Commons Chamber

Wednesday 11th February 2026

(began 2 days, 19 hours ago)

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None Portrait Oral questions: Northern Ireland
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Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi one, please, Mr. Speaker.
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None Portrait Q7. What steps he is taking to help ensure adequate accountability for Troubles-era violence for members of the IRA. (907740)
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Sir David David. Just told you.
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None Portrait Prime Minister's Question Time: Prime Minister
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None Portrait Ten Minute Rule Motion: Short-Term Let Accommodation (Data Sharing Requirements)
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rule. Bill. Rachel Rachel Blake.
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Rachel Blake Portrait Rachel Blake MP (Cities of London and Westminster, Labour )
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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I beg to move that leave be given to bring move that leave be given to bring in a bill to require certain persons or organisations to share specified data relating to the short term letting of accommodation with regulatory authorities to

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amend the Data Protection Act 2018, in connection with that requirement and for connected purposes. Yeah, yeah.

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Yeah, yeah. Mr. speaker, I am honoured to represent the cities of London and Westminster in the heart of London, Westminster in the heart of London, a truly unique constituency, in a number of ways. How many can say that they have the Tate Britain, that they have the Tate Britain, Ronnie Scott's and Abbey Road Studios on their patch? How many Studios on their patch? How many can boast 78,000 businesses and 2 million jobs? And how many can point to having been the home for a unique wealth of historical figures like Mary Seacole, Millicent Fawcett and Aluda Equiano.

But this centrality does come at the cost of one of the most competitive housing markets in the world, where long term residents are forced to compete against commercial real estate, luxury developers and foreign oligarchs. Chief among the forces hollowing out our communities is the unchecked proliferation of short term letting hosts on Airbnb, Booking.com and other sites. These individuals turn our homes into hotels, our communities into commodities, and our neighbours into Night-Time nuisances. My inbox is full of such stories.

Fire services being called because of guests leaving cookers on, families with children being kept up with drug fuelled James Bond themed parties taking place right next door, night after night, and even organised crime outfits renting out apartments for a weekend to harass Londoners, snatching phones and wallets before leaving with their ill gotten gains. Amidst this bad behaviour is the flagrant breach of the London wide regulation that short lets operate for no more than 90 nights per year without planning permission. This is operationally impossible to enforce because of how difficult it is to get accurate information on how many nights a short term let is being used.

Mr. speaker, in some parts of my constituency, as many as 30% of homes are being used as short term lets, and in the process, making the homes that are left less affordable for long term residents. Research from King's College London shows that doubling the density of short term lets is associated with an 8% growth in per bedroom rental prices, or more than £4,500 per year This overheated housing market has become unaffordable for locals and hollowed out communities like those in the West End, which was historically the beating heart cultural heart of London, home to William Blake, Shelley and Constable.

The average one bed flat in Soho costs £2,400 a month to rent privately, over double what they would have been at the turn of the millennium. And at the same time, average prices have tripled from £300,000 to nearly £1 million when non-residential forces crowd into a residential market. It's working people who are the losers. It is no coincidence that Soho's population has been shrunk by two thirds over the same time period, and that the knock on effects of these changes are felt.

Since my election, I have had to fight for institutions used by local residents, including schools and community facilities such as the Jubilee Hall gym and the central YMCA to stay open. And frequently their landlords have complained about a lack of footfall. Mr Speaker London isn't just special because of its landmarks or its economy, it's special because of its people, its historic communities living and working together and generating some of the greatest cultural and social achievements produced by this country.

And if we want to keep London as a world leading city, we need to ensure that its people can afford to make a home here and that they feel safe and at ease living here. We have to fight for this city, and that is exactly what I intend to do. I would like to take a moment to pay tribute to the City of Westminster's pioneering short term lets team who work day in and day out to enforce existing rules around illegal subletting and the 90 day rule and anti-social behaviour in problem properties.

Since coming into power in 2022, Labour has doubled their size and I have been working with them. Launching a short term lets commission directly reporting properties flagged by my constituents to council officers and ensuring they are taken off these sites for good. And the government is on the side of my constituents too, in pushing forward with a mandatory short term Lets registration scheme. This will be the first time to give us a clear, uncontested data on where the short term lets are and who is operating them.

Hosts will have to enter their properties address and receive a unique reference number, which will then appear on all sites where it is let, and they will have to confirm that they are following existing regulations which apply to short term lets such as fire, gas and electrical certificates. This will be transformative for how we enforce short term lets in London with the unique reference number. Teams like those in Westminster will be able to make much more easily pinpoint problem properties and take them off major sites for good.

But there is a piece of information which this scheme must collect, which right now we cannot. The number of nights for which homes are being let out. Without this crucial data, enforcing the 90 day limit will remain an elusive task to local authority planning enforcement teams. Data from Airdna indicates that nearly 6000 short lets in the cities of London and Westminster are being let out over the 90 day limit. These are almost certainly the worst offenders when it comes to the other community disruptions, which I have already mentioned.

If we simply made these actors follow the law or better still, took them off the market entirely, we would significantly reduce the disruption caused by short term letting. So why can't we take this data is because of the Data Protection Act, which currently prevents this information from being shared. While crucial for ensuring that our personal data is more secure than in comparable countries outside of the EU. In this case, the Data Protection Act is standing in the way of effectively regulating short term lets.

A number of exemptions do, however, exist in the legislation, and my motion today would extend this exemption to include the number of nights short term lets are used. This, however, cannot be the only action which is needed on tackling short term lets. Time and time again, my constituents do bring up licensing as a possible solution to the spread of short term lets, backed by reams of research from policy experts. Just as if a business were applying to open a bar or a cafe in a local area, so too should a short let host have to apply to their local authority before opening what is, in essence, a micro hotel in the middle of a residential block.

While every local authority should be able to undertake their own approach to this, local authorities like Westminster and the City of London, where concentrations are so high, need to have the power to decide where homes can be let out and under what conditions. The government's upcoming database is a crucial step in this direction, as it can, for the first time ever, provide an authoritative data set on the extent of this problem, and this will benefit members of Parliament and their constituents across the country.

My constituents are ready to engage with this database and report poor practice. The local authorities I work with are on hand to upscale their work, which the benefits of it can bring. All we need now is this final piece of the puzzle. Knowing how many nights homes are let out for this piece is well within our grasp, and

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it is up to us in this house to deliver it. Hey! That the hon. Member have lived

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That the hon. Member have lived to bring in the bill. The question is that the hon. Member have leave is that the hon. Member have leave to bring in the bill, as many are of that opinion, say I. The contrary. No, I think the ayes have contrary. No, I think the ayes have it. The ayes have it. Who will

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prepare to bring in Rachel Blake? Lizzi Collinge. Florence Eshalomi. Dame Meg Hillier. Alison Hume. Jayne Kirkham. Joe Powell. Anna Gelderd. Will Stone. Noah Law

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Rachel Rachel Blake.

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Short Short term Short term let

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Short term let Short term let accommodation data sharing requirements bill.

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Second Reading. What day? 27th of. February.

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February. 27th of February. Point of order Speaker.

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Speaker. I'd be grateful for your advice as to how I register my utter disgust at the Member of Parliament disgust at the Member of Parliament for the City of London and Westminster, scoring a cheap political point about me visiting a

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political point about me visiting a synagogue in this constituency. Well, first of all, it's not a point of order and you are correct it by putting on the record. What I would say is a point of order is made, and this is where I stand by my ruling. If you were visiting for prayer or visiting in a private capacity, one wouldn't be expected to be told. But if one is doing it in an official position and are going to a synagogue as an invite, it is only right that is on all of us.

To ensure that the Member of Parliament is aware, and I will leave it at that. I'm not going to continue the debate, but just want to reaffirm to all members, whether shadow Ministers or Ministers or backbenchers, please ensure the Member of Parliament is aware of a Member of Parliament is aware of a visit. And when I say a visit, not in a private capacity but in a political capacity. Order, order a point of order.
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Sarah Jones Portrait Sarah Jones MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Croydon West, Labour)
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Kingsbury High in Brent yesterday. I know we all hope that those I know we all hope that those who've been injured will be able to recover and that justice will be recover and that justice will be done in a very difficult situation. I also want to take the opportunity, before I come to the detail, to pay tribute to the men and women who work to protect the rest of us from work to protect the rest of us from harm. I did not need to become policing Minister to appreciate the debt of gratitude that is owed to these dedicated public servants, but it is right to say that having the honour of serving in this post has given me a daily insight of the remarkable work of our police.

I'm sure the whole house will join me in expressing gratitude to the officers, staff and volunteers who are, as we speak, performing their duties with professionalism, skill and courage. We are all fortunate to have so many brave individuals dedicated to keeping us safe, whether they be first responders turning towards danger, PCSOs immersed in their neighbourhoods or staff working behind the scenes to track the latest threats to the public. And that is why our record cash investment in the policing system for England and Wales is so important.

We are determined to provide our police forces with the resources they need to continue their vital work, as well as support as well as support to invest in their future in 20 2627. Overall funding for the policing system in England and Wales will be up to £21 billion. This is an increase of £1.3 billion compared to 20 2526. Funding available to local police forces will total up to 18.4 billion, an increase of £796 million from 20 2526. This is an increase of 2.3% in real terms.

Of this funding increase, 432 million will come from additional government grant, whilst 364 million will come from police precept. Assuming PCCs choose to maximise the £15 limit. Furthermore, we have worked with a small group of forces who evidenced particular financial pressures to agree additional precept flexibility. The settlement also includes at least 1.2 billion for counter-terrorism policing, to preserve national security and guard against the most severe threats, as is the primary duty of any government.

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As the Minister. I thank the. Minister for giving way. She's getting into the detail of the funding package. Will she just accept two broad points? The first is on Labour's watch. The overall is on Labour's watch. The overall number of police officers in England has fallen, and second, because of cost pressures on police because of cost pressures on police forces from other decisions taken by her government. The Association by her government. The Association of Police Commissioners has said there is a £500 million shortfall in the allocation of funding from this government to police forces.



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With £21 billion going in overall

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With £21 billion going in overall into policing and 18.4 billion direct going into our police forces, I do not accept that there is a I do not accept that there is a shortfall in funding. There is more money going into policing this year than there was last year by hundreds of millions of pounds on hundreds of millions of pounds on his first point, and I suspect the frontbench will try to make the same points. We have, having worked with police chiefs, both introduced a big package of reform but also removed the arbitrary headcount targets for officer numbers that local forces found so difficult to navigate because they were pushed into recruiting officers and putting them behind desks to do jobs that staff could do.

We are not going to judge our police on the number of different types of roles, but we are going to judge our police on their outcomes, which is why we are setting targets, which is why we are driving productivity and why we are focussed on tackling crime, not on arbitrary numbers as we are. I will give way. Yeah, OK.

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Thank you. First of all, for for the report coming forward, I think the figure that was mentioned by the figure that was mentioned by the Minister was 1.2 billion for and take on terrorism and anti-terrorism role, extra money coming in. Obviously we in Northern Ireland have a particular critical role when it comes to addressing role when it comes to addressing the issue of of terrorism. It's still active in a minor way but still active in a minor way but still active in Northern Ireland.

And because we also have a border which we have to patrol, address the issues of, of immigration, issues of, of theft, of farm agriculture, machinery and all those things come into the picture within the Barnett. Consequential. Can I ask the Minister, will extra

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money therefore be coming to the PSNI in Northern Ireland to help us? Thank you so much. Sorry. Well, of course policing in

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Well, of course policing in itself is devolved, but the terrorism risk involves working terrorism risk involves working across the whole of the United Kingdom. And the Security Minister, my hon. Friend will be working very my hon. Friend will be working very closely to make sure we are working across all the four parts of this United Kingdom to make sure we're United Kingdom to make sure we're offering the support, and we need to be.

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For the policing Minister. Moving on, she will know West Mercia Police, Shropshire, Herefordshire, Worcestershire, a Herefordshire, Worcestershire, a very good force in in many ways. But is she aware that West Mercia, But is she aware that West Mercia, which will impact the Wrekin constituency, is about to see the constituency, is about to see the first fall in police numbers in over a decade and likely to see over a decade and likely to see approximately 20 front line police officers removed as a result of what the local police and crime

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commissioner calls a shortfall in government funding. Minister to repeat, every force

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Minister to repeat, every force in the country has had an increase in their funding this year, and we in their funding this year, and we are making sure we have the right funding to support our objectives. funding to support our objectives. What I would say, again on police officer numbers is what we saw under the last government was a reduction of 20,000 police officers and then a rush to recruit 20,000 police officers. The result of that recruitment was, for example, in the last two years of the conservative government, a 60% rise in retail crime.

The outcomes did not follow that arbitrary focus on numbers. We are interested in police outcomes. We are interested in driving down crime and preventing crime. But we also believe that we should give our chiefs the flexibility within their local workforce to understand what roles they need. Police staff are exceptionally important in many different roles. The PC, the number of PCSOs under the last government halved. It wasn't even government policy. It just happened because because they didn't have a proper workforce plan, they didn't think about these things.

And then in the latter years, they didn't allow flexibility for local officers. We believe that chiefs can make the right decisions about their workforce locally, and we will be establishing a workforce plan nationally for the first time that the Conservatives failed to do, to make sure we have the right resources in the right places at the right time. Gosh. All right.

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I'm grateful to the police Minister and my constituency Labour for giving way. She references the for giving way. She references the different kinds of people working in the police workforce and how police chiefs should have flexibility. But in the last year, flexibility. But in the last year, not only have police officer numbers fallen by 1300, but police staff numbers have fallen as well. By 529 PCSOs have fallen in the last year by 204 special constables, 514 and even volunteers have fallen to every single number has fallen.

Is she proud of that Minister?

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Knife murders have fallen by 27%. Knife crime has fallen by 8%. That Knife crime has fallen by 8%. That is nearly 4500 fewer knife offences is nearly 4500 fewer knife offences in the last year than the previous year. We are focussed on outcomes, and the right hon. Gentleman will know that proper police reform involves looking at the staff, involves looking at the staff, looking at the workforce, also looking at new technology. He knows and is a big fan of live facial recognition, as are as are we, and we are taking out of the system efficiencies to the tune of £350 million during this Parliament, just in efficiencies where money was being wasted under the previous government that we will strip out of the system, we will be focussed through the new reforms on outcomes and on delivering local police force that will tackle the epidemic of everyday crime, and a national police service that will tackle the

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complex crime. Esther McVey. Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. And first, can I apologise that I can't stay till the very end of this because I have a debate in Westminster Hall, but I did need to ask the Minister a question. The Minister talks about question. The Minister talks about outcomes, so will she. As shocked as I am that the Labour Cheshire as I am that the Labour Cheshire Police Crime Commissioner has already spent 200,000 on two listening exercises, is expected to spend another 400,000 on listening exercises when really they're putting up the precept precept by 6.7%.

The police force will have to make redundancies. Doesn't she agree with me that that money shouldn't be going on vanity projects, but on front line policing.

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I would suggest that perhaps the previous government would have would have benefited from listening would have benefited from listening to the public. And there is no harm in listening to the public. Indeed, it is our role as elected it is our role as elected representatives to do so. One of the challenges that we are grappling with through the White grappling with through the White Paper reform is how do we make sure there is accountability at the hyper local and at the national hyper local and at the national level to make sure we do listen to our constituents and make sure we are targeting the crimes that they care about.



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I noticed today the same Labour, Police and Crime commissioner has Police and Crime commissioner has put an advert up for 45,000 to £55,000 for a senior public relations officer for himself and relations officer for himself and other vanity projects. Surely that money should be spent on psos and

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money should be spent on psos and himself? Yeah. Well done. I don't know if the right hon. Lady has anybody in her team that Lady has anybody in her team that helps her with communications. Perhaps she does. I don't know nobody. No, I suspect I suspect she does have somebody who helps with communications and most hon. Members in this place do. And I think ensuring the public know what is happening is also a good thing. The hon.

Lady will know that we have said several times in this place as well, that we are abolishing the role of Police and Crime Commissioner, not in any way because of the work that they have done. They have done a lot of brilliant work, and I have some fantastic colleagues that I will continue working with until 2028.

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Application clarification. Congratulations. If the Minister said.

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If the Minister said. That nearly 650,000. Forgive me, Minister. Are you taking the intervention or not? I miss that. Well, continue. Minister.

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Minister. Continue. I suggest maybe we carry on this conversation over a cup of coffee conversation over a cup of coffee another time, and we are also investing £1.4 billion into the wider policing system to continue wider policing system to continue our progress towards adopting the modern, cutting edge technologies that will better enable the police to perform their most critical function keeping the public safe. The government is supporting the police in their ongoing fight against knife crime by maintaining funding for serious violence reduction activity in every force area, alongside £28 million through our County Lines programme to disrupt organised crime and protect vulnerable and exploited children.

And £119 million will go towards our ambitious programme of police reform, which will establish a new national centre to support AI across policing, enable the national rollout of live facial recognition and strengthen how data is used to support operational

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policing. The Policing Minister, she's being very generous, as she always is, and I hope she'll be generous in her reply as well. On AI, on AI, in her reply as well. On AI, on AI, I mean, obviously AI is already playing a part in policing, and I would hope that everybody that would hope that everybody that wants to see crime reduced would support it, but it support with caveats. As far as I'm concerned, caveats. As far as I'm concerned, there does need to be legislative oversight that it is regulated and not abused.

So when will the government be coming forward with that legislation which her her, which the Home Secretary has mentioned is going to come forward? And just very briefly on police reform, does she recognise that West Mercia oversees a rural and semi-rural area and Ed Davey reconfiguration? Restructuring should recognise the unique challenges of rural police forces, as opposed to, let's say, the

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neighbouring force of West Midlands. Can I thank the Right Honourable, the hon. Gentleman, for those two the hon. Gentleman, for those two points that he asked in one question on AI? He's absolutely question on AI? He's absolutely right. We need to make sure and I hope this is now the policy of the opposition. It wasn't when they were in government that there should be a legal, there should be a understanding of what AI is used a understanding of what AI is used for and what it isn't.

On the live facial recognition side, which is important. And we are expanding. We are consulting at the moment on how that is used and how it is not on AI. There is a huge amount of work going on in different police forces, and most areas have ethics committees. They have structures where they do, where they do. Consider and talk about the use of of AI. There are there are certain rules around never, for example, using AI to make a decision or to have a judgement, but just to give information is is very important.

And we know with the recent case in terms of the West Midlands, how easy it is to to to end up making a mistake and we want to avoid that. And on the funding point, we are baking into our funding, sorry reform point, we are baking into the reform structures that, at the hyper local level, everybody in their ward will have a named contact officer, that there will be targets on 999 response times, on 999 answering call times, and on responding to non-urgent calls.

I understand and I hear and I've I've had that message from several MPs that the that rural areas are concerned that where there's a larger force that will mean they get less resources. That is not the intention whatsoever. Indeed, quite the opposite. By having instead of 43 forces making 43 decisions with 86 decision makers and spending money in 43 different ways, we will make savings. That will mean that we can put more money into frontline policing. In his

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constituency. I'm extremely grateful to the Minister and I'm reassured to hear those words. Except I'm not hearing those words. Except I'm not hearing how, because we've all seen that when you move to a larger force, the, the, the big cities, the big metropolitan areas have a political and a kind of almost a gravity way of pulling resources to them. So it needs something structural. So perhaps the Minister may not have perhaps the Minister may not have an answer today, but will she consider looking at ways of backing up that hope to turn it into something on which rural communities in my constituency can actually rely?

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Yes, as my hon. Friend has just said, as as two people from cities, we we feel the same way quite often that we, we don't always get the resources that we're also pushing resources that we're also pushing for. Everybody will be, of course, interested to ensure in this place that their constituents get the that their constituents get the funding that they need. We have set up. Sorry. Forgive me. We are about to set up a independent review into what the structures will be going forward.

He can also read the white paper that sets out some of these ideas, but the independent review will be completed by the summer, and that will set out how many forces, how they will work and how they will operate. And I think, I think I'm going to make a little bit of progress if that is OK. So policing reform, I just want to touch on that a little bit more. Last month, as I said, we released the white paper setting out how we'll create a policing system fit for the future.

Taken together, our plans amount to the biggest reforms for almost 200 years. They will see improvements to police governance, forced mergers to unlock greater efficiencies and the creation of a national police service capable of fighting sophisticated criminals at a national level. These reforms are overdue and we know that they will not be easy, but we also know that they are necessary. Our overarching aim is clear to establish a new policing model in which local forces protect their communities and national police protecting protect us all.

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Thank you, Madam Speaker. The I thank the Minister for giving way. One of the challenges that we've One of the challenges that we've always had in Staffordshire is that because of a manufacturing site in because of a manufacturing site in Tamworth, and also because of the politics of Stoke on Trent, we've often had to deal with very complex often had to deal with very complex national issues around far right activism and his activism. With the activism and his activism.

With the increasing police forces and with the national responsibilities. How is the Minister going to make sure that some of those local specialisms that we've built up in Staffordshire continue to be deployable in those places, because sometimes our neighbourhood policing is actually the first barrier to dealing with some of the escalating problems further down the line. It's how we make. So is she able to say how that knowledge transfer will carry on? Yeah.

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Can I thank my hon. Friend for that question. And several people have raised similar concerns. I think my answer would be that by creating a much simpler system than we actually have now, that movement we actually have now, that movement of information and resources and people and the specialisms where they exist will be easier to maintain, because at the moment we have lots of different national have lots of different national bodies that we will be bringing together. We have the Roku's, the regional organised crime units that don't have a legislative basis and and are funded in a sort of range of different, slightly peculiar ways.

We have specialist units sitting in different forces across the country looking at different things, whether that's modern slavery or, you know, funding helicopters. We have these peculiar system that doesn't make much sense. And by streamlining it. So we have a national service, regional service and local local police areas, we can enable that flow of information and specialism to be, I think, clearer. But I understand his point and it's been raised by by several people and we will by several people and we will

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certainly be very mindful of it. This is being extremely generous. I met with the Chief Constable of Humberside last week. As the Humberside last week. As the Minister will know, it's the leading force in the country. It's got the highest results, so local people are concerned about a reorganisation which could be expensive, that could draw resources away from a successful resources away from a successful police system. How will the preparation for these changes preparation for these changes engage with the Chief Constable in Humberside and others who are helping set very high standards now,

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and which we don't want to see diminished in future? I think he points to a challenge,

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I think he points to a challenge, which is that some police forces perform brilliantly, others perform perform brilliantly, others perform less well. In the main, there's only one force in engage at the moment, but in the main forces will be good at certain things, bad at be good at certain things, bad at others and it will vary across the country. Our aim is to make sure we country. Our aim is to make sure we have brilliance everywhere and we are working very closely with police chiefs.

I think this is the first time we have had a reform programme that has not had the criticism that perhaps you might expect from different aspects of policing. We we almost to the point where we sort of sat back and kind of wondered, you know, maybe have we got this wrong? Everybody, everybody is agreeing with us. It is really powerful to sit with police chiefs, and it is really powerful to sit with officers who are rank and file, as I did last week, and hear the challenges that they face and the solutions that they have.

And we are, we are, we are suggesting the same solutions. And of course, it will be a difficult journey. No reform programme isn't, but we we are making sure we're engaging with policing on every step of the way. I am going to make some progress, I'm afraid. I know that many hon. Members have talked about the funding formula, and I know that in opposition, indeed, I called on the previous government to review the funding formula regularly, and we will, of course, as part of this reform journey, have to reform the funding formula because we are changing the structure.

So I can reassure members that we will do that. This year's settlement represents a first step in our reform journey. We've streamlined the way we distribute funding and put flexibility back into the hands of police chiefs, allowing them to focus on the priorities of their communities and of this government. Madam Deputy Speaker, one of those priorities has to be neighbourhood policing, as it is the bedrock of the British policing model. A central aim of this government's agenda has been to restore neighbourhood policing after it was catastrophically eroded in the years before the general election.

Our efforts are already having an impact, with nearly 2400 more neighbourhood officers already in our communities and the Neighbourhood Policing Guarantee delivering named contactable officers in every area. But we must and will go further. And through this settlement we will build on the progress. So far, having listened to police feedback from police chiefs and PCCs and Select Committees and HMRC and others, we are removing arbitrary headcount targets for overall officer numbers. We believe success should be judged not just by numbers, but by how they deliver the outcomes that the public want to see.

Our focus is on putting police where they can make the most difference, which often is within our communities. Tackling crime and anti-social behaviour that blights cities, towns and villages. Therefore, we are ring fencing £363 million of funding to get 1750 more police officers and PCSOs into neighbourhood policing roles in the next year. I will carry on making some progress, I'm afraid through the continued growth in neighbourhood policing, we will restore the vital link between police forces and the communities they serve.

Madam Deputy Speaker, we also believe there's significant potential to revolutionise police efficiency and productivity. We are continuing to work with forces through the efficiency programme towards the target. I spoke of earlier £354 million of cash savings by the end of this Parliament, as set out in our White Paper. There are further avenues we must explore to bring policing into the modern age and deliver better value. Meanwhile, new structures will remove duplication and the National Police Service will allow us to deal with the biggest threats on the national level.

This government believes in doing things right once, not in 43 different ways. Not a single penny of taxable money should be wasted by investing in new technology, taking away administrative burdens and moving officers out from desks and into our communities, we move closer to that goal. Madam Deputy Speaker, in 20 2627, we are continuing to invest in the police, supporting them with a record level of cash funding to do what they do best, keep us all safe. We know that it is the first duty of government and that it requires a highly effective.

I will not on this occasion, and it requires a highly effective and efficient police service, a service that is equipped for the crime fighting challenges of now and also prepared for the future. Ultimately, the test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, and not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with them. These are not my words, but are Robert Peel's principles of policing laid out almost 200 years ago, and yet they are just as relevant today.

We believe that policing should be about keeping people safe. Of course, the visible presence of police officers on our streets is vital, and this settlement aims to get officers away from desks and back on the front line. Equally, we cannot give away one more time.

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Esther McVey I thank the Minister for giving way. It's a most generous offer, a point that most generous offer, a point that has been raised by my Chief Constable is about Labour's new Sentencing Bill, and criminals won't be sentenced for A levels less than 12 months, which says they will now be man marking criminals on the street. And it criminals on the street. And it will cost them approximately 1.6 million a year to do that. So can the Minister explain how she plans

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to address that issue in costs and in man hours? Minister Joe Morris.

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Minister Joe Morris. Well, there's very significant investment going into probation alongside those reforms. And of alongside those reforms. And of course, as she would expect, myself and colleagues in the Home Office are working very closely with the are working very closely with the Ministry of Justice to make sure we are equipped to respond to any changes. And of course, it is changes. And of course, it is absolutely true that it is often right for people to have non-prison sentences, whether that is tagging or other.

Other punishments. And I think there is some really innovative work that we can do on that going forward. But we are having regular meetings with our police colleagues to make sure we are ready for the changes. Equally, we cannot forget the staff are essential to our policing system like the PCSOs working with vulnerable individuals, victim support staff, helping people through the aftermath of crimes, or tech experts working in police HQ to track a stolen phone. This settlement recognises this and puts power back in the hands of local forces, allowing them to prioritise the right mix of skills for a modern workforce.

We are giving them the resources up to £18.4 billion to invest in this workforce and supply them with the tools and powers they need to do their jobs. Madam Deputy Speaker, we know that to people across England and Wales, what matters most is not what we say but what we do. We are backing up our words with action, restoring neighbourhood policing, driving down harmful threats and equipping forces for the challenges of modern crime fighting. But we will not stop there. We will maintain momentum this year and beyond, reforming policing and striving to give law abiding citizens the safety and security they deserve.

This settlement will aid us in delivering these aims and I commend it to the House.
13:19
Chris Philp Portrait Rt Hon Chris Philp MP (Croydon South, Conservative)
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The question is, as. On the Order Paper, and I call the Shadow Secretary of State Chris Philp. Secretary of State Chris Philp. >> Thank you very much indeed, Madam Deputy Speaker. Let me. Go on.

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Madam Deputy Speaker. Let me. Go on. This would be good. Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I just wanted to, before Speaker. I just wanted to, before the Minister got into his speech in 2010, the number of police officers in Staffordshire was around 1000. That has only just got back to that figure this year. We have never had anything but a conservative police and crime commissioner, and we've only ever had a conservative council and a conservative government. Is he able to tell me who I should hold accountable for that decimation of neighbourhood policing under the last government?

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Well, he raises the last government. The last government left office with record ever left office with record ever numbers of police in March. In March 2024, when the last when the last recruitment intake took place, last recruitment intake took place, there were 149,769 officers by there were 149,769 officers by headcount, the highest in history, and that was 3000 higher than in 2010. And since the shadow Minister asked about outcomes, according to the Crime Survey of England and Wales, overall crime fell during the time of the last government by about 50%.

Now I was about to say before I perhaps foolishly, goodness me, this this is getting

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very congested already, but I can't possibly resist his increasing. Extremely grateful to my right hon. Friend for giving way. He's hon. Friend for giving way. He's been most generous and he's barely begun. But I must have misheard because I've listened to so many speeches on the topic of law and order from the party opposite, and he must have misspoken. He he must have misspoken. He suggested that not only was there a record number of police officers left by the last conservative government, but crime overall fell government, but crime overall fell by 50%.

Have these words ever been issued by the Ministers, or do they try to mislead the public at every opportunity? If I may.

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Order, order, order! You want to ahead. Of course, I was saying no individual, but inadvertently, of

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individual, but inadvertently, of course, in any minister's case. By language. Chris Philp.

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Well, no, it is true that members opposite forget to mention the record police numbers in March the record police numbers in March 2024, or the reduction in crime that was actually more than 50% over the period. Now look, I will over the period. Now look, I will happily give way quite a lot, but I haven't even started and I've given away a couple of times already, and I was just going to start by echoing the police minister's tribute to police officers up and down the country, who every day put themselves in the line of danger.

I've attended the annual police memorial service and seen and met with the families of officers who have tragically lost their lives while keeping us safe, and they should remain, I think, at the front of our minds during this afternoon's debate. Now, Madam Deputy Speaker, the police Minister threw around some big numbers earlier about the increase in police funding that has been announced. But the increase for frontline police forces, the increase being given to police and crime commissioners, amounting to 4.5%, is not enough to meet the funding pressures and the cost pressures which they face.

I spoke earlier today to police and Crime Commissioner Roger Hirst of Essex, who is, as she knows, the finance lead for the Association of Police and Crime Commissioners, and Roger Hirst told me that in his assessment this funding settlement is about £100 million short of the cost pressures police forces will face, meaning they will have to find cuts. And it's not just Roger. The National Police Chiefs Council, the body that represents chief constables, said on the 28th of January and I quote, many forces are planning service reductions with consequences for officer numbers, staff numbers and resilience.

In other words, both police and crime commissioners and the National Police Chiefs Council say this funding settlement is inadequate to maintain police resources. And it's not just them. The Labour, Police and crime commissioner of Avon and Somerset has just had to cancel the recruitment of 70 new officers because of, in her words, lower than expected government funding. And the Cambridgeshire Police and Crime Commissioner says the settlement falls short of what is required. The chief constable of Cleveland says they face a £4 million funding gap under this settlement.

The Essex Police and Crime Commissioner says the government settlement is insufficient to cover rising costs. As I said a moment ago, and Manchester, Greater Manchester Police say they face a £32 million funding gap. So in summary, Madam Deputy Speaker this settlement is not enough to enable police forces up and down the country to maintain their level of service. They're going to shrink and their services will be diminished. Now, she mentioned the money being provided for the Neighbourhood Policing Officers 1750.

Well, in fact, she didn't mention the amount of money being provided by the government, which is £50 million for that purpose. Now, if you divide the one number by the other, you get to £29,000 per officer. And as the National Police Chiefs Council have pointed out, the cost of an officer is on average £68,000. So the government is only funding 42% of the cost, leaving the other 58% completely unfunded. She also forgot to mention in her speech that the government is completely cancelling the funding for anti-social behaviour hotspot patrolling, something introduced by the last government, which frankly, should have been continued.

And when it comes to the way the money is distributed, it remains the case. The funding formula is deeply unfair. Change is long overdue. But I would ask the Minister to urgently bring forward changes to the funding formula to make it fairer. The Metropolitan Police receives by by far the highest funding in the country, even accounting for the National Capital City grant and CT funding. If you adjust for that, they receive £439 per head. But the lowest funded forces, such as Dorset, £255 a head.

Essex 236. Cambridgeshire 237 or Wiltshire just £235 per head. They are inadequately funded and the funding formula urgently needs updating. And I ask the police Minister or her colleague when she sums up to address that point. Now, Madam Deputy Speaker, the consequence of this inadequate funding settlement is just the same as the consequence of last year's inadequate funding settlement. When my shadow ministerial colleague, the Member for Stockton South, stood at this despatch box and he warned the minister's predecessor that the funding settlement would lead to reductions in police numbers, he warned very clearly, and we now know that that has come to pass because the most recent figures, just published a few weeks ago, show that in the year to September 2025, so a year entirely when Labour were in government, the number of police officers fell by 1318 numbers being cut under this Labour government.

Now they say they want to get staff. Let me just finish the point, then I'll give way. They say they want to hire staff instead to do jobs behind desks, but the number of police staff fell as well by 529. They talk about PCSOs. Well, the number of PCSOs fell by 204, special constables down by 514. Police volunteers down by 429. Under this Labour government, that is a reduction in police workforce of 3000 in just one year under this Labour government.

They are not funding the police properly and they should be ashamed of themselves. Yes.

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I'm grateful to my right hon. Friend for giving way. It's right there are a huge amount of police there are a huge amount of police staff that are never seen support staff, admin staff, call centre staff, whatever they might be, and they play an important part in they play an important part in delivering the police services to all of our communities. But is it all of our communities. But is it not the case that visibility in policing is needed? And it is only policing is needed? And it is only police officers who are warranted to make arrests when crime is committed? So for all the wonderful people working in the back office of all of our police forces, we still need police officers in the communities tackling the anti-social behaviour that he references, turning up at least occasionally at the parish council, where the local police officer still has a reference in the agenda and visibility absolutely critical around the fear of crime and a warrant with a police officer.

Absolutely critical in enforcing the law and making arrests.

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Yes. He's absolutely right. Only uniformed officers or warrant uniformed officers or warrant officers can make arrests. And that is why the fall in police numbers under this Labour government is under this Labour government is showing just in one second is is so shocking. Now they talk about neighbourhood officers specifically, but that of course ignores things but that of course ignores things like crime investigation. It ignores things like 999 response. It ignores specialist officers who It ignores specialist officers who investigate, for example, sexual offences.

It focuses on only one

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part of policing when total numbers are falling. Of course. Well, gentlemen, welcome the

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Well, gentlemen, welcome the fact that there are 2400 more police in our neighbourhoods now than there were at the start of this government. But the point.

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But the point. Is, she's cut other areas to do that. She's cut nine, nine nine response. She's cut crime investigations. She can use smoke and mirrors by focusing on only one and mirrors by focusing on only one part of the police world. The fact is, total police numbers are down, police staff are down, PCSOs are down, specials are down and police volunteers are down. All under this Labour government. Now I think his

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colleague from Harlow got there first, so I probably ought to give way there first. I thank the. Shadow Secretary.

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Shadow Secretary. Of State for giving way, and I do thank him for lobbying on behalf of Essex to get more funding, because clearly I want more funding because clearly I want more funding for Essex as much as he does. I would just quote and I also declare an interest. I've stood against an interest. I've stood against Roger in two elections, but I've got a lot of time for the work he does as a police and crime commissioner. I really want to make that clear.

He says in his own website, however, that he welcomes another 69 new recruits into Essex Police, making it the force bigger and stronger than it has ever been before, which doesn't quite fit with what the shadow of state said earlier.

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Well, Roger Hirst, in common with many police and crime commissioners, has done a valiant commissioners, has done a valiant job in the face of the inadequate funding. But as he said himself, and I quote Roger verbatim, the government settlement is insufficient to cover rising costs. That is what Roger himself has said. Now let's look at let's look at outcomes, which the police Minister outcomes, which the police Minister mentioned. And it is a matter of deep concern, Madam Deputy Speaker, that under this Labour government, shoplifting has gone up by 10% to record ever levels.

Robbery from business premises is up by 66% in the last year. Anti-social behaviour has gone up. Rape has gone up by 7% under this government, and sexual assault and sexual offences have gone up by 8%. Of

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course. When he says that rape has gone up, does he mean that the recorded up, does he mean that the recorded crime of rape has gone up? And does he recognise that actually everybody in this House should celebrate when women feel more

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comfortable to come forward to the police? Well, that isn't what she was saying. When the rape figures were going up under the last government. Once is enough and the fact that rape reported rapes are going up to the extent that to the extent that reflects increased levels of

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offending, that would be a serious, serious concern. Go on. What is actually going up is

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What is actually going up is rape charging. And actually, I just just to make the record straight, I never, ever criticised increased reporting of rape. What I criticised was the decimation under criticised was the decimation under his government of rape, charging that led to the worst record in history.

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history. Well, she will she will know that the change in the rape charge rate followed the disclosure rule changes after the Liam Allen case back in about 2017, and the last government set up Operation Soteria, and a rape whole rape taskforce designed to increase the rape charging rates. And indeed they were increasing prior to the last election. And I very much hope that this government is continuing the work of Operation Soteria that was started by the last government. Now, in relation to the police reforms the police Minister referred to, while there are some functions like counter-terrorism and fighting serious organised crime, that may well be better provided on a national basis, we will certainly be opposing on this side of the House, the creation of approximately ten regional mega forces that will see county forces essentially abolished, merged into enormous entities that are very far removed from the communities they serve, which will inevitably see resources drawn away from towns and villages towards large cities.

And there is no evidence that large forces are either more efficient or better performing. In fact, the two arguably worst performing forces in the country, the Met and West Midlands, are also the largest forces in the country, and the history of Police Scotland, where they merged eight police forces, eight police forces into one has not been a particularly happy episode, and is certainly not a good case study for what is being proposed, so I would ask the Minister to think again about the creation of these mega forces when the examples of the West Midlands, the Met and Police Scotland indicate that large police forces do not perform well.

Now there is one area Madam Deputy Speaker, where I will agree with the Minister and indeed more than agree with her, actively support what she is trying to do and that is the use of technology in catching criminals, and in particular the use of live facial recognition, which she and I have both seen being used very effectively in Croydon town centre and indeed across London, where in the last year 963 arrests have occurred as a result of using live facial recognition of criminals who would not otherwise have been caught, including a man wanted for a double rape dating back eight years who would not have been caught, but for the use of live facial recognition.

So I'd be interested to hear her plans for rolling this technology out across the country, accelerating its use dramatically. And I'd also be interested in her assurance that the consultation she's doing on the use of this technology is going to be carefully calibrated, because there is a risk that the sort of people on the fringes, left and right, who don't like this technology will try and lobby her and will try and persuade her to introduce all kinds of rules and regulations and red tape.

And if she gives in to their requests, she may end up inadvertently creating a sort of very bureaucratic system that in practice is very difficult to the police for the police to operate. So I would urge her to think about the mainstream, the mainstream majority who strongly support this technology. Certainly in Croydon, the public support this technology, understanding that it catches criminals and understanding that if you're not on the watch list, your image is immediately and automatically deleted. And I just ask her to make sure that if she does change the rules, she does it in a way that is quite light touch, and it doesn't end up potentially strangling what could be one of the most promising and effective crime fighting technologies this country has seen for many, many decades.

And I really hope that is the approach that she plans to take one

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last time. I'm grateful to my right hon. Friend, and he will have noted, as I did, that the police Minister I did, that the police Minister failed to answer the how. She said she wished to make sure that these creation of these massive new creation of these massive new police organisations didn't lead to policing becoming more distant and remote and hard to influence, not remote and hard to influence, not least for rural communities. But she couldn't tell us how it will be done.

Does he share my concern that done. Does he share my concern that we will end up with a larger, more bureaucratic system which is remote from ordinary people? And for

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people in rural East Yorkshire in particular, they're going to feel far away from decision making. I think my right hon. Friend

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I think my right hon. Friend puts it brilliantly. He has articulated exactly why the creation of regional mega forces is creation of regional mega forces is likely to be a backwards step. Madam Deputy Speaker, this I'm done Madam Deputy Speaker, this I'm done on. He may he may fight. He may find that a matter of considerable relief in Madam Deputy Speaker. In conclusion, sometimes, in conclusion, sometimes, in conclusion, are the most popular words I utter in the speech. In conclusion.

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This way, before. Concluding one. This is the last time.

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time. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, but at a time of great pressure on police budgets and my Cheshire Police force, having to make redundancies was my right hon. redundancies was my right hon. Friend. As concerned as I was that the Minister felt that the Labour Police Crime Commissioner could Police Crime Commissioner could spend hundreds of thousands of pounds on vanity projects and

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accepting it rather than condemning it, and that money should go on front line policing. Well, my hon. Friend is

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Well, my hon. Friend is absolutely right, and it was disappointing. The police Minister did not substantively respond. She did not substantively respond. She is quite right, spending money on loads of communications officers instead of police officers to catch criminals is a misallocation of resources, and my right hon. Friend is right to call it out, I will I will conclude here, Madam Deputy will conclude here, Madam Deputy Speaker, by saying that this police funding settlement is not adequate to meet funding pressures. It will lead to continued reductions in police numbers across England and Wales, which will leave our

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constituents and our countries less safe. Andy McDonald. Thank you.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy. Speaker. And I do thank the Ministers for

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And I do thank the Ministers for her remarks and she'll find very considerable support for the broad thrust of what she's saying, thrust of what she's saying, especially around the streamlining and the new policing models. And I know she's thinking very seriously know she's thinking very seriously about how to get that best return
13:37
Andy McDonald Portrait Andy McDonald MP (Middlesbrough and Thornaby East, Labour)
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on that reorganisation in terms of serious organised crime being alive to those regional specialisms and expertise already exist. So I do thank her for that and for her thank her for that and for her commitment to the better funding for our police force after the disastrous period of austerity disastrous period of austerity under the Conservatives. I do want under the Conservatives. I do want to put some challenges to my colleague because there are some local concerns I have. But Madam Deputy Speaker, after hearing from the shadow Minister about his remarks about police numbers, I've just got to say to him, in all candour, the reduction of 20,000 police officers in the name of austerity was one of the most deeply reckless and stupid things a government could ever do.

And I'd just like the Minister, the shadow Minister opposite, to come to the Dispatch Box and apologise for that gross dereliction of duty. I mean, the hon. Member chunters and laughs from a sedentary position. I will in a minute. But if he would like to apologise to the country for the damage that caused, because I can tell him that the removing so many officers at a stroke, removing so many officers at a stroke, had a devastating impact.

And and looking at those raw numbers, you did it. The hon. Member chunters the he

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fails to comprehend. He fails to comprehend. I'll happily do so. Talking about events of 14 years

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Talking about events of 14 years ago when that government were fixing the financial mess Gordon Brown left behind. I would remind him the last government left office with record ever police numbers, and I suggest he reserves his ire for the falling police numbers that

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for the falling police numbers that are happening today under this Labour government. Mr Speaker the penny hasn't

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Mr Speaker the penny hasn't dropped with the the the spokesperson opposite not to understand for one minute how that translated in our communities. That's the issue because you simply did not take into consideration the loss of expertise. You cannot replace those with recruits

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overnight. It was the most stupid thing one could do. I'll happily give way. Thank you very much, Madam

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Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. The hon. Gentleman came right onto my point at the end there. That was the devastating there. That was the devastating thing, ripping the experience out of our police force and then dressing up new recruits as somehow a replacement for that led to higher crime in my constituency. And I know it led to higher crime

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And I know it led to higher crime in his constituency. My hon. Friend makes an absolutely pertinent point. These are the the lived experiences of our constituents. That's the that's the consequences that they had to to live with. And it said from the benches opposite, it's because of the the financial situation they were left in, because austerity was a political choice. And the, the party opposite deliberately ploughed this furrow with disastrous consequences. And they should have the, the, they should have the humility to get up and acknowledge the error that they made crack on.

Well.

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Gentlemen, I've never heard someone so passionately misinformed in my life. They left a massive in my life. They left a massive overspend, massive gaping overspend, the national debt. He. In other speeches, he'll mention the speeches, he'll mention the national debt going up under the Conservatives. We brought it down every year and fought and reduced every year and fought and reduced crime as well. Left having recovered the country record levels recovered the country record levels of police officers and a 50% cut in crime.

And he puts on this faux outrage, the lived reality for his communities and mine was an improved service and a balanced book.

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The hon. Gentleman should not consider it to be faux outrage. I lived in my constituency throughout that period and the damage that it caused, and yeah, we should acknowledge the damage that was acknowledge the damage that was caused. I am going to I'm going to be challenging my own government. I am not I'm trying to be objective am not I'm trying to be objective about these issues. Well, I will, but what's got to be understood in this place is that the consequences of those terrible decisions that were made, I do Madam Deputy Speaker now want to turn on because there are issues around the the Cleveland Police that I want to ask the Minister to address, because there are real issues, because there is there is more to be done around improvement in funding, which does remain uneven and where local areas continue to miss out.

So I hope to explore this in an objective and rational way with the front bench. So. But I do want to draw attention to the urgent and growing concerns of the Police and Crime Commissioner for Cleveland regarding funding of our local police force, and despite serving one of the most deprived and high crime areas in the country, Cleveland Police remains the force with the lowest number of officers compared to 2010, a reduction of some 12%, leaving the community more vulnerable and officers overstretched.

And with the greatest respect, the recent funding settlement does compound the problem. Cleveland received the smallest increase in the country, just 3.3%, which, after accounting for inflation and pay awards, leaves a real term shortfall of around 2.4 million. That's equivalent to 40 officers. Yet the government continues to expect this deficit to be met through local council tax. And I just respectfully suggest that's

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unreasonable with. Gentleman, he seemed to be I mean, he was practically spitting mean, he was practically spitting with anger when he talked about the conservative record of increased, increased police officers and and a halving of crime. But now he respectfully asked the Minister, and is it is it his understanding, as a direct result of the settlement that this Minister has brought to this House, that there will be a cut in service level in will be a cut in service level in his deprived communities and making them less safe? Is that his understanding? And if so, perhaps

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his passion could rise up a little. The difference between me and the hon. Gentleman opposite. I am the right hon. Gentleman. Opposite is that I'm capable of being is that I'm capable of being objective when facts are put in front of me, whereas he appears to be completely myopic and in total be completely myopic and in total denial about his own government's record of decimating our police record of decimating our police forces and seeing the consequences of it. So I am perfectly content with making proper representations to the government on the settlements that have been have been been devolved out.

It's perfectly reasonable proposition to put to shame he couldn't participate in a more sensible discussion. Well, Madam Deputy Speaker, with almost a third of our neighbourhoods in the top 10% most deprived nationally, local residents can't shoulder a £19 increase on band D property to restore staffing levels to safe levels. The police and Crime commissioner has written has written three times to the Minister seeking urgent clarity about how this settlement was calculated. Each time he hasn't had a response and I'll just ask the Minister to to reflect upon that and come back to me, our communities and their elected PCC deserve answers.

It's not just a matter of fairness, it's a matter of public safety. And without adequate funding, Cleveland Police can't meet the government's own objectives of reducing knife crime, tackling violence against women and girls, and maintaining effective neighbourhood policing. Madam Deputy Speaker, the people of Cleveland, their PCC and the officers on the front line have done everything asked of them exceeding recruitment targets, investing in neighbourhood policing and achieving crime reductions above the national average. And of course, I reflect upon their incredible efforts in the response to the riot on the 4th of August, 2024.

It was the most remarkable response of police and community banding together in the wake of the most violent attack upon our own community. And I, I must pay tribute to the incredible work that they did because they have never, ever had to deal with anything like that. And they did it with such incredible dedication and professionalism that we cannot ever be be thankful enough for them, to them, for their efforts. But again, I would just ask that the Minister does reflect upon this settlement, because I'm not convinced that this is reflective of their efforts and redistributing scarce resources to other forces with less need.

So I therefore urge the government to revisit the settlement urgently to properly resource Cleveland Police based on need, deprivation and demand, and not on population alone, and to provide the answers the PCC and our communities rightly deserve. Madam Deputy Speaker, our officers deserve the support they have earned and our residents deserve the safety and security that only

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properly funded policing can provide. Thank you. I call the Liberal Democrat

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I call the Liberal Democrat spokesperson Max Wilkinson. Thank you very much. Madam Deputy Speaker, I'd like to start by declaring an interest. My father by declaring an interest. My father in law is the police chaplain for North Yorkshire Police and my brother in law here. Here, indeed. brother in law here. Here, indeed. And my brother in law is an inspector in North Yorkshire Police too. And I then like to segue into too. And I then like to segue into thanking them, but also Inspector Steve Benbow, who leads the policing team in Cheltenham and does a terrific job in difficult circumstances.

And now the Liberal Democrats have long called for a return to proper community policing. Unfortunately, those numbers fell under the last conservative government and it is clear to me from speaking to people on in my constituency and elsewhere that people want a visible and trusted police presence in their community to focus on preventing and solving crimes. Far too many crimes at the moment, like shoplifting, bike theft, tool theft and so many more go unsolved and ordinary people pay the price. Police stations and front desks are disappearing at an alarming rate even under this government, leaving people with nowhere to go.

Now, Labour has promised the public 13,000 more police officers, but instead frontline officer numbers have fallen. By September last year, we had 1300 fewer officers than the year before, and in March 2025, the number of frontline police officers was down by more than 4300 compared to March 2024. That is why it's so important that these police reforms are got right, and we must see

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improvements in the numbers of frontline policing as soon as possible. I will. Thank the.

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Thank the. Member for giving way. I'd just like to highlight one case from Flamstead where David, who was a Flamstead where David, who was a talisman, a tradesman, had his van broken into ten times. On the 10th time he called the police while they were there, but it still took them many days to arrive. He's now decided to retire because it's too expensive to keep going. So, would expensive to keep going. So, would the hon. Member agree with me? This is why that frontline community service from the police is so

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important. Absolutely. My hon. Friend from Harpenden and Berkhamsted makes an important point. When we call the important point. When we call the police, we expect them to turn up. And I don't actually blame the police officers for not showing up if there's simply not enough of if there's simply not enough of them to do the job. That is a problem, which is a hangover from the last government, and this government must go faster to solve those problems. Now, if we don't give way, of course I give way to

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give way, of course I give way to Holderness. He may have inadvertently just suggested that somehow there was a reduction in police numbers. There were a record number of police officers, the highest.
13:49
Max Wilkinson Portrait Max Wilkinson MP (Cheltenham, Liberal Democrat)
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In the. Conservatives left power. And that number has been reduced front line and back office and PCSOs, each and every one of them reduced by that police Minister, that government opposite. And I know the hon. Gentleman who is always an honest and straightforward member of this House, wouldn't want to suggest that the Conservatives had left us with reduced numbers, when in fact they had increased exist.

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I thank the Member for his. I thank the hon. Member for his. I thank the hon. Member for his. I thank the Member for his interruption and also for the many communications that are coming from communications that are coming from the other side of the chamber. I have to say, when I when I hear the Labour Party and Conservative Party Labour Party and Conservative Party arguing about police numbers, I just think this is an excellent advert for voting for one of the advert for voting for one of the other parties.

Now, if the government is serious about restoring neighbourhood policing, it needs to step up, get this reform right and get more officers back onto our streets. Ministers have suggested numbers will be increasing. We do not doubt their good intentions, but they will ultimately be judged on results. We cautiously welcome the government's suggestion that it will assign a police team to every council ward level, but the devil will be in the detail. So I ask the Minister, and I'm happy to take an intervention if she would like to put me straight, because we've asked a written question will each ward, each council ward level have its own policing team, and will that be unique to that ward, or is it simply a signed en masse to several

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wards, one and the other? Each? So at the moment we have a a

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So at the moment we have a a situation where each area has its own named contact officer, we are going even further so that each going even further so that each ward will have its own name contact officer. So these are hyper local police are.

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police are. And based on the minister's answer, I can assume that that that Ward has its own police officer and Ward has its own police officer and that police officer has only one ward to deal with, have multiple wards. The hon. Member, the hon. Gentleman for Huntingdonshire, from a sedentary position, suggests that each police officer will have

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multiple wards. I wonder whether the Minister can clarify. Just to be clear, by by the end of this Parliament, there will be of this Parliament, there will be 13,000 extra neighbourhood police and the hon. Gentleman can divide and the hon. Gentleman can divide that by. Yes, please. Yes, please.

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that by. Yes, please. Yes, please. I assume the the Minister is making an intervention on Mr. Wilkinson. Not continuing. Please make the intervention and then the

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make the intervention and then the member can respond. PCSOs are police. Just to be clear, police officers, they're not warranted. But they are police. 13,000 extra police in our neighbourhoods. I'll have to do the maths in terms of dividing that between each ward. But there will

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be a name contact for Gloucester in each ward that people can. So before the front bench will have opportunities to respond at

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the end of the debate as well. Max Wilkinson I thank I thank the Minister for intervening. I

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will take the helpful intervention, I think, from the member from Huntingdon. I would.

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Concur with this point and what the Minister just said. I know that in Cambridgeshire, our neighbourhood officers, who are a neighbourhood officers, who are a little bit difficult to pin down, exactly how many and how big an area they cover, but each officer covers a vast area. I know that the officer, for example, who covers the town of St Ives, that's the whole town of which there are multiple wards, covers every area between St Ives and Ramsey, which includes several villages as well.

So it is for the birds to suggest that Cambridgeshire Constabulary are going to have enough named officers to cover every single ward

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that is represented currently by local government. Thank I thank the Member for his intervention and this is the point intervention and this is the point that I'm trying to draw out. The white paper is somewhat non-specific on this. It does say non-specific on this. It does say that there will be a named contact for each ward. The suggestion is that that might be just one person that that might be just one person or one police officer, a PCSo per ward with no other responsibilities for that police officer.

And and I don't believe that will be the case on the numbers that are being presented, which means that the white paper perhaps is somewhat misleading to people. I'm not suggesting Ministers for a moment would like to mislead the House, but the White paper does need clarification. Now, if communities are to have confidence that stretch local police teams can deal with local issues, particularly things like illegal e-scooters and illegal e-bikes. They need to have certainty that police teams are available and accessible. Failure to do so will lead to more people feeling unsafe and, sadly, more tragedies.

In my constituency of Cheltenham Madam Deputy Speaker, we recently suffered the loss of an 18 year old who was riding an illegally scooter in a road traffic collision, and in my constituency and in constituencies up and down the country, we frequently witnessed e-bikes travelling at speed, often on pavements and in pedestrian areas. Now, an on street presence of police would surely deter such activities and it must be fully funded. Visible policing would also help deter the onslaught of shoplifting. This nation is suffering.

We must also hope that the government's warm words on this will be backed by action. Now, Madam Deputy Speaker, we applaud the government for announcing the impending abolition of police and crime commissioners because we Liberal Democrats have long opposed the politicisation of policing, and we believe that money should be spent elsewhere. However, there is a risk that by splitting these powers from police and crime commissioners between directly elected mayors and the Home Secretary, that that will perpetuate the same problems with the politicisation of policing that we have experienced since 2012.

The government must make sure that in doing this, it allows crime and police boards made up of local councillors and representatives from relevant local groups, perhaps also including those mayors, to take over and ensure that police resources. The grant that we're talking about today are properly spent, so we do not see money being wasted instead. Now the Liberal Democrats are also calling for a police front desk in every community across the country. These would be in community halls like libraries, shopping centres and town halls.

Such an approach would allow people to report crimes or share information with the police face to face, in convenient and accessible locations.

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The hon. Gentleman could wait. I will. The hon. Gentleman. When I met the Chief Constable of Humberside the Chief Constable of Humberside last week, he talked about Bobby, which is actually an AI tool which is now able to meet 75, in fact is now able to meet 75, in fact pushing up towards 90% of queries. But does the hon. Gentleman But does the hon. Gentleman envisage these desks always being manned, or would a computer or AI

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manned, or would a computer or AI based system be suitable in his view? I thank the hon. Gentleman from Beverley and Holderness for his intervention. We would envisage these being staffed. Clearly people want to see police face to face. AI can have a role, although we all know that there is a cautionary tale from the West Midlands recently that we would, I think, like to put behind us. But AI surely has a role. But in the proposals that we are putting forward, you would have staffed desks in convenient community hubs.

Now, I ask the Ministers to consider that before going on to say, as members in this House will know, crime is not only focussed in cities and towns, and many members in the chamber today represent rural constituencies. Now, the NFU mutual estimated that there was a cost of rural crime in 2024, as high as £44.1 million. That is a shocking cost to our countryside. We must consider the impact on those who live in rural areas, and specifically farmers who are having a really difficult time at the moment.

Their mental health and mental wellbeing can be badly harmed by crime. A survey of 115 NFU mutual agents found that 92% believed rural crime was disrupting farming activities in their area, and 86% knew farmers who had been repeat victims of crime, leaving them feeling vulnerable in both their workplace and in their home. Rural communities have seen increasingly organised and damaging offences, yet only a small proportion of the police workforce is dedicated to tackling them. Rural crime is currently dealt with

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workforce. The honourable. Member give way. Of course I will. Yes.

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Of course I will. Yes. I'm really grateful. He's making an excellent point about about rural crime. And my concern is that as the boundaries for these police forces become greater, that the the resources then tend to go to the resources then tend to go to the urban areas. And we see this in East Devon, where Cranbrook has sucked in resources from villages sucked in resources from villages and towns that previously have had a police presence. Does he also recognise that this is this effect

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of pulling police into urban areas is taking place in other parts of the country? Thank you. I thank my hon. Friend from

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I thank my hon. Friend from Tiverton and Honiton for his intervention. It was timely and intervention. It was timely and when we discussed the structures of policing, clearly, if we are imposing wider boundaries, as the government intends to, what we need government intends to, what we need to make sure is that their pledges for local community policing areas are followed through on. And I are followed through on. And I think the answers that we had in the debate between very many people about five minutes ago, they tell us that the story is not yet told by the government in a way that will reassure my community or his.

Now, rural communities are increasingly concerned with the increase in crime that they are seeing, and they want to be reassured that Ministers are allocating the funding needed to tackle it. With the report that we are considering today, there are so few references to rural areas in the countryside, can we be reassured that rural crime will be tackled by a specific team in every police force? We're calling for a countryside copper guarantee, which would see properly resourced, dedicated rural crime teams or specialists embedded in every police force, and whether it will deliver.

And will the government pledge to deliver the equipment, specialist knowledge and communication tools needed to tackle these crimes effectively? Now the shadow Home secretary mentioned facial recognition technology. Now we accept that this technology has the potential to improve the outlook for members of the public and to make the police's job easier, too. But it does place our civil liberties at risk, and we must not be relaxed about that. In December 2025, the UK's data protection watchdog asked the Home Secretary sorry, asked the Home Office for urgent clarity over the racial bias of police facial recognition technology and official Home Office research has shown that the technology identifies the wrong person about 100 times more often for Asian and black people than it does for white people, and twice as often for women than men.

We seek reassurance as I will in a moment. We seek reassurances that this technology will not be used unless the data can be safely captured. And we seek assurance from Ministers that those in minority communities won't be misidentified and wrongly arrested. And we hope Ministers can reassure us that the data will be stored appropriately, and this will not result in the widespread retention of data relating to innocent people. So will the government consider statutory guidance on this technology, to ensure that each police force takes a common and

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safe approach, and I will take an Secretary. I'm very grateful to the Lib Dem

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I'm very grateful to the Lib Dem spokesman. Just on the two points he raised, I looked into those when I was police Minister on the first one about allegations of racial one about allegations of racial disproportionality. Those arose in about 2017 or 2018. The system has subsequently been updated significantly and was tested by the National Physical Laboratory about 2 or 3 years ago, and at the 2 or 3 years ago, and at the setting the police use it. There is now no racial disproportionality at all.

That is a historic problem that has now been fixed. On his second question about data retention, the way the system operates is that if a member of the public like he or I, who is not on the wanted list, I assume walk, walks, walks past the camera, then then our then our image is automatically and immediately

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deleted, which I hope addresses his concern about data retention. Matt. I thank the Shadow Home

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I thank the Shadow Home Secretary for addressing those two points. I can reassure him I'm not on the wanted list, but I can only on the wanted list, but I can only speak for myself. Now, in its useful clarification, I think I would like it from Ministers as would like it from Ministers as well, perhaps in the summing up later on, and I'm sure Ministers will be able to reassure me now. The Minister who sits behind beside the policing Minister there, will share my view that police must be better at tackling violence against women and girls.

I know she's done a huge amount of work on this now. Survivors of vawg and domestic abuse deserve to know that properly funded support services will be there. We must also be reassured that police have the training to enable them to address so-called honour based abuse. The government should look at introducing high quality perpetrator programmes in domestic abuse cases, with the aim of preventing further abuse, and for those victims already suffering, Ministers must make it easier for victims to come forward. They should consider rolling out a Home Office led national public awareness campaign that tackles myths around domestic abuse and violence against women and girls, which signposts victims to support services and promotes the role of the new Vawg taskforce.

And there is already some really good publicity going out, which we will have seen on our televisions. Survivors must always be able to safely report incidents to the police, although the complexities of these cases mean there are additional needs which must be addressed, so we seek reassurance that police forces will provide for anonymous reporting options and embedding vawg and domestic abuse specialists in every 999 operator assistance centres. There will be both important measures to help victims report incidents to the police.

Now these should bring together officers and specialists with the training, resources and capacity to effectively support survivors, including by working in partnership with Frontline Women's Services. So will the home. Will the Minister commit to establishing the specialist task forces in every police force? Finally, we ask whether, in considering this report, we are yet again looking at smoke and mirrors. It's the same whichever government it is in terms of funding, the the government's figures assume a maximum police precept rise in every local area, pushing part of the funding settlement discussion to local areas.

Shouldn't governments of all colours just be clearer about that in their communications?
14:03
Mary Kelly Foy Portrait Mary Kelly Foy MP (City of Durham, Labour)
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Mary Kelly Foy. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I think before Deputy Speaker, and I think before I make my remarks and and plea to the government, I must respond to the complete nonsense from the the shadow Minister and the opposite, the members opposite. The 14 years since 2010 saw catastrophic cuts to the police service, a rise in recorded crime, unmanageable police force, Budget deficits and the demise of neighbourhood policing and the near destruction of the probation service.

No part of the criminal justice system was spared from mismanagement, and it's incredible that the the penny still hasn't dropped, that when austerity is forced upon areas that antisocial behaviour and fragile communities are the outcome. So the benches opposite would excuse this government for not taking lectures from the party opposite. Now this debate is crucial as it's about how we fund the services that keep our communities safe and resilient. Safe communities are the foundation of economic growth and local prosperity.

Businesses invest where towns feel secure, families settle where neighbourhoods are stable. Regeneration succeeds when anti-social behaviour is tackled and police are visible and responsive. Public safety underpins economic renewal and long term confidence. Our Police and Crime Commissioner, Joy Allen, has raised serious and legitimate concerns about the structural pressures faced in Durham and Darlington. Under the current funding framework, those concerns are not about performance. Durham Constabulary is highly regarded and delivers daily for our communities. It's about capacity and sustainability.

In Durham, we have one of the lowest council tax bases in England and a very high proportion of band A properties, each £1 added to the police precept, therefore raises significantly less locally than it does in many other force areas. In practice, a 1% increase in the precept in County Durham generates £490,000, where in Surrey it generates approximately £1.7 million £1.7 million. At a time when we are rightly focussed on narrowing the north south divide, the funding framework risks reinforcing this.

North Road in Durham is a clear example of why sustained neighbourhood policing matters. It's one of the city's busiest corridors and at times has been a hotspot for shoplifting and anti-social behaviour, particularly drug and alcohol abuse, placing real pressure on local traders and a perception of fear for residents and visitors. In response, Durham Constabulary has worked with businesses to introduce shopwatch and a scheme, and it now holds regular regular meetings with retailers to share intelligence, Chris Ward action and improve visibility.

And that kind of partnership approach is starting to make a difference, but it relies on having the capacity and presence on the ground to sustain it. And County Durham also covers a large and diverse geographical area, with dispersed rural communities creating distinct policing pressures in terms of travel time, visibility and response. And a prime example of that is when yobs on e-bikes terrorise or villagers or football clubs and walkers. People feel scared, but police cannot reach them in time to take action.

A single national framework doesn't therefore produce equal outcomes. The same policy decision yields very different resources, and over time that gap compounds. But between 2010 and 2020, under the conservative government, Durham Constabulary lost 408 officers, around 20% of its workforce and officer numbers have still not returned to 2020 to 2010 levels. That's meant sustained pressure on neighbourhood teams and frontline capacity across that wide geography. For three consecutive years, local consultation has shown that residents are willing to invest more where it protects visible neighbourhood policing and capacity.

The issue is not willingness, it's the ability when funding depends heavily on council tax capacity, areas with lower property values or structurally constrained, regardless of need or performance. Equal percentage increases in grant do not offset unequal precept yield. So if we want to see places like Durham flourish to attract investment, support local business and build confident communities, then the framework for funding policing must not entrench the inequality between regions that soared during the party. Opposite's

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imposed austerity measures. Safer communities and I will give way. The hon. Lady. I mean, she's

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The hon. Lady. I mean, she's giving a very powerful speech and as she says, there will be that regressive impact of this police regressive impact of this police grant settlement, which is going to see higher and higher council tax see higher and higher council tax on low on low earning residents in her area and because of rising costs, actually reduced policing. costs, actually reduced policing. And that's obviously concerning. And I wonder how she's going to take that up with Ministers to try

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and affect change. Before they jump on their feet. It's completely up to them if they wish to take an intervention. I'm

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wish to take an intervention. I'm on my feet, completely up to the intervention. Mary Kelly Foy thank you, Madam

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Mary Kelly Foy thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. No, I'm happy with that invention. And and the point that the member raised. I'm if he

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that the member raised. I'm if he cares to listen to my response. No. OK. Yes. Sorry. Yeah.

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Yeah. Exactly the point. The point I'm raising. That is exactly what I'm doing now. I'm urging the government to look again at the at the council tax and the precepts and to because we are playing catch up, as you know, the government are playing catch up for the years and years of mismanagement and austerity under the members government. So safer communities enable growth. The settlement should reflect that principle fairly and consistently across the country, if whatever, to repair the damage caused by the conservative government's period in office.

Yeah.
14:11
Ben Obese-Jecty Portrait Ben Obese-Jecty MP (Huntingdon, Conservative)
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Ben Obese-Jecty. >> Ben Obese-Jecty. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The current funding system is complex, outdated and the product of legacy decisions rather than strategic design. My words, but the words of the government in the last words of the government in the last month's police reform white paper and I agree, which is why I don't approve of the Police Grant Report England and Wales for 20 2627, because the complex, outdated and legacy police allocation formula sees Cambridgeshire Constabulary down at the bottom of the list of forces for police funding per head, and yet the government is still using it.

Since being elected to the House, I've called on the government to change this repeatedly, and it continues to be an issue that concerns my constituents. Reliance upon a formula based on data from 2001 continues to maintain the existing imbalance in funding that the government now cannot continue, and the government. Is committed to updating the police allocation formula as part of their commitment to restructuring the 43 police forces in England and Wales. But this will not take place for years and it will be years more before we see any benefit locally.

So how will current recruitment and resourcing now dovetail into these new force structures? What rebalancing will take place, and would, would it not have made sense to have done the work on future structures first, so that the roadmap to the new model of policing could be better articulated? The government is already on the hook to fulfil their neighbourhood policing guarantee. But two weeks ago, the Association of Police and Crime Commissioners released a statement that clearly outlined that the settlement is only sufficient to fund the increase in personnel promised by the government under the Neighbourhood Policing Guarantee, in part with funding for hotspot policing already rolled into the Neighbourhood Policing Grant.

Where are we with the recruitment of 13,000 additional police officers, PCSOs and specials? That 13,000 was first announced in February 2023 by the then Home Secretary. In March 2023, the number of full time officers was 142,145. In March 2024, just before the general election, this figure had reached 147 745, an increase of 5600. By March 2025, this figure had fallen to 146,442, a 1% decrease year on year. So exactly what progress has been made in recruiting these 13,000 additional officers? What is the baseline figure that this is being benchmarked against? Is it March 2023 when the pledge was made? Is it March 2024? The most recent data available when Labour came into government, or March 2025, when the funding to recruit these officers actually came on stream? Happy to take an intervention from the policing Minister.

If she'd like to clarify exactly what the baseline figure is, no, as far as I'm aware, that baseline figure has never been clarified. And when I asked that question to the previous policing Minister, I got back a waffly non-response that didn't even attempt to answer the question does the government even know Harlow know nothing? Coming back to the point that the Liberal Democrat spokesman made earlier on when talking about the number of police officers per Ward, St Ives and Ramsay in my constituency has six officers in total.

That's across the police sergeant, PCs and PCSOs, six officers for ten wards and one Huntingdon. It's eight for 11, so that's 14 to cover 21. So already seven officers down. And that's assuming that none of those officers ever have a day off or ever on holiday or ever sick. I do not see where we are going to gain those additional officers that the policing Minister implies that are going to be received under the Neighbourhood Policing guarantee. In order to maintain that shortfall, we want to deliver the increase in neighbourhood policing, the government has pledged, but this can only be done if it is fully funded.

Current funding covers the cost of approximately 750 additional officers, so it is unclear how forces will be able to fund the remaining 1000 neighbourhood officers to which the government has committed. The APCC Joint Leads on Local Policing, Chris Nelson and Matt Storey have highlighted that as things stand, the maths simply do not add up. Less than a year ago, we saw the government revise down the neighbourhood policing figures. A staggering 31 of the 43 police forces in England and Wales amended their figures, having overstated them, resulting in a net reduction of 2611 police officers and PCSOs, a 13% decrease that included student officers based in the classroom, not out on patrol.

They included officers double counted on out of date HR systems. West Midlands Police had their true neighbourhood policing figure reduced by 62%, Gloucestershire by 65%, Wiltshire and Suffolk by over 50%. Is that 2611 factored into the 13,000? The Minister earlier on said that there had been an extra 2400 officers, neighbourhood police officers. But you're already 2611 officers. But you're already 2611 down, so we're net -211 officers. You'll forgive my scepticism about the accuracy of the government's policing plan. Oh, was I give way

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to the Minister? Just to be clear, there are 2400

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Just to be clear, there are 2400 extra neighbourhood police in our neighbourhoods. That is that is our policy is to tilt resources into our neighbourhoods. Because the previous government decimated neighbourhood policing and we're building it back up.

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building it back up. Ben Obese-Jecty. I appreciate the minister's intervention. I understood that point. My point was that those 2400 point. My point was that those 2400 don't even make up the 2611, that the government has already reduced the number of neighbourhood police officers by by recounting the number of officers that we have Lewes smoke and mirrors. Indeed, last month's police reform White Paper does little to clear up any confusion. We are aware the cost of police reform has been estimated at around 500 million, while the government has announced that 190 million will be allocated to the reform programme in 20 2627, said the Association of Police and Crime Commissioners.

Those police and crime commissioners have been scrapped, transferring police governance in 2028 to strategic authority, mayors or policing and crime boards, whilst it mentions the latter, whilst it mentions that the latter would be expanded to reflect larger forces in the future. It doesn't explain how strategic Authority mayors responsibilities

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would be restructured. I thank the hon. Gentleman for

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I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way on that topic. The point you just making about funding and police and crime commissioners who are saying that police funding has are saying that police funding has been cut, etc. and we're getting rid of police and crime commissioners, is that not many commissioners, is that not many better spent directly with police forces rather than to the Office of Police and Crime Commissioners?

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Yeah. I. I to be honest, I the way that we're looking at the police and crime commissioners, it hasn't really been clarified exactly how that responsibility is going to work across the country. And the point that I was trying to make there was that we're saying that the authority for policing locally is going to go to strategic mayors. That's fine. But if you're going to also merge forces, who will have primacy amongst those strategic mayors, for example, Cambridgeshire, that will evolve to the mayor of the combined authority, if that forces to merge with other forces in East Anglia, for example, a future mayor of Norfolk and Suffolk, which which of those two mayors will have primacy over that area?

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Would my. Gregory Campbell just that sort of incoherence which is upsetting my constituents. Humberside police my constituents. Humberside police force, the finest in the country, has a mayor on the North Bank and has a mayor on the North Bank and another mayor on the South Bank. So who exactly is going to be in charge of this police force? We don't know what's going to replace don't know what's going to replace it. We don't have the detail and we don't know what it'll cost.

All we do know from government reorganisations through the years, whoever's in charge, they're normally slower, they're more costly, and they don't normally

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deliver as much as government at the beginning. Hopes from. Thank you. I agree with my right hon. Friend, and I would hope that hon. Friend, and I would hope that that would be clarified either by one of the Ministers in the in the summing up, or there'll be further summing up, or there'll be further clarity within the White paper, because I've read the white paper and it currently isn't explained. We've also received little explanation of the way that the independent review of force structures will work, who the independent chair will be, and when and how they will be appointed when and how they will be appointed when the terms of reference will be published.

Whether we as Members of Parliament will be included within the scope of the policing stakeholders referenced in the White Paper. Some clarity regarding the process behind such seismic and sweeping changes desperately needs to be outlined. There are serious concerns that the new model for policing will not address some of the key resource requirements for rural forces, instead seeing cities and larger towns taking up an ever growing share of the available resources. Last week, I spoke to local NFU members in my constituency for the second year running.

Concerns regarding rural crime, specifically hare coursing, were raised by local farmers. This is a topic that we rarely hear spoken about in this chamber or by the government, and it is incomprehensible to many that idyllic rural locations could find themselves in the grip of violent, organised crime. But that is the situation that so many find

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themselves in. Is my hon. Friend concerned about not only that, but also increased industrial scale dumping in rural areas and also the in rural areas and also the additional pressures on neighbourhood policing, whether it's with increased illegal immigrants going into hotels and immigrants going into hotels and house of multiple occupancy and those being let out of prison that the neighbourhood policing are the neighbourhood policing are going to have to man Mark because of Labour's Sentencing Bill.

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Ben Obese-Jecty. I thank my hon. Friend, and there are so many different aspects to this that the the police are required to pick up the slack on, and I don't think that is factored into or reflected in the way that we are looking at in the way that we are looking at the force structures, and I would hope that it would be factored into the review of the forces going forwards. Coming back to rural crime in my constituency of Huntingdon, Cambridgeshire, Constabulary has an effective and successful rural crime action team.

There are only 14 strong and covering a huge rural area. This must be factored into discussions and not risk being lost in the maelstrom of focus on big ticket items brought under national control and a myopic focus on urban and neighbourhood policing. And I would add to that, it is my understanding that the Rural Crime Action Team, who specialise in dealing with machinery theft, GPS theft, hare coursing, have been moved from being operational Support Unit officers to being designated as neighbourhood policing.

They are specialist officers required to do a specialist role. They are not bobbies on the beat in the villages around my constituency and they are never going to be that, and so it is annoying to see that they are being restructured in that way. These designated rural crime specialist officers and neighbourhood officers to balance the books and take an administrative box isn't going to cut it. The Cambridgeshire Constabulary proved themselves to be an effective force, with the swift manner in which they neutralise the assailant.

Following the Huntingdon train attack last November. Speaking to my local officers, there are huge inconsistencies with the way in which each force is managed, and I would ask the policing Minister for clarity on how those discrepancies will be harmonised intra force. We know that the way in which overtime for police officers is calculated lacks consistency from force to force, as does the application of the adjustment Bank for outstanding hours owed. These are issues that are affecting officers on the ground. Not every issue is in policing is an operational resourcing question.

Much of the pressure officers are experiencing is due to administrative inconsistencies from pay inequality, with the allowance to officers wearing body armour that is past its expiration date because of failings in the procurement system. A tragic front page scandal waiting to happen. To conclude, I would ask the policing Minister, consider ring fencing funding for rural crime action teams in the new force structure so that rural crime can be eradicated once and for all. Pay disparities, particularly eligibility for the South East allowance and the application of overtime eligibility and management of the adjustment Bank consortium contracting, particularly the risk posed by reliance upon one make of vehicles and indeed the use of Volvo by any forces given they are now owned by the Chinese Xinjiang Geely Holding Group.

I believe our forthcoming meeting scheduled with the Policing Minister and I will be keen to continue the discussion around these issues with her. Then, on behalf of the officers in my

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county have received a raw deal for far too long. Edward Morello thank you. Madam Deputy Speaker. The 20. 2627 settlement delivers a cash

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2627 settlement delivers a cash increase nationally, but once again fails to address the structural fails to address the structural unfairness faced by rural forces such as Dorset. It does not properly reflect Rurality seasonal properly reflect Rurality seasonal population increases, or the cumulative impact of more than a decade of underfunding. Dorset
14:22
Edward Morello Portrait Edward Morello MP (West Dorset, Liberal Democrat)
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decade of underfunding. Dorset Police is consistently one of the worst funded forces in the country. It ranks in the bottom ten nationally for total funding, receiving around 203 million, and sits at roughly 26 out of 43 forces on a per capita basis. Despite covering over 1000mi² of largely rural geography, Dorset Police remains below the national average funding per head and far behind most urban and metropolitan forces. The 2627 settlement does nothing to change that relative position. The settlement assumes that police and crime commissioners will raise tax by the full 15 Banbury precept endorse it.

That assumption is particularly problematic. Around 51% of Dorset Police funding already comes from local council taxpayers, compared with a national average of 34% and as little as 20% in some of the better funded forces. Because Dorset has a smaller and slower growing council tax base, even the same £15 increase raises far left, far less in real terms than it does in urban areas. This settlement therefore locks in a reliance on council tax in a way that systematically disadvantages rural counties. We have seen this kind of a Treasury assumption where this kind of Treasury assumption leads before similar flawed assumptions in fire service funding has resulted in plans to close fire stations in maiden, Newton and Charmouth.

Once again, decisions are being based on unrealistic expectations of local funding, with consequences for rural communities. Although the government has stated that the recent 2.4% police pay settlement is fully funded nationally in Dorset, it's very different. For Dorset Police, settlement alone required £500,000 of savings to be found locally. Over the past three years, the forces had to make £2.8 million in savings, with a direct impact on staffing levels. Meanwhile, seven forces nationally are able to generate surpluses year after year, while six forces, including Dorset, are forced to find savings just to stand still or in many cases, regress.

This is not a fair or sustainable system. It makes a mockery of the government's neighbourhood policing guarantee, even after the proposed long term reforms. Dorset is one of the 11 forces that has still not returned to 2010 officer levels. And when a neighbourhood policing funding and when neighbourhood policing funding is examined in isolation, Dorset is

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the worst funded force in the country. Of course I will give way. I thank the honourable. Member for giving way. Over the

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Member for giving way. Over the weekend. I went on a walk around with my local police officers in Boscombe and in Springbourne, and Boscombe and in Springbourne, and they were talking about the need to make sure that, particularly over the summer months, neighbourhood police teams were not seen significant. In their words, abstractions of police officers from our communities into the seafront, but also the town centre, because Bournemouth particularly sees very large tourism and large numbers of people coming in from outside who sometimes cause criminality.

They also welcome the Neighbourhood guarantee, which will see an increase in neighbourhood police forces. Would he agree with me that we need to make sure that we keep our neighbourhood police forces in their neighbourhoods?

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I thank my fellow Dorset MP for his intervention and he will know that we we welcome a huge number of that we we welcome a huge number of tourists which are vital for our local hospitality and tourism economy. And while we want people economy. And while we want people to come, it does. It does put incredible strain on our local police forces and the funding does police forces and the funding does need to reflect that population increase forces that routinely, of course, I will give way.

In fact.

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course, I will give way. In fact. Grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way. I mean, one of the dangers while you're cutting the police 1300 last year alone, estimated by my police and crime commissioner, another 4000 nationally could go next year, is they come up with a smoke and mirrors, talk about neighbourhood policing and ask the hon. Gentleman, does he want to protect those? If an artificial number set from the centre leads to the removal of police officers from where they're needed locally to meet local need, that's not a good thing and I hope he is a proper liberal Democrat.

Would recognise local decision making needs to guide this post and we need to have a government not

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playing with smoke and mirrors. Well, I thank the right hon. Gentleman for saving me from the Gentleman for saving me from the indignity of not being intervened on by him during this debate, and I on by him during this debate, and I do agree that local police forces do need to be local, and we want bobbies on the beat everywhere. bobbies on the beat everywhere. Forces that routinely generate surpluses are able to invest in more officers, better technology more officers, better technology and healthy reserves.

Dorset cannot do that. Dorset Police serves large, sparsely populated areas like West Dorset, meaning longer response times, higher fuel costs and fewer economies of scale. Rural areas also tend to have less CCTV, fewer Anpr cameras and generally less witnesses, making crime harder and more resource intensive to investigate. National analysis shows that the average rural police force Budget is 6.03 million, compared with 8.52 million for urban forces. On top of that, Dorset faces intense seasonal pressures. As we discussed before, West Dorset alone sees a 42% population increase during peak tourist months.

Endorse it as a whole receives 25 million visitors back.

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I thank my hon. Friend for giving way and and I want to follow on from my my hon. Friend from on from my my hon. Friend from Bournemouth East as well. In just asking the Policing Minister again,

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asking the Policing Minister again, would you agree that it's about time we got an order? I don't agree, I do agree I'm

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I don't agree, I do agree I'm pretty neutral. So asking the member to agree not using the term are you?

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I can only apologise, Madam Chair. Would my hon. Friend agree that it is long overdue that the Policing Minister replied to the calls from Dorset MPs and Police and Crime Commissioner from November last year to look at the seasonality issue, because we simply cannot go on.

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To to help other members in case they make the same error. I'm not, Madam Chair. I am Madam Deputy

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Speaker. Edward Morello. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. And of course, I agree with my And of course, I agree with my Dorset neighbour. You know, we have we have all MPs have written to we have all MPs have written to repeated Ministers to ask for a fairer funding settlement, and I shall speak to some of those issues. shall speak to some of those issues. None of the additional demand caused by our population increases during the summer months is properly funded. Dorset Police faced a £3.6 million funding deficit in 2024, rising to 7.3 million last year, despite submitting evidence backed requests for additional funding of 12.2 million annually to recruit around 250 extra officers and staff.

That support has not been provided. Instead, the force is. The police force has been forced to cut community support officers by 43%, freeze recruitment cell vehicles and building, restrict overtime, and halt non-essential spending. If the government is serious about fair policing and neighbourhood visibility, two immediate steps are needed. Alongside the restructuring and long term reforms. Our rural police services calling for first greater precept flexibility for forces like Dorset that are already asking far more of local taxpayers than others. Secondly, as a stopgap, forces holding reserves above 5% should contribute back to a central redistribution pot, particularly when recommended levels are closer to 3%.

The proposed reforms are coming too late to make a difference on the ground to what people want to see from their police force, but this Police Grant Report delivers more cash but no structural fixtures. This comes before the police reforms. The Home Secretary laid out before this House a few weeks ago are even implemented. As part of these reforms, we must reassess how we properly fund rural police forces to allow for proper neighbourhood policing. In its current form, the grant means that rural forces like Dorset, once inflation, demand, population increases and geography are factored in, it's closer to standstill funding rather than a genuine uplift.

If we want safer rural communities, visible neighbourhood policing and public confidence. In fairness, the funding formula must finally reflect what rural constituencies experience on a day to day basis.
14:30
Steff Aquarone Portrait Steff Aquarone MP (North Norfolk, Liberal Democrat)
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Hey, Steph. >> Steff Aquarone. Thank. >> You, Madam Deputy Speaker, before I delve into the issues facing policing in Norfolk, I have facing policing in Norfolk, I have to discuss some of the simply incredible ways that funding allocations are decided within the Police Grant Report, which we're Police Grant Report, which we're debating today. It's just another example of a part of how our government functions, which is rapidly becoming unfit for purpose and somehow is not changing fast enough with the times. An array of complex sums based on data from a long ago, as 2001 census is dictating how many police officers in my constituency we can expect to see on the street over the next year.

If you ask the average person in the street Madam Deputy Speaker, how their local police force funding was decided, I'd argue very few would guess that a long formula, which includes multipliers such as the daytime net inflow in 2001, a population projection for 2013, and the number of unemployed men in between 2009 and 2012. In fact, the number of pubs and bars in an area is linked to the funding which a police force receives in police crime top ups one, three, four and five and the fear of crime top up.

The greater the number of licensed establishment per 100 hectares, the greater the multiplier the funding the police force will receive. Which leads me to a key question that I hope the Minister can answer in relation to this year's report and next year's funding settlement. With the Chancellor's ongoing war on pubs leading to closures across rural areas like mine, can she confirm that under her formula, not only would a community lose their local pub, but their local police force would also receive less funding the following year as a result.

Surely we can create a clearer, more up to date, more workable formula than this which delivers better data and better funding. I note that members of the Home Secretary's own party have called for reflection on this, and so I hope she will take this into consideration. People in North Norfolk want to feel reassured that they're getting a fair deal. I'm not sure the current system delivers that for them. Once upon a time, this formula may have delivered well, but I don't think with the evolving nature of crime, it's well suited for policing needs of 2026.

But whatever logarithms and multipliers the Home Secretary chooses to use, the reality on the ground in my area is clear. Our communities feel less safe than they once did. Community policing has been stripped back. Rural crime is not being handled with the seriousness that it deserves. I will.

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Thank my colleague for giving way. Does he agree that there are particular challenges in Norfolk, particular challenges in Norfolk, where under the previous conservative police and Crime Commissioner, not only were all of our police and community support our police and community support officers made redundant 150, but also many police stations lost their public access and that

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their public access and that accessibility and visible policing has been eroded as a result. Steff Aquarone intervention.

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Steff Aquarone intervention. Those facts are irrefutable, and I will come on to some of the points that he makes about the unique challenges of policing an area like North Norfolk, due to the unique characteristics of our shared county, we're lucky to have a lower than average rate of crime. But that doesn't mean that we should see our provisions cut back or officer numbers, reduced. Security and confidence in public safety is created by a well-funded and trusted police force, not by punishing us for not having enough crime.

Maybe the Minister could listen to her colleague and perhaps a future leader, the health secretary, in his focus on prevention, treating much of crime with a public health lens can provide us with sensible and holistic lessons about stopping crime before it happens, not just responding as best we can. Rural crime across the country is also at staggering rates, and that causes real fear for farmers and rural business owners in Norfolk. In Norfolk, our past conservative police and crime commissioners left us with zero specialist rural crime officers, an unbelievable statistic for such a rural county.

Latest stats show that after pressure from the Liberal Democrats, the numbers have reached the heady heights of two officers in 2024. Clearly, we have a long way to go and I'll be working with our PCC and police chiefs to ensure we can deliver more to tackle rural crime, and that the government is giving them what they need to deliver it. I've said time and time again that I am proud Madam Speaker to have the oldest population in the country in North Norfolk, but that brings challenges in policing and the way that my residents are targeted by criminals.

We know that older people are seen as good marks for fraudsters and scammers. In Norfolk last year we saw £4.5 million lost in investment fraud. In 2023, almost 100,000 lost to pension fraud, ripping the savings for retirement away from some. We have to crack down on this awful form of crime, which has serious financial as well as emotional impact on its victims. It saddens me that this prevalence of fraud and scams could make our communities less trusting and less confident in the goodness of others, or because of the actions of criminal groups out there to steal their hard earned money.

We also need to sadly accept that with the benefits that AI can bring, it will also be one of the ways it can be damaging. Scammers with access to AI can utilise it to make their scams more widespread and more efficient, hitting more people within shorter time frames. So when the long promised AI bill comes to the House, it would be great if we could see steps that have been taken to address this. We Democrats have called for the establishment of an online crime agency to focus on fraud and scammers who prey on my constituents.

I hope the government can look carefully at our proposals and make sure that we're taking action to stop these criminals damaging our communities. Madam Speaker, I'm not sure how many more police grant reports will debate in this House, which have Norfolk as its own line item, as the government's White Paper seems to be strongly flirting with the idea of merging us with as many as two or even three other counties. In my view, this is just another step that takes us further away from policing in the community and an understanding of what the area needs.

A lack of local leadership, making police chiefs even more distant, and the notion that policing priorities in Stalham could be dictated from as far away as Peterborough doesn't make sense to our constituents. The government have returning to type, centralising power and trying to sell it back to us with the promise of some meagre back office savings. It's their approach to local government reorganisation, to devolution and now to policing as well. We want them to make sure that Norfolk can stop crime, solve crime and make our community safer, not waste time and energy rejigging structures without a promise of improved outcomes.

Madam Deputy Speaker I know that North Norfolk is a fantastic community, which is lucky to see less crime than other parts of the country, but that's something which we've worked hard to achieve. I'm grateful to the hard work of Norfolk Constabulary, who keep my constituents safe and supported, and now it's time for the government to listen to their needs and make sure their money and the resource they need to keep us safe is being delivered.

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Final backbench contribution Clive Jones. Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. As my hon. Friend, Deputy Speaker. As my hon. Friend, the Member for Cheltenham said earlier, Liberal Democrats have long called for a return to proper long called for a return to proper community policing after years of conservative chaos and mismanagement. It's clear in mismanagement. It's clear in Wokingham and across the country that there are not enough police officers. Residents in Wokingham are always telling me that they want to see more bobbies on the beat, and they want a visible and trusted police presence in our communities, focusing on preventing and solving crimes.

This community presence is important, but it is not the only reason that we need greater police numbers. Many in Wokingham tell me that they need to see better police responses to crime as well. Shop managers don't want to feel that shoplifting isn't
14:37
14:38
Matt Vickers Portrait Matt Vickers MP (Stockton West, Conservative)
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I come to the Shadow Minister Matt Vickers. I join the House in thanking our front line police officers and staff for the incredible commitment, contribution and sacrifices they make to keep our streets safe. I am grateful to the Minister for her statement. There must say it has the familiar quality of a government announcing success. While the public are left wondering where exactly it occurred. Because the Minister has come to the House today to present this police funding settlement as a turning point, as if police numbers aren't actually falling, and as if criminals across the country are now packing up their tools and reconsidering their life choices.

But outside Westminster, Madam Deputy Speaker, the country looks rather different. The public judge policing in a far more old fashioned way than Ministers do. They judge it not by the tone of a statement, but by whether they see officers on the streets, whether the police answer the telephone, whether they turn up, and whether crime is dealt with when it happens. And on those measures, too many of our constituents feel that policing is being stretched to breaking point. This debate cannot take place without confronting the central fact that sits behind it.

Labour promised more police on our streets. Yet since Labour entered government, police officer numbers have fallen down by more than 1300. That's not a minor adjustment. It's not an accounting quirk. It's 1300 fewer police officers available to respond to crime, protect victims and patrol our communities. Gladly.

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I thank the shadow Minister for giving way to talk about reduction in officer numbers. Is there any consideration or thoughts on actually the numbers that you're talking about have been reduced, or actually those perhaps officers actually those perhaps officers coming to retirement are ill health. So we've been on restricted duties and not actually the officers that

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were on the street being seen by public and therefore the perceptions to sustain. The number of police officers

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The number of police officers out there on Britain's streets making the difference. There were 1000 149,769. There are now nearly 200, well 2000 less. That has to have a real impact. And well, you know what we hear about this neighbourhood policing noise. We try to to patch things up. Neighbourhood policing has a huge part to play in the policing model, but you can't take away the police who respond to those 999 calls. Should we badge police up, redeploy them and leave people waiting longer for a response to 999 when

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they really need it? I will. I'm extremely grateful to my hon. Friend. The powerful speech from the Member for North Norfolk. He the Member for North Norfolk. He talked about the rise of scammers and fraudsters. And in that light, I'm concerned about the fact that Humberside, it's been publicly announced by Ministers, is getting a 2.4% increase in funding. When a 2.4% increase in funding. When you take the costs through the police and crime commissioner shows it's a 2.9% cut. That's why 1300 it's a 2.9% cut.

That's why 1300 police officers have been cut so far. That's why another expected 4000 reduction next year. While the Minister goes through this carefully curated number of neighbourhood officers, the overall number is down and they're not

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being straight with us. I couldn't agree more. That's why we're seeing the number of robberies against businesses surge. robberies against businesses surge. That's why shoplifting is up. That's why people feel less safe on our streets. Between September 24th and September 25th, a period entirely on this government's watch, entirely on this government's watch, the number of officers has fallen by 1318 compared with the year by 1318 compared with the year before. More broadly, there are 3000 less people working in our police forces across this country to keep us safe.

In terms of headcount, yes.

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To the shadow Minister for giving way. I hear what he's saying about police numbers, but what was about police numbers, but what was he saying when we lost 500 from our police numbers in Cleveland on his

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government's watch? Was he concerned? Then? I was back. In 2010. I was deeply concerned about lots of things, the damage to our economy, the number of people without a job, the challenge that the government had to make and the government had to make and those difficult choices. But actually the last government left office with record numbers of

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police on our streets, and we'll take another intervention. I'm grateful for. The measuring of police

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The measuring of police effectiveness by looking solely at numbers is absolutely flawed. Does numbers is absolutely flawed. Does he accept that the the way that Theresa may allowed police numbers to plummet and claim that crime was to plummet and claim that crime was not falling was, in retrospect, completely flawed? And we lost a lot of experience through those

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years. So when the Conservatives last left office, we had record numbers of police on the streets. I don't know how many police officers we had on the streets. When the Liberal Democrats last left office. Progress, progress. I'm going to make some progress. More broadly, there are 3000 fewer less people working in police forces to keep us safe. In terms of headcount, the picture is starker. In March 2024, under the last government, there were 149,769 officers, the highest number since records began.

As of September 2025, that number stands at 147,621, a decrease of more than 2000. So when the Minister speaks about supporting the police, the House is entitled to ask a simple question how does a government support policing while presiding over fewer police concerning the bad news does not stop there. Both the number of officers in the British Transport Police and the number of staff working in the National Crime Agency have also decreased. At the same time as the government announced a national police service, which will be created from organisations including the NCA.

The staff who will make up this organisation are leaving. This is critical because the grant we're discussing today comes against a backdrop of many forces warning of their long term financial stability. As the chair of the National Police Chiefs Council stated, the overall financial picture remains challenging. Many forces are planning service reductions with consequences for officer numbers, staff capacity and overall resilience. This is a direct consequence of the decisions of this government. There are real funding challenges with real consequences for forces and communities across the country here and now.

The APPG. The APCC have said that this year's settlement leaves police forces with a shortfall that could be as high as £500 million across the country. Labour's own police and crime commissioners have spoken out on the challenges created in my own part of the world. Labour PCC Matt Storey has said that Cleveland Police are having to operate with one hand behind their back. That funding had failed to keep pace with the level of inflation, and while other funding has been removed and reallocated, making it impossible to maintain current levels of service, I understand he has written to the Minister on three occasions and still awaits a response.

Durham's Labour, Police and crime commissioner has been even more direct in her criticism of the government. This government's record on policing, saying that this Labour government has consistently demonstrated a complete lack of understanding of policing and community safety. The Minister will no doubt point to headline figures with great enthusiasm. Such spin fails to acknowledge inflation pay awards and the ongoing cost of the government's jobs tax. Many at home will be stunned that our own police forces were subjected to hundreds of millions of pounds of costs by way of the National Insurance increase, and the fact that the government has actually taxed the police off our streets.

This settlement is not a straightforward increase. The Minister claims it relies heavily on the police precept, pushing more of the burden onto local taxpayers, while forces face rising costs and rising demand. In 2023, an MP spoke to this House, claiming that the last government's approach was to put up local taxes, put up council tax, push the problem onto local forces. She added Ministers had chosen to heap

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the burden onto hard pressed local taxpayers through the precept. Any ideas that it might have been? Go on, tell.

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Go on, tell. Us the current policing Minister. Yes, given the government's fondness for U-turns, I'm not fondness for U-turns, I'm not surprised that the minister's change of view. However, we must be clear that under this Labour

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clear that under this Labour government I will gladly give way. Why didn't he do this if he was

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so upset about it? You are seeing an increasing burden on local taxpayers. When you're when you're in opposition and you're saying one thing, you arrive at government and you have to make real choices. Those choices have meant cuts to police numbers. That meant increases in the burden on local taxpayers has meant spiralling levels of retail crime and robbery against businesses. The consequences of this approach was obvious today, as they were then. The reliance on the police precept entrenches a postcode lottery in policing areas with strong council tax bases can raise more.

Areas with weaker council tax bases cannot. Yet the need for policing does not neatly align with local prosperity. Criminals don't check council tax bands before committing burglary. They don't decide whether where to operate based on local authority revenue forecasts. And yet, under this government's model, two communities can face the same crime pressures but receive very different policing capacity, simply because one can raise money more locally than the other. Perhaps the Minister can tell us what it was that changed her mind about increasing the burden of police funding on local taxpayers.

Also, given the articulate case made by the Member for Huntingdon, she could tell us, well, in fact, the case made by her in opposition, when we'll see this review of the funding formula, the pressures on policing are not diminishing. They're growing. Forces are dealing with county lines, drug gangs exploiting children, organised crime operating across borders, cybercrime and fraud, expanding industrial scale and domestic abuse cases which require extensive time safeguarding and specialist capacity. They're also dealing with public order demands that have become increasingly routine.

This is a modern landscape of threats that requires modern capacity, and it cannot be met with funding. Settlements designed for ministerial speeches rather than front line realities. Madam Deputy Speaker, this settlement will ultimately be judged not by the Minister's tone but by its results. Madam Deputy Speaker, this debate comes down to a difference between saying and doing. The government can say it supports policing, but too many see numbers falling. It can say it supports victims, but too many see no justice.

And it can claim to be tough on crime. While quietly introducing early release schemes that put offenders back on our streets sooner. Until the government's actions match its words, the public will not be convinced and nor should they be.
14:50
Jess Phillips Portrait Jess Phillips MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Birmingham Yardley, Labour)
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A Minister. Minister Jess Phillips. Phillips. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like to thank all of the members who have contributed to members who have contributed to this debate. Big, big representation from the Liberal Democrats here today. I won't Democrats here today. I won't repeat the details of the settlement we are debating today, as they've been set out very clearly by my hon. Friend, the Policing Minister. I will reemphasize the importance of the significant investing. It plays a key role in our programme of police reform through which we will enhance the efficiency and effectiveness of our police service and ensure they are equipped for the future.

This settlement also supports neighbourhood policing, the bedrock of the British policing model. We are listening to feedback from forces and giving them flexibility to shape their workforce and meet the demands of modern policing. And now. Now I will come to the points raised in the debate of which the hon. Gentleman who seeks to intervene on me raised many. So I'll excuse me if I if I don't currently. So the the I think the the whole house can agree no one likes the funding formula.

I gotta say, I thought it was an especially good trot through from the Member for North Norfolk and whilst not of my political stripes, is considerably better than the previous member for North Norfolk who has some responsibility, I'd say for some of the damage that is having to be fixed in this building, but the funding formula fundamentally is. If people would like to intervene and think that they have said something that I shouldn't have said, please feel free to defend the the one time Prime Minister of this country who crashed the economy.



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Graham Stuart as as as as as EFRA as ever. I'm afraid this Minister gets a facts wrong. But she is. But she is. Despite that frailty, she is nonetheless straightforward and pretty outspoken. So could I ask her to give? We get so few of them these days, so I really do look to her to provide them. Could I get answer direct answers to two questions. Are there fewer police officers now Are there fewer police officers now than there were when Labour came to power? And were there record numbers at that time? Are those two facts correct, or are we on this side of the House misleading the House, which we wouldn't want to do?

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Minister Philip. What what I'm going to come to is the points that have been raised is the points that have been raised in the debate. And that is one, as I pointed out, the hon. Gentleman raised many times. So the answer to raised many times. So the answer to the question and it was a question made by the the Member for Huntington, really specifically Huntington, really specifically about the baseline. And so the baseline of the people, the number baseline of the people, the number of police officers in neighbourhood police, which is measured from the 31st of March, were 17,715.

And that was the number of police personnel working in the neighbourhood. Now today it is 20,687. I should also tell a story about the time I went to Cumbria Police. Recently. I went to Cumbria Police and what I watched was in the call centre, which I have to say, they were doing some really brilliant work and I met some brilliant domestic violence advisers who were working in that call centre. But the people staffing the call centre were warranted. Police officers. I don't think that warranted police officers should be staffing the call centres in police departments.

I will make some progress. I don't think that they should be doing that, and that is why we are tilting to increase the number of police, 12,000 of them, getting them from behind desks to where they need to be working on the front line. However, I go back to the consensus in the House today from a number of members, whether it's a City of Durham, whether it's Cleveland represented by a number of people in this chamber today from different sides of the House, to to talk about some of the unfairness that exists within the funding formula and that the funding formula, it would be ridiculous to currently reform the police funding formula and then, like, do all of the police reforms and then paste it onto a completely new thing, is what I would say.

And so when the review of policing, which the Member for Huntington has already spoken about and, and laid out the questions he wanted asking, answering about the white paper is the point is, there is going to be a review of policing and and exactly what that new. I like the way everybody started. You've started saying mega forces as if it will be a bad thing. And to me, I've got to say, it sounds quite cool, but it sounds like something out of RoboCop, which is not government policy, but the, the, the it is for the Member for Huntingdon and every.

Other member in this House to take part in that review and ask those questions that he asked here today of that and ensure, like everybody will in this place, they will represent their area. And it seems a little remiss of me to not to anybody would listen. I have to say to people talking from the perspective of their largely the people who have spoken today came from rural communities or semi-rural communities. To to one would have me believe, from listening to some of that debate, that where I live is basically a police state where if you call the police, you'll get somebody out in five minutes.

I have to say, I recognise the police don't come when people need them. I recognise the exact same issues that every single rural member of Parliament raised around the needs of their police forces, and the concern, the idea that in West Mercia, I think, was one of the cases that all of that will be sucked away from Birmingham or like I feel the same way about other bits of Birmingham, or I feel the same way about other bits of areas, and that is why we need to reform the system.

I was also this morning in a, in a meeting with the three of the most senior police officers in our country who are part of the new violence Against Women and Girls Policing Unit that we have created in government. And what we were talking about was the disparity between the 43 different police forces and the domestic abuse risk assessment that they use and the disparities, and where stalking or honour crime is done well in one, or this is done well in the other.

And and I felt in that meeting I thought, gosh, we're going to have the opportunity to start from first principles. And if I were to design the police force today in behalf of women and children in our country, I would not have designed the systems that we have today. And so I ask people to enter into the police reform issue with that spirit, with regard to the policing funding formula, there is absolutely no doubt about the fact that and I suffer from this in Birmingham as well, that a council tax base that is low to the members who have mentioned that, that, that, that that does disproportionate and absolutely.

When the funding formula as part of the reform of policing takes place, it will have to rely on need, deprivation and demand, as was laid out by the gentleman. And what I'd say with that is that need can do a huge amount of heavy lifting for the members in the room who raise the issue of things like seasonality, and I will give way

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and I will give way, and then I'm going to stop Ben Obese-Jecty. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Minister mentions the factors that will go into the police allocation form. It's currently based on the population size from 2014 and the density and sparsity figures from 2001. Will those figures, because somewhere like Cambridgeshire has somewhere like Cambridgeshire has received an additional 300,000 people living there since since that formula first came into effect, will that be effective from and from what date will the population data be taken? Will it be the 2021

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census or the 2011 census? Look to to answer to the first question. Yes, of course it would question. Yes, of course it would be absolutely 2001. Did he say? I mean, also, I really enjoyed the little bit of conflab in this little bit of conflab in this debate about like who was to blame for what and sort of went back to things being blamed on the last Labour government, which I'd just like to remind everyone in this room, we have to be careful of the room, we have to be careful of the way that we are seen, because I wasn't old enough to vote the last time the Labour, the last Labour government came to power.

Just to be clear that we should update some of our references, but the, the, the, the idea that it would go from 2001 is an absolute. That to me seems completely and utterly ridiculous. But the review will be undertaken to to look. But all I can say is as recent as one would expect, as recent as is possible with data that allows, I can see that people are keen for me to be quiet. So the what I would say is

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that we wish to oh, I will give. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I'm really grateful to my friend for giving way. She talked about a new funding formula needs to be based on need and the challenges based on need and the challenges that the preset creates. We are never going to get fairness if the never going to get fairness if the council tax system is the method of doing it. Is she ruling out getting rid of the police precept as a

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method of raising funding? Yeah. The hon. Gentleman. Far be it from me to literally have the authority to do that right now. I've just got to be honest. But like both, both our colleagues from local government and policing sit here on the front bench and hear the concern about what the how that interplays. But you're absolutely right. But for me, the thing is about need and trying to make sure that we we look at the different things that face different areas.

In conclusion, Madam Deputy Speaker, we are committed to giving the police the resources that they need. And that is exactly what this settlement does. We want to see robust neighbourhood policing that engages with the public to build trust and confidence. We are grateful for all the work that the incredible men and women of our police service do, and therefore are determined to provide them with the capability and flexibility which I have to say is what they have asked for with regards to funding to to have the tools that they require, the removal of arbitrary targets for officer numbers means that local chiefs have more flexibility to shape their workforce, to meet the demands of modern policing, and do the vital work behind the scenes.

This settlement is only the first step. The 20 2627 settlement therefore provides the police with immediate resources needed to continue their invaluable work alongside the opportunity to invest in the future. And I commend it to the House.

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Right. The question is, as on the Order Paper, as many that opinion say, I. I Of the contrary, opinion say, I. I Of the contrary, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. I'll give the front benches a few moments to shuffle over. few moments to shuffle over. Colleagues should leave quickly and Colleagues should leave quickly and quietly so we can continue with the business. If the front benches are ready, we now come to the motions relating to local government finance, which will be debated together.

I call the Secretary of together. I call the Secretary of State to move the motion on the Local Government Finance report. Secretary of State Steve.
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15:02
Steve Reed Portrait Rt Hon Steve Reed MP, The Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local Government (Streatham and Croydon North, Labour )
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Instruments for its careful consideration of these reports. I believe in local government because believe in local government because I've lived it as a councillor and as a council leader. I saw the difference that councils make to difference that councils make to people's lives. Local government is the part of our democracy that is closest to people and the things closest to people and the things that they care about the most their family, their community and their family, their community and their hometown.

Labour took office after 14 years of ideological cuts imposed on local government. The Tories devolved the blame for their failure in national government by imposing £16 billion of cuts on councils and local communities. Even worse, they targeted the worst of those cuts deliberately on our poorest communities. The former Prime Minister was filmed standing in a leafy garden in Tunbridge Wells, boasting about how the Conservatives have stripped away funding from struggling towns so

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they could play politics with public money. I'd be great. I'm very grateful. To the Secretary.

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To the Secretary. Of State for giving way. On that point. Has he done the analysis on how

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Has he done the analysis on how the division of the pride in place funding has gone between Labour and

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Reform seats versus Liberal Democrat and and conservative seats? I actually thought he was going

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I actually thought he was going to stand up and apologise for the House, for what his government did in diverting money away from the poorest communities. I'm very disappointed and I suspect I'm not the only one that he didn't take that opportunity. Perhaps he'll take the opportunity later on, but I would remind him and his colleagues that under the Tories, only 3 in 10 councils received funding that aligned with deprivation. With this government, it's over nine in every ten, and local people were forced to pay a staggeringly high price for Tory venality.

High streets were hollowed out and boarded up. The number of people sleeping rough on our streets doubled, the number of families stuck in temporary accommodation doubled more potholes on our roads than craters on the

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moon. I'll give way so he can apologise for that. Well, I want to. Say thank you, actually, for the pride in place money, which I've. And I'm very grateful to the government for giving £20 million for my, my constituency. But on the for my, my constituency. But on the subject of, of of funding for councils, the government is now requiring district councils to, to requiring district councils to, to pay for food recycling, which is not an unreasonable proposition. But there was a principle under the previous government of new burdens previous government of new burdens funding where when a new burden would be presented to a council, the government would sort it out.

Why has your government. Sorry, Madam Deputy Speaker. Why has the Minister's government decided not to support councils with new

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burdens? Funding? Well, I'm grateful for his words about pride in place, and I'm glad he's answered his colleague's question, because, of course, it is being distributed to constituencies represented by members from right across the House. The point that he across the House. The point that he makes about food waste recycling funding for that has been built into the settlement. So it is present and the new burden is indeed being funded in that way. So.

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So, so the Minister is being incredibly kind on that, but he talks about the settlement. The settlement doesn't work in Wyre settlement doesn't work in Wyre Forest District Council. We've had a 0% increase in the core funding and indeed across the whole of and indeed across the whole of Worcestershire. Dare I say it, Madam Deputy Speaker, where there has been a district council with a has been a district council with a Conservative Member of Parliament, there has been a zero increase where there have been a district councils with a Labour Member of councils with a Labour Member of Parliament, there has been up to a 5% increase.

Can the Labour Minister perhaps explain why this has happened?

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Mistakes the the the settlement follows a funding formula and it follows a funding formula and it takes account of the of the costs of delivering food waste recycling in the way that he described in the way that he described earlier on. But but if I might just return to my theme for a moment, Madam Deputy Speaker, before I take Madam Deputy Speaker, before I take any more interventions, he will remember as colleagues across the remember as colleagues across the House will, that the Tories used to belittle local councillors as part time volunteers, and they took away their pension rights to deter people from risking a career on the front line of local government.

So today it falls to this government to fix the foundations that the Tories smashed apart. We are rebuilding local government so councils can rebuild their communities. We are making good our promise to introduce multiyear funding settlements so councils can plan for the future with certainty. We are reconnecting funding with need so we can take off the Tory shackles that have held back so many of our towns and our communities for so long, and we are ending wasteful bidding wars for funding, freeing councils to focus on filling in potholes, not filling in forms.

We are putting fairness back into a system the Tories bragged about breaking. We reject the decline that ripped the hearts out of towns and communities up and out of towns and communities up and

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down this country. We choose change. Helen Morgan giving way. Shropshire Council is about to see a 10% cut in its core funding from central government, having been terribly badly run by the Conservatives for the previous 16 Conservatives for the previous 16 years before the Lib Dem administration took over in May, the government has given it permission to put up its council tax by 9%. Without a referendum that doesn't even touch the sides of the cut in funding from central of the cut in funding from central government.

How is Shropshire that needs to receive exceptional financial support in this year? Ever going to fill that ever growing black hole, unless the funding from government reflects

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the cost of delivering services in rural areas? Yeah. I believe she's had several meetings with my colleague, the meetings with my colleague, the Minister for Local Government. But, you know, I think it is right that you know, I think it is right that we should align funding with need. It's very important that that is done. It's the only way to ensure that funding is fair across the whole country. That is what we promised to do in our manifesto. promised to do in our manifesto.

That is what we are doing with this, with this settlement. Now, I'm, I've, I've taken an awful lot of intervention so far. I don't want to leave no time for my. Well, one

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more. One last one. Madam Deputy Speaker. Matt Western. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, can I thank the Secretary? He's been very generous with his time. And may I just say that, like him, I also, as a councillor, saw I also, as a councillor, saw appalling pressures put on our local council in reading whilst funding actually went up in neighbouring Wokingham, which is a neighbouring Wokingham, which is a much better off area and was then controlled by the Conservatives. And I do appreciate his work on readjusting the settlement to readjusting the settlement to reflect need.

That should be a fundamental point of any allocation of resources. Local government. Would you like to say a little bit more about his work on this, and how it's going to benefit residents

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on the smallest incomes in the most disadvantaged communities? Thank you. Well, I mean, at Core, what we're hearing from all sides of the we're hearing from all sides of the house at the moment is people's views on the fact that under the previous government, the alignment between funding and deprivation was broken and this government is bringing it back because they did nothing about it for 14 years. It became extremely detached from deprivation. So putting it back in deprivation.

So putting it back in and making sure that funding goes where the need is greatest. Not, as the former Prime Minister bragged, stealing money from the poorest communities to pork barrel Tory areas can no longer go on. Now I will one.

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Robin Swann for giving way. Can I say he's. I think he's been a opposite. A little unfair.

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A little unfair. To look at the cuts and austerity from 2010 to 2024. The austerity from 2010 to 2024. The biggest cuts actually came from 2010 to 2015, when the Lib Dems were in coalition. Perhaps they

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were in coalition. Perhaps they should share some of the blame as well. Well, I certainly agree that the Lib Dems should share the blame for austerity. I was in fact a council leader myself, while the Lib Dems and Tories were in coalition together. I think they cut our council by a third just over the first, first 1 or 2 years that they were in power and now they have. Now they have the chutzpah to stand up and complain that this government is putting some of it back.

So I really think they should they should reflect. Now, I've taken an awful lot of interventions, more from this side of the house, from them, from my own side of the house. So with your kindness, I will make a little progress. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Now I would like to thank all of those who contributed to the provisional settlement consultation. We listened carefully to views expressed by councils and MPs, and today I am pleased to announce an additional £740 million in new grant funding over and above the provisional settlement.

This means that by the end of the multi-year settlement, councils will benefit from a 15.5% increase in core spending power worth over £11.4 billion compared to 20 2526. When this government took office. We introduced the recovery grant, targeted on those areas held back the most by Tory and Lib Dem austerity. This year we have maintained that grant, so every upper tier council that received it will see a real terms boost. If I can make just a little more progress than I will certainly come to him.

I can announce a £440 million uplift to the recovery grant over the multi-year settlement targeted at councils the Tories hit with below average funding increases. By the end of this Parliament, we will have invested a total of £2.6 billion in the most deprived councils through the recovery grant, over and above what they received through the settlement. I've also listened carefully to feedback from the sector about business rates pooling, and as a result, I'm compensating any authorities that would have lost funding this year so they have

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time to adapt to the new arrangements. Grateful. Very grateful to my right hon.

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Very grateful to my right hon. Friend for giving way. I was councillor for five years before coming here in July 2024. I just coming here in July 2024. I just want to say thank you to the Minister, to the Minister for Local Government as well, and Ministers who were there before the who were there before the Department for the engagement, because I can tell you, the relationship now is different to what it was before. The what it was before. The conversation we've had since the provisional settlement has been constructive.

It's been it's been good. It's been done in good spirit. And I'm very grateful to the result that we've got for Saint Helen's because sorry, Madam Deputy Speaker, in 2010, Saint Helens got £127 million a year from the last Labour government. But the party opposite left office. It was £13 million a year. Does the Secretary of State

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share my absolute shock at the brass neck of members? Opposite interventions can be

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just as short and productive. I thank you very much for his intervention and what he's seeing intervention and what he's seeing is the realignment of funding with deprivation, and that is as it

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deprivation, and that is as it should be, because, above all, I will take one more than I'm going to continue. It's been he has been

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It's been he has been tremendously generous and he's been doing his normal, normal, barnstorming, political knockabout speech. Perhaps he may start to act more like a Secretary of State because the low income, low, low income residents of the East Riding, of whom there are many and in Beverley and Holderness, are going to have a £200 council tax bombshell The smallest house is going to be paying £200 more in three years time and will have reduced overall funding to support public services after the increase in costs imposed by the government.

That is the reality and why. So my question to the Secretary of State is he said he wants to focus on need. Why has reality been removed from need when it's such a real issue? Well.

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The easy answer to that one is it hasn't been. It's still there, right? Above all else, Madam Deputy right? Above all else, Madam Deputy Speaker, this settlement is about fairness because we on this side of fairness because we on this side of the House reject the Tory belief that our poorest communities should be left to sink with less funding be left to sink with less funding and worse public services than other parts of the country. That other parts of the country.

That approach pulled our country apart, and in doing that, it was profoundly unpatriotic. Our settlement reflects a council's ability to raise income locally, and it reflects the fact that it costs more to deliver services in different parts of the country, retaining Rurality funding for social care, because we recognise workers in those areas have to travel longer distances. We have used the most up to date data on deprivation to make sure funding accurately follows need. I'm going to make progress, I'm afraid.

We are introducing changes gradually over the period of the settlement, so councils have time to adapt and we are protecting councils income, including from business rates growth. Today's settlement is a milestone in returning councils to a sustainable financial footing, and a milestone in restoring fairness to local government

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funding one last time. I'm incredibly grateful to the Secretary of State for giving way. He calls it a milestone. I call it He calls it a milestone. I call it a milestone. He talks about fairness in my Spelthorne constituency. We have standards constituency. We have standards that hits the markers for the deprivation criteria, which would deprivation criteria, which would have got the pride in place funding, but it gets diluted by the fact that we have more affluent areas in my constituency.

How is that fair to the people of Stanwell that they don't qualify for pride and place funding just because they're surrounded by more affluent areas? Isn't the Secretary of State just going to engineer pockets of

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deprivation, continuing rather than helping? Yes, Secretary. I'm afraid he's misunderstood how it works, because it doesn't how it works, because it doesn't get diluted. The way that it operates is by looking at super output areas on a very small level, output areas on a very small level, so we can ensure that the funding goes to those areas that have the highest levels of deprivation. And highest levels of deprivation. And I would be happy to write to him about that. It would help him to understand how it works better.

Now, understand how it works better. Now, for the vast majority of councils. Madam Deputy Speaker, incomes in council tax will be restricted to 3% and 2%. I'm going to make some progress, I'm afraid, and 2% for the adult social care precept. There are a few councils facing extremely challenging financial pressures that the previous government turned into a crisis by ignoring their problems for over a decade. In response, in response to requests from those councils, I am giving them flexibility to increase their council tax above referendum principles next year.

Unlike the previous government, we will not agree any increases which could lead to households in these areas paying above national average council tax. But we will not let councils go to the wall and see their residents punished with failing services. These flexibilities will apply. Apply to Warrington, Trafford, Worcestershire, Shropshire, North Somerset, Windsor and Maidenhead and Bournemouth, Christchurch and Poole. One fire authority will also be granted additional flexibility. These are caps, not targets and no area with additional flexibility will see bills rise above the national average by that point.



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Thank you, Madam Speaker, and I thank the Secretary of State for making that point around council making that point around council tax and having that flexibility for local councils. But will he agree with the Local Government Association who are worried? And they state that council tax is not the solution to financial the solution to financial challenges facing local government, and it places an existing burden on some of the most poorest households.

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some of the most poorest households. Does he agree that we should now be looking at council tax reform? State? Well, I agree with the chair of the select committee, insofar as council tax cannot be the only means to fix these problems. That's why we've increased the level of funding overall and reconnected it with the deprivation indices that tell us which areas have the greatest need, and therefore should get a fair share of the funding that's available. Now, the Home Secretary and I have also agreed an additional £3, 50 council tax flexibility for six police and crime commissioners in 20 2627, where this was critical to financial sustainability in maintaining law and order.

It is for councillors, mayors and police and crime commissioners to set their own council tax and take into account the impact on households when taking those decisions. Nationally, Council tax will not increase by more than it did last year. Six local authorities set council tax bills between £450 and £1000 lower than the national average, because of the high value of homes in their areas. The previous government made no adjustment in the formula for this, creating unfairness in the funding formula.

It is not fair that people living in our poorest communities should subsidise rock bottom bills in some of our wealthiest areas, so I am giving these councils additional flexibility to manage their budgets as we align funding with need, as we should. For councils that need some support to balance their budgets. This year, we will no longer just sign off borrowing or the sale of assets without a credible approach to reforming services to get back to financial stability later this month, I will be confirming arrangements for supporting councils in the most difficult positions, but they will be expected to bring forward plans for more effective and sustainable services built on sustainable budgeting into the future.



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The Secretary of State. I just want to make some progress because I've taken quite a lot of interventions, but I will lot of interventions, but I will bring them in before the end. I know that local government is still under pressure, and we won't bury under pressure, and we won't bury our heads in the sand or dodge the difficult decisions. The adult social care system is in crisis, social care system is in crisis, and we're facing up to that by transforming it.

This settlement transforming it. This settlement makes available around £4.6 billion of additional funding for adult social care in 20 2829 compared to 20 2526, including £500 million for the sector's first ever fair pay agreement. That means more carers getting better pay with the time to provide the high quality, compassionate care they want to give. And it will get us moving towards a national care service that gives better quality care,

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joined up services and more choice and independence for people. Thank you.

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Thank you. The Secretary. Of State for giving way, and

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we're very grateful for the. The settlement and the. Announcements that he's making

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Announcements that he's making today. But both Redbridge in my constituency, both Redbridge and Waltham Forest are receiving Waltham Forest are receiving significant uplifts from this parliament. And Ministers have been excellent in listening to those arguments for both of our London boroughs. But whilst this won't be enough to fill the immediate financial gaps left by the Tories, it is a step forward. However, given that temporary accommodation is. Costs have risen. Risen so much in London by about 75% over the last five years.

Will the Minister help to set out how the government is acting to expand the supply of socially rented homes?

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I thank him for his comments and his recognition that funding is indeed now. Following DEFRA deprivation. He'll find the answer deprivation. He'll find the answer to that in in the homelessness strategy. And I'm going to come on to comments on that. And I will to comments on that. And I will speed up, because Madam Deputy Speaker is indicating her wrist. So I need to make some progress now on I need to make some progress now on children's social care. Again, the system was left on its knees.

That is why this government is driving forward the biggest transformation of children's social care in the generation. By rolling out the family's first partnership programme. This government has backed the programme with nearly £3 billion over four years, including over £2.4 billion investment in this multi-year settlement. It gives local authorities, police and health partners the tools to provide families with the right support at the right time, shifting the system from expensive statutory provision towards early intervention and preventative support.

It will help families stay together, divert thousands of children from care and transform the outcomes and wellbeing of children across the country. This investment in the Families First Partnership Programme marks a milestone in transforming the children's social care system, but we recognise the children's social care residential market is fundamentally broken. Local authorities are being pushed to the brink, while some private providers are making excessive profits. This cannot and will not continue. Instead, we are working to reduce reliance on residential care and move towards a system rooted in family environments through fostering.

Last week, the government set out a plan to expand fostering for 10,000 more children. By the end of this parliament. The evidence is clear that taking this approach will be better for children and better for the local authorities who provide the services using the new powers in the Children's Wellbeing and Schools Bill, we will explore implementing a profit cap in the children's social care placement market to ensure public money delivers value and care, not profiteering. It is obvious that the current system is not working for children and families, and we know that it's not working for councils either, which are seeing funding for neighbourhood services diverted into a broken system.

The government is bringing forward ambitious reforms that will create a better and financially sustainable send system built on early, high quality support for kids with Send to improve their time at schools and maximise their potential throughout life. My right hon. Friend, the Secretary of State for education, will set out the details of these reforms in the upcoming in the upcoming Schools White Paper. But crucially, we are taking action now to support local authorities. As we move towards that reformed system. We will deliver this in phases.

The first phase will address historic deficits accrued up to the end of 2526. All local authorities with send deficits will receive a grant covering 90% of their high need deficit up to the end of 20 2526. This is subject to local authorities securing Department for Education's approval of a local send reform plan, and on homelessness too. We know that temporary accommodation, as my colleague has said, is a growing financial pressure on councils with near record levels of rough sleeping and declining social housing stock.

So the final settlement also provides a £272 million uplift to the homelessness, rough sleeping and domestic Abuse grant, taking total investment delivered through the settlement to £2.7 billion on the ground. That will mean families off the streets, kids out of temporary accommodation, instead living in safe, secure homes. People's lives are put back on course and we're matching that landmark investment with our national plan to end homelessness, led led by my my hon. Friend to put the full might of the state behind preventing homelessness before it happens.

Madam Deputy Speaker, just to bring it to an end, today's settlement is about keeping a promise, a promise to repair foundat government, a promise to put the hack into our communities. When the last government slashed councils to the bone, the consequences were severe. The services people use every day were undermined, streets became filthy, and people's lives got tougher. The hard work of councillors, mayors and front line staff kept vital services running during those hard Tory years and we thank them for the work they did in those circumstances.

Our aim is a future where councillors working with their communities have the freedom to innovate, rebuilding public services and investing in high streets, youth clubs and libraries. We are fixing the foundations so councils and their communities can build the public services. Renew the high streets and shape the future they want to see.

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Here is the motion on the Local Government Finance report as on the Order Paper. And before I call the Shadow Minister, I have a deferred division. Result. Order, order! I will now announce the result of today's deferred division draft Greenhouse Gas emissions trading scheme amendment. Extension to Maritime Activities Order 2026. The Maritime Activities Order 2026. The eyes were 362. The nose were 107. So the ayes have it, the ayes have it. And I call the shadow Minister David Simmonds.
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David Simmonds Portrait David Simmonds MP (Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner, Conservative)
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Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah. Thank you very much indeed, Madam Deputy Speaker. I know the Secretary of State and I will have had long experience of working with Morgan McSweeney in as many days as head of the Labour group at the Local Government Association. And I think that influence is reflected in the very political speech which we've just heard from the Secretary of State, which I have to say, despite its political excellence, I am struggling to reconcile with what is actually in the finance statement which he has laid before the House to agree this afternoon.

Now, we do have a high level of agreement that local government touches all of our lives and our communities. We recognise its huge potential to develop our economy, to improve public health, to give children a great start in life. And we know that there are over 800 different services delivered by the average local authority in this country. They are there for us literally from cradle to grave, and they are led by those democratically elected councillors who run budgets that are bigger than many government departments, and in organisations that are more complex than many FTSE 100 business.

But having served, like the Secretary of State as a councillor under the last Labour government, we see a swift reversion to type announcements of funding for social housing arriving maybe towards the end of the decade. Funding for schools from VAT on fees on private education amounting to a real terms cut in state school funding and a massive diversion at the heart of what the Secretary of State has set out a funding away from the legally enforceable statutory duties placed on councils by this Parliament towards generalised poverty as a driver of those allocations which are leaving councils, of course.

Sir Liam Fox. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way. Does he acknowledge that the Labour Government has abolished the Rural Services Delivery Grant? This has cost Somerset Council £4.1 million, its cost other rural counties many millions of pounds. In rural counties where it's more expensive to provide services. And does he agree with me that this is Labour diverting money from rural areas that are desperately in need to Labour strongholds in the north? Well, Madam Deputy Speaker, the Member for Bridgwater is absolutely spot on.

And when we look at the analysis that's been produced by the County Councils Network, say that out loud. They made a comparison. What is the funding pressure on those statutory services facing the urban councils that are the beneficiaries of the government's largesse? It totals £180 million a year. What is the Budget gap facing rural areas as a result of this government's decision? They face a £2.7 billion

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course. That is nothing new in every one

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That is nothing new in every one of the last 29 years, people in the New Forest who are lucky enough to have a modest property in the have a modest property in the forest and a mansion in the city, have come to me to complain about how much more it costs them for how much more it costs them for their modest property in council tax in the forest, and I've told them that the one is subsidising the other. But the reality is, for those people who are not in that fortunate position, young families with only one property in my parliamentary constituency, they are subsidising the north and the cities and they can't afford it.



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Thank you. Madam Deputy Speaker. I hesitate to to disagree with the hon. Member to to disagree with the hon. Member for New Forest West. It wasn't ever this the Rural Services grant referred to by the Member for referred to by the Member for Bridgwater was a measure to address those additional cost burdens, direct costs arising from statutory direct costs arising from statutory duties, and a funding stream which is being removed by this Labour

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is being removed by this Labour government. Of course I'll give way to my constituency neighbour. Grateful to the Shadow Secretary for giving way. He will remember that when the Conservative Party took control of Harrow Council four years ago, they did so and presumably he campaigned on this promise of freezing council tax. Instead, council tax has risen by 20% over the last four years. So will he take the opportunity now to apologise to the people of Pinner and indeed Harrow more generally for his party, saying one thing when they were campaigning and doing exactly the reverse and increasing the cost of living for his constituents and my constituents.



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Madam Deputy Speaker, not wishing to be parochial, I'm sure he would also like to join in the he would also like to join in the apologies for the appalling level of corruption that had taken place under Labour in the London Borough under Labour in the London Borough of Harrow, who left an astonishing legacy of cost overruns in the local authority's highways local authority's highways department, something which I know has been very much covered in the local and the national media, which I know has taken a good deal to recover from.

I'm sure we wouldn't want the House to be inadvertently misled about the impact of that. So, Madam Deputy Speaker, the warning lights, of course.

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Grateful to my hon. Friend and Rotherham are my typical habit to get involved in political knockabout. But following that, but knockabout. But following that, but following that astonishing intervention of showing such a total lack of self-awareness, does. Does he remember that the now Prime Minister saying that not a penny Minister saying that not a penny would go up in council tax? And yet this settlement assumes 5% a year this settlement assumes 5% a year on low income people in rural East Yorkshire at the same time that core funding is cut £200 hit for the smallest house in our area.

While as my right hon. Friend commented on earlier, very valuable homes in central London seem to pay a fraction of the amount.

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Madam, I apologise. Right hon. Member for New Forest West but the Member for New Forest West but the member we've just heard from is absolutely correct. We need to reflect on the fact that when reflect on the fact that when Ministers talk about additional resources provided to local government, that two thirds of the government, that two thirds of the funding in this settlement, two thirds alone, comes from the maximum possible council tax rise maximum possible council tax rise across the country, and a large chunk of the rest is coming from a huge rise in business rates.

Of

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Friend. I think the hon. Gentleman for giving way. It's interesting to giving way. It's interesting to hear him completely removed from his memory. What happened in the 14

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years of his government? You remember back. To when this began in 2010, when

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To when this began in 2010, when council tax generated about 20%, council tax generated about 20%, 20% generated about 20% of council funding. And how it's grown over the years under the conservative and coalition governments to actually deliver now more than half of local government funding. How can he say this is a problem when his government originated that

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process? Madam Deputy Speaker, I'm sure you'll be pleased to know that that prompts me to move on to the next prompts me to move on to the next part of what I think we need to say, because let us let's recall, for those who cry austerity at these benches, that the last Labour government spent on average 10% government spent on average 10% more every year of its final decade in office than it raised in taxes, in office than it raised in taxes, which left a colossal legacy of debt that we've scarcely yet begun to repay.

Millions were squandered on projects like building schools for the future that were cancelled at the tail end of the last Labour government by Alistair Darling as they ran out of money. So when we see those authorities, I'm just going to move on a little bit, but I'll bring you in, I'll bring you in a moment. But when we look at the reports of what this means at constituency level, councils like Surrey that have embraced this Labour government's devolution agenda, that have now lost the opportunity for the mayor that they were promised.

They report that this leaves them £60 million a year short. Hon. Members will be ill served by the consequences of this

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Budget. I give way. Thank you, Madam Speaker. I'm grateful to him giving way. I'm grateful to him giving way. I'm sure he didn't mean to inadvertently mislead the House, but as I was a councillor in

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but as I was a councillor in with. Absolute surety it was the

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Absolute surety it was the Conservatives who cancelled the building schools for the future programme, and I think you take the opportunity to correct the record. opportunity to correct the record. You cancelled it. We initiated it.

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They cancelled it. We initiated. Well, thank you very much indeed, Madam Deputy Speaker, for the for the opportunity. Now, one of my the opportunity. Now, one of my tasks in the world of local government was to engage with that last Labour government. And as we saw the disastrous consequences of its overspending, they were completely clear with authorities completely clear with authorities like mine that stopped work on BSF because we were told by the Department for education that they Department for education that they did not have the money to see through the promises that they were making to the public.

I am very confident, very confident that my constituents understand the consequences that a Labour

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government has on their politics. I neighbour. He's very generous with his time

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He's very generous with his time and always have a lot of time for the right hon. Member. He's talking the right hon. Member. He's talking about our constituents in in Hillingdon. Is it not the case that the last Tory government's the last Tory government's financial settlement, which also included council tax, had a 7% cut to core spending power for our constituents in Hillingdon? And this spending settlement has almost a 40% increase in core spending power for our constituents. He seems rather depressed about this announcement.

Surely that is fantastic news for our constituents. And wouldn't he agree with me that

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thank God we've got a Labour government for Hillingdon? Madam Secretary, I appreciate

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Madam Secretary, I appreciate your notes rather more about Camden Council than he does about Hillingdon Council. But let us let Hillingdon Council. But let us let us reflect if we want to think about history, our our constituents about history, our our constituents last had a Labour council. Our, our constituents last had a Labour council. In 1998. I went to that council. In 1998. I went to that Budget meeting and which our constituents were faced with an 18.7% council tax rise, £60 million of unfunded savings by a Labour council.

I think they understand where their political priorities lie and who has their interests at heart. So I'm just going to make a little bit of progress. I know Madam Deputy Speaker will want others to have time. So, Madam Deputy Speaker, history is repeating itself. And let's not forget, this is a statement that leaves two thirds of councils in England worse off from the analysis that's been done by the Local Government Association. And that piles additional costs on top of things like last year's National Insurance contributions rise, which left councils £1.5 billion net worse off.

This is a statement which tightens ring fencing, so it removes the ability of local leaders to deploy, for example, homelessness funding flexibly to meet local needs. And it comes at a time when this botched reorganisation of local government has created chaos across the sector. A hokey cokey of elections promised, then cancelled, sometimes within 24 hours from that Dispatch Box. And

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above all, Madam Deputy Speaker, of course. Thank you, Madam Deputy Chair on Local Government Reorganisation, does my hon. Friend agree with me that one of the problems of the current process that is going current process that is going forward with this statement in mind is that there's been no direction on how the funding is going to work out. So actually, you've got some out. So actually, you've got some proposals on the table that would leave enormously vast rural communities in constituencies like communities in constituencies like mine, neighbouring town and urban centres that see it as an opportunity to get what they want.

And that actually, given this statement, it doesn't give those rural councils any confidence that

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they would get the money that they need. Once LGR has taken place. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Deputy. My hon. Friend draws Deputy. My hon. Friend draws attention to another significant issue facing local authorities, which is the level of uncertainty which is the level of uncertainty that money has been promised. Then withdrawn budgets have been allocated and then reduced. And in allocated and then reduced. And in that context, I'm sure her constituents will be as concerned as I am that so much of this money as I am that so much of this money is simply built into massive tax rises across the country.

And just turning briefly to business rates we know, including from the question from the member from Stourbridge, a PMQs, that the pressure is being acutely felt on our high streets, especially in hospitality and retail. A business owner in my constituency yesterday told me that across his food franchise, the business rates rise alone is an additional £100,000 a year. That's a lot of entry level jobs at risk. It's price rises for consumers, fuelling inflation. It's a barrier to investments in our high street and it is replicated across the country.

So let's not forget that under the previous government, one of the things we are most proud of is the 800 new jobs on average, created every single day that we were in office. Let us never cease to remind the benches opposite that every single month under this Labour government, unemployment has risen. This is a government, Madam Deputy Speaker, that clearly does not respect our local colleagues. It refers to leaders as mere community convenors. It seeks to reduce the level of discretion that our councillors have.

It creates uncertainty through a lack of clarity on reorganisation, on snd deficits, on whether mayoral elections are going ahead, and at a time when thousands of voters are being denied a say by this government through cancelling elections, a situation caused solely by the Secretary of State's abject failure to deliver the government's devolution plans to the proposed timetable. It is one thing, Madam Deputy Speaker, to cancel elections in a council that is about to be abolished, so voters can instead choose its replacement, very much another one to defer them indefinitely whilst we wait for him to get his act together.

Madam Deputy Speaker, our councils and our communities deserve a better statement than this. Let me conclude with some points, which I hope the Secretary of State or others will address in the summing up, because one of the things that is most striking about this statement is that the Secretary of State has come to the chamber and said, the key priority for this government is addressing poverty and deprivation, poverty and deprivation do not feature in this local government funding settlement. They are not part of this formula that the Secretary of State is asking us to agree at all.

But what is very striking is the thing that he says are important vulnerable children in education, cash flat, same as last year. Virtual schools, cash flat. The revenue support grant for local authorities is cash flat. Personal advisers to care leavers cash flat. Money for supporting local authorities with social care, which was specifically described as a priority cash flat. Bogof campaigns intended to reduce obesity in the public health environment, 50% reduction and even Awaabs law, which was championed at that Dispatch Box just a short time ago by the Minister for planning, sees a cut of £26,000 from its paltry beginnings.

So perhaps the Minister will reflect that what he's announcing essentially is a massive shift of funding away from the statutory duties of obligations that this Parliament has placed on our local authorities, and instead shifts it to those favoured political areas that it sees as its priority for the future.
15:44
Gareth Thomas Portrait Gareth Thomas MP (Harrow West, Labour )
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Yes, Gareth Thomas. Harrow Council was on the verge of bankruptcy until the substantial extra funding that Ministers announced in the local government settlement they were facing a Budget deficit. Council officers told the councillors of over £32 million and were planning to use virtually the whole of the council's reserves to fill that gap. If the settlement for Harrow had not been as generous as it was, they were even contemplating having to ask for exceptional financial support status.

So I in particular welcome the 31% increase in funding over this Parliament following the government's announcement in December for Harrow Council and for comparison, the last multi-year funding funding settlement under Theresa may and Boris Johnson for Harrow Council delivered just a 5% increase. So a 3,031% uplift over this parliament is a significant step forward. And Harrow certainly needs it because over the last four years, residents have become increasingly concerned about how the council has been managed. Council tax has increased by more than inflation every year.

Rents and service charges imposed by the Council of rocketed. Crucial parts of the council's responsibilities have been rated as inadequate and needing improvement. Basic critical services such as street cleaning have been cut to the bone and new housing to ease the housing and homelessness crisis has been stalled, delayed or just axed. So without that increase in funding, council officers have told senior councillors that Harrow would have been facing the need to approach. The Secretary of State are at risk of, or at risk of bankruptcy and needing exceptional financial support.

A combination of recent mismanagement of council finances and a decade of austerity has done considerable damage to our local public services in Harrow. Harrow remains, though, one of the lowest funded councils, both within London and nationally. And so I say gently to the Secretary of State, I hope he will understand when I say that I will continue to press for further funding to improve local services. It's worth underlying worth, underlining that between 2013 and 14 and 2223, the council saw cuts in its funding from the Tory and Lib Dem governments at a time of more than £50 million, a reduction of a shocking 97% in the revenue support grants.

One of the consequences of that level of austerity was vastly weakened public services locally.

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I tell him about austerity. I'm happy to give the hon. Gentleman a way into the debate, if Gentleman a way into the debate, if he would, if he would like, sir. But perhaps he might like to sit down and make a longer contribution later. No, I very.

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later. No, I very. Much know the one, the one thing the Secretary of State got right when he was wagging his finger. To when he was wagging his finger. To my left was the the implication on my left was the the implication on the Liberal Democrats. Danny Alexander was the chief Secretary to the Treasury. I was at the heart of that administration. He had to be restrained by George Osborne. So gung ho was he to make cuts. Personally, I'd have given him his head.

But don't let them escape.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I'm. Very happy to join him in

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Very happy to join him in condemning again the role the Liberal Democrats played. But if he was the same voice in the was the same voice in the government at the time, I hope he'll forgive me for being slightly even more concerned about what. even more concerned about what. Actually was going on at at the time. One of the understated time. One of the understated problems of the austerity that Harrow has suffered has been the decline in the quality of vital local services.

Children's services were rated inadequate by Ofsted just last, last, just last year, with eight areas identified for immediate improvement leadership stability, including management, oversight of staff and social workers in particular the quality of support, advice and guidance for care leavers. The quality of help for children who are homeless, the consistency and quality of response when care leavers go missing, the consistency of staffing to support children who were rated as needing to support children. All of those areas were rated as needing immediate improvement.

We're talking about some of the most vulnerable children in my community and across Harrow more generally, being let down by by Harrow Council two years beforehand, the conservative councillors who lead Harrow Council had driven through major cuts in children's services at the time over £2.5 million. Astonishingly, the current conservative leadership locally are proposing another round of major cuts to children's services. One particular case stands out from my constituency. Parents reported what looked like a significant bruising on of a child's footprint on their child at their nursery.

The matter was referred to social services. The parents were arrested and went to court and the child taken into emergency foster care. The case against the parents was rightly eventually dropped when the court accepted that the original bruising was caused by a child's foot, but in the meantime, during supervised contact arranged by Harrow Social Services, the parents found extensive injuries on the child, reported those to the social worker. There should have been a serious investigation at the time, given the scale of the of the injuries, there wasn't.

And in the nearly three years since, the council have struggled to get answers to their questions, and the parents inevitably remain profoundly affected by what has happened to their child and what has a family they have been put through. I wish I could say that was an isolated case. It isn't. And so whilst I welcome the additional funding that the council will will get and as a result will be able to put into social social care for young people. I do think there are other measures that I hope the Secretary of State will consider further down the line too.

But it isn't just children children's services that have been affected. The Care Quality Commission has also said that adult social care, run by Harrow Council requires improvement. That certainly didn't come as a huge surprise to many carers and elderly and other vulnerable adults in Harrow to the council, were ordered just last year to pay compensation to an elderly resident with dementia and her family, who needed medical help after she was neglected and let down by the care home in which she'd been placed in by Harrow Council.

Since 2022, Harrow Council has become the third most expensive council in London for council tax, behind Tory run Croydon and Liberal Democrat led Kingston upon Thames. Harrow's conservative councillors have put council tax up by the maximum possible every year they've been in power, and plan to continue doing so. A 20% rise in council tax since 2022. Despite their promises to freeze council tax council tenants to have been hit, with a maximum rent increases allowable in each of the past four years.

While leaseholders service charges have rocketed. Astonishingly, I will give way in a second. Astonishingly, some leaseholders in properties owned by Harrow Council are expecting to see their services charged by service charges rise by 70% this year. One family are currently paying £2,000 annually and have been sent a bill for £3,400 for next year. Those those rates are simply unacceptable in the midst of a cost of living crisis, and I hope

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the council will review them Gentleman. I'm grateful. To the hon. Member for giving

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To the hon. Member for giving way. Does he believe that people who promised not to raise council

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tax should not raise council tax? Well, I'm happy to say I think the conservative councillors in Harrow Council, who promised not to raise council tax and duly, duly did so. And I think I hope the hon. did so. And I think I hope the hon. Gentleman will join me in urging the shadow Secretary of State to ask, perhaps the leader of his Council to explain better to the people of Harrow why he reneged on his promise. But let me go on.

Regeneration should be an opportunity to build more affordable and social housing and as a result, to help tackle the housing crisis that we face in communities such as my own, it should surely involve local communities and be thought through to create opportunities for communities to come together and to provide for key local services. Instead. The completion of the redevelopment of the Grange Farm estate has been delayed multiple times. Again a product of lack of

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funding and poor leadership. Give way on that point. Yes. Thank you, Madam Speaker. My hon. Thank you, Madam Speaker. My hon. Friend is making an excellent point. I'm very sorry to hear about the challenges his residents have with their council. There are local their council. There are local authorities which are doing exactly the opposite in my area of Edinburgh. Council recently opened Edinburgh. Council recently opened 46 new council houses built on their own land, 46 new council houses as part of a programme to houses as part of a programme to build nearly 800.

So there are local authorities which are able to grip this and I'm very sad to hear about his situation, his council. Perhaps they could learn something from reading and other peers around the country. Well.

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Certainly I would welcome the chance of of news that conservative councillors in Harrow, responsible councillors in Harrow, responsible for housing were going to look at positive councils committed to positive councils committed to building more council homes, such as those in his constituency. But that failure does mean that residents have had to put up with mice, damp and substandard accommodation for too long on the accommodation for too long on the Grange Farm estate and on other regeneration schemes. In Will Stone, plans for affordable housing have been axed.

No new council housing that hadn't already been planned by the previous council has been built. A primary school that was due to be provided again has been axed locally to developers are not being held properly to account and a major opportunity to lift the quality of life in the borough has been missed. A consistent complaint I have heard, Madam Deputy Speaker, from constituents of mine, is that they find it very difficult to get to see anyone at the council that they don't know where to go, to meet council staff, to sort out problems and discuss issues in their neighbour in their neighbourhood.

Shortly after local, the local Conservative Party took over running Harrow Council, they closed Harrow Civic Centre. It was due to be replaced by a smaller set of council offices in Wealdstone, on what's currently the Peel Road car park. It would have given access for Harrow residents to council staff, and helped increase the number of people using businesses in the local high street. It would have freed up council owned land for much needed affordable housing for new workspaces, new retail and commercial spaces, as well as a new primary school, a new library, a new park for residents to enjoy and a new town square instead.

That civic centre remains closed, derelict, boarded up. Major decisions on regeneration have been delayed or cancelled. No new set of accessible council offices are planned and no one knows when or indeed really, if new promised housing will actually go ahead. Instead, local conservative councillors have spent thousands of pounds doing up their own council offices, yet members of the public are not allowed in. If you'll forgive me, I've given way to him once. I'll let him hope to catch them.

Madam Deputy Speakers, I and contribute later. The public will obviously get their say on the situation in Harrow in May, but I think the failures at Harrow Council do raise other questions, reversing the decade and more of austerity for local services is clearly a priority, and the settlement that was announced in December makes a good start in that objective. Harris certainly, Harrow certainly needs a serious examination of its funding formula going forward, but surely raising the quality of local services needs to be more than just the responsibility of local people.

In 2015, the parties opposite took the decision to abolish the Audit Commission, a body which usefully challenged councils much earlier on. Indeed, and helped prevent many poor management practices of the sort we are seeing on a regular

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basis in Harrow from being control. Thank you.

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Thank you. For giving way. I think he makes an excellent point. Rightly, this government is putting more money back into local government after back into local government after many, many years, long overdue. But that money has to be well spent. And the story that he's described in Harrow, unfortunately, is quite in Harrow, unfortunately, is quite similar to my experience and my residents experience in Hillingdon. The the independent auditors are The the independent auditors are quite damning about the council's budgeting approach.

Millions of pounds misallocated no opening and closing balances well into the financial year. And very recently it was reported by the press that the council, in a secret deal, had written off a former Tory councillors debt, all whilst applying for exceptional financial support from this government. So I completely agree with him. Don't we need more independent oversight and

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audit of local government finance? We certainly need more

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We certainly need more independent oversight of the way in which conservative councils in outer London are managing their finances. I'm completely with my finances. I'm completely with my hon. Friend on that score and the story of what has happened in Hillingdon, almost as bad as the Hillingdon, almost as bad as the situation that we're facing in Harrow over the last four years. The one bright spot has been the increase in finance at the Secretary of State has delivered for Harrow. We need a review of the funding formula for Harrow going going forward.

But I welcome the settlement that we have had and look forward to continuing to persuade him of the case for more funding in Harrow going forward.
15:59
Gideon Amos Portrait Gideon Amos MP (Taunton and Wellington, Liberal Democrat)
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The Liberal. >> The Liberal. >> Democrat spokesperson, Gideon Amos. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker,

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, Liberal Democrats, in our manifesto call for multi-year settlements for local government, for freeing of local government, for freeing of councils to generate more revenue, including from more council tax on second homes, increased planning fees and also called for an extra 2 billion on education, including special educational needs and disability. And it's right that funding for local government is rebuilt after the consequences of the 2008 crash and the famous letter left by the outgoing Labour government that they spent all the money and there was none left.

So moves forward in those areas I mentioned by this settlement are welcome. They're positive and we do welcome them. And the announcement that 90% of special educational needs disability service debts that councils have unavoidably built up will be met by. Central government also does begin to address the crisis in Southend. But I'm afraid, Madam Deputy Speaker, it doesn't finish the job. The promised land reforms have again been delayed and whatever the outcome of those reforms, they must not be a precursor to weakening the protection of disabled children rely on and their parents expect our five tests.

Our five tests would ensure that send reforms would guarantee children's rights, to send assessments, support our maintained and the voices of children and young people with Send and their families and carers must remain at the centre of the reform process. Secondly, the capacity and state special school provision must be increased alongside improvements to inclusive mainstream. Thirdly, that national government must top up funding for each child whose needs exceed the local authority provision within a given cap, and the government must get on and introduce a cap on the profits made from private sector companies.

Early intervention, fourthly, must be improved and waiting times cut. And lastly, schools must. Schools must be incentivised both to accept, send pupils and to train their staff. The additional funds for housing and homelessness were smaller also of course welcome and including for the Somerset Council in my own constituency. And whilst the extra funding coming through the recovery grant is also welcome, I know that places like Kingston upon Hull are telling us it doesn't go far enough and won't fill the gaping hole in financial stability that persists.

It's disappointing also that social housing does not get a mention in the settlement. We need a new generation of council and social rent homes. Our plans are 150,000 per year. Shelters are 90,000 per year. Both would be a good proposition. The government's proposed 18,000 per year just will not meet the level of need that's out there. Madam Deputy Speaker, the additional funding, along with provision for send deficits, does help enable councils like my own in Somerset to keep the council tax rise to 4.99% norm across the country and the cost of living crisis.

People cannot afford more than the minimum increase, something that Somerset MPs and the council pushed hard for. And I'm grateful to the local government Minister for meeting with us and engaging with us on that. It is notable that 70 out of the 74 Liberal Democrat led councils in the country have kept the council tax rise to the norm. Minimum of 4.99%, and of the four that are going exceptionally above that, they all inherited their previous conservative from their previous conservative administrations.

A council social care funding time bomb. And voters will take note that reform led Worcestershire are taking the increase in council tax to the highest level allowed in the country. Typically, they are not here to take part in the debate on local government finance. The message is clear reform, vote reform and pay more than anyone

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else in the country in your taxes. I will give that to my friend. Giving away. He's giving a powerful speech outlining how Liberal Democrat councils up and down the country are doing their best in this cost of living crisis. best in this cost of living crisis. Oxfordshire finds itself in a £24 million deficit as a result of this settlement. Meanwhile, we are settlement. Meanwhile, we are getting residents on doors saying, what about my potholes? And he's right to point out that social care right to point out that social care is part of that democratic deficit.

Does he agree with me that we need to tackle the core issues here? And

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one of those is to sort out social care, because that helps everything to do with local government finance. My hon. Friend is absolutely

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My hon. Friend is absolutely right. And conservative members have a central position asking who runs the council? But I use the runs the council? But I use the inherited time bomb word. I use it advisedly. The well, the well advisedly. The well, the well respected conservative former leader of Somerset County Council, David Fothergill, was one of the first in the country to identify first in the country to identify this. He told Panorama back in 2019 that adult social care was a time bomb, which is ticking.

That time bomb. Madam Deputy Speaker has now gone off around the country. Council taxpayers are having to bail out a broken social care system. My right hon. Friend.

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I'd like to thank my right hon. Friend for giving way for Torbay

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Friend for giving way for Torbay Council, which I also still serve on. There are unreasonable, well, on. There are unreasonable, well, incredible assumptions being made about the levels of council tax being collected. This result in, being collected. This result in, for a small unitary authority, a deficit of £13 million in year two deficit of £13 million in year two and three. Does my right hon. Friend agree with me that the Labour Party will be learning from the Conservatives that they are planning to balance the books of councils on the backs of local taxpayers?

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I certainly agree, my hon. Friend who's championing Torbay on a regular basis in the chamber, a regular basis in the chamber, that councils are suffering reductions in their funding settlement across the country, and settlement across the country, and that's one of the reasons we can't support this in the amount of support they're getting from

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central government. Yes. Look, again, there's a memory. Loss going on over there, isn't

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Loss going on over there, isn't there? Yeah. The coalition, we had the biggest cuts to local government funding and the start of passing funding responsibilities over to the council tax system that began with the Lib Dems in coalition. Yeah. Why doesn't the hon. Gentleman apologise to this chamber and to people up and down

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the country for what the Lib Dems government? It's a responsibility. The hon. Member Sheffield South

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The hon. Member Sheffield South East is is right that there were massive savings made after the massive savings made after the financial crash in 2008 and some would say around £40 billion over the years of the coalition. He the years of the coalition. He would be horrified to learn that the only people suggesting greater cuts than 41 billion were the cuts than 41 billion were the Labour Party. In their 2010 manifesto, proposed £56 billion of cuts. He doesn't believe me.

If he doesn't believe me. I look at look at the headlines at the time, Alistair Darling, we will cut deeper than Margaret Thatcher, said Alistair Darling in 2010, in his Budget. Who began austerity, who began the cuts? It was under the Labour government and they were planning to go further, faster and deeper, according to Alistair Darling, than the Liberal Democrats

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or the coalition did. And I'll give way to the hon. Gentleman on my right. I just wanted to ask the hon.

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I just wanted to ask the hon. Gentleman, does he agree with the words of the Labour leader of Sheffield, who says that cost pressures continue to outstrip pressures continue to outstrip increases in funding both specific inflationary pressures in major service areas, particularly for care, accommodation and construction, and the increasing volume of demand for housing and care. Is the Labour leader of

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Sheffield correct? I hesitate to get too involved in the politics of Sheffield, but I'm concerned that what we are seeing is, is government funding for councils across the country being reduced, and particularly, if I may go on to the case of rural authorities who are particularly hard hit by this settlement, they find delivering social care and other services far more costly than tightly drawn urban areas. Somerset's 4000 mile road network, for example, is a massively more onerous proposition than a tightly drawn urban area.

It's inexplicable that, despite consultation that considered maintaining the remoteness, funding uplift across the country and across all funding heads of local government, it's been taken away from all funding heads apart from adult social care. Why is it less costly to provide children's services than it is adult services in a remote rural area? Why is it less costly to provide flood relief and flood protection in a rural area than for than it is to provide services to adults? A whole range of really remote authorities are affected to Westmorland and Furness, Somerset, Devon, Cornwall all are particularly badly hit.

Remote authorities have much greater areas to protect from flooding as well as I say, and I have to tell the Minister that having spent yesterday and and recent days with families in Stathe and Boroughbridge, my constituency on the Somerset levels, I've seen how heart rending it is for them as they watch the water coming closer and closer to their homes. 200m when you go to bed, when you see the water 200m away can be only 20m. When you wake up the next morning and look out your window.

For some houses I visited, the water is lapping up against the houses themselves, and when Conservative Prime Minister David Cameron came down last time we had severe flooding in 20 1314. He promised to Somerset money would be no object. It turned out he meant that Somerset residents money would be no object, because Somerset's New Rivers Authority became the only one in the country not to be funded by central government and to rely on local taxpayers. The flooding Minister came down Somerset yesterday and said that Somerset will not be forgotten.

So I'd like to ask the government, local government Minister, what extra support the Minister is providing to Somerset Council to deal with the flooding. Major incident one which could easily become a national emergency if effective measures are not taken now. And I mean in the next few days, the water levels are still rising. Minister. And finally, Madam Deputy Speaker, we need we need an end to the massive expense of all this top down, costly reorganisation of local government where people don't want it, forcing change on the structures of natural communities.

People know and love can only distract from the work. That important work reducing flooding, delivering care and all the other priorities that councils put first. No one I've met in Taunton and Wellington or Somerset, or on the levels told me what they really want to see is a metro style mayor come down the road for that area. Spending almost half a billion on mayors. Is that really going to help any of our constituencies in ways that known, understood and strengthened local councils would do well? We welcome the limited extra funding.

This government leaves too many questions unanswered on how costs will be met. It is still going to lead to big cuts in services for rural and remote authorities, and on social care. It leaves council taxpayers bailing out a broken system. For all these reasons, we cannot at this stage support this settlement.
16:10
Florence Eshalomi Portrait Florence Eshalomi MP (Vauxhall and Camberwell Green, Labour )
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Chair of the Select Committee, Florence Eshalomi. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I thank the Deputy Speaker, and I thank the Secretary of State, who's not in his place for opening this debate on the settlement. I know the work that he has led on. And the that he has led on. And the Minister who is here in terms of bringing forward this statement and being strong voices for our local government colleagues. And I should declare that obviously, the Secretary of State and I served both at Lambeth Council and the Minister served as a councillor in Southwark, in one of my neighbouring boroughs, and also to pay tribute to the former Minister, the Member for Oldham West, Chadderton and Royton for the work that he did with many councils.

In terms of making sure we are at this place, I know that many local authorities across England will be delighted to see that the government is covering the 90% of debts built up through supporting children with special educational needs and disabilities. This is an issue that comes into all our inboxes, regardless of which councils that political lead. It's a big issue that's been ongoing for many councils. And and it's about how we continue to support some of the most vulnerable children who need to ensure that councils are adequately funded in terms of those areas.

And, if we're honest, Madam Deputy Speaker, these costs are not of the council's making. But if you know the shadow secretary straight highlighted, it is as a result of the broken system which finally this government is addressing and I hope the government will continue to address in the upcoming schools White paper. Madam Deputy Speaker, one of the first things that everyone across local government asks for is certainty from the government certainty so that authorities can make the long term investment in the infrastructure, certainty that they can have the funding to build the homes that we need, certainty that they can start turning around.

I know members don't like to hear it, but the 14 years of underinvestment in local government, the underinvestment in said the underinvestment in temporary accommodation, the underinvestment in adult social care. So we should all welcome the first multi-year settlement in a decade, ending that year on year waiting game that held back that investment for too long. And this is something that's been called for, not just by the current housing Communities and Local Government Select committee that I chaired, but also the predecessor committee chaired by my my wonderful colleague, the Member for Sheffield South East.

And it's good to see that this government is finally listening on that. So we do welcome a reduction in the number of grants where you see a situation where we are asking our cash strapped councils to continue to bid for small pots of money. That's officer time taken away from frontline services, bidding for those pots where in some cases they may not even be successful. That is not a good use of vital officer's time. And it's a case of, you know, in some cases those councils had to justify submitting those bids in the first place.

So we really do welcome this really crucial area. But there are two areas that I want to focus on in the short time that I have. One is around the fact that many members and other members have already raised it this afternoon. The reality is, even with this funding welcomed funding, a number of councils are still going to face budgetary issues. The Local Government Association anticipates that a number more councils may be applying for exceptional financial support. We have to ask ourselves when you see more councils applying for that emergency funding, there is nothing exceptional about it.

We cannot have a situation where councils are having to rely on emergency funding so that they can carry out day to day services, and they don't effectively declare bankruptcy. So I hope that the government will be looking at this

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area going forward. It was I will give way to my colleague. Thank you. Madam Deputy Speaker. I want to thank my hon. The hon. Friend, for giving way. I agree with what she's saying. I'm very concerned that the government's concerned that the government's support package for councils like Woking Borough Council, which went into effect effectively bankrupt several years ago following conservative mismanagement, is by allowing them to borrow more money to pay off the government loans. to pay off the government loans.

Does he agree that EFS needs to change immediately?

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I thank the hon. Member, an excellent colleague on the on our cross-party select committee, and I cross-party select committee, and I think this is an area that we did look at on the Select Committee with our report in terms of local government finance and our committee. He will remember, quote, stated that we have to look at the stated that we have to look at the capital as a capitalisation direction and the stopgap measures direction and the stopgap measures that avoid section 114 notices that allow councils to produce short term balanced budgets that can weaken councils finances and capital investments in the long term.

So there is an issue. We cannot keep burying this issue under the carpet and thinking that it's going to go away. It is not in the long term. We are building more debts for these councils and we have to look at how we address that. So I am pleased that this is something that the government are going to be looking at and making sure councils that are applying for ESF, we're having a wholescale root and branch review of how that money is being allocated.

Madam Deputy Speaker, we know that this multi-year funding and and process won't solve the underlying issues facing all our councils and another area which the Minister knows that I've mentioned on many occasions, and there is growing cross-party support on this, is that at the heart of this? There's the reliance on the most regressive form of taxation to pay for those mandatory demand led services, where councils, in effect, have little control over that demand. Council tax, as we know, amounts to about half of the settlement total.

And it also assumes the maximum increase across the board, despite the fact that the government has little control on how that how much that figure will actually be. And the Secretary of State highlighted that in boroughs where the referendum principle will be lifted, the government is assuming that increasing council tax will help with some councils having to increase their council tax by over 30% just to reach the core spending powers. And the figures in the settlement. And, Madam Deputy Speaker, I think all of us understand the challenges the governments face and when it comes to balancing the books and the inheritance which they were left with, followed by the 14 years, and they are difficult decisions that we have to make.

But equally, I want to go back to one of our evidence sessions when the former member, the Member for Oldham West, told our committee and I quote, that there is a real danger to the democratic process if there is not a link between the tax that people are paying for services and the quality of services they are

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getting in return. Not. On exactly this point about the Democratic point.

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Democratic point. Is that in Worcestershire, we were sort of my constituents were were sort of my constituents were promised by the reform candidates that they would keep they would actually cut council tax. It's a shame that not a single reform shame that not a single reform member of Parliament has turned up to defend what they've done, but the council tax is going up. the council tax is going up. Council Council is going by 9%. But the warring point is that we're being denied a referendum because it goes above the 5% threshold, and that that bit of the of the democratic process has been removed from Worcestershire.



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Yeah, yeah. I thank the hon. Member for that intervention. And I agree, I think intervention. And I agree, I think many residents who are feeling the pinch who are saying, in essence, yes, we've seen fantastic yes, we've seen fantastic initiatives, new legislation come through from this government, but that's not trickling down quickly enough. Many residents will be enough. Many residents will be seeing their council tax bills in the next few months, and for a number of residents, those bills number of residents, those bills will be going up.

So I think it is important that we look at that link and that democratic link because we

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have a. Chairman of the Committee.

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Chairman of the Committee. For giving way a. £200,000 house in the East Riding of Yorkshire, depending on its 91 valuation, we depending on its 91 valuation, we will be paying between 3 and £4000 in council tax, a £200,000 house, a £2 million flat in Westminster will be paying £2,000. There's an be paying £2,000. There's an opportunity to put that right and I know she's from London, Secretary of State from London. It feels a lot of us out in the provinces, like everybody in charge is from London.

That is so egregious and wrong. And does this does the chairman of the committee not agree that something needs to be done about it? We didn't do it in our years in office, and the government

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said they would have a fairer system. Now. It's not fair. Florence Eshalomi I thank the right hon. Member for that intervention. I think it's fair to say successive governments have put the issue of council tax in the too the issue of council tax in the too difficult box, and it will. I'm hoping that will fall on this government to finally address that

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government to finally address that and make sure that we bring an end at. That point with the hon. Member.

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That point with the hon. Member. Give way. I'll give you I thank the hon. Member, my hon. Friend, for giving way. Would she agree with me that the work that has been done on the draft local government settlement to get us to this final local government settlement, has actively put the principles of fairer funding into place. My local authority in Samuel, the fifth most deprived local authority in the country, is getting an extra £28 million as a result of the continuation and the increase of the recovery grant.

That money will go on crucial services that we were deprived of in my area during 14 years of conservative austerity. I know my hon. Friend will want to join with me in welcoming the work that has been done by the local government Minister, by our friends in the Treasury, to make sure that the principles of fairer funding

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Eshalomi. I thank my hon. Friend, who's a doughty champion for her constituency and her council's constituency and her council's needs, and I think it's fair to say that the outdated and opaque that the outdated and opaque previous funding settlement caused a number of issues for councils up and down the country, and it's and down the country, and it's finally good to see this government responding to that and making sure we have a fairer settlement and we have a fairer settlement and more simplified settlement so that our councils can get on with the day job of providing those vital services for our residents.

And just to wrap up, Madam Deputy Speaker, going back to the issue of council tax, we have a situation where we have to be honest and ask that if councils have to impose a council tax hike just to fulfil mandatory services. Going back to the question and the hon. Member raised, where is that democratic choice for residents if council tax is collected locally, how can it be right that what it is largely spent on is dictated by central government? And we know from the settlement today that the Secretary of State and the Minister have shown a boldness in making sure they continue to engage with local leaders, they continue to engage with the local government association, they continue to engage with cross-party colleagues and cross-party councils to get to grips with the day to day issues facing local government.

But I urge the Minister that they need to continue on this road of being bold. They need to continue working, especially with Treasury colleagues, to properly address the growing demand on the mandatory cost that councils are facing from adult social care temporary accommodation. These will continue to grow no matter how much money the government puts into these core services. There is a real need for a fundamental review of council tax and wider council funding. I urge the government to go further in bringing cross-party consensus on this, and to truly reform council tax and bring an end to this regressive form of taxation once and for all.
16:22
James Wild Portrait James Wild MP (North West Norfolk, Conservative)
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Amen. >> Thank you very. >> Much, Madam Deputy Speaker. This settlement is supposed to deliver fair funding. That's what the fair funding. That's what the formula says on the tin. But it fails the Ronseal test for Norfolk, its core spending power in the first year of the settlement is lower than the national average. And the largest increases in core spending power are going to urban authorities. This simply fails to recognise the need of large rural counties such as Norfolk.

The county council network assessment is that rural county and unitaries face the highest pressures, collectively amounting to £7 billion of costs by 2029. Give way to the

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hon. Lady. I thank the. Hon. Gentleman. For giving way and I appreciate

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For giving way and I appreciate the concerns raised, but as a member in a constituency that is in outer London that have a very long has been deemed as having the inner has been deemed as having the inner London support for finance, but actually having inner London problems and outer London Borough where it is not particularly leafy, where it is not particularly leafy, where deprivation is tough and taking a massive toll on our councils. Can he understand that? Addressing those things, addressing deprivation, addressing the costs of housing, addressing things like temporary accommodation are crucial

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for places like mine? Absolutely James Wild. Indeed, I'm sure the hon. Lady, if she catches your eye, Madam if she catches your eye, Madam Deputy Speaker will elaborate on that. My point is about coming on to the point about remoteness. I to the point about remoteness. I think this is perhaps the kernel of the unfairness is the lack of recognition of remoteness and its recognition of remoteness and its impact beyond the adjustment for adult social care. It's been removed from most of the formula, removed from most of the formula, and this is a serious cost pressure.

I won't give way. There's lots of people want to speak. This is a serious cost pressure on rural authorities, which the government has chosen to ignore. Of course, this is compounded by the removal of the Rural Service Delivery grant in 2025. Its removal meant the loss of funding that was specifically put in place to recognise the high cost of rural service delivery, and this is a political choice made by a very political Secretary of State, and people in Norfolk can see in plain sight how this government views rural areas coming after the farm tax, after lower bus funding than the last government put in place.

Scrapping road and rail schemes in our area. I asked the Minister who's not in her place. I hope the whip on the bench will make a note of why did Ministers reject the evidence that Norfolk and other rural authorities put in about the additional costs that they face and the importance of remoteness? And after remoteness, there is the recovery grant supposed to be a one off formula intended to give local authorities the funding that they need, and then the formula is meant to replace it.

But actually the government has decided to continue it for the next three years. But no funding for Norfolk County Council, despite the allocation and the additional element in the final settlement supposedly being targeted at upper tier authorities. Apparently it seems only if you're a Labour upper tier authority. Little wonder that the Institute for Fiscal Studies said maintaining allocations of recovery grant does not look like a principled decision. I think that says it all. It's designed to shovel funding to Labour councils.

And let's be clear, this is about shifting resources

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away from rural areas to unitaries. Yeah. giving. Way and declare my interest as a Central Bedfordshire councillor? Central Bedfordshire is going to have to find £17 million off the have to find £17 million off the back of this so-called fairer funding formula. Does my friend agree with me that this is nothing

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short of pork barrel politics? Yeah, James Wild. I do agree with that. And the figures simply bear that out. And figures simply bear that out. And as a result of the settlement, it's probably the same for my hon. Friend's constituency. It's council tax payers in Norfolk who are going to bear the brunt of this through much higher council tax and maximum tax. Council tax increases are assumed for the full three years of the settlement. I want to touch on the topic of internal drainage boards, which, Madam Deputy Speaker, you'll know are responsible for managing water levels and reducing flood risk.

And they play a vital national role in protecting key areas, including prime agricultural land, so important for our food security. Yet the cost of idbs falls on local council tax payers in the borough of King's Lynn and West Norfolk, 40% of the council tax raised by the council goes to IDB. Levies costs that other authorities do not face, and given the nationally important role, the funding should reflect that and there has been additional support introduced by the last conservative government and continued by this government.

But this government is not uprating that with inflation, taking account of the higher energy costs Idbs are paying either. And if that support, we don't know if that's going to continue into the future years. And if it doesn't, will the Minister commit to working with groups of local authorities? District authorities set up precisely to find an equitable solution to that? And of course, Norfolk is losing out yet further, due to the Labour government's decision to cancel the Norfolk and Suffolk mayoral election as well as the county council election.

Two political choices I fundamentally disagree with and my constituents were due and those in Suffolk were due to get an annual investment fund of £37.4 million a year. But not only are our elections scrapped, the government has cut the amount of that investment fund that Norfolk will get. We are going to lose out on £48 million in the next two years. Why? Because of decisions taken by these Ministers. Another sign of the neglect that this government has for the people of Norfolk.

To conclude, Madam Deputy Speaker, I do welcome the announcements on the Send deficits. But overall, it's clear this is not a fair funding settlement. There's an overreliance on council tax increases for my constituents, no recognition of the true costs that rural authorities play and ministerial decisions locking in inequalities for years to come. And the Ministers and the government should think again.
16:29
Marie Rimmer Portrait Ms Marie Rimmer MP (St Helens South and Whiston, Labour)
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Yeah, Marie Rimmer. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Like in my Madam Deputy Speaker. Like in my constituency in St Helens North, Worcester is tough for many families. Too many live with the families. Too many live with the daily consequences of poverty, ill health and security, many vulnerable. The impact can be soul destroying. Average life expectancy in my constituency is 50, in Knowsley and I'm sure my hon. Friend here from Knowsley, whose whole constituencies in Knowsley. I wish to pay tribute to her for the run that she made at Christmas time, and she was the one that really started our campaign.

And I paid tribute to you and the life expectancy in Knowsley is 50. Saint Helens, which is most of my constituency, is 57. Both the men and women. The call for significant healthcare and support is tremendous and starts much earlier. It was a shock when I saw those figures. When I read them in Saint Helens, health and social care is integrated and that has helped helped with the demands that increasingly many children do not benefit from the dancing classes.

Gymnastics, excitement, trips out or holidays. Many, sadly, are lured to county lines and drug taking. Many of our children need special education provision. Some wait for special, unique service. The cost can be enormous and provision and very often not local. These children lose out on out there. Families watch and worry whilst waiting for the solution to arrive. Revenue support grant was always complex, mysterious, hard to nail down. Added to this, 14 years of austerity didn't help.

St Helens North lost £127 million. We were capped in poll tax. We'd only put the rates up 2%. I was the leader at the time, but we was one of 21 that was capped. We had to deliver over 10 million overnight or we would have been surcharged. You had three months to deliver a newborn. We were very poor in Saint Helens. Our councils are struggling. Our councils are struggling to meet statutory responsibility in social care, SEND provision not because of inefficiency in the councils, because families does not.

Funding, does not bears no resemblance to the actual on the ground people and the in the the lives that they have to put up with ever growing numbers with complex needs, higher costs, lack of provision. Two thirds of Saint Helens councils funding is spend on adult social care and children two thirds, and we lost £127 million from government. I think it's about, I don't know, 9 or 11 million left. That's what we have. I want to say when I saw the the need for this, the settlement that addresses the real pressures we need, that I've always said that health, disabled carers.

Tension. Safeguarding, protecting the vulnerable, the aged and abused children need due to the council gets money from income from the government, very little now it's all fallen on Redditch Council tax, falling on the council tax, more and more efficiency. You couldn't get more efficient councils and Knowsley and St Helens North. Yeah, I reckon I'll go to the Knowsley meetings. I go to Saint Helens. I've been a councillor in challenge for 39 years and I praise where I see Knowsley because it's just so efficient, so focussed on the people, not the people that working inside the good employers, but on the people and how we can and serve for them.

Due to the deprivation of our area, the lack of assets that can be sold that other councils have, we can't. We can only raise a fraction of councils in the south east London and the cities due. So there's very much we can get from that. So it's all revenue. It's all on the council tax and our ability to be more efficient, look for different ways and everything. It's ingenious to watch what does happen. The second we were first presented with would have brought in what we were consulted on seemed fair and good.

And I have to say, when it came out like provisional announcement just before Christmas, I was horrified, I was horrified housing had been introduced, housing into the IMD index. Multiple deprivation is that we're not suffering from that deprivation in Aylesbury and St Helens North. I'm not saying that it shouldn't be there, but certainly not with the weighting that it's got, because that's where our money went. We went down from the first thing that we were consulted on like that we would have been in since Helens would have been high and dry.

I'm not going to the details. My hon. Friend here. I got the figures from Knowsley. I got the same figures from Knowsley. What impact it was going to be. A new Saint Helens would be back, but couldn't get the figures. And my friend, my friend here went off and started the work and we did what we could to. We got things going and more. So it's although it's called fair funding, it isn't fair funding because we're all different.

You know, I listen to what you're saying about people living in the rural districts. I have sympathy for you. And we need to have a system that really does look at what costs are the highest, what's needed. But no one can criticise, no one can criticise the people that have got this extra funding now, but it's not there forever. The settlement, following the sustained lobbying we have got, we've got 90% of our high needs deficit. High needs deficit is the deficit.

We've got on SEND provision and knows this is tremendous, far, much greater than St Albans. So that will help. That does help. And we the it's just wonderful what goes on the recovery grant. We will get 14.7 million over the three years. But that doesn't resolve the problem because it's not part of the formula. And we will have to we will have to commence straight away to look at what we're going to do, because we would have been much worse off than we were already before it.

So that's just one council and I know there'll be others like that. So we do need to look at that thing. But I would pay tribute to the work that has gone on by the Ministers. It's been the local authorities, the work in the in the chambers of the finance departments, the work, the MPs, the work councils have done and the work that the Ministers have done. It can't have been pleasant for them to see what they saw. And I know that, having looked at it, they've recognised things that we will need to look at this for funding the future.

But I do thank sincerely all those who's been involved in coming to some help for some of the worst affected boroughs in the country. It's not been party political, I can assure you. With that. We don't think like that, I certainly don't, and I know this lady doesn't know this gentleman. He's here. Our benches are full of council leaders, and from our former council leaders, we've got more years of that. I've been in local government and and this for 48 years and know what I'm talking about.

But I see what I'm talking about. It's not made up. So I will be supporting this tonight. But it doesn't mean the end of the lobbying. We will obviously start again. And I'm sure the Ministers will listen to what other people said. And maybe there does there does need to be blacks in here and blacks in there. But we need to recognise each area and what the needs are. We can't leave them to deprivation and deny their needs. Thank you Manuela Perteghella.
16:38
Manuela Perteghella Portrait Manuela Perteghella MP (Stratford-on-Avon, Liberal Democrat)
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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I am incredibly proud to have and I am incredibly proud to have been a councillor until last year because local government is the because local government is the foundation of so much that matters in people's daily lives. It keeps our streets clean, supports our streets clean, supports vulnerable families, funds social care, maintains roads, protects our environment and makes sure children can get to school safely, keeps our bins emptied and not everywhere, but keeps our potholes, potholes filled.

And when councils are stretched to breaking point, it is residents who feel the strain. I welcome the move to a multi-year settlement, which is something we we have long argued for. Councils need certainty. They need to plan beyond the single financial year and that stability matters. But let us be clear a longer settlement does not in itself fix a broken system. The Public Accounts Committee has warned that this could reach nearly 4 billion a year by 2027 to 28, and that is not sustainable.

And on top of that, we now have rising demand. Inflationary pressures, increases in the national living wage and the hike in National insurance contributions. And councils are expected to absorb all of this further, making any material changes. And for example, in the level in the assumption or level of busyness, rates pooling and effectively reducing councils funding allocation between the provisional and final settlement will cause a serious challenges for many councils, including Stratford on Avon District Council, which could see a big cut to 5% or more of the council's total spending power.

So if I heard correctly, the Secretary of State pledged to refund those councils affected by this material change. And I would like the government benches to confirm that our constituents are the ones who are going to be impacted and the provision of local or valuable local services will be affected. I am deeply concerned about the impact on rural areas like mine in Stratford-on-Avon. The shift to a need and demand model risks overlooking the real costs of delivering services across large, sparsely populated areas.

Rural councils often receive less grant funding yet face higher transport costs, greater recruitment challenges and weaker public transport networks. That reality must be properly recognised in any fair funding formula. In my own constituency, I see the pressures on local government every day. Stratford-on-Avon District Council, led by the Liberal Democrats, has shown what responsible local leadership looks like even in tough times. It has delivered the third highest recycling rate in England. It has rolled out natural flood management.

It has installed solar panels on leisure centres to cut running costs and reduce emissions. It has allocated 600,000 to a Cost of living mitigation fund to support our most vulnerable families. That is practical, sensible, community focussed governance. That is what can be achieved when councils are run competently and with a clear sense of purpose. Contrast that with the chaos we have seen at County Council, now run by reform. Last week, after a gruelling ten hour meeting, the Minority Reform administration failed to pass a Budget.

The Liberal Democrats put forward an alternative that would have invested £20 million in tackling child poverty, protecting youth services, improving home to school transport and investing in infrastructure for the future. For an extra 39 a week, we could have protected services for thousands of young people and vulnerable residents. Instead, reform doubled down on cuts that would families hard, including changes that could leave children Woking up to five miles to school, often along unlit rural roads. Reform and the Conservatives combined to block that investment, and then still could not agree a Budget of their own, leaving the council in limbo.

The story reform stitch up is costing residents in Stratford-on-Avon and across Warwickshire as we look ahead to local government reorganisation in Warwickshire, these choices matter even more. Stratford-on-Avon

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District Council has made yes, I will. I thank the hon. Member for giving way, and I'd like to touch giving way, and I'd like to touch on the point about reform councils and the the promises that they made and the reality of that in Lancashire. They're trying to Lancashire. They're trying to balance the books by closing initially consulting on closing ten care homes and day centres, care homes and day centres, narrowing that down now to just the day centres. And would the hon.

Member be as surprised as me to see them not here to defend their record of what they promised versus the reality of a reform led council?

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Exactly. The hon. Member for his intervention? Yes. I mean, the Reform benches are empty, as we all Reform benches are empty, as we all can see, as the British public can see. And this is really important see. And this is really important because and this is important because, because as I said, local because, because as I said, local government is the foundation of our places. Is, is, you know, they they places. Is, is, you know, they they give us the civic pride in our areas.

They they really are the front line of delivering services. And it's and it's really disappointing. And, and, and there is chaos in Warwickshire. We are still without a Budget. And as we look ahead to local government reorganisation, these choices, as I was saying, matter even more. Stratford-on-Avon District Council has made a clear case for a South Warwickshire unitary that reflects a real communities and keeps decision making closer to residents. Reform are pushing for a single county wide super authority that would centralise power and move it farther away from local people.

At a time when trust in politics is fragile, we should be strengthening local democracy, not weakening it. We must keep local government local. Madam Deputy Speaker, local authorities are ready to play their part in delivering growth, tackling the climate emergency, insulating homes, improving air quality, building the infrastructure our communities need but they cannot do so if they're permanently, permanently fire fighting. If we are serious about strong communities and a strong economy, we must get local government finance right and not defund rural councils.

We need to support them so that they can deliver for the residents, rather than leaving them to pick up the pieces of national Betts.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Mr. Speaker, first of all, can I congratulate my right hon. Friend, congratulate my right hon. Friend, the Secretary of State and my friend, the local government Minister, for this settlement. It's Minister, for this settlement. It's a welcome change. I also thank the minister's predecessor, the right minister's predecessor, the right hon. Member for Oldham, for the work he did both in opposition and then in government, to get us to then in government, to get us to this better place, to say, I'm now chair of the Public Accounts Committee.

And we did a report about local government funding
16:46
Clive Betts Portrait Mr Clive Betts MP (Sheffield South East, Labour)
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recently, just to read what the conclusions were. Cross-party local government finance is in a perilous government finance is in a perilous state. The funding has not kept pace with population growth, demand pace with population growth, demand for services, complexity of need or the rising costs of delivering services as demand for targeted services such as social care, special education needs and temporary accommodation has grown, there has been a significant there has been a significant reduction in spending on commonly used discretionary services such as street cleaning, lighting, parks and gardens and leisure services.

That's the truth that councils up and down the country have known and experienced and had to deal with over many, many years. And I would at this point to congratulate councillors in of all parties, in all councils across the country for how they perform during the years of austerity, how they've continued to work and deliver efficiencies, which perhaps some central government departments, as a PSC can testify, would do well to emulate, of course. Mike Wood. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

I thank the Secretary of State and

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his ministerial team for. Listening to my representations and those of my Council and my and those of my Council and my experience, to be fair, of of Tory Secretary of State listening, let Secretary of State listening, let alone acting, is about as rare as rocking horse dung. Frankly, would my hon. Friend agree with me that the party opposite, who didn't fund local government properly for 14 local government properly for 14 years, and now the ones who are complaining and whingeing about the position we're in, isn't that their responsibility? Not this absolutely.



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And I think that goes for both parties opposite as well as my hon. parties opposite as well as my hon. Friend would understand the situation that this government has faced is clearly a serious one. faced is clearly a serious one. Let's say they've got some things very right indeed. First of all, the multi-year settlement, which I think has been called for cross-party, certainly select committee over many years, and the Select committee now has called for Select committee now has called for it.

And it's good that we have one. It gives that degree of certainty for local councils to look at the future and be able to plan ahead, fair funding now, fair funding is always a subjective term for what on one side is fair funding. The other side will say isn't. But I just point out to the opposition that I think it was a great clerk who was the Secretary of State for CLG at the time, ten years ago, promised a fair funding review by the then government, was still waiting for it in 2024.

So they had their chance and they didn't do it. We've now got a review to deal with, simple matters that some of the figures, some of the data in the funding settlement were 20 years

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old and more you. Yes. Natasha Irons. I thank my hon. Friend for giving way on that point. And again, giving way on that point. And again, I'd like to join colleagues in thanking the Secretary of State and the Minister for their work on this. Because when you're talking about Because when you're talking about outdated data, places like Croydon East in my constituency were East in my constituency were treated like we had an endless pot of cash as an outer London borough, and that we were endlessly wealthy when actually the pockets of deprivation in my constituency are some of the highest in the country.

And this funding formula seeks to address that. So would you agree with me that this new, fresh approach, an end to Tory austerity is exactly what our councils need?

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I certainly do, and as an expert, I was going to make then the funding settlement deprivation is properly recognised because that's the problem. The councils who've the problem. The councils who've got deprivation, either in total or in part over many years, have taken the burden of the cuts. What happened under the previous government, both the coalition and the Conservatives, was that those councils were the greatest need, which previously had had the largest grants to reflect those needs, then had the biggest cuts.

That's what happened. And what this funding settlement does is to give the biggest increases to those councils, which previously had the biggest cuts under the last government. You know, we're getting some restoration for the funding reductions that previously we suffered. The recovery grant is right because councils need recovery where they've been, had their funding base decimated simply because they've had the grants that were previously needed taken away from them. My one challenge, I think, to my right hon.

Friend the Minister, is that the recovery grant lasts, I think, for three years in 2029, there is a danger of a cliff edge where suddenly those councils who get it now could suddenly lose it. So I think there is an issue there that thinking ahead, as the Minister obviously trying to do for it to change from previous Ministers, let's start to think about that problem before it comes and hits us. So I welcome that the settlement from Sheffield's point of view, I think the comments made by the leader of the council, which actually is a cross-party council, the leader of the council, were about the concerns and challenges the council had faced prior to this funding settlement.

I just read out what the finance director of Sheffield Council said about the settlement. The figures announced in the settlement back up the government's commitment to redressing the unequal cuts seen during the austerity years of the previous government and its aim to deliver more funding to the deprived areas of the country. I think that's a that's a fair statement from the council officer in Sheffield, responsible for the council's finances. So Sheffield's got about 55 billion more than was anticipated under the previous proposals in this funding settlement over three years.

That just sort of feels the hole that we've been making cuts in in the past in essential services. It means the first time in 15 years we've had to start, we can start a Budget process without immediately looking at cuts in essential services. The first time in 15 years, one year after another of cuts. That's been the situation, and we've now got a situation where the Budget can be balanced without those cuts. That's a real fundamental change and start to look at maybe some improvements, some preventative measures for the future, which bring about the sort of change we all want to see.

Well done to the government for getting us to that position. Another well done dealing with the ring fences, not just ring fences in the Minister's own department, but across government, whether it be transport or health or education. The ring fences all round which restrict local councils ability to do the right thing for their communities. So it's good that the government's moved in that direction. I know the select committee now and previous select committee has called for that, and the government have really been listening to that.

To be fair, under the Secretary of State, Michael Gove, was there there were was an agreement that that needed to happen, but not much evidence that it did happen. So I think we've moved in a direction which everyone wants to see. So I'll say to the Secretary of State, this is a good start. It steadies the ship in terms of the cuts that those councils with high levels of deprivation have had to suffer, and it brings a strong element of fairness to the settlement.

Now, I'm going to bring the challenge to the Minister. I know she wouldn't expect me not to be completely complimentary in what I'm going to say. And I come back to the point that the chair of the select committee made about the need for change. This is a good start, but is now need for radical change. We came in with a manifesto of change. We've got a large majority and with a willingness we can deliver on it. There are the major issues of social care.

I'm disappointed still that we're not going to make changes to social care funding until 2029. After the review, I think we could do it more quickly. We're clearly moving on send. We've got to move on children's social care as well. There is something that some councils can do to help themselves, like Warrington Council, who start to build their own children's home so they don't have to send children to very expensive private homes. Yes, yes.

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I'm grateful to the hon. Member for Sheffield South East, who's generous with his time. We may not generous with his time. We may not agree on the cuts that began in agree on the cuts that began in 2009, but on the on the topics that he's raising, he hasn't yet touched on the remoteness, removal of the on the remoteness, removal of the remoteness, uplift, you know, does he agree and across party spirit that including a remoteness uplift that including a remoteness uplift just for adult social care but not for children, not for any other services, must be contrary to common sense and affects remote rural authorities more than others across the country.



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I'm not going to. Go through every detail of this settlement. It's it's always a balance. Local government balance. Local government settlements that Ministers have to come to a judgement about. What I would say overall, and it's the would say overall, and it's the overall impact that I think I want to judge it by. To me, this is a fairer settlement for those fairer settlement for those authorities with high levels of deprivation that suffered the worst cuts under the years of austerity

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cuts under the years of austerity that I will. Thank you very much. Madam Deputy Speaker talked about whether this is a fair settlement. I think if we look on balance, we will find that if we look at the number of.

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Councils that have Labour constituencies are the ones that are benefiting from this, and the are benefiting from this, and the councils that are represented on this side are not, and the fairness can be derived from that.

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can be derived from that. It's always it's always possible. It's always possible. First of all, of course there are a lot more of course there are a lot more councils with Labour MPs. That's the initial start. But but of course, it might just be the point that Labour MPs represent councils with high levels of deprivation. That might be a simple explanation that one could draw from it, but

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right. I'd like to add to that that standing here as an MP with a conservative council, I've had a colleague from Conservative Croydon Council, they cheer. Unfortunately it's a bankrupt Tory council, but it's a bankrupt Tory council, but luckily this government is stepping in and despite it being a Tory council, has followed the deprivation and the need and is

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deprivation and the need and is properly funding it regardless of political colour. Clive Betts absolutely. Council

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Clive Betts absolutely. Council should be funded according to need, not according to political representation. But but but but before members opposite start. No I don't know whether members opposite are old enough to remember Dame Shirley Porter and Westminster Council and how they were stuffed with money over visitor nights just to keep the conservative victory at the local elections. But we'll we'll move on from that. That's a long time ago. What I would say to my to my hon. Friend frontbench, there are these big challenges that do need to be addressed, and we've got to get to grips with them.

But we also have a local government finance system, which is fundamentally broken. And the select committee chair has commented that in her very excellent speech a few moments ago, the select committee in the last Parliament made the same recommendations. How can you continue to fund the local authority system in the modern age with a council tax system based on valuations in 1991? It is a nonsense. It's not sustainable. Yeah, you go to someone, a new house and say, how did they arrive at the value of my house? Well, it's what it was worth in 1991, but my house has been built.

I know, but they have a guess of what it would have been worth if it had

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been built. Then. Look, this this is ridiculous. And we've got to. We've got to change it. It's also regressive. Yeah.

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Yeah. Michael Gove, Secretary of State, said the system was regressive and it is. The poorer households paid it is. The poorer households paid disproportionately more in council tax. It simply is not fair. And in tax. It simply is not fair. And in every year, of course, has been going on since 2010. Council tax going on since 2010. Council tax has taken a higher and higher share of the local government funding. Therefore, what we're doing is placing greater and greater burden on that part of the funding settlement, which is regressive.

And when the Chancellor made the commitment during the election campaign not to increase certain taxes, council tax was omitted. So council tax has been going up disproportionately. And unfair regressive tax hitting the poorest hardest. We simply have to do something about that. And it comes back to the democracy point that the chair of the select committee made while this is going on, and poor families are having to pay disproportionately more. But in terms of local government spending, more is going on social care and homelessness and special education needs.

The things which are really important, which most people don't receive, then most people, particularly those on lower incomes, are paying more tax every year and getting less in services because of the cuts to other services. As the pack recognised. That's not sustainable. It undermines the trust in local authorities. People say to me, the council put my council tax up and I'm getting less for it. It really has to change this. We can't do it, I will. Yes, OK.

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Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker, and thank you for giving way to my hon. Friend in Hartlepool, 70% of every penny the council spends is on social care, and my constituents pay as a proportion of their property value as a proportion of their income, far, far more than more affluent areas of the country. And, as he's areas of the country. And, as he's rightly said, do not receive the services that they need. Is it not time to abolish the council tax system.



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To reform itself? Fundamentally, it wouldn't be recognisable from what we've got now. And that's that. what we've got now. And that's that. That's the that's the way we've got to try and move forward. Along with business rates. We promised business rate reform. And Madam business rate reform. And Madam Speaker, I'm sorry what we've had so far is not reform. It's some minor changes. Yes, good changes to minor changes. Yes, good changes to try and help with pubs and leisure facilities. But it isn't facilities.

But it isn't fundamental reform we need. We. Yeah we we we we we could look at what both Denmark and Australia have done to reform their whole system of council finances based on land values. That's one alternative. But let's at least have a look. Let's at least accept there is a need for change, even if we can't agree precisely at this point what the change would be. And in bringing about that change, I say to my hon. Friend the Minister, let's look at giving local authorities more power to actually determine their own levels of taxation.

We are an outlier in Europe about how centralised our local government finance system is. That's another challenge. It's partly comes from the great inequalities we have in this country, much greater than most other European countries between different parts of our country. And I welcome the ability of councils to be able to put on a tourism tax. But that's a really minor step move towards more safe local councils about the money they can raise. A very small step welcome, but very small.

So I just say to the Minister, really well done on the reforms and improvements to the existing system. It's really welcome, my city, my constituents, welcome that. But the big, big challenges lie ahead now about some more fundamental reform of the system and more powers back to local council in terms in determining the money they raise. I say to the Minister, you probably won't agree with that today. You probably won't stand at the despatch box and say, we completely agree. We're going to get on with it, but at least start thinking about it.
17:01
Bradley Thomas Portrait Bradley Thomas MP (Bromsgrove, Conservative)
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Bradley Thomas yeah. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I'm going to keep my comments pretty brief and they will be focussed on council tax. And the focussed on council tax. And the reason they will be brief is because I was hoping to intervene earlier on. The Secretary of State, who said he didn't want to dodge difficult topics and wanted to talk about promises. He didn't take an intervention because he probably knew what was coming. I want to talk about broken promises and I want to talk about difficult topics, the primary one being affecting my residents right now across Bromsgrove in the Villages, in fact, across Worcestershire, is the government's collusion with reform to hike the council tax by a staggering 9%.

That will be the highest council tax increase that Worcestershire County Council will have imposed on its residents. I believe it will likely be the highest increase in council tax across the country this year, and it's reprehensible, Madam Deputy Speaker, because prior to the general election in 2024, the Labour Party stood very clearly on a manifesto that said they would freeze council tax. And they know as well as I do that they have no will to deliver that, that the political difficulty I won't, you know, I won't give way because the Secretary of State wouldn't give way to me, the central state wouldn't give way to me.

So I'm not I'm not going to give way. And listen, I'm not going to give way and be lectured to by Labour MPs who are not upholding their promises. Madam Deputy Speaker, so the government stood on a manifesto to freeze council tax, knowing full well that they would not be able to deliver that. But worse still, last May, prior to the local elections, the Reform Party stuffed leaflets through the doors of residents across Worcestershire, indeed across the country, pledging that they would cut council tax.

Now they spoke about this Doge program of local government efficiency. It's very interesting that there's not a single reform member of Parliament here in the chamber today to defend their record. And with this Doge programme, where is it? Why is it revealed? Nothing? They thought that they were going to be able to turn the sofa upside down. Give it a good shake. £100 million would fall out of it. Well, that didn't happen. But I can tell you what did happen in Worcestershire.

Since last May, £100 million has been the overspend from the reform administration and as a result, they've come cap in hand to this government for emergency funding and for a council tax rise in excess way in excess of inflation and way in excess of the 5% threshold for a referendum. I will give way to my hon. Friend and neighbour, Mark Garnier.

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I'm incredibly grateful to my hon. Friend and neighbour Bromsgrove. He's raising incredibly Bromsgrove. He's raising incredibly sorry. My apologies. He's raising incredibly important points about how our constituents were promised how our constituents were promised that they would have a cut in council tax and and have been royally let down by, by the Reform royally let down by, by the Reform Council. But can I embarrass my hon. Friend, it's worth remembering that Friend, it's worth remembering that there are a lot of conservative district councils do very well, and my hon.

Friend the Member for Bromsgrove was the leader of Wychavon District Council over the last 14 years, where for five years it was deemed the most financially resilient district council in the country and at the same time didn't see a single penny increase in

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council tax. That is what conservative councils deliver. Yeah.

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Yeah. I thank my hon. Friend and neighbour. He is far too generous. I was leader of Wychavon District Council in south Worcestershire for Council in south Worcestershire for five years, where we proudly froze council tax for five years consistently without cutting a consistently without cutting a single service. Local government is lean. It can be run efficiently and effectively without duping the effectively without duping the taxpayer. But back to that Jeep. Madam Deputy Speaker. The reform administration on Worcestershire County Council came cap in hand to the government.

The government has granted them emergency funding. They've agreed, in effect colluded with reform. You've got two parties here that have agreed to put up council tax for residents, who they both promised that they would not do that. And as a result, residents in Worcestershire are paying a price. So my message to the Minister is very clear. If we want to maintain trust and integrity in politics at all levels, it's very important that those promises are stuck to that they're abided by.

Otherwise don't make them in the first place. But most importantly of all, as over 1100 Worcestershire residents in the last 48 hours have signed a petition opposing this

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increase. It's crucial that this goes to a referendum and the people of Worcestershire have their say. Yeah.

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Yeah. Jonathan Brash. Thank you. Madam Deputy Speaker, can I start with the hon. Member for start with the hon. Member for Bromsgrove who didn't give way when I asked? I think it's really important. I will happily give way important. I will happily give way in a moment should he wish to correct the record. But he said that the 2024 Labour manifesto that that the 2024 Labour manifesto that we stood on promised to freeze council tax. No such promise exists in that manifesto, and I'd invite him now to correct the record.
17:06
Jonathan Brash Portrait Mr Jonathan Brash MP (Hartlepool, Labour)
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I thank him for giving way. Madam Deputy Speaker, residents across the country knew ahead of the general election that the Prime Minister had made various very public pledges that the Labour Party would freeze council tax should they come into office. Now, if there's an omission on my part that it was not worded in their manifesto, then I apologise for that. But the reality is coming back to that point about trust in politics. If we want residents across the country to have faith in the political system, it's important that politicians stand by

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their promises, whether they're television. Yeah, Jonathan.

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Yeah, Jonathan. I thank him for that. I would say if we want trust in politics, we need to be accurate in what we we need to be accurate in what we say in this place. And I appreciate you correcting the record. Sorry. In correcting the record, Madam In correcting the record, Madam Deputy Speaker, before I start my substantive remarks, I do want to substantive remarks, I do want to say that the Minister who is in her place now understands exactly what I'm going to say, and I know how sympathetic and supportive she is to this.

And I am hoping in the coming days that we will be able to deal with the issue that I'm going to raise, and I thank her for her support in recent weeks. I want to be clear about what Hartlepool is facing and why the current settlement I cannot regard as fair, but also believe to be self-defeating. Hartlepool now has the third highest number of children in care in England. That pressure has been made worse by other local authorities, placing families in my town, leaving us with a £6 million overspend in children's social care alone.

Now my brilliant Labour Council has already taken decisive action, halving that projected deficit in year and putting in place a robust, credible plans to eliminate it entirely. That plan is exactly what the government says it wants to see fewer children coming into care, more early intervention, stronger families and better outcomes. It includes strengthened early help and family support, a dedicated care team, a refreshed in-house foster care model, safe reunification pathways, wholesale send reform, enhanced support for care leavers and better workforce planning.

This is a serious preventative change, not sticking plaster solutions. But here is the problem. These reforms require short term stability to succeed. This settlement does not recognise the sheer number of children in care in my constituency. In fact, it undermines the prevention, meaning we likely see more children in care, more long term costs and worse outcomes. That's why I see this settlement as self-defeating. Ministers will rightly point to percentage increases in funding, but those percentages mean far less in Hartlepool than almost anywhere else, because our baseline starts already so low.

Yet the cost of a child in care is exactly the same in Hartlepool as anywhere else. And when you look at it in cash terms, the reality is stark. The increase in government grant for Hartlepool this year is just 3 million. That is the equivalent to around six children in care and after weeks of discussions and representations, the final settlement for Hartlepool has remained unchanged. Yet down the road. And this does stick in the craw for me, I must say. Reform led Durham Council has received an additional £3.7 million this year, which means they are reducing how much they are increasing their council tax.

That increase on the final settlement from the provisional settlement is more than our entire increase this year. I cannot describe that as fair funding, this unfairness, as we've heard from many members across the House, is compounded by a broken council tax system. Hartlepool has one of the weakest tax bases in the country, with a high proportion of homes in band A, a 1% increase in council tax in Hartlepool raises a fraction of what it raises in wealthier areas. Yet our residents already pay far, far more, both in real terms and as a share of their income than almost anywhere else in the country.

This settlement simply does not change that reality. So when governments of all stripes talk about core spending power, and half of that core spending power is achieved by raising council tax, this calculation hammers the poorest communities most. It is a regressive tax. That's not fairness. It's entrenched inequality. To make matters worse, changes to deprivation measures in population assumptions mean Hartlepool's needs are being systematically underestimated. Official forecasts put our population at under 94,000, yet the ONS data already forecasts it closer to 100,000 growth, driven in large part by other councils discharging their homelessness duties into my constituency.

Hartlepool is not asking for special treatment. We are asking for support to deal with a problem not of our making so we can deliver.

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I'll happily give away. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The hon. Member is actually The hon. Member is actually touching on an important point that in particular affects a lot of councils across the north of England, including Blackpool, neighbouring to myself, where larger metropolitan areas are effectively exporting their children in care problems to much children in care problems to much cheaper areas such as Blackpool and Hartlepool, as the member represents, and maybe some kind of restriction on how far councils can move.

Children who are being put into care might stop this,

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basically dumping children in caring areas just because the housing is cheaper. Jonathan Brash thank you, Madam

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Jonathan Brash thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for his comments and I would endorse them wholeheartedly. I have heard stories of London boroughs of heard stories of London boroughs of Birmingham Council putting families in taxis under the threat of in taxis under the threat of getting the taxi or you're homeless, not knowing where they're getting out at the other end and discovering that they are in Hartlepool. Only when they arrive left for our council to deal with the pressure left with our council to deal with the additional send needs, and for our council to deal with the children who always who ultimately sometimes end up in care.

It is a disgraceful practice and one that should rightly be cracked down on. I know again the Minister is very, very alive to this problem and it needs to be dealt with. I

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will give way, Minister. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I just want to thank both hon. and I just want to thank both hon. Members in that interaction. Of course, the hon. Member for Hartlepool is rightly talking about Hartlepool is rightly talking about the financial consequences, but I just want to check and confirm with him that he thinks as I do, as I'm him that he thinks as I do, as I'm sure the member opposite does, that it's the children's, the outcomes for those children that also must be abysmal, that we should also be abysmal, that we should also care about.

And that's why he would agree with me. I'm sure that this ought to be a priority.

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Jonathan Brash I absolutely agree. And just this week there are stories in my local press about a stories in my local press about a family with children who, frankly, have been moved to a place with no connections, no familial links, no understanding of the local community. And the Minister is absolutely right. Those children

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absolutely right. Those children are suffering as a result of the behaviour. Of course I'll give way. I thank my hon. Friend for

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I thank my hon. Friend for giving way. I just wanted to add my voice to this point because in Croydon we find ourselves in a very similar situation where inner London boroughs will put their children into our our part of London because the housing is slightly cheaper. However, I've also had constituents who have been faced with the exact situation the hon. Member outlined where they are threatened with homelessness, the with the council discharging their duty if they do not take a placement in Birmingham, losing their job in some cases, their children losing their places at school, losing all connections to their family.

So there needs to be a holistic look at this how we support councils to keep families locally, but also how we prevent

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councils having to pick up the tab for these terrible situations. Jonathan Brash thank you.

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Jonathan Brash thank you. I would absolutely endorse everything there, and I think part of that work needs to take a very, very close look at this funding very close look at this funding settlement and look at those councils who have perhaps done very well out of this settlement to see well out of this settlement to see whether they are still doing these things and moving people out of things and moving people out of their area when they've actually got extra finances from this government.

Happily.

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Thank you. Thank you to the hon. Member to give way, to give me a chance to respond to the Minister as well as to the member. And as the former Police Commissioner for Lancashire, I saw first hand the impact on communities of impact on communities of effectively dumping children from cities from miles away into high crime, high deprivation areas, simply because the housing is cheaper and the damage that has on cheaper and the damage that has on their life chances, let alone the impact on the communities that are often struggling with regeneration themselves and adding to the problems is paramount.

And I would be more than happy to meet with the Minister and the hon. Member from Hartlepool to discuss how, on the Fylde coast this is an issue, but across the North, and to discuss

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how we take it forward. And I would absolutely take him up on that invitation. And you've already mentioned Blackpool. I know already mentioned Blackpool. I know hon. Members who represent Blackpool would be very interested in that. And and Stoke as well, which makes up the top three in which makes up the top three in terms of the number of children in care. So I'll close by saying that without support to deal with this without support to deal with this gap in our in year funding for children's social care, the risk is clear prevention will fail, costs will rise, and vital community services like youth provisions, libraries, community hubs are put under threat.

I fully support my Labour Council colleagues locally who have been clear that they are not prepared to make those cuts, which would be so self-defeating in their own. It's a moment of profound seriousness for my constituency. Hartlepool has a plan for children's social care is aligned with the government's agenda. What we need now is a settlement that gives us a fair chance to deliver it. And so I say again to the Minister in her place, I have spoken today with our council leader and colleagues in Hartlepool.

They are distraught, they are despondent and they are profoundly worried about what the future holds in just a matter of days when the Budget is due to be set in Hartlepool. So I appeal to her for any piece of support that she can give me. Thank you very much.

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Clive Jones very much. Madam Deputy Speaker. The settlement is Deputy Speaker. The settlement is unfair and is a disaster for my constituents in Wokingham. Wokingham Borough Council is Wokingham Borough Council is already the lowest funded unitary authority per capita in the country, and was under the conservative government for more than ten years. And now, as a result of this so-called fair funding review, this Labour government is cutting £43 million, a further £43 million from Wokingham Borough Councils government Budget.

Wokingham is a Liberal Democrat run council and they have done their best over the last four years to balance the books whilst coping with massively growing adult social care costs. When I was leader of the council, I tried to improve the settlement. My successor has continued to do this.
17:18
Clive Jones Portrait Clive Jones MP (Wokingham, Liberal Democrat)
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These cuts will drive councils who are already struggling with rising costs for social care and costs for social care and children's services, to possible breaking point for 2526. Wokingham breaking point for 2526. Wokingham Borough Council allocated 39% of its Budget to adult social care and its Budget to adult social care and allocated 25% on children's services. So much of the council's services. So much of the council's Budget is allocated to vital statutory services provided to residents, whether that supporting send education home to school, transport or social care for vulnerable adults.

The government's cuts to funding will have significant implications for these services. Implications that need to be to be grappled with and planned for by councils. But the settlement provides little information for local authorities like Wokingham on how to manage send costs until 2028, or how existing deficits, which increase every day, will be resolved. So I would urge the government to provide a clear timeline as to when councils will receive certainty on the same deficit. Without a clear timetable, responsible financial planning is not possible.

But we cannot just consider the short and medium term solutions. I have spoken to many local care providers and have seen through casework that there is a real problem with spiralling provision, costs and availability. The government must bring forward a fully funded long term plan for adult social care reform, ensuring local authority funding. Settlements are not determined by the escalating costs of a social care system that is bankrupting councils and placing unsustainable pressure on the NHS. Action needs to be taken now.

After years of conservative neglect from 2016, David Cameron and the five subsequent prime Ministers promised reform to adult social care. And yet they have achieved nothing. Ultimately, the government needs to rethink its fair funding review to point zero if it wants to avoid starving councils like Wokingham of

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much needed cash to run their vital services. Anneliese Midgley thank.

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Anneliese Midgley thank. You, Madam Deputy Speaker. After 14 years of the Tories and 14 years of the Tories and coalition government, councils like mine in Knowsley were cut to the bone and I represent what was the bone and I represent what was the third most deprived constituency in the country. When I was elected, we didn't just experience pressure, we were absolutely stretched to breaking point and deep, sustained
17:21
Anneliese Midgley Portrait Anneliese Midgley MP (Knowsley, Labour)
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cuts went hand in hand with a huge and rising demand for services. And and rising demand for services. And that is the legacy the last government left behind unfair, fragmented and underfunded, stacked against places like mine. So I welcome this. Labour government is welcome this. Labour government is taking a fundamentally different approach, and one that sees local approach, and one that sees local councils as part of the solution to rebuilding Britain, not part of the problem. It marks an important change and far from the days of the former Prime Minister boasting at a summer garden party in Tunbridge Wells about changing funding formulas to divert public money away from deprived urban areas like Knowsley over instead areas like mine, those hardest hit by historic funding cuts, will see greater investment based on need and deprivation.

So I want to thank the Secretary of State and the Minister of State for Local Government for listening to me and my colleagues in this place. One of them, from St Helens South and Whiston, is by me right now and from all across Liverpool City Region. And my council's representations on the provisional settlement consultation, which would have not met the challenges that we face in Knowsley. It was absolutely right that they engaged with us constructively and work to address the issues that we faced, which would have left Knowsley struggling.

Madam Deputy Speaker in Knowsley. The pressures that we face remain very real. After being battered by the Tory and coalition government and austerity for so many years. But people really need to feel better off in their everyday lives with improved public services and children's services and adult social care, they really need to feel the benefit of a Labour government to truly demonstrate that austerity is over. We need to do more. And I want to echo the words raised by so many colleagues around mine on these benches today about the regressive nature of council tax, because Labour government invest in lives and improves lives in communities like mine, youth provision that gives young people safe places to go, positive role models and real opportunities, better support for the children who need it, and help for families who have too often been left fighting the system alone.

Community spaces and parks that we can feel pride in place in. Where we live live in high streets, libraries and leisure centres and more. I know that this government is committed to doing that for Knowsley, and I know that progress takes time. So today I celebrate, but tomorrow it will be no surprise for my hon. Friend to hear that I will fight again for better still. And, Madam Deputy Speaker, I want to pay a heartfelt tribute to Knowsley Council leader, Councillor Graham Morgan.

He was out of the traps first on what we needed. He has been relentless through the consultation in making the case not just for my borough but indeed for the whole of Liverpool City Region, standing firm to ensure that this settlement is fairer. His persistence and council gave me the arguments and evidence I needed with colleagues from across Knowsley, to stand up for our community in this place. It was true teamwork in action. The benefits of Labour MPs and Labour Council working together.

And I also want to put on record the work of our Metro mayor, Steve Rotheram. He too fought for a fairer settlement for our city region with passion, clarity and determination. Madam Deputy Speaker, this is the start of the road to a brighter future for Knowsley. Today marks a clear turning point from austerity, instability, cuts and neglect under the Conservatives to investment, fairness, partnership and certainty under Labour. I welcome the change of direction, but I will continue to fight for more and for better

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every single day for my constituents. Graham Stuart. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. It's a pleasure to take part in this debate, which has had a number of distinguished contributions, not least that of the hon. Lady just least that of the hon. Lady just now speaking on behalf of Knowsley. And as she rightly said, at this And as she rightly said, at this time, when cost of living is biting so much on so many people, people really need to feel better off. And really need to feel better off. And she also highlighted the regressive nature of council tax, which is why it's so regrettable that this settlement is built on the basis of putting up council tax on everyone.
17:26
Graham Stuart Portrait Rt Hon Graham Stuart MP (Beverley and Holderness, Conservative)
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And that's exactly what the last Labour government did in its 13 years. It doubled, it doubled the years. It doubled, it doubled the level of council tax, whereas over the 14 years of the Conservatives, the 14 years of the Conservatives, it only grew a little more than inflation. As it was held down for many years, it went up and down many years, it went up and down over time. That is the history of the party opposite puts up council tax, even though its spokespeople speak about how terrible and speak about how terrible and regressive it is.

And then they visit that on people in constituencies across the country. In my own constituency, the impact of the 4.99% annual expected rise in council tax, which they've put into all their figures about claiming they'll be increased spending power, it's it's based on sticking up tax by 5% and then another 5% and then another 5%. It's compounded. I'll come to the hon. Gentleman in a while that for the cheapest home, the lowest value home in the East Riding, people very often in rural areas with very poorly insulated homes, with costly transport and low income, is going to be by year three, £200 a year out of already taxed income.

That's the reality of what this Labour government is visiting on. Poor people in my constituency and other constituencies around the country, while they crow about it being fair, there's nothing fair about it. The local government finance settlement will mean one thing only for families in Beverley and Holderness. Higher Council tax bills when every other bill is soaring. Again, thanks to this government, as the Secretary of State for energy signs up the most expensive deals imaginable and puts and puts up the price of energy while we see the jobs tax, one of the most economically irrational taxes you could imagine because it taxes jobs and it doesn't bring in any money because simply people employ fewer people.

Which is why that 26 billion hit on the economy comes down to single deckers. It's it's having. I will come to the hon. Gentleman, but I'll make a little more progress first. And the reality I'm in talking to my constituents, Jenny and Cherry. Burton said that she, when she can't really afford to shop for healthy food because half her money is gone before she even gets home, forcing her to make choices that no family should have to make simply to get through the week.

Andrew and Beverley faces rising energy bills. As I've touched on and rising food prices, he highlights, all the while supporting his two children at university who can't find part time work. Madam Deputy Speaker, previously they would have done. They can't find part time work because those jobs have tended to disappear. So there are fewer and fewer opportunities for young people to get on that jobs ladder and supplement the income. While these students pile up student debt, which is only going to go up even more as time goes on.

So these aren't abstract pressures. They're lived realities, and this settlement will pour on yet more misery. The Prime Minister says every minute not spent talking about the cost of living is a

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minute wasted. But warm words do not warm homes, and I give way to the hon. Gentleman. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker,

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I appreciate the hon. Member giving way. He made this point about core spending power. And by about core spending power. And by the way, I share his irritation at the use of core spending power the use of core spending power because such a large percentage of it is in council tax. But it was it is in council tax. But it was introduced in 2016 by the last conservative administration. The concept of core spending power and including council tax was introduced by the Conservatives.

Can I ask him what he said at the

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time? The hon. Gentleman. I don't remember the specifics of that, but I can say is that whereas the last Labour government whereas the last Labour government doubled council tax, despite it being regressive, that didn't happen under the Conservatives. happen under the Conservatives. Whatever introductions there were, they those taxes were held down because that's what conservatives because that's what conservatives do. They recognise that it's better to leave money in the pockets of people to make their own decisions, people to make their own decisions, not take it away from them.

And families across the East Riding are now asking a very simple question, because they know that promises don't pay bills. How does this local government finance settlement and the £200 council tax bombshell that follows it help them cope? Because let us be clear about what's happening. Madam Deputy Speaker, the Chancellor Underfunds councils are squeezed, council tax rises and families pay. And council tax is of course, as so many members opposite have said, regressive. The lower the income, the heavier the burden, the smaller the home, the sharper the hit.

At the very moment the household budgets are tightest, this government tightens them further and nowhere is this clearer than in social care, because in the first Budget, the Chancellor allocated the over £20 billion to health. Why didn't recognise that a lot of the problems in the NHS actually come from the failure of funding in social care and, and could, could so easily, within the same spending envelope, have eased the pressure on the NHS by allowing social care to be better funded so it could draw out those who are ready to leave hospital from occupying the beds, which they do.

They have for the past years and they do today. But so they didn't put sufficient money, additional money into social care. And in Beverley and Holderness, with ageing populations and rising adult care needs, that imbalance matters. Instead of funding care properly at source, Ministers shift the cost onto council tax payers and then they claim that they fixed it. I saw the real world cost of squeezed council budgets when I visited Sunk Island last month. I will give way to the hon.

Lady in a moment. On Sunk Island Road and Brick Road. Residents endure patch upon patch upon patch repairs that never truly repair. They're paying more, yet still waiting for lasting fixes. This is the pattern. More tax, less certainty, higher bills. Patchwork results. Government should strengthen communities, not squeeze them. So I asked the Minister, when families are stretched to breaking point, why is this government's answer yet another hyped bill in Beverley and Holderness? The only change this government appears to deliver is the small change left in people's pockets after the Chancellor has emptied them, and I give way to the hon.

Lady Marie Rimmer.

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What can councillors do to fund the statutory duties? The people the statutory duties? The people that we've given much better in the past, we have to ration the services, but the quality services services, but the quality services and the integrated health has helped us with our social care. But under the concern, I don't want to under the concern, I don't want to go into past things, but it's a fact. Saint Helen's got 127 million a year from the support grant.

We left with something like nine, 11 million coming from. That's what it was. That's why we need it and that's why we would have been there. The only way you can get it is from the from Bunnings to provide the services. It's from the government and from the, the income to the councils were where did it get it from. With no assets to sell we get it very little. Yes, we've got low paid jobs so it is a high. But what we should be doing is taking it from the broadest shoulders.

We should be taking the burden. It's inappropriate. It's not compatible that the people on the lowest pay, the biggest proportion of their incomes on the necessities of life, whilst those in they've got mansions and they've got a cottage. And I do please, for the people that have the cottage and nothing else, we don't have the mansion in London, so we need to look at

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wealth. And I thank the hon. Lady, who always speaks passionately and with always speaks passionately and with deep knowledge of a community and doesn't, as she alludes to, she doesn't make unnecessary party doesn't make unnecessary party political points. I think the one thing which does unite the House, including the government front including the government front bench, is a recognition that the funding system is broken. But I spent many years campaigning across spent many years campaigning across different funding pots on the distribution.

Because everyone looks at the quantum, they don't look at the distribution. You start to get into a world of complexity, and the number of people who turn up for meetings on distribution gets very small, but it's actually critical. But what we do need is a new funding settlement. How you deliver that in the political realities. And I'm, you know, it's you've got to go in early and hard. And unfortunately this government hasn't. They're delaying and delaying their political power. And potency weakens and it becomes harder and harder to deliver is a bit like I think the the police reorganisation we touched on earlier today is unlikely to happen in the, in the, in the dribs and drabs of a government which is struggling.

But we do need a long term settlement that based on need. Now there's no perfect settlement of that. But what we've what we have is complexity. For with as a brilliant speech from the Member for North Norfolk on the Lib Dem benches earlier, you know, has elements about how many pubs you've got and what some level of cost was in 1991 and all sorts of other things. So the truth is, it's this most fundamental of services to her constituents in deprived areas and mine.

This most fundamental set of services, 800 services. I think my my colleague rightly identified all of these things are are actually nobody can see the transparency and what we're actually getting. And I'm going to bring myself to a close because I've already gone over the time I said I would do so. I won't give way to the hon. Gentleman is just to say we do need, and perhaps we should look on the backbenches initially for, for, for you to build a fairer funding system.

And just to take one thing, I don't know why no one's talked about it very much in my 21 years in this place. The fact that a £200,000 house in Beverley pays a lot more tax than a £2 million flat in central London, is absurd, and very rarely does anybody mention it. And we need to fix things. If we can't fix something as absolutely inexcusable as that and we haven't collectively, then we all need. No wonder the public are looking at us so askance.

So let's come out of here and be very happy to talk. The hon. Lady and the Member for Hartlepool and others, and see where we can make some common ground to have a more rational system, because at the end of all this complexity and lack of transparency leads, it ends up in social failure. Where, as the hon. Lady rightly and passionately says, it's those who have the most vulnerable, are the least able, who pay the highest price, and whether that's in her part of the world or mine, that's not acceptable.

And if we've come in here, we've all of us came here to make it a better place. And one of the things we need to fix is this.
17:37
Terry Jermy Portrait Terry Jermy MP (South West Norfolk, Labour)
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Terry Jermy. >> Madam Deputy Speaker, I was first elected back in 2008, and I stood for a by election for my stood for a by election for my local town council, and I was 22. It was by chance, really, and the opportunity came up to put myself forward, to stand to represent my local community. And as it happened, I beat the head teacher of the local high school in that by election. Up until recently, it was my favourite election win, but I then went on to stand for the district council a few years later, and a few years after that, I stood for Norfolk County Council and I ended up spending more than 12 years on all three tiers of local government in Norfolk.

And what I found was a world of local government officers, local councillors working incredibly hard to serve their local communities, trying to save money, to almost work the impossible by constantly striving for efficiencies, by doing whatever they possibly could. Good councils, good councillors are a real force for good. They can achieve so many wonderful things and a really overshadowed in many ways by national government. And I really wanted to put on my record, on record my thanks for local government.

And I think we saw that during Covid because it was local government particularly, that really rose to that challenge to serve what we saw during my time I was elected, as I say, in 2008, and for the vast majority of my time as a local councillor, we saw cuts after cuts after cuts every single February Budget setting council meeting was just this constant battle to try and save money and we both councils, Breckland District Council, Norfolk County Council were conservative led conservative government and we were cutting services constantly.

What we ended up with was massively weakened resilience and frankly, services that bound our communities together were eroded. These were not just numbers on a balance sheet in Norfolk. It meant that we were closing children's centres. We were removing support for disabled people. We were closing entirely the youth service in Norfolk and selling off assets. And it was just this constant battle. So I do understand the predicament the government is in, and I do have a significant amount of sympathy because it will take years to undo, undo the constant cuts and eroding of that resilience.

And it's not going to be easy to turn that around. I wanted to make three particular points to the Minister, if I may, and the first is about rural services specific. I'm very proud to represent South West Norfolk. It's a very rural constituency, and I cover two or half of two district, Breckland District and King's Lynn and West Norfolk Borough Council areas, very rural councils and it is expensive to provide services to a rural community. And I am pleased that social care in particular is being acknowledged as being expensive across the whole of the county of Norfolk, social care is particularly expensive, but other district council services in rural areas are expensive too.

And I think specifically planning. We are a government that wants growth. We want growth all across the country, including in rural areas. We massively need to support planning services in rural areas to achieve growth potential and not have planning applications that are lingering for determination. It is very difficult to recruit planning officers for rural district councils, and they are, and that is a barrier to growth in rural areas. The other is housing. I've been constantly shocked and concerned about the state of housing in my constituency in south west Norfolk.

Huge issues with rural housing with damp and mould, draught, all sorts of challenges that we're dealing with in in my office. The housing challenges in rural areas are expensive and are very often we are having as a council to transport people from one end of the county to the other or out of the county, because there is a lack of suitable temporary and emergency accommodation available. The second point I wanted to make was around hidden deprivation. The council ward that I represented, despite being in a rural area, was within the top 10% most deprived in the country.

We had very low wages, poor health and skills and educational attainment was low. And I'm very concerned that in so many government metrics, intense deprivation in rural areas is masked by more affluent surroundings, and I hope the government comes up with a system where we can properly account for and recognise intense deprivation in a rural area, and not just look at the overall council boundary. The last point I want to make, and it was touched upon by the hon.

Member for North West Norfolk, which is internal drainage boards, and I appreciate that it is slightly niche because there are only a certain number of constituencies in the country where this is relevant, but certainly in Norfolk and Cambridgeshire and Lincolnshire, these are critical pieces of infrastructure which frankly remove water from significant amounts of land, both residential and agricultural. If we did not have idbs operating, there would be so much of our land, particularly agricultural land, that just would not be usable and really weaken our food security in this country.

I have dozens of idbs in South West Norfolk and I've spent a lot of time visiting them. They do incredible work, but it should be noted that those councils that have internal drainage boards in their area are impacted to and their finances are impacted to a great extent in King's Lynn and West Norfolk Borough Council, for every pound of council tax you pay, every pound of council tax you pay, 43 goes on IDB in the 2526 financial year.

That council, which many councils obviously don't have that expense but are unique pressures for those areas. Idbs the costs have gone up a lot because of electricity costs, frankly, going up manning the pumps. I have the largest pumping station in Europe in my constituency and Wiggenhall Saint Germans and this network across the area. And it just gives me an opportunity, if I may, to mention one in particular, which I visited, which was in Welney a couple of weeks ago, and I met Ken Goodyear, Patrick Claybon and Karl Nunn.

My real concern with Idbs is that this is infrastructure, which is 5060 years old, costing a fortune to maintain, and at some point it will fail and we need to have investment in Idbs one on the capital costs, but also on the revenue cost. And I would urge the government to continue the support for Idbs councils affected by Idbs as we move forward, because they are absolutely crucial pieces of infrastructure. Thank you.
17:45
John Milne Portrait John Milne MP (Horsham, Liberal Democrat)
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David John Milne. coalition years and austerity today. To the extent that I began to wonder if I'd misread the title of wonder if I'd misread the title of the debate, whatever the whatever the rights and wrongs of of austerity, it was the conventional wisdom at the time, had we been in wisdom at the time, had we been in coalition with Labour, I think the same thing would have happened, perhaps under another brand. I for the time, my me personally, I was living in Ireland, living, working in Ireland the whole time, Republic of Ireland.

They actually carried out a much more severe austerity and the economy bounced back very well. You can we can argue about whether it was because of austerity or in spite of austerity. That's an argument for the economists. I'd like to also thank the the hon. Lady who's just leaving member for St Helens South and Whiston for her, for her comments on on not wanting us to be a zero sum game between taking away from some and at the expense of another.

So I very much agree with her and many other members that that particularly the deprived areas, particularly inner urban areas, who have been very unfairly treated over a very long time, something needed to happen. I wholly agree with that. However, it should not be at the expense of of other rural areas which I represent. So where are we now? And again, I'd like to applaud the government for taking actually taking some action on this whole issue, which has been kicked down the road for many years.

I also applaud the writing off of 90% of deficits. It's a must have been a difficult decision. It had to be done. It was never going to be paid for by local authorities. So also in that area, the government has committed to to centralising spending from 2829. But what we're not sure of is, is how far that that commitment will truly go. Will it only cover the high needs, block deficits, or will it reflect all the other costs around SEND provision, such as home to school, transport and other aspects? Because in counties like West Sussex where I represent send, transport costs have risen dramatically over recent years.

These pressures, they don't sit neatly in one Budget line. They ripple across children's services and transport budgets. We're also still awaiting clarity on what's going to happen with the AhrC. One of my adjacent to my constituency, Michelle Catterson, who runs is the head of Moon Hall School, has spoken clearly about how vital AhrC are to Sustainability cannot be achieved by weakening to in HCP or by diluting diluting council's duties to fund them. And I'm very concerned that that is what is about to happen when Ministers are asked directly about this.

What will happen to HCP protections? The answers have been far from clear. Parents must have certainty. Each CPS must not become a backdoor route to cost cutting. I also have serious concerns about the evidential basis of elements of this settlement. My local council, Horsham District Council, was initially projected to be operating with a with a healthy surplus. However, the Institute for Fiscal Studies has now flagged up miscalculations in the business rate valuations and unfortunately, that position has now inverted into a deficit.

Many councils operating within business rate pools, as Horsham District Council does have found that funding formulas did not properly account for those arrangements until very late in the process, as the District Councils Network has warned, changing allocations between the provisional and the final assessment settlement due to revised policy assumptions is deeply destabilising. Councils are entitled to ask on what evidential basis are these formulas being constructed? 2018 departmental research suggested that population is actually often a more accurate predictor of need than deprivation alone.

Yet this settlement has put all the weighting onto deprivation. Why can we see the justifications and rationales? Deprivation, of course, exists across the country, and that includes in rural communities such as my own. It may be in pockets, but it's still there, and it's still felt just as deeply. We know that geography is a major cost. Driver councils. Rural councils face longer travel times for care workers, higher transport costs for schools. Dispersed populations, then, are provider markets and recruitment challenges.

Yet metropolitan councils are projected to receive significantly higher per head funding increases. In some comparisons, government funded spending power rises by around 20% in metropolitan areas, but just 2% in rural areas. In in county areas like West Sussex. When it comes to the funding increases, approximately £0.98 in every pound will have to be raised locally, as opposed to just £0.58 for metropolitan areas. That's a terrific difference. That imbalance raises legitimate questions about fairness between places. And that brings me to to what I would say the most fundamental inconsistency.

The government recognises remoteness as a cost factor in adult social care. So why is remoteness not consistently recognised in children's services and in school transport and in wider service delivery? How can distance and sparsity increase cost for adults, but apparently not for children? If geography does drive costs and in rural counties it definitely does, then it must be reflected consistently across all funding formulas. Finally, the reintroduction of the recovery grant is welcome in principle. But why is its allocation still based on deprivation indicators from 2019, when more recent data exists and has been elsewhere across government, when millions of pounds have been distributed? Councils deserve clarity that allocations reflect current realities, particularly given the economic shifts in recent years.

Without that transparency, we have mistrust, Madam Deputy Speaker councils stand ready to work with government. But but fairness but clarity. But they they must have in return fairness, clarity and clear evidence. Thank you Richard Foord.
17:51
Richard Foord Portrait Richard Foord MP (Honiton and Sidmouth, Liberal Democrat)
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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, the this final settlement for local government finance does not bring good news for Devon. Research by good news for Devon. Research by the Rural Services Network has shown that urban councils will have significantly more government funded spending power per head than rural councils. By 2028, 29 urban councils will have seen a 20% increase in government funded spending power, compared to an increase of just 2% for rural councils.

And yet, on average, in rural economies, the wages are lower than the national average wage. This settlement will place a significantly greater expectation on council tax payers in rural areas to cough up. Let's consider what effects this might have on residents of Mid and East Devon. By noting what things are already like for people living in one village of East Devon. Dellwood is a village with a population of about 460. The village is half a mile from the main road and a road, and one of the two access routes to the village has been underwater since November.

I heard from one resident that the state of the road is so poor that she was charged £1,000 for car repairs as a result of negotiating the pitted, crumbling access road. She makes the point that East Devon and and its residents pay some of the highest rates of council tax in the country. In a league of the highest rates in the country for a band D property, East Devon is rated 305 out of 350 with a 350th local authority is paying the most.

The government announced last month that it will be making available £7.3 billion for road maintenance over the next four years. When people in Devon hear about numbers like that, they wonder whether officials and contractors are going out to the cash machine, drawing out the money as cash, mixing it with paste, using it to make papier maché and filling the potholes that way. Because the reality is that the money is not finding its way to Devon. Devon has the largest road network in the country at 13,000km.

Last March, the repair backlog for the roads in Devon alone would have required an extra £384 million to make good. The reality is that Devon was able to spend little more than £60 million on road maintenance last year. Take another example. One resident of Sidmouth wrote to me recently. I, for one, have paid out damages to my vehicle. In five and a half years. The sum of £5,100. They continue here. We are living in the UK, an advanced country with the lanes, a roads and B roads in an appalling state of repair.

That is the context of the local government settlement as it relates to Devon. This local government settlement has removed the remoteness uplift from the area. Cost adjustment. The settlement does this in all of the relative needs formulas, with the one exception of adult social care, and I'm glad that the government has acknowledged that adult social care costs more when it's done and delivered in a in a rural area, but the government has been blind to the needs of rural communities by removing the remoteness, uplift from other areas of local government, including road maintenance.

To conclude, Madam Deputy Speaker, councils in rural areas don't have the same economies of scale that urban areas enjoy. The countryside requires more bases from which services can be delivered. The countryside has fewer contractors with less competition. The countryside cannot have the same economies of scale as cities and big towns. I urge the government to think again about the remoteness uplift. Thank you.
17:55
David Simmonds Portrait David Simmonds MP (Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner, Conservative)
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Shadow Minister. >> For with the leave of the House. Madam Deputy Speaker, when the Prime Minister said there would be no tax rises on working people, I no tax rises on working people, I imagine that the working people who are about, in some cases to receive a £500 a year increase in their council tax. The working people in Westminster, who expect an 82% rise in their council tax, those in Wandsworth who expect an 87% rise in their council tax as a result of this settlement, will wonder if working people was a phrase that applied to them.

And those in our business community who heard the Prime Minister say to them that a Labour government would introduce, to, quote, permanently lower business rates, will wonder whether massive rise in their business rates bill has come from. There are things, Madam Deputy Speaker, in this statement, that give the opportunity to make tweaks, make changes and make progress. I know I'm grateful to the Minister for the interest that she's shown, for example, in the way that the Local Growth Fund, whose method of distribution is having a huge impact, particularly on colleagues in Northern Ireland, offers some scope for some adjustment.

But it is very clear that the recovery grant, which the Secretary of State has spoken of, still bears little or no relation to the pressures arising from the statutory duties of local authorities. And it leaves, as we've heard, from across the House councils, tens of millions of pounds short of the money they need to do the minimum that is required of them by this government before addressing some of those broader, more general issues. But, Madam Deputy Speaker, we have two motions before us this evening.

One of those is on the statement itself. The other is on the referendum limit. I'm sure we've all noted the complete absence of any reform members from the chamber during this debate tonight. And I'd like to pay tribute to the champions of Worcestershire, the members for Bromsgrove and for Wyre Forest, who spoke up for the residents against an authority that, having been part of a party that promised no rises in council tax and cuts in office, is now looking to top the league table with the largest council tax rises this year in the country.

They should be ashamed of the messages and the misinformation that those election campaigns gave to residents. So let me finish, Madam Deputy Speaker, with some things which I hope the Minister might address in her summing up. The first is what this this statement does to support housing delivery. Now, we know from the recent report from Savills that 23 of London's 33 boroughs report net zero new homes being commenced this quarter. Lambeth has been very public and I know the Secretary of State's particularly familiar with that, as is the chair of the select committee, has reported net zero new social homes in their housing delivery.

So it's clear that housing delivery is collapsing at a time when lofty ambitions are being set. At the same time, the grants in the statement for homelessness cash flat for care costs are cash flat. The vulnerable children are cash flat for care, leavers are cash flat. So it's clear for all of the bluster, Madam Deputy Speaker, that the smoke is clearing the mirror is not particularly shiny. The impact that the relentless rises on National Insurance contributions, business rates, even the addition of an additional £750 million of costs to local authorities from changes to the emissions trading scheme, will put huge pressure on the ability of local authorities to deliver.

And having said that, the Secretary of State wanted to move away from a bidding process. We now hear that the funding that's been announced without any detail for special educational needs deficits, is going to be the subject of a bidding process to the Department for education, in which there will be a requirement for a reform plan. And it will be interesting to hear set out how that reform plan differs from the safety valve agreements, which many of those authorities already have in place, which are reducing those send deficits year on year.

So, Madam Deputy Speaker, what is clear in this settlement is that the government is not meeting even its own standards on local government. Local democracy is paying the price. With elections cancelled and taxes relentlessly rising. This statement. Madam Deputy Speaker, must be seen for what it is. It is a council tax bombshell. It is a business rates bombshell. It's part of a picture of a Labour government that simply cannot manage the money. cannot manage the money.
18:00
Alison McGovern Portrait Alison McGovern MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Birkenhead, Labour)
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Mr. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Now, it's my pleasure to close this debate, despite the fact that I must apologise to the House, many members in this House will know that I suffer from chronic migraine, and I've been having an attack over the past couple of days, so I might not be as long in my contribution as I might otherwise have been. But in show business and in politics, the show must go on, albeit, albeit my speech might be slightly shorter than it would have otherwise been.

But I think. But I think that will be of joy to many members in the House. The the calm down, calm down, the the Secretary of State. And I know what a difference the hard work of councillors, frontline staff and all our mayors makes and we would like to pay tribute to them for everything they do for their communities, as many members across the House have. But we also know the consequences of the unfairness of the funding system. The last decade and a half of austerity was felt by the most deprived local authorities, because the link between funding and deprivation was broken.

Now, I would just say that the the shadow Minister seemed seemed to imply in his remarks that he thought that the link ought to simply be with statutory duties, rather than any consideration at all of the impact that deprivation makes. And, and I would just, I would just say to him, to those communities that suffered, most were left out for far too long and who struggled with the consequences of deprivation, they will wholeheartedly disagree with him today. That is why we are restoring the link with deprivation and ending the irrational inequality of the previous funding system.

We are, as many have said, providing the first multi-year settlement in a decade. We are investing in changing our public services, and we're simplifying funding for local government. And I want to thank hon. Members on all sides of the House for their contributions today. I think that the hon. Gentleman has had ample time to contribute. And whilst whilst I would normally give way with gusto and have a bit of political knockabout with him, today is not the day for that. So I would like to take this opportunity to thank him and everybody else who's contributed to the consultation on the provisional settlement and to the members who made representations to me directly.

Madam Deputy Speaker, there could be no quick fixes. We cannot undo over a decade of damage overnight. But the settlement we are discussing today is our most significant move yet to make English local government more sustainable, and I am committed to going further in coming years to fix the pressures our councils are facing. And the Secretary of State set out the various mechanisms that we are employing to do that. In his opening speech. This Labour government has backed local government through action and since coming to power, we have made available a nearly 25% increase in core spending power in 2829 worth 16.6 billion.

Now, just to turn very briefly to points that members made the Member for Taunton and Wellington. Wellington relayed the situation in with flooding in the Somerset Levels, and I would like to send my support to his constituents and I will work with the flooding Minister as required. The chair of the select committee and the former chair of the Select committee told me to be bold and I would say to them, I will try, but I look forward to their support in persuading all of our colleagues in this place to vote for whatever bold solutions we come up with.

Members, including the Member for Hartlepool and the Member for Fylde as well. We and other members. The Member for Croydon talked about failures in children's care, and I feel sure that we'll be working together on that. Many members talked about their experiences of councils struggling but often achieving, despite that struggle to provide great innovative services on lean budgets. And we applaud them all for it. Madam Deputy Speaker, as part of this, I'm determined not to give way, if that's OK.

Madam Deputy Speaker, I think we need to bring this debate to a close. But just before, just before, just before I do. On the hon. Member for sedentary position asked me about remoteness. I have discussed this with many members in detail. Want 1 to 1? And I would repeat again, there are other ways in which the cost, the actual costs of providing services in each place are taken account of in this settlement and the through the area cost adjustment and other means.

So I don't agree with what's been said, but I don't want to detain the house any longer. But just before I do finish, Madam Deputy Speaker, I had a I had a wonderful January engaging with many members across this House on the settlement. It was a fascinating opportunity to hear about the uniqueness of every area, but I particularly want to thank my colleagues from Knowsley, from Saint Helens, from Gateshead and from Banbury for their way in which they engaged on this settlement and the contribution they made to the settlement as it is today.

I'm grateful for it. Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like to thank all hon. Members once again for their valuable contributions. Today. The government is under no illusion about the scale of the challenge that local authorities are facing, as they continue to deal with the legacy of the previous system. But our changes will make a big difference and they will get money to where it is needed most, creating a fairer and evidence based funding system and most importantly to me and many others, restoring the link between funding and poverty.

And I commend this statement to the House. The question is the motion on Local Government Finance report as on the Order Paper, as many as are of that
18:06
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opinion say I. I of the contrary, The The question The question is, as on the Order Paper, as many as are of that opinion, say I. I on the contrary. No. No tellers for the ayes Jade Botterill Gregor Poynton Tellers for the noes Andrew Order, Order, order!

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The ayes to the right 277. The

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The ayes to the right 277. The

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Noes to the left 143. Yes. The ayes to the right with 277.

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The ayes to the right with 277. The noes to the left 143. So the ayes have it. The ayes have it ayes have it. The ayes have it unlocked. I call the Minister to move the motion on referendums

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relating to council tax increases. Formally. Formally.

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Formally. Order. The question is the motion on referendums relating to council tax increases as on the council tax increases as on the Order Paper. As many as are of that Order Paper. As many as are of that opinion say I. I of the contrary, The The question The question is, The question is, as on the Order Paper, as many as are of that opinion, say I Of the contrary, no. no. Tellers for the

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ayes Jade Botterill Gregor Poynton Tellers for the noes Andrew Snowden Katie Lam. Thank you. Oh.

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Order, Order, order!

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Order, order! The ayes to the right. 279. The noes to the left. 90.

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Yeah. The ayes to the right. For 279.

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The ayes to the right. For 279. The noes to the left for 90. So the ayes have it. The ayes have it

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unlock. I beg to move that this house do now adjourn.
18:32
18:32
Sarah Dyke Portrait Sarah Dyke MP (Glastonbury and Somerton, Liberal Democrat)
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hot on the heels of Storms Goretti and Ingrid, brought exceptional rainfall to Somerset. 50mm of intense rainfall fell across large parts of Somerset, causing widespread flooding, and set new 24 hour rainfall records in many parts of the South West. Somerset Council of the South West. Somerset Council acted swiftly and declared a major incident, as 50 homes across the county fell victim to flood water, county fell victim to flood water, and the major incident remains in place following persistent rain over the following two weeks.

Yet with more rain in the forecast and high spring tides imminent because the ground is fully saturated, local rivers are highly sensitive to further rainfall. Rainfall, while five flood warnings and 11 flood alerts remain in place across Somerset. Roads are still flooded and communities are cut off. Madam Deputy Speaker, this is not an issue that will disappear on its own accord. Climate change pushes the extremes and Somerset, so often at the forefront of climate change, will see further extreme weather, with prolonged droughts and intense rainfall becoming common.

The Environment Agency projects that there will be a 90% increase in properties at risk from river and coastal flooding, along alongside an increase in surface water flood risk by the 2080s. Physical damage alone is estimated at £2.4 billion annually, and could rise to £3.6 billion annually by 2050, while insurers are set to pay out a £1.6 billion for weather related property claims made last year alone. As the UK battles with the impact of climate change, so the government response to flooding incidents like Storm Chandra must not just focus on helping communities currently dealing with flooding water, but how we can better protect communities and help them be more resilient in the future.

Madam Deputy Speaker building flood resilient communities is desperately important, and it must be a priority because these events are getting more frequent and more serious. Now, before I move on, I would like to reflect on what we really mean when we discuss resilience. Constituents in Glastonbury and Somerton are dealing with flooding with ever more regularity. And Louise, who owns Gingerbread Dance Studio in Langport, told me that while she continues to battle the flood water lapping up against her dance studio floor for the last two weeks, and despite questioning if she may have to move her studio, which she has been running for 14 years now, and that's been some hard graft.

But she's absolutely determined to fight on. But she wants to fight on, but she also wants to learn how she can better understand flooding, be resilient to it, and help to protect other businesses as well. And by doing that, help her

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community. Yes, of course I will. Madam Deputy Speaker, first of

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Madam Deputy Speaker, first of all, can I commend the hon. Lady for Glastonbury and Somerton for bringing this forward? I say this very respectfully, the hon. Lady, in the time that she's been here, and the friendship that we have we've had with each other over the last few years is one that I last few years is one that I appreciate very, very much. But also, the hon. Lady has been assiduous and hard working on behalf of her constituents. And behalf of her constituents.

And tonight is an example of that. The hon. Lady will not be aware of her house, but the storm hit Northern Ireland with ferocity in our schools had to close. The aftermath, however, was the loss of even more trees that had taken a hammering. An unending list of named storms that naturally impacts upon our natural flood defences. And this has been very clear in the aftermath of Storm Chandra. Does the hon. Lady not agree that natural flood defences need to be shored up, or we will create an unsolvable problem for the very near future? Thank you.



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Thank you and I thank the hon. Gentleman from his kind words, but also for his intervention. Indeed. also for his intervention. Indeed. Nature based solutions. Natural flood defences are absolutely important. I will come on to that later in my speech. And I know the later in my speech. And I know the Minister also is an advocate of that as as well. Madam Deputy that as as well. Madam Deputy Speaker, in this place, I have advocated for communities to receive the support they need to develop their own bespoke extreme weather resilience plans, and I pay tribute to the tireless work done by people such as Mary in helping victims of flooding and raising awareness of flood risk and property flood resilience.

Madam Deputy Speaker, Communities who regularly suffer flooding are resilient, but they deserve action and they deserve investment because flood resilience in Somerset cannot be achieved on a shoestring Budget and people deserve better. The Prime Minister has spoken about national security for national renewal, and we must remember that resilience to flooding is part of our national security. I would like to thank the Minister for joining me in Glastonbury. In Somerton yesterday we visited Langport, Thorney and also Drayton to see the impact that Storm Chandra has had on the area.

And I'm sure she would agree that after hearing from the farmer, Mike Curtis, who took us on his tractor and showed us some of his land, that Somerset communities are resilient, but much more must be done to protect them from flooding. And if flooding does happen, they have the tools then on hand and the support in place to help their communities mitigate. Yes, of course I will.

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I'm extremely grateful and congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this important debate and on the amazing work she does on her side, the levels and moors that we we share that span across our two we share that span across our two constituencies. And I hope I do similar work on my side of the levels. Would she agree with me levels. Would she agree with me that one of the messages, and she may well be coming on to it? In any event, one of the messages I hear most strongly from residents in stay then burrowbridge some of them have water lapping up against their house right now, as we sit in this in this chamber and are frightened about what's going to happen tomorrow, in the next day, especially with the forecast of rain.

Would you agree that one of the key things they ask for is, is better communication, so that they are they have as maximum information about what's happening with the levels, when when the pumping is going to start, when it's not going to start as well as, of course, the long term plan that's needed after this flooding

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event to reduce flooding. I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. I absolutely, intervention. I absolutely, wholeheartedly agree. Obviously, every flooding incident is different. Sometimes it is different. Sometimes it is difficult to dictate where those flood incidents are going to happen, but I certainly think there's a lot but I certainly think there's a lot more that we can do. And the Minister and I have talked about the trigger points with the Environment Agency yesterday, and Environment Agency yesterday, and certainly that I know is something that they've committed to, to looking at.

But I also agree that communication with local authorities and that collaborative and joined up approach should, should be better. I also feel that we should, as communities, have better real time information on flooding. And there's a really good example of that on the Cam catchment, where flood monitors have been put on bridges to so we can see an app tracks the flow of water. So communities within that catchment are then aware of any significant increase in the water levels. And I would hope that that is something that can be rolled out.

So there are communities can be better protected and also better protect themselves in these incidences of terrific rainfall.

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Yes, I will, of course. Thank you for taking the intervention. And you're making a sorry. The hon. Lady is making a exceptional speech. There was an excellent debate today, this excellent debate today, this afternoon in Westminster Hall, with thoughtful contributions from a number of members on tree planting. number of members on tree planting. And does my hon. Friend agree that tree planting is essential not just tree planting is essential not just to biodiversity, to lowering temperature, to carbon capture, but

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also very important in terms of preventing flooding. I thank the lady for her intervention in a previous life before being elected here, I was lead member for Climate change and Environment at Somerset Council. Our council, Somerset, has a lower than average tree canopy cover 8% than average tree canopy cover 8% compared to the national average of 14%, and we committed in our ten 14%, and we committed in our ten year tree strategy to plant more trees. And in fact, there's lots of community groups across Somerset imagining re-imagining the levels who bring together volunteer networks to plant trees.

I was out on Ham Hill just a couple of weeks ago, a couple of months ago, planting 3000 trees for exactly that, to help those to become established so they can soak in more moisture and play their part in slowing the flow through those catchment areas. So I wholeheartedly agree. But Madam Deputy Speaker, the Environmental Audit Committee report into flood Resilience stated that the UK is not on track to be fully flood resilient by the time the flood reprogramme ends in 2039.

Their report stated that without clear standards, flood resilience is just a vague ambition rather than a deliverable goal. So I would appreciate the Minister's comments on how she what she means when she talks about resilience, especially at community level, and for communities who have spent time and money putting in place property level mitigations but still flood, how can they better understand what it means to be flood resilient? Madam Deputy Speaker, the memories of the devastating 20 1314 floods are still painfully vivid in the minds of those that have experienced it.

Following these floods, the Environment Agency carried out what was at the time, the single largest pumping operation ever undertaken in Somerset, and following flooding in January 2023, the EA once again put in place another large temporary pumping operation in its history on the levels and moors. Yes, of course I will.

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I thank my hon. Friend for giving way, and I thank her for obtaining this essential debate. obtaining this essential debate. Talking of 2014, reminds me of the previous great storm in Dawlish that took out the railway lines. Now, the three storms that we've had in January, in quick succession, had in January, in quick succession, as we did last January, does appear to be more of a habit now, and it seems to be something we can expect every year. Would my hon.

Friend agree with me that we actually need more government funds that we can call upon to clear up areas after these devastating storms, when they hit so hard in some areas, as they have done in Dawlish and Teignmouth in these recent storms in January.

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I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. I couldn't agree more. intervention. I couldn't agree more. Mitigation, resilience, protection, but also supporting our communities through the aftermath is absolutely crucial, and I thank him for for that comment. Madam Deputy Speaker, that comment. Madam Deputy Speaker, while it is yet to be confirmed, it looks like this ongoing pumping looks like this ongoing pumping operation this year will once again supersede the predecessors that I spoke about. So what does this tell us about flooding in Somerset? Despite the government's claim that they are investing a record £10.5 billion in flood defences? The reality is that the problems are critical now and they continue to grow.

While analysis by Flood People UK shows that capital spending commitment is at a lower annual rate than the previous capital regime. Madam Deputy Speaker in Somerset. We need action and investment to ensure the availability of critical assets when they are needed in emergencies to mitigate flooding, because every £1 spent by the government prevents £5 in damages, including £2 in direc savings to the Exchequer. And yet national flooding budgets have been cut in real terms. So it's crucial that this government invests in cost effective strategies that include flood preparedness, prevention, flood and traditional flood defences alongside nature based solutions.

So communities like those in Somerset and my hon. Friend's constituency aren't left to fend for themselves yet at flood risk. Communities have long felt abandoned by government and its agencies, with the recent decision to withdraw main river maintenance owing to EA funding shortfalls being a clear example of this, with no consultation, riparian owners in Somerset were issued with withdrawal notices last summer last summer, leaving them with the responsibility to undertake maintenance work alone, a decision that has rightly heightened anxieties over further flood risks.

Because appropriate maintenance of main rivers reduces the likelihood that channel capacity will be exceeded or assets will fail. So the likelihood, extent, depth, duration and damage caused by flooding is then significantly reduced. Madam Deputy Speaker, we do not need to go back very far to understand the profound impact that this can have leading up to 2012. Main river maintenance reduced over several years and what followed was a catastrophic flood in 2012. And then, of course, the extreme flood during the winter of 2013.

It has been evidenced that if regular main river maintenance has been undertaken, these events would have much less impact. This is why Liberal Democrats are calling for an urgent review of the decision to effectively abandon main river maintenance. We are also calling for a further £5.3 billion of investment to ensure that flood defences are built quickly and provide provided to all necessary communities to increase local preparedness and resilience. It's in no doubt, sorry. It's in doubt that the costs of defence and resilience is significant, but the cost of getting this wrong or doing nothing is far greater.

£6.1 billion in GVA has been lost from downward pressure as a result of flooding in the last 5 or 10 years, 5 to 10 years. So given that 1 in 4 properties nationally and an additional 1500 in Glastonbury and Somerton alone will be at flood risk by 2050, the costs will only rise. This scenario also opens up a broader question of communication and how different bodies, be it government, Defra, the EA Internal Drainage Boards, the SRA, Somerset Council, communities and individuals work together.

In the meantime, many riparian owners are confused about what their responsibilities are and more must still be done to improve communication and understanding because this lack of clarity is causing frustration and yet further anxiety. Now, I was pleased that the Minister also found time to meet with the Somerset Drainage Internal Drainage Board with me yesterday. They have called for a collaborative approach, but this must be back with backed with an appropriate local and national funding to move it forward. And this approach must be sustainable.

Of course, any change will take time to implement, so it is paramount that the necessary main river maintenance works continue until alternative solutions are in place and alongside ensuring dredging and regular maintenance takes place, I would also like to highlight the importance of natural flood management and what it must do to play its part in making Somerset more resilient to flooding. Now, I'm aware that the Minister shares my appreciation for such solutions, but as the EAC report made clear, these interventions remain undervalued and underutilised in England and must take their place alongside hard engineering projects.

The urgent need to build more homes has led to more than 7000 new homes in England, with full or conditional approval. Planning planning permission on previously undeveloped floodplain land. Now, I am clear that new developments should not be built on floodplains because they increase the speed of runoff and the risk of flooding downstream, putting homes and communities at risk. But for Somerset to hit the government's housebuilding targets, the question must be why we desperately need new homes. Where do these houses go? Surface water flooding is the fastest accelerating risk affecting areas of the country that are not traditionally expected to flood.

Liberal Democrats have led calls to ensure that, where necessary, new homes are built with a range of measures to enhance their flood resilience and sustainable urban drainage systems that do their job and are maintained properly, and that older homes should be retrofitted to help mitigate against flooding. Madam Deputy Speaker, I'd like to pay credit to my constituent, Tim Adams, the flood warden for Blackford in my Blackford just outside of Wincanton. And Tim has undertaken research on the rapid runoff of surface water from the A303, which has often been recognised to material materially increased flood risk.

His work has shown how attenuation patterns or wetlands could reduce peak flows, improve water quality and deliver biodiversity gains. So it is my view that it is essential to utilise citizen science, local knowledge and natural flood management techniques in a catchment area. Approach to flood mitigation. Because recognising the key, recognising this is key. But what is also key is recognising the role that farmers play in flood management by storing flood water on their land to protect those downstream and building natural flood defences.

Must also be considered because 58% of grade one agricultural land is situated on a floodplain, while 9% is at high risk of coastal flooding. Now, without appropriate insurance in place to compensate farmers as they hold water on their land to prevent those wider communities, flooding puts these businesses under increased financial pressure after each and every flood event. Now, yesterday, Mike Curtis told me and the Minister that he has reared cattle in Thorney for over 30 years, peaking at 750 head of beef ten years ago.

But he now keeps less than half this number because his land spends so much time under water. Now, whilst Mike's land saves thousands of homes downstream from flooding, he is unable to access any government support to compensate these losses to his business. And sadly, Mike is not alone in facing this because Trish and Ron from Burnham City Farm near Knowle, also currently have hundreds of acres under water and will run short of feed for their dairy herd before they're able to turn their cattle out this year.

Having massive and catastrophic ongoing impacts on their business. So this is why farmers who store water on their land to protect housing or other critical infrastructure, who are providing a public good, should be properly recognised for doing so and compensated fairly. Liberal Democrats would tailor the qualifying criteria for the Farming Recovery Fund to reflect the realities of flooding for rural communities and for farmers, alongside raising the Elms Budget by £1 billion to support farmers in their transition to environmentally sustainable farming, and recognising their key role in accepting and managing flood water.

Madam Deputy Speaker flood defences in Somerset cannot be run on a shoestring Budget. We urgently need to ensure critical assets are available in place and able to operate at capacity during flood events. We must utilise the multitude of flood defence techniques available to ensure our communities are resilient to future extreme weather events, because there is so much work to be done to ensure England has a strong framework that recognises the role of the multiple bodies and agencies that work together to make flood resilient communities.

So to conclude, Madam Deputy Speaker, as I began, flooding can have a profound impact on mental health affecting individuals and communities long after water recedes. So we must always remember the very real and persistent anxiety that flood victims experience. And this must be central to future government support for at risk flood communities.
18:53
Emma Hardy Portrait Emma Hardy MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Kingston upon Hull West and Haltemprice, Labour)
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Any staff? >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I'd like to thank the hon. Member for Glastonbury and Somerset for calling this debate and providing an opportunity for us to providing an opportunity for us to hear and discuss the steps this government have taken in advance. And in response to Storm Chandra, Storm Chandra brought heavy and persistent rainfall to the United Kingdom between Monday the 26th and Tuesday, the 27th of January. For many communities, particularly in the southwest, the succession of storms has felt relentless.

A cycle of anxiety, disruption and uncertainty that has tested both infrastructure and resilience. During Storm Chandra, rain fell on ground that was already waterlogged. The consequences of this have been felt most acutely in Somerset and across the wider southwest, where the three severe flood warnings were issued. The highest category of alert, signifying a genuine danger to life. Thankfully, all three severe flood warnings were able to be lifted by the afternoon of Thursday, the 29th of January. However, the challenges have not ended, as I saw when I visited southwest yesterday.

In preparation, Local Resilience Forum stood up. Their response arrangements and local partners have worked side by side to support residents sharing information, evacuating households at risk, pumping water, patrolling flooded areas and helping vulnerable people. The Environment Agency operated its Somerset Maldon levels flood plans at full capacity, deploying pumps and managing flood storage areas around the clock. As river levels rose, local authorities led evacuations in Dorset and Somerset. Their professionalism and compassion have been vital to affected communities. Work is ongoing, with around 300 flooded households to determine when homes can safely be re-entered nationally.

Defra activated its Emergency Operations Centre to

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coordinate cross-government activities. The event. I'm extremely grateful to

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I'm extremely grateful to Minister for that and she's right to pay credit to the Environment to pay credit to the Environment Agency, who have rolled out pumps faster than ever before. But one of faster than ever before. But one of the key questions I get asked is could we not have permanent pumps could we not have permanent pumps so that we don't lose five days bringing them down from Yorkshire? Apparently the crane that puts them on site has to wait around 2 or 3 days, cost £80,000 a day to have it there.

If we have permanent pumps, the pumping stations will last. Built in the 19th century, surely it's time to have permanent installations. We could save a week, several days, and that could that could create space for millions of

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cubic metres of of water. Yeah, yeah. And yesterday in the

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Yeah, yeah. And yesterday in the meeting that we had with the internal drainage boards and the Environment Agency, one of the things the Environment Agency said things the Environment Agency said is they would look at the costings around that, recognising, you know, the importance of it. But the events of the past few weeks have brought back memories of the catastrophic floods of 2013 and 14, catastrophic floods of 2013 and 14, when entire communities were cut off for weeks and livelihoods were deeply affected.

My deepest sympathies go out to every individual, family and business affected by this flooding. For some, it's the first time they've faced this disruption, but for many of us it is heartbreakingly familiar. And flooding is not just an inconvenience, it is a profound emotional and financial shock. It disrupts daily life, damages treasured possessions and leaves people feeling vulnerable in their own homes. And I want those affected to know that we are committed to supporting them, not only in the immediate aftermath, but in the months and years ahead.

As of this morning, the Environment Agency have reported that approximately 308 properties across England have been flooded, of which 16 have been in Somerset Levels and Moors. An estimated 22,850 properties have been protected by flood defences and assets have stood up well and the Environment Agency have not reported any issues or with reports of asset failure or that have resulted in flooding. But of course, the department will be carrying out a post-event assessment with resilience partners to identify where the lessons that could be learned.

And I want to take this opportunity to express my sincere gratitude to the first responders, Environment Agency staff, emergency services, local authorities and volunteers who have worked tirelessly to keep people safe. Their dedication, often in the most challenging and dangerous conditions, has been extraordinary. So although Storm Chandra has now passed, further rainfall has triggered Met Office yellow rain warnings across the southwest and other regions. We expect a sustained operational response to continue for several weeks on the Somerset Levels and elsewhere.

This will involve an ongoing pumping operations, continued monitoring of river and groundwater levels and close coordination between local authorities and emergency services and national agencies. Yesterday's visit to Somerset, with the hon. Member to see the situation firsthand was invaluable. We witnessed the extent of the flooding across the Somerset Moors and levels, and we spoke with the Environment Agency staff, the local farmer Michael Curtis, the internal drainage members, Rebecca Hoisington from Ada E Anna Turley from Somerset, Chief Somerset IDB chief executive, Tony Bradford, IDB chair and community representatives who are working tirelessly to protect homes, farmland and infrastructure.

I saw the impact of the 16 days of incident response, villages cut off by flooded roads and the impact on people's mental health, I'm pleased to say, following my visit, the Environment Agency has committed to reviewing the issues around water level management in Somerset. Once this incident, of course, has come to an end, they'll be working closely with the internal drainage boards and the council as part of that wider recovery plan. That review will look at several important questions when pumps should be activated, whether the current trigger points are right, and whether installing permanent pumps in certain locations could offer better value for money in the long term.

I also want to acknowledge the vital contribution of Somerset Council, Devon and Somerset Fire and Rescue Services, the police, ambulance services, the members of the Idbs and any of us who have played essential role in this multi-agency response. Flooding of this sort was always going to happen, but we can shape how prepared we are. The government is investing at least 10.5 billion by March 2036 to construct new flood and coastal erosion schemes and repair existing defences. This record investment is an average of 1.4 billion per year, and and increase on previous investment, and will benefit nearly 900,000 properties.

This includes a record 22.65 billion over 20 2425 I know

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what's coming and 20 2526 building on. I beg to move that this House do now adjourn.

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now adjourn. The question is that this House do now adjourn. Minister. Thank you, Madam Speaker. And as

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Thank you, Madam Speaker. And as we were, we are we are taking this decisive action to halt the steady decisive action to halt the steady decline in the condition of flood defences seen under the previous government by shifting an extra 108 government by shifting an extra 108 million into maintenance and repair of existing assets. We are also boosting the delivery of new defences by making available 140 million to 31 projects that are stalled because of funding gaps. In October, following consultation, we announced major changes to our flood and coastal erosion funding policy.

These reforms will make it quicker and easier to deliver the right flood and coastal defences in the right place by simplifying our funding rules, the new funding policy will improve the balance of funding between building new projects and maintaining existing defences, and will ensure that deprived communities continue to receive vital investment. We will use government funding to unlock investment from public, private and charitable sources, making every pound of government investment go further, and we're going to invest at least 300 million into natural flood management over ten years as a minimum, though I'm always keen for that to go higher.

The highest figure to date for the floods programme, but these funding new funding rules will be brought in for the new floods programme, so they start in April 2026 is when the new rules kick in. This April I saw once again the crucial role internal drainage was play in these events. Our £91 million IDB fund supports greater flood resilience for farmers and rural communities. 94 Idbs are delivering projects that are already benefiting over 400,000 hectares of farmland and over 200,000 properties.

The Environment Agency estimates that the fund will avoid around 10 billion in economic damage. A point, yeah, of course.

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I thank the Minister for giving way and I deeply thank her and the way and I deeply thank her and the Member for Somerton and Glastonbury for highlighting what's been going for highlighting what's been going on in Somerset because it's dreadful. I may I join you in thanking all of those who have thanking all of those who have responded. I very much welcome the moves that the Minister is talking about in terms of ensuring that we about in terms of ensuring that we have in the EA money for maintaining assets, as well as building new ones.

My hon. Friend earlier in her speech mentioned the importance of Suds sustainable urban drainage systems, and we had a debate on that in Westminster Hall just last week. In that debate, the Minister talked about ways of maintaining the suds. I was asking for Suds to be a statutory responsibility to create the agencies, as in schedule three of the 2010 Water Act, the Minister was suggesting that there was a route by which a section 106 funding could be used to create permanent maintenance for these.

For Suds, I was, I was. Might I ask the Minister as to how that could be achieved, given that section 106

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money is finite and limited? I thank you, gentlemen, and I think the best answer to that is think the best answer to that is for me to get MHCLG. Who are the responsible department for this? To give him a full answer on exactly give him a full answer on exactly how they can maintenance. Because I recall from from the debate, one of the things they were looking at is the things they were looking at is this long term maintenance of Suds and how that can be achieved, but I'm mindful of the fact that they I'm mindful of the fact that they were.

That is another department's responsibility. Apologies. All so through through the Internal Drainage Board Fund, we are further investing in resilient infrastructure that can withstand more frequent and intense storms, supporting communities with clear information, accessible resources and long term recovery assistance. Enhancing natural flood management. Restoring including restoring wetlands which is brilliant. Improving soil health and working with nature to slow the flow of water. So in April 2025, the Environment Agency proposed pausing main river maintenance in certain low risk areas of Somerset.

However, it became clear following a query raised by the hon. Member for Glastonbury and Somerset in November 2025. The initial process did not provide sufficient opportunities for engagement with local communities and stakeholders. As a result, a new consultation period is now open, running until April 2026, and this consultation will allow residents, landowners and local organisations to share their views and help shape the future of flood risk management in their area. I fully recognise the importance of flood risk maintenance, particularly in areas like Somerset where the landscape and hydrology create unique challenges.

DEFRA in the environment agency officials are already in discussion with key stakeholders, and this formed part of a wider conversation at December's Flood Resilience Task Force meeting that I chaired. These discussions are essential to ensuring that our approach to maintenance is fair, transparent and grounded in the needs of local communities. My letters to. Apologies. I've not got the constituency here. I've just got the names. So sorry, Madam Deputy Chair. So Ashley Fox in February, thank you. In February 2025 detailed the actions being undertaken in support of this.

The Environment Agency needs to prioritise its funding rigorously, of course, and focus on its areas and activities that deliver the greatest overall benefits for people and property, including reducing flood risk and value for money. And they are spending significant resources every year in pumping and managing the Somerset Levels, and their work is essential to maintaining that delicate balance of water across the landscape, supporting agriculture, protecting homes and preserving the

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unique ecology of the area. So just a quick intervention.

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So just a quick intervention. I'm really pleased that the consultation is open again. That will be good news for for riparian will be good news for for riparian owners across Somerset. But should the consultation come back and the riparian owners would then need to continue to do their own maintenance work, what support would be put in place for those would be put in place for those that don't have the equipment or the wherewithal to be able to support that? And if we're looking at a holistic approach, if one riparian owner decides not to do any maintenance, what will then be the knock on effects of that and how how do we then make sure that our our network of rivers is

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resilient and doesn't flood other areas? Yeah. Here is the challenge that the hon. Lady is putting forward. I think for me, the first step is let's see what the response to the consultation says and then let's consultation says and then let's continue those conversations. But I do recognise that point around riparian ownership and riparian ownership and responsibility and and what happens when you don't have everyone responding to the responsibility in responding to the responsibility in the same way? It is a it is a challenge.

And as we look to the future, we must ensure this investment continues to be targeted, effective and sustainable. But beyond the technical and financial considerations, we must also recognise the human dimension to flooding. Behind every statistic is a person, someone who has had to leave their home, someone who has lost possessions, someone who is worried about the future. Flooding affects mental health, financial stability and community cohesion. It can take months or even years for people to fully recover. This is why our response must be compassionate, comprehensive and long term.

We must also acknowledge the broader context in which these events are occurring. The increasing frequency and intensity of storms like Chandra and Ingrid reflect a changing climate. While no single weather event can be attributed solely to climate change, the pattern is clear. We are facing more extreme rainfall, more volatile weather systems and greater pressure on our flood defences. This reality demands that we strengthen our resilience not only through infrastructure but through planning, community engagement and environmental stewardship. That is why protecting communities from the dangers of flooding is a key priority of this government.

This year has started with record breaking rainfall, nearly twice the long term monthly average in the South West, which has been deeply challenging, strengthening local and national coordination, ensuring that agencies, councils and emergency services can respond swiftly and effectively is crucially important. And as we were yesterday, listening to communities valuing their lived experience and ensuring that their voices help shape future policy, this government's record investment in flood defences will better protect communities from flooding right across the country. Not only that, but it will boost economic growth in local communities by protecting businesses, delivering new jobs and supporting a stable economy in the face of increasing risk of flooding as a result of climate change.

This government is committed to act and ensure that communities are better protected from flooding in the first place. We will continue to deliver and repair flood defences, improve drainage systems and develop natural flood management schemes, the Emergency Services Environment Agency, local authorities, voluntary organisations and government departments stand ready as ever to support affected people in any future flooding event. It is a personal priority and privilege to be the Minister responsible for flooding, and I will continue working to make sure this government responds as effectively as possible to floods.



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The question is that this House do now adjourn. As many as are of do now adjourn. As many as are of that opinion say I. I the ayes have
11:00
None Portrait Oral questions: Northern Ireland
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