United Nations Security Council Resolution 1973
Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton Excerpts(13 years, 2 months ago)
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The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron)
I beg to move,
That this House welcomes United Nations Security Council (UNSC) Resolution 1973; deplores the ongoing use of violence by the Libyan regime; acknowledges the demonstrable need, regional support and clear legal basis for urgent action to protect the people of Libya; accordingly supports Her Majesty’s Government, working with others, in the taking of all necessary measures to protect civilians and civilian populated areas under threat of attack in Libya and to enforce the No Fly Zone, including the use of UK armed forces and military assets in accordance with UNSC Resolution 1973; and offers its wholehearted support to the men and women of Her Majesty’s armed forces.
On Saturday, British forces went into action over Libya. The first British cruise missiles were fired from HMS Triumph at 7 pm. Subsequently, RAF Tornados were deployed in several missions. This marked the beginning of our involvement in an international operation, working with the US and others at the request of Arab nations to enforce the will of the United Nations.
In line with UN resolution 1973, there were two aims to these strikes. The first was to suppress the Libyan air defences and make possible the safe enforcement of a no-fly zone. The second was to protect civilians from attack by the Gaddafi regime. Good progress has been made on both fronts. I can announce to the House today that coalition forces have largely neutralised Libyan air defences and that, as a result, a no-fly zone has effectively been put in place over Libya. It is also clear that coalition forces have helped to avert what could have been a bloody massacre in Benghazi. In my view, they did so just in the nick of time.
Today, I can confirm that RAF Typhoon jets have been deployed to a military base in southern Italy within 25 minutes flying time of the Libyan coast, and two Typhoons will be helping to patrol the no-fly zone this afternoon.
I am sure the whole House will join me in paying tribute to our servicemen and women, who are performing with their usual professionalism and courage. Our thoughts must be with their families and their loved ones at this time, as they risk their lives to help save the lives of others.
Let me be clear why these actions have been taken. On Friday evening, President Obama, President Sarkozy and I spelt out the non-negotiable conditions that Colonel Gaddafi had to meet under the requirements of international law set out by UN Security Council resolution 1973.
First, we said that a ceasefire had to be implemented immediately, and that all attacks against civilians must stop. Secondly, we said that Gaddafi had to stop his troops advancing on Benghazi. Thirdly, we said that Gaddafi had to pull his forces back from Ajdabiya, Misrata and Zawiyah. He had to establish water, electricity and gas supplies to all areas, and he had to allow humanitarian assistance to reach the people of Libya.
The removal of Gaddafi’s forces from those towns would safeguard civilians, enable the aid agencies to operate there safely and guarantee the humanitarian assistance that the UN resolution demands. So, let me be clear: the Government’s view is that those non-negotiable conditions are entirely consistent with implementing the UN resolution.
Gaddafi responded to the United Nations resolution by declaring a ceasefire, but straight away it was clear that he was breaking that promise. He continued to push his tanks towards Benghazi as quickly as possible, and to escalate his actions against Misrata. On Saturday alone, there were reports of dozens of people killed in Benghazi and dozens more in Misrata. Gaddafi lied to the international community, he continued to brutalise his own people and he was in flagrant breach of the UN resolution, so it was necessary, legal and right that he should be stopped, and that we should help stop him.
Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP)
I am grateful to the Prime Minister for allowing an intervention. A great many people in this House and in the country had difficulty supporting previous international operations, because they did not have the backing of the United Nations, but this case is different as it does have the backing of the United Nations. Will the Prime Minister acknowledge the importance of a broad consensus on this issue, and, in doing that, the need to stick to the terms of the UN resolution and to address concerns about an open-ended commitment and the potential for mission creep?
The Prime Minister
I certainly want to build and maintain, in this House, throughout this country and, indeed right across the world, the widest possible coalition for the action that we are taking. We must work hard to make sure that many, many countries, including many Arab countries, continue to back what we are doing.
The UN Security Council resolution is very clear about the fact that we are able to take action, including military action, to put in place a no-fly zone that prevents air attacks on Libyan people, and to take all necessary measures to stop the attacks on civilians. We must be clear what our role is, and our role is to enforce that UN Security Council resolution. Many people will ask questions—I am sure, today—about regime change, Gaddafi and the rest of it. I have been clear: I think Libya needs to get rid of Gaddafi. But, in the end, we are responsible for trying to enforce that Security Council resolution; the Libyans must choose their own future.
Joan Ruddock
I am very grateful to the Prime Minister. He will know that, at the moment, the military action is entirely by western states, and that interpretation of the resolution is everything. Will he ensure that, even if its forces are not deployed, the Arab League will be drawn properly into the strategic decision making?
The Prime Minister
I think the right hon. Lady makes an excellent point. I spoke to the secretary-general of the Arab League this morning. One of the things we want to do is to set up a coalition meeting, which happens regularly, for all parties to the mission to come together at a political level and help to give it leadership and guidance. She is right that Arab planes have not been involved in the mission so far, but, as I shall come on to later, the Qataris are producing a number of jets to help enforce the no-fly zone, and we will be doing everything we can to encourage others to come forward. As she knows and I am sure the House will appreciate, what happened on Friday and Saturday was a growing urgency, where action needed to be taken at once. It was vital that we did take that action at once, and, as a result, it was predominantly US, French and British forces that were involved in it.
Tony Lloyd
I think the Prime Minister carries the overwhelming majority on the urgent need to take action to prevent the massacre of people in Benghazi, but will he take the opportunity during his speech to spell out exactly what are the limitations of the actions that he and the coalition will pursue?
The Prime Minister
The action will be limited by what the UN Security Council resolution says. As far as I am concerned, there are two absolutely clear bases for action—one is necessary measures to put in place a no-fly zone, and the second is necessary measures to prevent the deaths of civilians. In everything we do, we must be guided by clear legal advice underneath that UN Security Council resolution. I urge all hon. Members to read the resolution in full, because it gives a pretty clear explanation of what we can do, and we must act within both the letter and the spirit of that.
The Prime Minister
I will take a few more interventions—first, the hon. Member for Colchester (Bob Russell).
Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD)
In view of the obviously barbaric attacks by Gaddafi on his own people, does the Prime Minister agree that those officials and military chiefs who are still standing firm with Gaddafi stand every chance of being hauled before the war crimes tribunal?
The Prime Minister
The hon. Gentleman makes an excellent point. The first resolution we passed—1970—specifically referred to the International Criminal Court. The message we should give today, very clearly, to those people still working or fighting for Gaddafi is that if you continue to do so, you could end up in front of the International Criminal Court, and now is the time to put down your weapons, walk away from your tanks, and stop obeying orders from this regime.
Mr Ronnie Campbell
The resolution says that all necessary measures will be taken. Can the Prime Minister guarantee that no land forces will ever be used; and if they are used, will he resign as Prime Minister?
The Prime Minister
What I can guarantee is that we will stick to the terms of the UN resolution, which absolutely and specifically rules out an occupying force. We have to be clear: we are not talking about an invasion; we are not talking about an occupying force; we are talking about taking action to protect civilian life, and I think that is the right thing to do.
The Prime Minister
I am going to take two more interventions before making progress, first from my hon. Friend the Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Nadhim Zahawi) and then from the leader of Plaid Cymru.
Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con)
Of course, no two campaigns are the same, but there are similarities between this campaign and that to protect the Kurdish people when Saddam Hussein turned on his own people and began to attack them. The motion before the House calls for all necessary measures to protect the people of Libya. Can the Prime Minister confirm that when we vote on the motion tonight, that does not mean regime change in Libya, because that is up to the Libyan people?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend is entirely right, and he is right to draw attention to the issue of the no-fly zone that covered the Kurds. Indeed, at the meeting in Paris on Saturday the Iraqi Foreign Minister gave a passionate speech about how the no-fly zone had saved thousands of lives, and probably his own as well, and that is why it was the right step to take.
Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)
May I say that I am very pleased that the Government have sought a UN resolution, thus making intervention lawful? From what the Prime Minister says, the no-fly zone is up and running. Can we therefore presume that there will be no aerial bombardment for the time being?
The Prime Minister
Certainly, the entire aim of the no-fly zone is to stop the attacks from the air by Gaddafi on his own people, but where the UN has had such a success here is that the resolution goes so much further than simply a no-fly zone because it talks about not only all necessary measures for a no-fly zone, but all necessary measures to protect the civilian population. That enables the international community to take quite tough, but absolutely necessary, steps—for instance, to stop those tanks going into Benghazi. We need to pay tribute to our military and what they are going to have to do over coming days to protect people—an absolutely vital part of what we are engaged in.
The Prime Minister
I am going to make some progress, and then I will take more interventions later.
This action was necessary because, with others, we should be trying to prevent this dictator from using military violence against his own people; it was legal because, as we have just discussed, it had the backing of the UN Security Council; and it was right, I believe, because we should not stand aside while he murders his own people—and the Arab League and many others agreed. In the summit in Paris on Saturday, the secretary-general of the Arab League and representatives of Arab states, including Qatar, the United Arab Emirates, Iraq, Jordan and Morocco, asserted their support for
“all necessary action, including military, consistent with UNSCR 1973, to ensure compliance with all its requirements.”
That is what was agreed in Paris.
As I have said, in terms of active participation, the Qataris are deploying a number of jets from their royal air force to help enforce the no-fly zone. I spoke to the secretary-general of the Arab League this morning, and he confirmed his clear support for all aspects of the UN resolution. We agree that it must be implemented.
Alongside America, France and Britain, a significant number of other countries are pledging their active support. I am sure that the House would want to hear some of the details. Spain has confirmed its active participation with four air defence fighters, a tanker aircraft, a surveillance aircraft and an F-100 frigate. Canada has committed six air defence fighters and a naval vessel. Norway and Denmark have committed a total of 10 air defence fighters. Belgium has offered air defence fighters. Italy has opened important bases in close reach of the Libyan coast, one of which we are using right now. Greece has excellent facilities and bases only minutes’ flying time from Benghazi.
The message in Paris was loud and clear: the international community had heeded the call of the Arab nations. Together, we assured the Libyan people of our
“determination to be at their side to help them realise their aspirations and build their future and institutions within a democratic framework.”
Jeremy Corbyn
The Prime Minister will be aware that the Chinese Government have called for a special meeting of the Security Council this evening, and that India has expressed deep reservations about the bombardments that are going on. Can he tell us something about the apparent continuing falling away of support for the actions that have been taken, and what the endgame actually is?
The Prime Minister
The point that I would make is that this matter was discussed in the UN Security Council and the Chinese, Indians and Russians decided to abstain. Two of those countries have a veto and decided not to exercise it. Everyone was clear at the time about what was meant by enforcing a no-fly zone and taking all necessary measures to protect civilians. I will come on in my speech to describe how I believe what has happened is in no way disproportionate or unreasonable. Indeed, I would argue that it is absolutely in line with what the UN has agreed.
I will address specifically the amendment tabled by the hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn). I know that it has not been selected, but I want to ensure that we address everything in this debate. There is much in the amendment that I welcome. I assure the House that we will do everything we can to avoid civilian casualties. Indeed, last night our RAF pilots aborted their mission when they determined that there were civilians close to the identified military targets. I also agree with the hon. Members who signed the amendment about the need to avoid the use of depleted uranium and cluster munitions. We do not use those munitions. I welcome their support for those struggling for democracy and freedom in the region, and back their call to restart the middle east peace process.
However, I take issue with two crucial parts of the amendment. The first is the suggestion that there was somehow time for further consultation before undertaking military action. The United Nations gave Gaddafi an ultimatum and he completely ignored it. To those who say that we should wait and see, I say that we have waited and we have seen more than enough. The House is aware that the Cabinet met and agreed our approach on Friday. On Saturday morning, as I was travelling to the Paris summit, the Deputy Prime Minister chaired a meeting of Cobra. He was presented with a final analysis of the state of play on the ground in Libya and the advice was very clear. We were in a race against time to avoid the slaughter of civilians in Benghazi. All of us would have hoped to avoid the use of force, and that could have been achieved if Gaddafi had complied immediately and fully with the requirements of the resolution. The fact is that he did not. That left us with a choice either to use force, strictly in line with the resolution, or to back down and send a message to Gaddafi that he could go on brutalising his people. We should remember that this is the man who told the world that he would show the people of Benghazi no mercy. I am convinced that to act with others was the right decision.
John McDonnell
I almost thought that the Prime Minister was about to support our amendment in total, but I live in hope on other matters. He made the specific point about avoiding the use of depleted uranium ordnance. Will he give a more categorical assurance that we will not use those weapons?
The Prime Minister
I could not have been more clear that we do not use those weapons and are not going to use those weapons.
Let me be clear with the hon. Gentleman about why, specifically, I do not agree with the amendment. My second objection is that it says we should “acknowledge” rather than “support” UN Security Council resolution 1973. I think that is profoundly wrong. It is an important resolution that the UK helped to bring about, and I believe that the House should be frank and clear in welcoming it.
Emily Thornberry
What would be a successful outcome to this military action, and is it possible that it could take a number of years for us to get out of Libya now?
The Prime Minister
A successful outcome is the enforcement of the will of the UN, which is the ceasing of attacks on civilians. That is what we are aiming at. But let me be absolutely frank about this: it is a more difficult question, in many ways, than the question over Iraq, because in Iraq we had been prepared to go into a country, knock over its Government and put something else in place. That is not the approach we are taking here. We are saying that there is a UN Security Council resolution to stop violence against civilians and to put in a UN no-fly zone, and then the Libyan people must choose their own future. The point I would make is that they have far more chance of choosing their own future today than they did 24 or 48 hours ago.
Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)
My right hon. Friend is being very generous in giving way.
Given our poor record of intervention in the past, can my right hon. Friend explain to the sceptics among us why we do not allow the Arabs to take the lead on this, particularly the Arab League, which has called for intervention, and let them instigate a no-fly zone? After all, Egypt is well placed, and we have been selling these Arab nations the capability.
The Prime Minister
I would answer that question in two ways. First, if we had waited for that, Benghazi would have fallen, and from that Tobruk would probably have fallen, and Gaddafi would have rolled up the whole of his country in the next 24 to 48 hours. The fact is, it was the Arab League that asked us to come in and provide the no-fly zone. I am as keen as anyone to make sure that this coalition of the willing is as broad-based, and has as much Arab support, as possible, but we should be clear that in the early stages, in order to act quickly, it had to have very strong American, British and French participation.
The Prime Minister
I give way to my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash), and then I will make some more progress.
Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con)
My right hon. Friend knows that I am strongly supportive of the actions that he has taken, and he deserves great credit for them, but on Friday he indicated that we would see a summary of the legal advice from the Attorney-General. We know from what he said on Friday, and indeed from the note that has been supplied in the Library, that the Cabinet has consulted the Attorney-General and is satisfied with the legal advice, but it does not seem from what I have seen so far that we have been supplied with a summary of the Attorney-General’s legal advice. Is that going to be forthcoming?
The Prime Minister
What we have provided, which I do not think any Government have done before, is a note on the legal advice. That is, I think, the right thing to do. One of the reasons why it is so short is, frankly, because the legal advice is so clear. Members can see that when they read the UN Security Council resolution.
The Prime Minister
I will take as many interventions as I can, but before I give way any more, let me turn to some of the other questions that have been raised in recent days.
First, as some hon. Members have asked today, has the use of force been reasonable? As I have said, we have undertaken the use of force in two ways. The first is to suppress Libyan air defences, which I believe is absolutely essential. As Prime Minister, I would not have been prepared to sanction our participation in enforcing the no-fly zone without doing everything possible to reduce the risk to our servicemen and women beforehand. That seems to me absolutely vital. The second area of activity has been action designed explicitly to safeguard civilian populations under attack. As the resolution explicitly authorises, it was quite clear that the population of Benghazi was under heavy attack. Civilians were being killed in significant numbers and exodus from the town had begun, so there was an urgent need to take action to stop the slaughter. As I have said, I am absolutely convinced that what has been done is proportionate.
Targets must be fully consistent with the UN Security Council resolution. We therefore choose our targets to stop attacks on civilians and to implement the no-fly zone, but we should not give a running commentary on targeting and I do not propose to say any more on the subject than that.
Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)
I am grateful to the Prime Minister. I am sure he would agree that any military action needs to be principled and consistent, but last year, the UK issued £231 million-worth of arms exports licences to Libya and £55 million of licences to Saudi Arabia, including the very personnel carriers that were rolling into Bahrain just last week. Does he not agree that our position would be a lot more consistent and a lot more principled if we stopped selling arms to repressive regimes anywhere in that region?
The Prime Minister
The hon. Lady makes an important point, which we have discussed several times during statements and questions. We are having a proper review of not just arms exports, but training licences and other relations. Of the 118 single and open licences for Libya, we have revoked all licences that cover equipment of concern. However, I agree with the hon. Lady that there will be lessons to learn from the conflict for the future.
Dan Byles (North Warwickshire) (Con)
The Prime Minister has been pressed to rule out putting any boots on the ground as part of the operation. May I ask him to reassure the House that, in the event of any British pilots being downed on operations over Libya, the UN resolution will not tie our hands and prevent us from putting in a robust search and rescue operation, should one be required to recover our pilots?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend makes an important point, but the UN resolution could not be clearer about no occupying army—it is not about an invasion. People need that reassurance not only in the House but in the country and throughout the Arab world.
Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)
The Prime Minister should know that he has the support of the vast majority of Members of all parties for the Government’s actions and those of our troops, who are undertaking the work on our behalf. Does he agree that it is hard to see how the Libyan people will be safe from the threat of violence while Colonel Gaddafi remains in charge of that country?
The Prime Minister
The hon. Gentleman puts it absolutely correctly. We know what our job is—to enforce the UN’s will. It is for the people in Libya to decide who governs them, how they are governed and what their future is, but none of us has changed our opinion that there is no future for the people of Libya with Colonel Gaddafi in charge.
Obviously, there are those, including some in the House, who question whether Britain really needs to get involved. Some have argued that we should leave it to others because there is not sufficient British national interest at stake. I believe that argument is misplaced. If Gaddafi’s attacks on his own people succeed, Libya will become once again a pariah state, festering on Europe’s border, and a source of instability exporting terror beyond its borders. It will be a state from which literally hundreds of thousands of citizens could try to escape, putting huge pressure on us in Europe. We should also remember that Gaddafi is a dictator who has a track record of violence and support for terrorism against our country. The people of Lockerbie, for instance, know what that man is capable of. I am therefore clear that taking action in Libya with our partners is in our national interest.
Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)
The legal note that accompanies the debate makes it clear that the Security Council resolution recognises that Libya
“constitutes a threat to international peace and security.”
Although I do not recommend that we take such action, from the point of view of consistency, why are we not taking action against Yemen?
The Prime Minister
We are obviously extremely disturbed by what is happening in Yemen, particularly recent events. We urge every country in that region to respond to the aspirations of its people with reform, not repression. We have a specific situation in Libya, whereby there was a dictator whose people were trying to get rid of him, who responded with armed violence in the streets. The UN has reached a conclusion and I think that we should back it. As I said the other day, just because we cannot do the right thing everywhere does not mean we should not do it when we have clear permission for and a national interest in doing so. One commentator put it rather well at the weekend: “Why should I tidy my bedroom when the rest of the world is such a mess?” That is an interesting way of putting it.
Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD)
May I express from the Liberal Democrat Benches our strong support for the resolution and the Government’s action? Clearly, the position is different from Iraq. However, does the Prime Minister agree that there is an urgent need to internationalise the mission as far as possible to cement support across the international community should things not run entirely tidily and also so as not to over-extend our forces?
The Prime Minister
The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. We want to internationalise the action to the maximum degree possible on the military front and in what must follow in humanitarian aid and assistance to the people in Libya.
The hon. Gentleman mentioned Iraq and I want to deal with the way in which we will ensure that this is not another Iraq. My answer is clear: the UN resolution, which we, with the Lebanese, the US and the French, helped draft, makes it clear that there will be no foreign occupation of Libya. The resolution authorises and sets the limit on our action. It excludes an occupation force in any form on any part of Libyan territory.
However, I would argue that the differences from Iraq go deeper. It is not just that this time, the action has the full, unambiguous legal authority of the United Nations nor that it is backed by Arab countries and a broad international coalition, but that millions in the Arab world want to know that the UN, the US, the UK, the French and the international community care about their suffering and their oppression. The Arab world has asked us to act with it to stop the slaughter, and that is why we should answer that call.
Mr Dai Havard (Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney) (Lab)
The legal advice summary, which I have only just seen—we have not seen the whole thing—clearly excludes
“a foreign occupation force of any form on any part of Libyan territory”
but also says that the resolution
“further authorises Member States to use all measures…to carry out inspections aimed at the enforcement of the arms embargo”.
Does that mean that on the one hand we cannot have troops on the ground, but on the other hand we might allow people to make inspections or go there for search and rescue purposes? Is there clarity about having no troops on the ground in Libya?
The Prime Minister
The point about the legal advice, which refers back to the UN Security Council resolution, is that it makes provision to put in place an arms embargo and to inspect ships going to Libya. A number of countries have volunteered their forces specifically for that purpose, which we should welcome.
That brings me to my next point. Some accept that Britain should play a part but worry that we might shoulder an unfair burden. I want to assure the House that that is not the case. Let me explain how the coalition will work. It is operating under US command, with the intention that that will transfer to NATO, which will mean that all the NATO allies—I read out a list earlier of who wants to contribute—will be able to contribute. Clearly, the mission would benefit from that and from using NATO’s tried and tested command and control machinery.
With the fourth largest defence budget in the world, Britain clearly has the means to play its part, but given that British troops are engaged in Afghanistan, that part must be in line with our resources, and so it will be. No resources have been diverted from the Afghanistan campaign to carry out the enforcement of resolution 1973, and I have the assurance of the Chief of the Defence Staff that both operations can take place concurrently. Crucially, the impact of what we are doing in Libya will not affect our mission in Afghanistan.
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con)
May I congratulate the Prime Minister on obtaining the UN resolution to give us the legal cover that we require? The problem with Iraq was that there was no proper post-war reconstruction plan. Is he giving thought to what a post-war reconstruction plan ought to be, and will he encourage members of the Arab League to play their full part in that once the military phase is over?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend makes an extremely important point about humanitarian planning for afterwards, which I will come to later in my speech. My right hon. Friend the International Development Secretary is leading cross-Government work to ensure that that plan is robust. However, let me be frank about one difficulty that we have. Because we are saying that there will not be an invasion and that there will not be an occupation, we must have a different sort of plan—a much more international plan with a greater role for the UN, the EU and aid agencies, all of which we will support.
The Prime Minister
I shall give way to the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr Skinner), but then make some progress.
Mr Skinner
It is easy to get into a war; it is much harder to end it. When will all those nations that are taking part know the circumstances for pulling out and ending the war? We know now that this is not about regime change—the Prime Minister has already said that—and we hope that there will be no forces on the ground, but what circumstances will enable those nations to say, “It’s all over”?
The Prime Minister
For once, I agree with the hon. Gentleman—I entirely agree with the first part of his question, because it is easier to start these things than to finish them, and we should always be cautious and careful before we go ahead. However, as I have tried to lay out for the House today, not acting would have led to a completely unacceptable situation. The answer to his question is that this will be over and finished when we have complied with and implemented the UN Security Council resolution. That is about protecting civilians and protecting life, and giving the Libyan people a chance to determine their own future. This is different from Iraq. This is not going into a country and knocking over its Government, and then owning and being responsible for everything that happens subsequently. This is about protecting people and giving the Libyan people a chance to shape their own destiny.
Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab)
May I take the Prime Minister back to what he said about NATO? Is he confirming that when the US gives up command of this phase of the operation, he expects the UK, under the auspices of NATO, to take over?
The Prime Minister
No, I am not saying that. I am saying that at the moment there is basically American command and control, under which the French, British and others are operating. Over time, we want that to transition to NATO command and control, using NATO machinery, so that all the partners in NATO and all those who want to contribute from the outside can be properly co-ordinated. That might easily still be an American, French or British individual, but it would be under the auspices of NATO. It is tried and tested, it works, it co-ordinates and brings people together, it has operated no-fly zones before, and it is the right way of doing things. The international community is agreed on that.
Of course, there are those who ask whether the risks will outweigh the benefits. Clearly, as I have said, there is no action without risk, but alongside the risks of action, we have to weigh the risks of inaction: the sight of the international community condemning violence but doing nothing to stop it; the effect across north Africa and the middle east if Gaddafi succeeds in brutalising his own people; the humanitarian consequences for the city of Benghazi and beyond; and the consequences for Europe of a failed pariah state on its southern border. In my view, all these risks are simply too great to ignore. So yes there are dangers and difficulties, and there will always be unforeseen consequences, but it is better to take this action than to risk the consequences of inaction, which would be the slaughter of civilians and this dictator completely flouting the United Nations and its will.
Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con)
In addition to brutalising his own people, is it not the case that the Gaddafi regime is daily harassing our brave British journalists, making it increasingly difficult for them to report from places such as Tripoli?
The Prime Minister
I am sure that everyone in the House would want to pay tribute to the risks taken by, and the bravery of, journalists, including British journalists. Everyone should remember that people reporting from Tripoli are doing so under very strong reporting restrictions. I hope that not only everyone in the House, but everyone in the country and broadcasting organisations will remember to repeat regularly the sort of restrictions the reporters are operating under.
The Prime Minister
I will make some progress, and take a few more interventions before the end.
There are also some who say we are just stirring up trouble for the future. These people say that Arabs and Muslims cannot do democracy and that more freedoms in these countries will simply lead to extremism and intolerance. To me, this argument is not only deeply condescending and prejudiced, but is utterly wrong and has been shown to be wrong. Let us remember that people made this argument about Egypt only a short month ago. They said that the departure of Mubarak would lead to a dangerous vacuum in which extremists would flourish. Of course, I deplore—and the House will deplore—the attack on Mohamed e1-Baradei at a polling station, but the overwhelming picture from Saturday was one of millions of people queuing up patiently and proudly to exercise their democratic rights, many for the first time. As democrats in this House, we should applaud what they did.
Inevitably, information about the Libyan opposition is not complete, but the evidence suggests that it consists predominantly of ordinary Libyans from all walks of life who want freedom, justice and democracy—the things we take for granted.
Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con)
Should the Gaddafi regime finally be toppled, will the Prime Minister assure us that his Government will do everything possible to help the Metropolitan police to conclude their investigations into who killed PC Yvonne Fletcher?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend, who has considerable expertise and has taken a great interest in this matter, makes an important point, which is that if the Libyan people choose a new future for themselves and their country, there might be huge opportunities to find out not only what really happened to PC Yvonne Fletcher, but about the support for Northern Irish terrorism that did so much damage in our country.
People will be rightly concerned that we should have a clear plan for what happens next in Libya—both in humanitarian terms, and also politically and diplomatically—following the successful conclusion of the no-fly zone. On humanitarian issues, the UK was one of the first to respond to the humanitarian needs arising from Gaddafi’s actions. We provided tents and blankets from our stores in Dubai for the thousands of migrant workers crossing the borders to escape the regime’s violence. We were the first country to provide flights to enable 12,000 migrant workers to return to their homes. This timely assistance prevented what was a logistical emergency from becoming a humanitarian crisis. The International Development Secretary announced last week that we will now support the International Committee of the Red Cross to deploy three medical teams. They will help to provide both medical assistance to the 3,000 people affected by the fighting, and food and essential items for 100,000 of the most vulnerable. From the beginning, we urged the United Nations to lead international pressure for unfettered humanitarian access within Libya. We are now planning for new humanitarian needs that may emerge as a result of the conflict.
Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab)
I am sceptical about this country’s involvement in air raids on another Muslim and Arab country. However, I accept that there has been a huge success in saving lives in Benghazi. It would make me feel more relaxed about the resolution this evening if the Prime Minister gave a commitment to report back regularly to the House and to ask for further authority to continue the operations.
The Prime Minister
Of course there should be regular statements in this House. I gave a statement on Friday and we are having a debate on a substantive motion today. There should be regular updates on the humanitarian situation, what our defence forces are doing, and political and diplomatic activity. I do not believe that right now there is a need to go back to the UN for further permission, because the resolution could not be clearer. It combined three different elements: an immediate ceasefire, action for a no-fly zone, and action to protect civilians and stop the loss of life. It was an incredibly complete UN resolution, and that is why we should give it such strong support.
The Prime Minister
Let me say one more word about the issue of planning for the humanitarian situation. It is important that in supporting the implementation of the resolution, the international system should plan now for stabilising the peace that we hope will follow. That could include rapidly restoring damaged infrastructure, keeping important services such as health and education running, reforming the security sector, and ensuring an open and transparent political process to elections. All that will take time and require an internationally led effort, but Britain is committed to playing its part.
Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)
I thank my right hon. Friend for giving way and for the leadership that he has shown on this issue. Given what has been said about Kurdistan this afternoon and the reports that Gaddafi has mustard gas, what action will the allies take to stop him if he starts using it against his own people?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend raises an issue of real concern, on which we keep a very sharp focus. After Gaddafi supposedly came in from the cold, there was an agreement for him to give up weapons of mass destruction. He destroyed some of them, but he still has the supplies to which my hon. Friend refers. We have to make sure that there is absolutely no sign of their being used.
In terms of what happens politically and diplomatically, what is crucial is that the future of Libya is for the people of Libya to decide, aided by the international community. The Libyan opposition has made it clear that it does not want to see a division of its country, and neither do we. It has also expressed a clear and overwhelming wish for Gaddafi to go, and we agree with that too, but the UN resolution is limited in its scope. It explicitly does not provide legal authority for action to bring about Gaddafi’s removal from power by military means. As I have said, we will help to fulfil the UN Security Council’s resolution. It is for the Libyan people to determine their Government and their destiny, but our view is clear: there is no decent future for Libya with Colonel Gaddafi remaining in power.
Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
On a wider point, it is a change in philosophy on the part of the UN and the international community not to tolerate those involved in the internal repression of their own populations. What is going to happen to leaders in other countries round the world who are indulging in Gaddafi-style behaviour?
The Prime Minister
The hon. Gentleman makes an important point, and that is why UN Security Council resolution 1973 could be something of a breakthrough. The world has come together and said that what this dictator is doing to his people—within his own country, but totally in breach of international law and all sign of human rights—is wrong and can be stopped by all necessary means. In the act of stopping him, let us hope that that sends a message to dictators the world over.
Mr Sam Gyimah (East Surrey) (Con)
With a no-fly zone in operation, a tyrant as brutal and determined as Gaddafi could decide to move the conflict into urban areas. In that scenario, does the resolution as it stands give us the scope to act to stop any humanitarian disaster that could occur?
The Prime Minister
The resolution gives us the scope to act, but clearly we have to act at all times to minimise civilian casualties. We must bear that in mind very carefully when we think about the military operations that we are engaged in.
The Prime Minister
I will not give way any more.
Gaddafi has had every conceivable opportunity to stop massacring his own people. The time for red lines, threats and last chances is over. Tough action is needed now to ensure that people in Libya can lead their lives without fear and with access to the basic needs of life. That is what the Security Council requires and that is what we are seeking to deliver. There are rightly those who ask how and where this will end. Of course, there are difficulties and dangers ahead, but already we know, beyond any doubt, that we have succeeded in chasing Gaddafi’s planes out of the sky. We have saved the lives of many Libyans and we have helped to prevent the destruction of a great and historic city.
Of course, no one can be certain of what the future can hold, but as we stand here today, the people of Libya have a much better chance of determining their destiny and, in taking this action, we should be proud that we are not only acting in British interests but being true to our values as a nation. I commend the motion to the House.
Mr Winnick
The action started late on Saturday. We could have met on Saturday; we have done so on previous occasions. I have been present at Saturday sittings, and in my view that could have taken place, if not on Friday itself.
In view of the Security Council resolution, there is no doubt about the legality of the military operation. The Security Council has clearly carried the resolution, and the issue is not about whether the action is legal, because it clearly must be so, but about judgment and whether such intervention is justified. Much has been made of the Arab League and so on; incidentally, I do not know how many, if any, Arab League countries could be considered democracies. Be that as it may, I accept that none of them is quite in the same category as Gaddafi’s Libya.
Interestingly, the secretary-general of the league, just two days after the heavy bombing, is reported to have said that
“what we want is the protection of the civilians and not a bombardment of more civilians.”
If he is saying that at this particular stage, what is he going to say in the following days if the bombing continues? Undoubtedly, there will be civilian casualties, and yes, Gaddafi will make much of it, make propaganda—one would not expect otherwise. But one does not need to be a military expert to accept that one cannot carry out such military operations without civilian casualties. So while we talk about protecting the people and the reason—the justification—for the operation, we have to recognise that many innocent people are going to be killed or slaughtered, whatever word we use, because the situation cannot be otherwise.
We have spoken and debated from a western point of view, but I ask the House to look at the situation from the Arab point of view—not that of the Arab League, or the Arab rulers, but that of the ordinary people in Arab countries. They want a decent life; that is why the protests grew out of the suicide in Tunisia. Of course they want a decent life; that is one reason why there is such an influx of, and motivation for, immigration. We want a decent life, so do our constituents and so do the people in countries of acute poverty and deprivation. Human beings are the same the whole world over.
Let us look at the situation from the Arab point of view. In Yemen, the regime slaughtered 45 people last week. They were protesting. In Bahrain and Saudi Arabia there is repression, and of course Saudi Arabia actually took military action to intervene in Bahrain. Has anyone suggested that we should intervene against Saudi Arabia? Of course not. Even if repression grew in Saudi Arabia itself, or in Bahrain, one thing would be absolutely certain: the British Government would not draft a resolution with the United States to put before the Security Council of the United Nations. We know that.
It is interesting that every time we go to intervene somewhere there is a reference to the occupied territories: “We are going to do what we can for the Palestinians.” Yet the position of the Palestinians remains the same: more than 40 years of occupation, humiliating conditions, the wall, the deprivation of liberty, and the rest. Has there been any change as far as the Israeli occupation of the occupied territories goes? Not at all, but Prime Ministers—not just this one—always refer to it. I do not doubt their sincerity, but it is interesting as far as the occupied territories and the United States’ support for this current military action are concerned.
Only a few weeks ago, a resolution—
Mr Winnick
Yes, indeed.
Only a few weeks ago, a resolution passed by the United Nations, including the British Government, was vetoed by the United States. A moderate resolution, protesting against the illegal settlements, was vetoed.
The Prime Minister
I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman, whose speech I am listening to very carefully. He asks us to see the situation from an Arab point of view, but does he accept something that was put very forcefully to me at a public meeting in Qatar; namely, “You intervened in Iraq because it was about your security. Don’t you see that in Libya this is about our aspiration, our democracy, our freedom? Isn’t it time that actually you paid some attention to those things?”? Was not that the Arab street speaking, and not just Arab Governments? Is not that something we should listen to?
Mr Winnick
Yes. I take the point the Prime Minister makes, but at the same time what about the lack of freedom—the repression—in the other countries that I have mentioned? It is not just Libya. Yes, I concede the point—I have said so—that Gaddafi’s regime is so tyrannical, so bloody against its own people, and there was the arming of the IRA, Lockerbie and the rest of it. Gaddafi was up to his neck in Lockerbie, as well as in the murder of Yvonne Fletcher. I have no illusions on that score; all I am saying is that, from the Arab point of view, they do not quite see the situation as we and, to some extent, I do as a citizen of the United Kingdom.
I have many reservations. I must confess that I am debating with myself. I do not often do so, but I do not see any reason why I should not. [Interruption.] I do not recommend it. I may be somewhat introverted as a personality, but I do not recommend debating with oneself. The debate I am having is whether I should vote against the motion, because I cannot vote with the Government. I will make up my mind, not because it is the Government’s motion but because of the reservations I have expressed. Having expressed those reservations, it would be somewhat hypocritical of me to vote for the motion, if there is a vote tonight—there may not be. If there is a vote, I am debating whether I should abstain or vote against the motion, and I will make up my mind.
I simply say this in conclusion: the action has been taken and we are in, but I hope it is going to be very short. Reference was made to mission creep. I hope we are not going to get involved in the same way as we did in Iraq and in Afghanistan. We are out of Iraq, most people want to see the end of British military involvement in Afghanistan and they certainly do not want a new, long war. That is why I hope so very much that it will be very short indeed. The sooner it ends, the better, because I do not believe, at the end of the day, that it is in the interests of Libya or the United Kingdom.
Review Body on Senior Salaries
Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton Excerpts(13 years, 2 months ago)
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The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron)
Since coming to power the Government have taken a number of steps to control public sector pay. At the first meeting of the Cabinet, Ministers announced that they would take a 5% pay cut—and that their pay would be frozen for the rest of the Parliament; vital savings have been achieved by freezing the pay of those earning over £21,000 and placing restrictions on bonuses for senior managers; transparency has been increased by publishing the salaries of senior Whitehall officials; and requirements for ministerial scrutiny of the highest public sector wages have been extended and strengthened.
In the civil service in particular significant savings have been made. Departmental spending envelopes set at the spending review mean that administration costs will fall by £5.899 million by 2014-15, a reduction of 34%. In addition, Departments have taken forward recruitment freezes which, alongside reforms to the civil service compensation scheme will deliver further savings over the spending review period.
It is in this context that the 33rd report of the Review Body on Senior Salaries (SSRB) is being published today. The report covers the remuneration of the judiciary, senior civil servants, senior officers in the armed forces and certain senior NHS managers. Copies have been laid in the Vote Office, the Printed Paper Office and the Libraries of both Houses. I thank the SSRB for their work in preparing this report.
The Judiciary
Given in particular the two-year pay freeze that will be in place for public servants earning over £21,000 from April 2011, the Government are not announcing any immediate changes to judicial salaries, but are considering the detail of the report overall and will respond at an appropriate time.
Senior Civil Service
The Government confirm that they will continue to work on reforms to the current SCS reward model that are consistent with the Government’s wider policy on restraint in public sector pay, and senior pay in particular, and the need to ensure that the civil service can continue to recruit, retain and motivate sufficient people of the necessary quality to fulfil the important roles undertaken by the SCS. The Government are grateful for the constructive engagement from the trade unions on SCS pay reform and will continue to consult and engage with them going forwards.
Senior Officers in the Armed Forces
The Government have accepted the review body’s recommendation that the Ministry of Defence review the performance management and pay system and consider whether improvements can be made.
Senior NHS Managers
The Government thank the review body for its work in this area and for continuing to monitor recruitment and retention over the pay freeze period.
Other Review Body reports for 2011-12
My right hon. Friends the Secretaries of State for Defence, Justice, Education and Health are making statements today on the reports of the Armed Forces Pay Review Body, the Prison Service Pay Body, the School Teachers Review Body, and the NHS Pay Review Body in respect of pay for the relevant workforces.
UN Security Council Resolution (Libya)
Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton Excerpts(13 years, 2 months ago)
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The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron)
With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a statement on last night’s UN Security Council resolution on Libya.
Over three weeks ago, the people of Libya took to the streets in protest against Colonel Gaddafi and his regime, asking for new rights and freedoms. There were hopeful signs that a better future awaited them, and that, like people elsewhere in the middle east and north Africa, they were taking their destiny into their own hands. Far from meeting those aspirations, Colonel Gaddafi has responded by attacking his own people. He has brought the full might of armed forces to bear on them, backed up by mercenaries. The world has watched as he has brutally crushed his own people.
On 23 February, the UN Secretary-General cited the reported nature and scale of attacks on civilians as
“egregious violations of international and human rights law”
and called on the Government of Libya to
“meet its responsibility to protect its people.”
The Secretary-General said later that more than 1,000 people had been killed and many more injured in Libya amid credible and consistent reports of arrests, detention and torture.
Over the weekend of 26 and 27 February, at Britain's instigation, the UN Security Council agreed resolution 1970, which condemned Gaddafi's actions. It imposed a travel ban and asset freezes on those at the top of his regime. It demanded an end to the violence, access for international human rights monitors and the lifting of restrictions on the media. Vitally, it referred the situation in Libya to the International Criminal Court so that its leaders should face the justice they deserve.
In my statement to the House on 28 February, I set out the steps that we would take to implement those measures. Our consistent approach has been to isolate the Gaddafi regime, deprive it of money, shrink its power and ensure that anyone responsible for abuses in Libya will be held to account. I also told the House that I believed contingency planning should be done for different scenarios, including involving military assets, and that that should include plans for a no-fly zone.
Intervening in another country's affairs should not be undertaken save in quite exceptional circumstances. That is why we have always been clear that preparing for eventualities that might include the use of force—including a no-fly zone or other measures to stop humanitarian catastrophe—would require three steps and three tests to be met: demonstrable need, regional support, and a clear legal basis.
First, on demonstrable need, Gaddafi’s regime has ignored the demand of UN Security Council resolution 1970 that it stop the violence against the Libyan people. His forces have attacked peaceful protesters, and are now preparing for a violent assault on a city, Benghazi, of 1 million people that has a history dating back 2,500 years. They have begun air strikes in anticipation of what we expect to be a brutal attack using air, land and sea forces. Gaddafi has publicly promised that every home will be searched and that there will be no mercy and no pity shown.
If we want any sense of what that might mean we have only to look at what happened in Zawiyah, where tanks and heavy weaponry were used to smash through a heavily populated town with heavy loss of life. We do not have to guess what happens when he has subdued a population. Human Rights Watch has catalogued the appalling human rights abuses that are being committed in Tripoli. Now, the people of eastern Libya are faced with the same treatment. That is the demonstrable need.
Secondly, on regional support, we said that there must be a clear wish from the people of Libya and the wider region for international action. It was the people of Libya, through their transitional national council, who were the first to call for protection from air attack through a no-fly zone. More recently, the Arab League has made the same demand.
It has been remarkable how Arab leaders have come forward and condemned the actions of Gaddafi’s Government. In recent days, I have spoken with the leaders of Saudi Arabia, Qatar, the United Arab Emirates and Jordan. A number of Arab nations have made it clear that they are willing to participate in enforcing the resolution. That support goes far beyond the Arab world. Last night, all three African members of the UN Security Council voted in favour of the resolution.
The third and essential condition was that there should be a clear legal base. That is why along with France, Lebanon and the United States we worked hard to draft appropriate language that could command the support of the international community. Last night, the United Nations Security Council agreed that resolution. Resolution 1973
“Demands the immediate establishment of a ceasefire and a complete end to violence and all attacks against, and abuses of, civilians”.
It establishes
“a ban on all flights”
in the airspace of Libya
“in order to help protect civilians”.
It authorises member states to take
“all necessary measures to enforce compliance with the ban”.
Crucially, in paragraph 4, it
“Authorises member states…acting nationally or through regional organisations or arrangements, and acting in co-operation with the Secretary-General, to take all necessary measures…to protect civilians and civilian populated areas under threat of attack...including Benghazi”.
The resolution both authorises and sets the limits of our action. Specifically, it excludes an occupation force of any form, on any part of Libyan territory. That was a clear agreement between all the sponsors of the resolution, including the UK, and of course, the Arab League. I absolutely believe that that is the right thing both to say and to do.
As our ambassador to the United Nations said, the central purpose of this resolution is to end the violence, protect civilians, and allow the people of Libya to determine their own future, free from the brutality unleashed by the Gaddafi regime. The Libyan population want the same rights and freedoms that people across the middle east and north Africa are demanding, and that are enshrined in the values of the United Nations charter. Resolution 1973 puts the weight of the Security Council squarely behind the Libyan people in defence of those values. Our aims are entirely encapsulated by that resolution.
Demonstrable need, regional support and a clear legal base: the three criteria are now satisfied in full. Now that the UN Security Council has reached its decision, there is a responsibility on its members to respond. That is what Britain, with others, will now do. The Attorney-General has been consulted and the Government are satisfied that there is a clear and unequivocal legal basis for the deployment of UK forces and military assets. He advised Cabinet this morning, and his advice was read and discussed. The Security Council has adopted resolution 1973 as a measure to maintain or restore international peace and security under chapter VII of the United Nations charter. The resolution specifically authorises notifying member states to use all necessary measures to enforce a no-fly zone and to protect civilians and civilian populated areas, including Benghazi.
At Cabinet this morning, we agreed that the UK will play its part. Our forces will join an international operation to enforce the resolution if Gaddafi fails to comply with the demand that he end attacks on civilians. The Defence Secretary and I have now instructed the Chief of the Defence Staff to work urgently with our allies to put in place the appropriate military measures to enforce the resolution, including a no-fly zone. I can tell the House that Britain will deploy Tornadoes and Typhoons as well as air-to-air refuelling and surveillance aircraft. Preparations to deploy those aircraft have already started and in the coming hours they will move to air bases from where they can start to take the necessary action.
The Government will table a substantive motion for debate next week, but I am sure that the House will accept that the situation requires us to move forward on the basis of the Security Council resolution immediately. I am sure that Members on both sides of the House call on Colonel Gaddafi to respond immediately to the will of the international community and cease the violence against his own people. I spoke to President Obama last night and to President Sarkozy this morning. There will be a clear statement later today, setting out what we now expect from Colonel Gaddafi.
We should never prepare to deploy British forces lightly or without careful thought. In this case, I believe that we have given extremely careful thought to the situation in hand. It is absolutely right that we played a leading role on the UN Security Council to secure permission for the action, and that we now work with allies to ensure that that resolution is brought about. There will be many people in our country who will now want questions answered about what we are doing and how we will go about it. I intend to answer all those questions in the hours and days ahead, and to work with our brave armed services to ensure that we do the right thing, for the people of Libya, for the people of our country and for the world as a whole.
Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab)
I thank the Prime Minister for his statement. From this side of the House, we welcome last night’s UN Security Council resolution and support Britain playing its full part in the international action that is planned.
The international community has shown clear resolve, and I applaud all the efforts that made this happen, including those of the Prime Minister and the British Government. As I have said since his statement two-and-a-half weeks ago, we support feasible and practical action to help the Libyan people, so, as befits the official Opposition, we will both support the Government and ask the necessary questions that we think the country will want asked.
It is important that the British people are clear about the purposes of the resolution and the basis for the commitment of British forces. Any decision to commit British armed forces is a grave and serious one, and it must be based on a clear and compelling case. In this case, it is based, as the Prime Minister said, on the clear evidence of Colonel Gaddafi brutalising his own people in response to the demand for democratic change.
It is action backed in the region most importantly by the clear resolution of the Arab League, and it is backed now by a legal mandate from the United Nations, so the military action that is being embarked upon has broad support, a legal base and recognises our responsibility to protect the Libyan people. Those are necessary pre-conditions for legitimate and effective action, and it would be quite wrong, given what is happening in Libya, for us to stand by and do nothing.
I want to ask some questions about the objectives of the mission, the military implications of it and the humanitarian context. First, we need to be clear about the purpose of the mission. All of us will welcome the passage of last night’s resolution to avoid the immediate slaughter of people in Benghazi. The whole world is aware of the urgency of the situation, given the avowed intentions of Colonel Gaddafi. Can the Prime Minister reassure us that military action can be taken on a time scale that can make a real difference to the people in Benghazi?
Beyond that, should, as we hope, the effect of last night’s resolution be to stop the advance of the regime, the future of Libya remains uncertain. Will the Prime Minister therefore explain the Government’s broader strategy for Libya’s future, should we succeed in stopping Colonel Gaddafi’s advance, given that last night’s resolution is directed towards a specific aim of the protection of the Libyan people, rather than explicitly towards regime change?
In this House there is agreement that Libya’s future would be far better served without Colonel Gaddafi in power. Does the Prime Minister therefore agree that a range of other measures should continue to be brought to bear on the Libyan regime to support the efforts of the Libyan people in order to undermine the support for Colonel Gaddafi?
We should be working now to sharpen the choice facing the Libyan military, including through action from the International Criminal Court, and to increase the pressure on other members of the regime. We should also be making explicit the risks for countries allowing their citizens to serve as mercenaries, and I believe the UN resolution does recognise that point. We should also continue to make clear to the Libyan people the offer of a better life that lies beyond Colonel Gaddafi.
May I urge the Prime Minister to ensure that discussions take place at the earliest stage with the Arab League, the European Union and others on a continuing basis for contingency planning for a stable and viable state beyond Colonel Gaddafi?
May I also, in the broader context of the region, emphasise to the Prime Minister that we should continue to show the utmost vigilance about developments elsewhere, including in Bahrain, and that we should make clear the need for reform and restraint, not repression, throughout the region?
Secondly, let me ask about the military action itself. Will the Prime Minister reassure us that all steps are being taken to ensure that those participating in any military action reflect the broad base of support, including from the Arab League? Does he agree that a continuing diplomatic effort will be required to ensure that that happens?
Further, under the contingencies that have been prepared and subject to the operational limits on what the Prime Minister can say, how does he envisage the military chain of command operating?
Thirdly, let me ask about the humanitarian situation in Libya. Will the Prime Minister take this opportunity to update the House on the continuing situation of British nationals in the light of the clearly changed circumstances that we now face? We will have all noted with concern the decision of the Red Cross, prior to the resolution, to withdraw from Benghazi. Will the Prime Minister assure the House that efforts will be made to ensure continuing humanitarian access to Benghazi? What plans are being made to facilitate the return of humanitarian assistance?
Finally, let me say to the Prime Minister that, at this time, Labour Members will give our full support to our armed forces. Once again, they are engaging in dangerous and courageous action on behalf of our country, and we salute their professionalism and bravery. They are serving to uphold the will of the international community, including the United Nations, and in their service I believe they will have the support of the whole House.
The Prime Minister
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his support and for the way in which he put that support in his questions. Let me try to answer all the questions he put.
In terms of the time scale and potential military action, the issue is this: the Security Council resolution is absolutely clear in its first paragraph that there should be a ceasefire and that Gaddafi should stop his attacks on his people. But, if that does not happen, then, yes, consequences and “all necessary measures”, as the Security Council resolution puts it, will follow; and we are able to do that on a time scale that I believe will be effective.
In terms of our broader strategy, what we believe we need in Libya is a transition towards a more open society and towards a better democracy, but we have to be clear about our aims. The UN Security Council resolution is absolutely clear that this is about saving lives and about protecting people. It is not about choosing the Government of Libya; that is an issue for the Libyan people.
Mercenaries are included in the UN Security Council resolution, which is welcome. The right hon. Gentleman’s point about the International Criminal Court was covered by the earlier resolution, which of course is still in force.
In terms of consultations with the Arab League and with Arab countries, there will be a meeting in Paris tomorrow, which President Sarkozy has called. I will attend, and there will also be representatives from across the Arab world to bring together the coalition to help to achieve the goals that the UN Security Council has so rightly voted for.
The right hon. Gentleman says that we must be vigilant elsewhere with all the challenging problems in our world today, and he mentioned Bahrain. That is absolutely right, and the Government are keeping their travel advice and their work helping British nationals in Bahrain, Yemen and elsewhere permanently under review, meeting regularly to try to make sure that we do everything we can to help people as necessary.
In terms of Arab League participation, what we seek is the active participation of some Arab League countries. I believe that we will get that, and from the calls that I have made I have had some reassurances.
In terms of the military chain of command, to be clear, to begin with this is going to be a joint operation, if necessary, carried out by Britain, America and France, with Arab and other participation, and it will be co-ordinated in that way.
In terms of British nationals, as we have announced before in the House, almost all those who want to leave have left. There are some who remain. We have our relationship with the Turkish embassy, which is working with us and for us in Tripoli, and we also have an active consular figure in Benghazi. But obviously, part of the aim of what we are trying to do—to stop Gaddafi entering Benghazi—will be in the interest of those British nationals in Benghazi.
The right hon. Gentleman asked about humanitarian aid. Clearly, a very big aim of the UN Security Council is to make sure humanitarian aid can get through.
Above all, as the right hon. Gentleman said, any decision to put the men and women of our armed forces into harm’s way should be taken only when absolutely necessary, but I believe, as he said, that we cannot stand back and let a dictator whose people have rejected him kill his people indiscriminately. To do so would send a chilling signal to others.
I believe also that we should be clear about where our interests lie. In this country, in particular, we know what Colonel Gaddafi is capable of, and we should not forget his support for the biggest terrorist atrocity on British soil. We simply cannot have a situation where a failed pariah state festers on Europe’s southern border, and that is why we are backing today our words with action.
Sir Malcolm Rifkind (Kensington) (Con)
May I congratulate the Prime Minister on the superb leadership that he and the Foreign Secretary have given both at home and at the United Nations in securing this resolution, without which the people of Benghazi and of Libya would face a humanitarian disaster?
Will the Prime Minister confirm that the UN resolution, which, as he has indicated, refers to
“all necessary measures…to protect…civilian populated areas”,
will enable our forces to be used not simply to intercept Libyan aircraft but if necessary to attack heavy artillery, tanks and other military units on the ground that might be threatening civilian populated areas?
The Prime Minister
I thank my right hon. and learned Friend for his support, and I agree that time is now crucial. It is vital that we have now got this UN Security Council resolution, and that we make very clear the ultimatum to Colonel Gaddafi so that we secure that ceasefire and stop his operations.
The right hon. and learned Gentleman asked what the Security Council permits us to do. Paragraph 4 refers, crucially, to “all necessary measures” to protect people—“to protect civilians”—and, indeed, specifically mentions Benghazi. The Attorney-General’s advice, which we may discuss in more detail later, makes it very clear that that means we can take measures that will help those things to be achieved. It is very important for us to understand that.
Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op)
I congratulate the Prime Minister and those in the Foreign Office, including our excellent diplomats at the United Nations, on the work that they have done in securing the chapter VII resolution. The French Government should also be given a great deal of credit, because they too have worked very hard on this.
Will the Prime Minister clarify the role of the African Union, which is referred to in the resolution, as well as that of the Arab League? Given that three African states, including South Africa, voted for the resolution, is there any possibility of the African Union using its good offices to try to find a way of getting Gaddafi out of power without the conflict going on for a very long time?
The Prime Minister
The hon. Gentleman makes an extremely good point about the leadership role taken by Nicolas Sarkozy and the French. I think the work that the French, the British and the Lebanese did together on the UN Security Council was vital. I absolutely pay tribute to our ambassador, Mark Lyall Grant, and his team, who did a superb job in marshalling support. Members in all parts of the House will see, when they read the resolution, that it is very, very strong and extremely comprehensive, and I hope that it marks a new start in what the UN will be able to achieve.
We very much hope that the African Union will use its good offices in the way that the hon. Gentleman suggests. African Union missions are still going to Libya, and we think that they will be enormously influential. I was particularly pleased that the three African members voted for the resolution, and I hope that that is a sign of things to come.
Richard Ottaway (Croydon South) (Con)
As one of the doubting Thomases of the past few weeks, I congratulate the Prime Minister on his success and leadership and offer him my full support. I also join him in paying tribute to Sir Mark Lyall Grant and his team at the UN for what is a remarkable diplomatic success, which hopefully will mark a turning point in the development of these issues at the UN.
I am sure the Prime Minister agrees that difficult questions remain. At this moment, however, it is incumbent on all of us to stand behind the armed forces, particularly our airmen, who have to implement the resolution.
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend is entirely right. Of course there are difficult questions. We are embarked on a difficult course, not least because we have set a limit on that course and have said, quite rightly, that this is not about an army of occupation. I think it important for us all to understand that that is a correct limit, and a limit that people across the Arab world want to hear.
I very much echo what my hon. Friend said about Mark Lyall Grant, but above all our thoughts—the thoughts of everyone in the House and, I am sure, everyone in our country—will be with those armed forces and their families who will be preparing, potentially, for difficult days ahead.
Mr Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP)
The Government and the armed forces have our full support in this matter.
The Prime Minister mentioned three criteria for determining the appropriateness of intervention, but surely there is another factor: the question of whether we have the capacity and the military assets to intervene in situations such as this. In the light of developments in the middle east in recent weeks, will the Prime Minister and his colleagues have another look at the strategic defence and security review to establish whether our country will continue to have those assets in future?
The Prime Minister
Of course I look very carefully at every decision that we make in defence, and I see it as a personal priority for me as Prime Minister. I would say to colleagues, however, that even at the end of this defence review and the end of this Parliament, we will have the fourth largest defence budget anywhere in the world. We have superbly equipped armed forces, and many of the decisions that we made in the defence review were intended to ensure that they had flexibility: the ability to deploy, the ability to act out of area, extra investment in special forces, and extra investment in transport.
I should also point out that the Typhoons that we are considering using are not in any way involved in Afghanistan. I have been given assurances by the Chief of the Defence Staff that our planning for what may be necessary in Libya does not affect the efforts that we are making in Afghanistan with our allies to bring greater security to that country.
Mr James Arbuthnot (North East Hampshire) (Con)
Yet again, my right hon. Friend has shown a breathtaking degree of courage and leadership. I support what he has said and what he has done. Does he agree that, while regime change is not the aim of these resolutions, in practice there is little realistic chance of achieving their aims without regime change?
The Prime Minister
My right hon. Friend puts it extremely well. The aim is clear: to put in place what has been required by the UN Security Council, which is a cessation of hostilities. It is the protection of lives and the protection of people. It is the prevention of a bloodbath in Benghazi. It is to make sure that arms do not get to Libya, that assets are frozen and that travel bans are imposed. It is all those things. Those are the aims, and they are what we must now pursue.
Of course, like many other leaders the world over, we have all said that Gaddafi needs to go in order for Libya to have a peaceful, successful and democratic future, and that remains the case. It is almost impossible to envisage a future for Libya that includes him. But we should be very clear, in the international alliance that we are building, that the statements in the UN Security Council resolution are our aims. Those are the things that, on behalf of the rest of the world, we are helping, with others, to deliver.
Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)
Abuses of human rights and the oppression of civilians are not unique to Libya. They may differ in degree, but they are not unique. Is the Prime Minister now suggesting that we should develop a foreign policy that would be prepared to countenance intervention in other countries where there are attacks on civilians, such as Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Oman or Bahrain? I hope that he has thought this whole thing through, because we may well be involved in a civil war in Libya for some time to come.
The Prime Minister
I sometimes want to meet that argument with the answer that the fact that you cannot do the right thing everywhere does not mean that you should not do the right thing somewhere. A more detailed answer, however, is that what is happening in Libya is different. The situation is that of a people rising up against their leaders and wanting a more democratic future, and then us watching as, potentially, those people are destroyed by that dictator.
As I have said, I think that what we see coming together here is Britain acting with others in favour of international law and international governance and the UN and all that is right and fair and decent in our world, yet, at the same time, I believe, very much acting in our national interest, because it is not in our national interest for this man to lead a pariah state on the southern banks of Europe with all the problems that that could entail. So I hope that, not just across the world but across this country, we shall be able to build the broadest coalition for support for the action we are taking, encompassing all those who care about the UN and international law and what is good and right in our world, but who also recognise that a hard-headed assessment of British national interest means that we should not stand aside from this.
Stephen Gilbert (St Austell and Newquay) (LD)
I welcome the Prime Minister’s statement and last night’s United Nations resolution. I think it is absolutely right for the international community to take urgent action to protect civilians in Libya. Will the Prime Minister please assure me that our intelligence assets in the region are doing all that they can to monitor the activities of, and communication between, senior regime leaders and commanders, with a view to ensuring that we can prosecute them to the fullest extent of international law?
The Prime Minister
Obviously—as the hon. Gentleman knows—we never comment on security and intelligence matters in the House. However, his point about the International Criminal Court and the need to be clear about the fact that, as I have said, international law should have a long arm, a long reach and a long memory and that we should gather evidence for that, is absolutely right.
Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab)
Given the unpredictability of the outcomes in Libya and the middle east, and given that all actions have consequences, how can the Prime Minister be so sure that, as a consequence of what we are doing, a complex and dangerous situation will not simply be made worse?
The Prime Minister
The hon. Lady asks a very important question. It seems to me that we have to look at the consequences of doing nothing—the slaughter that could ensue, the oppression of these people we see so clearly on our television screens—and then ask what are the consequences of action. What is so convincing in this case is that the Arab League countries and Arab populations are, I believe, willing the international community on. I think that the opinion on the Arab street is very much that it is good that the international community is coming together and showing that it cares about our democracy and not just your security. I think that we can win that argument, but we will have to go on making it with Arab leaders and Arab populations, and making sure that we communicate with them very strongly why we are doing this and why it is the right thing.
Nicholas Soames (Mid Sussex) (Con)
I join others in congratulating the Prime Minister, the Foreign Secretary and all the others who have been involved in securing this very tough resolution, and indeed the building of a broad-based coalition to deal with Gaddafi. Does the Prime Minister agree, however, that in the weeks to come it will be important for the country to know that at the same time as trying to deal with Gaddafi, the Government are also intent on forging ahead, with our European partners, in keeping the middle east peace process revitalised and going, so that we can draw the poison from the well?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend makes an extremely good point. A Palestinian leader once said to me, “If you really want to secure the long-term defeat of al-Qaeda, there must be a combination of more democracy and freedom across north Africa and the middle east and a solution to the Israel-Palestine problem.” Those two things together will go to the heart of the problems we face in our world.
Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)
As someone who has argued all along that any military action should be based on a resolution of the United Nations Security Council, I accept that the situation today is different from yesterday and previously. Nevertheless, despite all that the Prime Minister has said about reservations, no ground troops and so forth, does he recognise that in the country at large there is bound to be great anxiety that we could be dragged, through escalation, into a third war in nine years? Therefore, will the Prime Minister make sure that there are daily—or at least very regular—reports to the House of Commons, so we avoid a third war?
The Prime Minister
The hon. Gentleman puts the point extremely well. I agree that there should be regular statements updating the House. We should start with a debate on Monday on a substantive motion, so that Members can debate that, and propose amendments if they want. We will be putting down that substantive motion later today, so that colleagues can have a look at it.
On taking the country with us, the hon. Gentleman’s point about legality is vital. We have a legal basis here—the UN, the world’s governing body, coming together and making that clear—and we need to explain that what we are doing is legal, proportionate and right. But I also believe that, as I said a moment ago, to take people with us we have to make the arguments both that it is wrong to stand aside as this dictator massacres his own people and it is in our interests to act, and also that it is in our national interest, because we do not want this pariah state on our borders.
The point the hon. Gentleman makes about no ground troops and no occupying force is vital. That is in the UN Security Council resolution; it is the reassurance that we can give to people that that is not part of our aims—it is not want the UN wants, it is not what the Arab League wants, it is not what Britain wants. That is clearly a limitation on our ability to act, but it is absolutely right, and I think people will be reassured by it.
Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con)
May I also commend my right hon. Friend on his decisive leadership? Why does he think Germany abstained on this resolution, and is Germany going to be interfering in preventing us from recognising the regime in Benghazi?
The Prime Minister
I thank my hon. Friend very much for his support. On the German attitude, to be fair to the German Chancellor, whom I spoke to last night, she has been consistently sceptical about this issue. I do not believe that Germany will in any way be destructive within NATO, because it recognises that the UN has voted for this resolution, on which the Germans, of course, abstained. It is for them to explain their scepticism. Of course arguments can always be made about, “If we are acting here, why not elsewhere?” But as I have said, in this instance the case for action and the world coming together is very strong.
Joan Ruddock (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab)
May I also congratulate the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary on the action they have taken? I hope the Prime Minister will join me in also congratulating President Obama, who by his cautious deliberations has allowed the Arab states to come to the fore, and, unlike his predecessor, has shown proper respect for the United Nations, thus giving a major boost to the rule of international law.
The Prime Minister
The right hon. Lady makes an extremely good point and is absolutely right. I had a very good conversation with President Obama last night, and I think he has shown great leadership on the UN and what is proposed in the new resolution, and on being able to bring together its various elements. The right hon. Lady is right that allowing the Arab League the space and time to come forward and make its own views clear has helped to create a sense of consensus at the UN, where we have the ability to act. But the clock is now ticking, and we now need a sense of urgency, because we do not want to see a bloodbath in Benghazi, and further repression and taking of innocent civilian life in Libya.
Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)
I join my right hon. and hon. Friends in congratulating my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister on his brilliant success at the United Nations, which is a vindication of the credibility of British foreign policy. Can he say more about the strategic objective, which, as Lord Dannatt and others have clearly stated, must be extremely clear? My right hon. Friend is committed to regime change, but are our allies, and in particular President Obama, committed to regime change?
The Prime Minister
The answer I give my hon. Friend is that almost every leader in the free world has said Gaddafi needs to go—that his regime is illegitimate and there is no future for Libya with him in charge—but we must be clear about the aim of what we are now involved in. The aim is to put in place the UN Security Council resolution, which is about protecting people’s lives and about the steps we are prepared to take to isolate the regime and give that country the chance of a better future. We must restrict ourselves to that aim in meeting this UN Security Council resolution. Obviously, we have a desire, which I and others have expressed, that Gaddafi has no future, but our aim here must be clear, and that is how we must drive this alliance forward.
Mr Tom Watson (West Bromwich East) (Lab)
Now that the UN has reasserted its authority with this resolution, it is important that Gaddafi is in no doubt that there is an overwhelming military force to carry it out. In that light, how many countries does the Prime Minister wish to provide military assets, and how many of them come from the Arab League?
The Prime Minister
The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. Obviously, we want the widest alliance possible. I do not think it would be right for me to name at the Dispatch Box those countries that are considering participation, but there is a wide number. Clearly, at the heart of this are the Americans, the French and the British, but other European countries are coming forward, and there are also some in the Arab League, including a number I have spoken to, who have talked about active participation—about playing a part in this. One of the purposes of the meeting tomorrow in Paris will be to bring together the widest possible coalition of those who want to support it, and I believe, particularly as this has such strong UN backing, that it will be a very wide coalition indeed.
Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)
Speaking as someone who has watched well-armed Bosnian Serb units smash through civilian populations, may I ask my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister whether Security Council resolution 1973 allows us, under its provision on “all necessary measures”, to avoid the arms embargo and directly arm the people who are fighting against Gaddafi in Benghazi and elsewhere?
The Prime Minister
The first point I would make to my hon. Friend is how welcome it was that Bosnia was sitting on the Security Council and able to vote in favour of this resolution—for good historical reasons. The resolution helps to enforce the arms embargo, and our legal understanding is that that arms embargo applies to the whole of Libya. Paragraph 4 authorises member states
“to take all necessary measures…to protect civilians and civilian populated areas under threat of attack”
in Libya, including Benghazi. That is very strong language, which allows states to take a number of military steps to protect people and harm those who are intending to damage civilians. It could not be clearer, and the legal advice is clear.
Let me make this point as well: while I think we should maintain the convention that the Government are entitled to have legal advice and to receive that legal advice privately, I also think it is right on these sorts of occasions that a summary of legal advice should be published so the House of Commons can see and debate it, and we will make sure that is done well in advance of the debate on Monday.
Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab)
Given that the Gaddafi forces are advancing, what assessment has the Prime Minister made of civilian casualties and what discussions has he had on any post-conflict reconstruction, learning the lessons of Iraq?
The Prime Minister
The right hon. Gentleman makes an extremely good point. It is clear that there have been widespread civilian casualties, and I quoted some figures in my statement. It is also clear that if Gaddafi goes into Benghazi the situation could get radically worse, which is why, as I have said, the clock is ticking—the time for action is now. In terms of reconstruction and humanitarian aid, my right hon. Friend the International Development Secretary will be leading a cross-government group to make sure we do everything we can to bring all our resources to bear—we have considerable resources in this area—working with others to make sure that we get humanitarian aid to every part of that country and that we plan for the future.
Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)
One of the factors that caused Gaddafi to abandon his programme of weapons of mass destruction in the 1990s was that he knew he was on the verge of being indicted for war crimes by the UN Special Court for Sierra Leone, so he well understands both the power and the reach of international criminal law. Will my right hon. Friend try to ensure that the International Criminal Court makes it very clear that it is not only Gaddafi who stands at risk of being indicted by the ICC, but all those around him who are most responsible for war crimes and crimes against humanity?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend makes an extremely good point, and we are making sure not only that Gaddafi and his immediate colleagues know they are in danger of going in front of the ICC, but that all those who choose to back the regime and carry out war crimes know that they are also in that danger. In addition, anyone who thinks of being a mercenary, of organising mercenaries or of organising arms shipments to that regime are covered in the same way. Communicating that message in all the ways that we can is vitally important work.
John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)
I support the freedom struggle of the Libyan people and I am a supporter of the United Nations, but I have grave concerns about the use of force by western powers in this region, and both the short-term and long-term consequences. It therefore behoves us to ask the question: what next? In the short-term, in the interests of conflict resolution, is there to be a final offer from the United Nations to Gaddafi for peace talks? If armed conflict goes ahead, what measures are being put in place to ensure the safety of civilians? In particular, may I urge the Prime Minister that there should be no use of depleted uranium weapons, which have damaged the long-term safety of the civilians in Iraq? Given the change of regimes that has taken place in this region, given what is happening in Bahrain and given the continued oppression of the Palestinian people, may I urge him to go to the United Nations and say that now is the opportune time to re-establish a middle eastern conference that looks at the long-term security and peace of this region?
The Prime Minister
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his question. What the UN is suggesting is very clear. Paragraph 1
“Demands the immediate establishment of a cease-fire and a complete end to violence and all attacks against, and abuses of, civilians”.
Paragraph 2
“Stresses the need to intensify efforts to find a solution to the crisis which responds to the legitimate demands of the Libyan people”.
The point that I would make to the hon. Gentleman is this: if we make this statement and give this ultimatum, and in a way, the UN has given this ultimatum; if Gaddafi does not respond and goes on brutalising his people; and if in those circumstances we say that we are not prepared to use force to protect civilians, with all the backing of the UN, with all the backing of international law, with the Arab League behind us and with the world saying that this is right—if not then, when?
The hon. Gentleman does need to think about this, because although there should, of course, be all sorts of things holding you back before you take action, and there are all the questions you should ask, when there is this degree of international backing, and if Gaddafi will not stop the brutalising of civilians, there is a complete legitimisation of taking action to protect those civilians.
Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) (Con)
May I, too, congratulate the Prime Minister on his spectacularly successful leadership and the amazing turnaround that he has achieved? Will he tell the House a little more about the discussions he is having with members of the Arab League about the role that they may be able to play in supporting this resolution?
The Prime Minister
The encouraging thing is, first, that the Arab League came forward so clearly and asked for a no-fly zone. The contact I had, including on my trip to the Gulf, was that so many were so clear that Gaddafi was illegitimate and that what he was doing was wrong. There was a genuine sense of outrage at what he was doing. The key now is to try to encourage the Arab League and its members, and not just in those words and great sentiments: we need to encourage them to participate actively, so that the world can see that if action is necessary, there are Arab planes alongside French, British or American planes taking part in the action to protect civilians in Libya. That is extremely important and we should do everything we can to secure it.
Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab)
I welcome last night’s UN resolution; this is not Iraq, but it is an important test of the international community’s willingness to protect civilians from the immediate danger of slaughter. Given the importance of keeping the Arab world on board in this endeavour, will the Prime Minister tell the House a bit more about his objectives for tomorrow’s meeting in Paris?
The Prime Minister
The first objective of tomorrow’s meeting in Paris is to bring together in person those Arab leaders that President Sarkozy, President Obama and I have been speaking to in recent days so that we can discuss the importance of having the widest possible alliance to prosecute the implementation of this UN Security Council resolution. That is the most important thing. Even before then, a range of planning activity and, as I said in my statement, logistics activity needs to take place. We must quicken the contacts we have with all those Arab countries, but I hope that tomorrow we will see a visible demonstration of the world coming together to say, “This man must stop what he is doing and if he doesn’t, there will be very severe consequences.”
Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD)
The Prime Minister has made a credible and convincing case for joint action to protect Libyan civilians whose lives are threatened by Gaddafi, a despot with a record of international terrorism and internal terror. However, there is a significant risk of stalemate if a no-fly zone can be established in time and Gaddafi’s air force and helicopters are grounded. Can the Prime Minister say which organisations or nations have indicated that they would be willing to play a part in breaking such a stalemate if indeed it arises?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend makes a very good point. Of course there is a danger of stalemate, as he says. At that point there could be a role for organisations such as the African Union to try to bring this situation to a close, but as we stand today Colonel Gaddafi has not ceased his attacks on Benghazi or on people in Libya. That provides the urgency for this resolution, the action that we are preparing to take and the ultimatum that we will give. Of course, if he accedes, there could be a role for the African Union and for others.
Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab)
The Prime Minister talks about the need to think about the consequences of our action or inaction. One possible consequence is that Gaddafi is left weakened and alienated but not defeated. What consideration has been given to that scenario and, in particular, the implications for security and stability in the region and more widely?
The Prime Minister
The hon. Lady makes a very good point, and we have to consider all of these issues. The point I would make is that the reason why Gaddafi is weakened and insecure is because his people rose up and said that they wanted no more of him and that they wanted to have a more open and democratic future. I believe that in response to that we have been right, and others have been right, to encourage the Arab world and the north African world to move in a more democratic direction. She is absolutely right to say that from a national security perspective we have to consider all the implications of what is happening in Libya. The Home Secretary will be looking at the consequences for migration and we need to look at the consequences in terms of security policy too. The hon. Lady is entirely right in that view.
Mr Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con)
Although today’s statement has understandably focused on military and diplomatic issues, a huge humanitarian crisis is already taking place, with a large number of Libyans having already fled and crossed the Mediterranean to Malta, Italy and other places. I was very encouraged by what the Prime Minister had to say about the role of the Department for International Development. Would he recognise that many of us in this House and countless millions of our constituents are equally proud of the very strong soft power that our nation is able to utilise and which we hope it will utilise in these difficult weeks and months ahead?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend makes an extremely good point, and I will stress again what the International Development Secretary will be doing. Obviously, he will be looking at what has been happening on Libya’s borders—we have discussed that before—but he will also be looking at the issues within Libya itself. There is no doubt in my mind that in this situation soft power has had an enormous effect on giving people a sense that a better future is available to them and that they do not have to put up with the regimes that they have had to put up with for so long. Despite the fact that there may be difficult days ahead, as we grapple with implementing this UN Security Council resolution, we should lift our heads up and believe that there is a more hopeful future for this region and, therefore, for our world.
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
I am sure that the whole House will wish the Prime Minister well as he discharges his duties in relation to Libya over the coming days, because he will face many much more complex decisions than those he has already had to take and they will affect life and death in Libya. We all want to see Gaddafi gone and we want to see everybody in Benghazi protected, but is the Prime Minister anxious about Russia’s abstention? Will he make sure that cluster munitions, which are banned for British troops, will also be banned by all those others who are taking part in this, because in many cases it is the aftershock of cluster munitions that devastates the civilian population?
The Prime Minister
The hon. Gentleman makes a good point about cluster munitions. We do not use those munitions and we do not believe that others should either.
On the Russian abstention, and indeed the Chinese abstention, all I would observe is that this is, in many ways, quite a welcome step forward. We are talking here about a very tough resolution on what has happened in another country where people are being brutalised. In years gone by, we might have expected to see Security Council vetoes. The fact that we have not is a very positive step forward for international law, for international right, and for the future of our world.
Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con)
Time, of course, remains of the essence, and those who are resisting may well need arms rapidly. Paragraph 4 of the resolution, which my right hon. Friend did not mention, says
“notwithstanding paragraph 9 of resolution 1970”,
and relates to the arms embargo. Does not that provide an avenue, through a committee of sanctions of the United Nations, to allow arms to be supplied, as sub-paragraph (c) of paragraph 9 appears to suggest, to those resisting Gaddafi in Benghazi and thereabouts?
The Prime Minister
I always worry when my hon. Friend mentions the word “notwithstanding”; a small chill goes up my spine. I think I am right in saying that the resolution is clear: there is an arms embargo, and that arms embargo has to be enforced across Libya. The legal advice that others have mentioned, and that we believe some other countries were interested in, suggesting that perhaps this applied only to the regime, is not in fact correct.
Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)
In the next few difficult months, can we ensure, as well as we can, that we do not damage the Libyan water and energy infrastructure and thereby make things difficult for the wider Libyan population?
The Prime Minister
The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right, first, to say that in many ways the easy decisions have been made, and now there are the difficult times and the difficult decisions have to be made. I am acutely conscious of that. His point about Libyan resources is entirely right. If Gaddafi will not cease his war on his own people and if military action has to be taken, we need to make sure that that is done commensurate with international law and trying to avoid, wherever possible, collateral damage, civilian casualties, and all the other things that he says. That is absolutely vital in all that we want to do, not least in keeping the largest possible coalition of people in this country and around the world, including in the Arab world, behind what the United Nations has authorised.
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
I would like to thank the Prime Minister for coming to the House so early to make this statement. He is clearly right to take very seriously the deployment of British troops. In that regard, could not the substantive motion that he has mentioned be debated later this evening or tomorrow morning, before the troops are actually deployed?
The Prime Minister
Obviously, I considered this carefully, and we discussed it at Cabinet this morning. We felt that the best approach was to give time for the tabling of a substantive motion today, which I believe has to be done by 2.30 pm. If we do that in advance, it will give anyone who wants to suggest an amendment the chance to do so, and then there can be a proper debate on Monday. Actually, I considered whether it would be better to hold the debate on Tuesday to give people more chance to consider what may or may not have happened over the weekend, but I think that the House will be anxious to have that debate, so I judged, and the Cabinet judged, that a debate on Monday on a substantive motion that can be amended is the right thing to do.
Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab)
What UN resolutions say and what they are subsequently interpreted to say can be very different. What assurances can the Prime Minister give to the House that it will be different this time, particularly bearing in mind the number of abstentions we had last night?
The Prime Minister
The point I would make to the hon. Gentleman is that this resolution seems to me to be extremely clear in that it has the call for a ceasefire, it has the no-fly zone, it has all necessary measures for a no-fly zone, it has the need to protect civilians, and all the necessary measures for civilians, alongside all the other issues about travel bans, asset seizures and the rest of it. It is a very clear resolution. As I say, I am very conscious that as we go ahead, we want to take people with us. That will inevitably be a difficult path, because every action has a consequence. However, I particularly welcome the fact that the resolution says so clearly that there must not be an occupying force. I think that sends such a clear signal to the Arab world, to the Muslim world, and to people in our own country, scarred by what has happened in the past, that that will not happen again. As I have said, there are some limits on us, but I think that in this circumstance, that is absolutely right.
Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)
I thank my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister for his statement. Recent history has shown that commencing military action such as this is rather like entering a maze—it is easier to get in than to get out. Given that the Libyan rebels will always be at risk for as long as Colonel Gaddafi is still in power, will not our involvement therefore have to continue while his regime remains in place?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend makes an extremely good point. Of course, there is always a case that goes something like, “Don’t start down this path because it might involve you taking so many difficult steps to achieve it.” It seems to me that the stronger argument is that it is better to act than to stand back and do nothing, and witness the slaughter of civilians, when that is so clearly not in our national interest. It is better to act than to remain passive. We have set limits on what we are able to do, because we cannot have an occupying force. I believe that what we are doing can help to protect civilians and can, over time, help to bring about a better future for Libya.
Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)
I welcome the UN resolution, but I oppose Britain’s military involvement in implementing it. The UN resolution is not to secure a no-fly zone for humanitarian protection, but an extraordinary authorisation of regime change. Unless the Prime Minister believes that Libya’s Arab and African neighbours lack the capacity or the compassion for their Libyan brothers and sisters to act independently, why does he insist on putting British military personnel at risk?
The Prime Minister
Obviously I respect the hon. Gentleman’s view, but it seems to me that if we will the end, we should also will the means to that end. We should never overestimate Britain’s size or capabilities, but neither should we underestimate them. We have one of the finest armed services in the world. We are one of the world’s leading military powers, and we also have huge strength in diplomacy, soft power and development. We should not play a disproportionate part, but I think that we should play a proportionate part alongside allies such as France, America and the Arab world. To say that we should pass such a resolution but then just stand back and hope that someone, somewhere in the Arab world will bring it about is profoundly wrong.
Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con)
I too commend the Prime Minister’s statement, and his courage and leadership. The Prime Minister will be aware of the significant position of Cyprus in the region, not least because of its sovereign bases. Does he anticipate the use of those bases in the implementation of the no-fly zone, and has that been agreed with the Government of Cyprus?
The Prime Minister
I do not want to go into too much detail about deployments. However, perhaps I could use this opportunity to make the point to those who have expressed concern about aircraft carriers that if we undergo operations in the southern Mediterranean to provide a no-fly zone and to carry out all necessary measures, the fact that there are so many friendly countries and members of NATO, such as France and Italy, means that there are plenty of opportunities for the basing of aircraft to ensure that we can deliver the effect that is needed.
David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP)
I join colleagues in congratulating the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary on their success. I think that this is a tremendous outcome. Of course, those of us in Northern Ireland will shed no tears over Mr Gaddafi, especially given his role over the years in supplying weapons to butcher British citizens on the streets of Northern Ireland. Is the Prime Minister in a position to give us an update, as was mentioned earlier in the debate, on whether the Red Cross will be active on the ground?
The Prime Minister
First, the hon. Gentleman is absolutely right that people in Northern Ireland have every right to remember the hurt and pain that they were caused by Gaddafi’s funding of the IRA—a wrong that has still not been properly righted. On the issue of the Red Cross, I will ask the International Development Secretary to contact the hon. Gentleman separately to make clear the position.
Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con)
I too congratulate the Prime Minister. Just yesterday, I voiced my concern that inertia could lead to our generation’s Rwanda. I am glad that he, along with others, has secured agreement to this resolution. I am sure that that was helped by the chilling words that Colonel Gaddafi issued in his radio interview. He has also mentioned attacks on civilian aircraft. Has the Security Council been able to assess that threat? Is it just the empty hot air of a tyrant who knows that his days in power are numbered?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend is right to draw the House’s attention to what Gaddafi has said. He has said chilling words about what he plans to do to his own country and people, and he must be stopped. I too heard the reported remarks about civilian aircraft. Be in no doubt that, even aside from a UN Security Council resolution, every country has the right under international law to self-defence—a right that could be exercised in full.
Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab)
Will the right hon. Gentleman agree that the merit of the operation to liberate Kuwait in 1991 was that it was finite and established order, and that the disaster of the war in Iraq in 2003 was that after it was won, efforts were made by outsiders to install a Government, which resulted in chaos and terrorism? Will he assure the House that those lessons have been learned?
The Prime Minister
I absolutely give the right hon. Gentleman that assurance. It seems to me that we have to learn both the lessons of Iraq, by proceeding with the maximum Arab support and being very clear that there will be no army of occupation, and the lessons of Bosnia and not stand aside and witness a slaughter. It falls to Cabinets and Governments at this time, though, to recognise that no two situations are exactly alike. This is not Iraq; it is not Bosnia; it is not Lebanon; it is unique and different. We have to respond to it and use the right judgment to try to get our response correct. That is what this Government are determined to do, and as I have said, we are determined to take as many people with us as possible.
Nick Boles (Grantham and Stamford) (Con)
May I thank the Prime Minister for his singular service over the past few weeks? Will he join me in paying tribute to those who will render an even greater service—the young men and women on whose skills, training and courage we will rely, as we have so often in our past?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend is absolutely right to make that point. It is not the people who make the decisions who have the difficult choices and the difficult path ahead; it is those who have to carry out those decisions. We should be incredibly proud of our armed forces, of their professionalism, courage and dedication and of their ability to take on a task such as this and pursue it with such vigour. It is inspiring to see it happen. We should never take them for granted or ask them to do tasks that they cannot complete, but I have full confidence that they will perform magnificently, as they always do.
Mr Sam Gyimah (East Surrey) (Con)
May I add my voice to those of many other Members in congratulating the Prime Minister on what he has achieved, especially in the context of a coalition Government?
Can the Prime Minister give the House a sense of how long he expects the military engagement that we are about to embark on to last?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend refers to the coalition Government, and let me put on record what strong support I and the Foreign Secretary have had from Members from right across the coalition and right across the House of Commons. Ministers from both parties have been involved in the lobbying effort with other countries, and they have done an extremely good job.
I do not want to go into too much detail about what could happen if Gaddafi does not do what is set out in the UN Security Council resolution, but as I have said, it is important that action would follow relatively rapidly. Obviously we want to do what is necessary to ensure that the terms of it are met.
Stephen Phillips (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)
May I echo the congratulations from throughout the House to my right hon. Friends for the courage that they have demonstrated during the past week?
One difficulty that the last Administration had in relation to the war in Iraq was a general belief in the country that the war was not legal. I therefore welcome my right hon. Friend’s assurances that the legal advice will be published in summary. In order that there can be confidence across the country in the legality of the action that the Government are taking, that advice needs to be as full as possible. It also needs to deal with the point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart). Can my right hon. Friend assure me that that will be the case, and that we will see the advice as soon as possible?
The Prime Minister
I can promise my hon. and learned Friend that he will see a summary position of the advice before the debate on Monday. I would say that, although I am never one to denigrate lawyers and their important work in any way, if he wants to see the legal basis, it is all there in the UN Security Council resolution. It is the strongest possible statement. I am glad to see the Attorney-General sitting next to me while I make those kind remarks about lawyers. I would very much recommend reading the resolution to see how strong the legal basis is.
Sajid Javid (Bromsgrove) (Con)
May I thank the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary for showing world leadership in an hour of need? The biggest risk to our national security would have been to do nothing at all. We cannot risk the emergence of another failed state at our southern tip exporting terror and human misery. Now that the UN has agreed on action, will the Prime Minister ensure that the action is swift, powerful and precise, and will he involve the broadest coalition possible, especially our Arab allies?
The Prime Minister
We should do everything that is necessary to bring about the UN Security Council resolution’s conclusions. That is what our aim should be and is what should guide us, and everything we do should be proportionate to that. I say to my hon. Friend that yes, we have made a choice, and it is a choice to play our part in joint international action to enforce international law, to uphold the will of the UN Security Council and to respond to the calls from Arab countries and the Arab League, and also to do the right thing for the people of Libya, who want greater freedoms, and above all, I think, for the UK’s national interest as well.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
One of the difficult things about no-fly zones is setting them up in the first place by taking out the air defence assets of the country involved, especially if they are deployed in areas of civilian population. What lessons have been learned from experience in Iraq and Bosnia about how best to do that?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend makes an important point. Our military have been involved in several no-fly zones over many years, and considerable lessons have therefore been learned. I do not pretend for one minute that it is easy. Indeed, I have never said that a no-fly zone is either easy to establish or the whole answer to bringing the appalling conflict by Gaddafi against his people to an end. However, it is one element of what is necessary to turn the pressure up further, and say that what we are seeing is simply not right.
Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood) (Con)
The Prime Minister has informed the House that we are preparing to deploy Tornadoes and Typhoons to relevant air bases. Would it assist if HMS Ark Royal was also deployed in the Mediterranean with a Harrier strike force? Will he bolster our position by reconsidering the decision to decommission those forces before it is too late?
The Prime Minister
It is not necessary, to carry out the operations that we are considering, to have an aircraft carrier. Indeed, other counties have not moved aircraft carriers to the area and the reason is in an answer I gave earlier. In that part of the world in particular, several bases are available to provide the basing to carry out the required operations. It is extremely important to bear that in mind.
Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)
I congratulate the Prime Minister on obtaining the international, legal humanitarian intervention in Libya. May I ask him to clarify the position? Will we join France in recognising the rebels as the alternative Government?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend asks a good question. As he knows, in this country, we recognise countries rather than Governments. What matters is making contact and having communications with the transitional authorities, and speaking to and building a relationship with them. That is the right way to proceed.
Greg Hands (Chelsea and Fulham) (Con)
May I, too, congratulate the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary on leading international opinion on the matter? I also welcome my right hon. Friend’s comments that we do not intervene unless in exceptional circumstances. That is an excellent contrast with the position on Iraq in 2003. This time, we have a positive legal opinion from the Attorney-General and the whole thing has been properly signed off by the United Nations.
The Prime Minister
I just wanted to ensure in the Cabinet meeting this morning that members could read the UN Security Council resolution, the Attorney-General’s legal advice and a draft of my statement. There will be difficult days ahead—these things never go entirely according to plan. There are always problems down the road. It is therefore important that the Cabinet makes a decision, drives it through and does what is necessary to achieve the goal that the whole House supports: the enforcement of the UN Security Council resolution, which will make our world a safer place.
Japan and the Middle East
Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton Excerpts(13 years, 2 months ago)
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The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron)
Before I turn to discussions at last week’s European Council, I am sure that the whole House will wish to join me in sending our deepest condolences to the Japanese people following the earthquake and tsunami that struck their country on Friday. We are all deeply shocked and saddened by the devastation that we have seen, and by the loss of life, the full scale of which will take many days, and possibly weeks, to comprehend. I am sure that the thoughts of everyone in this House, and indeed of everyone in our country, are with the Japanese people—we stand with you at this time.
As yet, there are no confirmed British fatalities, but we have severe concerns about a number of British nationals. I have spoken with our ambassador in Japan, who was one of the first to get to the affected region, and his team are working around the clock to help British nationals. Over the weekend we have had three rapid deployment teams of staff operating in the worst-affected areas, and they will be augmented by a further team that will be arriving in Tokyo this afternoon and advancing to the north-east of the country tomorrow. They will help to find out information for the families who are rightly very worried about relatives potentially caught up in this tragedy. We have set up a helpline for these families. It has taken several thousand calls and we are following up each lead. We have, of course, offered humanitarian assistance to the Japanese Government and we stand ready to assist in any way that we can. At their request, a 63-strong UK search and rescue team, which includes medical personnel, has already been deployed and it arrived in Japan yesterday morning.
The whole House will have been concerned at the worrying situation at the nuclear power station at Fukushima. The Japanese Government have said that the emergency cooling systems at three reactors at the plant have failed because of the tsunami and there have been explosions due to the release of hydrogen gas at both the Fukushima 1 and Fukushima 3 reactors. This is clearly a very fast-moving and rapidly changing picture and the Japanese Government are doing everything they can to manage the situation they face. We will keep the House updated. We are in close touch with the Japanese authorities and have offered our nuclear expertise if we can help to manage this very serious incident.
The Energy Secretary has asked our chief nuclear inspector, Dr. Mike Weightman, for a thorough report on the implications of the situation in Japan. The UK does not have reactors of the design of those in Fukushima and neither does it plan any; nor, obviously, are we in a seismically sensitive zone. But if there are lessons to learn, we must learn them.
Cobra has met several times over the weekend and again this morning, and we will keep our response to this tragedy and our support for Japan and the wider Pacific region under close and continuous review. Of course, that goes for our travel advice as well.
The devastation we are witnessing in Japan is of truly colossal proportions. It has been heartbreaking to listen to people who have had all their relatives, their friends, their possessions and their homes simply washed away. Those who have survived will not recognise the place where their homes once stood. We do not yet know the full and dreadful death toll, nor can anyone truly understand the impact that these events will have, but Japan and the Japanese people are a resilient and resourceful nation. Britain and the British people are your friends and we have no doubt you will recover.
Let me turn to Friday’s special European Council and north Africa. The reason for having this Council was twofold: first, to make sure Europe seizes the moment of opportunity to support the Arab people in north Africa and across the middle east in realising their aspirations for a more open and democratic form of government; and, secondly, to address the difficult situation in Libya. The Council addressed both issues and I will be frank with the House about where progress has been made and where more needs to be done.
First, on supporting the building blocks of democracy in the Arab world, the aim should be a big bold offer to those countries in our southern neighbourhood that want to move towards being more open societies. There was some real success on this point. The Council declaration talks of a “new partnership” founded on
“broader market access and political cooperation”
with an approach that gears support to those countries where progress is being made in meeting their citizens’ aspirations. That could be so much better than the failed approach of the past, but now Europe needs to follow through on its declaration with a real and credible offer to those countries. In my view, it must be based on the prospects of deeper economic and trade integration with the EU and free movement of goods, services and investment.
Turning to Libya, it was right for the EU to meet and discuss how we can work together to deal with the crisis. There has been considerable international co-operation on evacuation and I will bring the House up to date on the figures. We now have got more than 600 British nationals out and assisted more than 30 other nationalities. About 220 British nationals remain in Libya. The overwhelming majority of these are long-term residents and many, of course, are dual nationals or spouses of Libyan nationals. Many of that group have told us that they wish to remain in Libya, but a number of other British nationals are now contacting us for the first time. We will stay in contact with these people and continue to assist those who wish to leave.
We have also been at the forefront of the response to the humanitarian situation in Libya and on its borders. We remain deeply concerned by the situation for people inside Libya caught up in fierce fighting and the Development Secretary has repeatedly called for the protection of civilians and for unfettered humanitarian access to those in need.
On the subject of further isolating the Gaddafi regime, the European Council also made some progress. Two weeks ago, we put in place a tough United Nations Security Council resolution and agreed in record time asset freezes, travel bans and an arms embargo, as well as referral to the International Criminal Court. At this European Council, all leaders were united, categorical and crystal clear that Gaddafi must “relinquish power immediately.” We widened the restrictive measures against individuals close to Gaddafi and strengthened the financial sanctions on the regime, adding the Libyan Central Bank and the Libyan Investment Authority to the EU asset-freezing list. In doing so, the UK has increased the total of frozen Libyan assets in this country from £2 billion to £12 billion. We now need to make clear the next measures in terms of putting further pressure on the regime and planning for what other steps may be necessary.
Two weeks ago, I told the House that I believed contingency planning should be done, including plans for a military no-fly zone. NATO is carrying out that work. As we have said before, a no-fly zone would need international support based on three clear conditions: demonstrable need, regional support and a clear legal basis. In recent days, first the Gulf Co-operation Council and now the Arab League have called for a no-fly zone. In terms of the European Council, of course, the EU is not a military alliance and there is always a hesitation about discussing military options, but the Council expressed its
“deep concern about attacks against civilians, including from the air”
and agreed that all member states should examine “all necessary options” for protecting the civilian population, provided there was a demonstrable need, a clear legal basis and support from the region. That was some progress, especially compared with where Europe was in advance of Friday’s Council, but we need to continue to win the argument for a strong response in the international community—Europe included. Along with others in the United Nations Security Council, the UK is following up urgently the lead given by the Arab League by drafting a resolution that sets out the next measures that need to be taken, including the option of a no-fly zone. Included in the resolution, in our view, should be much tougher measures against mercenaries and the states from which they come, as well as against others who are attempting to breach the sanctions and assist Gaddafi.
Every day, Gaddafi is brutalising his own people. Time is of the essence and there should be no let-up in the pressure we put on this regime. I am clear where the British national interest lies. It is in our interest to see the growth of open societies and the building blocks of democracy in north Africa and the middle east. When it comes to Libya, we should be clear about what is happening. We have seen the uprising of a people against a brutal dictator and it will send a dreadful signal if their legitimate aspirations are crushed, not least to others striving for democracy across the region. To those who say it is nothing to do with us, I would simply respond, “Do we want a situation where a failed pariah state festers on Europe’s southern border, potentially threatening our security, pushing people across the Mediterranean and creating a more dangerous and uncertain world for Britain and for all our allies as well as for the people of Libya?” Of course we do not want that, and that is why Britain is and will remain at the forefront of the response to this crisis. I commend this statement to the House.
Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab)
May I start by associating myself with the Prime Minister’s remarks about the Japanese earthquake and tsunami? The tragedy that has hit that country is of almost unimaginable horror and scale, as all of us will have felt after seeing the pictures on our television screens over the weekend. We fully support the Government in their efforts to help the Government of Japan in their hour of need and, indeed, to help Japan’s people.
This is clearly an anxious time for the friends and family of UK nationals and I thank the Prime Minister for what he said about our consular activity. I am sure that consular staff will be working around the clock to deal with the inquiries that they receive. Let me also associate myself with the Prime Minister’s remarks about the work of British search and rescue teams.
On nuclear power, we should clearly see if there are lessons to be learned, but should avoid a rush to judgment given that we have a good safety record in this country. It is important not to lose sight of that.
Turning to the European Council, I want to focus on three issues: the military options available to the international community regarding Libya, the wider response to the Libyan crisis and the need to re-energise the middle east peace process. Let me take each issue in turn.
First, I welcome the clear and unequivocal statement in the Council declaration that the Libyan regime should relinquish power immediately. As the Prime Minister made clear in his statement, the situation in Libya is grave and pressing. I said, when the Prime Minister first publicly floated the idea of a no-fly zone two weeks ago, that we welcomed the possibility. It is disappointing that Friday’s communiqué did not mention it, although it is, as he has said, encouraging that the Arab League has expressed support for it. In view of the gravity and urgency of the situation, and to win greater support for the idea, it seems to us that the priority must be to translate the no-fly zone phrase into a practical plan. To that end, may I ask what progress has been made since he asked the Ministry of Defence to draw up such a plan two weeks ago? Specifically, was such a plan presented by the UK at the NATO Defence Ministers meeting last Thursday or by him at the European Council?
On the European Council, may I ask whether the ambivalence among our EU partners is based on opposition to a no-fly zone in principle or is because of practical doubts about the workability of such a proposal? Can he give us a clearer picture, because that is necessary to win broader support, of what he believes the no-fly zone would involve and, furthermore, whether it is contingent on the US Government’s participation, given that some parts of the Administration have expressed reservations about the idea?
On timing, I note that the Prime Minister repeated his statement of last week that the UK is now working on a new Security Council resolution, which I welcome. Given the urgency of the situation, to which he rightly drew attention, what is his best judgment about when such a resolution will be tabled? Above all, may I emphasise to him the importance of matching what is said in public with the diplomatic spadework needed to win international support for a practical and legal plan?
I have one more question on the military options that are available. Given the position expressed this morning by the former Foreign Secretary, the right hon. and learned Member for Kensington (Sir Malcolm Rifkind), on providing arms to some of the rebels against Colonel Gaddafi, what is the Government’s position on the legality and wisdom of that idea?
Secondly, let me turn to the other actions that we can take. I welcome what the Prime Minister said about asset freezes and sanctions. May I make a further suggestion? To maximise pressure on the regime, have the Government made any formal communication to the International Criminal Court to impress on Libyan leaders and commanders the importance of individual accountability for the commissioning and carrying out of crimes against humanity? If he has not done so—and I believe that it is open to individual countries to do this—may I suggest that he looks into the UK Government doing so?
On the humanitarian crisis, to which the Prime Minister referred, may I ask him whether the Department for International Development is planning to provide additional support to other multilateral organisations such as the World Food Programme and the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees?
Thirdly and finally, may I discuss briefly the middle east peace process? He and I both had the chance last week to meet President Abbas during his visit to London. May I reiterate to the Prime Minister something with which I know he agrees—the central importance of not losing sight of that issue as other, more immediate crises face us. Will the Prime Minister therefore tell us what discussions took place at the European Council about how the EU can help to get the peace process back on track? In particular, what representations have been made to the United States following its recent veto of the UN resolution on settlements?
Finally, let me tell the Prime Minister that he and I are united in the view that this must be a moment when the European Union and the international community show they are more than the sum of their parts, whether it is on Libya specifically, north Africa or the middle east peace process. I hope that he and other leaders will do all they can over the coming days and weeks to put in the hard work and diplomacy that can make that happen.
The Prime Minister
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his questions, and I particularly welcome what he said about Japan and the common ground there. On nuclear, he is absolutely right that we should not rush to judgment, but we should, as we have done, ask our experts where there are lessons to learn.
The right hon. Gentleman asked a range of questions about Libya, and let me try to take all of them. On the issue of no-fly zones, he said what support the Arab League had given, but the Secretary-General of the Arab League said very clearly:
“It is for the Security Council to take decisions as it sees fit. What we did in the Arab League is make an official request to impose a no-fly zone on military activities against the Libyan people.”
I think that that is a significant step forward. The right hon. Gentleman asked what work has been done. Obviously, work has been done in the UK to look at options on how that could be done but, crucially, the work is now being done in NATO, which is right. He asked a question about what it would involve. I am afraid that the answer is that that would depend on exactly how large the no-fly zone was, whether it was operating round the clock, which parts of the country it covered and so forth. However, it is perfectly practical and deliverable. Obviously, if it were to happen, if it is judged to have passed the milestones that we have set, it would be best if it were as widely supported as possible. It is something that no one country can do alone.
The right hon. Gentleman asked why some EU countries were more sceptical than others, and why they opposed the proposal. As he knows, 21 of the 27 are members of the NATO, which made it clear that this should be looked at. Many in Europe, as elsewhere, have made it clear that we must make sure that we learn lessons from Iraq. My argument is that no two situations are the same. We can listen to any number of experts who will warn about what happened in different places in different times, but what we are seeing in Libya is different. It is an uprising of a people against a leader, and it is quite different. No one is talking about invasions, boots on the ground and the rest of it. When a resolution should be put forward will depend on the support that can be guaranteed for such a resolution in the UN, but what has happened with the Arab League and the Gulf Co-operation Council is very encouraging.
On the question raised by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kensington (Sir Malcolm Rifkind), the former Foreign Secretary, about arming the rebels, I repeat what the Foreign Secretary said this morning. We should not exclude various possibilities, and there is an argument to be made, but there are important legal, practical and other issues that would have to be resolved, including the UN arms embargo. We should also be clear that there is no single answer to speeding up the process of removing Gaddafi. That is why we should urgently be pursuing a broad range of options through the UN.
On the other actions that the right hon. Gentleman mentioned—the International Criminal Court—I will certainly look at the idea of contacting the court directly. It seems most important to me that we make the point publicly over and over again to all those people around Gaddafi, working for Gaddafi, and in his army, that they are being watched by the International Criminal Court. That is a message that we should do everything we can to get across.
DFID has responded very quickly, both bilaterally and multilaterally. We should be proud of the fact that it was Britain which flew so many Egyptians on the Tunisian border back to Egypt and helped many hundreds of Bangladeshis as well.
On the point that the right hon. Gentleman makes about the middle east peace process, that was discussed by the EU Council. We have made strong representations to other EU countries and also to the US that we must get that back on track. As the right hon. Gentleman said, both of us met the Palestinian President when he came to London recently. I was struck by something that one of his advisers said—that if we really want great progress and victory in combating terrorism and Islamic extremism, growth of democracy in the middle east, plus a solution to the Palestine-Israel conflict, would be the two things that could bring that victory together.
Sir Malcolm Rifkind (Kensington) (Con)
Does the Prime Minister agree that the Gaddafi regime has already internationalised the conflict in Libya by bringing in many hundreds of mercenaries, which is helping to put pressure on the insurgents? Against that background, is it not imperative that the international community should be able to provide military supplies to the insurgents? Of course, we must recognise the legality of the arms embargo, but does the Prime Minister agree also that the terms of the arms embargo resolution prevent arms from being supplied to what is called the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya—in other words, to the Gaddafi regime—and that it is perfectly possible to supply arms or other equipment to those who are fighting that regime, especially as the resolution itself, through the appointment of a sanctions committee, allows that sanctions committee to provide arms sales to other groups in Libya if it thinks that appropriate?
The Prime Minister
My right hon. and learned Friend made a strong and persuasive argument in his newspaper article this morning. I make three points. First, on the issue of mercenaries, what is happening is unacceptable. We should be sending the clearest possible message to those in Mali, Chad and elsewhere who are thinking of volunteering as mercenaries, and we should put into the next UN resolution the strongest possible language about mercenaries. Secondly, the same should apply to policing the arms embargo against the Gaddafi regime, because there are signs that he is seeking additional armaments right now. Thirdly, I hear clearly the argument —it is an ingenious argument that only a lawyer of my right hon. and learned Friend’s brilliance could make—about the specific way the arms embargo was termed towards the country that Gaddafi effectively renamed, but I am not sure it is an opinion that is shared by all other lawyers.
Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab)
I was going to ask the Prime Minister about the nature of the duties on the Security Council. Five years ago, a high level working group established by the then Secretary-General, Kofi Annan, recommended that the responsibilities—the duties—of the Security Council should be broadened from protecting international peace and security to a “responsibility to protect” populations from internal humanitarian disaster, even where that did not directly pose a threat across the borders of those countries. Does the Prime Minister agree that as well as the commendable action that the British Government are taking to push the international community to deal with the immediate problem of Libya, we need to use this terrible example to press our partners internationally to broaden the remit of the Security Council so that we never get another Bosnia or Rwanda or, maybe tragically, another Libya?
The Prime Minister
The right hon. Gentleman has considerable expertise on this issue. The responsibility to protect has been pushed forward and debated, and I remember asking questions in opposition, at the time of problems in Burma and elsewhere, on whether it should be invoked. What the lawyers will advise, quite rightly, is that things have moved on and changed since Bosnia. It seems to me that one of the things we are trying to do here is learn the lessons of Iraq and the lessons of Bosnia, where the international community was neither fast enough, nor indeed decisive enough in responding.
Richard Ottaway (Croydon South) (Con)
I very much agree with the Prime Minister’s proposals to make the countries of the middle east bigger and more open societies, but those of us with reservations about the no-fly zone are concerned about where it will lead. Given that the last two no-fly zones, in Bosnia and Iraq, both needed troops on the ground to follow behind them, what does he envisage will happen if a no-fly zone is unsuccessful and Gaddafi remains in place?
The Prime Minister
Obviously, a lot has been written and said about this issue, and I totally understand the argument, but if we face a situation where there is a real danger of Gaddafi continuing to inflict devastation on his people, and if the conditions set out have been met, which are that there is a demonstrable need, regional support and a clear legal basis, it seems to me that this is the right sort of step to consider. Of course, it is not a solution to the problem, but I believe that it would have an effect on the ground. It might not be a decisive effect, but I think that there are strong arguments for taking steps that further put pressure on Gaddafi, and I think that this is a step that we should consider. We have already taken a number of diplomatic and sanction steps. I think that this is an additional step that could make a difference.
Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op)
The Prime Minister referred to learning the lessons from Iraq. He also said that time is of the essence. Does he agree that John Major, as Prime Minister, was right to introduce a no-fly zone to protect the Kurds and that, as a result, for 12 years Saddam was unable to attack them even though he remained in power in Baghdad? Is there not an argument today for the international community, either collectively or only some of them, to protect the people of Benghazi?
The Prime Minister
The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. I think that John Major was right, and I discussed this specific case with him over the past few days to make sure that we learn the lessons from that. That also relates to the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South (Richard Ottaway). The point is this: we cannot do everything, but that does not mean that we should not do anything. That is the key, and we have to work out where to draw the line. I am very clear that a no-fly zone is something that we should consider, because it may help to stop atrocities being committed against people who want a more democratic future.
Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD)
May I associate all my party colleagues with the condolences and sympathy expressed by the Prime Minister for the people of Japan and with the support expressed for all those coming to their aid?
On Libya, in addition to the sense of urgency that the Prime Minister has expressed on the no-fly zone, is he willing to pursue, as the crisis group in Brussels has recommended, a possible initiative for a ceasefire on the ground in Libya so that a post-Gaddafi representative and an appropriate regime could be discussed as urgently as possible, as well as military action taken elsewhere?
The Prime Minister
We will of course listen and respond to all suggestions. It seems to me that the first thing that needs to happen is for Gaddafi to cease what he is doing and go. That is the only way Libya can have a secure future and that is what needs to happen. We should be asking ourselves, with our allies, the Arab League and the Gulf Co-operation Council, what more we can do to tighten the noose around Gaddafi and turn up the pressure to ensure that he feels it as strongly as possible.
Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central) (Lab)
The Prime Minister is right that the logic of a no-fly zone is to prevent aggression by Gaddafi against innocent people in Benghazi or elsewhere. Is that not exactly the same logic, though, of providing arms to those in opposition to Gaddafi—that it gives them the capacity to defend themselves against such aggression? What assessment does the Prime Minister make of the urgency with which the international community will now deal with the legal issue?
The Prime Minister
First, to deal with the issue of urgency, there is a range of opinions on what is happening on the ground in Libya, but it does seem as if the rebels have had some serious setbacks, so time could be relatively short. The international community, therefore, needs to step up and quicken the pace of its response along the lines of some of the things that we have been suggesting.
In terms of whether a no-fly zone is better than other options, I think we should pursue a range of options. I put a no-fly zone on the table early on, because it takes planning and time to prepare for such a contingency. As I said in relation to arming the rebels, and as the Foreign Secretary said, we should not rule things out, but there is a range of practical and legal difficulties, so the steps that we are pushing for at the UN, which involve not just a no-fly zone, but a range of other, diplomatic steps and pressures, including what I have said about mercenaries, are the right approach.
Nicholas Soames (Mid Sussex) (Con)
I welcome the Prime Minister’s analysis, and his tying down of the conditions to proceed, but does he nevertheless agree that, welcome though the Arab League’s support is, there will be a requirement on it to provide some of its considerable air assets for a no-fly zone if the project is to have the wholehearted capability that it should?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend makes an extremely important point. Everyone will have seen the words of the Arab League and of the Gulf Co-operation Council, which are welcome, and it is—to some—an unexpected step that they are being so forthright in asking for a no-fly zone, but my hon. Friend is absolutely right: were that to happen, it should go ahead on the basis of the broadest amount of international support and participation, and crucially that should include participation by Arab states themselves, which do have the assets to bring to bear.
Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP)
First and foremost, our thoughts are with the people of Japan at this terrible time, and whatever our own views on nuclear power we fervently hope that their engineers are able to bring under control the situation at Fukushima.
The Prime Minister made some perfectly valid points about the differences between the UK and Japan, but the fact remains that their reactors are specifically designed for Japanese, known seismic risk. Should that not give us pause for thought about our own nuclear plans?
The Prime Minister
We have an excellent nuclear safety record in this country, but we should never be complacent. When any nuclear incident happens anywhere else in the world, we should immediately examine it and ask ourselves, “Does this have any implications for what we do in the UK?” There are some important scientific points to take into account, including the different reactors and seismic conditions that we have here, but nevertheless we will make sure that the gentleman I mentioned in my statement does the work properly.
Mr Roger Gale (North Thanet) (Con)
My right hon. Friend has commendably promoted action rather than words. In remembering the lessons of Iraq, should we not remember also the lessons of Budapest in 1956 and the Prague spring? Is it not a fact that, when the western free world fails to act, defining moments are lost and tyrants survive?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend speaks with great passion about these issues. The point I would make about the lessons of Iraq, which a lot of people mention, is that no one here is talking about, and the Libyan opposition are not asking for, ground troops, invasions or anything like that; they are asking for a no-fly zone. But I think there is a lesson from Iraq, and it is this: if you talk to a lot of people in the Gulf, they will say, “If you don’t actually show your support for the Libyan people and for democracy at this time, in a way you’re saying you will intervene when it is only about your security, but you won’t help when it is about our democracy,” We need to bear that in mind in drawing the lessons, as people say, from Iraq.
Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)
Was there any discussion at the European Council about the desirability of EU nations now recognising the opposition as a legitimate power in Libya?
The Prime Minister
There was a discussion about that, and the Council’s conclusions talk about the Benghazi council being a legitimate political interlocutor, which is important. The French have obviously formally recognised that organisation. As for Britain’s position, as I am sure the hon. Gentleman knows, we recognise countries rather than Governments, but we want a dialogue and to have contact with the Libyan opposition, so we will be going ahead with that. We do, however, have a different legal position of recognising countries, not Governments.
Sir Peter Tapsell (Louth and Horncastle) (Con)
Do President Obama and Chancellor Merkel support the idea of an intervention in another Islamic state?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend, who speaks with great passion about these things, puts it in a very particular way. I have spoken with President Obama; he said, very clearly, that he wants Gaddafi to go. Chancellor Merkel signed up to a European Council statement that Gaddafi should go. When we are talking about intervention here, we are talking about the world coming together, having tough UN sanctions, putting in place a resolution, turning up the pressure, and looking at possibilities like a no-fly zone that could help to protect the Libyan people. As I said in my statement, it is not in our interests that we end up with Gaddafi still in power, in charge of what will become a pariah rogue state on the borders of Europe causing huge amounts of difficulty for everyone else. This is in our interests; it is not some great adventure that is being planned, if I may reassure my hon. Friend.
Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)
The United Nations Security Council is the right way to pursue this matter. Was there any explanation at the European Council meeting of the bombs, the torpedoes, the rockets and the missiles that have been sold to the Libyan regime by France, Italy and Germany—that is apart from what we have been selling up until the past few weeks? What on earth did the Governments believe those arms would be used against?
The Prime Minister
The hon. Gentleman is extremely consistent in his line of questioning about this issue, and he is right to raise these questions. I think that all Governments and all countries are going to have to ask themselves some quite searching questions about things that were sold and training that was given, and all the rest of it, and I will make sure that those questions are asked and answered here. But to be fair to the last Government, I can understand absolutely why relations were formed with Gaddafi after he gave up the weapons of mass destruction, although tragically not all of them have been destroyed or disposed of. The question is whether we then went into a relationship that was too blind and unthinking, and there are some serious questions to ask about that.
Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)
I really think that my right hon. Friend deserves congratulations on the fact that a fortnight ago he was virtually a lone voice in floating the idea of a no-fly zone, and now he has the support of the Arab League and France. What exactly went on at the European Council? Whom was Baroness Ashton speaking for? What mandate does she have to give her opinions? Should she not serve the member states of the European Union rather than pretending to lead them?
The Prime Minister
I thank my hon. Friend for his kind remarks, and the temptation to be pulled down a particular path about Baroness Ashton, who I think does a good job. The point that I would make is this: what happened on Friday, I think, is that there was a rogue briefing by one of her spokespeople that she was extremely embarrassed about and, to be fair to her, did everything she possibly could to try to put right. But as the old saying goes, a lie is halfway round the world before the truth has got its boots on.
Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)
In several questions the Prime Minister has reinforced the point he made in his statement that much tougher measures should be taken against mercenaries and states from which they come. What sort of measures is he thinking of?
The Prime Minister
There is now an arms embargo that should be policed. As many hon. Members will know, sometimes the problem with UN resolutions is that we pass the resolution but we do not necessarily put in place the machinery to follow it up properly. There is more that can be done through the UN on mercenaries, but there is also more that can be done on a bilateral basis whereby countries such as Britain, and perhaps particularly France, because of its relations with some of these countries, can make it absolutely clear how unacceptable it is to supply mercenaries. The message should go out to all those thinking about it that the world is watching, the International Criminal Court is watching, and that if you take part in war crimes, wherever you are, you can still be caught and punished.
Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD)
Does the Prime Minister share my concern at the arrival of Saudi troops in Bahrain following the protests demanding democratic reforms, which have already been met by tear gas and rubber bullets? Does he agree that those desiring democracy in Bahrain should have as much right to peaceful protest as those in Tunisia, Egypt and Libya, regardless of whether Saudi Arabia approves?
The Prime Minister
Of course, everyone should have the right to peaceful protest. In Bahrain, the King and the Crown Prince have been making efforts to try to have movement towards a more open and democratic society. Of course people will have debates about whether they are going far enough or fast enough, but they have made that effort. Bahrain obviously has the difficulty of quite a severe divide between some Sunni and Shi’a, which can make the situation more difficult, but I hope that they keep going down that path of reform, and not repression, which is the right track for these countries to take.
Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab)
Will the right hon. Gentleman join me in condemning utterly the barbaric slaughter inflicted on the Fogel family in a west bank settlement over the weekend? Does he agree that no response to that savagery could be more futile than the building of further settlements, and that the only way to stop this useless slaughter of innocent people—both Jews and Palestinians—is for Israel to sit down and talk?
The Prime Minister
The right hon. Gentleman is entirely right. Like others, I read about that case over the weekend and found what happened extremely disturbing. Anyone who has been to Jerusalem and seen the settlement building, particularly around east Jerusalem, can understand why the Palestinians feel so strongly about building on their land. There is a danger of the two-state solution being built away if we are not careful. That is why this Government have always taken a strong view about the settlements.
Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)
Is not one of the lessons of Afghanistan that arming insurgents against a regime that we do not like can have incalculable consequences? Is not the problem with the proposal to do so, and with a no-fly zone, that we could end up with a prolonged civil war in which there would be mounting moral pressure for us to send in ground troops? Will the Prime Minister reassure the British people categorically that there is no question of our being dragged into another war of attrition in the middle east?
The Prime Minister
Let me try to reassure my hon. Friend, and through him people who are concerned about this matter. There is no intention to get involved in another war or to see an invasion or massive amounts of ground troops. That is not what is being looked at. What is being looked at is how we can tighten the pressure on an unacceptable, illegitimate regime to give that country some chance of peaceful transition. We would let down ourselves and the Libyan people if we did nothing and said that it was all too difficult. My hon. Friend’s point about Afghanistan is a good one, but I would argue that the real lesson is that the mistake of the west was to forget about Afghanistan and take its eyes off that country, rather than building and investing there when it was making progress. Instead we left it alone, and we have since suffered the consequences.
Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)
Was there any discussion at the European Council about the situation in Yemen? The Prime Minister will know that the situation has deteriorated badly, with violence spreading to many cities. It is surely not in anyone’s interests, apart from al-Qaeda, for Yemen to drift into civil war. What can we do to help the Yemeni Government to stabilise the situation, but to continue with the reforms?
The Prime Minister
We did discuss the wider region. The country that is probably of the most concern at the moment is Yemen, which the right hon. Gentleman often raises in this House. Again, it is clearly in our interests that the Yemeni Government respond with reform rather than repression. Yemen is a particularly special case because of the great presence of al-Qaeda and our need to encourage its Government to take on the terrorism in their country. The situation is obviously extremely difficult and we keep it under permanent review, not least to ensure that we keep safe the British citizens who are there.
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
Does the Prime Minister think there is a danger that by the time the international community agrees to a no-fly zone, there will be no purpose for one?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend makes a good point—the clock is ticking. There is a strong case for saying that time could get very short. I am not arguing, and do not think that anyone should argue, that a no-fly zone is the silver bullet that will solve the whole problem. It is just one of the many options that we should look at to increase pressure on the regime and to help people on the ground. I raised it two weeks ago because a lot of contingency planning is needed. I hope that that planning can now be sped up. That is why we are pushing for it, including through the UN. Clearly, we have to make and win some arguments on the UN Security Council, where some will be very sceptical about the idea.
Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)
Will the Prime Minister explain exactly what are his principles on condemnation and potential military intervention? He has described his views on Libya. What is his view on the Saudi forces who are firing on protesters on the streets of Saudi Arabia, who have travelled over the border into Yemen in the past, and who today are occupying parts of Bahrain in support of the Bahraini Government against their own protesters? Where is the condemnation of Saudi Arabia for its human rights abuses and for its arrogance in its treatment of dissidents?
The Prime Minister
I do not believe that the Government are being inconsistent. We have said throughout this that the response of Governments to aspirations for greater freedom and democracy—what we call the building blocks of democracy—should be reform and not repression. That applies right across the region. What is special about Libya right now is that, as I have said, there is an uprising of people against a brutal dictator who is brutalising the people. In the international community, we should be asking ourselves, “What can we do?” We do not have a perfect answer, because there are red lines that we are not prepared to cross, but in my view that is not an argument for doing nothing.
Rory Stewart (Penrith and The Border) (Con)
While welcoming the consensus on both sides of the House that we need a coalition and cannot freelance this, may I ask the Prime Minister what steps are being taken to bring Brazil, India, South Africa and other new members of the Security Council on side with the no-fly zone?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend asks an extremely good question. Those discussions are actually ongoing, and the UN Security Council is meeting as we speak. I think that those who have been sceptical about needing to take further action will be struck by what the Arab League and the Gulf Co-operation Council have said, and by what the Libyan opposition themselves have said. If we were having this argument and the Arab League was saying, “No, stay out, don’t help”, that would be a different situation, but that is not the case. I hope that the Brazilians and others will look at what the Arab League is saying and say, “Actually, this is a different situation and we need to give our support.”
Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab)
I know that the Prime Minister recognises the fact that the no-fly zone is not an easy option. In light of that, will he promise the House that if Britain decides to join in the imposition of a no-fly zone, the matter will be debated and voted on in the House?
The Prime Minister
I made a statement two weeks ago and I am making a statement today. We will have a further debate later this week, and I want the House of Commons to be regularly updated and to have every opportunity to discuss, debate and, if it wants, vote on the matter. I do not think we are there yet, but we now have the excellent Backbench Business Committee, which can arrange for days of debate and substantive motions, so if the Government are not fast enough for the hon. Lady, there are other options.
Mr Julian Brazier (Canterbury) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that a solution can be found before time runs out only if it has an Arab face on it? Does he agree that the two ways in which it can have that are, first, if weapons and ammunition are fairly rapidly allowed to reach the rebels, who face an extremely well-armed enemy, and secondly, as my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Sussex (Nicholas Soames) suggested, if the Egyptian and Saudi air forces are brought very much into the frame for any possible no-fly zone?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend speaks with great expertise about these matters. There is an Arab face on this already because of what the Arab League and the Gulf Co-operation Council have said, and that makes a big difference. When we speak to Arab leaders in the Gulf, they are very clear—unanimous, even—that Gaddafi has to go, the regime cannot continue, it is not legitimate and the situation is bad for the region. I think there would be support were a no-fly zone to happen—not only verbal support but, I hope, military support as well.
I cannot be specific about the two countries that my hon. Friend mentions. Obviously Egypt has all sorts of challenges in front of it at the moment, but I have had personal strong support from other Gulf leaders on this issue.
Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab)
The fact that arms that could have been sold by this country and many other western countries are being used against the people fighting for freedom in Libya highlights the unacceptable nature of the arms trade. Were there any discussions at the European Union about the possibility of international agreement about who we should deal with regarding arms in the future, to prevent such circumstances from coming about?
The Prime Minister
There was not that discussion at the European Council on Friday, because we were really talking about the two issues of the immediate situation in Libya and the neighbourhood policy that Europe should have towards north Africa and countries that are yearning for democracy.
The hon. Gentleman is right to say that we have to consider such issues closely. I do not believe that the arms trade is always and everywhere a bad thing, because small countries have a right to defend themselves. A responsible trade, properly regulated, is acceptable, but although we have some of the toughest rules, we have to ask ourselves, “Are they working, and how can we improve on them?”
Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con)
The Prime Minister will understand if I tell him that I was a little troubled to hear him say that we would police the arms embargo. Should we not use political will rather than legal ingenuity to ensure that arms go to help those who are resisting that dreadful tyrant?
The Prime Minister
As I have said in answer to several hon. Members, we do not rule those things out. We will look closely at the arguments, but clearly, when a UN arms embargo is in place, there are legal and practical problems with going down a different track. We should focus on the pressures that we can put on the Gaddafi regime. We should not rule out other possibilities —we can discuss those with allies—but they are not immediately on the table.
Mark Hendrick (Preston) (Lab/Co-op)
Further to the question from the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone), has the Prime Minister assessed—or is he aware of any such assessment—how soon a no-fly zone must be implemented for it not only to save civilians on the ground, but to change the course of events there?
The Prime Minister
That is a very good question. The point is that a no-fly zone may not make a decisive military difference, but it could make a difference. Clearly, the sooner it is put in place, the more difference it could make. However, the British Government are extremely clear that the three conditions must be in place—there must be a legal basis, regional support and a demonstrable need. Clearly, if those three conditions are met and if international partners want to go ahead, the sooner the better, because the effect, which people can debate, will be that much the greater.
Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con)
May I offer the Prime Minister my full support and congratulate him on his leadership? What more can be done by the international community, preferably through Arab countries, to ensure that Libyan opposition forces deliver a self-help no-fly zone by the provision of, and the giving of access to, their own portable, shoulder-launched surface-to-air missiles? That would provide a Libyan solution to what is primarily a Libyan problem, in addition to any future UN no-fly zone.
The Prime Minister
Clearly, while some of the military has remained loyal to Gaddafi, a lot of the military supports the rebels. Both sides in the conflict have a number of armaments, as my hon. Friend will have seen from the evidence. There are problems with arming the rebels. I mentioned the legal situation in respect of the arms embargo, but there are practical problems and questions about how quickly arming rebels would lead to any material effect. We can look at that, and we do not rule it out, but we should focus our efforts on the diplomatic efforts—the isolation of Libya—and on the contingency plans, such as a no-fly zone.
Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab)
I thank the Prime Minister for his comments on settlement building, but what are the Government doing to assist the people of Egypt? Egypt is still a military-run state. We should not sell it arms, but assist it to build civil society, political parties and the rule of law. How can the Government assist in those aims?
The Prime Minister
We are assisting the Egyptian people at this time—we hope—of transition. When I went to Cairo, I met Field Marshal Tantawi, the interim leader of that country. While we obviously want to see civilian democratic rule, and while there is at least the chance of a transition, which we are doing everything we can to help, one should not be too unfair about the Egyptian military’s role in ensuring that Mubarak left office. I have spoken to the new Prime Minister in Egypt. Our embassy, which is very well staffed and organised, is arranging a number of political contacts to ensure that we do everything to help that country with its growth towards democracy.
Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD)
Regional support has now been given, and the need is demonstrated. Five years ago, Heads of State at the UN General Assembly agreed that they
“are prepared to take collective action, in a timely and decisive manner, through the Security Council…should…national authorities manifestly fail to protect their populations.”
Is it not time that the Security Council acted collectively to protect the people of Libya?
The Prime Minister
The hon. Gentleman puts his point very strongly. We hope that the Security Council takes such action. There is now a discussion in the Security Council, and clearly, we must make the arguments as best we can. We can make points about the conditions that must be fulfilled before a no-fly zone comes into operation, but we should put forward other proposals, such as sanctions, asset bans and all the rest of it, that can add to pressure on the regime. We should not see one thing as a silver bullet, because there is no silver bullet—it is about ramping up the pressure.
Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op)
There are many dimensions to the tragedy in Japan, but on the lessons to be learned for emergency planning, surely one of the issues that is starting to become clear in terms of nuclear facilities is the inability of back-up systems adequately to pump around coolant when the primary systems fail. Will the Prime Minister ensure that the Health and Safety Executive properly stress tests our current and planned nuclear facilities?
The Prime Minister
The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. I am sure that the head of the nuclear inspectorate, who is doing this report for us, will look at this issue. As I understand it, it was a legitimate issue in Japan, where the combination of the earthquake and the tsunami meant that the systems were so severely tested. We have to stress test all our arrangements—although obviously in different circumstances on the ground—as toughly as we can.
Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)
Will my right hon. Friend confirm that the Government intend that sooner or later Gaddafi and those closest to him who are most responsible for attacks on civilians and crimes against humanity will be held to account by the International Criminal Court?
The Prime Minister
Yes, I can certainly make that point. It is a very strong point. We talk about pressurising the regime, but we also want to isolate it. Anyone around or thinking of supporting Gaddafi should be thinking about the long arm of the law, its long reach and its long memory, and I think that the International Criminal Court is very helpful in that regard.
Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab)
Learning from previous no-fly zones, will the Prime Minister confirm that with hindsight it was wrong in Bosnia to have insisted on an equality of sanctions and to have put in place rules of engagement that were not specific enough about helicopters and trade planes?
The Prime Minister
The hon. Lady makes a point. There are many lessons to learn from all stages of the conflict in the former Yugoslavia, perhaps Bosnia in particular. One can make all sorts of arguments about whether the arms embargo should have been lifted, or whether there should have been tougher action earlier against the Serbs, but the most important lesson was that the international community has to be engaged and decisive at an earlier stage. That is the lesson that we should learn.
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con)
In welcoming my right hon. Friend’s stance in leading the international community in taking difficult decisions against Gaddafi, will he remind it that Gaddafi has form? He launched a brutal military takeover in 1968 and became the leader of a pariah state that tried to acquire nuclear weapons in the 1970s and 1980s. Is it not imperative that the international community takes action now?
The Prime Minister
This is an important point for people who are traditionally sceptical about these sorts of measures. We should consider what life could be like with a Gaddafi in charge of a pariah Libyan state, with all the oil money it would have and all the ability it would have to wreak havoc internationally. We know what this man is capable of, because we have seen it in the past with Lockerbie and all the other problems, not least his funding of the IRA.
Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op)
On the one hand, the Prime Minister has been urged to take action as soon as possible, because of the urgency of the situation; on the other, he has been asked to follow the UN track. He has indicated that the Arab League and, as far as we can judge, internal opinion in Libya support a no-fly zone. Will he recommit himself to ensuring that we get the legitimacy of a UN Security Council resolution before action is taken?
The Prime Minister
Obviously, we want to have the widest possible international support. Also, we should not proceed without a proper legal basis. The hon. Gentleman mentions the Libyan opposition. They have made it absolutely clear in what they said that they want a no-fly zone and to have this sort of international support.
Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)
Does not the welcome support of the Arab League for a no-fly zone show that the Prime Minister was both forward thinking and right when he proposed it two weeks ago? Does not his stance on this issue contrast enormously with the Leader of the Opposition, who appears to have flip-flopped in a way reminiscent of his predecessor?
The Prime Minister
I thank my hon. Friend for what he says. The point I made two weeks ago was not that we should introduce a no-fly zone immediately, but that with such a situation we have to plan in advance for contingencies that may become necessary. I believe that the time is coming when it will be necessary for the international community to step forward and make this decision. However, I do not pretend for a minute that it is a one-shot wonder that will deal with the situation—it is not—but it could help.
Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)
Regarding the no-fly zone, the National Audit Office says we have just eight Typhoon pilots trained for ground attack. The lives of two Nimrods planned for early retirement have been extended. Will the Prime Minister look again at the decision to retire our Harrier fleet?
The Prime Minister
The aeroplane that is not being used at all in Afghanistan is the highly capable Typhoon, in which this country has invested an enormous amount of money and which is now proving to be an extremely good, well-performing aircraft. In our defence review we are thinking exactly about situations such as these, where we need highly flexible, well-trained armed forces, with investment in special forces, helicopters and transport planes such as the A400M. That is exactly the situation that we are envisaging.
Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con)
Having served in Operation Warden in the no-fly zone over northern Iraq in the 1990s, I echo the Prime Minister’s comments about how it is possible to have a successful no-fly zone without committing ground troops. What does he think of the suggestion made by one of my constituents—a member of the Stop the War Coalition who e-mailed this lunchtime—of using financial funds seized from the Gaddafi regime to buy arms for the rebels?
The Prime Minister
I did not know about my hon. Friend’s brave record in flying for the Air Force in a no-fly zone. He brings great personal expertise, so it is good to have his backing. The frozen resources belong to the Libyan people, and we should bear that in mind when we start thinking of different and ingenious ways of spending their money.
Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)
Should we not avoid a rush to complacency on nuclear safety? The pictures from Fukushima have already churned up people’s deep-seated fears of a nuclear catastrophe and reduced the acceptability of nuclear installations, which are uniquely dangerous in cases of human error, terrorist attack or natural disaster. Should we not look again at our rush to nuclear?
The Prime Minister
We have to put aside our personal preferences and prejudices about nuclear power and ask some tough scientific questions about what recent events demonstrate and what we should learn. There are big differences between Japan and Britain. We do not yet know the full extent of what has happened at the reactors, and, as the leader of the hon. Gentleman’s party said, we should not rush to judgment in considering these issues.
David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con)
I welcome the Prime Minister’s efforts to engage the international community in developing a robust response to the barbaric acts of Colonel Gaddafi. What steps are being taken to provide humanitarian aid to displaced people in Libya, especially in the increasingly isolated town of Misurata in the west?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend asks an important question. What we have done so far has focused on the Egyptian and Tunisian borders, where Britain has led the way in supplying tents and blankets and in flying people back home to Egypt, because we want to ensure that a bad humanitarian situation does not become a humanitarian crisis. His point about access to western Libya is vital. Humanitarian aid agencies do not have access to all areas; they absolutely should have, and the Libyan authorities should see to that straight away.
Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)
Leaving aside the juvenile and puerile crack from the hon. Member for North West Leicestershire (Andrew Bridgen), the Prime Minister will know that there is a cross-party consensus on the need for a no-fly zone. Given that time is of the essence, on how many occasions has he personally spoken to President Obama and on how many occasions has the Foreign Secretary spoken to Secretary of State Clinton?
The Prime Minister
The Foreign Secretary has probably lost count of the number of times he has spoken to Secretary of State Clinton—they seem to have an almost permanent telephone special relationship. I spoke to President Obama about the situation last week, and I have had a number of conversations with him about it. Crucially, now that we have a National Security Council and a National Security Adviser—which slightly mirrors the Americans’ arrangements—our teams have almost daily conversations, so we are totally up to date with each other’s thinking. We want the US to focus on what is happening in Libya and on what we need to do as an international community.
Mark Lancaster (Milton Keynes North) (Con)
In the light of recent events, has the time come to expand the stabilisation unit?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend makes a good point. There is now special stabilisation funding, which is under all sorts of pressure as there are so many unstable parts of the world. We looked at this in the defence review, but we should keep it under review.
Paul Uppal (Wolverhampton South West) (Con)
Is not the tragic situation in Japan made even more acute by the country’s demographic time bomb? Like many western European countries, Japan has an ageing population. It is in times of need that we find out what unites us rather than tears us apart, so will the Prime Minister assure me that in this darkest of hours Japan will see the full force of British friendship and generosity?
The Prime Minister
I can absolutely give my hon. Friend that assurance. I spoke to our ambassador at lunchtime today, and he said that the way in which we respond will be very important to the Japanese people. Japan and Britain have a very strong, close relationship, and we should do everything we can to say, “We are with you at this time of need, and we are going to give you aid and help.” Japan is an enormously capable country with fantastic technology and ingenious people, so if anyone can cope with the appalling things that have been visited on them, they can. There is also room for friends to help as well.
Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con)
Gaddafi winning would be the biggest nightmare for the Libyan people. Two weeks ago, the Prime Minister took the lead in calling for a no-fly zone, against the tide of public and media opinion. Now, however, the Arab League and the Gulf Co-operation Council have supported a no-fly zone. Considering the difficulties in Europe on Friday, if similar difficulties were to occur in the UN, would my right hon. Friend be prepared to lead a coalition of the willing to enforce a no-fly zone?
The Prime Minister
As I have said, the conditions for a no-fly zone must include the existence of regional support. Many hon. Members on both sides of the House have already made that point. There should also be a demonstrable need for it on the ground, and I think that that is becoming the case. There must also be a clear legal basis for it, and that is why we are pushing this matter at the UN and why we will, I hope, make persuasive arguments about why a new UN resolution should include lots of different measures and steps that we can take, including plans for a no-fly zone. I think that we should pursue that track.
Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)
I applaud the Prime Minister for the leadership he has shown during this crisis. May I draw his attention to the problems of getting support for a no-fly zone, and to the disgraceful use of mercenaries? Is this not the time to have a debate on broadening the scope of the United Nations’ capacity to act?
The Prime Minister
This has been a perennial debate about whether the UN should have more specific capacity to act. We can certainly have that debate. I would make the argument, which I also make about the European Union, that, in the end, all the institutions in the world depend on the political will of their members. What was required on Friday in Europe—and we got some of it—was the political will for Europe to respond to what is happening in its neighbourhood. The same applies to the UN, and I think that there is political will there. It is incredible that a Security Council resolution was passed so quickly, and we need to continue to show that political will so that we can ensure that Gaddafi fails.
Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)
In the light of the recent demands by the protesters in Bahrain for the monarchy to step down and for the setting up of an Islamic republic similar to that of Iran, has the Prime Minister made any assessment of Iran’s involvement in the events in Bahrain?
The Prime Minister
A number of people have speculated about that. From the information that I have, I would say that the Bahrainis have made efforts, not just recently but over the years, to make a stronger civil society and to put in place some of the building blocks of democracy. Of course there is an argument about whether they should go further and faster, and I would urge that they respond to what is happening now with further reform rather than with repression.
David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Con)
Will my right hon. Friend give a categorical assurance to the nuclear power industry in the United Kingdom? What has happened in Japan is catastrophic, but there are distinct differences between the nuclear power industry here and that of Japan.
The Prime Minister
The nuclear industry here in the UK has a strong safety record, but it must never be complacent, because the consequences of failure can be so dreadful. We have to be eternally vigilant. What has happened on the other side of the world following an earthquake and a tsunami might sound like something that we might not experience in the UK, but if there are lessons to learn about how reactors fail, whether they fail safe and all the rest of it, of course we should learn them.
Mary Macleod (Brentford and Isleworth) (Con)
I know that my right hon. Friend has visited Rwanda. During the genocide there, the UN retreated and the world stood by as thousands of lives were lost. Will he reassure me that we will continue to show leadership on the Libyan situation, so that many lives will not be lost in the same way again?
The Prime Minister
The Rwandan example is a powerful one, partly because of the immense scale of the barbarous murder that took place. Anyone visiting that country, especially the memorial built on top of the graves of literally hundreds of thousands of people, will see it as a standing warning of the fact that genocide can take place in our world, even today.
Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)
May I suggest a note of caution to my right hon. Friend about a no-fly zone? Our record of intervention in this region has not been good. Meanwhile, a no-fly zone could require Colonel Gaddafi’s forces to be attacked and poses the question of what happens if we fail.
The Prime Minister
Of course we have to show caution and forethought and we have to think through all the consequences of our action. As I have said, however, I think the consequences of inaction are going to be worse than taking the sort of steps that I have spoken about. Of course we must learn the lessons from other conflicts, but there is a real difference here: the Arab League, the Gulf Co-operation Council and the Libyan opposition are all saying, “Please will you help us in this one particular way?” Turning the Iraq example on its head, if we turned round and said, “No, there is no question of this at all”, opinion in the Arab world might well be, “You look after yourselves when it is about your perceived security, but when it is our future and our democracy, where are you when we need you?”
Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con)
Will the Prime Minister join me in paying tribute to fire and rescue service officers from West Sussex, based in my constituency, who are now in Japan helping with the relief effort after the earthquake and tsunami—and, indeed, to all the emergency workers from this country who so readily go out to disaster areas around the world, whether it be Haiti, New Zealand or wherever?
The Prime Minister
I certainly take great pleasure in praising people in the emergency services from my hon. Friend’s constituency and, indeed, from around the whole country who, at the drop of a hat, jump on an aeroplane and head off to New Zealand, Haiti or Japan and probably witness some appalling and truly harrowing scenes, which they then have to deal with. This is more than just a gesture from Britain to Japan, as these are some of the most highly trained people in our country and are great experts in what they do. I am sure they will make a real difference.
Oral Answers to Questions
Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton Excerpts(13 years, 2 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con)
Q1. If he will list his official engagements for Wednesday 2 March.
The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron)
I am sure the whole House will wish to join me in paying tribute to Private Dean Hutchinson from 9 Regiment the Royal Logistic Corps and Private Robert Wood from 17 Port and Maritime Regiment the Royal Logistic Corps. They were killed in a fire at Camp Bastion on Monday 14 February. Their service for the safety of the British people will not be forgotten and we send our deepest condolences to their families, friends and colleagues.
I am sure that the whole House will also wish to join me in sending our deepest sympathies to the people of New Zealand and to all those who lost loved ones, including, sadly, at least four British citizens, in the earthquake last week. We have sent two teams of experts to provide whatever assistance they can.
This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others, and in addition to my duties in the House I shall have further such meetings later today.
Gavin Barwell
I am sure that the whole House will, indeed, wish to associate itself with the Prime Minister’s remarks in relation both to our brave servicemen and to the people of New Zealand.
Despite the urgent need to reduce the deficit, the Government took the right decision not just to protect but to increase the overseas aid budget. What capacity does that give us to respond to the urgent humanitarian situation on the Libyan border?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend makes an important point, which is that in spite of the difficult decisions we have to take, it is right to keep increasing the aid budget. Sadly, what is happening on the Egyptian and Tunisian borders with Libya shows how important that decision is. As the UN Secretary-General, Ban Ki-moon, said last night, there are serious implications of a growing humanitarian crisis. The information is that some 162,000 people have crossed the land border so far. We have sent technical Department for International Development teams to both the borders and yesterday we flew in tents for 1,500 people and blankets for 36,000 people. I can tell the House that today we are launching a UK operation to airlift several thousand people back to Egypt from the Libyan-Tunisian border, with the first flight scheduled to leave the UK later today. It is vital to do this; those people should not be kept in transit camps if it is possible to take them back to their home. I am glad that Britain can play such an important part in doing that.
Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab)
May I join the Prime Minister in paying tribute to Private Dean Hutchinson from 9 Regiment the Royal Logistic Corps and Private Robert Wood from 17 Port and Maritime Regiment the Royal Logistic Corps? They both showed enormous heroism and courage in their service in Afghanistan and our thoughts are with their family and friends.
I also join the Prime Minister in passing on condolences and deepest sympathy to the victims of the New Zealand earthquake.
May I ask the Prime Minister about the situation in Libya, starting with the humanitarian crisis? I welcome the bilateral action being taken by the Government, including the steps that he has announced today and the visit of the International Development Secretary. May I ask what support the Prime Minister is also offering to multilateral organisations such as the World Food Programme and the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees in dealing with what is, as the Prime Minister says, a growing refugee emergency on the Libyan border?
The Prime Minister
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his question. In addition to the steps I announced about the airlift from the Tunisian border back to Egypt, there is also HMS York, which has now docked in Benghazi carrying a lot of medical and other supplies and will be able to help with the humanitarian mission. He asked specifically about helping the multilateral organisations. Obviously, we are in very close touch with them, particularly with OCHA—the United Nations Office for the Co-ordination of Humanitarian Affairs—and Valerie Amos. We are delighted that it is John Ging, whom many in the House will know from the UN and his excellent work in Palestine for UNRWA—the United Nations Relief and Works Agency—who will be co-ordinating that effort. We will remain in close contact with them as one of their lead partners and will do everything we can to help to co-ordinate this effort. We have the forward-basing of a lot of tents and other equipment in Dubai, which means that it is relatively close to the area. We will go on doing everything we can to ease the problems at the border and to make sure that this emergency does not turn into a crisis.
Edward Miliband
I thank the Prime Minister for that reply. I am sure he will keep the House updated. We both agreed on Monday that the international community must take all practical steps for a democratic outcome in Libya. On Monday, the Prime Minister floated the idea of a no-fly zone. On Tuesday, however, a number of foreign Governments distanced themselves from the idea. Can he clarify where that proposal now stands?
The Prime Minister
Our first priority as a country should, of course, be to evacuate our fellow countrymen from Libya. That process has gone well and there are very few who want to leave who are still in Libya. The second thing that we should do is put every available pressure on the Libyan regime. We have done that through travel bans, asset freezes and arms embargos, and we should keep on looking for other ways in which we can pressurise the regime.
We have just spoken about the humanitarian crisis, and the next steps that we must take to ease it. What I was saying on Monday and say again today is that I think it is the job of leaders in the western world in particular to prepare for all eventualities and all the things that might happen, particularly if Colonel Gaddafi unleashes more things on his own people. On those grounds, we should be and we are looking at plans for a no-fly zone. I was particularly heartened by what Secretary of State Clinton said—that a
“ no-fly zone is an option we are actively considering.”
These matters are being discussed in the North Atlantic Council this morning, and it is right that they are.
Edward Miliband
I emphasise to the Prime Minister, as I am sure he will agree, that there was a clear sense of unity in the international community over sanctions. Clearly, that is what we must strive for in any future decisions that we make. He will understand the concern in the country and the armed forces that after he spoke about the no-fly zone, the Government issued redundancy notices to thousands of Royal Air Force personnel. Can he reassure the House and the country that any increase in our military commitments that he is talking about, including in north Africa, can be met at a time when we are reducing capability?
The Prime Minister
I can give the right hon. Gentleman that assurance. Let me be clear. Of course, it is never easy to reduce the numbers in our armed forces, but this Government decided, quite rightly, to hold a strategic defence review because we had not had one for 12 years and we inherited a defence budget that was in a state of complete chaos. The background to the defence review is the enormous black hole in our nation’s finances, but the aim of the defence review is to make sure that we have flexible, well-equipped armed forces that are able to serve our national interests around the world. That is exactly what I believe they will be able to do.
Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) (Con)
Q2. After Romford hospital, next on the waiting list for private finance initiative surgery should be Portsmouth’s Queen Alexandra hospital. Does my right hon. Friend agree that massive annual repayments and restrictive procurement practices are preventing best care from being delivered, and that the contract should go under the knife and the savings given to Portsmouth’s health economy, not Treasury coffers?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend makes a good point, which is that next to the Ministry of Defence budget, the other shambles that we inherited was the PFI programme. The public sector is going to be spending about £8 billion on PFI contracts just this year, so we must examine all those contracts for savings. Let me give my hon. Friend a couple of examples of the nonsense that we inherited under those contracts—[Interruption.] Opposition Members may not want to hear it: £333 to change a hospital light switch; £963 for a new TV aerial in a hospital. Some of the terms of the contracts are disgraceful and it is right that we look at them.
Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden) (Lab)
Q3. On the “Politics Show” of 13 February, Boris Johnson’s deputy mayor with responsibility for policing, Kit Malthouse, boasted that he would ensure that every safer neighbourhood team in every ward in London would keep its two police constables and three police community support officers, and that he had the power to guarantee that. However, police officers in Mitcham have already told my constituents that those teams have been merged and that every safer neighbourhood team has been reduced to one police officer. Who does the Prime Minister believe—the London Mayor or serving police officers?
The Prime Minister
It is worth listening to both serving and retired police officers. The hon. Lady might want to listen to Jan Berry, who for years led the Police Federation, who said:
“With unnecessary bureaucracy being added at every tier of policing from the local to the national . . . I estimate one third of effort”—
one third—
“is either over-engineered, duplicated or adds no additional value. This is unaffordable in the current climate and”
we need to give consideration to how we can realise savings in time and energy. As in so many areas, we inherited a police service completely inefficient and not properly managed by Labour.
Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con)
Q4. There is an independent committee that ensures that once they have left office, former Ministers act appropriately in their subsequent employment. It is reported that Lord Mandelson, Baroness Symons and Adam Ingram have worked for the Gaddafi regime. Will the Prime Minister ensure that these reports are thoroughly investigated?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend makes a good point, and I am sure that those ex-Ministers will want to refer themselves immediately to that committee so that their links can be looked into.
Edward Miliband
The Prime Minister and the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government are adamant that there is no need for cuts in local authority front-line services. Can he therefore explain why Conservative-run Bromley council is shutting 13 of its 16 children’s centres?
The Prime Minister
Yes, we have made reductions in local government grant, because frankly we inherited a complete mess in the nation’s finances. What we have done is ask every single local authority to make public every single bit of spending they do so that members of the public can make sure that they are cutting bureaucracy, cutting councillor allowances and cutting pay, rather than cutting services. When the right hon. Gentleman gets to his feet, perhaps he can tell us why only one authority in the entire country, Labour-run Nottingham, refuses to do so.
Edward Miliband
You know he is losing the argument when he starts asking me the questions, Mr Speaker. Why are the cuts being made in Sure Start children’s centres? It is because the right hon. Gentleman is cutting the early years budget. The Department for Education’s own figures show an 11% cut between this year and next; and he is not just cutting the budget—he has removed the ring fence that protected it and kept those Sure Start centres open. We are getting used to the Prime Minister’s Question Time U-turn. We have seen it on school sport, housing benefit and, most recently, on forests. He has the capacity to ditch a policy and dump a colleague in it, so when he returns to the Dispatch Box, why does he not dump this policy too and reinstate the Sure Start ring fence?
The Prime Minister
In a minute, he is going to give me a lesson on family loyalty. Let me say this to the right hon. Gentleman: he comes here every week and says that he opposes the defence cuts, opposes changes in the Home Office and opposes any changes to local government, yet in four weeks’ time his own cuts programme, the Darling programme, comes into place, with £14 billion of cuts, which is only £2 billion less than we propose. It is about time he got off his opportunistic bandwagon and started producing some policies of his own.
Edward Miliband
This is a guy who has made his career out of opportunism knocks. Remember what he said at the election: he was strongly committed to Sure Start; he would improve Sure Start; and if anyone suggested otherwise, it was an absolute disgrace. As children’s centres face closure, people know that he has got it in his power to stop it happening by reinforcing that Sure Start ring fence. He is the Prime Minister; it might not have looked like it last week, but why does he not get a grip?
The Prime Minister
What we are doing for children in this country is funding education for two-year-olds for the first time, putting money into the pupil premium—something the right hon. Gentleman did not do for 13 years—and making sure that money is focused on the most disadvantaged. That is what is actually happening. When the party opposite looks at his performance—[Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. Let us have a bit of order in the House. I want to get to the bottom of the Order Paper and the House needs to help in that process.
The Prime Minister
The money for Sure Start is there, so centres do not have to close. [Interruption.] Yes, and I think that when the Opposition consider the right hon. Gentleman’s performance it could be time for a bit of “Brother, where art thou?”
Mr Roger Gale (North Thanet) (Con)
Recently, eight Members from both Houses of Parliament met, in Islamabad, Mr Shahbaz Bhatti. This morning, we learned that Mr Bhatti, on his way to work, was murdered. Mr Bhatti was a man committed to peace and multi-faith reconciliation. Will my right hon. Friend send through the high commission our condolences to the Pakistani Government and to his family, and will he restate our belief that there is no place for that kind of action anywhere in a democratic world?
The Prime Minister
I think my hon. Friend speaks for the whole House and, I am sure, the whole country. It was absolutely shocking to hear the news this morning about that Minister, who was a Christian minister in Pakistan, being killed in that way—absolutely brutal and unacceptable. It shows what a huge problem we have in our world with intolerance, and what my hon. Friend says is absolutely right. I will send not only our condolences, but our clearest possible message to the Government and people of Pakistan that that is simply unacceptable.
Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)
Q5. Two weeks ago, the Prime Minister gave the House some figures to criticise the flexible new deal. I thought they sounded a bit odd, so I asked the Library to check, and its response states: “This is a misleading interpretation of the statistics.”The Library points out that the Department for Work and Pensions website warns directly against interpreting the figures in the way the Prime Minister interpreted them. In future, can he get someone to check his figures before he gives them to the House?
The Prime Minister
I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that the figures were properly checked, and I shall write him a letter outlining not only the figures for the flexible new deal, which so many people know was just a revolving door for young people who needed employment, but the figures for the future jobs fund, which cost five times as much as many other programmes.
John Glen (Salisbury) (Con)
Q6. With the police using 2,000 different IT systems employing 5,000 staff, is it not time for this Government to start reforming police practices, so that more resources can be devoted to fighting crime on the front line?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend makes an extremely important point. The British police are incredibly brave and professional, and all of us see how hard they work in our communities, but they are let down by a system that has far too many officers in back-office roles, in HR and in IT, and not on the streets. That is what needs to change, along with some of the working practices that, frankly, are not actually modern and up to date. We need to make sure that that happens so that we keep the maximum number of police on the front line in our communities.
Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)
Q7. The armed forces have our total support and admiration, and traditionally they would have looked to a Conservative Government, whether in good economic times or bad, to defend them as they defend us. Given the deplorable treatment that they are currently receiving, whether by e-mail or hard copy, what plans does the Prime Minister have to restore faith in government?
The Prime Minister
Everyone in the House appreciates that our armed forces are among the most brave and professional anywhere in the world, and we can be incredibly proud of what they do. In terms of making sure that we look after them, the Government have introduced a doubling of the operational allowance for all those serving in Afghanistan; we are the first Government in history to introduce a pupil premium so that the children of service personnel get extra money when they go to school; we are making sure that rest and recuperation leave is properly formed; and we are writing out the military covenant and properly referencing it in law. The most important thing of all is to have a defence review and to make sure that our forces are fit for the future.
To all those who express concern, I make this point: at the end of that defence review, we will have the fourth largest military budget in the world; some of the most capable weapons that any air force in the world could have; the new Type 45 destroyers; our nuclear deterrent; and a superbly professional Army. That is what we want in this country, and that is what this Government will support.
Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con)
Q8. Will the Prime Minister join me in encouraging schools in my constituency and right across the country to get involved in the Tenner Tycoon school business competition, which encourages enterprise and is running this month?
The Prime Minister
Yes, it sounds like an excellent scheme. There is a lot that we should do to encourage business and enterprise to go into our schools to encourage young people to think about a career in starting up a business, in small business and in enterprise. That is a very important part of a rounded education.
Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)
Q9. On Sunday, a woman asked me what politicians were going to do for people like her, as she had been waiting for a disability living allowance appeal for 11 months. Given the roll-out of the employment support allowance and the proposals for more reviews and more assessments in DLA, what plans does the Prime Minister have for expanding the Tribunals Service, and has this been fully costed in his welfare reforms?
The Prime Minister
This House will obviously have a lot of opportunity to debate the Welfare Reform Bill, which is one of the most complex and detailed pieces of legislation on reforming our welfare system. On DLA specifically, what we are looking for, in terms of the gateway, is to make sure that people have a proper assessment for DLA, because there are too many cases where people need it and do not get it and, regrettably, some cases where people do not need it and do get it, and we need to put that right.
Sir Peter Tapsell (Louth and Horncastle) (Con)
While we must clearly do everything that we can to help the non-Libyans who are seeking to get out of that country, may we hope that the Libyans will be allowed to determine the fate of Colonel Gaddafi?
The Prime Minister
I very much hope that they do. We should support and say how much we admire those brave people who are standing up in their own country asking for greater freedoms and greater democracy—for things that we take for granted in our own country. What has been striking is that although many said that any sort of rebellion like this would be extremist, or Islamist, or tribal, it is none of those things; it is a revolt by the people, who want to have greater democracy in their country.
Graeme Morrice (Livingston) (Lab)
Q10. Last week, Save the Children published research showing that 1.6 million children are living in severe poverty in the United Kingdom, yet this week the Government have failed to include low-income families in the warm home discount scheme for rebates on their energy bills. Will the Prime Minister meet Save the Children on this critical issue and ask the Chancellor to publish an emergency plan to tackle severe child poverty in the Budget and the child poverty strategy later this month?
The Prime Minister
I do see Save the Children regularly. It is an excellent organisation in terms of the work that it does overseas and the pressure that it rightly brings to bear here in this country. What we have done in trying to help with child poverty is to make sure that we massively increase the child tax credit. That is what we have done in the Budget and in the spending round to make sure that while we are making difficult decisions, child poverty has not increased.
Gareth Johnson (Dartford) (Con)
Q11. The Prime Minister will know that for years the welfare state has been too easily abused. Can he therefore assure this House that in future the welfare state will act as a safety net for the unfortunate and not as a way of life for the workshy?
The Prime Minister
What this Government are doing—and it is a historic reform—is making sure that the welfare state always means that it is worth while someone being in work and worth while someone working more. That is what universal credit is all about, and it will make a huge difference to welfare in this country.
Teresa Pearce (Erith and Thamesmead) (Lab)
Q12. Many of the poorest and most disadvantaged children in my constituency will not be included in the pupil premium because their parents are still waiting for their immigration status to be settled and therefore have no access to funds and are not eligible for free school meals. Will the Prime Minister ask his Ministers to meet me and other Members in constituencies like mine to discuss a way to capture these children to ensure that our schools are not underfunded?
The Prime Minister
The hon. Lady makes an important point. When we established the pupil premium, we had a number of discussions to try to work out the best basis to put it on. In the short term, the free school meals indicator was the best basis. However, I am very happy to arrange a meeting between her and my right hon. Friend the Education Secretary to see what we can do to make sure that we really are targeting those most in need. There may be opportunities, perhaps not this year but in the future, to make sure that the pupil premium is helping those who most need it.
Stephen Williams (Bristol West) (LD)
Yesterday, the Secretary of State for Transport made a most welcome announcement on the electrification of the Great Western main line to Bristol, Cardiff and the south Wales valleys, including the fact that the jobs producing those trains will be in the north-east of England. Does not this show that the coalition Government not only have a strategy for growth but that that vision for growth is both high-tech and green?
The Prime Minister
The hon. Gentleman makes a very good point. In 13 years, the previous Government never electrified the west coast main line out to Cardiff. We have managed to announce it within nine months. He is absolutely right. The good news is not just the electrification of the line to Cardiff, but the new factory in Newton Aycliffe that will build the trains and that we are pressing ahead with High Speed 2.
Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland) (Lab)
Q13. Does the Prime Minister think he was right to tell journalists on a plane that the United Kingdom is paying bribes to Libya, and does he agree with the Foreign Office’s assessment that he was “loose-tongued and reckless”?
The Prime Minister
I am, of course, very grateful for that question. The point I would make is that in getting people out of Libya, we did have to pay some facilitation payments for the services in the airport. As the hon. Gentleman says, I am sure that those were entirely proper.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
Q14. The Royal British Legion has welcomed the Prime Minister’s personal commitment to a new military covenant being enshrined in the law of the land, but it has made it clear that it does not accept that the Government’s proposals for an annual armed forces covenant report honour that promise. Will he work constructively with the Royal British Legion to agree a definition of the military covenant that can be enshrined in legislation?
The Prime Minister
I am very happy to work with the Royal British Legion. It is one of the most important and hard-working organisations in our country. Not only does it do a great job in lobbying for the armed forces, it does a brilliant job in looking after former service personnel in all our constituencies. I am happy to have that conversation. However, I want to ensure not only that we reference the covenant properly in law, but that we regularly debate, improve and enhance it, partly through debates in this House.
Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)
I thank the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland for their work in securing an extra £200 million for the Police Service of Northern Ireland to combat the dissident terrorist threat. That will undoubtedly save lives and prevent the creation of further victims. On victims, given our campaign for compensation for the victims of Libyan state-sponsored IRA terrorism, will the Prime Minister give an assurance that before the normalisation of relations with Libya under any new regime, the outstanding matter of compensation will be addressed by the Government, not least through the use of Gaddafi assets seized in Britain?
The Prime Minister
First, I thank the right hon. Gentleman for what he said about the additional funding for the police in Northern Ireland. It is absolutely vital that we work hard with its Administration to ensure that the security situation there is as good as it can be. On what he said about compensation from the Libyans to victims of IRA terror, an FCO-led unit is still working on that issue and it is vital that it continues to go on doing that. It is an ingenious idea to use the frozen assets in that way. Having sought advice, those assets really belong to the Libyan people. The whole problem with Libya is that it is a rich country with poor people. We can see that in the extensive assets that have been frozen. Those assets belong to the Libyan people first and foremost.
Mark Lancaster (Milton Keynes North) (Con)
Q15. Milton Keynes council has been praised for its commitment to publishing all expenditure of more than £500, ensuring that local residents can see exactly how their council tax money is being spent. What message will the Prime Minister give to other local authorities that seem determined to keep their residents firmly in the dark?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend makes an extremely good point. I know that the Labour party is embarrassed about this, because we now have transparency from every single council in the country apart from one that is controlled by the Labour party—Nottingham—which will not tell us where it is spending its money. I want every single person in our country, every single Member of Parliament and all councillors to be able to ensure that the money is going on services and not on salaries, bureaucracy and allowances. That is the pressure at a time of austerity and of difficult national decisions. How typical it is of Labour just to try to cover it all up.
Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab)
In response to a question from me in December, the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government expressed himself as “delighted” with the level of cuts faced by Birmingham. Yesterday, Birmingham city council cut £212 million from its budget, hitting care for the elderly and the disabled, and youth services. Does the Prime Minister share his Communities Secretary’s delight or does he think that Birmingham is going too far, too fast?
The Prime Minister
Every council in the country is having to make difficult decisions about reducing their spending. When we look at what is actually happening to Government grants, we see that in most cases, they are going back to the levels that we had in 2007, 2006 or, in some cases, even 2009. Everyone has to take part in this, and I would just remind the hon. Gentleman that the reason this is being done is because his party made a complete mess of the economy.
Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con)
At a time when prices at the petrol pumps are going up and up, will the Government do all that they can to ease the pressure on hard-pressed motorists?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend makes an extremely good point. I know how difficult it is for motorists, and particularly for small businesses and families, when they are filling up at the pumps and paying more than £1.30 a litre. As we have said, we will look at the fact that extra revenue comes to the Treasury when there is a higher oil price, and will see whether we can share some of the benefit of that with the motorist. That is something that Labour never did in all its time in government, and it ought to be reminded of the fact that it announced four increases in fuel duty last year, three of which were due to come in after the election.
Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab)
The £90 million of cuts to the budget of Leeds city council means that Bramley baths in my constituency will have its hours cut so that school children will not be able to swim there any more. How does that fit with the Government’s ambition for school sports and for the Olympic legacy for Leeds?
The Prime Minister
We do want to see a proper legacy come out of the Olympics. That is why we are funding the Olympics properly and why we have made it very clear that the extra money will be made available for school sport. But, if we look at education funding, we can see that funding per pupil is not being reduced. Because of difficult decisions being made elsewhere, which Labour has never supported, we are maintaining per-pupil funding for students throughout our country. That is the right decision, and it is one that the hon. Lady should get behind.
Gordon Birtwistle (Burnley) (LD)
When Colonel Gaddafi is finally removed, is the Prime Minister confident—[Interruption]—that an interim Government can be found to prevent the country from falling into anarchy?
The Prime Minister
I would advise my hon. Friend to ignore the voices from the Opposition. They are just furious at the fact that he liberated a long-held Labour seat. He makes a very good point. One of the things that we are doing, currently and in the coming days, is making contact with the opposition in Benghazi to ensure that we have good contacts with them so that we can help to bring about a peaceful transition in Libya.
Mr Speaker
Order. We come to the urgent question. Will right hon. and hon. Members who are not staying for this business but are leaving do so quickly and quietly so that the exchanges on the urgent question can take place properly?
Libya and the Middle East
Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton Excerpts(13 years, 2 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron)
I would like to update the House on the evacuation of British nationals from Libya, the actions we are pursuing against Colonel Gaddafi and his Administration, and developments in the wider region.
On evacuation, we have been working intensively to get our people out. As of now, we have successfully removed about 600 British nationals from Libya. The evacuation has centred on three locations: Tripoli airport, the port at Benghazi and the desert oilfields. At Tripoli airport, a series of six aircraft organised by the Foreign Office and an RAF C-130 Hercules flight have brought out more than 380 British nationals and a similar number of foreign citizens. At Benghazi, HMS Cumberland has carried out two evacuations from the port, bringing out 119 British nationals and 303 foreign citizens from more than 30 countries. The first of those evacuations took place in difficult sea conditions, and the second arrived in Malta earlier today. The evacuations were assisted on the ground by five rapid deployment teams. In total, nearly 30 extra staff from the Foreign Office helped to marshal British citizens in the midst of chaotic scenes in and around the airports and ports.
Clearly, the most challenging part of the evacuation has involved those British nationals scattered across more than 20 locations in the oilfields deep in the desert. On Friday evening, I authorised a military operation to bring as many of them as possible out of the desert. On Saturday, two RAF C-130 aircraft flew into the eastern desert and picked up 74 British nationals and 102 foreign nationals at three different locations. A second mission took place yesterday, bringing out a further 21 British nationals and 168 foreign nationals. One of the aircraft involved in the second mission suffered minor damage from small arms fire. That underlines the challenging environment in which the aircraft were operating.
Britain has now taken a leading role in co-ordinating the international evacuation effort. Our airborne warning and control system aircraft are directing international aircraft that are involved. Brigadier Bashall, who is commanding the UK operation, has established a temporary joint headquarters in Malta to help to co-ordinate the efforts of many countries. I have thanked the Maltese Prime Minister personally on behalf of the country. Not for the first time in our history, we should pay tribute to Malta and her people for the role that they are playing.
The number of British citizens remaining in Libya is of course difficult to ascertain precisely, given the situation on the ground. Many of them will be dual nationals, and not all of them will want to leave. I asked for urgent work to be done on accurate numbers in both categories—those who wish to leave and those who currently do not. Our current indications are that, as of today, there are fewer than 150 British citizens remaining in Libya, of whom only a very small proportion wish to leave. Clearly, that can change at any time, and we will keep the House regularly updated.
We will continue to do all we can to ensure that those who wish to leave can do so. HMS Cumberland will remain in the area, together with HMS York, which also stands ready off Tripoli to assist. We also have military aircraft, including C-130s and a BAe 146, in Malta ready to fly in at very short notice.
The Government will continue to focus on ensuring that our citizens are safe. Cobra has met regularly to co-ordinate the effort, and I personally chaired three meetings over the weekend. The National Security Council is looking at the overall strategic picture, and it met last Friday and again today, not least to look at other risks to British citizens in countries in the wider region. As I said last week, there will be lessons that we will wish to learn from this evacuation, including in respect of the hiring of charter aircraft, the use of defence assets and the need for greater redundancy.
Clearly, an important decision was when to extract our embassy. That decision was taken at the Cobra meeting on Friday and carried out on Saturday, after the remaining civilians had been extracted from Tripoli airport and in parallel with the start of the desert operations, which were of course planned from Malta. Our judgment throughout has been that the risk to British citizens, including our embassy, has been growing, and the Americans, French and Germans have similarly suspended the operations of their embassies. Britain retains a consul in Tripoli and a consular warden in Benghazi, and we have arranged that Turkey, which still has several thousand of its own citizens in Libya, will look after British interests while our embassy’s operations remain suspended.
I am sure the whole House will want to put on record its thanks to all those who have made the rescue effort possible—to the RAF pilots, the Royal Navy crews and all those involved from all three armed services for their skill; to our diplomatic service; and to all those who put themselves in harm’s way to help our people leave safely.
I turn to the pressure that we are now putting on Gaddafi’s regime. We should be clear that for the future of Libya and its people, Colonel Gaddafi’s regime must end and he must leave. To that end, we are taking every possible step to isolate the Gaddafi regime, to deprive it of money, to shrink its power and to ensure that anyone responsible for abuses in Libya will be held to account. With respect to all those actions, Britain is taking a lead.
Over the weekend, we secured agreement for a UN Security Council resolution that we had drafted, which is unusually strong, unanimous and includes all our proposals. It condemns Gaddafi’s actions and imposes a travel ban and asset freeze on those at the top of his murderous regime. It demands an immediate end to the violence and the killing of protesters, access for international human rights monitors, the lifting of restrictions on the internet and media and an end to the intimidation and detention of journalists. It also refers Libya’s current leaders to the International Criminal Court to face the justice they deserve. We were also the driving force behind a special session of the UN Human Rights Council on Friday, which started work to eject Libya from the council, and the Foreign Secretary is in Geneva today, along with US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, to see that work through.
With our European partners, we have today secured agreement on freezing the assets of a wider group of individuals and banning them from entering the European Union, and on imposing a wider arms embargo on the Libyan regime. Britain is also leading in implementing those direct measures against the regime. A special Privy Council session was held yesterday, as a result of which we have frozen the assets of Gaddafi, five of his family members, people acting for them or on their behalf, and entities that are owned or controlled by them. The Treasury has stepped in to block a shipment of some £900 million of banknotes destined for Libya. The Government have revoked Colonel Gaddafi’s immunity as Head of State, so neither he nor his family may enter the UK. We have also revoked the visas of a number of Libyans linked to the regime, who are now on immigration watch lists.
We will look at each and every way of stepping up pressure on this regime, such as further isolation by expelling it from international organisations and further use of asset freezes and travel bans, to give the clearest possible message to those on the fringes of the regime that now is the time to desert it.
In addition, we do not in any way rule out the use of military assets. We must not tolerate this regime using military force against its own people. In that context, I have asked the Ministry of Defence and the Chief of the Defence Staff to work with our allies on plans for a military no-fly zone. It is clear that this is an illegitimate regime that has lost the consent of its people, and our message to Colonel Gaddafi is simple: go now.
Everyone hopes that the situation will be resolved quickly, but there is a real danger now of a humanitarian crisis inside Libya. We have dispatched technical Department for International Development teams to be in place at both the Tunisian and Egyptian borders. Currently, the most pressing need is to assist the large numbers of migrant workers into Egypt and Tunisia to get them home. The International Development Secretary will visit the region later this week to assess the situation on the ground for himself, but in the meantime Britain will fly in tents and blankets from our stocks in Dubai for use at the Tunisian border.
North Africa and the wider middle east are now at the epicentre of momentous events. History is sweeping through this region. Yes, we must deal with the immediate consequences, especially for British citizens caught up in these developments, but we must also be clear about what these developments mean and how Britain and the west in general should respond.
In many parts of the Arab world, hopes and aspirations that have been smothered for decades are stirring. People—especially young people—are seeking their rights, and in the vast majority of cases they are doing so peacefully and bravely. The parallels with what happened in Europe in 1989 are not, of course, precise, and there have been many disappointments in the past, but those of us who believe in democracy and open society should be clear that this is a precious moment of opportunity.
While it is not for us to dictate how each country should meet the aspirations of its people, we must not remain silent in our belief that freedom and the rule of law are what best guarantee human progress and economic success. Freedom of expression, a free press, freedom of assembly and the right to demonstrate peacefully are basic rights—they are as much the rights of people in Tahrir square as they are of people in Trafalgar square. They are not British or western values, but the values of human beings everywhere.
We therefore need to take this opportunity to look again at our entire relationship with this region—at the billions of euros of EU funds, at our trade relationships, and at our cultural ties. We need to be much clearer and tougher in linking our development assistance to real progress in promoting more open and plural societies, and we need to dispense once and for all with the outdated notion that democracy has no place in the Arab world. Too often in the past, we have made a false choice between so-called stability on the one hand and reform and openness on the other. As recent events have confirmed, denying people their basic rights does not preserve stability, rather the reverse.
We should be clear too that now is not the time to park the middle east peace process—quite the opposite. In short, reform, not repression, is the way to lasting stability. No one pretends that democracy and open societies can be built overnight. Democracy is the work of patient craftsmanship, and it takes time, as we know from our own history, to put its building blocks in place. However, what is happening in the wider middle east is one of those once-in-a-generation opportunities—a moment when history turns a page. The next page may not be written, and it falls to us to seize this chance to fashion a better future for the region, to build a better relationship between our peoples, and to make a new start.
As the inspiring opposition leaders whom I met in Tahrir square said to me last week, we now have the opportunity of achieving freedoms that people in Britain take for granted. I am determined that we should not let them down, and I commend this statement to the House.
Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab)
May I thank the Prime Minister for his statement? I should like to ask him about the four areas he covered—the immediate safety of British nationals, the future of the Libyan regime and the wider middle east, and the lessons learned from this crisis—but may I first join him in expressing deep and abiding gratitude to members of the British armed forces, who have succeeded with such extraordinary courage and professionalism in evacuating so many of our citizens and those of many other countries from Libya over the last week? Those brave men and women are a credit to our nation. May I also add my thanks to the Foreign Office staff on the ground in Libya for their efforts?
As the Prime Minister said, our first concern must always be the safety of our own people. For obvious operational and security reasons, I would not expect the Prime Minister to discuss future operations, but will he reassure the House that all contingencies continue to be looked at in relation to any remaining UK citizens stranded in Libya? Given the closure of the British embassy on Saturday—I understand the reasons for that—will he assure us that everything continues to be done to keep in close contact with those citizens who remain, and tell us what means of communication are available to them?
On the question of Libya’s political future, I think that the whole House will endorse the Prime Minister’s view that the only acceptable future is one without Colonel Gaddafi and his regime. We welcome what the Prime Minister said about a possible no-fly zone. We also welcome the international isolation of Libya expressed in UN Security Council resolution 1970, including sanctions and an arms embargo, and the decision to refer the killing of protesters to the International Criminal Court.
The resolution imposes travel bans on 17 Gaddafi loyalists and asset freezes on a number of other individuals. Will the Prime Minister tell the House whether he thinks that those asset freezes go wide enough and cover all those beyond Colonel Gaddafi’s immediate family who have decided to stand with him? Will the Prime Minister reassure the House that the Government will make full use of the provision in paragraph 23 of the resolution to nominate additional regime members who should be targeted by travel bans and asset freezes? On the human rights situation, there is clearly a growing humanitarian crisis on the Tunisian border and I welcome the steps that will be taken, which the Prime Minister talked about.
Let me turn to events beyond Libya, in the wider region. The events unfolding across the middle east—the Prime Minister reflected this in his statement—are as significant as the revolutions that liberated eastern Europe in 1989. As he says, our response to them needs to be equally ambitious. There is a popular will in many of those countries for democratic reform, and that movement is in line with the values that we share.
Does the Prime Minister agree that the way to approach this situation is to build a strategic response, including closer economic ties, support for civil society and institution-building in those countries? Will he concede that, although there is much that we can and should do bilaterally, real progress will require sustained will and effort at a multilateral level, including at the level of the European Union? May I also share the sentiment that he expressed that it will be a tragedy if, in this moment of change, the opportunity were not grasped to make progress on the Israel-Palestine issue? May I therefore support his calls for the rapid resumption of talks between Israel and the Palestinians and his decision to support the recent UN Security Council resolution on settlements? What steps will the UK take to get negotiations moving again?
Will the Prime Minister confirm that the Government will work with EU partners to strengthen both the guidelines and the operation of the rules on arms sales?
May I ask about the lessons to be learned from the immediate crisis response last week? Many hon. Members on both sides of the House have in recent days been dealing with constituents who are deeply anxious about family members stranded in Libya. Does the Prime Minister accept that the Foreign Office should have done more, as other countries did, to ensure that planes were on the ground in Libya on Tuesday, rather than late on Wednesday night, to evacuate our citizens? Will he explain why that was not the case? Given the scale of the emergency and the transparent need for co-ordination across Government, does the Prime Minister now agree that the emergency committee, Cobra, should have been convened earlier than Thursday? Again, will he explain why that did not happen?
Will the Prime Minister share with the House the wider lessons that he personally learned about the running of his Government? I think that the whole country has now, thankfully, seen the scale of response that can be mobilised to help our citizens, but will he promise that British nationals abroad will not be let down in future, as they were by the chaos and incompetence that we saw last week? I am surprised that he has not taken the opportunity of his statement to apologise to the House for the handling of the crisis last week. I hope that, in his reply, he will take the opportunity to do so.
When the inquiry is completed, will the Prime Minister promise that there will be an oral statement to report its findings to the House, along with the conclusions on the lessons that need to be learned?
The Prime Minister
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his praise of our armed forces. They have done a magnificent job, as they always do. As he says, we should also thank the Foreign Office staff and those in the Foreign Office crisis centre, which I visited, which is manning the phones round the clock and doing an extremely difficult job.
On future operations, it is difficult to say much more in the House, but obviously I have given the new figures on the number of British citizens we believe are still in Libya and the number who want to leave. It is a very small number at the moment who still want to leave. Obviously, that can change and, as I explained, we have the assets in place to help where appropriate.
In terms of what replaces our embassy, as I explained, we are going to have a consul in Tripoli, but we will be working with the Turkish Government, who still have thousands of nationals in-country, and I have spoken to the Turkish Prime Minister as well as to many other people.
The right hon. Gentleman asked whether the travel bans and the asset freezes go wide enough, which is a very important point. Right now, what we want to do is isolate and target the key members of the Libyan regime, with a clear warning that those close to the regime have a choice—they can desert it or leave it, but if they stay with it there is a chance that they will be hit by travel bans and asset freezes, too. That is all part of turning up the pressure.
As for the wider region, I agree with the right hon. Gentleman about institution-building and, indeed, making sure that the European Union sharpens its act on its neighbourhood policy. I think that there is room, yes, for multilateral action, but I hope that in this country we can do more in terms of political relations and on building party-to-party relations to try to help to build up the building blocks of democracy in those countries.
I agree with the right hon. Gentleman about Israel-Palestine. I am proud of the fact that we backed the Security Council resolution. That was the right decision, although it meant a disagreement with our oldest and strongest ally, the United States. On arms sales, I agree that the guidelines need to be clear and need to be adhered to.
Finally, the right hon. Gentleman asked some questions about lessons to be learned. As I said, I think that there are lessons to learn. What worked in Egypt—a combination of scheduled and charter flights—did not work as well in Libya. Lessons need to be learned, including about the use of military assets, but I would make the point that it is not as easy as some people say. The more you rely on charters earlier, the more the scheduled airlines collapse, and you can leave yourself with a bigger problem.
The right hon. Gentleman asked about learning lessons in the wider running of government. Of course, there are always lessons to learn, and perhaps, if apologies are in order, he should think about one for the appalling dodgy dealing with Libya under the last Government.
Richard Ottaway (Croydon South) (Con)
I agree with the Prime Minister that, in view of the complete chaos that has engulfed Libya, there is a real opportunity, together with our European partners, to expedite the downfall of the present regime and create a post-Gaddafi structure in the vacuum. However, does he agree that, given Libya’s appalling record on human rights, it was a complete misjudgment to enter into a defence co-operation agreement with it?
The Prime Minister
I do think that there are lessons to learn from the deal in the desert. The previous Government were correct to encourage the giving up of weapons of mass destruction, but more parameters should have been put on the relationship, particularly— I have made the point before—regarding the release of al-Megrahi. It should not have been the British Government’s position to try to facilitate that. Lessons need to be learned more broadly about that, and I am sure that there will be an opportunity to do so.
Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab)
I echo the commendations of our forces and diplomatic and other staff who have worked hard to provide an adequate service for British citizens and others stranded in Libya. I commend the other actions that the Government are now taking, but may I ask the Prime Minister to expand on the point he made in his statement about what he described as greater redundancy for responding to future crises, by which I assume he meant greater resilience and greater resources. Does he accept that cutting Foreign Office staff by 450 to save £30 million at a time when its budgets are flat cannot do other than significantly undermine its ability to respond adequately and promptly when the next crisis occurs?
The Prime Minister
I obviously listen to the right hon. Gentleman, given his experience. The cuts to the Foreign Office are much less severe than cuts to other Departments, so I do not think that that has had a material impact. As for the issue of redundancy, clearly in the case of Egypt, the combination of scheduled flights and adding in charter flights meant that we led the pack in getting people out. In Libya, the situation was different and more difficult, and we need to learn the lessons about what extra capacity we need to put in place. As I have said, it is not as simple as some people think, because if capacity is added too quickly, scheduled flights collapse—bmi and BA both fly to Libya—and you land yourself with a bigger problem. The lessons should be learned. The only point that I would make now is that, as we stand today, Britain is doing a huge amount to help other countries out of Libya, and is helping more than 32 nationalities.
Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)
It is strange, is it not, that when we have a defence review, we are told that we are no longer a world power and do not need the Royal Navy, yet as we saw last week we need one more than ever? How ironic it was that the only ship that we could find to send was one on the way to the scrapyard. Will my right hon. Friend assure the House that as long as he is on the bridge of state, there will be no further cuts in the Royal Navy?
The Prime Minister
We are exceptionally well served by our Royal Navy, and it is good that not only HMS Cumberland but HMS York have been on hand to help in Libya. We are making a reduction in the number of frigates, but we do have the Type 45s coming onstream. In all cases, however, a mixture of military and civilian assets needs to be brought to bear to ensure that we can get people out of countries such as Libya.
David Miliband (South Shields) (Lab)
The Prime Minister has my strong support for the vote that his Government cast at the UN Security Council on 17 February. The previous Government cast a similar vote in January 2009 with cross-party support. However, does he agree that the lessons of the past decade are that the Israelis and Palestinians will not of their own volition negotiate a solution between themselves, that the international community needs to force the pace on the terms and timing of a resolution to that terrible dispute, and that that needs to be led from the UN Security Council?
The Prime Minister
I agree with the right hon. Gentleman, and it is good to see him in his place. I am trying to ensure that there is a real combination effort between Britain, France, Germany and the United States to try to provide that backing. The only problem is—he will be aware of this—that it is difficult for us to want a solution more than the parties want one. However, we should apply all the available pressure we can, and we should be making the argument right now that the awakening of democracy in the middle east is not a threat to the peace process, but could be an opportunity.
Mr James Arbuthnot (North East Hampshire) (Con)
President Mahmoud Abbas has called for elections to the Palestinian Authority. Does my right hon. Friend share my concern that Hamas, whose electoral mandate has expired, is refusing to allow such elections to take place in Gaza?
The Prime Minister
My right hon. Friend makes a good point. The key thing in our engagement should be to ask those on the Palestinian side to accept the key principles of recognising the state of Israel and former agreements. Then it will be possible to go forward and hold proper negotiations. However, we need that to happen in order to get both parties around the table properly and to hammer out the solution that I think everybody knows is there.
Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab)
In his conversations with President Obama, has the Prime Minister emphasised the urgency of the situation and the opportunity that events in the middle east provide to make progress on Israel-Palestine, and has he also expressed disappointment at the American veto of the resolution?
The Prime Minister
I have had very frank conversations with President Obama about this. I believe in the special relationship—it is an incredibly close and important relationship—but I also believe that when we disagree, we should be frank in saying so, and on this issue Britain and America do not agree. We think that the resolution, although not ideally drafted, was basically right, which is why we voted for it, and we are very disappointed that it was vetoed. Obviously, we have to persuade the Americans that further investment in the peace process is absolutely worth it, not just for its own sake, but for the wider peace of the region and to remove a great cause of instability and extremism in our world.
Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)
The Government have been absolutely right to support the forces of democratic change, but, further to his statement, does my right hon. Friend think that this support will have any effect on future relationships with our other autocratic friends in the region?
The Prime Minister
As I hope my hon. Friend will have noticed, I have just completed a trip to the Gulf region, and I was quite struck by the fact that a number of our very strong and old allies, such as Kuwait, Qatar and Oman, are in favour of taking further steps towards democracy and more open societies. Far from being dismayed by our very clear reaction that democracy, freedom and that sort of progress are good things, they were fully in support of them.
Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op)
When he was in Kuwait, as well as promoting arms sales and exports, did the Prime Minister have an opportunity to discuss with John Major, the former Prime Minister, the fact that 20 years ago, a no-fly zone was imposed without a Security Council resolution? Is it not time that the European Union NATO members worked more urgently to ensure that Gaddafi’s regime cannot use helicopters and aircraft to crush resistance to him?
The Prime Minister
I agree with the hon. Gentleman. It was a pleasure being in Kuwait with Sir John Major, because it was an opportunity to commemorate the action that he led, as Prime Minister, in liberating that country from Saddam Hussein. To those who question whether it is right to take defence companies on a visit to Kuwait, I would say that 20 years ago we risked the lives of our service personnel to free that country. It seems to me an odd argument, therefore, to say that Kuwait should not have the means of its own defence. On a no-fly zone, of course we must comply with international law, but my argument is that we need to do the preparation and planning now, because no one can be sure what Colonel Gaddafi will do to his own people. If he starts taking that sort of action, we might need to have a no-fly zone in place very quickly.
Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD)
The Prime Minister is right to praise the bravery of UK forces and staff in evacuating UK citizens. However, many international companies have lucrative business operations in Libya, working in high-risk environments such as desert oilfields in a country with an oppressive regime. Is he satisfied that those companies have adequate emergency evacuation plans in place, or does business also need to learn some lessons about the safeguarding of employees?
The Prime Minister
The hon. Lady makes an extremely good point. We should be having this conversation with oil companies. Yes, of course, they have security and transport arrangements, and it is important to work with them when we are trying to get our people out, to ensure that they are playing their part in delivering that. I am sure that there are lessons to learn, and there is probably more that they could have done, rather than being quite so reliant on us.
Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central) (Lab)
May I tell the Prime Minister what a great pleasure it is to see him in his place today, because I have spent the past week trying to speak to a Foreign Office Minister with no success? On the substantive issue of Libya, the fact that the International Criminal Court has been invoked has been a welcome development, but will the right hon. Gentleman make it quite clear from the Dispatch Box that this will apply not only to Colonel Gaddafi and his immediate family but to anyone in Libya who chooses to side with his regime in any future atrocities?
The Prime Minister
The hon. Gentleman makes an extremely good point. The reach of the International Criminal Court and of international law applies not only to people in the Gaddafi regime and those in the armed forces who commit atrocities but to any mercenary who goes to Libya and takes part in those activities. As I have said, the reach of international law is very long, and its memory is also very long, and quite right too.
Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con)
The Prime Minister has described a very fluid series of events. If we step back from them, we can see that this is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to encourage democracy to spread across the middle east. He gave a robust message to Colonel Gaddafi. Does he have an equally robust message for the other dictators in Africa who have chosen not to support democracy but to send mercenaries to support Colonel Gaddafi’s dictatorship?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend makes a good point. This is a test for everyone. It is a test for NATO, for the European Union, for the Arab League and, yes, for the African Union as well. The Arab League has, commendably, suspended Libya’s membership, and we should be looking to the African Union to take robust action as well. My hon. Friend’s point about mercenaries is certainly well made, and we should be making that very clear to African armies and leaders who are contemplating that sort of measure.
Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)
Should we be pleased, given Gaddafi’s history, that Britain took part in an arms fair in Libya last November at which all kinds of crowd control equipment and sniper rifles were sold to the regime there? Frankly, Prime Minister, is it not time that this country—whichever Government are in office—stopped selling arms to murdering bastards who terrorise their own people?
The Prime Minister
I would make the point—I think it is a cross-party point—that this country now has some of the toughest arms control legislation in the world. This Government immediately revoked about 30 licences, covering a whole range of products, to that regime and others in the region, and I think that that was right, but are there further lessons to be learned? I am quite clear that we should be looking at this and seeing what more can be done.
David Tredinnick (Bosworth) (Con)
Can my right hon. Friend reassure the House that he has learned the lessons from the failure of the last Labour Government to plan effectively for what happens after regime change?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend makes the important point that we now need to plan for every eventuality. That is why I mentioned in my statement the importance of planning for a potential humanitarian crisis. We also need to plan for what might happen should the regime fall, or—something we do not want to happen—should it embed itself for a long time, resulting effectively in civil war in Libya. We have to prepare for every eventuality and work with the international community to ensure that we are ready for them.
Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)
Further to the point made by the hon. Member for Walsall North (Mr Winnick), may I point out to the Prime Minister that the end user certificate scheme is broken? It does not work. Since the first half of last year, £31 million worth of armaments have been sold to Libya, including water cannon, stun guns, smoke grenades and tear gas—in other words, a panoply of equipment that can be used against civilians, rather than to defend the state against aggression by another.
The Prime Minister
The right hon. Gentleman makes a good point. If we look at the whole terms of the deal done in the desert, we need to ask ourselves some serious questions about how widely it went and what sort of equipment was involved. Frankly, I am pleased that we have put in place the revocation of these licences, but there are lessons to learn about what was intended by what was agreed several years ago.
Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that the unanimous decision by the Security Council to refer Gaddafi to the International Criminal Court is of great importance because it demonstrates incontrovertibly for the first time that if Heads of State and Heads of Government commit human rights offences, they will be liable to prosecution?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend makes an extremely good point. When Britain—and it was Britain—drafted the text of this resolution, the advice I was given suggested that it would take days or possibly weeks to get through the UN Security Council. It is remarkable that the Security Council has adopted this resolution unanimously with no votes against and that all countries—without naming them—backed it. It is a very positive sign, which I hope means that when we come forward with fresh Security Council resolutions to tighten further the screw on this dreadful regime, we will gain similar support.
Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab)
On planning for the future, has the Prime Minister had any discussions with NATO about whether, if we require further rescue actions, it could play a larger role so that we go beyond bilateral action?
The Prime Minister
The hon. Lady makes an important point. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence has discussed with NATO today a range of issues, including the one she mentions and military planning for no-fly zones. Although there have been bilateral efforts by countries such as Britain to get into areas such as the desert to rescue our own people, there has also been a huge amount of co-ordination in Malta—I pay tribute to Brigadier Bashall for leading this process—to make sure that, whether the planes are German, British or Canadian, we take each other’s nationals out. I have had a range of conversations with different Prime Ministers and Presidents to make sure that we all help each other in this regard. That is what is being co-ordinated from Malta.
Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con)
Is my right hon. Friend concerned about the prospect of Gaddafi unleashing his significant war machine against the people of Libya? Will he reflect on properly arming those who are resisting Gaddafi, if necessary, in order to ensure that they are not wiped out, as happened in Srebrenica and Sarajevo?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend makes an important point. We are trying to establish better contact with the opposition in Libya and to learn more about them and their intentions. What we want—I would argue it is in our interest and in that of the whole world, including the Libyan people—is the swift removal of Colonel Gaddafi from his position. If helping the opposition in Libya would help to bring that about, it is certainly something we should consider.
Frank Dobson (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab)
Will the Prime Minister confirm that there is nothing new or peculiarly Labour about dodgy relations between the British Government and the murderous Libyan regime? Will he confirm that when Metropolitan Police Constable Yvonne Fletcher was shot dead from the Libyan embassy in April 1984, the Thatcher Government humiliated the Commissioner of the Metropolitan police by requiring him to provide policemen to escort the murderer to the airport so that he could get back safely to Libya?
The Prime Minister
That is a somewhat tortured way of making a political point, and I would make one in return. [Interruption.] We have to comply with international rules, but let me make one simple point. During the last Parliament there was a choice about whether to support the release of al-Megrahi: one party decided that it was the right thing to do, and I am proud to say that my party did not.
Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)
My grandfather was one of thousands of Jews who had to leave Libya because of Gaddafi’s appropriation of Jewish businesses and homes, and he came to this country because of its democracy. He would have been shocked to have seen not only the close relations between the last Government and Gaddafi, but the acceptance by our distinguished universities, particularly the London School of Economics, of more than £1 million from Gaddafi. Will my right hon. Friend take steps to ensure that such a scandal never happens again?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend speaks with great power. What I have said about relations with Libya is that, while of course it was right to try to bring that country in from the cold, the question is whether parameters should have been put on the relationship. I think that it is for everyone to ask what agreements they reached. I heard the head of the London School of Economics on the radio this morning trying to justify one such agreement. Let us hope that at least the money that the LSE has can be put to a good use.
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
Given the circumstances that the Prime Minister has described, is it not increasingly difficult to explain the behaviour of the UK Trade & Investment special trade ambassador, who is not only a very close friend of Saif Gaddafi but a close friend of the convicted Libyan gun smuggler Tarek Kaituni? Is it not time that we dispensed with the services of the Duke of York?
The Prime Minister
I am not aware of the particular connections that the hon. Gentleman chooses to make, although I am happy to look into them. However, if we are to disqualify friends of Saif Gaddafi from public life, I think that he will be saying goodbye to one or two of his old friends.
Mr Speaker
Order. I am extremely grateful to the Prime Minister for his reply, but may I just say, for future reference, that references to members of the royal family should be very rare, very sparing and very respectful? [Interruption.] Order. We have to be very careful in our handling of these matters, and I hope that we will be.
Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)
I thank and congratulate the brave young airmen and women of RAF Lyneham, which is still in my constituency and whose C-130J Hercules played such a crucial role in the evacuation. Does the Prime Minister agree that in future a much greater role could be played by contractors who at present have fairly scant plans for evacuations? If they expanded their own plans, we would lessen the risk to young service lives.
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend has made a good point. Obviously there needs to be a deeper conversation and greater planning between companies and the Government. Of course, companies have played an important role, but I feel that we need to ensure that we get this right for the future. Trying to bring people out of the desert across 20 or more platforms is extremely complicated, and I am sure that we can learn some lessons about how to do it better in future.
Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab)
I think that we all wish to record our tremendous admiration for the courage and tenacity of the Libyan people—men, women and children—who are fighting the dictator with their bare hands. As for learning lessons, we should bear in mind what happened when a no-fly zone was provided for the Kurds of Iraq. That was John Major’s move, and it meant that thousands of Kurds were protected. Obviously there is not a great deal that we can do immediately, but we should consider that as a matter of great importance. I believe that it might save thousands of lives, if Gaddafi were to bomb his own people from the air.
The Prime Minister
The right hon. Lady always speaks about these issues with great passion. I think that she is right to draw attention to what people are doing in Libya, where they are showing extraordinary bravery. As we have seen across north Africa and the middle east, this is not an Islamist revolution but a people’s revolution. People want the sort of freedoms that we take for granted in this country.
I have to tell the right hon. Lady that introducing a no-fly zone is not without its difficulties and problems. Libya is an enormous country. We would be trying to cover a vast area, and a serious amount of military assets would be required to achieve that. Furthermore, it would not necessarily stop all oppression of the Libyan people, because there are ways of carrying that out other than through helicopter gunships and planes. However, I think that it is one thing that we need to look at urgently and plan for, in case we find—as we may well do—that Colonel Gaddafi is taking further appalling steps to oppress his people. That is why the conversations are taking place today.
Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD)
It has been good to hear more muscular liberalism this afternoon. The Prime Minister rightly called Gaddafi’s rule an illegitimate regime that has lost the consent of its people. When does he consider that it was last anything other than that?
The Prime Minister
I have never supported Colonel Gaddafi or his regime, and I think that his regime is illegitimate. Clearly that prompts the question of how long we are going to go on recognising it in any way, which is why I have requested another urgently needed piece of work. We must ensure that we do everything that we can to isolate it. We must cut off money, cut off supply and cut off oxygen from the regime, so that it falls as fast as it possibly can.
Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab)
You will recall, Mr Speaker, that 10 days ago, in an urgent question, I begged the Foreign Secretary to suspend arms sales to the region and to gear up the Foreign Office response. I am very glad that the Prime Minister has got a grip on that.
I welcomed the last part of the Prime Minister’s statement about building on what is being done to create a new approach to democracy. Would he consider creating a British foundation for democracy development? It would include businesses, non-governmental organisations, the media, judges and trade unions. Its work would be similar to the work of the know-how fund, and the work that was done to support people in eastern Europe after 1989 and in the Iberian peninsula in the 1970s. Could some development money be spent on that? If so, we would be able to create something that could help everyone in the future rather than recriminating about the past.
The Prime Minister
I am not always in complete agreement with the right hon. Gentleman, but this is one such occasion. I very much support the whole idea of greater party-to-party contacts and political contacts, and building up what I call the building blocks of democracy in terms of civil society and political parties. This is an area in which Britain has expertise and excellence. We have the Westminster Foundation for Democracy, of course, so we need to ask whether there is more we can do with that, or whether we need to build a new mechanism. I am, however, glad to see cross-party support for something that Britain could play a unique part in helping to build.
Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) (Con)
Given the capability gap that we have had to accept under the strategic defence and security review until we have the carrier strike force and the Type 26 combat ship, and given that on Thursday US journalists were pressing State Department officials to explain why the US was not able to match British evacuation efforts, is the Prime Minister confident that in future years we can rely on the United States to deliver for us and for others we wish to help?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend asks a good question about the capability gap. I argue, however, that recent events demonstrate the importance of flexibility and the necessity of having a good range of military assets and transport aircraft—as we will have with the future A400M—and large numbers of highly trained special forces, of which we will have more under the defence review. It has also demonstrated that it is necessary to have—as we do in Malta, Sicily and elsewhere—basing rights and the right to overfly. People will put the question about carriers, of course, but although the US has about 12 aircraft carriers, not one of them is currently in the Mediterranean, so it seems to me that flexibility of forces and the ability to get people in and out quickly is more important than obsessing about particular platforms.
Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)
I thank the Prime Minister for his statement and the reconvening of the UN Human Rights Council, which I hope will take centre stage in future developments. However, is he not concerned that in every country in the region—Tunisia, Bahrain, Egypt and Yemen—the security forces that have used weapons against civilians, and that have killed young people demonstrating for their rights and jobs, are using equipment made in Britain, Europe or the United States? We must look to such relationships and our sales of arms that have been used to carry out the carnage against wholly innocent civilians trying to demand what we want for ourselves.
The Prime Minister
I shall make two points to the hon. Gentleman. First, we have revoked a large number of licences, including to some of the countries that he has mentioned. I also argue the broader point that those countries that have met those aspirations with reform have a chance of success and progress, whereas those that have met them with repression are finding that that is not the answer. I think that we are going to see that that is the case right across the region.
Greg Hands (Chelsea and Fulham) (Con)
Returning to the question asked by the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) on close relations with Colonel Gaddafi’s son Saif, was the Prime Minister as surprised as I was to learn that Saif Gaddafi also had many meetings with the previous Business Secretary, Lord Mandelson, and described the former Prime Minister, Tony Blair, as a “close personal friend”?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend makes a good point that highlights the issues that I raised earlier. It was right to restore relations with Libya, but parameters and judgment needed to be brought to bear as well.
Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab)
In congratulating the right hon. Gentleman on the vote cast by the United Kingdom at the Security Council on Israeli settlements, may I ask whether he, like Chancellor Merkel, received a reproachful telephone call from Netanyahu, and if so did he, like Chancellor Merkel, reply that he—Netanyahu—is the principal obstacle to negotiations and that he must get on and negotiate?
The Prime Minister
As it happens, I did not, on this occasion, get a reproachful phone call from Prime Minister Netanyahu. But if I had done, I am, for once, in full agreement with the right hon. Gentleman, and I am sure that I would have responded robustly in the way that he has suggested.
Mr Andrew Tyrie (Chichester) (Con)
Does the Prime Minister think that the relative inability of the west to offer moral leadership to those seeking greater freedom in the middle east owes something to the disastrous policy of regime change by military means, implemented by President Bush and Prime Minister Blair eight years ago?
The Prime Minister
I take issue with my hon. Friend, in a way. I think we should stop arguing about some of these points in the past and try to build a stronger argument about what our engagement with this region should be like. Where I agree with him is that what I call the rather naive, neo-con view that it is possible to impose democracy at the end of the barrel of a gun is not right, but it is also wrong to take a hardcore, realist approach of just saying, “We have to deal with what is there.” We should learn from our own history and recognise that it is about putting in place the building blocks of democracy and having elections, yes, but also the rule of law, an independent judiciary, a proper place for the military in society, free association and free speech, many of which are rights that we had years before the vote. That is what we should be focusing on in our relations with these countries, so that we can help to point them to a better future.
Mr Frank Roy (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Throughout most of last week, hundreds of UK citizens in Libya felt in grave danger and, frankly, abandoned by this Government. Will the Prime Minister commission an independent inquiry into the shambolic way in which the Foreign Office undertook its duties in the early part of last week?
The Prime Minister
The hon. Gentleman is being slightly unfair. These are not easy things to get right, and we did well in the case of Egypt. Clearly, there are lessons to learn here, and I do not think it a complicated process. There are a number of steps, as I have said, regarding defence assets, redundancy and the use of scheduled flights, and I think we can learn those lessons relatively quickly. I think it a relatively straightforward and easy thing to do.
Mrs Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con)
Given that Colonel Gaddafi’s recent behaviour is no surprise to anyone, does the Prime Minister understand that the vast majority of people in Britain share his anger that the previous Government, in collusion with the Scottish Government, did all they could to secure the release of al-Megrahi, the Lockerbie bomber?
The Prime Minister
I have put this on the record many times: I think it was wrong to try and facilitate that release. The British Government should have taken a clear view that that was the largest mass murder in British history and that that person should die behind bars. It would have been a clear view; it would have been the right view; and it would have taken the country with them.
Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab)
Notwithstanding the brave efforts of our military and consular staff at the weekend, if lessons are to be learned for the future, may I share the experience of my constituent, Mr James Coyle, who was released just last night, and his family? His family and I spent most of last week trying to contact the Foreign Office. Despite numerous phone calls, we were unsuccessful, and when we did get through we were asked the same questions over and over again, despite giving the details over the telephone and by e-mail. The family were repeatedly asked whether James could make his way to Tripoli, despite it being pointed out that he could not because the camp had been looted. If lessons are to be learned and there is going to be an inquiry, will the Prime Minister ensure that the victims in Libya will be included in that inquiry?
The Prime Minister
The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt), is listening to this, and I am sure that he will be able to take up this individual case. I have visited the crisis centre at the Foreign Office and seen the very hard work going on there. Obviously, the Foreign Office was coping not only with the crisis in Libya but with the earthquake in New Zealand, and it was taking calls on both of those. I have to say I have been impressed by its work. I am sure that if the hon. Gentleman has a constituency case, the Foreign Office will take it up for him and see what lessons can be learned.
Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con)
Earlier, the Prime Minister mentioned the African Union, of which Colonel Gaddafi is a former chairman. Does the Prime Minister share my hope that the African Union will in future exclude such dictators from its membership?
The Prime Minister
What I can say to my hon. Friend is that we are on the case with this issue. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for International Development will be talking to a number of African leaders about what we believe the African Union could do to step up to the plate and make a point about the unacceptable behaviour of Colonel Gaddafi.
Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab)
The Prime Minister put it graphically when he said that hopes and aspirations that have been smothered for decades are stirring. If we are to build a new relationship with the middle east based on mutual respect, do we not need to get rid of our reputation for double standards? That means not only standing up to dictators, but saying very plainly that the occupation of one country by another is wrong and has to end.
The Prime Minister
I agree with the hon. Gentleman. In the case of Israel and Palestine, we should make it very clear that the settlements are wrong—the vote we cast in the UN Security Council was absolutely clear about that. We should also be clear that we want to see the advance of civil society, open societies, pluralism, democracy and freedom in countries across north Africa and the middle east. What I have found from talking to leaders in Kuwait, Qatar, Oman and elsewhere is that that is not a message that friends in the Gulf reject; it is one that they accept and see the sense of. As an old friend, this country should be pushing to explain how important this is. That should be done with respect, and we should recognise that different countries have different rates of development and different traditions, but our belief in democracy and open societies should not be negotiable.
Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)
In light of Colonel Gaddafi’s 40 years of violence abroad and tyranny at home, does the Prime Minister agree that it was morally and ethically wrong for the previous Government to sign those defence contracts? Will he ensure that those contracts are now fully put into the public domain, so that they can be fully scrutinised?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend makes a good point. When you look at the so-called deal in the desert, you find a degree of credulity on the part of the previous Government, who signed it. I am very happy to look at whether the actual documents that were signed can be put into the public domain, so that people can see the mistakes that were made.
Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op)
Is not the dilemma in Libya that left to its own resources the least likely option is that the Gaddafi regime will be brought to a quick end? Gaddafi is already enforcing his position in Tripoli, the capital, and, as we have heard from hon. Members on both sides, there are real worries that there will be not only a humanitarian disaster, but a human rights disaster. The Prime Minister has indicated some areas that he is examining, but will he redouble efforts not only nationally, but internationally to ensure that we do not stand by and see that happen?
The Prime Minister
I agree that we should not just stand by—if Colonel Gaddafi uses military force against his own people, the world cannot stand by. That is why we should be looking at a no-fly zone; that is why urgent discussions need to take place in NATO; and that is why we need America to be fully engaged in looking at what needs to be done. What we cannot know from here is exactly what will happen next. If someone had predicted a few years ago that half of Libya would be under the control of rebel groups, people would have said, “That is impossible with the security apparatus that Colonel Gaddafi has at his disposal.” What is exciting is that everybody thought that this murderous dictator was fully in control of his country, but part of his country has been knocked over so quickly.
Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
I thank the Prime Minister for the personal interest that the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, the hon. Member for North East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt), has taken in the case of an oil worker from Thirsk, who is now being brought home. We are very grateful for that. I also thank those on board HMS Cumberland. A number of years ago, the ship hosted three lady MPs while it was patrolling the Gulf to prevent Iran from breaking oil sanctions. The Prime Minister is aware of the real threat of an oil price hike in this country resulting from the constant ongoing instability in the middle east. Will he put our minds at rest by telling us that the Government will turn their attention to the implications for this country of the instability?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend is trying to get me to prejudge what my right hon. Friend the Chancellor might say in the Budget. Obviously I cannot do that, but she makes a number of good points about how we have helped to rescue people from the desert. May I just say, again, how brave the pilots and crews of those aircraft were, because this extremely difficult mission involved a number of stops in desert areas and they were very uncertain as to what exactly they would find? All credit to them for the incredible work that they have done.
Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op)
Will the Prime Minister tell the House what reports he has received about the killing of people in Tripoli who were celebrating after listening to inaccurate reports from authoritative sources that Gaddafi had fled to Venezuela?
The Prime Minister
I have not seen those specific reports, but clearly a number of people have been murdered in Tripoli, in Benghazi and in the rest of the country by that murderous regime. The responsibility for that lies squarely with Colonel Gaddafi and the people who run that regime, not with anybody else.
James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) (Con)
On the broader point about the changes that we are seeing in the middle east, does the Prime Minister agree that it is in Britain’s national interest to pursue a soft power policy, along the lines that he has described, to promote democracy and support opposition movements where people are moving towards a desire for greater democracy in these countries?
The Prime Minister
I very much agree with that. In terms of the soft power to which my hon. Friend refers, this country has incredible assets, be it the British Council, the BBC or political relations. All those things should be brought to bear and we should recognise, as I said in my statement, that building democracy is painstaking and patient work. Alongside hard power, those soft power assets can sometimes achieve the greatest success.
Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op)
Will the Prime Minister explain the procedure used to trigger a meeting of the Cobra emergency response committee? There has obviously been some criticism of the inexplicable delay in that meeting. Was it because the Deputy Prime Minister would have had a role in it, if he had not been out of the country? Will the Prime Minister review this matter and publish that review?
The Prime Minister
Typically, as the hon. Gentleman will know, Cobra is triggered by the Prime Minister. Let me make it clear that on Monday the Foreign Office crisis centre was established with Ministry of Defence people embedded in it, so the idea that two Departments of State were not co-operating is wrong. Cobra is normally exercised by the Prime Minister, and it meets regularly at official level as well, as the hon. Gentleman will know, in relation to a range of different activities that we have to deal with. It has been in activity all over the weekend.
Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con)
Can the Prime Minister say whether the military agreement signed by the previous Government was used to train special forces in Libya and whether those special forces, in what is left of Gaddafi’s regime, have been used against people?
The Prime Minister
I am not aware of that, but I think that the full terms of the deal in the desert need to be made clear. Then, those Opposition Members who are calling for the word “sorry” might like to issue it themselves.
Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)
Further to the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana Berger), does the Prime Minister accept that members of his Government need to be very careful before making statements about dictators fleeing their countries, as we have seen murder on the streets of Tripoli as a result of the Foreign Secretary’s foolish remarks?
The Prime Minister
Let us be clear: murder on the streets of Tripoli is the responsibility of Colonel Gaddafi and his murderous regime. For Opposition Members to try to make some fake political point on this basis is truly pathetic.
David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con)
I welcome the Prime Minister’s statement, the successful rescue missions and the leadership that UK forces are showing in co-ordinating activities on the ground in Libya. Given the experiences in Libya and Egypt, will he tell the House what steps are being taken to develop contingency plans to protect British nationals in Oman and Yemen, if the situation in those countries escalates?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend makes a very good point. We are doing extensive work looking at the number of British nationals right across the region and preparing for all eventualities. Obviously, we do not want to do anything to encourage those sorts of issues, but contingency plans and thinking are going on to ensure that those issues are covered.
John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op)
We share the Prime Minister’s objective of having a successful and stringently controlled defence export sector in the UK, but, on reflection, would he not have made better progress toward that objective if he had reconsidered the timing of his trade mission last week?
The Prime Minister
I disagree—I would like to make people happy, but I do not agree. It was a long-arranged trip, and it was worth while going to Cairo and being one of the first people to make it to Tahrir square and to meet some of those protesters. Also, going to Kuwait on the 20th anniversary of its liberation and being able to make a speech in the Kuwait Parliament about the importance of spreading democracy and freedom was extremely important. On who accompanied me on the trip, I had a little check and in November 2008 the former Prime Minister took many of the same companies, including British Aerospace, which plays quite a big role in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency. Companies such as Rolls-Royce and British Aerospace are large employers in this country, and it is important that we help those businesses and make sure that they go on employing people, not least in his constituency.
Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con)
I congratulate the Prime Minister and the Chancellor on their quick action to prevent moneys being exported and on the action at the United Nations. Will the Prime Minister confirm that the Government will take action, and will press the UN to take action, against any country that breaks the UN resolution?
The Prime Minister
I thank my hon. Friend for his question. The most important thing is to encourage countries to take action in respect of the UN resolution and to put in place its terms as quickly as possible. We held a Privy Council meeting yesterday to allow us to pass legislation putting in place the asset freeze. We should encourage others to take that step before considering the next step of widening the net and putting even more pressure on the regime.
Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab)
Before the Prime Minister takes too many cosy trips down memory lane with Sir John Major, perhaps he will recall that the arms that were exported to Iraq under the last Tory Administration were never paid for. As part of his review, will he look into the role that the Export Credits Guarantee Department played in providing cover for arms sales to unstable countries?
The Prime Minister
The trip down memory lane that I was taking was to Kuwait with John Major to celebrate the fact that 20 years ago this country played a part in an international coalition to bring about its liberation. Kuwait is not a democracy like us, but it has a Parliament and is taking steps to greater openness. Should we have a close relationship with such countries? I say yes, we should.
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
I, like most Government Members, thought it immensely impressive that the Prime Minister was in the middle east so early. Will the Prime Minister again pay credit to our extremely brave RAF personnel who carried out the two desert rescues, and will he point out in particular that 95 British nationals were rescued, as well as 270 foreign nationals? Does that not show that we were leading in the evacuation of non-Libyan nationals?
The Prime Minister
I know that my hon. Friend has an interest in this, because his son is a Chinook pilot and has served bravely in Afghanistan and elsewhere. What the British military has done is outstanding—the Royal Navy in Benghazi and the Air Force in the desert mission. My hon. Friend is right. More than 32 nationalities have been rescued and brought back by the British. There is also co-ordination by the British going on in Malta and our AWACS aircraft are providing much of the air traffic control. Once again, the whole country, with our armed forces, can be very proud.
Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab)
The Deputy Prime Minister once said that the Prime Minister is amazingly flaky on foreign affairs. Flaky or not, does the Prime Minister accept at least that he showed poor judgment last week in prioritising arms sales to the region over helping the Libyan people and our citizens in Libya?
The Prime Minister
That question was the definition of flaky. I went to Egypt, an important country whose democratic transition we should be encouraging. I also made a speech in the Kuwaiti Parliament about democracy. Yes, links with middle eastern countries are important. One of the reasons for going was that country after country had said to us that they were ignored, downplayed and downgraded by the previous Government. Making sure that we are building those relationships is important, and the hon. Gentleman’s judgment on this one is wrong.
Rory Stewart (Penrith and The Border) (Con)
Libya is a wake-up call that Afghanistan is not the only country that matters in the world. It shows that we have not had a balanced, moderate foreign policy. Does the Prime Minister agree that this is a reason to accelerate the draw-down of resources from Afghanistan, so that we can meet the many crises in the world, of which Libya is one, that will confront us over the next decade?
The Prime Minister
I do not think this is an either/or. I know that my hon. Friend has considerable experience in Afghanistan, but I think that the draw-down should take place. We have set an end date, but between now and then it should be done with our NATO and international security assistance force partners to make sure that we are doing on the ground what we need to do, so that that country can have some chance of controlling its own affairs and its own destiny and providing its own security. But our aim in Afghanistan is no more than that the Afghans themselves should be able to secure that country, so that it does not require the presence of foreign troops. It is as simple as that.
Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)
The past few weeks have shown that not everything in the middle east is necessarily contingent upon the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. As we move forward, does my right hon. Friend agree that whatever democracies emerge in north Africa and the middle east, it is important to ensure that they recognise the legitimacy of Israel, function as democracies and act as a counterbalance to Iran?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend makes a good point, although we should not be pessimistic about the effect of greater democratisation in the middle east and the Arab world on the prospects for Arab-Israeli peace. Some of the more autocratic regimes use the Arab-Israel conflict as a way of keeping their own populations happy without having democracy. So, yes, the road between here and there may be quite bumpy and difficult, but in the end, deals between democracies will be stronger.
Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)
My constituent, Richard Foscolo, was stranded in the desert in Ghani in an oilfield. He returned home last Friday. Initial contact with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office was naturally difficult, partly because of the circumstances on the ground, but the family feel particularly let down by his employers, OPS International, which did not make all the information available to the embassy or to the FCO, so that co-ordination could be brought about effectively. What action will the Prime Minister take to ensure that information is shared as efficiently as possible?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend makes a good point, and there are lessons to learn about how information is shared. It is a difficult and ever-changing picture. Let us just look at the numbers of people who we think are in Libya and who want to come out. Even in the age of the internet, the mobile phone, computer databases and the rest of it, getting a real grip of those numbers, as I believe we now have—we will go on publishing more granular information about that—is difficult, but companies working with the Government is clearly an essential part of that process.
Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)
Does the Prime Minister agree that much of what we have heard from the Opposition over the past week, at the height of the Libyan crisis, has been nothing short of naked political opportunism, and that the deputy leader of the Labour party should apologise for comments that she posted on Twitter, when she said:
“Rapid deployment force not rapid”—
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
It is obviously right to send assistance to tackle the growing refugee problem on Libya’s borders, but are efforts being co-ordinated with EU partners and others to prevent the turmoil throughout north Africa becoming an immigration problem for Italy and southern Europe?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend makes a very good point, and there are urgent conversations under way about that. At the moment, the pressure is on the borders between Libya and Tunisia and Libya and Egypt, and a lot of it involves migrant workers from Tunisia and Egypt returning to their countries, but, as I said in my statement, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for International Development will visit the region soon. We are sending out technical experts to advise us on what is necessary, but I think that there is a real job for the European Union to work together and make sure that the situation does not turn, as my hon. Friend suggests, into a refugee crisis.
Mr Speaker
I must thank the Prime Minister and all colleagues, whose succinctness meant that no fewer than 53 Back Benchers were able to be called to ask questions on the statement. I am very grateful to colleagues.
Oral Answers to Questions
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Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)
Q1. If he will list his official engagements for Wednesday 9 February.
The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron)
I am sure the whole House will wish to join me in paying tribute to Ranger David Dalzell, from 1st Battalion the Royal Irish Regiment, who died on Friday, and Warrant Officer Class 2 Colin Beckett, from 3rd Battalion the Parachute Regiment, who died on Saturday. They were both highly respected soldiers who served with the utmost dedication and pride. They will be hugely missed by their colleagues and by all who knew them, and our deepest sympathy should be with their family and their friends.
This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others, and in addition to my duties in the House, I shall have further such meetings later today.
Roger Williams
I know that the whole House will want to join the Prime Minister in his expression of sympathy for the recent loss of life in Afghanistan. Training establishments in my constituency, such as the Sennybridge ranges and the infantry battle school, have built up very good relationships between the community and the military, which are ongoing and strengthening.
UK universities have a worldwide reputation for teaching and research. Many foreign students wish to attend those universities, and they are important not least because of the £5 billion that they contribute to the national economy. Many universities are very concerned that Government proposals—
Roger Williams
Can the Prime Minister give an assurance to the universities that any proposals will not discourage the recruitment of genuine students?
The Prime Minister
The hon. Gentleman makes an extremely good point. Our universities in this country are world-class, and we want students from around the world to come to those universities to study, not just for the contribution that they bring financially but because of the links they will make between our country and their country in years to come.
I can tell the hon. Gentleman that we are not currently looking at limits on tier 4 immigration visas, but I make this point to anybody who is concerned about the issue: I profoundly believe that we can have excellent universities, open to foreign students, and control immigration at the same time. The reason I am so confident is that last year there were about 91,000 students who did not go to the trusted universities but went to other colleges—some 600 colleges. I am sure that the extent of the abuse is very great, and if we crack down on that abuse we can make sure that there are many students coming to our excellent universities.
Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab)
I join the Prime Minister in paying tribute to Ranger David Dalzell, from 1st Battalion the Royal Irish Regiment, and Warrant Officer Class 2 Colin Beckett, from 3rd Battalion the Parachute Regiment. We should all remember both men for their heroism, their dedication and their sacrifice, and our deep condolences go to their family and friends.
Can the Prime Minister tell us, how is his big society going?
The Prime Minister
I actually believe that almost every single Member of this House of Commons backs what we are talking about. Let me just explain what it is. The idea of devolving power to local authorities, and beyond to communities, was in his manifesto, in my manifesto and indeed in the Liberal Democrat manifesto. I think we all support it. The idea of opening up public services to more local involvement and control, again, was in all our manifestos, and we support it. I believe that probably every single Member of the House spends time in their own constituency encouraging volunteering and philanthropic giving, and wants people to play a bigger part in a bigger society. I think the whole House is united on that.
Edward Miliband
We all support thriving communities, which is why there is such concern from charities up and down the country. Why does the Prime Minister not listen to people who know a lot about volunteering, such as Dame Elisabeth Hoodless, the chief executive of Community Service Volunteers, which is the largest volunteering charity in Britain, who says that his policies are “destroying the volunteer army”?
The Prime Minister
Obviously, I do not agree with what Dame Elisabeth Hoodless has said, but I want to work with all those involved in charities and voluntary bodies to encourage them to play a strong part. We are putting £470 million into charities and voluntary bodies across this spending review. We are also establishing a £100 million transition fund to help charities that are affected by cuts. I can today tell the right hon. Gentleman for the first time that because of our deal with the banks the big society bank—[Interruption.] Wait for it. The big society bank will be taking £200 million from Britain’s banks to put into the voluntary sector. Labour would have got nothing out of the banks, so I am sure that he will want to stand up and welcome that.
Edward Miliband
The Prime Minister does not mention that he is cutting billions of pounds from voluntary sector organisations up and down this country. Let us take an example of where parents volunteer and of a crucial part of local communities: Sure Start. Before the election, he promised to protect Sure Start, but in fact he decided to cut funding by 9%, and the Daycare Trust says that 250 Sure Starts are expected to close. Can he tell us how that is helping the big society?
The Prime Minister
First, let me just say this: Labour put money into the banks; we are taking money out of the banks and putting it into the big society.
The right hon. Gentleman asks specifically about Sure Start and the Daycare Trust. I must say that, not for the first time, he has not done his homework, because the chief executive of the Daycare Trust, Anand Shukla, said:
“The Government has allocated sufficient funding for the existing network of Sure Start Children’s Centres to be maintained”—[Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. These exchanges are excessively rowdy—[Interruption.] Order. Again, I must ask Members on both sides to consider what the public think of this sort of behaviour. The Prime Minister—[Interruption.] Order. Questions will be heard, and the answers from the Prime Minister will be heard.
The Prime Minister
I look forward to the answer to this one. We have maintained the money for Sure Start and the money for children’s centres, and the head of the Daycare Trust backs our view rather than the right hon. Gentleman’s.
Edward Miliband
No, the Prime Minister has cut the funding and we will judge him on whether Sure Start centres close over the coming months.
The problem with the Prime Minister’s argument on local government, and with the nonsense peddled by the local government Secretary, is that they say they can make 28% cuts in local government funding and not affect any front-line services. What does the Conservative head of the Local Government Association say about that? She says that the local government Secretary is “detached from reality”.
Let us ask about libraries. Four libraries are threatened with closure in the Prime Minister’s own constituency, and hundreds are threatened up and down the country. Can he explain to people who are concerned about that how he expects people to volunteer at the local library if it is being shut down?
The Prime Minister
Let me just deal with the right hon. Gentleman’s question on Sure Start. I know he got that wrong—[Interruption.] We will come to libraries in a minute. On Sure Start, the budget is going from £2.212 million to £2.297 million. That budget is going up. That is what is happening.
The right hon. Gentleman gave a particular example, so let me put one to him—[Interruption.] We will come to libraries. Let me take the case of one council: Liverpool council. The cuts will mean that, by 2013, Liverpool council will go back to the level of grant it received in 2009, so what we are seeing is politically motivated moves by Labour councils. I remember the times when Labour leaders stood up to Labour councils that made those decisions.
On the issue of libraries, because we are taking council spending back generally to the level of the grants in 2007, I see no reason why they should not continue with a very well funded network of libraries. We all know a truth about libraries, which is that those which will succeed are those that wake up to the world of new technology, the internet and everything else, and investment goes in. That is what needs to happen. Should councils look at community solutions for other libraries? I believe that they should. Instead of sniping and jumping on every bandwagon, the right hon. Gentleman should get behind the big society.
Edward Miliband
Only this Prime Minister could blame the libraries for closing. He needs to understand why his big society idea is in such trouble. It is because libraries, Sure Start centres, citizens advice bureaux, community centres—including in Hammersmith and Fulham, his flagship council—which are at the heart of our society, are threatened with closure up and down the country. If it is going so well, why does his big society adviser, Paul Twivy, say that this idea
“is increasingly loathed by the public”?
The Prime Minister
We were all waiting for the right hon. Gentleman’s big idea, and we have now got it. Labour has published its fresh new ideas. The tree was chopped down, but there is nothing in the book. We all knew that we wanted a blank page, but no one thought that he would publish a whole book of them. What are his plans? What are his great ideas? He has not got a single idea for making this country a better place. Instead of sniping, why does he not join in and work out how we could build a bigger society in our country?
Edward Miliband
The Prime Minister should not get so angry: it will cloud his judgment. He is not the first Prime Minister I have said that to—[Hon. Members: “Oh.”] Did not the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) get to the truth behind the Prime Minister’s motives? The right hon. Gentleman said:
“If you talk about the small state, people think you’re Attila the Hun. If you talk about the big society, people think you’re Mother Teresa.”
After what the Prime Minister is doing to charities up and down this country, no one will think he is Mother Teresa. Is not the truth being exposed day by day—he is cutting too far and too fast, and society is becoming smaller and weaker, not bigger and stronger?
The Prime Minister
The problem with everything that the right hon. Gentleman has said is that all the cuts that we are having to make are because of the complete mess that he made of the economy. That is the background for this whole debate. We now know what they think of the inheritance that they left us, because the shadow Chancellor has said:
“I don’t think we had a structural deficit at all in that period”.
The Institute for Fiscal Studies says:
“By the eve of the financial crisis…the UK”
had
“one of the largest structural budget deficits in the developed world.”
May I advise the right hon. Gentleman that the first stage of recovery is to recognise that you have a problem? The truth about the Opposition is that they doubled the debt, let the banks rip and bankrupted the country, and their only message is, “Let us do it all over again.”
Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con)
Q2. My constituent, Rifleman Jack Otter, lost both his legs and an arm while serving in Afghanistan more than 15 months ago. I am sure that the Prime Minister and the whole House understand the debt that we owe Jack and others like him who have served our country. With the number of British soldiers losing limbs having increased by 40% from 2009 to 2010, does the Prime Minister agree that it is important that we find access to new resources to ensure that patients and staff at Headley Court can continue their excellent standard of work, which is sadly coming under greater pressure?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend makes an incredibly important point about what is happening in terms of the number of people returning as single, double and sometimes treble amputees, and about what we as a society must do to support them. I have visited Headley Court, and I know that many others have done so. It is an absolutely magnificent facility. A new ward opened in September last year and it now has a capacity of 111 trauma beds. Because of what Help for Heroes has done, there is a 25-metre swimming pool, a Battle of Britain gym with a sprung sports floor and a centre for mental and cognitive health. But we must go on ensuring that that magnificent facility is continually improved and that we do everything for our brave returning soldiers.
Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab)
Just over a year ago the Prime Minister visited a maternity unit and found our midwives to be overworked. As a result, he promised that, with a Conservative Government, he would bring about 3,000 more midwives. A year on, could he tell us how he has gone about that?
The Prime Minister
The first thing that we have done is ignored the advice from Labour and increased the NHS budget. We would not be making progress on any of these health issues if we had followed the advice of the hon. Lady’s party and cut the NHS. We do need more midwives and more resources; we are making sure that those are going in.
Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con)
Q3. Will the Prime Minister reflect on the decision taken in the House of Lords on Monday, which was supported by many senior Conservatives and Cross Benchers, to enable Parliament to have a review in the event of fewer than four in 10 people participating in the AV referendum? Will my right hon. Friend consider this compromise to be a reasonable one and to be consistent with the coalition agreement? Failing that, will he trust his own Back Benchers in a free vote to make their own judgments?
The Prime Minister
I have to say to my hon. Friend that we have not had thresholds in previous referendums, but I do not think that he should be so down on this. I am sure—[Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. The Prime Minister’s answer must be heard. All this noise is—[Interruption.] Order. All this noise is damaging colleagues’ chance of getting in.
The Prime Minister
I am sure that my hon. Friend will work with me to get the turnout up, particularly for the no vote.
Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab)
Last week a cross-party Welsh Affairs Committee report criticised the Government’s proposal to close Newport passport office, which will see the loss of 250 jobs, be devastating for the economy of Newport and does not appear to be saving any money. Will the Prime Minister agree to meet me and my hon. Friend the Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn), so that we can put the case to him personally?
The Prime Minister
I am looking at this decision. It is an important decision, and I know that there is great work being done in reflecting on what jobs can be saved in Newport and Liverpool, where the two competing offices are. I am very happy to arrange for the hon. Lady to meet my hon. Friend the Minister for Immigration, because he is the one who will have to make the decision, so that he can hear from her and the hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) directly.
Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
Q4. What assessment he has made of the effect of coalition politics on the future of the UK’s nuclear deterrent.
The Prime Minister
We have made it clear that we are committed to maintaining a nuclear deterrent based on Trident. That is why it was excluded from the strategic defence and security review, and why we commissioned a separate value-for-money study. The replacement of Trident is going ahead, and initial gate will be passed soon. As set out in the coalition agreement, the Liberal Democrats will continue to make the case for alternatives.
Dr Lewis
When the coalition was being formed, my right hon. Friend promised a meeting of all Conservative MPs that the Liberal Democrats would support the replacement of Trident. As we know, the key decision has been postponed until after the next election, and the Liberal Democrats, from their president downwards, have been boasting that this was their achievement. Will the Prime Minister give a pledge to this House and to the country that in the event of another hung Parliament, if the Liberal Democrats demand as the price for another coalition the scrapping of Trident, he will refuse to pay that price?
The Prime Minister
First of all, let me make this point. The replacement of Trident is going ahead. The investment is going in; the initial gate will soon be passed. The reason for the delay is that we had a value-for-money study because we desperately need to save some money in the Ministry of Defence, so that we can invest in front-line capability. That is the argument there. In terms of the future, all I can say to the hon. Gentleman is that I am in favour of a full replacement for Trident, a continuous at-sea deterrent and making sure that we keep our guard up. That is Conservative policy; it will remain Conservative policy as long as I am the leader of this party.
John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op)
But with due respect, the Prime Minister chose to break his word on the education maintenance allowance and matters such as reorganising the NHS, so why will this pledge prove any different?
The Prime Minister
I have visited the hon. Gentleman’s constituency and I know how important this issue is for him. I profoundly believe that we should maintain our independent nuclear deterrent. I have looked at all the alternatives over the years, and I am completely convinced that we need a submarine-based alternative—a full replacement for Trident—in order to guarantee the ultimate insurance policy for this country. That is my view, the view of my party and the view of most of the people sitting opposite me. I believe that there is all-party support for the move.
Mr James Clappison (Hertsmere) (Con)
Q5. Lord Carlile, the official reviewer of terrorism legislation, said last week that this country had become a “safe haven” for terrorists. Will my right hon. Friend give the House an assurance that this Government will do all that they possibly can to deport foreign nationals who are suspected of involvement in terrorism?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend is absolutely right to raise this point. I have been concerned for many years that we have not been able to deport people we suspect of plotting against us in the way that we should be able to. Lord Carlile has spoken and written about this extremely clearly. We have negotiated return agreements—so-called deportation with assurance agreements—with Algeria, Jordan, Ethiopia, Libya and Lebanon, but I want us to negotiate many, many more. In the end, we must do whatever is necessary to ensure that we can keep this country safe.
David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP)
Q6. Northern Ireland is still being held back by some dissident republican groups. To deal with this, the Chief Constable has asked for up-front access to the reserve allocation over the next four years. Does the Prime Minister agree that, if the threat is not dealt with, it will quickly spread to the rest of the United Kingdom? Will he grant the Chief Constable’s request?
The Prime Minister
I have met the Chief Constable on several occasions since becoming Prime Minister. He came to the meeting of the National Security Council at which we discussed the security situation in Northern Ireland. We will do what is necessary to ensure that security, the police and everything else are properly funded. I think that it is right, now that these issues are devolved, that there is greater decision making and greater efforts to put money into the front line in Northern Ireland itself, but of course we always stand ready to help where necessary.
Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)
The Prime Minister might recall visiting the maternity department at Fairfield hospital in Bury when he was Leader of the Opposition. Last week, despite our pledge to keep it open and despite the very useful new criteria issued by the Department of Health, the NHS in the north-west decided to continue with the closure decision that was taken by Labour. Will my right hon. Friend discuss with the Secretary of State for Health the ways in which we can keep our pledge on this matter?
The Prime Minister
I am very happy to discuss that issue with my hon. Friend and with the Secretary of State for Health. As he knows, we have introduced far tougher steps before these decisions can be taken, to ensure that local needs, and the views of patients and local GPs, are respected. The whole point about the new system, which is GP-led, is that hospitals will thrive when local people use and value them.
David Cairns (Inverclyde) (Lab)
Q7. In the past few weeks, the Government have rebranded antisocial behaviour orders as criminal behaviour orders, renamed control orders as terrorism prevention and investigation measures, and rechristened curfews as overnight residence requirements. Does the Prime Minister not realise that no amount of rebranding will disguise the fact that a Government preparing to cut police numbers by 10,000 will be seen as nothing other than weak on antisocial behaviour, reckless on terrorism and soft on crime?
The Prime Minister
I notice that the Labour party is going a long way to rebranding new Labour as old and irresponsible Labour, and I have to say that the project is going very well.
David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend believe that the quality of the debate on the future of Britain’s debt burden is enhanced by the deficit denial on the Opposition Front Bench?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend makes an extremely good point. The Opposition were beginning to understand that they had left us with a debt burden, and beginning to own up to it, but now, with the new shadow Chancellor, they are in complete and utter deficit denial. They have not even taken the first step to being a responsible Opposition.
Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP)
Q8. Around the country, driving test centres such as those at Arbroath and Forfar in my constituency are being closed without any consultation whatever with the local community or instructors. Surely that is the complete opposite of localism. Will the Prime Minister lean over and instruct his Transport Secretary to put a stop to such closures until there has been at the very least consultation with the local community and consideration of alternative ways to provide the service?
The Prime Minister
I understand the importance of these facilities in rural communities. As I understand it, the chief executive of the Driving Standards Agency has said that she will explore further how to continue to offer facilities in these locations. I will ask the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, my hon. Friend the Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mike Penning), to contact the hon. Gentleman to discuss this important issue with him.
Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con)
Last week, there was a memorial service in Gloucester cathedral for Tom Walkinshaw, a constituent of the Prime Minister and a legend in my city for all he did to revive Gloucester rugby. Does the Prime Minister agree that Tom, and many others like him who have invested so much of their own money in our great sports, have done a lot to increase self-belief and pride in our cities?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend speaks very well of someone who lived in my constituency and invested not only in rugby, but in Formula 1, which has been an absolutely world-beating industry for our country. We should celebrate that, particularly in my region, where so many people are employed in this incredibly high-tech endeavour.
Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab)
Q9. Does not the Prime Minister’s plan to sell off the forests show once again that he knows the price of everything but the value of nothing?
The Prime Minister
Let me say to the hon. Lady and to all hon. Members who I know are very interested in this subject that we are having a consultation; we are listening to people’s views. Let me make a couple of things clear. First, we will not do what happened under the last Government, which was the sale of forests with absolutely no guarantees of access. [Interruption.] Yes, that is exactly what they did. We also have a good opportunity to bust a few myths about this situation. The idea that all Forestry Commission forests are open to the public and do not charge is simply not true. Many forests, such as the New Forest, are not owned by the Forestry Commission and have much better access, no parking charges and very good records on habitat. While we are having this consultation, we should bust some of the myths that have been put around about this idea.
Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)
The latest US Department of Defence report to Congress states that the Taliban’s strength lies in the Afghan people’s perception that the Taliban will ultimately be victorious. Is it not now time for fresh thinking on Afghanistan, which must include getting the Americans to open talks with the Taliban, because as we proved in Northern Ireland it is possible to talk and fight at the same time?
The Prime Minister
I would say two things to my hon. Friend. First, of course there has to be a political process; almost every insurgency in history has ended through some combination of military might and a political process. I accept that, but where I disagree with my hon. Friend is that I think that this year the Taliban will see that there is no meaningful removal of US forces from Afghanistan. This will be another year in which the Taliban are going to be heavily defeated on the battlefield, which will make a political solution more rather than less likely.
Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab)
Q10. Why is the Prime Minister cutting benefits and pensions for the armed forces? Does he intend to honour the agreement with our armed forces?
The Prime Minister
I do not accept what the hon. Gentleman says. Indeed, the armed forces are excluded from John Hutton’s report, which is looking at increasing people’s contributions. Let me remind the hon. Gentleman of what we have done for the armed forces. We said we would double the operational allowance for people serving in Afghanistan, and we have done that. We said that we would introduce a pupil premium, for the first time, for soldiers’ children who go to our schools, and we have done that. We have said that leave for the armed forces should start when they land back in the UK, not when they leave Afghanistan, and we are doing that. This Government are very pro our armed services and their families, and want to ensure that we give them a good deal.
Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD)
The whole House will regret the regular reports of tragic knife-crime incidents in this country. Does the Prime Minister agree that anyone who takes to the streets carrying a knife does so with the capability to commit grievous bodily harm or murder? What sort of punishment does he feel that these people should receive?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend makes an extremely important point. We must ensure that people who carry knives know that the result of that is likely to be a prison sentence. We must get tougher on what happens in terms of knife crime. Under the last Government, knife crime after knife crime was met with a caution rather than with proper punishment in courts. Labour Members can talk about knife crime as much as they like, but they were as soft as anything on it.
Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab)
Q11. The provisions of the Health and Social Care Bill were not costed before or after the election. Given the extension of commercial providers, is it the case that the NHS is not safe in the hands of the Government, but that the hands are in the safe of the NHS?
The Prime Minister
On the NHS, I can do no better than quote the shadow Secretary of State for Health. This is what he said about our plans:
“No-one in the House of Commons knows more about the NHS than Andrew Lansley… Andrew Lansley spent six years in Opposition as shadow health secretary. No-one has visited more of the NHS. No-one has talked to more people who work in the NHS than Andrew Lansley… these plans are consistent, coherent and comprehensive. I would expect nothing less from Andrew Lansley.”
That was said by Labour’s shadow Health Secretary. I could not have put it better myself.
Eric Ollerenshaw (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Con)
Q12. Last week the Government committed more than £100 million of investment to the M6 Heysham Port road link, promising to bring much-needed new jobs and businesses to my part of Lancashire. Can the Prime Minister reassure me that, despite our economic difficulties, the Government will continue to invest in major capital schemes, particularly in northern areas such as mine, which were much neglected by the last Labour Government?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend makes a very good point. We have prioritised, in a difficult spending round, spending on capital infrastructure, including the scheme that he mentions. It is important, as we go for growth in our country, that we put capital expenditure into our roads and railways, and things that will help our economy to grow. That is exactly what we are doing in my hon. Friend’s constituency, and in many other constituencies across the country.
Ian Austin (Dudley North) (Lab)
Q13. The Prime Minister insists that the financial crisis was caused by a lack of regulation, but even after the collapse of Northern Rock he complained that the last Government had subjected the banks to excessive bureaucracy and too much regulation. He promised to give them an easier ride, saying,“government needs to do less taxing and regulating”.Is that why donors in the City have given the Tory party so much money?
The Prime Minister
I remember a time when the hon. Gentleman used to write the last Prime Minister’s questions. Given what he has said, I think that the last Prime Minister is writing his questions. The fact is that Labour left us the most indebted households, the most bust banks, and a deficit—[Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. The Prime Minister’s answer will be heard, and with some courtesy. That is what the public want to see. They are sick to death of this sort of behaviour.
The Prime Minister
Thank you, Mr Speaker. Let me just make one point. The person who was the City Minister when the City blew up is now your shadow Chancellor. Great pick.
Priti Patel (Witham) (Con)
Q14. Can the Prime Minister give an assurance that Parliament will have the final say on whether prisoners will have the right to vote? In view of the public’s disdain for the unelected bureaucrats in Strasbourg, will he defend our country from any further sanctions from Europe on the issue?
The Prime Minister
I think the hon. Lady knows that I have every sympathy with her view. I see no reason why prisoners should have the vote. This is not a situation that I want this country to be in. I am sure that you will all have a very lively debate on Thursday, when the House of Commons will make its views known.
EU Council and North Africa
Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton Excerpts(13 years, 3 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron)
With permission, Mr Speaker, I should like to make a statement on last week’s European Council and comment on today’s review by the Cabinet Secretary of the papers relating to the release of Abdelbaset al-Megrahi, which were published at 1pm today.
The Council discussed three principal issues: first, the continuing efforts to tackle instability in the eurozone; secondly, the role of energy and innovation in delivering a comprehensive growth strategy for the EU; and, thirdly, the situation in Egypt. Let me take each in turn.
Eurozone members are quite rightly looking at ways to resolve some of the underlying problems of the euro crisis, including by strengthening economic co-ordination arrangements. My job is to protect and promote Britain’s interests. As I have said before, it is in our interests that the eurozone sorts out its problems. A strong and stable eurozone is in Britain’s interests, but in my view there are three absolute essentials for Britain.
First, we should retain our national currency and our ability to set our own monetary policy, in the UK and for the UK. Secondly, we should ensure that we are not dragged into a new mechanism for bailing out eurozone countries in future. As I described when reporting back from the last European Council, we have achieved that. Thirdly, and most complex, although we should not prevent eurozone countries from coming together to deal with the problems that they face, we must ensure that this does not compromise the single market, which is an important British success story in Europe and should remain one of our key interests. There is a danger that, in developing stronger co-ordination, eurozone countries start affecting things that are more properly part of the single market for all EU members. I made sure that this point was recognised at the Council, and I secured specific assurances to protect the single market. The statement by the eurozone countries, which will be available to Members and which we all debated, makes that clear.
Extending the single market to energy has been a long-held objective of recent Governments of all parties. Achieving that could add up to 0.8% of European GDP and mean another 5 million jobs across Europe by 2020. If we make a 20% improvement on energy efficiency by 2020, that could significantly reduce the pressure on household bills. A single market in energy is good for jobs, competition and energy security, so practical co-operation and competition with the rest of Europe on this is firmly in our national interest. The Council agreed that
“the EU needs a fully functioning, interconnected and integrated internal energy market,”
and that
“the internal market in energy should be completed by 2014”.
We also agreed that
“major efforts are needed to modernise and expand Europe’s energy infrastructure and to interconnect networks across borders.”
Britain should strongly support that, not least as we plan for the North sea offshore super-grid. The conclusions on innovation are also completely in line with what Britain supports and has been trying to achieve. Innovation and energy policy should be part of the growth strategy that we are arguing for in Europe. We will publish our own proposals before the next European Council in March, which will specifically be discussing that subject.
Next, let me turn to Egypt. I was determined that the Council would not produce one of its heavily “caveated” and sometimes rather unclear statements, and I think the declaration that we agreed is strong. First, we agreed that the Egyptian authorities should
“meet the aspirations of the Egyptian people with political reform not repression”.
Secondly, it is clear that a transition is needed to broad-based democratic government, and the declaration is emphatic that
“this transition should start now.”
The European Council was also clear that this should involve the building blocks of free and open societies and democratic institutions, such as freedom of assembly, the rule of law, freedom of speech and free and fair elections.
I believe that there is a strong case—the European statement reflects this—that the EU needs to look hard at its role in that region. We have spent billons of euros of taxpayers’ money in Egypt and neighbouring countries, with carefully crafted association agreements and action plans. We have offered funds, access to our markets and other assistance in exchange for progress on the rule of law, democracy and human rights. In Egypt, however, there has been little or no progress on torture, the judiciary, democracy or ending the state of emergency that has now lasted for 30 years. I believe that it is time for Europe to take a more hard-headed approach whereby the conditions on which we give money are real and insisted upon. I reaffirmed that message in a call at lunchtime today to Vice-President Suleiman, and urged him to take bold and credible steps to show that the transition that they are talking about in Egypt is irreversible, urgent and real.
Finally, let me say a word about the release of the Lockerbie bomber, Abdelbaset al-Megrahi, and the report that has been released today by the Cabinet Secretary. I have not altered my view, which I expressed at the time, that releasing Mr Megrahi was a very bad decision. He was convicted of the biggest mass murder in British history and, in my view, he should have died in jail. It was a bad decision, and the last Government should have condemned it rather than going along with it.
I commissioned this report during my visit to Washington last year. At the time, there was renewed controversy around the decision, a congressional inquiry into it, and calls for a bigger UK inquiry. Concerns were also being put forward, quite forcefully, in America and elsewhere that the whole release might have come about as a result of pressure by BP on the British Government to pressure the Scottish Government to make it happen. I do not believe that that is true, and this report shows that it is not true. It was a decision taken by the Scottish Government—the wrong decision, but their decision none the less. But in view of the continuing speculation in the UK and the US, I thought it right that all the British Government paperwork should be re-examined to assess whether more should be published, and I asked the Cabinet Secretary to do just that.
That is what Sir Gus O’Donnell has now done. In order to address the concerns that were being expressed, he was asked to look at three specific areas. First, whether there was any new evidence that the British Government directly or indirectly pressured or lobbied the Scottish Government for the release of Megrahi; secondly, whether there was pressure placed on the Scottish Government by BP for the release of Megrahi; and, thirdly, whether the Libyans were told that there were linkages between BP’s investment and the release of Megrahi, either under the prisoner transfer agreement or on compassionate grounds.
The report and all the paperwork, running to 140 pages, have been placed in the Library of the House. All decisions on the declassification and publication of papers belonging to the previous Administration were of course taken independently by the Cabinet Secretary. Under the convention covering papers of a previous Administration, he has consulted the appropriate former Ministers and the former Prime Minister. Sir Gus was assisted by the former Information Commissioner, Richard Thomas, to provide an independent validation. He saw all the paperwork, redacted and un-redacted, and his job was to advise the Cabinet Secretary on whether his report and the documents now being published were consistent with the materials that were reviewed. He was also tasked with determining whether this was a fair and accurate account of events. He is content on both counts.
The Cabinet Secretary concludes that the former Government were clear that any decision on Mr Megrahi’s release or transfer under the prisoner transfer agreement was one for the Scottish Government alone to take. He finds that none of the material he reviewed contradicts anything contained within the former Foreign Secretary’s statement to the House in October 2009. He makes the same finding with respect to the current Foreign Secretary’s letter to Senator Kerry in July last year and with respect to statements made by the former Prime Minister on this matter. He notes that it is evident that the Libyans made explicit links between progress on UK commercial interests in Libya and the removal of any clause on the prisoner transfer agreement whose effect would be to exclude Megrahi from it. He notes that after Megrahi had been diagnosed with terminal cancer in September 2008, the then Government’s policy was based on an assessment that UK interests would be damaged if Megrahi were to die in a UK jail.
The Cabinet Secretary finds—and this is a key point:
“Policy was therefore developed that HMG should do all it could, whilst respecting devolved competences, to facilitate an appeal by the Libyans to the Scottish Government for Mr Megrahi’s transfer under the PTA or release on compassionate grounds. . . as the best outcome for managing the risks faced by the UK”.
One of the Foreign Office papers released today makes it plain that
“Facilitating direct contact between the Libyans and the Scottish Executive is a key part of our game plan on Megrahi”.
Another Foreign Office paper from January 2009 states:
“We now need to go further and work actively, but discreetly, to ensure that Megrahi is transferred back to Libya under the PTA or failing that released on compassionate grounds.”
Frankly, I believe this tells us something that was not made clear at the time. It goes further than the account that the former Prime Minister and the former Foreign Secretary gave, as we were not told about facilitating an appeal, facilitating contact or a game plan. Indeed, the Cabinet Secretary’s report says:
“Policy was therefore progressively developed that HMG should do all it could, whilst respecting devolved competences, to facilitate an appeal by the Libyans to the Scottish Government for Mr Megrahi’s transfer under the PTA or release on compassionate grounds. . . as the best outcome for managing the risks faced by the UK.”
Hon. Members will be able to study the paperwork and consider these issues for themselves. My view is clear: we have learned some new information, particularly about what we were told by Ministers, but I do not believe that these papers justify calls for a new inquiry. What they do provide is further evidence that this was, in my view, a flawed decision by the Scottish Executive, which we already knew; and I believe they point to some broader lessons from this affair.
It is clear from these papers that the last Government badly underestimated—in fact, failed seriously even to consider except as an issue to be managed—the reaction both in Britain and in the United States to the release of Mr Megrahi, above all among many of the families who lost loved ones. The key point that emerges to me from reading the paperwork is that insufficient consideration was given to the most basic question of all: was it really right for the British Government to “facilitate” an appeal by the Libyans to the Scottish Government in the case of an individual who was convicted of murdering 270 people, including 43 British citizens, 190 Americans and 19 other nationalities? That, for me, is the biggest lesson of this entire affair. For my part, I repeat: I believe it was profoundly wrong. The fact that, 18 months later, the Lockerbie bomber is living at liberty in Tripoli serves only to underline that. I commend this statement to the House.
Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab)
I thank the Prime Minister for his statement. I want to start, because of their importance, with the European Council conclusions on Egypt. I believe that the Egyptian people are continuing to show enormous courage and consistency in their desire for fundamental and lasting change. As I said last week, we support the call for a clear, credible and transparent path towards transition as soon as possible.
May I join the Prime Minister and his fellow leaders of the European Union in condemning any attacks on peaceful demonstrators and urge the authorities to allow the people of Egypt to continue to exercise their right to free and peaceful protests? The Prime Minister spoke to Vice-President Suleiman today, so will he update the House on his view of the current talks between the Vice-President and the Opposition parties and tell us whether he thinks these might lay the ground for the transition? Will he also offer the latest thinking of the EU and allies on the difficult issue of the role of President Mubarak during the transition?
Does the Prime Minister agree that the transition must include not just the provision of free and fair elections but other democratic structures, from a free press and diverse political parties to an independent judiciary? Will he also take the opportunity to update us on the steps he has taken since last week to ensure the safety of British nationals in Egypt during the current turbulence?
Let me deal with the other matters discussed at last Friday’s European Council. On energy policy, we welcome the Council’s conclusions on the internal market in gas and electricity and on the North sea grid. We also welcome the Council’s plans for improvement of Europe’s energy infrastructure. Such action can make us more resilient in the face of potential supply disruptions, as we saw in 2008-09 during the dispute between Russia and Ukraine.
Let me ask the Prime Minister two questions about the way in which our policy at home relates to the discussions in Europe. First, we note the Council’s conclusions on the importance of renewable energy. May I ask the Prime Minister to update the House on the implementation of the renewable heat incentive, which is a crucial part of his renewable energy strategy? It was due to come into force in April this year, but has now been delayed. Can the Prime Minister tell us when it will be introduced?
Secondly, given that the financing of energy investment is a big issue across Europe, which the Council rightly flags up, may I ask the Prime Minister to update the House on progress in regard to the green investment bank? He has committed himself to building on our plans. Can he tell us whether he intends this to be a fully fledged bank, as many have argued that it should be?
I welcome the Council’s conclusions on the wider economy, including the eurozone. May I ask what discussions took place on the prospects for European growth next year? The summit has concluded that
“the overall economic outlook is improving”,
but I have to say that that is not how it will seem to many families in the United Kingdom. Did the Prime Minister share the recent experience of the United Kingdom with the Council, and did he warn his colleagues that cutting budget deficits too far and too fast could have damaging effects on growth and employment?
Let me now turn to the case of Mr Megrahi. The Lockerbie bombing was a terrible atrocity, destroying hundreds of lives and scarring the families left behind. The Cabinet Secretary, Sir Gus O’Donnell, has conducted a serious and thorough report on the papers relating to Mr Megrahi’s release, and we will study it in detail.
Sir Gus’s report makes three significant conclusions that pertain to Mr Megrahi’s eventual release. First, it concludes that the United Kingdom Government were worried about the impact on British interests of Mr Megrahi’s dying in jail. That is precisely what the former Foreign Secretary said in a statement to the House on 12 October 2009. Secondly, the report makes it clear that there is no evidence that
“UK interests played a part in Mr Megrahi’s release by the Scottish Government on compassionate grounds.”
Indeed, Sir Gus went on to conclude that
“the former Government took great effort not to communicate to the Scottish Government”
their view. Thirdly, he concluded:
“Mr Megrahi's release on compassionate grounds was a decision that Scottish Ministers alone could—and did—make.”
So the message of today’s report is that Mr Megrahi’s release was not influenced by the United Kingdom Government. Perhaps the Prime Minister will tell us whether he agrees with that.
Above all, what today’s report should remind us is that the bombing of Pan Am flight 103 must live in the memories of this country and the United States. We must take all possible steps to ensure that it never happens again.
The Prime Minister
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his comments and questions. I think that he is right about the response of the United Kingdom, the European Union and the United States to events in Egypt. While, in my view, one can never be certain that every statement made by the European Union is being listened to that carefully, I believe that in regard to its statement that the Egyptian Government must choose reform and not repression, the recent behaviour of the army in Egypt has been encouraging.
The right hon. Gentleman asked whether the current talks would be good enough to lead to transition. That is an extremely difficult question to answer. The point that I made to Vice-President Suleiman was that the more that the Egyptian Government could do to demonstrate that, for instance, they were bringing some opposition leaders into a transitional Government, the more they would be able to convince people that they were trying to reform, change, and deal with the constitutional issues. We have advised them to try to get ahead of events rather than taking a series of incremental steps, which I do not think are doing enough to respond to the aspirations of the Egyptian people. As the right hon. Gentleman rightly said, the transition is not just about the date of an election; it is about those building blocks of democracy that I mentioned earlier.
All United Kingdom citizens who wanted to leave have been able to do so. We will continue to keep travel advice under review, including advice on travel to the Sinai peninsula.
The right hon. Gentleman asked two very good questions about the renewable heat incentive, which is an absolutely vital initiative that we are taking, and about the green investment bank. Both projects are moving ahead. The Government have published structural reform plans with dates for implementation, so one thing that others can do is hold us to account when things do not happen during the week in which they are meant to happen, and I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will do that.
On the economy, the right hon. Gentleman has mentioned sitting round the European Council table and talking about the impact of cutting budgets. My overwhelming impression was listening—we had to listen at some length—to reports from Greece, Portugal and Spain about their economies. Having seen what they have had to cut and the difficulties that they are in, the warning that I take from that is, “Do not go back into the danger zone, where those countries still are.”
On al-Megrahi, I set it out as best I could in my statement. It is clear to me that those who think that a conspiracy was cooked up between BP, the British Government and the Scots to release al-Megrahi are not right. It was a Scottish decision by the Scottish Government—in my view, it was mistaken. As I have said, we have learned something today about what we were told in this House by Ministers. When hon. Members look at what was said in this House and what we have seen in these papers, I think that they will agree with me—I am trying to be very reasonable about this—that we were not given a complete picture.
Sir Malcolm Rifkind (Kensington) (Con)
As the then Secretary of State for Scotland, I had to visit Lockerbie on the night of that disaster, when I saw the terrible consequences that flowed from it. I have always been appalled by the release of the convicted murderer. The Prime Minister has drawn attention to the Cabinet Secretary’s conclusion, in which the Cabinet Secretary states that the previous Government wished to do all within their power to facilitate the release of Mr Megrahi. Do not the documents released today show that, in pursuit of that objective, a Foreign Office Minister met his Libyan ministerial counterpart, offered to send details of how release on compassionate grounds might be obtained and wrote to his ministerial colleague on 18 October 2008? Does that not confirm that the previous Government were up to their neck in this shoddy business, that they were desperate to see the release of Mr Megrahi and that they must therefore share responsibility with the Scottish Government for one of the most foolish and shameful decisions of recent years?
The Prime Minister
As ever, my right hon. and learned Friend brings a mixture of experience and precision to this issue. We were told by the previous Government what they did not want, which was the death of al-Megrahi in a Scottish prison, but we were not told by the previous Government what they did want, which was the facilitation of his release. That comes over, time and again. The most powerful point that my right hon. and learned Friend makes is this: in the end, that man was convicted of the largest mass murder in British history, which should have been the thought coursing through ministerial veins and brains when Ministers wrote those memos and made those speeches.
Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab)
I fully understand the Prime Minister’s concern and that of colleagues on both sides of the House about the timing and circumstances of the release of Mr Megrahi. However, having read the Cabinet Secretary’s report in full, which I have here, may I say that it was wrong of the Prime Minister to elide quotations from the Cabinet Secretary’s conclusions with his own gloss, implying that those were indeed the conclusions? As my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition has spelt out, and contrary to the implication that the Prime Minister has given to the House, the Cabinet Secretary concluded that nothing in the material that he reviewed contradicts anything that my right hon. Friend the former Foreign Secretary told this House on 12 October in a detailed statement or anything that my right hon. Friend the former Prime Minister has said at any time on this issue. The conclusions back up the continued assertion made by the former Prime Minister, the former Foreign Secretary and me, as the Prime Minister has finally admitted through gritted teeth, that there was no pressure from BP on the Scottish Government, that we acted properly at all times and, moreover, that at no stage did we ever suggest to the Scottish Government what decision they should take.
On so-called facilitation, let me read to the House the very next sentence. It
“amounted to: proceeding with ratification of the PTA”,
which was in hand anyway,
“explaining to Libya in factual terms the process for application for transfer under a PTA…and informing the Scottish Government that there was no legal barrier to transfer under the PTA”.
That was all known before and does not contradict what my right hon. Friend the former Foreign Secretary said at the time.
The Prime Minister
Let me make two points gently to the right hon. Gentleman. First, although the Cabinet Secretary rightly, in my view, finds that nothing in this report contradicts what the then Foreign Secretary did say, my point is purely this: this is about what was not in that statement. That is because when we look at what is in the report, we find that it is very clear that there were all sorts of things—facilitations and game plans—that we were not made aware of.
I do not want, in any way, to misquote what Gus O’Donnell has done in a very good report. The conclusions in paragraph 34 state:
“Policy was therefore progressively developed that HMG should do all it could, whilst respecting devolved competences, to facilitate an appeal by the Libyans to the Scottish Government for Mr Megrahi’s transfer under the PTA or release on compassionate grounds… as the best outcome for managing the risks faced by the UK.”
All right hon. and hon. Members will be able to make up their mind whether what we were told by the previous Government was a full and complete picture. Everyone can make up their mind and I am pretty sure what a reasonable person will come to.
Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD)
The emphasis in these matters has always been on Mr Megrahi’s condition, but, respectfully, it seems to me that other issues have to be taken into account as well. The first is the nature of the crime, the second is the consequences of the crime and the third is the sentence imposed by the court. Had the British Government at the time taken proper account of those factors, I doubt very much whether they would have reached the conclusion that they did and sought to “assist”, to put it neutrally, the Libyan Government. But, equally, if Mr MacAskill had taken proper account of the nature of the crime, the consequences of the crime and the sentence imposed, he would surely have found that those factors far outweighed any question of compassion.
The Prime Minister
The right hon. and learned Gentleman puts it extremely clearly. The fact is that al-Megrahi was allowed to go home and die with his relatives, but that is not a luxury he afforded to anyone who was on that jet, and you have to take into account the nature and the consequences of a crime when you think about your actions. As I say, when we get away from all the detail of the report and just stand back and think about the big picture—as I say, the lesson to be drawn is that we have to keep focusing on the big picture—which is the heinous crime that was committed, the lives that were taken and the families that were wrecked, we have to think that someone has to suffer the consequences of that.
Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab)
What discussions took place at the EU Council about events in Egypt lending added urgency to breaking the impasse in the middle east peace process? What is the Prime Minister personally doing to break that impasse?
The Prime Minister
I did have discussions with Baroness Ashton about this, it was also discussed around the table and I had a very good meeting with Hillary Clinton in Munich. Obviously, there are concerns that instability in Egypt will make progress on the middle east peace process more difficult, but I strongly believe that we should not take our eye off the ball and that we should keep the pressure up—that means pressure on both sides. It means pressure on Israel to make progress on issues such as settlements and pressure on the Palestinians to return to meaningful talks. Britain will play a very key role in this, and I commend Baroness Ashton for her work.
Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con)
Trade between the United Kingdom and north African countries has historically been lamentable; we are way down the list on bilateral trade compared with our European partners. Will the Prime Minister do more to make sure that UK Trade & Investment plays a leading role in helping British companies to increase trade with countries such as Tunisia and Egypt to support democracy there?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend makes a good point and the Foreign Secretary will be going to Tunisia later today. We want to have good trading relationships with those countries, but that should never be bought at the price of trading off our values. We should have had a clearer red line about what was and was not appropriate, but Britain has to trade itself out of recession and links with fast-growing countries all over the world are absolutely what we are trying to put together.
Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)
Fine words have been said by the Prime Minister, the President of the United States and other western leaders about the very brave demonstrators in Egypt. Is it not possible that those demonstrators are asking—this is an interesting question—why the western powers have been so silent over the past 25 or 30 years about what has been happening in their country, including the authoritarian rule, the denial of liberty and the sadistic tortures that have been taking place in prisons? Those sorts of questions should be asked not only in Egypt but elsewhere.
The Prime Minister
The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. As I said in my statement, the EU has leverage over those countries in terms of the aid it gives and it should be tougher in asking for conditions in return for that aid. In terms of the situation we face today, I just do not accept that there is only, on the one hand, an Islamist regime or, on the other, standing up for the tough man—the dictator. We must encourage those countries not necessarily to have free elections just like that, at the flick of a switch, but to put in place the building blocks of genuinely free countries and open societies that will make sure that they have lasting democracies when they reach that goal.
Richard Ottaway (Croydon South) (Con)
The conclusion by Sir Gus O’Donnell that the previous Government did “all it could” to facilitate the release of Mr Megrahi is bad enough, but it is also inconsistent with the impression created by the previous Government. Has the Prime Minister made any assessment of the motive for such behaviour?
The Prime Minister
It is for Ministers to explain what they said and what they did not say. Clearly, they can rely on what is in the report about not being contradicted, but I think they have to look—and I hope they will do it fairly—and ask themselves, “Given that I was receiving memos about a game plan of facilitating contact and given that I was signing off those memos, shouldn’t I have really said to the House of Commons and elsewhere that it was not just that we didn’t want this man to die in a Scottish jail but that we were working actively with the Libyans to try to secure his release?” I think they should have said something more along those lines. I have genuinely tried to approach this by asking what is fair in terms of what we should have been told when those questions were asked.
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
I do not think that trade should ever be the sole determinant when it comes to our foreign policy, which is why I hope to persuade the Prime Minister to adopt more of his muscular liberalism, to coin a phrase, in relation to the Russian Federation. Sergei Magnitsky was tortured and murdered in a Russian jail when he was working for a British company in Russia. The United States Congress is now considering banning from the USA anyone who was involved either in the corruption he uncovered or in his torture and murder. Will the Prime Minister consider doing the same here and will he make sure that those views are expressed to Foreign Minister Lavrov when he visits next week?
The Prime Minister
The hon. Gentleman makes a good point and I am glad that the phrase “muscular liberalism” is catching on. That is exactly the approach we have taken with Russia and we do raise questions such as those that the hon. Gentleman asked when we hold meetings with President Medvedev, as I have done, or with Foreign Minister Lavrov, as my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary has done, and we will go on raising those issues. Some countries have not taken that approach, but we think it is the right approach.
Mr Julian Brazier (Canterbury) (Con)
Bearing in mind that several of the key moderate figures in Egypt have made pledges to have a referendum on the long-standing peace treaty with Israel, does my right hon. Friend, in pursuit of the excellent answer he gave to the right hon. Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw) earlier, agree that a key factor in determining whether we get a good outcome in Egypt will be whether the current Israeli Government are willing to stop building more settlements and be serious about coming to the peace table?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend makes a good point, but we should also be clear with reformers and opposition figures in Egypt that we see progress on the peace process as absolutely vital for the stability and prosperity of that region. This is where the European Union has some leverage because in those association agreements we should be making sure that just as there is money in return for progress on things we care about internally, they should also be about standing by agreements that have been entered into, including in the peace process.
Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP)
I am grateful for an advance copy of the statement. The Prime Minister has long taken a different view from the Scottish Government or international observers such as Nelson Mandela on compassionate release. What is new, however, is that these official UK documents prove that as of autumn 2008, UK Labour Ministers supported Mr Megrahi being released to Libya, so they were saying one thing in public and the opposite in private. Is that not rank hypocrisy?
The Prime Minister
I have made my view clear and I tried to state it in a calm and reasonable way, because I do not believe that there was some conspiracy cooked up between a Scottish National party Government and a Labour Government. They find it hard enough to communicate with each other at the best of times. I see a few prominent Scottish MPs nodding. I think Ministers will want to look back at what they said and ask, “Could I have said more to give a complete picture?”
Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD)
I welcome the European Council’s strong position of support for the Egyptian people, particularly with regard to assistance with the transition to democracy. However, building new Government structures is not straightforward and should not be rushed, and that is why it needs to start now. Will the Prime Minister ensure that in providing assistance, the EU draws on the expertise of organisations such as the Westminster Foundation for Democracy and the Friedrich Naumann Foundation, both of which have a wealth of expertise in supporting fledgling democracies and working in Egypt?
The Prime Minister
The hon. Lady makes a good point about civil society organisations here that can work with civil society organisations in Egypt. The point that I would make about transition starting now is that precisely because the Egyptians say that there are all sorts of problems with amending their constitution and doing it quickly, they should be examining what they can do to build confidence among people on the streets of Cairo that they are genuinely changing. That is where I think considering including Opposition members in a transitional Government and giving some visible, clear and irreversible signs of what their intentions are would make a big difference.
Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab)
I think we heard two statements today, and they should have been separated. On al-Megrahi, does the Prime Minister recall that many of us had to hold our nose as IRA killers and terrorists were let out for the greater good of peace and stability? On his statement, can he say something about Tunisia? That is a small country, with only 10 million people, secular, highly educated, looking to Europe for help. May I ask him to ask the Foreign Office—he will probably be knocking at an open door—to see what we can do with economic and political investment in Tunisia to bring it, particularly as it is much smaller and more manageable than Egypt, closer to Europe?
The Prime Minister
The right hon. Gentleman makes a good point. That is one of the reasons why the Foreign Secretary is getting on an aeroplane this afternoon, going to Tunisia and talking to the Tunisians about helping to put in place the building blocks of a free and open society. One of the problems in these countries is the massive level of corruption. It was that which angered their populations so much, and we need to work with them. Going back to the issue of Libya and Northern Ireland, of course everyone had to hold their nose and talk to people we did not want to talk to and deal with people we did not want to deal with, but Governments were pretty frank about what we were doing and why we were doing it. That is my point.
Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)
It is important that we do nothing to talk up the prospect of wider instability in north Africa and the Maghreb. Does my right hon. Friend share my dismay at less than forensic reports in the western press that seek to conflate inherently unstable countries such as Egypt and Tunisia with countries such as Morocco, which have a far more enlightened order economically, socially and politically?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend makes an important point. We should not assume that those countries are all the same. Genuine stability should be based on the progressive realisation of the goal of a more open society and the building blocks of the sort of civil society that we recognise. We cannot pretend, as neo-conservatives did, that we solve the problems in one go simply by holding an election. We should be clear, as people who believe in those rights at home, that we should be trying to achieve them progressively elsewhere.
Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op)
The Prime Minister referred, rightly, to the efforts and the work of Baroness Ashton. He also said that he had had discussions with Hillary Clinton. In that context, what is his understanding of the United States’ attitude to the changes going on in Egypt? Is it US policy to support Mr Wisner’s view that President Mubarak should stay, or to support the EU view that there should be an early transition?
The Prime Minister
That was a well-put question, which I will try not to glide around too diplomatically. The US and the UK are absolutely aligned on this; I spoke to President Obama over the weekend, and we are pushing for the same things. We want transition, we want it to be real and we want it to start now. We believe that it should include some of the things we have been discussing today, like bringing opposition figures into the Government, having dates for a road map for elections and making sure that they deal with some of the abuses of the past. In terms of what Mr Wisner said, I do not think that the way he put his words was a full reflection of the US Government’s view, as I think has been made clear.
Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)
Given my right hon. Friend’s important speech over the weekend, does he not agree that the previous Government’s facilitation of the release of al-Megrahi sent entirely the wrong signal to dictators, Islamists and terrorists right across the globe and represents a considerable setback to those who oppose such things? Will he take steps to ensure that as a United Kingdom we are never faced with such a situation again?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend makes a good point, which is that when this happened a very bad message was sent about what we stand for in the UK and our views in terms of the response to such a heinous crime. It is important to bear that in mind, and as I said in my statement, I do not think that enough thought was given to that, which in the end is the most precious of all judgments that Ministers should make.
David Cairns (Inverclyde) (Lab)
As the Minister of State in the Scotland Office at the time, and as Mr Megrahi’s constituency MP, I strongly agree with the Prime Minister that Mr Megrahi should have spent the rest of his natural life in prison. Does he agree with me that however ill-considered and ill-judged phrases such as “our game plan on Megrahi” may be—had anyone approached me with such a game plan, I would have told them where they could put it—it must not obscure the central fact that it was a decision that was taken, and could only ever have been taken, by Scottish Government Ministers? There was no collusion, no cover-up and no conspiracy, just a bad decision by the SNP.
The Prime Minister
I go a long way with the hon. Gentleman, who I think made the right judgment about the release of Megrahi. The problem, and this comes out in the report, is that memos submitted to Ministers in the Foreign Office included things like,
“Facilitating direct contact between the Libyans and the Scottish Executive is a key part of our game plan on Megrahi”,
and that submission was subsequently agreed by the Minister. That is the point. The language about facilitating contacts that was put into memos was subsequently agreed by Ministers, including the former Foreign Secretary, and we were not told about that in the House of Commons. That is an issue that needs to be addressed.
Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)
One fifth—20%—of the Egyptian population are Christians, mostly Copts and some Catholics. Does my right hon. Friend agree that pluralism and human rights need to be at the centre of any dialogue on the future of Egypt and that the litmus test for whether Egypt is going forward into the 21st century or backwards will be the treatment of minorities, such as Christians, in the weeks and months ahead?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend makes an extremely good point. When you consider how much money the EU has put into a country such as Egypt—something like €500 million over the last three years—those are exactly the sorts of things that we should be insisting on, which I think are tests of a civilised society.
Sir Stuart Bell (Middlesbrough) (Lab)
May I tell the Prime Minister that the 17 member states of the eurozone will be quite comfortable in dealing with safeguarding the euro into the future? He was right to refer to the single market in his speech in Davos last week, as 60% of our trade is with the European Union, but I urge him not to treat the EU as à la carte, only with trade; it must also cover the environment, immigration and energy security—that is to say, menu fixe.
The Prime Minister
I do not entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman: 50% of our trade is with the EU, and 44% with eurozone members. We want a healthy eurozone, but if a menu fixe means that we have to join everything, including the single currency, frankly, count me out.
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
Is it not terrific that we now have a Prime Minister who goes to Europe and puts Britain’s interests first? Would he clarify just one point? He said that we will not be dragged into a mechanism to bail out the eurozone countries, but that we could of course opt in to such a mechanism. Are we just ruling out a mechanism, or are we not going to join a mechanism that will help bail out the euro?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend asks a very good question that requires quite a complicated answer. Because of the previous Government’s decisions at the time of the general election, we are still at risk of the European financial mechanism, which was set up at that time and used in part to help Ireland, as it is decided by qualified majority voting. What we have achieved, in terms of the treaty change being proposed for the future, is to make sure that the UK cannot be pulled into a future mechanism for doing those things. That is the position we have managed to secure, and, as I say, in Europe once you have secured these things, you have to make sure that you damn well continue securing them for the future.
Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab)
The Prime Minister said in his statement, “It is time for Europe to take a more hard-headed approach where the conditions on which we give money are real and insisted upon.” At the Security Conference in Munich, Baroness Ashton, when asked whether the European Union will continue to assist on conditionality for its aid, would not give a clear answer. Did the UK insist on that approach and Europe not agree, or did Baroness Ashton just fail to give us a precise answer?
The Prime Minister
What we discussed at the European Council was a specific declaration on Egypt, and I made sure that in that declaration there was some language about the association agreements that we entered into and making sure that they were real and tangible. I have the language in the folder before me; perhaps I can repeat it in a minute, because it does seem to me important. I am sure that Baroness Ashton, in looking at the conclusions that we reached, will recognise that we did all agree that that should be the case.
David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)
Could the Prime Minister tell us whether the EU Council took note that Morocco, which has embraced and is embracing a human rights and democracy agenda, has not suffered from outbreaks of civil unrest? Does he agree that we could do more to help that country and everyone in the region if we encouraged other nations in the area to take part in negotiations over a referendum on the future of Western Sahara?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend makes an extremely good point. In our relations with those countries, we want to look at all the things that will help to encourage stability, progress and peace rather than strife.
In terms of the association agreement with Egypt, the declaration on Egypt says very specifically that we agreed:
“The basis for the EU’s relationship with Egypt must be the principles set out in the Association Agreement and the commitments made.”
European leaders agreed that statement, and I think it is important for the future.
Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)
Were there any discussions at the European Council concerning Yemen? The Prime Minister will be aware of how important that country is in the fight against terrorism, and of the excellent talks between the Foreign Secretary and the Yemeni Foreign Secretary last week. Is the Prime Minister satisfied with the package of measures put forward by President Ali Abdullah Saleh? Is not the stability of Yemen absolutely vital in the area? If the Yemeni Government fall, al-Qaeda will be the winner.
The Prime Minister
The right hon. Gentleman makes an important point, which is that Yemen is vital to the security not just of that region, but frankly of our world, because there has been such a lot of al-Qaeda activity in that part of the Arabian peninsula. Yemen was mentioned at the European Council. In terms of the action that President Saleh has taken, clearly we want to see it in detail and see it put in place. There is something of wake-up call in Yemen because of the incredible stresses and problems that that country faces, and we need to work with it. I have met President Saleh and spoken to him on the telephone, and the Foreign Secretary has had meetings, as the right hon. Gentleman says. We need to help Yemen with its reform programme, not just so that it becomes more stable, but so that it is able to deal with the cancer of al-Qaeda which is in its own country.
Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister believe it to be a coincidence that, despite numerous assurances from the then Labour Government that Mr Ronnie Biggs would remain in prison until he died, the then Justice Secretary, the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw), conducted a U-turn and released Mr Biggs on compassionate grounds—mysteriously just weeks before Mr Megrahi was released on the same grounds?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend is pulling me into territory where I should not go, but it does seem to be a pretty good medical record that people released from prison, normally on the brink of keeling over, then last for a very, very long time.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
The Prime Minister mentioned that he wants to see a strong and secure eurozone. On a day when our papers are still full of stories about the predicament of British banks, which are vulnerable to loans that they made over recent years, and at the same time full of stories about bankers’ bonuses, can the Prime Minister tell us whether there was a discussion about the still perilous state of our banking system throughout Europe, and the fact that bankers’ bonuses are still paid out at such levels?
The Prime Minister
Of course we did discuss what lies at the heart of the eurozone crisis, part of which is about banks that were hopelessly over-leveraged, over-extended and all the rest of it. Here in the UK, we are having a serious conversation with the banks whereby we try to sort out what we want to see. I want to see them paying more tax, I want to see them doing more lending, particularly to small businesses, and I want to see a smaller bonus pool than last year. I am confident that we will be able to achieve those things in this country.
Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)
I know that the Prime Minister has to use diplomatic language, but we all know that the truth is that if al-Megrahi had come from a non-oil rich, non-strategic country, he would still be in prison. So imagine the pain today of the mothers and fathers, the sons and daughters, of those killed on that flight. Can the Prime Minister somehow, on behalf of the British people, say sorry, apologise and articulate the view that never again will we appease murderous dictators in the interests of realpolitik?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend puts the point very powerfully. I would say to all those who lost loved ones in that appalling terrorist act that we are profoundly sorry for their loss and for how they have suffered. When one of them said, “I’m not able to spend Christmas at home with my loved ones in the way that this man is”, I think they spoke for everybody. We have to understand that when a crime like that is committed, it is not some un-violent sense of retribution just to say that that person should not be released from prison. They have basically committed a life sentence on all those families who are never going to see their loved ones again. Not to understand that is to fail in the duty of a Minister.
John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op)
This further step towards our long-held goal of a single market for energy should open doors for areas like mine to forge ahead with offshore wind. Will the Prime Minister recognise and address legitimate concerns over the weakness of his policies for growth so that jobs are created here in the UK and small businesses can properly apply for and get jobs in the supply chain?
The Prime Minister
I do not accept what the hon. Gentleman says. At a European level, this is going to be helpful for the onshore and offshore wind industry and other renewable industries in this country. Also, here in the UK we have provided specific grants to ports to update their infrastructure so that large manufacturers can come here and manufacture wind turbines and provide offshore wind. I have spoken personally to companies that are coming to do that in parts of the UK. We will go on supporting the growth of this very important renewables sector.
Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)
The Prime Minister has highlighted some significant inconsistencies between what the previous Administration stated publicly and what was released by Sir Gus O’Donnell earlier today. Obviously, the focus should be on the victims of this horrendous crime, but what assessment has the Prime Minister made of the effects on the relationship with some parts of the US Administration?
The Prime Minister
The relationship is extremely good, and I think it will go on being good. I discussed this issue with Hillary Clinton when we met at the weekend. I think that the Administration have been grateful for the very strong and clear view that the Government have taken about the events surrounding the release of al-Megrahi and the fact that it was wrong. This point also goes back to what was said earlier. Of course, we want to have good relations not just with America but with Libya and with other countries, but we have to have some pretty clear lines in our minds about what is going to be part of that relationship and what is not. Frankly, I think it is perfectly possible to have good relations if we are clear about those things.
David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con)
I was fortunate enough to work briefly with one of the victims of the Lockerbie bombing who was so tragically taken from us in 1988. I am sure that the families of these victims will be very interested to read the report that was issued today. Is my right hon. Friend aware of whether any previous Ministers from the former Government are planning to meet the groups of families who represent these victims to explain the policy that has so obviously come to light today?
The Prime Minister
I know that a number of victims’ families will obviously be interested in the report, and some will be seeking meetings either with the Government or with others. To be frank with my hon. Friend, not all the victims’ families take the same view about al-Megrahi and what happened and whether he was responsible, and all the rest of it. We have to be clear that he was convicted after a properly constituted and thorough trial. He then had an appeal, which was quashed. On that basis, the decisions that were made were clearly wrong decisions.
Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con)
In the Cabinet Secretary’s report, he notes that the former Justice Secretary, the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw),
“contemplated the merits of offering the Scottish Government a letter in support of a Libyan request”
to release al-Megrahi. Does the Prime Minister agree that that was an odd thing to contemplate if it was clear that there was a Government policy not to put any pressure on the Scottish Executive?
The Prime Minister
To be fair to the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw), who is not here—although it is not my job to defend him—the report states that he considered making contact with the Scottish Executive and then decided not to. That piece of evidence suggests that there was not the great conspiracy that some people felt there might have been, in particular the American Senators I met who represent victims’ families. It is easy to understand why they thought that might have happened. They were looking at a country overseas, and were hearing what BP was saying, what the Government were doing and what the Scottish Executive were doing. However, I do not think that that is how the evidence stacks up. There was no conspiracy—it was a Scottish decision. As I said, the report highlights some issues about what we were told and how we were told it.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
Greece is responsible for an extremely leaky part of the EU’s external border. Its asylum system was recently condemned as unfit. The problem for the UK is that should economic migrants make their way into the EU to claim asylum and end up in Britain, we cannot send them back to Greece. Was that issue discussed at the Council? How can we get the Greeks to secure their part of the EU frontier?
The Prime Minister
We did not discuss the EU migration issue at this Council, but we discuss it often. Greece and Italy tend to be voluble about it because they are often the door through which so many migrants come. I will make two points. First, we need to ensure that we can return people. The arrangements between Britain and France are extremely good. Secondly, one reason why we should not have a common immigration policy is that I do not want our population to be dependent on decisions made at the border of other countries. That is why I think we should keep this as an area of national competence.
Abdelbaset al-Megrahi
Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton Excerpts(13 years, 3 months ago)
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The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron)
On 20 July 2010 I asked the Cabinet Secretary to conduct a review of Government papers relating to the release of the Lockerbie bomber. The purpose of this review was to ensure that all paperwork that could be published was published in order to address as fully as possible the continued concerns that were being expressed over this release, including from victims’ families.
The Cabinet Secretary has completed that review. I have placed his report and the further papers that are being released in the Libraries of both Houses.
The review assessed all material across Government. The Cabinet Secretary was assisted in this task by the former Information Commissioner and current Chairman of the Administrative Justice and Tribunals Council, Richard Thomas. He has provided independent validation of this process and confirms the report and the documents now being published are consistent with all the materials he has reviewed and provide a fair and accurate account of events.
Under the convention covering papers of a previous administration, the Cabinet Secretary consulted former Ministers and the former Prime Minister about publication of additional papers.
All decisions on the declassification and publication of papers belonging to the previous Administration were taken by the Cabinet Secretary. He is clear that any information not published does not alter or contradict his report in any way.
Ministerial Interests
Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton Excerpts(13 years, 3 months ago)
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The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron)
In line with the commitment in the Ministerial Code, I have today published a list of Ministers’ interests. Copies of the list have been placed in the Libraries of both Houses.