(1 day, 14 hours ago)
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Luke Murphy (Basingstoke) (Lab)
Gareth Snell (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab/Co-op)
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Hilary Benn)
The 2023 legacy Act was rejected by our domestic courts, as well as by victims and survivors across Northern Ireland, not least because it proposed giving immunity from prosecution for the most appalling terrorist crimes. Any incoming Government would have had to fix this mess, and that is what this Government are seeking to do with the Northern Ireland Troubles Bill, which we published yesterday.
Luke Murphy
I thank the Secretary of State for his answer and for his remarks in yesterday’s statement about the professionalism, bravery and sacrifice of our armed forces and veterans, including those who live in my constituency of Basingstoke, in their roles in Northern Ireland, across the UK and abroad. What discussions has he had with veterans, the Defence Secretary and the Minister for Veterans and People on the new provisions and protections in the new legislation?
Hilary Benn
I have had many such discussions, as I indicated in my statement to the House yesterday, and those have informed the package of veterans protections contained in the Bill, which the Government have set out.
Gareth Snell
When the unlawful legacy Act shut down 200 investigations into the deaths of British soldiers, people across the country, including in my constituency, will have thought that was desperately unfair, and not just on those individuals but on the families and victims. Can the Secretary of State assure me and my constituents that under the new legacy Act there will be opportunities for those victims finally to get the justice they deserve?
Hilary Benn
There certainly will, because with the commission as it is now and with the commission as it will be reformed by the troubles Bill, any incident relating to the troubles anywhere in the United Kingdom can be referred into the commission. The M62 coach bombing, the Kingsmill massacre and the Warrenpoint massacre are all currently the subject of investigation by the commission.
Sir Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con)
Many families are desperate for answers about what happened to their loved ones. That is often not about wanting to take legal action; they just want to know. Under this new Bill, how quickly will that be delivered for those families? How quickly will they get the information that they have waited decades to receive?
Hilary Benn
I know from my discussions with the commission that it is working hard with the 100 or so cases that it is already dealing with to go through that process and start producing reports for families. We know that many families have decided not to engage with the commission because they objected to the legacy Act and, in particular, to the immunity it was proposing to give. That is why we are removing that. I encourage more families to come forward, because I know that the commission and its staff are determined to try to provide the answers that those families seek.
David Davis (Goole and Pocklington) (Con)
The Secretary of State’s allegations about the legacy Act rest on a fiction that the Labour Government have not already handed out amnesties to all those terrorist killers. Two facts need to be put in front of the House. One is from the Good Friday agreement, which
“put in place mechanisms to provide for an accelerated programme for the release of prisoners…convicted of scheduled offences”.
That is one half of the amnesty. The other half is the comfort letters, and the right place to look there is the judge’s ruling in the Downey case, which shot down any future prosecutions. The judge said—I will read it carefully—that there is a
“public interest in holding officials of the state to promises they have made in full understanding of what is involved in the bargain. Hence I have concluded that this is one of those rare cases in which, in the particular circumstances, it offends the court’s sense of justice and propriety to be asked to try the defendant.”
In other words, it is an amnesty, whether the Government like it or not.
Hilary Benn
On the first issue that the right hon. Gentleman raises, for anyone who was serving a sentence for a troubles-related offence, part of the Good Friday agreement was that they were released after two years. The people of Northern Ireland voted for that by about 70%. It was part of the agreement. On his second point, there were specific issues in the case of Mr Downey, because he had been given a letter that said he was not wanted when in fact he was. That is why that prosecution could not proceed. The right hon. Gentleman’s point is undermined by the fact that Mr Downey—this is a matter of public record—is currently facing prosecution for two counts of murder in 1972. It therefore cannot be the case that any letter he received gave him an amnesty.
Tonia Antoniazzi (Gower) (Lab)
A number of the core provisions of the previous Government’s legacy Act have been deemed by the Northern Ireland courts to be incompatible with our human rights obligations. Does the Secretary of State agree that it is little wonder that the legislation was so widely opposed, and does this not make the task of repealing and replacing it even more important?
Hilary Benn
It certainly does make it more important, because it is a piece of legislation that has not worked and did not command support in Northern Ireland. If legislation is passed in this House that does not command support in Northern Ireland, how on earth can we expect the answers that families are seeking, which the right hon. Member for Skipton and Ripon (Sir Julian Smith) referred to a moment ago, to be provided? We have a responsibility to give more people in Northern Ireland confidence in the new arrangement so that they will come forward to get the answers they have been seeking.
Jim Allister (North Antrim) (TUV)
The Secretary of State has done much to talk up the alleged special provisions in relation to ex-servicemen, but legally is it not the case that any such provisions would have to apply across the board? If I am wrong about that, will the Secretary of State now tell the House which special provisions apply exclusively and only to servicemen?
Hilary Benn
The provisions that apply exclusively and only to service personnel are: first, the arrangements to prevent cold calling—a protocol will be agreed with the commission in relation to that—and secondly, not being required to rehearse the history when the Ministry of Defence would be perfectly capable of providing that information. The hon. and learned Gentleman, being a distinguished lawyer, will know that, in respect to other arrangements for witnesses, the law requires that they are available to all witnesses.
Colum Eastwood (Foyle) (SDLP)
Many families have been struggling and campaigning for years for truth and justice, and they are now hopeful that we can get to the truth. We know that MI5 admitted only a few months ago that it had not given all of the files over to Operation Kenova. I am also aware that there are many Northern Ireland Office and MOD files that have not yet gone through the freedom of information process and are therefore not available to the National Archives. Will the Secretary of State commit today to ensuring that those files are available to the new legacy commission?
Hilary Benn
The legacy commission has the right to receive all information that it requires to do its job. We are proposing in the legislation to amend the arrangements for disclosure, to require the Secretary of State to conduct a balancing exercise, which was not in the previous Act, and to require the Secretary of State to give reasons, in line with standards that apply across the UK. In addition, any decision of the Secretary of State is open to be judicially reviewed. Those are important changes that I hope will give people in Northern Ireland greater confidence.
Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)
The Secretary of State said yesterday that his new legacy commission will not relitigate previous investigations involving veterans unless there are “compelling reasons” to do so. That is reinforced in clause 30 of the Bill that has now been published. To remove scope from opportunistic lawyers, would he consider defining far more closely than he has done up to this point precisely what he means by “compelling reasons”?
Hilary Benn
That is no doubt an issue that the House will discuss as the Bill is considered in detail. I think that “compelling” and “essential” is a pretty high bar. It will be for the commission to interpret that, but no doubt we will continue to discuss it.
Mr Paul Kohler (Wimbledon) (LD)
Further to the Secretary of State’s comments on the adequacy of the legacy and reconciliation Act, I would like to turn to the role of the European convention on human rights. As he will be aware, the Leader of the Opposition seems more interested in the views of the Member for Mar-a-Lago and Moscow than the vision of her predecessor Winston Churchill and is now calling for withdrawal from the ECHR. May I therefore ask the Secretary of State what assessment his Department has made as to the effect that ceasing to be a signatory of the convention would have on the Good Friday agreement, the Windsor protocol, the new legacy framework and Northern Ireland’s institutions in general?
Hilary Benn
The Government are absolutely committed to the European convention on human rights. I very much regret that the current Opposition have moved away from that historic support, which goes right back to Winston Churchill, as the hon. Member has set out. It is highly irresponsible to suggest picking away at one of the essential foundations of the Good Friday agreement.
Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP)
Yesterday, in an atypical fit of pique, the Secretary of State failed to answer my question as to whether the Attorney General, Lord Hermer, had been excluded from the legislation or had personally recused himself. So today I have an easier question. Given that the Secretary of State yesterday highlighted the protections for veterans in this legislation, could he tell the House which page, which clause or which line uses the word “veteran”?
Hilary Benn
The clauses that would implement the protections in relation to veterans and others are clauses 30, 31, 36, 51, 54, 56, 69 and 84.
Gavin Robinson
Labour Members may cheer, but not one of those clauses refers to veterans. Those are not protections for veterans; they are protections for everyone—paragraph 20 of the explanatory notes shows that what I am saying is true—and many of them are already available in the criminal justice system. It is a mirage.
To be collegiate, the Secretary of State has spent many years criticising the legacy Act of 2023 and previous efforts on the basis that they commanded no political support whatsoever across the parties of Northern Ireland. If there is agreement across Northern Ireland’s Members of Parliament on amendments during the passage of his legislation, will he agree to those amendments?
Hilary Benn
The right hon. Gentleman invites me to speculate on amendments that I have not yet seen. As I indicated to the House yesterday, I want to work in as collegiate a way as possible in trying to take the legislation through. In respect to the first part of his question, however, I would say that the only reason the protections and clauses I just read out are in the Bill is because of the Government’s determination to treat our veterans fairly.
Alex Easton (North Down) (Ind)
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Hilary Benn)
As part of “Safeguarding the Union”, Intertrade UK was established to advise on and promote trade and investment across the UK. The terms of reference and work programme were published on gov.uk. The NIO provides secretariat support, but Intertrade UK is free to submit advice and recommendations to the Government as it sees fit.
Alex Easton
What indicators is the Secretary of State using to measure growth in trade within the UK internal market? Will he commit to publicising an independent assessment of the barriers that the Northern Ireland protocol is having on trade within the UK and Northern Ireland, which I believe affects the ability of Intertrade UK to fully promote trade within the UK and operate independently?
Hilary Benn
As the hon. Gentleman will be aware, a range of organisations, including Intertrade UK, are looking at the impact of the Windsor framework. We have recently had Lord Murphy’s report, for example, which the Government are committed to publishing. The House of Lords Northern Ireland Affairs Committee published a report on the same subject only this morning.
Claire Hanna (Belfast South and Mid Down) (SDLP)
Does the Secretary of State agree that one of the major deterrents to investment and growth in Northern Ireland is the absence, 20 months after the restoration of Stormont, of a published investment strategy from the Executive with any sort of a road map for investors or businesses on the infrastructure, roads and housing developments that the Executive will invest in? Does he agree that, in the absence of that strategy, we are flying blind in investment terms? Has he had any discussions with the Executive about that?
Hilary Benn
Like my hon. Friend, I look forward to seeing the investment strategy published. Northern Ireland has a great opportunity under the Windsor framework because of the dual market access, which no other part of the United Kingdom has. For those looking to invest to trade with both the UK and the European Union, there is no better place to come and do that but Northern Ireland.
Kevin Bonavia (Stevenage) (Lab)
Alex Ballinger (Halesowen) (Lab)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Matthew Patrick)
In this role, I am committed to supporting all people across Northern Ireland. From its businesses to its community groups, there is much to champion. I will do all that I can to build on the excellent work of my predecessor, my hon. Friend the Member for Putney (Fleur Anderson).
The defence industrial strategy is great news for Northern Ireland. We are committed to economic growth that people can feel in their pocket, and the £250 million allocated to five defence growth deals, including one in Northern Ireland, will see its booming defence sector thrive.
Kevin Bonavia
Airbus, which manufactures satellites in my Stevenage constituency, will soon integrate the civil aircraft wing business at the historical Shorts site in Belfast, close to where Thales tests its satellites and produces vital missiles for Ukraine. Will the Minister work with colleagues across Government and the Northern Ireland Executive to ensure that the defence industrial strategy is complemented by the industrial strategy’s advanced manufacturing sector plan so as to maximise skills, innovation and growth?
Matthew Patrick
My hon. Friend is right to highlight the rich expertise in Northern Ireland’s defence sector, which brings benefits right across the UK, including to Stevenage. I assure him that the Secretary of State and I will work across Government and with the Executive to ensure a joined-up approach that benefits Northern Ireland.
Alex Ballinger
I am incredibly proud of our naval engineering history in the Black Country, including at companies such as Somers Forge in Halesowen and Brooks Forgings in Cradley Heath. I am delighted that this Labour Government are increasing defence spending to levels never seen under the previous Government. Does the Minister agree that that investment in Northern Ireland, at places such as Harland & Wolff, will not just benefit the local economy there but the supply chain all across the country?
Matthew Patrick
My hon. Friend is right. I warmly welcome this investment and I know he is rightly proud of the defence expertise in his constituency. Backed by this Labour Government increasing defence spending to 2.5%, Harland & Wolff is building the next generation of support ships for our Royal Navy. We are safeguarding jobs, skills and our future security.
Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)
I welcome both the Minister to his place and the defence growth deal. Does he agree that he now needs to work with the Northern Ireland Executive to ensure that the supply chain in Northern Ireland extends beyond Harland & Wolff and the greater Belfast area, so that everyone in Northern Ireland can benefit from what is potentially a life-changing development for industry there?
Matthew Patrick
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his warm words. He is right that we need to work across Northern Ireland to ensure that the life-changing investment he mentions is felt throughout, and I will make sure that happens.
Robin Swann (South Antrim) (UUP)
May I welcome the Minister to his place as well? Will he ensure that there is that co-working across the Northern Ireland Executive and the Ministry of Defence with regard to the Executive’s investment strategy, which is also integral to the defence industrial strategy, and that the NIE will work to remove any blockages that would prevent the two being merged?
Matthew Patrick
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his warm words. I will meet Executive Ministers in Northern Ireland next week to discuss this and other matters. I will ensure that we remove any blockages that we can, and that we do so by working together.
John Lamont (Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk) (Con)
Gregory Stafford (Farnham and Bordon) (Con)
Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Hilary Benn)
The Government are committed to repealing and replacing the legacy Act with new arrangements that seek to command greater confidence in Northern Ireland. Yesterday we published the Northern Ireland Troubles Bill and a draft remedial order to do just that.
John Lamont
Yesterday the Secretary of State announced this Labour Government’s new Northern Ireland Troubles Bill. Despite all the justifications for the Bill, it still means one thing: veterans, many of whom are elderly, being dragged back through the courts. Does the Secretary of State think that is an acceptable way to treat those people who bravely served and defended our country?
Hilary Benn
The hon. Gentleman says “dragged back” to court. The only circumstances in which a veteran, or anyone else, appears in court is if they are charged with an offence. He will know perfectly well what the figures show about prosecutions in the 27 years since the Good Friday agreement. Here we are talking about coroners’ inquests. A small number will be restarted because they were already in train and were stopped by the last legacy Act. The rest will go into the sifting process governed by the Solicitor General. We think that we have a fair and reasonable framework that we will put in place to ensure that veterans are protected and properly looked after.
Gregory Stafford
On 25 September, the Prime Minister assured the BBC that veterans would receive protections not afforded to paramilitaries, so can the Secretary of State confirm which of the statutory protections will apply solely to veterans? Or is it the case that they will also extend to paramilitaries?
Hilary Benn
I will give the hon. Gentleman one example, which involves the representation of veterans on the statutory advisory group that will be established, drawing on the experience of Operation Kenova, allowing the voice of veterans to be heard. This will be covered by clause 8 of the legislation.
Bob Blackman
One of the concerns around dragging veterans through lawfare and our courts is the effect on Army recruitment, so what is the Secretary of State’s reaction to Colonel Nick Kitson, the son of General Sir Frank Kitson, saying:
“How can anyone volunteer to put their life on the line for a Government—indeed a nation—that does not have their back?”
Hilary Benn
I meet many cadets who are very keen to join the armed forces, and we should pay tribute to all who are offering their services to the nation in defence of the realm. We should not talk down the importance of that recruitment effort. If anybody looks in the round at what we are putting forward, they will think it is reasonable. I have met many veterans who argue—as the Veterans Commissioners have said—that they are not looking for immunity under the law, which is what the legacy Act gave; they are looking for fairness under it, and that is what we will provide.
Mr Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that people who join the British Army not only recognise that they have to abide by the law, but expect the Government to have their back and offer them that fairness? Can he offer an assurance that people who served in Northern Ireland will be given the fairness that they expect, and that this is a Government that genuinely have their back?
Hilary Benn
I am happy to give my hon. Friend that assurance. To take another example of the protections, it was put to us by veterans in our discussions that no veteran should have to return to Northern Ireland to engage with legacy processes, and we are legislating for that in the Bill.
Alex Burghart (Brentwood and Ongar) (Con)
This morning, unusually, I congratulate the Government on having admitted a terrible mistake. Earlier this year, we on this side of the House voted against Labour’s draft remedial order, which would have allowed Gerry Adams to sue the taxpayer, so we welcome the fact that Labour amended that order yesterday. But the question remains: why did it ever bring forward such a ridiculous policy in the first place?
Hilary Benn
I hope that the hon. Gentleman will not only offer congratulations but continue these discussions about legacy matters in that spirit. When I say I am prepared to listen, I mean it. I would just point out to him that the problem arose because of the Supreme Court judgment, as he is well aware, and that for just over two years, the last Government could not find a solution. The one that was put in place did not work because it was found to be incompatible. I have reflected on the point that was made in representations, and this decision will ensure that there is no gap, as it has been referred to. We have found a mechanism that we believe will achieve what sections 46 and 47 failed to do.
Alex Burghart
I invite the Secretary of State to look at his own legislation, because clauses 89 and 90 are markedly similar to the sections that we left him. We on this side of the House may have won the battle over this, but we still have not won the war to protect our veterans from vexatious complaints. Is it not the truth that if it had not been for months of campaigning by the Conservatives, the shadow Defence team, the media and reports from Policy Exchange, which may now have saved the taxpayer hundreds of millions of pounds, Labour would have stuck to its plan and allowed Mr Adams and his comrades to sue anyway?
Hilary Benn
I indicated to the House some months ago that we were determined to find a means of dealing with the Supreme Court judgment in 2020 on the subject of the Carltona principle. That is what our proposed legislation will seek to remedy. We think it is a better formulation than sections 46 and 47, and I look forward to the hon. Gentleman’s support in passing it.
Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con)
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Hilary Benn)
The Government are committed to safeguarding Northern Ireland’s place in the UK internal market and to implementing the Windsor framework in good faith. The internal market scheme enables traders to move goods from Great Britain into Northern Ireland tariff-free and, since May, with significantly reduced paperwork and checks.
Andrew Rosindell
It is a disgrace that the “Safeguarding the Union” provisions severely restrict trade between Great Britain and Northern Ireland, binding the Province to 300 areas of EU law over which the people have no say. Will the Secretary of State take steps to remove what is left of this damaging international trade border within our own nation and restore the birthright of the people of Northern Ireland as equal citizens of this United Kingdom?
Hilary Benn
I say to the hon. Gentleman and those who advocated that we should leave the European Union: this is the consequence of it. There was an open border and two different jurisdictions—how were we going to deal with trade in those circumstances? Secondly, the goods are flowing; the goods are moving. Look at the evidence: the Northern Ireland economy in the second quarter grew by 2%. That is not indicative of a problem.
Mike Wood (Kingswinford and South Staffordshire) (Con)
On 26 November last year, the Health Secretary assured this House that the Tobacco and Vapes Bill will apply in Northern Ireland. The Secretary of State will know that the age-based sales ban affects the placement of tobacco products on the market and so is potentially in breach of the EU’s tobacco products directive, so can the Secretary of State repeat the Health Secretary’s assurance and also tell us whether the Government have confirmed with the European Union that the ban will stand in Northern Ireland?
Hilary Benn
It is certainly the Government’s intention that the ban will apply in Northern Ireland, because it is very important that young people all over the United Kingdom are protected in the way in which the Bill seeks.