Alexei Navalny

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Thursday 28th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, first I pay tribute to the courage of the protesters in Russia standing up against corruption. Fifteen months ago, the Government’s response to the Russia report said that

“driving dirty money and money launderers out of the UK is a priority.”

It confirmed legislation to strengthen Companies House, make limited partnerships less open to money laundering and establish a register of beneficial ownership of foreign companies owning UK property. Is this still a priority, and when will we see the promised legislation? What is the timetable for broadening the scope of the Magnitsky sanctions to include corruption?

[The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, I am sure that I speak for all noble Lords when I join the noble Lord, Lord Collins, in commending the courage of what we have seen, not just in Moscow but around Russia, in support of Mr Navalny and his early and immediate release from detention. In response to the noble Lord’s question, the Russia report remains a key priority, as I said in your Lordships’ House last week. Our response was issued on the day. In addition to what the noble Lord mentioned, legislation will also enable security services and law enforcement agencies, for example, to tackle early threats of hostile activity. The National Crime Agency offences to criminalise harmful activity will be strengthened. As I said last week, we are reviewing visas in tier 1 issued before 2015. We will be working on the legislative timetable through the usual channels.

On sanctions, the noble Lord will be aware that we have already sanctioned one organisation and six individuals on the issue of the poisoning of Mr Navalny. On the issue of future designations, we will look at egregious abuses of human rights. As the noble Lord is aware, we are currently looking at corruption. We will be looking to see how we can broaden the scope of the sanctions regime in the near future.

[Baroness Northover (LD)]

My Lords, I too pay tribute to Mr Navalny and the other courageous protesters. The noble Lord rightly said that sanctions are most effective when a number of countries jointly implement them. What joint action are they taking with the EU on sanctions in this appalling case, especially given that Mr Navalny was diagnosed in Germany as having been poisoned with Novichok? Does the Minister agree that it would help such joint working with the whole of the EU if the Government recognised the EU envoy as an ambassador?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, on the noble Baroness’s second point, I believe that I have already informed the House that that is currently in discussion with the EU. On the substantive issue of sanctions, I have said that it works in tandem; we are working closely with the EU, not just on the sanctions regime and co-ordination with other allies. On the question about close working with the EU, the noble Baroness will have noted the G7 statement that just went out, which included the High Commissioner from the European Union, underlining the importance we are attaching, within the context of the G7, to the role of the European Union.

[Baroness Blackstone (Ind Lab)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree with Mr Navalny that only if we sanction what he calls “the people with the money”, not those operatives who are obeying orders, will there be any impact at all on the Russian authorities?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

I agree with the noble Baroness. That is why it is a priority for my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary to look at the issues of corruption and illicit finance in the broadening of the global human rights sanctions regime.

[Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne (Con)]

Can the Minister confirm that, while our Government rightly use sanctions as a weapon against the loss of Mr Navalny’s freedom, the many other links that our cultural heritage shares with Russia will not be harmed? I refer, of course, to our shared music, creative writing, sculpture, university links, and the many other creative ways whereby our citizens and professionals share common bonds and deep enduring friendships. Can the Minister assure the House that sanctions will avoid harming those important channels of mutual growth?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I reassure my noble friend that I agree with her. I am sure I speak for all noble Lords when I say that our challenge and dispute is not with the Russian people. We are standing on their side on their right to representation, and in the protests that we have seen in support of Mr Navalny. There are quite strict criteria for how the sanctions are applied: they are for egregious abuse of human rights.

[Viscount Waverley (CB)]

My Lords, any abuse of human rights and corruption must be condemned and be in the best interests of the Kremlin and the people of Russia. I join the noble Lord, Lord Collins, in calling for a robust debate on policy towards Russia. Will the call for sanctions be expected to bring the desired results, or is it the requisite reaction? Are there any areas of trust in which a workable relationship with the Kremlin can be hammered out with evidence that we, with like-minded partners, have the ear of decision-makers in this regard?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, on the noble Lord’s first point: wherever sanctions have been applied since we introduced them last year, we have seen that people take notice—Administrations and regimes take notice. But there is an important distinction that we, in using that sanctions regime on human rights, pinpoint individuals and organisations specifically, so it is not about standing against a country in its collective form.

On the issue of relations with Russia: of course, we continue to engage directly with Russia. As I have said before, it is a P5 member of the UN Security Council, and there are many issues around the world on security and conflict in which Russia has an important role to play.

[Lord Rooker (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I, too, salute the courage of Alexei Navalny. Nobody is questioning the Minister’s commitment to this issue, but the sanctions have not worked. Sanctioning the people with the money is not necessarily sanctioning the people who have committed the human rights offences. It is Putin’s mates in London receiving the dirty money who we need to go for. The connection to Putin is the thing that will hit them, because while that money is allowed into London in the way it is at the moment—and, outside Europe, London is the centre—Putin can act as he wishes. If we fail to do this, it will start to look like the UK Government are compromised in some way. I do not believe they are, but it will look as though they are.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

As someone who worked in the City of London for 20 years, the integrity and robustness of the structures of the City of London are of paramount importance to me, as they are to the UK Government. Therefore, I share the noble Lord’s view that it is important we take constructive steps to stop the use of illicit financing and stop money flowing through London in the manner he suggests.

[Lord Walney (Non-Afl)]

President Putin’s abhorrent disregard for international law has turned his great nation into a pariah on the global stage. I accept what the Minister said about keeping specific measures under review, but do the Government at least accept that the current suite of measures from the UK and our partners is not, thus far, proving sufficient to rein in this behaviour?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

While I note what the noble Lord has said, the steps we have taken within the context of the OPCW and with the G7 partners does, I believe, demonstrate to the Russians a strong international response. It is important we continue to strengthen our alliances in this respect so Russia does take notice and, more importantly, does so with regard to courageous individuals such as Alexei Navalny, who is being held without detention. Just to update your Lordships’ House: as I was coming in, I was informed that in his hearing, his appeal was not upheld, so he remains in detention. I will, of course, update the House as we get more details. We hope Russia will take note of these international actions, and I believe in certain quarters it is doing just that.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP) [V]]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for updating the House with that news, disappointing though it is. In preparation for this Question, I checked the 2019 Conservative election manifesto, which speaks of the UK being a champion of the rule of law, human rights and anti-corruption efforts. Does the Minister agree that we need to work consistently to have clear, consistent rules dealing with Russia, China, Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, Thailand and, indeed, the UK Overseas Territories, with Magnitsky-style sanctions and other actions, setting up plans for reaction, if and when standards are breached? I should probably declare my position on the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Hong Kong.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness poses a wide-ranging question about different countries and jurisdictions—she also mentioned the British Overseas Territories. Without generalising, it is important that we look at the specifics of each case, but I understand what she puts forward. We need to have measures to hand, and the human rights sanctions regime is one with which we can act specifically and, importantly, with key partners and allies to ensure individuals or groups who abuse human rights are held to account for their actions. I hope that, in time, as we have discussed today, the broadening of any scope of those sanctions, on the issue of illicit finance, in particular, will also be to the satisfaction of Members of your Lordships’ House.

[The Deputy Speaker (The Earl of Kinnoull) (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has now elapsed.

EU Ambassador to the UK: Diplomatic Status

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Monday 25th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Ludford]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to grant full diplomatic status under the Vienna Convention to the European Union’s ambassador to the United Kingdom.

[The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, we continue to engage with the European Union on the long-term arrangements for the EU delegation to the UK. I do not wish to pre-empt the outcome of those discussions. I assure noble Lords that we are committed to ensuring that the EU delegation, the head of delegation and staff have the privileges and immunities they need to function effectively. We want a relationship with the EU based on friendly co-operation. The EU delegation has an important role to play in this.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, this is about whether the Government are treating the new EU partnership with the seriousness it deserves, or whether they are squandering good will—indeed, being “petty”, in the words of the Conservative chair of the Defence Select Committee—at the expense of the UK’s real interests. Not only will the UK be negotiating for years to come to fill the gaps in the TCA, but any easing of the burden of Brexit red tape will require EU co-operation. Can the Minister therefore assure me that the Government are not acting in a misguided belief that they are acquiring leverage, since this will not work, and that they will grant ambassador status?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, on the noble Baroness’s last point, as I indicated in my Answer, we are in discussions with the EU. I share her view: as my right honourable friend the Prime Minister has said, we want to be the best ally and the best partner to the European Union. I assure her that those discussions are being engaged in equally forcefully on our side to ensure that the outcome is optimum for both sides.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I admire the Minister personally, but surely he can see that the Government’s initial decision not to grant full status to the EU ambassador will be seen by the rest of the international community as peevish and vindictive. This being Burns Night, I commend to the Minister Robert Burns’s invocation:

“O wad some Power the giftie gie us


To see oursels as ithers see us!

It wad frae mony a blunder free us,

An’ foolish notion”.

Taking that to mind, in the discussions due to take place will he urge his fellow Ministers to reverse this blunder and do the honourable thing?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I welcome the noble Lord’s poetic interlude and value his contribution, as ever. I assure him that the Government have not stated any public position in this regard, apart from the fact that we continue to negotiate and work with the EU on the long-term arrangements. As I said, we desire an optimum outcome that works for both sides.

[Baroness Hooper (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that the Government’s decision is gratuitously offensive, not only to the EU authorities in Brussels and the other member states, but to Portugal, our oldest ally, since the ambassador, João Vale de Almeida, is a Portuguese diplomat? Can my noble friend also give us a concrete example of what benefit this unnecessary action will bring this country?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I listened very carefully to my noble friend, as I always do. I assure her that, as I mentioned, we are engaging with the EU on the long-term arrangements for the delegation, which will be by mutual agreement. We have not yet reached that point. I therefore do not wish to pre-empt those discussions, but I reassure her once again that the EU delegation and its head will have all the privileges and immunities they need for their mission to the United Kingdom to function effectively.

[Lord Ricketts (CB) [V]]

My Lords, the UK approved the decision taken by the Council of EU Ministers in July 2010 in setting up the External Action Service that EU delegations in third countries should have

“privileges and immunities equivalent to those referred to in the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations”.

While we were a member state, 142 countries around the world granted this status to EU delegations so that they could do their work effectively. The nature of the EU has not changed. Why is there even an issue to be negotiated with the EU about its status in the UK?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, it is not for me to answer about what other countries offer the EU in terms of privileges and immunities. I can confirm that the EU delegation has the necessary privileges and immunities to enable it to carry out its work in the UK effectively. As I said—noble Lords will acknowledge that this is one of those occasions where I am, in general, repeating the key message I seek to deliver—we are currently live in negotiations with the European Union on this very issue. In no manner should I pre-empt the outcomes of those important discussions.

[Baroness Northover (LD)]

My Lords, I detect an imminent U-turn. As the Minister knows, the UK has worked very closely with EU ambassadors in many countries to make sure that approaches are agreed and pressure is as effective as possible. Will the UK no longer recognise them as ambassadors, further weakening the UK’s ability to muster support for common approaches on issues, including human rights, an area for which he has personal responsibility?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I assure the noble Baroness that we will continue to work with EU representatives across the world, as well as the EU directly, on important priorities and our shared values, including human rights.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Lord is quite keen to suggest that the difference between the status of nation state embassies and that of international organisations is minor, so can he explain why we are going through this process, which will waste not only the energy of his department but good will by insisting on the latter?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, when the noble Lord rises to speak I often look to his expression. On this occasion it was one of deep concern, accompanied by a frown. I assure him that I hear very clearly what he says. Of course a range of international organisations enjoy privileges and immunities in the United Kingdom, including those for their heads of mission. Because we are where we are with the European Union there is little more I can say at this juncture about the outcome of the discussions, but I assure him and others that we will continue to work with the EU as a key and important partner, and be the best friend and ally to the EU, as my right honourable friend the Prime Minister has said on a number of occasions.

[The Earl of Kinnoull (Non-Afl) [V]]

My Lords, the very first article of the trade and co-operation agreement talks of

“good neighbourliness characterised by close and peaceful relations based on cooperation, respectful of the Parties’ autonomy and sovereignty.”

Could the Minister explain how the Government’s current fence-top position is consistent with this core aspiration of our new and important relationship with the EU?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

I agree with the premise and context of the noble Earl’s question, but I assure him that we are currently in discussions for the very reasons he has articulated. The EU is an important partner to the United Kingdom. At the end of the transition period, our intention is to be the best ally and friend to the EU. We will work in that respect, whether on its status here in the UK or on other key issues. As I said to the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, it will remain an important partner in all respects.

[Lord King of Bridgwater (Con) [V]]

My noble friend has said that he does not wish to pre-empt the negotiations, but I think it will be clear to him from the exchanges so far that not one Member of your Lordships’ House who has spoken so far is not very surprised to find that the status of an ambassador is part of the negotiations. I appreciate the difficult position that my noble friend is in, but may I suggest that this be sorted out as quickly as possible, so that we can live up to the intention of being the best friend and ally?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

As ever, I have listened to my noble friend very carefully and I take note of what he said.

[Lord Jay of Ewelme (CB) [V]]

Does not the Minister agree that it is time now to put aside gesture politics and to focus instead on developing the relations necessary to make a success of, for example, the G7 summit in Cornwall and the climate change summit in Scotland? In both of those, the European Commission will, whether we like it or not, have a major and important role to play.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

Let me assure the noble Lord, who speaks with great insight and experience, that we are doing exactly that. We want to focus on the G7 summit and on the other important priorities that lie in front of us, including dealing with the Covid-19 pandemic and the rollout of the vaccines, and, equally importantly, our planning for the COP 26 in November in Glasgow.

[Lord Liddle (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I have the greatest respect for the Minister, but does he understand that he is completely failing to convince the House of the need for any discussions about the status of the EU ambassador in Britain? Should he not be communicating this to the Foreign Secretary—who, although we have been urged many times by the Front Bench to move on from the Brexit debates and arguments, seems incapable of doing so in his search for cheap points that will go down well with his Brexiteer Back-Benchers?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I work closely with my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary, and, as I said in response to an earlier question, of course I will feed back the sentiments of your Lordships’ House. However, I can speak for my right honourable friend. Over the past year or so I have seen the importance he attaches to our colleagues across the EU and the close working partnerships and friendships he has formed, so I disagree with the noble Lord in both the final element and the premise of his question: that is not the case. We work very closely with the EU collectively, but also with key partners within the EU, most notably Germany and France. My right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary has an important role in leading on those relationships.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

May I belatedly—I understand that he has been here for some months—welcome the EU ambassador to the United Kingdom, as I welcome the ambassadors of every EU member state? Obviously, though, there is now scope for duplication, because no one will be quite clear where the lines are delineated between the EU ambassador and the ambassadors of the nation states. Can my noble friend tell me which member states have approached the Foreign Office and said that they wish to reduce their representation in the United Kingdom because of the arrival of the EU ambassador?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, the EU’s representation and that of EU member states is very much a matter for the European Union and those member states.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I follow on from the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Robathan. We have talked about the importance of sovereign equality in our relations with the European Union, so do we intend to accept that our representation in Brussels should be reduced both in status and in size? As a point of comparison, the United States regards its representation in Brussels as one of its most important; it is also one of its largest. Do we not think that ours should be similar?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord. I am sure that he will recognise, from his time as a Minister at what was the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, the appointment of the new ambassador to the Permanent Mission at the European Union, who is a very capable official and acts at a very senior level. Indeed, he was centrally involved in the discussions on the new agreement that we have reached with our European Union friends.

[Lord Kilclooney (CB)]

My Lords, is the European Union a state? And is there any non-state organisation that has an ambassador in the United Kingdom? Does the Commonwealth Secretariat, for example, have an ambassador in London? Finally, can a state be represented by two ambassadors? In other words, if the European Union has an ambassador, do all 27 members of the European Union have to withdraw their ambassadors?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I believe that the noble Lord has answered his own question, but, for the record, of course the Commonwealth does not have an ambassador. The Secretary-General is present here and the Commonwealth as an international organisation has a presence, but not in the manner of having an ambassador. Nor does any other international organisation have an ambassador to the United Kingdom. However, I stress that decisions about the EU and its representative voice, whether in the UK or elsewhere, are for the European Union—and of course, through various elements of the multilateral sphere, member states are represented, as is the European Union itself.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Henig) (Lab)]

My Lords, all supplementary questions have been asked.

Prohibition of Nuclear Weapons

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Thursday 21st January 2021 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Bishop of Coventry]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the United Nations Treaty on the Prohibition of Nuclear Weapons.

[The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government have been clear that they will not sign the Treaty on the Prohibition of Nuclear Weapons. We do not believe that this treaty will bring us closer to a world without such weapons. The Government believe that the best way to achieve our collective goal of a world without nuclear weapons is through gradual multilateral disarmament, negotiated using a step-by-step approach. We must take account of the international security environment and work under the framework of the nuclear non-proliferation treaty.

[The Lord Bishop of Coventry [V]]

I thank the Minister for his reply. Nevertheless, as of tomorrow the TPNW will be no less a reality for the UK than for countries that support it. It will be no less a reality for states that possess nuclear weapons than for those that do not. The UN Secretary-General has described this new treaty as

“a further pillar of the disarmament regime”

and therefore fully compatible with the NPT. I ask the Minister, since the new treaty and its underlying humanitarian motivations will loom large over any future discussion of our non-proliferation responsibilities, what preparations are being made by the Government to engage with it constructively? Will they commit to attend, as an observer state, the first meeting of states party to the treaty, as Sweden and Switzerland are doing?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I hear what the right reverend Prelate says but, to be clear, the United Kingdom will not support, sign or ratify the TPNW. The reasons are very clear to us: it fails to offer a realistic path to global nuclear disarmament and, importantly, risks undermining the effective non-proliferation and disarmament architecture that we already have in place, in particular the work that has already been achieved with key partners on the NPT.

[Baroness Blower (Lab) [V]]

I declare my interest as in the register. I am compelled to repeat the question from the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Coventry. Given the global importance of this treaty, will the Government consider sending in an observer capacity a delegation when the treaty parties convene later this year, whether in person or virtually? Clearly, in observer status the Government might learn something of interest.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I assure the noble Baroness that we are fully aware of the challenges that currently confront us on the global stage and the importance of ensuring that we see non-proliferation. There are major challenges with this treaty, including the fact that it does not look at the existing security architecture, including our obligations to NATO. It does not look at how we deal with the threats from nations such as the DPRK. My Answer was very clear about what our belief is on the treaty. If parties to that treaty engage with us bilaterally, of course, we will continue to engage with them on wide range of matters.

[Lord Walney (Non-Afl)]

The Minister is being characteristically courteous but does he not agree that every Member of this House, not least the right reverend Prelate, has a responsibility not to deceive themselves that this treaty could be an effective mechanism for achieving our shared goal of the elimination of nuclear weapons? Indeed, suggesting that it is undermines that very goal.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I have to disagree with the noble Lord. I accept that the treaty the right reverend Prelate talks about has noble intent but there are existing mechanisms, treaties and obligations that have ensured the decline in the proliferation of nuclear weapons. Indeed, with the treaties that we are part of and the partnerships that we have forged, since the end of the Cold War we have seen a 50% reduction in our own arsenal. While respecting the right reverend Prelate—and, of course, all noble Lords in this House—on this occasion I do not hold the same view.

[Lord Bates (Con)]

I welcome my noble friend’s confirmation that it has never been the policy of Her Majesty’s Government to have the indefinite retention of nuclear weapons but to seek a world free from all nuclear weapons. This is stated in the national security strategy, set out in pillar 2 of the non-proliferation treaty and stated in the first resolution of the UN General Assembly, held 75 years ago this weekend across the road in the Methodist Central Hall. How could my noble friend use this anniversary to advance our declared ambition of the complete elimination of all these weapons of mass destruction before it is too late?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I assure my noble friend, who speaks with a great deal of insight and expertise in this area, that we remain very much committed. Our commitment to our obligations and our adherence to the rules-based system of international law and the treaties that we are part of will ensure the very objective he seeks and I seek as well.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD) [V]]

My Lords, one of the key aspects of non-proliferation in recent years has been the JCPOA. The UK has been involved in this but under President Trump the US pulled out. What are her Majesty’s Government doing about talking to President Biden about re-engaging in the JCPOA?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, we look forward to fruitful discussions with the United States on a range of issues and look forward to working with it on this important priority as well.

[Lord Polak (Con)]

Following on from that question, only this week Her Majesty’s Government stated as part of the E3 that they are deeply concerned by Iran’s announcement that is producing uranium metal. There is no credible civilian use for uranium. Will my noble friend the Minister take the earliest opportunity to discuss with his new counterpart in the Biden Administration how to strengthen any deals with Iran to ensure the disbanding of its nuclear programme in its entirety and, at the same time, stop its destabilising behaviour in the region?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

I assure my noble friend that on both his points we will be engaging constructively with the United States and other allies in this respect.

[Baroness Deech (CB) [V]]

My Lords, Iran has incrementally violated the JCPOA. It would be delusional to return to it and to drop sanctions. Iran has achieved uranium enrichment levels of 20%. What are the Government doing to ensure that Iran halts this dangerous escalation?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I assure the noble Baroness that Iran’s continued non-compliance with its nuclear commitments is deeply concerning and seriously undermines the non-proliferation benefits of the agreement. Iran faces a stark choice—to continue on its current path and face growing isolation or to come back to the negotiating table. We hope it will choose the latter course.

[Lord Judd (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that any advance that has been made in any of the conventions on nuclear weapons so far has been achieved in the context of firm undertaking by nuclear powers, including us, to steadily reduce the number of nuclear weapons at their disposal? There seems to be quite a lot of room for doubt about the commitment of some nuclear powers at the moment. Is it not a priority for the British Government to get together with the new Administration in the United States, and indeed with the French, to discuss how we should be carrying the new situation forward?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I assure the noble Lord that we will continue to engage with the US and with the P5 process. As he will be aware, we led on that last year. We will work very constructively with the French, who lead on the P5 this year.

[Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer (LD) [V]]

My Lords, for the purposes of investment, this treaty puts nuclear weapons clearly in the category of controversial weapons. Does the Minister agree that investment in such weapons by responsible and ethical pension funds and other investors will quickly become completely unacceptable?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, the nuclear industry and its wider energy benefits are also part of the debate. We remain very committed to a minimum but credible independent nuclear deterrent.

[Lord Ramsbotham (CB) [V]]

My Lords, are the Government aware of the European Leadership Network’s call for a sustained, open-ended and regular panel on strategic nuclear risk reduction?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, if I may, I will respond to the noble Lord in writing once I understand the full context of his question. However, as I have already articulated, we are working with key P5 partners—including the key European partner in this respect, the French.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Lexden) (Con)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has now elapsed. We come to the fourth Oral Question.

Alexei Navalny

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Thursday 21st January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what representations they have made to the Government of Russia about the arrest of Alexei Navalny.

[The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, I begin by extending my best wishes and those of your Lordships’ House for health and happiness to the noble Lord, who I understand is 79 years young today.

It is appalling that Alexei Navalny has been detained on arbitrary charges. We raise his case regularly and directly with the Russian Government. On 15 January, immediately prior to his return, the United Kingdom’s ambassador to Moscow raised our concerns with the Russian foreign ministry. My colleague, Minister Morton, who is responsible for our relations, also raised this issue with her Russian counterpart in November 2020. As the noble Lord will know, the Foreign Secretary issued a statement on 18 January calling for Mr Navalny’s immediate and unconditional release.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op) [V]]

First, I thank the Minister for his very kind words. Returning to the subject, does he not agree that Alexei Navalny has shown tremendous bravery by returning to Russia after the assassination attempt? Will the Minister agree that the Government might show support for his release, backing it up by increasing sanctions against the Putin-supporting oligarchs based in London in relation to their investments, property purchases and travel to the United Kingdom? That would show some real support in trying to get Alexei Navalny out of prison.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I assure the noble Lord that I agree with his sentiments, and I look forward to working with him in this respect. Of course, we keep further sanctions under review but, as he will know, following the poisoning of Alexei Navalny last year, we issued proscriptions against six individuals and the State Scientific-Research Institute of Organic Chemistry and Technology.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, Mr Putin constantly challenges the global risk-based order and his behaviour is erratic, whether it is attempts to kill political opponents, such as Navalny, a WMD attack on our nation’s soil, a stream of outrageous damaging global cyberattacks, provoking flights into our airspace, a build-up of nuclear submarines threatening our deterrent, or actions in Ukraine, et cetera. It is difficult to know what he hopes to achieve, but it is certain that there is an increasing risk of miscalculation, which is highly dangerous and could lead to hostilities. Is the Minister concerned about this risk, and should there not be urgent action to rejuvenate arms control agreements, military-to-military dialogue and confidence-building measures, such as New START and the open skies agreement?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord speaks with great expertise and insight; I agree with the thrust of what he proposes and the specifics that he mentioned. We want to work with Russia and other partners on the very objectives that he has outlined, but the detention of the main opposition leader demonstrates a continuing decrease in democracy and human rights in Russia, and we will continue to hold it accountable for that.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD) [V]]

My Lords,

“Confident political leaders do not fear competing voices, nor”


see the need,

“to commit violence against or wrongfully detain political opponents.”

Those are not my words but those of Mr Mike Pompeo, the outgoing United States Secretary of State, with whom I rarely agree. Does the Minister agree?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I do agree with former Secretary of State Pompeo’s words. That is why we work very closely with the United States in dealing with the issues and challenges that Russia brings to the world.

[Baroness Helic (Con) [V]]

Alexei Navalny’s latest investigation into what he has called the world’s “biggest bribe”—Putin’s sprawling palace at the Black Sea—is a reminder that corruption is endemic in autocracy and that tackling it undermines the rule of strong men such as Putin. With that in mind, will the Government continue to encourage greater transparency over Russian financial activities around the world, including in the United Kingdom, and take steps to combat money laundering? Can my noble friend the Minister update us on the progress that has been made on this since the Intelligence and Security Committee published its report last year?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I apologise: some of my noble friend’s questions were not quite clear. However, I believe that she referred to the ISC report on Russia. As she will know, the Government’s response was published immediately after its release. Russia is a top national security priority for the Government, and we will introduce new legislation concerning the security services and law enforcement. As she will be aware, the Government are currently looking at how our sanctions regime can be further extended to deal with corruption and illicit financing.

[Baroness Meacher (CB) [V]]

My Lords, having worked in a Russian ministry in Moscow for three years in the early 1990s, I am hugely aware of the impact on the Russian people of the appalling treatment of the extraordinarily brave Mr Navalny. How on earth he brings himself to go back to Russia, I do not understand. Will the Government support a statement from our Parliament to the Russian Parliament expressing our strong support for the fundamental rights of Mr Navalny and the Russian people to free speech and freedom of assembly?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, on the principle that the noble Baroness raises, it is absolutely for Parliament to decide on issuing such statements. However, she will have seen the strong statement that we issued with partners on this very issue.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister said that the Government were keeping matters under review. Returning to the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Helic, it is now 15 months since the publication of the Russia report and the Government have yet to implement even one of the 21 recommendations. There are enormous concerns that the City of London is still acting as a haven for dark money connected to human rights abuses in Russia. What steps will the Government take to ensure that UK businesses are not complicit in human rights violations in Russia?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I believe that I have already addressed, in part, the issues of human rights and sanctions, and of course I will be talking to the noble Lord as we bring forward some of the broader sanction applications. On the report, we have acted. I have already alluded to legislation, and we continue to step up our activity, both domestically and internationally, to tackle illicit finance. The National Crime Agency has increased the number of investigations into corrupt leads and, among other things, the UK has used existing immigration powers in dozens of cases relating to hostile state activity. We will also review all tier 1 investor visas granted before 5 April 2015.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD) [V]]

My Lords, we all recognise that the UK, as a democracy, is far more open to Russian influence than Russia is to British. Does the Minister agree that Russian interference, including finance in British politics, is at least as severe a threat to UK sovereignty as the European Court of Justice? Does he accept that the Government’s response to the ISC report is widely considered to have been “defensive and uninformative”? Can the Government assure us that they are working actively to tighten the law on foreign agents in British politics, on financial contributions from abroad to political parties and on espionage?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I can give the noble Lord that assurance. On the question of interference in elections, he will be aware that various legal matters are already under way, so I cannot speak specifically to those. On the other matters that he raised, I have already said that we are acting, and will be responding, and have already taken steps, as our response to the ISC report has demonstrated.

[Lord Balfe (Con)]

My Lords, Russia, at its own request, rejoined the Council of Europe a few months ago but does not seem to have grasped the fundamental values of that council. Sanctions are really water off the duck’s back. The noble Lord, Lord Collins, came a lot nearer to the truth as to what we need to do if we are going to have an effective impact. Does the Minister agree that we need to join Berlin and Paris in encouraging Russia to follow the principles inherent in democratic societies and the underlying principles of the Council of Europe, which it was so keen to rejoin?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, in the interest of time, I totally agree with my noble friend, and we will work closely with Germany and France in that respect.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl) [V]]

My Lords, the Russian Federation has failed to respond to the overwhelming evidence that it poisoned the opposition leader using Novichok, for which of course it has previous form. Addressing the EU last year, Alexei Navalny said that sanctions should target the money of the oligarchs who hold Putin’s assets. This lack of adherence to a rules-based international order has gone on for too long. Does the Minister agree now that there should be direct consequences, as suggested by Mr Navalny, for this outrageous breach of all the norms of civilised states, all of which is compounded by the subsequent arrest and jailing of Mr Navalny on his return to his own country?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, suffice to say that I agree with the noble Lord. I add that we have already taken quite specific actions, both through multilateral organisations such as the OPCW and specifically on issues of sanctions related directly to the Novichok poisoning of Mr Navalny. We will continue to work with partners and see what further steps we can take. As those come to bear, I will of course share them with your Lordships’ House.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Lexden) (Con)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has now elapsed.

Overseas Development Aid: Covid-19 Vaccination

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Thursday 21st January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sarfraz]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to ensure that access to Covid-19 vaccination is available as part of their overseas development aid work to vulnerable people in less economically developed countries.

[The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, the United Kingdom has committed £548 million to the COVAX Advance Market Commitment, the AMC, which is the international initiative to support global equitable access to vaccines. Through match funding the commitment was leveraged to encourage other donors to commit $1 billion in 2020. The commitment will support access to Covid-19 vaccines for up to 92 developing countries by contributing to the supply of 1 billion doses, with deliveries set to begin in the first quarter of 2021.

[Lord Sarfraz (Con) [V]]

My Lords, while the United Kingdom has been a strong supporter of the COVAX Facility, the director-general of the WHO has raised fresh concerns about developing countries being left behind. Will Her Majesty’s Government consider approaches to supplement COVAX using our own economic development institutions? For example, could we make UK export finance easily available to countries importing the Oxford vaccine, and could we encourage the CDC to urgently support local vaccine supply chains?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My noble friend makes two very practical points, especially that on the CDC. I will certainly look at what we can do. To be absolutely clear, we remain committed to the COVAX Facility. We want to provide clarity to all that we will continue to support that facility, which we believe has the infrastructure to ensure the best, most equitable and fastest distribution to the most vulnerable around the world. However, my noble friend makes some practical points and I will certainly explore those further.

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean (Lab) [V]]

Does the Minister agree that, while priority must be given to vaccinating as many people in the United Kingdom as possible, it is also vital to help protect less developed countries, which may develop other strains of Covid-19 as we have already witnessed? Can the Minister assure the House that the UK Government will not seek any payment for vaccinations or equipment from those countries? Will the Government support them to develop and deploy the skills and expertise that have been developed by our own dedicated scientists and doctors in this country?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

I assure the noble Baroness that, as vaccine distribution picks up pace and other vaccines come online, we remain committed to the COVAX Facility. The noble Baroness puts forward some practical points about British expertise and how this can be further leveraged in terms of support. Regarding specific charges that may be levied, let me assure her that the whole basis of the AMC within the COVAX Facility is to ensure that the most vulnerable are not prohibited from or limited in their access to the vaccine because of a lack of money.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD) [V]]

My Lords, last week Dr Anthony Fauci from the US National Institutes of Health endorsed the WHO’s Covid-19 Technology Access Pool, the C-TAP. This is a key mechanism to support efforts to scale up the manufacture of vaccines for all. We are currently not supporting it. Considering the urgent need to respond to new variants of the virus, will the UK Government follow Dr Fauci’s lead?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I understand from reports coming from the United States that Dr Fauci’s expertise will be fully leveraged within the World Health Organization, as he will be leading the United States delegation now that the US has rejoined the World Health Organization, which we welcome. As details of the Covid-19 Technology Access Pool emerge from the WHO, our Government are committed to assessing how it could add value to existing innovation and access infrastructure such as the Medicines Patent Pool, which we helped to set up 10 years ago. We are looking at it very carefully. We will work closely with the United States and, importantly, the World Health Organization in this respect.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Faulkner of Worcester) (Lab)]

Baroness Manningham-Buller. No? I call the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury.

[The Archbishop of Canterbury [V]]

My Lords, we must welcome warmly the exceptional moral leadership in this remarkable donation to the COVAX programme, which I think is the largest of any country. However, in order to make the money work, and to follow up what the British ambassador, Julian Braithwaite, said at the WHO, we need a global vaccination campaign if we are to overcome this global pandemic. There are three particular obstructions to overcome. One relates to the use of surplus supplies of vaccine; for example, Canada has ordered more than five times what it needs for its population. The second is misinformation, mythical dangers or false stories being deliberately spread about the vaccines. Thirdly, in many parts of the countries that will need the vaccine, there are immense logistical difficulties in distributing it. To make the most of the financial leadership we have set and given our expertise, experience and success in the rollout in this country, what will the Government do to validate that gift by overcoming these three challenges?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, the most reverend Primate makes some very pertinent and important points. On the issue of countries which have oversubscribed, some countries have already announced plans for that. We are not in that position, but others have announced how they will look at distribution. We would implore them to consider that the most equitable way to support that distribution is through the COVAX Facility and the AMC, for the very reasons that have been put forward; namely, that they have the most effective infrastructure and networks to allow for equitable and fast distribution of the vaccine as it is rolled out.

I take fully the most reverend Primate’s point on misinformation. At a time when people are concerned and worried, it is highly regrettable that some in the world are putting out misinformation on vaccines which have already gone through all stages of testing and have been approved. We must come together to tackle that and provide proper information.

The most reverend Primate’s point on logistics was well made. As vaccine distribution continues, we will work through our networks within the FCDO and the UN to further strengthen NGOs; for example, with training and by ensuring that front-line healthcare workers in the field in developing parts of the world are vaccinated first.

[Baroness Chalker of Wallasey (Con) [V]]

I thank my noble friend for the assurances he has given the House about his department. Will he ensure that every effort is made to focus medical help to Africa on preventive vaccines, but not only against Covid-19? Can use be made of the Virtual Doctors organisation, which can assist in setting up a preventive system in African countries?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I can give my noble friend that assurance. My right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary is currently on a visit to Africa, where issues concerning Covid-19 and the vaccine will be addressed directly, as they will be by the Minister for Africa. In her latter point, my noble friend also makes a practical suggestion about distribution. As more vaccines become readily available and distribution evolves, we will take this forward as part of our planning and share it with other partners as well.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, the great news from Washington this morning is that the US is joining the COVAX facility. I hope this will lead to many more opportunities. Last Friday, I met representatives of the Africa CDC who have more recent experience and expertise in conducting mass public vaccination programmes than do we in the UK. What discussions has the Minister’s department had with organisations in the global south, so that we can learn from them? They also highlighted the secondary economic impacts through healthcare and gender inequality. What preparations is the FCDO making to prevent there being a development mountain to climb after the pandemic subsides?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, on the noble Lord’s second question, he will appreciate that at the Gavi summit we saw a real commitment by the world community, led by the United Kingdom, not just to deal with the global pandemic but to ensure that the other challenges we face—particularly on vaccine distribution, including against polio and cholera—are not forgotten. These remain live challenges in many parts of the world. That underlines our commitment to ensuring that such challenges remain very much on the priority radar. Covid-19 vaccines and their distribution are our primary focus. I agree that we should be looking at the experience of all our partners. There are NGOs working throughout Africa that have real experience of dealing with the Ebola outbreak. We should learn from that. I have spoken to leading scientists in Pakistan who are still dealing with polio, both there and in Afghanistan. They were able to deploy quickly certain measures to deal with Covid-19 when it happened. This is a learning curve, and we must work together to ensure optimum outcomes not just for one country, but for us all.

[Baroness Brinton (LD) [V]]

The UK is rightly proud of the leadership of many Governments over many years in Gavi. It was alarming to hear on the “Today” programme yesterday that only 25 vaccine injections had been delivered into arms so far in developing countries. Can the Minister reassure the House that the UK’s extra orders for the Pfizer and AZ vaccines have not caused any delays in the urgent rollout of the Gavi orders?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

I, too, heard that announcement. As Minister for South Asia, I know that there are large parts of India, for example, where the population is highly vulnerable and suffers extreme poverty. The Indian authorities are part of the rollout. I have also heard that the vaccine is now being delivered to Bangladesh. The Government are stressing to all our partners that support for the COVAX facility, particularly the AMC, is a key part of ensuring equitable distribution for all.

[Lord Bird (CB)]

My Lords, I congratulate the Government on their vaccination record. I am about to have mine, so I thank them. The Big Issue works with people on the streets all over the world—and here I declare an interest. Vaccinating street dwellers against Covid is very important, but they also need nutrition and support beyond that. Can the Minister’s department indicate whether anything might be added to the Covid vaccine that could keep these people healthy?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I pay tribute to the work of the noble Lord, helping people not just in the United Kingdom but across the world. I listened carefully to what the noble Lord said and look forward to practical suggestions from him for how we can further strengthen our work in this area. I can assure him that we are looking particularly at famine and nutrition in fragile states. This is very much part of the development elements with which the FCDO is engaged.

[Baroness Sugg (Con)]

My Lords, given the devastating impact of Covid-19 on low and middle-income countries, the need and the demand for overseas development assistance has never been greater. This is one of many reasons why the cut to the 0.7% is so regrettable. Can the Minister reassure me that spending on health infrastructure and on, for example, data systems, cold chain storage and the training of healthcare workers will be protected from the aid cuts? It is crucial in the fight against this and future pandemics around the world.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, answering my noble friend presents me with a bit of a challenge because, not so long ago, she was leading on this area, but I hope I can provide her with practical information in every sense. I look forward to working with her further on the prioritisations within ODA. My noble friend knows better than most the challenges that this has presented. I can assure her that global health remains a top priority for the United Kingdom. We are focused on overcoming Covid-19, as well as on supporting more resilient and healthier populations in developing countries. I currently have wider responsibilities within the FCDO. We are looking specifically at country plans to ensure that the most vulnerable are protected and that other issues such as those raised by the noble Lord, Lord Bird, on famine, do not present additional problems as we challenge the pandemic. We will ensure that the principles close to my noble friend’s heart continue to guide our work within the FCDO.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Faulkner of Worcester) (Lab)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Private Notice Question has elapsed. I apologise to noble Lords whom it has not been possible to call.

Xinjiang: Forced Labour

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Tuesday 19th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Northover (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I too thank the noble Lord for bringing us this Statement. The Foreign Secretary describes an appalling situation, with which we have become familiar. It is vital that our businesses do not benefit from slave labour in Xinjiang or anywhere else. The possibility of genocide must always be at the forefront of our minds, not least as we come up to Holocaust Memorial Day.

The Commons is indeed currently considering the amendments to the Trade Bill that we sent there. Ministers have been saying that Parliament, not the courts, should decide on genocide in relation to trade agreements. The noble Lord usually says international courts should decide on genocide, but he also admits that this is impossible when it comes to China. Yesterday, in relation to Nagorno-Karabakh, he said that

“it is a long-standing government policy that genocide is a matter for judicial decision rather than for Governments or non-judicial bodies.”—[Official Report, 18/1/21; col. 991.]

That seems in line with the amendment in the Commons. He said, “judicial decision”, not “international judicial decision” or “Parliament”: could he comment?

The Chinese Communist Party has described the forced sterilisation of Uighur women as “emancipation”. The UN convention on genocide clearly forbids this. The noble Lord will know that under the convention, when a state learns, or should have learned, of the serious risk of genocide, it must take action. Is his department making an assessment in relation to the Uighurs, and will he publish its conclusions? Given that China blocks routes to international courts, does he agree that the United Kingdom has a responsibility to find alternative routes to make the legal determination?

The second area I want to ask about, as the noble Lord, Lord Collins did, is the Magnitsky sanctions. The Government always say they keep these under review. The Minister will no doubt say that today, yet the US applies such sanctions in relation to China. Why do we not? The Foreign Secretary noted last week:

“Of course, many countries are nervous in their dealings with China because of its asymmetric economic clout.”—[Official Report, Commons, 12/1/21; col. 173.]


That is indeed so. The noble Lord rightly says that sanctions are most effective when undertaken jointly with others. There are three major economic blocs in the world: the United States, China and the EU. We now have to work that much harder to gain traction among European allies, not just France and Germany, so what progress are the Government making here?

The last area that I want to ask the noble Lord about is in relation to company law. I worked on the Companies Act 2006. We included supply chains. Can the noble Lord explain why neither the Companies Act nor the Modern Slavery Act have proved sufficient here? Clearly, reputation is vital. I noted how quickly companies acted after the Rana Plaza disaster when they realised that their reputations were at stake. What about public procurement? Can we be sure that the PPE that we so anxiously sought during the pandemic did not come from Xinjiang? There were reports of some of it originating in North Korea. Who will monitor and act on the proposed new measures? Which Minister in which department? Will legislation be brought forward as indicated—and, if so, when—to close the loopholes that the Government clearly identify exist in the Companies Act and the Modern Slavery Act?

The European Union, as the noble Lord, Lord Collins, noted, intends to introduce legislation on due diligence, which will be mandatory. Are we working with it so that our standards are at least equivalent? Will this issue be considered at the G7 or D10, or however it is defined, in June? I look forward to hearing the noble Lord’s response and also to the questions and answers from noble Lords who have so much experience in this area.

[The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Collins, and the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, for their welcome of the provisions that have been announced. I also reassure them that, as they will have seen, earlier today I was engaging with one of the key NGOs that I speak to on a regular basis on issues of human rights, with a specific focus on Xinjiang.

It is worth just taking a step back. I pay tribute to many in your Lordships’ House and in the other place, as well as other advocates around the world, in seeing where we have got to on this important issue, even over the last three years. There was a time where the issue of Xinjiang and the situation of the Uighurs was not often debated. However, because of the advocacy from across your Lordships’ House and in the other place, there is a real strength and a real momentum behind the actions we have seen in international action, with the United Kingdom working with key partners. We have also had rich debates on various Bills, as well as more generally as we are doing today on specific matters relating to the situation in Xinjiang. I pay tribute to all noble Lords and Members in the other place for their continued not just interest but strong advocacy, for that is what is required.

Picking up on some of the specific questions, first, on the issues raised by the noble Lord, Lord Collins, on guidance and working with businesses, from my own experience of the private sector over 20 years I think that the approach of successive Governments, because of the nature of the environment we work in, has always been to work with business and to offer guidance and structure so businesses can act. This new robust and detailed guidance to UK business sets out quite specific risks faced by companies with links to Xinjiang, underlining the challenges of effective due diligence—a point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, as well. There will be a Minister-led campaign of business engagement—which was a point the noble Lord, Lord Collins, again raised—led by my right honourable friend the Home Secretary with an organised forum called the Business Against Slavery Forum made up of businesses, which I understand my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary will also attend.

The noble Lord, Lord Collins, also raised sanctions and further designations, as did the noble Baroness, Lady Northover. I have to be consistent with what I said before: we keep the situation under review, across the world, because it is important in the new regime introduced by this Government that we continue to monitor abuses of human rights. I assure noble Lords that we will continue to act.

Answering a point that the noble Baroness raised about acting with key partners, we have carefully noted the action taken by the United States. We worked closely with the European Union during the transition period and, as we have come to the end of that, we will build a new engagement and relationship. As my right honourable friend the Prime Minister said, we want to be the closest ally and friend to the European Union, and we will work together on our shared values agenda.

As I have said—and I stand by this, as it is important for sanctions policy—there is sometimes no necessity for institutional frameworks, as we have seen and demonstrated in our relationships with Australia, Canada and the US. But it is important for relationships to be strengthened further. We will continue to work with all our allies, including the European Union, as we bring forward sanctions, across the world, to ensure that those who abuse human rights are held to account and suffer as a consequence.

The noble Lord, Lord Collins, talked of new legislation and confirmation through the affirmative procedure for some of the changes proposed to the Modern Slavery Act. My right honourable friend the Home Secretary will shortly bring forward details of those changes; these will be discussed through the usual channels. They will include further intent to impose financial penalties on businesses that do not comply with their transparency obligations in this respect.

The noble Baroness, Lady Northover, and the noble Lord, Lord Collins, both raised this issue. I go back to 2015, when my right honourable friend the Member for Maidenhead, Theresa May, was Home Secretary. I remember working directly with her on this ground- breaking Act, when we were spurred on by what was happening in the UK. This was well supported across all parts of your Lordships’ House. It set the premise and basis for actions that we can take today. Other countries, such as Australia, have followed the United Kingdom’s lead. Yes, more work needs to be done and more actions need to be brought, but the steps we are taking on Xinjiang underline our commitment to further strengthening the Modern Slavery Act. It was set up to ensure that we stop supply chains that abuse people’s human rights. We will make full use of and, where necessary, strengthen the provisions of that Act.

I also assure the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, that the Government will provide guidance and extend provisions to support all UK public bodies to use public procurement rules to exclude suppliers where there is sufficient evidence of human rights violations in supply chains. Compliance will be mandatory for central government, non-departmental bodies and executive agencies. We expect this to increase public sector bodies’ ability and willingness to exclude specific suppliers, and we expect increased scrutiny to drive up standards and due diligence. Again, the noble Baroness raised this point on companies supplying the Government.

Both the noble Lord and the noble Baroness raised international co-operation and continued advocacy. The noble Lord, Lord Collins, rightly raised action within the context of UN institutions, particularly the Human Rights Council. I look forward to engaging with him and the noble Baroness on this, as we look forward to the next Human Rights Council. The United Kingdom returns as a member, but it is also notable to see China returning. I assure your Lordships that we will focus on our agenda as we did at the previous Human Rights Council; our item 4 statement was specifically just on the issue in Xinjiang and Hong Kong. We will continue to retain focus and build momentum. We have seen success, as all noble Lords know, in the UN third committee, where 39 members, building on the 28 in June, supported our statement on the situation in both Xinjiang and Hong Kong.

On the G7 agenda, which was raised by both the noble Lord, Lord Collins, and the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, obviously we are working through the importance of the agenda. The Prime Minister recently announced that he himself will be hosting the G7 leaders in Cornwall, and of course the Foreign Secretary will be convening a meeting of G7 Foreign Ministers. As my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary has said, the importance of the values agenda and of defending human rights will very much be factored into our thinking. As we are able to share some of the specifics of that agenda, I will of course do so.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Lexden) (Con)]

My Lords, we now come to the 20 minutes allocated to Back-Bench questions. Questions and answers should be brief so that the maximum number of speakers can be called.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con) [V]]

My Lords, my noble friend said a few moments ago that he had to be consistent with what he said before. I would like to raise with him the issue, which is being discussed now in the other place, of the determination of the crime of genocide. He has always said that that is a matter for the courts, yet Ministers and the Government are now arguing that it would be quite wrong for the High Court in this country, which the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, has made clear is perfectly competent, to do that. So how can it be right to say that it is a matter for a court, which my noble friend has already indicated would be subject to a veto, but not right for the High Court here to determine behaviour such as we are seeing in Xinjiang as being genocide?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend is indeed correct. We have consistently talked about the importance of competent legal authorities—the courts—ruling on these issues. When it comes to international matters, the institutions that exist, as the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, said, have been frustrated because of the lack of co-operation. The challenge that we have with the amendment being discussed in the other place—that is a live debate so I am mindful of what I may be saying to ensure consistency not just across two Houses but across two departments with two different Ministers speaking at the same time—comes to the issue of the separation of powers. I think our concern comes from the High Court having the power to frustrate trade agreements and the operation of the Government’s foreign policy. I assure my noble friend that it is not about whether or not genocide has occurred in Xinjiang; it is about the crucial issue of the separation of powers, which is the key concern of the Government.

[Lord Field of Birkenhead (CB)]

I thank the Minister for presenting the Statement. Might he tell the House a little more about the instructions that the Government have given to those who purchase a considerable range of goods on their behalf, including goods made in China, including cotton goods made there under slave labour conditions? If he could give the House more details about how he thinks the Government’s Budget is going to be used in this respect, we would all be grateful to him.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord is right to raise this issue. One of the specific announcements that we made was that, while there were obligations on the private sector within the context of existing legislation, there was a notable omission in the guidance issued to UK public bodies. We have used the proposal to further detail what we expect. That guidance for all the agencies that I have already listed will be shared with all departmental bodies and executive agencies, and it will increase public bodies’ ability and willingness to exclude specific suppliers. I think the sharing of evidence of where those specific suppliers are will also be helpful, particularly when you are talking about various departmental bodies. We also believe it will increase scrutiny to drive up standards and the due diligence that public sector bodies themselves apply when supplying to the Government. When we have the full details of that, I will be happy to share them with the noble Lord and put a copy in the Library.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Lexden) (Con)]

Unfortunately the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy, could not be reached. I call the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Newnham.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD) [V]]

My Lords, in his previous response, the Minister pointed out that the advice given to the public sector was not the same as that given to the private sector. Can he reassure the House that public sector procurement has not included PPE or other imports from slave labour? The House and the rest of the United Kingdom really needs that reassurance.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I cannot—and I am sure the noble Baroness would not expect me to—give 100% affirmation that every single public sector body and contract has complied fully with the issues that she raised. I assure her and all noble Lords, as I have the noble Lord, Lord Field, just now, about the new government guidance. We will work with public bodies to ensure that the rules are fully understood and that there is a sufficient focus on, and sufficient evidence of, human rights violations that occur in supply chains. We will make public bodies fully cognisant of these so that they can act appropriately. With that reassurance, I hope and am certain that we will strengthen our work within the public procurement sector.

[Lord Garnier (Con) [V]]

My Lords, the Government’s Statement, for which I thank my noble friend the Minister, is clear and well motivated, but, if I may say so, it is only so far, so good. Does he agree that China will do absolutely nothing until we name the senior Chinese government officials responsible for this inhumane activity, ban them and their families from travelling abroad, freeze their bank accounts and impose the widest possible Magnitsky sanctions on them?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My noble and learned friend may know the answer I am about to give before I give it. He makes very powerful points about the importance of the end result of the human rights sanctions regime that we apply. It sends a very strong signal to those who abuse human rights that there will be consequences to their actions. I also assure him of what I alluded to earlier: there has been a real move in international action on this important issue. As we look forward to strengthening our work with partners, I note, on China not co-operating, that we are pressing for access to Xinjiang for the human rights commissioner, whose visit is the next key stage. We will continue to work with our partners to ensure greater transparency on the Chinese side. The Chinese take note not just of debates here and in the other place but of the action taken internationally. They are concerned about the situation currently being raised internationally in relation to their position on the global stage.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, in the House of Commons last week, the Foreign Secretary said that what is happening in Xinjiang is “on an industrial scale”. Perhaps the most shocking example of this has been the reported export of 81 tonnes of human hair, shaved off the heads of Uighur slave labourers. Dominic Raab’s predecessor, Jeremy Hunt, said that no responsible country would engage in free trade agreements with a state committing genocide. Can the Minister give a firm commitment now, on the Floor of the House, that the United Kingdom will not negotiate a free trade agreement with China until the United Nations is permitted to investigate Xinjiang and these violations on an industrial scale? Also, will he ask the Foreign Secretary to urgently respond to the request of the movers of Amendment 3 to the Trade Bill, both here and in the House of Commons, to meet Mr Raab to discuss the next steps in dealing specifically with the crime of genocide?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, on the noble Lord’s second point, I know that my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary and his team will look at all requests that we receive from colleagues across both Houses. I will certainly follow up what the noble Lord has raised. On his earlier point, the important thing is that, in any trade agreement that we look to negotiate and are involved with, human rights will be reflected in our discussions; I speak as a Human Rights Minister. As I have said before, China is an important strategic partner to the United Kingdom, and it has an important role to play in the world but, in doing so, it needs to recognise that the situation in Xinjiang is not going unnoticed. China is now being pressed and held to account for what is going on.

[Baroness Blackstone (Ind Lab)]

My Lords, I welcome the fact that the Statement recognises the appalling nature of the human rights abuses by Chinese authorities against the Uighur people, some of which have just been described by the noble Lord, Lord Alton. Given the denial of access to the region and refusal to admit that these abuses are taking place by the Chinese authorities, I wonder why we are being so slow in applying Magnitsky sanctions to the violators. I want to support what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Garnier, has already said. The Minister has said we are keeping this under review. I hope that he will not mind me saying that this seems rather feeble in the circumstances that we are now in. Surely, it is time for action and not just keeping something under review.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I hear what the noble Baroness says. The new sanctions regime was only launched last summer. I am sure she would agree with me that many, if not all, the designations that have been made have been valid and done because of the strength of the abuses that have occurred. I say this very clearly: the situation in Xinjiang and the action we have taken is demonstrable of not just our concern but, as the Foreign Secretary has said in the other place, the dire situation faced by the Uighur Muslims and, let us also not forget, other minorities within Xinjiang. We have acted. Of course, I take note of the issue around sanctions, but the actions we have taken—in Hong Kong, in engaging and showing international support, on the issues and limitations on extradition treaties with Hong Kong, arms exports and the recent provisions we have announced on forced labour—show that the Government are not sitting back. We are taking action, and there is a wide range of steps we can take. Of course, as ever, I note very carefully what the noble Baroness has put forward.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I welcome and support these proposals but, bearing in mind the response of the Chinese government when the Australian government supported an independent inquiry into the outbreak of the virus in Wuhan, are the Government ready to hold the line and not back down if there is a similar response in this case?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I can assure the noble Lord that the government of China has not been, in any way, pleased with the leadership that the United Kingdom has shown on this important issue, both bilaterally in raising the issues directly with Chinese authorities, but also importantly in building international alliances—and we will continue to do so. We have an important relationship with China, but that does not hold us back from calling out challenges and abuses of human rights as we see them and when we see them.

[Lord Sheikh (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I feel that what is happening in China is reminiscent of the Holocaust, which has also been said by the Board of Deputies. The unfortunate victims this time are Muslims. We must now all decide to put a stop to what is going on. While I support the measures set out in the Statement, we need to take more robust actions and proceed to declare the persecution as genocide, invoke Magnitsky sanctions and consider legislation similar to the Uyghur Forced Labor Prevention Act in the United States. Furthermore, if the amendment on the Trade Bill is not accepted in the other place, we need to think about introducing similar measures in future. I would also like to add that if China does not allow outsiders, including a UN Commissioner, to have access to Xinjiang, we must stop Chinese officials from coming to the United Kingdom.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, there were a series of questions there. Some I believe have already answered, and I am sure my noble friend would acknowledge that. Of course, I share with him—as do the Government—the view that it is important to act and act now. As I have already illustrated, over the last few years we have seen real action being taken through multilateral fora, as well as directly, as the Statement from the Foreign Secretary has demonstrated. Of course, this does not stop here. If China fails to co-operate, we will continue to look to see what further provisions and actions can be taken. We take note of what our international partners are doing as well. As I have said consistently before, the application of sanctions works most effectively when we do so in partnership. On the point of stopping access to the UK for officials, one thing I will share with my noble friend, particularly through my engagement on multilateral fora, even with your worst foe you should never stop talking because by talking you are able to deliver your point of argument. China remains an important partner, so I do believe we will continue to work constructively where we agree with China and raise issues of human rights concerns where we do not.

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I too welcome the Statement, but I am conscious that it talks about co-operation with international partners. The Minister will recognise that sanctions in whatever form work best when there is across the board co-operation among countries. I note that the EU has just completed an investment accord with China. What actions will the Government take if EU firms manage to export items made with forced labour to the UK, while UK firms are disadvantaged? What conversations are being had with France and Germany to ensure that this does not happen?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

I agree with the noble Baroness. I can assure her that we are working closely with our European allies and friends on the important issue of global human rights sanctions. Indeed, they followed our sanctions regime. The practical issue that she raises is a matter for the EU and I am sure it will act swiftly in this respect.

[Baroness Goudie (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, last week I asked the Minister for Trade to what extent human rights issues were part of our trade negotiations and the signing of contracts. He was not able to say whether this would be the first item when we discuss trade with China and other countries. Can the Minister undertake that we will not enter further negotiations with China or anyone else without having human rights as one of the first items on the agenda?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I can assure the noble Baroness that human rights are a key consideration in our discussions on bilateral trade agreements.

[Lord Balfe (Con)]

My Lords, as I have said in this Chamber before, we have to look at the broader picture when it comes to China. The Belt and Road initiative is about a very different China’s place in the world. We need to pull ourselves together with the United States and Europe and take a common position. How are we going to get people on the ground to see what is going on? The Chinese are not allowing anyone in. Unless they do, we will not find out. We could not even find out what was going on in Leicester, which is in our own country. We must find a way of putting people on the ground in the province.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I agree with my noble friend. China is part of the international community. We continue to state the point he has articulated so strongly through all our multilateral fora engagements.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Lexden) (Con)]

Lord Singh of Wimbledon? There is no response from the noble Lord, so I call the noble Baroness, Lady Stuart of Edgbaston.

[Baroness Stuart of Edgbaston (Non-Afl) [V]]

My Lords, when it comes to Xinjiang, no one can say that we did not know. I welcome the Statement and, in particular, the transparency requirements for companies. In a liberal democracy, however, it is important to show that it is not just the Government who object to this but also the people of the British Isles. Will the Minister make it obvious when companies are not complying with the transparency requirements and encourage retailers, such as Marks & Spencer, which have made it clear that they will stop trading in cotton and garments that result from slave labour? We, as consumers, should be clear that we should not purchase any of these products.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

The noble Baroness makes a powerful point. We will look carefully at strengthening communications in this area.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I welcome the Statement. I have been particularly concerned about the horrific practice of enforced organ harvesting from prisoners of conscience in Xinjiang and other parts of China. The China Tribunal concluded that, with regard to the Uighurs, there was evidence of medical testing on a scale that could allow them to become an organ bank. Will the Government take action to hold British companies to account for their human rights obligations by preventing them exporting to China equipment that could be used for this horrific practice?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

I assure the noble Lord, with whom I have engaged previously on this issue, that we take this very seriously. He makes some very pertinent points that I shall reflect upon. Seeing how we can move to a practical application is very high up my agenda, and I am seeing Sir Geoffrey Nice later this week to discuss it further.

[Lord Austin of Dudley (Non-Afl) [V]]

My Lords, this is a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and the idea advanced by some that the closer the relationship with the West the quicker it will move to freedom and democracy has been proved completely wrong. While trade has increased massively over the last 30 years, China today is more illiberal and guilty of worse atrocities: a million Muslims in concentration camps, slave labour, people being killed, forced sterilisations, children removed from their parents, and anyone who opposes the regime locked up. The Minister and the Government should listen to noble Lords who have spoken this afternoon and we should impose Magnitsky sanctions on the dictatorship’s leadership and those who use this regime’s brutality to enrich themselves.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

I assure the noble Lord, and indeed all within your Lordships’ House, that we are not just listening very carefully in a number of areas; we are acting quite decisively, and we will continue to do so. I have had this portfolio as Human Rights Minister for three years. About three years ago—the noble Lords, Lord Collins of Highbury and Lord Alton, among others, may have insights in this respect—the debates on this in your Lordships’ House were few and infrequent. Today, we may have different perspectives on the speed at which the Government are moving, but I listen very carefully to the wise counsel of your Lordships, as do my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary and other Ministers. I assure noble Lords that we will continue to engage both within and outside the Chamber on the important issue of human rights, not just in China but across the world.

House adjourned at 5.02 pm.

International Soft Power Strategy: Role of BBC

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Monday 18th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the role of the BBC in their international soft power strategy.

[The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, the BBC plays an important role in promoting our values globally through its independent and impartial broadcasting. It is a central part of British soft power and influence. The role of soft power is being considered as part of the integrated review of security, defence, development and foreign policy. This will be informed by the conclusions of the cross-government work already undertaken on our strategic approach to this area.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD) [V]]

My Lords, what steps are the Government taking to co-ordinate their domestic approach to the BBC with their international soft power strategy? Does the Minister not consider that the repeated criticism of the BBC by Ministers, including the Prime Minister, and the right-wing press weakens the standing of the BBC and its reputation abroad?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, as I already said in my original Answer, we recognise as a Government the important role the BBC plays and continue to support its work around the world. Since 2016, the Government have invested heavily in the BBC, with over £370 million of funding. We continue to recognise the important role it plays on the world stage.

[Lord Austin of Dudley (Non-Afl) [V]]

My Lords, the BBC is the world’s most trusted broadcaster and its work in promoting values such as democracy, freedom and the rule of law is crucial when Chinese and Russian state-funded propaganda channels, with no commitment to accuracy or impartiality, are building large audiences in Europe, across Africa and Asia, and beyond. Will the Government commit to maintaining the funding they provided to introduce new and enhanced services—including the Russian service—after it runs out in September? Any cuts could put this work at risk, undermining the promotion of our values abroad.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord on the important role that the BBC plays. Funding is of course being considered alongside other FCDO spending priorities, as part of the 2020 spending review, but I would add that I also agree with him on the importance of new language services. During the previous period that I mentioned, between 2016 and 2020, the BBC has already launched 12 new language services supported by the Government.

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns (Con) [V]]

My Lords, our International Relations and Defence Committee report, published last week, welcomes BBC World Service provision of impartial information in three languages in Afghanistan. Does my noble friend agree that this work is important, because it contributes to fostering a more open society in which women can be empowered, and that the Government should maintain their financial support?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I agree with my noble friend and, through her role as chair, congratulate the committee on its important report. The FCDO is supportive of the BBC’s delivery of impartial and trusted news to Afghanistan. I spoke to the Foreign Minister of Afghanistan this morning on the importance of the role of women, in particular when it comes to peacebuilding. We believe that the BBC, particularly its BBC Pashto platform, is an important part of doing just that.

[Baroness D'Souza (CB) [V]]

My Lords, despite the proliferation of online news services, millions across the world turn towards the BBC World Service for accuracy and balance. Are Her Majesty’s Government planning to severely limit this most powerful of all soft power instruments, or will the current level of funding be guaranteed beyond September 2021?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I have already partially answered the question on funding. However, let me reassure the noble Baroness that we remain committed to the BBC, as has been demonstrated by our support for the 12 new language services over the period from 2016 to 2020.

[Lord Mendelsohn (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, the Government’s welcome and important funding of the World Service beyond the licence fee has more than achieved its objectives with a greater number of language services, double-digit audience growth and ever-higher trust ratings. Does the Minister accept that this unique world-leading asset for the UK is the right vehicle for further and larger support to achieve our vital national interest of combating disinformation and the use by hostile actors of dishonesty to undermine the stability of democracies?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I fully recognise what the noble Lord has said about the important role that the BBC World Service plays, for the very reasons that he says.

[Baroness Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I welcome the words of Richard Sharp, the newly appointed chair of the BBC, that it is

“part of the fabric of all our national identities”.

Does the noble Lord the Minister agree? And does he agree that a globally strong and domestically supported BBC is massively in the national interest? I am afraid I have to press the Minister. Will the Government commit to sustaining their investment in the BBC World Service which has reaped such great rewards?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

I agree with the noble Baroness in her opening remarks. On the issue of finance, we are currently reviewing FCDO priorities. She may press me, and she is entitled to, but I cannot give a specific answer at this time.

[Baroness Fall (Con) [V]]

Now that we have cut our ties with the EU, we need to be more, not less, focused on how we maximise our influence around the world. We have many assets at our disposal: a strong economy, our aid budget, our military, our membership of many influential bodies and we are chairing the G7 and COP 26 this year. However, our language and how we deploy it through the likes of the BBC World Service and BBC World News remains one of our greatest assets, as others have already iterated in this debate. I ask the Minister to reassure us that, as we look to review the licence fee, we do not cut funds to these most valuable assets—especially as we are competing with state media outlets from the likes of China and Russia.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

I have listened very carefully to my noble friend and I agree with her. Like many noble Lords, indeed all noble Lords, I welcome the role the BBC continues to play, and the Government are very supportive. I take specific note of the concerns raised on the issue of funding. I am sure the input from today’s questions will feature in our thinking as we move forward on the future funding of the BBC World Service.

[Baroness Bakewell (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, we live in times of fake news. “Fake news” is an allegation made by the President of the United States against the media in America. Will this Government pledge and make public their support of the BBC as a trustworthy news source?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I believe I have already done that several times today, and I will continue to do so.

[Baroness Coussins (CB)]

My Lords, can the Minister update the House on action taken by the Government to protest about and bring an end to the systematic persecution by Iranian authorities of the BBC’s Persian service journalists and their families, both in the UK and in Iran?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

The noble Baroness raises a very important point. I reassure her that we consistently raise the important role of journalists within Iran with the Iranian authorities. Let me also reassure her that, as she will know, media freedom and protecting journalists around the world is a key Government priority.

[Baroness Hooper (Con) [V]]

My Lords, in underlining everything that has been said about the importance and value of the BBC’s foreign language services, may I turn to the need to increase trade with Latin American countries? Are there any plans to build on the success of the BBC World Service’s Spanish-language Latin American service BBC Mundo? For our home consumption, will the Minister press the BBC to increase positive coverage of events in the region? I must confess that I often have to switch to Al Jazeera to get the wider picture.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

I take note of what my noble friend has said. In looking towards what is now global Britain and our support, I am sure that the BBC and its valuable service will be part of our thinking as we strengthen our approach to trade and other areas around the world.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD) [V]]

My Lords, does the Minister envisage that the soft power strategy that was anticipated will ever be produced, or has it been subsumed into the integrated security and defence review? Where will the BBC World Service fit into that?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

As I have already said, the integrated review is a vital part of that, and all these component elements will be in the announcement of the findings of the integrated review. The BBC World Service provides an important source of communication and information, as we have heard from noble Lords, and it will continue to be part of our thinking. The issue of soft power around the world is a key part of what we do. Whether we look at the BBC, some of our scholarships or global Britain’s place in the world through the Commonwealth, all of these are part and parcel of our soft power strategy and part of what will feature in the announcement of the integrated review.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)]

My Lords, all supplementary questions have been asked. We now move to the second Oral Question.

Nagorno-Karabakh

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Monday 18th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Cox]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the situation in the Nagorno-Karabakh region.

[The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, the Minister for the European Neighbourhood has spoken four times to the Armenian and Azerbaijani Foreign Ministers, most recently in November, when she welcomed the cessation of hostilities. We recognise that both sides have had to make difficult decisions to ensure the safety and security of their citizens. We of course remain deeply concerned by allegations of war crimes, desecration of cultural heritage and the humanitarian situation, and continue to raise these with all concerned parties.

[Baroness Cox (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply. However, is he aware that, despite the ceasefire, reports continue of atrocities perpetrated by Azerbaijani forces on Armenian military and civilian prisoners? During and since my visit, I have seen videos and photos of mutilations, torture and killings—there have been beheadings of Armenians—and heard of Azeris taking phones from prisoners, filming their torture and killings and sending these back to their families. Will Her Majesty’s Government act with great urgency to ensure that Azerbaijan is called to account for the continuing, well-documented atrocities, or will they allow Azerbaijan to maintain impunity?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I assure the noble Baroness that we continue to raise these issues at the highest level. My honourable friend Minister Morton, as well as my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary, are fully engaged on this agenda. We are, of course, supporting the OSCE Minsk co-chairs in this regard. On a positive note, we also welcome the recent news of an exchange of prisoners of war that took place on 14 December. However, atrocities need to be fully looked at and investigated.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)]

My Lords, Nagorno-Karabakh remains a frozen conflict and a continuing danger to regional peace. So far, our role has been limited, if not irrelevant. Can the Minister say whether we shall concentrate on human rights, religious toleration and the protection of civilians and religious sites?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I assure the noble Lord that the points he made are important areas to consider, not just in this conflict but in any conflict. I also assure him that those very points have been made in all our exchanges, with both sides. We have also emphasised the unfettered access of the ICRC to the region.

[Baroness Northover (LD)]

My Lords, following up on that, can the Minister tell the House what access the ICRC and other international bodies are being given in the area, to guard against feared ethnic cleansing? What follow-up might there be to independently investigate possible war crimes committed by either side?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, as the noble Baroness may know, on 30 October, the Foreign Secretary announced £1 million of funding to the ICRC to support its humanitarian efforts in this regard. We are working with international partners on the issue of access, to ensure that all people across the region receive the aid they require. It is important that crimes are fully investigated in any conflict, anywhere in the world. That is why we are very supportive of the work by the co-chairs of the Minsk Group of the OSCE in this respect.

[Lord Pickles (Con) [V]]

My Lords, following the recent ceasefire, Turkey suggested that it might deploy peacekeepers to the region. Does my noble friend agree that it is a prerequisite of a peacekeeper that they should enjoy the confidence of both sides? This is clearly not the case. What discussions have my noble friend and the Government had with the Turkish Government, our NATO partner, about how they might use their facilities to reduce tension within the region and ensure co-operation, so that those who have perpetrated war crimes and acts against humanity are brought to justice?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I agree with my noble friend on the principle that peacekeepers need to have the support of all sides to the conflict. My right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary and the Minister for the European Neighbourhood have engaged directly with their Turkish counterparts on the specific issue of Turkey.

[Lord Curry of Kirkharle (CB) [V]]

My Lords, we all share a deep concern and revulsion at the extent of these atrocities and lots of words have been spoken. However, it still appears that not enough pressure has been brought to bear to try to resolve this issue. Can the Minister confirm what international conversations he has had with the UN and others to bring more pressure to bear to resolve this dreadful situation?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, discussions have taken place at all levels. I have already mentioned the support given at the OSCE. There have also been discussions on this at the UN Security Council. The important thing is that the cessation and peace deal that has been negotiated holds, that there is a return of prisoners and that, ultimately, there can be peace in a region which has suffered from conflict for too long.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, I have two quick points. Picking up on the question of the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State at the FCDO confirmed last month in a Written Answer that she had discussed humanitarian access with Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Titov. Can the noble Lord tell us a bit more about the outcome of those discussions? Also, last October we had an announcement of £1 million going to humanitarian support. Can he update us on how that money has been distributed, and on what success the United Kingdom has had in encouraging others to give humanitarian support?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, if I may, I will write to the noble Lord on the impact of the £1 million. On discussions, we are of course raising the need both for support for all refugees in this context and for support within the region. We continue to impress on all authorities the key issue of unfettered access, also raised by my honourable friend in Russia.

[Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD) [V]]

My Lords, atrocities have been reported on both sides. Of course they must be investigated and prosecuted, but this conflict has been frozen for nearly 30 years. The rights of Armenians must be protected, but so should the rights of the more than 600,000 Azeris who have been displaced for more than a generation within their own country. So does the Minister agree that the international community, while recognising Nagorno-Karabakh as an integral part of Azerbaijan, has failed to progress a long-term solution? What can be done to ensure that this settlement leads to a permanent resolution and does not become the seed of a renewed conflict?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, the important point is that all occupied territories are vacated and that, ultimately, the rights of citizens within Nagorno-Karabakh are respected. In this regard it is our view, as I have said, that the Minsk process provides the basis on which this can be taken forward, and we implore all sides to co-operate fully.

[The Lord Bishop of Coventry [V]]

My Lords, as has been implied, thousands of Armenian monuments and cultural heritage sites are now under Azerbaijan’s control, including ancient churches, monasteries and cemeteries. There is evidence that Azerbaijan has already begun to deny the Armenian heritage of these sites, so what steps are the Government taking to support UNESCO in drawing up an inventory of the most significant cultural monuments, and have conversations been had with Azerbaijan about its responsibilities under the 1954 Hague Convention for the Protection of Cultural Property in the Event of Armed Conflict?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I assure the right reverend Prelate that the protection of heritage and religious sites is an important part of the discussions that take place with both sides, including on the case of Nagorno-Karabakh referred to in his question. On the issue of UNESCO making a detailed assessment of specific sites, I will need to write to him.

[Baroness Eaton (Con) [V]]

My Lords, according to Genocide Watch’s 10 stages of the genocidal process, published in November, Azerbaijan had already reached stage 9, extermination, and stage 10, denial. What steps will Her Majesty’s Government take to fulfil their duty to protect and provide for the victims of Azerbaijan’s genocidal policies in the recent war?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, as I have already said, I assure my noble friend that the Government have implored both sides to protect all citizens, particularly those in Nagorno-Karabakh, to make sure they have their rights protected and guaranteed. My noble friend will be aware that it is a long-standing government policy that genocide is a matter for judicial decision rather than for Governments or non-judicial bodies.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed. That brings us to the end of Question Time.

Foreign Policy: UK-EU Dialogue

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Thursday 14th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, we have agreed with the European Union that we shall co-operate on current and emerging global issues of common interest, including co-ordinating positions and maintaining dialogue in multilateral organisations. We do not need overly institutionalised formal arrangements or a treaty framework within the EU to continue to co-operate closely with allies on foreign policy matters, including EU member states. We shall continue to discuss shared foreign policy challenges and threats and we look forward to a future relationship based on constructive co-operation between sovereign and independent allies.

[Baroness Northover (LD)]

The 2019 political declaration, which the Prime Minister said he supported, proposed a partnership between the UK and the EU on foreign policy, security and defence matters. Why then did the United Kingdom not take forward a formal arrangement despite EU willingness? Will the Government now do so? If not, how do they plan to protect and promote our interests in Hong Kong or on sanctions and other issues?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, on the practical terms that the noble Baroness mentioned, she will be aware that we are working closely with EU partners and other allies on issues of sanctions and indeed issues relating to Hong Kong. The EU-UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement affirms our mutual commitment to democratic principles, the rule of law and human rights. As the noble Baroness will be aware, we are already working closely on many important issues—including issues of human rights, which are part of my portfolio—both bilaterally and through multilateral organisations.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, an unstable and unruly world needs strong alliances between countries seeking international stability and co-operation rather than competition. The Biden Administration will expect the UK not to behave in a way that weakens the EU. As all but six members of the EU are members of NATO, we have already integrated sufficient elements of our defence. Does the Minister agree that formal arrangements of co-operation between us on security and foreign policy are inevitable? He certainly did so in October 2019, when he strongly supported deep co-operation as set out in the revised UK-EU political declaration.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, as the noble Lord will know from his own experience as a Minister and as a Defence Secretary, and as he rightly articulated, NATO is the cornerstone of our relationship on the defence of Europe and the democratic values that we stand for. We remain committed to and at the centre of that NATO alliance, working with EU colleagues as well as other nations, most notably the United States. I reiterate our commitment to co-operation with our EU allies and others on important issues that currently confront the world.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD) [V]]

My Lords, the Minister reiterates the Government’s commitment to co-operation with the European Union, but now that we no longer have a seat at the table, what mechanisms is the FCDO putting in place to ensure that we have regular contact with our bilateral partners in the EU 27 and individual member states?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, as I have already alluded to in my original Answer, formality of mechanisms is not a necessity for having close alliances, not least as demonstrated by our alliances with the United States, Canada and Australia in our meetings through the Five Eyes. We will continue to co-operate with our EU colleagues, as we have done on important statements on the JCPOA and on support for human rights issues around the world, including a recent statement in relation to Xinjiang.

[Lord Lamont of Lerwick (Con) [V]]

My Lords, is it not the case that, for the most part, the whole idea of a common EU foreign policy was always more of an aspiration or a myth than a reality, particularly when one looks at the divisions over EU policy towards Kosovo, Syria, Iraq and Russia, not to mention the shambles of EU policy towards Ukraine? Nevertheless, is it not possible and in our interest—without getting bogged down in the rather impractical bureaucracy of the common security and foreign policy—for there to be some formal mechanism for discussing policy with those with whom, after all, we share certain fundamental values as well as the same geographical space?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend speaks from insight and experience and I listen carefully to his suggestions. Let me assure him that we are already working closely with EU colleagues. As the new relationship evolves, I am sure that we will look at how we can further strengthen co-operation on the very issues that he has outlined for reasons of proximity. As my right honourable friend the Prime Minister said, we want to be the best ally and the closest friend of the EU.

[Baroness Deech (CB) [V]]

My Lords, of course co-operation is a good thing, but now that we are free, we can diverge for the better and hope to persuade the EU to take a better path; for example, in relation to China. Only yesterday, we heard of the atrocities taking place there from the Conservative Party Human Rights Commission, but the EU has signed an investment agreement with China disregarding its crimes. Does the Minister agree that we must form an Anglo-American alliance and other alliances against Chinese atrocities and against buying Chinese-tainted goods and technology?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Baroness’s point about creating alliances against the human rights abuses that we have seen in places such as Xinjiang and the continued suppression of democratic movements within Hong Kong, but it is not just about further strengthening our alliances with the US; it is about building international alliances and co-operation. Let me assure the noble Baroness that we are doing just that.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister mentioned the JCPOA, and, of course, with the new US Administration, there is renewed optimism that it could be revived. The Government have been working recently with France and Germany in relation to Iran’s non-compliance. Could this E3 format be extended to other areas of mutual interest and concern?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord makes a practical suggestion. I am sure that in time, as we see the strength of E3 co-operation and with the new Administration in the United States, there will be areas of further co-operation in this respect. We look forward to forging alliances with the E3 and with other European states, both bilaterally and within the context of the European Union, as well as with the new US Administration when it takes charge after President-elect Biden’s inauguration.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD) [V]]

My Lords, now that we are no longer members of the European Union, what influence will we have, for example, in preventing the creation of defence structures which would duplicate NATO?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, we liaise closely not just on issues of defence but on other areas. The global human rights sanctions regime that we led on and that is now being taken forward by the European Union is a good practical example of that. We will continue to co-operate on defence and other matters with the EU to ensure non-duplication, as the noble Lord suggests.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Non-Afl) [V]]

My Lords, can the Minister detail the nature of future structured or unstructured engagement with the EU on foreign policy around the issues of security and human rights?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I have already alluded to that, but I assure the noble Baroness that we engage regularly. As a Minister responsible for human rights, I engage personally with the European Union human rights lead, Eamon Gilmore, and will continue to do so.

[Baroness Helic (Con) [V]]

My Lords, just before Christmas, and after 16 years, the United Kingdom left the EU-led military mission to Bosnia-Herzegovina. Separately, there are reports that the FCDO expects to cut expenditure on its western Balkans programme from the current £80 million to under £50 million or possibly even £35 million. Can my noble friend the Minister confirm that these reports of cuts are true and, if so, can I urge the Government to reconsider this step, which would have a damaging effect on our influence in the region and with our allies and risk being interpreted as yet further proof that the United Kingdom is turning its back on the EU and the western Balkans?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, we continue to engage on the Balkans. On the specifics of my noble friend’s question, I shall write to her.

[Lord Bilimoria (CB) [V]]

My Lords, the United Kingdom has one of the finest and largest diplomatic forces in the world, something of which we should be proud. Does the Minister agree that Britain has always been seen as a gateway to the EU and that now is an opportunity, with a new US Administration, for Britain to partner with the United States and the European Union on many areas, including security and foreign policy?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I totally agree with the noble Lord and I look forward to working with him on important priorities in terms both of trade and strengthening relationships, particularly in the Indo-Pacific region. Looking at the position of global Britain, it is worth reflecting that in under two years we have agreed 63 trade deals, which are valued at £885 billion. No country has done this; this is in less than two years. We still have trade deals being finalised with the United States and Australia to come. The picture for global Britain in terms of the facts on the ground is very positive. We look forward to strengthening our co-operation further with all partners across the world and working with your Lordships’ House, with the experience it brings, on strengthening global Britain and its place on the world stage.

[The Deputy Speaker (The Earl of Kinnoull) (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has now elapsed. We now come to the third Oral Question.

Hong Kong: National Security Law

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Thursday 7th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper, and in so doing declare that I am vice-chairman of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Hong Kong and a patron of Hong Kong Watch.

[The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con) [V]]

My Lords, as my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary made clear in his Statement on 6 January, the mass arrests of politicians and activists in Hong Kong are a grievous attack on Hong Kong’s rights and freedoms as protected under the joint declaration. These arrests demonstrate that the Hong Kong and Chinese authorities deliberately misled the world about the true purpose of the national security law, which is being used to crush dissent and opposing political views. The United Kingdom will not turn our backs on the people of Hong Kong and will continue to offer BNOs the right to live and work in the United Kingdom.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, as we have seen in the last 24 hours, there are many ways in which the precious gift of democracy can be trashed. Under the cover of such darkness, does the Minister agree that mass arrests by 1,000 security officers and police and the intimidation and arrest of lawyers, legislators and activists are the methods of a police state and a crushing and grievous attack on democracy, human rights and the rule of law, and require immediate, robust Magnitsky sanctions against those responsible and those who are collaborators? As we watch the unfolding tragedy of democracy being replaced by dictatorship, will the Minister spell out how, beyond the BNO scheme, we intend to honour our treaty obligations to uphold a high degree of autonomy in Hong Kong, now clearly violated under the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con) [V]]

The continued suppression of the right to protest and a real decrease in the rights to representation, through the actions against the legislative body and indeed the recent Acts and arrests, have been increasingly evident in Hong Kong. We will certainly look at Magnitsky sanctions in their broadest sense. I cannot speculate on the specifics, as the noble Lord will appreciate, but the UK has been clear that—whether in terms of a suspension of the extradition treaty or the imposition of an arms embargo—we are taking a comprehensive look to ensure that those who suppress the rights of the people of Hong Kong are dealt with in a manner reflective of the values that we stand for.

[Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I entirely support all that the noble Lord, Lord Alton, said about the concerning situation in Hong Kong. I am glad to hear of the Minister’s deep concerns about what has been taking place. On Monday I met Ted Hui, one of the lawmakers who has fled from Hong Kong, concerned about his safety if he remained. He has had his assets frozen by HSBC, as have his wife and parents, who fled with him into exile. Is the Minister aware of any private meetings that have taken place between his ministerial colleagues and HSBC since the bank announced its support for the national security law? Are we concerned that Beijing is co-opting banks and international companies that have strong positions here in Britain into supporting the security law and freezing the assets of people who have been arrested? What can be done with our allies—

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness is taking time in this limited opportunity for other noble Lords.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con) [V]]

My Lords, we are acting in conjunction with our allies and have led international action in condemnation of the actions not just in Hong Kong but in mainland China. We regularly meet financial services organisations and remind them of their obligations to all their clients, but it would be inappropriate for me to comment on one specific case.

[Baroness Northover (LD)]

My Lords, we led in the EU on adopting human rights sanctions. Since the UK has refused the EU’s offer of a formal arrangement to address foreign affairs, when and if we introduce Magnitsky sanctions, how do we ensure that the EU follows suit?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con) [V]]

My Lords, we are working closely with all our allies, including the EU. The noble Baroness will have noticed the recent statement made by the EU, but also by key countries such as Germany, condemning the actions in Hong Kong. On the specifics of sanctions and our human rights policy more generally, as I have assured her before, we will continue to work very closely with all our allies, including the European Union, on the important priorities that we give to human rights, not just in Hong Kong but across the world.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord McNicol of West Kilbride) (Lab)]

After the next speaker, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Garnier, I will call the noble Lord, Lord Collins.

[Lord Garnier (Con) [V]]

My Lords, as other noble Lords have said, democracy and respect for human rights in Hong Kong are being snuffed out in front of our very eyes. Does my noble friend the Minister agree that any further delay in deploying Magnitsky sanctions against those identifiable Chinese officials responsible for this will just be embarrassing?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con) [V]]

My Lords, we will look at all instruments available to us. On the issue of Magnitsky sanctions, as I said, I cannot speculate on the specifics but we keep the issue under review. To my mind, sanctions work effectively only when we work with our allies specifically.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

Let us turn to the Minister’s last point. The United States has been able to introduce Magnitsky-style sanctions against Chinese Communist Party officials and Hong Kong executive members who are responsible for imposing these restrictions. Is the Minister aware of any obstacles or reasons why the Government have not acted, despite the calls across this House for the last six months for such sanctions to be introduced?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con) [V]]

My Lords, as the noble Lord will be aware, we look at the sanctions policy specifically to ensure that the evidence base and thresholds are met. As I said, while I cannot go into specifics, we will continue to keep the situation under review—and, yes, act in co-ordination with our allies, including the United States, whose actions we observe closely in this respect.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford (LD) [V]]

My Lords, Title XII in Part 3 of the UK’s new deal with the EU provides that if the UK has “denounced”—that is the word used—the European Convention on Human Rights, the whole of Part 3 and all the security provisions cease to have force. Will the Government make representations to the European Commission not to approve the EU-China trade deal now before it unless there is a similar provision requiring China to abide by the current Hong Kong bill of rights—specifically its Article 16, on freedom of expression, and Article 17, on freedom of assembly? Will the Government ensure a similar provision in any trade deal between the UK and China?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con) [V]]

My Lords, let me assure the noble Lord that human rights will be paramount in our discussions on a range of trade deals around the world. On the specific issues of our work with the EU and the decision it has taken on its trade deal, of course we make representations with European colleagues and will continue to do so while working closely with them in this respect.

[Lord Walney (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, does not this further egregious breach of the treaty between us show that China has wilfully broken the friendship that we have long nourished and is firmly set on a path to be not a friend but an adversary of this nation and all who wish to maintain a rules-based order in the decades ahead?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con) [V]]

My Lords, China continues to be an important international and strategic partner, but where there are abuses of human rights or other challenges, issues and concerns, we will raise them candidly, both bilaterally and through international fora. If we look at issues around the environment and climate change, for example, it is important that China also acts in this respect.

[Lord Balfe (Con)]

My Lords, it is about time that we got realistic about China. It is on a course of expansionism where it is threatening not only Hong Kong but Taiwan, and fortifying islands. Will the Minister not work hard to build a common front, which includes not only our traditional allies but the frontier states of the former Soviet republics and Russia itself? Unless we can get them on board, we will not effectively contain China.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con) [V]]

My noble friend makes an important point. Let me assure him that my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary and I are working hard, including in my capacity as Minister for Human Rights, to ensure that we broaden the alliance against the human rights situation that we see in Hong Kong and mainland China. We saw recently at the UN Third Committee an increase in the number of countries supporting the UK position, which I believe went from 28 to 39.

[Baroness Cox (CB) [V]]

My Lords, will the Minister tell us what initiatives Her Majesty’s Government are taking to lead efforts to build international co-operation and establish multilateral mechanisms for response, including the establishment of a UN special rapporteur to monitor and report on the human rights situation, as called for by many serving and former UN independent experts last year?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con) [V]]

My Lords, my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary has been at the forefront of strengthening international alliances and action in this respect. I have already alluded to the progress we have made. The noble Baroness is right to raise the important issue of other representation within the context of human rights. I note in particular that the human rights commissioner recently put out a statement on the arrests. We continue to implore China to allow access for the human rights commissioner to China, to ensure that human rights can be respected and the world can see what is being done currently on many minorities within China.

[Baroness Warwick of Undercliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, given the Minister’s response to the noble Lord, Lord Alton, will the Government consider lodging a case against China in the International Court of Justice on the grounds that its actions in Hong Kong constitute a violation of the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con) [V]]

As the noble Baroness may know, an issue at the International Court of Justice requires both parties to consent. It would not, to my mind, be an option that we should pursue because it is highly unlikely that China would consent to such actions.

[Lord Marlesford (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I declare an interest in Hong Kong that goes back to 1961, when I first went to work there. Does my noble friend agree that one lesson that applies to China and the USA is that, in any civilised nation state, the exercise of authority needs both the support and consent of the people? Does he also agree that China must be well aware that it was fortunate to inherit from Britain the world’s third most important financial centre, and that to flourish, such a tender plant needs sensitive treatment?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con) [V]]

I agree with my noble friend on his final point. As someone who worked in financial services for 20 years before joining the Government, I totally agree that Hong Kong has long been a centre for financial services. It is therefore appropriate that, in Hong Kong, the Chinese authorities look to create the conditions and environment that allow firms to flourish and that centre to progress. I equally share his views that we must ensure freedoms and protections. He cited his long experience since 1961; he has had more time in business than I have had on God’s earth. Nevertheless, I totally share his view and opinions in this respect.

[Lord Carrington (CB) [V]]

My Lords, while supporting every move by the Government to condemn the actions of the Hong Kong Government and to build up international pressure on the Government of China, I would like to receive reassurance that the Government recognise their responsibility for the interests and well-being of all the people of Hong Kong, and that any action they take does not directly or indirectly affect the ongoing business and livelihoods of its people and companies.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord that it is important that we consider our actions in the light of the situation in Hong Kong and, equally, the implications of our continuing relationship. However, it is right that, while we recognise China and Hong Kong as important financial centres and trade partners—and, as I have indicated already, an important international partner on issues such as climate change—it is also right that we call out human rights abuses wherever we see them, whether in mainland China, particularly in Xinjiang against the Uighurs, or as we currently see in the continuing suppression of democracy, human rights, freedom and the right to protest. It is right that we do so and we have a special obligation, particular to BNOs. I am proud of the fact that the Government are taking specific steps in this respect.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord McNicol of West Kilbride) (Lab)]

My Lords, all supplementary questions have been asked.