President of Iran: Death

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Wednesday 22nd May 2024 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Stansgate]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the implications for UK foreign policy of the death of the President of Iran.

[The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, the Iranian President, Ebrahim Raisi, and Foreign Minister, Hossein Amir-Abdollahian, died in a helicopter accident on Sunday 19 May. The funeral, as noble Lords will be aware, is taking place today. Our policy towards Iran has not changed. We remain committed to supporting the Iranian people in the challenge of the human rights abuses that they face, and, importantly, to holding Iran to account for its destabilising activity. As we have said repeatedly, Iran must adhere to international norms and standards in any upcoming election.

[Viscount Stansgate (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that Answer. First, do the Government have access to any intelligence that may shed light on the effect of the President’s death on the population at large in Iran? There have been some reports that the reaction has been somewhat muted. Secondly, are the Government or the West more generally able to do anything to use the current situation to assist pro-democracy groups in Iran, as a way of undermining support for a regime that, among other things, so brutally denies women their political and civil rights, and recently launched the first ever direct attack on Israel?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, as the noble Viscount will have noted, I made reference to Iran’s destabilising activity. We have all, not least within the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office, been fully seized of the challenges we are facing in the wider region. That said, I know we were at one when we saw the tragedy of Mahsa Amini and the suppression of human rights in Iran. I speak as the UK Human Rights Minister in saying that it is important that, while this was clearly a horrific accident, our thoughts remain with the Iranian people as they continue their struggle for human rights and dignity within Iran.

[Lord Hannan of Kingsclere (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend the Minister just used the phrase “adhere to international norms and standards”, talking about internal elections. Can he think of any regime that has less adhered to those standards in its foreign policy and in its disrespect for territorial jurisdiction and national sovereignty, from the siege of the US embassy through to sponsoring attacks as far afield as London and Buenos Aires, through to this most recent horrific attack on Israel? Does my noble friend the Minister see any prospect for regional peace as long as we have that regime there, in Leninist terms, exporting its internal contradictions—in other words, trying to replicate its revolution far afield?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend articulates the extreme and intense challenges that many in the region face, not least from the destabilising activity of Iran. We have seen this in the context of the current conflict in Gaza, in support for Hamas, and through support for Hezbollah and for the Houthis in Yemen. We are determined to ensure that peace, security and stability must come when we see progressive Governments across the piece, but equally people committed to ensuring that peace, security and stability can be achieved only when it is for the whole region.

[Baroness Northover (LD)]

My Lords, commentators have noted that these deaths are not likely to change the direction of the Government of Iran. Could the Minister update us on discussions that the Government may be having with the EU and whichever US Administration may come in after its elections on what can be done to take forward the curbing of Iran’s nuclear programme?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness is quite right to draw attention to the issue of Iran’s nuclear ambitions. She will be well aware that we kept the JCPOA on the table, notwithstanding America’s withdrawal. We have seen increasingly—coming back to the point my noble friend articulated—Iran going directly against this by, for example, immediately prohibiting IAEA access to Iran. We have pressed on that; my noble friend the Foreign Secretary recently met Mr Grossi to assess the levers we currently have to ensure that Iran’s nuclear capability is not weaponised. We continue to be focused, including in our discussions with both the United States and European partners, and, I also add, with other key partners in the region.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, as we have heard, this is a regime that is repressive at home but also aggressive abroad, not least in this country. We have seen attacks on individuals, and attacks on and threats to the BBC, et cetera. I could continue. The Minister knows that we have repeatedly asked in this Chamber what the Government will do to ensure that the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps cannot operate. Will he commit his Government to take urgent action to proscribe this organisation as soon as possible?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord will know that I am not going to say what we may or may not do around proscription. What is very clear is that we have taken action directly against the influences of Iran, its people and its organisations, including the IRGC. The noble Lord is aware that we sanctioned the IRGC in its entirety, including key individuals. Iran’s actions have not gone unpunished. We have now sanctioned over 400 individuals and organisations in this respect and remain very much focused on ensuring that the very actions that we have seen here in the streets of London, which the noble Lord mentioned, are fully curbed. In that, I pay tribute in particular to our agencies, as well as other key components, including the police, who have had to deal with this to provide the security that every person in the United Kingdom deserves.

[Lord Bird (CB)]

I do not want to be a pain in the rear, but I feel like one because I want to talk about history. I wish the Americans, the British, the CIA and all that had not screwed up Mosaddegh, overthrown him and brought back the Shah. That led exactly to where we are today. When will we start learning from our history? We seem to forget it. We are the products of these problems.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I never see the noble Lord in the way that he describes himself. The challenges that any Minister faces from him in your Lordships’ Chamber are regarded with great respect. I welcome his insights. I assure him that the lessons of history inform the policies and programmes that the Government undertake. Both our personal as well as our professional experience lead us to ensure that we do not forget the lessons of history.

[Baroness Deech (CB)]

Does the Minister share my dismay that our representative at the United Nations stood in tribute to the death of the person who is now called the “Butcher of Tehran”? Will he ensure that all our actions in the United Nations are designed to keep Iran in its proper place, and not, for example, chairing committees on human rights and women, et cetera?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I assure the noble Baroness, as I am sure she recognises, of the action that the Government have taken. It was the United Kingdom, together with the US, that led the campaign to ensure that Iran was removed, for example, from CEDAW, an organisation very much focused on the rights of women. We remain focused in that respect.

[Lord Austin of Dudley (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, as I understand it, the Government have not proscribed the IRGC because they believe that we have to keep open channels of communication so that we can moderate Iran’s behaviour. Given that this is a state that exports terror right across the Middle East and here in the UK, kidnaps British citizens and launched an appalling attack on Israel just a few weeks ago, can the Minister point out what benefits the Government’s policy of engaging with Iran has brought?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, as my noble friend the Foreign Secretary has said on a number of occasions, we have incredible differences and challenges, and we have held Iran to account. Importantly, the engagement that we have had even in recent weeks, in advance of the attack on Israel which the noble Lord referred to, ensured that representations were made so that we did not see an increase in Iran’s destabilising influence. Those were conveyed not through any third party but directly to the now deceased Foreign Minister. It is important, as my noble friend has indicated, that when we are required to deliver those very direct messages, as we do consistently, we can do so directly to the particular representative of that given state.

[Lord Dobbs (Con)]

I will follow up the wise words of the noble Lord, Lord Bird, and go into the history. We know that the current Iranian regime is appalling and atrocious, but can we also reflect on the fact that our policies in the Middle East over recent decades have led to failure and disaster? The war in Iraq, the war in Afghanistan, Libya—we set out to do good things and we failed, and in many cases we made the situation much worse. Can my noble friend assure me that the Government will be much more realistic about their handling of the situation and our relations with Iran? There is no magic wand or weapon that we can use to change the situation there. Our foreign policy will be much more effective if we make it more realistic to what we are able to do rather than what we would, in some circumstances, simply want to do.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, having two questions posed to me about learning the lessons of history, I keep looking in the direction of the noble Lord, Lord West, but I fear he has run out of time on this Question. I agree with my noble friend. We have reviews that look at our interventions and strategies in conflicts past and at having a direct strategy on exit policies, for example. There are many noble and gallant Lords in your Lordships’ House who have reminded us of the importance of operational planning to ensure that, when we go in, as my noble friend said, with noble intent, we recognise what the intention is and how we will extract ourselves from conflicts. The lessons of history are important, but it is also important to remain seized of current challenges from those who oppose us, and to stay united in our response from your Lordships’ House and the other place as we look to these international challenges across the world.

Genocide (Prevention and Response) Bill [HL]

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

3rd reading
Friday 17th May 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, I welcome the comments of my noble friend and thank everyone who has engaged on this. The noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, said at Second Reading that many elements of the Bill were commendable and aligned with the Government’s own activities. I hope that, following the meeting my noble friend had with others, the noble Lord will also meet with me to look at how we can progress these things strongly. I welcome the comments and what the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, has said.

[The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, I put on record my thanks to the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy, the noble Lord, Lord Alton—who is not in his place—and the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, for a constructive meeting recently. The Bill has been an extremely important tool to bring focus to this important issue of atrocity prevention. As I have reminded the noble Baroness a number of times, I am the Minister responsible for this, but I work alongside other colleagues in this respect.

As I have said, there are many elements within the Bill that we are already undertaking and have committed to take forward. It proposes to establish a “genocide monitoring team”—we agree with that, and a dedicated unit is following this issue directly at the FCDO. Following the meeting we had with noble Lords earlier this week, I have asked officials directly to schedule a private briefing on how we compile, for example, the sharing of areas around early warning systems.

The Bill would provide for training for civil servants; again, it has been a useful tool for focusing on that issue. As I outlined to noble Lords, both at Second Reading and during the meeting, we have already invested in diplomats who have benefited from atrocity-prevention training. I am exploring options for making atrocity prevention training a requirement in the training provided directly to diplomats prior to their being deployed to conflict zones or areas with a high risk of atrocities. I recognise that there is more to do on building capacity, but, as I said, we do not believe in the primary legislation route here; much is already being done.

The Bill calls for the Government to report to Parliament. We have the human rights report, but we are also looking to see how we can be more specific on the elements raised in the Bill.

As ever, I am grateful to all noble Lords who participated in the important debates on the Bill. We are all at one on trying to prevent atrocities. Sadly, and tragically, we are not succeeding in that objective around the world today. But this means that we need to be more focused. As the Minister with responsibility for such matters, I assure all noble Lords that we at the FCDO are very seized of this.

The noble Lord, Lord Collins, and I meet regularly to discuss a raft of issues, and I say to him that I am keen to ensure that this becomes embedded in FCDO policy. I am very grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy, and others who have once again drawn attention to this important issue. I look forward to working with noble Lords across the House on strengthening our atrocity prevention response.

Bill passed and sent to the Commons.

Commonwealth Parliamentary Association and International Committee of the Red Cross (Status) Bill

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

2nd reading
Friday 17th May 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, I join all noble Lords in thanking the noble Baroness, Lady D’Souza, for tabling the Bill and for her important opening remarks in detailing the various provisions. Like others, I also thank my right honourable friend the Member for Basingstoke, Dame Maria Miller, for her dedicated work as chair of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, the UK’s branch, and for her tireless work to ensure the Bill’s passage through the other place.

The noble Lord, Lord Collins, talked about the second attempt; I have been Commonwealth Minister for seven years, and I look to my dear friends, my noble friends Lady Anelay and Lord Howell, who have also advocated for this. They say that persistence pays, and I am pleased to say that the Bill carries the Government’s full support. We have worked closely with Dame Maria Miller to ensure the passage of the Bill to where we are today.

Before I go any further, I, like others, turn to the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, first thanking him for his guidance and insights. I am grateful to his noble friend, the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, who brought to my attention some of the noble Earl’s notable insights and said that the first question he asked here as an Earl and a hereditary Peer—this is quite a tribute to him—was about legroom on public transport. As a former Transport Minister, I am told that we are very much seized of that issue even today. His final question was, aptly, on South Sudan. That shows the depth and the breadth of the consistent insights that he has brought to debates across development policy and foreign affairs.

Certainly, as a Government Minister for Foreign Affairs I have sought, I hope to the best degree possible, to answer the questions he has posed to me in his very courteous way. He has brought many insights, as we have heard, such as presenting the challenges on the development portfolio. I am sure I speak for all noble Lords when I say, as a Government Minister who has often been on the receiving end of the noble Earl’s insightful but quite direct challenges, that we have sought to always develop a relationship based on and steeped in respect. He has articulated all his contributions in that way, and I am truly grateful. I join other noble Lords, including my noble friend Lady Bottomley, in saying that his wide-ranging experience will be sorely missed in your Lordships’ House.

I am pleased that the Bill enjoys cross-party support. Indeed, it is the second Private Member’s Bill that we are discussing this morning that carries support across your Lordships’ House. I am grateful for the advocacy of many across both Houses, as the noble Lord, Lord Collins, said. I join him in acknowledging and paying tribute to Stephen Twigg. I enjoy a good relationship with Stephen and know that he has been a powerful advocate, as has my noble friend Lord Haselhurst. I was looking through the number of people who have raised this issue over the years, and I pay tribute collectively to them all.

As the Minister of State for the Commonwealth, I assure noble Lords that we will continue to work with both the ICRC and the CPA to ensure the Bill’s safe and speedy passage. It is hugely important. Both key organisations have waited for this status for a long time, and it comes at a particularly crucial time for both the CPA and the ICRC.

The ICRC, as my noble friend Lady Anelay once again reminded us, has been at the centre of international humanitarian work in recent years. As we look at granting this status to the ICRC, with wars raging in Ukraine and the Middle East, it is perhaps an entirely appropriate time to ensure that it continues its important work.

Equally, as other noble Lords said, in March we celebrated the 75th anniversary of the creation of the modern Commonwealth. We continue to work together in partnership with our Commonwealth family on vital issues such as empowering women and girls, bolstering the rule of law and good governance, and protecting the freedom of the media. Both my noble friend Lord Haselhurst and the great advocate for the Commonwealth, my noble friend Lord Howell, reminded us of this. Indeed, my own engagements earlier this week included a discussion yesterday with His Majesty on our planning for CHOGM and his focus on small island states, and earlier in the week a logistical discussion with the Secretary-General of the Commonwealth on planning for the CHOGM in Samoa. So, again, this is an entirely appropriate time for us to move forward with the Bill.

The UK values its partnership with the CPA and is proud to support work being done by the CPA and its regional branch, CPA UK. This includes developing benchmarks as indicators of parliamentary democracy and addressing modern slavery in supply chains and gender-based violence with parliaments and parliamentarians across the Commonwealth. The noble Lord, St John of Bletso, reminded us of the important work of parliamentarians, as did others.

The organisation’s current status as a charity has meant that the CPA has been prevented from operating fully across the Commonwealth and international fora. As Minister for the Commonwealth, I know how highly valued this organisation is. The noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, drew on her wide experience of the important role of the CPA, as did the noble Lords, Lord Purvis and Lord Leong. I agree with all of them, particularly on the point about the rich diversity of parliamentarians, in terms of both age and insight, that was provided when we hosted the CHOGM summit. Having the CPA meeting in advance of CHOGM was a valuable tool; we have shared that experience with subsequent hosts, including Rwanda.

Without this legislation, there would remain a high possibility that the CPA would look to relocate its headquarters outside the UK, an outcome that I assure noble Lords neither I nor the Foreign Secretary—indeed, no one—would like to see happen. That is why the UK has supported this Bill coming forward.

As my noble friend Lady Anelay reminded us, the UK has also supported the ICRC’s work over many years. I join her in paying tribute to Peter Maurer, its previous president; I also pay tribute to Mirjana Egger, who is doing a wonderful job at the helm of this organisation at a very challenging time. The UK greatly supports the ICRC’s work. It is an essential partner for achieving the UK’s global humanitarian objectives, having a unique legitimacy to engage all parties to conflicts and unparalleled access to vulnerable groups in conflict situations. Its specialised role in engaging with all arms bearers, including the growing number of non-state armed groups, is coupled with its direct delivery of a comprehensive range of integrated humanitarian assistance and protection programmes. It is therefore critical, as the noble Lord, Lord Leong, reminded us, to give the ICRC its correct status in UK legislation and to work together in order to deliver its objectives.

That is why this Bill and the provisions contained in it are so important. They enable the Government to treat the CPA and the ICRC in a manner comparable to that of an international organisation of which the United Kingdom, or His Majesty’s Government in the United Kingdom, is a member. By creating through an Order in Council the power to give both organisations the legal capacity of a body corporate, as well as specific privileges and immunities, the Bill will support the functional needs of the CPA and the ICRC, including on their property, information and certain personnel.

The list of privileges and immunities that may be conferred on the CPA and the ICRC has been informed by the International Organisations Act 1968. This will allow the Government to agree a framework that is appropriate to each organisation’s unique mandate. The actual suite of privileges and immunities to be accorded, including relevant exemptions and limitations, will be determined by the functional needs of each organisation and will be specified in the Order in Council, as noble Lords mentioned. For example, as is standard practice, the arrangements will make clear that there will be no immunity from a legal suit in the case of a motor traffic offence or damage caused by a motor vehicle.

It would be remiss of me not to mention something that my noble friend Lady Anelay and the noble Lord, Lord Verdirame, mentioned: the confidentiality provision in the Bill. It provides for the protection of certain information related to the ICRC’s sensitive work that it has provided to His Majesty’s Government in confidence. For example, it is protected from being disclosed in UK court proceedings—except criminal proceedings, as my noble friend said.

This provision reflects the ICRC’s standard working method of confidentiality, which is designed to protect its staff and operations in active conflict zones. The public disclosure of information that the ICRC obtains from confidential dialogue with conflict parties is likely to put this at risk. I have seen that directly in current conflicts and, indeed, through my direct engagement with the ICRC. It is important that this power is granted.

This is also a principle that underpins the ICRC’s ability to operate in dangerous locations on sensitive issues, engaging both with states and, importantly, with non-state actors. Indeed, as my right honourable friend the Member for Basingstoke, Dame Maria Miller, noted in Committee:

“There is a real risk and concern about ICRC information being used in legal proceedings—over the past 15 years, the ICRC’s confidentiality has been challenged some 20 times in the UK”.—[Official Report, Commons, 26/4/24; col. 1220.]


The Government therefore consider that this confidentiality provision is both necessary and proportionate.

The financial implications of the Bill are minimal. There will be little or no loss of revenue as a result of the fiscal exemptions or reliefs, which will be granted by delegated legislation through the provisions in the Bill. Refunds of certain taxes will be made in accordance with the separate arrangements between the Government and the CPA and the ICRC respectively, as is standard for international organisations. Furthermore, administration of the arrangements will be resourced from the existing resources responsible for managing privileges and immunities with international organisations in the United Kingdom.

I assure noble Lords, in particular the noble Lord, Lord Verdirame, that the FCDO will continue to consult both organisations ahead of secondary legislation. On the proposals for those statutory instruments, the Government propose that the procedure applicable to any statutory instrument made under this delegated power should be the draft affirmative procedure. I hope that this reassures the noble Lords, Lord Collins and Lord Verdirame, on how scrutiny of this important Bill will continue. Today’s contributions have demonstrably shown that the Bill is warmly welcomed across your Lordships’ House.

We will work closely with both organisations on a functional need basis in terms of specific arrangements detailing the day-to-day management of the privileges and immunities granted to them and other facilities. As I have already said, the FCDO has also committed to laying the draft Order in Council as soon as possible.

I conclude by thanking all noble Lords for their contributions. This Bill is an important step forward. It carries cross-party support; I pay tribute to all of the Members who, over many years, have made invaluable contributions to get us to this point in time. I again pay tribute to my dear friend, the noble Baroness, Lady D’Souza, for her stewardship and advocacy on this issue. It is important that the correct status in UK legislation is given to both organisations so that they can continue their vital international operations without restriction. This Bill reflects the Government’s strong commitment to the Commonwealth, which is extremely important in this CHOGM year, and our support of democratic legislators through our work with the CPA. It also supports our global humanitarian objectives through our work with the ICRC.

In commending this Bill to the House—I look forward to working with noble Lords on its speedy passage—I once again pay tribute to the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, for his insights. He will be missed but, as he has demonstrated again today, he leaves appropriate challenges for the Government and for whoever holds the position that I currently hold in the months and years to come. I am sure that, now and again, he will remind us with a little note—as he often does for me, saying, “Tariq, you may need to look at this one”. We are fully supportive, and I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady D’Souza.

Conflict in Sudan: El Fasher

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Thursday 16th May 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall now repeat in the form of a Statement the Answer given in the other place by my right honourable friend the Minister for the Indo-Pacific on the situation in Sudan. The Statement is as follows:

“Yesterday, we published a Written Ministerial Statement outlining our grave concern at reports of devastating violence in and around El Fasher, with civilians caught in the crossfire. In April, the United Kingdom led negotiations at the UN Security Council, alongside Mozambique, Sierra Leone and Algeria, to deliver a press statement, urging the warring parties to de-escalate in El Fasher and comply with their obligations under international humanitarian law. We also called for a closed UN Security Council consultation on the situation.

On 15 May, Minister Mitchell publicly called upon the RSF and the South Africa

“to protect civilians and spare Sudan from their wilful destruction and carnage”.—[Official Report, Commons, 15/5/24; col. 18WS.]

We continue to pursue all diplomatic avenues to achieve a permanent ceasefire, and we welcome plans to restart the talks in Jeddah. We urge the region to refrain from actions that prolong the conflict and to engage positively with peace talks. We have used exchanges with the warring parties to condemn strongly atrocities that have been perpetrated, and to demand that their leadership make every effort to prevent further atrocities in territories they have captured or threatened to capture, as well as to press for the need for improved humanitarian access.

On 15 April, the Deputy Foreign Secretary announced a package of sanctions designations, freezing the assets of three commercial entities linked to the warring parties. We will continue to explore other levers to disrupt and constrain the sources of funding that both warring parties are using to sustain themselves. We continue to support the Centre for Information Resilience, which documents, preserves and shares evidence of reported atrocities so that their perpetrators can be brought to justice. There shall be no impunity for human rights abusers.

Finally, we will keep working to ensure that the voices of Sudanese civilians are heard, whether they be survivors and witnesses of human rights abuses, Sudanese NGOs, women’s rights organisations, activists helping their communities, or those trying to develop a political vision for Sudan’s future. UK technical and diplomatic support has been instrumental in the establishment of the anti-war pro-democracy Taqaddum coalition led by former Prime Minister Abdalla Hamdok, and we will continue to support the Taqaddum’s development”.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, I welcome all the actions outlined in today’s response and in Andrew Mitchell’s Written Statement yesterday. This morning, Anne-Marie Trevelyan did not respond to my honourable friend Lyn Brown’s question on how the UK will back up the US red line promising direct and immediate consequences for those responsible for the offensive on El Fasher. Will the Minister do so now?

This morning, Anne-Marie Trevelyan also accepted the risk to millions of Sudanese if Elon Musk shut down his vital Starlink satellite internet service there. She undertook to raise it with the Deputy Foreign Secretary. Can the Minister reassure the House that Ministers will take urgent steps, with allies, to ensure the continuation of this service during this desperate time for the Sudanese people?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord’s second point. As I said in the original response, I assure him that we are taking all necessary steps, working with multilateral agencies and all key partners to ensure that vital services are sustained. The point he makes about the satellite link communication is key, as we know from conflicts around the world. It is a very valid issue to raise.

On ensuring that there are consequences and penalties for those warring parties, we have made this very clear through the sanctions process. I am aware that the US took further actions yesterday, I believe, in issuing further sanctions. The noble Lord will know that I cannot speculate on future issues, but I assure him that we keep this very much at the forefront of the levers that we currently have. We are also engaging extensively in the diplomatic efforts with those who have influence over both sides.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, I restate my registered interests on this topic. There are 800,000 civilians who are, in effect, now trapped in El Fasher. I agree with all of what the Minister stated and what the Government are doing. My understanding is that, over the last five months, only 34 trucks’ worth of humanitarian assistance has been able to get to a community of 800,000. My understanding today is that there is no child healthcare provision in the entire state of Darfur. There is also starvation and the routine burning of homes.

Will the Minister reassure me that there will be no immunity from prosecution for those who are perpetrating these breaches of international humanitarian law and war crimes? Given that there are now 4 million people in Sudan facing famine, with the rains approaching, what assurance can the Minister give that the international community will be getting more humanitarian support through to the civilian population?

Finally, will the Minister agree with me that there is now a very considerable concern over the break-up, in effect, of Sudan? The only way that there will be one Sudan is with extra support for the civilian and democratic groups, especially for women and young women, who have been so resilient and brave through the previous Bashir regime, then through the coup, and now with conflict. What support are the UK Government giving to ensure that there will be one Sudan, governed in a democratic and civilian way?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, on the noble Lord’s last point, of course I agree with him. That is why only yesterday the noble Lord and I were outside your Lordships’ Chamber discussing the situation and the importance of supporting the Taqaddum coalition and the efforts of former Prime Minister Abdalla Hamdok, whom both the noble Lord and I know well.

On El Fasher specifically, the noble Lord is right. If El Fasher was to fall, Sudan would split in two. We need to have the unity of Sudan, and that is a primary purpose of the United Kingdom’s efforts. We are very much focused on that. There are key countries. That is why we want the Jeddah talks to be resumed as soon as possible. Coming into the Chamber, I still had not received a date. I had a very productive call with the UN special envoy, whom I know extremely well from his former position as the Foreign Minister of Algeria. He has been engaging with both sides.

On the noble Lord’s point about humanitarian support, only yesterday, Minister Mitchell met the new head of the WFP, which is one of the many agencies we are working with. He will be aware of the donor conference that was held in April, where the United Kingdom pledged another £89 billion to support humanitarian efforts in Sudan.

[The Lord Bishop of Leeds]

My Lords, I note that I will be in Port Sudan in a couple of weeks’ time. Yesterday, I was at a round table on Sudan with NGOs and expatriates. The Raoul Wallenberg Centre made it clear in its research that there is genocidal intent behind much of what is going on in Darfur. The plea there was: how do we get international protection? We cannot say that we do not know this is coming. There is the perfect storm of famine as well as the massive artillery bombardment around El Fasher going on at the moment.

What can the Government do to protect civilians by any international intervention—as happened in the Balkans fairly recently—and to ensure that not just humanitarian aid but fertilisers get through, which are not getting through at the moment? Even in places where people want to grow their own food to avert a famine, they cannot; it is a double hit. I wonder how the Minister might respond.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

First, of course I appreciate the role of the right reverend Prelate with regard to the situation in Sudan. If I may say also, the noble Lord, Lord Collins, often raises this, and I know the right reverend Prelate is focused on this. We need to ensure that civil society and particularly the religious communities of Sudan also play a very active role in that regard. I look forward to hearing back from the right reverend Prelate if he does travel, with all the necessary caveats because of the situation in Sudan.

On security and the international force, the right reverend Prelate will be aware that the Government of Sudan previously ended the mandate of the Security Council on the UN mission. The current challenges within the Security Council are pretty polarised positions on a range of different conflicts. However, there is an active discussion taking place at the UN, and I believe there is another meeting taking place tomorrow. A return to the negotiating table with both the SAF and the RSF is required. That is what we are pressing for, and those who have influence, including the new special envoy, are focused on that. As I said earlier to the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, we are focused on getting the Jeddah talks resumed.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, what conversations are the Minister and the Government having with external actors, particularly the UAE, which are supporting the different sides? There are reports that a large amount of gold from the region is now being sold in Dubai and that the UAE is providing active support for the RSF. Are we making it very clear to the UAE that this does not help the situation and that it instead fuels conflict and potential genocide, as the right reverend Prelate suggested?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, as I already alluded to, we need all regional partners and those with influence over the two warring parties to focus on the importance of ending the conflict with immediate effect. The humanitarian consequences are dire. We have already heard references to Sudan being at the brink of famine. I previously went to Darfur in my capacity as the Prime Minister’s Special Representative on Preventing Sexual Violence in Conflict and was taken by the very dire situation then—and yet they were better times than what we currently confront.

On the influence of other partners, the UAE and a number of other countries have played a valid and vital role in the humanitarian effort, and the pledging conference was testament to that. Those who have influence over both sides need to ensure—as I said before; I cannot reiterate this enough—the importance of diplomacy. For any conflict around the world, the key element is to get the fighting to stop, the conflict to end and the political discussions under way.

[Baroness Hayman (CB)]

My Lords, I apologise to the House that I was not here at the beginning, but I have come straight from a plane from Addis Ababa, where I heard about the effects of conflict on undermining and turning back the achievements made in health. That is nothing compared with what is going on Sudan. I also met refugees from Sudan there, who are unable to do the work that they want to do to support their communities. There is a sense of despair in the region over the situation there. Does the Minister acknowledge that some of that despair comes from the international community simply not having the bandwidth at the moment to give this the attention that it deserves? I want to make clear the sense of urgency and desperation on the ground.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, first, I sympathise with the noble Baroness about having to get off a plane and come straight to the House. I know how that feels; I have had to go through that recently. Secondly, I totally agree with her on the conflict itself. After the imposition of sanctions, my noble friend the Foreign Secretary said that this is a conflict that we cannot forget. We need to ensure that it is on the front burner and that it continues to be discussed. The UN plays an important part in hosting those discussions, and we take our responsibilities as penholder very seriously; I assure her that we are focused on that. The pledging conference in Paris on 15 April underlined that the humanitarian elements are very much regarded as priorities, not just by the United Kingdom but by key partners in Europe, the US and the region.

UNRWA

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Wednesday 15th May 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, immediately following the arson attack against UNRWA’s headquarters in east Jerusalem, I made clear through a statement that the attack was completely unacceptable. We have also called for the violent perpetrators of this attack to be held to account, and also for Israel to ensure the protection of UN facilities and staff. We cannot allow room for extremism of any kind. That is a view shared by many of heads of mission, which have made similar representations.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, I am glad that the Minister has made such representations. Of course, UN internal documents and the head of UNRWA have reported months of attacks, obstruction and interference with UNRWA’s work. I hope that the Minister will continue to make those representations to the Israeli authorities to ensure that these humanitarian workers are properly protected. Has he also raised the attacks on humanitarian convoys and trucks, which are also impeding the delivery of support?

Can I also ask the Minister about UNRWA funding? The Colonna review—the Minister has referenced it several times—has now concluded, and countries such as Canada and Australia have resumed financial aid. The Foreign Secretary, however, told Laura Kuenssberg that he was “more demanding” and was awaiting the findings of the final UN Office of Internal Oversight Services before we resume funding. Can the Minister explain when we can expect a decision to restore funding to this vital tool for getting aid into the Occupied Territories and Gaza?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, on the noble Lord’s first question, both the Foreign Secretary and I have raised these issues quite directly and have issued statements. Trucks were going through the Jordan crossing and through the Erez crossing, which the United Kingdom has advocated for. It is a real tragedy that many of those trucks—a 40-truck convoy—were attacked. We have made strong representations and continue to do so. I know that my noble friend the Foreign Secretary has been very seized of this in his recent engagements.

On the issue of UNRWA funding, as we have repeatedly made clear and I have said several times, we of course recognise the important role that UNRWA has played and continues to play in Gaza and indeed in neighbouring countries. The Colonna report was on the issues of mitigation and made particular recommendations. We know that UNRWA has also responded to that. As my noble friend the Foreign Secretary has said, there is one additional report that is specific to the attacks of 7 October, which is the oversight report, which we are awaiting and will then make a full assessment. I underline again our strong support for the important role that UNRWA has.

[Lord Polak (Con)]

My Lords, I refer the House to my registered interests. I am sure that my noble friend will join me in wishing the people of Israel well on Israel’s 76th birthday yesterday, including the 132 hostages being held in captivity. On 19 November 2018, I said from this position that

“UNRWA, which was born in 1949, is now outdated, does not provide value for money”,

and that it

“refuses to help resettle the Palestinians and even refuses to take … some 2 million Palestinians living in Jordan”

off its refugee list. It therefore

“continues to perpetuate the problem”.

I appealed for a

“new and modern programme of aid and development for the benefit of the Palestinian people and all the peoples of the region”.—[Official Report, 19/11/18; col. 2.]

I therefore ask my noble friend the Minister: post 7 October, can the UK take a lead to urgently create that new, modern programme?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I am sure that I speak for everyone when I say that we of course join in recognising the importance of anniversaries. Indeed, the establishment of Israel was supported by the United Kingdom and is supported by all Members of your Lordships’ House. Equally, I am sure that my noble friend will recognise that it was a very sombre occasion in Israel. I have met with many hostage families and a recent comment that I heard was that there are 25 nationalities, and there are Jews, Christians, Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists who are held by Hamas in Gaza. That is why there is the human appeal to let the hostages go.

On the issue of UNRWA, I have a different perspective from that of my noble friend. UNRWA plays an important role; what is required is reform in terms of how it governs and the list that it provides to ensure that recruitment is done properly. As my noble friend reads the Colonna report, I am sure he will also recognise some really positive recommendations made by the former Foreign Minister of France. We are looking at those, but also require the detail of the report that the Secretary-General will get shortly.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister recognise that, utterly reprehensible as it is that even 12 out of UNRWAs 30,000 employees around the region should have been involved with Hamas, it is still really urgent to recognise that no proper humanitarian effort in that part of the world can be mounted, particularly in Gaza but also in the West Bank, without UNRWA being part of it? So, will he undertake that the review that he says is under way—we are now in the second month of the new financial year—will lead to a determination by His Majesty’s Government without delay?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I have already articulated the United Kingdom’s view on the important role that UNRWA plays. I have also said that we are looking to ensure not only that there are mitigations in place but that there is a full review of those abhorrent events of 7 October. The Government will be looking at both those reports and then making a decision accordingly, but I add again that we of course recognise the continuing and important role UNRWA plays.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, UNRWA has lost 89 of its humanitarian workers in this terrible conflict and, as the noble Lord says, is the only body that is able properly to administer support for more than 1 million children displaced within Gaza. That is equivalent to the entire under-10 population of Greater London. The impeding of that aid is a clear breach of the Fourth Geneva Convention. I know that His Majesty’s Government officials are collating evidence of when that supply is being impeded. Does the Minister agree that the Government should be as clear with us in Parliament as the US State Department is to Congress in providing all that information in a public manner? Will the Government do that?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord about the importance of ensuring that aid reaches Gaza, particularly those who are most vulnerable, the women and children. That is where the Government have been focused since the tragedy of 7 October, but even in advance of that. We all know the challenges Gaza faces; that is why we have advocated so strongly for the reopening of the Rafah crossing. I know it has been closed since Israel’s Rafah operation, including to important fuel supplies into Rafah, which need to be secured to ensure the facilitation of hospitals.

On the advice that the Government receive, of course there is a precedent, and we look at advice on a revolving basis. The Foreign Secretary receives advice from various sources, including assessments of adherence to IHL, and will then give his view accordingly.

[Baroness Helic (Con)]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Austin of Dudley (Non-Afl)]

I thank the Government Chief Whip. In February, the Hamas data centre was discovered underneath UNRWA’s headquarters and, just yesterday, UNRWA terrorists were discovered using an UNRWA school as a base from which to launch their attacks, so it is absolutely clear that UNRWA still has very serious questions to answer. In the meantime, there are other agencies with whom we should be working to get much-needed humanitarian aid in for the poor people of Gaza, who have been so terribly affected by the war Hamas deliberately launched on 7 October, when it raped, kidnapped and murdered so many civilians.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

I assure the noble Lord that we are doing exactly that. Notwithstanding that, the funding that we have given has also been focused on other agencies like the World Food Programme, UNICEF and others. I come back to this point: I am sure the noble Lord recognises that mitigations are necessary, and we are pressing on those, but, equally, UNRWA has the most effective structures in Gaza. We need to ensure that those are not just revitalised, but that they are done so to allow for mitigation of the issues that were previously raised.

[Baroness Helic (Con)]

My Lords, the healthcare system in Gaza has collapsed, and the last functioning hospital in Gaza, the European Hospital, has had staff leaving in droves as the IDF start active combat in Rafah. No aid is going through to Gaza and the field hospital which we are supporting is able to provide only urgent care. Children are unnecessarily losing their limbs. I ask my noble friend: will the Government take another look and see whether there could be, and whether we should have, a pathway open for children with serious wounds, so they can be given specialist care which can only be afforded to them in the specialist hospitals which we are lucky to have in this country?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I first pay tribute to my noble friend. Also, I am sure I speak for everyone in your Lordships’ House, irrespective of perspective on this conflict, in paying great tribute to those within agencies, particularly the voluntary agencies, who have allowed for UK medevac and those serving in the UK field hospital and others, for the courage, commitment and principle they show in bringing support to the most vulnerable.

On the issue of medevac, my noble friend will know that we have worked with other countries, including the UAE and Egypt, in facilitating that for those who are in most acute need of it. I also recognise the important proposal she has put forward. We want to ensure that those in urgent need, particularly children and the most vulnerable, are provided with that support. The best way that we can achieve this, as I say time and time again, is to stop the fighting, get the aid in, ensure the facilitation of all the medical services and get the hostages out. Human suffering does not look at religion, race, colour or any other creed; it looks at humans, and we must put humanity at the core of everything we do.

NATO: French Nuclear Weapons

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Thursday 9th May 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord West of Spithead]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what discussions they have had with President Macron regarding the allocation of French nuclear weapons to NATO.

[The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, French participation in NATO’s nuclear structures is a matter for France. None the less, we are pleased to see President Macron emphasising the European dimension to France’s deterrent. As the two European nuclear powers, the United Kingdom and France regularly discuss, and are increasing co-operation on, nuclear deterrence issues, to help safeguard European security, and the overall security of this important alliance.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, the defence of Europe is reliant on NATO, not some half-baked EU military organisation. We are safe because of NATO—let us not fool ourselves. We allocate out nuclear weapons to NATO, which is under the US nuclear umbrella. France, of course, does not, although in 2020, 2022, and now this year President Macron has floated ideas about French nuclear weapons being allocated to some EU organisation—I am not yet clear what yet.

At what is a perilous time for our continent, with what is going on in Europe, this is not the time to play little political games about nuclear weapons—it is the time to focus very carefully on a nuclear umbrella that has been the underpinning of our NATO protection. In our discussions with President Macron, we need to make sure that he understands this, but in the nicest possible way.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

I assure the noble Lord that we are always nice to President Macron and our friends across the channel. He raises a vital point. This is a key alliance and that is why, back in 1962, the United Kingdom was very clear about its independent nuclear deterrent and its use in terms of the European security question and in supporting the NATO alliance. We are having constructive engagement with France on the importance of European security, particularly in light of Russia’s illegal war in Ukraine. We have strong engagement at various strategic and technical levels, and indeed through the TEUTATES agreement, which builds on technology and research capabilities. The co-operation is strong, and we also welcome the statement made in President Macron’s recent state of the Union address, in terms of both tone and substance.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend the Minister agree, in relation to the important point made by the noble Lord, Lord West, that the unambiguous commitment by the United Kingdom and United States of their nuclear capability to NATO, and the clarity of purpose governing that commitment honoured by NATO, has been critical in maintaining the credibility of NATO as an effective defensive alliance? We should be very vigilant in ensuring that that stability is not threatened in any way.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My noble friend speaks with deep insight, and I totally agree with her. The strength of NATO is in the support of its membership—particularly those who have the capacity and capabilities. That is the message that we need to send today. As the noble Lord, Lord West, pointed out, it is particularly important, given the challenging times we currently face.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, I agree with the Minister. France’s nuclear policy is a sovereign matter, and a matter for the French Government. But we also strongly support the strength of co-operation between France and the United Kingdom on security and defence, and building on the Lancaster House treaties. The Minister mentioned the European dimension, which is a vital component of this—strengthening and co-operating with NATO. Does the Minister support Labour’s call for a new security pact with the EU, so that we can embrace all these issues, to complement and strengthen NATO?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, one thing we are absolutely clear on is that we want to work with key partners across NATO to ensure a strengthened alliance. That underlies the independent deterrence the UK brings, when it comes to the issue of nuclear deterrence as well. It is important that we co-operate with all key partners, but NATO is the bedrock of our security alliance, and that is where the United Kingdom’s focus is.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Cromwell (CB)]

More seriously, does NATO agree that there is such a thing as a tactical nuclear weapon, which is referred to by the President of Russia? I do not believe it does, but could he enlighten us?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords I fear that the noble Lord might be tempting the noble Lord, Lord West, to come in again. On his serious point, we need to be very clear that loose language is extremely dangerous in any context, and it is particularly dangerous at the current time. We need responsibility and real recognition—and the NPT treaty was signed by Russia in 2022, but it then went to war in Ukraine a month later. We must make sure those principles are upheld by all responsible powers across the world, and those who do not need to be challenged quite directly.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister has just spoken about the importance of language, and that was clearly addressed to the President of Russia. When having conversations with the President of France, are His Majesty’s Government also mindful of the need to suggest, perhaps in private, that we need to be a little bit careful about the use of language about boots on the ground beyond Ukraine?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, as a long-standing Minister at the Foreign Office, the brilliance of our British diplomacy is well known to me, and I assure the noble Baroness that we use those very terms in our engagements with all partners. I come back to the important point about language: it is key. Language matters, and every word that is uttered is monitored, reviewed and analysed very significantly. I say again that our relationship with France is extremely strong; we share many key priorities, including on the defence of Europe and standing together in unity against Russia when it comes to Ukraine.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, was it not a pity that President Macron talked about boots on the ground in Ukraine, when what is needed is air power, if we are going to win this war? Without it, we will lose it.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I am not the spokesman for President Macron—I speak for the United Kingdom Government. What is important is that we show unity of words, purpose and action, when it comes to fighting Russia’s illegal war in Ukraine.

[Lord Stirrup (CB)]

My Lords, our military capability, conventional and nuclear, depends crucially on industrial capacity, which it is clear that we in this country have allowed to atrophy to a dangerously low level. What progress are the Government making in increasing the capacity of nuclear enterprise in this country to meet the demands of the future—both military and civilian?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, we are making significant progress in that regard. I am sure that the noble and gallant Lord welcomed the Prime Minister setting out our bolstering of the defence budget, firing up much of our industrial base, including £10 billion over the next decade on munitions production, which will also generate new jobs and investment, modernising our Armed Forces and of course backing Ukraine in the illegal war that has been waged on it by Russia.

[Lord Morgan (Lab)]

My Lords, would not collaboration in defence with President Macron be much more constructive if we used the well-established channels of the entente cordiale, which are over 100 years old now, and ignored the observations, for example, of Liz Truss, who is not sure whether France is a friend or a foe?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, we have reached agreements through established channels, including the Lancaster House agreement. When we go back to exchanges going back to John Major’s time with the then president of France, there are established channels across defence and security. These are vital, and we need to ensure that they are strengthened at this crucial time for Europe.

[Baroness Helic (Con)]

My Lords, President Macron warned in a recent interview, commenting on European security:

“Things can fall apart very quickly”.


Nowhere is this surer to happen than in the western Balkans region—and that would have a devastating effect on the people of the region and the wider security, and it would enable Russia to open a second front somewhere else. Does the Minister agree that the European force, EUFOR, in Bosnia and Herzegovina, will soon need to be reinforced by NATO troops?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My noble friend has great insight on this issue, and I agree with her on the importance of ensuring stability in the Balkans. We do not want to see any repeat of the tragic and abhorrent war that ripped apart Bosnia-Herzegovina. The threat is very clear from Russia, as are the increasing threats from the likes of Mr Dodik when it comes to Republika Srpska. We need to stand together in support, both politically and militarily, to see what can be done, and not just across the Balkans. As my noble friend knows, we are engaged directly in support in Kosovo as well.

Israel and Gaza

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Tuesday 7th May 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Bishop of St Albans]

To ask His Majesty’s Government (1) what representations they are making to the Government of Israel in light of a potential new offensive by Israeli forces, and (2) what humanitarian aid and support of essential services they plan to provide to the region.

[The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, we want an end to the fighting as soon as possible. Well over six months since Hamas’s terror attack against Israel, it is appalling that hostages are still being held. Too many civilians are also dying in Gaza, and this weekend Hamas rockets killed four IDF soldiers and injured others. As we have said, the fastest way to end the conflict is to secure a deal which gets the hostages out and allows for a pause in the fighting in Gaza. It is then that we must turn that pause into a sustainable, permanent ceasefire.

Regarding the situation in Rafah, our position has been consistent. We are deeply concerned about the prospect of a military incursion, given the number of civilians sheltering there and its importance for delivering aid. It and other crossing points, including Kerem Shalom, must be reopened quickly to allow essential aid in. Israel must facilitate immediate, uninterrupted humanitarian access in the south, including for the entry of fuel, and ensure the protection of civilians and safe passage for those who wish to leave Rafah. As yet, we have not seen a credible plan to protect civilians.

We are following closely the latest developments around hostage talks and, at this stage, while events are still shifting quickly, we will not provide a detailed running commentary. As the Foreign Secretary has said, we want a deal agreed that will ensure the release of hostages and a pause in fighting. A generous offer was on the table last week, proposed by Egypt and accepted by Israel. We need now to see Hamas also accept the viable deal so that we can start building the momentum towards a permanent, sustained ceasefire. In parallel, we will continue to push as hard as we can to get much-needed aid into Gaza via vital land routes alongside sea and air to alleviate the suffering. Israel has now committed to significant steps to increase the amount of aid getting into Gaza. We now need to see this turned into action to ensure that aid actually gets over the border and is safely and properly distributed. I—

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

This is supposed to be a PNQ.

[The Lord Bishop of St Albans]

I thank the Minister for his reply. My concern is with the immediate humanitarian crisis facing civilians in the Gaza Strip, with Israeli forces now in control of the southern border crossing. What representations have His Majesty’s Government made about getting more fuel, food supplies and medicines in? Are there any other avenues by which we can get aid into the country to alleviate the immediate suffering?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I seek the House’s indulgence. The reason my Answer was slightly more lengthy is that it has been a very long working weekend on this and I wanted to give details. In answer directly to the right reverend Prelate, I say that we are imploring Israel to ensure that the crossings that were shut are opened immediately, including in Rafah. Noble Lords will know that the southern border on the Palestinian side is currently controlled by the IDF. My noble friend Lord Cameron had a conversation with the President of Israel this morning, and just a little while ago I also had a conversation with the chief negotiator of Qatar.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister has made the case: there should have been a government Statement today on this subject and we should have had more time to discuss it.

I ask two basic questions. Does the Minister not think that an attack on Rafah presents a clear risk of a serious breach of international humanitarian law? Can he confirm whether he or the Foreign Secretary have received any assessment—not legal advice, but any assessment or policy advice—from FCDO officials that the threshold has already been met? We need a clear view on that. This changes things dramatically. Also, as the right reverend Prelate said, aid is surely important. When will the Government resume funding to UNRWA? There is an immediate and urgent need for it.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

On the noble Lord’s second point, there were two reports set up by the Secretary-General. One—the Colonna report—has reported back; the other oversight report is being reported shortly. As the Prime Minister said, those will be reviewed. I accept the principle, as I have said repeatedly, of the important role UNRWA plays, particularly in Gaza. On the earlier point, of course this is evolving. We are receiving regular information. I have already made the point about the importance of the escalation into Rafah on a number of occasions. It needs to be immediately resolved, because there are now 600,000 children in Rafah—almost 50% of those in Rafah are children. We need to ensure their safety and security and at the moment, as I said earlier, we have not been reassured at all about any detailed plans on where these people will move. Mawasi is pretty barren land, but that is being suggested as a place where they may shelter.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that the Israeli Defense Forces advising 100,000 civilians, the majority of whom will be women and children, to move to a so-called humanitarian zone where there will be no support for food, shelter, medicine or security is a breach of international humanitarian law? Further, does he agree that, given the fact that the World Food Programme’s executive director said on Sunday that there is now famine north of Gaza, for the IDF to refuse entry of UNRWA staff to provide life-saving assistance is also a breach of international humanitarian law? Has the Foreign Secretary communicated that to the Israeli Government? What actions will the UK Government take, as it is a fact that there is no justification for the UK to replenish licences for military equipment and arms to the Israeli Government, given the situation? What are the consequences for the warnings that have been provided by Ministers, including that of the Foreign Secretary to me on 12 March? There is very little point in having a conversation if there are no consequences for actions.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, on the issue of consequences for actions, we have raised a number of concerns directly with the Israeli Government. I am sure the noble Lord saw, for example, on the issue of settler violence, that specific sanctions were issued on Friday, including against key settler organisations. These were a direct response. As the Foreign Secretary has said, we are making representations. Israel is a friend but, at the same time, the candid nature of our friendship means that we will not desist from action, as we have demonstrated. On the noble Lord’s earlier points, of course we are keeping all elements of our policy under review. What is really important, as I tried to get across earlier, is that we should be unrelenting in ensuring that aid reaches where it should and that there is a cessation in the fighting immediately. There is a deal on the table and I assure all noble Lords that we are working strenuously on the UK side in diplomacy to make sure that it becomes something that can last and be sustainable.

[Lord Pannick (CB)]

My Lords, as the Minister has recognised, it is vital to remember the hostages. Does he share my disgust that, after seven months, Hamas is still holding 133 hostages—some of them elderly, some of them children, all of them detained no doubt in appalling conditions—and using them as a bargaining chip in flagrant breach of international law? Will the Government redouble their efforts to do all they can to secure the release of these unfortunate people?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I give the noble Lord that assurance. I have on a number of occasions, as have the Prime Minister and my noble friend the Foreign Secretary, met directly with hostage families—sadly, I would rather I did not have to meet with them on a weekly or fortnightly basis. We give that added assurance, and have seen the real emotion gripping the streets of Tel Aviv and elsewhere. It is time to bring the hostages home, get the aid in and stop the fighting.

[Lord Clarke of Nottingham (Con)]

My Lords, we are very near to the prospect of aid being delivered by sea once the Americans have finished the construction of the quay that they are undertaking. Have the Government made any progress in reassuring us about the orderly and safe distribution of aid by that route when the quay is ready? What is their present position on direct British involvement, including the use of British troops if necessary, to work on proper distribution of that aid to the people we hope will be able to receive it?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My noble friend is right to raise the maritime route, and I assure him that we are involved in all elements of that process. We were involved in the initial call for that route, and there are developments under way. On the issue of safe distribution within Gaza—that is the key component of this—we want to ensure that we do not see the tragedies repeated against those agencies working on the ground that we saw with World Central Kitchen and other UN agencies, where workers were directly in the line of fire and were killed. They have the expertise. We are looking at all the dynamics on the best way to support the British operation in this international effort. As details evolve, I will share them with your Lordships’ House.

[Baroness Hussein-Ece (LD)]

My Lords, the Government repeatedly said that the invasion of Rafah should not happen and that it was a red line, as did the Americans. That invasion has already started, with casualties resulting from families constantly being bombed. As my noble friend pointed out, the place where the Israeli Government say they will evacuate 100,000 people—mostly children—to is not fit for human habitation. I know that the Minister is working extremely hard on this—I have enormous sympathy for the work he is doing and pay tribute to him—but conversations do not seem to be enough. What other action can the British Government take? They have been very silent over the weekend; I did not hear or read any statements from the Foreign Secretary.

Furthermore, do the Government support the work of the ICC, the ICJ and the chief prosecutor, who is a British subject and is facing threats to himself and his family from Republican senators? I am glad that international law has been cited on this Question because the ICC is trying to uphold international law. Are we expressing our support for international law at any of the international courts?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

On the noble Baroness’s earlier point, I have spoken proactively about the deep concerns. I know the lay of the land on Mawasi regarding the proposal to move. There are 1.4 million people in Rafah—the size of Westminster or thereabouts—and how to move quickly when almost 50% of them are children is why we have called for compliance. IHL has been mentioned and that is part and parcel of this.

On the noble Baroness’s latter point, the United Kingdom is a long-standing supporter of international courts. They act independently, and their role in the application of the rule of law is important.

[Lord Wolfson of Tredegar (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend agree with me that the quickest way to get aid in is to get the hostages out, the quickest way to get the hostages out is to have a sustainable ceasefire, and the quickest way to have a sustainable ceasefire is for Hamas to agree to the generous terms which Egypt has proposed and which Israel has already agreed to?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My noble friend has articulated the Government’s approach extremely well. That is exactly what I assure all noble Lords that the Foreign Secretary and I are working on.

[Baroness Deech (CB)]

My Lords, on the topic of international law, will the Minister remind Egypt of its obligations under the refugee convention to accept such refugees as make their way across the border, rather than beating them back? Will he also set aside the misguided, misinformed statement by—shamefully—some former members of the Supreme Court that it was plausible that Israel was committing genocide? That allegation must be put to rest.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, on the second point, the Government’s position is well known: genocide determination is a matter for the courts. We remind all sides, including partners, friends and allies in the region, of the importance of adhering to international humanitarian law obligations.

[Lord Leigh of Hurley (Con)]

My noble friend the Foreign Secretary set out five objectives—which I fully agree with—one of which was the elimination of Hamas from Gaza. I went to Kerem Shalom twice, once before 7 October and once after. Many of the people we met before 7 October who were delivering aid to Gaza have been killed by Hamas. The people who were left told us that one of their biggest problems was distributing aid because it was being taken by Hamas before it could be distributed. Do His Majesty’s Government still have the objective of the elimination of Hamas from Gaza?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, the Government’s position has always been that we need all sides who come to the negotiating table to recognise the other side’s right to exist. Therefore, we have been very clear as part of my noble friend the Foreign Secretary’s conditions, and as my noble friend Lord Leigh has laid out, that Hamas can no longer be in control in Gaza.

[Baroness Northover (LD)]

My Lords, have the UK Government seen any evidence that the Israeli authorities have put in place serious provisions to ensure that the Palestinian refugees in Gaza are being protected? If they do not see any such serious evidence—the Minister mentioned that he looked for it—what action will they take?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

I have already answered the first question; we have seen no credible plan as to where people would go. I assure the noble Baroness that we are pressing the Israeli authorities to ensure that their obligations in this regard are fulfilled if the full-scale Rafah operation goes ahead.

Pakistan: UK Aid

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Thursday 25th April 2024 Grand Committee

[The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, I am extremely grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Alton, for convening this debate and for his kind remarks at the conclusion of his speech. I thank my noble friend as well for what he said about my personal and professional commitment to this important agenda. I also thank my noble friend Lady Foster, for her kind comments, but while I accept this graciously, I also accept fully that the challenge we have over freedom of religion or belief around the world is immense. That is why I have been delighted, over the years, to support work on Christian persecution and the work that has been undertaken by my department in this respect. It has been recognised by many and has been transposed into policies and programmes. That said, as we have heard from all noble Lords during this brief but important debate, the challenges remain immense.

I begin by paying tribute to the strong advocacy of human rights in Pakistan, particularly for oppressed minorities, from the various all-party groups. I pay tribute particularly to Javaid Rehman, with whom I work very closely—I met him recently, albeit briefly and coincidentally—and to the work of Morris Johns. He is amazing in what he does and I join in the tributes of the noble Lord, Lord Alton.

I also thank all noble Lords for their contributions. The noble Lords, Lord Purvis and Lord Collins, raised a number of points on prioritisations, from bonded labour, which I will come on to, to modern slavery. I was delighted to meet my right honourable friend the former Prime Minister Theresa May, at the launch of her Global Commission on Modern Slavery and Human Trafficking. She is playing a very active role in getting that commission set up and I am sure that, as she looks at the key priorities of countries, she will be working constructively with Pakistan, a country she knows well.

The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester, among others, raised the importance of increasing aid. When we look at the stats, almost one-third of Pakistan’s population lives in poverty, and this was exacerbated by the devastating floods in Pakistan in 2022, when 33 million people were directly impacted. I remember visiting Sindh and seeing that the most vulnerable and marginalised were the ones who suffered. Therefore I am delighted that our programme looking specifically at some of the key minority parties, which I will come on to explain, is being expanded into Sindh.

I acknowledge at the outset—as I was saying to the noble Baroness, Lady Cox, just before the start of the debate—the need, which the noble Lord, Lord Alton, also acknowledged, to visit Pakistan. I think it helps. It helps the British Government in explaining some of our priorities and it provides valuable context on some of these challenges. Some of the communities that suffer, frankly, particularly those who are the most economically and socially marginalised and indeed come from a minority faith, often just accept what is being endured as the norm. We need to ensure that the investment in education is key, as my noble friend Lady Foster pointed out. That is why I am proud, over the years, of the commitment of successive Governments to 12 years of quality education for girls, but we need to ensure empowerment and access as well. The noble Baroness also talked about the situation in Thailand. I am seized of that issue, but I agree with her that, when we see what is happening there, it must have been pretty desperate for them to be in that situation.

The noble Lords, Lord Alton and Lord Collins, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Guildford referred to the issue of bonded labour in Pakistan. I welcome this report, because again it draws an important prioritisation on this issue. It is real and we need to face it. The UK is committed, I assure the noble Lords, Lord Purvis and Lord Collins, to eradicating all forms of modern slavery and human trafficking and we work with international partners, the IOM in particular, on the important issue of modern slavery.

I will take back the issue of trade unions in Pakistan, to see what kind of work is taking place. I can say to the noble Lord, Lord Collins, that it is a weak structure, but it is important that we continue to see how we can further work in co-operation with key bodies.

I will answer some immediate questions on the report. We have supported the Pakistani authorities to undertake the first child labour surveys in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa and Punjab. We are now using that data to support policy formulation on child bonded labour, including the formation of child protection systems. The UK is also working very closely on the issue of modern slavery through the £26 million we have allocated to the regional child labour programme—the FCDO’s largest modern slavery programme—which helps to deliver the UK’s commitment not just in Pakistan but in Bangladesh and India.

The noble Lord, Lord Collins, raised the issue of Afghanistan, which I have followed through. I have not yet had any further updates or announcements, but I will of course keep the noble Lord and the Grand Committee informed. We are very much seized of the situation in Afghanistan. Yesterday, I once again met the courageous Fawzia Koofi, a former vice-president of the National Assembly in Afghanistan, to understand the issue of the discrimination and marginalisation of women that continues in Afghanistan.

The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Guildford highlighted the injustices, discrimination, economic exclusion and wider intolerance suffered by minority communities in Pakistan. We condemn unequivocally the desecration of religious sites and graves and the violence against individuals, and we want perpetrators to be held accountable. On a personal note, I will be courageous enough to say to all noble Lords participating in the debate that no one knows better than I about the challenges that the Ahmadi Muslim community faces.

The right reverend Prelate asked about safe and legal routes. I know that the community has worked consistently with successive Governments on the importance of those fleeing asylum because of religious persecution. While the Government have a very robust policy on immigration, as we have seen in recent months, it is important to sustain, maintain and strengthen those seeking asylum in the UK, particularly those who are persecuted simply because of their faith. Let us be frank: I have seen the benefit of those who have come to our country. When you look at a proper analysis, they make an incredible contribution to the progress of our country, and we are richer for it. I can speak with some personal experience on that front, too.

Overall, our development budget for Pakistan this year is more than tripling, as noble Lords have acknowledged. I will spend some time on the specifics that have been raised. I assure all noble Lords that we are very much seized on some of the key priorities. On the brick kilns, I visited a zig-zag kiln in Lahore in 2021 with the then high commissioner, Christian Turner. On a more amusing note, the last thing that you want to do as a suited and booted British Minister is to be put on top of a brick kiln in the middle of summer—so I know how it feels. The zig-zag technology used in Pakistan evolves the brick kiln operation into something that is a substitute for coal, will reduce emissions and will improve the welfare of brick kiln workers. For some of the workers, that is their only source of income, so we need to ensure that there is an effective transition, both for cleaner energy and to protect their rights. I have seen that in operation. The UK’s £46.5 million Aawaz accountability, inclusion and reducing modern slavery programme is working to tackle child bonded labour directly, alongside the formation of the child protection systems that noble Lords alluded to. I have already mentioned the importance of the surveys; having read the ICAI report, I will follow up on specific elements.

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Alton, and others who came to see me in the aftermath of the appalling mob attack against the Christian community in Jaranwala last August. I have a regular drumbeat of visits to the region to ensure that the houses are being repaired—they are—and that the places of worship are being repaired, which I am informed they are. The issue of compensation is important, and I am told that it has begun. We want to follow through on that. Indeed, when I met the Foreign Minister from the new Government of Pakistan during his recent visit to London—as well as in my first meeting by phone call with the Human Rights Minister—I prioritised the issues of minority rights and forced marriages in our conversation.

The harms of forced marriages, raised by the noble Lord, Lord Alton, and others, are very clear, and we want to tackle them. There is a phrase in Islam, from the Koran, “Lā ’ikrāha fi d-dīn”, which means, “There is no compulsion in religion”. We need to ensure that that is carried through. I was pleased that we were able to exercise human rights sanctions in our human rights regime on a particular individual who exercised this vulgar practice.

I am conscious of time, but I assure noble Lords, including the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, that I shall look specifically at the issue that he raised about Dalits. They are among the most marginalised of the marginalised, and we need to stand up and ensure that their rights are equally protected. There are a variety of other programmes, including GOAL, which looks at improving education outcomes, with a focus on minorities, and we will continue to focus on minority communities. I assure the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Guildford on that, as well as the other Bishops—indeed, we have three bishops. The buses analogy comes to mind, but I shall not use that here. Their contribution to this debate is particularly welcome; we are following through in a range of initiatives, in prioritising and ensuring that education is not in any way lost.

Meanwhile, the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, will be pleased to learn that our hate speech and disinformation programme aims to protect vulnerable groups with a focus on making digital spaces safer for women and religious minorities. In the run-up to the general election in Pakistan in February we supported voter education, and we also support, through the UK’s Magna Carta Fund, Pakistan’s National Commission for Human Rights and the Minister for Human Rights. The review of technical assistance for Pakistan’s national curriculum has also remained a vital priority, and we continue to work with the new Government in that respect. The £130 million Girls and Out of School: Action for Learning programme focuses on improving teacher quality and learner outcomes for children in Punjab and Khyber Pakhtunkhwa. I assure my noble friend Lady Foster that we are working to ensure that much of this fund is allocated specifically to the education and protection of minorities. When I had my call with the Law Minister, Azam Nazeer Tarar, we looked specifically at freedom of religion as a key priority of our continuing relationship.

On the final point that I shall make—I shall of course follow up on any questions that I have not been able to answer—on a positive note, some progress has been made. We have seen the route for Sikh pilgrims into Pakistan being sustained and protected. We recently saw through our initiatives Pakistani Ministers attend various events, including during Easter and Eid, which involved all communities being in attendance. We continue to stress to Pakistan the importance of inclusivity, particularly for minority communities such as Christians and the Ahmadiyya Muslim community, which are particularly persecuted and denied voting rights. You either claim that you are a non-Muslim, if you want to vote, or you cannot vote at all. That is fundamentally flawed and needs to be corrected.

I shall continue to work with noble Lords on these important priorities to ensure that we deliver them. I know that we are short of time. I do not know whether we are up against the time on the clock—we have three minutes, I think.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

Could I just ask the Minister about the brick kiln report and the draft recommendations? Will he commit to write to those who have taken part in today’s proceedings, responding to the recommendations?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

I shall do so. I have read part of it—as I say, it is an active part of what we are looking at, and there is a series of work that we have been doing on brick kilns. I stress the importance of transition in a way that is practical and does not end up with people having no money at all—but I shall certainly respond formally.

I thank all noble Lords, particularly the noble Lord, Lord Alton, for convening us on this important issue.

Sanctions: Russian Individuals

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Thursday 25th April 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, the United Kingdom is at the forefront of international sanctions against Russia, and takes a carefully targeted and rigorous approach to weaken Mr Putin’s war machine and to demonstrate our unyielding support for Ukraine. Together with our international partners, we have unleashed the largest, most severe package of sanctions ever imposed on a major economy. We keep all our sanction designations under review, but we do not comment on future sanction plans.

[Lord Hain (Lab)]

Notwithstanding that, does the Minister agree that President Putin is successfully driving forward his barbaric attacks on Ukraine by managing to dodge sanctions, despite the UK Government-imposed measures he has described—including a price cap to curb his profit from Russian oil exports? There is mounting evidence that most Russian oil exports exceed that cap, and Putin seems to be getting all the income he needs to fuel his war economy. More targeted action is surely desperately needed. Will the Government now sanction the insurers—many of which are UK-based—of vessels transporting Russian oil above the cap, and also sanction owners of the ports hosting those vessels? Will the Minister try to get all our allies to do the same?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, on the noble Lord’s final point, as he will know, we are working very closely with our key allies, particularly the G7, on ensuring how we can have more effective implementation of sanctions and how we can address the issue of the circumvention of sanctions. As I am sure the noble Lord would acknowledge, we have seen successes; $400 billion-worth of money has been denied to the coffers of the Russian Government to allow them to continue their illegal war against Ukraine.

The noble Lord mentions specific issues around the oil cap. As he knows, we have banned the import of Russian oil and oil products into our markets. We have also created the oil price cap, to limit the price at which Russia can sell its oil and products globally. We are working with key countries to improve the issue of the circumvention of sanctions. Indeed, as noble Lords will know, my noble friend the Foreign Secretary was in central Asia during the week, and that was one of the key points that he raised during his conversations with Governments across central Asia.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

My Lords, the annual report of the OFSI indicates a dramatic increase in the volume of frozen assets, which, as my noble friend the Minister has indicated, is reassuring across a number of fronts. The question on everyone’s lips now—to use the popular lexicon—is whether we can move from freeze to seize. What investigations are being undertaken to see if there are legally acceptable routes to get some of that money forfeited and then adduced to good causes to help Ukraine?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

First, I commend my noble friend for summarising exactly the intent of the UK Government and our partners: to go from freeze to seize. All countries in the G7 have been clear on this. There is a meeting in June, which we will be part of, to look specifically at proposals on the table. The focus right now is on a windfall-plus proposal put forward by the United States, which would involve a loan to Ukraine issued by the US and other willing G7 members and repaid over several years from the future profits generated by Russian sovereign assets held in Euroclear. This is just one practical example of the kind of work that we are doing in co-ordination with our key partners.

[Baroness Meacher (CB)]

My Lords, I strongly support the idea of sanctioning Mr Putin and his colleagues, but once again I ask the Government to provide some assurance that great care will be taken to protect the great Russian people—many of whom I know—who may have assets and yet have nothing to do with the war in Ukraine and who have never supported Mr Putin anyway, in general. They are at risk as this country and other countries extend the scope and severity of the sanctions against Mr Putin and his colleagues.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

As I have said to the noble Baroness and others, and as I know all noble Lords agree, our fight is not against the Russian people. We have seen the appalling treatment of those Russians who have been brave—let us not forget the tragic case of Mr Navalny. We are currently seeing others being held, and I know noble Lords are very much seized of that. We need to ensure that we stand with the Russian people against the draconian regime which suppresses their rights as well. I add that our own sanctions regime is based on a principle which allows for legal recourse, if an individual or an organisation has been sanctioned unfairly. This again underlines the importance of the system of appealing against sanctions, if the individual or the organisation feels that it has been unfairly applied.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, further to the Question of the noble Lord, Lord Hain, Russian oil and gas exports are up 57% over the last year, primarily to African nations and India via an enormous shadow fleet that goes through the Red Sea. We have debated RAF pilots putting their lives at risk to protect that waterway, and we are also in discussions with the Indian Government about giving their energy sector preferential market access to the UK. Is the noble Lord not right that this is now the time to be putting in place secondary sanctions to those Governments who give landing permits for shadow tankers of Russian oil, circumventing UK sanctions, and to pause any particular aspects of discussions with the Indian Government until there is clarity about their purchasing of what is considered, from our perspective, illegal Russian oil?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I am not going to go into the process of what may happen next. Our relationships with many countries across the world allow us to have quite direct conversations about the issue of sanctions circumvention. The noble Lord is aware of the initiatives we have been taking with a number of countries—Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan and Georgia immediately come to mind. We have also had bilateral engagement with the likes of Turkey and Serbia. The noble Lord raises India specifically. We have a very open, candid and strong relationship with India. While we are in negotiations about the importance of the trade benefit to both countries, we recognise the important role India has to play. I assure the noble Lord that we exchange quite candid conversations on a range of issues, including the illegal war of Russia on Ukraine.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

I return to the question of the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie. When questioned from this side of the House about seizing those assets or using them to ensure that we can rebuild Ukraine, the Foreign Secretary has repeatedly said in this Chamber that “We are working towards it”, and mentioned the G7 and so on. Can the Minister tell us whether the Prime Minister raised this with the German Chancellor, to ensure that we get strong support across all the countries, so that we can act and ensure that the Russian state pays for its war of aggression?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

I assure the noble Lord that we have conversations with all of our key partners, including, as I have already said, quite directly with our G7 partners, on this very issue at the highest and most senior level. We are looking at various proposals; I have alluded to one. I also assure the noble Lord that we are looking at our own domestic legislation as well, to ensure that Russia pays for the damage it has caused, both through individuals who have been associated with the Government of Russia and with the Russian Government themselves. We want to establish a route which sanctions individuals who want to do the right thing—there may be some noble intent there, and so they can donate directly to this. It is important that we act in a co-ordinated fashion. I assure the noble Lord that we are doing just that, at the highest level with G7 partners.

[Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)]

My Lords, can we be assured that we are pressing ahead with sanctions against the murderers of Sergei Magnitsky under existing legislation which we have now passed? Should we not also be thinking about the same approach to the murderers of Mr Navalny?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I will not go into the area of what we may or may not do when it comes to our sanctions regime. My noble friend is quite right: I am very proud of the fact that it was this Government who introduced the Magnitsky-style sanctions, as they are often called, when it comes to the egregious abuse of human rights. It is right that we have acted in this respect. We work very closely with our key partners to ensure that those who commit these egregious abuses of human rights are held accountable.

[Lord Stirrup (CB)]

My Lords, when considering secondary sanctions, which may well have an important effect, will the Government take great care to ensure that we do not drive those countries that we are actually trying to woo closer into the embrace of Russia and China?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

I assure the noble and gallant Lord that that is exactly the priority. He will have seen the recent travels of my noble friend. We are ensuring that we build a broad and international alliance, to ensure that the systems, structures, openness and liberalism that we stand for—which allow people to prosper, as we have seen in our own country—are reflected around the world.

[Lord Touhig (Lab)]

My Lords, last week in Strasbourg, the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe recommended the seizure of Russian assets to be used in support of the people of Ukraine. Two colleagues from this House, the noble Lords, Lord Blencathra and Lord Foulkes, made powerful speeches in support of that proposal. They have worked out a scheme for how this might be done. Will His Majesty’s Government look at this and see if they can support it?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

Of course.

BBC World Service: Finances

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Wednesday 24th April 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Liddle]

To ask His Majesty’s Government, following the announcement of the resignation of the Director of the BBC World Service, what assessment they have made of the Service’s finances.

[The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, our assessment of and formal agreement with the BBC guarantees the continued provision of all 42 World Service languages. We provide approximately a third of the funding for the World Service, with the remainder funded from the licence fee. Our funding totalled £305 million over the spending review period. The BBC is operationally independent and responsible for setting budgets. The DCMS is currently leading a review of BBC future funding, including that of the World Service, which it is expected to conclude by the autumn.

[Lord Liddle (Lab)]

My Lords, I put on record my admiration and respect for Liliane Landor, who has resigned from the job of her life as director of the World Service because she cannot defend the cuts that are now in prospect. Does the Minister agree with me that the World Service is one of our greatest soft power assets? Soft power is crucial to us and to the West, as Russia and China are spending billions and billions on deliberate misinformation. Does he also agree that, given that the value of the BBC licence fee has been cut in real terms by 30% since 2010, the only way to avert this situation is for the FCDO to give more money to the World Service in grant as a matter of urgency?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

I agree with the noble Lord on the value not just of the BBC World Service but of the role that the BBC plays, particularly in the current challenging environments on the global stage. We have seen additional funding and support being provided. The noble Lord will recall that last year we announced an additional £20 million of funding specifically to support the World Service on language provision. I note what the noble Lord said about future funding, which is exactly why, in a strategic way, our colleagues at the DCMS are conducting the overall funding review that I alluded to in my original Answer.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

My Lords, having agreed that the World Service is a fundamental part of our soft power, does the Minister also recognise that, if that is so, it ought to be funded on a progressive form of taxation by the taxpayer, and not a regressive form of taxation by the licence fee payer?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, in his previous field as a diplomat, the noble Lord obviously had direct experience of the importance and support that the World Service provides. As I have said, these views are important and will be reflected on as we take forward the overall review of the BBC and its funding. I repeat that the BBC World Service provides a valuable service—as I have seen directly in the field through various travels—in a range of languages. Many people rely on the World Service, particularly at times of conflict. In areas such as Ukraine, and in the current conflict in the Middle East, it continues to play a vital role.

[Lord Dobbs (Con)]

My Lords, I welcome my noble friend’s description of how vital the World Service is. In the past the Government have described it as essential, invaluable and playing a vital role, and surely its role could not be more vital given the way the world is turning right now. The Government spend almost £12 billion a year on foreign aid, and the Prime Minister yesterday announced many more billions to be spent on defence. Surely there must be a better way for this vital tool of soft power to be funded than relying on the licence fee, where inevitably it has to compete with the likes of Gary Lineker and Peppa Pig.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

I am glad my noble friend did not ask me who I prefer watching out of Gary Lineker or Peppa Pig; it depends what mood I am in. On the point he raises, the integrated review in 2023 identified that the BBC World Service is vital. As we heard from the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, it is a vital component of soft power and for countering disinformation, and it is important that it is properly funded. The majority of the World Service is funded by the TV licence fee, but we gave that extra uplift of £20 million last year as part of our review and commitment.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, I hesitate to use the term soft power because, in a previous debate about the World Service, a Minister reminded us that data showed it was the

“top-rated international broadcaster for trustworthiness, reliability and depth of coverage”.—[Official Report, 10/3/22; col. 1551.]

When Russia invaded Ukraine, the people of Russia turned to the BBC. Two years ago, the Government gave emergency funding of £4.1 million to support that extension of journalism. Why do we have to wait for a further two years? Why are the Government not responding to the urgent need for trustworthy news going to Russia?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I reiterate that I believe it is a vital service. When we use the term soft power, we are talking about different services that the United Kingdom offers to the world and the tools that are available. Of those, the BBC World Service provides exceptional news information. I know that in the case of the Hindi language, the World Service is one of the most effective and listened to channels in India. The noble Lord is right that the Government provided exceptional funding of £4.1 million, and my noble friend alluded earlier to the additional support we have provided to Ukraine in its fight against the illegal war Russia has waged on it. We will continue to see what tools are available to us, and we will work to ensure that the BBC World Service, along with a range of other soft power tools, is utilised effectively. I agree with the noble Lord that it is particularly effective in conflict situations.

[The Lord Bishop of St Albans]

My Lords, I notice that the funding agreement with the FCDO runs only until April 2025, which is not very far ahead. Can the Minister tell us whether the Government are considering, at the very least, taking back full funding of the World Service in the longer term rather than leaving it to the licence fee?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I hear clearly the proposal from the right reverend Prelate, which has also been suggested by the director-general. I accept the premise of his question; that model existed until 2014. It is important that we make full leverage of funding. It is a challenging fiscal environment, but the Government have demonstrably shown that when we need to provide additional funding to the BBC World Service, we do so. The funding review being undertaken by the DCMS provides an opportunity to look specifically at the funding of the World Service.

[Lord McNally (LD)]

My Lords, this Question has a familiar ring to it. On 12 March, the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup, said the World Service was

“one of the most powerful soft-power tools that this country possesses”.—[Official Report, 12/3/24; col. 1916.]

He was followed by a range of noble Lords, including the Foreign Secretary, agreeing with him, just as we do this afternoon. The problem is that, as the retiring director has pointed out—I associate myself with the words from the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, on her work—as things are, the World Service will not be able to deliver that soft power unless it is given proper long-term funding. Given the range of agreement across the House, surely there is the opportunity now for the Government to produce a long-term, well-funded financial plan for the World Service that can meet the desires of the country and this House.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord will know the deep affection I have for him and his views, to which I listen very carefully. He will accept that the DCMS review, as I said earlier, will be looking at the World Service specifically. Soft power around the world is needed at a time of conflict and need. I alluded earlier to the Gaza conflict. The BBC World Service provides important signposting at times of conflict, such as where to go and where to get information. That is a vital example of what it does. Of course, I acknowledge the opinions expressed in your Lordships’ House. As I said, the review of the whole BBC funding envelope will look at every element of BBC funding but also specifically at how we protect this valuable asset when it comes to our global power across the world.

[Viscount Colville of Culross (CB)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as a former BBC producer. The Government’s grant in aid to the BBC World Service will now not be decided until some unspecified time after the election. The present grant runs out in March next year. Does the Minister realise the havoc this uncertainty is playing with the BBC’s planning for the future of its world and language services?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, for all funding, I accept the principle that we need to provide certainty and continuity. As we move towards an election, it is very clear that, irrespective of any result or outcome of a given election, we have seen successive Governments over many years show their commitment to the BBC and, importantly, to the World Service. Our commitment is that we will stand by the BBC World Service if we continue to be chosen as the Government of the day in the election later this year. I assure noble Lords that the review being undertaken by colleagues in the DCMS is very much focused on providing the very certainty to which the noble Viscount alludes.