House of Commons

Tuesday 13th July 2010 Commons Chamber

Tuesday 13 July 2010

The House met at half-past Two o’clock

Prayers

Tuesday 13th July 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Oral Answers to Questions

Tuesday 13th July 2010 Commons Chamber

The Chancellor of the Exchequer was asked—

[Eric Ollerenshaw (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Con)]

1. What steps he plans to take to support economic growth in the north-west.

[Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con)]

14. What steps he plans to take to support economic growth in the north-west.

[The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Danny Alexander)]

I am delighted to have the opportunity to answer these questions on behalf of the Chancellor, who is at the ECOFIN meeting today.

In order to support private sector enterprise throughout the UK and ensure that all parts of the country, including the north-west, benefit from sustainable economic growth, the Government announced a number of measures in the Budget, such as using the national insurance system to encourage the creation of new businesses and establishing a £1 billion regional growth fund. Later in the summer we will publish a White Paper on a new approach to sub-national growth, including local enterprise partnerships, local incentives and more powers for major cities.

[Eric Ollerenshaw]

I thank my right hon. Friend for that detailed answer. My question relates to the abolition of the Northwest Regional Development Agency. Does he agree with the comments of Councillor Peter Gibson, leader of the excellent Wyre borough council in my constituency, who said last week that its abolition will give us the potential to relieve the bureaucracy on the backs of local authorities and businesses and the potential for a fairer distribution of resources throughout Lancashire?

[Danny Alexander]

I am very grateful for that question. It is precisely because of such concerns that we have chosen to establish local economic partnerships. The Secretaries of State for Communities and Local Government and for Business, Innovation and Skills jointly wrote to local authorities inviting submissions for the establishment of those new bodies, which will be partnerships between local authorities and local businesses. That is the right way to promote economic growth in localities.

[Andrew Stephenson]

I thank my right hon. Friend for that answer. Picking up on what my hon. Friend the Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Eric Ollerenshaw) said about the Northwest Regional Development Agency, is my right hon. Friend aware that the North of England Inward Investment Agency, which is sponsored by the Northwest RDA and One NorthEast, currently maintains five offices in north America? In light of the record budget deficit, can he assure the House that he will look carefully into overseas offices and whether they deliver value for money?

[Danny Alexander]

The hon. Gentleman makes a very good point, and there is an awful lot of waste in the regional development agency system more generally. Of course, it will be for the local economic partnerships to look at such issues and work out whether they wish to come together to promote their region in a wider way, but his point serves to reinforce the argument for the structural change that we are making.

[Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab)]

There is no doubt in my mind that the Northwest Regional Development Agency has been a bureaucratic burden on the economy of the north-west since it was started. It has also followed capricious policies that have not directed investment where it would create most jobs. How will the right hon. Gentleman ensure that money is invested in those places where it will create most jobs?

[Danny Alexander]

I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his comments in support, I think, of the policy that we are pursuing. The local enterprise partnerships will be able to choose for themselves and direct where they think investment is needed in their localities. One major tool that they will have at their disposal is the ability, as a public-private partnership, to apply to the regional growth fund for investment in their areas. Obviously, that will be allocated in ways to be announced, but I hope that it will provide a tool for those new bodies to do precisely the sorts of things that the hon. Gentleman set out.

[Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)]

Businesses in the north-west will have seen the National Institute of Economic and Social Research arguing that growth will now be lower as a result of the Budget; they will have seen two reports of business confidence in their region and throughout the UK tumbling as a result of the Budget; and, just last week, they will have seen the International Monetary Fund’s devastating downgrading of its forecast for UK growth. Are not people in the north-west listening to the Chief Secretary trying to sell the Budget as a Budget for growth entitled to feel that, actually, they are being sold the emperor’s new clothes?

[Danny Alexander]

People in the north-west and elsewhere will have seen the Office for Budget Responsibility’s forecast, which predicts that during the course of our Budget over the next four years we will see rising economic growth, falling unemployment and rising employment. They will have seen also the OECD’s forecast and review of the UK, which was published today and includes the title, “A Strategy To Instill Confidence and Boost Growth”. That is precisely what our Budget is.

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

2. What assessment he has made of the likely effect of the proposed increase in the standard rate of value added tax on the retail sector in Wales.

[The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Gauke)]

A full impact assessment was published on Budget day. Although it focused on the compliance costs for all businesses, it had an emphasis on retailers, as it acknowledged that they were expected to incur higher compliance costs. However, having experienced two VAT changes in the previous two years, retailers should now be familiar with the necessary system and process changes.

[Chris Bryant]

I am sorry but that was a really complacent answer. Much of the retail sector in my constituency is very dependent on the business that comes in through the door from pensioners. There are 13,000 of them in the Rhondda, a growing number, and they are the people who will be very heavily hit by the VAT increase, because they will have less discretionary income to spend on gifts and the things that make life worth living. Will the hon. Gentleman look specifically at how the retail sector in more distant areas—outside the main city centres—can be supported?

[Mr Gauke]

The fact is that we had to raise VAT because there was no money left. I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman is proposing that we should have cut spending by even more, but I do not think that that would have a lot of support on his Benches or on ours. After all, our predecessors looked very closely at raising VAT and would have done so had the previous Prime Minister not vetoed it.

[David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)]

What would the people of Wales make of the fact that the previous Government were going to raise VAT to 19%? Would they not surely conclude that this was going to happen under any Government elected in May 2010 because of the mess made by the last one?

[Mr Gauke]

The fact is that the deficit has to be reduced, and VAT is one of the few levers available to the Government to do that. Any sensible Government would consider it; and indeed, given the circumstances we are in, any Government would do it.

[Mr Liam Byrne (Birmingham, Hodge Hill) (Lab)]

When the Chancellor rose to give us his Budget a few weeks ago, he promised that he would give it to us straight. He somehow forgot to tell us that Britain’s pensioners may face an £8 billion VAT bill over the course of this Parliament. Given that neither Government party has a mandate for introducing VAT increases, does the Minister agree that, at the very least, this House deserves a report on the impact of VAT on pensioners before the increase comes into effect?

[Mr Gauke]

We have provided more detail of the distributional impact of this VAT rise than the previous Government ever did or would have done had they increased VAT last December. The fact is that this Chancellor—like this Treasury team—has the courage of his convictions to do the right thing, unlike his predecessors, who neither pursued the policies they believed in nor had a leader they believed in.

[John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab)]

3. What recent representations he has received on the level of the UK national debt relative to that of other countries; and if he will make a statement.

[The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Danny Alexander)]

The UK faces one of the largest fiscal challenges of any advanced economy. According to the International Monetary Fund, between 2007 and 2015 the UK is forecast to experience the most rapid increase in net debt of any G7 economy, with the exception of Japan. The Office for Budget Responsibility’s pre-Budget forecast shows that without further action to tackle the deficit, debt would still be rising in 2014-15. As result of the actions set out by the Government in the June Budget, the OBR projects that debt will have declined to 69.4% of gross domestic product in 2014-15— 5% of GDP lower than under the plans the Government inherited.

[John Mann]

That was a lot of words, but the Chief Secretary did not answer the question. Why does the United States have a much higher debt than we have, and why do Canada, Italy, France, Germany and Japan all have, as a percentage of GDP, higher debt than we have? Is it true that the extent of the cuts is driven not by economics but by ideology?

[Danny Alexander]

No, that is not true. The plain fact is that, as I said earlier, we have the fastest growing debt and the largest deficit in the European Union apart from Ireland. In the Budget we have taken action to ensure that we prevent the key risk facing growth in this country, which is a failure to take action and a failure to restore confidence in the economy, potentially causing us the sort of problems that we have seen in other European countries. That is the problem that we need to avoid.

[Sir Peter Tapsell (Louth and Horncastle) (Con)]

Does the Chief Secretary agree that it is the refinancing capability of the national debt as redemption dates are reached that really matters?

[Danny Alexander]

Of course that matters, but what matters more than anything is the risks that this economy would have faced if we had stuck with the plans of the previous Government, which would have risked higher interest rates, lower growth and fewer jobs, and there would have been very big risks in the future.

[Mr Alistair Darling (Edinburgh South West) (Lab)]

I am glad that the Chief Secretary at least accepts the proposition put by the hon. Member for Louth and Horncastle (Sir Peter Tapsell).

We all agree that to get debt down, growth is essential. However, has the Chief Secretary noticed this morning’s remarks by Geoffrey Dicks, a member of the Office for Budget Responsibility, who said that his office had cut its forecasts for growth by 0.5% as a result of the Budget announcements two weeks ago, and went on to say that logically, as he put it, that increased the chances of our economy slipping back into recession?

[Danny Alexander]

He also made it clear that he did not think that that risk was a likely one. In the Budget—this is the important central judgment that the House needs to understand—we have faced up to the fact that if we had carried on with the plans of the previous Government, the big risk facing the economy would have been higher interest rates, fewer jobs, and a reduction in growth, and we would have faced the big risk that we have seen in other countries, which we need to ensure does not happen in this country. Our Budget has ensured that that risk is avoided; the previous Government would not have done that.

[Michael Fallon (Sevenoaks) (Con)]

Given that the IMF report said that we would have had the highest public borrowing in the G20 this year and the worst structural deficit in the OECD, has the Chief Secretary, the Chancellor or any Treasury Minister yet received a formal apology from the Labour party for the appalling state of the economy?

[Danny Alexander]

Sadly, there has been no formal apology. Labour Members are free to offer one during this questions session should they wish to. In fact, with the revised Office for National Statistics forecasts of the last couple of days, we have seen the predicted reduction in the size of the economy go from 6.2% to 6.4%. Even after they have left office, their recession is still getting worse.

[Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)]

Is the UK on the brink of a debt downgrade because the rating agencies have noted that the Government propose to cut capital allowances and therefore stifle investment, or because the agencies do not share the Government’s optimism about Europe’s capacity to buy UK goods in the future?

[Danny Alexander]

No, the hon. Gentleman will know that the rating agencies’ response to the Budget has been positive and ensured that we have a stronger position going forward.

[Stephen Williams (Bristol West) (LD)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that given that we are currently spending more on interest on our accumulated debt than we are on schools, police officers and other important measures, we must take difficult decisions now to release more money to spend on vital public services later in this Parliament?

[Danny Alexander]

I could not agree more with my hon. Friend, who sets out the case strongly. From what I read, I believe that that position was understood by the previous Government. I read the former Chancellor’s interview in The Guardian, in which he said:

“There were bits of medicine we could have administered last year that would have made things easier. Had we gone further in saying to people round the cabinet table we are not going to do this”—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman, but I do not think we need to dilate on the policies of the Opposition.

[Gordon Banks (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Lab)]

4. What recent assessment he has made of the effects of the change in the rate of capital gains tax on the number of business start-ups.

[The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr Mark Hoban)]

The change in the rate of capital gains tax is not expected to have a material impact on the number of business start-ups. The lifetime limit on gains qualifying for the entrepreneurs relief—the 10% CGT rate—was increased from £2 million to £5 million in the Budget. That will benefit entrepreneurs and small business owners.

[Gordon Banks]

I thank the Financial Secretary for his response, but does he share my concern that the change in capital gains tax will mean a reduction in businesses in the private housing rental sector, and with it, as predicted by Rightmove, a growth in rents and a shrinkage in the number of houses for rent? If so, what is he going to do about it?

[Mr Speaker]

I call the Chief Secretary. No, the Minister.

[Mr Hoban]

I have not been promoted, Mr Speaker.

The changes to capital gains tax that we have introduced will ensure that the right tax regime is in place and that it is fair and responsible. The hon. Gentleman ought to remember, of course, that the capital gains tax rate for second homes prior to the Budget was 24%. It has now gone up to 28% for those paying higher rate taxes, but those on basic rate taxes will be paying only 18%.

[Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (LD)]

5. What recent representations he has received on the proposals in the June 2010 Budget intended to increase economic growth; and if he will make a statement.

[The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Danny Alexander)]

The Government have received representations on a range of proposals to increase economic growth. Indeed, the Budget is about growth. It is about underpinning private sector confidence and creating the space for business to grow, redressing the balance between the public and private sector. Crucial to promoting growth is cleaning up the public finances and the mess that the previous Government left. That is why the OECD document published today described the Budget as “courageous” and “appropriate”.

[Annette Brooke]

Given the difficulties with time lags, for example between decision making and outcomes, how will the Chief Secretary monitor the overall impact of the stimulus given to growth in the private sector and the necessary cuts in Government expenditure, to ensure that we have a sustainable recovery and not a double-dip recession?

[Danny Alexander]

The measures in the Budget are set out precisely to ensure a sustainable recovery through a number of measures, particularly in the tax sphere and, following the earlier questions on regional growth, to stimulate business. Of course, it is now for the independent Office for Budget Responsibility to produce independent forecasts of growth, and it will do so at the time of future fiscal events.

[Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)]

The Budget VAT rise in January will affect economic growth on the islands of Scotland. Surely we need a rural fuel derogation in place before the rise. After all, the rural fuel derogation was in the coalition document, but the VAT rise was not.

[Danny Alexander]

The hon. Gentleman is right, of course, that the rural fuel derogation is in the coalition agreement. The Chancellor restated our commitment to investigating the matter in the Budget statement, and I can assure the hon. Gentleman that we will be coming forward with an announcement in due course.

[Mrs Helen Grant (Maidstone and The Weald) (Con)]

What action will the Chief Secretary take to boost new business in rural areas?

[Danny Alexander]

Businesses in rural areas will have the opportunity to benefit from the regional growth fund that we are establishing and which will help to support business growth in the regions of the country, particular those areas where dependence on public sector employment is greatest. Also, new businesses in rural areas will benefit from the cut we have announced in national insurance for new employees in new businesses.

[Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab)]

Is the Chief Secretary aware that, as part of the growth drive, the Treasury has set up a spending challenge website asking for ideas and assistance for the future, and that it is currently featuring issues such as sterilising the poor; reopening the workhouses; asking single parents who cannot finance their children to terminate the pregnancy; benefit claimants to work in sweatshops; and immigrants to be moved out of cities? Is he happy that such racist and offensive drivel is being hosted by one of his websites, and will he give the House an undertaking that the site will be moderated and that this stuff will be removed immediately?

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I know that the right hon. Gentleman, in answering the question, will focus his remarks on the June 2010 Budget.

[Danny Alexander]

I am grateful for that, Mr Speaker.

Of course, I would not wish to promote such ideas, but I am surprised that the hon. Lady pours scorn on the consultation process we are undertaking. She will know that we have also set up such a process for public sector workers. We have had more than 66,000 ideas from people who work in the public sector and who are suggesting savings that they believe can be made in their own services. That is a valuable part of the spending review process. However, we have not had a single idea from the Labour party on how we can make the savings, let alone the apology warranted for the terrible mess it left the economy in.

[David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con)]

6. What representations he has received from employers in the north-west on relief from national insurance contributions for new businesses; and if he will make a statement.

[The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Gauke)]

The holiday on national insurance contributions will support enterprise and private sector job creation. Representations from employers have been supportive of reducing taxes on jobs, and 400,000 new businesses are expected to benefit from the holiday on employer national insurance contributions, including about 70,000 in the north-west.

[David Rutley]

It is clear that this important Budget proposal will help to generate much-needed jobs for small businesses. Does my hon. Friend agree that this is a much better way of supporting job creation in places such as Macclesfield and the north-west, and in other regions, than relying on the public sector, as the Labour party did?

[Mr Gauke]

My hon. Friend is right. We cannot rely on the public sector for growth, simply because we have run out of money.

[Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central) (Lab)]

How many businesses—perhaps the Minister could name them given that there are so few—will do better because of the national insurance cut and will not suffer because of the VAT increase and the cutback in demand, which will be disastrous for businesses in the north-west?

[Mr Gauke]

The fact is that businesses would much rather we focus on dealing with the jobs tax, which our predecessors brought in. We recognise that we have to reduce the deficit and that tax has to play a role in that, but what we can do to create jobs in the private sector is reduce the burden from national insurance contributions. This particular policy, directed at areas where the public sector is largest and where we need a stronger private sector, has to be the way forward.

[Malcolm Bruce (Gordon) (LD)]

7. What plans he has for future changes to income tax arrangements.

[The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Gauke)]

In the Budget, the Government announced a £1,000 increase in personal allowances for under-65s. We estimate that 23 million basic rate taxpayers will gain by up to £170 per year from this measure, and that 880,000 will be taken out of tax altogether. This is the first step towards our long-term objective to raise the personal allowance to £10,000.

[Malcolm Bruce]

I am very grateful to the Minister for that informative answer. Can he give a more precise timetable for when the £10,000 threshold will be released? Will it be before the end of this Parliament? In other words, can it be even earlier than the five years that would otherwise be required?

[Mr Gauke]

I cannot give a precise timetable, but as I said, that is our long-term objective. I know that the right hon. Gentleman has a long and distinguished record in campaigning for that policy. I am sure that he will be pleased with the steps that we have taken so far, and I hope that others will follow.

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

When Ministers are thinking about the future planning for local income tax, do they not understand the concern on the Opposition Benches and in the country that this afternoon the chief lobbyist for the banking industry has been introduced as a Member of the other place, meaning that the interests of the banking industry will come before those of low-income families?

[Mr Gauke]

I am not quite sure that I necessarily follow what the hon. Gentleman has said, but what I would say is that we announced the introduction of a bank levy in the Budget and we have taken a lot of poorer households out of income tax. That shows the Government’s values.

[Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD)]

8. What assessment he has made of the level of tax avoidance during the period when the rate of capital gains tax was at 18%.

[The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Gauke)]

The Government estimate that prior to the emergency Budget, upwards of £1 billion of income tax revenues was forgone through income being turned into capital gains.

[Jo Swinson]

I thank the Minister for that reply, which shows that when the previous Labour Government reduced capital gains tax, they created an enormous loophole for tax avoidance for the wealthiest in our society. Does he have any further plans to clamp down on tax avoidance, to ensure that the wealthy pay their fair share?

[Mr Gauke]

There are measures contained in the Finance Bill, which we are currently debating, that will reduce tax avoidance. We take the issue seriously, but the hon. Lady puts her finger on one of the problems. There were a number of structural difficulties in the tax system as it was left to us, one of which was the wide disparity between income tax rates and capital gains tax rates, and we have been able to do something about that.

[Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op)]

In introducing the Budget, the Chancellor justified the move to a 28% rate in the following terms:

“I asked the Treasury to examine what would have happened if we had increased the rate much further beyond 28%, and its dynamic analysis showed that that would have resulted in smaller total revenues.”—[Official Report, 22 June 2010; Vol. 512, c. 178.]

Can the hon. Gentleman justify that?

[Mr Gauke]

Yes, and had the hon. Gentleman been in the Chamber at about quarter past 10 last night, he would have heard me doing so at some length. The fact is that for every 1% by which the gap between income tax and capital gains tax is reduced, we get an extra £60 million from income tax. However, there is also a countervailing pressure, which is that fewer transactions are entered into. The analysis based on studies done in America and elsewhere shows that 28% is about the level at which we maximise revenue.

[Mr Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) (Lab)]

9. What assessment he has made of the effect on low-income families of the implementation of the proposals in the June 2010 Budget.

[The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Justine Greening)]

The right hon. Gentleman will be aware that the Budget was really about achieving two things: reducing the fiscal deficit and protecting the most vulnerable in our society. I am sure that he will welcome the fact that, as we heard earlier, we have reduced the personal allowance on income tax, which means that nearly 900,000 people have been relieved from paying income tax altogether. That has also benefited 23 million people working in Britain who will benefit by up to £170 a year. Additionally, he will recognise that we have taken steps to increase the child tax credit by £150 next year and £60 the following year, which will benefit some 7,200 households in his constituency. As a result of that, levels of child poverty after the Budget will remain unaffected.

[Mr Clarke]

Let us get back to reality. In view of the increase in VAT, the slashing of benefits and the changes proposed for the disability living allowance, does the Chancellor have any proposals that will mean that the poorest and most vulnerable in our society are not treated disproportionately?

[Justine Greening]

The right hon. Gentleman is right to raise the issue of poverty, but to pick him up on disability living allowance, just 5% of those on DLA have been receiving it for less than five years. We should be trying to tackle the root causes of poverty, rather than putting people in a poverty trap. I am sure that he would welcome, as I do, the fact that the right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr Field) will be leading a review into poverty, to ensure that we can do just that: tackle the root causes of poverty, rather than persist with just the symptoms.

[Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) (Con)]

Will my hon. Friend comment on what she believes the effect on low-income families would be if we failed to deal with the £23,000 per person debt that we were left with by the former Government?

[Justine Greening]

I think that most people on the minimum wage would be shocked to hear that the amount of income tax that they pay every year is less than what the average taxpayer pays in debt interest. The best thing that we can do to help not just people on lower incomes, but all people, whether in or out of work, is to get our economy back on track. That means tackling the fiscal deficit, starting to bear down on waste in public services and also reforming public services, so that the money that we spend—money that taxpayers have provided to Government to provide public services—is spent effectively on delivering high-quality public services that they can use.

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

The choices that this Government have made on VAT increases, on cuts in child tax credit, on reducing maternity grant and on other public service cuts will hit the poorest people in the community the hardest. Will the Minister now publish in full the distribution analysis for the Budget, so that we can see the impact that it will have on the poorest in society, and see the difference that a Labour Government have made in comparison with this Conservative Government?

[Justine Greening]

The right hon. Gentleman clearly has not read the Red Book. I think that pages 66 and 67 show the distribution analysis in cash terms and as a percentage of income. We do not need to take any lectures from members of a Government who widened the gap between rich and poor.

[Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD)]

10. What steps his Department is taking to support economic growth in the north-east.

[The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr Mark Hoban)]

To support private sector enterprise throughout the UK and to ensure that all parts of the country benefit from sustainable economic growth, the Government will use the national insurance system to reduce the cost to new businesses of employing staff in all parts of the UK outside London, the south-east and the east of England. We will establish a £1 billion regional growth fund to support strategic growth and focus investment in the English regions. We will also publish a White Paper later in the summer on a new approach to sub-national growth, including local enterprise partnerships.

[Ian Swales]

Does the Minister agree that Teesside represents a great opportunity for the new green investment bank, and that it would be a good location for the administrative centre of the bank?

[Mr Hoban]

I welcome the interest shown in Teesside as a location for the green investment bank. Throughout the north-east, on Teesside, Wearside and Tyneside, we are seeing significant investment in green technology, which is a key way of rebalancing the economy and creating more private sector jobs in the north-east.

[Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)]

rose—

[Mr Speaker]

Is the hon. Gentleman’s question specifically on the north-east? No? I know that he is from the north-west. Never mind. I wondered whether he wanted to say something about the north-east, but no.

[Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)]

11. What steps he plans to take to support economic growth in the south-west.

[The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr Mark Hoban)]

As I stated in response to the previous question, there are a number of initiatives in the Budget to support economic growth in the regions. We estimate that up to 54,000 businesses in the south-west will benefit from the national insurance contributions exemption for new businesses, and our plans for NIC more broadly will save businesses in the south-west about £260 million.

[Mr Gray]

My constituents will be very glad to hear that, because times have been tough in North Wiltshire in recent years, particularly as a result of a contraction in food production and defence. What does my hon. Friend intend to do in regard to the excellent report produced by my constituent, Sir James Dyson, on innovation and technology, which seems to point the way forward for this new Government?

[Mr Hoban]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Sir James Dyson made an important contribution to the debate on increasing the high-tech sector, and the Government are looking at the implementation of his findings. In the Budget, we announced a review of the taxation of intellectual property, including research and development, and we are committed to ensuring that the UK again becomes a centre for high-tech manufacturing.

[Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab)]

But does the Minister agree that, in the south-west and in the whole of the UK, growth in the economy depends on growth in employment and jobs? What is his estimate, and that of the OBR, of the effect of his decisions on employment?

[Mr Hoban]

The independent forecast published by the OBR at the time of the Budget demonstrated that employment would rise over the course of the next five years.

[Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con)]

Five thousand small and medium-sized companies in Gloucestershire will welcome the Minister’s comments on progress for economic growth in the south-west, but will he tell us what specific plans the Government have to deal with the red tape and bureaucracy, which many of those businesses feel is an impediment to growth?

[Mr Hoban]

My hon. Friend is right to point out the barriers to investment that red tape can create. That is why we have set out a series of specific measures in the Budget to reduce the burden of red tape. We believe that that will help up to 500,000 businesses in the south-west.

[Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

12. What assessment he has made of the effect on levels of employment of the implementation of the measures proposed in the June 2010 Budget.

[The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr Mark Hoban)]

The OBR has published its assessment of economic prospects, taking into account the measures in the Budget. It forecasts that employment will rise, reaching 30.1 million in 2015. Reducing the deficit will mitigate the risks to the recovery, create the conditions needed for growth and enable mortgage rates to be kept lower for longer. The Government are committed to supporting private sector job creation, cutting corporation tax and raising the employers’ national insurance threshold to support the economy.

[Toby Perkins]

I thank the Minister for his response, but as the local futures group says, Chesterfield will lose 1,374 public sector jobs—almost 3% of our entire employment base—by 2016. Given that manufacturing allowances are to be cut, which will make it more difficult for us to grow our way out of the economic difficulties, and given the VAT rise, which will make it difficult for the retail sector, is not the reality that, far from this Tory Budget being courageous, the ideology behind it is going to hit people with their jobs?

[Mr Hoban]

The hon. Gentleman forgets the measures in the Budget that will increase employment opportunities —the cut in national insurance contributions, the tax break for new businesses, which will benefit businesses in his constituency, and the reduction in red tape. All those measures are geared towards improving the prospects of private sector growth in our economy. We need the economy to be led by the private sector.

[Matthew Hancock (West Suffolk) (Con)]

Given that sustainable employment can be supported only by dealing with the deficit, was the Minister grateful for the support of the shadow Chancellor, who said at lunchtime on the subject of raising VAT:

“I don’t have a philosophical problem with that”?

[Mr Hoban]

It is interesting to hear about views expressed after the election, which were kept silent before the election. We took the difficult decision in this Budget to lay the foundations for growth in the future and make sure that we pay the bills of the past. Sadly, that included the increase in VAT.

[Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab)]

How does the Minister expect increases in VAT to help employment?

[Mr Hoban]

By tackling budget deficits, we will be in a better position to keep interest rates lower. Serious concerns were expressed before the Budget about the ability of the previous Government to tackle the deficit. The tough action we have taken has been welcomed across the world and by rating agencies. It lays the right foundation for future growth. This Government are prepared to take the difficult decisions that the hon. Gentleman’s Government ducked before the election.

[Esther McVey (Wirral West) (Con)]

13. What recent discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for Health on funding for mental health services.

[The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Danny Alexander)]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her question. I know that she takes a great interest in these issues. We want to offer long-term solutions to people with mental health problems and provide psychological therapies to do that. Our coalition programme set out our intention to ensure greater access to talking therapies. That is why, on 23 June, the Secretary of State for Health pledged £70 million to continue the roll-out of psychological therapies across the NHS this year.

[Esther McVey]

Given the dire financial situation the last Government have left us in, and the very real impact it will have on each and every one of our lives, will the Minister go further to explain the £70 million that he plans to spend on psychological therapies in the current financial year? That is particularly important when one in four of us will in the course of our lifetimes suffer from problems in our mental well-being—including finance-related stress, reminding us of our inheritance from the previous Government.

[Danny Alexander]

The hon. Lady is quite right to spell out the importance of tackling mental health problems, which, as she says, many people experience during the course of their lives, so it should be taken very seriously. That is why we have continued to roll out funding for the expansion of talking therapies, which in many cases are the most effective. I also note that, unlike the Labour party, we have pledged to increase health spending in real terms during every year of this Parliament to enable these sorts of problems to continue to be tackled—even in very tight financial circumstances.

[Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)]

Investment in mental health through the NHS is very important. Equally, however, people with mental health problems are affected by many other issues, including the caps on housing benefit proposed in the Budget. Has the right hon. Gentleman had any discussions across Government about the impact of Treasury decisions—not just giving money away, but cutting funding—on people with mental health problems?

[Danny Alexander]

Supporting people with mental health problems through protecting the NHS budget is the best way to achieve the outcome that the hon. Lady suggests. There is also the Work programme, which is being developed by the Department for Work and Pensions to bring together and replace many of the employment initiatives of the previous Government, some of which were highly ineffective. Conditioned management of mental health problems will be part of that programme, which will help people with mental health problems back into work, which is, after all, the best route out of poverty.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

15. In what sectors of the economy he expects the export growth forecast contained in the June 2010 Budget to be achieved.

[The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Justine Greening)]

The export growth forecast produced by the Office for Budget Responsibility did not break it down by sector. However, we know that in 2009 manufacturing accounted for just over half of our exports, so there is a big opportunity here. We currently export more to Ireland than to Brazil, India, China and Russia combined. That is why the Prime Minister met the Indian Commerce Minister earlier this month to talk about economic opportunities for us over there. Later this month, he will lead a taskforce of UK business men to India to investigate export opportunities.

[Kevin Brennan]

I am afraid that the Minister has not seen this morning’s report from Cambridge Econometrics, which examines the effect of the Budget on manufacturing, and predicts a decline in manufacturing share and an expansion in the financial sector to its highest share ever. Is that what the Minister means by rebalancing the economy?

[Justine Greening]

Many people would consider that a bit rich coming from a member of the last Government, given that manufacturing declined at a steeper rate under them than under the previous Conservative Government. We aim to support manufacturing and, indeed, companies throughout our country through a robust and ambitious corporation tax package, through progress on national insurance, and through largely getting rid of the jobs tax that the last Government would have introduced. What we would like to hear from the Opposition is more constructive discussion about how to improve our exports.

[Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)]

In relation to export growth and other forecasting, will Ministers consider establishing a dynamic tax unit in the Treasury?

[Justine Greening]

One of the reasons why we set up the Office for Budget Responsibility was to ensure far more independent and transparent forecasting in relation to not just exports but all economic indicators. I am sure that over time the OBR will continue to develop that forecasting to make it even more effective. Let us make no mistake: setting up the OBR was a huge step forward in terms not just of transparency, but of robust data on which the public can really rely.

[Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op)]

Will not our exporters be hurt by the slashing of the capital allowances that went to our manufacturing industries? Is it not a hallmark of the Government’s priorities that they would rather give £400 million cashback to the banks by cutting their corporation tax than support our small and medium-sized enterprises in their export activities?

[Justine Greening]

I am not sure whether the hon. Gentleman has talked to industry about its reaction to the Budget. I think that if he talked to the Institute of Directors, the CBI and the Federation of Small Businesses he would find that they welcome it, because they know it will help them to grow their businesses and grow employment. I only wish that the hon. Gentleman could recognise that and welcome it too.

[Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

16. What recent progress he has made on reducing the cost to the public purse of his Department’s non-departmental public bodies.

[The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Justine Greening)]

When I looked into whether the Treasury had any non-departmental public bodies, I found that we had just one, the Royal Mint Advisory Committee, which comes up to London three times a year to advise the Chancellor on coin designs. I then tried to find out how much it cost the taxpayer. The answer is nothing, because its charges have been taken over by the Royal Mint, which is an arm’s length Government company. I hope that that answers my hon. Friend’s question.

[Tony Baldry]

Across Government, how many quangos are there, how much taxpayers’ money are they wasting, and how will they be made democratically accountable?

[Justine Greening]

The answers to my hon. Friend’s questions are “Too many”, “Too much”, and “Through the spending review and over the course of the Parliament.”

[Amber Rudd (Hastings and Rye) (Con)]

18. What steps he plans to take to support economic growth in the south-east.

[The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Justine Greening)]

We will continue to ensure that we can support economic growth through the United Kingdom, including the south-east. As was made clear earlier, we have an ambitious package that contains a road map for reducing corporation tax year on year. I should point out that had the last Government remained in power, they would have left corporation tax as it is. Indeed, corporation tax for small companies would have risen at the very time we should be allowing companies to retain more of their profits to invest in their businesses.

As my hon. Friend will know, there is a regional growth fund that will help regions throughout our country to grow. We are also complementing the national measures that we are taking by seeking to ensure that local authorities working across various local partnerships can stimulate their own economies.

[Amber Rudd]

I thank the Minister for that answer. Is she aware that certain areas of the south-east have very high levels of public sector employment? I am thinking in particular of the town of Hastings in my constituency, where we have 43% public sector employment. What steps can be taken to help such areas of the south-east to benefit from the national insurance advantage proposed in the Budget?

[Justine Greening]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. If we are to get our economy back on track, particularly in areas such as that which she represents where there has been a growing imbalance and instability—and unsustainability as well—in the local economy, we must have a package of measures in place that can stimulate the private sector. I have set out some of those in terms of corporation tax, and my hon. Friend is right that the regional growth fund is another key investment fund that hopefully can help her area.

[Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab)]

Should businesses in the south-east be concerned now that the Office for Budget Responsibility has made it clear to the Treasury Committee that the Budget increases the chances of a double-dip recession?

[Justine Greening]

I do not think the hon. Gentleman is right about that at all. The OBR clearly set out that it expects our economy to grow over the coming years. It expects unemployment to fall and employment to rise, and the hon. Gentleman should welcome that.

[Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab)]

T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

[The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Danny Alexander)]

The core purpose of the Treasury is to ensure the stability of the economy, promote growth and employment, reform the banking system and manage the public finances so that Britain lives within her means.

[Jessica Morden]

Many small charities are extremely worried about the rise in VAT. Does the Minister think it is fair that charities be hit in this way?

[The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Justine Greening)]

The hon. Lady is right to raise the issue of charities; in fact it is an issue in which we have taken a great interest coming into government. I hope she will welcome the fact that we are continuing with the gift aid forum, which brings together a range of people interested in charities and charity tax to look at how we can stimulate gift aid and make it more effective over the coming years. The hon. Lady is also right about the impact of VAT on charities, but we have to sort out the economic mess the last Government left us, and the best way to sustain the funding of charities is to make sure people have jobs and money in their pockets that they feel they can donate.

[Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD)]

T2. Does the recent experience of changes in VAT rates support the assumption of both the Treasury and the Institute for Fiscal Studies that there will be full pass-through of the proposed increase in VAT, or might we reasonably hope that large retailers will shoulder some of the burden?

[The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Gauke)]

The assessment set out in the Red Book is that it is likely that two thirds will be passed on immediately and most of the rest will be passed on over the course of the next 12 months. In some cases retailers may bear some of the increase themselves, and we will obviously be studying the matter very closely.

[Mr Alistair Darling (Edinburgh South West) (Lab)]

Does the Chief Secretary, in the Chancellor’s absence, agree that the independence and credibility of the OBR are absolutely paramount? Sir Alan Budd said to the Treasury Committee this morning that the numbers he released two weeks ago

“were not an appropriate basis for attempting to estimate the effects of the June Budget on general government employment”,

and the Prime Minister was quite wrong to claim that they were. Would it not be better for the OBR to be more accountable to this House, with its appointments being subject to confirmation hearings by the Treasury Committee, and for its deliberations to be completely open and transparent? What we have at the moment is a good idea strangled at birth by the way in which this Government have been treating it.

[Danny Alexander]

The independence of the OBR is not in question. That was made clear by Alan Budd in his evidence to the Treasury Committee today. This is a good idea that was brought forward by this Government, and it will be established in legislation. I do not think it was even part of the former Chancellor’s secret plans before the election, alongside a rise in VAT, a cut in corporation tax and a cut in income tax. Those are measures he should be supporting in this Budget, because he came up with them in the first place.

[Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con)]

T4. When the Exchequer Secretary answered the hon. Member for Edmonton (Mr Love) earlier on capital gains tax, he quite properly justified the increase in CGT on the basis of a dynamic model of both income tax and CGT. Will he publish that model and its supporting evidence?

[Mr Gauke]

If I may help my right hon. Friend, at the time of the Budget we did publish our Budget policy costings, setting out the exact details. That information is available to him, and it was, indeed, touched on in last night’s debate.

[Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)]

T3. The Chief Secretary justifies massive cuts to the public sector through fears of a sovereign debt crisis as the credit rating agencies downgrade our debt, but those same agencies were giving triple A ratings to junk financial instruments right up to the crash. Can he explain whether credit rating agencies, discredited as they are, or Tory ideology is driving these cuts?

[Danny Alexander]

The measures we have taken in the Budget are necessary to tackle the mess that the previous Government left. The degree of denial that the Opposition are in about the mess they created, the huge debt they built up and the fact that this country has the largest deficit in the European Union outside Ireland never fail to surprise me, although they probably should not surprise me. The measures we are taking are necessary to clean up that mess and to establish jobs and growth in the future.

[Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) (Con)]

T5. I am sure that Ministers can understand the disappointment of my constituents when Cadbury’s new owners stated their intention to move mass production abroad from the Summerdale plant near my constituency. In the light of this and of the dramatic decline in manufacturing employment over the past 13 years—down from 4.7 million jobs in 1997 to 2.6 million jobs now—what steps are they taking to support manufacturers in this country?

[Mr Gauke]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right to highlight the fact that we live in a globalised world and that businesses can choose where they locate their activity. That is why we are introducing substantial cuts in corporation tax, from 28% to 24%. I was delighted to read this morning that the previous Chancellor was an enthusiast for reducing corporation tax—although we did not see so much evidence of that when he was in power. The fact is that the Budget proposals will benefit all sectors of society, including manufacturing, and we will see £13 billion more investment over the next few years as a consequence of those measures.

[Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)]

Many businesses in the north-west saw the value of regional development agencies and were very much opposed to their abolition. What consultation was carried out with business leaders on the proposal to abolish RDAs?

[Danny Alexander]

Of course we have invited groups involving local authorities and local businesses to submit proposals for the establishment of local enterprise partnerships in the hon. Gentleman’s area and across the country to replace the regional development agencies. Local businesses will be very involved in those and will help to lead them. To judge from the earlier exchange involving other Members from the north-west, it seems there has been a positive welcome for those steps.

[Richard Harrington (Watford) (Con)]

T6. In view of the importance of this issue to Opposition Members and their colleagues in the other place, can the Minister confirm that there are no plans for the Government to introduce VAT on the sale of hardback books?

[Mr Gauke]

I can assure my hon. Friend of that, and that newspapers—there was a very interesting one this morning—will not have VAT imposed on them either.

[Gloria De Piero (Ashfield) (Lab)]

Mums in my constituency who work part time in the public sector and earn, say, £11,000 or £12,000 a year are telling me that their pay is to be frozen, so far from low-paid workers being protected, as was promised, it seems they are going to be hit the hardest, because that pay freeze is pro rata. Can the Chief Secretary confirm that and tell me how many low-paid part-time public servants will be affected?

[Danny Alexander]

We have announced a pay policy that involves a pay freeze for people earning above £21,000 a year. People earning below £21,000 a year will have a pay rise of at least £250.

[Kevin Brennan]

Pro rata.

[Danny Alexander]

That pay rise will be pro rata, but people will benefit from the changes to tax credits, for example, and the significant increase in the child tax credit for those with children. That will help to ensure that many of the people with children in the hon. Lady’s constituency whom she is describing will not be driven into poverty, as they were in many instances were under the previous Government.

[Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con)]

T7. I and I am sure many other Members have received many representations from Equitable Life policyholders who felt very shabbily treated by the last Government. Can the Minister give me some assurance that under the new coalition Government, they will treated a little more equitably?

[The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr Mark Hoban)]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. A large number of Equitable Life policyholders are very angry about how they were treated by the previous Government. We have committed to setting up an independent, fair and transparent payments scheme, further information on which will be presented to the House later this month.

[Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/Co-op)]

The Economic Secretary, the Chief Secretary’s Front-Bench colleague, referred to the establishment of the Office for Budget Responsibility as a welcome step forward for transparency. In the interests of transparency, could the Chief Secretary tell me precisely when he saw the revised unemployment figures produced by the OBR?

[Danny Alexander]

The revised unemployment figures were published by the OBR on the Wednesday morning. The figures were circulated in the normal way, as happens with the Office for National Statistics, the day before in the Treasury. That is when I saw the documentation that was published. The requirements for confidentiality that apply to ONS figures also apply to OBR figures.

[Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD)]

T8. The Chancellor took the difficult decision to increase VAT to deal with the dire economic legacy of the previous Labour Government. Will the Minister commit to reviewing the increase in VAT once this coalition Government have dealt with the deficit and got the economy back on its feet?

[Mr Gauke]

I can tell my hon. Friend that he is right; this decision was necessary and unavoidable. The intention is to get the public finances under control over the course of this Parliament. We will debate what we do at the end of that process nearer the time, when we will work out what we will do with the proceeds of growth.

[Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)]

In a speech last night to the bankers, the Financial Secretary referred to the Government’s proposals on a financial activities tax. Is it the Government’s intention that that sort of proposed legislation is just in reserve in case the bankers are too generous with themselves with bonuses, or are the Government determined to introduce such a tax? Why not go further, with a full financial transactions tax?

[Mr Hoban]

The Government are committed to tackling unacceptable bonuses in the financial sector, and we have put forward a series of proposals on that. We have talked about increasing the disclosure of remuneration, we have asked the Financial Services Authority to examine ways in which the link between risk and remuneration can be investigated, and we are taking forward work on the financial activities tax. Also, we have today published a consultation on a bank levy, which will raise an extra £2.5 billion in revenue from the banks.

[Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con)]

T10. Average wages in my constituency are below the national average, so the rise in the income tax threshold announced in the Budget was most welcome. Can the Minister please give an assurance that he will maintain a focus on increasing the personal tax threshold, as the prospect of being taken out of tax altogether is far more appealing than the prospect that the previous Government offered, which was the non-stop filling in of forms to claim back just a fraction of the money that people had already earned?

[Mr Gauke]

I can confirm to my hon. Friend that it remains our long-term objective to raise the income tax threshold to £10,000, and we have made significant progress.

[Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)]

Can the Chief Secretary tell the House whether he thinks it is completely ethical for the definition of “unemployment” to be changed just before Prime Minister’s Question Time and for that be made public without telling the media that that was the case? Would he comment on the fact that the person who did this was seconded from a hedge fund and is therefore not independent? Will the Chief Secretary therefore confirm that that was the reason why this person had to resign and bring scorn—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I must limit the hon. Gentleman to two questions—one answer will suffice.

[Danny Alexander]

The Office for Budget Responsibility is wholly independent. Decisions of the sort that the hon. Gentleman has described are a matter for the OBR to take on its own initiative—that is what having an independent body means.

[Nicky Morgan (Loughborough) (Con)]

The issue of business start-ups and supporting small companies has been mentioned this afternoon, but many of them are finding it very difficult to access bank financing. I was wondering how the Budget proposals will assist them, because growing the private sector is essential to improving our economy.

[Mr Hoban]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right about the importance of banks being in a position to lend in order to encourage the recovery. That is why in the Budget we announced an extension of the enterprise finance guarantee scheme by a further £200 million to enable the banks to lend to small businesses. We will be publishing a paper later this month on business finance, which, again, will put forward ideas about how we can continue to sustain the recovery by ensuring that the banks are in a position to lend.

[Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op)]

Does not the revised forecast from the International Monetary Fund demonstrate yet again that the coalition’s Budget will hit growth and therefore jobs?

[Danny Alexander]

The consensus among international bodies is that growth will grow over the coming years based on the Government’s plans and that unemployment will fall. The hon. Lady might not yet have seen the OECD’s report on our economy today, which describes our Budget measures as “courageous and appropriate” and as “an essential starting point” for restoring growth and jobs in this economy. That is a position that the whole House should welcome and not criticise.

[Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con)]

I am delighted that the shadow Chancellor believes in transparency in Government. Is my right hon. Friend minded to publish the position papers prepared by the Treasury in respect of the previous Government’s plans to increase VAT before the election?

[Danny Alexander]

It is striking that the one party that had a plan to increase VAT before the election—to 18% or even 19%, according to the account in one book serialised today—did not say so at the election. I am not sure that it would be appropriate for us to publish documents that were worked up for the previous Chancellor—I am not sure that that would be in line with the conventions—but the hon. Gentleman has made his point very effectively.

[Mr Speaker]

Last but never least, I call Mr Dennis Skinner.

[Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab)]

Has the Treasury done a calculation of the number of construction jobs that will be lost as a result of not building 700 schools? Does that not prove that public sector cuts equal private sector misery? Get that into your head.

[Danny Alexander]

The thing I have got into my head is that the plans laid down by the previous Government for this programme, particularly in the Department for Education, were among the most irresponsible financial planning carried out by that Government in their entirety. When that Government were planning to cut capital spending in half and increase the spending on this programme, taking no account of the pressures in primary schools, for example, that was pure irresponsibility. My friend the Secretary of State for Education has made the right decision on this matter. I know that it is painful in many constituencies, but this is one of many things that the Opposition should be apologising for, not criticising.

Counter-terrorism and Security Powers

Tuesday 13th July 2010 Commons Chamber

15:31

[The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)]

With permission, Mr Speaker, I shall make a statement on the review of counter-terrorism and security powers.

As I have said to the House before, the first duty of Government is to protect the public, but that duty must never be used as a reason to ride roughshod over our civil liberties—and that is what the previous Government did on far too many occasions. This Government are different. We have already introduced legislation to get rid of identity cards once and for all; we have already declared our intention to bring forward a freedom Bill later this year; and just last week I announced interim restrictions on the use of stop-and-search powers under section 44 of the Terrorism Act 2000.

Today, as promised in the coalition agreement, I am announcing an urgent review of counter-terrorism and security powers. The review will consider six key powers: control orders; section 44 stop-and-search powers and the use of terrorism legislation in relation to photography; the use of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 by local authorities and access to communications data more generally; extending the use of deportations with assurances in a manner that is consistent with our legal and human rights obligations; measures to deal with organisations that promote hatred or violence; and the detention of terrorist suspects before charge.

Those are the most controversial and sensitive powers. In particular, the issue of pre-charge detention has been the subject of considerable debate in the House, and tomorrow we will consider whether to renew the current detention limit for a further six months. That will provide us with sufficient time to look carefully at pre-charge detention in the review and to explore how we can reduce the period of detention below 28 days. The review will also help to inform us on what additional safeguards are needed in the proposed asset freezing Bill, which the Treasury will introduce shortly.

The Government’s work on the use of intercept as evidence in court and the modernisation of our interception capabilities will be done separately and will not form part of the review. The review will be conducted by the Home Office with the full involvement of the police, security and intelligence agencies and other Government Departments, including those in Scotland and Northern Ireland. I want the review to be conducted as openly and transparently as possible. I have asked Liberty to contribute to the review, and it has said that it would be delighted to do so. I am keen to involve other civil liberty and community organisations and, as with other reviews, I would urge anyone with an interest to submit their views to the Home Office.

To ensure independent oversight of the review, I have asked the noble and learned Lord Macdonald of River Glaven, the former Director of Public Prosecutions, to make sure that the work is conducted properly, that all the relevant options have been considered and that the recommendations of the review are not only fair but seen to be fair. That role is distinct from the excellent work that is already being undertaken by the noble and learned Lord Carlile of Berriew in his statutory role as independent reviewer of terrorism legislation. The proposals made by Lord Carlile will be fully considered as part of the review and I know that he welcomes the additional independent perspective that Lord Macdonald will provide on these issues. Any legislative amendments that result from the review will of course be subject to review by the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation. I have ordered that the review should be completed as quickly as possible, because it is important that the police and the security and intelligence agencies are able to do their vital work with certainty and confidence. I will report back to Parliament on the outcome of the review after the summer recess.

Before I finish, I want to make one thing absolutely clear. In correcting the mistakes of the previous Government, we are doing just that. We are not criticising or castigating members of the police or of the security and intelligence services. They do their work with bravery, patriotism and a strong sense of duty, and I know the whole House will want to join me in paying tribute to them. The review will enable this Government to put right the failures of the last Government and, in so doing, restore the ancient civil liberties that should be synonymous with the name of our country. I commend this statement to the House.

[Alan Johnson (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) (Lab)]

I am grateful to the Home Secretary for giving me early sight of her statement. It is important to recall that when the Terrorism Bill received its Third Reading in November 2005, it had all-party support, so both parties to the coalition Government supported the bulk of the legislation that will now be reviewed. Two things characterised that debate, which came a few months after the horror and carnage of 7/7. The first was the realisation that no change in Government policy would remove the UK from al-Qaeda’s firing line and that the only response to the threat was to contest and then defeat it. The second was the extraordinary lengths that were taken to proceed on the basis of consensus, not just with the then shadow Home Secretary, the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis), and the Lib Dem spokesman Mark Oaten, but with the Select Committee on Home Affairs and the Joint Committee on Human Rights.

The threat that was faced then has not diminished. The Prime Minister put it succinctly in his statement of 6 July, when he said:

“As we meet in the relative safety of this House today, let us not forget this: as we speak, al-Qaeda operatives in Yemen are meeting in secret to plot attacks against us; terrorists are preparing to attack our forces in Afghanistan; the Real IRA is planning its next strike against security forces in Northern Ireland; and rogue regimes are still trying to acquire nuclear weapons.”—[Official Report, 6 July 2010; Vol. 513, c. 178.]

Can the Home Secretary confirm that the review is not being held to scale down the powers needed to address a diminishing threat, but is far from that? What is the latest estimate of the number of terror suspects actively engaged in complex plots and can she tell us how many such plots have been disrupted since 7/7?

The review must surely be held in the context of how those powers are working on the ground. In that context, will she provide information, if necessary on Privy Council terms, as Charles Clarke did in 2005, to allow Her Majesty’s Opposition to be fully conversant with the backdrop to this review? Will she ensure that the same spirit of consensus-seeking takes place in reviewing anti-terrorism legislation that characterised the approach to the Terrorism Act 2006?

The Home Secretary’s statement contained the immature and partisan attacks on the previous Government that are becoming rather tiresome and that are unworthy of a debate of this seriousness. Will she tell me in what way she considers the previous Government to have ridden roughshod over civil liberties on control orders, deportation with assurances, dealing with organisations that promote hatred or violence, or on the detention of terrorist suspects before charge?

On the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000, and in relation to some of the most widely spread myths about RIPA, is she aware that the interception of communications commissioner, Sir Paul Kennedy, concluded his latest annual report by saying that

“no evidence has emerged from the inspections which have been conducted during the last three years to indicate communications data is being used to investigate offences of a trivial nature, such as dog fouling or littering”?

What are the terms of reference for the review? They are not in the statement. Is it to be held purely in the context of civil liberties, or will it have a wider remit? We believe that it should. Does the Home Secretary think the time scale long enough to do justice to the issues under review? Given the fact that the Olympics are fast approaching, will they be a factor in the deliberations?

Given our joint desire to overcome the practical difficulties that prevent the use of intercept as evidence in our courts, given that 28-day detention has to be reapproved by Parliament each year and given that control orders are subject to annual report by the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, what further safeguards does the Home Secretary believe may be necessary? I would on this occasion appreciate some answers, given the importance of the subject.

I worry about the Government’s position on counter-terrorism. They admonish senior counter-terrorism police officers for daring to discuss in a closed meeting with colleagues the implication of a 25% cut in their funding. They refuse to give the police and the security services the same assurances on funding as they provide for the Department for International Development. They plan to diminish important weapons in the fight against crime and terrorism such as the DNA database and CCTV. The balance between collective security and individual freedom has to be carefully struck under the ever-changing and constantly evolving threat of international terrorism, but this review appears to be about one side of that balance.

Liberal Democrats should remember the words of John Stuart Mill, who said:

“All that makes existence valuable to anyone depends on the enforcement of restraints upon the actions of other people.”

The Government should remember that the slow creep of complacency is a phrase often used to describe the erosion of civil liberties. It is equally applicable to our vulnerability to terrorist attack.

[Mrs May]

Of all the things that I have seen in the couple of months since I became Home Secretary, the thing that has most struck me and surprised me has been the complete unwillingness of the Labour party to recognise what much of the counter-terrorism legislation that it introduced, and on occasions the misuse of that legislation, have done to civil liberties in this country. It has surprised me because I hoped that, in opposition, the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson) and his colleagues would have taken the opportunity to sit back and look at their records in government and wonder why in the past few years so many people, including the Conservative and Liberal Democrat parties, have been raising questions about the counter-terrorism legislation that the previous Government introduced. I am sorry that the right hon. Gentleman has not seen fit to use the time in opposition so far to undertake that exercise.

In the counter-terrorism review, we are looking at precisely the balance that the right hon. Gentleman talks about between collective security and individual freedom. We want to ensure that we strike the right balance between collective security and individual freedom and not the wrong balance that we believe the previous Government introduced in a number of areas.

The right hon. Gentleman asked for some statistics. I can tell him that 235 people were convicted of terrorism-related offences between 11 September 2001 and 31 December 2009, and a further 22 defendants were awaiting trial as at 31 December 2009. For the 28 terrorism-related trials completed in the 12 months to the end of last year, 93% were convicted, with just over half pleading guilty, and convictions included six life sentences. At the end of December 2009, 131 people were in prison for terrorism, extremist offences or charges relating to terrorism or extremism.

I am certainly not making light of the threat that exists in this country and, as the right hon. Gentleman acknowledged, nor did my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister when he came to the House to make his statement on detainees and the publication of guidance to our security services. We recognise the level of threat in the United Kingdom, but I say to the right hon. Gentleman and members of the Labour party that our fight against those threats is not aided by legislation that is misused or that people feel encroaches on civil liberties.

The right hon. Gentleman asked whether I could suggest legislation in which the Labour Government had ridden roughshod over civil liberties and then said they had not done so in relation to the detention of terror suspects before charging. I have to say to him that trying to introduce 90 days of pre-charge detention was indeed riding roughshod over our civil liberties. The review will look to ensure that our counter-terrorism legislation is appropriate to the level of threat and provides our police and our security and intelligence agencies with the powers that they need to combat that threat, while ensuring that we can enjoy our ancient civil liberties.

[Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con)]

I welcome the review unreservedly and in particular the appointment of Lord Macdonald to assist with it. That is a very good sign indeed.

However, may I raise with my right hon. Friend two questions that arise from what she has just said? First, she listed the six items that will be reviewed and I hope that at some point someone will look in aggregate at the overall effect of an authoritarian approach to terrorism, which itself creates a response in terms of radicalisation. Secondly, on a more tactical basis, my right hon. Friend said that she wants the review to be open and transparent and that she wants to involve Liberty. At least one organisation has approached me to say that it has been unable to find out from the Home Office how it can make submissions to the review. Will she make sure that that is dealt with promptly?

[Mrs May]

I thank my right hon. Friend for his comments about the review. I will of course ensure that information is available from the Home Office as to how organisations and others can make comments as part of their submissions to the review.

I take the point that it is important to look at the collective impact of legislation. We will be looking at the six individual areas, but as part of that process we shall look at the overall impact of legislation. It is that balance that is so important for us to achieve—ensuring that the legislation is not brought into disrepute because of the overall impact or because it is felt that it encroaches on important liberties.

[Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)]

Every new Government are entitled to review legislation in the way that the Home Secretary has suggested, and the Select Committee looks forward to seeing her on Thursday morning when we shall have the opportunity to explore these issues with her. I am grateful to her for agreeing to see us at such short notice.

May I press the Home Secretary on resources? The threat is still severe. Mr Yates has made it very clear that as far as he is concerned there will be cuts of £150 million to the counter-terrorism budget, and I understand that Home Office officials saw his speech before he delivered it to the closed session of the Association of Chief Police Officers last Thursday. Can the right hon. Lady confirm that it is the Government’s intention to ensure that the counter-terrorism unit, and units all over the country, have the resources they need to fight terrorism and that there will be no cut to that budget?

[Mrs May]

I of course want to ensure that those involved in counter-terrorism, whether in the police or other agencies, are able to undertake the job we ask them to do and which they do diligently for us day in, day out. On spending cuts, however, no specific figure has been set. As the right hon. Gentleman will be aware, a spending review is under way in which Departments are looking at their expenditure and it is right that the Home Office does as other Departments do. I must tell the right hon. Gentleman and others on the Opposition Benches that I did not want to be in the position of looking at spending cuts in the Home Office and other Departments. The reason why we have to do so is that, in the words of the last Labour Chief Secretary to the Treasury, there is no money left. And whose fault is that? It is the Labour party’s.

[Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)]

I commend the Home Secretary for recognising that the very real threat to the safety of the people of this country is hindered, not helped, when people perceive that their civil liberties as well as their safety are threatened. Using terrorism powers to bundle people out of the Labour party conference, to stop people reading out names in Whitehall, or indeed to deal with the Icelandic banking crisis demonstrated how authoritarianism had taken over from rational assessment of what we need to defeat terrorism.

[Mrs May]

The right hon. Gentleman makes an extremely valid point. It is extremely useful, in the context of this statement and the questions and answers on it, to remind people of what happened at the Labour party conference, and what an abuse of terrorism legislation that was.

[Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab)]

The Home Secretary’s statement refers to a review of powers to deal with organisations that promote hatred or violence. Does she recognise that legislation alone is never sufficient to tackle complex issues of this nature? Will she look very closely at the current Department for Communities and Local Government review of the Prevent programme, which is very much designed to make communities part of the solution, not part of the problem? This is a complex, sophisticated and difficult area to tackle, but unless she makes communities part of the solution, we will not make the progress that we need to make.

[Mrs May]

The right hon. Lady makes a valid point. There is a role for legislation, but of course there is a role for activity beyond legislation, and working with communities is an important part of that. The Home Office is indeed working with the Department for Communities and Local Government to assess the Prevent strategy, and to consider how that can best be focused on its proper aims. Part of it is the community-building that she has described, in addition to its counter-terrorism aspect.

[Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)]

At a meeting earlier today, the American anti-terrorist expert Dr Marc Sageman expressed his surprise that we do not use a method that is found to be very effective in the United States and other countries at deterring people from joining terrorist movements, which is to publish in full the transcripts of the trials that are held when plots are uncovered and disrupted. That would be a very effective mechanism, and it could also lead to television re-enactments which would show that far from these people being 10 feet tall and great warriors, they are often very banal, very stupid and very deserving of our contempt.

[Mrs May]

My hon. Friend has made an interesting point; it is not something that I had looked at. I am perfectly willing to look at it, if he would like to send me some information. He will have noticed that my right hon. and learned Friend the Lord Chancellor and Justice Secretary has been present and will have heard the point that he made.

[Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP)]

Government’s first responsibility is the protection and safeguarding of the law-abiding community from acts and threats of terrorism. It is not enough to praise our security forces and services; they need to be allowed the tools and the freedom to do their job. Will the Home Secretary assure the House that no action will be taken that will compromise that responsibility, just to promote a political agenda or get something over the Opposition?

[Mrs May]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his question, and recognise that, given the experience that he has, ensuring that the police and others have the proper powers to combat terrorism is extremely important. In responding to him, may I take the opportunity of paying tribute to the work of the Police Service of Northern Ireland, particularly last night and yesterday in Northern Ireland, given the difficulties and the troubles that arose in relation to a parade. I assure him that I fully recognise that the first duty of Government is to protect their citizens, and it is against that background that we will be conducting the review.

[Patrick Mercer (Newark) (Con)]

In recognition of the shadow Home Secretary’s last question, I do not believe that there is any complacency in countering terrorism from this Government. However, there might be a temptation to concentrate too much, or exclusively, on the threat from Islamist fundamentalism. Will the Home Secretary assure me that the grave dangers from Irish republicanism will also be dealt with and reviewed as part of the process?

[Mrs May]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his question. He makes an important and valid point. I can assure him that we are well aware of the increased threat that arises from dissident republicanism. That is why resources have been looked at in dealing with it in Northern Ireland. We are very conscious that there are diverse terrorist threats to the UK—they are not all from one group or one type of person.

[Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)]

I welcome the review and was slightly surprised that we are still, apparently, going to renew the 28-day provision tomorrow. May I draw the Home Secretary’s attention to the fourth area she identified—looking into extending the use of deportations with assurances? Could she give me two assurances: first, that no one will be deported while the review is going on, and secondly, that there will be no consideration whatever of a continuing regime that allows people to be deported to countries that have not signed the relevant United Nations declarations, particularly the conventions on torture?

[Mrs May]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for focusing on that issue. He asked me to ensure that there were no deportations during the review—a rather wide commitment —but the purpose of his question was to focus on deportations with assurances. Of course, the issue arises because we have had a number of cases here in the UK where individuals have been identified as posing a terrorist threat to the UK, but because of the legal interpretations of our duties and requirements under the European convention on human rights, it has not been felt possible to deport those individuals to certain countries. We wish to continue to work with a number of other countries to ensure that it will be possible to deport people with assurances that they will not be subject to torture.

[Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con)]

On the point that the Home Secretary has just made about legal interpretation, has she taken note of the fact that many senior members of the judiciary, including the Lord Chief Justice, have raised serious concerns relating to the manner in which the convention on human rights has been interpreted by the Court in Strasbourg and that, for practical purposes, the balance between protecting civil liberties on the one hand and the security of the people on the other must be maintained? Therefore, the review is welcome, but she must take into account the fact that many senior members of the judiciary do not regard this as xenophobic legal nonsense.

[Mrs May]

I am happy to take into account the fact that many members of the judiciary have different views on the issues that we will review. Of course, as I said earlier, we aim to get the right balance between ensuring that we can protect members of the public and ensuring our national security, while maintaining our civil liberties.

[Michael Dugher (Barnsley East) (Lab)]

Does the review not send out completely the wrong signals to the public and, indeed, to those who would jeopardise the safety and security of the public? Would the Government’s time not be better spent backing the police and the security services with the resources and powers that they require?

[Mrs May]

I assure the hon. Gentleman that we do indeed back the police and our security services. As I said in my statement, they do a very important job for us day in, day out, often at some risk to themselves, and we pay tribute to all the work that they do for us. But that work is not aided by a situation where many members of the public feel that certain pieces of legislation have been introduced and abused. I think that, in fact, a former Labour Home Secretary, Jacqui Smith, referred to the snooping tendencies of local authorities under RIPA. Such things do not aid the police in the work that they have to do to protect us on a daily basis.

[Paul Uppal (Wolverhampton South West) (Con)]

May I welcome the review announced by the Home Secretary today and elaborate on that? Opposition Members have spoken about how legislation was introduced under the previous Government. Often, that was easily done by arguing that it was what the security forces requested. Returning to the point made by the hon. Member for Barnsley East (Michael Dugher), it is easy to take that prosaic approach. I welcome the approach taken today; it shows a holistic and encompassing view, which promotes the fact that we in the Chamber and the Executive take these decisions for reasons of collective security against individual freedom, rather than taking such a prosaic approach.

[Mrs May]

My hon. Friend makes an extremely valid point. It is the job of politicians and the Government to ensure that we maintain the appropriate balance and that our counter-terrorism legislation is proportionate and focused. It is indeed the job of the Government not simply to accept every suggestions that is made to them, but to judge the value of those suggestions and decide accordingly.

[Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) (Lab)]

As one of the group of MPs who originally seconded the amendment in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall North (Mr Winnick) that called for 28 days instead of 90 days, may I point out to the right hon. Lady that there was never any magic formula about 28 days—it was simply 62 days better than 90 days? I am pleased that there will be a review of this issue and that the former Director of Public Prosecutions will have an opportunity to consider that figure. If indeed he recommends 14 days, I hope that the right hon. Lady will stick by that recommendation.

[Mrs May]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady, both for the action that she took previously to ensure that we did not go through with 90 days and for the point that she has made. My view is clear: we need to consider how we can reduce from 28 days. The debate tomorrow will be about the extension of the 28-day provision for six months, which gives us time to conduct the review properly, alongside all the other issues on counter-terrorism legislation that we are considering, so that we can look at that in a balanced and proportionate way.

[Mr Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con)]

In welcoming the statement, may I remind my right hon. Friend that when the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act was going through the House, Conservatives and Liberal Democrats made common cause in opposing the careless way in which the then Government wanted to give powers of data-mining for communications data and surveillance to a wide range of bodies, such as local authority waste departments and the Royal Parks constabulary? The issues that were looked at, such as dog fouling and littering, went far beyond what most people would consider reasonable. Will she carefully examine that Act and try to ensure that we do not have an unreasonable aggregation of powers that brings security into disrepute?

[Mrs May]

I thank my hon. Friend for the points that he has made. He played a very important part in the debate about that legislation when it was going through the House, and he raised exactly those points—as part of a coalition before the coalition, if I can describe it as such. We will, indeed, look carefully at the Act. Those powers have been added to over time, and as a result brought the matter into disrepute.

[Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)]

I, too, very much welcome the statement by the Home Secretary, who is absolutely right to roll back the anti-civil libertarian state that the previous Labour Government established. I accept that the review will start with the presumption of reducing the 28-day limit, but does she have in mind an appropriate number of days for pre-charge detention?

[Mrs May]

Personally, I was always in favour of 14 days, but the whole point of a review is to look at what the appropriate period should be, and I do not wish to pre-empt the review’s decision or the information with which it will come forward.

[Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD)]

The review must be totally transparent, so can the Home Secretary confirm that she will publish its full terms of reference? Will she also state today that tomorrow’s renewal of the 28 day pre-charge detention period, if it proceeds, will be the last?

[Mrs May]

I am happy to ensure that the terms of reference are available to hon. Members. As I said in my statement, the six-month extension of the 28-day pre-charge detention period will enable us to consider that period as part of the review, and to explore how we can reduce the detention period to below 28 days.

[Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) (Lab)]

Does the Home Secretary accept how much I—as somebody who voted against both 90 days and 42 days, and for 28 days only because, as my hon. Friend the Member for Islington South and Finsbury (Emily Thornberry) said, it was 62 days less than 90 days —welcome the review? It is long overdue.

[Mrs May]

I am very grateful to the hon. Lady for her comments. She was indeed another Member in the battle against the 90 days, which we all felt was government authoritarianism gone mad.

[Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Aylesford) (Con)]

Under the previous Government, a photographer from Medway was arrested in Chatham high street under section 44 stop-and-search powers, and he and fellow photographers from Medway will welcome today’s announcement from the Home Secretary. Will she assure the House that any future revision of anti-terror legislation will strike the right balance between protecting the public and safeguarding the rights of individuals?

[Mrs May]

I am happy to give that assurance to my hon. Friend. She may have noticed that in my statement I specifically said that we would look at the issue of photographers and stop-and-search powers. It is one issue that has been brought home forcibly to me. I have had constituency cases of people who have been stopped under those powers and been concerned about it, and I have received a number of representations from Members of this House, and indeed of another place, about those problems.

[Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)]

In the interests of promoting civil liberties and the principles of human rights while recognising the need to reduce terrorism, will the Secretary of State indicate the nature of the involvement with intelligence agencies and Government Departments in Northern Ireland?

[Mrs May]

I am happy to confirm that, as I said in my statement, we will of course talk to agencies and Government Departments in Northern Ireland. The hon. Lady will have noticed the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland in the Chamber listening to the statement, and he is here so that we can ensure that the power that we obtain as a result of the review, and the exercise of that power, is appropriate throughout the United Kingdom.

[Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con)]

Although the major threat to our security currently comes from militant Islamic groups, younger members of whom have been tragically brainwashed, I would like to ask a question based on the Muslim population I have in my constituency —some 1,500 people, the vast majority of whom lead decent, quiet and law-abiding lives. However, the misuse of anti-terror legislation and the Islamophobic comment in the press produce an atmosphere of insecurity. Does my right hon. Friend agree that in the end, this leads to a greater threat to our security, because it is essential that our security forces have at their disposal contacts within the Islamic community for intelligence purposes; and will she, in the spirit of transparency, agree to involve moderate Muslim groups in her consultation?

[Mrs May]

As I am sure that my hon. Friend will have noticed, I said in my statement that we are hoping that a number of groups will be able to be involved in the review. I fully take her point that it is important that we get the balance between security and civil liberties right. Otherwise, such measures can not only bring the legislation into disrepute but cause some people to feel insecure and to feel that what the Government are doing is simply being done against them. That is not the case. We need to look across the board at our counter-terrorism legislation, always having in mind the need to ensure that we get that balance right.

[Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)]

As someone who, in the last Parliament, opposed from the Government Benches many of the previous Government’s measures in legislating disproportionately and, I believe, counter-productively on counter-terrorism, may I ask the Secretary of State to explain why, in the context of this review, the parallel powers in the Justice and Security (Northern Ireland) Act 2007 should not also be reviewed at the same time?

Will the Home Secretary give us some idea of Lord Macdonald’s role in oversight of the review? We are told that it is a Home Office review that will be conducted in liaison with other Departments but that Lord Macdonald will have oversight. Will people submitting to the review have engagement with Lord Macdonald, engagement with the Home Office, or both?

[Mrs May]

Anybody wishing to submit comments or proposals to the review will do so to the Home Office. Lord Macdonald’s role will be in reviewing how the review has been undertaken, to ensure that it has been done properly and that all options have been properly considered.

As for the 2007 Act, when I spoke here last week about section 44 of the Terrorism Act 2000 and the interim changes that I am making to the guidance on that, I was conscious of a number of contributions from the Opposition Benches, including, I think, from the hon. Gentleman himself, encouraging me to ensure that the Police Service of Northern Ireland had appropriate powers, some of which are in the very Act that he cited.

[Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD)]

I thank the Home Secretary for her statement, the review and the attitude that is being taken to it; that is very welcome. However, I am still disappointed that she did not allow the provision for 28 days’ detention without charge to lapse during the period of the review. May I follow up the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake), which did not get a clear response in her statement or her answer? Will she pledge not to introduce another 28-day detention period at the end of the six months, or is she trying to maintain that option—in order, perhaps, to ask us yet again to vote for 28 days’ detention?

[Mrs May]

The hon. Gentleman is encouraging me to pre-empt the result of the review. I am absolutely clear, as I said, that the review will look at the pre-charge detention period with a view to reducing it from 28 days. However, I do not want to pre-empt the result of the review, so, tempting though it might be, I would simply refer him to the comments that I made earlier.

[Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab)]

I welcome the Home Secretary’s review of the counter-terrorism legislation. Although I was not in Parliament when this matter was debated, I was certainly campaigning against that piece of legislation. May I ask the Home Secretary to be tempted, and to bring in tomorrow a reduction from 28 to perhaps seven or 14 days?

[Mrs May]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her support for the review, but I am afraid that I am going to give her the same answer as I gave to two of my Liberal Democrat hon. Friends—that I do not want to pre-empt the result of the review. We will have our debate tomorrow, and then, when the review reports, we will be able to look at its proposals.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

I congratulate the Home Secretary on making her statement—and on allowing us to hear it in the House first, rather than in the media. Can she tell the House why intercept evidence is not being considered in the review, but is being considered separately?

[Mrs May]

I am happy to do so. The previous Government set up a process to consider intercept evidence, and a Privy Council group is in existence to do that. In fact, the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) is a member of that group. I want to talk to it about how we can take that issue forward in the best and most appropriate way, and I think it is better to do that over time rather than shoehorn it into this review.

[Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)]

We had a previous Government who made legislation for the sake of legislation: in the past 13 years we had more legislation than in the previous 100 years. With regard to point two in the review mentioned by the Secretary of State—photography and terrorism—will she receive representations from the president of the Kent photographic organisation about how badly photographers have been affected by the legislation?

[Mrs May]

I would be very happy to receive those representations from my hon. Friend.

[Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)]

A warrant is needed to enter my home, but there is not similar judicial oversight in relation to RIPA, in particular on communications access at my electronic home, or whether I am followed on the school run or my garbage is looked through. Will the review particularly consider judicial oversight of RIPA powers?

[Mrs May]

The review will specifically consider the use of RIPA powers by local authorities, which has been a key matter; people have been extremely concerned about the powers that are available and how those powers have been used. As I said earlier, it was a former Labour Home Secretary, I believe, who referred to those powers as a “dustbin Stasi”.

[Mrs Helen Grant (Maidstone and The Weald) (Con)]

Does my right hon. Friend accept that the last Government got the balance between security, unlimited stop-and-search powers and liberty completely and utterly wrong?

[Mrs May]

I think they did, and as I said earlier in response to the shadow Home Secretary, I am only sorry that they have not taken the opportunity of being in opposition to think again.

Points of Order

Tuesday 13th July 2010 Commons Chamber

16:12

[Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I always thought I was the employer of my members of staff, and I would be glad if you could confirm that. On Friday, one of my valued members of staff came to me in a state of agitation and said that he had just received a P45 through the post. I thought that if a P45 was to be issued, it was I who would issue it. It was not clear who did issue it, but some light has been thrown on the matter by the latest communication from the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority —issue 7 of its communications. Under the heading “P45s from the House of Commons”, it states:

“We are aware that the House of Commons has sent P45s to those staff members who were in receipt of ‘payments after leaving’ in the House of Commons June payroll. Please note that this has no effect on the contracts we hold for these employees, and neither yourselves nor the staff member concerned needs to take any further action, either with ourselves or with HMRC. If you do have any concerns, please contact the House of Commons directly.”

Who in the House of Commons should I contact, and am I the employer of my staff any more, or has that power somehow disappeared from me as well?

[Mr Speaker]

I am grateful to the right hon. Lady for saying what she has said, and in addition for giving me advance notice of a very real concern that she has. Strictly speaking, I am advised that it does not constitute a point of order, because it does not relate specifically to the procedure of the House, but that is not to say that it is not important, because it is. What I would say to the right hon. Lady, and indeed to the House, is that if she wishes to write to me with further details of this matter, it can be considered by the Speaker’s Committee for the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, and I would of course be minded to ensure that it was so considered.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Speaker]

We will take it in turns between the parties. Dr Lewis looks as though he is about to overflow —we must hear from him.

[Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)]

Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. I am glad that you made that wise choice, because this follows on from the previous point of order. I would like to say—if I can, within the rules of order—that most of these problems seem to flow from an impersonal approach by IPSA. I can advise hon. Members on both sides of the House that I have benefited from a degree of relenting on the part of IPSA, in that it has been willing to send a human being to meet and advise me, even in my own office—and, having spoken to human beings from IPSA, I have to say that they are very reasonable and decent people indeed. They ought to get out and about a bit more.

[Mr Speaker]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his point of order. With reference to the earlier part of his remarks, I would simply say that we are always interested, of course, to hear his advice, and that is what he has proffered today.

[Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. You will be aware of the great reliance that has been placed on the Afghan army in order to build a stable state in Afghanistan. The Government have given much credence to that strategy. We have heard today the tragic news of the further deaths of, and injuries to, British soldiers, allegedly at the hands of a member of the Afghan police. We have heard further evidence that there is no loyalty in this mercenary force to its own President and country, and certainly not to foreign Governments. Given our exit strategy, should today’s tragic events not be marked by a statement in the House? Have you been approached by a Minister about making such a statement?

[Mr Speaker]

The appropriateness or otherwise of a statement is not a matter for me to decide. The short answer to the hon. Gentleman’s question is that no Minister has given me any indication of an intention to make a statement. However, by virtue of using the device of a point of order, he has registered very clearly and on the record his views on this important matter, and I have a feeling it will have been heard here—and, indeed, in Newport.

[Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I very much welcome what you said in response to the right hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd), because you seemed to be intimating to the House that although it was not strictly a point of order—because it did not relate to the business of the House—it was important for Members to have an opportunity to raise matters concerning IPSA on the Floor of the House. Do I take it from your ruling, therefore, that we can reassert a degree of parliamentary control over IPSA by being allowed to raise its conduct with you directly in points of order?

[Mr Speaker]

The hon. Gentleman should not read into what I said any more than what I said. The right hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd) raised a point of importance and concern to her and, I am sure, others. In seeking to respond effectively to her attempted point of order, I simply drew attention to the fact that there was a means by which the issue could be considered. I have said what I have said. The Speaker’s Committee for the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority will be a forum in which matters of concern can be aired and addressed. It will not be beyond his ingenuity to make of that what he will.

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Have you had an opportunity to complete your deliberations on the matter I raised with you last week—the fact that under the House of Commons Disqualification Act 1975, only 95 Ministers may sit and vote in the House of Commons at any one time? At the beginning of last week there were only 95 Ministers, but then three Liberal Democrat Members, who I understand to be part of the Government, were appointed as Whips. That takes us above the 95 figure, so surely either they should not be allowed to sit and vote in the House of Commons, or—if they are now organising an operation separate from the Government—they should be sitting on the Opposition Benches, not on the Government Benches, or they should not be calling themselves Whips.

[Mr Speaker]

I have indeed inquired into the matter that the hon. Gentleman previously raised. I have completed what he generously described as my deliberations on the subject, and I have reached my conclusion. What is more, as he can tell, I am literally itching to share my conclusion both with him and with the House—although how he will feel when I have finished is a matter for speculation and conjecture. I am assured by the Liberal Democrat Chief Whip that the three hon. Members whom he has asked to work as party Whips are not members of the Government. On that basis, the hon. Gentleman’s concerns about the total number of Ministers on the Government payroll can be allayed. If—I emphasise the “if”—it is possible, as a result of this ruling, to put his mind at rest, I shall be especially gratified.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

Further to the point of order raised by the right hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd), Mr Speaker. Will we regularly have a chance in the Chamber to question a member of the Speaker’s Committee for IPSA on the issue that concerns so many in this House?

[Mr Speaker]

Some people do like to push it—as is becoming evident. This is a matter of concern, so what I would say to the hon. Gentleman is that consideration has been given to whether written and oral parliamentary questions should be capable of being tabled with a view to their being answered. If and when there is procedure for oral answers to be given, the hon. Gentleman will learn very quickly, because I know the determination and consistency with which he always studies the Order Paper.

If there are no further points of order, and the appetite has been satisfied, we now move to the presentation of Bills.

Bill Presented

Shared Parenting Orders Bill

Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)

Mr Brian Binley, supported by Dr Thérèse Coffey, Mr Douglas Carswell, Mr Philip Hollobone, Mr Christopher Chope, Mr Peter Bone, Mark Reckless, Caroline Dinenage, Mark Pritchard, Harriett Baldwin and Mr David Nuttall, presented a Bill to provide for the making of Shared Parenting Orders and to create a legal presumption that such Orders enhance the welfare of the child unless certain exceptions apply; and for connected purposes.

Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 17 June 2011, and to be printed (Bill 56).

Business without Debate

Tuesday 13th July 2010 Commons Chamber

Delegated Legislation

Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 118(6)),

Parliament

That the draft Parliamentary Standards Act (Staff Transfer) Order 2010, which was laid before this House on 26 May, be approved.—(Mr Newmark.)

Question agreed to.

delegated legislation (committees)

Motion made,

That the Motion in the name of Sir George Young relating to the Electoral Commission shall be treated as if it related to an instrument subject to the provisions of Standing Order No. 118 (Delegated Legislation Committees) in respect of which notice of a motion has been given that the instrument be approved.— (Mr Newmark.)

Hon. Members: Object.

Business of the House

Motion made,

That, notwithstanding the practice of the House as to the intervals between stages of Bills brought in upon Ways and Means Resolutions, more than one stage of the Finance Bill may be taken at any sitting of the House.—(Mr Newmark.)

Hon. Members: Object.

Flooding (Hull)

Tuesday 13th July 2010 Commons Chamber

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—(Mr Newmark.)

23:10

[Diana R. Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

I am very pleased to have secured this Adjournment debate this evening, three years after the flooding in Hull in 2007 that caused such havoc for my constituents. I remind the House that the flooding in Hull was caused by surface water flooding, that one in five homes were flooded, and that June 2007 was the wettest month recorded in Yorkshire since 1882.

I first pay tribute to all the local services in Hull that worked so hard for my constituents on the day of the flooding and in the months and years that followed. Many issues pertaining to the flooding are outstanding, but tonight, because of the limited time, I wish to explore just three. The first is the progress that has been made so far on legislation and new policy directions. The second is insurance. Thirdly, I will seek reassurance from the Minister about future funding for flood protection measures in my constituency.

I thought it right to start by examining the coalition agreement to see what the Government have to say about their plans for flooding protection. It states clearly:

“We will take forward the findings of the Pitt Review to improve our flood defences, and prevent unnecessary building in areas of high flood risk.”

I was pleased that Hull was quick off the mark after the floods and had a report produced by Professor Tom Coulthard at Hull university. We then had the national Pitt review. It is to the credit of the previous Labour Government that all 92 recommendations in the review were accepted and many implemented in the provisions of the Flood and Water Management Act 2010. I seek reassurance from the Minister that those provisions will be implemented as soon as possible. I also seek information about the possibility of the new coalition Government producing a water White Paper in the near future.

One of Pitt’s clear recommendations was on surface water management plans, suggesting that local authorities should become responsible for ensuring that arrangements were in place to assess and manage local flood risk from all sources, including surface water, and for developing a surface water management plan.

[Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con)]

I congratulate the hon. Lady on securing an Adjournment debate on this extremely important issue. Does she agree that the first stage of water management is to ensure that we avoid building not only on floodplains—I think that that is a common view—but anywhere where it will lead to the blocking of a watercourse or an increased risk of houses flooding?

[Diana R. Johnson]

The right hon. Gentleman is exactly right, and I believe there is support for that view throughout the House.

The surface water management plan in Hull, which will have an impact on the right hon. Gentleman’s constituency, will bring together the East Riding of Yorkshire, Hull city council, Yorkshire Water and the Environment Agency to put together a workable plan. A scoping exercise was undertaken, and the previous Government provided £250,000 to develop the plan further. This summer there will be consultation, including on an aqua green in my constituency in the Orchard Park and Greenwood area, adjacent to the Cottingham area, which the right hon. Gentleman represents. I understand that the aqua green, alongside the other provisions set out in the consultation, would cost about £20 million to implement across the city. I seek reassurance from the Minister tonight about the future of that funding.

[Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)]

I, too, congratulate the hon. Lady on securing the debate. I know that she has been a strong advocate for Hull during and since the flooding. While we are on the issue of surface water, I know that significant progress has been made, but the one point on which we do not seem to have made a great deal of progress is having a single number for residents to use to report all surface water flooding. That was a huge issue in Hull and the East Riding on the day of the floods, and we need more progress on it.

[Diana R. Johnson]

The hon. Gentleman is right, and I hope that the Minister will address that point.

I turn to the issue of small grants to households, which was an important issue in Kingston upon Hull North. The previous Labour Government gave £5 million as part of a grant scheme to enable local authorities to apply to help their residents to protect their homes through the use of flood boards and air brick covers. My local authority, Hull city council, did not apply for that money. There were several rounds of the grant, but there seemed to be confusion about whether the council could apply. I would like to hear from the Minister whether further grant money will be available and whether the conditions could be clearly laid out, so that, as I hope, my constituents can apply for that money through Hull city council.

It is appropriate to pay tribute to the work that Yorkshire Water has undertaken in my constituency by investing in the Bransholme pumping station, which failed in June 2007. It has put in additional pumping facilities, and extra capacity is currently being developed at the station’s lagoon. That is all to be welcomed, but further housing development is planned in the Bransholme area, so we need to keep an eye on whether we actually need a brand new pumping station in the years to come to meet the demand. Also, Yorkshire Water is looking to identify changes that might be necessary to the Humbercare sewerage system in Hull.

I turn to the issue of insurance, which has been an ongoing issue since 2007. The insurance industry has agreed to provide flood cover for most properties, but this is subject to the Government continuing to invest in flood risk management. I am aware of the statement of principles under which the insurance industry will provide insurance. That will run out in 2013. However, the Pitt report found that some people suffered from a hike in premiums and that excesses were much higher than before 2007. For example, Mr and Mrs Pearson lived in Kingswood and were insured with Norwich Union. In late December 2009, they were told that their premiums were to go up 33% and that their excess was to be £6,000. They were also told that if they personally commissioned an independent expert report specific to their property that took into account the flood defences put in place, the insurance company would look again at the insurance premium. They were told by the insurance company that HU7, where Kingswood is, was very likely to flood again, but it did not seem to know anything about the work being undertaken to protect the area. It was only once my office had intervened and provided information from Yorkshire Water that we could get the premium down.

I am concerned that insurance companies do not seem to be aware of what is happening in areas such as Kingston upon Hull North, and are not distinguishing between the risk from surface water flooding and river flooding. At the moment, insurance companies only have to provide insurance for householders who had insurance in 2007, so in Hull the insurance market is essentially closed. Personally, in my home, I have come across this: I cannot shop around in the insurance market, but can only go to the provider I had in 2007. It was found that many people affected by the floods did not have insurance. It is disappointing that although some local authorities have adopted a cheap insurance scheme for council tenants, this has not been taken up by my local authority. I am concerned, therefore, about the future for residents in my constituency and their ability to find affordable insurance in the future.

That leads me on to the point about the continuation of funding for flood protection. It is estimated that by 2035 we will need about £1 billion a year to protect ourselves from flooding. Liberal Democrat Hull city council has constantly asked for more money for Hull, particularly from the previous Government, to invest in flood defences in the city. I was dismayed today, therefore, to read in the media reports that it is likely that the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs will have its budget cut by 30% in the comprehensive spending review. I also understand that plans are being prepared by the coalition Government to privatise flood defence infrastructure, which means that the private sector will have to make up for the coalition Government’s cuts to the Labour Government’s plans for flood defences. Those private sector bodies would then be allowed to pass on the costs of flood protection to the people and businesses in the areas at risk of flooding, in the form of extra council tax, water rates and, perhaps, contributions from business.

Even most market economists would accept that there can be no greater example of a public good than flood defences. We surely cannot hand that responsibility over to the private sector to make a profit at the expense of communities at risk of flooding. Of course we want to encourage private investment and partnership to add to our flood protection work. However, handing flood defence to the private sector is not the way forward to protect us from flooding, and would be another burden on people and businesses in my constituency, which has some of the most deprived areas in the country. They have suffered from the recent recession and, I believe, will now suffer from the policies pursued by the coalition Government.

It appears that the Lib Dem-Conservative coalition is now preparing a flood tax on the victims of flooding in some of the most deprived parts of the country, which, in Yorkshire and the Humber, include Hull, Sheffield and Doncaster. I know that the Minister is a fair-minded gentleman. I hope that he can reassure me this evening that the money put forward by the Labour Government for flood defences will be protected and that DEFRA will stand up to the Treasury by delivering on the commitment made by the previous Government that people would not suffer by having a flood tax imposed on them—a commitment made not only to the people of Hull, but to the people of the rest of east Yorkshire and the other parts of the country that suffered in the flooding of 2007. I hope that he will also be able to answer some of the other questions that I have posed this evening.

23:20

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana R. Johnson) on securing this debate and on raising a number of points that I shall endeavour to answer as best I can. She and I both contributed to Sir Michael Pitt’s review, because we both represent constituencies that suffered from flooding and surface water flooding. I therefore understand entirely, as she will, the experience for those households affected; we probably both spent time in the days after those awful floods wading through houses that had been destroyed and meeting people whose lives had been completely turned upside down by the devastation. We were all impressed at the time by her concern for her constituents—a point echoed again this evening.

Let me address one point directly before I address any others. We have no plans to privatise flood defences, contrary to what was reported in the press today. That is not to say that we will not be looking, where appropriate, for contributions from beneficiaries to new schemes and other sorts of levy-funded operations, which we have discussed in the House in recent days and weeks, but I am happy to reassure the hon. Lady on her point as best I can.

The events of summer 2007 illustrated just how important the issues of flood management really are. Floods destroy homes and businesses, and pose serious risks to life. I know that the people of Hull understand that better than most, as do my constituents who suffered in the floods of that year. It remains the case that Kingston upon Hull and the surrounding areas have the greatest concentration of people and property at risk from flooding outside London.

Floods often happen quickly. The damage that they cause can take years to put right and, for those affected, can leave a lasting legacy of concern about it happening again. I am sure that the hon. Lady will have had the same experience as me, in that when there is heavy rain, the level of stress and trauma among our constituents who have been previously affected rises. We are only just starting to understand the implications that that has for people.

We often refer to extreme rainfall in terms of millimetres, but when we read about 20 Olympic-sized swimming pools of rain falling on Hull per second, the seriousness of the emergency becomes clear for all to see. It is therefore no surprise that Hull was the worst affected city in 2007, with 100 millimetres of rain in 24 hours, leading to the overwhelming of drainage systems and the flooding of 600 streets, nearly 9,000 homes, 1,300 businesses and more than 90% of the city’s schools. Nor is it surprising that the 2007 floods, which affected many areas, led to the largest recovery effort since the second world war. Specific recovery funding was provided by the previous Administration, and a successful UK application was made to the EU social fund. However, recovery on such a scale takes time. The previous Government took their last count in June 2009, at which time 48 households in Hull were still wholly or partly displaced from their homes.

The hon. Lady asked about the water White Paper. We will publish it in the summer of next year, and I very much hope that she will give us her thoughts on how it can be taken forward. It will look at a number of related issues, including, principally, the Walker and Cave reports, but if she feels that it should cover issues such as surface water flooding, I am certainly open to suggestions. I cannot answer her question on small grants now, but I can assure her that I will write to her and that I will see what can be done. I completely agree that very small grants—for air bricks, for example—can make a big difference when dealing with the technology of flood prevention. We want to encourage people to take responsibility for their own homes.

[Mr David Davis]

May I just ask the Minister a practical question? If he is going to write to the hon. Lady, could he write to everyone in east Yorkshire?

[Richard Benyon]

I can assure my right hon. Friend that I will certainly include him in the circulation of any such letter.

We all know that flooding happens, and that we cannot prevent it. Houses will get flooded. That is why the Government are determined to act on the hard lessons of past events, and why we have already made it clear that DEFRA’s priorities under the coalition Government will include taking forward the findings of the Pitt review to improve our flood defences and prevent the unnecessary building in areas of high flood risk.

No one can have any doubt about the coalition Government’s focus on deficit reduction, and DEFRA has already made a significant contribution to the savings that must be made in the current financial year. Flood management makes up a big proportion of the Department’s budget, but immunity from the new financial disciplines is simply not possible. Despite those financial pressures, however, we have decided that we should maintain an increase in the money that taxpayers spend on flood defences this year. Thoughtful planning will mean that that will not impact on the number of households that we protect. We will continue with that thoughtful planning in our work on what is, as everyone knows, a necessarily challenging strategic expenditure review process. Indeed, that is already happening.

One issue that we must take forward in that context—it is one that is important to the people of Hull and the surrounding area—is insurance. I recently met representatives of the Association of British Insurers to discuss how we could work together to ensure that we have a way forward on flood insurance and a road map to 2013, when the current agreement between the Government and the insurance industry, known as the statement of principles, ends. I am confident that the partnership that we have built with the ABI will help to ensure that appropriate and fair successor arrangements are in place after 2013.

On insurance, it is a matter of great regret that many of the people who are offered access to the cheap schemes often provided through local authorities or housing associations choose not to access them. I have raised this matter with the ABI and with housing associations, and I will continue to raise it across government if I have to. When such schemes can be included as part of people’s rent, I believe that there is a case for offering them as an opt-out, rather than an opt-in scheme. I know of a housing association that offers £5,000-worth of household insurance for 50p a week. It is perfectly possible for people to make a rational choice on this if they are given the necessary information. I think that an opt-out would be better than an opt-in, but that is a personal view. I shall, however, take the matter up with the ABI.

The hon. Lady talked about information being made available to insurers, and that is a crucial point. The Environment Agency is the guardian of the data on surface water management plans, and it is important that that information should be passed on to insurers. I have had exactly the same experience as the hon. Lady, where insurers just say that a house has been flooded, and as far as the insurance company or broker is concerned, no distinction is made between surface or fluvial water, or between whether any or a lot of remedial action has taken place. My local authority is the guardian of that information at the moment. I want the Environment Agency to be absolutely up front—there are no secrets. In fact, we want to make public the work that government in all its forms is doing, so let us make sure that the Environment Agency makes that data available as soon as possible, so that insurance can access it. I am completely with the hon. Lady on that.

[Diana R. Johnson]

Will the coalition Government support the flood summit this summer that the previous Labour Government had committed to holding? Will that happen? It seems a good opportunity to share information so that people understand what is happening.

[Richard Benyon]

Absolutely; it was an excellent idea brought forward by the previous Government and we will continue with it.

There is a lot of work in progress right now. I know that a working group has been set up in the Hull area to put together a multi-agency flood plan to define the roles and responsibilities of Government Departments and agencies for all flood risks. We have already heard from the hon. Lady about work by Hull city council on a surface water management plan. I understand that measures are in place to ensure joint working across Hull and the East Riding of Yorkshire. That type of multi-agency and cross-boundary partnership working is especially valuable.

Consultation by the Environment Agency on the River Hull flood risk management strategy and the River Hull and coastal streams catchment flood management plan began early this summer—on 21 May, I believe—and will run for 12 weeks. It closes on 13 August. The strategy includes a number of recommendations on works to improve the defences in the city of Hull and the maintaining of pumping stations and flood banks. Such consultation is important. I would urge all groups and individuals with an interest in flood management in the area to contribute. That certainly includes farmers and others who naturally have concerns about the impact of possible changes on farm land. Their concerns are matters that will be fully considered as part of the assessment of options.

It would be wrong not to acknowledge that a lot of good work has been done since 2007, including by the people of Hull. The Environment Agency has almost completed a £10 million refurbishment of the Hull tidal barrier, which protects around 17,000 properties from tidal surges. Yorkshire Water and the Environment Agency have undertaken to refurbish the equipment in the East Hull pumping station. The work to the agency’s pumps will cost around £900,000 and is due to be completed by the autumn.

There are new flood defence schemes at Burstwick, Hedon, which I believe is in the constituency of my right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis), and Hessle. The scheme at Hedon has been completed, while those at Burstwick and Hessle are under construction. Maintenance work and the removal of debris has happened on a number of watercourses, including the western drain, Setting dyke and Cryke beck. There have been improvements to pumping stations at East Hull and Bransholme, and the installation of new infrastructure at Burstwick, New Clough and Westlands drain. There has been a variety of small, local levy-funded projects—work funded by the local levy raised by the regional flood defence committee, plus supplementary funding from the Environment Agency, including projects in or close to the hon. Lady’s constituency.

There is more to do, including at the national level. I have already said that one of DEFRA’s top priorities is to take forward the findings of the Pitt review. Part of that is the work that we are now doing on the review of the regulations provided in the Flood and Water Management Act 2010 in the context of the better regulation action plan announced by the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. We are working hard on establishing a time scale for implementing the Act, but it is especially pleasing that many of the authorities that will have new duties and powers under the Act are already getting on with managing flood risk. For our part, DEFRA is also working with key players, including local authorities, the Environment Agency and professional bodies, to ensure that they have the capacity to implement the Act.

Implementing Sir Michael’s recommendations is not all about legislative change. Another important part is ensuring that local emergency planners and responders have the tools they need. We know that our emergency services, local authorities and the affected communities all do a fantastic job when called upon. However, one of Sir Michael’s interim recommendations was that we should have a national flood emergency framework to provide a common point of reference. Like Sir Michael, I want to ensure that there is clarity about roles and responsibilities, and a proper multi-agency approach to both flood planning and the emergency response. We hope to publish the framework very soon.

[Andrew Percy]

One very good way of involving communities is through parish councils. In Swinefleet, in my constituency, and in Airmyn parish council, on which I sit, we have produced our own flood emergency plans. I think that we should try to extend that throughout the country, and get parish councils thinking about how they can deal with emergencies such as flooding.

[Richard Benyon]

I entirely agree. We discussed that at length during a recent meeting of the chairs of the forums. There is an enormous amount of work that we can do to encourage such activity. We need a bottom-up, community-led approach. Some might even describe it as a “big society” approach, while others might call it a co-operative movement. I do not care what it is called; what is important is to understand that a lot of emotion is involved in protecting people’s homes. I have seen wonderful examples of communities pulling together and not only enjoying the process, but creating a flood watch scheme rather like a neighbourhood watch scheme. People keep an eye on the excellent data that the Environment Agency now publishes, which enables them to provide information, make plans and take action whenever that is required.

It is also worth mentioning Exercise Watermark. On taking office, I was determined that the pressures on budgets should not prevent such an important exercise from taking place. Watermark will be a comprehensive test of local and national preparedness, and will no doubt yield some important lessons for us all. I am delighted that the Humber local resilience forum will be involved in the exercise, which is planned to take place next March.

Let me end by giving the hon. Lady an assurance. Yes, we face very difficult financial circumstances, and yes, DEFRA faces the challenge of identifying the savings that are necessary to the Government’s plans for dealing with the deficit. However, our absolute priority is to ensure that our flood defences remain as robust as possible. Of course I cannot guarantee that every single scheme will continue—I would not give that impression at a time when we are going through such a difficult process—but I can assure the hon. Lady that flood resilience is an absolute priority.

This Government want to continue in the spirit of the last Government, and to ensure that the schemes that are needed are there. We want to ensure that we are using every possible means to access funds—to use local resources and, when possible, levy funding—and also to ensure that we are fulfilling our responsibilities as a Government. We will not satisfy everyone, but I can assure the hon. Lady that this is an absolute priority for the Department and the Government.

Question put and agreed to.

23:38

House adjourned.

Badman Report (Sunderland North)

Tuesday 13th July 2010 Petitions

The Petition of persons resident in the Sunderland North parliamentary constituency,

Declares that they are concerned about the recommendations of the Badman Report, which suggests closer monitoring of home educators, including a compulsory annual registration scheme and right of access to people’s homes for local authority officials; further declares that the Petitioners believe the recommendations are based on a review that was extremely rushed, failed to give due consideration to the evidence, failed to ensure that the data it collected were sufficiently robust, and failed to take proper account of the existing legislative framework.

The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families either not to bring forward, or to withdraw, proposed legislative measures providing for tighter registration and monitoring of children educated at home in the absence of a thorough independent inquiry into the condition and future of elective home education in England; but instead to take the steps necessary to ensure that the existing Elective Home Education Guidelines for Local Authorities are properly implemented, learning from current best practice, in all local authorities in England.

And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented to the House on 8 April 2010, Official Report, Vol. 508, c. 47P.]

[P000828]

Observations from the Secretary of State for Education:

You have petitioned that proposed legislative measures providing for tighter registration and monitoring of children educated at home be withdrawn and instead, that the necessary steps be taken to ensure that existing Elective Home Education Guidelines for Local Authorities be properly implemented.

The proposals to legislate for a registration and monitoring scheme for home educating families were removed from the Children, Schools and Families Bill prior to the General Election. We have not yet been able to consider in detail our approach to home education and whether or not any changes to the existing arrangements are required.

The previous Government issued non-statutory guidelines for local authorities in November 2007. These guidelines set out the current legislative position and the roles and responsibilities of local authorities and parents in relation to home educated children and are available at: http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/everychildmatters/publications/elective/

Westminster Hall

Tuesday 13th July 2010 Westminster Hall

Tuesday 13 July 2010

[Mr Mike Hancock in the Chair]

Offshore Energy Industry

Tuesday 13th July 2010 Westminster Hall

Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting be now adjourned.—(Mr Vara.)

09:30

[Malcolm Bruce (Gordon) (LD)]

I am delighted to have this debate and to speak under your chairmanship, Mr Hancock. As I hope my contribution will make clear, the debate is about one of the most vital sectors of the UK economy, in terms of both securing our deficit reduction and growing the private sector. It is fair to say that in the House a relatively small number of hon. Members engage in detail with the sector, but it is hugely important to the British economy and I am grateful to those hon. Members who are present. I understand that a number of hon. Members have the first sittings of Select Committees in Parliament this morning, which may make it difficult for them to stay for the whole debate. I completely understand if that is the case. Being the Chairman of a Select Committee, I have had the luxury and indulgence of being able to secure a timing that is compatible with this debate.

I have been associated with UK oil and gas developments for nearly 40 years, since 1971, when I became the research and information officer with NESDA—the North East Scotland Development Authority. At that time, exploration was in its infancy. The Montrose field was discovered, and in the autumn of 1971 BP announced the successful testing of the first commercial well for what became the Forties field. After that, Aberdeen went into boom mode as the UK scrambled to get the maximum production out of the North sea, while the Organisation of Petroleum Exporting Countries asserted itself, squeezed supplies and forced up prices across the world. Field after field was brought on-stream. That boom continued until the oil price collapsed in the late 1980s and then there was a sharp and painful downturn.

However, for all of the past 40 years, despite ups and downs, the offshore industry has made a huge contribution to the UK economy. That continues to be the case. We shall be at another key point of development over the next two or three years, when how we deal with the industry as it changes and as other industries associated with it come on-stream will determine precisely how much of a contribution it will make to the UK economy over the next 40 years. There is the development of the renewables industry, which shares much of the same technology as the offshore oil and gas industry. They can complement each other and compete.

Among those who are not well acquainted with the offshore energy industry, there is a presumption that oil and gas are in sharp decline and little recognition of the crossover between oil and gas and renewable energy. In Oil & Gas UK’s latest economic report, there is a clear indication of a huge industry with a long-term future. Domestic oil and gas production was 2.4 million barrels of oil equivalent a day in 2009. That is equivalent to 94% of the UK’s oil needs and 68% of our gas requirements. With sustained investment, that level of production will decline slowly, at about 5% per annum, although even that may level off if we get the right type of investment. The position is that 39.5 billion barrels of oil equivalent have been produced, with between 15 billion and 24 billion barrels of oil equivalent of recoverable reserves remaining.

Capital investment, which had declined, is now rising again towards an estimated £6 billion or more. Indeed, the industry’s total spend in 2009 is estimated at £12.3 billion. With the oil price rising, tax paid in the current year is expected to rise to £9.4 billion—a 45% increase, based on an oil price of $78 a barrel. On top of that, the balance of payments benefited to the tune of £27 billion, and there is £5 billion of exports—a figure that is growing. Altogether, the industry sustained 440,000 jobs across the UK.

It is important to put the figures on the record, because too often people do not appreciate how huge the industry is and how important it is not just to the north-east of Scotland, but to the whole United Kingdom.

[Sir Robert Smith (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)]

I congratulate my right hon. Friend on raising this subject for debate. He is making a vital point. In the north-east of Scotland, we are probably aware of just how vital the industry is to jobs and investment there. What is important is getting the message across to the rest of the United Kingdom about what a success story the industry is. He has touched on the industry’s export potential. The vital point that he is developing is that, with the right encouragement and investment, there is a long-term future for many more jobs for the whole of the United Kingdom. That will be the case if the Government can get the policies right to encourage companies to locate in the north-east of Scotland.

[Mr Mike Hancock (in the Chair)]

That was very nearly a speech, Sir Robert.

[Malcolm Bruce]

It was a long intervention but an appreciated one, because it reinforces the point. Exactly as my hon. Friend says, we who represent the north-east of Scotland know and understand the industry. Generally when it is debated in the House, we are the only people who turn up, along with one or two others, yet the industry accounts for more than 20% of all UK industrial investment. There are much better attended debates on industries whose economic impact is far less than that of this industry, so I make no apology whatever for stressing its importance and for bringing it to the attention of the House and the Minister. I know that the Minister understands these issues and I hope that his response to the debate will demonstrate that.

We have a huge amount of technical innovation to enhance the recovery of our existing reserves, to operate in more difficult areas and to squeeze more oil and gas out of the existing reserves that we have found and, at the same time, to adapt the technology to be able to install offshore wind farms and provide for electrical transmission and possibly other marine renewable energy. This is one of the industries that could help to grow the private sector and grow the recovery of the UK economy if it is handled correctly. It is my contention, and the purpose of asking for the debate was to say, that the economic and Exchequer revenue potential of this sector for the UK economy is massive, and if it is not properly handled, significant future benefits could be put at risk.

Let me be clear. Aberdeen and the north-east of Scotland have welcomed the offshore industry and built up a critical mass of innovation and global activity. It is estimated that more than 1,000 companies are based in our area.

[Miss Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab)]

I suspect that the right hon. Gentleman was coming on to this point, but Aberdeen and the north-east of Scotland excel not only in the technical expertise but in the intellectual expertise necessary for an energy industry—not just oil and gas. The crucial part that is played by both universities in Aberdeen—Aberdeen university and Robert Gordon university, in my constituency—is very important to the future well-being of the whole area.

[Malcolm Bruce]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady because that is a very welcome and pertinent point. There is a critical mass; there is almost a buzz around Aberdeen among those who are engaged in the industry, because they are at the cutting edge of global technology and innovation. Companies have developed in the area to service activity on the UK continental shelf, but what they have learned in the process of doing that is of so high a standard—we are talking about world-class standards—that many companies are now exporting much, and in some cases the majority, of their output all over the world. That is why we have £5 billion-plus of exports, and that figure is rising quite sharply.

A synergy and value are being added by that dynamic critical mass. Engineers, technicians and certainly academics based in the north-east of Scotland travel all over the world, winning business and servicing the offshore industry. Aberdeen is the world’s leading centre for innovative sea technology. It is a good story and I do not want anyone to suggest that my concerns are about anything other than saying that the north-east of Scotland welcomes this industry, is open for business and has a very dynamic relationship with it, but we need to keep it and to build on it.

I want now to address offshore infrastructure, which is the purpose of the debate. Over the past 40 years, platforms, subsea completions, offshore loading systems and pipelines have been installed all over the North sea, but many of the fields that they originally served have declined, and Brent crude, the North sea’s oil price benchmark, may soon be a thing of the past. BP has sold its interest in the Forties field to Apache, and operations and developments have transferred across the acreage. New, smaller fields are being developed, and they require creative engineering and access to the existing infrastructure to make them viable.

I know that the Department fully understands Oil & Gas UK’s assertion that the North sea’s future lies in exploiting smaller, marginal and technically challenging reserves, the majority of which will not support stand-alone infrastructure, and I am sure that that is why the Department has established the infrastructure code of practice, but there is concern in some quarters about how the code works in practice, and that is borne out by Endeavour International’s request for the Government to arbitrate on its pricing dispute. The other problem is that the older infrastructure was, by definition, developed by the majors—the bigger companies—but is now required by smaller companies. In negotiating terms, there can be an imbalance between the parties, which the Department needs to address to ensure that we achieve optimum use.

I, for one, am pleased that the Government have explicitly recognised the need for a stable and fair fiscal regime for the industry, not least because I and my hon. Friend the Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine (Sir Robert Smith) were instrumental in getting a commitment on that into our party’s manifesto, and the Minister may well have done the same with his party’s manifesto. I am also pleased that a greater understanding has developed between the Treasury and the industry in recent years, and the hon. Member for Aberdeen South (Miss Begg), in her capacity as the chair of the all-party group on the oil and gas industry, has arranged one or two useful briefings with Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs to give us an insight into how that understanding actually works.

I therefore accept that there is a recognition of the need to balance the desire for short-term tax revenues and the long-term prospects offered by future investment. In simple terms, however, the tax regime can influence investment positively or negatively and therefore—I will return to this—alter the potential revenue profile. Centrica, for example, has said that it has expertise in developing tight gas, but that because that is generally found in larger fields, development does not qualify for new-field allowance or any other allowances, which delays investment, prejudicing security of supply and revenue. Perhaps the Minister can comment on whether his Department or the Treasury are in any way active in addressing that issue.

There is also concern, or at least debate, about the future of the petroleum revenue tax and how it might impact on abandonment and decommissioning, which could be carried out prematurely and in contradiction of the decommissioning code of practice. There is discussion—certainly in the industry—about the scope for PRT buy-out, which has an upside and a downside from the Treasury’s point of view in that it could provide the Treasury with an early cash flow, but only in exchange for future liabilities, and that is a fine balance. Again, it would be interesting to know whether the Minister or the Department have a view on that.

The Secretary of State visited the All-Energy exhibition during his first week in office and saw for himself the growing engagement in offshore technology and the crossover between oil and gas and renewables. That crossover has potentially useful synergies for manufacturing and installations, but it could, as the industry recently said, also create competition between the sectors, which could cause cost inflation, especially if there are significant infrastructure constraints. That could make marginal investments unprofitable and squeeze them out altogether. The core of my concern is that constraints on infrastructure—offshore or onshore—could prejudice investment and cost us jobs, revenue and economic benefits.

Indeed, RenewableUK sent in a contribution this morning making the same point. E.ON states:

“having the right infrastructure in place to accommodate these vessels is essential for making the UK the place for carrying out installation works, when other ports in continental Europe could carry out the same function.”

There is real concern that installation work for UK North sea offshore energy could be carried out by continental ports and that a lot of the support work associated with that installation could therefore be transferred to companies based on the continent. That is one of the concerns that needs to be addressed.

E.ON also said:

“One of the key requirements at port is space for the storage and pre-assembly of foundations and wind turbine parts and port authorities need to see a clear commitment from Government to offshore wind in order to have confidence to invest in these types of facilities.”

The Chancellor of the Exchequer indicated that there would be £60 million of grants to develop port facilities. Can the Minister give us any more information about that in his reply? E.ON’s point was not only that Government money may contribute to ensuring that these things happen, but that private money will be invested in ports provided that there is confidence that the level of activity justifies that investment.

Concern has been expressed about how the infrastructure for offshore wind can be developed. One argument that has been put to me is that developers would like more control over access to infrastructure—for example, designing and constructing it, before transferring it. There is concern that, if the infrastructure is owned by somebody other than the developer, that could lead to delays and make investment calculations more complicated.

There seems to be universal opposition to the bureaucratic confusion between the Department of Energy and Climate Change and the Crown Estate, which are responsible for licensing the sea bed for offshore renewable energy. The Minister expressed his view on the issue in opposition, although I do not know whether he or his Department still hold to that view. My question is simply what prospects there are of DECC becoming the sole licensing agency. The industry is certainly asking for it to take on that role. To anticipate the counter-argument, I accept entirely that the interests of the fishing industry and other commercial maritime interests need to be taken into account, but I, for one, see no reason why DECC could not be trusted to take on such a role.

The story today is as follows. Offshore oil and gas is in a mature phase and has a more challenging and fragmented role than in the past. Properly handled, however, it will make a huge contribution to the UK’s energy supply, investment, our balance of payments and jobs, as well as to deficit reduction and economic recovery. At the same time, we have a growing, new offshore renewable energy industry, which shares some of the same technologies and therefore offers diversification. The industry is already heading for a £2 billion turnover and it has the potential to grow, more than taking up any slack that might emerge in the oil and gas sector. As I said, competition between those sectors could be inflationary despite the obvious synergies. For example, it could cause cost inflation in terms of offshore vessels, because there are nothing like enough vessels to meet the challenge of further developing the North sea, and the same could apply to subsea equipment. All that could prejudice marginal investments so that they do not happen at all.

Ideally, companies operating in the northern North sea would prefer to base their operations in the UK, with north-east Scotland as the preferred location for many of their activities. I completely accept that it might not concern the UK Government if pressure in the north-east leads to development elsewhere in the UK, but Ministers should be concerned if that pressure leads to development elsewhere in the world, whether in Europe or further afield. My concern is that costs and operating difficulties could lose the UK investment altogether, and it is important that UK Ministers understand the problems that north-east Scotland faces, so that we can give these crucial industries the infrastructure that they are entitled to expect.

I turn now to an issue that is not the direct responsibility of the Minister’s Department, although it should concern him. Compared with other energy centres around the world, Aberdeen does not live up to its role as Europe’s offshore energy capital. As one correspondent put it:

“Rail connections are poor and, if anything, in decline. Road to the north is very poor. Air needs sustaining and key connections improved.”

The Aberdeen western peripheral route, which will provide a bypass around the city from the north and north-west, faces delays and uncertainty over funding, but it is essential to the city’s functioning and future credibility. Aberdeen City and Shire Economic Future, which seeks to promote the optimum development of the UK economy, is looking for ways to secure the energy industry’s long-term future, anchoring the industry in our region. It is also promoting a development corridor between Aberdeen and Peterhead called Energetica and hopes to attract a range of energy-related developments.

Anyone who knows the geography of Aberdeen will appreciate that its viability depends on the completion of the bypass and the A90 dual carriageway to the north. Further improvements to the A96 Aberdeen to Inverness route are also required, including to the notorious bottleneck at Inveramsay bridge, where the trunk road passes under a railway; single-file traffic is controlled by traffic lights at that point, and large vehicles are diverted along a B road. Much has been promised, but nothing has been done to resolve the problem.

At the same time, the proposed commuter rail service between Inverurie and Stonehaven—it has always been presented as a complement to the bypass; it is not just a road but a transport solution—has made no progress, not even in relation to the simple job of providing a station at Kintore, a community that has quadrupled in size over the past 10 years. However, although rail investments in recent years have far exceeded the business plan, conservative predictions continue to be used to justify resisting a commitment to further development.

[Miss Begg]

The right hon. Gentleman is right that the north-east, and particularly Aberdeen, has been waiting for a long time for a western peripheral route. Thanks to the last Labour-Lib Dem Administration in the Scottish Parliament, it was finally agreed that it should be built, but almost 10 years later we are still waiting. Not even a centimetre of tarmac has been laid, despite the spending of £100 million. The lack of a western peripheral road and of Crossrail is a double stranglehold. One would help deal with traffic congestion and both would be excellent, but we have neither.

[Malcolm Bruce]

I completely agree. I urge the Minister to listen to this part of the debate. I can anticipate his reply. His brief will say that they are matters for the devolved authorities and local authorities. Indeed they are, but if for whatever reason those authorities are not able to deliver that infrastructure, it is UK Departments that will lose the economic benefit and the tax revenues. It is important that joined-up government engages in this, and I have some practical suggestions and questions for the Minister. I hope that he will not think, “Ah, this is the bit where I just offload it to the devolved Administration.” It is much more serious than that. I am deliberately not trying to pin blame. I simply observe that these vital investments, which are crucial to the dynamic operation of the city of Aberdeen to deal with the next 40 years of development, are not happening. It is important that the Government understand that, and that they are engaged.

Twenty years ago, I was successful in securing the reopening of Dyce station, which has proved a great success. Indeed, trains are so overcrowded that one cannot board them at that station for safety reasons. The problem is that, while the station remained closed, the airport terminal was moved to the other side of the airport, so that vital link is no longer there. The airport has had investment, but for an energy centre of Aberdeen’s importance the range of services and flight links is limited, and the ground links fall far short of what is needed, as those who get stuck there at 5 o’clock will know.

[The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Charles Hendry)]

indicated assent.

[Malcolm Bruce]

I see the Minister nodding. He has been in that situation and will understand.

The two local authorities that serve the north-east of Scotland are struggling to deliver essential services on funding levels well below those of other Scottish authorities, but the latter do not face the same pressures. Both authorities receive grant aid at well below 90% of the Scottish average, despite having the fastest population growth in Scotland—indeed, compared with some parts of Scotland, the only population growth. Aberdeen city businesses pay around £150 million in business rates and receive back only half of that. Although Aberdeenshire is a net beneficiary, the overall grant allocation is a significant net loss.

It is important for the Minister to be aware that in the 1970s, when the scramble to develop the North sea was under way, local authorities in the north-east of Scotland received extra rate support for five years to enable them to meet the infrastructure needs of the growing industry. It was a special one-off recognition of the pressure that they were under. I suggest that something similar may be required now if we are to deliver people’s hopes and expectations for the next 40 years.

The population of the region has grown by around 50,000 over the past 40 years and it is projected to grow by a further 50,000 in the next 15 years. Unemployment is low and incomes are high. People may say, “You’ve got low unemployment and high incomes. What’s your problem?” The problem is that that income does not stay in the area. Taxes go to the Exchequer and business rates go to the Scottish Parliament, and we are dependent on grant support coming back to the area. Unfortunately, that does not happen enough—we do not have sufficient resources. Because of those pressures, housing costs are high, as are the costs of recruiting and retaining key people.

A substantial section of the British economy, for which the Minister and the Treasury are responsible, could be the biggest losers if we do not get it right. I shall give some statistics. If we lose only 1% of the forecast potential average development over the next few years, it would cost us £74 million a year in tax revenue, £270 million a year on the balance of payments, £50 million in exports, £60 million in investment, £60 million in operational spending and 4,400 jobs. If we lost 5%, it would cost us £480 million each year in tax revenue, £1,350 million on the balance of payments, £250 million in exports every year, £300 million in investment and £300 million in operating costs, and 22,000 jobs. I hope that those figures reinforce the fact that a small shortfall could result in us losing a substantial amount of revenue.

I therefore ask three things of the Minister. First, will he engage with the Treasury over the fossil fuel levy attributable to Scotland? The Economic Secretary has confirmed that the Government are committed to reviewing the

“control and use of accumulated and future revenues from the levy”.

I suggest that it would be appropriate for a substantial proportion of that to be allocated to infrastructure support in the north-east of Scotland, specifically to support the offshore renewable industry. I make no bones about it. It would help both oil and gas and renewables. That would be an appropriate use of the money, both now and in future.

Secondly, I remind the Minister that, through an Act of Parliament, Shetland and Orkney secured a share of the continuing revenues based on the flow through their respective oil terminals. No such provision was made, or sought, for the north-east of Scotland, probably because it did not expect to be so badly squeezed by the funding arrangements as they are. That is despite the area being a major landfall for oil and gas. I do not know how many pipelines cross my constituency, but it is probably into double figures. It is also the most important land base for offshore operations.

I therefore suggest that some consideration be given to the tiniest share of revenue from the oil and gas industry being earmarked for infrastructure. That would pay dividends by ensuring maximum long-term revenue. That may sound like a bid for new money, although there is a way of presenting it that would not. However, I return to the debate within the industry about the possibility of PRT buy-outs, which could create a cash-flow windfall for the Treasury. If the Government were minded to consider it, that bonus could support a small infrastructure fund.

Thirdly, given representations made during the debate by other hon. Members, I hope that the Minister will engage constructively with Ministers in the Scottish Administration. If they fail to support essential infrastructure in the north-east, it will prejudice not only the Scottish economy but the entire UK economy. In order to deliver that investment, it is therefore legitimate for the Government to have a partnership with the Scottish Government. So far, they have failed to so. I am trying hard not to be too political about it, but the facts are as the hon. Member for Aberdeen South made clear. Although promises have been made, delivery has not been achieved, and that is a real anxiety for the industry and its confidence in future investment.

The north-east of Scotland is a key economic region for the UK. It delivers far above its weight for its small population, but for it to continue to be a driver of growth for such a large chunk of the UK economy, it needs recognition and support. It suffers from relative remoteness. I meet too many people in Scotland, let alone in England, who tell me that they have never been to Aberdeen, and they have a very warped idea of what it is about. In some ways, the dynamism of the north-east of Scotland is perhaps Britain’s best kept secret. There are not 500,000 people anywhere in the United Kingdom who contribute so much economically. Indeed we have statistics to show that the contribution per capita of the north-east of Scotland is the highest of any region in Europe, and I am not sure whether that is fully recognised or acknowledged in the way in which it is treated by Government at all levels.

I know the Minister, and I believe that he understands much of what I am saying. He certainly knows Aberdeen, and Aberdeen knows and respects him. I look to him to ensure that the whole Government recognise the importance of the issue and act accordingly. I have tried to identify not just the problems but some possible solutions. I have tried to emphasise that if we do not get this right, it is the UK Government and the UK economy that stand to lose the most. We in the north-east of Scotland can proudly say that we have made an enormous contribution to the whole of the UK over the past 40 years, and the right decisions taken now can ensure that we will do that for the next 40 years. I hope that the Minister will understand that this is not just an opportunity for a local press release, but a serious debate where there is real and genuine concern within the industry that, if these issues are not addressed, a substantial amount of investment in the UK economy could be lost.

10:01

[Mr Frank Doran (Aberdeen North) (Lab)]

I congratulate my neighbour—I was about to say my right hon. Friend but that would have been a mistake, given his recent political aberration—the right hon. Member for Gordon (Malcolm Bruce) on putting such a strong case. I do not demur from anything that he said. It is important to put out the message that the future for the oil and gas industry is positive. As he rightly says, there is a view that there is a sharp decline in North sea oil and gas, but that is not the case. The decline is shallow and slow, and it is in all our interests to ensure that it remains so. At the same time, the oil industry in Aberdeen is changing its profile, as it has been doing for some years. All of us who represent the area, including the right hon. Gentleman, travel between Aberdeen and London every week, usually by plane, and we see people who travel to every part of the globe. The subsea industry, which is based mainly in Aberdeen but has important centres in Teesside and Southampton, now wins about 60% of worldwide contracts in subsea technology. It is playing a huge part in the rescue operation in the gulf of Mexico. That is the future: exporting our technology and skills, but maintaining our important pace in the North sea.

[Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)]

Before my hon. Friend gets into the main body of his remarks, and given that he has just touched on the gulf of Mexico disaster, does he share my concern about the information that has come out in written answers—not from the Minister’s Department, but from Work and Pensions Minister with responsibility for the Health and Safety Executive—that Transocean, the operators of the rig at the heart of the gulf of Mexico disaster, has seen some 100 safety incidents in the past three years on its 10 UK rigs? Does not that indicate that the health and safety inspection of those 10 rigs in the UK needs to be speeded up?

[Mr Doran]

My hon. Friend, while representing the well-known oil province of Harrow West, has done a huge amount of important work in this area. He makes a valuable point, and I will say a little about the problems in the drilling industry because it is the last area in the North sea with a frontier mentality. The rest of the industry has made great progress, but I am afraid that the drillers are still in John Wayne territory.

Most of the key economic points and very strong regional points have already been made by the right hon. Member for Gordon, but as this is an industry that both he and I have spent much of our parliamentary life working with, examining and considering, there are three crucial areas of infrastructure that I want to discuss: the kit that is in the North sea—the platforms, the pipelines, the wells and the vessels that service the industry—the people in the industry, because they are a key part of the infrastructure; and the Government at every level. I shall try not to duplicate any of the right hon. Gentleman’s points, but if I do, I hope that they will reinforce what he said.

As I said, we have a huge amount of infrastructure in the North sea. Most of it is ageing and needs to be carefully maintained, but that does not always happen. One of the key problems in the North sea oil and gas industry is the fact that the price of the product is based on worldwide prices and we have no control over it. I remember a time in the mid-1980s when the price dropped almost overnight from $32 a barrel to $8. The North sea industry was devastated. Virtually every job and every piece of investment stopped, and the price stayed low for quite a while. I have always put the fact that I was elected as a Labour MP in a constituency that had always, apart from one occasion in the 1960s, been a Conservative seat down to the fact that the then Government were being punished for that collapse in the oil prices. It had a huge impact, as some 50,000 jobs were lost overnight.

The problems continued into the late 1980s and early 1990s, and then we saw a price rise. In the late 1990s, however, there was another drop in the price. Recently, the price rocketed, going up to slightly more than $100 a barrel two or three years ago. We have now achieved a degree of stability—and tax stability, I hope—with the price standing at about $75 a barrel, which is good for the industry. The money should be in place to ensure that assets are properly maintained.

I raise that point because at certain points over the life of the industry—the last 40-odd years—there were times when the infrastructure was not properly maintained. The classic case is the Piper Alpha disaster, which had its 22nd anniversary last week. If we consider the history of the particular platform that led to the disaster, which was well spelled out in the Cullen report, it is quite clear that a lack of maintenance was one of the key issues. There was a whole host of issues including a water deluge system in which none of the valves worked because they had become clogged up with gunge, and a lack of a proper permit-to-work system. Once the people in the oil industry got over the shock that a disaster on that scale could happen on the platforms that they had built, they said that it could have happened to any one of at least a dozen platforms—many platforms were in the same condition. However, good things come out of every disaster, and the good thing in this case was that the Cullen report established a safety system that is now the template for safety in not just the oil and gas industry, but the rest of industry. It set a goal-setting system rather than a tick-box system, and we have made progress.

It is important to record that over the past four or five years, there have been some difficulties. I have spoken both in this Chamber and in the main Chamber about the KP3 report, which was an attempt by the Health and Safety Executive offshore division to look at the integrity of our assets in the North sea. The report found that the industry was wanting. It identified some very serious problems to which the industry was forced to respond. I will not go through the detail of the report now, as I have done so before and it is not necessary to do so again now, but it is important to record that the industry responded well, as the review that was carried out a couple of years later showed.

There are still difficulties, however. The HSE recently released figures showing that a significant number of enforcement notices were still being issued. A total of 446 safety regulations have been broken by more than 30 companies since 2006. Some of those breaches of safety regulations were minor, but I know that some were not so minor.

The period covered by those figures includes the period when the KP3 report was being put together. Nevertheless, we need to keep underlining and reinforcing the importance of the safety regime to ensure that the industry continues to maintain our assets in the North sea. The health and safety of the work force is crucial. We saw the devastating effect of the Piper Alpha disaster on not only the companies involved, but the whole industry. The same thing is now happening in the gulf of Mexico. There is nothing quite as expensive as an accident. It is extremely important that we remember that maintenance is cheap compared with the cost of an accident.

There are huge opportunities in the industry. The right hon. Member for Gordon rightly talked about the spin-off benefits for the renewables industry, and it is important that we recognise the value of those benefits. I do not think that a renewables industry on the scale that we need will be possible without strong Government support, so I hope that this Government will continue to give the support that was provided by the previous Government. The same goes for other sectors related to the North sea sector, such as carbon capture and storage. The production of a commercial working product in that sector will also require significant Government support.

In addition, we have the huge opportunity of the west of Shetland project—in fact, there is not one such project but a number of projects. Those projects will become much more feasible because of the support that was given through the tax system by the previous Government to the Laggan project, which I hope the current Government will continue. The pipeline that will be built as part of the project will be the key part of the infrastructure that will make many other projects possible, so it is important that Government support continues.

I want to move on to discuss the people involved in the industry. The work force in the North sea are highly skilled, but there are still huge skills shortages. The work force is also ageing. Although it took the industry a long time, it now has an established oil and gas training school: the offshore petroleum industry training organisation based in Portlethen, which is just south of Aberdeen. OPITO has probably become the benchmark for safety regimes, training and safety, and other related skills in the whole world. There is not an oil regime in the world with which OPITO is not involved. It sets safety standards and provides the support that is necessary for companies, particularly those operating in the more remote parts of the world such as the west of Africa and Asia, to have proper, modern safety systems, as well as other systems that support the industry.

We must remember that the North sea is a very dangerous area. While the right hon. Member for Gordon was speaking, I quickly drew up a list of disasters—and they were disasters—in the North sea: the Alexander Kielland disaster; the Piper Alpha disaster; the Ocean Odyssey disaster; the Brent Alpha disaster; and the helicopter disasters, including the Chinook disaster, the Cormorant disaster, the Morecambe bay helicopter crash and the Super Puma disaster in April 2009. They caused huge loss of life across the board.

Safety has improved immeasurably since the Piper Alpha disaster, however, and the industry has made a huge improvement in safety, including by working through its agency, Step Change. Recently, it has also recognised the importance of the work force.

[Malcolm Bruce]

Does the hon. Gentleman acknowledge that one of the reductions in safety has been due to greater automation of offshore activity? That greater automation has meant that more of the industry’s activity is supported onshore, but that has actually increased the pressure on the onshore infrastructure for the very same reason.

[Mr Doran]

The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. Nevertheless, there are many reasons for the improvements in safety that have occurred. I think that the most important reason has been the dramatic change in the industry’s attitude. We must constantly be vigilant, which is why we depend on the HSE. Its KP3 report was a wake-up call. The safety of working on platforms has certainly improved dramatically, although there are still issues about helicopters.

The oil and gas industry has realised the importance of engagement with the work force. A key part of the HSE’s review of the KP3 report was a careful examination of worker involvement in the North sea oil and gas industry, which involved working with both the industry and the unions.

A huge step forward was taken when the industry set up its helicopter task group to look at the Super Puma helicopter disaster 15 months ago. Three trade union officials from Aberdeen were involved in that task group, which examined a lot more than the accident itself. It looked at the causes of the accident, worked out what the problems were, reached conclusions and made recommendations. In addition, it looked at issues that had concerned people such as the right hon. Member for Gordon and me for years.

For example, there was concern about the lack of radar in the North sea oil and gas industry. When the Minister was about to make an offshore trip—I know that it was not his first such trip—I told him one of my scary stories about trying to get on to an oil platform in very thick fog in the middle of the North sea. It took us three attempts to get on to the platform. That was not the best experience of my life, but the people who work in the North sea have to make such trips every week when they go out to the platforms and then come back in. However, progress will be made, such as by providing radar and improving the lighting on platforms. The helicopter task group went much further than looking only at the Super Puma disaster and I think that everybody in the industry welcomed the report that it produced. In addition, the Oil Spill Prevention and Response Advisory Group has been set up to tackle the consequences for the North Sea, if there are any, of an oil spill similar to the one that is happening now in the gulf of Mexico. The trade unions are involved in OSPRAG, too.

The Minister cheered me up immensely two or three weeks ago after we had heard the statement from the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change on the oil spill in the gulf of Mexico and the action that he was taking in relation to the North sea. After that statement, the Minister said to me, “I’m going up to Aberdeen next week and I’d like to meet the trade unions.” I must say that after the 20-odd years—with a slight break in the middle—that I have been a Member of Parliament, a Conservative Minister saying such a thing shows that there has been a change everywhere. If this Government recognise the importance of the trade unions, particularly in the area of North sea safety, I welcome that wholeheartedly. I know that the Minister had a good meeting with trade union officials in Aberdeen.

The other key part of the infrastructure is the Government. I have seen a massive change in the Government’s approach to the industry. When I was first elected to Parliament in 1987, there was a Department of Energy, which was responsible for both production and safety. However, it was quite clear that the Department did not work, and I must say that we did not need the Piper Alpha disaster to tell us that, although it underlined the fact in spades. Of course, one of the key recommendations of Lord Cullen’s inquiry into the Piper Alpha disaster was that responsibility for checking safety should be passed to the HSE.

At that time, I was appointed to the Front Bench as part of the then shadow Energy team with responsibility for the oil and gas industry. I spent four years shadowing two Ministers: Peter Morrison and Colin Moynihan. Given that and subsequent experience, I have no doubt that the Government in those days saw the industry as a cash cow for raising money, which was one reason why the focus on safety was not as strong as it should have been.

When my party was elected to government in 1997, I do not think that the position changed—the attitude was the same. I remember many battles with Treasury Ministers in 1997 and 1998 when they were reviewing oil taxation and seriously considering increasing the tax on the oil industry. A windfall tax had been levied on the banks, which some of us cheered, and similar measures were being proposed for the oil industry. Those of us who were involved in that campaign recognised that the industry had gone through a sustained period of low prices and that increasing taxes would be the wrong thing to do.

Thankfully, the then Chancellor, who was one of the most dyed-in-the-wool proponents of the tax—I remember a difficult meeting with him—ultimately accepted that we were right, and a Government review decided that the tax regime should not be changed. The tax was increased when prices improved and again, if I remember correctly, during the next Parliament. However, the industry’s position was much more secure by that time, and it was recognised during the 1990s that taking money out of the North sea was wrong.

One result of that, as the right hon. Member for Gordon mentioned, was that the Revenue became more involved in the oil industry task group pilot. That was a fundamental change, because at the time the Treasury saw itself as completely separate from the industry. It had some knowledge of how the industry operated, but did not concern itself with the day-to-day stuff. Sending an observer from Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs to the pilot meetings fundamentally changed the Government’s attitude to the oil and gas industry. It is now accepted that it is crucial to encourage inward investment in the North sea and to consider how the oil companies spend their money. The right hon. Gentleman rightly discussed the significant sums that will, we hope, be invested this year and next year in the North sea, and the revenue benefit to the Government as a result of that investment.

It is crucial that we continue to bring in new blood. The right hon. Gentleman mentioned Apache, which had never been in the North sea, having concentrated mainly on America and the middle east. Apache came over and bought the massive Forties field. It made it work and is now a major player. When BP was not prepared to invest any more, Apache made things work.

Another crucial thing that the previous Government did was to improve tax reliefs for new entrants to drilling. Before that, drilling, exploration and appraisal costs were allowable only against previous profits. If a company had no previous profits because it had not been in the North sea, it got no tax relief.

I hope that the important changes that have been made, mainly in the past 10 years, will be carried forward by this Government. It is important that we continue to encourage investment in infrastructure and in new fields, although they tend to be smaller. We must also ensure that we encourage new entrants to the North sea, and the tax regime is fundamental in that respect.

I will briefly raise two burning issues that do not get a lot of attention. The first is that we still have a skills problem. A major factor is that we depend hugely on immigrant labour in the North sea. In the main, such immigrants are highly skilled. Two or three years ago, I spoke to a major company that had brought 1,500 skilled engineers over from the Philippines. They had not come as cheap labour; they were essential to the company’s summer maintenance programme. Agreements were reached with the union to pay them the rate for the job, and after it was completed, they went back to the Philippines to do their normal jobs. However, I am hearing about more and more problems in my surgery, although they have nothing to do with the new Government as they have been building up for some years. The smaller companies in the supply chain are finding it particularly difficult to bring people in, while the universities have the same problem. Two universities now operate worldwide to bring in students, particularly from Africa—the students take a first degree in Nigeria or Ghana and then come to Aberdeen to do their master’s degree—but now even Government-sponsored students are finding it difficult to enter the country. That is a serious problem.

Finally—I have probably spoken for a lot longer than I should have—although the Department of Energy and Climate Change is now responsible for the energy industry, who looks after the oil and gas industry as a business? There is a sense in the industry that it has been abandoned by the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, previously the Department of Trade and Industry, and that the Government are no longer focusing on the industry as a business. Will the Minister say a little about that that important issue, which relates to not the industry’s place in the energy industry, but its status as a business like any other?

[Mr Mike Hancock (in the Chair)]

As no other Back Bencher wishes to catch my eye before I invite the Front Benchers to respond, I call Emily Thornberry.

10:26

[Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hancock, and to listen to a debate by Members of Parliament who clearly know a great deal about the industry. That includes the hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine (Sir Robert Smith), the right hon. Member for Gordon (Malcolm Bruce), whom I congratulate on securing this debate, and my hon. Friends the Members for Aberdeen South (Miss Begg), for Aberdeen North (Mr Doran) and for Harrow West (Mr Thomas).

It is vital that the Government give a clear direction to the offshore industries. Given the huge amounts of capital investment required and the long time frames within which the industries work, they need uncertainty like they need a hole in the head. Although I am sure that many people were greatly heartened by the Minister’s assertion last week that the Government will provide leadership on such issues, I suspect that the fears likely to have been inspired by the coalition agreement have not been allayed sufficiently. I remind him that the agreement says specifically that the parties share a conviction that the days of big government are over. These are exactly the circumstances in which we need big government to give direction. Since the coalition was formed, a number of uncertainties have arisen in relation to infrastructure for the offshore industry. In my contribution, I hope to clear up some of those uncertainties by asking several questions.

The economic downturn hurt our oil and gas industry, which already faced high costs, low prices and a lack of cheap credit. In January this year, my right hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling) extended tax relief worth up to £160 million a field to fields west of Shetland. His announcement came at the same time as the announcement of the 26th offshore oil and gas licensing round. I am pleased that the UK North sea oil industry is once again attracting investment, as we heard from hon. Members’ contributions. That is reflected in a great increase in the number of bids made during the licensing round.

In its report last summer, the Select Committee on Energy and Climate Change highlighted the difficulties in accessing infrastructure that some smaller companies experience. The difficulties came to a head when Endeavour International sought arbitration from the Secretary of State regarding the charges levied by Nexen for access to the gas transportation infrastructure. What progress has the Department of Energy and Climate Change made in finding a more equitable solution to that problem?

After the explosion of the Piper Alpha rig in the North sea in 1988, which resulted in 167 fatalities, the UK’s regulatory regime was tightened. I listened with great interest to the highly knowledgeable contribution of my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen North and his account of the day-to-day realities of working in the North sea. I was also greatly interested to hear what a contribution the trade union movement has made to ensuring the safety of the work force.

Since the disasters, licensing and health and safety have been separated in the UK. In light of the Deepwater Horizon spill, I understand that the US will now adopt a similar model. Despite our already robust regulatory regime, the disaster in the gulf of Mexico must give us pause for thought in the development of deep waters off the west coast of Shetland. I welcome the Secretary of State’s decision to increase inspections, which seems sensible. Will the Minister tell us when those increased inspections are likely to commence and will he explain the apparent contradiction between an increased regulatory regime and what was promised by his manifesto? The Conservative party promised to streamline government in its manifesto. I would welcome his comments on the following Conservative party quote:

“We will offer exploration companies a simpler, clearer and more transparent licensing process.”

That is question No. 3.

The UK is the leader in offshore wind capacity. Given that only a few countries have more than 3 GW of offshore wind power, the amount of wind power we have is amazing. The annual amount of offshore wind power generated will soon explode, which shows the huge increase in the proportion of wind in our energy mix. The development of the offshore wind industry has been made possible by the leadership and vision of the previous Government. I obviously hope that such leadership and vision will continue under the new Government.

The contribution of public money and the renewables obligation have ensured the fast development of the industry. In the 2009 Budget, £50 million of funding was made available for the testing of offshore wind facilities and £15 million was provided to the new renewable energy centre in Northumberland to test wind turbine blades. Just this month, the Secretary of State reconfirmed the previous Government’s decision to grant £5 million to Siemens Wind Power. In the March 2010 Budget, the Labour Government also announced a £60 million competition to help ports to develop, to which the right hon. Member for Gordon referred. We wanted ports to have the capacity to help to drag out to sea massive, heavy windmill towers for the turbines to sit on. The amount of money offered might not have been large, but it was of sufficient size to be an important signal, and General Electric and Siemens quickly declared that they would be investing £200 million in the UK’s offshore wind industry. On 15 June, the Minister announced that the ports competition was under review. Will he commit to the level of investment proposed by Labour or is he prepared to risk driving away such investment?

In the case of offshore wind generation, a loss of investor confidence would be an absolute tragedy because, according to the Select Committee on Energy and Climate Change, it is the only low-carbon technology that is ready for large-scale deployment now. Perhaps another way of asking question four is this: what plans does the Minister have for offshore wind infrastructure and for port development? In the energy security debate last week, the Minister was kind enough to agree that the renewables obligation has helped to expand the UK’s offshore wind capacity. Will the Minister commit himself today to continuing with our commitment to renewables obligation certificates?

I would also like the Minister’s help with the offshore grid and how that will develop, because it is particularly important to the infrastructure for offshore industry. The offshore wind industry and network industry are awaiting Ofgem’s decision about what the offshore transmission regime will look like. I understand that the Minister’s party has a different emphasis in terms of how the competitive tenders should be administered. I certainly hope that there will be no undue delay while the coalition decides what to do. An announcement on the offshore grid was expected at the end of June. Does the Minister know what the hold-up is, and when will the industry know what will happen to such a vital part of its infrastructure?

Of course, the offshore grid connects to the onshore grid. We hope that the onshore grid will become a smart grid, which we hope will be informed by smart meters. I would like to ask the Minister a number of questions about smart meters and his ambition to put a smart meter in every home by 2017—not 2016 as promised in the manifesto. I have what I would call a number of sub-questions to question six. How does the Minister expect to install smart meters in every home in the country? How many staff will be required and, if he wants all smart meters to be put in by 2017, when is the process likely to start? Given that the Digital Britain programme will ensure that all hard-to-reach homes are linked by 2012, will he link in that programme with the smart meters installation programme?

[Mr Mike Hancock (in the Chair)]

Order. We are drifting slightly from the subject of the debate .

[Emily Thornberry]

The thrust of my remarks is that there are a number of questions about this aspect of Government policy. My biggest and most important point is that we could clarify many of those questions if the Government were to publish their energy national policy statement. I understand that a consultation on that statement finished in February. Is the statement likely to be radically different from the one that was to be published by the previous Government? Is that the reason for the delay or is there another reason why there might be some delay in the statement being published? The industry needs to have some certainty about what has been happening. Perhaps the Minister is reconsidering the Lib Dem manifesto.

[Mr Mike Hancock (in the Chair)]

Order. That is not the Minister’s responsibility, is it? We need to stick to the subject of infrastructure support for the offshore energy industry. If the hon. Lady confined her comments to that, I would be extraordinarily grateful.

[Emily Thornberry]

Is the Minister considering making a commitment to investing £400 million in refurbishing the shipyards in the north of England and Scotland, so that they can manufacture wind turbines and marine renewables? I understand that that is a commitment of one of the parties in the coalition. If there is a hold-up in publishing the statement, perhaps it is because he is reconsidering that aspect of policy.

10:36

[The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Charles Hendry)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this morning, Mr Hancock. We have had an extremely valuable debate. I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Gordon (Malcolm Bruce) on securing it, raising a wide range of issues and bringing his expertise to the debate. The hon. Member for Aberdeen North (Mr Doran) also brought his expertise to the discussion. I hope that I can give further reassurance and encouragement to them that this is not a partisan issue. I want to work on the subject using the relevant expertise wherever it is found—on both sides of the House and all sides of the industry—to ensure that we can achieve the best possible outcome for this crucial sector of our economy.

My right hon. Friend has rightly understood my reaction to some of his points, particularly those about Scottish infrastructure issues. He will know from the respect agenda that we are committed to working closely with the Scottish Government and Executive to ensure that we do not seek to influence their decisions on those issues, which are devolved. I also reassure him that we are very keen indeed to have a holistic approach to those matters. I have already had an initial discussion with the First Minister and I hope to have a further conversation with him in the next few weeks about how we can most constructively work together in those areas.

That is what the industry is looking for: a seamless Government approach across Departments and different bodies. We will try to ensure that we bring the best endeavours and approach that we possibly can to securing further investment in the sector. From my time as Opposition spokesman on these matters, I hope I have managed to gain some understanding of the issues facing the industry. I assure hon. Members again that I intend to be a regular visitor to Aberdeen. If my right hon. Friend or any of his hon. colleagues feel at any point that I am not talking to the right sections of the industry, I ask him to let me know. I want to ensure that I have as comprehensive a grasp as possible of the issues involved and, as I say, I want to work constructively with those who have great expertise from working in this area.

In initiating the debate, my right hon. Friend spoke about how crucial the sector is to the whole of the UK economy. Although indigenous production is declining, our oil and gas reserves remain a key element of our energy mix. On the reassurance that the hon. Member for Aberdeen North was looking for, there are a number of key pillars of energy policy without which we cannot have energy security—for example, the commitment to the North sea and the development of the UK continental shelf. Nuclear without subsidy is also in that mix, as are coal with carbon capture and renewables.

All those factors are part of a balanced energy policy. I certainly hope to reassure my right hon. Friend that there is every intention of identifying the issues that will help to drive forward investment in the North sea. We will do what is necessary to bring the skills and investment to Britain, because I am very much aware that the companies that are looking to invest are overwhelmingly international. When they consider international opportunities, there is no predisposition for them to come to the United Kingdom. We have to make the strongest possible case for why they should come here instead of taking the many other opportunities that exist around the world.

As my right hon. Friend said, 350,000 jobs in the UK depend on the industry, and a further 100,000 in the supply chain’s thriving export business, with an annual expenditure of about £12 billion. The industry, therefore, makes an extraordinary contribution to the economy. We see no dilemma, however, in the absolute necessity of moving to a low-carbon economy and the desire to get the best out of our indigenous hydrocarbon reserves. That is essential to our energy security and our national prosperity, and particularly to the prosperity of the north-east of Scotland. We will, therefore, work closely with the industry to see what is necessary to encourage further investment in exploration, development and production, while maintaining high standards of management and minimising environmental impacts.

Over recent years, an important role has been played by PILOT, the organisation set up to maintain the dialogue between Government and industry in this area. It has put in place many initiatives to help us to extend the life of the basin, and has significantly contributed to the security of the UK’s energy supply and balance of payments, but we are now looking at how to take that relationship forward. I want to look more at a road map for the future, rather than at setting targets. I am nervous about targets because they tend to be set sufficiently far ahead that nobody is accountable for how they are delivered. I would therefore rather have a more specific road map for what we are jointly expected to do as industry and Government, to try to make this an attractive environment.

I am also keen to broaden involvement in PILOT, to include people from all aspects of the industry. The hon. Member for Aberdeen North talked about the subsea sector, which is an absolutely critical part of the Aberdeen and north-east Scotland economy and an absolutely wonderful example of British engineering and skills providing incredible global leadership in many of these areas. I want to ensure, therefore, that PILOT contains the full range of expertise that is there, and I am also considering how we can increase the regularity of the meetings. As they are currently six months apart, I have a slight tendency to think that there can be a gap before too much is done, and a panic before the next meeting. I want to get a rather more established flow of activity. The guiding principle has to be trying to remove barriers to investment. Where we see barriers to investment, we—with the industry and my parliamentary colleagues—will actively try to remove those barriers, to make this a very attractive place in which to invest.

Many things were done under the previous Government, and historically, to make this an attractive area. We have flexibility in our licensing system to attract the widest possible range of players. The hon. Member for Islington South and Finsbury (Emily Thornberry) asked about the commitment that we made about licensing in our manifesto. That was nothing to do with safety issues. It responded to a concern within the industry about how long the licensing process takes, and considers whether there are ways, taking account of the safety and environmental issues, in which we can tell investors rather more rapidly than at present what the outcome of each licensing regime will be. It is certainly encouraging that the latest round received the greatest number of applications since the first round in 1964, and we hope to be in a position to award licences later this year.

The fallow initiative, put in place by the Department of Energy and Climate Change, continues to encourage companies that are not actively working on blocks or licences to relinquish them so that other companies can be given opportunities to exploit them. To ensure maximum production efficiency from North sea fields, the Department has a stewardship process, which is an annual review in which DECC works with the fields’ owners and looks at individual field performance with the aim of maximising economic recovery and enhancing production levels wherever possible.

We are also considering the whole issue of infrastructure, which has come through very strongly in the contributions to the debate. It is a key part of the coalition agreement. We want to work to improve on that, and we have said that we will consider legislating in that area. I would always prefer that we work through voluntary agreements wherever we can, but we have to recognise that the voluntary agreements in this area involve one party that has overwhelming strength because it owns the infrastructure and essentially has a monopolistic position, and a much smaller company that wishes to have access. We therefore need to find a better way of making that voluntary arrangement work, as I think it often does in other countries, or we will consider taking extra powers to deliver the greater access to the infrastructure that we think will be necessary.

It is absolutely clear that many of the fields now being looked at are more marginal ones, and therefore we will not necessarily be able to attract the huge international oil companies but rather smaller specialist companies, which nevertheless have fantastic records of technological expertise and safety. We therefore have to ensure that the regime is appropriate for those smaller companies.

Several questions have been asked about the fiscal situation. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Gordon will be aware, those are always matters for the Treasury, which rightly guards its leadership on such issues very carefully. I can certainly tell him, however, that there have already between discussions between the Prime Minister, the Chancellor and the Scottish Executive about the fossil fuel levy. We understand the requests that there should be a higher ability to draw down funding from that levy and the Treasury is considering the issues with an open mind.

[Malcolm Bruce]

Allowing for the respect agenda, does the Minister not agree that it would be beneficial, before any agreement were concluded, to have a clear understanding, at least in broad terms, of how the money was likely to be used? To put it at its crudest, the purpose would not be fulfilled if the money were simply to disappear into the block and not benefit the support for the offshore renewables industry in the north-east of Scotland.

[Charles Hendry]

My understanding is that that is the case that has been put to the Treasury by the Scottish Executive, and that they want access to more of that funding to facilitate such investment. Clearly, these are details that have to be sorted out, but I am very encouraged indeed that the Treasury is keen to approach that with an open mind.

[Mr Doran]

My understanding is that the money is not passed to the Scottish Executive because they have consistently failed to put forward projects on which to spend the money.

[Charles Hendry]

As I say, there is much devil in the detail in these matters and the Treasury is taking forward the discussions. I am, however, encouraged by the approach taken in general.

About 45% of all the UK’s oil and gas-related jobs are in Scotland, and many, as we have heard, are in Aberdeen. I know from my own experience how committed that work force is. I was there most recently just a few weeks ago, and went through the helicopter training exercise. They decided that they should not yet dunk me in the water, that perhaps I was too new a Minister. I am not sure that any Minister has gone through the dunking process, and I have made a rather rash commitment to be the first. It is incredibly important that as policy makers we understand how the industry addresses these issues, and, as far as we are concerned, there should be no short cuts on safety. The visit brought home the great measures that have been put in place since the helicopter tragedies, to ensure that we have the toughest safety standards in the helicopter transportation that operates there. I went out to the Beryl platform, which I was particularly keen to see because it is an old platform still operated by its original operators, but drilling again for new reserves. It is a very good example of how, after some decades of operation, there is still much life and activity.

We travelled nearly 200 miles from Aberdeen airport to the rig, passing over two structures that had human life on them, and the very often incredible isolation and the bravery of the people who work there also came home to me very clearly. I travelled out there on a nice June day, when there was a little ripple in the water, and I cannot imagine what it would be like in a cold February gale. The landing spot for the helicopter looked small enough in those conditions. The hon. Member for Aberdeen North talked about making several attempts to land when he went out there some time ago. It really brings home to us the courage, the expertise and the global skill set that we have in the North sea, something to which we should always pay tribute.

I am certainly always willing to talk to the trade unions on these matters. Safety is not an issue for industry versus workers. There is a great recognition that for the industry, it is absolutely critical for everybody, every business and every organisation working with it. I will always be keen to find reasons to talk to the people who represent that work force.

Our approach to North sea regulation is among the most robust in the world, and our record there is strong, but the tragedy in the gulf of Mexico has to give us pause for thought. As we move into deeper waters west of Scotland, there is every reason to increase our vigilance. We have announced that we will double the number of annual inspections and increase by one half the number of inspectors. There is the inevitable time span before they are recruited, but the process is already under way.

Right hon. and hon. Members should be in no doubt that, if there is evidence from the reviews of the gulf of Mexico tragedy that requires us again to improve security and health and safety measures, we will do so. We are determined that the safety regime in the North sea will be the toughest operating anywhere. I am pleased that we will do that in partnership with the industry. The Oil Spill Prevention and Response Advisory Group is an industry-led initiative that does critical work in looking at these issues, just as it looked at the measures necessary to improve safety after the tragedies involving helicopters. We are very much in debt to it for its leadership in ensuring that we introduce measures in this area. Again, I welcome the role that the trade unions play in ensuring that workers’ voices are heard and represented.

There has been discussion about other ways in which the North sea can be a global centre for international excellence in energy infrastructure. Foremost among those will be offshore wind. We recognise that the United Kingdom is now a global leader in offshore wind, but much needs to be done if we are to meet the targets that have been set. The aspirations are high, and a great deal more has to happen if we are to get the right investment and infrastructure in place to achieve them. Some £15 billion of new investment is required in transmission assets to connect offshore wind farms to the onshore grid.

I am determined that we roll out the programme in a more structured way. Again, the Government want an approach that focuses on the problems, so we will look at where there are barriers to investment. We see working constructively and jointly with the industry as the best way to get around those issues.

My right hon. Friend spoke about the need for more ships, which are critical to this work. With the number of ships available in the world at present, we simply cannot put in place the number of turbines necessary to meet the aspirations. Grid infrastructure and connectivity will be fundamental to that.

The hon. Member for Islington South and Finsbury asked why the announcement has been delayed. There was every opportunity for the previous Government to make an announcement. Not only was there a little letter in a drawer which said that there was no money left, but there was a big pile of paper labelled, “Too difficult to think about.” There is a range of complexities, and different views from different sectors of the industry. We have been actively looking at the full range of grid and transmission issues with a view to announcing a decision in the near future. We absolutely understand that these are critical issues for the industry, and we are determined to give early clarity.

[Emily Thornberry]

I am sure that the Minister is aware that a date at the end of June was set for an announcement on the offshore grid. Why the delay, and when will we get an announcement?

[Charles Hendry]

We are trying to ensure that we have cohesion across the whole range of issues relating to the grid, including the offshore transmission system, transmission access and transmission charging, which is particularly critical as far as Scotland is concerned. I want to ensure that we have a complete response to all the issues involved as we try to move forward in this area. The hon. Lady will not have to wait much longer. I understand that the industry attaches a great deal of importance to the sector, and this is very much at the top of the list of things that we are seeking to resolve.

Questions were asked about the ports project. It has not been suspended or cancelled, but, within the framework of the comprehensive spending review, we are trying to ensure that all such major projects are handled in the most sensible and constructive way, to deliver the best response and to make the best use of taxpayers’ money. We are committed to taking the work forward, but it will be handled within the network of the comprehensive spending review.

We will also be looking at how we take forward work on carbon capture and storage, which offers many partnership opportunities. Some of the most extraordinary academic work on CCS in the world is being carried out in Scottish universities. People such as Professor Jon Gibbins and Professor Stuart Hazeldine at the university of Edinburgh are doing wonderful work to ensure that we lead the world in that technology. I want to work closely with them in ensuring that we make the best and strongest case for Britain in that respect.

There was a question about the working relationship with the Crown Estate. We believe that the regime is working at present. There is clearly a difference between the role of the Crown Estate as the landlord and the role of the Government who, as the regulator, are able to issue licences. If there is evidence that the regime is not working, we will certainly look at how the matter can be addressed.

The hon. Member for Islington South and Finsbury asked about our continuing commitment to renewables obligation certificates. We have said that we are looking at introducing feed-in tariffs. We indicated prior to the election that there is a strong case for using feed-in tariffs for the third round of offshore wind because investors have told us that that would be more attractive. We have also been told that feed-in tariffs would be more attractive for marine technologies, so we are looking at the most appropriate balance between the renewables obligation and feed-in tariffs to see how we can best stimulate investment. At the core of all that we are doing is a desire to make this the most attractive place to invest in energy infrastructure, and that applies to oil and gas, nuclear, coal with carbon capture and renewables.

The debate has touched on many critical issues, and there is an overwhelming sense on both sides of the House that the industry will continue to make an enormous contribution to the British economy. The North sea sector is sometimes seen as an old industry, but it is, in fact, a ground-breaking industry in the development and application of technology. Probably only space travel has the same level of involvement.

Let us look at what is happening in the gulf of Mexico at present, where BP is drilling down 18,000 feet below the surface of the water, through perhaps 13,000 feet of rock. It intends to intersect a pipe that is just a few inches across in order to stop the flow of oil from the well. We should pay tribute to it for the work that it is doing and the cap that it appears to be putting in place successfully. The technology involved is extraordinary.

In all our debates about the industry, we should see it as an industry of the future which has an extraordinarily important role to play. I can say to right hon. and hon. Members who have spoken this morning that, even though I may be a Conservative Member of Parliament from the south-east of England, I have an absolute commitment to being a champion of the industry. I want to visit Aberdeen regularly and know about all aspects of the industry. I want to know the industry and the trade union sides, and to work with both of them to deliver the best possible outcomes for investment. We have an absolute national interest in ensuring that we secure the best from our indigenous resources.

We have had an outstanding debate this morning, which has raised many critical issues. I look forward to working closely over the coming months and years with right hon. and hon. Members, who have great expertise in the sector, and with the companies and people in their constituencies who work in this sector and deliver so much in terms of our energy security.

[Mr Mike Hancock (in the Chair)]

Thank you, Minister. I thank all those Members who have taken part in the debate for the courtesy that they have shown to the Chair and for their indulgence of each other. I wish you much luck with your dunking exercise, Mr Hendry. I hope that the safety procedures are all in place when you do it, by the way. I am sure that the whole House would regret any mishap. Do not forget the wet suit.

As we are now all in place, we can move on to the next debate. Before we do so, several Members have indicated that they want to take part. I want to try to get as many in as possible, so I ask that interventions be short and to the point, and that replies be quick as well. I ask for the indulgence of the Minister and the Opposition spokesman: could they give me an indication at some stage of how long they will want to speak so that I can ensure that we can get in as many people as possible?

Housing Benefit

Tuesday 13th July 2010 Westminster Hall

10:59

[Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)]

As ever, it is a pleasure to server under your chairmanship, Mr Hancock.

I am mindful that a number of colleagues have approached me to say that they are keen to speak in the debate—that is an indication of how serious the Government’s recent proposals are—so I do not propose to go into detailed background about housing benefit. The Minister, along with my hon. Friend the Member for Westminster North (Ms Buck), is one of the most expert Members of Parliament on this subject. None of us need a history lesson on housing benefit, and I hope that the Minister will focus on answering the serious points that we all need to raise.

The cap on housing benefit levels that was announced in the Budget is devastating for London and for Londoners. Only four London boroughs are completely unaffected. I do not have time to go into some important general issues to do with the provision of affordable housing, so I will instead focus on the impacts in relation to housing benefit in Hackney and more widely.

In addition to the cap on benefit levels, we will see an impact due to the local housing allowance level being limited to the 30th percentile of a local reference rent. There will also be a devastating impact due to the perverse proposal to impose a 10% cut in benefit for those who are unemployed for more than a year, which will be particularly hard for young people aged 18 to 24, who are among those hit by the highest levels of unemployment. That is a particular concern of organisations such as Catch22, which is a charity that works with young people.

More than 650,000 homes are rented in the private sector in London, so this subject touches the lives of many people. More than a third of those homes are rented to families who receive the local housing allowance. High rents in London are not a new phenomenon and are driven largely by a housing shortage. Figures provided by London Councils show that when the local housing allowance was introduced in 2008, the rent charge for three-bedroom properties in central London was £700, which is twice the level of the proposed cap. Looking further back to 2005, the then local reference rent, which excluded the top end of the market, recorded the rental market as follows: £435 a week for two-bedroom properties; £546 a week for three-bedroom properties; and £625 a week for four-bedroom properties, all of which are above the cap recently proposed—some seven years later. It seems that the Government are making decisions without looking at any evidence or at history. The lack of affordable alternatives in London meant that the previous Government’s desire to achieve a reduction in rents through the introduction of the local housing allowance was not fulfilled, because local housing allowance rates have risen as they chase the ever-increasing level of rent in the wider market.

According to a parliamentary answer, 14,000 households will be affected by the changes. The Minister has acknowledged the impact. We need him to tell us what measures will ameliorate those changes, if the Government go ahead with them. I should like the Minister to explain that figure and to say how the private rented housing market will be able to cope with the likely upheaval that it suggests. In addition, he needs to address the impact on families at a human level.

There is an assumption that people will be able to move to lower-price properties, but the pace and scale of change will present a challenge in that regard, even without the huge impact that there will be on children and families, and on low-paid workers. It is important to ask where that low-rent property will be available. It will not be available in my constituency. Will my constituents be forced to move to the borough of Barking and Dagenham, which is no doubt delightful, but not convenient for work and schools for my constituents with Hackney connections? The impact, including the social impact, on those few boroughs that will be unaffected could be huge.

For those listening to this debate who are not aware of the situation or are not from London, I point out that all central London boroughs are affected, including that covered by my constituency and that of my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott)—the whole of Hackney—as well as Barnet, Brent, Ealing, Haringey, Hounslow, Lambeth, Merton, Richmond and Wandsworth. The changes will have a particular impact in London.

It is interesting that the Government have professed their intention to get rid of the Minister for London. That is all very well, but I believe that there is a spokesman—or spokesperson—for London. However, I wonder whether the hon. Member for Wimbledon (Stephen Hammond) has been asleep on the job because it seems that this measure has been advanced without any understanding of its wider impact, particularly in London, which is the driver of our economy. The Mayor of London has also written to the Government to outline his concern.

[Mr Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con)]

Does not the hon. Lady accept that the level of housing benefit—and how it is set—affects the rental market? The National Landlords Association has said:

“Landlords will have to look at their profit and loss and decide how much they can afford to cut their rents by.”

The hon. Lady will have seen examples in the Evening Standard last night of properties being rented at almost double the market value to housing benefit tenants.

[Meg Hillier]

The hon. Gentleman brings me nicely to my next point, and I shall deal with his second point in a moment. Let me be clear that I am not saying that all is perfect with housing benefit, as the Minister, from his previous incarnation as an academic in this area, knows all too well. Although I have been unable to source the reference, I believe that the current Leader of House famously said, “Let housing benefit take the strain,” when a previous Government made changes following which social housing rents increased.

[Ms Karen Buck (Westminster North) (Lab)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that there are grave perils in establishing a policy that affects one million claimants on the basis of what we know for a fact are some 30 extreme cases of the kind quoted by the hon. Member for North East Hertfordshire (Mr Heald)?

[Meg Hillier]

I agree. We must not lose sight of the majority of our constituents. Good law is not made on the basis of rare exceptions.

The hon. Member for North East Hertfordshire (Mr Heald) raised an interesting point about housing benefit levels in the private rented sector. Some private landlords have been in touch with me to say that they are concerned that they will no longer wish to rent to anybody who is either in receipt of benefit or likely to be. Given the current economic situation, the group of people who are likely to be in receipt of housing benefit will grow, because many people could be affected over the next few years. We heard yesterday about cuts to the NHS, and job losses are coming from all directions. That will mean that for many people in the private rented sector who want stay in their home and their community, the only option will be to look to housing benefit to take the strain.

[Mr Heald]

Does not somebody have to speak up for the hard-pressed taxpayer? Average earnings—take-home pay—in this country are £374 a week, but the hon. Lady is arguing that people should be able to rent properties for amounts hugely above that.

[Meg Hillier]

There is an interesting divide in the Chamber—not on party lines, but on London and rest of the country lines. Those of us who represent London see the reality of the situation. Yes, the housing benefit bill has increased, but tinkering in such a way is not the solution. The subsidy needs reform, but it is flexible, and that flexibility is useful. In the current climate, with job losses looming, we tinker with such flexibility at our peril. If wholesale reform was being proposed, we might want to look at that, but at the moment we are talking about tinkering with the system in a way that damages London.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

We have a history of using market forces to force down rents, which clearly has not worked, as the riposte by the hon. Member for North East Hertfordshire (Mr Heald) showed.

[Meg Hillier]

One reason why that has not worked is housing shortages. However, the self-denying ordinance that I set out at the beginning of my speech means that I cannot talk about wider issues.

Flexibility is important, but it is being abused by the Government, who are proposing changes overnight that might be in place from this autumn—I look to the Minister to give me guidance about that. People who have signed a six-month tenancy or a tenancy with a six-month break clause, for example, will have little option but to fund that shortfall somehow, as I shall address in more detail in a moment.

There is also a proposal to link housing benefit to consumer price index inflation, which will have a big impact on tenants and landlords. Research by Shelter has shown that CPI increased by 15% between 1999 and 2007, while there was a 44% increase in average rents. Had the local housing allowance been set to increase in line with CPI in 1999, it would now be 20% below the level needed to rent the average property. Whichever way the cut is made, people on low incomes—those people are often working—or on benefits are expected to fund the shortfall from their income to stay living in their own homes.

The impact on children and families is pertinent in my constituency, because some 22% of residents are under 16 and a lot of families need homes. People often come to my surgery because they are unable to access social housing. They are advised that they should look at what can be provided in the private rented sector, and I am sure that colleagues are in a similar position. More than one million children—a third of them in London—are living in overcrowded conditions. The cap will only exacerbate that problem because families will be forced to move into smaller, cheaper properties, and perhaps to push out their teenage children as they get older so that they can afford the rent.

I need to touch on a problem in the north of Hackney—not in my constituency, but in that of my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney North and Stoke Newington—where orthodox Jewish families will be severely hit. Such families typically have more than four children, and many of them live in the private rented sector, so the limit on benefit will have a devastating impact. The council and social landlords in Hackney will be unable to take the strain, so I need answers from the Minister on how councils will be supported in dealing with that.

Of the nearly 40,000 people in Hackney currently in receipt of housing benefit, just over 9,000 live in the private rented sector. Two thirds are in receipt of benefit, but one third are working tenants, many of whom would like to continue to work but, as a result of the proposals, will find a serious shortfall between their rent and the benefit provided for it, and will have very little income to make up the difference. In the three bands for the broad rental market areas that operate in my constituency—inner east, inner north and London central—all properties with more than two bedrooms are above the Government’s proposed cap. That is ludicrous. It means that those in Hackney living in a two, three or four-bedroom property—or a larger property—will have nowhere to go. They could go out of Hackney, but there are not many boroughs they could go to. I am not entirely clear how the Government propose to ensure that people can stay living in London—and, crucially, working in London and supporting its economy—because many people need that benefit to subsidise their rent so that they are able to live locally to their jobs.

[Lyn Brown (West Ham) (Lab)]

I agree.

[Meg Hillier]

Does my hon. Friend wish to make an intervention?

[Mr Mike Hancock (in the Chair)]

Order. Do not look for them.

[Meg Hillier]

There was some agitation behind me, Mr Hancock, and I thought that my hon. Friend wanted to intervene.

We must also consider the annual reductions in housing benefit payments. I can see why the Government see that as appealing from the point of view of money, but the impact on those affected is enormous—1,642 claimants will be affected by the bedroom size proposals in my borough alone, which is devastating. Shelter has kindly done some research that shows that the average three-bedroom household in inner-east London, which is a band in my constituency, will need to find an additional £35 a week to keep a roof over their heads. I do not know how people on the minimum wage or benefits can do that. For example, how will a pensioner surviving on £98 a week find that additional £35? Perhaps they would not be in a three-bedroom property, but they would still have to find some extra money. How will someone on the minimum wage—£218 a week—find that additional money?

Almost half of local housing allowance claimants already have shortfalls of almost £100 a month. Shelter is concerned, as am I, that the cuts could push many households over the edge. I have great faith in the Minister, because he is an expert in the area, and he has a great opportunity to do something positive for housing benefit. I hope that he is not a fig leaf for the coalition’s proposals, that he will genuinely look at the problems that the proposals throw up, and that he will come back with solutions that will, at best, ameliorate those problems, or delay them while better work is done to lessen the impact.

It is rare to have a Minister who is an expert. Governments often seem to conspire to put people in office who do not know much about their subject, but in this case we have a Minister who knows what he is talking about and can make a difference. I urge him to look into the matter with all vigour. I would also like him to answer some specific questions. What is the timetable for the welfare reform Bill, and are there any plans for the implementation of its measures, should the House pass it? Were it to go through the House in the autumn at a fast pace, when would the measures be brought in?

Will the Minister look at the following matters, which would not require primary legislation through that Bill: the reduction from the median to the 30th percentile for claimants of local housing allowance; the cap for each property size; the increase in discretionary housing payment, which I will touch on in a moment; and the change to non-dependent deductions? The Government can change the rules with a stroke of the pen, as we saw in the Budget, but that stroke of the pen devastates my constituents and many others. Is the Minister planning to consult on that, because we have seen very little consultation? We have not even seen an impact assessment. Rather than having evidence-based policy, for which the Government parties pressed when they were in opposition, it seems that policy is being made before information is provided to back it up. That is not the right way to go about things, and I hope that an impact assessment will soon be forthcoming.

I must mention the discretionary housing payment in the short time I have left. The Chartered Institute of Housing has conducted an analysis that shows that the suggested additional £40 million, which to the average man or woman might sound like a lot of money, does not go very far. If it is spent solely on making up the shortfall in rents due to the proposed drop, it would support only 4% of claimants facing the drop from the 50th to the 30th percentile for one year. It is just not enough. I do not know what will happen in my borough when people turn up to the housing office looking for alternatives, having been kicked out of their private rented properties. The borough will find it difficult to deal with the private landlords with whom it already has relationships, because they will not be keen to take people on and there will not be enough social housing. I hope that the Minister will address that point.

I am confused about some of the proposals and hope that the Minister can clarify them for me. I have already mentioned the welfare reform Bill, but what is the timetable for the more general changes and for the publication of an impact assessment, and what will that impact assessment cover? What is the rationale behind the proposals? We see a Government who are joined up in their coalition, and we have talked a lot about joined-up government over the past 13 years. As a former Minister, I am aware of the challenges that that presents, but to see such a disjoint in one Department is quite extraordinary. On one hand the Secretary of State is telling social housing tenants, “Move for the work and travel around,” and on the other hand private rental tenants are being forced to move, not necessarily to where the work is, but to poorer, cheaper places. It would therefore be helpful to hear the rationale behind the proposals. Will the Minister be candid and explain what discussion he, as an expert on the matter, has had with the Secretary of State?

What transitional arrangements will be in place for affected families? Will the change be sudden, because at the moment it seems that there will be no such arrangements? What support will councils be given, particularly with regard to discretionary housing payments? What will be the impact more generally on housing needs teams, which are already stretched? What conversations has the Minister held with the Department for Communities and Local Government?

If the Government’s apparent theory is backed by action and we see an influx of tenants seeking cheaper properties, certain boroughs will be particularly badly affected, so what support will there be for those boroughs? My colleagues, undoubtedly, will want to refer to that concern. Will the Minister share with us any analysis of an impact assessment on the private rented sector? I am not sure whether that will come in the impact assessment that has been proposed, but I have already heard landlords say that they will not rent to people on benefits. Will he tell us candidly what the chances are that we will make any difference by banging the drum about that in the debate? Have the Government made up their mind? Is that the style of the new Government, or is the Minister genuinely listening?

The Conservative Mayor of London and the Labour chair of London Councils have joined together—in the spirit of coalition government, I suppose—and have written to the Government to point out the error that they have made. In seeking to grab a headline and make a saving, the Government will have a huge impact on our capital. I do not claim that housing benefit is perfect, but to change it in such a way is just not the way to proceed. Where is the voice for London in the Government? I hope that the Minister will hear what we are saying today, as many London Members are present to hammer home our points. On this occasion, I agree with Boris, which is not something that I expect to say regularly. At least we have some voice for London through him and through Mayor Jules Pipe, who chairs London Councils.

In the past, Westminster council sold homes to discourage poor people from living in the area. Now we see a Secretary of State colluding in that by depriving lower-income households of the opportunity to live in whole swathes of London, unless they qualify for social housing. We can draw our own conclusions about what is happening, and you, Mr Hancock, are experienced enough for me not to have to lay it out. The quiet man is roaring in his own way, and it is our constituents and London’s economy that will suffer.

[Mr Mike Hancock (in the Chair)]

Thank you for being short and to the point. Hon. Members will have to be fair to each other, because some will be squeezed out of the debate if others talk for too long.

11:19

[Mr Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier) on securing the debate. We have worked together on a problem in our communities concerning the Crown Estate, along with the right hon. Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Frank Dobson), and will continue to do so. I have significant sympathy with some of her concerns, particularly those that relate to London. I fear that elements of the proposals are similar to those adopted by previous Governments, of all colours, and that there is a lack of understanding on specific issues that affect the capital and that an entirely nationwide approach cannot necessarily focus on. Many people will argue that if we remove the opportunity of central London life for the unemployed or the poor, we risk losing the fundamental character of the inner city and perhaps ghettoising the outer capital where families would inevitably be placed.

A housing benefit cap is not about driving people out of London; it is about bringing rents back into the real world, and saying that a system that pays for accommodation that is well out of the reach of ordinary taxpayers is wrong. That system is largely absurd. It has been broken, and become more absurd as time goes by. I am not focusing on Daily Mail articles that appear day by day, because we all know that those exceptions do not prove the rule. None the less, they reflect some of the reality as well as the anger felt by many people who take responsibility for their lives and do not have a lot of children and then throw themselves on the mercy of the state through housing benefit or subsidised housing. There must be fairness.

London will continue to have vibrant estates, and its housing association properties and relatively cheap private sector offering will probably come within the reach of many ordinary workers when the artificially raised rents that have in part been caused by the housing benefit system fall. The issue is not just about the regulated rents of recent years, but goes back some years. There is no doubt that some rents have been artificially raised over the last few years because private landlords have known what they can get away with. That has led to some of the current absurdities.

[Ms Buck]

On that specific point, is the hon. Gentleman aware of the proportion of private sector tenancies in London where a claimant is on housing benefit? He is making the point that the market is distorted by housing benefit, yet housing benefit claimants make up only a small proportion of total private sector leasing, so why should that be the case?

[Mr Field]

It distorts the overall price level that landlords—often absentee landlords, of which there are far more—reckon they can get away with. That has a distorting effect on the rest of the free market in this area.

Westminster city council—my local authority and the hon. Lady’s—supports the cap even though the announced changes are estimated in the worst case scenario to cost local authorities some £8.1 million this year. That reflects another element of the absurdity: the expense of long-term temporary accommodation contracts that the council was encouraged to enter into under the previous cap regime.

[Ms Buck]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that two years ago, when the Labour Government proposed changes to the broad market rental area that would have impacted on Westminster, the council not only opposed that and asked us to lobby against it, but said that it would seek judicial review?

[Mr Field]

I do. The hon. Lady and I have done work and spoken in debates here over many years, but it is absurd that there is a massive incentive for local authorities to work within that system, and that they will lose a significant amount because of the cap system.

The local connection guidelines must change because, again, there is a phenomenal incentive for people to come to London, particularly central London. It is understandable that people from established communities abroad would want to be in central London, and I share some of the concerns of Opposition Members about tampering with ideas about local connections. However, in relation to the requirement on a local authority to provide housing, it has been suggested that we consider a three-year period instead of the existing six months out of 12. There is no doubt that central London remains an extremely attractive place in which to live, and it is important to ensure that only families most in need of temporary accommodation are here.

I understand the knock-on effects—I see the hon. Member for West Ham (Lyn Brown) shaking her head. I understand that part of the difficulty is that wherever the boundary is drawn the knock-on effect will mean that in Barking, Dagenham, Newham and so on there will be many more people, and that is equally a wrong way forward to a large extent. I hope that we will implement the caps for new claimants with immediate effect, because nothing would be worse than having too long a gap, such that there would be an incentive for people to enter into long-term contracts before the cap comes into effect.

I appreciate that many hon. Members want to speak, but I want to provide a bit of balance. I am broadly supportive of what the Government are trying to do, but they must consider seriously the specific problems in London, which I am sure will be articulated elsewhere.

It is only right to put another side of the story. A housing provider in my constituency—St Mungo’s—is dedicated to providing a recovery solution for homeless people, and I have worked closely with it during my time as an MP. We know that finding employment must be part of homeless people’s recovery. St Mungo’s welcomes the Government’s promise of further support for those who live a long way from the labour market. The people it works with have many problems, which have contributed to their joblessness and homelessness. It is worried about the announcement that jobseeker’s allowance claimants will have their housing allowance cut by 10% if they have not found jobs within a year.

Many Conservative Members welcome the review of the housing benefit system, because its flaws have become glaringly obvious to those of us who frequently deal with housing cases. I probably speak for all London Members when I say that housing and immigration are the two biggest elements of our work load. Given the great financial straits facing our country, the case for reform is more compelling, but I share the concern of the hon. Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch, and I hope that the Minister will respond to it. Urgent as the need for reform is, there must be proper consultation and an emphasis on the issues particular to the capital. I fear that if we do not change the system, we risk undermining the most compelling aspect of the case for reform, which is that the measures must be primarily about fairness, with hard work rewarded and the truly vulnerable protected.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Mike Hancock (in the Chair)]

Order. If hon. Members who wish to speak do so for four minutes, I will be able to call nearly everyone.

11:26

[Glenda Jackson (Hampstead and Kilburn) (Lab)]

It is pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mr Field), and my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier) who has laid out as a basis for the debate the numbers and figures. I will not reiterate what has already been established.

What I find most shocking about the Government’s proposals is that the previous Conservative Government laid out a lesson of precisely what not to do, and the present Government are intent on repeating what happened last time. The suggestion that if people are decanted from the centre of London it can thrive is absurd. The services on which we are all dependent in the city are dependent on people who work extremely hard, not unusually for the minimum wage. They will certainly never be able to afford to buy a property in London and are finding it almost impossible to rent an affordable property in London. One of my most recent constituency cases involves a man with four in his family. He earns £361 a week and his rent is £351 a week. How is that family supposed to survive?

I want to revert to my opening statement about history being rerun. Last time there was a Conservative Government, they decanted people to seaside resorts, which experienced difficulties because those people had no employment and nothing to do, and that became an increasing tragedy. This Government have said that they are committed to families. I would argue about their definition of what constitutes a family, but the basis of that argument is that children thrive best in a stable family environment. The proposal for housing benefit will destroy families.

I revert again to my history lesson. What happened was that families were placed in absolutely appalling bed-and-breakfast conditions. That will happen again, because local authorities still have a statutory duty to put a roof over the heads of children. They may either put families into bed-and-breakfast accommodation, or they may attempt to take the children into care. Will someone tell me precisely how much we will save if thousands of children are taken into local authority care and their parents are left to wander the streets? We will see an increase in the sort of homelessness that I thought so shocked all political parties that they would never allow such a situation to arise again. But it will arise again, because the Government are trying to sell to the British electorate the argument—we heard it not in harsh terms, but it has been presented by the Government—that the majority of people who claim benefit, particularly housing benefit, are scroungers and wastrels who do not want to work and are battening on the backs of the majority of hard-working British people who do not claim housing benefit. That is simply not the case. There are people who work all the hours that God sends and are still dependent on housing benefit in order to house their families.

I hope that the Minister will reply to all the questions put to him by my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch. This policy is a monstrous rush towards what I believe will be the creation of serious social damage to some of the most vulnerable people in our society. I have already mentioned children, but there are a number of pensioners in my constituency who are dependent on housing benefit. If their homes are taken away, where will they live? Many of them do not have families who can house them. Are we going to put them into a residential home? Are we going back to the good old days of the Poor Law, where a husband and wife could be separated and put in separate buildings? I know that sounds fanciful, but if the Government’s policy is carried through as they propose, I do not believe that it is extreme to see that happening.

I have not mentioned those people who claim housing benefit because they are disabled. Such disability may not always be physical; it could be a mental disability. The policy must be rethought. The Government claim to be hard but fair none the less, and they have a duty to ensure that their approach to this issue is fair.

Lastly, on landlords, I will not be the only Member of the House who has received a briefing from a landlords association that wants to see its properties turned into houses in multiple occupation. My local authority—along with every local authority in central London, I think—has instituted policies to prevent that from happening, because properties are needed that can house more than just one individual. In my constituency, we need to house larger families, and the housing stock available at the moment is utterly inadequate. The bottom line is that we as a nation should be building more homes, but the Government have put a total block on the funding available to the Homes and Communities Agency to build more properties, so that is apparently not going to happen. That is a long-term issue, but in the short term the Government must rethink this scandalous and disgraceful policy because it punishes the most vulnerable people most harshly.

11:32

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier) on securing this debate. This is not just a London problem. Most, if not all, housing policy for Wales is devolved to the Welsh Assembly Government, with the obvious exception of housing benefit. The current system of housing provision clearly fails to provide for the warm, dry, clean spaces that most people would like to live in—MPs have recently had the experience of looking for rented properties—and that has been the case for decades. I do not want to enter into a history lesson, but I became interested in housing in the ’70s and ’80s, and there is a clear contrast between housing policy in the ’40s, ’50s, ’60s and ’70s, and recent policy with its emphasis on profits, ownership and selling off assets.

There are particular circumstances in Wales. In my part of Wales, the question of housing is exacerbated by the huge number of second homes. In my constituency around Caernarfon there are enough empty properties to rehouse every homeless person and nearly everybody who lives in substandard housing. However, those houses stand empty.

The Welsh Assembly Government have been trying to do something about that problem, and in the last Parliament a legislative competence order on housing was discussed. Three Conservative MPs on the Welsh Affairs Committee turned up expressly to vote the order down—I see that they are not present in the Chamber today. They took the opportunity to vote down that provision, and the transfer of powers over this vital issue to the Welsh Assembly Government was blocked. There has now been a U-turn. The Welsh Assembly Government lack overall control over housing benefit and work on only part of the jigsaw. They work effectively and have a well-thought-out policy, but the part of housing provision that is a mess—housing benefit—is controlled from this place.

If we are to reduce the housing benefit bill in the long term, we must plan to provide proper homes of a good standard to the people who need them, and not depend on the vagaries of the market. We must build more affordable homes, and in Wales we must change the VAT system so that houses that are clearly substandard are brought up to a proper standard. VAT is charged on repairs to houses whereas it is not charged on new build. In Wales, we need to devolve power so that the Welsh Assembly Government can take full control of the issue. My question to the Minister is this: what discussions on housing benefit took place with the Welsh Assembly Government before the announcement of this policy?

11:36

[Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab)]

It seems a long time since the Budget, and this policy on housing was probably the worst of a number of shocks on that day, particularly for London MPs. We have had time to reflect, and we have seen a pattern of announcements. If we look at the announcement about Building Schools for the Future last week, or that about the NHS yesterday, we see a systematic attack on the welfare state, and major changes that are being done without consultation or advice. To my mind, that looks like the legal definition of recklessness—we are either giving no thought to the consequences of our actions, or we are giving thought to those consequences, but pressing on regardless. I would be interested to know whether the Minister has given this policy any thought. He has a reputation for doing that.

I do not know whether this degree of recklessness is the new politics, or whether the Conservatives expect the Liberal Democrats to hold them back. There is little sign of that at present given the rather slavish and shameless way in which the Liberal Democrats adhere to those policies, which are attacks on the poorest communities in this country. I hope that the Minister will speak not only on behalf of the Government, but on behalf of his party to explain how he can defend his actions. He would be well advised to take advice.

Citizens Advice has produced an excellent brief for this debate that claims that there will be a marked increase in poverty, debt, rent arrears and homelessness, as well as negative impacts on family relationships. The National Housing Federation has estimated that homelessness will rise by 200,000. I feel most strongly about the fact that this policy will destroy mixed communities in London. We are proud of those communities, and not only poorer people but better-off people enjoy living in places such as Shepherd’s Bush, Hammersmith and many other areas in London. Such areas have a uniqueness that is not found in many other countries in that people of all backgrounds, incomes, races and religions live together harmoniously. This policy is destroying that. It is just one way in which the Conservative party has sought to destroy the communities that I represent, but is a particularly pernicious way that will lead to the return of Rachmanism in London. It will lead to appalling housing conditions being promoted by the Government, which is something that I hoped never to see in this country. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier) on securing this debate. As she said, this policy is full of contradictions and is driving out those people who can get work and who, to a large extent, do work in London.

Given the limited time available I will not repeat what my hon. Friend the Member for Hampstead and Kilburn (Glenda Jackson) has said, but there is a myth that people in receipt of housing benefit are scroungers and that they are staying out of work. Shelter stated:

“The vast majority of housing benefit claimants are either pensioners, those with disabilities, people caring for a relative or hardworking people on low incomes, and only 1 in 8 people who receive housing benefit is unemployed.”

There is a myth that housing benefit is generous, although half of people who receive it pay an average of £23 a week towards their rent. There is a myth that people are living in luxury. We know the stories that Tory central office plants in the Evening Standard, which is frankly a disgraceful way to pillory the millions of people who are reliant in some degree on housing benefit in this country. At present, the level of accommodation is low.

The biggest myth of all is that people choose to live in that way. Almost everybody I know who receives housing benefit would prefer to have a secure or assured tenancy in an affordable home. To give some figures, the director of finance of Hammersmith and Fulham council estimated that initially the cap would mean 750 families being unable to afford to live in the borough—I suspect many more once we have taken into account other factors, such as the six different changes. The cap alone means thousands of people not being able to live where their families live, where they have grown up, where their work is or where their children go to school. In comparison, in the past two years the Conservative council has given planning consent for only four new affordable rented homes, although even that scheme is in doubt.

Do not blame the people who are receiving housing benefit for the problem. I blame Conservative councils in particular, but also Liberal Democrat ones. [Interruption.] My hon. Friend the Member for Islington South and Finsbury (Emily Thornberry) agrees about the Liberal Democrats. Those councils have singularly failed through the planning process and their own means to build affordable homes in London over the past five years. What I find particularly pernicious—

[Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Slaughter]

I do not think that I have time—I would like to, but it would be unfair on other people.

A degree of trickery and blackmail is used by Conservative councils and, I am sure, Liberal Democrat ones—I have to include them now—to force people into the private sector. They say, “Give up your tenancy in order to get more space. If you want your families to live in more than a one-bedroom flat, move into the private sector.” I have such cases every week in my surgery. I now have to inform those people that if they do so, not only will they be in an insecure tenancy, but in a year’s time their rent will be capped and they will be forced to move out of the area altogether. They simply do not know that.

I praise the campaign that Inside Housing magazine is running on the issue, and I praise the efforts of many London MPs, but the policy needs a rethink even at this stage. The Minister needs to go back and look at the implications, which he clearly has not yet done.

11:41

[Mr Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con)]

Average earners in this country—taxpayers—take home £374 a week. Is the hon. Member for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter) seriously arguing that they should chip in so that £2,000 a week can be spent through housing benefit for a family? He needs to wake up. The fact is that the housing market for rentals is affected by the level of housing benefit and the housing allowance. In Wolverhampton, 75% of the rental market is housing allowance. The maximum amount that can be claimed for a four-bedroom property is £693 a month and—guess what?—that is what they all go on the market at.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Heald]

I will give way in a moment, but first I wish to mention Blackpool. The effect of the local broad rental market area, which takes in surrounding areas such as Fylde, has been to put up all the rents in the centre of Blackpool. There are other examples, including one in yesterday’s Evening Standard showing that housing benefit rents are higher than ordinary rents. The National Landlords Association states that the effect of the change will be landlords looking at their profit and loss and deciding by how much they can afford to reduce their rents. The fact is that housing benefit and the rental market are intertwined and it is ridiculous to say otherwise.

[Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that those on the lowest incomes pay most in income tax, as a percentage of their income, rather than those on higher incomes? The idea that these measures are somehow unfair to taxpayers is completely misguided.

[Mr Heald]

The hon. Lady makes my point exactly. If someone with a job that does not pay much is struggling and paying taxes, how will they feel to see a family renting at £2,000 per week?

[Lyn Brown]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Heald]

Of course.

[Mr Mike Hancock (in the Chair)]

Order. I urge hon. Members to consider that at least six more people have indicated that they wish to speak. If we have such a rate of interventions, they will not all get in. Please can we be fair to each other?

[Lyn Brown]

I am grateful, Mr Hancock. Other people would like to contribute to the debate but will probably find it impossible.

I want to make it absolutely clear that the hon. Member for North East Hertfordshire (Mr Heald) is talking about one case that has been cited in the Daily Mail, The Mail on Sunday or wherever. In Newham, in London, the rent for a five-bedroom house is £350 a week, not the ludicrous amounts that the hon. Gentleman is talking about. Perhaps he will focus his remarks on the real world, rather than the world of Notting Hill.

[Mr Heald]

The hon. Lady must recognise what has happened to the housing benefit budget. It has gone up in a decade from £14 billion to £21 billion, and has been pushed there the whole time. When the Work and Pensions Committee looked at the issue before the election, some people were seriously arguing that we should remove the five-bedroom cap so that someone could get a seven-bedroom house on housing benefit—there is no end to it. Someone needs to speak up for the ordinary taxpayer.

What about large families? The hon. Member for Hampstead and Kilburn (Glenda Jackson) talked about that issue in Hampstead. If ordinary working people want to have a large family, that is their individual choice, and it probably means that if they are not subsidised to a huge extent, they will be a bit more crowded and cannot live in the part of London in which they want to live. People with large families need to be more realistic about the way of the world.

11:45

[Margaret Hodge (Barking) (Lab)]

I want to raise the issue of the impact that this policy will have on my community in the London borough of Barking and Dagenham. Our borough has lower local housing allowance rates than the proposed cap for all but the largest properties, so only five families will be adversely affected by it, although I must add that larger families tend to be the poorer families and that the impact will be felt over time. However, that figure can be compared with the 4,592 families—some 85%—who will be over the cap in Westminster, the 2,345 in Kensington and Chelsea, the 2,360 in Brent and the 1,688 in Hackney.

We do not need to be rocket scientists to work out what will happen in practice: families will move out of the inner London boroughs to places such as Barking and Dagenham, where there will then be greater pressure on housing. Let me set out what the impact of that will be. Our borough does not have enough decent housing for local people at a price that people can afford. We have more than 11,000 people on our waiting list. Everyone in the Chamber knows the impact that a lack of affordable housing can have on people’s anger, and therefore the rise of the extreme right, and we have been grappling with that problem. I ask the Minister to think about the impact of what he is doing by moving people across the capital, and what that will mean for social cohesion, which he must care about.

There is intellectual illiteracy among some Government Members. Rents have gone up in the private sector not because of housing benefit, but because of a lack of affordable housing. Both Labour and Conservative Governments have not built enough social housing. Making housing rents in the private sector less affordable for poor families—if there are no council or housing association homes available—means that people are forced into bed-and-breakfast accommodation or back on to the streets, which will cost the taxpayer very much more than private sector housing.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Margaret Hodge]

I will not give way, because loads of people wish to speak. I am not being discourteous, but do not want to be unfair to Members.

I have two other issues to raise. I am concerned about the changes to the local housing allowance. The current level of 50% of market rates is to go down to 30%, which again will disproportionately affect the largest families, who tend to be the poorest. In Barking and Dagenham, it will mean that the poorest large families will be more than £23 a week worse off. I do not believe in castrating the parents of such families to prevent them from having children. In a civilised society, our prime duty is to be fair and to look after the children of families in greatest need.

The Government also intend that, from 2013, families who have been on jobseeker’s allowance for more than 12 months will find their housing benefit cut. That will have a terrible impact on the poorest families in the community. In my borough, one in five private tenants is a JSA claimant. They tend to be people of working age, but as rents go up, the costs of being in work increase, which forces people into joblessness.

I passionately ask the Minister whether he has considered the impact of his proposed changes on social cohesion in communities across London such as mine. If so, how will he respond to the challenges that he is creating? Will he reconsider the caps to prevent such dislocation across the capital, or is the policy just another bit of political gerrymandering, as we had with the Conservative Government in the 1980s? With his background, how can he justify hitting the poorest people first? How does the cap fit with fairness? Why punish people rather than supporting them out of poverty? The Government’s proposition is ill thought out. We all want to reform housing benefit, but not in this way.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Mike Hancock (in the Chair)]

Order. I intend to call Damian Hinds next, and then Karen Buck and Caroline Lucas. The winding-up speeches will start at 12.10 pm. Both the Minister and the Opposition spokesperson have agreed to speak for 10 minutes each, which I hope that we can respect. We can still get five more speakers in if we play the game.

11:49

[Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con)]

Most of us agree with the hon. Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier) that there will be difficulties for some families following the changes. It would be faintly ridiculous to have a debate in which people on one side were saying that taking money from a benefit would have an impact, but people on the other side were saying that it would not. Of course there will be an impact, and not just in London, although London is particularly affected. Many other areas will be affected, including my constituency of East Hampshire.

Most of us wish that the changes were not necessary. We wish that we were not where we are—but we are. A budget of £21 billion is bound to be examined. The question is how we proceed, and the trick is not just to cut but to try to reform and redesign in a way that smoothes off the roughest edges, that does not introduce perverse incentives, and that attempts to keep rents down. The right hon. Member for Barking (Margaret Hodge) shouted out that saying that this measure will do that is an assertion, not a fact, but it is also a basic economic law. If we take a large part of the macro-market—it does not have to be the majority of the market or all of it—and impose a limit, that will have an impact on the overall price.

The point that I really want to make is somewhat broader, however. I realise that Opposition Members would like the structural deficit that they ran up to be last week’s or last month’s debate, and now want to move on to a debate about cuts and pretend that it is a different topic altogether. In the first debate, they say, “Oh yes, we did go a little bit far in running up debts, but the real problem was caused by the bankers and the global recession,” but that glosses over the fact that we were so economically ill prepared for what came. They deliberately confuse the cyclical deficit with the structural deficit and deliberately confuse the annual deficit with the accumulated debt, thus trying to discombobulate the public. By the way, they say that they had a plan to deal with the situation, but they only ever talk about the total, and never about the individual line items that make up that total.

In the second debate, Opposition Members move on to a discussion about cuts, and for every individual line item that the present Government have to cut, they find fault with that particular approach without offering a realistic alternative. We cannot have those two separate debates. They are not separate debates, because the deficit and how it is dealt with are two sides of the same coin.

Let us be clear that with a deficit of such a size, we cannot talk only about cutting unproductive programmes and waste. We will also have to cut things that we want but simply cannot afford. If people are to be able to do the things that they want to do, they have to do the things that they must do well and responsibly, yet by running up the deficit, that is precisely what the previous Government did not do.

Many hon. Members who supported the previous Government want to see the debate in terms of so-called ideological cuts. I have seen how eager they are to suggest that there is some zeal on the part of Government Members to make such cuts because we have a strange, ill-defined antipathy towards helping people. Of course, that is nonsense. The reality is that we are trying urgently to save money—money that we do not have and never had—in the best way possible.

This is rightly a sensitive subject. As I said at the start of my speech, there will be hardship and hard cases as a result of the changes, which is why I was encouraged to learn of the increase in the discretionary housing benefit fund. I hope that that will help to mitigate some of the effects. Overall, however, given the fiscal situation that the Government have been bequeathed, I think that the changes are right and that they strike about the right balance. They cannot be considered in isolation. We must remember that people throughout society are being asked—have to be asked—to make sacrifices. I think that the changes will be seen as fair. My question is this: what representations has the Minister received from Opposition Members on how else to make cuts of a similar overall quantum in the housing benefit budget?

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Mike Hancock (in the Chair)]

Order. There are three more Back Benchers who wish to speak. If they take five minutes each, we will be laughing.

11:54

[Ms Karen Buck (Westminster North) (Lab)]

William Beveridge deferred any strategy for dealing with housing costs on the ground that that could not be done while there were still significant regional variations. To paraphrase Lloyd Bentsen’s famous comment to Dan Quayle when Dan Quayle compared himself to Kennedy, “George Osborne, you are no William Beveridge.”

Our problem is that we have had a 30-year policy of shifting expenditure from the construction of affordable housing to the housing benefit budget. That includes, I have to say, decisions made by the Labour Government, which I did not agree with at the time. We are dealing with that now in the worst possible way.

Four categories of people are involved. There is a very small number of very extreme cases, which the Labour Government were planning to deal with through taking out the most expensive properties at the top of the market in the local housing allowance calculation, which was a reasonable one. We will not support such cases, but we have to have a sensible strategy for dealing with those extremes. I do not think that any Labour Member would disagree that pumping billions of pounds of taxpayers’ money into the pockets of private landlords is an insane way to go about a housing policy, but what is proposed is more insane.

I say that because of the other three categories. One is pensioners who never expected to be on housing benefit but who, many years into their private tenancy, as the rents have gone up, have found themselves caught. The second is people in the private rented sector who were working but who have lost their jobs or whose incomes have gone down and who now find that they have to claim housing benefit, possibly for a transitional period. The third category is people—families in many cases—in priority need, who either could not access social housing or were deliberately placed in the accommodation that we are talking about by local authorities. All three categories but certainly categories one and three are made up of very vulnerable people.

I have a few questions for the Minister and I would be grateful if he confirmed that he will write to all hon. Members with replies to these questions and those asked in the excellent opening speech by my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier). Can he confirm that placing homeless households in private rented accommodation was a deliberate policy of local authorities and Government, and remains so? Is he aware of how many households have been either directed to or maintained in private lettings over the past five years as a deliberate housing policy?

What proportion of households making applications and accepted by local authorities as homeless had as the main reason for their homelessness acceptance the end of an assured shorthold tenancy? I believe that it is the majority of cases; it is the main driver of homelessness.

If a household is in priority need and faces a reduction in housing benefit below the rent payable, will the local authority continue to have a homelessness duty to it? How many private tenants on housing benefit currently face a shortfall between local housing allowance and the rent charged, and what is the average amount? Hon. Friends have cited some figures. Shelter has come up with the figure of 50% of all housing benefit claimants and cited the figure of £100.

What assessment has the Department made of the numbers overall and broken down by different categories—pensioners, families with children and those of working age—and by local authority area for additional homelessness applications that are expected as a result of the policy? What assessment is being undertaken of the implications for local authorities of the movement of substantial numbers of families with children, pensioner households and others, referred to by my right hon. Friend the Member for Barking (Margaret Hodge)? I am thinking in particular of the capacity to provide school places and the implications for children’s services and adult services of dealing with large numbers of people with additional needs in a very short time scale.

Is it the Government’s intention to introduce new legislation to change the homelessness duty? What discussions are being held with local authorities about changes to the homelessness duty and the local connection criterion? Is the Minister confident that local authorities that will be the recipients of large numbers of people moved as a consequence of housing benefit changes are content to receive additional large numbers of low-income and, often, vulnerable households? What discussions have been held between the Department for Work and Pensions and the Department for Communities and Local Government about the introduction of new homelessness legislation to accommodate that difference? Will the forthcoming impact assessment indicate the Government’s confidence as to the availability of additional private rented sector housing at the reduced local housing allowance levels in all areas? What assessment has been made of the market capacity and ability to reduce rent levels?

I have a number of other questions, but I shall write to the Minister because other hon. Members want to speak. I am absolutely confident that the Department does not realise the full gravity of what is proposed.

[Mr Mike Hancock (in the Chair)]

I call Caroline Lucas. Please remember the time.

11:59

[Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier) on securing the debate.

The Government’s housing benefit proposals demonstrate beyond doubt that they are intent on pursuing plans that overwhelmingly penalise the poor—forget any nice words about our being in this together. As many housing charities predict, the proposals will make thousands of people homeless, as cuts to housing benefit combine with increased repossessions and higher unemployment. It is an absolute scandal that that should happen in one of the richest countries in the world in the 21st century—what a damning judgment on what was supposed to be a new politics.

I am deeply concerned about the impact in my constituency. We have heard a lot about London, and understandably so, but I reiterate that many areas, particularly beyond London’s periphery, are also suffering a huge amount. In Brighton, Pavilion, for example, someone would have to earn more than £50,000 a year to buy an average-priced house. No wonder that nearly 10,000 households are on the waiting list for affordable housing in the Brighton and Hove area. At current rates, that list will take more than eight years to clear.

The increase in housing benefit bills over recent years is not, as the Government would have us believe, the result of some epidemic of scroungers, but, as others have said, of the considerable growth in the number of people who are being forced into the private rented sector, where rents are almost double those in social housing. Again in my own constituency, the private rented sector makes up about 21% of the housing sector, which is much higher than average. My surgeries are full of people who are already struggling to pay rent and to find alternatives to cramped, overcrowded and overpriced accommodation, and the Government’s plans can only make that worse.

If we are to reduce the housing benefit bill in the long term, we should be building more affordable housing, which should, of course, be green, decent and fuel-efficient housing. We need a reduction in VAT on repairs to encourage people to put older properties to better use and we need to support people in bringing empty properties into use. We also need to support housing co-ops and other forms of affordable housing.

In the meantime, however, the Government’s proposals will simply make the situation worse. Particularly pernicious are the proposals to reduce the percentile of local market rents used to calculate LHA from the median to the 30th percentile and to cap the maximum LHA payable for each property size. Those reforms will lead to a significant reduction in the amount of LHA received by every claimant, exacerbating widespread problems with rent shortfalls and increasing barriers to accessing accommodation. As a result, swathes of London and the south-east will simply become unaffordable for people on LHA, which is likely to push them into debt, eviction and homelessness. Behind the statistics, it is important to remember the individual families many of us see in our surgeries, whose hopes and aspirations are being wrecked every day. The Government’s proposals will simply make things worse.

We are short of time, so I will make one final point. The hon. Member for East Hampshire (Damian Hinds) talked about increasing discretionary housing payments, or the DHP budget, as an additional safety net to support the thousands of claimants who will face shortfalls once the cuts to LHA are introduced. Let us remember, however, that the Chartered Institute of Housing has undertaken analysis showing that if the additional £40 million is spent solely on making up the shortfall in rents due to the proposed drop, it will support just 4% of the claimants facing the drop from the 50th to the 30th percentile for a year.

If that were not enough, from April 2013, receipt of full housing benefit for claimants who can be expected to look for work will be time limited to 12 months and then reduced by 10%. Attaching sanctions to housing benefit is an extremely unfair way of trying to help into work claimants who could work. Indeed, after the Budget, I have to ask where the jobs are that we expect these people to find. In the context of rising unemployment, it is hugely unjust to penalise people who cannot find work, and the Government’s proposals will simply lead to an even greater increase in poverty.

Let me finish with some questions. What kind of transitional protection measures will be in place for the people affected by the Government’s proposals? Have the Government considered the knock-on costs for local authorities and the knock-on effects on the private rented sector? Finally, to reiterate an earlier point, what is the point of an impact assessment that is produced after the proposals?

[Mr Mike Hancock (in the Chair)]

Thank you very much. Before I call the last Back-Bench speaker, I apologise to everyone who wanted to speak but whom I could not get in. The last speaker is Emily Thornberry. It would be helpful, Emily, if you could remember that we have given an undertaking to start the winding-up speeches at 12.10 pm.

12:04

[Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) (Lab)]

Well, six minutes.

[Mr Mike Hancock (in the Chair)]

More than you could have hoped for, I think.

[Emily Thornberry]

Much more than I could possibly have hoped for, although I have to say that most of my speech will appear on my website.

[Mr Gary Streeter in the Chair]

In some areas of the country—my constituency is an obvious example—there is a serious mismatch between earnings and housing costs. The average worker in my constituency earns £20,000 a year and pays tax on that. The average rent for a two-bedroom flat in inner north London, which is not the most expensive part of my constituency, is more than £17,000 a year. That leaves an average working parent with less than £60 a week for food, clothes, travel and council tax. It is clear, therefore, that there has to be some form of intervention in areas where the rent is so high. Either we build more affordable housing—I am sure that everyone here knows and agrees that that is exactly what we should do with the money—or we intervene to subsidise rents and put people in the private market.

[Mr Mark Field]

This lack of building has been a problem not only over the past 13 years. Does the hon. Lady not recognise, however, that there has to be some sharing of the blame? During the past 13 years of the Labour Government, there was no substantial building, and that is the nub of the problem, particularly in central London.

[Emily Thornberry]

Many of us in the Chamber have been major campaigners on that issue, and I know that the hon. Gentleman is, too. I was completely outraged that the Lib Dem council in my area, which was in power for 10 years, built only one flat for social rented housing for every seven new flats that were built, which is completely inappropriate in a constituency such as mine, given the needs that it has.

Of the 850 Islington families in flats with two or more bedrooms who are claiming LHA, or housing benefit in the case of private landlords, more than half—more than 500 families—will lose benefits under the new capping rules, and some will lose more than £100 a week. Where will they go? Is there room for them in Thornbury and Yate? Will they move into cars? Where do the Government expect them to go when they lose all that money? They certainly will not be able to keep their flats.

To make an obvious point, expecting housing benefit claimants to live in the cheapest 30% of private rented flats will cause real hardship in areas such as London, where housing is already in short supply. The differential between the median and the 30th percentile might be small in some areas. For example, in central Lancashire—perhaps in Thornbury and Yate—there is less than £6 difference between a two-bedroom flat on the median and one on the 30th percentile, and people can get a family home for less than £120 a week. However, in my constituency, in Islington, the difference between the median and the 30th percentile for a two-bedroom flat is £40 a week—the difference between £330 and £290 a week. Where will people get that money? What will happen? It is fundamentally unfair to expect claimants in my constituency to make up a housing benefit gap of £40 a week when claimants elsewhere will be expected to find only £6 a week.

[Frank Dobson (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that officialdom clearly accepts that the cap is not fair? It suggests a cap of £340 for a three-bedroom flat, whereas the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority allows Members from outside London £340 for a one-bedroom flat. We are being told that the going rate for a three-bedroom flat is the same as that for a single-bedroom flat.

[Emily Thornberry]

On a much less serious level, the representations that London MPs are making about the money that we need to run offices rely on exactly the same argument that we are putting today on behalf of the poorest and most vulnerable of our constituents. Although we all need help, they need it a great deal more.

It is unfair to expect all private tenants to compete for the cheapest properties, because private landlords will simply take the easiest families, rather than the difficult kids or the people on unemployment benefit. Where will the other families go? Will they live in cars?

I am appalled by the suggestion that the long-term unemployed should have their housing benefit cut by 10%. I am sorry to sound like a stuck record, but the effect of a 10% cut on families in London will be much more than that on families in Bradford. A 10% cut in benefit may mean £25 a week for someone in a one-bedroom flat in London, but it will be £8.60 in Bradford. It is not fair, and it is not right. The rules will affect a large number of people in the most deprived areas of London. At the moment, 1,200 Islington residents get jobseeker’s allowance or incapacity benefit for more than a year. What will they do to make up for the loss of that benefit? The idea is that they are on jobseeker’s allowance because they want to be—that they are malingerers and do not want to work. I invite the Minister —and, indeed, his boss—to come to some of my surgeries to see the reality of how people live in London.

We should build more affordable housing, provide sensible pathways to work and support families through child tax credits and child benefit. Yes, it is social engineering, but it is positive and sustainable.

12:10

[Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab)]

May I say what a pleasure it is, Mr Streeter, to serve under your chairmanship? I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier) on securing this extremely important debate.

Of course, everyone agrees on the need to tackle high rents and high payments. It is clearly not right to pay people more than £1,000 a week for housing benefit. That is why, in his March Budget, my right hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling) took measures to strip out the top rents; that will save the taxpayer £50 million. Before considering the current Budget measures, I have one question for the Minister: will he abolish the £15 excess as well as introducing the raft of measures included in the Red Book?

It seems to me that the coalition Government have used the small number of exceptionally high benefit payments as a ruse to cut housing benefit across the land. The truth is that only 100 households in the entire country receive housing benefit of more than £1,000 a week. In the social sector the average payment is £72 a week, and in the private rented sector it is £106.

Over the last month, the Minister has refused to answer virtually all parliamentary questions about the number of people who will lose and by how much. I see that he looks puzzled, but even yesterday he refused to answer 36 parliamentary questions. I am not sure whether he does not know how many people will be affected and what the losses will be, or he is embarrassed. I am not sure, either, which is worse.

Did Department for Work and Pensions Ministers take decisions without proper analysis? Were they ambushed by the Treasury, as we suspect? Is that why Ministers are delaying giving us the information until 23 July—in 10 days’ time? How very convenient for them. The Chief Secretary to the Treasury has refused to release data that would have allowed people to analyse the impact of the housing benefit changes. That is despite the coalition agreement saying that data will be released so that we have proper transparency.

The Minister is Pensions Minister. Is he going to tell us today how the housing benefit cuts will affect the 1.5 million old-age pensioners who now receive housing benefit? Will he confirm that, in addition to the London problems that were so eloquently described by my colleagues, more than 1 million people will lose at least £500 a year? With the help of Citizens Advice, we have discovered what the cuts will be in other parts of the country. In some places, they will be huge. A single person on the lowest shared room rate in Durham will lose £700. A single person in a one-bedroom flat in St Helens will lose £800. People in four-bedroom accommodation in Nottingham will lose £1,100. Those figures are disgraceful.

It is quite wrong for the Government to have produced distribution figures in the Red Book that completely ignore the impact on housing benefit. The rents that people are expected to survive upon in the provinces are completely ridiculous. In central Lancashire, the single-room rate is down to £44 a week. In Hull, the one-bedroom rate is down to £67 a week. In Chesterfield, a family needing four bedrooms is expected to find accommodation for £138 a week. As hon. Members have said, the abolition of the housing benefit rate for five-bedroom properties will be particularly bad for large families. What will the impact be on the various ethnic and religious groups? It will clearly be discriminatory. We know that child poverty is bad for ethnic minorities and large families. It just got a whole lot worse.

I turn to the benefit cap. My hon. Friend the Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch has not been describing the problems of people who want to live in Mayfair, but the problems of people in an ordinary part of London. The Minister must explain how it will impact on work incentives. How does he expect people to travel to jobs such as cleaning our offices or working in hotels in central London? Is he trying to reproduce the apartheid conditions seen in cities elsewhere? Certainly he is not supporting mixed communities. The way to address work incentives is not to cut benefits, but to introduce run-ons and fixed-period payments—things that we were asked to do by Crisis and Shelter and others in the voluntary sector that work with the homeless. Things will get even worse in 2012-13, when the local housing allowance switches to a consumer prices index link. The benefit will then be completely disconnected from rent levels. Had that been done in 1999, by now people would be suffering a further 20% shortfall.

Will the Minister tell us what the effect will be on families? How many will have to move? What will the effect be on homelessness? What will the effect be on the number of families in bed-and-breakfast accommodation? What will the effect be on the availability of private rented accommodation? What have the responses been of private landlords to the Government? As many hon. Members have asked, what transitional arrangements will the Government introduce?

The Government have also announced a number of measures that will particularly affect the social sector. Deductions for non-dependence, as projected by the Chartered Institute of Housing, will impact on 170,000 people, who will all lose more than £900 a year. Typically, they are people whose children are aged between 16 and 24. Another measure that will affect the social sector is the proposal to limit working-age entitlements to reflect the size of family. According to the Chartered Institute of Housing, that could affect 180,000 people, to the tune of £2,300 a year. Will the Minister tell us whether he proposes that these deductions will be made when people’s partnerships break up? Will we see women with children being forced to move because the partner has left the home? None of the social implications of the measures have been considered.

Perhaps the most vicious measure is the cutting of benefits by 10% after a claimant has been unemployed for 12 months. What possible rationale can there be for punishing the victims of the recession? Does the Minister not realise that, in London, eight people are chasing every vacancy? That cut is happening at the same time as a cut in support for those who are unemployed. It is pointlessly punitive. The CIH estimates that, overall, the measure will affect between 231,000 and 375,000 people by between £400 and £580 a year.

Has the Minister thought through the impact on lone parents? Forcing mothers of five-year-olds onto JSA will, by the Government’s own estimate—it was published in the Budget policy assumptions document—result in only 10% of lone parents getting jobs within a year. That will leave 135,000 lone parents facing housing benefit cuts in 2013-14. That is utterly appalling.

The final little sop—to increase the discretionary housing payments by £40 million—is totally inadequate. It will not deal with the hardships caused by taking £1.8 billion out of the housing benefit budget. I hope the Minister will give us some answers, and that he will undertake to rethink these draconian measures.

12:20

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Steve Webb)]

This is the first time that I have had the pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Streeter. I congratulate the hon. Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier) on raising this important issue and on giving a number of hon. Members, particularly but not exclusively from the London area, the chance to air their views, which they have done effectively.

I have been advised not to run through a whole history of housing benefit because we do not have enough time. However, I will set out some of the thinking behind the reforms. The housing benefit bill has been rising inexorably: in the past five years, we have seen a 50% real rise in the bill when the numbers have gone up by less than 20%. With £1 billion added each year, it does not take long before we are talking about serious money. The question is this: do we stand by and watch that or do we allow our constituents, who are on low wages and paying tax out of their low wages, to have a voice in this debate? A number of hon. Members said that the taxpayers’ perspective relates not just to the well-off but to low earners as well. As the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) said, if we consider the whole tax burden, the tax impact on low earners is quite substantial.

What we cannot do is to continue to pay out blank cheques to private landlords—this is a blank cheque not to tenants but to private landlords. Rents have been going up and the state has been a passive observer. The housing market has demanded cash from us and we have simply handed it over. Then it has demanded more and we have handed it over again.

[Margaret Hodge]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Steve Webb]

Not at the moment. I will take some interventions, but first I want to set the scene.

If we do not have a blank cheque, what do we do? What is a legitimate way to say that someone who takes a low-paid job typically chooses a rent around the 30th percentile? That number has not been plucked from the sky. If someone takes a low-paid job, they do not have an unlimited choice about where they live. They cannot live in as big a house as they would like. They are constrained in where they live. Why should our constituents who take a low-paid job with all the associated uncertainties and who have to restrict their housing choice be in a worse position than those—I do not use the words “scroungers” or “apartheid”, which have come from the Opposition Benches—who are, for example, unemployed? There is an issue about social justice.

[Meg Hillier]

The Minister is confusing things. In my constituency, people do not have a choice. To afford anything, they need the housing benefit top-up. That is because rent levels and the demand for property are high. If landlords do not rent to people on benefit, there will be plenty of people in the private sector who do not need benefit who will take those homes.

[Steve Webb]

Clearly, there is a differential impact in different parts of London; I do not dispute that for a second. Taking London as a whole, just a little under a third of properties will be available within the caps. Obviously, the figure will vary from area to area, and there are particular issues that affect central inner London.

[Mr Mark Field]

Will the Minister briefly give way?

[Steve Webb]

I will carry on just for now, because I want to respond to as much of the debate as I can.

The question is, how can we appropriately look at this matter? Some of the figures that have been quoted for losers assume that nothing changes and that people will go on living exactly where they are living and making the same choices, but the whole point of the reform is to have an influence on the housing market, and to try to do something about escalating rents.

[Frank Dobson]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Steve Webb]

I will not. I want to respond to the debate in the short time that is available to me. If we allow rents to go on rising as they are doing, how can we expect people to find the work that will enable them to pay those exorbitant rents? There are not the jobs that will enable people to afford to pay those rents. If we can do something about the rents that landlords charge, more people will find it worth working. At the moment, people get no return for work.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Steve Webb]

No, I will not give way. I said that I wanted to respond to the debate. [Interruption.] I am trying to respond. If I give way, I will not have time to do that.

The issue of the discretionary housing benefit was raised. We are tripling the budget; it is £20 million now and it will be £60 million in a couple of years’ time. If we spread that thinly across the country, it will not go far, which is why, when we are allocating discretionary housing benefit we will have particular regard for the places in the country and the local housing markets where the changes will have the most impact. I am sure that the constituents of many hon. Members here today will see a bigger share of the money because of the points that have been raised. That is part of the answer to the question that was raised about transitional measures. Local authorities will consider on a case-by-case basis individuals who have been severely affected by our measures and for whom moving would be most disruptive, and, in those extreme cases, provide assistance.

The hon. Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch asked about timing. It is important that I place it on the record that I need to make some corrections. Nothing happens this autumn; nothing will change until next April. We have to put regulations through the Social Security Advisory Committee, so there will be a process of consultation on the regulations. The regulations will be laid before Parliament in October or November. There will then be a further six months before anything changes. As she rightly said, those are the changes that will go through secondary legislation. Some of the longer-term changes will require primary legislation, so there will be a further process of scrutiny and consultation.

I want to address some of the specific issues raised. The hon. Lady raised the issue of the rent levels relevant to the cap in her constituency. I understand that the broad rental market for inner east London is significant. I have looked at the figures for one-bed, two-bed, three-bed and four-bed properties at the 30th percentile in her constituency, and they are all at or below the cap. I am happy to supply her with the figures.

We have had many contributions to the debate. The extraordinary word “apartheid” was used and we heard about vast numbers of people criss-crossing London. There has been an awful lot of overstatement about the actual impact of the changes, particularly given that three out of 10 private rented properties will still be available after the change within the cap.

The issue of pensioners was raised. There was some suggestion that elderly people would be particularly adversely affected. I hope that the Chamber will recall that the local housing allowance that we have been talking about today, which is used in the private rented sector, applies only to 80,000 pensioners the length and breadth of Britain. [Interruption.] There was some implication that millions of pensioners would be affected by our measures. We are talking about only a tiny number of pensioners across Britain, and many of them live in regulated tenancies, which will be protected in any case.

[Margaret Hodge]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Steve Webb]

No, I will not. Hon. Members have asked about the impact assessment, statistics and parliamentary questions. The impact assessment will be published on 23 July. There was some suggestion that that had something to do with the timing of this debate. We do not control the timing of these debates.

[Helen Goodman]

But the Government control the timing of publication.

[Steve Webb]

We are publishing on 23 July to give us time to prepare the detailed statistics that the House wants to see. We know the aggregate impact, but the House wants some fine detail. I can tell the Chamber that the impact assessment will include the impact on groups at a national level, broad rental market areas, bedroom category, the availability of accommodation by broad rental market area, the households affected by caps by local authority and by Government office region, the households affected by moving to the 30th percentile and the distribution of local housing allowance and housing benefit award by case load and by housing benefit award intervals. Rather than drip-feed incomplete information, we want to give the Chamber comprehensive detailed information before the House rises for the summer recess.

One thing that is usually said in such debates is that people on housing benefit will not be able to find anywhere to rent. We have all come across anecdotal examples of that. Occasionally, landlords will not rent to people on housing benefit. [Interruption.] I hate to bring the facts to bear in this debate, but since November 2008 the number of private sector tenants on housing benefit has not fallen. It has risen by 400,000. If private landlords are not willing to rent to people on housing benefit, how come there are 400,000 more of them doing it?

[Ms Buck]

I refer back to my first question, which the Minister has not had time to answer. The majority of increase, according to the Department for Communities and Local Government, is in households that are placed in private rented accommodation by local authorities. That is why they have been able to access it, and they will no longer be able to access it in whole swathes of the country including London.

[Steve Webb]

As the hon. Lady knows—she is exceptionally knowledgeable about such matters—what is important is how the market responds to these changed incentives. If everything carries on as it is now, the reforms will have failed. We want an impact on the rental market so that we can end the situation in which people have huge rents paid for by the taxpayer that they cannot afford from the jobs they get.

[Mr Gary Streeter (in the Chair)]

Order. Our time for this debate has gone. We now move on to the less controversial subject of the construction of nuclear power stations. [Laughter.] Will Members leaving Westminster Hall please do so quietly?

New Nuclear Power Stations

Tuesday 13th July 2010 Westminster Hall

12:30

[Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater and West Somerset) (Con)]

I am very grateful to have this chance to talk about an issue that of course affects my constituency enormously, as you know Mr Streeter.

The future of nuclear power is vital to my constituency and to the whole of the United Kingdom. That is why I am very grateful to have the chance to debate the issue today and I am delighted that my hon. Friend the Minister is here to respond to the debate.

It is no secret that we are running out of capacity to generate electricity. Existing nuclear stations are growing old and they must be replaced within the next seven years or—to be blunt—the lights will start going out. We cannot afford any more delays and I am afraid that, as a nation, we must take decisive action now.

The previous time I raised these matters in Westminster Hall, which was nine months ago, there was a different Government and many attitudes were different from those that exist now. Today I hope that I am preaching to the converted about the necessities and advantages of nuclear power.

In Bridgwater, nuclear power has provided reliable electricity to the grid since 1970 through the four reactors of the A and B stations, two of which, at the A station, have now been decommissioned. The B station has been given a five-year extension and is now owned by EDF Energy. We know that nuclear power works very well and is safe. We have a whole generation of local experts closely involved in the building, management and decommissioning of stations. Last October, we got the go-ahead to create the first nuclear academy in the United Kingdom at Bridgwater college. So there are many positive factors about nuclear power.

Of course, Hinkley Point is far from invisible—nuclear power stations cannot really be hidden. The existing station sits like a concrete castle overlooking the Bristol channel and dominates the skyline in one of the loveliest parts of this country. The plan is to construct a pair of new pressurised water reactors. Such reactors are tried, trusted and used safely all over the world. Two new reactors could pump out enough power to satisfy 4 million customers in the United Kingdom.

I make absolutely no bones about it—this is a massive operation. It will be the biggest ever civil engineering operation in the south-west. It will create 900 permanent jobs and roughly 5,000 people will be needed just to build the new plant. EDF Energy commissioned research into how the work would help the local economy. It estimates that £100 million will be spent every year during the building work and roughly £40 million a year will be spent thereafter, but I ask the Minister—is that enough?

Naturally, we welcome the concept of the new development. Of course we want to have the automatic boost to the local economy that building anything that big would bring, and yes, we need the contractors earning good salaries and spending their money in local shops. Bridgwater is an industrial town and we are very keen on business.

However, as a community, we have every right to ask for something more substantial in return. A nuclear power station is not like a supermarket. It is a gigantic piece of industrial machinery and the new development in my constituency would be slap-bang in the middle of some of England’s loveliest countryside. A fair slice of compensation ought to be in order. Some of it could come in the form of old-fashioned folding money, which would be nice. Some of it could be invested in the local community with sensible, joined-up thinking, which would be nicer still.

Just a few moments ago, I mentioned the nuclear academy at Bridgwater college. Bridgwater college is a remarkable college run by dedicated people who deserve to be at the heart of the work, training the new generation of nuclear experts. You don’t get owt for nowt. Bridgwater college put in the backwork, time and commitment to secure its place in the south-west hub for all nuclear skills training, as part of the nuclear skills academy. It is great to have the college, I am very proud of all its achievements and it has proved its worth, time and again, under the leadership of Fiona McMillan.

As the Minister will be all too aware, spending on education is in the spotlight, not just locally but nationally. Last week, the announcement about the Building Schools for the Future programme dealt a heavy blow in my area; I will come on to the reasoning behind that announcement shortly. We understand the pressures, we know that we must be prudent and we know that the BSF programme was not always very well organised, but Bridgwater college did an excellent job, in the same way that industry in Bridgwater does an excellent job. It produced sensible plans and everybody agreed to them.

Take it from me—cutting back on schools in Bridgwater now or in the future is not the answer to anything. That is especially true because of what we are going to do locally. Cutting back is not the answer if we want to encourage a new generation of professionals, which we must have. It is not the answer if we want to have home-grown nuclear experts, and it is not the answer if, as a Government, we want to have joined-up policy.

Our local schools were ready to sign the relevant documents on the very day that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education made his announcement about the BSF programme. Millions of pounds had been invested and a lot of it had come from the nuclear industry. Some of the building work had already begun and it made perfect sense to carry on.

How many other areas are about to build a huge new nuclear power station? How many other areas were as ready as we were with their plans for schools? Other areas were not ready.

[Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this debate. I would say that my area is ready. As with the nuclear power station in his constituency, Wylfa nuclear power station in my constituency has been decommissioned and a new build is happening on-site.

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the skills that he is talking about are long-term skills to provide a job for life, that they are transferrable throughout the whole energy sector and that they are vital for the “green deal” that this Government are talking about?

[Mr Liddell-Grainger]

I totally agree with the hon. Gentleman and his point is well made. I think that the proposals for Wylfa are in phase 2 of the proposals for nuclear power. He makes a good point.

As I was saying, the decision about the BSF programme does not add up. These schools in my area were due to be refurbished and built under the private finance initiative system. It was absolutely right that there should have been public investment in a local economy as good as ours.

Later today, I have an appointment to see the Secretary of State for Education and I intend to leave him in no uncertainty about what his announcement means for the programmes in my area that we are now looking at. However, I first want to offer my hon. Friend the Minister a few ideas that might help his thinking and that of his colleagues.

To build a new nuclear power station requires a reliable operating company, a shedload of money, a sensitive planning system and, perhaps above all, the ability to think outside the box. Deciding to put up a power station today means that we are planning for the next 60 to 150 years. It is ridiculous and completely unfair to see such things in terms of the conventional five-year life span of any Parliament. If we do not get this decision right now, we will be blamed by our children, by our grandchildren and, in the case of nuclear, by our great-grandchildren.

Therefore, I am afraid to say that cheeseparing on education with one hand while trying to nurture a skills academy with the other hand does not make sense to me or to anybody else. Everyone agrees that there is still a national deficit—we know that there is—and that there is a real need to be careful with the precious financial resources that we have. Equally, however, everybody knows that there are several ways to skin a cat.

Why will the Government not examine the possibility of using a proportion of the very substantial business rates that EDF Energy will have to pay to meet some of the extra needs of the community? It is not such an outlandish idea and it was mooted publicly just a few days ago by the Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government, my right hon. Friend the Member for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark), who is the Minister with responsibility for decentralisation. He suggested that some major developments should be allowed to take the lion’s share of local business rates for the first six years of their existence. In terms of EDF Energy, that would mean a very healthy sum indeed to pay back to the community; it could amount to £40 million a year.

One might say that such a proposal is a form of legalised bribery and it sounds like an un-British way of going about things. However, there are quite a few solid examples of community funds that were deliberately established to compensate local people in the wake of major developments.

I am sure that my hon. Friend the Minister knows about the Shetland Charitable Trust, which was set up in 1974 when the huge oil terminal at Sullom Voe was built. Shetland council wanted to claw back money from the oil companies to help to compensate fishermen and because it felt that Sullom Voe was an ugly and unnecessary development. However, little councils do not have any power. Parliament pushed through the Zetland County Council Act 1974 to give Shetland council some muscle. The council now has £200 million in the bank and it shells out up to £13 million every year on special community projects. Sullom Voe is nothing like as heavily populated as Bridgwater and West Somerset. We would like a lot more money because, as the advert says, “We’re worth it”.

Another example is Cumbria, home to Sellafield, a nuclear establishment with even more history than Hinkley. The area is covered by Copeland district council, which negotiated a special deal with the Government in 2007 to get compensation for the inconvenience of looking after the nation’s low-level nuclear waste. As the Minister knows, the deal involved the Nuclear Decommissioning Authority paying £10 million up front plus £1.5 million for every year of waste storage. In addition, the parish of Drigg and Carleton gets an extra £50,000 compensation a year for the next 60 years. That is seriously big money, given that only 600 people live there.

I know of many possible ways to spend such sums in and around Hinkley, in both our district council areas. One facility that we lack, for example, is a decent road that bypasses heavily populated areas and goes straight to the power plant. That is not a luxury; it is an absolute necessity given the huge number of lorries required during the plant’s building phase, which will go on for seven years. It is possible to construct a direct link. I congratulate one of my constituents, an engineer named Alan Beasley, who has worked extremely hard to identify a feasible route that would upset the fewest number of people in the area.

We do not yet know what such a scheme might cost, but there are other local sources of money. The Minister might consider having a chat with some of our honourable colleagues about schemes that he could scrap. For instance, the £20 million earmarked for our schools will be used for something else, but £20 million is available next door. The Environment Agency is about to flood the Steart peninsula, which is about 600 yards from the plant at Hinkley. Flooding the peninsula will cost £20 million and is being done to tick boxes in Europe. The official reason is that the flood defences are too old and expensive to keep. Why can we not use that money to help with the nuclear project? The actual reason for the flooding of the peninsula is that regulations and directives on the conservation of wild birds and natural habitats are more important than human beings. I do not think that that is fair. We are all in favour of our feathered friends living happily ever after in the wetlands, but we cannot afford to fork out £20 million for the privilege. If the choice is a genuinely environmental one, a relief road will offer more real environmental benefits than obeying European directives to the last letter.

Like any nuclear power station, Hinkley is a national issue, not just a local one. Our creaking planning system is feeling the strain. The previous Government introduced a wildly extravagant quango called the Infrastructure Planning Commission, where EDF’s plans might have gone for judgment. The new Government have scrapped the IPC and intend to let the Planning Inspectorate take on the task of helping to decide Hinkley’s future. That may look like swapping one quango for another, but if I understand correctly, there will be one fewer quango. However, the complications involved in altering the planning process might lead to more delay, which would not be healthy.

More or less everyone agrees that the bad old days are gone when major projects such as motorways and airports were considered by public inquiries. Good riddance to them. Public inquiries rambled on too long and often failed to reach any definite conclusions. The precise details could not be dealt with because so many activists wanted to argue the moral theories first. That is why years were wasted on the rights and wrongs of aviation rather than on exact plans to expand Heathrow.

Having got rid of the IPC, the Government’s current idea is to let Ministers, advised by the Planning Inspectorate, make the final decision, and perhaps to hold a narrow public inquiry if it is really necessary. However, as far as I can see, the essential ingredient is a national policy statement on nuclear energy, to be ratified by Parliament. Without that, nothing can proceed. I am sorry to say that in July 2010, nine months after I first asked a question about it, we are still here pleading for a national policy statement. Can we please have it soon?

Since I have devoted so much of my speech to money, I ask the Minister to consider another glaring omission from the planning process. France builds nuclear power stations wherever it chooses because landowners and local communities queue up to claim the generous compensation packages on offer. Perhaps it is no accident that EDF Energy, the firm that wants to build Hinkley C and D, is a French company. In my neck of the woods, furious rows are going on about plans to build wind farms. That is not surprising, as the operators are offering pain but no gain to those who happen to live under one. However, in Spain, Denmark and Germany, significant local benefits are built into the fabric of all wind power projects. The companies involved often pay substantial local taxes. All that we have is a woolly voluntary system.

I believe that this Government genuinely want to reform planning for the better, but decent compensation is part and parcel of good planning. I ask the Minister to remember that Hinkley is vital for the nation, and to make it worth while to Somerset to build it.

12:45

[The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Charles Hendry)]

It is a great pleasure and privilege to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Streeter. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgwater and West Somerset (Mr Liddell-Grainger) for securing the debate and leading it with his normal approach of combining passion, vigour, commitment and enthusiasm with addressing the issues directly. He is absolutely right that this is a long-term decision, and we must see it in that context. Our decisions on nuclear will be some of the most important taken on energy policy by this Government. We therefore attach great importance to how those decisions are made and realise that they must pass the test of time.

My hon. Friend is also right to remind us that we are discussing national issues. A development such as Hinkley is of national significance, and it will play an important role in our future electricity generation, if it goes ahead. I totally accept the background to his argument. He raised several issues during his speech that do not relate directly to the work of my Department. I am pleased that he is meeting the Secretary of State this afternoon to discuss Building Schools for the Future and I will be interested to know the outcome. However, I am keen to set out clearly the approach of my Department and the Government to the building of new nuclear.

We set out a clear plan for nuclear in the coalition agreement. We are committed to allowing the construction of new nuclear plants, subject to the normal planning process for major projects and the fact that they should be without public subsidy. We will continue to take forward the national policy statement and the process through Parliament.

New nuclear has a clear role in the energy mix, but we are certainly alive to many people’s concerns about the costs of such activities, so we are absolutely clear that there should be no public subsidy. In that respect, our position is broadly the same as the previous Government’s. It is for private sector energy companies to construct, operate and decommission plants, but it is for the Government to ensure that there is appropriate safety, security and environmental regulation.

We will ensure that the taxpayer is protected now and in the future from such costs. Operators will be required by law from the outset to set aside money to pay for long-term waste management costs. Having considered various possible subsidy issues, we will ensure that the taxpayer is protected. I am encouraged that despite those restrictions, which are some of the toughest in the world, Britain is nevertheless the most exciting place in Europe—perhaps in the world—for the construction of new nuclear plants. Many companies are keen to invest on that basis.

We are also committed to removing barriers to investment. The work of the Office for Nuclear Development has been fundamental to that, as has the nuclear development forum, which considers how to address the practical issues that can present challenges. On that basis, we will drive forward work on planning, regulatory justification, the generic design assessment and waste and decommissioning financing arrangements. The Government are required to undertake regulatory justification. We will take a decision after we have finished considering responses to the recent public consultation on how best to proceed.

On waste and decommissioning financing, we must redouble our efforts to deliver a framework for dealing with the costs that protects the taxpayer and provides both taxpayers and operators with clarity. The consultations on the fixed unit price and waste handling regulations have closed. We are now considering our responses carefully and will respond in due course.

I know that, to the companies proposing plans for reactor designs, the process for the generic design assessment is fundamental. I am encouraged by the nuclear installations inspectorate’s recent comments that it is on course to conclude by June 2011. The Environment Agency is consulting on its preliminary findings.

We have also indicated that there needs to be reform of the nuclear regulator, which must be structured and equipped to meet current and future challenges. In its role as a nuclear regulator, the Health and Safety Executive has responded to those challenges, but I am persuaded that reform is needed to meet the specific challenges of the sector. I want an effective, efficient and independent nuclear regulator to ensure that we have transparency and accountability. Those are some of the big national issues that we have to take into account as we consider how the programme moves forward.

I want to pick up on my hon. Friend’s concerns about the planning system. We have said that we are determined to reform the planning system. The changes made by the previous Government addressed some of the issues about the speed of the process, which they were right to identify, as applications and considerations could sometimes go on for years. They put in place a process to deal with that, but it did not have democratic accountability.

We have decided that national policy statements should continue to be an integral part of the process, but that they will be subject to a substantive vote in Parliament. That will give national policy statements greater democratic legitimacy and reduce the risk of judicial review. Following the consultation on the national policy statements, we were required to take account of the public meetings and the thousands of submissions that were received, which we are currently considering. I assure my hon. Friend that we will set out our further consideration on the NPSs as soon as we can, because we understand how significant the matter is to all those involved in the sector.

My hon. Friend also correctly identified the changes that we intend to make to the Infrastructure Planning Commission. Again, we thought that that organisation lacked democratic legitimacy. The changes will mean that the back-office function and the analytical work carried out on individual applications will be done by a dedicated unit—the major infrastructure planning unit—which will come under the Planning Inspectorate. Instead of the unit’s recommendations going to a competent but, nevertheless, unelected quango, they will go to the Secretary of State.

For those who are concerned about the time scales, I can give a clear assurance that there will be an obligation on the Secretary of State to make a decision within the same time scale under which the IPC would have proceeded, so there will be no delays. Critically, an application under the transitional arrangements will continue under the same jurisdiction in which it started. There is no risk that an application made under the current system will have to be started again from scratch when the changes come into place. We want to make sure that people who are investing know there will be certainty about the time scale in which the process will move forward.

My hon. Friend also talked about business rates. It is proper to debate the wider issue of whether allowing some business rates and new business activities generally to be kept locally is a good way of encouraging local authorities to stimulate business activities in their areas. On energy issues—this picks up on the final part of his speech—we have said that we are keen to build a new relationship between energy installations and the communities that host them. If a community is hosting something such as a wind farm on behalf of the wider interest and not purely for the benefit of that community, it is reasonable to find ways of recognising that.

We want to find new ways of achieving shared ownership so that direct funding returns come into a local community. We also want to consider how the business rates that become payable as a result of that development can be maintained locally for the first few years. We are in discussions with our colleagues in the Department for Communities and Local Government to see how broadly based that approach can be, because if that same approach were to be applied to a nuclear power facility, as my hon. Friend said, many tens of millions of pounds would come into the local community, which would make a significant contribution towards the infrastructure and educational changes that might be necessary. I am holding continuing discussions with my colleagues in the DCLG on that basis, and we understand the need for early clarity.

On the specific application at Hinkley Point, EDF is carrying out consultations in preparation for submitting a planning application. Realistically, we think that nothing will come forward until this winter or next year, by which time we would expect the national policy statements to have gone through the parliamentary approval process. Given the legal constraints on those issues, I hope that my hon. Friend will understand that there is a limit to what I can say at this stage. We have found the consultation process extremely helpful in understanding the wider picture and the views of local communities and national organisations.

[Albert Owen]

The Minister is being as helpful as he can. On the planning issues, he indicated earlier that when the recommendation is made to the Secretary of State, the same time frame that existed under the old system, which did not get a chance to develop, will be used. Will he indicate roughly what period that will involve? If the companies and developers are going to submit this autumn, when is the unit likely to make its recommendation to the Secretary of State, and how long will the Secretary of State take?

[Charles Hendry]

A consultation process is ongoing. The expectation of the IPC was three months, and we will be looking at the same sort of period. We will be able to provide further clarity in due course. The other advantage of our approach is that it reduces the risk of judicial review. If someone who is accountable to Parliament—someone who can be called before Select Committees, or who can attend debates in Westminster Hall and elsewhere—has responsibility for a decision, it can clearly be shown that that has received greater democratic scrutiny and it is therefore more robust.

My hon. Friend the Member for Bridgwater and West Somerset also rightly mentioned nuclear waste. We must focus clearly on how we manage the new generation of nuclear waste and spent fuel, as well as the legacy issues. When the Secretary of State and I visited Sellafield recently, we were both struck by the magnitude of the challenge facing the Nuclear Decommissioning Authority. It has put in place significant measures to try to deal with nuclear waste and we now have a system that addresses the magnitude of that challenge. However, we must also ensure that measures are in place to deal with the safe disposal of the new waste that will be generated as a result of a new-build programme.

On the hosting of installations, we have been encouraged to note that three local communities in Cumbria have come forward. We are certainly keen to know whether other communities wish to come forward, because we are absolutely committed to a voluntarist approach. The process will not work if it involves the Government saying to a community, in a national lottery style, “It’s going to be you.” The local community must buy into the process, be keen to participate and understand the benefit that it would get from hosting a facility. It has been instructive to see how that has been done elsewhere. A couple of years ago, I went to Sweden to look at how it is carrying out such a process. Two communities were bidding against each other to host a facility because they could see the benefits. It is clear to us that that will be an important part of the process as we go forward.

We recognise that if we are to stimulate the sort of investment that my hon. Friend talked about, further signals to the market will be necessary. There is a great deal that we can do to remove regulatory burdens and streamline the process. However, at the same time, we recognise that there needs to be greater clarity about the carbon price. I am therefore pleased that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor announced in his recent Budget that a consultation on the carbon price will take place this autumn, with a view to setting a floor price. Investors need to know what carbon price they will be paying when these plants come online. It is important to state that such a measure is not a subsidy for nuclear, because we believe that the carbon floor price will drive investment in all low-carbon technologies—nuclear, coal with carbon capture, and renewable technologies. That is one of the most important decisions we will make during this Parliament for the sector.

Finally, I shall mention some of the education issues. It is clear that the people who currently work in the nuclear industry are part of an ageing work force—some 80% of today’s industry work force will retire by 2024. Those people have fantastic skill sets and an enormous amount to contribute to the industry, but we must do more to bring a new generation of people into the sector. I am pleased that there have been collaborative projects—for example involving the nuclear advanced manufacturing research centre, to which the Government have committed more than £33 million. That will help to ensure that we take forward opportunities and bring business into the UK supply chain, which we consider to be an important part of the issue. My hon. Friend mentioned the facilities at Bridgwater college. I am glad that it will receive more than £4 million to launch the south-west energy skills centre, which is a specialist nuclear skills training centre. I am also encouraged that EDF already trains about 2,500 people a year nearby at Barnwood, which shows some of the commitment that it is bringing to the sector.

In conclusion, this could be one of the most important energy and industrial sectors for Britain. My hon. Friend is right to say that it is a national issue that needs to be treated as a national challenge and opportunity. I hope that what I have said reassures him of the seriousness with which we are addressing the matter.

Sarika Singh

Tuesday 13th July 2010 Westminster Hall

12:59

[Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab)]

I am grateful to have secured this debate, and to be here under your chairmanship, Mr Streeter. I welcome the new Minister to his post. I hope he hears what I am saying—I welcome the new Minister to his post.

Sarika Watkins-Singh is a young Welsh Punjabi Sikh. In November 2007, as a 14-year-old, she was excluded from Aberdare girls school in my constituency, for refusing to remove the kara, a steel bangle that she wore as an integral part of her Sikh religion. The headmistress had told Sarika that she was not permitted to attend the school wearing the kara, and tried teaching her in isolation, away from her friends and fellow pupils. However, Sarika rightly and bravely continued to argue that she should be allowed to wear the kara, and so the headmistress excluded her from the school.

This has been a sad case from the start, because all that was needed was a bit of common sense and not much more than a cursory understanding of the law. I told the school, first privately and then publicly, that it was making a mistake, and that its action represented a considerable injustice to the young girl. I told the school that if it persisted it would cost it money. I met Sarika and her mother and tried to speak to governors of the school. I spoke to colleagues here in the House of Commons and was told that the civil liberties organisation, Liberty, had already become involved. It seemed clear to me that the school’s action contravened the Race Relations Act 1976, the Equality Act 2006 and the Human Rights Act 1998. I urged the school and its governors to think again, and to act in the interests of good race relations. Unfortunately, the school stubbornly stuck to its position.

Sarika, showing courage and determination far beyond her years, continued to stand up for her right to practise her religion and exhibit her Sikh identity, and she pursued a legal case against the school through judicial review. Of course, she won her case, just as I had predicted. The High Court found that the school had indirectly discriminated against Sarika on the grounds of race, contrary to the Race Relations Act, and on the grounds of religion under the Equality Act. As the constituency MP, I repeatedly warned the school and the governors that they should uphold the law and not waste public money on the case. My advice was simply ignored.

In the aftermath of the legal case, it seemed to me that the school had some big questions to answer. It was obvious from the start that the school would lose the legal case but it stubbornly went ahead with fighting it, at, I suspect, considerable expense to local taxpayers. I then asked, on behalf of my constituents, how much the legal case had cost the school and from where the money to pay for it would come: would it come from the school’s budget—the budget to pay for school books, teachers and resources for the pupils’ education—or had the local authority agreed to provide other public money to support a foolish and unwinnable case? I also wanted to know how the decision to fight the case had been reached. Obviously, I am not a lawyer, but it seemed pretty clear that the school would lose. What legal advice, therefore, had enabled the school and its governors to come to their ill-informed decision to defend their position? The school is, of course, a public authority for the purposes of the Freedom of Information Act 2000, and so under that Act I requested that information—and more—of the school’s governing body.

I am sorry that this is a lengthy list of events, but it is important to put it on the record. In brief, I first wrote to the chair of governors on 20 February 2008. Following exchanges of letters, it was clear that I was not getting answers on what public money was being spent on the case. I therefore notified the school in March 2008 that I intended to make requests under the Freedom of Information Act. I wrote again to the school on 15 May 2008, requesting that an internal review be conducted, a step required of me before I made any complaint to the Information Commissioner. After the school refused my request, I contacted the Information Commissioner on 29 July 2008, requesting answers to my questions. I also sent a copy of the letter to the school.

I received a reply from the Information Commissioner on 11 September 2008, recommending that the school issue me with an internal review decision within 20 days. The school replied on 16 September 2008, stating that the internal review

“had been delayed by the intervening court case and school holidays”.

It said that my requested review would therefore take place on 24 September 2008. On 23 October 2008, I was notified by the clerk to the governing body that the only answer that the school would disclose was that the judicial review claim had, to date, cost the school £76,699.40.

Following the legal case, I began a fresh request for information in March 2009, by which time there was a new chair of governors. I requested the information and the school ignored my letter. I wrote again on 16 April 2009, and the school denied having received my first letter. The chair of governors then acknowledged the copy that I sent to them of my letter, but was not able to provide any of the information. I replied to him in May 2009, suggesting that we extend the deadline by another 20 days. The school then replied on 27 May 2009, refusing to provide the information, but not giving appropriate reasons in line with the Freedom of Information Act. I wrote to the school on 9 June 2009 asking it to conduct an internal review of its decision to refuse to provide the information. The school replied on 6 July 2009, sticking to its decision to refuse to provide the information. I wrote to the Information Commissioner on 15 July 2009, initiating a complaint under the Freedom of Information Act. The Information Commissioner’s Office wrote to the school on 7 October 2009, and the chair of the governing body wrote to me on 8 October, disclosing that the costs in relation to the judicial review had escalated to £170,000.

The Information Commissioner had given the school until 4 November 2009 to provide a copy of the disputed—withheld—information and to give any further arguments it had for withholding information. On 23 November 2009 the Information Commissioner said:

“Unfortunately, the authority initially struggled to understand the role of the Information Commissioner’s Office (the ICO) as regulator of the Freedom of Information Act 2000…I am however pleased to confirm that it now has a full understanding of our role and is working towards providing a full response by the 7th December 2009”.

Three weeks later, the Information Commissioner wrote again, saying that, unfortunately, despite her assurances in her letter of 23 November 2009 that the authority now had a full understanding,

“it appears that the Authority still does not fully understand the role of the ICO. The Commissioner has today therefore issued an Information Notice to the Authority…compelling a Public Authority to provide the Commissioner with a copy of the disputed (withheld) information. The Authority has 30 days…from the date of the Notice to comply. Failure to comply may result in the Commissioner making written certification of this fact to the High Court…I do however hope that this will not prove necessary”.

We are now in July 2010, and I am still being sent around in circles. I believe that the school fully understood the situation but was still playing for time. In a letter dated 19 January 2010, the Information Commissioner told me that the 30-day deadline for a response from the school had passed. The ICO said that it was writing to the governing body again, giving it a further 14 days to respond, and thanked me for my continued patience. My patience has now run out.

On 20 January, the ICO said that the matter had been passed to the Information Commissioner’s solicitors because the school had appealed to the First-tier Tribunal (Information Rights). The ICO informed me on 27 April that it had decided to cancel the first information notice, and that it had written on two further occasions to request the information from the school, but that the information remained outstanding.

In my letter of 17 May, I asked why the original information notice dated 17 December 2009 had been cancelled. I was told that it was on the advice of the ICO’s legal team, because—it is worth emphasising this—the governing body of Aberdare girls school had complained that the notice was addressed to Aberdare girls school rather than to the governing body of Aberdare girls school. The ICO admitted that that was an error and sincerely apologised for it, but clearly this is just another excuse by the school for yet further delay.

The ICO issued a second information notice in May 2010, but the school appealed to the First-tier Tribunal (Information Rights) on 27 May. In a further letter on 27 May, the ICO stated that it cannot make further progress in the investigation of my complaint until the tribunal makes a decision.

More than two years on, that is where the case sits now. I am told by the ICO that further progress cannot be made with the investigation of my complaint until the tribunal has ruled on the appeal, and that that is likely to be some months away. In effect, the school has run rings around the law to avoid explaining how much money has been wasted on a stupid, ill-considered action to defend the indefensible.

The Campaign for Freedom of Information published a report in July last year about delays in investigating freedom of information complaints. Its survey showed long delays in the processing of such complaints. The report states:

“The severe delays described here are sufficiently serious and widespread to undermine the FOI Act’s effectiveness and public confidence in it.”

That is very much my view.

I am aware that the ICO’s annual report will be published tomorrow. Perhaps the Minister might be able to say something about that. However, whatever the deficiencies in the ICO or the law, the advent of the Freedom of Information Act should be celebrated. It was one of the triumphs of the Labour Government, and it enables us, the public, to subject public authorities to the kind of scrutiny that was never possible before. It gives us access to all the inconvenient and embarrassing bits of information that some public authorities would rather not disclose.

However, public confidence and the effectiveness of the Act are being undermined by the difficulty in pursuing complaints against authorities that refuse to release information that the Act requires them to release. The problem is that it is just too easy for public authorities to obstruct the process. If they ignore enough letters, miss enough deadlines and pretend that they do not really know what is happening and why, they will be able successfully to evade an information request for a long enough period to diminish the detrimental impact, reduce embarrassment and avoid the accountability that release of the information would cause. In this case, a possible reorganisation in the near future of the school concerned means that accountability can be brushed under the carpet because it suits the authority concerned.

I assure the House that I will not let this case rest until the truth—the whole truth—comes out, and those who are responsible for what has been done to their community and for impoverishing the resources of the school are named. Their actions have been irresponsible and a disgrace. Deadlines must be more strictly enforced. A reply being required within 20 days should mean that failure to provide a reply in that time is a breach of the Act and subject to sanction, and failure to release information that is required under the Act should also be a breach of the Act and subject to sanction.

The Sarika Singh case received national news attention. It led on the “News at Ten” and made the headlines in many newspapers. It was a long and arduous case for a courageous 14-year-old schoolgirl to go through, and it was an important and contentious case for my constituents. It established important precedents for schools throughout the country in respect of respecting pupils’ rights to give expression to their religion. The public have a right to know how the governing body of Aberdare girls school came to its decision to pursue the legal case and, in particular, how much public money was spent.

Yesterday, I received an addition to my vast file of correspondence on the subject. I received a letter from the commissioner, which states:

“I very much regret that this case is taking such a long time to resolve. You may know that the public authority in the case is strongly resisting my Office’s investigation. Most unusually, I have had to resort to the Information Notice procedure to secure cooperation and both Notices have themselves been appealed…This case is most untypical of Freedom of Information Act casework undertaken by my office.”

The case has cost the school at least £170,000, but I do not yet know whether that is the full extent of it. The final figure is yet to be revealed—it may well be much more. As an elected representative, I have asked questions of the school and its governing body on behalf of the public. All the information is held by the school, and none of it is difficult to provide. I believe that the reasons for non-disclosure have been to shield those who are responsible from the disapproval of the public for reasons that they may now regret.

13:09

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Jonathan Djanogly)]

I congratulate the right hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd) on securing this debate on a matter that I am sure will be of interest to many hon. Members because of its wider impact. I thank her for working with the Justice Department in preparation for the debate and would like to say up front how much I admire her determination in this case to seek transparency from a public body as provided for by the law.

The Government are committed to enhancing transparency, as was made clear by the coalition agreement. We are already making available a wide range of information in line with the agreement. For example, the Treasury’s combined online information system, or COINS, database on UK Government expenditure, which was provided by Government Departments, has been published at www.data.gov.uk. The website also has information about special advisers working in Government Departments, as well as the numbers of staff, consultants, contractors and agency staff working in Departments, agencies and non-departmental public bodies.

That is just the start. Much more information will be made available over the coming weeks and months to increase transparency and accountability in the public sector. Of course, proactively making information available forms just one part of our commitment. Ensuring the effective operation of the Freedom of Information Act is also key to transparent and accountable government. It is vital that the public be able to request information that is of interest to them directly from public authorities, and that that is provided where it is in the public interest to do so. But the buck does not stop with the public authority. It is equally important that the Act be enforced in a robust and timely manner by the Information Commissioner. The same applies in relation to the other legislation that the commissioner has responsibility for, such as the Data Protection Act 1998.

The issue of robust and timely regulation is the focus of this debate. The right hon. Lady is right to be alert to the challenges that continue to be posed by the maintenance of a robust and efficient FOI regime. However, I hope that she will understand that it would be inappropriate for me to comment on the specific case at the heart of this debate, as it is ongoing and is the subject of an appeal to the First-Tier Tribunal General Regulatory Chamber.

The right hon. Lady has made plain her feelings about the situation. She is correct to identify delays in processing requests at the Information Commissioner’s Office, which were highlighted in the report published in July 2009 by the Campaign for Freedom of Information, as she mentioned. She also noted that the original information notice was wrongly issued due to ICO error, but that she has received an apology from the ICO in relation to that.

The CFI report highlighted a catalogue of delays based on an analysis of almost 500 decision notices issued by the Information Commissioner’s Office between 1 October 2007 and 31 March 2009. The report calculated that it took an average of 19.7 months to issue a decision notice and stated that it took between one and two years to issue a decision notice in 46% of cases. In one quarter of cases, it took between two and three years to issue a decision notice. Although those figures say nothing of the many cases that were resolved informally, without recourse to a decision notice over the period, it was still a pretty damning picture. However, very significant progress has and is still being made to rectify that situation.

The current Information Commissioner, Christopher Graham, took up office in June 2009, just before the Campaign for Freedom of Information published its report. Following his appointment, Mr Graham recognised the impact that the backlog of cases has had on the performance of his office and announced his intention to

“put a shock through the”

FOI

“system”.

The clearance of the backlog of FOI cases was identified as one of his top priorities. I am pleased to say that he has made significant progress in clearing the backlog of old FOI cases that he inherited. In the first three months of 2010 alone, for instance, more than 1,000 cases were closed; the number of cases over one year old was halved; and the average age of cases fell by 34%. Those impressive results have continued. Between 1 April 2009 and 1 April 2010, the number of cases more than two years old fell by 91% and the number of cases more than one year old fell by 72%. That is a very significant achievement, of which Mr Graham and his staff can be justifiably proud, especially in the face of rising demands for the ICO’s services. However, both Mr Graham and the Ministry of Justice recognise that there is no room for complacency. Efforts to maintain and improve the level of performance must be maintained.

The commissioner will publish his annual report tomorrow, as the right hon. Lady said. Although she will understand that I cannot disclose its contents today, I have no doubt that she will be encouraged by the progress that it will show.

The current economic climate is, of course, extremely challenging, but the Government are committed to providing the ICO with the best deal possible to maintain its progress and to fulfil its vital role. I have to say that this is not just about money; it is also about people and expertise. I am sure that the right hon. Lady will be interested to know that three experienced caseworkers have been seconded from central Government, helping to cut through the ICO’s backlog.

The commissioner has made great strides to improve the efficiency of his operation to provide increasing value for money. That is evidenced in the remarkable increase in case clearance that I have just mentioned. The programme of work is holistic and ongoing and includes a fresh look at all processes; the integration of FOI and data protection staff to achieve greater flexibility in the ICO’s resources; the introduction of a triage system for casework; greater emphasis on the informal resolution of cases; the production of more concise decision notices; and increasing the numbers of staff authorised to sign off formal decisions.

Of course, the speed with which requests are dealt with is only one part of the picture. An effective commissioner must have sufficient enforcement powers to hand to perform his role—a point made strongly by the right hon. Lady—including the power to require a public authority to provide him with information through an information notice, and a power to require a public authority to take a particular course of action, through an enforcement notice. The commissioner has stated that he will readily use those powers against public authorities and has increasingly done so. It is worth bearing it in mind that non-compliance with either an information or enforcement notice from the commissioner is a criminal offence. That has been key to ensuring greater compliance from recalcitrant authorities. However, in a democratic society, it is only right that a public authority has a right of appeal against such notices and the FOI Act provides for that.

Sometimes the process can feel frustratingly slow for those trying to access information. The right hon. Lady knows how it feels, as she said during her long description of what she had to go through. I understand that she wanted to put the process on the record so that we can learn from what happened in her situation. However, we should not allow frustration to override the right of public authorities and requesters to challenge decisions where they think they have a right to do so.

Debates such as these prompt us to reconsider whether the ICO’s powers of enforcement and public authorities’ right of appeal are appropriate, fair and balanced. I can assure the right hon. Lady that we will keep returning to the matter, because it is of central importance in ensuring that both individuals and organisations can exercise the rights that we want them to have. Any unnecessary obstacles, such as delays, must be—and are being—tackled to make sure that personal data are protected and that information that should be released is released as quickly and efficiently as possible.

It is important that we continue to support the commissioner, as his work is at the heart of the Government’s transparency agenda. The commissioner will publish his annual report tomorrow and the right hon. Lady will have the opportunity to see it. I am sure that she will be pleased to note the steps that the Government have already taken and will continue to take to make more information available to the public, shedding light on public affairs, from the corridors of Whitehall to the meeting rooms of borough councils and local schools.

The right hon. Lady specifically asked me to say whether the commissioner has enough power to regulate the freedom of information regime effectively. We believe that, as things stand, that is so. The powers are there. The commissioner can issue information notices, which require public authorities to provide the information requested, and can issue enforcement notices that do not require an initial complaint to be made to the ICO. One can technically start off with an enforcement notice straight away, if it is appropriate. It is a criminal offence not to comply with those notices, and if public bodies do not comply the commissioner can refer the matter to the courts to be dealt with as contempt of court.

Under section 49 of the Freedom of Information Act, the commissioner presents annual reports to Parliament, as will happen tomorrow, on the exercising of his functions and can lay further reports as he sees fit. Those reports can raise criticisms of public bodies’ handling of FOI. Furthermore, under schedule 3, if the commissioner reasonably suspects that public bodies are failing to comply with any of the requirements of the Act, he can seek a warrant from a circuit judge, granting the ICO the right to inspect premises, seize information and retain it for as long as necessary, unless it is under cover of legal privilege.

Minor Injuries Services (Devizes)

Tuesday 13th July 2010 Westminster Hall

13:30

[Claire Perry (Devizes) (Con)]

I am grateful to you, Mr Streeter, for chairing the debate. I believe that your constituency is also devoid of minor injuries units, so you might pay particular attention to the debate. I am also grateful to colleagues, including my hon. Friend the Member for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson), for taking time out of their hectic schedules to attend. I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Hexham (Guy Opperman), who, as many will know, worked selflessly on the judicial review that resulted from the shutdown of services at Savernake hospital. If I had a pound for every time I was told during my selection campaign, “If Guy Opperman was standing, you would not stand a chance,” I would be a very rich woman today. Thankfully, we have both made it to this place and can campaign together on this and other important topics.

I am also especially grateful to the Minister for attending, as I know that the launch of his team’s momentous proposals yesterday means that he must have an extremely long “to do” list. I would also like to mention briefly my local paper, the Gazette and Herald, which is a tireless campaigner against the loss of our local health services, as well as the hundreds of other individuals in the constituency who have protested, petitioned, written letters, held meetings and tried their best to roll back the tide of closure and service erosion.

I want to mention briefly the DASH2 group—Devizes Action to Save Our Hospital—and the new Devizes health matters forum, which was set up only this month to try to resolve the impasse we have reached. I will also mention the CASH group—Community Action for Savernake Hospital—which fought long and hard to keep open the day hospital and the minor injuries unit at Savernake hospital in Marlborough. That hospital was completely rebuilt in 2005 under a PFI contract that will cost taxpayers almost £70 million over 25 years, but the services at its core—the day hospital and the minor injuries unit—closed less than a year after it reopened. The hospital now hosts a multitude of services completely unrelated to local health care, such as the eating disorders clinic for patients of the Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire mental health partnership, while Wiltshire primary care trust scrambles to pay its unitary charges.

For my constituency, which is the 25th largest in England by land area and home to more than 91,000 people, the past 13 years of NHS management has meant multiple top-down initiatives, a continual reshuffling of priorities and the management of local health services by quangos. The result is clear: a slow and steady erosion of our local health services, despite the protests of clinicians, patients and politicians. Let me refresh people’s memories of what we have lost. In the Devizes hospital, the UNICEF award-winning maternity unit, the in-patients’ facilities, the minor injuries services and now the X-ray department have all gone. In Marlborough, the day hospital, the maternity unit, the minor injuries facilities and now 50% of in-patient beds have also gone. That pattern has been replicated throughout the rest of Wiltshire as services have been farmed out to neighbourhood or community teams—they can deliver good outcomes in some cases, but not all—or concentrated in larger hospitals in Swindon, Bath and Salisbury.

In January 2007, Wiltshire PCT set out its vision for services in the now infamous document “Reforming community services in Wiltshire”, which announced the closure of minor injuries units in Devizes and Marlborough and the axing of a host of other services, which was driven in large part by the burgeoning financial deficit that the PCT had inherited after the merger of three other organisations. In my view, the loss of reliable local minor injuries services was the most keenly felt of all the changes. My constituents literally have nowhere to go locally if they suffer a fall, cut, wound or some type of minor trauma. Nurse practitioner-led minor injuries units had served the constituency well for years. They were well used, cost-effective in comparison with sending patients to far more high-spec accident and emergency departments, and extremely popular. Indeed, with the exception of the head of the PCT, I could find no one—literally not one person—who though that it was a good decision to close those minor injuries units and ask people to travel instead to Trowbridge, Chippenham, the Great Western hospital or a walk-in centre in Swindon, the Royal United hospital in Bath or Salisbury district hospital.

My constituency ranks among the 20 lowest by population density in England, with only 20 people per hectare. Members who have visited Devizes—I hope that many will—will know that there are almost no dual carriageways, no railway connections between our major towns and few direct bus services. As a result, there are extended journey times, which is particularly problematic for families or individuals without full-time access to private transport, who account for 25% of the people in Devizes.

[Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con)]

I thank my hon. Friend for giving way in this crucial debate that she has secured for Wiltshire residents. I want to highlight a concern that supports her specific point about public transport. When the Great Western hospital in Swindon was set up in my constituency, there was an emphasis on green travel, so there was a limit on parking provision. The residents of Devizes who are sent to Swindon almost invariable come by car, and there simply is not adequate parking provision.

[Claire Perry]

I thank my hon. Friend for that important point. We have built hospitals following the sound principle of encouraging local travel and walk-ins, but the major service review forgot that most bus services do not run to the existing services from the places where minor injuries services used to be provided. In fact, it is impossible to take a bus from Marlborough to any of the six suggested units for minor injuries services.

I was interested to learn what the current PCT guidance recommends, so last night I phoned NHS Direct and asked what I was to do if I had a bad cut and lived in Pewsey, which, as many will know, is in the centre of my constituency and, as home to around 4,000 people, one of the largest villages in the area. I was advised to go to Swindon hospital’s A and E unit, which is considered to be a journey of only 16 miles. However, as we know, the concept of “as the crow flies” does not give a good indication of distance in rural constituencies. In fact, a simple search on Google maps reveals that that journey takes between 38 and 46 minutes by private car, which is far too long for a mother of a child with a bleeding head wound, or the carer of an older person with a fracture that needs immediate attention.

Let us consider the journey that the residents of Honeystreet, a lovely village in the heart of my constituency, would be advised to take to get to the nearest service. By private car, it would take them 37 minutes to get to Chippenham hospital, or 40 minutes to Trowbridge hospital. In fact, there is only one other constituency with a lower population density and no minor injuries provision: South West Norfolk. Most of the other spread-out rural constituencies are blessed with more than one such unit. Indeed, they trumpet their facilities as being appropriate for populations in a rural area. North Devon has four units, Rutland and Melton has three, and the nearby constituency of The Cotswolds also has three units. Those constituencies all have population densities that are similar to or slightly lower than that of Devizes.

We might all be asking how the situation has arisen. I submit that it is because decisions about our local health care have been taken by decision makers who were unelected and unaccountable, and often uninterested in the local consequences of their actions. It was not because they were bad, malicious or unintelligent—there are many good and dedicated health care professionals in the PCT—but because the whole system rewarded top-down compliance with central Government diktat and ignored the needs and wishes of the population. Indeed, when I went to see the head of Wiltshire PCT only last week about the proposals in the White Paper that we have heard about, he said that he had no intention of reopening the minor injuries units that we have lost and that there was no case for doing so. I would like the Minister’s opinion of whether a case can be made for those services.

I would like to cite four facts to frame the debate. The population in my constituency, as is the case across much of rural Britain, continues to grow. There is a population flow from the cities to the villages and hamlets of the UK. The population in my constituency has increased by 5% since the turn of the decade. Indeed, part of the support for the redevelopment of Savernake hospital resulted from the prediction of 20% population growth in the Swindon area.

The Alberti report “Emergency Access”, which was published by the NHS in 2006, suggested that it was better clinically and more cost-effective to send patients out of A and E departments and into local urgent care centres where more nurses, paramedics and nurse-led emergency care practitioners could be used to treat them. I am grateful to the PCT for providing data showing that, in the past year, there have been 17,086 attendances by patients registered in my constituency at the minor injuries units in Trowbridge and Chippenham, and the A and E departments in Salisbury and Bath. As I have already stated, the journeys that people have to take to access those facilities are unacceptable. The cost of providing the services at the current tariff is £1.352 million.

With our new localism agenda, and given the cost that the PCT is paying for minor injury services for my constituents, surely a business case could be made for restarting a minor injury service in the constituency, as long as the total cost was below the current tariff. Some doctors in Devizes and Marlborough have expressed an interest in restarting the service and having it delivered by nurse practitioners located in their practices. Premises are certainly available in which the service could be located, including the half-empty and shuttered Savernake hospital.

Will the Minister tell us how, in the light of our NHS reforms, we can move the process forward? The current PCT, which will be in existence for at least another two and a half years, has no interest in recommissioning the service, so can we go around it in the interim period and use sustainable communities legislation, for example, to get back those services that we so desperately need?

[Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD)]

I commend the hon. Lady on securing the debate. Some years ago, when the closures first happened, we petitioned Wiltshire county council’s health overview and scrutiny committee to intervene on our behalf. I will be grateful if the Minister indicates whether it had a role to play in standing up for the residents, constituents and patients who have written to the hon. Lady and me. Melksham in my constituency has lost its minor injury unit, and it was far closer to her constituents than the one in Chippenham.

[Claire Perry]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that excellent point. It is interesting that a subtopic of the debate is the PCT’s failure to deliver a new primary care centre in Devizes, which was promised as part of the quid pro quo when the closure announcements were made. When I suggested last week that perhaps the time had come to rip up the original plans that seem to be stymieing progress, return to the drawing board and ask whether we can deliver a hospital in Devizes under the current constraints, I was referred back to the council’s overview and scrutiny committee, which clearly has an important role to play in defining the services that we need for our local community. Will the Minister say whether, instead of waiting until 2013, we can submit pilot proposals to the national commissioning body when it is up and running and start to make progress, for example by looking for voluntary sector partners to begin a pilot programme?

There are few things that unite all the people in my constituency, but the feeling that we have been short-changed by our PCT and the NHS over the past 13 years is almost universal. I am sure that we are all united in welcoming the exciting proposals that the Secretary of State announced yesterday, and I know that the ideas of equality, excellence and liberating the NHS, and the possibility of getting back some of our minor injury services, make my pulse beat a little faster.

13:43

[The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr Simon Burns)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes (Claire Perry) on securing this important debate. I know that local health services are a top priority for her and that she campaigned vigorously before coming to the House, and has done so since, as we have heard today, on behalf of her constituents to ensure that she obtains the best health care provision for the people she so ably represents. I admire her dedication and determination in fighting that battle for her constituents. I pay tribute to the NHS staff in Devizes and throughout Wiltshire for the excellent care and dedication that they provide day in, day out when looking after my hon. Friend’s constituents and those of other hon. Members in the county.

My hon. Friend is aware that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has launched our White Paper on liberating the national health service. It is our vision for freeing the NHS from the shackles of politicians and bureaucrats in Whitehall, giving power to people locally, and working with clinicians and general practitioners to provide those services that local communities in Devizes, Wiltshire and the country need. It is a vision for making the NHS more accountable to patients, whether my hon. Friend’s constituents in Devizes or people elsewhere. We want to free staff from excessive bureaucracy and top-down control. We want patients to be at the heart of everything that the NHS does and we want local people to have more choice and control than they have ever had and a greater say in their treatment, their needs and their health requirements. People in Devizes and the other small towns and villages that my hon. Friend mentioned will be in charge of making decisions about their care and provision of health requirements.

My hon. Friend has outlined the strength of feeling in her constituency for local minor injury services, and the support for the NHS generally. The minor injury units for Devizes and Marlborough at Savernake community hospital closed in September 2007, and my hon. Friend and her constituents were, understandably, disappointed at the decision, and have been frustrated by the difficulties and delays that have resulted from it. I am aware that people living in different parts of her constituency access different minor injury units, including those at the community hospitals at Trowbridge, Chippenham, Andover and Newbury, and that minor injury treatment continues to be available at the A and E departments in the acute hospitals in Salisbury, Bath and Swindon. As my hon. Friend rightly said, transport access causes problems for some of her constituents. I have considerable sympathy with the points she made about that.

I am also aware that my hon. Friend’s constituency covers a large rural area. She gave some interesting figures and comparisons with other rural constituencies when making her point so powerfully. I understand her desire for local minor injury units that are accessible as quickly as possible to her constituents. But I must be frank with her. Given where we are at the moment and the processes that have taken place in her county and constituency on reconfiguration of services, I am unable to ask the NHS to open previously conceded processes, or to halt those that have passed the point of no return. I know that that will disappoint my hon. Friend, but I am afraid that at the moment we are where we are because of previous decisions and the degree to which they are in process.

My hon. Friend asked what could be done, and whether pilot schemes could be introduced as a forerunner to the abolition of PCTs in 2013, and she suggested other ways of working with outside interests. I want to give her as clear a steer as possible, and unfortunately, until the PCTs are closed and cease to exist in 2013, due processes and proper procedures must be adopted to move forward. Until they are phased out from 2013, the PCTs will continue to have the same responsibilities that they have now for the provision and commissioning of health care in the areas for which they are responsible, including Wiltshire.

[Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con)]

I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes (Claire Perry) for carrying on the work that we have all been doing for a considerable period on hospitals in Wiltshire. I spent three years of my life trying to keep them open. The Minister is saying that in reality, whatever the situation, despite the Health Secretary saying in 2007 that clinical need should justify closure, despite this being fundamentally an accounting measure, and despite decisions apparently not being reviewed before 2013, people are desperate for a hospital to reopen that is pre-existing, prepaid and sitting there—

[Mr Gary Streeter (in the Chair)]

Order. I remind the hon. Gentleman that interventions should be brief.

[Guy Opperman]

It is a long question. I apologise, Mr Streeter, but the hospital is still there, and capable of being used. With the greatest respect, I fail to see why it is not being used.

[Mr Burns]

I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s intervention and I fully appreciate his frustration at the situation. I also appreciate the greater frustration of my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes, because her constituency is directly affected by the issue that we are discussing. I repeat: we are where we are. We have a vision of a health service that works from the bottom up rather than the top down. However, until the changes occur, we are in a straitjacket because of procedures currently in place that have to be adopted.

Before the intervention by my hon. Friend the Member for Hexham (Guy Opperman), I was responding to the question from my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes about the way forward. I hope to give her a glimmer of hope and I will give her some advice about how I see the situation, both as a constituency MP and as a Minister. As long as we are in what is effectively an interim period since the publication of yesterday’s White Paper, with the PCTs still commissioning services and having the lead role, I advise her to continue her spirited and dedicated campaign to get what she seeks for her constituents. She should continue seeking to persuade the PCT, local clinicians, GPs and the local community to stay onside in the desire to establish a minor injuries unit, and ensure that the other care services she mentioned are instigated for her constituents. At the moment, that route is the only way forward because the PCTs are the commissioning agents.

I urge my hon. Friend to continue her campaign in the hope that during the interim period over the next three years, she will see a change of heart if that is possible. If it is not possible, when the changes come in, she should use the new system to seek to persuade those in charge of reconfigurations and the provision of services to reinstate the services that she so passionately and rightly believes are needed and deserved by her constituents. That is my advice. It may not be as palatable as she would hope, but I know that she will appreciate and understand that under current circumstances, we have not yet changed the system. That vision was announced yesterday and it is a vision for the future.

[Claire Perry]

By 2013, if we get our ducks in a row, get our clinicians onside and our draft contracts drawn up, will we be able to present that business plan—in whatever forum we are in—to the national commissioning body and have some chance of success? Is there hope that within a three-year period before the next election we might get those services back under a new contract commissioned by the central body?

[Mr Burns]

Obviously, I cannot give a commitment that my hon. Friend would be successful. I wish her well in her endeavours, but it is not for me to prejudge what might happen. She is certainly right that if she puts all her ducks in a row—as she put it—with a business plan for what she believes her constituents need, she can present it to the national commissioning board and to GP consortiums in her area. Everybody will then work together, and make an overwhelming case for what my hon. Friend wants to see delivered for the local people of Devizes and her constituency.

As my hon. Friend will accept, “The times they are a-changin’”. The Government’s approach is different from the top-down approach taken by the previous Government. We believe that local decision making is essential to improve outcomes for patients and drive up quality. We will do more than just talk about pushing power to the local level; as the Secretary of State’s White Paper shows, we are going to do it and make the dream a reality. That will be of considerable help to my hon. Friend in her campaign.

Given my hon. Friend’s experiences during her ongoing battle, she will agree that we must move away from having Whitehall dictate how care should be delivered in Devizes, Westbury or any other town or village in Wiltshire. We believe that change must be driven from the bottom up, and that the patient must be the heart of health care provision. The patient must be put first; their interests and quality of health care is the No. 1 priority, not the decisions, ramifications and shenanigans of politicians and civil servants.

In future, all service changes must be led by clinicians and patients, not driven by Ministers such as me, or civil servants from the Department of Health. Only then will the NHS achieve the quality improvements that we all want to see.

[Duncan Hames]

In his search for local accountability in decision making, it would be helpful if the Minister advised hon. Members where in the process the public’s demand for these services will be heard. Is there a role for locally elected politicians to secure influence in determining outcomes through the health overview and scrutiny committees of our local councils?

[Mr Burns]

If the hon. Gentleman refers to current arrangements, he will no doubt be aware that in late May, the Secretary of State announced changes to the criteria that need to be taken into account in any reconfigurations currently under way—providing that those reconfigurations are not so far advanced that it would be impossible to reverse them—and any future reconfigurations. The main priorities include taking into account the views of local people, clinicians and GPs and ensuring that health care is relevant for the local area.

If the hon. Gentleman is asking what will happen after the changes in the White Paper, let me say that once the PCTs are wound down and abolished, there will be a transfer of powers to the national commissioning board and all that flows downwards from that. Provision and responsibility for the commissioning and delivery of health care in a local area will be linked to local authorities, and accountability will be through local authority input with locally elected representatives. Public health is currently dealt with through the input from the primary local authority level in each area. That is where the accountability will be. The predominant point is that because one must have a locally driven health service, the wishes of the patient—not only in their individual care but in the requirements of the local community—must be fundamental to the decision about units or configurations. I hope that the hon. Gentleman and my hon. Friend are reassured by that.

In conclusion, I once again pay tribute to my hon. Friend for her commitment and dedication in fighting so hard for her constituents, not only before the election but afterwards. She has been in the House for about eight weeks, and she has already made her mark fighting for her constituents on the issue that she promised, during those long days in April, to take to Westminster. She is now in Westminster and has brought the issue to the debate today. I have every confidence that she will continue to use the means available to her in the House to pursue her agenda, and that she will mobilise support in her constituency to ensure that the issue does not go away. She will be determined to get what she believes to be the best health care for her community, and I wish her every success.

14:00

Sitting adjourned without Question put (Standing Order No. 10(11)).

Written Ministerial Statements

Tuesday 13th July 2010 Written Statements

Tuesday 13 July 2010

Bank Levy

Tuesday 13th July 2010 Written Statements

[The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr Mark Hoban)]

The Chancellor of the Exchequer announced as part of the Budget the introduction of a Bank Levy from 1 January 2011.

Excessive risk taking in the banking sector was a significant contributory factor in the recent financial crisis. Alongside the wider financial regulatory reform aimed at increasing the resilience of the financial sector, the levy is intended to ensure that the banking sector makes a fair contribution that reflects the risks it poses to the financial system and the wider economy, and to encourage banks to move away from riskier funding.

The Government have today published a consultation document setting out issues around technical aspects of the design and implementation of the Bank Levy. This consultation exercise will help to ensure the levy is designed in a way that best meets its objectives, including ensuring the compliance costs faced by firms are minimised.

It is proposed that draft legislation will be published in the autumn to allow for further comments from stakeholders. Final draft legislation for inclusion in the 2011 Finance Bill will be published towards the end of 2010, ahead of implementation of the levy.

Copies of the consultation document are available in the Vote Office and have been deposited in the Libraries of both Houses.

Independent Public Service Pensions Commission

Tuesday 13th July 2010 Written Statements

[The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Danny Alexander)]

Lord Hutton’s terms of reference and “Call for Evidence” are available in the Vote Office and in the Printed Paper Office, and have been deposited in the Libraries of both Houses.

Periodic updates of the Commission’s work will be made available through the website, located at: www. hm-treasury.gov.uk/indreview_johnhutton_pensions. htm.

State Visit (Qatar)

Tuesday 13th July 2010 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr William Hague)]

I am pleased to announce that Her Majesty the Queen has invited His Highness the Emir of the State of Qatar, Sheikh Hamad bin Khalifa Al-Thani, accompanied by his Consort Her Highness Sheikha Mozah bint Nasser Al-Missned to pay a state visit to the United Kingdom from 26 October to 28 October 2010. The visit will further the close relations that exist between the United Kingdom and the State of Qatar.

Health Select Committee Report on Commissioning

Tuesday 13th July 2010 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Andrew Lansley)]

We are today laying before Parliament the Government’s response (Cm 7877) to the Health Select Committee report on commissioning, which was published on 30 March 2010.

The range of the Health Select Committee’s inquiry and their report recognise the scale and complexity of the challenge we face. Commissioning is a crucial process in the NHS. It ensures that the health and care services provided effectively meet the needs of the population. It is a complex process with responsibilities ranging from assessing population needs, prioritising health outcomes, procuring products and services to managing service providers.

Since the Health Select Committee’s inquiry, there has been a change of administration following a general election in May 2010. The Command Paper published today therefore sets out the present coalition Government’s response to the Health Select Committee’s fourth report of the session 2009-10.

The White Paper, “Equity and Excellence: Liberating the NHS”, published on 12 July 2010, sets out our proposals for transforming the quality of commissioning by devolving decision making to local consortia of GP practices supported by an independent NHS Commissioning Board.

The weaknesses in commissioning identified by the Health Select Committee are symptomatic of a system that did not emphasise the importance of clinical involvement in decisions about how the precious resources of the NHS should be spent. We have set out in the White Paper a clear sense of direction, with new rigour and the commitment to put commissioning decisions in the hands of those who are closest to patients themselves—GP practices and other primary care professionals.

Today’s publication is in the Library and copies are available to hon. Members from the Vote Office.

Informal Health Council

Tuesday 13th July 2010 Written Statements

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Anne Milton)]

European Union Health Ministers met in Brussels for an informal meeting of the EPSCO (Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer Affairs Council ) Council on 5 and 6 July. I represented the UK.

The morning session of 5 July consisted of a discussion of EU-level collaboration on cancer. A number of member states indicated their support for greater information sharing and production of comparable data on cancer outcomes at EU level.

There was also discussion of the EU’s response to the A(H1N1) pandemic (building on the expert conference held on 1 and 2 July by the Belgian presidency). Discussion focused upon the issues of vaccine procurement, and the wider EU co-ordination of pandemic response.

The EU structures for responding to health emergencies (such as pandemics) were also discussed. This included a discussion of the possibility of revising the mandate of the Health Security Committee, whose mandate expires in December 2010.

Battery Technology (Correction to Written Answer)

Tuesday 13th July 2010 Written Statements

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Norman Baker)]

I regret to inform the House that there was an inaccuracy in the answer I gave to parliamentary question 5072 on 5 July, Official Report, column 9W, about the research that had been undertaken on battery technology. The £3 million competition that was launched on the 24 June and to which I referred to in my answer, was in fact launched by the Engineering and Physical Sciences Research Council, which is a non-departmental public body sponsored by the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. It was not launched by the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills itself.

Grand Committee

Tuesday 13th July 2010 Grand Committee

Tuesday, 13 July 2010.

15:30

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Colwyn)]

My Lords, welcome to the first session of the Grand Committee in this new Parliament. Before the Minister moves that the first order be considered, I remind noble Lords that, in the case of each order, the Motion before the Committee will be that the Committee consider the order in question. Motions to approve the orders will be moved in the Chamber in the usual way. Of course, if there is a Division in the House, the Committee will adjourn for 10 minutes.

Legislative Reform (Licensing) (Interim Authority Notices etc) Order 2010

Tuesday 13th July 2010 Grand Committee

Considered in Grand Committee

15:31

Moved By

[Baroness Rawlings]

That the Grand Committee do report to the House that is has considered the Legislative Reform (Licensing) (Interim Authority Notices etc) Order 2010.

Relevant document: 8th Report, Session 2009-10, from the Regulatory Reform Committee.

[Baroness Rawlings]

My Lords, the order before us today was laid before Parliament on 10 March by the previous Government. It will extend five time periods under the Licensing Act 2003. First, it will extend the period during which specified persons may issue an interim authority notice, known as an IAN, following a lapse caused by the death, incapacity or insolvency of the licence holder from seven to 28 days. Secondly, it will extend the period during which a person may apply for reinstatement on transfer of the licence to that person following its lapse from seven to 28 days. Thirdly, it will extend the period during which an IAN has effect from two to three months. Fourthly, it will extend the period during which the police may object to a temporary event notice, known as a TEN, from 48 hours to two working days. Fifthly, it will extend the period during which the police may object to an IAN from 48 hours to two working days.

These relatively minor changes have been requested for some time by those affected by the legislation. In particular, the British Beer & Pub Association and various licensing lawyers have requested the extension of the seven-day deadlines. Also, the Association of Chief Police Officers has requested the change to the police objection period. It has told us that the current timescales are too short and that this amounts to an administrative burden. By allowing more time to conduct these procedures, we will help businesses going through difficult times and assist the police in the conduct of their duties. Therefore, we are seeking to complete the process of parliamentary scrutiny and to bring these changes into force as soon as possible.

The previous Government conducted a consultation on these measures alongside unrelated proposals to allow the police discretion to accept TENs received without the required notice of 10 working days and to remove the requirement that local licensing authorities consult on the publication of a new licensing policy statement every three years. The consultation ended on 9 February this year. There were 74 responses, covering a wide cross-section of those affected by the changes, including local authorities, the licensed trade and the police. Several of the responses were from national representative bodies responding on behalf of their memberships. These included the British Beer & Pub Association, Local Authorities Co-ordinators of Regulatory Services and the Association of Chief Police Officers. There was near unanimous support for the proposals, which were subsequently brought forward in this order. The other proposals, although generally supported in principle, received a more mixed response. The previous Government therefore decided not to proceed with them.

The House of Lords Select Committee on Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform and the Commons Regulatory Reform Committee both unanimously approved the LRO. Their reports were published on 25 March. I am grateful to the committees for their work in scrutinising this order.

I shall deal first with the elements that are designed to make it easier to administer the affairs of licence holders after death, incapacity or insolvency. In brief, the order will allow them a longer period to transfer the licence. Under the Licensing Act 2003, anyone who wishes to sell alcohol or to supply it to a members’ club, to put on regulated entertainment or to provide late-night refreshment must obtain authorisation. This can be a temporary event notice, a club premises certificate or a premises licence.

Ordinarily, businesses that include licensable activities, such as pubs, supermarkets, off-licences and late-night takeaways, will do so under a premises licence. This licence is held in the name of an individual and lapses automatically if the holder of the licence dies, becomes mentally incapable or becomes insolvent—alternatively, in the case of a company, if the company becomes insolvent or is dissolved. This could, of course, have a damaging effect on the business and on those with an interest, such as the landlord or employees. Therefore, the Act makes provision for the revival of the licence after such a lapse. There are two mechanisms: reinstatement on transfer and an interim authority notice.

A reinstatement on transfer is, in practice, the most common method of reviving a lapsed licence. The licence is reinstated by transferring it permanently to another holder. The process is similar to the ordinary transfer of a licence that has not lapsed. In particular, if the chief officer of police is satisfied that the exceptional circumstances of the case are such that the transfer would undermine the prevention of crime, he has 14 days to issue a notice stating so.

Alternatively, someone with a prescribed interest in the premises, such as a freehold interest, or a person connected to the former holder of the licence, such as their personal representative or a person with power of attorney, can apply for an interim authority notice, or IAN. This is a less frequently used procedure in practice, because the authority that it provides is, as the name implies, only temporary. Currently, the maximum length of the interim authority is two months. The licence will lapse again unless it is transferred during this period. The order will extend the maximum duration of interim authority to three months. Respondents to the consultation said that this would be invaluable in some circumstances and did not identify any risks in this modest extension. When an IAN is issued, the chief officer of police has 48 hours to issue a notice relating to crime prevention. The order will extend this period for police objection to two working days. I shall return to this point later in the context of the TENs, for which a similar procedure exists.

On the extension of the deadline for the issue of an IAN or reinstatement on transfer, for both processes there is currently a deadline of seven days after the licence lapses in which steps can be taken to revive it. The most important element of the order before the Committee is the extension of that period to 28 days. The impact assessment published with the consultation set out estimates for the savings that this will make for businesses. It estimates that the extension to 28 days will have significant benefits for those managing the affairs of a business after bereavement or insolvency. In particular, to use estimates provided by local licensing authorities on the number of applications received after the deadline, it could mean annual savings of around £5.2 million to £9.7 million in lost turnover. Additionally, there would be a modest £0.4 million saving annually in the fees and administrative costs currently caused by the need to reapply for lapsed licences.

More important than these financial calculations, perhaps, are the compassionate grounds for extending the deadline. The British Beer & Pub Association said in its response to the consultation:

“There have been well documented cases of the distress caused where licensees have died and relatives have struggled to cope with the seven day period as currently exists. There is no justification or reason that we can see for such a short timescale regarding this process. The current requirements place an unnecessary burden on licensees at a sensitive time”.

Medway Council also supported the proposal and said:

“We have had situations where the licensee died and the family were unable to put in an interim within the 7 days due to bereavement and making funeral arrangements. The licence lapsed and this caused the family considerable distress as they had to close and reapply for a licence”.

The main motivation for this order is to make certain that such situations do not recur.

In comparison with other processes under the Act, such as a new application for a premises licence, the processes for interim authority and reinstatement on transfer are relatively light touch. In particular, it is only the police who can object on crime and disorder grounds and not, for example, environmental health departments on public nuisance grounds.

15:43

Sitting suspended for a Division in the House.

15:52

[Baroness Rawlings]

Nevertheless, the extension of the timescales described will leave sufficient safeguards in place to ensure that the public are protected. For example, all the conditions of the licence will continue to apply and the consequence of breach is the same as usual, including a potential six-month sentence on conviction. Any sales of alcohol still have to be supervised by a designated premises supervisor. This individual is required to possess a personal licence and to have undergone a criminal record check. The powers of search and entry, as well as the police and magistrates’ power of closure, continue to apply in respect of any licensed premises. Any interested parties, including residents and responsible authorities, such as the police, can apply to the licensing authority for a review of the licence.

The extension of the police objection period for temporary event notices and IANs enables the user to carry out licensable activities, including sales of alcohol and the provision of regulated entertainment on an occasional basis, without any other authorisation.

The TENs regime is light touch; in particular, only the police may object to a TEN on crime and disorder grounds. On the other hand, various limits apply to TENs to minimise the potential impacts; for example, no more than 499 people can attend the event at the same time and there can be no more than 12 events per year at the same place. Currently, the TEN must be copied to the police at least 10 working days before the event. The police have to have a maximum of 48 hours to issue an objection on crime and disorder grounds. An analogous 48-hour period applies to interim authority notices.

There is evidence to suggest that in some circumstances the current 48-hour objection period does not give the police the time intended and that that may sometimes limit or prevent the police from making a proper assessment of the risk of crime and disorder. An example is where a TEN is delivered to a police station that may be unmanned on a Friday night, so that the TEN is not received by the chief officer of police until the following week, by which time the objection period will have expired. Therefore, the order seeks to extend the 48-hour period to two working days for both TENs and IANs. That small change should make certain that the police always have sufficient time to consider notices properly.

There was almost unanimous approval from those who responded to this part of the consultation for the extension of the police objection period to at least two working days. The consultation document also asked for views on an extension to three working days in the case of TENs. The majority who expressed a preference opposed the further extension to three working days. Therefore, the order before the Committee proposes two working days. Although the police consider this change to be important, we do not consider that the extension would mean a significant net increase in police objections. That is because some police objections that may currently be made on a precautionary basis may not be made if the police have sufficient time to satisfy themselves about concerns. A very small number of respondents were opposed to any extension of the deadline for police objection for either TENs or IANs or both. The main argument was that the current 48-hour period causes no problems. That was contradicted by the overwhelming majority of responses, including all those from police representatives.

The order before the Grand Committee will assist business during difficult periods. It will also assist the police in making assessments of risks of crime and disorder. I commend the order to the Committee.

[Lord Evans of Temple Guiting]

My Lords, I am sure that everyone in the Grand Committee is grateful to the Minister for her full and clear exposition of the order. As she said, this was originally published when Labour was in government and, although not only for that reason, we welcome the order. I have three fairly minor questions for the Minister and I would be grateful if she could let me know what she feels about them. First, we are looking for an assurance on the substantial cuts to police budgets and the coalition’s desire to see freezes to local authority budgets. Will that impact on the police’s ability to object to local authorities to administer interim authority notices? Secondly, in the case of temporary event notices we understand that the change from 48 hours to two working days is proposed because some police stations are not staffed at the weekends. The coalition is proposing substantial cuts to front-line policing. Can the coalition assure us that the police’s ability to object to TENs will not be compromised by cuts to front-line policing? Finally, do the Government have any plans to change the fees for temporary event notices? Those are the only three comments that I wish to make. Again, I thank the Minister for such a clear presentation of the order.

16:00

[Lord Addington]

My Lords, having looked through the order and the rather daunting Explanatory Notes, I realised that basically this series of changes is designed to make it easier for everyone involved to operate. Extending the period from seven days to 28, as proposed, is a positive suggestion. The idea of going to working days rather than an arbitrary number of hours for police objections is another totally sensible suggestion, as are the other extensions of periods that are brought in. When the previous Government and the current Government have proven something, it would be foolhardy to go beyond that.

[Lord Dholakia]

My Lords, the Minister mentioned that she does not envisage any substantial police objections. Was there any consultation with the Association of Chief Police Officers on this matter? Sometimes there may be individual points of view from different constabularies, but seldom do we get a total view. It would be helpful to know whether such consultation took place and, if so, the response.

[Baroness Rawlings]

My Lords, I am most grateful to noble Lords for their questions, which I hope to be able to clarify. I can assure the noble Lord, Lord Addington, that there will not be any further cuts in that respect. As to the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, we have had several consultations. The list is in the dossier. The objections were included in what I said earlier. I can send the noble Lord the details of the consultations. I thank him for that rather important point.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Evans, for his three questions. First, I should clarify that the Delegated Powers Committee said that the order needed to be an affirmative instrument so that it would have to be approved and so that a positive case would have to be made for it. As an affirmative instrument, it must be approved, which is why we are doing this today. The committee stated:

“The Committee considers that the Order meets the tests in the 2006 Act, is not otherwise inappropriate for the LRO procedure, and recommends that it be upgraded to the affirmative procedure”.

The noble Lord also asked whether the Government intend to charge a fee for a temporary event notice. At the moment, the fee for a TEN is £21. The Government have no plans to change that. Regarding cuts, we estimate that the change to the TENs objection period would have an extremely small notional burden on the TEN users of £8,000 to £61,000 annually in England and Wales. We have no plans to cut the licensing fees. The fees are set to cover the cost of administering and enforcing the licensing programme. Those costs should not fall on the taxpayer. However, we will look to deregulate where possible and, where regulation is needed, to reduce the burden.

The third question concerned the revival of licences. I imagine that by “applications”, the noble Lord means reinstatement of transfers. The estimate is 494 to 658 additional revivals of licences per year.

I thank the Committee on behalf of the House for having scrutinised the order. I can give assurances that we treat this matter with all seriousness. I am sure that any future licensing legislation will be the subject of lively debate and that there will be further discussions on this subject. I am sure that noble Lords recognise the positive benefits of this measure and its importance. As Walter Bagehot said in 1867:

“The natural impulse of the English people is to resist authority”.

I trust that, in these circumstances, that will not be the case. I commend the order to the Committee and welcome the furthering of the recommendations.

Motion agreed.

National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Housing and Local Government) Order 2010

Tuesday 13th July 2010 Grand Committee

Considered in Grand Committee

16:07

Moved By

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has now considered the National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Housing and Local Government) Order 2010.

Relevant document: 12th Report, Session 2009-10, from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.

[The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace of Tankerness)]

My Lords, I beg to move that the Grand Committee does report to the House that it has considered the draft National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Housing and Local Government) Order 2010. For ease, I shall henceforth refer to this order as the housing LCO. This is the first LCO that I have spoken to in this House. It is a particular pleasure to deal with devolution issues that relate to Wales after many years of being more familiar with devolution issues that relate to Scotland.

This draft housing LCO was approved by the National Assembly on 24 February. The previous Government laid the draft LCO before Parliament in March. For whatever reason, no time was found to debate the LCO in either House before the general election. I am pleased that the coalition Government committed to take forward the housing LCO in our programme for government, which is what we are doing. The draft LCO was approved by the other place on 7 July, having been debated in Committee on 5 July, and it comes before this Grand Committee today for debate only two months after the coalition Government took office.

Noble Lords may be aware of the discussions that have taken place between the coalition Government and the Welsh Assembly Government in relation to the scope of this LCO. I shall address that issue immediately. The coalition Government have been concerned that this LCO devolves legislative competence that the Assembly would not necessarily need. The Assembly Government are committed to seeking legislative competence to suspend the right to buy in areas of housing pressure. However, competence in the LCO covers disposals of social housing generally, including abolition of the right to buy. Indeed, as I understand the situation, when an LCO on this issue was first proposed in 2008, the Welsh Affairs Committee in the other place recommended that it should not proceed while it included the ability to abolish the right to buy. We are grateful indeed for the reassurances given by the Welsh Assembly Government that they are fully committed to the right to buy scheme and have no intention whatsoever to abolish it.

The coalition Government are similarly grateful for a further reassurance from the Assembly Government not to seek powers to usurp the views of local people and dictate the location of Gypsy and Traveller sites. Given these assurances, and our commitment to progress this order through Parliament before the Summer Recess, I am pleased to support this LCO today.

[Lord Rowlands]

I apologise for interrupting the Minister, but as this is a vital point perhaps we might clear it up straightaway. He says that an assurance has been given, and I am sure that that is true, but paragraph 7.23 of the Explanatory Memorandum states that,

“legislative competence would enable the Assembly, if it so wished, to replace the current Right to Buy scheme with improved and updated schemes to assist home ownership”.

That suggests that the Assembly might abolish the scheme but replace it with something else. Does the present competence order still allow the Assembly to do such a thing?

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My understanding is that it does, although equally I understand that it is the intention—if only that of the present Welsh Assembly Government, which would not bind their successors—to use this to suspend the right to buy in areas of housing pressure. I understand, on the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Rowlands, that they could do what the Explanatory Memorandum suggests.

The agreement to take forward this LCO, following three years of some frustration and procedural hurdles, demonstrates the success of a relationship of mutual respect and collaboration between Westminster and Cardiff. I am sure that noble Lords will agree that, in the new politics of this new era, mature attitudes of co-operation and compromise are signs of strength, not of weakness.

I turn to the detailed content of the draft order. The order will devolve legislative competence in relation to many aspects of housing policy, enabling the Welsh Assembly Government to propose legislation to implement their new housing strategy Improving Lives and Communities: Homes in Wales. The strategy is to be implemented through an action plan and it is my understanding that in some areas this will require primary legislation. I hope that this LCO will facilitate the implementation of the strategy. Indeed, I understand that earlier today the First Minister announced the Welsh Assembly Government’s legislative programme for 2010-11. He announced plans to introduce a housing Measure, making use of the legislative competence devolved to the National Assembly via this LCO, subject to its being passed and subsequently approved by the Privy Council. As I think the First Minister indicated, it would allow for local authorities to apply to Welsh Assembly Government Ministers for the temporary suspension of the right to buy in areas of housing pressure, as well as increasing those Ministers’ intervention powers in relation to social housing.

The draft order is structured around two key themes: social housing and meeting the housing needs of vulnerable people. The LCO would also devolve competence in relation to the amount of council tax charged on second homes. Specifically, it will insert seven new matters, Matters 11.2 to 11.8, into Field 11, the housing field, of Part 1 of Schedule 5 to the Government of Wales Act 2006. It will also insert one matter, Matter 12.18, into Field 12, the local government field.

Taken together, Matters 11.2 and 11.3 would allow the Assembly to legislate to strengthen powers of early intervention in failing housing associations and modify the approach taken to allocations. Matter 11.4 would allow the Assembly to legislate to standardise local authority and housing association tenancy agreements, thereby removing an impediment to stock transfer. Matter 11.5 covers the disposal of land held or used for social housing. The One Wales agreement includes the commitment to,

“draw down legislative power … in order to suspend the Right to Buy in areas of housing pressure”.

The Assembly Government want temporarily to suspend the scheme in specific local circumstances to address local difficulties. As I have said, Assembly Government Ministers have made it clear that they have no intention of abolishing the right to buy in Wales.

Matter 11.6 covers housing-related support to those who need help to occupy their homes. Matter 11.7 is about provisions by local authorities of caravan sites for Gypsies and Travellers. The Assembly Government intend to propose legislation compelling local authorities to provide sites for the accommodation of Gypsies and Travellers when a need is clearly identified. The coalition Government are grateful to the Assembly Government for their assurance that they will not seek routinely to dictate to local authorities the location of these Gypsy and Traveller sites.

16:15

Matter 11.8 covers homelessness. The Assembly Government may legislate to tackle the underlying causes of homelessness and to place a stronger emphasis on homelessness prevention. Finally, the National Assembly would be able to legislate to increase the amount of council tax charged on dwellings that are not a main residence as a result of Matter 12.18.

The LCO was subject to pre-legislative scrutiny by the Constitution Committee of this House, the Welsh Affairs Committee in the other place and a committee of the National Assembly. I am grateful for the thorough scrutiny carried out by those committees. The Constitution Committee of your Lordships’ House, on which the noble Lord, Lord Rowlands, and I had the privilege to serve—I do not think that I was present when this order came before it—concluded that this LCO raises no issues of constitutional principle.

The Welsh Affairs Committee recommended that matters in the LCO relating to social housing would be clearer by being merged into a single matter. However, if that were done, the new matter would require exceptions and carve-outs, which the committee had previously recommended should be avoided. Therefore, those matters have not been changed and some of the definitions have been clarified. The committee also suggested that the name of the LCO should more accurately reflect the matters that it contains. After a great deal of consideration, it was concluded that the title of the LCO should continue to follow standard drafting convention and include the names of the fields in Schedule 5 to which the LCO relates—on this occasion, housing and local government. Finally, the Explanatory Memorandum was further clarified in relation to the definition of the terms “homelessness”, “Gypsies and Travellers” and “caravan”, as used in the LCO—specifically, references to Gypsies and Travellers were capitalised.

I hope that noble Lords will agree that this LCO devolves competence across many important aspects of housing policy, thereby enabling broad-ranging legislation to be brought before the National Assembly for Wales. This coalition Government share the Assembly Government’s frustration that the devolution of housing powers has taken some considerable time to come about—perhaps it is a frustration shared by other Members of the Committee here today—but nevertheless here we are. We are pleased that, as a result of some honest and open discussions between Ministers in Whitehall and Ministers in Cardiff Bay, there is a broad consensus for taking forward this legislative competence order. I hope that the spirit of co-operation will continue. In that spirit, I commend the order to the Committee.

[Baroness Gale]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his statement today, which I very much welcome. I congratulate him on his appointment as Minister responsible for Welsh affairs. As he said, this is the first time that he has spoken on such Welsh matters, but I am also aware of the Minister’s great service in Scotland, both as an MP and as an MSP, where he served as Deputy First Minister in the Lib-Lab coalition from 1999 to 2005. I am sure that in time the Minister will realise that Welsh politics are very different from Scottish politics. No doubt, the number of distinguished Welsh Peers on both sides of the coalition Government will be able to advise him on the nature of politics in Wales. I wish him well.

The housing LCO has taken considerable time to get to its final stages. The original housing LCO was considered by the Welsh Affairs Committee in 2008, having been submitted by the Welsh Assembly Government in 2007. At that time, reservations were expressed by the Welsh Affairs Committee regarding the draft and the contradiction between the Explanatory Notes and the LCO, specifically on to the right to buy. The Welsh Assembly Government undertook a consultation and elaborated considerably on the approach to social housing. There were several reports, the most important of which was, we believe, the Essex report. Many of its recommendations were incorporated in the new housing LCO.

That revised LCO was considered by a scrutiny committee of the Welsh Assembly and by the Welsh Affairs Committee in another place during the previous Parliament. Conservative members of the Welsh Affairs Committee voted against the housing LCO, objecting to the reference to the Welsh Assembly Government having reserved power to ensure that the local authorities in Wales provided sites for Gypsies and Travellers. They also believed that the LCO should not make any reference to the lifting of the right to buy.

As the general election approached, it seemed that the LCO would have to go into the wash-up, but unfortunately for the Welsh Assembly no agreement could be reached because of the Conservative Party’s objections, which were set out in a letter dated 1 April from the then shadow Minister for Wales, David Jones, to the then Under-Secretary of State for Wales, Wayne David. It outlined the two objections to the proposed order. It stated:

“We … are concerned that … it would give the Welsh Assembly competence to abolish the right to buy. You will recall that during the select committee evidence session I questioned both you and Jocelyn Davies closely on this issue. Both you and she confirmed that it was no part of the Assembly government’s policy to abolish the right to buy. In those circumstances therefore the competence … is otiose. Secondly, the order would empower the Assembly to pass Measures that would give Welsh Ministers the right to impose a location of Gypsy and traveller sites upon local communities. The Conservative Party believes very strongly that the local authorities are best placed to decide the location of traveller’s sites, being closer both democratically and actually to the affected communities”.

The Conservatives went on to make it clear that they would not agree to the housing LCO as it stood, so it was not included in the wash-up, much to the disappointment of those in the Welsh Assembly who had been waiting for a conclusion to this matter.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees]

My Lords, there is a Division. Is the noble Baroness about to wind up her remarks?

[Baroness Gale]

No.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees]

We will come back to the noble Baroness, Lady Gale, after the Division. The Committee will adjourn for 10 minutes.

16:22

Sitting suspended for a Division in the House.

16:32

[Baroness Gale]

As I said, the housing LCO could not be included in the wash-up, much to the disappointment of those in the Assembly who were waiting for a conclusion to this matter. A report in the Western Mail on 24 June stated:

“Conservative Wales Office Minister David Jones said he was not prepared to allow Ms Davies’ Sustainable Housing Legislative Competence Order (LCO) through unless it was amended to make clear that the right to buy council houses would not be abolished in Wales … Politicians at Cardiff Bay have been trying for three years to get legislative powers relating to housing transferred to them. An earlier version of the LCO was knocked back while Labour was in power, and the new coalition at Westminster has rejected the latest draft … Meanwhile Welsh Liberal Democrat housing spokesman Peter Black claimed that the veto of the LCO breached the Westminster coalition agreement. The relevant clause in the agreement states: ‘We will take forward the Sustainable Homes Legislative Competence Order’”.

On 29 June, the Wales Office issued a press statement:

“In the spirit of mutual respect between Westminster and Cardiff Bay, the Welsh Office will take forward the Assembly’s Sustainable Housing LCO unamended, Welsh Office minister David Jones announced today (28 June) … Mr Jones said: ‘Last week Deputy Minister for Housing Jocelyn Davies and I reached an amicable agreement on an amended Order to be taken forward. But having made further enquiries, the Welsh Office established that it would in practice be virtually impossible for the amended Order to complete its passage through Parliament to enable it to be put to the Privy Council for approval in July. We therefore decided, in pursuance of the spirit of mutual respect and in reliance to the assurances given by the Welsh Assembly Government to proceed to put the original draft LCO in its unamended form before both Houses of Parliament for confirmation as quickly as possible, so that the Order may be made by the Privy Council next month’”.

Why was there this change of heart? After all this time, in the matter of a few days—between 24 June and 28 June—why did the Wales Office Minister decide that the original LCO was now able to proceed?

Whatever the reason, we are pleased that there has been this complete U-turn from what the Conservatives were saying before and after the general election. This is welcome news. At long last the Welsh Assembly will get the LCO that it wanted, which will bring about a much improved method of social housing in Wales, meeting the needs of the Welsh people in a more positive and constructive manner.

[Lord Roberts of Conwy]

My Lords, I, too, welcome my noble and learned friend to his new position in the coalition Government and I wish him well, particularly in relation to Wales.

As we have heard, this LCO has been a long time coming, but not under this Government. In fact, we have made up for whatever delay there was under the previous Government. However, it is now here and I do not intend to delay its passage, although I am not entirely uncritical of it. We are, after all, transferring extensive legislative powers in the housing field in this order and those of us who have previous governmental experience in this area are anxious to assist the National Assembly and its Government to exercise those powers in the best interests of the people of Wales. I had ministerial responsibility for housing in Wales in the early 1980s when the right of council tenants to buy their rented properties was first introduced to Wales, much against the wishes of local housing authorities. Of course, the right to buy quickly became a popular policy with sitting secure tenants and has remained so over the years.

According to the Explanatory Memorandum—page 8, paragraph 7.20—there have been some 140,000 sales in Wales, which is almost half the original social housing stock. The right to buy was not abolished during the 13 years of Labour rule, so one may conclude that it was accepted by the major parties. The Assembly has, however, reduced the maximum discount available from £24,000 to £16,000 and has extended the rural areas where there are restrictions on resale of right-to-buy properties. So perhaps the right to buy is not sweet music to everyone’s ears.

The benefits and advantages of owner occupation to the owner and to society are obvious and I shall not rehearse them. The key fact to remember is that the secure council tenant who becomes a buyer takes an immediate interest in the maintenance and improvement of his or her property and no longer waits for the council landlord to cut the privet hedge, subsidise the rent and perform all the functions of a responsible landlord. There is a tendency on our part now to forget just how heavy a burden housing subsidy and repair and maintenance costs can become on housing authorities and taxpayers. Those who are intent on increasing social housing should consider these factors and realise what they are letting themselves in for in terms of cost when the stock is enlarged.

A local authority’s housing stock may be reduced as a result of right-to-buy purchases, but the locality’s total available housing stock is undiminished. That point, too, is often overlooked or ignored. When the house is sold to its tenant, some people take the view that that house seems to have disappeared, but that is not the case.

As my noble and learned friend said, assurances have been given by the Assembly Government Minister, Jocelyn Davies, that the intention of the Assembly is not to abolish the right to buy but to limit sales in areas of housing pressure. There is nothing new in that. Limitations were imposed on council house sales in sensitive areas such as the national parks from the earliest days and such restrictions continue. They are not confined to Wales; they also apply in the Lake District, for example.

What is important in this right-to-buy context, in this order more generally and in the legislation that may flow from it, is that the best interests of the individual and his or her rights should be preserved and not overridden to enhance the control and power of authorities over citizens’ lives, as has happened in the past. There is a great deal of talk these days about more powers for the National Assembly; indeed, we are about to have a referendum on the issue next year. I for one would like to hear more talk in our representative institutions about the devolution of powers to a more local and community level. This is why there has been such concern about an Assembly power to direct local authorities to provide specific locations for Gypsy and Traveller sites, irrespective of the views of local communities. The individual’s rights and well-being must also be carefully considered in the context of the provision in this order to allow increased council tax on second homes. Such decisions, taken too abruptly and in a sweeping fashion at the wrong time, could cause a severe decline in property values across whole swathes of Wales and could cause chronic rural depopulation, such as we experienced in mid-Wales in the previous century, to rear its ugly head again; it could at least worsen the depopulation problem.

Finally, we must recognise that we are facing an era of severe austerity as a result of the legacy of unparalleled debt that this Government have inherited from their prodigal predecessor. Many things that looked achievable at one stage no longer appear so. Adapting to our new and straitened circumstances will take time—longer for some than others—but adapt we must. One of the keys to such adjustment is to realise that the state and its ancillary authorities cannot do everything; they are restricted by limited resources and must, like the rest of us, live within their means. Where people and communities can do things for themselves, they must be encouraged to do so. There seems to me no credible alternative approach in the present circumstances.

16:45

[Lord Rowlands]

My Lords, I, too, offer my best wishes to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace. He has a remarkable record. He has served in not one but two coalition Governments, which is pretty good going. He and I go back a long way. In the 1980s, as young Back-Benchers—not so young in my case, but he was young—we spent some time trying to make Ministers’ lives more uncomfortable on various energy Bills. I welcome him. It is not our job to make his life more uncomfortable than necessary during his service to this House and to Welsh affairs.

Like other noble Lords, I believe that the role of this House in scrutinising LCOs is to consider the drafting and the process and to ensure, above all, clarity of competence, but not necessarily to pick at the policies, as the noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Conwy, has done. That is not our fundamental function, because those are the functions of elected Members; it is they who make the decisions and come to the conclusions that they do about whether we should adopt this or that policy. I have never adopted the view that we should take a strong political view, whether one feels strongly for or against an order politically. It is the duty of this House to respond on the process and clarity of competence. As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, reminded us, he and I served on the Constitution Committee, which began the task of scrutinising these LCOs when they first came into being.

There was an issue of clarity of competence on the right to buy. I was interested in the Minister’s reply to my brief intervention that the competence still stands. Paragraph 7.23 states that the order will give the Assembly the competence,

“to replace the current Right to Buy scheme with improved and updated schemes to assist home ownership”.

That is incorporated in this order; it has not been removed. I happen to support the policy, but I wonder whether the noble and learned Lord and I in our early Back-Bench days would have been as generous about this proposal as we plan to be today. We are saying to the Government that we can give the Assembly the power because it has told us that it is not going to use it. If I was a Minister proposing such a proposition, I would imagine a fair degree of criticism of such a position. However, that is the position that we have arrived at, with the Minister saying that the Government have had assurances that the power is not going to be used—although he admitted that that cannot bind future Governments in the Welsh Assembly. Nevertheless, we are going to let the power go through because it is not going to be used. I confess that that is normally an appealing case to Back-Benchers, wherever they stand on an issue. I look forward to a further defence of that position when the Minister comes to reply.

Before I come to the rest of what I want to say, let me make an aside. As the noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Conwy, said, there have been some 140,000 sales of council property. My constituency days are now more than 10 years ago, but I cannot remember towards the end of my period in the mid-1990s many right to buys being exercised in Merthyr and Rhymney. The first great swathe of purchases took place in the mid-1980s. I am interested to find out how much of a pressure there is. Can the Minister give us figures on how many sales took place last year under the right to buy? I fear and suspect that by far the largest portion of that 140,000 was purchased in the first decade. I wonder how much of an issue it is. Because I no longer have a constituency to serve, I accept that I may not have a feel for whether the pressures are still there and in what form and degree. Perhaps we could have some figures on recent purchases that have taken place—for the last 12 months, for example.

I do not want to quibble with the policy because I have full sympathy with the burden of the case made for this LCO, but I want to put this into an LCO context. I suppose that I belong to a small band of people—there are not many of us—who are fans of LCOs. I happen to be a fan because they arose out of the deliberations of the Richard commission, on which I had the privilege to serve. Wherever one stood on the issue of the full transfer of powers, LCOs were seen as an interim measure that would enable the Assembly to expand legislative competence. Therefore, I have been a great defender of the process and I continue to be one.

Before I sit down, I shall suggest to the Minister that, between now and the referendum, we should assess what has happened and the extent to which legislative competence has been transferred. For example, seven new matters are to be put into Schedule 5 as a result of this one order. When one looks at the informative Explanatory Memorandum and the appendix to it, which shows the other amendments that have been made to Schedule 5 to the Government of Wales Act, one can tot up more than 60 matters that have been included in the schedule since the passing of the Act, as a result of these orders and of framework powers in legislation. I contend that that is a significant and meaningful transfer of legislative competence from Westminster to the Assembly.

Despite the tendency to malign these orders, they have served a legislative purpose, which I am willing to defend wholeheartedly, as a means by which the Assembly has been given competence to legislate. Perhaps in reply the Minister could bring us up to date on how many LCOs there have been. I used to keep count, but an election and a couple of other things have interrupted my arithmetic. I thought that there were a dozen or 15 before, but perhaps he could give us an update on the number of LCOs that have passed through this House. I do not believe that either this or the other place has created a logjam for transferring legislative competence to the Assembly. These orders have gone through.

To date, how many measures in the Assembly have flowed from these orders? Have we been holding up the Assembly in its legislative activity? The last time I took stock, only a third of the LCOs had led to measures. Again, that would be useful informative background to the debates that will take place in the months to come on the transfer of power under Part 4 of the 1998 Act through a referendum. I would like an assessment of where we stand. How many measures have flowed from the orders that we passed in this place and the other place as a result of the 1998 Act?

My other question relating to the informed debate that we should have on these issues in the run-up to the referendum is: what, in total, will be left to transfer under Part 4 in the main areas of policy? Let us take housing, health and education. Paragraph 4.2 of the Explanatory Memorandum says:

“The Welsh Ministers already have devolved to them significant executive powers and secondary legislative powers across a wide range of legislation relating to housing”.

That has already happened. It lists 10 Acts that are involved. In the area of housing, health and education, how much legislative competence has already been transferred within the total responsibility of the Welsh Assembly Government? I have the impression that we have now substantially transferred a considerable degree of competence to legislate in these three key areas. This order is very much an addition to that list.

Finally, I seek clarification from the Minister on the exceptions. As he will know, when we have scrutinised other orders, exceptions have been attached to the order to show that the writ will not run in certain respects. In this case, the exceptions are of a general kind. Provisions relating to housing benefit and to council tax benefit are exempt or excluded from the power to legislate within the Assembly. In the wake, possibly, of a successful referendum, so that Part 4 comes into play, what will happen to these exceptions? Will they remain or will they be swept aside by Part 4? In other words, under Part 4, will the whole area of council tax and housing benefits be transferred legislatively to the Assembly, so that the Assembly can change the character of such benefits? Until now, we have maintained a degree of conformity and uniformity across England and Wales in social security benefits, particularly those for council tax and housing. I should like to see how this will unfold during the debates that we will have in the coming months.

I support the order, just as I have supported, with occasional queries and questions, the orders that preceded it. Once or twice, the Constitution Committee has raised serious issues about drafting. I hope that we can be confident that Assembly consideration of this kind of legislation after a successful referendum will be as vigilant as, I believe, that of both Houses and the Welsh Affairs Select Committee has been in helping us to scrutinise LCOs, which have been an important development in Welsh legislative history.

17:00

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno]

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Rowlands, for jumping to the pulpit ahead of me. Perhaps I may suggest a sermon. I look to the Epistle to the Hebrews, in which we hear about a race that is run quite slowly sometimes. This race has been run slowly: it has taken a long time to get the orders. I am told that for education 18 new powers have been transferred to the Assembly but that there has been only one new power for housing. I am told that most of them do not come from legislative competence orders but that 60 per cent of them come from Bills.

Speaking of the sermon, I feel that I am surrounded by a mighty cloud of witnesses, of people from various departments—for example, the Department for Health, the Home Office, the Welsh Office and others—who have worked at this over many years, which I appreciate. I know them and I call them my good friends, on whichever side of the House they may sit. They have battled away on the Welsh scene over many years.

It is a privilege to have two of my own party colleagues on either side of me. My noble and learned friend Lord Wallace has led in the Scottish Parliament and my noble friend Lord German has been the Deputy in the Assembly in Cardiff. I am lost in this place today. Since 1931, my Liberal colleagues have sat on opposition Benches. Suddenly, we are transferred to the government Benches. We are just settling in. It makes such a difference and it gives us the opportunity to stir things up as regards some of these legislative competence orders.

The hope is—I am sure that this is general to all parties—that in the spring the referendum on additional powers for the Assembly in Wales will result in a yes vote throughout Wales. I think that we have to do it. For one thing, it will save a lot of time and money on these orders coming here and we will be able to devote our time to other issues that possibly deserve more time than they get at present.

Two tests should be applied to this order, as to any other order, according to the Government of Wales Act 2006. The issues to be passed to the National Assembly must correspond to the executive functions of the Welsh Assembly Government—we are not able to introduce anything else—and must relate solely to Wales. Scotland led the way in the settlement that was reached. We have been saying, “If only we had the same powers as Scotland”. We are moving on this issue, but, as I say, the rate is slower in Wales. However, it will speed up after the spring. In Scotland, people knew which powers they had and which powers they did not have. In Wales, we have just kept on asking, “Please can you include such a power and such a responsibility?”. I am sure that this is not the correct way to say it, but we have been opting in, whereas Scotland knows which powers it does not have at present.

This housing order is important. It is a part of devolution in Wales. It gives us the authority to deal with housing matters in Wales. It has been mentioned that we could look at the sale of council houses or social houses. Like many other places, Wales has the problem that the situation differs from county to county, even from parish to parish. In some areas, the housing situation is so grave that it might be necessary—possibly not—to look again at the reasonableness of selling council houses. That could well be a necessity, particularly given the present crisis in which some people are losing their homes. If it gets to that desperate state, we in Wales will have the authority to say, “For the time being let us look at this area and this need”.

The order will add substantially to the powers in Wales. The Assembly Government must decide how they will use those powers. That is what government is about and what devolution is about. It is not that we keep on saying, “Don’t do this, don’t do that”. However, we have the authority in health, education, public transport and now housing to decide our own agenda. It must be within the Assembly’s competence. This order marks a significant move in the development of the Assembly’s powers. Therefore, we on these Benches wish it well. We wish the Assembly Members who will exercise this discretion all the wisdom and all the powers that they need to meet the needs of people in different parts of Wales.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords, I will detain the Grand Committee for only a very few moments. I, too, join everybody else in congratulating the Minister on his first foray into Welsh affairs in this Committee. I wish him every happiness and every success for the future. I agree very much with the precept that was articulated by the noble Lord, Lord Rowlands. We are not here to consider the basic merits of these devolved matters; we are here to say whether the procedures of devolution set out so clearly in Part 3 of the 2006 Act are properly adhered to. I say that because, like more than one Member of this Committee, I have heard it argued here over the past two or three years that there seems to be some onus of proof on whoever seeks to justify a measure of this nature to show that it has a fundamental benefit for the people of Wales. That is not what devolution is about. If we were to apply such a test, we would be going contrary to the principles set out in the 2006 Act in Parts 3 and 4.

I wholeheartedly support the measures. Indeed, having said that we should not consider them, I would say that they have every merit. In this respect, if ever there was a devolvable issue in relation to Welsh matters it must be in relation to housing or local government. We are dealing with a situation in which there are so many distinctive Welsh nuances that it cries out for devolution. The executive devolution took place a long time ago, soon after 1964, when the Welsh Office was set up. It is only right and proper that there should be primary legislative devolution to attach itself to that.

I take the point made by more than one Member of the Committee that nothing that we do here on these LCOs creates one word of legislation. All that we do is give a passport for legislation to take place in another place. We peg out an area and say to the Welsh Assembly that, now that it has asked for it, within that defined area it can build a legislative edifice. I am not sure how many Measures have come directly from LCOs; I suspect that it is about a dozen, with about half a dozen from other sources.

I have only one other thing to add. I thank whoever was responsible for the Explanatory Memorandum. It is one of the very best that I have read in relation to any legislation, but particularly in relation to these matters.

[Lord Jones]

My Lords, I support this order and wish the Wales Assembly well when it receives, operates and exploits it. Housing is the basic provision for any family life and I have no doubt that the Wales Assembly will always bear that in mind. The sum total of happiness will be advanced somewhat by the fact that these powers are coming nearer home for the people of Wales. The order will be operated by an Assembly that really believes in it.

I was glad to hear the noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Llandudno, make his speech. He will not mind my saying that it was a Methodist speech, perhaps in more than three parts just slightly so. I always listen with great interest to the noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Conwy. Nobody has served Wales longer than he has or with more dedication. He has great experience, which one hears in his observations on a matter such as this. I congratulate the noble and learned Lord the Minister on his appointment to his office. I saw his entry to the other place, I saw him leave it and I have seen him come back. He has made a strong beginning. I also offer most sincere congratulations to my noble friend on the Front Bench. Nobody knows Wales better than she. She knows Wales like the back of her hand and has served it with great compassion, conscientiousness and commitment. We will all wish her well on the Front Bench in her duties.

After the last general election in Wales, I took the trouble to go to the opening of the Wales Assembly by our sovereign Her Majesty the Queen. She was accompanied by the Consort, the Duke, and by the heir, the Prince of Wales—and he by the Duchess of Cornwall. Having been present in the Chamber looking down on the Royal Family, facing the Government of Wales and the Assembly, I thought that I was seeing some history. The conclusion that I draw from that moment is that the Welsh Assembly is for ever. It is an Assembly of stability and great potential. In any consideration of the order, one has the understanding of where it is going and how it will be best used to the advantage of the people of Wales.

It occurred to me that, having been present at that historic moment for the nation of Wales, I could not see how there would not be more legislative powers in time. I could see the status of the Assembly growing by the year. I could see its importance always advancing and it having more authority and power to raise more moneys, with its standing always growing. I saw the process as irreversible, but I asked myself, “Did the Assembly need to have more Members?”. I then asked myself, “Would this Parliament have fewer Members?”. I do not wish to debate that issue now—nor should I—but I suspect that our nation, Wales, is on track and that the British nation will see something approaching federalism in the decades ahead, whether that should be or not.

None of us, I suggest to the Committee, should be in ignorance of the consequences of what we are doing when we pass these orders for Wales. There is a consequence over and above the use of the order. I sometimes wonder whether Parliaments fully comprehend the consequences of the legislation that they make.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, this has been a positive and constructive debate. I start by thanking all the noble Lords and the noble Baroness for their kind words of welcome and congratulation. I consider it a privilege to be able to engage with noble Lords and, indeed, to re-establish some friendships and acquaintances from my time in the other place, particularly with the noble Lord, Lord Rowlands. Exactly 27 years ago this week—I am an anorak in this sort of thing—I served along with the noble Lord on my first Standing Committee in another place, which was considering the Petroleum Royalties (Relief) Bill. It certainly means a lot to me to be here and to engage with him again.

The noble Baroness, Lady Gale, suggested that I would, over time, get to realise that Welsh politics is different from Scottish politics. The learning curve has been very steep indeed but I had already appreciated that, although I am sure that there is still much more to learn. In fact, with the happy situation of belonging to a federal party along with my noble friends here, we have learnt from one another over a number of years how the body politic functions in different parts of our United Kingdom. I join the noble Lord, Lord Jones, in congratulating the noble Baroness on assuming Front-Bench duties. I rather suspect that there will be a number of occasions when we will be facing each other across the Dispatch Box, either in Grand Committee or in the Chamber, and I very much look forward to those encounters.

I welcome the fact that there has been broad agreement and support for the order. Perhaps I might respond to a number of the points raised. First, the noble Baroness, Lady Gale, made a point about the timing of the laying of the order. She asked why my honourable friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary had apparently changed his position. We could always go into forensic detail about what happened when in the weeks of February and March. My understanding is that the order could have been laid before Parliament before the wash-up. It does not necessarily help us today to speculate on why that did not happen. The point is that, after a bit of a troubled history when another order fell foul of the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, we have an order today that has commanded support.

17:15

On the press comments in the Western Mail and the press release issued by the Wales Office, the statement in the press release made clear why there was an apparent change in position. Indeed, my honourable friend David Jones indicated to the Committee in the other place that he had had discussions with Jocelyn Davies and that there had been an agreement to excise the provisions relating to the right to buy from the order—let us recall that that was the position of the Welsh Affairs Committee in 2008. However, it was then discovered that, to make that change, with all the procedures that would go with it, it would not be possible to get the order through before the Summer Recess, as we wish to do in order to give the Welsh National Assembly an opportunity to pass legislation, if it wishes to take advantage of the order, before the election in 2011. This is an example of the Welsh National Government and this Government being able to discuss these things in a mature way and to come forward with the right solution. I hope that we will be able to take that forward by consenting to this order when it is put to the whole House.

The noble Baroness mentioned the importance of the Essex report, which I understand has been an important part of the thinking in the development of the strategy that the Government in Wales produced earlier this year. We hope that we can facilitate its implementation by passing this legislative consent order.

My noble friend Lord Roberts of Conwy emphasised the importance of the right to buy. There have been 140,000 sales. The noble Lord, Lord Rowlands, asked about the experience over time of the right to buy. It has applied to over 46 per cent of the original stock since it was introduced in 1980. The numbers have declined. In 1997-98, there were 2,716 completed sales—I am picking out dates for the key peaks and troughs. In 2003-04, there were 6,811 sales. In 2007-08, there were 819 sales. In 2008-09, there were 157 sales. The number has fluctuated over time but, over the last two years for which I have figures, it has apparently gone down. The position of the Welsh Assembly Government is that they wish to use the powers temporarily to suspend the right to buy in areas where there is housing pressure.

My noble friend made the point that, if devolution means anything, it goes further than just an Assembly. One of the assurances that we sought was that, with regard to Gypsy and Traveller sites, a specific site would not be imposed on a particular community. We are grateful for that assurance.

A number of noble Lords made the more general point that, if you are going to devolve, there is no point in second-guessing the policy that will be used. We are here to exercise our statutory function under the Government of Wales Act to assess the devolution of powers under this order. It must then be a matter for the Members who are properly democratically elected to the Welsh National Assembly to determine how they will use their powers. That is the proper way in which devolution moves forward. The noble Lord, Lord Jones, said that we should be very clear in understanding what we are doing in this. He mentioned the word “federalism”. That might get my noble friends Lord German and Lord Roberts of Llandudno and me excited, but I shall resist the temptation at the moment. There may be opportunities in the future to discuss that.

The noble Lord, Lord Rowlands, asked a number of important detailed questions. I have already indicated the figures with regard to the right to buy. I shall answer some of his other points as best I can. More than 70 areas have been devolved to the Assembly to date. I am informed that there have been 14 LCOs to date and that, in addition, framework powers have been devolved in other Bills. I do not have a figure for the number of subsequent exercises of that power by the Welsh National Assembly, but if I can get that information I shall write to the noble Lord and inform him. He also asked what was left to devolve. The answer is, of course, a great deal. Even just in the area of housing, this order does not cover housing finance or the private rented sector, on which the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, last week made a distinguished maiden speech, dealing with many issues. The order does not deal with specific issues such as park homes. These are matters that will be the substance and meat of the debate that takes place leading up to the forthcoming referendum, when the people of Wales will have a choice about how they take forward the possibilities of further devolution. As I said earlier in the Chamber, that is a matter for the people of Wales; ultimately, it is for them to decide.

The noble Lord, Lord Rowlands, asked why the Government did not take out the abolition. I hope that I have answered that already in response to the noble Baroness, Lady Gale. The most important thing to us was to get this order through and to allow the Welsh Assembly to determine how it wishes to exercise these powers. The noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, used the eloquent phrase “passport for legislation”. That is very much what we are doing today; we are being asked to agree a passport for legislation. He said that the correct thing was for us to consider whether it was appropriate for legislative competence to be transferred and devolved. In a nutshell, that is what we are being asked. It is certainly the belief of the coalition Government that the answer to that should be, “Yes, it is appropriate”. I commend the order to the Committee and hope that we all agree that it is appropriate.

Motion agreed.

Prisons

Tuesday 13th July 2010 Grand Committee

Question for Short Debate

17:22

Tabled By

[Lord Dubs]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what proposals they have regarding prisons.

[Lord Dubs]

My Lords, I put my name down for this debate on prisons soon after the general election, which was of course before Ken Clarke, the Justice Secretary, made a speech that in some ways has stolen my thunder. I remind noble Lords of what he said, quoting a little from his speech. He said that,

“we spend vast amounts of public money on a growing prison estate and ever more prisoners”.

He went to say:

“I am sure that prison is the necessary punishment for many serious offenders. But does ever more prison for ever more offenders always produce better results for the public? Can we carry this argument on ad infinitum? I doubt it … I believe in intelligent sentencing, seeking to give better value for money and the effective protection that people want”.

None of us could dissent from that. It depends how far the Government can go to take these policies further.

In preparing for the debate, I soon realised that one hour was far too short and that in any case we should not consider prisons in isolation but as part of a wider look at the criminal justice system. I am not advocating being soft on criminals; some must clearly be jailed. But I remind noble Lords that in 1992 to 1993, the prison population was 44,628. The most recent figures this month were 85,097. That is an enormous increase. When I was in the other place seven years before, the prison population showed signs of reaching 44,000 and we felt that the world was coming to an end—it was that serious. Our prisons are grotesquely overcrowded. The question is why Britain has the highest prison population in relation to population in western Europe. I do not believe that we are more criminal; the crime rate is going down and went down in the period of the last Government very significantly, but I do not believe that that is due to an increase in prison population. Other countries have shown drops in rate of crime but their prison population has not gone up.

Two years ago, I was part of a group that launched the Prison Policy Group with Members from all parties and both Houses. We were glad to have as a member the noble Lord, Lord Hurd, a former Conservative Home Secretary, who followed a very similar policy to that being proposed by Kenneth Clarke. Our report, Building More Prisons? Or is There a Better Way? states:

“The recommendations of the Carter report on the use of custody, that the Government should invest in another 10,500 prison places to give a total of 96,000 places by 2014, was taken without consideration of any alternative policies. The cost implications of this policy are substantial, £2.3 billion capital and commensurate revenue costs for the foreseeable future. No evidence is available to suggest that increasing the number of prison places to accommodate a population of 96,000 will make England and Wales a safer place”.

We subsequently hosted a number of meetings at which distinguished people from other countries came and explained how they managed to run a safe country with a much lower use of imprisonment than ours and support from the public for such a policy. These meetings were very informative and we kept asking ourselves how it was that Germany, France, Canada—countries not so different from our own—managed with lower crime imprisonment rates and did not increase their prison populations year by year.

It is estimated that 10 per cent or more of the prison population has a serious mental illness. Although prisoner health has improved over the years, most of them receive inadequate treatment. Prison is not the right place for mentally ill people. They should be treated outside prison, possibly in a custodial sense in mental illness facilities, but certainly it is not much good having them in prison—they get out and they reoffend.

Clearly, the incidence of drug taking in our prisons is very high, as is the incidence of drug taking among people sentenced to prison. However, the rehabilitation facilities for drug addicts are not very good in our prisons. They are often not very good when they get out either. Those people should not necessarily be in prison but in places where they can get proper rehabilitation for their condition. Some time ago, the noble Baroness, Lady Corston, produced a report on women in prison. Again, it is fairly clear that we do not need to have so many women in prison. Many of them are not dangerous or a threat to society and could be better dealt with by punishment in the community.

The number of young offenders is very disturbing. They learn some of the arts of criminality when they are detained. We need to look again at whether all these young offenders need to be detained at all or whether there are not alternative ways of dealing with them. A disturbing number of members of the Armed Forces get on the wrong side of the criminal law when they leave the forces. We need to look at the help and support that they receive when they leave the forces and enter civilian life. It is not an easy transition for them, particularly if they have served in Afghanistan. They need more support and counselling to help ease their path to civilian life.

We would save money if we could transfer foreign national prisoners to the countries from whence they came. I appreciate that these arrangements are covered by treaties, but I doubt that they are all covered by treaties. We need to look at that matter. Helping people in these groups may not lead directly to cost savings. However, there would be a saving in the longer term if we could reduce reoffending rates. I believe that dealing with these groups in the way I have suggested would result in reoffending rates going down.

Some time ago I was talking to a police officer in London who said that he had arrested a young man who had attacked an elderly woman and rendered her unconscious—something for which he would almost certainly go to Feltham. The police officer told me that he went to the young man’s home. His mother was spaced out on drugs and the flat was in a disgraceful condition with dog faeces all over the place. The police officer said to me, “If that young man goes to Feltham, when he comes out he will go back to the same environment and with no help he will revert to his criminal ways”. Surely we have to tackle this at source.

Therefore, I was delighted to read the report by the House of Commons Justice Committee, which came out last December, Cutting crime: the case for justice reinvestment. That is the theme of what I have to say now. It was an important report with sensible recommendations. I shall quote briefly from one of the findings in the summary:

“a large proportion of the resources necessary to tackle conditions known to contribute to criminality—such as social exclusion, low educational engagement and attainment, drug, alcohol and mental health problems, unemployment and lack of housing—are outside the criminal justice system. Additionally, in many cases the relevant services are provided at a local level, whether by local authorities or third sector, voluntary or community organisations. Similarly, much of the support available for the rehabilitation and resettlement of former offenders is in the gift of such local agencies. In contrast, the costs of custody are borne at a national level from a centralised budget. The overall system seems to treat prison as a ‘free commodity’—even if not acknowledged as such—while other interventions, for example by local authorities and health trusts with their obligations to deal with problem communities, families and individuals, are subject to budgetary constraints and may not be available as an option for the courts to deploy”.

I could not say it better than that. That surely has to be the way in which the Government should move forward if they are to give effect to what the Justice Secretary said.

The Select Committee report stated that the aim should be,

“committing to a significant reduction of the prison population by 2015—especially concentrating on women and those whose criminality is driven by mental illness and/or addictions to drugs or alcohol”,

I have one or two brief questions about the prison-building programme. What will happen to what is being talked about in Liverpool and London? Do the Government intend to continue with the previous Government’s prison-building programme? Is it true that the Government are considering selling off inner-city prisons near to where people live and are reverting to the ideas they opposed in opposition to build Titan prisons on available land away from towns and cities? Can the Minister deny that?

Finally, I shall say a brief word about public opinion. It is important, in changing our prison and criminal justice system, to make local people feel involved and to promote confidence in community sentences.

17:32

[Lord Ramsbotham]

My Lords, I congratulate and thank the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, on asking this timely Question between the Secretary of State for Justice's landmark speech of 30 June and the promised Green Paper containing the coalition Government's answer. I welcome the content and spirit of what Ken Clarke said about prisons being places of punishment, education, hard work and change, but how can we effect change in an overcrowded system with a woeful record of failing to protect the public by preventing re-offending, which I understand to be the aim of the criminal justice system of which prisons are a part?

As they look around the prison system, I am sure that the Secretary of State and his Ministers will quickly realise what a priceless asset they have in the many marvellous people who are all motivated to do what is asked of them to the best of their ability. This confirms that at the heart of the problem, and therefore of its solution, are people: prisoners and those who work with and for them. Change means enabling workers to do more with and for prisoners.

This is a song that I have been singing since my first prison inspection in 1995, when I identified some reasons for failure that remain unaltered to this day. I shall briefly outline some of them. First, we need one aim to unite the work of the prison and probation services in their responsibilities for administering sentences awarded by the courts. I suggest that this should be: “To help those committed by the courts to live useful and law-abiding lives”, in line with the 1983 Prison Service statement of purpose and the original “advise, assist and befriend” of the probation service; for prisons must be added the words “in prison and on release”, with the qualifications that prisoners must be treated with humanity and not be allowed to escape.

United by that “doing” purpose, both services should carry out three sequential tasks. First, they should assess what has prevented the individual from living a useful and law-abiding life thus far. Secondly, that should be turned into a programme designed to challenge the reasons, prioritised by severity of symptom and time available. Thirdly, transition and/or aftercare should be arranged; that is, prison to probation, and prison and probation to the community.

To enable helpers to perform more effectively, two organisational changes should at last be made, not least in the interests of saving money. First, prisons should be grouped into regional clusters, as recommended in the White Paper, Custody, Care and Justice, which Ken Clarke will remember from his time as Home Secretary. Regions, including their voluntary and private sector organisations, can then own responsibility for the rehabilitation of their own offenders.

Secondly, in line with the very successful appointment of a director of high security prisons in 1995, bringing a unique consistency to their performance, responsible and accountable directors should be appointed for every other type of prison and prisoner. At last, this will enable good practice somewhere to be turned into common practice everywhere. Finally, in terms of change, I hope that there will be a ruthless pruning of all unnecessary bureaucracy. What is needed to make a national offender management system work efficiently is a structure that enables and supports face-to-face working with offenders—nothing more, nothing less.

There is much more that I could add, but, on the basis of what I saw first hand over five and a half years, and have seen second hand for a further nine, without such structural change, I fear that the hope that Ken Clarke has engendered will be extinguished by a dysfunctional system that has failed the public for too long.

17:37

[The Lord Bishop of Chester]

I endorse everything that the two noble Lords who have spoken have said. I will not repeat the statistics given by the noble Lord, Lord Dubs. In his recent speech, the Secretary of State spoke of the situation as impossible and ridiculous from his perspective as Home Secretary in the early 1990s. It is good to know that the Government are wishing seriously to address the situation, which on their own admission they regard as impossible and ridiculous, in the growth of the prison population.

In his recent speech, the Secretary of State asked how this has come about, but he did not really offer an answer, apart from an assumption that foolish policies have progressively flowed into a sort of mission creep, as reflected in the ever-increasing prison population. No doubt many factors have been at work, but let me offer an underlying cause. Since 1979, we have had what might be called the progressive Americanisation of our society, a process which has brought many benefits. Individual freedom has been encouraged particularly, but not only, in the economic sphere. Things changed somewhat under new Labour, especially in relation to levels of public spending, but the underlying ideology of economic and personal freedom remained largely intact. There have been many benefits from this political philosophy, but the difficulty in basing a society too much upon economic and personal freedom is that it tends to produce exaggerated winners and losers. Over time, the losers easily accumulate into a growing underclass where low-level or medium-level crime is endemic and where criminal gangs can flourish. That outcome has for a long time been very evident in America where the prison population dwarfs our recently inflated levels. We are now beginning to see this in the UK with prisons—full of relatively minor offenders and repeat offenders—too easily becoming academies of crime. The figures for inmates with drug problems are another illustration.

The way forward must be to address the subculture of crime associated with the growing emergence of an underclass. In the longer debate on Thursday, two of my episcopal colleagues will say more on the subject of restorative justice and the role that it should play. However, let me make one broad point in this short debate. Many of those in the crime-ridden underclass have a very low sense of dignity and self-worth. Many come from broken homes and abusive childhoods. That comes home very strongly when you talk to people who are in prison, as I have frequently done. The solution—or part of it—must include a proper recognition of the innate dignity of every human being including, and in some sense especially, those whom society chooses to imprison. On my visits to prisons, I have often felt that the prisoners, for all that they were there to be punished, were not always treated with the dignity that they nevertheless deserved. The refusal to give them the vote is an illustration of that. In my time as a bishop, I have been in a young offenders’ institute where the staff regularly swore at the young people who were imprisoned there. That seemed to be something that the whole system just accepted as a normal feature of prison life, and the governor hardly seemed to be aware of it. I choose that as an example.

Recognising and upholding the dignity of every human being, even when they are being punished by society, is a real mark of civilisation. We are more generally lawless today in some respects; the danger is allowing those whom we imprison to become scapegoats for the rest of society. That cannot be part of the solution. Whatever we do, we have to uphold the dignity of those we choose to imprison.

17:40

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate]

My Lords, I suspect that I may be a lone voice in this place today, but it would not be a debate without listening to both sides. I was the president of the Police Superintendents' Association when the then Home Secretary, Michael Howard, said quite powerfully that “prison works”. He was, of course, right—but he was also wrong. He was right in the sense that if you incarcerate someone for committing a crime, that clearly prevents them from continuing to commit crime against the public during their period of incarceration. It might also work as a punishment and deter the prisoner from continuing to offend—because, presumably, he did not like the experience. It could also deter others outside from committing crime because they do not wish to suffer the same fate. He was also right proudly to boast that crime fell dramatically during his period of tenure at the Home Office. However, Michael Howard was wrong, as noble Lords have expressed well this afternoon, in the sense that experience tells us that large numbers of people who are imprisoned return to crime when they are released from prison.

Where we are failing is in the rehabilitation of prisoners while they are locked up. This requires resources and costs a lot of money. I have talked to many criminals in my 35 years of policing, probably more than many others in this House, and of one thing I am certain—they do not like going to prison. On the other hand, they are all volunteers. We are not in prison; they are in prison. It is the old choice they have: if they commit the crime then, of course, they do the time. But it is not a pleasant experience, as I am sure we all appreciate. Any imprisonment is an unpleasant experience. I think that we could make it more unpleasant by clamping down on the use of things like drugs in prisons and the use of mobile phones to plan and perhaps prepare to commit crime when prisoners come out—particularly for the professional criminal. Those things are tolerated to keep the lid on law and order within prisons.

The first duty of any state is to protect its citizens, both from without and within. That is why I was somewhat surprised and shocked when I heard the Lord Chancellor, the right honourable Kenneth Clarke, pronounce that he was not in favour of short prison sentences. I agree that a short sentence does not allow training and rehabilitation, but it sends a very powerful signal to a recidivist bully or anti-social lout that his—and it usually is a him—behaviour and response to the courts will not be tolerated. I have often heard it said that it is not the prison sentence that deters but the fear of being caught. Again, I do not accept that. In the area that I policed, in the north-east of England, crime was rampant in the early 1990s. We arrested, time after time, the same offenders, took them to court and they were released time after time on bail and continued to offend. Arresting them did not seem to have a great effect. If anything was proof that fear of being caught without a proper sentence was not a deterrent, that was it. The public got fed up with anti-social behaviour in the late 1990s, which was why the anti-social behaviour order was brought in. That results in imprisonment only if all the conditions of the order are continually broken.

The public are fed up to the back teeth with what they see as soft options for people who ruin the lives of victims. The nub of it is that generally such behaviour does not touch the lives of Members of this place, but it hits people on housing estates and people in deprived communities, who are trying to eke out an honest living for themselves and their families. We owe it to them to use prison in a sensible way, as a final deterrent for those who refuse to comply. We need to use prison and to change the rules for those who do not know any rules.

17:43

[Baroness Stern]

My Lords, I, too, am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, for arranging this debate. I declare an interest as an honorary research fellow at the International Centre for Prison Studies at King’s College, London. I, too, welcome the recent statement by the Secretary of State for Justice about a new start in penal policy. I noted the view that emerged from his speech about the value of looking at evidence, and evidence will be the subject of my brief remarks this afternoon.

In his recent speech, the Secretary of State for Justice noted the difference in prison population between what it is today and what it was when he was last in that position. He may also have noted that when he was last responsible for prisons, there was in his department a high-level research unit, the Home Office Research Unit, which was the envy of the world and whose products were read all around the world. I very much hope that the Government will restart putting such high-level and objective work into the public domain. Research and evidence are a good basis for a new policy. I want to look at three areas where evidence might be helpful, although I entirely accept that, in the end, there are political considerations. However, evidence is a helpful start.

First, it is said by some that crime has gone down but that there are more prisoners, so the first must have been caused by the second. As the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, has said, it is hard to find the evidence to sustain that proposition or to square it, for example, with what happened in New York where, between 1993 and 2001, violent crime decreased by 64 per cent, while the prison population dropped by 25 per cent.

Secondly, we know from a mountain of research, particularly a study carried out by Edinburgh University over many years, studying hundreds of children and young people, that putting children and young teenagers into prison is one of the worst decisions we can make if we are aiming at a safer society. That should only be done in the most extreme circumstances.

Thirdly, I suggest that the Minister asks the researchers at the Ministry of Justice to produce a paper showing what makes people turn away from crime and change their whole way of life. I think that such research would show that it is relationships with people who are not involved in crime, it is having bonds linking them to law-abiding society, and it is helping them to change their image of themselves. A policy based a little more on evidence than on what we have seen in the past 10 years would undoubtedly produce better results and a safer society. Does the Minister have any view on the report in the press this morning that Tim Godwin, the new deputy commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, has called for money to be taken from prisons and to be given to community-based schemes for offenders?

17:49

[Lord Parekh]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, for securing and introducing this debate. Like other noble Lords, I greatly welcomed the Justice Secretary’s initiative on prison reform, particularly his speech on 30 June at the Centre for Crime and Justice Studies. As we all know, and as the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, emphasised, the prison population in England and Wales has reached a record level of 85,000. It has almost doubled during the past two decades, and we must be one of the only countries where this has happened. Our prisons are overcrowded; we have the second-highest incarceration rate in western Europe. If I may draw the Committee’s attention to the ethnic minorities, it is striking that they constitute just over a quarter of the prison population while being no more than 9 per cent of the population at large and that nearly 56 per cent of ethnic minority prisoners are black Britons. In fact, more black Britons are in prisons than in universities.

Prison is obviously not the answer, as all the research that I have consulted, with which noble Lords will be familiar, has shown. We have one of the highest crime rates in western Europe although we lock up so many, so obviously there is no correlation between the two. Public fears about safety have not subsided in spite of our locking people up in those large numbers. As the last election showed, it was the third concern after the economy and immigration. The reoffending rate is as high as 50 per cent; in fact, it goes up to 60 per cent when we look at those given short-term sentences.

Prisons are also extremely costly—something like £39,600 per year. As the Justice Secretary pointed out, it costs more to maintain a prisoner than a boy at Eton. Those who do not reoffend suffer from mental ill-health and remain social misfits who cannot hold a job after they come out. So far as ethnic minority prisoners are concerned, they experience a greater amount of racism and victimisation in prison than outside. They come out very bitter and angry and fuel the ranks of those who wish this society ill.

Basically, the prison system does not work. It crashes and keeps recycling the vulnerable, the mentally ill and the failures of our society. This has to stop. There should be more emphasis on rehabilitation and reintegration into the community than has been the case so far. We should also involve charities and the third sector and fund them from the saving that we would make by making sure that people are not locked up. In fact, as the Justice Secretary said, it might be a good idea to think in terms of paying them by results so that for every prisoner who does not reoffend the third sector receives a certain amount of money.

I have always thought that large prisons are a bad idea because they militate against rehabilitation and integration. Small prisons that are close to the community, like we used to have in older days, make it easier to establish familial contacts and facilitate integration. In this context, it is striking that Canada had a wonderful experiment in the 1990s when it reduced the prison population by 11 per cent. In within seven to eight years, the crime rate fell by 23 per cent in cases of robbery and assault and by 43 per cent in cases of murder.

I shall end by asking the Minister three very simple questions. First, has any analysis been made of how the cuts in public services and welfare provisions are likely to impact on the rate of crime? Secondly, what is being done—indeed, do the Government have any plans at all—to reduce the ethnic minority population in our prisons and to conduct a study of what prison has done to them when they come out? Finally, and this was part of the Lib Dem manifesto and is something which I subscribe to, is it the Government’s policy that there will always be a presumption against short jail sentences?

17:55

[Lord Dholakia]

My Lords, I declare my interest as president of the National Association for the Care and Resettlement of Offenders. I welcome this debate, particularly the contribution by the noble Lord, Lord Dubs. It qualifies him to join the coalition. At a time of swingeing cost reductions when every item of public expenditure is to be scrutinised carefully for cost-effectiveness, we must question the benefits of the prison expansion strategy, particularly as the annual cost of keeping someone in prison is now £45,000. This means asking some fundamental questions. Why do we need to build so many prisons? What is the purpose of prison and who should go there? When offenders are jailed, what should be done to rehabilitate them?

The prison system is seriously overcrowded. Seventy-eight out of 137 jails are holding more prisoners than they were built for, and 20,400 prisoners—a quarter of the prison population—are held in overcrowded cells. The results of all this are inhumane conditions and the risk of self-harm and suicide. It makes it harder to provide rehabilitation programmes, thereby increasing reoffending on release. Prisoners are moved part-way through education or rehabilitation courses, and many are held in prisons far away from their home areas, making it hard for relatives to visit and increasing the risk of family break-up.

So is it vital to end prison overcrowding? Is a strategy of prison expansion the right way to do this? If past experience is any guide, the strategy seems doomed to failure. The present process is like trying to run down an escalator which is moving ever more rapidly upwards, and the prison expansion strategy has absorbed ever-increasing resources which could otherwise be spent on prisoner resettlement, alternatives to custody, crime prevention and victim support, precisely what the coalition is asking for.

Most of the offenders jailed in this country receive short sentences. I shall give the noble Lord, Lord Mackenzie, an example. They spend no more than six months in custody. These short sentences are absolutely pointless because they make no point whatever. They are far too short for sustained rehabilitation programmes but are long enough for offenders to lose their homes and jobs, which makes them more likely to reoffend. Two-thirds of short-term prisoners are reconvicted within two years of release. We need a strategy to reduce the prison population to levels more comparable to our European neighbours. When we examine legislation, prisons should be removed as an option for low-level, non-violent crimes. Courts should be prohibited from using prison, except for dangerous offenders, unless they have first tried an intensive community supervision programme. Health authorities should be compelled to devote adequate resources to diverting mentally disordered offenders away from prisons. The number of people jailed for breach of licences should be reduced by a wider use of other penalties for breach before resorting to custody. Strong measures should be taken to tackle the disproportionate use of imprisonment for offenders from racial minorities.

The most commonly advanced purposes of sentencing are punishment, containment, deterrence and rehabilitation. Society has the right to punish offenders in order to protect the weak from victimisation, but punishment does not have to mean imprisonment. Many community supervision programmes are intensive and rigorous, make real demands on offenders and significantly restrict their liberty. Deterrence is, quite frankly, overrated. Those offenders who plan their offences plan not to get caught. They believe that they can avoid detection. Many other offenders commit their offences thoughtlessly or impulsively and, for them, rational considerations of deterrence hardly come into it.

Research has shown that the highest reoffending rates result from punitive approaches, such as the boot camps in America. The lowest reconviction rates result from regimes which work to change offenders' attitudes and behaviour. We should be aiming to provide practical help for prisoners: accommodation and drug rehabilitation programmes interact with each other because it is easier to hold down a job or sustain a drug rehabilitation attempt. We should regard the size of our prison population as a national disgrace. Instead of a prison expansion strategy, we need a strategy centred on reducing the unnecessary use of prison.

18:17

[Lord Lucas]

My Lords, I declare an interest as I have a close association with a charity called Safe Ground, which works in prisons and addresses the third point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Stern. May I say how much I agree with her about how effective it is and how difficult it has been to get funding and attention from a Prison Service obsessed with targets and tick-boxes? I hope that that will not be a characteristic of the Prison Service of the future. I greeted Ken Clarke’s announcement with total delight. I have waited 15 years, which is most of my time in this House, for a Home Secretary about whom I can say that—and at last I have one. If we can get the people out of prison who should not be there—principally, to my mind, those with drug and mental health problems—and treat them properly elsewhere, we would make the space in prisons for prison to work properly and do what it should be doing to rehabilitate the people who are in there.

There is no time to put what I am going to say in context, I shall just fire off words of advice at the Minister and hope that he takes them. First, he should not abolish NOMS but allow it to evolve. When you make big reconstructions in places such as the NHS and schools it takes a couple of years for the system to stabilise, for everyone to know what they are doing and for it to become easy to work with again. Prisons just do not have that resilience. There are no populations of qualified professionals such as doctors and head teachers around to bring a system back to normal quickly. It has taken five plus years for NOMS to settle down. It has at last got some degree of stability. Parts of it work very well but there are elements of extreme waste and misallocation, which I am sure this Government will take a knife to. But, for goodness’ sake, allow the structure to evolve rather than shake everything up again, which will make it impossible for other people to work with it. We must also look carefully at this election mantra of payment by results. The only people who can stand that are big commercial organisations. How can little charities, focusing on one part of the problem, ever live under that sort of structure? You will lose an awful lot of good work if you make that the centre of what you are doing.

Secondly, take a lesson from schools and make governors and management teams stay a decent length of time. What would you think of a school which changed its headmaster every 18 months or two years? You would never send a child there, and quite right too. It takes time for a governor to get to grips with a prison. They need to be there five or seven years to make prison somewhere where the governor is the governing influence rather than the bureaucrat in the middle of tick-boxes and targets. You have to learn more from schools than that. You have to support and find ways to involve governors stuck in prisons in outside things, but for goodness’ sake leave them in charge of prisons. The Prison Service could take a lesson from Teach First. Having really high-quality people in a profession makes an enormous difference. You cannot easily take people straight out of university or school into the Prison Service; they need to spend a bit of time in the world first. There has always been a connection with the services and a good flow of people between the services and the Prison Service. There is no reason why that cannot be made into something much more formal whereby we take the best people coming out of the Army, train them up and support them and get a really high-quality cadre into the Prison Service, making it something which people look up to, as they should.

Ministers have set out on a 25-year journey. This is real long-term stuff. The Secretary of State for Justice should be there for the full five years of the Government. The Prisons Minister should be there for the full five years of the Government. If you have rotating Ministers all the time, it is terribly difficult to keep long-term objectives in mind. Your job as Ministers is to take the flak and to stand up there while the Daily Mail throws stuff at you. Things go wrong in prisons. You must have the courage of knowing that you are not risking your next promotion by getting some little thing wrong and running for cover, as Ministers have done so often in the past 15 years. We want to see courage and commitment right at the top.

18:03

[Lord Bach]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Dubs. This has been a useful debate but he was right to say that it is much too short. However, it is important to discuss issues when we get the chance, even though there are honestly held different points of view, as there are on this issue.

The right honourable gentleman the Lord Chancellor said that his priorities are,

“to protect the public, punish offenders and provide access to justice”.

Given that speech, it seems to me that those who believe that prison should rarely be used as a form of punishment have become a little prematurely overexcited. To be fair to the Lord Chancellor, he is starting a discussion which has a long way to run, and even longer to go before legislation on sentencing and other measures is discussed in Parliament. Debate is a good thing, of course, but it is important—particularly for those who believe that he is going to satisfy their every wish—to read his whole speech and not just the parts of it that you want to read.

For our part, we think it is important to imprison serious offenders, but we also think that it is important to seek to rehabilitate them, whether inside or outside prison. We believe thoroughly in community sentences but they must be sentences that really mean something and, when breached, eventually invite custody. As the chairman of the Magistrates’ Association said in response to the Lord Chancellor’s speech, and indeed as the Prime Minister’s mother said—if she was rightly quoted by her son—from her experience as a magistrate of long standing, many shorter sentences are imposed on those who constantly breach the chances that they have been given. I am afraid that we cannot escape from that, however much we would like to do so. Indeed, one reason why the number of domestic violence offences has gone down is that domestic violence offenders now sometimes receive short sentences of imprisonment. No one thinks that there is no problem with short sentences—of course there is—but it is perhaps not quite as simple as some have made out, even in this debate.

When in government, we spent a huge amount of money on increasing learning in prison, on prisoner work and on dealing with drugs in prison, with an additional allocation to NHS primary care trusts for the total targeted implementation of the integrated drug treatment system. What will happen now if the PCTs are abolished? Outside prison, large amounts were successfully spent on dealing with youth offending so that, now that fewer young offenders enter the criminal justice system, there is a fall in reoffending and a smaller number of young offenders in custody than there were a few years ago. There is also the Corston report and the money that has been spent in implementing that. However, the spend on probation increased hugely by, in real terms, nearly 70 per cent between 1996-97 and 2007-08. It is sad to think that the budget, which we set of £870 million for the year 2010-11, has already been reduced by £20 million by the new Government. Goodness knows what is to come.

Therefore, although we make no apologies for our policy towards an increase in custody for those who deserve it, we point out the obvious: that non-custodial disposals are expensive, too, if they are to work. The Lord Chancellor was honest when he said that,

“I … cannot promise that we will be investing vast amounts of public money into non-custodial sentences across the country”.

My point is that prison is expensive—of course it is—but so are alternatives that also work.

I end by asking the Minister a couple of questions which I hope he will answer. First, does he agree that, as the figures make clear, there has been a substantial decrease in the level of crime over the past 15 years? My second question, which is linked, is: if the answer to my first question is yes, does he seriously believe that the decrease in the level of crime has nothing whatever to do with the fact that more people are in prison for longer? If that is the Government’s view, then many ordinary people who have been, but are no longer, the victims of crime will be horrified.

18:09

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)]

My Lords, I have already said in the margins of this debate that we really need at least five hours to cover the issues. I shall start with the point just made by the noble Lord, Lord Bach. There have been decreases in crime. I shall leave it to the criminologists to decide the reasons for that. I am sure that one of the factors, not only in this country, but in most advanced countries, is that we have gone through a period of considerable increases in prosperity, and there is a correlation between periods of prosperity and levels of crime, but I would rather leave that to the academics. The point was made earlier that when criminals are in prison, they are not free to commit crimes. I once attended a lecture by a former prison adviser to Ronald Reagan who estimated that the right prison population for Britain to guarantee that all the crime-committing criminals were off the streets was about 180,000.

What has caused the Lord Chancellor to raise this issue is that there is concern that prison has produced a whirligig of people going in and coming out which needs serious debate. That is why I welcome this debate and the others that will follow it—indeed, there is another on Thursday. The Lord Chancellor deliberately provoked the kind of discussion that we hope will bring forth ideas about our approach to these matters so that we can see if we can find something better. I am not here to say that the previous Administration did nothing right in their 13 years. Indeed, they did a lot of good things. We would be wrong if we did not face up to the fact that prisons produce more criminals and therefore there is a reasonable desire to look at rehabilitation and alternatives to prison.

It is impossible for me to cover all the issues. There are two points about ex-servicemen, and both have been made. There are a worrying number of ex-servicemen in prison, and there is a need to look at this issue. I understand that prison in-reach promotes the wide range of help and support available to veterans, but we should do more. I take the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas. I have thought for a long time that we should do far more to recruit ex-servicemen into the probation service and the Prison Service because many of the skills taught in the modern military are readily transferable. When I have read of some dreadful case of a young social worker going to deal with a problem family and being unable to gain access to a vulnerable child or whatever, I have thought that perhaps an ex-serviceman with a little more life experience might have got that access. That is a resource we should look at.

It is equally so with mental health. There are far too many people in our prisons with mental health problems. We are committed to improve offenders’ access to services that deal with the priority areas of mental health and learning disabilities. It was pointed out to me the other day that, even apart from mental health, the scale of illiteracy in prisons suggests that there is a linkage that may relate to the points that were made about a lack of self-appreciation. If you are illiterate, you tend to have a poor opinion of yourself in a society that depends so much on communications.

Young offenders have also been mentioned, and the how, why and what of the remarkably good figures on the drop in youth offending. However, we must follow the line of keeping young people out of the prison system if at all possible and look for alternatives. That is true, too, of women offenders. The Government are committed to looking at how to divert women away from crime and tackle women’s offending effectively. We broadly accept the recommendations of the Corston report in this area.

I am not sure whether I can cover the other points that were made in this response. I noted the idea from the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, of regional clusters and directors with specific skills for prisons alongside a pruning of bureaucracy. On new prison build and the shape of our prison estate, we will have to look at what the sentencing review and what some of the initiatives launched by the Lord Chancellor’s great debate produce before we make a decision on that. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chester rightly warned us about the academies of crime. I welcome the intervention of the noble Lord, Lord Mackenzie, because it is very important that we remember the victims as well as the criminals. Ken Clarke keeps on telling all his Back-Benchers that he did not say that short sentences can never be used or should be abandoned. I urge all noble Lords to read the whole speech; it is well worth it.

I shall stop trying to respond to the specific points, because I have run out of time. We are looking at ways in which to divert funds from custody to community work. However, as has been recognised, there will always be a need for prison, either because of the seriousness of the crime or the continuing risks posed to the community. Public protection remains paramount but, to echo my right honourable friend the Lord Chancellor in his recent speech on criminal reform, prison is not just a numbers game. It is not about how many offenders we can lock up or simply reducing the prison population for the sake of it. The challenge that we face is far greater than simply getting the numbers right; prison must be a place of punishment but must also rehabilitate offenders if we are to stop them committing crimes again and again. About half of all crime is committed by people who have been through the criminal justice system before, which is hardly surprising given the limited available time—a point that the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, made—to work on offenders during short sentences.

What use is a short period in prison if a prisoner will simply return, not having changed his ways in the slightest? We must do more to tackle the root cause of reoffending. In practice, that means prisons that are also places of education, hard work and an opportunity for change. For example, the Government are currently exploring how prisoners could spend more of their time in productive, meaningful work. It also means community sentences that are rigorously enforced and giving offenders the chance to find a job and accommodation and become drug free.

All this sits in the wider context of our commitment to conduct a full assessment of sentencing and rehabilitation to ensure that it is effective—effective in deterring crime, in protecting the public, in punishing offenders and in cutting reoffending. We need a new, intelligent approach that often recognises the circumstances of the individual case. As has been mentioned, the Government alone cannot, of course, do that. The private and voluntary sectors must be engaged, and our aim is to empower communities to take responsibility in this area. We are looking at alternative custody projects, which provide the courts with enhanced community sentencing options. I have been interested by one such which was initiated by the previous Government on intensive probation supervision. We will look at the outcome of that, but again it is very cost-intensive.

My attitude has never been one of reform for reform’s sake, or because of commitment to some woolly liberalism. The noble Lord, Lord Mackenzie, is right to remind us of the victims, but I am committed to this programme because common sense and practical politics dictate that we explore alternatives to that endless and expensive whirligig of crime, imprisonment, release and reoffending which marks out the failures of our present system. It is all too easy, as has been said, to be intimidated by the cheap populism and “bang ’em up” mentality of the popular media. Perhaps that is the advantage of having a Lord Chancellor at 70 and a Minister of State at 67; we have no long-term ambitions other than to make sure that this policy works. We will resist that temptation and, with the help of debates like this, explore alternatives to a prison system which neither successfully deters nor sufficiently rehabilitates.

Committee adjourned at 6.20 pm.

House of Lords

Tuesday 13th July 2010 Lords Chamber

Tuesday, 13 July 2010.

14:15

Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Chester.

Introduction: Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke

Tuesday 13th July 2010 Lords Chamber

14:23

The right honourable Helen Lawrie Liddell, having been created Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke, of Airdrie in Lanarkshire, was introduced and took the oath, supported by Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale and Baroness Ford, and signed an undertaking to abide by the Code of Conduct.

Introduction: Lord Black of Brentwood

Tuesday 13th July 2010 Lords Chamber

14:28

Guy Vaughan Black, Esquire, having been created Baron Black of Brentwood, of Brentwood in the County of Essex, was introduced and took the oath, supported by Lord Wakeham and Lord Marland, and signed an undertaking to abide by the Code of Conduct.

Introduction: Baroness Browning

Tuesday 13th July 2010 Lords Chamber

14:35

Angela Frances Browning, having been created Baroness Browning, of Whimple in the County of Devon, was introduced and took the oath, supported by Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord King of Bridgwater, and signed an undertaking to abide by the Code of Conduct.

BBC World Service

Tuesday 13th July 2010 Lords Chamber

Question

14:39

Asked By

[Lord Fowler]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have for the BBC World Service.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary has described as essential the role of the BBC World Service in helping to deliver an ambitious foreign policy agenda. We continue to respect its complete editorial independence, and it is of course respected worldwide for its balanced and well informed programmes. The BBC World Service is funded through the Foreign and Commonwealth Office through grant in aid. In line with the rest of Whitehall, we face budget pressures and are carefully scrutinising all expenditure. The BBC World Service is not exempt from that ongoing process.

[Lord Fowler]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that reply. Will he also remember some other words of the now Foreign Secretary last year:

“Britain will be safer if our values are strongly upheld and widely respected in the world”?

The World Service has an audience of 180 million people a week across the globe—a figure far higher than that of any other international broadcaster. Is not the World Service an unrivalled way of demonstrating the values of this country?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I heartily endorse everything that my noble friend, with his considerable experience, rightly says. The World Service is an immensely powerful network for soft power and for underpinning and promoting the values for which we all stand. Everything that he says is right.

[Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead]

Does the Minister agree that in these very unstable times there is a clear need for unbiased and independent news and information, which is uniquely provided by the BBC World Service? Does he also agree that a 25 per cent cut will inevitably lead to challenges that the World Service will find difficult to meet? That is what is being proposed and it is an unacceptable threat to the world’s most respected broadcaster.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I certainly agree with the first point that the noble Baroness makes. Indeed, one wants to see a well funded and effective BBC World Service, but she has to recall that under her Government a substantial cut was imposed as a result of the fall in the value of sterling, which must have hurt a lot. Under the cuts announced on 22 June by my right honourable friend the Chancellor, the BBC World Service has to make a modest further contribution and—I have to say, given the appalling financial situation that we have had to unscramble and are still unscrambling—there will be further spending-round cuts. That is unavoidable and we will all have to share them.

[The Lord Bishop of Chester]

My Lords, given the general recognition that peace in our world requires more religious understanding and peace between religions, does the noble Lord share my disappointment that over the past 10 years the religious programming output of the World Service has dropped to a third of what it was before?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

Yes, I share the right reverend Prelate’s disappointment. Although this is strictly a matter for the editorial decision of the BBC World Service and has nothing to do with government guidance, I share his view and hope that some changes may be possible. However, that is a personal view.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool]

My Lords, one of the lessons that we should learn from the Cold War is that benighted people living in beleaguered lands were often told the truth as a result of BBC World Service transmissions. Particularly in this day and age, against the hubbub of internet transmissions often made by extremist organisations with their partisan agendas, is it not more important than ever to do as the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, said and maintain our maximum support for the BBC World Service?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

It certainly is. The noble Lord, Lord Alton, is absolutely right and I emphasise that the overall budget still allocated is substantial, has risen substantially over the years, and amounts to more than 20 per cent—possibly almost 25 per cent—of the total budget of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. We are talking about very large sums of money backing the BBC World Service, not small sums.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

My Lords, the FCO is not ring-fenced like DfID and clearly always looks to the grant-in-aid bodies such as the British Council and the World Service when cuts come. Can the Minister confirm that the BBC Arabic TV service and the BBC Persian service are both at risk and explain how that coincides with the vision statement of the Foreign Secretary on 1 July this year, when he spoke of extending our “global reach and influence”?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

My Lords, the question of what services are adjusted, reviewed and so on is for the BBC World Service. The Arabic service is under review, not, I think, for funding reasons but because impact and competition have been the problem. The Farsi service continues to be well funded, as my right honourable friend the Prime Minister said the other day in the other place.

[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

My Lords, in view of the rather ominous last sentence in the Minster’s original Answer, I ask whether he is aware that the World Service has made cuts in the last two financial years of some £11 million. It is making strenuous efforts to use the new technologies and reduce costs. If the Foreign Office grant is cut, can we not look to DfID to make up any shortfall?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

My Lords, it is possible that some of the BBC World Service activities can be categorised as overseas aid and could be supported by DfID. I know that matter is being looked at. The other problem for the BBC World Service is that, as the shortwave transmission systems tend to become outdated, it has to seek transfer on to FM systems with local co-operation of local stations around the world. I am afraid that all that costs money. The cuts in the past as the result of the fall in sterling were bitter and tough. The cuts under the 22 June restraints announced by the Chancellor are modest. For the future, I can only say that I totally share your Lordships’ view that this is an immensely valuable service. We will do our best to safeguard it but we are not ring-fenced.

[Lord Ryder of Wensum]

My Lords—

[Baroness Chalker of Wallasey]

My Lords, while understanding the need to make necessary cuts, as a former Development Minister I recommend that my noble friend has a serious talk with the Department for International Development. It is engaged in much valuable education work. That is also what the BBC World Service does. That should be a shared responsibility, not one falling solely upon the Foreign Office.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

My Lords, my noble friend is absolutely right and I always listen closely to her recommendations. This is a correct recommendation: we are having such close talks. The possibilities for the future are there but it remains the fact that the World Service is independent, financed by grant in aid. It is an immensely valuable tool, as my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary said, in the promotion not only of this country’s interest but of peace and stability throughout the entire world.

Health: Diet

Tuesday 13th July 2010 Lords Chamber

Question

14:47

Asked by

[Lord Krebs]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have for improving the dietary health of the population.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe)]

My Lords, we believe it is for individuals to take responsibility for their health, including healthy eating. The Government can put in place ways to make this easier and support people. We are developing our proposals to achieve this.

[Lord Krebs]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply and declare an interest as a former chairman of the Food Standards Agency. The Minister will be aware that dietary ill health contributes to about 100,000 deaths per year in this country and that during the past 10 years the three major initiatives to improve dietary health have been instigated by the Food Standards Agency: improved labelling, restrictions on the marketing of food to children, and the reformulation of processed food. Why does the Minister think the dietary health of the population will be improved by moving responsibility from the Food Standards Agency to the Department of Health, which has so far shown no interest in this matter? I understand health officials have calculated that it will be more costly to consolidate this responsibility in the Department of Health rather than the Food Standards Agency.

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, first, I pay tribute to the noble Lord’s distinguished chairmanship of the Food Standards Agency. The Government recognise the important role that the agency plays, and a robust regulatory function will continue to be delivered through the FSA. As part of our wider drive to increase the accountability of public bodies, and reduce their number and cost, we are also looking at where some of the functions of the FSA sit best to ensure that they are delivered most efficiently. No decisions have yet been taken, but we are examining the matter carefully.

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that one major problem with diet is far too much liquid in the form of alcohol? Is he aware that in the other place, at afternoon tea between 4 pm and 6 pm, many groups hold an event to which many of us are invited, and frequently we are not even offered the option of tea but encouraged by the catering department to have alcohol at four o'clock in the afternoon? Does he not think that we could do something about that, closer to home?

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, I have no doubt that my noble friend is correct. I am sure that she will wish to place the correct representations in the right ear, and I will assist as best I can.

[Lord Cunningham of Felling]

My Lords, one of the principal reasons for the creation of the Food Standards Agency was to remove such decisions from political and ministerial control. This came about because of the loss of trust of the British people in guidance and statements from Ministers following things such as BSE and other terrible food infections across the country. In the light of that, is not what the Government are now considering a completely retrograde step?

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, as I said in answer to the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, we fully recognise the important role that the FSA plays. I identify myself fully with his remarks about the reasons why the FSA was created. I speak as a former junior Minister in the department that he led in such a distinguished way, and I realise fully the force of what he said.

[Lord Alderdice]

My Lords, given that the Government, directly and indirectly, are one of the largest employers in the country, and therefore the provider, directly or indirectly, of lunch and other meals, is there anything they can do to ensure that the meals provided and the diet available to employees, direct or indirect, of the Government are improved in line with what the noble Lord asked?

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, there is, and I am grateful to my noble friend. He will know that the healthier food mark initiative is one thing that the Government can do to enable the public sector to lead by example, in schools, hospitals and care homes. The healthier food mark has been developed over the past two years as a benchmark to raise the level of nutrition and sustainability of food served in the public sector. It sets clear guidelines on healthier and more sustainable food and recognises achievement, so I hope that it will lead the way.

[Baroness Coussins]

Will the Minister explain why the Government are scrapping the extension of free school meals when there is such a clear link between nutrition and academic performance? Would it not be better and more cost-effective in the long run to make sure that as many children as possible from low-income families get at least one nutritious meal a day?

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, the school fruit and vegetable scheme is continuing. However, future responsibility for running it will no longer lie with central government; it has been devolved to primary care trusts.

[Baroness Thornton]

They are being abolished. I declare an interest as a former unpaid trustee of the Fifteen training restaurants. Does the Minister think that it was wise of the Secretary of State to attack Jamie Oliver's school meals campaign, particularly given that he was incorrect in saying that the take-up of school meals had gone down when it had gone up? Will the Minister join the rest of the country in applauding Jamie Oliver's campaign to improve the quality and nutrition of school meals?

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, I do not know whether the noble Baroness saw my right honourable friend on television recently talking about this issue, but this is a good opportunity for me to put the record straight. He has not criticised Jamie Oliver’s work on school meals: on the contrary, he has applauded Mr Oliver and the many people who have worked very hard to improve the standard of school meals. The point that he made was that a very important initiative started by Jamie Oliver to make people more aware of what healthy eating is all about turned into a kind of prescriptive, top-down management process from Whitehall—and that is counterproductive.

[Lord Rea]

My Lords, how will the Government ensure that the principles of openness, independence and scientific accuracy in their pronouncements and advice, developed by the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, when he was the chair of the FSA, will be continued by whatever successor bodies are appointed to carry on the tasks of the FSA?

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, the noble Lord is assuming that the Food Standards Agency is going to disappear. I have seen those reports but do not recognise the stories at all. As I have told the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, and others, no decisions have been taken about the future of various functions within the Food Standards Agency, but we are clear that there has to be a role for a body setting standards objectively in the way that he has described.

Biometric Passports

Tuesday 13th July 2010 Lords Chamber

Question

14:55

Asked By

[Lord Dubs]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they have proposals to introduce biometric passports.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Neville-Jones)]

My Lords, British passports have contained biometric information in the form of facial recognition technology since 2006. There are no plans to introduce a second biometric, such as fingerprints, into passports.

[Lord Dubs]

First, given that many countries have said that they expect visitors to have full biometric data in their passports, will that not make it much more difficult for British people to travel in the future, especially to the United States? Secondly, will the Minister confirm that forged passports have been involved in almost every known case of terrorism? Surely biometric passports are much harder to forge than the ones that we have at the moment.

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

My Lords, the noble Lord has raised various points. There are no reasons at all to suppose that the absence of a second biometric in British passports will in any way hinder the ability of British citizens to travel to whichever country they wish to enter. The United States takes the fingerprints of people entering the country but does not insist on fingerprints in passports. The US does not itself have, or intend to put, fingerprints into its passports.

This Government entirely agree with the noble Lord that passport security is extremely important. Although the move to introduce a second biometric will not continue, one part of the programme that definitely will continue is the strengthening of security surrounding the existing facial biometric.

[Lord Marlesford]

My Lords, does the Minister recognise that effective passports are a crucial weapon in protecting this country from both terrorism and crime? Will the Government ensure that the e-Borders system, which was introduced by the previous Government but is taking far too long to put into effect, happens? At the moment, there are huge gaps in passport control. On 27 April at about 10 o’clock in the morning, I was leaving the UK from terminal 3 but no one made the slightest attempt to look at my passport. When I asked why, I was told that they did not have enough staff. That is not good enough.

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

My Lords, I think the whole House will agree that secure passports are an extremely important part of combating terrorism. It is certainly the case that there are no exit controls at the moment but it is intended that they should come into operation as part of the e-Borders programme.

[Lord Brett]

My Lords, first, the noble Baroness reminded us that exit controls were removed. Can she remind us which party was in government when they were removed? Secondly, she said that we are going to strengthen the security of passports. Can she tell us how?

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

The existing facial biometric is a chip inside the passport, and that type of passport has been issued since 2006. It is possible, and we intend, to strengthen the security technology that surrounds that chip to decrease the ability of any forger in any way to clone it or counter its security.

[Baroness Hamwee]

My Lords, the Minister rightly acknowledges the importance of passports to our security. However, does she agree that it is most important to ensure that the existing system is well bedded in and working well before attempting to go on to a second stage? That is one reason why I, for one, support the Government’s intention not to move on to a second stage of biometric passports.

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

The Government entirely agree with my noble friend that passport security is extremely important, and we intend to ensure that security. However, our view is that the interests of the country are not well served by the Government starting to maintain a database of all passport holders, which amounts to 80 per cent of the population.

[The Earl of Erroll]

I welcome the fact that biometrics will not be kept on the national identity register—this is essential—but we ought to have biometrics in passports which match ICAO standards to make it easier to travel. We should not be frightened of that as long as they are not held centrally.

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

We agree that it is extraordinarily important that passports should have adequate security, and we believe that British passports with the single facial recognition biometric will achieve those standards. There are actually a number of countries other than the United Kingdom that do not have plans to introduce a second biometric.

[Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe]

Can the Minister say whether, over the next three years, the e-Border workforce will increase, stay the same or decrease? If it is to be decreased, what level of performance will be affected?

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

My Lords, I am unable to answer that question—I came here to talk about biometric passports—but I will write to the noble Lord.

[Lord Dholakia]

My Lords, is the Minister satisfied with the security of the country particularly in relation to people with dual nationality when one passport is used for entry into the country and another for exit?

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

That is indeed an issue, but we do not believe that maintaining the fingerprint database of the country will help the problem. However, we do have to combat passport fraud.

[Lord Corbett of Castle Vale]

Will the Minister be kind enough to answer the question from my noble friend on the Front Bench and remind us which Government removed the exit controls at borders?

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

The exit controls were removed quite some time ago, well before 9/11.

Maldives

Tuesday 13th July 2010 Lords Chamber

Question

15:01

Asked By

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their assessment of recent developments in the Maldives, including the arrest of parliamentarians; and what action they propose to take.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, the Maldives Cabinet was reappointed on 7 July following its resignation on 29 June. This represents a step towards the restoration of political stability. We continue to monitor closely developments and press the Government and Opposition to co-operate on the key issues of national interest.

Two Members of Parliament have been released but the Deputy Speaker of the Maldives remains under house arrest. We have stressed to the Government the importance of all being treated in accordance with Maldivian law.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords, does the Minister share my disappointment that President Nasheed seems to be reverting to the bad habits of his predecessor, which he criticised at the time, of arresting MPs—which has been declared illegal by the Supreme Court—and pressurising the Maldivian media and the courts? Will the United Kingdom Government use all their contacts—governmental, party and personal, as the Foreign Secretary is a good friend of President Nasheed—to ensure that all democratic freedoms are restored as quickly as possible?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

We are pursuing full encouragement through our high commission in Colombo and other means to ensure that democratic development continues. We regard the restoration of the Cabinet as a step forward. We have a friendly, constructive and supportive interest in the sound stability of the Maldives and we will continue on that path.

[Lord Naseby]

Is my noble friend aware that the Maldives is no longer a protectorate of the United Kingdom? The country has gone from being a sultanate to a single party presidential system, to—with all our support—a democratic society. That being the situation, what role do we have at all to interfere in what is in fact the Maldivian exercise of democracy as they interpret it?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The word “interfere” is wrong. It is supportive because we and other democracies have a concern about the dangers of extremism taking hold in communities such as this throughout the world. This would lead to immensely damaging consequences for neighbours and ourselves, so we have a broad concern and the idea of friendship and support. In return, the Maldives has been a good supporter of our interests in the whole region. The Maldives has of course been very strong in its support for sensible and balanced concerns over climate change, including having a Cabinet meeting underwater, though I understand there are no plans for the British Government to do the same.

[Baroness Tonge]

My Lords, I appreciate the Minister’s concern for what is happening in the Maldives. However, can he turn his eye to what has happened in relation to Palestinian parliamentarians? The Government of Israel, having imprisoned 40 of them for four years, are now threatening to deport four of them for the crime of living in east Jerusalem.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

Of course that is a matter of concern, but it is miles outside the scope of this Question.

[Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead]

My Lords, will the Minister confirm that the Government are working directly with regional governments, especially the Sri Lanka Government, who have been involved to some extent? Will he also confirm that the European Union, as a major donor to the Maldives, is actively working to assist in efforts to find a resolution to this crisis? Is this not essential, when so much is at stake, not least, as the Minister said, the threat to foreign investment and the need to deal with the massive fiscal deficits which the Maldives has?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The noble Baroness is correct that the Sri Lankan Minister has been there and played an important part, as has the US ambassador. I am not sure about EU representation at the moment, but it obviously has an interest. We are working with all our partners in a proper concern to see that this republic prospers, without in any way interfering, as was suggested in an earlier question.

[Lord Bates]

Does my noble friend agree that representations to the Government of the Maldives would be a lot easier to make if the diplomatic representation was present there rather than in Sri Lanka?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

That is certainly true, but there have to be constraints on our resources. The high commission in Colombo is very active and a British official is now in the Maldives and about to attend a major climate conference in the coming week.

Arrangement of Business

Tuesday 13th July 2010 Lords Chamber

Announcement

15:07

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, after the Third Reading of the Academies Bill, my noble friend Lady Neville-Jones will repeat a Statement on the review of counterterrorism and security powers.

Academies Bill [HL]

Tuesday 13th July 2010 Lords Chamber

Third Reading

15:07

Clause 1 : Academy arrangements

Amendment 1

Moved by

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

1: Clause 1, page 2, line 9, at end insert—
( ) the parent governors of the school are elected by the parents of children at the school.”

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, in Committee and on Report, we had interesting discussions on the role of governors. Over the past 10 to 30 years, we have seen governing bodies take on major new responsibilities. The governors have given a great deal of time and I am sure that noble Lords will acknowledge that we should be grateful to them for their contribution and work.

Academy status will bring even more responsibilities to those governing bodies, and we on this side think it important that parent governors play a full role in their deliberation. In Committee and on Report, we debated the proportion of parent governors who ought to be on a governing body. However, in the course of the debate on Report, the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp of Guildford, asked for an assurance that however many parent governors there will be on a governing body, they should be elected by the parents of students at the school.

On Report, the Minister promised to look into this point and my amendment presents an opportunity for him to respond to it. I beg to move.

[Baroness Walmsley]

My Lords, my noble friend knows how very much we, too, believe in the importance of parent governors. The Minister was kind enough to send us the model funding agreement, but he will be aware that annexe A, which is the memorandum and articles of the academy trust, was not attached to it. The previous model, from the previous Administration, required at least one parent governor to be elected. Can the Minister confirm that that will be in the model when it is published? As the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, said, the Minister confirmed in response to a question from my noble friend Lady Sharp at col. 260 on 7 July that there will be elections for parent governors. I hope that he will be able to confirm that further today.

However, the Labour amendment is not helpful to new academies as it does not allow a parent to be appointed in the run-up to the opening of a new academy, as did the previous articles. That would be a very desirable time to have a parent governor, while the new school is taking shape, but the amendment would not allow for that. I do not know whether the noble Lord has taken that into account.

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, it will not surprise your Lordships to know that I fully support the amendment, and would be grateful for the additional reassurance asked for by the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley: that, at least in the old academies, as it were, there will be elections. Sadly, I remain unconvinced that we do not need to specify a number of parent governors to be represented on the board, which was the whole purpose of my previous amendments. I will not go into that again, because we are on Third Reading, but I would love to have more reassurance from the Minister.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford)]

My Lords, I am grateful for the points that have been raised and believe that I can provide that reassurance. First, I echo the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, about the importance of governors, which is accepted across all sides of the House. The point that lies behind the amendment has been raised in debate before, and I apologise if I have not made the situation sufficiently clear. The arrangements for the collection of parent governors are set out in the articles of association of the academy trust, which are agreed between the academy trust and the Secretary of State. Those articles are annexed to and form part of the funding agreement, which, as we know, is what controls the relationship between the Secretary of State and the academy, and always has done.

The model articles state that—I am sorry if this was not appended to the model funding agreement:

“the Parent Governor(s) shall be elected by parents of registered pupils at the Academy. A Parent Governor must be a parent of a pupil at the Academy at the time when he is elected”.

The articles therefore make clear, first, that the election of governors should be by parents of pupils attending the academy and, secondly, that parent governors must be drawn from among the parents of pupils at the academy. Those are the current arrangements for the election of parent governors in academies, and I believe that they are known to be effective.

The articles of association of an academy trust cannot be amended without the agreement of the Secretary of State, so the position as set out in the articles cannot be unilaterally changed by an academy. The previous Government argued and accepted that the funding agreement was the right place to deal with issues of that kind, and I agree with them. We do not need a requirement in the Bill of the sort set out in the amendment. That said, I take the point that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, just intended to clarify the situation. I hope that that has done so and provides reassurance to all noble Lords who have raised the point. With that, I urge the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for that; it very much reassures me and other noble Lords. The noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, raised the question of new schools, which do not have an existing governing body. It would be difficult to see how you could include the parents of children who have not yet enrolled in the school, but perhaps that takes us to consultation issues that would probably be better dealt with in a later debate. In not pressing the amendment, I should say that the overall view of many noble Lords is that the stronger the parental involvement in academy governing bodies, the better.

Amendment 1 withdrawn.

15:14

Clause 2 [Payments under Academy agreements]:

Amendment 2

Moved by

[Baroness Wilkins]

2: Clause 2, page 2, line 43, at end insert—
“( ) In Schedule 1 to the School Finance (England) Regulations 2008, after paragraph 8 insert—
“8A Where a child is a registered pupil at an Academy, expenditure in respect of services for making provision for pupils with low incidence special educational needs or disabilities.”
( ) Where a local authority fails to secure satisfactory provision for pupils with low incidence special educational needs or disabilities, the Secretary of State may make alternative arrangements.”

[Baroness Wilkins]

My Lords, this amendment is also tabled in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Howe of Idlicote. Both in Committee and on Report I have spoken about my concerns that a large increase in the number of academies will have the unintended consequence of dispersing funding for children with low incidence or complex special educational needs. As a result, vital support services for these children and their parents will become untenable, and there could be large numbers of deaf and blind children and others with multi-sensory impairments who do not get the support they need.

These concerns have received the support of all sides of the House and I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken. They are also shared by the National Sensory Impairment Partnership, the Special Educational Consortium and, particularly, the National Deaf Children’s Society, RNIB and Sense. I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Hill, and his officials for taking the time to meet with me yesterday afternoon, as he offered to do on Report, and it is therefore with regret that I must speak again to say that these concerns have still not been addressed. Sadly, while the Government are willing to recognise that the problem is real, they have shown no real urgency in coming up with a way forward. As the Special Educational Consortium points out in its briefing, the Government should recognise that there is a need to address the impact of the Academies Bill on individual children currently receiving specialist provision when a number of schools convert to academy status in September 2010.

I am alarmed that the Government should seek to pass this Bill knowing that potentially it could damage the educational prospects of some of the most vulnerable children in the country. The number of children may be small and the impact may not be immediate, but that is no excuse for failing to come up with a solution that will reassure parents and children that they will get the support they need. The National Sensory Impairment Partnership believes that the Government should set up a working group to consider solutions. The working group should be time-limited and have clear terms of reference to consider this issue and make urgent recommendations. The group must be led by Government and its recommendations must be communicated by the Government to all local authorities and schools across the country. I stress that the working group should also include representatives of the parents of children with sensory impairments, and I strongly urge the Government to accept the recommendation.

I hope that the Minister can give a positive reply before the Bill moves to the other place. But in the absence of that positive response, I have spoken to Members of the other place who have said that they will continue to raise this matter until we are certain that the educational prospects of disabled children will not be damaged by these proposals. I beg to move.

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, I, too, support this amendment, as I have done on previous occasions. It is sad indeed that the Minister has not yet been able fully to satisfy our concerns. Disabled children and those with SEN often need specialist support to ensure that they achieve positive learning outcomes. These services are crucial for pupils with a wide range of disabilities and have a unique role to play in the education of children with low incident disabilities such as blindness, partial sight and hearing impairments.

Specialist support services are not focused solely on the delivery of the curriculum. They also provide much-needed training and skills to support independent living, and examples of some of those specialist services give a clear view. I cite the teaching of Braille and of British sign language, independent living training to enable independent personal care skills and home skills, mobility instruction and pre-employment support. Local authorities have traditionally provided specialist support services to all schools, using funds retained from school budgets to ensure adequate provision throughout their areas. There are strong concerns that, as academies move out of local authority control, so will their revenue, reducing the amount available overall to specialist support services and relying on academies to commission the services they require. I hope that while the Bill is still with us, we will have further assurances from the Minister. Otherwise, as the noble Baroness, Lady Wilkins, said, the issue will come up again in the other place.

[Baroness Walmsley]

There are indeed many complex issues to be further explored and I am sure that this will be done in another place. This morning I briefed my honourable friend Dan Rogerson MP, who will be handling the Bill on behalf of these Benches in another place, beginning on Monday.

One of the complex issues, for example, is that the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Wilkins—the spirit of which we certainly support—does not explain how the money retained centrally can transfer to the academies. Is it the expectation that a local authority will make the provision in an academy? Can the Minister confirm whether a local authority will have physical access to an academy to ensure that provision for low incidence SEN pupils is satisfactory? After all, it is being asked to pay directly for that provision.

[Lord Knight of Weymouth]

In the conversation that the noble Baroness had with her group in the other place, was it discussed whether any amendments will be allowed by the Government? Given the tight timetable of Second Reading and Committee stage on the Floor of the other place in the same week, it looks as though the Government want to get this Bill on the statute book before the Recess; therefore there will be no amendment because there would not be time for it to come back here.

[Baroness Walmsley]

I understand the point that the noble Lord, Lord Knight, is making, but I did not discuss that matter with my honourable friend. After all, the procedure at the other end is not a matter for a Member of this House; it is entirely for the other end.

On statementing, the general duty on local authorities to ensure that appropriate children are statemented is not within the scope of the SEN obligations. It is a discretionary matter for academies as to whether they put forward children for statementing. Therefore, on one view, children in academies might be disadvantaged; on the other hand, the likelihood is that academies might overpresent children for assessment for statements—but this, of course, has its own problems.

That the noble Baroness, Lady Wilkins, has felt it necessary to table this amendment again highlights the fact that many noble Lords are still not satisfied that the mechanism is fair and transparent for calculating how much extra funding goes to the academies and how much will remain with the local authorities to enable them properly to carry out their duties in relation to the children in maintained schools.

In Committee, the noble Lord, Lord Hill, accepted that these arrangements must be seen to be fair and undertook to,

“reflect on the underlying principle of making sure that there is transparency and trust in these arrangements”.—[Official Report, 23/6/10; col. 1333.]

The ready reckoner on the department website has a lot to answer for and the funding mechanisms are clearly a work in progress. We have suggested that someone needs to take an independent view that these arrangements are fair to children in and out of academies. However, because of the rules on Third Reading, we were not allowed to table amendments containing further ideas on how this might be done.

We are not convinced that the YPLA is up to the job and remain concerned about this matter. As I said earlier, we have briefed our colleagues in another place, who will now have the opportunity to explore these issues further. The Government have time to get this right and we on these Benches hope that they will do so.

[Lord Willis of Knaresborough]

I was not in the House when the Bill was presented, but I wish to raise an issue on this important amendment moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Wilkins. Since 1979 and the Warnock report, Governments of all persuasions have committed themselves to the principle of inclusive education, of allowing children with mild and complex special needs to be taught with their able peers within mainstream schools. Will the Minister say whether the Bill recognises that the small number of SEN children who appear in mainstream schools, and who will appear in some of the academies, may be refused entry simply because the school does not have access to adequate facilities to make provision for those children? They have specific needs that require funding. I hope that my noble friend will respond appropriately when he replies to the amendment.

[Lord Low of Dalston]

The case has been well made by the noble Baronesses, Lady Wilkins and Lady Howe, and others. I spoke on the issue on Report so I shall not labour the point further. Indeed, it is hardly necessary as I think that the Minister acknowledged, in responding on Report, as the noble Baroness, Lady Wilkins, said, that there is a problem. There is a case to answer but the Minister has not answered it. I very much hope that he can do a little better when he responds. Otherwise, as other noble Lords have said, the discussion will have to continue in another place. I very much hope that that will not be necessary and that the Minister can respond in a way that will sufficiently reassure the House this afternoon.

It is not only that there is a problem; it is an increasing problem. The dissipation of local authority budgets will increase with the number of academies. There are few private providers who can take over the provision of the specialist services that we are talking about. The only way realistically to provide them is for local authorities, which have a sufficient critical mass to sustain services for these low incidence groups, to do so. If the budget is removed from local authorities so that they cannot provide specialist services, there is the problem of knowing where academies will buy them in for their pupils from low incidence groups. The problem is serious and is likely to grow. I hope that the Minister can give us further reassurance when he replies.

[The Earl of Listowel]

My Lords, I am concerned that there is continuing anxiety about the protection for children’s special educational needs in the Bill. I am grateful to the Minister for the meetings he has had with Peers interested in this area and I will listen to his response with great care.

Concern about the continuance of educational psychologists has been raised by the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, and the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, in previous stages of the Bill. In the past there has been a lot of concern that there were insufficient educational psychologists and that more was not done to ensure that their development was of the highest quality. I hope that the Minister can, either now or in writing later, provide some further reassurance that the changes in the Bill will not impact on the future supply of educational psychologists.

15:30

[Baroness Sharp of Guildford]

My Lords, this has been mentioned on a number of occasions and I want to intervene very briefly. In the letter that the Minister sent to the noble Baroness, Lady Wilkins, on 2 July 2010, he made quite clear the division of funding between what was going to be kept centrally and what was going to be distributed. Included in the funding to be kept centrally were educational psychology services; SEN administration, assessment and co-ordination, monitoring of SEN provision, and SEN transport. Included in funding to be distributed to the academies as a share of local authority funding was the funding retained from the schools’ budget for centrally provided SEN support services. This is the core of the issue we are discussing today. Services for deaf children, for blind children, and so forth, are part of these centrally provided support services. The problem is that if this share is taken away from the centre, there is not enough money left at the centre to provide these services adequately. The Minister has so far not been able to give us assurances that there will be adequate provision, and this is the core of the case that many of us are worried about. I look forward to hearing what the Minister says today.

[Lord Lucas]

My Lords, I agree that this is a problem which needs to be sorted out as we move to a world where there are many more academies and they play a greater role in the local provision of schooling. As my noble friend Lady Sharp says, there is this budget for SEN support services. I think private providers, in particular not-for-profits, will come into this area, given the chance. I do not see why the RNIB should not play a role in the provision of services for blind people. It would mean that good practice spread pretty rapidly round the country rather than being isolated in little pockets, so I can see a lot of advantages in moving away from pure local education authority provision. None the less, the mathematics of dealing with low incidence means that if you distribute the funding, all you can be certain of is that the funding is not where you want it when you need it, and we have to solve that problem.

[Baroness Campbell of Surbiton]

My Lords, I also support the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Wilkins. I am sorry I was unable to speak at Report. Unfortunately my health stopped me participating. However, this is an extremely important amendment. I met with two young disabled people with support needs last week who both told me that if the funding gets changed in the way they think is going to happen, then the academies cannot deal with their extremely heavy and expensive accessories so they will be compromised. We really have to think again on this one. I, too, am looking forward to hearing what the Minister has to say because thus far we do not feel secure in this Bill’s current form.

[Baroness Grey-Thompson]

My Lords, I also support the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Wilkins. As a child whose parents used the Warnock report to enable me to go into mainstream education, and had several discussions with the local education authority over a number of months to enable me to do that and not be shipped off to a special school, I have direct experience of budgets not being allocated. I went to school at a time when there was no statementing for disabled children. I had an education and went to school, but there was no access and there were no lifts. The local education authority employed six people to carry the wheelchair users up and down the stairs. So I had an education and went to a school but I was away from home and I felt quite isolated in the environment that I was in. My concern, if this is not properly addressed, is that children will, like me, receive an education but they will be isolated, away from their peer group, and they will not receive the rounded education that they all deserve.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, there seem to be two issues here: one is the question of how to deal effectively with low-incidence SEN and the necessary funding arrangements; and the second is the issue of whether the other place is going to have any time at all to deal with this matter, as some noble Lords hope it will.

On the question of the principle, throughout this Bill the Minister has described the tension between the risks on the one hand and the advantages on the other of each academy having much more discretion over its own budget. We well understand that. As they start off, the governing bodies are bound to be conservative in their budget-making, because that is what new bodies and entities do. The risk is that they will not make an upfront investment in these services. The risk is that by the time they find they need to invest, these services will have gone out of business. That is the essential concern—it is not the principle. I have no problem with what the noble Lord has written in his letter about where governing bodies may look for future services. One can see a potential train crash in this area and so far we have not had the necessary reassurance to know that a mechanism is in place to ensure that it will not happen. I again ask the Minister why the role of the local authority is being overlooked in this area. I do not see why we should shy away from giving local authorities responsibility.

Yesterday we had a four-hour debate on working practices in your Lordships' House. A week ago we had a seven-hour debate on reform of your Lordships' House. The consensus view of the dozens of noble Lords who spoke in those debates was that this House is the effective revising Chamber and this House is the place that effectively scrutinises legislation. Yet we are told that noble Lords who share that concern are prepared to leave it to the other place to deal with this matter. My understanding is that this Bill will be finished in the other place in two weeks’ time because a rushed programme will enable it to get through. There is virtually no possibility that the other place will be able to consider this matter in detail. That is why the matter should be decided in your Lordships' House.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

My Lords, I am grateful for the points that have been raised in this debate. We have, rightly, spent a lot of time on this Bill talking about various sensitive issues to do with our most vulnerable children. As I said in Committee and on Report, I accept the practical concerns raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Wilkins, and others. When we met yesterday, we went through some of those. I hope that some of the answers I can give this afternoon may take us a little further. However, I certainly recognise the concerns that she has raised.

The noble Baroness, Lady Wilkins, and others have been kind enough to accept that, with the parameters within which I am operating, I have sought in general to approach SEN issues throughout this Bill with an open mind and, so much as I have been able, taken concerns on board. I hope that, in some cases, I have gone further than perhaps noble Lords thought was likely to be the case when this process started.

On the specific point of low-incidence SEN, I can say to the noble Baroness that, as part of looking at funding for academies from 2011 onwards, we will work closely with local authorities. I accept the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, about the importance of local authorities and other parties in this area. I can confirm that we will look specifically at the funding of low-incidence SEN. This work will start during the autumn. I have today instructed officials to ensure that the Special Educational Consortium is kept abreast of developments and is able to make its views known. It is extremely important that it has that opportunity and we shall reflect on the points that it makes to us. We are committed to ensuring that children with sensory impairments in both the maintained and academies sectors receive the services that they require.

We have also established an advisory group to help us work through the issues particular to SEN and special schools in relation to the establishment of academies. We want to use the practical expertise in that sector and the group will include heads and governors from special schools and mainstream schools with specialist units, as well as local authority representation at officer and political level. As I said on Report, and as I underlined to the noble Baroness, Lady Wilkins, and to the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, yesterday when we met, I am very happy to put on the record our undertaking to monitor the impact of increasing numbers of academies on local authority sensory impairment services. We will continue to work with local authorities to ensure that adjustments to their funding in respect of academies properly reflect their continuing responsibilities. Our officials will also work with organisations such as the National Sensory Impairment Partnership on this.

Listening to the debate, I am very conscious that I am not expert on SEN, and I am not the Minister responsible. However, as part of the advisory groups and the work we will be taking forward, I would be very happy to enable a proper exchange with the relevant Minister in the department so that we can work through these issues, using the experience and expertise of noble Lords, to make sure we come up with practical solutions that meet the concerns that noble Lords have raised. So I am alive to the concerns. I hope that the noble Baroness will feel that that provides some slight further reassurance from yesterday. In the light of that I ask her kindly to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Wilkins]

My Lords, I am most grateful to all Members of the House who have spoken in support of this amendment and to the Minister for the reassurances that he has tried to give. Unfortunately, it does not meet the needs of those children who are going to be at school in September. Given the strength of feeling in the House, I would like to test the opinion of the House.

15:42

Division 1

Ayes: 193

---

Labour: 145
Crossbench: 36
Democratic Unionist Party: 2
Bishops: 1
Independent: 1

Noes: 171

---

Conservative: 122
Liberal Democrat: 30
Crossbench: 16
Ulster Unionist Party: 1

15:54

Clause 3: Application for Academy order

Amendment 3

Moved by

[Lord Whitty]

3: Clause 3, page 3, line 4, at end insert—
“(1A) Before making an application for an Academy order, the governing body shall consult relevant parties on whether to make such an application.
(1B) The Secretary of State shall issue guidance as to how governing bodies should conduct such a consultation with parents, pupils, teaching and non-teaching staff and their representatives, neighbouring schools and the local authority and such other parties as he may think appropriate; such guidance would also specify the information that should be made available to consultees in relation to the proposed arrangements for Academy status.”

[Lord Whitty]

My Lords, I think we have just seen the need for the Government to listen. Amendment 3 is about consultation on this whole process. It does not seek to reopen the whole issue of the strategy behind this Bill—noble Lords will know there are different opinions in this House. However, it does bring home the need for consultation. This group of amendments relates to the conversion of maintained schools into academies and the next group relates to consultation on additional schools, as the Government are now calling free schools.

We all recognise that the transformation of a maintained school into an academy is a momentous decision for the school—for the pupils, for the parents, for neighbouring schools and for the whole community. Yet originally we had a Bill that had no provision whatsoever for consultation with any of them. I acknowledge that the Minister has listened to some degree and that he came forward on Report with an amendment, which is now Clause 5, which deals with consultation.

I have to return to this as Clause 5 is deeply flawed. It is seriously flawed in three places and has a minor flaw in a fourth. First, the clause places all responsibility on the school governing body and none on the Secretary of State. Secondly, it makes no attempt to define those who must be subject to the consultation and refers simply to those whom “they think appropriate”, as subsection (1) states. Incidentally, the minor flaw is that there must be some slipping up in educational standards in either the Department for Education or the parliamentary counsel as in my young day “governing body” was actually singular and would not be referred to as “they”. No doubt that can be sorted out in another place.

The most important flaw, however, is that Clause 5(3) would allow consultation to be delayed until after the academy order has been granted. Subsection (3) says:

“The consultation may take place before or after an Academy order, or an application for an application for an Academy order, has been made in respect of the school”.

In other words, the governing body could have met and decided to have put in an application without consulting parents, staff or anybody else. The Secretary of State or his officials could have decided to make an order on the basis of that application without having consulted anybody. The terms of that order could have been negotiated, the financial arrangements could have been set up, third parties could have been lined up, all without consultation, and the order could have been issued without consultation. Only at the point just prior to implementation would consultation be required. That seems to me a common-sense reading of the option “or after” in subsection (3).

The Minister was quite helpful on Report. He explained that in practice the governing body would consult and the Government would encourage it to consult. They would issue guidance on consultation, and that guidance would be on the department’s website. I was very glad to hear that and I am sure my colleagues elsewhere were, but why we do not put it in the Bill? That would greatly reassure all the bodies concerned and set a process for every local conversion. Regrettably, I think we know why it is not in the Bill; my noble friends Lord Knight and Lord Hunt referred to the reason earlier. It may have been altered slightly by the last vote, but it is not in the Bill because the business managers are anxious to get this Bill through before the end of July, and any process that was built into statutory requirements would slow down the Government’s aim to get this through so that they could meet their deadline of bringing some academies into being in September.

I have to say to the Minister and his colleagues that it may sometimes be a bit boring and may be a problem for Ministers, but they have to slow down. Frequently, in 13 years of government, those on our side of the House found that they had to slow down and that often it was this House that required us to do that—usually at the behest of Liberal Democrats insisting that they would accept the principle as long as we engaged in widespread consultation. No doubt similar representations are being made these days rather more privately. However, if Ministers really want conversion to academies to happen, and to happen smoothly without too much local controversy, they would be wise to accept my amendments.

The amendments provide that governing bodies should engage in consultation before they apply for academy status; that the Secretary of State would issue guidance to them on whom to consult, how and with what information; and that before agreeing to an academy order, he would have to be satisfied that such consultation had indeed taken place. That is a reduction from what I was looking for on Report and puts a lot of power into the hands of the Secretary of State and the guidance that he would issue. However, separately, the amendments still require the Secretary of State to consult the local authority. That seems to be crucial, as we recognised in the previous debate. The local authority is crucial in these decisions, because the relationship between it and the school will change dramatically if the school converts to an academy. The local authority is responsible for ensuring educational provision in the whole community, not least on special needs, as we have just heard, and because the local authority has responsibility for sustaining educational provision beyond this generation of pupils and parents.

According to the speech the other day by the noble Lord’s colleague, the Secretary of State, to the Local Government Association, he wants local authorities to continue to play a strong and strategic role in the schools system. If that is the case, surely at the very least there should be a provision in the Bill that before a school converts to an academy, the Secretary of State should have consulted the local authority in question.

These amendments would require these issues to be put in the Bill, let the Secretary of State issue the appropriate guidance on the consultation, and let the Bill recognise the crucial role of the local authority. These would not derail the process unless it was being rushed. I advise the Minister to accept the amendments or indicate that in another place he will ensure something similar is put in place. I beg to move.

[Baroness Perry of Southwark]

My Lords, I am surprised and sad that the amendment has come back at Third Reading in this form. Like many other noble Lords, I have engaged in a lot of discussions with a lot of schools that have for some weeks been engaged in the process of moving to academy status. The normal procedure that they have described almost universally—with slight variations, although they have all consulted—is that the head of the school first talks the proposal through with the staff to get the feeling from inside the school. What head is going to go ahead with a change to the school’s status such as this without taking her or his staff with them? That scenario is unthinkable. Then there is a lot of discussion between the governing body and the head. After that, the governing body goes out to talk to parents.

Almost all these schools have had meetings with parents to explain what academy status would mean and why they want to move ahead. The church schools have consulted the diocesan board and the church; there have been long discussions and many of the diocesan boards have had extensive consultations with their schools and, in many cases, with each other. There is a huge amount of consultation and it is unthinkable—absolutely unthinkable—that any school, any head teacher, any group of staff or any governing body would want to press ahead in some sort of secretive way without making sure that they were taking the staff, the parents and the local community with them. That is the way schools operate.

Once again, there is an arrogance in this House that we are the only people with good intentions. Just 20 minutes ago we were talking about those excellent governors and our faith in them. Why can we not trust the people who run our schools and education services to behave in a sensible and honourable way? That is how they have always behaved. The schools that I have talked to—I am sure many noble Lords have had the same kinds of conversation—have behaved in that way. To be prescriptive, to write down as a rule that we are consulting only because it is the law, would be alien to the way in which good schools operate—and only good schools will come this way.

I am equally certain that, when we move past the stage of the first Ofsted excellent schools wanting to become academies and move to some schools that may be more questionable, the Secretary of State and the civil servants in the department will closely question them as to the nature of the consultation they have had as part of due diligence. The amendment is unnecessary, arrogant and plain rude to the people in the education service that we all support. I very much hope that the noble Lord will withdraw it.

[Baroness Walmsley]

My Lords, we on these Benches are second to no one in our enthusiasm for proposing the most widespread appropriate consultation on a matter such as this which is so important to every school. That is why we were so pleased that the Minister brought forward the amendment on Report to put into the Bill the consultation that had been lacking in the original Bill. However, the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan of Drefelin, and her predecessors, has convinced us on numerous occasions of the dangers of lists and of being prescriptive as to who you should talk to about this, that and the other.

[Baroness Morgan of Drefelin]

My Lords, does the noble Lady agree that we are still convincing those on the other side of the Chamber of the dangers of lists? The right honourable Secretary of State for Education is experiencing a very difficult time with lists at the moment. We stand firm on that position.

[Baroness Walmsley]

The noble Baroness is very quick on her feet this afternoon but that is not the sort of list we are talking about. The list in Amendment 3 is dangerous because it probably leaves somebody out. In an individual school’s case, there may well be somebody who is appropriate to consult but who is not in the list. There are times when you have to trust schools. You have to trust what was in the Government’s amendment on Report, which is now in the Bill, that appropriate consultation must take place. Matters such as this will have widespread publicity within a local area, and any organisation that believes it is an appropriate group within the terms of the previous amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Hill, but has not been consulted will certainly jump up and down and shout about the matter, making sure that the governors of the school know its view on whether the school should go ahead.

I remind the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, that a school does not become an academy until the point of conversion. Although I personally strongly encourage schools to consult at the earliest appropriate moment, as I have already encouraged them to do in this Chamber, it must be done according to what we have in the Bill now, before conversion. That is vital.

[Baroness Morgan of Drefelin]

My Lords, I have learnt so much about conversion in the process of this Bill. I have learnt about the noble Baroness’s conversion to the benefits of the academy model promoted by those on these Benches and now by the party opposite, too.

We come back to what the Minister has talked about through our deliberations: the need to get the balance right between central prescription and local innovation, and the need to trust schools. Nobody in their right mind would think it a good idea for anyone in central government to be rude to schools or to put themselves in a position where they have to apologise individually to them. That is something that all of us around the Chamber take seriously.

Listening to my noble friend Lord Whitty proposing his amendment, I thought that what he said was very reasonable. At the heart of what he is asserting is the need for good guidance for schools. We are talking about potentially large numbers of sometimes quite small schools having to go through a process, and about giving them the right kind of support and guidance. I looked at the guidance that is available on the Department for Education's website. Consultation does not feature very strongly in that; it does not even get its own little blue box in the summary of the conversion process.

On Report, the Minister said that the Government were,

“amending our advice to converting schools on the department's website to include guidance on good consultation practice. We will discuss with an applying school as part of the conversion process what arrangements it has made for consultation”.—[Official Report, 7/7/10; col. 309.]

I would be happy if the Minister would explain whether the advice on the website has been updated since Report. We are in a very fast-moving process and if the Government are committed to providing full and proper advice and guidance to schools on consultation, that needs to happen quickly. The advice that schools get from the website about the communication that they should have with the local authority suggests that they should simply ask it to prepare for them details for the transfer of land—deeds and such. That is the context in which a conversation with the local authority is suggested.

There are good, simple suggestions on the website about how schools might consult parents, such as sending a letter to them explaining the proposals and perhaps meeting them. However, I am concerned that the only communication with the local authority should be to ask the local authority,

“to gather land ownership and land registration documentation and information”.

Surely there is a lot more that the school would want to talk to its local authority about. Will the Minister update that guidance, and soon?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

My Lords, we return again to the issue of consultation—and we will have another go in a moment with the next group of amendments. We have had detailed debate on the subject both in Committee and on Report. These amendments cover much of the ground that we have already debated and on which I have brought forward amendments, so I hope that the House will forgive me if I am relatively brief in rehearsing familiar arguments.

As my noble friend Lady Perry argued, it is the Government's view that the individuals who lead schools—the governors and the head—are best placed to make decisions. They know the local area, the local circumstances of the school and how it relates to other schools in the area. We trust them to determine how to consult and we do not intend to provide an inflexible checklist, which would not make the consultation any more meaningful. The trusting of professionals to do their job is a key principle that the Government are keen to pursue on many fronts, and it underpins this Bill.

Amendment 3, as the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, set out, would also require the governing body to consult before applying for an academy order. We had this discussion last week on Report. It is not until the academy arrangement is finally entered into that the conversion process is legally agreed. That is why it is appropriate to leave it to governing bodies to decide when they should consult, so long as they do it before they enter into academy arrangements. However, I accept that they will frequently want to do it—as my noble friend Lady Walmsley said—early in the process rather than later.

The noble Baroness, Lady Morgan of Drefelin, rightly said that we are amending our advice on the website. I do not believe that it has yet been amended. I do not think that what she read out has been updated and we need to do that urgently. We will obviously discuss with an applying school the arrangements that it has made for consultation and we do not believe that we need to be more prescriptive than that.

Amendment 4 seeks to require the Secretary of State to consult the local authority over any academy proposals. Schools or proposers for free schools will, and have to, consult whomever they consider appropriate, and in many cases that will include the local authority. However, we do not believe that the Secretary of State needs to be involved in any consultations in addition to the school or the proposer, and we do not think it necessary to give local authorities a role which could—although perhaps only in some areas of the country—undermine the purpose of the Government’s policy; as we know, that has been the case in the past.

Given that we have had these debates and rehearsed these arguments, and are to return to them in the next group of amendments on consultation more generally, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

16:14

[Lord Whitty]

My Lords, I am disappointed by that. I have been reasonable: I have listened to what the Minister has said on previous occasions and have not specified a definitive list. Indeed, the amendment leaves the final definition of the list to the Secretary of State, so I trust the Secretary of State. It would be odd if any consultation excluded the parents, pupils and staff, and I think that the House, and indeed society as a whole, need some reassurance on that.

I, too, had a quick look at the website after the previous stage of the Bill. It gave very little guidance on consultation and virtually none on substantive consultation with the local authority. I am afraid that the relationship with the local authority seems to be the most disastrous aspect of this policy, because sometimes the Government explain their commitment to academies as taking as many schools as possible out of the so-called control of local authorities. However, even if we accept that objective, the relationship with local authorities will be crucial in the future, as they will have to take on board the consequences for other schools in the area of a single school or a significant number of schools becoming academies within the area of their jurisdiction.

I have moved quite considerably towards the Minister in not being prescriptive. I have no doubt that he thinks I could move further, but I also think that he could move further. At the very minimum, he should probably look at Clause 5(3) to see whether the phrase “or after” is unnecessary, as it raises a significant number of fears. If the whole process is gone through with consultation in the terms described by the noble Baroness, Lady Perry—and I am sure that that is true in relation to schools that are already enthusiastic for academy status—future cases will undoubtedly be more controversial with the governing body, the staff, the locality and the local authority. Therefore, enthusiasm for consultation may be somewhat diminished in future and the need to provide guidelines as to how the consultation should take place will be more important.

Even if we assume that in most cases the consultation can take place very early in the process, Clause 5(3) allows it to take place at the very end. That is not consultation; it is presenting an option with all the terms of the agreement and the financing tied up and with a commitment on the curriculum and the governance also tied up. It is then presented to the parents and the public effectively as a fait accompli. It is true that that consultation could still reveal a no response but there is no option for the public, the parents, the pupils, the other schools and the local authority to influence or negotiate a change in the provisions. Therefore, if the Minister is not even prepared to consider that the other place might delete “or after”—and I think that what he said today indicated that he was not—we had better have it on the record that the coalition is now against consultation at the local level.

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Baroness Walmsley]

I would love to hear what was said a few minutes ago. We are very much in favour of consultation on this side of the House.

[Lord Whitty]

My Lords, if you still allow consultation to take place as “or after” implies in subsection (3), you are not wholeheartedly committed to consultation. I respect everybody’s views, I respect the experience that the noble Baronesses, Lady Perry and Lady Walmsley, have referred to, but it still allows for a sham consultation to take place. I would like to close that door and therefore would like to test the opinion of the House.

16:20

Division 2

Ayes: 163

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Labour: 140
Crossbench: 16
Independent: 1

Noes: 210

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Conservative: 126
Liberal Democrat: 46
Crossbench: 27
Democratic Unionist Party: 2
Bishops: 1
Ulster Unionist Party: 1
UK Independence Party: 1

16:34

Clause 5: Consultation on conversion

Amendment 4 not moved.

Amendment 5

Tabled by

[Lord Whitty]

5: Clause 5, page 4, line 6, leave out subsection (3) and insert—
“(3) In the case of a new (or free) school being granted Academy status, the Secretary of State must—
(a) ensure that a consultation has taken place with appropriate parties;(b) consult the local authority.”

[Lord Whitty]

My Lords, in view of the Government’s attitude to my previous amendment and of the vote, I shall not move this amendment in favour of Amendment 8.

Amendment 5 not moved.

Amendment 6

Moved by

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

6: Before Clause 9, insert the following new Clause—
“Impact: additional schools
(1) This section applies when the Secretary of State is deciding whether to enter into Academy arrangements in relation to an additional school.
(2) The Secretary of State must take into account what the impact of establishing the additional school would be likely to be on maintained schools, Academies and institutions within the further education sector in the area in which the additional school is (or is proposed to be) situated.
(3) A school is an “additional school” for the purposes of this section if—
(a) it does not replace a maintained school that has been or is to be discontinued, and(b) it is not a school in respect of which an Academy order has effect.(4) For the purposes of subsection (3)(a) a school does not replace a maintained school if it provides education for pupils of a wider range of ages than the maintained school.”

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

My Lords, it gives me great pleasure to move Amendment 6 and speak to Amendment 7. These two amendments follow our discussion on Report and are designed to make clear the situation regarding new free schools, which are defined as additional schools in the amendments. My noble friend Lord Phillips tabled an amendment on Report designed to require the Secretary of State to take into account the likely impact of a new free school on neighbouring schools, and I accepted the principle of it then.

Amendment 6 will ensure that, when the Secretary of State is considering whether to approve proposals for additional academies, such as a new free school, he will be required to take into account the impact of those proposals on the other schools and colleges in the local area. As I have explained before, the Secretary of State has a duty to act reasonably in all matters, which includes considering all the relevant implications of the proposals. The amendment puts that requirement into the Bill, and will ensure that no free school proposal will be approved without due consideration of its wider implications.

When assessing the impact, the Secretary of State will consider a range of information and issues. These might include things such as performance data relating to local schools, admissions data, surplus places data and any sensible school reorganisation plans in the area. This will be done with a view to gauging whether introducing additional competition into the local area will be helpful or otherwise. Subsection (4) makes it clear that where the new school is not like for like—for example, it is the result of an amalgamation—it would also be counted as an additional school and thus caught by the requirement to evaluate the impact.

I have also tabled Amendment 7. If accepted, this will require any promoter of an academy which does not replace the maintained school—that is, a new free school—to consult those it sees fit on the issue of its proposal. As I have said, noble Lords raised concerns on Report that the requirement to consult on academy proposals, on which I brought forward an amendment at that stage, was aimed at converting schools and therefore did not capture proposals for free schools. The point was made not only by my noble friend Lord Phillips but also by the noble Baroness, Lady Royall. Even though I think that a free school proposal, which will need to demonstrate parental demand and support, will by definition involve and require consultation, I accept the point of principle and believe that I have addressed it with this amendment. It replicates exactly the requirement on a governing body under new Clause 5 in that the person who is to enter into the academy arrangements with the Secretary of State must both take a view on those with whom it is appropriate to consult and consult with them on the question of whether to enter into the arrangements.

Taken together, Amendments 6 and 7 reflect the concerns that have been raised on all sides. I believe that they provide further reassurance on consultation to those noble Lords who flagged these issues on Report. I beg to move.

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

My Lords, I am most grateful to my noble friend for listening to the arguments advanced at the previous stage, with which I was involved, and for bringing forward the new provisions that meet satisfactorily the matters concerned. There is just one point on which I would be obliged for his assurance. Some noble Lords will find that the wording of subsection (1) of the proposed new clause, although it mirrors the new consultation clause, still appears somewhat subjective, requiring the people promoting the new or additional school to,

“consult such persons as the person thinks appropriate”.

It would be helpful to have in Hansard an assurance from the Minister that, in considering the impact of a new or additional school on other schools under the new impact clause, the Secretary of State will have to take a view as to whether the consultation undertaken by the promoters of the new school is adequate and sufficient in order for him or her to come to a view on whether the impact is on the right side of the line.

As I say, I hope that the Minister will be able to assure the House that, if the Secretary of State considers that the consultation undertaken by the promoters is simply not adequate to establish whether the impact is on the right or wrong side of the line, he or she will be able to undertake further consultation as will lead to the facts that he or she must have in order to reach a proper conclusion on impact.

[Lord Knight of Weymouth]

I pay tribute to the Minister for ceding the principle around the impact of additional schools. He has listened to the House and we are grateful to him for that. Like the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, I pay particular attention to Amendment 7 and the phrase,

“a person must consult such persons as the person thinks appropriate”.

Given the excellence of the people drafting the clauses, I am sure that that is perfectly sound technically. However, it is wide in its effect. I would argue that in the case of additional schools, in particular, we have to include in that consultation the local authority and possibly the schools forum. I ask the Minister to commit to amending the Bill in the other place, particularly as he already may need to do so. If he does not like the amendment agreed earlier, that may open up the possibility that he will agree to an amendment on this.

My concern is around the funding of these additional schools and it may help your Lordships if I briefly explain how the existing funding works. The bulk of schools funding comes through the dedicated schools grant—except for academies, which are funded directly by the Secretary of State. The dedicated schools grant is then allocated by local authorities as agreed by the schools forum, which is made up of schools, pre-schools, further education colleges and other 14 to 19 providers. It is notable that the Minister does not include pre-schools in Amendment 6 and, given that under his policy academies can now include primary schools, which may be providers of pre-school education, there may be an issue about pre-schools not being consulted. However, I shall not dwell on that.

When academy arrangements are entered into, the necessary funding for the academy is taken away from the local authority’s dedicated schools grant and allocated direct to the academy. Additional schools need revenue funding, and that will come from that local authority allocation. That is why it is essential that the local authority is consulted—unless, of course, the Minister has a pot of money for revenue funding. I know that capital funding is allocated and, like other noble Lords, I have been on the web today trying to understand these issues. On the Department for Education’s website I found a press release from the Secretary of State dated 18 June in which he refers to capital funding by reallocating £50 million from the enhancing technology grant to create a standards and diversity fund. However, there is no mention of the revenue funding needed for these new schools.

The frequently-asked-questions section on free schools contains six lines outlining how much funding I will get to run my free school. That remains very vague. It states that,

“we will work with the early groups of Free Schools to develop a sustainable and fair funding model and publish further detail as it becomes available”.

Perhaps the Minister is ready to publish that further detail to help inform the debate today.

Determining the revenue of an additional school requires a prediction of pupil numbers. This then determines both how much the new school will get and how much the other schools will lose because we are working within a constrained pot—unless, of course, the Minister has his pot of gold. Can the Minister tell the House where the revenue will come from in the first few years as the additional schools are established? A modest-sized, virtually unviable, secondary school would have 400 pupils at £4,000 per head per year, which is probably lower than the current average per pupil funding. According to my calculator, that is £1.6 million of revenue funding per school in its first year of operation. We need to know where that money is going to come from.

Who agrees the predicted number of pupils for the additional school? That will have an impact on the surrounding schools because they will then know how many they are likely to lose. What form of appeal will there then be for those schools, the local authority and the schools forum, which advises on the detailed allocation to each school? What form of appeal will they have on the decision on the predicted number of pupils? Has the Minister taken legal advice on whether the current process that we are being asked to agree today is challengeable if there is no consultation with local authorities or schools forums?

16:45

[Lord Willis of Knaresborough]

I apologise to the noble Lord but I am trying to get the parlance correct. It would be helpful if he would explain the funding arrangement under the previous Government when a new academy came into a local authority area. How was the money clawed back to balance the places and resources?

[Lord Knight of Weymouth]

The noble Lord will know that academies have been used to replace failing schools, so there is a fundamental difference in the policy reflected in this Bill. We are being asked to agree arrangements for academies to convert from outstanding schools and, in this case, we are discussing additional schools. There are one or two additional schools for which my noble friend sitting next to me, or I as the Minister responsible, might have been able to find the additional money. That is why I keep asking the Minister whether he has some revenue funding that he has not told us about and whether he has agreement from the Treasury. In these straitened times that is unlikely, so it is most likely that it will come from other schools in the local authority area.

Is the Minister aware that following the unfortunate Building Schools for the Future announcement, there is a considerable appetite among local authorities to take legal action against his department when things are rushed out without working through the details? That is what is happening because of the unexplained desire to get the Bill on the statute book this month.

I know that I have asked the Minister a lot of questions, and he may want to write to me with some of the answers. Since I raised it in this Chamber last week, I would be most grateful if he could explain in his summing up how revenue funding will work for these additional schools, and why the Bill does not provide for consultation with local authorities and school forums.

[Baroness Walmsley]

My Lords, I, too, welcome Amendments 6 and 7, and I am glad that the noble Lord, Lord Hill, has responded to the persuasion and effective blandishments of my noble friend Lord Phillips of Sudbury on this matter.

I have a question on proposed new subsection (4) in Amendment 6, which states:

“For the purposes of subsection (3)(a) a school does not replace a maintained school if it provides education for pupils of a wider range of ages than the maintained school”.

Will the Minister explain that, because it is not covered by the letter which he wrote about the government amendments of 9 July 2010? I think it means that it excludes from consideration as an additional school an academy that decides to establish, for example, a sixth form that did not exist before. I would not want this part of the Minister’s amendment to work as a loophole that would allow schools covering substantially the same age range, but with a little tweak at one end or the other, to be established without the Secretary of State having the very serious job of considering the impact on other good schools in the area.

[Lord Bates]

Briefly, I support my noble friend and place on record a slight disagreement on the amendment from this perspective: I am rather pleased that the wording is retained—that an additional school should consult with such persons as appropriate. It is fair to say that there is potentially a different view. I believe that it is a philosophical point about how we do government. It is about whether we want to go back to the day, which has been tried before, when we have Bills that run to 250 pages. They are so prescriptive about what everyone has to do, and people respond to that simply by taking a tick-box approach to everything—“Have I spoken to them? Have I spoken to them?”. They never bother to contemplate and absorb the issues. There is an attempt by the new coalition Government to do things differently. They are saying, “We are prepared to trust people and introduce legislation which is not prescriptive but is simply enabling people. If your school has been judged outstanding by Ofsted, clearly you are doing a good job and we trust you to do the right thing in the right way. If you are a new school and you have support for that, you have greater authority and we want to trust you”. That message needs to come across so I urge the Minister not to concede any further ground on this amendment. I think that it is fair enough as it stands.

[Baroness Walmsley]

I do not want the noble Lord to get away with the idea that I do not support these amendments. I simply asked the Minister a question about subsection (4) of the proposed new clause.

[Lord Bates]

Let me correct that for the record in Hansard. There was no suggestion of that at all.

[Lord Adonis]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Hill, on his Amendments 6 and 7. He has gone as far as he reasonably should to meet the concerns about consultation in respect of new schools. He will obviously explain his response to the particular issues to do with funding raised by my noble friend Lord Knight. I do not regard the concerns raised on other issues to be matters of substance. The noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, was concerned that the definition of what constituted a replacement school in subsection (4) of the proposed new clause might mean that a school which just had a somewhat larger age range did not constitute a replacement school, but my reading of the amendment is that, if that were the case, it would then be a new school and so would still be subject to the consultation arrangements which are encompassed in the other amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Hill. Either way, whether it constitutes a replacement school or whether it constitutes, in the wording of Amendment 6, “an additional school”, it is captured by requirements for consultation that are equivalent.

Regarding the concern raised by the noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury, about the subjective nature of the consultation, I do not read the amendment as being entirely subjective. He is the lawyer and I am not, but my reading of subsection (2) of the proposed new clause is that because the Secretary of State must take into account the likely impact of establishing the additional school on maintained schools, academies and institutions within the further education sector, he will have to be satisfied that there has been a consultation in respect of them. It would not be possible for the Secretary of State to take into account the impact on those institutions unless they had been consulted. My reading of subsection (2) of the new clause proposed by the Government’s Amendment 6 is that it substantially limits the subjective scope, because the Secretary of State would need to be satisfied that they had been consulted in order to be able to evaluate the impact.

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving way; he may have finished. It was precisely to elicit a clear statement along those lines that I raised that query. Being a lawyer, I think the wording as it stands leaves things a little open, hence the clarity I seek, which I hope will be given.

[Lord Adonis]

I had almost finished. I just wish to make one concluding point. I support the policy of new school providers getting a fair opportunity to establish new schools where there is a need for additional schools in an area, either to meet the requirement for additional school places or—to be quite frank—to meet the requirement for high-quality places where they are not being provided by existing schools. If there is to be that opportunity, it is very important that we do not tie up school promoters in red tape that will either dissuade them from coming forward with proposals in the first place or hamper them unduly when it comes to conducting their consultations. Amendment 8 states that,

“the Secretary of State must satisfy himself that relevant interested parties have been consulted”.

As soon as you put phrases like that in legislation, you guarantee a succession of legal cases as people challenge what constitute “relevant interested parties”. That would not meet the purpose, which is the provision of new schools where they are needed or will raise the quality of education in an area, so I do not believe it is desirable.

[Baroness Morgan of Drefelin]

My Lords, it is my turn to pop up from behind the Dispatch Box. I was very interested to hear the noble Lord, Lord Bates, talk about the philosophical issues in Clause 4; I was equally interested to see the little exchanges going on across his Benches. Of course, we have very important business before us at this Third Reading.

My noble friend Lord Adonis and the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, put their finger on the issue that my amendment is about; that is, the Secretary of State being satisfied that appropriate consultation has been undertaken before an academy is established where there was no school previously. I think that we are all keen to hear what the Minister has to say, as my amendment is an amendment to his government amendment. I know that my noble friend Lady Royall will be pleased that he has listened to her remarks and taken on board concerns voiced around the Chamber about appropriate consultation on the establishment of free schools. There are real concerns and questions, for example, about how the admissions code might work in some very small schools, how schools set up by a group of parents might cater for other parents and how the broad and balanced curriculum might work in them. It is therefore important that questions around consultation are taken seriously. Like my noble friend, I believe it is important that, where there is a need for a new school, we make sure that parents have the opportunity to establish a school with the support of the education community around them and that if they consult appropriately they will not be accused at some later stage of having consulted only a few of their mates and people whom they know are fellow travellers and will simply agree with them.

In the interests of ensuring that taxpayers’ resources are invested in good new schools and that work is done to establish sustainable schools that fill a need, the consultation on the establishment of new free schools should be no less important to the Secretary of State than consultation on the conversion of a maintained school to an academy. I look forward to hearing the Minister set that out on the record. I shall think about his response when it comes to considering whether to press my amendment to his amendment.

[Lord Whitty]

My Lords, I support Amendment 8 as an amendment to Amendment 7, because it would require the Government in relation to free schools to engage in at least the same degree of consultation as they are required to engage in on conversion.

In a sense, I congratulate the Government on redesignating free schools as “additional schools” because that indicates what they really are. It may not be what the Minister’s PR department would have advised him to call them, but “additional schools” raises the issue of additional resources. At some point in this debate, probably now in another place, he and his colleagues will have to answer the question posed by my noble friend Lord Knight on how the additional schools will be financed.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I am grateful for the comments that have come from all sides of the House about consultation. I am grateful, too, for it being recognised that I have listened to concerns and that the Government have moved a considerable way in reflecting them. As I said previously, that has been in response not only to concerns raised with me by my noble friends Lord Phillips, Lady Williams and Lady Walmsley but also to the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, last week about wanting to be sure that the requirements for consultation on new academies—free schools—were the same as those for converting schools, which was the focus of our previous amendment. I shall try to provide as much reassurance on that as I can to the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan of Drefelin, as I go along.

The first thing I should do is congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, on understanding what I think is quite opaque drafting, in certain places, by the parliamentary draftsman. He was spot on in his interpretation of subsection (4), which was the question asked by my noble friend Lady Walmsley. It was designed precisely to capture the situation that she cited as an example that she wanted captured, so I hope I can reassure her that it would meet that.

As for the point raised by my noble friend Lord Phillips, it is fair to say that one of the tests for the approval of a new free school will be for the promoter to show that there is demand and support. Without being able to demonstrate that there is demand and support, without that basic evidence, the proposal would simply not be accepted or endorsed by the Secretary of State. It is not the point that one would need to have reassurance that he would satisfy himself that, if it had not happened, a consultation needed to take place. If the new free school proposal cannot demonstrate parental support, which could be demonstrated, I think, only by consultation, the proposal could not be accepted. That is, in part, the answer to the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan. Before approving a proposal, the Secretary of State would have to see evidence that assured him that there was appropriate demand and support.

Secondly—I know that this concern about free schools was raised by other noble Lords —the Secretary of State has made it clear that he will carry out a fit and proper test of any proposer of a free school and take that extremely seriously. Thirdly—I am happy to put this on the record—we have obviously accepted the argument made by a number of noble Lords that we need to be clear in legislation that the requirement to consult applies equally to new free schools as it does to the converting academies that we discussed at an earlier date. The aim and purpose of these amendments is to achieve precisely that.

Moving on to Amendment 8 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, I find the argument put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, quite persuasive. I know it is surprising. It is persuasive about the difficulty of these descriptions laying oneself open to legal challenge, so I do not find myself compelled to accept Amendment 8. As for the noble Lord, Lord Knight, if it is acceptable to him, because he made important points, although they were more like Committee stage points and quite a long way from the specific amendments about consultation, perhaps I may follow that up with him afterwards. I am happy to write to him. I am happy to meet him and talk about his points because I agree that they are important points. I hope that that provides the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, a little more information in the light of which—

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

I apologise for interrupting the last gasp of the Minister’s excellent reply, but would it be fair to say that the obligation of the Secretary of State on the impact consideration is, to a significant degree, a different undertaking from the consultation to be undertaken by the promoters and that the Secretary of State will have to form his or her own judgment as to impact?

[Baroness Morgan of Drefelin]

Before the Minister responds to that point, will he also consider the points made by my noble friend Lord Knight about the impact on schools in an area? We talked about funding at Second Reading, in Committee and on Report. It is a theme that has come back again and again and it is an important point. When you are looking at the impact of a new school on an educational community, funding is a key question.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I was not disputing for one moment that it is an important issue. I was attempting, however crudely, to make the point that, with regard to consultation, which is the purpose of these amendments, I was not clear, as I listened to his points, precisely how they related to the amendments. As for my noble friend Lord Phillips, I have difficulty because he always asks such intelligent, perceptive and well-argued questions. My noble friend asked whether the Secretary of State will have to take the impact into account. The answer to that question is yes.

Amendment 6 agreed.

Amendment 7

Moved by

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

7: Before Clause 9, insert the following new Clause—
“Consultation: additional schools
(1) Before entering into Academy arrangements with the Secretary of State in relation to an additional school, a person must consult such persons as the person thinks appropriate.
(2) The consultation must be on the question of whether the arrangements should be entered into.
(3) “Additional school” has the same meaning as in section (Impact: additional schools).”

Amendment 8 (to Amendment 7) not moved.

Amendment 7 agreed.

Amendment 9

Moved by

[Baroness Williams of Crosby]

9: Before Clause 9, insert the following new Clause—
“Annual reports
(1) For each academic year the Secretary of State must prepare and publish a report containing information on—
(a) Academy arrangements entered into during the year, and(b) the performance of Academies during the year (see subsection (2)).(2) The report must include information relating to the performance of Academies which has been provided to the Secretary of State pursuant to—
(a) regulations made under section 537 of EA 1996 (power of Secretary of State to require information);(b) Academy arrangements.(3) The first report under this section must relate to the academic year beginning 1 August 2010.
(4) The Secretary of State must lay before Parliament a copy of each report under this section.
(5) In this section “academic year” means a period of 12 months beginning on 1 August.”

[Baroness Williams of Crosby]

I am grateful to the Minister and to the Secretary of State in another place for the consideration and care that they have given to the whole issue of accountability. The Bill has improved considerably as a result of discussions in this House. We have had long discussions about the issue of consultation and governing bodies, and the net effect of this has been that we have a much more accountable and responsible structure in the Bill than we had when it began. For that, and for their willingness to listen, I thank them both.

At an earlier stage in the Bill, when my noble friends Lord Phillips of Sudbury and Lady Walmsley were very concerned about issues of accountability, we came up with the proposal that there should be an annual report to Parliament, and it is still highly appropriate to hold on to that. It is correct that the Government should have accepted this amendment and I thank them for their help in drafting it.

The purpose of the amendment is to enable not only the Select Committee but Parliament itself to consider what is, after all, a major experiment in education. There will be many aspects of that major experiment that people will want to look at. What happens to the quality of schooling, the movement of teachers and school leadership? What happens to the heads and governing bodies? There will be many more questions. So it is appropriate that a wider body than even a Select Committee should be brought into this discussion. One of the important issues here is going to be that the basis on which statistics are laid down in the annual reports should be broadly comparable with those in other related reports. My noble friend Lord Phillips will say more about that.

I shall point to two things in particular that are crucial in this report that we hope will be made available on an annual basis from this year onwards. The first of those is to track the effects of the removal of a great deal of what one might describe as “micromanagement” from the schools. Many of us on this side of the House, and many of us in the coalition, have been concerned about the levels of micromanagement in schools, and we believe that there is likely to be a more innovative approach and a greater deal of discretion for teachers if this experiment succeeds as the Government clearly intend it to do. On the other hand, there is a valid question that hangs in the sky: might we be moving towards a two-tier system of education? The initial applications are a little troubling in that respect. For example, counties such as Surrey and Hertfordshire appear to be responding at a rate of around 10 per cent of the secondary schools that might be applicable to become academies, whereas areas such as Middlesbrough, Knowsley and other poorer parts of northern England do not seem to be caught up with excitement at the idea of academies and are therefore not applying in large numbers to join.

There is another, related factor. So far, the schools that have applied appear, from the London School of Economics study which has been published in the past couple of days, to be atypically low in terms of free school meals and youngsters with special educational needs. These things will need very close observation, discussion and scrutiny. An annual report will be crucial in making that happen.

Again, I thank the Ministers on behalf of my noble friends and me for the consideration that they have given to this issue. I hope that this—which will, in its way, be something of an experiment—will turn out to be a very useful, radical new proposal in managing government and making it more accountable to Parliament than ever before. I beg to move.

[Baroness Walmsley]

My Lords, I added my name to this amendment, which I strongly commend to the House. I share my noble friend’s concern about the analysis of the socio-demographic groups of the children in the schools that have shown initial interest in this experiment. I hope that the attraction of the programme will spread more widely among the schools in this country if individual schools find it the best option for them.

I am delighted that the amendment is not too prescriptive. Noble Lords have mentioned in the course of our debates many groups about which they have concerns. An opportunity for a vigorous debate every year in Parliament about, for example, the impact of the programme on children with special needs, children in public care, children who are themselves carers, children in primary schools and children with the major deprivations that concern us all will be a very good contribution to the further development of the programme. It is important that Parliament has a vigorous and widespread debate about the progress of this programme.

[Baroness Sharp of Guildford]

My Lords, I, too, support the amendment. It is very important that if it is agreed, or if the Minister agrees to a similar amendment, it is enacted. It has been drawn to my attention that we have, in the various education Acts that we have passed in the past 10 years or so, quite frequently suggested that there should be an annual report. However, very few annual reports have appeared or been presented to Parliament. In particular, it was drawn to my attention that Section 38 of the Education Act 2002, “Communication with schools”, relates to a point that my noble friend Lady Williams raised about micromanagement. We were in the process of trying to limit the micromanagement of schools. That particular section requires an annual report, listing all the documents sent by the Secretary of State to governing bodies, to be laid before Parliament. I cannot find any evidence that such a report has ever been made, let alone laid before Parliament or discussed here. Perhaps I should have chased this up earlier. According to Hansard, the noble Baroness, Lady Ashton, who was the relevant Minister at the time, said:

“I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, who pushed and prodded us to the point that we have reached”.—[Official Report, 23/7/02; col. 249.]

I feel that, to some extent, I should have chased this report more than I have, but it makes the point that if we wish for an annual report, we should receive one and it should be considered before Parliament.

[Lord Adonis]

I have absolutely no objection to the amendment. If this is part of the glue that is holding the coalition together, it is clearly a very worthwhile amendment. However, it does not amount to much, since Ofsted already publishes an annual report that evaluates the progress of all schools. It has not been mentioned in our debate, but Ofsted gives specific coverage to the performance of academies in that annual report.

The last Ofsted annual report makes glowing reference to the progress of academies—to the value that they add and, in particular, to the extremely favourable ratings that Ofsted gives them, especially to their governance and management. That is the main difference that academies make; they bring in and enhance governance and management.

The Ofsted annual reports have, over several years, substantially validated the previous Government’s decision to start the academy movement. I imagine that this annual report will largely photocopy the annual report which Ofsted produces. It no doubt goes through a different bureaucratic procedure and will allow different opportunities for debate, but it will not substantially add to the knowledge base which the House and the public already have as a result of the Ofsted report. It complicates the legislative framework a little, but that may or may not be a bad thing.

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, I am, I admit, rather attracted to this idea. Maybe it has gone on in the past and it has not appeared before us or we have not followed it up as we should. Nevertheless, we are talking about a situation in which there are going to be rather a large number of changes. It would also have the attraction of being a sort of pre- and post-scrutiny process. It would be a splendid opportunity to see how the whole scene is working, and equally, as the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, has said, where there are specific interests such as special needs, to see what is happening about children in care and so on. I think it well worth considering, and I hope the Minister will consider it favourably.

17:15

[Lord Willis of Knaresborough]

First, I am extremely supportive of these amendments, but I was amused by the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, about Ofsted. I am sure he did not wish to mislead the House because that would be unforgivable, but Ofsted does not report on every school every year. In fact, the proposal of my learned friend the Minister is that those that get academy status, particularly those that get automatic academy status because Ofsted has already determined them to be outstanding schools, will in fact be rarely inspected by Ofsted. I think the whole purpose of my noble friend’s proposal in this amendment is that we will have comparable data, which we were due to have under the 1996 Act, so that we can make sure that we do not have the scrabble in the media to compare different types of schools but that we have a baseline of data on all our schools, including academies, that allow this House, and indeed the other place, to have a sensible, adult and cultured debate about the progress of our schools.

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

My Lords, I, too, support this amendment in the name of my noble friends. The process of having an annual report might also greatly reassure all those who have raised concerns about special educational needs in the academies throughout these debates. This would of course be a monitoring activity whereby we could see how the academies were responding in that particular area as well as across the other fields.

[Baroness Morgan of Huyton]

I have a question for the mover of the amendment. While I am not unsympathetic to this amendment, because in a sense it reflects some of our conversations in Committee and on Report, I am not clear whether it suggests a parallel process of monitoring that goes into all academies in the future. If it does, I am unconvinced that the department at present is able or ready to do that. I do not think we have seen much evidence recently of sufficient numbers of civil servants with time on their hands with the capacity to go into schools and produce a whole set of parallel reports. I would have thought a more sensible approach would be to look to Ofsted to see whether it could do some specific work on the new section of academies that otherwise are not going to be reported on regularly. While I have nothing against the spirit of the amendment, I am rather doubtful about setting up a parallel process with a group of schools that is not being applied to other schools.

[Baroness Walmsley]

I hope the House will allow me to say on behalf of the mover, since clarification has been required, that the analysis by the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, of the amendment is a misreading of its intention.

[Baroness Morgan of Drefelin]

Well, another Morgan rises. This is a very interesting amendment. It has prompted quite a fascinating debate at the end of the passage of this Bill. For me the question is: what do we really want this annual report to look at? Is it the free- market, free school experiment in which we replicate the experience of Sweden so we can see by evaluating the impact on standards, as they did in Sweden, how standards fell markedly, or the expansion of the Labour Government’s very successful academy programme and how the coalition Government have learnt from that and further driven up standards based on our expertise and experience? There are lots of different ways of looking at this report.

I am very much in favour of ensuring that we have the data to evaluate the impact of government policy, that they are properly scrutinised and that Parliament has the opportunity to debate the outcome of that work. What would most interest me is a commitment from the Minister that we will debate this policy of expanding or morphing Labour’s academy programme to encompass outstanding schools and its impact, and have some hard data to back up the debate. We are having a conversation around this House that will carry on for some years. It would be good if that were to be supported by hard data. In the past, we have also had real concerns about the impact on children with disabilities and special educational needs, and on children in care. The ability to shine a light on the impact of the policy on their experiences and outcomes would also be of help. I am therefore sure that if that means we are actually going to do something with the data, I would support that. If there are annual reports that have not been published but should have been, I am sure that they are in the process of being compiled and we will see them coming on stream very shortly.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

My Lords, I am very grateful to my noble friend Lady Williams for moving this amendment, not least because it gives me an opportunity, perhaps for the first time in our many lengthy discussions, to disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Adonis. I am grateful for that, if for nothing else—even though I obviously applaud the fact that that the amendment will deliver scrutiny and rightly give Parliament the opportunity to look at the progress of this important policy. As the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan of Drefelin, said, we have had an interesting debate in which all sorts of views have come from some surprising quarters around this House. I welcome the support of her party to openness and parliamentary accountability, which is perhaps a shift from the position that it might have adopted a few months ago when noble Lords were calling for debates and scrutiny. However, that point may be unfair.

During the second day of Report, I agreed and was keen to reflect on the persuasive arguments brought by my noble friends Lady Williams and Lady Walmsley, and, I accept, by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, when we debated the importance of parliamentary scrutiny of the progress of academies and the impact of the Bill. I am therefore delighted that my noble friend Lady Williams has returned with the amendment.

We believe—this lay behind the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Adonis—that academies already operate within a highly accountable framework. They are indeed inspected by Ofsted and have to report on their performance to the Secretary of State; but I fully accept my noble friend’s argument that this policy marks a significant extension of the academies programme and that it is therefore right that we should report regularly to Parliament on its progress.

On the question asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan of Drefelin, decisions about debates are probably not taken by me; I do not know, and it is not my area. Others in the House authorities will take them. However, if such a decision is taken, we could certainly debate the issue and, after the discussions that we have had so far in Committee and on Report, I can hardly wait for another opportunity to discuss academies.

I thank my noble friends Lady Williams and Lady Walmsley for their help and advice on this issue. It is also true, having heard the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, talking about prodding and poking, that I feel prodded and poked by many of my noble friends, including the noble Baroness. I am grateful for that. I also thank all those who gave so generously of their time in Committee and on Report. A hard core sat through many hours, including Members of the opposition Front Bench. I should like to place my thanks to them on the record. I am grateful to noble Lords for the contributions made from all sides of this House. I am certain that the Bill is better as a result.

Amendment 9 will increase transparency and accountability to Parliament. That seems the right way forward, and I am extremely happy to accept my noble friend’s amendment.

[Baroness Williams of Crosby]

My Lords, I thank the Minister and will comment briefly on the agreeable words of the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan of Drefelin. The purpose of this annual report is to enable us to find a great deal of wisdom and information on a number of things that we might be concerned about. I mentioned earlier, as did my noble friend Lady Walmsley, the socio-economic structures of those entering the academy pattern and whether there would be considerable diversity, given that it is likely to be a different group according to which academies come forward. Other noble Lords have mentioned their concern about SEN or how far local authorities will play a strategic role. We can get a great deal out of this kind of report.

I have long believed, not least in education, which is a long-term project by nature of the speed at which children grow up, that we would have been wise on all sides of the House if many years ago we had much more carefully considered the effects of what we passed in our respective Houses of Parliament, rather than moving on to the next piece of legislation without learning much from the previous pieces. For all those reasons, this is not an issue of political disagreement; it is a step towards the whole concept of an accountable Parliament in an accountable democracy.

Amendment 9 agreed.

A privilege amendment was made and the Bill was passed and sent to the Commons with amendments.

Counterterrorism and Security

Tuesday 13th July 2010 Lords Chamber

Statement

17:27

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Neville-Jones)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House I will repeat a Statement made by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department on the review of counterterrorism and security powers.

“With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a Statement on the review of counterterrorism and security powers. As I have said to the House before, the first duty of Government is to protect the public—but that duty must never be used as a reason to ride roughshod over civil liberties. And that is what the last Government did on too many occasions. This Government are different. We have already introduced legislation to get rid of ID cards once and for all. We have already declared our intention to bring forward a freedom Bill later this year. Just last week, I announced interim restrictions on the use of stop and search powers under Section 44 of the Terrorism Act 2000.

Today, as promised in the coalition agreement, I am announcing an urgent review of counterterrorism and security powers. The review will consider six key powers. They are: control orders; Section 44 stop and search powers and the use of terrorism legislation in relation to photography; the use of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 by local authorities and access to communications data more generally; extending the use of deportations with assurances in a manner that is consistent with our legal and human rights obligations; measures to deal with organisations that promote hatred or violence; and the detention of terrorist suspects before charge.

These are the most controversial and sensitive powers. In particular, the issue of pre-charge detention has been the subject of considerable debate in this House and tomorrow we will consider whether to renew the current detention limit for a further six months. This will provide us with sufficient time to look carefully at pre-charge detention in the review and to explore how we can reduce the period of detention below 28 days. The review will also help to inform what additional safeguards are needed in the proposed asset freezing Bill which the Treasury will introduce shortly.

The Government's work on the use of intercept as evidence in court and the modernisation of our interception capabilities will be done separately and will not form part of this review. The review will be conducted by the Home Office with the full involvement of the police, the security and intelligence agencies and other government departments including those in Scotland and Northern Ireland. I want the review to be conducted as openly and transparently as possible. I have asked Liberty to contribute to this review and it has said that it will be delighted to do so. I am keen to involve other civil liberty and community organisations. As with other reviews, I would urge anyone with an interest to submit their views to the Home Office.

To ensure independent oversight of the review, I have asked the noble Lord, Lord Macdonald of River Glaven, a former Director of Public Prosecutions, now a Member of the other place, to make sure that the work is properly conducted, that all the relevant options have been considered and that the recommendations of the review are not only fair but seen to be fair. This role is distinct from the excellent work that is already being undertaken by the noble Lord, Lord Carlile of Berriew QC, in his statutory role as independent reviewer of terrorism legislation. The proposals made by the noble Lord, Lord Carlile will be fully considered as part of the review and I know that he welcomes the additional independent perspective that Lord Macdonald will provide on these issues. Any legislative amendments as a result of that review will of course be subject to review by the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation.

I have ordered that the review should be completed as quickly as possible, because it is important that the police and the security and intelligence agencies are able to do their vital work with certainty and confidence. So I will report back to Parliament on the outcome of the review after the Summer Recess.

Before I finish, I want to make one thing absolutely clear. In correcting the mistakes of the previous Government, we are doing just that. We are not criticising or castigating members of the police or the security and intelligence services. They do their work with bravery, patriotism and a strong sense of duty—and I know the whole House will want to join me in paying tribute to them.

The review will enable this Government to put right the failures of the last, and in so doing, restore the ancient civil liberties that should be synonymous with the name of our country. I commend this Statement to the House”.

My Lords, that concludes the Statement.

17:32

[Lord Brett]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for repeating the Statement made by the Home Secretary in another place. It is worth recalling that the terrorist legislation passed in 2006 had all-party support, driven by the widest understanding that the only response to al-Qaeda, and to protect our people from a potential repeat of the horrors of the 7/7 tragedy, was to counter the threat and defeat it. The all-party support was buttressed by an endeavour on the part of the Government at the time to ensure the widest consensus and to consult extensively to that end.

Five years later, the threat has not diminished, as the Prime Minister reminded Parliament and the country in his Statement on 6 July. This leads to my first and most important question. Will the Minister confirm that this review is not being held to scale down the powers needed to address the severe security threat that we still face? To that end, will she give her latest estimate of the number of terror suspects engaged in complex plots? Will she say how many such plots have been disrupted since 7/7? Will she ensure that the same spirit and degree of consensus-seeking takes place in reviewing anti-terrorist legislation that characterised the approach to the 2006 terrorism legislation? Will the Government publish the terms of reference of the review, and if so, when? Also, will the review encompass the measures announced last week in respect of Section 44? All noble Lords will agree that the first duty of government is to protect the public. However, I am sure they will also agree that that must be balanced with the protection of civil liberties.

That leads me to a final question and a comment on what now seems to be a mantra in government: to blame everything, including the weather, on the previous Government. I think that there is a slightly partisan element in the penultimate paragraph of the Home Secretary’s Statement. She lays great stress on the “mistakes of the last Government”, while warmly commending members of the police, security and intelligence services on their “bravery, patriotism and a strong sense of duty”. I strongly endorse that tribute, as will all noble Lords. However, I should like to ask a question which no one in government is better qualified to answer than the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Jones. Does she agree that much of the strengthening of anti-terrorism legislation was in direct response to the request of those same brave and patriotic police, security and intelligence services and their need for better weapons and resources to tackle those who would perpetuate another 7/7 or perhaps something worse? Alternatively, does she believe that it was thrust upon unwilling police, security and intelligence services? Accordingly, can she assure the House that the weapons and resources available will not be diminished as a result of the proposed review?

17:36

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

My Lords, I certainly join the noble Lord in his view that there is wide agreement in this House and between the aisles on the need for appropriate legislation to ensure our security. I do not think that anything divides us on that. He asked a number of fairly specific questions and I shall do my best to answer them. The first practical one was whether the review will be conducted in a way that does not lower our security. That is absolutely the case. With my title and obligations, it is one of my tasks to ensure that that does not happen.

I was asked when the terms of reference will be published. We are now conducting a certain amount of internal work which should certainly enable us to publish them in time for the start of the consultation. As we indicated, the timetable is fairly short, and we want the review to be carried out rapidly for two reasons. First, we believe that the changes can and should be made, and that they are not so complicated that a very long time is required for them; and, secondly, a degree of uncertainty in the legislation, particularly in relation to Section 44, needs to be clarified. Therefore, there are good reasons for not delaying the timetable that the Home Secretary has set out. As I said, we will publish the terms of reference and make sure that bodies with a strong interest are able to look at them and put forward their views. We will find some practical means, such as a website, to ensure that people are able to submit those views.

As I said, the review will cover the rather anomalous situation that has arisen in relation to Section 44 so that there is clarity for the police in going forward. I take the noble Lord’s point that many of the measures put in place earlier were in direct response to the security situation that had arisen. It is fair to say that the Terrorism Act 2000, which in good part was based on previous Conservative Party legislation in relation to Northern Ireland and was built partly on the report of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, was indeed consensus legislation. Since then, I think that there have been divergences between us, and it is those that we want to try to correct.

There was quite a lot of controversy over the length of pre-charge detention. That, frankly, has not been stilled by the legislation that we now have in place and it is clearly one of the main reasons for wanting this review to take place now. In one or two other areas, it is not so much a question of what is on the statute book—although I think that clarity on the statute book is government’s responsibility—as how it has been used. Therefore, if we have to alter legislation, we want to bring clarity to exactly what people are permitted to do. This is an example in the area, for instance, of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act and the powers of local authorities—the level of authority that they will need to obtain in order to be able to operate their rights under the Act, and indeed, as I say, to prevent abuse of Section 44.

So it is partly a question of how much we change the framework of the legislation, and part of it is to try to control and prevent further abuse. Also on control orders, the courts have shown that they are unhappy about the breadth of some of the legislation. We want to try and ensure that if we decide in the end that those control orders have to remain as part of our panoply of powers, they are used in a manner which is proportionate and in accordance with our obligations under the Human Rights Act.

17:40

[Lord Lloyd of Berwick]

My Lords, I welcome every word of this important Statement, especially the appointment of my noble friend Lord Macdonald to oversee the review. Am I right that independent oversight by such a person is a novel idea for a Home Office review? Whether I am right or not, I welcome the idea most warmly.

Among the six matters which are to be reviewed we will each have our own pecking order. The most harmful in my view have been control orders, 28 days’ detention without trial and Section 44, in that order.

Does the Minister recall the pledge given by the previous Government after an all-night sitting in March 2005 that they would bring back control orders for a comprehensive review within a year? I remind the noble Lord, Lord Brett, that although there was a degree of consensus in relation to the 2006 Act which he mentioned, there was certainly no consensus in relation to the 2005 Act. If there had been, there would have been no need for an all-night sitting.

Does the Minister share my relief that that pledge given back in 2005 is now being redeemed? Does she also recall another pledge that the whole mass of terrorist legislation which now disfigures our statute book would be consolidated? This is of course nothing like as urgent as the other matters which have been mentioned, but I hope the Minister can say that this idea has not been forgotten either.

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

My Lords, I do not know the answer to the question of whether this is a novel idea. I certainly think it is a very good one, and obviously the object of having the involvement of the noble Lord, Lord Macdonald, is to ensure, and also to be able to give assurance to the outside world, that the review has been thorough and looked at all the options, and that it has been impartial and provides the best balance between our security needs and our rights as citizens as we can provide.

I share the noble and learned Lord’s relief that we are able now to redeem the pledge on the review of control orders. This has been overdue and that is why we regard it as an urgent thing to get on with.

On the question of consolidation of terrorism legislation, that is one of the things we would like to do. Noble Lords will be aware of the volume of urgent things that need to be on the statute book so I cannot promise that it is going to be an early piece of legislation. What is more, if we are going to do it we should do it thoroughly and well. In that area, haste will be the enemy of good work. I would rather produce a decent piece of legislation in due course than hurry at it. Finally, I hope that over time we are going to be able to reduce this panoply of emergency legislation. In a sense, it is no part of a democracy to have to continue with this sort of legislation for a moment longer than we need.

We still face a persistent and serious threat—and I failed to answer the noble Lord’s question about terrorist plots. I hope that noble Lords will forgive me for being unable to answer it today. I will be in a better position to do so next week when we debate the legislation on pre-charge detention. Indeed, I will be happy to do so then.

[Lord Dear]

My Lords, I echo the words of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick. I agree with everything he said. I, too, welcome the review. I could speak at length about all six items enumerated in the Statement but perhaps I may pick up only one—item six, on the detention of terrorist subjects before charge. Will the Minister assure your Lordships' House that due weight will be given to the views and experience of the current DPP? I ask that question because when, like others, I was closely involved in the attempt to extend detention before charge from 28 days to 42 days, the then DPP and the two immediate successors said that they had not needed powers to go beyond 28 days. Notwithstanding the tremendously high standard of work carried out by the police and security services, it occurs to me that of all the bodies on this stage, the DPP is most particularly concerned with the adequacy of evidence and whether charges should be preferred.

Furthermore, the Minister commented on the use of intercept evidence, which will not form part of this review but will be looked at separately. Will she assure the House that that review will not be deflected? My views and those of other Members of the House have been outlined on a number of occasions, and a body of opinion says that it should be looked at as a matter of urgency and legislation changed to allow that form of evidence to be admitted.

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

My Lords, on the noble Lord’s first point, I can guarantee that we will be giving due weight to the views of the current DPP. I entirely agree with the centrality of those views. As I said, we will give weight to all views that are put to us.

As regards intercept evidence, I entirely take the point that it must not be left to moulder for ever. The Chilcot committee is still doing its work and we believe that it ought to be allowed to finish it. The noble Lord also knows that there are a number of issues that are not entirely straightforward. I am not in any way suggesting that we will not continue with this work, but it is because we do not believe that we can put it on a relatively fast track that we do not want to include it in this particular package. However, we will certainly be bringing forward our conclusions and, if necessary, further proposals.

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean]

My Lords, will the Minister develop a couple of points? The fourth of the six powers to be reviewed is that of extending the use of deportations with assurances. Is it envisaged that the use is to be extended to different categories of people in this country, or is the power to be extended to different countries? I have had experience of dealing with that in the past few years, and I know that however keen we are to see people leaving our shores, those receiving them are not always thrilled to bits about the idea of having them back. Can the Minister tell us anything more on that point?

My second point is one of clarification not about the role of the noble Lord, Lord Macdonald of River Glaven, but about his authority. Is this review to be a Home Office review under the name of the Home Secretary, or is it to be a review to which the noble Lord, Lord Macdonald, will be giving his name? If it is the latter, can the Minister tell us what the position of the Home Office will be in regard to the costs of the review? The Statement clearly indicates that it is the first duty of government to protect the public, and we would all agree with that. Therefore, it must surely have first call on public finances. If the review comes up with suggestions which are a cost to the public purse, can the Minister assure us that it will be readily met by the Home Office?

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

On the noble Baroness's first point about extending deportation with assurances, how right she is: that is very difficult. Her point about our desire to deport and others’ reluctance to receive is absolutely right. Extension should be understood primarily in the area of, nevertheless, trying to extend the policy to other countries. We have no present intention to extend the categories. In many respects, this is a highly practical and political problem; it is not, frankly, a legislative problem. We felt that, as this is a matter of such public concern, we need to try to make progress. The Foreign Office is actively engaged with Governments on the issue. I cannot promise how much we will have to report. I cannot say that I am confident that we will have made a great deal of early progress, but we take this issue seriously and we want to try to make it effective. It may require more action on a broader front to make the policy effective and, at the same time, consistent with our obligations.

On the noble Baroness’s second point about the auspices of the review, this is a Home Office review. This review is not being let out to someone else. The reason for asking the noble Lord, Lord Macdonald, to be involved is to provide assurance that a Home Office review of its own legislation has injected into it a degree of standing back and impartiality, to ask whether it makes sense and to help those who, after all, have drafted previous legislation themselves to stand back from what they have done previously. It is to open a window and let in a bit of fresh air—that is the spirit of it—and to create a certain amount of challenge in the system, such that we can be satisfied that when we come up with something, it passes various tests.

[Baroness Manningham-Buller]

I welcome the announcement of the review by the Minister. I suppose that I should declare an interest, in that I was head of the Security Service from 2002 to 2007, when much of this legislation went through. I also welcome her kind remarks about my former colleagues. However, I would like to correct the impression that all legislation was in response to requests by the security and intelligence services—or, indeed, by the police. That is completely untrue. There were certainly things that we sought and asked for but, as I have said in this House before, control orders, for example, were not one of them. The previous Government rightly made their own decision on what to legislate for. They were not dictated to or responding to endless requests from us. They took their own view on what it was appropriate to legislate for. I make that correction.

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

The House would agree that the noble Baroness is quite right; the Government in office must take responsibility for the legislation that they put forward.

[Baroness Hamwee]

My Lords, I welcome the Statement very much. I think I heard the Minister say that the Home Office will be consulting on the terms of reference, not just once the terms of reference have been set. That would be very welcome, because so many of those who are concerned with these issues may want to have an input at that early stage. With regard to the terms of reference, I ask about item 4, which may remain the fourth of six or become the fourth of more items. The term is,

“extending the use of deportations with assurances”,

which suggests that the Home Secretary already has a view that they should be extended. Everything else is couched in more neutral language, and I wonder whether the Minister would comment on that.

With regard to intercept as evidence, can the noble Baroness assure the House that the noble Lord, Lord Macdonald, and those conducting the review will be able to talk to the team dealing with intercept as evidence, because even if it is not included in the review, there must be information that could usefully be shared?

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

I hope that I did not mislead the noble Baroness when I talked about the terms of reference. We will publish them, but we do not intend to consult on them per se. I hope also that I made it clear that we will have a very open consultation process that will include not only consulting in an organised way with various interested parties, but offering the opportunity through a website for a wider audience to offer its views. I hope that the terms of reference will not themselves be a constraint on the way in which the six topics are dealt with.

I will say one thing in defence of not consulting on the terms of reference. We want to move on this fairly fast, so there are limits, if I may say, to the number of stages to which we should apply the consultation process. I beg the indulgence of the House in suggesting that we should leave it as an extensive consultation process that will follow, having set the terms of reference.

On the question of the extension of deportation with assurances, I do not have a great deal to add to an earlier answer. We see being able to extend the process of DWA to other countries as useful and in the public interest. The reason is a practical one. We find that there is an increasing number of nationalities where the need to deport is actually an operational requirement. We want to put in place circumstances in which we can do that in a manner compatible with our obligations.

Finally, the noble Baroness asked about the relevance of intercept as evidence. She is quite right to say that various aspects are relevant to the subjects that we have under discussion, and those involved in the review will indeed have the necessary access.

[Lord Judd]

My Lords, the Joint Committee on Human Rights has done a great deal of work on this issue. Can the noble Baroness assure the House that its work will be taken into account in the review? Does she agree that terrorists operate when there is substantial alienation or, at least, ambivalence among people about how far they support the prevailing laws? In that context, is it not important for the review at least to take a look at how immigration, asylum and border controls are operated, to ensure that these are being done at all times in ways that win people’s heart and minds rather than actually leading to alienation? Finally, on deportations with assurances, I support some of the anxieties that have been expressed and ask simply whether the review can look closely at how much credence in the long term can be based on assurances, particularly with countries in which the use of torture is systematic in their administration of so-called justice?

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

The noble Lord is right that the Joint Committee on Human Rights has done extraordinarily valuable work, and I give him an absolute assurance that it will be taken into account in this review. On the question of whether there is support in the country for this body of prevailing law, one reason we want to look at it is precisely because we know that there is indeed unease—but not, I think, unease which is particularly to be found in any single quarter; it is more general than that. Obviously there are related issues and the question in all such reviews is about where you stop. One area that we regard as related, but which we are going to take separately although in current time, is how we pursue one of the four strands of CONTEST, that of the Prevent strategy. Our aim is not to abolish it, but we hope to make it more effective or, if I may put it this way, a bit more fit for purpose because we regard it as a flanking policy which affects the acceptability of some of this legislation, particularly among ethnic and minority communities.

Finally, the noble Lord raised the issue of deportation with assurances. The Government know that this is a difficult area and that what is written on paper is not always necessarily the reality. We also know that if we do not attempt to start a dialogue with countries and get assurances about the conditions into which people are going to be sent back and that they will be safe, we reduce the possibility of introducing such a policy. We have to have the capability, over time, of removing from this country people who have been convicted of very serious offences, and it is into that category that these people fall. We want to pursue the policy, but we do so with our eyes wide open.

Nanotechnologies and Food: Science and Technology Committee Report

Tuesday 13th July 2010 Lords Chamber

Motion to Take Note

18:01

Moved By

[Lord Krebs]

That this House takes note of the Report of the Science and Technology Committee on Nanotechnologies and Food (First Report, Session 2009–10, HL Paper 22).

[Lord Krebs]

My Lords, I start by declaring two interests, as a former chair of the Food Standards Agency and as president of Campden BRI.

Nanotechnology is the study of the very small. It involves manipulating matter on the scale of atoms or molecules. If you are like me, you may find it difficult to get your mind around just how small “small” means. Let me give you an idea. It is sometimes claimed that medieval scholars such as Duns Scotus and Thomas Aquinas debated the question of how many angels can fit on the head of a pin or even the point of a needle. The authenticity of this claim is disputed, although in 1667 Richard Baxter, in his tract The Reasons of the Christian Religion, definitely refers to such a debate. If we move from angels to nanoparticles, how many could you fit on the head of a pin? The answer is 300 million nanoparticles, each 100 nanometres in diameter. Alternatively, your Order Paper is roughly 100,000 nanometres thick. A further day-to-day illustration to make the point for noble Lords present is that their beards will have grown by roughly 200 nanometres since I started speaking. That is not a personal statement but a general phenomenon.

The notion of manipulating materials at the nanoscale was first suggested in 1959 by the Nobel Prize-winning physicist Richard Feynman, who noted that at this very small scale the conventional forces that we think of as influencing materials, such as gravity, would be replaced by other forces at the atomic level. As a result of this, and the very large surface area to volume ratio, the properties of materials may change dramatically at the nanoscale when compared with more conventional scales. For example, normal silver melts at a temperature of 960 degrees Celsius, but nanoscale silver particles can be melted with a hairdryer.

The phrase “nanotechnology” was first used in 1974 by the Japanese scientist Norio Taniguchi, and nowadays the potential of nanomaterials and nanotechnologies is being explored in many areas, from electronics to materials and the self-assembly manufacturing processes. Nanotechnology has also become the stuff of science fiction. Some commentators have been influenced by Michael Crichton’s book Prey, in which nanoparticles self-assembled into free-flying swarms that attacked human brains. Unfortunately, Mr Crichton got his science wrong. The forces of Brownian motion that act on nanoparticles would prevent them from assembling into co-ordinated swarms. The grey goo of certain parts of the popular press is a myth of science fiction.

Let me turn to the specifics of our inquiry. We chose to focus on just one area—the application of nanotechnologies in the food industry. In making that choice, we wished to restrict the range of our inquiry and we were also aware of previous, more general reports, notably an excellent Royal Society/Royal Academy of Engineering report, published in 2004.

The use of nanotechnology in the food sector is projected by experts to be a growth area. One projection is that by 2012 the global market for nanotechnologies in the food industry will reach a figure of $5.8 billion. What are the current and potential applications of nanotechnology in food and food-related products? This may appear to be a simple question but, as noble Lords will hear in a moment, the answer is not that straightforward. Scientific experts advise us that the potential of nanotechnologies in food may be summarised under four main headings. First, there is the reformulation of processed food. For instance, smaller quantities of an ingredient can achieve the same flavour and mouth feel if the ingredients are nanoscaled. This is in part because of the large surface area of nanoscaled particles. You can reduce the salt content of food without affecting its taste and reduce the fat content of food, such as ice cream or mayonnaise, without affecting their eating properties. You can also deliver nutrient supplements in nanoencapsulated particles that have nutritional benefit without affecting flavour. For instance, there is a loaf on sale in Australia that contains nanoencapsulated fish oils—the long chain polyunsaturated omega-3 oils that are good for the heart and perhaps the brain.

The second area is food packaging. We heard that nanotechnology can improve the barrier properties of food or drink packaging and therefore reduce waste by enabling food to be kept longer. To give one example, one of the major manufacturers of beer in the USA produces it in plastic bottles with a nanoclay layer to prevent the gas escaping and the beer going flat. There is also the potential for so-called intelligent packaging which will detect chemical changes in the food and enable the consumer to throw it away at the right moment rather than slavishly following best-before dates.

The third area of potential application is in the manufacturing process where we heard that nonotechnology can be used to develop anti-stick and anti-microbial surfaces to increase the efficiency of food manufacture. The fourth area of potential application is in agriculture, where we heard that nanoscaled pesticides or fertilisers may enable the farmer to use smaller doses and thereby reduce potential harm to the environment as well as save money.

That is all about potential but what about the current applications in the food we eat now? Here the story was more confused. On the one hand the Woodrow Wilson Centre in Washington has a database of 84 food-related products, including contact materials and supplements that are on the market world wide. On the other hand the Food and Drink Federation told us that there are no current or imminent products made in the UK and only two known uses on the market in the UK. Why this apparent discrepancy? In part, it might be to do with definitions. According to international standards, a particle becomes a nanoparticle if it has dimensions of 100 nanometres or less. If, for example, food contained particles of 120 nanometres, it would not be counted as food containing nanomaterials. But in food manufacturing it is highly likely that there will be a distribution of particle sizes, whatever the manufacturer intended, so a precise cut-off of 100 nanometres may be inappropriate. Whatever the current situation, there is clearly large—perhaps very large— future potential in this sector and several of our recommendations to government are related to capturing this potential here in the UK. We have a strong science base in the area of nanotechnologies, including in relation to food, and it is important to capture that science base in application rather than allow the knowledge to drift overseas for exploitation, as has so often happened in other areas in the past.

A key question at the heart of our report is whether the use of nanotechnologies in food poses potential risks to our health. Some witnesses argued that it might; others were more confident that there is no risk. Our conclusion from the evidence we heard is that, while there is no evidence of a clear and present danger from the use of nanotechnologies in food, there are important gaps in scientific knowledge that need to be filled in order for proper risk assessments to be undertaken. The whole point of using nanotechnologies in food is that they introduce novel properties into materials. Therefore, it is crucial to know how these novel properties affect the human body. While there is a considerable amount of research on the inhalation of nanoparticles and their implications for lung disease, there is far less work on the gut. In fact, we could identify only one research group in this country at the MRC Human Nutrition Research Unit in Cambridge that was active in this field.

We urge the relevant funders—for example, the Medical Research Council and the Food Standards Agency—to build more capacity in the toxicology of ingested nanoparticles as well as carrying out the relevant research to enable proper risk assessments to be undertaken. We recognise that research in this area, as well as regulation, is an international matter. Therefore, whatever research is undertaken in this country should be properly co-ordinated and integrated with research in other countries. But this recommendation of filling the knowledge gaps in relation to risk assessment is one that was made in 2004 in the Royal Society/Royal Academy of Engineering report and we were concerned that not enough had been done to take that forward.

In our consideration of potential risks from nanotechnologies in food, we distinguished between different kinds of nanomaterials. On the one hand, a distinction might be drawn between nanoparticles that occur naturally—I hope I will not alarm your Lordships by informing you that you have been eating nanoparticles all your lives, probably without knowing it—and artificially engineered nanoparticles. On the other hand, there is a distinction between nanoparticles that are rapidly degraded in the digestive tract, whether they are naturally occurring or engineered, and those that persist and therefore may be transported around the body, perhaps even crossing the blood/brain barrier and ending up in the brain. It is these persistent particles that could be more likely to pose a potential risk.

Does the current regulatory regime ensure that food containing nanoparticles is properly scrutinised for safety? The answer we drew from the evidence we took was: in principle yes; in practice not clear. The relevant legislation is European. The general principles of food law require food sold to consumers to be safe. More specific legislation applies safety standards to novel foods, food additives, food supplements, and food contact materials. So there might appear to be a plethora of adequate legislation to protect the consumer, but there is an ambiguity. Let me illustrate. If a food is reformulated to nanoscale certain ingredients—take an ice cream that contains the same kind of ingredients as before but with nanoscaled fat emulsion and therefore less fat—this may be deemed to be a novel food and therefore require prior approval under the novel food regulations. If not, its safety is guaranteed by general food law. However, given that the nanoscaling may itself introduce new properties and therefore new ways of interacting with the body, it would not be enough automatically to assume that, because we had always eaten ice cream, a nanoscaled ice cream would be equally safe.

In the United States we heard from the Food and Drug Administration of its concept of GRAS—generally regarded as safe—which applies to all foods that have been around for a long time and not caused a problem. The question in US terms is whether a food that has been eaten before and is now nanoscaled to produce new properties should generally be regarded as safe or subject to scrutiny under the novel food regulations.

There are two difficulties with this arrangement. The first is a lack of clarity about when a novel nanoscaled food would be considered a novel food under the regulations, because it depends on definitions. The second difficulty, to which I have already alluded, arises under any food legislation, be it for general food, novel foods or the other legislation to which I have referred. It concerns whether the gaps in scientific knowledge would enable the appropriate regulator—at the European level, it is European Food Safety Authority—adequately to assess risks.

Our proposal, based on the evidence we heard, was that, for regulatory purposes, the definition of nanoparticles should focus not on size alone—after all, size is not everything—but also on functionality; that is, how the nanoscaled material interacts with the human body. The key question for risk assessment and therefore for regulation is whether nanoscaling a material changes its properties in such a way as to have a potentially toxic effect on the body. We urge the Government in our report to take forward this matter of definition in Europe.

Finally, I turn to communication and transparency. We were told, both here and in the United States, that the food industry is reluctant to put its head above the parapet on developments of nanotechnology in food. There is apparently a fear that it could be a replay for the food industry of the debacle of GM foods in the 1990s. Your Lordships will recall that the food industry was at that time caught off guard by a combined campaign of certain newspapers and pressure groups and was forced in a rapid volte-face to withdraw GM products from the market, even though there had been and has still never been any identifiable health risk from approved products.

However, our conclusion was that there are a number of strong arguments against the policy of silence. First, by keeping quiet about nanotechnologies, the food industry leaves a communication vacuum into which pressure groups and/or inaccurate media reporting will happily step. Secondly, in contrast to what was said about GM products in the 1990s, there are real potential consumer benefits to be had from nanotechnologies—I have alluded to them—in producing healthier food, reducing waste and perhaps improving quality and flavour. Hence a communication narrative can be positive about developments that may be in the pipeline. Thirdly, silence and secrecy are fuel for the conspiracy theorists. One can just imagine stories that government and the food industry are conspiring to foist on the innocent consumer something that is dangerous and unwanted.

When I met leaders of the food industry recently to discuss our report, they emphasised the importance of a trusted, neutral ring-master to help with public engagement. For their money, the appropriate body is the Food Standards Agency. I hope, returning to an earlier debate in this Chamber, that the Minister will take this opportunity to confirm that newspaper reports of the FSA’s imminent demise are exaggerated. Public trust in food safety has been built by the Food Standards Agency. That would be put at risk if the agency were dismantled.

We did not see, however, an advantage in labelling foods that contain nanomaterials, as we could not see what consumers would do with such information when shopping in the supermarket. Instead, we recommended that the Food Standards Agency should keep a publicly available database of all nanofood products and food-related products.

I summarise my key points. Nanotechnology in food is forecast to be a growth industry. We recommend that the Government work to ensure that the UK is a major player in exploiting this opportunity. The Government should also work with the appropriate funders to ensure that gaps in knowledge for risk assessment are plugged. The Government should work with Brussels to improve the regulatory framework and definitions. There is a need for more openness and public debate, and the Government can play a role in this. While the previous Government accepted many of our 32 recommendations, we await a response from the present Government. I also note that with many of our recommendations, the previous Government, while accepting them in principle, did not actually say that they were going to act on them. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response later in the debate.

In closing, I should like to put on record my thanks to a number of people. It was a privilege to chair such an excellent Select Committee, the members of which were very hard-working, enthusiastic and thoughtful as well as being delightful to work with. Secondly, the secretariat of the science and technology sub-committee provided subtle steers and excellent guidance and produced a top-quality first draft, which made our task easier in the closing stages. Our specialist adviser, Professor Stephen Holgate of Southampton University Medical School, a major international authority on allergy, kept us on the scientific straight and narrow and provided lucid technical input at key moments. As part of our inquiry, we travelled to Washington DC, where the embassy officials arranged an excellent programme and our US hosts were patient and informative in helping us to understand the position in their country. I beg to move.

18:21

[The Earl of Selborne]

My Lords, the whole House will be grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Krebs. It is not easy to explain just how small a nanoparticle is, but I think he put that into perspective. I am enlightened to know that you can get 300 million nanoparticles on the head of a pin; that is a useful bit of information. Noble Lords will gather that we were very well served by our Chairman; I was very privileged to serve on this sub-committee. The noble Lord, Lord Krebs, with his experience at the Food Standards Agency, could not have been better equipped to undertake the chairing of this really quite complicated but very important subject.

I see this report in a historical context. History, I suppose, is a rather rough description when this science, as noble Lords heard, is very recent, but in 2004, as the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, reminded us, the Royal Society and the Royal Academy of Engineering produced a very helpful report that set out the ground rules for how this new technology might be underpinned by appropriate research. You cannot, after all, regulate a new industry unless you have adequate research and understanding of just what is happening. Later, there was the report from the Council for Science and Technology in 2007, and the Royal Commission on Environmental Pollution in 2008 reported on novel materials. All these reports have been very significant, and there is clearly much expectation in them of nanotechnologies. We dealt only with food, which is a relatively narrow area, but the 2004 report anticipated—correctly, as it turned out, because we are already seeing it—that nanomaterials in a wider context were likely to become commonplace, and recommended that research into health, safety and environmental impacts should keep pace with predicted developments. This research is so important, again as the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, very helpfully pointed out, because, when you start using materials at this scale, they simply do not behave as you would normally expect them to. His example of melting silver with a hairdryer, as opposed to at 960 degrees Celsius normally, demonstrates that you are talking about something that is not as you would expect.

The other conclusion I came to after reading this report was that there is every reason to believe that nanotechnology, provided that health and safety issues can be addressed and quantified, will be put to some extremely helpful uses in the food industry. We are not yet there, but as we have heard already, if you can reduce salt and fats in foods, nanotechnology has obvious advantages. I recognise that ice cream with many times less fat is an extraordinarily marketable commodity; I would certainly be very interested in that. Better packaging and materials, increased shelf life, the reduced use of active ingredients and agrochemicals; it seems to me perfectly reasonable to anticipate these and many other applications.

The 2004 report, which got off to a good start a debate that is beginning to flounder, suggested that,

“the UK Research Councils assemble an interdisciplinary centre … to undertake research into the toxicity, epidemiology, persistence and bioaccumulation of manufactured nanoparticles and nanotubes, to work on exposure pathways and to develop measurement methods”.

The then Government did not adopt this recommendation. They continued to fund research into nanotechnologies through the established channels of grants through Research Councils UK and government departments, usually in response mode but with publicly funded nanotechnologies research co-ordinated through the Nanotechnology Research Coordination Group. When that body started out in November 2005, it published a helpful report that identified 19 research objectives grouped into five areas—we are talking of all nanotechnologies here—one of which was human toxicology.

It is disappointing to find that Defra sponsored a report last year that reviewed how many of these research objectives had been fulfilled by the Nanotechnology Research Coordination Group. The answer, particularly on the issue of human toxicology, is that a substantial amount of work remains to be done. The Defra review states that there have been,

“no systematic studies on the potential of different kinds of nanoparticles to get into the blood, the lymph or the brain”.

Our report comments—rather restrainedly, I think:

“We find this conclusion worrying”.

The Medical Research Council was assigned responsibility for research objective 11, which was to undertake:

“Research to establish a clear understanding of the adsorption of nanoparticles via the lung, skin and gut and their distribution in the body … identifying potential target organs/tissues for toxicity assessment”.

The Defra review concluded that,

“a … largely un-researched area is ingestion as a route of exposure … Given the potential for this route to expose very large numbers of individuals … the lack of activity in this area is surprising”.

This time our report comments:

“We find this lack of progress extremely concerning”.

It is not as if we have not had warnings in the interim. In 2007 the Council for Science and Technology’s report also drew attention to the Government’s slow progress on health and safety research, and said that this was due to an overreliance by government on responsive mode funding rather than directed programmes by government departments to deliver the necessary research. That is logical, is it not? If you wait in responsive mode and there happen to be no research workers applying for research funding in this area, you will not get your gaps filled. You need a bit of direction occasionally. That simply has not happened, which is why there is concern.

I ask my noble friend the Minister not for more money—that would clearly be unreasonable—but simply for the considerable sums of money that are spent on nanotechnology research to be partially reallocated, even in small measure, so that the health and safety issues are adequately addressed. The amount of money that we are talking about is very small compared with the development of these new technologies.

In 2007-08 I chaired a working group of stakeholders charged with drafting a voluntary code on good practice for organisations involved in the supply chain for nanotechnologies. The group included research organisations such as the Royal Society through to retailers, trade unions, consumer groups, and of course companies interested in nanotechnologies. We produced a draft nano code that was accepted with a degree of enthusiasm by all the stakeholders. The repeated mantra in all this was “Transparency, accessibility and accountability”—you cannot repeat it too often. Never hide from the public any shortcomings in the scientific knowledge—there are always some. Never try to persuade the public that the risks are less than might otherwise be thought. Be honest. This is something that the Food Standards Agency got off to a good start with after so many food scares when the regulatory authority was the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food.

It is disappointing to find that this fundamental lesson does not appear to have been adopted by the food industry, either here or in America. The noble Lord, Lord Krebs, talked about the food industry not putting its head above the parapet. Somebody has to put their head above the parapet. I understand why the food industry would like a ringmaster—someone to co-ordinate the dialogue—but it is absolutely essential that such a dialogue takes place. It is essential that all stakeholders participate. It would be fine if the Food Standards Agency could be the ringmaster, but my main plea is that this public dialogue should be engaged in quickly.

18:31

[Baroness O'Neill of Bengarve]

My Lords, I, too, was privileged to serve on the Sub-Committee on Nanotechnologies and Food. Not being a scientist, I found it challenging. Being chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, it was also fun. With the excellent support that we received both from the Clerks and our specialist adviser, Professor Stephen Holgate, I think that I ended up understanding a certain amount about nanotechnology. What I think I understand very clearly is why this is an important topic, and one where the new Government will have reason to take action on various fronts.

The debate takes place at a moment that may be either awkward or advantageous—I am not sure which—but it is at the very least unplanned. The Select Committee’s report on nanotechnology and food addressed a world in which the Food Standards Agency was the UK’s lead body with responsibility for food standards and safety. The Government’s response to the Select Committee’s report is the response of the previous Government, who showed considerable confidence in the Food Standards Agency, which they asked to co-ordinate that response.

It is far from clear that this confidence is shared by the coalition Government. Over recent days there have been numerous reports that the Government plan to abolish or dismember the Food Standards Agency. Headlines have ranged from the Mirror’s rather trenchant:

“Food Standards Agency watchdog is chewed up by ConDems”,

to the Atlantic’s more political—indeed, conspiratorial —revelation:

“How the Food Lobby Killed Britain’s FDA”.

That is of course not a misprint, and it is inaccurate to think that the Food Standards Agency corresponds exactly to the Food and Drug Administration in the US.

Perhaps inevitably, some commentators have begun to wonder whether the Government are unsure which FSA they want to reform and which they want to abolish. We are tonight concerned only with the Food Standards Agency. The Government have indicated that they have not yet reached a decision on what might be done. The Minister confirmed that this afternoon in responding to a Question from the noble Lord, Lord Krebs. However, there is a widespread sense that the Food Standards Agency may be in some danger. The main question—which I hope the noble Earl can answer—is: how far do the Government plan to stand by a response that is not of their making? Which commitments do the new Government seek to shed and which do they seek to strengthen? The coalition Government should welcome many of the committee’s recommendations and endorse much of the previous Government’s response. This was, after all, a report about cutting-edge research, emerging technologies and their application in a domain of daily concern to everyone. It is not an area from which any Government would wish to bow out.

The questions that are raised by the introduction of new technologies—in particular very novel technologies that are not well understood—into food processing link basic and applied scientific research, knowledge transfer, innovation in manufacturing, the fate of a very large part of the British economy and the daily consumption of food by each one of us. The human and economic consequences of getting matters wrong could be large, ranging from failure to adopt food technologies that may be useful for human health, to failure to co-ordinate work on the scientific basis of nanotechnologies, to failure to build on the achievements of UK scientists, to a considerable loss of competitive advantage by the UK food processing industry, not to mention the possibility of failure to adjust regulation to focus accurately on the risk assessment that will be needed.

I am no friend of excessive regulation, and like many who have run a small institution, I know its costs all too well. However, there are cases in which laissez-faire and market solutions will not work. Public health is a public good, often not achievable by the interplay of market forces and consumer choice alone. The long-running battle between the FSA and the food industry over labelling illustrates—if it illustrates nothing else—that there are those in the food industry who prefer to communicate, or at least pretend to communicate, in ways that demonstrably are not understood by many consumers and indeed may not be comprehensible to many consumers. Mere labelling will not be enough to secure public acceptance of food products containing nanoparticles, despite the fact that nanoparticles are found in many naturally occurring products, including traditional foods—and the sub-committee was told that ricotta cheese contains many of them. We need a more thoughtful approach.

I have mentioned some examples of matters that bear on success or failure in the use of nanotechnologies, in particular in the food industry, where, it seems to me, only Government and regulatory action can hope to be effective either in protecting consumers or in supporting the British food industry. First, there is the matter of securing agreement, including international agreement, on definitions. The noble Lord, Lords Krebs, has already mentioned this topic with his great expertise. There are those who seek to define nanoparticles simply in terms of their dimensions. Nanoparticles, they propose, should be defined as particles of which at least one dimension falls below an intrinsically arbitrary threshold of 100 nanometres. However, the reason why some nanoparticles are of interest to the food industry, as they are to other industries, is not simply that they are very small, intriguing as that may be, but that some, though not all, particles at nanoscale have functionally distinctive properties, so may offer nutritional or commercial advantages, though may also require additional risk assessment. Will the Government ensure that the regulatory definition of nanomaterials that must be built into the formulation of any requirements for additional risk assessment is functional and not merely metric? Will they work towards trying to ensure that EU regulation also settles on a functional and not a merely metric definition?

Secondly, there is the matter of ensuring that communication by companies to consumers is adequate. There has been a great deal of emphasis on communication by labelling. But I think that we all know that communication is genuine only where it is actually understood by the relevant audiences—in this case consumers. Transparency by itself is never enough. It is not enough because the fact that information is made available does not ensure that it will be noted, understood or taken into account by relevant audiences. Excessive reliance on consumer choice—when that choice is supposedly informed only by incomprehensible data delivered in the smallest print, on colourful packaging designed to emphasise other, more glorious matters—is not genuine communication. Only government can ensure that food marketing achieves genuine rather than pretended communication with consumers.

There are a number of important audiences for genuine communication in this area. There is the matter of ensuring that communication between companies about research at a precompetitive stage supports, rather than suppresses, the understanding of important information. There is the matter of ensuring that communication by food companies with the wider public is adequate. Possibly the most worrying finding of the sub-committee, alluded to by both previous speakers, is that food companies appear to be secretive about the research that they are conducting. They do not, as far as we could discover, have in place modes of exchanging information on precompetitive matters, and they do not foster public engagement.

The sub-committee was well aware that this secrecy may reflect awareness of the problems created just over a decade ago by a non-UK company when it trumpeted the advantages of its products incorporating the then new technology of genetic modification into plant varieties without adequate communication with, and in particular without listening to, the public. We all know the disaster that resulted for UK and EU plant-breeding companies. We all know that we now live in a bubble in which we pretend that the foods we eat contain nothing that is genetically modified—except of course by traditional methods such as evolution and selective breeding of animals and plants—although non-EU countries have adopted many of the genetically modified crop varieties without harm and to their advantage. But the way to avert another disaster for another British industry is not to be economical with communication about research on products that incorporate engineered particles at the nano scale. What will government do to seek better communication among companies and between companies and the wider public, with a view to fostering an effective and mature discussion of the real issues that need to be addressed if engineered particles at the nano scale are to be incorporated into our food?

18:41

[Lord Crickhowell]

My Lords, I, too, served on the sub-committee, which was admirably chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Krebs. His presentation of the sub-committee’s work was equally admirable, comprehensive and clear, and there is no need for me to do more than emphasise the importance of a small number of our recommendations. At the outset, I should express my appreciation of the contribution made by our Clerk, Anthony Willott, and our advisers, Professor Stephen Holgate and Rachel Newton. We could not have begun to do the job without their wonderful support.

This is the second debate within a couple of weeks on a report of a Select Committee where the Government’s response is that of the previous Government, not the coalition. I will press the points made by the noble Baroness who has just spoken about the need for the Minister, my noble friend who is to wind up this debate, to clarify by how far the present Government agree with their predecessors or indicate if there are significant differences.

I knew absolutely nothing about nanotechnologies until at a Royal Society soirée I visited a presentation on the subject by Cardiff University. When I introduced myself as the university’s former president, I was given some basic tuition and a rather magnificent rule that I am now holding, which helped clarify for me the scale of nanospace. On the left, I see metres, stretching through millimetres, micrometres, nanometres to picometres. As the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, indicated, there is also the atom, and I could add DNA somewhere in what is described as nanospace. I was also shown a picture of a well known Roman goblet which changes colour—an effect apparently caused by natural particles of nano size. In that way, I learnt that nanoparticles may not be the creation of brilliant or, as is sometimes implied, mad scientists, but can be a natural phenomenon. Quite early on in the committee’s study of the subject, we discovered that nanomaterials in food were not entirely a new event. Ricotta cheese has already been mentioned, as has the fact that chocolate and ice cream, as the result of the manufacturing process, usually contain nanomaterial.

However, scientists are now able to manipulate matter at the nano scale—a 1,000 millionth of a metre—so that it can exhibit new and unusual properties. This work may produce real benefits for consumers and manufacturers. We have heard some of them, such as better packaging, so food is fresher and lasts longer, and food with unaltered taste but lower fat, salt and sugar levels. Those are real possibilities. As the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, pointed out, there may be fertilisers that can be applied in smaller quantities—of real advantage to agriculture and the environment. The noble Lord explained that we decided to concentrate on food. Some of us were not entirely happy about this because health products, beauty products, sun creams and so on may all have similar consequences if misused. A number of the recommendations we make will need to be applied in due course to those kinds of materials.

Having accepted the potential benefits, I comment briefly on the possible risks and how we deal with them. We have heard that nanotechnologies may present new risks. They require risk assessment and regulation, and that is not an entirely straightforward process. Like many members of the committee, I was disturbed to hear of the limited amount of research looking at the toxicological impact of nanomaterials, particularly in the gut and, via the gut, into the bloodstream, nervous system and brain. Bluntly, we were not impressed by the evidence we received on the subject from the research councils. There are encouraging words in the previous Government’s response to our recommendations 5 and 6. The research councils’ sign-post notices have been issued, which apparently direct people in the right direction. A grant has been provided by NERC for work at the University of Birmingham. The research councils have carried out an independent evaluation of their nanoscience portfolio—I do not think it is a big portfolio so the evaluation cannot have taken them long. The Health Protection Agency has launched its National Nanotoxicology Research Centre at Chiltern and the Food Standards Agency has commissioned two projects. However, my understanding is that little additional research has been generated by these initiatives at this stage.

We need a clear statement from the Government about what is being done about proactive forms of funding for research and within the EU to ensure that member states effectively co-ordinate their research. My honourable friend David Willetts, giving evidence to the Science and Technology Committee earlier this afternoon, said that in British universities and research institutions there were a large number of small nanoprojects without any effective assessment of whether they added anything to the totality of research. We do not want something like that also happening in the European context, where it may well be that other countries are undertaking serious and valuable work on the subject.

Mention of the EU takes me to our recommendations 17 and 18, which have not been referred to in the debate, on the REACH regulations covering chemicals. I served on an earlier Lords committee on the introduction of REACH. The Government’s response recognises that some aspects of REACH were not designed with nanomaterials in mind. The committee was particularly concerned that the one-tonne threshold for considering the potential toxic effect of substances under the REACH regulations was not appropriate for nanomaterials. I do not get the impression that the necessary revisions are being pursued with adequate urgency. I welcome the fact that, alongside REACH registration, the previous Government announced that they intended to develop a scheme for the collection of information on both nanomaterials and products containing nanomaterials that are available in the UK. As this was described as a bottom-up approach, which I understand is exactly what the coalition Government favour in so many fields, I hope that the Minister will be able to confirm that that activity will be pursued by the new Government.

Finally, I say how strongly we felt—this has been said by other noble Lords—about the importance of the industry being open about what it is doing and positive in its communication with the public. The evidence that we received was depressing. Large firms that should have learnt lessons from the GM disaster, for a variety of reasons, seemed to be continuing down the route that led to the disaster. If they do not trust the public, the public will not trust them. The New Scientist, in May, contained a report that stated that a Unilever spokesperson,

“won't say what nanofoods Unilever is looking into. Two other food multinationals, Kraft and Nestle, declined to talk about their research in the area at all”.

Nothing seems to have changed.

My honourable friend David Willetts, the science Minister who gave evidence earlier today to the Science and Technology Committee, made an interesting observation in his recent speech delivered to the Royal Institution. He was not talking about nanotechnology but synthetic biology. He said:

“The UK Research Councils had the foresight to hold a public dialogue about ramifications of synthetic biology ahead of Craig Venter developing the first cell controlled by synthetic DNA. This dialogue showed that there is conditional public support for synthetic biology. There is great enthusiasm for the possibilities associated with this field, but also fears about controlling it and the potential for misuse”.

Those words could be applied exactly to nanotechnology and the evidence we received from Which? confirmed it. My honourable friend went on to say that he was struck by a comment from a participant in the discussion on synthetic biology who said:

“Why do they want to do it? … Is it because they will be the first person to do it? Is it because they just can't wait? What are they going to gain from it? … The fact that you can take something that’s natural and produce fuel, great—but what is the bad side of it? What else is it going to do?”.

My honourable friend continued:

“Synthetic biology must not go the way of GM. It must retain public trust”.

I would add that nanotechnology must not go the way of GM; it, too, must obtain public trust. I hope that that message will be listened to by those in industry in this country and indeed abroad. If nothing else is achieved by this report but they listen and become more open and transparent, then our work will certainly have been well worth while.

18:55

[Lord Methuen]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, for initiating this debate and for his excellent chairmanship of the sub-committee. I also thank our secretariat and special adviser for all they did to support us in producing the report.

It was a very interesting inquiry exploring a highly innovative area in which comparatively little research seems to have been carried out. There is a lot going on underground, one might say. We deliberately concentrated on the food industry, excluding areas such as cosmetics and skin protection products.

It was quite obvious that the commercial sensitivity of such research as is being carried out in this field by various firms in the food industry has stifled the exchange of data between the organisations involved. It is to be hoped that the Nanotechnology Knowledge Transfer Network and the Nanotechnology Industries Association will be able to encourage the interchange of such information, particularly in view of the many unknowns in the areas of toxicity and intestinal effects.

As has been said by other noble Lords, the use of nanotechnology in the food and drink industry offers all sorts of exciting possibilities in improving diet, reducing the intake of salt, sugar and other things of that nature, combating obesity, and finding better and longer-term storage options for food due to improved and perhaps intelligent food contact materials and packaging.

The previous Government’s response to our report was generally one of acceptance, and it is to be hoped that this new Administration will similarly accept our recommendations. I note that the Food Standards Agency has been reported as being disbanded but I hope that, as the earlier debate at Question Time indicated, that will not be so. If it is disbanded, I wonder what will happen to the excellent Food and Environment Research Agency near York that gave us so much useful information in its evidence.

One of the key problems in this field of nanotechnology is definition, as has been said by other speakers, and providing an adequate regulatory framework at both domestic and EU levels. The figure of 100 nanometres is often used but there is nothing magic about this number. The definition should be based on a combination of an order of magnitude of less than 1,000 nanometres and the reactivity of the material concerned. It was emphasised to us that the material may be “nano” in only one or more dimensions, depending on whether it is a film, a sheet—for example, food contact material—a particle or even a nanotube.

As I said earlier, the committee was particularly concerned about toxicity issues. I was pleased to note in the government response that both the EPSRC and the MRC are seeking research bids in this area and that the research councils have carried out an independent review of their nanoscience portfolio. One can only hope that the current funding cuts will not result in a diminution of the research effort that is required.

I am still concerned that not enough is known about the impact of nanoparticles in the gut, including the long-term consequences of their ingestion into the body, and on foetal growth. I am glad to see that the Health Protection Agency has launched a National Nanotoxicology Research Centre to undertake studies of what is absorbed through the gut. There needs to be co-ordination with EU initiatives across the whole breadth of this and the research council portfolio to ensure we do not duplicate work being carried out in other member states.

I am also concerned about the impacts on the human food chain due to the possible use of nanoparticles in agriculture, animal feedstuffs, and pesticides and herbicides. Obviously this is an area where Defra is probably more involved than the FSA.

One of the most important issues in front of the committee was the necessity of keeping the public aware of the advent of these developments in food production so as to avoid another publicity fiasco such as occurred with GM crops. There is at present a very low public perception and understanding of nanotechnology as applied to the food people eat. It is essential that manufacturers are open and transparent in the purpose of their research and development aims, and they must bring to the fore the benefits for the public that may be obtained by the use of this technology in food production, packaging and shelf life.

It has been an interesting debate and I hope the Government will be able to support the mostly positive response we had from the previous Administration.

19:01

[Lord Hunt of Chesterton]

My Lords, we should give thanks to the Science and Technology Sub-Committee on Nanotechnologies and Food and to its excellent chairman, the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, who was the most effective and communicative chairman of the Food Standards Agency in its founding. The committee clearly did a good job, as one can see from the previous Government’s response. However, in their response, and that of the current Government, one does not hear many promises about resources. We shall look to hear about that from the Minister.

As other noble Lords have mentioned, the natural world is full of small particles essential for the physical state of the atmosphere, the oceans and the processes in the Earth. But as with smoke, asbestos and traffic, human activities also produce particles ranging down to the scale of molecules and the wavelength of light. As the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, said, it is the tiny gold particles in red glass that make it look red—the thesis of my grandfather, by the way.

These nanoparticles are constrained within engineering processes and are more or less under control, but of course they are less constrained as they move through the environment and living tissue. Noble Lords might like to know that probably the first parliamentary study of nanotechnology took place on Clapham Common in 1760, when Benjamin Franklin took a party of six parliamentarians to study how an extremely thin monomolecular layer of oil can damp water waves. This interest was for calming waves in His Majesty’s dockyards at that time—everything was to do with His Majesty’s dockyards—but this continues to be a problem, as we have been seeing more recently.

The potential of nanoparticles is very considerable, from electronics to catalysts and, perhaps most importantly for the whole world, the extraordinary possibility of their use at a molecular or nano level for water purification and desalination. There are some groups working on this in the UK at Aberdeen, and MIT is involved. This is potentially an enormous boon to the poorest communities in the world. Broadly speaking, clean water might come under the category of food—it probably does for these people.

The other important point is for agriculture. Again, as the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, said, it is not just that we can use pesticides more efficiently—currently only 20 per cent get into the crop and 80 per cent go down the rivers—but this technology may be a big boon for agriculture.

However, the benefits of this technology have to be balanced with the health and environmental effects, both for the public and for workers. Some workers may have high exposure, and it is very important that this dimension is not forgotten. I notice that there was no actual evidence from the trade unions to this working group, but this is very important. Of course, exposure in industry is a lot better than it used to be. I have never been so drunk in my life as when I worked with ICI and we had trichloroethylene coming out of the plant as we filled up the bolts—one could get very drunk on that. But that is the older kind of industry; now we have much more sophisticated methods.

Public fears can easily be aroused, as we saw with GMOs and asbestos, but public attitudes are based on a delicate balance of perception of advantage and concern about risks. This balance can be influenced by public bodies and collaboration between the political world and scientists working together. Internationally, the UK has often been in the lead in these delicate areas of risk and advantage. The committee addressed all these issues and made sensible institutional and policy recommendations to deal with research, government regulations, industry and international co-operation. However, some of the recommendations have been made before, as we have seen in previous House of Lords reports on science-related issues.

The research on nanoscience and nanotechnology is done largely by industry, research councils, government departments and agencies—some of them using contractors or research institutes—and of course by the EU. This report, as we have seen previously, points to how research councils sponsor research but often, rightly, have limited capability and direction to respond to governmental, societal or industrial needs, as the noble Earl, Lord Selborne, emphasised. That is often not their central objective, which is generally fundamental and open science leading to publication.

In the 1990s, a larger proportion of the science budget was spent by government departments on projects that had direct relevance to policy, and this changed particularly under the emphasis of the noble Lord, Lord Sainsbury. As I know from experience of working on GMO dispersion for a government department, the results were then published. If the government department sponsors work, that does not then lead to non-publication. Although government agencies make use of research councils’ research and data, they cannot direct them, which is the point made in the committee’s report and by other noble Lords.

Another aspect concerns toxicological research and the fact that it needs to be directed—that is at paragraph 4.58. Another advantage of directed and politically sensitive research being funded and directed by government departments is that the public communication and consultation could be done professionally and with political understanding, which is important in this area. The recommendations in the report for public bodies need to be supported, and a positive role is needed to overcome the concerns of scientists who are very cautious. I talked to nanotech scientists, funded by research councils, before the debate, and learnt that they are extremely sensitive about commenting publicly in any way about the applications of their work. So if scientists are to avoid being involved in debacles such as we have seen with GMO and Climategate, they need to find some form and methods of working with government to ensure that they can stick to their fundamentals and publish openly, and that the more tricky, applied aspects are handled more by government and agencies which are familiar with that aspect.

That brings me back to the point that if government departments needed funding or the capacity to do that kind of work, they could apply the openly published science for their own purposes. However, there is a difference in the approach of the United States. There, government agencies fund applications to turn the openly published science into useful products. Remarkably, they will look all around the world for their science, including papers by JCR Hunt. As I know from experience, a government department there will say, “Goodness me, this is an interesting paper. Let’s fund somebody in America to set up a company and do something with it”. That does not happen in the UK. It must therefore be remembered that 90 per cent of the research is done outside the UK. It is not the job of research councils to review the research being done around the world—that should surely be the job of technically able groups in the government departments. The UK Technology Strategy Board has the same aim of developing UK technology, but it requires quite a large financial hurdle, often too large for smaller companies to work.

Another crucial institutional aspect referred to in the report is the co-ordination with research in the European Union. It is strong where there is very strong research, and the EU is leading globally on regulations. Also, EU research is working towards commercial projects and setting up new European-wide standards. Our concern, as has been expressed today, is that even our civil servants and a recent European Commissioner on these Benches have commented privately that the UK does less well than others in taking a strategic view of that EU research and driving research in the direction of the UK's interests in technology. That is essential. As new European programmes have been established for FP8, it is important that we should take a more strategic view. Of course, the research councils could help there.

The other point made is that there is concern that the work being done by our research councils is not co-ordinated with research being done in other national research councils in the rest of Europe. I used to be a chairman of a committee in NERC under the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, and I used to keep badgering colleagues in NERC to find out what was going on in exactly the same area in the other research councils. They did not know their names or their telephone numbers. A lot more can still be done in that respect. It is as if in the United States you had a research policy in California, in Arizona and in Illinois all doing different things and not co-ordinating. We must do better. The European Science Foundation has helped in that regard, but there is a long way to go and the committee has pointed that out.

We look forward to the Government's response. I particularly look forward to their response about public information. I note the comments made by other noble Lords about the fact that some major companies involved in the area are not particularly open. Without naming names, I spoke to the advertising agency for one of the major companies in this area. The advertising agency person told me that their advice to that major company was not under any circumstances to mention the environment or any of their products in that context. That is the situation, and we must move away from it.

Once again I thank the committee for its report, and I look forward to the Government's response.

19:11

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe)]

My Lords, this has been an extremely useful debate. I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, and his fellow committee members on their excellent report.

Nanotechnology is a fascinating new field of science. However, it can also be difficult for the lay person—I include myself in that category—to grasp its implications, given its potentially wide range of applications and the difficulty of visualising what it is and how it works. That makes the committee's achievement all the more impressive. It has sifted through a great deal of written and oral evidence to produce a readable and extremely interesting report—one that, I understand, has already been widely cited as a source of authority.

I followed with great interest all the contributions made during the debate, and I will return to some of the specific points raised in a few moments. Nanotechnologies and nanomaterials are clearly important issues for the Government. As I hope noble Lords will understand, we are still in the process of formulating our detailed policies in this area. As the House may know, the previous Government published a UK nanotechnologies strategy this March. Current Ministers, including me, will carefully consider the degree to which we will continue with that strategy. The report of the Science and Technology Committee makes a number of sound and sensible recommendations. For the reasons that I have just given, it would be premature for me to give a formal response on behalf of the Government on all of them. However, the majority of the recommendations fall within the remit of the Food Standards Agency, whose advice remains unchanged. Indeed, work is already under way within the agency to implement relevant recommendations. I shall say more about that in a moment.

My noble friend Lord Selborne speculated about the glittering prizes that may be attained in the future from this technology. The Government keep an open mind about the likely benefits of the use of nanotechnologies and nanomaterials in food. Proponents, as we have heard, point to a range of potential benefits such as improved packaging, better delivery of vitamins, lower-fat foods that have improved taste and texture, and reductions in food spoilage and food-borne disease. While all this sounds promising, the products themselves are very much at the research and development stage, and it remains to be seen how many will actually bear fruit commercially. However, many noble Lords have pointed out that what is clear, and what history tells us, is that unless consumers have full confidence in the safety of the end products, the benefits from innovation will be lost. This requires a combination of informed consumers and an appropriate, proportionate and fully transparent system of regulation.

The report addresses the need for better communication with the public about nanotechnologies in food. Members of the public rightly expect to have access to accurate and balanced information about issues that affect them and their families. This is particularly the case in relation to food, and the Food Standards Agency will work to ensure that information about nanotechnologies is made available in easily accessible ways.

The committee emphasised the importance of transparency. Of course the Government must play their part, but industry must also be open about the nanotechnology-enabled products that are being developed and used. The noble Lord, Lord Krebs, was absolutely right to point out that we know from previous experience with genetically modified foods that innovation cannot be forced on an unwilling or sceptical public. It is therefore in everyone’s interest to promote consumer confidence. This is particularly the case if, as some claim, nanotechnologies can help to tackle major challenges such as healthy eating and waste reduction.

The noble Lord, Lord Krebs, asked what the Government would do to ensure that the food industry is more transparent about its research on nanotechnologies, a question that was echoed by my noble friend Lord Selborne. The Food Standards Agency will work with industry and other stakeholders to ensure that as much information as possible is shared. That will be done, for example, by setting up a nanofoods stakeholder group and through a public list of products containing nanomaterials. Where I hesitate is over the committee’s recommendation of a mandatory reporting system for food products that are under development. As I have indicated, the Government have not agreed their detailed strategy on nanotechnology in general, or on the fine detail of the committee’s recommendations, but I could not but be struck by the arguments advanced by the Food Standards Agency in the previous Government’s response to the report: namely, that mandatory reporting could be counterproductive as it could well have the effect of driving research out of the UK, making it even more difficult to keep abreast of developments. There could be other and less dirigiste ways of achieving the committee’s aims in this area.

In answer to the direct question posed by the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, the noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill, and my noble friend Lord Methuen, I can only repeat what I said earlier in the day about the Food Standards Agency. A robust regulatory function will continue to be delivered through the agency. The Government fully recognise the important role that the agency plays, but we are examining whether some—I emphasise the word “some”—of the functions of the FSA could more sensibly and cost-effectively sit elsewhere. But again, as I indicated earlier, no decisions about that have been taken.

There is a need to co-ordinate and collect information, and I can tell my noble friend Lord Crickhowell that the Food Standards Agency is in the process of setting up a nanofoods stakeholder group, as recommended by the Select Committee, and will consult this group before establishing a register of foods that are currently being manufactured with the use of nanotechnologies later this year.

My noble friend asked about REACH. As far as I am aware, there is no further news to report. However, I will gladly ensure that he is kept informed of any developments.

Food products in the UK must meet the highest safety standards. As the committee concludes, different nanotechnologies raise different questions and so evaluation needs to be conducted on a case-by-case basis. For example, low fat mayonnaise made with a nanoemulsion of oil and water requires a different approach from insoluble nanoparticles of silver in a food supplement or embedded in food packaging.

The existing regulatory system for food ingredients provides a good level of control over new nanomaterials. The legislation will evolve, as it should, and I can say to the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, that the committee’s recommendations about clarifying the legal position of nanomaterials and drawing up appropriate definitions will be taken forward in the relevant fora in Brussels. The aim must be to provide clarity and safeguards against the introduction of new or altered food ingredients that have not undergone an independent safety assessment. This is important. In fact it has already happened in the area of food additives, and other revisions are under way in novel foods and food contact materials.

The noble Baroness, Lady O’ Neill, urged the Government to ensure that regulation should be based on functionality and not only on size. The point is well made and the Government will take it fully into account in our discussions in Brussels. In fact, recent changes to legislation on food additives are not tied to a particular size threshold but to changes in properties due to any change in particle size.

The committee’s report is one of several that highlight the gaps in our knowledge of nanomaterials. There is clearly a need to fill these gaps in order to assess and manage any potential risks effectively. We need to be able to ask the right questions and to draw the right conclusions from the data. The work that is currently under way, with funding from government departments and the research councils, will help to fill these gaps. In that context it is important to note that the various funding bodies do not operate in isolation but collaborate whenever possible. They also form part of a cross-government nanotechnologies research strategy group. This group has recently updated its list of research priorities, which will help to direct research funds in an effective way.

The noble Lord, Lord Krebs, asked specifically about the committee’s concerns relating to the proposed definition of engineered nanomaterial in the amended novel foods regulation proposal. I have touched on this already but I should add that the proposal for an updated EU regulation on novel foods is still under discussion. If a definition is adopted, then the Food Standards Agency will work with the Commission and other member states in monitoring and updating the definition to take account of technical advances and to reflect any international developments.

On the issue of risk assessment, the European Food Safety Authority is producing a guidance document for risk assessment of nanomaterials which will provide practical recommendations on how to assess applications made by industry for the use of engineered nanomaterials. This would apply to food additives, enzymes, flavourings, food contact materials, novel foods, food supplements, feed additives and pesticides. A first draft is due to be completed by July 2010 and will be subject to public consultation before it is finalised.

The noble Lord, Lord Krebs, mentioned that two products are known to be on the UK market. This was true in 2009 but I understand that one product became outlawed in January this year with changes to the law on food supplements.

My noble friends Lord Crickhowell and Lord Selborne questioned whether the research councils were sufficiently proactive in tackling the knowledge gaps in relation to the safety of nanomaterials. The relevant research councils have all taken measures to stimulate research into the safety of nanomaterials. A number of projects have been funded in recent years and these efforts are being intensified. For example, a programme on environmental exposures and human health has been launched jointly by the MRC and the Natural Environment Research Council working with the Department for Health and Defra. The programme specifically highlights nano-scale materials as an area of interest. It will fund four to six strategic collaborative consortiums to a value of £8 million to £10 million. The research proposals are currently under review and it is anticipated that the grants will be awarded in August 2010.

My noble friend Lord Selborne emphasised the importance of better research co-ordination to address gaps in knowledge and, as I have indicated, the cross-government research group has recently updated its priorities for nanotechnology research. A list of priorities was published after the committee report in March 2010 and provides a new focus for publicly funded research to fill the gaps that we fully acknowledge.

My noble friend Lord Crickhowell asked about progress on international collaboration of research. Government officials continue to work with the OECD programme on the safety of manufactured nanomaterials and I am informed that the underpinning research that has been commissioned with the help of the research councils is progressing well. At EU level the Technology Strategy Board is exploring further interactions with EU counterparts through involvement in a new research network focusing on the safe implementation of innovative nanotechnologies.

We have had a most valuable and constructive debate and I will take away the many points made. In conclusion, I emphasise the Government’s commitment to fostering a responsible attitude towards innovation and in creating the space for new developments, such as nanotechnologies, while ensuring the right level of regulatory oversight. Many have spoken of the importance of transparency. There is much that the Government can do to help the UK to benefit from innovation but none of this will matter if the public are not properly informed or are suspicious of the motives of those who seek to market new and innovative products. That underlines the critical role of transparency if the benefits of nanotechnology are to be realised. The Government, industry and the research community must all play their part.

19:28

[Lord Krebs]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his response and other noble Lords who have taken part in this excellent debate. I do not propose to delay us for long but simply wish to note the positive response from the Minister, recognising that the coalition is still formulating its policy in certain areas. As it becomes clearer and the recommendations in our report are considered more extensively, I hope that I can remain in touch with the Minister and understand the full set of responses.

I note briefly a few points. I was very pleased to hear the Minister confirm a continuing role for the Food Standards Agency, that the regulatory issues that we addressed in Brussels are being taken forward, and that the activities of the research councils in commissioning research in this area seem to be moving ahead. The Minister also indicated the Government’s recognition of the importance of communication and he mentioned that the food industry sees its work at a very early R&D stage. In our opinion in the sub-committee, that was precisely the stage at which communication should start. If we wait until products are about to come on to the shelves it is too late. We are pleased to hear that the dialogue is being initiated under the aegis of the Food Standards Agency.

I thank noble Lords once again for contributions to the debate.

Motion agreed.

Canterbury City Council Bill

Tuesday 13th July 2010 Lords Chamber

First Reading

The Bill was brought from the Commons, the declaration of the agent having been deposited in accordance with Private Business Standing Order 150B (Revival of Bills). The Bill was read a first time

Nottingham City Council Bill

Tuesday 13th July 2010 Lords Chamber

First Reading

The Bill was brought from the Commons, the declaration of the agent having been deposited in accordance with Private Business Standing Order 150B (Revival of Bills). The Bill was read a first time.

Statutory Instruments

Tuesday 13th July 2010 Lords Chamber

Message from the Commons

A message was brought from the Commons that they have appointed a Select Committee of six Members to join with the Committee appointed by the Lords as the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.

House adjourned at 7.30 pm.