Draft Single Source Contract (Amendment) Regulations 2024

James Cartlidge Excerpts

Wednesday 6th March 2024 General Committees

[The Minister for Defence Procurement (James Cartlidge)]

I beg to move,

That the Committee has considered the draft Single Source Contract (Amendment) Regulations 2024.

It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Mrs Murray. There is a lot of tension in Westminster today—possibly not on this item, but it is very important none the less.

The Ministry of Defence’s preferred approach to procurement remains through open competition in the domestic and global markets, but we are often limited to a single supplier to provide the capabilities that our armed forces need, particularly when we have to procure equipment quickly, in the face of rapidly evolving threats. We also need to preserve key industrial and technological capabilities within the UK, for strategic reasons. The combination of those factors means that single source procurement amounts to about 50% of defence procurement spend on equipment and services, or some £13 billion per year.

Where there is a lack of competitive pressure, the MOD needs alternative ways of assuring value for money for the taxpayer, while ensuring that our suppliers are paid the fair returns required to preserve their long-term viability. Like many countries, the UK Government use a statutory framework, introduced through the Defence Reform Act 2014 and the attendant Single Source Contract Regulations 2014. These set out clear rules on pricing single source defence contracts, which place the onus on suppliers to demonstrate that their costs are appropriate, attributable and reasonable, and they define the level of profit that can be applied. Where there is a dispute about the price, either party can make a referral on the matter to the impartial Single Source Regulations Office for a legally binding decision.

Since their introduction in 2014, the single source contract regulations have generally worked well and have helped to ensure that the prices paid for single source contracts are reasonable. Under the regime, there are now some 575 contracts, with a total value of more than £90 billion. However, any set of regulations needs to adapt as the environment changes. In this case, we have found that the rules continue to work well for traditional defence procurement—for ships, submarines, aircraft and other platforms—but that they work less well for sectors such as software and digital. Moreover, the imperative to procure things more quickly means that we sometimes need to buy off-the-shelf items, without running a competition, either because we need compatibility with existing systems or because we do not have the time. To address that, we completed a detailed statutory review of the regime in 2022. That proposed a series of reforms in a Command Paper entitled “Defence and Security Industrial Strategy: reform of the Single Source Contract Regulations”, which was published for consultation in April 2022.

The changes made by these amendment regulations are the next stage in implementing the reforms. They will deliver improvements to the regime in three key ways. First, they will increase the flexibility on where the regime can be used, to ensure that more defence contracts can be single sourced without compromising assurance or value for money and fair prices. The amendment regulations introduce a number of alternative ways of pricing a single source defence contract, most significantly by allowing prices to be set with reference to market rates, rather than always having to use the bottom-up default pricing formula. Another example is where existing UK or overseas laws constrain the way in which prices are set, in a way that is inconsistent with the single source regime. In such circumstances, the amendments will allow the disapplication of the pricing formula, to the minimum extent necessary to comply with those other laws.

There are also cases in which it would be useful to disapply the pricing formula to part of a contract, particularly where a contract comes under the regulations significantly after it was signed. This will avoid the need to reopen the pricing of work that may have been completed and paid for years in the past and increase suppliers’ willingness to bring long-running contracts under the regime. The amendments will allow the pricing formula to be applied only to new elements of the contract.

Secondly, the reforms will speed up and simplify the way the regulations work in practice. The legislation currently states that for contracts that fall under the regulations, a single profit rate needs to be applied to the entirety of the contract when it is signed. For some larger single source contracts, it makes commercial sense to use different pricing types for different elements of the contract, meaning a single profit rate might be too high or too low for some elements. These amendment regulations will explicitly allow contracts to be split into different components where it makes sense to do so. They will also simplify the determination of an appropriate profit rate for a contract by reducing the number of steps in the profit rate calculation from six to four. The SSRO funding adjustment will be abolished, and the adjustment made to ensure that profit is only earned on a contract once will be removed from the profit calculation, to be considered as part of the assessment of allowable costs for contracts.

The regime also applies to single source contracts under which the Secretary of State procures goods, works and services for defence purposes. While the meaning of “defence purposes” is usually clear, there are some cross-Government contracts that are used by both the MOD and other Departments. The amendments clearly set out the circumstances under which such contracts will fall under the regime, striking a careful balance between the need to ensure that prices are fair and avoiding unnecessarily extending the scope of the regime.

Finally, the amendments will clarify and generally tidy up the regulations based on the experience of those who use them, removing ambiguities that have come to light and making them generally easier to apply. We have consulted extensively with our suppliers on the policy underpinning the amendments; I thank them for their contributions, which have led to some useful improvements.

Overall, the amendments are designed to make the regulations easier and quicker to apply in practice. To ease their initial implementation, we will be flexible in the application of the reforms, particularly with the first contracts that use them. For example, we will waive many of the reporting requirements on componentised contracts before the beginning of 2025. We will continue to work with industry to address its specific concerns.

[Maria Eagle (Garston and Halewood) (Lab)]

It is my understanding that the necessary changes in reporting will not come into effect until October, a few months after the rest of the regime, so the Minister has to delay reporting to 2025 anyway, does he not? The law is not going to change until October anyway.

[James Cartlidge]

The right hon. Lady makes a fair point. We are trying to be flexible in introducing these reforms. The regulations cover some incredibly important defence contracts, from nuclear submarines to procurement for urgent operational requirements and so on, so it is good to have that bedding-in period. I think it makes sense to take this approach.

Finally, I draw the Committee’s attention to the correction slip issued in relation to the draft regulations as they were originally laid. This corrects a minor error—no doubt spotted by all members of the Committee—to a cross-reference in regulation 31(d) in the first draft of the regulations. I hope that Members will join me in supporting the regulations, which I commend to the Committee.

--- Later in debate ---

[James Cartlidge]

Thank you, Mrs Murray. My apologies—I have not done one of these Committees for quite a while, because there do not tend to be too many relating to the MOD, so I had forgotten the form.

I am grateful to the right hon. Member for Garston and Halewood, who asked some very good questions. I am more than happy to provide clarification. First, she asked a perfectly valid question about the balance between complexity and flexibility. In such cases I think one should always use a metaphor or a happy comparison. My first ever Adjournment debate as an MP was on part-time season tickets. That was before the pandemic, and I would argue personally that they have now become quite popular. One could argue that we should have a single rail ticket all around the country, but I do not think it would work in practice. The flexibility is a choice, and I think it is welcome to many people, with off-peak tickets and so on. I think that applies here, too. We could try to have a completely uniform regime, but it is a complex business; these contracts cover areas of procurement that are mind-bogglingly complicated, such as nuclear submarines and all the ancillary items that come with them through the supply chain. However, the right hon. Lady makes a fair point.

On the statutory guidance, let me placate the right hon. Lady. Again, she asked a very fair question; we are talking about parliamentary accountability, after all. Draft statutory guidance has been shared extensively with industry, and the formal statutory guidance will be published in four weeks’ time.

[Maria Eagle]

Given that the Minister has shared it with industry, might it not have been an idea to share it with the Committee, so that we could determine whether we are relatively happy with it?

[James Cartlidge]

That is a fair point, which I will reflect on. I shall ensure that the right hon. Lady and all colleagues on the Committee receive copies of the draft guidance as soon as possible, but to be clear, we think that this approach to statutory guidance is a fair one. On a subject of such complexity, if we did not do this, the legislation itself would have to be far more complicated in terms of definitions to ensure clarity for industry, which after all has to implement these relatively complex contracts.

There were some good questions about the SSRO. I have had lots of engagement with the office, which is a highly competent and focused, very professional, relatively small organisation compared with some of those we have in the MOD. It does excellent work and we are always engaging with it on what more we can do together, because this is such an important area. As the right hon. Lady rightly said, arguably it covers 50% of equipment spend and contracts. There is a good reason for that, given the monetary value of some of the big submarine or ship builds. As for resources, the SSRO has made some efficiency savings and has an efficiency target, which I have discussed with it. Those have enabled the office to absorb some extra pressure, which is the best way to deal with it without having to have recourse to further injections of funding. Obviously, we always keep that under review.

The right hon. Lady asked about value for money. Frankly, we could spend all day talking about that, but as we have the Budget later and that will be the theme today, I will not detain colleagues long. I just make the point that the single source procurement regime exists to protect sovereign capability, but that is not its only role. For example, we may be purchasing something at very short notice and there is only one supplier. If we were to competitively let contracts in very sensitive areas, such as nuclear or some of our key naval contracts, there is of course a risk that they would be won by a company that we did not want to win them, so there is no point starting the process in the first place. I think there is a broad consensus on that point. That is why the regime exists and why it has become much more relevant.

The right hon. Lady made some interesting comments about speed, implying that I am a man in a hurry, but I seem to recall that when responding to my statement on acquisition reform she said that we were not going fast enough. We appear to be seeing one of those Leader of the Opposition-style flip-flopping processes under way, which is rather confusing to behold. She did ask a fair question, though: how does this reform fit in with wider reform of procurement? As I announced the other day, our new integrated procurement model is all about the threat we face as a country. We need to procure more quickly, because our competitors in military terms are moving at a frightening pace on some quite extraordinary capabilities that will pose a threat to the United Kingdom.

The purpose of our reforms is to ensure that we have the most effective procurement model, but this will never be completely straightforward, simple or swift; it is a highly complex area of procurement. Were we to undermine the single source regime and make it unfit for purpose, fewer companies would come forward and we would reduce the potentially available supply even further, not only from the big primes but right through the supply chain.

I engage constantly with industry. I had a small and medium-sized enterprise forum in Rosyth last week with Scottish SMEs. The week before I had one of our first engagements with industry at “Secret” in MOD Main Building. For me, that is a critical example of the new system. What it means is that industry is in the room, hearing military secrets of the most sensitive kind—obviously subject to the usual security, which we follow as closely as possible on this side of Europe—ensuring that firms understand what is coming down the track, what our plans are and what the likely security requirements are. That is moving much more quickly than before.

We talk about a three-week implementation time. At the moment, we have got companies in Ukraine that are spiralling capability within days. In that sort of context and with the need for speed because of the military scenario, we should not be afraid of acting swiftly. It is in the national interest.

I take on board the points that the right hon. Lady made. We want to make the regulations effective because they cover arguably the most critical procurements this country makes, in relation particularly to the deterrent, so I am grateful for her support.

[Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab)]

This is not an area that I am that familiar with, but I would like to understand how equivalent this approach is to that of our allies in Europe and the US.

[James Cartlidge]

That is an excellent question, and it is something I have looked into in considerable detail. We want to be confident that our regime is comparable or stands up to scrutiny at least, compared to peers. We are talking about the awarding of enormous amounts of public money without competition, so it is important to get it right. I would say it is arguably more common in Europe than in the UK to have the dominance of one or two nationalised or semi-nationalised defence companies in each country. The area of comparison I looked at was the profit rates. What we would not want is a sense that the profit rate we allowed on a contract was significantly higher. It is very difficult to compare, and the initial information I have seen is difficult to track. As the Committee can imagine, getting data on this sort of sensitive information is difficult, but we are looking at it. It shows, I think, that we are in the same ballpark, broadly, as our European peers.

We are talking about value for money and speed, and those important issues come together. Single source procurement can be an important instrument that is available at the moment in other contexts, and will become increasingly necessary, for example, for very fast procurement into Ukraine or situations in which we feel a supply chain needs to become more resilient because the military threat has heightened. From the MOD’s point of view, this is a really important tool to have available. It covers an enormous amount of very sensitive procurement. I am confident that the regulations will improve the system, but we will constantly engage with industry and colleagues. I will ensure that the right hon. Member for Garston and Halewood receives a copy of the draft statutory guidance and that we issue the full biftas as soon as possible. I am grateful for colleagues’ support.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That the Committee has considered the draft Single Source Contract (Amendment) Regulations 2024.

Defence Acquisition Reform

James Cartlidge Excerpts

Wednesday 28th February 2024 Commons Chamber

[The Minister for Defence Procurement (James Cartlidge)]

With your permission, Mr Deputy Speaker, I would like to make a statement on our plans for reform of the Ministry of Defence’s acquisition system.

Nimrod, Snatch Land Rovers, Ajax, Crowsnest and Morpheus—the narrative of our acquisition system has long been dogged by major programmes that were variously over-complex, over-budget and over-time. Of course, military procurement is inherently complex, and external factors—supply-chain disruption in particular—have caused delays across the board that are likely to continue hitting programmes for the time being.

It is also true that our system has excelled at procuring vast quantities of ordnance into Ukraine. We have not stood still. We have been identifying and addressing systemic issues that impact on delivery, we have been driving pace and agility through streamlined processes and increasing the capability and capacity of our senior responsible owners, and, over the last six years, Defence Equipment and Support has come a long way in its internal reform efforts.

None the less, the long-standing weaknesses of defence acquisition are well known. They include a tendency for exquisite procurement—potentially too bespoke to export, leaving industrial capacity vulnerable—and, as Sheldon’s Ajax report assessed, personnel wary of speaking up as problems emerge. In my view, the most significant issue is a model of delegated authority implemented after Lord Levene’s 2011 report, which was supposed to drive financial responsibility but instead makes prioritisation hard to achieve in practice. With budgets under strain from inflation, the result is inevitable—what we call “over-programming” where, in the absence of effective prioritisation, too many projects are chasing a finite amount of funding. Inadvertently, that drives competition between the three single services, each vying to get their programme on contract, knowing that funding is oversubscribed. Such over-programming can only be dealt with in one way: delay, shifting programmes to the right to make the books balance.

None of those problems compares with the most compelling reason for reform. In a world where our adversaries are threatening to out-compete us in capability terms, we have no choice but to reform acquisition, or we will see our military competitiveness diminished. Ukraine has shown that today’s battlespace is highly contested, and integrated operations are essential. In 2021 we announced the integrated operating concept, recognising the military need for an integrated concept of operations but maintaining a delegated procurement system. Today, I announce our new integrated procurement model, in a world where multi-domain communications are critical and data integration is paramount. At the same time, our kit must be secure, with key elements made in the UK, and we must prioritise procuring enablers alongside the shiny new platform that cannot work without them.

What does that mean in practice? There will be five key features of our new approach. First, it will be joined up, with procurement anchored in pan-defence affordability rather than ad hoc silos that are vulnerable to over-programming. A key example will be our pending munitions strategy—a top priority given our need to replenish weapons stocks to war fighting levels. Pan-defence prioritisation of munitions procurement will be driven not only by the hard reality of the greatest threats we face, but by the scale of demand signal required for always-on production—the optimal outcome for both military and industry.

Secondly, we will have new checks and balances to challenge assumptions at the outset of programmes. Specifically, our new integration design authority, based within strategic command, will be empowered to ensure that our new approach is adopted in practice. If requirements lack a plan for data integration or accompanying enablers, the proposal will be sent back. The authority will also be able to monitor programmes where opportunities may arise, such as to better harness Al or novel technologies.

Meanwhile, in the MOD’s largely civilian sphere, a defence-wide portfolio approach will bring together all the expertise at our disposal to enable properly informed choices and decisions on priorities. The aim will be to provide a credible second opinion for Ministers to weigh alongside the military’s proposed requirements. In particular, there will be a far stronger role for our brilliant scientists at the Defence Science and Technology Laboratory to focus on technological viability. Experts will be tasked with market analysis and prioritising advice on industrial options, ensuring that we make the best informed decision on whether to go for off the shelf, sovereign manufacture or somewhere in between. To avoid new oversight leading simply to more red tape, the reform takes place hand in hand with defence design, aimed at streamlining our internal processes.

The third key feature is prioritising exportability, which will now be considered in-depth from the very outset of programmes, to maximise the potential market for a given capability and, therefore, drive British industrial resilience. That is why one of the key expert voices will be our export specialists. At the moment, their primary focus is on export campaigns, largely for mature products. However, I want that expertise to be embedded within the MOD’s acquisition process from the beginning, giving us robust data to quantify the risk that bespoke requirements might create a delta between our needs and international demand. Above all, that means that our international export campaigns can commence at a far earlier point in the product life cycle.

The fourth feature of our new approach is to empower industrial innovation. We have already started our radical new venture of engaging industry at secret, to give the strongest possible understanding of our future requirements. My aim is to embed this approach throughout procurement, driving the deepest possible relationship with industry, to enable entrepreneurial innovation to flourish and our supply chains to become more resilient. A more holistic supplier management approach will complement that by enabling the Department to speak with a clearer voice regarding priorities once on contract.

Fifthly, we will pursue spiral development by default—seeking 60% to 80% of the possible, rather than striving for perfection. For such spiral programmes we will abolish initial operating capability and full operating capability. Instead of IOC or FOC, there will be MDC—the minimum deployable capability. There will have to be exceptions, but we have set new default time targets for programmes: three years for digital and five for platforms. This is all about pace, but to achieve pace we need the right people: capable senior responsible owners, operating in an environment of psychological safety. As such, and given the emphasis on our people and psychological safety, I am pleased to report that we believe we have now implemented all 24 recommendations of the Sheldon review.

Finally, how will this systematic change be implemented? I said to the Defence Committee that our plan was to launch our new model in the next financial year. From the second week of April, the integration design authority will formally deliver its new oversight function in support of the integrated procurement model. For major new programmes starting after that date, newly formed expert advice will be made available to Ministers, ensuring that we thrash out all the hard issues at the beginning of a major procurement, locking down the key policy decisions so that our SROs and commercial functions can deliver at pace from then. For contractual reasons, existing programmes will continue under their current procurement mode, but on 8 April we will publish our new spiral development playbook so that existing programmes that can adopt spiral features will be empowered to do so.

On exportability, yesterday I published the next stage of our new medium helicopter competition, which includes a strong weighting for exports to ensure that the high-quality rotary work that it will support in the UK is sustainable in the long term. Such an approach to weighting exportability, where appropriate, will become the default from 8 April. From that date, our three and five-year targets will apply to new programmes, including top priority pending procurements, such as the mobile fires platform. Ukraine has shown how close combat artillery remains critical to warfighting. We will now accelerate that crucial acquisition, exemplifying our new approach whereby we will order critical enablers in parallel to the platform itself, particularly ammunition. Ukraine has also shown the importance of drones. Uncrewed systems will form the first overall category of pipe cleaner for the integrated procurement model from end to end. Alongside this statement,

I am today publishing a short guidance note explaining the nuts and bolts of our new acquisition approach. Copies will be placed in the Library, and will be available in the Vote Office after I have sat down. The current environment in which we find ourselves—war in Europe—has made it impossible to ignore the urgent need for change. I commend this statement to the House.

[Maria Eagle (Garston and Halewood) (Lab)]

Let me begin by thanking the Minister for his statement and for early sight of it.

Defence procurement matters. It provides the vital kit that our forces need to fight, as well as supporting hundreds of thousands of UK jobs. We need to get this right as a nation, both for our national security and for economic growth. However, defence procurement is a mess. It needs deep and major reform. The Public Accounts Committee describes it as

“broken and repeatedly wasting taxpayers’ money.”

It has been a mess for the last 14 years. Since 2010, the Conservatives have wasted £15 billion of taxpayers’ money through mismanagement of defence procurement programmes; £5 billion has been wasted in this Parliament alone. With 46 of 52 major projects not on time or on budget, this Government are failing British forces and British taxpayers.

Time and again, this Government have been criticised for poor performance on defence procurement. There have been 17 National Audit Office reports on procurement in the MOD since 2019, four reports by the Defence Committee and eight reports by the Public Accounts Committee. They have all been critical—some highly critical—of this Government. It is right that the Minister proposes some changes—we welcome that. He mentioned Ajax; can he explain how his proposals would have stopped the disasters of the Ajax procurement? That was supposed to see vehicles in service in 2017, but now they will not be on operational deployment until 2026. More than £4 billion has been spent, but just 44 vehicles have been delivered to date. That is 70% of the budget spent for 7% of the vehicles ordered. That cannot be described as good value for money.

The MOD’s Command Paper refresh, which sets out the policy for acquisition reform, does not even tackling waste or value for money, so how would the Minister’s proposed changes stop what happened to the E-7 Wedgetail procurement? That programme, vital to enabling the UK to meet our NATO commitments, was cut from five planes to three by a ministerial decision to save money, but the changes mean that the RAF gets only 60% of the capability it wants while paying 90% of the original price. The Minister mentioned Morpheus. How would his proposals stop cost overruns, such as those that occurred in the Morpheus communication system procurement? That £395 million contract, awarded in 2017, was cancelled just before Christmas having delivered nothing at a cost of £690 million. It leaves our forces in the field having to use the ageing Bowman system for another decade.

As the Minister said in his statement, he has just announced the invitation to negotiate on the new medium helicopter. It has taken him since September 2022, when that announcement was first expected, and three subsequent delays to get the announcement finally made. Why has it taken so long and how will his integrated procurement model prevent delay after delay to expected invitations to negotiate? He expects the contract to be signed in 2025. Does it really take three years to invite negotiations and write contract specifications? Will his new integrated procurement model speed that up, or will it slow things down at the front end?

How does the Minister’s announcement today tackle the waste, poor value for money and delays that appear endemic in the current MOD procurement system? He says the new integrated procurement model will be implemented this year in respect of new procurements, but when does he actually expect to see better value and faster, less wasteful procurements? He talks about procurement anchored in pan-defence affordability, but his 10-year equipment plan is already £17 billion over budget. What adjustments will be made on that?

The long-standing failures on procurement in the MOD matter in an increasingly dangerous world. They send a message, just as over the past 14 years the Government’s hollowing out of our armed forces, creating a recruitment crisis and shrinking the Army to its smallest size since the Napoleonic era, send signals to our adversaries. Labour believes that defence procurement can strengthen UK sovereignty, security and economic growth. Defence procurement reform will be a top priority for a Labour Government to ensure that our troops have the kit they need to fight and to fulfil our NATO obligations.

[James Cartlidge]

I am grateful to the right hon. Lady for her comments. Some issues are above party politics and playing politics, especially when we look at the threat we face and our need for more competitive military procurement, but she is aware, for all she said, that we have seen a one-year reduction in procurement time from December 2020 to December 2022. There have been extraordinary efforts in DE&S in particular to get equipment into Ukraine. We should never understate the way we have gifted our own stocks and scoured the world to find an enormous amount of munitions, not least 300,000 artillery shells. That is very positive procurement and in the hour of need as far as Ukraine is concerned.

The right hon. Lady asked a perfectly fair question. Obviously, we cannot say how any of the measures would have worked in the past, but let me take one of her hypothetical questions: how would Ajax—the key example, given the Sheldon report—have been helped? I can only speculate, but the emphasis on exportability, for example, will be robust and from the start of programmes. That applies more pressure where requirements are overly exquisite, because it will be balanced out by international demand. The reason we want to promote exportability is ultimately to strengthen the resilience of our industrial base. Our market is not big enough. If we have that check in place, it will reduce the tendency towards the exquisite.

Secondly, we will have a new set-up in terms of the expert advice we receive at the beginning—the second opinion, as I call it—in particular from scientists at the Defence Science and Technology Laboratory, export experts at the Department for Business and Trade, and our own civil servants on finance and so on. We will have very clear advice, which will look at the technical issues around potential platforms. At the moment, to be frank—I appreciate this is only possible to say from internal knowledge—we do not get that level of balance and challenge against the primary requirement coming forward from the frontline command.

The right hon. Lady asked how the new model would apply to the new medium helicopter and whether it would add time at the beginning. I cannot comment on the specifics of NMH, because it is commercially sensitive, but talking in generality, I would trade more time at the beginning, thrashing out the big issues, working out and locking down the policy on, for example, industrial production, so that those issues do not find themselves being reopened later. Of course, I am talking generically and not about specific programmes, but if such things are not locked down, there is a real habit of them coming back later and creating the biggest delay, putting the programme in question. So, that is crucial.

Finally, the right hon. Lady asks about the affordability issue in the equipment plan, which I think is the most important part. I spoke about the munitions strategy. We could simply ask the single services to come forward with their priorities for new munitions, but the best way is to look robustly at the threat we face. That is the most important issue: to work back from that and prioritise at a pan-defence level the most urgent requirements for new munitions. I think many people would think that that is common sense, but it has not necessarily been how the system has worked.

Let me finish by saying that perhaps the most positive experience I have had as the Minister for Defence Procurement was visiting one of our small and medium-sized enterprises, which was bringing forward a drone we were using in Ukraine. It was receiving data from the frontline and, based on that data, spirally developing the platform within days to go back into service so it was competitive against the threat it was facing. I want to create a constant loop between industry and the MOD, where we are sharing data and frontline knowledge, so that we have a far more rapid period of technological innovation. The equipment plan, which was very static over 10 years, will look like an old fashioned way of doing things. The priority is to get technology into the hands of the military. That will increasingly be on the software basis and that is how we strengthen our armed forces overall.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

I call the Chair of the Defence Committee.

[Sir Jeremy Quin (Horsham) (Con)]

I congratulate the Minister on the statement, which looks to the future. There is a lot in it to commend. In particular, it is absolutely right to focus on data collection and making certain we are AI-ready. I am delighted about DSTL’s enhanced role, which was one of the learnings from Ajax, and I am pleased that all the recommendations of the Sheldon report are being taken forward.

On closer industrial working at secret and exportability, that is entirely consistent with the defence security industrial strategy. That is absolutely welcome and a very positive sign. Above all, I am delighted with the emphasis on spiral development and the new concept of the MDC. We all know the benefits of that: getting something that is right and appropriate on to the frontline where it can be spirally developed is good for industry—it sees the drumbeat of orders—and good for the services, which do not need to think they are going to get everything in one bite. It is all positive.

The only thing I would ask is that we should not forget the basics. The Minister referred to this in his statement, but SROs who have enough bandwidth, support, and time and length on a project are absolutely critical, as is a culture in which they can experiment, and if something ain’t working, they should be able to pull stumps. That should not be a source of shame, but an inevitable consequence of being forward-leaning, modern and experimental. They should say, “This isn’t working; reinvest the cash elsewhere.” That should be commended when SROs come to the Minister with that kind of circumstance.

[James Cartlidge]

I am very grateful to the Chairman of the Select Committee; he is absolutely right. Let me take those two points. On the importance of SROs, the biggest issue we face, ironically, for all the talk about technology, is people—that is across the economy in many ways and across the public sector. Yes, we want to empower SROs. There are some brilliant SROs in the Department and it has been a pleasure to work with them. I stress that I think we are now at the point where 90% of SROs spend at least 50% of their time solely on one project. That is very positive.

On my right hon. Friend’s point about cultural change, let me be frank. We can publish all the strategies we want, but if they are not delivered and do not change the culture, they will not have the effect on output that we want.

Let me return to my drone example. My right hon. Friend spoke about the need to learn from failure, which is how many of the greatest entrepreneurs in the world have succeeded. On the day of my visit to the SME that was developing a highly effective drone to be used on the frontline, the people there had received bad news, but crucially, they took that bad news, they spiralled the platform, they learnt from it, and they made sure that when it went out again it was competitive. That is the key to the system.

[Martyn Day (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (SNP)]

I thank the Minister for advance sight of his statement, and for his honesty in detailing the complexity and difficulties involved in defence procurement. I wish him every success with the proposals that he has outlined.

Back in December, a National Audit Office report stated that the MOD faced a £16.9 billion black hole in equipment funding. I did not hear any mention in the statement of how that would be addressed, and I fear that it may not be covered in the Budget, so perhaps the Minister could enlighten me. Will he also tell me whether he can guarantee that we will able to meet the requirement for essential contributions to both NATO and Ukraine during this time of conflict?

Also missing from the statement were any details of the post-Brexit defence sector labour shortages—how do the Government plan to address those shortages in order to support the sector?—and any reference to parliamentary scrutiny, especially with regard to the nuclear programme. What assurances can the Minister give that the programme will be scrutinised by the Defence Committee and by Parliament? Also, given that we are working with allies to support Ukraine, which I welcome, do we not now need a mechanism such as a comprehensive defence security treaty with the European Union to further that?

There is a considerable emphasis on prioritising exportability. Do the Government acknowledge that arms exports and procurement programmes with the state of Israel could make us complicit in war crimes? That is a concern for many members of the public, and I would be grateful for the Minister’s comments on it.

[James Cartlidge]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for the broad thrust of his comments. Let me deal with them in reverse order, beginning with his point about arms exports. As he knows, we have strong and robust rules, and we do of course follow them. We keep all our existing export rules and priorities under review. He mentioned nuclear parliamentary scrutiny. I responded to two successive Adjournment debates on nuclear matters that had been initiated by Scottish colleagues. I also appeared before the Defence Committee recently, when I spoke as openly as I could about the highly sensitive issue of the recent certification of our nuclear submarine, HMS Vanguard.

The hon. Gentleman mentioned the lack of a labour supply from the EU. Let me gently say to him that when I speak to defence companies, I see a real willingness to invest in apprenticeships so that we can grow our own UK workforce, and I think that that is what we all want to see. On the equipment plan, the hon. Gentleman made the same point as the right hon. Member for Garston and Halewood (Maria Eagle). The equipment plan is a moment in time. It is a huge programme over 10 years, and only a minority of it—perhaps 25% or 30%—is actually on contract. What that is showing is, effectively, the aspiration for programmes in the future. There will be other programmes, not on contract, that we will not pull out of and that we will be expected to be part of, but there is room for flexibility.

For me, the purpose of this acquisition reform is to inform that process on the basis of what matters most of all: data from the frontline and war gaming data—on what is happening in Ukraine and on our own war gaming—informing spiral and technological development. That is the way forward, and I think it will be a far more flexible process than taking very rigid views.

[Philip Dunne (Ludlow) (Con)]

I remind the House of my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests.

I commend my hon. Friend for the remarkable pace at which he has got to grips with the challenges of acquisition in defence. He has not been in post for very long, but he has brought intellectual rigour to those challenges, which some of us have been trying to do for a while. I also endorse everything that was said by the Chair of the Select Committee, my right hon. Friend the Member for Horsham (Sir Jeremy Quin), who is an expert on these issues. I am particularly pleased that he has sought to bring the learning from the current conflict in Ukraine back into our own system here in the UK. Other countries are learning how to adapt their acquisition systems rapidly, and we need to do the same.

I completely endorse the integrated procurement model. Its precursors were in the complex weapons programme, which has been running for more than 10 years. I think the fact that my hon. Friend has referred to it in the current contract that he announced yesterday for the next stage of the competition for the medium helicopter lift is a good example of that. He spoke about introducing agility, about exportability and about innovation. Many of us have been pushing the MOD to proceed with all those developments. The spiral development and, in particular, the move from an initial and a final operator capability to a minimum deployable should have a huge impact on the acceleration of processes.

SROs have been referred to. If my hon. Friend can consider extending terms— double or triple terms—for service personnel and key civil servants in that role, he will assist enormously in retaining knowledge within the system.

--- Later in debate ---

[James Cartlidge]

It is a privilege to take a question like that from the former Minister for Defence Procurement, who followed another former Minister for Defence Procurement—the Chairman of the Select Committee. I hope that my right hon. Friend does not mind my repeating what he said to me privately when I got the job. At that time, he made the same point about the importance of SROs’ spending as long as possible in their roles, which was also in the Sheldon report. Obviously there is an employment law issue—in the sense that we cannot insist on that—but I have referred to statistics which show that we are investing more in SROs, in the Army in particular.

My right hon. Friend spoke of learning lessons from Ukraine—he is absolutely right. One lesson that I have been struck by is the importance of understanding electronic warfare, jamming and interference, and the way in which the battle space has changed. That is why I keep emphasising the importance in our system of securing data from the front and from war gaming to inform procurement.

My right hon. Friend made an important point about the complex weapons programme. This involves a portfolio approach that should lead to more agile commercial relationships, enabling a better demand signal to industry, which drives its investment, but also allows us to take a nimbler approach when dealing with industry.

[Simon Lightwood (Wakefield) (Lab/Co-op)]

Is it is right for the Minister to seek to reform a defence procurement system that the Public Accounts Committee has described as “broken”? The shadow Secretary of State, my right hon. Friend the Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey), has just delivered a speech to Policy Exchange, in which he set out that a future Labour Government will create a national armaments director to co-ordinate and oversee defence procurement. Why have this Government not done that in the last 14 years?

[James Cartlidge]

It is interesting to hear what the hon. Gentleman has just been WhatsApped by the Labour Whips Office, but I am happy to share what is happening in the real world if he wants to hear it. Andy Start, who runs Defence Equipment and Support, is an excellent national armaments director. He has been out leading trade fairs in Ukraine, he has led reform in DE&S, and above all, at a time of war in Europe, he has overseen DE&S, particularly in Abbey Wood, getting equipment out to Ukraine and helping to keep it in the fight.

[Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh and Wickford) (Con)]

Forgive me, Sir, but—Yes! [Laughter.] I have waited for years to hear an MOD Minister issue this statement, and this very good Minister has done just that. It is true that the Public Accounts Committee said that the procurement system was broken, and last summer the Defence Committee endorsed that in a report, produced by a Sub-Committee that I chaired, entitled “It is broke—and it’s time to fix it”. Well, I take this to be the “fix it” or “put right” plan. I welcome it, and in particular the sense of urgency that goes with it. Given that the Defence Secretary has told us that we now live in a pre-war rather than a post-war world, we must do this sooner and, crucially, faster. The proof of the pudding will be in the eating, but can the Minister assure me and the whole House that the sense of urgency that I mentioned will be at the centre of this, and that he and Andy Start will now get on with it?

[James Cartlidge]

I am honoured by my right hon. Friend. We enjoy our robust exchanges, but that was an example that I shall particularly remember.

The phrase “a sense of urgency” is, I think, what the public want to hear. Important as today’s exchanges are, this is really serious; it is above politics. This is about the fact that our adversaries are ramping up their procurement and their technology—frankly, in some instances, at a frightening pace. That is why embracing the deep relationship with industry, the constant feedback loop on data from the frontline and from war gaming, is so crucial. I think the Committee has an important role in this regard. I set out our intention in my statement, but for it to be embedded we will have a key set of milestones that will enable us, if we work together, to show that it is being implemented; if we can do that together, we can put the pressure on to ensure that it becomes manifest.

[Richard Foord (Tiverton and Honiton) (LD)]

I would like to pick up on the point about urgency. We have seen what the UK is capable of in defence acquisition from urgent capability requirements or, previously, urgent operational requirements. These harness the ingenuity of British industry and combine it with the professionalism of the British armed forces personnel. They remove bureaucracy, focus on the capability rather than detailed specifications, and deliver amazing equipment in very short timescales. A great example is the Jackal, the all-terrain mobility platform that was developed at Dunkeswell in my Honiton constituency. How much is the new integrated procurement model informed by the UCR process?

[James Cartlidge]

On matters of defence procurement, it always strikes me how many former service personnel will raise the issue of urgent operational requirements or whatever else we call them, whatever variation of the acronym. The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to stress their importance. They are not something that can be used at scale for the whole procurement system, but in specific, urgent areas they are critical, and we will continue to use them. I am considering them in a couple of sensitive areas, which obviously I cannot talk about further, but he makes an excellent point. By the way, the Jackal is an excellent platform. My first trade mission on exports was to the Czech Republic, and the Jackal was there. I was proud to receive glowing reviews about it from the defence select committee there.

[James Sunderland (Bracknell) (Con)]

I, too, welcome today’s statement and the bold strategy, so I thank the Minister. We had a conversation yesterday in which I suggested that we needed an arbiter of good taste within strat comms. I am delighted to see the IDA now being formed, which should allow for a bit of rigour, with tri-service interest. May I make a point about how we can further reform acquisition? To my mind, if we are serious about not writing cheques that we cannot cash, and about financial rigour, discipline and planning, we need to be making procurement teams responsible for the entire capability throughout lifecycle. May I please leave that with the Minister? I am being mischievous, but it is a seed I want to sow.

[James Cartlidge]

My hon. Friend has also served and has great expertise in logistics and these matters. In many ways, that is the portfolio approach: having teams within MOD who are focused on a particular capability, potentially cutting across the frontline commands and the stovepipe approach. It has been particularly useful for complex weapons. In effect, as I have said, we will be using that with drones and uncrewed systems, but I am happy to look into it further.

I am also glad that my hon. Friend stresses the importance of the IDA in strat comms. Just to be clear, this is about having a way of calling out issues that I suspect and hope are not commonplace, but having that presence there will hopefully lead to cultural change, which is the key thing we want to see, so that we get into the habit whereby when we procure, we are looking at not just the platform but whether it has the key enablers. If we get the basics right, we will set programmes up for success.

[Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con)]

I welcome my hon. Friend’s statement. He outlined several changes, and I am sure that his emphasis on people is absolutely correct. Procurement is not just a matter of systems, but about how they are implemented and who implements them, and the culture within teams is important too. Specification changes drive complexity, cost and delay. Does my hon. Friend agree that removing delay from the programmes is critical because, if for no other reason, the international security situation demands it?

[James Cartlidge]

My hon. Friend, who speaks with great expertise from significant ministerial experience, makes an excellent point. I agree with him wholeheartedly. There has been some debate about the issue of to what extent we can lock requirements so that they do not get changed, because it is a frustration. My sense, which I tried to share earlier, is that what we need to lock at the beginning are the top-level political decisions—for example, around the type of manufacture, be it sovereign, off the shelf or some combination thereof, which I think one could argue is the case for the New Medium Helicopter. If we do that, our SROs, officials and commercial teams will feel empowered, so that they can get on and rush to the finish line.

[Sir Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on his excellent statement. What training and professional development will be put in place to underpin the new policy? What he is describing is a wholesale transformation of culture, attitude and behaviour that is required in the Ministry of Defence, particularly around the pace, the people and the leadership of teams. This will not be achieved unless there is a concerted effort to change the culture and to implement a change programme in MOD and the armed forces that will underpin what he is seeking to achieve.

[James Cartlidge]

I am very grateful to my constituency neighbour—another Essex MP with a great passion for defence procurement reform. We have discussed it at length. He is absolutely right to emphasise the importance of training. A lot of this is already starting to happen and come to fruition, and I can give him an example. I referred to a meeting with industry at “Secret”. I attended one such meeting in Main Building, where Mil Cap, who is in charge of military capability in MOD, and I sat with a wide number of defence industry representatives and spoke to them. The thing that enthused them was that, because we were at “Secret”, we were able to share as sensitively as possible our future plans. A lot of what I am saying is about building on work that is ongoing, particularly at DNS, for example. But my hon. Friend is right: if we want to make this work, we have to have the people and they have to have the training.

[Chris Loder (West Dorset) (Con)]

My hon. Friend will know full well that I am a huge advocate of Leonardo Helicopters in the neighbouring Yeovil constituency, which is the home of British helicopters as the only end-to-end helicopter supply chain manufacturer in the United Kingdom. I welcome today’s statement, and I very much welcome his statement earlier in the week about the New Medium Helicopter procurement, but could he briefly outline how organisations such as Leonardo Helicopters, which employs thousands of people in south Somerset and West Dorset, might benefit from his statement today?

[James Cartlidge]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. He is a champion of the rotary industry, which supports so many jobs in his constituency. It is thanks to the championing of that interest by him and other colleagues who have constituency interests in the procurement that it is moving forward as it is. Obviously it is a competition, so we have to be even-handed and recognise that all three companies have their strengths, but I would emphasise two points about that procurement. First, there is a strong emphasis on UK industrial contribution, particularly in design work. That is the most important work, and it is what we want to see in the UK.

Secondly, there is the huge weighting for exportability. As far as I am aware, Type 31 is the only other such procurement where we have had a weighting for exportability. I want that to be the default so that my hon. Friend can say to his constituents that, because of his campaigning, this procurement will give a strong weighting to UK jobs and prosperity.

[James Wild (North West Norfolk) (Con)]

Defence procurement has been a work in progress since Samuel Pepys, and I welcome the latest reforms. One issue when I was in the Ministry of Defence and then on the Public Accounts Committee was that SROs are in place for a fraction of the contract life cycle. Will the Minister ensure that longer terms apply across all programmes, not just those in the Army? How will the much-needed reforms help get better value for money, particularly for contracts that are awarded without competition?

[James Cartlidge]

My hon. Friend makes an important point about Samuel Pepys. My diplomatic answer would be that defence procurement has perhaps been subject to spiral development for longer than we think. My hon. Friend makes an important point about value for money, particularly for single source. I stress that the changes will come into force at the same time as we are also reforming single source regulations. I will soon have the great pleasure of bringing forward a statutory instrument, which will make a number of changes to single source regulations to ensure that they are optimised. They are a good way of ensuring that the inevitable single source procurement that we will always have in defence, not least in highly sensitive areas or where there is one specialist supplier, is as effective as possible. He makes a very good point.

[Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con)]

I welcome the statement, particularly the new thinking around factoring exports for the future into defence acquisition and procurement. I thank the Minister for his recent visit to Shropshire. Would he like to put on the record his thanks to all the fantastic defence engineers—men, women and apprentices—who work at Rheinmetall BAE Systems Land and the defence support group Babcock, which are delivering for defence and keeping us safe at home and abroad? Would he perhaps like to hint at new jobs and new contracts in Shropshire up to 2030?

[James Cartlidge]

My right hon. Friend is an absolute champion of defence jobs in his constituency in Shropshire. I was delighted to visit RBSL in Telford, which is making not only Boxer but Challenger 3, two of the three key components of our future armoured combat battlegroups. It was a pleasure to meet the apprentices and other workers, and to see the reality behind those jobs that we often talk of as statistics. Babcock is also an important employer in his constituency. I will say to him that the opportunity will be there not only through our own procurement but through putting exportability at the heart of procurement, to ensure that we sustain our industrial base for as long as possible by giving it the widest possible market.

Ukraine: Military Equipment

James Cartlidge Excerpts

Tuesday 27th February 2024 Commons Chamber

[Bob Seely (Isle of Wight) (Con)]

(Urgent Question): To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will make a statement on international supplies of military equipment and ammunition to Ukraine.

[The Minister for Defence Procurement (James Cartlidge)]

The UK has been leading international support for the armed forces of Ukraine for 10 years since Russia first invaded Crimea in 2014, training more than 60,000 new recruits since 2015 and committing almost £12 billion in economic, humanitarian and military aid since 2022. From the UK-founded, UK-administered international fund for Ukraine, which has pledged more than £900 million, to spearheading capability coalitions, our efforts have paved the way and made a genuine difference. Our NLAW anti-tank missiles and our Javelins helped brave Ukrainians to devastate Putin’s menacing 40-mile armoured convoy, which was headed for Kyiv. We were the first to send main battle tanks with our Challenger squadron, plus 500 armoured vehicles and 15,000 anti-armour weapons.

Last week the Defence Secretary announced to this House a new package of 200 Brimstone anti-tank missiles, plus £245 million for artillery munitions. The UK will also co-lead an international capability coalition, alongside Latvia, to supply cutting-edge drones to Ukraine, in addition to the UK’s co-leadership of the international maritime capability coalition. The Defence Secretary has urged partners and allies to commit to long-term support for Ukraine. At the NATO Defence Ministers’ meeting on 15 February, the Defence Secretary and his counterparts from 14 NATO allies and Sweden signed an agreement on two new multinational procurement initiatives focusing on munitions and missiles. Spearheaded by the UK, these initiatives aim to increase defence industrial capacity across the Euro-Atlantic area, replenish stockpiles at pace and continue support to Ukraine.

[Bob Seely]

I commend the Government for their impressive record, but does the Minister accept that the equipment pledged by NATO nations is not reaching Ukraine in anything like the amounts promised? Does he accept, for example, that less than a third of the 1 million shells promised by EU nations have arrived, that more than 300 artillery barrels will reach the end of their productive life this year, that very few pilots are being trained and that the Ukrainians are perilously short of air defence? This is at a time when the Russians are on a war footing, with 40% of all their Government spending geared towards the destruction of the Ukrainian state.

Specifically, may I ask whether Defence Intelligence and the Government reckon that the Ukrainians will be able to hold their current positions, and if so, for how long? When will artillery stocks run even lower and fall off a cliff edge? Will the Minister confirm that we have delivered on all our pledges? I was in east Ukraine last week. Does he understand that, after the obliteration of the frontline town of Avdiivka, the Ukrainians are now asking which of their towns will be the next to be destroyed by Russian artillery, while Ukrainian soldiers die because they lack kit? Finally, does he accept that the situation is becoming acutely dangerous for everybody, with the forces of fascism beginning to overpower free states and their NATO allies? Where does he believe we might be with security throughout Europe in the next few months?

[James Cartlidge]

I am extremely grateful to my hon. Friend and I pay tribute to him and all parliamentarians who have visited Ukraine and shown our solidarity and support for our ally. I know that he has a background as an officer in the Intelligence Corps, so he speaks not only with the passion we all share but with significant expertise on these matters. He will therefore be aware that there is a limit to what I can say on the operational situation and being drawn into trying to estimate the level of supplies. These are all sensitive and important points.

I think we can all agree that what my hon. Friend says about air support and training is important. I was at RAF Valley recently and, as I understand it, we are providing 26 Ukrainians with elementary flying training. We are flying the F-16 and we have Typhoon F-35s, while other countries will be providing the actual platforms. He is absolutely right to say that air defence is a critical part of the conflict and we need to supply more. We have provided over 1,000 air defence systems but we want to do more.

On the overall position, as I have said, we cannot provide a running commentary on the exact operational situation, but we provide regular tweets sharing what intelligence we can. Fundamentally, my hon. Friend is right to warn all of us, and indeed our allies, of the risk, were the situation to be reversed. We can say with some certainty that when the war started, we would all have been surprised to be in this situation with Ukraine having won back so much territory and, frankly, remained in the fight. That is thanks in a huge part to the role of the United Kingdom, and we should be proud of that.

As the Secretary of State confirmed in his recent oral statement, we provided NLAWs before Russia invaded and have been training Ukrainians since 2014—60,000 in total—but I know there is more to do. My hon. Friend has a very good understanding of these matters. These capability coalitions—one on drones and the other on maritime— are a good way to turn the support that has been provided into targeted and effective capability on the frontline. We are clear that we need to do more, and our allies need to stay with us in the fight.

[Mr Speaker]

I call the shadow Minister.

[Luke Pollard (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Lab/Co-op)]

As we mark two years since Vladimir Putin’s brutal, illegal invasion began, it should be a source of pride to all in this House that the UK remains totally united and committed to supporting Ukraine. We must continue to stand with the Ukrainian people for as long as it takes for them to win.

On military help for Ukraine and on reinforcing our NATO allies, the UK Government have had, and will continue to have, Labour’s fullest support. At yesterday’s opening of the Paris summit, to shore up support for Ukraine, western leaders rightly made it clear that Russia is far from a spent force and that Putin will not stop at Ukraine if he wins. As Russia steps up its war effort, we must step up our support, and so must Ukraine’s other allies. Labour welcomes the 200 extra Brimstone anti-tank missiles and the £245 million artillery munitions package for Ukraine, which the Government announced this weekend.

Ministers favour ad hoc announcements over a fuller military aid plan for Ukraine, but how can industry invest and mobilise with confidence without a long-term plan to work against? On stepping up western support for Ukraine, how are we co-ordinating with our NATO allies to ensure that our munitions support provides Ukraine with the urgent and sustained help it needs? Of the £2.5 billion announced for 2024, can the Minister confirm how much is being spent on Ukraine and how much is being spent on UK operational costs at NATO bases?

Given the importance of the Paris summit for Ukraine, why was the Prime Minister unable to attend the event, unlike other key western leaders? There could be a change in Government this year, but there will be no change in Britain’s resolve to stand with Ukraine, to confront Russian aggression and to pursue Putin for his war crimes.

[James Cartlidge]

I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman for continuing to show solidarity, for the consensus that exists across the House and, in particular, for specifically mentioning the Brimstone gifting and the £245 million recently announced for artillery munitions.

The hon. Gentleman talks about our longer-term plan. Just to be clear, the war is happening today and the key focus of the £2.5 billion for Ukraine this financial year is getting support into the country as soon as possible, which is when they need it. Of course, we want to have a long-term plan too. I am clear that the UK will play a very significant role in helping Ukraine, when it is fully free, to get back to the level of prosperity it expects. For now, we have to focus on what is a very challenging situation.

Drones are one of the most important capabilities we have seen in Ukraine, and they have arguably transformed the nature of warfare in this conflict. Last week I was pleased to announce our own uncrewed strategy and, in doing so, I talked about the Malloy T150 drone, which has done an incredible job, lifting blood, munitions and other key supplies to Ukrainian marines on the bank of the Dnieper. We have provided 4,000 drones to Ukraine, and we will keep doing that—we have the £200 million. Yes, it is about shells and munitions, but we also have to provide a way to fight with them; we have to assist to ensure that we deliver that capability, which is why those coalitions are so important.

I am glad that the hon. Gentleman supports us in the round, and we are sending a message that this House is united in supporting Ukraine.

[Mr Speaker]

I call the Father of the House.

[Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con)]

The Minister says the training started in 2014, which is the year after the House took, in my view, the wrong decision in the Syria vote; it led to Russia giving help to Assad, the taking of Crimea, the infiltration of eastern Ukraine and various other problems.

As Ukraine’s security is, in effect, our security and that of our NATO allies, will he confirm that we will do all we can to try to make sure that Ukraine is safe and that Russia, at some stage, returns to being a peaceful nation devoted to the prosperity of its own people, rather than doing down other people?

[James Cartlidge]

My hon. Friend makes an excellent point and he is absolutely right to say that their security is our security. We need to support Ukraine, because it is morally the right thing to do to support a free country that has been illegally invaded. We should also be clear that it is in our strategic interests and those of all of our democratic allies to do so, because we do not want to see an emboldened Russia, not least because of the impact that could have on other potential adversaries.

[Mr Speaker]

I call the Scottish National party spokesperson.

[Drew Hendry (Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey) (SNP)]

Ukraine is on the frontline, not only of its own battles, but of those of international democracy and law. We cannot leave the Ukrainians without in a time of need. Their fight is our fight, so let us look at what the UK Government can do. We must not allow Putin’s plan to wait until the international community loses interest to succeed. Will the UK Government prepare an International Criminal Court case against Russia for its bombardment of civilians in Ukraine? What more can the UK Government do to ensure the safety of Ukrainian skies, and to ensure a united and collective western effort in continued support of Ukraine?

[James Cartlidge]

Once again, I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s support and that of the SNP in ensuring that we have this strong consensus across the House in support of the Ukrainians. As he said, their fight is our fight—I strongly agree. He is also right about the ICC. As for where the Ministry of Defence is focused, he makes an important point about the threat in the air. As I said, air defence has been crucial, but of course that fight takes many forms; we need to look at not only ground-to-air systems, but drones, which have proliferated and had an extraordinary impact. We know that we cannot provide the F-16, which is the Ukrainians’ fighter of choice, but we have done what we can by providing the elementary flying training and I absolutely assure him that we will do everything we can.

[Mr Speaker]

I call the Chair of the Select Committee.

[Sir Jeremy Quin (Horsham) (Con)]

I welcome all that the Government have been doing, including on Brimstone and the package of £245 million-worth of ammunition. However, may I ask specifically about 155 mm shells and the BAE Systems production line? Has it now got the orders to ensure that it is working at maximum capacity, on a war footing, to produce all it can to support Ukraine and indeed, in due course, our own stockpiles?

[James Cartlidge]

It is a pleasure to take my first contribution from my right hon. Friend in the Chamber since he became Chairman of the Select Committee. I look forward to further discussion with him later this afternoon on other matters before the Committee. He is right to stress the importance of that contract—155 mm shells are one of the fundamental munitions we need to see both replenished for the UK armed forces and, where possible, provided into Ukraine, along with other key artillery classes. I can confirm that we signed that contract with BAE last July and it should lead to an eightfold increase in 155 mm production, initially in the Washington plant, but thereafter in south Wales. I am keen to see that get going as soon as possible.

[John Spellar (Warley) (Lab)]

The MOD has clearly done a decent job of supporting Ukraine, but I still doubt that the Government as a whole are seized of the urgent critical nature of this crisis. I return to the question I asked the Secretary of State last week: why, when it was clear early in 2022 that this was going to be very much an artillery war dating back to the last century, did it take until mid-2023 to place the order for additional artillery shells? The Minister should have the answer by now.

[James Cartlidge]

I refer to the previous answer I gave, where I was clear that we placed that order last July, as the right hon. Gentleman rightly said; that is for our own armed forces and it is an eightfold increase. But we have provided 300,000 artillery shells into Ukraine. We have procured them, Sir. We have done that not just from this country; we have done it through rapid procurement, through Defence Equipment and Support. All I can say is that I pay tribute to that effort. We all know that we need to go further. The other point is that this is not just about what we have procured; this country has played a leading role in ensuring that other nations join us and provide more munitions. That is as much a key part of the role that we have played.

[Sir Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con)]

Last week, in the NATO Parliamentary Assembly joint session in Brussels, top military leaders described to us their concern that the EU ethical banking laws are going to stop investment in arms companies. Will my hon. Friend confirm that the UK will always ensure that the money needed to invest in making sure that Europe can protect itself against Russian aggression will be there and that the arms can be manufactured?

[James Cartlidge]

My right hon. Friend asks about an excellent point. Both the Secretary of State and I have commented on that. I have held meetings at the Treasury and with defence companies about the ESG—environmental, social and governance—issue, as well as with financial institutions, at Rothschild in the City, because it is extraordinary that anyone should think we should not invest in core munitions when we see now that the cause they support is peace, freedom and democracy. If we do not fund our defence sector, we simply will not be able to defend those fine principles.

[Richard Foord (Tiverton and Honiton) (LD)]

President Zelensky said yesterday that without new military aid from the United States, Ukraine would be unable to defend the Black sea shipping corridor, which has enabled the export of 33 million metric tonnes of Ukrainian grain. That has been enabled in part by the supply by the UK of the Storm Shadow missile and by France’s supply of the SCALP missile. What are the Government discussing with German counterparts about their potential to supply their equivalent, the Taurus missile system?

--- Later in debate ---

[James Cartlidge]

I know that the hon. Gentleman also served and speaks with expertise on these matters. He is right to raise the issue of the strategic importance of the Black sea. We have had huge progress in that area. I believe that since we reopened that corridor, through the success that the Ukrainians have had, with our support, in pushing back the Russian fleet to the east, some 19 million tonnes of grain have got through. That underlines how important that corridor is, but he is right to say that we need to look at what more we can do. Obviously, I am not going to comment on sensitive matters about individual countries’ capabilities, but he can rest assured that we continue to engage with all our allies on these points.

[Jesse Norman (Hereford and South Herefordshire) (Con)]

The Russian invasion of Ukraine is a direct threat to Europe and of course to wider global security. As my hon. Friend will know, Russia has increased, as part of its war mobilisation, its production of shells and ammunition by some factor of 10—or it is planning to do so in the next two or three years. What conversations has he had across Europe and with NATO allies about the longer-term response to this serious challenge?

[James Cartlidge]

My right hon. Friend recently joined the Select Committee and I welcome him to it. He makes an excellent point. First, there is a lot of speculation about the level of production by the Russians. They have needed to increase that because they have lost a huge amount of ordnance and armoured vehicles and, tragically, a large number of personnel. On the long term, I draw his attention to the MPIs, which is where we are joining other NATO members for collective orders of ordnance. The first one we have announced is for missiles and for munitions. That is a powerful signal. We hope it will send a strong demand signal to industry in Europe, but it also sends a signal to Putin and the world that we are determined to stand together and stand up to Putin.

[Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)]

The UK has a great record of supporting Ukraine—for example, training Ukrainian troops is something we can be really proud of—but may I press the Minister on something? How much of the £2.5 billion for 2024 is being spent on Ukraine and how much is being spent on UK operational costs at NATO bases?

[James Cartlidge]

My right hon. Friend the Minister for Armed Forces answered that in detail at oral questions. The key point is that we will not do a line-by-line breakdown of every aspect of the £2.5 billion. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that it is an incredibly important step forward in our support to Ukraine. As he knows, we have been able to confirm that that includes, for example, £245 million on artillery munitions and £200 million on drones. Those are incredibly important commitments, and they go with all the other efforts we have made, but we know that there is more to do, with our allies.

[Sir Iain Duncan Smith (Chingford and Woodford Green) (Con)]

Along with a group of colleagues, I went to the US before Christmas to try to persuade the Republicans there to vote this Bill through urgently—we had a marginal effect on them. The thing I said to them was, “You are facing an axis of authoritarianism; China, North Korea, Russia and Iran are all in league together and they are winning.” When I was in Ukraine, I saw the Ukrainians taking mines out with bayonets and not having the equipment they need. Does my hon. Friend agree that this has told us that none of us is ready for what war is really all about—barbed wire, minefields and artillery shells? Does he not agree that we need to do more?

[James Cartlidge]

I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend for his incredibly important efforts engaging with the US. Obviously, the positions the US takes and the decisions it makes on support are a matter for the US Government and legislature, but my right hon. Friend is right to make the wider strategic point. Surely we are united on the need to have a deterrent against all the adversaries and threats we face around the world. I sincerely hope it will not be the case, but if Russia were to make much more progress and succeed, it would embolden other adversaries. He is right about the horrors of warfare. That is why we need to invest in our own armed forces and conventional deterrent, but above all to keep supporting Ukraine as much as we possibly can.

[Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP)]

The HALO Trust estimates that around 2 million landmines have been laid in Ukraine. Mike Newton from the HALO Trust has said:

“Ukraine cannot be rebuilt until the landmines are removed. Life itself depends on getting rid of them.”

What is the Minister doing to ensure that funds go to the demining of Ukraine? What more preventive work can we do internationally to persuade those countries that are supplying landmines to desist from doing so and to sign the landmines convention?

[James Cartlidge]

The hon. Lady’s excellent point about mines follows on from the point made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith). I am happy to go away and look into that to see what we are able to say about what we are doing. She will appreciate that there is also the issue of naval mines. I believe we will be looking at that, but there is some sensitivity within the maritime capability coalition; I will look into the issue further. I cannot say that there is a button I can press to stop those countries that are providing those munitions, but we know Putin keeps some rather interesting company and that we, as democracies, need to stand together to ensure we support Ukraine in this fight.

[Jack Lopresti (Filton and Bradley Stoke) (Con)]

Will my hon. Friend join me in paying tribute to the fantastic work being done by Defence Equipment and Support in my constituency in ensuring that the overwhelming amount of support and military equipment we have supplied arrives on time at the frontline? What can we do to speed up the process of collaboration in manufacturing in Ukraine between British and Ukrainian companies? That will be huge in the future to ensure that the Ukrainians can produce their own kit on the ground and provide a deterrent after they have beaten the Russians.

--- Later in debate ---

[James Cartlidge]

My hon. Friend is sterling in his championing of the Ukrainian cause and of the excellent work done by DE&S in his constituency. I have visited Abbey Wood twice and there is excellent leadership under Andy Start. DE&S has been responsible for the procurement of a huge amount of munitions and materials at pace in Ukraine, but my hon. Friend is right that we also need to think about the long term and how Ukraine can start to build its own industrial base. That is why we recently had our first defence trade visit there. I am keen to see much more of that and pleased to have his support for that work.

[Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) (Lab)]

May I take the opportunity to reiterate how proud we are of our armed forces personnel, who have worked around the clock to train and support Ukrainian recruits as part of the vital Op Interflex? I urge the Government to confirm where that programme will be after the summer and to make a commitment to it for as long as it takes Ukraine to win.

[James Cartlidge]

The hon. Lady makes the good point that we should pay tribute to all the personnel involved in Operation Interflex. We have provided a huge amount of training. I went to Salisbury plain to meet the Irish Guards who were training Ukrainian civilians of all backgrounds, who would have but weeks of training before returning to a pretty attritional conflict. We all need to reflect on that. It is an incredible operation that has had international support from many other nations. The hon. Lady is right that we are in it for the long term, and we will keep training Ukrainians to defend their homeland.

[Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con)]

I have just returned from Ukraine. There was absolutely nothing but praise for what Britain has done in providing the munitions and equipment required, and in standing up to Putin when so many others blinked at that moment. It is clear that what is happening in Ukraine will move out further. Putin is now more powerful than Stalin and is trying to emulate what Stalin did in eastern Europe. Can we agree that Europe is at war? This affects our economy and our security. We have shown leadership up to now, so can we continue by allowing frozen assets, based in the UK, belonging to Russia, to be slid across the table to Ukraine?

[James Cartlidge]

As ever, my right hon. Friend makes some excellent points. I pay tribute to him and other colleagues who went to Ukraine to show that we stand 100% with Ukraine, and to show our solidarity as parliamentarians with them as a free democracy. He makes an excellent point on frozen Russian assets. The Prime Minister was clear that he wants to look at how we can do that and made the point that, obviously, we have to work internationally, particularly with the G7. Initially we will be looking at the interest earned on those assets, but we should definitely be focusing on this across Government.

[Neil Coyle (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (Lab)]

Will the Government retain UK air defence capabilities supporting NATO allies on the frontline, such as Poland? Can further medical units be dispatched to treat and rehabilitate any Ukrainian or Brit injured by Russian forces?

--- Later in debate ---

[James Cartlidge]

I apologise for missing the first part of the hon. Gentleman’s question; I will write to him on that. On the second part, within the training figures I mentioned, there is significant training for medical personnel. I am happy to include that in the letter. Whether it is training medical personnel or frontline soldiers, the effort we have put in place is huge, it is international and we will do everything we can to keep it going.

[James Sunderland (Bracknell) (Con)]

The number of NATO member countries meeting the 2% GDP commitment is expected to rise from seven last year to 18 later this year. Indications from the US suggest that the US Government are more likely to release an expected $60 billion-worth of commitment to Ukraine once Republican congressmen have had their primaries. Will the Minister confirm that the British defence industry at home is now on a war footing and that we are best able to spend UOR—urgent operational requirement—money and deliver it to Ukraine?

[James Cartlidge]

My hon. Friend as ever asks an excellent question. As he highlighted, this has to be an international effort. There is a tendency to overplay the negative voices, but my experience from international meetings is of an overwhelming consensus, from small nations to large nations, and of a huge desire to keep supporting Ukraine in every way possible. Obviously, the role of the US is fundamental. I can give him the assurance that we will work with the British defence industry to ramp up production. We will be bringing forward a munitions strategy soon and the goal of always-on production will be most in the interests of both the military and our defence sector.

[Dame Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)]

Along with colleagues from across the House, I have just returned from a sobering visit to Ukraine, during which we heard about what some refer to as “the slow yes” from a number of our allies on providing military supplies. That is costing lives on the frontline and limiting military options. Will the Minister tell us what specific recent efforts the Government have made to convey a real sense of urgency to key allies? Will he urge his Cabinet colleagues to redouble their efforts in this respect?

[James Cartlidge]

I assure the hon. Lady that at every international meeting and engagement we attend, whether multilaterally or bilaterally, we do everything possible to encourage our allies to join us in support. As I said in answer to the previous question, although there is a tendency to pick out negative voices, the overwhelming consensus among our allies is to want to support and do more. There will always be a debate about how quickly we can get stuff into line. We have done everything possible to get our support out as quickly as possible, including predating the war itself, so we can be proud of our efforts. I am acutely aware that we need to do more, particularly in concert with our allies.

[James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)]

Partly as a result of the magnificent effort we have made in the past couple of years, our stockpiles have gone and our warehouses are empty. I very much welcome the Government announcement about £245 million for artillery shells described by the Minister, but does he agree there have been a series of legalistic and bureaucratic delays to the issuing of contracts? British manufacturers are frustrated, because they are unable to crack on with producing the kind of goods we need.

[James Cartlidge]

I would not say that the cupboard is empty. We have to have our own levels of holdings for our own military, but we have gifted as much as we can. The obvious example is the AS-90 that we gifted; we rapidly replaced that with the interim artillery solution from Sweden, the Archer gun. I am pleased to say that earlier this morning I announced the launch of the next stage of the new medium helicopter competition, which is an important procurement for the UK military. That speaks to the fact that we are still carrying out core procurement for ourselves.

In addition to 155 mm shells, we have placed orders for lightweight multirole missiles, Starstreak and a whole range of other munitions so we can replenish our stocks. We should not be afraid to say that what we have donated, supported and procured internationally, which is a huge part, has played a massive role that we should be proud of, while recognising the need to do as much as we can, with our allies, going forward.

[Sarah Green (Chesham and Amersham) (LD)]

I was privileged to join colleagues on a cross-party delegation to Ukraine this weekend. The shortage of equipment, ammunition and supplies came up time and again. How are the UK Government monitoring and holding accountable those involved in the supply chain to prevent delay, misuse or diversion of military equipment?

[James Cartlidge]

That is a good question. Obviously, much of this work is happening internationally and in-country with Ukraine. I cannot go into operational details, but, absolutely, it is one thing to procure the equipment and capabilities—whether that is buying internationally, gifting or contributing to international funds, as many countries do, in order that other countries may do that—but we need to make sure that it all gets to the frontline.

[Vicky Ford (Chelmsford) (Con)]

In all the discussions that we have had about military hardware, it is easy to forget the human cost of this war, not least the 20,000 children stolen by the Russians and never returned to their families. As we said on day one, if Putin wins in Ukraine, he will not stop there; other countries will be next. That is why it is vital that the UK and allies continue to provide Ukraine with the weapons that it needs. But Russia must also pay. May I ask the Government to double down on the work that they are doing to use the proceeds of frozen Russian assets to pay for this war and the reconstruction of Ukraine, so that Russia knows that it cannot get away with this?

[James Cartlidge]

My right hon. Friend, who speaks with great passion, is right to talk about the need to hold Russia to account. We have said that repeatedly. We have said that in reference both to the war itself and to specific actions, such as those involving Alexei Navalny and so on. We are under no illusion about the nature of that regime and what would happen if it were to succeed. We have had that view right from the beginning, and it is brilliant that so many countries have joined us in that effort. I strongly believe that without our efforts Ukraine would not still be in the fight. How do we keep the Ukrainians there? We must keep providing the munitions that we have described, keep training the personnel in Interflex, and keep ensuring that our allies join us in all of those efforts.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (Ind)]

The US State Department has reportedly calculated that North Korea has delivered 10,000 containers of munitions to Russia for deployment in Ukraine. What can be done to disrupt the supply chain?

[James Cartlidge]

That is not a straightforward question to answer. As I said right at the beginning about the things that ultimately come from military intelligence, these are sensitive matters, but the hon. Gentleman can rest assured that these are priorities that we look at very closely with our international partners.

[Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con)]

I, too, joined my hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Wight (Bob Seely) and other colleagues in Ukraine at the weekend. The point about the “slow yes” to the provision of kit and funds is well made by the hon. Member for Llanelli (Dame Nia Griffith). As well as conventional warfare, the Russians are increasingly using cyber warfare, recently taking out virtually the whole mobile network, with implications for the frontline as well. Central to countering that is advanced satellite technology provided by British companies, which also has applications for mine detection. Having recently had a spread of 30 metres, they can now get it down to 5 cm with heat detection devices. These are crucial, so can we make sure that we do not just limit our support to conventional warfare ammunition, but look at high-tech and cyber warfare, which will be increasingly necessary?

[James Cartlidge]

My hon. Friend makes an extremely important point. We knew already that the battle space is contested and that forces need to be closely integrated, but what Ukraine has shown above all else is the extraordinary extent to which electronic warfare plays a role. The mass jamming across the domain has to be factored into any kit that is used, and it will have to be factored into procurement going forward. We must be aware of these developments. We have our own brilliant resources, such as the Defence Science and Technology Laboratory, and there are things that we have done that are sensitive and that have provided support as far as possible, but he is right to talk in particular about the importance of the space domain. The UK is lucky to have a strong, sovereign space industry, supporting defence in the civil sector. Going forward, we need to be aware of how warfare is changing and be able to respond rapidly with our procurement.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the Minister for his helpful and encouraging answers. Having read in the press recently about the price of military supplies and the protracted situation in Ukraine, it is clear that help with military supplies is essential. As I understand it, missiles can cost as much as £1 million each. Is there any more that can be done with our NATO allies, financially, physically and militarily, to help ensure that Ukraine continues to have the means to stave off the ceaseless attack by Russia?

[James Cartlidge]

As ever, we save the best till last. [Interruption.] Oh, the hon. Gentleman is second to last, my apologies. Nevertheless, I shall always say that when he is called to speak.

The hon. Gentleman makes a very good point about the cost. When we talk about the multilateral procurement initiative, we could argue that it is like a bulk buy between nations. Obviously, we want to see economies of scale for that in exchange for the massive demand signal that we will be providing for European industry. However, the key point is not just to send a demand signal, but, ultimately, to send a deterrent signal. If we in Europe rally round in European NATO along with our US allies and step up the pace on industrial reinvigoration in the defence space, that will in itself be part of the deterrent message that we send to Putin.

[Tom Randall (Gedling) (Con)]

Along with colleagues from across the House, I was in Ukraine at the weekend, and I was struck by the gratitude of the Ukrainians to the UK. I was also struck by the words of General Wesley Clark, speaking at the Yalta European strategy conference, when he made a prediction that we are in the second year of a six-year war. If that prediction is accurate, will the Minister outline what efforts are under way to locate compatible ammunition supplies from countries with older stocks, and does he agree that it is important to get supplies out of stockpiles and on to the frontline in Ukraine, so that we can tip this war in Ukraine’s favour?

[James Cartlidge]

I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for joining other colleagues in going out to Ukraine, showing the solidarity that we have for it and the strong cross-parliamentary consensus. Often when we talk about procurement for Ukraine, there can be some misunderstanding. Just to be clear, an awful lot of the munitions that have been provided were sourced internationally, but we do not necessarily go into the minute detail of that. He is absolutely right; initially that meant providing what was largely ex-Soviet stock, but in the long term we want to enable the Ukrainians to produce munitions to NATO standard. We want to work closely with them on that, and that is how we will get their industry into order so that they can sustain their own ability to fight over the long term.

Oral Answers to Questions

James Cartlidge Excerpts

Monday 19th February 2024 Commons Chamber

[Dame Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con)]

8. What plans he has for the future of the rotary wing enterprise.

[The Minister for Defence Procurement (James Cartlidge)]

The rotary wing enterprise programme seeks to improve aircraft availability across support solutions for Apache, Chinook, Merlin and Wildcat from within existing budgets. It will do so by driving synergies between platforms, modernising support solutions and pursuing delivery-focused commercial mechanisms.

[Dame Caroline Dinenage]

Mr Speaker, as you know, Fleetlands in Gosport has been the home of military helicopter maintenance for more than 65 years. This highly skilled engineering work is really key to levelling up the area, providing much-needed jobs and opportunities. Does the Minister agree that the MOD’s rotary wing enterprise and new medium helicopter programme would benefit greatly from these generations of expertise and skills right there in Gosport?

[James Cartlidge]

I know from my recent visit that my right hon. Friend is a champion not only for defence in her constituency, but for defence jobs in particular. She is right about StandardAero Fleetlands, which is a valued actor in the maintenance of our rotary wing platforms. The rotary wing enterprise is due to enter its detailed design this year. As part of that, it will consider wider social value, including the extent to which economic prosperity is supported. But as this is a specific potential procurement, I cannot comment any further. I also cannot comment on the role of particular companies in the new medium helicopter programme, but we hope to say more on that very soon.

[Mr Speaker]

I call the shadow Minister.

[Maria Eagle (Garston and Halewood) (Lab)]

The Government have delayed producing the information required for the invitation to negotiate for the new medium-lift helicopter four times since September 2022. Can the Minister explain what has caused this 18-month delay? Given the reports last week about his Department freezing capital spending until at least the new financial year, when will the Government get their act together to get this competition under way? Can he promise that the delay will not push back the delivery date for this vital capability for our forces?

[James Cartlidge]

I am pleased to say two things to the hon. Lady. First, we will have the announcement on the next stage of the new medium helicopter very soon. I am also pleased to confirm that we have been clear on our spending position. To echo my right hon. Friend the Minister for Defence People and Families, if the hon. Lady wants to talk about stuff that is rumoured in the press—we do not have those sorts of capital spending controls—can she confirm whether the shadow Chancellor will honour our defence spending commitments?

[Giles Watling (Clacton) (Con)]

9. What recent progress his Department has made on the AUKUS partnership.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

10. What assessment he has made of the adequacy of the Royal Navy’s capabilities to engage land-based targets.

[The Minister for Defence Procurement (James Cartlidge)]

The Royal Navy has a range of capabilities to support the engagement of land-based targets. Specific threat planning is considered for every deployment or contingency, and measures are taken to reduce or mitigate those expected threats as dictated by operational priority.

[Sir Desmond Swayne]

What urgency is attached to the upgrading of HMS Diamond’s defence systems?

[James Cartlidge]

My right hon. Friend asks an excellent question. I know that there has been a lot of interest, following the deployment in the Red sea, in what the lessons are. I can confirm that the Sea Viper capability has been at the forefront of this, being the Navy’s weapon of choice in the first shooting down of an aerial threat in more than 30 years. It is a cutting-edge weapons system, and I can confirm that Sea Viper will be upgraded, to further enhance this capability against the more complex and evolving threats that we face, including the ability to intercept missiles in their terminal phase.

[Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con)]

11. What assessment he has made of trends in levels of employment in the defence manufacturing sector in the next 12 months.

[The Minister for Defence Procurement (James Cartlidge)]

In 2022-23, the Ministry of Defence spent £25 billion with UK industry. The most recent estimate shows that that supported 209,000 jobs across the country, of which 47,000 were in manufacturing.

[Mr Robertson]

My Tewkesbury constituency contains a lot of aerospace manufacturing, particularly for the defence sectors, but those companies have long complained to me that they cannot attract enough young people, particularly to take engineering jobs. The all-party parliamentary group on aerospace, which I co-chair, has the objective of enticing young people to go into engineering or at least consider it as a career. Will the Government do anything more to persuade young people to consider taking up the engineering opportunities that are there?

[James Cartlidge]

My hon. Friend asks an excellent question. It helps that we have lots of school groups and young people in the Gallery today, it being half term. I can confirm that last year’s defence Command Paper identified skills as a priority, including the shortage of engineering, digital, cyber, STEM, nuclear, and space-based skills. The defence head of profession for engineering, who also supports the Government science and engineering head of profession, has a defence youth engagement strategy that drives STEM outreach activities and the encouragement of engineering uptake in individuals aged four to 14.

[Richard Foord (Tiverton and Honiton) (LD)]

13. What recent discussions he has had with international partners on future military support for Ukraine.

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[Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD)]

14. What steps he is taking to reduce armed forces emissions.

[The Minister for Defence Procurement (James Cartlidge)]

The MOD has already started its decarbonisation journey in support of the UK’s net zero commitment. At the Royal International Air Tattoo last year, I was pleased to sign the defence aviation net zero charter on behalf of the MOD. Working closely with our industrial partners, we are moving to cleaner and more efficient technology. The Army is building solar farms, and has invested £14 million in battlefield electrification. The Royal Navy’s cutting-edge catalytic systems are reducing emissions of greenhouse gases in its patrol vessels by up to 97%. Finally, the RAF is pioneering the use of sustainable aviation fuel.

[Wera Hobhouse]

It was a pleasure to attend the Global Charge dinner last October, and to see so many members of the armed forces, from all ranks, committed to tackling the climate crisis. However, the Defence Committee has described the MOD’s current reduction targets as “insufficiently demanding” under the greening government commitments—they are the lowest across all Departments. Will the Minister ensure that the next round of CC commitments will contain more demanding targets, not least to reflect the real ambitions and for members of the armed forces on the ground to see the devastation of climate change?

[James Cartlidge]

I know the hon. Lady is very passionate about this issue. I have just listed the ways in which the individual services are taking steps to reduce their emissions, but we always have to balance that against our overwhelming priority as a Department, which is to support the ability of our armed forces to defend these islands.

[Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

15. What steps his Department is taking to support innovative defence technologies.

[The Minister for Defence Procurement (James Cartlidge)]

Defence is investing over £6.6 billion in advanced research and development. We are working with UK industry and academia to identify and invest in innovative technologies, ensuring that we have the capabilities we need to defeat our adversaries.

[Sir Edward Leigh]

The RAF has traditionally had a very poor record when it closes bases in Lincolnshire—just walking away, leaving them to go to rack and ruin—but at RAF Scampton we had wonderful schemes for innovative defence technologies, such as a spaceport. Will the Minister now work with the Home Office and me to try to release the bulk of that base so that we can get all these exciting technologies going? The MOD cannot just wash its hands of the base, now that it has been passed to the Home Office. We are supposed to have joined-up government.

[James Cartlidge]

My right hon. Friend makes an important point. As he knows, RAF Scampton is no longer part of the defence estate, which means we do not have formal responsibility for it. What I would stress to him is that we are investing in innovation in Lincolnshire, including the significant investment into RAF Waddington associated with our Protector capability.

[Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP)]

16. What recent estimate he has made of the lifetime cost of Trident renewal.

[The Minister for Defence Procurement (James Cartlidge)]

The Dreadnought submarine programme remains within overall budget and on track for the first of class, HMS Dreadnought, to enter service in the early 2030s. Inflation has remained higher than expected for an extended period and has had an adverse impact on the cost forecasts for the programme compared with the forecasts from a year earlier. As the programme is in its preliminary phases, it is too early to provide cost estimates for the replacement warhead programme.

[Patrick Grady]

I think that means the Minister does not know what the total lifetime cost of Trident replacement is going to be. Budgets in Government Departments and households alike are under immense pressure because of rampant inflation. Why do everybody else’s budgets have to be under pressure but there seems to be a blank-cheque approach to the renewal of Trident?

[James Cartlidge]

That is an extraordinary thing for the hon. Gentleman to say. He knows that we will shortly be publishing, before the end of the financial year, our supplementary estimate for the defence nuclear enterprise for the financial year. But as he knows, there is a cost in not having a deterrent. That is his policy: to do away with the deterrent on a unilateral basis, despite all the terrible threats we can see in the world and the nuclear sabre-rattling from Russia. His policy would be abject folly. We will invest in providing that ultimate guarantee to the people of the United Kingdom.

[James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)]

I know that the Minister and most of the House, leaving aside those on the Scottish National Benches, will agree that the continuous at-sea deterrent is absolutely central to the defence of the realm—there is no question about that at all. Does he agree that we must find a way of replacing Trident within budget, and that the worst possible thing that could happen to Trident would be an SNP Government in Scotland?

[James Cartlidge]

I agree 100% with my hon. Friend.

[Greg Smith (Buckingham) (Con)]

T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

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[Sarah Atherton (Wrexham) (Con)]

T7. When defence contracts are awarded, a 10% to 20% weighting is given to social value, which is the benefit that the contract would have for the local and wider community. Does that community benefit apply entirely for the UK, or are overseas companies and their communities considered equally?

[The Minister for Defence Procurement (James Cartlidge)]

That is a very good question. The distinction is between the Cabinet Office social value rules, which are applied across Government and are irrespective, and the rules that the Ministry of Defence applies to our procurement. There was discussion of the new medium helicopter earlier, for example. When that comes out, as I hope it will soon, we will be clear that we are looking to incentivise a strong commitment to the UK industrial base.

[Holly Lynch (Halifax) (Lab)]

T2. The MOD recently published the findings of the inquiry into the fatal accident involving a Scimitar fighting vehicle on Salisbury plain, in which a young soldier tragically lost his life. One of my constituents was a witness to the accident, which has inevitably had a profound impact on him. The Government have said that they do not plan to make a formal response to the inquiry report, which is a harrowing read, but they have accepted all 52 recommendations. Does the Minister not think that the report requires a full and formal response from the Government, with a detailed action plan for adopting the 52 recommendations, given the seriousness of the incident and the wider implications—

--- Later in debate ---

[Danny Kruger (Devizes) (Con)]

Late last year, diesel got into the water supply at the Trenchard Lines camp near Upavon in my constituency. I commend the resilience of the families who live there, and also of the MOD, which acted very quickly to ensure that there was a temporary supply of water. Those families are still living on that temporary supply, so can the Minister assure me that attention is being given to sorting out this problem and ensuring a permanent supply of clean water?

[James Cartlidge]

I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for raising this matter—he is a champion of the defence community in his constituency, and I thank him for his early engagement on it. I understand that the local authority regulator, following the completion of rigorous testing, has confirmed that the water quality at Trenchard Lines is acceptable, and it is now safe for personnel working and living there to use the mains supply. I will double-check that and write to him, but I am grateful for his comments on the performance of the Defence Infrastructure Organisation in that regard.

[Jeff Smith (Manchester, Withington) (Lab)]

T5. Today we have seen news of another serious attack by the Houthis on a commercial vessel in the gulf of Aden. Do Ministers think that more Royal Navy ships will need to be deployed to the region, given the ongoing threat to merchant shipping?

Trident

James Cartlidge Excerpts

Friday 26th January 2024 Commons Chamber

[The Minister for Defence Procurement (James Cartlidge)]

I am grateful to the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Neale Hanvey) for initiating this debate. We have had a number of exchanges on this matter including, for example, in Defence oral questions.

The key point is that every day since April 1969, there has been at least one nuclear-armed Royal Navy submarine at sea, helping to keep the United Kingdom safe—the whole of the United Kingdom. In January 1980, when the House debated the successor programme to Polaris, which led to Trident—the title of this debate—the Secretary of State for Defence, Lord Pym, boiled down the Government’s position to one essential point. While acknowledging the “horrendous” nature of nuclear weapons and regretting that we could not “disinvent” them, he concluded that Britain needed to be a nuclear power because of what it would contribute to NATO’s strategy of deterrence and, through that, to our own national security.

Essentially, that has been the position of every UK Government since then. The renewal of the nuclear deterrent was approved by an overwhelming majority of 355 votes in this House in 2016, and it remains this Government’s position today. In 1980 the debate was framed by the cold war, but in 2024 the threats facing our country have multiplied and become far more complex. The number of nuclear states has grown, while Putin’s aggression and intransigence have set back the prospect of nuclear disarmament more broadly. Russia still holds around 6,000 warheads, and we face a much more assertive, nuclear-armed China. North Korea remains hellbent on honing its nuclear capabilities at the expense of the wellbeing of its own people, while Iran has repeatedly violated its international nuclear obligations and has enriched uranium far beyond what it needs for civilian purposes.

Significantly, our competitors are investing in novel nuclear technologies, including new warfighting nuclear systems, to integrate into their military strategies and doctrines. If we measure the need for an effective nuclear deterrent by the number of nuclear-armed states overtly working against the UK’s national interest, it is clear that the need to deter has never been greater. Let us not forget that a credible nuclear capability is about more than merely countering nuclear threats; it is about deterring all of the most extreme threats to our nation. That is why the Government are investing in upgrading our nuclear infrastructure to support the next generation Dreadnought-class submarines and replacement warheads. These will be some of the most advanced nuclear systems ever built, which sends a clear message to any would-be adversary.

Four Dreadnought submarines will replace the Vanguard-class submarines that have maintained our nuclear deterrent since 1992. They will give us an independent, continuous at-sea nuclear deterrent well into the second half of the century, and progress is on track to deliver the first of the Dreadnought submarines into service in the early 2030s. At £31 billion, it is correct to say that the estimated cost of the programme is significant, but we cannot develop this type of world-leading capability on the cheap, and we must also weigh that against the terrible cost of war, which is what the nuclear deterrent deters from happening.

Not only will the programme keep us safe; it is fuelling economic growth around the country. The submarines are being built by BAE Systems in Barrow-in-Furness. They will be maintained by Babcock in Devonport and on the Clyde. Their nuclear reactors are designed and built by Rolls-Royce in Derby. Our nuclear warheads are designed, manufactured and maintained by the Atomic Weapons Establishment in Berkshire. Hundreds of companies form the network of supply chains, and the stationing of our submarines at His Majesty’s Naval Base Clyde will ensure that it remains one of the largest employment sites in Scotland, bringing significant benefits to the local economy. Directly and indirectly, the nuclear deterrent is responsible for thousands of jobs in Scotland.

In preparation for the delivery of Dreadnought, we are carrying out a £1.4 billion upgrade of our nuclear facilities at HMNB Clyde. We are committed to replacing our current nuclear warheads and are working with the US to refresh the Trident II D5 missile. [Interruption.] If the hon. Gentleman wishes to intervene, he is more than welcome to do so.

[Neale Hanvey]

I thank the Minister for unexpectedly allowing an intervention. He says that he is working with the US, but the reality is that the US controls the nuclear deterrent that the UK provides.

[James Cartlidge]

That is wholly erroneous. Yes, we have a very, very close working relationship with the United States. We recently celebrated the 60th anniversary of the Polaris agreement. With the United States we secured the freedom of Europe in the second world war, and with the United States we are continuing to secure the freedom of our United Kingdom by deterring the most significant threat that we could face.

I emphasise that while we continue to invest in our nuclear deterrent, the Government remain fully committed to the long-term goal of a world without nuclear weapons. As a country, we have a strong record on disarmament, having unilaterally reduced our nuclear forces significantly from their cold war peak. We now have the smallest nuclear warhead stockpile of the five nuclear weapons states recognised under the non-proliferation treaty, and we are the only state to have reduced its deterrent capability to a single nuclear weapons system. However, other states have not followed our example, and as we survey the dangers facing our world today, our assessment is that further unilateral disarmament would only undermine our security and that of our allies. Nevertheless, we will continue to see opportunities to advance multilateral disarmament under the framework of the non-proliferation treaty.

Our nuclear deterrent deters aggression and coercion and helps to preserve peace.

[Neale Hanvey]

I thank the Minister for giving way a final time. I will not take too much time, but I did express a number of specific concerns that relate to the people of Scotland and their concerns about hosting these weapons on their shores. The Minister has made the business case, albeit perhaps not the moral case, for hosting WMDs, but he has not responded to any of my concerns about hosting these weapons in Scotland. Will he commit to respond in writing and in detail to the points I have put to him today?

[James Cartlidge]

I did respond in detail to the written questions the hon. Gentleman tabled last May about those incidents, and the Secretary of State wrote to him about the allegations that were printed. We rejected them.

The hon. Gentleman asks about the moral case, and I have made the moral case: it is about peace, it is about deterrence. If he does not understand that, let me put on the record the fact that it is the policy of his party to withdraw from NATO, not just to disarm. Let us ask ourselves what greater folly there could be in the current international situation than for the United Kingdom to withdraw from NATO. How would the Kremlin react? What would the people of Ukraine think—the people we have done so much to help remain free?

Peace is not cheap. That is why we support our deterrent, whose existence has kept us and our allies safe for decades, and we remain fully committed to investing in it. Of course, we absolutely hope never to have to use our arsenal, but in our more dangerous world, I strongly agree with Lord Pym when he told this House, 44 years ago almost to the day, that irrespective of the nature of the threat we face, it is better to have “effective options” than accept defeat. Or, as I would put it sincerely, the best way to avoid a war is to deter it from happening in the first place.

Question put and agreed to.

Nuclear Defence Infrastructure: Parliamentary Scrutiny

James Cartlidge Excerpts

Wednesday 24th January 2024 Commons Chamber

[The Minister for Defence Procurement (James Cartlidge)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for West Dunbartonshire (Martin Docherty-Hughes) on securing this important debate. It is true that we differ fundamentally on the issue of the deterrent. Indeed, there is such passion and commitment to it among Conservative Members that we have a fantastic turnout this evening. The key theme of his speech was parliamentary scrutiny. He said that Parliament is sovereign everywhere, except in the nuclear deterrent. So let me remind him that when my right hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May) became Prime Minister in 2016, one of the first key votes in this House was on the renewal of Trident, and the majority was 355 in favour.

To be clear, the UK’s independent nuclear deterrent is a matter of the highest priority for the Government, as is borne out by the support on our Back Benches today. I welcome the opportunity to set out our approach and policies in this area. Our continuous at-sea nuclear deterrent is the cornerstone of our national defence, and it is central to the Government’s national security strategy. We place the utmost importance on the upkeep of all our nuclear defence infrastructure and its upgrades. His Majesty’s naval base in Clyde has an establishment management plan with a 40-year horizon that covers both the Faslane and Coulport sites. The Government seek to be as transparent as possible about our nuclear defence infrastructure, within obvious national security constraints.

[Deidre Brock]

rose—

[James Cartlidge]

I will take one intervention from the hon. Lady.

[Deidre Brock]

The Minister talks about transparency, but in 2017 the publication of the annual reports of the Defence Nuclear Safety Regulator, the Ministry of Defence’s internal watchdog, were stopped under his Government. Why was that?

[James Cartlidge]

I have enjoyed the fact that the hon. Lady has tabled a number of written questions on these matters. I have always answered them as transparently as possible, setting out the full facts, and will continue to do so. Indeed, the very point of being here is that we are transparent in Parliament about our deterrent. We engage fully with Parliament, including the Defence and Scottish Affairs Committees, and we will continue to do so. We publish transparency data for all major defence programmes annually, including nuclear infrastructure, and, in line with industry good practice, our nuclear sites have well-established and transparent systems for raising what are known in the industry as nuclear site event reports, about which the hon. Lady has asked a number of written questions. This open documentation of human error, procedural or documentation failings, and equipment issues provides the strongest illustration of our commitment to transparency. More importantly, it fosters a culture of continual improvement and enhances the rigour of our collective approach to safety.

The safety of our nuclear defence infrastructure is paramount. Our nuclear establishments fully adhere to current—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

Order. I am sorry to interrupt the Minister. I have said this before but everybody seems to think it is funny to ignore it. It is fine to whisper if you need to communicate with one another, but it is simply rude to talk at the top of your voice, so that I can hear what people are saying on the Back Benches but I cannot hear the Minister. It is simply discourteous.

[James Cartlidge]

I think they are very enthused, Madam Deputy Speaker.

Our nuclear establishments fully adhere to current regulatory and operational requirements. They are subject to a painstaking programme of maintenance by highly trained experts. To ensure their reliability and safety far into the future, we are carrying out a £1.4 billion upgrade of our nuclear facilities at HMNB Clyde, which will ensure they are ready to receive the next generation Dreadnought class of submarines. As colleagues would expect, all these improvements are being made in line with current and foreseeable future regulatory requirements.

To conclude, we cannot look after our nuclear infrastructure without highly trained people. To support our future submarine programmes, we are investing around £200 million in world-class training for our current and future submariners. The Government have robust maintenance programmes in place to deal with some of the challenges to non-nuclear infrastructure at HMNB Clyde. We will continue to do everything we can to ensure that our nuclear deterrent infrastructure both keeps us safe and continues to adhere to the most stringent safety and regulatory standards.

Question put and agreed to.

Defence

James Cartlidge Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd January 2024 Ministerial Corrections

The following is an extract from the Westminster Hall debate on Service Accommodation on 19 December 2023.

[James Cartlidge]

As of 13 November, some 84% of rooms met the standard. That means that 13,347 did not, which falls well short of where we need to be. However, the intent is that, by April 2024, a further 30% of those will be upgraded. In the longer term, the Department will invest around £5.3 billion in SLA over the next 10 years to get homes up to standard. That will see us deliver approximately 40,000 new or refurbished bed spaces.

[Official Report, 19 December 2023, Vol. 742, c. 499WH.]

Letter of correction from the Minister for Defence Procurement, the hon. Member for South Suffolk (James Cartlidge):

An error has been identified in my response to the debate. The correct information should have been:

[James Cartlidge]

As of 13 November, some 84% of rooms met the standard. That means that 13,347 did not, which falls well short of where we need to be. However, the intent is that, by April 2024, a further 30% of those will be upgraded. In the longer term, the Department will invest around £2 billion in SLA over the next 10 years to get homes up to standard. That will see us deliver approximately 40,000 new or refurbished bed spaces.

Oral Answers to Questions

James Cartlidge Excerpts

Monday 8th January 2024 Commons Chamber

[Virginia Crosbie (Ynys Môn) (Con)]

1. What steps his Department is taking to support defence jobs.

[The Minister for Defence Procurement (James Cartlidge)]

Mr Speaker, I hope that you and all your staff had an enjoyable Christmas and new year break. I confirm that the most recent estimate shows that Ministry of Defence investment supports 209,000 jobs in industries across the UK. We continue to support UK businesses through direct procurement of equipment and services, supply chains and exports, and—investing in the future—through research and development.

[Virginia Crosbie]

Blwyddyn newydd dda—happy new year, Mr Speaker. Will the Minister outline investment at RAF Valley to date as part of the recapitalisation of the MOD’s military flying training system and its local impact? Will he accept my invitation to visit RAF Valley, which is the largest skilled employer on Anglesey, where he will receive a warm Welsh croeso?

[James Cartlidge]

My hon. Friend was a constant champion of nuclear during my previous job, and I am glad she is carrying on that form in defence. I would be delighted to accept the invitation. In addition to RAF Valley being important for military flying training, it is important economically as the second-largest employer on the island. In the past 18 months, we have announced investments of £175 million in a new training facility for the Texan, and £600 million for Hawk T1 and T2 engineering maintenance, underscoring our ongoing commitment to investment in jobs and skills at RAF Valley for many years to come.

[Tonia Antoniazzi (Gower) (Lab)]

In May, the MOD admitted that just 4% of the steel used to construct Type 31 frigates was sourced from UK steelyards. What steps is the Minister taking to ensure that British warships are built in British shipyards by British workers using British steel?

[James Cartlidge]

Is a very good and important question. As the hon. Lady knows, sourcing steel is primarily a decision for our prime contractors who lead on procuring those platforms. To take the example of Type 26, I believe that almost 50% of that is UK-sourced, so it varies according to needs and requirements, but we encourage our prime contractors to use UK steel where possible and practical.

[Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con)]

One decision that my hon. Friend could make to support defence jobs is to retain HMS Albion and HMS Bulwark. Will he reassure the House, the Royal Marines, the Royal Navy and the armed forces that these two vital ships will be kept in operation and not mothballed?

[James Cartlidge]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who speaks with great authority from all his time on the Defence Committee. No final decision has been made on those platforms. I know that there has been much coverage in the press—and, inevitably, chatter—and I know how important they are to our service personnel. I reassure him that we are looking at this in the round. We are absolutely committed to supporting defence jobs across the piece. Obviously, we have recruitment challenges, but we must also support British industry, and that is why the Secretary of State is leading on that in his role as shipbuilding tsar.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

Mr Speaker, I wish you and all right hon. and hon. Members a happy new year.

Northern Ireland is an integral part of the defence company supply chain, and I am keen to ensure that we in Northern Ireland have all the opportunity that there is on the mainland. What discussions has the Minister had with defence companies in Northern Ireland such as Thales on securing further employment in the defence sector?

[James Cartlidge]

I can confirm that I held my first small and medium-sized enterprise roundtable in Larne in Northern Ireland, where I met a number of Northern Ireland SMEs, which are integral to our industry. Just before Christmas, I met Thales, which is responsible for the NLAW and a number of other important munitions that have been used in Ukraine. That underlines the importance of supporting our British armaments industry.

[Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con)]

2. What steps his Department is taking to help protect shipping routes through the Red sea.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mrs Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con)]

9. What recent progress his Department has made on the AUKUS partnership.

[The Minister for Defence Procurement (James Cartlidge)]

I am pleased to confirm that we have made significant progress in developing the AUKUS partnership. The AUKUS defence ministerial meeting last month announced a range of tri-national activities taking forward advanced capabilities, including our deep space advanced radar capability, DARC. Australian personnel are training in the UK and the US, and £4 billion-worth of contracts have been awarded to UK companies building SSN-AUKUS. Finally, Congress passed legislation to enable AUKUS to facilitate frictionless trade between partners, including the reform of the international traffic in arms regulations.

[Mrs Latham]

The Secretary of State, together with the Australian Prime Minister, was recently welcomed at Rolls-Royce Raynesway in my constituency as part of the AUKUS preparations. I am sure the Minister would also be welcomed, if he can find time in his schedule for a visit. Two years ago, Rolls-Royce opened its doors to the UK’s first nuclear skills academy, which takes on 200 apprentices annually and trains them to become nuclear engineers. Has the Minister considered how the Government can work with Rolls-Royce to further the UK’s nuclear skills capacity?

[James Cartlidge]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for her excellent question and I would be delighted to visit Raynesway. Last August, I was pleased to announce the launch of the nuclear skills taskforce, jointly with the Under-Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero, my hon. Friend the Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine (Andrew Bowie). The taskforce will drive activity through a coherent action plan, bringing together Government, academia and employers, crucially from across both civil and defence nuclear sectors, including from Rolls-Royce. It will build on existing work to address the skills challenge across the nuclear sector and will bolster our ability to deliver on our commitments made under the AUKUS defence partnership.

[John Spellar (Warley) (Lab)]

AUKUS has strong support from across the House, but although the time scales seem very long, in reality there is growing concern in the defence community that they may already be slipping, often because of bureaucratic inertia. What is being done to keep this vital project on track? How often is the Minister meeting his officials to monitor and chase progress?

[James Cartlidge]

I am not aware of any slippage. We meet frequently and discuss this incredibly important matter. I am pleased to hear his confidence that AUKUS has cross-party support. It is generating huge numbers of jobs for the future: an additional 1,700 jobs will be created in Raynesway to build the reactors for the UK and Australia. It is an incredibly exciting project and we are 100% committed to it.

[Mr Speaker]

I call the shadow Minister.

[Maria Eagle (Garston and Halewood) (Lab)]

Let me make clear that AUKUS pillar 1 and pillar 2 have Labour’s full backing. However, we are concerned about whether the Government’s current focus on implementing AUKUS is sufficient and we want more UK leadership for this national endeavour. The latest list of ministerial responsibilities, from October 2023, does not even mention AUKUS or Australia, although it does mention the USA. Ministers have agreed that pillar 1 should have only a part-time official responsible for its implementation. If AUKUS is not even in his job description and his officials are working on it part time, how can we take the Minister seriously when he says it is important?

[James Cartlidge]

The way we take it seriously is not by judging the number of officials or what we are doing in that regard, but by looking at what we are actually delivering in the real world in terms of military capability and for British industry. As I just said, the US has reformed ITAR and there are thousands of jobs across the UK, boosting our Indo-Pacific capabilities. This is an extremely important project. We are making huge progress and the Government are very proud of the partnership.

[Mary Kelly Foy (City of Durham) (Lab)]

10. What steps his Department is taking to support armed forces personnel with the cost of living.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mrs Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con)]

T5. We face a complex range of security threats and challenges in our rapidly changing world. Cyber-attacks are increasingly common and nations across the world are preparing to become combat ready for space warfare. What assessment has the Minister’s Department made of supporting defence jobs to assist the UK’s efforts against cyber and space warfare?

[The Minister for Defence Procurement (James Cartlidge)]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who asks a second excellent question, given the growing importance of the cyber and space domains. On cyber, I can confirm that the 2022 national cyber strategy highlights the Government’s commitment to growing the UK cyber-ecosystem and that new cyber-career structures are being developed across Defence, with new ways of training, upskilling and rewarding our people. On space, we have created a space academy for Government, industry and academia and are supporting cross-Government work to develop a space workforce action plan for 2024.

[Martin Docherty-Hughes (West Dunbartonshire) (SNP)]

Does the Minister recognise any semblance of truth in this statement by Dominic Cummings,

“the scandal of nuclear weapons infrastructure which is a dangerous disaster and a budget nightmare of hard-to-believe and highly classified proportions”,

regarding the Coulport naval facility and the nuclear deterrent black hole?

[James Cartlidge]

As with our previous exchange, while I respect the hon. Gentleman’s position, we do not comment on speculation. What I can say is that nuclear infrastructure is incredibly important to the future of our deterrent. His Majesty’s naval base Clyde has developed an established management plan with a 40-year horizon that provides a strategic vision for the future that is clear and simple and that endures, and we have a £1.4 billion programme for Faslane and Coulport nuclear facilities and nuclear infrastructure.

[Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con)]

T8. Last month’s treaty with Japan and Italy brought the global air combat programme’s Team Tempest a step closer to reality. It followed news that BAE Systems is to hire 2,700 graduates and apprentices this year, including more than 500 Lancashire-based roles across the air division. What estimate does my hon. Friend make of the defence sector’s impact on the economy, job prospects and opportunities for young people in places like Fylde—and, indeed, Chorley?

[Mr Speaker]

That is a very good question.

[James Cartlidge]

It is brilliant news, and we are delighted to have signed the treaty with Japan and Italy last month. My hon. Friend asks about the impact; it is fair to say that it will have a particular impact on his constituency, which houses the Warton site, where we have our factory of the future for the global combat air programme. I can confirm that a 2021 report by PwC estimated that the programme would contribute £26 billion to the UK economy between 2021 and 2050 and support on average 21,000 jobs per year, many of which will be in Lancashire, Mr Speaker, and particularly in my hon. Friend’s constituency.

[Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)]

T3. I do not know whether the Minister has seen the article by the Daily Mail defence editor, Mark Nicol, about the lack of transparency on pinch points in the armed forces personnel workforce. Figures on that used to be produced regularly. When was the decision taken to no longer produce them, and will the Minister commit today to producing them in the interest of transparency?

--- Later in debate ---

[Helen Morgan (North Shropshire) (LD)]

T4. The service family accommodation at Clive barracks in my constituency is concerning. A family who have severe health problems are living in a mouldy house. The Defence Infrastructure Organisation does not want to spend the money on fixing those problems; it wants to move them into a different house for the second time in two years. What are the Minister’s commitments on upgrading and maintaining the housing stock, particularly on sites that are earmarked for closure, such as Clive barracks?

[James Cartlidge]

The hon. Lady is welcome to write to me about that specific case. I pay tribute to her because she consistently raises such accommodation issues—we had an exchange about them in Westminster Hall. She mentions DIO money and, as I said in that exchange, the key is investment. We have doubled the budget for maintenance and upgrades this year as part of the extra £400 million that we are putting in. That is why we can address the damp and mould in so many properties. I am happy to look at the specifics of the case she mentions.

[Sarah Atherton (Wrexham) (Con)]

As the media report the retirement of HMS Bulwark and HMS Albion, there are obvious questions about Britain’s future amphibious capability, which was used so admirably during the Falklands war, along with the unrivalled skills of our specialist troops. Does the Minister agree that our Royal Marine commandos are an asset that we cannot afford to lose?

[Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP)]

T6. The long-running industrial dispute at Defence Equipment and Support in Beith in my constituency started in July last year and looks set to continue as workers fight for free and equal treatment. Given the important work that is undertaken at that facility—not least to ensure that vital equipment is dispatched to Ukraine—will the Secretary of State personally intervene to break the stalemate, end the dispute once and for all, and provide equality for all workers at the Beith site?

[James Cartlidge]

I know how important this issue is to the hon. Lady. Differing rates are paid for workers with different skills and qualifications, which is normal practice in both the public and private sectors. I understand that a generous pay offer remains on the table. It would significantly improve the pay of the workers in dispute beyond the recent 2023 pay award, which has already significantly uplifted base pay for those specific workers, alongside over £4,000 in bonuses. It is disappointing that GMB members have voted to continue industrial action, but DE&S officials continue to be open to talks with the GMB on a constructive basis.

[James Sunderland (Bracknell) (Con)]

The pursuit of exquisite exclusivity in defence procurement is to be lauded, but can the Minister confirm that his Department is also focused on procuring the logistic platforms that we need to sustain it? Is it perhaps time for a defence operational capability audit to look into that key capability gap?

[James Cartlidge]

My hon. Friend makes an excellent point—of course, he speaks with great experience. As we have been stressing, the whole point of acquisition reform is, instead of seeking exquisite platforms, to go for 80% to get them into service faster and then to have spiral development. We think that that is the future of procurement.

[Mrs Emma Lewell-Buck (South Shields) (Lab)]

T9. Our nuclear veterans waited 70 years for recognition and are waiting even longer for justice. In a debate last year, the Minister promised “in the days ahead” to examine 150 documents relating to blood and urine tests held by the Atomic Weapons Establishment. What did his examination find?

[Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con)]

Ministers know that Sir John Moore barracks in my constituency is due for disposal in 2026 as part of the future soldier programme, which will bring phase 1 capability to the Pirbright site and put 900 houses in its place. Will a Minister meet me to ensure that the current ministerial team is right behind the move and, if it is, that we have an intelligent masterplan that does not just help Winchester City Council to meet its housing targets?

[James Cartlidge]

I am more than happy to meet my hon. Friend.

[Owen Thompson (Midlothian) (SNP)]

The 2023 armed forces satisfaction survey confirmed that half of personnel do not believe that their family benefit from being a service family. The impact of service life on family and personal life remains a top factor behind the intention to leave, so what does the Secretary of State propose to do to listen to forces families and implement policies to make a difference?

--- Later in debate ---

[Dave Doogan (Angus) (SNP)]

Clyde-built HMS Argyll is the oldest escort in the fleet. She is currently in refit in Devonport and has been since August ’22. Will the Minister for Defence Procurement advise when she will be recommissioned, re-crewed and back in service?

[James Cartlidge]

I will have to write to the hon. Gentleman on that one.

Service Accommodation

James Cartlidge Excerpts

Tuesday 19th December 2023 Westminster Hall

[The Minister for Defence Procurement (James Cartlidge)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Dame Angela. I am shadowed by your twin and chaired by you: as a father of twins, it is a pleasure to experience.

I congratulate the hon. Member for Mid Bedfordshire (Alistair Strathern) on securing his maiden Westminster Hall debate. I recently had an oral question from him about accommodation, so it is a credit to him that he is persisting, and that is true of other colleagues in the Chamber. He raised some very important points, primarily about the two bases in his constituency. On the overall point, which many colleagues made but he did in particular, I absolutely accept that this is a retention issue. Of course it is. It says a lot about the importance we place on the duty of our personnel to serve their country and our efforts to ensure that they have the best. I was quite open during oral questions, in referring to the winter plan, that we did not do well enough last winter. We have been determined to make up for that this year, and I will talk about the detail of that.

Make no mistake, the provision of high-quality subsidised accommodation for service personnel is a key priority for us. Horror stories such as we have heard, with rats, dry rot and so on, are disturbing. I reassure colleagues that, appalling though such instances are, they are unrepresentative of the experience of the vast majority of service people. In the constituency of the hon. Member for Mid Bedfordshire, for example, 96% of service family accommodation meets or exceeds Government decent home standards, which is almost identical to the national figure.

In the time available, I want to set out some of the key measures we have taken to rectify the situation to ensure that we improve our armed forces accommodation. I will start with single living accommodation. The Department provides a total of around 171,000 permanent, temporary and training bed spaces worldwide. As of 16 October, 92,000 service personnel were living in SLA. There have been longstanding concerns, rightly, among frontline commands that SLA is not up to scratch, which is why we are now implementing plans across the Navy, Army and Air Force to eliminate the worst accommodation. A Defence minimum standard has been established, which all SLA is expected to meet. As of 13 November, some 84% of rooms met the standard. That means that 13,347 did not, which falls well short of where we need to be. However, the intent is that, by April 2024, a further 30% of those will be upgraded. In the longer term, the Department will invest around £5.3 billion in SLA over the next 10 years to get homes up to standard. That will see us deliver approximately 40,000 new or refurbished bed spaces.

As Minister for Defence Procurement, I am well aware that day-to-day maintenance issues are unavoidable. They are the cause of considerable correspondence that I receive from colleagues from all parties. So it has proved in the past year, with several thousand issues relating to heating and hot water being reported. Any reports of vermin in SLA or service family accommodation —which I will come on to shortly—should be made to the national service centre, which will arrange for appropriate action including pest control if required, although I was interested to hear from the hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Richard Foord) about his experience with multiple contractors and so on.

Turning to SFA, the Government continue to invest significant sums to improve the quality of UK service family accommodation. Our Defence Infrastructure Organisation received an investment of £400 million over this financial year and the next as part of the defence Command Paper refresh. The £380.2 million forecast for this year is more than double last year’s investment in maintenance and improvements. As we have heard today, hon. Members are well aware of some of the issues, but it is investment that ultimately will lead to the change.

I want to set out some of the mitigations we have undertaken this year. We have established a dedicated hotline to address specific concerns with damp and mould, and we have improved the initial triage process to prioritise cases. That includes an onsite visit to apply initial treatment, to assess the need for follow-up and to decide whether a professional survey is required. We have also been working hard with our contractors to deliver around 4,000 standardised damp mitigation packages—I will come to the point about the remaining homes shortly—which include measures to increase insulation, replace guttering, upgrade extractor fans, replace radiators and reseal windows and doors. To date, more than 1,360 have been completed, and around 700 further packages are planned to be delivered early in the next financial year. The remaining homes with less severe instances of damp and mould are being dealt with through simple maintenance visits, so the vast majority of these tasks have already been completed.

Furthermore, our plan for this winter includes boiler and heating upgrades for about 1,500 homes. As the hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Luke Pollard) said, we are now entering wintertime, and I recognise colleagues’ concerns and how anxious they will be for reassurance that there will be no repeat of the slow response times during last year’s cold snap. The hon. Member for Mid Bedfordshire rightly spoke about telephone waiting times. We cannot have people left hanging on the phone in freezing homes waiting to speak to an engineer. On that front, it is worth pointing out that Pinnacle’s national service centre continues to maintain a strong performance. The average speed to answer rates in November were, for the ninth consecutive month, well within the 120 second average. The hon. Gentleman asked how many extra call handlers Pinnacle has taken on. The answer is 65, which means that most calls are now answered within 29 seconds—a very significant improvement.

I have another very important point to make to the hon. Gentleman. Before I respond to some of the other contributions, I want to update him on the status of Chicksands military base in his constituency of Mid Bedfordshire. Like me, he will be aware that rumours have been flying around about its future. I can confirm that, from 2030 onwards, it will be disposed of, but that will happen only when everybody has been relocated as part of a significant commitment to defence intelligence. The schedule will be refined as construction gets under way, and we will keep him informed as it progresses. Of course, I will write to him with full details, because I know how important it is for him. That will enable him to engage with his constituents and the service personnel based there.

[Luke Pollard]

I am sure my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Bedfordshire will be grateful for the information about his local base. Is that a change just for that one base, or is it part of a wider changing of closure times that will affect other bases around the country and that the Minister may wish to update the House about?

--- Later in debate ---

[James Cartlidge]

I was referring specifically to the constituency of the hon. Member for Mid Bedfordshire, and I will write to him with the full details, as I said.

I turn to other colleagues’ contributions. The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) referred to a discrepancy. To be completely frank, I was not aware of that so I implore him to write to me with the full details. He illustrated how important this issue is in every part of the Union, so I pay tribute to him for his contribution—and he was not called last, which was a great benefit to today’s debate.

I also pay tribute to the hon. Member for North Shropshire (Helen Morgan), who has raised this issue with me previously in oral questions and has been a doughty campaigner on it. I know she has had some significant issues in Clive, for example. On the current position, the figures on damp and mould represents 62% of the total outstanding that we believe need treatment, and 1,360 have been completed to date. She also spoke about the impact on health. I understand the importance of that, which is why we were so determined to get extra money in and why I announced the winter plan showing how damp and mould packages will be implemented for individual properties.

[Helen Morgan]

On the point about bases that is to be closed, Clive barracks is due to be closed in 2029. Is there is a risk that, because it has a finite lifespan, we are not putting in the investment we need and that we are accepting poor-quality accommodation for what is still a good number of years? What is the Minister’s plan to address that?

[James Cartlidge]

That is a fair question. I was talking about the minimum standards that we require, which apply to about 96% of our estate. To reassure the hon. Lady, they apply irrespective of whether the accommodation is not planned for disposal or otherwise.

The hon. Lady also asked about Annington. She will be aware that it has been subject to court action recently and therefore, although she made an excellent point, I am very restricted in what I can say publicly. Certainly, it is an issue to keep an eye on.

I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton for his service in the Adjutant General’s Corps. He made a very good point about contracts, which of course are important. We should be wary of assuming that another arrangement would be necessarily cheaper or more efficient, but there is no doubt that there were major issues in the initial transition. We have now seen an improvement on some key performance indicators, but where performance has fallen short, we have, where appropriate, withheld profit.

The hon. Member for Angus (Dave Doogan) spoke about engagement with armed forces personnel. All I can say is that as Minister for Defence Procurement, I am responsible for the estate, and when I have been out visiting the estate I generally find that there is a way of having regular engagement on the condition of accommodation. I saw that recently when I visited Odiham with my right hon. Friend the Member for North East Hampshire (Mr Jayawardena). That meant a great deal to the service personnel that we met, so regular engagement does happen in respect of accommodation.

[Dave Doogan]

I recognise the dynamic that the Minister is talking about, although not from a ministerial point of view. When we speak to service personnel, they are frank. What he is detailing is an informal, ad hoc discussion. What I was requesting was clarity on why the UK objects to having a formalised defence service recognition body.

[James Cartlidge]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman but I think that is an important way to conduct that. We should not get carried away with the idea of formalising all these things. Of course, we want to have a good relationship with our armed forces personnel. The key to that is ensuring they have good quality accommodation.

I will conclude by joining colleagues in saying, as we head towards Christmas, that it is absolutely right that our thoughts are with our armed forces, particularly those deployed overseas. As chair of the Defence Nuclear Board, I particularly remember those who serve to support our continuous at-sea deterrent in our submarines. It is fair to say that I was clear at oral questions and today that last winter we did not do well enough. Too many families waited too long for solutions to the problems they faced.

That is why we have got the extra money in place, which is a significant increase in funding of £400 million. In the winter plan, we show the impact that that will have. We have a plan, we are investing and we are fixing problems, though we know more needs to be done. I congratulate the hon. Member for Mid Bedfordshire on calling this important debate.

Ukraine

James Cartlidge Excerpts

Tuesday 19th December 2023 Commons Chamber

[John Healey (Wentworth and Dearne) (Lab)]

(Urgent Question): To ask the Secretary of State for Defence to make a statement on the war in Ukraine.

[The Minister for Defence Procurement (James Cartlidge)]

Since the Minister for the Armed Forces last updated the House on 28 November, the situation on the ground has remained largely unchanged. Ukraine has been fortifying its border with Belarus with dragon’s teeth, razor wire and anti-tank ditches, and is pivoting to a more defensive posture following Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky’s call on 1 December for rapid fortification across the front.

On 12 December, Kyivstar, Ukraine’s largest mobile network operator, suffered a cyber-attack. The incident is likely one of the highest impact disruptive cyber-attacks on Ukrainian networks since the start of Russia’s full-scale invasion. The Russian air force is highly likely to have carried out the first use of the AS-24 Killjoy air-launched ballistic missile since August 2023. Killjoy has almost certainly had a mixed combat debut. Many of its launches have likely missed their intended targets, while Ukraine has also succeeded in shooting down examples of the supposedly undefeatable system.

We will continue to support priority areas for Ukraine in the coming months, including air defence and hardening critical national infrastructure sites. Our foundational supply of critical artillery ammunition continues. Most recently, on 11 December, the Defence Secretary announced that the UK will lead a new maritime capability coalition alongside Norway, delivering ships and vehicles to strengthen Ukraine’s ability to operate at sea. This represents a step change in the UK’s support for Ukraine in both defending against Russia’s illegal and unprovoked invasion and developing Ukraine’s future maritime capability. The new coalition will deliver long-term support to Ukraine, including training, equipment, and infrastructure to bolster security in the Black sea. We could not be more clear: as the Prime Minster has said, we are in this for as much and as long as it takes.

The maritime capability coalition initiative reinforces our collective long-term commitment to Ukraine and provides a permanent mechanism through which we can support the development of Ukraine’s maritime capability. Agreed during recent meetings of the 50-nation-strong Ukraine defence contact group, it forms part of a series of capability coalitions to strengthen Ukraine’s operations in other domains including on land and in the air. On 13 and 14 December, the Ministry of Defence, along with the Department of Business and Trade, successfully conducted the first UK trade mission to Kyiv since the invasion in 2022. The mission enabled discussions with and between UK and Ukraine officials and industry on opportunities for long-term co-operation, and resulted in tangible agreements for industry.

The UK has committed £4.6 billion of military support to date, as we continue to donate significant amounts of ammunition and matériel from our own stocks, as well as those purchased from across the globe. In addition, we have trained more than 52,000 soldiers since 2015. The UK and our allies have been clear that we will not stand by as the Kremlin persists in its disregard for the sovereignty of Ukraine and international law. That includes the recognition of Ukraine’s sovereignty over its territorial waters, which is established in accordance with international maritime law.

[John Healey]

I thank the Minister for his words but, with due respect, the House should hear from the Defence Secretary himself. He may have urgent business today—we understand that—but he has been in post for four months and he has not made an oral statement in Parliament on Ukraine, from the top, to reassure Ukrainians that Britain will stand with them for as long as it takes to win, to warn President Putin that Britain remains resolute in confronting Russian aggression, and to explain to people why the defence of the UK starts in Ukraine. This is a war in Europe. Last week, nearly two years on, Putin declared that his goals have not changed. If he prevails, he will not stop at Ukraine. That is why the Government have had, and will continue to have, Labour’s fullest support for military aid to Ukraine and for reinforcing NATO allies.

Ukrainians face another winter with war, and another tough year beyond. Yesterday, a top general said that they face ammunition shortages across the entire frontline. At the very time Ukraine needs unfailing support, the UK is falling behind other nations: no new UK weaponry since July; no UK military funding for next year; and no 2024 plan for Ukraine. The UK is united behind Ukraine. I am proud of the UK leadership on Ukraine, but I want to be proud in six months’ time. When will the military aid funding for next year be agreed? Will it be multi-year? When will the international fund for Ukraine commit the half a billion pounds so far unspent? How many next-generation light anti-tank weapons have been produced under the new contract signed 12 months ago, and delivered to Ukraine? Another two minehunter ships were announced last week for Ukraine—the same ships pledged by Ministers in June 2021.

Madam Deputy Speaker, 2024 will be a critical year for Ukraine. We must have the Defence Secretary himself in the House to set out the UK’s plans—military, economic and diplomatic—to support Ukraine through 2024 and beyond.

[James Cartlidge]

I am extremely proud to stand here and defend the Government’s very strong record in supporting Ukraine. The Secretary of State gave a very important statement yesterday on the future of UK fast jet capability, and the trade mission that we sent to Ukraine last week makes it timely that I stand here now. The public understand the huge amount of support that we have given, and it is important to emphasise that we now need to move to the next phase—the long term—of helping Ukraine’s industry to support itself, working closely with Ukrainian partners. As procurement Minister, I have that as an absolute priority, as demonstrated in the last week by the trade mission.

On the right hon. Gentleman’s other points, I totally agree about the risk of Putin prevailing, and I am grateful for the cross-party support. On ammunition shortages, he specifically asked about NLAWs. Of course, that is not the only anti-tank weapon we have sent. In total, we have sent around 10,000 anti-tank weapons to Ukraine, plus about 4 million small-round ammo, 300,000 artillery shells, 20 AS90 self-propelled guns, a squadron of tanks and a huge amount of air defence systems and uncrewed systems. The list goes on: 82,000 helmets, and training for over 50,000 Ukrainians in the UK to enable them to go back and fight for the freedom of their country. I am very proud of that record, but the Prime Minister has been clear: we know there is much more to do.

[Sir Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)]

I agree with my hon. Friend that we have sent a great deal of ammunition to Ukraine. The question is, have we been able to replace that ammunition, especially in the context of a war that seems to be attritional and likely to go on for a considerable amount of time?

[James Cartlidge]

My right hon. Friend is an expert in these matters, and always asks pertinent questions. My constituents strongly support the effort we have undertaken to give all the weapons we have to Ukraine—not all gifted from this country, it should be stressed. Equally, they want us to replenish those stocks. That is why we have already signed contracts for NLAWs and lightweight multi-role missiles, and we have already taken delivery of the Archer 6x6, which is the interim replacement for the AS90 gun. It happens in parallel. We have to keep supporting Ukraine but, absolutely, we put the additional money from the budget to support the replenishment of our own armed forces.

[Dave Doogan (Angus) (SNP)]

We are approaching dangerous territory with regards to the west’s ongoing support for those who fight for our democracy and the rule of law in the trenches and farm buildings of eastern Ukraine. We see Putin’s plan to sit and wait while democracies lose interest in Ukraine come to fruition, in politically motivated budget wrangling in Washington, in the clientelism of Hungarian President Viktor Orbán, in the exhausted replenishment efforts of the west’s defence industry and in the vagaries of the west’s media cycle. The west must act decisively and with endurance to thwart Putin’s plan, and the SNP stands fully behind the Government’s actions to deliver on that priority.

The Foreign Secretary has confirmed that the UK will continue to support Ukraine in the defence against Putin. What further details can this Defence Minister provide about that, and about what discussions the Secretary of State for Defence—it is a pity that he is not here—has had with the Foreign Secretary about the continued support for Ukraine? What will it look like, and what will be the scale of it? Finally, can the UK Government encourage, through some means, the Government and the Prime Minister of Hungary to lift their block on EU funding for Ukraine?

[James Cartlidge]

I believe that until recently the hon. Gentleman was a member of the Defence Committee, and I am grateful for that support from him and from his party. He asked a number of questions, but I think the most important was the one about what we could say about the support we are providing for Ukraine right now.

In my opening remarks I emphasised the importance of the maritime capability coalition, and Members will be more than aware of the importance of the Black sea and getting grain out of Ukraine. Since that corridor reopened, some 5 million tonnes of grain have been exported, and it is extremely important for us to retain that. We should also recognise that Ukraine has had significant success in pushing the Russian fleet eastwards to enable that to happen. However, we must not be complacent, which is why we are providing this naval support. We and Norway are joint leaders of the MCC, and when I visited Norway last week, it was clear that we are very strong naval partners because of the shared threat to our home waters that we face from Russian submarines, but we will keep on looking at what more we can do, and I am grateful to Members in all parts of the House for their support.

[Jeremy Quin (Horsham) (Con)]

In response to the question from the right hon. Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey), my hon. Friend referred to UK companies helping Ukraine to build out its own defence capabilities. That is obviously to be welcomed, but can he also reassure us that the work we are doing to resupply Ukraine is an opportunity we are seizing to broaden and deepen UK defence capabilities, so that in the worst-case scenarios we can enhance our own ability to restock ourselves and our allies?

[James Cartlidge]

It is a pleasure to take a question from my right hon. Friend. He was an excellent Minister for Defence Procurement and an excellent Minister generally, and I always enjoyed the many Cobra meetings that were overseen by him, but he speaks with equal strength from the Back Benches, and his question is very important. When it comes to opportunities for future industrial production in Ukraine, I would like to see an opportunity for us to work together for our mutual benefit to create ordnance not just for Ukraine but for ourselves, because maximising that demand signal is the best way in which to secure the strongest possible military industrial base.

[John Spellar (Warley) (Lab)]

I readily acknowledge the support that we have given to Ukraine to try and ensure that Putin cannot win. That is an objective shared in all parts of the House, but the scale of the conflict requires more, especially in the form of artillery and munitions. Why did it take the Government more than a year to sign the contract for new capacity for shell production, not only for Ukraine but to restock our own supplies?

[James Cartlidge]

The right hon. Gentleman is entirely right, and he speaks with experience as a former Defence Minister, but we have signed the contract on the 155 shell, as the Prime Minister announced last July. That contract sits alongside many others, including the lightweight multi-role missile and STARStreak contracts. This is, of course, for our own defence, but, as I have said, we recently delivered the 300,000th artillery shell to Ukraine, and we should be proud of that effort.

[Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)]

It is clearly very important that we support our friends in Ukraine, but it is equally important that we support our NATO allies in the region, such as Romania. My hon. Friend has mentioned the support being given in the Black sea. The port of Constanta is vital to the export of Ukrainian grain and other produce, so may I ask what extra support the Government are giving to Romania to ensure that this vital sea lane is kept free?

--- Later in debate ---

[James Cartlidge]

My hon. Friend has made an excellent point. I recently had the pleasure of meeting my Romanian counterpart in the main building at the Ministry of Defence, and we spoke about a number of issues. Like us, the Romanians are absolutely committed to supporting Ukraine. I think that Romania is one of the countries that are joining the MCC, but I will check that and write to my hon. Friend. We need to work closely with allies on these wider strategic issues.

[Tulip Siddiq (Hampstead and Kilburn) (Lab)]

Last month I was concerned to note that the Chancellor barely mentioned Ukraine in his autumn statement, and since then he has made hardly any new commitments to supporting its people. The Government and the Opposition have stood shoulder to shoulder with Ukraine, and the UK must not waver in its leadership on this issue. Can the Minister reassure me—and, more important, can he reassure the families who have come from Ukraine and settled in my constituency—that the UK will be committed to supporting Ukraine in the coming months?

[James Cartlidge]

Absolutely: I can send that message to the families—and, by the way, the hon. Lady has also made an important point in reminding us of the huge generosity that we have shown by taking in so many of those families, a number of whom are in my constituency. I can certainly reassure her, on the basis of what has happened literally in the last week. We should be judged not by words but by action, having created a maritime coalition that will support the crucial strategic interests of the Black sea. I am talking about access to the Black sea, security, and the ability to get grain in and out. We have also continued to provide those crucial weapons, including air defence systems.

[Bob Seely (Isle of Wight) (Con)]

I congratulate the Government on their global leadership, which we all recognise, but a couple of matters concern me. First, the importance of supplying basic kit has been stressed by Members on both sides of the House. The supply of 155 and 155-2 shells is critical, and it needs a long-term plan. It is great that we have supplied 300,000 shells, but the Russians are using up to 15,000 shells a day, and the Ukrainians are responding with between 3,000 and 7,000, so this is a massive artillery war. Secondly, Putin’s regime is gaining ground politically because the Russians are holding ground while they target western support. So the long-term supply is critical physically, but it is also critical in terms of the message we send that we are not cutting and running but are in for the long haul.

[James Cartlidge]

My hon. Friend, who of course served in intelligence, makes some excellent points. On the particular importance of artillery, I have already spoken about the volume of shells and the guns that have been gifted, but I should add the spare parts to support them, which are easy to forget about. I spoke earlier about the Ukraine defence contact group. I recently attended a Teams call with all my fellow Ministers involved in that, under US leadership. Country after country listed its latest gifting, including artillery and many other munitions. However, my hon. Friend is right to say that we need a long-term plan. I think there is huge determination across the west and all our allies to continue this effort. Of course it is challenging, but that is why we need to bring in that additional element of ensuring that Ukrainian industry can start to rise to the occasion.

[Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab)]

The language from the Government remains robust, but the details of practical help, military and otherwise, are lacking. There are 12 days left of this year, and we still do not have a full schedule for what aid the Government will provide for 2024. When can we expect to have it?

[James Cartlidge]

I respect the hon. Gentleman, with whom I spent time at the Ministry of Justice, but he has suggested that this is “talk”. We are one of the key reasons why Ukraine is still a free country. It has regained about 50% of the land taken by Russia, and we played a decisive role in that. I know that there is strong consensus on keeping it going, but I hope that that can be recognised. I have already listed the enormous amount of ordnance that we have provided: 300,000 artillery shells and 400 million rounds of ammunition. Of course we want to keep on doing that, and we are. I have also explained how we will be supporting Ukraine in the naval domain, which I believe will be crucial.

[Mr Louie French (Old Bexley and Sidcup) (Con)]

My constituency has warmly welcomed many Ukrainians to our community, and we are supportive of the UK Government’s ongoing efforts to back Ukraine and our NATO allies. Can my hon. Friend update the House on the support for Ukraine’s own military industrial capacity?

[James Cartlidge]

That too is an excellent question. I spoke earlier about the visit last week. Why is that so important? It is important because, as I said, we know there is huge support across the country, and indeed across Parliament, for the efforts that we have undertaken to support Ukraine. However, we now need to help its industry to support it. I think that our defence industry, which is world-leading, can play a key role in that, and I am very pleased that major UK primes were out there last week, already starting to sign agreements with their Ukrainian counterparts.

[Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab)]

In July this year, I had the opportunity to visit Ukraine with Siobhan’s Trust and the right hon. Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith). It was clear that many of the soldiers were being injured and were not receiving enough support, and also that training was a huge issue. I realise that there are sensitivities surrounding what western countries can do when it comes to providing training, but can the Minister explain what kind of help is being provided for soldiers, in terms of recovery but also to ensure that they have proper support so that they are not going into conflict—into war—unprepared?

[James Cartlidge]

The hon. Lady asks an excellent question on training. It was one of my most insightful visits as a Defence Minister early on to go to Salisbury plain and see the Irish Guards, together with our New Zealand and Australian colleagues, training Ukrainians who, let us be frank, would have some weeks of training then go out to experience pretty severe trench warfare. I am proud of the role we played in that, but she is right to say that a crucial part of it is the medical element. I believe that we have trained around 65 medical personnel, but I will check that detail and write to her, because this is important.

[Mark Logan (Bolton North East) (Con)]

Recently the United States has been wobbling over funding. What assessments do our Government make of that and of how we engage in Ukraine? This is the second Christmas that many Ukrainians will be experiencing in a time not in peace. Could the Minister send the Government’s gratitude to organisations such as the Ukrainian Social and Cultural Centre in Bolton, headed by Yaroslaw Tymchyshyn, during what should be a joyous time for families around the world but is a difficult time for the Ukrainian community?

[James Cartlidge]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right to champion the community groups supporting Ukraine. On his other point about the US, I can only speak from my own experience. I referred to the contact group meeting we had on Teams recently. Secretary Austin led that from the beginning to the end, emphasising all the way through that as far as he was concerned, the US was in it for the long haul. I believe that that is the case. This is about freedom. Freedom is at stake here. We have fought this far to protect it, and we have to keep doing that job if we are to defend freedom across our continent.

[Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab)]

In August this year, the then Defence Secretary said that he would publish the action plan for Ukraine in 2023. Will it be published before the end of the year?

[James Cartlidge]

I simply say to the right hon. Lady, as I have been saying throughout, that we are delivering action every week in Ukraine. The amount of ordnance we have supplied and continue to supply—particularly in terms of air defence, which is now increasingly crucial—is huge. I have listed the many numbers. Some of it, of course, we cannot talk about. There are technologies that we are testing out there, ensuring that our munitions are successful. What I can say is that if we look at the work of the Defence Science and Technology Laboratory, for example—as I say, I cannot talk about the detail—we can see that it has had a huge bearing on the impact of what we have donated into theatre.

[Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)]

I welcome the support that the Government have given, and indeed the lead that they have taken, in ensuring that while others were dragging their feet we gave support to Ukraine in its vital defence of freedom. As it is clear that the Russians are now settling in for a long war, consolidating the ground that they have taken and hoping to sit out the west’s opposition to their invasion, can the Minister give us some indication whether he is ensuring that we have the physical capacity to continue our support and that we are making the necessary financial commitments? What plans does he have to launch a diplomatic offensive to ensure that people stay in line on giving support to Ukraine?

[James Cartlidge]

We are trying to do all those things. I should like to put on record that it was an absolute pleasure to visit the right hon. Gentleman’s constituency to launch Armed Forces Week back in the summer. I know that he is a passionate supporter of our armed forces and of our efforts in Ukraine, and that he shares my pride in the provision of NLAW, which is made in Belfast. He is absolutely right on all those counts, and on the diplomatic one in particular. There’s huge unity in the west. We all know that the stakes are incredibly high, but we now have to persist. We are all in it for the long haul.

[Justin Madders (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab)]

It is clearly Putin’s strategy to sit this out as long as is necessary in the hope that Ukraine’s allies lose the political will to provide the support that has been there so far. In that regard, the Foreign Secretary indicated to the other place earlier this month that he was prepared to increase the amount of funding available to Ukraine next year. Is the Minister able to confirm that that is indeed the case and tell us how much additional funding will be in place?

[James Cartlidge]

The hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that these matters are still under discussion. The Prime Minister has been clear about the strength of our commitment, and I go back to the previous point made by the right hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson), which backs this up. A huge way in which we have ensured support and funding for Ukraine is not just from what we have provided but by being a convenor of an international effort. We have played a decisive role in that, but of course there is more to do.

[Gavin Newlands (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (SNP)]

Those of us on the SNP Benches remain steadfast in our support for Ukraine in its defence against its unprovoked Russian aggressor. Ukraine has been given substantial support by a great many countries, particularly the UK and the USA, but as we have heard, that support is under threat. How concerned is the Minister about the rhetoric on Ukraine aid that is coming from the US Republicans driven by Donald Trump, who is too busy praising Vladimir Putin, and about what that means for the US’s aid to Ukraine in the long term?

[James Cartlidge]

I respect the point that the hon. Gentleman makes, but I hear nothing but total support for Ukraine from the US Administration. They recognise the strategic issues. Let us be clear about this. To all voices in the US and elsewhere, this is not just about Ukraine. As the shadow Secretary of State said earlier, we should not underestimate what the impact would have been, had Russia succeeded early on in terms of other strategic issues, not least China and so on. We have to see the big picture, and that means standing together as allies.

[Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)]

The Minister is clear about the support for Ukraine from the UK, but does he agree that it is important that we keep full support from our NATO allies? Two weeks ago at the transatlantic NATO forum, I and other delegates were concerned about the lukewarm response from certain members of Congress on continuing support. What more can we do to get the message across to members of Congress that the commitment is not only solid here but also backed by cash, with around $133 billion coming from the UK and the European institutions?

--- Later in debate ---

[James Cartlidge]

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman; this follows on from the previous point. As I said, when I look at the US I see steadfast support in the Administration in terms of the enormous amount of munitions they have provided and in many other ways, including financially, and I hope that that can continue. My observation from the contact group was that, day to day, they are leading that and ensuring that we, with them, continue to convene other nations. But the right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right: we all need to be in it for the long haul.

[Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi (Slough) (Lab)]

The Minister obfuscated and did not properly answer the question from my right hon. Friend the Member for Walsall South (Valerie Vaz), so let me try again. In a bid to provide long-term certainty of UK support for our friends in Ukraine to help repel Russia’s invasion, the Defence Secretary’s predecessor last August promised a 2023 action plan for Ukraine, but it is still nowhere to be seen and there are less than two weeks of 2023 left. So, Minister, why has this action plan not been published and when will it be?

[James Cartlidge]

I was not obfuscating; I was simply referring to the actual actions we have been delivering on the ground, day in, day out, in Ukraine right from the beginning and before—after all, we have been training Ukrainians since 2014. So yes, we are delivering action on the ground and it has helped to keep Ukraine a free country, largely.

[Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab)]

The signals that we send from this place are obviously important, as I am sure the Minister will agree, and in the messages that we are hearing from the EU and the US there is perhaps some wavering going on. I come back to the previous question and that of my right hon. Friend the Member for Walsall South. Will the Minister commit today to publishing the action plan for Ukraine before the end of this year?

[James Cartlidge]

Well of course, this is the last sitting day. I would simply say—[Interruption.] I might sound like a stuck record, but this is so important. In this game, what matters is what we actually do on the ground. We have just announced a maritime coalition. We continue to send air defence systems, which are incredibly important. We have sent 300,000 artillery shells, thousands and thousands of helmets, 4 million pieces of small arms ammo. This is what matters. This is the action that delivers. We know there is more to do, and we are going to keep playing that role.

[Richard Foord (Tiverton and Honiton) (LD)]

The Russian energy giant Gazprom earned £39 million last year from the North sea Sillimanite gas field, which is partly underneath UK waters. Gazprom is majority owned by the Russian state and is Russia’s largest taxpayer. Will the Minister talk to his counterparts in the Department for Business and Trade to avoid a situation where UK defence is giving generous military aid while the new Office of Trade Sanctions Implementation overlooks the Russian state funding of its aggression from the proceeds of the sale of North sea gas?

[James Cartlidge]

I am happy to look into that further.

[Anna McMorrin (Cardiff North) (Lab)]

Two years in and the hardship and devastation continue for the people of Ukraine, especially as we enter the harsh winter months. Western officials have repeatedly assessed that Russian forces are currently firing artillery at a rate five to seven times greater than their Ukrainian counterparts. What more are the Government doing to ensure an adequate supply of ammunition for Ukraine to win this war?

[James Cartlidge]

The hon. Lady is absolutely right to talk about the issues arising as we move into winter, which obviously brings its own challenges. I have spoken about the significant amount of ordnance supplied to date. As she knows, we do not talk about the specifics of how it arrives in country. Needless to say, we work strongly with our allies and, of course, with the Ukrainian armed forces. The key point is that we continue to work strongly on supplying munitions into Ukraine, but our trade mission was one of the most important developments because we now have to focus on helping Ukrainian industry to manufacture its own arms. We want to do that jointly with Ukraine. We have a strong track record of world-leading defence businesses, which is part of the key to this.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the Minister for his positive response. No one, inside or outside this House, can doubt the commitment of the United Kingdom Government and Ministers to helping Ukraine.

As the hustle and bustle of Christmas is upon us, it is easy for us to forget that Ukraine is still at war and holding its own against Russian aggression. Can the Minister update the House on how families with children are receiving aid and education to ensure that we do not have a lost generation of young adults with no learning and no vocational training?

[James Cartlidge]

As ever, we save the best for last. It is always a pleasure to take questions from the hon. Gentleman, who always speaks with such passion and compassion. He is absolutely right about this important issue. We have been talking about financial support and, as he will be aware, the totality of our support to Ukraine—not just military aid but humanitarian aid—is £9.3 billion. Of course we need to focus on the humanitarian side but, ultimately, I feel most proud of our contribution when I imagine what would have happened if Ukraine had been totally conquered. That does not bear thinking about.