’ time, as Ryanair’s Michael O’Leary predicts. Heathrow needs demand to be limited because it is at capacity and the Chancellor therefore has a coincidental fiscal cash cow. Scottish airports have the capacity for growth and this tax blocks it. Independent control over APD through devolved powers would give Scotland the ability to meet its own needs rather than Heathrow’s. My view of demand management is supported by the chief executive of the Scottish Chambers of Commerce, Liz Cameron, who said:
“Current rates of APD seem more suited to controlling capacity constraints at Heathrow than they do with the needs of regional airports, and devolution of this tax would afford the Scottish Government the opportunity to create an air transport package for Scotland designed to improve our direct international connectivity.”
Thirdly, a Scottish aviation tax regime would incentivise the introduction of new direct international services, which is important for business connectivity and in-bound tourism. We could do that by reducing the rate of duty, or indeed exempting it, in the early years of a new service—the most challenging financial period—until a route is established.
Fourthly, the Treasury said that it is devolving “aspects” of APD in Northern Ireland, making great play of the “unique” commercial challenges it faces—that was perhaps mentioned earlier by the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute. Scotland’s aviation sector also has specific and long-running competitive disadvantages that need to be addressed, and only the devolution of APD will do that. It is unacceptable that the UK Government are still not prepared to commit to the devolution of APD to Scotland, and I warn that such intransigence angers people at first, but when they calm and look rationally at the situation, they see the need for independence, which will be voted for a year next autumn.
According to a report published in October 2012 by York Aviation,
“by 2016 Scotland’s airports will be handling around 2.1 million passengers per annum fewer than they might have been if the APD changes since 2007 had not been implemented.”
It concludes:
“Constraining the growth of Scotland’s airports via APD can ultimately only have a negative impact from this perspective. APD makes it harder for airports to attract new routes or improved levels of service. Over time this will impact on Scotland’s attractiveness as a place to invest and its competitiveness in international markets. This in turn will negatively impact on Scotland’s international economy, including key sectors such as banking and finance, oil and gas, creative industries, technology businesses and advanced manufacturing”.
By establishing the highest passenger tax on flying in the world, the UK Government have finally managed to become the best in the world at something: unfair taxation. They are blocking growth with a gatekeeper tax.
The SNP Government are building a better Scotland. Scottish GDP grew by 0.5% during the fourth quarter of 2012—[Interruption.] The hon. Member for Sedgefield (Phil Wilson), who is from north-east England, might laugh, but I am sure a successful Scotland on his border would benefit north-east England as well. Would he rather have an independent successful Norway on his border or a Scotland that at the moment is in hock to whatever decisions are made by the Tories at Westminster? “Better Together with the Tories” is the Labour mantra.
Phil Wilson
If air passenger duty is devolved to Scotland that will impact on the airports at Newcastle and Durham Tees Valley. To go further and say that independence will help north-east England is ridiculous.
Mr MacNeil
The hon. Gentleman should look to opportunities rather than scaring and fear-mongering. I imagine the opportunity that cheaper flights might afford his constituents would be welcomed, but he can answer to them on that. While Scottish GDP grew by 0.5%, that of the UK fell by 0.3% in the last quarter of 2012. Debt levels in Scotland are lower than in the UK as a whole, and just yesterday new figures revealed the largest rise in employment for 12 years, with unemployment below 200,000 for the first time since 2009. Unemployment in Scotland is 7.3% versus 7.9% in the UK.
Recent figures also show a new record that is very different from the UK Government’s record on APD. Ours is a record of the participation of young people in higher education—a rate that is considerably higher than in England thanks to a policy based on the ability to learn rather than the ability to pay. There is a different philosophy in Scotland. However, we do not measure ourselves against the rest of the UK; after independence we look to have a society and economy that in many aspects matches Norway, Switzerland, Iceland and Denmark, among many others. We know that we can do even better, but we must listen and do what industry is telling us. The message is clear: APD is too high and must be devolved so that the Scottish Government can deliver a better connected Scotland.
The UK Government have been ignoring industry, the people and the Scottish Government for far too long. That is why support for independence will grow, as more come to understand the continuing damage that Westminster does, whether by omission or commission. What is at the root of all the wrong-headedness? The fact is that the UK Government are caught in a trap with their devotion to the cult of austerity. That is seen in the bedroom tax, which will make matters worse pulling by pulling £1.6 billion from the Scottish economy, according to an article that I read, I think, in the Financial Times.
The focus is wrongly on austerity; the focus should be on growth and, as I have laid out, this tax is the enemy of growth. What matters is not debt itself, but debt to GDP ratio. There is then the issue of servicing that debt—the interest obligation, as Professor Robert Pollin said this morning on the “Today” programme when challenging the underpinning philosophy of austerity. With interest rates low, not only is the Government’s focus wrong, their understanding is wrong, and with the cost of borrowing low, the underpinning arithmetic is wrong. This tax is part of the wrong philosophy that the Government are following at Westminster and to which Labour bind us with the Better Together campaign.
I understand that the Labour party leader in Scotland, Johann Lamont, who is the boss of all Labour MPs in the Chamber, including the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire, is presenting a paper to the Labour conference in Inverness that, it is reported, includes the devolution of APD so that it is independently controlled in Scotland. My goodness! Labour is coming round to the independence agenda. Scottish National party Members are delighted with those steps. Surely Labour Members will come through the Lobby with SNP Members this evening rather than deliver a slap in the face to their leader by not attending the conference en masse, or by sitting on their hands today, now that they have lately left what has been known as the Bain principle, whereby Labour Members refuse to support anything the SNP does simply because it is done by the SNP. They could come through the Lobby with us this evening and display not only sound thinking, but their loyalty to, and support for, their leader and boss, Johann Lamont.
I extend the hand of welcome to the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire. I am sure Labour will not want to give anybody in the Committee the impression that Labour in Scotland is not a happy band.
Mr MacNeil
Mr Miliband will not be there long—do not worry about him.
Surely the SNP and Plaid Cymru will not be the only champions of economic growth and the travelling public, and particularly the less wealthy travelling public of Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and England. The travelling public seem to have no champions other than the SNP and Plaid Cymru for their businesses and holidays. I encourage other hon. Members to support the cut of the poll tax on our skies: businesses want it, hard-working families want it, and economic growth needs it.
Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)
When I arrived in the Chamber and listened to the speech of the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil), I had to check that the debate was on the Bill and not on Scottish independence.
I am opposed to airport duty tax. It is a regressive tax and it is wrong. It is a tax on business and tourism, and on our skies and travel. It is wrong not just for little Northern Ireland and little Scotland; it is wrong for every citizen of the UK. I am certainly not taking the position that we should scrap it in parts of the UK. It should be scrapped for all of the UK—the UK Government need to get that message loud and clear.
Mr MacNeil
Given what the hon. Gentleman says, I assume he will support SNP Members in the Lobby when we try to strike down clause 183.
Ian Paisley
I will come to that in a wee minute. The hon. Gentleman will have to bide his time and be patient, or, as we would say, houl yer whisht. Perhaps he knows what I mean by that.
It is important to put on the record that Northern Ireland has an international connection and an international carrier from Aldergrove airport to Newark airport, which is just outside New York. It flies every day in peak season—one flight a day in, one flight a day out. We have no other international carrier. However, the same carrier operates from Dublin, which is 90 miles down the road, to Newark. In the last number of years, the business in Northern Ireland was put under threat for one reason only: the airport authority and the carrier had to subsidise one another to the tune of £1.5 million. Had they not done so, the business would not exist, and people would be forced to travel 90 miles down the road and pay a lesser tax.
The price difference was staggering—it meant that it was possible to travel 90 miles down the road. Filling a car with petrol or diesel and driving to Dublin costs about £50—there would also be a car park charge—but the APD for that international flight from Northern Ireland was £150. The duty in the Republic of Ireland was €3. The difference would have ruined that business. It was essential on those terms that we got rid of APD for that international flight. My position is that I want the duty removed for the whole UK. That is what the debate is about. The measure is about internal flights in the UK, including, of course, our glorious and noble Scotland.
I am concerned that there is an element, or even a huge big bit, of fudge, which we should avoid. The policy, which should be set out loud and clear, should be the scrapping of APD for all of the UK.
Jonathan Edwards
It is with pleasure that I introduce my new clause 4 and new schedule 1; I hope to press the new clause to the vote at the appropriate time.
The UK Government’s Commission on Devolution in Wales, headed by Sir Paul Silk, published the first phase of its report in November 2012. This phase concentrated solely on fiscal powers. Here we are, five months later, still waiting for the UK Government response, which was originally said to be due this spring. In a matter of a few weeks, the cricket season will be upon us and it will be summer, yet we are none the wiser about the intentions of the UK Government.
In short, the Silk commission recommended that powers over stamp duty land tax, the aggregates levy, air passenger duty for long haul, landfill tax and business rates be devolved in their entirety and as soon as possible. It also advocated a sharing arrangement for income tax. In addition, it argued—importantly—that should corporation tax be devolved to Northern Ireland, Wales should not be left behind. I reiterate the point that I made on the closing day of the Budget debate—that we are very interested to see the strong lobby, led by the CBI, coming from Northern Ireland. In total, the fiscal powers advocated by Silk for immediate devolution—the minor taxes—together account for about £1.2 billion of the Welsh Government’s budget.
Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)
Does my hon. Friend find it strange, as I do, that no one representing the Labour party in Wales is present to back the policy of the Labour Government down in Cardiff?
Jonathan Edwards
I am extremely grateful for my hon. Friend’s intervention, as we had a debate in the Welsh Grand Committee on this issue, and Labour speaker after Labour speaker lined up to say that they not only were in favour of the Silk recommendations on minor taxes, but wanted them devolved immediately. They went even further, saying that the Finance Bill was the appropriate vehicle for achieving that.
Mr MacNeil
I have a certain understanding of the word “immediately”, and I am sure that my hon. Friend does, too. Does he think that that understanding of the word is shared by Labour in Wales?
Jonathan Edwards
That is the exact point. This was said to be the appropriate legislative vehicle for devolving airport duty to Northern Ireland, and if it is good enough for Northern Ireland, it is certainly good enough for Scotland and Wales.
Needless to say, the proposed powers fell far short of what Plaid Cymru was advocating as a party. We wanted a more comprehensive list of job-creating and economy-boosting powers, including VAT, corporation tax, resource taxes and capital gains tax. In the interest of compromise, however, and not second-guessing Silk, we are happy to proceed as the commission recommended—not least because the fiscal powers recommended by Paul Silk and his team in the commission’s report are desperately needed for the sake of the Welsh economy. The minor tax powers, the income tax sharing arrangement and the borrowing powers that would be triggered as a result would enable us in Wales better to deliver job-creating and economy-boosting measures and policies to help turn around the continuing dire state of the economy.
Yesterday’s unemployment figures showed a small drop in unemployment in Wales, but the number of economically inactive people went up by 7,000. The rate is still 0.4% higher than in the UK, and there are still nearly 50,000 more people unemployed in Wales than there were before the recession began, and another 50,000 more people who are under-employed. That is on top of the extra 50,000 public sector jobs we expect to be lost in the coming years on top of the 24,000 that have already been lost.
Last week’s research by Sheffield Hallam university and the Financial Times, to which my hon. Friend the Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) referred, highlighted that more than £1 billion is due to be taken out of the Welsh economy over the next year by cuts to social security. This will have a devastating human cost, which is becoming all too clear.
The private sector is already on its knees in Wales due to the depression caused by the disastrous economic policies pursued by both Labour and Conservative Westminster Governments, which have destroyed the productive economies within the British state. It will deteriorate further as money is sucked out of local economies through further austerity. We are yet to see any realistic plan of how jobs and growth will come about in these depressed areas or any effort to counterbalance the austerity cuts, despite the high rhetoric of geographical rebalancing.
There are three important reasons why the Welsh Government should be empowered with fiscal powers as advocated by the Silk commission and as proposed in my new clause. First, it would make the Welsh Government more accountable. Secondly, it would incentivise the Welsh Government to concentrate on developing the economy to raise the necessary revenue to invest in public services. Lastly, an independent fiscal stream would enable the Welsh Government to access the borrowing powers they have agreed with the UK Government.
Labour’s proposals for substantial cuts in Welsh capital spending in the last Budget that it presented before losing office were supported in the Conservative-Liberal Democrat comprehensive spending review in October 2010, which cut the Welsh capital budget by 42%. Announcements in subsequent UK Budgets or autumn statements have meant that the final cut is about 39%. Although that is admittedly a smaller reduction than the one planned by Labour, it represents a huge hit for economic activity in Wales. The devolution of minor taxes and the triggering of borrowing powers would go some way towards filling the gap, enabling the Welsh Government to invest in infrastructure projects and generate economic momentum.
Hywel Williams
I thank my hon. Friend for giving way again; he is being very generous. Does he agree that the term “minor taxes” is a misnomer, given that those taxes constitute a key that could unlock substantial moneys which the Welsh Government could invest in dealing with our economic difficulties?
Jonathan Edwards
That is exactly the point. We have experienced twin processes in Wales. We have had the Silk commission, but there has also been a bilateral negotiation between the United Kingdom and Welsh Governments. The consequence of that negotiation was that the Welsh Government would be given borrowing powers if it had an independent fiscal stream. That is why my new clause is so vital for the Welsh economy.
In January, the Welsh Grand Committee debated the commission’s part II recommendations. Although there was a difference of views over the proposals for income tax-sharing arrangements, it was broadly accepted on all sides that the minor taxes recommendations should be implemented as soon as possible. I must confess that during that debate I became slightly confused. Unionist politicians were in favour of full devolution of some taxes, but opposed to a sharing arrangement between the UK and Welsh Governments in relation to income tax. My natural conclusion following the debate was that as there was a consensus at least in relation to the minor taxes, we ought to get on with devolving them swiftly rather than waiting for what could be years for a new Government of Wales Act.
The most prominent of the minor taxes is covered by the air passenger duty recommendation. It is difficult for us to table amendments relating to the other minor taxes at this stage because consideration in Committee is in the hands of the usual channels, from which my party is excluded, but we are at least able to consider the devolution of air passenger duty. I suggest that that should serve as a spur for the implementation of the other minor tax powers recommended by the commission.
Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)
Does the hon. Gentleman acknowledge that the Silk commission said that his package should be viewed as such—as a package? I share the hon. Gentleman’s impatience as we wait for the Government to respond to part I of the Silk recommendations, but we should nevertheless see them in that light.
Jonathan Edwards
I think that the question for the hon. Gentleman is this: if he favours the devolution of fiscal powers to Wales, should he not walk through the Lobby with us rather than waiting for another Government of Wales Bill? When will that Bill come before the House? When will the legislative gap arise? If he is promising me that the Bill will be in the Queen’s Speech, we may consider whether or not to press new clause 3 to a vote.
If the Committee supports the new clause, I shall expect the Treasury to include the other minor taxes and business rates as the Bill proceeds, and to implement fully this aspect of the Silk recommendations.
Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)
My hon. Friend is making a powerful case. Is it not strange that no Welsh Labour Members are present to debate air passenger duty, given that the Labour First Minister of Wales has spent many millions of pounds of Welsh money on buying an airport in Cardiff?
Jonathan Edwards
My right hon. Friend makes an excellent point, to which I shall return. Fifty million pounds of Welsh taxpayers’ money has been spent on buying an airport, and no Labour Member from Wales is present this evening to vote for a proposal that would enable the Welsh Government to make the most of that asset. It is a disgrace, and I hope that the Welsh media are listening to the debate and will report on it fully.
Mr MacNeil
Is the hon. Gentleman actually informing the House that Labour at Westminster does not want to give powers to Labour in Wales because it wants to leave those powers with the Tories in Westminster? Is that the situation with which we are dealing? Does Labour prefer to put power in the hands of the Tories rather than in the hands of Labour? Does Labour trust the Tories more than Labour trusts Labour? This is bizarre.
Jonathan Edwards
I believe that that is indeed the case.
Admittedly the revenue gathered from the minor taxes, although not insignificant, is relatively small in comparison with the revenue that would be available through the income tax-sharing arrangement recommended by the Silk commission. That would make the Welsh Government responsible for 10p in every pound of income tax raised in Wales. It would enable the Welsh Government to increase their borrowing capacity substantially, and would strengthen the accountability test. My intention is to return to that at a later stage of the Bill’s progress. It would also undoubtedly incentivise the Welsh Government to grow the economy in Wales and provide responsibility for its expenditure. It is also clear that fair funding and the proper resolution of the blatant inadequacies of the Barnett formula, whereby we estimate that Wales loses out on an average of £500 million a year, are desperately needed, but that resolution must not be used to block the partial devolution of income tax or the minor taxes.
Ian Paisley
I appreciate that the hon. Gentleman is clarifying the matter. The power has been devolved but it has not yet been implemented and, like him, I would urge our Executive to implement it. It will help business and the whole of the United Kingdom could benefit, including Wales, Scotland and England, if they get on with it.
Jonathan Edwards
The hon. Gentleman makes a powerful point. That is especially the case in Wales, as the Welsh Government own our national airport.
It is clear that the Bill is the appropriate legislative vehicle to move this issue forward. There is a clear precedent and, as I said, I believe the Treasury should accept the amendment, as it includes all the minor taxes recommended by Silk.
The Labour Welsh Government have recently acquired Cardiff airport, and the ability to attract long-haul flights to Cardiff would significantly improve the airport’s competitiveness. Cardiff airport has 1.5 million people in its catchment area and long-haul flights could attract people from even further afield. The development of Cardiff airport could act as a spur to growth in the south Wales economy, bringing in greater foreign direct investment through better business links, in turn bringing jobs and growth.
Quite frankly, I am amazed that the Labour party has not tabled its own amendment. That goes to show that the First Minister has absolutely no influence over his bosses down here. On Tuesday of this week, he stood in the National Assembly telling the Members and the people of Wales that
“the most important thing is to ensure that Silk part 1 is progressed”.
I would expect Labour MPs to file through the Aye Lobby when we vote, or his authority will be fatally undermined—but as the Labour Whips have sent them home, that will not be the case.
The fact that the Treasury has not used the Finance Bill to implement Silk also shows once again that Wales is an afterthought in the machinations of the British state. Those powers should be devolved, yet there is delay even though it is apparent that there is broad consensus among the main parties who represent Welsh constituencies, as evidenced in the Grand Committee debate and despite the fact that the commission received representations from all parties. Each month that passes by without these powers being devolved, the Welsh economy further deteriorates with job and economic prospects diminished, hopes and dreams shattered and lives ruined.
Over Easter, I attended a major forum meeting organised by Carmarthenshire county council to move the proposed Llandeilo bypass project forward. Despite being high up the Welsh Government’s priority list as a transport infrastructure project, it is being held up as a result of the savage cuts to capital budgets in Wales. If the amendment is successful, it will enable the Welsh Government to access borrowing powers to move the scheme and many others like it forward. In Carmarthenshire there is cross-party support for the project, and I would like to close by kindly informing my political opponents that should they fail to support the amendment their grandstanding in supporting projects such as the Llandeilo bypass will be exposed and there will be a heavy political price to pay in my constituency—a constituency I believe the Labour party view as a target seat come the next Westminster election.
Jonathan Edwards
Well, I am grateful for that comment.
Plaid Cymru has made jobs and the economy its absolute priority. That is why we have tabled this amendment on air passenger duty. We want to create a modern and prosperous Wales, and unlike our political opponents we have little faith in London Governments of whatever colour achieving that ambition. That is why we want the tools to get on with the job ourselves without delay.
Mr Reid
It is important to set out first of all what the debate is not about. It is not about whether air passenger duty is a sensible tax; it is about whether we should be devolving air passenger duty on long-haul flights to Scotland and Wales. I must admit that I was disappointed by the lack of preparedness of the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) for the debate, as he was not able to answer a simple question from the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr Donohoe). It must be remembered that the SNP has the whole Scottish civil service machine to back it up. I am extremely surprised that the hon. Gentleman did not come armed with an impact assessment produced by the Scottish Government to show the benefits of devolving the tax to Scotland. He had no impact assessment whatever.
Mr MacNeil
Is the hon. Gentleman for or against the devolution of APD to Scotland?
Mr Reid
I am waiting for somebody to advance the case for that. The Scotland Act 2012 contains provisions whereby, if the Scottish Government make the case to the UK Government for any tax to be devolved, that tax can be devolved. I am waiting for the Scottish Government to make the case.
Mr MacNeil
The hon. Gentleman is a politician, a Member of Parliament elected to Westminster. Is he unable to advance the case himself to devolve APD to Scotland? That is a shocking state of affairs.
Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP)
Could the hon. Gentleman please tell the Committee what is the policy of the Scottish Liberal Democrats, the party he represents? What is his party’s policy?
Mr Reid
What we are debating today is a proposal from the SNP and Plaid Cymru to devolve certain aspects of APD relating to long-haul flights from Scotland and Wales. I was expecting an analysis to be presented, but hon. Members could not even tell us the number of flights that would be affected. When the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar moves amendments in future, he should present detailed analysis of the benefits and everything else that would be affected.
To compare the situation of Scotland with that of Northern Ireland is not accurate. As I said in an earlier intervention, the justification for devolving air passenger duty to Northern Ireland was the land border with the Irish Republic, which means that people from Northern Ireland would be attracted to travel to airports in the Irish Republic for long-haul flights to take advantage of the lower taxation. That situation clearly does not apply in the case of Scotland and Wales. People would not save money by travelling from Scotland to the Irish Republic in order to take a long-haul flight.
Mr MacNeil
Will the hon. Gentleman conduct a little thought experiment? Imagine that the Irish Republic had the same level of air passenger duty as the United Kingdom. What would the net effect be? It would be fewer people flying, which would dampen our economic growth. The point of having APD devolved is to enable economic growth. I hope the hon. Gentleman can grasp that fundamental point. I also hope that if the Liberal Democrats have a policy of devolution of APD, it is to devolve it to Scotland. If they do not have a policy, I would be very pleased to provide the SNP’s policy, which they can adopt free of charge.
Mr Reid
As the hon. Gentleman perfectly well knows, the SNP policy is clearly for independence, not for devolving particular taxes. He may put forward a good case for not having APD at all, but that is not what we are debating today. There are perfectly good arguments for abolishing APD or for a lesser rate of APD outside London and a higher rate of APD for the likes of Heathrow. The Heathrow tax was mentioned. Good arguments could be advanced but that is not the debate today. The debate today is on the specific proposal to devolve APD on long-haul flights from Scotland and Wales. I am disappointed that with all the back-up that the SNP has from the full Scottish civil service machine, it was not able to present a proper impact analysis today.
As I was saying, the Scotland Act contains provisions that allow the Scottish Government to request that extra taxes be devolved, so there is a system for doing that. I suggest that the way forward for the SNP is to request that the UK Government, under that Act, consider that. We could then have a proper, detailed debate with all the facts and figures at our disposal.
Mr MacNeil
One of the quotes I gave earlier mentioned the fear of the loss to Scotland of 2.1 million passengers before 2016. Would that information not at least encourage the hon. Gentleman, if he is going to develop a policy, to develop one in favour of the devolution of APD?
Angus Robertson
I will ask the hon. Gentleman my question a second time: what is the policy of the Scottish Liberal Democrats?
Mr Reid
I gave way to the hon. Gentleman on the assumption that he would answer my question, rather than coming up with another one himself. I think that we have exhausted this debate. In conclusion, the SNP and Plaid Cymru have not made the case today, so I will not be following them into the Lobby.
Cathy Jamieson
It is always entertaining to hear the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil), who moved new clause 3 on behalf of the SNP. I have shared a few flights with him, both short-haul and long-haul, and know how passionately he speaks on these matters. I hope to take a flight to Inverness in the not-too-distant future—[Interruption.] It is great to hear that SNP Members are so keen for me to get to the Labour conference, along with the other Scottish Labour MPs who will be playing a full part in proceedings.
Angus Robertson
Will the hon. Lady give the Committee a sneak preview and explain to Members on both sides of the Committee whether she will be voting in favour of the Scottish Labour party adopting a policy of devolving APD, and will she be joining the SNP in the Lobby later?
Cathy Jamieson
I will not be joining the SNP in the Lobby, and I will explain why shortly. I will first take this opportunity to remind hon. Members who have chosen to portray in a slightly different way the consultation exercise that the Scottish Labour party conducted that there is going to be a consultation process. I suppose it would be too much to hope that the SNP will contribute constructively to that process. I am sure that we will continue to have interesting debates and discussions.
Let me deal with the arguments relating to new clause 3 and new schedule 1. I think that my hon. Friend the Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr Donohoe), who speaks with some authority on these matters, and the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid) have made clear the limitations of the new clause and the new schedule proposed today. They would not address all the issues on APD, which have been well rehearsed in a number of debates on the Floor of the House. In the Back-Bench business debate held in November last year, hon. Members on both sides of the House raised real concerns about how APD was operating. There was a suggestion that the Government should produce a report, a point I will return to later.
Phil Wilson
We should set aside the selfish approach shown today by the SNP, because APD is an issue not just for Scotland and Northern Ireland, but for many UK regions, including the north-east of England. Durham Tees Valley airport, in my constituency, is under capacity. One way to ensure that we fill such airports to capacity is to have a regional variation in APD. Would that approach not satisfy the whole UK and not just Scotland?
Cathy Jamieson
My hon. Friend makes an important and interesting point. In that debate in November, a number of hon. Members from different parts of the UK acknowledged that there were concerns and there needed to be a fresh look at the issue of APD, not only to tackle congestion in the south-east, but to recognise some of the representations made not only by Scottish and Welsh airports, but by those in the north-east—specifically, Newcastle and Manchester airports.
At that stage, the general view of those representations was that the issue did not affect only Scotland and Wales; it affected the wider UK. Air passenger duty puts a significant amount of funding into the Treasury so it is important to consider the issue in the round. A number of airlines as well as airports have made representations and different business and tourism concerns have been raised.
The issue of the perceived anomalies around the Caribbean destinations was raised as something that ought to be investigated further. The Caribbean Council has raised a number of issues; I believe that it has made direct representations to the Minister, as have some of my Labour colleagues, I understand, in the hope that something could be done.
I am also aware of the “A Fair Tax on Flying” campaign, as part of which more than 200,000 e-mails were sent. Many MPs received hundreds of e-mails during that time from constituents concerned about the issue.
Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab)
Obviously, my hon. Friend will know that there were special circumstances for Northern Ireland; the Northern Ireland Committee, of which I am a member, made that clear. Does she not accept that the United Kingdom has the highest air passenger duty of any part of Europe and that we should be moving towards taking the duty completely away? In the meantime, does she not feel that devolving the matter to Wales and Scotland might be a way forward?
Cathy Jamieson
I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. I know how much of an interest she has taken in the issue. My concern is to look at the matter sensibly in the round. The problem is that, if the amendments were implemented, we would once again have a piecemeal arrangement in which something might happen for Scotland and Wales, but nothing would happen across the wider UK.
As SNP Members reminded us, we are a United Kingdom and we want to ensure that we have the benefits of the United Kingdom and continue to do so. The comments from the SNP suggesting that somehow the 2014 referendum was a done deal and that Scotland would be independent are far from the reality on the ground when we speak to the people of Scotland. Without wishing to open up earlier debates, I should say that I have absolutely no difficulty in arguing for a strong United Kingdom. That does not mean that I would support everything that the Government would do, as some suggested. I am sure that the Minister and others know that that is far from being the case.
Mr Llwyd
How closely has the hon. Lady monitored the views of Welsh Members on this issue? The right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain), the former Secretary of State for Wales, said:
“Given the Secretary of State’s admission that this measure could be included in a Finance Bill, it could be in the Finance Bill”—
this one—
“in a few months’ time. Then we could get on with it.”—[Official Report, Welsh Grand Committee, 23 January 2013; c. 30.]
The shadow Secretary of State for Wales, the hon. Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith), said:
“Why on earth are we waiting and not pressing ahead? The people of Wales need growth in the economy.”—[Official Report, Welsh Grand Committee, 23 January 2013; c. 17.]
Cathy Jamieson
The right hon. Gentleman asks how closely I have been monitoring the situation. I have not only been doing that; I have had discussions with a number of Members, including those from Wales. My hon. Friends from Wales, and from Scotland, appear to be able to distinguish between what has been put on today’s Order Paper as a political fix or stunt in order to grandstand and make some wider arguments, and having a sensible debate about the real issues, which is entirely different.
Jonathan Edwards
On a point of order, Mr Evans. Since when has an amendment agreed by the Clerks of this House been a political stunt? This is what the Labour party is saying in the media. It is a disgrace and it brings dishonour on this Chamber. [Interruption.]
The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Nigel Evans)
Order. Everything that is being debated today is in order; otherwise it would not have been selected. It sounds to me like part of the current debate.
Cathy Jamieson
Thank you, Mr Evans.
I have no concern about whether what is on the Order Paper is in order; of course, if the Clerks have accepted it, it is indeed in order. I recall some of the Members who are bickering and heckling from the Back Benches making similar remarks about perfectly legitimate amendments that Labour Members have tabled in the past, and perhaps making similar suggestions. I am criticising not what is on the Order Paper but the fact that hon. Members apparently wish to widen this debate to the whole question of breaking off certain parts of the United Kingdom instead of focusing on the specific issue.
This is a very serious matter, as was highlighted during the Back-Bench debate that we had back in November. At that time, we as a House came to an agreement that the issue should be looked at in more detail. I would be interested to hear from the Minister what action has been taken. Prior to the election, the Conservatives gave a commitment to look at the per-plane duty. The resulting report was not taken forward for very good reasons; certainly, the industry did not support it. Following all the representations that have been made and the Back-Bench debate that took place, is the Minister now in a position to respond to some of the issues that have been raised today and to say whether a further report is necessary?
Pete Wishart
We do not have a clue what the Liberal position on APD is, and the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid) does not have a clue himself. We have the “jam tomorrow” commission looking at this, but what is the view of the hon. Lady and the Labour party on APD?
Cathy Jamieson
Our view is that we will not support the new clause because we do not believe it is the correct way forward. The Labour party’s position, as already outlined by the leader of the Scottish Labour party, is to put forward some points for consultation. That is the right and proper thing to do. It is of course for the Liberal Democrats to answer for themselves rather than for Labour to do it for them.
Mr Reid
Let me put it on record that I will not support the new clause because, as I said, the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) did not make the case for it. There has been no proper impact assessment. There are mechanisms by which the case could be made, but SNP Members have not done so today.
Cathy Jamieson
I thank the hon. Gentleman. He has put his position firmly on the record in exactly the way I would anticipate, because I know from the work that he has done on the Scottish Affairs Committee and elsewhere that he takes this issue extremely seriously and is not slow to make points that are often not entirely in line with his Government colleagues if he feels that that is the right thing to do. His comments are very important.
I want to finish by probing the Minister further to see where the Government intend to go with this. Although representations have been made, the Government have not committed to anything other than looking at the rates for this year and the year ahead. It is unclear whether they intend to address any anomalies and conduct further work—perhaps building on various independent reports and the work of the Transport Committee—in order to consider the issue in more detail.
Those who tabled the amendments will not be surprised to hear—I suspect they expected me to say this—that we will not support them. I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say about how we might usefully take this issue forward, not just for the benefit of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, which are very important, but for the benefit of the various regions and areas of England where hon. Members are making a case on behalf of their constituents.
The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Sajid Javid)
I thank all hon. Members who have taken part in this energetic debate, which has aroused strong passions in some parties.
Clause 183 sets the air passenger duty rates for 2013-14. These rates were first announced at Budget 2012 and took effect from 1 April 2013. The rates have increased by inflation only. Because of rounding, band A has remained the same, so about 80% of passengers have seen no cash-terms increase in the rates they pay.
Clause 184 gives Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs the power to require payments on account in relation to the APD annual accounting scheme, which was introduced to minimise administrative burdens for the extension of APD to business jets and will improve the fairness of the tax overall. The clause also updates the list of territories in band B of APD to include the new nation of South Sudan.
It is important to recognise the need for the aviation sector to make a fair contribution to the public finances. I remind hon. Members that no tax is levied on the fuel used in international and almost all domestic flights. Moreover, no VAT is levied on international flights and, unlike many other countries, the UK does not charge VAT on domestic flights.
It was in recognition of the fact that aviation was under-taxed compared with other sectors of the economy that APD was first introduced in 1994. It was introduced purely as a revenue-raising tax and it remains a vital revenue-raiser today. However, despite the challenge of the budget deficit that we inherited, this Government have limited increases in APD to inflation only in the period since 2010-11. During this period, rates have increased by only £1 for the vast majority of passengers. Furthermore, recognising the sector’s need to plan ahead, we have provided greater clarity on future rates. Budget 2013 set out that the rates for 2014 and 2015 will rise in line with inflation only. The real burden of APD will remain unchanged for a further year.
Phil Wilson
On the effect of APD on regional airports such as Durham Tees Valley airport in my constituency and Newcastle airport a few miles from the Scottish border, will the Government consider regional APD variations that might incentivise airliners to fly from airports other than Heathrow and Gatwick?
Sajid Javid
As the hon. Gentleman will know, the Government have looked at that in the past and have ruled it out thus far, because the evidence shows that it would lead to significant distortions in the UK market. He will also know, however, that we keep all taxes and duties under review to see whether improvements can be made.
Before I move on to the proposed devolution of taxes, I want to touch on the extension of APD to business jets. A new higher rate has been introduced for passengers travelling on planes offering an enhanced level of comfort. APD on these flights is double the prevailing standard rates for business and first class. These changes improve the fairness of the tax overall.
New clause 3 proposes devolving to the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly the power to set APD rates on direct long-haul flights from Scotland and Wales. New clause 4 and new schedule 1 also propose cutting the rates for direct long-haul flights from Wales to the short-haul rate in advance of devolution from 1 April 2013. The issue of APD devolution is a complex one. As we have heard, it was considered in the 2011 consultation and has been debated several times since then, including here today.
Mr MacNeil
Is the hon. Gentleman saying that there is a competitive disadvantage from APD only where there is a land border with another country or member state? Is that the position of the UK Government?
Sajid Javid
The hon. Gentleman knows the answer, but I shall provide it anyway. As he knows and as we heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Argyll and Bute, passengers who might go to Belfast have the opportunity to travel to Dublin by car. Clearly, that opportunity does not exist in Scotland.
We are working closely with the Northern Ireland Executive to consider options for rebalancing the Northern Ireland economy, and we are carefully considering the recommendations of the Silk commission in Wales. Any devolution of APD, however, must take into account the broad range of views on this subject. In response to the 2011 consultation on APD, a substantial number of stakeholders raised concerns about devolution complicating the APD system and creating distortions in the markets for flights. This concern was reinforced in a recent report by HMRC suggesting that the devolution of APD could lead to market distortion as a result of passenger redistributions between UK airports, without substantially increasing demand for aviation overall.
In considering whether to devolve APD, hon. Members will surely agree that we must assess the risk of replicating the same problems that Northern Ireland faced from lower aviation taxes in the Republic of Ireland. There is clearly a concern about an immediate cut in APD rates for direct long-haul flights from Wales. The Government therefore believe that the devolution of APD is a subject that requires continued and careful evaluation, if we are to be confident about its potential effects across the country as a whole. In undertaking this evaluation, we should take note of recent data showing that passenger numbers are growing at Scottish airports. Between 2010 and 2011, numbers grew by 5.5% and continued to grow last year as well. In fact, Glasgow airport achieved growth of 4% in 2012, Aberdeen airport recently achieved 24 months of consecutive growth and Edinburgh airport will provide more choice to passengers in 2013 than ever before.
Hywel Williams
Will the Minister tell the House what happened to passenger numbers from Cardiff airport over the same period?
Sajid Javid
I do not have the numbers to hand for Cardiff airport, but I am sure that the hon. Gentleman knows the answer. If he wants me to find out for him, however, I shall write to him with the numbers, if they are available.
Talking about Wales, we are considering the Silk commission’s recommendations, as I have said, but we must also take note of the concerns of Bristol airport, which has expressed deep concerns to me that devolution to Wales would have a significantly detrimental impact on its business. In presenting his amendments, the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) referred to the report by the CBI in Wales. However, I have an extract from—I believe—the same report he referred to, which says that
“high mobility between Wales and the UK…is a reason for the rate to remain consistent between the countries.”
Our analysis needs to be based on a full examination of the evidence. We will not be rushed or pushed into making premature judgments. On that basis, I ask hon. Members not to press their new clauses.
Briefly, the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson) raised the issue of APD rates to the Caribbean. As she rightly said, I recently met a delegation of hon. Members to discuss that important topic. I am the first to accept the valuable contribution that British people of Caribbean heritage make to our country. I have promised to reflect on the important points raised by that delegation and many others that have brought up the same issue.
We have a plan to cut the deficit and we have already cut it by a third. Our country’s credibility comes from delivering that plan. APD revenues make an important contribution to the public finances and this year’s inflation-rate increase is necessary. The extension of APD to business jets makes the tax fairer overall. I therefore urge that both clauses in this group stand part of the Bill and ask hon. Members kindly to consider withdrawing their proposed new clauses.
Mr MacNeil
I can tell the Minister straight away that we will not be withdrawing our new clauses; we will be pressing them to a vote.
This has been an enjoyable debate. I certainly enjoyed the contribution from the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr Donohoe), who is not in his place at the moment. [Interruption.] I am told he is on a plane to Inverness. I wonder. I have found an exchange in Hansard between him and me from March this year, when I pointed out to him in an intervention that the UK’s tax
“is reputed to be the world’s most onerous tax on air travel, and I am sure the hon. Gentleman will agree that it is damaging Scottish airports terribly.”
From everything that he said today, we might be under the impression that a certain answer was given, but no. The answer he gave was:
“I do agree with the hon. Gentleman on this occasion; it is not very often I can say that. The Government are doing absolutely nothing for air passengers, the aviation industry and those who work in it. They continue with this tax, while our competitors throughout the world are laughing at us.”—[Official Report, 25 March 2013; Vol. 560, c. 1332.]
I just wish the hon. Gentleman was here now, to come through the Lobby with us and put some meaning into his words.
The hon. Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley) made a very good speech when, as I see it, he described air passenger duty as a win-win situation. I welcome the fact that air passenger duty was devolved to Northern Ireland and I wish those in Northern Ireland well. I hope it succeeds and I hope the economy there grows from strength to strength. The devolution of air passenger duty to Northern Ireland will benefit us all, whether we live in Scotland, England, the Republic of Ireland or Wales. We have nothing to fear, only fear itself. In years to come, when the Northern Ireland economy—hopefully —develops with that, we will see the wisdom of devolving that power and the folly of not devolving it to other parts.
My hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) made a very strong speech—a star speech, in fact. He mentioned the Silk commission and Labour’s immediate need to devolve APD—it was the other week, but of course there is no sign of Welsh Labour in this place today. The word “immediate” has a different meaning for Labour Welsh Members from its meaning for the rest of the English-speaking world. The hon. Gentleman certainly gave us a scary update of the economic situation in Wales, where people face the double whammy of Labour in Cardiff and the Tories in London, with their wee pals in Westminster, the Liberals, giving them a hand. He reminded my colleagues just how fortunate we are to have the SNP Government in Scotland, led by luminaries such as Michael Russell, Kenny MacAskill, Nicola Sturgeon, Alex Neil, John Swinney and, of course, Alex Salmond, the First Minister.
The hon. Gentleman reminded us that the Westminster branch of the Labour party does not want to give powers to the Labour Cardiff branch. Clearly, the Labour brothers in Wales are as happy a band as those in Scotland. We wonder whether they will send an ambassador to Inverness this weekend—I doubt it. They are probably having a punch-up, one with the other, in Cardiff.
Talking of punch-ups, that brings me to the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid), who offered himself to the Chamber as a punch bag and was taken up on that offer. My hon. Friend the Member for Moray (Angus Robertson) repeatedly asked him what his policy was and he repeatedly failed to answer the question. He was even offered the policy free by the SNP, but he would not adopt it, just in case, such was the level of uncertainty. He is a nice fellow but his politics are sadly lacking. The arms are open—if he wants to cross the Floor and join the SNP, he will be welcome. It is his politics he has to change.
The hon. Gentleman said that the SNP had not made the case. Hang about. Any daft case the Conservatives make and the Liberals happily wander through the Lobbies, be it on tuition fees, the bedroom tax—whatever it is, it is yes, yes, yes from the Liberals. He seems to be unable to make the case himself for APD to be devolved to Scotland—that was sadly lacking. Will he vote tonight for clause 183? Will he come through with us on clause 183? Will he vote against the increase or will he vote for it?
Mr MacNeil
The hon. Gentleman has not said whether he is voting with us in the Lobby or voting for an increase in APD. On the fourth time of asking, he is still unable to tell us what the Liberal Democrat position in Scotland is on devolution of APD.
The hon. Member for Sedgefield (Phil Wilson) made me pause and think for a while. He wants to bring in differences in the UK, which I welcome, but sadly he carped at the SNP. I think he took the wrong approach there. I would be happy to see economic growth in the north-east of England. I would not feel diminished in any way if the economy of the north-east of England were to improve, and he should not feel diminished either by Scotland advancing. I suggested to the hon. Member for North Antrim earlier that it is a win-win situation. The view of the hon. Member for Sedgefield is that it is a lose-lose situation. I am pleased to say that that view was not shared by the hon. Member for Vauxhall (Kate Hoey), who could see the benefit of devolving APD to Scotland and Northern Ireland.
The hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson) certainly understands the need to devolve APD, but then argued against it. She said the proposal was piecemeal, but did not want to make a start on it anywhere. Cannot she see that with or without independence more growth in Scotland benefits us all, as more growth in the Republic of Ireland and France surely benefits us all? We should be moving with a big heart to ensure that that can happen everywhere and not be stifling growth. The hon. Lady is a sensible woman and in her heart of hearts she knows the wisdom of the proposal. Of course she strayed a little far and upset my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr, but I am sure that she will reflect that she possibly went too far.
Labour unfortunately is employing again the Bain principle: no matter what the SNP does, no matter how sensible or wise, Labour will not vote for it. If Labour has one other principle, it is the Kilbrandon principle, which it established in 1970, whereby it prefers a Tory Government to independence for Scotland. We have seen that time after time, particularly through the damaging 1980s.
The Minister mentioned inflation, but the Government have decided increase the duty at the highest level possible. I am glad that he is looking at what is happening to our friends in the Commonwealth and in the Caribbean in particular. Disappointingly, he was unable to say whether the duty caused a competitive disadvantage to the UK compared with other countries that we do not share a land border with. I hope that the finest minds in the Treasury can go and research that and perhaps in years to come we will have an answer. For Wales there were no figures.
The upshot of this is that the UK Government are continuing to hamper Scotland. At first, it was a policy of omission, but we can now see that they are clearly hampering Scotland by commission. That is why we must vote for independence in the autumn of 2014.
Question put, That the clause be read a Second time.
Obstetric and Paediatric Services (East Sussex)
(11 years ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD)
Let me begin by thanking Mr. Speaker for allowing the debate, and by welcoming the Minister.
Unfortunately, it is an extremely challenging situation for my constituency that brings me here today: the imminent downgrading of the obstetrics and maternity department and the ending of in-patient paediatric services at my local hospital, Eastbourne district general hospital, which is managed by East Sussex Healthcare NHS Trust.
ESHT, as I will now call it, attempted to downgrade maternity services once before, in 2007, but East Sussex county council’s health overview and scrutiny committee, or HOSC, had severe reservations and duly referred the plans to the then Secretary of State, the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson), who referred the proposals to the independent reconfiguration panel, or IRP.
As the Minister will be all too aware, the IRP is the independent expert on NHS service change and advises the Secretary of State for Health on contested reconfiguration proposals in England. In 2008, it finally published its recommendations, which were that consultant-led maternity, special care baby, in-patient gynaecology and related services must be retained on both sites—at Eastbourne district general hospital and Conquest hospital at Hastings.
The IRP felt that the trust did not make a clear case for safer and more sustainable services for the people of East Sussex and specifically that the proposals reduced accessibility compared with current service provision and that the journey from the DGH to the Conquest hospital posed a risk of incidents for women, especially during unexpected transfers.
Despite clear guidance from the IRP on how the hospital trust must remedy the problem, four years later a report from the national clinical advisory team, or NCAT, has deemed maternity services in East Sussex unsafe. That has given ESHT the opportunity to downgrade Eastbourne’s maternity from a consultant-led department to a midwife-led department almost immediately and, because safety is involved, without consultation. The trust managers have achieved exactly what they failed to achieve all those years ago. Is that a coincidence? I think not.
Let me be clear that I do not contest the findings of that report. How can I? I am not a clinician. However, I am extremely angry that we have found ourselves back where we were, with my hospital losing its consultant-led maternity services. We are back to the point at which we fought and won all those years ago, only now it seems it was a pyrrhic victory and that in fact we have lost. Eastbourne is to forgo its consultant-led maternity after all. Frankly, I think that is outrageous—absolutely outrageous.
Eastbourne is the fastest growing town in East Sussex. Our fastest growing demographic is 25 to 45, the age at which most people have children. The road connections between Eastbourne DGH and the Conquest hospital in Hastings are appalling—that was highlighted by the IRP report five years ago and they are still dreadful.
Where does the responsibility for that grotesque shambles lie? In the opinion of the cross-party “Save the DGH” campaign team, of the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, my hon. Friend the Member for Lewes (Norman Baker)—I am delighted to welcome his support today and although I know he cannot speak in the debate, I appreciate his presence in the Chamber—and of many tens of thousands of people across Eastbourne and the surrounding area, as well as in my opinion, the responsibility lies squarely with the current leadership of the trust and, specifically, at the feet of the chief executive, Mr Grayson, and the chairman, Mr Welling.
It has been made clear to me by many employees of the trust over a number of years that the trust was determined to push through these downgrades, regardless of the recommendations of the IRP. That was obvious for all to see when the chief executive, Mr Grayson, who, when he was asked about the reconfiguration at a HOSC meeting only last month, stated:
“I think it is fair to say the health and social care system in East Sussex failed women and babies in East Sussex when it failed to deliver a change to services in 2008 which, I feel, would have made them safer…we could have done something safer in 2007/08...we need to keep that at the front of our minds as we move into the next period.”
These words do not sound like a senior manager dedicated to implementing a solution that the IRP said was not only sustainable, had the recommendations been properly followed, but in the best interests of the safety of local mums and babies. Or does the Minister disagree with my proposition?
Let me move to the current proposals. The main incidents that led to the safety issues, according to the NCAT report, were problems related to staffing. For instance, emergency measures were required in September 2012 owing to the vacancies for middle-grade doctors and the absence of two consultants, as well as midwifery absences running at about 13%. However, on drilling down into the data, I discovered that the absence of one of the two consultants was due to retirement, and approximately half the midwifery absences were due to maternity leave, all of which, obviously, would have been known in advance. Importantly, other than that, the turnover of midwives was reported as low. This clearly shows an acute lack of planning and poor senior leadership. Staff pregnancy is not a secret, and retirement tends, in my experience, to have a pretty clear lead-in period.
I have brought up these very concerns and others with the Care Quality Commission, having met one of its directors only this week in Westminster. I can safely say that the CQC will in future pay even closer attention to the trust and in particular to the district general hospital.
It is with regret that I also have to tell the House that I have not been hugely impressed with the Department of Health over the issue of my local hospital. The Department has been slow to reply to my letters on what are, naturally, incredibly important concerns to my constituents. For instance, I wrote to the Secretary of State twice on 15 March when the shock news about consultant-led maternity services being switched to Conquest was announced. That will be five weeks ago tomorrow, and I have yet to receive a reply.
This is not the first time I have taken issue with the Department. Immediately before the maternity and paediatric downgrade, the hospital trust also removed emergency orthopaedics and emergency and highest risk elective general surgery from Eastbourne district general hospital. I and colleagues from the Save the DGH team were eventually able to meet the Secretary of State. We made it clear to him that the proposals to remove orthopaedics and general surgery from Eastbourne DGH did not meet all the Government’s four reconfiguration tests. I showed him the meeting papers which clearly state that our local GP commissioners did not support the move. The Minister then agreed to write to NHS South of England to investigate this further, and I received a reply from the Secretary of State a month later, in which he states:
“NHS South of England . . . is satisfied the proposals to reconfigure health services in East Sussex meet the requirements under the four tests.”
In the view of Eastbourne, Hailsham and Seaford clinical commissioning group, emergency general surgery and emergency orthopaedics should be sited at Eastbourne DGH, so clearly those two views contradict each other. I find that extraordinary.
Added to this, we conducted surveys of local GPs and consultants which showed that more than 90% of DGH consultants and 42 local GPs were opposed to the plans, and more than 36,000 people signed a petition against the proposals in only 18 days, which gives a strong indication of the strength of local feeling.
Alarmingly, the Secretary of State also informed me at our meeting that the issue had not even come on to his radar, despite his office confirming some weeks previously that it had received 5,506 letters in three months from people in Eastbourne and the surrounding area. These were individually enveloped letters, yet the Secretary of State was not made aware of them or of the issue. I find that extraordinary.
That brings me to my next key point. I would like to know who in the management structure of the health service or at the Department, both now and prior to the recent changes, is responsible for ensuring that trusts properly implement IRP recommendations, as it is clear in my view and that of others that the trust never sincerely implemented the series of recommendations made by the IRP, which were to maintain two sustainable and consultant-led maternity units. This obvious lack of commitment properly to implement the IRP recommendations was made crystal clear, as I said earlier in my speech, by the trust’s chief executive, Mr Grayson, when he gave evidence to HOSC only last month.
Consequently, I would like the Minister to arrange for me and the cross-party Save the DGH campaign team, which is ably led by the tenacious campaigner for our local hospital, Liz Walke, to meet his officials because we need to establish clear lines of communication with the Department. The people of Eastbourne are being failed, and to address that we need to ensure co-operation at the highest level.
Let me explain how the people of Eastbourne are being failed and what those failings will mean for local mums and babies. First, the proposed changes mean Eastbourne will be the largest discrete town in the UK without essential core services. Secondly, Eastbourne will have the worst population access factor in the UK. The PAF has been validated as a measure of the access to nearest facilities according to the size of population—as I am sure the Minister knows, it is the distance in miles multiplied by the population in thousands.
Thirdly, the NCAT report confirmed that 36% of first-time mothers and 20% of mothers having a second or subsequent baby are referred to a doctor during their pregnancy. Although I accept that expectant mothers will be screened and those found to be at increased risk will be directed to have their babies at a consultant-led unit in Hastings or Brighton, the original IRP report concluded that the risk to mothers was unquantifiable, and the very nature of birth means that there will be examples of mothers who have been screened with no problems detected going on to experience complications. With around 2,000 births in Eastbourne last year, that is an awful lot of pregnant mothers having to be shipped, by blue-light services, across to Conquest hospital.
The South East Coast ambulance service, which gives an outstanding service, gave a range of travel times between 23 and 52 minutes. However, the total transfer time from Eastbourne’s freestanding midwifery-led unit to Hastings consultant obstetric unit is over 60 minutes, and one study showed averages of 90 minutes. The Minister will know that the total transfer time is the important one, rather than the blue-light travel time. It is the total time from the decision to transfer from the FMU to arrival in the receiving bed at the obstetrics unit, incorporating the time for the ambulance to arrive, park, load, travel and unload. Most importantly, it is the total “down time” during which a patient with an obstetric problem will not have access to skilled medical obstetric assistance.
Fourthly, even the NHS pregnancy book advises:
“You should also be aware that if something goes seriously wrong during your labour… it could be worse for you and your baby than if you were in hospital with access to specialised care.”
Let me give the Minister a scenario. A mother in her third pregnancy, which has been uncomplicated, arrives at the midwifery-led unit in Eastbourne, where she had planned to deliver. On arrival, she is found to be in early labour, her blood pressure is low and the baby’s heart rate is slow. The patient is transferred urgently by ambulance 20 miles east to the consultant-led unit at Hastings for delivery. We should remember that the average total transfer time from when that decision is taken to arrival is upwards of 90 minutes.
The baby is born in a frail condition and needs to be resuscitated by neonatal paediatric staff and helped to breathe on a ventilator. The baby will then need to be retrieved by the neonatal transfer team to the neonatal intensive care unit in Brighton, which is more than 30 miles to the west, bypassing the DGH. The mother will also require transfer to the post-natal unit in Brighton in order to be with her baby, and what about her family, husband or partner and the other children and grandparents? I look forward to the Minister telling me how that can possibly offer the mother or the baby a better or safer service.
I find this situation absolutely foolhardy and almost beyond belief. Eastbourne is a growing town that pulls together. We have rolled up our sleeves in the teeth of the financial economic downturn and we are bucking the economic trend: unemployment is down from this time last year, our town centre has secured a £70 million private regeneration investment and we have some of the best performing schools in Sussex. Simply put, Eastbourne is a wonderful place to live and bring up a family, yet—this beggars belief—it seems that our hospital is being salami-sliced, with downgrade after downgrade. It is just plain wrong. I urge the Minister to intervene before it is too late.
It is not only the downgrade of our maternity services that angers me; there is also the decision to close in-patient paediatrics at the DGH. By bundling everything under the “safety” umbrella, the trust has been able to bypass due process on the basis that NCAT recommends that maternity and paediatric services be co-located. In fact, horrifyingly, the NCAT report also states that all core services should be co-located on one site. Will the trust be able to bypass everything in future and downgrade the entire DGH to a cottage hospital at NCAT’s say so? It is absolutely absurd.
Lastly, I have issues about whether staff really can go public with their concerns; frankly, under the current regime they fear for their jobs. I have been contacted by staff from all the different levels in the hospital. All are courageously keeping me informed but, equally, they are profoundly fearful about going public. That puts me, their elected representative, in a very difficult position. I will not breach their confidentiality without permission and they do not give their identities for fear of the consequences, but the trust management is then able to pooh-pooh my concerns and public statements as not being based on fact. In fact, the contract of one of my NHS constituents states:
“If he or she discusses items under consideration by the Trust that he or she becomes aware of with ‘unauthorised persons’, this will result in disciplinary action which may involve dismissal”.
Minister, that not only prevents staff members from bringing their concerns to their democratically elected Member of Parliament, whom the trust determines to be an “unauthorised person”, but they are not even supposed to discuss concerns with their colleagues. Surely to God the Minister agrees that the position is completely unacceptable!
The Secretary of State said recently, and very publicly, that a culture of “openness and transparency” will be at the heart of trying to drive up NHS standards, by encouraging NHS staff to speak up when they have concerns. Well, we do not have a culture of openness and transparency within ESHT and the DGH. That is worrying.
Due to the failings of the local trust and the mismanagement of the situation that has led us to where we are, I, along with my hon. Friend the Member for Lewes (Norman Baker), whose constituents are also served by the hospital, have called for the resignation of the chief executive, Mr Grayson, and the chair, Mr Welling. Again, and in Parliament, I reiterate that call and ask that they step down in the interests of the people of Eastbourne and the surrounding area, so that they can be replaced with a more capable leadership team. The issue does not affect only Eastbourne, but the surrounding area. Last Saturday there was a march in Seaford, which is in my hon. Friend’s constituency. It was supported, across parties, by many local residents.
I also take this opportunity to thank my hon. Friend the Member for Wealden (Charles Hendry), who cannot be here today as he is elsewhere representing the Prime Minister as his trade envoy. His constituents are equally served by the DGH. He contacted me to give his express permission to relay to the House that he, too, wants to know how we reached a situation where these services were deemed to be unsafe. He is also keen for the full range of maternity services to be restored to the DGH as soon as possible.
In wrapping up, I take the opportunity to thank two local mums in particular. Selene Edwards and Amelia West, alongside the Save the DGH campaign group, are working hard to protect local services and in a matter of weeks have both set up Facebook groups with over 8,500 members between them. Such community involvement is bringing the town together to fight the changes.
I shall now conclude. The Minister is, of course, free to address any of the points I have raised, but I am particularly keen for her to address four key points. First, how have maternity services at the DGH been allowed to get to the current “unsafe” position despite the 2008 IRP recommendations being utterly emphatic that consultant-led maternity must remain on both sites? Secondly, were the 2008 IRP recommendations ever properly implemented by ESHT? My constituents and I have lost so much trust as a result of this sorry episode that we would insist, reasonably, that the whole process should be independently audited by medical experts. Was the 2008 IRP-recommended report ever properly implemented?
Thirdly, how do the chief executive and chair of the trust still remain in post when they have presided over this debacle? Finally, I would like to request a meeting with the relevant senior Department of Health officials, so that clear lines of communication can be established with the Department to fix the problem for my local hospital before it is too late.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Anna Soubry)
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Eastbourne (Stephen Lloyd) on securing this debate. Given that no doubt many people in his constituency will, I hope, read all my speech and all the comments I make, it is very important that I make a number of matters very clear. As I am confident that he knows extremely well, this decision does not lie with the Department of Health. When he asks me a series of questions, which of course I am more than happy to answer, he must know, and those reading or listening to this speech must know, that these decisions are local decisions.
The coalition Government have taken the view that it is only right and proper that decisions of this nature regarding the provision of NHS services are made locally. My hon. Friend, quite properly, comes to this place to raise these matters on behalf of his constituents. I make no complaint at all about any Member of this place doing that, because, in many ways, it is our primary job. However, it is also absolutely imperative that when hon. Members, like my hon. Friend, come here and put forward a complaint on their constituents’ behalf, it is made clear where the decision-making process lies and where the responsibility lies—and it lies at a local level. That is why, in replying to his speech, I rely on information provided to me not by my officials in the Department, because they are not party to this decision, but by the various trusts, knowing the processes and understanding that this, as he must know, is a local matter.
I am told that the trust has been experiencing challenges in recruiting doctors for the specialties associated with obstetric and paediatric services. This has been followed by advice the trust has recently received from local clinicians and the national clinical advisory team. That advice, I am told, indicates that the trust’s current maternity and paediatric services cannot continue as they are. I am told that the current arrangements are unsustainable in terms of delivering a safe service to patients. I am sure that my hon. Friend has at heart a desire to ensure that all his constituents receive safe treatments and the safe delivery of their babies. That must be his, and indeed everybody’s, priority.
I am told that it is because of those factors—the shortage in recruitment and the safety of patients—that the trust has had to take urgent action, primarily on the grounds of patient safety. As my hon. Friend knows, the trust met in March and made a temporary decision—this is not a permanent decision.
Anna Soubry
In one moment, if I may, because the clock is against me and it is really important that I place on the record a proper and full response to my hon. Friend’s speech.
I am told that this is a temporary measure whereby the consultant-led obstetric service, neonatal services, including a special care baby unit, and in-patient paediatric and emergency gynaecology services will, in order to make sure that they are safe, be provided by Conquest hospital alone.
Stephen Lloyd
I appreciate that. The Minister will be interested to know that I went to an extraordinary general meeting where the chair said that the measure would be temporary. I got a commitment that it would last for 18 months. I then publicised that and three days later I got a clarifying letter saying, “No, Mr Lloyd, we are saying that in 18 months we will consult on whether it is temporary.” I do not believe that it is temporary, and having the Minister support the idea that it will be temporary means that it is more likely to stay as such.
Anna Soubry
I get the point, but it is not a question of me supporting or believing in anything. I have been given information and am placing it before the House to ensure that the good people whom my hon. Friend represents have the full picture. It would be a serious allegation to suggest that the information with which I have been provided is false. I can say only what I have been told, which is that it is a temporary decision.
That is combined with the establishment of a stand-alone, midwifery-led maternity unit, alongside a short-stay paediatric assessment unit at Eastbourne district general hospital. This means that if a paediatric patient requires in-patient admission, they will be transferred to Hastings under the interim change.
As yet, no woman or child has been transferred to Conquest hospital. I understand that the project plans are in place for the delivery of the interim configuration of maternity and paediatric services, providing a single-site service at the Conquest hospital from 7 May.
My hon. Friend is fully aware that the trust has confirmed, as I have said, that this is a temporary change and, indeed, that a strategic and long-term solution will need to be agreed within 18 months. It is also important to remind hon. Members that I am told that the process will be led by local general practitioners and what we now call local clinical commissioning groups.
I am conscious that the clock is against me, but there is much I wish to say. I press on my hon. Friend that, as I have said, there are no specific proposals at the moment. I am informed that in order to develop a solution, the future of maternity and paediatric services is being considered as part of a separate, countywide programme called Sussex Together, which will bring together doctors, nurses and health professionals, in conjunction with local authority colleagues from across the county, so there is a real opportunity to improve health services and outcomes across organisational boundaries.
I will, of course, write to my hon. Friend to try to answer all his questions. I wish I had been given notice of them, because I could have answered them today, but I am precluded from doing so. At the moment there is no point in my meeting any of his good constituents who are leading the campaign, because there is nothing that we in the Department can do. As I have said, this is a local decision and it is temporary.
Anna Soubry
No, I am afraid that I cannot take any more interventions, because I am keen to place the following on the record. The trust’s latest decision has been taken on urgent safety grounds as a temporary solution, and CCGs—clinicians, doctors and nurses—hope to and will find the long-term solution to the problem. In arriving at that solution, CCGs will want to assess proposals against the four tests that have already been outlined. Adhering to those tests and continuing to focus on the needs of the local population will ensure that proposed changes to services are locally led, not Government-driven or directed by Whitehall.
We hope that everyone will work together, including the local authority’s health and wellbeing board. Moreover, the health overview and scrutiny committee is a very important organisation that can refer proposals to the Secretary of State. It comprises democratically elected members and professionals, all of whom can ensure that the right thing is done.
Anna Soubry
No, I only have 10 seconds left. The committee has the power to refer proposals for changes to services to the Secretary of State—
Westminster Hall
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UN Framework Convention on Climate Change
Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Mr Tim Yeo (South Suffolk) (Con)
I warmly welcome the opportunity to debate the UN framework convention on climate change process—a subject in which the Select Committee on Energy and Climate Change takes a close interest, and will go on doing so during 2014. Our previous report on the subject was published in July 2012, and I will run through some of the recommendations.
In general terms, we attach importance to the UNFCCC process. It is the international route for trying to reach agreement on how to tackle climate change. It is clearly—evidence shows this—a tortuous route, so while we affirm our belief in its vital importance, we should not feel dismayed or frustrated by the lack of progress. There is a danger in thinking that unless we reach a global agreement, nothing much will have come out of this. I believe that the existence of the UNFCCC process is a valuable spur to countries doing things individually. Many of the commitments that have been made on emissions targets and the progress on achieving climate change legislation around the world have resulted, at least in part, from the fact that we have the parallel process taking place—international negotiations—which focuses the minds of individual Governments.
In that context, I commend the work of GLOBE International, with which many members of my Committee and several hon. Members present are closely engaged, in helping to spread awareness of the benefits of climate change legislation. As we speak, the Chinese version of the latest GLOBE legislative study is being unveiled in Beijing by some of our colleagues. Does my right hon. Friend the Minister want to intervene?
Mr Yeo
I am sorry; the Minister was paying such close attention that I thought some gem—some pearl—must be about to drop from his lips, but that will come later.
Let me deal with some of the key recommendations and the responses to and outcomes of the report—first, on monitoring, reporting and verification. We recommended that the Department of Energy and Climate Change push for a single accounting regime to ensure effective MRV. DECC agreed that a common accounting framework was necessary and hoped to see progress on that at Doha. The outcome was a number of changes to the MRV framework to improve transparency and accountability.
Energy efficiency is a subject close to the heart of my Committee in a number of contexts, and we recommended that the Government prioritise it as a mitigation strategy, using EU cohesion funds and EU emissions trading scheme credits to drive energy efficiency policies. The Government agreed with those recommendations, although they noted the need for a stricter cap or for structural reforms to achieve that with the EU ETS. I shall return to emissions trading in a moment.
On the role of the UNFCCC, the Committee considers it the leading multilateral forum through which to combat climate change. The Government share that view. We should not allow the rather tortuous progress to be a reason to despair. Alongside the international process, the bottom-up process should give every possible encouragement. We increasingly see individual countries making national commitments.
Sir Malcolm Bruce (Gordon) (LD)
The hon. Gentleman has already mentioned GLOBE, but does he not agree that if GLOBE had not existed, the progress that has been made in countries such as Mexico and China might not have been achieved and that it is vital that we continue to work at that level? He makes exactly this point: international co-ordination is important as a driver, but without national input we simply would not get international agreement.
Mr Yeo
I entirely agree with the right hon. Gentleman. I am pleased that the Foreign and Commonwealth Office is supporting GLOBE; it should continue to do so, because of the beneficial impact it has had. Interestingly, there is also some correlation between the location of the conference of the parties meetings and progress by individual countries. The progress made in Mexico and South Africa was encouraged by the fact that they hosted COP meetings, and the selection of venues for future COPs will have a bearing on further progress. When South Korea was in the frame to host the COP last year, I was disappointed that it was not chosen. South Korea is another high energy user with a rapidly growing economy, and it has shown a lot of interest in wanting to address the need for low-carbon technology.
We received evidence on emissions trading and the desirability of a global cap-and-trade system, and I think that the Government broadly share our view, but we are all aware of the enormous practical obstacles. Nevertheless, I hope that we face something of a critical moment in emissions trading, particularly after this week’s vote in the European Parliament. It is much to be regretted that the enormous impact of the recession on emissions in the EU—reducing them to well below the pathway that would have been realistically forecast five years ago—is not in any way recognised through tightening of the limits in phase 3. We have seen the effect of that on the carbon price. Alongside that, however, we can take encouragement from the commencement of emissions trading in California at the start of this year, where there seems to be real commitment from the state, and the governor in particular, to making it work, and from the emissions trading pilots under way in China, which we will focus on in the second of the afternoon’s debates.
It is the view of the Committee, and my very strong view, that what happened this week in the European Parliament underlines the damage that the UK Treasury’s unilateral imposition of a floor price for carbon could do to some sections of British industry. That should now be seen and acknowledged for what it is: a straightforward tax, introduced by the Treasury for revenue-raising purposes. It will do nothing to reduce carbon emissions; it might divert some emissions from this country to the rest of the EU, and it might put British business at a competitive disadvantage compared with the EU, just for the Treasury to collect another few billion pounds a year. If the Treasury says, “We’re going to have a tax,” that is fine, but do not dress it up as an environmental measure which, I am afraid, tends simply to discredit the concept of carbon pricing.
Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)
I pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman for the way he has steered the Committee in producing the two reports and for his remarks so far. Does he agree that what has happened with the carbon price and the announcement in the Finance Bill about raising the carbon floor price will act as a direct subsidy to nuclear production companies in this country, such as EDF, in a way that will distort the market? Like him, I support nuclear, but we must recognise that the market will be distorted by giving nuclear a substantial subsidy at the very time when the Government are attempting the difficult process of negotiating a strike price with EDF over the future of energy costs in this country.
Mr Yeo
I certainly do not dissent from the hon. Gentleman’s analysis of the effects. We are at a sensitive stage in the nuclear negotiations and this may be another unhelpful dimension. I would like to see a rational approach. There is an important role for nuclear, alongside a lot of other low-carbon technologies, but we need to get it at the best value for money for electricity consumers and the competitive position of British business.
David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)
I wish to follow up on the point made by the hon. Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner). A subsidy for new nuclear would be more defensible, but the issue is that it is a subsidy for existing nuclear, which makes no sense whatever. I reiterate the point made by the Chairman of the Select Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for South Suffolk (Mr Yeo): such a differential between us and the rest of the EU could wipe out large parts of the process industry in the north of England. It is not tenable—not at all.
Mr Yeo
My hon. Friend is right about the difference between new and old nuclear, and I take his point. I reiterate that my Committee and I are wholly opposed to the floor price for carbon, which is a tax. It is not a green measure, although it was introduced as one, and it was never going to have that effect. I am a great supporter of the concept of emissions trading and a great advocate of more urgent action to accelerate the introduction of low-carbon technology. The floor price for carbon will not do anything to achieve those objectives.
Dr Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab)
Will the Chairman of the Committee reflect on the fact that not only was a substantial floor price escalator effectively announced in the Finance Bill, but that escalator was £1 above EU ETS prices with respect to what was originally proposed in the consultative document on which the new rates are based; was put into place at £5 above EU ETS prices; and now, with the projections to 2015-16, is £12 above EU ETS prices? Does he have any thoughts on that trajectory and the way it was laid out?
Mr Yeo
The hon. Gentleman makes a telling point. It is clear that, even in the Treasury, the floor price is simply seen as a way to extract revenue, but it has chosen to do that in a way that is particularly damaging to some sections of British business. Incidentally, his thoughtful intervention has given me time to remember that, in opening, I should have drawn attention to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests and declared an interest in a number of energy businesses. I reiterate, as I have on previous occasions, that those interests were acquired long after my views on these subjects were formed 20 years ago, when I had some ministerial responsibility for the matter.
I shall touch briefly on one or two other recommendations. The Government agree with the Committee that we should work with industrial sectors and stakeholders to develop a sectoral trading scheme between developed and developing nations. The Government also accepted the Committee’s recommendation that the second commitment period of the Kyoto protocol should last eight years and include a review clause to allow for more ambitious emissions targets, if necessary. They also agree that efforts should be focused on developing the Durban platform, because countries such as Canada, Russia and Japan were unlikely to sign up to a second Kyoto period.
I share the concern of some commentators that more progress has not been made towards closing the emissions gap. Without wishing to provoke my right hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr Lilley) into too much anger, I will quote Lord Stern, whose comments on it were apt. He said that
“there has been, yet again, a very big mismatch between the scale and urgency of action required to effectively manage the huge risks of climate change, and the political will and ambition that has been displayed in Doha. Current commitments and pledges by countries to reduce emissions by 2020 are clearly not consistent with the goal of giving the world a reasonable chance of avoiding global warming of more than 2 centigrade degrees. We are headed on current plans for likely increases of 3 centigrade degrees or more”.
He has more to say, but I think I have perhaps said enough on that point.
The Government also supported the Committee’s view that a target of a 30% emissions reduction by 2020 should be set at EU level, and the view that that would be in the UK’s long-term economic, as well as environmental, interest.
I will leave other members of the Committee to address some of the report’s other recommendations, because I want to allow a little more time, if possible, for the second debate, which is on low-carbon links with China. The process that we consider in the report and are debating this afternoon remains important and, frustrating though it is, I am glad that the Government continue to participate fully and constructively in it.
David Mowat
My hon. Friend makes a point that I have been reflecting on. He says that his Committee is of the view that a 30% cap is in the UK’s long-term economic interest. For my own education, will he tell me the main thrust of the argument on how that long- term interest will be met by that?
Mr Yeo
Gladly. I am pleased that my hon. Friend has raised that point. I was suggesting a 30% target for the EU, rather than for just the UK. I believe it is highly probable that global concern about climate change will intensify substantially in the next 15 to 20 years, and that by the mid-2020s large areas of the globe will be covered by emissions trading and have carbon pricing mechanisms. It is also likely that that will be supplemented, in many countries, by carbon taxes. If that turns out to be the case—of course, I cannot be sure it will—I believe that countries that have moved more quickly towards low-carbon transport systems and electricity generation, and energy-efficient low-carbon buildings of all kinds, will have an economic advantage, as well as their having done the right thing environmentally. The probability is that in that situation the costs attached to fossil fuel consumption will become very high.
I entirely accept that if my expectation is wrong, and if concern about climate change decreases rather than increases, with the world being quite happy to burn huge quantities of coal and gas, my judgment will turn out to have been wrong and a fairly small competitive disadvantage will have been suffered by countries that chose to diversify their energy mix in the way I suggest.
There are also energy security reasons for not saying, “Let’s bet the farm on gas.” I look at what has happened to gas prices in the past five or six years, the International Energy Agency projections for gas consumption, particularly in Asia, and the possibility of planning difficulties with the uncontrolled roll-out of shale gas developments in this country, and I think that in policy terms it is rash to believe, “We have a secure energy future by saying it’s all going to come from gas.” I strongly favour a diverse mix, with nuclear, low-carbon renewables and much more emphasis on energy efficiency—a true “no regrets” policy. Countries adopting that model are likely to be in a better position in the 2020s and might have a big competitive advantage.
David Mowat
I agree with what I think is the point that the Chairman of the Select Committee is making, which is that if the world continues to show great concern about climate change, the first movers might have an advantage. Does it not give him pause for thought, though, that the EU in particular now appears to be showing some reluctance on building in a persistent competitive disadvantage to the United States? That would be one interpretation of the vote this week. If that were to become more pervasive, it would create some issues with respect to my hon. Friend’s analysis.
Mr Yeo
I do not want to get too distracted by that, but the terms of trade in the debate have clearly shifted a lot in the past year or so. The two big factors are, first, that the recession seems to be longer and worse that we had thought—not just in this country, but across the EU, although perhaps for slightly different reasons, and, secondly, the extent of the competitive advantage that shale gas now gives the US. Despite all that, if we say, “Okay, that’s fine. Let’s not bother with nuclear or low-carbon renewables, it’s all going to be gas,” we might find that we are buying gas expensively from a variety of places, which might even include America.
We would not have done much for our competitive position if we landed up completely dependent on fossil fuel imports, the price of which would be completely outside our control, and even the supply of which might not be wholly reliable. I point to the views of all sorts of businesses that are not green-dreaming tree huggers—some are not even connected with the energy industry—but which clearly feel that an energy mix involving a variety of technologies is a better bet than complete reliance on fossil fuels.
Dr Whitehead
Might the Chairman of the Committee wish to consider a distinction between internal domestic prices in the US and its export prices? Might he also reflect on the price of the most recent cargo of liquefied natural gas from the US, and the extent to which it was or was not related to the overriding price of shale gas within the US? The extent to which the competitive advantage of the UK may be exported is very much in doubt, and it is likely that world prices, not US domestic prices, will prevail.
Mr Andrew Turner (in the Chair)
Order. Will Members on both sides of the Chamber ensure that interventions are brief?
Mr Yeo
The hon. Gentleman makes another telling point, which is that a US exporter of shale gas, or any other form of gas via LNG, will sell it in the market in which it can get the best price. It is likely, in my view, that we will see regional gas pricing, with the US, and perhaps north America generally, enjoying a very low price, western Europe enjoying perhaps a middle price and Asia possibly an even higher price, depending on how discoveries go. At any rate, there is absolutely no reason why the US should not sell its gas to the highest bidder. Therefore, it will enjoy an even greater competitive advantage if the rest of the world says, “Okay, let’s all just rely on gas,” because the demand for gas will become greater and greater.
I will conclude my remarks rather than take any more interventions, because I am keen to hear what my colleagues have to say.
John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Turner. I do not intend to take up too much time, but I was fortunate to be the representative of the Select Committee on Energy and Climate Change at COP 18, and I thank my colleagues for allowing me to do that.
COP 18 was an interesting event, and I met the Minister there, but for the next conference of the parties, his Department could look into the fact that I did not have delegate status—I was just a visitor. I believe that I was excluded from meetings that might have been of some advantage to the Committee and of help to the Government. I believe that the current Committee and the one during the previous Parliament have been helpful to both Governments. We might discuss and occasionally argue points, but in general terms there is no political bias and we are all, as we and the Prime Minister would say, in it together. We should therefore point out the problems.
Barry Gardiner
That point is important. Many national delegations include legislators who are not bearers of ministerial office or part of the Executive. I believe that civil society representatives from the UK were given delegate status at Doha. The Government have, in principle, recognised the importance of reaching out and of there being other avenues and channels of communication at the COP. Certainly from the point of view of GLOBE—
John Robertson
I totally agree with my hon. Friend’s point. What he says would have been helpful on occasion. Some of the delegations that I met had made an assumption that I would be at a subsequent meeting, believing that it was important that Britain took a lead, but I could not be there. Not only would my being there have been helpful for the Select Committee; it would have been helpful for Parliament, in effect, to be represented by a member of the Committee. That is something to consider for the future.
Mexico has been mentioned. Along with some of the other countries, Mexico is really taking on board the leadership that has been shown by this country. I met a number of Mexican delegates and people who told me that they were trying to emulate what we did here some years ago, going down the route of a Bill that would give them an energy and climate change policy written in statute. They were impressed by what we had done, to such an extent that I have since met more of them, with my hon. Friend the Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn), who is well known in Mexican circles. I met their energy and climate change MPs when they were here, and saw how important the subject was to them.
If a country such as Mexico, which is an emerging nation, can take that subject on board, perhaps there is hope for some of the countries—Brazil, and even China for that matter—that we might say have not been helpful in promoting climate change properly. However, we are all talking, which is a good thing, but talk is cheap and we must ensure that we get some kind of development from it.
I have noticed that some countries—particularly developing nations, although not Mexico in this case—still harbour ill will towards us, the Americans and any others who have done the things that we are telling them not to do. I have pointed out to them that it is important to look at history, from which we can learn for the future. There has always been a nation or some kind of empire leading the way in development. In the UK, that happened during the industrial revolution, which I do not think we should apologise for, because it was an evolutionary step between what went before and what came after. We have moved on from there, and the next evolutionary step is to start to look after our climate. I believe that, with the work that can be done and with cross-Bench co-operation, we can do that and go forwards.
GLOBE was very helpful, as was my hon. Friend the Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner), in setting it up for me to go to COP 18, because I had never been to anything like it. What should also be taken on board before we send someone else is the need to ensure that they know what will happen when they get there and who to contact. Being a delegate would of course make a big difference.
GLOBE hopes that countries such as Mexico and Brazil will sign up to more on climate change; I think that Mexico will—it has done so—and I hope that other countries will, too. The one country not mentioned by the hon. Member for South Suffolk (Mr Yeo) was the United States. It has not signed up to anything, but I must say that some of the work done there is way beyond much that we have done. The Select Committee recently went to California, which is still ahead of us on this kind of thing. People there tell us that we are doing a great job, and they look to us; yet what they are doing on efficiency levels and such matters is way beyond what we have done until now. We will get better, however, and we will do it.
I believe that, with the support of the Select Committee and my party—I look forward to the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana Berger)—we can ensure that this country is still one of the leaders. In years to come, we will think of Tony Blair as the man who started it all off in relation to bringing energy and climate change into the political arena.
Mr Peter Lilley (Hitchin and Harpenden) (Con)
It is a great pleasure to participate in this debate under your chairmanship, Mr Turner. Like the Chair of the Energy and Climate Change Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for South Suffolk (Mr Yeo), I must draw the Chamber’s attention to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests—not that I am aware of any way in which the outcome of this debate or the issues raised in it could affect my well-being through those interests.
I admit that I was not a member of the Select Committee when it drew up the two reports that we are considering, so I cannot claim credit for them or share in any blame. I put myself forward for the Committee precisely because I was concerned about the rather over-cosy relationship between it and the Government, which has allowed them both, and the whole intellectual establishment in this country, to live in a dream world on energy and climate change issues. Mercifully, through the operation of a secret ballot, I was elected to the Committee.
Those whom the gods wish to destroy they first make mad. One of the early signs of madness is an indulgence in compulsive displacement activity, which could not be a better description of the whole COP process. Tens of thousands of people are displaced across the globe to an environment where they are cut off from reality and the rest of the world, where they can indulge themselves in demonstrating their lack of realism and reality, and where the original objective of obtaining a legally binding agreement between nations to reduce worldwide emissions has itself been displaced by the alternative objective of reaching an agreement to meet again—and to agree to reach an agreement at some distant future time. That is displacement activity on a massive scale, and it involves a massive degree of hypocrisy, given the huge emissions incurred by these eco-warriors as they swan across the globe in jets and hire fleets of limousines, so emitting more CO2 than a small African country.
The aim of displacement activity is of course to avoid facing up to reality, so I will just point out a few facts that have not found their way into the report or into discussions of such matters, but seem to me to be rather pertinent. The original aim of the Kyoto protocol and the agreement in 1992 was to reduce emissions by the contracting parties by 5% by now—or by last year—but world emissions have actually gone up by nearer 50%. By happy chance, the rise in the world temperature over that period was much less than anticipated, despite the fact that the supposed cause of that rise in temperature was even greater and more powerful than anticipated.
Since the Kyoto agreement was signed, Canada, Japan and Russia have resiled from it. Far from making progress in getting countries to sign up, we have lost three very important world players. The US will not sign up to Kyoto or its successor, or to any legally binding agreement, as long as developing countries are allowed to continue to increase their emissions unconstrained. It was not President Bush who prevented America signing up, but the Senate. Senators refused to sign up to Kyoto by 98 votes to zero.
That situation has not changed since President Obama’s election: there is no chance of America signing up to legally binding restraints on its emissions as long as developing countries are not also bound by them. But the developing countries want to grow, and I want them to grow. I do not like seeing hundreds of millions of my fellow human beings wallowing in misery and living lives that are stunted relative to what their material living standards might be if they achieved economic growth. But growth requires energy—it is almost synonymous with the rise in the use of energy—and the growth in energy use needed to raise their living standards will absorb much of their capacity to invest and much of the capital available for them to invest in future decades.
Fossil fuels are the cheapest form of energy. Renewables cost two or more times as much as fossil fuels to produce a given amount of energy. If developing countries were forced to use renewables, they could only afford less than half as much energy as they would otherwise be able to bring on stream. That means they will not use renewables; they will continue to develop by exploiting the use of fossil fuels.
Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op)
I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman has had the chance to go to any developing countries, but I had the opportunity to go to Tanzania last year and saw for myself at first hand how communities, which do not have access to any gas or electricity on grid, were successfully harnessing the power of the sun via solar panels to provide whole villages with energy.
Mr Lilley
The hon. Lady may seriously believe in the use of renewables in places where it is sensible to use them. If an area is a long way from the grid, it may be sensible to use a windmill or a solar panel, even though it will not provide light at night or electricity when the wind is not blowing.
Mr Lilley
If my right hon. Friend the Minister thinks that it is economic at present to store electricity in batteries, he is living in a dream world. That means that it will be not two times as expensive, as is the case with wind, or eight times as expensive, as is the case with solar, but more like 20 times as expensive if it is stored in batteries. If someone could develop storage for renewables, that would be wonderful; I would be grateful to him and he would be a great benefactor to humanity. However, I do not think that my right hon. Friend knows of such an invention.
Gregory Barker
My right hon. Friend is comparing two completely different things. He is talking about industrial-scale storage. As the hon. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana Berger) said, the reality in the developing world is that most people require very small amounts of energy. Typically, they need it to use a laptop, a phone and possibly a refrigerator. Battery storage is not only viable, but happening at scale. There are nearly 500 million people in India off the grid, and hundreds of millions of people in Africa.
Mr Andrew Turner (in the Chair)
Order. I have two points. First, the intervention was too long. Secondly, Mr Lilley needs to bring his remarks closer to the subject.
Mr Lilley
I am merely explaining why the COP process is completely ridiculous and will not result in any agreement. We have this unrealistic agreement between the two Front-Bench speakers that the matter will be solved by installing a few wind turbines and solar panels in villages in Tanzania. India and China, in which effectively half the world’s population live, are industrialising. They are industrialising not by building a few windmills and solar panels, but by building nuclear—sometimes, but that is very expensive—coal above all and gas where they have it. Of course they will sometimes use renewables where it is appropriate and where an area is a long way from the grid, but let us not kid ourselves that because we have seen one windmill in Africa, the whole developing world will develop by means of renewables. If the two Front-Bench speakers, who are united in their lunacy, would like to tell me that that is seriously their belief and that they think the developing countries will grow primarily by harnessing renewables, I will give way to them.
Mr Andrew Turner (in the Chair)
Mr Lilley, it is your choice as to who is to speak. Who do you wish to speak?
Gregory Barker
I thank my right hon. Friend. The key point here is that we are not comparing shale gas in America with the opportunity for development in the developing world. We are comparing the marginal cost of a diesel generator for hundreds of millions of people in the developing world with a renewable alternative. In most cases, it is viable without any form of subsidy.
David Mowat
I just wanted to put my tuppence-worth into the example from Tanzania. If that were the way forward at scale, China would not be building 50 unabated coal stations every year. That is what is happening, but it does not mean that solar power cannot power laptops in Tanzania. The proof is in the pudding. I want to go back to the remarks made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr Lilley). Where does he see nuclear?
Mr Lilley
I am grateful to hear that there is another voice of common sense in this Chamber. Where do I see nuclear? Unfortunately, it has become extremely expensive but it is, none the less, a source of major power that is not dependent on the vagaries of the weather or the fact that the sun goes in at night.
Dr Whitehead
For completeness, will the right hon. Gentleman put on the record the extent to which he accepts any externalities in the extraction, transportation and use of fossil fuels, or does he think that they could be made even cheaper by having 12-year-olds dig them out of the ground with no safety rules whatever, no transportation and no concerns? What are his particular parameters in terms of the comparisons he is making?
Mr Andrew Turner (in the Chair)
Order. I am sorry but we must have brief interventions. That will get us back on to a swifter speech.
Mr Lilley
I do not know why the hon. Gentleman raises the issue of 12-year-olds being employed in any particular industry; I am not in favour of that. Do I accept that there are externalities involved in the activities? Yes I do, and, for the sake of argument, I will accept all the externalities that are attributed to CO2. I am simply pointing to the reality that India and China, with half the population of the world, Africa, with a further major share of the world, and Latin America are going to develop by harnessing fossil fuels. We will not prevent them from doing so unless we ourselves are prepared to subsidise the difference between fossil fuels and the cost of renewable alternatives.
Mr Lilley
I will do so in a moment. I do not believe that this country, or Europe as a whole, can afford simultaneously to bear the costs of cutting its own emissions by 80% and the cost of the developing world’s developing at the speed and pace they want to while we absorb the additional costs we would force them to incur if they did so using renewables instead of fossil fuels. It just will not happen. It cannot happen, and the Government would not get re-elected if they proposed to the British electorate that we should incur that burden.
Sir Malcolm Bruce
May I suggest that the right hon. Gentleman is advancing a false prospectus? No one is suggesting that developing countries should not use fossil fuels. We are saying that they should use a sensible mix, and be encouraged to have access to renewables. That is why, for example, Ethiopia is building dams to generate hydroelectric power and China has a huge investment programme in renewable energy. They know that they have a mix. The right hon. Gentleman seems to be arguing that there should be no mix.
Mr Lilley
The Chinese, whom we will come on to in the next debate, are planning to produce, by 2030, 11% of their energy from renewables. The bulk of it will be hydroelectric, which is a conventional source of electricity; no one would argue against that. Where countries have hydro power and they can harness it, they should go ahead and do so. That has always been happening and it will happen anyway. It is happening regardless of whether CO2 is a serious problem for them. Hon. Members must recognise that the world is developing using fossil fuels. We can wish that that was not the case. We can finance great jamborees every year or two. We can all get together and pretend to ignore it, but as long as those in the developing world are free to exploit fossil fuels and any renewables they find economic or choose to inflict on themselves, America will not sign up either. If America, China, India, Canada, Russia and Japan will not sign up, it seems slightly perverse of us to assume that by gathering together we are somehow going to overcome that resistance; we will not.
Mr Yeo
For the sake of accuracy—I may have misheard my right hon. Friend—let me say that the target in China is for 11.4% of its energy mix to come from non-fossil sources by 2015. That is in less than three years from now. I might have misheard my right hon. Friend, but I think that he mentioned a later date. May I also put on record that China’s explicit goal is to reduce substantially the use of coal as a proportion of its total energy mix over the next two decades, and it is already the world’s largest investor in renewable energy sources?
Mr Lilley
I take all those points, and I probably did give the wrong date for the Chinese. However, I remember also seeing their figure for further ahead, which was not much higher. There would be a large increase in the amount of renewables, but not in the percentage of renewables, and still the vast bulk of their energy will come from conventional sources.
We can make ourselves feel better by bigging up in our mind the amount of renewables and by getting warm feelings about the sight of solar panels bringing light to small villages in isolated parts of Africa. However, if we seriously imagine that these great jamborees will result in an agreement by the countries in the developing world to constrain significantly their ability to grow by constraining their ability to use fossil fuels, we are living in a dream world, and everything that has happened in this debate suggests that the majority of Members present for it are part of that dream.
David Mowat
I will make a quick intervention to point out that we are saying that fossil fuel usage is a developing world phenomenon—it is not. The EU is increasing its use of coal. Last year, the increase of coal use in the EU was significant. For example, it is one of the reasons why Germany has much higher carbon usage than we do, both per head and per unit of GDP.
Mr Lilley
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Of course, Germany is moving away from renewables, if one counts nuclear as a renewable. It is moving away from nuclear. It is planning to close down all its nuclear plants, and by and large that will mean replacing them with fossil fuel plants instead. [Interruption.] Does the hon. Member for Southampton, Test (Dr Whitehead) want to intervene?
Dr Whitehead
I was just pointing out that the right hon. Gentleman said that nuclear is a renewable. I recall the process of getting uranium out of the ground in order to fuel nuclear reactors, and once it is out of the ground it cannot be put back in again. Nuclear is not a renewable.
Mr Lilley
Okay. I take the hon. Gentleman’s pedantry in good heart, since I am a pedant myself. I should not have said “renewable”; I should have said “non-fossil fuel”. Nevertheless, Germany is moving away from its dependence on nuclear, which is a non-fossil fuel, and it will rely more on fossil fuels, despite its already large commitment to solar and wind.
At this point, Mr Turner, to avoid yet more interventions, which might incur your wrath, and further replies to them from me, which might be too long, I will leave Westminster Hall to those who wish to indulge their fantasies in public, so that they can have their say.
Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)
Mr Turner, it is a great pleasure to speak in this debate under your chairmanship. I should declare my interests, such as they are. They are non-pecuniary, but I am the chairman of the board of GLOBE International, which has already been referenced in this debate.
There is one thing at least on which I agree with the right hon. Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr Lilley), and that is that those whom the gods wish to destroy they first make mad. I wonder whether he would agree with me on another epithet, or epigram: just as the stone age did not end because of a lack of stone, so the oil age will not end because of a shortage of oil. But while we have many fossil fuel resources left in the world that we are able to mine and access, and which countries are seeking ever more to discover the resources to dig or pump up and use, none the less there will be a time, I think, when we realise that the effects of doing so are such that we have to desist.
I will focus my remarks more clearly on the UNFCCC itself and the process of the UNFCCC. I begin by outlining why a change in climate should matter at all. The UNFCCC is the United Nations framework convention on climate change and the world has occupied itself with this problem of climate change for a very long time now; why should we? It is certainly the most complex and intractable question of justice that the world has ever seen, in that it is not simply about justice between peoples separated by geography and wealth, but about justice between peoples separated in time, across the generations. It has proved a singularly intractable problem to reconcile those competing interests.
Why does a change in climate matter? In and of itself it should not, were it not for the fact that species—biodiversity—find it difficult to keep pace with the rate of climate change. What we have seen is a change in the rate of extinctions in the modern era that has gathered pace to such an extent that we now have, in comparison with the fossil record, a 1,000% increase in the rate of extinctions. That is higher than in any other period in the whole of the fossil record. We are living in the midst of that, and sometimes when living in the midst of things it is difficult to see the wood for the trees; but that is what is going on. The rate of extinctions that we are experiencing is really quite remarkable.
Mr Lilley
Does the hon. Gentleman recognise that although extinctions are taking place, particularly localised extinctions, they are almost exclusively due to change in habitat as a result of economic development, not as a result of change in temperature? I believe that only one species is known to have been rendered extinct by a change in temperature.
Barry Gardiner
No, I do not accept that at all—not at all—because if the right hon. Gentleman looks at marine life in the oceans, he will see what is happening in tropical coral reefs because of the changes in temperature in the oceans. Whole ecosystems are quite simply being destroyed by the changes in temperature in the oceans.
Mr Lilley
The hon. Gentleman said that we were living through the biggest extinction since perhaps the Palaeozoic era, and he implied that that was through climate change, but he has been unable to cite a single species that has been rendered extinct through climate change. I invite him to do so, or to give me a source where I could find that information.
Luciana Berger
I thank my hon. Friend for giving way. I was able to do some research on my iPad during those interventions, and I was able to identify just one such species—the Ecuadorian harlequin frog.
Luciana Berger
Forgive me. Well, I just found that first one; I will endeavour to find some more species during the course of our debate. That was the first one that came up in my Google search.
Barry Gardiner
I think that the right hon. Member for Hitchin and Harpenden will not dispute the fact that we are living through the greatest period of extinctions that has been known in the fossil record; he has not disputed that. What he has sought to dispute is whether it is in any way linked to a change in climate, and therefore whether it is in any way linked to the rise in the use of fossil fuels. He should look at the way in which species are migrating—he talked about a loss of habitat, but the reason why there is a loss of habitat in many parts of the world is, of course, because of the change in climate, which has actually destroyed the habitat that used to be there. I do not think that he can separate out, in the way that he seeks to, the effects of climate change from the effects of habitat destruction. To do so is precisely to ignore what is going on.
We have to understand that 50% of the GDP of the poorest people in the world is dependent on their immediate environment, and it is that immediate environment that is under such significant threat. In parts of Africa, we have seen whole habitats destroyed. I sometimes wonder why we spend millions of pounds protecting our vessels as they pass the coasts of Ethiopia and Somalia but never give a thought as to why the pirates that we are protecting them from are there in the first place. Of course, they are there in large part because of the desertification that has taken place in that part of Africa—because of the loss of agriculture and of economic opportunities there. Not to link what is happening with climate change to the sustainable development goals would be a serious error indeed.
Let us consider the Durban platform for enhanced action that has been established, and let us look at the way in which, by 2015, we are to try and arrive at an agreement between countries as to what will happen in 2020 in respect of the commitments made there. Many hon. Members have talked of the difficulty in securing those commitments and the difficulty of some countries agreeing their programme of action without certainty and knowledge of what other countries are prepared to do. Russia, Canada and Japan have been mentioned as examples. These are extremely difficult negotiations because, as the Committee’s report acknowledges, every country will act in its own national interest. During the negotiations, we have been true to form and have very often acted in our national interest as well.
I would challenge the Minister on some of the positions that our country has adopted in the negotiations. Let us consider the position that we have adopted with respect to Russia. We have been saying, “With all the hot air that they had after the demise of the Soviet Union, they have arrived in a much more fortunate position, and we want now to discount that.” But in that negotiation any Russian with common sense would say simply, “Look, our economy suffered an enormous transition—an enormous hit on our domestic economy. We’ve paid the price for being in the position that we are now in, with that hot air, with those emissions credits.”
The original intention of Kyoto was simply that we should see the reduction below 1990 levels. Perhaps due to the collapse of the old Soviet economy, Russia has achieved that reduction, but it has not achieved it without substantial cost. That is just one example of the way in which the negotiations that we believe we are entering into in good faith may be perceived by the other side as negotiations that are not being conducted in good faith. Sometimes we have to look much more carefully at the principles of equity when we consider how one reaches a just settlement in this area.
For example, in discussions that are often entered into about what is happening in China and India—we will debate China more specifically later—we often say, “These are the emerging economies and emerging powers and, of course, China is building so many more coal-fired power stations and its emissions are growing at a tremendous rate.” Yet somebody in India will say, “Yes, but let’s look at our population and let’s see what our emissions per capita are.” They will say that, in India, the emissions are approximately 2 tonnes per capita, whereas in this country they are well into double figures and in America they are probably 10 times what the average Indian would expend.
We have all entered into the negotiations at the UNFCCC from a position of national self-interest. Unless we understand that this is genuinely a boat in which we all either sink or float, we will not arrive at a resolution that is fair and has any chance of success.
David Mowat
I am interested in the hon. Gentleman’s analysis, particularly in respect of the national point and Russia. Some countries—how can I put this?—might benefit from climate change, including Russia, because there is a lot of tundra there. I wonder whether the COP might look at the possibility of globally taking advantage of that phenomenon, given that my right hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr Lilley) may be right in saying that we are not going to stop coal being burned at the present rate.
Barry Gardiner
The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. I do point out that he has conceded that climate change is real, and that it will have a differential effect in different parts of the globe. It is difficult to predict what that differential effect will be, but one of the core predictions is that there is every expectation that parts of Russia that are now tundra and unfarmable will gradually be released as good agricultural land. Therefore, from the Russian point of view, climate change, if and when it happens, will not be a significant problem. However, the problem is that with the release of that land into farmable condition, a lot of methane will be released into the atmosphere, which will turbo-charge the process. But the hon. Gentleman is right to mention that.
The international negotiations must take on board the fact that although there are real downsides for some economies—indeed, small island states are in danger not just of their economy, but of their whole territory going down the pan—countries such as Canada and Russia may make substantial economic gains through this process. That is why we cannot simply go into the negotiations with the viewpoint that climate change is a universal disaster and we must stop it at all costs. We have to understand that some people expect to gain and some expect to lose. That makes these negotiations all the more intractable, and makes it more difficult to get a just resolution. I absolutely endorse the hon. Gentleman’s point.
David Mowat
It might be a more fertile route for the world to look at that interaction between those that are gaining and losing, rather than trying to stop what would appear to be the unstoppable, in terms of coal burning at scale.
Barry Gardiner
The negotiations absolutely have to consider where the balance of costs and benefit lies and take that into account. Without doing that, we will not get anywhere; I agree.
The funding of the climate negotiations process is critical. I congratulate the Government on the way in which our country has stepped up to the plate with the short-term funding committed in 2009 through to 2012. They have delivered that, if not 100%—it may be 100%—then pretty damn close to 99%. They have not just committed and delivered the funding, but ensured that 50% of it went to adaptation. Many countries that promised such start-up funding committed themselves to the principle of at least 50% going to adaptation but then did not deliver. It is absolutely vital that such commitments are honoured, because they are the ones that build trust into the negotiation. When countries see other nations commit funds and then deliver them in the way that has been promised, it builds trust into the whole process.
When Christiana Figueres, the executive secretary of the UNFCCC, came to London in January and spoke in the Locarno suite of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, she made it clear that the only way in which we would achieve success on the Durban platform and see a resolution and a conclusion to the negotiations in 2015 was to build trust at national level. She made it clear that any agreement in 2015 would as much reflect what was going on at the national level—the legislation that was being passed and the regulations and policies that were being enacted by Governments—as it would define climate legislation into the future.
For many years, Governments across the world appeared to think that all we needed to do to solve the problem of climate was to get together and reach a legally binding agreement. Well, that was always a chimera; it was never going to be the case because, no matter what Governments agree to, it must be brought back and legislated on in their Parliaments. That legislation must then be implemented. Funds have to be voted to ensure that the legislation is implemented properly and fully, and the implementation must be monitored, audited and carried out.
That is why I refer to the study launched by Christiana Figueres in the Locarno suite—the GLOBE International climate legislation study—which focuses on climate legislation enacted in 33 countries. The study sets out the progress that each country is making on enacting its own legislation and regulation, and that builds trust into the whole system. Often countries ask, “Why should we act to the detriment of our own industry by enacting climate legislation? It will put us at a disadvantage to everyone else.” But actually, countries are not acting alone. Countries throughout the world are taking positive steps to enact legislation on climate because they perceive the problem. Such a study is perhaps the best way to show the sceptics that their country is not alone, to build trust and enable the negotiations to proceed in the way alluded to by Christiana Figueres.
Finally, since the Bali conference, REDD—reducing emissions from deforestation and forest degradation—and REDD+ have been one of the most important ways of advancing our aspirations for reducing emissions into the atmosphere. Emissions from deforestation and forest degradation amount to about 17% to 20% of emissions produced each year. I pay tribute to legislators in Brazil for the work that they have recently concluded on the forest code, and for reducing their own emissions so substantially over the past three years. I pay particular tribute to legislators in Mexico, who passed important REDD+ legislation to enable REDD funding to come through.
We often find that, in countries that are major forested domains, property rights are very difficult to establish because there are different layers and levels of rights, such as customary use rights, that sometimes make it impossible to disentangle who has the right to operate, to log or to use a piece of land in a particular way. By teasing those out and codifying all the issues, REDD+ will be enabled, as part of the international negotiations, to reduce really effectively the emissions from that most important sector.
Colleagues are keen to move on to the second part of our debate, so I will draw my remarks on the UNFCCC to a close. I believe that the process is worth while, but I recognise that it is not simply the international negotiations process, in which thousands of people come together every year, that will resolve the matter; it is by detailed work at national level, open to scrutiny by national Parliaments and enacted through national legislation, that we shall build the trust in the international community that will enable the executives, through the UNFCCC, to arrive at a negotiated agreement, we hope, in 2015.
[Mr Clive Betts in the Chair]
Dr Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab)
I, too, will try to be brief, because I know that an important debate on China and the low-carbon economy will follow. That debate may shed light on some of our interesting diversions in this debate.
Fundamentally, we have been invited this afternoon to justify why the COP process is important. There are those who say that it is all a complete waste of time—we will burn all the fossil fuel that we can get our hands on—and ask why we are concerning ourselves with the process. Most simply, the Earth is very good at storing stuff and does not need over million of years to balance how it works as a planet. Humans, with the great gift of consciousness, are also very good at finding all that stuff, digging it up and burning it within a few hundred years, compared with the millions of years that the Earth has taken to store and balance it in the first place. I assume that the right hon. Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr Lilley) also agrees with this, but if, over the next 100 years or so, clever humans find and burn all the fossil fuel, the outlook for the world would be very poor indeed.
The world simply cannot do that over the next 100 or 150 years. That seems to me to be a fairly self-evident fact, assuming that people agree that there is some relation between what we do—burning fossil fuels in particular, and human activity in general—and the state of the world’s atmosphere and the extent to which the Earth will warm up as result. Someone who thinks that there is no connection whatever would presumably not be concerned about finding all the fossil fuel in the world and burning it all. Someone who thinks that there is a connection, and an urgent one, would presumably wish to do something about it fairly urgently. Since climate change and, in particular, the results of the burning of fossil fuels know no boundaries, the only way that we can do something about the situation over the medium term is through interaction and discussion between states throughout the world about achieving an outcome that is not as disastrous as it would be if every country went its own way individually.
That seems to be the basic point about the COP process, and although I shall come to a caveat in a moment, that cannot be replicated by people doing what they feel like individually in different countries around the world, partly for the reasons that have been rehearsed this afternoon: people want to go their own way in how to develop their economies. Realising the extent to which that is not an option for any of us over the next 100 years or so is part of the process of recognition that international agreements are important. Indeed, under certain circumstances some consequences have been turned back by international agreements. The Montreal protocol and the action on chlorofluorocarbons was a global agreement to the disadvantage of certain places resulting in a substantial change; what would otherwise have been a difficult outcome for at least parts of our climate has apparently been substantially mitigated and possibly reversed. The COP process is important in that respect.
For the record, one of the immediate consequences of deciding to go off in a different direction can be seen in the 2013 Budget: the carbon floor price is a unilateral tax introduced in the UK, the operation of which does not directly save a single tonne of carbon. It was supposed to be introduced on the basis of a £1 rider on the EU ETS—an inter-country co-operation on carbon cap and trade—but that turned into a £4.94 rider on the ETS when it comes in this year. From next year, it will be £9.55 on top and, in 2015, £18.08 on top, compared with what would have been £7.28 and £9.86, respectively, under the original proposals. That is not mission creep but mission gallop, and often in an entirely different direction. The result is an £18 differential between a power station introducing energy to the UK from the Netherlands and a power station producing energy within the UK. A power station developer might now think, “I will go and put one up in The Hague now because, for my power station developments, that will save me £18 per tonne of CO2 over the next few years.”
As my hon. Friend the Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner) outlined, the free money—not for new nuclear, but for existing nuclear—turns out to be not only for all the nuclear power stations in place, but for the two extensions agreed last year and this year. Calculations based on what the carbon floor price would have been when it was first introduced make that £44 billion over the life of the extensions for the four power stations; the new figures are about 30% more. Frankly, I will be surprised if EDF does not go ahead with a new power station on the back of that free money, although I know those are two slightly different things. My point is about the distorting effects of a one-country go at such a scheme, even if that was the intention, rather than its being a dash for money by the Treasury. That illustrates, as other things might not immediately, how important it is to go ahead with international negotiations and to get collective action. Everyone would then be in the same place and on the same level playing field.
David Mowat
The hon. Gentleman makes the argument for the money being used as a cross-subsidy. Unfortunately, EDF will not look at it that way; I would be happier if it did, because that would mean getting Hinkley Point, but I am concerned that that will not happen.
Dr Whitehead
The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. EDF will probably use the money to shore up its dodgy international finances, rather than to develop new nuclear power stations. Nevertheless, the effect is there: a substantial subsidy, merely for continuing to do what it did, as a result of an instrument in one country alone. That is my point, not how EDF will use the money.
That is why the international COP process and, contributing to it, joint targets backed up by individual country targets are important. My hon. Friend the Member for Brent North mentioned the extent to which, almost under the radar internationally, countries are beginning to take the sort of action that we in this country have already taken with climate change legislation. One of the ongoing processes recorded in the Select Committee report is that countries, even those that might be advantaged by global warming, are undertaking their own climate change legislation.
It is vital the UK does everything that it can over the next few years to support countries to develop their own climate change targets and to join us in ours, so that progress towards a level playing field can be considerably advantaged as the negotiations take place. One thing that we should resolve today not to do is to indulge in any tinkering with our climate change targets, as we try to move towards international agreement on other people’s climate change targets, given that that would send a very bad signal indeed to other countries, some of which are beginning to take their climate change legislation directly from what we have done in the UK.
That is a call not for action, but for us to defend what this country has done. Our actions have not just made a contribution to what will subsequently be the international level playing field, but are a beacon that shows how these things can be done. Our duty now is not just to say, “We’ve done it, so you should do it, too,” but to stick with what we have done and to ensure that the process that we are working to is not revised away, wished away, downgraded or put in a cupboard by others, while some take what we consider a more appropriate direction on international agreements.
Of course, there is a whole range of other issues regarding COP 18 and beyond, but what I have just described is among the important emerging issues; indeed, it featured substantially at the Doha discussions. It may be a mark of our contribution over future years that the steps that I have described are among those that we take to move discussions forward in a way that produces international agreements, which are vital to any hope of ensuring that our planet lasts in a fit state for the next few hundred years. Of course, it will last, but perhaps not in a fit state for us, although it might be in a fit state for somebody else. Whether our planet will be in a fit state for us over the next few hundred years, however, will be very much determined by whether people from around the world gather to discuss these issues. The issue is whether we make the planet fit for purpose, fit for us and fit for the future; that is what we have to concentrate our minds on.
Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Betts. I thank the Chair of the Committee, the hon. Member for South Suffolk (Mr Yeo), for the way he introduced the debate and congratulate the Committee on producing its report.
We have heard some insightful speeches from my hon. Friends the Members for Glasgow North West (John Robertson), for Southampton, Test (Dr Whitehead) and for Brent North (Barry Gardiner). Members will not be surprised to hear that I do not necessarily share the views of the right hon. Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr Lilley).
As the Chair of the Committee said, events have moved on somewhat since the report was produced, not least because COP 18 has taken place. During the conference, four Gulf states—Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain and the United Arab Emirates—announced that they were ready to submit emission reduction plans to the UNFCCC. I listened to what the right hon. Gentleman said about the developing world, but I am not sure whether he knows that, last month, the group of 49 least developed countries also announced they are now prepared to commit themselves to binding cuts in their greenhouse gas emissions.
While some progress has been made, many challenges remain. Canada, Japan and Russia have all said they will not be part of the extension of the Kyoto protocol, and yesterday the International Energy Agency warned that the continued global reliance on coal and the rapid development of emerging economies meant that despite
“a boom in renewable energy over the last decade, the average unit of energy produced today is basically as dirty as it was 20 years ago.”
In some ways, that is depressingly familiar, but it reinforces the point that any solution to climate change requires a global agreement that limits carbon emissions, as well as a rapid expansion of low-carbon energy generation. In that context, the main consensus on the proceedings at Doha was that they were a modest step forward.
Luciana Berger
During the Committee’s special evidence sitting following the conference, my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North West commented:
“If it was a road map, the car is still on the road”.
There was not the forward movement we hoped for. Only one country—the Dominican Republic—signed up to new carbon emission targets. Although I welcome the fact that four Gulf states made a commitment to submit reduction plans, that has yet to happen. The most important thing was that the conference agreed an extension of the Kyoto protocol and re-established a timetable for agreeing a global deal in 2015.
As to the substance of the report, Labour Front Benchers support many of the Committee’s recommendations. We have supported and will continue to support the Government’s efforts to secure a global, legally binding framework to cut CO2 emissions. We agree with the Committee and the Government that the UNFCCC is the forum that offers the best opportunity for securing such an agreement, and that there is a need for a single transparent accounting regime, but this is the point at which I want to hold the Government to account.
We also support an EU target of a 30% reduction in carbon emissions by 2020. Anyone reading the Government’s response to the Committee’s report would be led to believe that the Conservative party supports that as well, yet proposals to introduce a 30% target have come before the EU Parliament twice in the past two years, and have twice been defeated because Conservative MEPs voted against them. I hope that the Minister might share with us his thoughts on why they did that, or, more to the point, why the Prime Minster did not do anything to stop them.
Will the Minister also tell us why this week 21 Conservative MEPs voted against attempts to rescue the EU ETS by back-loading 900 million carbon allowances that were due to be auctioned later this year? That was despite the fact that the Secretary of State told the Select Committee:
“We have the proposal for back-loading on the table. We do not think it is ambitious enough. We think we want to see both back-loading and cancelling, because that could make a significant difference to increasing EU ambition almost in one leap.”
Given that the Secretary of State clearly stated that the Government support back-loading, why did Conservative MEPs actively scupper the proposals?
The UK is responsible for 2% of the world’s carbon emissions. We have a responsibility to reduce them, for all manner of reasons, but on our own we cannot solve the problem of global climate change. Part of the leadership role that we can play in international climate negotiations will be as part of an EU bloc, so why are the Minister and the Prime Minister allowing the UK’s credibility to be undermined by Conservative MEPs? I know from previous exchanges on such matters that the Minister has a habit of dismissing anything that he does not want to hear, or that highlights the shortcomings of the Government, as partisan rhetoric, but it is not partisan to point out that the view of the UK as a climate change leader on the international stage is diminishing. As my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North West said during the Committee’s hearing following Doha, the message that he heard from our European partners was that they felt the UK was backing off from the leadership it had shown in the past.
In an ideal world, between now and 2015 the Prime Minster would go around Europe and the rest of the world championing Britain’s low-carbon progress, but we know that he cannot do that. He can try, and I hope he will. He can go to China, the United States and our European neighbours, and I am sure they will listen politely to his spiel about how the Government are the greenest Government ever, and nod as he tells them how personally committed he is to combating climate change. I am equally sure that they will then disregard what he says, because they read newspapers, too, and they know the Government’s record as well as we do. They know that under this Government investment in renewable energy has halved, and that the Prime Minister barely talks about climate change any more—he has not yet attended an international conference on the matter, and cannot get his own MEPs to support an increase in carbon reduction, let alone ask them to do more. No matter what the Prime Minster says, he cannot change the reality.
Things do not have to stay that way, however. The Government should act now to improve their record and give the UK a stronger negotiating position in the run-up to 2015.
David Mowat
From the tone of the hon. Lady’s remarks it would seem as if the UK were among the higher producers of carbon in the EU, whereas, according to EU figures, we produce 8.8 tonnes per capita. That is among the lowest in the EU and 30% lower than countries such as Germany, Holland, Ireland and Poland. I find her remarks odd in that context.
Luciana Berger
I am not sure how that point relates to mine about our responsibility to continue in our leadership role on the international stage—a role for which, in the past, we have been held in high esteem and taken seriously—and about remarks recorded in the report that show a diminishing in our standing, and therefore our effectiveness, on that international stage. As I said, 2% of global emissions come from the UK. We have a responsibility, domestically, to reduce them, but we cannot solve the problem alone.
John Robertson
Does my hon. Friend agree that leadership from this country is important in the international arena, mainly because we were the country that set the pace, with the first ever Bill that had climate change in it?
Luciana Berger
We were, proudly, the first country in the world to do that, when we passed the Climate Change Act 2008, with a view to reducing our emissions by 2015 in relation to 1990 levels. The Act is held in high regard in countries that I have visited, but legislation is not enough if it is not acted on and if the Government’s actions do not match it. That is why it is important that the Government do all they can to live up to their ambition to be the greenest Government ever, and not slip behind. Then they would be held in high esteem on the international stage.
Mr Lilley
The hon. Lady’s party has abandoned unilateralism in nuclear weapons on the ground that setting an example would not stop other countries following a policy of obtaining nuclear weapons, so why does she favour unilateralism in this sphere and argue that inflicting pain and damage on the British economy will encourage other countries to do likewise?
Luciana Berger
We were the first country to introduce a climate change Act, but other countries, such as Mexico, have followed suit, and many others are considering how to reduce their carbon emissions. I agree with the Chancellor’s comments back in 2007, when he said that investment in low carbon could go hand in hand with growth and support our economy. We have seen global trade in low carbon surpass growth in all other fields. Without domestic investment in low carbon in the UK, our national growth figures last year would have been much worse. I believe the two go hand in hand.
What should the Government do? First, they should back the cross-party amendment proposed by the Chair of the Select Committee and my hon. Friend the Member for Brent North, which would put an explicit target for decarbonising the UK energy sector by 2030 in the Energy Bill. That would give businesses the confidence and certainty they are crying out for to invest in low-carbon and renewable generation, and would signal to other nations that we were serious about meeting our climate change targets and moving to a low-carbon economy.
Secondly, the Prime Minister should get a grip on his MEPs and force them to vote in the European Parliament in accordance with the UK Government’s position. That is the only way to regain our lost credibility in the eyes of our EU neighbours. Thirdly, the UK should renew its role as an international political leader on climate change.
David Mowat
The hon. Lady refers to lack of credibility with our EU neighbours. I could accept that if our carbon emissions were higher than those of our EU neighbours, but, with the exception of France, they are significantly lower. Surely actions drive the issue, not words.
Luciana Berger
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. I referred first and foremost to the actions of Conservative MEPs in the European Parliament who have twice contradicted and been in conflict with British Government policy. There has been a reduction in our emissions, but we must ensure that we meet our ambitious emissions reduction target in the long term. We have made significant progress in the short term, but we must make significant investment in the short and medium term to ensure that we meet the long-term targets.
This month, Lord Stern, author of the world famous Stern report, said that the only thing missing in the efforts to tackle climate change “is the political will”. There are signs that that is beginning to change. In his second inaugural address, President Obama reaffirmed his commitment to tackling climate change. Even emerging economies such as China—we will discuss this in more detail in our next debate—are making progress.
We must seize this opportunity for our planet and for the jobs and growth that it will create. It is time for Minsters, especially the Prime Minister, to stop talking about showing leadership and get on and do it. I hope the Minister will take note of my suggestions, and I look forward to hearing his explanation of the vote by his party’s MEPs this week.
The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Gregory Barker)
I thank my right hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr Lilley) because I thought this might be a slightly dry debate with the usual suspects in violent agreement, but it has been much more rigorous, thoughtful and lively. The real thanks for the debate must go to my hon. Friend the Member for South Suffolk (Mr Yeo), the Chair of the Select Committee. I thought at the outset that this is a strange time in the calendar for a debate on the United Nations framework convention on climate change, because the reality of seasonality in such matters is that negotiators do not start to clear their throats and focus on COP until the second half of the year. The debate has shown that there is a great deal to discuss, and some important points have come out.
I do not share all the analysis of my hon. Friend the Member for South Suffolk, particularly of the carbon floor price, but I share his view and take on board some of the criticism from the shadow Minister about the need for a strong emissions trading scheme and a uniform price signal on carbon throughout the European Union. It would negate the need for a carbon floor price here in the UK and for a unilateral policy. We consider the impact on British industry’s competitiveness in every policy. We take that extremely seriously, and that is why the Government broke with previous policy and introduced a substantial package of measures to help energy-intensive industries to deal with the cost impact on their businesses of supporting renewables.
The hon. Member for Glasgow North West (John Robertson) made a sensible speech, and I listened carefully to his points about members of the Select Committee and GLOBE attending COP last year and before then. When I first attended as a Minister, I was struck by the lack of support, hospitality and information-sharing with parliamentarians at those important negotiations. In the past couple of years, I have tried to go out of my way to make parliamentarians feel more part of team GB and certainly to make available more of the facilities. However, we can go further, and the hon. Gentleman is right that we should co-ordinate more closely. I am happy to consider whether there is a possibility of including them in the delegation.
I am not making a commitment, because clearly there is a difference between the Executive, who speak for Her Majesty’s Government, and the House of Commons, which challenges and scrutinises the Government. We would not expect it to have the Government’s role, but the hon. Gentleman and the hon. Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner) are absolutely right that, because of the reputation of GLOBE UK and Parliament, they can bring a lot to the party. The issue does not involve partisan politics, but there may be some subtleties about the legislature and the Executive. I will look at the example that the hon. Members raised, and perhaps return to it at a meeting here or in the Department.
Perhaps the liveliest part of the debate was the speech and interventions from my right hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin and Harpenden. However, I fear that his whole thesis was to drag us down into the climate and energy politics of either/or when we are trying to develop, both here and globally, a pluralistic approach to energy. We do not want either/or—fossil fuels or renewables—but gas and wind. There will be a need for coal, but also for biomass. We want solar and hydro. We want large-scale solutions deployed, as well as distributed generation. We want industrial-scale generation and consumer generation. The 21st century calls for plurality of energy supply, sources and technology, as opposed to a monolithic, one-size, fossil-fits-all model at home and abroad. That will be good for security as well as value and climate.
Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)
I am particularly interested in plurality and retaining public support. As a political institution, Parliament can act only with public support. Does the Minister accept that, whatever avenue the Government go down that impacts on our climate change policy, public support is important? We have a disconnect growing between the people and the Government. Eventually, the Government’s policy will fail.
Gregory Barker
There is an important balance to be struck. Of course, we are here to listen to and represent our constituents, but we also have a leadership role. If ever we were reminded of the importance of not bending to public opinion in the short term, but aiming for the right long-term solution, it was this week, with the funeral of Lady Thatcher, who understood that being unpopular in the short term and not listening to the crowd can often not only be the sensible and right thing to do, but pay dividends in the long term.
On the issue of Lady Thatcher, perhaps because of the week of that extraordinary and very moving funeral, it is worth remembering that it was Mrs Thatcher, as she was then—a scientist by training and a Conservative by conviction—who more than any other world leader acted to put climate change on the international agenda. At the Royal Society, of which she was a fellow—one of the very small band of Conservative MP scientists—she said:
“For generations, we have assumed that the efforts of mankind would leave the fundamental equilibrium of the world’s systems and atmosphere stable. But it is possible that with all these enormous changes—population, agricultural, use of fossil fuels—concentrated into such a short period of time, we have unwittingly begun a massive experiment with the system of this planet itself.”
That was said in 1988, which shows extraordinary foresight.
Pursuing that line of inquiry—Lady Thatcher did not just make one speech on climate change, but several important interventions—she went to the United Nations the following year, in 1989, and crystallised her thinking. More than 20 years later, what she said then is relevant to this debate today:
“the problem of global climate change is one that affects us all and action will only be effective if it is taken at the international level.”
Lady Thatcher’s actions led, in large part, to the Rio Earth summit of 1992 and to the UNFCCC process that continues today.
The process continues with all its imperfections. There have been huge setbacks to date, not least at Copenhagen in 2009. Having participated on behalf of the Government in three COPs now and their subsidiary meetings, I am under no illusions about the difficulty of negotiating a global treaty. However, I must tell the Chamber that having returned last week from the Major Economies Forum on Energy and Climate, which meets during the year to consider action in the UNFCCC, I detect movements of the tectonic plates. I am not suggesting that we are back to where we were in 2008, when we were all expecting global cap and trade, but we are seeing significant policy shifts—or at least the consideration of policy shifts—between what is now termed the G2, or the key players, which are China and the USA. That will not come overnight. A lot more is still to be delivered, but we are seeing the signs of a recognition that they have to deal with the problem. It cannot be ducked.
Part of the reason why we are seeing politicians show, at national leadership level, a willingness to return to the subject from which President Obama and the Chinese leadership were severely scorched—from the experience of Copenhagen in 2009—is that they are driven not only by the science, but by the economic reality of the imperative of diversifying energy sources away from fossil fuels and the recognition that the low-carbon goods and services sector globally is now worth more than $3 trillion, and is growing.
As the hon. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana Berger) pointed out, here in the UK, that is a sizable factor in our growth, not only in terms of the narrow subsection of wind or subsidised renewable energy, as the low-carbon sector runs much more broadly than that and includes energy efficiency and a range of innovation of products and services. That is why, this year, in recommitting the coalition to being the greenest Government ever, our Prime Minister said that not only are we in a global race, but the countries and economies that will win the global race are those that are most efficient, and the most efficient will be those that drive after energy efficiency and renewable energy.
The Government’s clear ambition is to be a leader, not because we are on a moral mission at the expense of our national prospects, but because we recognise that it is a massive economic opportunity. That is why we think that we can seek not to disadvantage industry, but to obtain a first-mover advantage. My right hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin and Harpenden is out of step with the CBI and with a whole range of smaller businesses, which make that argument strongly to the Government.
Barry Gardiner
I wholeheartedly agree with the point that the Minister is making. Is he aware of research now being conducted that seems to suggest that countries that have legislated on climate are attracting most of the international investment in this area?
Gregory Barker
There is certainly a strong correlation between regulatory certainty and investor certainty, and lower cost of capital and the flowing of funds into those high-growth sectors. However, another canard that I have to shoot down is the idea that we live in an era of cheap fossil fuels and expensive renewables. Certainly, in the developing world, that is not true. I simply draw the attention of my right hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin and Harpenden to the fact that, between 2011 and 2014, India will spend $14.267 billion subsidising kerosene, LPG and natural gas. That is one of the largest elements in its national budget; it is largely responsible for the massive calls for structural reform in India, and it is seen as a brake on growth, because the country is subsidising not renewables, but fossil fuels. It is simply wrong to argue anything other, but nor is it an either/or choice.
Mr Lilley
The Minister is making an ineffective debating point. The Indians want their consumers to have cheap fuel at the point of purchase. That may be a misguided policy; it would not be one of the British Government’s, but they choose to subsidise the products that are already the cheapest, not those that are initially the most expensive. If wind and sun were cheaper, perhaps they would subsidise them, but the Minister cannot really pretend that wind is therefore cheaper, because they are subsidising other things.
Gregory Barker
No, but my right hon. Friend will know that last year, the wholesale cost of gas rose by 35%. The cost of renewables is consistently coming down. He will know that the cost of solar crashed in the past two years, and that in many cases, with high irradiation, such as in the developing world—
Gregory Barker
No, I am not. I am responding to my right hon. Friend’s point. The cost of fossil fuels in the developing world in the past two years has largely increased—in some cases, very substantially. The cost of renewables is coming down. That is why India has launched its national solar mission and why it is investing in wind. It is using the subsidy not simply to subsidise consumers for a product that they cannot afford, but as an investment to bring down the cost to the point that they can afford it. When the counterfactual is distributed diesel generators, often no subsidy at all is needed.
Small-scale generation is not some piffling irrelevance, as my right hon. Friend seemed to imply, but it is the reality for hundreds of millions of people in the developing world. Hundreds of millions in Africa and about 400 million in India do not have access to the grid and are not likely to get it any time soon. That is not just an economic imperative; it is a moral one as well. They are not sitting there wanting American-style fridge-freezers and huge cars; for them, a luxury is a light at night or a laptop, so that their kids can have an education or the most rudimentary internet access.
My right hon. Friend seems to think that the American economic model for shale gas is easily replicable in the rest of the world. It is not. If there is cheap gas to be had, we want it here, but it is not a binary world of black and white choices between renewables and fossil fuels.
Mr Lilley
I am overwhelmed by my right hon. Friend’s eloquence and verbosity. If he is saying that renewables are more economic than fossil fuels, that is wonderful—let us leave it to the market, and they will be adopted—but he cannot simultaneously say that we ought to be subsidising them and that they are already as cheap as or cheaper than fossil fuels.
Gregory Barker
Let me explain it one more time. Fossil fuels have been around for centuries. They have had plenty of time to develop, as I think my right hon. Friend will agree. I think that he may have worked, as I have, in the oil and gas industry before coming into politics. The fact is that continuing to supply oil and gas, LPG, petroleum and kerosene at scale to the Indian population requires a structural subsidy. We are not proposing a structural subsidy for renewables; subsidy is justifiable only in any circumstance if there is a chance of getting to a non-subsidised point. We should not subsidise any technology, whether renewable or fossil fuel, if all we are doing is pouring good money after bad. Subsidy for renewables can only be a short-term or at best a medium-term strategy.
Barry Gardiner
Perhaps a common point of agreement between the Minister, the right hon. Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr Lilley) and myself is that any subsidy should be in place only because of a market failure. It is almost impossible to justify a subsidy on that basis to fossil fuels, which have had more than enough time to establish themselves, whereas there is a failure in the renewables market. We need to get renewables to the point where they become a full-scale technology and are able to operate at only marginal cost. I presume that the Minister, the right hon. Gentleman and I would all agree that, at that point, subsidies should be withdrawn from them also.
Gregory Barker
The hon. Gentleman makes that point far better than I did. I am not in favour of subsidies. They are a short-term means to an end, and they certainly should not be in place if there is no prospect of getting rid of them in the longer term. I have tried hon. Members too much with my tirade on that.
Let me turn to the COP negotiations, particularly the UK Government’s position and our priorities in respect of getting a global deal. Before I do so, I remind the House what we agreed in Doha. The 17th COP in Durban in 2011 was another step in the development of the UNFCCC, as was the Cancun conference the year before, but it was also a significant turning point. At that point, all the countries committed to agree a new global deal by 2015 and increase efforts to reduce emissions. Last year’s conference in Doha was the next step to make progress on both those issues.
The annual conferences should be seen not as major breakthrough points, but as steps forward. Even the annual conference in 2015, where we hope to agree the new global deal, will also include ongoing implementation decisions and perhaps further steps in the period to 2020 on how the new global deal will be implemented in detail. In that regard, our objectives at the Doha conference last year were largely achieved. We agreed a high-level work plan to negotiate the new agreement by 2015, and we rationalised the negotiation process to give space to deliver the work plan and take forward work to increase the emissions reduction effort in the meantime. Hon. Members might think that that sounds like process. It is. To negotiate a new global deal with 194 countries in three years, the process must be right. It is a challenge, but it is what we are doing.
We also made progress in further building and implementing the key elements of the UNFCCC regime, including on climate finance. I must say to the hon. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree that, far from trailing, the UK has a strong reputation on climate change, and our international reputation as a leader is rising, particularly in relation to private sector finance and investment, adaptation, technology and the rules set to measure, report and verify countries’ emissions. Getting the process right and continually building elements are vital to tackling a global problem of the scale of climate change, which is why each annual conference is a step forward.
David Mowat
I am listening carefully to what the Minister is saying about the COP process. One of my thoughts is that some of the time would be better spent considering abatement, as well as deals. We talked earlier about the fact that many millions of square kilometres in Russia might become usable as a result of climate change. Should we not be thinking about that globally as well?
Gregory Barker
We absolutely need to draw on such issues. One thing that we know for certain is that there is no silver bullet for the agenda, and we cannot afford to ignore any strand. This week, I had hoped to be in Delhi for the clean energy ministerial, which considers a range of technological solutions outside the constraints of the UNFCCC negotiating process and, to my mind, is becoming an increasingly important forum for driving the technological innovation that we need and giving the agenda much more positive spin—forgive the word. People can see tangible things to invest in that are themselves a natural good. Abatement falls into the category of things that we need to do more to consider. I do not suggest for a moment that the UNFCCC is a universal panacea, nor that risks do not attach to it, but it is our best hope of getting an overarching international framework, which in turn is our best hope of driving progress at a global level.
I said that the UK is an internationally renowned leader in climate finance. In Doha, the UK demonstrated that it was on track to deliver our £1.5 billion fast-start pledge by the end of 2012, and as the hon. Member for Brent North said, we have delivered it. We also set out for our developing country partners what the UK climate finance contribution will be in the period to 2015.
However, the key thing—we are good at this globally, and we have a strong representation—is to make the point that public finance can only go so far. We cannot push British taxpayers—or, come to that, any other taxpayers—to keep increasing the amount of public contribution. Public finance, like subsidy, is there to catalyse private sector interventions. We are seeing increasing private sector interest in scaling up investments, so I think there is a realistic possibility of meeting the pledge made at Copenhagen to mobilise the $100 billion a year from developed economies into climate measures in developing economies, not principally from the public sector or the pockets of taxpayers in developed economies, but from mobilised private sector sources that see the opportunity to make returns on attractive clean energy and climate mitigation solutions. On that point, I bring my speech to a close and thank the Committee for its report.
Low-carbon Growth Links (China)
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Mr Tim Yeo (South Suffolk) (Con)
It is a great pleasure to introduce the debate under your chairmanship, Mr Betts. The Committee welcomes the opportunity to debate the report, and indeed the Government’s response.
The Committee has closely engaged with China over the past two or three years, and not only in writing the report. We invited staff from the Guangdong province development and reform commission back to the UK and Europe to discuss the design of their emissions trading pilot scheme. They visited the UK in May and I followed up the Committee’s visit to China with two further visits of my own, in October and earlier this month.
The Committee believes that China’s response to the challenge of climate change is crucial for the whole world. Having been a regular visitor to China over the past few years, I am extremely impressed and encouraged by the greater engagement it has shown over climate change and the efforts it is making to transform its economy to a low-carbon one, though we all understand that it has a long way to go. The 12th five-year plan, which is soon to be at its midpoint, contains a wide range of measures designed to accelerate the introduction of low-carbon technology.
With regard to the Committee’s key recommendations, we argued that low-carbon leadership in the UK would encourage major emitters, such as China, to move down the low-carbon pathway. We also believe that low-carbon growth in China provides new markets and business opportunities for Britain. Every assistance should be offered to the Chinese to develop their emissions trading scheme. The type of system they are choosing is rather more complex than the EU one, but they start with the benefit of fewer, and perhaps less accurate, data than we and most EU countries enjoyed at the outset of our schemes, which are reasons to be more helpful, rather than less.
The UK should offer assistance on the measurement of data and the design of a legal infrastructure for emissions trading—areas in which the UK has a lot of expertise. That is applicable to China nationally and at a provincial and city level.
It is also possible to assist with the integration of pilot emissions trading systems with broader national systems. Emissions trading will face a crisis as a result partly of the vote in the European Parliament, which was referred to in the previous debate, and partly of the collapse of the price in the EU ETS, so it is worth mentioning at this point the fact that the concept has traction around the world. Not only is China seriously piloting such schemes, but California’s state ETS started operating in January this year, and it is clear that the governor, his staff and the state are committed to its success.
For the benefit of those readers of Hansard who will not read the previous debate, I once again draw attention to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests and declare an interest in a number of energy and transport companies.
If Britain is to capitalise on China’s low-carbon ambitions, we need to maintain our own commitment to low-carbon growth, so that our companies can continue to develop expertise and remain competitive internationally. We on the Committee were encouraged by the work already being carried out by our officials in China, but we were disappointed that the intention is to cut the rather limited project funding there. The UK Government need to set high-level objectives for co-operation with China on low carbon. Decisions about the design and delivery of programmes are best made by staff on the ground with an understanding of the Chinese context. I commend the Foreign and Commonwealth Office for continuing its commitment in several Chinese cities, notably Beijing, Guangzhou, Chongqing and Shanghai. We have had contact with them all about climate change.
The Committee concluded that there is scope for better alignment of funding opportunities and joint research ventures. We hope the Government will maximise their resources by looking for opportunities to provide match funding alongside other organisations, including research organisations. It is important that the UK delivers on the promises it has already made, in particular on carbon capture and storage. British expertise is not perhaps as widely recognised as it might be and I hope that the Government will take a strategic approach to such projects.
In general terms, I am concerned that Britain risks losing out to other countries in its general efforts in China. It is noticeable that Germany has made a strong commitment of time and to visits at the highest possible level. Although there is a temporary obstacle to ministerial visits from this country, I hope that it will be lifted before long, because it is extremely important that they resume as quickly as possible.
It is noticeable how regular contact with key individuals is the route to closer relationships and greater influence in China, perhaps to a greater extent than in other countries. It is not enough to go once or twice; we need to be seen on the ground regularly. I commend the work of GLOBE International. Its engagement with the EU-UK-China agenda is admirable, and I am glad to have had the opportunity from time to time to take part.
There are more detailed aspects of our report, but I will not go into them all. We recommended that UK Trade & Investment co-ordinates a British sustainable buildings project, as a platform for engagement between UK companies and Chinese developers working on low-carbon cities. The urbanisation programme in China, which is the biggest the world has ever seen, provides opportunities on that score.
The Committee was glad that the Government response agreed with our assessment that the Chinese low-carbon growth model is central to the success of global efforts to tackle climate change and that the UK should be an active and strategic leader of climate change policy internationally, offering the chance to punch above our weight in influencing China. We were also glad to have the Government’s agreement that a successful and compatible ETS in China is key for global efforts. We welcome the Government’s support for our recommendation that the UK should help China with the design of its emissions trading systems, including the detailed aspects. We have an opportunity in China that would enable us to punch well above our weight. Expertise in the UK can be deployed usefully in a country that is addressing low-carbon issues as urgently as China.
There were areas of disagreement between the Government and the Committee over our recommendations. I shall not dwell on those in too much detail because I want to allow my colleagues the chance to take part in the debate. The Committee is particularly concerned about CCS. That technology is vital the world over, but particularly in China. Despite the fact that coal will represent a declining proportion of China’s energy mix, it will remain substantial in absolute terms, so, without CCS, it is difficult to see how progress towards the long-term emissions reductions targets can be achieved. We recommended that CCS be added to the list of UKTI high-value opportunities, and I think that that Committee would want me to reiterate that recommendation.
We also recommended a dialogue on the development of gas and highlighted the opportunity for us presented by shale gas. I hope that Britain will exploit its shale gas resources and develop its expertise, which could be shared with the Chinese in due course. There is a conscious desire in China for collaboration with us on a number of renewable technologies, including offshore wind and other marine technologies. There are great opportunities in that.
The process is not entirely one way, and we should look at the progress China is making on the introduction of smart grids. I was talking only last week to the state grid in China, the customer base of which is a small matter of 1 billion people—twice the number of people in the European Union. Some of the work that it is undertaking, which will produce greater efficiency in the use of energy through smart grids, is worthy of examination.
I hope, too, that we can consider developing common standards, whether in the building industry, the vehicle industry or other appliance industries. If there were a common standard between Britain, or preferably the EU, and China, which would cover almost a third of the world’s population and a substantial proportion of GDP, that might give businesses in the EU, and in Britain in particular, a head start, and set an example that the Americans felt the need to follow.
There is great concern in China about pollution—in particular, air quality. China looks with interest at the progress that London has made in improving air quality and wishes to share our experiences. I think that the new Chinese leadership will be extremely focused on that. One of its officials was recently quoted as saying that
“pollution is so serious, if we don’t do something about it, the public won’t agree and heaven won’t accept it”.
On the question of progress in China, emissions are obviously rising because of the growth in the economy, but the goal that it has set to reduce the carbon intensity of its economy is having an impact in slowing down the growth of emissions. In 2012, the growth was down to only 3.2%, compared with 9.3% in the previous year. Last year, the carbon intensity of the Chinese economy appeared to decline by at least 4%. The 12th five-year plan has a target to reduce carbon intensity by 17%, and during my recent visit it was interesting to find senior advisers to the Chinese Government talking openly not only about the prospect of setting an absolute target for carbon emissions by 2020, but about expecting it to be a declining target as soon as possible thereafter. I do not think that advisers would have been heard making such recommendations four or five years ago.
The pilot emissions trading system is clearly still in its infancy. During the next three years, we expect to see the pilots operating on a small scale, with the first one probably in Shenzhen. Their scope is significant; they cover about a quarter of China’s GDP across six energy-intensive industries and some of the country’s most important provinces and cities. There is potentially a big prize—not just for Britain, but for the world—if we can encourage China’s engagement in the low-carbon agenda. I am confident that the new Chinese leadership will be at least as committed to progress as its predecessors. China does not, perhaps, have the same obstacles to land use planning decisions that occur in democracies, particularly in crowded countries such as the UK. The Chinese decide to do something and can get on and do it in a way that we might sometimes envy. The energy and transport infrastructure roll-out in China is sometimes breathtaking in its scope and speed, and we might have some lessons to learn there.
In the interests of allowing my colleagues to take part in the debate, I shall finish by commending the report to the House.
Mr Clive Betts (in the Chair)
Order. The debate can go on until 5.6 pm. I will call the Front-Bench spokespeople at 4.46 pm, and I think that three other hon. Members want to speak, so that gives them about seven minutes each if they split the time.
Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)
I am delighted to speak on this important matter under your chairmanship, Mr Betts, and I heartily endorse all that the Chair of the Select Committee, the hon. Member for South Suffolk (Mr Yeo), has said, particularly about the very positive engagement between our Foreign and Commonwealth Office and China.
I address my remarks to the Minister in particular, as this is an area in which the Government need to do more. The Government now have a strong link and positive engagement with India, and they need to step up to the mark in the same way in China, reinforcing their commitment there. That would prove tremendously positive, not just for climate change and climate change negotiations, but for our own productive economy, including our exports.
At the GLOBE summit of legislators that took place a month before COP 15 in Copenhagen, Chairman Wang Guangtao and Congressman Ed Markey put their heads together. That was an extraordinary engagement, in that legislators from the two countries that have been seen, in some respects, as the key blockers to an international agreement came together and agreed a set of legislative principles upon which climate negotiations could advance. It is really in my capacity as chairman of the board of GLOBE International that I want to cast my perspective on the Select Committee report, and I should declare my entry in that regard in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests, even though it is a non-pecuniary interest.
The International Energy Agency estimates that China will account for half the growth in energy-related emissions to 2030. For almost a decade, that is the sort of fact that has been used to vilify China, painting it as the villain of the piece, and politicians have sometimes used it as an excuse for inaction. Indeed, the fact that China produces so many emissions is one of the most trenchant arguments used, as we heard earlier, in the US Senate for taking no action on climate change. The Chinese economy will, of course, remain one of the most powerful engines of climate change for the next two decades, but at the same time the scale of its own ambition for decarbonisation will, I think, be a turning point in global efforts to halt the pace of climate change. China’s approach, although much of it based on domestic political reasons, because of the problems with pollution in its own cities, is driving China to take really positive steps to increase not the decarbonisation but the carbon productivity of its economy, at the same time as making great advances on renewables.
The International Energy Agency’s “World Energy Outlook 2012” estimates that by 2035 China will have increased its windpower capacity to 330 GW. That is 40% greater than the global wind capacity in 2011, which gives some sense of the scale at which China is moving. I have mentioned Chairman Wang Guangtao. He became the first president of GLOBE China when it was formed, but the relationship with China goes much deeper than that. The relationship is also with Minister Xie Zhenhua, who has, despite the recent changes in China, been reconfirmed, I am pleased to say, in his position as Minister for the next period—there was a question mark over what position he would end up with. The engagement that international legislators have been able to have with the Minister, and with Su Wei, who is one of the central figures under the Minister as the key negotiator and formulator of China’s policy in this area, has been extraordinary.
In October 2011, Minister Xie came to London as part of a delegation hosted by GLOBE. He met senior political figures from all three major UK parties—including Cabinet Office Ministers, the then Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change and the Leader of the Opposition—as well as senior Members of the European Parliament, and it was agreed that a regular second track to negotiations should be established.
In Venice in September 2012, that second track took off when the Chinese delegation—led by Su Wei, the director general of the Department of Climate Change in the National Development and Reform Commission—agreed the approach now being carried forward by China and GLOBE in Europe. As we speak, the unlikely team of Lord Prescott and Lord Deben is in China with a delegation of legislators from France and other parts of Europe to negotiate with the Chinese on an initiative about how the UK and China can work together to reduce carbon emissions through product standards.
My time is at an end, so I will sit down, although I could say much more on this subject. I believe that engagement with China is critical for the Government and the future of the negotiations.
Mr Peter Lilley (Hitchin and Harpenden) (Con)
Criminologists have observed that the victims of confidence tricksters are often willing—indeed, eager—to believe the story to which they fall victim, and the more absurd, fantastic or fabulous the story, the more willing they are to believe it. The report is an example of a confidence trick that has been willingly absorbed by the Government and members of the Committee. It contains all the characteristics necessary for the sort of fairy tale in which one wants to believe: it has a faraway country, mysterious powers that we attribute to ourselves, and pots of gold—green gold—at the end of the rainbow.
The first delusion affirmed by the report is the delusion of power. It is a strange hangover from liberal imperialism that the British intellectual classes believe that they can still dominate the world—that the world is anxious to hear from them, and will jump to attention at their every word and follow their every command. Take the opening words of the report:
“China is central to global efforts to tackle climate change”—
true, but it continues, and I ask Members to savour these words—
“and should be at the heart of HMG’s climate change mitigation strategy.”
What imperialist arrogance and what delusions of grandeur that the United Kingdom, a nation of 65 million people off the coast of Europe, could somehow direct, guide or in any substantive way influence the policies of the largest nation in the world, with 1.3 billion people, on the other side of the globe.
How are we to achieve that remarkable feat? The summary refers to
“our leadership role in China”.
Members should also savour those words. I read about the change of leadership in China last year, but I did not realise that that involved the replacement of Xi Jin Ping by “Greg Bar Ker” and “Ed Da Vey”—they apparently now have a leadership role in China to which the Chinese are now anxious to respond. The report states that, sadly, our
“leadership role in China is being undermined by our ‘image’…The UK’s image is also tarnished by the reputation of being ‘all talk and no action’.”
I wish it were all talk and no action in this country. When people who do not like windmills—I quite like them—look across our countryside and find that they blight the horizon, they wish there was more talk and less action. When people pay their household bills, they wish there was more talk and less action. Abroad, however, the word has apparently got out that we do not really mean what we say. I do not know how that has happened, but it will apparently be made worse if we do not inflict more problems on ourselves, because the report states:
“Slowing the pace of decarbonisation at home could undermine…the credibility of UK leadership on climate change.”
The second delusion is about China’s decarbonisation policy. The British intelligentsia has always been capable of convincing itself that China is a paragon of whatever is the current fashionable virtue. When I was at Cambridge, Professor Joan Robinson used to dress in a Mao suit and teach us that China had shown us a new economic model that we could all follow. Now it is doing the same on climate change. The report states:
“China has set out some of the most ambitious decarbonisation plans in the world.”
Yet, it also states that,
“half the growth in energy-related emissions from now until 2030 will come from China.”
Half that growth will come from the country that is pursuing the most ambitious decarbonisation policy in the world, and by 2030
“China could account for half of the world’s emissions.”
I submit that those two views are incompatible. Either China is pursuing the most ambitious decarbonisation policy in the world, in which case one assumes that it will decarbonise—or at least match our skills in reducing, or preventing the growth in, carbon emissions—or it will not.
Why is that rosy view of China’s emissions policies peddled? The British public have to be convinced that China’s emissions are under control. The report admits:
“The UK’s emissions reduction efforts are negligible compared with emissions increases elsewhere.”
In 2011, the increase in emissions from China exceeded the UK’s total emissions by 200 million tonnes. The device used in the report to convince us all that the Chinese are pursuing an ambitious decarbonisation policy is, first, to glide from talking about reducing emissions to talking about reducing emissions growth, which is not quite the same thing, and, secondly, to equate reduction in carbon intensity with cutting carbon emissions, which is not the same thing at all.
Like any sensible country, China of course wants more economic output from every tonne of fuel or joule of energy used. It enjoyed steady reductions in carbon intensity until the beginning of this century—not that it had any particular plan for CO2 reductions; it just used energy more efficiently each year—but for some reason that stopped early in this century, and it now has plans to return to the same path of increasing energy efficiency each year. Despite such increasing energy efficiency, however, it will experience major rises in energy use and carbon emissions.
The third delusion is the prospect of green jobs in the UK resulting from exports to China. That prospect depends on the UK inflicting on itself severe and ambitious measures to decarbonise the UK economy. The report states:
“Slowing the pace of decarbonisation at home could undermine our low-carbon businesses and the export opportunities for this sector”.
What are the opportunities? The report states that the
“inquiry identified three sectors where…the UK has an established lead”.
What are they? The first is the oil and gas sector. It is true that we have expertise in oil and gas, but I would not have thought of it as a typical green sector. Indeed, the report states that,
“British expertise could help to ensure that”
Chinese resources are used
“in the most sustainable way possible. The UK’s own emissions profile has been improved by the ‘switch to gas’ and…a similar switch could be achieved in China, reducing emissions between 50% and 70%. Significant potential for gas development lies in the exploitation of unconventional resources.”
The report mentions shale gas in China, but not much encouragement has been given to that in this country, where we have had an 18-month moratorium and no drilling so far. None the less, the Committee’s report, which the Government have endorsed, believes:
“UK skills in the emerging market for unconventional ‘shale’ gas could help China to diversify its energy mix away from coal.”
Anything further from reality than the suggestion that we, who have held back shale gas development in this country and who—as we are told by the Committee, which has carried out an investigation—lack the expertise and will take a long time to develop our own resources, if they are there, can nevertheless help the Chinese to do so and then count that as a green export, would seem to me to be pretty bizarre.
The second sector is low-carbon buildings, primarily their design. That is fair enough. Let us send a few designers and architects over there and get the Chinese to pay their fees, but it will not revolutionise the British economy.
Interestingly, the third sector is carbon capture and storage. We are actually paying the Chinese to help them to develop the technology, and the report says that they already have a plant up and running. The idea that somehow the result is going to be us exporting carbon capture and storage technology to them when we are helping them develop a technology in which they are already further ahead than we are is bizarre.
Barry Gardiner
Am I right in thinking that the right hon. Gentleman genuinely believes that the expertise that this country has built up both from the North sea oilfields and in drilling in that technology is not something that we can export to China in helping them to develop shale gas?
Mr Lilley
What is wrong with it is that such expertise has nothing to do with green exports. It is a delusion, and a deliberate delusion, to portray exports of expertise in oil and gas development as a green export. If the hon. Gentleman cannot see that, it takes my breath away.
Have we got the expertise in shale gas? We have not developed any shale gas in this country, onshore or offshore. So if we have expertise, it comes from operating in other countries and we may be able to transfer that to China, but again, it would not be a green export—although I can see that the Minister is about to tell me otherwise.
The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Gregory Barker)
My right hon. Friend must take great credit for the fact that he presided over one of the largest single factors in Britain’s being able to meet its decarbonising targets, because he was in the Government during the dash for gas, and I would say that the single biggest factor that we could hope for in shifting China from its current carbon intensity is to shift it off coal and on to more gas. That would have a transformational impact in the way that the Government of which he was such an important part did here in the UK in the ’90s—[Interruption.] And it is a green export.
Mr Lilley
In following the previous Chairman’s admonition to us to keep interventions short, I have cut short the Minister’s intervention. The suggestion that we need to pursue at home policies to decarbonise our industry, in order to persuade the Chinese to use our expertise in oil and gas, defies all logic and I find it completely breathtaking. The argument seems to be that if we are to get these green jobs—the Minister has now reclassified exporting oil and gas expertise as a green job—we have to discourage the use of oil and gas at home. The mind boggles. The sheer, passionate desire of the Minister and, I am afraid, of some members of the Committee, not to face up to reality but to come up with every kind of spurious defence for a policy that simply does not hold water baffles me.
The truth is that we are, by imposing on our business high energy costs in the UK, driving business abroad, some of it to China. By subsidising the investment in solar panels and wind turbines, we are creating opportunities for China to export to the UK and we are probably creating green jobs in China. But let us not pretend that we are creating any green jobs for ourselves, or any opportunities to export to China, that would not exist if we simply abandoned all our climate change commitments in this country.
Mr Clive Betts (in the Chair)
Do the Front-Bench speakers think that eight minutes is sufficient time for their winding-up speeches? [Interruption.] Okay. Dr Whitehead has four minutes.
Dr Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab)
I do not want to detain hon. Members for long; indeed, I cannot, because I have only four minutes. Just as an aside, I draw hon. Members’ attention to an Asterix comic of a long time ago, entitled “La Zizanie”, which was about a person who went into Asterix’s camp and annoyed everyone so much, setting people against each other, that they lost track of what it was they were trying to talk about. I merely want to leave that on the table.
The Select Committee report is not about whether Britain has an imperialistic relationship with China and wishes to influence the whole of Chinese development. It is a modest effort to look at how the UK’s climate change and energy considerations might be attached to relations with the largest emitter of CO2 in the world. I am talking about a country that is developing rapidly economically, and changing equally rapidly its position as regards its stance on climate change. The report tried to consider how those two things might be matched. Unless we do not believe that there is any merit whatever in having any sort of international dialogue with anybody, we should take that Select Committee view at face value and welcome it for what it is.
The report is not a view that all is rosy in the world of China, but a timely reminder that China is changing its view on climate change. A number of things are happening in China that underline that view. Indeed, just yesterday, the Minister in charge of climate policies, Xie Zhenhua, indicated that the aim for the Chinese economy now is a reduction in the 2011 levels of carbon intensity by 40% to 45% by 2020. It also wants to boost its non-fossil fuel use to 15% of energy consumption by 2020. He talked about the beginning of the carbon market in Shenzhen in June and then later in the year in Shanghai. Significantly, he said that instruments will be included in the Shanghai carbon trading market that will take credits off the market when supplies are too high and prices are too low. He said that China would learn from the difficulties that are taking place in Europe and that it was committed to the development of a carbon trading market. In the 11th five-year plan, China had attempted to reach some targets. Among other things, it closed down factories for a number of weeks towards the end of the five-year period for each region to reach its target.
China understands the situation now and has developed its way of doing things enormously, so that its measures on carbon trading arrangements begin to coincide with other countries around the world. Therefore, there could be international co-operation on these matters, built on the basis of everyone following similar practices. We should not dismiss that on the grounds that the UK has a population of 65 million or 70 million and that China has a population of many billions, thus making us insignificant. Actually, we have a role to play in this matter and in a dialogue with China, along with other countries in the EU and across the world. That takes us back to that multilateral discussion that we were concerned about in the previous debate. This is not about Britain being imperialistic and trying to tell China what to do; it is a question of the UK’s contribution to a country that appears to be changing many of its assumptions about its own growth and how it goes forward.
Whatever we may think about elements of the political and economic situation in China and how they are dealt with, it is worth while collaborating with China to a far greater extent for the greater good, not only of China or this country but of the wider world. If the Committee’s report has been able to emphasise and underpin that process, it has achieved a good purpose. However, hon. Members should not read into the report something that is not there. It is an honest attempt to consider how UK advances and UK positions may be aligned more closely with other countries and with China in particular. China is indeed changing its stance on climate change—it is not a delusion to say that—and for its own purposes, as well as for international purposes, beginning to make substantial changes in how it goes about its economic activity, and it is important that we do likewise—
Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op)
This afternoon’s debate has been very lively and informative. Once again, I commend the hon. Member for South Suffolk (Mr Yeo), the Chairman of the Select Committee, for how he introduced the debate, and I thank all the members of the Committee for the work that they have done in producing another excellent report.
As many hon. Members have noted in their contributions, China is key to the fight against climate change. China’s carbon emissions have risen rapidly during the past decade; they are up by more than 171% since 2000, growing to be 48% larger than the USA’s output of carbon emissions. As China is now responsible for 29% of the world’s carbon emissions and, on current trajectories, is predicted to become responsible for 50% of global emissions by 2030, it is clear that no effort to tackle climate change will be successful without its engagement. Therefore, as the Chairman of the Committee alluded to, it is welcome that China’s latest five-year plan is the greenest yet.
My hon. Friends the Members for Brent North (Barry Gardiner) and for Southampton, Test (Dr Whitehead) gave a number of examples that showed the investment and support that China is extending to its wind power sector, as well as its general commitment to increase renewable generation, which is happening alongside plans to draft a new climate law and to trial a carbon trading scheme.
The Committee’s report highlights the huge opportunities that this Chinese low-carbon transition could provide for British business. According to the latest report from the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills on this sector, “Low Carbon and Environmental Goods and Services”, UK exports to China are currently worth £795 million, which makes China by far our largest export market in this sector; it can be compared with our next largest export market in the sector, Hong Kong, which is currently worth £595 million.
I do not know whether the Minister has had an opportunity to read the Committee’s report in full. It argues that there is a huge opportunity to increase trade links, but says that that opportunity could be missed because of the Government’s current inaction. One of the major criticisms that the report made was that a lack of progress on the low-carbon agenda here at home was damaging our reputation abroad. The exact phrase that the Chairman of the Committee used at the time of the report’s publication was:
“The UK’s image is unfortunately in danger of becoming tarnished by a reputation of being more talk than action when it comes to climate change.”
We know from independent analysis by Bloomberg New Energy Finance that investment in renewable energy has fallen by half since this Government came to power, and figures published in November 2012 by Ernst and Young on attractiveness for investment in renewable energy showed that the UK has fallen to sixth place, slipping below France, which, as has been pointed out in the two debates this afternoon, is a country that generates nearly 80% of its electricity from nuclear.
In the earlier debate, I spoke about the incredible frustration that is felt about the fact that the Government are refusing to include an explicit commitment in the Energy Bill to decarbonise our power sector by 2030 that would provide businesses with the certainty and confidence in the Government’s green agenda that they are crying out for. That reluctance to commit resources and support at home is, as the report identifies, damaging our reputation abroad. The report notes:
“The UK’s ability to influence policy in China and to compete for business in low-carbon development depends on the reputation of the UK as a credible leader… However, the UK has not been as effective as other countries at showing China what the UK has to offer.”
So, while it is welcome to note in the Government’s response to the Committee’s report that the UK’s presence in China has increased, those efforts will be undermined if the Government do not rapidly improve their performance at home.
The report also raised concerns that the UK Trade & Investment team’s efforts on the ground in China could be better targeted. The Committee was not convinced that the UKTI arm of BIS is currently focusing on the right areas to deliver high-value opportunities for British business. The report’s summary says:
“There are too many projects, focusing on too many different areas, rather than a coordinated effort to achieve key objectives.”
The report says that the UK Government should instead focus on a smaller number of “strategic interventions” and that
“Projects should be tailored to appeal to Chinese priorities and to build on UK strengths. For policy, this means a focus on…carbon pricing and accounting, where the UK has experience to offer.”
The Committee calls on the Government to undertake a systematic assessment of the sectors where the UK could have such an advantage. One of the ways that the report suggests the Government’s focus could be improved is to
“adopt a clearer set of high-level objectives”—
high-level cross-Whitehall objectives and actions—
“with regard to low-carbon cooperation with China”.
That was recommendation 9 of the report. On that, the Government said:
“We agree with the committee that strategic coordination across Whitehall is important”,
but then they go on to reject the Committee’s recommendation that a formal cross-departmental Committee should be set up to develop this strategy. The impression that I took from that was that, in effect, nothing will change. Will the Minster tell us in detail what action has been taken since the Committee’s report to develop cross-Whitehall objectives for low-carbon co-operation with China?
I will draw my remarks to a close. The Committee’s report underlines the key strategic importance of China in efforts to reduce global carbon emissions. It reminds us of the importance of China as Britain’s largest overseas market for low-carbon goods and services, and it highlights the numerous opportunities that China’s low-carbon transition presents for the UK to develop these links further. However, the report warns that, as a result of the Government’s lack of progress in securing investment in this country and in progressing towards our carbon reduction commitments, these opportunities may slip away from us. The Committee recommends that to prevent that from happening the Government’s work in China needs to improve its strategic focus, as well as shifting its attention to areas where Britain has experience to offer, such as carbon capture and storage and carbon pricing and accounting. The report makes sensible and practical suggestions that I hope the Government will act on, and I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response to the debate.
The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Gregory Barker)
This has been a much shorter debate than the previous one. Nevertheless, it has been extremely useful and I thank my hon. Friend the Member for South Suffolk (Mr Yeo) and the rest of the Energy and Climate Change Committee for producing this important report, following the Committee’s inquiry on co-operation with China on low-carbon development.
I welcome the report, and this debate, like the earlier one, has been enlivened and made much more dynamic by the challenging interventions of my right hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr Lilley). He began with rather a theatrical flourish, almost using pantomime language, but I am afraid that his attack slightly faltered and became less Dandini and rather more Wishy Washy as he progressed, because the fact of the matter is that the UK, as the hon. Member for Southampton, Test (Dr Whitehead) suggested, is not seeking to make some bold post-imperial or neo-imperial play in China. We have a modest role to play in China, but there is a role for us and we can leverage our influence to some effect. Given the extraordinary transformations that are going on in China, even a modest impact from our modest interventions can have a profound effect and, as a result, mitigate the net amounts of carbon being produced.
Fundamentally, the real drive behind China’s emissions growth is urbanisation, which is continuing apace. It will reach a peak, however, and there will inevitably be emissions growth while that extraordinary—indeed, unprecedented—urbanisation happens. However, the key point is that China can put in place the policies that will enable its emissions to peak and fall, and our technical policy co-operation, however modest, is playing a part, even if it is small, in helping that process in areas such as emissions trading, gas market regulation, low-carbon product policy standards and so on.
I am constantly reminded by colleagues in this place, quite rightly, that the UK accounts for a tiny proportion of global emissions. It is right that we remember that, but we can, by our example, play an important role, and by sharing our expertise and skill sets—particularly the technical expertise of the terrific, cutting-edge British companies—we can make a modest impact on that important country.
We can help build, as the report makes clear, a greater share for the UK of the market for low-carbon goods and services in China, which is the second biggest UK market for those things and getting closer to a value of £1 billion a year. That involves not only services. I am reminded that among the successful contracts won by UK firms is one for the David Brown company, a distinguished engineering company, which has won a contract for the design and production of wind turbine gear boxes and marine tidal devices. This is not just about a small suite of service companies. Real high-tech manufacturing and engineering jobs increasingly depend on that important market.
I want to mention the low-carbon challenge, the UK’s action to address the challenge and the future of UK co-operation on low carbon. The low-carbon challenge, as we heard in the earlier debate, is a significant challenge to deliver an ambitious 2015 global agreement and additional emissions reductions before 2020. Achieving that is critical to meeting the goal of limiting global temperature increase and keeping below 2° C, and the UK is playing its part in that. Our strategy to achieve this includes working across Whitehall and through our global network of climate and energy attachés to help to encourage greater ambition, and collaborating and sharing our experience to encourage low-carbon development.
I get positive feedback when I engage with members of the Chinese Government, as I did last week in Washington, when I had a good conversation with some of those people, who appreciate the role that we play. As the Committee’s report observed, China is central to global efforts to tackle climate change. The challenge is huge. We believe that, working with our Chinese colleagues, we can accelerate both our own and their transition to a low-carbon growth pattern, however modestly.
I draw attention to our shared interests in energy, including security of supply, energy pricing and energy efficiency, as well as development of low-carbon energy technologies. We have a bilateral energy dialogue, supported by a memorandum of understanding between DECC and China’s national energy administration. As the Committee has flagged up—I am afraid that I disagree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin and Harpenden—gas exploitation is an important element to consider and is likely to be discussed at the next energy dialogue, which we hope will take place later this year.
Our embassy is working closely with the Chinese national energy administration on gas pricing and regulations, including funding a new project to identify necessary policies and regulations to enable timely yet responsible development of shale gas in China.
The Committee, like hon. Members in the debate, recognises the importance of carbon capture and storage as a technology that is critical to meeting our climate change goals, particularly in the longer term. Although the technology faces significant challenges in China around cost and energy penalties, there are encouraging signs that China may be taking a more proactive stance. For example, the Ministry of Science and Technology has recently issued its 12th five-year plan, which lays out its priorities for research, development and demonstration of CCS use and storage. The UK will continue to share its experience with China and to use our influential climate financing to advance that agenda, given how critical it is for the delivery of our climate change objectives.
The International Climate Fund is giving £35 million to support an Asian Development Bank programme, developing CCS in countries including China. In addition, Research Councils UK has put £3 million of co-funding into joint CCS research, and a Foreign and Commonwealth Office-funded study stimulating interest in taking forward CCS in the Guangdong region may result in new offshore demonstration programmes. We will not fund those programmes or projects, but we must not undervalue the long-term commercial benefit of being associated with their early development. That is a sensible use of taxpayers’ seedcorn in a global industry that could, in a very few years, be worth billions of pounds and where the UK will be seen to have a leadership role.
We appreciate that there is a lot more that we can do. I take on board the Committee’s urging a more coherent approach across Whitehall, as the hon. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana Berger) also said. I confirm that a review is under way, looking at how we can do that more effectively. We expect that review to finish in the summer.
Mr Yeo
With the leave of the House, I thank all my colleagues for contributing so constructively to this brief but important debate. There were moments when I wondered whether my right hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr Lilley) had been reading the Committee’s report. I do not want to suggest—
Mr Yeo
I will check Hansard in detail. My right hon. Friend also said that, at Cambridge university in the 1960s, China was held up as a model that Britain should follow. I also attended Cambridge university in the 1960s, but I do not recall anyone at the university suggesting that at any time.
I deeply regret my right hon. Friend’s low opinion of the expertise of British business. He obviously assumes—I am sad to hear this from a former Trade and Industry Secretary—that German, French and Italian business is so superior to British business that it is not worth our making any effort at all to try to capture a tiny segment of the business in the largest and one of the most rapidly growing markets in the world. I deplore that pessimism and do not share it, and I am delighted that the rest of the Committee actually visited China. I would be interested to know when my right hon. Friend last went there, because if he had visited in the past year or two he would have seen a picture very different from that which he painted.
I am grateful to everyone for taking part in the debate and I am sure we will return to the subject. We should vigorously pursue opportunities for sharing our expertise, including in the important area of emissions trading, where we are among the leaders in the world. I welcome the support for that aim from those on both Front Benches.
Question put and agreed to.
Written Ministerial Statements
Land Registry
The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Michael Fallon)
I can announce that today I have appointed Ed Lester as the Land Registry chief executive. His appointment concludes a three-month open and transparent competition, overseen by the Civil Service Commission.
From day one he will be on payroll and his salary will be £135,000. He will also be eligible for a performance-related award package of up to 20% of base salary. This would be awarded for excellent performance against a clear set of specific objectives aligned with delivering Land Registry’s strategy.
Ed Lester’s previous role was chief executive of Student Loans Company where he led the organisation through a period of major transformation and where it became an early model of the Government’s “digital by default” programme.
This experience will be invaluable to the Land Registry as it moves into the implementation phase of its own transformation to become an exemplar of a highly efficient, digital and data-centric organisation. This includes digitising its core registration processes and developing a more strategic approach to data to support wider economic growth.
UK Convergence Programme (2012-13)
(11 years ago)
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The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Greg Clark)
Section 5 of the European Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 requires the Government to report to Parliament for its approval an assessment of the UK’s medium-term economic and budgetary position. This assessment, which has been prepared annually since 1994, currently comprises the Budget report and the Office for Budget Responsibility’s (OBR’s) economic and fiscal outlook.
This then forms the basis of the UK’s convergence programme, which is therefore based entirely on information already presented to Parliament. The UK is obliged to submit a convergence programme annually to the European Commission under article 121 of the treaty on the functioning of the European Union.
Article 121, along with article 126, is the legal basis for the stability and growth pact, which is the co-ordination mechanism for EU fiscal policies and requires member states to avoid excessive Government deficits. Although the UK is bound by the stability and growth pact, by virtue of its protocol to the treaty opting out of the euro, it is only required to “endeavour to avoid” excessive deficits. Unlike the euro area member states, the UK is not subject to sanctions at any stage of the European semester process.
Subject to the progress of Parliamentary business, debates will be held on 22 April for the House of Commons and 25 April for the House of Lords in order for both Houses to approve this assessment before the convergence programme is submitted to the Commission. While the convergence programme itself is not subject to parliamentary approval or amendment, I will deposit advanced copies of the document on 19 April that will be made available to Members through the Vote Office and Printed Paper Office.
The Budget report and the Office for Budget Responsibility’s economic and fiscal outlook were laid in Parliament on 20 March 2013. All of the information the convergence programme will contain has therefore already been published and made available to Members.
The UK’s convergence programme will be published in late April and will be available electronically via HM Treasury’s website after publication. It will be submitted to the EU by 30 April as required by the European Commission.
Sheep Industry (Severe Weather)
(11 years ago)
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The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr David Heath)
I am today announcing details of additional support for those sheep farmers in England who have suffered devastating losses as a result of the severe weather last month.
Up to £250,000 will be available to reimburse farmers for the very specific problem of removing animals that have died on-farm through asphyxiation, starvation or hypothermia as a direct result of the March snowfall. This level of funding reflects the latest information on stock losses identified by the National Farmers Union. We will now be working with the NFU, the National Fallen Stock Company and other industry representatives to finalise arrangements for funding and to ensure that it is well targeted.
This funding will build on the programme of support which we have already put in place to help affected farmers. DEFRA has permitted the burial or burning of livestock on site if the conditions are too difficult to get carcases to a collection vehicle. We have relaxed the rules on drivers’ hours to allow extra time for essential deliveries of animal feed. Natural England has temporarily lifted some of the land management requirements that normally apply to environmental stewardship agreements, so that farmers and growers have more flexibility to deal with the impact of this extreme and unseasonable weather.
DEFRA has worked closely with the National Fallen Stock Company to encourage collectors to offer discounted rates for removing more than 10 sheep at a time. Farmers who have suffered heavy losses will be reimbursed in line with these discounted rates for the sheep they have paid to remove.
We also need to consider the longer term. In May, the Secretary of State will host a meeting of industry representatives, farming charities and banks to highlight the financial impact this exceptional weather is having on farm businesses and to see what more can be done to support farmers who are struggling financially.
As I saw on my recent visit to Cumbria and listening to those involved, the loss of sheep during some of the worst snow in living memory has taken a terrible emotional and financial toll on those farmers affected, which is why I am happy to announce this additional measure today. I am grateful to all those who have offered and provided assistance to them at a very difficult time. I call upon the public and food businesses to help our farmers by buying British lamb.
Consular Strategy 2013-16
(11 years ago)
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The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr William Hague)
I have today launched a new consular strategy for 2013 to 2016 entitled “Consular Excellence”. This strategy will deliver better service for British people over the next three years.
Millions of British people travel abroad every year. Most have a journey free from trouble and do not need consular services. However sometimes things go wrong and British nationals can be victims of serious crime, require hospitalisation or be caught up in a major crisis. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) has staff in 146 cities around the world able and ready to provide assistance when necessary, often in tragic circumstances. The FCO is committed to doing its utmost to assist British nationals in serious difficulties abroad.
I am proud of the great work the FCO’s consular service does but it can be better; under this new strategy the FCO aims to have the best consular service in the world by 2016. The FCO will build on significant improvements made in the last six years, including greater investment in staff, better crisis response, building regional structures and the start of transferring passport work. By 2016, the FCO will have a modern, efficient service supporting British nationals overseas. We will do more to help those who need it most; those who are most at risk because of who they are, where they are or what has happened to them. We will deliver more services through expert partners, and where it is reasonable, ask people to help themselves. The FCO will also introduce a modern and streamlined notarial and documentary service. All these changes will help us respond better to changing needs and react faster to crisis situations.
The FCO is also responding to British nationals needs to be best informed about crisis and security situations when overseas. We are updating its systems to offer a wide array of ways to stay in touch on these issues, including email updates of the FCO’s country-specific travel advice or by following FCO on social media. Around 125 of our overseas posts have Facebook pages and over 100 posts have Twitter accounts that are used to communicate changes to travel advice. Not only will the public be able to access FCO travel advice online at any time but those who want to will be alerted when there are major updates. More specifically, the strategy will see:
Improvements to our services, so that we achieve consistently excellent standards, with our efforts focused more on helping the people who need it the most, and doing less where we can deliver a service differently or it is reasonable to ask people to help themselves.
Improvements to the customer experience, giving British nationals greater choice in how they access our services and how they can reach us. As a result, four contact centres will be created, offering a streamlined route to consular services.
Digital transformation, with more services available online and more use of technology to help us deliver services.
Engagement with customers and partners, improving our processes for gathering feedback and for carrying out consultations with special interest groups and British nationals.
Support for our networks and development of our people, helping to maintain and build greater professionalism amongst our staff and ensure that we have resilient structures in place to enable proper service delivery.
Improvements to our crisis response, embedding the major changes to our processes since the Arab spring, continuing regular exercising of our posts overseas and increasing engagement with other interested parties. In effect, the FCO is moving from a system where British nationals are encouraged to register when they travel in case there is a crisis, to one where we are using a number of channels to give British nationals the latest information and advice on what they should do if they need our help in a crisis. This faster and more practical system supersedes the locate system, which had been used by less than 1% of British nationals overseas, which did not offer what FCO needs to help support British nationals in a crisis. Those who have already registered with the FCO on locate will be contacted directly to make sure they are aware of how to stay informed and also how to communicate with FCO if they need help.
Transferring overseas passport production to the Identity and Passport Service in the UK, establishing a more consistent, secure, efficient and cost-effective service.
I am committed to ensuring FCO has the best crisis IT system in the world. The FCO will also continue to encourage the British public to take sensible precautions, read FCO travel advice and take responsibility for their own safety first, particularly if they are travelling to or living in high-risk locations.
The new consular strategy is available on GOV.UK at:
www.gov.uk/government/publications/consular-strategy in accordance with Government digital by default principles. I have placed a copy of the strategy in the Libraries of both Houses.
General Affairs, Foreign Affairs, and Defence Foreign Affairs Councils
(11 years ago)
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The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington)
My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs will attend the Foreign Affairs Council (FAC) and I will attend the General Affairs Council (GAC) on 22 April. My right hon. Friend the Minister for International Security Strategy will attend the Defence Foreign Affairs Council and the European Defence Agency steering board on 22 and 23 April. These meetings will be held in Luxembourg. The General Affairs Council will be chaired by the Irish presidency, and the Foreign Affairs Council and Defence Foreign Affairs Council will be chaired by the High Representative of the European Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, Baroness Ashton of Upholland.
General Affairs Council
The GAC will focus on enlargement, preparation of the May European Council and EU fundamental values, specifically democracy and the rule of law. The Irish presidency will update the Council on the multiannual financial framework: no discussion of this is expected.
Enlargement reports for Serbia, Kosovo and Macedonia
There will be discussion of Serbia, Kosovo and Macedonia, on the basis of reports from the European external action service and European Commission, released ahead of the GAC, on those countries’ progress on the issues set out in the December GAC conclusions. On Serbia and Kosovo the focus will be on latest developments in the EU-facilitated dialogue between the Prime Ministers of Serbia and Kosovo: the UK welcomes the leadership of Baroness Ashton and is keen to see further improvement in the relations between the two sides. As for Macedonia, the focus will be on that country’s reform efforts, good neighbourly relations, and progress on resolving the name dispute with Greece. I expect any conclusions on the reports to be largely procedural, with more detailed discussion at the June GAC.
May European Council
The 22 May European Council will discuss the energy aspects of the single market; discuss tax policy focusing on improving tax collection and tackling tax evasion and fraud; will take stock of the deepening of economic and monetary union (EMU); and will consider foreign policy issues. I will take this opportunity to highlight the importance of making further progress on the single market and the need to improve tax policy and transparency in support of the priorities for the G8 summit in June.
EU fundamental rights
Denmark, the Netherlands, Finland and Germany jointly sent a letter to President Barroso on 6 March 2013, emphasising the importance of the rule of law, human rights and democracy; the fundamental values of the Union. The letter called for an EU mechanism to protect these fundamental values, and suggested that the European Commission should play a greater role in this area. At the request of the signatories this issue will be discussed at the GAC. I will underline the importance of safeguarding the rule of law, human rights and democracy within the Union. I will also acknowledge the link between effective justice systems and economic growth, as identified in the letter. I will highlight the important role already played by the Council of Europe in relation to fundamental values and encourage the Council to bear this valuable contribution in mind. The letter did not go into detail on how any EU mechanism would work, therefore I will not be commenting on the specifics of any proposal at this stage. The UK remains keen to see that any future mechanism respects areas of member state competence.
Foreign Affairs Council
Energy
Ministers will discuss EU external relations on energy and the southern corridor pipeline. We welcome this discussion and support the development of a southern corridor, bringing Caspian gas to Europe via Turkey. The increasingly interconnected nature of the EU gas market means there will be indirect benefits to the UK of additional gas supplies to Europe, and a more stable and diverse European gas market.
Serbia and Kosovo
Baroness Ashton is likely to update Ministers on progress on the EU-facilitated Serbia and Kosovo dialogue. The UK welcomes the leadership of Baroness Ashton on this and is keen to see further improvement in the relations between the two sides. However we are clear that we must see progress on all of the Kosovo-related conditionality set out at the December GAC if we are to agree to open accession negotiations with Serbia at the June GAC.
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Ministers may also consider progress made by Bosnia and Herzegovina’s (BiH) leaders on agreeing changes to the constitution to bring it into line with the European Court of Human Rights judgment on Sejdic and Finci. We will reaffirm our continued commitment to BiH’s EU perspective but are clear that existing conditionality must be met and that continued inaction will not go unnoticed. The onus is on BiH’s leaders to demonstrate their commitment and willingness to work together so as to make progress on the EU agenda in the interests of its citizens.
Iran E3+3
Baroness Ashton will update Ministers on the latest round of E3+3 nuclear talks with Iran, which took place in Almaty, Kazakhstan, 5 and 6 April. Iran showed some willingness to engage on the substance, but its current position falls far short of what is needed for a diplomatic breakthrough. As a result, the E3+3 did not immediately agree to a further meeting but returned to capitals to consider how to move forward.
Eastern partnership
Ministers will have a discussion on the eastern partnership, looking ahead to November’s eastern partnership summit in Vilnius. We expect the discussion to focus in particular on Ukraine and Belarus. The UK remains committed to a closer relationship between the EU and Ukraine, and we will continue to make clear that progress is dependent on Ukraine making necessary reforms. On Belarus, we welcome the news that Sweden can re-establish a diplomatic presence in Minsk. We will continue to make clear that development of the relationship with Belarus is conditional upon improvements in human rights, democracy and the rule of law, including the release and rehabilitation of political prisoners.
Southern neighbourhood
On Syria, Ministers will discuss the deteriorating situation on the ground, including the humanitarian aspects and the EU response to it, and the need to provide support to the Syrian National Coalition. We will emphasise the need to consider amending the EU sanctions package.
On Lebanon, following the recent resignation of Prime Minister Mikati and the appointment of Mr Tamam Salara as Prime Minister designate, the discussion is likely to focus on the need to encourage the swift formation of a cabinet; for consensus over a new elections law; and for timely parliamentary elections. Ministers are also likely to discuss the effects of the conflict in Syria, with Lebanon now host to nearly 400,000 refugees, impacting on its security, stability and economy.
Baroness Ashton will report back from her recent visit to Egypt. The UK will voice backing for ongoing EU support of Egyptian political and economic reform, but emphasise also the importance of the “more for more” principle in EU engagement with Egypt.
Mali
The discussion on Mali will focus on the need for further progress to be made on national dialogue and reconciliation, leading to elections scheduled for July. Ministers will take stock of developments in New York, following the UN Security Council’s negotiations on a resolution authorising a UN operation in Mali. They will also consider the EU’s overall common security and defence policy (CSDP) response to Mali and the Sahel region, in the context of the EU’s strategy for security and development in the Sahel.
Burma
Ministers will discuss the situation in Burma in the context of reviewing EU restrictive measures, which are currently suspended apart from the arms embargo and restrictions on the supply of equipment which could be used for internal repression. We expect conclusions to welcome the significant reforms and highlight the challenges that remain, including the situation in Rakhine state and the plight of the Rohingya; the need to reach a ceasefire with the Kachin, and move towards political dialogue with all Burma’s ethnic groups; and to release remaining political prisoners. We will emphasise the importance of a more comprehensive approach to future EU engagement with Burma in the run up to and beyond national elections in 2015.
European Defence Agency steering board
The European Defence Agency (EDA) steering board on 23 April will focus on preparations for the agency’s input to the December 2013 European Council on defence, concentrating on increasing the effectiveness, visibility and impact of the common security and defence policy (CSDP); enhancing the development of defence capabilities; and strengthening Europe’s defence industry. The steering board will consider the EDA’s proposals to explore possibilities to expand pooling demand to cover the whole life-cycle; to intensify its efforts to support battlegroups and EU operations; and identify with member states co-operative projects to improve the pooling demand concept. To enhance the development of defence capabilities, the EDA will invite the steering board to endorse actions to increase co-operation between member states.
The EDA will invite the steering board to endorse proposals to launch “pioneer projects” in remote piloted aircraft systems, cyber defence and secure telecom by satellite. The board will note the progress made in the air-to-air refuelling project and will be invited to endorse the establishment of a category A programme on the military implementation of single European sky ATM research (SESAR). The UK is supportive of the EDA’s air-to-air refuelling project, and has offered unallocated UK Voyager flying hours to interested nations on a “pool and charge” basis. We will invite member states interested in clearing aircraft to declare their interest in the UK project with the EDA as soon as possible.
Defence Foreign Affairs Council
EU training mission Mali
Ministers will discuss current EU CSDP operations, focusing on EU training mission (EUTM) Mali, over dinner on Monday 22 April. General Lecointre, head of mission EUTM Mali, will provide an update on progress on training the Malian armed forces. Discussion is likely to cover developments on the future of the African-led international support mission to Mali, AFISMA, the provision of equipment for the Malian armed forces, and a possible UN peacekeeping role. The chair of the EU Military Committee will provide an update on other military missions. We will reiterate ongoing UK support for the EU CSDP missions and operations.
December European Council
Ministers will discuss preparations for the December 2013 European Council on defence. We will set out the UK aims, which are to ensure that there is a focus on the comprehensive approach and complementarity with NATO; to improve cost-effectiveness and operational delivery; to enhance capabilities that benefit both NATO and the EU; and for this to be underpinned by a strengthened defence industrial base that will help boost longer-term competitiveness and economic growth.
Battlegroups
The UK will lead the EU battlegroup (EUBG) in the second half of 2013 with Lithuania, Latvia, Sweden and the Netherlands. Preparing for this role not only demonstrates our commitment to the concept but also provides training and transformational benefits, including for our partners. We will set out our view on the possible closer integration of the battlegroup into the EU’s wider tools and strategies, making it clear that we are not looking to alter the level of ambition, nor to reopen the battlegroup concept. We will continue to push for the battlegroup to be a more credible, usable and deployable entity, working closely with civilian actors, to make a positive contribution to international crisis management. Future UK offers to act as a framework nation for the EUBG will be kept under review.
Courts and Tribunals (Fee Remissions)
(11 years ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Mrs Helen Grant)
I am today publishing a consultation on the system of fee remissions for courts and tribunals. The proposals in this consultation paper (Cm 8608) will ensure that access to justice is maintained for those who cannot afford a court or tribunal fee. They will also provide a better targeted system of fee remissions so that those who can afford to pay a fee do so.
The proposals set out in this consultation paper represent a wide-ranging reform of the fee remissions system. A fee remission is a full or partial waiver of the fees that become payable when an individual uses certain court or tribunal services.
The remission system ensures that access to justice is maintained for those individuals on lower incomes who would otherwise have difficulty paying a fee by providing access to that service free of charge or at a reduced rate.
Our aim is to produce a remissions system which is better targeted, fairer, easy for users to understand and more coherent. To achieve this, the consultation paper proposes three key changes:
The introduction of a unified system of remissions across courts and tribunals.
The introduction of a disposable capital test to assess eligibility for a remission.
The introduction of a simplified income test, with a greater level of contribution required from those who receive a partial remission.
Implementation of these proposals will mean that the taxpayer contribution towards fee remissions will be targeted towards those who need it most. The proposals also ensure that the system of remissions takes into account the introduction of universal credit which replaces several benefits that currently determine eligibility for a remission.
The consultation will be open for a period of four weeks. We plan to implement an amended remissions system for the start of October 2013, in time for the introduction of the universal credit.
The consultation will be available in the Vote Office, the Printed Paper Office and on the Ministry of Justice website.