Social Justice: Transforming Lives--Progress Report

Iain Duncan Smith Excerpts

Tuesday 18th November 2014 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

In 2012, we published “Social Justice: transforming lives”, a landmark document setting out a new vision for supporting the most disadvantaged families and individuals across the UK. The strategy outlined how family breakdown, low educational attainment, worklessness, problem debt, and addiction combine to cause the entrenched poverty affecting many of our communities, highlighting the complexity of the issues that many people face.

To meet this challenge, the strategy signalled that a new approach was needed— putting early intervention first, while tackling the root causes of poverty to give those experiencing disadvantage a meaningful second chance.

Today, I wish to inform the House that later today I am laying the Command Paper “Social Justice: transforming lives—progress report”, which shows what this Government have achieved in turning that vision into a reality, but also renews our commitment to this important agenda.

Over the last 12 months, we have continued the cultural change needed in order to achieve our aims, spanning not only families and individuals, but also public services and the way the Government fund them.

As today’s progress report sets out, delivering this aim has required a complete shift in how the Government tackle social problems: an unrelenting focus on preventing problems arising in the first place; giving people the support they need to make transformational changes to their own lives when problems arise; and spearheading new multi-agency, outcome focused approaches in order to address problems in the round.

The achievements set out in this report show how much can change in two years, and what this change means to individuals. We have made substantial progress against the commitments set out in the original “Social Justice: transforming lives” document, but we have not stopped there, and this report outlines what further action is required and how we should keep up the pressure on what we have created, which carries the profound theme of making meaningful life changes to the most vulnerable in our society.

By restating our commitment to transforming lives, and continuing to drive change in Government, at a local level and across the voluntary sector, in how we help families and individuals in need, we will make social justice a reality for everyone in the United Kingdom.

Let us continue to work together to build on this promising work. Our aim is not just about social justice in this Parliament; it is about social justice for years to come.

Oral Answers to Questions

Iain Duncan Smith Excerpts

Monday 3rd November 2014 Commons Chamber

[David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)]

2. What assessment he has made of the effect of his welfare reforms on the economy.

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

Our reforms are having a very positive impact on the economy, as my hon. Friend has seen. The deficit is down by more than a third, and we are at a record level of employment. Recent statistics have shown that both the number and rate of workless households is at a record low, too—the lowest since 1996.

[David T. C. Davies]

May I commend my right hon. Friend on these reforms, which as he said have led to record falls in unemployment while also cutting the deficit? Does he agree with me that all of this is threatened by the policies suggested by Labour Members, who caused the financial chaos that we have had to deal with in the first place?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. It is worth highlighting one particularly revealing set of figures. For workless households, both the number and the rate are at record lows: 3.3 million and 15.9% are the lowest since ’96. Children in workless households number 1.5 million, at a rate of 12.7%—again, the lowest on record. Under Labour, some 2 million children lived in workless households. That is now collapsing, thanks to the work we are doing. Labour’s plans would only return us to the bad old days.

[John Healey (Wentworth and Dearne) (Lab)]

Why are jobcentre staff being told to say to people, “We are not here to help you to find work; we are simply here to check that you do it for yourself”?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I do not believe that that is correct. I have the highest respect for the people who man jobcentres all over the country, and who do a remarkable job in helping many of those who have fallen out of work to get back into it. Jobcentre staff now tell people that their own job is to help them to find and take work, but that they themselves have a responsibility to do whatever is necessary to find work and take it. Their job is a combination of helping people and ensuring that they perform their task of seeking work and taking it. I am sure that, actually, the right hon. Gentleman agrees that that is the right thing to do.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

What assessment has my right hon. Friend undertaken of economies similar to ours that have ducked the challenge of welfare reform, and of how their economic performance compares with ours?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

We do not need to go very far to see the country that the Opposition held up as the paragon of virtue in the European Union. It is, of course, France. I should point out that the French pursued the policies that the present Opposition think are right for the British economy. Adult unemployment in France is at record, scorchingly high levels, and youth unemployment is far higher than it has ever been in this country, while it is falling here.

[Douglas Carswell (Clacton) (UKIP)]

As my right hon. Friend will know, the benefit cap is encouraging some people to move out of London, where rents are high, to areas such as Clacton and Thanet. Does he agree that local councils should be able to act to discourage benefit migration of that kind?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

There has been very little movement of more than about five miles from people’s existing homes as a result of the benefit cap. Most people have settled, and many—two thirds—have either gone back to work or found alternative employment. Let me say to the hon. Gentleman that there is something called the discretionary housing payment, and his local council, like any other, can make decisions about how it modifies the process. It is up to councils to do that, and we leave it with them.

[Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)]

The flagship of welfare reform was supposed to be universal credit. The Secretary of State’s former adviser told Radio 4 last week that the Secretary of State had known that the project was going badly wrong since May 2012, but he continued to tell the House that it was “exactly on track”. The Chair of the Public Accounts Committee expects IT write-offs to exceed half a billion pounds after the election. What is the right hon. Gentleman’s estimate?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Yet again, the right hon. Gentleman has got his facts completely wrong. The reality is that, as was announced only a few weeks ago, universal credit is not only doing well, but is to be rolled out nationally. The right hon. Gentleman may be smiling because he has the idea that Labour might somehow get into government, and might inherit a success. I can tell him that Labour will not get into government, but universal credit will get more people back to work. It is already the case that it will give the economy net benefits of more than £30 billion, and there will be direct benefits of some £9 billion a year as a direct result of the roll-out that we are planning successfully.

[Stephen Timms]

According to page 34 of the “21st Century Welfare” Green Paper,

“The IT changes that would be necessary to deliver”

universal credit

“would not constitute a major IT project.”

Is not the problem—as I pointed out to him at the time—that the Secretary of State failed to grasp the scale of the undertaking at the outset, and that hundreds of millions of pounds have been wasted as a result?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Again, the right hon. Gentleman is wrong. No money has been wasted. The roll-out means that, with all the work that we are doing, the vast majority is reusable through the digital system. I should be happy to invite him into my office to discuss the issue; the door has always been open to him.

Let me also say this, however. I wish that the Opposition would stop trying to play silly games and would recognise that this benefit, which is now being rolled out successfully and whose national roll-out has been announced, will be a massive benefit for those who are seeking work and those who are in work. It is time that the Opposition sat down with jobseekers and those who run the jobcentres, and got their story straight. The hon. Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves) spent about half an hour in a jobcentre, and then disappeared without talking to anyone there.

[Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab)]

3. If his Department will make an assessment of the potential effect on child poverty of a two-year freeze in benefits.

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

Under this Government, the number of children in relative poverty has fallen by 300,000. The Government have no plans to make any further assessment of this kind. Such an assessment would only be provided in reference to Government policy.

[Rushanara Ali]

The End Child Poverty coalition recently found that almost half of all children in my constituency now live in poverty. Of the 2.6 million children living in poverty across the UK, two thirds rely on tax credits and in-work benefits. How does the Minister square that with the recent changes to benefits, which are going to make matters worse, and is he today redefining poverty?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I am interested in the hon. Lady’s question because in the report Alan Milburn brought out as part of his commission he recommended that we should

“supplement the existing child poverty targets with new measures to give a more rounded picture of those in poverty”,

and I agree with that. That is what we have set out to do. We took a consultation, and we are now considering that consultation and we will be bringing forward recommendations.

May I just say to the hon. Lady, however, that many of the forecasts about child poverty proved to be wrong? Child poverty has actually fallen, and, interestingly, I notice that the figures for her area show that Tower Hamlets has seen the largest fall of any local authority in England, down 7.1%, and down 9.6% since 2010 for those on tax credits and below the poverty line.

[Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

I am sure that when I voted for the welfare cap I was surrounded in the Division Lobby by large numbers of Labour Members of Parliament. Does my right hon. Friend agree that one can only have an effective welfare cap, and cap the welfare bill, if benefits do not rise faster than wages?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

My right hon. Friend is absolutely right and he is approaching this from the logical perspective, which is that we have a responsibility to make sure that the economy is in balance, that we get the deficit down and that we are able to afford what we want to do to support the most vulnerable. What the Opposition fail to recognise time and again is that the economy that they left in a totally wrecked position has got to be sorted out; we cannot just go spending what we do not earn.

[Mr Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab)]

Will the right hon. Gentleman accept that children are also being pushed into poverty because his Department is not pursuing errant non-resident fathers vigorously enough? As he knows, my constituent Lisa Jones, a hard-working single mother, has been totally frustrated by the lackadaisical attitude of the Child Support Agency in tracking down the father, despite knowing his mother’s address, when he owes £23,000 and she has been struggling on tax credits and housing benefits to bring up a teenage boy while the father takes exotic holidays and avoids court orders. Will the right hon. Gentleman stop his weasel-worded replies to me and sort this matter out now?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I completely agree that in the right hon. Gentleman’s individual case, which I do know about and I recognise, that money should go to the parent with care. We fully agree with that and the CSA, part of the Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission, is bearing down to try and get the details of this individual. As he knows, this case is a little complicated because the individual moves time and again before the agencies can get hold of him, but I have to say that I have already intervened by talking to them about this, and I promise the right hon. Gentleman this, and ask him to pass this on to his constituent: I personally will take direct interest in this because it is outrageous that this individual gets away with what he is doing. I have told the CMEC that it must bear down on these cases. The reforms we are bringing in will do just that, and I hope the right hon. Gentleman can reassure his constituent that we will sort this out.

[Mr Speaker]

There will be a further report to the House on the matter in due course. I am quite confident of that.

[Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con)]

Can my right hon. Friend confirm that, in spite of what Opposition Members say, relative child poverty has fallen by 300,000 under this Government since 2010?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Yes, and it is something the Opposition do not really want to talk about. The forecast was that it would rise. In fact, it has come down. It is also important to recognise that nearly 400,000 fewer children now live in workless households and that the proportion of children on free school meals getting five good GCSEs is up from 31% under the last Government to 38% as of a year ago.

[Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)]

4. How many people are claiming jobseeker’s allowance in Bury North constituency.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr David Ruffley (Bury St Edmunds) (Con)]

9. What recent discussions he has had with his EU counterparts on measures to reduce benefit tourism.

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

My Ministers, officials, and I are in regular dialogue with the European Commission and other member states about the co-ordination and reform of social security. The most recent meeting was at the October Employment and Social Policy Council.

[Mr Ruffley]

The think-tank Open Europe today proposed that EU migrants’ eligibility for in-work benefits and out-of-work benefits be restricted for the first three years. Are my right hon. Friend’s EU counterparts in northern Europe sympathetic to such views?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Although I have not read the report, Open Europe has stated what we are already discussing with Ministers of many of the other countries concerned. They are all pretty much in agreement that the present system does not give them enough leeway, and there is a general sense that they want people to contribute more before they receive benefits. That is very much the tenor of the discussion, so what the think-tank writes is pretty much what I think is going to happen in Europe.

[Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for his decision to ensure that my constituents who fled Sierra Leone because of Ebola were able to claim benefits and were not affected by the habitual residence test. Will he therefore reinstate the old rule whereby people who were advised by British embassies and high commissions to come back to Britain will have the habitual residence rule waived?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The moment I heard the hon. Lady’s question to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health, I immediately said to the Department, “Let me have the news on this”, and I changed the policy on that specifically for Ebola. I am keeping the matter under review to look at whether it is necessary to make a wider exemption, depending on what the embassies say, and I will come back to her about that in due course. I was horrified to see what had happened to her constituents.

[Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab)]

10. What recent estimate he has made of the number of people subject to the under-occupancy penalty who have moved into a smaller home since the introduction of that penalty.

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

The latest published figures showed that, as a result of various actions, 65,000 people were no longer affected by the removal of the spare room subsidy. As at December 2013, around 22,000 had downsized or moved a year ago. New figures to be published in due course show that if that trend continues, up to 50,000 will have moved or downsized by now, with the total no longer affected even higher.

[Julie Hilling]

The justification for the cruel and heartless bedroom tax is that it would force people to move into smaller homes. As only about 5% of people hit by the tax have been able to move, not least because in areas such as mine there are no smaller properties to move to, does the Secretary of State accept that this policy has manifestly failed?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Actually, I do not, and by the way I think the hon. Lady’s figures are not correct. I gave her higher figures even for last December. The rationale for the policy was fairness. The previous Government left us with the situation where some on housing benefit in the private sector were not allowed to occupy houses that had extra rooms, so balancing that is fair. Getting housing benefit spending under control after it nearly doubled in cash terms under the previous Government, and helping those living in overcrowded accommodation while we build more houses, giving them a chance to move into houses where they can fit their families—that is decent and fair.

[Mrs Anne McGuire (Stirling) (Lab)]

Given that, according to recent surveys by social landlords, more than half the people impacted by the bedroom tax are now in arrears, what advice would the Secretary of State give those social landlords, particularly housing associations, about the unsustainable financial position they now find themselves in?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Of course, we always keep in close contact with social landlords to ensure that they do what they are meant to do and do not overcharge. The Homes and Communities Agency’s latest figures show that arrears have fallen in the same period from last year and rent collection among housing associations is stable at around 98%, so I think that it is safe to assume that the under-occupancy penalty has had little effect on housing association arrears.

[Gregg McClymont (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East) (Lab)]

The bedroom tax surely has a claim to be the most wrong-headed and iniquitous policy introduced by any Government in recent memory. The Government’s justification for this cruel tax was that putting it on social housing tenants would incentivise families and individuals to move into smaller homes, but the policy has one fatal flaw: the absence of homes for those families and individuals to move into. Surely the Secretary of State must today concede that the policy has been an abject failure and scrap the tax immediately.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Apart from the rhetoric, the reality is that the hon. Gentleman is wrong. It was his Government who started the process in the first place. I remind him that when they introduced the local housing allowance, they refused to allow anybody who accepted that benefit to live in a house that had extra bedrooms, because that would be unfair on those who were in that accommodation. We have restored that fairness. That is the right thing to do, and it saves £500 million a year.

[Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

11. What forecast he has made of the likely level of child poverty in (a) 2015 and (b) 2020.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

The number of people in in-work poverty fell by 300,000, according to the latest figures. The rate is flat in general terms since the election, despite there being more people in work than ever before, and there are almost a million more people in working families and above the poverty line.

[Kerry McCarthy]

Tomorrow is equal pay day, which marks the day on which women effectively start working for free because they earn on average only 80p for every £1 a man earns. Does the Secretary of State agree that addressing the gender pay gap, which has got worse under his Government, is key to tackling in-work poverty, and what does he intend to do about it?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

First, let us start from where we are: more women are now in work than ever before, which is a huge start. I also accept—[Interruption.] The rate is even better: it is a record rate. Of course, it is absolutely vital and right to ensure that women who go to work get paid a decent salary. My right hon. Friend the Minister for Employment has been leading the charge for the Department, doing a lot of campaigning. Universal credit, as it rolls out nationally, delivers for working women a far better deal, with higher wages, than they would get under the present system.

[Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab)]

Given that 20% of workers are struggling on the minimum wage alone, when was the last time the Secretary of State spoke to employers about adopting a living wage for their workers?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I have talked to employers endlessly about making sure that they pay a decent wage—first, making sure that people pay the minimum wage, which the last Government were rather slack about but we have done a lot on. My own Department pays our employees in London the London living wage, and we negotiated with the contractor to make sure everybody gets it, including all the cleaners.

[Mr Speaker]

I am sure that the House is aware—but if not, I can inform Members—that the House of Commons is itself an accredited living wage employer.

[Mr Dominic Raab (Esher and Walton) (Con)]

T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

Today, I welcome the tougher action my Department has taken to recoup debt and safeguard taxpayers’ money. Now, where overpayments result from benefit fraud, the Department will always recover the maximum amount in legislation, ending concessions that previously meant that people paid back less, and making exceptions only where children will be affected.

[Mr Raab]

Will the Secretary of State confirm that, on the latest official data, child poverty, elderly poverty, fuel poverty, inequality—using the Gini coefficient—the numbers of people not in education, employment or training, and the gender pay gap are all, every single one, lower under this Government than when Labour was in office?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

This Government have dealt with huge problems that were left to us. First, we had a collapsed economy. We are now putting that right, and we are also getting more people back to work. The best way to get people out of poverty is to get their families into work. Under this Government, there is now the lowest number of households in poverty.

[Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab)]

As others have remarked, this week is living wage week, when we celebrate the success of employers and campaigners in moving towards getting more workers paid a wage that they can afford to live on. Under this Government, the number of people paid less than a living wage has risen from 3.6 million to 4.9 million—more than one in five people. Does the Secretary of State agree that this Government’s failure to tackle low pay means that more people in work are living in poverty, which is a key reason why the Government are spending £400 million more on housing benefit for people in work than when they came into office?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

It is good to see the hon. Lady; I know that she did not turn up and vote for her party’s own motion last week, and did not even sign it, but now we have her here. I answer her question by simply saying this: the reality is that we have seen the minimum wage rise faster under this Government than under the previous Government, with an increase of nearly 10% since the election. My right hon. Friend the Business Secretary is doing everything he can to pursue companies that do not pay the minimum wage, and we are prosecuting them.

[Rachel Reeves]

First, I would like the Secretary of State to withdraw what he said about my not being here last week. He does not know the reasons why I was not here, and I expect him to withdraw those comments.

The truth is that the in-work benefits bill is rising in real terms because of this Government’s failure to build a recovery that benefits everyone, not just a few at the top. We have seen a historic squeeze on wages for the majority and the minimum wage falling behind the increase in inflation, with an increase of just 70p in five years. The reality is that taxpayers are footing the bill for the spread of low pay and insecurity under this Government. Is it not time that the Secretary of State adopted Labour’s plans to raise the minimum wage, to get more workers paid a living wage, to ban exploitative zero-hours contracts, and to build an economy that works for all working people?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I remind the hon. Lady that it was under her Government that the minimum wage stalled. Under this Government, it has risen by nearly 10% to £6.50 from October 2014. As for those who are supposed to be worse off, it is calculated using real earnings. Labour Members use a very simplistic calculation, and it does not give the full picture. The reality is that this Government categorically have done more for low-paid people than the previous Government did in their whole time in office.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)]

T4. A couple of weeks ago, a very disturbing press report said that teachers are having to resort to spending their reserves, or even the pupil premium money, on providing food, clothes, transport, beds, and even ovens for children living in poverty because they take the view that if children are not fed and have nowhere to sleep, they will never be able to achieve educationally. Is it not an absolute disgrace that schools are having to resort to that because the safety net is not there to meet the fundamental needs of these children?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I have not seen that report, but I am happy to look at it. However, I believe that the work being done in schools under this Government to support people who come from low-income families is phenomenal. Introducing that support for those children means that more children are now staying in school. As I said earlier, they are getting better results directly as a result of that support provided for them in school.

[Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con)]

T7. Casework in my constituency has shown that, although the Department for Work and Pensions does well in identifying and prioritising claims made by terminally ill patients, when those claims are passed to Atos there is a lack of monitoring. What steps is the Department taking to ensure that those claims are dealt with in a timely manner at every point in the system?

--- Later in debate ---

[Graeme Morrice (Livingston) (Lab)]

T5. One of the greatest failings of this Government is the high level of in-work poverty and the significant cost of in-work benefits. Therefore—this is a similar question to that asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North (Ann McKechin), who stole my thunder a tad—is it not time for the Secretary of State to be a real advocate of the living wage, to help address this problem?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Under this Government, take-home pay rose last year by more than inflation for all but the richest 10%. Average annual pay growth is 3.7% for those who have stayed in work between 2012 and 2013, and disposable income last year was higher than in any year under the previous Government.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

T8. Which Minister is responsible for worklessness? Will they get to their feet and accept the grateful thanks of the nation that the number of workless households is the lowest since records began, and will they explain to the House how it has been achieved?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

This is a tough one, but I will endeavour to do my best. On behalf of my team and my Government, I accept that we are doing the right thing, and more people are going to work than ever before.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

T6. Will the Secretary of State confirm the rumours that the job fairs occurring up and down the country get a lot of assistance from his Department and that that assistance goes to Conservative MPs and even Conservative candidates, but that Labour and Opposition Members are not offered the same support when they run anything similar?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

That allegation is without foundation. The jobcentres in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency and all the others will give every bit of support to every Labour Member and any other Member, nationalist or otherwise, to get their job fairs going. I recommend that Labour Members do more to create job fairs in their own constituencies, to help people get back to work.

[Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con)]

T9. Ministers will be aware that another first for this side of the House is the launch of the Enfield over-50s jobs forum, helping to break down the barriers of getting older people back into work. Will Ministers meet me and support the vast number of local and national companies that have got behind it and fully support it?

[Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab)]

In earlier questions on the bedroom tax, it was not mentioned that this unfair charge hits 60,000 unpaid family carers, many of whom are not able to move from adapted homes. They cannot move into work, they cannot take extra hours and they need those additional rooms, which are essential for getting enough sleep to enable them to carry on caring. Is it not about time that we accepted that they should be exempt from the bedroom tax?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

We have already had court cases that leave this very clearly with the Department. Our view is that those who need to be exempted are exempted, and we have left discretionary payments of some £380 million with local authorities to make those local discretionary decisions themselves. The hon. Lady’s local authority can do just that.

[Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con)]

T10. Will my right hon. Friend join me in welcoming this Government’s approach to the national minimum wage and its rise to £6.50 last month, which is the biggest cash increase since 2008 and 3% above inflation?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

That is exactly what has happened. The minimum wage has risen faster under this Government than under the previous Government, and we are driving for greater acceptance among businesses.

[Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)]

How many people does the Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions, the hon. Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper), aspire to help on an annual basis through the Access to Work programme?

[Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

It is all very well for Germany to lecture us on the importance of the free movement of workers in Europe, but that is what it is supposed to be about—workers. Because Germany has a contributory system, one cannot arrive there and claim benefits. Will the Secretary of State take action, sort this matter out, take on the European Commission and say that people have to contribute taxes for three years before they can claim benefits here?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

We have already taken action. We have closed many of the loopholes and tightened things up. Come Monday next week, nobody will be able to claim out-of-work benefit for more than three months, and after that people will have to leave the country. They will not get housing benefit, they have to be able to speak English and they have to show that they are resident here. And that is only the beginning.

[Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab)]

A research group from Oxford university has analysed the data from the Government’s new sanctions regime. It has identified that 4.5 million people on jobseeker’s allowance have been sanctioned, including young people. One in four of those who were sanctioned left JSA. More than half of those who left did so for reasons other than employment. In the light of that, will the Secretary of State apologise for his claim that his policies are getting people into work, when they clearly are not?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

As far as I am concerned, jobcentres apply sanctions only as a last resort. With the new actions that we have taken to get mandatory reconsideration, the number of appeals has dropped. The truth is that when the hon. Lady’s party was in government, it accepted the need for sanctions when people did not do what they were expected to do. Only in opposition does it claim that it is opposed to sanctions. It would not implement that policy if it was in government.

[Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con)]

I welcome the fall in the number of JSA claimants in my constituency from more than 1,500 to below 700 since 2010. However, one area in which we face significant recruitment problems is nursing. That is a problem not just in Staffordshire but across the country. Will the Secretary of State talk to the Secretary of State for Health to see whether we can increase the number of training places at universities across the country?

[Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)]

Will the Secretary of State update us on the work that is being done to prepare for the application of the welfare cap? Will he say whether that work has been informed by devolution considerations?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

As the hon. Gentleman knows, we are in the middle of discussing devolution proposals that emanated in Scotland but that cover all other elements of the United Kingdom. The key point that I make to him again and again is that Northern Ireland has not implemented the welfare legislation. As a result of that, it is difficult for us to deal with Northern Ireland directly on these matters, but I am certainly willing to engage.

[Mr Speaker]

As I indicated earlier, I will take the point of order because it relates to these matters.

[Rachel Reeves]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Secretary of State criticised me for not turning up to vote on an Opposition day motion last week. He knows nothing of why I was not able to attend last week. I kindly ask him to withdraw his criticism and apologise for the aspersion that I could not be bothered to turn up to vote in the House of Commons.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I simply made the point that it was good to see the hon. Lady here because she did not turn up to vote in the last debate. I understand that she retweeted that she was in Rochester at the time. She was not put down as a signatory to the motion. Those are the points that I made.

[Rachel Reeves]

rose—

--- Later in debate ---

[Rachel Reeves]

Thank you, Mr Speaker. I was not in Rochester last week. I will give the Secretary of State one last opportunity to withdraw the aspersion and apologise. He knows nothing of the reason why I was not here last week, so I ask him to withdraw the aspersion and apologise.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I stand by my assertion that the hon. Lady did not vote and that her name was not on the Order Paper.

[Mr Speaker]

Order. That is the end of it for now.

Work Capability Assessments

Iain Duncan Smith Excerpts

Thursday 30th October 2014 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

The previous Government appointed Atos the sole provider for carrying out work capability assessments in 2008.

On 27 March, Official Report, column 56-58WS, the former Minister with responsibility for disabled people announced that following negotiations with Atos, the Government had reached a mutual agreement for Atos to exit the contract to deliver health-related assessments including work capability assessments before it is due to end in August 2015.

Following a rigorous procurement exercise, I am pleased to announce today that MAXIMUS Health and Human Services Ltd has been awarded the contract to deliver health-related assessments including the work capability assessments for DWP. The contract is to provide a national service for three years, with the option to extend twice by a further year. Operational service will commence on 1 March 2015.

The transfer of undertakings protection of employment regulations will apply and most of the Atos employees currently employed on this contract will transfer to MAXIMUS Health and Human Services Ltd, who will also use the existing Atos infrastructure and IT. The new provider will therefore be able to step into the contract without disrupting the service.

My absolute priority for MAXIMUS Health and Human Services Ltd will be to transition the service smoothly from the current provider and stabilise the operation to deliver the best service possible for claimants, increase the volume of assessments carried out and reduce waiting times without compromising quality.

MAXIMUS Health and Human Services Ltd runs health care programmes in Australia, Canada and the United States and is one of the largest occupational health providers in the UK. It employs large numbers of doctors, nurses and other health care professionals and brings years of experience conducting independent health assessments. MAXIMUS Health and Human Services Ltd is already a key Work programme provider and was recently awarded a contract to run the Department’s new Fit for Work service.

MAXIMUS Health and Human Services Ltd will bring both clinical expertise and a fresh approach that, over time, will significantly reduce waiting times and provide a better experience for claimants. A key focus of its plan is on recruiting and retaining the high-quality health care professionals the service needs. MAXIMUS Health and Human Services Ltd staff will spend more time engaging with and helping claimants earlier in the process, so that claimants know what to expect and can better prepare for the assessments. This should help reduce the number of people who currently do not attend assessments.

I am confident MAXIMUS Health and Human Services Ltd will bring about the changes required to improve claimants’ experience of the assessment process.

We already have in place an agreement with Atos covering the remaining term of its contract. This agreement is more robust, with an agreed performance regime that gives us confidence delivery goals will be achieved. My Department, Atos and MAXIMUS Health and Human Services Ltd will work together during the transition period to ensure a smooth handover.

Atos will continue to deliver health-related assessments including work capability assessments in Northern Ireland under a separate contract.

Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Welfare Reform (Disabled People)

Iain Duncan Smith Excerpts

Tuesday 28th October 2014 Commons Chamber

[Kate Green]

That is absolutely right. As I will show later, on several occasions when I have asked Ministers for information about what is happening, the answer has either been that they do not know or that they do not record the information at all.

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

I have known the hon. Lady for a long time, and I am concerned by a charge she is making. Will she explain to the House why, if this matter of the clumsy and offensive words for which Lord Freud has apologised were of concern to the Labour party to the extent it says, Labour waited weeks after it had the recording to bring it forward at Prime Minister’s questions? Surely if Labour Members were so concerned about this—instead of the faux concern they are now showing—they would have raised it immediately and demanded an apology and an explanation. Why did they not do so immediately rather than wait for weeks?

[Kate Green]

We were so taken aback and stunned by these remarks, and we considered them so offensive and serious, that we considered it right to bring them before the Prime Minister in the highest forum in this land, this Chamber, in the very first Prime Minister’s Question Time that we had the opportunity to do so.

Persistent Child Poverty Target

Iain Duncan Smith Excerpts

Thursday 16th October 2014 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

Today I intend to lay regulations to set a new, statutory persistent child poverty target for the UK. Later today, jointly with the Minister for Schools, my right hon. Friend the Member for Yeovil (Mr Laws), I will also publish the Government’s response to its consultation on the target on the: https://www.gov.uk website. I will place a copy of the Government’s response in the Library of the House.

The Child Poverty Act 2010 requires us to set a persistent child poverty target by the end of 2014. It is our firm belief that we need a revised set of child poverty measures which underline our commitment to reducing child poverty, but better reflect the evidence about its underlying causes. We are not yet in a position to put these forward. In the meantime we remain committed to meeting our existing obligations under the Act.

At the end of this Parliament, as at the start, the coalition Government are committed to ending child poverty by 2020, transforming the lives of the most vulnerable in our society. Despite the tough economic climate, we are making progress. With employment at a record high, up by nearly 1.7 million since 2010, there are now 290,000 fewer children in workless households. Poor children are doing better than ever at school, with the proportion of children on free school meals getting good GCSEs, including English and maths, having increased from 31% in 2010 to 38% in 2013. This is the kind of lasting life change that makes a real difference to children’s outcomes.

We recognise that persistent poverty can be particularly harmful to children’s life chances. In representations to our consultation on the proposed new persistent child poverty target, the Social Mobility and Child Poverty Commission, and others, put particular emphasis on the damaging effects of persistent poverty and urged the Government to continue to put this at the centre of policy ambition. We will do so. Our Child Poverty Strategy 2014-17, published in June, sets out action on this front, such as tackling entrenched worklessness. We will continue to focus action on breaking the cycle of persistent poverty, exploring what further steps can be taken to reduce persistent poverty as far and as fast as possible. We will keep the degree of ambition of the target itself under close review.

We are grateful to all those who responded during the consultation and provided their views on the level of the target. In its response, the Social Mobility and Child Poverty Commission put forward an alternative approach, which would involve setting a target as a proportion of relative poverty rather than at a fixed level as defined in the Act.

We carefully considered all representations made to us and have decided, on balance, to set the persistent child poverty target at less than 7%. This is based on detailed analysis looking at the relationship between relative poverty and persistent poverty historically. A target of less than 7% is consistent with the other Act targets, provides the most coherent overall suite of targets and will drive continued efforts to address persistent child poverty.

We do not believe that the approach offered by the Commission would provide the coherence of targets which we consider important. It would also mean that the target could be achieved even if numbers in persistent poverty remained the same while short-term child poverty increased. This could create a possible disincentive to take action on child poverty in all its forms.

The Government are therefore laying draft regulations in Parliament which set the persistent child poverty target at less than 7%. These must be debated and approved by both Houses before they can be made and brought into force.

We will continue to focus Government action on tackling the damaging effects of persistent poverty, exploring what further steps we can take to reduce it as far and as fast as possible. We will also keep the degree of ambition of the target itself under close review.

Welfare Reform

Iain Duncan Smith Excerpts

Monday 13th October 2014 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

Today I can confirm plans for the next stage of implementing universal credit to all remaining jobcentres and local authorities as we progress national expansion through 2015-16 and secure delivery of universal credit across Great Britain.

Universal credit is a major reform which is restoring work incentives and transforming the welfare state in Britain for the better.

Once fully implemented, universal credit will account for £70 billion of benefit spending each year with up to £35 billion of potential economic benefits to society over 10 years. It is estimated to increase those in work by up to 300,000 once its impact is fully realised.

For a programme of this scale, the Government’s priority has been, and continues to be, safe and secure delivery. This started with the successful launch of the pathfinder in April 2013 where our test and learn approach enabled us to test that universal credit was working as intended. We have maintained this careful, controlled expansion of universal credit, continually learning as we go, from October 2013.

Universal credit claims are now taken in over 50 jobcentres and will be available in nearly 100 jobcentres by Christmas—more than one in eight across Great Britain.

We have increased the groups who can claim universal credit to include couples and, from this autumn, we will extend this further to include families in the north-west.

Now national expansion will progress from February 2015 to all remaining jobcentres and local authorities for new single claimants previously eligible for jobseeker’s allowance, including those with existing housing benefit and tax credit claims.

The Department continues to deliver universal credit based on experience and early evidence, with changes in perceptions and attitudes beginning to lead to positive changes in behaviour, and will shortly publish its report 'Universal Credit at Work' alongside an associated evaluation.

The universal credit service is being continuously improved, working with our local authority delivery partners to enhance support offered to households. I can confirm:

We are now trialling key aspects of universal support—delivered locally in 11 partnership areas across Great Britain to inform future delivery. These include triaging household needs to tailor personalised integrated services, and the sharing of data, skills and estate to support more households into work—to ensure the right integrated local foundations are established for further universal credit expansion.

We will put in place funded delivery partnership agreements between Jobcentre Plus and local authorities to make available more support for those who need extra help, including developing co-commissioning capability as we establish personal budgeting support in all local communities through expansion.

Through national expansion we will establish these partnerships to help households progress into work as we develop Universal Support—delivered locally building on the Local Support Services Framework—ensuring effective integrated services are established locally ahead of expansion to all claimant groups from 2016 as legacy benefit systems close to new claims.

We are also bringing forward further test and learn innovations. I can confirm:

Universal credit work coaches will engage with all households at their work search interviews to assess financial capability, referring to co-commissioned personal budgeting support for advice as appropriate; and identifying if an alternative payment arrangement is necessary for the housing element of universal credit.

In-work progression pilots will be extended to help households increase their earnings once they have found work. These trials will ensure we develop our approach further based on evidence as we progress universal credit labour market transformation, working in partnership with local authorities, employers, colleges and other partners to boost in-work support and progression.

We will also build smarter segmentation capability for work coaches, including via enhanced digital channels, to maximise the impact and efficiency of early interventions for those who need extra support.

We will commence testing an enhanced digital service for universal credit later this year for the full scope of universal credit households in a limited local area.

Taken together, these steps will secure the delivery of universal credit.

This plan—assured by the Major Projects Authority and signed off by HM Treasury—delivers national expansion and transition, enabling natural migration to build the universal credit case load over time as household circumstances change and they become eligible for, and claim, universal credit.



The Department will personalise support to maximise flows into work as more households move onto universal credit as legacy benefits close to new claims from

2016. This establishes the universal credit service across Great Britain, complete by 2017, with the case load continuing to build naturally thereafter.

We will keep all longer-term plans under review as we progress universal credit based on our test and learn approach, securing long-term transformation of the welfare state and UK labour market in a safe and secure way.

Affordable Homes Bill

Iain Duncan Smith Excerpts

Friday 5th September 2014 Commons Chamber

[Sir Tony Baldry]

The hon. Lady and other Labour Members are refusing to acknowledge some fundamental points about the Bill. She voted for the welfare cap and the Minister has said that the Bill would cost the Treasury £1 billion. If it were passed, therefore, and if, by any mischance, a Labour Government were to be elected next spring, they would have to find £1 billion of savings elsewhere in the welfare budget. If Labour votes in support of the Bill, it will behove Labour Front-Bench team, given that the Labour party is governed by collective responsibility just as much as the Government are, to tell the House and the country exactly where they would find £1 billion of savings elsewhere in the welfare budget to compensate for the cost of the Bill.

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

For clarification, all the figures were adjudicated by the independent Office for Budget Responsibility, not the Government. The Opposition and the hon. Member for St Ives (Andrew George), who is promoting the Bill, have said they want the figures checked, but the OBR is an independent body and therefore the figures stand and include all the costs and savings.

[Sir Tony Baldry]

I am sure the whole House is grateful to my right hon. Friend for that clarification and confirmation.

I thought it would be interesting to go back and read the Committee proceedings of the Welfare Reform Bill in 2006. Hon. Members might not recall, but, interestingly, when the proposal for limiting housing benefit for those in the private rented sector was first mooted, the original consultation paper also consulted on a proposal to limit housing benefit for those in social housing on exactly the same basis. Nowhere on Second Reading or in Committee did the right hon. Member for Stirling (Mrs McGuire), the then Minister, ever explain to the House or the Committee why the then Labour Government decided only to focus the housing benefit changes on the private rented sector and not to include social housing.

In Committee, various hon. Members sought to make exactly the same proposals and changes as are being proposed today. For example, Members were keen to know whether alterations could be made for under-25s in the private rented sector, and the Minister said that the changes were

“part of a package that is intended to make housing benefit more transparent and more understandable to people….I hark back to our short debate on Tuesday evening: the new local housing allowance applies only to those in the private rented sector.”—[Official Report, Standing Committee A, 2 November 2006; c. 424-45.]

In other words, the changes were being introduced entirely because the last Government thought it necessary to save money.

Pension Schemes Bill

Iain Duncan Smith Excerpts

Tuesday 2nd September 2014 Commons Chamber

[Gregg McClymont]

I will give way to the hon. Gentleman in a moment. Let me make the point again in case it has been misunderstood by Government Members. The annuities market was broken because individuals did not exercise choice effectively. Why do the Government believe that individuals will now exercise choice effectively in a complicated marketplace? That is presumably why the Government put such emphasis on the guidance guarantee. They are right to do that because if this scheme is to work effectively, guidance must be of the highest quality. The hon. Member for Warrington South (David Mowat) mentioned advice, but this is not advice; it is guidance. There is a significant difference and the Government must reflect on that.

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

rose—

--- Later in debate ---

[Gregg McClymont]

I will come back to the hon. Gentleman’s point after letting the Secretary of State come in.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I have become a little confused about the Opposition’s position, so perhaps the hon. Gentleman could clear something up. I was listening carefully to what he said. There was confusion when the Budget announcement was made, but finally the shadow Secretary of State said the Opposition supported the proposal. From what the shadow Minister has said today, however, it sounds like they do not support it and now neither support nor oppose it. Will he clarify their position? Do they support the idea of people choosing what to do with their own money when they come to buy their annuity?

[Gregg McClymont]

Given that Labour in opposition led the way in calling for reform of the annuities market, we welcome greater flexibility. However, because the Government have not yet introduced legislation, we do not know what the guidance guarantee will amount to, so surely any sensible Opposition doing their job would probe the Government on these points. That seems to be our constitutional role.

The constituent of the hon. Member for Hexham (Guy Opperman) is right that the annuities market did not work. I am asking the hon. Gentleman, who unfairly accuses me of dancing on the head of a pin, and others to reflect on the following point: if the annuities market did not work because individuals did not exercise the open market choices they were offered, how can we expect these reforms to be more successful, if the guidance is not cast iron of the highest quality and as expansive as possible? He looks puzzled, but it is a straightforward point, and it goes to the heart of the tension in the Government’s pensions policy. The building up of pension pots is based on a default opt-in, with choice exercised only if an individual chooses to opt out of the pension scheme the Government have put them in; yet it is suddenly suggested that, on retirement, individuals alone can get best value for money in what is a complex market known for mis-selling.

Oral Answers to Questions

Iain Duncan Smith Excerpts

Monday 1st September 2014 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) (Con)]

8. What steps he is taking to limit the availability of benefits to migrants from other EU member states.

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

Since January, EU jobseekers have not been able to claim jobseeker’s allowance until they have been in the country for at least three months and can then claim for only a maximum of six months. Shortly, we will further limit the claim time from six months to three months. In addition, EU jobseekers cannot now claim housing benefit.

[Stephen Metcalfe]

Will my right hon. Friend join me in welcoming the recent fall in non-UK nationals claiming working-age benefits, and will he do all he can to ensure that that trend continues?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

My hon. Friend raises an interesting point. Overall the total number of national insurance number registrations to adult overseas nationals is down by more than 7,000 on the year, or 1%. NINo registrations from outside the EU are down by 30,000 on the year, or 17%, and outside the EU annual registrations to all world areas have fallen to the lowest level since records began in 2002.

[Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

Will the Secretary of State confirm that when the Prime Minister finally reveals the shopping list for presentation to the European Union on renegotiation, it will include renegotiation of the position relating to benefits? Will he now specify which particular benefits he has in mind?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I am not in a position to pre-guess what the Prime Minister will decide in his negotiations—he will make it altogether clear. But I hope that both sides of the House, including the hon. Gentleman, will recognise that a negotiation followed by trusting the people to vote on whether they wish to stay in the EU is a good plan rather than a bad plan.

[Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con)]

21. I congratulate the Secretary of State on the introduction of a much more robust test before people qualify for benefit, but what discussions has he had with his European partners on further steps to prevent benefit tourism and to get the message across that the UK is a place where people come to work, not to claim?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I have visited and talked to a number of my colleagues across Europe—in Germany, Holland, Spain and France—and I have also talked to the Danish Minister. Everyone to whom I have spoken so far and many more—I see that the Poles have also come to the same conclusion—have decided that there is something fundamentally wrong with the European Commission interpretation of people’s right to access benefits in a country where they do not have residency. Recently, the Germans have tightened up in almost exactly the same way as we have done. We had all those people saying that what we were doing was terrible, but now that the Germans are doing it, those people have gone quite quiet.

[Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con)]

Is not the question of who gets a benefit from this country, or who comes to stay in this country, a matter for this Parliament, not for the EU?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

That is exactly the point that I have been making from the beginning. We have always said to the European Commission that this matter lay outside the treaties. It is a national Government responsibility, and it is national Governments who should take that responsibility. The Opposition did very little about organising this so that they would be able to stand against the EU Commission on that basis.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

9. How much his Department spent on benefits in 2010; and what estimate he has made of such spending in 2015.

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

In 2010-11, the Department for Work and Pensions spent £54 billion on working-age claimants and children at today's prices, and £106 billion on pensioners. Total expenditure was 9.8% of GDP. In 2015-16, as a result of our changes, the Department will spend £54 billion on working-age claimants and children at today's prices, and £116 billion on pensioners. Therefore, total expenditure is expected to be £170 billion, which is 9.6% of GDP. In this Parliament, we will therefore have saved cumulatively £50 billion, the equivalent of £1,900 for every household in the UK.

[Mr Hollobone]

Will my right hon. Friend confirm that for the first time in 16 years, thanks to his stewardship, the relentless annual increases in welfare spending have at last been brought under control, so that the proportion of our national output that goes on welfare spending has finally been controlled, allowing our economy more room to grow and more spending on important areas such as health and education?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

My hon. Friend is right. Last year, welfare spending fell in real terms for the first time in 16 years as a share of GDP, and will continue to do so. In 2010, spending was at 12.5%, and next year it will be at 11.9%. By 2015-16, the out-of-work benefit bill will fall back to pre-recession levels, down to 2.3% of GDP. It peaked under the last Government at nearly 3% of GDP.

[Mrs Emma Lewell-Buck (South Shields) (Lab)]

The Government claim that they are tackling what they call dependency on welfare. In the north-east, the number of working households claiming housing benefit has shot up by two thirds because wages are failing to keep up with rent. Will the Secretary of State admit that without action to tackle low pay or deal with soaring rents, the welfare bill will continue to rise?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The figure the hon. Lady did not give is that out-of-work housing benefit claims are falling, and that is because people who were claiming it are now going into work. That means that they are earning more money, which means that the likelihood of their being in poverty is far less. I wonder whether the hon. Lady would like to get up sometime and congratulate us on getting more people back to work and spending less on housing benefit as a result.

[Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)]

10. What recent discussions he has had with representatives of local authorities on transition plans relating to the closure of the independent living fund.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Nicholas Brown (Newcastle upon Tyne East) (Lab)]

11. When he expects the business case for universal credit to be fully signed off.

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

I announced in December that Her Majesty’s Treasury has approved funding for the universal credit programme in 2013-14 and 2014-15. The final stage in Treasury approvals is sign-off of the full business case, which covers the full lifetime of the programme. We expect to agree that very shortly.

[Mr Brown]

The answer to a similar question two months ago was “very shortly”, but it is taking rather longer than the Secretary of State intended. What are the major outstanding issues between his Department and the Treasury, and where does universal credit now stand in the Cabinet Office’s traffic light system?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Let me explain to the right hon. Gentleman that the reality is that we have agreed—I can run through the list for him—all the spending that is relevant to the plan that we set out at the end of last year. The final point relates to the full lifetime of that programme, which will take it all the way through, probably beyond all the years that anybody present will be in government. [Hon. Members: “Certainly you!”] To be fair, I do not think Labour will be in government given the way its Members behave. That is now being agreed and the reality is that it has to be done very carefully. I genuinely believe, from my discussions, that it will be signed off very shortly. The result will be that the programme will be seen for what it is: a programme that will deliver hugely to those who have the toughest lives and need the most support and help.

[Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

22. One can see the advantages of the introduction of universal credit to those whose lives are toughest, but will my right hon. Friend tell the House what the benefits to both employers and businesses might be once universal credit is fully implemented?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I invite anybody in the House to visit areas where universal credit is rolling out—across the north-west, and even here in London—not to talk to the likes of me but to the staff who operate the jobcentres, who will say that it has allowed them to get people started into work far quicker, so that they are taking work earlier and staying in work longer. It means that businesses on the high street can afford to take people on, to begin with for lower hours than they might otherwise have been able to do—in other words, not creating a job—and then expand it into a much fuller-time job, so improving the economy and improving lives.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

20. The Secretary of State has merely repeated what his Employment Minister has already said—that the strategic outline business case is approved until the end of the Parliament—but of course, in parting, the previous head of the civil service said that“we should not beat around the bush. It has not been signed off”,and the National Audit Office has slammed universal credit for “weak management, ineffective control and poor governance.”When are the Government going to get a grip of this chaotic shambles?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

It is always nice to live in the past, but the reality is that if the hon. Gentleman waits he will see that this programme is running well and will be delivering, that this programme of universal credit will benefit everybody who needs the support they most need, and that all the nonsense he is talking about will all go away.

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

The truth of the matter is that this programme—the Secretary of State’s pet project—is being kept on a life-support system, and all he can say is that the Treasury has guaranteed another 247 days of funding, with nothing beyond the end of this Parliament. He comes here again and says exactly what he said on 9 July, which was that this was going to be approved “very soon”. What has gone wrong? Did the Chief Secretary to the Treasury and the Secretary of State take two months going on holiday, or are there real sticking points in the programme because, frankly, the sums do not add up?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

There are no sticking points, but these matters need to be agreed carefully. This test-first-and-then-implement process is the way all future programmes will be implemented. I just want to quote Mr Manzoni, the new chief executive of the Major Projects Authority, who made it clear to the Public Accounts Committee in June that universal credit is stable and on track with the reset plan. [Interruption.] He said that it is stable and on track with the reset plan, so whatever the hon. Gentleman wants to say, when this is signed off I hope that he will come to the Dispatch Box and say that Labour Members fully support it and they will get on with it.

[Paul Uppal (Wolverhampton South West) (Con)]

12. What support his Department is providing for young people seeking employment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Henry Bellingham (North West Norfolk) (Con)]

T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

Today, I welcome an important step in our new test and learn approach to delivering universal credit, with the launch of 11 robust evaluation trials to test support for vulnerable households. We are working with local authorities in a way that has not been done before to make available a system of universal support that is delivered locally and that offers tailored help to get online and budget effectively as individuals progress into sustainable work.

[Mr Bellingham]

Is the Secretary of State aware that since July last year, unemployment in my constituency has fallen by a very welcome 689 people? That means that nearly 700 more families have a new wage earner and hope for the future. That is surely a clear vindication of his reforms and our long-term economic plan.

[Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab)]

Two thirds of children in poverty now live in families in which somebody is working, and a record 5 million people are earning less than a living wage. In-work poverty is an injustice and an indignity to those who suffer it, but it also costs the taxpayer through the benefit system. Will the Secretary of State tell us by how much the spending on housing benefit for people in work is expected to increase between 2010 and 2018?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I wish the hon. Lady had been listening to my answer to an earlier question—[Interruption.] No, the reality is that the number of people who are out of work and on housing benefit is falling. The number of those who are in work is rising. Under the last Government, we saw a rise in the number of people who were out of work and having to claim housing benefit. Let me also remind the hon. Lady, who has voted against every single measure we have taken, that our housing benefit reforms were set to reduce the amount of money. When the Labour Government left office, housing benefit was likely to rise to £26 billion. It will now rise at a far slower rate than that, because of the reforms that we have made to housing benefit.

[Rachel Reeves]

The reality is that housing benefit overall is going to go up in real terms from £23 billion at the beginning of this Parliament to £24.6 billion at the end of it. Housing benefit for people in work is forecast to rise by a staggering £12.9 billion between 2010 and 2018. Does that not show that taking action to make work pay would be a much more effective way of controlling housing benefit than the unfair and unworkable bedroom tax, which I and many of my colleagues will be voting to change this Friday, and which we need a Labour Government to repeal after the general election next year?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The hon. Lady is in a hole and she really should stop digging. Let me remind her of what we had to take over when we came into government. Left unreformed, the bill that Labour left us with would have exceeded £26 billion in 2014-15. Instead, today, it is £24 billion—£2 billion less. Under Labour, in-work and out-of-work housing benefit claimant numbers increased, and those who were in more despair, being out of work, had to claim higher payments. Under us, homelessness is down 7%, half the peak that occurred under the last Government, and rent collection is currently 98% higher than under the last Government. Also, housing association arrears fell during the last two quarters. All of that is better than anything that the last Government left us as a result of their record on spending.

[Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con)]

T2. A number of my constituents have experienced lengthy delays while waiting for a decision on a review of their personal independence payment application. That is a time of great uncertainty and stress for all concerned. In addition to the efforts that the Minister has already outlined, will he tell us what steps he will take to speed up the application, review and appeal processes?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Rob Wilson (Reading East) (Con)]

T7. In a few weeks, I will hold my eighth Reading jobs fair. At the previous seven, 20,000 jobseekers and 300 local businesses have already been welcomed. Will my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State join me in thanking all the businesses and partner organisations that have made that possible, and in welcoming the impact that it has had on reducing unemployment in the Reading area?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on working closely with businesses to get people back to work. Will he also pass on our congratulations to the businesses, small and large, that have done their level best to help deliver 1.7 million new jobs since the Government came to power and to turn the economy around so that it is the best performing economy in the whole of Europe?

[Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab)]

T6. With the lamentable record of the failures of Atos, the shocking delays in assessments, the injustice of the bedroom tax and the continuing scandal of the IT system for universal credit, why does the Secretary of State stay in the job?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I remind the right hon. Gentleman that this Government have got more people back to work, that we now have record levels of employment, that we have cut the deficit and that we are getting the cost of delivering welfare down. We inherited a shambles, and we have turned that around. That is the purpose of government.

[Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) (Con)]

Will my right hon. Friend join me in congratulating Rossendale jobcentre, which has just signed up nearly 45 people to its work experience programme, including me and my office? The first young person to come through my office on work experience, Liam, has just secured a job because of that work experience.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD)]

On 11 March last year, I asked the Secretary of State about under-occupancy. I said:

“Does the Secretary of State agree that no benefit reduction should take place until people have at least been offered somewhere appropriately sized and located?”—[Official Report, 11 March 2013; Vol. 560, c. 22.]

The Secretary of State said, “I agree”. What has he done to deliver that?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I remind my hon. Friend that we have given local authorities more than £300 million in discretionary housing payments. What they are meant to be doing right now—many of them are doing it, by the way—is finding people the accommodation that they require and supporting them through discretionary payments while they are looking for it. That is why we are saving £1 million a day and £500 million a year.

[Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab)]

A constituent of mine, an older, experienced woman, recently told me that when she was made redundant she got barely any help from our local jobcentre. It was therefore no surprise to me to see recent figures showing that the Work programme is getting a job for only one in eight workers over 50. Who is going to fix that—those who are running the Work programme or Ministers?

--- Later in debate ---

[Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)]

Is the Secretary of State aware of the impending crisis to the stability of institutions in Northern Ireland as a result of the failure to implement significant reforms to the welfare system there? If he is aware of those threats, what message has he for Sinn Fein, which has failed to introduce those changes and appears to be more interested in the need of residents in Monaghan than those in Northern Ireland?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Sinn Fein needs to face up to its responsibilities and cannot have it all ways. If it gets the welfare Bill through, it will benefit from the support that it will get, but it cannot sit in limbo land. I support what the hon. Gentleman has just said—it is time for Sinn Fein to get on and do what an elected Government need to do.

[Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD)]

Will the Minister provide an update on when the decision on the moratorium on funding for deaf interpreters for Access to Work will be announced, because we have been waiting for a report from the DWP?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Let me undertake to write to my hon. Friend as soon as I leave the House and give him the full details.

Universal Credit

Iain Duncan Smith Excerpts

Wednesday 9th July 2014 Commons Chamber

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

(Urgent Question): To ask the Employment Minister if she will make a statement on whether the Department for Work and Pensions’ business case for the implementation of universal credit has been approved by the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

In answering, let me lay out a couple of quick facts about where we are and then deal with the hon. Gentleman’s direct question.

Universal credit is a major reform that will transform the welfare state in Britain for the better, making 3 million people better off and bringing £35 billion of economic benefits to society. Rightly for a programme of this scale, the Government’s priority has been, and continues to be, its safe and secure delivery. This is demonstrated through our approach to date, which started with the successful launch of the pathfinder in April 2013 and has continued with the controlled expansion of universal credit.

On 5 December last year, I announced that universal credit would be rolled out to the north-west and expanded to couples from the summer of 2014, and would then expand to families later that year. That is exactly what is happening. A fortnight ago, we began our north-west expansion. Universal credit is now in 24 jobcentres and will reach 90 across the country by the end of the year. A week ago, we started taking claims from couples. This careful roll-out is allowing us, as we said we would, to learn as we go along, continuously improving the process—unlike so many of the programmes the previous Government instigated which crashed and burned.

In answer to the question, my Department has always worked, and will continue to work, closely with the Treasury on these roll-out plans. As we have made clear in a number of recent debates and answers to parliamentary questions, the Treasury has approved funding for the universal credit programme in 2013-14 and 2014-15, in line with the plan that I announced in December last year. These approvals are given by the Chief Secretary to the Treasury—such matters are delegated to him by the Chancellor—and are subject to rigorous controls, in line with the recommendations made last year by the National Audit Office.

It has always been the plan, as I set out last year, to secure agreement for universal credit in carefully controlled stages: first for singles, where we have agreed funding with the Treasury and are already rolling out in line with that agreement; then for couples, where we have agreed funding with the Treasury and are already rolling out in line with that agreement; and then for families, where we have recently secured agreement from the Treasury and will begin roll-out later this year. All this was confirmed by the Financial Secretary to the Treasury in an answer to a parliamentary question yesterday. That set of agreements confirms the approval of the strategic outline business case plans for this Parliament.

The final stage in this process, for which the logical point is now, has always been to approve and sign off the full business case covering the full, long lifetime of this programme, beyond this Parliament. We are in discussions over that, and it will eventually bring £35 billion of economic benefits to society. My right hon. Friend and I will, I am certain, approve that very soon.

[Chris Bryant]

That was a spectacular instance, as Sir Bob Kerslake might put it, of “beating about the bush”. It is a very simple question, to which the answer can only be yes or no: has the Department for Work and Pensions business case for the implementation of universal credit been approved by the Chancellor of the Exchequer? It is depressing that this Tory Minister and the Tory Prime Minister cannot tell the difference between an annual budget and a business case. It is pretty straightforward.

On 30 June, the employment Minister—who is disgracefully not answering for herself today—answered that question by saying:

“The Chief Secretary to the Treasury has approved the UC Strategic Outline Business Case plans for the remainder of this Parliament (2014-15) as per the ministerial announcement”.—[Official Report, 30 June 2014; Vol. 583, c. 434W.]

She was referring to the ministerial statement of 5 December, which explicitly runs up to 2017. On Monday, however, she had the carpet pulled from under her feet, as Sir Bob Kerslake answered exactly the same question with gratifying honesty, saying that

“it has not been signed off.”

It got worse yesterday when the Financial Secretary, answering the same question, said that all the Treasury has done is approve funding for the programme for another eight months, while a DWP spokesperson said that the Treasury has

“approved all funding to date”,

as if that was some grand vindication.

The same simple question has now been answered in eight contradictory ways. Not everybody can be telling the truth. There has been so much beating about the bush that it feels as if this House has been misled by a Government engaged in a deliberate act of deception. [Interruption.] The truth is that the Department is relying month by month on handouts from the national food bank. How ironic!

On 5 December 2013, the Secretary of State told the House that universal credit would bring

“a £38 billion economic benefit to society”.—[Official Report, 5 December 2013; Vol. 571, c. 65WS.]

I notice that he has just amended that figure to £35 billion. That figure is part of the business case. Has it been signed off by the Treasury, or is he just making things up?

The Secretary of State has told this House on 28 occasions that universal credit has always been on time and on budget; yet Sir Jeremy Heywood said on Monday that the Treasury and the Major Projects Authority had to tell the Secretary of State that his own project was “way off track”. When was he told that? Why did the Secretary of State not tell this House?

I will be honest: we would love to help the Secretary of State implement universal credit, but confession comes before redemption, and as long as he remains in denial he remains beyond help. I ask him once again to be straight with the House: has the business case—the business case, not the budget—for universal credit, which he says will come to fruition in 2017, been signed off—yes or no? [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. Just before the Secretary of State replies, I listened very carefully to what the hon. Gentleman said. He made no personal attack on any one individual. [Interruption.] Order. I will deal with this—the hon. Gentleman will have to accept my ruling, whether he likes it or not. The hon. Gentleman made no personal attack on any individual Minister, but my judgment, having heard him out, was that he went beyond the line in making an accusation of deliberate deception against a group of Ministers. [Interruption.] Order. I know what I am doing and I certainly do not require any help from the Education Secretary—that would be completely unimaginable. I ask Members to have regard to the way in which they express themselves. The point has been made, the situation is clear and the Secretary of State can now reply.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) made the most pompous, ludicrous statement I have ever heard. I know what he did: he wrote it down before he heard the answer. I have made it quite clear and I stand by what I said: the strategic outline business case plans for this Parliament have been approved. The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions, my right hon. Friend the Member for Wirral West (Esther McVey) made that clear the other day, and that is the statement that we stand by.

The next phase, as I said in my statement—the hon. Gentleman might like to listen to them in future—is approved. On the strategic outline business case for the overall lifetime of the programme, that is being discussed right now and we expect approval of that plan shortly. I have said categorically that all the expenditures and the work in this Parliament are approved. The reality is that it is approved. The point he needs to get round his head is that, on the figures he gave earlier—the billions—the National Audit Office, the Public Accounts Committee and the Work and Pensions Committee agree that we need careful controls in place. It is therefore natural that we have sought that approval at each stage. My right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary has approved all of those elements.

I know what this is all about. The truth is that this is about Labour’s failure to come to terms with welfare reform. We had a debate a week ago in which Labour crashed and burned, and we have an urgent question today. Labour Members want to avoid the reality that the Government’s welfare reforms are working and getting more people back to work. We have capped benefits so that no household can receive more than people who are in work. There are more people in work than ever before. Under Labour, youth unemployment increased by nearly a half; under this Government, the youth claimant count has fallen for the past 30 months. The rate of workless households is at its lowest since records began.

I say to the hon. Gentleman and the Labour party that this is the best instance of a man in an ill-fitting anorak dancing on the head of a pin. It is quite pathetic. He needs to think again about welfare reform.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the very worst example of how to change any tax and benefits system was the introduction of tax credits by the previous Government, when more than £6 billion of overpayments were made within just the first three years?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Absolutely. The Labour Government—the Labour party needs to own up to this—used to sign off business cases from day one, only to see the programme crash and burn. Tax credits left 400,000 people without money, and their reforms to the health service benefits system were an absolute disaster. We will take no lessons from Labour on how to manage a programme.

[Margaret Hodge (Barking) (Lab)]

As Chair of the Public Accounts Committee, I support the intent of the policy, but I have repeatedly sought assurances on the status of universal credit. On Monday, I asked Sir Jeremy Heywood, Sir Nick Macpherson and Sir Bob Kerslake four times whether the business case had been signed off by the Treasury. There were a number of unscripted pauses, but Sir Jeremy told us:

“I cannot speak for the Treasury.”

Sir Nick Macpherson told us:

“It is signed up, up to a point”,

before Bob Kerslake finally admitted:

“I think we should not beat about the bush. It has not been signed off.”

I plead with the Secretary of State that he should be open and honest with hon. Members rather than hide behind smoke and mirrors to create a false impression that universal credit is on time, in budget and delivering in full its intended objectives.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I respect the right hon. Lady enormously for the job she does, but I say to her clearly that it was on the recommendations of her Committee and the NAO that we instigated—by the way, I think this is the way ahead for all future programmes—a programme in which, at every stage and in every separate part of development, we would have approvals from the Treasury and with the Cabinet Office, which is what is going on at the moment. My point is that the answer that Mr Kerslake, the head of the civil service, gave was correct in the sense, as I have said today, that the overall strategic business case for the full lifetime of the programme is in discussion right now for that completion. However, all the elements that are relevant—the strategic business plan for this Parliament, which includes all the roll-out, all the investments, of which the right hon. Lady will be aware, and the roll-out through to the north-west—have been approved. There will be no further need for approvals this Parliament, so the reality is quite clear: universal credit is on track and is rolling against the plan we set out last year. All those approvals are agreed, and we hope that the final element, which would logically come at the end of the process, will be agreed shortly with the Chief Secretary.

[Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con)]

The Secretary of State has me convinced about the benefits of universal credit, but will he consider publishing the business case so that the House and the public outside can see the full benefits?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I am quite happy to deal with that. I have also said to the Chair of the Work and Pensions Committee that we are happy to talk through that. We have an invitation from the Committee to come in and discuss it.

[Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab)]

In April, the Work and Pensions Committee published a report on the progress of universal credit implementation, which said:

“DWP told us that it intended to clarify the impact of the changes to the implementation timetable on the overall costs and savings of the programme in the revised Business Case for Universal Credit, which it has now presented to the Treasury. We recommend that DWP makes its revised Business Case available to this Committee.”

Just two weeks ago, we got the Government response, which said that, no, they would not give us sight of the business case, but that some officials might talk us through it. For my Committee to be able to do our scrutiny role properly, that is not good enough. I join my colleague on the Select Committee, the hon. Member for Amber Valley (Nigel Mills) in making this plea: why will the Secretary of State not make the revised business case available to the Select Committee?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I have said to the hon. Lady that we are happy to sit down to discuss this matter with her. I remind her that no other Government have ever published business cases, but I am happy to consider what she asks.

[Mr Mark Hoban (Fareham) (Con)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that Opposition Members today have focused on process because they do not want to confront the reality that the welfare reforms that we have implemented successfully have helped to tackle unemployment—they have got more people into work—and that universal credit is essential in making it clear to people that work pays?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The reality is that our welfare reforms are working, and our pensions reforms are working. The truth is that the Opposition have absolutely nothing to say about any of this. Instead, they want to delve and delve into the detail, but that will not tell them anything. Universal credit—started by this Government—will be a great success: it will get more people into work, and it will secure more households with greater earnings.

[Mr Nicholas Brown (Newcastle upon Tyne East) (Lab)]

The head of the home civil service clearly has reservations about the full business case for the roll- out of universal credit. Which of those reservations has he expressed to the right hon. Gentleman?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The head of the home civil service has expressed no reservations, and I do not believe that he has any reservations about these plans. As agreed, the plans will be signed off with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, and when they are signed off, I hope that the hon. Member for Rhondda will write me a letter to say, “Thank you very much, indeed.”

[John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD)]

Does the Secretary of State agree that the Opposition would do a better job if, rather than asking picky bureaucratic questions, they focused on whether universal credit will improve pay for low-paid people and ensure that work pays?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The problem for the hon. Member for Rhondda is that his Government left behind a shambles in welfare—people unemployed, long-term unemployment rising, and youth unemployment rising dramatically—and there has never been an apology about that, or about crashing the economy.

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State’s problem is that on numerous occasions over the past three or four years he has given the House and the Select Committee on Work and Pensions different versions of events. He told us that the project was on track and on budget, and he stated to the Select Committee in February that the business case would be approved by April. What is actually going on with universal credit? In what sense is what people are claiming any different from jobseeker’s allowance? Does he know what happens to people whose circumstances change, and is this really universal credit at all?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I do know, actually. As we go along, we are developing universal credit correctly and stably, so that it rolls out properly. To repeat, we are rolling it out for singles in the whole of the north-west; couples development is now rolling out; and family developments are to come. Towards the end of this year, we will have rolled out universal credit to the north-west. I must say that that is the right way to do it: to make sure that what we produce is safe and delivers what we say it will, unlike tax credits and other problems that we got from the previous Government. I would like to know what the hon. Lady really thinks about the failure of her Government to deliver any programme correctly or safely.

[Stephen Barclay (North East Cambridgeshire) (Con)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that there is a central contradiction in the figures from the Opposition? When the PAC last looked at this issue, the Labour Chair said:

“We believe strongly that meeting any specific timetable…is less important than delivering the programme successfully.”

Is it not right that we learn the lessons of the programmes that went wrong under the last Government, and that we get the programme right, rather than rush it?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

That is exactly correct. That is why, when the right hon. Member for Barking (Margaret Hodge) stood up, I explained to her that we are now doing what the Committee asked for. We are rolling out universal credit carefully: at every check, we make sure with the Treasury and the Cabinet Office that what we are producing works, and the next phase is then approved. We have approved all the roll-out plans for this Parliament, as was said by the Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions, my right hon. Friend the Member for Wirral West. The strategic plan for this Parliament is exactly what the Chair of the PAC asked for, so we are giving her what she wants.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

Does the business plan include delivering universal credit in Wales through the medium of Welsh, and if so, is that on track and on budget?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The plan does include that. As the hon. Gentleman may or may not know, we are working on that to make sure it is deliverable, but the key is that we absolutely plan to do that.

[Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)]

May I urge the Secretary of State to reject the representations of Labour Members? When it comes to universal credit, all they have done throughout is seek to promote welfare over work at every turn. What will be the savings to the Exchequer and the benefits to the UK when it has been fully rolled out?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The NAO has come out with the figure of £35 billion, which I cited earlier, but the point is that I believe that universal credit is worth more than that. As well as the planning and implementation process, the work we are currently doing will also evaluate the net benefit to the Exchequer and taxpayers, which I believe will be even higher.

[Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State goes on about his record on benefits, but I remind him about the disaster of his PIP—the personal independent payment. Have Treasury Ministers or officials at any time expressed concerns about the financial viability of the business case to him, his Ministers or his civil servants?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

No.

[Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con)]

Will my right hon. Friend confirm that the forecast savings to the taxpayer are about £100 million in this financial year, and will be about £200 million in the coming tax year?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I can confirm that.

[Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)]

The confusion around the business case will give succour to those in Northern Ireland who have blocked welfare reform and cost the Northern Ireland economy millions of pounds. Will the Secretary of State give us some indication of whether discussions on the business case to date have shown any reasons why there might not be a further roll-out of universal credit as he has planned, so that we can argue back against those in Northern Ireland who say that we should wait to see the full picture in England and Wales before doing anything in Northern Ireland?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

There have not been any such discussions, and I hope that he will take that argument back to his counterparts in Northern Ireland and try again to persuade them that the full welfare reform package will benefit Northern Ireland dramatically, as will the universal credit part of that reform.

[Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con)]

It is worth remembering that the tax credit disaster meant that £6 billion was overpaid in the first three years of its operation. Does my right hon. Friend agree that when implementing so crucial a change, it is right and proper to take time and to implement it stage by stage?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Duncan Smith]

What my hon. Friend says is exactly the point I have been making, but which Opposition Members just do not understand. There were too many disasters under their watch; we do not intend to repeat them. We are doing the implementation exactly as the PAC and the NAO recommended.

[Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab)]

Once again, I am absolutely staggered at the Secretary of State’s hubris; there are more cover-ups, and everybody else is to blame apart from the Secretary of State. This has been an absolutely unmitigated disaster. UC is dead in the water, and he should go.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

That is pretty much what the hon. Lady says whenever she stands up on any question to do with welfare. The reality is that she is opposed to absolutely everything that we have done. If it was left to her and some of her colleagues on the Select Committee, they would repeal everything we have done, and welfare would be in the sort of chaos that Labour Members left us when they left Government.

[David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)]

The Secretary of State may have seen Labour’s recent four-point plan for universal credit. Points 3 and 4 amount to significant uncosted scope increases, with no benefits applied to them. Given that, does he agree that it might be better for Labour to stay off the whole subject of business cases?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I agree with my hon. Friend. The truth is that the Opposition do not want to talk about any of their welfare proposals because all of them would cost more money and deliver less. If we were to apply a business case to the Opposition, they would not exist any more.

[Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab)]

Will the Secretary of State look at the interesting report by Sheffield Hallam university on the state of the coalfields? It shows that although the welfare reforms might be working in some parts of the country, they are certainly not working in Wales. In the south Wales area that I represent, the share of pensioners living in poverty is about double that in the south-east of England. Welfare reform is anticipated to have a more substantial impact on the average financial loss per adult of working age in south Wales than across Britain as a whole. It is important to look at the variations within the UK, and I would be grateful if he gave them some attention.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The right hon. Lady knows that I respect her hugely. I am very happy to look at the points that she raises. In Wales, we inherited a peculiarly difficult problem. There were very high levels of unemployment and a very high number of people on incapacity benefit. I believe that our reforms are working. We have seen unemployment fall dramatically and employment levels rise in Wales. Is there more that we can do? Absolutely. My door is open and I would be very happy to discuss anything that she thinks we could do.

[Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con)]

The hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) suggesting that he would like to help the Secretary of State implement universal credit is a bit like his friend, President Putin, offering to help the Ukrainians with their elections—and, I should think, almost as welcome. Does my right hon. Friend agree that when the business case has been signed off, we can get back to what really matters, which is discussing how we can allow my constituents who are offered jobs to work as many hours as they like without having to worry about whether they will lose more in benefits than they will gain in salary?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

My hon. Friend is exactly right. That is what universal credit will deliver, and that is why delivering universal credit safely and securely is the key to the plan. The approvals have been signed off. All the work that is being done in this Parliament is approved by the Treasury, and the long-term strategic business case should be approved very shortly as well.

[Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab)]

Free school meals are an incredibly important part of the benefits system. A number of teachers have said that some children come back after the summer break noticeably thinner. The Secretary of State promised an announcement on which universal credit recipients would be entitled to free school meals by summer 2011. What is the reason for the long delay, and when will that announcement be made?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The Department for Education is making a decision about the best way to deliver free school meals. People who are eligible for free school meals will be eligible for them under the new arrangements. This is an opportunity to ensure that all those who really need free school meals actually get them. There are often problems in the existing system, so this is an opportunity to reform the system to improve the take-up and the accuracy.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

We have seen Parliament at its best over the past two days. There were a couple of points of order yesterday and there is an urgent question today. I say gently to the shadow Minister, who is one of the best shadow Ministers, that he went over the top. The Secretary of State has come to the House and answered the question. It is a shame that the shadow Minister did not listen to the answer before commenting. Does the Secretary of State not think that he has one of the best teams in Parliament, and that his Ministers are of the highest integrity? If one of them had made a mistake, they would have come to the Dispatch Box and apologised.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions, my right hon. Friend the Member for Wirral West, and others have not made mistakes. We have been crystal clear about this matter. I stand by the words that have been used and the statements that have been made, as I said earlier. The hon. Member for Rhondda normally does not listen, but just says what he was going to say, regardless of the answer. I suspect that a conversation with him is a very one-way process.

[Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)]

I have been absolutely staggered to hear the Secretary of State defending a system that, as I have heard repeatedly at the Public Accounts Committee, has had very poor planning from day one and at subsequent stages. We are glad that there is a plan to get it back on track, but let us get back to the real question. The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions, the right hon. Member for Wirral West (Esther McVey), came to this House and said that the business case had been signed off. Either she is not on top of her brief or she was misleading this House, neither of which inspires confidence.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I will give two answers. First, the Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions, my right hon. Friend the Member for Wirral West, stated what is factually correct: that the strategic business plans for this Parliament have all been approved. That is an absolute fact. Secondly, it was I who was not happy with the way the development was taking place nearly two years ago, and who instigated the first process through my red team report. That is correct and I stand by that. Working with the Cabinet Office, we changed the plan. The plan is now being delivered exactly as the Public Accounts Committee, on which the hon. Lady sits, wanted us to deliver it, with all the necessary checks and balances. I would have thought, therefore, that she would congratulate us.

[Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con)]

Companies in the north-east provide some of the computer and IT support for universal credit, providing welcome jobs there. I have met the staff at those institutions, and they are committed to the project, which is getting people back into work and training, and they are supportive of the slow, careful and measured way in which we are rolling out universal credit, which, after all, is something that the whole House supports.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Again, we hear reason from the Government Benches. My hon. Friend is absolutely right. It is necessary to roll out the programme carefully so that it works, and so that we do not end up, as we did with tax credits, with 400,000 people not getting any money and going off to food banks and getting food parcels. That is the shambles that the Labour party created. We will not repeat it.

[Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State said a moment ago from the Dispatch Box that we should be congratulating him. I remind him that only a few months ago his Cabinet colleague, the Paymaster General, was giving television interviews saying that the implementation of universal credit had been “lamentable” and that a lot of money had been “wasted”. We have also learned of friction between the Cabinet Office and the Department for Work and Pensions over the withdrawal of the Government Digital Service. Leaked documents at the time said that the DWP might not be

“able to obtain the skills required to replace GDS within the current market at affordable cost”.

Will the Secretary of State tell us how much additional taxpayers’ money has been spent on IT support systems since the GDS was withdrawn?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

There is no additional money. All the money has been budgeted for. The hon. Gentleman said that we would not be able to hire people; we have hired a dramatic number of digital experts. They are working in the Department right now to develop the digital option. He is more than welcome to come and see them and talk to them if he likes. The door is open; we have nothing to hide. If he does accept that invitation, perhaps he will also persuade his hon. Friends to visit the IT. They do not want to visit it because they are pretending that it does not work.

[Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con)]

When my hon. Friend the Member for Harrogate and Knaresborough (Andrew Jones) and I went to the Harrogate jobcentre recently, universal credit recipients were passionate about the confidence that the new scheme is giving them to get a job, and recruiters were persuasive about how it is making it easier to place people in jobs. Will the Secretary of State ignore the hue and cry from the Labour party and focus on the benefits that universal credit is bringing to the lives of real people?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I always make it my priority to ignore the nonsense that comes from the other side. The Opposition live in la-la land when it comes to the welfare reforms. My hon. Friend is absolutely right that this is about real people who are trying to get back to work. We are delivering for them right now, and we will deliver even more when universal credit arrives safely and securely.

[Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

On Monday, I received an e-mail from the Secretary of State’s office telling me that he would be visiting Wrexham on Monday afternoon. Every week, I meet constituents in Wrexham who are suffering from his incompetence. The only person who is running away from conversations about benefits is the Secretary of State. Will he meet me to hear what is happening in Wrexham in respect of personal independence payments, universal credit and all the other benefits that are falling apart?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I accept that the hon. Gentleman needed to plan that statement. I did visit Wrexham the other day and the jobcentre there. It has a phenomenally dedicated group of people who are doing brilliantly. As a result, unemployment levels in his area are falling. They are falling as a direct result of the welfare reforms that we have brought in. I only wish that he had said the same thing to the last Government. My door is always open. If he wants to come and talk to me about any problem, I will be very happy to see him.

[Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con)]

May I thank my right hon. Friend for the open and frank way in which he has responded to questions about the business plan? Does he agree that the Opposition’s role in questioning business plans is important, and would he like to encourage them to be a bit more zealous in questioning the business plan for High Speed 2?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

My hon. Friend always tries to tempt me, but I will resist that temptation and say that he needs to raise that matter with other Ministers who will no doubt come to the Dispatch Box.

[Mr Speaker]

Plenty of people raise it with me, including people who live in Swanbourne.

--- Later in debate ---

[Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State needs to understand that when we ask questions in the House, we expect frank, honest and accurate answers from the Government, but that is not what we have had. He suggests that Sir Bob Kerslake did not know what he was talking about when he gave his answers to the Public Accounts Committee. Will Sir Bob Kerslake correct the record, or are we being misled again?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I have been absolutely clear—I do not think I could have been clearer—that the strategic business plans for this Parliament have all been approved. [Interruption.] Would the hon. Gentleman like to let me finish? What Sir Bob Kerslake was referring to was the overarching full roll-out, including the years beyond this Parliament. I have already said that I and the Chief Secretary to the Treasury are about to finalise that, as approved.

[Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)]

The Secretary of State has to accept that there have been valid concerns behind all the questions that have been asked about the feasible delivery of universal credit. There is also real confusion about the differing answers that have been given. Those concerns extend to Northern Ireland, where people are concerned about the implications for hard-pressed families and for local and regional economies. Given the question mark against the overall business case, is it right for the Assembly to be brow-beaten by the Treasury, through threats of cuts to other budgets, into passing the karaoke Bill that would legislate for universal credit?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I believe that the welfare reforms that the Assembly is being asked to pass, which include universal credit, are right. They are already delivering for the rest of the UK, and I believe that there will be net value to Northern Ireland when it rolls them out. I hope that it gets on and does it, and universal credit will be part of that.

Bill Presented

Local Government (Independence) Bill

Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)

Chris Ruane, on behalf of Mr Graham Allen, presented a Bill to define the independence of local government; to regulate the relationship between local and central government in England by means of a statutory Code; to require public authorities to act in compliance with the Code; to provide that the Code may only be amended by means of an Order under the super-affirmative procedure, approved unanimously by each House of Parliament or by a majority in each House equal to or greater than two-thirds of the number of seats in each House; to exclude any Bill to amend this Act from the provisions of the Parliament Act 1911; to make provision regarding the powers and finances of local government in England; and for connected purposes.

Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 5 September, and to be printed (Bill 72).