Oral Answers to Questions
Hilary Benn Excerpts(3 weeks, 4 days ago)
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Jim Allister (North Antrim) (TUV)
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Hilary Benn)
The statutory instrument for the Northern Ireland pet travel scheme has now been laid. The scheme significantly reduces the requirements associated with the original Northern Ireland protocol and provides a stable and long-term arrangement for those travelling with their pets within the UK.
Jim Allister
When the grip of EU law controls even the movement of our pets within the United Kingdom, is it not clear that we have gone far too far in regarding Northern Ireland as EU territory? For that is the reason for this absurd regulation, which, at the behest of the EU, imposes pet passports if a person wants to bring their pet from GB to Northern Ireland. There is no point the Secretary of State saying that it could have been worse; they should not exist at all. When will this Government get the EU off our backs and liberate the people of Northern Ireland and our pets from EU diktat?
Hilary Benn
As I hope the hon. Gentleman is aware, Northern Ireland pet owners will not face any checks and will not be required to hold a pet travel document. In discussing this matter, there is an obligation on him and all of us to ensure that we present the facts, so that people are not unnecessarily troubled.
David Smith (North Northumberland) (Lab)
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Hilary Benn)
Where were we, Mr Speaker?
I welcome the publication of the Northern Ireland Executive’s budget sustainability plan—a positive and necessary step towards sustainable public finances—and the Chief Secretary to the Treasury has agreed with the Northern Ireland Finance Minister that discussions over a long-term fiscal framework for Northern Ireland can now begin.
Dr Sullivan
Does the Secretary of State agree that to ensure sustainable finances the Northern Ireland Executive need to take steps to reform the NHS and public services?
Hilary Benn
I share my hon. Friend’s view. As the House will be aware, people in Northern Ireland face the longest waiting lists in the whole United Kingdom, and all Governments, including the Northern Ireland Executive, have to balance the money coming in and the funds that they can raise, and take decisions about public service reform. I am very encouraged by the recent event organised by the Northern Ireland Health Minister, which Dr Bengoa, who produced a report on reform in Northern Ireland, returned to Northern Ireland to attend, because there is now a commitment to take forward that process.
Deirdre Costigan
What impact does the Secretary of State think that the UK leaving the European convention on human rights would have on the sustainability of Northern Ireland’s finances and devolved government?
Hilary Benn
Given that the European convention on human rights is one of the foundations of the Good Friday agreement, I am frankly astonished that anyone who aspires to lead His Majesty’s Opposition should suggest that our country should leave the ECHR. It would be utterly irresponsible.
David Smith
I commend all those who worked to re-establish devolved government earlier this year at Stormont. It is now vital that the Northern Ireland Executive ensure that they have sustainable finances. Does the Secretary of State agree that revenue raising by the Northern Ireland Executive has an important part to play in delivering financial sustainability and stability to Northern Ireland?
Hilary Benn
I do. Indeed, raising £113 million was part of the deal that the last Government put in place as part of the £3.3 billion package that led to the restoration—well, that followed the restoration of the Executive. That includes delivering a balanced budget in the current year, and I am very encouraged by the statements of the Northern Ireland Finance Minister in that regard.
Carla Lockhart (Upper Bann) (DUP)
The budget sustainability plan is commendable, but does the Secretary of State agree that our public services are in crisis? Our roads are crumbling, we have the longest health waiting lists in the whole of the UK, and our schools need investment. Northern Ireland needs to be in receipt of a fair long-term funding allocation, based on Treasury needs. Will he confirm to the House that he is making the case for that to the Treasury for the people of Northern Ireland?
Hilary Benn
Northern Ireland’s greater spending needs are recognised. The Northern Ireland Fiscal Council was established to answer the question of what that additional funding should be, and it came to the conclusion that the figure should be 124%, which will be met this year in respect of the budget. The interim fiscal framework also said that if further credible sources come along suggesting that the figure should be different, the Government would undertake to look at that. But nothing takes away from the Executive’s responsibility to manage the budget that they have, and to take decisions, including on reform.
Alex Easton (North Down) (Ind)
Does the Secretary of State agree that the budget resources for the Northern Ireland Justice Minister are extremely short and that we are not able to recruit enough Police Service of Northern Ireland officers, and has he had any discussions with the Justice Minister about resolving that problem?
Hilary Benn
As the hon. Member will be aware, decisions about the allocation of the Northern Ireland budget rest with the Northern Ireland Executive. Funds go to the Justice Minister, who then decides principally how much to pass on to the policing board for policing costs and how much to deal with the justice system and the prisons, which are also under pressure. I recognise the pressure that PSNI officers face, not least because I met a number of those who were injured in the recent disorder.
Alex Burghart (Brentwood and Ongar) (Con)
It is very generous of you to call me again, Mr Speaker. The Executive’s draft programme for government acknowledges that policing numbers in Northern Ireland are at an all-time low, a situation that the chief constable has described as dangerous. The draft programme commits to increasing numbers in line with New Decade, New Approach. Is the Secretary of State convinced that the budget sustainability plan is sufficient to achieve that aim?
Hilary Benn
The hon. Gentleman raises an important point, as we discussed just a moment ago. I recognise the pressures on the PSNI, but it falls to the Executive to decide how much to allocate, from the funds available to them, to policing and other public services in Northern Ireland. If they wish to allocate more, they are in a position to do so, but it involves making a choice.
Alex Burghart
The Secretary of State is of course right that policing in Northern Ireland is a devolved matter, but national security is not. If we look at policing numbers right now, which are at an all-time low, we are reminded that his party’s manifesto made explicit commitments to improving public services in Northern Ireland. Will the Government commit to ensuring that policing in Northern Ireland is sufficient to keep the people of Northern Ireland safe and maintain national security, and to protecting the additional security funding of £32 million a year that comes direct from His Majesty’s Treasury?
Hilary Benn
On the latter point, the hon. Gentleman just has to wait a week to see what the Budget produces. I simply say to him that the PSNI, the security services and others do an outstanding job in protecting the people of Northern Ireland from terrorist threats, and we should all support them in that endeavour.
Dr Al Pinkerton (Surrey Heath) (LD)
The budget sustainability plan highlights that Northern Ireland has been systemically underfunded, with the fiscal council estimating an annual shortfall of between £300 million and £400 million since 2022. Meanwhile, the Northern Ireland Executive reported a £559 million overspend between 2022 and 2024. What measures are the Government taking to address Northern Ireland’s immediate budgetary pressures, ensure long-term financial stability and equitable funding, and, crucially, guarantee sustainable public services?
Hilary Benn
In addition to the £3.3 billion package that followed the restoration of the Executive, the Executive gained £185 million in July when the main estimates were published. In order to avoid having to repay the debt that the hon. Member refers to, they have to put their finances on a sustainable path, deliver a balanced budget, and raise the additional £130 million revenue to which they committed when the deal was done. The fiscal council’s view is that 124% is the right funding.
Josh Newbury (Cannock Chase) (Lab)
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Hilary Benn)
The Government are committed to implementing the Windsor framework in good faith, and to protecting Northern Ireland’s place in the UK internal market. We continue to take forward policies set out in “Safeguarding the Union”, including most recently the establishment of the independent monitoring panel and the publication of guidance under section 46 of the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020.
Robin Swann (South Antrim) (UUP)
There is some concern regarding the supply of medicines to Northern Ireland. The British Generic Manufacturers Association says that there is an “absurd situation” in which there will be shortages due to the bureaucracy of the “UK only” labelling required for medicines going into Northern Ireland. The Government say that they are relaxed that the deadline will be met. Is the Secretary of State relaxed about the continued supply of medicines coming into Northern Ireland?
Hilary Benn
It is really important that the medicines that are required continue to be supplied. The industry has had quite a period in which to make arrangements to ensure that the labelling rules are met. I hope that, in the time available, those companies that have not done so will do so.
Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Hilary Benn)
Having carefully considered the results of the consultation with industry, the Government decided not to proceed with the introduction of mandatory “Not for EU” labelling in Great Britian from 1 October 2024. Instead, we will take the powers necessary to apply “Not for EU” labelling in the future, if that is required to secure supplies in Northern Ireland.
Sammy Wilson
The result of the Northern Ireland protocol, signed by the previous Government, has been to create an economic border between Northern Ireland and Great Britain, and the imposition of EU law, which has created a problem for the supply of goods to Northern Ireland. When in opposition, Labour supported the idea of food labelling as a way of avoiding an interruption in the supply of food goods from GB to Northern Ireland, so why have the Government reneged on that promise, and what will be the trigger for its imposition if needed?
Hilary Benn
The consultation on UK-wide labelling led the industry to say that such labelling would impose huge costs on industry, and therefore on consumers, through raised goods prices. The aim is to ensure that goods are not delisted in Northern Ireland. That is why we are taking a power to ensure that if there is any evidence of that happening, the labelling requirements set out in “Safeguarding the Union” can be applied, including on individual products on a sectoral basis.
Mr Speaker
I did not come back to Josh Newbury after Question 5, so he will ask his supplementary question now.
Josh Newbury (Cannock Chase) (Lab)
Businesses in my constituency tell me that they face increased red tape and costs when importing from or exporting to Northern Ireland. Can the Secretary of State confirm that he is committed to unfettered access for goods moving from Northern Ireland to Great Britian?
Hilary Benn
I certainly can confirm that, and it is set out in the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020.
Claire Hanna (Belfast South and Mid Down) (SDLP)
David Davis (Goole and Pocklington) (Con)
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Hilary Benn)
I meet regularly with the Chief Constable and his team to discuss a range of issues. While the Chief Constable has operational independence, the Investigatory Powers Commissioner’s Office provides oversight of those powers to ensure that their use is necessary, proportionate and in accordance with the law.
David Davis
At a recent hearing of the Investigatory Powers Tribunal, it became apparent that the Northern Ireland police force had been caught surveilling journalists’ telephones on the basis that they had received secret documents from whistleblowers. The reason for the secrecy of those documents was to cover up the embarrassment of the Royal Ulster Constabulary about its handling of the Loughinisland massacre. Will the Secretary of State meet me to discuss the future use of surveillance powers by the Northern Ireland police?
Hilary Benn
I am indeed aware of the background to this case. The original search warrants were quashed and the police investigation was discontinued. As the right hon. Gentleman knows, the Investigatory Powers Tribunal is currently looking at this case, and it would not be appropriate for me to comment while that is ongoing. The Chief Constable has set up the McCullough review to look at the wider issue, and the right hon. Gentleman may well wish to make representations to that review.
Northern Ireland City Deals
Hilary Benn Excerpts(1 month, 1 week ago)
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Alex Burghart (Brentwood and Ongar) (Con)
(Urgent Question): To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the Northern Ireland city deals.
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Hilary Benn)
As the Chancellor set out in July, the Government have inherited a £22 billion black hole in the public finances. As a result, the Treasury is having to consider a range of measures to deal with this significant problem. Last month, the Treasury informed the Northern Ireland Department of Finance that the UK Government’s contributions to the Mid South West deal and the Causeway Coast and Glens deal would now be considered as part of the spending review. The Belfast regional city deal and the Derry/Londonderry and Strabane city deal are unaffected and proceeding as planned. Since the announcement of the pause on those two deals, I have met with the First Minister, the Deputy First Minister, the Chief Secretary to the Treasury and the Northern Ireland Finance Minister. I will also be meeting the chief executives of those two deals shortly.
Everyone in Northern Ireland understands the importance of the city deals to economic growth and encouraging investment, and this Government are committed to working with the Northern Ireland Executive and businesses to make the most of the huge economic opportunities that now lie ahead. That is shown by the progress being made on the Belfast region city deal and the Derry/Londonderry and Strabane city deal. I attended the Derry/Londonderry and Strabane city deal signing on 18 September. The UK Government’s £105 million investment will help to progress transformative innovation, digital and health projects, which will build on the region’s well-established research excellence. The Chancellor will set out the results of the first phase of the spending review on 30 October, which will include an update on the two outstanding city deals.
Alex Burghart
As the House will know, on the evening of Friday 13 September—the day after we went into recess—the Government took it upon themselves to make a number of announcements affecting Northern Ireland: the cancellation of the Casement Park project; the decision that Sean Brown’s family will not be given a public inquiry into his murder; and the subject of this urgent question, the pausing of four Northern Ireland city deals. It is quite something to instantaneously unite all the political parties in Northern Ireland, but that was the feat achieved by the Government on the evening of Friday the 13th.
The House will be aware of how crucial the city deals are, providing significant investment to boost economic growth, create jobs and enhance infrastructure and bringing together Westminster, Belfast, local councils and private investment. We are pleased that the following day, after considerable confusion, the Government U-turned and announced that the Belfast region city deal and the Derry and Strabane city deal would go ahead, but the other two regional growth deals—the Causeway Coast and Glens deal and the Mid South West deal—now sit in limbo.
Critically, those deals cover areas that have not had the same levels of investment in recent years as big cities. One need only look at the empty shops in Enniskillen and Armagh to understand that these deals are badly needed. Can the Secretary of State tell the House why was the decision to pause taken at such a time and why was it announced in such a way? Following that announcement, why was there then a U-turn on two of the deals but not the other two? What criteria were used to make that decision?
The Secretary of State has referred to money. He knows that the so-called black hole, for which the Government have provided no breakdown, is partially of Labour’s making, given the above-inflation pay rise that it has chosen to award to the unions. He will know that the money involved is, in the world of the Exchequer, not that significant and, crucially, will deliver major returns to Northern Ireland and to the UK.
I ask the Secretary of State for two things. The first is an apology for how the matter was handled; I know he would not have wanted it to happen in the way it did, but someone should take responsibility for how the House and the people of Northern Ireland have been treated. The second is that, in negotiating with the Treasury in the run-up to the Budget, he will be the lead advocate for un-pausing those city deals.
Hilary Benn
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his response. On the matter of Casement Park, since he raised it, I will say that we took the decision for the reason we set out, and I think it is one that he supports. On the question of Sean Brown, I set out in my letter to the family why I had reached the conclusion that I did.
I would just correct the hon. Gentleman: the Belfast city deal was never affected at all—it is roaring ahead and is a great success. In the case of Derry, I was pleased to attend the signing of the deal, which will now progress to its next stage.
I would also simply say to the hon. Gentleman that the public finances inheritance the last Government left us—[Interruption.] Well, the last Government made a load of promises but never identified where the money to pay for them would come from, and then they were turfed out and left this Government to deal with the problem. That is the reason for the situation with these two city deals. He can rest assured that I, as Secretary of State, will continue to make the case for the two city deals, which is why I said in my opening answer to him that everybody in Northern Ireland, including me, understands their importance, and I will continue to make that case. But in those circumstances, the Chancellor has found it necessary to look at a whole range of commitments that were made by the last Government for which no funding had been identified, and the fault for that does not lie with us, and if any apologies are required, a belated apology from the other side for the mess they left us would be much appreciated.
Tonia Antoniazzi (Gower) (Lab)
Cities and towns in Northern Ireland have already missed out on levelling-up funding under the previous Government, as I saw at first hand as shadow Minister, so the uncertainty regarding the city deals has been quite a hard hit on the people in Northern Ireland. I seek further reassurances from the Secretary of State that the people of Northern Ireland will not be overlooked in the Budget.
Hilary Benn
I absolutely recognise the uncertainty that this has created and, as I have indicated, I will be meeting the chief executives of the two deals very shortly. Given the uncertainty while we await the outcome of the first phase of the spending review, the particular problem that they face is that a lot of effort goes into progressing these deals with the private partners, because the money comes from the Government and from the Northern Ireland Executive in the form of match funding, and then other partners, including the local councils, and they do find themselves in a difficult position— I will not hide from that.
The only other thing I would say is that those two deals are much further back in the process than those for Belfast and Derry; for the Causeway Coast and Glens deal the heads of terms had been signed in April of this year, and for the Mid South West deal the terms had yet to be signed—I think they were due last month. Then there is a further process under which the programme of the deal itself is developed to then get to the stage that Derry reached on 18 September, when the financial agreement is signed and then the business case and the projects are unlocked. So I recognise that it is difficult and, as I have already indicated to the councils, I will continue to argue for the cause of these deals.
Hilary Benn
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, whom I welcome to his post—this is, I think, the first time we have faced each other. He makes a fair point about the areas covered by the two deals that have been paused, and the contrast between them and Derry and Strabane, and Belfast. It is important that, in the end, we see economic growth right across Northern Ireland, so I do not dissent from his proposition, but the reason we are in this difficulty is the legacy that this Government have found. Any responsible Chancellor must, in the circumstances, find a way of straightening out the public finances, which were left to us in a really bad state.
Dame Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)
My right hon. Friend is not the sort of person who would make this announcement unless there were huge pressure to do so, but I am aware that pausing a project, especially when people are in post, is not completely cost-free. Will he reassure the House and people in Northern Ireland that there will be some way of maintaining a degree of momentum on the projects that have been paused? If he could give us any costings on that, it would be helpful.
Hilary Benn
My hon. Friend makes an important point. The House may have seen that yesterday, the Northern Ireland Executive—whose funding is secure because of the deal that was offered, including the financial deal that was part of the restoration of the institution, which the whole House welcomes—announced that they are proceeding with their share of the contribution, which I hope will offer some comfort to those in the two city deal areas who are working out what this means. It is important that clarity on the future is delivered as quickly as possible, which is why I set out that we will learn more on 30 October.
Sir Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con)
May I speak up for the city deals, which have been subject to a significant amount of work in communities across Northern Ireland? The city deals were reviewed earlier in the year under the previous Government, at the time of the “Safeguarding the Union” agreement, and the decisions made then were part of that deal. The Secretary of State is making representations on the deals, but I urge him to bear in mind that this was discussed earlier in the year and was part of the overall agreement made to get Stormont back up and running.
Hilary Benn
I absolutely take the right hon. Gentleman’s point, given his long experience in these matters and the role that he and others have played in assisting with the restoration of the institution, but I would very gently observe that if the matter was reviewed then, what was decided did not quite make its way into the fiscal inheritance that we have found ourselves left with. That fiscal inheritance—rather than a lack of support for the deals; I think the whole House supports them—is the cause of the problem.
Claire Hanna (Belfast South and Mid Down) (SDLP)
City deals are a serious tool for economic growth. That is why the Social Democratic and Labour party initially proposed them, and why we continue to be their champion. They support skills and employability, create decent jobs and, crucially, leverage private and foreign direct investment, driving much-needed regeneration in infrastructure in parts of Northern Ireland that have been overlooked. I am pleased that the Government are honouring their commitments to Belfast and Derry, but they should know that the decision, and its announcement on a Friday night, caused very serious frustration and a loss of public trust in Northern Ireland—although the Tories still have a thing or two to teach about uniting the parties in revulsion at announcements. Will the Secretary of State clarify the reasons for the pause in the Causeway Coast and Glens and Mid South West region deals, and can he assure us that he will be a champion for the deals with the Treasury?
Hilary Benn
I will indeed be that champion. May I take this opportunity to congratulate my hon. Friend on assuming the leadership of her party? We all wish her well in that endeavour. I also express our appreciation of the former leader of the SDLP, my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle (Colum Eastwood), who is sat next to her. Let us be frank: the truth is that when bad news is forced on the Government, it is unwelcome, whenever it is announced.
Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP)
The Secretary of State will know that city deals were talked of for a long time, but it was in 2017 that the Democratic Unionist party got a commitment from Government—a commitment that would not just impact us but be of benefit to everyone in Northern Ireland, creating opportunities for growth in cities and regions throughout Northern Ireland in a phased, programmed, sensible and strategic way. The decision to pause both the Causeway Coast and Glens and the Mid South West region deals was unnecessary, and I think the Secretary of State accepts that. Given that no arrangements were in place to agree the necessary financial requirements, there was no need to pause the deals because of a lack of finance.
As I think the Secretary of State acknowledges, this decision places in jeopardy the matched funding from private investors, as well as the ability to proceed with the food and drug development centre in Coleraine, the Enniskillen bypass, and myriad other important and strategically significant proposals. As we wait until 30 October, it would inject confidence if this Government were to say that they recognise the importance and value of city deals; are determined to deliver on these aspirations, which will be key regional economic drivers in Northern Ireland; and recognise, as I think the Secretary of State does, that pausing these proposals was foolish.
Hilary Benn
I do not agree with the right hon. Gentleman’s last proposition. As I have already indicated to the House, given the fiscal inheritance, the prudent thing is for the Government to say, “We need to look at a range of things in the round.” I entirely recognise that this decision is unwelcome to many people. The best thing we can do is give certainty as quickly as possible, which would assist, but I entirely understand the practical difficulties that this decision creates in the meantime. I will learn more about that when I meet the chief executives of the deal areas.
The House is united, though, on our shared desire to maximise economic growth in Northern Ireland. This week, we have had a really good example of that with the announcement of the very significant order that has gone to Wrightbus. This is a company that nearly went bust; then investment came in, and it is now helping to deliver the bus transportation of the future from a factory that I and many other Members have had the chance to visit. There are a lot of good things happening in Northern Ireland, and we need to build on them.
Harpreet Uppal (Huddersfield) (Lab)
What representations has the Secretary of State made to the Treasury about the continuation of these two city deals?
Hilary Benn
As I am sure my hon. Friend understands, anyone holding my office, including me, will argue the corner of Northern Ireland. I will continue to do so.
Dame Karen Bradley (Staffordshire Moorlands) (Con)
As the Secretary of State who secured funding from the Treasury for the first two deals—the Belfast city deal and the Derry/Londonderry and Strabane deal—I am very pleased that they are going ahead, but I have concerns, because I remember the impact that that announcement had on business confidence across Northern Ireland. What discussions has the Secretary of State had with businesses involved in the private sector element of these deals, to make sure they know that there is a commitment to them?
Hilary Benn
The right hon. Member is very generous and kind to me, but I cannot claim credit for the Belfast city deal—it was unaffected by the announcement that the Treasury made—and the signing of the full financial deal for the Derry and Strabane city deal was scheduled anyway. After clarification, that deal is going ahead, but when I meet the chief executives shortly, I hope to learn more about the point she raised about the practical impact. It is important that we understand the impact; that will inform the representations that are made.
Colum Eastwood (Foyle) (SDLP)
It seems to me that these questions would be better directed at the Treasury, because that is where the decision was made. I thank the Secretary of State for the work he did over the weekend after the 17th to secure the much-needed Derry city deal. He has said that there will be an update in the Budget about the other two deals that have been paused. Can he confirm whether that will be an update or a decision?
Hilary Benn
Although my hon. Friend encourages me to, I will not speak for the Chancellor. She will tell us what is in the Budget when she stands up on 30 October.
Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)
The Secretary of State will remember that when he and I were at the signing of the Londonderry deal in September, I lobbied him strongly to get the other two deals over the line. He has outlined the meetings he has held, but given what he has just said about not meeting and talking with the Chancellor about this, will he be meeting the Prime Minister? He has met other people, and we need to get these deals up and running—over the line—to get much-needed investment into areas such as mine and the Mid South West.
Hilary Benn
I very much enjoyed seeing the hon. Gentleman at the signing of the Derry/Londonderry and Strabane city deal—it was a great event. It is the responsibility of all of us in the House who have the interests of these two deals at heart to make representations to everyone who can influence the final decision.
Adam Jogee (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Lab)
The Secretary of State has talked about his engagement. Local authorities have a really important role to play in stimulating and facilitating growth, so can he keep local authorities in mind as he seeks to keep engaging, and as he ultimately gets us the solution that people want?
Hilary Benn
I certainly will do that, which is precisely why my next meeting on this matter will be with the chief executives of the two deal areas. They will no doubt tell me about the challenges they face at the moment, but it is the partnership that makes these deals so successful, as Belfast and Derry/Londonderry and Strabane demonstrate. By bringing together the United Kingdom, the Northern Ireland Executive, the local authorities and private investors, we get a synergy that results in extraordinary things.
Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)
I assume that the Secretary of State has done an impact assessment on the uncertainty costs of this decision, and will know how it will impact growth in Northern Ireland in particular. If so, can he publish that impact assessment? Secondly, I assume that the improved futures funding in Northern Ireland is unaffected by this decision. Can he confirm that, please?
Hilary Benn
I am not aware of an impact assessment that has been done. At the end of July, the Chancellor announced all the things that she would have to look at in dealing with the very adverse fiscal inheritance from the previous Government. I apologise to the right hon. Gentleman, but I did not hear what he was referring to in the second part of his question.
Robin Swann (South Antrim) (UUP)
The Chair of the Northern Ireland Committee, the hon. Member for Gower (Tonia Antoniazzi), referred to levelling-up funds. Is the Secretary of State aware that commitments to businesses from those funds have also been paused in Northern Ireland? In particular, Belfast International airport in my constituency was looking forward to £2.3 million from levelling-up funds, and was only told a fortnight ago that the funding was now on hold. It is not only the city deals; levelling-up funds are affected by this decision.
Hilary Benn
The hon. Gentleman is right: a number of things have been paused. I can think of a levelling-up project in my constituency that has been paused as a result of our fiscal inheritance. That is what the Treasury is having to deal with.
Simon Hoare (North Dorset) (Con)
As the Secretary of State knows, one of the unsung and often undervalued benefits of city deals is that they underpin the argument for the rebuilding of a new, post-conflict Northern Ireland, delivering normalcy and forging partnerships between sectors. That is an argument that is often lost on the bean counters in the Treasury. Can he assure the House that he will be making that key point as we all seek to rebuild Northern Ireland in the image of what we would all like it to become?
Hilary Benn
The hon. Gentleman makes a powerful and important point. The progress that Northern Ireland has made over the past 26 years since the signing of the Good Friday agreement is what everybody is striving to continue. I am confident that the Treasury will pay close attention to the exchanges on this urgent question, and the hon. Gentleman’s eloquence speaks for itself.
Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)
I have listened to the answers that the Secretary of State has given, and I cannot understand his logic. First, one of the reasons for not progressing with these deals is that they are not far enough advanced. Does he not recognise the amount of money that has already gone into developing them, and how this decision puts that money at risk? Who will put further resources into those schemes if there is no certainty at the end?
The Secretary of State has talked about Northern Ireland being part of economic growth. In the Causeway Coast and Glens case, much of the investment will be for economic growth, whether that is the development of food and drugs at the University of Ulster, the innovation hub at North West Regional College, or the innovation hub in Cushendall. By not having those schemes in place, the Secretary of State is going to affect economic growth, so can he explain the logic of the decision he has made?
Hilary Benn
In fairness to myself, I have pointed out that these two schemes are not as far advanced as the Belfast and the Derry/Londonderry and Strabane city deals, because one of them only recently signed its heads of terms and the other has yet to do so. From memory, the time it took for the Belfast and the Derry and Strabane deals to get from heads of terms to full financial deal signing was between two and a half and three and a half years. So there is some way to go based on past experience, precisely because a great deal of work has to be done in partnership with the private sector, the Northern Ireland Executive, local businesses and the councils to put the shape of the deals in place. The right hon. Member makes a powerful argument for clarity as quickly as possible.
Jim Allister (North Antrim) (TUV)
Could I suggest that the Causeway deal was particularly well thought out and balanced in its proposition? It is therefore very disappointing to see it paused, particularly for the small but vital village of Bushmills, which services the vast number of visitors who come to the Giant’s Causeway. For years, there has been a neglect of infrastructure there. Roads have been clogged with cars because there is not adequate parking in and about Bushmills. This project was going to address that, as well as community rejuvenation in the village. Therefore, there is an immense sense of disappointment in Bushmills in my constituency at the lost opportunity. Will the Secretary of State, bearing in mind the strategic significance of Bushmills to the advancement of the great Giant’s Causeway project, make a particular case for the reinstatement of the Causeway project?
Hilary Benn
The hon. Gentleman speaks up very strongly on behalf of Bushmills and the Giant’s Causeway area. I know that all other Members representing constituencies affected by the decision the Treasury has had to take will be doing exactly the same. I think all the projects are important, but he makes the case very powerfully.
Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con)
I have two requests of the Secretary of State. First, would he put together and compile information on the investments that have been made to date, perhaps in conjunction with Sue Gray in her new role as envoy, or otherwise? Secondly, will he ensure that we get clarity on 30 October, one way or the other, as to whether these deals can go ahead, so that we do not have so many local authorities, private businesses and others who have invested in these programmes left in continuing limbo after that date?
Hilary Benn
There is quite a lot of information already available about the two schemes that are going ahead, what they have achieved and what the plans are. I think that is readily available, if the right hon. Gentleman needs it, and I will bear in mind the point he makes about information on the other schemes. He and the House have already heard me say a number of times that clarity as soon as possible would be in the interests of everybody.
Carla Lockhart (Upper Bann) (DUP)
The Secretary of State has kindly agreed to meet the council leads in the Mid South West deal area, for which I am a Member of Parliament. Upper Bann, Fermanagh and South Tyrone, and Mid Ulster are all included, but he will note that the other MPs for those areas are absent from this place.
The Secretary of State speaks of partnerships, synergy and the great things that can be achieved. Sadly, in the Mid South West deal area, we are not going to be able to achieve them because the main partner has pulled the plug and paused the deal, which is impacting on infrastructure, tourism and regeneration. Will the Secretary of State assure the House today that he will make the case for the Mid South West area, which is home to over half a million people and a vital economic driver in Northern Ireland within this United Kingdom?
Hilary Benn
I have already indicated to the House that I of course give that assurance. As I said in answer to the previous question, all those who have an interest in these schemes progressing and who are concerned about the impact of the pause—the plug has not been pulled, and you cannot pause a plug, but I think the hon. Member will understand the point—should be making the case, too.
Alex Easton (North Down) (Ind)
If the two city deals do not go ahead and the money is not found through the Treasury, will those deals continue to be parked or will they be dead and buried forever? Can the Secretary of State give a reassurance that those deals will continue, maybe further down the line?
Hilary Benn
I think we are going to have to wait for the Chancellor’s announcement on 30 October, but as I have already told the House, other partners are involved in those deals. Of course, I welcome the Executive’s announcement yesterday that they will proceed with the funding of elements of those deals out of the money that they have.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I thank the Secretary of State for his statement. With your indulgence, Mr Speaker, would the Secretary of State extend our collective thanks to the emergency services and local people for their response to the Strangford college bus crash on Monday past in my constituency? It is a miracle that no one was killed, and we thank God for that.
There have been headlines over the last few weeks about potential pauses of funding for city deals in parts of Northern Ireland, some of which cover areas of my constituency. Can the Secretary of State clarify that in the future action will be taken to ensure that funding that is offered will be delivered, and that devolved nations will not suffer as a result of central funding shortfalls here?
Hilary Benn
With your permission, Mr Speaker, I echo what the hon. Gentleman said about that bus crash. I must say that, when I first read the report, I was very fearful—I think we all were—about what might have been the consequences. I think the response of the emergency services was terrific, and I wish all those who were injured the very best for the future. I understand that the school is providing support, because it must have been and is still a very traumatic experience for the students who were on the bus.
In answer to the hon. Gentleman’s second point, we would all like to live in a world of certainty on a whole load of things. Being in government is about having to deal with the bits where certainty is not quite as certain as the hon. Gentleman may have hoped.
Legacy of the Troubles
Hilary Benn Excerpts(1 month, 1 week ago)
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The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Hilary Benn)
I wish to provide an update to the House following the Northern Ireland Court of Appeal’s judgment in Dillon and others regarding the Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Act; and on the appointment of Sir John Evans as the Chair of the Robert Hamill inquiry.
The Government are absolutely committed to implementing mechanisms to address the legacy of the troubles that fully comply with human rights. My previous written ministerial statement, laid on 29 July 2024, confirmed that the Government, as part of their ongoing commitment to repealing and replacing the Legacy Act, had formally abandoned all grounds of appeal against the section 4 Human Rights Act declarations of incompatibility made by the Northern Ireland High Court in relation to the Act. This included the immunity provisions, providing important clarity for families that the immunity scheme and other offending provisions would not take effect. I also confirmed the Government’s intention to propose measures to further strengthen the independence and powers of the Independent Commission for Reconciliation and Information Recovery.
On 20 September, the Court of Appeal handed down its judgment in Dillon and others. The Court recognised
“the wide powers of ICRIR and the benefit of having investigations placed within one body which is well-resourced”,
and further noted that the ICRIR has
“unfettered access to all information, documents and materials as it reasonably requires in connection with a review” (https://www.bailii.org/nie/cases/NICA/2024/59.html, Paragraph 210).
The Court concluded that such powers
“cannot be criticised, nor should they be underestimated” (https://www.bailii.org/nie/cases/NICA/2024/59.html, Paragraph 210).
However, the Court of Appeal also made further declarations of incompatibility in relation to the Legacy Act to those made by the High Court. One of these was in relation to the current prohibition on civil proceedings—another policy pursued by the previous Government that this Government have already committed to reversing.
The other declarations of incompatibility relate to effective next-of-kin participation where an inquest was previously assigned in order to discharge the state’s article 2 procedural obligations, and the role of the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland in relation to public disclosure of information https://www.judiciaryni.uk/judicial-decisions/summary-judgment-re-dillon-and-others-ni-troubles-legacy-and-reconciliation-0
The Government have already made clear their intention to propose measures that allow legacy inquests previously halted to proceed, should that be the preference of families. Notwithstanding this, the Government take these further declarations of incompatibility very seriously, and it remains my priority to ensure that the ICRIR can provide human rights compliant investigations in all relevant cases.
The Court largely upheld the High Court’s findings in relation to article 2 of the Windsor framework, which, as I noted in my statement to the House on 29 July, introduces legal uncertainty about what protections are afforded by article 2, and how legislation applies across the United Kingdom.
This is a complex and wide-ranging judgment with significant implications. The Government are therefore carefully considering their findings to inform a decision on the way forward. I wish to make it clear to the House that any such decision will be without prejudice to the Government’s absolute commitment to addressing legacy issues in a way that is fully human rights compliant, and with the fullest possible transparency within the framework that rightly exists to ensure that those who work to keep the citizens of the United Kingdom safe are themselves protected from harm.
As set out in my statement of 29 July, the Government have begun preparations to lay in Parliament a draft remedial order under section 10 of the Human Rights Act 1998 to remedy the original declarations of incompatibility made by the High Court, including the immunity provisions. In light of the additional declarations of incompatibility made by the Court of Appeal, I am reviewing this process and will update the House in due course.
This Government take their human rights obligations—and their responsibilities to victims and survivors of the troubles—extremely seriously. As part of the Government’s commitment to repealing and replacing the Legacy Act, I continue to undertake consultations with interested parties regarding a practical way forward that can command support across communities in Northern Ireland and beyond. I said previously that this process will involve difficult conversations, and that is proving to be the case in my engagements so far, which have been sometimes challenging but always insightful. I am encouraged by the willingness of those I have met to date to engage constructively. I look forward to further discussions in the period ahead.
Separately, I am pleased to announce the appointment of Sir John Evans as chair of the Robert Hamill inquiry. A chair of the inquiry is required in order for the inquiry report to be formally passed to me for publication. Due to the passage of time since the report was completed in 2011, it was necessary for me to appoint a new chair of the inquiry, as the former chair, Justice Sir Edwin Jowitt, is unfortunately unable to continue in the role. I send him my very best wishes, and thank him for all he did in his time as chair.
Sir John was a panel member when the inquiry was in operation, and worked closely with Sir Edwin on the report. Sir John brings a wealth of experience to the role as a former Chief Constable, and I know he will do everything in his power to ensure the inquiry report is published soon.
I will remain in close contact with Sir John ahead of the inquiry report being passed formally to me in order to arrange for the necessary legal and security checks to be completed. While I will do everything I can to ensure the report is published as soon as possible, due to the passage of time since the report was completed, it is imperative that these checks happen before publication.
I want to pay tribute to Robert Hamill’s family for their patience and their dignity as they awaited the conclusion of relevant criminal proceedings. I will make a further statement to Parliament when the report is published.
[HCWS108]
Patrick Finucane Murder
Hilary Benn Excerpts(2 months, 1 week ago)
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The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Hilary Benn)
With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a statement about the death of Patrick Finucane.
Patrick Finucane was a human rights lawyer. On 12 February 1989, he was brutally murdered in his home in north Belfast by loyalist paramilitary group the Ulster Defence Association, in front of his wife, Geraldine, who was wounded, and his three children, one of whom is now the hon. Member for Belfast North (John Finucane). From that day onwards, Mrs Finucane and her family have campaigned tirelessly in search of answers about the killing of their loved one.
In 1990 an inquest was opened and closed on the same day with an open verdict. Subsequently, a number of investigations and reviews were conducted. In 2001, following the collapse of power sharing, the UK and Irish Governments agreed at Weston Park to establish public inquiries into a number of troubles-related cases, if recommended by an international judge. Judge Peter Cory was appointed to conduct a review of each case, and in 2004 he recommended that the UK Government hold public inquiries into four deaths: those of Rosemary Nelson, Robert Hamill, Billy Wright and Patrick Finucane. Judge Cory also recommended that the Irish Government establish a tribunal of inquiry into the deaths of former Royal Ulster Constabulary officers Bob Buchanan and Harry Breen. Inquiries were promptly established in all those cases, with one exception: the death of Mr Finucane.
Meanwhile, in 2003, the third investigation by Sir John Stevens into alleged collusion between the security forces and loyalist paramilitaries had concluded that there had been state collusion in Mr Finucane’s killing. That investigation was followed by the conviction in 2004 of one of those responsible, Ken Barrett. With criminal proceedings concluded, the then Northern Ireland Secretary, Paul Murphy, made a statement to Parliament setting out the Government’s commitment to establishing an inquiry, but despite a number of attempts, the Government were unable to reach agreement with the Finucane family on arrangements for one.
In 2011, the coalition Government decided against an inquiry. Instead, a review of what had happened, led by Sir Desmond de Silva QC, was established. Sir Desmond concluded that he was left
“in no doubt that agents of the state were involved in carrying out serious violations of human rights up to and including murder.”
The publication of his findings in 2012 led the then Prime Minister, David Cameron, to make from this Dispatch Box an unprecedented apology to the Finucane family on behalf of the British Government, citing the
“shocking levels of state collusion”—[Official Report, 12 December 2012; Vol. 555, c. 296.]
in this case.
In 2019, the Supreme Court found that all the previous investigations had been insufficient to enable the state to discharge its obligations under article 2 of the European convention on human rights. The Court identified a number of deficiencies in the state’s compliance with article 2. In particular, Sir Desmond’s review did not have the power to compel the attendance of witnesses; those who met Sir Desmond were not subject to testing as to the accuracy of their evidence; and a potentially critical witness was excused from attendance. In November 2020, the then Secretary of State for Northern Ireland announced that he would not establish a public inquiry at that time, pending the outcome of continuing investigations, but that decision was quashed by the Northern Ireland High Court in December 2022.
This Government take our human rights obligations, and our responsibilities towards victims and survivors of the troubles, extremely seriously. The plain fact is that, two decades on, the commitment made by the Government to establish an inquiry into the death of Mr Finucane—first in the agreement with the Irish Government, and then to this House—remains unfulfilled. It is for that exceptional reason that I have decided to establish an independent inquiry into the death of Patrick Finucane, under the Inquiries Act 2005.
I have, of course, met Mrs Finucane and her family—first on 25 July to hear their views, and again yesterday to inform them of my decision. Mrs Finucane asked the Government to set up a public inquiry under the 2005 Act, and, as I have just told the House, the Government have now agreed to do that, in line with the 2019 Supreme Court ruling and the Court of Appeal judgment of July this year.
In making this decision, I have, as is required, considered the likely costs and impact on the public finances. It is the Government’s expectation that the inquiry will, while doing everything that is required to discharge the state’s human rights obligations, avoid unnecessary costs, given all the previous reviews and investigations and the large amount of information and material that is already in the public domain. Indeed, in the most recent High Court proceedings, the judge suggested that an inquiry could
“build on the significant investigative foundations which are already in place”.
As part of my decision-making process, I also considered whether to refer the case to the Independent Commission for Reconciliation and Information Recovery. The commission has powers comparable to those provided by the 2005 Act to compel witnesses and to secure the disclosure of relevant documents by state bodies—powers identified by the Supreme Court as being crucial for the Government to discharge their human rights obligations.
The commission was found, in separate proceedings in February this year, by the High Court to be sufficiently independent and capable of conducting article 2-compliant investigations, and while I am committed to considering measures to further strengthen the commission, I have every confidence in its ability, under the leadership of Sir Declan Morgan, to find answers for survivors and families. However, given the unique circumstances of the case, and the solemn commitment made by the Government in 2001 and again in 2004, the only appropriate way forward is to establish a public inquiry.
Many of us in this House remember the savage brutality of the troubles—a truly terrible time in our history—and we must never forget that most of the deaths and injuries were the responsibility of paramilitaries, including the Ulster Defence Association, the Provisional IRA and others. We should also always pay tribute to the work during that time of the armed forces, police and security services, the vast majority of whom served with distinction and honour, and so many of whom sacrificed their lives in protecting others.
It is very hard for any of us to understand fully the trauma of those who lost loved ones—sons and daughters, spouses and partners, fathers and mothers—and what they have been through. There is of course nothing that any of us can do to bring them back or erase the deep pain that was caused, but what we can do is seek transparency to help provide answers to families and work together for a better future for Northern Ireland, which has made so much progress since these terrible events. I hope that the inquiry will finally provide the information that the Finucane family has sought for so long.
The Government will seek to appoint a chair of the inquiry and establish its terms of reference as soon as possible, and I will update the House further. I commend this statement to the House.
Alex Burghart (Brentwood and Ongar) (Con)
I thank the Secretary of State for his statement, and for advance sight of it and his courtesy call this morning. I am particularly grateful to him for bringing it forward before recess. I know the deadline that the Court gave him was 27 September, so it was important that we had the chance to hear the Government’s position and ask questions before we rose for conference recess.
The murder of Patrick Finucane, like so many murders during the troubles, was a dreadful act of violence that must not be forgotten. The Opposition stand by the findings of the 2012 de Silva report that while there was no evidence of an overarching state conspiracy in the case of his murder, there were shocking levels of collusion—something for which the then Prime Minister, now Lord Cameron, rightly apologised to the House in that year. I fully appreciate the Secretary of State’s desire to bring the matter to a close after a very long period, and I know that a full public inquiry will do it, but I wish to ask serious questions about the decision to choose a full public inquiry over one of the alternatives that he mentioned.
It is clear that the Finucane family, who have suffered so much, are owed a further and deeper investigation. That much was made clear by the Supreme Court’s finding in February 2019, when it noted that the de Silva report had not been able to compel witnesses or take its evidence in public. In other words, it had not been article 2 compliant. However, as the Secretary of State said, this year the Belfast High Court concluded that the ICRIR was capable of conducting an article 2-compliant investigation and was sufficiently independent to do so.
My first question to the Secretary of State is: given that the ICRIR has powers to compel witnesses and take evidence in public, what is it that a full public inquiry will be able to do that the ICRIR cannot? This is important because the ICRIR is already fully staffed and active and could begin work quickly, whereas the establishment of a full public inquiry and the building of that team will inevitably take time. Given the opportunity for further delay, I ask him to set out for the House what steps he is taking to ensure that the public inquiry is conducted as quickly as possible. Can he give an undertaking to have appointed a chair and agreed terms of reference before the end of the year, say? In his statement, he referred to the High Court proceedings, where the judge suggested that an inquiry could
“build on the significant investigative foundations which are already in place”.
I hope that will mean that we can have terms of reference relatively fast.
Similarly, in the Secretary of State’s conversations with his right hon. Friend the Chancellor, has the Secretary of State set an expectation of time and costs? We know from previous public inquiries that unless these things are considered early on, the inquiries can take a long time and cost a great deal.
On the issue of the ICRIR itself, I am pleased to hear that the commission has the Secretary of State’s confidence. We agree that it is showing itself to be an excellent and effective body with a highly capable chair. I note that it was also the creation of the previous Government. It was created, as he knows, by the Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Act 2023, which his Government have committed to repeal. Indeed, the House will appreciate that a large part of that legislation is given over to the creation of the ICRIR. I ask him to reassure us that he has no intention of repealing that part of the Act.
Returning to the public inquiry that has just been announced, there is one other issue on which we should seek clarity today. In his statement, the Secretary of State referred to the “unique circumstances” of the case. It is important that we understand exactly what those unique circumstances are, because it is important that the Government do not unwittingly set a precedent for many more public inquiries. As a veteran of the Cabinet Office, I became acutely aware of a danger that public inquiries could cease to be the exception and become the rule. Given that there are thought to be thousands of murders from the troubles still unsolved, there is a risk of setting a precedent that would make inquiries the rule. There will be those who ask that if there is to be a full public inquiry in one murder case, why not in another, or in many others? To avoid that happening if this case is, as the Secretary of State says, genuinely unique, the Government have a responsibility to set out why that is. We must not risk turning the system of public inquiries into a more routine process. I am sure that he will feel the same way, and I ask him to make that commitment. I thank him for his statement.
Hilary Benn
I am grateful to the Opposition spokesperson for his opening remarks, and I will respond directly to his very legitimate questions.
What is unique about this case—I apologise for the length of the opening statement but I thought it was really important to take the House through the history—is the commitment given on two previous occasions by the Government of our country that there would be a public inquiry. To come to his last question, it sets no precedent, but there were exceptional circumstances relating to this case that led me to take this decision.
I will of course, especially as the Finucane family have been waiting 35 years, seek to establish the inquiry as quickly as possible. We have to appoint a judge. The judge then has to be consulted by myself about the terms of reference. The time it takes will depend on how the inquiry unfolds. I am acutely conscious of cost—the hon. Gentleman’s point was extremely fair—which is why it seems to me that, given all the material and information that is already out there, what the inquiry can most usefully do is not seek to go over all of that, but interrogate the information, material and witnesses as necessary. As the Supreme Court made clear, that is what has been missing that led it to conclude that this was not article 2 compliant.
We have a commitment to repeal and replace the legacy Act, and we will begin that process shortly, finally laying to rest the conditional immunity. The hon. Gentleman will have heard what the Government have said about civil cases and inquests. On the independent commission, while I shadowed this role in Opposition and since taking up the office of Secretary of State, I have been very clear that while we want to return to the principles of the Stormont House agreement, there needs to be information recovery and there needs to be continuing investigation. It is true that the agreement envisaged two separate bodies, but those functions are combined in the ICRIR. As I have been very frank in saying, now that body has been established and all its staff appointed, I really do not see the point in abolishing it only to recreate something that looks very much like what we have today. It is a pragmatic decision that I have taken. I also made clear in my statement that I am committed to considering further steps to strengthen the ICRIR’s independence and its powers as necessary. I hope that provides the hon. Gentleman with the reassurance he was looking for.
Colum Eastwood (Foyle) (SDLP)
On 17 January 1989, Conservative Minister Douglas Hogg claimed in Parliament that solicitors in Northern Ireland were
“unduly sympathetic to the cause of the IRA.”—[Official Report, Standing Committee B, 17 January 1989; c. 508.]
Seamus Mallon MP responded that he had
“no doubt that there are lawyers walking the streets or driving on the roads of the North of Ireland who have become targets for assassins’ bullets as a result of the statement that has been made tonight.”—[Official Report, Standing Committee B, 17 January 1989; c. 519.]
Three weeks later, lawyer Pat Finucane was shot 14 times and murdered in his own house in front of his wife and three children.
I commend Geraldine Finucane and the Finucane family, including of course the hon. Member for Belfast North (John Finucane), on their tireless campaigning to get to this point, and I thank the Secretary of State for finally doing the right thing on behalf of the British Government in announcing this inquiry. When does he envisage the inquiry beginning?
Hilary Benn
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his appreciative words. He alludes to a very, very unhappy history in this and many other cases. I do take the point made by the hon. Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Alex Burghart) about all the pain and suffering that all families have experienced, but in this particular case, I have decided that this inquiry is the right thing to do.
James MacCleary (Lewes) (LD)
The murder of Patrick Finucane remains a shocking crime even now, 35 years on, and even in the context of so many tragedies that took place during the troubles in Northern Ireland. I am sure that the thoughts of everyone in the House are with the family of Patrick Finucane, as mine are. They have suffered for so long waiting for answers after that terrible day, and I hope that the independent inquiry announced by the Secretary of State will go some way towards bringing at least some closure for the family after all these decades.
The Liberal Democrats welcome the Secretary of State’s statement and his announcement of the independent inquiry, but does he agree that there is a need to acknowledge the wider need for truth and justice in Northern Ireland? In contrast to the shadow Secretary of State, the hon. Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Alex Burghart), I ask him whether he will come to the House with a wider statement on repealing the legacy and reconciliation Act, which of course the Liberal Democrats opposed in the last Parliament, and talk more widely about the role of legacy in Northern Ireland, which of course is so important. Can I also ask the Secretary of State to clarify the ability of this inquiry to compel documents and witnesses, and like others, can I ask about the timescales of the inquiry? I am sure he agrees that Patrick Finucane’s family have waited long enough already.
Hilary Benn
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for welcoming the inquiry, and I am very happy to give him and all Members of the House an assurance that as we develop our proposals, I am in the process of talking to lots of people about how to give effect to the “repeal and replace” commitment that was in the Gracious Speech. I will, of course, come back to the House with proposals in due course and keep it informed. The honest answer to the question he and other Members have put is that I want to get on with this inquiry as soon as possible, but I have certain duties that I have to undertake in order to give effect to it. However, after this long period of time, let us get going with this inquiry as soon as we possibly can.
Claire Hanna (Belfast South and Mid Down) (SDLP)
The brutal murder of Pat Finucane in front of his wife and children was mired in collusion before the killing, as it has been in the many long years since. Today is about the tenacity of the Finucane family, including my constituency neighbour the hon. Member for Belfast North (John Finucane), but it will have resonance for many other victims of the troubles whose needs have, for many years, been put behind the needs of the victim-makers who want the truth to remain covered up. I am so glad that the truth may now finally out for this family.
As the Secretary of State knows, many other families have faced obstruction from state and non-state actors in their quest for truth and a reconciled future. I am thinking of families such as those of the victims of Freddie Scappaticci, the family of Sean Brown, and many others. Will the Secretary of State commit to the same swiftness and determination in removing the barriers that have been placed in front of those families in their quest for truth?
Hilary Benn
The hon. Member has alluded to a number of cases. Of course, we are awaiting the final report on Operation Kenova, the interim report having been published early this year. I undertake and make a commitment, as any holder of this office would do, to carefully consider each individual case and reach what I think is a sensible way forward. Collectively, there is a huge task for all of us in playing our part in enabling families to find out answers that they have not yet had.
In that context, I welcome the ICRIR’s announcement on Monday this week that it has had 85 inquiries and has already agreed to start looking into eight cases. That is significant, because there are those who say that no one should go anywhere near the ICRIR because of its origins and parentage, if I may use that phrase. However, having taken the decision that the ICRIR will remain in place, it does have powers. It has the ability to get information and to question people, and it has said that it wants to develop what it calls a system of “enhanced inquisitorial proceedings”, which is public hearings. Of course, hearings in public are really important to many families, because they want the truth to come out and to be able to ask questions, but, crucially, for justice to be seen to be done.
Sir Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con)
Can I press the Secretary of State further on the issue of other families? Months ago, under the previous Government, those families saw a Bill—which I did not support—repressing and restricting their ability to have inquests. Today, they see a full public inquiry being announced for another family. Will the Secretary of State update the House on what personal engagement he will have with those families? Inevitably, they are going to say, “We have got a public inquiry in this case, but we are being asked to wait in the queue for this legacy Bill inquest body.” They will think something is not right about that.
Hilary Benn
I am very grateful to the right hon. Gentleman, who was such a distinguished holder of the office I now hold, for raising that point. Over the past three weeks, I have met a number of those families whose inquests were brought to an end—some because of the 1 May portcullis that came down and brought an end to the inquests; others because the coroners had said, “We don’t think we can take this any further because of issues to do with confidential material.” I undertake to the House to reach a decision in those cases and inform the families as quickly as possible.
As I have said before, one of the reasons why we made our commitment in relation to the legacy Act is this: what is it about this part of our United Kingdom that means citizens should be denied the right to bring a civil case—which is what the Act did—and to have an inquest? That cannot be right and proper, which is why this Government have made that commitment.
Adam Jogee (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Lab)
I welcome the Secretary of State’s statement, and I am sure all colleagues give thanks that Northern Ireland and its people now live in peace. Can the Secretary of State tell us how he thinks this announcement will help contribute to continued and meaningful reconciliation in Northern Ireland?
Hilary Benn
For one family, this now provides a process, but I am very conscious that many other families will say, “What about us?” That is why we need to find the most effective means to get to the truth, and that is part of the reason, as I have explained, why I decided that we would not get rid of the commission. I have met Sir Declan Morgan a number of times, and I have confidence in his ability to do his work. We have to find practical means of providing answers to all of those families, so that they feel their story can be told and they can get what they have been looking for. The point I wish to emphasise again to the House is that this particular case is exceptional for the reasons I set out in my statement.
Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP)
One of the things the Secretary of State did not outline in his statement was that the Supreme Court considered whether it was appropriate not to proceed with a public inquiry, and that the Supreme Court agreed, provided that an investigation could satisfy article 2 compliance. He has said today that the ICRIR not only has his trust and confidence, but has the ability to perform such tasks for other families. So when he rightly says that families across Northern Ireland will ask the question, “What about us?”, so too do I, because the most exceptional circumstance about this is the exceptionality of treatment. Over 1,200 families still have neither truth nor justice, and if the plans enacted last year continue, they will never get justice. I would ask him, in repudiating the ICRIR and suggesting today that it is not an appropriate mechanism for the Finucane family—and I do not besmirch their grief or their quest for truth and justice—but it is appropriate for every other, how can he honestly look victims in the eye and say that there is not a hierarchy?
Hilary Benn
There should not be a hierarchy, and the right hon. Gentleman and I shared reservations with—indeed opposition to—the legacy Act because it did cut off lots of routes to justice. In the end, I think families should have the opportunity to avail themselves of inquests and civil cases, but the commission is now in existence. The honest answer to his question is that in this particular case, and this does not apply to any of the others, the Government of our country made a commitment twice—once at Weston Park, and secondly by the then Secretary of State—to establish a public inquiry. I think it is right and proper, the Government in the past having made that commitment, that we honour it, and that is the answer I would give him.
Richard Burgon (Leeds East) (Ind)
The state collusion in the murder of a human rights lawyer in front of his wife and children is an incredibly serious matter that chills us all, so I very much welcome the decision by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland on a public inquiry into the murder of Pat Finucane. It is a decision to be welcomed, and it is a good signal from our new Government that they are meeting their commitments and obligations. However, this very welcome announcement must of course be followed by the action that the Secretary of State has rightly outlined. Will my right hon. Friend therefore give further reassurance to this House that all necessary resources will be provided, so that there can be truth and justice in this incredibly important matter?
Hilary Benn
I am grateful to my hon. Friend and constituency neighbour for what he has said. Having made this decision, I think all of us would recognise the need to get on with it as swiftly as possible.
Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)
This is a bad decision today. It will cause anger and further hurt for the many hundreds of families who have not had justice for the murder of their loved ones, including the mass murder of Protestant workmen at Kingsmill, the blowing up of Protestant workmen at Teebane and the horrendous murder of worshippers at Tullyvallen, among others. I think the Secretary of State has to explain to the House why, after tens of millions of pounds have been spent on inquiries and reviews of this case, he still believes it is necessary to acquiesce in the demands of the family by having another inquiry. How does he justify it to those hundreds of families that no such resources will be put in place to seek out the truth about the murders of their family members? Given the record of inquiries of this nature being a golden goose for barristers and solicitors in Northern Ireland, how is he going to ensure that the costs are capped?
Hilary Benn
The right hon. Member recounts some of the terrible murders, and I have myself met, as I am sure others have, the only survivor of the Kingsmill massacre and heard at first hand the truly chilling story of what happened on that day. First, considerable resources are now being given to the independent commission, and it is important to recognise that, because it has a huge task on its hands. I hope others will come forward to the commission to avail themselves of what it can offer.
Secondly, and I have said this to other Members in answering their questions, in this particular case a commitment was made twice, and I think it is important that we honour it. We also have to recognise in this particular case that the Court held in 2019 that all of the investigations—I accept what the right hon. Member said about them and their extent, and of course they involved the expenditure of public moneys—did not meet the requirements of article 2. Faced with that, and faced with the quashing at the end of 2022 of the decision of a previous Secretary of State not to call an inquiry pending further investigations, it has fallen to me to look at this and to decide how we are going to go forward. I have set out my reasons as clearly as I can hope to do.
Robin Swann (South Antrim) (UUP)
Will the Secretary of State clarify that he has now ended any opportunity for the families and loved ones who still held out hope that there would be an inquiry into the death and murder of their loved ones at the hands of terrorists across Northern Ireland? Is he saying that the only opportunity for them is to go to the Independent Commission for Reconciliation and Information Recovery—an organisation that does not have the full support of the communities of Northern Ireland and does not have the support of and has been queried by many of the families who have lost loved ones? Can I just seek clarity from the Secretary of State that he is saying to those families that their only opportunity for truth, recovery and justice is to go through this organisation, and that he will not engage with them about a further inquiry?
Hilary Benn
I say to the hon. Gentleman that the independent commission should not be the only opportunity open to them. That is why I have indicated that this Government will restore civil cases, and we will restore inquests in the first instance in those cases where they had been brought to an end by the legacy Act. I agree with him that it would be quite wrong if one was to say that there was only one route, denying people—the families—the rights to inquests and civil cases that apply in all other parts of the United Kingdom. That was one of the things about the legacy Act that was so profoundly wrong. It did not say that we were going to establish a new body and people could use that route, but could also use the other two—inquests and civil cases—that had been available to them thus far; it shut those other routes down. That is part of the reason why the legacy Act was so widely opposed in Northern Ireland. I must be honest that it will take time, because it will obviously require primary legislation to deal with the bit of the legacy Act that stopped the inquests and the civil cases, and that will flow from the consultation I am currently undertaking.
Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Ind)
I thank the Secretary of State for his statement. We should all put on record our thanks to the hon. Member for Belfast North (John Finucane), his mother Geraldine and all the Finucane family, who have campaigned for so long, as have so many others, for this inquiry. I recognise the difficulties in prescribing what an inquiry should do, the cost of it and the length of time it should take, but can the Secretary of State tell us roughly when we can expect to establish the inquiry in its formal setting? Can he give some kind of outline timetable for how long it will take to hopefully bring about a resolution, after the disgraceful murder of Pat Finucane all those years ago?
Hilary Benn
As I have already indicated, I will seek to establish the inquiry as quickly as possible. How long it will take is ultimately in the hands of the judge when he or she is appointed.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I thank the Secretary of State for his statement. As he understands, the Democratic Unionist party stood against the legacy legislation, in the interests of pursuing justice for victims. What he says today will give hope to families such as those affected by Kingsmill. I had an Adjournment debate on the Kingsmill massacre in the last Session. On 5 January 1976—48 years ago—10 innocent men who just happened to be Protestants were murdered with weapons that were linked to 40 other serious Republican terrorist crimes over a 15-year period. Information has indicated that the perpetrators were helped by the Garda Síochán. Clearly some of the Garda Síochán had IRA sympathies. It could be said that by their very position, they were agents of the state of the Republic of Ireland. Will the families of those 10 innocent Protestant men be granted the same path to justice as the Finucane family? If no inquiry is granted on Kingsmill, it will be perceived—and indeed will be proven by the Secretary of State himself—that a two-tier system of justice for victims has been clearly enshrined by this Government. How disappointing, how disgusting, and how angry that makes me.
Hilary Benn
I am sorry to have disappointed the hon. Member. As I indicated, having met the one survivor of the Kingsmill massacre, I have some appreciation of just what an appalling and brutal event that was, at a time of many appalling and brutal murders. There has been an inquest, which concluded recently. As I recall, it held the Provisional IRA responsible for that murder. I am sure that the families want to proceed further, and one of the options open to them is to go to the independent commission, but at the risk of repeating myself, I need to point out that I came to my conclusion because the Finucane case is exceptional, for the reasons that I have tried to explain.
Jim Allister (North Antrim) (TUV)
May I begin by apologising to the Secretary of State and the House for being absent at the beginning of the statement? Secretary of State, has there ever been a family given more preferential handling by Government than the Finucane family? They have had a prime ministerial apology, multiple investigations, inquiries and now an uncapped public inquiry, after the family rejected previous Government offers of inquiries. Is not the tragic takeaway from the statement that the ICRIR is good enough for innocent victims of the IRA, the Ulster Volunteer Force and others, but not good enough for the Finucane family? Why is the Secretary of State perpetuating that odious hierarchy of victims?
Hilary Benn
I am not, is the answer. I know that the hon. Member was slightly late in coming to the Chamber, and from the beginning I set out my thought process. He will have an opportunity to read my statement subsequently. I clearly set out the reasons why I reached this decision. It is a fact that when the then Prime Minister David Cameron apologised from this Dispatch Box, it was unprecedented, because he referred to shocking collusion in this case. We Members of this House should take that extremely seriously, all of us who are committed to upholding our obligations. We were faced with two promises to establish public inquiries. I accept what the hon. Member says about that not happening after 2004 because of the then stance of the Finucane family, but that has now changed. There is also the Supreme Court decision of 2019; it said, I am afraid, that for all that had gone before, the state had not complied with its article 2 obligations. We will now do so.
Bill Presented
Renters’ Rights Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Secretary Angela Rayner, supported by the Prime Minister, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Secretary Shabana Mahmood, Secretary Bridget Phillipson, Secretary Liz Kendall, Secretary Jonathan Reynolds, Secretary Ian Murray and Secretary Jo Stevens, presented a Bill to make provision changing the law about rented homes, including provision abolishing fixed-term assured tenancies and assured shorthold tenancies; imposing obligations on landlords and others in relation to rented homes and temporary and supported accommodation; and for connected purposes.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time tomorrow, and to be printed (Bill 8) with explanatory notes (Bill 8-EN).
Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Act 2023
Hilary Benn Excerpts(3 months, 3 weeks ago)
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The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Hilary Benn)
I wish to provide an update to the House on the Government’s approach to the Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Act 2023 (the Act).
The Government have today written to the Northern Ireland Court of Appeal to formally abandon all their grounds of appeal against the section 4 Human Rights Act declarations of incompatibility made by the Northern Ireland High Court in relation to the Act. The declarations of incompatibility that the Government are no longer challenging include those relating to the conditional immunity provisions, which could— had they not been struck out by the High Court—have seen individuals being granted immunity from prosecution for providing information about troubles-related deaths and serious injuries.
This is the first step in fulfilling the Government manifesto commitment to repeal and replace the Act. Victims and survivors have felt ignored by the previous Government’s approach to legacy, which has been clearly rejected across communities in Northern Ireland. The conditional immunity provisions, in particular, have been opposed by all of the Northern Ireland political parties and by many victims and survivors, as well as being found by the court to be unlawful.
The action taken today to abandon the grounds of appeal against the section 4 Human Rights Act declarations of incompatibility demonstrates that this Government will take a different approach. It underlines the Government’s absolute commitment to the Human Rights Act, and to establishing legacy mechanisms that are capable of commanding the confidence of communities and of victims and survivors.
The Government will now begin preparations to address the incompatibility findings of the High Court, which will include laying a draft remedial order under section 10 of the Human Rights Act 1998 to remove offending provisions from the statute book. The Northern Ireland Office has begun work on this, with a view to laying the draft order in Parliament as soon as parliamentary time allows.
The Government have also been clear that it would be irresponsible to repeal the Act in its entirety without anything to replace it. The High Court found the Independent Commission for Reconciliation and Information Recovery to be independent and capable of conducting human rights compliant investigations. The success of the ICRIR will, ultimately, be determined by its ability to deliver justice, accountability, and information to victims and survivors of the troubles. Under the leadership of Sir Declan Morgan as Chief Commissioner, the Government have confidence in its ability to do so. It is also clear, however, that to achieve these objectives, the ICRIR will need to gain the confidence of victims and survivors in its work. The Government will consult on measures to strengthen the ICRIR’s independence from Government and its powers.
The Government have also committed to reverse the current prohibition on bringing new civil proceedings, and to propose measures to allow inquests previously halted to proceed. Both mechanisms, while not without their own challenges, have helped to provide many victims and survivors with information, and a sense of justice or accountability that they might not otherwise have obtained. The Government are acutely aware of the distress that the cessation of live inquests in particular has caused those families, and will consider all possible options to ensure those cases can conclude satisfactorily. We will also consider the best way forward for those inquests involving a significant amount of sensitive information which were unable to conclude within the coronial system.
Effectively addressing the legacy of the past is hugely important, not just for those victims and survivors who continue to pursue answers, but for society in Northern Ireland to be able to move forward. The Government recognise that achieving absolute consensus on these issues is immensely difficult. That is demonstrated by the series of failed attempts since 1998 to implement effective legacy mechanisms. Indeed, even the Good Friday agreement, which brought peace to Northern Ireland after decades of violence, was opposed by some due to the very challenging policy of releasing early from prison those individuals convicted for serious troubles-related offences.
The Government will therefore now undertake a period of consultation with interested parties, including victims and survivors, to seek their views. This will, of course, include engagement with the Northern Ireland political parties and with the Irish Government, with whom the UK Government are committed to working in partnership in seeking a practical way forward that can command support across communities in Northern Ireland and beyond. This will include veterans, recognising the dedicated service of the vast majority of police officers, members of the armed forces, and the security services who did so much to keep people in Northern Ireland safe during the troubles.
The Government recognise that this process will involve difficult conversations, and that many stakeholders will hold different views regarding the best way forward. It is also clear that a resolution to addressing the legacy of Northern Ireland’s past will not be reached without a willingness, by all, to listen, to understand the perspectives of others, and to compromise. The Government welcome the opportunity to have these conversations in the months ahead.
Article 2(1) of the Windsor Framework
In the course of its judgment, the High Court also found that, in relation to article 2(1) of the Windsor framework, primary legislation can be disapplied by the courts where the court considers that legislation engages provisions of EU law which no longer apply in Northern Ireland. Whilst the Government are unwavering in its commitment to the obligations under article 2(1) of the Windsor framework, this judgment has potentially wide-ranging implications for other UK legislation which extends to Northern Ireland. Therefore, we have asked the court to continue with its consideration of the interpretation and effect of article 2(1) given the profound constitutional and legal questions that have arisen from the ruling. This is a technical point of law which we hope will be clarified by an onward appeal, for the benefit of ensuring legal certainty and in maintaining a clear human rights framework in Northern Ireland.
Annex: List of declarations of incompatibility
A declaration that the immunity from prosecution provisions are incompatible with articles 2 and 3 of the European Convention on Human Rights (“ECHR”).
A declaration that section 43(1) (Troubles-related civil actions brought on or after 17 May 2022 may not be continued on or after 18 November 2023) is incompatible with article 6
ECHR.
A declaration that section 8 of the Act (exclusion of evidence in civil proceedings) is incompatible with articles 2, 3 and 6 ECHR.
A declaration that section 41 of the Act (prohibition of criminal enforcement action for non- serious/connected Troubles-related offences) is incompatible with articles 2 and 3 ECHR.
A declaration that parts of sections 46 and 47 (interim custody orders) are incompatible with article 6 and article 1, protocol 1 ECHR.
[HCWS30]
Oral Answers to Questions
Hilary Benn Excerpts(3 months, 3 weeks ago)
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Adam Jogee (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Lab)
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Hilary Benn)
It is great to see the House so full for Northern Ireland questions, and I congratulate all colleagues recently elected in Northern Ireland.
I met the First Minister and Deputy First Minister twice in my first four days, during which we discussed a wide range of issues, including the Government’s commitment to repeal and replace the legacy Act. I plan to update the House shortly on how we will begin that process.
Adam Jogee
It is very good to see my hon. Friends the Members for Foyle (Colum Eastwood) and for Belfast South and Mid Down (Claire Hanna) on the Government Benches. I am sure the commitment that the Secretary of State has just given us will be welcomed by many in Newcastle-under-Lyme and, indeed, in Northern Ireland, given the lack of support for the legacy Act. Can he undertake to consult widely on the Act’s repeal and replacement, and will he keep the House informed?
Hilary Benn
I can indeed give my hon. Friend that assurance, because the problem with the legacy Act is that it has almost no support in Northern Ireland among political parties and victims’ families. We have given a very clear commitment to consult on how the repeal and replacement will work: in the end, we hope to get a large measure of support for a new approach, which the current approach has failed to secure.
Robin Swann (South Antrim) (UUP)
I thank the Secretary of State for his answer. He will recognise that Northern Ireland is represented in the Executive, in the Northern Ireland Assembly, and now in this place by more than just the parties of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister. Will he give an assurance that he will deal openly and transparently with all those parties?
Hilary Benn
I will readily give the hon. Member that assurance. I have met with all the party leaders, and the commitment to consultation that I have just given to my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Adam Jogee) will extend to all the parties in Northern Ireland.
Alex Burghart (Brentwood and Ongar) (Con)
I warmly welcome the right hon. Gentleman to his place. I know he brings considerable qualities to his role, and I look forward to working with him on behalf of all the people in Northern Ireland. I pay tribute to his predecessor, the right hon. Chris Heaton-Harris, who did such an excellent job and is much missed on the Conservative Benches.
I very much welcome the positive meetings that the Secretary of State has had with all parties since he was appointed. Following those meetings, may I ask him to reassure the House that on his watch, he will be an active supporter of the Union and an advocate for it?
Hilary Benn
I join the hon. Gentleman in expressing the House’s collective thanks to my predecessor, and congratulate him and his hon. Friend the Member for Hamble Valley (Paul Holmes) on their appointments. I look forward to working with both of them.
The Government are strongly committed to our United Kingdom, as was clearly set out in our manifesto. I hope the hon. Gentleman will see that reflected in our work as we take it forward.
Alex Burghart
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his answer. The Government’s manifesto states that they are
“committed to implementing the Windsor Framework in good faith”.
However, that manifesto did not mention the Command Paper, which was vital in getting Stormont back. As the right hon. Gentleman knows, that Command Paper contained a number of measures to strengthen the Union—the East-West Council and InterTrade UK, to name but two. Will the Government faithfully implement all those commitments in the Command Paper, which are designed to strengthen the Union?
Hilary Benn
As the hon. Gentleman knows, when we were in opposition, we supported the two statutory instruments and the Humble Address. We will set up the independent monitoring panel, and we have recently had a success in developing our relationship with the European Union over dental amalgam: the new Government have secured a 10-year derogation, which has been widely welcomed by the parties in Northern Ireland.
Jim Allister (North Antrim) (TUV)
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Hilary Benn)
The Government are committed to ensuring that Euro 2028 benefits the whole of the United Kingdom. We are working as quickly as possible with all partners to assess the options on the Casement Park project.
Sammy Wilson
Many people were surprised when the Secretary of State, on first being appointed, made it his priority to deliver on Casement Park. Committing £320 million for a stadium to host five matches at a time when there are huge waiting lists to be dealt with in the health service, and with special educational needs and social housing needing funding, is an indefensible use of public money. Can the Secretary of State assure us that the Government’s view has not been influenced by any personal interventions by the chief of staff of the Labour party, for whom this is a personal project, and can he confirm that such an intervention would be a breach of standards in public life?
Hilary Benn
I would say to the right hon. Gentleman that I said this was a priority because a decision needs to be made. The fact is that the Government have inherited a commitment to hosting the Euros at Casement Park. It is now a year and three quarters since UEFA awarded that right to Northern Ireland, and to the United Kingdom and Ireland, but nothing has happened during the year and three quarters since then to progress the project. We are left with a situation in which the cost has gone through the roof, and even if we had the money, we do not know if we could build it in time. That is why the Government are looking at it, and that is why I said it was a priority to make a decision.
Claire Hanna
The Gaelic Athletic Association is overwhelmingly a force for good across our island, and I was pleased to see so many in Britain enjoying the magic of the hurling final via the BBC on Sunday. GAA fans in Northern Ireland, like Northern Ireland football fans awaiting sub-regional stadium funding, have been let down by a decade of Stormont dither, by sniping such as we have just seen and by the last Government. Had they green-lit the project when they said they would, construction would have been well under way in time for the Euros. Can the Secretary of State assure us that Casement will ultimately be built, and that spectacles such as we will see for Armagh this Sunday will in time be hosted in Belfast?
Hilary Benn
I think we all wish Armagh well in the all-Ireland final. The Executive are committed to the Casement Park project—it has been a commitment for over a decade now—but it has not progressed. Windsor Park got an upgrade, Ravenhill got an upgrade and it is important that Casement Park is built. That is why I said on my recent visit that one way or another that project needs to be completed.
Jim Allister
Will the Secretary of State explain to the 356,000 citizens of Northern Ireland who await out-patient appointments and to the 94,000 who await in-patient admissions why, in the Government’s view, it seems to be a priority to pour hundreds of millions of pounds into a GAA sports stadium instead of fixing our health service? If the Government commit money and the Euros do not come to Belfast, will the Government not be in a position in which the rugby stadium and the football stadium did not get a penny of Treasury or Northern Ireland Office money, but the GAA did? How could that be fair and how could that be proportionate?
Hilary Benn
I hope very much that sport will be a force for unity in Northern Ireland, rather than a source of division. When it comes to the health service, the hon. Gentleman makes a very powerful point. The state of the NHS in Northern Ireland, with the longest waiting lists in the United Kingdom, is a function, if I may say so, of decisions that the Executive have failed to take over many years. The people of Northern Ireland want to have a better health service, and that needs the plan to which the new Health Minister is committed.
Rachel Hopkins (Luton South and South Bedfordshire) (Lab)
Does the Secretary of State agree that we would not be in the final minutes of extra time on whether Casement Park can be rebuilt in time for the Euros if the previous Government had actually done something about it after we were awarded host status a year and three quarters ago?
Hilary Benn
I agree with my hon. Friend. The facts speak for themselves: a year and three quarters since we were awarded the wonderful opportunity to host the Euros, nothing has happened on the project.
Sorcha Eastwood (Lagan Valley) (Alliance)
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Hilary Benn)
The interim fiscal framework agreed earlier this year introduced a needs-based funding formula set at 124% of spending per head in England, based on the advice of the Northern Ireland Fiscal Council, and we are committed to taking forward these discussions with the Executive.
Sorcha Eastwood
I welcome the Secretary of State to his place, and look forward to working with him in his new role. Fixing Northern Ireland’s financial framework is crucial to ensuring that our public services are properly resourced, and indeed that impacts on my constituents in Lagan Valley. Will he ensure that any new arrangements are fully baselined and informed by independent expert analysis?
Hilary Benn
The Northern Ireland Fiscal Council was set up to help to answer the question about what the need is in Northern Ireland. It came up with a range of between 121% and 127%, and opted for 124% in the middle. The fact that that was in the interim fiscal framework that the previous Government negotiated is welcome, and was welcomed by the Finance Minister in Northern Ireland. We are committed to taking those discussions forward, and I understand that the Finance Minister in the Executive has already met the new Chief Secretary to the Treasury.
Jim Shannon
May I, too, welcome the Secretary of State to his place and wish him well in the role that he now plays? The Chancellor has indicated that there will be a 5% increase in wages for health workers and those in the education sector, but unfortunately, given the current Barnett consequentials for Northern Ireland, that will not mean 5% for those workers in Northern Ireland. Will the Secretary of State urgently look at that issue to ensure that health and education workers in Northern Ireland deserve the same increase in their wages as those on the mainland do because, quite clearly, I am here for them?
Hilary Benn
As the hon. Gentleman will be well aware, decisions about pay in Northern Ireland are a matter for the Executive. Any additional spending in England will apply through the Barnett consequentials to Northern Ireland in the normal way.
Tonia Antoniazzi (Gower) (Lab)
I welcome the Secretary of State’s commitment to needs-based funding for Northern Ireland. Does he agree that how funding is allocated and how further revenue might be generated are matters for the devolved Administration and the Assembly?
Hilary Benn
I certainly do agree. All Governments, including the Northern Ireland Executive, have the money they have coming in, the money they can raise in addition, and how they will prioritise their spending. The Northern Ireland Executive have more funding per head of population than England, and it is for the Executive to take decisions about what their priorities are, and allocate funding accordingly.
Paul Holmes (Hamble Valley) (Con)
I welcome the Secretary of State and the Minister of State to their positions, and thank them for their gracious phone call last week to welcome me and my hon. Friend the Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Alex Burghart) to our positions. On Monday, the Business Secretary slipped out a written statement, rather than coming to this House, revealing that the Government have decided not to proceed with an export development guarantee, or emergency loans that would save Harland and Wolff, despite its unique role and outstanding defence contract. Will the Secretary of State use his position to continue the support that the previous Government gave to Northern Ireland, and make it clear to the Treasury that the people of Northern Ireland expect the Government to intervene in this case, and support Harland and Woolf, as is desperately needed?
Hilary Benn
I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on his appointment. The reasons for the Government’s decision about Harland and Wolff were clearly set out in the written ministerial statement that my right hon. Friend the Business Secretary laid before the House. Harland and Wolff is now talking to its main supporters, Riverstone, about potential additional financial support. We are committed to shipbuilding across the United Kingdom, including in Northern Ireland, and as that written ministerial statement made clear, Harland and Wolff is an essential part of the £1.6 billion contract for the fleet solid support ships.
Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP)
Mr Richard Holden (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Hilary Benn)
As set out in the King’s Speech, the Government are committed to repeal and replace the legacy Act. As well as scrapping conditional immunity, we will set out steps to allow troubles-era inquests and civil claims to resume. We will consult with all interested parties on a way forward that can obtain the support of victims and survivors, and comply with our human rights obligations.
Bob Blackman
I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on his appointment. Clearly, any delays will in-build a legacy for the victims and their families, who have waited a long time for closure on these issues. I understand absolutely the need to create consensus across Northern Ireland for what will be proposed, but will he set out the timeline and the plan for achieving that and agree to come back to the House to update us when that plan is ready?
Hilary Benn
I am happy to give the hon. Member that assurance about keeping the House informed and reporting to it on my plans. As far as the independent commission is concerned, the Government have decided that we will retain it. That is because the Stormont House agreement—we want to return to the principles that it set out—envisages both information recovery and continued investigation. Those two functions are in effect combined in the independent commission. I met Sir Declan Morgan yesterday to talk about how that work can be taken forward. The commission is now open for business and available for families to approach to find an answer, for which many of them have been looking for so long.
Mr Holden
The former Member for Plymouth Moor View was a strong advocate for veterans in Cabinet and in government. Will the right hon. Gentleman assure veterans in Basildon and Billericay and across the country that any future legislation will protect now-elderly veterans from vexatious legal action in the future?
Hilary Benn
I pay tribute to the work that veterans and members of the police and the security services did over many years during the troubles in trying to keep people safe from terrorism. I undertake, as part of the consultation that I have already set out to the House, to consult veterans’ organisations.
Carla Lockhart (Upper Bann) (DUP)
I welcome the Secretary of State to his position. Will he further outline what discussions he is having with groups and organisations who represent innocent victims? Will he assure the House that in repealing this legislation, there will be no pandering to those who were the victim makers? What meaningful engagement is he having with the Irish Government, who oppose the Act but have disgracefully refused to deal with the many allegations of state collusion with the Provisional IRA? I am thinking specifically about the long-awaited public inquiry into the Omagh bombing.
Hilary Benn
I discussed the matter with Micheál Martin when I saw him early after my appointment, and he has expressed the hope that a way forward can be found that might lead to the withdrawal of the interstate case that Ireland has brought. I will certainly engage with victims’ organisations—I met a number of them during my time as shadow Secretary of State—because I am committed to trying to find a way forward. In the end, if this is to work, it must work for the victims’ families, because they are the people who say, “What went before hasn’t given us what we were looking for.”
Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Hilary Benn)
No. We are committed to implementing the Windsor framework in good faith in partnership with the EU, and to taking all steps necessary to protect the UK internal market. We are also looking to negotiate a sanitary and phytosanitary veterinary agreement with the EU, which could help.
Sir Desmond Swayne
Will the Secretary of State commit to all the provisions of the “Safeguarding the Union” agreement?
Hilary Benn
I already set out my answer to that in response to the hon. Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Alex Burghart). We are taking forward those commitments, but we can make progress by working in partnership with the European Union. What was achieved recently on dental amalgam is a good example of precisely that.
Dr Neil Hudson (Epping Forest) (Con)
Emily Darlington (Milton Keynes Central) (Lab)
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Hilary Benn)
A fortnight ago, the Minister and I met the Tánaiste Micheál Martin in Hillsborough, where we discussed strengthening relations between our two Governments, given the importance of our relationship with Ireland. The Prime Minister and the Taoiseach also held a bilateral meeting ahead of the European Political Community meeting last week.
Dr Gardner
Duchess China, which I believe are the suppliers of your excellent commemorative china service, Mr Speaker, is based in my constituency. The Republic of Ireland is an important export market for the company, and Northern Ireland is an important part of its domestic market. How will relations across the Irish sea and the Northern Ireland-Ireland border be enhanced for the benefit of companies such as Duchess China?
Hilary Benn
I congratulate my hon. Friend on the company that she mentioned and the products that it produces. We are committed to protecting the integrity of the UK internal market, so that great firms in Great Britain and in Northern Ireland are able to sell right across the United Kingdom and internationally. Northern Ireland in particular has extraordinary opportunities and so much potential, which we need to build on. One of the most important contributions that the Executive can make is to ensure stability, because that is what investors are looking for.
Emily Darlington
I congratulate my right hon. Friend on his position, and I hope that he will be able to rebuild those relations that were strained through the Brexit process. Small and medium-sized business in Milton Keynes Central have gone under because of the additional paperwork and restrictions caused by our strained relations with the EU. Will he confirm that he is talking to the Irish Government and others about how to reduce those barriers to trade?
Hilary Benn
There is no doubt that the change in our trading relationship with the European Union has brought additional costs and paperwork for businesses, whether they are selling to the EU or into Northern Ireland. The Windsor framework is the means by which we are trying to manage that. I supported the Windsor framework, negotiated by the previous Government, because it represented an important and significant step forward. The reason why we have to continue to implement it is because if we are going to get the veterinary and SPS agreement, and other agreements we are seeking with the European Union—
Simon Hoare (North Dorset) (Con)
The Anglo-Irish agreement is absolutely vital, and the meeting between the Prime Minister and the Taoiseach is to be welcomed. Prime Ministers’ diaries become very full; will the Secretary of State use his good offices to ensure that that dialogue between Taoiseach and Prime Minister continues to build on that relationship to see it flourish still further?
Hilary Benn
I can indeed give that assurance. My right hon. and learned Friend the Prime Minister has agreed there will be an annual summit.
Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)
Does the Secretary of State agree with me that it is important that, in discussions with the Irish Government, they understand that the vast majority of people in Northern Ireland, whether they consider themselves to be British, Irish or Northern Irish, can see that it is the United Kingdom context that allows them that diversity, and that improving the lives of present generations is the best way to preserve the lives of everyone for the future?
Hilary Benn
I join the hon. Gentleman in that commitment to improving the lives of the people of Northern Ireland. As a Government, we are committed to working on that with him and all his colleagues in Northern Ireland.
Mr Speaker
I welcome the Prime Minister, the Leader of the Opposition and all new Members to the first questions to the Prime Minister in this Parliament.
Government’s Legislative Programme: Northern Ireland
Hilary Benn Excerpts(4 months ago)
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The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Hilary Benn)
The UK Government’s legislative programme for the first Session was set out at the state opening of Parliament on 17 July 2024. This statement summarises the programme and how it applies to Northern Ireland. It does not include draft Bills, Law Commission Bills, or Finance Bills.
This Government aim to deliver for working people, their families and communities across the UK. This legislative programme sets out some of our first steps to begin rebuilding the UK.
Our programme will deliver economic stability and kick-start growth. We will bring forward legislation to protect public funds and set up a national wealth fund, which will make transformative investments across every part of the country.
We will establish a new, publicly-owned clean energy company, GB Energy, which will give the UK real energy security. GB Energy will make investments across the UK.
We will prevent ill health by passing landmark legislation to pave the way for a smoke-free UK.
We will work with all political parties and communities in Northern Ireland to ensure the stability of devolved government and to improve public services and the sustainability of public finances. We will continue to implement the Windsor framework in good faith and protect Northern Ireland’s place in the UK internal market.
We will champion Northern Ireland as a place to invest around the world, and we will work with the Executive to encourage greater business investment and take forward discussions on a fiscal framework.
As a guarantor of the Good Friday agreement, the UK Government are committed to upholding the agreement both in letter and spirit: this includes the principle of consent upon which the agreement rests. Keeping the agreement’s approach, and acknowledging the close relationship between our two countries, we will strengthen the bilateral relationship with the Irish Government. A close partnership presents many opportunities for our respective countries.
The UK Government are committed to addressing legacy issues in a way that commands the support of communities, and complies with our human rights obligations. In consultation with all parties, measures will be brought forward to begin the process of repealing and replacing the Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Act 2023.
We will reset relationships between the Government and the Northern Ireland Executive, by strengthening the Sewel convention through a new memorandum of understanding, and work together for the common good.
The following Bills will extend and apply to Northern Ireland, either in full or in part:
Arbitration Bill
Armed Forces Commissioner Bill
Budget Responsibility Bill
Banking Resolution (Recapitalisation) Bill
Border Security, Asylum and Immigration Bill
Commonwealth Parliamentary Association and International Committee of the Red Cross Bill
Cyber Security and Resilience Bill
Digital Information and Smart Data Bill
Hillsborough Law
Great British Energy Bill
House of Lords (Hereditary Peers) Bill
Lords Spiritual (Women) Act 2015 (Extension) Bill
National Wealth Fund Bill
Product Safety and Metrology Bill
Sustainable Aviation Fuel (Revenue Support Mechanism) Bill
Terrorism (Protection of Premises) Bill
The Crown Estate Bill
Tobacco and Vapes Bill
The UK Government will work collaboratively with the Northern Ireland Executive to secure the legislative consent of the Assembly where appropriate.
[HCWS10]
Northern Ireland
Hilary Benn Excerpts(8 months, 3 weeks ago)
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Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)
Whether this Humble Address is or is not a love letter to anyone, I will leave for others to debate, but it certainly can be described as a coda to the recent restoration of the institutions in Northern Ireland. As we have heard from the Minister, it addresses a number of matters that I shall briefly touch upon, but may I make it clear at the beginning that the Opposition will be supporting it?
This is our first opportunity as a House to welcome the return of devolved government, and I wish to acknowledge the leadership of the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson) in recognising that, for the sake of Northern Ireland and its people, the DUP needed to return to government, and in arguing the case for that course of action so persuasively. The Secretary of State and I have both had the pleasure of meeting the new First Minister and Deputy First Minister. I must say that I agree with the Minister of State, the right hon. Member for Wycombe (Mr Baker), that they have made a positive start and have set the tone for what we all hope will be a constructive and productive Administration. I join him in wishing both of them, together with the other members of the Executive and indeed the whole Assembly, every success in their responsibilities, because their task—our task, collectively—is to ensure that this restoration endures. Let us be frank, however. I hope people will also recognise that never again should Northern Ireland find itself without its Assembly and its devolved Government.
It is also right that we reaffirm our support for the Good Friday agreement in all its strands and dimensions. It is important for us to do so, because the agreement made possible the considerable progress we have seen in Northern Ireland, including the establishment of power sharing. That reaffirming is also needed because there was a perception that some of the language in the recent Command Paper was not wholly in keeping with the spirit of shared commitment.
I will raise one section of the Command Paper that I found genuinely puzzling, which is what it said about the all-island economy and the Government’s commitment to remove the legal duties to have regard to the all-island economy in section 10(1)(b) of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018. That section of the withdrawal Act actually refers to having
“due regard to the joint report from the negotiators of the EU and the United Kingdom Government on progress during phase 1 of negotiations under Article 50”
on the United Kingdom’s orderly withdrawal from the EU. The report runs to 15 pages, but there appears, as far as I can see, to be only one reference in it to the all-island economy, in the last two lines of paragraph 49.
In responding, can the Minister explain what the effect would be of repealing section 10(1)(b) of the 2018 Act, given that it refers to the whole of the joint report, and not just to the reference in paragraph 49 to the all-island economy? Does that mean Ministers would no longer have to have regard to anything at all in the joint report —surely that cannot be the case—or are the Government saying that they wish to remove the reference to the all-island economy in paragraph 49? In that case, given that it was a joint report agreed between the United Kingdom and the European Union, have Ministers told the EU of their intentions? To follow up, when might we see the legislation and the new statutory guidance?
No one is in any doubt that Northern Ireland does far more trade with the UK internal market than it does with Ireland, and that will continue to be the case, but it is also evident that trade between Northern Ireland and the Republic has increased since we left the European Union. That tells us that the all-island economy is both a fact and greatly to the benefit of businesses and people in Northern Ireland, whether that is milk from Northern Ireland going south to be processed, or Coca-Cola produced in the firm’s flagship plant in Lisburn being sold all over Ireland and beyond, or Guinness coming north from Dublin.
Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)
The right hon. Gentleman has rightly identified one of the impacts of the Windsor framework and the Northern Ireland protocol: namely, that trade is now being diverted to the Irish Republic, as firms in Northern Ireland find it more difficult to link with their supply chains in GB and are forced to look at supplies from the Irish Republic. Some of the people who are now purchasing from the Republic tell me that those supplies are more expensive and of lower quality.
Hilary Benn
The first point I would make to the right hon. Gentleman is that the three examples I have just given have nothing at all to do with the Northern Ireland protocol or the Windsor framework; they were all pre-existing facts of the all-island economy, which those businesses welcomed because it is about the ability to trade, find markets, sell their goods and make a return. Secondly, he returns, understandably, to the essential problem that the protocol and the Windsor framework have been trying to address, and it is the point that the Minister made openly in his speech, which is that once we left the EU, there was an issue about the border. One way or another, a way had to be found to ensure that goods moving across that non-existent border complied with the rules of the single market. The current Government under a previous Prime Minister made a choice as to how it was going to be done. I strongly support the Windsor framework, precisely because it is an important step forward in trying to make that trade, as the Minister referred to, as easy as possible for businesses. I make that point because many businesses do not really understand why the phrase “all-island economy” should provoke such strong feelings, especially when there has recently been a warm welcome to the allocations from the shared island fund for cross-community projects that will strengthen the all-island economy, including the much-needed improvement to the A5, a more regular train service between Belfast and Dublin, the Narrow Water bridge connecting the counties of Down and Meath, and a contribution to the building of Casement Park so that, in four years, we can all celebrate Northern Ireland helping to host the European football championship. I make that point because many businesses do not really understand why the phrase “all-island economy” should provoke such strong feelings, especially when there has recently been a warm welcome to the allocations from the shared island fund for cross-community projects that will strengthen the all-island economy, including the much-needed improvement to the A5, a more regular train service between Belfast and Dublin, the Narrow Water bridge connecting the counties of Down and Meath, and a contribution to the building of Casement Park so that, in four years, we can all celebrate Northern Ireland helping to host the European football championship.
Nevertheless, we warmly endorse the renewed commitment to the Good Friday agreement contained in the Humble Address, which of course was the then Government’s extraordinary achievement with all the parties involved in the negotiation almost 26 years ago. It is only right that we should remind ourselves as a country of the peace that it has created and of the obligations we took on when we signed it. That includes, as the Minister said, recognition that the future constitutional status of Northern Ireland is a matter for the people of Northern Ireland alone, and that with our co-guarantor, the Irish Government, we have a shared interest in continuing to promote peace, prosperity and progress north and south.
On the next section, when I read the Humble Address I wondered in passing when the Acts of Union 1800 were last referred to in a motion tabled by the Government. In the light of recent events, I felt that I should familiarise myself with the original Acts, although they have, of course, been considerably amended since. The Act of Union (Ireland) 1800 is short by modern standards—they knew how to say things much more briefly than we seem to manage these days—and contains a number of interesting provisions, including the application of tariffs and excise on certain categories of goods moving between Great Britain and Ireland. The right hon. Member for Lagan Valley raised that point with me when we debated the matter recently.
Now, I do not think anyone wants to restore tariffs and excise on certain categories of goods moving, and I do not think anyone wants to restore section 21 of the Government of Ireland Act 1920, which required that movement of goods between Great Britain and Northern Ireland be treated as imports and exports for the purposes of forms to be used and the information to be furnished. As we were told, customs officers were instructed to conduct physical inspections of ships with daily sailings twice weekly. How many people even recall that, in 1947, the Stormont Parliament introduced a requirement that workers from Great Britain would need a work permit to go and work in Northern Ireland?
Those are not just interesting historical facts. As the Command Paper’s informative annex pointed out—congratulations to the civil servants who did the research and drafted that—the Acts of Union have not been a guarantor at all times of free and unfettered movements of goods and people over the centuries. Instead, they have framed a slightly more complex relationship than is sometimes suggested.
Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson
The shadow Secretary of State is absolutely right. That is why, in our seven tests, we talked about fulfilling the Acts of Union, while others—those who had not bothered to read the original Acts of Union, who did not know what they were talking about, who seek to rewrite history and who declare themselves as the champions of Unionism but do not know their facts—talked about restoring something, which would mean customs checks on goods moving between Northern Ireland and Great Britain, and tariffs on goods manufactured in Northern Ireland being sold in Great Britain. That is the kind of nonsense that our detractors daily pump out. They should check their facts, know their history and understand what they are talking about.
Hilary Benn
May I say to the right hon. Gentleman that we have just had a wonderful example of the persuasive power of his argument? Whoever we are, and whatever view we hold, getting the facts right is really quite basic to doing our job in this place. That is why it is important—especially in the context of Northern Ireland—to get those facts right.
I turn to the last part of the Humble Address, which is simply talking about facts. It states the fact that this House retains the right to legislate in respect of Northern Ireland, and it is simply a fact that the Good Friday agreement and the Northern Ireland Act 1998 do not provide for joint authority with the Irish Government over what happens inside Northern Ireland. That is also acknowledged by the Irish Government. But, at the same time—I welcome what the Minister said—we must do all we can to foster and strengthen the shared institutions established under strand 3 of the Good Friday agreement, not least because we have made most progress on this difficult matter when we have had a close working relationship with the Irish Government.
In conclusion, returning to the first section of the Humble Address, may I simply say that I look forward to working with all—and I mean all—Members of the House and of the Northern Ireland Assembly, and also with the Executive, as together we turn our minds to the task in hand, which is now simply to build a brighter and a better future for the people of Northern Ireland?
Hilary Benn
On the issues about which the right hon. Gentleman complains, it pains me to say it but they were put in place because the House of Commons voted to pass the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018. It is not correct to say that they are enforced upon Northern Ireland by the EU of its own volition; they were arrangements that the House decided should be put in place because the people of the UK had voted to leave the European Union. That, too, is a fact.
Sammy Wilson
That vote was made in this House on two grounds. First, the EU made its terms clear and we had a spineless Government that were prepared to bow to it, saying that if those arrangements were not put in place, there would be no deal. Weighing up the impact that might have on the rest of the United Kingdom and the impact it would have on Northern Ireland, the Government decided that Northern Ireland would be the sacrificial lamb. Secondly, we were told at that time, as was this House and businesses in Northern Ireland, “Don’t worry,” and were promised, “You’ll get some bits of paper but just tear them up, or give the Prime Minister a ring and he’ll make sure you don’t have to worry about them.” I accept that the decision was made by this House, but it was made on that basis, and the fact is it still had a detrimental impact on Northern Ireland.
Changes have been made by the Windsor framework, the Northern Ireland protocol and the “Safeguarding the Union” document, but the economic foundational importance of the Act of Union is still being undermined. We are told that 20% of goods still have to go through a red lane. Most of those goods go to manufacturing businesses or distributors in Northern Ireland, in many cases because they are parts of products that will eventually be sold. The businesses will still be subject to checks because the product has not been made—it is only parts coming in—and because of the eventual destination of the products, even though most businesses can say, “Look, we sell in Northern Ireland, outside EU or to GB”.
I spoke to a businessman this morning who informed me that the situation is going to get worse. The paperwork for the last order he got for goods coming through the red lane took six hours. When people are working on very thin margins, that additional work makes them question whether to invest further in Northern Ireland or to jump over the border to the Irish Republic, so the red lane requirements have a huge economic impact.
Even the UK internal market requirements are at the gift of the EU, because the EU still has control of trade that comes from GB into Northern Ireland through regulations 2023/1231 and 2023/1128. If the EU deems at any stage that the arrangements for the internal market lane do not meet its requirements, the ultimate say as to what happens to those movements of trade will remain with the EU and it can go back to the default position with 100% checks. I note that those two regulations have not been removed by the EU as a result of “Safeguarding the Union”. The EU still holds that control, which is worrying for businesses in Northern Ireland. The Humble Address is all about telling His Majesty that the foundational importance of the Act of Union will be respected and is being respected by the Government, but that is just not true.
My final point is about the part of the Humble Address that says that
“executive power in Northern Ireland shall continue to be vested in His Majesty, and that joint authority is not provided for in the Belfast (Good Friday) Agreement 1998 in respect of the UK and Irish Governments.”
There is no definition of “joint authority”. In the past, Ministers have stood at the Dispatch Box and told us there has been no change in the constitutional position of Northern Ireland as a result of the protocol and the Windsor framework, and Northern Ireland was still fully part of the United Kingdom. Words can mean whatever they want, it seems, when the Government find themselves challenged by the agreement they have made with the EU.
I trust that the Government will not accede to some of the demands that have been made. In his intervention, the hon. Member for North Down said that he wanted a review of the Belfast agreement. That would open all kinds of doors. If he had his way, the review would be based on a majority view of what should happen in the future. The removal of the consent principle and the majority vote in the Assembly is what he and his friends in Sinn Féin and the SDLP are aiming for now. Unionists are now a minority, so majoritarianism is no longer a problem.
Mr Steve Baker
With the leave of the House, I rise to close the debate on this Humble Address, and I am very grateful to everyone who has participated in it.
This is a Unionist Government, and we are steadfast in our belief that the best future for Northern Ireland will always be as an integral part of a strong and prosperous United Kingdom, even as we respect the legitimate rights of others to pursue another outcome. We are the most successful political and economic Union in the world, something with which a majority of Members of this House would agree. This debate has reiterated the unwavering support for the Union across the House. We have reaffirmed the importance of upholding the Belfast/Good Friday agreement in all its strands. We have acknowledged the foundational importance of the Acts of Union 1800, including the economic provisions under article 6—much as I listened to the words of some Members opposite—and we have recognised that joint authority is not provided for in the Belfast/Good Friday agreement in respect of the UK and Irish Governments.
I am most grateful to the shadow Secretary of State, the right hon. Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn), for his speech. We are united in congratulating the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson), and we are absolutely united in wishing the First Minister and Deputy First Minister every success in their endeavours. It has been said several times by the shadow Secretary of State and others, but “never again”, and I think we are all united in our hope that never again will Northern Ireland go without an Executive.
The shadow Secretary of State mentioned the all-island economy, which is a matter that has particular sensitivity for DUP Members, and made reference to the joint report. He asked about the effect of repealing the relevant section. As he knows, the joint report and its provisions predated our departure from the EU. Now that we have left the EU, the withdrawal agreement makes provision in fulfilment of many of those matters. The joint report to which the shadow Secretary of State referred has been superseded by the withdrawal agreement and by the trade and co-operation agreement. Of course, I know I have not taught him anything he did not know already. At the moment, we are of course in regular dialogue with the EU, and as far as we are aware, the EU is satisfied with the way we are proceeding. What I would say to him is that, at the moment, I have no reason to believe there will be any significant consequences of the repeal of that section.
Hilary Benn
I am very grateful to the Minister for that explanation, and of course I am aware that the joint report predated the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, but if it was in effect rendered redundant by that Act, why did that Act make specific provision to have regard to the joint report?
Mr Baker
Elements were relevant at the time, as the Secretary of State has just mentioned to me, but, alas, I was not the relevant Minister at the time. I did the European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Act 2020, not the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018. However, if I am advised otherwise by officials after this debate, I shall certainly write to the shadow Secretary of State and place a copy of the letter in the Library of the House. I am not expecting to be advised that there would be significant consequences, but I shall certainly take advice.
I particularly appreciated the shadow Secretary of State’s exegesis of the Acts of Union. I am not a great historian, and I appreciated his running through those things. We are of course all absolutely united in our desire for a better future for Northern Ireland.
The hon. Member for Gordon (Richard Thomson) welcomed the compromise and the pragmatism of everyone involved. I do not think I will tease him, as he has teased me, on that particular point. He made a very thoughtful speech about people’s ability to indicate their consent or otherwise to membership of a particular state, and he raises some important matters that I will not have time to go into.
I particularly appreciated, of course, the leader of the DUP’s speech. I think this is a very good day for Unionism. Speaking as an English MP, even though I have been choosing to go to Northern Island since 2013, it is very easy as an English MP to neglect the Union. What we have seen through this process is that the whole Government and the whole House have come far more deeply to appreciate the need to nurture the Union. I think today is a good day for the Union, and I think the right hon. Gentleman and his right hon. and hon. Friends have done a service to the whole Union by highlighting these issues and forcing us all to confront the need to nurture the Union, even if, as I think it is fair to say, it is not one of the most prominent issues in English constituencies. I certainly pay tribute to him and his DUP colleagues for what they have achieved.
As the right hon. Gentleman made a point about the red lane, and the need to improve further and move more goods out of it, which I am absolutely all for doing, I think it is worth reminding everyone of who voted for the Northern Ireland Protocol Bill. I believe everyone in the DUP voted for the Bill.
Northern Ireland
Hilary Benn Excerpts(9 months, 2 weeks ago)
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Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)
I am grateful to the Secretary of State for his explanation of the first set of regulations that we are considering, and I join him in wanting to see the institutions up and running again as soon as possible. I welcome the measures, and the Opposition will support them.
Ever since our leaving the EU created the problems that have caused Northern Ireland to be without a Government for two years, we have been trying as a nation to find a common-sense way through. The SIs are a continuation of that process to balance two objectives: first, to enable the free flow of trade between Northern Ireland and Great Britain; and secondly, to make sure that goods that enter the Republic across the open border meet the single market rules.
We should note the further commitments, to which reference has been made, contained in the Command Paper published yesterday. We look forward to regulations and guidance to implement them where required, perhaps with a little bit more time to read them, although I understand completely and support the timetable we are dealing with today.
I commend the right hon. Member for Skipton and Ripon (Julian Smith) for drawing the House’s attention to the annex of the Command Paper on the history. I certainly learned some things from reading it. I have heard the argument that there was always free and unfettered trade and now that has changed, only to discover that the Government of Ireland Act 1920 required that the movement of goods between Great Britain and Northern Ireland be treated as exports and imports, and that customs officers were instructed to conduct physical inspections of ships and daily sailings twice weekly, at a check rate of 28%. It is a jolly good idea to understand one’s history when trying to deal with the problems of the future.
Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson
Some suggest that the Acts of Union should be as they were in 1801, but my hon. Friend the Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley) would be perplexed to discover that a bottle of Bushmills whiskey distilled in his constituency would have a £3 tariff added to it to be sold in Great Britain—the rest of the United Kingdom. Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that we certainly do not want to go back to that?
Hilary Benn
I am a teetotaller, so perhaps I do not feel the suffering in that example in the same way as other Members. However, the right hon. Gentleman is an observant student of Northern Ireland history, and he makes his point extremely forcefully.
Sammy Wilson
Does the right hon. Member recognise the difference between a tariff being put on by this Parliament or the Assembly or a Parliament in Northern Ireland, where the people of the country elect representatives who take a decision on tariffs that act as an impediment to trade, and a tariff imposed by an outside body such as the EU, which is the case in Northern Ireland? That is how the Act of Union is being disrupted, because an outside body can interfere with it.
Hilary Benn
We have seen quite a lot of disruption to arrangements in recent years, have we not? The point I tried to make a moment ago was that our departure from the European Union caused a problem. Everybody knew that there would be a problem between Northern Ireland and the Republic, because of the open border that everyone continued to support. I think I said last week that it was about the only thing in Brexit where there was agreement. If there is a problem, we have to find a way through it. What we are grappling with here, and have done previously and may do in the future, is how to solve that problem, which is the result of a democratic decision taken by the British people.
Turning to these particular regulations, part of them updates previous legislation to include references to the Windsor framework, which came after those pieces of legislation, or reaffirms for clarity the existing legal position. I welcome the prohibition made by regulation 2(3) of any agreement with the EU that would
“create a…regulatory border between Great Britain and Northern Ireland.”
However, if we were to form the next Government, Labour would seek to negotiate a sanitary and phytosanitary agreement with the EU with the intention of removing checks on animals, food and plants, not only between GB and NI, but between the whole of the UK and the EU. That would benefit farmers, food businesses, the horticultural industry in Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom.
Regulation 3 amends section 7A of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act to include a reference to the Stormont brake procedure and the democratic consent vote. I note that the Secretary of State said that the Windsor Framework (Democratic Scrutiny) Regulations 2023 passed by Parliament last March, which I think he said he had signed, will take effect once the Assembly is back up and running.
Hilary Benn
I see that the Secretary of State is nodding. It is also important to remind ourselves of the significance of those regulations and the democratic checks that they will create. The Stormont brake will be available to the Assembly when the EU seeks to amend or replace existing EU goods legislation in annex 2 of the framework. The Windsor framework gives a new role to the Assembly to approve or reject any proposed new EU legislation being added to the framework. I note that page 47 of the Command Paper states that the full operational details for the Stormont brake will be set out “in writing” for the Assembly. Can the Secretary of State confirm when that will happen and what form it will take, so that we in the House can see it?
Sir William Cash
Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that there is a distinction between new and amended legislation in this context? They are not by any means the same thing, particularly as amended legislation can be very extensive.
Hilary Benn
I take that point, but we are talking about two separate categories: one is a long list relating to the legislation that formed part of the original protocol in the annex; and the other relates to new stuff coming from the European Union.
Stephen Farry
Does the shadow Secretary of State recognise that there is a different school of thought from some people and businesses in Northern Ireland around the Stormont brake? If there is a degree of delay or uncertainty in the application of an updated EU regulation, that could inadvertently undermine Northern Ireland’s dual market access, by creating uncertainty for businesses seeking to invest or remain in Northern Ireland. By far the better way is for Northern Ireland institutions to talk to the European Union at the start, to make sure that our concerns are reflected as fresh EU law is undertaken or updated.
Hilary Benn
The hon. Member makes an extremely powerful and useful point. The businesses that I have spoken to in Northern Ireland support Northern Ireland’s access to the EU market. In choosing to pull or not pull the Stormont brake there are many considerations, which I am sure elected politicians in Northern Ireland will take into consideration. Let us be honest: it depends on what we are talking about. What impact will it have? Will it have a really bad effect, in which case people might reach for the brake? Other times it may be a perfectly sensible change and nobody needs to worry about it. But there is a mechanism that gives Northern Ireland politicians and the Assembly the chance to decide between the two.
John Redwood
Further to that point, which is a very good one, would the EU not decide to use its powers if Stormont tried to use the brake too often and change the amount of EU law that applied?
Hilary Benn
The Stormont brake was the result of a negotiation between the Government and the European Union. It was a really big step forward—it is why we are having this discussion now, and I support it. Anything is possible in the future with regard to what one or another party that is engaged in continuing discussions and negotiations may seek to do, but we have a deal with the European Union and it expects us to honour the Windsor framework—a point I have made in the House many times before—and we would expect the EU to do entirely the same. Nobody can guard with absolute certainty against what may happen in the future; we have to deal with the world as it is today.
Julian Smith
What people have missed over the past few weeks is the cross-party support for both the Windsor framework and this deal. The reality is that anybody campaigning, or continuing to campaign, against the decisions democratically taken by the Democratic Unionist party is campaigning against something that this House has supported in voting numbers I could have only dreamed of when I was the Government Chief Whip during Brexit. This House supports the Windsor framework and the deal secured by the Secretary of State and the Prime Minister.
Hilary Benn
The right hon. Gentleman makes an extremely powerful point. I hope everyone will notice the near—if not complete—unanimity that we will see reflected in the House today. Those who wish to rail against reality and the fact that we have to make choices and deal with issues as they arise, as the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson) has so eloquently pointed out, achieve nothing and contribute nothing. What the House is trying to do is to take this forward and, crucially, to restore the institutions.
Sir Edward Leigh
I am not trying to rail against reality; I am just seeking the truth. Would it be a fair summing-up of the Labour party’s position that it is supremely relaxed about all these future trading arrangements because, if there is to be a Labour Government, they will have absolutely no intention of diverging further away from the EU from a deregulatory point of view? If the right hon. Gentleman becomes Secretary of State, there is no danger that any civil servant will say, “Minister, be careful about this.” Labour is very relaxed about this matter. It is going to get closer and closer to the EU, isn’t it?
Hilary Benn
It is very kind of the right hon. Gentleman to say that we are intensely relaxed about the prospect that we might form the next Government, and who am I to disagree with him in that observation?
The point about divergence is that it is a choice. It is striking to note the number of instances since we left the European Union when the current Government decided that they were going to diverge, and then suddenly had second thoughts about it because it did not really make a lot of sense. I make no apology for having given the example of the veterinary SPS agreement that we would like to reach, because it would help our businesses in the UK, businesses in Northern Ireland and businesses in the European Union. That is my definition of common-sense negotiation—the decision has been made, but that does not mean Britain cannot seek to improve the relationship we have with the European Union in our interests and the interests of our European neighbours.
I also welcome regulation 3(3), which would require a Minister before the Second Reading of a Bill containing provisions that would affect trade between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom either to make a statement that it would not have such an effect, or to set out the reasons why the Government want to proceed none the less. It may be difficult at this stage, but I wonder whether the Secretary of State in winding up could give us an example of the circumstances in which Ministers might want to make use of the provisions in proposed new section 13C(2)(b) to the European Union (Withdrawal) Act, found at the top of page 4 of the regulations. In other words, in what circumstances would the Government want to proceed with legislation even though it would have an adverse effect?
I welcome the clarifications made in regulation 4 regarding any independent review that may follow the democratic consent vote. That vote by Assembly Members must take place, as I understand it, by the end of this year. Has the Secretary of State had any discussions with Northern Ireland political parties as to when, exactly, that vote might take place, or does he intend to do so, or is it entirely a matter for those parties?
I will return in the subsequent debate to the matters I wish to raise on the UK internal market regulations, Madam Deputy Speaker. I now bring my remarks to a close.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
There is obviously a big time pressure on this debate. I want to bring the Secretary of State back in at 1.49 pm, so I urge colleagues to be brief if they possibly can. I call the Chair of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee.
United Kingdom Internal Market
Hilary Benn Excerpts(9 months, 2 weeks ago)
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Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)
I begin by agreeing with the Minister that businesses in Northern Ireland want to make the current and future arrangements work, that they want them to work well and that there is huge potential for the people of Northern Ireland in the economic benefits that its current and future circumstances provide it.
I have some specific points about the regulations— I see the Minister clearly relishes responding to those. Paragraph 81 of the Command Paper states:
“We are now changing arrangements…to ensure…that checks are eliminated save for those conducted by UK authorities needed for the protection of the UK’s internal market on a risk and intelligence basis.
Will the Minister clarify which checks on goods moving from Great Britain to Northern Ireland will be got rid of? Is he referring to identity checks, checks on paperwork or something else? At the moment, about 10% of goods using what is called the green lane—which will become the UK internal market lane—are subject to some checks on paperwork. Will he clarify what will happen to them?
I welcome the amendments to the UK Internal Market Act 2020 provided for in regulation 2. Proposed new section 45A would reaffirm Northern Ireland’s unfettered access to the rest of the internal market and ensure that no new NI-GB checks can be introduced. The regulation also makes provision for the Secretary of State to issue guidance to Departments on how they should carry out their duties under section 46 of the 2020 Act—namely, ensuring that they have special regard to, among other things, Northern Ireland’s status in the UK internal market when they formulate policy. Will the Minister confirm that guidance will soon be forthcoming and share any further details he can at this stage about what that will contain?
I note the changes to the Definition of Qualifying Northern Ireland Goods (EU Exit) Regulations 2020 made by regulation 3, which are intended to prevent Northern Ireland from being used as a back door for EU goods moving into GB and to protect Northern Ireland’s agricultural sector. Ensuring that NI-registered agrifood operators fully benefit from unfettered access is a very positive step and I welcome it. Will the Minister tell the House whether the Government envisage any further changes to the definition of qualifying Northern Ireland goods? I also note the Government’s confirmation in the Command Paper that
“there will be no Border Control Post at Cairnryan.”
That is greatly to be welcomed, but can the Minister say anything further about how checks and formalities on non-qualifying goods that enter GB from Northern Ireland through Cairnryan will work in practice?
Let me turn to some of the other commitments set out in the Command Paper. Will the Minister confirm when he expects the new body announced to promote trade within the UK, InterTrade UK, to become operational, and how it will be overseen?
I welcome the Government’s determination, which has been brought up by a number of Members, to ensure the continued supply of veterinary medicines into Northern Ireland beyond the end of 2025, when the current grace period expires. We all hope that an agreement can be reached with our European partners as soon as possible. I share the view expressed by others in the debate that we had the same problem with human medicines and, in the end, the EU recognised that something had to be done about that. I hope very much that the EU will show the same spirit in approaching this question. The Command Paper, however, says:
“we will if necessary deploy all available flexibilities to safeguard and sustain the supply of veterinary medicines”.
Will the Minister tell the House what those flexibilities are and how they will be applied if we get to that point?
In approving the regulations—which I hope we will do unanimously as we just did with the constitutional set—we will be taking another step closer, in this really important week, to the restoration of power sharing. The people of Northern Ireland, who have been without a Government for so long, may not, in all fairness, be studying the regulations in the way that we are doing today, but they very clearly understand why they are essential to getting their Government back. Once we have done our bit today, it will be over to the politicians of Northern Ireland, and I am sure that every single Member of the House wishes them the very best in the task that lies ahead of them.