Housing Benefit

Iain Duncan Smith Excerpts

Wednesday 26th February 2014 Commons Chamber

[Rachel Reeves]

All that money could have been spent on building the houses we need to deal with the overcrowding crisis and other crises of which the Government speak; instead, house building is at its lowest level since the 1920s.

Let me turn to the loophole. Just when we thought that things could not get any worse, the latest shocking turn in this sad and sorry story was the revelation last month that because the Government could not even draft their own legislation and regulations correctly, many of the households that they had told local authorities should be made to pay the bedroom tax—those who had been in continual receipt of housing benefit for the same residence since 1996—were in fact not covered by the legislation.

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

The hon. Lady referred to the National Housing Federation report and claimed that it said there was cause and effect with regard to the implementation of this policy and arrears. May I quote something to her and then hear what she has to say about it? The report actually said that it is

“difficult…to attribute any observed rise in outstanding arrears since 31st March 2013 to the introduction”

of the spare room subsidy “alone” and that the situation needs to be monitored. Secondly, it said that the vast majority of housing associations reported no rise in evictions. Would the hon. Lady like to withdraw her previous comments?

[Rachel Reeves]

The facts speak for themselves: two thirds of the households hit by the bedroom tax have fallen into arrears and councils up and down the country are trying hard not to evict people, because they know it is the wrong thing to do. They are trying to help people and we should welcome that and applaud them for doing the right thing, unlike this Government, who are failing to do the right thing.

[Rachel Reeves]

The right hon. Gentleman knows full well that this scheme is retrospective in a way that the scheme for the private sector was not. The people affected by this loophole have been living in their properties since 1996. They thought they had a secure and permanent tenancy, but it turns out that they do not, because they cannot afford to live in the home they have lived in for, in some cases, their whole lives.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

rose—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. You are both up at the same time. Is the hon. Lady giving way?

[Rachel Reeves]

I have already given way to the Secretary of State.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

On a point of clarification.

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

Order. There can be only one person on their feet at a time. It is up to Rachel Reeves whether she wants to give way to the Secretary of State. She has given way to him once already and it is for her to judge whether she will do so again.

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[Heather Wheeler]

In the last two and a half years what conversations has the hon. Lady had with her council? My district council is now building council houses. My Conservative council is building one, two, three and four-bedroom council properties. What have Labour Members been doing?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

My hon. Friend is in full flow and I think she is magnificent. May I remind her that the answer to that question is that under the previous Government the building of social housing fell to its lowest level since the 1920s? Opposition Members talk a lot about it, but they did absolutely nothing for those living in overcrowded accommodation.

[Heather Wheeler]

That says it all. I know that this is meant to be a 90-minute debate, but I wonder whether the Opposition want to give up now because we are having the most ludicrous conversation. I feel so sorry for the voters and residents who are looked after by people who scream and shout and say that they look after the most vulnerable people in society, but physically do nothing about it.

Oral Answers to Questions

Iain Duncan Smith Excerpts

Monday 24th February 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con)]

9. How many people have had their benefits reduced to the maximum of £26,000 (a) nationally and (b) on the Isle of Wight to date.

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

By December 2013, 36,471 households had been capped nationally. Local figures obviously vary from area to area. The Isle of Wight is an area that does not get capped as much; some 100 households or fewer have been capped so far. These numbers include single households without children, for whom the cap is less than £26,000.

[Mr Turner]

The average gross wage on the Isle of Wight is just over £18,000, so take-home pay is about £15,000. The benefits cap is £10,000 more than the average islander earns. How can I explain this to islanders? Does the Minister think that I should mention that the Labour party believes that there should be no limit at all on the largesse of taxpayers?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Far be it for me to recommend to my hon. Friend what he should mention to his constituents, but he might well start with the fact that this benefits cap was opposed by Labour when we implemented it. His point about the level is simple. We have embedded the cap now, it has been rolled out and we have made sure that it has worked properly. We have seen a huge number of people move back to work; some 19,000 people who were going to be capped have gone to work and thus avoided the cap. So the cap is successful everywhere. However, we should remember that there are differences in income and in London a lower cap would be a rather severe penalty to put on people. Therefore, although I keep the cap under review, I have no plans at the moment to change its level.

[Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)]

The hon. Member for Isle of Wight (Mr Turner) clearly wants the cap to be reduced in his area and the Secretary of State makes an important point about London. Does that not suggest that there is some argument for taking into account regional variations in costs, so that the cap reflects what is happening locally?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I am intrigued and pleased that the hon. Gentleman says that he supports the principle of the cap, which is more—in essence—than the Opposition have ever done in any vote. They voted against the cap—just in case they have forgotten. My point to him is a viable one. The trouble is where should regional calculations be made? Cities in regions have different levels of income from some of the countryside, so it starts to become quite a complicated process. Of course, I am willing to discuss this issue with the hon. Gentleman and anybody else who thinks that they have a plan, and I will certainly look at that, but right now the cap is successful, the majority of the public think it is a good idea and it was only his Front-Bench team who decided to vote against it.

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

Does the Secretary of State think it appropriate to consider putting a cap on the amount of housing benefit that landlords can receive? Can we at the very least have some transparency, so that we can see how many people who support the Tory party rake in hundreds of thousands of pounds in benefits?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I do not know if it is now Labour policy to cap landlords in that way; I suspect that the immediate effect would be fewer landlords making properties available. It seems to me that that would be a complicated, tortuous and pointless policy. However, I think there is plenty of transparency; some of the papers seem to have found out the facts for themselves.

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[Laura Sandys (South Thanet) (Con)]

18. What recent progress his Department has made on the roll-out of universal credit.

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

Since October, universal credit has started running in Hammersmith, Rugby and Inverness and it is rolling out today in Harrogate and Bath. It is already out in a number of other centres up in the north-west. Based on caseload projections, some 6,000-plus people are likely to be paid universal credit in the pathfinder. That will be subject to confirmation in the official statistics. Many more claim jobseeker’s allowance using the key elements of universal credit, which are also being rolled out to a wider audience. Some 270,000 jobseekers are now using elements such as the claimant commitment, which is part of universal credit.

[Nick Smith]

Well, the Secretary of State is certainly going faster than universal credit.

Under the Government’s original timetable 1 million people would be receiving universal credit by April this year. When does the Secretary of State now expect this 1 million target to be met?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I have said constantly and I continue to say that we will not be giving out targets for dates. As I said earlier, roll-out has begun. I invite the hon. Gentleman to go to any one of the centres and talk to the staff there and to the claimants. He will find that what is happening is a real improvement in their seeking work and getting work, and in the advisers being able to apply themselves to those with the greatest difficulty. Universal credit will have rolled through by 2016, as I said, with all those benefits merged into one, and people will be claiming universal credit, not any other benefit.

[Mr Speaker]

I call Laura Sandys.

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[Laura Sandys]

I am a strong believer in behavioural change, and my behaviour will change shortly—but just before it does, what assessment has my right hon. Friend made of the behavioural change that is happening as a result of the introduction of universal credit?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I say to my hon. and highly informed Friend that it is important for us to understand what this is all about. Colleagues on either side of the House should attend centres where universal credit has been rolled out. They will hear from the advisers that we are beginning to see a real change in culture among those who are claiming benefit and those who are delivering it. All the centres that I have visited believe that this is improving the situation for claimants, and it makes life a lot easier and a lot more efficient for advisers in jobcentres.

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

Would that the Secretary of State were as informative as the Speaker. The answer to the question on the Order Paper—in other words, how many people are on universal credit—is 3,200. Bearing in mind that so far universal credit has cost £612 million, that is £191,250 per person, which does not compare very well with the £6,500 per person that was mentioned for the future jobs fund. It seems that the Prime Minister was right when it comes to Government pet projects: money is no object. When will the Secretary of State allow the Opposition direct access to his officials so that we can sort out his mess?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I rather hope that at some point the hon. Gentleman had a maths O-level, because his maths is so pathetic as to make it risible. He has all the numbers and all the amounts that are relevant to the development of all the equipment that will roll out the complete universal credit. [Interruption.] I am going to answer this question. In truth, the operational running costs of the pathfinder, which is what we are running at the moment, are some £6 million, which equates to £200 per claim. By the way, he needs a little correction. In case he had not noticed, we have already invited him and all his colleagues to come and visit us. I think they are down to visit us this week, so he needs to check his diary, or maybe his colleagues did not want him to come with them. I do not know.

[Graeme Morrice (Livingston) (Lab)]

15. What assessment he has made of the effects of the migration of claimants from incapacity benefit to employment and support allowance.

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[Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)]

17. What recent assessment he has made of the extent of abuse of zero-hours contracts in back-to-work schemes.

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

Under the Work programme, providers are paid for getting people into sustained work, generally a job of at least 16 hours a week, paid at the national minimum wage or more, and which lasts for a minimum of six months. That can be two or three jobs, but none the less, they have to last for six months.

Outcomes are counted on that basis, therefore DWP does not hold information about the employment contract itself. Moving someone on to a zero-hours contract would not count as a job outcome unless it entailed meaningful work that was registered, taking them off benefits.

[Chi Onwurah]

My constituent was taken on by a security company on a zero-hours contract with a promise of 40 hours a week, but he has been given only 17 hours, while the company takes on more staff from the Work programme with more promises of proper hours. He cannot pay his rent, he cannot sign on because he would be considered to have made himself unemployed, he cannot plan and he cannot live. When will the Secretary of State end this abuse of zero-hours contracts?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

As I understand it from what the hon. Lady said, her constituent was not taken on under the Work programme, but others in the Work programme were, which was causing him the problem. If she wants to give me the full details of the case I will look at it, because that is slightly different from what I understood her question to be about. If there is an abuse among the Work programme providers in this regard, I will certainly deal with it.

[Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)]

Will the Secretary of State look at those vacancies, particularly in the Ryedale jobcentre, that are the most difficult to fill, which tend to be in the care sector? Will he also look at any abuse of zero-hours contracts in the employment of carers, whether under the Work programme or any other long-term sustainable work?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

First, may I say how pleased I am to see my hon. Friend in her place? It is my personal hope that she remains there and returns to the House again, because she gets great coverage for her constituents. The issue she raises is an important one, but we need to get the right balance between what zero-hours contracts deliver and any abuses there might be. The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills is carrying out a consultation, and we are fully co-operating in that and will ensure that such contracts do not cause problems in the Work programme. However, it is worth remembering that those contracts also provide people with a flexible way of working and the freedom to arrange jobs around other commitments, and they allow employers to be competitive in response to market trends. I therefore think that we must get the balance right with zero-hours contracts and not throw the baby out with the bathwater. We must recognise that for many people they are positive and helpful, but we also want to end any abuses there might be for others.

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

19. What plans he has to meet representatives of the Trussell Trust.

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

Although food banks are not a Department for Work and Pensions or Government responsibility, Department representatives and Ministers—myself included—have on occasion had cause to meet representatives of food banks, including the Trussell Trust.

[Susan Elan Jones]

A decade ago at Easterhouse the Secretary of State said how important small, grass-roots community organisations are. If he really believes what he said then, when he spoke the rhetoric of broken Britain, is not it time he set a date, met the representatives and listened to what they have to say about food poverty in the United Kingdom?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I have two points for the hon. Lady. First, I have just said that all of us have at some point met representatives of the Trussell Trust. Secondly, I absolutely think that those involved in food banks and in supporting those who are in difficulty or in need are very valuable members of the community, and I celebrate the work they do. I believe that it is the right thing for them to do. I think that all those involved in food banks are decent people trying to do a decent bit of work for those in need of help, and we support that in general terms as constituency MPs. However, I must say that the over-politicisation of this issue has done no help at all, as some leaders of food banks have attested over the past week.

[Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)]

The Trussell Trust has been exposing the real impact of Ministers’ policies, so out of pique they have refused to meet the trust’s representatives since last summer. Now that they have been overruled by the Prime Minister, who met trust representatives last week, will DWP Ministers at last step up to their responsibilities? Was not the Cardinal Archbishop of Westminster absolutely right when he said last week that

“there shouldn’t be people living with nothing, in destitution, in a country which is as prosperous as this”?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I have two points for the right hon. Gentleman. First, he, his party and others have deliberately set out to politicise the issue of food banks—[Interruption.] Well, those are not my words. The person who runs the Oxford food bank has said:

“I think this whole debate has become hopelessly politicised.”

Food banks do a good service, but they have been much in the news. People know they are free. They know about them and they will ask social workers to refer them. It would be wrong to pretend that the mass of publicity has not also been a driver in their increased use. The Opposition, notwithstanding the fact that under them the number of food banks increased tenfold, are trying to make a political issue out of this. They have done no service to those who need help and support and no service to those who run the food banks.

[Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con)]

T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

Today I welcome the latest statistics showing the growth in employment over the past year. Against a rise of 54,000 foreign nationals at work, 360,000 more UK nationals are employed, a far better record than under the previous Government. With new measures to tighten up on immigration still further, such as the minimum earnings threshold announced last week, we are ensuring that those who want to work and who will work hard and play by the rules will see the benefits of Britain’s growth.

[Steve Baker]

The bishops have said that there is an “acute moral imperative” to act on welfare, and I agree, because that has been clear since at least 2006, when the Centre for Social Justice published its report, “Breakdown Britain”. Will the Secretary of State confirm that he is still on a moral mission to break those cycles of deprivation that lead to entrenched poverty so that people can live lives of hope and fulfilment?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I am determined, as I have been since I arrived as Secretary of State, to improve the welfare system so that it supports people back into positive lifestyles, and that is what we are doing. More people have moved from economic inactivity, which is now at its lowest levels, back into work. There are now fewer workless households than there were on our arrival. When we came into government, one in 20—a fifth—of all households were without work; that figure has now reduced for the first time in 30 years.

[Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab)]

On 13 January, the Secretary of State told this House that between 3,000 and 5,000 people were wrongly paying the bedroom tax because of a loophole in the legislation. Since then, councils have been trawling through years of records to find out who has been overpaid. Will the Secretary of State update us on how many people were wrongly paying the bedroom tax?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

On the loophole that I talked about when I made that comment, the estimate we had, which was drawn from local authorities and still stands, in our view, was that some 5,000 people may be affected. That is based on the most up-to-date data that local authorities have given. I know that the hon. Lady and her team have made a freedom of information request, but the key thing is that the information we have is based on all the local authorities’ evidence to us, and I do not believe that her evidence is in any way accurate.

[Rachel Reeves]

Yes, we have put in a freedom of information request, because we did not think that the Secretary of State’s numbers were correct, and, as it turns out, they are not. The FOI request shows that with 194 out of 346 councils having responded so far, a staggering 21,500 people have been wrongly paying the bedroom tax, including 4,198 in Tory local authorities, so perhaps they have got their numbers wrong too. There are 275 in Tory Chester, 200 in Tory Peterborough, 234—

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[Mr Duncan Smith]

Yet again we hear from the hon. Lady a complete failure to mention the fact that in all her Government’s time in power, they did nothing for those who lived in overcrowded accommodation. A quarter of a million people were left to us who suffer every day because they cannot get the right rooms. One million people were left on the waiting list, and the house building programme fell to its lowest point since the 1920s. There is only one answer to her: sorting this out is the right thing to do, and shame on a Government who did nothing for those in greatest difficulty.

[Gareth Johnson (Dartford) (Con)]

T2. Will the Minister join me in welcoming the fall in unemployment in my constituency over the past three years? We now have about 2,500 more people in work than in 2010, benefiting young and old, those in full-time and part-time positions, and men and women. Does not this highlight how important it is for the Government to stick to their economic plans and ensure that the well-being of this country improves?

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[Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con)]

T4. The Minister will be aware of the 16% drop in unemployment in my constituency, along with the 34% drop in youth unemployment. Will he join me in welcoming the support of local businesses at our next annual Enfield jobs fair on 7 March, where employers are coming to support us in helping to find work for the unemployed?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I will do everything I can to make sure I am there to support my hon. Friend, who is also my parliamentary neighbour. He is right to say that what we have seen in the recent employment figures has happened only because we stuck to the course of our economic plan and because the welfare reforms are delivering more people into work. All that would be damaged if that lot were in power.

[Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab)]

T7. Two of my constituents—both of whom are UK citizens—went to other European Union countries to find work, but when those jobs ended and they came home they found they were no longer eligible to receive benefits in the UK. Did the Government mean to penalise UK citizens who go abroad to get off the UK unemployment register, and is not that exactly the wrong signal to give? Will the Secretary of State change the regulations?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

As the hon. Gentleman should know, we are bringing forward tougher sanctions on those who come here just to take benefits, rather than to work. Of course, British citizens working abroad are more likely to have gone abroad with a strong work record in the UK, so when they come back that is taken into account. If the hon. Gentleman is worried about a particular case, perhaps he would like to write to me and I will take it up. The sanctions are fair because they stop people coming to countries such as Britain just because they have better welfare systems than theirs.

[Mel Stride (Central Devon) (Con)]

T5. I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State on all the work he has put into getting people back into employment, but I was visited this weekend by one of my constituents, Paul Vachon, who has been unemployed for more than 12 months and is highly skilled. His major concern is that, because he is close to the point of retirement, his employability is diminished. What are the Government doing to encourage and support those such as Paul who are seeking jobs at the point when they are about to retire?

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[Lucy Powell (Manchester Central) (Lab/Co-op)]

Mr Speaker, you will remember that during exchanges at the last Work and Pensions questions, the Secretary of State said that Manchester had spent very little of its discretionary housing allocation. I wonder whether he wants to use this opportunity to clarify that allegation, given that only two days later, his Department granted Manchester city council an extra £200,000 of discretionary housing payment in recognition that its money was nearly spent.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I stand by the figures I gave the hon. Lady, and I also stand by the fact that Manchester—[Interruption.] No, the figures I gave her were the halfway cut for the year, when she said that it had already overspent—[Interruption.] No, she cannot run away from it. She said that it had overspent, and the reality is that it had not overspent. Since then, it has asked for more money. We have a pot, and we have allowed it to have more money. That is the point of the discretionary housing payment. Welcome to the world of decision making.

[Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD)]

My constituent Jane has been receiving treatment for cancer since her diagnosis last October, but she was wrongly told that she was excluded from applying for help unless she resigned from her job altogether or became pregnant. Will the Minister meet me to discuss Jane’s suggestions to improve how patients receiving treatment for serious illnesses are referred by the NHS towards help, such as personal independence payment, in the interests of joined-up government?

Oral Answers to Questions

Iain Duncan Smith Excerpts

Monday 13th January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con)]

13. What assessment he has made of recent trends in the award of discretionary housing payments.

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

Figures published in December show that in the first half of the financial year 2013-14 the average committed spend by local authorities was 40% of their allocated budget. Against those who had said that they were overspending, in fact it turns out that the vast majority are not.

[Bill Wiggin]

Will the Secretary of State explain the particular circumstances for people who have been on housing benefit constantly since 1996 in relation to discretionary housing payments?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Yes, this is a narrow but complicated area dating back to 1996 with the introduction of local reference rent rules. They were intended to offer transitional protection at that time for existing claimants, but they were not in any way time limited. There was another opportunity, in 2008, to change the regulations when the previous Government brought in local housing allowance. They were not adjusted then. This protection had been dormant for 17 years and not used. This is a complex area that we are now resolving, but I have to say that in three different Governments it has missed the attention of Ministers.

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

Some would have had us believe that the discretionary housing payment will run out very quickly and that people will be forced out of London to live elsewhere. Will the Secretary of State confirm that there was an underspend in discretionary housing payments of nearly £11 million, and that the claims of social cleansing from the Opposition were complete rubbish?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Yes, I can. The reality, as my hon. Friend says, is that last year about £11 million in underspends was returned to the Department. It is interesting to note the claims made by some in this House. The hon. Member for Manchester Central (Lucy Powell) said that the money in her area was fast running out. It turns out that, at the six-month cut, only 28% of discretionary housing payment has actually been used. In Nottingham South, only 33% has been used. The hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey) said that too much had been spent in Birmingham, Erdington, but only 47% has been used. Discretionary housing payments are there to be used to help those in the most difficult circumstances. Councils should get on and use them.

[Dr Thérèse Coffey]

My right hon. Friend may not be aware that Suffolk Coastal has used 60% of its budget after nine months and Waveney has used half its budget. Does he agree that that shows that discretionary budgets are working and that it is wrong to try to make political capital out of potentially very difficult human circumstances?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

It does. The reality is that about 71% have spent less than half of their discretionary budgets by the half-way cut of the year, and politicians should always be careful about using individual cases and making political capital out of what are often human tragedies.

[Lucy Powell (Manchester Central) (Lab/Co-op)]

The Secretary of State should be careful about throwing around accusations of incompetence in local authorities. I was going to ask a different question, but I want to put it on record, and reassure the Secretary of State, that Manchester city council will be spending all its discretionary housing payments and has recently applied for more. Will he accept that application for more funding?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The answer I gave previously was based on what the hon. Lady actually said previously, which was:

“The money is fast running out, if it has not already run out”.—[Official Report, 12 November 2013; Vol. 570, c. 838.]

At the six-month cut, Manchester city council had spent 28% of the discretionary payments. I suspect that, in reality, the hon. Lady was about to ask me about that, but realised that she could not because she had got it wrong.

[John Healey (Wentworth and Dearne) (Lab)]

What a lot of waffle in response to that planted question from the hon. Member for North Herefordshire (Bill Wiggin). The bulletin that the Secretary of State issued last week is a clear admission that he has been hitting thousands of people illegally with the bedroom tax since April. Is he aware of the latest survey from the Northern Housing Consortium, which says that nearly half of all front-line housing workers have dealt with someone who has threatened to commit suicide, largely because of the Government’s welfare changes? Will he apologise this afternoon to those people for the concern and chaos that he is causing?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I said it all right, and I say it again: the Department is, and I am, absolutely sorry that anybody may have been caught up in this who should not have been. However, what we were left by the last Government was this: 1,000 pages of complex housing benefit regulations. Under universal credit, they will be reduced to 300 pages and we will simplify them. The reality is that this is a problem of the massive complexity of housing benefit that the last Government left us, with a housing benefit bill that has been rising and that doubled in 10 years on the right hon. Gentleman’s watch.

[Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)]

Discretionary housing payments simply will not plug the gap for disadvantaged tenants in Scotland. Given that last week the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities published clear evidence showing that the policy is costing more to implement than it saves, will the Secretary of State finally accept that it has been a disaster and abandon it?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

What I never hear about from the other side of the House, including from the hon. Lady, is what was left to us, which is 250,000 people living in overcrowded accommodation. Nobody on the Opposition Benches ever speaks for them or for the 1 million people they left on waiting lists who cannot get into homes while the taxpayer subsidises people to live in homes that they do not fully occupy. I simply put it back to the hon. Lady: I wonder when she or Opposition Front Benchers will ever speak for those they left in terrible conditions in overcrowded accommodation.

[Heather Wheeler (South Derbyshire) (Con)]

24. As always when I talk about my wonderful South Derbyshire district council, I declare an interest: its leader is my husband. Does my right hon. Friend agree that good councils are spending the appropriate amount of money on this issue and that councils need to look at the systems they have to look after the most vulnerable people in our society?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

That is exactly the point. I am sure that the leader of South Derbyshire district council is doing almost as good a job as my hon. Friend did previously, although I leave her to sort that out with him later. The key thing is that discretionary housing payments are there to help the most vulnerable. Councils should use them. We have allocated an extra pot for those that think they might run over, so there is extra money to bid for, and we are happy to entertain those bids.

[Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)]

4. What recent estimate he has made of potential savings to the public purse arising from implementation of the benefit cap.

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

Capping benefit at average earnings is forecast, by reducing the large benefit amounts previously paid to households, to save £85 million this year and around £140 million next year. What is more, some 19,000 potentially capped claimants have moved into work, where paying tax and national insurance contributions brings a further benefit to the Exchequer.

[Andrew Bridgen]

Residents in my North-West Leicestershire constituency are doubly astonished, first, that more than 30,000 households were claiming more than £26,000 in benefits prior to the introduction of the cap and, secondly, that the Labour party completely failed to support the introduction of a cap at all. Will my right hon. Friend assure us that this Government will persevere with its benefits cap policy and review the level at which the cap is set—currently at considerably more than the average post-tax income in my constituency?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

My hon. Friend is not alone, when 73% of the public support the cap as it stands, as did nine out of 10 Londoners in a recent poll. It appears that the only people who do not support the cap are Labour Members. We will keep the policy under review, but the one thing we should celebrate is that we are reforming welfare to ensure that those who need the money get it, and those who do not get back to work.

[Mr Frank Field (Birkenhead) (Lab)]

When previous Governments changed benefits, they commissioned research to find out about the consequences. Given that we are talking about a benefit cut, is the Secretary of State in a position to tell us who is doing the research?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I am not sure from that whether the right hon. Gentleman supports the change or not. [Interruption.] He supports it—yet again a lone figure on his side, on which I congratulate him. We have carried out a whole load of revisions and changes, making sure that we watch implementation carefully. We carry out research constantly when it comes to the effects of all of our benefit changes. This one is an overall positive rather than a negative.

[Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab)]

5. What recent assessment he has made of Capita’s timescales for processing medical assessments for personal independence payments and providing them to his Department.

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[Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con)]

18. What plans he has for the habitual residence test.

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

Migrants must now meet a much tougher habitual residence test than before, showing the efforts they have made to find work before coming to the UK and that their English language skills are not a barrier to getting a job. They must also have been resident in the UK for three months before being able to access out-of-work benefits. We have plans to make it even stronger, by introducing a minimum earnings threshold, with tougher questions on whether work is genuine, and job seekers from the European economic area will not receive housing benefit.

[Nigel Mills]

I am grateful to the Secretary of State for that detailed answer. I urge him to go a bit further and listen to the representations he has received to extend the qualifying period for the habitual residence test, and make people have to be here for a year before they can get those benefits.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

As has been made clear beyond this Chamber, we are looking at that matter at the moment, and we have been discussing it with a number of other European nations, the vast majority of which are clear and with us on the idea that freedom of movement should not result in an opportunity for people to take benefits from wherever they want and to pick and choose their benefit areas. We are looking at how we can come to an agreement on those time scales and limits.

[Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab)]

19. What his most recent estimate is of the number of people who will be claiming universal credit by April 2014.

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

Based on caseload projections, we expect more than 6,000 claimants from the pathfinders to be on universal credit in January.

Beyond the pathfinder scheme and in the live running of universal credit, we are also rolling out other components, such as the claimant commitment. Jobcentre Plus advisers have agreed around 120,000 JSA claimant commitments, rising by some 30,000 each week. That continues our progressive approach to date, enabling a safe and successful delivery.

[Steve Rotheram]

The Secretary of State has made a pig’s ear of the roll-out of universal credit. Does he agree with his colleague, the Minister for the Cabinet Office, who claimed that the mess was all his fault?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Actually my right hon. Friend did not make that claim. If the hon. Gentleman had gone on with the quote, we would hear that he said:

“I’m a very strong supporter of what he is doing…and I’m absolutely confident that”

he is capable of implementing it.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

20. How many adults and young people have been helped to find employment by Kettering Jobcentre Plus in each of the last three years.

--- Later in debate ---

[Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)]

T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

I welcome industry figures that suggest that business hiring intentions are at their highest for two and a half years and that even more UK businesses are reporting that they intend to recruit in 2014. Those positive signs are backed up by the latest labour market statistics that show that more people are in private sector employment than ever before—up by more than 1.6 million since the general election.

[Neil Carmichael]

With the popularity of the Post Office in mind, does the Minister agree that the value of the Post Office card account is immense, benefiting some 2.9 million people? Will he think about extending it?

[Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab)]

We already know that 600,000 people are affected by the bedroom tax, two thirds of them are disabled and 60,000 are carers. Will the Secretary of State now tell the House exactly how many long-term residents have been wrongly paying the bedroom tax since April because the Government failed to spot a loophole in the legislation?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

We have already made it clear that the number is likely to be between 3,000 and 5,000, but we will be clearer about that when the local authorities, which are responsible for collecting the data, come forward with the final facts.

[Rachel Reeves]

The fact is that the Secretary of State has not got a clue. It could be 5,000 or it could be as many as 40,000 people, as reported by the experts. What a total shambles! Will the Secretary of State now guarantee that everybody who has been wrongly paying the bedroom tax will be reimbursed, and instead of closing the loophole, will the Government now do the right thing and scrap the bedroom tax?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Yet again, what we have from the hon. Lady is a moan about a policy that helps people in difficult circumstances. I said earlier that not once has she come to the Dispatch Box and said that she was concerned about those her party left behind living in overcrowded accommodation. Not once has she mentioned the 1 million on the waiting list or apologised for the fact that building levels for social housing fell to their lowest point since the ’20s. Of course we will look after those affected by the policy, but she must make it clear that she supports one of these policies; otherwise, there will be a total cost to the Exchequer. The shambles is on the Opposition’s part.

[Dr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con)]

T7. Will the Minister confirm that under the new system, 80% of individuals will be entitled to a full single-tier pension in their own right by 2030?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr David Crausby (Bolton North East) (Lab)]

T3. In response to an inquiry, the Department for Work and Pensions has confirmed to me that employers advertising vacancies on the Government’s jobmatch service must provide a full, clear and accurate job description. Does the Secretary of State agree that they should also make it clear when they are offering zero-hours contracts, rather than simply listing them as part time?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Of course, the key point is that all contracts must be clear from the beginning and every employee must know what contract they are on. A very small percentage of the population are on zero hours and great care is needed, as some jobs and some individuals prefer such contracts—as the hon. Gentleman’s Government found out when they were in power.

[Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con)]

T8. Will the Minister update the House on the progress in providing support for mesothelioma sufferers?

--- Later in debate ---

[Bill Wiggin (North Herefordshire) (Con)]

T9. Will the Secretary of State say how many fewer children there are in workless families since 2010?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The total figure for the fall in the number of workless households has been in the order of 17%. The position we inherited was that it had not fallen for 30 years and approximately 2.5 million children were living in such households. That number has fallen by several hundred thousand—a clear change and a clear improvement for the public and those going back to work.

[Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)]

T5. Can the Secretary of State guarantee that there will be no further delays to his roll-out of universal credit?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Universal credit is set to roll out according to the timetable I laid out the other day. We have been round this—[Interruption.] With respect, Mr Speaker, I know that Christmas is over but I think one of the pantomimes left its dame behind on the Opposition Front Bench. Universal credit will roll out in the time scales available and will be a major benefit to all those who come under it, including the constituents of the hon. Member for Blaenau Gwent (Nick Smith).

[Sir Andrew Stunell (Hazel Grove) (LD)]

Constituents of mine who face mandatory reconsideration are stuck with the possibility of a gap in their benefits until their tribunal hearing. I know that the Secretary of State is very keen to deal with that problem. Will he tell the House what further steps can be taken to protect my constituents?

--- Later in debate ---

[Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)]

Has the Secretary of State managed to watch programmes such as “Benefits Street” and “On Benefits & Proud”? If so, has he, like me, been struck by the number of people on them who manage to combine complaining about welfare reform with being able to afford to buy copious amounts of cigarettes, have lots of tattoos, and watch Sky TV on the obligatory widescreen television? Does he understand the concerns and irritation of many people who go to work every day and pay their taxes but cannot afford those kinds of luxuries?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

My hon. Friend is right: many people are shocked by what they see. That is why the public back our welfare reform package, which will get more people back to work and end these abuses. All these abuses date back to the last Government, who had massive spending and trapped people in benefit dependency.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

May I ask the Secretary of State to look carefully at his many policies that are delivered through intermediaries such as G4S, Capita and Atos? Are not many of those private sector providers deeply ineffective and inefficient? They cause many of my constituents great grief.

[Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con)]

In the Minister’s reply to my written question of 5 December, we learned that there was a prosecution in fewer than one in four of 45,000 cases of benefit fraud. Only 400 cases resulted in a prison sentence; the vast majority were handled through informal recovery processes. What proportion of the informal repayment arrangements are up to date, and does the Minister believe that increasing the incidence of prosecution would be helpful in reducing the incidence of benefit fraud?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

We have made great progress in pursuing more people than have ever been pursued before. The reality is that the amount got back from those who have been defrauding the state is better than it has been, but in the answer to which my hon. Friend refers, we made it clear that we have much more to do. It is the nature of many benefits that they are open to abuse; changes such as universal credit will simplify the process and give far less opportunity to those who would defraud the system. That is the right way to deal with the issue.

[Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)]

In Northern Ireland, 300,000 pensioners enjoy the winter fuel allowance. Will the Secretary of State confirm whether, if he is returned to office after the next election, that benefit will remain in place?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

It is this Government who have stood by that. The Prime Minister gave a pledge before the last election, and we intended to, and will, see that all the way to the election. As always, all further commitments will be made and published in the manifesto.

[Simon Kirby (Brighton, Kemptown) (Con)]

Can the Secretary of State confirm that universal credit will improve the lives of those in our poorest communities, including those of many people in Brighton, Kemptown?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I can indeed. Universal credit replaces the benefits that are most open to fraud, in many cases. Also, housing benefit doubled in value under the last Government; universal credit will deal with those problems, get things back into order, and provide an incentive to go back to work; that is the key thing. Getting people back to work, which the Opposition are not interested in, is the key element of welfare reform.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

Given this latest bedroom tax shambles, can the Secretary of State clarify whether he will write off, or seek repayment for, discretionary housing payments that have been made to those people who will now receive back payment of housing benefit?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I made it clear in my previous answer that I will be coming forward with full details about that, including the number of people affected.

[Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)]

I urge the Secretary of State to promote fairness for people on housing waiting lists, fairness for people in overcrowded accommodation, where children have to do their homework in the hallways, and fairness for hard-working people and their families when it comes to welfare tourism.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

That is exactly right. The reality that my hon. Friend has spotted is that the Opposition have voted against every single one of our welfare reforms. Not only would the welfare bill have been £45 billion higher under them, but more people would be out of work and they would have failed the British people.

[Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab)]

On the Work programme, can the Minister explain why Dundee is once again the least supported city in Scotland, with only 9.79% of people being helped back into work by the programme? Will she apologise to the people of Dundee and explain why 90% are still not being helped?

--- Later in debate ---

[Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab)]

A few moments ago the Secretary of State quoted the Minister for the Cabinet Office on universal credit, but he forgot to mention the part where the Minister called its implementation “lamentable” and said that a lot of money has been wasted. We also learned last week that the Cabinet Office withdrew the Government Digital Service from universal credit, a decision described as “disappointing” by the lead official. Why did the official describe it in such terms?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Yet again the Opposition are farming in and around old e-mails. The truth is that universal credit and the Cabinet Office are working together, with the Cabinet Office supporting us on the digital ask. The Minister for the Cabinet Office made it absolutely clear that that is where we are going. I know that in reality the Opposition do not support universal credit, but it would be better if they came clean: it will be delivered and they will be thankful in the end.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

Universal Credit

Iain Duncan Smith Excerpts

Tuesday 10th December 2013 Commons Chamber

[Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab)]

(Urgent Question): To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions if he will make a statement on universal credit.

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

This is a major and challenging reform which will transform the welfare state in Britain for the better, ultimately accounting for some £70 billion of benefit spending each year, with 3 million people better off.

Rightly for a programme of this scale, the Government’s priority has been, and continues to be, its safe and secure delivery. This has been demonstrated throughout our approach to date, which started with the successful launch of the pathfinder in April 2013 and has continued with the controlled expansion of universal credit, starting as planned in October 2013 and running through to spring 2014. What is more, we are already pushing ahead with the cultural and business change required as part of universal credit. We are retraining 25,000 Jobcentre Plus advisers while implementing digital jobcentres and rolling out the new claimant commitment, which is now on track to be in place in half of all jobcentres by the end of the year, and across the country by the spring.

Yesterday I announced and discussed at length with the Work and Pensions Committee our plans for the next stage of implementing universal credit, following my Department’s work over recent months with the Government Digital Service to assess delivery options. That work has explored the use of the latest digital technologies and assessed the utility of the work we have done to date—[Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. The Secretary of State is well able to make himself heard, and he is doing so, but it is frankly discourteous, when he is giving a statement to the House, for it to be peppered with constant heckling. Members will have the chance to question the right hon. Gentleman, but please do him the courtesy of hearing what he has to say.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The conclusions of this work were set out yesterday. First, as part of the wider transformation in developing digital services, the Department will further develop the work started by the GDS to test and implement an enhanced digital service. This will be capable of delivering the full scope of universal credit and make provision for all claimant types.

Meanwhile, we will expand our current service and develop functionality so that from next summer we progressively start to take claims for universal credit from couples and, in the autumn, from families. Once safely tested in the 10 live universal credit areas, we will expand the roll-out to cover the north-west of England. This will enable us to learn from the live running of universal credit at scale and for more claimant types, including the more vulnerable and the more complex, while extending to more people the positive benefits of universal credit.

It is important to note that the information that we are getting back from the pathfinder tells that 90%—I stress, 90%—of people are claiming universal credit online and that 78% are confident about their ability to budget with monthly payments. It also tells us— [Interruption.] I know that Labour Members do not want to hear about this, because they have been wrong on welfare reform from day one. The majority of people who are on the programme tell us that it pays to work, with 65% to 70% reporting that universal credit offers better work incentives than jobseeker’s allowance and is less complex—upheld by the 65% who agreed that it was easier to understand their obligations as a result.

As we progress with the future delivery of this flagship programme, we will continue the same careful approach—test, learn, implement—as it is rolled out through the regions. On this basis—[Interruption.] Actually, I am going to pick this point up. The shadow Chancellor is sitting on the Opposition Front Bench. I will tell you, Mr Speaker, what we will not do: we will not take any lessons from the party that rolled out tax credits early. It rushed the delivery of tax credits, which cost £5 billion immediately and 400,000 people suffered directly as a result.

Once we have closed down the new claims, we will test, learn and implement—unlike Labour when it rolled out its information technology programmes. The new claims to the legacy benefits that universal credit replaced have been closed down, with the vast majority of the remaining legacy case load moving to universal credit during 2016 and into 2017. Final decisions on these elements of the programme will be informed by the development of the enhanced digital solution.

[Rachel Reeves]

On 5 September, the Secretary of State told the House:

“We will deliver this in time and in budget”.—[Official Report, 5 September 2013; Vol. 567, c. 472.]

On 14 October, he said:

“Universal credit will roll out very well and it will be on time and within budget.”—[Official Report, 14 October 2013; Vol. 568, c. 429.]

And just last month, on 18 November, he said that

“universal credit will roll out and deliver exactly as we said it would.”—[Official Report, 18 November 2013; Vol. 570, c. 947.]

The Secretary of State must answer these questions. How on earth can this be on time when in November 2011 he said that

“all new applications for existing benefits and credits will be entirely phased out by April 2014”,

but we now learn that this milestone will be reached only in 2016? Will the Secretary of State confirm that this is a delay of two years? Will he also confirm that, even by 2017, 700,000 people will not be on universal credit?

How can the Secretary of State say that universal credit will be on budget when, even by his own admission, £40.1 million is being written off on IT costs? What budget heading was that under? The Secretary of State also revealed yesterday that another £90 million will be written off by 2018. Does this mean an additional IT system is having to be built?

The reset exercise began in February. On 18 November, the Secretary of State still claimed that there would be no delay to universal credit. At what point did he learn that there would be a delay of two years?

The underlying problem is surely that the Secretary of State has not resolved key policy decisions before spending hundreds of millions of pounds of taxpayers’ money on an IT system.

One of the issues that has a fundamental impact on whether people are better off in work is free school meals; so which recipients of universal credit will get free school meals—some, none or all?

The Secretary of State is in denial. Doubtless, he will deny that he is in denial in a moment’s time. But we all know that until he fesses up, no one will have any confidence in his management of this programme. It is no surprise that a source close to the Chancellor says:

“There are some ministers who improve in office and others, like IDS, who show that they are just not up to it”.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Let me deal with a couple of the points raised by the hon. Lady. I said all along, and I repeat, that this programme essentially is going to be on time. By 2017, some 6.5 million people will be on the programme, receiving the benefits.

Let me deal with the hon. Lady’s comments about what is written down and what is written off. For somebody who was supposed to have been working for the Bank at one point, she does not seem to know the difference between equipment of no use that is being written off and equipment—this is the case in any company over a period of time—that is written down each year. That is exactly right. If she drives a motor car, I wonder whether she has noticed that, over a period of years, its value actually depreciates. Perhaps she has not; perhaps she is still trying to sell the car for the same value she bought it for.

The reality is very simple. Let us take the legacy systems right now. The legacy computer systems that are working were written down years ago, but they are still delivering value to the Government by delivering benefits. Maybe the hon. Lady needs a teach-in about the difference between written-off equipment and written-down equipment.

I want to deal with one other point that is quite clear and is the reality. We have been clear—[Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. Mr Irranca-Davies, you have a beautiful voice, with very mellifluous tones. One disadvantage for you is that when it is loud, I can very easily hear it—some miles off, I think. We need to hear a bit less of it for the time being.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

We do not take any lessons from the Opposition about computer failure: the tax credit system crashed, the health system crashed and they lost billions and billions of pounds while the shadow Chancellor was at the right hand of the then Chancellor, the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown).

I might also say that although the Opposition have asked an urgent question on universal credit today, the truth is that they are themselves in denial about the legacy of welfare failure they left us. Welfare spending increased by 60% in real terms under the previous Government—£3,000 a year for every household in Britain. More than £170 billion was spent on tax credits alone. There were 5 million on out-of-work benefits, and nearly a quarter of working-age people were economically inactive.

This Government have already saved £11 billion on the welfare bill, £48 billion over this Parliament. The Office for Budget Responsibility has confirmed that welfare bills will fall in real terms to below the level at which we received them. Employment is up by more than 1 million. More households are now in work than ever before, with the lowest proportion of children living in workless households since records began. Child poverty is at its lowest level since the 1990s, and pensioner poverty is at its lowest for almost 30 years.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

Is not a phased roll-out of the new universal credit system far better than incurring the £2.8 billion of waste through fraud, error and overpayment incurred by the previous Government in their tax credit system?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The Opposition want to talk about universal credit, but the reality is that, unlike tax credits, it will roll out without damaging a single person, and it will also deliver massive benefits, under control by our test, learn and implement approach. The waste that we inherited was the waste of people who did not listen, rushed programmes and implemented them badly.

[Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State promised that universal credit would be digital by default—it isn’t; he promised that all new claims would be on universal credit by May 2014—they won’t; and he then promised that 10 areas would be assessing the simplest claims by the end of October—they aren’t; so why should anyone believe him when he says that the delivery of universal credit is now on track?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The proof of this will be as we roll out the programme. I say to the Chair of the Select Committee that we intervened early when there were problems. We did not let this programme roll out so that anybody was damaged, unlike the Government whom she served, who rushed IT programmes into service, damaged vast numbers of people and wasted a huge amount of money. I wonder whether the Chair of the Work and Pensions Committee ever asked the shadow Chancellor or the previous Prime Minister why they did that.

[Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD)]

Will the Secretary of State confirm that he has seen the Public Accounts Committee report of 7 November and will take notice of its recommendations, which should be helpful in executing this vital project?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I can tell my hon. Friend that all the recommendations have already been implemented. They were drawn from our own reports internally—both the red team report that I instigated and the PricewaterhouseCoopers report—and all these changes have been made. This roll-out programme bears complete authority on the basis of that.

[Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab)]

Yesterday, the Secretary of State claimed that 700,000 people would now not be expected to join universal credit by 2017 because he was having a rethink and wanted to introduce things more slowly for vulnerable claimants. However, on 18 November—three weeks ago—he said to my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen South (Dame Anne Begg):

“As I said to the hon. Lady when I appeared in front of her Committee in July, we have been very clear that we would roll out universal credit on the plan and programme already set out.”—[Official Report, 18 November 2013; Vol. 570, c. 946.]

Which is it?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The funny thing about the Opposition is that they do not know what they want. They say that they support universal credit—[Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I know that there are strong views on this matter, but the House must calm down. Courtesy is necessary on both sides. Let us hear the Secretary of State.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Do the Opposition want us to rush out universal credit, as they did with tax credits, or do they want us to take our time to implement it correctly? The reason we are not moving the support group and the work-related activity group on from employment and support allowance is that they are very vulnerable. We want to take our time so that those who are on those benefits are brought on to universal credit carefully. It seems that the hon. Lady’s party wants to rush those people on as fast as possible, rather like what it did with tax credits.

[Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)]

Is it not the case that under the last Government, 1.4 million people spent—[Interruption.]

[Robert Halfon]

Is it not the case that under the last Government, 1.4 million people spent a decade out of work on benefits and 2.6 million people spent five years out of work on benefits? Is it not also the case that universal credit will get people out of dependency and back into work, that it will eliminate the poverty trap, and that 90% of people on benefits will be on universal credit by the end of 2016?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Universal credit is worth doing properly because of the benefits it brings to so many people. Just in case he does not remember, although the Opposition say that they support it, they voted against it. We will take no lessons from them because of the chaos, mess and cost that they left for us in the welfare system. We are having to pick up the details of that and put them right. We are doing that every day.

[Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State says that he has read and implemented the report of the Public Accounts Committee, which confirmed that the Department

“only reported good news and denied the problems”.

Unfortunately, we have seen no change today. A specific recommendation of the report was that the Government should urgently carry out an impairment review into the value of the IT assets that had been written down as a result of ineffectualness. As he has confirmed today that the recommendations have all been implemented, will he tell us what that value was according to his own impairment review?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The Department has carried out probably the most exhaustive impairment review. It is now being signed off by the National Audit Office. I gave the figures to the Work and Pensions Committee yesterday. The total write-off figure was £40.1 million. We should bear it in mind that Opposition Front Benchers have been running around saying that hundreds and hundreds of millions of pounds will be written off. They will not be. That will be in the published accounts today.

[Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con)]

May I remind the Secretary of State that when he came to office, it was possible for claimants, on returning to work, to lose 96p of every £1 that they earned? The prize for his universal credit system is to make work pay. It is not only Government Members who will support him for sticking with it, but those who are seeking to return to work, because it will help to make work pay.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

In more than 10 years in government, the last lot never did a thing to improve the quality of life for those who were seeking work. So far, we have more people in work and we have systems of change that will improve the quality of life of those who are disabled and those who are on sickness benefit. Universal credit will complete that process. It is no surprise to me that the Opposition have nothing to say on welfare reform, but want to nit-pick away about this programme.

[Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)]

The implementation of universal credit has been a complete fiasco right from the start. Given the delays that there have already been and the clear indication from the Scottish Government that they would halt the roll-out in Scotland in the event of a yes vote in next year’s referendum, will the Secretary of State suspend the roll-out of universal credit to allow the people of Scotland to deliver their verdict?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I have heard what the Scottish National party has said. All I would say is that it is in complete denial about the cost of welfare and pensions. The reality is that it will not be able to afford the pensions bill with Scotland’s demographic make-up, and welfare alone will cost it a large amount of money. I do not know where it thinks it will get the money from if Scotland breaks free from the United Kingdom.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)]

The people of Somerset think that it is the mark of a statesman to take a deliberative and intelligent approach to these problems, and not to rush the process in a typical socialist fashion. I wonder whether my right hon. Friend agrees with me that his critics have forgotten to read their Bible and do not remember the line on motes and beams. Although there may be the tiniest specks in his proposals, there was a veritable forest in their IT suggestions.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I always do my level best to agree with my hon. Friend. He talks common sense whenever he rises to his feet and today is no different.

[Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab)]

How confident is the Secretary of State that the system will be able to deal with people who live in such unusual circumstances as being in a couple or having children?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The system will roll out for all the complicated groups right the way through until we have 6.5 million on it. There were some reports in today’s papers that were wrong. The pathfinder rolled out to singles to begin with. Next it goes on to couples, then to couples with children, then we bring in the more complicated groups and then we bring in the tax credit group. I simply say to the hon. Lady that she needs to understand the difference between an approach that rolls something out at every stage and learns from it, and the approach that Labour took on tax credits, which was to rush them in and see them fail.

[Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)]

Does the Secretary of State agree that any short-term costs and delays in simplifying the welfare system are completely and utterly outweighed by the long-term benefits for taxpayers and claimants?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I agree with my hon. Friend. He is absolutely right.

[Glenda Jackson (Hampstead and Kilburn) (Lab)]

The Work and Pensions Committee, right from the beginning of the introduction of universal credit, has warned the Secretary of State that this is one of the most complex systems to be introduced. Consistently, the Secretary of State has reassured the Select Committee and this House that everything is fine. We now know that he has failed to meet every single one of the targets that he assured us he would meet. The issue is not the people on these Benches or on the Benches opposite; the issue is our constituents who will be dependent on universal credit. The Secretary of State should stand at the Dispatch Box, apologise for the anxiety in which he has placed our constituents and try to give a straight answer to a very simple question, but that answer must be verifiable. When will universal credit be introduced for all relevant claimants?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

To deal with the first part of what the hon. Lady said, the reason we are proceeding like this—testing, learning and then implementing—is to ensure that nobody so far has been damaged at all by the changes brought in under universal credit. I repeat again that I learned my lesson from the last Government, who rolled out tax credits in a rush, all at once. The system crashed, £5 billion was lost and 400,000 people were damaged. The then Prime Minister, Mr Blair, had to go out and apologise publicly for the mess they had got in. I am saying today that we will roll this out and 6.5 million people will be on the system by 2017.

[Mr David Ruffley (Bury St Edmunds) (Con)]

The Secretary of State has the wholehearted support of those on the Government Benches because his reforms are the most beneficial reforms to the welfare system since its inception. The Labour party in government, across the whole of their Departments in 13 years, blew £25 billion on failed IT systems. Does not history therefore suggest that the best way to proceed with IT projects of the important kind that my right hon. Friend is engaged with is to do it patiently and gradually, and not to rush our fences?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

My hon. Friend is right. The way we have chosen to do this is to ensure that we test, learn and implement as we go along. This is exactly how we are rolling out the other programmes of change on disability living allowance and the personal independence payment, on the Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission, and on the cap, all of which are now bringing benefits to many people throughout the country. The previous Government wasted £13 billion on the NHS computer system and £500 million on the Child Support Agency mess, including £120 million on the rescue scheme which was later scrapped. The benefits processing replacement programme, which some of those on the Opposition Benches were responsible for, was axed after £140 million of waste.

[Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab)]

Does the Secretary of State think he has the confidence of Treasury Ministers, given that as my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves), the shadow Secretary of State, told him, a Minister close to the Chancellor told The Times this morning:

“There are some ministers who improve in office”,

and there are those, like the Secretary of State,

“who show they are just not up to it”?

[Interruption.] No answer was given. How can a project of this scale be taken forward without the Secretary of State having the confidence of the Treasury?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

We have the confidence of the Treasury.

[David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)]

Such programmes are highly complex, involving many hundreds, if not thousands, of man-years of work—probably more complex than delivering the Olympics. Given that the Opposition apparently support the programme’s objectives, does the Secretary of State understand why they have spent the past three quarters of an hour undermining the project team?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

My hon. Friend again raises the point that the Opposition talk a lot about supporting universal credit but they voted against it. They have nothing to say about welfare reform. That is the problem. Up till now, they have failed on welfare reform. They are known as the welfare party because they have opposed everything that we have brought in. We will save more than £40 billion over this Parliament. They have opposed everything, which would cost them an extra £40 billion if they were to get into power.

[Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)]

Given the shambles that exists here in Britain in relation to the implementation of universal credit, why are the Government so intent on imposing this unfair welfare system in Northern Ireland, where levels of disadvantage are higher, the cost of living is higher, and jobs, including new jobs, are particularly scarce?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Welfare reform would benefit Northern Ireland as much as it is benefiting the UK. I suggest that the hon. Lady and her colleagues get on and implement it.

[Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con)]

Will my right hon. Friend confirm to the House that universal credit will save £100 million in 2014-15 and £200 million in 2015-16? Will he also confirm that universal credit is currently handling complicated cases?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

My hon. Friend will see from the published accounts that the National Audit Office agrees that the proposed roll-out, which will go ahead, will in every single year save money, ultimately to the Exchequer. The point that is being made is that the net value of the asset of £152 million that we have will deliver huge benefits to the public and huge savings to the Government.

[Andy McDonald (Middlesbrough) (Lab)]

Did the Secretary of State or any of his Ministers try to apply pressure to any member of the Public Accounts Committee in the formulation of its report on the implementation of universal credit?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

No.

[Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con)]

Fraud, error and overpayment led to £2.8 billion being wasted during the introduction of tax credits by the previous Government. Has my right hon. Friend made an assessment of how much has been lost during the phased introduction of universal credit to fraud, error and overpayment?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

There is no money lost to fraud, error and overpayment under the universal credit system. As we roll it out, the system itself will save a huge amount in fraud and error on the current system, which is a mess. The level of overpayments and clawbacks of tax credits every single year is a scandal; the scandal is that the policy and the programme left to us by the Opposition, which has been failing every year, is costing huge sums of money.

[Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)]

The Secretary of State has been very keen to talk about what the previous Government did, but he is in charge now and he was in charge of one of the worst possible procurement processes in government. He has not yet told the House what will happen to the employment support group. It is batted off into the long grass. They are a very vulnerable group of people. Will they have to live through a similar shambles when he comes up with a solution for them?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Quite the contrary; I have made it very clear that by 2016 universal credit will be the benefit that people go on when they apply for employment and support allowance. The people who were on it—we know them as the stock—are the most vulnerable. [Interruption.] Well, that is the term used—those are people who are on the benefit at present. [Interruption.] How pathetic is that? The Opposition used the term themselves when they were in government, and now they try to pretend that they have discovered a new way of referring to such people. Those who are on employment and support allowance will be migrated to universal credit over a period so that we can bring them in safely, securely and to their benefit. Would the hon. Lady want us to rush them in, or does she think we ought to take care over how we do it?

[Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con)]

The mission of universal credit has always been to make work pay. I have never entirely understood what it is about that principle that the Opposition find so distasteful. Many of my constituents constantly remind me of the problem that they have under the current system. Surely all Members should be backing the roll-out of universal credit. Today we have heard that there are some problems, that they are being tackled and that the size of the gain is enormous. Will my right hon. Friend confirm for everyone, but particularly for Opposition Members, who seem so opposed to universal credit, what the total economic gain to the people of this country will be over the next 10 years?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The gains will be enormous. The roll-out has already begun. The question is not whether it will begin; it has already begun. We have already rolled out universal credit to pilot centres in the north-west. We are rolling out to a further six centres. That will be complete early in the new year, then we will bring in couples, couples with children, and eventually the tax credits. We will roll out completely in the north-west, then every region after that. It will be complete by 2016. This will bring huge benefits to all those who struggle under the existing system to make work pay. If they lose 6p in every pound, it is hardly worth while. That is the system that the Opposition left.

[Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)]

If these plans for universal credit cannot be underpinned by a credible, working IT system by this time next year, will it be the Secretary of State’s fault or will he blame someone else?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I take full responsibility for everything in the Department and there will progressively be an IT system that rolls out this programme. It will deliver, and I rather hope that by the time of the next election the Opposition come back and say sorry.

[Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

Did my right hon. Friend listen to the “Today” programme yesterday, when the hon. Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves) repeatedly made it clear that the Opposition support the introduction of universal credit? Does he not consider it strange that not once did she make that clear in the House today? Does he not think it strange to support universal credit on the airwaves but seek to rubbish it here? If the Opposition really do support the introduction of universal credit, surely they want to see it introduced properly.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

My hon. Friend is right. The problem is that the hon. Lady went touring around all the studios, also saying that we would be writing off hundreds of millions of pounds. She is wrong on that. I see she has dropped that today, but the point is that the Opposition have nothing to say about this, so they want to pick away at a plan which, apparently, they support. [Interruption.] When you support something, you support it. They actually oppose it. [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. Mr Robertson, your voice is substantially louder than that of your hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies). I do not wish to be unkind, but it is not always quite as mellifluous.

[Mrs Anne McGuire (Stirling) (Lab)]

On 11 September 2012, the Secretary of State said:

“For what it is worth, I take absolute, direct and close interest in every single part of the IT development.”—[Official Report, 11 September 2012; Vol. 550, c. 154.]

He said he held meetings and briefings, and worked on it at weekends from his box. He also said,

“we are testing stuff”—

I think that is a technical term—

“pretty much the whole time.”—[Official Report, 11 September 2012; Vol. 550, c. 157.]

Given that 15 months ago he was taking such a personal interest in that, why is he still in his job and facing this shambles today?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Because back in 2011-12, as a result of that work, I decided there were problems in the way the system was being developed, so I intervened and brought in a group of people from outside to look at it. They agreed with me and we have since reset the programme. The truth is that Labour never did any of that when in government, and the right hon. Lady needs to ask herself, why not?

[Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)]

I urge my right hon. Friend to reject the representations of Labour Members, who the whole House can see do not really believe in making work pay, and who long for universal credit to fail. Has he noticed that the write-offs are about one tenth of a per cent. of the £26 billion of taxpayers’ money wasted by the Opposition?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

My hon. Friend is right. Again and again what is going on is a kind of hypocrisy, with Labour Members somehow claiming that they did things properly. They never did; they lost billions and billions on programmes, whether in the Ministry of Defence or in my Department. We have been picking up the pieces and putting it right.

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

After today, does the Secretary of State honestly believe that he has any credibility left?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I have more credibility than the Labour party, which wasted money galore. My answer is that I will deliver this and we are already delivering welfare reforms—[Interruption.] The right hon. Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms) needs to remember that he was in a Government who watched welfare spending rise by 60% under their watch.

[Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con)]

Although writing off anything is disappointing, will the Secretary of State confirm whether he has analysed what a comparable write-off would be for schemes in the public and private sector elsewhere?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Duncan Smith]

In the private sector, programmes allow up to 30% or 40% for write-downs and reworks, which is well within the amount we have written down. I believe that this programme will roll out more efficiently than almost any other programme in the private sector.

[Teresa Pearce (Erith and Thamesmead) (Lab)]

In yesterday’s Work and Pensions Committee, the DWP finance director general stated that £303 million has so far been spent on developing IT. We have heard that £40 million has been written off as it could not be capitalised because it had no use, and that £97 million was capitalised and written down. That leaves a further £107 million of IT expenditure that was not capitalised as it has no useful software. Will the Secretary of State confirm that of the £303 million spent, only £97 million has resulted in useable software?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The hon. Lady, of course, misrepresents the position. [Interruption.] The money that we were talking about yesterday, the write-offs, is for technology that will not be used, and the write-down is equipment we will be using over the next 12 months. The other value she mentioned is for equipment that will be written down over a period of years, once we start to use it. We cannot write it down until it is actually in use.

[Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con)]

The situation is that welfare required reform and, as my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Richard Graham) made clear, work was not paying. I welcome the phased roll-out of universal credit, but I am still at a loss as to the Labour position. Can the Secretary of State advise my constituents in Northumberland why he chose to test, learn and then roll out a project of such a large scale that it will be truly transformative?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

That is exactly right. The point is that we intervened early when we thought there was a problem, and we did not deliberately drive it through to roll-out. Quite frankly, we will have got this right because, unlike Labour, we are testing the system and learning first, and then finally implementing it. My hon. Friend is right: we have no idea what Labour Members really want. They just want to criticise but they have no other proposals.

[Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)]

Will the Secretary of State tell the House how many children will qualify for free school meals in households in receipt of universal credit?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Everybody now in receipt of free school meals will be eligible for them as we roll out universal credit, and the changes that are necessary in universal credit will be made apparent as we come to do that. I guarantee that nobody will lose out with free school meals.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

In response to the hon. Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie), the Secretary of State referred to Northern Ireland, which is very much a part of the United Kingdom. The Northern Ireland Assembly is currently discussing welfare reform legislation, and the Executive have been told there will be financial implications on the block grant for every month that changes are delayed, starting from January 2014. IT affects all of the United Kingdom. What implications does the delay in putting IT in place have for welfare reform in Northern Ireland?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The hon. Gentleman refers to the fact that we need to get welfare reform rolled out in Northern Ireland, which I fundamentally believe is the right thing to do. His point, I think, concerns what the Chief Secretary has said, because if we do not roll out welfare reform in Northern Ireland, it has a net cost to the Exchequer. That is why a balance must be found—we need to roll out welfare reform to save money, otherwise that will affect spending in Northern Ireland.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

Universal Credit

Iain Duncan Smith Excerpts

Thursday 5th December 2013 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

Today I announce our plans for the next stage of implementing universal credit.

Universal credit is a major reform which will transform the welfare state in Britain for the better. Once fully implemented, universal credit will account for £70 billion of benefit spending each year, and bring a £38 billion economic benefit to society over 10 years.

Rightly for a programme of this scale, the Government’s priority has been, and continues to be, its safe and secure delivery. This has already been demonstrated in our approach to date, which started with the successful launch of the pathfinder six months earlier than planned in April 2013, and has continued with the controlled expansion of universal credit, starting in October 2013 and running through to spring 2014.

Furthermore, we are already pushing ahead with the cultural and business change required as part of universal credit: retraining 25,000 Jobcentre Plus advisers; delivering 11 in-work progression pilots; and rolling out the new claimant commitment, which is on track to be in place in all jobcentres by March 2014.

Over recent months the Department has worked with the Government Digital Service to assess the options for the next stage of universal credit delivery. That work has explored the use of the latest digital technologies and also assessed the utility of the work we have done to date, through the universal credit pathfinder, going forward.

Today I can announce the conclusions from this work:

As part of the wider transformation in the development of digital services, the Department will further develop the work started by the Government Digital Services to test and implement an enhanced online digital service, which will be capable of delivering the full scope of universal credit and make provision for all claimant types.

Meanwhile, we will expand our current pathfinder service and develop functionality so that from next summer we progressively start to take claims for universal credit from couples and, in the autumn, from families. Once safely tested in the 10 live universal credit areas, we will also expand the roll-out to cover more of the north-west of England. This will enable us to learn from the live running of universal credit at scale and for more claimant types, including the more vulnerable and complex.

These steps continue our progressive approach—test, learn, implement—as we deliver this flagship programme.

Our current planning assumption is that the universal credit service will be fully available in each part of Great Britain during 2016, having closed down new claims to the legacy benefits it replaced; with the majority of the remaining legacy case load moving to universal credit during 2016 and 2017. Final decisions on these elements of the programme will be informed by the development of the enhanced digital solution.

Oral Answers to Questions

Iain Duncan Smith Excerpts

Monday 18th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

Recent poll findings show that of those notified or aware that they would be affected by the cap, three in 10 took action to find work. To date, almost 36,000 have accepted help to move into work from Jobcentre Plus and around 18,000 potentially capped claimants have moved into work.

[Mr Syms]

Jobcentre Plus in Dorset worked extremely hard to identify those affected and to get them into employment. What assessment has my right hon. Friend made of the impact of that on the recent encouraging employment figures?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I give credit to Jobcentre Plus for the action that it took, which sometimes goes unnoticed, when it knew that this policy was coming in. From April 2012, it wrote to potentially affected people with advance warning. It set up a helpline on the benefit cap and an online calculator so that they could work out some of the figures themselves. It then telephoned some of the most vulnerable, and visited them as well. It set up funding for intensive employment support and worked with local authorities to support claimants in budgeting, housing and child care, and big employment events. This is one of major reasons why about 61% of those who moved into work did so after they were notified.

[Mr Julian Brazier (Canterbury) (Con)]

I congratulate my right hon. Friend on this, and I assure him that in an area such as mine, which includes the ward with the highest level of child poverty in the south-east region, my constituents welcome the fact that we really are trying to encourage people who have been far too long on benefits to look for options to work. The news that he has just announced is what is needed.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I agree with my hon. Friend. The reality is that of more than 19,000 householders capped in mid-September 2013, 60% were lone parents and 78% were capped by £100 or less a week. This is a system that is returning fairness to the whole programme. The Opposition opposed the cap, and it is worth remembering that even though the trade union leaders opposed it, 80% of Unite members support our policy on welfare reform, as I discovered from a poll the other day.

[Mr Steve Reed (Croydon North) (Lab)]

6. What progress he has made on delivering his target of 160,000 Youth Contract wage incentives by April 2015; and if he will make a statement.

--- Later in debate ---

[Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)]

16. When he expects all new claimants to be on universal credit across the UK.

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

Within the time scales set out, our priority is to deliver universal credit safely and securely, and we will set out our plans in more detail in a couple of weeks.

[Emily Thornberry]

Why did the Secretary of State tell the House last month that his plans for universal credit were on track?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

As I said in my earlier answer, I ordered a reset so that we do not have difficulties when we start to roll out the scheme. We have rolled out the pathfinder already. It is important to note that there have been at least six sites from October, and there will be many more around the country when we expand that. As I said, I will make clear to the House the plan and programme for the full roll-out, all the way through to complete delivery, in detail in the next couple of weeks.

[Nick Smith]

The Public Accounts Committee found that leadership of the universal credit programme was hapless. Will the Secretary of State tell us who is responsible for that blunder?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I already take full responsibility for everything that goes on in my Department. I have to say that I take responsibility for making sure that universal credit as originally planned was stopped and reset. Before anybody was affected, we made absolutely sure that when we roll it out, as we have begun and will continue to do, it will deliver maximum benefits of more than £38 billion to the public.

I take no lessons from the Opposition, who spent years rolling out programmes regardless of how they affected people—a disaster on IT for tax credits and a disaster on the health service. A little bit of humble pie on their part might not be a bad thing.

[Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab)]

The pathfinder mentioned by the Secretary of State was meant to include 10 separate Jobcentre Plus areas by October this year, but only one has come on line, in addition to those already in place, so there has been a further slowing down of the roll-out of universal credit. Indeed, the ones assessed have been the very simplest cases. When will the Department deliver on its original timetable, far less on any speeded-up timetable?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

As I said to the hon. Lady when I appeared in front of her Committee in July, we have been very clear that we would roll out universal credit on the plan and programme already set out. The pathfinders are on track. Those before Christmas and those after Christmas are on track—[Interruption.] Yes they are. It is not just the pathfinder centres; we already have a huge amount of change. We are putting 6,000 new computers into jobcentres to be ready for universal credit, and we are training 25,000 jobcentre staff to ensure that they are ready for its delivery. We are on track to make sure that universal credit—the bit that follows next—can use those pathfinders to deliver a universal credit programme that works, unlike so many of the programmes that the previous Government used.

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

Dear, dear, dear. [Interruption.] No, the report does not say that; I can tell you what it does say. It says that, precisely in the Government’s timetable, from October 2013

“All new claims for out-of-work support are treated as claims to Universal Credit.”

That has not happened, has it? The Secretary of State is not on time, he is not on budget, and it looks as if he is going to lose £140 million. The first step to recovery is owning up that you are sick. You are not on time, you are not on budget—are you?

[Mr Speaker]

I am always on time. Let us hear from the Secretary of State.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Mr Speaker, you are not only on time, but you are always on budget.

That was a lot of sound and fury from the hon. Gentleman, signifying absolutely nothing. The reality is, as I have said quite categorically and publicly, the report could be written because of the actions I took over a year ago to ensure that universal credit will roll out and deliver exactly as we said it would. The hon. Gentleman served for I do not know how many years in a Government who allowed all these other programmes to fail, but not one person will be adversely affected by the change we have made. Universal credit will deliver maximum benefits to the British public, and the Opposition will remain out of government, because they have not a single clue.

[Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD)]

12. What plans he has to introduce the payment of pensions and benefits and begin accepting applications for universal credit through the Post Office.

--- Later in debate ---

[Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con)]

23. What recent steps his Department has taken to support care leavers.

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend’s work on the all-party group on financial education for young people. Last month, we launched the cross-departmental care leavers strategy, brokered through the Cabinet Committee on Social Justice, to ensure that for the first time pooled resources from education, employment, health, housing and justice will be tailored to the challenge facing a group of young people for too long left to struggle alone.

[Fiona Bruce]

Does the Secretary of State agree that equipping young people in general and care leavers in particular to manage their own finances well is a vital tool? What are the Government doing to address this matter, as recommended by the report of the all-party group on financial education for young people?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Again, I congratulate my hon. Friend, because we will definitely be considering this next recommendation of hers. I have listened and read her suggestions, and we have actually managed to alter the new curriculum. The final version will now state that

“the functions and uses of money, the importance and practice of budgeting, and managing risk…income and expenditure, credit and debt, insurance, savings and pensions, financial products and services”

will be taught as part of the curriculum for the first time.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

25. What steps he is taking to improve the quality of medical services reports on claimants of benefits.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)]

T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

Today I welcome the latest labour market statistics. We have seen the largest annual drop in the claimant count for 15 years. Almost every area in Britain has seen the number of people claiming jobseeker’s allowance fall over the last year, contributing to a total fall in worklessness of more than 500,000 since 2010, while there are now more than 1 million more in work. All this is a testament, I believe, to this Government’s success in getting Britain working again.

[Andrew Bridgen]

Few would disagree that careers advice in schools needs improvement. Given that unemployment is now down to 2.6% in my constituency, does my right hon. Friend agree that Jobcentre Plus is well placed—it has the resources and the local knowledge —to deliver part of that improvement, preferably in conjunction with local employers?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I congratulate my hon. Friend and his area on having an unemployment rate of 2.6%, which is testimony to the efforts this Government are making. Schools obviously have a legal duty to secure independent careers guidance for their pupils, and employers have to work with them, but it is also a fact that Jobcentre Plus has a careers guidance programme. We are now in talks with the schools to ensure that somehow we can connect would-be school leavers, long before they leave school, with companies and businesses, to tell them exactly what they need to have and what skills they will need to obtain.

[Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab)]

This weekend it was reported that Atos had pulled out of a DWP contract providing specialist disability advice. What was the Department’s response? An internal memo instructing staff deciding whether people are disabled enough to receive disability living allowance to “google it”. Is this not the biggest indication yet of the sheer contempt in which the Department for Work and Pensions holds disabled people?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The hon. Lady is completely wrong. First of all, it was not an internal memo; it was guidance that goes out to the Department in the normal way. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) needs to keep quiet for a while and listen a bit more. This man has travelled so far in his political career that we never know what he is talking about. He has gone from being a Tory to being a Blairite and then a Brownite, and now he is a socialist on his website, so I wonder whether he needs to keep quiet and listen a little more.

The answer to the hon. Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves) is that Atos Healthcare has not withdrawn from the contract. Normal procedures to update guidance in the process of DLA reform are going through. Under DLA, only 6% had face-to-face assessments; the majority have face-to-face assessments now, under the personal independence payment. Therefore, decision makers have much more objective information than they ever had before, so there is no change to the quality of the service. This is a simple contract adjustment to reflect and meet the corresponding business needs. The hon. Lady should really not listen to jobbing journalists who come to her to tell her they have an issue.

[Rachel Reeves]

I am not sure whether the Secretary of State has even bothered to read the memo from his own Department. As the right hon. Gentleman knows, because of the failure of his Department to deliver the reform, the personal independence payment is going out only to a third of country. After the chaos of the universal credit, the work capability assessment, the PIP, the Work programme and the Youth Contract, DLA is now in chaos as well. Is there any part of the Department for Work and Pensions that is actually working?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The thing that is wonderful about the hon. Lady is that she never listens; she just reads what is on her script that she prepared before, and it does not matter what question was answered. I have already told her—[Interruption.] The hon. Member for Rhondda should keep quiet; otherwise he will jump out of his underpants if he carries on like that—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. These occasions are becoming deeply disorderly. A question has been put, and the Secretary of State is answering it. The House must hear the answer with all due courtesy and orderliness.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The first answer is that the hon. Member for Rhondda should keep quiet for longer. The real answer to the question on PIP is that the hon. Lady is completely wrong. As with every other programme, we are controlling the roll-out to ensure that it meets all our needs. There is nothing for the hon. Lady to concern herself about. This is working and it will work all the way through next year, exactly as planned. The truth is that the hon. Lady raises these questions because she does not want to come back to last week’s failed Opposition day debate, when her argument was so powerful that 47 Labour Members—including the shadow Chancellor, who I gather is a “nightmare”—decided to abstain.

[Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD)]

T4. Will the Government use the Post Office to allow people without internet access to submit applications for universal credit and to give help with the application? Post offices are in the heart of communities, and for many of my constituents, this would avoid a long journey to the nearest jobcentre.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

May I say to my hon. Friend that that is exactly what we want to do? We want to make sure that those claiming universal credit can claim it in a number of different places—for example, we are setting up the facility to claim in libraries, in local government offices and also in jobcentres. We will work and are working with post offices to ensure that if people need to make claims from them, particularly in very rural constituencies such as my hon. Friend’s, that facility will be made available as well.

[Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)]

T2. Last month, the Secretary of State tried to tell me that lots of people were using food banks simply because they were available and it made sense to do so—adding insult to injury for the many thousands of people who are being forced to use food banks and have been referred to them by agencies because they are recognised as being in desperate need. Has the Secretary of State seen the research commissioned by Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs into the rise of emergency food aid? Why has this been shelved? Is it because it reveals that the Government are at fault for people not being able to feed themselves and their families?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

We have not shelved anything, and I have to tell the hon. Lady that she needs a few facts to be put on the table. First, during a time of growth under the Labour Government—[Interruption.] Labour Members really hate to be reminded that they were in government once and that the reason why they are no longer in government is that their incompetence was so phenomenal that even at a time of growth, people ended up claiming food parcels. If we look back, we see that under the last Government the number claiming rose by 10 times. More importantly, let me inform the House of an international comparison. In the UK at the moment, some 60,000 or so are food bank users. In Germany, which has a much higher level of welfare payment, 6 million people use food banks—one in 12, which is many more, and it is the same in Canada. The hon. Lady should not always read everything she reads, particularly when it is her lot that write it.

[Jesse Norman (Hereford and South Herefordshire) (Con)]

T5. A recent report by the Office of Fair Trading identified no fewer than 18 different points at which charges can be levied on a pension. Does the Minister share my view that there should be radical simplification and disclosure on pension fees and charges—however and wherever they are levied?

[Graham Jones (Hyndburn) (Lab)]

T3. Eleven parishes in Oswaldtwistle have come together to open Hyndburn’s four food banks, which often serve people who are in employment. Is the Secretary of State not concerned about these levels of poverty, particularly in constituencies such as mine?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I am. That is why we are doing all that we can to reduce the levels of poverty, and are succeeding. Child poverty, for example, has fallen by more than 300,000 under this Government. [Interruption.] I accept that the hon. Gentleman may well find that there are issues and problems in his constituency, and I am ready and willing to discuss them with him at any stage. The fact is, however, that child poverty rose under the last Government. They spent more than £170 billion on tax credits in an attempt to end the situation, and one of the hon. Gentleman’s own colleagues has said that they would no longer be able to afford them. They were more than 10 times more expensive than anything that they replaced.

[Sir John Randall (Uxbridge and South Ruislip) (Con)]

T6. We have heard about the excessive amounts being charged on pensions and annuities. Does my hon. Friend the pensions Minister agree that it is important for us to re-establish a real savings culture, and will he tell us what else he can do?

[Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

Since January, the coalition has no longer been producing the statistics showing the number of people chasing every job vacancy in each constituency. Will the Secretary of State bring those statistics back, so that we can have information about what is happening in our own constituencies?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I shall consider the hon. Lady’s request, and get back to her.

[Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD)]

Does the Secretary of State agree that a non-resident parent who has no declared income, but chooses not to claim benefits and is living on a loan, should be required by the Child Support Agency to contribute the flat rate of £5 rather than being party to a “nil” arrangement and not having to pay anything? Should not such people contribute to the considerable costs of raising their child or children?

--- Later in debate ---

[Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)]

I congratulate the Secretary of State on introducing a benefit cap. The feedback that I receive from my constituents suggests that they thoroughly support the principle of the cap, but feel that its level is too high. Will the Secretary of State encourage them by announcing that he will consider lowering the level, perhaps to a figure beginning with 1?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I shall take my hon. Friend’s plaudits and congratulations in the spirit in which they were meant. The benefit cap is intended to be fair to those who pay tax to support people who are out of work by ensuring that people cannot earn more through being out of work than they can through being in work. Of course we keep the whole issue under review, but the cap is working very well at its present level.

How interesting it is that not one Opposition Member wants to talk about issues such as getting people back to work and being fair to the taxpayer. The only policy that the Opposition have come up with so far is reversal of the spare room subsidy. That is a pathetic indictment of the lack of welfare policies in the “welfare party”.

[Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab)]

I welcome today’s figures showing a reduction in unemployment, but what are the implications for the targets relating to inappropriate sanctions on jobseeker’s allowance claimants? This is a real issue, and it needs to be addressed. It is distorting the JSA figures.

[Craig Whittaker (Calder Valley) (Con)]

With regard to discretionary housing payment, under a recent freedom of information request it has been established that Calderdale’s budget is almost £384,000 and under the same FOI we learned that in the first six months of the spare room subsidy Labour-run Calderdale has struggled to spend around £24,000. Does my right hon. Friend agree that this massive differential between budget and actual spend could indicate that the spare room subsidy in Calderdale is not an issue, or does he think Labour-run Calderdale is not doing enough to help the most vulnerable?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

We will, of course, be releasing figures on this later, but what I say to councils up and down the country is, “That is what the money is there for—to help alleviate issues and problems, at their discretion.” I remind my hon. Friend that last year, after having complained that they did not have enough money, they returned £10 million to the Exchequer, so my urging to them is, “Either do what you’re meant to do or stop complaining.”

[Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)]

What advice does the Secretary of State have for the 4,963 people in Sefton chasing the 10 available one-bedroom properties? Where does he expect them to go, especially given that many of them are disabled and are unable to pay the bedroom tax?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

As my hon. Friends made clear in the debate last week, there is actually an awful lot of available property in HomeSwap, with over 300,000 available in the last week alone. I simply say to the hon. Gentleman, and, through him to the councils, local authorities and housing associations, that the purpose of this programme is to get them to manage their housing better, and not to be building bigger houses when they need one-bedroom properties, and to start managing better for the people who need their property.

Oral Answers to Questions

Iain Duncan Smith Excerpts

Monday 14th October 2013 Commons Chamber

[Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con)]

2. What recent discussions he has had with representatives of the UN on the under-occupancy penalty.

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

Strangely, I was not asked to discuss the removal of the spare room subsidy, or any other matter, with the UN representative.

[Alec Shelbrooke]

Does my right hon. Friend share my concern that the UN housing expert made no reference to the 250,000 households living in overcrowded accommodation or the efforts that the Government are making to bring fairness and respect to the welfare system after the mess that lot left it in?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Mrs Rolnik from the UN appeared over here, seemingly at the invitation of those opposed to all our policies, the Labour, or welfare, party included. I was interested in the notes that came back from the UN after she left. Some of the officials said,

“who is that strange woman; why is she talking about bedrooms and why on earth do we have a UN Housing Rapporteur.”

My thoughts entirely.

[Mr Nick Raynsford (Greenwich and Woolwich) (Lab)]

The statement from the United Nations not only reveals that Mrs Rolnik visited the Department for Communities and Local Government, the Department for Work and Pensions, the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the Ministry of Justice, the Homes and Community Agency and Manchester city council, but gives a statement of housing need in this country to which most serious commentators would wholly subscribe. Will the Secretary of State now stop his delusional approach to a scheme that cannot work because there is an inadequate supply of smaller accommodation for people to move into?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

It was the right hon. Gentleman’s Government who left office with the lowest level of house building since the 1920s—[Interruption.] It is higher now than it was under them—nearly 1.8 million on waiting lists in England and 250,000 tenants in overcrowded accommodation. The Opposition never talk about that. Never do we hear them say they were sorry for the overcrowded mess they left behind them. Instead of little gimmicks with people from Brazil, they would be better off apologising for the mess they left us in in the first place.

[Mr Julian Brazier (Canterbury) (Con)]

I commend my right hon. Friend’s robust approach. Does he agree that it cannot be part of any responsible welfare system to support people in accommodation of a size that they do not need when so many families have no proper accommodation at all?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I agree with my hon. Friend. It is also worth reminding the Opposition that they introduced a policy for social tenants in the private sector that does not allow housing benefit recipients to have spare rooms. So they are being hypocritical in saying that they are against one and in favour of the other.

[Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)]

How can the Secretary of State continue to defend the bedroom tax when there are not enough smaller properties for people to move into, even if it were the right thing to do?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I keep reminding the Opposition—and this may be the real reason why they got in such a mess over the economy—that a subsidy is not a tax. They need to understand that a tax is something that the Government take away from people, but this is money that the taxpayers have given to people to subsidise them to have spare rooms. We simply cannot go on like that. I remind the hon. Lady that the Government she was a member of nearly doubled the housing benefit bill in the 10 years they were in power, and that is why we have to take action.

[Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)]

Is my hon. Friend aware that there are 4,000 people in Harlow on the council house waiting list, many of whom are not on benefits? Does he agree that the single room supplement will free up housing so that some of those people can get the housing that they rightly deserve?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I agree with my hon. Friend. The coalition is concerned about people who have to live in overcrowded accommodation. Never do we hear one single comment from the welfare party about people living desperately in the overcrowded accommodation that they left them in.

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State is so out of touch he is even out of touch with his own Minister, Lloyd Freud—[Hon. Members: “Lloyd?”] Lord Freud. It was a Freudian slip.

Last week, Lord Freud admitted that there are not enough one-bedroom properties in this country. How would the Secretary of State describe a Government who tell the poorest in the land that they have to move into a one-bedroom property or pay a substantial penalty when they know that there are not enough one-bedroom properties? Is that perniciously cruel or utterly incompetent?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I am not closely associated with Lloyd George, but I am always ready to read what he has to say. I welcome the hon. Gentleman to his post, but he is completely wrong. My noble Friend Lord Freud chastised housing associations and others for continuing to build houses that are not required when there is a demand for single bedroom accommodation.

[Chris Bryant]

He didn’t.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

He did. I know he said it, because I read it.

[Lorraine Fullbrook (South Ribble) (Con)]

3. What assessment he has made of the effect of the expansion of the new enterprise allowance on young entrepreneurs.

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

The new enterprise allowance offers support for people of all ages who want to start a business—to date, more than 1,700 young people have done so. We now have an additional 60,000 mentoring places available, so many more will be helped in the future. This is a very successful programme.

[Lorraine Fullbrook]

My constituent Paul Williams recently received help from the new enterprise allowance to start up his business, Choc Amor. He has twice moved to larger premises, has recently opened a new tea room and now employs nine people. Does my right hon. Friend agree that Paul Williams is a great example of why we should extend the scheme further, so that other hard-working people with drive and determination can get on in life, start a business and support our recovering economy?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The example she gives is one of many that prove the programme is working. The scheme was due to end in September 2013, but now, as a result of its success, referrals will extend to 2014. More than 54,000 have taken up the mentoring offer and there is an extra £35 million for an additional 60,000 mentoring places. I hope my hon. Friend, and all hon. Members, will ensure that many more people know about the scheme and have the same opportunity as her constituent.

[Stephen Mosley]

Last month, I organised a small business fair in Chester. We had the support of the local provider, Blue Orchid, which seems to be doing an excellent job of helping people to start businesses in Cheshire. There are a large number of providers across the country. What assessment has my right hon. Friend made of their effectiveness?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

For the most part they provide a good service to all constituents and have been successful in all parts of the country. They operate within Jobcentre Plus districts and are monitored locally. If there are concerns, they are raised with the Jobcentre Plus. Their monthly management information flow gives us a very good overview of the scheme. In the north-west, my hon. Friend’s region, 8,000 have started working with a mentor and 4,420 have started claiming the weekly allowance—a big success.

[Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)]

Most businesses do not survive beyond the first year, and failing generally leaves their owners significantly out of pocket. Would it not be better to concentrate on boosting the economy to create jobs for young people, rather than recommending self-employment which, sadly, may make matters worse for the vast majority?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I am sorry to hear the hon. Gentleman cavil about this programme. The reality is that the two are not mutually exclusive. For those who have a good idea and want to start a business, the scheme provides an opportunity that otherwise would not be there. I remind him that approximately 1,800 18 to 24-year-olds, 18,000 25 to 49-year-olds, 6,000 aged 50-plus, who may well have had difficulty getting a job later on, and 4,800 with disabilities who would have been written off under the old scheme, have now started a business.

[Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)]

Will the Secretary of State look at the problems people are having in making the transition from jobseeker’s allowance to the new enterprise allowance regime, particularly with regard to housing benefit? A constituent, who is keen to set up his own business, came to see me the other day, but immediately found that his housing benefit had been stopped. He is of course still entitled to it in the early stages of claiming NEA.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for raising the issue and I will definitely have it looked into immediately. It is meant to flow easily. If there is a misunderstanding, or people do not know what it is, we must take that on and ensure that they do.

[Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) (Con)]

25. As Essex has a long and rich tradition of enterprise and entrepreneurial endeavour, I thank the Government for introducing the scheme to support the next generation of business leaders in Basildon and Thurrock. Will the Secretary of State tell the House how many businesses have been started with the support of the allowance in Essex, preferably in south Essex?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I will get back to my hon. Friend about the more specific details, if he wants. About 26,000 new businesses have started already and the target is to get 40,000 going by December 2013. There are about 2,000 start-ups every single month under this scheme. Out of the first 3,000 people on it, 85% are still off benefit a year later. That is a successful scheme.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

Is the Secretary of State aware that many Labour Members support this measure, but we are careful about ensuring that the quality of mentoring is good, that the evaluation of the likelihood of success be built on initiatives such as the new scheme of Hertfordshire university and that the scheme leads to long-term sustainable businesses?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

As the hon. Gentleman knows, I have great deal of respect for him, and he is right that much depends on the quality of the mentoring; we are doing our level best to make sure that it is as good it could possibly be. If he has any suggestions about how to improve it further, the door is open and I am always happy to see him and discuss them with him. I would revisit any project he would like to nominate if he wanted us to look at any difficulties and I would consider looking at any improvements that might be worth making.

[Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con)]

22. I welcome the extension of this excellent scheme to 2014. What discussions has my right hon. Friend had with the Chancellor about extending it further, should it continue to be successful?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The Chancellor and I of course discuss these matters quite regularly, and the reality is that he is very interested in this scheme. The truth is that a successful economy relies on new business start-ups. This plays exactly into the right arena. In comparison with competitors all over the world, new business start-ups and new businesses are providing the way for us to be successful. I am sure that the Chancellor will readily take my hon. Friend’s suggestions.

[Mrs Emma Lewell-Buck (South Shields) (Lab)]

5. What assessment he has made of the performance of Atos Healthcare in delivering occupational health assessments.

--- Later in debate ---

[Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con)]

6. What assessment he has made of the effectiveness of the benefit cap in encouraging people back to work.

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

It is my strong belief that there is a connection between what is happening with the benefit cap and getting people into work. The findings of polls we conducted show that of those notified or aware that they would be affected by the cap, three in 10 then took action to find work. To date, Jobcentre Plus has helped some 16,500 potentially capped claimants back into work.

[Margot James]

Some of the few families in my constituency affected by the benefit cap have particular issues in accessing employment. Does my right hon. Friend feel that the Work programme has the specialist knowledge required to deal with some of the difficulties that this group sometimes encounter in accessing employment?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

It does, which is the whole point of the Work programme—to get more individuals to involve themselves and to help such people find the right courses, the right application and then the right skilling. The Work programme is able to do that in a more intense way than Jobcentre Plus is, so it should provide enormous help. The reality is that the benefit cap is enormously popular, which may account for why the welfare party opposite has come and gone on this issue from the beginning. First, Labour Members say they are opposed to it; then they say they are for it: we have no idea what they will do about it.

[Glenda Jackson (Hampstead and Kilburn) (Lab)]

A new report by the New Policy Institute and Trust for London shows that 57% of working-age adults and children living in poverty in London are in households that work. That work is almost inevitably low paid and increasingly part time. Will the Secretary of State drop this mantra of making work pay and begin perhaps to discuss with his colleagues the possibility of encouraging a living wage?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I am always very willing to discuss issues relating to the living wage with the hon. Lady or with anyone else. However, I hope that when the hon. Lady talks to her constituents she is honest enough to tell them that the reason they find themselves in so much difficulty is that the last Government made such a mess of the economy, and caused so many people to collapse into low incomes and very poor jobs. It was the Labour party that caused that. We are changing it, and restoring the previous position.

[Mr David Ruffley (Bury St Edmunds) (Con)]

The European Commission said this morning that more than 600,000 EU migrants live in this country without working. Does my right hon. Friend agree that we could cap the benefits paid to those individuals by introducing a more stringent residence requirement, and by insisting that they have a longer social security contribution record?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I have not read the report in any detail, but I do know that the 600,000 figure does not necessarily refer to people of working age who could be working. There is a big question mark over the number of people to whom it relates. I do not want to find myself in the middle of a debate between some of the media and the European Union, so let me simply say that our own assessment—our habitual residency test—currently prevents people who could be working and not on benefits from claiming those benefits. It is the Commission that is trying to get us to change that, and I am utterly refusing to do so.

[Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab)]

The unemployment rate in my constituency is nearly 9%. One mother whose benefits have been capped has little opportunity of getting a job, especially as she has several small children to look after. She is putting feeding and clothing them and paying bills ahead of paying her rent, so her landlord, Miguel Contreres, is receiving just £30 a week. Can the Secretary of State provide a fair alternative to the landlord’s throwing that mother and her children out on to the street?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Can we please return to reality? [Interruption.] I love the fact that my new shadow, the hon. Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves)—whom I welcome to her position—was out over the weekend saying “We are going to get really tough on benefits”, and at the first opportunity Labour Members are carping about the cap and the spare room subsidy. The truth is that the cap applies to people with average earnings. May I ask the hon. Gentleman what he might like to say to those who are trying and working hard, and who wonder why people on benefits are earning more than they are?

[Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD)]

8. How many individual cases were raised with the Child Support Agency by hon. Members in 2012.

--- Later in debate ---

[Fiona O'Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab)]

16. What plans he has to improve the performance of his Department’s programmes referred to by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his spending review statement on 26 June 2013.

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

I am cutting the running costs of my Department from what I inherited from the last Government of £9 billion in 2009-10 to less than £6 billion by the end of this Parliament. What is more, by 2016-17 spending on out-of-work benefits will be back at 2008-09 levels. Working with the Treasury, we are always looking to drive down costs further still, and we will make further announcements.

[Fiona O'Donnell]

I thank the Secretary of State for that answer. The Chancellor of the Exchequer called in his spending review statement for a hard-hearted assessment of underperforming programmes in the DWP. Does the Secretary of State accept this review, and what steps is he taking to tackle underperformance in his Department?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The No. 1 thing we could do was to get rid of Labour—a great move to get more performance and not underperformance, and judging by the performance of its Front-Bench team, that is one of the areas where we ought to start straight away—but I must say to the hon. Lady that we are driving costs down and making savings in every programme. I would love to know this: out of the £80 billion plus we will save as a result of our welfare changes, which the Chancellor welcomes, which ones does she welcome?

[Mr Frank Field (Birkenhead) (Lab)]

How many permanent secretaries does the Secretary of State think he will get through before universal credit is rolled out nationally?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Universal credit will roll out very well and it will be on time and within budget. We should consider the reality of the record of the right hon. Gentleman’s Government on Departments and the mess they got into. They left us with IT blunders of over £26 billion. With respect to him, as he was not always involved, but the others were, I therefore think they should apologise first.

[Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

17. What discussions he has had with Motability on the changes from disability living allowance to personal independence payment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab)]

T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

Today I welcomed the national roll-out of the claimant commitment across around 100 jobcentres a month from now, mirroring a contract of employment. These contracts are about a cultural shift making it easier for claimants to understand what they must do in return for benefits and that they are in work now to find work. During the pathfinder both claimants and staff have found this helps enormously in focusing people on their requirements and the consequences if they do not meet them. This now marks the next stage of delivery.

[Paul Blomfield]

One of my constituents who is still without a job after his involvement in the Work programme came to one of the public consultation meetings I organised during the recess because he was angered by his experience of the programme. Bright and articulate with a postgraduate degree from Oxford, he had been sent on an eight-week employability course that included the completion of questions by ticking boxes with smiley faces or sad faces. Does the Secretary of State understand why he and others on the course angrily felt it was a waste of time, and does his experience explain why the Work programme has failed the overwhelming majority of people who have been sent on it?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I just do not agree with that because the reality is that the Work programme figures show that it is performing incredibly well and it will just get better: some 72% of the first tranche or cohort are off benefits; 380,000 people who before were written off by the last Government are now in work; 168,000 are now in sustained employment; and we now know that 90% of those who are in sustained employment go on to another year at least of employment, which is better than any of the last Government’s programmes—cheaper, more effective and better for those trying to get into work.

[Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con)]

T6. As this month marks the first anniversary of automatic enrolment, will the Minister update the House on progress so far?

--- Later in debate ---

[Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab)]

Labour Members support the principle of universal credit, but we have repeatedly raised concerns about the Secretary of State’s ability to deliver it. Since 2011 he has consistently promised that 1 million people will be claiming universal credit by April 2014. Will he now tell the House how many people he expects actually to be claiming universal credit by then, and whether he will proceed with the previously announced plans to close down new claims for tax credits by that date?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

May I start by welcoming the hon. Lady to her position? As I told the Committee and have said consistently, universal credit will be rolled out within the time scales we set, and we are planning very clearly to enrol as many people in it as possible. This will be a success. As she says she is in favour of universal credit, perhaps she can explain why Labour Members voted against it at the start and continue to do so.

[Rachel Reeves]

Despite what the Secretary of State says, the truth is that by April next year it will be possible to claim universal credit at just 10 jobcentres out of a total of 772. Meanwhile, the National Audit Office says that £34 million has already had to be written off, £303 million is now at risk, and Ministers have failed to set out how the policy will work. It is a catalogue of errors. Will the Secretary of State tell us how much money spent on the project will be money down the drain? Instead of blaming everybody but himself, would it not be better for him to turn down the volume on off-the-record briefings against his own permanent secretary and start taking responsibility for his own failed policy?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Just in case the hon. Lady does not realise it, I should point out that this is not a failed policy: it will roll out successfully on time and within budget. Where does the word “failure” apply to that? She is part of a party whose time in office saw more than £28 billion wasted on IT programmes, with complete chaos most of the time it was there. This will roll out on time and within budget. At any time when we announce the new reset, she can, if she would like, come and talk to us about it. Perhaps for once, instead of voting against stuff and then saying she supports it, she might tell us how many of the benefit cuts Labour Members voted against they are now in favour of.

[Mr David Amess (Southend West) (Con)]

T10. Is my right hon. Friend aware that the number of jobseeker’s allowance claimants in Southend West has fallen by 12% in the past year? Will he join me in congratulating everyone on this very encouraging trend?

[Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab)]

T2. With well over 1 million unemployment benefit claimants being sanctioned since 2010, rumours abounding that targets are in place for sanctioning, and all of us facing many desperate people in our surgeries, will the Secretary of State tell us when we will see the results of his investigation into sanctioning?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

It is obvious and clear that Labour Members do not support sanctioning. The reality is that they spend their whole time saying that they are in favour of benefit changes and at every single turn they oppose them. People who deserve sanctions deserve sanctions, and we impose them on those who do not play a part in the system.

[Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD)]

People with autism and mental health problems have particular problems with the work capability assessment, and the courts recently found that the test put people with mental health problems at a substantial disadvantage. Will the Minister or the Secretary of State rethink the work capability assessment for those people and pause the process, for which Rethink Mental Illness called?

[Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op)]

T3. Will the Secretary of State confirm whether benefits officers been have told not to sanction people when the only job offered is on a zero-hours contract? Do Ministers recognise that the new claimant commitments mean that people will not actually be able to sign zero-hours contracts without risking losing their in-work benefits?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The claimant commitment is about people’s obligations under the existing terms. They will have to seek work, attend interviews and try to get a job, and once they are offered a job they must take it. Those are the sanctions coming up under universal credit. People will lose benefits for three months for a first offence, six months for a second offence and three years for a third offence. Right now, zero-hours contracts are legal. If Labour wants to change the law, we want to hear that from the hon. Gentleman.

[Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con)]

Will the Secretary of State update the House on the innovation fund and how it is helping separated families?

--- Later in debate ---

[Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)]

T5. The Government continue to disregard warnings from the likes of Oxfam and Church Action on Poverty that many of the 500,000 people being forced to use food banks are doing so because of delayed, reduced or withdrawn benefits. The Department seems not to be interested in collecting any statistics behind the reasons for that referral. Will the Secretary of State look into this to see what impact his benefit changes are having on people who simply cannot afford to feed themselves?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

We do spend our time looking carefully to see whether the effects of our policies are negative on some families and how we can best support them. We have localised to local authorities the support for things such as crisis loans. Local authorities are now much better at focusing on what people really need. Our general view is that there are people in some difficulty, but lots of people are taking some of this food because it is available and it makes sense to do so. We are working with local authorities to ensure that those in real need get support.

[Mike Freer (Finchley and Golders Green) (Con)]

What estimate has been made of the annual number of surviving civil partners who qualify for widow and widower pensions?

--- Later in debate ---

[Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD)]

The roll-out of universal credit will be complete by 2017, yet the contract for the Post Office card account will be up for renewal in 18 months. What assurance can the Secretary of State give that people will still be able to access their benefits through their post offices?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I have looked at this matter carefully. The Post Office contract is due to expire in 2015, but there is the option to extend it and we will keep the matter under review. The Post Office is piloting a new current account and we hope that many people will transfer on to that. I assure the hon. Gentleman that we will ensure that those who are in the circumstances that he describes will always be properly supported.

[Ian Austin (Dudley North) (Lab)]

Every single week, constituents tell me that Atos claims that it has not received the forms that they have completed. Last week, a young disabled constituent told me that that had happened on several occasions, leaving him penniless for weeks at a time. Why can the Secretary of State not sort this shambles out?

[Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con)]

Will the Secretary of State confirm that since the benefit cap was introduced, his Department has helped more than 16,000 people who would have been affected by it into work? Does that not show that those who voted against the benefit cap cannot be trusted on welfare reform?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

My hon. Friend is right that the benefit cap is popular and effective. Although the new shadow Secretary of State said that Labour would be tougher on welfare, we have all noticed throughout questions that the only thing we have heard from Labour is opposition to every single spending reduction and welfare reform. That party is not fit for government.

[Mr Speaker]

The hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) has been looking doleful for much of questions. I shall do my best to rescue her from her misery.

Universal Credit

Iain Duncan Smith Excerpts

Thursday 5th September 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Liam Byrne (Birmingham, Hodge Hill) (Lab)]

(Urgent Question): Will the Secretary of State confirm that the facts in the National Audit Office report about universal credit, set out this morning, are true?

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

I start by reminding the House of the importance of universal credit. Universal credit is a major and challenging reform to transform—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. Just before the Secretary of State develops his remarks—the exchanges will run on—I say very gently to the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne) that the proper form in these matters is to stick to the urgent question in the terms submitted. It is not appropriate for a Member to refine, adjust or spin the terminology of the question. We really must stick to the terms. I am not impugning the integrity of the right hon. Gentleman—[Interruption.] No, no; I am not doing anything of the kind. What I am saying is that I think he has behaved in a mildly cheeky manner, and I hope he will not do that again.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

We would never accuse the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne) of being less than cheeky—or, for that matter, of ever attempting to spin anything—but I stand by your judgment, Mr Speaker: a cheeky spinner he is.

Universal credit, I remind everybody, is an important and challenging programme to provide major benefits for claimants and the country as a whole, with a clear financial set of incentives that will get an estimated 300,000 additional people into work and make 3 million claimants better off. However, all major programmes involve difficult issues and difficult decisions, week in, week out. In 2011, I added to the programme and the original schedule—as the right hon. Gentleman knows, because we saw each other and I told him about this—the need for a pathfinder, which I said would start rolling out in April.

I added that provision because I was concerned that we needed to ensure that we tested the IT throughout. By the way, I have done that for every programme—from disability living allowance to the personal independence payment, and everything else. We need to make sure that we are right, and I was concerned that the existing programme was not quite right.

In the summer of 2012—or rather, before that, in early 2012—I instigated an independent review because I was concerned that the leadership of the programme was not focusing in the way that it needed to on delivering the programme as it had been originally set out. The internal report showed me quite categorically that my concerns were right: the leadership was struggling, a culture of good news was prevailing and intervention was required. That was very much backed up by the National Audit Office.

As a result, I changed the leadership team in October 2012 and brought in the brilliant Philip Langsdale, who had successfully delivered Heathrow terminal 2. He was one of the great IT brains in the UK. He made it very clear that the programme was deliverable, and that it needed to be reset so that it could be delivered on time and on budget. When he sadly died, I went to my right hon. Friend the Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General and asked for David Pitchford—in the short term, while we looked for a replacement—who headed the Major Projects Authority in January. My right hon. Friend agreed to that, and the Cabinet Office helped us to put together the reset programme that had been started by Philip Langsdale.

I accepted the findings of the report absolutely in review, and have made certain that in the last few months we have been working to deliver the programme. It has been handed over to Howard Shiplee, who has now taken over. He wrote recently in The Daily Telegraph that he believed the programme was deliverable on time and on budget. The important thing about Howard Shiplee is that he is the man who delivered the Olympic park under budget and early. His clear indication is that he believes that we might do similar things here. He has made that very clear.

I should also like to remind the House that universal credit is not just succeeding but progressing. It is progressing because we have already started to roll out the pathfinders. I was in front of the Select Committee in July, when I explained that those pathfinders were already teaching us some important lessons. We are expanding those into six new jobcentres and dealing with them. Also, from October, around 100 jobcentres a month will begin using the claimant commitment with new jobseekers. That commitment will act as a contract between the jobseeker and the state. We are already seeing that this is driving people into work. Universal credit is not just about IT. It is massively about cultural change to get people back to work and to ensure that those who do go to work, particularly the poorest, benefit the most.

The NAO concludes on the programme:

“It is entirely feasible that it goes on to achieve considerable benefits to society”.

Every recommendation that the NAO has made in the report has already been made. The key lesson that I take is simply this. The previous Government crashed one IT programme after another, and no Minister ever intervened to change them early so that they delivered on time. We are not doing that. I have taken action on this particular programme. This programme will deliver on time and will deliver within budget.

[Mr Byrne]

Our bible, “Erskine May”, states clearly on page 201 that Ministers must give accurate and truthful information to the House,

“correcting any inadvertent error at the earliest opportunity”.

On 5 March this year, the Secretary of State told my right hon. Friend the Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms) that

“the implementation of universal credit…is proceeding exactly in accordance with plans.”—[Official Report, 5 March 2013; Vol. 559, c. 827.]

We now learn from the National Audit Office that the month before that statement was made, the Department began a 13-week reset programme. Four weeks earlier, the Department reduced case-load forecasts for next April by 80%. Five months before, the Department had largely stopped developing systems for national roll-out. It is inconceivable that the Secretary of State did not know about that, because the reset programme was organised by the man he personally brought into the Department. Furthermore, in a letter to me last month, the Secretary of State told me:

“I closely monitor the progress of this ground-breaking programme”.

The NAO must agree its facts with the Department. Paragraph 13 of the NAO’s report states:

“The Department is now reconsidering the timing of full rollout”,

and that plans have changed three times in four months. This morning, the National Audit Office told me that the NAO and the permanent secretary have agreed that statement, yet it flatly contradicts what the Secretary of State has said to this House. To hit his deadline at the end of 2017, he must now move more than 200,000 people a month on to the new system—the population of a city the size of Derby.

The Public Accounts Committee will no doubt consider next week the changed timetable, the IT shambles and the write-offs, the lack of counter-fraud measures, the shambolic financial control and the ineffective oversight. What I want to say to the Secretary of State, however, is this: he has let this House form a picture of universal credit, which the nation’s auditors say is wrong. The most charitable explanation is that he has lost control of the programme and lost control of the Department. He must now correct the record. He must now apologise to the House and convene cross-party talks to get this project back on track. The quiet man must not become the cover-up man.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I must say that that was suitably pathetic, coming from the right hon. Gentleman. He knows very well—he has been in to see me on a number of occasions; I would like to say what he said, but it was unmemorable in every single case—that the reality is that this programme, as I said at the beginning, will be delivered in time and in budget. There is no major change to that. What I have done, and I did early on, is something that the right hon. Gentleman never did and Labour has never done. When I got concerned about the delivery schedule, I made changes and intervened, bringing in the right people to do that. I stand by that, and I will not take lessons from the right hon. Gentleman and his party. Let me just remind them of what happened when they were in office.

The benefit processing replacement programme was scrapped at a cost of £140 million, and no one apologised. The Child Support Agency wasted £500 million before the programme was scrapped—no Minister intervened; no Minister changed it. The Labour Government wasted £3 billion on benefit overpayments. The tax credit system was delivered at one go on one day and it collapsed, costing billions, with £30 billion lost in fraud. The programme that delivered the health service IT changes cost £13 billion when it was cancelled with no apologies.

The lesson that I have learned and that we Government Members learn, in conjunction with my right hon. Friend the Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General, is that we check these programmes while they are progressing and if changes need to be made, we make them. In making those changes, I stand by the fact that the purpose is to deliver this programme—on time and on budget, which is something that the Opposition never did in the whole of their time in government.

[Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

Does my right hon. Friend not feel that every time Labour Members snipe at him they simply show that they are not serious about welfare reform? Does the National Audit Office report not show that universal credit can substantially benefit society and, indeed, can benefit society by some £38 billion by 2022-23?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The reality is that this NAO report is very clear about the benefits and very clear that if we get the resets right—it gave us a list of them—and every one of those items has been done, it will save £38 billion. More than that, it will help improve the lives of the least well-off as they are delivered back into work. We should remember that I inherited from the previous Labour Government a chaotic system costing billions—and we are putting it right.

[Mr Alistair Darling (Edinburgh South West) (Lab)]

Like many Secretaries of State for Work and Pensions, I looked at something like universal credit some 12 years ago, and I was advised then that it was technically very difficult, if not impossible, to implement it at anything like an acceptable cost and that whatever the cost I was quoted, it was likely that it would end up costing an awful lot more. I have listened to the right hon. Gentleman this morning claiming that this project is on track and on budget, which I find extraordinary when the NAO says that it is anything but that. I have also listened to him blaming all those around him for letting him down, so will he tell us what advice he received when he gave this the go-ahead in 2010?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I can tell the right hon. Gentleman, whom I usually respect—and he may recall that we were facing each other across the Dispatch Box at the time when he was looking into the matter—that the advice I received then made it absolutely clear that universal credit could be delivered and a timetable could be set in the Department. I take full responsibility for the delivery of universal credit, and I will not shirk that responsibility. I intend to deliver it on budget and on time.

The NAO is an historical report. It relates to the period during which I was making the changes. Those changes have now been made, and all the outside advisers and experts believe that universal credit is deliverable. The right hon. Gentleman’s party has said that it supports universal credit, and I was happy to receive that support, but Opposition Members have continually voted against it and carped about it. I think that it would be far better for him to ensure that they stay the course.

[Simon Kirby (Brighton, Kemptown) (Con)]

Will not 3.1 million people, including many in Brighton and many on the lowest incomes, be better off and receive a higher entitlement under universal credit?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

That is absolutely true. That is why this programme is worth seeing through, and why having the nerve and decisiveness to see it through is so important. Of course there were difficulties—I do not shy away from that—but the changes that have been made by my Department, the Cabinet Office and external parties will deliver the system on time in order to benefit the very people to whom my hon. Friend has referred, while the Opposition carp and forget their own history.

[Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab)]

I am very disappointed by the bullish way in which the Secretary of State has behaved this morning. I believe that it was the same attitude that dismissed the voices of members of my Select Committee and those of many others who suggested that the implementation of universal credit was not going as well as was being claimed. From now on, will the Secretary of State set realistic time scales for the roll-out of universal credit, will he be honest, open and transparent about the challenges posed by the introduction of such a large and complex system, and will he stop over-promising what cannot be delivered?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

When I appeared before the hon. Lady’s Committee in July, I was very clear about the changes that were being made, and also about the fact that we would return to the Committee with the full roll-out timetable in the autumn once we had delivered it. That is what we were asked to do, and I will do it.

I am not being over-bullish about this. The fact is that it takes determination to drive a reform through. I have that determination, and the Department is determined to make this happen, with support and help. It is in all our interests for that to be done. We believe all those who have been charged to deliver it and who say that it can and will be delivered on time and on budget. I see no reason why that should not happen, and indeed the National Audit Office said that it was wholly feasible for it to happen.

[Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD)]

The previous benefits system was confusing and unfair. Given that the Government are committed to resolving that problem, will my right hon. Friend tell us when a million people will be covered by the new universal credit system? That is what we should be aiming for, as a first step.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

All I can say is “at the earliest”, but we want to shift as many people as possible. I would rather think in terms of how quickly we can move people from tax credit and jobseeker’s allowance to universal credit, and I hope that that will happen well before the election. I expect big volumes to be running through, but we need to take our time in order to ensure that when we roll out the IT, it works properly.

I have made the changes that I have made in order to ensure that the system is delivered safely. I could have just let it run. I could have accepted the word of some people that it would be all right on the night. However, I did not. I took the job of making sure that we knew whether it was all right, and I have made the changes that are necessary for the delivery of the programme.

[Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab)]

What is the Secretary of State’s estimate of the number of people who will be on universal credit by the time of the next general election?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I will not give that estimate now, because I intend to make a clear statement in the autumn about how and when we will roll this out. All I can tell the hon. Lady is that there will be significant volumes, and that I intend to close down jobseeker’s allowance and tax credit well before the election.

[Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)]

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Public Administration Committee will produce an important report tomorrow about civil service reform? It comes as no surprise that the Comptroller and Auditor General has said that his programme lacked “an appropriate management approach”, adding:

“Instead, the programme suffered from weak management, ineffective control and poor governance.”

These are problems that afflict all Departments, and have done so for many years under the last Government as well as this one. Will my right hon. Friend support the civil service reform so determinedly championed by my right hon. Friend the Member for Horsham (Mr Maude), to ensure that we secure the change in Whitehall that we need?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

First, let me say that I am a complete supporter of my right hon. Friend the Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General on the civil service reform plan, and I have been from day one. The truth is that if the Opposition were in thinking mode they would have agreed with that as well. The reality is that today’s NAO report shows there were problems in the running of this programme. I intervened when I discovered that and changed it, but I never expected to have to do that. When I arrived, I expected the professionalism to be able to do this properly. So my view is that I have intervened in the right way. All the other programmes of IT change are working and are well run—and they are well run by the Department. This one was not. We have made the changes necessary.

[Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State does, however, still need to explain why he came to this House in March and said the programme was proceeding according to plan when, in fact, he knew at that point that a month previously he had had to rip up those plans and reset the whole programme. Why did he do that? Why did he not give a more candid account to Parliament in March?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The plan is, and has always been, to deliver this programme within the four-year schedule to 2017. At the time I came to the House, I believed that to be the case, and I am standing here today telling the House—whether Opposition Members like it or not—that that is exactly what the plan is today. We will deliver this in time and in budget, and I have to say the changes were made deliberately to ensure that.

[Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)]

May I invite my right hon. Friend to welcome the shadow Secretary of State’s conversion to caring about the use of taxpayers’ money, and in doing so would he like to remind the House of how many of the Government’s welfare cuts and changes the right hon. Gentleman has opposed? May I also urge my right hon. Friend to adopt the cross-party talks the shadow Secretary of State urges, because whatever advice he gives, my right hon. Friend will know to proceed in exactly the opposite direction?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I am always willing to see the shadow Secretary of State; he has been in three or four times, and I will be very happy to see him again if he wishes. Honestly, however, my hon. Friend is right: the Opposition have opposed every single welfare change. We will be saving £80 billion as a result of our welfare reforms, and we have already, last week, seen the lowest number of households without work since the last Government were in power. We have seen fewer people economically inactive, and we have seen a fall of over 300,000 in the number of those out of work or economically inactive.

[Andrew Miller (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab)]

I had a conversation with the late Philip Langsdale before he took up his post, and I must say I had the most profound respect for the man. He took over the post because of previous project management failures. May I remind the Secretary of State that it was he who signed off the contract that led to those project management failures? Rather than simply blaming civil servants—although I agree with the Chair of the Public Administration Committee about the need for change—why does the Secretary of State not accept the blame himself?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I am not blaming civil servants—[Interruption.] No: I made decisions that led to the removal of some of those who were charged with the responsibility of delivering this. Today’s NAO report is very clear that the culture of secrecy and of good news did not help run those departments. That does not run all the way through every programme. We are delivering DLA PIP and that programme has been modified and changed because they have brought forward all the concerns. It is the same with the CMEC CSA changes and the cap changes. All of those IT programmes have been dealt with in my office in conjunction with them in the proper way. This one was not. I am simply saying that Philip Langsdale—the hon. Gentleman is right that he was a brilliant man—said to me at the beginning that this one did not tell the truth.

[Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that all this debate about the minutiae of a complex transformation and simplification of what, by any measure, is a very complicated benefits system, risks losing sight of the bigger picture, which is that universal credit will mean that work always pays, and that whatever the costs of developing the system, they will be a small fraction of the billions of pounds that will be saved in the long run?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

My hon. Friend is right about that. I remind the House that under the previous Government, in the six years preceding the election, tax credits cost £180 billion-plus because of the shambles and the mess they were in. They lost huge sums through tax fraud and evasion, and we are putting that right. Our welfare reforms, including universal credit—all opposed by the Opposition—will change it, and they are already having an effect. Not one of our reforms has been supported by the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne), who has carped and voted against every single one.

[Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)]

One of the most damning criticisms in the National Audit Office report relates to the lack of a proper fraud detection system as part of universal credit. When Lord Freud, the Minister with responsibility for welfare reform, came before the Select Committee on Communities and Local Government earlier this year, he said that a new fraud detection system would be put in place. Why did the Secretary of State allow this programme to run for so long without an adequate fraud detection system being part of it?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Duncan Smith]

That is exactly one of the reasons why we intervened back in 2012—the system they were trying to integrate was not going to work correctly. That was already evident by the end of 2011 and early 2012. The problems were such that when I introduced the independent inquiry, it told me categorically that this was not going to work, so we have changed it and reset it. In conjunction with the Cabinet Office, we have seen that there is a better way to do this, and we believe that the integrated fraud programme will deliver results in the new roll-out.

[Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con)]

When the Select Committee visited the north-west we saw universal credit working, albeit in a limited manner, and being well received by the staff working with it. It was having a positive impact on the claimants they were working with. Surely, however, it is right not to roll out this programme so fast and risk millions of people not getting the benefit that they are expecting to get. So may I urge the Secretary of State to say to the House that he will not rush this and that he will get it right before it is rolled out to more people?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I agree, and I must say what the problem has been throughout all this. When I introduced the pathfinder, which said that there would a delay in the way we rolled this out, Labour criticised us for delaying the roll-out. Then, later on, it criticised us for not doing it properly. The reality is that we are doing this properly. We will not do it against artificial timetables, but it will be done in the overall four-year timetable and it will be effective.

[Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)]

The Secretary of State has told us today that he had serious concerns in the summer of 2012. He also told us that he then changed the leadership in October 2012. Does he recall what he said to this House in September 2012? He said:

“For what it is worth, I take absolute, direct and close interest in every single part of the IT development. I hold meetings every week and a full meeting every two weeks, and every weekend a full summary of the IT developments and everything to do with policy work is in my box and I am reading it. I take full responsibility and I believe that we are taking the right approach.”—[Official Report, 11 September 2012; Vol. 550, c. 154.]

Culture of secrecy and good news, or what?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I do not resile from any of what I said; that is exactly the way in which we have tried to manage it. But of course, someone is only as good as the information given to them. I must say to the hon. Gentleman that by September 2012 I had already started the reset process and brought in Philip Langsdale. He was coming into the office and we were going to make those changes. The reality is that this will be delivered on time and on budget. That was my view then and it is my view today. The key thing is that those charged with the responsibility of doing that have the skill to do it.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)]

Is my right hon. Friend aware that his transformative scheme has enormous public support, as it will revolutionise dependency by reducing it in this country? Does he note, as I do, that in office the socialist Opposition swallowed any number of camels and are now straining at a gnat?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Duncan Smith]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. As I said earlier, the Labour party has opposed every single reform since we came into government. Those reforms are set to save some £80 billion, and universal credit is part of that. At no stage have the Opposition told us what they would do instead. When they said that they would support universal credit, they voted against it. This is a party in opposition that is so opportunistic that it catches itself in the morning disagreeing with itself in the evening.

[Glenda Jackson (Hampstead and Kilburn) (Lab)]

Since the Secretary of State took personal responsibility for this failure, we have seen a delay in the time scale for the universal roll-out of universal credit, a reduction in the number of pathfinder programmes, which has gone way down, and claimants being reduced to the simplest to pass through the system. When he gives us the time and the budget, as he undoubtedly will again, could they at least be accurate? I say to him that when it comes to spinning it takes one to know one—but his spinning will not create humour in the country. It could be catastrophic for benefits claimants.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The hon. Lady, not for the first time, is completely wrong. The pathfinder was exactly as we set it down. It was always going to deal with single people at the beginning and we have rolled it out as we said we would. I stand by the fact that this pathfinder is the right thing to do. I introduced it back in 2011 and it will help us enormously to develop the IT. That is the way we are doing it and that is the way we will do it.

[Mike Freer (Finchley and Golders Green) (Con)]

Having visited the pathfinders with the Select Committee on Work and Pensions, I can reassure my right hon. Friend that both the claimants and the front-line staff were enthusiastic about universal credit and how it is working. Is my right hon. Friend also aware that the Select Committee commented that the Government are making significant progress in making work pay?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

My hon. Friend is exactly right. All our reforms—reducing the workless numbers and ensuring that the economically inactive are going back to work, saving money for the Exchequer and for taxpayers—are in play. Every one has been opposed by the Opposition and we have had no answer about what they would do instead. As my right hon. Friend the Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General has said, they dance around on all the issues and the truth is that they have no policy. The welfare party is bankrupt.

[Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)]

Under the section of the report containing the key findings, paragraph 18 states:

“Throughout the programme, the Department has lacked a detailed view of how Universal Credit is meant to work.”

Will the Secretary of State explain how that happened? Does it not show that he lost control of the project from the very beginning?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The original plan to have an “Agile” process meant that by 2011 the plan would be formulated and could be delivered against. In 2011, I was concerned about the failure to deliver—that was meant to be part of the process—and that is why I instituted the changes in 2012. We will have that plan ready. It will be announced to Parliament, it will be stuck to and it will deliver in time and on budget, so the NAO is right and I fully agree with it.

[Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con)]

We understand that the aim is to give support to the right people at the right time in the right way and to help make their lives better. Will my right hon. Friend remind us of the additional benefits of the reduction in administrative costs and in fraud and error?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The costs overall and the savings are enormous. The total benefits to individuals and in fraud and error will total up to perhaps £38 billion. The point is that those savings are real savings. Yes, there is a problem about some wasted money in this programme that is quite unacceptable, but set against the big savings the key point is that it is a big and important programme.

[Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) (Lab)]

The use of real-time information is critical to rolling out universal credit across the country and ensuring that it works properly, so will the Secretary of State confirm that the RTI project is on time and on budget at HMRC?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The good thing about the pathfinder is that it has allowed us to test the RTI system. The hon. Lady will find, if she wants to visit any of the sites, that we are getting a phenomenally good feed from the RTI about the payroll. In some areas, they have already discovered that some people claiming jobseeker’s allowance are earning a salary at the same time. They have been able to deal with that, hugely due to the fact that the RTI system is working. I recall that many Opposition Members said that the RTI software would not work, but they were wrong.

[Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con)]

Why was this urgent question called when the Public Accounts Committee, of which I am a member, is investigating this clearly outdated, historic report next Wednesday?

[Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con)]

I was delighted to hear my right hon. Friend say that he thought that the cultural change afforded by the introduction of universal credit was even more important than the financial savings that it will offer. In my part of the world in the black country, we have a higher than average rate of workless households. Will he talk to his officials about ensuring that some of the pathfinder pilots that he has in mind take place in the black country?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I thank my hon. Friend for her support and I will ensure that she gets the earliest possible roll-out.

[Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)]

As the Secretary of State considers the operation of universal credit, will he look at the effect on people living in areas with high private sector rental costs who find that a wholly disproportionate amount of their benefit goes on such rents, rather than keeping body and soul together? We need not only to look at that, but to control private sector rents.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I believe that universal credit will help in that regard because the idea is that, as people go back to work, they will be better off for every hour they work than they were on benefits, which should make them more able to afford to live. The vast majority of benefits under universal credit will go to the bottom 20% of earners, so it should be a net benefit to the poorest in society.

[Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con)]

May I urge my right hon. Friend to reject the shadow Secretary of State’s offer of cross-party talks, not only because of Labour’s failure on IT, benefit fraud and the tax credits system, but because Labour Members fundamentally do not believe in the welfare reform that this country desperately needs?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I will not reject the offer of the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne) because I am an optimist. On the road to Damascus, there is always a chance that such an individual may change his view and realise that what we are doing is the right thing. I will do my level best to persuade him that everything that he has done so far is wrong and that there is a better way—marked “coalition”.

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State’s problem is that we have been here before. We were told on every occasion that everything was fine and that “Agile” programming—whatever that is—would solve all the IT problems, but now we find that “Agile” was all wrong. The problem for the Secretary of State is that he still wants to deliver this by 2017, despite the fact that he is already way behind his original timetable for delivery by then. If he accepts that there are all these problems and statements such as it is

“unlikely that Universal Credit will be…simple or cheap to administer”,

would it not be better to delay the final implementation date?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The hon. Lady is right and I agree that we have been here before: the national health IT collapse costing £13 billion; the Child Support Agency failure and £120 million crash programme; and a £7.1 billion IT project that failed. The difference is that, unlike those programmes under the Labour Government, I acted to ensure that changes were made early to deliver the programme on time and on budget.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

Universal Credit

Iain Duncan Smith Excerpts

Wednesday 10th July 2013 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

Today we set out the next stage of the roll-out for universal credit following the successful launch of the pathfinder in Greater Manchester, on time earlier this year.

Starting from October, the national roll-out will be comprised of three strands.

First, across all jobcentres we will roll out components to drive the cultural shift under universal credit. Notably 20,000 Jobcentre Plus advisers will be retrained to deliver the claimant commitment and enhanced job search support nationally. Ten in-work conditionality pilots will test how best to encourage claimants to progress in work.

Secondly, we will roll out improved access to digital services across Jobcentre Plus. A total of 6,000 new computers will be installed across the country, embedding digital technology and ensuring that jobseekers become used to online transactions.

Thirdly, expanding on our early approach, universal credit will roll out to the regions, with six hub jobcentres—Hammersmith, Rugby, Inverness, Harrogate, Bath, Shotton—taking new claims to the benefit. This plan continues the safe approach to delivering this extensive reform, meaning universal credit will be rolling out in areas of England, Wales and Scotland.

The pathfinder exercise has shown that the IT system works. In parallel, the DWP is working with the new Government Digital Service to explore the possibility of enhancing the IT, using recent advances in technology to ensure the system is as secure, flexible and responsive as possible. This approach builds on the rapid development and roll-out of services such as GOV.UK and universal jobmatch, which was developed in one year and since launching in December 2012 is now achieving over 5 million average daily job searches.

The Government have made clear that the priority is to deliver universal credit safely and securely over a four-year period to 2017. We remain committed to that objective, to these time scales, and to the budget agreed for delivering this important reform.

The Government will set out more details of their development plan in the autumn.

Disabled People

Iain Duncan Smith Excerpts

Wednesday 10th July 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Byrne]

It ill behoves the Minister to play word games this afternoon on a policy that is affecting hundreds of people and their carers in his own constituency. What is he saying to carers in his constituency who are having to cut back on food, electricity and heating?

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Byrne]

In a moment. What is the Minister going to say to councils up and down the country surveyed by Channel 4 for tonight’s broadcast showing that one third of councils are having to deny help to disabled people because the provision of the discretionary housing payment fund is, frankly, insufficient? What is he going to say to those councils and what is he going to say to those disabled people in his own constituency?

[Mr Byrne]

We believe this policy should be dropped and it should be dropped now. Why? Because this is an iniquitous, unjust policy that is going to cost more than it saves.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

rose—

[Mr Byrne]

I will give way to the Secretary of State in a moment, but first I want him to respond to this scenario. His own figures show that 660,000 people will be hit by this hated tax. He said when he came to the House that this would save £490 million. Let us assume that 50% of the people who move go into the private rented sector. That is going to cost his Department an extra £25 a week each. Let us assume the rest get another form of social housing. Every single move costs a registered social landlord £850. Then there is the cost of arrears, which RSLs say will double. Then there is £160 million-worth of discretionary housing payment on top. The truth is that if 40% of people move, this could well cost our country £580 million, which is £100 million more than the Secretary of State promised to save. What is his analysis of that? Does he now admit this will cost more than it saves?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The right hon. Gentleman’s leader said categorically, in terms, that Labour would not reverse the spare room subsidy. [Interruption.] Yes, he has, in an interview. Now, however, the Leader of the Opposition’s spokesman is standing at the Dispatch Box saying Labour will reverse this. That is a commitment to spend £1 billion over two years, rolling out further down the road. That is a spending commitment.

[Mr Byrne]

The Secretary of State has just refused to deny that this iniquitous policy is going to cost £100 million more than it saves. If he wants to refute that, why is he refusing to give our noble Friends in the other place the detailed model his Department used in order to assess this and come to the conclusion it was going to save £490 million? If he wants to have an argument about whether this does indeed cost more than it saves, he should provide that detailed analysis and those figures.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Byrne]

I am grateful to you, Mr Speaker.

We have to deal with the issue of the bedroom tax and then the issue of the cash benefits—

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Will right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Byrne]

I am not going to give way to the Secretary of State—

[Mr Duncan Smith]

He has now just said—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. We must proceed, on both sides, according to established rules of debate, which include taking interventions or choosing not to do so. A Member cannot intervene, however strongly he or she feels, if the person who has the Floor declines to give way.

[Mr Byrne]

If the Secretary of State is so passionate about speaking, he should be answering for the Minister this afternoon instead of intervening from a sedentary position.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

rose—