Devolution (Immigration) (Scotland) Bill
Ian Murray Excerpts(1 day, 11 hours ago)
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Stephen Gethins
I will maybe leave aside some of the hon. Lady’s sums—I am not sure whether she has been reading Labour briefings—but she does make a valuable point about rural areas, and I acknowledge her commitment to her constituency and her rural background. I commend her for the way she conducts herself in this place. There are a number of points here.
We know that bringing workers to rural areas, and the very high threshold to bring people into the country, is a challenge—that is not new—which is why so many rural industries have been calling out for a Scottish visa system to plug that gap. What is Scottish Government policy? Well, we have talked with our Labour colleagues —although not, I would expect, the Conservative party, for ideological reasons—about having a more progressive taxation system in which those who earn less pay less, and those who earn more pay more. I will not criticise the hon. Member for Gordon and Buchan (Harriet Cross), who stood for election on a Conservative manifesto and won, but I am always surprised that the Labour party does not take the opportunity to endorse such a system more strongly.
Some 70% of the Scottish Government’s budget still comes in the form of a block grant from Westminster—that is a huge amount. For all the talk we have heard of decentralisation, empowerment and so on, why do we not have a more sensible approach to that?
The Secretary of State for Scotland (Ian Murray)
The hon. Gentleman rightly mentions the block grant. If, as he says—not entirely correctly—the block grant is the largest part of the Scottish budget, why did he vote against the Budget in which the block grant gave the Scottish Government £4.9 billion extra?
Stephen Gethins
What I find striking is that the Scottish Government have not only had to receive their block grant, rather than making these decisions for ourselves, which those of us on the SNP Benches would like to do, but have spent years with Tory austerity and are staring down the barrel of cuts elsewhere. The Secretary of State might quote figures in terms of the cash, but after years and years of Tory government that are not being helped by the Labour party, by the cuts that have come about as a result of Brexit, which they now endorse, by the cut to the winter fuel allowance that Labour brought in, which the Scottish Government brought in measures to offset—
Stephen Gethins
I am glad if we can get back to the Bill. I am struck that Labour Members never seem to be that keen to talk about the areas for which they have responsibility. They talk about the Scottish Government an awful lot but not the areas for which they have responsibility. This Bill speaks to a specific Scottish solution that could be brought in to meet particular Scottish needs, and it is one that, to be fair, Scottish Labour has talked about.
Let me move on to talk about think-tanks and other organisations. The Law Society of Scotland—
Stephen Gethins
I will give way to the Secretary of State one more time, and then I will move on to these other organisations.
Ian Murray
The hon. Gentleman has been very generous in giving way when it suited him to do so. All the things he is talking about are not included in the Bill. It is a simple, one-line Bill that would devolve the entire immigration system to Scotland. For Members who might not know how the Scotland Act 1998 operates, let me explain that if a matter is contained in schedule 5 to that Act, it is reserved, and if it is not, it is deemed to be devolved. This Bill is just devolving the entire immigration system, so the individual issues relating to visas that he is talking about are irrelevant to this debate.
Stephen Gethins
I thank the Secretary of State, because that was a valuable intervention and he raises a good point—[Interruption.] I am glad that he is paying attention now. I raised that point at the start of the debate, when I said that this is not ideal. It is a short Bill that was proposed some time ago and, as I have said, I am very open to it being amended. I hope we will vote on this today and I ask the Secretary of State to meet me so that he and I can sit down with his officials, and Home Office officials if they will listen to him, and bring them in. I am looking to the Secretary of State and hope that he will today give that commitment to meet me so that we get something that works for his party, can work for others and can hopefully work for the sector as well. [Interruption.] I will take that as a yes, so I am very glad and thank him for being so constructive.
Ian Murray
The hon. Gentleman has to be clear with the House about the purpose of the Bill, because we will have to vote on it today if the Division bells ring. If the Bill passes, it will merely remove immigration from schedule 5 of the Scotland Act 1998, which would devolve immigration to the Scottish Government—yes or no?
Pete Wishart
Okay. Right, let us look at Scotland’s population then. Scotland’s population is probably in the region of 5.5 million. Some estimates are 5.43 million and some are 5.7 million. We have been in population decline since the latter part of the 20th century. This is an issue that particularly interests and excites me. I think the Scottish Affairs Committee has done three reports on it, and I think Secretary of State served on the Committee during one of the inquiries on Scotland’s migration issues. Those were helpful reports, and hopefully they add to the debate. I am glad that a few people have referenced them. We got down to the serious business of trying to address the issue. I congratulate the Blair Government, which was visionary when it came to immigration; it was imaginative. Tony Blair opened up eastern Europe through accession, which helped our issues in Scotland. For a while, that reversed our long-term population decline.
The Tony Blair Government also gave us fresh talent. It gave people an opportunity to come to study at one of our world-class universities and stay and contribute to the Scottish economy for a period of their early lives. It was fantastic. It was backed by the UK Government and the Scottish Government, with overwhelming support from hon. Members in this House. The policy was then subsumed by a general UK policy, which meant that we lost our advantage.
Pete Wishart
I know that fresh talent is exciting and of interest to the Secretary of State, so I give way to him.
Ian Murray
I sat on the Scottish Affairs Committee when it was chaired by the hon. Gentleman and produced one of those reports on migration and depopulation in Scotland—I think it was during the 2015 to 2017 Parliament —and I remember that one of the conclusions of the report was that the biggest type of migration out of Scotland was 19 to 26-year-olds migrating to the rest of the UK. We never answered why.
Pete Wishart
Absolutely. I was going to come to that, but it is good to look at that now. There are reasons for that, although I am not entirely clear about them; the Committee did not get to the heart of that in its analysis. We live in a United Kingdom and have a massive mega-city, London, so there is always the allure for young Scots to come down to London. I did it myself, and I am pretty certain that the Secretary of State spent a good part of his young life in London. Most Scots at some point find themselves living in London. But it is worse than that for Scotland, because we have a centuries-old historical culture and tradition of emigration. Immigration has not really been that big an issue for us. We obviously benefit from it, but the key feature in the history of Scotland and this debate is emigration. As everybody knows, there are Scots communities all around the world, from Canada and New Zealand to the United States, and they have always acted as a draw for our young people. Not so much now, but previously, young Scots settled abroad, so we got into this cultural trend of people leaving Scotland. We have to address that.
One other thing that the Scottish Affairs Committee looked at but did not come to any great conclusion about was deindustrialisation and its impact on encouraging people to emigrate. We obviously have deindustrialisation in Scotland, and we need only look at some of our major cities, and at the difficulties and features of life in those cities, to see why people would leave. We are wrestling with problems that successive UK Governments have bequeathed Scotland, whether through Brexit policy or the two-child benefit cap, mixed with the historical attitude to emigration and deindustrialisation. Those are the things that my hon. Friend the Member for Arbroath and Broughty Ferry and his modest Bill invite us to address.
My hon. Friend has not got the solution in the Bill; he said that, and that it is an open Bill. I am quite surprised that the Secretary of State does not understand how Committee works for private Members’ Bills. My hon. Friend is giving an invitation to the House. I am laying out the difficulties and issues that we have identified—I will get on to demography in Scotland in a minute; hon. Members should wait till they hear about that—and my hon. Friend is saying, “Help us.” Let us work together. We have a real problem in Scotland. There are some fantastic contributions to be made, with real in-depth analysis by people who understand how to look at critical questions and come up with solutions. Help us deal with this, so that we can address the range of issues that we have. Believe me, if we do not start to address them, we will be in really serious trouble.
Pete Wishart
I am sorry—I thought I was going to get the figures. We do way beyond our national share when it comes to inward migration, so please let us have no more of this. Let us just agree that people come to Scotland and we want more to do so.
Regardless of how successful we have been in attracting people, we are still in a situation of long-term population decline in Scotland. That is the population, but the demography of Scotland is a bigger horror story, and it is one thing that we really need to look at. Some 22% of Scotland’s population is over 65, which is one of the highest ratios in the whole of the western world—I think the figure for England is 17%. We have a birth rate of one child for every three women—again, one of the worst rates in the whole of the industrialised world. I do not need to lecture hon. Members about what the birth rate means. We need two children for every woman just to sustain the population at its current levels; a birth rate of one child for every three women cannot be sustainable. That is what makes the two-child benefit cap all the more absurd, heinous and callous. This Government are working contrary to what we need in Scotland to address some of these issues.
Therefore, given our falling birth rate, we are entirely dependent on immigration to keep our population at current levels, and maybe to increase it modestly for the prospects of economic growth. One of the few ambitions and commitments that this Government are sticking to is to cut net migration—that is their absolute and utter mission. They will not even bring forward a youth mobility scheme in all its glory because of their concern about the impact on net migration. Scotland is burdened with an immigration system and a set of Government policies that make our situation so much worse. Why do you think that we consistently call for this power to be devolved? No Scottish Labour MP has stood up and opposed that commitment. If they are not going to do it, they should give the power to us and allow us to do so.
All over the world, the populations of Western industrial countries are facing these difficulties. They have got the powers to address them—we have seen examples in Italy and Spain, which have particularly bad birth rates, almost on a par with what Scotland has. They have ministries devoted to trying to increase the birth rate and do something about the impending crisis that is coming their way. Even in China, population stagnation is beginning to take hold. The world population will stop growing in about 2055, and at that point there will be stagnation before rapid population fall. It is at the point where that curve starts to bend that we get stagnation, which is why nations are addressing the issues that they have.
Have a look at Japan: historically resistant to immigration, Japan is going through a structural economic crisis because of its demography and population issues. Its population is due to fall by 20% in the next 10 years because of the falling birth rate. It is going to fall from third in the GDP rankings to 10th. That is what awaits the United Kingdom over the course of the next 20 or 30 years. This Government cannot look further than the nose on their face; all they are seeing just now is Reform, and all they are thinking about is, “How do we take them on; how do we beat them?” There is no strategic thinking or long-term vision about what we will do towards the end of the century when all of this starts to take hold. Nothing, no imagination, no inquiry, but this is where we are going.
It might blow some Members’ minds, but towards the end of the century migrants might be at a premium and there will be a competition to try to get people into nations around the world. I know that is too much for them to start to contemplate just now, but that is where we are going. And yet for them the issue is about curbing migration. They see migration as a problem that has to be managed, with no concession or ground given to anything that might get in the way of the net migration figures. We are lumbered with that in Scotland. Where we want to move on and deal with our issues, we cannot do so but we should be able to do that.
We heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Arbroath and Broughty Ferry about the support that the measures in the Bill have in Scotland. That is no surprise because business organisations and think tanks have seen what is going on. They just need to look at some of our sectors to find that there is a crisis in practically every one and in our public services, so of course they support the measures. There is even political consensus in the Scottish Parliament that something needs to be done. The only thing is we need the UK Government to get on board, and the Bill before us today will help to achieve those goals.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Arbroath and Broughty Ferry conceded from the outset, the Bill is not perfect—it is a one-line Bill—but invitation is there to get it to Committee—[Interruption.] I say to Members on the Labour Benches, including the hon. Member for Isle of Wight West (Mr Quigley), colleagues from the Conservative party and the Liberal Democrats, who are not here: we have identified the issue. If somebody thinks that we have got all of this wrong, I want to hear from them. I do not want to hear about what the Scottish Government are doing with ferries or whatever it is they want to talk about—[Interruption.] This is the thing, Madam Deputy Speaker—Government Members do not want to talk about the issues that are important to us in this House. They want to talk about stuff that is devolved to the Scottish Parliament. Is that because they think their Members of the Scottish Parliament are not up to the job, so Labour Members in this House have to constantly go on about those things? The Secretary of State can confirm, but I think Labour has about 50 MSPs up in Scotland. Why not let them get on with their jobs while we deal with the things that we need to fix down here?
Ian Murray
Immigration is wrapped up in a lot of policy areas that are devolved to the Scottish Parliament. The Scottish Government themselves, in Parliament, declared a housing emergency. Does the hon. Gentleman think that the lack of housing in Scotland has anything to do with the inability to attract migrants to do the jobs in the places where they are needed to do them?
Pete Wishart
I think that we are going to have quite a few debates like this in the next few years, so I say this ever so candidly: that is a matter for the Scottish Parliament to resolve.
The Secretary of State’s party is trying to become the party in government in Scotland next year, but his party does not have any imaginative solutions, so over the next year we will be testing his proposals and policies against what we are doing. If people in Scotland are attracted to the Secretary of State’s policies and proposals, they will vote Labour in, but I do not think that will happen, and I think, in his heart of hearts, he also believes that now. We only need to look at the last by-election result. So when we are elected to this House, let us deal with the things that matter to us, and nothing is more important than this issue. If we do not get this fixed, we will have serious issues and structural problems in our public services and our economy. I appeal to the House: let the Bill go through and then let us all work together to resolve the situation.
The Secretary of State for Scotland (Ian Murray)
May I begin by thanking all Members for their contributions, and the hon. Member for Arbroath and Broughty Ferry (Stephen Gethins) for bringing the Bill before us today? I am slightly confused, after his 42-minute contribution, about what he is actually promoting. He seems to be suggesting that the Bill should pass and go into Committee, and then he will invent another Bill to do different things. The Bill before us, which is what we should be debating, is a short Bill that would essentially remove immigration from schedule 5 to the Scotland Act 1998 and devolve it wholly to the Scottish Parliament. As I have said before, if nothing is in schedule 5—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)
Order. Forgive me, I may have misheard, but did you say it was a 42-minute contribution?
Ian Murray
I stand corrected, Madam Deputy Speaker. It was an even longer contribution, at 50 minutes, and the hon. Member was still not honest about what the Bill does. The Bill before us today devolves the entirety of the immigration system to Scotland.
Stephen Gethins
I am going to try to be productive with the Secretary of State, even though he has accused me of not being honest—I wanted to take as many interventions from his colleagues as I could, and I did. I have been open enough to say that the Bill is short so that we can try to work together, and I would love to hear Scottish Labour’s proposals.
Ian Murray
I did not accuse the hon. Gentleman of being dishonest. Those are his words. Maybe he is reflecting on his own contribution. Let me take that intervention straight on and give the House the actual quote from the deputy leader of the Scottish Labour party, not what Members have determined that she may have said. I will come on to why what she said is really important and completely aligned with UK Government policy. The quote from the deputy leader of the Scottish Labour party was:
“there would be dialogue and discussion but we need to recognise that growing home-grown talent is really important.
At the moment there are no plans for”
A Scottish visa,
“but I think if you have governments taking common-sense approaches”
to skills shortages, as
“an incoming Labour Government would do,”
that helps resolve the problem. That is what she said, and what we are working on.
Let me conclude my remarks with some clarity on the Scotland Act 1998. As I said, if something is in the Scotland Act and is mentioned in schedule 5, it is reserved. If it is not, it is deemed to be devolved. The Bill would devolve immigration to the Scottish Government and Scottish Parliament. I make that point strongly at the start because it leads into all the other arguments we have heard from hon. Members from across the House about what the requirement would be at Berwick, on the border between Scotland and England.
Gareth Snell
I, too, have read the very short sentence in the Bill, which does not talk just about immigration. It states:
“including asylum and the status and capacity of persons in the United Kingdom who are not British citizens”.
My understanding—I am happy to be corrected—is that if the issue was devolved to the Scottish Government, they could, essentially, grant indefinite leave to remain and all sorts of British citizenship statuses through their powers in Scotland. That could distort the entire immigration system of the United Kingdom.
Ian Murray
And the consequence is that we would require checks in both directions. As the Minister for Independence—did my hon. Friend know that the Scottish Government had a Minister for Independence?—clearly said, as we have heard, that a hard border would be required in particular cases. Scottish Ministers, incidentally, have just awarded themselves a £20,000 pay rise—certainly not on the basis of their performance.
It is important to acknowledge the complexities of immigration as a cross-cutting policy area. SNP Members do not want to talk about it as a cross-cutting policy area, because many of the policy areas around immigration are devolved to the Scottish Government. This is not simply about numbers. It covers issues of social cohesion, as we heard this morning, economic stability and public services. Ensuring we have a fair and properly managed immigration system that takes account of those complexities is a priority for this Government. We have made clear that the immigration system we inherited is not working. Indeed, the previous Government, which the shadow Secretary of State served in, said that the immigration system in the UK was broken. Under the previous Government, between 2019 and 2024, net migration almost quadrupled, heavily driven by a big increase in overseas recruitment.
I have the net migration figures here, and they have been a key part of the debate. In 2023, the net migration figure for the United Kingdom was 906,000. If there was a proportionate share of that net migration going to Scotland, then the immigration to Scotland would be somewhere in the region of 80,000 to 85,000. Indeed, it was below 60,000, so a huge number of net migrants who are coming to the UK are not going to Scotland. The big question has to be why. We had a huge tirade from the hon. Member for Arbroath and Broughty Ferry about Brexit and its consequences, but those lower figures are still higher than before the UK left the European Union. The big question has to be asked: why are people not going to Scotland to work and live?
Stephen Gethins
I am grateful for the constructive way the Secretary of State is approaching the debate. I am not sure he can blame us for Tory migration policy. Does he think we should be driving down migration, because that is not what we are hearing? Does he think—we are talking about the health of the economy—that the Brexit he and I stood up against has been a net benefit for the economy?
Ian Murray
I have said already that net migration has to come down. That is the view of the Prime Minister and this Government, because it is too high. The reason it has to come down—this goes right to the heart of some of the big issues in Scotland that the SNP Scottish Government do not want to talk about—is that nearly one in six young people in Scotland are not in education, employment or training. We have shipyards in Scotland that build the very best ships in the world, employing Filipino and South African welders who look from the top of those ships into some of the poorest communities in Scotland and the United Kingdom, where a huge number of young people are not in employment, education or training. We need to do something about that. That is why net migration has to come down.
Workforce and skills planning is a much more important way to tackle skills shortages. We have been leaving businesses unable to find the skills they need in the UK reliant on workers from abroad. That is the record of the previous Conservative Government.
Let me say it again: net migration is too high, and the interaction between migration and skills in the labour market is fundamentally broken. All those organisations read out by the hon. Member for Arbroath and Broughty Ferry in support of his proposal also say the very same thing. Skills in the labour market is broken, and the link between migration and skills in the labour market is fundamentally broken. That is why we need confidence in the whole system, and that whole system needs to be fundamentally rebuilt.
That is the UK Government’s focus. We will face these challenges head-on by delivering on our missions in Scotland by kick-starting economic growth, which has been a disaster under the Scottish Government. If Scotland had grown at the same level as even Manchester, the Scottish economy would be tens of billions of pounds larger. If the city and region of Glasgow had grown at the same level as Manchester, its economy would be £7 billion larger. Kick-starting economic growth is therefore a key driver for this Government, as well as making Britain a clean energy superpower, in which Scotland will play a key part, and of course tackling poverty. I set out my Department’s priorities in Scotland during a recent speech at the University of Edinburgh. Given the relevance of that to the debate’s subject matter, let me draw on some of the points I made then.
Pete Wishart
I hope that the Secretary of State will get to the territory of how we address some of the issues we face. One of issues I pointed out is our poor birth rate in Scotland, with only one child for every three women. How does he think his Government’s policy of a two-child benefit cap helps address our birth rate issues?
Ian Murray
I do not think we can determine birth rate issues through the welfare system. The hon. Gentleman is essentially saying that people are choosing not to have larger families because of the welfare system. The fundamental problem of depopulation in Scotland has been around for 100 years—he mentioned that himself—but he sits on one small part of the welfare system to try to make a point that is not relevant to the debate.
Ian Murray
I am happy to give way. Can the hon. Gentleman intervene less angrily than he has in the past?
Dave Doogan
The Secretary of State always enjoys the better side of my face. He characteristically paints Scotland as some sort of economic basket case, which I find a little offensive. If he wants to be robust in that accusation against our industry and our enterprise, how does he explain why Scotland is persistently in the top half of economic performing regions of the United Kingdom, and oftentimes on certain measures in the top quartile?
Ian Murray
I am tempted to say that Scotland is not a region but a country, but I will not go down that rather juvenile route. The clear point is that the No. 1 priority and mission of this new UK Labour Government is economic growth, because we require it in our communities. If the hon. Gentleman is saying that everything is rosy in Scotland, he should go to his communities and see whether he thinks that is indeed the case. There are lots of wonderful opportunities in Scotland in terms of economic growth, and we should be exploiting those to create the jobs and careers of the future. That is a key part of what we should be talking about.
It is clear that levels of immigration need to be reduced. The Prime Minister has also been clear that we will not be introducing an arbitrary cap. This issue will not be resolved by gimmicks, unlike what we see from Opposition parties. It is simply not enough to cap numbers. Without a joined-up approach, our economy will be left without the skills it needs to grow. By creating a fair and properly managed system, we will reduce net migration back down to sustainable levels. We will achieve that through the hard work of tackling the root causes of reliance on overseas recruitment, not through gimmicks such as arbitrary targets. We want to ensure that businesses are helped to hire domestic workers first. We will ensure that different parts of Government draw up skills and workforce improvement plans in high migration sectors.
When the hon. Member for Arbroath and Broughty Ferry introduced his Bill, he challenged the Labour Government on what we were actually doing. Let me just read our manifesto to him, because actually it reflects much of what he was asking for, but that is not what his Bill wants to try to achieve. It states:
“We will strengthen the Migration Advisory Committee, and establish a framework for joint working with skills bodies across the UK, the Industrial Strategy Council and the Department for Work and Pensions. The needs of our economy are different across the regions and nations, and different sectors have different needs. Given skills policy and employment support are devolved we will work with the Scottish Government when designing workforce plans for different sectors. This will ensure our migration and skills policies work for every part of the UK.”
It also states:
“The next UK Labour Government will also ensure that UK-wide bodies are more representative of our nations and regions, this includes representation for Scotland on the Industrial Strategy Council, and Scottish skills bodies working jointly with the Migration Advisory Committee.”
Before the hon. Member for Arbroath and Broughty Ferry pops up and says, “Well yes, but who is on the Migration Advisory Committee?”, I refer him to Professor Sergi Pardos-Prado, professor of comparative politics at the University of Glasgow. He was recruited to the Migration Advisory Committee because of his knowledge on migration-related issues in devolved areas. All of the accusations laid by the hon. Member for Arbroath and Broughty Ferry through his 51-minute speech have been completely dispelled by the manifesto and the actions of this Government already.
Andrew Bowie
So far there is very little in what the Secretary of State is saying that I can disagree with. If he does believe that the Bill is unnecessary, why are his Government adopting tactics today to avoid a vote on it? Why do they not have courage of their convictions and vote it down?
Ian Murray
The hon. Gentleman should be pleased, because there are only two of them to go down any of the Lobbies; 40% of the Scottish Conservatives are here, and that makes two of them—I still think it is too many, but we will work on that at the next election.
As I have said, it is simply not good enough to cap numbers without that joined-up approach. We recognise the compounding pressures that the asylum and resettlement system is placing on local authorities and devolved Governments. That is something we have not really spoken about today, but we are committed to addressing that and delivering long-term solutions, not the sticking plaster politics that we hear from the parties opposite. We are looking at these issues carefully and will develop a new cross-Government strategy, working with stakeholders across the country and the devolved Governments, who will be vital partners in this work.
We want to ensure that any policies alongside the broader approach to asylum and resettlement work in lockstep with the Government’s objectives to end homelessness and—I am sorry to mention a devolved issue—build 1.5 million new homes over the course of this Parliament in England. That is not happening in Scotland. It is important to us to work together to ensure positive integration outcomes and improve access for all.
Steve Yemm (Mansfield) (Lab)
Is it not the case that the SNP’s housing crisis has meant that 10,000 kids in Scotland have no place to call their home? I wonder whether the Secretary of State agrees that tackling that housing emergency is an urgent step to ensuring that we attract more workers into Scotland in order to have a workforce that can grow the Scottish economy?
Ian Murray
I very much welcome the intervention. I think it should be a national shame that 10,000 children in Scotland go to bed every night in a place that they cannot call their own home. SNP Members do not want to talk about that in this debate, but the single biggest thing that affects migration in every part of this United Kingdom is the lack of housing and affordable housing. This Government are determined to deliver that for England, but of course we are not in control of Scotland. What my hon. Friend might not know is that the Scottish Government declared a housing emergency on a Tuesday with a vote in Parliament and then on a Wednesday cut the affordable housing budget by £200 million. That is the action they take following their rhetoric. They do not have any plans to resolve some of the bigger issues.
Peter Lamb (Crawley) (Lab)
We have talked a lot about demographic challenges in Scotland over the course of the debate, and I do not doubt the concerns about the demography—I have a lot of concerns myself about it. But the biggest factors that affect having children—many couples desperately do want to have more children—are lack of housing, lack of access to childcare and lack of economic opportunity. In the 20 years that the SNP Government have had to do something about this, where is the progress in addressing any of those issues? If they want to look at where the problem with Scotland’s demography lies, they should start by looking in the mirror.
Ian Murray
Can I just say to my hon. Friend, as someone who has a 12-week-old daughter and a four-and-a-half-year-old daughter, that we are very much—
Ian Murray
Indeed, we are; perhaps the hon. Member for Perth and Kinross-shire (Pete Wishart) should try doing his bit a bit more. [Interruption.] There is no need to confess now, Pete. But my hon. Friend is right; the biggest consideration for many families is childcare. Government Ministers are highly paid, and my wife works as well, but getting access to proper childcare that is flexible enough to ensure people can stay in work is a real challenge. Again, that is something the Scottish Government do not want to talk about.
We have talked about the economy, public services, housing and childcare. The First Minister made a growth speech a few weeks ago, and his only conclusion on growth in Scotland was that we need access to visas. There was nothing else. There was no ambition. There were no solutions to how we get planning sorted in Scotland. There was nothing about making sure we win the global race to green power. His one recommendation was getting something that has no control over, so that he does not have to take responsibility for the things he does have control over.
Stephen Gethins
I think I have already congratulated the Minister on his personal contribution to population growth—that is happy news we can all get behind—but I want him to answer the question I posed earlier. He talks about the First Minister and growth. The biggest impediment to growth is our hard Brexit and our relationship with the EU. Does he think that has been good or bad for growth?
Ian Murray
This UK Labour Government are determined to reset our relationship with the European Union, have a much closer trading relationship and do what is in the UK national interest. The biggest impediment to growth in the economy in Scotland is the SNP Scottish Government, and that has been proven through time.
Gareth Snell
I thank the Secretary of State for giving way once again. He will know, because he was here with me when it happened, that this House came within six votes of coming to a settled position on customs union membership, which I appreciate is no longer the Government’s policy. When they became aware of how close the vote was going to be, 48 Scottish National party Members abstained, so that it would fail and they could pursue their hard Brexit grievance, to try to make sure Brexit failed, because that is what they wanted to put on their party leaflets.
Ian Murray
We should not rerun the Brexit debate in this House, but it is worth acknowledging that the Bill is written in a different way from what the hon. Member for Arbroath and Broughty Ferry wants to deliver. He wants to pretend that it will go to Committee, and we will all sit around the campfire with marshmallows and decide on a wonderful way forward, but that is not what the Bill says.
My hon. Friend gets to the heart of the problem, because ultimately this is all to do with the advancement of the Scottish National party’s independence agenda. Nothing else gets them out of bed in the morning. I get out of bed in the morning to try to make sure that everybody in this country, including in my constituency, has better lives and better opportunities. SNP Members get out of bed to push for independence. That is the difference. When the Division bells rang on that occasion—I remember it very well—everybody thought that the vote would be carried. Those SNP Members sat on their hands and the vote was lost by six. All their credibility in trying to push something else through was completely shot at that moment—and do not forget that they also pushed for the 2019 general election at the same time.
I will now canter through page 2 of my speech. It is important for us to work together to ensure positive integration outcomes and improved processes overall. Let me turn to the valuable contribution that workers from overseas make to our economy, our public services and national life throughout the United Kingdom. As the hon. Member for Arbroath and Broughty Ferry has highlighted, the remote parts of Scotland face depopulation issues, and they have for a long time—I talk to my hon. Friend the Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Torcuil Crichton) about this on a regular basis. Skills shortages also remain across Scotland, as they do in different places across the UK. Indeed, according to the latest population projections from the National Records of Scotland, the factors driving population change are exactly the same across the whole United Kingdom.
Harriet Cross
The Secretary of State mentions depopulation in rural areas of Scotland and deskilling. North-east Scotland—as I am sure he is aware, because we have mentioned it more than once in this Chamber—is facing exactly that because of Labour’s policies on the North sea. Skills are being driven abroad at an unimaginable rate compared with the rest of the UK. We are depopulating and deskilling the north-east of Scotland because of Labour’s North sea oil and gas policies. Will he reflect on that or at least accept that that is the impact Labour is having on north-east Scotland?
Ian Murray
I was in the north-east of Scotland yesterday, in Buckie, turning on one of the largest offshore wind farms. Ocean Winds employs 45 to 70 local people from a 40-mile radius from Buckie. That is the kind of opportunity there is. Most of the people in Ocean Winds were from the oil and gas sector. There is no disagreement about the challenge, which is about how we transition a world-class, highly skilled workforce from an industry that is declining because of the age and maturity of the basin to the new opportunities and industry. There is no doubt that the green revolution is one of the biggest economic opportunities this country has had in generations, and we need grab hold of it. I also met Offshore Energies UK yesterday and had very productive discussions its representatives about Government policy and the consultation on the North sea transition. Those discussions will obviously continue.
These issues—as I have laid out, based on the National Records of Scotland—are not unique to Scotland, nor have they been solved by the increase in net migration in recent years. The Bill would not address the issues that the hon. Member for Arbroath and Broughty Ferry has raised, because the reasons that the resident population moves away from an area will also encourage any migrant population to follow suit as soon as they are allowed. The former Chair of the Scottish Affairs Committee, the hon. Member for Perth and Kinross-shire, mentioned Quebec. I have tried to have this checked—if it is slightly incorrect, I will write to the hon. Gentleman—but when I was in Quebec back in 2013, it had introduced a particular social care visa because it had a particular social care problem. It had to scrap that visa, because after the end of the two-year restrictions, everyone moved to other parts of Canada to work. Most went to Alberta to work in the oil and gas sector. That is a key point about having a different system from the one that is part of those net migration figures.
Johanna Baxter
On the point about social care, does my right hon. Friend agree that instead of looking to a one-line Bill on immigration to solve the issues in social care in Scotland, perhaps the SNP Government in Holyrood could have avoided wasting £28 million on a flawed national care service Bill, which was ill-conceived and ill-thought-out, much like the Bill that is before us today? Perhaps instead they could have invested that money in properly paying the workers who carry out the care. [Interruption.] Sorry?
Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)
Order. The debate is taking place with the Secretary of State, who has the floor.
Ian Murray
I agree with my hon. Friend. Look at the money that was wasted for the national care service—again, just another headline in the newspapers that the SNP required in the run-up to an election. It also wasted £680 million setting up Social Security Scotland and wants to put in place a new immigration system that will not require checks, any money, or a border between Scotland and England. The key thing here, which SNP Members do not want to admit and which they voted against, is that this UK Labour Government just gave the Scottish Government the largest settlement in the history of the Scottish Parliament—£4.9 billion more—and there is still a social care crisis in Scotland. That tells us all we need to know about where they spent the money. If SNP Members want to pop up and tell us where they have spent it, I am sure that the Scottish people watching this debate would be pleased to hear from them.
It is important to address the underlying issues in a sustainable way and investigate other levers to encourage people to stay, such as boosting attractive job opportunities, affordable housing, which we have discussed, local services, transport link connectivity and suitable local infrastructure. This could include investing in the area or offering taxation incentives to individuals and businesses to do so, as we are seeing with some of the initiatives going on in Scotland at the moment.
I acknowledge the consideration that the hon. Member for Arbroath and Broughty Ferry has given to Scottish visas and his views on them, but a separate Scottish visa or a separate immigration system are not things that the Government are currently considering, nor have we asked the independent Migration Advisory Committee to consider them. That is a straightforward Government policy.
Kirsty Blackman
The Secretary of State is laying out that the Government are not considering this—that, basically, it is not Government policy for Scotland to have control of migration or for there to be a specific Scottish visa. I assume therefore that he is happy for there to be a vote, and that he is going to encourage a vote, so that he can walk through a Lobby opposing this Bill. If he feels so strongly about it, why is he not pushing for there to be a vote?
Ian Murray
Let me turn to what the Government are doing, which might answer the hon. Lady’s question. We are not going to set up a separate Scottish visa; and I refer her back to a previous intervention from the hon. Member for Arbroath and Broughty Ferry, in response to which I mentioned exactly what the deputy leader of the Scottish Labour party actually said in the quote that SNP Members so often misquote. However, we have commissioned the Migration Advisory Committee to review key sectors, and the existing visa system makes provision for shortages specific to Scotland. Our long-term plan will see Departments working across Government, partnering with agencies and experts to build our skills base, tackle our labour market issues and reduce our reliance on migration.
The system does actually work. I have the shortage occupation list in front of me. That list features 20 or so different occupations, and Scotland has its own list, which includes occupation shortages that are not UK-wide. For example, “Boat and ship builders and repairers—all jobs” is a shortage occupation in Scotland, but not across the rest of the UK. “Managers and proprietors in forestry, fishing and related services” is on the list for Scotland, but not for the rest of the United Kingdom. Those are just two examples of big industries where Scotland does have specific entries on the shortage occupation list, as recommended by the Migration Advisory Committee.
The long-term plan has to be for us to work together to resolve those skills-based issues, tackling other labour market issues and reducing our reliance on migration for workforce planning. It is also clear that different visas for different parts of the UK would restrict movement and rights and create internal UK borders. Creating internal UK borders has been proposed by colleagues of the hon. Member for Arbroath and Broughty Ferry in the Scottish Government. The now Minister for Parliamentary Business—we have mentioned him before— who was then Minister for Independence suggested that there would have to be a hard border and border checks in the event that we had a different immigration system. That is all we need to know.
Adam Thompson (Erewash) (Lab)
My right hon. Friend talks about the risk of introducing internal borders within the UK. Can he elaborate on whether he thinks it at all possible under our current system of governance and policing to police any such borders?
Ian Murray
My hon. Friend hits the practicalities on the head. There is no way, at this moment in time, of monitoring cross-border, because there is not a border to monitor. We have the free flow of movement of people from north to south and from England to Scotland and Wales and so on. The Government do not support creating internal borders of any kind. The open land border within the UK renders tighter controls ineffective in Scotland. More permissive controls would weaken the UK’s position as a whole. Consistent rules and legislation are essential to prevent a two-tier system within the United Kingdom and to avoid geographical changes becoming a pull or push factor for those who wish to abuse the system. The current system allows flexibility and freedom for migrant workers to apply for alternative employment anywhere in the UK. Furthermore, visa holders may not want to stay in particular areas for much the same reason as UK nationals, and we cannot compel them to stay indefinitely in any case.
Mr Quigley
Does my right hon. Friend agree that migration, when managed well, is a truly wonderful thing, but this Bill would do quite the opposite?
Ian Murray
My hon. Friend says it all, and I could not agree more. The Bill would add extra complexity to an already extremely complex system. Adding devolved powers would increase that level of complexity even further. For example, the previous Fresh Talent: Working in Scotland scheme, which we have talked about, allowed international students graduating from Scottish universities two years in which they could work without needing a sponsoring employer. The route saw many participants relocate to other parts of the UK as soon as they could. The current graduate visa route offers all the same benefits of the old Fresh Talent route, but applies to graduates of all UK universities, not just those in Scotland.
Stephen Gethins
I am not going to comment on the common travel area—perhaps the Secretary of State can cover that—but I want to make a more productive point. Will his Government continue to be committed to that Scottish graduate route, which is so important to higher education? That is one area where I think we can agree. I wanted to bring in a point of consensus.
Ian Murray
We are concerned about the higher education system in Scotland at the moment, and this Government will do everything it can to support it. Let us work through that particular point, because it is important. The main driver for Scottish universities being in the place they are is the funding model they have been forced into having. It caps Scottish students going to university. That means the universities are completely and utterly underfunded, so their business model has had to reach into international waters to bring in much greater numbers of international students to balance the books. That model is completely broken if those international students decrease in number for a whole host of economic and other reasons. We end up in a situation whereby the whole financial issue is completely and utterly broken. To show the sums of money we are talking about, Edinburgh University is not in deficit—and it is important to say that—but it will be if it does not take action, and the deficit will be £140 million. That is a direct result of the Scottish Government’s funding of higher education.
Beyond that, the Migration Advisory Committee has also noted that the scale of migration needed to try to address depopulation would be significant, but that Scotland’s labour market needs are broadly similar to those elsewhere in the UK. The committee has highlighted in its work notable similarities and differences within nations and regions of the UK, and its ambition is to produce an analysis that is localised, but as rigorous as possible. We look forward to seeing that. However, the committee’s geographic focus has at times been limited by the reliability or availability of regional data. It will work with stakeholders to improve the geographical migration data they use, with a view to enabling greater improvement in localised insights.
Beyond this Bill, the proposals of the party of the hon. Member for Arbroath and Broughty Ferry in recent years include an expanded skilled worker visa for Scotland, a bespoke Scottish visa, a Scottish graduate visa and a remote rural partnership scheme. In relation to a Scottish rural visa pilot, the Migration Advisory Committee has noted that both Australia and Canada have place-based immigration programmes, but it is suggested that these schemes may not be a long-term solution to rural depopulation. We heard from the former Chair of the Scottish Affairs Committee, the hon. Member for Perth and Kinross-shire, that depopulation in Scotland has been a century long and therefore any scheme will not be a long-term solution to that kind of rural depopulation.
Dame Meg Hillier
My right hon. Friend is making an interesting point about the challenges facing rural areas where there are shortages of people. Denmark has a rota system for doctors going into rural areas for a few months at a time, because it, like Scotland and parts of England, have these challenges. Does my right hon. Friend therefore agree that having a separate immigration policy for Scotland is not the answer and that this issue is being grappled with across the world?
Ian Murray
Absolutely, and the biggest grappling that we have to do as a Government and a country is resolve the disconnect between immigration, skills, opportunities for young people and the way in which our economy works across every single part of the United Kingdom.
One of the Migration Advisory Committee’s key concerns about some of these schemes is the efficiency of any rural visa, primarily the ability to incentivise migrants to remain located in rural areas after any visa requirements to do so lapse, especially given that the UK is a geographically much smaller country than Australia or Canada—and I mentioned the issue with regard to Quebec. Migrants moving to rural areas would be subject to the same factors driving non-migrant populations to relocate, such as inadequate health services, which is right at the top of the agenda in Scotland.
Alison Taylor (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that the state of the national health service in Scotland is contributing to the low birth rate in Scotland, and we need to invest in maternity, fertility and post-birth services for mothers?
Ian Murray
It gives me no pleasure to say this, but I take great pride in the fact that this Labour Government concentrated on getting the NHS back on its feet after the election, and for six months in a row—six winter months in a row—waiting lists have fallen. However, in Scotland they have not. Despite the Scottish Government having a record settlement from the UK Labour Government and despite £4.9 billion extra, the NHS is broken in Scotland because it does not have a Government who are solely focused on making sure that the health of their nation is a top priority.
Pete Wishart
Why is the Secretary of State talking about the Scottish Government?
Ian Murray
I know SNP Members do not like us speaking about the Scottish Government, but the Migration Advisory Committee that they have talked about a lot in this Chamber already is addressing these issues. They challenged me to tell them what this Government were doing in relation to this Bill and migration in the Scottish context, and I am telling them what the Migration Advisory Committee is saying in response to this Bill. [Interruption.] SNP Members do not want to talk about it, but I will continue to talk about it until health in this country improves, and I have to say that when one in seven of my constituents are on NHS waiting lists, I will continue talking about it until these lights go out.
Non-migrant populations would have the same problems as the rest of us in terms of inadequate health services, the declared housing emergency, a broader lack of investment in skills and training, and economic opportunities for young people.
The one element in common among all these proposals is they are designed to provide a means to avoid or lower the salary requirements that apply to skilled worker visas. The Migration Advisory Committee has repeatedly advised against salary variations as they could create frictions for workers moving around the UK and could risk institutionalising areas as being low wage. This could have the effect of entrenching low pay in some areas for the resident populations as well as migrant workers, which would do nothing to resolve the long-term causes of depopulation. I am very proud, as is everyone on the Government Benches, of our Make Work Pay commitment and our new deal for working people.
Having different salary thresholds for different parts of the UK would also add complexity to an already complicated immigration system and would create difficulties for employers who operate across multiple regions of the UK, potentially requiring them to monitor the physical location of their employees and report that information to the Home Office to ensure compliance.
Of course we are aware of the demographic and labour market challenges faced by certain areas, sectors and industries, but we have seen record-high net migration levels in recent years while depopulation has remained an issue for Scotland, suggesting that immigration is not a solution to those challenges, especially given that we cannot practically compel people to stay in a particular area indefinitely. Instead, we are taking action through a joined-up approach across Government, in the UK’s immigration, labour market and skills system, to train up our own home-grown workforce, end the over-reliance on international recruitment and boost economic growth in every single part of the UK.
At the same time, the Government have confirmed that the changes made to key visa routes earlier last year will remain in place to drive levels down further. Additionally, as we announced last November, shameless and bad employers that flout UK employment laws will be banned from sponsoring overseas visas, as part of tough new action to clamp down on visa abuse and prevent the exploitation of overseas workers. I hope that the hon. Member for Arbroath and Broughty Ferry and his colleagues will give us their support in Scotland to ensure that workers are not exploited by rogue employers.
Let me turn to skills and migration. The Government recognise and value the important contribution that overseas workers make to our economy and public services throughout the United Kingdom. As the hon. Gentleman has highlighted, remote parts of Scotland face depopulation, and skills shortages remain at their highest levels across Scotland. However, those issues have not been solved by the increase in net migration in recent years. Indeed, many of the actions needed to fix Scotland’s skills shortages are already devolved matters under the control of the Scottish Government, so his SNP colleagues in Holyrood already have the levers they need to address those challenges. They may wish to try pulling some of those levers—perhaps he can do so himself, because he wants to be a Member of the Scottish Parliament. Indeed, I think a high proportion of his colleagues think the same. Maybe that is why the leader of the SNP in this House, the right hon. Member for Aberdeen South (Stephen Flynn), has already disappeared to go back to Scotland and make the case for his selection.
Let me just run through some of the levers that the Scottish Government could pull. They include powers relating to business rates, social security and tax; the record settlement of £47.7 billion, which is £4.9 billion more than before; and, of course, responsibility for education, health, housing, and employability and skills. They do not want to talk about any of those things. Businesses and unions consistently tell us that they worry about the skills gaps in Scotland. I am surprised that SNP Members do not care about this stuff. This is not just about skills and jobs; it is about opportunities for young people. Perhaps they do want to talk about it, because they all want to go to the Scottish Parliament and to refocus on what they are delivering.
The UK Government are focused on delivering outcomes and securing the future through our plan for change. Simply put, young people in Scotland—whether in work or seeking work—are not being supported with the skills and training that they need to succeed. Scotland’s rate of economic inactivity remains above that of the rest of the UK. I am not shy about repeating this: nearly one in six young people in Scotland are not in education, employment or training. Some 1,351 young people in Scotland left high school last year with absolutely no qualifications—an entire high school-worth of young people written off with no future because the Scottish Government refused to do something about it.
I am very proud that this UK Labour Government have relentlessly focused on getting people into work and developing their skills by increasing the national living wage and legislating to make work pay; strengthening workers’ rights and protections; providing £240 million for the Get Britain Working plan, which will overhaul jobcentres with a focus on skills and careers; and delivering a proper industrial strategy, developed in partnership with businesses and trade unions, to ensure that we get the economy, and the people in it, working. However, the Scottish Government also have a huge role to play, and they must use the levers that they have. As I have said before, I want co-operation between Governments to drive our economic growth, and skills are central to that.
I hope that the hon. Member for Arbroath and Broughty Ferry, his party and his colleagues in Holyrood will engage with all that work and replicate its focus in their programme for government next month, which I think is their fourth or fifth in four years—every other programme for government so far has been an abject failure. I would be particularly interested to see further work on skills and education, building on the work of the Withers review, because right now the SNP Government are failing on skills.
Ian Murray
The hon. Gentleman asks why and I will tell him. The number of college places is at its lowest level in a decade, with more cuts on the way; the attainment gap between the richest and poorest continues to grow; and, disgracefully, thousands of pupils left school last year with absolutely no qualifications, as I have said. That cannot be allowed to continue.
This is nothing new. Was it not the current First Minister who lobbied for tax breaks for private schools, whereas this Labour Government ended tax breaks for private schools?
Ian Murray
SNP Members keep shouting “Immigration!”, but as the Migration Advisory Committee has said, the immigration issue is complex, because it is about housing, health, education, skills, work and employment, and this is the First Minister’s record on that.
That is not all that the First Minister did as Education Secretary. We all remember the disgrace of working-class kids being marked down by the First Minister and the Scottish Qualifications Authority during the pandemic. Under him, poorer kids were penalised by postcode—penalised by their poverty. Poorer kids could not be getting the results that they were getting, so they were marked down. Bright and from a working-class area? The First Minister did not believe that you deserved the grades that your teachers decided you should have got.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)
Order. This is a very interesting riff on education, but can we get back to the immigration point, please?
Ian Murray
Thank you for your guidance, Madam Deputy Speaker, but the important point is that immigration and skills are completely linked. If the education system is broken and the skills system is broken, the SNP reaches for a Bill like this one, rather than reaching for the levers at the disposal of the Scottish Government.
I speak from experience. A working-class person looking to get on in life needs the security of a house, the opportunity of a career and someone to believe in them. During the pandemic, thousands of working-class kids were sent a clear message by the First Minister that he did not believe in them.
For our part, to tackle skills shortages, we will focus on investment in jobs, infrastructure and public services by upskilling resident workers and tackling economic inactivity. We will reduce the reliance on international recruitment to fill roles. We will have a shortage occupation list that includes specific occupations and sectors that are required in our national interest and for our economy. In addition, the UK Government want to engage with bodies in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland that are responsible for skills matters. That work is under way and will link directly to the Migration Advisory Committee, the Industrial Strategy Advisory Council, the Department for Work and Pensions and, of course, Skills England from an English and Welsh perspective.
Ms Billington
What is important is not only economic security for individuals and the opportunities that a strong economy would provide for them, but the economic security of our country. The SNP voted against Great British Energy and opposes nuclear power, both of which are vital to our energy security and our economic security. If it is opposed to those, how can we be sure that it would be competent to deliver immigration policy?
Ian Murray
It astounds me that the leader of the Scottish National party in this place, the right hon. Member for Aberdeen South, has GB Energy headquartered in his own constituency but voted against it. SNP Members voted against the extra £4.9 billion in the Budget, and they stand against nuclear power. Those three examples show why Scotland needs to take a new direction at the election next year.
Amanda Martin (Portsmouth North) (Lab)
Does the Secretary of State agree that the list of things that SNP Members oppose includes jobs being created in that constituency?
Ian Murray
With GB Energy, and indeed with the green revolution going on across the globe, my ambition is not just that Scotland will play a part, but that it will win the global race. It is well placed to do so, with first mover advantage. The things this Government have done—setting a mission for clean power by 2030, setting up and capitalising GB Energy and having a National Wealth Fund—are all part of making sure that Scotland wins that global race, and of creating the jobs of the future.
Sean Woodcock
It seems to me, to be fair, that this Bill is about creating jobs in Scotland—but jobs for form checkers and passport checkers at the border between England and Scotland, rather than anything particularly useful. Does my right hon. Friend agree?
Ian Murray
My hon. Friend is absolutely correct. All the Scottish National party debates that I have seen in this Chamber since I was lucky enough to be elected in 2010 have been predicated on independence. There have been no positive debates about what we can do to make things better for people in Scotland, increase economic growth, create skills and opportunities for the future, tackle inequalities in health or close the attainment gap. Those are all failures of the Scottish National party, but SNP Members do not want to talk about them. I am sure you do not want me to continue to talk about them either, Madam Deputy Speaker.
Graham Leadbitter
The point that the Secretary of State makes about the oil and gas sector is very pertinent. At Ardersier, the First Minister of Scotland and a representative of the UK Government met with Haventus relatively recently to support the investment there with joint efforts from both Governments. That was very welcome, but to support that we need a thriving service and hospitality sector, which is a real problem in my constituency. In parts of the highlands in Moray, in places such as Nairn and Aviemore, there is a growing population. Despite that, there are hospitality businesses that are open only five days a week out of seven, because they cannot staff them—they cannot get the staff. How does the Secretary of State suggest that we deal with that?
Ian Murray
As I have said throughout this debate, this is a really complex area. We cannot deal with it by just pulling on one lever and with a separate immigration system. We can deal with it by providing proper pay in the workplace, which is what we have done through our new deal for working people. We can provide housing, so that people can live there and afford to live there. We can provide connectivity, so that people can move around. A very practical thing that the Scottish Government could have done was to pass on the full rates relief that English hospitality businesses had, which was not passed on to Scottish hospitality businesses. Indeed, despite this Government legislating for a 40% reduction in perpetuity, the Scottish Government still refuse to do that.
Seamus Logan
I am sure my hon. Friend the Member for Moray West, Nairn and Strathspey (Graham Leadbitter) will agree that the difficulty in my constituency is not the issue of proper pay or housing. [Interruption.] If Labour Members will just listen for a moment, they will hear the issue is that we are at full employment. Some 2.3% of the population between the ages of 16 and 64 are unemployed. By any definition, that is full employment. The issue is that we cannot get the staff. The Secretary of State is ducking the question, so will he please answer it?
Ian Murray
Let us do a little mathematics. Some 2.3% of the population in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency are unemployed, and nearly one in six young people across Scotland are not in education, employment or training. That is nearly 100,000 young people alone. The question must be: why are those young people not seeking out those jobs in his constituency and the constituency of the hon. Member for Moray West, Nairn and Strathspey (Graham Leadbitter)? The hon. Gentleman wants to say to those young people, “You stay not in employment, education or training, and we will pull a separate immigration lever to get people to work in poorly paid industries, rather than boosting pay, careers, progression and the places that people want to live and work in.”
Scotland has a proud industrial past—indeed, we all know that from history—and it can have a bright industrial future that delivers jobs and wealth for families for generations to come. For too long, Scottish workers have missed out on work, and I worry that a new generation will miss out on the skills required to take up the new opportunities. While the Scotland Office will seek to work in co-operation with the Scottish Government, I am afraid that this debate is just another example of the SNP demanding more powers to distract from its own failures rather than take responsibility for them.
UK visas are tied to locations already—an international student at the University of Edinburgh is not commuting from Somerset. The question is then: at a time when the previous Government presided over record levels of immigration, why is Scotland not a more attractive place for people coming to the UK to work or study? I suggest that it is down to 20 years of SNP failure on policy delivery.
Johanna Baxter
Does my right hon. Friend agree that if we want to attract people to work in our great nation of Scotland, it is important that he continues the work he has been doing to promote businesses and services globally in Brand Scotland? [Interruption.]
Ian Murray
The flippancy with which SNP Members deal with these relevant and serious issues is there for all to see. I hope that a lot of our non-Scottish colleagues who are here today have seen how utterly deplorably they operate in this Chamber and how rude and patronising they are when we are dealing with serious issues for our constituents. Brand Scotland is there to do exactly that: to ensure that we get inward investment into Scotland, to sell Scotland to the world and to have a much more thriving economy for our communities.
Gareth Snell
The Secretary of State is being exceedingly generous with his time. SNP Members keep saying, “Don’t talk about the Scottish Government”, but the Bill’s aim is to devolve power from this place to the Scottish Parliament and Scottish Government, so I think the competence of the Scottish Parliament is in scope. Immigration is neatly and importantly linked to our national security. We have one system, which is an important layer of our national security. The Scottish National party wishes to frack that situation. Has the Secretary of State had any guidance from the Ministry of Defence or the Home Office on the implications of the immigration system changes that SNP Members are attempting to achieve?
Ian Murray
We have not yet examined this in any great detail in this debate, but defence and our national security are huge issues. We heard a bit about boat crossings; nobody wants to see those. We want to smash the gangs and stop the crossings. One person crossing by small boat is one too many, because they are putting in danger their life and the lives of others, and that has to stop. There is a huge defence and national security issue here, because the small boats crossings are run by criminal gangs in Europe and on the streets of constituencies all around the country.
The answer to the question my hon. Friend just posed is not in the Bill. This is a short Bill to devolve the whole immigration and asylum system to the Scottish Parliament. The Bill does not actually say what it will do. I have no doubt about the honesty and integrity—and any other word we might pluck out of the sky—of the hon. Member for Arbroath and Broughty Ferry, but we cannot take the Bill at face value. He says, “Pop it into Committee and everything will be wonderful,” but we do not know the implications of his Bill. If he wanted to, he could have brought in a Bill that addressed that point.
Stephen Gethins
I am grateful for the Secretary of State’s characteristically kind words about me. I am happy to take guidance, and to engage with civil servants and the MOD. Either vote the Bill out or do not, but let us engage with it. This is the most that the Secretary of State for Scotland has spoken in any debate since he was elected, so why will he not use the debate positively?
Ian Murray
I think I have used the debate positively. I have spent a long time talking about our skills agenda, our plan to make work pay, GB Energy, the national wealth fund, economic growth and Brand Scotland. All those things are very positive and have been delivered in the first few months of this Labour Government. If the Scottish Government had the same focus on delivering for the people of Scotland as we have down here, they would be in a much better place.
Peter Lamb
In the debate, any number of challenges relating to practicality and principle have been raised about the Bill, and we have repeatedly had SNP Members shouting out, “Put the Bill to a vote, then!” Every time they say that, everyone else in the Chamber hears, “We don’t have any answers to the questions and points that you raise.” Putting the Bill to a vote would be purely symbolism, and not a serious use of the House’s time.
Ian Murray
Absolutely, and I hope that my hon. Friend would say that this contribution from the Government Dispatch Box is a very good use of the Government’s time.
Ian Murray
I thank my hon. Friend very much—I hope Hansard heard that. I did say that the attractiveness of Scotland as a place to live and work is down to policy delivery, and let me mention one policy in particular.
Josh Fenton-Glynn
Like the shadow Secretary of State, I will be running the London marathon on Sunday. I mention that because people do not run marathons by making excuses, yet when we hear from SNP Members about skills, growth, health and universities, the excuse is always either immigration policy or a lack of devolution. If there is always an excuse for their failure, they will not achieve anything. That is why we need a serious debate about how we will get more people into Scotland.
Ian Murray
We all wish my hon. Friend well, Madam Deputy Speaker. I hope that “wishing him well” goes as far as going to his JustGiving page and throwing him a few quid. My record for 26 miles is based on how fast I can drive the car, not how far I can run; I know hon. Members will find that difficult to believe.
A key reason why it might not be attractive to live and work in some places in Scotland, and why reaching for this Bill would be wrong, is the provision of health services. There is no greater issue for our constituents; health is always the No. 1 priority for them, whether they live in Wales, Northern Ireland, England or Scotland. Concern about health services is top of the agenda for Scottish people. However, people in Scotland receive less cancer treatment than their neighbours in other parts of the UK, and the 62-day waiting time standard that was put into law has not been met in Scotland since 2012, more than 13 years ago. Over the winter, waiting lists in England fell for six months in a row, but over 100,000 Scots have been stuck on an NHS waiting list for tests or treatment for over a year. That is 26% higher than just a year ago.
Madam Deputy Speaker
I am not sure if I am thankful for that point of order. The Chair is overseeing the debate. I have listened to it very closely. I appreciate that it is about immigration. I know that the Bill is very thin—it is only two pages long—but it is broad in scope. I will continue to listen very closely to the Secretary of State, and he will ensure that his comments are within scope of the Bill.
Ian Murray
If my comments fall out of scope, Madam Deputy Speaker, I would be very happy for you to tell me, as you have the right to, and as you do so well; I will then change my remarks. However, the hon. Member for Perth and Kinross-shire spent three quarters of his rather lengthy contribution talking about the same issues that I am addressing. He may want to reflect on that.
Seamus Logan
I welcome your ruling, Madam Deputy Speaker, with regard to the focus of the debate.
You are speaking about waiting list times for cancer treatment. What has that got to do with immigration? Secondly, you keep focusing on—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)
Order. That is twice! “You” refers to the Chair. I think that is the end of that intervention. I call the Secretary of State.
Ian Murray
Just for clarity for Members of this House who are not Scottish, free personal care was a Labour policy of the last Labour Administration in Scotland. Let me deal directly with that intervention, which was well-meaning. The reason why we are talking about health is that the issue concerns the birth rate. We have heard already about the lack of maternity services, and the lack of maternity and paternity support, both pre-birth and post-birth. They are a key part of whether people determine to have more children.
People may have in the back of their mind the question of whether they want to go to Scotland and sit on a waiting list with one in seven of their fellow Scots, or want to live somewhere where the waiting lists are going down. Do they want to live in Scotland, where the Government have passed an Act committing to a 62-day waiting time, but have not met that target in 13 years? Do they want to be on an NHS waiting list that is 26% longer today than it was last year? Do they want to be in a place where in the first nine months of 2024, over 36,500 procedures were paid for by patients because they had to get their cataracts, hip and knee replacements done? They even had to pay for rounds of chemotherapy because their choice was pay or pain. That is the choice that this Scottish Government have given to patients. There is a two-tier NHS in Scotland: one for those who can pay, and one for those who have to wait in pain. Despite that abysmal backlog and Scots being forced to go private, almost 50,000 fewer operations are carried out a year than before the pandemic.
Does the hon. Gentleman want to intervene and say whether I have answered his question about why health is relevant to the debate? Perhaps not. The bodies responsible for community health and social care—a sector with a fair proportion of international workers—face a funding gap in Scotland of £457 million. Councils that have been slashed to the bone are responsible for social care services. The outsourcing of social care services and the driving down of wages are the only options that councils have been left with because of the constant underfunding of social care by the Scottish Government.
I make no apology for highlighting the SNP’s record in Scotland on the issues that it is responsible for. SNP Members never want to talk about the powers they have—just the powers that they do not have. But let me be slightly more positive and talk about our working together in a spirit of co-operation. The hon. Member for Arbroath and Broughty Ferry might want to reflect on this. I will share an example of Scotland’s two Governments working together on an immigration issue. Last August, 19 female Afghan medical students, barred by the Taliban in Afghanistan from completing their medical university studies, arrived in Scotland to train to become doctors. Previously, the women were confined to their homes and unable to contribute to their society through a medical career. Many feared for not just their careers but their lives. They felt that their lives were in danger, and they lived in fear of the Taliban.
The UK Government’s Scotland Office proposed student visas as an alternative route to using the Afghan citizens resettlement scheme, and the Scottish Government confirmed that they would introduce legislation to amend student funding regulations to ensure that the women could attend Scottish medical schools and complete their studies. It was a tremendous effort of co-operation between the UK and Scottish Governments, brokered by the wonderful Linda Norgrove Foundation. Linda Norgrove was an aid worker from the Western Isles in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar. The foundation was set up by Linda Norgrove’s parents John and Lorna in memory of their daughter, who was kidnapped and died during a failed rescue attempt in Afghanistan in October 2010.
The foundation aims to support women and children affected by war in Afghanistan. It has raised more than £3 million since it was established in 2010, which has been spent on a wide range of projects, from literacy programmes to calligraphy classes. It had been providing scholarships for women to study medicine, dentistry, the law and business at university. That came to an end when the Taliban banned women from attending university. On behalf of the UK Government, and I am sure the Scottish Government, I commend the foundation for its ongoing extraordinary work on this aspect of immigration. I highlight it not to make a political point, but because it shows that when we have an issue that needs to be resolved and the Scottish and UK Governments can work together, we can resolve these kinds of issues directly. Those Afghan women, when they complete their medical studies in Scotland, can contribute so much to the country and to their future.
This Government look forward to publishing the immigration White Paper. We will reduce immigration and work to provide Scotland with the economic growth, jobs and opportunities that it deserves and needs. We will continue to work with the Scottish Government on delivering for Scotland—we have reset that relationship—but we will also respect the devolution settlement. However, the UK Government do not believe that this Bill, devolving further powers on immigration, is the solution to Scotland’s depopulation or skills shortage. We need both Governments working together in this vital area, and if the Scottish Government are not willing to do that, I suggest that they stand aside next year and allow Labour to do it for them.
Oral Answers to Questions
Ian Murray Excerpts(3 days, 11 hours ago)
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Dr Scott Arthur (Edinburgh South West) (Lab)
The Secretary of State for Scotland (Ian Murray)
I know Members across the House will join me in paying our respects to His Holiness Pope Francis. I offer my sincere condolences to Scotland’s Catholic community who have this Easter lost a much loved and compassionate leader.
Just before the Easter recess, I had the privilege of leading the UK Government delegation to Washington DC, then on to Tartan Week in New York. The trip was a key part of my drive to promote brand Scotland around the world, to boost economic growth and to create jobs here at home.
Finally, Mr Speaker, to you, to Members across the House and to Scotland’s closest and most important neighbours, happy St George’s day.
Ian Murray
Before you do so, Mr Speaker, I had better answer his question. [Laughter.] Too excited about St George’s day so I am, Mr Speaker.
We should all be proud of Scotland’s universities, the contribution they make to Scotland’s public life and their reputation as the best in the world, but 18 years of the Scottish National party have left some of those proud institutions in dire straits. Job cuts and course closures are the inevitable product of the SNP’s decision to deliver a 22% real terms cut to Scottish student funding since 2013. Scotland’s universities, their staff and their students all need a Scottish Government with a proper plan to turn this crisis around; they need a new direction with Scottish Labour.
Dr Arthur
I thank the Secretary for State for his answer and for his comments about the Pope. I make my response within the context of my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests and I note my membership of the University and College Union.
The university sector in Scotland has never been in a worse state. It is in a state of crisis, with job losses, both compulsory and voluntary, being contemplated across the whole sector in Scotland. It is young Scots who are paying the price. To balance the books, the Scottish Government are limiting the number of young Scots who can go to university, forcing universities to rely more and more on the recruitment of students from overseas. To be clear, that means that Scots are often sitting at home unable to access a place because students from overseas with lower qualifications are getting those places. Does the Secretary of State agree that Scotland’s young people must be supported and the university sector must be fully funded in Scotland?
Ian Murray
I thank my hon. Friend for his question and for what he does to support higher education in Scotland. Thanks to the SNP’s higher education financial crisis, as my hon. Friend says, too many Scottish students are missing out on places. Labour has committed to ensuring that Scottish students from all backgrounds can access university, and that can only be achieved with a new funding settlement that both protects our world-leading universities and gives any Scottish student who wants to pursue university the opportunity to do so. I am proud to have made it from Wester Hailes education centre, in the Wester Hailes scheme, to the University of Edinburgh, but that story is becoming all too rare under the SNP Government. It is time for a new direction for Scottish universities.
Andrew Bowie (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (Con)
I associate myself with the Secretary of State’s remarks about the passing of His Holiness Pope Francis. I also wish all those not fortunate enough to have been born north of Hadrian’s wall a very happy St George’s day.
While he is not a graduate of the University of Aberdeen, like me the Secretary of State is a beneficiary of a Scottish university education. Scotland has some of the finest and most respected higher education establishments in the world, but as we saw last week at the University of Aberdeen, in warnings from the University of Edinburgh and, most starkly, at the University of Dundee, where over 600 jobs are being shed to make emergency savings, the current funding model, overseen by the SNP, is failing our institutions and our young people. I know we agree on that, but will the Secretary of State also acknowledge the devastating impact on Scottish university budgets of his own Government’s national insurance increase, adding £45 million to their salary bills, or will he continue to defend that job-killing, anti-growth tax on workers?
Ian Murray
The shadow Secretary of State is defending the SNP’s dreadful record on higher education in Scotland. It is clear from the principal of the University of Edinburgh, Sir Peter Mathieson, that the problems the university is having to deal with are caused by the underfunding of students from Scotland, which has meant the books have had to be balanced with an ever-increasing number of international students. The number of international students at the University of Edinburgh, for example, is still going up, although not as high as projected, and that is the major cause of the financial problems at Scottish universities. The Conservatives would do well not to hide behind the SNP and support it in that process.
Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD)
I associate myself with the Secretary of State’s comments about the death of Pope Francis.
In a rare consensus, I agree with much of what has been said by both the Secretary of State and the shadow Secretary of State. Many universities are extremely concerned about the funding situation. Many of my constituents who are employees of universities or who have children at Scottish universities are concerned, particularly following the news of the 600 job cuts at the University of Dundee. I have spoken to the principal of the University of Edinburgh and he is also concerned about the funding model in Scotland, which is failing everyone. Will the Secretary of State discuss with the Scottish Government how they can make changes and put pressure on them to do so? The national insurance changes are not helpful, so it would help Scottish education if we had some changes there as well.
Ian Murray
The hon. Lady’s question is slightly contradictory. On the one hand, she does not like the national insurance contribution increase, which has given the Scottish Government a £4.9 billion boost—the highest settlement in the history of devolution. That money should be going to the frontline of higher education, but it is not. On the other hand, she talks about a more generous funding settlement for universities. She cannot have it both ways. The funding model must change, and the Scotland Office is in touch with all our universities’ principals to see how we can work through this issue. This is a problem with the funding of higher education as a result of SNP policies and the Scottish Government.
Stephen Gethins (Arbroath and Broughty Ferry) (SNP)
I associate myself with the comments about the devastating loss of Pope Francis and the compassion that he showed to the most vulnerable in our society. On a happier note, I wish all friends and family a very happy St George’s day. I also note my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests in relation to higher education.
The Secretary of State will know that the biggest financial impacts on higher education in Scotland have been Westminster policies, which is why the sector in the UK faces some challenges. We have the national insurance increase, Brexit, which I know he passionately opposed—or used to, anyway—and the hostile environment. Labour found common ground with Michael Gove on sticking him into the House of Lords, but it also found common ground with him on his commitment to decentralising migration. That has had a particular impact on the higher education sector, not least in Dundee, which has had the biggest financial hit. Will the Secretary of State let us know what progress he has made on that commitment by Scottish Labour?
Ian Murray
May I give the hon. Gentleman and all his SNP colleagues our deepest condolences on the loss of Christina McKelvie? I think this is the first time that we have had Scottish questions since then.
I say again that the hon. Gentleman and his SNP colleagues voted against the Budget, which delivered an extra £4.9 billion for public services in Scotland. Some of that should have gone to frontline services, including to ensuring that our higher education sector was funded properly in the Scottish context. The SNP is very good at blaming everybody else for powers that do not belong to it, but what it should actually do is get a mirror. In the last seven days, the only increase it has made in using the budget given to it is £20,000 on the salaries of Scottish Government Ministers, who have all singularly failed.
Stephen Gethins
I thank the Secretary of State for his kind remarks about the sad loss of Christina McKelvie. I also note the kind remarks made by the Prime Minister; the whole party is grateful for them.
Since the Labour Government do not want to talk about their commitments, let me help them out a little. We have time this Friday to discuss Scotland’s migration needs, with a Bill backed by the care, hospitality and tourism sectors. Internationalisation in education and research is crucial, so in a spirit of collegiality, instead of pandering to Reform as Scottish Labour too often does on migration and our relationship with the EU, will the Secretary of State work with us ahead of the Bill on Friday so that we can find some common cause to help the higher education sector?
Ian Murray
There is complete denial about the problems in the higher education sector, which is devolved to the Scottish Government. We have made it clear that the immigration system we inherited from the previous Government is not working, that net migration is too high and that the interaction between migration and skills in the labour market is broken, so confidence in the whole system needs to be rebuilt.
Work is under way in government to link the work of Skills England and its equivalents, the Migration Advisory Committee, the Industrial Strategy Council and the Department for Work and Pensions to form a new framework to identify sectors that either do or do not have the adequate workforce, as well as skills strategies for the future workforce. There has been an overreliance on international recruitment. Lots of young people in Scotland—nearly one in six—are not in education, employment or training. That is a shambles. It should be Scotland’s shame, and we need to do something about it.
Clive Jones (Wokingham) (LD)
The Secretary of State for Scotland (Ian Murray)
I am proud of the enormous contribution North sea workers have made to our country. Oil and gas will be an important part of our energy mix for decades to come. We have a workforce who lead the world, and we are determined to secure their long-term future in the energy industry, including oil and gas. The UK Government will soon respond to our recent consultation on supporting the energy transition in the North sea, and I am in the north-east tomorrow, turning on a wind farm and also meeting leaders in the oil and gas sector.
Sir Ashley Fox
If the UK achieves net zero in 2050, we will still consume about 14 billion barrels of oil and gas a year. We are currently on track to produce 4 billion barrels a year. Will the Secretary of State explain why he prefers to import our energy, rather than produce it ourselves?
Ian Murray
The national mission of this Labour Government is to get to clean power by 2030, but that means three things: renewable power, nuclear power, and oil and gas. As I have said already, oil and gas will be with us in the Scottish and UK context for decades to come.
Harriet Cross
A recent report by Offshore Energies UK showed that if the UK oil and gas basin continued to be used until 2050, it could produce half our oil and gas needs. That would do wonders for jobs in the north-east of Scotland, the north-east economy, our energy security and the energy transition, and it would also bring in £12 billion to the Treasury. On top of that, it would bring in £150 billion of economic growth to the UK, which I am sure everyone in this House and the Government would welcome. Will the Secretary of State please have a word with the Energy Secretary and ask him to stop his policies, which are continuing to ruin our oil and gas sector, and for once back north-east Scotland?
Ian Murray
On the oil and gas sector in 2050, I have already mentioned at the Dispatch Box, as has the Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero, that oil and gas will be with us for decades to come, including to 2050.
Tracy Gilbert (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that there is an opportunity for significant economic growth in Scotland from getting right a just transition from oil and gas to clean power? In my constituency, the landing space at the port of Leith previously used by the oil and gas sector has been transformed by investment from Forth Ports into the largest renewable hub in Scotland. Will he join me in welcoming this investment in Leith, and will he outline how his Department will help secure every job possible in the transition from oil and gas?
Ian Murray
I commend my hon. Friend on the work she is doing, particularly in the port of Leith, to ensure that we can have the transition and have it well. She highlights the important thing about this issue and debate: the energy mix requires us to have renewable power and clean energy by 2030, but it also requires us to have nuclear power and oil and gas. The energy mix means that we do it all; it is not either/or.
Gregor Poynton (Livingston) (Lab)
The Secretary of State rightly outlines how important the oil and gas sector is to Scotland, and to the workers and businesses that rely on it, but if we are to have a truly just transition, we need to invest in new technologies such as hydrogen. Will he, therefore, join me in welcoming the shortlisting of the Selms Muir hydrogen project in Livingston for UK Government support, and outline how that will benefit my constituency?
Ian Murray
On 7 April, the UK Government announced that eight Scottish projects had been shortlisted for the next stage of the hydrogen allocation round 2 process. My ministerial colleagues and I look forward to working with industry to deliver our vision for a thriving low-carbon, hydrogen economy in the UK. I commend my hon. Friend on the work he has done in pushing forward the project in his constituency.
Andrew Bowie (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (Con)
Does the Secretary of State agree with the Scottish Labour leader, who says there is no question but that there has to be new oil and gas, or does he agree with his colleague the Energy Secretary, who has banned new licences in the North sea and is overseeing the accelerating decline of the UK’s oil and gas basin?
Ian Murray
The Energy Secretary and his Department are involved in a consultation on the just transition at the moment, but I go back to my earlier answers: if we are to get clean power by 2030 and to have an energy mix in this country, we require oil and gas, we require renewables and we require nuclear. It is a simple process.
Andrew Bowie
I think we all heard that, and I am sure Anas Sarwar did. The Secretary of State was unable to agree with his own leader in Scotland, and is so in hock to the UK Labour party that he cannot stand up for Scottish workers or the Scottish oil and gas industry. It has always been the party interest over the national interest for Labour, with no notice taken of the Scottish Labour party. Ten years ago, the Scottish Labour party was described by its own leader as being simply the “branch office”. Nothing has changed, has it?
Ian Murray
The Government’s sole purpose initially, in their first few months in office, was to clear up the mess that the hon. Gentleman’s party left in this country, including the £22 billion black hole. We will get on with delivering our missions, including clean power by 2030. That is what we are focused on, because that is what is good for jobs, good for bills and good for the environment.
Robin Swann (South Antrim) (UUP)
David Mundell (Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale) (Con)
The Secretary of State for Scotland (Ian Murray)
We know that this will be a concerning time for businesses in Scotland. In 2024, 12.3% of goods exported from Scotland were exported to the United States. That is why the UK Government are focused on negotiating an economic deal with the US. As the Business and Trade Secretary made clear in his statement to the House on 3 April, the Government are resolute in our support for industries throughout the United Kingdom, and Ministers and officials will continue to engage with businesses to understand the impact that these tariffs may have.
David Mundell
May I associate myself with the comments about Pope Francis and Christina McKelvie, and wish you, Mr Speaker, a happy St George’s day? It is very important that we all celebrate our national identities but still come together as one United Kingdom. I hope that the Secretary of State and I were not too optimistic in our last exchange about trade with the US, in which we hoped that the Trump Administration would be a boost for Scottish business in the United States. What is he doing in the UK’s discussions with the United States to ensure that specific Scottish interests, such as those of the whisky industry, are part of the arrangements?
Ian Murray
As I have said at the Dispatch Box before, it is vital that we do all we can to strengthen our diplomatic, cultural and business ties with the United States. I was in Washington and New York for Tartan Week in the week when tariffs were imposed on the rest of the world, and I made the case for Scotch whisky and Scottish businesses in particular. We are engaging with Scottish exporters and industry representatives to assess the potential impact of US tariffs, and remain in contact with US counterparts. Our pragmatic and calm approach has been overwhelmingly welcomed by businesses and industry. We will not address this important issue in a knee-jerk way to get retweets, unlike some others in this House.
Douglas McAllister (West Dunbartonshire) (Lab)
Will the Secretary of State join me in welcoming the pragmatic and calm approach of our Prime Minister to this issue? He is working in the clear interests of businesses and consumers, in contrast to Opposition Members, who seem interested only in social media and quick headlines.
Ian Murray
I could not agree more with my hon. Friend. The pragmatic approach of the Prime Minister and this Government to this issue has been welcomed by industry and businesses right across the United Kingdom. That is in the national interests of the UK. We work very hard together to make sure that the impacts of US tariffs on the UK are not as bad as we thought they might be.
Oral Answers to Questions
Ian Murray Excerpts(4 months, 3 weeks ago)
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Martin Rhodes (Glasgow North) (Lab)
The Secretary of State for Scotland (Ian Murray)
The Scotland Office is supporting the White Ribbon Scotland campaign, which asks people to sign a pledge never to commit, condone or remain silent about violence against women. I have signed it, as has the Under-Secretary of State, my hon. Friend the Member for Midlothian (Kirsty McNeill), and I encourage Scottish Members from across the House to come to Dover House foyer and sign the pledge themselves. This Government have a mission to halve violence against women and girls over the next decade. I am sure that the whole House supports that.
Economic growth is our No. 1 mission in this Government. We announced a historic Budget for Scotland that chose investment over decline and an end to austerity. On top of a record settlement, the UK Government are investing nearly £1.4 billion into local growth projects in Scotland, creating the national wealth fund to support our new industrial strategy and driving the transition to clean energy via Great British Energy, which is headquartered in Aberdeen.
Lillian Jones
The first Labour Budget in 14 years delivered £4.9 billion for Scotland in Barnett consequentials—the biggest settlement since devolution, putting an end to austerity. On top of that, it confirmed £20 million for Kilmarnock in my constituency—I thank the Secretary of State for ensuring that that funding was delivered, despite the £22 billion black hole in the public finances left by the Tories. Does my right hon. Friend agree that the last Tory Government made promises to Scotland that they had no intention of keeping?
Ian Murray
I thank my hon. Friend not only for that question but for the tenacity with which she has backed Kilmarnock to get more funding for her local area in the Budget. It is an absolute disgrace that the previous Government made promises to communities such as Kilmarnock about funding that they never had an intention of keeping. This Government stepped in and funded those projects, chose investment over decline and will deliver growth and higher living standards. The irony is that the Scottish National party voted against the largest funding settlement in the history of devolution yesterday, but will spend it today.
Martin Rhodes
I recently visited Vector Photonics in my constituency, an optical and photonic centre of excellence and a successful spin-out from Glasgow University. What role does the Secretary of State believe there is for start-up and spin-out tech companies in Scotland’s economic growth?
Ian Murray
I wish Vector Photonics well. Supporting start-ups and spin-out tech companies and the world-leading Scottish universities that often incubate them is an important part of this Government’s steadfast commitment to economic growth. It was privilege to see at first hand the importance of these spin-outs during my recent visit to Malaysia and Singapore, when I discussed this with the Scottish universities present in those countries and representatives from the Government and business. Scottish universities punch well above their weight internationally—something we should nurture and be very proud of.
David Mundell (Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale) (Con)
With your indulgence, Mr Speaker, I wish Peter MacMahon well as he steps down as Scottish political editor of ITV Border. Peter has provided outstanding coverage of not just Scottish questions in this Parliament but Scottish politics more generally to my constituents and those across the south of Scotland.
I am sure the Secretary of State will welcome, as I do, the fact that the life of Torness nuclear power station has been extended. That is good for energy security and for the Scottish economy. But given that energy is a reserved matter, what more can he do to bring new nuclear development to Scotland?
Ian Murray
I join the right hon. Gentleman in his tribute to Peter MacMahon as he steps down as the political editor of ITV in the Borders region. He and I share something closely: we both have good faces for radio, but it is always nice to appear with Peter MacMahon on television. This Government are committed to clean power by 2030, and of course, nuclear is part of that mix.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
The Secretary of State will recognise that the rise in national insurance contributions will have a clear impact on economic growth, whether in Scotland or anywhere else in this great United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Representatives from the food sector tell me that food prices will increase by between 15% and 20%. That will impact the ordinary man and woman in the street. What impact does the Minister think the rise in national insurance contributions will have on economic growth?
Ian Murray
Economic growth is the No. 1 mission of this Government, as the hon. Gentleman knows. When the Chancellor came to the Dispatch Box to deliver her Budget, she started on minus £22 billion—that black hole left for us by the previous Government. We chose investment over decline and we chose to end austerity, so tough decisions had to be made.
Andrew Bowie (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (Con)
The Secretary of State has said before and he has said again today that one of his top priorities for the Scotland Office is growth. To grow, the Government need confidence from business. Let us see how that is going: the verdict from Scottish business to his Government’s Budget is in. Offshore Energies UK said that
“this is a difficult day for the sector.”
The Scottish Hospitality Group has said:
“Today’s announcements are a blow to businesses across the country”.
The Scotch Whisky Association said that the increase in spirits duty is a “hammer blow”. The National Farmers Union Scotland has said that the decisions will cause “huge difficulties” and act as a barrier to those wanting to get into farming.
Given those responses, if not from retail, oil and gas, hospitality, food and drink or financial services, from which sector does he think this mythical growth will come?
Ian Murray
I welcome the hon. Gentleman to his place as the new shadow Secretary of State for Scotland and as a shadow Energy Minister—he has something in common with the right hon. Member for Aberdeen South (Stephen Flynn), the leader of the SNP in this House, who also aspires to have two jobs. Unlike the hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine (Andrew Bowie), I have actually run my own business, so I know that running a business needs stability, credibility and confidence. The previous Government crashed the economy, leaving it in tatters, and left business confidence at a record low. We are investing for the future, and businesses back that.
Andrew Bowie
I would take the right hon. Gentleman’s responses more seriously if we did not all see, and indeed have just heard, how damaging his Government’s actions are for the Scottish economy—national insurance increases and punitive tax rises on our most successful industries, putting at risk the future of family farms and the rural economy. As Secretary of State, he would rather make performative gestures such as refusing to cross a picket line outside his Department than meet Scotland’s business leaders. As people, local authorities and businesses await the Scottish Government’s budget later today, does he agree that when it comes to economic incompetence, Scotland really does have, in his Government and in the proven ineptitude of the SNP, the very worst of all worlds?
Ian Murray
I will be corrected if I am wrong, but I think the hon. Gentleman backed former Prime Minister Liz Truss, who, when she was Prime Minister, crashed the economy and left a £22 billion black hole—[Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman shakes his head and says that he did not, but he walked through the Lobby with her when she did those things in her Budget. He did back former Prime Minister Liz Truss. We will take no lectures from the Opposition on how to run the economy or back business. Of course, his party left the highest tax burden on working people in 70 years—another inheritance that this Government will have to try to resolve.
Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD)
I am sure that, like the hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine (Andrew Bowie) and myself, the Secretary of State for Scotland is watching with bated breath for the latest Scottish Budget. After 17 years of incompetence, people are looking for change in Scotland, and the Labour party is promising it. Will the Secretary of State follow the initiative of his Scottish leader, Anas Sarwar, in saying he will reinstate the winter fuel allowance and make representations to the Prime Minister to reconsider other policies, such as the national insurance changes, which are creating instability and uncertainty for the Scottish economy?
Ian Murray
I have a lot of respect for the hon. Lady, but this is another instance where the Opposition parties in this Chamber want all the benefits of the Budget, but they do not want to be able to pay for it. We have announced the largest settlement for Scotland in devolution’s history: £47.7 billion, which is £4.9 billion extra. The Chancellor delivered £4.9 billion extra in Barnett consequentials alone from this Dispatch Box during the Budget—the SNP voted against it, but will spend it today.
Dr Neil Shastri-Hurst (Solihull West and Shirley) (Con)
Douglas McAllister (West Dunbartonshire) (Lab)
The Secretary of State for Scotland (Ian Murray)
Our economic growth mission will raise living standards in Scotland. Our new deal for working people will disproportionately benefit Scots. New protections such as guaranteed hours will help shift workers with up to £600 a year. We are also delivering an annual pay rise of £1,400 for hundreds of thousands of full-time workers in Scotland, and we have committed to the triple lock, which means an extra £470 for pensioners next year. Last week, we paid the first instalment to 7,000 former Scottish miners with their full pension. We will improve living standards through better public services and pay driven by economic growth.
Elaine Stewart
Does the Secretary of State agree that community benefit funds from wind farms contribute to improving living standards for communities? Will he join me in praising the work of the nine community council groups in Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock as a model of the fair distribution of funds to support local apprenticeships and improve living standards across the Cumnock and Doon Valley areas?
Ian Murray
I congratulate not only the nine community councils in my hon. Friend’s area on their initiative, but community councils up and down the country that do so much work on our behalf to ensure that the community benefit fund, derived from local wind farms, makes a tangible difference to local people. I congratulate her on standing up consistently for her community. Our mission is to become a clean energy superpower by 2030, and our communities will be at the heart of that. Communities must benefit from hosting national infrastructure for clean power. That is why right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero is developing guidance on community benefits, which will be published in due course.
Douglas McAllister
Some 100,000 Scots are on zero-hours contracts, with no guarantee of secure hours. Labour’s Employment Rights Bill will address that. Does the Secretary of State agree that 100,000 Scots being in insecure work is a damning indictment of the state the Tories left our economy in and shows that we need a new direction in Holyrood?
Ian Murray
Mr Speaker, you will not be surprised to hear that I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. [Interruption.] Absolutely shocked! The Government inherited not just a fiscal crisis from the previous Government, but an industrial one too. We need more high-quality jobs in Scotland. Between our industrial strategy, our plan to get Scotland working and the employment rights legislation, we will help to deliver that. Do not forget that the SNP Government said that zero-hours contracts were a “positive destination” for work. Our plans to make work pay will have a bigger positive benefit in Scotland than in the rest of the UK. That is the difference in having Scottish Labour MPs on the Government Benches.
Stephen Gethins (Arbroath and Broughty Ferry) (SNP)
I join the Secretary of State for Scotland in welcoming the shadow Secretary of State for Scotland to his place. I congratulate him on his appointment. It does make it difficult sometimes to tell the two of them apart, that being said, especially on days like today. Today, the Scottish Government will continue to protect the most vulnerable in society from the excesses of Westminster cuts. Instead of Tory cuts, it will be Labour cuts to winter fuel payments. Does the Secretary of State agree with the cut to the winter fuel allowance?
Ian Murray
Mr Speaker, I am sorry for such a short response to the hon. Gentleman, but there are 4.9 billion reasons why that question is rubbish.
Stephen Gethins
I have to say I am not surprised. There is huge confusion in the Labour party about the winter fuel allowance. The Scottish Government are doing something about it; the UK Government are not. The Secretary of State did not even know the number of pensioners who would be affected by the winter fuel cut. Labour is now distancing itself from Labour. Vote Labour to stop Labour—is that the message his party is sending out, or should voters just vote for the party that is actually doing something about it?
Ian Murray
I think what the hon. Gentleman is tending to forget is that the winter fuel payment in Scotland is devolved. It was the SNP Scottish Government who decided to means-test it as well. If it was not for the £4.9 billion extra delivered by our Labour Chancellor at this Dispatch Box to end austerity, which the Scottish Government will spend today, they would not be able to make any decisions whatsoever.
Imogen Walker (Hamilton and Clyde Valley) (Lab)
Irene Campbell (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab)
The Secretary of State for Scotland (Ian Murray)
We have reset the relationship with the Scottish Government, and I have met the Deputy First Minister numerous times to discuss the autumn Budget and other issues. Between the moment when my right hon. Friend the Chancellor stood up and the moment when she sat down, Scotland was better off to the tune of £4.9 billion in Barnett consequentials alone—again, money that the SNP voted against, but will spend today. I encourage the Scottish Government to use that money to strengthen frontline services, bring down NHS waiting times and lift attainment in our schools. There can be no more excuses. We ended austerity, and it is time that they followed.
Frank McNally
I thank my right hon. Friend for his answer. A thriving retail, hospitality and leisure sector is critical to brand Scotland. Following the welcome decision in the Budget to ensure a 40% rates relief for RHL businesses in England, what guarantees, if any, has my right hon. Friend had from the Scottish Government that the extra Barnett consequentials linked to non-domestic rates will be passed on in today’s Scottish Budget? Does he agree that any failure to do so would be deeply damaging to the sector?
Ian Murray
I thank my hon. Friend for his question; he is absolutely correct. The UK Budget chose investment over decline, including investment directly in my hon. Friend’s constituency as part of the £200 million towns fund, as well as the biggest Budget settlement in the history of devolution. He is also right to say that our hospitality businesses need the rates relief more than ever. The Scottish Government should use their Budget to deliver growth and investment to help our high streets, and passing on the relief should be the bare minimum.
Irene Campbell
We have delivered the biggest Budget settlement for the Scottish Government in the history of devolution, with, as the House has heard today, more than £4.9 billion of extra funding that can go towards public services. Does the Secretary of State agree that there are no more excuses for the SNP, and that Scots expect and deserve delivery and improvement of our public services?
Ian Murray
Of course, I could not agree more. It is not just the £4.9 billion, but all the other investment that the UK Government made outside the Barnett consequentials. The Labour Government have delivered billions of pounds more for schools and hospitals in Scotland. It is more money than ever before, but the SNP MPs voted against it. They voted to deny Holyrood its biggest ever Budget settlement by voting against the Finance Bill last week, but of course they will happily spend it in their Budget today. They also voted against Great British Energy, which will be based in the SNP leader’s own constituency. Given what we have read about the SNP’s selection processes, I guess the SNP MPs are keener to send themselves to Holyrood than billions of pounds of extra funding.
Brendan O’Hara (Argyll, Bute and South Lochaber) (SNP)
I am sure that pensioners in the Secretary of State’s constituency are as relieved as those in Argyll, Bute and South Lochaber that the Scottish Government’s Budget will introduce a pension-age winter heating payment for all Scottish pensioners. The SNP Government are doing the right thing by Scottish pensioners. Will he join me in urging the Labour Government here in Westminster to do the right thing by pensioners in England and Wales and give them back their winter fuel allowance as well?
Ian Murray
What the hon. Gentleman has just proved is that the winter fuel payment in Scotland is actually devolved.
Pete Wishart (Perth and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
One of the consequences of the Budget was to remove £5 million of regeneration funding for Perth city centre. We got practically nothing from the levelling-up fund, save for that paltry £5 million, which the Secretary of State is taking away. Just what is it that the UK Government have against the city of Perth?
Ian Murray
No projects have been cancelled. The Perth deal is under consideration by the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government and the Treasury. It has not been cancelled; it has merely been paused. The hon. Gentleman should speak to his colleagues in the Scottish Government, who have £4.9 billion extra in Barnett consequentials to spend today. Perhaps he could even have a chat with some of his colleagues sitting next to him, who seem happier in Holyrood than they are here.
Seamus Logan (Aberdeenshire North and Moray East) (SNP)
Oral Answers to Questions
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Richard Foord (Honiton and Sidmouth) (LD)
The Secretary of State for Scotland (Ian Murray)
First, Mr Speaker, I apologise to you and the House for Scottish questions overshadowing other events today.
I was pleased to join the Commonwealth Games Federation last week to confirm that Glasgow will host the Commonwealth games in 2026. It will be yet another wonderful opportunity for Scotland to show how we put on world-class sporting events. I also visited the Sir Chris Hoy velodrome and spoke to the next generation of cyclists, who have been inspired by Sir Chris. I am sure that the whole House will wish to pass on their best wishes to him and his family. I also congratulate Scotland women’s football team, who qualified for the play-offs yesterday after a 4-0 win over Hungary.
I was delighted to join the Prime Minister as he hosted the inaugural meeting of the Council of Nations and Regions at Queen Elizabeth House in Edinburgh earlier this month. We discussed opportunities for attracting long-term inward investment, stabilising the UK economy and creating good jobs. The council demonstrates our commitment to working together to deliver those priorities.
Richard Foord
It is essential that all the UK’s nations and regions have a seat at the council of nations and regions, alongside Scotland, yet areas such as the great south-west, which is home to over 3 million people and has an economy of £80 billion, are being left out because we do not have metro mayors. Will the Secretary of State speak to colleagues in the Cabinet Office to ensure that, on the council, Scotland can work with all the non-mayoral regions of England?
Ian Murray
On 16 July, the Deputy Prime Minister wrote to all areas that do not have a devolution deal to invite them to come forward with a proposal. New mayors established through that process would be eligible to sit on the Council of Nations and Regions. I will make sure that the Deputy Prime Minister forwards that letter to the hon. Gentleman.
Chris Murray (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
It was brilliant to welcome the Prime Minister to my constituency for the first meeting of the Council of Nations and Regions. Following that meeting, are the Government committed to ending the decade and a half of austerity imposed on my constituents by the Conservative and SNP Governments?
Ian Murray
I was delighted to attend the Council of Nations and Regions, held in a Labour constituency in Edinburgh. I can assure my hon. Friend that our manifesto said “no return to austerity”, and that is what we are determined to deliver.
John Lamont (Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk) (Con)
The trade union Unite has issued a joint letter from political leaders across the United Kingdom’s nations and regions opposing Labour’s cut to the winter fuel payment. That letter has been signed by every party at Stormont and by parties in Wales, and the Scottish Conservative leader Russell Findlay also signed it. Was the winter fuel payment even discussed at the Council of Nations and Regions?
Ian Murray
I thought that, with a full House, the shadow Secretary of State would have taken the opportunity to apologise for his Government not only crashing the economy, but leaving a £22 billion black hole. That is something this Government are determined to clean up. [Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. We have not even got to the Budget yet, Mr Bowie, and you are already excited. Come on, Secretary of State.
Ian Murray
I hope that, in a later question, the shadow Secretary of State will apologise at the Dispatch Box to the country for crashing the economy, and to pensioners for what has happened to them as a result.
Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
The Secretary of State for Scotland (Ian Murray)
I was delighted to speak at the Space-Comm expo last month in Glasgow, where I met a wide range of industry members, both national and international, and recently I was fortunate enough to visit the SaxaVord spaceport in Shetland, where I saw wonderful progress. I have also met representatives of Orbex in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency, and will continue to champion Scotland’s spaceports, including in Sutherland in his constituency.
Jamie Stone
The Secretary of State mentions Orbex. At present, it employs 125 people; by 2030, it could employ as many as 500. Is the Secretary of State willing to visit Orbex in Elgin and, indeed, the Sutherland space launch site?
Ian Murray
Elgin is certainly not the final frontier, so I would be very happy to visit. The Minister for Science recently visited the UK Space Agency’s new office in Edinburgh, and during that visit, he echoed my sentiments about the importance of Scotland’s space sector. The Minister for Data Protection and Telecoms has recently met Orbex as well, and I will remain in close contact with my ministerial colleagues to ensure that we back the sector. I am very happy to visit when ministerial time allows.
Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD)
As the Secretary of State knows, I recently had the opportunity to visit California with the Scottish Affairs Committee to look at how that state has created an environment that encourages new space projects. In Scotland, we have a unique opportunity, not least because of developments in Glasgow, but also because the University of Edinburgh is already well respected and part of the programmes at Stanford, New York University, Columbia and NASA. What will the Government do to encourage the creation of that sort of environment in Scotland, and will the University of Edinburgh, given its reputation, be central to that?
Ian Murray
Scotland will be central to the space sector, and I very much welcome the question. We will fully back the space sector, as I said to the Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (Jamie Stone). The Minister for Science has been to the UK Space Agency’s new office in Edinburgh, and the Minister for Data Protection and Telecoms has met Orbex. I have met Orbex and been to Unst in Shetland to visit the spaceport up there. We will fully back this; of course, its potential reaches to infinity and beyond.
Kenneth Stevenson (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
The Secretary of State for Scotland (Ian Murray)
I welcome my hon. Friend to his place; it was a wonderful election result in his constituency of Airdrie and Shotts. Investment in the UK to drive growth is the Government’s No. 1 priority, and we have already started delivery on it. Just this month, we hosted an international investment summit, at which we announced £63 billion of shovel-ready investment across the UK. That includes the likes of Greenvolt’s £2.5 billion investment in Scotland and Iberdrola’s £24 billion investment in green energy. We also announced this week that Glasgow will host the Commonwealth games, which will bring £100 million to the city.
Kenneth Stevenson
I thank the Secretary of State for his answer. It is refreshing to see a Government working across Departments to ensure a pro-worker, pro-business and pro-growth approach that attracts inward investment. After years of Scotland being let down by two poor Governments, how does he see this new Labour Government approach benefiting my constituents in Airdrie and Shotts?
Ian Murray
The No. 1 benefit to my hon. Friend’s constituents in Airdrie and Shotts will be that they have him for their Member, championing them. I am pleased by his welcome for our approach. Airdrie and Shotts has a rich industrial heritage, and a modern industrial strategy will reignite the industrial and technological potential in all our communities. The national wealth fund and Great British Energy will help rebuild Scotland’s industrial base. We want Scotland to be the most attractive part of the UK to invest in, and we will continue to work closely with the Scottish Government to make that a reality. I could not put it better than my hon. Friend did: pro-worker, pro-business and pro-growth—that is this Government.
Chris Law (Dundee Central) (SNP)
Earlier this year, the UK Conservative Government promised a £20 million levelling-up partnership for my city of Dundee, for projects such as the university’s life sciences innovation district, a new campus for Dundee and Angus college, and the Dundee Museum of Transport. Despite having written two letters in the last four months seeking assurances about the funding, I have so far not received a commitment to it, which raises concerns that Labour is about to renege on this commitment. Can the Secretary of State assure me today that these projects and the £20 million for Dundee will be committed to in full?
Ian Murray
The hon. Gentleman will not have to wait long. The Budget is in about an hour’s time, and the Chancellor will lay out all the spending plans in that Budget. The biggest impact on his constituency of Dundee will of course be made by GB Energy, given what that will do to our green energy system; it makes me very surprised that nobody from the SNP voted to back the Bill last night.
Graeme Downie (Dunfermline and Dollar) (Lab)
Kirsteen Sullivan (Bathgate and Linlithgow) (Lab/Co-op)
The Secretary of State for Scotland (Ian Murray)
The crisis that we inherited from the previous Government is not just fiscal but industrial, because neither the previous Government nor the SNP had any proper industrial strategy for Scotland. Our industrial strategy will deliver certainty and stability, which businesses need in order to invest in the high-growth sectors that will drive long-term sustainable economic growth. Well-paid jobs are at the heart of our modern industrial strategy, which is complemented by our plan to make work pay. Our strategy is clear: as a Government, we are pro-business and pro-worker.
Kirsteen Sullivan
The new industrial strategy identifies creative industries as a key sector for UK growth. My constituency is a popular setting for film and TV productions, including the Lockerbie film and “Outlander”, as well as hosting the Pyramids studios. As film and TV make an increasingly important contribution to my constituency’s economy, what steps are the Government taking to support investment in the creative industries in my constituency?
Ian Murray
My hon. Friend mentions “Outlander”, which was filmed in Bathgate and Linlithgow, as well as the Lockerbie bombing film starring Colin Firth. The film “Damaged” is in production there. It stars Samuel L. Jackson—I hope he did a few leaflets for her while he was in her constituency. The creative industries are a jewel in Scotland and the UK’s crown, and there is the independent film tax credit announced earlier this week by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport. Films with distinct homegrown content and talent meet the criteria for that new relief. Productions eligible for the tax break must have a UK writer or director, or be certified as an official UK co-production. That shows that this Government are determined to back our creative industries, and to continue to grow our film and TV industries.
David Mundell (Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale) (Con)
Does the Secretary of State share my anger and disappointment that the SNP Scottish Government dogmatically continue to block new nuclear developments in Scotland, depriving my constituency of important jobs and economic prospects? What can he do through the industrial strategy to ensure that we at least take advantage of decommissioning and supply chain opportunities?
Ian Murray
I have never known the right hon. Gentleman to be angry or disappointed, but I share his anger and disappointment. This Government back our industry. Nuclear will be a major part of the energy mix going forward, and we need to ensure that we have the right balance. GB Energy has been set up, and the related Bill passed Third Reading yesterday. I am disappointed that neither he nor the SNP voted for it, but that is the vehicle through which we will take these issues forward.
Adam Jogee (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Lab)
The Secretary of State for Scotland (Ian Murray)
I welcome my hon. Friend to his place. The Budget, which will be announced by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor shortly, will herald a new era of investment and growth in Scotland. In our first 100 days, we announced the headquarters of GB Energy in Aberdeen, launched the national wealth fund and announced the biggest upgrade of workers’ rights in a generation.
Adam Jogee
Newcastle-under-Lyme is home to many people who left Scotland to build a life, such as my constituent Lee-Bernadette Walford. Can the Secretary of State outline how resetting the relationship between the UK and Scottish Governments is important for economic growth up and down our United Kingdom?
Ian Murray
We do not agree with the Scottish Government on everything—or, indeed, very much at all—but Scots expect us to work together to produce results, and that is what we have tried to do. Yesterday I had my regular meeting with the Deputy First Minister, and this morning I spoke to the Finance Secretary ahead of the Budget. Economic growth is a key area, and I am delighted to highlight shared work on energy, our bringing the Commonwealth games to Glasgow, and the jointly funded £100-million package for the Falkirk and Grangemouth growth deal. Our long- term economic strategy requires the Governments to work together. The Prime Minister and the First Minister have been clear that that is what we are determined to do.
Pete Wishart (Perth and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
The Secretary of State boasted of a £150-million investment fund, only to contradict himself, bizarrely, and say that no such figure existed. Is this Scottish Schrödinger’s funding? Is it perhaps the levelling-up fund referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Dundee Central (Chris Law)?
Ian Murray
I am surprised that the hon. Gentleman was keen to ask a question, given that he did not apply for one in the shuffle—nor did any other SNP Member. It is also surprising that he, with all his experience in the House, wants to spend his time in this new Parliament defending the previous Tory Government’s reckless gambles with the economy.
Mr Speaker
Order. I do not know whether the Chair of the Select Committee is standing or not. Do you want to come in on this question?
Patricia Ferguson (Glasgow West) (Lab)
Yes, thank you, Mr Speaker. Does my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State agree that the Drumchapel levelling-up fund bid and the project that would follow from that would be a good way to promote the economic and social growth of the area?
Ian Murray
My hon. Friend has been a doughty campaigner for the Drumchapel project. She will not have long to wait, as the Chancellor will come to the Dispatch Box shortly and announce the Budget. I am hopeful that all these projects, including some of the anti-poverty projects that my hon. Friend has championed for years in her constituency, come to pass.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
When it comes to promoting economic growth in Scotland, it is clear that the best way to do that is from within this great United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. What is the Minister doing to make that happen, and to convince my SNP colleagues sat in front of me of the best way forward?
Ian Murray
The best way to keep the United Kingdom together is to make sure that this is a successful UK Labour Government, and that is what we are determined to do. May I point the hon. Gentleman to the row in front of him? There are nine SNP MPs left, and we have 37 Scottish Labour MPs. That is how we protect the Union.
John Lamont (Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk) (Con)
The Secretary of State said at the weekend that the Labour Budget
“will herald an era of growth for Scotland”,
but what is going to grow? Is it the tax burden on hard-working Scots, the number of pensioners choosing between heating and eating because they have not got their winter fuel payments, or the number of Labour broken promises? Or will we get all three this afternoon?
Ian Murray
The hon. Gentleman had a second opportunity to apologise for the Conservative party crashing the economy, and the dreadful £22-billion black hole that we inherited, which was hidden from the Office for Budget Responsibility. I ask the shadow Secretary of State to reflect on that before he asks his questions. Of course, he will not have long to wait to find out, as the Chancellor will be here shortly.
John Lamont
There were no answers in that response. Not so long ago, the Secretary of State said that a national insurance rise would have “an enormous impact” on businesses. He also said that
“under Labour, National Insurance wouldn’t go up”.
Tax rises, economic damage and broken promises—are this Labour Government not just the same as the SNP?
Ian Murray
I thought the shadow Secretary of State was just describing his previous Government.
Blair McDougall (East Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)
The Secretary of State for Scotland (Ian Murray)
Scotland is rightly proud of its six world heritage sites. As the hon. Gentleman will appreciate, responsibility for planning decisions for large-scale energy projects in Scotland rests with Scottish Government Ministers. The UK Government work closely with the Scottish Government to deliver for Scotland, while respecting devolution. I meet regularly with my Scottish Government counterparts on these issues.
Mr Campbell
I thank—[Interruption.] I thank the Secretary of State for his reply. In any discussions he has, will he take account of the fact that I have written to UNESCO about the potential for a huge offshore wind farm very close to the Giant’s Causeway and the UNESCO world heritage site there? The Communities Minister in Northern Ireland has also met UNESCO. Will the Secretary of State make representations to ensure that all considerations are taken account of, so that people know the problems that may compromise that world heritage site?
Ian Murray
I am glad that the hon. Member has not lost any of his popularity in the House. It would be inappropriate for me to comment on planning decisions for large-scale energy projects in Scotland, as it is a devolved responsibility. I recognise the importance of considering the protection of local assets when developing renewable projects, particularly at cherished world heritage sites.
Points of Order
Ian Murray Excerpts(6 months, 1 week ago)
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Stephen Flynn (Aberdeen South) (SNP)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker.
In the wee hours of 9 June 2017, I watched on as the most talented, formidable and consequential politician of his generation—a man who had represented the people of Banff and Buchan, Aberdeenshire East and Gordon, a man who had served for two terms as the First Minister of Scotland—lost his parliamentary seat for the first time in 30 years. It is a moment I will never forget, not because of the nature of his defeat but for what happened next, because within just a few moments, Alex Salmond took to the podium and gave a speech that, despite all the despair that those of us in the SNP felt in the room that night, made us feel 10 ft tall. He gave us back the hope that things would get better, and would get better quickly.
Rabbie Burns once wrote:
“The heart ay’s the part ay
That makes us right or wrang.”
Alex gave all of us in the SNP the belief that what we felt in our hearts was worth fighting for—the belief that we could one day become an independent nation. Alex Salmond took us so very close to making that belief a reality.
At this time of profound shock and sorrow, I send my heartfelt personal condolences to Alex’s wife Moira, his wider family, his friends and his legion of fans across the nationalist movement and within the Alba party itself. It is of great personal sorrow to me that Alex Salmond will not live to see Scotland become an independent nation. The challenge for all of us now in the nationalist movement is to make sure that we put good his legacy and deliver the future he so badly fought for throughout his distinguished parliamentary career.
The Secretary of State for Scotland (Ian Murray)
Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. I know that colleagues from across the House will join me today in expressing our shock and sadness at the sudden passing of the right honourable Alex Salmond. He was a Member of this House for 25 years and of the Scottish Parliament for 11 years, and he was of course First Minister of Scotland for seven years. His impact wherever he served was profound.
My thoughts and sympathies are first and foremost with his family and friends and especially his wife Moira, who has already been mentioned. Members might not be aware that the Scotland Office brought Moira and Alex together; they met first as colleagues in that Department before marrying in 1981. My thoughts are also with those whose relationships with him had broken down in recent years and those who are finding this time difficult as they deal with a range of emotions.
It is no secret that some of his happiest periods as a politician were spent in this place, where he made alliances that may to some have seemed surprising. My thoughts today are particularly with the right hon. Member for Goole and Pocklington (Sir David Davis), who I know has lost a close friend, and with Alex’s SNP colleagues.
In the short period during which our careers in this place overlapped, I was always impressed with Alex’s formidable oratory and debating style. No Member from any part of this House was given an easy ride. He sat on the third Bench—where the leader of the SNP, the right hon. Member for Aberdeen South (Stephen Flynn) is today—during the passage of the Scotland Act 2016, chuntering and bantering in my ear every time I stood at the Opposition Dispatch Box. His love of lively discussion extended beyond this Chamber, and I was always keen to keep the topic on our shared passion for Heart of Midlothian football club, rather than constitutional matters.
It is impossible to overstate the impact that Alex had on Scotland and our politics. After half a century of involvement, from student activist to First Minister, whether you agreed or disagreed with his political objectives, there is no denying the rigour and commitment with which he pursued his goals. That commitment saw Alex lead the Scottish National party for a total of 20 years, taking it from a small political movement to the party of government in Scotland. In doing so, he secured a referendum on Scottish independence in 2014, an achievement that would surely have been scarcely believable for a student activist who joined the SNP in the early 1970s and perhaps even for the Alex Salmond who first led the party in the early 1990s.
As someone firmly on the opposite side of that debate, I know that the result of the referendum was a source of huge disappointment to Alex. It was testament to his conviction in the cause that he continued to campaign for Scottish independence with the same passion in Parliament, in the SNP, in the Alba party and in communities across Scotland throughout the past decade. He has left an indelible mark on Scottish politics and public life. I know that many in the independence movement and beyond will miss him. I once again send the deepest sympathies on behalf of the UK Government to all his family and friends at this difficult time.
John Lamont (Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk) (Con)
Further to those points of order, Mr Speaker. On behalf of the Opposition, I would also like to pay my tribute to the right honourable Alex Salmond. As others have said, despite political differences, we were all shocked and saddened to hear the news on Saturday of Alex Salmond’s sudden passing. He and I were both elected to the Scottish Parliament in 2007, and although we disagreed on many of the big issues of the day, not least the question of independence for Scotland, we all respect his dedication to public service as a Member of the Scottish Parliament, a Member of Parliament and as First Minister of Scotland. He was passionate, formidable, impressive and hugely charismatic. Alex Salmond was undoubtedly a giant in Scottish and United Kingdom politics. My sincere sympathies go to his wife Moira and to his wider family, in particular his sister Gail, who lives in Hawick in my constituency in the Scottish Borders. My thoughts and prayers are with them all.
Draft Social Security (Scotland) Act 2018 (Disability Assistance) (Consequential Modifications) Order 2024
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The Secretary of State for Scotland (Ian Murray)
I beg to move,
That the Committee has considered the draft Social Security (Scotland) Act 2018 (Disability Assistance) (Consequential Modifications) Order 2024.
It is a great pleasure to move our first Scotland Office motion and draft order as a Labour Government, and it is an even greater pleasure to have you in the Chair for this historic moment, Mr Efford. It is also great to have so many new Members in the room with us. I do not know what they have done to upset the Whips in order to have to be here at 9.25 on a Wednesday morning, but they are all here and obviously keen to get involved with this wonderful order, which I am sure they have all read.
Laid before the House on 26 July, the draft order is the result of collaborative working between the two Governments of Scotland, and supports the Scottish Government’s decision to introduce pension age disability payments in Scotland later this month. As I said, this is the first Scotland Act order that this new Labour Government have brought before a Committee to approve since our election, and given that it was started under the shadow Secretary of State for Scotland, I suppose it could be argued that it is another example of clearing up his mess.
The order comes in the year of the 25th anniversary of the Scottish Parliament, delivered by the last Labour Government. Devolution happened because of political giants such as the late John Smith and Donald Dewar who believed in a strong Scottish Parliament within the United Kingdom. Those men also believed in the values of co-operation over conflict, and understood that we achieve more by working together than we ever do by standing apart. It is in that spirit that this Government have set out to reset the relationship with the Scottish Government to deliver for the Scottish people. That is what the majority of Scots want, deserve and voted for on 4 July.
The Scotland Act 2016 devolved significant powers to the Scottish Parliament, including responsibility for social security benefits and employment support. The Scottish Government’s introduction of the pension age disability payment under section 31 of the Social Security (Scotland) Act 2018 exercises that responsibility. The Scottish Government, through their Executive agency, Social Security Scotland—that is a bit easier to say at this time of the morning than after three glasses of wine—will administer that benefit in Scotland.
As, at introduction, the pension age disability payment is broadly analogous to attendance allowance in England and Wales, it is the intention of the UK Government that those individuals in receipt of the pension age disability payment should also receive the same treatments in the reserved social security and tax systems as those on attendance allowance. Scottish recipients will transfer from the Department for Work and Pensions to Social Security Scotland.
The order before us today is made under section 104 of the Scotland Act 1998, which allows for necessary amendments to legislation
“in consequence of any provision made by or under any Act of the Scottish Parliament”.
It is therefore the appropriate vehicle to make these technical but important changes to recognise pension age disability payment in reserved systems. Scotland Act orders are a demonstration of devolution in action, and I am pleased to say that the Scotland Office has taken through more than 250 orders since devolution began in 1997.
I will explain the effect that this order will have and the provision that it will make. The order makes amendments to ensure that the pension age disability payment is recognised as a qualifying benefit in the same way as attendance allowance within the reserved social security system, with regard to entitlements to additional reserved UK Government benefits and premiums. This includes the Christmas bonus and carer’s allowance. It means that recipients of pension age disability payment will be entitled to receive the annual £10 Christmas bonus payment if it has not already been paid with another benefit. Should all other eligibility criteria be met, it will also ensure that reserved carer’s allowance can be paid to someone caring for someone in receipt of pension age disability payment in Scotland. It also amends the taxation of trusts with disabled beneficiaries to treat those with beneficiaries in receipt of pension age disability payments in the same way as those with beneficiaries who receive attendance allowance.
Once the order is in force, it will also prevent dual entitlement to benefits paid because of the same needs: individuals entitled to pension age disability payments cannot be entitled to receive personal independence payment, attendance allowance and disability living allowance at the same time. This is in the same way as disability living allowance and personal independence payment are not payable to people in receipt of attendance allowance before the transfer. The order will also prevent overlapping entitlement for pension age disability payments and armed forces independence payments.
Equivalent provision is being made in Northern Ireland in respect of pension age disability payments and to prevent dual entitlement to child disability payment and adult disability payment with equivalent Northern Ireland social security benefits. Child disability payment and adult disability payment are forms of disability assistance paid in Scotland, and introduced by Scottish Ministers under section 31 of the 2018 Act.
In summary, the order makes amendments to UK legislation to support the introduction of pension age disability payments in Scotland. It ensures that the new Scottish benefit can operate effectively and that its recipients are treated equitably. Twenty-five years into the Scottish Parliament, this is devolution in action. The vast majority of Scots want to see their Governments work together to produce better results for them, and that is what we are going to do.
Ian Murray
I thank the shadow Secretary of State for his contribution. He is right to praise the officials for bringing the order forward—they are always the heroes in these processes, as he well knows. I hope that he is not passing the blame on to the officials as well.
The shadow Secretary of State poses an important question about divergence. It will be a matter for the Government to decide what would happen in that case. It is obvious that, at the moment, the pension age disability payment is broadly on the same terms as the attendance allowance, which is why the order has come forward. Should there be a significant divergence in future, it will be up to the UK Government to consider a way to identify those clients in Scotland and to decide what would need to happen on that basis. We will keep the arrangement under review, as we keep all social security arrangements under such orders under review.
I welcome the hon. Member for Edinburgh West back to her place in the House of Commons. All the transfers happened under the Scotland Act 2016, which was eight years ago, so it is a hugely complicated process. We want to ensure that this transfer happens as smoothly as possible; we have seen mistakes and errors in the past, which is why we will keep the order under constant review. My plea to the Scottish Government and to Social Security Scotland is to work with the DWP and the UK Government in partnership to ensure that the transition is as smooth as possible and that nobody loses out or cannot access the system. A major part of the Joseph Rowntree Foundation’s “Poverty in Scotland 2024” review this week was about it being as easy as possible for people to access the system.
I thank hon. Members for their contributions and for being here to debate the order. It demonstrates the continued commitment of the UK Government to work with the Scottish Government to deliver for the people of Scotland.
Question put and agreed to.
Oral Answers to Questions
Ian Murray Excerpts(7 months, 3 weeks ago)
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Gregor Poynton (Livingston) (Lab)
The Secretary of State for Scotland (Ian Murray)
This is, of course, my first Scottish questions on this side of the House, and I am delighted to be joined by so many colleagues from Scotland behind me. I welcome back returning Members from all parties and thank those who have not returned for all their hard work on behalf of their constituents. I thank the former Secretary of State for Scotland, Sir Alister Jack, for his work representing Scotland in Whitehall and the UK Government in Scotland. I also thank all the staff in the Scotland Office for making us so welcome. Their professionalism is unsurpassed.
I am very pleased that we were recently able to welcome 19 female Afghan medical students to Scotland so that they can continue their studies. The work to bring them here was initiated by Sir Alister Jack, and their safe arrival in the UK is a credit to our commitment to helping them.
I congratulate the hon. Member for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk (John Lamont) on his new position. I am sure he will be diligent in holding me to account, and I hope that I was diligent in holding him to account.
I am sure the whole House will join me in congratulating Scotland’s Olympians and Paralympians, who have achieved so much sporting success this summer.
This Government will introduce a new industrial strategy to drive long-term, sustainable growth by securing investment in crucial sectors and industries in all parts of Scotland and the UK, which involves working in close partnership with the Scottish Government. That will support our national mission to have the highest sustained growth in the G7.
Martin Rhodes
An industrial strategy that embraces the jobs of the future must involve our higher education institutions, including the three world-class universities in Glasgow. What are the Government doing to ensure that that is the case?
Ian Murray
I thank my hon. Friend and congratulate him on his wonderful victory in Glasgow North. Scotland’s 19 world-class higher education institutions are an essential part of our economy, culture and global reputation, and they are paramount to the successful delivery of our missions. We punch well above our weight in Scotland, which is something that we need to protect and nurture. By the end of next week, I will have met the principals of all of Scotland’s universities. I want to deepen and strengthen those relationships, and I believe that the knowledge and expertise of those institutions will be crucial to delivering a new industrial strategy and the goals of this new Government.
Frank McNally
Coatbridge and Bellshill has a rich history of heavy industry, but following years of empty rhetoric and empty soundbites from the previous UK Government and the current Scottish Government, there has been a failure to honour the legacy of industry across Scotland and deliver a long-term, sustainable and coherent strategy. What steps will the Secretary of State take to ensure that industrial jobs in Scotland are as much a part of its future as they are of its history?
Ian Murray
I thank my hon. Friend and congratulate him on winning Coatbridge and Bellshill. Scotland and its world-class industrial workforce will play a driving role in our ambition to become a green energy powerhouse in this country. For example, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero, the Scottish Government and I met representatives of Petroineos earlier this week to discuss what support can be provided to ensure a sustainable future for the industrial clusters in the wider Falkirk and Grangemouth region, which is crucial to the entirety of Scotland and the UK. That includes our commitment to fund Project Willow with the Scottish Government.
Gregor Poynton
I thank my right hon. Friend for his response. A UK-wide industrial strategy that supports jobs in Scotland is incredibly vital. However, this week we have heard the concerning news that the Mitsubishi Electric plant in my constituency is looking to reduce its workforce by 440 from its current complement of 1,600. This is a highly skilled workforce creating world-leading products such as air source heat pumps and air conditioning units, which are vital as we look to decarbonise our economy. Through no fault of its own, however, Mitsubishi Electric has seen its order book fall away due to short-term economic pressures. May I ask the Secretary of State to meet the management, workers and me to see what the UK Government can do to support—
Ian Murray
I thank my hon. Friend for his question. I am really sorry to hear of the difficulties facing Mitsubishi Electric’s workforce, and of the uncertainty those workers face during this difficult time. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for his efforts to support the workers in his constituency, and we have talked about this issue already. I will commit as a matter of priority to a meeting with the company and its workforce in the coming weeks.
Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD)
I, too, welcome the Secretary of State to his new position and congratulate him on his appointment to what I can tell him is a splendid job to hold in government. On an industrial strategy, will he focus his ministerial colleagues’ minds on the potential development of tidal stream generation? That provides an enormous opportunity for our manufacturing sector to create a supply chain that is based here in the United Kingdom, rather than having to bring capacity from overseas.
Ian Murray
I agree with the right hon. Gentleman and congratulate him on his role when he was in the Scotland Office. We hope to emulate much of the work that he did. I have met the European Marine Energy Centre and those involved with tidal resources in his constituency. This is critically important to our net zero ambitions and in getting to clean power by 2030. I am due to meet them when I visit his constituency in the coming weeks, and I will make sure that this is top of the agenda.
Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD)
I congratulate the Secretary of State and welcome him to his place. I associate myself with his earlier remarks, particularly about Scotland’s Olympians and Paralympians. I was delighted to hear the recognition in his first answer of the role that our universities will play in a new industrial strategy, which is going to be vital in Scotland, particularly in the light of the recent admissions about the mess that the Scottish National party has made of our economy in Scotland. That is why I was baffled to see the UK Government cutting £800 million from a supercomputer project at the University of Edinburgh that has the potential to support research on drug discovery, climate change and advanced engineering. What discussions did the Secretary of State have with the Chancellor of the Exchequer about the impact of that?
Ian Murray
As the hon. Lady will know, the Chancellor of the Exchequer did a full audit of Government spending in the first weekend that she was in office, and found a £22 billion black hole. The exascale computer that she talks about was announced by two previous Prime Ministers and two previous Chancellors, and indeed was in the Budget in the early part of this year, but no money was allocated and therefore the project has been paused, pending both the Budget on 30 October and the spending review next year.
John Grady (Glasgow East) (Lab)
The Secretary of State for Scotland (Ian Murray)
I congratulate my hon. Friend on winning Glasgow East. The people of Scotland want their two Governments to spend more time fighting for them than fighting each other, which is why resetting the relationship has been a priority for this Government and, indeed, the Prime Minister. I have had numerous productive meetings with Scottish Government Ministers, including the Deputy First Minister. We have had 17 days of visits across Scotland, and seven members of the Cabinet have already visited. There have been dozens of calls between Secretaries of State and Cabinet Secretaries. I look forward to working with the Scottish Government to deliver our shared priorities for the people of Scotland.
John Grady
Scotland’s official economic forecaster, the Scottish Fiscal Commission, has said of the Scottish Budget that
“much of the pressure comes from the Scottish Government’s own decisions.”
Does the Secretary of State agree that the Scottish Government must accept responsibility for the catastrophic state of Scotland’s public finances?
Ian Murray
My hon. Friend is right; the Scottish Fiscal Commission did say that. While this new Government are cleaning up the mess of the previous Conservative Government, the SNP seems to be cleaning up its own mess. In 2023, Audit Scotland said:
“The Scottish Government’s projections suggest that it cannot afford to pay for public services in their current form.”
As we have heard, the IFS said this morning that SNP decisions have reduced the tax take rather than increase it. This is about treating taxpayers’ money with respect and being honest about the tough choices we face. An honest assessment of the SNP Government’s Budget is that these problems have been stored up for years. Tough decisions have been kicked into the long grass, and money has been spent recklessly. It is a problem of the SNP’s own making, and the Scottish people will suffer as the SNP tries to clear it up.
John Lamont (Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk) (Con)
I, too, start by congratulating both Ministers on their appointment to the Scotland Office. I loved my time at the Scotland Office, and I know they will be very well supported by the Department’s excellent team of officials, some of whom are in the Box today.
Labour plans to end the winter fuel payment, taking money away from elderly people who have worked all their days. Age Scotland has said:
“At minimum, a quarter of a million pensioners in Scotland on the lowest incomes or living in fuel poverty will no longer receive this vital financial support over the winter months, while hundreds of thousands more on modest incomes are going to struggle”.
Labour has cut the winter fuel payment across the UK, and the SNP is doing Labour’s dirty work in Scotland. What does the Minister have to say to the 250,000 elderly Scots who are in poverty and struggling with the decisions of Labour and the SNP?
Ian Murray
I welcome the shadow Secretary of State to his new post.
During the inheritance statement a few weeks ago, the Chancellor set out how the current Government are fixing the foundations and trying to clear up the dreadful legacy left by the Government of which the hon. Gentleman was a member. The Chancellor did not want or expect to make these decisions, but they had to be made to try to get the finances in balance and to make sure that we can fix the foundations to deliver on our manifesto. That is the legacy of the previous Government and, as I said in my previous answer, the SNP has made a mess of the public finances over the last 17 years. As we saw in the Scottish Parliament yesterday, the SNP has one hell of a mess to clear up, and it is Scottish pensioners and the Scottish people who will pay the price.
John Lamont
Labour is taking a leaf from the SNP playbook by refusing to take responsibility for its own actions. This is happening because of choices made by this Labour Government that have been passed on by the SNP in Edinburgh. Labour’s election slogan was all about change and, under this Labour Government, pensioners do not seem to have any change to spare. A woman called Lesley told Age Scotland that the winter fuel payment
“is literally a life saver for us.”
Another person, Brian, told Age Scotland:
“I would freeze without it, or go hungry.”
Is this the change that Labour meant—taking money away from struggling pensioners?
Ian Murray
There seems to be no recognition or apology from the shadow Secretary of State for the legacy his party has left this Government to try to clear up. We knew about the massive overspend in public services by the previous Government, and the audit the Chancellor did in her first weekend in office revealed the £22 billion black hole. These things have to be fixed. We did not expect or want to make such tough decisions, but we have had to make them to fix the foundations of our economy.
Stephen Gethins (Arbroath and Broughty Ferry) (SNP)
May I add my congratulations to the Secretary of State? I know it has not always been easy and sometimes it has been a lonely path, so I offer my personal congratulations to him on his appointment and to the hon. Member for Midlothian (Kirsty McNeill) on taking her place.
I will take the Secretary of State at face value on improving the relationship between the Scottish and UK Governments, but he will be aware of the devastating consequences of the cuts in the winter fuel payment for pensioners in both our constituencies and across Scotland. In order to work better with the Scottish Government, will he do better than giving them just 90 minutes’ notice next time?
Ian Murray
I welcome the hon. Gentleman back to his place, having won the election for the new constituency of Arbroath and Broughty Ferry. He should look at what the Finance Secretary said in the Scottish Parliament yesterday: she announced half a billion pounds of cuts, including £120 million in health services and £20 million in mental health services, and she has sold the family inheritance by using the ScotWind money to plug the additional funding gaps in the budget. Audit Scotland and the Institute for Fiscal Studies have been clear that this is a problem of the Scottish Government’s own making, so if they want to reset the relationship, they can start by taking responsibility for their own actions.
Stephen Gethins (Arbroath and Broughty Ferry) (SNP)
The Secretary of State for Scotland (Ian Murray)
I am committed to working with the Scottish Government and have already met the Deputy First Minister four times in eight weeks. Resetting the relationship between Scotland’s two Governments is crucial to driving economic growth. Just last week, my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer was in Glasgow and met the First Minister. The Prime Minister has made resetting the relationship a key part of his new way of working in government. He has met with the First Minister to have those discussions and with members of the business community to discuss growing the Scottish economy. It is the choice of all of us to grow the Scottish economy and something we all need to do together.
Stephen Gethins
The Secretary of State will be aware that macroeconomic policy sits here in Westminster and that decisions taken here have a huge impact. We have worked on this issue before, so does he agree with the SNP that being outside the customs union and the single market is bad for growth in the Scottish economy, or does he agree with the Conservatives and their Reform party colleagues that it has been good for the Scottish economy?
Ian Murray
The hon. Gentleman is taking no responsibility for the decisions that his party makes in the Scottish Government. We saw that yesterday with them plugging the hole in their own public finances. The IFS has been clear that the decisions the Scottish Government have made have taken the tax take down in Scotland, despite being it being the highest taxed part of the country. If we are to reset this relationship, they have to start off by taking accountability and responsibility for their own decisions.
Rachel Taylor (North Warwickshire and Bedworth) (Lab)
Sport has played an essential role in economic growth in Scotland. What steps will the Secretary of State take to ensure that the legacy of Sir Andy Murray is recognised in Scotland?
Ian Murray
I would like to announce to the House that Andy Murray and I are not related, despite the fact that we share the same physique [Laughter.] I assure the House that the Scotland Office and this Government will do all we can to ensure that the wonderful legacy of one of Britain’s best sportspeople of all time is maintained.
Torcuil Crichton (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (Lab)
Richard Baker (Glenrothes and Mid Fife) (Lab)
The Secretary of State for Scotland (Ian Murray)
Scotland is at the forefront of this Government’s mission to make Britain a clean energy superpower by 2030. We will headquarter Great British Energy, a new publicly owned clean energy company, capitalised with £8.3 billion, in Scotland. That will help create thousands of jobs, and deliver energy security and lower prices permanently for consumers. Just this week, the sixth allocation for the contracts for difference scheme was announced, with over 130 renewable projects awarded contracts and 20% of those projects based in Scotland.
Torcuil Crichton
I welcome the Secretary of State to his position. We watched him for many lonely years as he held the fort on his own. He was always outnumbered, but never outgunned. Will he now use the full firepower of the Scotland Office to convince Cabinet colleagues and industry players of the vital role and potential of the Arnish fabrication yard in Stornoway and its sister yard in Methil, both of which are coming up for sale as part of the going to market of Harland & Wolff? Will he assure workers at the Arnish yard and at Stornoway port that they will play a big role in the renewables future and in GB Energy?
Ian Murray
I thank my hon. Friend for that question, and congratulate him on winning the Western Isles. He is Mr Western Isles, and he will be a champion for those islands.
The Government will continue to engage with Harland & Wolff, local MPs and the Scottish Government to monitor the situation and support a resolution that provides long-term certainty for the yards and workforces across the whole UK, with all four yards across the UK being treated as one. The Under-Secretary of State for Scotland, my hon. Friend the Member for Midlothian (Kirsty McNeill), recently visited the Arnish yard. I have visited the Methil yard twice—once before the election and once during the election—and I have regular meetings with the Deputy First Minister on this issue and hope to meet her again in the coming weeks. We will do all we can to protect these yards.
Gordon McKee
Having spent many years working for my right hon. Friend when he was on the Opposition Benches, may I welcome him to his position as Secretary of State for Scotland? The creation of GB Energy will support 50,000 new jobs across Scotland. It will deliver lower household bills and help us meet our net zero obligations. Given that Glasgow already has a fantastic renewables industry, may I ask what work he has done with his Cabinet colleagues to ensure that GB Energy supports jobs in Glasgow?
Ian Murray
I congratulate my hon. Friend on winning his seat in Glasgow South. His question is much better than any that he ever wrote for me.
My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero is due to make an announcement on the location of GB Energy very soon. I regret that, in the interim, I can say no more than that, although I am sure that my hon. Friend’s words of encouragement in respect of Glasgow will not have escaped the attention of my Cabinet colleagues. I can announce exclusively to the House today, Mr Speaker, that GB Energy will be headquartered in Scotland.
Richard Baker
My right hon. Friend will be aware that I have been working closely with Unite, GMB and local management at the Methil yard in my constituency during the restructuring process at Harland & Wolff. Does he agree that 200 skilled workers at Methil and those at Arnish have a vital contribution to make to our ambitions to grow our renewable sector, and also that all stakeholders have a vital role in securing the long-term future of these yards?
Ian Murray
I congratulate my hon. Friend on winning Glenrothes and Mid Fife. I acknowledge his efforts, and those of many hon. Friends in the House and of people in the local area, advocating for the Methil fabrication yard. The yard, along with many others like it, will have a key role in fulfilling our ambition for Scotland and the UK to become a green energy powerhouse. In addition to GB Energy, there is the national wealth fund, which will help unlock further investment opportunities for ports and heavy industry, and manufacturing companies will have a crucial role to play in creating jobs in our transition to net zero. I have been to the Methil plant twice. It has a world-class workforce, and I can assure them that we will do everything we possibly can to make sure that they have a bright future.
John Cooper (Dumfries and Galloway) (Con)
I welcome the Secretary of State to his place and thank him for his generous words about the work of Sir Alister Jack, who was previously in that role. Does the right hon. Gentleman share my consternation this morning that two sanctioned Russian oligarchs now have a share in Harbour Energy, our largest producer of North sea oil and gas? That seems incredible at this time, not least because the company that they are using to have this stake—LetterOne—was forced to divest itself of a broadband company because it was a threat to national security. Can we look again at this decision?
Ian Murray
May I welcome the hon. Gentleman to his place and congratulate him on winning his seat? The Foreign Secretary is sitting two seats along from me, and I am sure that he will have heard what the hon. Gentleman said. I am sure that the issue is a concern to everyone in the House, and we will make sure that a written response is given to the hon. Gentleman as soon as possible.
John Lamont (Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk) (Con)
The Rosebank oilfield will provide more than £6 billion of investment in UK-based businesses. The Jackdaw oilfield will cater for the energy needs of 1.4 million UK households. This Labour Government are jeopardising all that investment, energy and jobs by dropping the UK Government’s opposition to the judicial review, which aims to block these vital energy projects. Can the Secretary of State seriously tell the 90,000 people whose jobs rely on oil and gas in Scotland that the future of this crucial industry is secure under Labour, when it is his Government’s policy to oppose all new developments?
Ian Murray
I thank the shadow Secretary of State for his question, but he should stop scaremongering, given the 90,000-strong workforce in the North sea. Oil and gas will be with us for decades to come. The Finch decision, to which he refers, was something that this Government had to consider very carefully. The Secretary of State has started a consultation on consenting, which will affect Jackdaw and, indeed, Rosebank, and that should conclude within the next six months.
Brendan O'Hara (Argyll, Bute and South Lochaber) (SNP)
Government’s Legislative Programme: Scotland
Ian Murray Excerpts(9 months, 1 week ago)
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The Secretary of State for Scotland (Ian Murray)
The UK Government’s legislative programme for the first session was outlined at the state opening of Parliament on Wednesday 17 July. This statement provides a summary of the programme and its application to Scotland. It does not include draft Bills, Law Commission Bills, or Finance Bills.
The UK Government are committed to delivering change for Scotland. This legislative programme delivers on our missions to enable the best outcomes for the people of our four nations. This includes kick-starting economic growth, making Britain a clean energy superpower, breaking down barriers to opportunity, and keeping people safe.
Meaningful collaboration built on mutual respect will be key to delivering this change. We will reset the relationship with the Scottish Government. Through effective joint working, we can deliver better results for people across the UK. Central to this is our commitment to strengthen the Sewel convention by setting out a new memorandum of understanding outlining how the nations will work together for the common good. Now is also the time to conduct a reset in our public life; a clean-up that ensures the highest standards of integrity and honesty. We will legislate to remove hereditary peers from the House of Lords.
Scotland will be at the heart of our mission to make Britain a clean energy superpower. Great British Energy, a new publicly owned energy company, will make Britain a world leader in energy technologies, create jobs, and build supply chains in every corner of the UK. Scotland will be the powerhouse of our mission, with Great British Energy headquartered there.
We are committed to supporting economic growth across Scotland and will continue to work in collaboration with the Scottish Government, local authorities and other partners to deliver this. Our new national wealth fund will have a remit to support our growth and clean energy missions, making transformative investments across every part of the country. We will also bring forward legislation to improve workers’ rights, to protect public funds and end the requirement to franchise rail services. This change will come ahead of a broader Bill to reform the railways and establish Great British Railways.
In this legislative Session, we will embed economic stability to create the conditions for long-term growth that will improve the lives and opportunities of people in Scotland and across the United Kingdom. We will invest in our infrastructure, deliver the public services that people need, secure our borders and restore order to the asylum system so that it operates swiftly, firmly and fairly. We are boosting our energy security to cut bills and ensuring that work pays with our new deal for working people. In addition, we will protect the health of people across the UK by introducing a generational ban on smoking, and imposing limits on the sale and marketing of vapes, taking a landmark step in creating a smoke-free UK.
The following Bills will extend and apply to Scotland (either in full or in part):
Armed Forces Commissioner Bill
Bank Resolution (Recapitalisation) Bill
Border Security, Asylum and Immigration Bill
Budget Responsibility Bill
Commonwealth Parliamentary Association and International Committee of the Red Cross (Status) Bill
Digital Information and Smart Data Bill
Cyber Security and Resilience Bill
Employment Rights Bill
Great British Energy Bill
Hillsborough Law
House of Lords (Hereditary Peers) Bill
Lords Spiritual (Women) Act 2015 (Extension) Bill
National Wealth Fund Bill
Passenger Railway Services (Public Ownership) Bill
Pension Schemes Bill
Planning and Infrastructure Bill
Product Safety and Metrology Bill
Railways Bill
Renters Rights Bill
Sustainable Aviation Fuel (Revenue Support Mechanism) Bill
Terrorism (Protection of Premises) Bill
Tobacco and Vapes Bill
The UK Government will work collaboratively with the Scottish Government to secure the legislative consent of the Scottish Parliament where appropriate.
[HCWS9]
Constitutional Law
Ian Murray Excerpts(11 months ago)
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Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
The fact that we are considering this statutory instrument on the Floor of the House, when such instruments are normally done in Committee, demonstrates that the Government have absolutely nothing left to bring to the Chamber. In fact, this debate was scheduled for a Committee Room upstairs but was subsequently cancelled and brought to the Floor of the House. It shows that the Government are desperate to try to fill time in this Chamber rather than send us all away early again. I know I speak for the Opposition and millions of people up and down the country when I say that this nonsense has to end: a general election must be called soon on this zombie Government. They may be able to run for now, but they certainly cannot hide. The people are fed up of 14 years of complete failure.
We are here to consider increased borrowing limits for the Scottish Government. I wonder whether the Minister could answer a few questions. As per the August 2023 fiscal framework agreement, which came two years late, can the Minister tell the House how the increase amounts have been calculated?
Secondly, the fiscal framework allows for £3 billion, and slightly more given this order of debt for capital purposes at £450 million a year. How much of that just over £3 billion has been drawn down to this stage?
Thirdly, the resource-borrowing powers can be drawn down by up to £600 million per annum up to a maximum of just over £1.75 billion. How much of that has been drawn down? The reason I ask that latter question is that at the Finance and Public Administration Committee of the Scottish Parliament this morning, the permanent secretary warned the First Minister that there is a looming £1.9 billion fiscal deficit in the Scottish Government, because of spending promises that have been made by the current Scottish Government, and that the First Minister will have to come to Parliament regarding the redrawing of those priorities to try to reduce that £1.9 billion fiscal deficit.
Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Does the hon. Member agree that, notwithstanding the fact that the fiscal framework has brought the two Governments to the table, the problems we are seeing with spending and the constant arguments are not in the best interests of the people of Scotland? What they really need is two Governments who work more closely together and in concert for Scotland.
Ian Murray
I could not agree more. If the Prime Minister wishes to go and see His Majesty the King at some point soon, we might get at least one half of those two Governments working together after the general election.
Angus Brendan MacNeil
What do he and the hon. Member for Edinburgh West (Christine Jardine) have against the Republic of Ireland? It has one Government, which is doing very well and has a budget surplus, unlike the UK that has the mishmash and a mess, with a Scotland underperforming in the UK and looking at an Ireland that is overperforming having left the UK. There are lessons to be learned for himself and other colleagues.
Ian Murray
There are certainly lessons to be learned for the UK: not to have a Tory Government. If we had a Labour Government, things would be in a much better position. I am sure the hon. Gentleman will be encouraging all his constituents to vote Labour at the general election in order to make that change.
My fourth question to the Minister is that the fiscal framework of August 2023 suggests that these figures will be increased by inflation from 2024-25 onwards. Will the Minister confirm that is correct? What inflationary measure will be used to do that? Every household in Scotland, and up and down the UK, knows the impact the current Government have had on borrowing overall. Crashing the economy and trebling the national debt has had consequences for everyone. The interest payments on Government debt alone as a share of the economy are now the highest since in early 1950s.
Thanks to the former Prime Minister’s disastrous premiership, interest rates that homeowners are now paying have gone through the roof, taking away home ownership for many in this country. We are in the midst of a cost of living crisis that was made in Downing Street but is being paid for by working people all over the country. If it is possible to sum up this dreadful Government in one individual’s actions and behaviours, it is the crashing of the economy, accompanied by the highest tax burden on working people in 70 years, and the largest fall in living standards since records began in the 1950s. They are reckless, incompetent and unapologetic for the chaos they have wrought across the country.
But the Government seem to want to go further. They have looked at the former Prime Minister’s chaos inflicted on the country by the £45 billion unfunded tax cuts for the richest, and decided to trump that with a £46 billion unfunded tax cut to scrap national insurance, but will not tell us how they will pay for it. [Interruption.] There is chuntering from the Treasury Bench. Instead of chuntering, perhaps they will tell us how they will pay for that £46 billion unfunded commitment. When the Minister responds, will he take the opportunity of this rare occasion of a Scottish statutory instrument being discussed on the Floor of the House to answer my fifth question, about where the money for the £46 billion unfunded commitment will come from?
We have had three failed Prime Ministers in the UK over as many years, an embarrassing statistic the SNP could not help but match, with three First Ministers in Scotland in as many years. They have brought back former leaders to take charge, although the party in government in this Parliament have not done that for the top job, or certainly not for now anyway. Scotland is governed by a man who is responsible for many of the problems we face in the first place—he will have to take charge of these borrowing requirements—the Education Secretary who wrecked our education system, the Finance Secretary who decimated local government finance and the leader who led them to their worst ever election result.
Edward Timpson (Eddisbury) (Con)
I am very much enjoying the hon. Gentleman’s jousting, although I suspect he will have to wait quite a while before he gets to do it again for real in the general election, but will he be supporting that statutory instrument today?
Ian Murray
Yes, we will be supporting the statutory instrument, but it is worth putting it into the context of where these borrowing powers will have to be spent and the requirements of that. I know the hon. Gentleman would hardly wish to defend the Scottish Government’s record on spending; Members on the Opposition Benches certainly will not do that. What is happening in Scotland because of having two bad Governments needs to be completely exposed—[Interruption.] Oh, SNP Members are awake.
Ronnie Cowan (Inverclyde) (SNP)
As we look towards a general election and the almost certain prospect of a Labour Government, with Labour Members switching places with those now on the Government Benches, would the hon. Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) be prepared to commit a Labour Government to restoring the Scottish block grant?
Ian Murray
I would commit the Labour Government to the fiscal framework agreement that has already been put in place. It was negotiated and agreed in August 2023, and lays out the fiscal framework for the years ahead. When Labour Members move from the Opposition to the Government Benches come the general election, I am not sure if the hon. Member for Inverclyde (Ronnie Cowan) will be still be in his place. We have had 14 years of Conservative failure in this place and 17 years of SNP failure in Scotland too. That is the context in which these orders come forward. There is an enormous black hole in Scotland’s public finances, while one in six Scots are on NHS waiting lists. Real earnings in Scotland today are lower than they were in 2007. The only response to this crisis from either Government has been to increase taxes.
Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP)
I wonder whether the hon. Member agrees with his shadow Health Secretary who said at the weekend that, right across the UK, every part of the NHS is in crisis. All roads lead back to Westminster, because, even though this is a devolved matter, decisions taken in Westminster have an impact on the NHS across the whole country.
Ian Murray
The conclusion is that all roads must lead to a Labour Government to resolve the issue. That is where we end up.
The only response to this crisis from either Government has been to increase taxes. [Interruption.] Those on the Treasury Bench are still chuntering. I wonder whether they can still chunter about where the £46 billion unfunded spending commitments are going to come from. Those on the Treasury Bench have presided over the highest tax burden on working people in 70 years, and the SNP went even further, with any Scot earning over £28,500 a year paying more tax than anywhere else in the UK—that is nurses, teachers, police officers, firefighters and council workers all paying for their Government’s incompetence.
Angus Brendan MacNeil
The hon. Gentleman earlier mentioned the previous Prime Minister and the high interest rates in the sterling zone. Will he apologise for buddying up with the Tories in 2014, wearing his Union Jack jacket, saying that Scotland should stick with the Tory Government, stick with the risk of a Prime Minister doing what she did, and stick with the risk of a currency zone that has hammered people’s mortgages and hammered people’s standards of living. He can apologise from the Dispatch Box if he wants.
Ian Murray
Mr Deputy Speaker, I am so looking forward to the hon. Gentleman bringing forward yet another financial perspective to what independence would look like, but it would absolutely trash our economy and make what is currently going on look like a picnic in the park. He cannot answer any of the basic questions about how that would work.
At the same time as hammering working people in Scotland with tax increases, the SNP has U-turned on its U-turn and, again, will not take any more money from the oil and gas giants’ excess profits, but will, instead, take more money from our nurses in income tax. Working people are paying the price and getting less. The truth is that this motion today is not what the people of Scotland and the UK are calling out for; they are speaking with clarity that they want change—change from a cruel and failing Conservative Government and change from a tired and failing SNP Administration. They want change. Let us get this general election and deliver that change.
Oral Answers to Questions
Ian Murray Excerpts(11 months, 3 weeks ago)
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Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
On this International Workers’ Day, May Day, Scottish Television journalists are striking for fair pay. I am sure the Secretary of State will join me in insisting that STV gets back around the table with its journalists to thrash out an acceptable deal. Given all the news that is happening this week, we need them back on the television.
I too pay tribute to the outgoing First Minister, Humza Yousaf. We may not have agreed on everything, but his historic appointment marked a pivotal moment in our multicultural public life in Scotland, and I wish him and his family well for the future.
The spring Budget was just another moment that exposed the damage done by the chaos of the former Prime Minister’s kamikaze Budget. The Secretary of State has been spinning that it brings taxes down, but is it not the case that the tax burden in Scotland and across the rest of the UK continues to rise? The Prime Minister now wants to mirror his irresponsible predecessor with an unfunded £46 billion policy to get rid of national insurance altogether. The Secretary of State sits around the Cabinet table, so which one of these have they discussed to pay for this: pensioners, the NHS or income tax rises?
Mr Jack
I agree with the hon. Gentleman that the tax burden in Scotland is too high and rising, and people are paying more and getting less. Fortunately, the UK Government have taken the decision to partially offset that, not through income tax cuts but through national insurance cuts, with 4p coming off NI. To pick up on his last point, he was referring to an aspiration that this Government have. We have already reduced NI by 4p, a third, and we aspire to remove it altogether, because it is a tax on jobs.
Ian Murray
This is a £46 billion, unfunded aspiration, and the Secretary of State and the Government will not tell us where they will get the money from. Scotland is trapped between two chaotic and failing Governments; we have had three Prime Ministers, and we will have had three First Ministers, in as many years. All the while, the right hon. Member for Aberdeen South (Stephen Flynn) thinks he is already the First Minister and calling the shots, although he has been shooting himself firmly in the foot. What is abundantly clear to the people of Scotland is that neither the Scottish Government nor the UK Government are even interested in delivering the change that Scotland needs. With neither Government wanting to let the people decide, will the Secretary of State tell the House who he thinks is most scared of a general election, the Tories or the Scottish National party?
Mr Jack
We absolutely do not fear an election, whether for Holyrood or a general election. As I watch the nationalists implode again, I say, “Bring it on.” I hear them say the same from a sedentary position. [Interruption.] Bring it on! Chaps and chapesses over there, start polishing up your CVs.