Oral Answers to Questions

Nick Clegg Excerpts

Tuesday 16th October 2012 Commons Chamber

[Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/Co-op)]

1. What recent discussions he has had on the Act of Settlement 1700.

[The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Nick Clegg)]

As the House is aware, we have sadly lost two Members over the last few weeks. Before I reply to the hon. Gentleman’s question, let me say that both Malcolm Wicks and Sir Stuart Bell will be very sorely missed.

The right hon. Member for Croydon North was an example to all who entered the House. He always held to the highest standards of public life, and was a credit to the House of Commons. On a personal level, I—along with everyone else, I am sure—was struck by his modesty, compassion and commitment. He worked tirelessly for his constituents. Whether he was dealing with fuel poverty or pursuing legislation to support carers, Malcolm tackled it all with true dedication.

We also heard the sad news of the death of the hon. Member for Middlesbrough. While, as pro-Europeans, Sir Stuart and I agreed on the importance of Europe to the United Kingdom, I think he made it abundantly clear at every opportunity that on pretty well everything else he strongly disagreed with me. He was a strong champion of Church matters in his 13-year role as Second Church Estates Commissioner, and he clearly cared deeply about the House and its traditions, earning the respect of Members in all parts of the House.

Our thoughts and prayers go to the families and friends of both Members at this difficult time.

My officials continue to work closely with the Government of New Zealand in their co-ordination of the proposed reforms of royal succession throughout the 16 Commonwealth realms, which were announced by the Prime Minister at the time of the Perth agreement on 28 October 2011.

[Tom Greatrex]

I thank the Deputy Prime Minister for his answer, and associate myself with his comments about our two former colleagues, recently departed.

The Deputy Prime Minister referred to the work of the New Zealand Government. He will know that legislation will soon be needed to enable those changes to be made, and that it will be initiated in the House of Commons. Given his unenviable record of success in relation to constitutional change, may I suggest that he pass responsibility for the legislation to another Minister, so that there will be some chance of its actually being introduced?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

So there are to be Christmas cracker jokes from the very beginning.

No; we will pursue this. As the hon. Gentleman may know, we are already pursuing it, along with 15 other Commonwealth realms, but the process is very complex legally. Although the idea is simple—ending male primogeniture in the succession rules and allowing successors to the monarchy to marry Catholics, removing that discriminatory rule from the current arrangements—it is proving to be quite difficult and time-consuming to align all the legislative processes across all the realms, but I know that the New Zealand Government are doing all they can to expedite that.

[Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)]

Unlike the hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex), I have every confidence that my right hon. Friend will do a brilliant job in introducing these long-overdue reforms. Is it not ironic that, had the Queen had a younger brother, she would not be Queen at this moment? Is it not time to introduce the other reform to which my right hon. Friend referred briefly? At present, not only a monarch but anyone in the line of succession may not marry a Roman Catholic or, indeed, become one. That is an absurdity, and we must surely do away with it as soon as we can.

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I certainly agree that the current rules are anachronistic and explicitly discriminatory. That is the point of the reforms. It should be borne in mind that the new rules, particularly those on male primogeniture, came into effect from the moment that the declaration was made in Perth. Although some painstaking work is needed to extend the legislation to all the Commonwealth realms, it has already taken effect.

[Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab)]

2. What plans he has to bring forward legislative proposals on the recall of hon. Members.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

4. What the Government’s political and constitutional reform agenda is up to May 2015.

[The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Nick Clegg)]

The Government have already introduced fixed-term Parliaments, a significant constitutional change, and given people a say on the voting system for this House. We have established cross-party talks on party funding and work on individual electoral registration, recall and lobbying reform is ongoing. We have radical measures in train to shift power from the centre to local decision makers, whether that takes place through the reforms in the Localism Act 2011, the Local Government Finance Bill or the introduction of local enterprise partnerships and city deals. Although I imagine some people will say that withdrawal of the House of Lords Reform Bill marks the end of the Government’s constitutional reform agenda, it is clear that that is not the case.

[Sheila Gilmore]

The Deputy Prime Minister originally said that his reforms would be ranked with those of the 1832 Great Reform Act, but given that the only legislation that is either through or nearly through—fixed-term Parliaments, the reduction in the number of MPs and individual voter registration—arguably demonstrates a lessening in democratic accountability, would not a better title be the “Great Reactionary” rather than the “Great Reformer”?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

If the hon. Lady is such an ardent reformer, why did she not get her party to push for House of Lords reform? That was something her party used to believe in, but it was not prepared to will the means to meet the ends.

[Sir Roger Gale (North Thanet) (Con)]

Given the right hon. Gentleman’s European credentials, will he find the time to bring the UK into line with many European states and ensure that the perpetual right to vote for expat UK citizens is enshrined in law?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

As the hon. Gentleman knows, there is a time limit of 15 years. Various member states and other countries around the world have time limits on how long expatriates can vote in the nation they come from, whereas others do not. So far, although we keep the rules under review, we have not come to the conclusion that we will seek to change them in any significant way.

[Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)]

Given the public response to electoral reform and the right hon. Gentleman’s disappointment over Lords reform, and given that the Boundary Commission for Northern Ireland today published its revised proposals for further consultation, can he confirm the Government’s stated position on reducing the number of parliamentary seats?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

As the hon. Lady knows, yes, the boundary commissions have published their latest revisions. Equally, I have made it clear that because of a failure to deliver the wider package of reforms that we had agreed within the coalition Government, including House of Lords reform, when it comes to a vote the Liberal Democrats will not support these changes ahead of the election in 2015.

[Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)]

Can my right hon. Friend confirm the progress on individual voter registration so that we can not only get an accurate register, but combat electoral fraud?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

We are now in the latter stages of the legislation. The hon. Gentleman is right to highlight that the central purpose of individual voter registration is to bear down on fraud. That is something with which I should have thought all Members would agree. The Labour Government had plans to introduce individual voter registration, to come into effect on a slightly slower timetable than the one that we are introducing, yet for some reason the Labour party has now decided that it is against this anti-fraud measure from first principles—a very curious change of mind.

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

I note that the Government are happy for the Scottish Parliament to allow 16 and 17-year-olds to vote in the Scottish referendum, but surely to be consistent the Government should extend the franchise to all 16 and 17-year-olds throughout the United Kingdom. If the Government are prepared to do that, we on the Labour Benches will support them. Will they accept our offer?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

As the hon. Gentleman well knows, I personally am sympathetic to the principle of giving 16 and 17-year-olds the vote, but it is not something that we are going to proceed with as a Government because it is not agreed within the coalition. He should be precise about the powers that we have given to the Scottish Administration. We have given them a degree of discretion over the franchise that applies to referendums, which applies to all referendums because the franchise needs to be decided on a referendum-by-referendum basis. To that extent, the powers that we have granted to the Scottish Government are nothing exceptional to the decisions made on the franchise for each referendum, wherever that might take place.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

5. When he plans to bring forward proposals to implement the parliamentary boundary review.

[The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Nick Clegg)]

The boundary commissions are continuing with the boundary review in accordance with the legislation, which requires them to report before October next year. It will be for Parliament to consider the recommendations and vote on them in due course.

[Mr Bone]

The Conservative Members of the coalition delivered AV—[Interruption.] They delivered the opportunity for AV, and the biggest majority in this Parliament on a Second Reading was for House of Lords reform, so how can the Deputy Prime Minister then vote against the boundary review and expect to remain in the Government? Is it his view that that is a principle of the highest integrity and in the interests of democracy?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I am delighted that, if only fleetingly, the hon. Gentleman was in favour of AV and not just of the principle of holding a referendum on AV. As he knows, we are honouring the coalition agreement by leaving the boundary review legislation on the statute book. That is primary legislation from the past which Liberal Democrat Members passed, but for all the reasons that I have explained before, we are not going to introduce the changes ahead of the general election in 2015.

[Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)]

12. The Deputy Prime Minister says that the Liberal Democrats will not vote for the boundary change proposals but the chair of the Conservative party, speaking for once using his real name, says that he has still not given up hope, so who should we have confidence in—him or the chair of the Conservative party?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

Yes, I have also read press reports that the chairman of the Conservative party wishes to strike a deal with us on boundaries in return for a party funding deal. I suppose that is finally a “get rich quick” scheme which he is prepared to put his name to. Let me be clear—[Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. We want to hear the words of the Deputy Prime Minister. I want a full hearing.

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

Let me put it this way: a change of mind on my part on the issue as is likely as the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) going to Norway to accept the Nobel prize on behalf of the European Union. It is not going to happen.

[Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con)]

Why does the Deputy Prime Minister oppose the proposals by the Boundary Commission today when he was all in favour of them last September? Did anyone expect him to change his view by 180°?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I was surprised when parties and Members in this House, having fought on a manifesto commitment to reform the House of Lords, decided against simply voting in favour of a timetable motion to do so. These things happen, and I think that everybody in the country understands that a coalition Government is a deal. It is like a contract, and where one part of the contract is amended another part of the contract is amended as well, and we move on.

[Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab)]

I begin by welcoming the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, the hon. Member for Norwich North (Miss Smith) and congratulating her on her new role. We genuinely wish her well. I also welcome the fact that the Deputy Prime Minister has finally found some principle and backbone. We welcome his rigour in answering the last question raised in relation to the one asked by the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone). But bearing in mind that during the last year thousands of pounds of taxpayers’ money has been spent on a boundary review that will be futile, and that there will be uncertainty and further taxpayers’ money spent during the next 14 months, why not use his power to put a stop to it now?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

As I have explained, the legislation is on the statute book and that will not change. I have merely made clear during the last few weeks and months the position of Liberal Democrat Members when the matter comes to a vote.

[Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)]

6. What terms of reference he has given to the commission of priorities for the economy of the north-east.

[The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Nick Clegg)]

The terms of reference for a strategic, constructively critical review of the economy in the north-east have rightly been set by the north-east local enterprise partnership itself, not by Government. The partnership has commissioned a high-profile team of leaders from UK finance, industry, public and civil society to produce this review, and I believe it will be an excellent means of helping to drive growth in the north-east. I look forward, as I believe my right hon. Friend does too, to receiving the report early next year.

[Sir Alan Beith]

Is my right hon. Friend confident that this group, which has an important and valuable job to do, can take fully into account those things that matter to the economy of Northumberland, in particular the dualling of the A1 and the provision of broadband in rural areas?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

Absolutely. I can assure my right hon. Friend on that because the group, as he knows, is independently constituted and can address itself to the concerns surrounding broadband infrastructure and road transport, which I know are deeply felt and on which he has long campaigned in the north-east.

[Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

[The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Nick Clegg)]

As Deputy Prime Minister I support the Prime Minister on a full range of Government policies and initiatives, and I take special responsibility for the Government’s programme of political and constitutional reform.

[Diana Johnson]

I am interested that the Deputy Prime Minister takes full responsibility. Given the waste of £12 million on the Boundary Commission review, which, from what the right hon. Gentleman has just said, will not go anywhere, and the £100 million wasted on the west coast rail franchise, is he proud of the Government’s record in wasting taxpayers’ money?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

It seriously beggars belief that an Opposition Member, whose Government drove this country to the edge of bankruptcy, tries to make a point about value for money. The Government are repairing, rescuing and reforming the British economy because the hon. Lady’s party wasted such monumental amounts of money over 13 years.

[Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)]

T4. Will the Deputy Prime Minister join me in saluting the fact that we now have a million new jobs in the private sector, largely through entrepreneurial activity? Will he further join me in suggesting that we need a greater focus on developing a culture for entrepreneurial activity in this country, and will he consider coming to my constituency to support my festival for engineering and manufacturing, where that is being put into practice now?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I certainly agree that an entrepreneurial culture and a backing for engineering and manufacturing is crucial to the rebalancing of the woefully unbalanced economy that we inherited from the Labour party, which spent all its time on a prawn cocktail charm offensive in the City of London, letting the banks get away with blue murder. We have a manufacturing festival in Sheffield that is extremely successful and I am delighted to hear that there is one in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency as well.

[Ms Harriet Harman (Camberwell and Peckham) (Lab)]

May I associate the Opposition with the Deputy Prime Minister’s remarks about Sir Stuart Bell and Malcolm Wicks? I draw attention to Sir Stuart’s work on the House of Commons Commission, which was not often seen by Members but was very important for Members on both sides of the House. When Leader of the House, I saw at first hand the painstaking commitment and dedication with which he carried out that work over many years. We will miss that work.

I also endorse what the Deputy Prime Minister said about Malcolm Wicks. He made an extraordinary and unique contribution to British politics. I believe that he was no less than the father of British family policy. His work moved us beyond what were sometimes stale arguments for or against marriage into substantive policy discussions about balancing work, bringing up children and supporting carers. Members on both sides of the House recognise that we will miss them both greatly.

Nobody can be in any doubt about the utmost seriousness of the vile abuse perpetrated by Jimmy Savile. It has come to light that Jimmy Savile committed these crimes at the BBC and at other public institutions. Does the Deputy Prime Minister agree that we need one inquiry that looks into what happened in each of the institutions to see whether there were patterns of systemic failure and so that we get a coherent picture? Does he agree that any inquiry must be completely independent? That is the very least that Savile’s victims would expect if we are to get to the truth and learn the lessons. Will the Government now set up an independent inquiry?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I certainly accept that there might be a case for an inquiry and that, if one that is as broad as the right hon. and learned Lady suggests it should be were to be held, it should be independent and able to look at the full range of shocking revelations that have come to light. We are not ruling that out, but I think that the first priority must be to allow the police to conduct their work in relation to these deeply troubling and shocking revelations and allegations. Like her, I keep asking myself how on earth this was possible on this scale, over such a prolonged period of time and in so many different settings. In many ways it is the dark side of the cult of celebrity that might have intimidated people from speaking out earlier. Now that we know these things and they are coming to light, we should proceed in a way that is led by what the police find and keep an open mind on the issue of an inquiry.

[Ms Harman]

The police are carrying out important investigations that obviously should not be impeded, but that does not mean that an independent inquiry should not be set up now. I ask the Deputy Prime Minister to reflect on that and think again, because revelations are coming forward daily and the victims of this abuse need to hear firmly that the truth will be discovered. I can assure him that we stand ready to discuss terms of reference to ensure that we have the full and thorough inquiry that is no less than what the victims deserve.

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

The right hon. and learned Lady says, reasonably enough, that there is no reason why we cannot establish an inquiry while the police are doing their work, but I think that the practical issue is the other way around: what kind of work could an inquiry do while the police are conducting their investigations? We should not imagine that an inquiry that cannot pursue certain avenues of investigation because the police are conducting their own investigations would necessarily be the best answer for the victims at this time. Let us at least agree that we must first do everything we can to ensure that proper answers are given to the victims. I am grateful to her for her signal that she is prepared to work together on a cross-party basis as we get to the bottom of what on earth happened.

[Mr Speaker]

Tim Loughton. Not here.

[Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)]

May I ask the Deputy Prime Minister what he thinks politics in this country should be about? I remind him that he argued with some passion for more equal constituencies and fairer boundaries on their own merits. Is politics about arguing for what one believes in on a point of principle, or is it about getting what one can out of a particular situation for one’s own political advantage, in which case why should we ever believe anything he says?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I am not sure that the hon. Gentleman has yet got his head around the politics of coalition. [Interruption.] He raises these questions month in, month out. His party did not win the general election; that is fact 1. Neither did my party; that is fact 2. Fact 3 is that we need to compromise for the benefit of the country as a whole; and when we compromise we enshrine that in a coalition agreement, which is like a deal. When one party does not abide by a certain part of that deal, it is perfectly legitimate for the other party to say that it will amend the terms of that deal. That is the meaning of coalition politics.

[Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)]

T2. The Deputy Prime Minister, not for the first time, disappointed many people this week by refusing to support calls for the editor of The Sun to take the long overdue step of dropping page 3, saying that it would be illiberal to do so. Does his version of liberalism really prevent him from taking a public stand against the objectification of women? Whose interests is he most interested in protecting?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

Not for the first time, the hon. Lady has entirely twisted what I said. I said—I would be interested to know whether she agrees with this—that it would be wholly illiberal and wrong for this House to seek to compel any editor to determine the content of their newspapers. If that is the kind of authoritarian nonsense she believes in, then I am perfectly content to say that we entirely disagree.

[Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD)]

T13. In addressing concerns over the operation of the European arrest warrant, does my right hon. Friend agree with our police that we must not throw out the baby with the bathwater and that rather than scrapping the arrest warrant we should be reforming it?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I think that there is widespread agreement in all parts of the House that the European arrest warrant is not perfect in its operation. There is clearly a legitimate concern about its disproportionate application to what are essentially judicially frivolous cases, and that is why it needs reform. The disagreement is between those who argue that we should reform it while remaining a full signatory to it, which is the Government’s current position, and those who feel that we should abdicate from it altogether. The reason I am strongly opposed to the latter position is that criminals do not recognise borders. Paedophiles, murderers and terrorists need to be chased across borders. It is not about whether one is pro or anti-European or likes or loathes Brussels; it is about whether one is for or against going after nasty, wicked people. That is why I support continuing to be a full signatory to the European arrest warrant while, of course, continuing to argue for its reform.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab)]

T3. As the man with his finger on the pulse of the nation, can the Deputy Prime Minister tell the House the level of the new CIL tax—community infrastructure levy—that is currently being introduced in his own Sheffield city region?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I cannot answer that question; I will get back to the hon. Gentleman.

[James Wharton (Stockton South) (Con)]

In his answer to the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith), the Deputy Prime Minister spoke about the north-east local enterprise partnership. Will he confirm that he is aware that there is more than one LEP in the north-east, and that the Tees Valley LEP, which is doing a great job of working with businesses, the Government and the regional growth fund to deliver employment, growth and investment in the south of the region, will have a place at the table when discussing the north of the country?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I agree with the hon. Gentleman that everybody who has a stake in the future success and prosperity of the north-east economy should have a voice in the important discussions that are taking place. As he will know better than I do, one of the great strengths of One North East was that it spoke for the region as a whole. One of the strengths of LEPs is where they work most effectively together on behalf of a region as a whole.

[Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab)]

T5. Six months ago the Deputy Prime Minister described the new energy tariff agreement as a “landmark deal” for UK consumers, but now Which? has found that there are still over 230 tariffs in existence and that three out of four consumers are paying the highest possible tariff. When are the Government going to act to end this rip-off of 5 million consumers by the big six energy companies?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

As the hon. Gentleman knows, we have announced new arrangements that will compel the big six utility companies to provide information to consumers about which tariff is best for them. That has not yet come fully into effect, but it will be a huge change. He is quite right: there is still far too much confusion and too much information, with too many contradictory messages being given to households and consumers about their energy bills and the tariffs available to them. This will, I hope, make a dramatic difference, because it means that in clear, simple terms people will be informed of the cheapest tariff that suits them best.

[Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is very important that we tackle the threat to our economy and our society of climate change and that the messages given out by Ministers on both sides of the coalition are consistently and strongly pro-green, pro-green energy and pro-green manufacturing in order to give green business the confidence to invest?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

As my hon. Friend will know, the coalition agreement commits this Government—across all parties—to be the greenest Government ever. We have achieved many radical new things, such as the carbon budget, the carbon floor price, the green investment bank and the green deal, which will be the first of its kind anywhere in Europe and will be unveiled in the next few months. I say to my hon. Friend that this is not just about whether we think it is right for the environment, but about what is right for our economy. The green sector employs close to 1 million people, was growing at about 4% or 5% last year and is one of the few sectors that runs a trade surplus. That is why he is right that we should be working consistently to deliver more investment and more jobs for the people of Britain.

[Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab)]

T6. Is it not an affront to the Deputy Prime Minister’s party that the Tories are trying to buy Lib Dem support for boundary changes by offering financial enticements? Given his record on constitutional reform, does he agree that the only way to ensure that those proposals never see the light of day would be for him to give them his full backing?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

The hon. Gentleman probably writes his questions before he comes into the Chamber, but he will have heard me answer that question on three occasions over the past half an hour.

[Zac Goldsmith (Richmond Park) (Con)]

Given the problems with the reform agenda so far, and given the fact that recall represents an opportunity for some real, meaningful change that voters will notice, many people are concerned that the assurances being given at the moment are vague at best. Will the Deputy Prime Minister give us a crystal-clear timeline and will he draw inspiration, as he rewrites it, from my private Member’s Bill, the Recall of Elected Representatives Bill?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

The hon. Gentleman and I have spoken and I pay tribute to him for his dogged sincerity and commitment to a radical, California-style model of recall. We have looked at it and, as he knows—we have discussed it—we have concerns about the danger of such a model of recall becoming a kangaroo-court process. There need to be some checks and balances. We recently received the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee’s report, which makes certain observations and, indeed, strong criticisms of our approach, and we are considering our response.

[Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab)]

T7. The Deputy Prime Minister has said that he will not support the implementation of the boundary proposals. Will he clarify whether that means he will vote against them or abstain?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

Against.

[Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) (Con)]

In light of my right hon. Friend’s answer that he will vote against any boundary changes, will he confirm that he will, therefore, allow Government Ministers to vote against Government policy?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

As I have said, it is an excellent tribute to both sides of the coalition that, notwithstanding huge pressures to do otherwise, we have religiously stuck to the commitments that we made together to the British people in the coalition agreement. On this particular occasion, for reasons I will not rehearse now, one party in the coalition felt unable to deliver one very important part of the constitutional reform agenda—House of Lords reform—so, reasonably enough, the other part of the coalition has reacted accordingly on the issue of boundaries. Those are circumscribed circumstances which will not and do not prevent the coalition Government from working very effectively on a broad waterfront of other issues, the most important of which, of course, is cleaning up the economic mess left by that lot on the Opposition Benches.

[Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab)]

T8. I welcome the commission that has been set up on the north-east economy, because we need all the help we can get at the moment. Further to the question asked by the hon. Member for Stockton South (James Wharton), does the Deputy Prime Minister understand that the commission must report to both local enterprise partnerships, and was it not a mistake by the Government to split our region into two?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I do not think that it was a mistake for the Government to replace the layer of regional development agencies, many of which were disconnected from the communities, cities and towns that they sought to represent. I am sure that the hon. Lady, who is fair-minded, will accept that RDAs were too often distant from the businesses and people that they sought to represent. I know that there was a lot of backing in the north-east for One North East, and that is why it is very important that all the LEPs in the north-east continue to work together to promote a cohesive approach to economic development that represents the whole of the north-east region.

[Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)]

One concern among voters is the alleged irregularities in postal voting, which have increased over the past few years. What changes does the Deputy Prime Minister propose to ensure that our elections are free and fair?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

The main change, other than some important rule changes to the administration of the postal voting system, which the hon. Gentleman will know about, is the introduction of individual voter registration. That is the biggest single weapon that we have against the worrying instances of widespread electoral fraud in parts of the country. That is why I hope that, instead of constantly complaining about our attempts to stamp out electoral fraud, the Labour party will support them.

[Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab)]

T10. The early intervention grant is used by local authorities to fund programmes that have the potential to transform the long-term life chances of deprived children. We discovered recently that hundreds of millions of pounds of that money will be diverted to fund the provision of nursery places for two-year-olds. We cannot tackle child poverty and improve social mobility by taking money from one set of essential services to pay for another. What steps does the Deputy Prime Minister propose to take to protect this specific pot of funding?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I recognise the hon. Gentleman’s legitimate concern about an important area of Government policy, but he is just plain wrong when he says that money is being taken away from the EIG. We made it clear that some of the money under the EIG umbrella was dedicated to the two-year-olds offer. As he knows, that is a new offer of 15 hours’ pre-school support for two-year-olds from the most deprived families in this country. It is a radical and progressive step towards greater social mobility and early intervention. We have retained the total amount of money for early intervention, but allowed the EIG to be used in a more flexible way. I ask him not to be preoccupied with which pot the money is in, but to focus on the fact that we will do big progressive things with exactly the same amount of money.

[Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD)]

Specialist manufacturing is a huge growth opportunity for the economy. Surgical Innovations in my constituency is a great example of that. It is receiving £4.91 million from the regional growth fund. Will my right hon. Friend say when we can expect the next round to be announced, so that we can hear more good news stories like that?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

We will make the impending announcement on the third round of the regional growth fund in the coming days. Although there have been criticisms about the pace of the disbursement of the money under rounds 1 and 2, my hon. Friend will be delighted to know that 60% of the projects from the total envelope of £2.5 billion are up and running, creating thousands upon thousands of jobs directly and tens of thousands of jobs indirectly, and enhancing private sector as well as public sector investment in our economy.

[Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab)]

T11. Does the Deputy Prime Minister believe that abusing police officers at the gates of Downing street and calling them “f***ing plebs” would constitute serious wrongdoing for the purposes of recall? What representations has he made to the Prime Minister on this issue?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

My right hon. Friend the Chief Whip has made it clear that he acknowledges that what he did was wrong, he has apologised to the police officer in question, and the police officer has accepted his apology.

[Karl Turner]

Will he apologise?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I know a thing or two about apologies, musical and otherwise, and I think that when someone is big enough to say that they made—[Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. It is not a criminal offence to shout at the Deputy Prime Minister, but it is notably discourteous. The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull East (Karl Turner) is used to practising in the courts as a barrister. He is a senior and sober fellow, and should behave accordingly.

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

My right hon. Friend the Chief Whip has made it clear that he acknowledges that what he did was wrong, he has apologised, and the police officer in question has accepted that apology. I hope that we can move on from there.

[Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con)]

My right hon. Friend is right to say, as he has many times, that one of the great achievements of the coalition has been to come together in the national interest. Will he not, therefore, reconsider the fact that reducing the number of Members of Parliament and equalising the number of electors in each seat is clearly in the national interest?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

As I sought to explain, the legislation on the boundary reviews remains on the statute book and there is no question of our seeking to repeal it. To that extent, we are honouring the coalition agreement commitment to introduce legislation to hold boundary reviews and reduce the number of MPs in this House. However, for all the reasons that I have explained, the legislation will not be introduced in effect before the next general election.

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

T12. Earlier, the Deputy Prime Minister was asked about the economy, and he stated that he effectively had to enter into coalition to rescue the economy. Would that argument not be stronger but for the fact that none of the predictions about growth has actually happened over the past two and a half years?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

The hon. Lady may lightly dismiss the fact that the Government have created 1 million new jobs in the private sector. She may lightly dismiss the fact that we have some of the lowest interest rates in the developed world, saving ordinary households thousands and thousands of pounds. She may lightly dismiss the fact that the bond markets are not on our necks as they are in so many other over-indebted countries. Those are huge achievements which were not made any easier by the Labour party’s lamentable economic record in government.

The Attorney-General was asked—

First Minister of Wales (Functions as Privy Counsellor)

Nick Clegg Excerpts

Monday 15th October 2012 Written Statements

[The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Nick Clegg)]

In a number of situations advice is by convention given by a Minister of the Crown to Her Majesty in respect of the exercise of her functions.

The majority of Her Majesty’s functions in respect of which she receives advice from a Minister of the Crown relate to the making of appointments and the use of the royal prerogative. Her Majesty receives advice from the Secretary of State for Wales in respect of the exercise of her functions in relation to Wales. By convention, the Secretary of State for Wales has taken the advice of the Welsh Ministers in areas which are devolved in Wales before advising Her Majesty.

Following a formal request from the First Minister of Wales, the Secretary of State for Wales and I (as Lord President of the Council) have agreed that the First Minister of Wales will henceforth advise Her Majesty in respect of the exercise of her functions which are within devolved areas of competence.

These are:

The appointment of the chief inspector and inspectors of education and training in Wales under section 19 of the Education Act 2005;

Functions in relation to further and higher education in Wales under the Education Reform Act 1988; and

The appointment of fire inspectors in Wales under section 28 of the Fire and Rescue Services Act 2004

The First Minister of Wales will advise Her Majesty so long as the office holder is a member of the Privy Council. The Secretary of State for Wales will continue to advise Her Majesty in respect of her other functions in relation to Wales.

No formal order is required to give effect to the new arrangements. However, an amendment to section 19(6) of the Education Act 2005 will be required to allow the First Minister to advise Her Majesty on the appointment of the chief inspector and inspectors of education and training in Wales. The UK Government will work with the Welsh Government to effect this change.

House of Lords Reform Bill

Nick Clegg Excerpts

Monday 3rd September 2012 Commons Chamber

[The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Nick Clegg)]

With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a statement on House of Lords reform—or what is left of it. [Interruption.] Members will be aware that the Government have decided not to proceed with the House of Lords Reform Bill during this Parliament, and I can confirm that the Government have today withdrawn that Bill. [Hon. Members: “Hooray!”] I am not as happy about that as Members sitting behind me. I set out these intentions during the parliamentary recess, in the light of widespread media speculation over the reforms. At that time, I committed to making a statement to Parliament at the earliest possible opportunity, which I am doing today.

The House will be familiar with the sequencing of events, but let me give a brief recap. [Interruption.] No, I will not start as far back as 1911. Lords reform was in the coalition agreement, reflecting separate commitments in each of the main parties’ manifestos and based on the simple principle that those who make the laws of the land should be elected by those who have to obey the laws of the land. In May 2011, the Prime Minister and I committed to holding the first of those elections in 2015. The Government’s proposals have drawn heavily on previous attempts at reform led by hon. Members from all parties in this House: the White Paper in 2008 from the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw), whom I am delighted to see here; the late Robin Cook’s “Breaking the Deadlock”; the House of Lords Act 1999; Lord Wakeham’s royal commission; and everything that went before.

Despite that long bloodline, it was always clear that delivering Lords reforms would require a degree of cross-party support, which the Government have sought for the past two and a half years. Soon after the election, we convened cross-party talks—I believe we had seven meetings. We then published a White Paper and a draft Bill, which were scrutinised by a Joint Committee of both Houses. When the Committee reported, the Government accepted the majority of its recommendations. I thank its members again for that work and I am only sorry that their contribution will not be brought to fruition, at least not during this Parliament. The Joint Committee endorsed a mainly rather than wholly elected Chamber—that was not my preference, but for the sake of progress, it was something we accepted. It also recommended that we increase the size of the reformed House from the proposed 300 Members to 450—again, we conceded on that. In order to alleviate fears over the primacy of the Commons, the Government also agreed to put the Parliament Acts on the face of the Bill. In response to continued concerns over the relationship between the Commons and the Lords, and at the request of coalition colleagues, we also amended the draft Bill so that elections to the Lords would happen on the basis of a semi-open list system, based on larger regions, instead of the single transferable vote.

So, shaping our proposals was a painstaking process, in which the Government courted compromise at every turn, and in July of this year this House voted—overwhelmingly—in favour of the Bill on Second Reading, with 462 in favour and 124 against. However, in spite of all that, it is now clear that we will not be able to secure the Commons majority needed to pass the programme motion that accompanies the Bill. Without that motion, the Bill effectively becomes impossible to deliver, because it cannot be kept on track; the Bill’s opponents will be able to block reform by unreasonably dragging out parliamentary debates. That is a situation I clearly cannot allow, not least with Parliament facing so many other pressing issues, particularly in terms of jobs and growth.

So, regrettably, the coalition will not be able to deliver Lords reform during this Parliament. The hard work of many Members of this House, and the other place, to shape this Bill has, I believe, inched us forward, and my hope is that we will return to this matter in the next Parliament, emboldened by the historic Second Reading vote. For now, the immediate decision for the Government is how we fill the gap in the legislative timetable. We will bring forward measures to promote growth—the Government’s priority and my priority—and the Prime Minister and I will shortly be announcing details of that package.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I thank the right hon. and learned Lady for her questions and I am sorry to hear that she has an early autumn sore throat to battle with. She gets 10 out of 10 for spectacular insincerity, nevertheless. The Labour party used to campaign against privilege and patronage. The Labour party used to say that it was the party of the people. The Labour party used to believe that the second Chamber should be abolished altogether. Yet when push came to shove, what did it do? It—[Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. Mr Lucas, I thought you were auditioning to be a statesman but I am starting to have second thoughts. Calm yourself, man. We have only just come back and there are many long evenings ahead. I want to hear the Deputy Prime Minister.

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

Of course the Labour party does not like to be reminded that it has been converted from a party of the people to a party of the peerage. What did Labour Members do when they had the opportunity? They voted for the idea of reform but not for the means to deliver it. They delivered lofty speeches about the need to give the people a say about how to elect the legislators in the other place, but they would not even tell us how many days they wanted in the timetable motion to make that lofty rhetoric a reality.

I think the history books will judge the Labour party very unkindly indeed. When they had the opportunity to translate the great work of Robin Cook and of the right hon. Member for Blackburn into reality and finally had it within their grasp to be the friends of reform, they turned into miserable little party point-scoring politicians instead.

[Sir Malcolm Rifkind (Kensington) (Con)]

The Deputy Prime Minister will be aware that his noble Friend Lord Steel has introduced an alternative reform of the House of Lords measure that commands wide support in the other House as well as in this House. As the right hon. Gentleman will be aware, that measure would remove the hereditary peers, impose a retirement requirement, thereby bringing down the size of the other House, and ensure that those who have been convicted of offences cannot continue to sit in that legislature. Will he give some indication of whether the Government would support that proposal? Otherwise, he will throw away an important and serious opportunity to modernise the upper House. It might not be what he would ideally wish, but it is all he is likely to get.

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I would like to correct the right hon. and learned Gentleman on one point: the Steel Bill would not remove hereditary peers. It would do three things, to be precise. It would extend the, in effect, voluntary retirement scheme that is in place in the other place, which I think has led to the spectacular result of two of its Members choosing to do that. Having seen the coverage of the views of some Members of the other place who are from my party, I can think of one or two whom I hope would take early retirement, but there would not be a mass cull in the way that the right hon. and learned Gentleman implies.

Another provision relates to crooks, but let us remember that that means future, not existing, crooks, who would—hey presto!—not be allowed to sit in the other Chamber. Also, any peer who did not attend once, not even for a few minutes to sign on for their £300 tax-free daily allowance, would be disallowed. I am afraid that any scrutiny of that Bill shows that it would barely trim at the margins the size of the House of Lords, so by its own reckoning it would not do what it purports it would do, which is dramatically to reduce the size of the House of Lords. While I have a great deal of respect for the considerable time and effort that Lord Steel has put into this, my view remains that there is no surrogate for democracy.

[Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab)]

Does the Deputy Prime Minister not recognise that his relying on timetabling problems will be seen as a tawdry excuse for a lamentable failure of political will? To my certain knowledge, because I handled such Bills, plenty of controversial constitutional Bills, not least in the first Labour Administration, were not subject to timetabling at all. Such Bills can be got through the House, as this Bill could have been, either by informal agreement or, if necessary, by subsequent guillotining. If he had any courage, that is what he should have done with this measure.

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

Not only did I have the courage, but I had the courtesy to speak to the leader of the right hon. Gentleman’s party and ask a simple question: if there were objections from the official Opposition to a timetable motion, or even the concept of a timetable motion, how many days would they want? We were prepared to offer more days.

As the right hon. Member for Blackburn knows, under the Labour Government, time and again Bills of constitutional importance were timetabled, and for good reasons. Members in all parts of the House rightly said that at a time of severe economic distress they wanted us to get on with the House of Lords Bill, but for the Bill not to consume all available parliamentary time. What answer did I get, both publicly and privately? That the Labour party wanted individual closure motions.

I am not as much of an old hand in parliamentary procedure as is the right hon. Gentleman, but he knows just as well as I do that that would have led us into a morass and the thing would have been dragged out for months. That once again showed the skin-deep sincerity of the Labour party’s commitment to reform, and it is a great betrayal of his great work in the previous Administration that his party is becoming a regressive roadblock to political reform.

[Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)]

My right hon. Friend should comfort himself: he gave it his best shot, with all his sincerity, and we respect him for that. May I draw his attention to the fact that the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Act 2011 remains in force? Therefore, the boundary commissions remain under a duty to make proposals on a House of 600 Members. Does he have the power to instruct them to stop? No, he does not. Is he therefore not simply going to obstruct a constitutional process for his own party political advantage, which is a disgrace?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

The hon. Gentleman seems to be delivering answers to his own questions, so I might be redundant in this, but he is correct that, unlike on House of Lords reform, where we had a commitment to deliver legislation, and indeed elections, come 2015, in the coalition agreement we are sticking to retaining legislation on boundaries, for which, by the way, as I know he is meticulous about such things, there was no timetable stipulated in the agreement. On boundaries, we are, I suppose, strictly speaking, adhering to the coalition agreement, unlike on Lords reform—[Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman wants a detailed answer and I am giving it to him. There is little else going on this first afternoon back at Parliament.

The hon. Gentleman is right to say that, because the primary legislation is still on the statute book, there is nothing in my power to stop the work of the boundary commissions, but I have made it clear that, since I think I reasonably believe that the constitutional reform package was exactly that—a package—and since this is the first time that either of the coalition parties has been unable to deliver on a major coalition agreement commitment, it is therefore right to rebalance things and not to proceed with an unbalanced package.

[Mr David Blunkett (Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough) (Lab)]

Substantial reform of the House of Lords, way beyond that proposed in the Steel Bill, could have been possible with 100% agreement across the House, had the Deputy Prime Minister chosen to take that route. I ask him this simple question: as the boundary changes have been linked to dropping the House of Lords Reform Bill, will Ministers under Liberal Democrat auspices—his Ministers—be asked to abstain or vote against boundary changes?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I have made it very clear that all Liberal Democrats, whether Front Bench or Back Bench, will vote against the changes coming into effect before 2015. On the right hon. Gentleman’s first point, I wonder whether he could advise the House on what more the Government could have done to seek to understand what a cross-party approach would be. We convened cross-party discussions on seven occasions when the coalition Government were first formed. We published a White Paper and a draft Bill. We convened a Joint Committee, allowed it to continue its work for months and months, and adopted the vast majority of its recommendations. We chopped and changed our legislative text, taking on board suggestions from Opposition and Government Members. For the right hon. Gentleman to say that that was a capricious exercise unilaterally conducted by the Government ignores the painstaking work put in by the Minister with responsibility for political and constitutional reform, my hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper), me and many others to try to generate proper cross-party support for this now long overdue measure.

[Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)]

Now that Labour’s refusal to co-operate on a timetable has ensured that we will see a steady increase in the number of unelected legislators, may I assure my right hon. Friend that he was very wise not to invite my hon. Friends and me to support a reduction in the number of elected legislators?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

As my right hon. Friend suggests, of course there is an argument that says that if one reduces the size of one Chamber—the House of Commons—but does not make the other more legitimate, all one ends up doing is strengthening the hand of an already over-mighty Executive. That argument has some force, but I have never hidden the fact that the reason why I believe that the boundary changes should not—and, indeed, will not—go ahead in 2015 is that the overall package of constitutional and political reform measures would otherwise be unacceptably unbalanced within the coalition Government.

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

Nearly all the Deputy Prime Minister’s party colleagues in the Lords oppose the measure; there is no doubt about their very strong opposition. Will he respond to the view that in time—in the next few months, or perhaps next year—the Prime Minister will persuade him to vote for the boundary changes? Is that a possibility?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

This statement is about the Lords, but the answer to the hon. Gentleman’s question on boundary changes is simple. I have said very clearly what we will do: we will vote against the boundary changes coming into effect in 2015. The legislation will continue, after 2015, as it is on the statute book, unless it is changed. I have been very clear about that, and nothing will change my mind.

As for House of Lords reform, it has not happened this time; if it was easy, it would have happened at some point over the past 100 years. I say this to Labour Members, who seem to be enjoying their time in opposition, in which they are taking responsibility for absolutely nothing and delivering on none of their commitments to political reform: one day, one generation of politicians will finally have to introduce a smidgen of democracy in the second Chamber. We in this country and this Parliament cannot continue trotting around the world lecturing other countries on the virtues of democracy while not introducing it in Westminster.

[Mrs Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con)]

The right hon. Gentleman is right: it is a great pity that we have not made progress in modernising our system. It could have been done, as the right hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett) has just said. The Deputy Prime Minister has confirmed that on 6 August, he said that, the House of Lords Reform Bill having been withdrawn, his party would no longer support the boundaries legislation. Does he recall that on 19 April, in answer to my questions, he told the Select Committee on Political and Constitutional Reform that there was “no link” between the two issues? Does he accept that he cannot have been telling the truth on both occasions?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

Since we are trading quotes, I remind the hon. Lady that she—[Interruption.] I will answer the question. She said on her website that we should not be wasting our time on constitutional reform—of almost any description, I think—that is not going to improve the life of a single person in the United Kingdom. I have the transcript of the meeting of the Select Committee in April this year. As she knows, I also said in my exchange with her that we were

“trying to press forward”

on all the issues in our constitutional and political reform package, and that

“I think we are successfully doing so—in keeping with the commitments we both made, both coalition parties, in the Coalition Agreement.”

I made it clear, therefore, that this was an overall approach to a package of measures which we had both entered into solemnly in the coalition agreement. Most people in the country would think it perfectly reasonable that when one party to such an agreement decides to pick and choose the measures that it will support, it is right for the other party to say, “Well, in that case we will need to pick and choose a bit ourselves so that we can continue with the rest of the very important work that this coalition Government are doing.”

[Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab)]

Why does the right hon. Gentleman not just admit that it is obvious from their response today that his new friends in the Tory party have never been serious about Lords reform, and that on this, as on the alternative vote referendum, he has been badly let down by his friend the Prime Minister? Why did he not offer a referendum, which may have eased the passage of the Bill through both Houses?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I did suggest, in the latter stages of the discussions within the Government, that we should hold a referendum on election day in return for delaying both the first elections to the House of Lords to 2020 and the first boundary changes coming into effect in 2020, but that was not a position that found favour with my coalition partners on this occasion. The hon. Gentleman points a finger at Conservative Members about their commitment to political and constitutional reform, yet Labour has in many respects been a whole lot more cynical and insincere, claiming that Labour Members are fervent supporters of House of Lords reform and, as I explained earlier, refusing to will the means and talking only about the ends.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

Why does the Deputy Prime Minister not believe that those who make the laws should be elected by constituencies of approximately equal numbers of electors? By the time of the next general election, my constituency will be approximately 90,000 electors. I love them all dearly and I am very proud to represent them all, but what possible justification can there be for a number of constituencies in this House to have 90,000 or more electors, and a number of Members of this House to represent 60,000 or fewer constituents? How is that fair? It is just as much gerrymandering as happened before the Great Reform Bill.

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

The hon. Gentleman’s public profession of love for all his 90,000 constituents must explain why he is such a well respected Member of this House and such a popular constituency Member. My answer is simple. I was and remain entirely supportive of the idea that we reform the House of Lords and also introduce boundary changes to this House. That is what was in the coalition agreement and that is what I was prepared to deliver and remain prepared to deliver. What I am not prepared to do, because I do not think coalition government can work like that, is to enter into a sort of arbitrary pick-and-choose process where one party baulks at something and the other party must none the less vote for things which are not very appetising or popular with that party. That is simply no way to run a coalition. On the substance, the hon. Gentleman is right. I remain still to this day prepared to support and vote for both, but in a coalition Government I am not prepared to allow things to collapse into a pick-and-mix approach.

[Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab)]

Well, every cloud has a silver lining. The House of Lords survives, and when the Liberal Democrats dump the right hon. Gentleman as their leader, he will qualify for a peerage. Will he take it?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I knew the question was going to be a nice one. No, I will not. [Interruption.] Let me explain. First, I do not think I would be very welcome in the current House of Lords, given my somewhat undiplomatic descriptions of the illegitimacy of that House. Secondly, I personally will not take up a place in an unreformed House of Lords. Call me old-fashioned—it just sticks in the throat. I have campaigned all my life, and my party has campaigned for decades now, for the simple idea of democracy, and that is what I will continue to do.

[Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con)]

As one of the Government Members who favour an elected upper House, may I express my regret at the Government’s decision? The Deputy Prime Minister spoke of inching forward. Although we will obviously now have to wait until a future Parliament for legislation, I urge him to consider some means of inching forward by way of discussions and so on in this Parliament.

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

To be frank, I do not want to hold out to my hon. Friend and other reformers a great deal of hope that we will make progress, even by inches, during the remainder of this Parliament. We have taken the process a considerable distance and I do not think that those of us who are clearly disappointed that we were unable to cross the finishing line during this Parliament—I have always been very grateful for his support for the idea of democratic reform of the other place—should ignore the importance of a very significant majority on Second Reading in favour of a Bill that set out specific provisions for reforming the other place. It was just because of a reluctance to translate that blueprint into something that was legislatively workable that we cannot proceed. I do not think that I or the Government would have been forgiven, whatever one’s views on this, if we had decided, as the right hon. Member for Blackburn has suggested, to soldier on valiantly for months and months, getting into the trenches on this, when there are so many other things to be getting on with. The Prime Minister and I will make some announcements shortly on how we will use the opportunity of an unexpected gap in the legislative timetable to push forward measures that will help to create growth and jobs in our economy.

[Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab)]

It would normally be the Deputy Prime Minister’s job to bring forward the revised boundary changes to this House. If he is not going to do it, who is?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

As I have explained, the primary legislation is as it is, and no one is proposing that we repeal it. My own view—I have made this perfectly public—is that it would be better not to complete the outstanding stages of the Boundary Commission investigations because the end result is now a foregone conclusion, but if that is what is felt necessary then a vote will be held and the boundary changes will not go through before 2015.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)]

May I commend the Deputy Prime Minister on his remarkable statesmanship with regard to the boundary changes? He will be pleased to know that the commission was proposing a North East Somerset that would have been a safe Lib Dem seat, so I am in with a sporting chance of being back after the next election. However, now that he has said that Lib Dem Ministers will vote against Government policy, I wonder what his definition of collective responsibility is within a coalition Government.

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

The hon. Gentleman’s description of the psephological effects in his neck of the woods is the closest anyone has come to possibly changing my mind on the boundary issue, but I will not, and I have made our position very clear. There are conventions, and in time-honoured fashion they mutate and develop over time. Coalition government is clearly a novel thing, and I think that the conventions that govern government will need to adapt to the fact that in this instance the coalition parties will go their separate ways, and I am sure that we will be able to manage that.

[Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab)]

The Deputy Prime Minister has just said, in response to my right hon. Friend the Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw), that he could not persuade the Prime Minister to have a referendum on the package. Will he share with Members the reasons the Prime Minister gave?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

No, I will not go into the conversation, but it was clearly felt that the approach of having a referendum on election day with a deferral for both the first elections to a reformed House of Lords and the entry into effect of the boundary changes was not sufficient to persuade those who had made it clear that they would not under pretty much any circumstances back a timetable motion for House of Lords reform legislation.

[Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD)]

Is it not a fair summary of the position to say that the Bill has to be withdrawn because, although both coalition parties clearly signed up to delivering it, at the end of July there was an unholy alliance between Conservatives opposed to an elected second Chamber and the Labour party, which says that it is in favour, but absolutely refused to deliver the meat? Is that not the reason? There was therefore no other option in this Parliament. But we will come back to the issue—and in the end, the progressives will win.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

That was a fair description of the politics inside the Chamber, but my right hon. Friend’s last point is more important. If anyone really thinks that we can duck these issues for ever—that the House of Lords can carry on growing in size or that, in the 21st century, it is comprehensible to the British people that Members in the other place should be able to craft the laws of the land, getting £300 tax-free every day just for turning up—they should think again.

[Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op)]

The Deputy Prime Minister will know that the Boundary Commission for England is due to publish revised proposals in the middle of October. What is the point of that and how much will it cost?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I have answered that question several times.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

The Deputy Prime Minister should be congratulated on his total honesty for saying that a pick-and-mix coalition is a waste of time. As we now have a pick-and-mix coalition, when will he and his colleagues cross to the Opposition Benches?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

It is always reassuring to get the hon. Gentleman’s traditional welcome at the beginning of the parliamentary term. I thank him for his supportive remarks about all that my colleagues and I are doing in government to rescue, reform and repair the British economy, which was left in such a state of disrepair by the Labour party.

We are two and a half years into a five-year Government. The Prime Minister and I will make some announcements shortly—for instance, on the all-important issue of increasing the number of homes built in this country, to improve provision of affordable and social housing for people who desperately want to get on the housing ladder. If the hon. Gentleman does not mind, that is the kind of work that I am going to concentrate on.

[Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op)]

What estimate has the Deputy Prime Minister made of the cost to our civil service in time and effort of drawing up his now defunct House of Lords Reform Bill?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

As the hon. Lady knows, a lot of ink, paper and official time has been consumed, not just by this Parliament and Government but by previous Governments and Ministers who have sought finally to crack the conundrum of how we introduce more democracy to the House of Lords. The hon. Lady is right: if she and her colleagues had decided to back us on the timetable motion, all that ink and paper would not have gone to waste.

[Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con)]

What message does the Deputy Prime Minister think it sends to the public when he votes in favour in principle of boundary changes but then, when he does not get what he wants, he throws his toys out of the pram and rejects the whole thing?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

With the greatest respect to the hon. Lady, I feel slightly as though we are looking at the matter from opposite ends of the telescope. The problem has arisen because of the refusal of her colleagues and others to will the means to deliver something to which she is committed, under not only the coalition agreement but successive Conservative manifestos. I have been looking at the long pedigree of commitments in favour of an elected element in the House of Lords in Conservative party manifestos going back to 2001. Interestingly, the 2005 Conservative manifesto states that

“proper reform of the House of Lords has been repeatedly promised but never delivered.”

That sounds more like a prediction than anything else.

[Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)]

This latest episode of omnishambles shows the public that Westminster is unreformable. Twentieth-century democracy has patently failed. Does the Deputy Prime Minister understand that this is yet another example of why, in the 21st century, Scotland would be better off making all its own decisions with independence rather than continuing under the cronyism in the House of Lords?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I agree with the hon. Gentleman that one of the virtues of a reformed House of Lords would have been a voice in the second Chamber for the Scottish people as well as for the English and Welsh people and for all the nations and regions of the United Kingdom; we have spoken about that before. At the moment, that second Chamber has a very high preponderance of people from the south-east of England. There is chronic under-representation, not only from Scotland but from Wales and the north of England. That would all have been balanced by reform. I do not think that that point argues in favour of ripping up the United Kingdom altogether, but it does argue in favour of pushing for reform once again in the future.

[Mr Richard Shepherd (Aldridge-Brownhills) (Con)]

The Deputy Prime Minister refers to his proposals as a simple matter of democracy. I wonder how he reconciles that with the greater principle of how it can be democratic to have a once-elected person who is never held accountable by an electorate.

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

We had extensive debates, in which the hon. Gentleman participated, when the Government set out our ideas in the draft Bill about the concept of a non-renewable term. I totally accept that there is an issue about legitimacy versus accountability. A non-renewable term improves legitimacy, but not standing for election again raises question marks about accountability. I would say two things. First, a 15-year term is better than an illegitimate life membership of the House of Lords. Secondly, we did not draw on something that this Government have suddenly invented; we drew on the work of countless cross-party committees in the past—the Cunningham work, the Wakeham work, and so on. Those all came up with the same conclusion—that if we were going to create a clear distinction between this House and a reformed upper House, and to make it absolutely clear that the legitimacy and accountability of this place was supreme, then the best way of doing that was, yes, to introduce democracy, but to do so on the basis of long, non-renewable terms.

[Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab)]

I have some sympathy for the Deputy Prime Minister, because in our parliamentary history there are constitutional moments, but this is not one of them. I do believe, though, that the Liberal Democrats will be able to get House of Lords reform through when they go into the Lobby with the majority Labour Government after the next election. In the meantime, is it really a good use of public money—taxpayers’ money—to keep this extraordinary boundary change operation going? He has a duty of care to the taxpayer. He should finish it now.

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I find it almost touching that the right hon. Gentleman thinks that his party has any credibility whatsoever left on political reform. Labour did not introduce democracy in the House of Lords during 13 years. An opportunity was delivered to the Labour party on a silver platter—[Interruption.] I am perfectly calm, but I am seeking to make myself heard, because I am not sure whether the right hon. Gentleman is listening. Given that the Labour party did not reform the bastion of privilege and patronage at the other end of the corridor—that it did nothing in 13 years to introduce democracy into the House of Lords—why on earth does he think that anyone believes that it will do so in the future?

[Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con)]

I find the Deputy Prime Minister’s apologia at best confusing and possibly disingenuous in that he will know that the coalition agreement did not specifically call for primary legislation on House of Lords reform but for a settled cross-party consensus to be reached. We tried to do that and could not, but that consensus could have been formed around the Bill put forward by Lord Steel of Aikwood. On that basis, why has the Deputy Prime Minister chosen to resile from a solemn agreement to support fair and democratic boundaries?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

As far as I can remember, I have not sought to make any apology over the past 45 minutes. I feel that the Government have acted in good faith to try to generate cross-party support for a reasonable set of proposals drawing on a lot of work from other members of other parties over several years. It is a great pity that the hon. Gentleman and other colleagues felt that it was not possible to get behind that reasonable package of proposals with a timetable motion. The coalition agreement said that this Government were going to come forward with proposals to reform the House of Lords. We are not a think-tank. The Government do not talk about proposals just to float them idly in a newspaper article and then do nothing about them. If one is going to propose something as a Government, one proposes it with a view to actually doing something.

[Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab)]

The Deputy Prime Minister has been ducking and diving on the question of the Boundary Commission review. Is he aware that the Boundary Commission has today written to all Members of Parliament saying that it proposes to publish its revised proposals on 16 October? That will involve a huge amount of expense. Why does he not shut this exercise down and save a shed-load of money?

--- Later in debate ---

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

Because, as I have explained, the primary legislation remains in place, and—this is not rocket science—there is clearly no agreement between the Conservative and Liberal Democrat parties in the coalition Government to repeal that primary legislation, so it stands. I happen to agree with the right hon. Gentleman that, given that the result of the final vote is a foregone conclusion, we might as well not push the issue to a vote; but, perfectly understandably, other members of the Government want to do so. I have made it crystal clear what my position and that of my Liberal Democrat colleagues will be when that vote occurs.

[Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD)]

I commend my right hon. Friend for his robust stance on the boundary changes. I was delighted by that and remind him that a not inconsiderable number of Conservative Members were also delighted by his announcement. In light of his dignified and statesman-like statement accepting that House of Lords reform will not happen, is it not time for the Prime Minister to follow suit and make a similarly dignified statement to say that he accepts that the boundary changes will not happen, because they will not?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I am at risk of carbon-copying my previous answers. The legislation on boundary reviews stands, so the process continues. It is not in my power to stop that without reversing the primary legislation altogether. When and if the matter comes to a vote, I have made it clear what the voting intentions of the Members of my party within the coalition Government will be.

[Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Lab)]

It is clear that the Deputy Prime Minister has linked everything about House of Lords reform to the Boundary Commission’s proposed changes. Every MP has received today a letter dated 3 September about the proposed changes coming in for consultation on 15 or 16 October. Does that not bring Parliament into disrepute? He has said that there is a gap in the legislative programme and that we will hear further announcements. Why cannot he and his Conservative colleagues introduce a Bill to get rid of the proposed parliamentary boundary changes?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

Because, self-evidently, as I have answered previously, there is no agreement within Government to repeal that primary legislation. The hon. Lady can wave as many letters as she likes at me, and I am terribly sorry that she is upset about what appeared in her mailbag this morning, but that is the situation. I have been entirely open about it and I agree with her that what will happen at the end of the process is pretty much a foregone conclusion, because of what I have said about how Liberal Democrat Ministers and MPs will vote when the time comes.

[Craig Whittaker (Calder Valley) (Con)]

Following the recent vote on House of Lords reform, one Conservative member of the Government resigned and another was sacked for voting against the Government. In light of the fact that the right hon. Gentleman has instructed his party to vote against the boundary review, will he also instruct members from his party to resign from the Government?

--- Later in debate ---

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I remind the hon. Gentleman that the timetable motion for the House of Lords Reform Bill was not even been put to a vote, so Conservative MPs, whether they be Front Benchers or Back Benchers, were not asked to choose which Lobby they would go through. If we really want to draw a parallel, I have some sympathy with the argument that says let us draw stumps and not vote on either the timetable motion for the House of Lords Reform Bill or on the result of the Boundary Commission’s work.

[Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

The Deputy Prime Minister has failed to change the voting system and failed to change the House of Lords. Will he tell the House what constitutional change he is turning his eye to in the remaining half of this Parliament?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

As the hon. Lady knows, there are issues to do with the recall of MPs who are guilty of wrongdoing; there are ongoing cross-party talks on party funding; and we are committed to taking measures to tighten up lobbying activity and make it more transparent. Those are all important issues and I hope that she will not lightly dismiss the progress that we will seek to make on them. There is also a bigger quasi-constitutional issue, namely: how do we, as we rebuild our shattered economy—which, in my view, suffered from excessive over-centralisation in the way in which economic decisions were taken in the past—also breathe life into local communities and local authorities so that they can play a role in rebuilding and rebalancing our over-centralised British economy?

[David Tredinnick (Bosworth) (Con)]

Surely it would be better for my right hon. Friend’s reputation if he accepted the Steel Bill, which has widespread support in the Lords, and maybe made some modest amendments to it.

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

As I sought to explain earlier, the Steel Bill would do three things. It would stop future crooks from sitting in the House of Lords; it would stop people who had never turned up to the House of Lords from sitting, but pretty well all of them turn up at one point or another; and it would offer voluntary retirement, which so far has not been taken up by more than two or three peers. If we look at the detail rather than declare that the Bill is a great alternative to an elected House of Lords, we see that it does not really stand up to scrutiny. It would not make much of a difference. Call me old-fashioned, but my view is that if we are going to reform the House of Lords, we should do it properly once and for all and ensure that it has democracy at its heart.

[Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op)]

Is the Deputy Prime Minister satisfied that the Prime Minister did everything he could to support the Bill? If so, why does he believe the Conservative party rebellion was so large?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

Of course I am satisfied that the Prime Minister did all he could. This happens in politics, but thankfully our political parties are not North Korean political parties that jump when their leaders say jump. I should know that as well as anybody after this weekend’s press coverage.

This debate divides opinion and provokes strong reactions in people. In this instance, as the Prime Minister has said, he sought to persuade Members of his own party, but the commitment that he and I made to having the first elections take place in 2015 proved not to be possible. What we have done is perfectly sensible, and it happens from time to time in politics. We have drawn a line under that issue and the boundaries issue, and we will move on with the many important matters, particularly economic ones, that we must now tackle.

[Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con)]

The Deputy Prime Minister talks about the shortcomings of the Steel Bill, but he also speaks passionately about the unwieldy number of Lords, about patronage and about all the other things that we can get on and reform now. I implore him to produce a short Bill to get on with those reforms, building on Lord Steel’s Bill. Or is he just an all-or-nothing man?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

As I have said, I suspect that if the situation was quite as straightforward as the hon. Gentleman feels, reformers in the past and over the past couple of years would have reached the eureka moment. As I explained, the Steel Bill would make only a tiny difference to the size of the House of Lords. As the debates over the past several months have proved, anything more substantial appears to be too controversial right now. That is why we have rightly said that the Government are now going to focus on the things that people want us to focus on, as I believe he has urged me to do in the past. We want to ensure that we create circumstances in which growth and an increase in jobs take root in our economy.

[Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab)]

The Library has confirmed to me this afternoon that this wretched boundary review will lead to the wasting of £11.9 million of taxpayers’ money. Why has the Deputy Prime Minister been so hasty in rejecting the Opposition’s offer to support a Bill repealing the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Act 2011 and ending this farcical process once and for all?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I have heard promises from the Opposition before about support for constitutional and political reform, and look where that got me.

I have set out the position clearly. The Act remains on the statute book, and it will not be repealed because there is no coalition Government agreement to do so. I have been clear about how I and my Liberal Democrat colleagues will vote when and if a vote is brought to the Floor of the House.

[Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)]

We have heard that the Deputy Prime Minister has gone on the record first as stating that boundary changes and Lords reform were not linked, and then as changing his mind and saying that they were. If the electorate had delivered a yes vote in the alternative vote referendum instead of a resounding and unequivocal no, would boundary changes and Lords reform be linked today?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

The whole agenda of political and constitutional reform had a number of principal components as set out in the coalition agreement. Frankly, the way in which some of those measures were legislatively arranged is not really the point. The point is that it was clear that it was a broad agenda whose main components would be pursued by both parties in the coalition. For reasons that I will not rehearse again, that has proved not to be possible, so we have made an adjustment to that package. We will proceed with its other elements, and I hope we will have some success on party funding and make progress on recall and on regulating lobbying. Much more importantly, we will now have legislative time available to make progress on the economy, too.

[Ann Coffey (Stockport) (Lab)]

A powerful argument in favour of House of Lords reform was that, if the current level of patronage continues, the membership of the unelected Chamber will be more than 1,000 by 2015. I hear what the Deputy Prime Minister says about the limitations of the Steel Bill, but does he not think that there is some merit in bringing forward a proposal to cap the membership of the House of Lords at that of the House of Commons? At least that would be some progress.

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

If one did that, one would hard-wire party political imbalance into the House of Lords, and that would not be acceptable without allowing the British people any say in its composition. There has clearly been a setback for people such as the hon. Lady, who believes in and has been articulate in her advocacy of democratic reform of the House of Lords. However, I do not think that it is the end of the story. The current trajectory of the House of Lords, even if the Lord Steel Bill were introduced, is impractical and unsustainable. I hope that, if not now, then in the next few years, we can return to the matter and both reduce the size of the House of Lords and make it more legitimate.

[Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD)]

Is my right hon. Friend aware of a recent quote from Lord Prescott, who said:

“The House of Lords is a bit like a job centre, you have to go down there to get paid expenses, and it just gets totally tiring”?

Is not it a shame that we have been unable to help the noble Lord out of his and our misery?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

No wonder he wants to be a police and crime commissioner, given all the hard work that he clearly puts into the House of Lords. It is one of my many regrets that we have not been able to make progress on the matter, and that I have been unable to put Lord Prescott out of his misery in the House of Lords.

[Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

Will the Deputy Prime Minister support an amendment to the Electoral Registration and Administration Bill, calling a halt to the boundary review?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I have set out my position 100 times already in the past hour.

[Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD)]

Will the Deputy Prime Minister speculate on how history will view Members of all parties of this House and the other place who overtly or covertly manoeuvred to block the reform of the House of Lords?

--- Later in debate ---

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

Badly, I think, because if we in the coalition Government had been dogmatic about the Bill’s content, the critics of our approach would have had a point, but we were extraordinarily pragmatic and flexible, making a barrage of changes to the measure to try to secure cross-party support. The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, my hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper) and I clearly signalled on Second Reading that we were prepared to change the Bill further to make it more acceptable to as many people as possible in all parties, as long we retained the principle, in some shape or form, that the British people, not party leaders, would have a say in who on earth actually sits in the House of Lords. Although we were rigid about the principle, we were pragmatic about the details, and that is why I regret, given our pragmatic approach, that we were unable to build on that to create a cross-party approach to the matter.

[Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)]

The Deputy Prime Minister has said that he will not take his seat in the House of Lords when the time comes. Will his party continue to make nominations to the House of Lords?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

Yes, of course. Just because the reforms have not been implemented, it does not mean that we will turn our back on the real world. The system is as it is, at least for a while longer, and we will continue to operate in it. I would be delighted to take my place in a reformed and more democratic House of Lords, but, as I said, I suspect that I am not wholly welcome in its current configuration.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)]

Thank you, Mr Speaker. The spectacle of Cabinet Ministers voting against a major Government Bill without resigning their positions will surely bring collective Cabinet responsibility into total disrepute. Given that the Deputy Prime Minister believes in making progress by inches, will he not support a single, simple, one-line Bill to allow the exclusion from the upper House of people who have been convicted of serious criminal offences?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

As I said before, that barely scratches the surface of the issues that exist in the House of Lords. On the first point, the failure of collective responsibility is a political one in which one party in the coalition Government has not honoured the commitments set out in the coalition agreement to proceed with reform of the House of Lords. Let me be clear—[Interruption.] If I can make myself heard, let me be clear: I have asked Liberal Democrat Members countless times to vote for things to which they strongly object, because they were in the coalition agreement. The hon. Gentleman cannot reasonably ask me to ask Liberal Democrat MPs to continue as if nothing has happened, when the other side of the coalition chooses not to do so on an issue as important as reform of the House of Lords. That is coalition politics, and it will continue until one party—the hon. Gentleman’s party or another—wins an outright majority. That did not happen in the previous election; that is why we have a coalition, and the country is better for it.

[Mr Speaker]

I am grateful to the Deputy Prime Minister and to colleagues.

Oral Answers to Questions

Nick Clegg Excerpts

Tuesday 10th July 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab)]

1. If he will estimate the change in the number of voters on the electoral register between 1 December 2014 and 1 December 2015.

[The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Nick Clegg)]

Before I answer the hon. Gentleman’s question, I am sure that the whole House will join me in offering our deepest sympathies to the family of PC Ian Dibell and his colleagues in Essex police. Our police officers keep us safe day in and day out, and they act when they see public safety at risk, whether on duty or not. PC Ian Dibell was a dedicated professional who sadly has paid the ultimate price.

The Government are committed to ensuring that the maximum number of eligible people are registered to vote. Our impact assessment report on individual electoral registration predicted that the current completeness of the electoral register is expected to be maintained during the transition to IER. As part of IER, we are actively exploring ways in which we can make it as easy and secure as possible for citizens to register to vote—for example, by enabling online registration. The Government are also working to raise registration rates among under-registered groups prior to the transition to IER.

[Mr Bain]

May I associate myself, and doubtless all right hon. and hon. Members, with the Deputy Prime Minister’s opening remarks?

Will the Deputy Prime Minister join me in welcoming the increase in voter registration of 40,000 in the past four years that has been secured by Labour-run Glasgow city council? Is not this rise of more than 10% in danger of being wiped out by his proposals for individual voter registration, which when tried out in Northern Ireland took more than one in five voters off the electoral roll?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

The hon. Gentleman might be unaware of the record on overall levels of registration during the years in which his party was in office. In 2000, 91% to 92% of all people were registered; in other words, 3.9 million people were missing from the register. By December 2010, the completeness of the register had gone down to 85% to 87%. Labour therefore presided over 2 million people being lost from the register —not a record that I suggest he should be proud of.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

Many people go missing from the register when they move home. What is being done with estate agents and letting agencies to make sure that people are registered when they change their address?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

We have been working with those involved to make sure that the system is as complete as possible. That is in addition to many other measures that we have developed, most notably the data-matching work that we have done such that many people do not need to register if they already exist on a database. All the evidence is that that will provide automatic registration for a very large number of people.

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

Many people believe that the number of electors on the new electoral register will be significantly depleted by December 2015. Given that this is when the new boundary review is to begin, would it not be sensible to use the old register for the boundary review?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

As we have seen from the latest statistics, the old register appears to be much more flawed than the hon. Gentleman’s question implies. We are trying to learn from that experience and from other experiences such as individual voter registration in Northern Ireland. We are not only carrying out the data-matching initiative that I mentioned, but moving the 2013 household canvass to early 2014 to make sure that it is as up to date as possible ahead of the next general election; phasing the transition over two years to carry forward existing electors who are not registered under the new system in the first year so that they are eligible to vote at the next general election; and writing to all voters with reminders and doorstep canvassing in 2014.

[Brandon Lewis (Great Yarmouth) (Con)]

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that individual voter registration will get us not just a fairer but a much more accurate voting system?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

Absolutely. Let us remember that the point of this measure, and the reason why both parties on the Government Benches agreed to put it in the coalition agreement and to accelerate the process started under the previous Government is to bear down on fraud on the electoral register. I hope that all Members from all parts of the House think that we need to stamp on that.

[Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab)]

2. What assessment he has made of the implications for his policies on constitutional reform of the introduction of a British Bill of Rights.

--- Later in debate ---

[Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)]

6. What his policy is on the holding of a referendum on his plans for House of Lords reform.

[The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Nick Clegg)]

We are not persuaded by the arguments for holding a referendum on Lords reform. All three main parties committed to reform at the last election, and the views of the public are clearly and consistently in favour of introducing democratic legitimacy to the House of Lords.

[Rosie Cooper]

The Deputy Prime Minister said in the House yesterday:

“Surely, it is simply time to trust the British people.”—[Official Report, 9 July 2012; Vol. 548, c. 26.]

Can you explain why you do not trust the British people to decide on the House of Lords in a referendum?

[Mr Speaker]

I am not going to be explaining anything, but the Deputy Prime Minister might want to try.

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

First, as I said, unlike other issues on which we have held referendums, on which there were profound differences between the stated positions of the political parties, all the main parties in the House have committed to reforming the other place for many years in their manifestos. Secondly, at a time like this, on a subject on which we are supposed to agree and when much of the country expects us to instil democracy in Parliament, it would be difficult to justify wasting about £80 million asking the public a question that they do not find controversial in the first place. That would nonplus many members of the public.

The final, very important point is that we as a country are going to face a hugely important issue in a referendum on the future of the United Kingdom during the course of this Parliament. I genuinely ask the hon. Lady, other members of her party and others who advocate a referendum to reflect seriously on the wisdom of saying that there should be another, parallel referendum that the public are not clamouring for, at a time when we are seeking to settle the future of the UK.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

The Deputy Prime Minister says that he is not persuaded; let me try. There have been referendums on devolved Governments in Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland, on devolution for the north-east, on the alternative vote and on city mayors. Why can he not accept the genuine argument that to ensure the validation of such a major constitutional change as he proposes, we must put the question to the people on precedence as well as on principle?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

Both the hon. Gentleman’s question and yesterday’s debate have revealed that House of Lords reform is immeasurably more controversial here than anywhere else in the rest of the country. The rest of the country thinks that there is a simple choice to be made—are we in favour of more democracy or less? Are we in favour of the simple principle that the people who make the laws of the land should be elected by the people who have to obey them? No one else thinks that is controversial, only the politicians, so why do we not just get on with it?

[Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD)]

What conclusions does the Deputy Prime Minister think the public will draw if this House is incapable, with or without a referendum, of reforming a House of Lords packed with prime ministerial appointees and hereditary peers?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

We rightly take pride in our democratic traditions in this country. We send young servicemen and servicewomen to fight for the principle of democracy elsewhere in the world, and we tour the world talking to other countries about how they should instil greater democracy. I think the rest of the world would look at this great mother of Parliaments and ask why on earth it was not possible for us to practise what we preach.

[Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)]

Why does the Deputy Prime Minister not have the guts to admit that the reason he fears a referendum on this issue is that he knows perfectly well that when people get to examine his recommendations they will utterly reject them, just as they did with the alternative vote?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

As ever, my hon. Friend brings to bear a healthy and consistent degree of suspicion. I have set out the reasons why the case for a referendum has not been made. It would be expensive, difficult to justify to the public, who do not think it is necessary, and ill timed when we as a country have a much bigger question to address, which is the future of the United Kingdom, let alone the future of one of our parliamentary Chambers.

[Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab)]

Does the Deputy Prime Minister agree that even without a programme motion, it is perfectly possible for the House of Commons to debate, scrutinise and amend the House of Lords Reform Bill, and get it out of the Commons, in a sensible time? If he does not agree, why did his manifesto and that of the Conservatives commit to abolishing programme motions for Committee stages?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

My own view, which I have always been very open about, is that a Bill of this complexity and self-evident controversy—at least in this place—is unlikely to progress without being properly timetabled in one shape or form. I should just ask the right hon. Gentleman this: is it not time he had the courage of his convictions? He says he believes in House of Lords reform, but he wills only the ends, not the means—[Interruption.] Will he just listen? The history books will not judge him kindly if he takes refuge in procedural obfuscation when this is a time for people to stand up and be counted.

[Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)]

5. When he expects to bring forward legislative proposals to reform the law of succession.

[The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Nick Clegg)]

Finally a question not on the House of Lords.

I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on his excellent work. He has been a steadfast campaigner for reform of the law of succession. I can confirm that we will bring forward UK legislation to give effect to changes to the rules of succession once we have secured the consent of the other Commonwealth realms. As he is aware, that work is being co-ordinated by the New Zealand Government, with whom we are working very closely. It is worth noting that the change on gender will apply to a child born after the date of the Perth announcement, namely 28 October 2011, even if the birth happens before the legislation is passed.

[Keith Vaz]

I thank the Deputy Prime Minister for that answer, but it is sad that we have waited a year since I met him and offered my ten-minute rule Bill as the vehicle for this change. I realise that the change will be backdated, but it would be greatly embarrassing if a royal child were born before we finally settle the matter. Does he have any plans to go to New Zealand to meet the Prime Minister there to try to get this matter speeded up?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

As the right hon. Gentleman knows, thankfully the embarrassment would be spared if a child were born after the date at which the Perth decision was made. The rights of that unborn child are properly protected by the procedures. Just like him, I would love to wave a magic wand and dispense with such outdated and anachronistic rules governing whom a person in the line of succession can marry and those on male primogeniture, but we must move as a convoy with the 16 other Commonwealth realms. For one reason or another, that takes a bit of time.

[Mrs Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con)]

The House appreciates the progress that the Deputy Prime Minister and the Government have made with the Commonwealth Heads of Government, but does he agree that, surely, during this jubilee year when people not only in the UK, but right across the Commonwealth, have shown that they hold our Queen in extremely high regard, nobody could possibly argue that a woman cannot succeed to the throne?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

On this if not on other issues we have debated recently, I fervently agree with my hon. Friend. The idea that a younger son should become monarch instead of an elder daughter simply because he is a man is incomprehensible in this day and age.

[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

[The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Nick Clegg)]

As Deputy Prime Minister, I support the Prime Minister on a full range of Government policy and initiatives. Within the Government, I take special responsibility for our programme of political and constitutional reform.

[Glyn Davies]

The Deputy Prime Minister often speaks of the importance of fairness in our society. There is a crisis meeting in London tomorrow of dairy farmers from across Britain about the reductions in prices imposed on them by processors. Will my right hon. Friend join me in condemning that outrageous behaviour?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

Like many hon. Members on both sides of the House, I have met dairy farmers in my constituency who are distressed by the fluctuating prices in the milk and dairy market. As my hon. Friend knows, the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs is actively engaged, and it will look closely at the representations that will be made tomorrow.

[Ms Harriet Harman (Camberwell and Peckham) (Lab)]

How much has children’s participation in school sports fallen since the Deputy Prime Minister’s Government abolished the school sports partnership, which Labour introduced?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I cannot give the right hon. and learned Lady a precise figure, but I hope that—

[Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) (Lab)]

Why not?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

Because I am not a walking encyclopaedia. I do not have all these facts and figures. [Interruption.] Oh, I am sorry. Am I also guilty of not knowing every single departmental statistic? I am sure the hon. Lady would have had the figure at her fingertips if she were in my position. Honestly!

None the less, I hope that the right hon. and learned Lady will co-operate with the Government in a positive spirit as we enthuse many, many children to take up sports that they have not taken up before and as we move towards this historic occasion of the Olympics.

[Ms Harman]

The truth is that the Deputy Prime Minister does not know, and neither do the Government, because they have made it their business not to know by abolishing the school sports survey. Like people up and down the country, we are concerned about this, and our freedom of information requests to local councils show that the amount of PE teacher time spent organising school sport has fallen by 60%. At a time when everyone wants more children involved in more sport, will he admit that what his Government have done is a travesty, and will he reinstate the school sports partnerships?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I certainly remember the travesty under the right hon. and learned Lady’s Government of the industrial-scale sell-off of school playing fields. She never listened to complaints from us when that was going on. I think she should celebrate the fact that in this year, the year of the Olympics, thousands upon thousands of children are taking up sports they have never done before as part of the school Olympics.

[Dr Daniel Poulter (Central Suffolk and North Ipswich) (Con)]

T3. I am sure that the Deputy Prime Minister will agree that for far too long there has been an emphasis in NHS mental health services on crisis management rather than on the prevention and the community support that patients require. Will he outline what steps the Government are taking to address this problem and properly to look after patients with mental health problems in the community?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I strongly agree with my hon. Friend. I hope he has noticed that the operating framework recently published by the Department of Health for the NHS in England sets out priorities for the NHS that, for the first time, stipulate the expansion of access to psychological services as part of the overall commitment to the full roll-out of the improving access to psychological therapies programme by 2015. I know that the Minister of State, Department of Health, my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow), has dedicated a lot of time to this. I say to Members on both sides of the House who spoke in that very moving debate recently on mental health that they played a remarkable role in breaking down some of the taboos by speaking about an issue that afflicts one in four people in his country and which has often been kept in the shadows, leaving people to suffer in silence. It is finally being talked about in a more grown-up and open way.

[Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab)]

T2. The Deputy Prime Minister wants the House of Lords to be more accountable, yet his Government are giving new dictatorial powers to elected mayors to veto decisions made by elected councillors. Will he say where the accountability is there?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I do not think they would be dictatorial powers in the hands of someone who has been democratically elected, but perhaps the hon. Lady sees some consistency between that position and defending unelected Members of the other place. I do not.

[Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con)]

T7. It is vital that the electoral roll is accurate, but young people are quite poor at getting their names on to it. What measures can the Deputy Prime Minister take to ensure that they are engaged in the democratic process and put their names forward to cast a vote?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

Interestingly, registration rates among young people in Northern Ireland are now higher than they are here, so we have looked carefully at what has been done in Northern Ireland to reach out in different ways to young people in order to tell them how to register and, crucially, to ensure that they are informed at the right time, so that they go on to register and get their names on the electoral roll.

[John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab)]

T4. When this place passes a Bill that changes the power of the ballot box, which, it is generally agreed, the House of Lords Reform Bill undoubtedly does, how can the Deputy Prime Minister justify the argument that people are not entitled to a referendum?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

As I explained earlier, although House of Lords reform greatly exercises people here—people in Westminster get terribly hot under the collar—most people in the country at large think it a fairly common sense reform to introduce a slither of democracy to a legislative Chamber. It is not an issue on which the main parties, formally speaking, disagree, and a referendum would be very expensive and, as I said, cut across an all-important referendum on the future of the United Kingdom.

[David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)]

T10. There is a body of opinion in Scotland that says that the upcoming referendum should have a third option: devo-max. Does the Deputy Prime Minister agree that putting that option on the ballot paper in advance of detailed discussions with the UK Government would be misleading and wrong?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I disagree with people who want to turn the referendum on Scotland’s place in the United Kingdom into a sort of smorgasbord or multiple-choice exercise. That is playing cat and mouse with the Scottish voters. There should be a simple question —whether Scotland remains part of the United Kingdom: yes or no? In our view, that question, in plain, simple terms, should be put to the Scottish people as soon as possible.

[Mr Stephen Hepburn (Jarrow) (Lab)]

T5. You were elected on the promise to scrap tuition fees, yet you trebled them, to such an extent that there is now a 12% reduction in the north-east in university applications. How can we trust you on anything, let alone House of Lords reform?

[Mr Speaker]

First, I have not broken any pledge. Secondly, I hope that the hon. Gentleman is not inclined to distrust me, but I will assume that his question was directed at the Deputy Prime Minister.

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

First, I have never hidden the fact that, as leader of a party that has 8% of MPs in this Chamber, I cannot deliver—much to my regret: not enough people voted for us at the last general election—every single line, and every crossed t and dotted i of our manifesto. That is the nature of plural compromise politics, and it is something that some of us are grown up enough to acknowledge.

On the all-important issue of the number of applications to university in the recent UCAS figures, which have been published overnight, the proportion of English school leavers applying to university is, in fact, the second highest on record. The percentage of 18-year-olds from disadvantaged areas applying to university is, according to the figures we have seen overnight, higher than at any time under the Labour Government.

[Karl MᶜCartney (Lincoln) (Con)]

The Deputy Prime Minister believes that we need 360 new elected politicians in Parliament. If I may be so bold as to paraphrase a well-respected former Prime Minister, Sir John Major, does this current Deputy Prime Minister agree that if the answer is more party-selected elected politicians, we are obviously asking the wrong question?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

The impression that is sometimes given of the House of Lords—where it is seen through a sepia-tinted filter and everyone there is a dispassionate observer of the scene, unsullied by politics entirely—unfortunately does not quite conform to the truth. More than 70% of the Members of the House of Lords are there because of decisions taken by people such as me, not the British people. The largest number of people who are in the House of Lords through their former vocation are retired MPs, so we can take a choice: either we give the British people a say in who is there or we simply turn it increasingly into a retirement home for ex-MPs.

[Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab)]

T6. When will the Government report on their Trident alternatives review, and will the Deputy Prime Minister commit to publishing the findings, which has not been the case with the Trident so-called value-for-money review?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

The review on the alternatives to a like-for-like replacement of the Trident system is ongoing, according to the stipulation in the coalition agreement. My hon. Friend the Minister for Defence is heavily involved with it, and I am sure he will come to this House and seek to make a statement when the work is complete.

[Sir Robert Smith (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)]

With the successful launch of the “Better Together” campaign, we now have campaigns in place for both sides of the argument on the future of Scotland. Has my right hon. Friend had a rational or sensible explanation from the Government of Scotland of why they want to deny the people of Scotland an early say in our future?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

Bluntly, no—perhaps we will get an explanation in this place. I do not think the uncertainty of this endless boxing and coxing, and playing cat and mouse with the Scottish people on the part of the Scottish Government, does Scotland any good. It is damaging to investment. Indeed, a number of investors in Scotland and business groups have been saying that the uncertainty is bad for the Scottish economy, at a time when we are clearly facing economic difficulties in the United Kingdom as a whole. I therefore agree with my hon. Friend that it is time that we got on and simply put a simple, single question to the Scottish people, so that they can decide what their future is: in the United Kingdom or not.

[Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab)]

T9. If the Deputy Prime Minister gets another mauling in the House today, will he finally change his mind about giving proper scrutiny to the House of Lords Reform Bill in this House, and if not, what will it take?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

As the hon. Gentleman knows, the previous Labour Government introduced countless constitutional Bills that touched on our constitutional future in relation to the European Union, all of which were timetabled. We have been asking those on the Opposition Front Bench over and over again how many days the Opposition would like on the timetable but, still, answer comes there none.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

Yesterday, the Deputy Prime Minister did an able job in defending himself against all the protests coming from behind him. Has he noticed that a silent protest is taking place today, in that Conservative Ministers have not come to support him on the Front Bench? There are 10 Ministers here who are not Whips, and only three of them are not Liberal Democrats.

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

The hon. Gentleman made a similar head count yesterday. His forensic fascinations, first with the early death of the Prime Minister and now with exactly who is on the Front Bench, continue to fascinate me. I am waiting with bated breath to see what his next rather peculiar fascination will be.

[Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)]

T11. Will the Deputy Prime Minister extend his commendable enthusiasm to trusting the people and extending democracy by giving our people a right that is enjoyed in almost every other free country in the world—that is, will he allow them to vote on whether Charles, William or A. N. Other should be our next Head of State?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I am struggling enough simply to make the case for what I see as the plain vanilla, common-sense proposition that the people in the other place who make the laws of the land should be elected by those who have to obey the laws of the land. I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman’s proposition, but let us focus on the argument on the other place right now, as it has not yet been fully won.

[Mrs Helen Grant (Maidstone and The Weald) (Con)]

Does the Deputy Prime Minister agree that the Government’s apprenticeship programme, which offers a brilliant alternative to the strictures of academia for many people, could provide a fantastic boost for social mobility in Britain?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I strongly agree with my hon. Friend. The apprenticeship programme is one of the things that Government Members should be proudest of. We are expanding opportunities for young people through increased apprenticeships on a scale never before seen in the post-war period, and we will be delivering 250,000 more apprenticeships than were planned by Labour. My hon. Friend is absolutely right to say that, for those who do not think that an academic qualification at university is the best route when they leave school or college, apprenticeships are a great tried and tested way of giving them the opportunities that have been denied to them for so long.

[Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

T12. Wrexham Remploy workers, whom the Deputy Prime Minister refused to meet in April this year, have been told at the final hour that their jobs have been taken away from them. Will he now meet those people whom he wants to put on the dole even though a private investment company has offered to keep them in work? The Government, and the Deputy Prime Minister, have refused to let that happen.

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

As the hon. Gentleman might know, the Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, my hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke (Maria Miller), will be making a statement on this matter straight after Deputy Prime Minister’s questions. He will also know that the recommendations on the reform of the Remploy factories across the country—

[Ian Lucas]

Answer my question.

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

Perhaps he could just listen to the answer. Those recommendations were made not by Ministers or politicians; they were made by a number of authoritative figures who decided that segregation in the—

[Ian Lucas]

Answer my question.

[Mr Speaker]

Order. The Deputy Prime Minister is contending with a great deal, about which I am sure he makes no complaint. I know that the hon. Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas) wants an answer—that message is clear—but he must not keep ranting from a sedentary position. It is not statesmanlike, and ordinarily, I expect him to be statesmanlike.

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

Liz Sayce, the expert in question, said that the practice of effectively segregating people in one part of the labour market, away from everyone else, was not a sensible way of protecting their interests in the 21st century.

[Amber Rudd (Hastings and Rye) (Con)]

Many of my constituents have written to me to express their support for House of Lords reform, but many have also taken the opportunity to remind me of our need to reduce the cost of politics. Will the Deputy Prime Minister tell us whether the reforms will significantly increase the cost of politics?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

In effect, when the reforms across Parliament are all said and done, they will be cost-neutral.

[Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)]

T13. In May, the Deputy Prime Minister obliged my Newcastle constituents to vote on mayors. In May last year, he obliged them to vote on the alternative vote system. In November, which is not usually a warm month in Newcastle, he is going to force them to vote on police commissioners. Why, then, will he not give them the right to vote on the most wide-ranging constitutional change that he is proposing?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I have sought to answer this question as best I can a number of times before. The hon. Lady cites police and crime commissioners, and she is right: the people will be able to elect them. I ask her quite simply: why is it okay to elect police and crime commissioners, but not to elect the people who shape the laws over which those police and crime commissioners have to preside?

[Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD)]

Will my right hon. Friend join me in observing that there are four times as many members of the House of Lords over 90 as there are those under 40, and reflect on the fact that this rather implies that this Parliament as a whole does not represent younger people in particular? What measures can the Government take to involve younger people more in our democracy? In particular, will he look again at giving votes to 16 and 17-year-olds?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

As my hon. Friend knows, I am very sympathetic to that cause, but it does not constitute part of the coalition agreement. As I have been saying exhaustively over the last 24 hours, it is important for all Members, particularly those of the two coalition parties, to fulfil the spirit and letter of that coalition agreement. On the issue of the interesting demographic profile of the House of Lords, it is not just one of age; it is also very striking that close to half the people in the House of Lords come from London and the south-east. What does that say about the geographical representativeness of one of our legislative Chambers? One of the great virtues of our reforms is that it will guarantee places to people from all the regions and nations of the United Kingdom.

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

If the programme motion on House of Lords reform is moved and lost, what effect will that have on the coalition?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I very much hope it will be won, as I think it would be inconsistent—this appears to be the position of the hon. Gentleman’s party—to vote in favour of the principle of reform but to deny this House the ability to deliver reform. That, in my view, would be a synthetic, skin-deep and cynical commitment to reform.

[Claire Perry (Devizes) (Con)]

Does the Deputy Prime Minister agree that the main dog’s breakfast around here is the financial inheritance left us by the Labour party? Is he as proud as I am of the fact that we have cut its deficit by a quarter since the election?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I strongly agree. During the heated exchanges on House of Lords reform, I think we forget that the central purpose of this Government is indeed to rescue, repair and reform the British economy, which has been so severely damaged by the Labour party.

[Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP)]

The Deputy Prime Minister has said that the present House of Lords is a “flawed” institution. Having listened to the debate thus far, does he agree that many Members believe that the reforms he proposes could lead to a flawed institution?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman’s work in the Joint Committee. One thing I heard yesterday was a number of Members making allegations that the Bill has been a rushed or botched job, and that we have somehow invented it out of thin blue air. As distinguished Opposition Members rightly pointed out, this blueprint for reform owes as much, if not more, to the work of the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) and to Robin Cook’s commission on the future of House of Lords. In many respects, it is a carbon copy of the proposals for reform stretching back to 2008 and many years before that. Before we vote this evening, it is important to remember that this is not something simply invented by this coalition Government; it is very much something that draws on the inspiration and wisdom of many people and reformers who have gone before us.

House of Lords Reform Bill

Nick Clegg Excerpts

Monday 9th July 2012 Commons Chamber

[The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Nick Clegg)]

I have it in command from Her Majesty the Queen to acquaint the House that Her Majesty, having been informed of the purport of the Bill, has consented to place her prerogative and interest, so far as they are affected by the Bill, at the disposal of Parliament for the purposes of the Bill.

[Mr Speaker]

I am extremely grateful, as will be the House, to the Deputy Prime Minister. Before we get the debate under way, I can inform the House that several dozen right hon. and hon. Members are today seeking to catch the eye of the Chair. The Deputy Speakers and I have compiled a list, very painstakingly. We are doing our best to accommodate as many colleagues as possible, but let me say at the outset that I ask colleagues please not—repeat, not—to come to the Chair inquiring whether and, if so, when they will be called to speak. Colleagues must display some patience. Just wait, attend to the debate and hope for the best. The Chair is trying to accommodate colleagues. To that end, in view of the level of interest, there will be a six-minute limit on Back-Bench contributions.

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

No one doubts the commitment and public service of many Members of the House of Lords, but dedicated individuals cannot compensate for flawed institutions. The Bill is about fixing a flawed institution, so let me begin by setting out why our upper Chamber is in need of these reforms—the three simple reasons why I hope Members will give it their full support. The first is that we—all of us here—believe in democracy. We believe that the people who make the laws should be chosen by the people who are subject to those laws. That principle was established in Britain after centuries of struggle and it is a principle that we still send our servicemen and women halfway across the world to defend, yet right now we are only one of only two countries in the world —the other being Lesotho—with an upper parliamentary chamber that is totally unelected and instead selects its members by birthright and patronage.

[Mr Peter Lilley (Hitchin and Harpenden) (Con)]

rose—

[Mr Richard Shepherd (Aldridge-Brownhills) (Con)]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I should like to make a little progress.

The House of Lords is an institution that offers its Members a job for life; an institution that serves the whole of the United Kingdom, yet draws around half its members from London and the south-east; an institution in which there are eight times as many people over 90 as there are people under 40; an institution that has no democratic mandate—none whatsoever—but that exercises real power. The House of Lords initiates Bills, it shapes legislation and, as Governments of all persuasions know, it can block Government proposals, too. These reforms seek to create a democratic House of Lords, matching power with legitimacy.

[Mr Lilley]

In his preamble to the draft Bill, the Deputy Prime Minister wrote:

“The House of Lords performs its work well”.

Is he saying that it works in practice, but not in theory?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I think that it is both flawed in theory, because of its lack of democratic legitimacy, and flawed in practice, because the status quo is unsustainable, as I shall now explain.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I shall make a little progress before giving way again.

Under our proposals, 80% of Members would be chosen at the ballot box, with elections taking place every five years, and the remaining 20% would be appointed by an independent statutory commission. There would be no more jobs for life—we propose single, non-renewable, limited terms of about 15 years—and our reforms would guarantee representation for every region of the United Kingdom. At the heart of the Bill is the vision of a House of Lords that is more modern, more representative and more legitimate—a Chamber fit for the 21st century.

[Mr Frank Field (Birkenhead) (Lab)]

A moment ago, the Deputy Prime Minister said that one of the functions of the House of Lords was to introduce legislation. Can he give us an example—of importance—of a Bill introduced in the other House that has affected this country but that did not have the Government’s permission to be introduced and seen through? Is not the Lords job different from ours? Our job is to initiate and pass legislation on the condition of the Government; the Lords job is to deliberate on that legislation.

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

All legislation, whether it originates here or in the other place, of course requires the support of the Government of the day to make its way on to the statute book.

The second reason that the reforms will lead to better laws—this may help to answer the right hon. Gentleman—is that the Bill is not just about who legislates, but about how we legislate. Right now in our political system, power is still over-concentrated in the Executive. Governments, quite simply, can be too powerful. During their political lifetime, many Members have seen landslide Administrations able to railroad whichever Bills they like through the Commons, and we have all heard colleagues complain about different Governments trying to ram Bills through the other place when they should have been trying to win the argument in both Houses. Despite its assertiveness, too often Governments believe they can disregard the Lords.

[Mr Shepherd]

My intervention was prompted by the Deputy Prime Minister’s statement of the principle that those who make the law should be elected by those who bear it. Of course, the older and greater principle is that those who make the laws should be accountable to those who bear the laws, and there is no accountability in the process that he is introducing.

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

In answer to the hon. Gentleman, I would say that there is neither accountability nor legitimacy in the status quo. These are jobs for life, which are entirely discharged without any reference to the British people. Surely, it is simply time to trust the British people.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I shall make a little more progress, if I may.

The Bill, by creating a more legitimate House of Lords, gives it more authority to hold Governments to account—a greater check on Executive power. That does not mean emboldening the Lords to the point that it threatens the Commons—I shall come on to those concerns shortly—but it does mean bolstering its role as a Chamber that scrutinises Government. It means forcing Governments to treat an elected upper Chamber with greater respect. The aim of the Bill, to quote the right hon. Member for Charnwood (Mr Dorrell), is to create a second Chamber

“more independent of the executive, more able to exercise independent judgment”.

That will mean not only better laws, but fewer laws, restricting, again in the words of my right hon. Friend,

“the torrent of half-baked legislation”

that Governments are capable of.

[Jesse Norman (Hereford and South Herefordshire) (Con)]

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for giving way. The Blair Government were defeated four times in the House of Commons and 460 times in the House of Lords. Does the right hon. Gentleman really believe that an elected House of political placemen will do a better job of opposing than does the current House of Lords?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

It will be able to discharge that considerable authority with greater legitimacy, and therefore it will be harder for the Executive to ignore the opinions of the House of Lords. I would have thought, if I may say so, that it was a long-standing Conservative principle that it is the people who should be in the driving seat and the Executive who should be kept on their toes.

The third reason to support the Bill—

[Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con)]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I shall make some more progress.

The third reason to support the Bill is simple practicality. The House of Lords cannot carry on on its current path. We need to reform the Lords to keep it functioning, and we need to do it soon.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

--- Later in debate ---

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I will give way in a minute, if I may make this point.

Right now, we have an upper Chamber that is ever-expanding. That is one of the main consequences of the unfinished 1999 reforms. Very simply, after a general election, new Governments will always seek to reflect the balance of the vote in the Lords. But it is impossible to get rid of Members: the only way to leave is to die. So new Administrations inevitably have to make more appointments to get the balance right. [Interruption.] The current membership is 816. That will soon be over 1,000. Clearly, the status quo is unsustainable. [Interruption.] The House of Lords is already—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I apologise for interrupting the Deputy Prime Minister. There is a permanent cacophony in the Chamber and Members might think that it is some sort of laughing matter, but as far as a lot of people observing our proceedings are concerned, it is just discourteous. The right hon. Gentleman has a right both to speak and to be heard with reasonable decorum. That is what Members would want for themselves; that is what Members should extend to the right hon. Gentleman.

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

The point that I was making, then I shall give way, is that the status quo is unsustainable. The House of Lords is already too big, and it will continue to grow bigger still under whichever Government, unless we do something about it.

[Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)]

If, for whatever reason, the Deputy Prime Minister is unsuccessful in getting the White Paper through this afternoon—[Hon. Members: “It is a Bill.”]—will he pledge today that he and other senior Liberal Democrats will not take their places in an unreformed House of Lords?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I am making the case for the Government’s Bill. I am not going to make predictions about a vote tomorrow, which I firmly believe will be carried.

The Bill reverses that trend. It gradually reduces the membership and caps it at 450, plus 12 bishops. Some people have said that the numbers could be dealt with much more easily, that we can slim the other place by disqualifying convicted criminals or allowing Members to resign.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I will give way shortly.

The first solution would bring the total down by a handful, potentially; the second perhaps by none. Others have said, “Yes, cap the House at an appropriate limit, but make it fully appointed.” But how could we possibly justify dramatic reform of the Lords that did not introduce a democratic element? That would be unthinkable. It would be in direct contravention of each of the three main parties’ manifestos, flying in the face of our collective promise to renew our politics. The only way to get to grips with the numbers is fundamental democratic reform. That is what the Bill does.

[Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con)]

I entirely agree with the Deputy Prime Minister that the people need to be part of the process and feel that Parliament belongs to them, so will he give them a vote on his proposals?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I think that a referendum is not justified in this instance, for the following reasons: first, unlike other issues that are a source of great disagreement here, all three main parties are committed to delivering House of Lords reform, by way of their own manifestos, which they put to the British people at the last election, the one before that, and the one before that; secondly, it would be very expensive—£80 million—for something on which we are all supposed to agree; and thirdly, it would detract attention from the much more important referendum taking place in this Parliament: the referendum on the future of the United Kingdom.

[David Tredinnick (Bosworth) (Con)]

Has my right hon. Friend seen the Bill in the name of his right hon. Friend Lord Steel, the House of Lords (Cessation of Membership) Bill, which addresses the issue of over-membership in the other place and has widespread support there?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

Of course I have examined that Bill and discussed it with Lord Steel extensively. Any reasonable person who subjected it to any scrutiny would conclude that it would not deal with the practical issues to which I have alluded—the House of Lords getting bigger and bigger—because voluntary resignation or the kicking out of convicted criminals simply will not deal with the unsustainable trajectory of the size of the House of Lords.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I will make a little more headway, and then of course I will give way.

Democracy, better laws and the urgent and practical need for reform are the three reasons why Members of this House should give the Bill their blessing and wish it a swift passage into law. Before addressing some of the concerns about the Government’s proposals, I would like to make the point that the Bill, although it has been introduced by the coalition Government, in many ways is not just the Government’s Bill. These reforms build on the work of our predecessors on both sides of the House. As with all the best examples of British constitutional reform, the proposals look to the future but are respectful of the past. Veterans of these debates will know that the coalition parties cannot claim full credit for the reforms presented here. If we go back to the White Paper produced by the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) in 2008, the late Robin Cook’s “Breaking the Deadlock”, the House of Lords Act 1999, Lord Wakeham’s royal commission and everything that went before over the past 100 years, it is clear that these reforms have a long bloodline that includes all our parties and political traditions.

[Mrs Main]

Does the Deputy Prime Minister not see that there is a degree of inconsistency between his view that we in this House are too powerful and therefore need neutering by the House of Lords and his voting to maintain the strengthening of the Executive and the boundary changes by keeping the number of Ministers yet reducing the number of Back-Bench Members of Parliament?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

One of the Bill’s intentions is absolutely not to neuter the House of Commons, but to work in partnership with the House of Commons in holding the Executive to account. I would have thought that Members on both sides of the House would celebrate and support anything that means that Parliament as a whole can hold the Executive more fully to account. Indeed, in 1910, when Government proposals to limit the power of the House of Lords were introduced, it was Winston Churchill who said:

“I would like to see a Second Chamber which would be fair to all parties, and which would be properly subordinated to the House of Commons and harmoniously connected with the people.”

He ended by saying:

“The time for words is past; the time for action has arrived.”—[Official Report, 31 March 1910; Vol. 15, c. 1572-83.]

More than 100 years later, I could not agree more.

[Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

Many of us who have sympathy with the need to reform the other place are still deeply concerned about these proposals. Will the Deputy Prime Minister tell us what it was in his recent experiences that has suggested that the kind of democracy we need is one where politicians can say what the hell they like, stay for 15 years and never have to face the voters again?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I think that it is preferable to their being there, making the laws of the land and never being put before the British people. I would hope that the hon. Gentleman, if he believes in House of Lords reform as strongly as the Labour party always has—it used to be a long and noble campaigning tradition for the party—will not only will the ends by backing Second Reading, but will the means by backing the programme motion.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

If I could just make some progress—[Hon. Members: “Give way!”] Yes, of course I give way.

[Nicholas Soames (Mid Sussex) (Con)]

I am very grateful to my right hon. Friend, but will he cease to quote Churchill on these matters, given that they relate to Churchill’s views on the House of Lords at a time of great conflict between the House of Commons and the House of Lords in the 1920s? As he grew up through his political life, he dropped those views and had great reverence and respect for the institution of the House of Lords—something that I suggest my right hon. Friend should have as well.

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

Of course I will always refer to the views of Winston Churchill with a great deal of respect, but I point out only that he expressed those views in 1910, when of course he was a Liberal, not in the 1920s. I know that he changed his views later, and they are a matter of record.

[Margaret Beckett (Derby South) (Lab)]

Will the Deputy Prime Minister cease also to say that the Labour party has supported reform of the House of Lords since 1910? What we supported in 1910 was abolition.

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

If the Labour party’s views have evolved over the past 100 years, which in this matter, if not in others, they may have, I hope none the less that the right hon. Lady will confirm that there was a clear manifesto commitment from the Labour party not only to support the principle of House of Lords reform, but to deliver it in practice.

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

Will the Deputy Prime Minister give way?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I shall make a little more progress, if I may.

In 2007, the Commons voted overwhelmingly for a mostly elected second Chamber. Each of the main parties stood on a platform of Lords reform at the last election, and since coming into Government the Minister for Political and Constitutional Reform, the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, my hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper), and I have looked for every way to take it forward by consensus.

We convened a cross-party Committee, which I chaired. We then published a White Paper and a draft Bill for pre-legislative scrutiny.

[Conor Burns (Bournemouth West) (Con)]

rose—

[Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)]

rose—

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I shall make a little more headway.

A Joint Committee of both Houses spent nine months considering that White Paper and draft Bill, and I remain extremely grateful for the Joint Committee’s forensic and detailed analysis. We accepted more than half its recommendations and reshaped the Bill around its advice.

This Bill is therefore the sincere result of long and shared endeavour. Its history belongs to us all: to Liberals, to Conservatives, to Labour and to all other parties in this House, as well as to the great political reformers and pragmatists of the past.

[Conor Burns]

The Deputy Prime Minister is making an articulate case for a position to which he holds with great conviction, and I respect his integrity in that, but does he accept that many of us fear that by electing the second Chamber and giving it the greater legitimacy he talks about, we will end up creating a rival to this Chamber, rather than the revising Chamber that we all want.

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I know that the hon. Gentleman holds his views, although different from mine, with great sincerity, and I respect him for that, but in a bicameral democratic system there is nothing unusual about having two Chambers, both of which are either fully elected or mainly elected, and in which there is a clear imbalance, an asymmetry—a hierarchy, if you like —in the relationship of one Chamber with the other. I am sure that we can manage it here. The predictions that it would lead to gridlock and to rivalry between the two Chambers were made when reform took place in 1958 and in 1999. They did not materialise then; I really do not believe that they will this time, either.

[Chris Bryant]

Will the Deputy Prime Minister give way?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

If I can make a little more progress, I will give way.

Of course, this does not mean that every Member of this House agrees with every clause—[Laughter.] That is an understatement! There is no perfect blueprint for a modernised second Chamber. Even within each of the main parties, differing visions of reform can be found, and this Bill reflects a number of compromises that have been made to accommodate differences across the House. I say to Members of this House who have specific worries about particular aspects of this Bill that this is precisely what further scrutiny of the proposals, in both Houses, will be about. The concerns that remain fall into two main camps: the myths, which I will now seek to dispel; and the fears, which I hope to address. But before doing so, I give way to the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant).

[Chris Bryant]

The Deputy Prime Minister knows that I support reform and have done for a very long time, but there are elements of the Bill that I do not like, such as the 15-year term and the fact that it is not clear enough about the respective powers of the two Houses. If the Government are going to end up Parliament-Acting the Bill because the Lords refuses to deal with it, it is all the more incumbent on us to get it right before we send it down the corridor. That is why I say to him, regretfully, that his programme does not fit the bill.

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I would be intrigued if the hon. Gentleman could tell me—if not now, afterwards —exactly how many days Labour Members want.

The right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain) said today in The Guardian that the reason he is opposing the programme motion has nothing to do with scrutiny of the Bill:

“Within the rest of the legislative programme are loads of right-wing bills which will damage people in Britain. So I don’t think it is any part of our responsibility to try and get those bills into statute.”

In other words, Labour’s ulterior motive appears to be to disrupt the rest of the Government’s business. That is not a legitimate way of dealing with a programme motion, which is a perfectly reasonable way for the Government to try to make progress on this important piece of legislation without disrupting all other parts of our business.

[Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)]

rose—

[Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)]

rose—

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I will make a little more progress and then give way again.

First, let me take the myths in turn. I have heard the accusation that the reforms will be too quick and too abrupt and that the Bill amounts to some frantic act of constitutional violence. The truth? These reforms would be implemented over about 15 years. New Members would be appointed or elected in three tranches over three elections. The political parties and groups would have maximum discretion over how to reduce their existing numbers.

I have heard it said that the modernised Lords will cost the earth. The truth? Taken as a whole, and once completed, the Government’s reforms of Parliament will be broadly cost-neutral.

[Mr Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) (Lab)]

rose—

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I will give way later.

The additional costs attached to running a reformed House of Lords—which, incidentally, are much more modest than some of the estimates doing the rounds—will be offset by the saving from reducing the number of MPs. Once all this is implemented, the real-terms cost of running Parliament is expected to be roughly the same as it is now; the only additional cost will be conducting the elections themselves.

[Mr Nuttall]

How can the Deputy Prime Minister justify not holding a referendum on these proposals when a referendum was held on the alternative vote system, which, by any stretch of the imagination, was not as wide-ranging?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

The reason is that the electoral system that votes Members to this House is a matter on which there is profound disagreement between the parties, whereas the principle of House of Lords reform is something to which we have committed ourselves in all our party manifestos over a prolonged period.

It is essential that we make a start by having the first 120 elected peers elected in 2015. If the hon. Gentleman or other Members of this place want further reassurance about the triggers that would then allow the second and third waves of election to take place, of course I, and the Government as a whole, will be prepared to engage with that.

[Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab)]

rose—

[Mrs Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con)]

rose—

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I will make a little more progress and then give way again.

I have heard Lords reform presented as some kind of Liberal Democrat crusade. The truth, as I have said on a number of occasions, is that it made its way into all the party manifestos—in the case of the Labour party, as the right hon. Member for Neath has indicated, going all the way back to Keir Hardie’s 1911 manifesto.

The final myth is this: I have heard it said that the House of Commons should not be concerning itself—

[Mrs Laing]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

--- Later in debate ---

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

May I first deal with this important point? The hon. Lady has raised it with me personally on a number of occasions, so perhaps she would care to listen to my answer.

The final myth is that the House of Commons should not be concerning itself with Lords reform at a time of economic difficulty. My answer is this: let’s get on with it—proper scrutiny, yes; years of foot-dragging, no. I do not remember this complaint being made when we legislated to create elected police commissioners, or when we were debating local government finance or legal aid reform. It is odd to suggest that Parliament cannot do more than one thing at a time. I certainly agree that jobs and growth are the priority, so let us not tie ourselves up in knots on Lords reform. We do not need to—all the parties are signed up to it. We should vote for the Bill and the programme motion so that we can scrutinise the Bill properly while still allowing ourselves to make progress on other Government priorities.

[Mrs Laing]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for giving way. It happens that he has just hit on the very point on which I agree with him entirely. We do have a duty to reform the House of Lords, even though we are doing other things at the same time. He is absolutely right about that, but what a pity that he does not accept Lord Steel’s Bill and get on with the necessary reform that everybody agrees with. If all three party manifestos gave no choice on House of Lords reform, is that not a good reason to put it to the people in a referendum, because in the election they had no chance to vote against it?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

Following that logic, the commitment to a referendum on House of Lords reform should have been included in the party manifestos.

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

It was in ours.

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I know, but it was not in the manifestos of two of the three main parties.

The second point that I make to the hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing), who was a distinguished member of the Joint Committee, is that although she and I do not agree on this matter, I hope she does agree that the Government listened meticulously to the conclusions of the Joint Committee, which supported the main tenets of the Bill on a cross-party basis and was chaired by a Member of the other place who was not from either of the coalition parties. That shows how consensual we have been in working up our ideas.

I will move on from the myths that have abounded to some of the fears about the Bill, many of which, I accept, have been expressed in good faith. Broadly, there is a worry that we risk upsetting a delicate constitutional balance, creating a second Chamber that is too assertive and therefore a threat to this place, as was alluded to earlier. I am not surprised by that. It is part of a—

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I will give way in a minute, if I may make progress on this point.

I am not surprised by that fear because it is part of a normal and familiar pattern. Every time the other place has been reformed, questions over the primacy of the Commons have arisen, with predictions ranging from disaster to apocalypse. In 1999, some said that the new life peers would not accept the traditional conventions and would block manifesto Bills in which Governments legislate on their election promises, resulting in endless gridlock over Government priorities. As with all such predictions, that was completely wrong. The reformed House accepted that the conventions would continue and adjusted to its new status without overreaching its role as a junior partner, as it will again.

[Philip Davies]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I will just deal with the issue of primacy. Although questions of primacy are important and must be answered, we must remember that these fears are the routine reflexes to Lords reform. The Bill will not turn the other place into some kind of monster. It relates to size and composition only and contains no new powers for the other place.

[Philip Davies]

If we may go back to myths for a second, one myth is that it is an important principle to the right hon. Gentleman that people who initiate legislation should be elected. If that is such an important principle, why does he not insist on elections for European Commissioners, who initiate far more legislation in this country than people in the House of Lords?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

As the hon. Gentleman knows, the European Commission has no right to adopt legislation. If he applied part of his well-renowned fervour against unelected bureaucrats in Brussels to unelected peers in the House of Lords, we would make a considerable progress.

Ultimately, the primacy of the Commons will remain grounded in our conventions and absolutely guaranteed by our laws.

[Helen Jones]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

If I may, I will make progress on the issue of primacy.

To ensure that there is a rock-solid legal backstop, the Parliament Acts will remain. We have reaffirmed those Acts in the Bill to make that point crystal clear. The Government will still be based in the Commons, the appointed element of the new Chamber means that it will never be able to claim greater electoral legitimacy, and the Commons will, of course, continue to have sole responsibility for money Bills.

[Mr Tom Clarke]

The Deputy Prime Minister has referred on a number of occasions to the Joint Committee on which I and other colleagues served. Does he think that it best served the purposes of reform when the Government declined, despite our encouragement, to give us any information about funding and refused us legal advice in the form of the Attorney-General?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I pay tribute to the right hon. Gentleman for his work on the Joint Committee. As I hope he knows, we have published the costings of our proposals in full and in detail. Everyone can scrutinise them line by line. Of course, we were not in a position to provide him with a line-by-line analysis of the costings at that stage because we were waiting to change the Bill in view of the conclusions of the Joint Committee. Without finalising the Bill, we could not finalise the analysis of the costs.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I will give way in a moment, but I want to make a couple of points.

A separate but related fear is that opening up the Lords to election will politicise it, creating a Chamber of career politicians likely to rival MPs and robbing the Lords of its wisdom and expertise. Let us be clear about the current situation. The other place contains some extremely eminent individuals who bring a wealth of knowledge and experience to Parliament, but it is hardly entirely dispassionate, an institution somehow untouched by party politics. More than 70% of its Members receive their peerage from party leaders—that is, more than two thirds of Members take a party Whip, and very few rebel.

Members of the House of Lords are more likely to come from this place than from any other profession, with 189 being ex-MPs. In a reformed House, Members will see themselves and their role very differently from us here, not least because of their longer term and the means by which they elected.

[Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

If this reform goes through, 189 will be people who never managed to become MPs.

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

What the hon. Gentleman misses is that the Bill will in fact make space in Parliament for a different kind of politician. [Interruption.] Let me explain. [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. The right hon. Gentleman must be heard. All this noise just slows up the proceedings. A lot of Members—more than 80—want to speak today, and only a small proportion will do so.

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

What we are doing is what the Joint Committee itself recommended. The Government not only accepted its recommendation that appointed Members should be able to combine membership with a role outside the House, but have extended that principle to elected Members.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I am answering the hon. Member for Gainsborough (Mr Leigh).

The Lords should be a place for people who are public spirited, have political and ideological affiliations and want to serve the country, but who also want to continue to lead a life outside politics. It should be for people who want or need to work and have neither the desire nor the inclination to be an MP. They will not be allowed to leave the Lords and immediately seek election to the Commons, so they will be encouraged to see their time in the House of Lords as their one real chance to make their mark.

[Rory Stewart (Penrith and The Border) (Con)]

The Deputy Prime Minister has spoken a great deal about the Joint Committee and his respect for it. Will he please think again about the central recommendation of both the Joint Committee and the alternative report, which is the necessity for a referendum?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I will not repeat the reasons why I believe a referendum would be unjustified, expensive and a huge distraction from the most important referendum of all, which is on the future of the United Kingdom. However, I will repeat what I said in response to an earlier intervention. If the hon. Gentleman or other Members feel that they need some assurances after the first wave of peers have been elected, so that the second and third stages of reform are subject to some type of trigger, I will of course be prepared to consider that.

The combination of elections by proportional representation, single terms and a specific duty on the appointments commission to consider diversity could encourage more women, more members of black and minority ethnic communities and more people with disabilities to serve.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

May I just make this point? I have been very generous, and I will take more interventions in a moment.

Crucially, the list system will mean that the new membership will be properly representative of all parts of the United Kingdom. Right now, nearly half the Members of the House of Lords are drawn from London and the south-east, whereas only 5% come from the north-west and 2.6% from the north-east. Our proposals will correct that imbalance. Proportionately, the west midlands will see its representation more than double, and for the east midlands it will treble. The Bill has sewn into it the chance to create a richer, more diverse House drawn from many more walks of life.

[Stephen Gilbert (St Austell and Newquay) (LD)]

Does my right hon. Friend not think that people watching this debate will be bemused? Back in 2010, they voted for three parties that had House of Lords reform in their manifesto, yet Back Benchers in some of those parties are now trying to block it. It has been 101 years, and the people voted for it in 2010; let us get on with it.

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I agree with my hon. Friend that, given all the other major challenges that our country faces—particularly the economic and social ones—it is inexplicable to members of the British public that this Bill is the one thing on which opponents want to tie us up in knots for months if not years to come.

[Helen Jones]

The Deputy Prime Minister has referred repeatedly to democratic accountability. Why, then, does he insist that the Lords should be elected by proportional representation when the voters of this country decisively rejected that in a referendum, which he now seeks to deny them?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

Both coalition parties agreed in the coalition agreement that elections to the House of Lords should take place on a proportional basis to ensure that we do not create a carbon copy of the Commons, and to ensure a proper balance of power, reflecting all the different parties and regions of the country in the House of Lords, so that it can play a different role to the Commons, as I am sure the hon. Lady agrees.

[Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)]

Will the Deputy Prime Minister consider an amendment to the programme motion that I have tabled today? It would allow an extra three days’ debate, which would mean that the Committee of the whole House would be one of the longest on constitutional issues? That would allow us to debate the issues in depth, but it would also allow us to get on with the much needed reform of the other place, which is rotten and based on patronage and entitlement.

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I welcome the hon. Lady’s support, hoarsely delivered as it was—she has a cough. It is crucial to wait to hear from the official Opposition what their attitude is to the programme motion. Will they not accept any form of programme motion, or do they have suggestions of their own on the number of days required to deal with the legislation? The Government have been very generous already.

[Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con)]

The Deputy Prime Minister spoke earlier of the need to reform the other place to make it fit for the 21st century. Does he accept that science and technology are very much part of our future? Will he accept an amendment that would mean greater recognition of expert Cross-Bench expertise in engineering, science, technology, maths and medicine? In addition, I am very happy to explain the correct use of the term “lobotomy”.

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

We can have precisely that debate and a multitude of others on the detail of the Bill as long as we make progress on Second Reading and the programme motion this week. As the hon. Lady may well know, the appointments commission envisaged in the Bill will be statutorily required to ensure proper diversity and representation of expertise in the 20% of non-elected peers in a reformed House of Lords.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

Many hon. Members want to make their views known, so I should like to conclude my remarks. I have been very generous in giving way and would now like to make progress.

I shall conclude my speech as I began. There are three reasons to vote in favour of the Bill and its orderly passage: because we believe in democracy, for the sake of better laws, and because reform cannot be ducked. I welcome the reasoned and expert questions, arguments and concerns that I know many Members will raise. I also know that some will not be interested in rational discussion—those who would oppose Lords reform in whatever form, at whatever time and in whatever century, no matter what commitments their parties have made.

This project has always been dogged by those who fear change. What encourages me is that it is being kept alive by those who champion democracy: the reformers and modernisers who believe simply that power belongs in the hands of the people. We have a chance to finish their work. This has been a 100-year long project. Let us now get it done. I commend the Bill to the House.

Deputy Prime Minister

Nick Clegg Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd July 2012 Ministerial Corrections

The following is an extract from the oral statement on the outcomes of the Rio+20 Summit made by the Deputy Prime Minister, the right hon. Member for Sheffield, Hallam (Mr Clegg) on 26 June 2012.

[The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Nick Clegg)]

In summary, although Rio+20 did not go as far as we would have liked, it revived a global commitment to an agenda that has come gravely under threat. Progress was made in the areas where progress needed to be made. The declaration agreed by all 196 countries should not be seen as the upper end of our ambition; it should be our baseline and we should all strive to surpass its expectation. We must build on the steps that were taken to reinvigorate the drive for sustainable development and lasting growth.

[Official Report, 26 June 2012, Vol. 547, c. 162.]

Letter of correction from Nick Clegg:

An error has been identified in the oral statement given on 26 June 2012. The statement should have read:

[The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Nick Clegg)]

In summary, although Rio+20 did not go as far as we would have liked, it revived a global commitment to an agenda that has come gravely under threat. Progress was made in the areas where progress needed to be made. The declaration agreed by over 190 countries should not be seen as the upper end of our ambition; it should be our baseline and we should all strive to surpass its expectation. We must build on the steps that were taken to reinvigorate the drive for sustainable development and lasting growth.

Rio+20 Summit

Nick Clegg Excerpts

Tuesday 26th June 2012 Commons Chamber

[The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Nick Clegg)]

Last week, 196 nations met in Rio, 20 years after the original Earth summit. Our task was to find a way to set the world back on a sustainable path. Important progress had been made in the past two decades on reducing poverty and protecting our environment, but all in all, ambitions had not been met. Our dilemma was to agree ways to grow our economies without hoovering up or destroying our precious natural resources, recognising that our economic and environmental agendas must go hand in hand. Our challenge was to take the right decisions, not just for ourselves, but for the next generation which, in just 18 years, will need 30% more water, 45% more energy, and 50% more food.

Was this summit an unqualified success on all those fronts? No, it was not—but few would have expected it to be. But we did make progress on the key areas that the UK sees as the priority for sustainable development and green growth. I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs for her commendable efforts at the summit itself and for her intensive preparations with the Secretary of State for International Development.

At the summit, the United Kingdom Government played a crucial role in leading on four important shifts. First, while the Rio declaration was not all that we would have wanted, this is the first time that a multilateral document expressing such strong support for the green economy has been agreed. That in itself is a major achievement recognising that, in the long term, greening our economies should not conflict with growing them. The declaration helped to alleviate some of the fears of developing countries that green growth is a veil for a kind of eco-protectionism designed to stymie their development. It united nations behind the simple principle that, as US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton put it at the summit,

“the only viable development is sustainable development which will deliver lasting progress for everyone.”

Secondly, Rio+20 recognised that we need to develop broader measures of progress to complement GDP in order to take account of the natural assets that will contribute to future prosperity—so-called GDP-plus. In the UK we have already committed to including natural capital within our system of national accounts by 2020. We worked hard at the summit to ensure that all nations present recognised the importance of broader measures of environmental and social wealth to complement GDP.

Thirdly, we agreed to set up the sustainable development goals—a concept proposed by Colombia. I was one of the first to welcome this idea when President Santos visited London in November. The UK has been pushing hard to secure agreement ever since, and achieving it, even at this high outline level, was no mean feat. The UN Secretary-General, Ban Ki-moon, said that the SDGs should draw on the success of the millennium development goals and should be an integral part of the post-2015 development framework. We would have liked to see specific themes agreed, focusing on ensuring that everyone can access enough food, energy and water, but getting such agreement was always going to be a huge undertaking. The UK Government will continue to keep up the pressure for rapid agreement. From now on, the process must be coherent and co-ordinated with the work of Secretary-General Ban’s high-level panel on the post-2015 framework, which the Prime Minister will co-chair along with the leaders of Liberia and Indonesia.

Fourthly and finally, at Rio national Governments recognised the importance of working alongside businesses. Thanks in no small part to the leadership of UK firms, Rio recognised the role of corporate sustainability reporting to their shareholders and to prospective investors—something that would have been inconceivable even a year ago. I also announced in Rio that we will be the first country anywhere to mandate large companies to report on their greenhouse gas emissions. A growing number of companies and investors are realising that their own success is directly linked to sustainable, green growth. We hope that the call from all nations for businesses to report their sustainability performance will usher in a new era of transparency and consistency in the global business community.

In summary, although Rio+20 did not go as far as we would have liked, it revived a global commitment to an agenda that has come gravely under threat. Progress was made in the areas where progress needed to be made. The declaration agreed by all 196[Official Report, 3 July 2012, Vol. 547, c. 7-8MC.] countries should not be seen as the upper end of our ambition; it should be our baseline and we should all strive to surpass its expectation. We must build on the steps that were taken to reinvigorate the drive for sustainable development and lasting growth.

The UK played a leading part last week because we are on track to deliver our commitment to spend 0.7% of gross national income on official development assistance to developing countries from 2013; because I announced the adaptation for smallholder agriculture programme, which will improve the lives of more than 6 million smallholder farms; because we are taking the lead in areas such as reproductive health and family planning; because we are the first country whose major businesses will report their greenhouse gas emissions as part of their annual accounts; and because of the range of ways in which we are greening our economy. We will remain committed to working with our partners and will be ambitious for the future. The summit is over but the work continues, and the UK will continue to lead from the front.

[Mary Creagh (Wakefield) (Lab)]

I thank the Deputy Prime Minister for the advance copy of his statement.

The original Rio declaration sought to eradicate poverty, reduce unsustainable production and consumption, and promote greater co-operation to protect the world’s ecosystems. It is as relevant today as it was 20 years ago. Expectations were low for this summit, and those expectations were met. I pay tribute to the Deputy Prime Minister and the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, who worked as part of the EU delegation to prevent the summit from reaching abject failure.

There was a glimmer of hope. Ban Ki-moon’s zero hunger challenge aims for a future in which everyone enjoys their basic human right to food and in which global food systems are resilient. It aims to provide access to adequate food all year round, increase small farm productivity and see zero waste of food. We welcome the UK’s contribution of £150 million to help meet the zero hunger challenge.

Will curbing land grabs by large companies and improving land rights, especially for women, be on the agenda of the high-level meeting on hunger that will take place during the Olympics? What does the Deputy Prime Minister make of the Prime Minister’s comments yesterday that a future Conservative Government would consider handing out some state benefits “in kind” rather than in cash? Does he think that handing out food vouchers to the poor is a good idea, when the Brazilian zero hunger scheme was based on the Bolsa Família, which gave money directly to families in poverty and let them choose how best to feed their children? How will the zero hunger initiative tackle food poverty in the UK, where the Trussell Trust charity estimates that it will feed 130,000 people this year, 45,000 of whom are children?

The Deputy Prime Minister mentioned that the Prime Minister, alongside the Presidents of Liberia and Indonesia, will co-chair a new UN committee to establish a new set of millennium development goals to follow those that expire in 2015. How will the new goals relate to the sustainable development goals that will emerge from Rio?

There was progress in the field of energy, with the Secretary-General’s sustainable energy for all initiative, which received pledges of $323 billion in funding to bring clean energy to more than a billion people in developing countries. We welcome that. We also welcome the Deputy Prime Minister’s announcement at Rio that the UK will introduce carbon reporting for 1,800 quoted companies from April next year, as set out in Labour’s landmark Climate Change Act 2008. That was, sadly, the weakest option that the Government consulted on. It creates the anomaly that British Airways will report its carbon footprint as a public company, but that Virgin Atlantic, as a private company, will not. However, we are the first country in the world to do it, which gives us a temporary, green competitive advantage to make up for the Government’s disastrous handling of the solar feed-in tariffs.

The agreements on biodiversity, oceans and the trade in endangered species are welcome. However, the Government have refused to guarantee funding for the UK’s wildlife crime unit after next April. Does he agree that that unit is on the front line of fighting the illegal trade in endangered species, and will he argue for its benefits at the heart of Government?

Sharing the benefits of the planet’s biodiversity equally is an important building block for what happens after Rio, yet the Government have still not ratified the Nagoya protocol, which was agreed last year, on access to and benefits from genetic resources. What assessment has he made of the action we need to take to comply with the protocol, and will the Government show leadership in the EU by ratifying it?

We know that sustainable development starts at home. Far too often, the Government have been found wanting—they abolished the Sustainable Development Commission and failed to introduce marine protected areas, and their implementation of their forests policy was disastrous. Will the Deputy Prime Minister therefore tell the House how the Government will change how they do business to reflect the Rio conference outcomes?

Will the Government publish a UK action plan as a framework for the changes that they seek after Rio? Does the Deputy Prime Minister agree with his right hon. Friends the Secretaries of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, for International Development and for the Foreign Office that the Government need to invest more in a resource-efficient economy and low-carbon jobs to reduce costs and protect the UK from rising oil prices and energy dependency?

The Deputy Prime Minister should be in no doubt that the Opposition will work with him across party boundaries to achieve the long-term solutions that our planet needs. Rio showed that the solutions to ending hunger and deforestation, and to securing clean energy and water for the poorest, are all out there. We just need to scale them up.

The scientists tell us we must act now and businesses stand ready to play their part. The tragedy is that the politicians did not agree concrete mechanisms by which those things can happen, but as the Deputy Prime Minister has said, Rio was not a destination but a milestone on a long road. We stand ready to support the Government to make the change we need to deliver the future we want.

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I thank the hon. Lady for her recognition of what I think is our shared commitment to the agenda discussed at Rio. I totally share her support for the zero hunger initiative; I attended a session in Rio at which the initiative was discussed. She asked about the hunger summit that will be held this summer. I do not know the precise agenda, but she referred to the importance of legal rights to property and land, which are crucial to dealing with hunger sustainably.

The hon. Lady asked about the interaction between sustainable development goals, ill-defined though they were at the Rio summit, and the work on the post-2015 agenda. The Government’s strong view is that the sustainable development goals as defined by the group of 30 representatives, which will be established in September, must feed into the wider review of the millennium development goals through the high-level panel that has been established by the Secretary-General.

I will not disguise from the hon. Lady the fact that within that procedural complexity, there are a lot of sensitivities. Candidly, some developing countries have hitherto felt that their voice is not strongly enough heard in some UN processes. The Prime Minister and his co-chairs will work hard to ensure that the voices of the developing world are properly listened to in the review of the MDGs to allay the concern that precisely the part of the world that will benefit most from the process is shut out from it. We need to do quite of lot of work to ensure that the different acronyms and processes do not start becoming rival acronyms and process—that is a danger.

The hon. Lady mentioned the sustainable energy for all initiative, which I am glad she supports; it is an outstanding initiative. I hosted a preparatory meeting of the group on the initiative in London some months ago. We had hoped that the Rio declaration would adopt the initiative as a core conclusion. In the event, because of the nervousness of some participants on what the initiative means and its implications, it was “recognised” in the declaration. We would have inserted a stronger verb, but none the less, as with all those initiatives, we now need to exploit that recognition and work on it.

The hon. Lady complained that the proposal on greenhouse gas emissions reporting does not go far enough. We have to start somewhere. We are the only country doing this. Some people complain that we have already gone too far and are imposing too many burdens on business. Other business groups, such as the CBI, have welcomed the proposal. I think we are breaking new ground, and I hope she will welcome that rather than cast aspersions on it.

The hon. Lady will know that the Darwin initiative is a robust initiative that we are using to monitor the plight of endangered species. Finally, she rightly said that these summits make sense only if one acts consistently with them at home. We are rightly proud of our record: we are the first country to establish a green investment bank; the green deal, which will be up and running in the coming six to eight months or so, will be the largest initiative of its kind for installing energy efficiency measures and bringing down energy bills in homes up and down the country; and the green sector, the green economy, is growing by about 5% a year, employs close to 1 million people in this country and actually runs a trade surplus. That is something we should cherish and celebrate. The carbon floor price is another major innovation of the Government, while the electricity market reform, which is one of the most ambitious legislative and regulatory overhauls of an electricity market I am aware of anywhere in the developed world, is explicitly designed to ensure that we have a sustainable energy mix for future generations.

[Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)]

I congratulate everyone involved on what was a genuine team effort. Will the Deputy Prime Minister assure the House that one of Rio’s lasting legacies will be the agreement to reaffirm a universal, open, non-discriminatory and equitable multilateral trading system for food and agricultural products? Will he give an undertaking that we will really push for Doha to deliver this through the World Trade Organisation?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

No one is in any doubt that one of the greatest boosts to prosperity across the world would be a successful completion of the very, very, very, very long-awaited Doha development round. It is immensely frustrating that getting agreement on it has proved so elusive. Many have written it off altogether, and it is difficult not to be pessimistic about it, but that does not mean that we should not continue to pursue the cause of multilateral trade liberalisation.

[Mr Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab)]

Given the frustratingly disappointing outcome of Rio and the crisis of investor confidence in solar PV, onshore wind and nuclear in Britain, is it not even more important that the Deputy Prime Minister joins the growing cross-party support for the Severn barrage, which would generate 5% of the electricity in Britain and create nearly 40,000 jobs—a green project that will deliver the Government’s renewable energy commitments?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I pay tribute to the fervour with which the right hon. Gentleman is throwing himself into this new cause in a political career of many great causes. I agree with the underlying assertion that for investors to make investments in major energy infrastructure of whatever kind, they need long-term stability and long-term certainty about the direction of Government policy. That is precisely what the electricity market reform aims to provide.

[Zac Goldsmith (Richmond Park) (Con)]

Despite the prominence given before the conference to protecting the world’s oceans in the face of the ongoing collapse in world fish stocks and the continued obliteration of coastal livelihoods, it has been widely reported that the concrete steps put forward were effectively blocked by Russia, Canada and the US. Is that true? If not, what specific steps were agreed?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

In many ways, it is actually more dispiriting than the hon. Gentleman suggests, because we did not manage to get any agreement on any of the themes governing the sustainable development goals. Sensibly, perhaps, in view of the dynamics at Rio, that has been left for the working group in September. On the plus side, from his point of view, the text reflects the importance of oceans and their sustainable use, and I would be surprised if oceans did not feature prominently in the final shape of the sustainable development goals as they are crafted in the months and years ahead.

[Dame Joan Ruddock (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab)]

The Deputy Prime Minister will have heard my hon. Friend the Member for Wakefield (Mary Creagh) mention the Nagoya protocol, which, as he knows, has not been ratified. He knows how important it is to access and benefit sharing. Will he undertake to meet his EU counterparts in order to move forward the EU position on this matter, which is truly critical?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

We certainly want to see full ratification of the Nagoya protocol. It is something that this country has done, and I know that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs is working with her counterparts in the European Union to encourage those who have not yet taken the necessary steps to do so. To make one observation, the Nagoya protocol flowed from the original Rio+20 summit, but it was not agreed at that summit. The only reason why I make that point is that, for those who say that an insufficient number of legal texts were agreed this time around, it is worth recalling that the history of the last Rio+20 summit was that, while it was much more substantive than this one, it did lead and create a momentum that subsequently led to legal texts. I say to those who have responded with complete despair about this summit that it is now a matter of what we do with it and whether we can turn it into legally binding documents, which is the challenge for the future.

[Mr Peter Lilley (Hitchin and Harpenden) (Con)]

Within the privacy of this Chamber, will the Deputy Prime Minister admit that Rio actually showed that it is now blindingly obvious that no other major country proposes to follow us in imposing a legally binding obligation to cut emissions by 80% at a cost of £430 billion to our economy, so we should discreetly shelve the Climate Change Act 2008 as soon as possible?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

My understanding is that Mexico has done just that, just now, so it is not right to say that countries are not seeking to follow our lead. In my bilateral discussions with members of the Brazilian Government, I was struck by how forceful they were, as a major emerging economic power, in expressing the view that their own future success would be defined by their ability to grow sustainably, which would require a departure from simply copying how development has been pursued in the past. I am afraid that I do not share the right hon. Gentleman’s pessimism about the virtues of, and potential for, sustainable growth in the future.

[Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)]

The final text from the Rio summit effectively sells out the vision of a green economy by replacing the usual phrase “sustainable development” or even “sustainable growth” with a phrase of a quite different meaning—“sustained economic growth”. Given that Kenneth Boulding has famously written:

“Anyone who believes exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist”,

will the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether the problem at Rio was too many madmen or too many economists?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I will not choose which. I think the hon. Lady is selecting somewhat partially from a mammoth text, which refers to “sustainable growth” and “sustainable development” throughout and in almost every paragraph. She has been a little partial in her selection of those two phrases. The whole assumption behind Rio was an overt recognition that it is senseless, and unfair on future generations, our children and our grandchildren, to grow today and clean up later. That fundamental development dilemma, whereby development is pursued at the cost of the sustainable use of resources, was at the heart of Rio thinking before the summit and during it, and it must remain part of our thinking subsequent to the summit as well.

[Simon Wright (Norwich South) (LD)]

The agreement at Rio for a new high-level political forum on sustainable development could provide the leadership that has been lacking in the past for the implementation of declarations and action plans. Will the UK Government do all they can to ensure that the new forum has a wide agenda, a clear mandate to act and high-level political backing?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

Yes; I think there is great potential for that forum to do good work. Given that all these forums are working on agendas to which we have made a great commitment as a Government, we will remain committed to their successful work.

[Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Lab)]

In thanking the Deputy Prime Minister and the Secretary of State for their work at Rio and notwithstanding the outcome, will the right hon. Gentleman commit to an early appearance before the Environmental Audit Committee, so that all the different strands of all the different groups that want urgent action now, but did not get that reflected in the high-level agreement, and this UK Parliament and its legislators, can map out a way of taking urgent action and ensuring that it is followed up?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I thank the hon. Lady for her invitation, and I will think about it carefully. I know that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has attended her Select Committee. She is right, of course, to say that the Committee plays a crucial role in mobilising the opinions of many groups—non-governmental organisations and others—which take an interest all this. I hope that she recognises—as I know she was there—that the Government made considerable efforts to talk to all those groups on an ongoing basis, notwithstanding their evident disappointment in the outcome of the summit, and we will of course continue to do so.

[Paul Uppal (Wolverhampton South West) (Con)]

There is great news about the economic development of sub-Saharan Africa, which is a possible portent for the future but is also a double-edged sword, because that development is built on the back of natural and mineral resources. Can my right hon. Friend assure me that the UK will continue to take a lead on sustainability, and will tackle concerns about eco-protectionism head-on?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

That is one of the issues that were raised forcefully by many of the leaders from Africa. I had a meeting with President Meles of Ethiopia, who is a leading thinker on all these matters. He recognises, in a way that I think is pretty far-sighted, that notwithstanding the challenges that his people now face, he will be doing a disservice to them and, indeed, to future generations of Ethiopians if they do not use the resources that are available to them in a sustainable fashion.

[Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab)]

The hon. Member for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith) was right to identify as particularly depressing the total failure to make any progress on the second biggest environmental issue that affects us—the need to protect our marine environment—but would not Britain have more credibility in terms of leadership if we were not already two years behind in establishing our own network of marine protected areas, and if the Government had not drastically reduced their number so as to render them almost useless?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I think that it was right for us to take the extra time to secure a firm evidence base in regard to those areas. We are not abandoning the agenda; we are trying to do our job as thoroughly and rigorously as I know the right hon. Gentleman would expect.

[Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con)]

The UK hit the Kyoto targets, while a number of our leading European Union competitors signed up with a fanfare but came nowhere near hitting them. Is there any sign now that those European big energy-using countries will do better in the future?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

My own view is that any developed economy will serve itself best by moving towards an energy mix that is diverse, sustainable, and not over-reliant on unreliable forms of energy and very volatile global prices. I think it is a good thing that we have been leading that agenda in this country while also meeting our Kyoto targets. Those activities are not inconsistent with each other, and I personally rebut the idea that a shift of that kind is incompatible with highly competitive economies.

[Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)]

I welcome the frankness with which the Deputy Prime Minister delivered his statement on the outcomes of Rio, which were not what we could all have wished for. I think he recognises that one of the real strengths of the processes surrounding Rio is what is happening at national level. In that context, would he care to comment on the success of the world summit of legislators, which was held during the weekend before the high-level session, and on the progress that was achieved there at national level? He referred to Mexico, but there has also been progress relating to natural capital, the marine environment and deforestation.

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman for his work in GLOBE International, the world legislators’ forum. It was very helpful to me in Rio to listen to his views about the work of that body. I strongly agree with him: I think that some Governments and Parliaments sometimes struggle to know exactly what legislative steps they should take in this regard. The establishment of best practice for them, via GLOBE, on a range of sustainable development issues can serve as an important catalyst to ensure they do not just talk the talk, but walk the walk.

[Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)]

I congratulate my right hon. Friend and his ministerial team on pushing the summit further than I suspect it would have gone without them, although the outcomes themselves were very modest. Does he agree, however, that although binding agreements and legislation were never going to be part of the final outcome, we should welcome the fact that the summit put genuine sustainability back on to the agenda, and also set out a vision for its delivery?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

Yes. The breakthrough, conceptual though it is and not concrete enough, is that 196 countries are saying overtly and explicitly, “We think development needs to be resource-sustainable and we want to craft sustainable development goals.” However, in a sense, this is a concept without sufficient content. The test of whether it will be looked back on as a complete wash-out or a great triumph is what we then do with that outline concept, and whether we have the political will to use the mechanisms that have been established—not least the group that will start work in December—to flesh out the content and feed that into the wider review of the millennium development goals as they are reviewed and strengthened in the post-2015 framework.

[Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP)]

The Deputy Prime Minister has been very candid about the limitations of the declaration from Rio, but he urges us to strive to surpass his expectation. Does he any specific ideas about what the UK might do in this respect? In particular, has he thought about following the Scottish Government’s example of establishing a climate justice fund?

--- Later in debate ---

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

As the hon. Gentleman may know, we have not only set an international precedent by, for instance, announcing that some of the largest companies will be abiding by new greenhouse gas emission reporting requirements; we are also setting the pace by moving towards what I referred to in my statement as GDP-plus by 2020, whereby we do not just take a snapshot of our nation’s wealth and prosperity, but try to include in that new measures of the resources we are using and their sustainability. We have established a natural capital committee, chaired by Professor Dieter Helm, which I think is the first of its kind. Those are not only institutional but methodological innovations that are genuinely world beating, and I very much hope that other countries will follow our lead.

[Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)]

Does the Deputy Prime Minister agree with Mr Kandeh Yumkella, the joint head of the United Nations “sustainable energy for all” initiative, who said:

“You can’t save the forest if you don’t have gas”?

Consequently, this country ought to expedite the use of our shale gas reserves in order to reduce domestic energy prices.

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

As the hon. Gentleman may know, the Chancellor announced at the Budget that we would be developing a gas strategy. Our overall approach to energy policy as a Government is to make sure that the sources of energy we rely on are as diverse and sustainable as possible, and clearly, gas plays an important role in that. That is why we are committed to producing this new gas strategy.

[Mark Hendrick (Preston) (Lab/Co-op)]

The Deputy Prime Minister referred in his statement to the commitment to providing 0.7% of GNI for development assistance. All three major political parties would like to put that commitment into law. Why, therefore, did the International Development Secretary—he is in his place next to the right hon. Gentleman—categorically refuse point blank to support my private Member’s Bill? Members of both parties in the coalition have said that they will support the Bill, and doing so would save parliamentary time and get it through sooner, rather than later.

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

As the hon. Gentleman knows, the response to his private Member’s Bill is a matter for the House. I should point out to him that if he attaches such significance to legislating on this issue, why on earth did his party not do it in 13 years in office? We are very clear that we will be delivering our commitment to allocate 0.7% of GNI from next year, and that we will legislate as soon as we possibly can.

[Mr Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con)]

Across the world at national level, legislators are effecting environmental change and improvement, even as intergovernmental processes stall. Further to the Deputy Prime Minister’s reply to the hon. Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner), will he support the GLOBE world summit of legislators process going forward, so that, from Mexico to China in the past, and other countries in the future, we can see action today, rather than words at summits?

--- Later in debate ---

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

As I explained in my meeting in Rio, I am intuitively a big supporter of GLOBE, as I think it is far better if these summits are not just a get together of Presidents, Prime Ministers, Deputy Prime Ministers and Ministers, but involve legislators; they should not just be a great big club of the Executive. The more we can involve legislators and Parliaments, the more we can guarantee that action is subsequently taken. I am very happy to look at ways in which the Government could provide more support, in as much as we can, to the excellent work that GLOBE has already undertaken.

[Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)]

Following Rio+20, I am sure that we all agree that fine words need to be backed up with practical actions, so could the Deputy Prime Minister tell me what safeguards his Government will put in place to ensure that, with the growing number of biomass-fuelled power plants, imported biomass material comes from genuinely sustainable sources and is not contributing to deforestation and loss of biodiversity?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

My understanding is that there are European Union standards that seek to ensure that the biomass industry adheres to basic environmental standards, but it is one industry of many in which this Government are keen to ensure that there is more, rather than less, investment, in order that we get the diverse mix of energy sources and energy generation that I referred to earlier.

[Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD)]

I commend my right hon. Friend and the Secretary of State on the positive stand taken by Britain in Rio, but given the lack of any landmark agreements comparable to the original Earth summit, how can Britain now promote rapid, timetabled agreement on issues such as GDP-plus and the sustainable development goals?

--- Later in debate ---

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

The SDGs, which are the core commitment at Rio, do have fairly clear procedural timetables; a group of 30 representatives will be established in September, and the UN Secretary-General has been clear that that must feed into the wider post-2015 millennium development goals process. There is a pretty clear process. However, we just have to recognise that a summit in a world where power is shifting to different hemispheres and different continents is different from one that took place 20 years ago. Brazil now has authority and clout on the international stage that it did not have then; the G77 is organised as a caucus of developing countries, which was not quite the case 20 years ago, and they are rightly more demanding that their voice and voices should be heard. That is reflected in the more diverse push and pull that we witnessed at the Rio summit.

[Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/Co-op)]

One of the areas of disappointment was the failure to move forward on measures to improve access to water and sanitation for the many millions in the world who do not have that. Given that, and given that I know the Government are committed to that objective, what steps will they take in other international bodies to try to promote the objective of improving access to water and sanitation throughout the world?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I agree with the hon. Gentleman that that is one of the most important issues, as we see from the shocking and scandalous figures on the number of children and women, in particular, who have died because of poor sanitation and restricted access to clean water. It was one of three themes—food, water and energy—that we had hoped would be defined in greater detail under the rubric of the sustainable development goals at Rio. We will continue to push to do that as they are defined in greater detail in the months ahead.

Deputy Prime Minister

Nick Clegg Excerpts

Thursday 24th May 2012 Ministerial Corrections

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

T12. The Deputy Prime Minister has been quoted in the media as saying, rightly in my opinion, that social mobility will take a long time to change, so why, on coming to power in May 2010, did he agree to the reduction or elimination of measures such as the education maintenance allowance and Sure Start long before their long-term effects could be judged?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

As I hope the hon. Lady knows, we have protected the money for Sure Start, but there is, I acknowledge, greater discretion for local authorities to decide how to use it. I am aware of 10 outright closures of Sure Start centres across the country, and of course it is important to know why local authorities have taken those decisions. I hope that she is also aware of the extra investment that we are now putting in, particularly for early years—for children even before they go to school. We know from the evidence that that makes the most dramatic difference for subsequent social mobility. As of April next year, 40% of all two-year-olds in this country, including all two-year-olds from the most disadvantaged families, will receive for the first time 15 hours of free pre-school support.

[Official Report, 22 May 2012, Vol. 545, c. 980.]

Letter of correction from Nick Clegg:

An error has been identified in the oral answer given on 22 May 2012 to the hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore).

The correct answer should have been:

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

As I hope the hon. Lady knows, we have protected the money for Sure Start, but there is, I acknowledge, greater discretion for local authorities to decide how to use it. I am aware of 10 outright closures of Sure Start centres across the country, and of course it is important to know why local authorities have taken those decisions. I hope that she is also aware of the extra investment that we are now putting in, particularly for early years—for children even before they go to school. We know from the evidence that that makes the most dramatic difference for subsequent social mobility. As of 2014, 40% of all two-year-olds in this country, including all two-year-olds from the most disadvantaged families, will receive for the first time 15 hours of free pre-school support.

Oral Answers to Questions

Nick Clegg Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd May 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mark Lancaster (Milton Keynes North) (Con)]

5. What plans he has to bring forward legislative proposals on the rules governing succession to the Crown.

[The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Nick Clegg)]

We are working closely with the New Zealand Government to secure the agreement of all the Commonwealth realms to the introduction of UK primary legislation on royal succession. Legislation will be introduced once we have secured this agreement and when parliamentary time allows.

[Mrs Grant]

If the birds and the bees of the romantic Isle of Anglesey were to conspire and bless our future King of England and his wife with the patter of tiny feet before this law was enacted, and if that royal baby turned out to be a little girl, would she succeed to the throne?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

If the birds and the bees were to deliver that blessing to the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge—and, indeed, the nation as a whole—that little girl would be covered by these provisions and changes to the rules of succession, because they operate as from the time of the declaration at the Commonwealth summit last October. It is important to remember that the rules are de facto in place, even though de jure they still need to be implemented through legislation in the way I have described.

[Mark Lancaster]

Will the Deputy Prime Minister confirm that there are no plans to change the requirement for the monarch to be a communicant of the Church of England?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

There are no plans whatsoever.

[Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)]

In the interests of democracy and dragging the monarchy and the office of Head of State into the 21st century, can it be arranged for the new Bill to permit alternative candidates to stand as Head of State, given the misgivings about King Charles III?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

The hon. Gentleman mentions what sounds like another attempt to resurrect the alternative vote system, which I do not think was greeted with universal acclaim last year and would not apply in this area either. More seriously, I do not think he should belittle the enormity of this change. We are getting rid of some very long-standing, discriminatory anomalies on male primogeniture and the rule preventing heirs to the throne from marrying—uniquely among all religions—Roman Catholics. That is real progress that has not been achieved in a long time.

[Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)]

3. What assessment he has made of the effect of his proposals on House of Lords reform on the relationship between the two Houses.

[The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Nick Clegg)]

The Government believe that the primacy of the House of Commons will be maintained. We accept, of course, that the conventions and agreements between the two Houses will continue to adapt and evolve, but this is compatible with the continued primacy of the House of Commons. I stress that this is not only the view of the Government; the majority of the Joint Committee on the Draft House of Lords Reform Bill said that the current basis

“on which Commons primacy rests would suffice to ensure its continuation”.

[Mark Durkan]

The Deputy Prime Minister will hear many Members wax precious about the primacy of this Chamber, but this Whip-tamed Chamber spends far less time considering legislation and has a poor rate of success with amendments. Is there not something pathetic about self-respecting democratic legislators having to rely on the fact that another House is unelected to claim legitimate primacy?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I share the hon. Gentleman’s view that, although some concerns about the primacy of the House of Commons need to be taken seriously, some are overstated, not least because the changes that we published in our draft Bill would mean that, because the other place would be elected in instalments, it would never have a more recent, fresher democratic mandate than Members sitting in this place. When combined with other differences of mandate, constituency and so forth, that approach will ensure that the relationship between the two continues to guarantee the primacy of this place.

[Mrs Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con)]

It is interesting that the Deputy Prime Minister quoted selectively from the Joint Committee report. That report also stated:

“We concur…that Clause 2 of the draft Bill is not capable…of preserving the primacy of the House of Commons.”

Does he accept that?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I accept that the Joint Committee received evidence, particularly from Lords Pannick and Goldsmith, suggesting that the two Parliament Acts should be incorporated and reflected in clause 2 to clarify this issue of primacy beyond doubt. We are actively considering that and all the Joint Committee’s recommendations.

[Meg Munn (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab/Co-op)]

Would it not have been sensible to start out by looking at the powers and responsibilities of the second House first, rather than just continuing as we are?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

It is important to stress that the Joint Committee did not make that suggestion, and neither have a succession of cross-party committees and commissions over the last several years. All of them have agreed that there is nothing incompatible about increasing the legitimacy of the other place, on the basis of the very simple, uncontroversial principle that the people who make the laws of the land should be elected by the people who obey the laws of the land, and that this matter should in no way need to wait for a wider discussion on the respective powers of the two places.

[Mike Crockart (Edinburgh West) (LD)]

Given that we are now part of a multicultural and polytheistic society, does my right hon. Friend agree that now is the time to remove bishops from the House of Lords, rather than increasing the proportion of seats that they would hold?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I know there are strongly held views on this issue, as on many issues to do with reform of the other place. The balanced approach that we took as a Government in the draft Bill was to reduce the number of bishops from 26 to 12, but not to remove them altogether.

[Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab)]

I thank the Deputy Prime Minister for the way in which he answered those questions. How soon does he expect to be able to publish the Bill, and how many days does he think it is reasonable for MPs to have to debate it?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

We hope to publish the Bill well before the summer recess. The amount of time that would be allocated to it would be the subject of discussion through the usual channels and then a possible timetable vote in the House of Commons.

[Amber Rudd (Hastings and Rye) (Con)]

4. What steps he is taking to improve the completeness and accuracy of the electoral register.

--- Later in debate ---

[Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab)]

8. What his policy is on upholding the principle of accountability in a reformed House of Lords.

[The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Nick Clegg)]

Members of a wholly or mainly elected reformed second Chamber will serve long non-renewable terms. Non-renewable terms of three electoral cycles have been a feature of cross-party reform proposals since they were agreed over a decade ago by the Wakeham commission in January 2000. This is why the idea was reflected in the draft Bill. It has since been endorsed by the Joint Committee, and we expect to maintain it in the Bill shortly to be brought before Parliament.

[Steve Rotheram]

It appears that the Deputy Prime Minister has the anti-Midas touch and that great opportunities for lasting constitutional reform have been squandered because of poor political judgment. What is the Deputy Prime Minister’s rationale for believing that those 15-year non-renewable terms for the second Chamber will renew democratic accountability? As a result, will Lords reform simply be another failed Lib-Dem coalition policy?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I know that the hon. Gentleman meticulously wrote his question before he listened to the initial answer, so perhaps he will listen to this one. As I said in my first answer, the idea of three non-renewable terms is not something invented by this coalition Government or the Joint Committee; it was first identified on a cross-party basis over a decade ago. That is why—quite sensibly, in the name of consensus and in pursuit of real reform—we are maintaining that proposal now.

[Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) (Con)]

If we are to have real reform of the House of Lords and to restore trust in politics, not only should the House of Lords be largely elected, but is it not now time to send the ermine up the motorway to one of our great northern cities, such as Manchester or Sheffield?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

That is an excellent idea. We will include this novel proposal in our thinking. On a more serious note, all three main parties put before the country in May 2010 manifestos that committed us all collectively to House of Lords reform. If we are to honour our manifesto commitments, I think we should proceed quickly and swiftly.

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

Can the Deputy Prime Minister explain why so few of his own party’s Members in the House of Lords support his proposals? Indeed, Lord Ashdown is almost a lone voice. What is the explanation for that?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

The power of a whiff of ermine on people’s opinions on reform of the House of Lords has never failed to amaze me. All I can say is that the manifesto commitments of the hon. Gentleman’s party, my party and the Conservative party were clearly in favour of completing this century-long debate on the reform of the other place. I think we should now get on with it.

[Laura Sandys (South Thanet) (Con)]

When the Bill is published, will it come with a financial assessment of what will happen to the House of Lords if we do not reform it, and of what will happen once we get to, say, 2020, when we will have to equalise every time there is a change of government in this place?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

We will, of course, publish the financial implications. The hon. Lady is right to highlight an issue that has not been given sufficient attention—how unsustainable the status quo is. Are people really comfortable with a second Chamber that will soon be composed of 1,000 or more members, in which more than 70% are there through nothing more than political patronage and in which they receive £300 tax-free just for turning up?

[Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)]

Given that the House of Lords is often seen as a lifeboat for ailing political careers, so that there are vested interests in this place that are very much against reform, will the Deputy Prime Minister lead by example and guarantee that, in the event of his attempts at reform being unsuccessful, he will not take up a seat in the Lords?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I certainly hope that my reform proposals will be successful.

[Mr Speaker]

I call Mr Peter Bone.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

Ample time will be allowed, but we should keep this in proportion. This is not something that the vast majority of people in the country care about a great deal. That does not mean that the Government cannot do more than one thing at once, and I have to say to those, perhaps including the hon. Gentleman, who want to block up all parliamentary business because they object to this simple reform that the burden is on them to explain why they want to protect an unsustainable and indefensible status quo.

[Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab)]

T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

[The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Nick Clegg)]

As Deputy Prime Minister, I support the Prime Minister on the full range of Government policies and initiatives. I take special responsibility for the Government’s programme of political and constitutional reform, including reform of party funding. Let me briefly update the House on that issue. I wrote to party leaders in February asking them to nominate representatives for cross-party discussions on party funding. Meetings took place on 11 and 30 April. Representatives are meeting again today, and will hold a further discussion next week.

We all know the parameters. This is not about reinventing the wheel. The Kelly report provides a sound basis for agreement. We simply need to demonstrate the political will to make progress, and I hope and expect that to be possible before the summer recess.

[Ann McKechin]

This week the Deputy Prime Minister spoke of the wasted talent in the country caused by the lack of social mobility, and I concur with his comments. However, given the direct link between poverty and some of the indicators that he will be using, such as birth weight, why are the Government pursuing cuts in tax credits and benefits, which will simply lead to more children living below the poverty line?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

As the hon. Lady knows, our welfare reforms are based on the simple principle of ensuring that work always pays. That is what these controversial reforms are about, and that is what universal credit is about. For years and years under Labour the welfare budget ballooned and the incentive to work diminished. That is what we are seeking to change through our welfare reforms.

[Anna Soubry (Broxtowe) (Con)]

T2. People in Broxtowe will have been pleased by today’s news that inflation has come down. What other measures does the Deputy Prime Minister think the Government should be taking to help hard-pressed families throughout the country?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I think it is significant that in one week we have seen the release of official statistics showing that both unemployment and inflation are down, and today we have heard from the IMF that the policy prescription that we are pursuing is exactly the right one to repair the mess left by the Labour party. There are many reforms that we need to introduce, but one that I would highlight is a simpler, fairer tax system. Because of the tax reforms that we have introduced, as of next April more than 2 million people with low earnings will be paying no income tax whatsoever.

[Ms Harriet Harman (Camberwell and Peckham) (Lab)]

It has been a bad week for the Germans. First they are beaten by Chelsea, and then they get an economics lecture from the Deputy Prime Minister. Can he tell us why he is qualified to lecture anyone about economic policy when his Government have left us with a double-dip recession and 1 million young people looking for work?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

The right hon. and learned Lady must be suffering from amnesia. Does she not remember how her Government sucked up to the City of London, went on a prawn cocktail offensive which let the banks off the hook and presided over increases in youth unemployment year after year after 2004, the biggest peacetime deficit ever seen in this country, and the largest decline in manufacturing—even larger than the decline in the 1980s? That is Labour’s record, and I am proud of the fact that we are trying to fix the mess that she left behind.

[Ms Harman]

When we left office, the economy was growing and unemployment was falling. Today the Deputy Prime Minister has been prancing around preaching about social mobility, which is frankly ludicrous when he is cutting tax credits for low-income families, providing a tax cut for millionaires, and scrapping an important measure designed to narrow the gap between rich and poor, namely clause 1 of the Equality Act 2010. It is always the same with this Deputy Prime Minister: he says one thing and does another. For all the difference that he makes in Government, he might as well be chillaxing or beating his own record at Fruit Ninja.

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

That was laboured even by the standards of the right hon. and learned Lady. She referred to the upper rate of income tax, and she is ranting and railing against the new 45p rate that we will introduce next April. Perhaps she can answer a simple question. Why did the Labour party maintain a lower tax rate of 40p in the pound for upper-rate earners for the 12 years and 11 months for which they were in office? I know that the right hon. and learned Lady does not like the 45p rate; perhaps she wants to advocate the rate that she maintained for most of her time in office.

Just today, Christine Lagarde of the International Monetary Fund that

“when I think back myself to May 2010, when the UK deficit was at 11%”

—that was Labour’s gift to us—

“and I try to imagine what the situation would be like today if no such fiscal consolidation programme had been decided…I shiver”.

That is a judgment on the legacy of the right hon. and learned Lady.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)]

T4. Can the Deputy Prime Minister confirm that House of Lords reform was in the manifestos of all three main political parties, and does he agree that it is absolutely right and proper that politicians should now keep to their promise and enact this much-needed reform?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

Yes, I strongly agree that, as I have said, we should just get on with reforming the House of Lords with the minimum of fuss. I ask those who want to hold the whole of Government and parliamentary business hostage on this matter why on earth they think it is such a priority for the country that that business should be brought to a standstill. Given those manifesto commitments, we should work on a cross-party basis to finally complete reform of the House of Lords.

[Mr Speaker]

Barry Gardiner. Not here. I call Kate Green.

[Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab)]

T5. I did not hear the Deputy Prime Minister say anything about ethnic inequalities in his speech on social mobility this morning, yet black youth unemployment is twice that of white British young people, ethnic minorities are under-represented in apprenticeships and although increasing numbers are entering higher education, they are more likely to attend less prestigious universities. If the Deputy Prime Minister is serious about social mobility, does he agree that we need targeted policies to address ethnic inequalities in education and employment?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I certainly agree with the hon. Lady’s characterisation of the problem for many young people in our black and minority ethnic communities. It is one of the reasons why I have commissioned some work to look at the strong anecdotal evidence that it seems to be harder for young black and minority ethnic entrepreneurs to secure loans from banks on the same reasonable rates as others. That is just one issue among many that we need to address. However, I draw the hon. Lady’s attention to the fact that the targeted interventions that we are delivering—£8 billion on pre-school support for two, three and four-year-olds, a new free pre-school support package for all disadvantaged two-year-olds as of April next year, the pupil premium and so on —disproportionately benefit those who are disadvantaged in the communities to which she refers.

[Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con)]

T11. Last week we had some fantastic news: 700 new jobs at Ellesmere Port Vauxhall factory, making the new generation of Astras. Does the Deputy Prime Minister agree that that is a fantastic example of how flexible working can help rebalance the economy in the United Kingdom?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I strongly agree. That was a very important moment, as it underlines something that has been quietly building for some time: a real return to form for British manufacturing. The fact that as a country we are now exporting more cars than we are importing for the first time since the 1970s shows that, notwithstanding all the anxieties and concerns about the economic situation generally, this is an area of emerging strength for Britain.

[Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab)]

T6. May I refer the Deputy Prime Minister to an answer he gave a few moments ago, and ask whether he is aware that figures have been placed in the House of Commons Library this morning showing that public sector debt has risen from £12,500 per head in May 2010 to £16,200 per head in April 2012? Is this figure—[Interruption.] It’s higher. Is this higher figure a result of the Deputy Prime Minister having taken his eye off the ball by concentrating on Lords reform instead of getting on with jobs and growth and getting our 1 million young people back to work?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

The reason for those figures is the shocking state of the public finances left by Labour. Today’s IMF report very precisely identified three reasons why the British economy still faces real headwinds: first, increasing global commodity prices last year, which was not something we could control; secondly, the uncertainties of the eurozone, which is also not under our control; and thirdly, the hangover of monumental public and private debt, which was, indeed, a debt crisis made in No. 10—the No. 10 of Gordon Brown, aided and abetted by the backroom boys, the current Labour leader and shadow Chancellor. It is they who created the crisis in the first place.

[Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con)]

T14. Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that proceeding urgently and with vigour on the reform of political party funding is a matter of fairness and justice?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

We all know that that is a problem for all political parties. The controversies and scandals about party funding, the opaque way in which it is organised and the imperfect way in which political parties are held to account has damaged all political parties. That is why it is overwhelmingly in our shared interest to come to an agreement. As I said earlier, it is merely a matter of political will. The Kelly committee has show in outline what the bare bones of an agreement should look like and I hope that we will now be able to reach one.

[Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)]

T7. The Government have been taking a bit of a “pastying” in the west country recently and, as a result, we are told that the Deputy Prime Minister is listening—at least to the voices of his own MPs in panic. Will he also listen to the voices of Welsh workers at Talgarth Bakery, the Old Parish Bakery, Ferrari’s, Pin-it Pastry, Jenkins the Bakers and Peter’s pies and make a hasty—or should that be a “pastry”—retreat on the pasty tax?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

That is Christmas cracker stuff from the hon. Gentleman. As I said earlier, we have extended the period of consultation on that issue. I recognise the strength of feeling about the issue from him and from many Members on both sides of the House. We have listened very closely to the representations of many figures in the industry and I hope that we will be able to make proposals shortly.

[Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD)]

On 10 May, Rosehill street in Cheltenham was devastated by a major gas explosion. Within 24 hours, 600 residents of Hatherley in my constituency had also been evacuated following a police explosives alert. Will the Deputy Prime Minister join me in congratulating the emergency services, the council and residents on their response to that unprecedented combination of emergencies and send a letter of special support to the jubilee street party in Rosehill street, which is going ahead anyway in a great show—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. We are grateful to the hon. Gentleman. I do not want to guide the Deputy Prime Minister unduly, but I should say that there is no violation of parliamentary rules in offering the House an answer that consists of a yes or a no.

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

Yes.

[Bridget Phillipson (Houghton and Sunderland South) (Lab)]

T8. Last week, the Deputy Prime Minister said:“There is going to be no regional pay system. That is not going to happen.”Are not his Government drawing up plans for precisely such a system?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

No.

[Zac Goldsmith (Richmond Park) (Con)]

Will the Deputy Prime Minister reassure the House that there was no reference to recall in the Queen’s Speech because it has been sent back for a much-needed redraft and not because it has been dumped altogether?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

As my hon. Friend will know, the Select Committee is still carrying out its inquiry on recall. I know that he recently gave evidence to the Committee on the subject and, in keeping with our approach to many other items on the constitutional reform agenda, we are keen to gather views and consult widely before we produce draft legislation.

[Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)]

T9. The Deputy Prime Minister will know that Bristol has decided that it wants an elected mayor. Will he support the official Liberal Democrat candidate or the man who has just resigned his Liberal Democrat membership after 25 years because he thinks that being outed as a Lib Dem will sound the death knell for his political ambitions and is therefore standing as an independent?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I think the hon. Lady was trying to be stinging, funny or both, but I could not quite work out what the question was. It is up to the Liberal Democrats in Bristol, as it is to all political parties, to decide how to put forward candidates for mayoral elections.

[Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)]

Given the allegations of voting fraud in certain parts of the country, including in Bradford in my part of the world, will the Deputy Prime Minister explain why photo ID should not be required before people are allowed to vote?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

In deciding the new individual voter registration system, with which we are proceeding with, I hope, cross-party support, we have looked exhaustively at the checks we consider necessary to bear down on fraud in the electoral system. That is the whole point of individual voter registration and it was right that the Government brought forward the timetable we inherited from the previous Government so that it is introduced sooner rather than later.

[Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)]

T10. Given the slow progress with the related legislation, will the Deputy Prime Minister tell us what share of the lobbying market is accounted for by companies that did not register with the UK Public Affairs Council? What will the penalty be for those companies that do not co-operate with the Government’s proposed statutory register?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I am afraid that I cannot give the right hon. Gentleman the statistic he asks for, but I will look into it and see whether I can provide it later. On his second point, we are consulting right now on that exact issue of penalties and sanctions.

[John Stevenson (Carlisle) (Con)]

If we are going to give more power to the electorate by removing privilege and patronage from a reformed House of Lords and giving voters the power of election, will the Minister confirm that there is no compelling reason for a referendum?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I am personally unpersuaded that we should waste £100 million of taxpayers’ money on an issue on which, unlike with electoral reform of this place, there is cross-party consensus, with manifesto commitments to reform from all three parties. I would take seriously advice from all those critics who say that we should not proceed with House of Lords reform at all. They claim that it is not an issue of significance to the British public, so I do not think we should waste a great deal of the public’s money on a referendum when we all, nominally at least, agree that this reform should happen.

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

T12. The Deputy Prime Minister has been quoted in the media as saying, rightly in my opinion, that social mobility will take a long time to change, so why, on coming to power in May 2010, did he agree to the reduction or elimination of measures such as the education maintenance allowance and Sure Start long before their long-term effects could be judged?[Official Report, 24 May 2012, Vol. 545, c. 15-16MC.]

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

As I hope the hon. Lady knows, we have protected the money for Sure Start, but there is, I acknowledge, greater discretion for local authorities to decide how to use it. I am aware of 10 outright closures of Sure Start centres across the country, and of course it is important to know why local authorities have taken those decisions. I hope that she is also aware of the extra investment that we are now putting in, particularly for early years—for children even before they go to school. We know from the evidence that that makes the most dramatic difference for subsequent social mobility. As of April next year, 40% of all two-year-olds in this country, including all two-year-olds from the most disadvantaged families, will receive for the first time 15 hours of free pre-school support.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

Should there not be a civic duty on everyone to ensure they are on their local electoral register, and should that not be backed up by an enforcement system of civil penalties for those who do not?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

Absolutely. We listened to many representations on this point when we considered what should be included in the Bill on individual voter registration and we have indeed, as I hope he has noticed, included a civil penalty to ensure that the civic duty to register to vote is properly maintained.

[Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab)]

T13. Following on from the G8 summit at the weekend, may I ask the Deputy Prime Minister how the plan to support the Afghan Government after 2014 will have the slightest prospect of success without real progress on problems of politics and governance, which, according to almost all reports, have got worse, not better, in recent years?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

The hon. Gentleman makes a very serious point. Anybody who has visited Afghanistan or examined the conflict there will know that there was never any prospect of a military solution alone. In a sense, all that military intervention can do is create the space in which social and political stability can take root. I share his concerns that we are still some way from that. It is immensely important at this stage, as we are moving towards real transition in Afghanistan, that we include other countries in the region, notably Pakistan, so that they play their full part and bring their influence to bear in order that political stability can indeed take root in Afghanistan.

[Stephen Williams (Bristol West) (LD)]

My right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister mentioned in his speech this morning plotting the advances made by children on free school meals. Some of the schools in my constituency have more than 50% of pupils on free school meals. Will he undertake to increase the value of the pupil premium over the life of this Parliament so that the schools already making huge progress can build on their achievements so far?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

The pupil premium is currently worth £1.25 billion, and that will double to £2.5 billion by the end of this Parliament. That is additional money on top of the baseline funding provided to schools. Last year, on a per pupil basis, the pupil premium was worth about £480. It is now worth £600 and will go on to increase. Given those statistics, it is remarkable that Labour in Manchester voted to scrap the pupil premium altogether. How on earth is that going to help social mobility?

[Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab)]

In his speech on social mobility this morning, the Deputy Prime Minister said:

“It is my strongest political conviction that…if we have a chance to open up success to all, we must seize it.”

What is he going to do to put an end to the scandal of unpaid internships, particularly in politics, the media and our creative industries?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I pay tribute to the right hon. Lady’s work on internships, not least in this place as part of the Speaker’s Panel. As she knows, the legislation is clear: if an intern is, in effect, doing work that should be remunerated, he or she should be remunerated. There are cases of interns doing work that falls outside that legal definition. Having looked closely at the issue, and she and I have corresponded on this, we have decided that it could be self-defeating if we sought to outlaw altogether across the piece—not least, for instance, in charities—some unpaid internships. I agree, however, that even in those cases, it is incredibly important to ensure that internships are available to everybody, and that basic costs, such as travel costs and lunch costs, are properly covered, even in those cases.

[Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)]

When are we going to stop the constitutional scandal that, because of devolution, Scottish MPs can vote on legislation that affects my constituents but does not affect their own constituents?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

As the hon. Gentleman may know, the McKay Commission, established to look into the so-called West Lothian problem, is doing its work and will report by the end of the Session. I urge him to give evidence to that commission, perhaps, and certainly to follow its work closely.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

Electoral Registration and Administration Bill

Nick Clegg Excerpts

Thursday 10th May 2012 Written Statements

[The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Nick Clegg)]

I am announcing today that the Government are introducing the Electoral Registration and Administration Bill into the House of Commons. The Bill will tackle electoral fraud by speeding up the introduction of individual electoral registration (IER) in Great Britain. It will also modernise our electoral registration system, making it more convenient for people to register to vote. The Bill also introduces a number of provisions that will make improvements to the running of elections.

Last June we set out our initial proposals and draft legislation for the introduction of IER (Cm 8108). We published our proposals for consultation and for pre-legislative scrutiny by the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee (PCRC). Also, in July and September 2011, the Government published draft legislation in relation to certain provisions contained in the Bill concerning the administration and conduct of elections for pre-legislative scrutiny by the PCRC (Cm 8150 and Cm 8177).

We are very grateful for the feedback that we have received not only from the Committee, but from debates in Parliament and everyone who took the time to respond to our White Paper. The principle of introducing IER was widely supported by both the cross-party PCRC and those who responded to the White Paper. We listened to the feedback expressed about elements of the Government’s proposals and in our response to the PCRC and public consultation (Cm 8245) we announced a series of changes to the proposals. This included ensuring there were more safeguards in place so that as many eligible people as possible stay on the electoral register during the transition so that we can focus on those people eligible to vote but missing from the register. Since the publication we have been working with stakeholders to further refine our proposals. We have listened, and we have learned, and we are confident that our amended proposals will safeguard the completeness of the electoral register while improving its accuracy.

Today we are also publishing a set of documents alongside the Bill to help explain the effects of the proposals. This includes explanatory notes, a number of impact assessments including a statement of equality considerations and a privacy impact assessment, and a Keeling schedule to make it easier to understand the effect of measures within the Bill. It is also our intention that during the passage of the Bill we will publish draft secondary legislation with more detail on the system we will implement, to help inform parliamentary debate and enable those implementing IER to begin detailed planning as early as possible. Copies of these documents will be placed in the Commons Vote Office, the Lords Printed Paper Office, Libraries of both Houses and will be available online on the Cabinet Office website (www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk) and updated as planning for the introduction of IER progresses.