ECOFIN
George Osborne Excerpts(13 years ago)
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The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne)
The Economic and Financial Affairs Council will be held in Brussels on 8 November 2011. The Chancellor will attend. The following items will be discussed:
Financial Transaction Taxes (FTTs)
The Commission will present its proposal on FTTs and ask for preliminary comments from member states. The tax would be levied on all transactions in financial instruments by financial institutions when at least one party to the transaction is located in the EU. Trading in shares, bonds and money market instruments would be taxed at a rate of 0.1% and derivative contracts at a rate of 0.01% on the notional value of the transaction. The Government do not support the Commission’s proposal; as it stands, it would have significant negative impacts on jobs and growth. I will continue to make clear that, to avoid relocation of trading, any FTT would need to apply in all financial centres (that is, not just the EU).
Energy Taxation Directive (ETD)
Depending on progress at officials’ level, Finance Ministers will hold an orientation debate on the ETD. The Commission published its proposal on this issue in April. Its stated aim is to bring EU rules on the taxation of energy products further into line with the EU’s energy and climate change objectives. The proposal would require member states to tax energy products by taking into account both CO2 emissions and energy content. The Government believe that revision of the ETD should focus on reviewing EU minimum levels of taxation, and do not support a mandatory EU-level carbon tax. In line with the principle of subsidiarity, member states should also retain the absolute right to set national duty rates on different types of energy products, as long as these are above EU-wide minimum rates of taxation. The presidency has drafted “orientations” to guide future work on the file, which are in line with the Government’s priorities in this area.
Follow-up to the October European Council, 23 October
ECOFIN will discuss the outcomes of the European Council, where leaders discussed the immediate challenges posed by the financial crisis, and agreed on measures to secure sustainable and job-creating growth. They also set the EU’s position for the G20 summit, giving top priority to maintaining financial stability and restoring growth, and discussed preparations for the Durban conference on climate change.
Follow-up to the G20 summit, 3-4 November in Cannes
The presidency will report on the G20 leaders’ summit held in Cannes on 3-4 November. The Council will discuss the outcomes from the summit, including: the
global economy and international monetary system; financial regulation; energy commodities and agriculture; and development. The session is also expected to look ahead to the Mexican presidency of the G20 in 2012, including where additional work is required in the G20 and EU to make further progress.
Financial assistance to Greece—disbursement of next instalment
Given the current situation in Greece, it is unlikely that this will remain on the ECOFIN agenda. After the referendum announcement, euro area countries and the IMF made clear they would not disburse the next instalment of the Greek financial assistance programme, which euro area countries had informally agreed to disburse on 26 October. While the referendum now seems to be off the table, the situation in Greece is still fluid, and euro area countries might want to hold off disbursement until Greece is able to commit to the second financial assistance programme also agreed on 26 October. The UK Government will not be part of any decision on the disbursement. However, it is extremely important for the euro area to implement the comprehensive package agreed on 26 October, and that the other elements are not delayed as a consequence of the situation in Greece.
Economic governance—surveillance of macro-economic imbalances: design of the “scoreboard”
The Council will discuss draft Council conclusions on a scoreboard for assessing macro-economic imbalances. The scoreboard will be a new monitoring mechanism under the excessive imbalances procedure, and a key part of a more effective European semester. The Government support measures designed to help restore and maintain macro-economic stability in the EU.
Preparation of the 17th Conference of Parties (COP-17) of the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change (UNFCCC) in Durban, South Africa
ECOFIN will discuss draft climate finance conclusions which endorse the EU’s “fast start finance report” setting out the EU’s contributions in 2011. The conclusions will also consider the report to the G20 on long-term sources of finance, which was led by the World Bank. The Government support the further development of the EU’s position in advance of the UNFCCC negotiations in Durban.
Annual Meeting of EU and European Free Trade Association (EFTA) Economy and Finance Ministers
This meeting will take place over breakfast, before the formal ECOFIN begins. It will focus on improving regulation in order to secure financial stability, where the Government’s priority is to have robust, internationally consistent regulatory standards that will benefit the economy in the long run. It will also be an opportunity to exchange views on respective strategies in the current macro-economic environment in Europe, where the Government believe the priority is to achieve fiscal consolidation and lay the foundations for growth.
Oral Answers to Questions
George Osborne Excerpts(13 years ago)
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Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
1. What assessment he has made of the potential effects on UK interests of the creation of an economic government of the Eurozone.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne)
We have had positive gross domestic product numbers this morning, but the biggest single boost to the British economy this autumn would be a lasting resolution of the euro crisis. Such a resolution requires, among many other things, greater fiscal integration within the eurozone as it follows the remorseless logic of monetary union. We have made it clear that Britain will not be part of that fiscal integration, and that issues affecting Britain, such as the single market and financial services regulation, must continue to be decided at EU level.
Dr Lewis
If the Liberal Democrats had had their way, we would have joined the euro with disastrous consequences. Now, the liberal Conservatives are advising us to support fiscal union in the eurozone, which will lead to economic union and a single government. How does my right hon. Friend really feel about a policy undermining the system of democratic states in Europe that gave the continent peace for more than half a century?
Mr Osborne
Those who were against Britain joining the euro, including my hon. Friend and me, were against it partly because we felt that it would lead to greater fiscal integration. That was one of the arguments for keeping Britain out. There is a remorseless logic driving monetary union towards greater fiscal integration, but it is in Britain’s overwhelming economic national interest to have stability in the eurozone, so I think that that fiscal integration is part of what is required. Of course, we have to ensure that Britain’s interests are protected, that we are not part of that fiscal integration, and that issues such as the single market and financial regulation are conducted at the level of the 27.
Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)
The Chancellor talks a great deal about fiscal integration in the eurozone, but will he tell us precisely what he means by fiscal integration?
Mr Osborne
We shall see the 17 members of the euro attempting to co-ordinate their budget policies better, and more mutual surveillance, with sanctions, for those who do not do what has been agreed. I have to say that the confusion, if there is any, is in Labour’s policy, because it is now holding open the prospect of membership of the euro, which would be the ultimate fiscal and monetary integration.
Mr Andrew Tyrie (Chichester) (Con)
Does the Chancellor agree that it is wholly unacceptable that the rest of Europe should be held to ransom by Greece? What would be the consequences for the UK and the eurozone of a no vote in a Greek referendum?
Mr Osborne
There is no doubt that the decision by the Greek Prime Minister has added to the instability and uncertainty in the eurozone. We can see that today. We are trying to create stability and certainty in the eurozone. Ultimately, it is up to the Greek people and the Greek political system to decide how they make their decisions, but I believe that it is extremely important for the eurozone to implement the package that it agreed last week. I said at the time that that was crucial, as did everyone else involved. We need to get on with it, sooner rather than later.
Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)
Is not the truth that the Chancellor cannot urge any real action in the eurozone because he is stuck with a failed plan that has resulted in our economy bumping along the bottom? It will take more than him wearing a high-visibility jacket on the rolling news to put that right.
Mr Osborne
As I was saying, this morning we had the news that our GDP is growing by 0.5%—[Hon. Members: “Ooh!”] Well, GDP fell by about 6% when Labour was in office and when the right hon. Member for Morley and Outwood (Ed Balls) was advising the last Prime Minister. If we look at growth in France or Germany, the most recent figures show that it was either negative or growing at about 0.1%. The instability in the eurozone and the uncertainty in the world are having an effect on all western economies at the moment, and we have to sort that out, but that is not an excuse for Britain not to deal with its problems, which were created by that lot sitting over there.
Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con)
Will my right hon. Friend ensure, if he is not using our veto against more fiscal integration, that Britain gets something out of the deal? Do we not need the right to opt out of any past or future EU measure that could damage jobs and prosperity at home?
Mr Osborne
We have already extracted a price for the European Stability Mechanism treaty that the eurozone wants to put forward by getting ourselves out of the EU bail-out mechanism to which the last Government had committed us. We are working to keep the increase in the EU budget to a real freeze. In other words, we have, I think, proved in office that we can extract important concessions and in the case of the EU bail-out fund we have actually taken a power back to Britain. That will be the approach we take to future discussions and negotiations—putting Britain’s national interest first.
Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op)
Why did the Chancellor’s statement last Thursday about economic governance in the eurozone fail to mention the most important missing ingredient—a strategy for jobs and growth? Was it an accident or was it deliberate? He has been telling us all summer that Britain is a safe haven, yet growth is weak, unemployment is rising and construction and manufacturing are both contracting. What kind of safe haven is that?
Mr Osborne
First, may I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on keeping his job in the clear-out of the Labour Treasury Front-Bench team—although on the basis of that question, I am not sure why he did? The whole purpose of our negotiations in Europe and the whole purpose of what we are doing at home is to stabilise the British economy and set it on a path of growth and jobs. We inherited a situation where unemployment had rocketed under the Labour Government and we had the deepest recession of any country in the world, apart from Japan. We are rescuing that situation, and it is reflected in the very low interest rates paid in this country in comparison with all those other countries.
Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab)
2. What assessment he has made of the effects of the 2011 Budget on long-term unemployment.
Stuart Andrew (Pudsey) (Con)
3. What steps he is taking to reduce tax avoidance and evasion.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne)
We have made it clear that tax evasion is both illegal and immoral, and that this Government will not tolerate it. We are increasing the number of staff at Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs who are dedicated to tackling tax evasion and tax avoidance to 2,500. We also aim to increase the amount of tax collected by £7 billion, and, unlike the last Government, we have concluded a treaty with Switzerland to get back the money that individuals should have paid here in the United Kingdom.
Stuart Andrew
I have been contacted by a fair number of constituents who have expressed concern about tax avoidance. I welcome many of the measures that the Government have introduced to tackle this unfairness. Is the scope of the recent tax avoidance agreement between our Government and the Swiss likely to include cases in which tax is not paid by individuals who are tax-exiled in Switzerland, such as the widely reported case of Mr Andrew Rosenfeld?
Mr Osborne
Actually, you just have. You made him your general election strategist. However, I will not comment on the tax affairs of individuals, although I suspect that many will over the coming years.
David Miliband (South Shields) (Lab)
The Chancellor will remember, in his first Budget, fixing a target for debt
“to place our fiscal credibility beyond doubt”. —[Official Report, 22 June 2010; Vol. 512, c. 167.]
That target was for debt to be reduced by the end of the Parliament, but, according to figures from the Office for Budget Responsibility, it depends on economic growth of 2.8%. How far below 2.8% must growth fall for the Chancellor’s fiscal mandate and his fiscal credibility to be shot to pieces?
Mr Speaker
Order. The question refers to a reduction in tax avoidance and evasion.
Mr Osborne
Tackling tax evasion and avoidance—to which the question refers—will help us to reduce both the deficit and the debt. We have the fiscal mandate and the debt target. That has been independently verified by the Office for Budget Responsibility—which is in marked contrast to the situation when the right hon. Gentleman was in the Cabinet—and on 29 November it will provide its update.
Mr Gary Streeter (South West Devon) (Con)
Although we are all in favour of dealing with tax avoidance and evasion, are not some of the heavy-handed tactics used by HMRC to collect tax, including the imposition of late-payment penalties under the Labour Government, helping to stifle some growth in small and medium-sized businesses? Will the Chancellor examine the position to ensure that HMRC is being fair?
Mr Osborne
Of course we always want HMRC to approach things in a proportionate manner, and it certainly handles large companies and their tax bills better than it did several years ago. However, we must collect the tax that is owed. That is a very important principle at any time, and it is particularly important at a time when we are all having to make difficult decisions in our attempts to reduce the budget deficit. We will not tolerate tax evasion, and we do apply penalties to people who do not pay their tax on time.
Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab)
The Chancellor is talking a good game, and yesterday the Exchequer Secretary announced the establishment of an “affluent unit” to tackle tax avoidance. For the sake of clarity, I should add that that is not a pet name for the Tory Front Bench, but a department in HMRC. However, the £900 million is not new money. It is not additional, and nor are the 200 staff. Is not the reality that the Government are more interested in offering tax breaks to the wealthiest than in tackling tax avoidance?
Mr Osborne
This is the Government who have introduced additional charges for long-staying non-doms; Labour had 13 years in which to do that, but they did not. This is the Government who have concluded a tax treaty with Switzerland; the previous Government had an opportunity to do that—[Interruption.] Well, this is what a Europe Minister in the last Government said:
“Swiss…deal offered to HMG…more than decade ago but GB turned it down thus losing billions in revenue”.
They had 13 years to deal with tax avoidance and evasion. We are dealing with it now, while they must account for their new general election strategist.
Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab)
4. What assessment he has made of the effects of the 2011 Budget on unemployment amongst women.
Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con)
5. What recent estimate he has made of the size of the structural deficit.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne)
The estimate is that the structural deficit for this year will be 5.3% of GDP, which is down from the record 8.9% in the last year of the previous Government, with it having been the highest in the G7 before the crisis. Of course, these estimates are now provided independently by the Office for Budget Responsibility, rather than being fiddled by the close advisers of the Chancellor and the Prime Minister, as used to happen.
Damian Hinds
Other countries face fierce criticism for their tardiness in addressing not only their immediate deficit, but their growing medium and long-term liabilities. How is progress in that regard for the British Government?
Mr Osborne
We are bringing the deficit down from the record levels that we inherited, which has in part provided stability in the financial markets for sterling and our interest rates. That has been absolutely crucial, as we can see in the very high interest rates faced by not just Greece and Portugal, but now even by countries such as Italy and France, which face significantly higher interest rates than we do. That is of course a huge boost to the British economy.
Graeme Morrice (Livingston) (Lab)
Does the Chancellor think that rising unemployment and growth of just 0.5% in 12 months will make it easier or harder to get the deficit down?
Mr Osborne
This morning’s GDP numbers are a positive step, but of course the British economy has a difficult road to travel from the very high debts—the record debts—that we inherited. That is made more difficult by the international situation, as people can plainly see today, but we are determined to make that journey to the growth and prosperity that this country was so lacking under the previous Government.
Mark Garnier (Wyre Forest) (Con)
6. What recent discussions he has had on social impact bonds.
Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central) (Lab)
T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne)
The core purpose of the Treasury is to ensure the stability of the economy, promote growth and employment, reform banking and manage the public finances so that Britain lives within her means.
Tony Lloyd
Will one of the Treasury Ministers confirm that public sector workers who work part-time earning less than £15,000 will still pay the 3% income tax? Is this fair, and should not the Government negotiate in good faith, and not simply try to ram this through?
Mr Osborne
The Chief Secretary will shortly set out the full details of our pension offer to the public sector. When people see it, they will see that it is fair to the public sector—people in the public sector will get a much more generous pension than is available in almost any part of the private sector—but it is also fair to the taxpayers. It is, of course, based on the work of John Hutton, a former Labour Pensions Secretary.
Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) (Con)
T3. Labour-controlled Blackburn with Darwen council has abandoned pensioners and schoolchildren in my constituency because of a £10,000 bus cut, but it can still find £94,500 to fund trade union officials. Does my right hon. Friend think it is right that the taxpayer picks up the tab for trade union officials?
Mr Osborne
In central Government we have announced that we are reducing the facility time, as it is called, in the civil service because we do not think it is fair that taxpayers should be paying for so many full-time trade union officials. Obviously, it is up to Blackburn with Darwen council to decide how it spends its council tax payers’ money, but from what my hon. Friend is telling me, it does not look as if the council is spending it particularly well.
Ed Balls (Morley and Outwood) (Lab/Co-op)
Today’s figures have shown that the British economy has grown over the past 12 months, since the Chancellor’s spending review, by just 0.5%, and Treasury officials have apparently admitted to the BBC this afternoon that the economy is now set to worsen. The IMF says that if the British economy continues to undershoot, the Chancellor should change course to boost growth and jobs. How much longer does the country have to wait before the Chancellor will finally listen?
Mr Osborne
I welcome the right hon. Gentleman back from America. We missed him in our debates last week—even though, by some coincidence, the tone of the debate markedly improved. We have been keeping an eye on what he was saying while he was in America. This is what he told American television: “What the world needs are balanced plans on deficit reduction, and you can’t duck that.” In America he has to say that so that he is not laughed out of the TV studio. Here he not only ducks deficit reduction; he runs away from it. We are clearing up the mess that he left when he was running Britain’s economic policy for 13 years.
Ed Balls
I am afraid people watching this will think that was a deeply complacent answer. Today’s figures mean that the Chancellor’s figures for growth will be downgraded. They will undershoot the OECD and the IMF growth forecast as well. He tried to blame the eurozone, but the fact is that our recovery was choked off a year ago. Families watching this programme and struggling with their bills, businesses on the edge and young people losing their jobs will all think the Chancellor is completely out of touch. Why does he not understand that if we are to get the deficit down, the country needs a plan for growth and jobs, and it needs it now? How much longer will we have to put up with this prevarication before it is too late, and the Chancellor finally acts?
Mr Osborne
The GDP numbers showed this morning that the British economy is growing, and that is positive news. But of course we have a difficult journey to take, from the deepest recession of our lifetimes and the biggest banking crisis in British history, which the right hon. Gentleman presided over when the Labour party was in government—and it is made more difficult by what is happening elsewhere in the world. [Interruption.] Of course that is the case, which is why the growth figures in the British economy are similar to the growth figures in the American economy, or the French economy, or the German economy.
Mr Osborne
The right hon. Gentleman shakes his head, but in 2011 the British economy has grown at exactly the same rate as the United States economy. It has taken a completely different course from the one that he suggested as shadow Chancellor and yet it has the same growth, which shows that what we are doing is bringing stability to the British economy. Frankly, for him to get up every week and say that we need a deficit reduction plan, but not to give us any details, shows how hopelessly out of touch he is.
Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
T4. If the Greeks can have a referendum on Europe, why can’t we?
Mr Osborne
What the Greek Prime Minister has apparently offered the Greek people is a referendum on difficult decisions required to get the budget deficit down. That is what he is talking about. We talked about these things in advance of a general election. Two parties here talked about those difficult decisions. We got elected, we are in government and we are now doing it, and we are recovering from the deep mess that the Labour party left us in.
Mr David Crausby (Bolton North East) (Lab)
T2. Will the Chancellor intervene to prevent directors’ pay from increasing by another 49% this year? Or if he is not willing to intervene, will he at least explain to those suffering cuts in pay and the loss of their jobs, just how we are all in this together?
Mr Osborne
I have made it very clear, and the Prime Minister has made it very clear, that at all levels of society people have to be mindful of the current economic situation, and that includes highly paid directors and people working for the financial services. Bonuses are significantly lower than they were under the Government whom the hon. Gentleman supported, and we are also introducing measures to encourage transparency in pay, and to give shareholders greater control over executive pay as well.
Mr Douglas Carswell (Clacton) (Con)
T5. Is my right hon. Friend aware of the TaxPayers Alliance’s excellent report published last week on abolishing national insurance and merging national insurance with income tax? Does he believe that the merger of national insurance and income tax would be a good way to simplify tax in the way that he promised, and will he make it happen?
Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op)
T8. What does the Chancellor say to the Federation of Small Businesses, which describes his policies as too timid, and out of touch with the sluggishness of the UK’s economy?
Mr Osborne
The FSB, like many other business organisations, has supported what we have done to try to get the deficit down—and of course it also welcomes the fact that not only did we reverse the increase that the Labour Government planned in the small companies rate, but we have also been able to reduce the small companies rate and freeze business rates for another year.
Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD)
T6. Does the Minister agree that new plans for the Government to lend directly to small businesses and start-ups through credit easing will be beneficial to the economy and will create more jobs? Will the Minister also give me examples of how that will be put into practice?
Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)
T9. Youth unemployment now stands at a shocking 34% in Tameside and 23% in Stockport. Is not the right thing to do to listen to Labour’s five-point jobs plan, get the bank bonus tax reinstated and invest in 100,000 jobs for young people?
Mr Osborne
In his pitch for a job, the hon. Gentleman failed to mention that youth unemployment rose by more than 40% under the Labour Government. There is complete amnesia about the fact that 16 months ago they left this country with high unemployment, a high budget deficit, the deepest recession this country has seen in the last 100 years, and the biggest banking crisis in our history.
Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)
T7. Some of the most needy children in the Vale of Glamorgan and across the UK will benefit from today onwards from the Government’s junior ISA. That presents an opportunity to return to a culture of savings among families. What plans have the Government to develop that further?
Mr Osborne
We have indeed announced today the launch of the junior ISA, which will enable many millions of parents to save for their children up to £3,600 a year tax free. It should help more than 6 million children who will be eligible for it immediately and many more as they are born and grow up. It is all about trying to foster a savings culture after the age of irresponsibility and the culture of debt that we saw over the past decade.
Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)
T10. I can assure the Chancellor of the Exchequer that I am not looking for a job—unlike many of my constituents. He talked earlier about fiscal integration. Does he agree that the possibility of a differential rate of corporation tax within the United Kingdom contains severe dangers?
Mr Osborne
As the hon. Gentleman well knows, we are consulting on the possibility of introducing a different corporation tax rate in Northern Ireland, reflecting the fact that the Irish Republic has a much lower corporation tax rate. The consultation is ongoing, and we are of course in discussions with the Northern Ireland Executive. We are clear that Northern Ireland would have to bear the cost of that in forgone revenues, and an important part of the discussions will be working out what exactly those forgone revenues would be.
Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD)
I am concerned by reports that the Government are considering breaking with the 20-year convention of uprating pensions and benefits by the September inflation figure, now that the CPI has come in at 5.2%. Does the Chancellor recognise that it would be unfair to change the rules of the game suddenly, hurting vulnerable pensioners and disabled people in the process?
Mr Osborne
We are absolutely committed to the triple lock that we introduced on pensions so that they rise by CPI, earnings or 2.5%, whichever is greater. That is one of the really significant achievements of this Government, which two parties came together to create, and I think that it is something we can be very proud of.
Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)
May I tell the Chancellor that what is happening in the economy reminds me very much of the havoc and destruction caused by the Thatcher Government in the 1980s, with mass unemployment and poverty? Is it not perfectly understandable why many people are protesting against the sheer injustice, including those who are protesting, and rightly so, outside St Paul’s?
Mr Osborne
Again, there is absolutely no recognition that the Government the hon. Gentleman supported presided over the second deepest recession in the entire world. What is the Opposition’s explanation for that? Why was Britain so badly affected? Why was the British economy so unbalanced? Why had the gap between the rich and the poor grown? Why had manufacturing halved as a share of GDP? They have absolutely no answers on Labour’s record in office.
Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con)
Will the Chancellor, or the Economic Secretary to the Treasury, expand on the advantages that the Warton local enterprise zone in my constituency will bring to businesses, particularly from tax breaks and improved planning rules?
Mr Osborne
I am very pleased that we were able to announce that additional enterprise zone for my hon. Friend’s constituents, which reflects the fact that the cut in the US defence budget had an impact on BAE Systems. I am glad that we were able to move quickly to create an enterprise zone, not only in the north-west but in east Yorkshire, to take into account the impact of that decision.
Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op)
If the Government’s overriding priority is to eliminate the deficit by the end of this Parliament, why is the Chancellor having to borrow an additional £46 billion during that period?
Mr Osborne
We inherited the highest—[Interruption.] The Opposition do not want to hear this. We inherited the highest budget deficit in Britain’s peacetime history. That budget deficit is now coming down, and that has contributed to financial stability in this country, in marked contrast with what we see on our television screens around Europe.
Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con)
Will my right hon. Friend pass on the message to the Deputy Prime Minister, with his accusations that Conservatives who advocate repatriation and renegotiation are committing economic suicide, that we are facing not only a disastrous two-tier Europe, but now also a two-tier Government?
Mr Osborne
Of course I do not agree with my hon. Friend on this occasion. The coalition Government have been able to get Britain out of the European Union bail-out that we found ourselves in when we came to office. We have been able to keep the budget increases down—again, in marked contrast with what we found on coming into office. We must now have some serious negotiations to make sure that Britain’s interests are protected in Europe, as the remorseless logic of monetary union—I am sure that he accepts this—leads to greater fiscal integration among eurozone countries. That is the reality of the situation facing us, and I think Britain under this Government will be able to negotiate well in our national interest.
Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)
If the Chancellor cannot bring himself to extend the national insurance holiday to small and micro-businesses because the shadow Chancellor suggested it, will that be easier now that the CBI is also recommending it?
Mr Osborne
The CBI has been absolutely staunch in its defence of our deficit reduction plan, and says that it is crucial for business confidence. If the shadow Chancellor wants to make proposals to increase spending and borrowing, which he is perfectly entitled to do, why does he not also make proposals to cut Government spending and to get the budget deficit down? He talks about providing a medium-term deficit reduction plan, but we have not heard one single line item of it.
Stephen Williams (Bristol West) (LD)
Whatever one thinks of the tactics of those who are camping outside St Paul’s and in the middle of my constituency, one issue that they are raising that resonates with the British public is the feeling that people are not paying their fair share of tax. Will my right hon. Friend update us on what progress we are making across the House, particularly on lifetime loans—disguised remuneration?
Mr Osborne
My hon. Friend raises a good point. At a time like this, people want to make sure that everyone pays their fair share of tax. We have taken action on the situation in Switzerland and on long-stay non-doms, but he raises a third point about disguised remuneration. That is a way in which people, often in financial services, get away with a much lower rate of tax. Guess who in the House voted against that action? The Labour party.
Eurozone Crisis
George Osborne Excerpts(13 years ago)
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The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne)
I wanted to update the House as early as possible on developments in the eurozone overnight, and in the absence of the Prime Minister as he travels to the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting, to report on the good progress made at yesterday’s European Council.
The crisis in the eurozone has caused instability in financial markets, has greatly undermined confidence around the world, and is having a chilling effect on economic growth in many countries, including our own. It is in our overwhelming national interest that a coherent, comprehensive and lasting solution to the eurozone’s problems is found, because the decisive resolution of this crisis would provide the single biggest boost to the British economy this autumn, and the break-up of the euro would be the single greatest threat to our prosperity.
Our view about how to solve the eurozone’s immediate problems has been clear, consistent and forcefully expressed. The Prime Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister and I have set it out to the House on a number of occasions: reinforcement, recapitalisation and resolution. First, eurozone member states need to reinforce their bail-out fund to create a firewall; secondly, weak European banks need to be recapitalised; and thirdly, the unsustainable position of Greece’s debts needs to be resolved. But if the solution is to last, as I said many months ago, members of the eurozone also need to address the logic of monetary union by pursuing greater fiscal integration within the eurozone, while at the same time we protect Britain’s interests.
We have to improve competitiveness: competitiveness in the peripheral economies of the eurozone as measured against the core economies such as Germany, and competitiveness across the whole European continent versus the rest of the world. This is the solution of the crisis that we have been advocating for months, and the solution again advocated by the Prime Minister at yesterday’s European Council.
Our view is that last night very good progress was made towards solving the immediate crisis—very good progress on all fronts. The deal put together is much better than was expected yesterday afternoon. But much detail remains unresolved, and having put pressure on the eurozone to get this far, we have to keep up the pressure to get the details completed. It has started down the right road; now it must finish the job.
Let me take each element of last night’s deal in turn and say how it affects Britain. First, on recapitalising banks, we are pleased that the European Council agreed to the proposal hammered out by myself and other Finance Ministers at the weekend ECOFIN. All major European banks will be required to hold at least a 9% core tier 1 capital ratio by the end of June next year, including marking to market all their exposure to sovereign debt. The European Banking Authority, based here in London, assessed that achieving this target means that banks will require an extra €106 billion of capital, and the Council yesterday confirmed that if this cannot be raised privately, Governments will have to step up to the plate.
I can confirm to the House today that in the assessment of the European Banking Authority and our own tripartite authorities, no British bank requires additional capital. This is an important expression of confidence in this country’s banking system at a time of global financial stress. EU member states also agreed to co-ordinate guarantees of term funding, should they be required, and we have ensured that state aid rules will be applied properly, and European banks will be restructured if necessary, just as the European Commission demanded of the last British Government two years ago.
While some would have wanted an even tougher banking agreement, and even more capital going into Europe’s weak banks, we should welcome what has been achieved with this agreement. We now have—unlike the totally inadequate stress tests of last year—a commitment to significant extra resources for the European banking system. However, the UK and others insisted that that commitment from the whole of the European Union on banking be conditional on the two other key components of the solution to the crisis that I set out: a reinforced firewall and a resolution of Greek debt. These are both properly matters for the Eurozone, not the UK—and they are both matters on which progress was also made last night.
On Greece, a headline agreement was reached to reduce the Greek debt-to-GDP ratio to 120% by 2020. The eurozone will contribute an additional €30 billion. Because the British Government have made sure that we are not part of the Greek bail-out, none of that extra €30 billion will come from our taxpayers, while private holders of Greek sovereign debt will be asked to accept a nominal write-down of 50%. A lot more work is needed to put all this into practice, including detailed negotiations with the private sector—but we said that Greece’s debts were unsustainable, and we are pleased to see a resolution in sight.
On reinforcing the size of the firewall, the eurozone has set out two options that could operate in tandem. One is to provide, from the bail-out fund, insurance on new debt issued by Eurozone countries; the second is to create special purpose vehicles that can attract resources from private and public investors. In its statement, the eurozone said that
“the leverage effect of both options will vary”
but that they could be
“expected to yield around 1 trillion euro”.
We have always believed that the role of the European Central Bank is critical, and I welcome the positive statement made by Mario Draghi, the incoming ECB president.
Talk of special purpose vehicles has given rise to questions about the involvement of the International Monetary Fund and major shareholders such as the UK. As I have said to the House on many occasions, Britain has always been one of the IMF’s largest shareholders and biggest supporters: we helped to create the institution 60 years ago; the last Government agreed to increase its resources two years ago; and this Government not only ratified that agreement but helped to make the IMF more representative of the new world economy by brokering a deal last year that gave countries such as China and Brazil a greater say, while securing Britain’s seat on the board. The IMF has been an active participant in the packages put together to support Ireland, Portugal and Greece. It has also been active in extending flexible credit lines to Poland and Mexico—neither of which is in the eurozone, of course—as well as supporting other countries in central and eastern Europe such as Hungary, Romania and Latvia. Indeed, it currently has 53 lending programmes around the world, of which only three are in the eurozone.
Supporting countries that cannot support themselves is what the IMF exists to do, and there may well be a case for further increasing the resources of the IMF to keep pace with the size of the global economy. Britain, as a founding and permanent member of its governing board, stands ready to consider the case for further resources and contribute, with other countries, if necessary. Let us remember that support for the IMF does not add to our debt or deficit, and that no-one who has ever provided money to the IMF has ever lost that money. But let me be very clear: we are prepared to see an increase only in the resources that the IMF makes available to all the countries of the world. We would not be prepared to see IMF resources reserved for use only by the eurozone. By all means the IMF can use its expertise and advice to help the eurozone to create the special purpose vehicle that it is considering. By all means let countries with large foreign currency reserves such as China consider putting their own money into the eurozone’s special purpose vehicle—that must be their decision—but the IMF cannot put its own resources in; it can lend only to countries with a programme for adjustment.
I confirm today that Britain will not put its resources in either. We do not have a surplus; we have a large deficit. We have had to use our resources to recapitalise our banks and to stand behind our currency. An active member of the IMF? Yes. Helping the IMF with advice and technical support? Yes. But the IMF contributing money to the eurozone bail-out fund? No. And Britain contributing money to the eurozone bail-out fund? No. That is Britain’s clear position.
We expect eurozone members to use the next few days—the next few weeks, at the most—to provide much more detail about their plans to increase their firewalls and sort out Greek debt. We have made it clear that the sooner that happens, the better it will be for the world economy. We must maintain the momentum.
This package will not on its own resolve the longer-term issues of how to make the euro work more effectively. Those longer-term issues were addressed yesterday, and there were proposals for greater fiscal integration and mutual control over the budget policies of eurozone Governments. I have argued that we need to follow the remorseless logic of monetary union, and that involves a loss of national sovereignty for countries in the eurozone.
It is in Britain’s interest that the euro operates more effectively, provided that the interests of all 27 member states are properly protected in key areas of European policy, such as the single market, competition and financial services. We are insistent that our voice will continue to be heard and our national interests protected. We have found allies among the other 10 members of the EU that are not in the euro. An important marker was put down in Sunday’s European Council conclusions.
No one pretends that sorting out this situation in a satisfactory way will be easy, but it is a necessity. That is the context in which we should approach potential treaty changes. The coalition Government have already proved that they can protect Britain’s interests by getting us out of the previous Government’s involvement in the eurozone bail-outs, holding down the European Union budget increases, and putting into law the guarantee that no further powers or competencies can be transferred to Brussels without the consent of the British people in a referendum. The Government will again protect Britain’s interests as the discussions on a possible limited treaty change begin. We will seek to rebalance the responsibilities between the EU and its member states, which in our view have become unbalanced.
Finally, the euro will not find lasting stability until its peripheral members become more competitive. That means credible plans to reduce budget deficits. That commitment was made in the very first section of yesterday’s agreement. However, that involves difficult decisions on pension ages, business tax rates, welfare reform and educational standards. Britain, thankfully, is not in the euro, but we are taking those difficult decisions at home, because the ultimate lesson of this crisis is that unless a country can pay its way in the world and compete around the globe, it will be next in the firing line. I am determined that our country will never be in the firing line.
Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab)
I thank the Chancellor for coming to the House to make that statement. With the shadow Chancellor in New York, I am responding on behalf of the Opposition, and I have a number of detailed questions. It is good that some agreement has been reached, but with so little detail, many unanswered questions remain. I hope that the Chancellor can help the House today, because whatever happens in the eurozone will have huge ramifications for British families and businesses.
First, on the recapitalisation of the banks, is the Chancellor confident that the deal announced is sufficient and that UK banks do not need further recapitalisation? Will he keep that under review? What estimates has he made of the exposure of UK banks to Greek, Italian, Portuguese and Spanish sovereign debt? Will he confirm that the House of Commons estimates of $3 billion for Greece and $17 billion for Italy reflect the current position for UK banks? Although the agreement states that banks and other creditors are invited to accept a 50% loss on Greek sovereign debt, is the Chancellor confident that the vast majority will agree—and if so, by when?
On the expansion of the European financial stability facility, does the Chancellor believe that the €1 trillion package is sufficient? Does it amount to the “big bazooka” that the Prime Minister talked about earlier this month? Alternatively, will we be back here in a few months’ time, which would mean further uncertainty, undermining confidence, undermining investment and undermining growth? That is the last thing that Britain, or Europe, needs.
Can the Chancellor explain how the leveraging of the EFSF will work, and when he believes the detail of credit enhancement and special purpose vehicles will be finalised? If the EFSF must also fund bank recapitalisation, will it be sufficient to give the markets confidence, and will there be funds remaining to underpin any sovereign debt crisis and prevent further contagion?
Although we have a clear economic interest in the eurozone sorting out its problems, the interests of British taxpayers must be safeguarded. It would have been wrong for Britain to pay twice, both through ongoing temporary EU bail-out funds and through the IMF. If this package is indeed the final and permanent bail-out fund, any British role should be through the IMF alone.
I heard the Chancellor’s question and answer session with himself on the IMF, but will he clarify what he said on the radio this morning? He said that the IMF was not
“going to put additional resources directly into the eurozone, hypothecated for the eurozone.”
Does he believe, though, that there will need to be a further increase in UK contributions to the IMF? Whether he succeeds in persuading it to describe that as anything other than a hypothecated fund is irrelevant.
On the arrangements for future decision making, the agreement states:
“The President of the Euro Summit will keep non euro-area member states closely informed of preparations and outcomes of summits.”
“Closely informed”? Has Britain now been reduced to simply receiving a postcard from Brussels? How will the Chancellor ensure that Britain’s voice, and our vital national interest, is heard loud and clear in future negotiations?
On the forthcoming treaty changes, will the Chancellor admit what the Prime Minister was unable to admit yesterday? Is it now the Government’s policy to seek to repatriate powers as part of those treaty changes? Which ones, and on what timetable?
Finally, is not the missing piece in the agreement the lack of any plan for jobs and growth, which were not mentioned at all in the Chancellor’s statement? Is it not the case that without growth we cannot solve the debt crisis, we cannot solve the banking crisis, and we cannot solve the jobs crisis? At this time, Britain should be leading the charge and pushing for a proper plan for jobs and growth across Europe. But is not the truth that this Chancellor cannot do that? With unemployment at a 17-year high here in Britain, with no growth since last autumn, and with borrowing therefore now set to be £46 billion higher than he planned, he is clinging to an austerity plan that is failing here in Britain.
With the UK economy flatlining since this time last year, before the eurozone crisis of recent months, and with only Greece and Portugal growing more slowly than Britain, is it not time that we had a plan for jobs and growth—across Europe, yes, but here in Britain too?
Mr Osborne
I thank the hon. Lady for some of her questions. Of course, we miss the constructive and consensual approach of the shadow Chancellor. We are talking about the Bretton Woods institutions, and it turns out that he is at a place called Buttonwood, which adds to the pantomime feel of Labour’s economic policy.
Let me deal directly with the hon. Lady’s questions. First, of course we keep the capital and liquidity positions of the British banks under constant review. We would do that in the absence of any European agreement, but of course we have also participated in the recent work by the European Banking Authority. We thought it was important that that was done at EU level rather than eurozone level. I repeat what I said in my statement: the EBA and our own authorities confirm that no British bank requires additional capital, which of course is very good news for us all.
On the hon. Lady’s question about getting private sector involvement in the write-down of Greek debt, that is of course one of the key unresolved issues from last night. We now need to see whether the headline agreement reached on behalf of the private sector can be implemented in practice. I am confident that it can, but that is one of the crucial next steps that need to be got on with.
The hon. Lady asked about the exposure of the UK banking system and the UK economy to various peripheral economies of Europe. Those figures are published regularly by the Bank of England. I do not propose to repeat them today, but they are available for everyone to see.
On the question that the hon. Lady asked about the overall fund, €1 trillion is the number that the eurozone has put on its firewall. Of course, some said it should be larger, but it is very significantly larger than what we had yesterday, which we should welcome. As with private sector involvement in the Greek deal, we now need to see the details of how the eurozone will create that leverage. It has set out two options that can work side by side. One is a kind of first loss insurance on newly issued debt, and the second is the special purpose vehicle, by which it hopes to get external private sector investment. Of course, it is openly speculating about getting Chinese money into that.
The IMF can only lend directly to countries, and countries with programmes or agreed and negotiated flexible credit lines, which will remain the case. It cannot lend into that special purpose vehicle. That is also the UK position. We do not think that Britain, with its deficit, can contribute to the special purpose vehicle. If we were to do so, we would add to our debt, and we do not think that that is appropriate. We have had to use our own resources to deal with our own problems in this country.
It is of course crucial that the IMF remains a central economic institution in dealing with the world’s problems, and I urge the hon. Lady, newly appointed as shadow Chief Secretary, to reconsider Labour’s position—[Interruption.] I know that the hon. Member for Nottingham East (Chris Leslie) led the Labour party in Committee to vote against the increase in IMF resources, which the last Labour Prime Minister negotiated at the London 2009 summit. Whatever I have said about the right hon. Gentleman—and I have said quite a few things—I do not think that anyone would doubt that the highlight of his premiership was the negotiation of the London 2009 G20 deal. It is completely astonishing that the Labour party voted against that agreement.
As we discuss over the next few months increasing the IMF’s resources to deal with all the countries of the world, I urge Labour Members to reconsider their position on that, and also their rather odd position on the euro. They seem to be holding out membership of the euro—[Hon. Members: “No!”] Well, that is certainly what the Labour leader was doing at the weekend. To be in the euro but out of the IMF strikes me as a rather bizarre economic policy at the moment.
That brings me to my final point. Britain has been arguing consistently for months that a solution to this crisis requires recapitalising the banks, reinforcing the firewall and resolving the Greek crisis. We have insisted that the appropriate issues are discussed at the level of 27, which is why there have been two European Councils this week, and an ECOFIN. We will continue to argue for Britain’s national interest as we enter the difficult discussions ahead on the potential treaty change, on making the euro work, and above all on getting the growth and jobs that the hon. Lady talks about across Europe and in this country, by making this continent far more competitive and stopping Britain and Europe from pricing themselves out of the world economy.
Mr Andrew Tyrie (Chichester) (Con)
Following on from the Chancellor’s final remarks, I am sure he would agree that without a restoration of growth in the eurozone, the debt crisis simply cannot be resolved. He has been with his counterparts quite a lot in the past few days. What evidence has he seen in discussions with them that the EU has the will to implement the necessary reforms on the supply side of the economy to restore Europe’s global competitiveness?
Mr Osborne
There is increasing evidence that people are focused on the structural issues facing the European economy. Indeed, when my hon. Friend looks at the agreement issued by the eurozone last night, he will see that when it refers to Spain and Italy, it stresses the importance not just of getting their budget deficits down, but of plans to increase the pension age and make labour legislation more flexible and competitive—all the sorts of things that this Government are pursuing here in Britain, although every one of those measures has been opposed by the Labour party.
Mr Alistair Darling (Edinburgh South West) (Lab)
Does the Chancellor agree that one reason why the bank recapitalisation worked three years ago was that we were able to provide precisely the sort of detail required to reassure markets that we were taking the necessary action? When can we expect to hear, for example, exactly how much Greek debt is to be written down, and which banks in continental Europe will require additional funds from Governments or other sources? When can we expect to hear more detail about the rescue fund? In relation to that, can he let us know whether there is a commitment on the part of the eurozone to provide real cash—or are we looking at a sophisticated financial instrument of the sort that might have contributed to the problems in the first place?
Mr Osborne
I fear that we are looking at a sophisticated financial instrument here. However, it is clear that Germany and the Bundestag were not prepared to provide further resources. The European Central Bank was not prepared to provide those resources either, for all sorts of reasons to do with its history and those of other central banks in Europe. They have therefore turned to those options to try to leverage up the money they have already committed. That is the sensible choice for them, given those other constraints. They are trying to get other private investors from around the world, potentially including the involvement of sovereign wealth funds, to leverage up the fund.
Of course, I completely agree with the right hon. Gentleman that the sooner we get the agreement in detail, the better. That applies equally to what he said about private sector involvement in the Greek write-down. A mistake made earlier this year, on 21 July, was that eurozone members put together a deal and then took months to implement it and get the detail. He is completely right to say that yes, we made some good progress overnight, but the job is not finished yet. The eurozone now has to get the detail and reassure the markets that it has got a grip of the situation. That is where we will continue to exert British pressure.
Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con)
In what respects does the Chancellor believe, and can he demonstrate, that the proposals for a two-tier Europe and a fiscal union do not represent a constitutional, economic and political fundamental change in the relationship between the EU and ourselves?
Mr Osborne
If my hon. Friend is referring, as I suspect he is, to the European Union Act 2011, there are clear procedures in place for establishing whether powers or competences are being transferred from the UK and this Parliament to Brussels. Those procedures are clearly set out, but I would say that it is in our interests that the euro works. That requires greater fiscal integration within the eurozone, which works to the benefit of Britain, provided that—this is an important proviso—we can continue to ensure that our voice is heard on issues that are for the 27 members, such as the single market, competition policy and financial services. That is what we will be fighting hard for in the coming months.
Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab)
I remain wholly unconvinced that the euro can survive in its current form, unless the weaker countries are permitted to recreate their own currencies and devalue. They currently face permanent deflation and permanent handouts from Germany. That is no future for them, and no future for Europe.
Mr Osborne
The hon. Gentleman has consistently made that argument for at least as long as I have been a Member of the House of Commons, and longer still. He probably takes some comfort in the fact that events over the past decade have tended to reinforce the views that he has expressed, but I would say this: it is in Britain’s interest that we make the euro work. The disorderly break-up of the euro, or any break-up of the euro, would be an enormous economic blow for this country. Forty per cent. of our trade is with the eurozone.
If we set aside the arguments that we will have this autumn and next year about the domestic effects of the Government’s policies—the Government will argue that they promote growth, and the Opposition will argue that they undermine it—everyone in the House would accept that instability in the eurozone has had a chilling effect on the British economy and other economies. If that is what a bit of instability and market volatility can create, let us just imagine what the break-up of the eurozone will do to this economy.
Michael Fallon (Sevenoaks) (Con)
Will my right hon. Friend explain to the House what the consequences would have been for our membership of the IMF if those who had voted against the increase in our subscription had prevailed?
Mr Osborne
That would have been catastrophic. We would have been the only IMF shareholder not to have ratified the deal initiated at the London G20 summit, which would have completely isolated Britain. We might have had to leave the IMF, and we would certainly have lost our permanent seat on the board. We heard all the talk from the shadow Chief Secretary about ensuring that Britain is at the table—but she wants us to get up and leave the IMF table.
Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab)
In his statement, the Chancellor said, quite rightly, that the euro would not work unless the periphery countries regained their competitiveness. How is that possible if those countries do not have the full IMF package, including currency devaluation? In that context, does he think that the IMF will get its money back?
Mr Osborne
It is perfectly possible for areas within a monetary union to increase their competitiveness relative to other areas in the union—parts of the United Kingdom and the United States have done so in the past 20 or 30 years. It is possible, but it is very hard work—I agree with the sentiment that the hon. Lady is expressing—and requires people to tackle tough issues, such as labour market reform, pension ages, tax rates and so on, which, of course, are controversial. However, people in countries such as Italy, Spain and Greece have been confronted with the reality of the need to make change—although we will see whether they do indeed undertake that change. The IMF is the guardian of its own programmes and makes constant assessments of its programmes in Ireland, Greece and Portugal. I do not want to be premature, but I think that we are seeing substantial improvement in the Irish economic performance after the difficult decisions that they have taken in that country.
Mr Douglas Carswell (Clacton) (Con)
The Foreign Secretary once described the euro as a “burning building”. Might it not be an idea for us to help our neighbours get out of the building? We know that there is always an exit from monetary union, so why not help our friends to get out? Keeping them in at any price is in neither their interests nor ours.
Mr Osborne
My hon. Friend and I have discussed this matter before, and we disagree. What the Foreign Secretary said at the time—I remember because I was his speechwriter—[Interruption.] And there were some very good speeches at the time.
Mr Osborne
They were all written by him.
The Foreign Secretary described the euro as a
“burning building with no exits”.
That was his point. As I said, the break-up of the euro, disorderly or otherwise, this autumn or in the foreseeable future, would cause enormous instability to the entire global economy and do enormous damage to the British economy.
Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab)
Will the Chancellor provide some clarification? He said that no UK funding would go to the euro bail-out. When he talked about supporting the IMF, therefore, did he mean with advice and suggestions only or is he using UK taxpayers’ money to support it? If the latter, how will he force the IMF to ring-fence the money so that it does not pay for a euro bail-out?
Mr Osborne
Let me be clear to the hon. Lady. The IMF potentially has a role—but that is yet to be decided—in helping the eurozone to organise its special purpose vehicle, provide technical support and do all the things that it is very good at doing, which is stepping in and providing expertise. That is a perfectly legitimate role for the IMF. It has done it in other situations where trust funds and the like have been created around the world. However, we are saying that there should not be IMF resources going into this special purpose vehicle in terms of a lending programme. The IMF lends money to countries with conditions attached, and that is what it should do in the future. It is what its articles require it to do. We do not support, and I do not think that the IMF does either, changing those articles and allowing the IMF to lend money to the special purpose vehicle. We are against that and against Britain contributing to the special purpose vehicle, even if countries such as China or Chinese sovereign wealth funds do contribute.
Stephen Williams (Bristol West) (LD)
I welcome the Chancellor’s statement that resolving the immediate crisis in the eurozone and securing the long-term future of the euro currency are in Britain’s national interest. However, does he agree that it is also in Britain’s national interest to maintain full, positive and active engagement within the EU 27 member states in order to deepen the single market and increase intra-EU trade, which will benefit all member states?
Mr Osborne
I absolutely agree that there is a very important role for the EU27 to strengthen and deepen the single market and to promote free trade—the EU has just concluded a free trade agreement with South Korea that benefits the British economy directly. Also, the EU will have an important role in things such as financial services regulation, and it is important that that is discussed at the level of the 27, because we are such an important player in the financial services industry worldwide. So I completely agree with the hon. Gentleman. Britain has been absolutely clear in recent months that issues affecting the 27 should be discussed by the 27, not at the level of the 17 euro members. It has been partly through our insistence, with others, that there have been two European Councils and an ECOFIN this week to ensure that proper procedures are followed.
Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op)
The Chancellor said that British interests should be properly protected when the eurozone countries move towards giving up national sovereignty and towards greater fiscal integration. Will he clarify how that will happen?
Mr Osborne
This is the argument that we have to make over the coming months and as the discussions start on whether there is going to be a future treaty change—although what is being talked about is a treaty change of a limited nature. We have to look for ways of securing Britain’s influence and voice, and the influence and voice of the other nine EU member states that are not in the eurozone. That is absolutely top of our negotiating agenda. However, we also want to secure a rebalancing of the responsibilities between the EU and its member states, which will be another important part of the argument that we make.
Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that now that the 17 eurozone countries have established the precedent of holding their own euro summit and have created yet another president, the president of the euro group, there is a real danger that they will start to agree policies to suit themselves and then impose them on the other 10 EU countries that, thankfully, like the UK, have not adopted the euro?
Mr Osborne
I agree with my hon. Friend that we have to be alert to the danger of the 17 eurozone members, which will have a qualified voting majority, caucusing on areas that are legitimately the preserve of the 27 member states. When this country, under the previous Government, allowed the eurogroup of Finance Ministers to be established and accepted that Britain would not be at that eurogroup, there was the fear that the eurogroup would caucus. That was one of the concerns of the then Government and Opposition. That actually has not happened. If anything, they have not co-ordinated and worked together closely enough over the past decade or so. However, he is absolutely right that we need to ensure that they do not caucus in the future in a way that undermines our voice and influence or that bounces all 27 member states. All member states not in the euro are alert to this challenge. Indeed, last night the Prime Minister had dinner with the Polish and Swedish Prime Ministers to discuss precisely that issue.
Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab)
Will the Chancellor be crystal clear? Is he guaranteeing that no British money will be used for this bail-out directly, through the IMF or through any other vehicle?
Mr Osborne
I can guarantee that British money is not going into the special purpose vehicle.
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
The Chancellor is absolutely right to say that a disorderly break-up of the euro would be a disaster, but given that the euro is going to break up, should we not take the advice of the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) and organise an orderly break up of the euro?
Mr Osborne
I do not think that the orderly break-up of the euro, even if it were desirable, which I am not saying it would be, could be done in a way that would not lead to a pretty disorderly impact on financial markets and the British economy.
Chris Bryant
The hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) is a very naughty boy and I shall see him afterwards.
Basically, Greece lied about its finances and Italy is probably still lying about its finances. It would have helped enormously had there been independent proper auditing of those countries’ finances. Many people opposed that when it was proposed, but surely we should be advocating it now. The danger for the Government is that it might apply to all 27 countries, not just the 17 eurozone members.
Mr Osborne
Indeed. The statement talked about independent auditing of finance and independent growth figures on which to base fiscal projections, which is precisely what we have introduced in this country through the creation of the Office for Budget Responsibility. That will ensure that we do not get political pressure to alter the growth forecast of the type that the former Chancellor, the right hon. Member for Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling), detailed in his recent autobiography.
Mr Robert Walter (North Dorset) (Con)
The 50% haircut has been described as a charge on the banks, but Greek sovereign debt is actually held by insurance companies, pension funds and hundreds of thousands of individual savers. Can my right hon. Friend tell us what is in the package—or what measures he thinks need to be taken—to restore confidence in the existing sovereign debt of the peripheral eurozone countries?
Mr Osborne
My hon. Friend’s first point is a good one. The write-down of Greek debt ultimately has an impact on people who invest in Greek debt, either directly or—as is more likely for the general population of this country—through their pension funds and the like. Thankfully, British institutions were not that heavily exposed to the Greek banking system and economy, compared with other European countries such as France and Germany, but he is right that people will have taken losses. In Britain, the institutions that he mentioned all provisioned for Greek loss many months ago, so it will come as no shock to them. More broadly, he asked about confidence in the stock of debt, which is of course one of the challenges. The first loss guarantee that the agreement talks about is only for newly issued debt. We will have to see how the special purpose vehicle works as well, but in general, if there is confidence that there is a sufficient set of mechanisms in place to stand behind the euro and countries that are in trouble, that will also increase confidence in the stock of debt.
Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central) (Lab)
The Chancellor might be surprised to know that if limited treaty changes are necessary to set up the inner 17, there would be support from the Opposition Benches for the limited changes needed to protect Britain’s interests and for the capacity to build a coalition among the 10 non-eurozone members. However, a very real political question is whether the Chancellor and the Prime Minister will be able to withstand the pressure from their Back Benches for much more fundamental reform of the treaty.
Mr Osborne
I would hope that we would persuade all parties in this House. There is certainly strong agreement on the Conservative Benches that we want to rebalance the responsibilities and repatriate some powers. The Liberal Democrats and the Liberal Democrat leader have talked about rebalancing responsibilities—he did so earlier this week. [Interruption.] The shadow Treasury Minister, the hon. Member for Nottingham East (Chris Leslie), seems to forget the position set out by his party leader this weekend. When he was asked whether he thought that Brussels had too much power, he said no. That is the official position of the Labour party going into these negotiations. I know that Opposition Members look pretty glum about it, but that is what the leader they chose—or rather, they did not choose—has done for them.
Mrs Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con)
Will the Chancellor explain to the House how it has come about that although the United Kingdom’s deficit this year is larger than Greece’s, our interest rates are similar to those in Germany?
Mr Osborne
My hon. Friend makes a good observation. Because of the credible fiscal plans that we have set out, we have secured confidence in Britain’s ability to pay its way in the world, taken our credit rating off negative watch, which is where it was at the time of the general election, and secured for our country record low interest rates. Those interest rates would be at risk if we pursued the policies advocated by the Opposition, which would also be a rather bizarre position to take into the European Council discussions, when right at the top of the agreement signed yesterday is the statement that countries need to pursue policies of
“fiscal consolidation and structural reforms.”
The Opposition have voted against every policy of fiscal consolidation and every policy of structural reform.
Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)
Does the Chancellor think that the 50% haircut of Greek sovereign debt will be sufficient and does he expect that holders of Italian debt will also need a trip to the barber’s?
Mr Osborne
We think 50% is a very good number. We had in mind somewhere around 50%, and we wondered whether that would be achievable. One of the pleasant surprises of last night was that it was achieved. It is only a headline agreement, and as the former Chancellor said earlier, it absolutely needs to be put into practice now if this deal is to mean anything. I think it is best for me to stick to talking just about Greece.
Joseph Johnson (Orpington) (Con)
RBS shares have jumped 7% this morning in response to the eurozone statement. Does the Chancellor share the markets’ view that British banks are sufficiently capitalised to withstand not just the haircut to Greek debt, but any other eventualities that might arise in the eurozone over the next few months?
Mr Osborne
Yes, I am confident about that, which is also something that the Bank of England and the Financial Services Authority monitor carefully. The important thing about the test that the European Banking Authority applied was that it not only required banks to hold 9% core tier 1, but marked to market their sovereign debt exposures, which is something that the eurozone resisted for the last year and a half. Of course, the market has priced in some haircuts—to continue the barbershop analogy—of other sovereign debts. That does not mean that I think they will happen; they are what the market thinks will happen. The fact that we have now tested our banks against those marked to market on sovereign debt gives us confidence that the banking system in Britain can withstand whatever is thrown its way in the next couple of months.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
Something that I do not often discuss with people in the House is the fact that for some years the previous Prime Minister, Tony Blair, his Chancellor and I chaired the committee on preparations for the euro, on which the present Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills served, so I have some experience in this area. The Governor of the Bank of England said that we were in the middle of the worst crisis in the history of the international economy, but when I listened to today’s statement, the Chancellor seemed to come across as extremely timid about this country’s role in meeting that challenge.
Mr Osborne
I will have to thumb through the index of Peter Oborne’s book, “Guilty Men”, to see whether there is a reference to the hon. Gentleman. I will concede that there are a few references to some of my colleagues in that book, but I have a good alibi, which is that I was writing speeches for the Foreign Secretary at the time, making it clear what some of the problems were with the euro, and some of those problems have come to pass.
Mr Osborne
As the Foreign Secretary used to say at the time, he wrote his own speeches, and I write my speeches today—and those who have written my speeches before me have got themselves into the House of Commons, which is a good thing.
The serious point that I would make to the hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman) is this. I completely reject his idea that Britain has been marginalised. We have actually insisted that such matters be discussed at the European Council and ECOFIN. A key component of today’s agreement is the banking package, which is the area where there is most detail. There was a 10-hour negotiation to achieve the banking package last Saturday which Britain was right at the heart of, so we are at the centre of things. I suspect that the hon. Gentleman agrees with me that his party’s Front-Bench policy to marginalise us from the IMF would also see us leaving that key negotiating table.
Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con)
Can my right hon. Friend confirm that the proposals for a financial transaction tax are now dead in the water?
Mr Osborne
I cannot confirm that they are dead in the water, because the eurozone is determined to pursue a financial transaction tax and talks about that in its statement. However, I can confirm to my hon. Friend that Britain will not accept a financial transaction tax at an EU27 level while other jurisdictions in the world do not impose one. We are not opposed to financial transaction taxes in principle—after all, we have stamp duty on shares in this country—but we will not have a financial transaction tax at a European Union level while countries such as America, China, Singapore and others do not have one. As their having one is a long way off, we will be waiting a long time—perhaps for ever—for a European Union financial transaction tax.
Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op)
Over the next few years we are likely to see the emergence of a two-speed Europe, with the Government—or parts of the Government—going in exactly the opposite direction. What can the Chancellor and the Prime Minister do to ensure that we are not locked out of the fundamental decisions that will be made?
Mr Osborne
I just do not accept the premise behind the hon. Gentleman’s question. The coalition agreement explicitly states:
“We will ensure that there is no further transfer of sovereignty or powers over the course of the next Parliament. We will examine the balance of the EU’s existing competences”.
The odd one out is the Labour party, which has set itself against taking any power from Brussels back to Britain. That is exactly what the Labour leader said this weekend when asked that question. I suggest that the hon. Gentleman use his lobbying efforts and his questions on his own party leader.
Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)
I for one do not share the optimism that the latest package of measures will do the job, if only because it does not address the fundamental cause of the problem, which is a lack of competitiveness. Can the Chancellor assure the House and the country that, if there were to be a further downward leg to the crisis, Britain will not be called on in any way to help financially with any further rescue packages, whether through the IMF or not?
Mr Osborne
As I have said to the House, Britain should not be part of eurozone bail-outs. We got ourselves out of—[Interruption.] I am answering the question. On coming to office, on the Sunday after the general election, the Labour Government committed us to being part of an EU bail-out of the eurozone. We have now got ourselves out of that, which is very important. We are also not contributing to the eurozone bail-out of Greece, which has just increased in size; nor are we going to contribute to any special purpose vehicle or fund that might be created. We are absolutely clear about that. When it comes to IMF resources, like every other country in the world that is a member of the IMF, including China, Thailand, Guatemala, the United States of America, Canada and Brazil, we of course contribute to its resources for the 53 programmes that it is currently carrying out across the world, and we will continue to do so. However, we are not prepared to see—and the articles of the IMF do not allow for—money from the IMF being put into a special purpose vehicle. So I think that the position is pretty clear.
Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab)
I would think much more highly of the Chancellor if he would actually admit that one reason that the banking system in the UK is not under threat is because the last Government and the people of this country bailed out the banks.
The right hon. Gentleman will recall that, as Hansard will show, I asked him last time about the possibility that they would require a £2 trillion fund, which most economists say they will, and that the so-called haircut—more Sweeney Todd than Vidal Sassoon—would be 60%. Surely we must be in the IMF and involved in funding through the IMF; otherwise the big bazooka that the Prime Minister has talked about will say “Made in China”.
Mr Osborne
I am happy to acknowledge that the previous Government recapitalised the British banks. They were obviously under enormous duress at the time—[Interruption.] It is simply not the case, as the hon. Member for Nottingham East has just suggested, that the Conservatives opposed that. We supported it at the time; indeed, we were advocating it in advance of it happening. However, I completely recognise that it was a difficult decision for the previous Government to take.
On the question of the size of the fund, of course there are those who would like it to be even larger. We should welcome the significant progress that has increased its size severalfold to, potentially, around €1 trillion, which is a significant sum. The hon. Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk (Michael Connarty) also asked an interesting question about what was happening during our time as Members of Parliament to the balance of economic force and power in the world. I suspect that we are going to spend many years talking about that in the period ahead.
Mr James Clappison (Hertsmere) (Con)
I welcome my right hon. Friend the Chancellor’s approach, including his recognition that the division of responsibilities between the EU and member states has become unbalanced. Does he agree that the new proposals for fiscal integration and mutual control in the eurozone do nothing to reduce the case for a rebalancing of those responsibilities?
Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)
Can the Chancellor update us on the situation regarding Cypriot banks, with their many customers in the UK and their tie-in to the Greek economy?
Mr Osborne
We keep under close surveillance not only British banks but the branches of Cypriot banks and the subsidiaries of other banks operating here in the UK. So we are closely monitoring the Cypriot banks, as we do with the other eurozone banks in Britain.
Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD)
Has the Chancellor seen any credible figures that show that Greece can solve its long-term deficit and debt problems and still remain in the eurozone?
Mr Osborne
Yes, I think that there are plenty of things that Greece can do, which the Greek Government have already identified, to make itself much more competitive. It is coming from a long way behind, but it can do quite a lot in regard to its labour market, its pension ages, its tax rates and the like that would make it considerably more competitive than it is today.
Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op)
Can the Chancellor please give us more details of how he intends to represent the UK’s interests, given that the eurozone countries have their own separate president and summits?
Mr Osborne
Eurozone Finance Ministers’ meetings are already held every month—that was agreed by the previous Government—and there is now an agreement to hold two eurozone Heads of Government summits a year. There have been two this year already, but we should not regard that as a fundamental threat; we have to allow them to get together to better manage their own currency. We are, however, looking at proposals that have been put forward here for those summits to take place after the EU27 leaders gather, rather than before, so that we do not have any caucusing in advance of a meeting of the European Council.
Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con)
How confident is my right hon. Friend that countries such as China will want to contribute to the special purpose vehicle, and what will happen if they do not?
Mr Osborne
The short answer is that we will find out whether China wants to contribute. The President of France is speaking to the President of China today, and he will no doubt give us all an update following that conversation.
Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)
Much to the annoyance of some of his Back Benchers, the Chancellor supports greater fiscal integration within the eurozone, but what precisely does he mean by greater fiscal integration?
Mr Osborne
I think that the hon. Gentleman is being a little unfair to Conservative Back Benchers. Actually, quite a lot of Eurosceptics would argue—as I would, as a Eurosceptic—that we always said that this would happen if we joined the single currency. We always said that it would result in losing national sovereignty, co-ordinating budget policies or giving away powers over budgets. That is one of the reasons that we did not want Britain to join; it is why we stayed out. Given that monetary union logic leads to greater fiscal integration, we should let that happen, because I think that it will make the euro work better. As I have said, however, Britain wants no part of it.
Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)
Harlow taxpayers will be very relieved that none of their hard-earned money is to be used to prop up failed socialist Governments in Europe. They will also want to be sure, however, that my right hon. Friend will do all that he can to repatriate powers from Europe, unlike Labour Members, who believe that everything in the EU garden is rosy.
Mr Osborne
I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend that we are going to seek to rebalance those responsibilities. He also draws our attention to the fact that Greece and Spain are run by socialist Governments, but I do not want to intrude on their politics.
John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab)
Having just taken credit for letting Greece off half its debt at the expense of, among others, British pensioners, what provisions would the Chancellor advise British institutions to make in regard to Italian debt?
Mr Osborne
I am not providing that advice across the Dispatch Box, but the Financial Services Authority, the Bank of England and the Treasury monitor British financial institutions to ensure that they are appropriately prepared for things that might happen. The European Banking Authority test that I have talked about takes into account a mark to market on the sovereign debt exposures of countries such as Italy and Spain.
Mr Rob Wilson (Reading East) (Con)
The Opposition have talked a lot about Britain’s marginalisation, so may I say that I welcome the fact that the Prime Minister attended yesterday’s meeting because I know that the Leader of the Opposition would much prefer President Sarkozy to represent this country? Will my right hon. Friend confirm that while he is Chancellor he will do everything he can to ensure that a British Prime Minister represents British interests in Europe?
Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab)
May I just press the Chancellor a little further on the Prime Minister’s desire to repatriate powers over employment and social policy? What discussions has he had so far with eurozone Finance Ministers on these matters and how many of them would he expect to support the Prime Minister’s position?
Mr Osborne
The discussions on treaty change, which the Council conclusions on the eurozone mention, have only just begun, so I have not had those discussions.
Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con)
Would my right hon. Friend anticipate how his international counterparts would have reacted at recent EU summits if he had argued that, as advocated by Labour Members, the UK should increase its borrowing by the end of this Parliament by up to £87 billion a year?
Mr Osborne
We would, of course, have been laughed out of the summit. We would not even have been able to sign up to the Council’s conclusions. The Labour party policy has no plan to reduce the deficit—[Interruption.] Well, if there is a plan, let us hear it. Let us hear one example. The Labour party has no plan to reduce our deficit, which is higher than that of almost any of the countries we have talked about. It has a plan basically to pull us out of the International Monetary Fund and a plan to join the euro—such plans would be treated as slightly bizarre at some of these meetings.
Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)
More constituents have contacted me about the financial transaction tax than ever contacted me about Monday’s debate. They will be pleased to have heard the Chancellor say that he supports this in principle. Will he go to the G20 to argue vigorously in favour of this tax?
Mr Osborne
What I would say about the financial transaction tax—[Interruption.] I am not sure that it is Labour policy. There is a debate about this tax, but attached to it is a serious red herring. People would like a financial transaction tax to be used to pay for the aid commitments into which big western countries entered. That is what all the non-governmental organisations that contacted the hon. Lady and others are arguing for. Britain is meeting its international aid commitments out of its own resources, and we do need a financial transaction tax across Europe for other countries to meet the aid commitments they entered into. When it comes to the principle of the financial transaction tax, one cannot oppose it, as we have a stamp duty on shares, but I would say that if we impose such a tax in Europe, all the business would disappear overnight to Hong Kong, Singapore and elsewhere. We know that because that is what happened when the United States imposed a form of transaction tax on the euro-dollar market—it moved to London—and when Sweden introduced a financial transaction tax in the early ’90s, its entire business moved to London almost immediately. We have many case-studies. I understand why people are emotive about this issue, but surely the question is, “Are you meeting your aid commitments?”—and this country is. We should all be proud of that.
David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con)
Following the deal on the eurozone, I understand that Italian media and Italian businesses are calling on Mr Berlusconi to copy this Government’s approach to deficit reduction. Does my right hon. Friend agree that Italy and other eurozone countries would have been far better off if they had followed that course of action long before now?
Mr Osborne
I think they would have been in a better position if they had got ahead of the pressure from the markets rather than being pursued by them. That is precisely what this Government did in Britain. The markets are, for many people, an abstract idea, but as we have discussed, we are talking ultimately about the decisions of many millions of investors and people with pensions, life insurance policies and the like about where they put their money. If they do not have confidence in a country’s ability to pay its way in the world, that money disappears almost overnight.
Gordon Banks (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Lab)
Has the Chancellor had an opportunity to carry out the work that will determine if, when and by how much last night’s decision will impact on UK growth? If he has not had that opportunity, will he undertake to come back to us so we can have further debate on that very matter?
Mr Osborne
The honest answer to the hon. Gentleman’s perfectly good question is that, on the morning after the night before, we do not know because important details remain to be resolved. We need to see the detail of how this 50% write-down of Greek debt is going to happen and we need to see how the new firewall will work in practice. We have to see the details: until they are in place, this will remain unresolved and the instability might return. The answer to the hon. Gentleman’s question is that when the detail is in place, we should be able to make an assessment of whether it has calmed the markets and improved the UK growth position.
Mr Julian Brazier (Canterbury) (Con)
While strongly supporting my right hon. Friend’s robust defence of the national interest, may I ask him what the statement means where it says “to provide, from the bail-out fund”, presumably the existing bail-out fund, “insurance on new debt issued by eurozone countries”, presumably including Italy?
Mr Osborne
The concept here is that first-loss insurance on newly issued debt from countries such as Italy, as my hon. Friend mentions, would be provided out of the special purpose vehicle. That would obviously make it easier for investors to buy bad debt.
Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)
I welcome the Chancellor’s statement that some progress has been made to protect the eurozone. In parallel with repatriating powers, will the British Government make it absolutely certain that the single market becomes a place where competition can thrive and productivity can improve, as it is in our interest as well as that of the whole of Europe to make sure that it works well?
Mr Osborne
I could not agree more with my hon. Friend. The European single market has helped the UK economy over the last couple of decades. We want to see it completed further and we want to see the services directive properly implemented. Competition has brought great benefits not just to the economy, but to European consumers, including those in this country. To my mind, that is what the European Union exists to do. It should make its contribution to growth across the continent.
Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) (Con)
Will my right hon. Friend assure my constituents that the euro preparations unit has been abolished and that under this Government it will never be re-established?
Mr Osborne
That is an easy assurance for me to give to my hon. Friend’s constituents. There was a euro preparations unit in the Treasury when I arrived. It was shut down and it will not be reopened.
Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con)
Can my right hon. Friend confirm that when the previous Government signed this country up to the Nice treaty 10 years ago, they also signed away our veto on financial assistance to European nations?
Mr Osborne
I can confirm that we have lost our veto on financial assistance. That was one of the issues with the so-called EFSM—the European financial stabilisation mechanism—which was the EU27 bail-out fund, which we joined a couple of days before this Government were created. Getting us out of it—[Interruption.] The former Chancellor’s memoirs are very clear about this.
Mr Osborne
The former Chancellor wrote them! What I would say to my hon. Friend is that we did not have the power to veto disbursements from the EFSM, so we had to negotiate our way out of it. That is precisely what the British Prime Minister has done.
Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con)
We hear Labour Members suggesting that Britain is somehow isolated from other members at the EU table, but does the Chancellor agree that what they forget is that by refusing to rule out joining the euro and by insisting that more powers be ceded to Brussels, they are isolating themselves from the broad mass of the British people?
Mr Osborne
I completely agree with my hon. Friend. It is a remarkable position for the Labour leader to take when he says:
“I don’t think Brussels has too much power.”
What sort of negotiation would it be if he were in charge?
Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con)
I, too, welcome the Chancellor’s efforts to protect British taxpayers from further bail-outs. I also welcome his statement that the International Monetary Fund exists to support countries that cannot support themselves, but I reiterate my concern that the IMF does not end up supporting a currency if a country chooses not to take the right action.
Mr Osborne
My hon. Friend has made a good point. The IMF exists to support countries, and supports 53 at present. It does not exist to support currencies.
Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con)
Can the Chancellor tell us how on earth it can be the case that, although it has a larger deficit than Greece, the United Kingdom enjoys German levels of interest rates?
Mr Osborne
That is because this Government, in the teeth of opposition from the Labour party—which created this mess—have established fiscal credibility, brought our interest rates down, and ensured that while we may talk about the bail-out of some European countries, we are not talking about the bail-out of Britain.
Extraordinary ECOFIN
George Osborne Excerpts(13 years ago)
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The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne)
An extraordinary meeting of the Economic and Financial Affairs Council was held in Brussels on 22 October 2011.
The Council met to prepare the European Council meeting of 23 October as regards measures to stabilise the situation on financial markets, restore confidence, and foster economic growth and employment. It held an exchange of views on bank recapitalisation and funding as part of a comprehensive strategy to be defined by the European Council and by Heads of State and Government of the euro area.
I emphasised the importance of a decisive co-ordinated recapitalisation as part of a comprehensive solution to the euro crisis, and that this should be accompanied by reform of Europe’s banking sector. I also underlined that there should be no watering down of state aid rules.
The president of the Council presented the outcome of the meeting to the European Council, and it was reflected in the European Council conclusions as follows:
“The European Council welcomes progress made by the Council (ECOFIN) on measures for the banking sector and invites the Council to finalise this work at its meeting of 26 October. These measures will be an essential component of a broader package whose other elements will be agreed by the Euro Summit of 26 October.”
Extraordinary ECOFIN (22 October 2011)
George Osborne Excerpts(13 years, 1 month ago)
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The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne)
An extraordinary meeting of the Economic and Financial Affairs Council will be held in Brussels on 22 October 2011.
Finance Ministers will discuss preparation of the 23 October European Council.
The current draft European Council conclusions include language on:
economic policy: growth; energy, research and innovation; investment; economic governance; the European semester; financial regulation; ratification of the European financial stability facility; and external trade;
preparation for the Cannes G20 summit;
climate change; and
foreign policy.
ECOFIN is likely to focus its attention on the situation in the euro area. I will continue to emphasise the importance of the euro area delivering a truly comprehensive solution to the situation in the euro area, which ring-fences vulnerable euro area countries, recapitalises Europe’s banks and resolves uncertainty about Greece, ahead of the G20 summit in Cannes on 3-4 November.
ECOFIN 4 October 2011
George Osborne Excerpts(13 years, 1 month ago)
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The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne)
The Economic and Financial Affairs Council was held in Luxembourg on 4 October 2011. The Financial Secretary and I represented the UK. The following items were discussed:
Regulation on over-the-counter derivatives, central counterparties and trade repositories (EMIR)
Prior to the meeting, the Government were clear that the regulation as it stood was unacceptable. In line with concerns raised previously by the European Union Committee, I therefore made it clear that a number of changes to the text were needed, including:
in order for the college to block an authorisation of a central counterparty (CCP), all members of the college, excluding the relevant National Competent Authority (NCA), must vote against it;
wording in an article that would forbid any decisions on CCPs being made on a basis that would discriminate against any member state as a venue for clearing services in any currency;
in order to foster competition, provisions requiring open access to CCPs and trading venues for over-the-counter (OTC) derivatives, as well as a public statement from the Commission that full fair and open access would be dealt with properly in forthcoming legislation;
a public declaration that the issue of scope and adequate coverage to meet the G20 agreement would be dealt with in upcoming legislation; and
a clear statement that the drafting of third country provisions required further work, which will be completed in the context of negotiations with the European Parliament.
With these conditions met, the Council agreed a general approach. The presidency, on behalf of the Council, will now start negotiations with the European Parliament, with a view to reaching agreement at First Reading.
Legislative proposals on economic governance
The Council agreed to a compromise text on the package of six legislative proposals. The Government are content with the package, which will strengthen economic governance in the EU, while respecting the UK’s fiscal sovereignty. The Council will formally adopt the proposals without further discussion once the texts have been finalised in all official languages.
European Central Bank (ECB): nomination of an executive board member
The Council adopted a recommendation on the nomination of Jörg Asmussen to the executive board of the ECB, to succeed Jürgen Stark, who announced his resignation on 9 September. The Government are content with this recommendation; matters related to the ECB are for euro area member states to decide. The Council’s recommendation will be submitted for a decision to the European Council, after consulting the European Parliament and the ECB’s governing council.
Information on the informal ECOFIN meeting
The presidency gave a de-brief of the September informal ECOFIN, and presented a proposal for the ECOFIN Council to assess the impact of new EU legislation on growth and jobs. This was then discussed over lunch, with the Government offering support. Officials will now produce a formal proposal, which will be discussed at a future ECOFIN.
Review of the fiscal exit strategy
Finance Ministers agreed Council conclusions on the implications of lower growth on excessive deficit procedure and stability and growth pact targets. The Government support these conclusions, which are in line with domestic fiscal policy and the emerging international debate on differentiating fiscal strategies between countries. The conclusions will feed into the European Council debate on EU growth on 23 October.
Implementation of the Excessive Deficit Procedure (EDP)
ECOFIN held an exchange of views on implementation of the EDP following recent developments. The Government welcome the emphasis on ensuring that all member states fully implement budgetary strategies for timely meeting of fiscal targets. The Commission will provide a more comprehensive analysis in their autumn forecast.
Follow-up to the IMF Annual Meetings on 24 September 2011, and the G20 Finance Ministers and Central Bank Governors’ meeting on 22 September 2011
The Council was informed by the presidency and the French delegation, in its capacity as G20 presidency, of the outcome of the meetings.
Preparation of G20 Finance Ministers and Central Bank Governors’ meeting on 14-15 October
The Council endorsed the EU terms of reference, which will form the basis of the EU’s contribution to the meeting of G20 Finance Ministers on 14-15 October. The Government are content with the terms of reference, which emphasise the need for determined action to maintain financial stability, restore confidence, and support growth. The G20 meeting is expected to cover the following issues: responding effectively to the current challenges in the global economy through the G20 framework for growth; financial regulation; commodities; reform of the international monetary system; and climate change financing and development.
Preparation of the UN Framework Convention on Climate Change (UNFCCC). Durban
Finance Ministers adopted conclusions on climate finance ahead of the Durban conference of the parties to be held 28 November to 9 December, 2011. The Government support these conclusions which reflect our position on climate finance.
Economic situation
Over breakfast, Finance Ministers received a de-brief of the previous evening’s Eurogroup meeting, and held an exchange of views on the economic situation. I emphasised the importance of the euro area delivering a truly comprehensive solution to the situation in the euro area, which ring-fences vulnerable euro area countries, recapitalises Europe’s banks and resolves uncertainty about Greece, ahead of the G20 summit in Cannes on 3-4 November.
Jobs and Growth
George Osborne Excerpts(13 years, 1 month ago)
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The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne)
I welcome this opportunity to discuss the very difficult economic situation that this country and the rest of the western world face at the moment. After that vaudeville act, I am trying to remember whether the shadow Chancellor actually set out the five-point plan. He did not actually go through it, so we will go through it for him.
Of course, the concern of everyone here is to see growth, support jobs and get Britain through this debt storm; that is what we are talking about and working on. As this is an Opposition day, however, before I turn to what the Government are doing it is worth considering what the Opposition propose, and what the shadow Chancellor did and did not say. We should consider what his political friends, as well as his political opponents, are saying about him.
The right hon. Gentleman dismissed the intervention by one of my hon. Friends about Charles Clarke—[Interruption.] Well, there you go. It was not picked up by the microphones, but the shadow Chancellor just dismissively said, “Charles Clarke!” The Opposition dismiss everyone with whom they served in government. They boo their ex-Prime Ministers, they dismiss their ex-Ministers. Here is what the man who was the Labour Home Secretary said, not weeks ago but yesterday:
“I think the Labour conference failed to come across strongly with an alternative to what the Government is doing. I think the economic proposition that Labour puts at the moment is unconvincing…we are simply dismissed by most people thinking about the most central question facing the country today, which is the economy.”
That is the verdict not of the Conservative party, the Liberal Democrats or anyone else but of former members of the Labour Cabinet.
If we want to know why the shadow Chancellor is failing to convince the country, let alone his own party, of why he has not come forward with a convincing alternative, I suggest that we focus on three things that were not in his speech. I will cover each in turn. First, there was absolutely no plan to deal with the deficit. There was a not a single suggestion of how public expenditure could be saved. Let us remember what he said—
Mr Osborne
I will in a moment, because perhaps the hon. Gentleman can respond to this point.
The shadow Chancellor said, when we debated the matter in August, that he would set out
“a tough, medium-term plan to get our deficit down”.—[Official Report, 11 August 2011; Vol. 531, c. 1110.]
Mr Osborne
He nods, but where on earth is that tough, medium-term plan to get the deficit down? It was promised two months ago. Where are the cuts that he would make? He should give us some examples. We have been waiting for three years for ideas from the Labour party about what it would cut, and none has been forthcoming. The former Chancellor, the right hon. Member for Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling), who is in his place, was pretty revealing in his memoir about what was actually going on. He stated that
“the ‘investment versus cuts’ argument…simply wasn’t credible…I did want some examples of things we were prepared to cut. I could see, though, that there was no appetite for this in No. 10.”
And we know who was advising the occupant of No. 10 Downing street at the time.
Ed Balls
The International Monetary Fund has stated that if the UK has a period of stagnation or contraction, the Government should change course and delay their planned tax rise and spending cuts. The economy has flatlined since the autumn, with zero growth. Does that represent the sustained stagnation that would cause the Chancellor to take the IMF’s advice and change course?
Mr Osborne
The right hon. Gentleman quotes the IMF, but its managing director said a month ago that
“in the United Kingdom strong fiscal consolidation is essential to restore debt sustainability… The policy stance remains appropriate.”
The right hon. Gentleman also quoted the OECD, saying that it was telling me to change course, but the OECD’s chief economist, whom he used to quote in the House, says:
“The Government should not change its course. A cut in the VAT…would not be appropriate in our view.”
So before the shadow Chancellor bandies around the recommendations of international organisations, he should quote them properly in the House.
Ed Balls
I will quote them verbatim. The Chancellor quoted the IMF from September and the OECD from before the summer, but let me quote the IMF from October, just two weeks ago. It stated:
“If activity were to undershoot”—[Interruption.]
Let me read it, because the Chancellor has asked for the full quote, which is from October.
“If activity were to undershoot current expectations and risk a period of stagnation or contraction, countries that face historically low yields (for example, Germany and the United Kingdom) should also consider delaying some of their planned consolidation.”
Is that stagnation and contraction in place, and has it been in place for long enough yet to justify his taking the IMF’s advice of just two weeks ago?
Mr Osborne
In precisely the advice that the right hon. Gentleman reads out, the IMF, in its current forecasts for the UK economy, is very specific that the UK should not change its fiscal stance. It has consistently recommended that this country undertake credible deficit reduction. The Government have set out many proposals—controversial proposals—to get our budget deficit down, but in the 16 months that we have been in office we have heard not one single suggestion from the shadow Chancellor on how he would get the deficit down.
Mr Osborne
I will take the hon. Gentleman’s intervention in a second.
Last week, the Opposition tabled an amendment to the Welfare Reform Bill that would have cost this country £11 billion. That one amendment on one day in this House of Commons shows how completely incredible they are.
Mr Osborne
The policies that we have set out deliver the low interest rates that are essential for economic growth.
Nadhim Zahawi
The shadow Chancellor has quoted the IMF. Why does the Chancellor think that the Labour party voted against our subscription to the IMF? Why did the Labour Government not put their best people to work to deal with the deficit and the debt, but instead hire 17 people and spend £4.8 million on the euro preparation unit?
Mr Osborne
My hon. Friend reminds me that one of the first things I did in the Treasury was shut down the euro preparation unit. More importantly—
Mr Osborne
The shadow Chancellor, who has just been quoting the IMF, wants to intervene again, but let me say this, because my hon. Friend the Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Nadhim Zahawi) reminds me of another important point. Will the shadow Chancellor explain why he led his party—not everyone in his party, because I can see in the Chamber some prominent Labour Members who chose not to vote in that Division—into voting against a quota increase to the IMF, which was a central part of the London G20 summit chaired by the previous Prime Minister? How on earth does he think he could be taken seriously in any of the international meetings taking place at the moment if he had succeeded in winning that vote? Why did he do it?
Ed Balls
As the former chair of the IMF deputies, I am a huge supporter of the IMF. The rise in subscriptions is important, but for the Chancellor to try to ram it through the House before he sorted out the flawed European stability mechanism was a mistake—we voted against because we had doubts about his European policy.
However, to come back to my earlier intervention, let me ask the Chancellor this question again. Unemployment is rising, and output has been flat for a year: how much longer does he have to wait before he takes the IMF’s advice and changes his deficit reduction plan? How bad does it have to get?
Mr Osborne
We are sorting out the mess that we inherited from the Labour party. Much as I wish that that could be done overnight, it cannot. So great was the hole into which they put the British economy that it takes time and effort to come out of it.
Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)
Before my right hon. Friend was distracted, he quoted the previous Chancellor, who writes in his memoirs of his last pre-Budget report. He says that any coherent strategy would have been better than none, but that the previous Government simply did not have one. Are not the facts of the matter that the Labour party did not have a coherent economic strategy before the last general election, and that it still does not have one, as we all clearly heard this afternoon in the knockabout speech by the shadow Chancellor?
Mr Osborne
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The previous Chancellor’s memoirs reveal the very divisive role that the shadow Chancellor played in stopping the previous Labour Government coming up with a coherent economic policy and a credible economic plan, and even in stopping Nos. 10 and 11 talking to each other.
Mr Osborne
I shall tell the hon. Gentleman what I inherited as Chancellor and what this country inherited from the previous Government: we inherited the second deepest recession in the entire world. The hon. Gentleman talks about GDP, but we had the biggest fall in GDP of any country in the world with the sole exception of Japan.
Mr Osborne
I will give way in a moment, because I want to ask Opposition Members some questions. The House is today asked to support an Opposition motion that would add another £20 billion to the structural deficit. They maintain the fiction that they are sticking with the so-called Darling plan on the deficit—[Interruption.] That is what they say. Does the shadow Chancellor agree?
Mr Osborne
Okay. The motion tears up the Darling plan—it is £27 billion off the plan set out in the March 2010 Budget. That is the truth.
Mr Osborne
I shall give way to the parliamentary private secretary to the former Prime Minister to defend his record.
Alison McGovern
I will defend the record of our former Prime Minister any day of the week, but will the Chancellor defend his own record, and tell the House how far away he is from his deficit payback plan?
Mr Osborne
The hon. Lady has to defend the record of the former Prime Minister because he never turns up in this House to defend it himself.
The one thing that we want to avoid in a debt crisis is a sharp rise in interest rates, but that is what the motion would bring about. Let me give the House some new information.
Mr Osborne
I will give way in a moment. Let me make progress. Do not worry: there will be lots of opportunities for Opposition Members to answer my questions.
I can give the House new information on what just a 1% rise in interest rates would mean for this country at the moment. Such a rise would cost British families an additional £10 billion a year in higher mortgage payments and the British Government an additional £6 billion a year in higher interest costs, and it would increase our net payments to foreign creditors by around £15 billion a year—£15 billion that would leave our economy. Given the sums involved, the impact on family mortgages and small business loans would completely outweigh any fiscal effects of the proposals in the shadow Chancellor’s motion.
Mr Osborne
I said that I would give way in a moment. Labour’s approach would lead to a credit downgrade of this country. The shadow Chancellor shakes his head, but there is no doubt about that any more. This is what the credit rating agency, Standard & Poor’s—[Laughter.] Opposition Members laugh at the credit rating agencies and the need for this country to preserve its triple A credit rating, but Standard & Poor’s says that the ratings would
“come under downward pressure if the Coalition’s commitment to fiscal consolidation falters”.
That is what we would get under Labour: a downgrade to our credit rating, higher interest rates and the economy sent into a tailspin.
Mr Osborne
I give way to the right hon. Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Frank Dobson).
Frank Dobson (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab)
Why does the Chancellor give such credence to Standard & Poor’s, which gave triple A ratings to every stupid, risk-taking banker, including those in Northern Rock? Standard & Poor’s advised Northern Rock on one of its products for about a year, and then surprisingly gave Northern Rock a triple A rating. Why should we take any notice of people like that?
Mr Osborne
That, of course, is the attitude of the Labour party. It ignores entirely the views of the world bond markets and the credit rating agencies. That is exactly the approach that got Britain into this economic mess. Because the Government have a credible plan, we are pulling this country out of that mess.
Jesse Norman
Does the Chancellor share my amazement at the lack of reality on the Opposition Benches? The eurozone is in crisis, the credit markets for the banking system across Europe are in desperate straits, and yields are rising, and yet the Opposition would squander £20 billion to £30 billion and increase our deficit.
Mr Osborne
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Low interest rates are a precious commodity for the UK at the moment, and Members of the House, sent here to represent their constituents, have to ask themselves, “Do we really want an increase in interest rates at this time?” Is that what we want? It is what the motion would lead to.
Mr Osborne
I shall give way to the member of the Treasury Select Committee, the hon. Member for Edmonton (Mr Love) and then the representative of the Scottish National party, the hon. Member for Dundee East (Stewart Hosie), and then I shall make some progress.
Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op)
How can the Chancellor possibly describe as credible a deficit reduction programme that ends up increasing debt by £46 billion?
Mr Osborne
As I have said, the British structural deficit is coming down because of the measures that we are taking, but the proposal put to the House today would push the budget deficit this year into double figures. No country in the world would consider that a sensible approach at a time such as this for a country such as Britain. It is economic nonsense, and I suspect that the hon. Gentleman knows it.
Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP)
I thank the Minister for giving way. He is being very generous. May I take him back to his exchange with the shadow Chancellor on IMF quotes? On 20 September, Monsieur Decressin, the senior adviser to the IMF research department, said that the IMF view was that
“policies in…the UK should only be loosened if growth really threatens to slow down substantially, relative to what we are forecasting. For so long as the forecast seems to pan out, there is no reason to change fiscal plans.”
The IMF has set down a marker for growth and, in effect, said that if it falls substantially, as it is doing, it would accept fiscal loosening. Does the Chancellor recognise that if growth continues to flatline or fall, there is at least an argument for fiscal loosening?
Mr Osborne
The IMF is clear that on its forecasts, which are some of the more pessimistic forecasts for the UK at the moment, it is not recommending a change in policy stance. That is what it says. It is what the managing director has said; what the article 4 report on the UK said; what the OECD is saying; and what all the business organisations in Britain are saying. That is why the path that the shadow Chancellor has laid out for the country is so incredible and does nothing to deal with the problems that he left to the country.
Richard Fuller
In response to the question from the hon. Member for Dundee East (Stewart Hosie), I would say that that is not the answer to a debt recession, because a debt recession relies on credibility. One of the key points in the motion is that the Labour party’s so-called plan would provide, through a temporary reverse of the VAT increase, a benefit of £450 for every couple with children. Has the Chancellor worked out the benefit to average families in the country of maintaining the credibility of our country’s finances and ensuring lower interest rates?
Mr Osborne
As I was just explaining, a 1% rise in interest rates—I am not talking about the level of interest rates in Spain and Italy—would mean £10 billion in higher mortgage bills for British families. That is the reality of what the shadow Chancellor is proposing.
Mr Osborne
I shall take the right hon. Gentleman’s intervention, and then I shall make some progress and give way again later.
Ed Balls
The former chief economist at the Cabinet Office, who actually drew up the plan B that the Chancellor then shelved, said in August:
“Low long-term interest rates appear to reflect economic weakness and lack of market confidence in the prospects of the UK economy, not the reverse.”
Is the Chancellor saying that the former chief economist at the Cabinet Office, now head of the National Institute of Economic and Social Research, is wrong to say that low interest rates are a sign of lack of confidence and prospects for growth?
Mr Osborne
I am glad that I took that intervention, because the implication is that the shadow Chancellor wants higher interest rates in Britain. That is the revelation we have just heard from him, and it tells us everything about what he is proposing: a catchy five-point plan—the clue is in the title—for a conference speech that would put Britain back at the mercy of the international bond markets, with higher interest rates affecting families and businesses and causing homes to be repossessed and jobs to be lost. We will have no part in it.
Mr Osborne
I have already given way quite a bit. I shall give way again later when I have dealt with this point and when perhaps the shadow Chancellor can answer the questions that I am about to put to him.
Ed Balls
The Chancellor—the Chancellor!—must be the only person in the whole country who thinks that to have Bank of England interest rates at less than 1% for three months is a sign of economic strength, not of the fact that our economy has not grown for a year and that unemployment is rising. The long-term interest rates at the long end of the curve are a reflection of expectations that those interest rates will stay persistently low. The former chief economist said that they
“reflect economic weakness and lack of market confidence in the prospects of the UK economy, not the reverse”.
Is the Chancellor saying that Jonathan Portes, from the National Institute of Economic and Social Research, is wrong?
Mr Osborne
My first point is that Jonathan Portes and I have had our disagreements for the past 16 months. He was not my appointment to the Government, but the shadow Chancellor’s, and he is not working for the Government any more. The second thing I want to say is that he cannot have it both ways. He cannot say that Britain is alone in facing these problems, which was the implication of his speech, and then not look at long-term interest rates—or, indeed, the short-term interest rates—in the United States and Germany, which are lower than ours, although we are close to them. [Interruption.] The shadow Chancellor says that they are weak. One of our problems is that the German, US and French economies have ground to a halt. That is why we also need a solution to the eurozone crisis, which has hit all western economies. His idea that Britain is unique in the world in facing these problems is frankly laughable.
Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab)
My constituents listening to this will be unable to comprehend all the statistics that the Chancellor is placing in front of us. However, we are missing the human dimension. In Rotherham, for the first time in nearly 20 years, unemployment today rose above 10%. That is taking us back to the south Yorkshire de-industrialisation of the 1980s. We are talking about real people. Does the Chancellor have even the tiniest nanoscintilla of doubt about his policy? He has been in charge for nearly 18 months. Does he have any concerns that perhaps his policy is not working?
Mr Osborne
I am clear that what we are doing is tough but necessary because of the very difficult situation that we inherited. The right hon. Gentleman talked about the impact in south Yorkshire. We inherited a record budget deficit and a bigger recession than in any other country in the world apart from Japan. That is what we are recovering from. Arguably, it was the biggest banking crash in the entire history of the country—at a time when those banks were supposed to have been regulated by the Government of which he was a Minister. That is what we are dealing with. Of course, it is extremely difficult, and many countries are facing problems at the moment, but I think that the steps that we have taken have helped us to weather this global debt storm and kept interest rates low for people in Rotherham. I shall come on to the steps that we can take to ensure that Rotherham does not suffer in the future as it has done in recent years under the Labour Government.
Mr Osborne
I shall make some progress and then take some more interventions.
I shall touch briefly—because we covered this during Monday’s statement—on the situation in the eurozone. I set out on Monday what I felt was needed and what many in the world now feel is needed: we need to ring-fence the eurozone by giving its bail-out fund maximum power; recapitalise Europe’s banks when they are weak; resolve the situation in Greece; and then set out the path to the political and economic changes required to make monetary union work, with greater fiscal integration and improvement in competitiveness on the periphery. I said that Britain wanted no part in the fiscal integration, but that we want to protect our say in the single market, financial services and competition issues. We also want the whole of the UK to become more competitive—with a more complete single market and freer trade.
Since Monday’s statement, we have had the news that the Slovakian Parliament has voted down the proposed changes to the eurozone financial fund—the European financial stability facility—which is clearly a disappointment. We all hope that it will pass in the coming days and urge the Slovakian Parliament to pass it. What has also been disappointing in the past couple of days is the suggestion from the President of the European Commission that Britain should make a direct contribution to eurozone bail-outs. Britain chose not to join the euro and the British Prime Minister has fought hard to get Britain out of the bail-out fund to which the previous Government signed us up. I want to make it clear that whatever the Commission President says, British taxpayers will not be contributing to the eurozone’s bail-out of Greece—full stop. However, we will work with our eurozone partners to help them to resolve the crisis and work with our international partners in institutions such as the IMF to ensure that they have the resources to deal with the problems across the world.
I said that the first thing missing from the shadow Chancellor’s speech was a credible deficit plan, but there was—
Mr Osborne
Let me make just a little bit of progress and then I shall give way.
There was an absolutely staggering second omission from the shadow Chancellor’s speech, which was any reference—I will take an intervention if I have got this wrong—to Labour’s big new economic policy idea, which was unveiled at the Labour conference two weeks ago. I am referring, in case hon. Members have forgotten, to that great plan to divide British businesses into producers and predators—good and bad—and to levy different tax rates on them. Remember the speech from the Labour leader? Did the shadow Chancellor have any part in writing that speech?
Mr Osborne
At last there is something we agree on. It was absolutely the speech that we wanted to hear from the Labour leader at the Labour conference. I want to know what happened to this great idea, which was the centrepiece of Labour’s growth strategy for the new economy. Two weeks later it is not even referred to in the motion that we are being asked to debate. It is like the Lord Lucan of policy ideas: we do not know whether it is dead already or whether it has just gone missing for ever. I was really disappointed, because we know that the shadow Chancellor likes to cover all the policy areas in the shadow Cabinet and I was hoping for an explanation from him about how the idea was going to work. Are we supposed to grow our economy by levying new taxes and regulations on companies owned by private equity firms such as Boots, T-Mobile, the AA, Saga, Somerfield, Legoland and Chessington World of Adventures, those well-known centres of predatory business activity? [Laughter.] It would be laughable if it were not the centrepiece of the Opposition’s economic policy.
Mr Osborne
The Prime Minister gave his speech, which the shadow Chancellor should have paid close attention to, and made it absolutely clear that people are paying off their credit cards—because of the situation that the Labour party has left this country in—but I would ask the shadow Chancellor this question. He had a chance before; will he please mention—just once, in one intervention—the policy of the Labour leader? Come on, just get up and say you support it.
Ed Balls
I think the research and development tax credit to encourage and incentivise investment in research and development was a good thing. I think our proposal to cut national insurance for small companies that take on more employees is a good policy. It was in the Leader of the Opposition’s speech; it was in our five-point plan; it is in the motion—so why do Government Members not vote for it?
Mr Osborne
I guess that is called an “Ed Balls endorsement”—that is what the last Chancellor and Tony Blair got used to. We increased the R and D tax credit for small businesses in the Budget, so we have taken that idea—which we came up with—and introduced it. I am very pleased that the Labour party now supports it, but what about this idea that a Labour Chancellor would sit there in No. 11 with his home-made scales of justice weighing up the companies he likes and those he does not like and levying different levels of tax on them? What happened to that? It was the centrepiece of the Labour conference two weeks ago, and it shows why Labour simply cannot be trusted to run the economy of this country and why it has become the anti-business party again.
Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland) (Lab)
I thank the Chancellor for giving way. It is interesting that he brings up those points, but can he please tell us where the ghost—or the ghoul—of the regional growth fund is? It has now been six months and the north-east is still waiting for the regional growth fund money that it was promised. Businesses are hanging on the wire for that money. Will he please tell us where that cash is?
Mr Osborne
Again, that was another opportunity to talk about Labour’s big economy idea. The hon. Gentleman did not take it, but I am glad that he raised the regional growth fund, which has allocated money to the north-east and other parts of the country. That money is flowing and those projects will get going. We are also setting up enterprise zones in Teesside and Tyneside, and doing what we can to get the north-east economy, which also suffered in recent years, on the front foot, creating private sector jobs so that that region, too, has prosperity.
Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con)
I am grateful to the Chancellor for giving way. I welcome the work that he and his colleagues are doing on a growth strategy, which he said is needed. A big component of that is the £75 billion of quantitative easing. We are also told that there will be credit easing to get the money into private companies. Will that be on top of the £75 billion injection or within it?
Mr Osborne
It will be on top of the £75 billion. I have not gone through the QE and credit easing policies in detail today because I went through them in the House on Monday, but I would be happy to do so if Members like. QE is an operation undertaken by the Bank of England under the procedures established by my predecessor. The credit easing options that we are looking at involve the Treasury—or rather the Government—using its balance sheet to get money to small businesses either by purchasing securitised small loans, purchasing mid-cap company bonds in the bond market or issuing guarantees through the banking system. All those things currently happen in Britain, but on a very small scale. Our intention is greatly to increase them, and I will set out the proposals in November.
David Wright (Telford) (Lab)
I am grateful to the Chancellor for letting me intervene. Would he be willing to release all the information relating to meetings and discussions that he had with the Governor of the Bank of England on introducing the latest phase of QE, and does he anticipate that we may need more?
Mr Osborne
No, and not even in my memoirs, because the conversations between the Chancellor and the Governor of the Bank of England should be confidential. However, let me make it absolutely clear to the hon. Gentleman that we are talking about an entirely independent decision by the Monetary Policy Committee—not just the Governor of the Bank—and that I followed exactly the procedures established by my predecessor.
Mr Osborne
No, I will make some progress and then perhaps take an intervention from the hon. Gentleman.
We did not hear today about the big Labour idea on the economy that was unveiled two weeks ago. Hitting businesses with more taxes and more regulation at a time like this is absolutely the wrong thing. The way to help businesses to create jobs is to give them competitive tax rates. That is why we have cut corporation tax this year—we have three more cuts to come—and why we have reversed the proposed Labour increase in the small companies tax rate and frozen business rates for all. It is also why we have set up a series of schemes to help unemployed people who have either just lost their jobs or never had a job into the labour market by getting them work. We have launched the biggest back-to-work scheme that the country has seen in 80 years and funded 250,000 more apprenticeships and 100,000 work experience places. Today we have launched the new sector-based work academies to help tens of thousands of young people with training and job interviews. Youth unemployment in this country has been rising since 2004. The last Government did next to nothing to confront it; we are rolling up our sleeves and getting stuck in to sort out this long-term problem for Britain.
Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)
The Chancellor has been very generous in giving way, although not so generous in actually answering the questions that he has been asked. He has just laid out all the things that he is doing to put things right, yet the economy is flatlining, with record youth unemployment and no growth back in the economy. What is he going to do to improve the situation? Does he not recognise that we cannot just cut the deficit if we do not have growth?
Mr Osborne
We would not have growth if there was a big increase in interest rates. Let us look at other countries in the world that do not have a credible plan to deal with their deficits. Of course this is a difficult time, when many western economies have this problem, but we are taking the tough steps necessary to get the economy going and make it easier for businesses to hire people, which brings me on—
Mr Osborne
I will take interventions in a moment, because I want to know the Labour attitude to these policies that we are proposing.
We are proposing to extend the probation period before a new employee can make an unfair dismissal claim from one to two years. We are also proposing to introduce, for the first time ever, a fee that someone has to pay before they can take a case to an employment tribunal and which they get back if they win. Those are two difficult measures; they are controversial, but they will make it easier and less risky for businesses to hire people. I want to know whether the Labour party will support those measures when they come before the House of Commons. Will it? I want to know whether the right hon. Gentleman will support these things when they come before the House of Commons. Yes or no?
Mr Osborne
It is not going to hit people; it is going to help people into work. I want to know another thing from the shadow Chancellor. I have made it clear that this proposal is going to help people to get into work and help businesses to hire men and women to do jobs without taking the risk that they might bring an unfair dismissal claim within the first couple of years. He kept talking about the Federation of Small Businesses in his speech; it supports the proposal. Does he? It is a simple question. Yes or no?
Mr Osborne
No, no—I am talking about claims for unfair dismissal, and I want to know whether the right hon. Gentleman supports those proposals. This is not about statutory maternity pay; it is about extending the probation period for unfair dismissal.
Here is another question for the Labour party. The trade unions are proposing to go on strike this autumn. That is what they are balloting on. I think everyone in the House would agree that a strike is absolutely the worst thing for the British economy at the moment, and I want to know whether Labour will support that strike or condemn it. Is the shadow Chancellor going to condemn the strike—yes or no? And I do not want any weasel words about a proper negotiation process; I want to know whether, if it comes to a strike, he will condemn it.
Ed Balls
The whole country wants to avoid a strike, but that will require this Chancellor to change his proposals on a deeply unfair 3% rise in pension contributions. We can avoid a strike, but it will require this inflexible Chancellor to do the right thing, not the wrong thing.
Mr Osborne
That is another thing that Labour refuses to condemn. There we have it. We asked the former Labour Work and Pensions Secretary, Lord Hutton, to do a report for us. In his interim report, he set out a case for increased contributions. In his final report, he set out proposals for the defined benefit. We are negotiating on the basis of that. I want to know whether, if it comes to a strike, the people who are paid for by the trade unions are going to condemn trade union activity that would be the wrong thing for the British economy at the moment. Will the shadow Chancellor condemn it?
Bill Esterson
The only people in this country who want a strike are the people sitting on the Government Benches, because they think that they will get a short-term political gain from it. The Chancellor has mentioned interest rates a number of times. Is it not the truth that they, and confidence, are low because the economy has ground to a standstill because of his policies? Will he confirm that?
Mr Osborne
I will tell the hon. Gentleman what would damage confidence: a strike by the trade unions this autumn. Opposition Members are the people who are paid for by the trade unions, and I want to know whether they are going to condemn the strike or not.
Mr Osborne
I will make a bit of progress before I give way.
Not only are we taking measures to make it easier to employ people and putting in place measures to get people back into work—[Interruption.] They are not going to hit women; they are going to help women get into work. We have also announced new investment in local transport links. We are spending more on roads and railways than the last Labour Government did. We have plans for 200,000 new homes, many of them on the back of a new right to buy. We have created two dozen new enterprise zones, and this month committed almost £250 million to world-beating scientific research. That is because, unlike the last Government, we think it is important that things are made in Britain again.
Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con)
The Chancellor has just told us that there have been £31 billion of extra Labour spending pledges—£11 billion from an amendment last week and £20 billion today. Given that we already pay £120 million every day in debt interest, can he tell us how much extra debt interest we would be paying every day if those Labour proposals went through?
Mr Osborne
I have not got that calculation on me, but I will certainly give it to my hon. Friend and use it at a future opportunity, because it is a reminder that this money is coming directly out of the Government coffers in debt interest payments every single day.
Mr Osborne
I will make a little progress, as I know that many people want to speak in the debate.
We have taken steps to try to help people who are facing this difficult situation. We have announced a freeze in council tax, not just this year but next year, and we have taken more than 1 million people out of income tax and delivered an income tax cut for 20 million more. The shadow Chancellor often talks about fairness in paying for all those things, but I want to know why, in all the years that he was chief economic adviser to the previous Government, he blocked and never introduced a permanent bank levy. Why did he never introduce a higher charge for long-staying non-doms? Why did he never conclude a tax treaty with Switzerland to get back some of the money that should be paid into the British Exchequer?
Mr Osborne
I will give way to the right hon. Gentleman after I have made this point. His only achievement in that field was to introduce a capital gains tax regime so riddled with loopholes that some of the richest people in this country boasted about paying less tax than the people who cleaned their houses. Is he proud of that record?
Mr Osborne
The IFS says that child poverty is rising, but the reason it is rising is that the right hon. Gentleman put this country into a complete economic mess. I can see my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions standing at the Bar of the House. He is introducing universal credit, which will do more than any other measure to bring child poverty down, to give opportunities to people who have none at all, and to ensure that work pays. That is what we are doing, and I want to know whether the shadow Chancellor supports that. Does he?
Ed Balls
I support welfare reform—[Hon. Members: “Ah!”] Of course I do, but I have to say that I hope the Chancellor will give the Work and Pensions Secretary the money to make it work. The IFS said this week that any gain in child poverty through universal credit would be more than swamped by the Chancellor’s other measures, particularly the change from RPI to CPI, so that the fall in child poverty under Labour would be reversed under the Tories. Is the IFS right?
Mr Osborne
I thought that Labour supported the link to CPI. Is the shadow Chancellor changing his mind on that? In the debates, the Labour party supported the link to CPI, and he has just raised the matter. Has he changed his mind? [Interruption.] Thank God he has a new shadow Chief Secretary to give him the answer.
Ed Balls
We have always said that we would support a temporary rise in CPI during this Parliament, but that we would not support a permanent rise. It is a permanent rise that will see child poverty rising year on year under the Tories. Child poverty fell under Labour; it will rise under the Tories. That tells us everything that we need to know.
Mr Osborne
The shadow Chancellor is all over the place. He was asking me about child poverty numbers in 2012, 2013 and 2014, and he said that, according to the IFS, the principal cause of the rise was a policy to link benefit increases to CPI. That is a policy supported for this Parliament—that is, in 2012, 2013 and 2014—by the Labour Opposition, and it is complete hypocrisy for them to complain about it now. Will the shadow Chancellor confirm that he supports the CPI policy for this Parliament—yes or no?
Mr Osborne
We have kept that target, but the right hon. Gentleman has still not confirmed that—[Interruption.] I welcome the shadow Chief Secretary to her position, but I have to tell her that the shadow Chancellor has just raised with me the question of the IFS estimates on child poverty over this Parliament. The IFS says that one of the principal causes is the policy on the link to CPI. That is the IFS’s view, although universal credit will do a huge amount to offset that impact. It is a policy supported by the Labour party, and it is completely hypocritical of the Labour party to come to this Parliament and raise those statistics and complain about that policy when they said they supported it all along.
Mr Osborne
Let me make a little progress, as I know many Members want to speak.
I shall touch finally and briefly on the last thing missing from the shadow Chancellor’s speech—and we all know what that was. It was an apology for everything that had gone wrong. The right hon. Gentleman has apologised for so many things now—for the worst banking crash in our history, the 10p tax rate, the 75p pensions increase, gold, although I am not sure that he has apologised for that, the feuds in Downing street—yet he still refuses to apologise for spending and borrowing too much. He said that Labour did not spend “more money” than “we had available”, but he missed his golden rule by more than £400 billion. He doubled and then redoubled the national debt. Everyone knows he was spending too much, and everyone has said so. The IFS, since he mentioned it, has said so; Tony Blair has said so; the last Chancellor conceded it in 2007. It is an open secret that half the shadow Cabinet want him to make this apology, but the shadow Chancellor refuses to do it—and we know why. If he did, it would be the final damning indictment of the economic policies he imposed on this country for a decade or more. It would be the final confirmation that his promise to end boom and bust—remember that?—led to the greatest boom and the biggest bust this country has ever seen.
What did we get? No apology; no mention of Labour’s latest economic idea; no credible plan to reduce the deficit. That is why Labour is neither convincing nor credible on the economy. Yes, these are difficult times; yes, this is a global debt crisis. We are dealing with Britain’s record debt problems. We have set out a course to ride through the storm and build a more prosperous future. Today we were reminded that no one, least of all the people who got us into the mess, has produced a convincing alternative to the course we have set.
Eurozone
George Osborne Excerpts(13 years, 1 month ago)
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The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne)
I would like to update the House on the situation in the eurozone and what we are doing to mitigate the impact of the crisis on the UK.
Markets remain exceptionally volatile. Since July stock markets are down by 11% in the UK, 12% in America, 23% in France and 24% in Germany. Bond spreads have widened significantly for a number of European countries. Bank shares have lost a quarter of their value in the past three months, and yesterday the Governments of France, Belgium and Luxembourg came together to rescue the major European bank Dexia.
Although the weakness of the US economy, and its recent downgrade, have contributed to the lack of confidence gripping world markets, it is clear to all that the epicentre of this crisis lies in the eurozone, so we need a comprehensive solution that puts our largest trading market on a much more stable footing. In a string of international meetings, including the recent flurry that began with the G7 meeting in Marseille, Britain has helped to lead the international community in setting out what the components of a solution should look like.
We have again pressed our argument in calls over the past couple of days which I, the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister have made to the leaderships in Germany, France, the institutions of the European Union and international bodies such as the International Monetary Fund. Half an hour ago the Prime Minister spoke to the President of the United States about the issue.
In short, we need a comprehensive solution which ring-fences vulnerable eurozone countries, recapitalises Europe’s banks and resolves the uncertainty about Greece. Ring-fence, recapitalise, resolve—let me take each in turn. First, we need to see the eurozone members increase the firepower of their bail-out fund. If they are trying to protect larger countries, €440 billion is sadly not enough. How they increase that firepower—whether by using more paid-in resources, more leverage, or more help from the European Central Bank—is up to them. What I can confirm is that Britain will not be a part of any permanent eurozone bail-out fund. We have provided a bilateral loan to Ireland with the support of the House, in recognition of our exceptionally close economic and social ties. But when we came to office we inherited a situation where we were also part of the EU-wide bail-out fund, the European financial stabilisation mechanism. As the price that we extracted for ratifying the treaty change creating the permanent bail-out fund, British taxpayers have made no contribution to the eurozone bail-out of Greece and will not be part of the permanent fund.
Alongside the ring fence, we need the second R, which is recapitalisation. The European bank stress tests have not been nearly tough enough, as proved by the fact that Dexia did not fail them. At the beginning of the year, I said that the new stress tests must be much tougher. The IMF now estimates that sovereign credit strain could have a direct impact of about €200 billion on European banks, and at last the European Banking Authority is working on a plan to test leading European banks against higher capital ratios and more credible benchmarks on their exposure to sovereign debt. European nations will need to set out the backstops that they have in place to raise capital privately if they can or provide public capital if they cannot.
Detailed work by the Financial Services Authority confirms that UK banks are much better capitalised and more liquid than many of their European counterparts. As the IMF showed in its recent assessment of the UK economy, the core tier 1 ratios of all the major UK banks are in double-digit territory, which compares well to most European peers. On Friday, the credit rating agency Moody’s downgraded 12 UK banks. However, it stated explicitly that the
“downgrades do not reflect a deterioration in the financial strength of the banking system or that of the government”.
Rather it is the recognition of the success of the Government’s efforts to reform banking and remove the perceived taxpayer guarantee for banks deemed too big to fail. That is the direction in which policy should be moving.
The third R is a resolution of the situation in Greece. The weekly drama of troika visits, parliamentary votes and uncertainty about the disbursement of future tranches of international funds are causing great instability for the whole world. Our advice to European neighbours about what needs to happen is provided in private, but our overall intent is very public. The speculation about Greece’s future needs to end. The eurozone needs to come to a clear decision now and stick to it, and that decision needs to be based on a rigorous and realistic assessment of what is really happening in Greece and the debt dynamics of that country’s economy. Such an assessment should be provided by the IMF. We need to ensure that the IMF has enough resources to support economies around the world that require the help of the international community.
Ring-fencing, recapitalisation and resolution—that is what needs to happen now. At the same time, the eurozone countries need to undertake structural reforms to make their economies more competitive and move towards greater fiscal integration to underpin the single currency. At the same time, we must ensure that Britain is not part of that integration and that our influence is protected. These things are required by the remorseless logic of monetary union. That is the comprehensive package—all these things—that we have been urging and will urge again at the G20 Finance Ministers meeting on Friday and the European Council meeting, which has now been moved to the end of next week. We believe that the package must be in place as soon as feasible and certainly no later than the G20 leaders summit in Cannes in less than four weeks. Our time frame has been clear and is now broadly accepted by the international community. Indeed, there are now signs of progress from the leadership of the eurozone.
The crisis in the euro may now be inching towards resolution, but it has already delivered a huge knock to international confidence. I said earlier this summer that Britain could not be immune from what was happening on our doorstep. Sadly, that has proved to be the case. That is the principal reason given by the independent Monetary Policy Committee for its decision to request authorisation to undertake further quantitative easing. As Mervyn King said in interviews explaining his decision,
“clearly the impact of the rest of the world on the UK does threaten our recovery. That’s why we took action today to try to head that off.”
I made it clear last year that I would follow exactly the same procedures that my predecessor established. I therefore agreed to the request and authorised a further £75 billion of asset purchases. I think that this is the right response to the deterioration in the international situation.
That is what the Bank of England can do. Although we have gone further than the last Government in extracting commitments from all the high street banks to increase SME lending and extend loan guarantees, I believe that we can do more domestically to get credit flowing, including credit easing.
The purpose of a credit-easing programme will be not only to lower the risk of another credit crunch, but to bring about a structural improvement in access to finance for mid-sized and small businesses so that a loan from their local bank is not the only source of finance, addressing one of the long-standing problems in the British economy. This action will sit alongside the other measures we have announced to improve our infrastructure, invest in science and make it easier to employ people. We will announce more details alongside the autumn forecast next month. All this recognises that our economic problems do not all come from abroad; many were home grown. Last week’s revisions to the GDP data revealed that Britain had one of the biggest booms in the entire world, followed by the deepest recession of any major economy other than Japan’s. We went into that bust with the biggest structural deficit in the G7 and came out with a deficit forecast to be the biggest in the G20.
None of the measures I have described would be possible if Britain did not have what the Governor of the Bank of England himself described last week as
“a credible plan to repay our debts”.
Fiscal responsibility allows the British authorities to be monetary activists. Without that credible plan, market interest rates in Britain would soar as they have in other European nations. Instead, interest rates here are just 2.5%, half of what they are in Spain and Italy. A 1% rise in interest rates would take £10 billion out of the pockets of British families through higher mortgage costs and lead to more repossessions and job losses as companies failed. These low interest rates are hard won and easily lost. I can confirm that the credit rating agency that downgraded the United States, Standard & Poor’s, has this month affirmed our triple A rating, but it made it clear that the greatest threat to that rating would be if
“the coalition government’s commitment to fiscal consolidation falters.”
We will not take that risk with our nation’s credibility and our interest rates.
These are difficult times. There is no doubt that a solution to the eurozone crisis is urgently needed. It would provide the greatest boost available to the British economy this autumn. We have been leading the international effort to help the eurozone find that solution while at home taking the steps needed to ensure that Britain rides out the storm. I commend this statement to the House.
Ed Balls (Morley and Outwood) (Lab/Co-op)
Let me start by thanking the Chancellor for making his statement and for advance notice of it. It is right that he has today updated the House and the country on the ongoing crisis in the eurozone. It is also right that he and I will have the opportunity to debate the ongoing growth crisis in the British economy in the House on Wednesday.
A year ago the Prime Minister told the House that our economy was
“out of the danger zone”—[Official Report, 15 December 2010; Vol. 520, c. 901.]
We warned then that there was a global hurricane brewing in the eurozone, America and across the developed world. We also warned the Chancellor that ripping out the foundations of the house here in Britain with a reckless approach to deficit reduction was the wrong approach. The global hurricane is now swirling around us. With the eurozone crisis deepening, and in advance of Wednesday’s debate, will he tell us today whether he still believes that Britain is out of the danger zone and that we are still a “safe haven” in a turbulent world? With the European Central Bank unwilling to cut its interest rates, is it really the crisis in the eurozone that has prompted the Chancellor to change so radically his views on quantitative easing? Two years ago he called it
“the last resort of desperate governments when all their other policies have failed”.
We will return to the British economy on Wednesday, but the Chancellor is right to say today that the crisis in the eurozone now constitutes a direct threat to our flatlining economy, not least because only Greece and Portugal in the eurozone have had lower growth than Britain in the past year. With no growth, it is no wonder our interest rates are so low. He is also right to say that the threat is not only to our exporters, but to the stability and solvency of our banking system. Can he update the House on his latest estimate of the full exposure of UK banks to euro sovereign debt? Is the House of Commons Library estimate of a $187 billion exposure correct? Is it correct that, as part of his contingency planning, the Treasury has been working on detailed plans to inject further capital into Royal Bank of Scotland?
The Chancellor is also right that it is a great relief that Britain is not a member of the eurozone, although I was rather surprised to hear him last week give the credit to the Foreign Secretary, who was in opposition, on the Back Benches and writing history books at the time. I have long given up hope of getting any thanks from the Chancellor for that vital judgment. Above all, the Chancellor is right: eurozone leaders have prevaricated too long and need to get their act together to put in place a credible plan before next month’s G20 meeting.
Back in July, the Chancellor told the Financial Times in an interview that eurozone leaders had to “get a grip”, and he called for a eurobond, but what has happened since? Precious little. Has he urged eurozone leaders not just to increase EFSF funding, but to widen its role to help recapitalise troubled banks and to put in place first-loss guarantees on sovereign debt to stop contagion in Spain and Italy? Rather than talking to the newspapers over the summer, perhaps the Chancellor should have gone to those meetings and urged a Europe-wide plan for jobs and growth to get unemployment falling and deficits down.
What do we have today from the Prime Minister? Do we have a report back from weekend meetings with President Sarkozy and Chancellor Merkel? No, because our Prime Minister was not at the meetings; he was too busy dealing with a local difficulty. Instead, we have another interview in the Financial Times, and his solution is that eurozone leaders need to get out their “big bazooka”. Their what? He could have called for political backing for the European Central Bank to act as a lender of last resort in return for credible fiscal policies, for a euro area debt guarantee or for a European plan for jobs and growth, but “big bazooka”—what does it mean? Can the Chancellor explain? I made the mistake of looking it up on Google this morning, and I warn hon. Members, “Do not make the same mistake.”
To be fair, and in conclusion, the Prime Minister did call this morning for a five-point plan to deal with the eurozone crisis, although it was not clear from the Chancellor’s statement what those five points are or add up to, but let us hope that, with Britain badly exposed, our growth flatlining, unemployment rising and borrowing set to be higher than planned, when the Chancellor comes back to the House on Wednesday he will agree to back our five-point plan for jobs and growth here in Britain.
Mr Osborne
I welcome the shadow Chancellor to his place. When I heard that the Labour leadership were clearing out their shadow Treasury Front-Bench team today, I was worried that the Conservative party would lose its greatest electoral asset, but it is great to see him still in his place.
Let me address the right hon. Gentleman’s specific questions. First, he asked about the exposures to eurozone nations. The FSA publishes the appropriate information on that, on the exposures overall to peripheral economies and to other eurozone banks, and it is appropriate that it does so. On RBS, I touched specifically on that issue, because there has been speculation, but let me make it very clear: in our assessment, and in that of the FSA, RBS is well capitalised and liquid.
On the eurozone facility, let me answer the right hon. Gentleman’s specific question. I believe that it should be broad in application, as well as deeper in funds, and undertake as many operations as is required. He talks about meetings, but let me reassure him that I have been to many, many meetings over the past few weeks. There has not been a shortage of meetings; there has been a lack of leadership from eurozone leaders in those meetings. But, that is changing, and that is very welcome.
Frankly, it is absolutely astonishing that a shadow Chancellor, who led his entire party through the Division Lobby in July to vote against the increase in IMF resources initiated at the London summit by the previous Prime Minister, should accuse us of a lack of leadership in the international community. Let us just imagine if that vote had been won—presumably the right hon. Gentleman cast his vote hoping to win the Division—we, alone in the world, I think, would not be ratifying the increase in IMF resources, and I would have to turn up at those meetings and explain, “I am very sorry, but the British House of Commons does not want to use the Bretton Woods institutions to help us with one of the greatest financial crises of the century.” As I say, his lectures on leadership come a little thin, and perhaps he should practise what he preaches.
I end by saying this. We will have our debate on the British economy, but it would be hard to imagine the shadow Chancellor coming back from the Labour conference with his party’s economic credibility even lower than it was before he began the conference season, but there is still no recognition from him that his Government spent too much money, ran up a big budget deficit when times were good and spent more money than they had available—even though that is acknowledged by Tony Blair, who was Prime Minister at the time. The shadow Chancellor still thinks that the answer to a debt crisis is to spend more money. His five-point plan is, of course, a complete abandonment of the plan set out by the last Chancellor of the Exchequer, to which, as I understood it, the Labour party was still in theory committed.
When we listen to the combined speeches of the shadow Chancellor and the Leader of the Opposition, they seem to amount to more regulation and more tax on businesses—indeed, they confirm the Labour party’s reputation as the anti-business party. The shadow Chancellor has managed to get the Labour party into an extraordinary position for an Opposition—of complete irrelevance: irrelevant at home and irrelevant abroad. The leader of the Labour party asked a good question—“Why would you bring Fred Goodwin back to run the banks?” But why on earth would we bring the shadow Chancellor back to run the British economy?
Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con)
When the Chancellor gave his authority to create another £75 billion of money, what forecast was he given about the impact that that will have in the next couple of years on the price level and therefore on real incomes? So far it has been high inflation that has clobbered real incomes and depressed demand.
Mr Osborne
As my right hon. Friend will know, in its most recent quarterly bulletin, the Bank of England did an assessment of the impact that the previous round of quantitative easing had had; it thought that that had increased GDP by 1.5% to 2%, but that it had also increased inflation. However, the Bank was very clear that in recommending or requesting further quantitative easing, it was still aiming to hit its inflation target in the required two-year period.
Mr Alistair Darling (Edinburgh South West) (Lab)
I am glad that the Chancellor now realises that the policy of quantitative easing was, in fact, a good one and did help get our economy growing. Can he tell us how he plans to ensure that the additional £75 billion gets out of the bank vaults and on to the high street? He has mentioned the credit support scheme, on which we have not yet got some details, but I am sure that he would agree that it is important that the money finds its way out into the economy.
On the question of Greece, is there now an acceptance that the present austerity policies being visited on that country are not going to work? Were the reports coming out of the IMF a couple of weeks ago—that there would have to be some sort of write-down of Greek debts—accurate?
Mr Osborne
Let me deal first with the right hon. Gentleman’s question about quantitative easing. I think there is general recognition that what worked was the increase in asset prices and also pushing investors up the risk chain. I defer to the right hon. Gentleman’s view on this, but what did not work so well was an increase in bank lending; that did not happen as a result of QE, although the Government at the time hoped that it would. As he knows better than anyone, the Government also created the asset purchase facility with the idea that the Bank of England might purchase some corporate paper; it ended up purchasing only around £1 billion-worth.
I thought that it was sensible, therefore, that alongside the Bank’s action on QE we separately, as a Government accountable to the House, looked at credit easing options, which directly try to address the bank lending issue and enable the Government—again, directly accountable to elected people—to look at a range of assets that one can buy, such as small business loans.
On the question of Greece, I have to be a little careful; I alluded to that in my statement when I said that the advice that we are giving on Greece is private. But our public intent is very clear: the Greek situation has to be resolved. It is very debilitating for the world that at the moment each week goes past and there is another event risk around Greece—the troika turns up, there is a parliamentary vote in Greece. Of course, a lot of the frustration of eurozone members is not so much at the impact of austerity, but at the feeling that they have that the Greeks have not done what they promised to do. But as I say, if the right hon. Gentleman will forgive me, I will continue to give my specific advice on Greece to my eurozone neighbours in private.
Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con)
I am pleased that my right hon. Friend is taking a robust approach towards our economy, but does he share my concern that the eurozone’s attempt to open up our benefits and pensions pots this September will derail his efforts to make sure that we get money back to the British taxpayer?
Mr Osborne
I am very clear that the resources we provide to the European Union should be well spent. Indeed, there is a whole separate agenda that we have not touched on today of getting the European Union better focused on trying to encourage growth and competitiveness across the entire continent. Like, I suspect, my hon. Friend, I also share the frustration about the application of European law that means that we have to end up paying benefits to people who are not in this country. That is one of the frustrations that Governments in the past have had to deal with, and we are looking at whether there are potential avenues around it.
Sir Stuart Bell (Middlesbrough) (Lab)
It was no doubt an oversight that the Chancellor did not mention the conference at the weekend between President Sarkozy and Angela Merkel where they called for a rapid and global response that had to be in place by the time of the G20 meeting in November. The Prime Minister responded by saying that he did not want to put a single euro into saving the euro after 2013. He said that he did not want the involvement of the investment bank and that all he wanted was participation through the IMF—which, incidentally, I did not vote against earlier in the year. Is this what we call being at the heart of Europe and punching above our weight, or are we moving towards a two-speed Europe?
Mr Osborne
I did not directly mention the meeting at the weekend between the French President and the German Chancellor, but I alluded to it when I said that there were signs of progress, as the meeting was one of those signs. They have now decided to delay the European Council until the end of next week to give them more time to put together a package, the components of which are becoming clear. The timetable that we first identified of the Cannes summit being the last possible point when we can resolve this is now generally accepted. On the hon. Gentleman’s substantive point about international resources, I commend him for his sensible vote in defying the Whip imposed by the shadow Chancellor.
Mr Osborne
Let me address this. There certainly were some people on my side, and no doubt some of them may ask me about it today. I am very happy to stand up and explain why I think that is wrong, why Britain has been a founding member of the IMF, and why the international institutions like the IMF and the World Bank are absolutely central in trying to get an international response to economic problems. However, there is a big difference between Back-Bench Members of this House deciding to vote against this issue as a matter of conscience and the shadow Chancellor leading the entire Opposition into an official vote against an IMF package that—let us remember this—was supposed to be the crowning achievement of the last Prime Minister’s premiership. When we look back at the last Prime Minister’s premiership, the one thing we say he got right was the London G20 summit, and then the shadow Chancellor leads his party into the Division Lobby against it. That is pathetic.
Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD)
Does the Chancellor agree that if your neighbour’s house is on fire, with or without exits, and if it threatens to set yours on fire too, the sensible, constructive and intelligent thing to do is to protect your own house, do your best to help your neighbour to put out the fire, and not start an argument about where the boundary line falls between the two properties—or, as Labour Members suggest, throw away the fire extinguisher?
Mr Osborne
There are quite a lot of fire analogies there. We are trying to do those things. First, we are trying to protect our own country. Of course, this was an independent decision of the Bank of England, but when it made its decision it explicitly referenced what was happening in the eurozone as the principal reason for doing so. Secondly, we are very actively engaged with the eurozone in trying to find this international solution to its problems. I mentioned all the conversations that have been had just in the past 72 hours or so. There have been a string of international meetings where we have made forceful interventions. We have helped to push the eurozone in the right direction, but there are also people—leaders—in the eurozone who are trying to lead it in the right direction as well. The hon. Gentleman’s point about the rather remarkable vote by Labour Members against the IMF is well made.
Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP)
In these challenging times for UK families, can the Chancellor assure the House that hard-pressed taxpayers throughout the United Kingdom will not be saddled with the financial burden of saving the euro? Will he continue actively to engage with banks to save the financial viability of small and medium-sized enterprises across the UK?
Mr Osborne
The hon. Gentleman makes a good point about the financial burden. Obviously we bear a burden as an economy that is closely inter-connected with the eurozone, but we took a decision that we wanted to get Britain out of the EU27 mechanism, and we put considerable negotiating effort into doing that. That meant not just the current mechanism, with its €60 billion capacity which had been established—we are still part of that—but ensuring that the permanent bail-out mechanism did not include people who were not in the euro. If the members of the euro want monetary union and want to move towards greater fiscal union, it is not reasonable to ask countries that are not in the euro to be part of one of the key mechanisms of that union, which is a bail-out fund.
Mr Douglas Carswell (Clacton) (Con)
The bail-out-and-borrow approach to dealing with the crisis in the eurozone has not worked. We can call it the three R’s —ring-fence, recapitalise, resolution—but it is still bailing out, and bail-out simply begets more bail-out: more public liability to rescue rich men from the folly of their investment decisions. When will my right hon. Friend advocate a new approach, one that works: instead of bail out and borrow, default and decouple?
Mr Osborne
The first thing I would say to my hon. Friend is that he is right to allude to the debt dynamics in some of the countries involved, and I mentioned that specifically in the case of Greece. The difference between the Greek situation and the Irish situation at the moment shows that countries can take different paths, and with political will they can deal with their problems. However, if the political system is unable to address those problems, the rest of the international community has to step in.
My hon. Friend’s second allusion—the decoupling—is, I guess, a reference to the break-up of the euro. As he knows, I was against Britain joining the euro—I perhaps did not argue the case on quite as many occasions as he did—but as the world stands today, the break-up of the euro would be absolutely calamitous for the British economy, and it is not in our interests to advocate that. It is profoundly in our national interest to try to make monetary union work. Monetary unions can be made to work, but greater fiscal integration and fiscal union are needed, and—this is a crucial additional part—we also need the competitiveness of the other, peripheral European economies to be greatly improved.
Mr George Mudie (Leeds East) (Lab)
The Chancellor has said that the asset purchase facility is the best way to get money into the real economy and stimulate growth. Why is the Bank of England refusing to use the asset purchase facility, when the last Government used it successfully, and instead allowing the money to be channelled through the banks, which keep hold of it for their own security, and not to be sent into the real economy?
Mr Osborne
I am not sure that the asset purchase facility was the enormous success that the hon. Gentleman implies. It probably did do a good job—again, I defer to the views of the Chancellor at the time, who would have seen the data closer up. The asset purchase facility helped to stop the collapse in the corporate bond market at the time, but it never led to the big increase in lending that the previous Government hoped it would. The Bank of England did not make use of the £50 billion facility that was made available. Although the facility remains, to date the Bank has made use of only around £1 billion. Instead of revisiting the theology, as it were, of who is responsible and the role of the Bank, my view has been that in order to maintain the proper division of responsibility between the Bank and the Government, who are accountable to Parliament, the Government should undertake credit easing operations with their own balance sheet, and that is what we are working on at the moment.
Michael Fallon (Sevenoaks) (Con)
What was the point of the European Banking Authority conducting two rounds of stress tests that excluded any serious test of banks’ exposure to sovereign debt? Surely it is in the interests of eurozone Governments to have such exposure made more transparent and to start facing up to how to tackle it?
Mr Osborne
My hon. Friend makes a very good point. We repeatedly argued that the stress tests should be tougher and more credible, but there were strong vested interests that did not want to see that happen and did not want to confront some of the problems in their own banking system. They are now having to confront those problems, however. The fact that Dexia passed the test, and that when it identified a capital shortfall it was in the low billions of euros across the entire European continent—given that tens of billions of euros were required to deal with the Irish problems that occurred around Christmas—demonstrates that those tests were not credible enough. To be fair, I do not think this is an EBA problem; it is more a problem with the membership of the EBA, but the association is now, with our support and encouragement, finally conducting what I think will be a much more credible set of assumptions for the European banking system.
Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP)
I thank the Chancellor for his statement and for giving me early sight of it. He said that the eurozone countries needed to undertake structural reform and to move towards greater fiscal integration—he later mentioned fiscal union—and that that would form part of a comprehensive package that he had been urging. He has not, however, described what he means by fiscal integration or fiscal union. Would they involve the European Union controlling 2% or 3% of countries’ gross domestic product, or 20% or 30%? Would they involve a counter-cyclical stability mechanism, or an enhanced European stability fund? Would the measures be applied uniformly, irrespective of debt ratios or savings ratios? It is important that we hear publicly what the Chancellor is saying in private, if we are to avoid speculation and confusion over the UK’s position when none need exist.
Mr Osborne
The debate on how that fiscal union should take shape is just starting in the eurozone, and we can contribute to that debate while ensuring that Britain is not part of it and that Britain’s important national interests are protected in regard to the single market, competition policy and financial services. Key components of the measures will include some transfer of resources: in effect, the European financial stability fund is becoming a sort of central resourcing fund. The measures will also mean greater surveillance and mutual vetoes and the like over each other’s budget policies. I have raised the issue of eurobonds, as have the Italian Finance Minister and the chair of ECOFIN. I think there will be a number of components. In the end, it has to be, in part, a decision for the eurozone itself to take the lead, provided that our interests are protected.
I cannot help but make the observation that one of the things we are learning about the eurozone is that if we have a single currency, we need much greater co-ordination of economic policy. That is rather contrary to the Scottish National party’s approach, which is to maintain a single currency but to have a dis-integration of fiscal co-ordination.
Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con)
On the issue of growth, will the Chancellor accept that, last year, our trade deficit with the eurozone went up from minus £4 billion to minus £38 billion in one year alone? Does he recognise that this has a great deal to do with the problem of over-regulation and that we need to repatriate social and employment legislation so as to create growth in small and medium-sized businesses? Will he also face down the Deputy Prime Minister, as the Home Secretary did the other day?
Mr Osborne
Speaking as a member of the Conservative party, I would make it clear, as the Prime Minister has done, that if a future treaty should arise, as it may well do, we will argue the case for bringing back certain powers to this country. I am sure that we will have a very active debate about what those powers should be—
Mr Ronnie Campbell (Blyth Valley) (Lab)
And throw union rights out of the window?
Mr Osborne
I am sure the hon. Gentleman can put in his bid for things he would like to see repatriated. Perhaps there would be some trade union powers, so that a Government led by the union man, the leader of the Labour party, could get their way more easily. But we will have that debate in due course; it is not active at the moment in European circles. I suggest that we focus on the immediate issue at hand, which is resolving the eurozone crisis.
Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab)
In response to the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood), who is no longer in his place, the Chancellor described the Bank of England’s analysis of the impact on inflation of the last round of quantitative easing. At a time when British people have less and less cash in their pockets, few issues could be more important. [Interruption.] [Hon. Members: “It’s Gordon Brown ringing for you!”] Will the Chancellor tell the House, perhaps by telephone, or by e-mail, whether he has requested any analysis from his civil servants in the Treasury of the forecast for the impact on inflation of the current round of QE?
Mr Osborne
I think the phone would have been flying through the air rather than ringing, if it had been the last Prime Minister. Of course we have made our own examination of the impact of QE. When I became Chancellor, I set out the procedures I would follow if there were a request from the Monetary Policy Committee. I set it out within weeks of coming into office and I said I would follow exactly the procedures set out by my predecessor—that if there were a request, we would accede to it. I also believe that the MPC has come to the right judgment; its judgment was independent, but I believe it was right.
Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con)
The shadow Chancellor would like a pat on the back for keeping us out of the euro. Will the Chancellor tell us how much the euro preparations unit cost under the previous Government?
Mr Osborne
I am afraid I do not have the figures to hand, although I will definitely bring them to our debate on Wednesday. What I do know is that when I arrived in the Treasury, the euro preparations unit still existed, and we had to shut it down. Perhaps it was something that the shadow Chancellor did not get round to in all those years at the Treasury when he was running British economic policy during the golden era.
Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab)
A number of eurozone members will be condemned to permanent deflation, low growth and high unemployment and will require ongoing fiscal handouts unless and until they can leave the euro. Britain is well placed to advise on such a process. Whatever the Chancellor says publicly, will he be offering that advice privately?
Mr Osborne
I think that is called a trick question. The hon. Gentleman has been an absolutely consistent and principled opponent of the euro. When I first arrived in the House in 2001, he was making the argument then and he is still making it now, and I respect him for it. As I have said, however, “I told you so” is not an economic policy at the moment. He may well be right about the problems of combining the economies of different countries with totally different structural problems, competitiveness rates and so on, let alone fiscal policies. He is right about all that, but we have to deal with the world as it is, and at a time like this I do not think that advocating the break-up of the euro is in our national interest. We need to make the euro work. Monetary unions can be made to work, but that involves things like fiscal transfers. At last, I think, the eurozone is facing up to that.
Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)
May I remind my right hon. Friend of what he said on 24 September, when he reminded the world that there were six weeks to save the euro? If we get to 5 November and this crisis is grinding interminably on, will it not be time to start advocating the advice of Lord Lawson, who advocates an orderly break-up of the euro in order to restore growth to European economies and limit the liabilities that are constantly building up the longer this crisis goes on?
Mr Osborne
My hon. Friend is right to remind us that the G20 summit in Cannes is the last of a string of international meetings that have involved the G7, ECOFIN, which the Treasury Secretary attended, the International Monetary Fund, G20 Finance Ministers later this week and the European Council next week. It all culminates in the G20 meeting of world leaders at Cannes. That really is the moment when the world needs to be in no doubt that there is a solution to the eurozone problems and that we have the firepower and strength in the banking system to deal with them. If we do not deal with them, the situation will go from bad to even worse. However, as I say, it would not be sensible to advocate to our European colleagues the break-up of the euro. That would greatly diminish what we had to say in these meetings, as it would not be seen as practical—[Interruption.] Well, I also think it would be wrong, as it is not in Britain’s national interest to see the euro break up.
Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab)
The Chancellor of the Exchequer says that he wants to make the euro work, although he also says that it is the epicentre and the cause of instability in the world economy, and he talks about co-ordination of fiscal policy and cash transfers. Is that not just a euphemism for taking central control away from many of the peripheral democracies in Europe, and does not the loss of democracy in countries many of which were recently fascist pose a greater danger than an orderly break-up of the euro?
Mr Osborne
The eurozone was also described as the epicentre by the president of the European Central Bank, Jean-Claude Trichet.
The hon. Gentleman is right: we are talking about the exercise of greater control over the finances of other nations by the eurozone authorities, which is one of the reasons we should be very grateful that Britain is not part of those arrangements. The hon. Gentleman mentioned some of the social and political strains that that might lead to. As I have said, those who follow the remorseless logic of monetary union end up with greater fiscal union, which involves all sorts of sovereignty issues for all the countries in the euro; but I must add that I do not recognise the image of the green pastures of a break-up of the euro and what might happen after that event in Greece. I think that political and social tensions could be considerably higher in countries such as Greece if they left the euro, and that such action could bring about the situation to which the hon. Gentleman referred and which none of us wants to see.
David Tredinnick (Bosworth) (Con)
Is not the fundamental problem with the Greeks that even if a package is agreed, there is no way the Government can implement it, because the tax authorities have themselves said that they are not going to do so? A depreciated or, indeed, a new currency for Greece would give my Hinckley constituents and others some chance of buying cheaper Greek holidays and stimulating the economy.
Mr Osborne
As I have said, I was always one of those who said that Britain should not join the euro. I worked alongside my right hon. Friend for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague) when he was Leader of the Opposition, and helped him to write many of the speeches that set out that case. Although the shadow Chancellor keeps talking about the important role that the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) played in all that, I do not recall lots of passionate speeches about why Britain should not join the euro; but no doubt he was doing his work in private.
Let me say this about the Greek situation. If Greece were to leave the euro, there would be a balance of payments crisis. Greece does not have a primary balance, so there would automatically be a need for a huge international programme. The idea that leaving the euro would get it out of needing international assistance, or out of the clutches of the International Monetary Fund, is just fanciful, because it would need such a programme. There would be a balance of payments crisis and there would probably be runaway inflation as well, which would wipe out any competitiveness gains.
I think that we are depicting a nirvana of Greek exit from the euro which does not exist. Greece is in a very difficult position, and it needs to work through its problems.
Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab)
The private sector is not creating the jobs that the country needs. Will the Chancellor now review his massive cuts in the public sector? Forty-six per cent. of workers in my constituency work in the public sector; what chance have they of employment if there is a double jobs whammy, in both the public and the private sector?
Mr Osborne
The hon. Gentleman is the shadow Chancellor’s Parliamentary Private Secretary—[Hon. Members: “No, he’s not.”] Oh, he has been promoted! It is a complete clear-out. Well, well. We are very pleased to see that the shadow Chancellor is still in his place.
Let me draw the hon. Gentleman’s attention to what was said by Digby Jones, one of the members of the last Government. [Interruption.] It is funny how Labour Members disown these people. They booed Tony Blair, and now they are attacking their former Trade Minister. Anyway, he said that the Labour leadership was
“displaying poor statesmanship at a time when the country needs leaders, not players to a union gallery”.
He also said that their policies were
“a kick in the teeth for the only sector that generates wealth, that pays the tax and creates the jobs”
in this country. He added:
“Pro-business? Not!”
It is the businesses that will create the jobs in this country, and being the anti-business party will not get Labour anywhere.
Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend recall the howls of derision from Opposition Members when he warned 18 months ago of the possibility of a Greek-style economic catastrophe engulfing this country’s economy? Now that the threat of contagion has reached even Italy, what is his assessment of the dangers to the UK economy of slowing down implementation of the deficit reduction strategy?
Mr Osborne
My hon. Friend makes a good point. When we first said, “Look at Greece”, Opposition Members all said, “Well, that couldn’t happen here.” It then extended to Portugal, then Ireland, then Spain, then Italy, and now questions are being raised about the French banks, which France is seeking address, and a Belgian bank has fallen over this weekend. In the end, we can look at what the credit rating agency who gave us the triple A rating said last week. It said that the rating would come under downward pressure if
“the coalition Government’s commitment to fiscal consolidation falters”.
There would be an automatic downgrade if we were to follow the Opposition’s approach. That would lead to higher interest rates, hitting families and leading to more repossessions and more job losses. That is the path to ruin, and we know what it is like because we have been down it before under the shadow Chancellor.
Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab)
The Chancellor of the Exchequer has laid great emphasis this afternoon on credit easing, but he has said he cannot tell us how that will operate until the autumn statement, although it will be an alternative to bank finance. When will small and medium-sized enterprises actually get something from this process?
Mr Osborne
As I said, we have already extended the loan guarantees that we inherited. We have concluded a deal with all the high street banks—not just the two that were nationalised under our predecessors—to get an increase in SME lending. We want to go further, however, and we will set out the full details in the autumn statement, when the hon. Lady will, no doubt, be present to ask me a question.
Joseph Johnson (Orpington) (Con)
Can the Chancellor confirm that Moody’s downgrades of 14 UK banks on Friday reflected the planned and progressive withdrawal of state support for the banking system and a reduction of the likelihood of further taxpayer bail-outs for the UK banks, rather than any weakening of the UK banking system per se?
Mr Osborne
Yes, I can confirm that. Moody’s was explicit in saying that that was not a reflection of financial conditions in the UK or the financial strength of the Government. Rather, it was a recognition of the fact that the current Government are trying to move away from the taxpayer either implicitly or explicitly standing behind our largest banks. That is sensible policy, and I hope it commands support on the Opposition Benches.
Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab)
Returning to the eurozone rather than our domestic concerns, I agree with the Chancellor about the difficulty that would arise if Greece were to leave, or be forced out of, the eurozone. Although he will not tell us his policy, will he give us an estimate in respect of the secure fund for the eurozone? It has been said that €2,000 billion would be required for that fund. How great a contribution from the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank is the Chancellor going to argue for in order to bolster the ability of the eurozone to see itself through the crisis and save Greece from being pushed out?
Mr Osborne
We are not arguing for an increase in IMF resources as part of the Greek programme, but I did make reference to the broader resourcing of the IMF. That is increasingly an issue because of its flexible credit lines to Poland and Mexico—neither country is in the eurozone, of course. The truth is that after taking into account the IMF’s existing commitments and the buffers it needs to maintain in order to operate as an institution, it does not have a huge amount of resources—although by most people’s standards it does have a huge amount, of course. Its resources amount to about €400 billion, but that is not as large as some people imagine. There is therefore a debate about whether to try to increase the IMF’s resources, but we are not discussing a possible increase of resources in the IMF programme to Greece.
Sajid Javid (Bromsgrove) (Con)
During the 2008 crisis, it turned out that credit default swap spreads were a better indicator of the financial health of a borrower than credit ratings. Over the last 18 months our credit default swap spread has fallen dramatically, and in the last few weeks it has, for the first time, been lower than that of France and Germany. Does the Chancellor have a reason why that might have happened?
Mr Osborne
I think it is a reflection of the fact that people around the world believe that we have “a credible plan”—those were the words used by the Governor of the Bank of England last week—to repay our debts. Let us remember that we have the largest budget deficit of any forecast for the G20. That is the situation we inherited and we are trying to bring that deficit down. Other countries with much lower deficits have got into trouble because they have not had credible plans, presented by a united Government and implemented with a good majority in their Parliament. We have those things and we are going to keep them.
Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)
Many small businesses and manufacturers across the country are still very worried. They have seen growth stall under the Chancellor’s policies and now they see the crisis in the eurozone. Can he explain, simply and clearly, how his policies are going to help stimulate growth and help these companies have the growth that they need, particularly given that many of them are going to lose a lot of business when public procurement contracts come to an end?
Mr Osborne
The hon. Lady says that public procurement projects are going to come to an end. The British Government are going to be spending £3 trillion over the next four years, so let us make sure that that money is well spent and that good British businesses, small and large, are able to avail themselves of the procurement that will take place under a £3 trillion Government budget. But of course I do not underestimate the difficulty of the situation the world faces at the moment and the situation that Britain faces because of its exposure to the world and to the problems that it itself created in recent years. I understand that, but the whole world is experiencing slow growth at the moment. We have actually grown more this calendar year than the United States and we are currently forecast to grow more next year than France and Germany. That is just a reflection of the fact that our problems are being experienced by other countries but our solutions have kept us out of the financial danger zone, which the shadow Chancellor asked me about earlier. They have meant that our credit default swap rates, our interest rates and market interest rates, our credit rating and so on have been protected at a time when many other European countries have experienced real market volatility.
Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con)
Following the problems in the eurozone, there seems to have been a suggestion in some quarters that an EU-wide financial transaction tax should be explored. Will the Chancellor categorically confirm to this House that he will strongly oppose any such move?
Mr Osborne
I am not against a financial transaction tax in principle; after all, Britain already has one—the stamp duty on shares. What I am against is a European financial transaction tax that operates only on the European continent and is imposed in Europe. If we can get global agreement, with the United States, China and others, on a world financial transaction tax, all well and good, although I do not think that is terribly likely. If we do not have that, all this business currently conducted in the UK would immediately depart to the United States. We saw the same thing happen when Sweden imposed a financial transaction tax—all the business departed to London. I am therefore against a European financial transaction tax, although, as I say, if we can get global agreement, all well and good.
Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab)
It is deeply uncomfortable to hear Ministers say from the Dispatch Box that they give advice in private but they do not share it with the House. I wish to give the Chancellor another chance by asking him whether he agrees that as Greece is unable to regain its competitiveness—because it cannot devalue—he is therefore in favour of permanent bail-outs. Another term for those is “permanent gifts”, because that country cannot regain competitiveness.
Mr Osborne
As the hon. Lady knows, these are very market-sensitive issues and I have to be careful, as the UK’s Finance Minister, in what I say about the Greek situation. However, I was pretty clear in my statement in saying that the debt sustainability of Greece had to add up. That is the issue that has to be confronted with Greece in the coming weeks.
Mr Rob Wilson (Reading East) (Con)
My right hon. Friend was right to be concerned in his statement about money finding its way to small and start-up businesses. May I urge him to consider streamlining the current, overly complex enterprise investment scheme and add tax relief to those business angel investors who are making their savings available to small businesses in this country? Such an approach would give a much-needed boost to small business in this country.
Mr Osborne
My hon. Friend will be pleased to know that we have just announced reforms to the EIS to make it more generous and, we hope, simpler to claim.
Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)
The Chancellor has repeated that the FSA confirmed that UK banks are better capitalised and more liquid than many of their European counterparts. Is that assurance enough for him and how assured is he about the level of UK banks’ exposure to sovereign debt in the eurozone?
Mr Osborne
As the hon. Gentleman will understand, that has been kept under close surveillance at the Treasury—certainly for as long as I have been Chancellor, and no doubt before. We are well aware of the exposure of UK banks to the eurozone peripherals. However, we have satisfied ourselves that even with those exposures—as I said, the FSA has made much of the information public—banks such as RBS are well capitalised and liquid and do not have the kinds of problems that some banks on the continent have.
Claire Perry (Devizes) (Con)
It is my belief that the fiscal activism of this Government has created headroom for the next round of quantitative easing. Will the Chancellor tell us what he thinks would have happened if we had carried on spending under the plans of the previous Government and whether there would have been any room at all for a further round of QE?
Mr Osborne
My hon. Friend is right to call it fiscal activism, because one has to step in and take difficult decisions, which the Opposition have ducked, to get the deficit under control, to have a credible plan and to allow monetary policy greater freedom of manoeuvre. We are monetary activists while being fiscally responsible and that is the right approach. The alternative advocated by the Opposition is a big increase in interest rates—[Interruption.] Let me let hon. Members into a little secret. The Chancellor does not set the interest rates. They are set not only by the Bank of England but by the markets and if we abandoned our plan and suffered the credit downgrade that the shadow Chancellor is, in effect, advocating, interest rates would go up, families would face higher mortgage bills, people would lose their homes, businesses would go bust and jobs would be lost. That is not a path we will go down.
Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)
May I refer the Chancellor to Hansard from 12 September, column 770? He might recall that I raised with him the serious problems that small businesses are having in gaining access to financial support, based on talking to businesses in my constituency. Will he tell me what changed in the three weeks between 12 September and his speech at the Tory party conference? If the policy he announced then turns out to be a practical source of extra help, I will welcome it, but he made no mention of it on 12 September and seemed to suggest that enough was being done anyway.
Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend take comfort in the result of the German Parliament’s vote at the end of last month, when it effectively created a fund with conditions? Does he see that as a generation of political support for the robust action that the Prime Minister has been talking about over the past few days?
Mr Osborne
The vote in the Bundestag was very encouraging. Of course, it is easier for us in the House of Commons to say that the Germans must act and that we must create this fund, but we must understand that German taxpayers are being asked an awful lot—although I would say that that was one of the consequences of a single currency. Nevertheless, it is reassuring that the vote in the Bundestag was passed not merely with a straightforward majority but with the so-called Chancellor’s majority.
Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con)
I very much welcome the action my right hon. Friend has announced about quantitative easing and credit easing. Will he say whether he thinks it would be helpful for the UK economy if our European partners were to adopt the same policy, given that 40% of our exports go to Europe?
Mr Osborne
I think I had better leave their monetary policy to the European Central Bank and not offer them such advice.
Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab)
For five centuries, British policy has been to oppose any hegemon on Europe, whether a single religion, a single state, a single economic model or a single ideology. Why is the Chancellor so keen on creating a fiscal and monetary union that would dictate terms of commerce, trade and banking rules to this country?
Mr Osborne
That was quite a sweep of history. Of course, Britain has always sought to maintain the balance of power in Europe and one could argue that the enlargement policy was quite a successful extension of that policy, but the decision has already been taken with the monetary union and we have to make it work because we would be directly impacted by its failure.
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
Is not the euro like the parrot in the Monty Python sketch—dead, extinguished, without life—and is not the German Chancellor like the shopkeeper in saying that it is actually healthy and that we really must buy it? Should not the Chancellor be like John Cleese and say, “This is dead and we should bury it”?
Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry) (Con)
Although the Chancellor is completely focused on the eurozone crisis, I am sure that it will not have slipped his notice that meanwhile the European Commission and the European Parliament are asking for more regulation and more money. Could he please instruct his officials to ensure that, while negotiations on these very important matters regarding the eurozone are going on, we kill some of the bad ideas that are flowing from elsewhere in Europe?
Mr Osborne
We are also arguing strongly for a real freeze in the budget and—I alluded to this earlier—a change in the direction of European policy making so that we do not price this entire continent, including ourselves, out of the world market.
Mr Sam Gyimah (East Surrey) (Con)
Does the Chancellor agree that, in the short term, quantitative easing could produce a weaker pound, and that within clearly defined limits that could help to boost exports and therefore drive growth?
Mr Osborne
I have made it a policy not to comment on the value of sterling and I do not intend to break that policy right now.
Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) (Con)
Many of my constituents do not want the UK to be part of any new, permanent EU bail-out mechanism. Will the Chancellor confirm that under this Government we will not be part of such a mechanism?
Mr Osborne
I certainly can confirm that, and it is down to the hard negotiating effort of the Prime Minister at the European Council where it was agreed to wind down the temporary EU27 fund and that the permanent bail-out fund would not include Britain.
Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con)
With instability in the eurozone and fever in the markets, any Government who contemplated changing three of their five Treasury Ministers would be sending a very dangerous signal. Does my right hon. Friend have any advice for any wannabe political leaders when they choose to sack half their Treasury Bench?
Mr Osborne
As far as I can tell, they got rid of all the people who wanted the shadow Chancellor to be the leader of the Labour party and the leader has put in place all the people who wanted him to win. That tactic was used by the last two leaders of the Labour party, as well, at the Treasury.
Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con)
In addition to the structural reforms and other measures that the Chancellor outlined in his statement, what is he doing to ensure that the eurozone follows the lead he is showing in the UK by cutting regulations to stimulate business growth?
Mr Osborne
There is greater recognition in other European member states that we need to make the European continent more competitive, and the pamphlet that we sponsored on making Europe more competitive, which the Prime Minister presented at the European Council, was endorsed by a number of other member states.
Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) (Con)
International media, particularly in the USA, are beginning to say that it is a matter of when, not if, Greece defaults on her sovereign debt and leaves the euro. If “I told you so” is not the basis of a good economic policy, what credible and mature plans do we have to deal with the Greek default?
Mr Osborne
Of course, we make contingencies for all possible outcomes—and people should not take that either way because we plan for all situations. I do not want to comment specifically on the issue that my hon. Friend raises about Greece, but I have made it very clear that the situation in Greece needs to be resolved. It needs to come to a decision and stick to it, and it needs to get the debt dynamics in that country right.
Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con)
Given the close correlation between my right hon. Friend’s disciplined approach to spending, the ratings of our sovereign debt and the low interest rates from which our constituents benefit, has the Treasury been able to calculate the likely impact on our interest rates of the shadow Chancellor’s higher spending policies so that we can calculate the true cost on the average family’s mortgage of the widely discredited plan B that he advocates?
Mr Osborne
We have not done that calculation, but my hon. Friend has given me a very good idea for Wednesday’s debate. We know, because we have all experienced it, what Labour policies lead to: a completely uncontrollable budget deficit; a negative outlook for our nation’s credit rating; and interest rates that were tracking Spain’s. We have been there under the Labour party, and it is remarkable that when it cleared out the shadow Treasury team, it did not clear out the man most responsible in this Parliament for getting Britain into this economic mess.
Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)
In his statement, the Chancellor quoted the sage remarks of the former Minister, Lord Jones. Perhaps it is the Chancellor’s modesty that prevented him from quoting these remarks that Lord Jones made about the fact that we are sticking with plan A:
“The markets of the world will say, ‘well done George’. That will mean that interest rates are low”,
that we keep our triple A rating, and that we do not become Greece.
Mr Osborne
We should certainly listen to the sage words of the former Labour Trade Minister.
Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)
Deficit reduction has kept us ahead of the curve, so our triple A rating has been maintained and interest rates are lower than they otherwise would be. Is it the same with quantitative easing, that it will keep us ahead of the curve if the eurozone does not make the right decisions in the next three or four weeks?
Mr Osborne
As I said, it was an independent decision of the Bank of England. In the explanation that the Governor gave of why the Bank took the decision, he explicitly referred to the situation regarding the euro. I agree with that decision. Work done by the Bank of England suggests that the method can work.
Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)
Following the bail-out of Dexia, does my right hon. Friend consider that there is an increased risk of the credit rating of other eurozone countries, particularly Belgium, being downgraded?
Mr Osborne
Of course, a number of eurozone countries have seen their credit rating suffer, and have seen it downgraded. That has impacted on the cost of borrowing for their Government and their citizens. That is one of the reasons why it is so important that we maintain a credible fiscal policy—something to which the Governor of the Bank alluded last week, and to which all business organisations have alluded. As far as I can see, only the shadow Chancellor now opposes that.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
I thank the House for its co-operation. We managed to get everyone in, within time.
Independent Banking Commission Report
George Osborne Excerpts(13 years, 2 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne)
I would like to make a statement on the final report of the Independent Commission on Banking. The report is an impressive piece of work, broad in scope, incisive in its analysis and clear in its recommendations. The Commission has done what we asked it to do; it has come up with an answer to the question of how Britain can be the home of successful international banks that lend to families and businesses without exposing British taxpayers to the massive costs of those banks failing. Frankly, it is a question that should have been asked and answered a decade ago. We should all thank Sir John Vickers and the other members of the commission—Clare Spottiswoode, Martin Taylor, Bill Winters and Martin Wolf—for a job well done.
The commission and its report have not come about by accident. It was set up by the coalition Government to learn the lessons of what went so catastrophically wrong: a decade-long, debt-fuelled boom that ended in a dramatic financial crisis, a deep recession and a debt overhang that is still holding back our economy; a regulatory system that totally failed to spot enormous imbalances building up and proved incapable of dealing with the crisis when it first broke; and most importantly, in the context of this report, huge global banks that turned out to be “too big to fail”, so that taxpayers were called upon for many billions of pounds in order to prevent a financial meltdown. We still do not know, and may not know for many years, how much of that money will ever be recovered, despite promises made at the time that not a penny would be lost.
We are fundamentally changing the system of regulation and tackling the debts, but the bail-out for banks is the element of the crisis that has, justifiably, caused the most anger. It is an affront both to fairness and to the very principles of a market economy. It is not available to any other sector of the economy, nor should it be. It breaks the principle that those who take risks should face the consequences of their actions. As a result, it played an important role in encouraging the excessive risk taking that caused the crisis.
Of course, taxpayer bail-outs did not happen only in this country. An international regulatory response to the crisis is now emerging, with the new Basel rules and the anticipated new additional requirements for systemic banks, but here in Britain we cannot rely only on the international reform process to make our banking system safe. The challenge we face, and the risk for our taxpayers, is different from that in most other countries. The balance sheet of our banking system is close to 500% of our GDP, compared with just over 100% in the US and around 300% in Germany and France. Only Iceland, Ireland and Switzerland had larger banking systems, relative to their GDP, and they have all now taken action that goes well beyond new international standards. As the report states,
“part of the challenge for reform is to reconcile the UK’s position as an international financial centre with stable banking”.
This is what I have called the British dilemma: how to remain a successful global centre of finance without asking taxpayers to bear unacceptable risks or putting the broader economy at risk. We set up the Banking Commission to help us solve the British dilemma.
Mr Osborne
Let me start by welcoming the right hon. Gentleman’s support for the report of the Independent Banking Commission. I welcome the fact that he now wants to see it implemented in this country, as I understand it, even if the changes are not implemented abroad. That is a change in his position from April, which I welcome. We all enjoyed his apology for what went wrong. He has another four years of those, I think, before he makes up for the horrendous mistakes that were made.
Mr Osborne
The right hon. Gentleman was the Minister responsible for the City when Northern Rock totally lost control of its wholesale funding; he was the Minister responsible for the City when RBS launched its takeover of ABN AMRO; he was the Minister responsible for the City when HBOS was making all those unsupportable loans. No one in this House knows more about how to get it wrong than the right hon. Gentleman. He talks about unseemly bickering on the Government Front Bench, yet we have just been reading the memoirs of a former Chancellor of the Exchequer, the right hon. Member for Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling), who is no doubt about to speak. What he reveals about the regime that the shadow Chancellor operated shows that this is the pot calling the kettle black, to put it mildly.
Let me come on to the specific points that the right hon. Gentleman made. First, on the legislation in this Parliament and the draft Financial Services Bill, he is trying to make hay by exploiting a completely false distinction between principle and practice. We support these measures in principle and will put them into practice through detailed legislation. One cannot support all of this in practice because it requires detailed legislation, which even John Vickers says is not for the commission. Let there be no doubt that we support the Banking Commission’s report and that we will legislate in this Parliament. The draft Financial Services Bill might well be a vehicle for implementing some of the changes, but we might also require a separate Bill. That is partly because we need to get the draft Financial Services Bill through the House so that the new regulatory regime, which we are also introducing, is up and running by the beginning of 2013. As I said, I think it is sensible to stick with the proposal put forward by John Vickers that we set ourselves the deadline of legislating in this Parliament.
Secondly, the right hon. Gentleman talked about the international environment. He knows, as many hon. Members do, that there has been a lot of movement on the international front to introduce the new Basel requirements, which are, of course, on the same timetable as the Vickers proposal that the changes should be completed by 2019. Those are sensible changes, but we will argue for other changes that we would like to see at international level, not least the implementation of some of the agreements made under both this Government and the previous one at G20 level, on such things as bankers’ pay and remuneration. We want to see those properly implemented in all regimes. Of course, we hope that other jurisdictions, the Financial Stability Board and others will look at the report, but John Vickers was not asked to produce a regime for the world; he was asked to produce a regime for the UK to reflect the fact that we have 500% banking assets as a proportion of our GDP.
Thirdly, I am afraid that I just do not agree with the right hon. Gentleman on competition, and nor does John Vickers. The right hon. Gentleman says that we should have a Competition Commission inquiry in 2013, but my office has contacted the secretariat of the Banking Commission today to ask it for its view. The commission said that the reason why it chose 2015 is that three vital things that it wants to be operational, including the new challenger bank and the new switching of bank accounts proposals, do not come into effect until 2013. By the way, the latter is a very significant proposal, and I hope that it will get some coverage in the media among all the discussion of investment banking—the proposal is that people can easily switch their current accounts, and their direct debits and so on will follow automatically. However, that does not come into effect until 2013, and the Financial Conduct Authority is not operational till 2013.
The Banking Commission considered that timetable, and it thinks that 2015 is the right year in which to consider whether the changes are working in practice. I agree very much with that—[Interruption.] The shadow Chancellor says “12 months”, but he had 13 years to get these changes right. At the last general election, I remember having a debate with my colleague the Business Secretary and others in this House. The only party arguing against structural change of the banking system was the Labour party, so it is simply ludicrous of the shadow Chancellor to suggest that we are dragging our feet. We are getting on with it. We have produced this report within a year and a half of being in government, and now we are getting on and putting it into practice, so that we do not make the mistakes he made when he was in office.
Sir Peter Tapsell (Louth and Horncastle) (Con)
After that uncharacteristically guilt-racked contribution by the shadow Chancellor, may I, by contrast, applaud the Chancellor for appointing this Banking Commission and for withstanding the intensive lobbying against it by the very same universal banks that very nearly destroyed the world economy? May I thank him also for accepting the recommendations of the Vickers commission? Finally, may I put it to him that I very much hope that we will proceed as he has promised, not only with legislation in this Parliament, but in implementing it as soon as possible, and well before 2019, when the long grass may have grown into a forest?
Mr Osborne
I thank my right hon. Friend for his support for the Banking Commission, and for his kind words. He has many decades of experience—
Mr Osborne
Well, I think my right hon. Friend was certainly alive when Messrs Glass and Steagall were, which most Members of the House could not say.
I respect my right hon. Friend’s experience. He has long argued for some form of separation between retail and investment banking and has been consistent in making that argument. Events have borne out his advice to successive Governments.
We asked John Vickers carefully to consider the timetable, and he gave a lot of thought to it. He recommends that all the changes should be completed by 2019, but that other changes should take place at earlier dates—he specifies those dates in his work. The 2019 back-stop is appropriate, because that is the date when the international rules also need to be in place. We should not underestimate the huge amount of work to be done in this House to get the report turned into legislation that works and that people do not find ways around.
Mr Alistair Darling (Edinburgh South West) (Lab)
I am grateful to the Chancellor for plugging my book, but when he gets a chance to read it, I think that he will see that political parties on both sides of the House went along with the culture that led to some of the problems we had to deal with and that some of the shrillest voices calling for light-touch regulation were those of Members now sitting on the Treasury Bench. Will he tell us a bit more about what discussions he proposes having with other Governments, in view of the interconnected nature of the banking system, which is only as strong as its weakest part? Will he also deal with the erroneous assumption that there will never be a case in the future when a Government might have to bail out an investment bank? We should remember what happened to Lehman Brothers. It cannot ever be said that we will never have to do that again, even with a bank that is not thought now to be systemically important. I welcome the report, but it has to be seen as part of a wider range of reforms necessary to make our banking system stronger and more secure.
Mr Osborne
I respect the right hon. Gentleman’s experience of having been through all that he went through as Chancellor. He had to deal with these problems in real time over long weekends, and I have paid tribute previously to the work that he did on behalf of our country in those difficult months. As for his book, I have only just started reading it, but as far as I can see, I get off relatively lightly compared to the former Prime Minister, the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown).
The right hon. Gentleman made a good point about the interconnectedness of the banking system. The Basel rules are significant, and I believe that that process was initiated when he was Chancellor and representing the United Kingdom. New arrangements have been agreed in record time. It took 10 years to come up with Basel II, but about 18 months to come up with Basel III. The international rules are important because they help us to deal with investment banks in foreign jurisdictions, such as Lehman Brothers, and to protect all globally systemically important banks and give them bigger cushions. As he well knows, new proposals are coming down the track for additional capital requirements on the most globally systemically important banks. That is significant. Also, we are putting in place the recovery-and-resolution ideas that, again, he initiated when he was Chancellor in order to ensure that we can deal with the failure of the UK end of an American investment bank. That will ensure that these banks do not just live internationally and die nationally, but that we can resolve any problems.
I would make a broader point, however. Yes, we have to do that at an international level, but we also have to consider regimes that have large concentrations of banking, such as Switzerland—let us, for a moment, leave aside Ireland and Iceland, which were obviously virtually bankrupted by what happened. It is interesting that Switzerland, which, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, is as keen as anyone to remain internationally competitive, has introduced its own domestic regime for its banks. It is wholly appropriate for us to consider doing that in this country while, of course, recommending to other countries changes that we think are sensible for all jurisdictions.
Mr Andrew Tyrie (Chichester) (Con)
Sir John Vickers has made a strong case both on competition, on which he has endorsed proposals from the Treasury Committee, and on the ring fence, on which the Committee will now be taking evidence from him. On the timing of implementation, however, rather than adding a ring fence to the list of measures in the current Financial Services Bill, which is already long and complex, surely it is sensible to commit now to a separate ring-fencing Bill in this Parliament, while making it clear now that full implementation of the higher capital and debt requirements, which might lead in the short term to lending risks, can be left at least until 2018 or possibly later?
Mr Osborne
The Chairman of the Treasury Select Committee makes a sensible suggestion. It is likely—I do not want to say certain—that we will need a separate piece of legislation on some of these specific changes to banking. However, I hope that we can also use the Financial Services Bill to implement other key parts of the reform. That is the case because we want to get this right. The draft Bill is currently being discussed by the Joint Committee chaired by my right hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr Lilley), and we simply will not be able to produce all that detail in the next couple of months before the Bill is introduced. We have to get this right. As John Vickers said, short-termism got us into this mess, and we need a bit of long-termism to get it right. However, I hope that the commitment to legislate in this Parliament reassures people that it is going to happen in this Parliament. This bunch of Ministers, this Government, will be held accountable if we do not legislate in this Parliament. We have given a clear commitment, and I am sure that the work of the Treasury Committee, which my hon. Friend chairs, in looking at how this report can be put into practice will be very valuable.
Mr Michael Meacher (Oldham West and Royton) (Lab)
Why effect a firewall between retail and investment banking—which is highly complex and which the banks will use every device to get round—rather than effecting a clean break, which provided 60 years of stable banking after the great depression? Why wait eight years to implement some of the changes, when that will continue to expose taxpayers to another financial crash and when the banks are still too big to fail?
Mr Osborne
One of the original purposes of creating the Banking Commission was to try to resolve the argument, which is held in this Chamber and elsewhere, about whether to split banks, ring-fence them or leave things as they are. In this report John Vickers goes through all the arguments for a complete separation of the banks and comes down on the side of saying that it would not be sensible. He thinks that the cost to the economy would be particularly high, and without any real stability benefits. He also thinks that there are circumstances where one would want a retail bank to be supported by the rest of the bank—the investment bank—and have money transferred into it, which would enhance stability. The third point, which will not be universally popular in this Chamber, is that such a separation would be almost unenforceable under European law, because other European banks—or, indeed, one of our banks that had moved to another European jurisdiction—could passport money in. For those three reasons, John Vickers does not think it sensible to split the banks up.
Stephen Williams (Bristol West) (LD)
Reform of the banks was one of the key foundation stones of the coalition Government, so I very much welcome today’s report. The public will certainly expect this Government to legislate as soon as possible to enact the various parts of the report, but they will need a reassurance today that there will be no excuse for the banks not returning to lending to small and medium-sized businesses, which are so necessary for our economies to return to sustainable growth.
Mr Osborne
The agreement among my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, the Business Secretary, me, the Prime Minister and other members of the coalition Government has been solid on this report. Anyone who has been looking for disagreement in the coalition has not really been able to find it today because both parties agreed that this was a good idea and we both support the report’s conclusions. On lending, briefly, we have the Merlin agreements and we are trying to protect small and medium-sized businesses as these huge banks deleverage, and the process has helped to do that. Indeed, the targets are for a big increase in small business lending, and I am confident that they will be met.
Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/Co-op)
It does not take an expert in forecasting—or even the Chancellor of the Exchequer—to foresee large banks seeking to use the proposed changes to increase restrictions on customers accessing bank accounts, cashpoints and other services, or to impose charges for bank accounts. What reassurance can the Chancellor provide me and my constituents that his Government will not let that happen?
Mr Osborne
As I said in my initial statement, an important part of this report—it will not be at the top of the evening news tonight, but it is important—is the proposals to enhance competition on the high street and create a new challenger bank, so that customers have real choices. There is also a proposal for a free service that would enable anyone who wanted to switch their current account to do so almost immediately, with all their direct debits and all the other things attached to their account switched too. That will really help customers to shop around—at the moment, customers do not switch their current accounts because they think that it would be too difficult and cumbersome—and is one of the most retail-friendly proposals in the report.
Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)
If there is one class of people more unpopular than MPs, it is bankers—and I know where all the populist pressure is coming from. However, regulators do not create wealth; they stifle it. Does my right hon. Friend acknowledge that we have to live in the real world and that London’s pre-eminent position is based on the fact that we have the lightest regulatory regime in Europe? Will he undertake to preserve that for the sake of our wealth creation and not kill the goose that lays the golden egg?
Mr Osborne
Well, it was not much of a golden egg, unfortunately, in recent years. It is important for this country that London, Edinburgh and other centres remain globally competitive and that London remains the pre-eminent global centre for finance. Some of the changes taking place in the City, such as the one I mentioned, involving trying to develop an offshore renminbi market, are all part of London being a competitive place to do business. However, being a competitive place in which to do financial services does not mean that there has to be a huge taxpayer subsidy for universal banks and their retail banking arms in the UK. John Vickers explicitly deals with the competition issue. People might have expected him to come to a different conclusion on this, but one of the interesting things he said was that we should not impose additional capital-to-equity ratios on investment banks, precisely because he does not want us to make them internationally uncompetitive.
Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP)
I thank the Chancellor for his statement, and for giving me early sight of it. I congratulate the commission on the report, and particularly on the report’s dealing with the resilience in the banks and its rejection of splitting up the universal banks in favour of flexible ring-fencing. However, the timetable for this is eight years from today until the final implementation. That is necessary because of the complexity and the potential cost to the banks of implementation, but will the Chancellor ensure that the banks do not consider the next eight years to be a hiatus during which they can return to business, and bonuses, as usual? Will he also ensure that he drives forward as many of these recommendations as he can as quickly as possible before the 2019 backstop?
Mr Osborne
I will not repeat what I have said about the timetable. Suffice it to say that it is what John Vickers recommended, having really thought about it. This involves a combination of getting the detail right and ensuring that the changes do not unduly damage credit supply in the short term. That is why he has recommended a longer timetable. As he pointed out at his press conference this morning, once we propose such changes and start to legislate for them, some of them will start to happen anyway as banks try to get ahead of the curve—that is certainly what happened with Basel, although they were arguably too quick to get ahead of the curve in that instance—and that is what he anticipates happening when the changes are introduced.
Michael Fallon (Sevenoaks) (Con)
Given the report’s emphasis not only on the size of the British banking sector but on the lack of competition within it, will the Chancellor assure the House that he will follow through on the recommendations to encourage new and challenger banks to provide the finance that our small businesses desperately need?
Mr Osborne
I can absolutely give my hon. Friend that assurance. The report addresses the issue of Lloyds, which is required to sell branches under European Union state aid requirements. John Vickers thinks that the key test for the Government’s handling of the Lloyds issue will be whether we have created an effective challenger bank. He thinks that any such new bank should have about 6% of the personal current account market, which is more than the state aid proposals would lead to, and that it should be properly funded. I take those recommendations very seriously.
Mr Nicholas Brown (Newcastle upon Tyne East) (Lab)
What reassurance can the Chancellor give the House that the ring-fencing will be effective at the time when it is most likely to be tested—namely, in the run-up to another debt or liquidity crisis? I listened to his earlier answer about the investment banks putting money into the high street banks, and about that being an advantage for the proposals for ring-fencing, but I have to tell him that I do not find that wholly convincing. If the idea is to get support, he has to be able to explain to the House how this proposal will work when it is required to do so.
Mr Osborne
In a sense, the right hon. Gentleman is right. The proof of all the arrangements that we are putting in place, and the international arrangements, will be in the pudding—although it is not really the kind of pudding that we want, because it is a banking crisis.
Mr Osborne
Yes, perhaps there are too many kitchen metaphors. The point I was making is that we are trying to clean up the mess.
We should not just assume that banking crashes happen every 70 or 100 years. We must hope that they will never happen at all, but we need to put in place the regulatory arrangements, capital requirements and structural changes that will ensure that the person who is in the hot seat the next time it happens, and has to do the job that the right hon. Member for Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling) had to do, will have more tools available to him than the right hon. Gentleman had as Chancellor.
Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con)
Regulation in the banking sector has already changed beyond all recognition. In my view, the best bit of that regulation is giving accountability back to the Bank of England. There is no doubt, however, that yet more regulation will have a cost. We can see from bank share prices now that investors already think that the future of the banks is not as glowing as it was. Does my right hon. Friend agree that in order for small and medium-sized enterprises and personal current account customers to benefit in the future, we need a more diversified banking sector and we need to encourage more competition and to go beyond what the Vickers commission is doing by promoting it through the Financial Conduct Authority as well as through our implementation of the Independent Commission on Banking proposals.
Mr Osborne
I hesitate to read out bank share prices, as they might have changed in the 45 minutes I have been on my feet The reaction from the banks today has not dramatically affected the prices of UK bank shares. There has not been a dramatic fall, nor indeed a dramatic rise. They have remained broadly flat—unlike those of French and German banks, which are very substantially down today. What that also suggests is that John Vickers—and, I would argue, the Government—did a good job in trying to price the proposals into the share price by giving clear signposts about the way in which we were going, so that it did not come as a big surprise. I completely agree with my hon. Friend about the Financial Conduct Authority. As a member of the Select Committee, she can look at some of the Vickers’ proposals potentially to change the FCA’s remit. We need to consider that, as do Members who are looking at the Bill.
Mr George Mudie (Leeds East) (Lab)
On ring-fencing, Vickers suggests 2019 as a back-stop, but page 151 of the report makes it clear that “efforts” should be
“made to complete it sooner.”
Does the Chancellor accept that recommendation from Vickers and, if not, why not?
Mr Osborne
I, too, used the phrase “back-stop” in the statement. Vickers recommends that the changes be completed by 2019, but also recommended in his press conference that they be legislated for in this Parliament and that some of the changes might take place before that. We need to consider all these issues, but I think we need to pay attention to the 2019 date that Vickers sets out in his report.
Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con)
I congratulate the Chancellor on this report, but I believe it takes for granted the adequacy of accounting standards. Will he look again at the incentives and risks inherent in the international financial reporting standard?
Mr Osborne
Yes, I will certainly do that. One of the discussions going on in international circles at the moment is how to make all the various standard-setting bodies more accountable. They are very powerful institutions now and they are not really accountable to national Parliaments or international bodies that represent national Governments. Discussion is going on about how the Financial Stability Board, which is the organisation that brings together different banking areas and different countries to discuss regulation, might be able to make the international accounting standards more accountable.
Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)
Small and medium-sized enterprises are going to be at the heart of any future economic recovery. I went around a number of businesses in my constituency during the summer recess and the message I was getting, which is different from what the Chancellor has said, was that they are still finding it difficult to get banks to provide lending and support. What is the Chancellor going to do about it? Those businesses cannot wait around for a few years for legislation to happen, so what is the Chancellor going to do today, next week and next month to improve the lending and support from banks, as it is still a problem for the businesses in my constituency?
Mr Osborne
I have already talked about how the Merlin agreements try to protect and indeed increase small and medium-sized business lending at a time when many of these banks are shrinking their balance-sheets, which were over-extended. We have talked a lot about timetables. The Lloyds divestment and the creation of a new challenger bank are things that have to be got on with this year. The offer has to be put to bidders this year and it must be completed by 2013—and, hopefully, sooner. In other words, we are encouraging the creation of a new presence on the high street, which should give the hon. Gentleman’s constituents greater choice and competition.
Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD)
This report is warmly welcomed, as, indeed, is the Chancellor’s response. It has to be said, however, that 2019 is a long time away. Will the Chancellor reassure the House, business and the public by publishing as soon as possible the specific route by which these recommendations will be implemented?
Mr Osborne
As I have said, the 2019 back-stop is the considered view of John Vickers and his commission. They have spent an enormous amount of time thinking about this, about trying to get the balance right between getting the rules in place, getting the rules right, and ensuring that they do not damage credit supply in the short term, about which many Members have asked. The report contains other milestones—some of the changes that he wants to see put into place by 2013, for example. John Vickers has done a good piece of work, and given a lot of thought to the issues, and I do not want to second-guess them just hours after he has published his report. We will produce a full, detailed response to the report by the end of the year.
Mr Chuka Umunna (Streatham) (Lab)
The Chancellor has referred to Project Merlin, which is generally regarded as a fairly ineffectual agreement, not least because, according to Bank of England figures, net lending to small and medium-sized enterprises has contracted month on month. Across the House, we can agree that it would be undesirable for politicians to seek directly to run the banks in which we have a public stake, but surely that should not preclude the Chancellor asking United Kingdom Financial Investments Ltd to ensure that the banks change the culture that they exercise towards SMEs. When was the Chancellor’s last discussion with UKFI about that?
Mr Osborne
I talk to UKFI all the time, and one of the things I talk about is ensuring that the banks in which we have a public ownership of shares are meeting their Merlin lending targets. I congratulate Lloyds, which has changed its operations and advertising campaigns and has tried to encourage small business lending. The hon. Gentleman talks about targets, but again there is complete amnesia about the fact that Labour were in government about 18 months ago. The Labour Government introduced net lending targets, which he wants us to introduce, abandoned them after 12 months, after those targets were completely missed, and then said in the House of Commons that they would introduce gross lending targets for two banks, RBS and Lloyds. We have not just stuck with the methodology that they developed, but have extended it to the entire banking system. Before they criticise those trying to clear up the mess, Labour should remember what they did in office.
Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)
I welcome my right hon. Friend’s comment that we should not confuse the interests of bank shareholders with those of taxpayers. Should we not also remind ourselves, however, that unless the shareholders are doing well, the bank balance sheets will not be doing well, and ultimately small business borrowers will not be doing well? He is winning the argument on the reforms, but will he reassure the House that he is mindful of the cost of capital of banks? By raising business costs for banks, we would be in danger not only of driving them offshore, but of raising the costs of capital for UK business.
Mr Osborne
Of course, that is the difficult balance that we all must get right. The challenge is to ensure that banks can lend well, as people have been asking them to, while at the same time ensuring that they have a greater cushion should things go wrong. In his report, one of the things that John Vickers points to is that if a bank is ring-fenced, its retail deposits are more likely to be used to support retail lending than to support an investment bank’s activities. He thinks that the ring fence could positively enhance lending opportunities for ring-fenced banks.
Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)
Given that Northern Rock had no investment arm and Lehmans had no retail arm, does the Chancellor have any sympathy with the view that ring-fencing will add little over the proper capital requirements and ethical investment decisions that Vickers calls for, save for £6 billion additional cost to the UK economy?
Mr Osborne
The short answer is no, I do not. On pages 31, 32 and 33, the report of John Vickers and his commission goes through how the reforms would have improved the situation regarding Northern Rock, Lehman Brothers, RBS and HBOS. We must remember that the reforms are in the round. I have been asked a lot about ring-fencing and retail lending, but there are also higher capital requirements, and a requirement for a loss-absorbing cushion for bondholders. Those changes would also have helped with Northern Rock. On top of that, the new regulatory regime would, I hope, have exercised more judgment.
Of course, the ring-fencing idea, which is just one of the four or five major recommendations, is only really relevant to universal banks. The only universal bank listed by the hon. Gentleman that went wrong is RBS. As is clear from the memoirs of the former Chancellor, ring-fencing would have helped enormously to resolve the problems of a very complex universal bank without the need for recourse to the taxpayer.
Sajid Javid (Bromsgrove) (Con)
The ICB’s ring-fencing proposals are not so very different from the Glass–Steagall provisions that existed in the United States. I worked for a United States bank under Glass–Steagall. I was also there when Glass–Steagall was abolished in 1999, and witnessed the adverse change in behaviour. On the basis of my experience at the coalface, may I reassure the Chancellor that he is right to welcome the proposals?
Mr Osborne
My hon. Friend—who wrote what I thought was a very good piece for The Times, published on 9 September—has made a point based on his personal experience. I may or may not offend someone when I say that he is probably the most senior former investment banker in the House of Commons.
Mr Osborne
That is because they leave the House of Commons and go to work for investment banks.
My hon. Friend's experience was that an investment bank had many incentives to use retail deposits to subsidise its activity. That was not always right, and Glass–Steagall helped to stop it. We are not reintroducing Glass–Steagall, or introducing it in the United Kingdom; we have a different set of proposals which John Vickers has spent time developing, and I think that they meet the challenge that my hon. Friend set out in his article.
Sir Stuart Bell (Middlesbrough) (Lab)
The House will certainly have welcomed the statement that retail banks are likely in the future to funnel their deposits into domestic lending rather than the vast maw of the money markets. The Chancellor has said that there ought to be 10% capital for the retail banks. Presumably that is high-quality equity, and it is reported that a further 10% of non-equity may be required. May I ask the Chancellor to ensure that the capital requirements are no greater than those of Basel III? Too tall a requirement might cut across growth, and cut across lending to the small and medium-sized business sector.
Mr
Osborne: The 10% capital requirement against risk-weighted assets is based on the same definition as, and goes a bit beyond, the Basel rules, which recommend 7%. At present, however, the Financial Stability Board is developing proposals to add 2.5% for large, systemically important banks such as RBS and Barclays. The difference will be between 9.5% and 10%, which is quite close, for the retail ring-fenced side. On the investment side, as I have said, the commission does not recommend going beyond the international rules in order to keep London competitive.
Claire Perry (Devizes) (Con)
On that point, let me say that I welcome the careful timetable that has been set out. That is particularly important when the Government are prepared to act unilaterally, which the last Government were not prepared to do.
May I urge the Chancellor, when faced with the inevitable whingeing from banks saying that they are considering leaving the United Kingdom, to bear it in mind that the UK retail business is unbelievably profitable, and to say that banks that want to leave should exit their business or be invited to do so?
Mr Osborne
I agree with my hon. Friend that London and the United Kingdom constitute a very attractive place in which to locate a universal bank. We have what I think will be the best regulatory regime in the world, with the best regulators. We also have a good rule of law. This is a good place in which to live, and it happens to have a good time zone as well. All those factors make it a very good place from which to run financial services.
Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland) (Lab)
The Chancellor may recall that the coalition agreement called for net lending targets for the nationalised banks. Why did the Project Merlin deal involve much weaker targets for gross lending?
Mr Osborne
Net lending targets were tried by the previous Government, and when we looked at that in detail on coming into office, we saw why they had failed so spectacularly, and decided not to repeat the mistake.
Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con)
May I commend the Chancellor on setting up the commission and on making such an unambiguous statement today? Will he confirm that he has the full backing of the Government, and that No. 10 will not be unleashing the “forces of hell” on No. 11?
Mr Osborne
One thing that has dramatically changed under this Government is the relationship between those in No. 10 and No. 11. We not only talk to each other, but also occasionally share a friendly drink.
Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op)
The commission appears to have diluted its interim proposal to place a duty on the regulator to promote competition, but the Treasury Committee stated in its report on this subject that that was a crucial recommendation. The Chancellor has mentioned the importance of competition on numerous occasions today. Will he look again at this recommendation and ensure that we maximise the opportunities to improve competition in the market for the benefit of consumers and taxpayers?
Mr Osborne
I do not think the hon. Gentleman is being entirely fair. A specific part of the report deals with the remit of the new Financial Conduct Authority, and it says that—although we have changed our proposal in the light of the interim report, as I announced at the Mansion House—we could go further and make the requirement to promote competition an overriding duty on the authority. We should look at that over the next couple of months. I would welcome the input of the Select Committee, and we could respond later this year.
Matthew Hancock (West Suffolk) (Con)
On the impact of these reforms on lending, does the Chancellor agree that bad banks are bad for growth too, and therefore strengthening our banks and financial services industry, as proposed in the report, is good for the UK economy?
Mr Osborne
Yes, in short: I agree with my hon. Friend. John Vickers and his commissioners explicitly address the costs and benefits of these changes, and although they accept that there will be some additional costs, they will be more than outweighed by the broader benefits that include the benefits of having an environment in which banks are seen as more stable and the benefit to the UK economy of retail banks using their retail deposits to support retail lending.
Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Some 100,000 jobs in Edinburgh are reliant on the financial services sector, including many tens of thousands in my constituency. How can the Chancellor reassure the House and my constituents that the banks will not pay the cost of implementing the Vickers report recommendations by cutting my constituents’ jobs?
Mr Osborne
Of course, one of the groups of people who are the innocent victims of what went wrong are the many people who worked in the branches of banks such as RBS and HBOS throughout the country and who lost their jobs even though they were not investment bankers working in the City of London or trading mortgage derivatives and so forth. I hope that we can now build a successful and competitive banking system that, in Scotland and elsewhere, hires people, opens branches and reverses the trend of recent years. Such groups of people have definitely been the innocent victims of what went wrong and we must do right by them.
Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con)
What impact does my right hon. Friend think these generally welcome proposals will have on the timing of the return of our nationalised banks to the private sector?
Mr Osborne
Of course, we all want to see the return of the banks to the private sector. If truth be told, the big fall in recent months in the share prices of these banks and others—American and European—around the world have pushed that timetable back a little further. I do not think that that is a surprise to anyone. Our objective is to get these banks back into private hands, and Northern Rock—the good part of Northern Rock, I should stress—is currently up for sale.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
Many of my constituents worked for HBOS, and some of them still work for Lloyds TSB. Many of them—and many people throughout the country—would like to know whether the Banking Commission report will do anything to change the values and culture of the banking sector, which to them seems to have been characterised by greed, selfishness and irresponsibility. Is there anything in this report that will lead the sector to have higher standards of moral values and behaviour?
Mr Osborne
It will help to see a return of relationship banking, which disappeared over not just the past few years, but the past few decades. It will also make the people running large banks more focused on their retail arms and on delivering a good customer service. The arrival of new faces on the high street will also help to do that, because it will make people up their game. I am not sure that I would describe this as a return to “Captain Mainwaring banking”, as it is sometimes described, because, as I recall from “Dad’s Army”, he was not very good at running anything. What we actually want is good relationship banking where banks understand their customers—
Mr Osborne
The hon. Gentleman says we’re all doomed, but the idea of these reforms is to ensure that we are not doomed in the future.
Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con)
Following on from the Chancellor’s answer to the hon. Member for Middlesbrough (Sir Stuart Bell), the figures in the Vickers report indicate that there will need to be between £200 billion and £400 billion of equity capital and other funds at risk within the ring fence. What impact will that have on the provision of capital and credit to business?
Mr Osborne
John Vickers explicitly examines the argument that this will somehow undermine credit and comes to the conclusion that it will not. He says that, first, because the broader benefits of a stable banking system to the banks themselves and to the economy outweigh the costs and, secondly, because retail banks will, as I say, be more encouraged to use their retail deposits to support retail lending.
Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)
One of the forms of banking competition that many people in Britain want is the encouragement of more mutuals, with a legal safeguard to prevent them from being refloated. What plans does the Chancellor have to progress that agenda?
Mr Osborne
We do want to see more mutuals created—we have explicitly said that in relation to Northern Rock, while not ruling out other potential options for Northern Rock. We have also taken action to strengthen credit unions, which are another part of the piece. It will be good to see mutuals growing, and the proposals in the report, particularly those on competition and the switching of current accounts, will help the mutual sector.
Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con)
I welcome the Chancellor’s considered response to the Vickers report. Will he comment on the implications of the proposed reforms for his strategy of rebalancing the UK economy towards manufacturing and regions outside London and the south-east?
Mr Osborne
The proposals will help because they will mean that these universal banks will have retail banking arms, in a ring fence, that are very focused on getting lending going to the economy outside the centre of London. We may think of it like this: the boss of the Royal Bank of Scotland a couple of years ago would have had someone running NatWest—running a ring-fenced subsidiary—who would have been totally focused on trying to get NatWest lending as a successful retail bank, rather than worrying about whether they could take over a Dutch investment bank. The ring fence will mean that parts of a universal bank will be extremely focused on getting support to businesses, in the black country and elsewhere.
Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)
Eight years is a long time, given that we are facing a sovereign debt crisis across Europe and, possibly, the end of the euro in that time frame. Does the Chancellor accept that the taxpayer will continue to foot the bill in the event of an investment bank, such as Lehman’s, collapsing? Does he accept that we will remain in a situation where bankers can take irresponsible risks and receive massive bonuses if they come up trumps, and where the taxpayer will continue to have to pay out if they go down?
Mr Osborne
The hon. Gentleman is being unnecessarily defeatist. I do not see why we cannot construct a regime that means we do not have to bail out banks when they fail. There are a number of different parts to this: requiring banks to hold more capital, including requiring people who hold bonds in the bank, as well as shareholders, to suffer a loss should the bank fail; the role of the regulator in preventing banks from doing stupid things, such as buying a big Dutch investment bank once the credit markets had already frozen up; and the proposals on ring-fencing. We have to work to get to a system where we are not standing behind banks that are too big to fail. If that were the case, we would end up with a banking system that is just a utility, and that would change the way in which banking interacts with our economy. We want banking to be successful and to be out there lending, but we want it to be properly regulated and we want to make sure that we do not have to stand behind it.
Jesse Norman (Hereford and South Herefordshire) (Con)
I very much associate myself with the remarks about mutuals and credit unions, but I want to ask the Chancellor about what the commission says about competition, for which it has some excellent recommendations and it is all too easy to think that they apply merely to the retail sector. Does the Chancellor support the idea that we should be taking the wholesale sector as seriously as the retail sector, given that equity underwriting fees, for example, have gone from 2% 20 years ago to something like 4%, 5% or even 6% today?
Mr Osborne
My hon. Friend is right to raise the issue of competition in the investment banking sector. It is not often talked about outside the pages of the Financial Times, but it can be very uncompetitive, the fees can be exceptionally high, and there is that old maxim that no one ever got fired for hiring Goldman Sachs. The report will enable Britain to remain a home of competitive investment banking while protecting retail customers. That should encourage new entrants and drive down the fees that are charged. That would all be a good thing.
Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab)
In the first six months of this year, the five major UK banks lent £63 billion to non-financial corporations, excluding small and medium-sized enterprises. The Vickers recommendations would not oblige the banks to protect that lending via the 10% capital requirement for retail banks within the ring fence. Does the Chancellor agree with that recommendation, which would contribute to up to two thirds of all bank balance sheet holdings being outside the protection of the ring fence?
Mr Osborne
Again, I think we should trust the judgment of John Vickers and his commissioners. They explicitly considered whether to prescribe more closely than they have the scope of the ring fence—I am not talking about the height now, but the scope—and whether to include lending to larger corporates inside or outside it. They decided to leave that open to the banks. We will consider that advice and recommendation, but it strikes me as quite sensible to have some flexibility about the scope, if not necessarily the height, of the ring fence.
Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance)
I welcome the Chancellor’s statement this afternoon. The availability of lending for small businesses and competition in personal banking are as significant to my constituents as they are to those of other Members. In Northern Ireland, however, both are impacted on directly by the Irish banks. What aspects of the report could inform the ongoing discussions with the Irish Government to ensure that those issues are effectively addressed for Northern Ireland businesses and individuals?
Mr Osborne
We are in near constant discussion with the Irish authorities about the Irish banks and their impact on the rest of the UK, including, of course, Northern Ireland. In the next few weeks, the UK will disburse the first part of its loan to Ireland, which formed part of the Bill that was passed through this House at the end of last year. Because we passed that Bill and made the loan to Ireland, we are around the table having that discussion all the time with the Irish authorities about the impact of the Irish banks on the rest of the UK. I do not think we would be at that table if we had not made that loan, and I assure the hon. Lady that both I and the Financial Secretary have been spending a huge amount of time on the Irish banks, and we are well aware of the impact on Northern Ireland. If she wants to talk to us about that at any time, we would be very willing to have that meeting.
Oral Answers to Questions
George Osborne Excerpts(13 years, 2 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab)
1. What recent assessment he has made of the level of taxation levied on the banking industry.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne)
Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs published details of total pay-as-you-earn and corporation tax receipts from the banking sector for the first time on 31 August. The official statistics show that tax receipts from the sector increased from £17.3 billion in 2009-10 to £21 billion in 2010-11. A number of other taxes are incurred by the banking sector that the Office for National Statistics did not include in the figures, including the new bank levy introduced by this Government, which we expect will raise an additional £2.5 billion net each year, which is more in each and every year than the previous Government raised in their one-off payroll tax.
Clive Efford
I am grateful to the Chancellor for that answer, but the truth is that the High Pay Commission has just published a report demonstrating that high executive pay bears no relation to the performance of companies and that nowhere is this more starkly illustrated than in the banking sector. Meanwhile, youth unemployment is going up. Is it not time we made the banking sector pay its fair share in order to do something for the young unemployed in this country, as advocated by the Opposition?
Mr Osborne
That is why we introduced the bank levy, which Labour had 13 years to introduce but did not. It raises £2.5 billion. We are also taking action to clamp down on tax avoidance. We recently proposed a measure to tackle something called disguised remuneration, whereby high earners, often in the financial services sector, disguise their income to avoid tax, but the Labour party voted against the measure.
Sir Peter Tapsell (Louth and Horncastle) (Con)
As we are discussing banking, may I again put it to the Chancellor that further delay in ring-fencing retail banking from investment banking can only perpetuate the appalling shibboleth that big banks cannot fail? Until we debunk that shibboleth, the capitalist system will remain at risk.
Mr Osborne
My right hon. Friend makes a powerful point. We must learn the lessons of what went wrong in the regulation of our banking system and ask deep questions about how, as an economy, we underwrite that system. That is why the Government asked John Vickers and his fellow commissioners to look at the structure of the banking system and at how we can ensure that Britain can be home to global banks but, at the same time, the British taxpayer can be protected should those banks fail. Of course, John Vickers will publish his final report next week and I am sure that there will be plenty of discussion about it.
Ed Balls (Morley and Outwood) (Lab/Co-op)
With the future jobs fund and education maintenance allowance abolished, Labour Members have been urging the Chancellor to repeat the bank bonus tax on top of the bank levy in order to get young people into work. The Chancellor claims that the economy is recovering, unemployment is falling and that such action is unnecessary, so will he tell the House how many more young people, compared with a year ago, are now not in education, employment or training?
Mr Osborne
The number of 16 and 17-year-old NEETs has actually come down, and more than 500,000 new jobs have been created in the private sector over the past year. The right hon. Gentleman talks about the bonus tax, and I will use not the advice I have been given by Treasury officials to respond, but the advice I have been given by the previous Chancellor of the Exchequer, someone we know he is very close to. The previous Chancellor said this of the bonus tax, and he after all is the man who introduced it:
“It will be a one-off thing because, frankly, the very people you are after here are very good at getting out of these things and... will find all sorts of imaginative ways of avoiding it”.
That is why he did not want it to be anything more than a one-off tax, and that is why we introduced a much more permanent and sustainable tax on the banks, which the right hon. Gentleman never introduced when he was City Minister. It is a permanent bank levy that raises more net every year than the one-off bonus tax did.
Ed Balls
Unemployment is rising and the stock market is plummeting—it is no surprise that the Chancellor does not want to answer the question about youth unemployment. Let me tell the House that the number of young people between 18 and 25 out of work and not in education, employment or training has gone up in the past year by 18%: 119,000 more young people are unemployed. Let me tell the Chancellor what my right hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling) said on “Newsnight” last night:
“The government, by going so fast, is really strangling the economy…if you go too fast you stall”—
Ed Balls
The question that people will be asking is if the Chancellor will not change his mind on the bank bonus tax, on VAT and on the pace of deficit reduction, why is he now changing his mind on stalling bank reform? He said that we were all in it together. Why is there one rule for the banks and another rule for everyone else?
Mr Osborne
Now we can see why the former Chancellor has said that the Labour party had no credible economic policy. The shadow Chancellor had all summer to think of that question, and the best he came up with was that we were not regulating the banks. He was the City Minister when the City exploded. We have taken action better to regulate the banks. We set up the commission that will report next week. As for downgraded numbers, the fastest falling numbers around here are his economic credibility numbers.
Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con)
It would be good to get more tax out of RBS, a state-owned bank, but unfortunately it is still loss making. Will the Chancellor or a relevant Minister have an urgent meeting with its executives so that they can have a better plan for cutting risks, selling assets and making some money for the taxpayer?
Mr Osborne
My right hon. Friend is, of course, right that the British banking system has had its challenges—not least over the summer, with its share prices. We are in regular discussion with the banks about that, of course, and we will of course have many discussions about the future structure of banking. We need a profitable banking sector that lends to the real economy. We have in place targets to see an increase in lending to small businesses. But my right hon. Friend is absolutely right that a key part of the recovery is a return to health for the financial services industry and the financial system.
Vernon Coaker (Gedling) (Lab)
2. What assessment he has made of the effects on the economy of recent trends in domestic energy prices.
Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)
12. What recent assessment he has made of the financial crisis in the eurozone.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne)
The financial crisis in the eurozone is extremely serious. Fortunately, Britain is not in the euro; unfortunately, however, we are not immune to the instability on our doorstep. The euro area must implement its policy commitments to address the crisis, made most recently at the July summit. As I have said, the euro area should follow the remorseless logic of monetary union with greater fiscal integration. We must ensure that we are not part of that integration and that our national interests are protected and promoted at all points.
Mr Nuttall
I thank the Chancellor for that reply. Given that the crisis in the eurozone was caused by some member states having too much debt, would it not be a good idea—rather than increasing those debts with further bail-outs—for this country to press for the European treaties to be amended to allow a country to leave the euro while remaining in the European Union if it still wished to do so? As things stand, that is not possible.
Mr Osborne
As my hon. Friend knows, the treaty does not provide for a member state to leave at the moment, and there is no immediate prospect of major treaty renegotiation—something that the German Government have made very clear again this week. In other words, we need to focus on the task at hand, which is implementing all the agreements, communiqués and commitments made in recent months by the eurozone. That is absolutely crucial to the stability not just of the eurozone but of the wider global economy.
Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)
Is the Chancellor aware that under the previous Labour Government, of whom the current shadow Chancellor was a prominent member, a euro preparations unit with a staff of 17 worked for 13 years on 11,500 documents to prepare Britain for joining the euro?
Mr Speaker
Order. I am grateful to the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies), but his question bears no relation to the responsibilities of the current Government and we will therefore leave it there.
Mr Julian Brazier (Canterbury) (Con)
Would my right hon. Friend accept that the fact that the euro has strengthened as a currency indicates that the markets believe that the weaker countries will not be able to push water up hill for much longer and are bound to drop out of the euro before very long?
Mr Osborne
I do not think that it would be appropriate for me to comment directly on the value of the euro, but I would observe that we have a weak US dollar and that that may have had an impact on the value of the euro. As I said just now, it is important for us to focus on the task in hand, which is implementing the agreement most recently signed on 21 July by the eurozone. Of course we can and should have a discussion about the future of the euro and its governance arrangements—and that is important—but the euro is here to stay and we have to ensure that it works for Europe. I do not want Britain to be part of the euro, and there is no prospect of that happening—[Interruption.] Labour Members seem to forget that they are still committed in principle to joining the euro. This Government will not join the euro, but it is in our interests that the euro works.
Sir Stuart Bell (Middlesbrough) (Lab)
Is the Chancellor aware that, with the exception of Portugal, growth among member states of the eurozone is higher than ours? If fiscal union is to take place, and there is to be a common euro bond, in which order does he think they should come?
Mr Osborne
As I have been saying in recent weeks, we need to follow the remorseless logic of monetary union. That was one of the reasons I was against Britain joining the euro—I thought it would lead to greater fiscal integration and common budget policies. There is obviously an active debate about what that might mean, and I would suggest that the first thing that the eurozone countries need to do is to implement the package agreed on 21 July.
May I correct the hon. Gentleman? It is not the case—sadly—that Britain has the slowest growth in Europe. Actually, the problem is that German growth in the last quarter was 0.1% and French growth for Q2 was zero. That is the challenge—a eurozone where growth is faltering, and the situation in the United States. We have to deal with these international problems as well as addressing the very serious problems that we inherited.
Mr Speaker
I am grateful to the Chancellor. We do not want the slowest growth, but neither do we want the slowest questions and answers.
Mr Andrew Tyrie (Chichester) (Con)
The Chancellor has made it clear that he thinks that a monetary union requires a fiscal union. Can a credible fiscal union be put in place without a treaty change?
Mr Osborne
I think that we can take important steps towards greater co-ordination of fiscal policy by implementing, as I say, the agreements that the eurozone came up with before the summer. That is the task at hand now. Speculating now about major treaty change is unrealistic. It is not going to happen in the next few years. It would take several years to bring about such a major treaty change and get it ratified by all the national Parliaments, even if those Parliaments agreed to it. The challenge this autumn is to bring greater stability to the euro’s governance arrangement, which is what our colleagues in the EU want to do.
Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab)
The Chancellor recently boasted that Britain is a safe haven from the problems in the eurozone, so will he tell us which EU countries have grown more slowly than the UK in the past 12 months, not in the last quarter?
Mr Osborne
As I said, this year, unfortunately, the German economy, the French economy and other major eurozone economies—[Hon. Members: “Ah!”] If Opposition Members do not want to look at the most recent numbers, it is no wonder they have not got a credible economic policy. Until they get one, and take a view on the eurozone and what is happening in Germany, France and the United States, they are not going to be taken seriously, as the former Chancellor of the Exchequer, the right hon. Member for Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling), has reminded them.
Ms Eagle
I do not think that the Chancellor knew the answer to that question, but today’s euro figures have revealed that only two countries—Romania and Portugal—have done worse on growth than the UK in the past year. Only yesterday, the Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government, the right hon. Member for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark), said from the Dispatch Box that there is a crisis of growth in this country. Was not the Chancellor’s friend, the new head of the IMF, Christine Lagarde, right at the weekend when she said that
“growth is necessary for fiscal credibility… We know that slamming on the brakes too quickly will hurt the”
economy “and worsen job prospects”?
We know that he will not listen to us, but why does the Chancellor not listen to sound advice from his friends, including, we hear, on this weekend’s draft G7 statement, which aims to slow the pace of deficit reduction—
Mr Speaker
Order. I am extremely grateful to the hon. Lady. I think that we have got the gist of it.
Mr Osborne
I can tell the House that Christine Lagarde will be in London on Friday. We will hear what she has to say then.
Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con)
6. What recent discussions he has had with his international counterparts on steps to reduce Government budget deficits.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne)
At the last G20 summit, advanced countries committed to implementing clear, credible, ambitious and growth-friendly medium-term fiscal consolidation plans, differentiated according to national circumstances. I will further discuss fiscal consolidation plans in the G7, G20 and IMF meetings later this month.
Paul Maynard
Does the Chancellor agree with the IMF’s most recent assessment that strong fiscal consolidation remains essential?
Mr Osborne
That is, of course, absolutely what the IMF said in its recent article IV assessment—and we remember the article IV assessments at the end of the previous Labour Government. It asks explicitly whether the UK Government should change their policy, and it says no. That is the advice of the IMF. Last July, the Labour party voted against Britain paying its subscriptions to the IMF. Frankly, I do not think that Labour Members should talk about the IMF in Treasury questions until they agree with paying the subs.
Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab)
If the Office for Budget Responsibility downgrades its forecast for growth for the fourth time when it reports later in the autumn, and revises up its forecast for Government borrowing, would the Chancellor regard that as a success or failure of this Government’s economic policy?
Mr Osborne
Of course, the Government want economic growth and prosperity. We want a stable international situation in which we can trade. We have to take account of the fact that major trading partners, such as Germany, France and the United States, have seen either no growth or very limited growth as well. That is the challenge we face. As the right hon. Member for Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling) reminded us at the weekend, we can either have a credible economic policy that takes note of what is going on in the world or, as he put it, we cannot even be at the races.
Mrs Anne McGuire (Stirling) (Lab)
7. What recent assessment he has made of the potential effects on consumer confidence of the change in the basic rate of VAT.
Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Aylesford) (Con)
T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne)
The core purpose of the Treasury is to ensure the stability of the economy, promote growth and employment, reform banking, and manage the public finances so that Britain lives within her means. I can also announce today that the Office for Budget Responsibility will publish its economic and fiscal outlook on Tuesday 29 November, and that I will make a statement to the House on that day.
Tracey Crouch
Many hauliers in my constituency, like ordinary motorists, are concerned about the high price of fuel. Sadly, one Kent haulier went into administration during the recess, blaming diesel prices as a contributing factor. Can the Chancellor assure my constituents that he is listening to concerns expressed by fair fuel campaigners, and that he will do all he can to reduce the burden of high fuel costs on the motorist?
Mr Osborne
Of course I am well aware of the pain and burden that the big rise in the international oil price has caused to British businesses and, indeed, British families. That is why we took action in the Budget with a £2 billion reduction in fuel duty.
My hon. Friend mentioned hauliers in her constituency. The average haulier will benefit by approximately £1,700 this year as a result of the measures announced in the Budget, in comparison with the last Government’s fuel duty plans. Those measures were funded by an increase in tax on North sea oil companies, which was controversial and was opposed by the Labour party.
Mr Kevin Barron (Rother Valley) (Lab)
T2. The carbon price floor taxation policy within the electricity market reform is designed to push up the cost of electricity produced from high-carbon fuels such as coal. That could close what remains of indigenous coal production in this country, and also vastly increase the costs of energy-intensive industrial users such as steelmakers. Is the Chancellor prepared to look again at that policy, or consider compensating the industries that will fall foul of it?
Mr Osborne
We are looking specifically at the impact not just of the carbon floor price but of all the other environmental policies of recent years on energy-intensive industries. I hope, in the autumn forecast at the end of November, to give the House an update of what we propose to do to help.
Mark Lancaster (Milton Keynes North) (Con)
T3. As we approach its first anniversary, is the Chancellor happy with the performance of the Office for Budget Responsibility?
Mr Osborne
Yes, I am happy with the performance of the OBR, because we have created a new institution in Britain that produces independent fiscal and economic forecasts. The absolutely astonishing revelation of the former Chancellor’s memoirs was how—[Interruption.] Let me tell Labour Members this: that book has not even been published yet, but they will be hearing a lot more about it in the months ahead, because it reveals the truth, not just about the last Government but about how the current shadow Chancellor operated in the last Government—the poisoned politics, the paralysed Government and the lack of a credible economic policy.
Vernon Coaker (Gedling) (Lab)
T5. Thousands of working-age households in my constituency and millions across the country are set to lose up to 20% of their council tax benefit from April 2013. What assessment has the Chancellor made of the impact of that policy on incentives to work?
Mr Osborne
We published our impact assessments at the time of the spending review, and, like other savings in the welfare budget, the policy the hon. Gentleman mentions is designed to deal with a welfare budget that was completely out of control. Just a few weeks ago, the Opposition said they were going to come forward with a credible medium-term deficit reduction plan. Well, where is it? Every single measure we have put forward, they have opposed.
Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
T4. The Chancellor has stated his clear commitment to planning reforms, and local authorities are coming under increasing pressure to raise more locally than they receive centrally. Obviously, future developments are very attractive to them. Where in the planning reforms does the Chancellor assure the House there will be local democracy and a local voice?
Mr Osborne
We are giving a much greater role to local communities in determining their own local plan. We are also protecting the green belt and areas of outstanding natural beauty—of which I am sure there are a number in my hon. Friend’s constituency. I would make this point: these are sensible protections for the countryside, but we must also allow economically productive development in this country. We have to simplify a planning system that is completely unintelligible to most citizens. That is precisely what we are doing and I hope we will be backed on both sides of the House.
Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)
T6. Will the Chancellor give a categorical assurance to the House that the Government will swiftly and robustly reject any proposal from the European Commission, the European Parliament or any other European institution for a trans-European revenue-raising measure?
Mr Osborne
I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that I am certainly opposed to any new European tax.
Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con)
T8. The Lowestoft and Great Yarmouth enterprise zone can play a vital role in promoting growth. Will the Chancellor accept an invitation from me and my hon. Friend the Member for Great Yarmouth (Brandon Lewis) to visit our constituencies to see for himself the area’s great potential and to hear from business and council representatives about the work being done to create new private sector jobs?
Mr Osborne
I certainly will visit Great Yarmouth and Lowestoft—and on a couple of occasions during this Parliament, I hope. I am delighted that the bid for an enterprise zone from Great Yarmouth and Lowestoft was successful. It was a very impressive bid, involving intelligent use of East Anglia’s offshore energy resources, and I look forward to seeing how work on that is progressing when I visit.
Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab)
T7. Given stagnating economic growth in the UK, US and much of Europe, and with forecasts predicting slow to no growth, will the Chancellor acknowledge that his economic plans are hurting but not working, and can he now tell us what his plan B is for driving growth in the UK?
Mr Osborne
I think that question involved a contradiction in that the hon. Lady pointed out that there was either slow or no growth in the United States and Europe and then somehow blamed my economic policies for that situation. That points to a broader observation: until the Labour party has some cognisance of what is happening in the world and how our policies are protecting the country with the largest budget deficit in the G20 from being caught in the firestorm that some other European countries have found themselves in, frankly it is not going to be at the races.
Stephen Williams (Bristol West) (LD)
Coming back to the crisis in some of the economies of the European Union, out of a crisis can sometimes come an opportunity. Will the Chancellor, next time he is meeting his fellow Finance Ministers, impress upon them the need further to deepen and reform the single market in order to promote trade and growth within the European Union?
Mr Osborne
I certainly will. I agree 100% with the point the hon. Gentleman is making, and on Friday we will be meeting as the G7, and then we have the ECOFIN meeting next week. He is absolutely right: as well as needing to tackle the fiscal policies and budget deficits, we need to make Europe more competitive. We need to make the whole of the European continent more competitive, and that involves supply-side reforms, deepening the single market and promoting free trade around the world, and I will be making that point today and in future.
Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
T9. Given the latest data on manufacturing, construction, exports and retail, can the Chancellor explain to me exactly where we will see growth and jobs coming from, especially in an area such as Hull?
Mr Osborne
I hope the hon. Lady welcomes the decision we made to make sure that Humberside had an enterprise zone. The way that this and other countries are going to get growth is not by taking yet another fix of the debt-fuelled spending bubble that got us into the mess we are in at the moment; it is by becoming competitive and having successful private sector businesses and a tax and regulatory environment that allows them to compete with not just the rest of Europe but the rest of the world.
Laura Sandys (South Thanet) (Con)
Like many of my colleagues, I want to thank the Chancellor for launching the enterprise zone and visiting—[Hon. Members: “Ah!”] Yes, in Sandwich. However, it is not just enterprise but trade and investment that need to come into the country. Does he believe that UK Trade & Investment is going to step up to the mark and ensure that we get the message across that Britain is open for business?
Mr Osborne
The short answer is yes. I was delighted to visit the new enterprise site in Sandwich with my hon. Friend, but we do need to promote exports. It is absolutely staggering that we export more to Ireland than we do to Brazil, Russia, India and China. That is the situation we inherited, and we have got to increase exports. The Chinese vice-premier will be in London on Thursday, and I hope we can fulfil our countries’ joint ambition to increase trade between the two countries.
Tristram Hunt (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab)
T10. Given that increasing urban density increases economic productivity, and that countries with lax planning law such as Ireland, Greece and Spain are among the least competitive in Europe, why on earth is the Chancellor so intent on ripping up our planning system and destroying what makes England England?
Mr Osborne
I completely reject the premise of the hon. Gentleman’s question. As I say, green belt and areas of outstanding natural beauty will be protected, but we need to allow economically productive development. I have to say that his question is particularly puzzling as he represents the city of Stoke. Stoke applied for an enterprise zone, and one of the features of such a zone was that we were going to relax the planning rules.
Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD)
When the Eurostar is in France it is in a eurozone country, but when it comes through the channel tunnel into England’s green and pleasant land, the euro is not the sovereign currency. Last week, Eurostar refused to accept British money, even on the train in this country. Will the Chancellor make a robust complaint to Eurostar? [Interruption.]
Mr Osborne
The Opposition remind me of the very good election slogan that we had—although it was not particularly successful—which was “Save the Pound”. We have managed to save the pound on the Eurostar—or rather, the company itself has anticipated questions such as the one from my hon. Friend. I am glad to hear that, as he travels to and from Brussels and Paris, he will continue to be able to buy his meals in pounds sterling.
Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)
Before the Chancellor meets the head of the IMF on Friday, will he recognise that in warning that slamming on the brakes too quickly will harm the recovery, she has a point? Does not Britain’s experience illustrate that?
Mr Osborne
The point that the IMF has made consistently over the last two years is that countries with fiscal space can of course use it, but that Britain does not have that fiscal space. It made that point in its article IV assessment of the UK just a few weeks ago, and that is also the view of Christine Lagarde. As I say, she is coming to this country on Friday and we will hear what she has to say.
Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con)
As the Chancellor has reassured the House that protecting the green belt is not incompatible with reforming the planning system, can he tell the House any more about how the Government can help to reduce the costs of the planning system for business?
Mr Osborne
Planning costs in Britain are among the highest in the world and planning delays are among the longest in the world. That is what we are seeking to deal with, so that we get economic development that is sustainable and protects our most cherished environments. That is what we are doing. What people are beginning to see, as this debate unfolds, is that we have to take some difficult decisions in this House if we are to have sustainable economic growth in a very competitive global economy. The planning reforms are part of that plan.
Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)
The massive increases in energy prices are hitting every family and business in this country. Before the general election, the Conservative party, and indeed the Prime Minister, promised to take direct action and curb excessive rises. What action does the Chancellor intend to take to cure this problem now?
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
What would happen to domestic interest and mortgage rates were Britain to lose its triple A status by relaxing its financial deficit reduction targets?
Mr Osborne
Of course the benefit of having a credible economic policy and a credible fiscal policy is having low market interest rates. Greece today has one-year bond rates of 82% and Italy’s bond spreads have gone out in recent days. We are borrowing money at 2.3%, and that is, in part, because we have a credible economic policy. If we did not have plans to deal with the largest budget deficit in the G20, we would find ourselves in a similar position to Italy or Spain.
Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance)
The Chancellor will be aware that air passenger duty has a particular impact in Northern Ireland, particularly as it places pressure on business and discourages tourism. What action does he intend to take, and when, to ensure that we can maintain our links, particularly our transatlantic ones?
Mr Osborne
I am very aware of the issue relating to the continental flight from Belfast to the eastern seaboard of the United States, and I have spoken to Northern Ireland’s First Minister and Deputy First Minister about it. I can see that there is a particular challenge because of the proximity of the airport in Dublin, and the British embassy in Washington has also been very active in dealing with the company in the United States. I can assure the hon. Lady that we are on the case.
Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD)
There is still huge public anger that taxpayers have had to bail out the very banks whose cavalier and risky behaviour led to the global economic meltdown. Further to the eloquent question from the Father of the House, the right hon. Member for Louth and Horncastle (Sir Peter Tapsell), when Vickers reports next week will the Chancellor ensure that he acts promptly to introduce any necessary legislation to implement the recommendations, in order to avoid a repeat of the financial crisis, and that he does not listen to the vested interests arguing for delay?
Mr Osborne
It was this coalition Government who established the Vickers report. Those questions were simply not asked by the previous Government—we are asking those questions. However, I am afraid that the hon. Lady will have to wait until Monday to hear the Government response to the Vickers report.
Mr Iain Wright (Hartlepool) (Lab)
Harold Macmillan, the most successful Chancellor and Prime Minister that Eton has ever produced, once said that effective Governments need to adapt to “Events, dear boy, events.” Could the Chancellor, dear boy that he is, outline to the House the events that would warrant a change in his economic policy, or is he woefully negligent, blinkered and complacent?
Mr Osborne
I think the hon. Gentleman is being rather harsh on Hugh Dalton, who I think also went to Eton.
Matthew Hancock (West Suffolk) (Con)
Do not recent revelations show that the previous Government were masters of nothing?
Mr Osborne
That is a brilliant plug for my hon. Friend’s new book. I am sure that the whole House will want to read it, because it will remind us of everything that went wrong under the previous Government.