Oral Answers to Questions
Iain Duncan Smith Excerpts(10 years, 3 months ago)
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Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con)
15. What assessment he has made of recent trends in employment figures.
The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)
The recent trends are remarkable: there are more people in work than ever before, youth unemployment is down 91,000 since the election, the claimant count for 18 to 24 year-olds has fallen for 30 consecutive months, and we have seen the largest annual fall in long-term unemployment since late 1998. I also note that in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Central Devon (Mel Stride), the claimant count is down 33% and the youth claimant count is down 41%.
Mel Stride
As my right hon. Friend has pointed out, youth unemployment in my constituency is substantially down since the last election, not least due to his efforts to ensure that work always pays. However, does he agree with me that approaches to incentivising work are always best if they are universal, unlike the Opposition’s proposal for means-tested youth allowances, which would punish hard-working families and those people who do the right thing?
Mr Duncan Smith
Yes, the reality of what we have been trying to do is to make sure that people can get into the jobs that are available. What they do not need—and what is quite ridiculous about the Opposition’s proposal—is to try to take everybody who is below level 2 up to a level 3 qualification. Some people who do not even have a GCSE in maths, for example, are expected now to do training courses to take them to level 3 before they go into work. The reality is that we are getting them work-ready and giving them the training they need. That is why there are record employment levels of some 30.5 million, which beats what we were left by the last Government.
Mr Duncan Smith
It is worth noting that under the last Government, youth unemployment increased by nearly a half—up almost 300,000—and long-term youth unemployment increased by 74,000. Since then, excluding full-time students, youth unemployment has come down to 7.9%, which is the lowest figure since 2008. Youth unemployment is down 98,000 on the year, and down 91,000 since the election, and long-term youth unemployment is down 25,000 on the year. That is getting the job right.
Oliver Colvile
Plymouth, as my right hon. Friend knows, is a low-wage, low-skills economy. Does he support the Government’s proposal to give Plymouth the city deal for a marine energy park, which will create more than 10,000 new jobs and help provide jobs for the young unemployed?
Mr Duncan Smith
I absolutely agree with that; it is the right thing to do and it shows how this Government are investing in providing in an area the right kind of jobs for the right kind of people. Even in a difficult area such as my hon. Friend’s, the claimant count is down by 27% and the youth claimant count is down by 30% on the year. This kind of investment helps us to get people into real jobs, not jobs subsidised by the Opposition’s proposals.
Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab)
Is the Secretary of State aware that a disabled unpaid voluntary worker has been told by the Department for Work and Pensions that as from now she will be in the same category as part-time workers who have a job? Is this a way of padding out the number of people in employment?
Mr Duncan Smith
I do not know what this case is, but if the hon. Gentleman would like to write to me about it, I will deal with it specifically—
Mr Duncan Smith
Well, I have not seen the letter, but I will once I have ferreted it out. We are not padding anything out—we do not need to, because there are about 600,000 vacancies now in jobcentres up and down the country and we are doing our level best to help people of all descriptions, including those who have disabilities, most of whom would genuinely like to seek and find work. We are working with them to help them get the kind of job that can change their lives, rather than parking them for many years in a row, as Labour did.
Lucy Powell (Manchester Central) (Lab/Co-op)
With so many young people still in unemployment, especially long-term unemployment, does the Secretary of State not think it anomalous that young people can get support in higher education but not in further education?
Mr Duncan Smith
That is not true really, because young people can get help in further education. Under jobseeker’s allowance, traineeships allow up to 30 hours’ training per week—we have made that more generous, because under the previous Government the figure was only 16 hours. For others, two to eight weeks’ full-time training is allowed, depending on the duration of the jobseeker’s allowance. It is one thing to come up with a policy, but another to come up with a policy answering a question that nobody has ever asked.
Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)
Employment rates in Wales are about the same as elsewhere in the UK, which is very welcome, even if historically rather anomalous. However, we have a large number of people who are involuntarily employed part-time, because they cannot get the hours required. Is it fair or even reasonable for the Government to insist that people take on hours when those hours are just not available?
Mr Duncan Smith
The jobcentres do not force anybody to take on something that is not there; the jobcentres are working will all those individuals. I welcome the hon. Gentleman’s welcome for the figures from Wales, because it has been particularly successful, having had some very difficult times, particularly in the valleys. I welcome that improvement in employment. Jobseekers go to the advisers, who help them to find those jobs and take the hours that are available. No one will be punished or penalised for trying to take a job or for working with the advisers and only taking the jobs that are there.
Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con)
6. What assessment he has made of the performance of Universal Jobmatch.
The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)
Universal Jobmatch revolutionises the way jobseekers look for work. Since it was launched in November 2012, we have seen 6.9 million jobseekers register on the site; 4.3 million average daily job searches; over 560,000 jobs available; and more than 550,000 companies set up an account. It has been a successful transformation.
Stephen Mosley
My right hon. Friend will be delighted to hear that more than 5,500 jobs within 5 miles of Chester are being advertised at the moment, which is a massive testament to the number of new jobs that have been created under this Government. However, Universal Jobmatch depends on accurate data, so what steps is he taking to ensure that all the jobs on the site are described accurately, are real and are available for jobseekers?
Mr Duncan Smith
We regularly talk to all the employers. New employers are seen by advisers in the jobcentres in the local area. Fraudulent jobs are rare on the site; it is estimated that fewer than 0.1% of these vacancies have been fraudulent since go-live, and those have been removed. We constantly monitor the Universal Jobmatch system and we crack down on abuse. In addition, employment advisers are meeting all those employers they are not aware of or who have just come up on the system for the first time.
Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)
The problem is that that is just not happening, and perhaps the Secretary of State should accept that. For example, I saw a job advertised in my constituency today for a care assistant in a care home that has just closed down. Jobs are being wrongly categorised. Among sales assistants, we find jobs for account executives, for which qualifications are needed. What exactly is happening with Universal Jobmatch?
Mr Duncan Smith
The problem is not what the hon. Lady describes. It is with Labour Members, who cannot bear the idea that, when they were in government, they had an archaic system that worked only from 8am to 6pm. Our system works for 24 hours. It works while people’s computers are shut down. It nominates jobs, and advisers can offer advice online. This is a major success story. The problem is that Labour does not get it. We are getting more people into work, higher levels of employment and falling levels of unemployment. In fact, we have some of the lowest levels in the European Union.
Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/Co-op)
7. What recent progress he has made on the universal credit programme; and if he will make a statement.
The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)
Universal credit is on track to roll out against the timetable set out last year. The claimant commitment is in place across all jobcentres. Universal credit is live in 14 sites, and from today further expansion is under way across the north-west, with couples and families joining at a later stage. Based on the case load projections, there are, at the moment, around 11,000 people making those claims on universal credit.
Mark Lazarowicz
I am interested in the Secretary of State’s answer. In 2011 he announced that a million people would be claiming universal credit by April 2014, when the true figure was just 6,000. What went so badly wrong with his projections, and what are his current milestones for the delivery of universal credit?
Mr Duncan Smith
I think I made that clear before, but I will repeat it again. Back in 2012, I was not happy with the plan for the roll-out, because it mirrored too much the roll-outs that used to happen under the previous Government—[Interruption.] We hit the bump. [Laughter.] It is interesting that Opposition Members sit there laughing, because I remember the tax credit fiasco. They launched tax credits and people suffered. People did not get their payments and were out of pocket. That has not happened with universal credit. In answer to the hon. Gentleman, I simply say that we deliberately set a pathfinder and we are expanding it now, with 90 new sites. Universal credit is rolling out carefully, and we are ensuring that all those who are eligible get the money that is due to them when it is due. It is not the disaster that we had under the previous Government.
Sir Nick Harvey (North Devon) (LD)
What progress is the Secretary of State making in his discussions with other Government Departments about the various forms of state support they give in the era of universal credit? I am thinking of free school meals, which could be considerably improved. Is the matter all sorted? If it is not, how is he getting on?
Mr Duncan Smith
I believe it is getting sorted. Very soon, the Department for Education will be able to make announcements about its preferred options for universal credit, and we will be able to accommodate them regardless of what it asks for.
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
That is very interesting. In 2011, the then employment Minister, the right hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling), said that the Department would consult on new eligibility criteria for passported benefits such as free school meals
“in good time to take decisions to meet our overall timetable to introduce universal credit by October 2013.”—[Official Report, 7 November 2011; Vol. 535, c. 66W.]
The Schools Minister has only just admitted that it would cost an extra £750 million to give free school meals to the children of all those whom he eventually expects to be on universal credit. Can we clear this up this afternoon? Do the Government intend to give free school meals to everyone on universal credit, or do they intend to introduce a new means test for free school meals? If the Secretary of State cannot give a proper answer this afternoon, as I suspect from the way he is performing, will he at least tell us when he will make up his mind?
Mr Duncan Smith
It is interesting that the hon. Gentleman does this publicly—he was told the answer to this the other day when he came to my office to talk to me directly. Just in case he does not know how free school meals work, let me tell him that they are means-tested today: there is no change to that.
Mr Duncan Smith
Yes, they are, because they are set against means-tested benefits. I wish the hon. Gentleman would get his facts right and learn something about the benefits system. We have a system that will enable us to deliver the free school meals to those who are eligible for them, and not to those who are not eligible for them. The reality is that the mess that the Opposition left us is being cleared up and they cannot bear it. They do not even know whether they support universal credit. They flip-flop more on every policy than any other Opposition ever have.
Julie Elliott (Sunderland Central) (Lab)
8. What estimate he has made of the number of people below the threshold for auto-enrolment in a workplace pension.
The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)
Our reforms have ended a situation in which migrant workers had indefinite access to jobseeking benefits, which we inherited from the previous Labour Government. Since April, we have banned access to housing benefit. From July, migrant workers will have their claims to jobseeker’s allowance stopped if they have claimed for six months and cannot show that they have found employment. I intend to tighten this up further still.
Mr Ruffley
I am grateful for that reply. I congratulate the Secretary of State on the tougher habitual residence test and the new minimum earnings guarantee. Has he received support from European partners for his tougher approach to curb benefit tourism, and are they taking further steps to move the approach forward?
Mr Duncan Smith
I am in discussions with colleagues from various countries in the European Union. Many of them, including the Dutch and the Germans, have made it clear that they essentially support our direction of travel and that some kind of change must be made to the regulations. The German Chancellor made Germany’s position clear, saying that the EU is “not a social union” and there cannot be de facto immigration into other EU social systems.
Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab)
19. What estimate he has made of the number of people who will receive face-to-face guidance at the point of retirement in 2015-16.
The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)
Today I welcome the National Audit Office’s positive response to the report on the child maintenance scheme, which simplifies the system and helps parents work together in the best interests of their children. There will be further to come on this soon. Already we know that twice as many parents intend to pay direct, even before the second stage of our reforms and ahead of expectation.
Rehman Chishti
What support are the Government giving to older workers and their employers in Medway to assist them into work and to build a fairer society?
Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab)
At the start of this year 3,780 people were claiming universal credit. The most recent numbers show that 5,610 people are receiving the benefit. At this rate of progress, how long will it be until the 7.7 million households that are supposed to receive this Government’s flagship benefit, as the Secretary of State originally set out, are receiving it?
Mr Duncan Smith
We have already made that clear. To date around 11,000 people are on the pathfinders. We have started a roll-out to another 90 sites beyond the 10 sites where the pathfinder took place. There will be further changes and enhancements, and we expect and believe, according to the plan that we laid out, that everybody eligible will be on the benefit by 2017.
Rachel Reeves
I think that is the first time I have not heard the Secretary of State say that his project is on time and on budget, but we still hear total and utter complacency. At the present rate of progress, it will take a staggering 1,052 years before universal credit is fully rolled out. So what do we have? Universal credit delayed, personal independence payments delayed and employment and support allowance delayed. Does not the Secretary of State realise that his incompetence is not only wasting tens and hundreds of millions of pounds of taxpayers’ money, but causing untold pain and hardship for some of the most vulnerable people in our country?
Mr Duncan Smith
As I said, we are rolling out universal credit to 90 sites and we will deliver it safely and carefully, unlike what the Labour Government did with tax credits. To answer the hon. Lady’s general question about what we are doing, this Department and this Government have undertaken the biggest welfare reform programme ever and we are getting more people into work—there are record numbers in work and record falls in unemployment; and we are getting more young people into work and more young people who have been long-term unemployed back into work. The benefit cap means that 42,000 people have been capped, as a result of which 6,000 have moved into work.
On universal credit, 600,000 claimant commitments have been signed. There are 6.9 million people registered for Universal Jobmatch. The Work programme—[Interruption.] She does not want to hear this because these are all records of the success of welfare reform. Through the Work programme, 550,000 people whom the previous Government wrote off and who never got a job are now back in work, and through auto-enrolment under the Minister of State, my hon. Friend the Member for Thornbury and Yate (Steve Webb), 3.6 million people have moved into a workplace pension. This is a Government who are reforming welfare. The Opposition have no policies, no purpose and no prospects.
Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con)
T5. This morning I was with the staff and students of Farleigh college of further education in my constituency, which offers excellent education and training opportunities to young people with autism and other complex conditions. What more can my right hon. Friend do to ensure that we reach the goal of full employment by ensuring that increased opportunities exist for young people with learning disabilities and autism?
Mrs Emma Lewell-Buck (South Shields) (Lab)
T4. My local citizens advice bureau has been contacted by a young single woman who has been hit by the bedroom tax. After paying her rent and utility bills, she has just 84p a day left to spend on food and toiletries. With eight households for each available one-bedroom property in my area, moving is simply not an option. How can the Secretary of State continue to try to justify a policy that results in such extreme poverty?
Mr Duncan Smith
We have given local authorities between £300 million and £400 million for discretionary payments. It is their job to ensure that individuals with particularly difficult circumstances can be helped with that money. The overall policy is very simple. It is about people who are living in accommodation that they do not fully utilise, and about others, including the quarter of a million left by the last Government in overcrowded circumstances and the 1 million people on waiting lists. I do not think that the hon. Lady has ever got up and asked a question about those people. The reality is that this policy will help them to get the accommodation they need to improve their lives, and not waste it on people who do not need it.
Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD)
I hear repeated concerns that there may be targets for benefit sanctions at jobcentres. Will the Secretary of State confirm that that is not the case, and send a clear message to advisers that they should not be seeking to sanction people inappropriately to hit some sort of target? Their aim is to help people.
Mr Duncan Smith
I can assure my hon. Friend that there is no target on benefit sanctions, that the advisers give benefit sanctions as a last resort, and that the system has a full set of checks and balances. There is a mandatory reconsideration almost immediately of that decision, and then there is the opportunity to appeal. The purpose of a sanction is to help to remind the individual that this taxpayers’ money comes with an obligation to co-operate; to find work by seeking work.
Lyn Brown (West Ham) (Lab)
T6. Why will the Government not pay universal credit payments to the main carer of children in a family rather than the main earner?
Mr Duncan Smith
Let us pause and get this absolutely right. The reality is that what the Opposition are now saying is utterly illogical. [Interruption.] Let me give the hon. Lady the figures. What is fascinating is that 93% of cohabiting couples and 98% of married couples share their finances, so most of those people will reach a conclusion. The second point is that we have put safeguards in place within universal credit so that the payments can be nominated as an exception if the carer is to receive the money. Right now, this is about a household getting more money than under the existing systems. This is a benefit that benefits more people, and, honestly, the idea of micro-managing everybody’s lives from Westminster is the kind of absurdity that the Labour party tried when it was in government.
Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con)
It is welcome that youth unemployment has fallen by some 59,000 in the past three months, but I understand that there has been an underspend of some £50 million on the Youth Contract budget. Can my right hon. Friend reassure the House that that money will be spent on supporting young people into work?
Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)
T8. It is a great shame that Tory Members of Parliament criticised the Trussell Trust and Oxfam—in fact, some might say threatened them—for daring to suggest a link between food poverty and the social security system: the cuts, the delays, the misapplied sanctions and the abolition of the social fund. Will the Secretary of State now accept his responsibility for what has been a 54% increase in the need for food aid in just one year, and commit to working positively with those organisations to see how his Department can help to address the root causes of food poverty?
Mr Duncan Smith
Inequality is at its lowest since 1986. There are 500,000 fewer people in relative poverty than at the election; 300,000 fewer children in relative poverty than at the election; 200,000 fewer pensioners in relative poverty than at the election; and 450,000 fewer workless households than at the end of 2010. We have done more to help people who are hard up than the hon. Lady’s Government ever did.
Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)
What impact has the Government’s long-term plan had on long-term unemployment, and what representations have the Government received on long-term unemployment from the Opposition?
Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)
I have been here since the beginning of Question Time and may I tell the Secretary of State that I have been sickened—there is no other way to describe my feelings—by his complacent indifference to the agonising hardship suffered by the most vulnerable in our society? He should be ashamed of the policies he is pursuing.
Mr Duncan Smith
The only sickening thing is the last Government plunging the economy into such a crisis that more people fell into unemployment and hardship as a direct result of the incompetence of the people whom the hon. Gentleman has progressively supported.
Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con)
Under this Government, how many more women are now in employment?
Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab)
After nine months, fewer than 200 people in Hammersmith and Fulham are on universal credit. This morning the shadow ministerial team visited Hammersmith’s citizens advice bureau to hear directly from my constituents about the catastrophic failure of the Secretary of State’s Department in every area of operation. Is his failure to roll out universal credit just a cover-up of another DWP crisis in the making?
Mr Duncan Smith
Isn’t that interesting? What a revealing statement. We have endlessly offered the Opposition Front Bench team the opportunity to visit jobcentres where universal credit is rolling out, but only one spokesman went—[Interruption.] No, the shadow Secretary of State never went and is refusing to go. Now she would rather visit citizens advice bureaux than the people who are actually delivering universal credit. Surely that is the most pathetic excuse I have ever heard.
Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
I have a number of very sick constituents who have been pushed into severe financial hardship as a result of unacceptable delays in the PIP process. Some of them are now dependent on food banks. I listened carefully to the Minister earlier, but will he set out a timetable for clearing the backlog for all applicants, not just the terminally ill? What interim support will he offer to those having to wait more than 28 days?
Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)
Underlying the overly positive spin that Ministers have put on the employment figures is the fact that for the first time ever the majority of families living below the poverty line are in work. What are the Government going to do to make sure that work is always a route out of poverty?
Mr Duncan Smith
Nothing is more revealing than when the Opposition start claiming that we somehow have to spin the fact that there are more people in work now than when we came into office. We will soon break through the barrier and have the highest proportion of people in work. Unemployment is falling, youth unemployment is falling, and adult unemployment is falling. We do not need to spin facts, because facts in this case tell us that our welfare reforms are working.
Jobs and Work
Iain Duncan Smith Excerpts(10 years, 3 months ago)
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The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)
It is always a pleasure and an honour to conclude a debate on the Gracious Speech. I urge right hon. and hon. Members to oppose the amendment, which I will address later. I congratulate Members on their speeches. I have sat here for some time listening to them and the quality of speeches by Members on both sides of the House was of the highest order, particularly given the time constraint, which was imposed for good and obvious reasons. I congratulate in particular those who had to change their speeches after being addressed by the occupant of the Chair.
I congratulate and agree with my hon. Friends the Members for Norwich North (Chloe Smith) and for Stourbridge (Margot James), who spoke about the importance of youth employment and the way in which we are now driving youth employment up and unemployment down. On support for growth in manufacturing employment, my hon. Friend the Member for Stourbridge said that manufacturing employment is now growing and improving after a fall of 2.5 million under the previous Labour Government. As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills said in his opening remarks, we are getting more balance in the economy as a result of the work we have been doing, which is different from what was going on before the recession.
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Worcester (Mr Walker), who talked about the small business measures and measures to get rid of excess zero-hours contracts, which my right hon. Friend the Business Secretary spoke about earlier. Many Opposition Members spoke passionately, and rightly so, about excesses in employment, particularly with regard to zero-hours contracts, but, as my right hon. Friend said, they never once addressed zero-hours contracts throughout their time in government. To listen to them, one would think that zero-hours contracts were an innovation created by this Government and that they began some time last year, but they did not: they were running under the previous Government, and it is only this Government and this Business Secretary who will address the matter, which is what Labour should have done.
As I recall, the last time that the hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Austin Mitchell) and I spoke in the same debate, he urged me to vote against the Government. I did, and look what happened. Today, he advised us that we should borrow more, but I do not think that I will listen to him this time, if he does not mind—it got me into more trouble than I like to think about last time. However, I welcome him to his place and recognise that he also attacked the previous Government for the amount of quantitative easing they oversaw, which he said was wrong.
My hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood) was making an effective speech about international matters before he was interrupted. I commend him for managing to get his speech out, regardless of the change in the interpretation of the rules. He made a really important point about the taking of Mosul, which is a terrible issue and we need to deal with it.
I welcome the fact that the hon. Member for Blaenau Gwent (Nick Smith) welcomed the rise in employment in Wales. I will pass on to the Transport Secretary his views about the electrification of the railway to Swansea.
My hon. Friend the Member for Cleethorpes (Martin Vickers) spoke very well about the increase in small business. He rewrote his speech as a result of the ruling from the Chair, and I congratulate him—I do not know whether he is in his place—on making a brilliant five-minute speech with no warning at all.
My hon. Friend the Member for Tamworth (Christopher Pincher) spoke about the good results from business men in his area, and particularly about making sure that small business is supported. My hon. Friend the Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke) also spoke about that, as well as about the increase in people’s disposable income—that is true—and economic models showing that the UK is now growing faster than any other country.
The hon. Member for East Lothian (Fiona O’Donnell) spoke about abuses of zero-hours contracts. In relation to what she raised earlier, there is no mandation on zero-hours contracts and there are no sanctions. I provide that for clarification and so that she is aware of it.
My hon. Friend the Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Eric Ollerenshaw) welcomed the fall in unemployment and the grant of assisted area status for Fleetwood, which I pass on to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, who is in his place. My hon. Friend said we should push on with shale gas, and I fully agree that it has potential benefits for us all.
The hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Stephen Twigg) and my hon. Friend the Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams) spoke about vocational training. I welcome the speeches of my hon. Friends the Members for Reading West (Alok Sharma) and for Folkestone and Hythe (Damian Collins), who spoke about real falls in unemployment and rises in employment, particularly youth employment, in their areas. My hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Chris White) spoke about growing business and manufacturing.
I welcome the speech of the hon. Member for Rochdale (Simon Danczuk), which was mentioned by the hon. Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves). He made me feel very hungry, as I am sure she did, by talking about Danczuk’s Deli. I hope that we can give it more advertising—I can promise him that something in return would be very welcome after three hours on the Front Bench.
My hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield (David Rutley) said that the Federation of Small Businesses had welcomed the Bill on small businesses in the Queen’s Speech as a “landmark Bill”. I agree that the Bill to protect small business is a landmark measure.
My hon. Friend the Member for Weaver Vale (Graham Evans) spoke about the importance of the fall in unemployment in his constituency. Youth unemployment there has fallen by 41%, which I welcome. Apprenticeships in his area have risen by 27% since he became its Member. I am not sure whether that fact is directly connected to him, but it will not do him any harm in his area.
I congratulate the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson) on the very strong and powerful points she made about taking the burden off small businesses.
In their opening and closing speeches, Opposition Members made no reference whatever to one of the big and important features of the Queen’s Speech, which is the continuation of pensions reform. I will say a few words about that because it is very important. I start by paying tribute to the Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions, my hon. Friend the Member for Thornbury and Yate (Steve Webb). It is way past time for him to be made right honourable, given the work that he has done—I say that to my hon. Friends—because the work that we have done in concert will leave behind a serious platform of pensions reform. The House will come to recognise that and the fact that his work will have rewarded many people. Obviously, we are ensuring that it pays to work, but also, most importantly, that it pays to save, which is one of our major platforms.
Let me just remind the House what we have introduced since being in office. There is the triple lock on the basic state pension; it is worth about £440 more in 2014-15 than it would have been under uprating by earnings, which was the process we inherited. Under automatic enrolment, more than 3 million people have already joined pension schemes, and there are more to come. We have capped rip-off charges, banned hidden charges and set minimum quality standards. Vitally, there is a new state pension, which is set above the means-test level, so that those who have contributed at the full rate for 35 years are guaranteed a decent minimum income.
We are now going further, with a pensions Bill that will pave the way for innovation, competition and choice. We will introduce new flexibilities, trusting individuals to use their own money in retirement as they see fit, not as the Government tell them to do. Our consultation on guaranteed guidance closes today. We intend to strike a balance between impartiality and deliverability, alongside robust standards and monitoring.
At the same time, we are enabling the creation of a defined ambition pension, which is wholly compatible with the new flexibilities, to facilitate greater risk pooling, while offering savers greater certainty. There was a degree of confusion on the Opposition Benches when the Minister of State said that he had been looking at that idea for some years. My shadow, the hon. Member for Leeds West, tweeted on 1 June:
“I said last week Labour will legislate to introduce collective pensions. Days later, ministers are following suit”.
I did not know we acted that fast. After all the years that my hon. Friend has been considering the idea, the hon. Lady suggests that we owe it to her that we have brought it in. She recently attacked the Labour leadership for not showing enough passion, but she must not confuse passion with accuracy. I notice that we have the pair of them here: the shadow Secretary of State for Work and Pensions and the shadow Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills.
When we talked about freeing up annuities, there was chaos among the Opposition. During his speech on the Queen’s Speech, the Leader of the Opposition did not mention pensions reform. The next day, the shadow Chancellor said only that Labour would look at the Government’s proposals—he did not tweet at all. The day after that, the hon. Member for Leeds West said that she supported the reforms. By the weekend, the shadow Business Secretary backtracked and said:
“I’m not going to sign a blank piece of paper on your show”.
Later the same day, my shadow also backtracked, saying that Labour supported the reforms, but that they did not go far enough. The Opposition have been in complete chaos and confusion about these landmark pension reforms—some of the most important that will ever be introduced. The reason why they have been in chaos is that they really do not trust people to dispose of their own money, which they have worked for and saved, whereas the Government do.
Throughout the shadow Business Secretary’s speech, he would not accept that any of the problems that we have had over the past four years were caused by Labour’s great recession. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills reminded him—and it is worth reminding him again—that the recession that happened on Labour’s watch cost the British economy £112 billion and cost 750,000 people their jobs. Youth unemployment increased by nearly a half, long-term unemployment almost doubled in just two years, 5 million people were left on out-of-work benefits and one in five households had no one in work. The shadow Business Secretary wonders why we want to go on talking about that. We do so because we do not want anyone out there ever to forget that Labour almost destroyed the British economy.
Mr Duncan Smith
No, I do not have time.
Under this Government, there is record employment. More than 30 million people are in work. Employment is up this quarter, with the largest rise on record. It is up 1.7 million since the election. Record numbers of women are in work. There is record private sector employment, which is up by 2 million since the election. Three quarters of the rise in employment is made up by full-time jobs. Over the past year, more than three quarters of jobs went to UK nationals, reversing the damaging trend of Labour’s last five years in office.
I close today’s debate on the Queen’s Speech with a very simple point: we cannot trust Labour to be in control of the British economy ever again. The Government are helping people into jobs and ensuring that those who work hard and save all their lives are properly rewarded. To set the record completely straight, there are now more people in work than ever, more women in work than ever and more people in private sector work than ever. Youth and long-term unemployment is falling, and we have the lowest rate of workless households since records began. The Queen’s Speech allows us to build on our success, not Labour’s failure. I commend it to the House.
Question put, That the amendment be made.
Scotland Analysis (Work and Pensions)
Iain Duncan Smith Excerpts(10 years, 5 months ago)
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The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)
I laid before the House on 23 April 2014 the latest paper in the Government’s Scotland analysis programme, “Scotland analysis: Work and Pensions”. This series of publications is designed to inform the debate on Scotland’s future within the United Kingdom ahead of this year’s referendum.
The paper sets out why a UK-wide social security system and labour market works well for Scotland. It considers how the UK’s broad tax base ensures Scotland benefits from secure and stable funding and how by pooling resources, variations in demand for social security support in one part of the UK can be absorbed without varying the levels of funding received by individuals. It sets out how by remaining in the UK both the higher levels of social security expenditure in Scotland and future costs pressures from an ageing population are more affordable.
In the future the number of pensioners is predicted to increase, and cost pressures will increase accordingly. The paper highlights that an independent Scottish state would face a more acute challenge than the UK as a whole, both from demographic change, and its ability to absorb the impacts from a narrower tax base. The paper finds that an independent Scottish state could face additional social security costs rising to around £1.55 billion per year over the next 20 years (in today’s terms) as a result of demographic changes and policy commitments by the current Scottish Government. This would result in a total increased cost of around £450 per working-age person per year in Scotland over the next 20 years, than if spending per working-age person was at average UK levels.
The paper also sets out how an independent Scottish state would also face costs and complexity from unpicking the UK’s integrated social security infrastructure. It explains there would be costs in developing and setting up new systems while running costs could increase as economies of scale are lost. The UK Government would do nothing to put at risk the continuity of payments to their own citizens and would not be prepared to incur significant costs to change IT systems to cater for a different approach in Scotland. The paper also finds that if Scotland does not use sterling as its currency, it would not be possible to share a benefit system even for a transitional period.
The paper concludes that Scotland’s citizens and employers benefit from being part of the UK and the UK benefits from having Scotland as part of it.
Oral Answers to Questions
Iain Duncan Smith Excerpts(10 years, 6 months ago)
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Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con)
5. What steps his Department is taking to promote financial inclusion and to help families to budget.
The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)
Through universal credit, the Department for Work and Pensions is investing £38 million in expanding credit union services to help more people to access affordable credit. A budgeting support package will be available to all those who need it through universal credit. At the same time, the Government are clamping down on loan sharks and doorstep lenders who have taken advantage of vulnerable people for too long.
Damian Hinds
In this 50th year of credit unions in Britain, may I commend the Secretary of State for what he continues to do to support the sector? Will he update the House on what is being done to tackle the excesses of the payday lenders he mentioned?
Mr Duncan Smith
The Financial Conduct Authority will limit continuous payment authorities, which allow payday lenders to take money out of people’s bank accounts, to two payments. The FCA will keep that under review. It is also preventing CPAs if a person would be left without money to buy essentials or for priority debts. We have already seen some payday lenders leave the market because it is being restricted in the right way. It is worth saying that before the last Government came to power, payday lending did not exist, but it spiralled to £1 billion-worth under them.
Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Has not the source of the pressure on family budgets been policies such as the freeze in child benefit and the cuts to tax credits, which have left families hundreds of pounds worse off?
Mr Duncan Smith
The biggest pressure on family budgets was the fact that far too many people lost their jobs as a result of the crash in the economy, in which GDP fell by 7.2%. Since then, we have reformed welfare. It is difficult when people are out of work, but we are doing huge amounts to get them back into work. As my hon. Friend the Minister of State has said, more people are in work, more women are in work and more young people are beginning to get into work, so we are getting more people into a position to look after themselves.
Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con)
Financial resilience for families in my constituency can be a real challenge. One of the biggest impacts on the family budget can be the loss of a loved one. Does the Secretary of State think it is now time to consider whether social fund funeral payments should be index linked to inflation to ensure that they keep pace with the cost of funerals?
Mr Duncan Smith
I am certainly prepared to discuss the matter with my hon. Friend if he wants to come and see me about it. I keep that area of the social fund under review, as he knows. We localised about £200 million of the social fund to councils so that they could deal with the problems people face directly. We also kept the remaining money, so a total of about £1 billion goes out to all sorts of things, such as funeral payments, support for loans and support for people in hardship. This is a big push by the present Government to help people ahead of payday lenders.
Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab)
Last week the BBC reported that just 6% of households affected by the bedroom tax had managed to move. Also last week, a report from Real Life Reform showed that nearly eight out of 10 tenants hit by the bedroom tax were in debt, with borrowing increasing by an average of £52 each week and families increasingly relying on loan sharks. Rather than preaching about careful budgeting, why do Ministers not just scrap this hated and unworkable tax, which is sending people spiralling into debt?
Mr Duncan Smith
It is interesting that the Opposition and the hon. Lady take the view that people moving is a bad thing. Let me just tell her—[Interruption.] It is interesting that they say that, but 30,000-plus people—I will repeat that: 30,000 people—who were in overcrowded accommodation have now had the opportunity for the first time to move into houses where they are not overcrowded. The hon. Lady and the Opposition left us with a quarter of a million people in that position—250,000—so in 10 months over 10% have had the opportunity to move and we are saving over £1 million a day. I call that a success.
Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab)
6. What steps he plans to take to tackle long-term unemployment.
Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) (Con)
12. What assessment he has made of the effectiveness of the benefit cap.
The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)
The benefit cap is working. The latest statistics show that 39% of those who are no longer subject to the cap have since moved into work. We will evaluate the policy thoroughly, and expect to publish the findings in the autumn.
Ian Swales
The average yearly pay in my constituency is about £21,000 before tax and national insurance. Does the Secretary of State think that a benefit cap of £26,000 gives people outside London an incentive to work?
Mr Duncan Smith
The introduction of the benefit cap meant that, for the first time ever, people who were out of work could not end up with more than the average earnings of people who work hard and try to make their way in the world. That was the first stage of the process. Obviously, as with all our policies, we continue to look at it, but I currently have no plans to change the existing levels.
Stephen Metcalfe
Given that Members in all parts of the House have now supported a cap on benefit spending, will my right hon. Friend tell us whether he has received any representations on how it is possible to promise to repeal some welfare reforms such as the benefit cap while at the same time avoiding a breach of the overall cap?
Mr Duncan Smith
Interestingly, the Opposition voted against the imposition of the benefit cap, which they subsequently claimed to support. Last week they did a U-turn and voted for the welfare cap, which is the overall setting of the level of welfare. They plan to get rid of the spare room subsidy, but they have not told us where they will find the money. So here we go again: it will mean more money in taxes, more money in spending, more money in borrowing, and a bust economy once more.
Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab)
9. What progress he has made on the mesothelioma compensation fund scheme; and if he will make a statement.
Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)
14. How many IT specialists are working on the digital solution to universal credit.
The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)
We continue to build up the Department’s digital capability, having launched the Government’s first digital academy and brought in a man called Kevin Cunnington, who was previously global head of online at Vodafone. Some 370 people are working full time on the universal credit change programme. The aim of any multidisciplinary team is that individuals should come and go, reflecting requirements at each stage. A team of 50, of which 25 are digital specialists, is currently working alongside other experts, and it is steadily building and on track.
Chi Onwurah
It is my understanding that the Secretary of State plans to continue the development of the existing, discredited universal credit IT system while building a new system in parallel, on the recommendation of the Government Digital Service. Will he confirm whether that is the case, and set out how much extra that double development is going to cost? Also, how is he going to recruit the skills he needs, given the current shambles?
Mr Duncan Smith
First, on the skills side, we have been recruiting and we have also been educating internally at the DWP, which has been a big success. The digital process, which is about improving this, will carry on. It is the development that was recommended for the longer term. In the meantime, the live service is running, and the system is not discredited. It is working, with the pathfinder rolling out through the north-west, and it will continue to roll out. The vast majority of the equipment being developed in that will be used within the digital system, so those who say that the money being spent on that is being wasted are simply wrong. It will be used in the medium and longer term for all of the universal credit roll-out.
Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)
In developing universal credit and its IT system, what lessons have the Government drawn from IT projects conducted by the previous Government?
Mr Duncan Smith
The reason why we are doing this in a way that tests it at each stage, so we make sure we have got it right before rolling it out and taking more numbers on board, is because we want to make sure that taxpayers’ money is protected through this process and that the system works. I recall, as I am sure my hon. Friend does, that when the Labour Government launched tax credits it was a total disaster; we had loads of people in our surgeries with real problems relating to payments. This Government will never revisit that, which is why I will never accept any advice from the lot who wasted billions on failed IT programmes.
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
I know the Secretary of State loves to argue that black is white and white is black, but how on earth can he possibly stand here and suggest that this project is “on track”? The Government promised that 1 million people would be on universal credit by tomorrow—by 1 April this year—but how many are on it? He said at the beginning of the month that there were 6,000, but the figures given by the Minister of State, the right hon. Member for Wirral West (Esther McVey), show that fewer than 4,000 are. So precisely how many people are working on the IT? Is it 50, as the Secretary of State just said, or is the figure eight, as the Minister of State said earlier this month?
Mr Duncan Smith
I know the hon. Gentleman likes to get up and speak, but sometimes he needs to be aware of the facts that have been given to him. I have just given those facts, but because he was not listening I will give them again. Of the team of 50 working on the digital system, 25 are digital specialists—there will be more as we develop it and report back. May I simply say that instead of moaning about this system, Opposition Members might like to visit it, as many other MPs have done, because they will see how successful its rolling out has been? Some 90% of the claims for JSA as a result of universal credit are now made online, and 78% are monthly payments—these are people confident to receive those payments. [Interruption.] The reality is that the systems the Labour Government implemented were failures, whereas this will succeed and change many people’s lives.
Mr Speaker
Order. Mr McCann, I say to you in all courtesy and in all charity that the role of the Parliamentary Private Secretary—you are sitting in the PPS slot—is to nod and shake the head in the appropriate places, and to fetch and carry notes, not to shriek from a sedentary position or gesticulate in an unseemly manner.
Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)
Will my right hon. Friend confirm, and remind the House, that universal credit is set to deliver £35 billion of benefit to our economy?
Mr Duncan Smith
Yes, I agree with my hon. Friend on that. The National Audit Office report said that a minimum of £38 billion would actually be the positive elements brought to the UK economy and those who are in need. The real problem is that the Opposition say they support it, but they carp about it. The reality is that every change they ever brought in was a failure. They wasted billions of pounds of taxpayers’ money. We will implement this carefully and because of that, people will benefit, rather than suffer, as we all recall they did when Labour introduced tax credits.
Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con)
15. What recent assessment he has made of the effect of universal credit on employers.
The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)
The Department has consulted widely with employers over the past 12 months to ensure that universal credit works in the best way possible for them. The Minister with responsibility for welfare reform recently met national employers, trade bodies and employer representative groups, and we know that universal credit will have a positive impact on employers through the flexibility it brings to their work force—unlike tax credits.
Mark Pawsey
I thank the Secretary of State for that answer. He will be aware the Rugby jobcentre is among the first six offices to introduce universal credit. Will he join me in complimenting the staff there on achieving a successful roll-out in a complicated procedure? Given recent concerns about child care, will he reassure the House about the availability of child care support under universal credit for families in work?
Mr Duncan Smith
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising that issue, because under universal credit we will increase the child care level to 85% of the cost. We will be investing a further £400 million a year in a steady state, and 500,000 families will gain. These are positive incentives to go back to work. Child care costs are now paid up to a maximum of £646 per month for one child and £1,108 for two or more children. In universal credit we are removing the 16-hour rule, which exists in tax credits and is a major disincentive for many lone parents and others to take jobs—that has been abolished, and some extra £200 million will help 100,000 families back into work.
Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) (Lab)
17. What recent assessment he has made of whether the UK will meet the 2020 statutory child poverty target.
The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)
The Government are committed to the Child Poverty Act 2010 and to ending child poverty by 2020. It is not possible accurately to project child poverty figures, but already we are seeing progress in tackling the root causes. Just last week, we learned that there are now 290,000 fewer children living in workless households compared with 2010, and that has a net impact and effect on child poverty.
Catherine McKinnell
The Secretary of State mentions reducing the number of children in workless households, but today child poverty is overwhelmingly a problem for working families. Since 2010, the number of parents who work part time but who want to work full time is up 45%. What are the Government going to do about the prevalence of low-paid insecure work that is trapping families in poverty?
Mr Duncan Smith
The last figures that covered people who were in work and in poverty were misrepresented by those who talked about them. In truth, those figures reflect what happened under the previous Government, when we saw an increase of 500,000 families who were in work and in poverty. That has been flat since the election. We are working on that to ensure that we get as many people out of poverty as possible. The reforms that we are changing and making to get people back to work, which the Minister of State, my right hon. Friend the Member for Wirral West (Esther McVey) has talked about, will have a huge impact on those who are in poverty now.
People are better off in work. Despite what Labour did, people have more chance now to change their circumstances and more likelihood of coming out of poverty. Let me remind the hon. Lady of one little fact. Labour spent £175 billion of taxpayers’ money on one benefit—chasing a child poverty target that it simply did not achieve. That was wasted money.
Mary Macleod (Brentford and Isleworth) (Con)
T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.
The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)
We were pleased this week to find elements of—that new families formed were no longer breaking up. These figures came out last week to ensure that we are making our programmes work for very good reasons. Families are now staying together. Stable families in households being able to—[Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. May I gently interrupt the Secretary of State? I thought that he was going to give a brief rundown of his departmental responsibilities in answer to the first topical question.
Mr Duncan Smith
I was talking about the figures that came out last week on new families forming and staying together.
Mary Macleod
May I thank my right hon. Friend for the work that he and his Department are doing in transforming lives and getting people back into work? In preparation for my jobs and apprenticeships fair on Friday, will he confirm the job vacancy figures for both London and Brentford and Isleworth?
Mr Duncan Smith
At the end of last week, there were 927 active vacancies and 1,493 active jobs in the Brentford and Isleworth constituency. The vacancies were largely in retail, travel, transportation and tourism. The jobcentre has also worked with Asda and Premier Inn to deliver work experience and sector-based work academy opportunities.
Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab)
Just 46% of disabled people are in work, while 40% of disabled people not working report that they want to work. Helping disabled people into work provides them with security and dignity as well as helping control the costs of social security. Will the Secretary of State tell the House what proportion of disabled people referred to the Work programme get a job?
Mr Duncan Smith
The Work programme has been successful for those who are furthest from the labour market. The group of people the hon. Lady is talking about who suffer from sickness and disability have, for the first time, been worked with and helped back into work. The figures that we are seeing now are slower than we would have wished, but they are, none the less, improving all the time. Let me remind the hon. Lady that no one has ever attempted to get these people back into work. The Work programme is succeeding in helping into work those who were never in work before.
Rachel Reeves
The truth is that just 5% of disabled people on the Work programme end up in work. If that is a success, I would like to know what failure is. It is worse than doing nothing. It is a disgrace to let disabled people down in such a way. In the Budget, spending on employment and support allowance was revised up by a staggering £800 million because of delays, incompetence and the complete failure of the Work programme. Will the Secretary of State now agree to take action to help disabled people and give them the support they need and reform the failing Work programme?
Mr Duncan Smith
Let me remind the hon. Lady that, as I said earlier, for these people, and the previous Government made no effort whatsoever to get them back to work—[Interruption.] No, 2.5 million people were written off on sickness benefits under the previous Government. No one worked with them and about 1 million were left without anybody seeing them for nearly 10 years. That is the record of the previous Government. I simply remind the hon. Lady that since we came to power, some 22,000 have started a job for the first time and many thousands more have worked with the Work programme to get ready for work without a requirement to go to work. The programme is succeeding and improving all the time and this is the first time that the thousands who are going back to work have ever had help—they got none from the previous Government.
Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con)
T2. What is my right hon. Friend’s assessment of how the Government’s triple lock guarantee for increases in the state pension has benefited thousands of pensioners in my constituency and across the country?
Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con)
T9. What recent assessment has the Secretary of State made of the innovation fund in helping disadvantaged young people?
Mr Duncan Smith
The innovation fund, which started with £30 million put in by my Department, has helped to build up the concept for social impact bonds, which will help to invest in the sort of projects that my hon. Friend is talking about. The trials have been to help children from the ages of 14 to 16 to get remedial education and to be job-ready. That has been a huge success and we will in due course publish the figures, but it opens the marketplace to new money from private investors and trusts.
Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab)
Last week, the Select Committee on Work and Pensions published a report that recommended that the backlog for the PIP assessment should be cleared before the Government continued with the migration from the disability living allowance to PIP. Will the Government accept that? Will the fact that Atos has now lost the contract for the WCA have an impact on PIP? What action has the Minister taken to speed up new claims for PIP?
David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con)
Given the German Government’s determination to clamp down on EU migrant benefit abuse, does my right hon. Friend agree that there is growing support among key EU member states for this Government’s agenda on this vital issue?
Mr Duncan Smith
Yes, there is huge support in other countries. Recently, Mrs Merkel, the Chancellor of Germany, said:
“There is a need for clarity: who is entitled to claim social security in Germany, and under what conditions.”
The Deputy Prime Minister of the Netherlands, among others, has said exactly the same. I am in discussions with many of my counterparts across Europe to make sure that we, as individual independent nations within the EU, will be able to impose the conditions we require to stop migrants coming here just to get better benefits than they would in their own country.
Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab)
With thousands of PIP claimants waiting six months or more for even their medicals before they get anywhere near any money, will the Minister say exactly what penalties he is imposing on Atos and Capita for failing so abysmally?
Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)
Does the Secretary of State agree that, when it comes to a jobs guarantee, in the real world there is no such thing as a guaranteed job and that new, genuine jobs can be created only by growing companies?
Mr Duncan Smith
What is interesting about the Opposition’s view of a jobs guarantee is that their future jobs fund failed. We have introduced work experience, which costs a tiny proportion of what the future jobs fund cost—some £300, as opposed to £6,000 or nearly £7,000 a job—and as many people get into work and come off benefit as did under the future jobs fund. Labour’s make-work schemes do not work, but our schemes, which get private sector employers to help, do. We are getting people back to work.
Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)
More than 15,000 people in my constituency, which is over 40% of those in work, earn less than the living wage. For millions of people the employment figures hide the reality of underemployment, zero-hours contracts and part-time, low-paid and insecure work. I wonder whether the Secretary of State can tell me how many of his constituents earn less than the living wage.
Mr Duncan Smith
I never heard Labour Members moan much about the living wage when they were in government, but all of a sudden it becomes an issue. The reality is that we are doing more to get people back to work, which gives them a chance to improve their living standards and incomes. The reality is that I took the decision to ensure that my Department pays the living wage, including to the cleaners. The Opposition never did that. I think that we stand ahead of them in that matter.
Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)
Has the Secretary of State noticed that when the spare room subsidy was first removed the Opposition and their mouthpiece of choice, the BBC, complained that too many people would be removed from their homes, yet last week Labour BBC was complaining that too few people have been removed from their homes? In the interests of fairness, surely taxpayers not on housing benefit who cannot afford a spare bedroom should not be expected to pay for a spare bedroom for people on housing benefit.
Mr Duncan Smith
The first and principal point is that this programme is saving over £1 million a day for hard-pressed taxpayers, many of whom, as my hon. Friend said, cannot afford a spare room themselves but were paying taxes to subsidise those who had spare rooms. The second point is that over 30,000 people who were once in overcrowded accommodation, left behind by Labour in terrible conditions, are now moving into better houses. This programme is a success. The Opposition did nothing about those people the whole time they were in government.
Mrs Anne McGuire (Stirling) (Lab)
In my constituency the waiting time for PIP assessments is now 26 weeks. [Interruption.] After further investigation, I discovered that that is because of a lack of suitable accommodation in which to carry out assessments. Why was a contract signed with Atos when there were no suitable premises in my constituency in which to carry out PIP assessments?
amendment of the law
Iain Duncan Smith Excerpts(10 years, 6 months ago)
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The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)
Last week the Chancellor presented his Budget, reiterating this Government’s commitment to a long-term economic plan. [Interruption.] I will say that again—a long-term economic plan, something that Labour does not have or is in search of, I am not sure. We are restoring the public finances and supporting businesses while providing security and stability for Britain’s families. I must say that today’s other news that inflation is down to 1.7% is very good news for hard-working families.
Following Labour’s great recession, which, I remind the House, wiped out 7.2% of our economy, worth £112 billion or £3,000 for every household in the country—it is still in denial—last week we learned that our economic recovery is now established and taking hold faster than originally forecast.
Mr Duncan Smith
I will give way, but many Members want to speak, so first I want to make a little progress.
A year ago, the Office for Budget Responsibility predicted that growth in 2014 would be 1.8%. Now, the forecast is 2.7%, the biggest upward revision between Budgets for at least three decades. The deficit has fallen by a third in three years, and is forecast to halve by next year. By 2018-19, the OBR expects the public finances to move into surplus by some £4.8 billion for the first time in 18 years. Before that, in 2017-18, the fiscal mandate will be met a year early. Employment has been revised up and unemployment revised down in every year of the forecast.
David Wright
The right hon. Gentleman was talking earlier about the process under the previous Government, and he claimed that it was Labour’s recession. When he was leader of the Conservative party was there any point at which he did not agree with the spending plans of the then Chancellor of the Exchequer?
Mr Duncan Smith
I remind the hon. Gentleman that when one goes into government one is responsible for what happens. I know it is hard to take, but I have always believed that one wants to go into government to take responsibility for all the things that take place while one is government. He may not want to know it, but the reality is that the Labour was in government, the recession was very hard, and people have suffered.
There is still more to do—we have not done enough—if we are to secure Britain’s future. That is why the Budget set out further investment to ensure a resilient economy that delivers the promise for business that it can compete with the best in the world, and hope for families—this is important—about their prospects now, and for their children’s futures. From next week, corporation tax will be down to 21% from the 28% inherited from Labour, and will be down again to 20% next year—the joint lowest in the G20—making it competitive to invest in Britain, which is good for jobs and good for young people.
That will be matched by the best export finance, doubling direct lending to £3 billion and the investment allowance to £500,000, so that British business can take advantage of the best opportunities at home and abroad. Again, that is good for investment and good for growing jobs.
We are cutting tax not just for business but for Britain’s hard-working people, ensuring all can share in the benefits of Britain’s growth. By raising the personal allowance threshold to £10,500 next year, we are taking some 3 million of the lowest paid out of tax altogether and ensuring 25 million people pay less.
As a result of those changes since 2010, the typical taxpayer is £800 better off—something that Labour’s simple measure of real earnings fails to recognise. Similarly, through new child care support, we are helping families overcome prohibitive costs and ensuring that more parents find that it pays to get a job. Under universal credit, we have already invested £200 million to remove the 16-hour rule, so that 100,000 families in mini-jobs or part-time work receive help for the first time. Now, we are going further still, increasing child care support from 70% to 85% of costs so that work pays more for half a million families.
It pays to work, and now, finally, it pays to save, reversing the damaging trend whereby for too long Britain has borrowed too much and saved too little. The radical changes to retirement saving announced in the Budget are possible only because of the significant pensions reforms the Government have already delivered: a triple lock on the state pension; auto-enrolment to make saving the norm, helping up to 9 million save in a workplace pension—over 3 million are already saving, and I give due credit to the Minister of State, my hon. Friend the Member for Thornbury and Yate (Steve Webb) for that—and, vitally, the single-tier pension, for which I again give credit to my hon. Friend, set above the level of the means test, so that those who have contributed for 35 years have a secure basic income, without having to resort to additional state support in later life.
Mr Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con)
I listened carefully to what my right hon. Friend said about incentives to work. Will he say a little about the 450,000 fewer workless households, and the 290,000 fewer children living in such households? Perhaps that has something to do with his welfare reforms.
Mr Duncan Smith
I am going to come on to that, but one of the great success stories is the fact that the number of workless households has fallen for the first time in 30 years. My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and I shall give a few more details about that in a second.
Mr Duncan Smith
I shall make a little more progress before giving way to the hon. Member for Edmonton (Mr Love).
As a result, for the first time, we can rethink the rules and trust people to use their own money as they see fit, not as the Government tell them. After the Budget, gone will be the prescriptive limits on how and when people can turn their pension pot into annual income, which, we all agree led, for too long, to inertia among consumers and risked locking people into low-yield annuities, with rates that have fallen by 15% since 2009. In countries such as the United States, Australia and Denmark, Governments do not impose restrictions. Now, that will be the case in the UK too, freeing people to shape their finances in retirement as they choose, which is absolutely right.
We are consulting on guaranteed guidance—an important feature of the Budget—asking the Financial Conduct Authority to work with the pensions regulator, consumer groups and others, to develop a robust set of standards and monitoring arrangements, with £20 million provided to kick-start that thinking. Whether people choose to buy an annuity as now, take the cash, or grow their pension pot, the reforms will increase the attractiveness of saving for retirement. That will pave the way for new financial products, increasing competitiveness in the market, driving innovation and a better service, as well as giving people new choice over their future.
Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op)
The OBR has forecast that under the Budget the savings ratio will fall to 3%. Is the Secretary of State concerned about that, and what action will he take to get savings back on an upward path?
Mr Duncan Smith
As I recall, the savings ratio under the previous Government fell to all-time lows, and under this Government it will be higher at the end of this Parliament than it ever was under Labour. When I take interventions from the Opposition they always fail to recognise that the economy crashed in 2009-10, taking 7.2% off gross domestic product, which had a staggering effect on savings and everything else. The reality is that we will have a better savings position, which will grow, given the fact that we are working to improve savings in pensions in the workplace, with a single-tier pension and giving people the right and responsibility to choose where their savings go.
Mr Duncan Smith
I have given already way to the hon. Gentleman, and I just want to make another point about something that is typical of what has been going on.
On Wednesday, in his Budget response, the Leader of the Opposition did not mention pension reforms at all. Come to think of it, he did not mention any single measure in the Budget. On Thursday, the shadow Chancellor would say only of the measure that Labour would somehow look at the proposals. On Friday, in a panic, I think, the hon. Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves) said on “Any Questions” that she supported the reforms. On Sunday, when asked whether he supported the measure, the shadow Business Secretary began to backtrack and said:
“I’m not going to sign a blank piece of paper on your show”.
Later the same day, the hon. Member for Leeds West began to backtrack, saying that Labour supported the reforms but that they did not go far enough. Labour’s position on this policy is a complete shambles. It has struggled to reach a position and say that it may support the measures not because it believes in it but because it realises that it is popular. The reason Labour does something is all about popularity and nothing to do with values—that is the truth of it.
Over and above the radical changes to pensions savings, the Budget announced four further important measures to make saving pay, including abolishing the 10p rate for savers altogether, for the first £5,000 of savings. As my right hon. Friend the Chancellor said, when we abolish a 10p rate, we take it to zero; when the previous Government abolished the 10p rate, they took it to 20p. Those measures also included merging cash and stocks to create a single, simple new ISA, with an increased annual limit of £15,000; launching a new pensioner bond, paying market-leading rates; and introducing something that we have worked on in the Department with the Treasury and my right hon. Friend, the excellent Chief Secretary: a class 3A national insurance contribution, so that anyone who has reached state pension age before the single tier is introduced can top up their state pension.
The Opposition’s response is becoming chaotic. I want to press the hon. Member for Leeds West: normally by this point in the Budget debate, I understand, the Opposition make it very clear what resolutions they will vote against, but we have heard nothing from them at all. It seems that there is a row and chaos, so I will give way to the hon. Lady if she would like to tell us which ones.
I particularly want to ask her about resolution 43, which, I understand, is about the treatment of salaried members within limited liability partnerships. I wonder if she can tell us whether the Opposition will vote against that, given the fact that their economic policy is now fundamentally limited, that their leadership is a liability, and, after all their rows, that they are clearly not in a partnership? I will give way to her if she would like to tell us which resolutions she is going to vote against. Will she confirm or deny that she is voting against anything? I will give way to her if she wants. Well, they clearly do not know, Mr Speaker, so we will look forward to this evening with some relish.
It now pays to save. That is what is going on—I am glad that you enjoyed that joke, Mr Speaker; you are always a good test on these things—and so under the Government it pays to work, breaking dependency and getting people back into jobs.
Mr Speaker
For the avoidance of doubt, I should just say that I was happy to see the Secretary of State looking happy.
Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)
The Secretary of State will be aware that, for very many people, the average level of savings is in the hundreds, not the thousands. Do the Government regret abolishing the savings gateway as one of the first measures they took on coming into government?
Mr Duncan Smith
When the hon. Lady got up to make an intervention, I wondered whether she would take the opportunity to say how much she welcomes the fact that unemployment has fallen by 20% in her constituency—a very good thing. I know she does not want to say that, but I say it for her.
I have to say to that no, we do not regret that. What we have undertaken since we came into power is going to hugely incentivise and improve pension savings and the savings marketplace. The extra vehicles announced in the Budget will rapidly improve that and I believe, all in all, that we will have a much better savings position than we inherited, so I think I have answered that question.
I need to make the point about employment and unemployment. Let me get this right: when we came into power, we inherited a situation where unemployment rose by nearly half a million. At its peak, some 5 million were on out-of-work benefits—1 million for a decade or more—and in one in five households, no one worked. The number of households where no member had ever worked doubled under Labour, from 184,000 in 1997 on an upward trend to 351,000 by 2010. I do not recall Labour Members mentioning those figures, and they avoided them when they were in power.
Correspondingly, since we came to power, unemployment is down 168,000 since the election. The claimant count has fallen by almost a quarter over the last year, which is the fastest annual fall since 1997. Workless households have fallen to the lowest rate since records began, down 450,000—two percentage points—since the end of 2010.
At the same time, we now have record employment: more people in work than ever before, more women in work than ever before and more people in work in the private sector than ever before—up over 1.7 million since the election. Ninety per cent. of the increase over the last year has come from British workers, unlike before, and more than three quarters of the increase since the election is from full-time work, up over 1 million compared with part-time work, which is up only 300,000.
Here is the point: we hear a lot from Labour Members about what they would do if they were in government, but youth unemployment increased under the previous Government by nearly half from 1997 to 2010—up almost 300,000. Now, on what the shadow Work and Pensions Secretary called
“the failure of this government to get young people into work”,
youth unemployment is down 81,000 on the year and is lower than what we inherited. The International Labour Organisation long-term youth unemployment is also down 37,000 on the year. The number of young people out of work and not in full-time education is down 63,000 and the long-term youth claimant count is down 23,900 on the year, having fallen for the last 15 consecutive months.
I remind the Opposition, who are chuntering away from a sedentary position, that under them long-term unemployment nearly doubled in two years, from 400,000 in 2008 to 800,000 in 2010. While they were seeing that rise, they gerrymandered the figures on the claimant count: 80,000 were put on to training allowances so that they came off the measurement of whether they were long term unemployed. Even though they were back out of work or back out of training, they went back as though they had just started their claims.
The trend slowed and is now falling. ILO long-term unemployment is down 38,000 this quarter and is down 59,000 on the year. The number on the claimant count for 12 months, ungerrymandered, is down 74,000 on the year—a fall of 17%. That is down, I believe, to so many of the reforms and changes that we have made, improving the labour market and improving the process of getting people back to work. The latest labour market statistics are remarkable and nothing demonstrates more clearly the Government’s success in getting Britain working.
Mr Duncan Smith
Again, I say to the hon. Gentleman that he really needs to address his question to those who were governing, because, as I said earlier, GDP fell by 7.5% under the previous Government during the recession. What does he think forced those economics for individuals and working households to fall? It was the fact that there was a massive recession—the biggest for 100 years —on Labour’s watch.
I want to make some progress. The latest labour market statistics are remarkable. The Work programme that we brought in is now helping long-term unemployed people dramatically: half a million people under the programme have started a job; 252,000 have now gone into sustained work; and 10 times as many people have achieved job outcomes now compared with the end of the first year.
Compared with the flexible new deal, one of Labour’s great flagship programmes, under the Work programme, twice as many people have gone into a job, and it costs £5,000 less per place according to all the estimates. So, too, with the work experience programme that we brought in, allowing young people to take a work experience placement for up to two months while still keeping their benefit. That has helped 50% of participants off benefits and into work. It has the same success rate as the future jobs fund, but at a 20th of the cost—£325 as opposed to £6,500 of wasted money. What is more, the majority of places are in the private sector, whereas the future jobs fund created jobs almost exclusively in the public sector.
This Budget has been very good for jobs but it is very good for apprenticeships as well. The Government have already committed to a quarter of a million more apprenticeships than Labour ever planned, with 1.6 million starts since 2010. The Budget announced £170 million more for another 100,000 apprenticeship grants and for developing new degree-level apprenticeships as well. It is important that the Government are not only finding and helping to find people work, but helping to shape their skills and experience.
Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con)
In the Secretary of State’s list of successes, rightly attributed to the businesses in this country and the Government’s policies, will he also make reference to those that are now being supported by the enterprise allowance and the start-up schemes? As we saw at my recent jobs fair, more people are seeking self-employment as well.
Mr Duncan Smith
I pay tribute to my neighbour and hon. Friend for his phenomenal work on the jobs fairs, on all the creation he has done and on the work he has done with local unemployed people. He is absolutely right: the new enterprise allowance has been a phenomenal success. Thousands of people have started their own businesses under it. It is one of the big success stories of this Government. It is going to grow and we are going to ensure that many more people, particularly young people who are more and more keen to start their own businesses, get the kind of support they want.
Sheila Gilmore
Does the Secretary of State not have any concern that even now there are 2.3 million people unemployed, and as his own statement made clear, the total has gone done by only some 160,000 since the election? The figure was 2.4 million before the election and now it is 2.3 million. What has gone wrong with getting those people into jobs?
Mr Duncan Smith
Of course I want to see more people back in work, particularly young people, but the hon. Lady must remember that we inherited from the previous Government an economy that had hit the buffers, with young people cascading out of work in the two years running up to the election. Youth unemployment rose over their whole period in office, which suggests to me that their policies were hurting young people long before the recession. What we are doing is aimed at getting more people back into work. We have been successful in improving the situation, as the figures now are better than those we inherited—more people are in work, including more young people—but of course there is more to do, and it is this coalition Government who are doing it.
We are also introducing our other programmes, including the Work programme and universal credit, with the pathfinders moving into the north-west and eventually rolling out by 2016. We know that 90% of claims for jobseeker’s allowance and other benefits are already being made online, which is a huge change—only about 10% or 12% were made online before—that is improving speed and accuracy. Some 78% of claimants are confident about their ability to budget with monthly payments, as a result of the programmes we have run. Two thirds think that the universal credit process offers a much better work incentive than jobseeker’s allowance. Even in its early stages, universal credit is having a significant impact on people’s work prospects: claimants are likely to spend twice as long looking for work; two thirds agree that it is easier to understand their obligations; and 86%—rising to 90%—are confident of gaining a job within three months, which is a much higher rate than for jobseeker’s allowance.
These are dynamic changes that we are making, improving the path back to work, the incentives and the choices that people make. We are improving their work prospects and helping them into meaningful, long-term jobs. However, I gather from the Chief Secretary that the Treasury received a submission from the Opposition in the run-up to the Budget for an alternative to our programmes, which they call a jobs guarantee. I thought that we should look at that, just to examine whether it was worth embracing. I think it only fair that we tell the House whether or not it would work. Having looked at the proposal in a completely ambivalent manner, I have to say that it is confusing. The first submission said that it was a six-month programme for young people. The second submission said that it was a year-long programme. The third submission said that it was a two-year programme for the long-term unemployed. I gather that there is now some suggestion that it might be a six-month programme for everybody.
Apparently the jobs guarantee is now a flagship policy for the Opposition, but I understood that it would be funded for only one year. Now we hear that the same funding they announced for one year is meant to last all the way through a full Parliament. We asked the Treasury to do some formal costings for that, which I hope have been made available to the Opposition. They said that their scheme would cost only £1.9 billion in its first year and £0.9 billion thereafter, but the Treasury’s formal costings—[Interruption.] I know that Opposition Members do not want to listen, because the last thing they want to hear is how they would pay for it The Treasury, which is full of decent people doing a hard day’s work, has shown that there is a massive gap of £2.6 billion per year between what the Opposition say their jobs guarantee will cost and what we calculate it will cost.
Not only have the Opposition underestimated the costs by £0.6 billion in the programme’s first year, and £1.7 billion in future years, but they have no robust means of funding it. They say that they will fund it with a bankers’ bonus tax that will raise £2.3 billion, which is questionable, but I understand that they have spent that 10 times over. Let me list a few of the things they have committed to spend it on: reversing the VAT increase, which would cost £13.5 billion; more capital spending, which would cost £5.8 billion; reversing child benefit savings, which would cost £3.1 billion; reversing tax credit savings, which would cost £5.8 billion; and more housing, which would cost £1.2 billion. They have made £30 billion of spending commitments, apparently to be paid for by a tax that would save them £2.3 billion.
Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that the lesson of Labour’s crash is that more spending, more borrowing, more debt and more taxes do not work? Does this not show that the Opposition have not worked that out, because they have spent their bankers’ bonus tax more times than the number of sides on the new £1 coin?
Mr Duncan Smith
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The reality is that the Opposition are not very good at learning lessons. Were they in power again, I suspect that they would crash the car into the buffers, just as they did the last time.
At the same time, the Opposition’s proposal for restricting pensions tax relief has been called “extraordinarily complex” by the IFS and “unworkable” by the CBI. Labour needs a little reminder that make-work schemes are enormously expensive and, worse still, a mean attack on these pension proposals. The saving they expect to make from pensions tax relief is another mean attack on people who do the right thing by saving for their future. Labour has learnt nothing. Its proposal is even possibly a rehash of its old StepUp programme, which ended up costing a massive £10,000 per place before it binned it, rather than introducing it.
There we have it: a policy—the only one I have heard from the Opposition—that is full of flaws, unfunded and simply would not work. It is small wonder that when asked they said, “Okay, this will be about the private sector.” Actually, the future jobs fund, on which this proposal is based, never got jobs in the private sector. In fact, Barnsley council reported that only 7% of those jobs were in the private sector, and Birmingham council reported only 2%. It is small wonder that when asked to confirm whether that would be for private sector jobs, the shadow Chancellor said:
“But if not, you can do it through the voluntary sector. If not… you have to have a final backstop: public work scheme.”
If not one, then the other, but if not that, then another one. It begins to sound a bit like Vicky Pollard: “Yeah but no but yeah but no.” They have no policy for employment at all. To this date the private sector’s response has been unequivocal:
“Wage subsidies for employers are not the source of sustainable jobs… Government must focus on creating the conditions for growth”.
It is the same old Labour; the same old failed policies.
A little over a year before the next general election, this Budget sets out the choice now facing the electorate. On one hand we have an Opposition who every day are mired in confusion, who have voted against every reform measure and who have learnt nothing. After making welfare spending balloon by 60% during their time in government, they now want to spend more.
I want to ask the hon. Member for Leeds West what she meant by something she said when addressing a meeting of Christian socialists—perhaps they were just socialists, but I am not sure. She said:
“It will be much better if we can say all the changes that the Government has introduced we can reverse and all benefits can be universal.”
There we have the beating heart of Labour, and the public should know this—[Interruption.] They are cheering, because that is exactly what they want. Only now will they vote for the welfare cap—although I understand that a number of them will not—but they have no intention of sticking to it. That is only because, as the hon. Lady went on to say, to do what she wants to do would at the moment appear unpopular. They do something because it appears popular, not because they believe in it.
Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con)
I wonder whether my right hon. Friend can help me. Does he know whether it is now the policy of Her Majesty’s Opposition to have an individual welfare cap or a universal budget cap? It is not only hon. Members in this place who would like to know what their policy is; 27 bishops in the other place would, too.
Mr Duncan Smith
With respect, I have found in the past few weeks that I cannot really answer for bishops. They usually think they can answer for me, which is a fair response, but I am happy to avoid that challenge.
The Opposition have been quite confused about the welfare cap. They say that they are going to support it, but within the cap they have a policy they say they are going to change by ending the spare room subsidy. [Interruption.] Opposition Members call it a bedroom tax. I noticed that when they said last week that there were 24 tax rises under this Government, they did not schedule that as one of those tax rises. The truth is that they know it is not a tax, so, as ever, they are trying to fool the public. Let me point out that reversing that policy will cost them up to £500 million a year, and they have, they say, produced only one measure within the welfare cap that they will use to pay for that—means-testing winter fuel allowances for wealthier pensioners, but that will save only £100 million. Almost as soon as they vote for the cap tomorrow, they will be planning to break it. Perhaps the hon. Member for Leeds West can tell us—I will give way to her if so—what other elements she is going to change within the capped programme to reduce spending to bring it under the cap. Will she will intervene to tell me that? Of course not; she has no idea. There we have it—it is just a game for them. The only reason they might vote for the cap is that they are worried that it would be unpopular not to do so, but they do not intend at any stage to implement it.
On the other hand, this coalition Government are reforming welfare in the firm belief that it is the right thing to do, not only saving money but breaking dependency and restoring the incentive to work. We have record highs in employment and record lows for the rate of workless households. What is more, this Government are rewarding hard work and saving, in the belief that people have a right to take their own decisions on the money that they have earned, not dictating to them through high taxation or forcing them to buy poor yielding products as the previous Government did. This Budget delivers support for those who try, help for those who need it, and security for hard-working families up and down the land. I commend this Budget to the House.
Mr Duncan Smith
The hon. Lady has mentioned her jobs guarantee, which Labour has said will involve the private sector. Which companies have actually signed up to it?
Rachel Reeves
The compulsory jobs guarantee, which will last for the full five years of the next Parliament, will be based on what we have seen with the jobs growth Wales programme, whereby 80% of the jobs are in the private sector. A couple of weeks ago, the shadow Minister for employment—my right hon. Friend the Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms)—and I visited a software company in Cardiff that had taken on 12 people through jobs growth Wales. It had made a huge difference to those young people, giving them hope and opportunity. The Government carp at our policies to get young people back to work, yet under them long-term youth unemployment has more than doubled. That is the Secretary of State’s record under this Government.
If the Chancellor really wanted this to be a Budget for savers, he would cap fees and charges on pensions and require insurance companies to provide free independent brokerage, as Labour has called for. Why did the Chancellor not do those things? It is because he is strong when it comes to standing up for the rich, but weak when it comes to standing up for the poor.
Rachel Reeves
The right hon. Gentleman will not have to wait too long: at 7 pm, he will find out how we will vote on the different measures. Let us be clear: what matters most of all is what was omitted from last week’s Budget, including a compulsory jobs guarantee, a cap on fees and charges and cancelling the bedroom tax. Those things would make a real difference to the lives of our constituents, but the Chancellor did not even mention them in last week’s Budget statement.
The Secretary of State has not just failed with the Work programme; he is failing with universal credit as well. It is years behind schedule and £130 million has already been wasted on IT, yet the Secretary of State continues to say that his flagship reform is on time and on budget.
Rachel Reeves
He continues to do so now. If three years later and £130 million down the drain is on time and on budget, that says more about the Secretary of State’s grasp of mathematics than anything else.
The truth is that from Easterhouse—where the Secretary of State had his epiphany—to the Vatican, people are queuing up to tell the realities of this Government’s reforms. Rosemary Dixon, the chief executive of a charity on the Easterhouse estate in Glasgow—the Secretary of State might remember her—has said that the simple truth is that “things are going backwards.” A letter from 27 bishops stated that
“we must, as a society, face up to the fact that over half of people using foodbanks have been put in that situation by cut backs to and failures in the benefit system, whether it be payment delays or punitive sanctions.”
Archbishop Vincent Nichols has said that
“the role of food banks has been crucial to so many people in Britain today and for a country of our affluence, that quite frankly is a disgrace.”
The Secretary of State says that he is on a moral crusade. The people affected by his policies know what sorts of morals he has.
Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Stourbridge (Margot James). I want to concentrate my remarks on the social economy. I draw the House’s attention to my—unpaid—entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests.
Since the crash of 2008, there have been a difficult few years for countries around the globe. Many companies have struggled to find investment and to grow. Ordinary people have very often been faced with redundancy and unemployment. That particularly applies to our young people, of whom nearly 1 million are struggling to find work. Public services have been cut quite dramatically, and many are facing increased demand at the same time, none more so than in the spheres of the national health service and social care.
Against that very difficult background, and as we enter what I certainly hope will be a period of better economic news of sustained growth and job opportunities, we have a real chance not to do business as usual, but to take a new path towards what many of us have talked about in this House—a more responsible capitalism. At the moment, it is still a fairly nebulous concept, but I believe that we can start to put some flesh on the bones and to invest in the social economy.
For the past 18 months, I have convened a group of local authorities, social enterprises and some large corporate firms to consider how we might come together to get the public sector, the private sector and the third sector to work in a much more integrated fashion. We have done that under the banner, “Doing good is good business”. Social enterprise has always been a passion certainly of mine, but it is now taking a much more central position in our economy. In this country, there are 70,000 social enterprises, which contribute £18.5 billion to the UK economy and employ about 1 million people. It is no longer a niche part of our economy, but is becoming absolutely mainstream. In Europe, one in four new businesses that starts up is a social business. Some 35% of people who left private sector employment last year have gone into the social economy. It is really moving on apace. There are now many brilliant social enterprises. I have Unlimited Potential and Social adVentures in Salford. In the constituency of every hon. Member, there will be social enterprises that not just provide jobs and opportunities, but bring into our economy the absolute gold dust of innovation and creativity.
I want us to give a real boost to social enterprise on a cross-party basis, but we also need to do something about public procurement. The Public Services (Social Value) Act 2012, which I helped to take through the House, empowers public authorities to take into account social, economic and environmental impacts, as well as value for money. That can be absolutely transformational, provided that we get behind it, give it teeth and really make it work.
Mr Duncan Smith
I pay tribute to the right hon. Lady, whose work in this area has been really first rate. I told her that last time we met, over dinner at Apsley House, but I am just dropping names. Will she take her point a little further, because the creation of social impact bonds is a very big and important area? I know that she is a big supporter, but how does she see that rolling out, particularly now that the Budget will bring in tax relief for it?
Hazel Blears
I am absolutely delighted that social investment tax relief has been set at 30%. Some estimates suggest that that might liberate up to £500 million of extra investment into the economy. At a time of austerity and when there is very little public money about—whichever party is in power—we must absolutely seize the possibility of mobilising private capital for public good.
I pay tribute to the Secretary of State, because he has been a pioneer. He set up his social investment fund, which has catalysed the market in Department for Work and Pensions areas. I have spoken to the Secretary of State for Education to try to get something similar in relation to social mobility and educational attainment, and he is very interested. I said to him, “The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions is a bit of a pioneer, so why don’t you get involved in this as well?” I have also spoken to the Minister of State, Department of Health, who has responsibility for social care, to look at social investment bonds for the care of the elderly, particularly in relation to dementia, which is a huge issue for all of us and, indeed, countries across the world. Mobilising private capital to enable us to transform public services is an extremely exciting agenda.
I want to say a word about the Public Services (Social Value) Act, because a whole range of local authorities are now taking up the new powers, including my own in Salford, as well as Liverpool, which has declared itself a social value city, Birmingham, Wakefield, Hackney and Lambeth. People from all political parties and local authorities of all shapes and sizes want to commission in this new way. We now need transparency, through metrics and measurements, so that the people on this playing field can get some recognition.
One of the most exciting things is that some companies in the private sector want to do exactly the same in moving from traditional corporate social responsibility into using their mainstream business model to make a social impact. Companies such as Fujitsu, Veolia, Interserve and CH2M Hill are now looking at their supply chain to see how they can get social enterprises and small businesses to bring them the agility and creativity that such big global enterprises sometimes cannot put into the system. In particular, Fujitsu has done a report called “Collaboration Nation” about building a very different supply chain. It has told me that it absolutely sees the business case for doing so, because it is able to develop new products. It is also attracting the best talent, because these days young people want to work for an organisation that has values, and to go home at the end of the day being proud of what they do. All those private sector companies want to do that and be responsible capitalists in that way, but we must encourage them and recognise that this will be a long-term agenda.
I say to the Chancellor and the Secretary of State that if we could extend the Public Services (Social Value) Act to goods and infrastructure—that is where the big spend will be in the next 10 to 15 years, not necessarily on services and revenue expenditure—why can we not have social clauses in procurement for High Speed 2, for the possible new airport, or for regeneration projects that bring apprenticeships, get a better supply chain and make a social impact?
As I said, I am delighted that social investment tax relief is being brought forward. We now lead the world in that, and at the G8 meeting that I was privileged to attend we could see how much the United Kingdom’s creativity has taken that forward. There are now a whole range of new social investment bonds. We have just signed one off in Manchester to help young people come out of care, and to provide foster care and adoption, which is an amazing ability.
When I went to Brussels last week I met Commissioner Andor, who was hugely encouraging about social procurement and social investment. We are about to launch some local investment funds. The first was launched in Liverpool two weeks ago, and we would like to have 10 to 15 across the country over the next year. We are hoping to do that in Greater Manchester, bringing together European Union structural social funds with social investment, to provide unsecured loans to social enterprises of £50,000 to £100,000—exactly the kind of loans they need.
All that brings the social economy into the mainstream. We used to think about social enterprise as a niche or an add-on to the mainstream economy, but no longer. If we take what measures we can to make social procurement mainstream, including goods and infrastructure, and to support social enterprises to make social investment and the market grow in the long term, we can genuinely harness the innovation that is often in social enterprise, together with people who want to do capitalism in a more responsible way and the engine of the public sector. In doing that we will show that “doing good” really is good business.
Child Poverty Strategy 2014-17
Iain Duncan Smith Excerpts(10 years, 7 months ago)
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The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)
Today, jointly with my right hon. Friend the Minister of State for Schools, I am publishing the Government’s draft child poverty strategy 2014-17. We are seeking views through a public consultation, closing on 22 May 2014.
Our draft strategy builds on the good progress we have made so far in tackling child poverty. Despite the tough economic climate, employment has increased by 1.3 million since 2010 and the number of children in workless households has fallen by 274,000. Poor children are doing better than ever at school; the proportion of children on free school meals getting good GCSEs including English and maths has increased from 31% in 2010 to 38% in 2013.
Alongside our strategy, we are publishing an in-depth evidence review which identifies what leads families to be stuck in poverty and what leads poor children to become poor adults. By identifying and understanding the root causes of child poverty, now and across generations, we can target action effectively. This is an important step in our mission to eradicate child poverty.
Based on the evidence in the review, our strategy sets out the action Government are taking to tackle child poverty.
It sets out how we will tackle poverty now through supporting families into work and to increase their earnings, support living standards through decreasing costs for low-income families and prevent poor children becoming poor adults through raising their educational attainment.
However, central Government action cannot, by itself, end child poverty. Action is also needed by employers, the devolved Administrations, local areas and the voluntary and community sector. Today, we are asking for views on what more can be done and how we can all work together to end child poverty. Only by working together can we transform the lives of the poorest children in our society.
Housing Benefit
Iain Duncan Smith Excerpts(10 years, 7 months ago)
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Rachel Reeves
All that money could have been spent on building the houses we need to deal with the overcrowding crisis and other crises of which the Government speak; instead, house building is at its lowest level since the 1920s.
Let me turn to the loophole. Just when we thought that things could not get any worse, the latest shocking turn in this sad and sorry story was the revelation last month that because the Government could not even draft their own legislation and regulations correctly, many of the households that they had told local authorities should be made to pay the bedroom tax—those who had been in continual receipt of housing benefit for the same residence since 1996—were in fact not covered by the legislation.
The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)
The hon. Lady referred to the National Housing Federation report and claimed that it said there was cause and effect with regard to the implementation of this policy and arrears. May I quote something to her and then hear what she has to say about it? The report actually said that it is
“difficult…to attribute any observed rise in outstanding arrears since 31st March 2013 to the introduction”
of the spare room subsidy “alone” and that the situation needs to be monitored. Secondly, it said that the vast majority of housing associations reported no rise in evictions. Would the hon. Lady like to withdraw her previous comments?
Rachel Reeves
The facts speak for themselves: two thirds of the households hit by the bedroom tax have fallen into arrears and councils up and down the country are trying hard not to evict people, because they know it is the wrong thing to do. They are trying to help people and we should welcome that and applaud them for doing the right thing, unlike this Government, who are failing to do the right thing.
Rachel Reeves
The right hon. Gentleman knows full well that this scheme is retrospective in a way that the scheme for the private sector was not. The people affected by this loophole have been living in their properties since 1996. They thought they had a secure and permanent tenancy, but it turns out that they do not, because they cannot afford to live in the home they have lived in for, in some cases, their whole lives.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. You are both up at the same time. Is the hon. Lady giving way?
Mr Deputy Speaker
Order. There can be only one person on their feet at a time. It is up to Rachel Reeves whether she wants to give way to the Secretary of State. She has given way to him once already and it is for her to judge whether she will do so again.
Heather Wheeler
In the last two and a half years what conversations has the hon. Lady had with her council? My district council is now building council houses. My Conservative council is building one, two, three and four-bedroom council properties. What have Labour Members been doing?
Mr Duncan Smith
My hon. Friend is in full flow and I think she is magnificent. May I remind her that the answer to that question is that under the previous Government the building of social housing fell to its lowest level since the 1920s? Opposition Members talk a lot about it, but they did absolutely nothing for those living in overcrowded accommodation.
Heather Wheeler
That says it all. I know that this is meant to be a 90-minute debate, but I wonder whether the Opposition want to give up now because we are having the most ludicrous conversation. I feel so sorry for the voters and residents who are looked after by people who scream and shout and say that they look after the most vulnerable people in society, but physically do nothing about it.
Oral Answers to Questions
Iain Duncan Smith Excerpts(10 years, 7 months ago)
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Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con)
9. How many people have had their benefits reduced to the maximum of £26,000 (a) nationally and (b) on the Isle of Wight to date.
The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)
By December 2013, 36,471 households had been capped nationally. Local figures obviously vary from area to area. The Isle of Wight is an area that does not get capped as much; some 100 households or fewer have been capped so far. These numbers include single households without children, for whom the cap is less than £26,000.
Mr Turner
The average gross wage on the Isle of Wight is just over £18,000, so take-home pay is about £15,000. The benefits cap is £10,000 more than the average islander earns. How can I explain this to islanders? Does the Minister think that I should mention that the Labour party believes that there should be no limit at all on the largesse of taxpayers?
Mr Duncan Smith
Far be it for me to recommend to my hon. Friend what he should mention to his constituents, but he might well start with the fact that this benefits cap was opposed by Labour when we implemented it. His point about the level is simple. We have embedded the cap now, it has been rolled out and we have made sure that it has worked properly. We have seen a huge number of people move back to work; some 19,000 people who were going to be capped have gone to work and thus avoided the cap. So the cap is successful everywhere. However, we should remember that there are differences in income and in London a lower cap would be a rather severe penalty to put on people. Therefore, although I keep the cap under review, I have no plans at the moment to change its level.
Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)
The hon. Member for Isle of Wight (Mr Turner) clearly wants the cap to be reduced in his area and the Secretary of State makes an important point about London. Does that not suggest that there is some argument for taking into account regional variations in costs, so that the cap reflects what is happening locally?
Mr Duncan Smith
I am intrigued and pleased that the hon. Gentleman says that he supports the principle of the cap, which is more—in essence—than the Opposition have ever done in any vote. They voted against the cap—just in case they have forgotten. My point to him is a viable one. The trouble is where should regional calculations be made? Cities in regions have different levels of income from some of the countryside, so it starts to become quite a complicated process. Of course, I am willing to discuss this issue with the hon. Gentleman and anybody else who thinks that they have a plan, and I will certainly look at that, but right now the cap is successful, the majority of the public think it is a good idea and it was only his Front-Bench team who decided to vote against it.
Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)
Does the Secretary of State think it appropriate to consider putting a cap on the amount of housing benefit that landlords can receive? Can we at the very least have some transparency, so that we can see how many people who support the Tory party rake in hundreds of thousands of pounds in benefits?
Mr Duncan Smith
I do not know if it is now Labour policy to cap landlords in that way; I suspect that the immediate effect would be fewer landlords making properties available. It seems to me that that would be a complicated, tortuous and pointless policy. However, I think there is plenty of transparency; some of the papers seem to have found out the facts for themselves.
Laura Sandys (South Thanet) (Con)
18. What recent progress his Department has made on the roll-out of universal credit.
The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)
Since October, universal credit has started running in Hammersmith, Rugby and Inverness and it is rolling out today in Harrogate and Bath. It is already out in a number of other centres up in the north-west. Based on caseload projections, some 6,000-plus people are likely to be paid universal credit in the pathfinder. That will be subject to confirmation in the official statistics. Many more claim jobseeker’s allowance using the key elements of universal credit, which are also being rolled out to a wider audience. Some 270,000 jobseekers are now using elements such as the claimant commitment, which is part of universal credit.
Nick Smith
Well, the Secretary of State is certainly going faster than universal credit.
Under the Government’s original timetable 1 million people would be receiving universal credit by April this year. When does the Secretary of State now expect this 1 million target to be met?
Mr Duncan Smith
I have said constantly and I continue to say that we will not be giving out targets for dates. As I said earlier, roll-out has begun. I invite the hon. Gentleman to go to any one of the centres and talk to the staff there and to the claimants. He will find that what is happening is a real improvement in their seeking work and getting work, and in the advisers being able to apply themselves to those with the greatest difficulty. Universal credit will have rolled through by 2016, as I said, with all those benefits merged into one, and people will be claiming universal credit, not any other benefit.
Laura Sandys
I am a strong believer in behavioural change, and my behaviour will change shortly—but just before it does, what assessment has my right hon. Friend made of the behavioural change that is happening as a result of the introduction of universal credit?
Mr Duncan Smith
I say to my hon. and highly informed Friend that it is important for us to understand what this is all about. Colleagues on either side of the House should attend centres where universal credit has been rolled out. They will hear from the advisers that we are beginning to see a real change in culture among those who are claiming benefit and those who are delivering it. All the centres that I have visited believe that this is improving the situation for claimants, and it makes life a lot easier and a lot more efficient for advisers in jobcentres.
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
Would that the Secretary of State were as informative as the Speaker. The answer to the question on the Order Paper—in other words, how many people are on universal credit—is 3,200. Bearing in mind that so far universal credit has cost £612 million, that is £191,250 per person, which does not compare very well with the £6,500 per person that was mentioned for the future jobs fund. It seems that the Prime Minister was right when it comes to Government pet projects: money is no object. When will the Secretary of State allow the Opposition direct access to his officials so that we can sort out his mess?
Mr Duncan Smith
I rather hope that at some point the hon. Gentleman had a maths O-level, because his maths is so pathetic as to make it risible. He has all the numbers and all the amounts that are relevant to the development of all the equipment that will roll out the complete universal credit. [Interruption.] I am going to answer this question. In truth, the operational running costs of the pathfinder, which is what we are running at the moment, are some £6 million, which equates to £200 per claim. By the way, he needs a little correction. In case he had not noticed, we have already invited him and all his colleagues to come and visit us. I think they are down to visit us this week, so he needs to check his diary, or maybe his colleagues did not want him to come with them. I do not know.
Graeme Morrice (Livingston) (Lab)
15. What assessment he has made of the effects of the migration of claimants from incapacity benefit to employment and support allowance.
Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)
17. What recent assessment he has made of the extent of abuse of zero-hours contracts in back-to-work schemes.
The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)
Under the Work programme, providers are paid for getting people into sustained work, generally a job of at least 16 hours a week, paid at the national minimum wage or more, and which lasts for a minimum of six months. That can be two or three jobs, but none the less, they have to last for six months.
Outcomes are counted on that basis, therefore DWP does not hold information about the employment contract itself. Moving someone on to a zero-hours contract would not count as a job outcome unless it entailed meaningful work that was registered, taking them off benefits.
Chi Onwurah
My constituent was taken on by a security company on a zero-hours contract with a promise of 40 hours a week, but he has been given only 17 hours, while the company takes on more staff from the Work programme with more promises of proper hours. He cannot pay his rent, he cannot sign on because he would be considered to have made himself unemployed, he cannot plan and he cannot live. When will the Secretary of State end this abuse of zero-hours contracts?
Mr Duncan Smith
As I understand it from what the hon. Lady said, her constituent was not taken on under the Work programme, but others in the Work programme were, which was causing him the problem. If she wants to give me the full details of the case I will look at it, because that is slightly different from what I understood her question to be about. If there is an abuse among the Work programme providers in this regard, I will certainly deal with it.
Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
Will the Secretary of State look at those vacancies, particularly in the Ryedale jobcentre, that are the most difficult to fill, which tend to be in the care sector? Will he also look at any abuse of zero-hours contracts in the employment of carers, whether under the Work programme or any other long-term sustainable work?
Mr Duncan Smith
First, may I say how pleased I am to see my hon. Friend in her place? It is my personal hope that she remains there and returns to the House again, because she gets great coverage for her constituents. The issue she raises is an important one, but we need to get the right balance between what zero-hours contracts deliver and any abuses there might be. The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills is carrying out a consultation, and we are fully co-operating in that and will ensure that such contracts do not cause problems in the Work programme. However, it is worth remembering that those contracts also provide people with a flexible way of working and the freedom to arrange jobs around other commitments, and they allow employers to be competitive in response to market trends. I therefore think that we must get the balance right with zero-hours contracts and not throw the baby out with the bathwater. We must recognise that for many people they are positive and helpful, but we also want to end any abuses there might be for others.
Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)
19. What plans he has to meet representatives of the Trussell Trust.
The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)
Although food banks are not a Department for Work and Pensions or Government responsibility, Department representatives and Ministers—myself included—have on occasion had cause to meet representatives of food banks, including the Trussell Trust.
Susan Elan Jones
A decade ago at Easterhouse the Secretary of State said how important small, grass-roots community organisations are. If he really believes what he said then, when he spoke the rhetoric of broken Britain, is not it time he set a date, met the representatives and listened to what they have to say about food poverty in the United Kingdom?
Mr Duncan Smith
I have two points for the hon. Lady. First, I have just said that all of us have at some point met representatives of the Trussell Trust. Secondly, I absolutely think that those involved in food banks and in supporting those who are in difficulty or in need are very valuable members of the community, and I celebrate the work they do. I believe that it is the right thing for them to do. I think that all those involved in food banks are decent people trying to do a decent bit of work for those in need of help, and we support that in general terms as constituency MPs. However, I must say that the over-politicisation of this issue has done no help at all, as some leaders of food banks have attested over the past week.
Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)
The Trussell Trust has been exposing the real impact of Ministers’ policies, so out of pique they have refused to meet the trust’s representatives since last summer. Now that they have been overruled by the Prime Minister, who met trust representatives last week, will DWP Ministers at last step up to their responsibilities? Was not the Cardinal Archbishop of Westminster absolutely right when he said last week that
“there shouldn’t be people living with nothing, in destitution, in a country which is as prosperous as this”?
Mr Duncan Smith
I have two points for the right hon. Gentleman. First, he, his party and others have deliberately set out to politicise the issue of food banks—[Interruption.] Well, those are not my words. The person who runs the Oxford food bank has said:
“I think this whole debate has become hopelessly politicised.”
Food banks do a good service, but they have been much in the news. People know they are free. They know about them and they will ask social workers to refer them. It would be wrong to pretend that the mass of publicity has not also been a driver in their increased use. The Opposition, notwithstanding the fact that under them the number of food banks increased tenfold, are trying to make a political issue out of this. They have done no service to those who need help and support and no service to those who run the food banks.
Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con)
T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.
The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)
Today I welcome the latest statistics showing the growth in employment over the past year. Against a rise of 54,000 foreign nationals at work, 360,000 more UK nationals are employed, a far better record than under the previous Government. With new measures to tighten up on immigration still further, such as the minimum earnings threshold announced last week, we are ensuring that those who want to work and who will work hard and play by the rules will see the benefits of Britain’s growth.
Steve Baker
The bishops have said that there is an “acute moral imperative” to act on welfare, and I agree, because that has been clear since at least 2006, when the Centre for Social Justice published its report, “Breakdown Britain”. Will the Secretary of State confirm that he is still on a moral mission to break those cycles of deprivation that lead to entrenched poverty so that people can live lives of hope and fulfilment?
Mr Duncan Smith
I am determined, as I have been since I arrived as Secretary of State, to improve the welfare system so that it supports people back into positive lifestyles, and that is what we are doing. More people have moved from economic inactivity, which is now at its lowest levels, back into work. There are now fewer workless households than there were on our arrival. When we came into government, one in 20—a fifth—of all households were without work; that figure has now reduced for the first time in 30 years.
Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab)
On 13 January, the Secretary of State told this House that between 3,000 and 5,000 people were wrongly paying the bedroom tax because of a loophole in the legislation. Since then, councils have been trawling through years of records to find out who has been overpaid. Will the Secretary of State update us on how many people were wrongly paying the bedroom tax?
Mr Duncan Smith
On the loophole that I talked about when I made that comment, the estimate we had, which was drawn from local authorities and still stands, in our view, was that some 5,000 people may be affected. That is based on the most up-to-date data that local authorities have given. I know that the hon. Lady and her team have made a freedom of information request, but the key thing is that the information we have is based on all the local authorities’ evidence to us, and I do not believe that her evidence is in any way accurate.
Rachel Reeves
Yes, we have put in a freedom of information request, because we did not think that the Secretary of State’s numbers were correct, and, as it turns out, they are not. The FOI request shows that with 194 out of 346 councils having responded so far, a staggering 21,500 people have been wrongly paying the bedroom tax, including 4,198 in Tory local authorities, so perhaps they have got their numbers wrong too. There are 275 in Tory Chester, 200 in Tory Peterborough, 234—
Mr Duncan Smith
Yet again we hear from the hon. Lady a complete failure to mention the fact that in all her Government’s time in power, they did nothing for those who lived in overcrowded accommodation. A quarter of a million people were left to us who suffer every day because they cannot get the right rooms. One million people were left on the waiting list, and the house building programme fell to its lowest point since the 1920s. There is only one answer to her: sorting this out is the right thing to do, and shame on a Government who did nothing for those in greatest difficulty.
Gareth Johnson (Dartford) (Con)
T2. Will the Minister join me in welcoming the fall in unemployment in my constituency over the past three years? We now have about 2,500 more people in work than in 2010, benefiting young and old, those in full-time and part-time positions, and men and women. Does not this highlight how important it is for the Government to stick to their economic plans and ensure that the well-being of this country improves?
Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con)
T4. The Minister will be aware of the 16% drop in unemployment in my constituency, along with the 34% drop in youth unemployment. Will he join me in welcoming the support of local businesses at our next annual Enfield jobs fair on 7 March, where employers are coming to support us in helping to find work for the unemployed?
Mr Duncan Smith
I will do everything I can to make sure I am there to support my hon. Friend, who is also my parliamentary neighbour. He is right to say that what we have seen in the recent employment figures has happened only because we stuck to the course of our economic plan and because the welfare reforms are delivering more people into work. All that would be damaged if that lot were in power.
Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab)
T7. Two of my constituents—both of whom are UK citizens—went to other European Union countries to find work, but when those jobs ended and they came home they found they were no longer eligible to receive benefits in the UK. Did the Government mean to penalise UK citizens who go abroad to get off the UK unemployment register, and is not that exactly the wrong signal to give? Will the Secretary of State change the regulations?
Mr Duncan Smith
As the hon. Gentleman should know, we are bringing forward tougher sanctions on those who come here just to take benefits, rather than to work. Of course, British citizens working abroad are more likely to have gone abroad with a strong work record in the UK, so when they come back that is taken into account. If the hon. Gentleman is worried about a particular case, perhaps he would like to write to me and I will take it up. The sanctions are fair because they stop people coming to countries such as Britain just because they have better welfare systems than theirs.
Mel Stride (Central Devon) (Con)
T5. I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State on all the work he has put into getting people back into employment, but I was visited this weekend by one of my constituents, Paul Vachon, who has been unemployed for more than 12 months and is highly skilled. His major concern is that, because he is close to the point of retirement, his employability is diminished. What are the Government doing to encourage and support those such as Paul who are seeking jobs at the point when they are about to retire?
Lucy Powell (Manchester Central) (Lab/Co-op)
Mr Speaker, you will remember that during exchanges at the last Work and Pensions questions, the Secretary of State said that Manchester had spent very little of its discretionary housing allocation. I wonder whether he wants to use this opportunity to clarify that allegation, given that only two days later, his Department granted Manchester city council an extra £200,000 of discretionary housing payment in recognition that its money was nearly spent.
Mr Duncan Smith
I stand by the figures I gave the hon. Lady, and I also stand by the fact that Manchester—[Interruption.] No, the figures I gave her were the halfway cut for the year, when she said that it had already overspent—[Interruption.] No, she cannot run away from it. She said that it had overspent, and the reality is that it had not overspent. Since then, it has asked for more money. We have a pot, and we have allowed it to have more money. That is the point of the discretionary housing payment. Welcome to the world of decision making.
Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD)
My constituent Jane has been receiving treatment for cancer since her diagnosis last October, but she was wrongly told that she was excluded from applying for help unless she resigned from her job altogether or became pregnant. Will the Minister meet me to discuss Jane’s suggestions to improve how patients receiving treatment for serious illnesses are referred by the NHS towards help, such as personal independence payment, in the interests of joined-up government?
Oral Answers to Questions
Iain Duncan Smith Excerpts(10 years, 8 months ago)
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Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con)
13. What assessment he has made of recent trends in the award of discretionary housing payments.
The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)
Figures published in December show that in the first half of the financial year 2013-14 the average committed spend by local authorities was 40% of their allocated budget. Against those who had said that they were overspending, in fact it turns out that the vast majority are not.
Bill Wiggin
Will the Secretary of State explain the particular circumstances for people who have been on housing benefit constantly since 1996 in relation to discretionary housing payments?
Mr Duncan Smith
Yes, this is a narrow but complicated area dating back to 1996 with the introduction of local reference rent rules. They were intended to offer transitional protection at that time for existing claimants, but they were not in any way time limited. There was another opportunity, in 2008, to change the regulations when the previous Government brought in local housing allowance. They were not adjusted then. This protection had been dormant for 17 years and not used. This is a complex area that we are now resolving, but I have to say that in three different Governments it has missed the attention of Ministers.
Chris Heaton-Harris
Some would have had us believe that the discretionary housing payment will run out very quickly and that people will be forced out of London to live elsewhere. Will the Secretary of State confirm that there was an underspend in discretionary housing payments of nearly £11 million, and that the claims of social cleansing from the Opposition were complete rubbish?
Mr Duncan Smith
Yes, I can. The reality, as my hon. Friend says, is that last year about £11 million in underspends was returned to the Department. It is interesting to note the claims made by some in this House. The hon. Member for Manchester Central (Lucy Powell) said that the money in her area was fast running out. It turns out that, at the six-month cut, only 28% of discretionary housing payment has actually been used. In Nottingham South, only 33% has been used. The hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey) said that too much had been spent in Birmingham, Erdington, but only 47% has been used. Discretionary housing payments are there to be used to help those in the most difficult circumstances. Councils should get on and use them.
Dr Thérèse Coffey
My right hon. Friend may not be aware that Suffolk Coastal has used 60% of its budget after nine months and Waveney has used half its budget. Does he agree that that shows that discretionary budgets are working and that it is wrong to try to make political capital out of potentially very difficult human circumstances?
Mr Duncan Smith
It does. The reality is that about 71% have spent less than half of their discretionary budgets by the half-way cut of the year, and politicians should always be careful about using individual cases and making political capital out of what are often human tragedies.
Lucy Powell (Manchester Central) (Lab/Co-op)
The Secretary of State should be careful about throwing around accusations of incompetence in local authorities. I was going to ask a different question, but I want to put it on record, and reassure the Secretary of State, that Manchester city council will be spending all its discretionary housing payments and has recently applied for more. Will he accept that application for more funding?
Mr Duncan Smith
The answer I gave previously was based on what the hon. Lady actually said previously, which was:
“The money is fast running out, if it has not already run out”.—[Official Report, 12 November 2013; Vol. 570, c. 838.]
At the six-month cut, Manchester city council had spent 28% of the discretionary payments. I suspect that, in reality, the hon. Lady was about to ask me about that, but realised that she could not because she had got it wrong.
John Healey (Wentworth and Dearne) (Lab)
What a lot of waffle in response to that planted question from the hon. Member for North Herefordshire (Bill Wiggin). The bulletin that the Secretary of State issued last week is a clear admission that he has been hitting thousands of people illegally with the bedroom tax since April. Is he aware of the latest survey from the Northern Housing Consortium, which says that nearly half of all front-line housing workers have dealt with someone who has threatened to commit suicide, largely because of the Government’s welfare changes? Will he apologise this afternoon to those people for the concern and chaos that he is causing?
Mr Duncan Smith
I said it all right, and I say it again: the Department is, and I am, absolutely sorry that anybody may have been caught up in this who should not have been. However, what we were left by the last Government was this: 1,000 pages of complex housing benefit regulations. Under universal credit, they will be reduced to 300 pages and we will simplify them. The reality is that this is a problem of the massive complexity of housing benefit that the last Government left us, with a housing benefit bill that has been rising and that doubled in 10 years on the right hon. Gentleman’s watch.
Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Discretionary housing payments simply will not plug the gap for disadvantaged tenants in Scotland. Given that last week the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities published clear evidence showing that the policy is costing more to implement than it saves, will the Secretary of State finally accept that it has been a disaster and abandon it?
Mr Duncan Smith
What I never hear about from the other side of the House, including from the hon. Lady, is what was left to us, which is 250,000 people living in overcrowded accommodation. Nobody on the Opposition Benches ever speaks for them or for the 1 million people they left on waiting lists who cannot get into homes while the taxpayer subsidises people to live in homes that they do not fully occupy. I simply put it back to the hon. Lady: I wonder when she or Opposition Front Benchers will ever speak for those they left in terrible conditions in overcrowded accommodation.
Heather Wheeler (South Derbyshire) (Con)
24. As always when I talk about my wonderful South Derbyshire district council, I declare an interest: its leader is my husband. Does my right hon. Friend agree that good councils are spending the appropriate amount of money on this issue and that councils need to look at the systems they have to look after the most vulnerable people in our society?
Mr Duncan Smith
That is exactly the point. I am sure that the leader of South Derbyshire district council is doing almost as good a job as my hon. Friend did previously, although I leave her to sort that out with him later. The key thing is that discretionary housing payments are there to help the most vulnerable. Councils should use them. We have allocated an extra pot for those that think they might run over, so there is extra money to bid for, and we are happy to entertain those bids.
Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)
4. What recent estimate he has made of potential savings to the public purse arising from implementation of the benefit cap.
The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)
Capping benefit at average earnings is forecast, by reducing the large benefit amounts previously paid to households, to save £85 million this year and around £140 million next year. What is more, some 19,000 potentially capped claimants have moved into work, where paying tax and national insurance contributions brings a further benefit to the Exchequer.
Andrew Bridgen
Residents in my North-West Leicestershire constituency are doubly astonished, first, that more than 30,000 households were claiming more than £26,000 in benefits prior to the introduction of the cap and, secondly, that the Labour party completely failed to support the introduction of a cap at all. Will my right hon. Friend assure us that this Government will persevere with its benefits cap policy and review the level at which the cap is set—currently at considerably more than the average post-tax income in my constituency?
Mr Duncan Smith
My hon. Friend is not alone, when 73% of the public support the cap as it stands, as did nine out of 10 Londoners in a recent poll. It appears that the only people who do not support the cap are Labour Members. We will keep the policy under review, but the one thing we should celebrate is that we are reforming welfare to ensure that those who need the money get it, and those who do not get back to work.
Mr Frank Field (Birkenhead) (Lab)
When previous Governments changed benefits, they commissioned research to find out about the consequences. Given that we are talking about a benefit cut, is the Secretary of State in a position to tell us who is doing the research?
Mr Duncan Smith
I am not sure from that whether the right hon. Gentleman supports the change or not. [Interruption.] He supports it—yet again a lone figure on his side, on which I congratulate him. We have carried out a whole load of revisions and changes, making sure that we watch implementation carefully. We carry out research constantly when it comes to the effects of all of our benefit changes. This one is an overall positive rather than a negative.
Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab)
5. What recent assessment he has made of Capita’s timescales for processing medical assessments for personal independence payments and providing them to his Department.
Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con)
18. What plans he has for the habitual residence test.
The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)
Migrants must now meet a much tougher habitual residence test than before, showing the efforts they have made to find work before coming to the UK and that their English language skills are not a barrier to getting a job. They must also have been resident in the UK for three months before being able to access out-of-work benefits. We have plans to make it even stronger, by introducing a minimum earnings threshold, with tougher questions on whether work is genuine, and job seekers from the European economic area will not receive housing benefit.
Nigel Mills
I am grateful to the Secretary of State for that detailed answer. I urge him to go a bit further and listen to the representations he has received to extend the qualifying period for the habitual residence test, and make people have to be here for a year before they can get those benefits.
Mr Duncan Smith
As has been made clear beyond this Chamber, we are looking at that matter at the moment, and we have been discussing it with a number of other European nations, the vast majority of which are clear and with us on the idea that freedom of movement should not result in an opportunity for people to take benefits from wherever they want and to pick and choose their benefit areas. We are looking at how we can come to an agreement on those time scales and limits.
Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab)
19. What his most recent estimate is of the number of people who will be claiming universal credit by April 2014.
The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)
Based on caseload projections, we expect more than 6,000 claimants from the pathfinders to be on universal credit in January.
Beyond the pathfinder scheme and in the live running of universal credit, we are also rolling out other components, such as the claimant commitment. Jobcentre Plus advisers have agreed around 120,000 JSA claimant commitments, rising by some 30,000 each week. That continues our progressive approach to date, enabling a safe and successful delivery.
Steve Rotheram
The Secretary of State has made a pig’s ear of the roll-out of universal credit. Does he agree with his colleague, the Minister for the Cabinet Office, who claimed that the mess was all his fault?
Mr Duncan Smith
Actually my right hon. Friend did not make that claim. If the hon. Gentleman had gone on with the quote, we would hear that he said:
“I’m a very strong supporter of what he is doing…and I’m absolutely confident that”
he is capable of implementing it.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
20. How many adults and young people have been helped to find employment by Kettering Jobcentre Plus in each of the last three years.
Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)
T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.
The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)
I welcome industry figures that suggest that business hiring intentions are at their highest for two and a half years and that even more UK businesses are reporting that they intend to recruit in 2014. Those positive signs are backed up by the latest labour market statistics that show that more people are in private sector employment than ever before—up by more than 1.6 million since the general election.
Neil Carmichael
With the popularity of the Post Office in mind, does the Minister agree that the value of the Post Office card account is immense, benefiting some 2.9 million people? Will he think about extending it?
Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab)
We already know that 600,000 people are affected by the bedroom tax, two thirds of them are disabled and 60,000 are carers. Will the Secretary of State now tell the House exactly how many long-term residents have been wrongly paying the bedroom tax since April because the Government failed to spot a loophole in the legislation?
Mr Duncan Smith
We have already made it clear that the number is likely to be between 3,000 and 5,000, but we will be clearer about that when the local authorities, which are responsible for collecting the data, come forward with the final facts.
Rachel Reeves
The fact is that the Secretary of State has not got a clue. It could be 5,000 or it could be as many as 40,000 people, as reported by the experts. What a total shambles! Will the Secretary of State now guarantee that everybody who has been wrongly paying the bedroom tax will be reimbursed, and instead of closing the loophole, will the Government now do the right thing and scrap the bedroom tax?
Mr Duncan Smith
Yet again, what we have from the hon. Lady is a moan about a policy that helps people in difficult circumstances. I said earlier that not once has she come to the Dispatch Box and said that she was concerned about those her party left behind living in overcrowded accommodation. Not once has she mentioned the 1 million on the waiting list or apologised for the fact that building levels for social housing fell to their lowest point since the ’20s. Of course we will look after those affected by the policy, but she must make it clear that she supports one of these policies; otherwise, there will be a total cost to the Exchequer. The shambles is on the Opposition’s part.
Dr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con)
T7. Will the Minister confirm that under the new system, 80% of individuals will be entitled to a full single-tier pension in their own right by 2030?
Mr David Crausby (Bolton North East) (Lab)
T3. In response to an inquiry, the Department for Work and Pensions has confirmed to me that employers advertising vacancies on the Government’s jobmatch service must provide a full, clear and accurate job description. Does the Secretary of State agree that they should also make it clear when they are offering zero-hours contracts, rather than simply listing them as part time?
Mr Duncan Smith
Of course, the key point is that all contracts must be clear from the beginning and every employee must know what contract they are on. A very small percentage of the population are on zero hours and great care is needed, as some jobs and some individuals prefer such contracts—as the hon. Gentleman’s Government found out when they were in power.
Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con)
T8. Will the Minister update the House on the progress in providing support for mesothelioma sufferers?
Bill Wiggin (North Herefordshire) (Con)
T9. Will the Secretary of State say how many fewer children there are in workless families since 2010?
Mr Duncan Smith
The total figure for the fall in the number of workless households has been in the order of 17%. The position we inherited was that it had not fallen for 30 years and approximately 2.5 million children were living in such households. That number has fallen by several hundred thousand—a clear change and a clear improvement for the public and those going back to work.
Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)
T5. Can the Secretary of State guarantee that there will be no further delays to his roll-out of universal credit?
Mr Duncan Smith
Universal credit is set to roll out according to the timetable I laid out the other day. We have been round this—[Interruption.] With respect, Mr Speaker, I know that Christmas is over but I think one of the pantomimes left its dame behind on the Opposition Front Bench. Universal credit will roll out in the time scales available and will be a major benefit to all those who come under it, including the constituents of the hon. Member for Blaenau Gwent (Nick Smith).
Sir Andrew Stunell (Hazel Grove) (LD)
Constituents of mine who face mandatory reconsideration are stuck with the possibility of a gap in their benefits until their tribunal hearing. I know that the Secretary of State is very keen to deal with that problem. Will he tell the House what further steps can be taken to protect my constituents?
Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)
Has the Secretary of State managed to watch programmes such as “Benefits Street” and “On Benefits & Proud”? If so, has he, like me, been struck by the number of people on them who manage to combine complaining about welfare reform with being able to afford to buy copious amounts of cigarettes, have lots of tattoos, and watch Sky TV on the obligatory widescreen television? Does he understand the concerns and irritation of many people who go to work every day and pay their taxes but cannot afford those kinds of luxuries?
Mr Duncan Smith
My hon. Friend is right: many people are shocked by what they see. That is why the public back our welfare reform package, which will get more people back to work and end these abuses. All these abuses date back to the last Government, who had massive spending and trapped people in benefit dependency.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
May I ask the Secretary of State to look carefully at his many policies that are delivered through intermediaries such as G4S, Capita and Atos? Are not many of those private sector providers deeply ineffective and inefficient? They cause many of my constituents great grief.
Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con)
In the Minister’s reply to my written question of 5 December, we learned that there was a prosecution in fewer than one in four of 45,000 cases of benefit fraud. Only 400 cases resulted in a prison sentence; the vast majority were handled through informal recovery processes. What proportion of the informal repayment arrangements are up to date, and does the Minister believe that increasing the incidence of prosecution would be helpful in reducing the incidence of benefit fraud?
Mr Duncan Smith
We have made great progress in pursuing more people than have ever been pursued before. The reality is that the amount got back from those who have been defrauding the state is better than it has been, but in the answer to which my hon. Friend refers, we made it clear that we have much more to do. It is the nature of many benefits that they are open to abuse; changes such as universal credit will simplify the process and give far less opportunity to those who would defraud the system. That is the right way to deal with the issue.
Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)
In Northern Ireland, 300,000 pensioners enjoy the winter fuel allowance. Will the Secretary of State confirm whether, if he is returned to office after the next election, that benefit will remain in place?
Mr Duncan Smith
It is this Government who have stood by that. The Prime Minister gave a pledge before the last election, and we intended to, and will, see that all the way to the election. As always, all further commitments will be made and published in the manifesto.
Simon Kirby (Brighton, Kemptown) (Con)
Can the Secretary of State confirm that universal credit will improve the lives of those in our poorest communities, including those of many people in Brighton, Kemptown?
Mr Duncan Smith
I can indeed. Universal credit replaces the benefits that are most open to fraud, in many cases. Also, housing benefit doubled in value under the last Government; universal credit will deal with those problems, get things back into order, and provide an incentive to go back to work; that is the key thing. Getting people back to work, which the Opposition are not interested in, is the key element of welfare reform.
Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)
Given this latest bedroom tax shambles, can the Secretary of State clarify whether he will write off, or seek repayment for, discretionary housing payments that have been made to those people who will now receive back payment of housing benefit?
Mr Duncan Smith
I made it clear in my previous answer that I will be coming forward with full details about that, including the number of people affected.
Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)
I urge the Secretary of State to promote fairness for people on housing waiting lists, fairness for people in overcrowded accommodation, where children have to do their homework in the hallways, and fairness for hard-working people and their families when it comes to welfare tourism.
Mr Duncan Smith
That is exactly right. The reality that my hon. Friend has spotted is that the Opposition have voted against every single one of our welfare reforms. Not only would the welfare bill have been £45 billion higher under them, but more people would be out of work and they would have failed the British people.
Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab)
On the Work programme, can the Minister explain why Dundee is once again the least supported city in Scotland, with only 9.79% of people being helped back into work by the programme? Will she apologise to the people of Dundee and explain why 90% are still not being helped?
Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab)
A few moments ago the Secretary of State quoted the Minister for the Cabinet Office on universal credit, but he forgot to mention the part where the Minister called its implementation “lamentable” and said that a lot of money has been wasted. We also learned last week that the Cabinet Office withdrew the Government Digital Service from universal credit, a decision described as “disappointing” by the lead official. Why did the official describe it in such terms?
Mr Duncan Smith
Yet again the Opposition are farming in and around old e-mails. The truth is that universal credit and the Cabinet Office are working together, with the Cabinet Office supporting us on the digital ask. The Minister for the Cabinet Office made it absolutely clear that that is where we are going. I know that in reality the Opposition do not support universal credit, but it would be better if they came clean: it will be delivered and they will be thankful in the end.
Universal Credit
Iain Duncan Smith Excerpts(10 years, 9 months ago)
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Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab)
(Urgent Question): To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions if he will make a statement on universal credit.
The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)
This is a major and challenging reform which will transform the welfare state in Britain for the better, ultimately accounting for some £70 billion of benefit spending each year, with 3 million people better off.
Rightly for a programme of this scale, the Government’s priority has been, and continues to be, its safe and secure delivery. This has been demonstrated throughout our approach to date, which started with the successful launch of the pathfinder in April 2013 and has continued with the controlled expansion of universal credit, starting as planned in October 2013 and running through to spring 2014. What is more, we are already pushing ahead with the cultural and business change required as part of universal credit. We are retraining 25,000 Jobcentre Plus advisers while implementing digital jobcentres and rolling out the new claimant commitment, which is now on track to be in place in half of all jobcentres by the end of the year, and across the country by the spring.
Yesterday I announced and discussed at length with the Work and Pensions Committee our plans for the next stage of implementing universal credit, following my Department’s work over recent months with the Government Digital Service to assess delivery options. That work has explored the use of the latest digital technologies and assessed the utility of the work we have done to date—[Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. The Secretary of State is well able to make himself heard, and he is doing so, but it is frankly discourteous, when he is giving a statement to the House, for it to be peppered with constant heckling. Members will have the chance to question the right hon. Gentleman, but please do him the courtesy of hearing what he has to say.
Mr Duncan Smith
The conclusions of this work were set out yesterday. First, as part of the wider transformation in developing digital services, the Department will further develop the work started by the GDS to test and implement an enhanced digital service. This will be capable of delivering the full scope of universal credit and make provision for all claimant types.
Meanwhile, we will expand our current service and develop functionality so that from next summer we progressively start to take claims for universal credit from couples and, in the autumn, from families. Once safely tested in the 10 live universal credit areas, we will expand the roll-out to cover the north-west of England. This will enable us to learn from the live running of universal credit at scale and for more claimant types, including the more vulnerable and the more complex, while extending to more people the positive benefits of universal credit.
It is important to note that the information that we are getting back from the pathfinder tells that 90%—I stress, 90%—of people are claiming universal credit online and that 78% are confident about their ability to budget with monthly payments. It also tells us— [Interruption.] I know that Labour Members do not want to hear about this, because they have been wrong on welfare reform from day one. The majority of people who are on the programme tell us that it pays to work, with 65% to 70% reporting that universal credit offers better work incentives than jobseeker’s allowance and is less complex—upheld by the 65% who agreed that it was easier to understand their obligations as a result.
As we progress with the future delivery of this flagship programme, we will continue the same careful approach—test, learn, implement—as it is rolled out through the regions. On this basis—[Interruption.] Actually, I am going to pick this point up. The shadow Chancellor is sitting on the Opposition Front Bench. I will tell you, Mr Speaker, what we will not do: we will not take any lessons from the party that rolled out tax credits early. It rushed the delivery of tax credits, which cost £5 billion immediately and 400,000 people suffered directly as a result.
Once we have closed down the new claims, we will test, learn and implement—unlike Labour when it rolled out its information technology programmes. The new claims to the legacy benefits that universal credit replaced have been closed down, with the vast majority of the remaining legacy case load moving to universal credit during 2016 and into 2017. Final decisions on these elements of the programme will be informed by the development of the enhanced digital solution.
Rachel Reeves
On 5 September, the Secretary of State told the House:
“We will deliver this in time and in budget”.—[Official Report, 5 September 2013; Vol. 567, c. 472.]
On 14 October, he said:
“Universal credit will roll out very well and it will be on time and within budget.”—[Official Report, 14 October 2013; Vol. 568, c. 429.]
And just last month, on 18 November, he said that
“universal credit will roll out and deliver exactly as we said it would.”—[Official Report, 18 November 2013; Vol. 570, c. 947.]
The Secretary of State must answer these questions. How on earth can this be on time when in November 2011 he said that
“all new applications for existing benefits and credits will be entirely phased out by April 2014”,
but we now learn that this milestone will be reached only in 2016? Will the Secretary of State confirm that this is a delay of two years? Will he also confirm that, even by 2017, 700,000 people will not be on universal credit?
How can the Secretary of State say that universal credit will be on budget when, even by his own admission, £40.1 million is being written off on IT costs? What budget heading was that under? The Secretary of State also revealed yesterday that another £90 million will be written off by 2018. Does this mean an additional IT system is having to be built?
The reset exercise began in February. On 18 November, the Secretary of State still claimed that there would be no delay to universal credit. At what point did he learn that there would be a delay of two years?
The underlying problem is surely that the Secretary of State has not resolved key policy decisions before spending hundreds of millions of pounds of taxpayers’ money on an IT system.
One of the issues that has a fundamental impact on whether people are better off in work is free school meals; so which recipients of universal credit will get free school meals—some, none or all?
The Secretary of State is in denial. Doubtless, he will deny that he is in denial in a moment’s time. But we all know that until he fesses up, no one will have any confidence in his management of this programme. It is no surprise that a source close to the Chancellor says:
“There are some ministers who improve in office and others, like IDS, who show that they are just not up to it”.
Mr Duncan Smith
Let me deal with a couple of the points raised by the hon. Lady. I said all along, and I repeat, that this programme essentially is going to be on time. By 2017, some 6.5 million people will be on the programme, receiving the benefits.
Let me deal with the hon. Lady’s comments about what is written down and what is written off. For somebody who was supposed to have been working for the Bank at one point, she does not seem to know the difference between equipment of no use that is being written off and equipment—this is the case in any company over a period of time—that is written down each year. That is exactly right. If she drives a motor car, I wonder whether she has noticed that, over a period of years, its value actually depreciates. Perhaps she has not; perhaps she is still trying to sell the car for the same value she bought it for.
The reality is very simple. Let us take the legacy systems right now. The legacy computer systems that are working were written down years ago, but they are still delivering value to the Government by delivering benefits. Maybe the hon. Lady needs a teach-in about the difference between written-off equipment and written-down equipment.
I want to deal with one other point that is quite clear and is the reality. We have been clear—[Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. Mr Irranca-Davies, you have a beautiful voice, with very mellifluous tones. One disadvantage for you is that when it is loud, I can very easily hear it—some miles off, I think. We need to hear a bit less of it for the time being.
Mr Duncan Smith
We do not take any lessons from the Opposition about computer failure: the tax credit system crashed, the health system crashed and they lost billions and billions of pounds while the shadow Chancellor was at the right hand of the then Chancellor, the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown).
I might also say that although the Opposition have asked an urgent question on universal credit today, the truth is that they are themselves in denial about the legacy of welfare failure they left us. Welfare spending increased by 60% in real terms under the previous Government—£3,000 a year for every household in Britain. More than £170 billion was spent on tax credits alone. There were 5 million on out-of-work benefits, and nearly a quarter of working-age people were economically inactive.
This Government have already saved £11 billion on the welfare bill, £48 billion over this Parliament. The Office for Budget Responsibility has confirmed that welfare bills will fall in real terms to below the level at which we received them. Employment is up by more than 1 million. More households are now in work than ever before, with the lowest proportion of children living in workless households since records began. Child poverty is at its lowest level since the 1990s, and pensioner poverty is at its lowest for almost 30 years.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
Is not a phased roll-out of the new universal credit system far better than incurring the £2.8 billion of waste through fraud, error and overpayment incurred by the previous Government in their tax credit system?
Mr Duncan Smith
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The Opposition want to talk about universal credit, but the reality is that, unlike tax credits, it will roll out without damaging a single person, and it will also deliver massive benefits, under control by our test, learn and implement approach. The waste that we inherited was the waste of people who did not listen, rushed programmes and implemented them badly.
Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab)
The Secretary of State promised that universal credit would be digital by default—it isn’t; he promised that all new claims would be on universal credit by May 2014—they won’t; and he then promised that 10 areas would be assessing the simplest claims by the end of October—they aren’t; so why should anyone believe him when he says that the delivery of universal credit is now on track?
Mr Duncan Smith
The proof of this will be as we roll out the programme. I say to the Chair of the Select Committee that we intervened early when there were problems. We did not let this programme roll out so that anybody was damaged, unlike the Government whom she served, who rushed IT programmes into service, damaged vast numbers of people and wasted a huge amount of money. I wonder whether the Chair of the Work and Pensions Committee ever asked the shadow Chancellor or the previous Prime Minister why they did that.
Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD)
Will the Secretary of State confirm that he has seen the Public Accounts Committee report of 7 November and will take notice of its recommendations, which should be helpful in executing this vital project?
Mr Duncan Smith
I can tell my hon. Friend that all the recommendations have already been implemented. They were drawn from our own reports internally—both the red team report that I instigated and the PricewaterhouseCoopers report—and all these changes have been made. This roll-out programme bears complete authority on the basis of that.
Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab)
Yesterday, the Secretary of State claimed that 700,000 people would now not be expected to join universal credit by 2017 because he was having a rethink and wanted to introduce things more slowly for vulnerable claimants. However, on 18 November—three weeks ago—he said to my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen South (Dame Anne Begg):
“As I said to the hon. Lady when I appeared in front of her Committee in July, we have been very clear that we would roll out universal credit on the plan and programme already set out.”—[Official Report, 18 November 2013; Vol. 570, c. 946.]
Which is it?
Mr Duncan Smith
The funny thing about the Opposition is that they do not know what they want. They say that they support universal credit—[Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. I know that there are strong views on this matter, but the House must calm down. Courtesy is necessary on both sides. Let us hear the Secretary of State.
Mr Duncan Smith
Do the Opposition want us to rush out universal credit, as they did with tax credits, or do they want us to take our time to implement it correctly? The reason we are not moving the support group and the work-related activity group on from employment and support allowance is that they are very vulnerable. We want to take our time so that those who are on those benefits are brought on to universal credit carefully. It seems that the hon. Lady’s party wants to rush those people on as fast as possible, rather like what it did with tax credits.
Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)
Is it not the case that under the last Government, 1.4 million people spent—[Interruption.]
Robert Halfon
Is it not the case that under the last Government, 1.4 million people spent a decade out of work on benefits and 2.6 million people spent five years out of work on benefits? Is it not also the case that universal credit will get people out of dependency and back into work, that it will eliminate the poverty trap, and that 90% of people on benefits will be on universal credit by the end of 2016?
Mr Duncan Smith
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Universal credit is worth doing properly because of the benefits it brings to so many people. Just in case he does not remember, although the Opposition say that they support it, they voted against it. We will take no lessons from them because of the chaos, mess and cost that they left for us in the welfare system. We are having to pick up the details of that and put them right. We are doing that every day.
Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab)
The Secretary of State says that he has read and implemented the report of the Public Accounts Committee, which confirmed that the Department
“only reported good news and denied the problems”.
Unfortunately, we have seen no change today. A specific recommendation of the report was that the Government should urgently carry out an impairment review into the value of the IT assets that had been written down as a result of ineffectualness. As he has confirmed today that the recommendations have all been implemented, will he tell us what that value was according to his own impairment review?
Mr Duncan Smith
The Department has carried out probably the most exhaustive impairment review. It is now being signed off by the National Audit Office. I gave the figures to the Work and Pensions Committee yesterday. The total write-off figure was £40.1 million. We should bear it in mind that Opposition Front Benchers have been running around saying that hundreds and hundreds of millions of pounds will be written off. They will not be. That will be in the published accounts today.
Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con)
May I remind the Secretary of State that when he came to office, it was possible for claimants, on returning to work, to lose 96p of every £1 that they earned? The prize for his universal credit system is to make work pay. It is not only Government Members who will support him for sticking with it, but those who are seeking to return to work, because it will help to make work pay.
Mr Duncan Smith
In more than 10 years in government, the last lot never did a thing to improve the quality of life for those who were seeking work. So far, we have more people in work and we have systems of change that will improve the quality of life of those who are disabled and those who are on sickness benefit. Universal credit will complete that process. It is no surprise to me that the Opposition have nothing to say on welfare reform, but want to nit-pick away about this programme.
Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
The implementation of universal credit has been a complete fiasco right from the start. Given the delays that there have already been and the clear indication from the Scottish Government that they would halt the roll-out in Scotland in the event of a yes vote in next year’s referendum, will the Secretary of State suspend the roll-out of universal credit to allow the people of Scotland to deliver their verdict?
Mr Duncan Smith
I have heard what the Scottish National party has said. All I would say is that it is in complete denial about the cost of welfare and pensions. The reality is that it will not be able to afford the pensions bill with Scotland’s demographic make-up, and welfare alone will cost it a large amount of money. I do not know where it thinks it will get the money from if Scotland breaks free from the United Kingdom.
Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)
The people of Somerset think that it is the mark of a statesman to take a deliberative and intelligent approach to these problems, and not to rush the process in a typical socialist fashion. I wonder whether my right hon. Friend agrees with me that his critics have forgotten to read their Bible and do not remember the line on motes and beams. Although there may be the tiniest specks in his proposals, there was a veritable forest in their IT suggestions.
Mr Duncan Smith
I always do my level best to agree with my hon. Friend. He talks common sense whenever he rises to his feet and today is no different.
Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab)
How confident is the Secretary of State that the system will be able to deal with people who live in such unusual circumstances as being in a couple or having children?
Mr Duncan Smith
The system will roll out for all the complicated groups right the way through until we have 6.5 million on it. There were some reports in today’s papers that were wrong. The pathfinder rolled out to singles to begin with. Next it goes on to couples, then to couples with children, then we bring in the more complicated groups and then we bring in the tax credit group. I simply say to the hon. Lady that she needs to understand the difference between an approach that rolls something out at every stage and learns from it, and the approach that Labour took on tax credits, which was to rush them in and see them fail.
Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)
Does the Secretary of State agree that any short-term costs and delays in simplifying the welfare system are completely and utterly outweighed by the long-term benefits for taxpayers and claimants?
Glenda Jackson (Hampstead and Kilburn) (Lab)
The Work and Pensions Committee, right from the beginning of the introduction of universal credit, has warned the Secretary of State that this is one of the most complex systems to be introduced. Consistently, the Secretary of State has reassured the Select Committee and this House that everything is fine. We now know that he has failed to meet every single one of the targets that he assured us he would meet. The issue is not the people on these Benches or on the Benches opposite; the issue is our constituents who will be dependent on universal credit. The Secretary of State should stand at the Dispatch Box, apologise for the anxiety in which he has placed our constituents and try to give a straight answer to a very simple question, but that answer must be verifiable. When will universal credit be introduced for all relevant claimants?
Mr Duncan Smith
To deal with the first part of what the hon. Lady said, the reason we are proceeding like this—testing, learning and then implementing—is to ensure that nobody so far has been damaged at all by the changes brought in under universal credit. I repeat again that I learned my lesson from the last Government, who rolled out tax credits in a rush, all at once. The system crashed, £5 billion was lost and 400,000 people were damaged. The then Prime Minister, Mr Blair, had to go out and apologise publicly for the mess they had got in. I am saying today that we will roll this out and 6.5 million people will be on the system by 2017.
Mr David Ruffley (Bury St Edmunds) (Con)
The Secretary of State has the wholehearted support of those on the Government Benches because his reforms are the most beneficial reforms to the welfare system since its inception. The Labour party in government, across the whole of their Departments in 13 years, blew £25 billion on failed IT systems. Does not history therefore suggest that the best way to proceed with IT projects of the important kind that my right hon. Friend is engaged with is to do it patiently and gradually, and not to rush our fences?
Mr Duncan Smith
My hon. Friend is right. The way we have chosen to do this is to ensure that we test, learn and implement as we go along. This is exactly how we are rolling out the other programmes of change on disability living allowance and the personal independence payment, on the Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission, and on the cap, all of which are now bringing benefits to many people throughout the country. The previous Government wasted £13 billion on the NHS computer system and £500 million on the Child Support Agency mess, including £120 million on the rescue scheme which was later scrapped. The benefits processing replacement programme, which some of those on the Opposition Benches were responsible for, was axed after £140 million of waste.
Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab)
Does the Secretary of State think he has the confidence of Treasury Ministers, given that as my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves), the shadow Secretary of State, told him, a Minister close to the Chancellor told The Times this morning:
“There are some ministers who improve in office”,
and there are those, like the Secretary of State,
“who show they are just not up to it”?
[Interruption.] No answer was given. How can a project of this scale be taken forward without the Secretary of State having the confidence of the Treasury?
David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)
Such programmes are highly complex, involving many hundreds, if not thousands, of man-years of work—probably more complex than delivering the Olympics. Given that the Opposition apparently support the programme’s objectives, does the Secretary of State understand why they have spent the past three quarters of an hour undermining the project team?
Mr Duncan Smith
My hon. Friend again raises the point that the Opposition talk a lot about supporting universal credit but they voted against it. They have nothing to say about welfare reform. That is the problem. Up till now, they have failed on welfare reform. They are known as the welfare party because they have opposed everything that we have brought in. We will save more than £40 billion over this Parliament. They have opposed everything, which would cost them an extra £40 billion if they were to get into power.
Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)
Given the shambles that exists here in Britain in relation to the implementation of universal credit, why are the Government so intent on imposing this unfair welfare system in Northern Ireland, where levels of disadvantage are higher, the cost of living is higher, and jobs, including new jobs, are particularly scarce?
Mr Duncan Smith
Welfare reform would benefit Northern Ireland as much as it is benefiting the UK. I suggest that the hon. Lady and her colleagues get on and implement it.
Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con)
Will my right hon. Friend confirm to the House that universal credit will save £100 million in 2014-15 and £200 million in 2015-16? Will he also confirm that universal credit is currently handling complicated cases?
Mr Duncan Smith
My hon. Friend will see from the published accounts that the National Audit Office agrees that the proposed roll-out, which will go ahead, will in every single year save money, ultimately to the Exchequer. The point that is being made is that the net value of the asset of £152 million that we have will deliver huge benefits to the public and huge savings to the Government.
Andy McDonald (Middlesbrough) (Lab)
Did the Secretary of State or any of his Ministers try to apply pressure to any member of the Public Accounts Committee in the formulation of its report on the implementation of universal credit?
Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con)
Fraud, error and overpayment led to £2.8 billion being wasted during the introduction of tax credits by the previous Government. Has my right hon. Friend made an assessment of how much has been lost during the phased introduction of universal credit to fraud, error and overpayment?
Mr Duncan Smith
There is no money lost to fraud, error and overpayment under the universal credit system. As we roll it out, the system itself will save a huge amount in fraud and error on the current system, which is a mess. The level of overpayments and clawbacks of tax credits every single year is a scandal; the scandal is that the policy and the programme left to us by the Opposition, which has been failing every year, is costing huge sums of money.
Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)
The Secretary of State has been very keen to talk about what the previous Government did, but he is in charge now and he was in charge of one of the worst possible procurement processes in government. He has not yet told the House what will happen to the employment support group. It is batted off into the long grass. They are a very vulnerable group of people. Will they have to live through a similar shambles when he comes up with a solution for them?
Mr Duncan Smith
Quite the contrary; I have made it very clear that by 2016 universal credit will be the benefit that people go on when they apply for employment and support allowance. The people who were on it—we know them as the stock—are the most vulnerable. [Interruption.] Well, that is the term used—those are people who are on the benefit at present. [Interruption.] How pathetic is that? The Opposition used the term themselves when they were in government, and now they try to pretend that they have discovered a new way of referring to such people. Those who are on employment and support allowance will be migrated to universal credit over a period so that we can bring them in safely, securely and to their benefit. Would the hon. Lady want us to rush them in, or does she think we ought to take care over how we do it?
Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con)
The mission of universal credit has always been to make work pay. I have never entirely understood what it is about that principle that the Opposition find so distasteful. Many of my constituents constantly remind me of the problem that they have under the current system. Surely all Members should be backing the roll-out of universal credit. Today we have heard that there are some problems, that they are being tackled and that the size of the gain is enormous. Will my right hon. Friend confirm for everyone, but particularly for Opposition Members, who seem so opposed to universal credit, what the total economic gain to the people of this country will be over the next 10 years?
Mr Duncan Smith
The gains will be enormous. The roll-out has already begun. The question is not whether it will begin; it has already begun. We have already rolled out universal credit to pilot centres in the north-west. We are rolling out to a further six centres. That will be complete early in the new year, then we will bring in couples, couples with children, and eventually the tax credits. We will roll out completely in the north-west, then every region after that. It will be complete by 2016. This will bring huge benefits to all those who struggle under the existing system to make work pay. If they lose 6p in every pound, it is hardly worth while. That is the system that the Opposition left.
Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)
If these plans for universal credit cannot be underpinned by a credible, working IT system by this time next year, will it be the Secretary of State’s fault or will he blame someone else?
Mr Duncan Smith
I take full responsibility for everything in the Department and there will progressively be an IT system that rolls out this programme. It will deliver, and I rather hope that by the time of the next election the Opposition come back and say sorry.
Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)
Did my right hon. Friend listen to the “Today” programme yesterday, when the hon. Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves) repeatedly made it clear that the Opposition support the introduction of universal credit? Does he not consider it strange that not once did she make that clear in the House today? Does he not think it strange to support universal credit on the airwaves but seek to rubbish it here? If the Opposition really do support the introduction of universal credit, surely they want to see it introduced properly.
Mr Duncan Smith
My hon. Friend is right. The problem is that the hon. Lady went touring around all the studios, also saying that we would be writing off hundreds of millions of pounds. She is wrong on that. I see she has dropped that today, but the point is that the Opposition have nothing to say about this, so they want to pick away at a plan which, apparently, they support. [Interruption.] When you support something, you support it. They actually oppose it. [Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. Mr Robertson, your voice is substantially louder than that of your hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies). I do not wish to be unkind, but it is not always quite as mellifluous.
Mrs Anne McGuire (Stirling) (Lab)
On 11 September 2012, the Secretary of State said:
“For what it is worth, I take absolute, direct and close interest in every single part of the IT development.”—[Official Report, 11 September 2012; Vol. 550, c. 154.]
He said he held meetings and briefings, and worked on it at weekends from his box. He also said,
“we are testing stuff”—
I think that is a technical term—
“pretty much the whole time.”—[Official Report, 11 September 2012; Vol. 550, c. 157.]
Given that 15 months ago he was taking such a personal interest in that, why is he still in his job and facing this shambles today?
Mr Duncan Smith
Because back in 2011-12, as a result of that work, I decided there were problems in the way the system was being developed, so I intervened and brought in a group of people from outside to look at it. They agreed with me and we have since reset the programme. The truth is that Labour never did any of that when in government, and the right hon. Lady needs to ask herself, why not?
Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)
I urge my right hon. Friend to reject the representations of Labour Members, who the whole House can see do not really believe in making work pay, and who long for universal credit to fail. Has he noticed that the write-offs are about one tenth of a per cent. of the £26 billion of taxpayers’ money wasted by the Opposition?
Mr Duncan Smith
My hon. Friend is right. Again and again what is going on is a kind of hypocrisy, with Labour Members somehow claiming that they did things properly. They never did; they lost billions and billions on programmes, whether in the Ministry of Defence or in my Department. We have been picking up the pieces and putting it right.
Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)
After today, does the Secretary of State honestly believe that he has any credibility left?
Mr Duncan Smith
I have more credibility than the Labour party, which wasted money galore. My answer is that I will deliver this and we are already delivering welfare reforms—[Interruption.] The right hon. Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms) needs to remember that he was in a Government who watched welfare spending rise by 60% under their watch.
Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con)
Although writing off anything is disappointing, will the Secretary of State confirm whether he has analysed what a comparable write-off would be for schemes in the public and private sector elsewhere?
Mr Duncan Smith
In the private sector, programmes allow up to 30% or 40% for write-downs and reworks, which is well within the amount we have written down. I believe that this programme will roll out more efficiently than almost any other programme in the private sector.
Teresa Pearce (Erith and Thamesmead) (Lab)
In yesterday’s Work and Pensions Committee, the DWP finance director general stated that £303 million has so far been spent on developing IT. We have heard that £40 million has been written off as it could not be capitalised because it had no use, and that £97 million was capitalised and written down. That leaves a further £107 million of IT expenditure that was not capitalised as it has no useful software. Will the Secretary of State confirm that of the £303 million spent, only £97 million has resulted in useable software?
Mr Duncan Smith
The hon. Lady, of course, misrepresents the position. [Interruption.] The money that we were talking about yesterday, the write-offs, is for technology that will not be used, and the write-down is equipment we will be using over the next 12 months. The other value she mentioned is for equipment that will be written down over a period of years, once we start to use it. We cannot write it down until it is actually in use.
Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con)
The situation is that welfare required reform and, as my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Richard Graham) made clear, work was not paying. I welcome the phased roll-out of universal credit, but I am still at a loss as to the Labour position. Can the Secretary of State advise my constituents in Northumberland why he chose to test, learn and then roll out a project of such a large scale that it will be truly transformative?
Mr Duncan Smith
That is exactly right. The point is that we intervened early when we thought there was a problem, and we did not deliberately drive it through to roll-out. Quite frankly, we will have got this right because, unlike Labour, we are testing the system and learning first, and then finally implementing it. My hon. Friend is right: we have no idea what Labour Members really want. They just want to criticise but they have no other proposals.
Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)
Will the Secretary of State tell the House how many children will qualify for free school meals in households in receipt of universal credit?
Mr Duncan Smith
Everybody now in receipt of free school meals will be eligible for them as we roll out universal credit, and the changes that are necessary in universal credit will be made apparent as we come to do that. I guarantee that nobody will lose out with free school meals.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
In response to the hon. Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie), the Secretary of State referred to Northern Ireland, which is very much a part of the United Kingdom. The Northern Ireland Assembly is currently discussing welfare reform legislation, and the Executive have been told there will be financial implications on the block grant for every month that changes are delayed, starting from January 2014. IT affects all of the United Kingdom. What implications does the delay in putting IT in place have for welfare reform in Northern Ireland?
Mr Duncan Smith
The hon. Gentleman refers to the fact that we need to get welfare reform rolled out in Northern Ireland, which I fundamentally believe is the right thing to do. His point, I think, concerns what the Chief Secretary has said, because if we do not roll out welfare reform in Northern Ireland, it has a net cost to the Exchequer. That is why a balance must be found—we need to roll out welfare reform to save money, otherwise that will affect spending in Northern Ireland.