Northern Ireland Troubles Bill: Armed Forces Recruitment and Retention
Al Carns Excerpts(1 day, 23 hours ago)
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James Cartlidge (South Suffolk) (Con)
(Urgent Question): To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will make a statement on the impact of the Northern Ireland Troubles Bill on armed forces recruitment and retention.
The Minister for the Armed Forces (Al Carns)
This Labour Government are committed to renewing the contract with those who serve, and our commitment is reflected in our actions. That is why we have given our armed forces the largest pay rise in 20 years, committed to invest £9 billion to fix forces homes, scrapped 100 out-of-date medical policies for entry standards, and created novel ways of entry including our new gap year scheme and a cyber direct entry pathway with its first cohort graduating in November. It is also why, at Christmas, this Government funded travel for up to 35,000 service personnel to be with their families over the festive period.
The Government’s actions are having an effect. On recruitment, inflow continues to improve and is up 13% this year compared with September 2024. Applications to join the armed forces and intakes to basic training both continue to remain high. On retention, under the Conservatives morale had been falling year on year, with more people leaving than joining; we have started to reverse that decline with an 8% reduction in outflow this year compared with September 2024.
The question refers to the impact of the troubles Bill. The Government have brought forward the troubles Bill to effectively and legally deal with the legacy of the troubles in Northern Ireland. The complexity of dealing with this issue is not lost on me. The reality is that the previous Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Act 2023 did not have unfaltering support, and we are focused on navigating a workable route through this incredibly emotive and difficult topic in a fair and proportionate manner.
The military cohorts most impacted by legacy processes are those at the very tip of the spear. There is no evidence to suggest that this Bill has had an impact on their recruitment or indeed retention. The House will understand that we do not comment on matters of special forces, but let me echo what the Defence Secretary has said directly to the community: we have your back. I am assured in my interactions with those in the command of, or serving in, our special forces that they continue to deliver at the very front edge of the nation’s effort to counter the threats that we and the UK face. I say to them: you have my support and this Government’s unequivocal support.
The Government owe all those who served in defence of peace during the troubles an immense debt of gratitude. We understand the immense psychological toll that legacy proceedings can have and the concerns of the veterans community. We are working closely with representatives of veterans and the armed forces community to understand their concerns and ensure that this Bill meets their need. But to link recruitment and retention with the Northern Ireland legacy Bill is incorrect.
James Cartlidge
Our legacy Act ensured that those who served bravely in Northern Ireland could sleep soundly in their beds at night, knowing that they would not be hauled before the courts for protecting all of us from terrorism decades ago. But when our Act was challenged in the courts, instead of appealing, Labour immediately caved and is now scrapping those protections. This will reopen cases, such as Loughgall, from 1987, when IRA members were shot while mounting a bomb attack on a police station, having fired first on the Army.
Loughgall involved 24 SAS soldiers, so it is no wonder that on 30 December, seven senior former SAS officers wrote an extraordinary letter stating:
“Commanders now hesitate, fearing years of litigation. Troops feel abandoned…This self-sabotage needs no foreign hand…In this Troubles Bill, the Government is complicit in this war on our Armed Forces.”
The Minister knows the operational importance of special forces as much as anyone. Does he recognise the huge hit to morale if cases like Loughgall are restarted because of the troubles Bill?
Of course, the Government will say that we need the troubles Bill to pursue unsolved IRA crimes, but as the Prime Minister’s own appointed Northern Ireland Veterans Commissioner David Johnstone warned last week, soldiers may be dragged before the courts, but IRA terrorists walk free because the weapons they used were decommissioned without forensic testing. Was the commissioner not right to say that veterans are treated “worse than terrorists”? Furthermore, last October the Government said that the troubles Bill would contain protections specifically for veterans. Will the Minister confirm that all the protections in the Bill also apply to terrorists?
In November, eight retired four-star generals and an air chief marshal described the troubles Bill as a
“direct threat to national security”.
The letter from seven former SAS officers said that they
“are not asking for immunity; they simply want fair procedures and decisive political leadership”.
With the threats that we face and the need to maximise recruitment and retention, can the Minister show decisive political leadership of his own and scrap the troubles Bill?
Al Carns
As the shadow Defence Secretary has raised a question about recruitment and retention, it is important that we look at the record of his own Government. Military morale fell to record lows under his Government, with just four in 10 personnel in the UK armed forces satisfied with service life; satisfaction fell from 60% to 40% in 2024. Is that surprising when there were real-terms pay cuts in nine out of the 14 years that the Conservatives were in power and over 13,000 housing complaints in a single year? I will not be lectured by the hon. Gentleman on this issue.
I would suggest that to mention that I have an insight into the operational imperative of our forces, as the tip of the spear, is a slight underestimation. I would argue that there are several people in this House who would understand that, including one who is stood here and another on the Opposition Benches. We have been left with a mess and our Northern Ireland veterans were in a legal wild west because of what the Conservatives did with the last legacy Act. No party in Northern Ireland agreed with that Act or supported it, so we had to sort that out—this Government will not allow that situation to continue.
Let me be very clear: we are listening. We have spoken to the Royal British Legion and other associations. I speak to military cohorts on a weekly, if not daily, basis and I speak to the Northern Ireland Veterans Commissioner almost every day. We are working collaboratively and collectively to ensure that the Bill is fit for purpose, that it protects the individuals, that the process does not become the punishment for those individuals, and that we do not allow any terrorist organisation to rewrite history through the courts.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)
I call the Chair of the Defence Committee.
Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi (Slough) (Lab)
It is clear that the previous solution, the Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Act 2023, was opposed by all the political parties in Northern Ireland. It was found to be unlawful by our courts, and therefore it needed to be replaced. It is also clear that the solution to this complex issue must provide justice, be legal, and ensure that our veterans feel that they have been protected and their service has been celebrated. Can the Minister confirm that nobody who perpetrated terrorist atrocities during the troubles will be given immunity? How exactly will the Government protect veterans from repeated investigations?
Al Carns
I thank my hon. Friend for his comments. The reality is that the last Act was opposed by every part of the Northern Ireland system, groups across the military and civilians in Northern Ireland. It left our veterans in a legal wild west. The honest answer is that our military will always adhere to the law, and to the highest levels of the law. The new Bill allows us to protect this cohort, so that the legal process does not become a punishment, and importantly ensures that individuals cannot rewrite history. For the first time, we will have protections in place to support our veterans, and we will protect them from repeated investigations. There will be a legal duty to consider our veterans’ welfare, and we will ensure that no veteran has to attend proceedings or go to Northern Ireland; they can give evidence from home. These protections for our veterans have been designed by veterans, through discussions with me and various people across the Ministry of Defence.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)
I call the Liberal Democrat spokesperson.
James MacCleary (Lewes) (LD)
The Liberal Democrats are clear that the Conservatives’ Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Act 2023 failed victims, survivors and veterans alike by removing legal avenues to justice and eroding public trust. Elements of the Government’s new Bill are welcome, particularly the desire to move towards reconciliation and information recovery, but those aims cannot come at the expense of justice and fairness, or the rights of those who served. Our concern is not to shield wrongdoing; it is to ensure fairness for those who acted within the law as it stood at the time. Veterans must not be left exposed to uncertainty or retrospective judgment, and without clear legal protection.
Recruitment and retention is already an acknowledged challenge for our armed forces. Given the flaws in the Bill, an impact in this area could only further the case against it. What steps is the Minister taking to protect personnel who served during the troubles who followed the laws of the day? Given the extreme concern across the armed forces community about the impact that this legislation could have, will he consider halting the Bill, and replacing it with one that puts veterans at its heart?
Al Carns
I have been really clear: I have been working with veterans across the whole UK, with Northern Ireland and with the commissioners to ensure that the protections that we put in place are written into legislation and are well thought-through, so that the process does not become the punishment. People have said in Northern Ireland that the prospects of prosecution are vanishingly small. We must also ensure that other groups, such as families who lost loved ones in the troubles, get truth, reconciliation and justice, but in doing so, we must absolutely protect our veterans. We will put six protections in place; we will get five of them straight into the Bill, and written into law. We are working through the sixth one, a protocol to ensure no cold calling. It will ensure that anybody who is required to give evidence remotely, rather than by going to Northern Ireland, is engaged with by either the MOD or a regimental association. The main aim of involving our veterans was for them to help me articulate how we can stop this process from being wielded as a punishment against those who served our country so valiantly and honourably in Northern Ireland.
Alex Ballinger (Halesowen) (Lab)
The Minister has been too modest; he mentioned the September figures for the increase in recruitment, but the December figures were released just a couple of days ago, and they show a 20% increase in recruitment to the armed forces over the last year. Some 2,170 additional personnel were recruited in the year before. Despite the accusations from the Conservatives, might that be because of the two above-inflation pay rises that this Government have granted our personnel? Might it be because of the £9 billion increase for armed forces housing, after it was left in a decrepit state by the last Government? Might it be because of the 2.6% of GDP that we are investing in the military? That figure was never reached in the 14 years of the last Conservative Government.
Al Carns
I thank my hon. Friend for his list. This Government have come into power and put in place a very clear, concise programme to increase recruitment and retention. There is a list: there is the armed forces discovery scheme, zig-zag careers, and the cyber direct entry scheme; the first cohort graduated in November ’25. We are scrapping a huge amount of red tape left by the last Government. If somebody had athlete’s foot as a child, they could not join the military, and people needed multiple sets of medical records. That was ridiculous. We also have financial retention incentives. [Interruption.] Individuals on the Conservative Benches can say that they know, but they did nothing about it; I lived it. We have done a single living accommodation review, and we have a Christmas travel payment. [Interruption.] There are great comments coming from the Opposition, but they did nothing about it. We have done it, and as a result we see a 13% increase in recruitment, and a reduction in outflow by 8% for the first time in 14 years.
Lincoln Jopp (Spelthorne) (Con)
As the shadow Defence Secretary was reading out the letter from the squadron leaders and warrant officers that was published over the Christmas break, I looked across the Chamber, and was very surprised to see the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland and two Defence Ministers shaking their head. We have had feedback from numerous generals, squadron commanders and warrant officers, so can I just understand where the Minister is coming from? Why does he think he is right and they are wrong?
Al Carns
I fully respect the hon. and gallant Member; he has experience from Northern Ireland during the troubles. I served in Northern Ireland in 2003, after the troubles. We absolutely respect those individuals’ views; we also respect the statistics on those who are currently serving, which we have looked through in the Ministry of Defence. I would welcome a discussion with many of the individuals who the hon. and gallant Member mentioned. Since some of the articles came out in the press, I have had discussions, multiple times, with several of them. We need to work together to make sure they are comfortable with the Bill, and we are doing so. On top of that, we have spoken to the Royal British Legion and other veterans, but when we come down to the common denominator, the statistics show that there is not a recruitment and retention issue caused by the Northern Ireland legacy Bill. As Members well know, the moral, physical and conceptual components are critical to fighting power, but in some cases, the conceptual and moral components are one. We must ensure that the Bill protects veterans going forward, which is what I will do. We will protect the moral component.
Peter Swallow (Bracknell) (Lab)
Will my hon. and gallant Friend take this opportunity to welcome the 156 new recruits who started last week at the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst in my constituency? Those new recruits put the academy well on track to meet its recruitment targets for this year.
Al Carns
I thank my hon. Friend for making that point. In this role and in my last role, I have visited Sandhurst several times; it is the best leadership academy in the country, and its “Serve to lead” motto is absolutely essential. I am sure that the 156 cadets who have just started will progress and graduate with flying colours. I look forward to them serving in the military, and enjoying their service throughout a full and wholesome career.
David Davis (Goole and Pocklington) (Con)
The Minister has said that veterans will have Government support. I am sure that is what he intends, but the hard reality is that the Bill that he is defending will lead to coroner’s court inquiries into decisions taken in a fraction of a second, 40 years ago. The best way to look at that issue is to look at what has already happened, as described by the senior judge who oversaw the judicial review of the Coagh inquiry:
“In this challenge, this Court is being asked to slow the passage of time down, to analyse events in freeze-frame and to address the issue of absolute necessity in slow-motion…It is ludicrous to suggest that this court should analyse the events of the day in question in that manner”,
but that is what will happen with Loughgall and all the other issues that will come before the courts, and our brave and honourable soldiers will be humiliated through that process. That is why the process is the punishment.
Al Carns
I thank the right hon. Member for his comments. The reality is that 90% of all casualties in Northern Ireland were caused by terrorists, and it is not lost on me that that context is often lost in today’s society. That is why it is essential that we ensure that the individuals holding the inquests, and indeed the legacy commission, have the best operational context and advice as inquests progress. As the Clonoe inquest showed, if we do not agree with the findings, we will judicially review them—that is what I did in the case of Clonoe, and we will do it again if we need to. We must prevent the process from becoming a punishment, and looking back retrospectively on Clonoe, I think that advice from an individual who understood the operational context, the tactical detail and the strategic outputs that were to have been delivered would have led to a different conclusion being reached.
Jonathan Davies (Mid Derbyshire) (Lab)
This Government have a very strong story to tell when it comes to recruitment and retention in defence, whether that is about investing in homes for our forces people, providing free travel over Christmas, or delivering a 6% pay rise last year and a 4.5% pay rise this year. I know that those efforts are working, because one of my staff, Archie Butler-Gallie, will be leaving shortly to go to Sandhurst—I am sure that colleagues from across the House will want to congratulate him on that. What further steps can the Minister take to ensure that our armed forces are an attractive career for young people, as well as those changing jobs?
I also welcome what the Minister has said about the Northern Ireland element of this issue. I urge him—as I know he is doing—to leave no stone unturned in ensuring that inequitable or vexatious prosecutions are not brought against our forces personnel.
Al Carns
First of all, there are no vexatious prosecutions. I would also say that if you want to see the world, work with some of the best people in the world, have an adventure and get trained in leadership, by all means join any one of our officer academies, or go to one of our recruitment centres. It is the best career anyone could possibly ask for, and I do not regret any day—maybe one—of my 24 years in Her Majesty’s armed forces.
Sir Andrew Mitchell (Sutton Coldfield) (Con)
Have there not already been numerous investigations and inquiries, and while old wounds are being reopened, is it not the case that little new evidence is emerging? The Minister, who is my parliamentary neighbour, is a most distinguished soldier. Surely he must be concerned that the circumstantial evidence about the impact on the health and wellbeing of veterans is clearly impacting morale, retention and recruitment elsewhere.
Al Carns
I thank the right hon. Member for his question. Of the 300,000 veterans who served in Northern Ireland, among whom I include myself, this will affect a small number, but we must not allow that to be an excuse not to put in place the most well-thought-through and legislatively sound protections. One of those protections is a legal duty to consider veterans’ welfare, so that individuals who are suffering from physical or mental issues because of their service in Northern Ireland do not get dragged back through the system. That is linked to the measures on giving evidence from home, which will ensure that no one needs to return to an area where they may have had distressing or psychologically impactful moments.
Catherine Atkinson (Derby North) (Lab)
This Christmas, the Government funded travel for up to 35,000 service personnel—including over 2,000 from the east midlands—so that they could be with their family over the festive period. My husband served in Afghanistan, so I know how much it means to have those moments with loved ones. Does the Minister agree that that kind of support demonstrates that our Labour Government are on the side of our armed forces?
Al Carns
I thank my hon. Friend for her point, and I thank her husband for his service—we do not say that enough in this country, and I think we should say it more. The previous Government focused on ships, bombs, bullets, guns and rifles, but they did not focus enough on the key asset of our armed forces, which is our people. We are doing that now, including through a comprehensive messaging campaign around the policies that have been put in place to increase recruitment and retention, and we are seeing a statistical change in recruitment and retention because of that—there has been a 30% increase, and an 8% reduction in outflow. That is a fantastic change. We have much more to do, but this Government are heading in the right direction, and we are going to do much more over the years to come.
Stuart Anderson (South Shropshire) (Con)
On a serious note, on this work towards retention and recruitment, I have not found one person in my entire military network—those I served with during the troubles and after—who supports the Bill. I welcome the rise in recruitment—one of those recruits is my son, which is great to see—but can the Minister confirm whether anyone serving in the senior chain of command has said that the Bill is a potential obstacle to operational capability or future retention and recruitment?
Al Carns
I thank the hon. and gallant Member for his comments, and also for his service. Nobody in the senior command has raised the Bill with me in relation to recruitment and retention.
Emily Darlington (Milton Keynes Central) (Lab)
I thank my hon. and gallant Friend the Minister for his service—we should thank people for their service more often. I had the pleasure of being part of the armed forces parliamentary scheme, through which we got to visit a training academy and see the cadets. It was a fantastic experience, but when we talked to the people on the estate, they said that two things were limiting the number of young people who could be part of the programme. The first was the number of people who were able to act as trainers, and the second was the facilities. What is the Minister doing to address those two concerns, at a time when so many people are responding to the Spotify adverts and signing up to be part of our armed forces?
Al Carns
We have a huge amount of people wanting to join the armed forces. The problem is that the processes we inherited with the old recruitment scheme are out of date and need to be renewed. That is being put in place now. We have reduced more than 100 outdated medical requirements and we are refining the processes. We have created a digital ability to get hold of GP records, which is reducing the time of flight from an individual putting in their application to the point where they join. As a result, we are seeing an increase. We are focusing on people, we are raising morale and we are moving the system forward.
Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)
The Northern Ireland Veterans Commissioner has said that this legislation will mean that those who serve in the armed forces are treated worse than terrorists. Former commanders have said that it will affect recruitment and retention and leave soldiers in fear of legal action. Does the Minister not recognise that by giving in to the IRA’s demand for the ability to rewrite the history of the troubles, it is leading to the situation where soldiers will be dragged through the courts in their old age? Should his message to the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland not be, “Your job is to stand up for those who served in Northern Ireland and not to kowtow to the IRA, Sinn Féin and the Irish Government”?
Al Carns
This is not giving into the IRA’s demands in any way, shape or form; this is about truth, justice and reconciliation. It is about taking those three different groups of people—veterans; the families of those who have lost loved ones, who could be civilians or members of the PSNI or the RUC; and, families who have lost loved ones because of military action—and ensuring that we navigate the process to get to truth, justice and reconciliation. The right hon. Member knows better than me the difficulties of Northern Ireland politics. My job, as the ex-Veterans Minister and now the Armed Forces Minister, is to ensure that veterans are protected 100% as we move through that process, and that is what I am determined to set out to do.
Several hon. Members rose—
Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)
Happy new year, Madam Deputy Speaker. The French Government have recognised the legal jeopardy that my hon. Friend the Member for South Suffolk (James Cartlidge) has described, and they have legislated to protect their servicemen and women and veterans accordingly. That is contained within their recently published manual on military operational law—all 353 pages of it—which I recommend to the Minister. Why can the French do that for their people, while this Government are doing completely the reverse?
Al Carns
I fundamentally disagree. We hold our British forces, whether it be the Army, the Navy or the Air Force, to the highest legal standard. We always will, and it is what separates us from terrorists or dictatorships. I would be interested to read the French document so that we could have a discussion offline and see whether there is any applicability to how we run things.
Mr Paul Kohler (Wimbledon) (LD)
I am supportive of the Government’s desire to move beyond the Tories’ failed legacy Act, provided that the legitimate concerns of our veterans are met. However, I am not convinced that the Northern Ireland Office is even listening to, let alone acting upon, those concerns. Can the Minister tell the House what discussions he has had with the Northern Ireland Office to address veteran concerns? What would he say to veterans dissatisfied with the safeguards in the Bill?
Al Carns
For almost a year and a half now, I have been in constant discussion with various veterans groups, whether that is co-ordinated by the Royal British Legion or whether that is individuals from our intelligence community, our special forces community or the Parachute Regiment, all the way through to line infantry members in the Navy and the Air Force. I have been listening. We have designed these protections around what they have said. We are reinforcing that into legislation, and my office is in daily contact with the Northern Ireland Office to ensure that we shore up those protections collaboratively and come out with the best possible way to get to truth, reconciliation and justice across all three different groups within Northern Ireland.
John Cooper (Dumfries and Galloway) (Con)
America’s Delta Force has been involved in an incredible feat of arms in Caracas over the weekend. Of course, Delta Force is based on the 22 SAS regiment. Its formation came after Charles Beckwith served with the SAS. When the SAS speaks, it is usually listened to. The Minister has told us today that he has spoken to individuals from the SAS who signed the letter saying that this Bill is not fit for purpose. Have they changed their position?
Al Carns
I have spoken to several of the generals who have raised these concerns. I have spoken to the associations connected to a variety of organisations across the group, and I have spoken to active members of those organisations to ensure that statistics are communicated effectively and people are representing what is and what is not happening. It is not lost on me that Delta Force was shaped off the SAS. It is not lost on me that forces at the tip of the spear are essential to all the security that we enjoy. We have got to protect them. We have got to ensure that we give them the correct capability and protections as we move forward, and that is what I will do.
Jim Allister (North Antrim) (TUV)
Special forces operations inescapably involve split-second decisions and walk a very fine line. If those operatives perceive that the Government do not have their back, is the Minister seriously saying that will not have an adverse effect on morale or recruitment?
Al Carns
It is clear that the Government have our armed forces’ back. I have just spelled out a whole list of recruitment and retention initiatives. Indeed, we have individuals with the most military experience sat within the Department in the political space. They understand the line that they walk—they have walked it several times across various different operational theatres—and understand it wholeheartedly.
Ben Obese-Jecty (Huntingdon) (Con)
Given the concerns that have been expressed about this Bill and protections for our veterans, what assessment has the Minister made of the forthcoming Haddon-Cave inquiry and the impact that could have on the retention of personnel, given the cohort of people affected are likely either still serving or are of the same era as veterans in this Chamber?
Al Carns
The Haddon-Cave inquiry is an independent inquiry established by the last Government, and we must allow that to continue. We are focused today on ensuring that the correct protections are in place and written into law to ensure that no veteran who served so valiantly in Northern Ireland has any concerns about the Northern Ireland legacy Bill as it progresses in terms of their involvement in that operational context.
Chris Coghlan (Dorking and Horley) (LD)
I thank the Minister for his engagement with the various associations, which I know is appreciated. I also welcome the improvement in recruitment. However, how are veterans meant to feel that there is anything other than persecution when incidents such as Loughgall—an exemplary SAS counter-terrorism operation—are granted a public inquiry, and incidents such as the 1987 IRA bombing of Enniskillen, which left 12 people dead and at least 60 people injured, are not?
Al Carns
The reality is that the last Government’s legacy Act made promises that could not be kept, and explaining why to our veterans community is exceptionally difficult, and I will not lie on that. On the same hand, we have been clear that inquests that were started by the last Government, but stopped—such as Loughgall in 2014—must continue and come to their rightful conclusion. We must ensure that throughout that process, all our veterans are protected as we progress.
Dr Neil Shastri-Hurst (Solihull West and Shirley) (Con)
The Minister has more experience than most with the global threats facing this country. In those circumstances, we need to be recruiting the brightest and best to our armed forces and retaining them. He has set out current retention levels with certain detail, but that is before the Bill passes through Parliament and, as the Government hope, becomes enacted as law. Does he not recognise that the inequality of arms under the legal system for our veterans is likely to have a significant impact upon retention?
Al Carns
This Government have an exceptional record on supporting our veterans. We put more money into veterans than any other Government in the past 10 years. We put £50 million into Valour. We have enhanced the Op Restore programme. Op Courage on mental health has now got £21 million and has rolled out. Our career transition partnership is second-to-none. On housing, we have got Op Fortitude. We have had 4,100 referrals and more than 1,000 veterans supported. We are doing a fantastic job for veterans. We must ensure that they are protected as we go forward.
Sarah Pochin (Runcorn and Helsby) (Reform)
With the risk of future prosecutions for simply following orders, would the Minister join the British Army today if he was a young man again making a career choice?
Charlie Dewhirst (Bridlington and The Wolds) (Con)
The Government’s troubles Bill contains no provisions to prevent former members of the IRA or other paramilitary groups from sitting on their proposed legacy commission. Northern Ireland veterans and victims are rightly outraged, so will the Minister use this opportunity to assure the House that the Government will table amendments ensuring that terrorists will not sit on that commission alongside the families of victims?
Al Carns
I have worked very closely with those in the Northern Ireland Office on this issue, and I will allow them to come up with the answer, but from our perspective the legacy commission as a whole has the most powers to review the evidence that has gone through. It will get to truth, reconciliation and justice better than any other organisation, which is why we are promoting pushing as much as we can through it to ensure that those three different groups of people in Northern Ireland get to that truth and reconciliation in the first place.
Richard Foord (Honiton and Sidmouth) (LD)
I carried out court martial duty while serving, and it gave me greater confidence in justice for accused serving personnel. Last week we learned that, as Prime Minister, Tony Blair supported the trial of British soldiers by court martial rather than by a civil court. When it was suggested that the case should go to a civil court, he annotated the proposal with the words, “It must not!” Can the Minister reassure civilians who are thinking about joining the armed forces that justice from a jury of a service person’s peers is worthy of their confidence?
Al Carns
In my last role, I had considerable dealings with the service justice system. I have been to visit the Defence Serious Crime Command and had a look at the victim support units that it has established, and I can say that since 2021 there has been a huge amount of revamping and rebuilding of the service justice system. It is fully fit for purpose, and it has my utter confidence.
Esther McVey (Tatton) (Con)
Seven former SAS officers say that troops feel abandoned by this Government’s legacy Bill. Given those comments, does the Minister believe that the Bill will incentivise the next generation to apply to serve in the armed forces, or, rather, that it will prevent the next generation from taking that career path, in the knowledge that they could be abandoned by a future Government, just like the troops who feel abandoned by this Government now?
Al Carns
There has been no impact on our special forces recruitment. The SAS is the tip of the spear, one of the best regiments in the world. It will continue to be so, and I have no doubt that it will continue to attract the very best of our armed forces to join and serve in its ranks.
Blake Stephenson (Mid Bedfordshire) (Con)
In response to the question from my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Spelthorne (Lincoln Jopp), the Minister said that he respected the views of the officers who had shared their concerns—so why does he think they are wrong?
Al Carns
I have 100% respect for the views of anyone who has served in our armed forces, and I am willing to sit down and talk through, in detail, any of the statistics that we have in the Ministry of Defence that would show that statistics do not necessarily justify some of the comments that were made. I am happy to discuss that with anyone, at any point.
Robin Swann (South Antrim) (UUP)
I welcome the steps taken by Ministers in their support for our armed forces, but may I caution them that the Northern Ireland Office’s troubles Bill has the potential to undo all that? The protections for veterans in the Bill are not specifically for veterans, no matter how they are packaged—and how weak it sounds to tell a Northern Ireland veteran who lives in Northern Ireland and served in Northern Ireland that he will not have to go to Northern Ireland to give evidence. The Minister has often cited the fact that no Northern Ireland party supported the last Government’s legislation. Can he tell me what Northern Ireland party currently supports the Bill as it is drafted, and if he cannot do so, will he pause and reflect?
Al Carns
The hon. Member knows better than I the difficulties of Northern Ireland politics. My role in this is to ensure that veterans are protected. I speak to the Northern Ireland Veterans Commissioner on a weekly basis for hours on end to make sure that we are defining, refining and implementing the correct protections for our veterans. Whether they served in Northern Ireland or were deployed to Northern Ireland from here on the mainland, from my perspective they are one and the same.
Katie Lam (Weald of Kent) (Con)
The relentless and malicious lawfare to which our brave Northern Ireland veterans have been subjected has exposed the fact that, in Britain, human rights laws can be used to attack those who have risked their lives for this country, not to protect them. The conditions in which soldiers and veterans are forced to live, even if they are accused with no evidence and no credibility, are inhumane. What will the Minister do about the situation, and if it cannot be resolved through the European Court of Human Rights and the Human Rights Act, will he call for them to be, respectively, left and repealed?
Al Carns
I have made it very clear that anyone who served in Northern Ireland, and indeed any veteran, will receive the full legal and welfare support of the Ministry of Defence. We saw that in the Soldier F case, and we will see it in any case that goes through. The full weight of the Ministry of Defence will be provided to protect veterans, in any way, shape or form, from vexatious claims or the lawfare to which the hon. Member has referred.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I thank the hon. and gallant Gentleman for his answers. I ask him, with great respect, whether it is any wonder that recruitment is down when a Sinn Féin First Minister tells my right hon. Friend the Member for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson) and my party to “butt out” of recent recruitment issues—paired with this Government’s support for our veterans in the context of Northern Ireland. Who in their right mind would sign up to be abandoned in the future for doing their job in order to give in to republicanism? Does the Minister acknowledge that the cost of the sale of our veterans may well be the defence capability of this great nation? He is an honourable man, and is much liked in the Chamber and, indeed, outside it, so will he take this opportunity to stop the rewriting of history and stand by our troops, past and present?
Al Carns
I thank the hon. Member for his—as always—well-thought-through contribution. We have made our perspective clear: we must protect our veterans from the process being wielded as a punishment, and we must also ensure that none of the terrorists who caused 90% of the casualties in Northern Ireland can rewrite history to suit their own narrative. We must not allow that to happen. Importantly, what underlines all this is that we must protect those who have protected us if this nation is to remain as great as it always has been.
Defence
Al Carns Excerpts(2 weeks, 5 days ago)
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Ben Obese-Jecty (Huntingdon) (Con)
Last week, the Minister for Defence Readiness and Industry told me:
“There are no other platforms within the Army’s armoured fleet which can fulfil the armoured reconnaissance role; Ajax has been specifically designed for this purpose.”
Our commitment to NATO includes two divisions. The first includes three manoeuvre brigades, with armoured and mechanised capabilities. With Ajax undeployable, we have no formation reconnaissance capability and therefore no deployable armoured brigade, thus we are not currently meeting our NATO obligation. Will the Minister clarify whether we still meet his NATO test without Ajax, whether we meet our NATO obligation more broadly, and, if he thinks we do, how?
Al Carns
As the hon. Member will recognise, a review of Ajax is under way. However, Ajax has been overspent and the key user requirements have changed and oscillated from left to right for the past 10 years. We have now taken this on and we recognise that we have to secure the capability to provide our armed forces with the very best. The reality is that Ukraine is teaching us that war is being fought very differently. It is not just about armour; as the hon. Member knows, it is about a mix of uncrewed systems and armoured systems, not one over the other.
[Official Report, 15 December 2025; Vol. 777, c. 612.]
Written correction submitted by the Minister for the Armed Forces, the hon. Member for Birmingham Selly Oak (Al Carns):
Al Carns
As the hon. Member will recognise, a review of Ajax is under way. However, Ajax has not been overspent but the key user requirements were over-specified. We have now taken this on and we recognise that we have to secure the capability to provide our armed forces with the very best. The reality is that Ukraine is teaching us that war is being fought very differently. It is not just about armour; as the hon. Member knows, it is about a mix of uncrewed systems and armoured systems, not one over the other.
Oral Answers to Questions
Al Carns Excerpts(3 weeks, 1 day ago)
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Fred Thomas (Plymouth Moor View) (Lab)
The Minister for the Armed Forces (Al Carns)
The Government are working exceptionally hard to ensure we speed up our procurement of uncrewed systems. In 2024 alone we are buying up to 5,400 drones, moving up to 8,000 in 2026. Really important is the development of our drone uncrewed centre of excellence, which will be launched later this year to provide better co-ordination and co-operation across defence, industries and academia in the delivery of uncrewed systems.
Fred Thomas
Britain’s future security depends on developing, testing and, crucially, adopting uncrewed systems quickly and safely, but the regulation is immensely complex. It spans many Departments, including the Ministry of Defence, the Department for Transport and the Department for Science, Innovation and Technology. The regulators include the Maritime and Coastguard Agency, the Civil Aviation Authority, the Military Aviation Authority, Ofcom and the Environment Agency. The list goes on—it is endless—and for the military, the police, the agencies and our innovators, the barriers are stifling. My hon. Friend will know that I have worked with stakeholders to develop proposals for reform, which he has seen, and I know that the MOD, the Department for Transport and even the Treasury are considering them, but to make real progress, we need coherence in this area. Will he now help me to convene a meeting of all the key regulators across the Departments to drive this forward?
Al Carns
My hon. Friend’s passion and support for this subject are not lost on me. The reality is that the majority of casualties on the frontline in Ukraine are caused by uncrewed systems. We have a navy without any ships that has destroyed a navy, and we have an air force with a minimal amount of fighter jets delivering strikes deep within Russia. With the dedication of the UK uncrewed system centre, which will open later on this year, we are establishing a centralised body of expertise to cut across the regulation and align regulatory freedoms with defence, to ensure that we can reduce that friction and improve assurance. I would love to meet my hon. Friend and the collective organisations to move this forward at pace. Enough is enough when it comes to regulation; we need to get on with it and we are going to double down over the next 12 months.
Rebecca Smith (South West Devon) (Con)
Turnchapel Wharf and the Cattewater in my constituency host many marine autonomous defence innovators, but the Maritime and Coastguard Agency’s workboat code edition 3 is hampering the testing, development and utilisation of autonomous vessels. They cannot even get the licences to be out on the water. What conversations has the Minister had with his counterparts in the Department for Transport to stress the urgency of sorting out this issue, so that the promised defence investment for Plymouth actually gets out to sea?
Al Carns
It is not lost on me that the testing and trialling of systems, in both the maritime and the air space, is full of regulatory issues and hurdles. We have had a couple of meetings with the Department for Transport, and we have a firm grasp of the problem. We now need to move this forward and unlock legislation to ensure that it is easier and far faster for those companies not only to develop cutting-edge technology and get it into the open market but to procure it for defence.
Amanda Martin (Portsmouth North) (Lab)
Chris Vince (Harlow) (Lab/Co-op)
The Minister for the Armed Forces (Al Carns)
The Government are putting NATO first and stepping up on European security. In the past month alone, I have met US, German and Estonian counterparts to discuss deepening our co-operation and protecting NATO’s eastern flank. But it does not stop there; this is about joint exercising and joint industrial co-operation. In just the past 12 to 18 months, we have done an amazing frigate deal with our Norwegian partners, we have done a deal for Typhoons with Turkey, and we are building our industrial and exercising co-operation across the whole of the NATO flank.
Sarah Hall
Yesterday I visited the Ukrainian family hub in Warrington for its Christmas celebrations. Many families who fled Putin’s war of aggression have made Warrington their home, but they are deeply worried about what the future holds, what peace might look like and whether they will ever be able to return safely to Ukraine. Can the Minister reassure them that the UK and our NATO allies remain steadfast in our support for Ukraine both in defending its sovereignty and in shaping a just and lasting peace?
Al Carns
The pain of losing one’s home is not lost on me, and being apart from friends and family over the Christmas period has a huge impact. Nearly 7 million Ukrainians have been displaced since 2022, all because of Putin’s barbaric and illegal invasion. I want to be absolutely clear: we will stand with Ukraine for as long as it takes, and we are committed to working towards a just and lasting peace. That is why we are spending a record £4.5 billion on military support for Ukraine this year, and why our total committed military, humanitarian and economic spend now amounts to £21.8 billion.
Ben Goldsborough
Norfolk has a proud and enduring history in the defence of our islands and our allies, from Nelson’s legacy to the RAF bases that welcome NATO personnel to this very day. What assessment has the Minister made of how Norfolk’s defence assets can further support our shared security with our NATO partners?
Al Carns
I thank my hon. Friend for the opportunity to acknowledge the vital military history and work of Norfolk. Whether defending the UK from zeppelin raids in world war one or serving as a frontline bomber command in world war two, RAF Marham has long been a cornerstone of our UK’s airpower. We are investing in RAF Marham, procuring multiple F-35 jets that will fly from the base. Those will strengthen NATO’s nuclear deterrence posture and add huge paths over to my hon. Friend’s constituency.
Callum Anderson
Deterrence depends not only on military strength but on our economic resilience, from energy security to protecting our critical infrastructure and vital industries. Will the Minister provide more information on what conversations he has been having with our partners and NATO allies in Europe, to align our economic security measures with our broader defence strategy on our continent?
Al Carns
The reality is that armies, navies and air forces respond to crisis; economies, industries and societies win wars. We are stepping up in these key areas, but we are not alone. As a great general once said, there is only one thing worse than working with allies, and that is working without them. We are doing this together. We are working within NATO to integrate economic security such as supply chain resilience for critical sectors and collective defence planning, and as part of the G7 we are strengthening investment, screening, export controls and the protection of critical national infrastructure.
Chris Vince
As the Minister will be aware—I mention it quite often—Harlow is home to high-tech defence innovation and skilled jobs. Will he confirm that one consequence of the historic NATO summit in June is that there will be further investment in defence and resilience that constituencies such as mine can benefit from?
Al Carns
This Government are not hollowing out defence or taking a dig at defence procurement. This Government are increasing morale, increasing recruitment and, importantly, making defence an engine for growth by investing in SMEs all over the country, with new cutting-edge technology and technological capability that will be battle-winning in the long term.
Sir Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
Having sat through the debate on Ukraine on 4 December, has the Minister taken on board the important message for our NATO colleagues that if there is a forced division of Ukraine, just as there was of occupied Germany at the end of the war, it will be essential that unoccupied western Ukraine is fully manned with deterrent allied troops? Nothing could be more destabilising than a vacuum in western Ukraine, with a heavily militarised occupied eastern Ukraine under the control of the killer in the Kremlin.
Al Carns
I thank the right hon. Member for his insight and support for all things defence. We must ensure that Ukraine is at the very centre of any negotiation, and this Government have been leading not only on the coalition of the willing but also across the Ukraine defence contact group. Just recently we raised €50 billion in support of Ukraine. If the Ukrainians negotiate a peace, the UK will fully support that peace through multiple different vectors.
Richard Foord (Honiton and Sidmouth) (LD)
There is a mismatch between the rhetoric that we are hearing and the funding for defence in this Parliament. The NATO Secretary-General talks about preparing for war on the scale that our grandparents endured, while the US national security strategy states that it is a “core interest” of the United States to “re-establish strategic stability” with Russia. In that context, will the Government urge a lowering of the temperature of statements by the likes of the Chief of the Defence Staff and the First Sea Lord, or will they increase defence spending closer to 3.5% of GDP in this Parliament?
Al Carns
Let us be really clear, for 14 years—[Interruption.] For 14 years, we have not seen defence spending going up. As shadow Ministers sit on the polished Opposition Front Bench criticising the individual Ministers speaking on behalf of the Government, I am the one who, collectively with others, had to put up with poor recruitment targets, terrible morale, and poor equipment and capability. For the first time in a generation, this Government are increasing defence spending for a long time, so that everybody in uniform will be able to look forward for the next 10 years and see that defence spending is going up. Well done.
Ben Obese-Jecty (Huntingdon) (Con)
Last week, the Minister for Defence Readiness and Industry told me:
“There are no other platforms within the Army’s armoured fleet which can fulfil the armoured reconnaissance role; Ajax has been specifically designed for this purpose.”
Our commitment to NATO includes two divisions. The first includes three manoeuvre brigades, with armoured and mechanised capabilities. With Ajax undeployable, we have no formation reconnaissance capability and therefore no deployable armoured brigade, thus we are not currently meeting our NATO obligation. Will the Minister clarify whether we still meet his NATO test without Ajax, whether we meet our NATO obligation more broadly, and, if he thinks we do, how?
Al Carns
As the hon. Member will recognise, a review of Ajax is under way. However, Ajax has been overspent and the key user requirements have changed and oscillated from left to right for the past 10 years. We have now taken this on and we recognise that we have to secure the capability to provide our armed forces with the very best. The reality is that Ukraine is teaching us that war is being fought very differently. It is not just about armour; as the hon. Member knows, it is about a mix of uncrewed systems and armoured systems, not one over the other.
Susan Murray (Mid Dunbartonshire) (LD)
An individual recruited by the Russian Government recently carried out an arson attack on British soil. That followed the Yantar’s aggressive action against the RAF in the North sea. Does the Minister agree with me that to defend against the growing Russian threat, we need to co-ordinate with our European allies, not just on aiding Ukraine, but on domestic security measures, be they on land, at sea or in our digital spaces?
Al Carns
The hon. Member makes an exceptionally valid point. Just last Thursday, we launched the Military Intelligence Services that are primarily about co-ordinating all of our intelligence capabilities to ensure that we can identify, deter and defeat threats should they be posed towards the UK, our critical national infrastructure or any of our sensitive sites. It is worth noting that engagement between the Military Intelligence Services, our defence intelligence and all our other agencies goes hand in glove with our like-minded European allies fighting for democracy and freedom all over the world.
John Glen (Salisbury) (Con)
Bradley Thomas (Bromsgrove) (Con)
The Minister for the Armed Forces (Al Carns)
That is exactly why, on Thursday, we launched the Military Intelligence Services, to map and track those threats, deter them and, if necessary, defeat them.
Jonathan Hinder (Pendle and Clitheroe) (Lab)
The Government’s deal to build 20 new Typhoons for NATO member Turkey is welcome news for jobs in Lancashire, including for my Pendle and Clitheroe constituents who work at BAE’s Samlesbury site. I am sure that the Minister will agree that, in this geopolitical environment, we need sovereign capability more than ever, so can he give us some more good news, back British workers and put in a domestic order for Typhoons?
Dr Danny Chambers (Winchester) (LD)
The Army Training Regiment Winchester, which puts about 20% of new recruits through basic training, is due to be shut next July, but the replacement facility at Pirbright is not due to open until 2030 at the earliest, although apparently that might be delayed. We have corresponded on this briefly, but would the Minister be willing to meet me and perhaps facilitate a meeting with the commanding officers of Winchester and Pirbright, to ensure that they have the support they need to increase troop numbers and not lose the capacity to train 20% of them?
Al Carns
I would love to sit down and, in person, talk through this particular issue. It is worth noting that, for the first time in a long period, more people are joining than leaving, but it would be useful to talk through the specifics of the issue.
Amanda Hack (North West Leicestershire) (Lab)
I welcomed the Minister’s response in relation to the LGBT redress scheme, but my constituents have reported difficulties in obtaining evidence of mistreatment from the Ministry of Defence. Are there any further actions that the MOD can take to ensure that it is easy for our veterans to access such evidence?
Johanna Baxter (Paisley and Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
One of the many challenges that Ukraine will face should a peace agreement be reached is the task of clearing land of mines and unexploded ordnance so that it can once again sustain Ukraine’s vital agricultural economy. How do the Government intend to invest in innovative de-mining technologies and work with Ukraine to ensure that its land is made safe and productive for the future?
Al Carns
The devastation caused by Putin’s illegal war in Ukraine is not lost on any of us. Millions of landmines—anti-tank mines—have been laid all across the frontline and will take decades to clear. We will work constructively with our Ukrainian and international allies to ensure that Ukraine is returned to normal as soon as peace is declared.
Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD)
The maintenance of our nuclear deterrent, and the development of our wider defence capabilities in the United Kingdom, rests heavily on the town of Barrow, next to my own constituency, in my district of Westmorland and Furness. Does the Secretary of State recognise that investment into the town from the council is crucial to maintaining our peace and security, and will he have a word with his colleagues in the Cabinet? The local council is set to have a 13% cut to its budget, which will put at risk much of the investment in the town of Barrow that is meant to underpin the defence of our realm.
War in Ukraine
Al Carns Excerpts(1 month ago)
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The Minister for the Armed Forces (Al Carns)
First, I express great thanks to the hon. Member for Harwich and North Essex (Sir Bernard Jenkin) for pulling together this debate. I have listened to the truly outstanding speeches and contributions from all Members on both sides of the House, but I would like to begin by paying tribute not to us, but to the brave men and women of the Ukrainian armed forces who, day in and day out, are fighting for national survival. They are fighting for freedom, for justice and for the right to self-determination, and I believe there is no more honourable thing to be doing.
Today in this House we have sent a clear and resounding message to Vladimir Putin that no matter how he tries to justify his illegal war in Ukraine, no matter how he blames other countries for conflict that he alone is responsible for, and no matter how he thinks he can intimidate Europe—with drone incursions, spy ships and reckless activity—we see him and we know exactly what he is up to.
My hon. Friend the Security Minister updated the House earlier on the consequences of Putin’s reckless and despicable activity here on the British mainland. Dawn Sturgess’s needless death was an unspeakable tragedy that will forever be a reminder of Russia’s reckless aggression. That is why he today announced in the House sweeping measures to include sanctions on the entire GRU—the Russian military intelligence agency—and 11 actors behind Russian state-sponsored activity.
The UK will always stand up to Putin’s brutal regime and call out his murderous machine for what it is, which is why we are united in our determination to support Ukraine for as long as it takes to achieve the just and lasting peace that the people of Ukraine fully deserve, to keep tightening international economic sanctions on his economy and to keep working with our partners to protect Europe from the threats he poses.
I thank Members on all sides for their speeches, and I would like to reflect on some of the comments and themes. The hon. Member for South Suffolk (James Cartlidge) mentioned many valuable points. The right hon. Member for New Forest East (Sir Julian Lewis) mentioned a really useful saying about NATO, and we may want to think in a similar way about these negotiations—keeping the US in, keeping the Ukraine at the very centre and keeping Europe focused. It is on the diplomatic points that were mentioned that I personally believe the Government have driven—we had a leading role in ensuring that the 28-point peace plan is relevant, has Ukraine at its very centre and has Europe all pushing together in a unified manner. Our Government and our Prime Minister have done a fantastic job in that regard.
When we talk about assets—I will talk about them in a bit more detail later—I am quite confident that by the end of the year we will, hopefully, collectively with Europe, have unlocked a huge amount of assets to apply more pressure on Russia and to fund Ukraine’s defence. For clarity, on our own readiness, by 2027 we will be spending 2.6% on defence.
The hon. Member for Harwich and North Essex mentioned that the war in Ukraine has spread, and the argument has been made across the House that we are at war. I would argue that the war in Ukraine is geographically constrained, but the conflict is not. We see that moving across and around all the conventional themes of war, specifically in the cyber domain, the influence domain right here in the United Kingdom, and, of course, in the political domain, with the funding of political parties to cause division and strife across the political divide.
The hon. Member also talked about whether Ukraine was losing. I am a firm believer, at the strategic level, that Ukraine and NATO are absolutely on the front foot. Sweden and Finland have become part of the greatest defence alliance the world has ever seen. Russia has taken 1 million casualties. It is just worth thinking about that: 1 million casualties. It is almost the population of some eastern Baltic states. It is more casualties than America took in the entire second world war. In a lot of cases, we have isolated Russia from the west. Its economy is under significant pressure and just this year it has taken 380,000 casualties on the frontline.
Sir Bernard Jenkin
I am most grateful to the Minister for giving way and for his response to the debate. I know his personal commitment to these issues is very strong indeed, but may I just take him back to the point he makes? He pulls back from the idea that we in the NATO countries are already in a kind of war with Russia. I have to tell him that there is a tendency to try to sanitise the severity of the threats we face. How effective does he think is the Government’s “conversation” with the British population about the threats we face? How successful does he think that is? A lot of us feel that we are not seeing it at all. The Government are not leading this conversation. Indeed, it is almost being shut down because of the pressures of domestic politics, and the lack of support from the public for having such a conversation makes it very difficult. Will he comment on that, because it was in the strategic defence review?
Al Carns
I thank the hon. Member for his contribution. It absolutely was front and centre of the strategic defence review. There will be a couple of announcements coming in the next couple of weeks about how we hope to change the narrative and better explain, in a relatable manner, the threats or crises that take place away from our shores and how they impact us here in the UK. A small example, although attribution and where it came from is still to be understood, is the £1.5 billion bail-out for Jaguar Land Rover. That is half the two-child benefit cap for a year. That relatable statistic suddenly hammers it home to individuals in all our constituencies. They may not be focused on international policy, but they understand the ramifications for the way we live here.
Energy prices and the cost of food—one of the biggest impacts on the cost of living—are caused by the war in Ukraine. More people were plunged into poverty across the globe because of the war in Ukraine. We need to make more of a conscious effort, collectively, to describe these threats, and how they resonate here and globally, in a more forceful manner, so that people understand why taking an active stance on some of these conflicts is equally as important not only for the countries involved but for the United Kingdom.
The hon. Member for Harwich and North Essex also mentioned, in his fantastic opening speech, NATO and whether we are ready. Another description is required when we talk about the UK and our readiness to defend. We are a part of NATO. Statistically, when we look at the scale of NATO forces available, we see that we outnumber Russia by a significant amount, whether in the air force, maritime or land domain. I agree with his comments about the remarkable unity that Europe and the UK have shown when engaging with the 28-point peace plan—in some cases rejecting it and changing it to ensure that Ukraine is at its very centre. European and UK leadership has been second to none in that space.
One subject that has resonated across the House today is the issue of the abducted children. My hon. Friend the Members for Washington and Gateshead South (Mrs Hodgson), my hon. Friend the Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire South (Johanna Baxter), who could not make it here today, and the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) have all mentioned the impact on families and children in particular. This is not new. It is part of Russian doctrine. It was used in Afghanistan. In every conflict, they round up the children, move them to Russia for re-education and indoctrination, then bring them back. We are seeing an appalling abduction of Ukrainian citizens by Russia on a scale that is described by the Yale Humanitarian Research Lab as the largest wartime child abduction since world war two. It is absolutely shocking and despicable.
The UK has raised this issue at the UN and the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe, and I pay tribute to the efforts of my hon. Friend the Member for Washington and Gateshead South in highlighting the OSCE officials in Russian custody: Dmytro Shabanov, Maxim Petrov and Vadym Golda. We have committed £2.8 million to help Ukrainian children come back, and have been an active member of the International Coalition for the Return of Ukrainian Children throughout. Since the beginning of September, the pilot tracing mechanism has already identified over 600 additional children who were deported to the Russian Federation or relocated within the temporarily occupied territories.
I agree with the view that the right hon. Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith) holds of Zelensky. His leadership, courage, determination and conviction are an example to not only the Ukrainians but the world of how a state that in some ways is dwarfed by Russia has stood up against one of the biggest militaries in the world. I also agree, being relatively self-critical of the west, about there being some institutional arrogance when it comes to defence technology. That links to the point made about Ukrspecsystems. There are false lessons from Ukraine, but there are many more real ones that we need to adhere to, learn and integrate into our armed forces—in particular, about the integration of uncrewed systems data and electronic warfare. This point will be made throughout the defence investment plan. To be clear, we did not agree with the 28-point peace plan, and have worked very hard to change it, to put Ukraine at the very centre of it, and to look at what is acceptable. I hope to discuss some of the implications of that later.
The hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell (Helen Maguire) brought up a really good point about unexploded ordnance and the use of landmines in the conflict. There are millions of landmines, now rendering large swathes of Ukraine inaccessible to the farmers or families who once owned the land. It will be a generational problem to solve, and one that Members from all parties will need to deal with collectively.
From my perspective, our support for Ukraine is unshakeable. I say to the Father of the House, the right hon. Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh), and my hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli (Dame Nia Griffith) that, from my perspective, we are doing the most we can to support Ukraine. We are spending £4.5 billion on military support to Ukraine. We are leading the Ukraine Defence Contact Group, which has already delivered and harnessed £50 billion-worth of support for Ukraine. To make that more tangible, that is 5 million rounds of ammunition, ranging from 60,000 rounds of artillery all the way through to 100,000 drones this year alone and 140 lightweight missiles. There is much more to do. The defence industry is powering up across Europe. If we look at our defence industrial base, and our societal resilience in dealing with this conflict, I think we can see that we are waking the sleeping tiger in Europe.
I also think that the constant threats and hyperbole from Vladimir Putin are a direct consequence of significant pressure, and of him having to live with the moral indignation of being responsible for over 1 million casualties and the devastation of large swathes of Ukraine. Like the right hon. Member for Gainsborough, I personally do not think that there is division in the UK; we are unified across the parties. I do not think that there is division in Europe, particularly among the large players in this space. I believe that we have unity when it comes to the 28-point peace plan and putting Ukraine at the very centre of that negotiation. Ukraine must keep fighting, and the UK will be with it throughout.
The hon. Member for Harwich and North Essex, my hon. Friends the Members for Leeds Central and Headingley (Alex Sobel), and for Llanelli, and many others mentioned frozen assets. We support the continued pressure on the Russian assets that are fuelling this illegal and barbaric war across Ukraine, and the pressure on Russia’s economic tentacles, but we must put increased pressure on Russia. It is worth noting that we have clamped down on Russia’s war machine and economic support mechanism. We have already sanctioned over 2,900 people and companies, and with our allies, we have already put in place £450 billion-worth of sanctions, which is the equivalent of two years of fighting.
We are moving forward with plans to use the full value of immobilised Russian sovereign assets to support Ukraine. We welcome the European Commission’s action just this week to bring forward concrete plans to meet Ukraine’s urgent financial needs—plans that will support the defence of the nation. I look forward to hearing more detail on that, hopefully by the end of this year.
Sir Iain Duncan Smith
I want to raise a point that I have just been told about. There is a debate right now in the Bundestag about the sanctions regime, and the German Chancellor Herr Merz has given up other visits in the last 24 hours to go to Belgium to persuade the Belgians to agree to proposals on sanctions. There is pressure around this. I have just been asked to ask the Minister whether he would say that this is a very worth- while visit, and that the British Government support the intention of getting Belgium to enter into the scheme with the lion’s share of the Euroclear funds. That would make an enormous difference to support for Ukraine.
Al Carns
I was in Germany just last week, and when I left, I muttered, “Germany is back.” I think that representatives from Germany going to Belgium to help unlock a significant amount of resource for Ukraine can be nothing but a good thing.
Many Members mentioned the increase in hybrid conflict. The conventional war that Russia is waging is the most barbaric that we have seen since, I would argue, world war one or world war two. Nevertheless, Europe and the west must accept that this attritional, force-on-force, game-of-chequers approach is accompanied by a sophisticated chess match, the consequences of which are as deadly. I believe that Russia is probing to find weaknesses in our security and critical national infrastructure. It is manoeuvring and flanking to change opinions, both on social media and in political parties, and is seeking to circumnavigate sanctions at every opportunity, and it is doing so with like-minded autocratic regimes. We must work doubly hard to identify, expose and deter those threats, and we should have the capability to defeat them, should they prevail.
I disagree with the comments of the hon. Member for Inverness, Skye and West Ross-shire (Mr MacDonald) about timidity and a lack of leadership. In the foreign policy space, the UK, in conjunction with our European allies, has helped the Americans come to a more workable solution, and the Ukrainians have been put right at the heart of that—and I think that the Prime Minister has demonstrated exceptional leadership in that. We are still seen to be leading this fight. I look to the Conservative Benches. Whether it be Storm Shadow or Challenger, collectively we have led on this, from a UK perspective. I do not think that we are lacking in any way.
Sir Julian Lewis
One way in which we could continue to lead would be by giving a very firm commitment that if the frontlines are indeed frozen, a coalition of the willing would have military assets on the ground, at the invitation of unoccupied Ukraine, so that there could be no question but that a future attack would trigger a response from that coalition. Otherwise, any security guarantee is not worth the paper on which it is printed.
Al Carns
The right hon. Member makes a very valid point. We have led over 30 countries in the coalition of the willing in designing safe seas and skies and secure borders. We have a capability that is well thought-through and well-planned, and it will be ready to go, if required.
The reality is that a secure Europe needs a strong and sovereign Ukraine, and Ukraine must have credible security guarantees if it is to defend itself, as many Members have mentioned. That is why we have led the coalition of the willing; and be in no doubt: we are ready to deploy and deliver our commitment, should the peace be negotiated to allow us to do so. We continue to put in £3 billion a year—£4.5 billion this year—and we will continue to play a leadership role in the Ukraine Defence Contact Group.
Pokrovsk was mentioned early on, and it was rightly pointed out that it has not fallen yet. The Ukrainians are holding a valiant defence of that town. It is worth mentioning, when we talk about tactical success or failure, that Russia has advanced only 15 km over the last year, equivalent to 4 metres a day, and has taken 170,000 casualties to fight its way into Pokrovsk. That is a world war two scale of casualties. Russia has suffered over a million casualties to gain only around 1% of Ukrainian territory; that brings home the impact of the conflict.
Day after day, for almost four years, the Ukrainians have fought with incredible courage, determination and ingenuity. The UK and Europe stand together, more so than ever before, and Putin’s continued aggression binds us closer together. We are collectively spending more on defence than at any time since the cold war, with more joint exercising, more joint planning and more joint capability development, because Ukraine is at the forefront of European security. If Putin opts for a long overdue ceasefire, we will continue to lead the coalition of the willing to establish credible deterrence in Ukraine. If that is not forthcoming, we will continue to work with allies to put Ukraine in the strongest possible position by upping military support and upping the pressure on Putin’s war machine.
The hon. Member for Tiverton and Minehead (Rachel Gilmour) gave a great speech that quoted Churchill, so may I finish on one, also?
“When I look back upon the perils we overcame across the great waves, the gallant ship has sailed, we will not fear the tempest. Let it roar, let it rage.”—[Official Report, 7 May 1941; Vol. 371, c. 946.]
Ukraine will come through.
Defence Estate Security Review
Al Carns Excerpts(1 month, 1 week ago)
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The Minister for the Armed Forces (Al Carns)
Further to the Minister for the Armed Forces’ statement of 8 September (HCWS913), I am providing a further update on the measures we continue to take to enhance and improve security across the defence estate.
As we set out previously, after many years of under-investment and hollowing out under the previous Administration, we have identified the physical security of our sites as an area in need of greater focus. The Department is using in-year funding to deliver physical security enhancements, focusing on high priority sites across the defence estate. We remain committed to maintaining the highest standards of security to safeguard our national defence capabilities.
Since we last updated the House, we have maintained our posture of enhanced vigilance and continue to strengthen our security culture. Our updated guidance and reinforcing messaging applies to all those working on our estate, including our contractors. We have made it easier for defence personnel and industry partners to report suspected security incidents.
In respect of our airbases, the Royal Air Force has made significant progress in strengthening security through advanced technical enhancements, now operational at multiple main operating bases. These enhancements provide a robust layer of protection at our most critical sites. A key innovation is the use of cutting-edge technology through the immediate threat mitigation solution—a self-contained CCTV system designed to detect, track and deter unauthorised access.
This technical innovation strengthens physical security measures. At RAF Brize Norton, for instance, the upgraded automated track-and-detect system monitors specific areas and feeds into a central control room which is monitored 24/7, enabling faster decision making and improving the Military Provost Guard Service’s ability to respond swiftly and effectively to incidents. In addition, engagement with local landowners and Thames Valley police is strengthening suspicious activity reporting.
Together, these steps ensure technology and our workforce operate in tandem as part of a layered security approach, with lessons learned being rolled out across the defence estate.
We will also be piloting restricted airspace above 40 strategic sites across the defence estate, a precursor to wider implementation in 2026, reinforcing existing national security act legislation. This will aid the enforcement of the National Security Act prohibited place legislation and assist with identifying malicious and unlawful activity. We are significantly investing in remote piloted aerial systems, a drone capability that provides persistent surveillance and patrolling to help deter threats and identify them when they arise. This equipment has been procured and personnel are beginning training shortly.
We have taken decisive steps to improve recruitment across MOD Police, MOD Guard Service, Military Provost Guard Service, and Security Services Group. Recent financial incentive campaigns for the Military Provost Guard Service have been a success and we will consider similar campaigns where appropriate. Other steps include more targeted approaches to advertising and improved candidate engagement.
Looking further ahead, improvements through the implementation of the strategic defence review will address the chronic under-investment in the security of the defence estate this Government inherited and improve the assurance of security and resilience risk management that this Government inherited. The £20 million for digital transformation of our security, which the Minister for the Armed Forces announced in her statement to the House on 8 September, is being invested in three flagship systems to modernise defence security. These include MOD adoption of the critical national infrastructure knowledge base, a new enterprise incident case management system, and a real-time physical security assurance platform.
Ensuring the safety and security of the defence estate continues to be a key priority. We are focused on improving physical security, taking advantage of technological advancements and reinforcing our workforce to ensure that we deliver. And all those who seek to threaten the security of our bases should be in no doubt that we will use all the levers at our disposal to take swift action wherever and whenever that occurs. The Department will not hesitate to pursue prosecution where criminality is suspected.
[HCWS1103]
Russian Ship Yantar
Al Carns Excerpts(1 month, 2 weeks ago)
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James Cartlidge (South Suffolk) (Con)
(Urgent Question): To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will make a statement on the use of lasers by the Russian spy ship Yantar.
The Minister for the Armed Forces (Al Carns)
Mr Speaker, with your permission I would like to make a statement on the Russian main directorate of deep-sea research—
Mr Speaker
Order. I say this gently to the Minister: unfortunately, it is not a statement—that is what I had wished it would be. He is answering an urgent question, and I think that is the big problem; somehow, different Departments have decided that statements do not matter. I know that is not the Minister’s position, but I hope that people are listening and that the message about how important it is that this House comes first will go back to the Defence Secretary.
Al Carns
Mr Speaker, I will pass the message on to the broader team.
I would like to make some comments on the Russian main directorate of deep-sea research programme, known as GUGI. As the Secretary of State for Defence described yesterday, the Russian research vessel Yantar is part of this programme, and is used for gathering intelligence and mapping undersea infrastructure, not just in the United Kingdom but across many other nations, both in Europe and across the globe. The UK understands that the Yantar is but one ship in a fleet of Russian vessels designed to threaten our critical national underwater infrastructure and pose a threat to our economics and our way of life.
Russia has been developing a military capability to use against critical underwater infrastructure for decades. GUGI is developing capabilities. It is deployed from specialist surface vessels and submarines that are intended to be used to survey underwater infrastructure during peacetime, but then damage or destroy infrastructure in deep water during a conflict. Russia seeks to conduct this type of operation covertly without being held responsible. Such capabilities can be deployed from surface vessels like the Yantar. That is why Defence directed a change in the Royal Navy’s posture, so that we can better track and respond to the threats from this vessel and many others.
The Yantar has been operating once again—for the second time this year—in and around the UK’s exclusive economic zone. During that time, she was continuously monitored by Royal Navy frigate HMS Somerset and the RAF’s P-8s.
We will ensure that the Yantar is not able to conduct its mission unchallenged or untracked. But that has not been without difficulties: a laser assessed to be originating from the port side of the Yantar was directed at British personnel operating one of our P-8s in a highly dangerous and reckless attempt to disrupt our monitoring. The P-8 continued to monitor the Yantar’s activity. Post incident, when its personnel arrived back safe in the UK, they were medically assessed. No injuries were sustained and no damage was sustained to the aircraft or her equipment.
Russia does not want us to know what it is doing or what the Yantar is up to; it does not want the world to know what it is doing. But we will not be deterred; we will not let the Yantar go unchallenged as it attempts to survey our infrastructure. We will work with our allies to ensure that Russia knows that any attempt to disrupt or damage underwater infrastructure will be met with the firmest of responses. I finish by saying a great thank you to the brave men and women of our Royal Navy and RAF who continue to keep us safe at home and abroad.
James Cartlidge
Thank you, Mr Speaker, for granting this urgent question. I echo what you said: it is unacceptable that we are getting the Minister’s update on a major national security incident 24 hours after the Secretary of State gave his press conference. Have Ministers learned nothing from the total shambles of the strategic defence review, when defence companies got a copy many hours before parliamentarians?
I turn to the incident, which appears to represent a serious escalation by Russian forces in close proximity to our homeland. Given the priority of protecting our service personnel—I welcome the news that the P-8 pilots were unharmed—will the Minister outline what mitigations are being taken against the evolving laser threat involved?
This incident surely underlines that Russia remains a serious threat. That being so, we could not help but notice that yesterday the Defence Secretary got the podium out for the media just as the Defence Committee was publishing a damning report about Labour’s total lack of progress on boosting our defence readiness. The report said that when it comes to readiness the Government are moving “at a glacial pace”.
On the subject of pace, the SDR promised a defence readiness Bill that would include measures to deal with the grey zone threat, but Ministers recently told me that it has not even been timetabled. In what year will the defence readiness Bill become law?
Capability questions will be key when it comes to undersea cables, but every one of Labour’s defence policy papers has been late. The Government promised to publish the defence investment plan “in the autumn”. With a week of that season remaining, will they keep that promise?
As the Minister knows better than anyone, when it comes to the hybrid threat, our special forces are more important than ever. Is he not concerned that General Sir Michael Rose, who led the relief of the Iranian embassy siege that made the SAS world-famous, has condemned the Government for “hounding SAS veterans”, warning that that will harm recruitment and morale?
The Yantar incident shows the seriousness of the threat that we face, but what are the Government actually doing in response? The answer: Labour is cutting £2.6 billion from defence spending this year, surrendering sovereignty of the Chagos islands and, following its shameful vote this week, putting the British Army back in the dock.
Al Carns
The hon. Member is correct that Russia does remain a threat. With the ongoing conflict in Ukraine causing over 1,000 casualties a day, it is the biggest threat that the UK has faced in a generation.
As we progress and we hear the Opposition’s criticism of the Government, trying collectively to convince us that we are not doing anything, it is worth noting from my perspective of 24 years of service that we watched the degradation of defence, with the armed forces facing their lowest morale, equipped with equipment that was not fit for purpose, going alongside ships that had not left docks in years, and with families in houses with leaky homes and damp. We had to put up with delay, decrepitude and downgrading of all our defence capabilities.
Now, for the first time in a generation, the military is looking at an increase in defence spending and, with the strategic defence review, integrated missile defence, “NATO first”, and by 2027 running a Steadfast Defender with a whole-of-society approach. We are putting £4 billion into uncrewed systems and £1.5 billion into munitions. The defence readiness Bill is another legislative process to push further changes through by the end of this Parliament.
On elements at the tip of the spear, I can assure the hon. Gentleman, looking into the details, that recruitment and retention is not one. Indeed, we inherited the smallest Army since Napoleonic times due to recruitment and retention issues under the previous Government. Before the Conservatives start lecturing us, a year and a half into our government, on how decrepit our defence is, and downplaying our soldiers, Air Force and those individuals in the Navy, they should take some responsibility for the mismanagement of the defence portfolio for the last 14 years.
Mr Calvin Bailey (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab)
The Yantar’s presence within our waters makes clear Russia’s threat to our democracy, and I am grateful for the service of the brave men and women of the Royal Navy and Royal Air Force who protect us. Within the context of the Defence Committee’s recent report, can the Minister highlight how our Government’s leadership of the Ukraine Defence Contact Group and our treaties with Germany and France are essential in ensuring that we reset our relationships and ensure that democracy is safe within Europe?
Al Carns
I would like to thank my hon. Friend for his contribution.
Since coming into Government, we have signed the Trinity House deal with the Germans and renewed the Lancaster House deal with the French. We have done the world’s biggest-ever frigate deal with the Norwegians, bringing in tens of billions in investment. We have done a Typhoon deal with the Turkish, and we have secured a UK-EU security and defence partnership. We have led the coalition of the willing with the French. We have taken on the UDCG, which has generated billions of investment for Ukraine. We have done deals with the EU, US and India. I would argue that this is like an episode—a really bad one—of “Deal or No Deal”.
Calum Miller (Bicester and Woodstock) (LD)
May I begin by joining the Minister in thanking our service personnel for their bravery and dedication? The use of lasers in this instance was a brazen act of aggression by Russia that endangered the lives of RAF pilots. Have the Government identified the Russian officials and military personnel who gave the order to engage so that they can be held accountable and sanctioned? What assurances can the Minister give that Russia understands the consequences of repeating this aggression towards the UK?
This episode has shown once again the lengths to which Putin will go to undermine Britain’s defence. It follows the reports of Russian sabotage of Poland’s civilian railway this week. Can the Minister tell the House what conversations Ministers have had with fellow European Ministers to agree a collective response to Russia’s hybrid attacks, including to protect Europe’s critical undersea infrastructure? Recognising also that our Ukrainian allies are on the frontline of Putin’s aggression, will the Minister take forward my private Member’s Bill, which calls for the unilateral seizure of Russian assets in the UK so that they can be used to fund Ukraine’s defence?
Al Carns
The hon. Member brings up a really valid point: the Yantar and the GUGI programme is not just a UK issue; nor are the asymmetric threats that we collectively face across Europe. They are international issues. GUGI vessels operate all over the world. We will collectively work together to gather evidence and show Russia that we know exactly what it is up to, and indeed expose any nefarious activity. I would like Members to be in absolutely no doubt that we will hold people, states and organisations to account should any of our critical national infrastructure be threatened in any way.
Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent and Rhymney) (Lab)
Given both the Baltic sea incident in 2024, where underground cables were said to be sabotaged, and the latest provocation where the Yantar is said to be mapping undersea cables, will the Minister please outline how allied co-ordination, particularly with our Nordic and Baltic partners, could be strengthened?
Al Carns
My hon. Friend raises a really valid point. We have seen several cables in the Baltics severed or cut. I would argue that the Yantar, with its intelligence-gathering capability, maps these cables, and perhaps accidents take place at a later date. We are working really well, in particular with our Norwegian partners and the US, to ensure that we understand the exact capabilities that sit on some of these vessels, so if something were to happen, we can attribute and expose it , not just from a UK perspective but an allied one.
Sir Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
Responding to that directly, if the Government are trying to map the capabilities of the vessel, can they tell us whether they knew in advance that it had this laser capability, and if they did, whether steps are being taken to find methods of protecting our personnel against such laser attacks? Will the Minister and the Government be careful not to fall for the bully’s playbook of the killer in the Kremlin? It is no coincidence that this incident happened now, just at the time that the Americans are coming up with a “peace plan” that plays into the hands of Putin and betrays our Ukrainian friends.
Al Carns
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his contribution, which was very focused and meaningful, as always. I will not go into detail on the specific capabilities, but from our perspective there has been no impact on the aircraft or the crew, and we have expanded our rules of engagement to ensure that no vessel can operate over sea, over our critical national infrastructure, without being watched and monitored in the closest and most sophisticated way.
Sarah Coombes (West Bromwich) (Lab)
The first duty of any Government is to keep our citizens safe, which is why this Labour Government are delivering a historic uplift in defence spending, in stark contrast to the cuts of the Conservative Government. The Minister set out a potent example of the rising threats to our country. Will he say more about how our increased defence spending will keep us safe and support jobs in the defence industry, such as at the Westley Group in my constituency, which makes all the castings for our UK submarine fleet?
Al Carns
My hon. Friend raises a really important point. Defence spending is not just about defending the nation; it is an engine for growth. The Typhoon deal alone has created over 20,000 jobs, and Members will have seen just recently that we are providing up to 100,000 drones to Ukraine. That is to do not just with the capability going forward, but with the industrial base back here in the UK. The huge increase in defence spending in 2027 will broaden our defence industrial base; combined with deals here in the UK and overseas, we will make it an engine for growth, increase jobs and prosperity, and, importantly, shore up the defence of the nation.
Sir Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)
May I congratulate the Government on being more forward in their public responses to this kind of provocation than any other European member of NATO, let alone the United States, but also point out that this underlines what we know from what Putin and Lavrov have been saying? They think they are at war with NATO and with the United Kingdom already. The question is not how we retaliate directly, but how we retaliate in order to put pressure on Putin and Russia. The answer is by increasing our military assistance to Ukraine to tip the balance in its favour, change the calculus, and get the Russians to come to the peace table and agree a proper ceasefire, which even President Trump’s appeasing plan seems most unlikely to achieve.
Al Carns
The hon. Member is right: we must push as hard as we can to impose cost on Russia. To date we have spent £21.8 billion in Ukraine—£4.5 billion in military support—and I know we have support from both sides of the House to do everything we can to increase the pressure. I mentioned that we have upped our drone production to 100,000 this year, and we are increasing our training of Ukrainian troops to 61,000 in total. We will do whatever it takes to enable the Ukrainians to win the peace.
Torcuil Crichton (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (Lab)
The Yantar was intercepted in the north Atlantic, which is the UK’s new frontline but my constituents’ backyard. I was reassured by the preparedness of the RAF and the Royal Navy and grateful for their defence of our airspace and seaspace, but what assurance can the Minister give my constituents about our preparedness and resilience to meet these kinds of hybrid attacks? These cables do not just run across the Atlantic; they run between our islands, too.
Al Carns
My hon. Friend highlights a valid point. The north-west of Scotland plays an invaluable part in our defence architecture, and sustains economic growth with a variety of undersea infrastructure. We have some of the best ships, personnel, aircraft and Air Force members. They will continue to monitor, track and deter any Russian aggression anywhere near and within our territorial waters and exclusive economic zone.
Graham Leadbitter (Moray West, Nairn and Strathspey) (SNP)
I associate myself with comments about the bravery and professionalism of the military personnel involved in the response to the Yantar’s presence, many of whom are based at Lossiemouth in my constituency. Yesterday, the Defence Committee published a report recommending that the UK Government accelerate and deepen defence relationships with the EU in the face of Russian threats. However, unsurprisingly, the EU is now charging the UK to enter agreements to which we had EU member access prior to Brexit. That leaves these isles more isolated. In the face of the very real Russian threat, what is the risk to RAF pilots and crews at Lossiemouth? Will the Minister tell me the specifics of any plans to work closely with European allies to ensure safety and security of the North sea and the protection of Scotland’s coast from Russian vessels?
Al Carns
We are working closely with our European allies to get access to the Security Action for Europe programme and an EU-UK defence partnership. That is primarily for two reasons: first, so that we end up with a far more collaborative and interoperable defence capability, and secondly, to ensure that the economic benefits of both are seen south of our coast and here in the United Kingdom. Importantly, we have a trajectory to invest in P-8s long into the future. They play such an important role in our anti-submarine warfare fleet, and will continue to do so until the threat is gone.
Jacob Collier (Burton and Uttoxeter) (Lab)
I thank the Minister for his statement and join him in thanking the Royal Navy and RAF personnel, and the civilian staff, who have been involved. There is a possibility that vessels such as the Yantar could be used to launch drone attacks on the UK. Will the Minister reassure us that he is working to bolster the UK’s air defence system?
Al Carns
That is a valid point. For years we have not taken homeland security seriously. The House will note that, in the strategic defence review, we have invested in integrated missile defence, which is important both for very sophisticated systems and for the low-grade systems we have seen flying in our airspace, which are sometimes more difficult to track and defeat. I can absolutely give the assurance that we are investing in integrated missile defence as we move forward with the strategic defence review and the defence investment plan.
Tom Tugendhat (Tonbridge) (Con)
I welcome many of the Minister’s comments. I would add my enormous thanks to the intelligence personnel who assisted not only in zeroing in on the ship but in understanding its capabilities a long time before anybody else arrived on the scene.
As a fellow former military assistant in the MOD, may I raise one point with the Minister? We have both seen Governments of every colour making decisions and statements that sound good on the day before the reality of a lack of kit becomes clear. I saw that under Blair and Brown, and again, yes, under Governments of my own stripe. I am sure that the Minister, too, saw that under them all. I raise this because the reality is that the world has changed. We are much, much more vulnerable today than we have been, but we have fewer ships at sea, fewer men in uniform and fewer planes in the air than we have had at any time. Yet the aspiration for the 3% is still “by the end of the Parliament” or “over the next five years”, and always on the never-never. He must be very careful, as I am sure he is hugely aware, that he is there to change defence, not to apologise for failure.
Al Carns
The right hon. and gallant Member raises a valid point. When we came into government, we took the significant step of raising defence spending, but he knows as well as any that it is not just about buying or investing in the same capability; it is about rebuilding and reshaping our armed forces to fight not yesterday’s war but the war of the future. We are absorbing many of the lessons from Ukraine to ensure that we can transform our military to fight in the most effective manner. That is why I got into this game in the first place—to move that along faster, particularly when it comes to autonomous systems.
The right hon. and gallant Member will have seen in the strategic defence review a massive increase of £4 billion for autonomous systems, as well as an increase in the number of drone companies. Just today, the Defence Secretary opened another factory down in Plymouth. I am away after this statement to go and open another in Swindon. A huge industrial base to build drones is growing in the UK. It is a Seedcorn capability that can expand rapidly at times of conflict. I am happy to take any of these points offline to talk further about how we can work collaboratively to move forward.
Chris Webb (Blackpool South) (Lab)
This reckless act from Russia demonstrates how important it is that the world stands united against Putin’s aggression. What discussions has the Minister had with his international partners about maintaining and galvanising that support?
Al Carns
That is a really useful point. Individually, we are strong. Collectively, we are united. It is really important that we double down on our allies and partners to collaborate—whether that is with NATO, the joint expeditionary force or some of our European or international allies. This is all about our being stronger together, whether that is the UK Army, Navy, Air Force and intelligence partners working to expose the Yantar’s capability, or collectively, working with all our like-minded allies to make sure that we are mapping and tracking its capability. Should there be a disruption in critical national infrastructure, we can then expose it and attribute it as fast as possible.
Ben Obese-Jecty (Huntingdon) (Con)
Everyone in this House should be concerned by the increase in Russian sub-threshold activity, and this certainly is not the first time we have found ourselves in this House discussing the Yantar specifically. The use of lasers against an operational P-8 very much pushes the boundaries of what we could consider to be sub-threshold activity.
I want to ask the Minister a question that is very much within his bailiwick. I do not expect him to be able to comment on whether we have deployed any elements of the Fleet Contingency Troop to HMS Somerset, which is tracking the Yantar, but under what circumstances and geographically whereabouts within our waters would the Yantar need to be in order for us to apply some maritime interdiction via the Fleet Contingency Troop?
Al Carns
I thank the hon. and gallant Member for his point. As someone who used to be in that part of the organisation, I am sure there are lots of people who are champing at the bit to get involved. We must adhere to the international rules of the sea, but let me be really clear for anyone listening to this today that we know exactly what Russia is up to—without a shadow of a doubt, we know what it is up to—and should there be a connection between understanding our cables or undersea infrastructure and disruption, individuals, units, organisations or countries will be held accountable.
Peter Prinsley (Bury St Edmunds and Stowmarket) (Lab)
The sight of this sinister ship snooping around our shores strikes alarm. How can we be confident of the security of our vital undersea communication cables and what, without compromising our security, is plan B if they are severed?
Al Carns
As my hon. Friend will know, we work with our allies to build contingency across all our critical national infrastructure. There is lots of work to do, and we are working in collaboration with other Governments to do it. The point he raises, which is one of the most important, is that Russia wants to operate behind a veil of darkness, in the shadows, but let us be really clear: we know exactly what it is doing; we know everything that it is up to. A laser pen is not going to deter us. We will continue, we will double down and, if required, we will expose and attribute.
Charlie Dewhirst (Bridlington and The Wolds) (Con)
In the light of this recent escalation, what specific and immediate steps is the Minister taking to ensure that UK armed forces are equipped both to protect critical underwater infrastructure and to respond rapidly and effectively to direct threats from Russia and others?
Al Carns
The strategic defence review points to the multi-role ship and our buying into mapping and tracking our infrastructure, protecting it and, importantly, if required, deterring capabilities such as the Yantar, and a suite of capabilities that the Russians can field, to ensure they cannot work with impunity in either the EEZ or international waters.
James Wild (North West Norfolk) (Con)
In January, the Defence Secretary came to this House to make a statement when the Yantar passed through British waters, but he did not see fit to do so when that ship directed lasers at our pilots, which I think reflects poorly on him. Has the Russian ambassador been summoned over this highly dangerous action, and if not, why not?
Al Carns
I thank the hon. Member for raising that point. It is something I will take up with my colleagues in the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office. If there is unruly or escalatory activity, we have to continue to ensure that, diplomatically, individuals are called in and held to account, and we will continue to do so.
Nick Timothy (West Suffolk) (Con)
We know, as the Minister has said, that Russia and China target undersea cables and interconnectors, which we rely on increasingly because of the Government’s energy policy. We know that the Russians put listening devices on our offshore infrastructure to monitor our submarines, and we know that China, which dominates the world market for cellular internet modules, inserts kill switches into the turbines that this Government want to buy from them. I have been asking the same question for a year now: why is there not a single Minister in charge of the security of our offshore energy infrastructure? What representations have Ministry of Defence Ministers made to the Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero, who is causing so many of these problems?
Al Carns
I would not say that there has been a lack of accountability, but the hon. Gentleman is right to mention that until now there has been a lack of centralisation around our critical national infrastructure. A recent report was issued and we now have clear lines of accountability. Defence is a part of that and we are building our capability, with the view eventually of fulfilling our role with that structure. We are working collaboratively across Government to ensure that our critical national infrastructure is protected, so that should there be an incident, there is accountability.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I thank the Minister for his strong words and his answers, which encourage both hon. Members and those who are listening. Let us be clear and succinct: Russian ships have twice entered British sovereign waters, and to add to that aggression, they have been tracking our RAF pilots with lasers. Our enemy has breached our waters disgracefully, disregarded neutrality and shown disrespect. The facts and the evidence are there. To quote Winston Churchill, who I loved when I was a boy and who was certainly my hero:
“We shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be”.
Will the Minister confirm that this is a form of attack, and that the might of our armed forces is poised, their equipment is trained and they are ready to go?
Al Carns
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his insightful question. Be in no doubt: we will defend every inch of this country and our territorial waters. If anything is taking place in our EEZ, in particular, we will expose, we will attribute and, be in absolutely no doubt, we will hold people, organisations or countries accountable should there be any impact on or disruption to our critical national infrastructure.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Caroline Nokes)
I will now announce the result of yesterday’s deferred Division on the draft Radio Equipment (Amendment) (Northern Ireland) Regulations 2025. The Ayes were 376 and the Noes were 16, so the Ayes have it.
[The Division list is published at the end of today’s debates.]
Typhoon Fighter Sovereign Capability
Al Carns Excerpts(1 month, 3 weeks ago)
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The Minister for the Armed Forces (Al Carns)
I thank you, Sir Christopher, for chairing this debate and the hon. Member for Fylde (Mr Snowden) for securing it. It is an important subject, and it will continue to be important for a long time to come.
In this week of national remembrance, when the service and sacrifice of our armed forces are at the forefront of our minds, I begin by paying tribute to all those who have served in the Typhoon force. Since its introduction in 2003, they have taken the risks that come with service and been a backbone of the RAF’s combat air capability. Over those 22 years, across many operations and theatres, Typhoon has proven itself to be the UK’s premier multi-role combat aircraft, successfully supporting a wide range of missions with its state-of-the-art technology incorporated over a number of upgrades.
Today, Typhoon plays an important role at home and abroad. We rely on the Typhoon force to fulfil the RAF’s primary role of protecting the UK’s skies through its quick reaction alert capability, enabling a swift response to any emerging security threats. Since September, on NATO’s eastern flank, we have had two Typhoons from 3 (Fighter) Squadron—supported by a Voyager from 101 Squadron—flying as part of NATO’s Operation Eastern Sentry. That mission reinforces the UK’s unwavering commitment to NATO and our allies.
Earlier this year, Typhoons from 2 Squadron deployed to Poland as part of Operation Chessman—NATO’s enhanced air policing campaign. That deployment involved more than 20 scrambles to defend NATO airspace, alongside numerous joint training sorties with 13 NATO partners. In recent years, Typhoons have also conducted successful operations in Romania and Estonia as part of our enduring NATO air policing commitment, in Libya for Operation Ellamy and in Syria and Iraq as part of Operation Shader. Alongside those deployments, our Typhoon force has strengthened interoperability with our allies through training exercises around the world, including as part of the ongoing deployment of our carrier strike group to the Indo-Pacific, alongside the mix of F-35Bs.
Our Typhoon force is made up of six frontline squadrons, the operational conversion unit, the joint UK-Qatari 12 Squadron and 41 (Test and Evaluation) Squadron, which operates under the Air and Space Warfare Centre. Together, they form a formidable capability.
As demonstrated by the breadth of Members here today, underpinning the Typhoon force is a UK-wide, highly skilled sovereign defence industrial base. That has been a source of jobs, livelihoods and economic prosperity across many Members’ constituencies, as referenced in this debate. It is the case that 37% of each new Typhoon aircraft is manufactured in the UK—in the constituencies of many Members who made comments earlier—meaning that we continue to benefit from the investment made by our NATO and export partners.
The Typhoon programme supports more than 20,000 jobs across the UK, including engineering, manufacturing and supply chain roles. Nearly 6,000 of those jobs are at BAE Systems—in particular, at Warton and Samlesbury. More than 1,100 jobs are in the south-west, including at Rolls-Royce in Bristol, producing modules for the EJ200 jet engines that will power the new Typhoon jets. There are also more than 800 jobs in Scotland, including at Leonardo in Edinburgh, manufacturing cutting-edge radar systems. These are high-value, well-paid, good jobs—the kind that put money in working people’s pockets, that help to revitalise communities and that deliver on defence as an engine for growth up and down the country.
Of course, last month, my right hon. and learned Friend the Prime Minister announced the fantastic news that Türkiye has placed an order to buy 20 Typhoon fighter jets—a deal worth up to £8 billion and a fantastic boost for the programme. It will support thousands of well-paid jobs and at least 330 British companies across the United Kingdom. As the Prime Minister made clear in his statement, that deal with a key NATO ally not only demonstrates that our defence industry and our defence industrial strategy are delivering, but strengthens our collective deterrence and, importantly, boosts our interoperability. It makes our country and every individual in it safer and far more prosperous.
That follows our record £10 billion shipbuilding deal with Norway, demonstrating that this Labour Government are backing our industry internationally. Bringing defence exports back into the MOD—a move that did not take place until this Government came in—and the creation of the new office of defence exports will ensure that we take a joined-up approach to exports to continue to go out and win big for the UK, making defence an engine for growth.
We set out in the SDR that the RAF’s future lies in accelerating its adoption of the latest technology and innovation, and setting the pace for warfighting as the leading European air force. The Typhoon is central to delivering control of the air for the RAF and is undergoing a comprehensive set of upgrades to deliver operational advantage to meet evolving threats.
The Typhoon will continue to underpin our combat air capability into the 2040s; it and the F-35 Lightning form an interoperable, complementary and extremely potent mix of UK combat aircraft. That means that the Government will continue to make significant investments in the Typhoon through-life programme, with the new electronically scanned radar programme alone underpinned by a £3 billion investment. This programme with our Eurofighter partner nations is on track for delivery in the next decade and will continue to sustain 600 jobs across the UK, including in Edinburgh.
This Government back our defence industry—some representatives of which are here today—all across the UK. It is a shame that the SNP Government in Scotland still do not do so with a full voice.
Al Carns
Great question.
As with any capability, it is important to plan for the long term. As right hon. and hon. Members will be aware, the Government are committed to continuing to work with our Japanese and Italian global combat air programme partners to co-develop a world-leading sixth generation combat aircraft for the RAF. What that looks like and what shape it takes will be down to technological and scientific input first of all; trying to pre-position and suggest something before any of that has taken place would be folly.
GCAP is a strategically important programme for UK military capability, our international relationships and, importantly, our defence industrial base. It is the centrepiece of the future combat air system programme—or FCAS, to add to the alphabet soup of acronyms—which also includes our next generation of crewed aircraft, uncrewed platforms, weapons, networks and data sharing, as well as support and training.
The combat air industry plays a central role in our industrial strategy and makes a vital contribution to the UK economy. Over the next 10 years, we plan to invest up to £30 billion in combat air through the Typhoon programme, F-35 programme and GCAP, a significant proportion of which we devote to UK companies, particularly in north-west England. Warton is also the home of Edgewing UK, which the right hon. Member for Rayleigh and Wickford (Mr Francois) mentioned, and the UK-based entity of the new industrial joint venture that will deliver GCAP. In total, there are already 3,500 skilled people working on GCAP across the UK, including in the new intergovernmental headquarters in Reading. Numbers will continue to increase as developments ramp up.
Let me answer some of the questions that were asked. My hon. Friend the Member for South Ribble (Mr Foster) rightly reiterated the benefit of the Typhoon deal— 20 new aircraft and £8 billion investment—but he also mentioned that there were no new UK orders for Typhoon between 2010 and 2024. That is why we have a gap now.
The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) made, as always, a fantastic contribution. I personally believe that he would make a great fighter pilot, but I was trying to work out what call sign he would have—I thought “Merlin”, or something equivalent with a bit of gravitas, given the expansive knowledge that he has from his years in this place.
The hon. Member for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell) made an interesting point about the co-dependence of our defence capabilities with the Republic of Ireland. I completely agree that there is a huge co-dependence, and we need consistently to remind our partners and allies of the centrality of UK defence not just for Ireland, but for Europe and NATO.
My hon. Friend the Member for Rossendale and Darwen (Andy MacNae) supported the Türkiye deal, but he also mentioned the mixed fleet requirement. That is important, and I will come to it later. The Typhoon and F-35 do not do the same job; they are not the same capability. They are chalk and cheese—very different—and the mix gives the RAF a fantastic capability out to 2040. A lot of the detail, which Members will know is coming, will come in the defence investment plan.
The hon. Member for Huntingdon (Ben Obese-Jecty) maintained his fantastic habit of asking almost 20 questions, alongside the 300 that he sent me over the past couple of weeks. I can confirm that the Typhoon is absolutely secured out to 2040. I say this relatively gently, but from a position of experience of having been a joint tactical air controller, and the chief of staff of the carrier strike group and the integrated network of our allies and partners on supporting expeditionary warfare, I would say that we have an immense fight tonight capability.
As the hon. Member will know, it is, as always with these things, about the balance of maintaining the skills, industrial base and jobs; predicting future capability requirements; involving new science, tech, data and quantum—the new way of war being fought in Ukraine—and mixing all that together to ensure that we can predict what capability our armed forces need. As Conservative Members will know from 14 years in government, that is an exceptionally difficult challenge, but we are absolutely taking it on.
I thank the hon. Member for Fylde for securing the debate. Spending announcements, including potential orders, will be made as part of the defence investment plan. He mentioned Christmas presents coming before Christmas, but Christmas presents come at Christmas. I will say that since taking office just over a year ago, the Government have signed more than 1,000 major deals in the MOD. We continue to procure not just traditional aspects, but cyber, drones and other capabilities for our armed forces to make sure that Typhoon—out to ’24—and the F-35 are part of an integrated and centralised force.
The F-35 Lightning and the Typhoon are advanced fighter jets that are regularly deployed in operations around the world. Both fighter programmes are central to UK defence and make a substantial contribution to not only our military capability, but our economy and defence industry. Talking about outlining and jumping ahead to future capabilities—I mentioned earlier the centrality of GCAP as we move forward to try to get the sixth generation fighter correct—our perception is that that looks like a plane and has a pilot in it; we just do not know what the capability will look like.
Remembrance Day: Armed Forces
Al Carns Excerpts(1 month, 3 weeks ago)
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The Minister for the Armed Forces (Al Carns)
I beg to move,
That this House has considered Remembrance and the contribution of the armed forces.
On Sunday, His Majesty the King led the nation in commemorating generations of men and women who served, fought and, in many cases, did not return home. About 10,000 veterans gathered at the Cenotaph on Whitehall to observe the traditional two-minute silence and take part in the Royal British Legion’s Remembrance Sunday march-past. As a veteran myself, I was immensely proud to march as part of the Royal Marines Association. At memorials in towns, villages and cities right across the UK, civilians and members of the armed forces came together to pay their respects to those who have made the ultimate sacrifice in all wars.
We owe everything to those heroes who laid down their lives to defend our shores, protect our interests and safeguard our way of life. The peace and the freedom we enjoy today are their precious legacy, and it is a reminder that freedom is not free. Remembrance Day is the most important opportunity we have as a nation to come together and honour them. Remembrance for me, and, I think, for many other veterans around the country, is about remembering the friends and the brothers in arms we have lost—the specific moment when life was taken away; the gunfire, the explosion, the screaming, the chaos, the mud and the dust. It is those heightened senses at the time of a traumatic event that are imprinted upon the memory. Those memories are as vivid as the birth of a first child, a birthday or any other impactful occasion, but they have a very different meaning. Remembrance is about just that: it is the one day of the year when it is safe to remember, when memories surface and when we pay collective tribute to those who are serving and who have served.
Remembrance Day is also a very important time for this House, which has always had a special affinity with our armed forces and veterans. Given my former role, it is a privilege for me to lead today’s debate. Throughout the last year, it has been an honour to visit over 60 veterans’ organisations and to meet many outstanding and selfless people. From the veterans community hub in Lanarkshire to the Helping Homeless Veterans UK hub in Bournemouth, and across all the great nations of the United Kingdom, those individuals dedicate their time to our armed forces community.
Catherine Atkinson (Derby North) (Lab)
Support for our veterans is essential. I am proud that the Royal British Legion is growing in Derby. Will the Minister join me in wishing good luck to those who have set up a new branch in Mackworth? Does he agree that this Government’s veterans strategy, including the £13.8 million to address homelessness, shows that we are marching in step with those who campaign for veterans?
Adam Jogee (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Lab)
On that point, will the Minister give way?
Al Carns
Let me finish my point, and then my hon. Friend can jump in.
I put on record my personal thanks to the Royal British Legion for its work on the poppy appeal this year, and every year. I am sure that hon. Members across the House echo that appreciation and I look forward to hearing their contributions to the debate.
2025 has been a busy year for military anniversaries, particularly those associated with the final year of the second world war. In April, we marked 80 years since British troops swept across northern Europe and liberated Bergen-Belsen concentration camp. We remember the horrors and atrocities that those soldiers witnessed at first hand, and the incredible work that they carried out afterwards, burying the dead, containing the spread of disease and caring for the survivors. Within a matter of weeks, allied forces would be in Berlin, Hitler would be dead and communities across Britain would take to the streets to celebrate victory in Europe. On 8 May this year, we took to the streets again to celebrate VE Day’s 80th anniversary and to pay tribute to all those who fought for democracy over tyranny, liberty over oppression and human dignity over barbarism.
However, for some, VE Day did not mean that the nightmare of the second world war was over. British and Commonwealth troops in the far east, who had suffered some of the most gruelling and hostile environments of the entire conflict, still faced three months of fighting. The story of their war is one of almost superhuman strength and resilience. In August, we were able to remember their extraordinary contribution when we marked the 80th anniversary of Victory over Japan Day—the day that finally brought the most catastrophic war in human history to an end.
In September, we marked 85 years since the battle of Britain, when our aviators took on the might of the Luftwaffe, in a contest that determined not only control of our skies, but the fate of our entire nation. At a time of supreme enemy confidence, Britain proved to the world for the first time that Hitler and his forces could be defeated.
After such an important year of commemorations, today, Remembrance Day 2025, is a moment of profound national reflection and gratitude as we remember all those who served and all those who have fallen. We remember the conflicts gone by. On the 107th anniversary of the 1918 armistice, we remember those who fought in the great war. We also remember those who served in the Korean war, which began 75 years ago, as well as those who fought in Northern Ireland, the Falklands, Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere across the globe. We remember the Commonwealth troops who made a huge contribution to both world wars and other conflicts, and those who serve today and continue to uphold the values of courage, duty, professionalism and compassion that have long distinguished British armed forces.
Just as our forefathers fought for democracy, freedom and the right to self-determination, so do our Ukrainian allies in the east. Let us remember the courageous heroism that Ukraine and Ukrainians are delivering today. Pitched in a battle of national survival, their war is no less bloody than the second world war. When we think about that conflict, it is worth recognising that the Russians have taken more casualties in that conflict than the Americans took in the entire second world war. That gives a statistical feel for the pain and suffering of that conflict caused by Putin’s war of aggression. As we remember, we pay homage to all those fighting for the same values and ethics that we hold dear.
I thank the many thousands of people from civilian and military backgrounds who have worked so hard to organise what have been fantastic commemorations. Defence Ministers and shadow Defence spokespeople have travelled the length and breadth of the UK to attend the Royal Irish Regiment’s annual remembrance service in Belfast, the field of remembrance in Cardiff, the Scottish national Remembrance Sunday event, the “Remembering Afghanistan” events at the National Memorial Arboretum, the War Widows Association annual service at the Cenotaph and many others. Those are just a tiny fraction of the many events, up and down the country, that have been made possible by the tireless work of our armed forces and thousands of people in local communities. The last survey undertaken in 2018 showed that 98,115 members of the Army alone attended Remembrance Day parades at over 620 different events, and there were similar numbers, probably more, this year. Events are also being held worldwide, from Riga, where UK officials joined commemorations at the Jelgava Commonwealth war graves site, to Senegal, where colleagues held an act of remembrance at the Bel-Air cemetery in Dakar.
As we discuss the role that our armed forces play in remembrance today, we must consider the remarkable work that serving personnel perform all year round in educating young people about the history of defence, deterrence and warfare; promoting awareness and raising funds through charities, including through the Royal British Legion’s incredible poppy appeal; and working with the Commonwealth War Graves Commission to maintain military graves to the highest possible standard all around the world. Today we thank them for their outstanding contribution.
Adam Jogee
I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. In the interests of peace and togetherness, I will not take it personally that he chose to take an intervention earlier from my hon. Friend the Member for Derby North (Catherine Atkinson), whose constituency is in the east midlands, rather than from me, whose constituency is in the west midlands, but being from the west midlands he should know better. I thank him for mentioning young people. Will he join me in thanking all the young people I was with this morning at the cenotaph in Newcastle-under-Lyme, who came from local schools with their homemade poppies and wreaths? Our future commitment to democracy and peace lies in their hands, and as adults we have an important responsibility to ensure that they are a part of bringing our country together.
Al Carns
I thank my hon. Friend for his poignant contribution, and I thank those in Newcastle-under-Lyme for ensuring that awareness about the sacrifice is spread not just across the adult population, but across the youth of today. I always say that navies, armies and air forces do not win wars, but industries, economies and societies do, so making sure that society never forgets the past is critical.
Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)
May I say that there is no more appropriate Member of the House to be introducing this debate than the hon. and gallant Gentleman with his distinguished record? I think I represent more generals than any other right hon. or hon. Member of the House. The Minister will have seen that nine four-star officers wrote to The Times to raise their concerns about the Northern Ireland Troubles Bill and the legal activism that it is likely to encourage, which
“risk weakening the moral foundations and operational effectiveness of the forces on which this nation depends.”
While we all honour our brave servicemen and servicewomen today rhetorically, does the Minister agree that we need to follow that through with real action, to ensure that they are not disadvantaged today and into the future?
Al Carns
The right hon. Member makes an interesting point. I want to be clear and concise: of all days, today is a day of remembrance and is not about political point scoring. There is a debate scheduled on Thursday when we can discuss the issue in detail. I would very much welcome a discussion with the individuals who sent the letter, as would the Defence Secretary and others, to talk through the issues, to provide balance to the argument, to ensure that we protect our country and our armed forces from lawfare, and to ensure that they are represented and their voices heard.
Sir Iain Duncan Smith (Chingford and Woodford Green) (Con)
I want to return to the point about commemoration. Having served before, I remember that when I got elected back in 1992, we were not allowed to wear uniforms in public because of the IRA threat at the time, and bit by bit commemorations were no longer attended. I remember my first commemoration in Chingford; we were lucky if 100 people turned out. May I say that that has been reversed? One good example is that on Sunday at the memorial in Chingford, nearly 2,000 people turned up to commemorate those who have fallen and those who went before. Is that not a very good example of how the next generation sometimes understands commemoration better than my generation did?
Al Carns
What a welcome intervention. I was stood with veterans during the Cenotaph march-past; it always astounds me that we stand there with 10,000 people, and as the guns fire, there is complete silence in one of the busiest capitals in the world. It is a sombre but hugely humble experience. It is an absolute pleasure to see and hear all the amazing stories of almost every constituency around this great nation, standing together united to celebrate those individuals who served or are serving, their families and the bereaved.
While we often focus on the individuals who have been lost, we must remember those who have been left behind—the mothers, the fathers, the brothers, the sisters, the partners, the wives and the husbands who, after one of those traumatic events, all need to adapt to a new way of life. We need to remember them all and acknowledge that while their loved ones perhaps paid the ultimate sacrifice, it is not just the individual who serves, but the whole family—and they often suffer in silence long after the event.
Jess Brown-Fuller (Chichester) (LD)
The Minister is right to acknowledge not just the veterans, but those who have loved them. Today my son had the privilege of reading at our local cenotaph the names of those who were killed in world war two as well as the name of my best friend, who was a Royal Marine and died in 2012 in Afghanistan. It was an incredibly proud moment for me that my son got to read his name and remember the sacrifice that those who have loved and lost make for us to live our lives, so I thank the Minister for acknowledging those who have loved and lost.
Al Carns
I thank the hon. Lady for such a moving contribution. May I say, in jest, that she has a very good choice of best friends? I know that her best friend’s memory will live long into the future, and it is a delight to hear that her son took part in that commemoration.
Importantly, we must look after bereaved children. If you do not mind, Madam Deputy Speaker, I am delighted to highlight that, following our little jaunt up Everest earlier this year, we managed to raise just under £500,000 for veterans charities and the specific needs of bereaved children. That will go to help loved ones across a plethora of different charities. We show our eternal gratitude for those families who have cared for members of our armed forces after returning from service—those who often bear physical and mental scars from the conflicts they have experienced.
The reason that this year’s world war two commemorations were especially poignant is that they were likely the last major events to feature veterans from the war in any great numbers. Even the youngest of those veterans who graced the ceremonies in London are now well into their 10th decade. One of them is Mervyn Kersh, who is 100 years old and took part in the D-day landings, then went on to Belsen a few weeks after it was liberated; he laid a wreath at the Cenotaph. The whole House can be proud that he will be watching Prime Minister’s questions tomorrow from the Gallery—what an honour it will be to welcome him here.
The living connection that Mervyn and his comrades provide to the war is a priceless asset, particularly at a time when the bloodiest European conflict since the second world war continues to rage in Ukraine. They understand the cost of conflict, because they lived through it, but they also understand the privileges we inherited after the war; 80 years of peace, prosperity and freedom can never, ever be taken for granted. We must be prepared to defend them in an increasingly dangerous world, and today a new generation of servicemen and servicewomen is doing precisely that. They are heirs to the veterans who proudly paraded on 8 May, and they are the guardians of that cherished inheritance. Today we also pay tribute to our servicemen and servicewomen working around the world to deter aggression, to safeguard British interests and to stand shoulder to shoulder with our allies, showing that Putin will not divide us.
Members will note that throughout this speech there has not been one ounce of politics. That could be called political naivety, but I call it a deeply held respect for those who have served and continue to serve; I welcome the debate and conversation on Thursday. This week’s commemorations remind us once again of the unbreakable bonds linking our heroes from the past with the armed forces personnel of today and indeed with those who will serve in the future.
Mr Luke Charters (York Outer) (Lab)
Joshua Mullinger is an able cadet in the sea cadets in York, who played an integral role in the York service of remembrance, and Conservative councillor and Lord Mayor Martin Rowley is a veteran. Will the Minister join me in commemorating the work of those very remarkable individuals?
Al Carns
The cadets play such an important part, with the sea cadets right at the forefront. Seeing Joshua thriving in that environment is absolutely superb, and hearing of Martin Rowley excelling after being in service is hugely admirable—I thank him in particular for his service.
As we remember the generations who have sacrificed so much, their testimony lives on, inspiring us to be strong in the face of adversity. Being resilient during difficult times and standing up for values that we believe in—that is the way we will remember our military heroes best, and that is how we will ensure that their priceless legacy of peace and freedom will endure.
Defence Housing Strategy
Al Carns Excerpts(2 months ago)
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The Minister for the Armed Forces (Al Carns)
Our brave service personnel and their families make extraordinary sacrifices to keep us all safe. In this new era of threat, we rely on them more every day. The least they deserve in return is a decent home.
Years of chronic under-investment and the failed 1996 privatisation of military housing have driven down forces’ morale and driven too many personnel out of our armed forces altogether, contributing to a long-term decline in numbers. The very least they deserve is a warm, secure, decent home. And yet, over the past decade and a half, military housing has been steadily getting worse, with families forced to live in damp, mouldy, poorly maintained accommodation. Satisfaction with forces housing fell to its lowest level on record in 2023.
High-quality service family accommodation, with rents set at a significant discount to the open market, should be an active driver of people into our armed forces. But for the past 14 years, it has too often been the opposite.
Many of the problems we inherited derive from the Conservatives’ sell-off of our nation’s military homes to private company Annington Homes Ltd in 1996. Under the terms of this botched deal, the taxpayer picked up the bill for maintenance and rent. But any benefits from development opportunities or increase in the value of the homes were surrendered to a private equity fund. By the time Labour came to Government last year, that deal was costing the British taxpayer £600,000 a day in rental payments, with all maintenance costs also falling on the Government. This deal left our nation nearly £8 billion worse off and crucially, left a generation of dedicated service personnel and their families in substandard homes.
Six months after being elected to Government, we transferred more than 36,000 military homes back into public hands. This decisive action unlocked a historic opportunity to fix forces housing and supercharge housebuilding on defence land. Over the past six months, we have been making rapid improvements to ensure that our people feel swift benefits from this deal. In April, we launched a new consumer charter for forces families giving each family a named housing officer, introducing higher move-in standards, making quicker repairs and accelerating a renovation programme to modernise the worst homes.
This summer, we updated the charter to remove absurd rules that should never have been imposed, so forces families can now decorate how they wish and keep pets without seeking permission. And in May, we pledged an additional £1.5 billion of investment into service family accommodation this Parliament.
We are building on the progress of the past year by publishing our defence housing strategy, the most significant change for armed forces housing in more than 50 years. A copy of the strategy has been placed in the Library of the House. This strategy starts one of Britain’s most ambitious building programmes in decades, delivering new homes for military and civilian families and driving economic growth. This Government will deliver on all their recommendations.
Recommendations include:
Committing to a generational renewal of military housing.
Nine in 10 military homes to be modernised or upgraded to new, higher standards, with 14,000 homes rebuilt or substantially refurbished, backed by a 10-year investment programme totalling £9.2 billion.
Establishing a new ‘forces first’ approach, underpinned by a new, stand-alone defence housing service, to better manage military homes. This will ensure that defence is putting the voices of forces families at the forefront, while delivering new home ownership opportunities for veterans and serving military personnel.
Delivering for the nation by kickstarting a historic programme of house building on surplus defence land, with the potential for over 100,000 new homes for civilian and military families, delivering billions of pounds in economic output and supporting thousands of jobs.
There are two fundamental objectives: first, to fix the homes that we have, and secondly, to build more homes for our forces and for families across Britain.
On the first of those points, we are making a clean break after 14 years of under-investment and decline. This Government have kickstarted a decade of renewal and a historic level of investment to bring forces homes up to a standard befitting our armed forces. Thousands of military homes will receive a complete makeover, with new kitchens, bathrooms and heating systems, to ensure military families have the homes that they deserve. Work on 1,000 of the worst homes is already under way. This is a once-in-a-generation opportunity to right the wrongs of the past and set a higher bar for forces’ accommodation, so that it matches the levels accepted as the norm by the very best civilian housing organisations.
Delivering more homes, in the right places, also means that after years of uncertainty, we can widen access to service housing to better reflect modern life. This means forces personnel who share responsibility for their child’s upbringing and couples in long-term relationships will, in future, be able to access defence family housing for the first time.
As well as renewing the homes we have, we will supercharge surplus defence land to build the new homes that Britain needs. The Ministry of Defence owns a lot of land and, through the defence housing strategy, we will convert this opportunity to an advantage. Using surplus defence land not needed for current operational use, we have the capacity to build over 100,000 homes for both military and civilian families, creating jobs and growth up and down the country. Under the ‘forces first’ policy, military families and veterans have the chance to go to the front of the queue for home ownership on these sites. This programme will not only prioritise those who serve and have served our nation, but also support the national house building target and help drive economic growth.
A ‘forces first’ pilot is already under way in Feltham, south-west London, and is expected to generate hundreds of homes and jobs. The MOD has now undertaken a fresh land release exercise that could unlock thousands more homes. When surplus land is identified, it will no longer be sold off in a fire sale of assets that yields next to nothing for our armed forces or economy. From now on, defence land will be used as a stimulus to build the homes that Britain needs, create jobs and drive growth.
This Government recognise that we cannot transform our warfighting capability without also improving the welfare of our people. These two concepts are not in competition; they are inseparable. Last year, our armed forces were awarded the biggest pay rise in two decades and we expanded wraparound childcare support to families deployed overseas. Today, we are promising safe and decent housing for every single forces family, backed by the necessary funding.
The Government thank all those who worked so hard on the strategy, particularly the chair, Natalie Elphicke Ross, and her small, dedicated team for their expertise and rigour. Also, the forces’ families federations and thousands in our service community, who contributed vital insight and candour.
[HCWS1016]
Oral Answers to Questions
Al Carns Excerpts(2 months ago)
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Paul Holmes (Hamble Valley) (Con)
The Minister for the Armed Forces (Al Carns)
The very reason that I left the military was because the lessons from Ukraine, particularly around uncrewed systems, were not being learned within our military. The drone architecture was exceptionally limited, despite our watching a revolution in the character of conflict for about two years. Since then, the strategic defence review has stepped in, with £4 billion for autonomous systems and a new defence uncrewed systems centre. Training, tactics, procedures, doctrine and concepts are all changing to inculcate uncrewed systems.
Nick Timothy
I thank the Minister for his answer. The biggest drone manufacturer in Ukraine, Ukrspecsystems, is investing £200 million in Britain, opening a factory in Mildenhall in the west of my county and creating 500 jobs directly and through the supply chain. However, like all manufacturers, it is facing rising energy costs and a tax bill that is likely to go up. If the Minister wants greater drone capacity in Britain, what conversations is he having with his colleagues in the Energy Department and the Business Department to ensure that the whole Government are pulling in the same direction?
Al Carns
The uncrewed centre of excellence is trying to pull all of Government together to make the system easier to deal with for small and medium-sized enterprises. I pay tribute to Ukrspecsystems, which has been providing drones to Ukraine for the past three years. They have been used to very high effect in that country.
Paul Holmes
I refer the House to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests.
The Minister may be aware of Domo Tactical Communications, a drone manufacturer in my constituency that I have raised in written questions before. Will he uphold the visit that was due to take place by his predecessor before the reshuffle? What proportion of drones purchased for UK armed forces are procured from UK-based drone manufacturers, and what can be done to increase that proportion?
Al Carns
I have been reassured that the Minister for Defence Readiness and Industry will visit the hon. Gentleman’s constituency to have a look at the factory. From my perspective, we have increased our production of drones for Ukraine—up to 100,000 this year alone—and we are increasing the procurement of drones into the British military by thousands.
Anna Dixon (Shipley) (Lab)
I am very proud that the Government have supported Ukraine through the provision of drones. I recently visited Radio Design, a company in Saltaire in my constituency that is at the cutting edge of radio frequency, which is essential for fighting the rapidly developing threat from drones. Can the Minister assure me that procurement processes are agile enough to allow innovative smaller businesses with specialist technologies in radio frequency, such as Radio Design, to access new defence contracts in order to help us deliver on the strategic defence review?
Al Carns
It is not lost on anyone in the House that the first 100 pages of the strategic defence review are all about industry, about ensuring that SMEs can dock into the defence enterprise far more effectively, and about ensuring that we start procuring weapons and systems—and not only for our defence, but for our overseas partners. My hon. Friend will also be aware that we procured 10,000 drones in 2024. The figure has now gone up to 100,000, which are going to Ukraine to support our ally in its fight against Russia.
Peter Prinsley (Bury St Edmunds and Stowmarket) (Lab)
We have all witnessed the devastating effect of mass drone attacks, and MPs could see for themselves the sinister looking Iranian Russian drone that was here in Parliament only last week. What measures is the Ministry taking to develop a strategy in this country to defend ourselves from such a mass drone attack?
Al Carns
I recall that a quadcopter landed on the deck of HMS Queen Elizabeth when she set sail several years ago, and since then investment in taking out uncrewed air systems has been relatively limited. However, in the strategic defence review we have pledged £1 billion to integrated air defence here in the UK, and my hon. Friend will see many procurements moving forward in the defence investment plan.
James Cartlidge (South Suffolk) (Con)
According to their own written answer, the Government ordered only three drones for the British armed forces in their first financial year. At June’s Defence oral questions, I suggested that Labour could find the money to buy drones at the scale we need by scrapping the crazy Chagos deal. They rejected my proposal then, but given that the Secretary of State has just failed to deny £2.6 billion of cuts at the MOD this year, is it not even more urgent that they scrap their crazy £35 billion surrender and spend every penny on the uncrewed revolution for our own armed forces?
Al Carns
The irony! The Conservatives started the deal and they processed the deal. When Labour came into government, we finished it and we put it into place, supported by our allies—both the US and multiple others. Not only did we finish that deal, but we have started and finished an India deal, a US deal, a Europe deal, a Typhoon deal, a Norway deal and a Germany deal.
Laurence Turner (Birmingham Northfield) (Lab)
Steff Aquarone (North Norfolk) (LD)
The Minister for the Armed Forces (Al Carns)
The UK and its allies must be ready to deal with the most demanding of circumstances, deterring and preventing a full-scale war by being combat-ready. I can assure the hon. Member that low-flying training plays an indispensable role in achieving and maintaining our war fighting capability, and that it is spread throughout the whole of the UK to help minimise disturbance to the public.
Steff Aquarone
Dozens of my constituents have contacted me to express their frustration with the training patterns of both RAF and American fighter jets over North Norfolk’s towns and villages. It makes it hard to work, it traumatises pets, and in the case of one of my constituents it has left them with permanent hearing damage. They and I recognise the importance of training, but carrying out continuous manoeuvres over populated areas when we are so near to the North sea baffles them. Can the Minister assure me that he will review the training patterns in our area and take steps to reduce the impact on my residents?
Al Carns
I can assure the hon. Member that those increased training missions are to support an increased deployment across Europe, highlighting the issues, but I will meet the Minister to talk through those issues and see if we can make some slight changes.
Danny Beales (Uxbridge and South Ruislip) (Lab)
Gideon Amos (Taunton and Wellington) (LD)
The Minister for the Armed Forces (Al Carns)
The scale of the problem is truly gigantic. We have re-bought 36,000 homes. Nine out of every 10 homes will be refurbished and 14,000 homes might be completely rebuilt. We have already started on the first 1,000 that need modernising, and once that is done we will move on to the next.
Lorraine Beavers (Blackpool North and Fleetwood) (Lab)