Finance (No. 2) Bill

Andy McDonald Excerpts

Thursday 18th April 2013 Commons Chamber

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that intervention, because it demonstrates an unduly simplistic approach. Indeed, poorer people may have a higher propensity to spend than richer people, but that is not the end point of the economic cycle. There need to be deposits in banks so that money can be lent to businesses—small businesses as well as large—and so that people can take out mortgages. There is a cycle and a flow of money.

[Andy McDonald (Middlesbrough) (Lab)]

Will the hon. Gentleman explain why, when I speak to banks—I had a conversation with Barclays bank not many weeks ago—they say that they do have deposits and the ability to lend, but that money is not flowing out because people are not approaching them? Is that the reason or is it that the terms on which they propose to lend money are so onerous that the transactions do not proceed? Whichever it is, my understanding is that the banks do have the funds.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

One of the major flaws that led to the banking crisis was that loan-to-deposit ratios across the banking sector were out of kilter. Banks were lending more than they had on deposit and were therefore entirely dependent on the wholesale market. The wholesale market dried up, which led to a huge calling in of loans. That was at the heart of the financial crisis.

The banks may be saying that they are more comfortable with their loan-to-deposit ratios, but if one looks at the figures, even HSBC’s loan-to-deposit ratio—for its UK business, rather than its international business—is about 100%. Historically, banks have been more comfortable in the 70% to 80% range. We therefore do need more savings in the economy and those come from the better-off saving some of the income that they earn.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman on that at all, because this country attracts a huge amount of foreign investment. Sticking to the example of the Hongkong and Shanghai Banking Corporation, that company was able to ease its way through the financial crisis because it could lend its overseas deposits to its British business. It was on the backs of savers in Hong Kong and China that HSBC was secure during that period.

Rich people saving their income is a good thing economically because it boosts the pool of saving that is available for productive investment, such as loans to businesses and individuals. Even if the argument were right that this policy is a great boondoggle for the wealthy, which it is not, it would be beneficial because it would help the economy get back on to a path to growth by providing the capital that is needed for the banks to lend.

In summary, it is clear that putting rates up leads to less tax. That is not a sensible thing to do when the Government are short of money. It is not fair, indeed it is unfair, because it puts a greater burden on other members of society who have less ability to pay. It is not morally defensible because high rates of tax are not a moral good and low rates a moral evil; in fact, it is the other way round. People have a right to keep the money that they earn, unless the state can show that it is essential to take it. That is economically beneficial because one of the great problems of our economy is a lack of saving. We are not in the paradox of thrift circumstance, in which excess savings deflate the economy.

For all those reasons, the amendment should be rejected and Her Majesty’s Government should be proud of what they have done. Indeed, they should go further and look to get the higher rate of tax down to 40% and perhaps even to that magic figure of 37%, which, as I said earlier, some studies show would be the perfect rate to maximise revenue, encourage people to work hard and continue us on our path to success.

[Andy McDonald]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hood.

I will address the amendment directly. The lowering of the top rate of income tax to 45p will benefit 267,000 people who earn more than £150,000. In my view, it cannot be right that those who earn more than £1 million a year will receive a tax cut of more than £100,000. Families across the country will be £891 worse off on average as a result of the Chancellor’s changes to tax, tax credits and benefits since 2010. I am at a loss as to how that fits with the concept that we are all in it together. The 1% cap on tax credits and working-age benefits means a cut in real terms. At the bottom, inflation outstrips increases in earnings, whereas at the top, earnings outstrip inflation.

Acres of copy have been written about Baroness Thatcher over the past week, but one of her utterances that has not received the attention that it deserves is her expression of disappointment that, despite having made it possible for a small minority of people to gain control of the majority of the wealth of this country, that has not given rise to a greater degree of charity or generosity. Interestingly, it is often those who have the least who give the most. Two examples of such generosity are imprinted on my mind. The first was in 1984, when people from my community made regular trips up to Easington colliery with bags and boxes of food to assist families in County Durham who were finding life such a struggle.

The second example is from recent weeks, when I visited one of the five food banks in my constituency run by the Trussell Trust. It was heartbreaking to hear from the local director of the trust, Nigel Perrott, that food parcels were being sent to my town of Middlesbrough from places such as York and Thirsk. He hails from the home counties and credits people in that part of the country with tremendous generosity. However, he said that he had been surprised and overwhelmed by the generosity of the people of Middlesbrough. When they come out of the supermarkets, they do not donate the occasional tin of beans or packet of rice, but bags and bags of food. It seems that everything changes, but nothing changes. It is perhaps no coincidence that such desperate need arises when the Conservative party is in power.

We used to hear a lot from the Prime Minister about the big society, although a lot less so recently. The genuine big society is, as it ever was, ordinary people looking after each other.

[Robert Flello]

I am enjoying my hon. Friend’s contribution, albeit that it is tinged with quite a lot of despair. To reinforce his point, last Saturday a trolley push organised by the Trussell Trust gathered more than 325 kilos of food from the people of Stoke-on-Trent for the people of Stoke-on-Trent.

[Andy McDonald]

My hon. Friend makes a telling point and I would not want to diminish the importance of what I am saying by qualifying what he said about despair. As in his constituency, this Friday we will have a wonderful demonstration of generosity in my constituency with the same sort of event—a trolley push. My point, however, which I wish to reinforce, is that there is such a spirit of determination and people are so resilient that they will not be beaten by this situation. However, they will come through it not because of this Government but despite them.

While tax cuts are being handed out to millionaires, 40% of children in my constituency are living in poverty. I cannot see how fairness and the apparent principles of a big society are influencing or informing this Government’s policies one iota. I do not wish to dwell too much on the negativity, but it is unavoidable given that my constituency is the second worst in the country for long-term unemployment. We are asking for fair treatment. North-east England is the only net exporting region in the country; our contribution to the national economy is massive but the people see little of the benefits. It is about fairness.

The Prime Minister and Chancellor have repeatedly said that those with the broadest shoulders should bear the largest load. They claim that the 45p tax rate raises more revenue, but one data point is totally unreliable, as has been exposed in the Chamber today. It is also clear that the richest will arrange their affairs, especially when such a reduction was so well telegraphed. The richest have benefited most from our society, and the amount of tax they pay is proportionately more than their numbers, but proportionately less than their wealth. Relative to their income, the Chancellor’s biggest tax rise—that on VAT—hurts those at the bottom most. The rich still do very well, with company directors getting inflation-busting pay increases, and bank executives getting huge bonuses, which the Prime Minister went to Brussels to defend.

[Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)]

The Committee may already know, and people will be interested to hear that, in the past two years, pay increases for the top 10% were on average 5.5% in both years. The top 10% have increased their pay by 11%. The Government claim that the rich are making a greater contribution, but they have very thick wallets to start with and, frankly, are sitting comfortably.

[Andy McDonald]

That is exactly right. I was going to make that point another way and say that company directors of the FTSE 100 received on average a 50% pay rise in 2011—Income Data Service provided that information. The well-off enjoy the benefits of many interesting incentive schemes that are not available to ordinary working people such as Mrs O’Reilly or Mr Hussain in my constituency, where the average income for a full-time employee is less than £500.

--- Later in debate ---

[Geraint Davies]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his enormous generosity in giving way. I have a schedule from a constituent that details his personal means. Until the beginning of this month he had £21.25 a week left for food and clothing after paying his utility bills and allowing £6 for bus fares. After the introduction of the empty bedroom tax, which will cost £10.31, he will end up with under £11 a week for food. Some problem could happen along the lines mentioned by my hon. Friend, but assuming that nothing else is needed, he will have just £11 a week. We would not want that desperate situation to happen in a developing country, let alone in Britain. How can we justify giving money to the richest when people are in despair and poverty?

[Andy McDonald]

I absolutely agree. People are getting down to the pennies, not the pounds, yet this month multimillionaires will get an extra £2,000 a week. We should be thoroughly ashamed of delivering that to our people. I sometimes wonder what on earth we mean by patriotism in our land. We can wave our flags and hold the necessary ceremonial events, but where do the people come in? For my money, patriotism must be about our people. We sometimes lose sight of that and get confused by the panoply and array of colourful images of patriotism that do not go to the heart of the living and working conditions of our people.

[Geraint Davies]

My hon. Friend mentions patriotism, which reminds me of yesterday’s great spectacle of Baroness Thatcher’s funeral, which many people would have enjoyed watching on television. However, let us not forget that that £10 million would have kept my constituent going on his previous income for 10,000 years, and on his new income for 20,000 years. Is that not a disgrace?

--- Later in debate ---

[Andy McDonald]

My hon. Friend’s point is well made —he expresses it well.

I shall conclude by highlighting the lack, as I perceive it, of any conversion among Departments. There is a desire to offer assistance to the insurance industry, which will no doubt be delighted that it will no longer have to pay compensation to people in the circumstances I have described. I strongly suspect that the measure will not help our industries one jot—I do not foresee any massive reduction in the employers’ liability premiums that will be charged as a result of the measure—and, frankly, the insurance industry is laughing all the way to the bank. I do not know whether it is laughing with or at the Government, but in any event, it is has received a fabulous return at the country’s expense.

All that is happening in the run-up to workers memorial day. It saddens me immensely that we will commemorate the dead and fight for the living on that day when employers know that the regulations we have fought so hard to introduce to our workplaces to promote a safety culture have no teeth whatever. As a result of the measures, there will be an increase in deaths and serious injuries in the workplace. That, too, will be visited on the statutory services. We are compounding error on error. I urge the Government to think carefully about the impact of those policies.

The point is well made that the Treasury is defending the rich and powerful against ordinary working people. The reflex of Government Members is to protect the powerful against the powerless; those with a voice against the voiceless; and those who control the wealth of this nation against those who build it.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—