Devolution (Immigration) (Scotland) Bill
(Limited Text - Ministerial Extracts only)
Read Full debate13:31 - The House divided: - Ayes: 12 / Noes: 50 - Question accordingly negatived.
Stephen Gethins
I will maybe leave aside some of the hon. Lady’s sums—I am not sure whether she has been reading Labour briefings—but she does make a valuable point about rural areas, and I acknowledge her commitment to her constituency and her rural background. I commend her for the way she conducts herself in this place. There are a number of points here.
We know that bringing workers to rural areas, and the very high threshold to bring people into the country, is a challenge—that is not new—which is why so many rural industries have been calling out for a Scottish visa system to plug that gap. What is Scottish Government policy? Well, we have talked with our Labour colleagues —although not, I would expect, the Conservative party, for ideological reasons—about having a more progressive taxation system in which those who earn less pay less, and those who earn more pay more. I will not criticise the hon. Member for Gordon and Buchan (Harriet Cross), who stood for election on a Conservative manifesto and won, but I am always surprised that the Labour party does not take the opportunity to endorse such a system more strongly.
Some 70% of the Scottish Government’s budget still comes in the form of a block grant from Westminster—that is a huge amount. For all the talk we have heard of decentralisation, empowerment and so on, why do we not have a more sensible approach to that?
The Secretary of State for Scotland (Ian Murray)
The hon. Gentleman rightly mentions the block grant. If, as he says—not entirely correctly—the block grant is the largest part of the Scottish budget, why did he vote against the Budget in which the block grant gave the Scottish Government £4.9 billion extra?
Stephen Gethins
What I find striking is that the Scottish Government have not only had to receive their block grant, rather than making these decisions for ourselves, which those of us on the SNP Benches would like to do, but have spent years with Tory austerity and are staring down the barrel of cuts elsewhere. The Secretary of State might quote figures in terms of the cash, but after years and years of Tory government that are not being helped by the Labour party, by the cuts that have come about as a result of Brexit, which they now endorse, by the cut to the winter fuel allowance that Labour brought in, which the Scottish Government brought in measures to offset—
Stephen Gethins
I am glad if we can get back to the Bill. I am struck that Labour Members never seem to be that keen to talk about the areas for which they have responsibility. They talk about the Scottish Government an awful lot but not the areas for which they have responsibility. This Bill speaks to a specific Scottish solution that could be brought in to meet particular Scottish needs, and it is one that, to be fair, Scottish Labour has talked about.
Let me move on to talk about think-tanks and other organisations. The Law Society of Scotland—
Stephen Gethins
I will give way to the Secretary of State one more time, and then I will move on to these other organisations.
Ian Murray
The hon. Gentleman has been very generous in giving way when it suited him to do so. All the things he is talking about are not included in the Bill. It is a simple, one-line Bill that would devolve the entire immigration system to Scotland. For Members who might not know how the Scotland Act 1998 operates, let me explain that if a matter is contained in schedule 5 to that Act, it is reserved, and if it is not, it is deemed to be devolved. This Bill is just devolving the entire immigration system, so the individual issues relating to visas that he is talking about are irrelevant to this debate.
Stephen Gethins
I thank the Secretary of State, because that was a valuable intervention and he raises a good point—[Interruption.] I am glad that he is paying attention now. I raised that point at the start of the debate, when I said that this is not ideal. It is a short Bill that was proposed some time ago and, as I have said, I am very open to it being amended. I hope we will vote on this today and I ask the Secretary of State to meet me so that he and I can sit down with his officials, and Home Office officials if they will listen to him, and bring them in. I am looking to the Secretary of State and hope that he will today give that commitment to meet me so that we get something that works for his party, can work for others and can hopefully work for the sector as well. [Interruption.] I will take that as a yes, so I am very glad and thank him for being so constructive.
Ian Murray
The hon. Gentleman has to be clear with the House about the purpose of the Bill, because we will have to vote on it today if the Division bells ring. If the Bill passes, it will merely remove immigration from schedule 5 of the Scotland Act 1998, which would devolve immigration to the Scottish Government—yes or no?
Pete Wishart
Okay. Right, let us look at Scotland’s population then. Scotland’s population is probably in the region of 5.5 million. Some estimates are 5.43 million and some are 5.7 million. We have been in population decline since the latter part of the 20th century. This is an issue that particularly interests and excites me. I think the Scottish Affairs Committee has done three reports on it, and I think Secretary of State served on the Committee during one of the inquiries on Scotland’s migration issues. Those were helpful reports, and hopefully they add to the debate. I am glad that a few people have referenced them. We got down to the serious business of trying to address the issue. I congratulate the Blair Government, which was visionary when it came to immigration; it was imaginative. Tony Blair opened up eastern Europe through accession, which helped our issues in Scotland. For a while, that reversed our long-term population decline.
The Tony Blair Government also gave us fresh talent. It gave people an opportunity to come to study at one of our world-class universities and stay and contribute to the Scottish economy for a period of their early lives. It was fantastic. It was backed by the UK Government and the Scottish Government, with overwhelming support from hon. Members in this House. The policy was then subsumed by a general UK policy, which meant that we lost our advantage.
Pete Wishart
I know that fresh talent is exciting and of interest to the Secretary of State, so I give way to him.
Ian Murray
I sat on the Scottish Affairs Committee when it was chaired by the hon. Gentleman and produced one of those reports on migration and depopulation in Scotland—I think it was during the 2015 to 2017 Parliament —and I remember that one of the conclusions of the report was that the biggest type of migration out of Scotland was 19 to 26-year-olds migrating to the rest of the UK. We never answered why.
Pete Wishart
Absolutely. I was going to come to that, but it is good to look at that now. There are reasons for that, although I am not entirely clear about them; the Committee did not get to the heart of that in its analysis. We live in a United Kingdom and have a massive mega-city, London, so there is always the allure for young Scots to come down to London. I did it myself, and I am pretty certain that the Secretary of State spent a good part of his young life in London. Most Scots at some point find themselves living in London. But it is worse than that for Scotland, because we have a centuries-old historical culture and tradition of emigration. Immigration has not really been that big an issue for us. We obviously benefit from it, but the key feature in the history of Scotland and this debate is emigration. As everybody knows, there are Scots communities all around the world, from Canada and New Zealand to the United States, and they have always acted as a draw for our young people. Not so much now, but previously, young Scots settled abroad, so we got into this cultural trend of people leaving Scotland. We have to address that.
One other thing that the Scottish Affairs Committee looked at but did not come to any great conclusion about was deindustrialisation and its impact on encouraging people to emigrate. We obviously have deindustrialisation in Scotland, and we need only look at some of our major cities, and at the difficulties and features of life in those cities, to see why people would leave. We are wrestling with problems that successive UK Governments have bequeathed Scotland, whether through Brexit policy or the two-child benefit cap, mixed with the historical attitude to emigration and deindustrialisation. Those are the things that my hon. Friend the Member for Arbroath and Broughty Ferry and his modest Bill invite us to address.
My hon. Friend has not got the solution in the Bill; he said that, and that it is an open Bill. I am quite surprised that the Secretary of State does not understand how Committee works for private Members’ Bills. My hon. Friend is giving an invitation to the House. I am laying out the difficulties and issues that we have identified—I will get on to demography in Scotland in a minute; hon. Members should wait till they hear about that—and my hon. Friend is saying, “Help us.” Let us work together. We have a real problem in Scotland. There are some fantastic contributions to be made, with real in-depth analysis by people who understand how to look at critical questions and come up with solutions. Help us deal with this, so that we can address the range of issues that we have. Believe me, if we do not start to address them, we will be in really serious trouble.
Pete Wishart
I am sorry—I thought I was going to get the figures. We do way beyond our national share when it comes to inward migration, so please let us have no more of this. Let us just agree that people come to Scotland and we want more to do so.
Regardless of how successful we have been in attracting people, we are still in a situation of long-term population decline in Scotland. That is the population, but the demography of Scotland is a bigger horror story, and it is one thing that we really need to look at. Some 22% of Scotland’s population is over 65, which is one of the highest ratios in the whole of the western world—I think the figure for England is 17%. We have a birth rate of one child for every three women—again, one of the worst rates in the whole of the industrialised world. I do not need to lecture hon. Members about what the birth rate means. We need two children for every woman just to sustain the population at its current levels; a birth rate of one child for every three women cannot be sustainable. That is what makes the two-child benefit cap all the more absurd, heinous and callous. This Government are working contrary to what we need in Scotland to address some of these issues.
Therefore, given our falling birth rate, we are entirely dependent on immigration to keep our population at current levels, and maybe to increase it modestly for the prospects of economic growth. One of the few ambitions and commitments that this Government are sticking to is to cut net migration—that is their absolute and utter mission. They will not even bring forward a youth mobility scheme in all its glory because of their concern about the impact on net migration. Scotland is burdened with an immigration system and a set of Government policies that make our situation so much worse. Why do you think that we consistently call for this power to be devolved? No Scottish Labour MP has stood up and opposed that commitment. If they are not going to do it, they should give the power to us and allow us to do so.
All over the world, the populations of Western industrial countries are facing these difficulties. They have got the powers to address them—we have seen examples in Italy and Spain, which have particularly bad birth rates, almost on a par with what Scotland has. They have ministries devoted to trying to increase the birth rate and do something about the impending crisis that is coming their way. Even in China, population stagnation is beginning to take hold. The world population will stop growing in about 2055, and at that point there will be stagnation before rapid population fall. It is at the point where that curve starts to bend that we get stagnation, which is why nations are addressing the issues that they have.
Have a look at Japan: historically resistant to immigration, Japan is going through a structural economic crisis because of its demography and population issues. Its population is due to fall by 20% in the next 10 years because of the falling birth rate. It is going to fall from third in the GDP rankings to 10th. That is what awaits the United Kingdom over the course of the next 20 or 30 years. This Government cannot look further than the nose on their face; all they are seeing just now is Reform, and all they are thinking about is, “How do we take them on; how do we beat them?” There is no strategic thinking or long-term vision about what we will do towards the end of the century when all of this starts to take hold. Nothing, no imagination, no inquiry, but this is where we are going.
It might blow some Members’ minds, but towards the end of the century migrants might be at a premium and there will be a competition to try to get people into nations around the world. I know that is too much for them to start to contemplate just now, but that is where we are going. And yet for them the issue is about curbing migration. They see migration as a problem that has to be managed, with no concession or ground given to anything that might get in the way of the net migration figures. We are lumbered with that in Scotland. Where we want to move on and deal with our issues, we cannot do so but we should be able to do that.
We heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Arbroath and Broughty Ferry about the support that the measures in the Bill have in Scotland. That is no surprise because business organisations and think tanks have seen what is going on. They just need to look at some of our sectors to find that there is a crisis in practically every one and in our public services, so of course they support the measures. There is even political consensus in the Scottish Parliament that something needs to be done. The only thing is we need the UK Government to get on board, and the Bill before us today will help to achieve those goals.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Arbroath and Broughty Ferry conceded from the outset, the Bill is not perfect—it is a one-line Bill—but invitation is there to get it to Committee—[Interruption.] I say to Members on the Labour Benches, including the hon. Member for Isle of Wight West (Mr Quigley), colleagues from the Conservative party and the Liberal Democrats, who are not here: we have identified the issue. If somebody thinks that we have got all of this wrong, I want to hear from them. I do not want to hear about what the Scottish Government are doing with ferries or whatever it is they want to talk about—[Interruption.] This is the thing, Madam Deputy Speaker—Government Members do not want to talk about the issues that are important to us in this House. They want to talk about stuff that is devolved to the Scottish Parliament. Is that because they think their Members of the Scottish Parliament are not up to the job, so Labour Members in this House have to constantly go on about those things? The Secretary of State can confirm, but I think Labour has about 50 MSPs up in Scotland. Why not let them get on with their jobs while we deal with the things that we need to fix down here?
Ian Murray
Immigration is wrapped up in a lot of policy areas that are devolved to the Scottish Parliament. The Scottish Government themselves, in Parliament, declared a housing emergency. Does the hon. Gentleman think that the lack of housing in Scotland has anything to do with the inability to attract migrants to do the jobs in the places where they are needed to do them?
Pete Wishart
I think that we are going to have quite a few debates like this in the next few years, so I say this ever so candidly: that is a matter for the Scottish Parliament to resolve.
The Secretary of State’s party is trying to become the party in government in Scotland next year, but his party does not have any imaginative solutions, so over the next year we will be testing his proposals and policies against what we are doing. If people in Scotland are attracted to the Secretary of State’s policies and proposals, they will vote Labour in, but I do not think that will happen, and I think, in his heart of hearts, he also believes that now. We only need to look at the last by-election result. So when we are elected to this House, let us deal with the things that matter to us, and nothing is more important than this issue. If we do not get this fixed, we will have serious issues and structural problems in our public services and our economy. I appeal to the House: let the Bill go through and then let us all work together to resolve the situation.
The Secretary of State for Scotland (Ian Murray)
May I begin by thanking all Members for their contributions, and the hon. Member for Arbroath and Broughty Ferry (Stephen Gethins) for bringing the Bill before us today? I am slightly confused, after his 42-minute contribution, about what he is actually promoting. He seems to be suggesting that the Bill should pass and go into Committee, and then he will invent another Bill to do different things. The Bill before us, which is what we should be debating, is a short Bill that would essentially remove immigration from schedule 5 to the Scotland Act 1998 and devolve it wholly to the Scottish Parliament. As I have said before, if nothing is in schedule 5—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)
Order. Forgive me, I may have misheard, but did you say it was a 42-minute contribution?
Ian Murray
I stand corrected, Madam Deputy Speaker. It was an even longer contribution, at 50 minutes, and the hon. Member was still not honest about what the Bill does. The Bill before us today devolves the entirety of the immigration system to Scotland.
Stephen Gethins
I am going to try to be productive with the Secretary of State, even though he has accused me of not being honest—I wanted to take as many interventions from his colleagues as I could, and I did. I have been open enough to say that the Bill is short so that we can try to work together, and I would love to hear Scottish Labour’s proposals.
Ian Murray
I did not accuse the hon. Gentleman of being dishonest. Those are his words. Maybe he is reflecting on his own contribution. Let me take that intervention straight on and give the House the actual quote from the deputy leader of the Scottish Labour party, not what Members have determined that she may have said. I will come on to why what she said is really important and completely aligned with UK Government policy. The quote from the deputy leader of the Scottish Labour party was:
“there would be dialogue and discussion but we need to recognise that growing home-grown talent is really important.
At the moment there are no plans for”
A Scottish visa,
“but I think if you have governments taking common-sense approaches”
to skills shortages, as
“an incoming Labour Government would do,”
that helps resolve the problem. That is what she said, and what we are working on.
Let me conclude my remarks with some clarity on the Scotland Act 1998. As I said, if something is in the Scotland Act and is mentioned in schedule 5, it is reserved. If it is not, it is deemed to be devolved. The Bill would devolve immigration to the Scottish Government and Scottish Parliament. I make that point strongly at the start because it leads into all the other arguments we have heard from hon. Members from across the House about what the requirement would be at Berwick, on the border between Scotland and England.
Gareth Snell
I, too, have read the very short sentence in the Bill, which does not talk just about immigration. It states:
“including asylum and the status and capacity of persons in the United Kingdom who are not British citizens”.
My understanding—I am happy to be corrected—is that if the issue was devolved to the Scottish Government, they could, essentially, grant indefinite leave to remain and all sorts of British citizenship statuses through their powers in Scotland. That could distort the entire immigration system of the United Kingdom.
Ian Murray
And the consequence is that we would require checks in both directions. As the Minister for Independence—did my hon. Friend know that the Scottish Government had a Minister for Independence?—clearly said, as we have heard, that a hard border would be required in particular cases. Scottish Ministers, incidentally, have just awarded themselves a £20,000 pay rise—certainly not on the basis of their performance.
It is important to acknowledge the complexities of immigration as a cross-cutting policy area. SNP Members do not want to talk about it as a cross-cutting policy area, because many of the policy areas around immigration are devolved to the Scottish Government. This is not simply about numbers. It covers issues of social cohesion, as we heard this morning, economic stability and public services. Ensuring we have a fair and properly managed immigration system that takes account of those complexities is a priority for this Government. We have made clear that the immigration system we inherited is not working. Indeed, the previous Government, which the shadow Secretary of State served in, said that the immigration system in the UK was broken. Under the previous Government, between 2019 and 2024, net migration almost quadrupled, heavily driven by a big increase in overseas recruitment.
I have the net migration figures here, and they have been a key part of the debate. In 2023, the net migration figure for the United Kingdom was 906,000. If there was a proportionate share of that net migration going to Scotland, then the immigration to Scotland would be somewhere in the region of 80,000 to 85,000. Indeed, it was below 60,000, so a huge number of net migrants who are coming to the UK are not going to Scotland. The big question has to be why. We had a huge tirade from the hon. Member for Arbroath and Broughty Ferry about Brexit and its consequences, but those lower figures are still higher than before the UK left the European Union. The big question has to be asked: why are people not going to Scotland to work and live?
Stephen Gethins
I am grateful for the constructive way the Secretary of State is approaching the debate. I am not sure he can blame us for Tory migration policy. Does he think we should be driving down migration, because that is not what we are hearing? Does he think—we are talking about the health of the economy—that the Brexit he and I stood up against has been a net benefit for the economy?
Ian Murray
I have said already that net migration has to come down. That is the view of the Prime Minister and this Government, because it is too high. The reason it has to come down—this goes right to the heart of some of the big issues in Scotland that the SNP Scottish Government do not want to talk about—is that nearly one in six young people in Scotland are not in education, employment or training. We have shipyards in Scotland that build the very best ships in the world, employing Filipino and South African welders who look from the top of those ships into some of the poorest communities in Scotland and the United Kingdom, where a huge number of young people are not in employment, education or training. We need to do something about that. That is why net migration has to come down.
Workforce and skills planning is a much more important way to tackle skills shortages. We have been leaving businesses unable to find the skills they need in the UK reliant on workers from abroad. That is the record of the previous Conservative Government.
Let me say it again: net migration is too high, and the interaction between migration and skills in the labour market is fundamentally broken. All those organisations read out by the hon. Member for Arbroath and Broughty Ferry in support of his proposal also say the very same thing. Skills in the labour market is broken, and the link between migration and skills in the labour market is fundamentally broken. That is why we need confidence in the whole system, and that whole system needs to be fundamentally rebuilt.
That is the UK Government’s focus. We will face these challenges head-on by delivering on our missions in Scotland by kick-starting economic growth, which has been a disaster under the Scottish Government. If Scotland had grown at the same level as even Manchester, the Scottish economy would be tens of billions of pounds larger. If the city and region of Glasgow had grown at the same level as Manchester, its economy would be £7 billion larger. Kick-starting economic growth is therefore a key driver for this Government, as well as making Britain a clean energy superpower, in which Scotland will play a key part, and of course tackling poverty. I set out my Department’s priorities in Scotland during a recent speech at the University of Edinburgh. Given the relevance of that to the debate’s subject matter, let me draw on some of the points I made then.
Pete Wishart
I hope that the Secretary of State will get to the territory of how we address some of the issues we face. One of issues I pointed out is our poor birth rate in Scotland, with only one child for every three women. How does he think his Government’s policy of a two-child benefit cap helps address our birth rate issues?
Ian Murray
I do not think we can determine birth rate issues through the welfare system. The hon. Gentleman is essentially saying that people are choosing not to have larger families because of the welfare system. The fundamental problem of depopulation in Scotland has been around for 100 years—he mentioned that himself—but he sits on one small part of the welfare system to try to make a point that is not relevant to the debate.
Ian Murray
I am happy to give way. Can the hon. Gentleman intervene less angrily than he has in the past?
Dave Doogan
The Secretary of State always enjoys the better side of my face. He characteristically paints Scotland as some sort of economic basket case, which I find a little offensive. If he wants to be robust in that accusation against our industry and our enterprise, how does he explain why Scotland is persistently in the top half of economic performing regions of the United Kingdom, and oftentimes on certain measures in the top quartile?
Ian Murray
I am tempted to say that Scotland is not a region but a country, but I will not go down that rather juvenile route. The clear point is that the No. 1 priority and mission of this new UK Labour Government is economic growth, because we require it in our communities. If the hon. Gentleman is saying that everything is rosy in Scotland, he should go to his communities and see whether he thinks that is indeed the case. There are lots of wonderful opportunities in Scotland in terms of economic growth, and we should be exploiting those to create the jobs and careers of the future. That is a key part of what we should be talking about.
It is clear that levels of immigration need to be reduced. The Prime Minister has also been clear that we will not be introducing an arbitrary cap. This issue will not be resolved by gimmicks, unlike what we see from Opposition parties. It is simply not enough to cap numbers. Without a joined-up approach, our economy will be left without the skills it needs to grow. By creating a fair and properly managed system, we will reduce net migration back down to sustainable levels. We will achieve that through the hard work of tackling the root causes of reliance on overseas recruitment, not through gimmicks such as arbitrary targets. We want to ensure that businesses are helped to hire domestic workers first. We will ensure that different parts of Government draw up skills and workforce improvement plans in high migration sectors.
When the hon. Member for Arbroath and Broughty Ferry introduced his Bill, he challenged the Labour Government on what we were actually doing. Let me just read our manifesto to him, because actually it reflects much of what he was asking for, but that is not what his Bill wants to try to achieve. It states:
“We will strengthen the Migration Advisory Committee, and establish a framework for joint working with skills bodies across the UK, the Industrial Strategy Council and the Department for Work and Pensions. The needs of our economy are different across the regions and nations, and different sectors have different needs. Given skills policy and employment support are devolved we will work with the Scottish Government when designing workforce plans for different sectors. This will ensure our migration and skills policies work for every part of the UK.”
It also states:
“The next UK Labour Government will also ensure that UK-wide bodies are more representative of our nations and regions, this includes representation for Scotland on the Industrial Strategy Council, and Scottish skills bodies working jointly with the Migration Advisory Committee.”
Before the hon. Member for Arbroath and Broughty Ferry pops up and says, “Well yes, but who is on the Migration Advisory Committee?”, I refer him to Professor Sergi Pardos-Prado, professor of comparative politics at the University of Glasgow. He was recruited to the Migration Advisory Committee because of his knowledge on migration-related issues in devolved areas. All of the accusations laid by the hon. Member for Arbroath and Broughty Ferry through his 51-minute speech have been completely dispelled by the manifesto and the actions of this Government already.
Andrew Bowie
So far there is very little in what the Secretary of State is saying that I can disagree with. If he does believe that the Bill is unnecessary, why are his Government adopting tactics today to avoid a vote on it? Why do they not have courage of their convictions and vote it down?
Ian Murray
The hon. Gentleman should be pleased, because there are only two of them to go down any of the Lobbies; 40% of the Scottish Conservatives are here, and that makes two of them—I still think it is too many, but we will work on that at the next election.
As I have said, it is simply not good enough to cap numbers without that joined-up approach. We recognise the compounding pressures that the asylum and resettlement system is placing on local authorities and devolved Governments. That is something we have not really spoken about today, but we are committed to addressing that and delivering long-term solutions, not the sticking plaster politics that we hear from the parties opposite. We are looking at these issues carefully and will develop a new cross-Government strategy, working with stakeholders across the country and the devolved Governments, who will be vital partners in this work.
We want to ensure that any policies alongside the broader approach to asylum and resettlement work in lockstep with the Government’s objectives to end homelessness and—I am sorry to mention a devolved issue—build 1.5 million new homes over the course of this Parliament in England. That is not happening in Scotland. It is important to us to work together to ensure positive integration outcomes and improve access for all.
Steve Yemm (Mansfield) (Lab)
Is it not the case that the SNP’s housing crisis has meant that 10,000 kids in Scotland have no place to call their home? I wonder whether the Secretary of State agrees that tackling that housing emergency is an urgent step to ensuring that we attract more workers into Scotland in order to have a workforce that can grow the Scottish economy?
Ian Murray
I very much welcome the intervention. I think it should be a national shame that 10,000 children in Scotland go to bed every night in a place that they cannot call their own home. SNP Members do not want to talk about that in this debate, but the single biggest thing that affects migration in every part of this United Kingdom is the lack of housing and affordable housing. This Government are determined to deliver that for England, but of course we are not in control of Scotland. What my hon. Friend might not know is that the Scottish Government declared a housing emergency on a Tuesday with a vote in Parliament and then on a Wednesday cut the affordable housing budget by £200 million. That is the action they take following their rhetoric. They do not have any plans to resolve some of the bigger issues.
Peter Lamb (Crawley) (Lab)
We have talked a lot about demographic challenges in Scotland over the course of the debate, and I do not doubt the concerns about the demography—I have a lot of concerns myself about it. But the biggest factors that affect having children—many couples desperately do want to have more children—are lack of housing, lack of access to childcare and lack of economic opportunity. In the 20 years that the SNP Government have had to do something about this, where is the progress in addressing any of those issues? If they want to look at where the problem with Scotland’s demography lies, they should start by looking in the mirror.
Ian Murray
Can I just say to my hon. Friend, as someone who has a 12-week-old daughter and a four-and-a-half-year-old daughter, that we are very much—
Ian Murray
Indeed, we are; perhaps the hon. Member for Perth and Kinross-shire (Pete Wishart) should try doing his bit a bit more. [Interruption.] There is no need to confess now, Pete. But my hon. Friend is right; the biggest consideration for many families is childcare. Government Ministers are highly paid, and my wife works as well, but getting access to proper childcare that is flexible enough to ensure people can stay in work is a real challenge. Again, that is something the Scottish Government do not want to talk about.
We have talked about the economy, public services, housing and childcare. The First Minister made a growth speech a few weeks ago, and his only conclusion on growth in Scotland was that we need access to visas. There was nothing else. There was no ambition. There were no solutions to how we get planning sorted in Scotland. There was nothing about making sure we win the global race to green power. His one recommendation was getting something that has no control over, so that he does not have to take responsibility for the things he does have control over.
Stephen Gethins
I think I have already congratulated the Minister on his personal contribution to population growth—that is happy news we can all get behind—but I want him to answer the question I posed earlier. He talks about the First Minister and growth. The biggest impediment to growth is our hard Brexit and our relationship with the EU. Does he think that has been good or bad for growth?
Ian Murray
This UK Labour Government are determined to reset our relationship with the European Union, have a much closer trading relationship and do what is in the UK national interest. The biggest impediment to growth in the economy in Scotland is the SNP Scottish Government, and that has been proven through time.
Gareth Snell
I thank the Secretary of State for giving way once again. He will know, because he was here with me when it happened, that this House came within six votes of coming to a settled position on customs union membership, which I appreciate is no longer the Government’s policy. When they became aware of how close the vote was going to be, 48 Scottish National party Members abstained, so that it would fail and they could pursue their hard Brexit grievance, to try to make sure Brexit failed, because that is what they wanted to put on their party leaflets.
Ian Murray
We should not rerun the Brexit debate in this House, but it is worth acknowledging that the Bill is written in a different way from what the hon. Member for Arbroath and Broughty Ferry wants to deliver. He wants to pretend that it will go to Committee, and we will all sit around the campfire with marshmallows and decide on a wonderful way forward, but that is not what the Bill says.
My hon. Friend gets to the heart of the problem, because ultimately this is all to do with the advancement of the Scottish National party’s independence agenda. Nothing else gets them out of bed in the morning. I get out of bed in the morning to try to make sure that everybody in this country, including in my constituency, has better lives and better opportunities. SNP Members get out of bed to push for independence. That is the difference. When the Division bells rang on that occasion—I remember it very well—everybody thought that the vote would be carried. Those SNP Members sat on their hands and the vote was lost by six. All their credibility in trying to push something else through was completely shot at that moment—and do not forget that they also pushed for the 2019 general election at the same time.
I will now canter through page 2 of my speech. It is important for us to work together to ensure positive integration outcomes and improved processes overall. Let me turn to the valuable contribution that workers from overseas make to our economy, our public services and national life throughout the United Kingdom. As the hon. Member for Arbroath and Broughty Ferry has highlighted, the remote parts of Scotland face depopulation issues, and they have for a long time—I talk to my hon. Friend the Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Torcuil Crichton) about this on a regular basis. Skills shortages also remain across Scotland, as they do in different places across the UK. Indeed, according to the latest population projections from the National Records of Scotland, the factors driving population change are exactly the same across the whole United Kingdom.
Harriet Cross
The Secretary of State mentions depopulation in rural areas of Scotland and deskilling. North-east Scotland—as I am sure he is aware, because we have mentioned it more than once in this Chamber—is facing exactly that because of Labour’s policies on the North sea. Skills are being driven abroad at an unimaginable rate compared with the rest of the UK. We are depopulating and deskilling the north-east of Scotland because of Labour’s North sea oil and gas policies. Will he reflect on that or at least accept that that is the impact Labour is having on north-east Scotland?
Ian Murray
I was in the north-east of Scotland yesterday, in Buckie, turning on one of the largest offshore wind farms. Ocean Winds employs 45 to 70 local people from a 40-mile radius from Buckie. That is the kind of opportunity there is. Most of the people in Ocean Winds were from the oil and gas sector. There is no disagreement about the challenge, which is about how we transition a world-class, highly skilled workforce from an industry that is declining because of the age and maturity of the basin to the new opportunities and industry. There is no doubt that the green revolution is one of the biggest economic opportunities this country has had in generations, and we need grab hold of it. I also met Offshore Energies UK yesterday and had very productive discussions its representatives about Government policy and the consultation on the North sea transition. Those discussions will obviously continue.
These issues—as I have laid out, based on the National Records of Scotland—are not unique to Scotland, nor have they been solved by the increase in net migration in recent years. The Bill would not address the issues that the hon. Member for Arbroath and Broughty Ferry has raised, because the reasons that the resident population moves away from an area will also encourage any migrant population to follow suit as soon as they are allowed. The former Chair of the Scottish Affairs Committee, the hon. Member for Perth and Kinross-shire, mentioned Quebec. I have tried to have this checked—if it is slightly incorrect, I will write to the hon. Gentleman—but when I was in Quebec back in 2013, it had introduced a particular social care visa because it had a particular social care problem. It had to scrap that visa, because after the end of the two-year restrictions, everyone moved to other parts of Canada to work. Most went to Alberta to work in the oil and gas sector. That is a key point about having a different system from the one that is part of those net migration figures.
Johanna Baxter
On the point about social care, does my right hon. Friend agree that instead of looking to a one-line Bill on immigration to solve the issues in social care in Scotland, perhaps the SNP Government in Holyrood could have avoided wasting £28 million on a flawed national care service Bill, which was ill-conceived and ill-thought-out, much like the Bill that is before us today? Perhaps instead they could have invested that money in properly paying the workers who carry out the care. [Interruption.] Sorry?
Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)
Order. The debate is taking place with the Secretary of State, who has the floor.
Ian Murray
I agree with my hon. Friend. Look at the money that was wasted for the national care service—again, just another headline in the newspapers that the SNP required in the run-up to an election. It also wasted £680 million setting up Social Security Scotland and wants to put in place a new immigration system that will not require checks, any money, or a border between Scotland and England. The key thing here, which SNP Members do not want to admit and which they voted against, is that this UK Labour Government just gave the Scottish Government the largest settlement in the history of the Scottish Parliament—£4.9 billion more—and there is still a social care crisis in Scotland. That tells us all we need to know about where they spent the money. If SNP Members want to pop up and tell us where they have spent it, I am sure that the Scottish people watching this debate would be pleased to hear from them.
It is important to address the underlying issues in a sustainable way and investigate other levers to encourage people to stay, such as boosting attractive job opportunities, affordable housing, which we have discussed, local services, transport link connectivity and suitable local infrastructure. This could include investing in the area or offering taxation incentives to individuals and businesses to do so, as we are seeing with some of the initiatives going on in Scotland at the moment.
I acknowledge the consideration that the hon. Member for Arbroath and Broughty Ferry has given to Scottish visas and his views on them, but a separate Scottish visa or a separate immigration system are not things that the Government are currently considering, nor have we asked the independent Migration Advisory Committee to consider them. That is a straightforward Government policy.
Kirsty Blackman
The Secretary of State is laying out that the Government are not considering this—that, basically, it is not Government policy for Scotland to have control of migration or for there to be a specific Scottish visa. I assume therefore that he is happy for there to be a vote, and that he is going to encourage a vote, so that he can walk through a Lobby opposing this Bill. If he feels so strongly about it, why is he not pushing for there to be a vote?
Ian Murray
Let me turn to what the Government are doing, which might answer the hon. Lady’s question. We are not going to set up a separate Scottish visa; and I refer her back to a previous intervention from the hon. Member for Arbroath and Broughty Ferry, in response to which I mentioned exactly what the deputy leader of the Scottish Labour party actually said in the quote that SNP Members so often misquote. However, we have commissioned the Migration Advisory Committee to review key sectors, and the existing visa system makes provision for shortages specific to Scotland. Our long-term plan will see Departments working across Government, partnering with agencies and experts to build our skills base, tackle our labour market issues and reduce our reliance on migration.
The system does actually work. I have the shortage occupation list in front of me. That list features 20 or so different occupations, and Scotland has its own list, which includes occupation shortages that are not UK-wide. For example, “Boat and ship builders and repairers—all jobs” is a shortage occupation in Scotland, but not across the rest of the UK. “Managers and proprietors in forestry, fishing and related services” is on the list for Scotland, but not for the rest of the United Kingdom. Those are just two examples of big industries where Scotland does have specific entries on the shortage occupation list, as recommended by the Migration Advisory Committee.
The long-term plan has to be for us to work together to resolve those skills-based issues, tackling other labour market issues and reducing our reliance on migration for workforce planning. It is also clear that different visas for different parts of the UK would restrict movement and rights and create internal UK borders. Creating internal UK borders has been proposed by colleagues of the hon. Member for Arbroath and Broughty Ferry in the Scottish Government. The now Minister for Parliamentary Business—we have mentioned him before— who was then Minister for Independence suggested that there would have to be a hard border and border checks in the event that we had a different immigration system. That is all we need to know.
Adam Thompson (Erewash) (Lab)
My right hon. Friend talks about the risk of introducing internal borders within the UK. Can he elaborate on whether he thinks it at all possible under our current system of governance and policing to police any such borders?
Ian Murray
My hon. Friend hits the practicalities on the head. There is no way, at this moment in time, of monitoring cross-border, because there is not a border to monitor. We have the free flow of movement of people from north to south and from England to Scotland and Wales and so on. The Government do not support creating internal borders of any kind. The open land border within the UK renders tighter controls ineffective in Scotland. More permissive controls would weaken the UK’s position as a whole. Consistent rules and legislation are essential to prevent a two-tier system within the United Kingdom and to avoid geographical changes becoming a pull or push factor for those who wish to abuse the system. The current system allows flexibility and freedom for migrant workers to apply for alternative employment anywhere in the UK. Furthermore, visa holders may not want to stay in particular areas for much the same reason as UK nationals, and we cannot compel them to stay indefinitely in any case.
Mr Quigley
Does my right hon. Friend agree that migration, when managed well, is a truly wonderful thing, but this Bill would do quite the opposite?
Ian Murray
My hon. Friend says it all, and I could not agree more. The Bill would add extra complexity to an already extremely complex system. Adding devolved powers would increase that level of complexity even further. For example, the previous Fresh Talent: Working in Scotland scheme, which we have talked about, allowed international students graduating from Scottish universities two years in which they could work without needing a sponsoring employer. The route saw many participants relocate to other parts of the UK as soon as they could. The current graduate visa route offers all the same benefits of the old Fresh Talent route, but applies to graduates of all UK universities, not just those in Scotland.
Stephen Gethins
I am not going to comment on the common travel area—perhaps the Secretary of State can cover that—but I want to make a more productive point. Will his Government continue to be committed to that Scottish graduate route, which is so important to higher education? That is one area where I think we can agree. I wanted to bring in a point of consensus.
Ian Murray
We are concerned about the higher education system in Scotland at the moment, and this Government will do everything it can to support it. Let us work through that particular point, because it is important. The main driver for Scottish universities being in the place they are is the funding model they have been forced into having. It caps Scottish students going to university. That means the universities are completely and utterly underfunded, so their business model has had to reach into international waters to bring in much greater numbers of international students to balance the books. That model is completely broken if those international students decrease in number for a whole host of economic and other reasons. We end up in a situation whereby the whole financial issue is completely and utterly broken. To show the sums of money we are talking about, Edinburgh University is not in deficit—and it is important to say that—but it will be if it does not take action, and the deficit will be £140 million. That is a direct result of the Scottish Government’s funding of higher education.
Beyond that, the Migration Advisory Committee has also noted that the scale of migration needed to try to address depopulation would be significant, but that Scotland’s labour market needs are broadly similar to those elsewhere in the UK. The committee has highlighted in its work notable similarities and differences within nations and regions of the UK, and its ambition is to produce an analysis that is localised, but as rigorous as possible. We look forward to seeing that. However, the committee’s geographic focus has at times been limited by the reliability or availability of regional data. It will work with stakeholders to improve the geographical migration data they use, with a view to enabling greater improvement in localised insights.
Beyond this Bill, the proposals of the party of the hon. Member for Arbroath and Broughty Ferry in recent years include an expanded skilled worker visa for Scotland, a bespoke Scottish visa, a Scottish graduate visa and a remote rural partnership scheme. In relation to a Scottish rural visa pilot, the Migration Advisory Committee has noted that both Australia and Canada have place-based immigration programmes, but it is suggested that these schemes may not be a long-term solution to rural depopulation. We heard from the former Chair of the Scottish Affairs Committee, the hon. Member for Perth and Kinross-shire, that depopulation in Scotland has been a century long and therefore any scheme will not be a long-term solution to that kind of rural depopulation.
Dame Meg Hillier
My right hon. Friend is making an interesting point about the challenges facing rural areas where there are shortages of people. Denmark has a rota system for doctors going into rural areas for a few months at a time, because it, like Scotland and parts of England, have these challenges. Does my right hon. Friend therefore agree that having a separate immigration policy for Scotland is not the answer and that this issue is being grappled with across the world?
Ian Murray
Absolutely, and the biggest grappling that we have to do as a Government and a country is resolve the disconnect between immigration, skills, opportunities for young people and the way in which our economy works across every single part of the United Kingdom.
One of the Migration Advisory Committee’s key concerns about some of these schemes is the efficiency of any rural visa, primarily the ability to incentivise migrants to remain located in rural areas after any visa requirements to do so lapse, especially given that the UK is a geographically much smaller country than Australia or Canada—and I mentioned the issue with regard to Quebec. Migrants moving to rural areas would be subject to the same factors driving non-migrant populations to relocate, such as inadequate health services, which is right at the top of the agenda in Scotland.
Alison Taylor (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that the state of the national health service in Scotland is contributing to the low birth rate in Scotland, and we need to invest in maternity, fertility and post-birth services for mothers?
Ian Murray
It gives me no pleasure to say this, but I take great pride in the fact that this Labour Government concentrated on getting the NHS back on its feet after the election, and for six months in a row—six winter months in a row—waiting lists have fallen. However, in Scotland they have not. Despite the Scottish Government having a record settlement from the UK Labour Government and despite £4.9 billion extra, the NHS is broken in Scotland because it does not have a Government who are solely focused on making sure that the health of their nation is a top priority.
Pete Wishart
Why is the Secretary of State talking about the Scottish Government?
Ian Murray
I know SNP Members do not like us speaking about the Scottish Government, but the Migration Advisory Committee that they have talked about a lot in this Chamber already is addressing these issues. They challenged me to tell them what this Government were doing in relation to this Bill and migration in the Scottish context, and I am telling them what the Migration Advisory Committee is saying in response to this Bill. [Interruption.] SNP Members do not want to talk about it, but I will continue to talk about it until health in this country improves, and I have to say that when one in seven of my constituents are on NHS waiting lists, I will continue talking about it until these lights go out.
Non-migrant populations would have the same problems as the rest of us in terms of inadequate health services, the declared housing emergency, a broader lack of investment in skills and training, and economic opportunities for young people.
The one element in common among all these proposals is they are designed to provide a means to avoid or lower the salary requirements that apply to skilled worker visas. The Migration Advisory Committee has repeatedly advised against salary variations as they could create frictions for workers moving around the UK and could risk institutionalising areas as being low wage. This could have the effect of entrenching low pay in some areas for the resident populations as well as migrant workers, which would do nothing to resolve the long-term causes of depopulation. I am very proud, as is everyone on the Government Benches, of our Make Work Pay commitment and our new deal for working people.
Having different salary thresholds for different parts of the UK would also add complexity to an already complicated immigration system and would create difficulties for employers who operate across multiple regions of the UK, potentially requiring them to monitor the physical location of their employees and report that information to the Home Office to ensure compliance.
Of course we are aware of the demographic and labour market challenges faced by certain areas, sectors and industries, but we have seen record-high net migration levels in recent years while depopulation has remained an issue for Scotland, suggesting that immigration is not a solution to those challenges, especially given that we cannot practically compel people to stay in a particular area indefinitely. Instead, we are taking action through a joined-up approach across Government, in the UK’s immigration, labour market and skills system, to train up our own home-grown workforce, end the over-reliance on international recruitment and boost economic growth in every single part of the UK.
At the same time, the Government have confirmed that the changes made to key visa routes earlier last year will remain in place to drive levels down further. Additionally, as we announced last November, shameless and bad employers that flout UK employment laws will be banned from sponsoring overseas visas, as part of tough new action to clamp down on visa abuse and prevent the exploitation of overseas workers. I hope that the hon. Member for Arbroath and Broughty Ferry and his colleagues will give us their support in Scotland to ensure that workers are not exploited by rogue employers.
Let me turn to skills and migration. The Government recognise and value the important contribution that overseas workers make to our economy and public services throughout the United Kingdom. As the hon. Gentleman has highlighted, remote parts of Scotland face depopulation, and skills shortages remain at their highest levels across Scotland. However, those issues have not been solved by the increase in net migration in recent years. Indeed, many of the actions needed to fix Scotland’s skills shortages are already devolved matters under the control of the Scottish Government, so his SNP colleagues in Holyrood already have the levers they need to address those challenges. They may wish to try pulling some of those levers—perhaps he can do so himself, because he wants to be a Member of the Scottish Parliament. Indeed, I think a high proportion of his colleagues think the same. Maybe that is why the leader of the SNP in this House, the right hon. Member for Aberdeen South (Stephen Flynn), has already disappeared to go back to Scotland and make the case for his selection.
Let me just run through some of the levers that the Scottish Government could pull. They include powers relating to business rates, social security and tax; the record settlement of £47.7 billion, which is £4.9 billion more than before; and, of course, responsibility for education, health, housing, and employability and skills. They do not want to talk about any of those things. Businesses and unions consistently tell us that they worry about the skills gaps in Scotland. I am surprised that SNP Members do not care about this stuff. This is not just about skills and jobs; it is about opportunities for young people. Perhaps they do want to talk about it, because they all want to go to the Scottish Parliament and to refocus on what they are delivering.
The UK Government are focused on delivering outcomes and securing the future through our plan for change. Simply put, young people in Scotland—whether in work or seeking work—are not being supported with the skills and training that they need to succeed. Scotland’s rate of economic inactivity remains above that of the rest of the UK. I am not shy about repeating this: nearly one in six young people in Scotland are not in education, employment or training. Some 1,351 young people in Scotland left high school last year with absolutely no qualifications—an entire high school-worth of young people written off with no future because the Scottish Government refused to do something about it.
I am very proud that this UK Labour Government have relentlessly focused on getting people into work and developing their skills by increasing the national living wage and legislating to make work pay; strengthening workers’ rights and protections; providing £240 million for the Get Britain Working plan, which will overhaul jobcentres with a focus on skills and careers; and delivering a proper industrial strategy, developed in partnership with businesses and trade unions, to ensure that we get the economy, and the people in it, working. However, the Scottish Government also have a huge role to play, and they must use the levers that they have. As I have said before, I want co-operation between Governments to drive our economic growth, and skills are central to that.
I hope that the hon. Member for Arbroath and Broughty Ferry, his party and his colleagues in Holyrood will engage with all that work and replicate its focus in their programme for government next month, which I think is their fourth or fifth in four years—every other programme for government so far has been an abject failure. I would be particularly interested to see further work on skills and education, building on the work of the Withers review, because right now the SNP Government are failing on skills.
Ian Murray
The hon. Gentleman asks why and I will tell him. The number of college places is at its lowest level in a decade, with more cuts on the way; the attainment gap between the richest and poorest continues to grow; and, disgracefully, thousands of pupils left school last year with absolutely no qualifications, as I have said. That cannot be allowed to continue.
This is nothing new. Was it not the current First Minister who lobbied for tax breaks for private schools, whereas this Labour Government ended tax breaks for private schools?
Ian Murray
SNP Members keep shouting “Immigration!”, but as the Migration Advisory Committee has said, the immigration issue is complex, because it is about housing, health, education, skills, work and employment, and this is the First Minister’s record on that.
That is not all that the First Minister did as Education Secretary. We all remember the disgrace of working-class kids being marked down by the First Minister and the Scottish Qualifications Authority during the pandemic. Under him, poorer kids were penalised by postcode—penalised by their poverty. Poorer kids could not be getting the results that they were getting, so they were marked down. Bright and from a working-class area? The First Minister did not believe that you deserved the grades that your teachers decided you should have got.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)
Order. This is a very interesting riff on education, but can we get back to the immigration point, please?
Ian Murray
Thank you for your guidance, Madam Deputy Speaker, but the important point is that immigration and skills are completely linked. If the education system is broken and the skills system is broken, the SNP reaches for a Bill like this one, rather than reaching for the levers at the disposal of the Scottish Government.
I speak from experience. A working-class person looking to get on in life needs the security of a house, the opportunity of a career and someone to believe in them. During the pandemic, thousands of working-class kids were sent a clear message by the First Minister that he did not believe in them.
For our part, to tackle skills shortages, we will focus on investment in jobs, infrastructure and public services by upskilling resident workers and tackling economic inactivity. We will reduce the reliance on international recruitment to fill roles. We will have a shortage occupation list that includes specific occupations and sectors that are required in our national interest and for our economy. In addition, the UK Government want to engage with bodies in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland that are responsible for skills matters. That work is under way and will link directly to the Migration Advisory Committee, the Industrial Strategy Advisory Council, the Department for Work and Pensions and, of course, Skills England from an English and Welsh perspective.
Ms Billington
What is important is not only economic security for individuals and the opportunities that a strong economy would provide for them, but the economic security of our country. The SNP voted against Great British Energy and opposes nuclear power, both of which are vital to our energy security and our economic security. If it is opposed to those, how can we be sure that it would be competent to deliver immigration policy?
Ian Murray
It astounds me that the leader of the Scottish National party in this place, the right hon. Member for Aberdeen South, has GB Energy headquartered in his own constituency but voted against it. SNP Members voted against the extra £4.9 billion in the Budget, and they stand against nuclear power. Those three examples show why Scotland needs to take a new direction at the election next year.
Amanda Martin (Portsmouth North) (Lab)
Does the Secretary of State agree that the list of things that SNP Members oppose includes jobs being created in that constituency?
Ian Murray
With GB Energy, and indeed with the green revolution going on across the globe, my ambition is not just that Scotland will play a part, but that it will win the global race. It is well placed to do so, with first mover advantage. The things this Government have done—setting a mission for clean power by 2030, setting up and capitalising GB Energy and having a National Wealth Fund—are all part of making sure that Scotland wins that global race, and of creating the jobs of the future.
Sean Woodcock
It seems to me, to be fair, that this Bill is about creating jobs in Scotland—but jobs for form checkers and passport checkers at the border between England and Scotland, rather than anything particularly useful. Does my right hon. Friend agree?
Ian Murray
My hon. Friend is absolutely correct. All the Scottish National party debates that I have seen in this Chamber since I was lucky enough to be elected in 2010 have been predicated on independence. There have been no positive debates about what we can do to make things better for people in Scotland, increase economic growth, create skills and opportunities for the future, tackle inequalities in health or close the attainment gap. Those are all failures of the Scottish National party, but SNP Members do not want to talk about them. I am sure you do not want me to continue to talk about them either, Madam Deputy Speaker.
Graham Leadbitter
The point that the Secretary of State makes about the oil and gas sector is very pertinent. At Ardersier, the First Minister of Scotland and a representative of the UK Government met with Haventus relatively recently to support the investment there with joint efforts from both Governments. That was very welcome, but to support that we need a thriving service and hospitality sector, which is a real problem in my constituency. In parts of the highlands in Moray, in places such as Nairn and Aviemore, there is a growing population. Despite that, there are hospitality businesses that are open only five days a week out of seven, because they cannot staff them—they cannot get the staff. How does the Secretary of State suggest that we deal with that?
Ian Murray
As I have said throughout this debate, this is a really complex area. We cannot deal with it by just pulling on one lever and with a separate immigration system. We can deal with it by providing proper pay in the workplace, which is what we have done through our new deal for working people. We can provide housing, so that people can live there and afford to live there. We can provide connectivity, so that people can move around. A very practical thing that the Scottish Government could have done was to pass on the full rates relief that English hospitality businesses had, which was not passed on to Scottish hospitality businesses. Indeed, despite this Government legislating for a 40% reduction in perpetuity, the Scottish Government still refuse to do that.
Seamus Logan
I am sure my hon. Friend the Member for Moray West, Nairn and Strathspey (Graham Leadbitter) will agree that the difficulty in my constituency is not the issue of proper pay or housing. [Interruption.] If Labour Members will just listen for a moment, they will hear the issue is that we are at full employment. Some 2.3% of the population between the ages of 16 and 64 are unemployed. By any definition, that is full employment. The issue is that we cannot get the staff. The Secretary of State is ducking the question, so will he please answer it?
Ian Murray
Let us do a little mathematics. Some 2.3% of the population in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency are unemployed, and nearly one in six young people across Scotland are not in education, employment or training. That is nearly 100,000 young people alone. The question must be: why are those young people not seeking out those jobs in his constituency and the constituency of the hon. Member for Moray West, Nairn and Strathspey (Graham Leadbitter)? The hon. Gentleman wants to say to those young people, “You stay not in employment, education or training, and we will pull a separate immigration lever to get people to work in poorly paid industries, rather than boosting pay, careers, progression and the places that people want to live and work in.”
Scotland has a proud industrial past—indeed, we all know that from history—and it can have a bright industrial future that delivers jobs and wealth for families for generations to come. For too long, Scottish workers have missed out on work, and I worry that a new generation will miss out on the skills required to take up the new opportunities. While the Scotland Office will seek to work in co-operation with the Scottish Government, I am afraid that this debate is just another example of the SNP demanding more powers to distract from its own failures rather than take responsibility for them.
UK visas are tied to locations already—an international student at the University of Edinburgh is not commuting from Somerset. The question is then: at a time when the previous Government presided over record levels of immigration, why is Scotland not a more attractive place for people coming to the UK to work or study? I suggest that it is down to 20 years of SNP failure on policy delivery.
Johanna Baxter
Does my right hon. Friend agree that if we want to attract people to work in our great nation of Scotland, it is important that he continues the work he has been doing to promote businesses and services globally in Brand Scotland? [Interruption.]
Ian Murray
The flippancy with which SNP Members deal with these relevant and serious issues is there for all to see. I hope that a lot of our non-Scottish colleagues who are here today have seen how utterly deplorably they operate in this Chamber and how rude and patronising they are when we are dealing with serious issues for our constituents. Brand Scotland is there to do exactly that: to ensure that we get inward investment into Scotland, to sell Scotland to the world and to have a much more thriving economy for our communities.
Gareth Snell
The Secretary of State is being exceedingly generous with his time. SNP Members keep saying, “Don’t talk about the Scottish Government”, but the Bill’s aim is to devolve power from this place to the Scottish Parliament and Scottish Government, so I think the competence of the Scottish Parliament is in scope. Immigration is neatly and importantly linked to our national security. We have one system, which is an important layer of our national security. The Scottish National party wishes to frack that situation. Has the Secretary of State had any guidance from the Ministry of Defence or the Home Office on the implications of the immigration system changes that SNP Members are attempting to achieve?
Ian Murray
We have not yet examined this in any great detail in this debate, but defence and our national security are huge issues. We heard a bit about boat crossings; nobody wants to see those. We want to smash the gangs and stop the crossings. One person crossing by small boat is one too many, because they are putting in danger their life and the lives of others, and that has to stop. There is a huge defence and national security issue here, because the small boats crossings are run by criminal gangs in Europe and on the streets of constituencies all around the country.
The answer to the question my hon. Friend just posed is not in the Bill. This is a short Bill to devolve the whole immigration and asylum system to the Scottish Parliament. The Bill does not actually say what it will do. I have no doubt about the honesty and integrity—and any other word we might pluck out of the sky—of the hon. Member for Arbroath and Broughty Ferry, but we cannot take the Bill at face value. He says, “Pop it into Committee and everything will be wonderful,” but we do not know the implications of his Bill. If he wanted to, he could have brought in a Bill that addressed that point.
Stephen Gethins
I am grateful for the Secretary of State’s characteristically kind words about me. I am happy to take guidance, and to engage with civil servants and the MOD. Either vote the Bill out or do not, but let us engage with it. This is the most that the Secretary of State for Scotland has spoken in any debate since he was elected, so why will he not use the debate positively?
Ian Murray
I think I have used the debate positively. I have spent a long time talking about our skills agenda, our plan to make work pay, GB Energy, the national wealth fund, economic growth and Brand Scotland. All those things are very positive and have been delivered in the first few months of this Labour Government. If the Scottish Government had the same focus on delivering for the people of Scotland as we have down here, they would be in a much better place.
Peter Lamb
In the debate, any number of challenges relating to practicality and principle have been raised about the Bill, and we have repeatedly had SNP Members shouting out, “Put the Bill to a vote, then!” Every time they say that, everyone else in the Chamber hears, “We don’t have any answers to the questions and points that you raise.” Putting the Bill to a vote would be purely symbolism, and not a serious use of the House’s time.
Ian Murray
Absolutely, and I hope that my hon. Friend would say that this contribution from the Government Dispatch Box is a very good use of the Government’s time.
Ian Murray
I thank my hon. Friend very much—I hope Hansard heard that. I did say that the attractiveness of Scotland as a place to live and work is down to policy delivery, and let me mention one policy in particular.
Josh Fenton-Glynn
Like the shadow Secretary of State, I will be running the London marathon on Sunday. I mention that because people do not run marathons by making excuses, yet when we hear from SNP Members about skills, growth, health and universities, the excuse is always either immigration policy or a lack of devolution. If there is always an excuse for their failure, they will not achieve anything. That is why we need a serious debate about how we will get more people into Scotland.
Ian Murray
We all wish my hon. Friend well, Madam Deputy Speaker. I hope that “wishing him well” goes as far as going to his JustGiving page and throwing him a few quid. My record for 26 miles is based on how fast I can drive the car, not how far I can run; I know hon. Members will find that difficult to believe.
A key reason why it might not be attractive to live and work in some places in Scotland, and why reaching for this Bill would be wrong, is the provision of health services. There is no greater issue for our constituents; health is always the No. 1 priority for them, whether they live in Wales, Northern Ireland, England or Scotland. Concern about health services is top of the agenda for Scottish people. However, people in Scotland receive less cancer treatment than their neighbours in other parts of the UK, and the 62-day waiting time standard that was put into law has not been met in Scotland since 2012, more than 13 years ago. Over the winter, waiting lists in England fell for six months in a row, but over 100,000 Scots have been stuck on an NHS waiting list for tests or treatment for over a year. That is 26% higher than just a year ago.
Madam Deputy Speaker
I am not sure if I am thankful for that point of order. The Chair is overseeing the debate. I have listened to it very closely. I appreciate that it is about immigration. I know that the Bill is very thin—it is only two pages long—but it is broad in scope. I will continue to listen very closely to the Secretary of State, and he will ensure that his comments are within scope of the Bill.
Ian Murray
If my comments fall out of scope, Madam Deputy Speaker, I would be very happy for you to tell me, as you have the right to, and as you do so well; I will then change my remarks. However, the hon. Member for Perth and Kinross-shire spent three quarters of his rather lengthy contribution talking about the same issues that I am addressing. He may want to reflect on that.
Seamus Logan
I welcome your ruling, Madam Deputy Speaker, with regard to the focus of the debate.
You are speaking about waiting list times for cancer treatment. What has that got to do with immigration? Secondly, you keep focusing on—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)
Order. That is twice! “You” refers to the Chair. I think that is the end of that intervention. I call the Secretary of State.
Ian Murray
Just for clarity for Members of this House who are not Scottish, free personal care was a Labour policy of the last Labour Administration in Scotland. Let me deal directly with that intervention, which was well-meaning. The reason why we are talking about health is that the issue concerns the birth rate. We have heard already about the lack of maternity services, and the lack of maternity and paternity support, both pre-birth and post-birth. They are a key part of whether people determine to have more children.
People may have in the back of their mind the question of whether they want to go to Scotland and sit on a waiting list with one in seven of their fellow Scots, or want to live somewhere where the waiting lists are going down. Do they want to live in Scotland, where the Government have passed an Act committing to a 62-day waiting time, but have not met that target in 13 years? Do they want to be on an NHS waiting list that is 26% longer today than it was last year? Do they want to be in a place where in the first nine months of 2024, over 36,500 procedures were paid for by patients because they had to get their cataracts, hip and knee replacements done? They even had to pay for rounds of chemotherapy because their choice was pay or pain. That is the choice that this Scottish Government have given to patients. There is a two-tier NHS in Scotland: one for those who can pay, and one for those who have to wait in pain. Despite that abysmal backlog and Scots being forced to go private, almost 50,000 fewer operations are carried out a year than before the pandemic.
Does the hon. Gentleman want to intervene and say whether I have answered his question about why health is relevant to the debate? Perhaps not. The bodies responsible for community health and social care—a sector with a fair proportion of international workers—face a funding gap in Scotland of £457 million. Councils that have been slashed to the bone are responsible for social care services. The outsourcing of social care services and the driving down of wages are the only options that councils have been left with because of the constant underfunding of social care by the Scottish Government.
I make no apology for highlighting the SNP’s record in Scotland on the issues that it is responsible for. SNP Members never want to talk about the powers they have—just the powers that they do not have. But let me be slightly more positive and talk about our working together in a spirit of co-operation. The hon. Member for Arbroath and Broughty Ferry might want to reflect on this. I will share an example of Scotland’s two Governments working together on an immigration issue. Last August, 19 female Afghan medical students, barred by the Taliban in Afghanistan from completing their medical university studies, arrived in Scotland to train to become doctors. Previously, the women were confined to their homes and unable to contribute to their society through a medical career. Many feared for not just their careers but their lives. They felt that their lives were in danger, and they lived in fear of the Taliban.
The UK Government’s Scotland Office proposed student visas as an alternative route to using the Afghan citizens resettlement scheme, and the Scottish Government confirmed that they would introduce legislation to amend student funding regulations to ensure that the women could attend Scottish medical schools and complete their studies. It was a tremendous effort of co-operation between the UK and Scottish Governments, brokered by the wonderful Linda Norgrove Foundation. Linda Norgrove was an aid worker from the Western Isles in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar. The foundation was set up by Linda Norgrove’s parents John and Lorna in memory of their daughter, who was kidnapped and died during a failed rescue attempt in Afghanistan in October 2010.
The foundation aims to support women and children affected by war in Afghanistan. It has raised more than £3 million since it was established in 2010, which has been spent on a wide range of projects, from literacy programmes to calligraphy classes. It had been providing scholarships for women to study medicine, dentistry, the law and business at university. That came to an end when the Taliban banned women from attending university. On behalf of the UK Government, and I am sure the Scottish Government, I commend the foundation for its ongoing extraordinary work on this aspect of immigration. I highlight it not to make a political point, but because it shows that when we have an issue that needs to be resolved and the Scottish and UK Governments can work together, we can resolve these kinds of issues directly. Those Afghan women, when they complete their medical studies in Scotland, can contribute so much to the country and to their future.
This Government look forward to publishing the immigration White Paper. We will reduce immigration and work to provide Scotland with the economic growth, jobs and opportunities that it deserves and needs. We will continue to work with the Scottish Government on delivering for Scotland—we have reset that relationship—but we will also respect the devolution settlement. However, the UK Government do not believe that this Bill, devolving further powers on immigration, is the solution to Scotland’s depopulation or skills shortage. We need both Governments working together in this vital area, and if the Scottish Government are not willing to do that, I suggest that they stand aside next year and allow Labour to do it for them.