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Buckinghamshire County Council (Filming on Highways) Bill (Lords)
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Oral Answers to Questions
(10 years, 5 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con)
1. What progress he has made on his plans to bring down the level of reoffending.
Mr Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con)
6. What progress he has made on reducing the level of reoffending.
Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)
7. What progress he has made on his plans to bring down the level of reoffending.
Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con)
9. What progress he has made on his plans to bring down the level of reoffending.
Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con)
17. What progress he has made on his plans to bring down the level of reoffending.
The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling)
We remain on track in delivering our reforms to transform rehabilitation and bring down reoffending rates. Since 1 June, the new national probation service and community rehabilitation companies have been working together to manage offenders. The competition for new owners of the 21 community rehabilitation companies will conclude later this year.
Henry Smith
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that answer. What progress has his Department made in establishing a network of resettlement prisons?
Chris Grayling
We are on track to establish the network of resettlement prisons later this year to coincide with the commencement of the mentoring and supervision of under-12-month offenders. This part of our reforms is enormously important. It will mean that offenders will spend the last few months of their sentence in or just outside the geographic area into which they will be released in order to ensure that we have a proper through-the-gate service to plan, prepare and implement arrangements for their release.
Chris Grayling
I can confirm that arrangements were put in place in the Offender Rehabilitation Act 2014 to ensure that there is a statutory obligation to make arrangements for women. We want to ensure that both men and women have full access to through-the-gate support and preparations for release. The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice, my right hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes), is working on a number of innovative projects in the women’s estate to ensure that we do the best possible job of preparing women for release and deal with their particular circumstances, especially when they have young children and families.
Rehman Chishti
In a written answer, the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, my hon. Friend the Member for Kenilworth and Southam (Jeremy Wright),confirmed that the top five repeat offences include theft, assault, drink-driving, criminal damage and drug possession. What steps are the Government taking to address those repeat offences?
Chris Grayling
One of the key changes we are pushing through in the Criminal Justice and Courts Bill, which is currently in the other place, will ensure that repeat cautions are not used in the routine way they have been in the past. My view is that if somebody systematically commits a particular offence they should be brought quickly before the courts. Although a caution might initially be appropriate, it is certainly not a tool that should be used again and again.
Stephen Mosley
Has my right hon. Friend made any recent estimates of the cost of reoffending both in financial terms and in terms of the harm it does to society?
Chris Grayling
The official National Audit Office estimate is that about £13 billion a year is spent by our nation as a whole on dealing with the consequences of reoffending. Reoffending is now a particularly significant part of our national crime picture. We have seen crime rates and the number of first-time entrants to the criminal justice system fall, so more and more of our problem is with reoffending and that is why it is such a priority for us.
Fiona Bruce
What progress is being made on the provision of mentoring to help reduce reoffending?
Chris Grayling
I am very much of the view that mentoring is an important part of the way we support former offenders as they come through and leave the prison system. It is essential that we help them get their lives back together again, particularly given the fact that many of them come from the most difficult of backgrounds. I am encouraged by the number of voluntary sector organisations that have expressed an interest in and put their names forward for the transforming rehabilitation programme. The voluntary sector will play an extremely important part in the way things develop in the future.
Meg Munn (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab/Co-op)
When did the Secretary of State last meet the Secretary of State for Health to discuss mental health services and drug services? They are under pressure in many areas and it is vital to follow that up in order to support people coming out of prison by ensuring that they have access to those services.
Chris Grayling
I completely agree with the hon. Lady. The last conversation I had with the Health Secretary about this was a week ago. We intend to do joint work on it and I see it as my Department’s next big priority. It is something we have to tackle and to tackle effectively.
Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)
My constituent Gwen MacDonald has worked for more than 20 years in the probation service in Sheffield. When she asked why she had not been selected to move with the national probation service—she was to move to one of the new companies instead—when someone who had been in the service for only six months had been selected, she was told that it was because the selection was done by drawing names from a hat. Does that not show an utterly shambolic approach to probation? Does it not say everything about this Government’s approach, and what is the Secretary of State going to do about it?
Chris Grayling
What the hon. Gentleman says is absolute nonsense. Names were not drawn from a hat. There was a carefully constructed process of selection and a proper appeal mechanism for those who were unhappy with where they had been allocated.
John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab)
Recorded rates of reoffending are going to plummet in Bassetlaw because police cells have shut, there are fewer police, and now 800 years of local justice are to be ended by getting rid of the criminal court. Does the Secretary of State not worry that he will wake up one night with destroying local justice on his conscience? What is he going to do to ensure that we can have reoffenders prosecuted locally in Bassetlaw?
Chris Grayling
I am not aware of the individual circumstances of the hon. Gentleman’s local court, but I can tell him that any changes being made to the listing procedures in our courts in Bassetlaw are being made at the instigation of local committees, local magistrates and other representatives of the justice system, who are taking a decision in the best interests of the area.
Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab)
It is important that we reduce reoffending so that we have fewer victims of crime, but far too many victims are being failed by our criminal justice system. Yesterday, a serial victim of domestic abuse was almost forced to disclose her safe address during a court hearing; she was saved only when the local Member of Parliament intervened. Months have passed since the Government blocked our proposals to prevent such cases from happening. When is the Secretary of State going to protect victims with a proper victims law?
Chris Grayling
The Opposition always talk about laws. What we have is a victims code, which was put in place last year and was widely welcomed by victims’ groups. We are also following innovative new approaches, such as the scheme being trialled now to protect vulnerable witnesses by keeping them outside the cordon of the courtroom. I am always open to ideas about how we can improve the situation. Victims are a priority and will continue to be so.
Mr David Ward (Bradford East) (LD)
As an avid reader of the Bradford Telegraph & Argus the Secretary of State will know that 104 people are driving on the streets of Bradford who have amassed 12 or more points on their licence—some have as many as 20. Does he believe that that is an acceptable state of affairs? Is he worried about this rate of serial reoffending in Bradford?
Chris Grayling
It is of course utterly unacceptable that that is the case. We are in the process of both tightening up and looking at further ways to tighten up our driving laws. The Criminal Justice and Courts Bill now contains provisions to deal with disqualified drivers and we are reviewing other aspects of the motoring system, to ensure that it is acting appropriately and justice is being done. We shall certainly take account of the experience in Bradford in that review.
Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab)
How does the Secretary of State propose to reduce reoffending when, at the last count, workshops in HMP Risley in my constituency had been closed on 110 occasions because of a shortage of staff? He knows full well that one of the best ways to prevent reoffending is training and education, so when is he going to get a grip and make sure that there are enough prison officers available to deliver that?
Chris Grayling
We have increased the number of hours of work being done each year in our prisons by about 2.5 million, and we intend to continue to do that. We are in the process of doubling the amount of education available to young people in the youth estate, and the hon. Lady knows that Warrington has such a facility at Thorn Cross prison. We intend to continue to identify ways to deliver purposeful activity in prisons, so that people have the best chance of not reoffending.
Heather Wheeler (South Derbyshire) (Con)
2. What factors the Parole Board took into account in deciding to release on parole Keith Williams who was convicted of rape in 1999.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Jeremy Wright)
As my hon. Friend knows, the Parole Board is independent of Government, but in all cases where the board has the power to direct release it issues guidance to its members on the range of factors to be taken into account in making an assessment of risk.
Heather Wheeler
Why was it that after his first Parole Board hearing, Keith Williams was denied parole, and after his second hearing, armed with the same facts, he was given it? Is it not worrying that two different groups of people can come to completely polar-opposite conclusions?
Jeremy Wright
I understand entirely my hon. Friend’s concerns about the case, and my sympathy and, I know, hers goes to the victim of Keith Williams who is her constituent. I understand the position in this case to be that a mistake was made in the first instance by those within the Ministry of Justice, for which I apologise, regarding the disclosure of the victim impact statement to the defendant and his solicitors; but the second time the matter was considered by the Parole Board, the board received different information, including a psychological report it had not seen before. My hon. Friend will understand that, because the board is independent and reaches its own conclusions, I cannot undo what it has decided. What I will do is make sure that the maximum reassurance over the licence conditions that were imposed is provided to her constituent.
Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)
3. What the Government’s strategy is for the future of the probation service.
Mr Nicholas Brown (Newcastle upon Tyne East) (Lab)
19. What progress he has made on changes to the provision of probation services.
The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling)
Reoffending rates remain unacceptably high, particularly among short-sentenced offenders. By bringing in a diverse market of providers, paying by results for reductions in reoffending, and extending rehabilitation to all offenders leaving custody, we can bring down these reoffending rates. We are on track to deliver these essential reforms by 2015.
Nia Griffith
What reports has the Secretary of State received of cases going unsupervised since the 21 community rehabilitation companies were formed on 1 June? If he has received any such reports, what does he intend to do about them?
Chris Grayling
We have been bedding in the new system over the past month. I have been monitoring carefully what is happening. For example, the level of recalls has not changed significantly as a result of the changes. We are pushing ahead with the changes, and the organisational changes in particular, while the probation service is in the public sector to ensure that we can iron out the inevitable teething problems that accompany such a change. I am confident that good progress is being made, and public safety remains our No. 1 priority.
Mr Nicholas Brown
What is the Secretary of State’s latest estimate of the costs of his disastrous reorganisation of the probation service?
Chris Grayling
As a result of the reforms to the probation service, the criminal justice system will save money in the coming years as reoffending is brought down. It has for a long time been a travesty that those who go to jail for less than 12 months receive no supervision, support or mentoring at all when they leave. If we could just bring reoffending levels among that group down closer to the rates of those who do receive support and supervision, we would see a massive reduction in the costs of our justice system.
Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con)
Integrated offender management, working between the police and probation, is a proven way of helping to reduce reoffending and improving the work of the probation service. What is my right hon. Friend doing to bring the role of police and crime commissioners closer together with that of the probation service?
Chris Grayling
In the tendering process we required the bidders to take into account and demonstrate how they would reflect the local policing and police and crime commissioner priorities to ensure that we have a joined-up system. In a world of payment by results, if a local integrated offender management system is working well, it would be crazy for those involved in probation not to seek to take part in it if it would reduce crime levels, reduce reoffending and help them improve what they do.
Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD)
What is the Secretary of State doing to retain expertise and local knowledge in the probation service during these changes?
Chris Grayling
We have been working very hard to ensure that we have a new strong leadership team. I am encouraged by the group of people who have come forward to take leadership roles in both the national probation service and the CRCs. Many of the existing chief executives have moved into those new positions. We also have a new generation of leaders who have emerged from the next rung down. From what I see on the ground, they are already delivering strong leadership and a sense of direction.
Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab)
Listening to the Secretary of State, one would think there was nothing at all to worry about. Unfortunately, already we have seen lost files and staff unable to access information; charities are pulling out; and four of the mutuals intending to bid for services collapsed last week. Given all these problems, it seems pretty clear that even if he will not—I know he will not—abandon his plans altogether, a delay to the project would be the safest and perhaps the wisest thing to do. Will the Secretary of State please revise his timetable and resist the temptation to press ahead regardless of the risk to the public?
Chris Grayling
I keep hearing from the Opposition about the need to delay and to amend the timetable. We are spending most of the second half of this year, from the start of June through to the end of the year, making sure that the new system beds in properly, and we are dealing, in the public sector, with the teething problems that will inevitably arise. That is entirely consistent with what the hon. Lady is asking for; it is what we are doing.
Mr Rob Wilson (Reading East) (Con)
4. What steps he is taking to tackle the perception that people taking voluntary action for the public good can run the risk of being sued for negligence.
The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling)
We want people to feel able to take action for the public good without worrying about being sued if something goes wrong. We have therefore introduced the Social Action, Responsibility and Heroism Bill to provide reassurance that if that does happen the court will take full account of the context and the fact that they were acting for the benefit of society. [Interruption.] I hear the hon. Member for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter) saying that it is rubbish, so he is opposed to clamping down on the health and safety culture and to backing our citizens. I would rather be where I stand than where he stands.
Mr Wilson
The Secretary of State is absolutely right. There is a growing perception that people risk being sued for things like clearing snow from their path, leading a school trip or helping in an emergency situation. I know he would agree that the Government should protect everyday heroes in our constituencies who get involved in such things. What further steps would help to address these important issues and the lack of common sense that people think takes place in the system at the moment?
Chris Grayling
As the Bill moves through the House and on to the statute book, I hope every hon. Member will make their constituents aware of the change that we are pushing through. But there is another important part of the Bill that my hon. Friend has not mentioned, which is the responsibility piece—the ability for us to provide a deterrent to an employee who tries it on in the face of a responsible employer who has done the right thing, when someone in their employment has done something stupid and still tries to sue. As part of our long-term economic plan, I want to see those responsible employers protected against spurious claims, and that is what the Bill will do.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
The Minister will know of my great interest in a proper system of citizenship training in this country and citizen service. Given the recent statement by a senior officer from Manchester that it was a dangerous place to be after a certain time of night at the weekends, surely the officer is not suggesting that volunteers should replace policemen.
Chris Grayling
I noted those comments with a little disappointment, because as far as I can see, incidents of crime and antisocial behaviour are falling not rising. If there is a particular problem in Manchester, that is clearly something that the police and crime commissioner there will have to deal with. However, I am encouraged that throughout the country our communities are becoming safer, not more dangerous.
Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con)
5. What steps he is taking to ensure that there are sufficient prison places to accommodate people who receive custodial sentences.
Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland) (Lab)
8. How many people are in prison in England and Wales.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Jeremy Wright)
As of today, there are 85,542 prisoners in England and Wales, and capacity for 86,489, providing headroom of 947 spaces. We are changing the role of prisons that we do not need for their original purpose, bringing back into use capacity we did not need in the past, and building new accommodation at four existing prisons. As a result, 2,000 additional places will have been opened by April 2015, and we will have more adult male prison places at the end of this Parliament than we inherited. In the next Parliament, we will open a new prison in Wrexham, providing a further 2,000 places.
Jason McCartney
Nineteen-year-old Craig Hepburn from Scotland was visiting Marsden in my constituency in 2012 when he was killed. One of Craig’s killers, Anthony Driver, was out on licence at the time of the offence. Anthony Driver may be able to apply for early release in November 2019, which means that he will have served only six and a half years for Craig’s manslaughter. A sheriff commented at the trial that the community was safe only when Anthony Driver was behind bars. What consideration is there of the danger prisoners pose to their local community when they are considered for early release?
Jeremy Wright
I entirely understand my hon. Friend’s concern. Of course, from what he says, the individual in question was sentenced for manslaughter. That would be a determinate sentence. The courts will decide how long the sentence should be, and the release date comes automatically, as the law stands. He will know that this Government have legislated for extended determinate sentences, where people can spend the entirety of their sentence in custody. He will also know that we are keen to reduce the incidence of automatic early release. We have already done so for very serious violent offences—for child sex offenders, for instance—but we are keen to go further.
Tom Blenkinsop
Under this Government, the use of the emergency gold command has doubled in two years, and the riot squad has been called out 60% more times. Is this not an inefficient use of resources, which is dangerous for prisoners and prison staff?
Jeremy Wright
The hon. Gentleman needs to look carefully at the figures. He is right that there have been significant increases in the number of times that help has been asked for in prisons, but the majority of those incidents are not serious. When the Tornado team is called out to serious incidents, that too is registered. That is at half the level it was in 2007 when his party was in power.
Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD)
What is my hon. Friend doing to ensure that there are sufficient prison places to allow prisoners with families to be close to them, given the proven benefits for reintegration and the preservation of family life?
Jeremy Wright
My hon. Friend is right about that. That is why we are pursuing a model of resettlement prisons so that in the closing months of the custodial part of a prisoner’s sentence, which is when resettlement is uppermost in their mind, they are in a prison close to the area into which they will be released. That is a fundamental part of the reforms we are introducing to ensure that people have the support and supervision they ought to have when they go through the prison gate and into the community so that we can reduce reoffending.
Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)
From the Minister’s earlier response, one might think that everything in the Prison Service is fine, so how many prison officers short is the system?
Jeremy Wright
We always try to provide the right number of prison officers at any given moment, and we are going through a process of what is called benchmarking to ensure that we have the right number to deliver the regime we need. It is true, of course, that there is a short-term problem following an increase in the prison population that nobody saw coming, including the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues. We are dealing with that problem by seeking to recruit prison officers who have recently left the service. That is the responsible thing to do, and we will carry on doing the responsible thing.
Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)
Can the Minister tell us how many people are currently at large, having escaped or absconded from our prisons, and how many are currently sunbathing on the roofs of our prisons? On that point, will he give us an assurance that the next time prisoners escape on to the roofs, prison officers will not hand out sun lotion as they did last week?
Jeremy Wright
I will deal with my hon. Friend’s second point first. The answer is yes; that will not happen again. We have looked very carefully at that incident to ensure that there are no so-called health and safety policies that encourage such behaviour. As he knows, I made my views about it quite clear last week. On his first point, every incident of absconding is troubling and we need to crack down on it. That is why we are increasing the penalties for those who abscond and ensuring that only the right people find themselves in open conditions in the first place. He might be reassured to know that the level of absconding is 80% lower than it was under the previous Labour Government.
Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab)
The Minister is a nice bloke, but he is giving the impression of being both complacent and out of touch. He will be aware that governors of overcrowded public prisons are being told to squeeze in more offenders without any additional resources or help. Can he confirm whether privately run prisons are taking on additional prisoners and, if so, how many, and what premium will they be charging the Government to get them out of their hole?
Jeremy Wright
Let me try to help the right hon. Gentleman with some facts. First, we certainly are asking private sector prisons to take some additional places. That is part of a contractual arrangement that is very similar to the one that was in place under his Government, which is perfectly standard business. Secondly, we are asking some prisons to take additional prisoners and asking some prisoners to share cells, which we do not think is unreasonable, in order to deal with the short-term spike that nobody anticipated. I suggest that the wrong thing would be to do as his Government did, which was to run out of prison places, then run out of police cell places, let thousands of people out early and then deal with the consequences. That is not a path we intend to take.
Mr Nick Gibb (Bognor Regis and Littlehampton) (Con)
When assessing the number of prison places, will my hon. Friend ensure that prison places in open prisons, such as Ford in my constituency, are filled only by prisoners who have been rigorously risk-assessed? Does he understand that when prisoners abscond from Ford prison and the police warn the public not to approach them because they are dangerous, that undermines confidence in that risk-assessment process?
Jeremy Wright
I do understand that, and of course it is important that we stand behind the principle of open prisons assisting in the rehabilitation of prisoners and making it less risky for the public when they are finally released, but my hon. Friend is right that only the right people should be in open prisons. We are tightening up the rules on how people move through the system into open prisons. We are sending the clearest possible message that prisoners who abscond from their sentence and abuse the trust they were given in an open prison will not get a second chance.
Andy McDonald (Middlesbrough) (Lab)
10. If he will take steps to ensure that mesothelioma victims do not have to pay legal costs from their damages. When the Government’s no win, no fee reforms apply to mesothelioma claims, it will be up to claimants’ lawyers whether they wish to charge their clients a success fee. There is no requirement for them to do so.
Andy McDonald
Given the revelation of the secret agreement between the Government and the Association of British Insurers to stitch up victims of mesothelioma, and the pathetic attempt to cover the tracks, will the Minister confirm his opposition to any non-transparent agreements or arrangements between the Government and commercial third parties that potentially negatively impact on mesothelioma sufferers’ compensation?
Mr Vara
First, I put on the record the hon. Gentleman’s deep interest in this issue; he secured an Adjournment debate about it earlier this year, to which I responded. As for the so-called secret deal with the insurance industry, may I just say that there was no secret deal?
Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con)
One of the factors that drives up costs is the problem of discovering documents relating to medical and HMRC records. What discussions is my hon. Friend having with other Departments to make sure that we can speed up the process of disclosure?
Mr Stephen Hepburn (Jarrow) (Lab)
Does it not tell us everything we want to know about this nasty Government—doing a rotten deal with Tory funders in the City to the detriment of dying people?
Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)
11. What assessment he has made of the potential effect on jobs in Newport of the privatisation of Ministry of Justice shared services.
The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling)
The Ministry of Justice is entering into detailed discussions with Shared Services Connected Ltd regarding future delivery of its back office administration services. Subject to contract, the majority of Ministry of Justice shared services staff, including those at Newport, will transfer to SSCL under TUPE. Their jobs will be protected in their current location for at least 12 months from the date of transfer, expected to be in mid-October 2014.
Paul Flynn
Shared services in Newport have been a brilliant success, saving at least £10 million a year for the country. Steria has wasted £56 million without providing a report of any use. Are my constituents right to go on strike and feel anger against an ingrate Government who reward failure and punish success?
Chris Grayling
I very much regret the fact that the Government set about a path that led to that £56 million write-off—I mean the Government in office when the contract first started, before the 2010 general election.
Let me say to the hon. Gentleman and those staff in Newport, who have done a good job for us and will continue to do a good job for the services we provide across Government in the future: the reality is that we are having to take difficult decisions. The hon. Gentleman is part of a party that aspires to be in government in nine months’ time. That party needs to realise that if it is—God forbid—elected next year, it will have to take difficult decisions as well. It does not appear to have realised that.
David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)
Will the Minister confirm that there will be absolutely no offshoring of jobs as a result of the process, that jobs are safe for the next 12 months at the very least and that he and his senior officials, who have been very willing to discuss the issue with me in a calm fashion, will continue to be open to Members of Parliament with real concerns?
Chris Grayling
I give my hon. Friend that latter assurance absolutely categorically. Let me address the issue of offshoring. In my previous job, I said on the record that I did not want Departments that I ran to offshore UK jobs. My position on that has not changed.
John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)
The question concerning the constituents of my hon. Friend the Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) is not about which Government awarded the original contract to Steria; it is about whether, having wasted £56 million, a company should be rewarded with a contract double the size. Which Minister in their right mind would reward failure in that way?
Chris Grayling
The contract was awarded through the Cabinet Office as a result of a proper procurement process, and appropriate legal advice was taken.
Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab)
A total of £56 million has been wasted by this Government, rewarding failure, as my hon. Friend the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) said, by one of the Secretary of State’s pet foreign private providers while offshoring hundreds of jobs to India. Why does he not face up to his responsibilities? He is right about one thing: as recently as February he told my hon. Friend the Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Katy Clark):
“I have a track record of saying that I do not believe in offshoring UK jobs”.—[Official Report, 4 February 2014; Vol. 575, c. 131.]
He is saying one thing and doing another.
Chris Grayling
The hon. Gentleman clearly wrote that question before I answered the previous ones. Let me be clear again: the difficult decision that we had to take about the write-off was taken about a project launched by the previous Labour Government. As I said a moment ago, my position on offshoring has not changed.
Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)
12. What steps his Department is taking to return foreign national prisoners to their home countries to serve their sentences. 15. What steps he is taking to increase the number of convicted foreign prisoners returned to their home country.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Jeremy Wright)
We are working hard to negotiate compulsory prisoner transfer arrangements with high-volume countries and have recently signed agreements with Albania and Nigeria and a memorandum of understanding with Somaliland.
Progress in transferring prisoners under the European Union prisoner transfer agreement is slower than I would like but we are starting to see the number of transfers increase as more countries implement the agreement. All foreign national offenders sentenced to custody are referred to the Home Office for it to consider deportation at the earliest possible opportunity.
Keith Vaz
Does the Minister share my concern that there are 10,695 foreign nationals in our prisoners, costing the taxpayer almost a third of a billion pounds a year? The top three countries are Poland, Jamaica and Ireland. Will he outline to the House what the difficulties are in convincing our allies to take back their own citizens? Would it help to speed up the process if nationality was declared at sentence?
Jeremy Wright
On the last point, we are in favour of all process improvements we can make, starting at sentence and working on through the system. The right hon. Gentleman is right that we face many difficulties. One of the most significant that we have discovered is that individual prisoners make legal challenges to deportation and transfer, many of which are based on human rights legislation. We therefore need to look again at that legislation to determine what we might be able to do to move things along more quickly.
The right hon. Gentleman will know that the Immigration Act 2014 gives us more opportunities to do that. It restricts the number of challenges individual foreign national offenders have and ensures that in some cases they can register their appeal and have it dealt with after being deported, not before. There are a number of measures that we can pursue.
Mr Nuttall
My constituents in Bury, Ramsbottom and Tottington will be pleased to hear of the action the Minister has taken, but with one in eight prisoners a convicted foreign criminal we still need to do a lot more, particularly about those prisoners who refuse to be returned because of human rights claims. What more can be done to get robbers, rapist and murderers, who have shown no respect for the rights of their victims, returned to their home country without claiming that their own human rights are being violated?
Jeremy Wright
I agree with my hon. Friend. It is important to look at what the Immigration Act will do. It will enable a better balance between the interests of the general public and the interests of the individual who is claiming, for example, that they have a right to a private and family life under article 8 of the European convention on human rights. As I said a moment ago, the Act will also restrict the number of appeals that individual has. But I think we can do more, and, as he knows, if the country has a Conservative Government after the next general election we will see further changes to our human rights legislation.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
If these countries will not take their nationals back why can we not send them the bill?
Jeremy Wright
As my hon. Friend knows, I think that the best thing for us to do is to send them back, but inevitably the difficulties that we have spoken of this morning will get in the way. That is why we are doing what we are. He is well aware that this Government are utterly committed on this issue. We would certainly like there to be more removals under compulsory prisoner transfer agreements. He may know, as may the House, that the number achieved under those agreements by the previous Government was not high, although it was at least a round number.
Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab)
13. If he will meet hon. Members and civic and Church leaders from Leicester and York to discuss how the reburial of the mortal remains of King Richard III can be done in a way which acknowledges King Richard’s close association with Yorkshire.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Simon Hughes)
I recognise the hon. Gentleman’s interest in this matter, but I am afraid that I cannot encourage him by suggesting that there should be a meeting. The position is very clear. The university of Leicester applied for a licence to exhume the remains. That was challenged in the courts. The administrative court decided in May that the Secretary of State was entirely correct to grant the licence and it has been given to the university of Leicester. I understand that the intention is for King Richard III to be reburied in Leicester cathedral.
Hugh Bayley
I do not want to raise the matter of the licence, but I ask the Minister, in the interests of fairness, to reconsider. It is 16 and a half months since the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, the hon. Member for Kenilworth and Southam (Jeremy Wright) said in this House that many of the points that I had raised in the debate “deserve further consideration”. On 12 March 2013 in Westminster Hall—Vol. 560 of the Official Report, column 30WH—he said:
“We would be happy to facilitate a meeting between the people”
from York and Leicester to discuss the burial arrangements. Those arrangements need to be discussed.
A commitment was given by the Government. For the past 16 and a half months, they have said that they could not act on that commitment because the matter was before the courts. It is no longer before the courts. Will the Government therefore fulfil the commitment that they made, so that there is an inclusive funeral that does not exclude people from the north of England, who have strong feelings about the matter?
Mr Speaker
The question is too long. There will not be much left of the remains.
Simon Hughes
These remains have certainly occupied the attention of the House for a long time already. The hon. Gentleman is right that the offer of a meeting was made, but there was then a court challenge. The court challenge failed and the position is now absolutely clear: the licence was applied for properly and the university of Leicester can proceed. There will not be a meeting to facilitate that, but I am sure that the university and Leicester cathedral will ensure that other people’s interests are taken into consideration. King Richard III was the King of all England and did not just have particular interests in certain parts of the country.
Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)
Will the Minister join me in paying tribute to all those who have been involved in the recovery of the remains of Richard III? As the House will know, he was discovered under a car park in the city of Leicester. I am very pleased that, following the judicial review, he will remain, long stay, in that city.
Simon Hughes
My hon. Friend is quite right that it was a car park with an unusual interest. There was a belief that Richard III was buried in the grounds of the Greyfriars church. His body was found. The tradition is that bodies are buried in the nearest Christian church that is appropriate. As the MP for the area where the Rose theatre was discovered, I know that one can never underestimate the exciting things that can be discovered by good archaeologists.
Mr Speaker
We are all now better informed. We are grateful to the Minister.
Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)
As the Minister said, Richard III was the King of all England, not just of York or Yorkshire. Is he aware that the Dean and Chapter of Leicester cathedral see it as their responsibility to rebury the remains of King Richard and to commemorate his memory on behalf of the whole nation, and not just for Leicester or York?
Simon Hughes
I have every confidence that the Dean and Chapter of Leicester cathedral will do that job for the nation. I understand that they intend to apply for an extension so that it may be done in the spring of next year. I believe that it will be a great credit to Leicester and will bring great joy to the people of Leicestershire that a King of England is buried in their county.
Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab)
14. What recent assessment he has made of the adequacy of provision of interpreters and translation services in court.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Shailesh Vara)
There have been dramatic improvements in performance in the last two years and we continue to manage contracts to ensure that the improvements continue. We appointed independent assessors to carry out a review of interpreter quality standards earlier this year and look forward to receiving their recommendations shortly.
Valerie Vaz
The reality is that a constituent of mine who was sitting on a jury had to have the court adjourned for four days while it looked for a translator. Why have the payments to Capita Translation and Interpreting increased from £7 million to £15 million over the past two years?
Mr Vara
It is always regrettable when there are such individual circumstances, but the hon. Lady will appreciate that I cannot comment on specific cases. However, dramatic improvements in performance have occurred in the last two years and Capita routinely fills 95% of requests. On funding, I hope that she appreciates that in the first year of the contract, £15 million of British taxpayers’ money was saved.
Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con)
18. What steps his Department is taking to encourage use of mediation so that going to court is a last resort.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Simon Hughes)
This April, a statutory obligation was introduced for separating couples to consider mediation when there are children or family implications. Obviously, they do not have to go through with mediation, but it must be considered, and is supported by legal aid. Last week Sir David Norgrove produced a report for me, which I commend to my hon. Friend. It suggests that we could significantly increase the number of disputes that go to mediation—currently, about 30% go to court—and that 30% could probably be resolved by mediation in the future.
Peter Aldous
Court orders for access arrangements for young children are a snapshot of the circumstances prevailing at a particular time, but such circumstances change rapidly as children grow up and their parents’ relationships and personal situations change. As a return to court to vary a court order can be harrowing, divisive and costly, will the Minister assure me that the Government will redouble their efforts to make mediation a meaningful alternative?
Simon Hughes
We are doing absolutely all we can to do that. We have consulted with the mediation industry and done publicity locally and regionally. The Government have an obligation to ensure that, whenever possible, disputes do not take place in public, as that exposes the private lives of families and children in particular. We believe that we can significantly reduce, down to 5%, the number of cases that go to court, and significantly increase—up to 30%, we hope—the number of cases resolved by mediation. We will do absolutely everything we can, and I am sure that we will see progress over the months ahead.
Sarah Champion (Rotherham) (Lab)
T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.
The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling)
I wish to inform the House about the real progress that we are making on judicial diversity, and pay tribute to the work being done by the Judicial Appointments Commission on increasing the number of women in the judiciary. I am pleased that the latest statistics from the commission show that nearly half of all appointments are being taken up by women. There are now 21 women in the High Court—the highest figure ever—and following recent appointments, 26 women are being added to the circuit bench, and 29 to the district bench. A clear picture is emerging that the proportion of women in the judiciary is increasing year on year. That good work needs to continue, but I am pleased with the progress.
I am pleased that today the equal merit provision comes into force: where two or more candidates are of equal merit, selection can be based on gender or race for the purpose of increasing judicial diversity. I congratulate the commission on its work, and reiterate the commitment that I as Lord Chancellor, the Government, the Lord Chief Justice, and the chair of the Judicial Appointments Commission share in achieving a more diverse judiciary that reflects the society it serves.
Sarah Champion
It has come to light that Sodexo plans to bid for contracts to run 12 of the 21 probation areas. Does the Minister feel comfortable in trusting such vital work to a company that cut its staff budget so drastically that prisoners in Northumberland were able to riot?
Chris Grayling
First, I cannot comment on the nature of the organisations that have submitted bids. We have a good mix of organisations from a wide range of different circumstances across the country, I am pleased with the progress, and we will make further information available in due course. I have been to the prison in Northumberland since the trouble there, and I have no reason to believe that the event was connected to the public or private status of the prison—my understanding from staff is that it was started by a number of prisoners who were upset that their working day had been extended by an hour.
Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD)
T3. We have seen another celebrity convicted of a string of appalling child sex offences—someone who used and abused their position and their power. Is it not time that we had an overarching inquiry into the culture at that time and those historical sex offences, so that we can bring closure and learn lessons for the future?
Mr Speaker
Order. Of course, no sentencing has yet taken place—a fact of which I am sure the Minister is well aware, and will frame his response as he thinks fit.
The Minister for Policing, Criminal Justice and Victims (Damian Green)
I am grateful to you, Mr Speaker; I was about to make that point. I would also make the general point that there is clearly a large number of important criminal investigations going on at the moment, so it would be sensible to let them take their course before we decide what it is best to do next in this important and sensitive area.
Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab)
We have been saying for a while that Government policies would lead to a prison crisis, and they have. The wrong sort of offenders are being sent to the wrong sort of prison. That is not just our view but that of the hon. Member for Bognor Regis and Littlehampton (Mr Gibb). When Michael Wheatley absconded last month and allegedly committed further offences, the Justice Secretary said that he would bring in new rules to prevent such occurrences from happening again. Today, the media are reporting that two men—one a killer, the other serving an indeterminate sentence—have absconded from Spring Hill prison. The police have warned the public not to approach the pair. Why is the Justice Secretary finding it so difficult to keep the public safe?
Mr Speaker
This is a matter of particular interest to me as that prison is in my own constituency, as the Secretary of State might know.
Chris Grayling
Mr Speaker, I can reassure you that the proportion of offenders who are sent to open prisons and who subsequently abscond is 20% of what it was when Labour was in power a decade ago. My question to the right hon. Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan)is—[Interruption.] Over the past few weeks, as this has become a more high-profile issue—[Interruption.] I do not believe that it is sensible for this country to scrap open prisons. I believe it is sensible to have tougher risk assessment procedures and not to transfer people to open conditions if they have previously absconded, and we have put those changes in place in the past couple of weeks. To listen to the right hon. Gentleman, anyone would think that he believed in scrapping open prisons altogether. Actually, they are helping to rehabilitate offenders. They need to be there; they are there for prisoners who are in the last few months of their sentence. Almost everyone who goes to an open prison behaves well and is able to be released safely at the end of their sentence. Is he actually saying that that should change?
Sadiq Khan
Nice soundbite, but people are absconding after the Secretary of State has made his changes. So much for keeping the public safe. Let me move on to the subject of temporary licence. Not only are the wrong sort of offenders being sent to open prisons, but the wrong sort are also being released on temporary licence. The use of these ROTL procedures has increased by 24% since 2010, with breaches of licence arrangements up by a staggering 57% in that period. Can the Secretary of State confirm that, in 2012, this Government relaxed the rules on temporary licence, and that PSI 21/2012 accepted that
“there will be an increase in the number of ROTL applications”?
Chris Grayling
The number of prisoners absconding from open prisons and while on temporary licence is a fraction of what it was a decade ago. I keep going back to that point. It is all well and good for Labour Members to rail against things when they are in opposition, but they now purport to be a potential party of government and yet they have nothing positive to say on how they would manage the system differently. I have tightened the regime and introduced tougher penalties for those who abscond. If the Opposition think that we should close down open prisons altogether, they should say so.
Jesse Norman (Hereford and South Herefordshire) (Con)
T5. Hereford county court is a highly effective and important local institution. However, there is a break clause in the lease for the court premises for this next year. If the court has to move, has the Secretary of State considered co-locating it with other public services in Hereford? Can he reassure local people that, whatever happens to the premises, Hereford will continue to have a county court?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Shailesh Vara)
I can tell my hon. Friend that Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service is aware of the break clause in the lease for Hereford county court’s premises for next year. The Courts and Tribunals Service continues to keep the use of its estate under review to ensure that it meets operational needs.
Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab)
T2. Judge Robert Martin has heavily criticised the Government’s welfare and justice changes, saying that the work capability assessment is in a state of “virtual collapse”, and that the loss of legal aid funding“has severely reduced the help and support available to claimants to pursue their legal rights”.Why does the Justice Secretary think that it is acceptable to deny access to justice to people who are sick, disabled or poor?
Mr Vara
I think we need to put things into perspective here. Before the reductions to legal aid were made, Britain had one of the most expensive legal aid systems in the world, costing the taxpayer £2 billion. After the reductions have gone through, £1.5 billion will still go towards the legal aid system. That is a lot of money; it is one of the largest amounts being paid into any legal aid system in the world, and I can assure the hon. Lady that £1.5 billion buys a lot of legal aid.
Mr Rob Wilson (Reading East) (Con)
T7. Will my hon. Friend the Prisons Minister update my constituents on his Department’s success or otherwise in regard to the sale of Reading prison?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Jeremy Wright)
As my hon. Friend knows, we do not decide what the future use of the site will be as that will be a matter for the local authority. I am always keen, however, to keep parliamentary colleagues updated at key points in the process, such as when a site goes on the market and when we have reached the point of negotiating successfully with a preferred bidder. I will of course do the same for him, and if I can give him any more information I will seek to do so.
Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab)
T4. In a written answer on 6 May, the Minister of State, Ministry of Justice, the right hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) listed several domestic violence programmes for women in prison. His answer included some programmes that I am told do not actually exist. Can he tell me how many women are waiting, or being transferred to other prisons, to get the programmes they need? If he does not know now, will he write to me with the answer?
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Simon Hughes)
I do not have the figures with me and I will of course write to the hon. Lady with the answer. From my visits to women’s prisons, I know that that is an issue that is on the agenda of every single governor, is regularly discussed with the prisoners themselves and is regarded as an extremely high priority. I will supply the facts she needs and would be happy to meet her to discuss the matter.
Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con)
T8. I recall a time under the previous Government when few prisoners did meaningful work in prisons and the interests of victims were left at the prison gates. Can the Minister provide an update on how much money has been raised from the implementation of the Prisoners’ Earnings Act 1996 for the benefit of victims?
Jeremy Wright
I cannot do so off the top of my head, but of course I will write to my hon. Friend and give him that information. As he heard my right hon. Friend the Lord Chancellor say earlier, the number of hours worked by prisoners has increased considerably under this Government. We have made sure not just that they have more work to do, but that they are given every incentive to do that work. They will need to work or engage in other types of productive activity if they want to earn their privileges, and they will no longer be able to sit in their cells and watch television all day.
Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab)
T6. The director of Ministry of Justice Shared Services has said that any proposals to offshore MOJ work in the future would need specific agreement from the Ministry. Can the Minister confirm today, for the benefit of staff in Newport and Bootle, that he will give no such agreement?
Chris Grayling
To reiterate what I said earlier, my views on outsourcing UK jobs are on record. I made them clear when I was an Employment Minister, and my position has not changed.
Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con)
T9. Stafford prison has a very good record in securing paid work for prisoners to carry out, including reshoring work from the far east. What support is he providing to others across the estate to continue that good progress?
Jeremy Wright
My hon. Friend is right. Reshoring is an effective way to provide more commercial work for prisoners to do, giving them not just purposeful activity but some of the skills and training they will need to earn a law-abiding life outside prison. In terms of what more we can do, he may know that in 2012 we set up an organisation called ONE3ONE Solutions which assists us to negotiate more commercial contracts and provide more work in prisons.
Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)
Staff at the Ministry of Justice Shared Services department in Bootle face privatisation, as do those in the constituencies of my hon. Friends the Members for Newport East (Jessica Morden) and for Newport West (Paul Flynn). Given the shambolic write-off of £56 million on a previous Steria contract and the job cuts that followed the last privatisation the minute the 12-month moratorium ran out, what confidence can my constituents and those of my hon. Friends have that the privatisation of Shared Services will not cost them not only their civil servant status, but their jobs?
Chris Grayling
We are going through a complex process of change to deliver these services across the Government, rather than Department by Department. I cannot give long-term guarantees for the future. I have explained what the situation will be for the next 12 months and I have explained my position on the offshoring issue.
Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD)
In the area of unpaid employment tribunal awards, I welcome the commitment from the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills to creating a penalty for those who do not pay awards handed down. Does the Minister agree, and will he commit the MOJ to supporting the proposal?
Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)
I thank the Prisons Minister for meeting me and Billy Bragg recently to discuss the issue of guitars in prisoners’ cells. I welcome the fact that the Minister confirmed that his decision will be taken on the security advice that he receives. Has he had that advice, has it told him that this is a manageable risk, and when does he expect to be able to make an announcement?
Jeremy Wright
May I, in turn, thank the hon. Gentleman for the way in which he conducted that meeting and for the very helpful information he was able to provide to me on that occasion? I am doing what I said to him that I would do, which is to look carefully at the security advice to ensure that it is robust, and that we make a sensible decision on the point he has asked me to consider. I will do that as quickly as I can.
Maria Miller (Basingstoke) (Con)
Posting revenge pornography on the internet is an appalling crime. Does the Secretary of State agree that the law needs to change to ensure that perpetrators are properly punished, and that the Criminal Justice and Courts Bill, which is currently being considered in the other place, could provide the Government with an opportunity to do just that?
Chris Grayling
I thank my right hon. Friend both for her question and for the contribution she made in the debate last week. She has done a very important job in raising this issue, which is clearly becoming a bigger problem in our society. What I say to her today is that the Government are very open to having a serious discussion, with a view to taking appropriate action in autumn if we can identify the best way of doing so.
Mrs Emma Lewell-Buck (South Shields) (Lab)
Last month, Judge Rook argued that all advocates taking on sexual offence cases should be required to undertake specialist training, so that vulnerable witnesses are questioned in a fair and appropriate way. Does the Minister agree that this will protect witnesses, particularly children, from the distress of harsh cross-examination? Will he set out what discussions he has had with the Bar Standards Board on this issue?
Damian Green
There are a number of interesting ideas on the very important issue of how we protect vulnerable witnesses. As the hon. Lady will know and I am sure will welcome, we have now introduced a pilot scheme whereby young, vulnerable witnesses do not have to go through the whole courtroom ordeal. In three courts, they can now be interviewed beforehand and the interview recorded and played back to the jury. That is one of a number of ideas we are taking forward to ensure that young and vulnerable witnesses in particular are given better protection than they have ever had before.
Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con)
As was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, Southgate (Mr Burrowes), meaningful work and training has an important role to play in reducing recidivism and encouraging rehabilitation. In developing future policy, will the Minister consider the success of the social investment bond at Her Majesty’s prison Peterborough?
Jeremy Wright
The answer to that is yes. As my hon. Friend knows, the excellent work in Peterborough has formed a large part of our thinking in rolling out our transforming rehabilitation reforms across the country. What is being done there is a very good example of what can be achieved if rehabilitation is followed through out of the gate and into the community.
Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab)
The Minister will know I have grave concerns, which are shared by the chief inspector of prisons, about the negative impact of overcrowding in Durham and in other prisons in my constituency. What specific steps is the Minister taking to alleviate this problem?
Chris Grayling
It is worth putting on the record the fact that the most recent figures show that the level of overcrowding in our prisons has fallen, not risen. Of course, there are challenges in parts of the prison estate—
Chris Grayling
Go and look at the figures. I can assure the shadow Secretary of State that the most recent figures show a reduction in the level of overcrowding in prisons. We are not in the position, as the previous Government were, of having to let prisoners out early because we have run out of space in our prisons.
Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)
Essex has one of the highest rates of domestic violence in the country. My right hon. Friend will be aware of two tragic murders that occurred in Harlow. On speaking to the parents of one of the victims, I was told that they felt that the support they were given after their daughter’s horrific death was inadequate, with the Crown Prosecution Service and others appearing to be poorly trained, and with inconsistent service from Victim Support. What assurances can my right hon. Friend give those parents that families will, in future, receive proper support when they have been victims of crime?
Damian Green
I am, of course, aware of the tragic case to which my hon. Friend refers. He will know that the Home Secretary commissioned Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary to look at how the police respond to domestic violence, and action will be taken on that. He is right that other parts of the criminal justice system, including the CPS and the courts, need to take great care in how they treat victims and bereaved families. I know he has been in correspondence with the Minister with responsibility for crime reduction at the Home Office, and he is taking a close personal interest in how to progress.
Mr Speaker
Order. I am sorry to disappoint remaining colleagues, but we must move on.
Rail Link from Penzance to Paddington
Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)
I rise to present a petition on behalf of more than 3,000 petitioners from west Cornwall, which calls for a resilience rail service between Penzance and Paddington. It was largely precipitated because of concern about inadequate investment in that service and also, of course, because of the disruption caused to the service by the February storms in both Penzance and Dawlish. It promotes major investment in the sleeper upgrade, improved signalling and a train care centre at Long Rock in my constituency—something for which we have campaigned for a very long time and on which we expect an announcement shortly.
The first petitioner is Janet Trudgeon of Rosehill, Marazion, and the petition reads as follows:
The Petition of residents of St Ives constituency and others,
Declares that the Petitioners believe that if the Government can spend up to £50 billion on high speed rail investment to the north (HS2), the people of Cornwall should not be denied the investment necessary for a resilient rail service to Paddington.
The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to do what is necessary to make sure that the rail link from Penzance to Paddington is one that passengers can rely on.
And the Petitioners remain, etc.
[P001362]
Israeli Teenagers (Abduction and Murder)
(10 years, 5 months ago)
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Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
(Urgent Question): To ask the Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office, if he will make a statement on the effect that the murder of three Israeli teenagers abducted by Palestinians will have on the middle east peace process.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Hugh Robertson)
I visited Israel and the west bank from 17 to 19 June last week, just after the kidnapping of the three Israeli teenagers. The whole House will share our sadness that last night the Israeli Government confirmed that they had recovered their bodies in the west bank. As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has said, this is an appalling act of terror. There is no reason, belief or cause that can justify the abduction and killing of innocent civilians. We send our deepest condolences to the families of Gilad Shaar, Naftali Frenkel and Eyal Yifrach.
The Government remain in close contact with both the Israeli and Palestinian authorities. The urgent priority is to hold those responsible to account under the rule of law, and we stand ready to do everything possible to help. The Home Secretary has been in Israel and the west bank this week and has had discussions with political leaders on both sides. I welcome President Abbas’s condemnations of the abduction. We are encouraging Israel and the Palestinian Authority to continue to work together to find the perpetrators. I saw evidence of that co-operation during my visit and it is vital that it continues in the days and weeks ahead. It is also vital that all parties avoid action that could escalate the situation further. All security operations must be handled with due care, restraint and a proportionate use of force.
It is too early to be clear about the full implications for the middle east peace process, but we will do our utmost, with our allies and partners, to keep open the prospects for a return to negotiations on a two-state solution, which is, and remains, the only way to resolve this conflict once and for all.
Mr Bone
I thank the Minister for that full answer. I am sure the whole House would endorse his comments about passing our sympathies and prayers to the families directly affected and also to the nation of Israel. I cannot help but reflect on what the feeling of this House would be if three teenagers from Wellingborough had been abducted and murdered by terrorists.
May I press my right hon. Friend on a few issues? It is true, I believe, that overseas aid to the Palestinian Authority has been used to provide salaries for the families of convicted Palestinian terrorists. Given the propaganda celebrating the abduction of the Israeli teenagers, should we review that? Will the Government support the Israeli Government not only in their actions to track down the perpetrators of this evil crime, but in dismantling the infrastructure of the Hamas organisation?
Does my right hon. Friend share my concern that part of the Palestinian Fatah-Hamas unity Government is a terrorist organisation that carries out such dreadful crimes? It seems completely illogical that it can be thought of as part of a democratic process. Will he also set out his concerns a little more about how this incident will affect the ongoing peace process? Unless such terrible acts of terror can be stopped, I do not see how we can move the peace process forward.
Hugh Robertson
I thank my hon. Friend for his questions and, indeed, for securing the urgent question.
On the question of salaries, as luck would have it, the Minister of State, Department for International Development, is sitting next to me, and he absolutely confirms that this is not true; it is an old rumour. The money is paid through a World Bank trust fund to vetted people, who are nominated civil servants.
As for the actions of the Israeli Government, we have had extensive consultations with the Israeli Government. We absolutely understand that this is an extraordinarily difficult time in the region and that tensions are running high. Indeed, for Members of all parties who have not been there recently, it is difficult to understand how this event has consumed Israeli society. While I was there, it was running on the tickertape 24 hours a day. It is crucial that any actions that the Israeli Government take are precisely targeted to find the perpetrators and that, in doing that, they avoid a more general escalation.
On the question of Fatah and Hamas, the technocratic Government are signed up to the Quartet principles. If anybody in that Government were an active member of Hamas, which remains a terrorist organisation, that would absolutely be the end of this Government’s dealing with them and would be a very serious matter indeed. That is not the case at the moment; they are fully signed up to the Quartet principles.
As to the effect on the peace process, it is an absolutely pivotal part of British Government policy at the moment to try to create the conditions under which the peace process can be restarted. Everything we are doing is to try to rebuild those conditions, which is absolutely to the benefit of both sides. If this situation goes on, with further settlement building on the one hand and applications to international organisations on the other, there will not be another chance. I urge all Members, with whichever side they sympathise, to do everything possible to de-escalate the situation and encourage both parties to return to the negotiating table.
Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)
I thank the Minister for his answer to the urgent question.
Today, Israel is united in grief at the appalling murders of Naftali Frenkel, Gilad Shaar and Eyal Yifrach. The whole House will unite in expressing the most profound sympathy to the families and loved ones of the murdered young men, whose photographs today convey to us the heinous crime that this is. Those of us who are parents can barely contemplate what those close to the young men are going through. It is imperative that those responsible for these crimes be brought to account, and I call on everyone to co-operate to achieve justice. This was an appalling act of terror, intended to increase the suffering, bloodshed and injustice that have too long scarred the region.
With every tragic casualty in this conflict, the prospects of peace seem ever further away, but now is the time for the international community to unite around those parties on all sides that are willing to take difficult steps to make progress towards peace. In the light of that, will the Minister set out what contact he has had with his Israeli and Palestinian counterparts in the past 24 hours? Will he set out his assessment of the impact these latest tensions are likely to have on the Palestinian unity Government and the Israeli Government’s policy towards them?
The Minister will be aware of the Israeli Government’s insistence that Hamas is responsible for the kidnapping and murder of these three innocent young men, but will he provide the British Government’s assessment of today’s claims of responsibility for the murders by the jihadist group, Supporters of the Islamic State in Jerusalem?
These are perilous times and the risk of further bloodshed is high. The US Under-Secretary-General Jeffrey Felton was right to say that both Israelis and Palestinians should exercise maximum restraint to prevent tensions from escalating further. I hope the Minister will assure us that the British Government will now seek to work with international allies to call for calm, to encourage dialogue and work towards peace in an effort to overcome this moment of great and grave danger.
Hugh Robertson
I thank the Opposition spokesman for his support and for the way in which he set out his case. We absolutely agree with him that this is a moment for exercising maximum restraint. Let me answer the hon. Gentleman’s three questions in order.
On contact with our Israeli counterparts, I have already communicated with Minister Livni, who is my direct counterpart, and I saw Minister Steinitz when I was in Israel a week ago, and he saw the Foreign Secretary when he was in this country at the end of last week. The Home Secretary has been in both Israel and the west bank for the past couple of days and has seen interlocutors on both sides. That contact is strong and ongoing.
On the impact on the Palestinian Government, this is a serious moment and I absolutely welcome President Abbas’s strong condemnation of the actions, both overnight and indeed in his speech in Riyadh a week ago. When I was in Israel, both sides acknowledged the security support that had been given by the Palestinians in the early stages of the incident.
As for who is responsible, it is too early to say. The British Government have no firm evidence, and nothing from the Islamic state in Jerusalem. It is fair to say to the hon. Gentleman, in the spirit of openness and honesty, that the Israeli Government are very clear about the fact that Hamas was responsible. When I was in Israel 10 days ago, there was some indication on the Palestinian side that that might be correct, but we have no hard evidence in London to back that up.
Alistair Burt (North East Bedfordshire) (Con)
I sometimes fear that the only thing that unites people in the region is grief for their children. Whatever may be the causes of conflict, children are never the perpetrators, and they never deserve to be the victims.
Does my right hon. Friend agree that men of violence know exactly what they are doing, and know exactly what to provoke in response? There is no justification for this wicked crime, and Israel is right to seek justice on behalf of the families, but will the Foreign and Commonwealth Office urge—even now, at such a critical time—that more effort be put into the peace process? Until this is settled, there will be another incident, and another, and another, until the men of violence get what they want, which is a conflagration that will add to the explosions in the area, and the men of peace will find that it is too late.
Hugh Robertson
I hope that, if I say that I could not have put it better myself, my right hon. Friend will take that in the right spirit, given that he did my job just before me. He is absolutely right to draw attention to the impact of this on children. As we see in conflicts across the world, they are so often the innocent victims.
My right hon. Friend has my absolute assurance that the Foreign Office will do everything possible to reinvigorate the middle east peace process. We may speculate on the many possible causes of what has happened, but the fact that renegade elements opposed to the peace process have used it to bring down that process is clearly a very likely explanation.
Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab)
I commend the Minister for his balanced response. May I ask him to send the heartfelt sympathy of, I am sure, every Member in the House—very much including myself—to the grief-stricken families of these abducted and murdered youths? What has been done to them has no conceivable justification of any kind.
Will the Minister also send our sympathy to the families of the five Palestinians whom Israeli troops murdered during their search for the missing youths in a collective punishment which has involved hundreds of arrests and the looting and ransacking of houses? Nothing whatsoever can justify the murder of these Israeli youths, but it is very important indeed to see it in the context of a conflict that will go on until there is a fair settlement.
Hugh Robertson
Absolutely. The sympathy of the Government, and indeed, I am sure, the sympathy of everyone in the House, will be with all those who have lost family members, friends and relatives in this conflict. It has often struck me, in the context of the middle east, that there cannot really be a hierarchy of victimhood, and our sympathy must be with all who have lost their lives. If this tells us anything, it is that we must renew and deepen our search for a peaceful settlement in the middle east, one that recognises the concerns of both sides. It was an absolute tragedy that, having put in so much work and effort personally, the United States Secretary of State was unable to conclude an agreement at the end of March, but that is not a reason for not trying any further, and we must deepen those efforts.
Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD)
I join the Government in expressing sympathy for the parents of the teenagers and all the people of Israel in this moment of grief, in condemning the killings unreservedly, and in welcoming their condemnation by both Israeli and Palestinian authorities. Does the Minister agree that this underlines the importance of bringing together in a peace process all parties who are prepared to engage in that process, even when the conflict has involved the ultimate tragedy of the deaths of children on both sides?
Hugh Robertson
Yes. I welcome the hon. Gentleman’s contribution; he has made a point that has been made by any others. If this proves anything, it proves that the path of violence will lead only to further escalation and more deaths of children and others across both the west bank and Israel. It proves, if proof were needed, the importance of trying to get the middle east peace process back on track, and of delivering a solution for both sides in the conflict.
Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op)
These are cold terrorist murders of three teenagers on their way home from school. What does the Minister think should be done to address the unremitting messages of hate that come from Palestinian media? They are partly responsible for this situation and are a grave impediment to peace.
Hugh Robertson
I shall give the hon. Lady an answer that draws on my personal experience. As she may know, I was a soldier for 10 years, and took part in campaigns against terrorism, and when we lose people—civilians or soldiers—in these situations, that is precisely the time when we need to show leadership and show restraint. Absolutely all efforts should be directed at finding the perpetrators but it is very important that all those actions are directed at doing that, and nothing wider.
Sir Richard Ottaway (Croydon South) (Con)
One’s heart goes out to the parents of the murdered children and to the Israeli nation which mourns its dead. This has happened just two weeks after the Palestinian unity Government have come into effect. I believe the Minister has just said that if Hamas turns out to be the perpetrator, he will reconsider the British Government’s attitude to the unity Government. Will he clarify exactly what he means by that and the likely consequences if Hamas turns out to be the perpetrator?
Hugh Robertson
Yes I will, and may I thank my right hon. Friend for the work that he and his Committee do in this area? It is important to note that the technocratic Government have absolutely signed up to the Quartet principles and, as far as we can see, no member of Hamas is part of that Government. If members of Hamas are, indeed, proved to be part of this and responsible for these actions, that would clearly be a very serious moment indeed, and we would have to examine very precisely the link between it and the technocratic Government. At this stage it is too early to set that hare running, because we do not have the full facts in front of us, nor do we have any absolute evidence as to who was responsible, so I think that has to be a question for another day.
Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab)
There was absolutely no excuse for the murder of the three Israeli teenagers in the west bank. It was an appalling crime and it is a tragedy for their families and friends. Does the Minister agree that Palestinian teenagers and children who also die, in Israeli strikes and military operations, have names, faces and families, for whom their deaths are equal tragedies? He rightly referred to the importance of the rule of law. Will he say to the House, in the appalling situation we are in at the moment, what he thinks are the responsibilities under international law of the Palestinian Authority and what are the responsibilities of the Israeli Government as an occupying power in the west bank, and will he confirm that collective punishment of the Palestinian people is a crime under international law?
Hugh Robertson
Yes, I absolutely understand why the hon. Gentleman asks that question, particularly given his role as the chairman of the all-party group on Britain-Palestine. The role of the technocratic Government is very clear. These youths were not abducted in an area that is inside their security control, but it is perfectly possible—but not yet confirmed—that the perpetrators of this crime did come from an area that was controlled by them. It is absolutely their job and responsibility to co-operate with the Israeli Government in bringing the perpetrators to justice, and it is absolutely the responsibility of the Israeli Government to ensure the action they take is precisely targeted at the perpetrators and no wider.
Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)
Thank you for granting the urgent question, Mr Speaker.
Hamas is Hamas is Hamas: it is a terrorist organisation whether it is part of the so-called unity Government or not, and Hamas has celebrated the kidnapping of these children and their murder. Surely it is now time to cut off relations with the Government given that they are co-opted with a terrorist organisation. Does my right hon. Friend agree that, far from showing restraint, the British Government should give Israel every possible assistance to take out the Hamas terrorist network so that that country can be sure that her children will be secure in the future?
Hugh Robertson
Let me answer those two questions in reverse order. The British Government will give the Israeli Government every possible assistance to find the perpetrators of this appalling crime. We have made that commitment to the Israeli Government, and I made that commitment when I was in the west bank 10 days ago. That remains the case. As far as Hamas is concerned, nobody should be under any illusions about this at all: Hamas is a terrorist organisation and remains a terrorist organisation, and one that is proscribed by the British Government. The key thing about the technocratic Government was that they signed up to the Quartet principles and renounced violence and no member of Hamas is a member of that Government.
Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op)
I welcome the Minister’s commitment to doing everything he can to support the peace process in the light of this heinous act, but can he share with the House what recent reports he has received on statements made by the new Palestinian unity Government and President Abbas on the murder of the three Israeli students?
Hugh Robertson
I did not see President Abbas when I was there 10 days ago because he was in Riyadh, where he made a speech that was unequivocal in its condemnation of what had happened. He made another statement last night along the same lines, and Israeli interlocutors whom I saw in Israel were very clear that they had received full security co-operation from the technocratic Government.
Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con)
The anger and outrage of the people of Israel at the appalling murder of these three teenagers are wholly understandable and shared here because of our special links to Israel, but equally understandable are the anger and outrage of Palestinians at the death of 1,406 children in the conflict since 2000, including 270 in Gaza under air and ground attack in 2009 alone. Would adding to this awful toll by the threatened Israeli reaction be either legal or wise?
Hugh Robertson
In a sense my hon. Friend makes the case for the reconstitution of the peace process and for everybody in this House doing everything possible to avoid an escalation and to get both parties back to the negotiating table. The death toll on both sides throughout this conflict is appalling. This is merely the latest in a long line of incidents that has tried to derail the peace process, and it proves once and for all that there is no future in violence and underlines the importance of getting both parties back to the table.
Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab)
The Israeli ex-combatants organisation Breaking the Silence responded to these murders by saying:
“We all bow our heads in mourning for the victims from both sides in the past weeks, in the hope for an end to this cycle of bloodshed and occupation.”
Does the Minister agree that that is the right response—that we should send our condolences to Israeli and Palestinian dead and their families—and that, particularly given what the Prime Minister of Israel has said about retaliation, we should stress to all sides that retaliation and escalation are not the way forward?
Hugh Robertson
In a sense the hon. Gentleman makes a point that many others have made. As I have said, it is crucial that any reaction is targeted very precisely at the perpetrators, and further bloodshed is not the way to resolve this situation.
Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con)
Thank you, Mr Speaker. I utterly condemn these foul murders, and commend the Minister for his measured responses. What is his assessment of the viability of the two-state solution in terms of the availability of land?
Mr Speaker
My sigh was explicable, as the Whip on duty has helpfully pointed out, by the embarrassment of riches from which I had to choose.
Hugh Robertson
I thank my hon. Friend for that contribution. It is difficult at a time like this, when tensions are high on both sides and there is obviously the prospect of a further conflagration. Getting the middle east peace process back on track is more difficult now than it has been for a while, as everybody would admit if they were being honest, but the situation also demonstrates why that is so important. The two-state solution, within the parameters of which everybody is aware, remains the best basis to do that. It will require a very particular formulation of land swaps, which will be difficult, as everybody is aware, but the events of the past two weeks show just why it is so important.
Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (Lab)
May I place on the record my condolences to the families involved in this tragedy? Having returned from a middle east investigation by the Select Committee on International Development, I have to say that I disagree profoundly with the Minister’s statement on DFID funding to the Palestinian Authority. We do provide funding to the PA and it is absurd to suggest that that money can be ring-fenced; the Palestinian Finance Minister confirmed to me that they do pay Palestinian prisoners in jail, depending on how long their sentences are. Will the Minister confirm that Her Majesty’s Government will support and assist the Israeli and Palestinian authorities in their search for the murderers of these three young boys?
Hugh Robertson
Let me deal with the easier part of that first. The answer to the hon. Gentleman’s second question is yes, we will do everything we can to assist both the Israeli and Palestinian authorities in the search for the murderers. I have followed the progress of the International Development Committee carefully across the region. I have not yet seen the report, but, clearly, if the Committee has evidence to support the allegations the hon. Gentleman has made, that would be a very serious matter, which I am sure the International Development Secretary will wish to take up.
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con)
May I join hon. Members in utterly condemning these brutal murders? I can well understand that today those in charge in Israel would want to retaliate, but as a good friend of Israel may I ask that we encourage them and men of good will to exercise restraint? Could we use every possible avenue—after all, we have good channels of communication with both sides and with the Americans—to see whether we can row back from a bleak place towards a peace process?
Hugh Robertson
Let me give my hon. Friend some comfort on all this. If he looks at the international reaction to it, he will find that it has absolutely reflected the points he makes. President Obama’s statement last night contained enormous sympathies for the families of all those involved; one of the victims was a dual Israeli-American citizen and President Obama absolutely expressed that sympathy. He went on to make the point that any reaction must be targeted and proportionate. That is absolutely a line that our Prime Minister has followed up, and that is being followed up in all our ministerial contacts and by our embassy in Tel Aviv.
Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab)
May I, too, associate myself with the remarks made by the Minister, the shadow Minister and, in particular, my right hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Gorton (Sir Gerald Kaufman)? May I also place on record my sympathies to the families of the murdered young Israeli men? May I also press the Minister further about what specific measures the Government are taking to help to de-escalate tensions, which are rising quickly, and to restore some balance between the Israeli and Palestinian Governments, and in the region?
Hugh Robertson
That is a difficult question to answer briefly, as I am sure you would wish me to do, Mr Speaker. The British Government give long-term and short-term support. The long-term support relates to the work we are doing with the Palestinian Authority to build up capacity and to relieve poverty. I saw many of the schemes during my visit last week, including the training at the police academy and the schemes where we are helping Palestinians with planning issues. Our shorter-term support is about the work we are doing with our ministerial contacts, our embassy’s contacts and the consul-general’s contacts in east Jerusalem to work not only for de-escalation but, crucially, to find the perpetrators of this appalling crime.
Mr David Ward (Bradford East) (LD)
I very much welcome this urgent question on what I have described elsewhere as brutal and sickening murders. Does the Minister agree that if urgent questions were sought each time a Palestinian was treated brutally and murdered by the Israeli defence forces, we would, sadly, be here most weeks? Does he also agree that the violence perpetrated by both sides must be condemned equally, and that such violence is not and cannot be in the interests of the Palestinians or the Israelis if we are going to work towards a solution to this dreadful conflict?
Hugh Robertson
I doubt that anybody in the House, or anybody involved in the politics of the middle east, believes that a further escalation between the two sides in this conflict is in anybody’s interest—that way lie more deaths similar to the ones we have seen overnight. On whether a life is worth more or less one side of the line or the other, I say it absolutely is not; there is no hierarchy of victimhood, and people suffer equally.
Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)
The Minister will not have been surprised that everyone in this House has condemned the cold-blooded murders of the three boys. Obviously, we send our sympathy to their parents, as we do to the parents of children on both sides of the conflict who have lost their lives. Does he not agree, however, that the Northern Ireland situation presents the way out, to a large extent? The killings took place over many years on both sides; many argued and fought for a settlement, which fortunately came about. If it has not entirely resolved the situation in Northern Ireland, it has certainly substantially reduced the number of people killed—children and adults alike.
Hugh Robertson
The hon. Gentleman makes an interesting point. I do not know whether he knows this, but I served as a soldier in Northern Ireland in 1987-88. I remember that when I left the Province at the end of my six-month tour, I thought it was utterly inconceivable that the problem would ever be solved, yet, through the good work of good people on both sides, a peace settlement has now been achieved. That probably reveals the central theme of this morning: when the situation seems bleakest is precisely when we need to strive hardest to try to find a solution.
Mr Lee Scott (Ilford North) (Con)
May I associate myself with all the words of condolence? If you will forgive me, Mr Speaker, may I also add, at the start of the mourning period for the families, a Jewish condolence and wish them long life and no more suffering? Does the Minister agree that one way to bring this current crisis to and end would be for the Palestinian Authority to turn in the people who committed this heinous crime, so that justice can be done through the legal process?
Hugh Robertson
May I start by associating myself with my hon. Friend’s expression of condolence? In answer to his question, I say yes, absolutely. Let me give him reassurance by saying that while I was there, it was abundantly clear to me that the technocratic Government were co-operating in security terms with the Israelis, as the Israelis acknowledged. If that Government have any information that they have not handed over that would help bring those responsible to justice, I urge them to hand it over now.
Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)
I commend both the weight and the balance of the Minister’s words. As well as condemning the dreadful murder of these three teenagers, in response to the terrible abduction I join other hon. Members in deploring the unjustified deaths of Palestinian youths in recent times. Does the Minister recognise that in any conflict there comes a point where both sides have to recognise that they cannot be secure against each other and that they can be truly secure only with each other? We hear about “both sides”, but does he accept that many people on both sides in the middle east do not see themselves in the violence of either side in the middle east? It is to those peace-minded people, Palestinians and Israelis alike, that we should offer solidarity today, as we offer sympathy to the mourning families?
Hugh Robertson
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his kind words. He makes a key point about the importance of the peace process and what is needed to achieve it. It has often struck me when dealing with the politics of this region—this is not something that is confined to Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories—that it is always easier for people to return to violence than it is to make the difficult compromises and decisions necessary to move the peace process forward. That is why, throughout history, those who have achieved peace processes are held in such high regard.
Mike Freer (Finchley and Golders Green) (Con)
Many of my constituents will be disappointed to hear from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office the rather well used and tired phrase “proportionate response”. Perhaps the Minister, who I know is a decent man, could advise me on what I say to my constituents about what the FCO regards as a proportionate response to three teenagers being murdered and missiles being fired at Israel on a daily basis.
Hugh Robertson
I am sorry that my hon. Friend feels that way. Let me be absolutely clear about this: it is utterly unacceptable that people in the Gaza strip fire missiles at Israeli citizens. As he knows, I attended a funeral in January on the edge of the Negev. Precautions had to be taken because we were under threat from missile attacks, which is utterly unacceptable in any way, shape or form. The correct response to the kidnapping and murder of three teenagers is to find the perpetrators and to bring them to justice. We expect exactly the same response in that part of the world as we would find here—no more and no less.
Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab)
Like everyone else, we must condemn the terrible murder of these three teenagers, and the same must apply to Palestinian teenagers as well. I ask the Minister to urge restraint on the Israeli Government, because we have a volatile situation throughout the middle east, and we do not want to give to these terrorist organisations any cause to use the Palestinian-Israeli situation as an excuse for further violence.
Hugh Robertson
Absolutely, yes. Everything that we and leaders right the way across the world have done is about ensuring that the reaction to this is properly targeted and—to use that slightly woolly term—proportionate. The key thing is that all the resources are targeted at finding those responsible, but that will clearly not be the case if people are pursuing other agendas. Such a targeted campaign will, I have no doubt, be carried out by the Israeli Government. The Palestinian Authority must play a full part in helping them to achieve that. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that that was clearly the case when I was there 10 days ago.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
I applaud the Minister for his response to these appalling murders, but with respect may I say that he did not answer as fully as he might the question from the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman)? These murders take place against the background of the release of hundreds of Palestinian prisoners by the Israelis as a signal of good intent for the peace process, and of a constant stream of hate and abuse from state-sponsored TV and media in the Palestinian Authority. Surely this House and Her Majesty’s Government need to make it clear to the Palestinian Authority that this background of hate and contempt for Israel must stop if we are to have a meaningful peace process.
Hugh Robertson
I am very sorry if I have not given my hon. Friend the reassurance that he needs that the British Government are absolutely 100% committed to making that message clear to the Palestinian Government. We have made it absolutely clear to the Palestinian authorities that that sort of behaviour is unacceptable. As I have already said, I did not realise that there was any truth in these allegations. I have been specifically reassured that there is not. If the International Development Committee has evidence that that is not the case, we will be keen to see it. To be fair, when the technocratic Government were formed, they were very clear that they would sign up to the Quartet principles, which is an internationally agreed standard. They were absolutely clear and unequivocal on that, and they gave those undertakings to us, the Americans and the Israeli Government.
Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)
The whole House is right to condemn these truly horrific murders, but we should not allow them to diminish the quest for peace in the middle east. What measures are the Palestinian unity Government taking to ensure accountable and effective governance to bring about that transformative change that the Minister talks about to renew the Palestinian economy, create jobs, bring about hope for the Palestinian people and ensure that funds are not diverted to terror activities?
Hugh Robertson
There is a whole bundle of questions there. The approach of the Palestinian Government on economic regeneration is led by Prime Minister Hamdallah, whom I met during my recent visit. He is English educated and extremely impressive. He is very fixed on what needs to be done to regenerate the Palestinian Authority. He is absolutely right to point to the need to eliminate corruption in the Palestinian Authority, because that has bedevilled the region and its prospects for economic growth for some time. The Palestinian Authority have given us a series of assurances that they understand the importance of that and that they are taking the necessary action.
Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)
Our thoughts and prayers are with the families and friends of the murdered teenagers. A constant stream of evidence substantiates the fact that UK taxpayers’ money is finding its way to the evil terrorist organisation Hamas. Will my right hon. Friend undertake to look again at all the evidence—from the Select Committee on International Development, from Israel and from the Palestinian Authority areas—with the objective that not a single penny of UK taxpayers’ money should find its way to the evil terrorist organisation Hamas?
Hugh Robertson
Let me give my hon. Friend some comfort. It is absolutely the position of the Government that UK taxpayers’ money should not go to fund terrorists. That is 100% the case. If, following the International Development Committee’s visit to the region, evidence has emerged that points to the fact that that is not the case, it would be a very serious matter and I can give him an undertaking that that is something into which the Secretary of State will look as a matter of urgency.
Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con)
I welcome the Minister’s words that the best way to resolve this issue is to ensure that the peace process moves forward and that a viable two-state solution is found. With that in mind, may I ask him what conversations he has had with the American Government on moving the peace process forward? At best, President Obama has been rather lacklustre in this area, but the process has moved forward under Secretary of State Kerry. What conversations has the Minister had with our American allies about these terrible events and about getting the peace process moving forward again?
Hugh Robertson
Like others, we should place it on the record—indeed one can never do it enough—how much we appreciate the work of the American Secretary of State. He has been tireless in his pursuit of this process in a way that no other American Secretary of State in my lifetime has been. Ultimately, he has become frustrated by the actions of both parties. He has called for a pause in the process for both parties to face up to the consequences of not pursuing the peace agreement, which, I believe, will be very profound for the whole region. I urge him to join us and everyone else to do everything we can not to escalate the situation further and to encourage both parties to get back to the negotiating table.
Mr Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con)
I listened carefully to what the Minister said about the response of the Palestinian unity Government. Perhaps one of the things that they can do to demonstrate that they are committed to peace is to work closely with the Israeli authorities to bring to justice the people who perpetrated this crime. If it turns out that there is persuasive evidence that Hamas was indeed behind these evil murders, will the Minister return to the Dispatch Box to set out what implications that has for the British Government’s recognition of that Palestinian unity Government?
Hugh Robertson
Yes. In a sense it is a puzzle in two parts. The first thing is who was responsible for this crime. The Israelis are very clear about who they think is responsible. The Palestinian Authority have indicated that that view may be sensible. We need to find out who the perpetrators were, and then we need to find out what, if any, association they may have with the technocratic Government. At the moment, the technocratic Government are absolutely clear that they are fully signed up to the Quartet principles and that they are a non-violent Government and have no contact with Hamas. Indeed, talking to members of Fatah, it is clear that their relationship with Hamas has been desperate. They hate Hamas and regard it as being responsible for the splits that have occurred, so there is some small reason for hope.
Dr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con)
Very little shocks me about what occurs in the middle east, but the depravity of the murder of these young men is beyond comprehension for many of my constituents and for me. The Minister asserted that no money from British taxpayers goes to Hamas, but he has now accepted the position of the International Development Committee that that might be the case. Will he put his efforts into facilitating a meeting of a cross-party delegation of MPs so that we can speak to the DFID Minister and present the evidence we have been talking about for many years already?
Hugh Robertson
I gave the answer that I did to an earlier question because I was assured, as I have been in the past, that there were no grounds for believing that. If a Select Committee of this House has uncovered evidence that firmly proves that that is not the case, that is a very serious issue. I can offer my hon. Friend a cast-iron guarantee that we will take that up. Indeed, the very fact that it has been found by a Select Committee will ensure that the Department responsible has to answer those questions.
Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)
Would the Minister care to reflect that, in rightly praising Secretary of State Kerry, he might have been slightly unfair to Madeleine Albright? Will he, in the context of this situation, tell us not only what might be proportionate for either side but what signals either side might send to the other that would advance rather than regress the situation?
Hugh Robertson
In my remarks, I intended no slight to Madeleine Albright. I simply meant that the most recent iteration of all this has been led by John Kerry with extraordinary energy and vigour, which is why I pay tribute to what he has done. As for the second part of the hon. Gentleman’s question, we will of course look at that very closely.
Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)
The purpose of terrorism is to terrorise. Does the Minister agree that the people who carried out these murders—a minor act of genocide, in a way—are no friends of the peace process and certainly no friends of the Palestinian cause?
Hugh Robertson
I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. If someone wanted to derail the peace process and the prospects of peace, I could think of no better way to do it than to carry out such actions. One needs only to go there or to watch events from here to sense the angst that this has caused. That absolutely shows the importance of getting the peace process back on track.
John Glen (Salisbury) (Con)
My constituent, Rev. Pat Clegg, is a frequent visitor to the west bank and a frequent correspondent with me on Israeli-Palestinian matters. She wrote to me last week, deeply concerned about how universities, colleges and newspaper offices were being stormed, as she put it, by Israeli forces searching for the missing teenagers. Although I am mindful of the significant challenges in securing accurate information in the circumstances, is the Minister aware of those reports and can he comment on them?
Hugh Robertson
Yes. I am very aware of the impact that any form of military action has on life in the west bank, as are many others. My hon. Friend’s constituent and others have properly drawn the international community’s attention to that. On the other hand, we have to understand that Israel is the one liberal democracy in that part of the world and that it lies in an arc of countries where instability is everywhere. Security is Israel’s key concern, and we understand that, but it is important that the actions taken in this regard are precisely targeted to identify and deal with the perpetrators and not a wider objective.
Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con)
These appalling and heinous acts of terror have been equally condemned on both sides of the House and by all apart from Hamas. Further to the Minister’s response to my hon. Friend the Member for Finchley and Golders Green (Mike Freer), may I question how he can draw an equivalence between such an act taking place here and such an act taking place in Israel when it comes to a proportionate response to bring the perpetrators to justice? When Hamas and terrorists are throwing rockets over the border and on to innocent civilians and when Hamas itself sees Israeli teenagers as legitimate targets for terrorist attacks, how can we draw any equivalence when it comes to the response?
Hugh Robertson
The correct response as regards the war on terror, which we have faced in this country for many years through the threat from Irish republicans, is to target what we do very precisely, to avoid escalation and to abide by the rule of law. That is precisely how we relieve the underlying causes of conflict. If one goes further than that, the lessons of history show that that inevitably stokes the conflict and makes things worse.
James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) (Con)
Notwithstanding the Minister’s remarks about the need for restraint, does he not agree that Israel faces a toxic combination of brutal terrorism, as revealed in this particular incident, and of rocket attacks from Gaza and that as a sovereign country it has the absolute right to defend and protect its citizens against these threats?
Hugh Robertson
In a sense, I agree with both parts of my hon. Friend’s question. Israel absolutely faces a toxic combination of such factors and, as I have said, it is the one liberal democracy in that part of the world and is threatened by a sea of instability around it. We would absolutely expect the state of Israel to protect its citizens, but the point that I am making—do not get this wrong—is that it needs to do that in a way that precisely targets the response at those who are responsible for this action and not at a wider political aim.
Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)
In view of this sickening crime and the celebration of the kidnapping in state-sponsored Palestinian media, what assurances can the Minister give me that the words of condemnation given by President Abbas to an international audience will be repeated for his domestic audience?
Hugh Robertson
I think I can give my hon. Friend that assurance, because I was in the west bank when it happened and the domestic price that President Abbas was paying for taking that stance internationally was abundantly clear. He is absolutely doing what the international community wants to see him do and we expect the Palestinian technocratic Government to live up to their responsibility to co-operate fully in security terms with the Government of Israel.
Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)
I welcome the Minister’s statement today. He will know that Hamas is backed by Iran, as is Hezbollah in Lebanon. Iran also backs President Assad’s horrific regime in Syria as well as the Maliki Government in Iraq, with its sectarian violence. Will the Minister assure the House that Iran will not be involved in any further middle eastern issues without first giving up terrorism?
Hugh Robertson
Yes, I can give my hon. Friend that assurance. In a sense, his question sheds some light on precisely why the Israeli Government are concerned about security and are right to be concerned about security.
Michael Ellis (Northampton North) (Con)
Does the Minister agree that no moral equivalency can or should be drawn with other incidents? This was a deliberate and calculated abduction and murder of teenagers. Does he agree that such wickedness cannot go unpunished and will he and Her Majesty’s Government support the Israeli Government if they seek to dismantle the terrorist infrastructure of Hamas, which is, after all, an entity that destroys and seeks to destroy its own people when they disagree with it, as well as Israeli youths, children and other victims of strikes from the air and on land?
Hugh Robertson
In a sense, my hon. Friend makes the point that I was moving towards in my answers to some of the earlier questions: an escalation of the crisis in that part of the world will serve only the men and women of violence on both sides. If there were to be a further escalation, that would absolutely play into the hands of all those who seek to sabotage the peace process and to pursue their aims through violence and not through peace.
Point of Order
Mr Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. In yesterday’s debate in this House on the performance of the Department for Work and Pensions, the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions suggested to the hon. Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves) that she had said that
“‘all the changes that the Government has introduced’ in welfare reform would be reversed ‘and all benefits’…should be ‘universal’.”—[Official Report, 30 July 2014; Vol. 583, c. 648.]
The hon. Lady, to whom I have given a notice of this point of order, suggested that what the Secretary of State had read out was untrue and denied that she had said such things. Today, a recording of the hon. Lady saying those words has been published on the Guido Fawkes website. It therefore appears that she has misled the House, albeit, I am sure, inadvertently. I know the premium that you, Mr Speaker, put on Members’ being honest in what they say, particularly when they speak from either Dispatch Box. What can we do to ensure that the hon. Lady comes to this House, apologises to it and corrects the record?
Mr Speaker
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his point of order. I am bound to say that, for my part, I do not spend any time browsing on websites; it is not something with which I am in any way preoccupied—[Interruption.] It probably is very wise. Such matters are of no interest to me, but I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman and note his nocturnal habits in these matters.
The answer to the hon. Gentleman is that every Member must take responsibility for what he or she says in the House. Whereas there is a formal procedure for the Minister to correct the record by making another statement to the House, no such procedure exists for those who are not members of the Government; but it is open to Members, if they think they have erred or accept the suggestion by others that they have done so, to acknowledge error and to comment as they think fit. However, although I respect the hon. Gentleman and realise that he has put the point on the record, it is not a matter of order for the Chair.
FINANCE BILL: PROCEDURE (THEATRE TAX CREDITS)
Resolved,
That, notwithstanding anything to the contrary in the practice of the House relating to the matters that may be included in Finance Bills, any Finance Bill of the present Session may contain provision for tax credits to be paid to production companies in respect of expenditure on activities in connection with theatrical productions.—(Mr Gauke.)
FINANCE BILL: WAYS AND MEANS (CO-OPERATIVE SOCIETIES ETC.)
Resolved,
That provision may be made about the tax treatment of co-operative, community benefit and industrial and provident societies and credit unions.—(Mr Gauke.)
FINANCE BILL: WAYS AND MEANS (CORPORATION TAX TREATMENT OF OIL CONTRACTORS ETC.)
Resolved,
That provision may be made in relation to the corporation tax treatment of companies that:
(1) provide, operate or use an asset in, or in connection with, the carrying on of activities in connection with the exploration or exploitation of the sea bed and subsoil and their natural resources, or
(2) make, or are to make, payments in respect of an asset that is, or is to be, so provided, operated or used.—(John Penrose.)
FINANCE BILL: WAYS AND MEANS (ENTERPRISE INVESTMENT SCHEME)
Resolved,
That provision may be made amending Part 5 of the Income Tax Act 2007.—(John Penrose.)
FINANCE BILL: WAYS AND MEANS (STAMP DUTY LAND TAX) (EXERCISE OF COLLECTIVE RIGHTS BY TENANTS OF FLATS)
Resolved,
That:
(1) In section 74 of the Finance Act 2003 (exercise of collective rights by tenants of flats), in subsection (1A) for “£2,000,000”, in each place it occurs, there is substituted “£500,000”.
(2) The amendments made by this Resolution have effect in relation to any chargeable transaction of which the effective date is on or after 1 July 2014.
(3) But the amendments do not have effect in relation to a transaction:
(a) effected in pursuance of a contract entered into and substantially performed before 20 March 2014, or
(b) effected in pursuance of a contract entered into before that date and not excluded by paragraph (4).
(4) A transaction effected in pursuance of a contract entered into before 20 March 2014 is excluded by this paragraph if:
(a) there is any variation of the contract, or assignment (or assignation) of rights under the contract, on or after 20 March 2014,
(b) the transaction is effected in consequence of the exercise on or after that date of any option, right of pre-emption or similar right, or
(c) on or after that date there is an assignment (or assignation), subsale or other transaction relating to the whole or part of the subject-matter of the contract as a result of which a person other than the purchaser under the contract becomes entitled to call for a conveyance.
And it is declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution should have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act 1968. —(John Penrose.)
FINANCE BILL: PROGRAMME (NO. 2)
Ordered,
That the following provisions shall apply to the Finance Bill for the purpose of supplementing the Order of 1 April 2014 in the last Session of Parliament (Finance (No. 2) Bill (Programme)):
(1) Proceedings on consideration shall be taken on the days shown in the following Table and in the order so shown.
(2) Each part of the proceedings shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at the times specified in relation to it in the second column of the Table.
Table
Proceedings | Time for conclusion of proceedings |
First day (1 July 2014) | |
New Clauses and new Schedules relating to the subject matter of Clause 1; amendments to Clause 1 | 3.00pm |
New Clauses and new Schedules relating to stamp duty land tax; amendments to Clauses 105 to 107 and Schedule 19 | 4.30pm |
New Clauses and New Schedules relating to employee shareholder shares | 6.00pm |
New Clauses and New Schedules relating to tax arrangements that are abusive | 7.30pm |
Second day (2 July 2014) | |
New Clauses and new Schedules relating to pensions; amendments to Clauses 39 to 43; amendments to Schedules 4 and 5 | 2.00pm |
New Clauses and new Schedules relating to the annual investment allowance; amendments to Clause 10 and Schedule 2 | 4.00pm |
Remaining new Clauses and new Schedules standing in the name of a Minister of the Crown; amendments standing in the name of a Minister of the Crown; remaining proceedings on Consideration | 6.00pm |
(3) Proceedings on Third Reading shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at 7.00pm on the second day.—(John Penrose.)
Finance Bill
(10 years, 5 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
14:59 - The House divided: - Ayes: 228 / Noes: 289 - Question accordingly negatived.
16:08 - The House divided: - Ayes: 231 / Noes: 296 - Question accordingly negatived.
17:59 - The House divided: - Ayes: 233 / Noes: 303 - Question accordingly negatived.
19:29 - The House divided: - Ayes: 228 / Noes: 296 - Question accordingly negatived.
Shabana Mahmood (Birmingham, Ladywood) (Lab)
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
It is a pleasure to start the Report stage of the Finance Bill, Mr Speaker. We had many good and long debates in the Bill Committee, and I am sure we will continue that trend over the next couple of days.
The new clause, which stands in my name and those of my right hon. and hon. Friends, would require the Chancellor of the Exchequer to publish within three months of the passing of this legislation a report on the additional rate of income tax—the top rate, which was 50p until last year, when it was cut by this Government to 45p. The report we envisage would set out the impact on Exchequer receipts of an additional rate, set at 50p, in the first year of the next Parliament. The Chancellor would also be required to set out the impact of reducing the additional rate for last year, 2013-14, and the amount of income tax paid by all additional rate payers, those with incomes over £250,000 a year and those with incomes over £1 million a year. Finally, the report would set out the impact of the reduction in the additional rate in 2013-14 on the level of bonuses awarded in April 2013 to employees in the financial sector.
Since the coalition Budget of 2012, we have had a number of debates on the Floor of the House and in Public Bill Committee on the Government’s decision to cut the additional rate from 50p to 45p. Indeed, the Minister has referred to such debates being an annual event during the passage of the Finance Bill. Why is it so important that we continue to press the Government on this one decision, made in 2012, after they have refused to listen to all and any attempts to get them to change course? It is because if there is one decision taken by the Government that tells us all we need to know about their priorities and who they stand for, this is it.
The Government who said, “We’re all in it together,” and the Chancellor who promised that he would not balance the books on the backs of the poor, saw fit to give, at a time when ordinary working people were seeing their living standards fall and when the combined impact of tax and benefits changes has left households on average more than £974 a year worse off, an absolutely huge tax cut to the wealthiest in our country. For millionaires, this tax cut is worth an average of £100,000—a vast sum, far out of reach for the majority of working people. So although this may appear to be simply an annual event and part of the House’s debates on the Finance Bill, it is much more than that. This Government made a bad choice—the wrong choice—when they prioritised a tax cut for millionaires while ordinary working people continued to struggle as a result of their decisions, and we will not let them forget it.
Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con)
How does the hon. Lady explain the fact that income inequality rose under Labour and has fallen under the coalition?
Shabana Mahmood
I am pleased that the right hon. Gentleman is here. I recall in the debate in Committee of the whole House that he argued for a further cut in the rate to 40p, citing in evidence the increase in revenues resulting from the cut, but as he should know—I am sure he does—that is a result of bonuses being deferred. I shall return to that point, but I think it tells us all we know about where the Government stand on fairness.
Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
My hon. Friend talks about the amount that may be raised, but rather than having a regular debate across this Chamber about the 50p tax cut and the massive tax cut for millionaires, perhaps the Government could just accept the new clause and bring all the facts before the House?
Shabana Mahmood
My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. We do indeed have a regular debate about the facts and figures—I will come to the detailed data on the yield from the 50p rate later—but if the Government accepted our new clause, much of that debate could be put to bed, especially as Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs now has much more data with which to produce an analysis that is less flawed than the one in 2012.
David Wright (Telford) (Lab)
Our hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) makes a good point. When the Government abolished the 50p rate, they made great play of studies they said they had done on the revenue raised. Would it not be perfectly acceptable for them to accept the amendment, so that we could see exactly the impact of their unfair tax changes, because they are clearly showing their colours in terms of supporting the wealthiest in our country?
Shabana Mahmood
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that powerful point. As I said, I will explore the details in relation to data and the argument over the yield from the 50p rate, but he is right: we cannot continue to rely on a report produced when the rate had been in place for only one year. The Government should accept the new clause and produce a much more comprehensive analysis.
It was the Labour Government who introduced the 50p rate, which came into effect in 2010-11, a decision made after the financial crisis, as we sought to get the deficit down. When this Government came to power they did not say anything in the coalition agreement about abolishing the 50p rate, but in 2011 the Chancellor said that he would ask HMRC to look at the yields from the 50p rate, which was the warning signal that he was looking to cut it. In 2012, with HMRC’s report “The Exchequer effect of the 50 per cent additional rate of income tax” to back him up, the Chancellor cut the rate to 45p.
Why go through the process of looking at yield and getting HMRC to produce a report? Everyone knew that there were not enough data to come to an accurate view about yield because the rate had not been in place for long enough—a point about which I shall say more later. Well, the Chancellor knew that he needed cover for that deeply ideological decision so he was desperate to claim that a 50p rate raised very little money. If he could stand before the House and say that it raised hardly any money at all, never mind the uncertainty and the incompleteness of the data, he calculated that he could justify giving a tax cut to the richest in our country, knowing that on his watch ordinary people—those on middle and lower incomes—would pay the price for his economic plan, which has failed on the terms that he set for himself when he came to power in 2010.
Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)
There are 15,300 people in work in my constituency who earn less than the living wage. They have lost out, as have many others, by £1,600 a year since this Government came to power. To them, accepting the new clause would indicate that the Government recognise that tax changes should be to the benefit of everybody in our society, not just a few. Does my hon. Friend think the Government appreciate that, or can she think of another reason why they will not accept it?
Shabana Mahmood
I fear that on previous form the Government will not listen today and accept our new clause. Nothing that has been said in previous debates gives me any confidence that they understand the message that they have sent to my hon. Friend’s constituents, mine and those of Members across the House that a tax cut for the wealthiest is prioritised, while ordinary working people at the lower end of the income scale are worse off.
Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)
Does my hon. Friend share my worry that people will think the Government have something to hide, as they are unwilling both to let us see what a 50p rate would raise and to audit party manifestos? Rather than “We’re all in it together,” does it not sound like they are all at it together?
Shabana Mahmood
My hon. Friend makes a powerful point. What do the Government have to hide? The data that we seek would not be difficult for HMRC to provide. It has already conducted one analysis and it is not unfeasible for it to conduct a further analysis, this time based on more comprehensive data, which would clear up some of the issues once and for all.
Mr Iain McKenzie (Inverclyde) (Lab)
Does my hon. Friend agree that by accepting the new clause, the Government would give weight to their often recited argument that the broadest shoulders should bear the greatest burden? The new clause would put the burden on the shoulders best able to bear it.
Shabana Mahmood
My hon. Friend makes a good contribution, which I agree with.
Mr Redwood
The Government have published all the figures and they show that after the tax cut the better-off are paying more, not less.
Shabana Mahmood
The right hon. Gentleman is wrong. The Government have published one set of figures from only one year’s data. Much more data are now available for a further, more comprehensive review to be carried out, and the Government should do so. If they have nothing to hide, and if they are confident that they have made the right decision, they should submit that to scrutiny.
Returning to data and yield from the 50p rate, we know from the Government’s own assessment that the cost of cutting the rate from 50p to 45p was more than £3 billion, excluding all behavioural changes. In Treasury terms, £3 billion is a big deal, so how could the tax cut be justified? Well, the Government say that most of that potential £3 billion revenue would effectively be lost as a result of tax avoidance, the so-called behavioural change effect. Having assessed revenue lost as a result of tax avoidance and other behavioural change, the Government go on to say that the cost to the Exchequer of cutting the rate to 45p is only £100 million. So, on the Government’s figures, an additional rate of tax set at 50p would raise only £100 million.
Frank Dobson (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab)
Is it not the case that the very well paid people who got the benefit are a collection of tax swindlers swindling the rest of the taxpayers, and should not everybody in the House be attending to changing the law so that such tax swindling cannot happen in the future?
Shabana Mahmood
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for his intervention. I was about to come to the topic of tax avoidance, which I hope will answer his question.
Another weakness in the Government’s argument is the proposition that behavioural change, or tax avoidance, means it is not worth while maintaining the rate at 50p. This must be the only example of tax avoidance resulting in a huge tax cut, rather than in Government crackdowns to tackle and fight tax avoidance, which they are normally so quick to say they are doing. The Chancellor is on record as saying that he considers tax avoidance to be “morally repugnant”, but in the case of the 50p rate he rewarded a particular form of avoidance with a tax cut. I wonder if that has ever happened for people on middle and lower incomes. I think not.
The message that this Government have sent out is that if people are sufficiently well off to pay for advisers who can tell them how to avoid paying the 50p rate, and are organised enough and can lobby the Government, they are up for a tax cut, but everyone else, sorry, is simply worse off.
Bill Esterson
Does my hon. Friend agree that the Government also send the message that a tax cut incentivises the wealthy to work harder, but that if everybody else is given benefits that does not work?
Shabana Mahmood
My hon. Friend is right.
The Government always tell us how proud they are of their record on tax avoidance, but how much effort did they put into thinking of ways in which they could protect revenue from the 50p rate? The Government have introduced the general anti-abuse rule, the so-called GAAR, which may have helped. They could have thought about a targeted anti-avoidance rule, a so-called TAAR. They could also have looked to HMRC to do more. I understand that no specific resources are allocated within HMRC to protect revenue from the 50p rate. A range of measures could have been taken to protect revenue. Before rushing to abolish the rate, the Government could and should have looked at protecting that revenue first. They were quick enough to publish an analysis saying that on their evidence it was not raising much money because of behavioural change, but their instinct was not to say, “Let’s look at how we might see off that behavioural change.” They did not commission a report or publish anything on that; they jumped straight to cutting it at the earliest opportunity: more evidence that this is an ideological and political choice made because they wanted to prioritise the tax cuts for the richest, while ordinary working people are worse off.
Steve McCabe
Far from trying to curb tax avoidance, is not the problem that the Govt constantly open up fresh opportunities, such as the shares for rights, which the Institute for Fiscal Studies has called another billion-pound lollipop on the table?
Shabana Mahmood
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We will debate later the issues in relation to tax avoidance and shares for rights.
The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Gauke)
The hon. Lady accuses the Government of being ideological here. For the avoidance of doubt, were there to be yet another study that showed that the 50p rate failed to raise any substantial sums of money, would the Labour party still go ahead with an increase in the additional rate of income tax from 45p to 50p?
Shabana Mahmood
Let us see the report. The Minister has had many opportunities in Finance Bill debates where the Opposition have tabled amendments and new clauses calling for such a report. He has not produced one. I have no confidence that he will go away today and ask his officials at HMRC suddenly to produce a report. If he has such a report in mind, he should accept our new clause, and we can then have that debate. We have said that we will increase the rate to 50p. We believe that that can raise money and will be a good part of a much fairer deficit reduction policy.
The truth is that there was no justification for giving a huge tax cut to the richest in our country. We now know that bonuses are up by 83% for those in the financial sector, while ordinary working people are worse off now and will be worse off in 2015 compared with 2010. Wages will be 5.6% down at the end of this Parliament from what they were at the beginning.
The Government have not ruled out cutting the additional rate back down to 40p. We know that this is the ardent desire of many of their Back Benchers. Perhaps when the Minister replies he could tell the House whether the Government are planning any further cuts. They have ducked the opportunity on previous occasions to confirm that they will not go down from 45p to 40p. It will be good to hear from the Minister whether that is the case. The Government’s priorities are all wrong. Ordinary working people continue to struggle with their finances, and the link between the wealth of the nation and the money in people’s pockets and in their household budgets is broken. This Finance Bill does nothing to change the reality of the lives of millions in our country, yet Government Members want to cut taxes for the richest.
Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)
The Labour party now proposes a 50p rate for the additional rate. Is that a permanent measure or a temporary measure to deal with the deficit?
Shabana Mahmood
The hon. Gentleman has made that point in previous debates, and I repeat the answer that I gave then. We have said that we would increase the rate to 50p in the next Parliament as we get the deficit down. I could not be clearer than that.
It is the richest in our country who are benefiting the most from the recovery delivered by the Government. The return of economic growth has overwhelmingly benefited the top 1%, as shown by analysis of HMRC figures by the House of Commons Library, which covered the year when GDP growth returned and the top rate of income tax on earnings over £150,000 was reduced. The share of post-tax income of the top 1% of taxpayers—300,000 people—rose from 8.2% in 2012-13 to 9.8% in 2013-14. Yet during the same period, the bottom 90%— 27 million taxpayers—have seen their share of post-tax income fall.
This cut to the 50p rate cannot be justified when the deficit is high and will not be eliminated towards the end of the next Parliament. Labour in government will increase the rate back to 50p to help us to get the deficit down in a fairer way. Just as we have said that we want the Office for Budget Responsibility to have powers to audit manifestos ahead of the next general election, because we believe that that scrutiny will add to public understanding about the choices that are being made—a call the Government only last week rejected—so too we think that a report as envisaged by the new clause would help the public to understand the impact of the top rate of tax so that they can make up their own minds about who is standing up for them and other working people like them.
Mr Redwood
Let me deal first with an old canard from the Labour Benches that is simply untrue and unfair: the idea that Conservatives welcome tax cuts for the rich, but do not think that tax cuts are appropriate for anybody else. Government Members believe strongly that tax cuts work for everybody, and that is why the Government have given back a lot of tax revenue to people on low pay by taking them out of tax altogether. We have supported and welcomed that, and that is where the missing revenue that Labour worries about is concentrated.
Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)
The right hon. Gentleman says that the Government are taking many low-income people out of tax. But he must recognise that by raising value added tax, the least progressive of taxes, which everyone purchasing goods has to pay, regardless of their income, they are increasing the burden on the lowest paid.
Mr Redwood
VAT is not as regressive as the hon. Lady suggests, because I am pleased to say that important items, such as food and children’s clothes, are VAT exempt, which makes it a little less unpalatable. I agree with her that all tax rises are bad news, but they are a necessity given the large deficit that we inherited, and when some important public services need financing. I also entirely agree with Labour that, given that we have a large deficit and need to spend money on important benefits and public services, we need to get that money from the rich and the better off. They are the people with money, and we have to find the best way to get the money off them.
David Wright
Why is the right hon. Gentleman so scared of the new clause? All it does is request a report. Surely he supports the idea of having a report on these issues so that we can get to the bottom of the matter.
Mr Redwood
If I am given a chance to develop my argument, I hope I will satisfy any independent-minded people on the Labour Benches that we already have the evidence. We have had a long-term experiment on this very subject, which satisfies some Conservative Members that the way to get more money off the rich is to set a rate that they are prepared to pay and will stay and pay. If the rate is set too high, they leave. If the rate is set too high, their clever lawyers and accountants find entirely legal ways to pay rather less tax than we would like.
The hon. Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Shabana Mahmood) did not answer my intervention when I asked her to confirm that the Red Book has made it clear that after the cut in the rate, the amount that the better off and the rich paid went up—of course it did. That is the experience we would expect. The hon. Lady is left trying to say that there are special reasons. I will give her this point: it is probably best to judge these things over a longer period than a year or two. One can get odd variations, which is why I want to give the evidence to the House that it has clearly forgotten, which relates to the big reductions in top rate tax that were put through in the 1980s. The Conservative Government reduced the top rate of tax in two stages, from 83% to 60% and then from 60% to 40%, and the Labour Government kept that rate right up until they knew that they would lose office. They were wise to do so, because over those years the amount of cash paid by the rich went up, the real-terms amount of tax paid by the rich went up and the proportion of total income tax revenue paid by the rich went up. What is not to like about that treble win?
Graeme Morrice (Livingston) (Lab)
The right hon. Gentleman said earlier that if the top rate of tax was too high people would leave—I presume he meant that they would leave the country. How many rich people have returned to the country as a result of the top rate being reduced from 50p to 45p?
Mr Redwood
We will be able to answer that question in due course, because these are still early days, but there are encouraging signs that more revenue is coming in from the rich. We will know the results of the latest experiment later, but we know fully the results of the 1980s tax cuts. They were clear enough to convince not only all sensible Conservative MPs at the time, who were happy to vote for the tax cuts and kept them throughout their period in office, but, more importantly, the long-running Chancellor of the Exchequer who took office in 1997 and held it for a decade before becoming Prime Minister. He is not an easy man to convince to be nice to the rich. I think that he decided to run with that tax rate because he was entirely convinced that he would get more money out of the rich at 40% than he would at 83% or 60%.
Steve McCabe
Does not the evidence show that any increase in the tax paid by the rich is the result of their share of income rising at the same time as everyone else’s living standards are falling?
Mr Redwood
The main reason they pay more tax, of course, is that they generate and declare more income here, which is surely what we want them to do. If the Labour party is with me so far in wanting decent public services, and if it is with me in accepting that the money for those services has to come from the better-off, because by definition we do not want to tax the poor, then surely it is with me in wanting to have more rich people here to venture, save, put their money at risk and to make more money with their money so that there is more of it to tax. This country is now very dependent on income tax from the top group of earners, who produce 30% of income tax, and on the capital gains tax, stamp duty and other taxes that apply mainly to rich people with big assets. That is sustaining public services. It is very important that Members of this House, who might not like those people—clearly the Labour party dislikes them intensely—recognise that they are very useful members of society and that their revenue is crucial to being able to redistribute money across the country. If Labour Members wish to have more equality, they must think about the optimising rate. Surely it is best to try to find the rate that maximises revenue, rather than a penal rate that satisfies people’s sense of jealousy—or whatever it is—about those who have or make a lot of money.
Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab)
The right hon. Gentleman is wrong about the Labour party disliking rich people intensely and should retract that statement. If he is not prepared to do so, perhaps he will explain why many people feel that his party dislikes ordinary families and poor families intensely, as highlighted by their policies.
Mr Redwood
That is simply not true. I am delighted to hear that the hon. Lady likes rich people—there are quite a few in her party, so let us hope she gets on well with them—but it is absolutely false to suggest that Conservatives have no interest in people who are out of tax altogether or who are on low incomes; we are desperately concerned that they should get better educational standards and have more opportunities so that they can get a job and then go on to get a better job. We wish them well, and we are very keen to work with all those in our constituencies so that they can take advantage of opportunities. We would like them to be on higher incomes. In the meantime, unlike the Government she supported, we have taken many more of those people out of tax altogether, because we think that those on an income of less than £10,000 a year should not have to pay tax. They will probably be receiving some benefit assistance.
Another point that the hon. Member for Birmingham, Ladywood did not respond to was the fact that the latest figures show that inequality rose under the Labour Government but has actually fallen a bit under the coalition, mainly because we have taken an awful lot of people at the lower end of the income scale out of tax. We have a very progressive system: the income tax system now exempts anybody on less than £10,000 and has a 47% rate, if we take national insurance as well on the highest incomes; and the benefit system rightly gives a lot of money to people at the low end of the scale and should not give any money to people at the top end.
John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)
The right hon. Gentleman has made a number of assertions in his last few sentences. I wonder whether he has seen the report published this week by the Joseph Rowntree Foundation, which states that the cuts in child benefit and tax credits
“have typically created losses double the amount of tax allowance gain for working couples, and nearly four times the amount for working lone parents.”
I wonder whether he has seen the latest HMRC report, which states that the Gini coefficient started to rise significantly in 2012-13.
Mr Redwood
The figures I have been using refer to the whole coalition period and show a reduction in inequality, which I hope the hon. Gentleman will welcome. I do not recognise his figures on the child tax changes. The overall effect of taking a lot of people out of tax has been a very positive impact on their net incomes, as we would hope.
Ian Murray
If the right hon. Gentleman disputes whether an increase in the additional rate of tax would bring in more money, does he agree with the new clause’s call for a report? If it shows that the 50p tax rate brings in more money, will he and his Conservative colleagues advocate increasing it again?
Mr Redwood
I thought that I had dealt with that point. As far as I am concerned, it was proven conclusively in the ’80s that taking the rate down from 83% to 40% increased the revenue very substantially and on a sustainable basis. That was sufficient to persuade the official Labour party—perhaps not some Labour colleagues here today—not to increase the tax rate from 40% throughout its long years in government until the very end.
Bill Esterson
Does the right hon. Gentleman not recognise that the economic circumstances are now rather different from those he is talking about. Surely we need a study, as the new clause proposes, to enable us to look at what is happening now.
Mr Redwood
I do not think that the economic circumstances were as different as the hon. Gentleman thinks. In the early ’80s the Conservative Government inherited an economic crisis from Labour, just as this Government did. There was a lot of unemployment and a big task in getting people back to work and getting the economy growing again, rather like today. The Government at the time managed to do that, just as this Government are, so I do not accept his point.
However, I find the fact that Labour is going backwards on these issues rather perturbing. Why can the modern Labour party not understand the basic points that the Labour party that was victorious between 1997 and 2010 understood fully? Why can it not understand that it is possible to take the tax rate too high and get less revenue? The Treasury has now accepted the doctrine of the Laffer curve and understands that putting the tax rate above the optimising rate would surely be a very foolish thing to do. It knows that that applies to capital gains tax, as it clearly does to income tax. I submit that 50% was well above the optimum rate, because we collected rather less revenue than many people would have liked. I welcome the fact that the Government have started to put that right.
I do not think that we need the study that the Labour party is recommending today, and I advise it to think again about what it learnt in the ’80s and ’90s but appears now to have forgotten. It shows that the former Labour Chancellor was clearly not crowd-pleasing when he refused to increase the rate from 40%—he was clearly antagonising many of his Back-Bench colleagues by not doing so—so there must have been a good reason for it. I think that reason was a sensible one: it would have raised less revenue, rather than more. I urge the Government to reject new clause 14.
Rushanara Ali
It is worth considering some of the context of our debate today on the Finance Bill. Almost 15 years ago, the then Labour Government introduced the national minimum wage. That historic measure increased the value of work for around 2 million people across the UK. At its heart was fairness and dignity for all at work. Yet today we are debating the impact of a substantial tax cut for 13,000 millionaires introduced by this Government. At a time when more than four out of five people surveyed in a recent Ipsos MORI poll said that they faced a cost of living crisis, the contrast cannot be overstated. It would be almost impossible to find so clear a contrast between the ambitions and motivations of two Governments. The bottom line in this debate is that the Government’s proposals in the Finance Bill do almost nothing to address the cost of living crisis.
David Wright
My hon. Friend mentioned Ipsos MORI. If we look at public attitude surveys, we see that one of the reasons why there is a breakdown of trust in politics is the very approach that she is discussing. People on low incomes—indeed, those on middle incomes—are facing a cost of living crisis, while the wealthiest are getting a tax cut. That is why people switch off from politics; they see the double standards being pursued by the Government.
Rushanara Ali
I could not agree more. I heard the speech of the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood), but it is clear that there are major divisions in our society. We should all be concerned about that. Tax breaks are given to those who do not need them—to millionaires; responsible millionaires will admit that the stance being adopted is divisive. We should protect those who are struggling the most as well as ordinary middle-income families in this cost of living crisis. I hope that the Government will take on board some of the points made about the social consequences of the tax inequalities that the Government are introducing and making worse.
Let us take my constituency of Bethnal Green and Bow as an example. Families there are significantly worse off than they have ever been. Child poverty is at 42% and there is still high unemployment. There are still major problems of worklessness and young people who are not in training or education. That is a major problem around the country: 870,000 young people remain unemployed.
Changes in taxes and benefits made since 2010 make one-parent families working to support children an average of £3,720 a year poorer. That staggering fall in living standards will affect the most vulnerable. The issue is not envy, but the fact that my constituents are struggling. They will rightly continue to ask why millionaires in the City are receiving a tax cut from the Government of about £100,000 a year. My constituents are working hard to make ends meet and their children are living in poverty. While they continue the battle to survive, they ask why the Chancellor is giving £3 billion a year in tax breaks to millionaires. How is that fair? How are we all in this together if that is the Government’s priority?
Jonathan Edwards
Given what the hon. Lady is saying, would she support a 50% rate on earnings above £100,000?
Rushanara Ali
I am here to debate the new clause. I am focused on what the Government are doing. I support the new clause because it is not fair that £3 billion a year should be going to millionaires. On top of that, as my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Shabana Mahmood) mentioned, bonuses in the financial sector are up by 83%. My constituents are living between the City of London and Canary Wharf; they see the inequities and want a fair chance. They are not complaining about people earning a decent living, but they want the Government to be fair in how they tax.
Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con)
The hon. Lady represents a seat next door to mine. We both have significant numbers of constituents living, as she would put it, in poverty—although poverty levels today are very different from those certainly in the first half of the last century and before—and significant numbers who are relatively well off. Does she not recognise that by reducing tax rates we are bringing more money into the Exchequer? She says that the issue is not about the politics of envy, but does she not recognise that higher rates of tax would bring less into the Exchequer to pay for the very services that our more poverty-stricken constituents so desperately need? She is undermining the very case she tries to make.
Rushanara Ali
I have great respect for the hon. Gentleman, but I do not agree. My hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Ladywood set out the facts in her speech, so I will not reiterate them; others want to speak. The hon. Gentleman will know about the disparities all too well. The Government have a responsibility to make sure that the tax system is fair, and fairness is at the heart of a progressive tax system admired by people in other countries. The changes that the Government have introduced—prioritising tax breaks for those who least need them while ordinary families continue to struggle—are deeply disturbing and unfair.
Mr Iain McKenzie (Inverclyde) (Lab)
We are hearing people say, “Tax them less and they will pay more.” Why does that not work all the way down the tax scales? We are seeing middle-income families being sucked into higher tax brackets to pay for the lifting of the less well paid out of tax altogether.
Rushanara Ali
The Government have made a great deal of their efforts to support middle-income families, but frankly their words have been empty. They have prioritised those at the top. Will the Minister say whether his Government will rule out reducing tax further for high earners to 40%? I give him the opportunity to say so now. The revenue that the Government are forgoing could be used to support others—to get young people back to work, for instance.
Rushanara Ali
I will not give way again as I am conscious that others wish to speak. I will conclude.
The Government’s so-called long-term plan should not be pursued at the expense of those in lower and middle-income families. That is why the new clause would rightly force the Chancellor to publish how much extra tax would be paid by high earners under the 50p rate. That would establish how much those earning more than £1 million per year would contribute. That would go a long way towards giving us the clarity we need.
Our vision is to work towards cutting taxes for the 24 million people on middle and lower incomes through the introduction of a 10p starting rate of tax. That is not only the way to a fairer system of taxation but the only way to nurture sustainable growth for all. After three years of flatlining, the growth that we are beginning to see is welcome, although it is still coming much slower than it is to countries such as the US and Germany.
Opposition Members have a vision for a broad-based recovery forged through the efforts of all people from all backgrounds. We must remember that average wages will have fallen by 5.6% by the end of this Parliament. How does that make our society one in which we are all in it together? I do not hear members of the Government or Government Back Benchers use that phrase any more. I challenge them to use it today if they still believe that it is not a joke as far as most people in this country are concerned. Only Labour’s plans for a fairer and more progressive taxation system will support the return of wages to a level seen before 2010.
In conclusion, I return to the basic premise of Labour’s argument. It is simply not acceptable or fair for millions of people to pay more in tax while millionaires pay less. Since 2010, tax rises and cuts to benefit have left average households worse off. Real-terms decreases in wages across this Parliament have made the financial plight of ordinary people across the UK tougher. People have become dependent on food banks as they have never been and there is rising homelessness in cities such as London. There is rising poverty—child poverty in particular—not only in my constituency, but up and down the country, but this Government still find the energy and will to reward the top 1% of earners while everyone else suffers.
The Government have pandered to the worst suggestions of their critics, namely that they are out of touch, have failed to spread any meaningful recovery to those who desperately need it and are out for the few and not for the many. For those reasons I support Labour’s proposals on the tax cut and support the new clause.
Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD)
It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Bow (Rushanara Ali). I agree that we should be aiming for a tax system that is as fair as possible and accept that the timing of the top rate cut was not good for public relations or for feelings throughout the country. But let us examine the genesis of this situation.
In 2010, 6 April was an important day. It was the day that the top rate of tax was raised from 40p to 50p. It was also the day that Parliament was dissolved—the very last day that Labour Members sat on the Government Benches. They were sat on these Benches for one day with the top rate of tax at 50p. Clearly, as the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood) said, the rate was raised in the full knowledge that Labour was likely to lose the general election. It was the then Chancellor’s leaving present, which he knew would keep leading to headlines and would be the gift that kept on giving. Listening to the speeches made by Opposition Members today one would imagine that there had been a 50p tax rate throughout their time in government, and not simply on the last day on which they sat on the Government Benches.
Frank Dobson
Does the hon. Gentleman, as a Lib Dem, not recall that that date was significant in another way, as it was the day that the leader of the Liberal Democrats signed a pledge to get rid of tuition fees?
Ian Swales
Mr Deputy Speaker, I am sure you would call me out of order if I responded to that point.
Labour’s Chancellors were not slow to raise taxes—in fact, there is a long list of almost 100 taxes that they raised in 13 years—but strangely enough, they did not raise this one. Again, as the right hon. Member for Wokingham eloquently said, they knew that it was dubious that raising the top rate of income tax would lead to actual benefits. He mentioned the experiments of the 1980s in this country; François Hollande is conducting a live experiment right now across the channel and is getting very much the same results, with one prominent French citizen, Gérard Depardieu, moving all the way to Russia to avoid penal tax rates.
The hon. Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Shabana Mahmood)talked about the need for analysis. I make two suggestions. First, I presume that during the 13 years of the previous Labour Government a great deal of analysis was carried out on whether raising the top rate was the right thing to do—as I said, they were not slow to look at new ways of raising money and clearly kept on rejecting it as an option. The Institute for Fiscal Studies has now studied Labour’s proposal to raise the top rate back to 50p and has said that it is of dubious benefit. In fact, I think the hon. Lady herself said that it could cost money and would not be drawn on whether that would make her change the policy.
We ought to take what the Labour party says with a pinch of salt. It cut taxes every single year for millionaires.
David Wright
The hon. Gentleman is making an interesting speech. Is he making the commitment today that the Liberal Democrats will not have this proposal in their manifesto for the next election?
Ian Swales
I am not sure which proposal the hon. Gentleman is referring to.
Ian Swales
I am not committing anything for our next manifesto, just as the hon. Gentleman’s party is not as yet. Our manifesto is being discussed now.
Ian Murray
I will check Hansard to make sure that this is accurate, but I think the hon. Gentleman said that some of the figures were dubious. If he genuinely believes that, why does he not vote for the new clause so that we get figures that are not dubious? Perhaps we can then assess whether a 50p tax rate is correct. Indeed, while he is going on about tax rises, will he confirm to the House whether he thinks a VAT increase is a Tory tax bombshell?
Ian Swales
I do not see VAT mentioned in the new clause. I was pointing out that, as the hon. Gentleman’s own Front Benchers say, the analysis of the benefits of the policy comes out as plus or minus zero: it could have a large cost or be a significant benefit. If we are in that sort of ballpark, we are clearly not talking about huge measures that will cut the deficit.
Under this Government, the wealthy have been paying a lot more every year in income tax than they ever did in any year under Labour. They are paying more in many other ways as well. The Labour Government thought it was okay for the wealthy to pay £250,000 in pension contributions and get full tax relief; the coalition Government have reduced that to £40,000, making £95,000 a year of tax benefits that the Labour Government were happy to give but this Government are not. Capital gains tax was at the derisory level of 18%, and is now 28%. The level the Labour Government charged on capital gains was lower than the rate of income tax, so hedge fund managers could be paying a lower rate of tax than the people who cleaned their offices, a truly shameful record.
If anyone is lucky enough to be spending £1 million a year, they will be paying £25,000 more in VAT. To answer a point made by the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne Central (Chi Onwurah) earlier, people on low pay spend very little on standard rate VAT items. Once again, the right hon. Member for Wokingham mentioned this: most of the day-to-day living costs of most people—housing, energy, food and many other costs—do not carry standard rate VAT, so the wealthy are paying more there.
The thresholds for inheritance tax were going up under Labour but have been frozen under this Government through the efforts of the Liberal Democrats. We know that the party with which we are in coalition would like to return the level to £1 million, as it campaigned on that during the last election and I believe it will do so again next time. We are pleased that the threshold for inheritance tax has been frozen throughout our time in Government, because we feel it is the right thing to do at this time. We also saw industrial-scale tax avoidance under the previous Government, and many cases now arriving in court go back to the days when they were in power. The idea that this Government are not taxing the wealthy does not stand up to examination.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
I don’t think we use that language, either.
Mark Field
I am sure that the right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr Field) would agree.
The hon. Member for Redcar (Ian Swales) is making an important and courageous speech from the Liberal Democrat Benches. It is one that many of us on the Conservative Benches could have made, and I thank him for putting some of the issues that have been raised today into perspective. There has been a lot of outrage on the Opposition Benches but it is important that the history of precisely what went on during the previous Labour Government is put on the record.
Ian Swales
I thank the hon. Gentleman for that. I agree that it is important: the narrative that Labour taxes the rich until the pips squeak and that we do not does not stand up to examination.
Sir Andrew Stunell (Hazel Grove) (LD)
May I add some grist to my hon. Friend’s mill by asking whether he agrees that it is astonishing that during 13 years in government the Labour party never found the time to impose VAT on the purchase of private jets? The coalition Government have introduced that.
Ian Swales
My right hon. Friend’s remarks stand on the record. Perhaps what he has said can tell us something about the travel movements of a previous Business Secretary, whom I will come back to in a moment.
The new clause also refers to levels of bank bonuses. As I understand it, the Opposition want in future to tax bank bonuses at 100%, with 50% on the individual and 50% through the bank. What assessment have they done of what that policy will do to the level of bank bonuses? It seems like another example in which the headline comes first and the policy follows behind.
The Opposition had 13 years to deliver their vision for the country. If we look at all the various levels of tax that they presided over, they carried out the wish of the former Secretary of State for Business to whom I have just referred, the former right hon. Member for Hartlepool, who said that he was
“intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich”.
Frank Dobson
Uncharacteristically, I will come to the aid of the former right hon. Member for Hartlepool, because his sentence went on to say—and it was the same sentence—
“providing they pay their fair share of tax”.
Ian Swales
The right hon. Gentleman makes a fair point. Throughout the last Parliament, that fair share was deemed to be 40% on the top rate until the very last day. We should judge the Labour party on what it did, not on what it now says.
On the new clause, I am not sure that we state in Bills that there should be reports. It betrays a desperation that we should all reject.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
The Minister will respond just before 2.50 and we have four more speakers.
John McDonnell
I will be fairly brief.
Under the last Government, I moved amendments like the new clause on virtually every Finance Bill. It has always made me anxious when Governments resist the requirement to provide information. That is all that is sought in the new clause. It simply looks to ensure that the House is properly informed about the impact of a differential tax rate. For the life of me, I could not understand why such amendments were resisted by the last Government, and I cannot understand why the new clause is being resisted now.
Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con)
On the point about being informed, does the hon. Gentleman think it unwise that the Leader of the Opposition has already stated that he will increase the rate to 50p?
John McDonnell
I want openness and transparency. I would prefer people to put their cards on the table in the run-up to the general election, so that the electorate know where everyone stands. It would be invaluable for all parties in the House to have the information that is requested in the new clause, so that they could test it and see whether the hypothesis that has been put forward by the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood) and others is accurate. I do not believe that it is.
This debate goes much wider than the 50p rate of income tax. Members need to wake up to that. A few months ago, the Mayor of London ordered water cannon in case there are more demonstrations and riots. There is a deep feeling of unease and a building anger in our community about inequality. People do not usually mobilise and go out on the streets in the depths of a recession. Let us look at what has happened elsewhere: people get angry, mobilise and go out on the streets when they feel that the country is coming out of recession, but they are not sharing in the benefits from the sacrifices that have been made. We have asked people in this country to make immense sacrifices.
We should look at the various reports that have come out. A few months ago the Oxfam report exposed the fact that for the first time more of the people who are in poverty are in work than out of work. More children are therefore growing up in poverty in working families than in non-working families. I think that that is a first in the history of this country. A survey by Save the Children showed that, as a result of poverty, a staggering number of parents are going without food so that their children can eat. It showed the number of children who have never had a winter coat because their parents are unable to afford one. All that is building up into a significant anger about the inequality in our society.
Taxation rates are therefore not just about the income that they raise; they are about tackling inequality. The right hon. Member for Wokingham said that this has been happening over a long period. We now live in a society that is more unequal than it has been since Victorian times. It is true that for a short period in this recession, the Gini coefficient went down for two years. However, according to HMRC figures, it started rising again in 2012-13. I think that that will provoke anger in our community. Politicians need to be aware of that anger. Unless we do something about it, it will be difficult to contain.
That is why Governments need to be seen to be addressing the appalling inequality in our society. One way of doing that is to redistribute wealth, as Governments ought to do. The new clause does not talk about the vast maldistribution of wealth in our society. One publication from the Treasury revealed:
“The top 10% of earners in Britain have salaries which are equal to more than the bottom 40% of earners”.
That is absolutely staggering, and that is just about earnings: in some FTSE 100 companies, the chief executive and the directors earn 166 times the average wage of the workers.
Taxation is about addressing inequality. The new clause simply looks at one element of taxation and asks for an accurate report on whether it helps in the redistribution of wealth and in tackling inequality.
Richard Fuller
The hon. Gentleman has expressed his concerns about rising inequality. Why does he think the Opposition have been so timid in proposing remedies? Are they afraid of something? Are they worried what the media might say?
John McDonnell
I will give the Labour party the benefit of the doubt. It has the national policy forum at the weekend, where there is the discussion and development of policy. That is the healthiest level of democracy we have had in the party for a number of years. I hope that it is bubbling up into a comprehensive programme that we can put before the electorate and that addresses the central issue of inequality. One way of doing that is to have accurate information before us, which is what the new clause seeks.
I will finish there because I know that other Members want to speak. I just warn the House that unless we address inequality, we will reap a whirlwind in our society. We saw riots only a few years ago. I think that the injustices in the distribution of wealth will provoke even greater conflict in our society unless it is addressed.
Chi Onwurah
I shall be brief. The new clause would force the Chancellor to publish a report that made it clear how the Government were balancing the books on the backs of the poor. [Interruption.] Ministers may laugh, but that is why they are afraid to make the information available. The benefits of rising prosperity and productivity are increasingly concentrated on a small group at the top.
At the same time, there is growing evidence that economic inequality is a drag on the economy. Business profits, literally, from being part of a better functioning and more equal society. Businesses can function only when people form a society that is structured around the principles of trust, responsibility and fairness.
Chi Onwurah
I will not give way because other Members want to speak.
From the “The Spirit Level” by Wilkinson and Pickett through “Capital in the Twenty-First Century” by the current economic rock star Thomas Piketty to “The Entrepreneurial State” by Mariana Mazzucato, economists and social scientists are raising their voices against the claims from Government Members that inequality is good for growth. Recent analysis concluded that
“inequality is bad for both the magnitude and sustainability of growth”.
Before Government Members jump in, that is the view not of some left-leaning sociologist but of the International Monetary Fund.
Equally, President Obama’s chief economic adviser has said that reducing inequality is good for growth. In other words, we must not balance the efforts to reduce the deficit unfairly on the poor, as they are less likely to be in a position to reap the benefits of any growth that follows. None the less, that is exactly what the Government are seeking to do.
The new clause would make the impact of the Government’s policies absolutely clear. I know what the impact of their policies is from my Newcastle surgeries. One constituent who is on a low income uses his so-called second bedroom to store his wheelchair and oxygen bottles. The result is rent arrears and constant anxiety. The threat of eviction hangs over his head. He is only hanging on because he believes that the next Labour Government will abolish the hated bedroom tax. And yet, at the other end of the income scale, taxes are being cut. If the rest of the House does not join Labour in voting for the new clause, people will know what to think.
The next Labour Government will reverse the £3 billion tax cut for the top 1% of earners to ensure that the books are balanced in a fairer way. We will cut taxes for 24 million working people on middle and low incomes with a lower 10p starting rate of income tax. At the next election, the Labour party will put an alternative vision to this Government’s classic 1980s trickle-down economics to the British people. Our vision is to build a new kind of economy that works for communities and ordinary people, and that does not put a premium on social and economic inequality.
Ian Murray
It is a great pleasure, as always, to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne Central (Chi Onwurah). New clause 14 is simple, and I cannot understand why the Government would not want to produce figures showing whether the 50p tax rate raises more or less money. When the Budget was announced, the Red Book stated that the tax cut would cost £3 billion. If politics is the art of the possible, it is also about priorities, and if we consider the priorities of this Government, we see clearly why that cut was unfair and should be reversed, and why the Government should accept new clause 14 and state why they think that lowering taxes for millionaires is the right thing to do.
We have already heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne Central about the bedroom tax—that was a priority introduced by this Government. The bedroom tax raises only 10%, if not less, of the £3 billion that the 50p tax rate cost. The use of food banks has exploded across the country in all our constituencies, which is a disgrace in a modern society, and people on welfare are waiting for their personal independence payment applications to be processed—at the current rate it will take perhaps 42 years. Tuition fees have trebled, which is hitting young people and aspiration in this country, and we have seen the NHS privatised, with money spent on a top-down reorganisation that nobody voted for. Those are the priorities that the Government have introduced, which is why it is important to get from them in black and white as part of the Finance Bill the implications of what a tax rate does, what it raises, what it does not raise, and how much other levels of tax could raise. It may be that some of the pernicious policies introduced by the Government could be reversed if they realised that they could raise more money from different levels of taxation.
Ian Murray
I am afraid we do not have much time, but if there is time at the end I will take an intervention.
Many hon. Members have mentioned the wages crisis in this country, which is of course connected to taxation. We also have a cost of living crisis: people will be £1,600 a year worse off by 2015. We have a youth unemployment crisis, and we are in danger of writing off another generation of young people, as happened in the 1980s when all those wonderful top rate reductions in tax were being made; and we have the lowest rate of house building since the 1920s. All these are priorities that the Government could put to the top of their policy agenda instead of concentrating on a tax cut for the wealthiest.
On the back of all this, we have a Chancellor who has set golden rules for the economic cycle but who has failed on pretty much all of them, while taking £3 billion from the Treasury’s coffers with this tax cut. The UK has lost its triple A rating, and not only will the Government not balance the books by the end of this Parliament, but they will borrow £75 billion this year alone— £190 billion more than planned. They have missed their targets for the deficit and for debt, and they broke every fiscal rule that they set themselves. What is their answer to the conundrum? It is to cut the top rate of income tax for the very richest in the country. Everyone has seen an increase in VAT, which is the most regressive tax; and we have had the granny tax—the list is endless. If politics is about priorities, the Government should come forward with a report, as suggested in new clause 14, and say how much the tax would raise or not raise. We can then decide whether it was the right idea and priority to lower that tax, alongside the long list of this Government’s failures, including social policy failures.
I was interested to hear the intervention from the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards), who is no longer in his place. He wanted to talk about the 50p tax rate. I am very surprised that our Scottish nationalists have not mentioned it—they refuse to confirm whether or not an independent Scotland would back a 50p tax rate because the answer is no.
Ian Murray
I am being told to wrap up, so I shall do so by saying that a tax cut for this country costs £3 billion, according to the Treasury’s figures. The Government are standing up for the wrong people, they have the wrong policies, and new clause 14 needs to be approved by the House.
Stewart Hosie
On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Can you confirm that if an hon. Member is mentioned in the Chamber, the Member who mentioned them is obliged to accept the intervention?
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
We both know that the hon. Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) is not obliged to give way. The hon. Member for Dundee East (Stewart Hosie) has made the point well, and I am sure the hon. Member for Edinburgh South will finish now because Frank Dobson is waiting.
Ian Murray
I meant no discourtesy to the hon. Member for Dundee East (Stewart Hosie), but you were indicating that I should wrap up my speech, Mr Deputy Speaker; otherwise, I would have allowed the hon. Gentleman to intervene. Perhaps he will speak later and tell us his views on the Scottish Government’s refusal to back a 50p tax rate.
Mr Deputy Speaker
I assure the hon. Gentleman that the Chair is not going to take a decision or be blamed for anybody.
Frank Dobson
I strongly support new clause 14. It would appear that the Treasury’s Orwellian motto is “Ignorance is strength”. It is not just that the Treasury will not have this study done, but it has not had it done and does not know the answer. The Government are clearly afraid of the answer; what have they got to hide? That is typical of the current Treasury position. On a number of occasions I have asked the Treasury what estimate it has made of the income that would come to it from the implementation of a Tobin tax or Robin Hood tax—a tax on financial transactions such as that being sensibly suggested by Mrs Merkel for the rest of Europe. The answer I get is that the Treasury has never made any such estimates. Having never made any estimate of the possible income—and apparently never estimating what it would cost the City of London—the Treasury nevertheless states that it would be fatal for the City to impose a tax of 0.05% on financial transactions, when every other business in the country pays a 20% tax on transactions known as VAT. It appears that the Treasury is into “Ignorance is strength”.
We constantly hear from those on the Tory Benches about the wonders of Mrs Thatcher and how we should follow her example, so I remind them that for nine of the 11 years that she was Prime Minister, the top rate of income tax was 60p in the pound. Apparently, people managed to pay it. Apparently the money came in, and even rich people did not need a greater incentive to turn up at work.
Frank Dobson
No, I will not give way—[Interruption.] Well, I have sat here throughout the whole debate and listened to what other people had to say, so I am going to get a little further in.
One thing that is particularly irksome for badly off people in this country is hearing apologists for the City talking about bankers’ compensation packages—compensation apparently for the horrid requirement that they turn up at work. The dictionary definition of compensation is,
“recompense for loss, suffering or injury”.
Those bankers—how they suffer when they are helping people to swindle their tax liabilities; laundering money for gun runners or drug runners; or fiddling money to help people evade sanctions and then having to pay up. We clearly need to ensure that those rich people pay more tax, and the only way to do that is by increasing the rate to at least 50p.
Mr Gauke
It is always a great pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Frank Dobson). He suggested that the motto of the Treasury was “Ignorance is strength”. If that is the case, let me say that his was a very strong speech.
New clause 14 calls for the Chancellor to—
Frank Dobson
Can the Minister identify anything I said that was factually incorrect? [Interruption.]
Mr Gauke
Someone says most of it, but in the time available, I ought to turn to the new clause.
The new clause calls for the Chancellor to publish a report within three months of passing the Act to set out the impact of setting the additional rate at 50% for the tax year 2015-16. In addition, it asks for an assessment of the impact of reducing the additional rate to 45% for 2013-14 on the amount of income tax paid by those with a taxable income of more than £250,000 a year and those with a taxable income of more than £1 million a year, as well as on all those who are liable for the additional rate. It also proposes that the report set out the impact of reducing the additional rate on the level of bonuses awarded in April 2013 to employees in the financial sector. I hope that there will be no controversy when I say that, in order to be credible, any such analysis would need to take into account behavioural impacts, as did the HMRC report on the additional rate that was published at Budget 2012. It is clearly inadequate to look simply at theoretical income tax liabilities when increasing taxes.
Let me use this opportunity to assure hon. Members once more that the Government already consider the impact of any policy decisions taken. The HMRC report on the additional rate concluded that the underlying yield from the introduction of the 50p rate was much lower than originally forecast, due to large behavioural effects.
Mr Gauke
I want to make this point, then I will give way.
Let me address the matter of behavioural effects. The hon. Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Shabana Mahmood) conflated the issue of behavioural effects with tax avoidance, and seemed to suggest that the two were synonymous. That is simply not the case. What does the term “behavioural effects” include? If someone decides to retire earlier than they would otherwise do, that is a behavioural effect. If someone decides to leave the country and go to work elsewhere, that is a behavioural effect. If a multinational company, when deciding where to locate a new team, decides to go to another country rather than the UK, that too is a behavioural effect. If someone decides to put more money into their pension—making use of pension tax relief as Parliament has intended—that is also a behavioural effect.
In the eyes of the Opposition, all of that constitutes tax avoidance, and we have been asked why we do nothing about it. I do not know whether they are suggesting that we should take away people’s passports so that they cannot emigrate, or that we should somehow force companies to locate their staff here. Those decisions are behavioural effects over which we have no control, and we have to respond to the reality of the world as it is, rather than as some people might like it to be.
David Wright
Does the Minister accept that the Office for National Statistics and the Office for Budget Responsibility have said that, after the Chancellor made his Budget announcement about the tax rate, people delayed and deferred bonuses and shuffled their cash around to avoid the system? Is this not actually about very rich people shuffling their money around in order to avoid tax? We need a simple system with a 50p rate, and we need to study it over a long time to determine its impact.
Mr Gauke
The important point here is that the HMRC analysis explicitly dealt with that issue. Yes, there will be instances in which sums are shifted from one year to another, just as happened when the previous Government announced the introduction of the 50p rate. People brought forward income at that point. The analysis took those behavioural changes into account and excluded them, and still concluded that the 50p rate was ineffective in raising money. Given that HMRC has already carried out that analysis and reached that conclusion, which is consistent with the academic research in this area, and given that the IFS has said that no substantial sums were involved, would the Opposition be determined to go ahead with a 50p rate even though the evidence suggested that it would not raise money? That seems to be their ideological position. It would be illogical and unfair to reintroduce a tax rate that was ineffective at raising revenue from high earners, that made ordinary taxpayers pay more and that risked damaging growth.
Shabana Mahmood
The Minister will acknowledge that the IFS has said that this whole area would benefit from greater research. Now that HMRC has more data, that research would perhaps produce more accurate results. Will he take that point on board and support our new clause?
Mr Gauke
There is no evidence that HMRC’s original analysis was wrong. When the Opposition announced earlier this year that Labour would introduce a 50p rate, they claimed that a new £10 billion had emerged that had previously not been taken into account. That turned out not to be the case, however; they got that completely wrong. The data still point in the direction that HMRC’s conclusions are as I have suggested, and there is no reason to believe that the analysis was wrong. The fact is that the 50p rate is an ineffective way of raising money from the wealthiest.
Richard Fuller
Is the Minister as concerned as I am that Labour Members are not simply calling for a 50p rate? We have also heard calls for a 60p and a 70p rate. Are they not trying to set the tone for what has already been introduced in France—namely, a rate that is much higher than 50%?
Mr Gauke
I note the fact that the right hon. Member for Holborn and St Pancras referred to a rate of “at least 50p”, and I suspect that he speaks for many of his colleagues in that regard. The fact is that there is an ideological divide involved here, in that the Opposition want the higher rate, regardless of the practicalities.
The reality is that, if we want to raise money from the wealthiest, a high rate of income tax is ineffective. My right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood) made it clear that the changes in the 1980s resulted in more income being raised from the wealthiest. If we want to raise money from the wealthiest, there are much better ways of doing it, as my hon. Friend the Member for Redcar (Ian Swales) said. For example, we have taken a number of steps to deal with avoidance and disguised remuneration—those measures were opposed by Labour, by the way—and to deal with stamp duty avoidance. We have increased stamp duty rates. We have also introduced measures relating to capital gains tax and restricted the cost of the pensions tax relief. Those measures have raised far more than the revenue forgone from the 50p rate.
We talk about priorities. Let me set out one fact for the House. Even if we put aside the additional sums raised from the wealthiest, and even if we put aside the damage to competitiveness from the 50p rate, for every £1 forgone as a result of our measures on the 50p rate, we have forgone £160 as a consequence of the increase in the personal allowance. That is where our priorities lie, and I am proud of that record.
Mr Redwood
Will my hon. Friend confirm that the Treasury publishes figures every month on tax collection, and that they show that the rich are paying more?
Shabana Mahmood
We have had a good debate on our new clause. As I expected, the tone of the Minister’s remarks suggests that he will not take the opportunity to support it, despite accepting the fact that the Institute for Fiscal Studies has joined us in saying that more research, data and analysis are necessary if we are to get a complete answer on the issues of data and yield relating to a 50p top rate of tax. I note that he did not answer my earlier question about that. If he wants to say to the country that his Government have cut the 50p rate with justification, he should not have shown himself to be afraid of such data. The Government should have agreed to the new clause, as its proposals would have settled the matter once and for all. I ask again, what does the Minister have to be afraid of? We will be pressing the new clause to a vote.
John McDonnell
Let us get the figures clear. On the percentage of gross income that goes on taxes, for the bottom quintile it is 37.4% and for the top quintile it is 35%. The poorest pay more.
Shabana Mahmood
I am glad that my hon. Friend has put that point on the record—
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment 67, in clause 107, page 90, line 33, at end insert—
‘(5A) The Chancellor of the Exchequer shall, within six months of this Act receiving Royal Assent, publish and lay before the House of Commons a report setting out the impact of changes made to Schedule 19 of the Finance Act 1999 by this section.
(5B) The report referred to in subsection (5A) must in particular consider—
(a) the impact on tax revenues;
(b) the expected beneficiaries; and
(c) a distributional analysis of the beneficiaries.”
Mr Gauke
New clause 7 rectifies a minor omission from clause 105 by applying the reduction of the threshold to £500,000 for the 15% stamp duty land tax higher rate charge to the SDLT relief for the exercise of collective rights by tenants of flats.
Clause 105 reduces the starting threshold for the 15% higher rate SDLT charge from £2 million to £500,000 for transactions where the effective date is on, or after, 20 March 2014. This is part of a package of measures including changes to the annual tax on envelope dwellings and the ATED-related capital gains tax charge. The purpose of these measures is to tackle tax avoidance and to ensure that those who wrap residential property in corporate and other envelopes, and do not use them for a genuine commercial purpose, pay a fair share of tax. However, clause 105 omitted to apply the reduction to the SDLT relief in section 74 of the Finance Act 2003.
This relief benefits lessees of flats who collectively acquire freehold of their block under rights afforded by the Landlord and Tenant Act 1987 and the Leasehold, Reform, Housing and Urban Development Act 1993. The relief sets the rate of SDLT according to the consideration given for the freehold divided by the number of flats. This brings the amount of SDLT paid by lessees more into line with what they might have paid had they been able to acquire the freehold of their flat separately. These acquisitions are commonly undertaken by a company in which the lessees are shareholders. In these circumstances, the 15% higher rate of SDLT will apply if the average consideration exceeds the higher rate threshold.
The changes made by new clause 7 mean that where lessees of flats purchase the freehold of their block through a company and claim relief, SDLT will be charged on the purchase price at 15% if that price divided by the number of flats comes to more than £500,000. The new £500,000 threshold applies to the relief where the effective date of the purchase, usually the date of completion, is on or after 1 July 2014. Transitional provisions will, in the great majority of cases, preserve the existing £2 million threshold where contracts were entered into before 20 March 2014. We estimate that the impact of this minor change will be negligible. In practice, very few transactions of this kind are likely to attract SDLT at 15%. I understand that no tax has been put at risk by delaying the implementation of this change.
On stamp duty reserve tax, amendment 67, tabled by Opposition Members, asks for the Government to lay before Parliament, within six months of the Bill receiving Royal Assent, a report setting out the impact of clause 107 on tax revenues and who benefits from it. The Government announced at Budget 2013 that they would abolish the schedule 19 charge as part of their investment management strategy to improve the UK’s competitiveness as a domicile for collective investment schemes.
Schedule 19 is a special stamp duty reserve tax charge levied on UK collective investment schemes, or “funds”. A charge arises when investors surrender back to the fund manager firm either their units in UK unit trust schemes, or shares in UK open-ended investment companies. It is paid by the fund management firm, but the cost is ultimately borne by the investors in schemes. The investors are largely pension schemes, life companies and individual savers. It is worth stressing that this charge is payable only by UK schemes. An identical scheme established outside the UK would not be subject to the charge, placing the UK at a competitive disadvantage as a domicile for collective investment schemes. Investors who do not wish to pay the schedule 19 charge already have the option of investing in funds domiciled offshore.
The schedule 19 regime is regarded as complex and burdensome, requiring frequent tax calculations and returns to be sent to HMRC. Additionally, because of how the tax operates, its headline rate implies a much greater tax burden than the annual cost actually suffered. This is difficult to explain to investors and gives rise to presentational complications when trying to market UK funds, especially overseas. It is for these reasons that schedule 19 was identified as a major deterrent to domiciling funds in the UK, with a particularly damaging effect on the ability of UK funds to attract non-UK investors. Clause 107 repeals part 2 of schedule 19 to the Finance Act 1999, thereby abolishing the schedule 19 charge. This levels the playing field between the UK and other countries as domiciles for collective investment schemes. The abolition has effect from 30 March 2014.
The Government rightly keep all tax policy under review, but there would be little merit in producing a report in the way suggested by the amendment. We have already had the impact of this measure independently assessed by the Government Actuary’s Department. It has calculated that a typical 22-year-old currently earning average weekly earnings and investing the equivalent of 10% of gross income each year over a 45-year period would see a fund value £11,200 greater at retirement as a result of this change—equivalent to approximately 1.3% uplift in total fund at retirement. In current money terms, that is equivalent to an additional £4,600.
I stress again that the schedule 19 charge is borne by investors and not by fund managers. Data from the Investment Management Association suggest about 85% of the charge is borne by pension and insurance companies together with retail and public-sector investors. Therefore, these underlying investors are beneficiaries of the change. Furthermore, as the new auto-enrolment of workers into pension schemes changes the pensions landscape, even more ordinary hard-working people will benefit from the change in future. Further detail on the distributional impact of the measure has already been included in the tax information and impact note produced in December alongside the draft legislation.
As for the benefits due to the improved competitiveness of the UK as a fund domicile location, the time taken to authorise and launch new funds means that any positive effects of the change would not have had time to become established. Therefore, such a report would be premature. For the avoidance of doubt, let me also reiterate the point—which the Government have made on many occasions—that abolishing schedule 19 to the Finance Act 1999 is not a tax cut for hedge fund managers or hedge funds, which have in fact never paid tax under the schedule 19 charge. I noticed that the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson) was very careful in Committee not to say that it was a tax cut for hedge funds or hedge fund managers, and I would be grateful if she confirmed that that is the case.
James Duddridge (Rochford and Southend East) (Con)
I sense from the mood of the House that the Opposition are thinking of opposing new clause 7. If they are, will my hon. Friend make it clear how many hard-working savers will be hit by not receiving this benefit?
Mr Gauke
My hon. Friend makes an important point. It is investors in pension schemes who will bear the cost. The UK investment management industry, which exists up and down the country—we had a debate about the regional nature of that industry—will also be damaged. The cost makes it hard for UK-domiciled funds to compete. We want UK-domiciled funds to compete. [Interruption.] Maybe that is not Labour’s position, although I note that the shadow Chief Secretary seems to be accepting from a sedentary position that this is not a tax cut for hedge funds.
Mr Gauke
Again—I hope the record will pick that up—this is for investment managers, not hedge fund managers. That is the argument the hon. Gentleman is making, which is different from the argument we have heard from the Opposition on occasions. For example, in July last year, the Leader of the Opposition accused us of making a tax cut for hedge funds. In the shadow Chancellor’s response to the autumn statement in December last year—he gave a speech that many of us will remember for a long time—he called on the Government to reverse the tax cut for hedge funds. It appears that the Labour Front-Bench position is to accept that there is no tax cut for hedge funds. That, I suppose, is progress. [Interruption.] As the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun says, it is for investment managers, not hedge funds. She is still wrong, but she is perhaps less awry than she was. That is progress, and I hope that the Leader of the Opposition and the shadow Chancellor will withdraw any suggestion of a tax cut for hedge funds. We will be looking out to see whether that features in any Labour party promotional material over the months ahead, but I am glad we have made progress on that front at least.
In conclusion, clause 107 supports the Government’s objective to create a more competitive tax system and will increase the attractiveness of the UK as a location for fund domicile. Amendment 67 would serve no useful purpose, given the information already made available about this measure. New clause 7 rectifies a minor omission from clause 105 and ensures that the reduction in the SDLT higher rate threshold to £500,000 operates as intended. I therefore move that new clause 7 be accepted and request that amendment 67 not be pressed.
Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)
Let me begin where the Minister left off, on new clause 7. It is worth noting that section 74 of the Finance Act 2003 provides SDLT relief for lessees of flats who collectively acquire the freehold of their block under rights afforded by the Landlord and Tenant Act 1987 and the Leasehold Reform, Housing and Urban Development Act 1993. The relief sets the rate of SDLT according to the consideration for the freehold divided by the number of flats, which brings the amount of SDLT paid by lessees more into line with what they might have paid had they been able to acquire the freehold of their flats separately. As the Minister said, such acquisitions are commonly undertaken by a company in which the lessees are shareholders. Under such circumstances, the 15%, higher rate SDLT charge in schedule 4A to the Finance Act 2003 will apply if the main consideration exceeds the higher rate threshold.
The Minister pointed out that clause 105 reduces the higher rate threshold from £2 million to £500,000 for transactions where the effective date is on or after 20 March 2014. However, clause 105 omitted to apply the reduction to the relief in schedule 74 to the Finance Act 2003, an omission that new clause 7 rectifies. It is welcome that the Minister has brought forward something to deal with that earlier omission and I will therefore not take issue with him on that at present.
Let me turn to amendment 67 and stamp duty reserve tax. I hope hon. Members will forgive me if I confess to having a sense of déjà vu, because it is not the first time we have debated this issue. Not only did we debate it in Committee, as the Minister acknowledged; we also debated it in last year’s Finance Bill. In fact, it is almost a year ago to the day that my esteemed colleague the hon. Member for Nottingham East (Chris Leslie) was standing at this Dispatch Box trying, as I will be, to make the Government see sense and accept our call for a report to be published. [Interruption.] I think my hon. Friend is indicating that he failed on that occasion.
Cathy Jamieson
The hon. Gentleman says I am a better woman, but I have to confess that I was not able to persuade the Minister in Committee. However, as always, I am an optimist by nature, so I will venture forth today in the hope, even at this late stage, that the Government can be made to see the light and accept our call for a report to be published.
As I mentioned, it is almost a year ago to the day that my colleague the hon. Member for Nottingham East was standing at this Dispatch Box. It would be remiss of me not to remark briefly that, some 15 years ago to the day, I was in the Scottish Parliament for the formal opening of that august institution. If anyone had suggested to me then that 15 years later I would be standing at this Dispatch Box discussing stamp duty reserve tax, I might have fled and looked for something else to do. Who knows? It certainly was not something that was on my agenda at that point.
However, to return to the amendment, for the benefit of anyone who may have forgotten, amidst all the excitement of the last year, exactly what we were speaking about on that occasion, I want briefly to recap some of the key points from the debate. It is worth noting what our amendment 67 proposes. For those who are following this debate with avid interest, it asks the Government to insert at the end of clause 107, page 90, line 33 a new section 5A, stating:
“The Chancellor of the Exchequer shall, within six months of this Act receiving Royal Assent, publish and lay before the House of Commons a report setting out the impact of changes made to Schedule 19 of the Finance Act 1999 by this section.”
A new section 5B is then proposed:‘
“The report referred to in subsection (5A) must in particular consider…the impact on tax revenues;…the expected beneficiaries; and…a distributional analysis of the beneficiaries.”
I shall return to those issues in responding to the Minister’s points.
Mr McKenzie
Why does my hon. Friend think that the Government are so reluctant to produce this report if, indeed, they see the change as beneficial to all? We see this £160 million giveaway as being beneficial to only one particular group, and not our constituents.
Cathy Jamieson
I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. I can only hazard a guess as to why the Government consistently refuse to look at producing any report or to accept any of the requests—quite reasonable requests—that we have brought forward, seeking further information, further transparency and these particular pieces of information. I am forced to conclude either that the work has not been done or that the Government, for whatever reason, do not wish to share those facts and figures with us. That is a pity because it would help hon. Members of all parties if this information were put forward. I shall come on to deal in a few moments with some of my hon. Friend’s other points, particularly regarding how his and my constituents will be affected.
As the Minister said, the Government new clause removes the stamp duty reserve tax charge for which fund managers are liable when investors sell or surrender their units in UK unit trust schemes or shares in UK open-ended investment companies. Some people have argued that SDRT could essentially be considered as some form of transaction tax—not a term that everybody would use, but it has certainly been argued in that context—currently levied at what seems to be a not unreasonable rate of 0.5%. This is the element that the Government propose to remove.
As I have indicated, our amendment would require the Chancellor to publish a report—I always try to be reasonable, fair minded and mild mannered in my requests to the Minister, as he knows from our many discussions in Committee—to show exactly who benefits and who would be left worse off through the abolition of SDRT on investments in those units trusts and OEICs. As I said in Committee, in these straitened times, hon. Members—as my hon. Friend the Member for Inverclyde (Mr McKenzie) suggested—could be forgiven for assuming that such a generous tax break would fall to those who really need it, such as the millions of hard-working taxpayers who are £1,600 a year worse off under this Government than they were in 2010.
Cathy Jamieson
I will give way to the Minister, who I am sure will want to tell me what he is doing for those hard-working taxpayers.
Cathy Jamieson
As I said in Committee and as we have seen in some of the to-ing and fro-ing this afternoon, this tax cut relates to investment fund managers. I hope the Minister will listen very carefully to my points. As my hon. Friend the Member for Inverclyde and I have said, the families that, according to the Institute for Fiscal Studies, will be £978 a year worse off by the next election thanks to the Government’s tax and benefits changes will want to know exactly who benefits from this particular tax cut. I am sure that the Minister is now going to tell us how giving investment fund managers that tax cut will provide support and assistance for the hard-working families in my and my hon. Friend’s constituencies.
Mr Gauke
I have already set out how this tax cut will benefit those contributing towards their pension. I take it from the hon. Lady’s earlier answer to my intervention that she accepts that this is not a tax cut for hedge funds. Will she explain precisely what the Leader of the Opposition was on about when on 10 July 2013 he told the Prime Minister in Prime Minister’s Question Time that there was a £145 million tax cut for “hedge funds”? The Leader of the Opposition was wrong, was he not?
Cathy Jamieson
I am going to come on to the issue of who benefits, but I noticed that, once again, the Minister was not able to say how this particular tax cut proposed by the Government is going to benefit our constituents.
Let me deal with the Government’s tax impact note, which provides some information, saying that the chief beneficiaries of this particular initiative will be the 100 UK fund managers who control 2,500 investment schemes. Hon. Members would doubtless be very concerned if they thought that the overall health of the UK’s investment industry was somehow at risk, which is why the initiative was brought forward. One might think that it was somewhat ailing if it was deserving of a tax cut amounting to, as my hon. Friend the Member for Inverclyde said, £160 million a year. However, if we look at the reality of the industry, we could readily say that it is in pretty good health, raising the question of whether the industry really needs the Government’s help, which could more usefully be put to assisting those hard-working families feeling the squeeze as a result of Government policy.
According to the Investment Management Association, as of January 2014, its members managed over £4.8 billion in the UK on the basis of OEIC funds alone and around £4.5 trillion overall. The association also tells us:
“UK assets under management and funds under management are at record levels, and the UK retains its position as the second largest asset management centre in the world after the US.”
It could well be argued, therefore, that the UK’s investment industry is doing okay— without the intervention or assistance of the Government.
Cathy Jamieson
I will give way to the hon. Gentleman if he will tell me how this particular tax cut benefits my constituents and those of my hon. Friend the Member for Inverclyde.
Simon Kirby
I have been listening carefully to the points the hon. Lady is attempting to make. I still do not understand, however, whether hedge fund managers will benefit from this change; it seems quite clear that they will not.
Cathy Jamieson
If the Government, of course, were to produce the report requested in this mild-mannered, sensible and reasonable amendment, we would perhaps have more information on who would benefit—exactly what amendment 67 calls for.
Mr Gauke
The hon. Lady always puts forward her proposals very reasonably, but I have to tell her that there is no need for a report on this issue. Schedule 19 stamp duty reserve tax is not paid by hedge funds, so abolishing schedule 19 SDRT does not benefit hedge funds. Does she accept the point that this has nothing to do with hedge funds?
Cathy Jamieson
I want to move on to discuss further who exactly it does benefit, which is the crucial point. We sometimes hear from the industry that there is some kind of existential threat presented by people moving to Luxembourg, Switzerland or wherever else, but it seems that despite all that, the industry is, as I said, in pretty good health.
One of the things that worry Opposition Members is that the only people about whom the Government seem to be genuinely concerned are those who are already wealthy and privileged. They have cut the top rate of income tax for those earning more than £150,000 per annum—we discussed that earlier, so I shall not say more about it at this stage—and, as bank bonuses rise again, they continue to oppose our proposal for a bank bonus tax to help young people back into work. They have failed to balance the books, as they promised to do, yet it seems that they can still find £160 million a year for those who may not need it as much as others.
Mr McKenzie
Is it not typical of the Government that they can find that £160 million while telling our constituents that times are still hard and they must tighten their belts? The cost of living is driving many of them to despair.
Cathy Jamieson
Once again, my hon. Friend has made a very valid point. As he says, many of our constituents in the real world are at the point of despair. VAT has risen, tax credits have been cut, and wages have not kept pace. As my hon. Friend knows very well from his own area, many people are on zero-hours contracts, or are working fewer hours than they would like. Furthermore, the bedroom tax—which we have debated on numerous occasions, and which has been mentioned earlier today—is still having an impact on many people throughout the country.
While all that is happening—and while our constituents are continually coming to our surgeries and contacting us in other ways to tell us about the problems in their lives and how difficult it is to make ends meet—the Government still cling to the notion that the much vaunted recovery is benefiting everyone. I must tell the Minister—I am sure that he has heard similar comments even from Members on his own Benches—that those benefits are not being felt by most of my constituents, and I suspect that they are not being felt by most of the constituents of my hon. Friend the Member for Inverclyde, whose seat is not far from mine.
I could not swear to this, but I strongly suspect that if I asked my constituents what one policy would really improve their quality of life and living standards, they would not be queuing up to tell me that the answer was tax cuts for investment funds. I may be wrong, and I have no doubt that the Government would advance a different argument. Perhaps they would argue that the removal of SDRT for unit trusts and OEICs will produce a fair and proportionate tax rate which will create jobs, revitalise communities and rejuvenate local economies, for that certainly seems to be what they are trying to claim. During last year’s debate, the then Financial Secretary to the Treasury implied that it would create more jobs in regional economies by encouraging investment funds to move to the United Kingdom. What concerned us at the time was the fact that there was scant evidence to back up any of that, and, I cannot, try as I may, find any additional supporting evidence in the tax information impact note attached to this year’s Bill.
In Committee, the Minister told us a wonderfully heart-warming story—to which he has referred again today—about a 22-year-old investor who would benefit from the Government’s changes to the tune of some £4,600. At that time, I questioned whether this was a real 22-year-old who had been found by the Government Actuary’s Department—where from, I do not know. Perhaps the Minister now knows whether it was a real live 22-year-old. In any event, I was interested in the notion.
Mr McKenzie
My hon. Friend has described a number of desperate scenarios with which the Government could help to deal, but they have chosen the desperate scenario of a fund that has grown by 6.5% for the last four years and is worth trillions of pounds, and have decided to give this particular desperate fund an extra £160 million.
Cathy Jamieson
As I said earlier, one thing that the Government could do and have consistently refused to do would help thousands of people throughout the country: they could abolish the hated bedroom tax. They could also accept our proposal for a tax on bankers’ bonuses, and adopt our properly designed programme to get young people back into work and give them the start that they want. Until we get young people into work, ensure that they have adequate housing and ensure that they can have a decent quality of life, the majority will not have an opportunity to think about saving from one year to the next, let alone trying to invest for the longer term. In Committee, I asked whether it was only me—or only Opposition Members—who held this view. My hon. Friend the Member for Gateshead (Ian Mearns) made a powerful speech in which, like my hon. Friend the Member for Inverclyde, he described the reality of what was happening to young people in his constituency.
I have looked at the tax information impact note again, in search of further details of that 22-year-old’s story, but I can find nothing that explains how such people will benefit. The only reference to benefits for investors was this rather disappointing revelation:
“This measure could improve returns on investments (including pensions) but would otherwise have no impacts on individuals or households.”
I do not yet see how the measure can benefit the people we are trying to represent.
I am sure that we would all like to hear the next chapter in the 22-year-old’s life story, and if the Minister has any more information to illustrate the fact that he is just the kind of person who stands to benefit from this measure, I am genuinely willing to hear it. However, in the absence of any such information, I shall return to the subject of amendment 67.
Our amendment invites the Government to lay out clearly and transparently exactly who will benefit from this policy and by how much. In Committee my hon. Friends expressed on a number of occasions the view that this is just another tax break for the Government’s friends in the City. While it does look like that, we are open to giving the Government the chance to prove otherwise. That is why our amendment asks the Treasury to publish the costs to the Exchequer in order to ensure that a list of beneficiaries and a distributional analysis for the abolition of stamp duty reserve tax are put into the public domain. That way we will be able to see all the facts as to who the Government are really concerned about.
Of course, if the Government do not agree to our amendment, we will be forced to conclude that this is just another tax cut for the wealthy, just as we suspected all along. We would also have to conclude, in the absence of any information to the contrary, that any claims of jobs created in regional economies are about as robust as the Prime Minister’s stance on Europe has been, and we would have to look a lot harder to try and find something in this which would create jobs, as seems to have been suggested on previous occasions, because I cannot for the life of me see how that stacks up. If we really want to tackle some of the regional imbalances, let us look at some of the announcements that have been made today, in terms of the reports put forward by the Opposition, about how we can create more wealth and look to ensure that power and resources are devolved to some of our cities and we tackle the issues around infrastructure in the regions.
In the light of the response when we tabled this amendment in Committee, I have to say that I am not at all confident that the Government are going to agree to provide us with the transparency we so urgently need. Again, if we look back to what was said in Committee, we find that the Government were not particularly transparent in terms of the information we were given, because, along with the story of the 22-year-old, speakers on the Government side were keen to stress that, because it is fund investors as opposed to fund managers who will benefit from the removal of SDRT, it would greatly boost investment. Again we have to question whether any increased investment would directly benefit those investment fund managers. Hon. Members were also very helpful in trying to enumerate how many people are currently employed by the industry, but try as they might, they failed, as did the tax information and impact note, to detail that important point about how many jobs would be created by the abolition of SDRT.
We also heard that the tax as it currently operates is
“an uncompetitive charge that puts UK-domiciled funds at a disadvantage to funds domiciled elsewhere”.––[Official Report, Finance Public Bill Committee, 10 June 2014; c. 412.]
That does not square with the idea that the UK investment management industry is doing so well that it is the second largest in the world, beaten only by the US.
I want to draw to a conclusion soon because I put quite a number of questions to the Minister in Committee and it would be useful for us to give him some time to respond to them, as he was not necessarily able to do so in Committee. It is important that we give him the chance again today, therefore. Unsurprisingly perhaps, the Minister is continuing to steadfastly—albeit politely—refuse to countenance our amendment for two reasons. First, he seems to be suggesting that the information requested has already been covered by the tax information and impact note, which, as I hope I have outlined, it does not seem to me to do in any clear and transparent way. The other argument that came up in Committee is that it would be difficult and it would perhaps take longer than six months to do. I am sure—and I am sure the Minister will understand this—that should he wish it to be so, he would be able to utilise all the capacity of the Government to overcome any difficulties, and indeed to ensure more information and a report were brought forward, and I am sure he would also be able to use his good offices to have his Government provide us with considerably more information than is currently contained in the tax information and impact note. It would also be helpful if the Minister could give us more information in his winding-up speech as to why he thinks it would not be possible to do this within a six-month deadline, as we have asked in our amendment.
In conclusion, this is all about priorities. The Government’s measures will reduce Exchequer revenues by more than £800 million over the course of the next five years if this particular measure goes ahead. That funding could be used in a variety of ways, and the Government have to be held responsible for the choices they make. Our amendment simply asks them to undertake that assessment and put the information in the public domain, so that we can see who benefits from this initiative and how it would benefit the wider public. The Government have not made that case; they have not shown how the measure would have an impact on our constituents—for the most part they seem to suggest it would not have any impact on them—and they have not answered the questions put previously about job creation and the impact on the regional economies.
Let me therefore remind the Minister of some of the questions we posed in Committee—I am sure other Members will wish to contribute, but he will also want to answer these in his summing up. The Investment Management Association is saying that the industry is doing very well, so why are the Government handing this tax break to the industry? What evidence can the Minister provide to us, even at this late stage, to suggest that the measure will have a positive impact on the UK economy and, in particular, the jobs market? Unless my memory fails me, he has not so far been able to give me a concrete number on the jobs he expects to be created or any more information about the regional benefits that have been referred to. Can he do that now? It would be helpful if he could do that and if he could set out all that information today. In those circumstances, perhaps I would consider whether our amendment was necessary. I suspect that he will not be able to give that information and will not be able to provide the clarity and transparency we seek, so I strongly suspect that when the time comes, I will seek to press my amendment to a vote.
Mr Gauke
It is a pleasure to respond to this short debate. The hon. Lady has an admirable ability to make unreasonable requests in a very reasonable way, and it falls to me once again to decline her offer, as Treasury Ministers have done in the past when a review or report is sought from them during a Finance Bill debate.
Let me quickly try to address some of the points raised, the first of which relates to the impact on the industry, the competitiveness argument and what we can do to assess that. It is worth pointing out that this measure came into effect only on 30 March, and it will take longer than six months for evidence of how the benefits of the change are accruing to investors to become available. So the report requested in amendment 67 will not adequately be able to do justice to that question.
Another area we have debated on a number of occasions is who benefits from this measure, and I will return to our little engagement on hedge funds. It is worth pointing out that the National Association of Pension Funds, the Association of British Insurers and the Investment Management Association stated their disagreement with the Labour party’s position and its policy proposal last year to reintroduce the schedule 19 charge. They say it would
“impose a £145 million annual cost on the ordinary savers, investors and pensioners, who are the beneficiaries of its abolition.”
That would weaken the UK’s competitiveness as a place for funds to be domiciled. If we are competitive in this sector, we will have more growth and more jobs. Let us be clear that this is not about jobs in the City of London—not that there is anything wrong with jobs in the City of London. The fund management industry directly employs 30,000 people throughout the United Kingdom, and about a half of those jobs are linked to fund domiciles. The jobs are located in many, if not all, the regions and nations of the United Kingdom.
Cathy Jamieson
Of course I recognise the value and the range of those jobs. Will the Minister tell us exactly what assessment the Government have done on the risk of reintroducing the measure, or indeed on the risk associated with producing a report? Surely he will want to investigate fully the number of jobs that he seems to think might be lost if our measure went ahead.
Mr Gauke
The hon. Lady puts her finger on an important word, which is “risk”. Yes, a number of jobs are involved. Some 30,000 people are employed in this industry in the UK. About 10,000 jobs are located in regions and nations such as Scotland, the north-west of England and the west midlands. If we have an uncompetitive tax system in the UK, that sector will suffer. There will be a threat to those jobs. We want to see an expanding and thriving sector, but there is a lot of competition from other jurisdictions in which funds can be domiciled. If we do not compete in the sector, we run the risk of losing those jobs.
There is not only the issue of the industry itself and the jobs that can be encouraged and protected in this country if we have a competitive tax regime, but the underlying point that it is the investors who indirectly bear the burden of this tax. That means that contributors to pension schemes—people in auto-enrolment schemes—will receive less in their pension if this tax remains in place. That is something that we should all seek to address. If we want policies that will be good for jobs and good for savers, then abolishing schedule 19 is a good policy. But what do we get from Labour? We get it embarking on a process to reinstate the policy because it misunderstands it. It thought that it was something to do with hedge funds. After it was explained to Labour Members—I have to say that it has been explained to them time and again—they refused to abandon it. I do not know whether it is still their policy to reverse this, or whether they are calling for a report. As I understand it, it is still the policy of the Opposition to reintroduce this tax.
Simon Kirby
Does the Minister agree that it seems incredibly naive to give away these jobs and reduce these pensions for nothing? Surely the Opposition should better understand the proposed legislation.
Mr Gauke
It is striking that time and again senior figures in the Labour party went around describing this as a tax cut for hedge funds. It is to the credit of the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun that she refused to repeat that accusation. Although she did not quite go as far as she might have done towards putting the record straight, at least she did not repeat the accusation despite being given multiple opportunities to do so. I do worry about the understanding of some issues within the Labour party. Just today, we have seen the example of the confusion about how many jobs have been created inside and outside London. I understand that the Leader of the Opposition is standing by his position this morning, although he did not quote that in his speech—but there we go. I am afraid that this is an example of somewhat shoddy thinking from the Opposition.
Ian Swales
On the same theme, did the Minister share my concern about the number of speeches made in Committee by Opposition Members that appeared to suggest that the benefits of the policy would accrue to the managers of the funds rather than the funds themselves?
Mr Gauke
Yes, I did. There was a complete absence of any understanding of tax incidence and of who ultimately bears a tax, but that, I am afraid, is all too typical.
The removal of schedule 19 is a welcome measure that will ensure that we have a competitive investment funds management set-up in the UK. It will help savers and those investing in their pensions and remove a distortive and uncompetitive tax. It is a great pity, although not a great surprise, that this further measure to improve our competitiveness and to help savers is opposed by the Opposition, and I certainly urge my colleagues to vote against amendment 67, assuming that it is pressed to a vote.
Question put and agreed to.
New clause 7 accordingly read a Second time, and added to the Bill.
Clause 107
Abolition of SDRT on certain dealings in collective investment schemes
Amendment proposed: 67, page 90, line 33, at end insert—
‘(5A) The Chancellor of the Exchequer shall, within six months of this Act receiving Royal Assent, publish and lay before the House of Commons a report setting out the impact of changes made to Schedule 19 of the Finance Act 1999 by this section.
(5B) The report referred to in subsection (5A) must in particular consider—
(a) the impact on tax revenues;
(b) the expected beneficiaries; and
(c) a distributional analysis of the beneficiaries.”—(Cathy Jamieson.)
Question put, That the amendment be made.
Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) (Lab)
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
New clause 11 relates to the Government’s employee shareholder scheme, more commonly known as “shares for rights”. It seeks to probe the Government on the scheme’s performance to date and the costs to the Exchequer in the form of capital gains tax exemptions. We have debated the subject at some length, so I thought that it would be helpful to give some background to jog hon. Members’ memories before setting out the reasons why the Opposition tabled the new clause.
The concept of employee shareholders was introduced under section 31 of the Growth and Infrastructure Act 2013, which was part of the Chancellor’s desperate attempt to kick-start growth after three years of a flatlining economy and rising unemployment, particularly youth unemployment. To get more businesses hiring, he created a status of employee known as employee shareholders. They are expected to give up several fundamental employment rights in return for tax advantaged shares in the employer’s company or parent company, issued under an employee shareholder agreement. Those shares would be tax advantageous to employees because up to £50,000 of the shares would be exempt from capital gains tax on disposal.
In exchange for those tax advantageous shares, employees would be expected to waive some of their fundamental employment rights, including the right not to be unfairly dismissed, the right to a redundancy payment, the right to request leave for study or training and the right to request flexible working, and they will have to give 16 weeks’ notice, rather than the usual eight weeks, before returning to work.
Of course, the right to request flexible working and the ability to give just eight weeks’ notice after maternity or adoption leave have been assessed by the Government themselves, in their tax information and impact note, to affect women disproportionately. They acknowledged that when they legislated for this last year. These reduced rights for female employees, in particular, are in addition to the Government’s real-terms cuts to statutory maternity pay—the mummy tax—the scrapping of the health in pregnancy grant and the significant restrictions on the Sure Start maternity grant. That begs the question that many of us are asking ourselves: just what do this Government have against women and families?
The shares for rights scheme has been widely criticised from across the political spectrum—particularly by the business world because of its impact on employment rights and grave concerns about the opportunities that it presents for tax avoidance.
Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab)
Does my hon. Friend agree that rights are rights—not something to be bought and sold? If we give people rights, they should not be able to be sold to whoever.
Catherine McKinnell
My hon. Friend hits on a key point. Rights are rights and should not be up for sale. I will go into some of the concerns expressed about the policy. The TUC, for example, has said:
“We deplore any attack on maternity provision or protection against unfair dismissal, but these complex proposals do not look as if they will have very much impact, as few small businesses will want to tie themselves up in the tangle of red tape necessary to trigger these exemptions.”
Not only do the proposals send out completely the wrong signals about employment rights—I have focused on women’s employment rights, but those rights are affected across the board—but they have been so badly thought through that the general feeling is that they will not have much impact, as most people would not want to enter into the arrangements.
Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op)
My hon. Friend is making incredibly important points. She mentioned businesses. Does she share my concern that the scheme has not had the support from businesses that we might have expected, for some of the practical reasons that she has raised?
Catherine McKinnell
I agree with my hon. Friend’s concern. The lack of transparency from the Government about the interest in the scheme is why we tabled the new clause. It has been difficult to get information about the scheme’s potential take-up—how many businesses have expressed an interest? It has taken a freedom of information request to get even the most basic information, which I will outline a little later.
I should like to quote Justin King, chief executive of Sainsbury’s. What he says relates poignantly to the interventions made by my hon. Friends the Members for Alyn and Deeside (Mark Tami) and for Feltham and Heston (Seema Malhotra):
“This is not something for our business. The population at large don’t trust business. What do you think the population at large will think of businesses that want to trade employment rights for money?”
I could not have expressed it better myself.
Mike Kane (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab)
Does my hon. Friend agree that the measure lacks basic human dignity, which should be at the forefront of all public policy legislation? Does she agree with Lord O’Donnell, the former head of the civil service, who said that it was a form of modern slavery?
Catherine McKinnell
The proposition risks ringing of that. It lacks an ethical approach, given that it trades people’s rights for £2,000 of shares. More than that, it flies in the face of what we know to be true about productivity and engagement. We know that engaging a work force and building their trust makes businesses more successful. Sarah Jackson, chief executive of Working Families, says:
“It also flies in the face of everything we know about productivity and employee engagement. Treat your employees well, give them the flexibility they need, and you will be rewarded by highly motivated and high performing employees.”
The proposal we are discussing goes in completely the opposite direction, undermining the rights of employees and buying them off with shares that could carry a lot of risk for them. It is no wonder that so few businesses have taken up the offer.
Stewart Hosie
That is the key point, is it not? Share schemes and share option schemes are fantastic incentives in their own right. That is what should be promoted, not the link with the withdrawal of rights, which is absurd and preposterous.
Catherine McKinnell
I agree with the hon. Gentleman. He sums up the point at stake. The scheme seems to confuse and conflate two different issues: employee ownership of shares in a company—something we fully support—and employment rights. There seems to be a belief that one can be traded for the other and that that will create an entrepreneurial work force, when in fact it undermines productivity and performance and is so unattractive that few businesses have taken up the offer, we believe. But that is the reason for the new clause: we want to get to the truth of exactly how many businesses are interested in taking up the scheme.
Seema Malhotra
To build on that important exchange, Labour supports employee ownership, but coupling it with slashing employment rights is not only contradictory but counter-productive. Do we not need a way in which we can support employee ownership alongside employment rights? That is how we will get a motivated and engaged work force. Partnership between management and staff is the right way to get the focus on high productivity and long-term incentives.
Catherine McKinnell
My hon. Friend speaks passionately and I absolutely agree. Employee ownership is something we should be talking about and finding ways to support. That is why it is so disappointing that the Government wasted the opportunity to boost the cause of employee ownership and shareholding, and have undermined it by framing the argument so unfairly. It smacks of the Adrian Beecroft fire-at-will proposals and does not ring true for most businesses, which do not want to conduct their affairs in that way. They want an equal partnership with their employees to build the business together, knowing that in most circumstances their work force are their key asset. Undermining and cutting employment rights will potentially undermine the trust in a business between employers and employees. That is not the way to build a successful, strong business for the future.
The policy was the centrepiece of the Chancellor’s speech to the 2012 Conservative party conference. He suggested at the time that his grand idea would herald a new three-way deal between employer, employee and the Government, in which employees give up their employment rights, the company gives shares and the Government grant tax exemptions on those shares. In his words, it is swapping “old rights”—as if they are no longer required—
“with new rights of ownership.”
I want to be absolutely clear that we do not oppose the concept of employee ownership. We are aware of its benefits for both employees and employers alike, but we strongly object to its being linked to the removal of employment rights, which serves to undermine the whole concept. Ministers need to make it easier to hire people, not to fire them, but the Chancellor is kidding absolutely nobody by trying to claim that the scheme does anything other than encourage that.
The Chancellor talks about new types of ownership rights, but the Employee Owner Association, which describes itself as the voice of co-owned business, has pointed out that the scheme serves only to discredit and undermine genuine employee ownership schemes—schemes that we fully support. The chief executive of the Employee Ownership Association has said:
“There is absolutely no need to dilute the rights of workers in order to grow employee ownership and no data to suggest that doing so would significantly boost employee ownership.
Indeed all of the evidence is that employee ownership in the UK is growing and the businesses concerned thriving, because they enhance not dilute the working conditions and entitlements of the workforce.”
We need only look at the comments of our colleagues in the other place, including a number of former Tory Cabinet Ministers, before they voted down these measures to see that that view is shared by pretty much everyone outside the Government. Lord O’Donnell said:
“If an employer is offering this, they are probably the kind of employer that you do not want to go near. If an employee accepts it, it is probably because they do not really understand what they are doing. On those grounds, it is bad.”
He went on to ask a question:
“we know that in the old days the price of slavery was 20 or 30 pieces of silver. Is it now £2,000?” —[Official Report, House of Lords, 20 March 2013; Vol. 744, c. 617.]
I could not discuss shares for rights without reminding right hon. and hon. Members of the view of the former Conservative Cabinet Minister, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean. He described the scheme as having
“all the trappings of something that was thought up by someone in the bath”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 20 March 2013; Vol. 744, c. 614.]
Perhaps the Minister will respond to those comments today.
In new clause 11, the Opposition are trying to probe the Government on the take-up that the scheme has achieved so far. A cursory search for “shares for rights” on an internet search engine suggests that things have not been a roaring success. It turns up the following headlines. The FT.com website states, “Chancellor’s ‘shares for rights’ plan flops”. The Guardian says, “George Osborne’s shares-for-rights scheme doesn’t add up”. The Telegraph says, “No take-up on ‘rights for shares’”, as well as, “George Osborne’s flagship rights for shares scheme risks falling flat”. The specialist human resources website, XpertHR, sums it up well with, “Shares for rights: 1.7% of UK employers plan to use employee shareholder contracts, XpertHR research finds”. Even the Deputy Prime Minister has contributed to the headlines, with FT.com reporting in January that “Nick Clegg urges end of ‘shares for rights’”.
I am quoting headlines from internet searches because it is incredibly difficult to get any information out of the Government on the take-up and impact of the policy. The purpose of the new clause is to get to the truth. [Interruption.] I see that the hon. Member for Rochford and Southend East (James Duddridge) is frantically searching on his hand-held device. Perhaps he has found some alternative headlines that he would like to share with the House. Would he like to intervene?
James Duddridge
I assure the hon. Lady that I do not do anything frantically. I have been searching. I think that it was on Google, but I am not very good at using this little hand-held box. HR magazine says, “Osborne’s shares for rights scheme could help SMEs”. I do not know whether she needs to update her search engine or whether she is using an internal Labour party search engine that filters out good news stories.
Catherine McKinnell
I would be interested to hear more details of that story once the hon. Gentleman has had time to read the entry on his search engine. I am sure that it will help him to provide a robust response to my comments when he speaks in this debate. I look forward to hearing the positive story that he has to tell about the shares for rights scheme. I think that he might be a lone voice in this debate, but good luck to him.
Seema Malhotra
My hon. Friend has quoted some significant voices in this debate and I want to add one more quotation. Justin King, the chief executive of Sainsbury’s, said:
“This is not something for our business… The population at large don’t trust business. What do you think the population at large will think of businesses that want to trade employment rights for money?”
Does she agree that businesses are concerned that the way in which this scheme is being used is not helpful to them? They want to build long-term relationships with their employees, invest in them and find ways to build employee engagement in the profits of the company. Does she also share my concern that this is another way in which the Government are trying to reduce employment rights?
Catherine McKinnell
My hon. Friend raises an important point, and that concern has been expressed by a range of voices in response to the proposals—when I say voices, I mean businesses, but also those who represent employees, employee ownership and recruitment agencies. They are all concerned about the proposals ultimately creating a two-tier work force: those who have rights and those who do not.
The Opposition would like to see many problems addressed in relation to some of the insecure working practices that many workers up and down the country are subject to. We know the impact that such working practices have, particularly on those with families and their ability to plan for child care and to know whether they can afford to pay the rent at the end of the week.
People come to my constituency surgery in awful confusion about whether they need to claim housing benefit from one week to the next, because one week they get enough hours to pay the rent, and the next week they do not. That creates a two-tier work force of those who know how much they will be paid and what hours they will work, and those who are left with insecure zero-hour contracts. That potentially creates yet another tier of worker—one who does not have redundancy rights, cannot request flexible working, does not have the right to take time off to train, and one who, if they take maternity leave, has to give four months’ notice instead of two as to when they might return. There is a worrying trend of eroding employment rights that does no good for the workers involved or for businesses, and that strong message has come from businesses in response to the proposals.
Let me return to the criticisms of this policy made by the Deputy Prime Minister in the Financial Times report that I mentioned. That report was telling because it contained the only official piece of information in the public domain about the take-up of the scheme. A freedom of information request from the FT revealed that the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills had received just 19 inquiries about the scheme in the six months to the end of December. That followed a report in The Daily Telegraph last November which found that of 500 businesses surveyed, a mere 0.1%—virtually none—said they were planning to introduce the scheme. The survey also showed that 72% of businesses believed that encouraging employees to relinquish rights would make recruitment far more difficult, in complete contrast to the Chancellor’s claims.
I find that response from the business community incredibly heartening because it shows that businesses in Britain know what makes for a good, strong work force, and for trust between employer and employee. It also shows, however, how completely out of touch the Government are if they think by offering this scheme, they are giving business what it needs. The results of the survey correlate closely with the Department’s own consultation responses, which found that the policy had the full support of fewer than five of the 209 businesses asked to respond. It conceded that only a “very small number” of respondents welcomed the scheme or were interested in taking it up.
To return to the FT report, it is perhaps no wonder that Treasury officials are not particularly optimistic about the scheme’s take-up. Responding to the FT’s FOI figures, an unnamed official admitted:
“This was never going to fly off the shelf.”
Of course it was not—it is divisive, ill thought through, and has proved unpopular among former Tory Cabinet members, not to mention the overwhelming majority of the business community. I gather, however, that those FT figures are the latest information available for the scheme. Will the Minister comment on why that is the case, and explain why Ministers are so reluctant—for whatever reason—to update Members of the House on the scheme’s progress? That is why we have tabled new clause 11. We think that the House deserves to have available the information associated with this scheme.
Seema Malhotra
One could conceive that this policy may have had a well-intentioned goal, but does my hon. Friend agree that, given the feedback on the consultations, the low take-up and now the claims that it could lead to a tax loophole and large amounts of tax avoidance, it could end up being a real own goal for the Government? If the policy is not reversed, it needs to be under active review at the very least—hence the importance of new clause 11.
Catherine McKinnell
I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention as it takes me neatly to my next point, which is the issue of tax avoidance. Several people share our concern that the employee rights scheme is potentially vulnerable to significant abuse. I raised that concern during consideration of last year’s Finance Bill, when we tabled an amendment calling on the Government to review the impact of this scheme on tax avoidance activity. That helpful amendment was not accepted by the Government, but I hope that this year—knowing that the Government profess to be keen to clamp down on all forms of tax avoidance—they will accept the need to have the right information available to prove that this policy will not create just another massive loophole.
Buried in the annexes to the OBR’s policy costing document from December 2012 was an admission that the cost of the scheme could rise to £1 billion by 2018—depending on take-up, obviously, and we are looking forward to the figures for that. A quarter of that cost was specifically attributed to tax avoidance—or tax planning, as it is termed in the report. In certifying the figures, the OBR stated that
“there are a number of uncertainties in this costing. The static cost is uncertain in part because of a lack of information about the current Capital Gains Tax arising from gains on shares through their employer. The behavioural element of the costing is also uncertain for two reasons. First, it is difficult to estimate how quickly the relief will be taken up; this could make a significant difference as the cost is expected to rise towards £1 billion beyond the end of the forecast horizon. Second, it is hard to predict how quickly the increased scope for tax planning will be exploited; again this could be quantitatively significant as a quarter of the costing already arises from tax planning.”
Perhaps the director of the Institute for Fiscal Studies, Paul Johnson, characterised the issue best when he wrote, in a Financial Times article aptly entitled, “Shares for rights will foster tax avoidance”:
“There may be a case for more flexible approaches to employment legislation. But as a tax policy, ‘shares for rights’ always looks pretty questionable. At a time of increasing scrutiny of tax avoidance schemes, it has all the hallmarks of another avoidance opportunity. So, just as concern over tax avoidance is at its highest in living memory, just as government ministers are falling over themselves to condemn such behaviour, the same government is trumpeting a new tax policy that looks like it will foster a whole new avoidance industry. Its own fiscal watchdog seems to suggest that the policy could cost a staggering £1bn a year, and that a large portion of that could arise from ‘tax planning’.”
It is bad enough that the policy is unnecessary, divisive, damaging and counter-productive. Those of us on the Opposition Benches pretty much all agree on that, and I have not heard any voices from the Government Benches argue the opposite. I look forward to the Minister’s contribution, once he has managed to find that article that is, apparently, supportive of the scheme. The fact that the scheme could cost the Exchequer up to £1 billion, and that one quarter of that cost could arise from tax avoidance, simply beggars belief. The Minister has previously stated that there are sufficient anti-avoidance provisions to mitigate such activities, but what are the Government actually doing to monitor capital gains receipts and reliefs, and ensure we have evidence of avoidance?
Recent reports from the National Audit Office and the Public Accounts Committee have been highly critical of the Government’s continued creation of complexities and loopholes that open the door to more tax avoidance. If Ministers fail to monitor such avoidance activity properly, I fear that this will be just one more tax relief to add to the 948 on the NAO’s list of unmonitored tax expenditures, to use the Treasury’s own phraseology. Considering that the scheme came into being last September, can the Minister produce any more up-to-date estimates, based on Treasury data, to build on the OBR’s original forecast? If he is not able to do that today, hon. Members will want to vote for new clause 11 to ensure that that information is available to the House, that monitoring is taking place and that we can all see the potential implications of the Government proposal.
The Chancellor’s flagship shares for rights scheme has been rejected by businesses. It may have opened up a tax loophole that, according to the OBR, will cost the Exchequer £1 billion. For what gain? That is what people are asking. That is what the Government need to demonstrate in their response today, or certainly in the report that we are calling for. We have said that we will reverse the shares for rights scheme and use the money to contribute to the repeal of the bedroom tax. The bedroom tax is a cost-inefficient policy and we would like to see it reversed. We want the money saved from the damaging shares for rights scheme to be used to ensure that that can be achieved without any extra borrowing. We have urged the Government to abandon their ill-thought-through shares for rights policy, which the director of the IFS aptly described as having all the hallmarks of another tax avoidance opportunity, never mind the former Conservative employment Minister, Lord Forsyth, accusing it of having the trappings of something thought up in the bath. So far, Ministers have failed to listen; or at least, they may be listening but they are not hearing.
We have tabled new clause 11 to try to provide much-needed clarity. Officials and Ministers dismiss out of hand as unrepresentative take-up figures disclosed in FOI requests. OBR forecasts are dismissed as not taking account of all the facts. Indeed, the Government’s own measures are dismissed as being unreliable or uncertain. Why will Ministers not step up to the mark and disclose exactly how many employees have signed up to employee shareholder contracts and have been awarded the £2,000 in return for shares? Why will Ministers not disclose the value of shares that have been issued under the shares for rights scheme to date? Instead of labelling Opposition amendments as unnecessary and as an administrative burden, which I anticipate the Minister will, why will the Minister not instead today tell us exactly how much the scheme is costing the Exchequer as a result of the capital gains tax exemptions? How much of that cost is as a result of tax planning arrangements; people capitalising on a poorly thought through policy that could quite easily act as a tax avoidance mechanism, rather than the great stimulus to entrepreneurship and employment that the Government claimed it would achieve?
It is bad enough that this divisive policy totally undermines the concept of employee ownership and workplace rights, not to mention the potential millions lost in tax avoidance activity; but worst of all, Ministers are plainly refusing to disclose the information that would enable Members properly to assess and scrutinise what the scheme has done to achieve the Chancellor’s clearly stated aim of helping businesses to recruit more people.
For all those reasons and given the concerns set out by my hon. Friends, I urge hon. Members to support our new clause 11, so that we can get the facts straight on shares for rights.
Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op)
Before the soothsayers and the sketch writers say again that Labour is anti-something or other, I want to make something quite clear. [Interruption.] The sketch writer is in the Gallery, although perhaps I am being a little arrogant to think that anyone would want to report on one of my speeches. Before the press releases go out from Tory central office saying that Labour is anti-share save schemes all of a sudden, I want to make it clear that this party has always been in favour of shares to reward people for the work they do.
The best and most successful companies offer shares to their most successful employees. Indeed, I would like to draw the Minister’s attention to how successful a share save scheme can be by using the example—a Welsh example—of Admiral Insurance. In March 2013, it recorded a 15% increase in profits. In all, 6,500 members of staff at the Cardiff-based Admiral Group will get £3,000 in an employee share save scheme. Alastair Lyons, the chair, said at the time:
“I want to thank everyone who has helped us to create such a robust business”
in the past 20 years. People are more productive, happier and more contented when they are valued and, above all, when they feel valued. That is why the Admiral Group of companies are among the top 100 best places in the UK to work, which I am sure did not come about by trading in employee rights for shares.
Sometimes it seems that this Government are so intent on presenting some sort of radical, compassionate conservatism that they fumble around for an idea, before coming back to ideas that have failed time and again. Very often, it seems that this Government, like previous Tory-led Administrations, are fearful of employment rights, and I am not the only one saying that. According to even the independent Office for Budget Responsibility—if I may digress, Madam Deputy Speaker, the Government are resisting requiring that very body to audit all parties’ manifestos at the next general election—the flagship shares for rights scheme has been rejected by businesses, opened up a tax loophole and will lead to £1 billion being lost by the Exchequer. In the face of such criticism, it seems eminently sensible to support our amendment for it would compel the Treasury to report on the take-up of shares for rights, collect data on the scheme and publish further reports on shares for rights every year.
James Duddridge
Is there not a contradiction between the argument that the scheme will lose billions and saying that it is being taken up by nobody?
Chris Evans
I have the utmost respect for the hon. Gentleman, but he should allow me to develop the argument a bit further. As he knows very well, this is a Finance Bill, and the Opposition cannot move any amendments that relate to spending. A report is the only thing we can propose, and it would be eminently sensible. If we had the data, we would know what the uptake was. I would argue that the Government have to abandon their ill thought out “shares for rights” policy, which even the director of the Institute for Fiscal Studies described as having
“all the hallmarks of another avoidance opportunity”.
My hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North (Catherine McKinnell) alluded to the Conservative employment Minister Lord Forsyth who described it as having
“the trappings of something that was thought up in the bath”—
by the Government on their own, I hope, although we don’t know with Tory sleaze! It is bad enough that this divisive policy undermines the concept of employee ownership and workers’ rights, but it could also cost the Exchequer up to £1 billion, a quarter of that arising from tax planning activity—the very tax planning activity that the Chancellor said he had clamped down on since he took office.
Fundamentally, the problem that employees have faced over the last 40 years with the end of heavy industry—it is a problem that comes with Governments of all stripes—is that most feel insecure in their jobs anyway. People do not have a job for life any more; they move around seven or eight types of jobs, but slashing employment rights at work is wrong in principle. It will not help create jobs and growth. It seems to me that this is a policy made up on the fly.
If anybody wants to know how ill-conceived this policy is, they need only look at some statistics. The scheme has not won the support of the business community. A 33-week consultation on the scheme—two thirds of the year, or nine months—had more than 200 responses. Of those, only five businesses said they would be interested in taking up the scheme.
I sometimes think I admire the Chancellor. He is an economist—of the highest rank, I have no doubt—but I wish he were here to explain how he came up with the line:
“Owners, workers and the taxman are all in it together”.
Where was the sense in that? It is just not fully worked out. Has he not asked the employer? If an employer has a bad employee, why would he want to give them shares and make them owners of the company? That does not make sense to me. The employee would then have voting rights over what the employer wanted to do. Why would an employee want shares in a company that had just dismissed him? It should be easier to hire than fire.
We need tax breaks for small businesses so that they can hire extra employees rather than throw away their employment rights. As a proud Labour and Co-op MP, I support employee ownership, but coupling it with slashing employment rights is contradictory and counter-productive. As the Employee Ownership Association has pointed out, boosting employee ownership
“does not require a dilution of rights”.
Even a city on the hill, the United States of America, where employee rights are certainly not in fashion, has criticised the scheme. The proposal reflects the “fire at will” recommendations of the controversial Beecroft report, authored by the Prime Minister’s employment tsar and Tory donor, Adrian Beecroft. Mr Beecroft admitted to MPs that his proposals were based not on any statistical or empirical evidence but on a “valid sample of people”. Who has he spoken to? No doubt the same Tories who have problems with the employment rights of anybody anywhere.
The scheme could also present considerable costs to business and create new administrative burdens. I believe that people are already being deterred from taking up the scheme. Alan Higham told The Guardian:
“I worry it would create suspicion among employees that I might sack them unfairly. Employees wouldn’t easily be able to see the value in the shares today…If I employ 10 staff and decided to give them £2,000 each of shares, then I would need to spend £10,000 in getting a professional valuation done. Under current tax rules I would also have paid them £2,000 each to change their contract, on which PAYE and national insurance would be charged. As this is a gift I would also have to pay tax on this. On this basis it could cost me £10,000 and a further £9,400 to give away £20,000 of shares. There will probably also be some sort of ongoing admin and HMRC compliance to do, which will also cost.”
Fundamental questions must be asked about this entire scheme. If the company goes bankrupt—if the employer is so bad that he runs his company into the ground—does the employee he has just sacked become responsible for any of the company’s losses? If the employee has shares in the company, of course he will.
Ministers are seeking to introduce this scheme without proper consultation and discussion. They have proceeded in a shambolic and chaotic way. That is reflected by the fact that the Second Reading of the Bill that became the Growth and Infrastructure Act 2013 took place before the consultation had closed.
Given that £10,600 of capital gains tax is already exempt, exemption from CGT in the scheme is only likely to benefit employee shareholders in a small minority of companies which achieve unusually high growth. There is also concern about the full cost of the scheme. Ministers originally claimed that it would be £100 in 2017-18, but according to the Office for Budget Responsibility’s contribution to the Treasury’s policy costing document, which was released along with the 2012 autumn statement 2012,
“the cost is expected to rise towards £1 billion”,
and the OBR concluded that
“uncertainties are around assumptions on take up rates, the average value of shares that are entered into the scheme, the extent of tax planning and the timing of disposals.”
What really concerns me is that a person could throw away all his employment rights in return for shares that could already be tumbling. There is no win-win situation for such people.
According to the Office for Budget Responsibility, a quarter of that £1 billion additional cost—£250 million—is expected to arise from tax avoidance as a result of the scheme. A Government who have been obsessive about tax avoidance seem to be creating another vehicle for people to avoid taxation. Following the publication of the Government’s response to the consultation scheme, a Government source was quoted as saying:
“The proposals are on life support.”
However, Ministers went ahead with them. I wonder whether this Minister knows who that person was, and whether he can enlighten us.
It seems to me that the scheme is unworkable. When “shares for rights” were discussed during the Committee stage of the Growth and Infrastructure Bill, the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, the right hon. Member for Sevenoaks (Michael Fallon), admitted that employees taking part in the scheme could be liable to pay income tax and national insurance on any shares received from employers over and above £2,000. That would impose a significant up-front cost on employees.
It is feared that there are other ways in which the scheme could have an adverse impact on employees. For example, will jobs be advertised as available only with employee shareholder status? In practice, will employers be able to impose the scheme on individual employees or groups of employees? What safeguards will there be to ensure that the scheme is voluntary for existing employees, as Ministers claim that it will be?
On behalf of the members of the Employee Ownership Association, chief executive lain Hasdell sent an open letter to the Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, the hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson), who is responsible for employment relations, consumer and postal affairs, expressing concern about recent developments in the Government’s approach to growing the number of employee owners in the economy. He said:
“'Our Members have three main concerns on this matter.
Firstly, proposed legislation has appeared in a Bill before the Government consultation on the possibility of deploying this model of employee ownership has finished. Indeed it has only just started.
Secondly, our Members are very aware that there is no need to reduce the rights of workers in order to grow employee ownership and no data to suggest that doing so would significantly boost the number of employee owners. Indeed all of the evidence is that employee ownership in the UK is growing and the businesses concerned thriving, because they enhance not dilute the working conditions and entitlements of employee owners.”
In that context, I remind the House of what I said about Admiral Insurance in Cardiff at the beginning of my speech. Iain Hasdell continued:
“Thirdly, the appearance of this measure in the Growth and Infrastructure Bill appears to our Members to be completely disconnected to the recommendations in the Nuttall Review. That Review contained a series of recommendations on how to grow employee ownership and none of those recommendations suggested the dilution of worker rights.”
I am not the only person who is saying these things, and that is why I believe that we should have a report. The criticism of this measure has been immense, from the business community and employment organisations to trade unions—some Members on the Government Benches will probably think I have sworn there. The Employee Ownership Association says:
“whilst growing employee ownership should be part of the UK’s Industrial Policy, such growth does not require a dilution of the rights and working conditions of employees.”
Brendan Barber, TUC general secretary, said:
“We deplore any attack on maternity provision or protection against unfair dismissal, but these complex proposals do not look as if they will have very much impact, as few small businesses will want to tie themselves up in the tangle of red tape necessary to trigger these exemptions.”
There, in a nutshell, is the problem: there is low take-up; it is very complicated; people are not interested. As my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North said, we see maternity provision, a hard-fought right that many people argued and fought for and in some cases gave their lives for, being given up for the whim of a few shares in a company that could be either taken over or finished in a couple of years.
Mike Emmett, employee relations adviser at the Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development, says:
“The UK has one of the least regulated labour markets in the world and there is little evidence to suggest that employment regulation is preventing small businesses from taking people on. In fact, according to the Government’s own research, unfair dismissal doesn’t even figure in the list of top ten regulations discouraging them from recruiting staff. Employees have little to gain by substituting their fundamental rights for uncertain financial gain and employers have little to gain by creating a two tier labour market.”
Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)
My hon. Friend is making a very eloquent and provocative speech. Does he agree with me that it is intrinsically wrong for someone to sell their rights, just as it would be intrinsically wrong of me to sell myself into slavery? Is this not going down that absurd and immoral path?
Chris Evans
I do not know how much my hon. Friend thinks he would get if he sold himself into slavery—[Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. Thankfully, that matter would be out of order to discuss. Therefore, any embarrassment that the hon. Member for Swansea West (Geraint Davies) might feel is spared.
Chris Evans
Thank you for that interjection, Mr Speaker, and I am sorry that I treated such a serious topic as slavery in a light-hearted manner.
I agree with my hon. Friend: these are hard-fought employment rights. I do not want to hark back to the past, but although the Conservatives like to say theirs is a progressive party, every piece of social legislation in this country, from votes for women to increased maternity and paternity rights to the minimum wage and even the state pension, has been brought about by Labour and by people having to fight for them. To me, it seems frivolous for those rights to be given away. As a former trade union official working in financial services, I do not believe that people were deterred from employing staff because of the rights they had. Maternity rights are accepted across the board. If someone goes on maternity leave, people believe they have that right, and it is shocking that the Government think this can be sold off for 30 pieces of silver.
John Cridland, director general of the CBI, said:
“I think this is a niche idea and not relevant to all businesses,”
again backing up my argument that this is policy made on the fly. It has not been thought out. It seems to me that the share schemes and share save schemes work very well without people having to trade their employment rights. Employers who have introduced a share save scheme or given shares to their employees do so as a reward for good business practices, not to buy off potentially bad employees.
There is a little thing that we should learn in this House: it is called trust. If an employer asks me to sell my rights, I will straight away be suspicious; I will always work hard, but I will not be industrious in the way I should, and I am going to ask myself questions such as, “Is there a question mark over my competence if he is willing to trade my hard-fought employment rights for shares in his company?”
Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD)
I have sympathy with some of the Labour party’s concerns on this issue, but having listened for an hour or so one thing occurs to me. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that no employee will be forced to do this—they will voluntarily choose to do so or not? That is important.
Chris Evans
The hon. Gentleman is taking a very liberal position, but I refer again to the evidence given during the Committee stage of the Bill that became the Growth and Infrastructure Act 2013, which introduced the measure. It was said there that employees who took up the scheme would have to pay income tax and national insurance on any share received from employers over and above £2,000. The scheme would impose significant up-front costs, so I do not know whether it would be so voluntary. I have criticised Adrian Beecroft about his anecdotal evidence, but I wonder what would really happen in the workplace. We know of so many tribunal cases where people have been harassed or been under severe strain from an employer and then gone on long-term sick leave. What is to prevent the employer from forcing them to sell those rights?
Catherine McKinnell
My hon. Friend raises an important point, but the intervention by the hon. Member for Eastbourne (Stephen Lloyd) does not take account of the fact that many employees are in a very vulnerable position with their employers. If they are approached by their employer to take this up and they turn it down, what happens? What situation are they left in? There are an awful lot of question marks over how the scheme works in practice and where the equality of arms is for the employees potentially affected by the scheme.
Chris Evans
My hon. Friend advances the argument eloquently. We debate these issues and talk about employment rights, but if someone is in a poor workplace, is struggling to pay the rent or the mortgage and the bills, and faces a severe threat that they might lose their job, they might be forced into doing this. In many non-unionised businesses there will be nobody to police this, so those people might be forced into it. She powerfully made the point about how women, in particular, are in that type of situation.
I should have made my next point before the hon. Member for Eastbourne (Stephen Lloyd) intervened on me, but I will do so now. Paul Callaghan, partner in the employment team at Taylor Wessing, has said:
“Osborne is potentially forcing all new employees to waive the main employment rights including unfair dismissal and redundancy rights in exchange for £2,000 of shares. This makes Adrian Beecroft’s fire at will proposals look moderate.
From April it may become the norm for job offers to require this waiver which will also involve the loss of flexible working rights and stricter maternity rights. This is likely to have a disproportionate effect on women.”
Henry Stewart, founder and chief executive of the training company Happy Ltd, has said:
“I welcome anything which makes it cheaper and simpler to give employees shares, but coupling it with taking away employment rights is ridiculous. If as an employer you have a problem with unfair dismissals, you need to improve management—that’s what the government should be giving incentives for. I don't think it's been thought through.”
In a nutshell that sums up what I think of this proposal. Bad employers who are afraid of unfair dismissal cases, reprisals, recrimination and grievances from employees should think about how they are managing their staff and look hard at their human resources department.
Corey Rosen, founder of the National Centre for Employee Ownership, one of the world’s leading groups promoting share ownership, has said:
“There is a lot of employee ownership in our country, but not one of these employees and not one of these plans asks employees to give up any employment rights to get any of the various tax benefits associated with employee ownership.”
That is a voice from the United States, not somewhere known for being particularly friendly to those in trade unions or on employment rights.
Simon Caulkin, writer on management and business, has said:
“In effect, Osborne's cobbled-together scheme is a back-door re-run of the agenda of…Beecroft”.
Rebecca Briam, partner at Gannons Solicitors, said:
“It is unlikely to get off the ground.”
With only five businesses out of 200 wanting to take up the scheme, I think she is right. She goes on to say:
“The proposals will be unpopular with employees because the chances of benefitting are so slim.”
She said that it was
“unpopular with employers, especially privately controlled companies, because of the risks imposed to the share structure. Far from saving on payroll expenses, the total costs for an employer may well increase.”
Manufacturers’ organisation EEF said:
“Our members have indicated they would not implement the new status.”
The Federation of Small Businesses said:
“The scheme is unlikely to be appropriate for many small businesses.”
The Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development said:
“There is very little evidence as to why this policy is needed or what impact it will have.”
Such views support the new clause that is before us.
Earlier, I talked about the vehicles that are created for the purpose of tax avoidance. Matthew Findley, partner at law firm Pinsent Masons, addressed that matter quite eloquently. He noted that the income tax positions of those receiving the shares is still unclear:
“There is nothing in what the Government has said so far that would stop senior executives or substantial shareholders from participating in the arrangement. This may mean that an opportunity still exists for such individuals, even if they may be viewed by some as the ‘wrong’ people politically to benefit.”
Paul Johnson from the Institute for Fiscal Studies talked about the potential for tax avoidance as the scheme
“prepares to put another billion pound lollipop on the table.”
He says:
“Just as Government Ministers are falling over themselves to condemn such behaviour, that same Government is trumpeting a new tax policy which looks like it will foster a whole new avoidance industry.”
An avoidance industry is something of which a Government who want to create jobs cannot be proud.
I support new clause 11. As there has been such a low take-up of the scheme—only five in 200 companies have said that they would consider it—a report needs to be produced. Numerous commentators from the business community have expressed the fear that a new tax avoidance scheme is being set up, which suggests that this is a pertinent and sensible new clause, and I urge the Government to accept it.
Richard Fuller
I am pleased to follow the hon. Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans), who spoke with great authority, drawing as he did on his experiences as a trade union official before he was a Member of Parliament. I will, if I may, draw on some of my own experiences of working with small businesses. In that regard, I draw Members’ attention to my entry in the Register of Members’ Interests.
I apologise to the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North (Catherine McKinnell) for missing the beginning of her comments. I thought that she spoke persuasively and eloquently about some of the issues and about the policy that the Government have introduced. She had me persuaded all the way, until she referred to the spare room subsidy as a tax. It is just not a tax, and it is such a shame when bad slogans happen to good people because all the persuasion power of their speeches is lost. The rest of her speech raised some important points.
We should put the new clause into context. The Government have an extraordinary long-term economic plan that is delivering improvements to the economic lives of my constituents in Bedford and Kempston. It impacts on their ability to find work and get into work. It also raises their average weekly earnings, which is a major concern for many people. It is good to see the plan starting to bear fruit.
Perhaps now is not a good time for an ordinary Tory Back-Bench Member to criticise the Government, but if my hon. Friend the Minister will forgive me, I will do so. We are looking here at a policy in search of a problem; we are not really looking at something that will have a dramatic impact on the well-being of our businesses or our employees. I am open to being persuaded by the Minister. He usually persuades me and I am sure that he will do so today, but perhaps I could go through some of my experiences from when I was in business relating to two parts of our debate.
On the one hand, we have employee and workers’ rights and, on the other, we have employee shareholdings. The approach seems to be to conflate those two issues into one policy and I am not sure whether that will ultimately prove to be wise. In my experience as an employer, although employees’ issues in employment sometimes concerned the extent of employee rights, red tape and regulation often led to far more concerns about the impact of government on the business. In addition, the problem was not necessarily the rights per se but the complexity of the regulations. For a small business, just understanding the regulations to comply with them causes problems. I am not sure that the problem was specifically the rights that were given to employees. Is the objective in this case to reduce the complexity of regulation for businesses through the use of the combination of employee shareholdings, or is there some other objective?
The hon. Member for Islwyn mentioned some of the issues when companies give shares to employees. For a large part of my life, I have worked with technology businesses and the provision of shares was a norm for business. It was a way in which many companies could afford to start, to grow and to prosper. In those circumstances, people were given shares not because of their employee rights but as an incentive either to reward effort or to encourage effort to promote the success of the company. It was also a matter of the trade-off of rewards. Many small companies did not want to use the cash they got from investors to pay high or market rates to their employees and wished to defer that by providing people with the opportunity to have shares to share in the ultimate long-term success of the business. That is a tremendously powerful model for many sectors, not just the technology sector but other sectors of our economy, in that people are willing to trade off immediate returns for long-term rewards.
When we consider other ways to think about compensation, which will, I think, be a growing issue over the next five years, we must consider how to encourage people to defer some of their compensation until later in their lives. I can understand how the promotion of employee shareholding helps with short and long-term rewards, but my concern is that combining that with employee rights means that clarity might be lost. Rather than being given a positive impression about why we are encouraging employees to become shareholders, people will instead ask whether there is a catch. It should be absolutely clear that there is no catch when people are being offered shares. This is clearly an issue of deferring compensation from period x to period y.
I am concerned that, as I have said, this is perhaps a policy in search of a problem. As with so much that Government do, we will see unintended consequences. If the new clause is targeted at small businesses, we must remember that the Government have other options at their disposal. Just a week or two ago, the Centre for Policy Studies produced some very positive policies about abolishing corporation tax for very small businesses and abolishing capital gains tax for investors. To my mind, that would have more of an impact on encouraging more entrepreneurial businesses. We have recently seen news about the merger of national insurance and income tax, which would alleviate some of the burdens and complexity for business in managing employees.
Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)
When I visit small businesses in my constituency, I am sometimes quite shocked that, say, one person out of 10—a large proportion of the staff—has to spend all his or her time dealing with regulations and sorting out the problems they cause rather than getting on with making money.
Richard Fuller
My hon. Friend speaks from great experience and is, as usual, exactly on the point. For many small business people, the biggest constraint is time: they have to be the sales person, the accountant, the HR person and the form filler. The policy that has given rise to new clause 11 is supposed to be helping those people, but I think there are many other ways we can support our small businesses that would have a greater impact.
One of those is that the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills should lose its great focus on a grand industrial policy, centred on our large corporations, and start to show a bit of passion about our small businesses. I know that the Secretary of State is a good friend of the Treasury Bench—obviously, he is a member of it—but somehow we are not getting the focus and heart for our small businesses that we should be getting, and it would be good to hear that voice coming through louder and clearer.
I am drawn by Opposition Members’ eloquence on the questions they are raising about this policy. It did not occur to me at the start of our support for the policy that it was going to be a big policy that would have an impact on many businesses. I would be interested to hear an update from the Minister on where the policy is taking us and what our goals are when it comes to promoting employee shareholding. What are his concerns? Does he share my concern that, in trying to put together promotion of employee shareholding and reductions in employee rights, we may be failing to make progress on two issues, rather than making progress on both?
Mike Kane
It is a delight to follow the hon. Member for Bedford (Richard Fuller), who spoke with such authority about his work now and previously with small businesses. It was a pleasure to serve with him on the Finance Bill Committee, where generally he spoke loyally from the Government Benches on his party’s agenda, even though he disagrees slightly with the policy before the House now. It is also a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans), who spoke articulately and ably, using his experience as a former trade union official.
I believe that shares for rights as it has been proposed lacks common human dignity. We know that the main purpose of Government is to protect individuals, communities and their property from exploitation and harm; Government must also provide a stable economic, social and legal framework for businesses and economies to thrive. The proposal does not do that. As I mentioned earlier, Lord O’Donnell described shares for rights as a form of modern-day slavery. It creates a two-tier market and a two-tier work force—one part having sold its rights and the other retaining them. I think that that is wrong for our economy.
The policy was announced with great fanfare in 2013, but the shares for rights scheme cannot be described as anything other than a massive flop. It is also proving to be another bone of contention in our fractured coalition. The Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, the hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson), and the Secretary of State are nowhere to be seen near the proposal. The real problem, though, as the Chancellor has found, is that it has been impossible to get employer organisations to back the scheme. As my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North (Catherine McKinnell) said, according to the most recent information we have—hopefully, the Minister will update us—there were 19 expressions of interest by December last year. The Office for Budget Responsibility says it could be used as a tax dodge, costing us—the Treasury—nearly £1 billion a year. In this age of austerity, that is the last type of policy we need to be introducing.
Ministers seek to introduce the scheme without proper discussion, and without proper consultation, as my hon. Friend the Member for Islwyn said, and have proceeded in what can only be described as a very chaotic way. Following the publication of the details of the scheme, a Government source was quoted as saying that the scheme was on “life support”, but Ministers still went ahead. As was mentioned earlier, John Cridland, director-general of the CBI, said that this was a niche idea that businesses really do not want. There is unanimity among people who really care about employers and their rights and those Opposition Members who believe that employees should also be shareholders and work hard in their small and medium-sized enterprises, where most employees now reside.
Chris Evans
Does my hon. Friend think it is just a coincidence that the vast majority of the FTSE 100 companies also find themselves in the list of the top 100 best places to work in the UK, and they have not rolled back employment rights in any way and have successful share save schemes, as I mentioned earlier?
Mike Kane
The best organisations offer benefits in kind, which can be shares to their employees. I and many in the House have no problem with that.
This measure is wrong for business and wrong for employee-business relations, and I urge all hon. Members to support the new clause.
Ian Murray
I apologise to the House for not being present at the beginning of the debate. The previous debate finished slightly earlier so there was a clash with something else that I had in my diary. However, I want to make a few comments on this because it harks back to new clause 14, which we debated earlier. All we are looking for in new clause 11 is some transparency on this policy. We know it was introduced with great fanfare by the Chancellor at the Conservative party conference last October when he said:
“Workers of the world unite.”
The conclusion to the workers of the world uniting was that everyone united against this policy.
This is incredibly relevant to the Finance Bill because it has created a significant tax loophole. On new clause 14 on the 50p tax rate and the need for transparency on how much tax that takes, the Government said clearly that 45p brings in more tax at the top rate than 50p, which brings in less because of tax avoidance. In this case, we are looking at the biggest tax avoidance measure we can get. It has been described by the Institute of Fiscal Studies as a billion-pound tax lollipop on the table. If we are serious about tackling such tax avoidance, it would be great for transparency, not just for the House but for the country, if a report were produced showing take up and the consequences of that.
Because it is such an important prospect, we need to look at what the Chancellor tried to do in his conference speech. We will end up in the situation where people are able to sell their rights for a few pounds that might be worth nothing. That is not the kind of working society that we want. It is not the kind of partnership that we want between employers and employees and trade unions, whereby people can sell their rights for maternity pay, unfair dismissal, and all those rights referred to by Beecroft in his report for the Prime Minister. We now have a fire-at-will culture, which does nothing to dispel the Government’s move towards a hire-and-fire culture with this proposal. There are the hallmarks of another tax avoidance scheme. Why on earth would we want to produce a scheme that not only allows people to sell their rights and not be covered by any employment rights, but to be in a situation whereby those at the top end of businesses can use these mechanisms to avoid paying tax? I hope that the Minister can address some of those serious concerns when he replies.
I cannot understand why the Government would not accept new clause 11 if they are so confident that this measure will be well used, resulting in a transformation in entrepreneurship, with people hiring more and more employees because they do not have what the Government would call the burden of employee relations. Why would they not want to produce a report showing how many people are using the measure? I do not understand why they do not want to produce a report showing the impact on the Treasury coffers, through capital gains tax and any other tax receipts that might be lost.
It is important for the Government to have confidence in their proposals. The Chancellor was confident when he announced it with great fanfare. I am not sure whether it will have any take-up, because of the way it has been presented and the message it sends out. Justin King, the former chief executive of Sainsbury’s, said that it sends out a poor message. Many chief executives and business owners say that it sends out such a poor message on the partnership we want in the workplace.
Therefore, if the Government wish to have confidence in their own policies, it is only right that they agree to new clause 11, bring forward the report setting out the take-up and the data collected on the scheme and publish further reports every year. If the scheme is denying people their rights at work at the same time as denying the Treasury valuable income, this House should know about it and be able to debate it so that it can hold the Government properly to account.
Mr Gauke
As we have heard, new clause 11 would require the Chancellor to review the impact of the new employee shareholder status on tax revenues and to publish a report setting out the impact on capital gains tax receipts, the estimated value of shares owned by employees with employee shareholder agreements and the number of such employees. Let me set out why I believe the new clause is unnecessary—a word the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North (Catherine McKinnell) rightly predicted would come up, although, to be fair, we have had this debate before.
It is far too early for any detailed information on the employee shareholder status to be available. It has been available only since 1 September 2013, and we have not yet reached the deadline by which companies must submit their annual share scheme returns covering that period. Therefore, the Government do not yet have full information about the use of the new employment status. Once received, it will take time to process and analyse those data. The Government set out the potential impact on tax revenues in our tax information and impact note for the employee shareholder tax reliefs, and there are currently no additional data available that would allow that to be updated.
In addition, it is not necessary for a requirement to publish information to be placed in legislation. HMRC publishes a wide range of information about employee share schemes with no such statutory obligation. For example, only last week it published a wealth of data on the use of the tax advantaged employee share schemes during the year ending 2012-13.
We will consider whether that type of publication is appropriate for employee shareholder status or whether a different approach might better enable an evaluation of the employee shareholder status. As the Government have made clear, the employee shareholder scheme is different from the existing tax advantaged employee share schemes. It is primarily designed as an employment measure to encourage choice, growth and flexibility over the long term, rather than being focused on tax advantages. We will want to take those broader factors into account when evaluating the policy. However, given that employee shareholder legislation has been in operation for less than a year, it is simply too early to be finalising any details in that area.
Ian Swales
I certainly accept the Minister’s point about the timing for reporting back on the scheme. However, we are starting to see examples of the very few companies that are taking it up, and they seem to be focused on high earners in industries such as private equity, who arguably are not very worried about their employee rights anyway. For example, eight managers at European Capital each received the maximum £50,000 recently when they sold one of their businesses. Can the Minister say what kinds of companies are registering and how the scheme is working so far?
Mr Gauke
We have been consistent throughout. No one argues that the arrangement is right for everybody; it will be suitable only in particular circumstances. It is more likely to be relevant for fast-growing areas involving a relatively small number of highly valued individuals who benefit from arrangements that incentivise performance but who are not necessarily looking for extensive employment rights.
It has been said before in the context of this debate that there are employees who benefit in full from employment rights; there are the self-employed, who have essentially no rights in this area; and there is a gap in the middle. Part of the thinking behind the arrangement is about ensuring that something appropriate falls in between—something useful for fast-growing small and medium-sized companies that want to create a flexible work force.
Ian Murray
I appreciate the intervention just made by the hon. Member for Redcar (Ian Swales). The issue is surely not one of employment flexibility; it is about maximising tax advantages. The policy has been announced on the basis of allowing companies—particularly high-growth technology companies—to employ people on a more flexible basis, but the example just given by the hon. Gentleman goes completely against that. That shows that the scheme is being used for tax-avoidance purposes.
Mr Gauke
I do not accept that. As far as avoidance is concerned, the tax reliefs are intended to encourage the take-up of employee shareholder status by individuals when that is offered to them. However, those reliefs are not an end in themselves. A number of rules in the legislation will prevent abuse of the new status while keeping it as simple as possible for employers and employees to use. For example, there are rules that will stop people with a material interest in the relevant business exploiting the tax reliefs for their or their families’ benefit. We will always keep the matter under review. As I said, if we see any abuse, we will act. However, we believe that we have put in place rules that protect the Exchequer from such tax avoidance.
I want to say a little more about take-up. My hon. Friend the Member for Rochford and Southend East (James Duddridge) made a good point: the argument is simultaneously that no one is making use of the scheme and that the scheme will cost a lot in tax avoidance. There is something of a tension between those two positions.
We decided not to introduce a pre-registration or pre-approval system for those wishing to make an employee shareholder agreement. The Office of Tax Simplification has told us that HMRC pre-approval of share schemes is outdated and time consuming for businesses. Data on employee shareholder status will therefore be picked up from companies’ annual share scheme returns to HMRC. As I said, the scheme has been in place only since the beginning of September 2013, so we have not even reached the deadline by which companies must submit their returns to HMRC for that period. It is far too early to finalise any details of publication.
Catherine McKinnell
Given the widespread concern expressed about the scheme, is the Minister’s position—that the Government will just wait and see—not incredibly complacent? When the returns come in, the scheme may prove to have been one big tax avoidance opportunity, but the Government seem perfectly relaxed about that.
Mr Gauke
No, that is not the case. As I said, when the original legislation was passed, protections were put in place; a moment ago, I gave an example of one designed to prevent abuse. We will continue to monitor the issue. As with all activities, if evidence of avoidance emerges, the Government will be determined to act, as we have time and again.
On the data on employee shareholders and on take-up, a question raised by a number of hon. Members, I am simply seeking to explain that I am not in a position to give the information that the hon. Lady and others have asked for because we have not required pre-approval or pre-registration for the scheme. That point is also relevant to the FT figures on take-up that have been mentioned. As there is no need for companies making use of the employee shareholding scheme to contact BIS in advance and there is no registration or approval system, we do not expect BIS to have a definitive list of all those companies that have made use of the scheme. That is why I am not in a position to give that information to the House and why the figures that were used by the Financial Times should not necessarily attract a huge amount of excitement.
The scheme is a new facet of our employment practices. It is probably unfair to judge a scheme such as this in its first few months because it will need time to bed in before there is wider knowledge about it and it is more widely used. As I have said, I am not in a position to provide information at this point.
Ian Murray
I am grateful to my favourite Treasury Minister for allowing me to intervene again. What the Minister is missing is that, according to his Government’s own figures in the Red Book, £1 billion has been allocated to this proposal. Why will he not agree to the new clause, which would allow the House to scrutinise what that £1 billion of public money is being used for? That way we could avoid the situation raised by the hon. Member for Redcar in which people use the scheme to avoid tax rather than as a proposal to create growth and to get more people into employment by denying them their workers’ rights.
Mr Gauke
It is always a great pleasure to give way to my favourite Member of Parliament for Edinburgh South. In quoting the figure of £1 billion he is somewhat conflating two things. One is the OBR’s estimate of the potential cost of the scheme some years into the future, if a whole set of circumstances apply and we do not take action to deal with any concerns that might emerge. As far as the Red Book is concerned, the published estimates of the annual cost of the measures are £10 million in 2016-17 and £45 million in 2017-18. Those are the numbers and we have no reason to believe that they will prove inaccurate, so to correct the hon. Gentleman for the record, we are not talking about a cost of £1 billion.
New clause 11 would impose an obligation on the Government that is not only unnecessary but, as I have set out in some detail, could not be met given the current availability of data on take-up of the employee shareholder status. Given that the new clause is unnecessary and would be unworkable, I ask the Opposition not to press it.
Catherine McKinnell
It will be no surprise that I find the Minister’s response extremely disappointing and a little concerning in its complacency towards a policy about which widespread concern has been expressed. Taking away the rights of working people across the UK is no substitute for a proper strategy for economic growth. The policy makes it easier to reduce rights at work and fire people, rather than making it easier to hire people. That shows just how out of touch the Government are.
I commend the hon. Member for Bedford (Richard Fuller) on his thoughtful speech. I also commend my hon. Friend the Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans) on his mammoth and excellent speech, and my hon. Friends the Members for Wythenshawe and Sale East (Mike Kane) and for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray). Opposition Members have put forward a powerful argument for the reasonable new clause that we have tabled. It simply asks the Government to make a proper assessment of who is taking up the shares for rights offer and what the cost to the Exchequer will be, including any loss from tax avoidance or abuse. As far as we can see, this is just another way in which the Government are trying to water down the rights of people at work.
Frankly, to Opposition Members and the many business organisations that have expressed their concerns, this policy stinks. The House and members of the public deserve to know exactly what the implications of the policy will be before the horse has bolted. The Government say that they will only shut the gate once that has happened. [Interruption.] I hear hon. Members groan at that, but I quote Lord Deben:
“I cannot imagine any circumstances whatever in which this would be of any use to any business that I have ever come across in my entire life.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 6 February 2013; Vol. 743, c. 293.]
I think that he puts it very well.
Ian Murray
The Minister tried to respond to my two interventions about tax evasion by reading figures from the Red Book. However, the accompanying document to the autumn statement of 2012, at which this policy was announced, states that the policy could cost upwards of £1 billion because there are uncertainties around
“the extent of tax planning”.
That sounds to me like tax avoidance.
Catherine McKinnell
I, too, took great interest in what the Minister said, because he seemed to disown the figures that were published by the Office for Budget Responsibility on this policy, as though they were in some unknown ether in the future. He appeared to be saying, “It’s nothing to do with me, guv.” The figures that the OBR predicts are very clear. It will cost £1 billion and a quarter of that can be attributed to tax planning and, if the concerns of the hon. Member for Redcar (Ian Swales) are borne out, tax avoidance.
Ian Swales
I am sorry to have missed some of the erudite contributions to this debate, especially that of the hon. Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans), whom I always enjoy hearing. I do not know whether these points have been mentioned. Is the hon. Lady concerned about the effect on competition between businesses if one business uses this process and another does not? Secondly, is she aware that the Office for Budget Responsibility thinks that existing share schemes may be shoehorned into the new process, meaning that people who are already in share schemes and who have employee rights might suddenly find themselves forced into the new arrangements?
Catherine McKinnell
I share all those concerns and many more. Ultimately, it is for the Government to take on board what is being said to them so clearly, but they seem to be ignoring it. The hon. Gentleman will know that he has the opportunity to vote with the Opposition on new clause 11 and to get the Government to sit up and listen to the concerns that are being expressed. Perhaps the data will show that the scheme has had a fantastic take-up, that it is entirely fair and that it has created many new jobs. Perhaps it is the boost for growth and job creation that the Chancellor proclaimed it would be. Alternatively, they might show that it is just a tax avoidance opportunity that is unfair to the employees who are forced into it against their will.
The Conservative, Baroness Wheatcroft, said:
“Let us imagine a group of employees who have sold their rights—for a mess of pottage, as we have heard—and another group who have not. The company falls on hard times and has to declare redundancies. Who will be first in the line for redundancy? I would hazard a guess that it will be those who have shown the most commitment to the business by becoming employee shareholders under the new scheme. That is the sort of perverse effect that we are likely to see if the clause goes through.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 20 March 2013; Vol. 744, c. 618.]
That is the sort of perverse effect that we want the Government to take action on by producing the data that will enable Members of this House to know the true impact of this employee shares for rights scheme.
I urge all hon. Members to vote for new clause 11.
Question put, That the clause be read a Second time.
Shabana Mahmood
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
We now come to the last of our debates on the Finance Bill today. New clause 12 would require a report by the Chancellor within six months of Royal Assent, setting out further proposals to reduce the tax advantages arising from tax arrangements that are abusive. It makes particular reference to the quoted eurobonds exemption, disguised employment in the construction sector, and the use of dormant companies as a means of tax avoidance. The new clause would require an assessment of the impact of all three on total receipts paid to the Exchequer.
Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)
In relation to eurobonds, I read a report that the shadow Chancellor has suggested that there is £500 million at stake. Will the hon. Lady confirm her understanding of the costings?
Shabana Mahmood
I will turn at length to costings of the abuse of the quoted eurobonds exemption, but it is certainly true that many of the estimates of how much it might be costing the Exchequer have placed the figure at around £500 million.
Let me start with the context and explain the thinking behind our new clause. Public concern about tax avoidance is high, and this is a problem not only for the Government but for parties across the House. The setting of tax rates, decisions about tax reliefs, and the collection of tax are among the most important functions of government. If the system is not working as well as it could be, that needs to be addressed. Over the past couple of years, there have been a number of high-profile media stories focused on the tax arrangements of particular companies and individuals, as a result of which, it is fair to say, public trust in the tax system has been eroded.
The deficit, as we know, is high and will not now be cleared by 2015, as the Government promised when they came to office in 2010. It will not, in fact, be eliminated until well into the next Parliament.
Sir Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con)
As the hon. Lady has mentioned the deficit, would she now like to apologise on behalf of the Labour party for the catastrophic destruction of the public finances in the last Parliament?
Shabana Mahmood
I think the hon. Gentleman and other Government Members should apologise for the fact that their Government have delivered a huge tax cut for millionaires while households are on average £974 a year worse off. That is a deplorable record and the Government should apologise for it.
We have already discussed at length today the fact that ordinary working people in our country are worse off as a result of this Government’s economic plan. As I have said, households are £974 a year worse off as a result of tax and benefit changes, and wages will be 5.6% lower in 2015 than they were in 2010. We also know that it is the richest 1% of the country who have benefited most from the recovery. With working people facing a cost of living crisis, it is vital that everyone pays their fair share and that we restore public trust. When ordinary people are struggling with their household budgets, which are stretched ever thinner, it is understandable that there will be increasing anger if they feel that others are successfully avoiding tax and the Government are failing to do enough about it.
The same goes for businesses, too. We know that small and medium-sized enterprises are struggling with business rates, for example, which have gone up since 2010. Many businesses are now paying more in rates than they do in rent. Businesses that do the right thing when it comes to tax are understandably frustrated and angry when they see others that do not play by the rules, and they are right to think that there should be a level playing field, so that those who do the right thing are not penalised because others get away with not paying their fair share. High-profile cases of tax avoidances have therefore undermined public trust in company taxation and hit businesses that play by the rules.
Our best measure of how well the system is working is the tax gap—which is effectively the amount of uncollected tax in the economy—which has risen under this Government by £1 billion to a total of £35 billion.
Shabana Mahmood
I know the Minister will say that it has gone down in percentage terms, but only by 0.1%. I assume that that was the intention behind the intervention he was about to make.
Shabana Mahmood
Focusing on the actual figure is important. It concentrates the mind when assessing the scale of the task both for this Government and the successor Government in 2015. By anyone’s analysis, £35 billion is a huge sum, which, if collected, would make a very significant difference to the nation’s finances.
Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab)
My hon. Friend is making an excellent speech and she is right that this is a large sum of money. It is equivalent to 9p on the standard rate of income tax.
Shabana Mahmood
My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. He is of course right that this is a huge sum of money and that people are rightly concerned that £35 billion-worth of tax is potentially going uncollected in our country.
Ian Swales
I am certainly no defender of the tax gap, and I am on record as having challenged the whole system of tax avoidance many times. However, does the hon. Lady know what the tax gap was in 2010 when the previous Government left office?
Shabana Mahmood
The truth is that any tax gap, however big or small, is unacceptable to the public, and strong action should always be taken to tackle it. I was about to say that I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman and that it was £32 billion. As I say, that is too high, and it has gone up to £35 billion under this Government. These large sums of money shake the public’s confidence when it comes to believing that the Government are doing everything they can to tackle tax avoidance.
Shabana Mahmood
I will take further interventions later, but I want to make some progress.
What else has been happening on this Government’s watch? The Government have raised expectations in respect of some aspects of their tax avoidance policy, but they have not been met. In particular—we have put this point to the Minister on many occasions—the Swiss deal, which was supposed to bring in £3.12 billion, a sum that would have gone some way towards making a dent in the tax gap, has in fact brought in only £818 million. I know the Minister will say that the figures were okayed by the independent Office for Budget Responsibility when the costings were put in the Red Book, but that does not mean that the Minister can simply get away with it. At the end of the day, there is an unexplained and substantial difference between what was meant to happen as a result of that deal and what did in fact happen, raising questions about the substance of the deal.
Another feature of public debate as the issue of tax avoidance has shot up the public agenda relates to Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs. If we are to close the tax gap, we need HMRC to be as effective as possible. Last year’s Public Accounts Committee report “Tax avoidance: tackling marketed avoidance schemes” found that HMRC did not know how much it spent on its anti-avoidance work and had not evaluated the effectiveness of its efforts. It calls for HMRC to improve its recording and monitoring of the cost of its anti-avoidance work and to set out clearly how it will evaluate its anti-avoidance strategy. This is a substantial gap in knowledge; again, it has a direct impact on the Government’s ability to tackle tax avoidance effectively and thereby close the tax gap.
Charlie Elphicke
It is worth noting that last year tax inspectors collected a record £23.9 billion, about £4 billion of which was from criminals and tax avoiders, so HMRC has been quite effective in collecting that record amount.
Shabana Mahmood
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his intervention, but as I just said, the tax gap has widened: despite those efforts, it has gone up by £1 billion or more.
The Public Accounts Committee also raised concerns about the monitoring of tax relief at HMRC and the Treasury. In 2013, there were 1,128 tax reliefs in the UK taxation system—a number that continues to grow. Tax reliefs can range from fundamental components of the tax system, such as the level of the personal allowance, to tax expenditures with more specific objectives to change behaviour, such as film tax relief. They play an important role in the tax system, but can be abused. Indeed, even in this Finance Bill the Government have had to take steps to close down the abuse of tax reliefs. It is therefore very worrying that the Public Accounts Committee has concluded:
“There is a lack of transparency and accountability for tax reliefs and no adequate system of control, following their introduction. HMRC and HM Treasury share responsibility for tax reliefs, but there is no accounting officer with responsibility for the stewardship of tax reliefs, as there would be for”
other elements of
“public spending. In 2010, HM Treasury committed to developing a framework for the introduction of new reliefs”.
However, no measures have been implemented so far.
In December 2013—this is relevant to what the hon. Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke) said a moment ago—there were just four full-time officers in the fugitive unit, trying to catch 124 HMRC fugitives. The Government launched a “most wanted” campaign in August 2012, but earlier this year it was found that just four fugitives had been caught since the publication of the list. Moreover, it was admitted that of the 32 “most wanted”, 11 could not be located. If the Government are to support their claim that they are succeeding in the fight against tax avoidance and evasion, they must be able to demonstrate that they will catch those who break and abuse the rules, and will prosecute them to the full extent of the law.
Kelvin Hopkins
Does not what my hon. Friend is saying suggest that there is a cosy relationship between the Conservative party and the very rich? The Conservatives do not want to chase those people, because they do not want to upset their friends.
Shabana Mahmood
My hon. Friend has made his point powerfully, and in his characteristic way.
As we can see, despite the Government’s claims, their record of tackling tax avoidance is simply not good enough in a number of areas. They will say that the avoidance measures in this Bill are radical and bold, and are evidence of a commitment to tackling avoidance. We have supported the measures relating to follower notices, accelerated payment notices and the need to tackle promoters of tax avoidance schemes, although we have questioned the Minister about some of the deeply felt concerns of those who will be affected by the follower notices regime and by accelerated payment notices, which have caused a great deal of debate outside the House. However, although those measures have received the Opposition’s support, the fact is that they are not revenue raisers. They will simply bring in money that the Government were expecting to collect, but which had been clogging up the various back channels and alleyways of the legal system.
Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)
The hon. Lady has mentioned a number of measures, and has made some good points. Should not the Government be pursuing large multinationals such as Microsoft and Google, which are not paying a penny in corporation tax?
Shabana Mahmood
I think the Government should adopt an across-the-board strategy. I think they should deal with companies of all sizes, as well as individuals who engage in the various types of tax avoidance and evasion. I have mentioned a number of areas where there is concern about the Government’s action to date, and about their record of being able to narrow the tax gap.
The Government’s other flagship policy, introduced last year, is the general anti-abuse rule. Of course, it will take some time for the GAAR to settle in, as it is a new measure, and it is not yet clear how it will operate in practice, because it has not yet been the subject of a court case. It is, however, striking that no penalties regime associated with abuse falls within its remit. One would have thought that such a regime was a deterrent, and that the Government would want to make it clear that the type of abuse caught by the GAAR—abuse of the most egregious nature—would not be tolerated. However, it seems that an individual who fell foul of the GAAR, having engaged in the most egregious form of tax abuse, would incur no penalty but would merely be required to pay the amount that had been disputed. That strikes me as an interesting omission from the GAAR and the Government’s arsenal of measures to tackle tax avoidance.
Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con)
I think we went through this in the Finance Bill Committee last year. It would be somewhat iniquitous to have a higher penalty for a scheme that complied with the letter of the law but was subsequently ruled out of order by the GAAR than for one that was blatantly outside the law in the first place. I think we should stick to the standard penalties that apply for under-declaring tax on a tax return.
Shabana Mahmood
That may be the hon. Gentleman’s view, but I am simply pointing out that in order to fall foul of the GAAR someone has to have engaged in the most egregious form of abuse. It seems odd to me that falling foul of the GAAR will not therefore attract any additional penalty on top of the tax that is in dispute.
Shabana Mahmood
No, I am going to make some more progress.
Tax avoidance and how to tackle it effectively and thereby close the tax gap remains a real problem for this Government, hence our new clause. We need more action from this Government, and where they fail the next Labour Government will step in. We are pushing the Government for greater action in three specific areas. Let me take each in turn.
Ian Swales
The hon. Lady talks about the next Labour Government. Does she wish to apologise for the slashing of the number of compliance and investigation staff by the previous Labour Government, to the point where this Government have had to add large numbers of people to carry out the work she so much wants?
Shabana Mahmood
Given the cuts at HMRC, this Government’s record on HMRC resources, which is a topic I regularly debate with the Minister, is not one for Members on the Government Benches to show off about.
First, let me take the issue of the quoted eurobonds exemption. That was originally implemented to make it easier for companies to obtain finance from the international bond markets by excluding corporate debt listed on recognised stock exchanges from UK withholding tax. Making it easier for companies to obtain finance on the international bond markets is a legitimate objective that we support. However, as covered in a spate of high-profile media stories last year, the exemption can also be used for tax avoidance purposes, allowing companies to shift profits out of the UK in the form of interest payments, without making any tax payment. As HMRC has noted:
“In recent years a number of groups have issued Eurobonds between companies in the same group, and listed them on stock exchanges in territories such as the Channel Islands and Cayman Islands, where they are not actually traded. In effect, the conversion of existing inter-company debt into quoted Eurobonds enables a company to make gross payments of interest out of the UK to a fellow group company, where otherwise deduction of tax would be required.”
The Government consulted on the issue in 2012, with HMRC proposing to amend the eurobond exemption so it would not apply where the eurobond is issued to a fellow group company and listed on a stock exchange on which there is no substantial or regular trading in the eurobond. HMRC stated:
“The effect of the amended rule would be to leave untouched the quoted Eurobond exemption for the overwhelming majority of Eurobond issues. It would deny the exemption only in the case of intra-group Eurobond issues that appear to be undertaken for the purpose of circumventing the requirement to deduct tax at source rather than being directed at the raising of third party finance.”
Despite HMRC estimating that the proposed restriction could have an extra impact of £200 million a year, in their response, the Government stated that they did not intend to proceed with it. Why not? Well, the Government said they made that decision in the “light of the responses” they received around a number of technical issues and after respondents questioned the positive Exchequer effect set out in the impact assessment.
That is simply not good enough. We say that abuse of the exemption can be shut down and must be shut down. Our proposals will explore removing the exemption where bonds are issued to connected persons, such as where a subsidiary issues a bond to a corporate parent or its private equity fund owners. To minimise disruption to private equity funds using the mechanism to simplify investor rebate claims under double taxation treaties, we would explore either offering an exemption for private equity partnerships where all, or the vast majority of, the ultimate beneficiaries would qualify for double taxation relief, or streamlining the withholding tax rebate process in consultation with the industry. So there is a mechanism to shut down the abuse of the exemption. It could and should have been taken up by the Government.
The estimates of the Exchequer impact of closing the loophole range from £1 billion to the Government’s estimate of about £200 million, with many more commentators saying that they would place it at about £500 million. In a letter to me dated 4 March 2014, the Minister said:
“Some newspapers quoted a figure of £500m for the tax at risk. This appears to be based on the unrealistic assumption that the interest paid out of the UK had not been restricted for tax purposes and that the beneficial recipient would not be entitled to gross payment. You will appreciate that I cannot discuss individual cases, but HMRC has confirmed to me that computational adjustments are frequently made. Consequently, the £500m sum is very wide of the mark. Any change here will not raise any significant yield.”
I was interested in that response, for which I was grateful and which I received after I had tabled a number of questions about the quoted eurobond exemption, because it displayed a concerning lack of clarity. The Minister says that the numbers quoted are “wide of the mark” but he does not say where the mark actually is. That is surprising, given that HRMC and the Minister have examined this in detail and have consulted on it, and given that they tell us that “computational adjustments” are regularly made for it. Despite that, still no figure has been given.
Mr Gauke
In my letter, I also offered the hon. Lady a meeting, attended by officials, to discuss the matter and explain some of these points to her further. I will try not to be personally slighted, but she has not responded to that offer. Why has she not done so? Is it because of the fear that when confronted with some of the challenges in this area she might find that this is all slightly more complicated than she has been led to believe by one or two newspaper articles?
Shabana Mahmood
I am grateful to the Minister for his intervention and I hope he does not take it as a personal slight that I did not, on that occasion, take him up on the offer of a meeting. I will try not to be patronised by the suggestion that these matters are far too complicated for me to understand and that I am getting my information only from newspaper articles.
Mr Gauke
It is quite the opposite: I have absolute confidence that the hon. Lady would have the capacity to understand that this matter is somewhat difficult, but it is often advantageous to speak to the officials who deal with it on a day-to-day basis in order to have a better understanding of it. It would be of benefit to her, and to the House as a whole, to ensure that this debate could take place on the basis of as good an understanding of the matter as possible. By the way, the invitation still stands.
Shabana Mahmood
I may yet take the Minister up on it. But it would be a mistake for him to think that our proposal has been made without consulting experts who are very much engaged on the issue of eurobonds. I am confident that the information we have put out as a result of our business taxation paper, launched yesterday, is accurate and that we have considered the different legal and other ramifications of limiting the abuse of the exemption as it currently stands.
Shabana Mahmood
I am going to make a bit more progress.
Let us say for the sake of argument that the figure is close to the £200 million or so set out in the original HMRC consultation. I was surprised that the Minister did not think that sum would merit action. The tone of his comments to me suggested that he considered that to be a small sum and so it was not worth going ahead with the attempt to close down the abuse of the exemption. I am afraid that, as an argument, that is not something that I am prepared to buy. Why? Well, in this year’s Finance Bill Committee, we have debated and supported a measure in clause 61 on business premises renovation allowances.
Mr Gauke
I would hate it if the hon. Lady inadvertently gave the impression that it was my view that the £200 million was not something that we would seek to address; we certainly would. In my letter to her of 4 March, I said:
“In the small number of cases in which a restriction might be considered appropriate, it was also clear from the consultation responses that the proposal would not be effective in addressing the concerns.”
In other words, the proposal that was consulted on would not have got the £200 million. That is why we did not proceed with it. I want to make that clear, and I am sure that she would not want to give a misleading impression.
Shabana Mahmood
I am grateful to the Minister for that intervention. I was talking about the overall yield. On the difference between the Government and the Opposition in relation to the technical way in which to seek to close down the exemption, the Government consultation looked at situations in which the bonds are not being actively traded. We agreed that that was not an appropriate way in which to close the exemption but, as I have said, we would explore removing the exemption where the bonds are issued to connected persons and, in doing so, we would look at mechanisms to simplify rebate claims under the double taxation treaties and consider, in consultation with industry, streamlining the withholding tax rebate process.
Charlie Elphicke
On these particular provisions, the hon. Lady said that she consulted experts. Will she confirm which particular experts she consulted?
Shabana Mahmood
I would be happy to have a long conversation with the hon. Gentleman about all the different experts, but let me just say that our experts were drawn from across the business and legal worlds. They gave advice and assisted us in thinking through many of the issues related to the abuse of the quoted eurobonds exemption. I will not take this opportunity to put that advice on the record, because I have not sought the permission of those experts to make public some of the assistance and advice that they have given to us. However, our paper is thorough on the issue of how we would seek to close down abuse of the exemption. That tells the House that we have considered these issues deeply, and have thought through all of the problems that might arise from the different attempts to close down the exemption.
I was talking about yield, and how far a potential yield should dictate the Government’s policy in deciding whether to close down an abuse of the system. I referred to the business premises renovation allowance in clause 61. The Government have taken action to close down some of the abuse associated with that allowance, but the impact on the Exchequer was, we were told, negligible. So we see the Government proactively closing down a loophole in which the Exchequer impact is expected to be minimal, but where a loophole exists that is estimated to cost the Exchequer upwards of £200 million a year, they do nothing. How can they justify their decision not to take action to prevent the abusive use of the eurobonds exemption when there are hundreds of millions of pounds at stake?
The potential complexity of the change that would be required is no justification for the failure to act. It has not stopped this Government on other measures, including on the business premises renovation allowance. There seems to be no reason—not money, complexity or anything else—that could stop the Government from acting other than intense lobbying from the affected parties seeking to protect their own interests.
The Government have failed to act, but our new clause gives them the opportunity to do so. If they do not act, the next Labour Government will.
Shabana Mahmood
I want to make some more progress.
Secondly, we want to push the Government to take action on disguised employment in the construction industry. Employers falsely declaring their workers to be self-employed is a long-standing and well-documented issue in the sector. Although there is of course some necessary and genuine self-employment in the sector, employers are currently able to declare someone to be self-employed when they exhibit all of the characteristics of an employee.
That results in three problems. The first is a cost to the Exchequer. The Treasury has estimated that that entailed a static cost of £350 million in 2009 and the House of Commons Library recently produced an estimate of about £500 million. The second problem is that those falsely classified as self-employed are denied their employment rights. That means that workers might work for the same company for several years, effectively as an employee, while not receiving any of the resulting employment rights, such as sick pay, holiday pay and maternity and paternity leave.
Shabana Mahmood
My hon. Friend is absolutely right about the findings of that report and we know that this is a real problem, particularly for people in the construction industry.
Kelvin Hopkins
My hon. Friend is making a very fine speech and I agree with what she is saying. In 1970, I serviced on the TUC construction committee, and a major item on the agenda at the time was bogus self-employment and the loss to the taxpayer. Another point is important, too. They do not pay their national insurance, so they will suffer when their pensions come to be paid.
Shabana Mahmood
I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who is right that this is a long-standing problem for Governments of all colours and persuasions who have for too long been unable to deal with these very serious issues which result in people not being entitled to sick pay, holiday pay, maternity and paternity leave and other employee rights.
The third problem associated with disguised self-employment is that the unhealthy level of self-employment in the construction industry—40% compared with an average of 14% across all other industries—does not offer a sustainable skill supply for emerging growth opportunities or a change in the economic weather. Employers who want to invest in their staff and employ directly are losing out to companies that use payroll companies which, because they are paying less tax, can sometimes offer slightly higher pay to poach skilled staff.
In July 2009, we published proposals to tackle the problems of false self-employment in the construction industry, but it was not until last year’s Budget that the Government took an interest in the problem when they announced that they would consult on proposals to tackle tax avoidance by intermediaries based offshore who provided labour services to UK companies. We are still waiting for the Government’s response to their consultation on onshore intermediaries, which closed, I think, in March.
Last year, the shadow Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves), reviewed the issue and, based on an investigation of the available evidence and widespread consultation with the industry, we have proposed that workers should automatically be deemed to be treated as employees for tax purposes if they meet criteria that most people would regard as obvious signs that they were employees rather than self-employed subcontractors. It is important to note that the measure would not only close a costly tax loophole but remove a perverse financial incentive for those workers whom most would regard as being in an employment relationship to be classified as self-employed. Such a shift would be good for the construction sector and its work force, too. We want the Government to take further action today to consider the issue and prepare the report envisaged in our new clause.
The third area in which we seek greater action is that of dormant companies. It has been estimated that 30% of all UK companies are not asked to submit tax returns. One explanation that has been given is that those companies are either dormant or are not liable to pay tax in the UK as they trade exclusively overseas. Once companies have declared themselves dormant, they are exempted from filing a corporation tax return for five years. For some companies, that window could be used as an opportunity to trade with tax impunity and yesterday we set out our proposals whereby we will require annual confirmation of dormancy and will further explore the possibility of banks’ automatically informing HMRC when there is activity in supposedly dormant accounts. That would deal with an issue of tax evasion, rather than tax avoidance, but it is important that the tax lost as a result of weaknesses in the rules of dormancy is firmly on the Government’s radar and it has not been to date.
As I have set out, tackling tax avoidance and closing the tax gap effectively remains a top priority for the public. This Government’s record is not good enough. Our new clause pushes for greater action on three important issues and practical measures that can help to close the tax gap. We hope that it will have the support of the House this evening.
Sir Gerald Howarth
I am pleased to take part in this debate—it is the first time I have participated in a Finance Bill debate for quite a long time. I rise to take issue with the hon. Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Shabana Mahmood), who made a long and interesting speech, about her definition of tax abuse. Indeed, there was no definition of what is considered to be abusive tax arrangements. I think that we have all become lax in our use of language in a matter which is of huge concern to our fellow citizens, for the powers of the Inland Revenue—HMRC—to take money earned by our fellow citizens is an important power and one that should be used very carefully indeed. This House has a responsibility to ensure that these matters are properly debated.
I have to tell my hon. Friends that I am increasingly alarmed by the Government’s rhetoric on what they refer to as “aggressive tax avoidance”. I was brought up to understand that tax avoidance is not only legitimate but, indeed, the duty of the head of every household. It is not their duty to maximise their tax; it is their duty to minimise it. It is our money, which is taken from us by the Government.
Sir Gerald Howarth
Quite a lot of people want to speak, but the hon. Gentleman is a good man, so I will give way to him briefly.
Kelvin Hopkins
It is a simple point: the great majority of wage earners and salary earners can never escape, avoid or evade tax because they pay through PAYE. They have to pay every penny of their tax every week, every month, every year.
Sir Gerald Howarth
The hon. Gentleman is entirely right, but overwhelmingly it is the entrepreneurs of this country who drive our economy. Ensuring not only that our entrepreneurs are encouraged to invest in providing jobs for people but that this country is a good place in which people from overseas wish to invest their enterprise must be a major consideration.
As I say, I was brought up to understand that tax avoidance is entirely legitimate, and if a scheme is found to be outwith that which the Government intend, it is for Parliament to close any loopholes; tax evasion, on the other hand, is illegal. However, we have become consumed by the idea that because some high-profile companies do not pay tax in this country, tax avoidance as a whole is somehow immoral. I think that some of the companies that do not pay tax here ought to and I strongly support endeavours by the Government to ensure that they pay their fair share, but when, 10 days ago, I was approached by a constituent who told me about the accelerated payment scheme, I became very concerned indeed.
My constituent, a pharmacist, together with a local GP practice and a dentist, wishes to set up an enterprising, innovative scheme in Aldershot to provide a new, modern facility, but if he is told to pay the thick end of £100,000 when he understood the scheme to be perfectly lawful, where is that money to come from and what happens then to his investment in his proposed business? I think this measure will lead to great uncertainty. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mark Field) for the clear way he has drawn attention to the potential repercussions of the Government’s proposal.
The Government are proposing to confer massive powers on state officials. Clause 213(3) provides that
“The payment required to be made under section 216 is an amount equal to the amount which a designated HMRC officer determines, to the best of that officer’s information and belief, as the understated tax.”
There we have it—huge power residing in the hands of unelected officials. We, as right hon. and hon. Members, all know from our constituency experience the number of cases where HMRC gets it wrong. We are invoked to try to recover the money that constituents in many cases have been unable, by direct contact with HMRC, to secure for themselves. Very often, it is only after our intervention that the matter is put right. A dangerous precedent is being set here for a rapacious future Government, perhaps a Labour Government. Perhaps that is what the hon. Lady was threatening; I am not sure that I would yet be in a position to accuse her of being rapacious, but perhaps she will let us know her intention.
We should be careful about giving these extensive powers to HMRC. Interestingly, my noble Friend, Lord Howard of Rising, asked Her Majesty’s Government
“how much money was repaid to taxpayers as a result of overcharging by HM Revenue and Customs in each of 2009-10, 2010-11, 2011-12 and 2012-13.”
The noble Lord Deighton responded:
“The information is not available as HM Revenue and Customs does not collect information on amounts underpaid or overpaid.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 23 June 2014; Vol. 754, c. WA135.]
Therein lies a severe problem. If HMRC is incapable of giving us that information, what confidence can we have that it will exercise these powers carefully?
I quite understand the challenge faced by my hon. Friend the Exchequer Secretary, who is a very splendid Minister indeed, in trying to restore the public finances to order after they were destroyed by the former Prime Minister and Chancellor of the Exchequer. It is a massive challenge that we face. But we could make a start by looking at some of the money owed to Departments. I understand that the Ministry of Justice, for example, has quite a lot of money outstanding. In November 2011, the National Audit Office reported that the Ministry of Justice was owed £2 billion in outstanding fines and uncollected criminal assets. Last year, it wrote off £76 million in uncollected court fines, which was a 50% increase on 2010-11.
I also understand when my hon. Friend says that the Government want to address the issue of taxpayers dragging out contested cases in the courts. It is a fair point. But if the measure goes through, what incentive will there be on state officials, never knowingly understanding the importance of time, to expedite contested claims themselves? The president of the Chartered Institute of Taxation made a good observation. He said:
“We have sympathy with the Government’s need to accelerate dealing with some tens of thousands of outstanding mass marketed avoidance cases which are jamming up the courts…However, handing HMRC almost unprecedented executive powers to decide who falls within the mischief they intend to deal with, without the usual safeguards and appeal rights, is not something which should be done lightly”.
I strongly endorse that.
I remind my hon. Friends that when we came into office 35 years ago, and the noble Lord Howe, then Sir Geoffrey Howe, as Chancellor of the Exchequer, delivered his first Budget on 12 June 1979, he and his successor, my noble Friend Lord Lawson, set about reducing tax, because they believed that by reducing the burden of taxation, they would reduce the incentive for taxpayers to incur costs in seeking tax avoidance schemes. I urge the Government to look more carefully at how we might increase our drive to reduce taxation itself as a more efficient way, a more Conservative way, to reduce the incentive for taxpayers to seek avoidance schemes.
I will not support new clause 12 and do not think that the House should do so, but I do think that it needs to look much more carefully at the powers that the Bill proposes to confer on HMRC officials.
Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab)
On the question of tax avoidance, if the Government do not design the tax system properly and people who should pay tax can avoid it if they do so legally, that might be correct legally, but it is not necessarily correct morally. Having said that, if the Government design the tax system in that way and someone takes advantage of it, particularly an entrepreneur, who might take the money they save in tax and reinvest it in further jobs and enterprises, that person can defend that on the basis that if the Government were really skilful they would not be able to avoid it. On the question of tax evasion, people should go to prison if they evade tax. It is very simple in my view.
I have written to the Minister on behalf of a constituent who is an entrepreneur. He is about to retire and will probably dispose of his company in the process, because he is not talking about another income stream coming from continuing contact with the company. He accuses the Government of bringing in retrospective legislation in this Finance Bill, because from clause 192—I have read this part of the Bill right the way through to chapter 3, which is on accelerated payments—it is quite clear that the Government intend these retrospective investigations to go back to 2004. It gives HMRC power to declare in the arrangements for follower notices the ability to claim the tax based on other cases that might be similar to the case it is investigating or discussing. If it does so, it can claim the payment from the individual based on that follower notice.
Ian Swales
On a quick point of clarification, the retrospective application that most people are concerned about is that which was applied in the Finance Act 2008, which was enacted by the previous Government.
Michael Connarty
I understand that the advice given to my constituent, who is a business person, came from one of the best financial advisers in Scotland. In fact, it was the financial adviser who wrote to Equitable Life long before anyone realised that it was defrauding people by enhancing assets falsely, and who was the first person called to give evidence to the Treasury Committee. They have advised my constituent that the problem is, in fact, in this Bill and the performance under its terms. It might be based on a previous ability to do so, but the concept of follower notices and accelerated payment notices are, in fact, in this Bill and did not exist before.
The question is whether the provision is retrospective, because I believe that the Minister is on record—I think that it might be in writing—as saying that he does not agree with retrospective tax powers. I also understand that the Treasury Committee confirmed in a recent report that this is indeed retrospective and the Government are yet to explain what is wholly exceptional about the performance they have put in this Bill—the follower notices and the accelerated payment notices—that will justify the use of retrospective claims for taxation.
It seems to me that when someone is doing their tax planning, particularly when coming to that later period in life—quite a few Members of this House are in that age group—they look at the law at the time, take tax advice from advisers, make arrangements and do their tax planning accordingly, and that is what they think will be their future income. Those people tend not to be receiving a pension paid by someone else; they are earning their pension by their own efforts and enterprises. If that advice is taken and their tax planning goes ahead, I want the Government to assure me that they will not then be told after this Bill is passed, “You made that arrangement in 2000, but we have decided that from 2004 that that tax planning, although legal then, is not legal, so we want you to pay a substantial amount of tax back that was not in the tax arrangements then.” I think that it is only just that the Government give people an assurance that they will not come seeking to turn what was a legal tax arrangement into an illegal one and cost them a substantial amount of money.
David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con)
The hon. Gentleman is making a powerful argument. However, he should consider whether his model of an individual looking at tax approaches is the right one; many businesses look to tax advisers for advice. It is those tax advisers, who have given what is at least imperfect advice to businesses, who need to be examined more carefully.
Michael Connarty
I hope that the hon. Gentleman thinks I am a bit smarter than his question implies. If someone does something that is tax-efficient but not legal or justifiable, it is clear that the Government can say that it is illegal and they want the money back. People pay financial advisers quite a bit for good, legal, tax-efficient plans—to find ways not of cheating the system, but using it efficiently.
I might think it wrong for people to avoid tax and I might say that they should put it all in the bucket, like those in the PAYE system. The reality is, however, that tax efficiency is about people seeking to minimise their tax; that advantages people employed by their enterprise or seeking a just reward for their efforts throughout their life as an entrepreneur. I am not against that. If we want to close an avoidance loophole, we should close it. If the loophole is open and used, the Government should not be able to come back 10 years later and say, “We’ve changed our mind. Yes, it was efficient and legal, but we want money from you.”
Under this legislation, once the decision has been made, there is no appeal; someone would have to go to private litigation to fight the taxman. That is the problem. The system will not be fair, but completely and utterly repressive—designed to give all power to HMRC and the Government and none to the private individual. My constituent is 65. He has worked for a long time and employed lots of people in my constituency. He has done things legally, but on retirement he could face the prospect of being chased by HMRC under this law, the only way to fight it being to have enough money in the bank to bring private litigation.
The proposals give all power to the taxman, and that is not a correct, just or moral way to run the country. I hope the Minister will assure us that the law will not be used in such a way and that, if required, amendments will be tabled to ensure that.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)
Order. I assume that Members taking part in the Finance Bill debate are arithmetically astute, so will be able to work out as quickly as I can that, if the Minister is to have any chance of answering the many points put to him, particularly by Opposition Front Benchers, the four people wishing to speak have little more than 10 minutes left. If they take less than three minutes each, everyone will get to speak; if they take more, they will be being discourteous to each other.
Charlie Elphicke
I will endeavour to be as brief as possible, Madam Deputy Speaker.
I have often made the case against tax avoidance—international and national—in the House. I have often mentioned the behaviour of the water companies, which used the quoted eurobond exemption to further their strategies. Yet I cannot support the new clause, which is, in the words of the Labour party’s head of policy, the hon. Member for Dagenham and Rainham (Jon Cruddas), nothing less than an “instrumentalised, cynical” nugget
“of policy to chime with…focus groups and…press strategies”.
The shadow Chancellor showed that at the weekend.
The new clause would not raise £500 million. I will be interested to hear the Minister say exactly how much it would raise, as in many cases double taxation treaties could be used. When I raised the loophole in question, my case was about the debt-equity gearing ratio—a far more effective way of looking at the issue. I would be surprised if the Labour party had consulted experts beyond its own advisers. Indeed, there was a consultation on this issue in 2012. I stand to be corrected, but I do not believe the Labour party gave a response to that consultation. It simply thought, “What wheeze can we table as a new clause to plonk out there for our press strategy as our instrumentalised policy nugget?”
The new clause is highly cynical. It has been devised purely to make a case and to say, “Yes, we are on the pitch in the tax avoidance debate.” In fact, when the Labour party was in power receipts from income tax doubled but receipts from corporation tax went up by 6%. Again, we heard cynicism in the debate today with remarks about the tax gap going up by £1 billion to £35 billion. That is because the economy is growing. In reality, the percentage has fallen from 7.1% to 7%, so the tax gap has been heading in the right direction.
The Government have done a lot to make the case on this issue and to take the battle to the tax avoiders. I support the accelerated payments regime—I differ from my hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Sir Gerald Howarth) on this—because people who are subject to it know that they are engaging in a tax avoidance arrangement that is going to be under attack, and so should be prudent and keep the money to one side. If they are not doing so, they should be thinking about things rather more carefully, because they know they have entered into an arrangement that is likely to be under attack from the Revenue.
Kelvin Hopkins
It is a disgrace that while millions of ordinary people suffer the privations of wage cuts, unemployment and poverty, a rich minority is avoiding and evading taxes. I am talking about corporates and billionaires. There is indeed one law for the rich and one for the poor, the poor being the great majority of wage and salary earners. They are not necessarily poor in the specific sense, but they pay their taxes—I pay PAYE myself.
The Government’s concerns about the deficit seem hypocritical given that they have failed to collect the taxes that are owed. The estimate of the amount of uncollected tax made by HMRC and the Government is of the order of £40 billion. But estimates by others—including the Public and Commercial Services Union, the trade union that represents the workers in the tax collecting industry, the TUC and Richard Murphy, a noted tax expert I have seen speak on many occasions—put the amount at £120 billion or even more.
Even if we take the £40 billion figure, if the Government collected half of it, that would be an extra £20 billion a year, equivalent to 5p on the standard rate of income tax. I suggest that that would not just bring down the deficit but would give us plenty more to spend on the health service and on decent pay rises for public servants, who have suffered so much for so long.
As for staffing in HMRC, I have spoken out about that under previous Governments as well, not just this one, because that has been a weakness for Government efforts to challenge tax avoidance and evasion for a long period. I will tell a little anecdote. In 1997, when I first came into Parliament, I went to visit my local VAT office. The people there said that if they had more staff, they could collect more taxes. In VAT from local businesses alone, every individual tax inspector collected five times their own salary. Naturally I wrote to the then Chancellor of the Exchequer. I got an answer back from a civil servant, not from the Chancellor, which said that the Treasury wanted to make savings by cutting staff. That is utterly irrational when staff collect many times their own salary.
As I said, with VAT from local firms the amount collected is five times a staff member’s salary. When it comes to the big corporates, extra staff collect many, many times their own salary, and we should have many more tax staff. Perhaps if HMRC did not have such difficulties with staffing, it would be able to work more accurately and would not make the mistakes that have been mentioned.
We have recently seen Vodafone, which apparently owed something like £7 billion in tax, do a cosy little deal with Dave Hartnett, the then boss of HMRC, and pay £1 billion. The rest was siphoned through Luxembourg, I think—wherever it was, large amounts of money were lost from the corporates. Interestingly, Dave Hartnett, who was a public servant and should have been committed to the public interest, retired and finished up as an adviser to corporates on tax avoidance. That is unacceptable. Civil servants should be motivated by the public service ethos and be determined to collect taxes. They should not be cosying up to the corporate world.
Finally, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Oldham West and Royton (Mr Meacher) has pointed out, the 1,000 richest people in this country have seen their wealth double in the past five years from a quarter of a trillion pounds to half a trillion pounds. That is a staggering amount of money. Much of that must be to do with tax avoidance and tax evasion. If we were to collect just some of that, we would have no deficit and plenty more to spend on the health service.
Nigel Mills
I will not vote for new clause 12, and I will briefly explain why.
A year ago, we enacted the general anti-abuse rule. One argument that Mr Aaronson made when he reviewed that idea was that it would allow us to have fewer of these complicated, focused anti-avoidance rules in Finance Bills and to avoid cluttering up the tax regime with more complexity because we would be able to rely on the general rule. I look forward to seeing that, rather than another huge, thick Finance Bill next year.
Subsection (1) of new clause 12 speaks of
“tax arrangements that are abusive.”
Surely those come within the general anti-abuse rule and can therefore be challenged, even if they are technically legal. Given that, we will not need to come back and assess the three items that are set out, because they will already have been tackled and there will be no further revenue to raise.
I racked my brains and did a bit of googling to try to find methods of tax avoidance using dormant companies. I struggled to think of one, because once a dormant company does something, it ceases to be dormant and therefore cannot be used to avoid tax. If what is meant is that companies are pretending to be dormant, but are actually active and are not filing returns that they know full well are due, that is tax evasion and should be clobbered severely using the existing rules. We probably do not need to create a huge compliance burden for every innocent dormant company out there. There might be sensible reasons for maintaining those companies, such as to protect a name or previous transactions, or simply that the cost and hassle of striking them off are greater than they ought to be. That would be an unreasonable compliance burden to impose.
We should be a bit careful about the language that we use about eurobonds. I have some sympathy with the view that when they were created 40 or 50 years ago and the exemption was passed, Parliament probably did not intend for intra-group loans to be traded randomly on Channel Island stock exchanges but never actually traded, just held by the same third party throughout the period. I see the temptation to remove the exemption and it was right that the Government proposed some sensible ways of doing so two years ago. However, if the Government consult on something and look into the detail, but then decide that it would not raise as much money as they thought and that it would act as a big disincentive to investment, it is unwise to come back to it so quickly. We should learn the lessons from that and just accept that if we want the UK to be attractive to investment and the hub of the private equity industry, which many small businesses in all our constituencies benefit from, it is foolish to risk putting up the cost of borrowing for that industry and adding complexity for it by revising the rules again.
I think that the new clause is superfluous and I will not vote for it.
Mike Kane
In the few moments that I have, I want to point out that self-employment is being used by far too many employers to engage workers in the construction industry, as my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Shabana Mahmood) pointed out. According to the Union of Construction, Allied Trades and Technicians report “The Evasion Economy”, 400,000 workers are being engaged in that way. Those workers miss out on the rights that normal workers get. According to another UCATT report, “The Great Payroll Scandal”, this practice is costing the Exchequer up to £1.9 billion per annum.
When I talked to construction workers on Friday night, they spoke of the scandal of payroll companies making millions of pounds. This is a legitimised dodgy practice. The companies get workers to sign a contract to say that they are self-employed, but they work for a single employer. In any legal sense, their status would be defined as a direct employee, yet they lose all the rights that we have spoken about. It should no longer be possible for companies to instruct such construction workers to turn up on site when they want them. Construction workers need the security of employment rights and full national insurance contributions should be paid.
Mr Gauke
We have had a lively debate, and I will try to address as many of the points raised as possible in the time available.
New clause 12 seeks to have the Government produce a report on how to reduce the tax advantages arising from tax arrangements that are abusive. I agree that tax avoidance is a key issue, and the Government have made it abundantly clear that we will not stand for a minority of taxpayers continuing to seek unacceptable ways to reduce the amount of tax they pay through contrived and artificial means. That increases the tax burden on the rest of society and creates an unfair playing field for businesses.
Let me explain why I do not think that a report would be beneficial. The Government have taken strong and robust action to tackle avoidance. Since 2010 we have introduced 42 changes to tax law to close avoidance loopholes and make strategic changes to prevent and deter tax avoidance. Those measures include the introduction of a general anti-abuse rule, strengthening the disclosure of tax avoidance schemes regime, clamping down on stamp duty land tax avoidance with a new range of measures —including an annual tax on envelope dwellings—and numerous changes to business tax rules and reliefs to tackle bad behaviour, including misuse of the partnership structure and corporate loss buying.
We are going further. In the Finance Bill we are introducing new measures to put in place tougher monitoring regimes and penalties for high-risk promoters of tax avoidance schemes, and we are introducing accelerated payments and follower notice measures that will give HMRC the power to collect disputed tax bills up front, putting those who try to avoid tax on the same footing as the vast majority who pay all their tax up front.
Let me address the concerns raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Sir Gerald Howarth) and the hon. Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk (Michael Connarty). The vast majority of people pay their tax up front, but it is possible for people working through self-assessment to make use of a tax avoidance scheme and hold on to the money during the—often lengthy—period where there is a dispute. The law is the law, however, and it is the law that existed when the arrangements were made that continues to apply. We are making a change, however, to say that while there is a dispute, the money should be held by the Exchequer and not the taxpayer, just as happens in many other circumstances where there is a dispute in our tax system. This is money that the individual would have already paid if they had not entered into an avoidance scheme. When completing their self-assessment return, they would have notified HMRC that they were taking part in a tax avoidance scheme under the disclosure of tax avoidance schemes regime, and as I said, the taxpayer can continue to dispute the case and will be paid interest should they win. The rights of the individual are therefore not being restricted. Prudent taxpayers should recognise that tax avoidance carries a significant risk of not working and the tax becoming payable, and they should make plans for such an outcome.
In addition to changes in law, we have invested £1 billion in increasing HMRC’s compliance resource, which has reaped huge benefits. HMRC is ever more successful at tackling the avoidance it sees, and it has an excellent record in litigating the avoidance schemes that taxpayers choose to take to tribunal. It wins about 80% of cases, and persuades many more taxpayers to settle before the case gets that far. Between April 2010 and March 2014, it won 94 avoidances cases in tribunals and courts, and in 2013-14 alone, its 30 wins protected £2.7 billion of tax.
The Government will continue to close loopholes in tax law and introduce strategic responses to tax avoidance across the tax system. We will act robustly to respond to abuses that we see. We consult on those measures where we can, although hon. Members will understand that in certain circumstances we must act quickly to close down abuse, so consultation is not possible. A report will add nothing to the progress that we have made and continue to make. Action is more important. We have proved we are taking action to tackle tax avoidance across the board, and we will continue to do so.
In the time available I do not think I can do justice to the fairly lengthy speech on eurobonds by the hon. Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Shabana Mahmood), but the £500 million figure that she quoted, which is somehow supposed to be at risk, seems to be based on an article in a newspaper. It is not a figure we recognise. It wrongly assumes that the recipient of the interest would not be entitled to gross payment of interest and fails to take into account the fact that under the UK’s double tax treaties the tax would often be repaid anyway.
I extend again the offer that I made in March to the hon. Lady. I have been a shadow Treasury Minister and I recognise the challenges in developing policy in these areas without access to officials. I would be more than happy to meet her, with officials, to talk through some of the practical points of this issue. I think she will find that that £500 million is something of an illusion. In terms of the practical points that she raised about changing the withholding tax system, I ask her to bear in mind the double taxation treaties. Her proposals might not be as easy as she believes.
The alleged abuse of disguised employment in the construction sector is an important point. Some labour providers have created structures specifically designed to avoid tax and national insurance and gain a commercial advantage over those who play by the rules. The Government aim to put a stop to those practices in the construction sector and elsewhere through the new measures introduced in this Bill to tackle false self-employment intermediaries. They will provide a level playing field for compliant labour providers who help to facilitate the UK’s flexible labour market.
The new measures that we are introducing target structures set up to present workers as self-employed when they are really employees. This has been a growing problem in recent years and has spread from the construction industry to other sectors. That is not acceptable. Workers lose out on their rights, it creates competitive disadvantages for compliant businesses, and ultimately the taxpayer foots the bill. That is why we are acting now to stop the abuse. Intermediaries are the biggest mechanism for delivering false self-employment within the construction industry, and as I have said, the practice is spreading. Tackling employment intermediaries used to facilitate false self-employment will not only more effectively target a sizeable section of the false self-employment in construction—a point raised by the hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East (Mike Kane)—but will stop the spread of the problem to the wider economy.
We believe our proposals are the best way to tackle avoidance in that area. The previous Government consulted on proposals to tackle false self-employment in construction in 2009, which deemed all construction workers to be employed unless they fulfilled one of three criteria. In practice, that would have meant that bricklayers would need to provide their own bricks and roofers would have had to supply their own tiles to be categorised as self-employed. As set out in the consultation response document, analysis suggested that the proposals could undermine legitimate commercial practice and run the risk of capturing genuinely self-employed individuals.
A dormant company is one that is not within the charge to corporation tax at all, whereas the new clause appears to relate to companies that are within the charge but fail to file returns. That is not avoidance but evasion. HMRC uses risk-based procedures and extensive data-matching analysis to identify companies that should have filed returns but have not done so. All such companies are risk-assessed to establish whether they come within the charge to tax. Research suggests that the risk of tax loss is small. HMRC’s activity is carefully targeted, ensuring administrative burdens for compliant customers are minimised while focusing on the non-compliant.
I draw the House’s attention once more to the Government’s strong response to the threat of tax avoidance, including our unprecedented action to close loopholes and provide new tools for HMRC to tackle avoidance. The report proposed by the Opposition is unnecessary and would distract HMRC from delivering on its important work tackling avoidance. I call on the hon. Lady to withdraw the new clause.
Shabana Mahmood
I am disappointed that the Minister will not engage with the practical measures envisaged in the new clause. We have had an interesting debate, but I wish to press the new clause to a Division.
Question put, That the clause be read a Second time.
Business without Debate
Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)
With the leave of the House, we shall take motions 8 to 14 together.
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 118(6)),
Financial Services and Markets
That the draft Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 (Regulated Activities) (Green Deal) (Amendment) Order 2014, which was laid before this House on 4 June, be approved.
Social Security
That the draft Jobseeker’s Allowance (Supervised Jobsearch Pilot Scheme) Regulations 2014, which were laid before this House on 4 June, be approved.
Capital Gains Tax
That the draft Double Taxation Relief and International Tax Enforcement (Japan) Order 2014, which was laid before this House on 10 June, be approved.
That the draft Double Taxation Relief (Federal Republic of Germany) Order 2014, which was laid before this House on 10 June, be approved.
That the draft Double Taxation Relief and International Tax Enforcement (Belgium) Order 2014, which was laid before this House on 10 June, be approved.
That the draft Double Taxation Relief and International Tax Enforcement (Zambia) Order 2014, which was laid before this House on 10 June, be approved.
That the draft Double Taxation Relief and International Tax Enforcement (Iceland) Order 2014, which was laid before this House on 10 June, be approved.—(Mark Lancaster.)
Question agreed to.
delegated legislation (committees)
petition
Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)
I rise to present a petition on behalf of more than 3,000 petitioners from west Cornwall, which calls for a resilience rail service between Penzance and Paddington. It was largely precipitated because of concern about inadequate investment in that service and also, of course, because of the disruption caused to the service by the February storms in both Penzance and Dawlish. It promotes major investment in the sleeper upgrade, improved signalling and a train care centre at Long Rock in my constituency—something for which we have campaigned for a very long time and on which we expect an announcement shortly.
The first petitioner is Janet Trudgeon of Rosehill, Marazion, and the petition reads as follows:
The Petition of residents of St Ives constituency and others,
Declares that the Petitioners believe that if the Government can spend up to £50 billion on high speed rail investment to the north (HS2), the people of Cornwall should not be denied the investment necessary for a resilient rail service to Paddington.
The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to do what is necessary to make sure that the rail link from Penzance to Paddington is one that passengers can rely on.
And the Petitioners remain, etc.
[P001362]
Head and Neck Cancer
(10 years, 5 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Sir Paul Beresford (Mole Valley) (Con)
I thank my hon. Friend the Minister for coming. She is smiling slightly, because we have had this discussion on a number of occasions and it will continue, at least until I get my way, if that is at all possible over the coming years.
I must begin by declaring a short list of potential interests. I am still a part-time practising dentist—very part-time. I am also chairman of the all-party parliamentary group on dentistry and the APPG on skin, which has a link to this debate.
In an earlier debate, I focused on oral cancer and, in particular, on the causative role of the human papillomavirus. I have been trying to persuade the Minister to encourage the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation, or JCVI for short—don’t the medicos always do that?—to broaden its horizons beyond the inoculation of teenage girls against cervical cancer. The results in relation to cervical cancer are very encouraging, but the virus is key to the cause of many other cancers, and that applies predominantly to two variations of it.
In a previous debate, the Minister was very nice, and explained sweetly that I must rely on the advice of the JCVI—or, at least, that she must do so. She explained that the committee was expanding its sights. Although it was enlightening to hear that it would be examining the HPV-related effects of men having sex with men, it did not help me very much because I am looking beyond that. I think that the committee should be looking above the waist, and, more specifically, looking at the trauma of pain, suffering and death—a very horrible death—as well as at the financial costs to the NHS of the existence of the virus elsewhere in the human body. I am aware that the virus plays a part in skin cancer, but I have decided to concentrate on the head and neck.
A quick cruise through the latest papers on head and neck cancer makes for frightening reading. Despite the reduction in smoking, the number of head and neck cancer cases is rising steadily and rapidly. The stark reality is that the number of new cases is growing year on year, at a much higher rate than the experts expected. Some are talking of an epidemic. The problem is now so acute that one form of cancer which falls into the “head and neck” category, oropharyngeal cancer, is the fastest-growing cancer in Scotland, and is a significant and growing problem in the rest of the United Kingdom.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on raising this subject. In the past year in Northern Ireland, 1,218 people have been diagnosed with head and neck cancers, and 64 people die of such cancers every year. Does he think that that is because this is seen as a lesser cancer—if that is the right way in which to put it—than others which seem to catch the eye of the public? If so, does more need to be done to increase the focus on head and neck cancer?
Sir Paul Beresford
I am focusing on it, because worldwide it constitutes about 5% of cancers and causes 6% of the deaths, and because, as I think is generally accepted, in a large proportion of cases HPV is a causative agent, or the root cause. There is a way of dealing with that and I think that we ought to adopt it.
In the United Kingdom, the latest findings put the incidence of HPV at 23.5% for oral cancer, 35.6% for oropharyngeal cancer, and 24% for laryngeal squamous cell carcinomas. I have no data for skin cancer, but obviously it applies to head and neck skin. On a personal note, my brother-in-law recently died from a squamous cell carcinoma on his head, which was undiagnosed and untreated, and when it was found it was too late. Head and neck cancers are fifth in the global rankings of cancer incidence, and sixth in the global rankings of cancer deaths.
The cost of oropharyngeal cancer to our health services is enormous. A new report is due to be published following extensive research on the economic cost of head and neck cancer. The findings of the research suggest that the official estimate of the burden placed on the national health service is significantly less than the actual total. The data I have seen of the report that is coming out soon conclude that the cost of oropharyngeal cancer was approximately £115 million at 2011 prices, laryngeal cancer £96 million and oral cavity cancer £98 million. The total at 2011 costs is just under £310 million. We must add that that is almost certainly low because of under-reporting, that we have three years of inflation and, worst of all, three years of increasing numbers of cases. I am not sure, but I suspect that that does not include peripheral rehabilitation costs such as physiotherapy and speech therapy and some cosmetic dentistry in appropriate cases, nor does it cover the unquantifiable cost to quality of life, with the pain and disfigurement that much head and neck cancers produce, and the treatment that is required peripherally for patients.
Perhaps what is most surprising—I have only just discovered this—is that these cancers are more prevalent in men than women at a ratio of approximately two to one. It is common knowledge that the NHS is under immense financial pressure. In fact, demand for access to the NHS is at unprecedented levels. The Government have taken commendable steps towards ensuring that the health service is protected from spending cuts, which have been necessary in so many other areas, but that does not mean budgets have not come under pressure and resources have not been stretched. It is therefore a matter of the very gravest concern that the full economic burden of head and neck cancer, and by extension HPV, is not taken into account. It should be. The whole of the problem of HPV and the way it infects different parts of the body should be addressed by the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation.
Australia has a policy of vaccination of both males and females. That is producing what is called a herd immunity. Although I am specifically looking at head and neck, with the role of the HPV virus, it is quite clear that there could be a dramatic reduction in a number of cancers, including head and neck cancer, over time with gender-neutral vaccination. Clearly, men currently face a significantly greater, and rising, risk of HPV-associated head and neck cancers.
I therefore again put it to the Minister that it is not fair, ethical or socially responsible to have a public health policy that leaves 50% of the population vulnerable to infection. Such vaccination, combined with early detection and action on smoking and heavy drinking of alcohol, could save a huge number of lives just as we are facing a dramatic increase in head and neck cancer. I hope that the Minister will be able to persuade the JCVI to broaden its horizons and to look at the human suffering, as well as the total costs of HPV to our national health service.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Jane Ellison)
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Mole Valley (Sir Paul Beresford) on securing this debate on this important issue and on continuing to champion it. It shows Parliament at its best when Members bring to bear here the expertise and insight they have acquired outside this place, and that is certainly what my hon. Friend is doing and I commend him on it.
Let me set the scene before dealing with some of my hon. Friend’s specific concerns. As he said, we have debated this issue before and I am anxious to try to keep him up to date with any developments as well as to make sure the House has a general picture of what we are doing in this area.
The Government want England to lead the world in tackling cancer. That is why our 2011 cancer outcomes strategy set the ambition to save a further 5,000 lives a year from cancer by 2014-15, including head and neck cancer. As my hon. Friend rightly said, the incidence of head and neck cancer has been increasing since the 1970s, with over 6,500 people in England diagnosed with oral cancer alone in 2012. That is due to the prevalence of the major risk factors for oral cancer, such as heavy alcohol consumption and smoking. Chewing betel quid, which is more common among south-east Asian communities, is also a risk factor for oral cancer and that may have contributed to the trend. As the House knows, we have major programmes of work in place to tackle smoking and excessive alcohol consumption —and it is heartening that, although there is a long way to go yet, we did see smoking prevalence rates dip below 20% for the first time in England in the most recent figures.
There is now growing evidence that HPV, already linked to the development of nearly all cervical cancer in women, is also a major risk factor for oral cancer. That is not disputed. The types of HPV that are found in the mouth are almost entirely sexually transmitted, and they have been associated with about a quarter of head and neck cancers. So if we can reduce the incidence of HPV in females through a high uptake of the national vaccination programme, a reduction of other HPV-associated cancers in females and males is likely to follow. I note, however, that my hon. Friend feels that that herd immunity is not going far enough and there is further to go. It is worth restating that the aim of the current HPV vaccination programme is to prevent cervical cancer related to HPV infection—that is where it started. When introducing the vaccine in 2008 the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation, which advises the Government on all immunisation matters, did not recommend HPV vaccination for boys because the reasoning was that once 80% coverage among girls had been achieved there would be little benefit in vaccinating boys to prevent cervical cancer in girls.
Judged by any standard, the HPV immunisation programme has been very successful. More than 7.8 million doses have been given so far in the UK since 2008, and we have among the highest rates of HPV vaccine coverage achieved in the world. I encourage hon. Members to look at their own local statistics, because although we achieve a very high average vaccination rate, there is some local variation. That matter is worth pursuing, particularly with schools, as this vaccine is delivered in schools almost universally. Some 86% of girls who are eligible for routine vaccination in England in the 2012-13 academic year have completed the three-dose course and 90% have received at least two doses, but in some schools the rates are lower and we want to get those up.
There is an increasing evidence base on the association between the HPV infection and oral, throat, anal and penile cancers, and on the impact of HPV vaccination on those infections. As a result, the JCVI issued a call for evidence in August 2012 to inform a review of HPV vaccination. The JCVI is very much aware of the issues concerning HPV vaccination for men who have sex with men, and at its October 2013 meeting recognised that the current immunisation programme may be of little benefit to those men and agreed to create an HPV sub-committee to consider the evidence for extending that vaccination programme. The sub-committee will aim to identify and evaluate the full range of options.
Sir Paul Beresford
The Minister has just talked about extending the programme, but to what or to whom?
Jane Ellison
On to my next paragraph. The sub-committee will look to identify and evaluate the full range of options for extending the protection from HPV infection to men who have sex with men, including by vaccinating them, and the potential extension of the programme to include adolescent boys. That deals with the point my hon. Friend was making. The JCVI HPV sub-committee—I apologise for all the acronyms but they are inevitable in a health debate—met for the first time on 20 January 2014 to review the available evidence on the impact and cost-effectiveness of potential extensions to the HPV programme. Any recommendation by the JCVI must be based on cost-effectiveness; there is a particular formula it uses to look at that within our health economy. The sub-committee will report its findings to the JCVI following consideration of a yet to be completed study by Public Health England into the cost-effectiveness of extending the HPV vaccination in both those directions. I hope I can give my hon. Friend some reassurance by confirming that the study will consider the impact of vaccination against penile, anal and oropharyngeal—head and neck—cancers and genital warts. Those things definitely form part of the studies that will be made and of the calculation about cost-effectiveness. There is no evidence to suggest that the current HPV vaccines will offer protection against skin cancer—I do not know whether he wishes to develop things further in that area, but we are aware of no evidence that makes that link.
The decision on the vaccination of adolescent boys requires the development of complex models to determine whether or not it would be cost-effective. Obviously, this would mean extending an already big programme to a much larger group. These models may identify a need to generate additional evidence, and therefore a decision on vaccination of adolescent males is not likely before 2015 at the earliest.
Sir Paul Beresford
One difficulty with models is that they take absolutely no account of the unpleasantness of the disease and the damage it does. Head and neck cancer is one of the most frightful conditions to deal with and to live with.
Jane Ellison
My hon. Friend makes a good point, but I will have to come back to him on it. I will not speculate at the Dispatch Box. Many factors go into these calculations, but I will make inquiries with regard to other JCVI decisions. I think that the severity of effect is taken into account and is part of the calculation, but I will clarify that and come back to the hon. Gentleman. None the less, he is right to remind the House of that matter.
The evidence to support a decision on a selective programme to target men who have sex with men may become available at the end of this year, which is earlier than expected. Obviously, the Department will consider carefully the advice from JCVI once the Committee has completed its assessment. As that is all in the future, it is worth talking about some of the things that we have at our disposal now in terms of early diagnosis. In addition to taking steps to tackle unhealthy lifestyle factors and the virus linked to head and neck cancer, we have also set out, through the mandate to NHS England, a clear ambition for the NHS to improve outcomes for all people with cancer.
One of the most common symptoms of oral cancer is a persistent sore or lump on the lip or in the mouth, so there is an opportunity for both doctors and dentists to play a role in supporting earlier diagnosis.
Since 2005, the referral guidelines for suspected cancer, published by the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence, has supported GPs to identify symptoms of oral cancer and urgently refer patients. The National Institute for Health and Care Excellence is currently updating that guidance to ensure that it reflects the latest available evidence.
Sir Paul Beresford
With great respect, on the question of the sore or the ulcer, the problem with cancer is that it is not sore until it is too late.
Jane Ellison
I will reflect on that point. I do not pretend to have the hon. Gentleman’s professional expertise. He has corrected the record, if he feels that it needs correcting. I hope that he will not disagree with me when I say that dentists have a key role to play in the early detection of oral cancer.
Jane Ellison
All dentists are trained as undergraduates to look for such signs during routine check-ups and to pay close attention to patients’ self-reported history of smoking and drinking—both key risk factors. A new patient pathway, currently being piloted in 94 practices, includes an oral health assessment, which requires dentists to examine the soft tissue of the mouth; assess a patient’s risk in relation to oral cancer; and offer advice on lifestyle changes.
I am also pleased to say that the General Dental Council has confirmed that improving early detection of oral cancer is to be included as a recommended topic in its continuing professional development scheme.
The hon. Gentleman will also be aware that the Department has run a series of “Be Clear on Cancer” campaigns, and we keep all forms of cancer under review to see whether they might be considered within that campaign. As he made the case that oral cancers and head and neck cancer are becoming more common, they too will be kept under review.
As I have mentioned in previous debates, the NICE improving outcomes guidance in head and neck cancer, which was published in 2004, provides advice on the organisation of health care for adults with those cancers. Head and neck cancer has also been referred to NICE as a topic for quality standard development.
The NICE guidance has informed the development of NHS England's service specification for head and neck cancer, which was published last summer. This clearly sets out what NHS England expects to be in place for providers to offer evidence-based, safe and effective services.
Of particular relevance to patients with oral cancer is the £23 million radiotherapy innovation fund, which supports the radiotherapy centres across England to deliver increased levels of intensity-modulated radiotherapy. That is a more precise form of radiotherapy, which reduces the risk of patients with oral cancers suffering from a permanent dryness of the mouth as a result of treatment.
Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD)
The hon. Lady refers to innovative radiotherapy and I wonder whether she is aware of how much work is being done on the indications suggested by my hon. Friend the Member for Mole Valley (Sir Paul Beresford)—I congratulate him on this debate. I also wonder whether NHS England does not recognise that this type of radiotherapy can be used for anything except lung cancer.
Jane Ellison
I know that my hon. Friend has ongoing concerns in some of these areas and I will certainly draw her comments to the attention of NHS England and respond to her after the debate, if that is acceptable.
Since October 2010, the cancer drugs fund has helped more than 50,000 cancer patients in England and cetuximab is available through the fund for the first-line treatment of advanced head and neck cancer when certain clinical criteria are met.
I would like to reassure my hon. Friend the Member for Mole Valley that the National Institute for Health Research clinical research network is recruiting patients to 34 studies of head and neck cancer, of which three are focused on HPV-associated cancer. The NIHR also funds 14 experimental cancer medicine centres across England with joint funding from Cancer Research UK. Two of those centres have a disease focus on oral cancer.
I should make it clear, as I like to in every debate that we have on any health condition, that the NIHR welcomes funding applications for research into any aspect of human health, including head and neck cancer. I would certainly encourage my hon. Friend to encourage those that he knows in research circles to come forward with projects for which they might like to seek funding.
I thank my hon. Friend once again for securing today’s debate. I hope that the discussion, although it has covered some familiar ground for him, has been helpful in providing reassurance of our commitment to reduce the incidence of head and neck cancer and to improve the outcomes for those diagnosed with the disease. In particular, I thank him for championing the cause as these cancers are less well-known and for that reason they particularly benefit from parliamentary attention of this sort. I will undertake to keep him fully informed, as I hope that I have to date, as the matter and the JCVI’s considerations progress. I will also undertake to draw the attention of the JCVI to the debate and to my hon. Friend’s speech in particular.
Question put and agreed to.