Parliamentary Oral Question (Correction)
Baroness May of Maidenhead Excerpts(13 years, 10 months ago)
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The Secretary of State for the Home Department and Minister for Women and Equalities (Mrs Theresa May)
I regret to inform the House that there was an inaccuracy in an answer given to oral question 19942 on 28 October 2010, Official Report, column 458.
The response indicated that no recent representations had been received on the likely effect on women victims of domestic violence of reductions in funding to supporting people programme.
I can confirm that in fact Sandra Horley, CEO Refuge, sent a letter to the Minister for Equalities, my hon. Friend the Member for Hornsey and Wood Green (Lynne Featherstone) on 3 August regarding this matter, copied to Ministers in CLG and DWP. My hon. Friend met Sandra Horley on 12 October to discuss Refuge and tackling violence against women more generally.
Oral Answers to Questions
Baroness May of Maidenhead Excerpts(13 years, 11 months ago)
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Mr Bob Ainsworth (Coventry North East) (Lab)
1. If she will discuss with West Midlands police the likely effects on police numbers in the west midlands of the outcome of the comprehensive spending review.
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
The Government’s first duty is to protect the public. The events of the last few days have been a stark reminder of the harm our enemies wish to inflict on us. I will make a statement later this afternoon on the airline terror plot, following the Prime Minister’s statement on the European Council.
To respond to the right hon. Gentleman’s question, I spoke to Chris Sims, the chief constable of West Midlands police, just under a fortnight ago. He reassured me, as he has also done publicly, that he remains absolutely confident that West Midlands police will continue to protect and serve people in the west midlands in the way they expect. I will continue to hold discussions with police forces.
Mr Ainsworth
Of course they will try, but West Midlands police is planning to shed 400 police officers and support staff, and that is just in year one. Why is low-crime Surrey getting a far lower rate of cuts than the west midlands? I thought we were all in this together.
Mrs May
May I first thank the right hon. Gentleman for advance notice of his question, which he tweeted about half an hour ago?
The effectiveness of a police force does not depend primarily on the numbers of staff. What matters is how effectively they are deployed, whether they are visible and available doing the job the public want them to do, and whether they have been freed from unnecessary paperwork and bureaucracy. We will be doing that, and the steps we are already taking to do away with the stop-and-account form and to reduce the amount of information recorded for stop and search will save 800,000 man hours a year.
Ed Balls (Morley and Outwood) (Lab/Co-op)
We will hear more from the Home Secretary later this afternoon about the security threat to our country, but I am sure the whole House will want to join me in commending her on the very calm way in which she has handled events over the past few days. I also want to thank her for welcoming me to my shadow role and offering me a detailed security briefing.
On the spending review and its impact on police numbers in the west midlands, at the weekend the Home Secretary said that in the spending review it is important that the Home Office takes its share, and policing is taking its share in that, but given that the NHS budget is rising by 0.4% in real terms over four years and the Defence and Education budgets are falling by 7.5% and 11%, does the Home Secretary really think a real-terms cut in the Home Office budget of 25% and a 20% real-terms cut in the central resource budget for policing constitutes a fair share?
Mrs May
May I first welcome the right hon. Gentleman to his post as shadow Home Secretary? I was pleased to be able to welcome him to his new position with a telephone call and, indeed, to be able to update him over the weekend on the recent events that have taken place—they will be discussed in more detail later this afternoon, of course.
I simply say to the right hon. Gentleman that, yes, it is important for the Home Office to be willing to look at playing its part in dealing with the biggest deficit of any G20 nation, a deficit that was left as a legacy to this country by his Labour Government.
Ed Balls
Police leaders in the west midlands and across the country will have to decide for themselves whether that was an adequate answer. In the last week, the accountancy firm KPMG has estimated that 18,000 police officers will lose their jobs, and the Police Federation says 20,000, which would mean that 1,200 officers would be lost in the west midlands alone in the next four years. Given the impact these cuts will have in the west midlands and across the country, does the Home Secretary agree with these estimates of deep cuts to front-line policing, or does she think that KPMG and the Police Federation have got their sums wrong?
Mrs May
I repeat to the right hon. Gentleman what I said to the right hon. Member for Coventry North East (Mr Ainsworth): the issue of policing and the effectiveness of policing is not just about numbers, which is what he and his colleagues seem to think; it is about how we deploy police staff and the job they are doing out on the streets. I have more confidence in the ability of our chief constables up and down the country, chief constables like Jon Stoddart in Durham, who says that
“our commitment to neighbourhood policing is undiminished”
and the deputy chief constable in Essex who said:
“We are…working on a…new Blueprint for policing…taking the opportunity fundamentally to re-design all aspects of how we deliver our services.”
We are clear that savings can be made without affecting front-line policing. We are doing our bit as a Government in reducing the heavy load of bureaucracy introduced by the right hon. Gentleman’s Government, which will result in police being out on the streets.
Mr David Ruffley (Bury St Edmunds) (Con)
14. What assessment she has made of the likely effect on the administrative burden on police forces of the establishment of the proposed national crime agency.
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
We believe there is a real need to bring a greater focus to the issue of organised crime and other national aspects of policing. The national crime agency will strengthen the operational response to organised crime and better secure our borders. The NCA will contribute to our aim of rationalising the national policing landscape, thereby driving out waste and increasing productivity.
Esther McVey
Will my right hon. Friend assure the House that the new joined-up approach of the national crime agency, which will also incorporate functions from the National Policing Improvement Agency, will not only provide efficiency savings but will give equal attention to the individual regions, mine being the north-west?
Mrs May
I thank my hon. Friend for her question. I assure her that in setting up the national crime agency we are considering efficiency, and efficiency savings. We will be changing the national policing landscape and it is important to put greater emphasis on serious organised crime. Organised crime is calculated to cost this country and society £20 billion to £40 billion a year and it is right that we should do something to enhance our fight against it.
Mr Ruffley
Police forces have to comply with 162 separate protective services standards involving answering 1,099 separate questions. The fact that there is too much process and paperwork prevents the police from catching criminals, so will my right hon. Friend publish an annual statement to the House telling us what she has cut and how much police time she has saved?
Mrs May
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that proposal. I suspect that is exactly the sort of thing that the Policing Minister will be happy to keep the House informed about. As I said earlier, a very good example of the impact of that bureaucracy is the fact that it is reckoned that what we are doing to stop the stop-and-account records and to change the stop-and-search records will save up to 800,000 man hours a year.
Ann Coffey (Stockport) (Lab)
The Missing Persons Bureau is the only UK agency focused exclusively on missing people and is the UK’s national and international point of contact for all missing person and unidentified body cases. What assurances can the Secretary of State give me that the valuable work it does will be recognised when the proposed national crime agency is set up?
Mrs May
The hon. Lady asks a very important question: the work of the bureau is of considerable significance. Work relating to young people has already moved to the Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre and we are considering where it is most appropriate that the bureau’s work relating to adults should sit in the new policing landscape.
Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
Given the concerns that have been expressed by Sara Payne and the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children as well as the evidence given by Jim Gamble to the Select Committee on Home Affairs on 12 October, will the Secretary of State tell the House what evidence base informed the decision to submerge the Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre within the proposed national crime agency, especially given that previous independent reviews had supported CEOP remaining separate?
Mrs May
I welcome the hon. Lady to her position on the Opposition Front Bench. We have considered closely the CEOP issue, but there seems to be a misconception out there that it currently has independent status. It does not: it is part of the Serious Organised Crime Agency. The proposals that we put in the White Paper, which will be coming forward in the Bill with our final decisions, relate to its becoming part of the national crime agency and being able to benefit from the synergies of being part of that agency.
Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)
4. What estimate she has made of the likely effect of the outcome of the comprehensive spending review on the number of police officers in England and Wales in the period to 2014.
Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD)
8. What representations she has received from scientific organisations on the likely effects on the UK’s science base of proposed changes to the immigration rules.
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
Our recent consultation on the immigration system fully involved scientific organisations, which have underlined the importance of being able to recruit the best scientists from around the world. I am aware of the case of the Beatson institute in my hon. Friend’s constituency, and I can assure her that the UK Border Agency is looking closely at this and related cases.
Jo Swinson
I thank the Home Secretary for that reply. She refers to the Beatson institute, which is a world-class cancer research facility that needs to attract the very best scientists in their field, regardless of their nationality. Previously it required about five tier 2 visas every year; that has been cut to just one under the new regime, so I welcome the fact that the issue will be looked at. Does she recognise the damage that could be caused to the Beatson, and to other scientific institutions, as a result of the unintended consequences of the immigration cap, and will she look again at whether an exemption could be made for science and research?
Mrs May
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for recognising that the UK Border Agency will look at the very real case that has been presented by the Beatson institute in relation to its particular requirements. We have a commitment, as a coalition Government, to reduce net migration into this country. I believe that it is important that we do that, but do it a way that will ensure that we can truly attract the brightest and the best into this country to do the valuable work that they do in places such as the Beatson institute.
Andrew Miller (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab)
I presume that there must have been some joined-up thinking in the Government on this matter. Will the Home Secretary therefore publish the cross-departmental analysis that brings together the impact on our science base and competitiveness of Lord Browne’s report, the comprehensive spending review, cuts in departmental science, and the immigration cap?
Mrs May
As the hon. Gentleman has an interest in these matters, he will be aware that the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills has made efforts to protect the spending in relation to research on science. In looking at how we introduce our immigration cap, we will be making efforts to ensure that institutes and universities that require access to truly the brightest and the best are able to have it.
Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con)
11. How many immigrants entered the UK in the most recent period for which figures are available.
Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con)
T1. If she will make a statement on her departmental responsibilities.
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
The Home Office continues to prioritise the counter-terrorism elements of policing. The national security strategy and the strategic defence and security review published two weeks ago will deliver a step change in Britain’s ability to protect its security and advance its interests in the world. To meet the real and growing threat identified from cyber-attack, £650 million of new funding has been allocated to a cross-Government programme to enhance Britain’s cyber-security. While I speak about the Department’s responsibilities, I should perhaps explain for the avoidance of doubt that the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, my hon. Friend the Member for Hornsey and Wood Green (Lynne Featherstone), who has responsibility for equalities and criminal information, has not been able to answer a question today because she has lost her voice.
Jane Ellison
Another real and growing threat for many of us, especially those with urban constituencies, is the use and abuse of dogs as weapons. That is a real problem, which is often associated with gang activity. It is clearly an animal welfare issue, and Battersea dogs and cats home in my constituency has long been a voice on policy on the issue. However, it is also a crime and policing challenge. Will my right hon. Friend update the House on how Home Office Ministers are working with colleagues in the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs following that Department’s recent consultation on dangerous dogs?
Mrs May
I thank my hon. Friend for raising an important issue. It is particularly important for her constituency, for obvious reasons, as she said. The Home Office is reviewing the issue of antisocial behaviour and the tools and powers that need to be made available to deal with it. It is also dealing with Departments across Whitehall, including DEFRA. DEFRA will respond to the previous Government’s consultation on dangerous dogs, looking at issues such as dog licensing and wider issues such as breed-specific bans, once the Home Office has published our proposals on antisocial behaviour.
Mrs May
The prime responsibility of any Government is to keep people safe, and we are very conscious of that. The counter-terrorism legislation review is continuing. No final decisions have been taken on any aspects of that review, but, of course, I have undertaken to inform the House when the review is complete and when the answers to the questions that have been posed are available.
Mr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con)
T2. Following comments by my local police commander, my constituents in the Barnet neighbourhood watch, ably led by Maureen West, have expressed concerns to me about the ring-fencing rule for safer neighbourhoods teams and the impact of possible further cuts as a result of the Government tackling the economic deficit. What assurance can the Minister give me that the reduction in the police family will not lead to a reduction in the police presence on the streets of my constituency?
Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)
T5. We all want to see our police officers out on the beat more, but how will cutting police staff who often free up police officers from administrative tasks help with that?
Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con)
T3. Can my right hon. Friend reassure us that the new immigration cap will reflect the need for businesses to recruit international, highly skilled migrants and to transfer international employees internally? Will she make that process as easy and unbureaucratic as possible?
Mrs May
I thank my hon. Friend for raising the important issue of the impact of immigration on businesses. As we consider how to introduce the immigration cap, we will take on board comments made by business and its requirements in relation to the operation of the system. However, one thing that we have found recently is that nearly one third of those who arrived via the tier 1 route—the brightest and the best highly skilled migrants—did not take on highly skilled jobs. That is something to which we should pay attention.
Phil Wilson (Sedgefield) (Lab)
T8. The Independent Safeguarding Authority in my constituency employs about 250 people. Can the Home Secretary let me know what their future is? What is the future of the authority under this Government?
Mrs May
The Government have a commitment to ensure that we bring the vetting and barring scheme down to common-sense levels. Many people are concerned that the scheme introduced by the previous Labour Government actually reduced people’s willingness to volunteer and to do good in their communities. We are currently reviewing vetting and barring. The impact on the ISA will come out of that review.
Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)
T6. May I ask about border security? Illegal entry at Dover has fallen 18% in the last year. We will no doubt hear more about the excellent work of those who keep our country safe and secure in the statement on aviation security later, but will the Minister congratulate those who keep our country safe?
Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)
We all look forward to the review anti-terrorism legislation, but is it not important that murderous fanatics—another indication of what they are like was given last week—and the enemies of all humanity do not force us to give up long-held, traditional liberties in this country? The sort of changes that the Home Secretary mentioned earlier will hopefully come about despite the current terrorist danger.
Mrs May
The coalition Government are very aware of the need to rebalance our national security requirements and our civil liberties. That is precisely why we have undertaken the review of counter-terrorism legislation. As I indicated in a previous answer, the results of that review will be brought to the House when they are available, but I can assure the hon. Gentleman that we are aware that we need to ensure that we keep the country safe so that people can exercise those ancient freedoms and civil liberties.
Laura Sandys (South Thanet) (Con)
T7. Will the Home Secretary join me in welcoming the shadow Home Secretary’s conversion to our policy of putting antisocial behaviour orders behind us? The shadow Home Secretary said:“I want to live in the kind of society that puts Asbos behind us.”
Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab)
The Home Secretary was reluctant yesterday to confirm the consequences of Government cuts for the police service. Will she give a straight answer to that question today, and confirm that 2,000 jobs will go in the west midlands police service, including those of 400 police officers in Birmingham—40 for each of Birmingham’s 10 constituencies —and does she share my constituents’ fears that, as police numbers fall, crime will go up?
Mrs May
The fight against crime is not simply a matter of the number of police officers, but about how effectively they are deployed and what they are doing. What the Government are doing by releasing police officers from the bureaucracy imposed by the last Labour Government will make them freer and more available to be out there on the streets doing the job the public want them to do.
John Glen (Salisbury) (Con)
T9. In 2004, my constituent Stephen Ings’s son and ex-wife were murdered by an illegal immigrant, Alex George. Will the Minister meet me and my constituent to explain the decision to offer a deferred conditional discharge to Mr George while his appeal against deportation is heard?
Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab)
Will the Home Secretary join me in wishing Northumbria police warm congratulations on the opening of the new area command at the north Tyneside headquarters, especially given that it was built with money from the Labour Government?
Mrs May
I rather hope I might at some stage be given an invitation to visit the new area command. May I say, however, given that Northumbria has been mentioned, that I was pleased to speak to Sue Sim recently, following the difficult time that Northumbria police had earlier this year in dealing with the case of Raoul Moat, to congratulate her on how she and her force dealt with that case?
Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD)
Many international companies contemplating investment in the UK are being put off by the fact that inter-company transfers are defined as coming under the immigration cap. Inter-company transfers mean more jobs for British workers, and they do not stay in the United Kingdom. Will Ministers look at the rules placing inter-company transfers under the immigration cap, otherwise we run the risk of saying, “Yes, we are open for business, but you cannot come in”?
Aviation Security Incident
Baroness May of Maidenhead Excerpts(13 years, 11 months ago)
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The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a statement on the recent airline bomb plot. The House will know that in the early hours of Friday morning, following information from intelligence sources, the police identified a suspect package on board a UPS courier aircraft that had landed at East Midlands Airport en route from Cologne to Chicago. Later during the morning, police explosives experts identified that the device contained explosive material. A similar device was located and identified in Dubai. It was being transported by FedEx to Chicago.
Since then, an intensive investigation has been taking place in this country and overseas. Cobra met on Friday to assess progress, I chaired a Cobra meeting on Saturday and the Prime Minister chaired a further Cobra meeting this morning. I am sure the House will appreciate that much of the investigation is sensitive, and the information I can give is necessarily limited. Disclosure of some details could prejudice the investigation, the prospects of bringing the perpetrators to justice, our national security and the security of our allies, but I want to give the House as full a picture as possible.
We know that both explosive devices originated in Yemen. We believe that they were made and dispatched by the organisation known as al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula. This group, which is based in Yemen, was responsible for the attempted downing of an aircraft bound for Detroit on 25 December last year. The devices were probably intended to detonate mid-air and to destroy the cargo aircraft on which they were being transported. Our own analysis of the device here—analysis that has to proceed with great care to preserve the evidential value of the recovered material—established by Saturday morning that the device was viable. That means not only that it contained explosive material but that it could have detonated. Had the device detonated, we assess that it could have succeeded in bringing down the aircraft. Our forensic examination of the device continues. We are receiving valuable assistance from a wide range of partners, and the analysis has some way to go.
At this stage we have no information to suggest that another attack of a similar nature by al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula is imminent, but the organisation is very active. During this year it has repeatedly attacked targets in Yemen. On 26 April and 6 October it attacked and attempted to kill British diplomats based in Sana’a. It continues to plan other attacks in the region, notably against Saudi Arabia. We therefore work on the assumption that the organisation will wish to continue to find ways of attacking targets further afield.
We will continue to work with international partners to deal with this threat. We have for some years provided assistance to the Yemeni Government and will continue to do so. The Prime Minister has spoken to President Saleh to make clear our desire for a closer security relationship. Following the Detroit incident, Ministers in the last Government took the decision to stop all direct passenger and cargo aircraft flying from Yemen to and through the UK. Over the weekend, we took the further step of stopping all unaccompanied air freight to this country from Yemen. That will include air freight from Yemen both carried on courier flights and hold-loaded in passenger aircraft. The small number of items in transit prior to that direction have been subject to rigorous investigation on arrival in the UK, and no further suspicious items have been discovered.
We are now taking further steps to maintain our security. I can confirm to the House that we will review all aspects of air freight security and work with international partners to make sure that our defences are as robust as possible. We will update the guidance given to airport security personnel based on what we have learned, to enable them to identify similar packages in future.
From midnight tonight, we will extend the suspension of unaccompanied air freight to this country from not just Yemen but Somalia. This decision has been made as a precautionary measure and it will be reviewed in the coming weeks. It is based on possible contact between al-Qaeda in Yemen and terrorist groups in Somalia, as well as on concern about airport security in Mogadishu.
From midnight tonight, we will suspend the carriage of toner cartridges larger than 500 grams in passengers’ hand baggage on flights departing from UK airports. Also from midnight tonight, we will prohibit the carriage of these items by air cargo into, via or from the UK unless they originate from a known consignor—a regular shipper with security arrangements approved by the Department for Transport.
We intend that these final two measures will be in place initially for one month. During that time, we will work closely with the aviation industry, screening equipment manufacturers and others, to devise a sustainable, proportionate, long-term security regime to address the threat. Department for Transport officials are already in technical discussions with the industry, and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport will chair a high-level industry meeting later this week to discuss next steps. These initiatives are in addition to those that we have set out in the strategic defence and security review.
We are already committed to widening checks on visa applicants to this country. Following the Detroit incident, we are also committed to making changes to pre-departure checks to identify better the people who pose a terrorist threat and to prevent them from flying to the UK.
We are committed to enhancing our e-borders programme, which provides data on who is travelling to this country and which is therefore an essential foundation for our counter-terrorist and wider security work. We have an increasingly active and important border co-operation programme with counterparts in the USA. The Detroit incident led to the introduction of further passenger scanning devices at key airports in the UK.
Cobra will continue to meet through this week. The National Security Council will also consider this issue. We will continue to work closely with our partners overseas.
Finally, the House will wish to join me in expressing gratitude to the police and the security and intelligence agencies in this country for the work they are doing to understand the threat we face and to deal with it so effectively.
Ed Balls (Morley and Outwood) (Lab/Co-op)
The whole country has been shocked by the events of the last four days—by the discovery of two concealed and hard-to-detect explosive devices on aircraft, one of which was at East Midlands airport, by the risk that further devices may be at large and by the serious and challenging threat that such terrorist activity constitutes to public safety and our country’s security.
At Home Office questions earlier, I commended the Home Secretary for the calm way in which she has led the response to these threats and chaired and reported on Cobra meetings. I thank her for the Privy Council briefings that she gave me on Friday night and again on Saturday afternoon. I join her in commending our police, intelligence and security services for the brave and vital work they have done over the past few days in close co-operation with allies around the world to save lives, as they do every other day of the year.
It is the job of Her Majesty’s Opposition to ask questions, probe statements and hold the Government to account. That we will do, but we will be mindful at all times of our wider responsibility to support necessary actions to keep our citizens safe and protect our vital national interests. In that spirit, I have questions for the Home Secretary on three issues: the detailed events of the last few days, and the implications for airline security and wider national security.
First, we all appreciate the way in which intelligence and international co-operation are involved. Events move fast, and things are always clearer with hindsight, but at what precise point were the police, the Home Secretary and the Prime Minister first told about the potential threat? Were there delays in getting precise information to our security and police officers on the ground? Why was the device not discovered by police officers during the first search? Could earlier information have made a material difference to the search? What operational lessons, if any, will be learned when dealing with such events in the future?
Secondly, the fact that the two live explosive devices were intercepted by an intelligence tip-off only after they had been carried on at least five different planes, three of which were passenger aircraft, raises serious questions about the security of our airspace. Some security experts have referred to cargo security as a potential blind spot. I understand that Lord Carlile drew attention to the potential risks of cargo transit in his annual reports in 2007 and 2008, and that significant actions were taken to improve intelligence and international security co-operation at that time. I also understand that a tougher search method, called explosive trace detection, was introduced for passenger flights last year following the Detroit attempted attack.
I appreciate that this is a complex problem to solve, that a review has been set up and that the Home Secretary has already acted to ban unaccompanied cargo packages from Yemen and Somalia and put in place temporary restrictions on carrying toner cartridges, but what conclusions does she draw about the reliability of current checks from the fact that the device was not spotted on the first check by police experts at East Midlands airport? Will the review consider extending explosive trace detection from passenger to cargo flights, which I believe has happened in the United States? Will the scope of her review cover cargo carried in passenger as well as cargo aircraft? Should we take any other action now to improve the security of cargo coming into, going out of or transiting the UK while the review is undertaken?
The events of the last few days also raise wider issues for national security and our counter-terrorism strategy. It is clear that terrorists operating out of Yemen constitute an increasing threat, as the Home Secretary said. Can she assure the House that the Government are in urgent discussions with the Yemeni Government and our allies around the world with a view to doing more to interrupt terrorist activities at source? Given the wider evidence of a mounting threat, the judgments that will underpin the Government’s current review of counter-terrorism powers are especially important. Although we will reserve judgment until we see the outcome of the review, I have said that the Opposition will seek to support her where we can and that consensus should be our shared goal.
Finally, I must raise the issue of resources. Given that the explosive devices were intercepted through vital intelligence work, is the Home Secretary confident that a 6% real-terms cut in the single intelligence account over the next four years can be managed without compromising such work? Given that the device was discovered by specially trained police working closely with our security and border services, is she confident that a 10% real-terms cut in counter-terrorism policing over the next four years and a 50% cut in capital available to the UK Border Agency will not undermine operational capability?
The Olympics are now just two years away and the eyes of the world will be on our country. Given that the planned 20% real-terms cuts in police budgets is front-end loaded, and that there will be a 6% cut in the year before the games and an 8% cut in the year of the Olympics itself, can the Home Secretary assure the House that the extra strain that police resources will face will not pose an unacceptable risk to fighting crime and our national security? Does she agree with me that in the light of the events of the past few days, the issue of resources should now be looked at again, alongside the counter-terrorism review?
Mrs May
May I first thank the right hon. Gentleman for the way in which he has responded on this issue? He is absolutely right that this is a not a matter of party political divide, but one of concern to all of us across the House. It is important that we get our response right, and I am grateful to him for indicating that he will support the Government in the measures that we take and the response that we give. He asked a number of detailed questions, some of which were quite operational in type. I will attempt to answer as many of his questions as possible, but if I do not answer his operational ones now, I will be happy to do so in writing afterwards.
The right hon. Gentleman referred to the fact, which I mentioned in my statement, that the initial indication of the device came from intelligence. We do not speak about intelligence sources or say how it came about, but, on timing, I can tell him that the police attended the airport and looked to see what they could find in relation to the device. It took a while before the device was identified as something that contained explosive material. I and the Prime Minister were informed that there was a device containing explosive material at about 2 o’clock on Friday.
The right hon. Gentleman referred to comments from security experts about this being the “soft underbelly”, which is a term that some have used. In relation to cargo and other aspects, I would say that, as I am sure he is aware, we are in a constant battle with the terrorists, who are always looking for another innovative way to get around our defences. Our job, and the job of our security and intelligence agencies and the police, is to ensure that we do all we can to ensure that there are no gaps in our defences. In that context, the work that the Government have already done in introducing the national security strategy and, crucially, in bringing Departments together in our work on security is an important part of that task.
The right hon. Gentleman asked various questions about cargo. The review will cover a number of issues. Obviously, when such an incident takes place, it is right not only that we take stock and that we take action immediately—as we have done—but that we do more work with the industry. As I indicated, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport will be taking that forward, and I can confirm that the review will consider the extension of explosive trace detection, although there are some significant technical issues there. Certainly, however, the review will look at that.
The right hon. Gentleman referred to the counter-terrorism review. As he will have heard me say at Home Office questions earlier, final decisions have not been taken on the review. I am absolutely apprised of the fact that the Government, like every Government, need to ensure that the safety and security of the public are a prime concern. We need to rebalance our national security with our civil liberties, but I am well aware that it is our national security that enables us to enjoy our civil liberties. We remain conscious of that.
The right hon. Gentleman then asked a number of questions about cuts to budgets. He asked whether I was confident in the ability of the security and intelligence agencies to maintain their level of work, and to do their vital job in keeping us safe, and I can say that yes, I am confident. On cuts in policing, as he knows, police forces will be able to take money out of non-front-line policing. On border services, crucially, the coalition Government are committed to enhancing our ability to keep our borders secure, through the introduction of the border police command under the new national crime agency we will be setting up.
Finally, of course the Olympics budget is protected, and a significant part of the Olympics security budget, which is protected within the Home Office, relates to Olympics policing.
Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD)
I thank the Home Secretary, her officials and the police, security and intelligence community for their excellent work in this case. In implementing the comprehensive set of measures that she has announced, will she take into account the fact that there have been reports of variable levels of rigour deployed by different companies responsible for ensuring that the highest inspection standards are enforced throughout our airports? Will she also undertake to ensure that any goods coming directly or indirectly from any country about which we have a particular concern have the same tracking method and the same double security check, which will give the additional assurance we need in regard to people acting mainly from specific places around the world?
Mrs May
I thank my hon. Friend for his comments. Obviously, the review has to consider a number of aspects of how we can defend ourselves against potential attacks of this sort. We can control what we do at our own airports, but of course what is done at overseas airports is not directly under our control. That is why our international work is so important. Generally the UK is looked to as a leader in airport security, and often other countries look to see what we are doing, and enhance their procedures in line with it. Obviously we will be talking to other countries, as well as to airline and airport operators, about the arrangements that they put in place. It is important that we are able to conduct certain tracking operations. For example, I checked with The UK Border Agency just before I came here to make this statement, and I can say that it has been tracking and looking at the ban introduced on Saturday on unaccompanied freight cargo from Yemen, and has confirmed that the prohibition has been operating properly.
Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab)
May I add my commendation to the right hon. Lady for the balanced and calm way in which she has dealt with this difficult situation, something on which my right hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett) and I both have reason to reflect? Given the critical role that intelligence played in the detection of this potential outrage, may I ask her whether she agrees with what Sir John Sawers said last week in advance of this outrage, about the need for accountability for the agencies, but also, above all, about the imperative of secrecy to enable them to do their job with security, which is essential if we are to defeat the terrorist threat?
Mrs May
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his kind remarks, and I agree with him absolutely. By definition, the very nature of the secret services is that part of what they do is secret. It is important that efforts are made where possible to explain to the public the sort of work being done and the sort of issues being addressed. Indeed, there has been a series of speeches in recent weeks—from the director general of MI5, the head of GCHQ and, now, Sir John Sawers—explaining the operation of each of those different agencies, but of course it is axiomatic that secret work has to be conducted in secret.
Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)
I would like to praise the security services and the staff of East Midlands airport, which lies in my constituency. By intercepting that package, they may well have saved lives. Everyone who contributed to that successful operation can be rightly proud. However, I would like to ask the Home Secretary for an assurance that additional screening will be introduced only if it is clearly shown to be necessary, and that any such measures would be implemented on a Europe-wide or worldwide basis, and not in the UK alone.
Andrew Bridgen
In other words, what we need to do is avoid UK-only measures.
Mr Speaker
Order. I think that we have got the drift of the hon. Gentleman’s inquiry.
Mrs May
I thank my hon. Friend for his question. May I join him in commending the work of all those at East Midlands airport, including the police and others working there, for the way that they dealt with the incident? It is one thing to stand here in the House of Commons and talk about such an incident; it is quite another to approach a device that one knows may be explosive and to deal with it on behalf of others. I certainly thank them for their work, and I commend them for it.
On the second part of my hon. Friend’s question, I would simply say that it is not in our gift to mandate the response of others on such issues. However, the work that we will be doing—and that we have been doing as a country over the years—which involves talking to international partners, airlines and airport operators about security levels and the measures that need to be put in place, is part of the process of trying to ensure that, as far as possible, we see enhanced security in other places.
Mr David Blunkett (Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough) (Lab)
May I reinforce the bipartisan approach that my right hon. Friends have already mentioned? The Home Secretary will know that we have a significant Yemeni community in Sheffield, the members of which would want me to offer their support for the measures that she has announced this afternoon and for the way in which she is drawing down experience and expertise. Will she engage the Yemeni community in this country as part of the process of reinforcing the Government’s approach to the Yemeni Government, who face the most enormous difficulties because of historic, geographic and tribal splits, and the way in which al-Qaeda has moved from Saudi Arabia into Yemen, and in some cases is using the discontent of people living there as a way of propagating its terrorist activity across the world?
Mrs May
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his suggestion, and of course that understanding and knowledge of the Yemeni community here in the UK are important to us. The Government have been working closely with the Yemeni Government to try to support them in doing what they want to do, which is to ensure that al-Qaeda is not in Yemen and is not able either to make attacks in Yemen or to use the country as a launch pad for attacks elsewhere. We will continue to work with the Yemeni Government to do all we can to provide them with the support that they need to conduct that task.
Patrick Mercer (Newark) (Con)
The Home Secretary will be aware that the borders of this country do not start and stop with the white cliffs of Dover. Will she outline what resources she intends to deploy directly in support of the Yemeni Government, and, if necessary, as the Department of Homeland Security has done, to work in that country?
Mrs May
I am happy to tell my hon. Friend that work is already under way with the Yemeni Government. Indeed, following the attempted Detroit bombing on 25 December, measures were put in place under the previous Labour Government, and have been continued under this Government, to work with the Yemeni Government and to provide them with various levels of support, particularly around airport security, which was crucial to the attempted bombing of that plane. That work is being funded by the Foreign Office and will be continued. More widely, the Foreign Office has been part of the Friends of Yemen group, bringing in others to ensure that we do all we can to provide the sort of support that the Yemeni Government need in their battle against al-Qaeda, and to help us to fight al-Qaeda, too.
Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab)
The devices were clearly designed to wreak havoc and cause a massive loss of life. I am sure that the country has breathed a sigh of relief that they were detected in this way. The right hon. Lady recognised that intelligence and the sharing of intelligence were key to what has happened. Will she reassure us that our international relationships are robust and strong enough to ensure the maximum sharing of that intelligence? Will she also, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Morley and Outwood (Ed Balls) has indicated, reflect on the fact that the comprehensive spending review says that there will be a real-term reduction in counter-terrorism funding for the police? In the light of such circumstances, I ask her to reflect on that position.
Mrs May
I have already responded on counter-terrorism policing. In answer to the first part of the right hon. Lady’s question about our relationships with international partners, let me say that on intelligence gathering and the sharing of intelligence, the working with international partners is absolutely crucial. We have a particularly close relationship with the United States. Since this incident took place, I have spoken twice with my direct opposite number, the Secretary of Homeland Security, Janet Napolitano. The Prime Minister has spoken to President Obama, and other contacts are taking place with the United States. We are also conscious of the fact that we need to enhance information sharing and working with other partners across the world. For example, last week I was in Pakistan, talking to the Pakistani Government about how can enhance our relationship in the battle that we all fight in dealing with terrorists and the terrorist threat.
Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
My right hon. Friend has already made reference to the processes involved in scanning cargoes. Will she explain to the House whether the main issue is that existing scanners may not pick up a device of this sort, or is it that devices of this sort have been placed on the aircraft in other countries and they would not routinely pass before our own scanners?
Mrs May
I thank my hon. Friend for his detailed question. I am not in a position to give him an absolute answer, because forensic work is still ongoing in relation to the device. Obviously, once that forensic work is complete, we will know rather more about the device and, therefore, about what the response should be in relation to screening that sort of device. Until that forensic work is complete, it would not be appropriate for me to hazard an answer to the point that he has made.
Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)
Mr Speaker, may I declare my interest, commend those who work in East Midlands airport, and warmly welcome the phone conversation between the Prime Minister and President Ali Abdullah Saleh? Does the Home Secretary not agree that the best way to protect our people is to work with the Yemeni Government? That means giving them the equipment and the security capability that we promised them at the London conference in January and implementing the recommendations of the Home Affairs Committee. I implore her to work with the Foreign Secretary and the International Development Secretary to ensure that a stunningly beautiful but desperately poor country does not fall into the hands of al-Qaeda?
Mrs May
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for those points. I understand that the equipment that was promised earlier this year, following the Detroit incident, is to be delivered to Yemen shortly. The Government have been working with the Yemeni Government, and we have common cause against al-Qaeda and will continue to do so for as long as it is in that country. Certainly, my right hon. Friends the Foreign Secretary and the Secretary of State for International Development are cognisant of the role that their Departments can play in helping the Yemen to fight back against the cancer of terrorism.
Mr Ben Wallace (Wyre and Preston North) (Con)
I thank my right hon. Friend for her excellent bulletins and for her statement today informing us of the situation. That has led to a lack of hysteria as the issue has been reported in the media. At times like these, it is easy to reach for the latest piece of technology as a solution, as the previous Government did in the past. In countering terrorism, however, that often ignores the best solution, which is the profiling of people, air freight, destinations and embarkation points. Will the Home Secretary look again at the use of profiling, both for passengers and for freight, to see whether there is not a better way of solving the problem that we are facing from the likes of Yemen?
Mrs May
My hon. Friend raises an issue that has been mentioned on a number of occasions. That approach has been adopted by others. We are looking at all the techniques that we should be using to ensure that we provide the maximum protection for people in the UK. In relation to passengers, we are enhancing our ability at the borders to ensure that those who are a threat to the UK do not travel here.
Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)
I thank the Home Secretary for her statement and commend the security and intelligence services for their great work. Sadly, however, she will be aware that the bomb at East Midlands airport was not the only bomb to be planted or found at a British airport this weekend. A bomb planted by IRA dissidents was found and defused at Belfast City airport. It would have caused casualties, injuries and even death, and I commend the security forces on locating and defusing it. This illustrates the fact that British citizens are subject to attack from a range of sources. Will the Home Secretary give a guarantee to all our citizens, wherever they live, that resources and efforts will be put into combating all kinds of terrorism? The focus is rightly on the incident in the east midlands at the moment, but the people of Northern Ireland are still facing the threat of dissident republican terrorism.
Mrs May
The right hon. Gentleman is right to remind us of the fact that terrorism comes from a number of sources, and not just from al-Qaeda. I commend the security forces and the Police Service of Northern Ireland, not only this weekend but over recent months, for the increasing amount of work that they have done to prevent any incidents of terrorism in Northern Ireland from taking place. Indeed, the right hon. Gentleman will have seen in the national security strategy that we published two weeks ago that we have clearly identified the threat from dissident republicanism as one that we need to address. We are conscious of the fact that the number of attempted attacks in Northern Ireland has been increasing in recent months.
Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)
I commend the security services for doing a remarkable job, but does not the incident involving the Detroit bomber show that other parts of civil society, such as our universities, are failing to get a grip on Islamist extremists? Does the Home Secretary agree that, for our fight against terrorism to succeed, we need to deal effectively with the conveyor belt to terrorism, just as we must deal with the terrorists themselves?
Mrs May
My hon. Friend has raised an important point. I hope that I can reassure him that, alongside our work on the incident at the weekend and on reviewing our counter-terrorism legislation, we are also looking at the development of extremism and the process of radicalisation. It is important that we ensure that people do not get drawn into a radicalised agenda that leads to extremism, violence and terror. That work is ongoing.
Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab)
May I also thank the Home Secretary for her work over recent days, and for her statement this afternoon? In devising more effective ways of screening freight, what role do she and the Secretary of State for Transport envisage for the national aviation security committee, given the important role that the aviation industry plays in that committee’s work?
Paul Uppal (Wolverhampton South West) (Con)
In view of the fact that Yemeni unemployment is running at something like 40% and particularly that the intelligence intercept we received was from a former al-Qaeda operative, and echoing the sentiments expressed by my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon), may I ask the Home Secretary to be mindful of the fact that the battle for young hearts and minds is as important for the long term as any short-term security measures we implement?
Mrs May
I agree with my hon. Friend that the battle for hearts and minds is important. The approach to keeping this country safe is multi-layered. We have spent some time talking about physical security measures, which are an important part of our work to keep the country safe—intelligence and police work are other essential aspects of that work—but it is also important to ensure that we win the battle of hearts and minds, as my hon. Friend suggests. As I said in response to my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon), the Home Office is already looking at the processes of radicalisation and ways in which people turn to extremism. We need to see what can be done to ensure that we stop those routes and encourage people into a different way of life such that they do not want to blow up and kill people.
Mr David Hamilton (Midlothian) (Lab)
As someone who stays 20 miles from Edinburgh airport, I can tell the Home Secretary that the bomb incident in middle England has alerted people to the fact that this is not just a London issue. Has she been in contact with the Scottish, Welsh and Northern Ireland Governments to give assurances—it is especially necessary in Scotland, where there are discussions about moving to just one police force—that the highest levels of security will be maintained in all regional airports?
Joseph Johnson (Orpington) (Con)
Does the Home Secretary agree that the best way of defending this country against the terrorist threat is to win the battle of hearts and minds, as has been said? I happened to spend Saturday and Sunday in Gaza, talking to young Palestinian people, and it was very clear to me that we are losing that battle at quite a rate—in large part because of the continuation of the blockade of Gaza. I wonder whether my right hon. Friend feels that our efforts might best be spent not in reaching for the latest bit of technology—my hon. Friend the Member for Wyre and Preston North (Mr Wallace) mentioned that—but in deploying ever greater diplomatic efforts to resolving that particular long-standing conflict?
Mrs May
There are many issues to be addressed in the fight to prevent the cancer of terrorism. As I said, it is not simply about physical security; many aspects need to be dealt with. I assure my hon. Friend that the Government are well aware of the many issues that need to be considered.
Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)
Given the particular nature of the threat, does the Home Secretary think it might be advisable to think again about cuts in capital for the equipment used in screening and detection programmes at our seaports and airports?
Mrs May
There are two aspects to the expenditure on equipment. Much of the equipment used for screening at airports and some other aspects is paid for by the industry rather than Government. The hon. Gentleman has reminded me that I failed to respond to one of the questions put by the shadow Home Secretary—about capital expenditure at the UK Border Agency. I assure the hon. Gentleman and his right hon. and hon. Friends that, within the capital programme for the UK Border Agency. key aspects of the work needed to enhance our border security, such as e-borders, are protected.
Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)
The Friends of Yemen task group reported back to the United Nations in July on a strategy for Yemen. What steps have been taken to implement the findings, prior to the group’s meeting in Riyadh?
Mrs May
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his question. The Foreign Office has been taking this matter forward, and my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary has been very alive to the need for the Government to be working within that Friends of Yemen group to ensure that steps are taken to support the Yemen Government. I would be happy to ensure that my hon. Friend receives a detailed reply on the particular steps that have been taken.
Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op)
The events of the weekend underline the importance of global intelligence systems, but what new steps can be taken to develop new technologies and techniques to deal with the information that comes from those systems? May we have an absolute assurance that we will take strong action against those who incite mass murder, and that we will not accept any political excuse from those who advocate the killing of human beings?
Mrs May
I am happy to support what the hon. Lady has said about the need to deal with those who purport to encourage others to kill human beings and indulge in mass murder in the name of politics. As for her first question, there are many different aspects, and many different approaches need to be taken in response to intelligence. Some of that response may involve police work, while some may involve physical security work by Governments or others. It is essential for us to think carefully about all the facts that we need to identify and deal with, and we are working on that with airline operators and the aviation industry generally.
As I said in my statement, the screening equipment manufacturers have done helpful work with the Government since the incident involving the plane to Detroit. I look forward to establishing a relationship with those manufacturers, along with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport, as we address yet another issue.
Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con)
In the light of all that has happened recently, I thank the Home Secretary and the Government for making the difficult decision, in straitened times, to increase our overall spending on intelligence in order to combat terrorism. Will the Home Secretary join me in thanking my constituents who work down the road at GCHQ for the vital work that they do to protect our nation, and will she join me in encouraging our schools to make full use of the language immersion centre in Gloucestershire, which will be built soon and which will develop the skills in difficult languages that are so vital to our intelligence work?
Mrs May
My hon. Friend has raised an issue of which he has particular knowledge, but there is probably not much awareness generally of the need for people to be skilled in a large number of languages, including some that are not normally taught. I am happy to commend the work to which my hon. Friend has referred.
Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab)
I thank the Home Secretary for her statement. As one of two Members who were born in Yemen, may I ask for an assurance that she will ask the Secretary of State for International Development to ensure that aid to that country continues at its current level?
Mrs May
As I have already said, my right hon. Friends the Secretary of State for International Development and the Foreign Secretary are very conscious of the role that they can play, and that aid can play, in supporting Yemen. We are working closely with the Yemeni Government to enable them to deal with the al-Qaeda threat that is faced not only by us from Yemen, but by them inside it.
Mr Tom Harris (Glasgow South) (Lab)
As a country we are good at preventing the kind of attacks that we have already seen, but arguably less good at anticipating new forms of attack. Apart from the month-long ban on the carriage of printer cartridges, what bans are the security services considering imposing on items in carry-on luggage?
Mrs May
It is important that the Government have acted now to deal with the threat that we have seen, including the specific issue of printer cartridges. We will do further scientific work. As I said earlier, it is not always appropriate to give details, but I assure the hon. Gentleman that we are well aware of the need not just to respond to what has happened, but to be constantly alert in the future.
Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)
This very disturbing incident coincided with press reports about a possible future fudge on the counter-terrorism review that the Home Secretary is undertaking, in order to meet the needs of some colleagues in the coalition. May I encourage the right hon. Lady to take the position attributed to her in the press and make sure that at all times she puts the protection of the British public ahead of any protection of her coalition partners?
Mrs May
I can assure the hon. Gentleman that the coalition Government as a whole are governing in the national interest, and that we are very conscious that the first task of government is to keep the public safe. As I have said, and as I also said earlier this afternoon in Home Office questions, no final decisions have been taken on the counter-terrorism legislation review, but at such time as they are taken they will, of course, be brought before the House.
Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)
Does this event not undermine the British Government’s justification for continuing to demand that our brave British soldiers continue to risk their lives in Afghanistan—that that keeps Afghanistan free of terrorist camps—and ignore the fact that the terrorist threat is not the Taliban but al-Qaeda, which is free to operate in Pakistan, Yemen and Somalia?
Mrs May
I simply say to the hon. Gentleman that this is not a zero-sum game: it is simply not the case that if we are able to take action against a group of terrorists in one place they just move somewhere else and we then deal with them there. In recent months and years we have seen the sources of terrorist threats become more diverse. Our troops have been doing a remarkable job in Afghanistan with great courage—great bravery—in order to ensure that al-Qaeda is unable to regain a foothold in Afghanistan. Al-Qaeda is, however, starting to operate from other parts of the world; that is the diversity of the threat, rather than simply an alternative one. I therefore say to the hon. Gentleman that it is right that we commend the important and vital work our troops have been doing in Afghanistan, but we must also be aware of the al-Qaeda threat growing in other parts of the world.
Mr Speaker
I am grateful to the Home Secretary and other colleagues for their co-operation.
Vetting and Barring Scheme
Baroness May of Maidenhead Excerpts(13 years, 11 months ago)
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The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
I announced on 15 June that further implementation of the Vetting and Barring Scheme would be halted pending a review of the scheme. Together with my right hon. Friends the Secretaries of State for Education and for Health, I am today announcing the terms of reference for this review which we have collectively agreed.
The review will be thorough and consider afresh the principles and objectives of the scheme and recommend what, if any, scheme is now needed. The review will be developed by officials working jointly across our three Departments and recommendations are expected early in the new year.
The protection of children and vulnerable adults must be paramount. But we must also ensure that arrangements are proportionate and support a trusting, caring society where well-meaning people are encouraged rather than deterred.
In parallel, a review of the criminal records regime will take place, led by the independent Government Adviser for Criminality Information Management, Mrs Sunita Mason. This will be undertaken in two phases and will report firstly on employment vetting systems which involve the Criminal Records Bureau, followed by a report on the broader regime.
The terms of reference for these are below.
Vetting and Barring Scheme Remodelling: Terms of Reference
In order to meet the coalition’s commitment to scale back the vetting and barring regime to common-sense levels, the review will:
Consider the fundamental principles and objectives behind the vetting and barring regime, including;
Evaluating the scope of the scheme’s coverage;
The most appropriate function, role and structures of any relevant safeguarding bodies and appropriate governance arrangements;
Recommending what, if any, scheme is needed now; taking into account how to raise awareness and understanding of risk and responsibility for safeguarding in society more generally.
Criminal Records Review: Terms of Reference
The Criminal Records Review will examine whether the criminal records regime strikes the right balance between respecting civil liberties and protecting the public. It is expected to make proposals to scale back the use of systems involving criminal records to common-sense levels. The review will include consideration of the following issues:
In phase 1:
(i) Could the balance between civil liberties and public protection be improved by scaling back the employment vetting systems which involve the Criminal Records Bureau (CRB)?
(ii) Where Ministers decide such systems are necessary, could they be made more proportionate and less burdensome?
(iii) Should police intelligence form part of CRB disclosures?
In phase 2:
1. How should the content of a “criminal record” be defined?
2. Where should criminal records be kept and who should be responsible for managing them?
3. Who should have access to criminal records databases, for what purposes and subject to what controls and checks? To what extent should police intelligence be disclosed?
4. What capacity should individuals have to access, challenge and correct their own criminal records?
5. Could the administration of criminal records be made more straightforward, efficient and cost-effective?
6. Could guidance and information on the operation of the criminal records regime be improved?
7. How effective is the integration of overseas data into the criminal records regime?
Control Order Powers
Baroness May of Maidenhead Excerpts(14 years ago)
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The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
Section 14(1) of the Prevention of Terrorism Act 2005 (the 2005 Act) requires the Secretary of State to report to Parliament as soon as reasonably practicable after the end of every relevant three-month period on the exercise of the control order powers during that period.
The level of information provided will always be subject to slight variations based on operational advice.
The future of the control order regime
As set out in the previous statement laid on 21 June 2010, Official Report, column 6WS, the Government are reviewing control orders as part of a wider review of counter-terrorist and security powers and measures. This review is ongoing and we will report the outcome of the review to Parliament in the autumn.
The exercise of the control order powers in the last quarter
As explained in previous quarterly statements on control orders, control order obligations are tailored to the individual concerned and are based on the terrorism-related risk that individual poses. Each control order is kept under regular review to ensure that the obligations remain necessary and proportionate. The Home Office continues to hold control order review groups (CORGs) every quarter, with representation from law enforcement and intelligence agencies, to keep the obligations in every control order under regular and formal review and to facilitate a review of appropriate exit strategies. During this reporting period, two CORGs were held in relation to the orders currently in force. In addition, further meetings were held on an ad hoc basis as specific issues arose.
During the period 11 June 2010 to 10 September 2010, one non-derogating control order has been made, with the permission of the court, but has not been served. Two control orders have been renewed in accordance with section 2(6) of the 2005 Act in this reporting period. Three control orders have been revoked during this reporting period. One control order was revoked because it was not possible to meet the disclosure test set out in the June 2009 House of Lords judgment (AF & Others) on article 6 (right to a fair trial) of the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR). Two control orders were revoked as they were no longer considered necessary.
In total, as of 10 September, there were nine control orders in force, all of which were in respect of British citizens. All of these control orders are non-derogating. Four individuals subject to a control order live in the Metropolitan Police Service area; the remaining individuals live in other police force areas.
During this reporting period, one individual pleaded guilty to six counts of breaching his control order and was sentenced to 15 months’ imprisonment.
During this reporting period, 56 modifications of control order obligations were made. Fourteen requests to modify control order obligations were refused.
Section 10(1) of the 2005 Act provides a right of appeal against a decision by the Secretary of State to renew a non-derogating control order or to modify an obligation imposed by a non-derogating control order without consent. One appeal has been lodged with the High Court during this reporting period under section 10(1) of the 2005 Act. A right of appeal is also provided by section 10(3) of the 2005 Act against decisions by the Secretary of State to refuse a request by a controlled person to revoke their order or to modify any obligation under their order. During this reporting period three appeals have been lodged with the High Court under section 10(3) of the 2005 Act.
One judgment has been handed down in relation to substantive judicial review proceedings under section 3(10) of the 2005 Act during this reporting period. In Secretary of State for the Home Department v. AY, [2010] EWHC 1860 (Admin) handed down on 26 July 2010, the court upheld the control order on the basis that there was and remained reasonable grounds for suspecting that AY was involved in terrorism-related activity, that it was and remained necessary for a control order to be imposed on him for purposes connected with protecting the public from a risk of terrorism and that each of the obligations in the control order was and remained necessary for purposes connected with preventing or restricting AY’s involvement in terrorism-related activity. The court also considered and rejected the argument that an unsuccessful prosecution for a terrorism-related offence precludes the Secretary of State from making a control order on essentially the same material as that relied upon by the prosecution at trial.
One judgment has been handed down in relation to a modification appeal under section 10(3) of the 2005 Act during this reporting period. In Secretary of State for the Home Department v. CA, [2010] EWHC 2278 (QB) handed down on 10 September 2010, the court found that the relocation of CA to a different town was not proportionate because of his particular family circumstances.
One judgment has been handed down by the Court of Appeal during this reporting period. In AN v. Secretary of State for the Home Department, Secretary of State for the Home Department v. AE and AF [2010] EWCA Civ 869, handed down on 28 July 2010, the Court of Appeal dismissed the Secretary of State’s appeal against the High Court’s judgment of 18 January 2010 in relation to AE and AF and upheld AN’s appeal against the High Court’s judgment of 31 July 2009. The issue was what the appropriate remedy should be in control order cases where the Secretary of State elects not to make sufficient disclosure to comply with article 6 of the ECHR. The Court of Appeal found that the appropriate remedy in these circumstances is for the control order to be quashed from the date it was made and not for it to be revoked with effect from a date after the control order was served on the individual as the Secretary of State had sought to argue.
Most full judgments are available at: http://www.bailii.org/
Crime and Policing
Baroness May of Maidenhead Excerpts(14 years ago)
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Alan Johnson
That is certainly an issue, particularly in the light of the HMIC-Audit Commission’s joint report. We must take a rigorous approach to its conclusion that, if the Government cut more than 12%, front-line policing will be affected. Perhaps this is one of the reasons why the Audit Commission has been done away with; I hope that HMIC will not come next.
As police numbers reduce, so will their powers. I shall deal with DNA and CCTV in a moment.
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
Before the right hon. Gentleman moves on to other matters, may I tell him that I have been listening carefully to the points that he has made about cuts? He knows full well that his Government had pledged to make 20% cuts in public sector spending. If they were not going to occur in the Home Office, where were they going to be?
Alan Johnson
When we were in government, we decided to pick the priority Departments, and the chosen areas were health, education, international development and crime and policing. It is extraordinary that the present Government—[Interruption.] Hang on! I am answering the question. It is incredible that the present Government believe that international development, health and, to a certain extent, education must be prioritised, and that they are more important than crime and policing. Quite frankly, I can say as a former Health Secretary that we did not commit to increase the health budget above the rate of inflation. That budget was £110 billion. I went from the Department of Health, which had a £110 billion budget, to the Home Office, which had a budget of about £10 billion. We would have saved £73 billion; we would not have gone for a saving of £113 billion, which Boris Johnson described only yesterday as cutting too savagely and too deeply. It is a central feature of this argument that the Government are going too far with the cuts and that they are failing to treat crime and policing as a priority in the comprehensive spending review, even though it is a priority for constituents everywhere.
During the summer, the Home Secretary made a speech saying that we needed to “move beyond the ASBO”. I want to make two things clear. First, the antisocial behaviour order is the most serious of a range of civil powers introduced in 1998 so that the police, local authorities and other agencies could tackle the problem in a co-ordinated way. They needed to tackle the kind of behaviour that falls short of criminality but nevertheless destroys people’s lives. These powers are not driven from Whitehall, as the Home Secretary suggested, but through community safety partnerships that involve community groups and social enterprises.
The second thing that we need to be clear about is that, where those powers are used effectively, they work. I shall lapse into what I hope is uncharacteristic immodesty for a moment when I say that they worked particularly well during my year as Home Secretary, when an additional emphasis was placed on the victim and on intensified activity in localities where public perception of antisocial behaviour was above average.
The social affairs correspondent of The Guardian said recently that these measures had had no discernible effect, but they had a discernible effect in the one place where an effect can be discerned—namely, the British crime survey. The Home Office, under the current Home Secretary, stated on 15 July that, whereas previous reductions had been in one or two specific areas,
“the reduction between 08-09 and 09-10”—
the glorious year of Johnson—
“reflects falls in the proportion of people perceiving a problem with almost all types of anti-social behaviour that make up the overall measure”.
That refers to reductions in abandoned cars, noisy neighbours, drunkenness, drug use, youth nuisance, litter, vandalism and graffiti. Those are all issues for which there were insufficient powers prior to the Crime and Disorder Act 1998. The statistical release went on to say that antisocial behaviour was now at its lowest level since records began, with, for the first time, a majority of the population agreeing that the police and councils were dealing with antisocial behaviour in their local area.
Alan Johnson
No, I will not give way again. It was tedious last time, and it would be tedious again. If the Government want to strike a blow against the surveillance state, they should sack Andy Coulson, not take away CCTV cameras.
We recently learned of another power that was due to be introduced, but is now held in suspended animation. This is a serious point. I refer to domestic violence protection orders, which received cross-party support earlier this year. They are designed to protect instantly women and children who are under threat. ACPO, the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children, Women’s Aid and the Home Affairs Committee urged their introduction to close a major gap in public protection. I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz), who chairs the Committee.
There was no dispute whatsoever about the need for that measure, but although the Home Secretary has said that her
“ambition is nothing less than ending violence against women and girls”,
she presides over a regime that is threatening the enormous progress that has been made in tackling domestic violence over the last 13 years. There has been a 64% reduction since 1997. I am pleased to see that the Attorney-General is present, because he, with rather more grace than the Home Secretary, has recognised the significant increases in successful prosecutions and the sharp fall in the number of discontinued cases, as well as the amazing reduction in domestic violence. However, as the Home Secretary will agree, there is much more to be done in this crucial area.
Thankfully, the Government were forced into a U-turn on anonymity for rape defendants—mainly, I have to say, owing to the work of my right hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley (Caroline Flint), who pursued the issue tirelessly. I think that it is time to execute the same manoeuvre, and to get on with introducing domestic violence protection orders as quickly as possible.
Mrs May
The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. Domestic violence is an issue that should worry Members throughout the House, as, indeed, should all forms of violence against women. If the last Government were so concerned about it, however, can he tell me why it took them 12 years to produce a strategy to end it?
Alan Johnson
The answer is quite simple. The Home Secretary ought to do some research. From 1998 onwards we did not need a strategy, because we had introduced an action plan involving the changes that led to the reduction to which I referred. [Interruption.] The statistics that I quoted came from the Attorney-General and from the Home Office. If we had waited 12 years to introduce any measures to deal with this issue, we would not have reduced domestic violence by 64%.
As I said earlier, during the biggest global recession that we have experienced since the 1930s, crime fell by 9%. During the recession of the 1990s over which the Conservatives presided, it rose by 18%, and domestic violence doubled. That was the legacy of the broken Britain that we remember from those days. It is ridiculous of the Home Secretary to suggest that because we published a strategy to deal with domestic violence against women and young girls and then moved to the next stage, we did nothing for 12 years. We did nothing for 12 years except reduce domestic violence by 64%, and produce all the other statistics quoted so generously by the Attorney-General.
I have dealt with the reduced resources being inflicted on police forces with restricted powers. Let me now deal with the third part of the triple whammy: the imposition of elected commissioners to replace the hundreds of experienced councillors, magistrates and other citizens who sit on our police authorities. Here we see the “we know best” arrogance of the Government in all its depressing detail. The public did not vote for the abolition of police authorities at the general election, or for their replacement by an elected commissioner. This model is opposed by the police, by local councillors of all political persuasions, by ACPO, by the Association of Police Authorities, and by practically everyone who knows anything about policing.
The Local Government Association, under a Tory stewardship, says it does not believe that introducing directly elected individuals is the best way in which to strengthen police accountability. The association believes that such action
“will weaken the ability of the police, councils and other public services to cut crime.”
It could also “fragment local partnerships” and make a “place-based budgeting approach”—I am not sure what that is—“more difficult” to operate. Yet the Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice has said:
“we are not going to consider other models, this is the model we are going to introduce, that is the coalition agreement.”
And so we have a rushed White Paper, “Policing in the 21st Century”. Incidentally, the Conservatives also produced one of these in 1993; it was called “A police service for the 21st century”, so the titles do not change much but the content certainly does. They published the more recent document on 26 July for an eight-week consultation period over the summer break. Helpfully, at the back of the document there is a code of practice on consultations, which includes the criterion:
“Consultations should normally last for at least 12 weeks with consideration given to longer timescales where feasible and sensible.”
Irrespective of where we stand on the political spectrum, the topic under discussion is a major issue about which there are deep reservations. To quote from the code of practice, it is “feasible and sensible” to have a longer consultation than 12 weeks; there is no argument whatever to curtail it.
The first objection to the proposal is its puzzling inconsistency in relation to the approach to elected mayors. While a referendum is necessary if a city or town might have an elected mayor, no such public consultation is proposed for the equally profound step of introducing a single commissioner to replace the collective and diverse wisdom of police authorities—and this, again, from a Government who preach localism.
There is, of course, an attraction in direct accountability; indeed, when we were in government we looked at the issue not once, but twice. However, the difference between us and the dogmatic zealots who now occupy the Treasury Bench—I excuse the Attorney-General from that—is that we consulted properly. Our 2004 consultation found overwhelming opposition to direct elections. Respondents pointed out the dangers of extremist groups succeeding on low turnouts, single-issue groups dominating, a move to a more short-term approach with re-election dependent on quick wins rather than long-term objectives, the politicisation of accountable bodies and the lack of public appetite for elections and the cost of running them. However, the case for directly electing the 17 members of the police authority—which is what we consulted on and which was Liberal Democrat policy at the last general election—is much stronger than that for the replacement of police authorities by a single elected commissioner. This is the most ill-considered and pernicious aspect of the proposal.
Sir Ronnie Flanagan looked at this issue in his 2008 review. He expressed the great fear about a single person with a political mandate exerting pressure that too readily conflicts with operational judgment. He pointed out that it may also be an impediment to collaboration—which, rightly, is a major part of the Government’s White Paper—since the vote for the post will be on localised issues rather than the largely unseen issues of cross-border collaboration.
Flanagan made a number of points from a policing perspective, but an even stronger argument concerns the loss of a body of people who are geographically diverse as well as diverse in terms of ethnicity, gender and background. The Government propose a new body—a police and crime panel—to oversee the commissioner. That is meant to provide the checks and balances. The body will, however, have no say on policing and no veto over the commissioner’s decisions. Therefore, we face the prospect of having an elected commissioner who, as the White Paper makes clear, will have a team of personal appointees, and a police and crime panel to overview the commissioner but not the police, whose overview will be conducted by a single commissioner whose decisions are final. Somewhere in all of this will be elected councillors—and in some places elected mayors. Chief constables will have to find their way around this maze, with all the additional costs involved, while trying to cope with the biggest financial upheaval the police service has ever faced.
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
I beg to move an amendment, to leave out from “House” to the end of the Question and add:
“notes the appalling fiscal deficit left by the last Government and reiterates the urgent need to restore the nation to economic health; recognises that the police will need to play their part in reducing that deficit; and welcomes the Government’s proposed policing reforms, which will deliver a more responsive and efficient police service, less encumbered by bureaucracy, more accountable to the public and, most importantly, better equipped to fight crime.”
The text of the Opposition motion and the 50-minute speech that we have just heard from the shadow Home Secretary provide yet more proof, if any were needed, of the utter state of denial of the Labour party. From listening to the shadow Home Secretary and reading the motion, one would wonder how on earth Labour lost the election; it had such a perfect record on everything. Let me just remind the House of its record. Labour doubled our national debt and left us with the biggest deficit in the G20. As much as Labour Members might now like to pretend otherwise, if they had won the election, they would have had no choice but to take action to reduce the deficit. We know that they were already planning 20% cuts—they just did not have the guts to tell us where those would come from. This afternoon, however, we were told by the shadow Home Secretary that they were going to come from health, defence and local government—[Interruption.] Labour Members say that he did not say that, but I asked him where the cuts were coming from and he said, “Well, they weren’t going to come from policing and education” and that he would have taken—
Alan Johnson
The right hon. Lady really does need to follow the debate and to read the documents. Some £75 million was to come from police overtime, £400 million from procurement and £500 million from process. This was all set out in the pre-Budget report, the Budget and last November’s policing White Paper—£1.3 billion-worth of savings. The Government can keep parroting that we have never set all this out, but the trouble is that we have and it is available to look at.
Mrs May
I say to the shadow Home Secretary that the intervention that he has just made was not the answer given to the question that I put to him earlier about the cuts and on which I was just commenting. The Labour party went into the election promising 20% cuts. He claims that those would not have come from the Home Office budget. I asked him where they would have come from and, as my hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake) has made clear from a sedentary position, the right hon. Gentleman made it clear that they would have come from health—that is what the shadow Home Secretary was saying.
If the shadow Home Secretary will not listen to me—he does not appear to wish to listen to me on the issue of cuts—perhaps he will listen to the following:
“When ... Alan Johnson”—
flails at—
“the coalition for protecting NHS spending against cuts being inflicted elsewhere in Whitehall, Labour looks as if it is indulging in opposition for opposition’s sake. Comfortable it may be. But it will not bring Labour back to power.”
Those are not my words, but those of the former Labour Cabinet Minister, Alan Milburn. So let us hear no more nonsense from those on the Labour Benches about police budgets and police numbers.
Labour’s denial is not just about police funding; it is also about its record on crime and policing. I had hoped that the shadow Home Secretary would use the freedom of being in opposition to get around the country and to be out there meeting people and finding out what they really think about what is happening. He might, thus, have learned about the booze-fuelled violence that takes place in too many of our town centres at night, and about the gang crime in our cities and the antisocial behaviour that makes so many people’s lives a misery. But judging by his speech today, and indeed by the motion, he has not bothered to find out what people actually think—
Mrs May
Wait a moment. That is a shame, because there are occasions when the shadow Home Secretary stops playing party politics and is a bit more candid about his record and about our policies. On licensing, for example, he has said:
“I regret not doing more to tackle the problems caused by binge drinking during my period in office. The Government”—
this coalition Government—
“is right to stop alcohol being sold below cost price. It’s something we should have done.”
Mrs May
The shadow Home Secretary listens selectively to one or two of the things that we say; I have just made the point that sometimes he is willing to put aside party politics and to make statements of that sort. Sadly, we did not hear any of those statements in the speech that he has just given. Instead, we heard the familiar rewritten history of the past 13 years. Let us examine some of the claims that Labour makes about that period. It hired a record number of police officers, but it bound them so tightly in red tape that they are available on the streets for only 11% of their time.
Alan Johnson
I shall say two things on this. Those on the Government Benches are deriding Michael Howard so, first, I should say that it was the White Paper called “A police service for the 21st century”, produced under Lord Howard, that introduced all of the target regime and suggested that the Home Office should be able to appoint the chairs of political authorities. Some of that was the right thing to do. I know that he is derided by those on the Government Benches, but Michael Howard was actually a very successful Home Secretary.
My second point deals with the HMIC’s figure on availability. HMIC talks about the percentage of the police who are available at any one time to be on the streets. The police work in shifts, and some police officers are sick, some have to be in court, some deal with counter-terrorism and some deal with child pornography, so that statistic is meaningless. Many police officers have been quick to point that out. There is no way in which under the previous Government that availability rate would have been any higher.
Mrs May
I say to the shadow Home Secretary that I am deeply disappointed in what he is saying. I will tell him who that statistic means something to—it means something to my constituents, and to those of other hon. Members, when they do not see police on the streets. They know the reality, but sadly the shadow Home Secretary is not willing to accept it. The reality is that because of things that his Government did we have seen that police officers have been tied up in bureaucracy and red tape, kept in police stations filling in forms when they could have been out on the streets, where people want to see them and where they want to be.
This is not just about the bureaucracy faced by police officers; the previous Labour Government passed a record number of laws, but left office with nearly 900,000 violent crimes taking place a year. They spent a record amount on criminal justice, but they left office with 26,000 victims of crime every single day. Labour Members might think that that is a record to be proud of, but we do not and neither do the British people.
Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden) (Lab)
Could the right hon. Lady tell us how many of those victims would support her suggestion to get rid of antisocial behaviour orders or would support the reduction in the number of CCTV cameras? Has she ever come across a constituent who wants to see fewer CCTV cameras?
Mrs May
Once again, the trouble with the Labour party is that it is making up things about what our policy is, purely in order to meet the arguments that Labour Members want to bring into this House. On CCTV, we have said that we want better regulation of it and automatic number plate recognition—ANPR—and it is right and proper for us to introduce that. If the Labour party thought that there was nothing to be done about CCTV, why did it start looking at introducing somebody to examine the regulation of CCTV? The regulation of CCTV is important and I suggest to the hon. Lady that she does not go around trying to suggest that the Government are going to get rid of CCTV cameras as a result of our policy to regulate those cameras better.
The hon. Lady has given me a welcome opening here, because I wanted to go on to discuss not only the record of the previous Labour Government, but what we are going to do— that is despite the fact that this is an Opposition day debate. I want to talk about how we as the new coalition Government will deliver effective policing that cuts crime in an era of falling budgets, because we on this side of the House are determined not only to tackle the legacy of debt we have been left with by the last Government, but to make sure we deliver high-quality public services even as we reduce public spending. If we are to succeed, the policing reforms I announced to the House before the summer recess, which were so derided by the shadow Home Secretary, will be vital.
Despite spending more on criminal justice than any comparable country, we remain a high-crime country—the chance of being a victim of crime here is higher than almost anywhere else in Europe—[Interruption.] Those on the Labour Front Bench are making lots of comments from a sedentary position, but that is again part of the denial. The idea that this country is somehow a wonderful world where people do not experience crime or antisocial behaviour because of the impact of the last Government is completely false. We remain a high-crime country and we need to do something about it. The complacency on the Opposition Benches about this issue is, frankly, breathtaking.
Alan Johnson
Will the Home Secretary confirm that the figure, which is in the White Paper, comes from the international crime victims survey, which was last carried out in 2004 and surveys 2,000 people—in comparison with the British crime survey, which surveys 45,000 people—and sometimes takes its statistics from those convicted, a very important point that was raised in an earlier intervention, and sometimes has nothing to do with the level of crimes? It is not a basis for saying that we have the highest crime rates in Europe. Will she confirm that?
Mrs May
What I will confirm is that yet again, in this debate, we have seen from those who made up the Labour Government an unwillingness to accept what people out there see and feel on their streets. It is about issues of crime and levels of crime in this country that are not acceptable. Whatever the right hon. Gentleman says about the figures, I think that figures such as those that I quoted earlier—26,000 victims of crime a day and nearly 900,000 violent crimes a year—are not figures to be proud of. They are figures that we need to deal with. We need to do more and that means unfettering the police and allowing them to get out on the streets and to do what they should be doing, which is dealing with crime.
Hazel Blears
The right hon. Lady is right that there is always more to do in tackling crime. The Labour party has never been complacent about how important these issues are to the British public. However, does she not accept that there is now the lowest risk for more than 20 years in this country of becoming a victim of crime? Of course we are not perfectly safe but we are an awful lot safer than we used to be under previous Governments.
Mrs May
I am disappointed in the line that the right hon. Lady has taken. She made an important and valid point earlier in her intervention on her right hon. Friend the shadow Home Secretary about antisocial behaviour and the important fact that all too often the perception of antisocial behaviour is worse in deprived communities and those communities that are among the poorest and most vulnerable in our country. My point is very simple: none of us can be complacent about levels of crime in this country. We need to find the ways in which we can reduce crime and in which we can help the police to do their job.
Mr Brian Binley (Northampton South) (Con)
My right hon. Friend will be aware that Northamptonshire people have little to thank the previous Government for. They reviewed formula funding in a way that benefitted the county and then failed to implement it. They admitted that the population figures used were incorrect but failed to act on them and they cheated Northamptonshire police out of millions of pounds a year. On that basis, will my right hon. Friend meet a delegation from Northamptonshire and, I hope, talk about reviewing formula funding?
Mrs May
Either I or the Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice would be very happy to meet delegations of colleagues, but I must say to my hon. Friend that the Lincolnshire Members of Parliament have already got in before him to discuss their bid on formula funding. However, as I have said, I am happy to meet such a delegation, as is the Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice.
Let me turn to the point about the accountability of the police and the policing reforms that we will put forward in the police reform and social responsibility Bill. Our changes to the accountability of the police will be crucial in ensuring that they once more become crime fighters instead of form writers. Central to those reforms is the idea that we want to get rid of the inefficient and ineffective processes of bureaucratic accountability, where power rests with Whitehall civil servants, and replace it with direct democratic accountability, with power placed back in the hands of the people. Not only will that make the police truly responsive to the needs of the public, but it will mean a more efficient and innovative police service, free from the meddling of central Government. We can be as aggressive as we like in cutting police paperwork—and we are—but we will never achieve the culture change we need until we deal with the driver of the problem and that is Whitehall.
As I noted earlier, according to the recent report by Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary that is cited in the motion, only 11% of police officers are visible and available to the public at any one time. It is not as if the Opposition were not warned about that when they were in power. The shadow Home Secretary has quoted Sir Ronnie Flanagan, but he said in his review that the difference in paperwork now compared with when he was a front-line officer was “truly staggering”. Jan Berry, the last president of the Police Federation, said:
“As a result of Government diktats, the service has been reduced to a bureaucratic, target-chasing, points-obsessed arm of Whitehall”.
The last Government did not listen, but we will. Already we have cancelled the top-down public confidence target and scrapped the policing pledge. We are reducing the reporting requirements for stop and search and we are scrapping the stop form in its entirety. We will return charging decisions to officers for minor offences and we will reform the health and safety rules that stop police officers intervening to protect the public.
That is just the start. Shifting the model of accountability from the centre to local communities removes the need for pages and pages of bureaucracy and it removes the temptation to Home Secretaries to issue initiative after initiative.
Keith Vaz
Of course, we welcome the steps taken by the Home Secretary to reduce bureaucracy, but the previous Government were also committed to reducing bureaucracy. That goes back, as the Home Secretary has said, to the Flanagan report. Will she commit herself to ensuring that Jan Berry, when she delivers her final report, can continue the good work that she is doing in monitoring the level of bureaucracy and advising the Government from outside the Home Office about the need to continue along this path?
Mrs May
We obviously look forward to the results of the further work that Jan Berry has been doing in this area. The right hon. Gentleman started his intervention by commenting that the last Government intended to reduce bureaucracy, but the problem was that they did not. We have come in and within a matter of months we have shown specific examples of where we can reduce that bureaucracy.
Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab)
On that point, my recollection is—I think that the shadow Home Secretary said this in his contribution—that the previous Government did make some progress on bureaucracy. My concern, particularly on stop and search and stop and account, is that we have a long history in this country of recognising that they can have particular effects on particular communities. I hope that the right hon. Lady will be sensitive, particularly in relation to my constituency, to the fact that we have a long past during which this issue has been at the absolute apex of concern about crime. I do not want to see the sort of problems that we had in the 1980s again. When she says that bureaucracy is being reduced as regards stop and account, will she say whether there will still be accountability for stopping ethnic minorities, in particular?
Mrs May
I recognise the right hon. Gentleman’s concerns. He makes particular reference to his constituency, and there will be others who will share his concern. That is why, as I said, we are reducing the reporting requirements for stop and search. We fully recognise that we need to do that in a sensitive way that notes and deals with the issue that he has raised.
In addition to dealing with bureaucracy, we will introduce directly elected police and crime commissioners—single, named individuals who will be democratically accountable to their communities. That accountability will be real and will be provided not by invisible police authorities—surveys show that only 7% of people know that there is a police authority they can go to if they have a problem with the police—and not by Ministers hundreds of miles away in London, but by people themselves. The police commissioner will be somebody whom people have heard of, whom they have voted for, whom they can hold to account and whom they can get rid of if they do not cut crime. So we will leave local crime fighting to local crime fighters, but we will not forget cross-border, national and international crime. It is an irony that for years the Home Office has tried to micro-manage local policing from the centre while it has neglected policing at the national level. That is why we will establish a national crime agency with a proper command structure to fight serious organised crime and to control our borders.
I understand that it was only yesterday that the Opposition added antisocial behaviour to their motion. The shadow Home Secretary spent quite a bit of time on it in his speech, but he forgot to mention his own quote about the last Government’s record on antisocial behaviour, when he said:
“We became a bit complacent…we…dragged our feet by not making it a priority.”
He claimed that the police have the powers they need to deal with antisocial behaviour and that there is a range of 15 options that they can use, but the fact that there are so many options is precisely the problem. We have individual support orders, acceptable behaviour contracts, antisocial behaviour injunctions, antisocial behaviour orders and criminal antisocial behaviour orders. There is a whole list of options that increases the bureaucracy and complexity and means that in many areas, the police, councils and local people find it very difficult to decide what is appropriate, and that all too often things are not applied.
The shadow Home Secretary should also know that three quarters of incidents of antisocial behaviour are not reported and that more than half of ASBOs are breached. Again, that is not a record of which to be proud or on which to be complacent. That is why we need to look at the whole toolkit that is available to the police in dealing with antisocial behaviour. No number of sanctions is a match for local policing that is responsive to local needs. That is what this Government’s police reform agenda will deliver—simpler, smarter sanctions that are faster to obtain, easier to enforce and that provide a strong deterrent and a real punishment.
Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con)
One of the main problems encountered by those dealing with ASBOs has been the inordinate length of time it can take for applications to succeed, only for people then to find that the problem that they were dealing with has gone away or has transmogrified into something else. Secondly, CRASBOs, or criminal ASBOs—I am sorry about using that acronym, or euphemism; it does not matter—are totally ineffective. They are afterthoughts that are bolted on to convictions and their enforcement has been nothing short of lamentable.
Mrs May
My hon. Friend makes a very strong point about the panoply of ASBO powers that are available. The important point is that the bureaucracy involved in getting an ASBO means that, all too often, nothing is done, because it takes so long to get something enforced. That is why so many communities up and down the country find that the orders are not working and why they continue to suffer from antisocial behaviour.
Geraint Davies
It is very generous of the right hon. Lady to see me. I could not sit any closer; I have been doing my best. Will she say how her Government expect to reduce the number of short-term prison sentences—now a clear and amplified ambition—at the same time as getting rid of ASBOs and the current means of reducing those short-term measures without a massive escalation of crime and antisocial behaviour in the community?
Mrs May
The hon. Gentleman should not try to second-guess what may or may not be in the sentencing review that will come from the Ministry of Justice. There is a commitment to reviewing sentencing and I suggest that he should wait until that comes out, when he will be able to make his comments.
One area that I want to speak briefly about, which has not been touched on much today, is the unmitigated disaster of Labour’s Licensing Act 2003. One in three people who turn up in accident and emergency have alcohol-related injuries, and alcohol-related crime and disorder costs the taxpayer up to £13 billion every year. When that legislation was introduced, we were promised a café-style culture, but five years on the police are still fighting an ongoing battle against booze-fuelled crime and disorder. So we will overhaul Labour’s Licensing Act to ensure that local people have greater control over pubs, clubs and other licensed premises. We will allow local authorities to charge more for late-night licences, which they will then be able to plough back into late-night policing in their areas. We will double the fine for under-age sales and we will allow authorities permanently to shut down any shop or bar that persistently sells alcohol to children. We will also ban the below-cost sale of alcohol to ensure that retailers can no longer sell it at irresponsible prices. As I have said, I welcome the support for that which we will have from the Opposition.
In today’s motion and in the shadow Home Secretary’s speech, he and the Opposition have fallen into the trap of thinking that they need to oppose everything the Government do just for the sake of it. They are denying the legacy of debt that they have left to this Government and they oppose the Budget cuts that they had planned to make. In denying their record, they oppose the police reforms that they once proposed, so let me try to shake the shadow Home Secretary out of his state of denial. Police officers are available on the streets for just 11% of their time and there are 900,000 violent crimes a year and 26,000 victims of crime every single day. That is the legacy of the Labour party and it will be up to the coalition Government to put things right.
Sir Gerald Kaufman
I hope that the hon. Gentleman will give me a moment, but if I have time, I shall certainly give way.
We must also consider the situation surrounding antisocial behaviour orders. We pioneered ASBOs in Manchester and have a remarkable record on that. Inspector Damian O’Reilly has just received the Greater Manchester police’s community police officer of the year award and will be entered in the national finals in November. He has given me information about how ASBOs have dealt with gangs in my constituency. That has been praised by a judge. When certain people who had been detected and rounded up by the police were found guilty by that judge, he said:
“It’s time to give Ryder Brow”—
which is in my constituency—
“back to the residents”.
Inspector O’Reilly—he is someone who is doing this work—says that he has found ASBOs
“to be really effective in breaking up the dynamics of problematic groups”.
He goes on to state:
“Were ASBOs to be abolished it would be devastating for both the community and the officers who put so much effort into obtaining them, the problems would reoccur and the only winners would be the criminals.”
The Home Secretary states—although it is impossible to say how she knows this—that only a proportion of antisocial behaviour is reported. She seems to suggest that that is an indictment of ASBOs, but only a minute proportion of rapes are ever reported by rape victims—a tiny number of women report rapes—so does that mean that we should not have legislation to deal with rapists? The right hon. Lady puts forward an utterly absurd argument.
No Government have ever had a perfect record on law and order, but the Labour Government improved things and made it possible for the police at the sharp end to improve the situation in my constituency. Time will tell what will happen as a result of the Government’s proposals and the objectives that the Home Secretary set out today. If she is right, we will have to acknowledge that, but if she is wrong, the Government will be to blame and they will have to carry the can. What they are doing is likely to make the criminal more rampant while the householder who is burgled and the person who is knocked down on the street become more vulnerable.
Sir Gerald Kaufman
But neither the right hon. Lady nor I can provide statistics for next year or the year after, and we will judge her on them.
Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)
We have had an interesting debate, and the level of interest in crime and policing provision has been demonstrated by the fact that 22 right hon. and hon. Members have spoken. That is a significant number of people who have expressed an interest in the concerns before us.
I would like to start be reiterating the Opposition’s central charge against the Government’s proposals to date. The record of the previous Labour Government was one of achievement and one of which Labour Members can be proud. It drove forward changes that I am proud of today and introduced cultural changes to the police service, but it will be put at risk by the Government’s actions in the next few weeks and months. In particular, that record will be put at risk—this is the major charge in the motion—by the proposals to cut the resources of the police service. That proposal, which was actually encouraged by the Home Secretary and the Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice—they did not fight the Treasury—will mean that we will face potential major reductions of 20 to 25% in the police service budget. That will create major difficulties in the future—[Interruption.] The Minister says, “How do you know that?” I know it because it was stated in the pre-Budget report and indicated to police forces across England and Wales. I hope that that does not happen, but I expect it to do so.
I am talking not just about funding issues, but about the policy choices that the Home Secretary and the Minister are making over CCTV, DNA, domestic violence protection orders, control orders, the direct election of police officials and penal policy. That will all put us on a collision course—it has the potential to drive crime up and to lose us the record that we have had to date. I am proud of what the Labour Government did. My hon. Friend the Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans), my right hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Gorton (Sir Gerald Kaufman), my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve McCabe), my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz), and my hon. Friends the Members for Lewisham East (Heidi Alexander) and for Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain McDonagh) all praised the work of the previous Government.
We should remind ourselves of what my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson) said. The crime survey has shown that crime has fallen 43% since 1997, confidence in policing is up, violent crime fell by 42% in those 13 years, overall personal crime fell 41%, household crime fell 44%, vehicle crime fell, convictions rose, there are more people in prison and we have longer sentences. As a result of that, crime is down by 43% overall, as I said. I am not saying it was perfect, because it was not. If an individual is subject to a crime, to them it is 100% crime. [Interruption.] I am being heckled about reoffending rates, but those actually fell by 20% under the Labour Government. The number of new entrants into the criminal system also fell under the Labour Government, because we made the required investment in many areas.
Members on both sides of the House have mentioned that we have record numbers of police officers—143,734 police officers and 16,000 police community support offices. My hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham and Morden and my right hon. Friend the Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears) mentioned that they value the fact that PCSOs provide that service on the streets, giving reassurance. Those officers were not there, in any shape or form before the previous Labour Government came to power. There are also 17,000 more police officers now than in 1997. That investment has made the difference in reducing crime. I simply put that on the record, because although what we did was not perfect, it shows that we made a difference for people in constituencies throughout the United Kingdom by reducing crime.
We did that not just because we put resources into policing and police community support officers, but because we also did what Tony Blair said we would do, which was try to tackle the causes of crime, as well as crime itself. The past three years have seen the youth crime action plan, putting money into prevention work across the country and supporting after-school activities, weekend initiatives and a range of measures to help tackle crime and the causes of crime; putting money into antisocial behaviour initiatives, with the thresholds that we set until March this year to try to encourage local councils to have minimum standards; and looking at issues such as family intervention projects and Sure Start. Indeed, the word “gobsmacked” came to mind when I heard a Conservative Member say how much they welcomed and enjoyed Sure Start. My hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull East (Karl Turner)—in a sedentary intervention, albeit a prescient one—said, “Aren’t the Conservative Government pledged to abolish Sure Start?” We will see in due course.
Tackling the causes of crime and putting resources into policing and police community support officers made a difference. Crime fell under the previous Labour Government. However, that is not to say that we would not have made savings had we been re-elected on 6 May. Indeed, let me point to the White Paper that I produced as Policing Minister in December last year, supported by my right hon. Friend the now shadow Home Secretary, to show that not only were we trying to take forward policing initiatives; we also recognised that we could, should and would have saved money by doing things more efficiently.
Those efficiencies included reducing the overtime bill by £70 million—the hon. Members for Weaver Vale (Graham Evans) and for Peterborough (Mr Jackson) made points about that—and developing national procurement standards for police officers’ uniforms, beat cars and air support, thereby saving resources in what our 43 forces do; standardising procurement of body armour; cutting stop-and-search paperwork; piloting the transfer of Crown prosecution powers to the police for lesser offences; and looking at encouraging voluntary mergers, with a £500 million fund that I put in place as Policing Minister for that purpose. Government Members raised the question of exposing and developing good practice. The Quest programme, which we supported, did just that; indeed, it extended it, including in Weaver Vale, Cheshire, Runcorn and Warrington. In total, savings of more than £1.3 billion by 2014 were identified by the then Labour Government.
Those savings would have been seen through by the Labour Government, but the choice that the Conservative Government are making is to go beyond that. They are doing what my right hon. and hon. Friends have mentioned, which is cutting public spending because they believe in cutting spending, not because they need to tackle the deficit now. That is the choice that the Conservative Government have made. Every right hon. and hon. Member on the Labour Benches went into the election with a commitment to maintain health, education, and policing and crime expenditure. We were elected on that basis—[Interruption.] The Home Secretary indicates that that is not correct, but that was in our manifesto, upon which we were elected. I confess that it did not reach the hearts of all parts of the country, but it secured us the mandate to argue today for that expenditure for the future.
What have we seen from the coalition Government? In July, we saw cuts of £125 million to a budget for this year that they agreed in February and which we proposed when we were on the Government Benches as Ministers. We are now seeing cuts of potentially 25 to 40% in the number of police officers, which, as my right hon. Friends the Members for Leicester East and for Salford and Eccles, and my hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield (Toby Perkins) said, will damage the ability of police officers on the streets. I happen to contend that, funnily enough, investment in police officers and community support officers has meant that crime has fallen accordingly. The chief constables of Humberside, Gwent, Kent and Cambridgeshire have all predicted deep cuts that will have a profound impact on the crime-fighting abilities of their forces.
As if that were not enough, we find that the Conservative-Liberal Democrat coalition is starting to dismantle some of the policies that have made a real difference on the ground in our communities, including tackling antisocial behaviour through the use of antisocial behaviour orders. I am extremely surprised by that. I grew up in the 1980s, and I believed that the Conservatives were the party of law and order. That is what they told us, every week and every month. That is what they told us all the time. Now, antisocial behaviour orders have been shown to make a real difference on the ground in stopping antisocial behaviour, with 65% of recipients stopping offending when the ASBO is put in place, and 95% stopping after their third order has been issued. However, the Conservative coalition is going to dismantle that system.
The policing pledge, which sets minimum standards of service for the communities that we represent, is also going to be thrown out of the window by the Conservative coalition. The ability to use DNA to bring criminals to justice is also to be thrown out of the window, despite the fact that, in the debate on the Crime and Justice Bill before the election, the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats supported proposals under which people who had not been convicted of a crime—but who could potentially have been criminals—would have had their DNA stored. I look forward to a day that could be disastrous for the Government, if people are committing crimes when they could have been prevented from doing so. People could be killed, injured, raped or attacked, but individuals—[Interruption.] I say to the Deputy Leader of the House, the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr Heath), that there are balances to be struck in this regard. An individual might have been caught by the police but not charged. His DNA might have been collected. In 90% of cases, according to our current research, such a person could potentially commit a crime in the future. I look forward to being able to say that we could have prevented some of those crimes from being committed.
The domestic violence protection orders, which the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats did not oppose in the Bill in February, are now to be ditched by the Home Secretary.
Mrs May
I am grateful to the shadow Minister for giving me this opportunity to make it absolutely clear that we have not ditched domestic violence protection orders. We have deferred their introduction to ensure that, if we take the decision to carry on with them, they will be the most effective way of dealing with the issues that we all agree need to be dealt with. They have not been ditched.
Mr Hanson
We must look forward to the fact that two pilot schemes are being held back when they could have been developed.
On the issue of CCTV, there is certainly a need for regulation, but individual Government Back Benchers have said—[Interruption.] Well, when we were in government, we were considering proposals for regulation. The fact is, however, that the present Government believe in reducing the number of CCTV cameras and in ensuring that they are not deployed to the extent that we believe they should be. Hon. Members have given their views on that as well.
At the same time, a massive reorganisation of the police service is now pending, which will result in police forces taking their eye off the ball when it comes to fighting crime. The introduction of directly elected commissioners will cost £50 million. Nothing has yet been said about their roles and responsibilities, about who will set the precept, about qualifications or about staffing. The Government are developing a whole range of issues that will ensure that the police focus on reorganisation and not on their core business of fighting crime in the community at large.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Salford and Eccles mentioned control orders, the fight against terrorism and the Prevent budget. These are serious issues, but the Government are setting the needs of what they view as civil liberties against the need to protect the community at large. Again, I look forward to examining those issues in detail, so that we can hold the Government to account on terrorism, international crime, drug running and regional crime.
The Labour party would have maintained the resources for fighting crime and developing policing. We would have increased the efficiency of the police service and allowed the police to look outwards to the public they serve. We would have strengthened the police authorities and ensured that crime continued to fall, as it did during the 13 years of the Labour Government. I look forward to taking on the Government on these issues. We will expose their softness on crime while ourselves adopting the position of the party of law and order. We shall expose their failings over the weeks, months and years ahead.
Extradition Review
Baroness May of Maidenhead Excerpts(14 years ago)
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The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
I am today announcing to Parliament the Government’s plans to review the UK’s extradition arrangements.
The coalition’s programme for Government document published on 20 May, stated that
“We will review the operation of the Extradition Act—and the US/UK extradition treaty—to make sure it is even-handed”.
This announcement sets out how we propose to do this.
There are a number of areas of the UK’s extradition arrangements which have attracted significant controversy in recent years. The Government understand that these are long-standing concerns and the review will therefore focus on five issues to ensure that the UK’s extradition arrangements work both efficiently and in the interests of justice. These issues are:
breadth of Secretary of State discretion in an extradition case;
the operation of the European arrest warrant, including the way in which those of its safeguards which are optional have been transposed into UK law;
whether the forum bar to extradition should be commenced;
whether the US-UK extradition treaty is unbalanced;
whether requesting states should be required to provide prima facie evidence.
The review will be conducted by a small panel of experts who we are now seeking to appoint. We expect the review to report by the end of the summer 2011.
Equality Act 2010
Baroness May of Maidenhead Excerpts(14 years ago)
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The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
The Equality Act 2010 includes an integrated public sector Equality Duty. This will replace the existing race, disability and gender equality duties and is extended to cover age, sexual orientation, religion or belief, pregnancy and maternity and gender reassignment in full.
Schedule 19 to the Act lists certain bodies which will be subject to the duty. The Act contains a power allowing a Minister of the Crown to add bodies to this list and it also contains a power for a Minister of the Crown to impose specific duties on listed public bodies to help them in better performance of the duty.
On 19 August 2010 the Government published a consultation document setting out draft regulations for the new specific duties and proposing which bodies should be added to schedule 19 and subject to the specific duties.
The consultation period will run until 10 November 2010.
I am placing copies of the consultation document in the Libraries of both Houses. Copies are also available on the Government Equalities Office website at: www.equalities.gov.uk.
Oral Answers to Questions
Baroness May of Maidenhead Excerpts(14 years ago)
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Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)
1. What progress is being made on the Government’s review of alcohol licensing.
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
The Government are determined to tackle alcohol-related crime and disorder. We launched the consultation “Rebalancing the Licensing Act” on 28 July. We have held seven national and seven regional stakeholder events to consult with the police, licensing authorities and representatives from the trade on the coalition Government’s proposals. The Government will be analysing the responses, and we intend to take forward the proposals in the forthcoming police reform and social responsibility Bill.
Nick Smith
The misuse of alcohol has a considerable negative impact on the health of our citizens, and it increases crime. What will the Government do to stop the inappropriate and excessive advertising of alcohol, often geared towards young people, in cinemas, on commercial TV stations and in TV storylines?
Mrs May
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his observations. He is absolutely correct to raise the health impact of alcohol as well as its impact on crime. The most recent figures show that over the five years to 2008-09, there were 825 more alcohol-related admissions to hospital per day than during the previous five years. This is a very real issue. We are considering a number of actions in relation to the sale of alcohol, the unit cost of alcohol and the powers of licensing authorities. If the hon. Gentleman has a specific proposal, I suggest that he puts it to the Home Office as part of the consultation.
Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con)
The media often focus attention on celebrities and footballers as poor role models for children, but does the Home Secretary recognise the sad fact that almost 1 million children have an alcohol-dependent parent as a role model? What more can the Government do to prevent so many families from being broken by alcohol abuse?
Mrs May
My hon. Friend also raises an important point about the impact that alcohol can have. He has taken an interest in such issues, particularly the impact on family life, for some time. The first thing for the Government is to give a clear message about alcohol through the action that we take on licensing. Sadly, a message was given by the last Government, with their 24-hour licensing laws that were due to create a café culture in the United Kingdom, but failed to do so. We have seen that leading to more problems with alcohol.
Mr Alan Campbell (Tynemouth) (Lab)
What plans does the Home Secretary have to ensure that licensed premises apply effective age verification procedures?
Mrs May
The hon. Gentleman also raises an important point about trying to ensure that alcohol is used responsibly and that those with responsibility to ensure that alcohol is being consumed or purchased only by those of an age to do so should act appropriately. One of the issues that we are looking at specifically in our proposals is the action that can be taken against shops or bars found to be persistently selling alcohol to children. We are considering giving greater powers to councils and police to shut such premises down permanently.
Mr Douglas Carswell (Clacton) (Con)
3. What steps she is taking to reduce the number of non-departmental public bodies sponsored by her Department.
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
The Government are committed to making substantial reforms to their public bodies and intend to bring forward a public bodies Bill later this year, giving Ministers the power to abolish or merge public bodies, or transfer their functions back into Departments. The Home Office is pursuing radical reforms as part of a Government-wide review of public bodies and I have already signalled my intentions by announcing the abolition of the National Policing Improvement Agency.
Mr Carswell
The Association of Chief Police Officers, or ACPO, is not a conventional non-departmental public body. As a private company, it receives millions of pounds in Home Office grants, has a massive say over how we are policed, is exempt from freedom of information requests and is almost totally unaccountable. Is that status compatible with the Home Secretary’s admirable desire to democratise control over policing? Will she either change ACPO’s status or stop giving it so many grants and so much say over public policy?
Mrs May
I thank my hon. Friend for that question. He has referred to our intention to change the accountability of police forces, set out in our consultation document “Policing in the 21st Century”. We also said in that document that we are looking to change the role of ACPO and talking to ACPO about the necessary changes. Moving ACPO on to a basis of leading in setting standards and showing professional leadership in the police force is the appropriate way forward, and that is what we will be talking to the organisation about.
Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab)
While the right hon. Lady is looking at her review, will she consider what happens with the funding of sexual assault referral centres, or SARCs, in Wales? Wales SARCs are still awaiting their funding. It is important that the services they provide should be carried forward for women, children and men who have been subject to rape and other sexual offences. Will she please have a look at that issue?
Mrs May
I am certainly happy to do so. At the moment we are considering, and will soon be making an announcement on, some funding in relation to SARCs. As we look at the issues of people who have been subjected to sexual abuse, we need to consider not only the SARCs but rape crisis centres. It was a great shame that under the hon. Lady’s Government, the last Labour Government, so many rape crisis centres had to shut because of funding problems. That is why as a coalition we are committed to making money available from the victim surcharge to open new rape crisis centres.
Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)
11. What progress has been made on her Department’s review of the operation of the Extradition Act 2003 and the US-UK extradition treaty.
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
The coalition agreement committed the Government to reviewing the UK’s extradition arrangements worldwide, to ensure that they operate effectively and in the interests of justice. The review will examine both our extradition arrangements with the United States and our operation of the European arrest warrant. I will make an announcement to Parliament on the chairmanship and terms of reference of the review shortly.
Tony Baldry
My right hon. Friend will be aware that there is general concern that the provisions of the Extradition Act 2003 are lop-sided so far as they apply to the United States. Our relationship with the United States has always been based on mutual trust, and concerns about the workings of the Extradition Act are not helping to reinforce that mutual trust. Will my right hon. Friend give the House an assurance and an undertaking that once her review has been completed, if it demonstrates that the provisions and workings of the Extradition Act are lop-sided she will bring forward amending legislation to this House?
Mrs May
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his observations. I reflect, as he does, on the importance of the relationship between the United Kingdom and the United States of America, but I am also aware, obviously, of comments that have been made outside the House and inside this Chamber about the extradition treaty between the UK and the USA. That is why I think it entirely right for the coalition Government to have agreed that we will not only review that treaty but address the issue more widely and review the operation of European arrest warrants, about which hon. Members—particularly my right hon. and hon. Friends—have also expressed some concerns in this Chamber. I do not wish to prejudge the outcome of the review, but, as I said, I will be making more details of the review available to the House shortly.
Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD)
Does the Home Secretary understand that, in addition to the lop-sided nature of the legislation, there is a further issue that prejudices British citizens, namely the willingness of American courts to exercise extraterritorial jurisdiction and entertain prosecutions in circumstances where doing so would simply not be permitted in this country? Will that second issue also form part of her review?
Mrs May
Let me say to my right hon. and learned Friend that, as I have indicated, I am well aware of the range of concerns that exist in relation to the extradition treaty between the UK and the USA. That is why the coalition Government have agreed that we should have this review of the extradition treaty and take it more widely, looking at all our extradition arrangements to ensure that they operate effectively and in the interests of justice.
Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD)
I have a constituent who has already been extradited under the treaty. In following his case, I certainly agree with recent remarks by the right hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett), who concluded that perhaps the previous Government gave away too much. Whatever the outcome of the review, I hope that, on that point at least, the Home Secretary will be able to agree with both me and her predecessor.
Mrs May
My hon. Friend is tempting me down a route that I do not think is appropriate—to agree the outcome of the review in respect of its assessment of the current extradition treaty. That is not appropriate as it would undermine the whole point of having a review—details of which will be announced shortly—which is to ensure a proper process for considering the issues—
Mr Speaker
Order. I understand the natural temptation to do otherwise, but if the Home Secretary would face the House when she replies, it would help all of us. I think that she has concluded her response.
Stuart Andrew (Pudsey) (Con)
T1. If she will make a statement on her departmental responsibilities.
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
During the recess, the Home Office presented proposals to fulfil a number of key coalition commitments, including a clampdown on rogue private sector wheel-clampers and the introduction of a system of temporary bans on “legal highs”.
Stuart Andrew
Further to an answer that was given earlier, may I add my thanks to my right hon. Friend for banning the recent planned English Defence League march in Bradford? Will she join me in praising the officers of West Yorkshire police for the professional way in which they dealt with a very difficult and potentially volatile situation? What further steps will she take to tackle extremism in this country?
Mrs May
I thank my hon. Friend for his question, which does indeed relate to one that was asked earlier. I am happy to commend the actions of West Yorkshire police, and, indeed, to commend the people of Bradford on ensuring that their community cohesion was not undermined by those who wish to create division and difference in our society. As was made clear earlier by the Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice, the Government are committed to ensuring that peaceful protest can take place, but also committed to ensuring that proper action is taken when people wish protest to be a means of causing violence and division in our community.
Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)
T2. During the recess I spent a day with police on the Grangewood estate in Chesterfield, meeting people there. Grangewood has suffered tremendously from antisocial behaviour in the past. The police were certain that, when properly employed, antisocial behaviour orders were an incredibly successful and effective way of reducing the incidence of antisocial behaviour. Why do we not continue to give the police a vital tool that will help them to reduce the incidence of such behaviour in their community?
Mrs May
We do indeed intend to ensure that the police have the tools that enable them to tackle antisocial behaviour, which, sadly, occurs too often in too many places, despite the last Labour Government’s introduction of a wide range of sometimes complex initiatives. The figures show that too much antisocial behaviour takes place, and people know that too much of it takes place in their neighbourhoods. We are committed to reviewing the powers that are available to the police to ensure that they can deal with it effectively.
Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con)
T3. In Wimbledon, we have a thriving language school sector and there will be widespread support for today’s announcement that there will be action on overstayers on student visas, but can my hon. Friend assure me that the review that he undertakes will ensure that there is no discrimination against genuine applicants?
Emma Reynolds (Wolverhampton North East) (Lab)
If the Home Secretary and the Government are serious about reducing and eradicating violence against women, why is it that they have only recently decided to opt out of a new European directive to combat human trafficking?
Mrs May
We are, indeed, committed to ensuring that we take action against violence against women, and I remind the hon. Lady that the last Labour Government took 12 years to develop a strategy on that. We will produce our strategy on ending violence against women within one year of coming into office, and it will cover a wide range of subjects. In looking at European Union directives, I take a very simple approach: is signing up to a particular directive to the benefit of the United Kingdom? Happily, most of the provisions in the European directive on human trafficking are already being acted on by the United Kingdom, because we take that issue extremely seriously.
Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con)
T4. Last week, Brooke Kinsella visited the Corner House youth project in Stockton, which has been very successful in highlighting, through talks and special activities, the dangers associated with knives. Will the Minister consider implementing similar programmes in constituencies such as mine which, tragically, have only recently once again had a serious knife crime incident?
Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab)
Does localism extend as far as consulting local communities about any proposals to cut safer neighbourhood teams?
Mrs May
In relation to the police and localism, we are ensuring that there is a more direct link between local people and policing in their community through the introduction of the ability for them to elect a directly accountable police and crime commissioner whose responsibility it will be to ensure that local policing delivers what local people want. We will also ensure that, through neighbourhood meetings and crime maps, people are aware of what is going on in their community and are able to hold the police directly accountable for what is happening in it.
Michael Ellis (Northampton North) (Con)
T5. Last week on ITV a programme about community payback showed offenders on community payback smoking cannabis and not being properly supervised. How can we be sure that community payback means exactly that?
Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab)
When the Home Secretary cut the police budget for this year she included cuts to vital counter-terrorism work. Will she take the opportunity to create some common ground across the Chamber by sending out a strong message to terrorists that she will protect counter-terrorism funding in the budget for next year?
Mrs May
I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that this Government will ensure that we maintain our fight against terrorism. As he says, this is something on which views are shared across this Chamber; all Members of this House want to see us combat the threat of terrorism effectively. We will certainly do all that we can to do that.
Mr David Ward (Bradford East) (LD)
T7. Will the Secretary of State tell us what representations have been received from police and members of the youth offending teams regarding their concerns about youth offenders who do not comply with the licence conditions, in particular the community element, of detention and training orders?
Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab)
Has the Home Secretary read Saturday’s Yorkshire Post and the appeal made by the Archbishop of York, on his knees, as it were, to the Government asking them to opt in to the EU directive on sex slave trafficking. The Home Secretary is right to say that there are many measures in law in this country that deal with that, as there are in other EU member states. However, the point is that we need to send a signal to the pimps and traffickers that we are co-operating at a European level. It took three or four years to get the Council of Europe convention adopted—that was against the opposition of the Home Office in the previous Government. Do not stand on the side of the pimps and traffickers; stand with the Archbishop of York and the victims of this terrible trade.
Mrs May
Sadly, I did not read the Yorkshire Post on Saturday—I was far too busy reading the Maidenhead Advertiser—but I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that I am aware of the comments made by the Archbishop of York on this matter. I know that the right hon. Gentleman has, over a number of years, taken this issue extremely seriously and has spoken up on behalf of women who have been trafficked into the sex trade in this country. It is right to say that we need to take all the action that we can to combat that terrible, terrible trade. However, I repeat what I have said in answer to an earlier question: most of the elements of the EU human trafficking directive are being adopted already in the United Kingdom, because we all take this issue very seriously.
Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
T8. Has the Home Secretary had an opportunity to take forward the suggestion of the anti-terrorism expert, Dr Marc Sageman, that the transcripts of trials where terrorists are convicted should be published in full, in order to educate communities of the stupidity, moral poverty and criminal hatred of the people convicted in such cases?
Mrs May
I thank my hon. Friend for his question, which concerns an issue that he raised with me on the Floor of the House on 13 July. I am grateful for the letter that he sent me to follow up on that exchange, and I have passed that correspondence on to the Ministry of Justice, which is responsible for considering the publication of trial transcripts and is examining the possibility of making available more information—more transcripts—about remarks made by judges when sentencing. The Under-Secretary of State for Justice, my hon. Friend the Member for Reigate (Mr Blunt), will be in touch with my hon. Friend the Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis) on this matter shortly.
Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab)
Police community support officers have become an essential part of local communities in Nottingham and elsewhere, so what reassurance can the Minister offer on this matter to my constituents, who are worried that the cuts in policing proposed by the Government will lead to a reduction in their number?
Mrs May
Thank you, Mr Speaker. I am indeed very happy to join my hon. Friend in congratulating the Prime Minister and his wife Samantha on the safe delivery of their daughter, Florence, who as my hon. Friend said has a Cornish name as well. I am sure that the Prime Minister and his wife were very pleased to have been protected and kept safe while they were in Cornwall by the appropriate local constabulary.
Phone Tapping
Baroness May of Maidenhead Excerpts(14 years ago)
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Mr Tom Watson (West Bromwich East) (Lab) (Urgent Question)
To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if she will make a statement on the Metropolitan police investigation into phone hacking by the News of the World newspaper.
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
In December 2005, the Metropolitan police began an investigation focusing on alleged security breaches within telephone networks after concerns were raised by members of the royal household at Clarence house. That investigation resulted in the prosecution and conviction of the News of the World royal editor, Clive Goodman, in 2007 for unlawfully intercepting the phone messages of staff in the royal household. A private investigator, Glenn Mulcaire, was also convicted and jailed for intercepting the phones of a number of people.
That investigation has already been reviewed by the Metropolitan police, the Director of Public Prosecutions and the Crown Prosecution Service, who all concluded that the investigation was proper and appropriate. The Select Committee on Culture, Media and Sport also previously examined the scope and nature of the police investigation, and the previous Government updated the House on these matters in July 2009 and took no further action. Hon. Members will be aware that there have recently been allegations connected to that investigation in The New York Times.
Any police investigation is an operational matter in which Ministers have no role. I understand that the original investigation was complex and was informed by high-level legal advice. As a result of that investigation, as I have said, two individuals were successfully prosecuted. The police have made it clear that during the investigation there was early and regular consultation with the Crown Prosecution Service, so that the lines of inquiry followed were likely to produce the best evidence. The CPS had full access to all the evidence gathered, and the final indictment appropriately represented the criminality uncovered. The Metropolitan police have indicated that if there is further evidence, they will look at it. That is the right course of action, and it is right for the Government to await the outcome.
Mr Watson
Claim No. 1: there is no new evidence; there is. Claim No. 2: people were cleared by the Culture, Media and Sport Committee; they were not. Claim No. 3: a single, rogue reporter was responsible; he was not—the inquiry heard that a second News of the World reporter, Ross Hall, transcribed illegally hacked phone messages. He has not been interviewed by the police. He sent the now notorious e-mail to News of the World chief reporter Neville Thurlbeck, reporter No. 3, who has not been interviewed by the police. Last week, former News of the World reporter Sean Hoare testified that when he worked for the paper his bosses instructed him to hack into phones. He has not been interviewed by the police.
A fifth reporter, Sharon Marshall, confirmed to The New York Times that she witnessed phone hacking while working for the News of the World. As far as we know, she has not been interviewed by the police. Last week, News International confirmed that a sixth reporter has been suspended for alleged phone hacking. As far as we know, he has not been interviewed by the police.
John Yates said that he had interviewed many reporters. Well, who? How many people were on Mulcaire’s target lists? How many were notified that their name was on the lists? How many phone numbers, PINs and suspected computer passwords were on the lists? What other personal and private information was recovered? Most importantly, who decided, according to what criteria and on whose authority, which victims were investigated and which were not, and who was notified?
Can the Home Secretary confirm that former Prime Minister Tony Blair has formally asked Scotland Yard whether his phone was hacked into? The integrity of our democracy is under scrutiny around the world; the Home Secretary must not join the conspiracy to make it a laughing stock.
Mrs May
I say two things to the hon. Gentleman. First, he says that there is new evidence. As far as I can see, allegations have been made in a newspaper. The Metropolitan police have made it clear that if there is fresh evidence, they will consider it. Secondly, as Home Secretary I consider it appropriate that the Government take the view that it is for the Metropolitan police to decide what is the right course of action on an operational matter. As I said in response to the urgent question, it is appropriate for this Government to wait for the outcome.
Mr John Whittingdale (Maldon) (Con)
As the Home Secretary indicated, the Culture, Media and Sport Committee spent a considerable time examining this matter in the previous Parliament. We reported our conclusions to the House and we stand by them. We certainly found it very difficult to believe that Clive Goodman was the only member of the News of the World newsroom who was aware that phone hacking had been carried out by Glenn Mulcaire, but we found no evidence to suggest that the then editor knew of it. If there is credible new evidence, that would obviously be a matter for the police, but perhaps the Home Secretary could give an assurance that the Select Committee will be informed of the outcome of any investigation.
Mrs May
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his intervention. It is helpful of him to put before the House what happened in the Select Committee inquiry on the matter. As I have said, it is for the Metropolitan police to consider fresh evidence, if any comes forward, and I am sure that the Select Committee will be kept informed of any developments.
Alan Johnson (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) (Lab)
Mr Justice Gross said in the case of Mulcaire and Goodman that it was not about press freedom, but about a
“grave, inexcusable and illegal invasion of privacy.”
Last year, I was assured that the Metropolitan Police Service had not received any allegations in respect of other News of the World journalists. I was also told that the Metropolitan police had taken all proper steps to ensure that where there was evidence of phone tapping, or any suspicion of it, the individuals concerned would be informed.
The Home Secretary will be aware of the claims by The New York Times to have spoken to over a dozen former News of the World reporters, and to at least one of its former editors, who say that phone tapping was pervasive. Furthermore the hon. Member for Maldon (Mr Whittingdale), a very distinguished Chair of the Culture, Media and Sport Committee, said:
“There was simply no enthusiasm among Scotland Yard to go beyond the cases involving Mulcaire and Goodman. To start exposing widespread tawdry practices in that newsroom was a heavy stone that they didn’t want to try to lift.”
Does the Home Secretary agree that this stone has to be lifted, and that she must subject the actions of the Metropolitan police in this case to greater scrutiny in the light of this allegation and the new revelations from The New York Times? The original investigation, we are told, uncovered 2,978 mobile phone numbers of potential victims and 91 PIN codes. Can the right hon. Lady ascertain how many of the people concerned have now been informed?
When I was Home Secretary dealing with this case, there was nobody anywhere in Government who was implicated. Now there is. The Home Secretary and the Deputy Prime Minister have lectured the House many times about their perception of the surveillance state created by the previous Government. It appears that they may have their very own expert on the matter in charge of Government communications. Can she assure me that Andy Coulson will not be involved in any way in the Government’s response to the latest allegations? Does she agree with her right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change, who told Parliament last year that
“it is extraordinary that the Leader of the Opposition, who wants to be a Prime Minister, employs Andy Coulson who, at best, was responsible for a newspaper that was out of control and, at worst, was personally implicated in criminal activity”?
“The exact parallel”,
said the right hon. Member for Eastleigh (Chris Huhne),
“is surely with Damian McBride. If the Prime Minister was right to sack him, should not the Leader of the Opposition sack Andy Coulson?”—[Official Report, 9 July 2009; Vol. 495, c. 1132.]
I agree with those sentiments expressed by the right hon. Lady’s Cabinet colleague—does she?
Mrs May
I will take first the issue that the shadow Home Secretary raised about the number of people involved who may or may not have had telephone calls intercepted. Assistant Commissioner Yates made it clear in his interview on the “Today” programme this morning that there are—[Interruption.] Labour Members may tut, but Assistant Commissioner Yates was interviewed on the matter this morning and made it clear that there is often a misunderstanding between somebody’s name appearing on a list and that person assuming that they have therefore had their phone intercepted. He made it clear—[Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. The House must exercise a degree of self-restraint. I am trying to help the House by facilitating an exchange on this important matter. The responses of the Home Secretary must be heard.
Mrs May
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I can quote from that interview, where Assistant Commissioner Yates said:
“There’s a misunderstanding here which suggests just because your name features in a private investigator’s files, you have been hacked.”
He went on to explain that that was not the case.
The right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson) also raised the issue in relation to Mr Coulson. As my hon. Friend the Member for Maldon (Mr Whittingdale) has made clear, when the Culture, Media and Sport Committee investigated the matter, it concluded:
“We have seen no evidence that”
the then editor
“Andy Coulson, knew.”
That was the decision taken by the Select Committee of the House.
As the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle said, he looked at the issue last year. He looked at what had happened and the way it had been handled, and he said that he was reassured.
Mr Adrian Sanders (Torbay) (LD)
As a member of the Select Committee, I recall that we had evidence that hundreds of people who are the victims in the matter appeared on lists. They would like to know whether information was illegally gathered from them, and the Metropolitan police will not tell them. Secondly, they would like to know what information was illegally gathered and with whom that information was shared. Surely the only way of getting to the bottom of this is a proper judicial inquiry so that people are compelled to give evidence and they give that evidence on oath.
Mrs May
I say to my hon. Friend that the matter has been investigated by the Metropolitan police, who did so in very close co-operation with the Crown Prosecution Service and with leading counsel. The matter has also been looked at by the Select Committee of the House. The findings of that Select Committee are clear. The findings of the Metropolitan police at the time that they investigated the matter and then looked again at it last July are also clear. Two individuals were prosecuted as a result of that investigation. The Metropolitan police have made it clear that if fresh evidence is there, they will look at that fresh evidence.
Frank Dobson (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab)
Does the Home Secretary agree that, in circumstances in which Members of this House may not have their telephone communications intercepted by the police or the security service, it would be totally unacceptable for their communications to be intercepted unlawfully by newspapers? Does she accept, on the evidence of what has been said in the House this afternoon, that there has been a distinct lack of zeal on the part of the Metropolitan police in looking into these accusations?
Mrs May
Far from that, the Metropolitan police investigated these matters when they were first raised. The matter was considered again in July 2009, when the then Policing Minister, on behalf of the then Home Secretary, who was absent from the House that day, came to the House in response to an urgent question and, as a result of that, indicated that the Labour Government were taking no further action in relation to the matter.
Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that the shadow Home Secretary let the cat out of the bag by showing that this is a rather thinly veiled attempt to try to make as much political capital as possible instead of actually trying to get to the bottom of what happened? Everything that we have heard today has been thoroughly covered in the Select Committee report; there is absolutely nothing new. We took up the concerns about the Metropolitan police’s investigation at the time, when Assistant Commissioner Yates said, regarding the failure to conduct wider interviews during our Select Committee hearings:
“perhaps in 2006 it ought to have been done; I do not know, but in 2009 that is going to take us absolutely nowhere.”
Can my right hon. Friend ensure that we do not waste any more time and effort on trying to make political capital out of flogging an old horse?
Mrs May
My hon. Friend has referred to the Select Committee report’s findings on this matter, to which I and others have also referred. As for his initial observations about the reasons behind this issue, I simply say that those who are watching will see the nature of and manner in which some of the points are being raised by Labour Members of Parliament.
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
The trouble is that the police have not investigated even where there is new information and new evidence. Last summer, I wrote to the Metropolitan police and asked whether, to their knowledge, from the material that they had gained from Mr Mulcaire, I was a person of interest to him. They replied that I was, and they suggested that I ring my mobile company, which then informed me that my phone had indeed been interfered with. I told the police this months ago; they have done absolutely nothing about it.
I say in all seriousness to the Home Secretary that there may well be dozens of right hon. and hon. Members whose phones have been intercepted—several people on the Government Front Bench at the moment, as well as those on the Opposition Benches. Surely the least that she could do is write to the Metropolitan police to ask them to notify every single right hon. and hon. Member who was a subject of that investigation of the fact that they were involved, and then they can choose whether to investigate further.
Mrs May
At the time of the investigation, the Metropolitan police made it clear that those people whose phones they believed had been intercepted were contacted by members of the Metropolitan police. The hon. Gentleman has had an exchange with them on this matter. I come back to the point that I made earlier: the police have said on many occasions that if fresh evidence were to come forward they would look at it. It is not for the Government to look at that evidence; it is for the Government to await the outcome of any such investigation should that arise.
Stephen Barclay (North East Cambridgeshire) (Con)
In terms of what the Metropolitan police have and have not said, can my right hon. Friend confirm that they have now made it clear, on the record, that the press department of the Metropolitan police in no way interfered with the handling of this case?
Mrs May
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that point. Last year, when Home Secretary, the shadow Home Secretary looked at the issue and the then Government were absolutely clear that there was no need to take any further action in relation to the investigation by the Metropolitan police.
Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab)
The Home Secretary has repeatedly prayed in aid the Select Committee report in support of her decision not to take any further action. I have been a member of the Foreign Affairs Committee and have experience of how Select Committees can go only so far. When judicial reviews are then conducted, however, all sorts of evidence suddenly comes out to which Select Committees simply have no access. I urge the Home Secretary not to take comfort from the Select Committee but to make further inquiries and force the Metropolitan police at least to take some serious action rather than hiding behind procedure.
Mrs May
As I indicated earlier, such operational matters about whether to investigate particular individuals are for the police. We should jealously guard the operational independence of the police. I say to the hon. Lady, and to any other right hon. or hon. Members on the Labour Benches who think that I as Home Secretary should take it upon myself to tell members of the police force who they should or should not investigate, that that is a very slippery slope down which neither I nor this Government intend to go.
Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that the straightforward fact is that the Metropolitan police can investigate, the Crown Prosecution Service can advise that there should be a charge, and prosecuting counsel can draft an indictment only if there is supporting evidence? Does not this all turn on a simple point? If The New York Times or any individuals believe that they have new evidence, is it not simply a matter of their making that evidence available for the Metropolitan police to investigate and allowing the police to get on with their job?
Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab)
If this Government claim to be whiter than white, why did the top spinner at No. 10 Downing street learn his trade in the phone-tapping News of the World run by Murdoch? If this murky affair rumbles on, will the Prime Minister come and make a statement about relieving Coulson of his job?
Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
I am sorry that the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr Skinner) seems to have forgotten about the existence of Alastair Campbell.
Has my right hon. Friend been given any indication at all about why people have suddenly come forward now to give evidence to The New York Times, given that they did not see fit to come forward at the time to give evidence to the police?
Mrs May
I have seen no explanation of why the issue has suddenly come forward in The New York Times at this particular time. However, as I have repeated, if evidence is available, the police have made it clear that they will investigate it. I have also said in response to another hon. Member that I understand that The New York Times is making it clear that it will not be bringing forward new evidence.
Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab)
Can the Home Secretary tell the House what meetings or conversations the Mayor of London has had with the Metropolitan police in relation to this matter?
John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op)
Given the seriousness of these new allegations, many in this House and across the country will be surprised that the Home Secretary has not even shown a degree of concern about potential shortcomings in the police investigation. Is she really entirely satisfied that everything is as it should have been, or is she determined not to have a view?
Andrew Miller (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab)
Has the right hon. Lady any knowledge of how many of the 91 PIN codes involved were default numbers and how many were people’s own selected numbers? If she does have that, the issue is much more serious than has been indicated thus far. Default PINs can be obtained from the manufacturer, but others take sophisticated technology to obtain and only a very large operation could achieve that.
Mrs May
I will make the point that I made earlier. We are faced with a situation in which a number of allegations have been made in The New York Times. The Metropolitan police have made it clear that if fresh evidence is brought forward they will investigate it. As far as the Government are concerned, I believe it is appropriate for us to await the outcome.
Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)
Has the Home Secretary asked whether her name is on the list?
Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op)
Has the Home Secretary had a chance to read the report published this May by the Information Commissioner on the unlawful and widespread trade in confidential personal information, and does she agree with the Information Commissioner that there should now be a custodial sentence of up to two years in respect of the offences in question?
Mrs May
The hon. Gentleman raises an issue about sentencing, which of course is in the remit of the Secretary of State for Justice rather than the Home Department. As the hon. Gentleman will be aware, a review of sentencing is taking place, and I am sure that if he wishes to make representations to that review they will be welcomed.
Alan Keen (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op)
As a long-serving member of the Select Committee on Culture, Media and Sport, I am proud of the fact that under the previous Chair and the current respected Chair, we have worked as a team irrespective of party political views. I am delighted that I have colleagues who are taking advantage of the political aspect of this matter, but may I ask the Home Secretary to ensure that she is not tempted to go on the defensive? This issue is much more important than party politics, and it has to be tackled for the sake of our democracy. I hope that she will do that.
Mrs May
I hope that the hon. Gentleman heard the response that I gave to the question that the Chair of the Culture, Media and Sport Committee asked about its being kept informed of any developments. However, it is important that as Home Secretary I am absolutely clear about where the division of action lies between the Government—a political party—and the operational independence of the Metropolitan police or indeed any other police force in this country.
Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab)
The Home Secretary referred earlier to the comments of Assistant Commissioner Yates on the Radio 4 programme this morning. The assistant commissioner also made it clear that the police have relationships with journalists, in this case from the News of the World. Can the Home Secretary tell me who polices that relationship and how we know whether there is any self-interest in the lack of progress on this matter? I appreciate that the Government will not want to get into that, but should the Independent Police Complaints Commission be asked to examine that relationship to ensure that nothing interferes with police matters and with justice being seen to be done?
Mrs May
The hon. Lady refers to a lack of progress on this matter, but the position is absolutely clear. The use of phone interception by a journalist at the News of the World was investigated, two individuals were prosecuted as a result of that investigation and the matter was looked at again in July 2009. The Metropolitan police looked very closely at the investigation in conjunction with the Crown Prosecution Service and counsel, and in July 2009 the previous Government examined the matter and decided that no further action should be taken. As regards a lack of progress today, the police have made it absolutely clear that if fresh evidence is available, they will look at it.
Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)
As a telecommunications engineer, I have helped build such networks, so I am aware of their security gaps. That is why I am concerned that the Home Secretary does not seem to recognise the implications of the matter for everyone in the country. Such cyber-criminality could be an increasing part of all our lives, and if the police do not have the will to pursue each and every case, it is up to her to give them the tools and incentive to do so.
Mrs May
As I hoped I had made clear in response to several questions, the police have made it clear that if fresh evidence is introduced, they will look at it in relation to the case. The implicit suggestion—that somehow the police do not have the tools to examine cybercrime—is not appropriate to the matter that we are considering.
Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab)
Does the Secretary of State recall that the Mayor of London intervened in the case of the hon. Member for Ashford (Damian Green) when he received information from the Home Office? Surely, when the Secretary of State is told by an hon. Member that a phone company has told him that his phone line was compromised, but that the police had not notified him of that, she cannot be confident that the Metropolitan police have notified everybody who was subject to tapping. Surely she has a duty, on behalf of all those individuals, and for natural justice, to meet the Metropolitan police to ensure that everyone on that list is contacted and can go back and check with their phone companies.
Mrs May
The issue of contacting people who were on the list, and of whether their phones had been intercepted, was raised when the initial investigation took place and, I believe, in evidence that was given to the Select Committee and to the interviewer this morning by Assistant Commissioner Yates. The implication from several Opposition Members is that the Metropolitan police somehow failed in their duty on the matter, but they investigated the issue, people were prosecuted and they have made it clear that they will look into any further evidence that comes forward.
Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab)
Last year, an elderly BBC journalist made a statement in a magazine that he had assisted in the death of a partner some years previously. The police investigated that statement. Now, several journalists and at least one Member of the House have made new statements, yet we are told that there is no new evidence. At what point will the Watergate scandal that is encompassing British politics be investigated?