Lord West of Spithead
To ask His Majesty’s Government what discussions they have had with President Macron regarding the allocation of French nuclear weapons to NATO.
The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)
My Lords, French participation in NATO’s nuclear structures is a matter for France. None the less, we are pleased to see President Macron emphasising the European dimension to France’s deterrent. As the two European nuclear powers, the United Kingdom and France regularly discuss, and are increasing co-operation on, nuclear deterrence issues, to help safeguard European security, and the overall security of this important alliance.
Lord West of Spithead (Lab)
My Lords, the defence of Europe is reliant on NATO, not some half-baked EU military organisation. We are safe because of NATO—let us not fool ourselves. We allocate out nuclear weapons to NATO, which is under the US nuclear umbrella. France, of course, does not, although in 2020, 2022, and now this year President Macron has floated ideas about French nuclear weapons being allocated to some EU organisation—I am not yet clear what yet.
At what is a perilous time for our continent, with what is going on in Europe, this is not the time to play little political games about nuclear weapons—it is the time to focus very carefully on a nuclear umbrella that has been the underpinning of our NATO protection. In our discussions with President Macron, we need to make sure that he understands this, but in the nicest possible way.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)
I assure the noble Lord that we are always nice to President Macron and our friends across the channel. He raises a vital point. This is a key alliance and that is why, back in 1962, the United Kingdom was very clear about its independent nuclear deterrent and its use in terms of the European security question and in supporting the NATO alliance. We are having constructive engagement with France on the importance of European security, particularly in light of Russia’s illegal war in Ukraine. We have strong engagement at various strategic and technical levels, and indeed through the TEUTATES agreement, which builds on technology and research capabilities. The co-operation is strong, and we also welcome the statement made in President Macron’s recent state of the Union address, in terms of both tone and substance.
Baroness Goldie (Con)
My Lords, does my noble friend the Minister agree, in relation to the important point made by the noble Lord, Lord West, that the unambiguous commitment by the United Kingdom and United States of their nuclear capability to NATO, and the clarity of purpose governing that commitment honoured by NATO, has been critical in maintaining the credibility of NATO as an effective defensive alliance? We should be very vigilant in ensuring that that stability is not threatened in any way.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)
My noble friend speaks with deep insight, and I totally agree with her. The strength of NATO is in the support of its membership—particularly those who have the capacity and capabilities. That is the message that we need to send today. As the noble Lord, Lord West, pointed out, it is particularly important, given the challenging times we currently face.
Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)
My Lords, I agree with the Minister. France’s nuclear policy is a sovereign matter, and a matter for the French Government. But we also strongly support the strength of co-operation between France and the United Kingdom on security and defence, and building on the Lancaster House treaties. The Minister mentioned the European dimension, which is a vital component of this—strengthening and co-operating with NATO. Does the Minister support Labour’s call for a new security pact with the EU, so that we can embrace all these issues, to complement and strengthen NATO?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)
My Lords, one thing we are absolutely clear on is that we want to work with key partners across NATO to ensure a strengthened alliance. That underlies the independent deterrence the UK brings, when it comes to the issue of nuclear deterrence as well. It is important that we co-operate with all key partners, but NATO is the bedrock of our security alliance, and that is where the United Kingdom’s focus is.
Lord Cromwell (CB)
More seriously, does NATO agree that there is such a thing as a tactical nuclear weapon, which is referred to by the President of Russia? I do not believe it does, but could he enlighten us?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)
My Lords I fear that the noble Lord might be tempting the noble Lord, Lord West, to come in again. On his serious point, we need to be very clear that loose language is extremely dangerous in any context, and it is particularly dangerous at the current time. We need responsibility and real recognition—and the NPT treaty was signed by Russia in 2022, but it then went to war in Ukraine a month later. We must make sure those principles are upheld by all responsible powers across the world, and those who do not need to be challenged quite directly.
Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)
My Lords, the Minister has just spoken about the importance of language, and that was clearly addressed to the President of Russia. When having conversations with the President of France, are His Majesty’s Government also mindful of the need to suggest, perhaps in private, that we need to be a little bit careful about the use of language about boots on the ground beyond Ukraine?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)
My Lords, as a long-standing Minister at the Foreign Office, the brilliance of our British diplomacy is well known to me, and I assure the noble Baroness that we use those very terms in our engagements with all partners. I come back to the important point about language: it is key. Language matters, and every word that is uttered is monitored, reviewed and analysed very significantly. I say again that our relationship with France is extremely strong; we share many key priorities, including on the defence of Europe and standing together in unity against Russia when it comes to Ukraine.
Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)
My Lords, was it not a pity that President Macron talked about boots on the ground in Ukraine, when what is needed is air power, if we are going to win this war? Without it, we will lose it.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)
My Lords, I am not the spokesman for President Macron—I speak for the United Kingdom Government. What is important is that we show unity of words, purpose and action, when it comes to fighting Russia’s illegal war in Ukraine.
Lord Stirrup (CB)
My Lords, our military capability, conventional and nuclear, depends crucially on industrial capacity, which it is clear that we in this country have allowed to atrophy to a dangerously low level. What progress are the Government making in increasing the capacity of nuclear enterprise in this country to meet the demands of the future—both military and civilian?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)
My Lords, we are making significant progress in that regard. I am sure that the noble and gallant Lord welcomed the Prime Minister setting out our bolstering of the defence budget, firing up much of our industrial base, including £10 billion over the next decade on munitions production, which will also generate new jobs and investment, modernising our Armed Forces and of course backing Ukraine in the illegal war that has been waged on it by Russia.
Lord Morgan (Lab)
My Lords, would not collaboration in defence with President Macron be much more constructive if we used the well-established channels of the entente cordiale, which are over 100 years old now, and ignored the observations, for example, of Liz Truss, who is not sure whether France is a friend or a foe?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)
My Lords, we have reached agreements through established channels, including the Lancaster House agreement. When we go back to exchanges going back to John Major’s time with the then president of France, there are established channels across defence and security. These are vital, and we need to ensure that they are strengthened at this crucial time for Europe.
Baroness Helic (Con)
My Lords, President Macron warned in a recent interview, commenting on European security:
“Things can fall apart very quickly”.
Nowhere is this surer to happen than in the western Balkans region—and that would have a devastating effect on the people of the region and the wider security, and it would enable Russia to open a second front somewhere else. Does the Minister agree that the European force, EUFOR, in Bosnia and Herzegovina, will soon need to be reinforced by NATO troops?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)
My noble friend has great insight on this issue, and I agree with her on the importance of ensuring stability in the Balkans. We do not want to see any repeat of the tragic and abhorrent war that ripped apart Bosnia-Herzegovina. The threat is very clear from Russia, as are the increasing threats from the likes of Mr Dodik when it comes to Republika Srpska. We need to stand together in support, both politically and militarily, to see what can be done, and not just across the Balkans. As my noble friend knows, we are engaged directly in support in Kosovo as well.