Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Bill [HL]
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon ExcerptsMonday 21st May 2018
(7 years, 8 months ago)
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Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments 1 to 3.
“(ea) provide accountability for or be a deterrent to gross violations of human rights, or otherwise promote—
(i) compliance with international human rights law, or
(ii) respect for human rights,”
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)
My Lords, the abuse of human rights was an issue of significant concern to both your Lordships’ House and the other place, as was made clear by many people who spoke at various stages of the Bill. The Government fully recognise why noble Lords and Members of the other place wished to reference gross human rights abuses explicitly, particularly in reference to the abhorrent case of Sergei Magnitsky. In her speech to the other House on 14 March, the Prime Minister made clear the Government’s intention to bring forward a “Magnitsky amendment” to the Bill. As a result, the Government worked closely and constructively with all sides of the other House to table these amendments, which have captured the maximum possible consensus in this area.
Commons Amendment 1 puts gross human rights abuses in the Bill as a purpose for which sanctions may be imposed. Commons Amendment 5 links the existing definition of a,
“gross violation of human rights”,
to the definition in the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002, and so ensures that it includes the torture of a person,
“by a public official, or a person acting in an official capacity”,
where the tortured person has sought to,
“expose illegal activity carried out by a public official”,
or to defend,
“human rights and fundamental freedoms”.
This makes it clear that all gross human rights abuses or violations are explicitly captured within the Bill. Commons Amendments 2, 3, 6, 7, 8, 14, 15, 19 and 20 are consequential on the changes to Clause 1.
Amendment 17 requires reports to be made about the use of the power to make sanctions regulations. Reports must identify regulations that have been made for human rights purposes. They must also specify any recommendations made by a parliamentary committee about the use of that power in relation to gross human rights violations, and include the Government’s response to any recommendations. It is right and proper that scrutiny of the regulations is carried out by Parliament.
Commons Amendment 16 was tabled in recognition of the concerns, raised by both the Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation and the Joint Committee on Human Rights, that the repeal of Part 1 of the Terrorist Asset-Freezing etc. Act 2010—TAFA—would remove the independent reviewer’s oversight of the UK’s counter-terrorism asset freezes. I can assure all noble Lords that there was never any intention by the Government to remove independent oversight of the UK’s counter- terrorism asset-freezing regulations made under this Bill. That is why a carefully drafted government amendment was tabled in the other place to replicate effectively the scope of the independent oversight currently provided under TAFA. This ensures that there will be no removal or narrowing of the oversight of counterterrorism asset freezes as a result of the Bill.
The amendment also makes the Government’s commitment to this clear by imposing a duty to appoint an independent reviewer. The duty applies to any part of sanctions regulations that imposes asset freezes that are not made for a purpose that implements international obligations in this area but would further the prevention of terrorism. This is consistent with the scope of the independent oversight provided for under TAFA, thereby ensuring there is no removal or narrowing of the oversight of counterterrorism asset freezes as a result of the Bill.
I put it on record again that the Government are committed to promoting and strengthening universal human rights, and holding to account states and individuals responsible for the most serious violations. We will continue to do this after we leave the European Union and we intend that the powers in the Bill should allow us to be part of a global network of like-minded jurisdictions, working together to tackle those who commit gross human rights violations. We will continue to work with international partners to this end. I beg to move.
Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)
My Lords, it is good to turn to a period of calm after the clash and clamour of Brexit. I congratulate the Government on responding to the pressures in this House and the other place, and on taking a stand that I hope will be followed by other countries where appropriate. The current amendments relate to sanctions on the perpetrators of human rights abuses, wherever committed, and against individuals rather than states. They are therefore smart sanctions and I congratulate Sir Alan Duncan in the other place and those who have worked together. The Minister stressed that it was an all-party group and I believe the amendments in the other place were signed by all parties. This is therefore very important.
I congratulate also Bill Browder, who has worked tirelessly following the murder in custody of Sergei Magnitsky. These amendments are made in the context of the poisoning of Sergei and Yulia Skripal in Salisbury and the murder of Magnitsky in Russia in 2009, but they are clearly not limited to Russia. They are much broader and universal, just as the Magnitsky Act of 2012 in the US was, in 2016, broadened to include perpetrators of gross human rights abuses wherever committed. As the Prime Minister has said:
“There is no place for these people—or their money—in our country”.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part in this short debate. From the outset, I thank Members for their engagement during this Bill, both in your Lordships’ House or in the other place. I commend the efforts of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, my noble friend Lord Faulks and others who over a lengthy period of time, from all sides of the Chamber, have talked on the importance of such a clause. I am mindful that I do not see the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy, in her place, but I know that she has a Private Member’s Bill in this respect as well, and I acknowledge her efforts in that regard.
I shall pick up on the specific points. The noble Lord, Lord Anderson, asked when the Bill was likely to be implemented in relation to all things considered around Brexit. As he acknowledges, the Bill provides the framework to impose sanctions, and under the Bill will sit a series of regulations that will put specific sanctions regimes into place. This will be done in accordance with the timetable of Brexit. He also asked about the implementation period, which we will have to take into account. As some of the specifics come on board on this, I shall share them with your Lordships’ House. He also asked about the procedure for listing individuals. The sanctions regulations will be set out, and the activities targeted by sanctions. If the Minister concerned has sufficient evidence to meet the thresholds in the Bill, they can place a person on an administrative list of designated persons to whom sanctions apply. That list will also be made public.
The noble Lord, Lord Anderson, and my noble friend Lord Faulks asked about encouraging others. As I have said during the Bill, when it comes to sanctions generally—and specifically on this clause—I can assure them that the UK will continue to play a leading and constructive role. As such, we will continue to work with all our international partners to achieve the maximum consensus possible on issues of concern to the UK, including those in these clauses.
I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, and her team for her engagement on this Bill. She asked specifically about the reports and their frequency. They will be made annually, and the report to Parliament will also be laid before Parliament as well.
The noble Lord, Lord Hain, raised important issues around South Africa and the SRA’s withdrawal of the registration around Hogan Lovells. I have listened, as I always do, to his various contributions very carefully, and shall ensure that his concerns are relayed to the relevant departments and authorities.
The noble Lord, Lord Pannick, asked whether the Minister can confirm whether safeguards could apply on HR sanctions. I am always mindful when he asks questions because he knows the answer already, and I am pleased to answer very shortly and succinctly—yes, they will.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
Moved by
That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment 4.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, this amendment relates to the important area of enforcing trade sanctions on board ships outside of UK territorial waters. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Collins, has an amendment in this respect, and I am cognisant that the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee has expressed some concerns. I assure him and your Lordships’ House that I commit to respond to the committee in writing. In the meantime, I hope that I can reassure noble Lords about the necessity and appropriateness of these powers.
In a moment, I will turn to the specific issues which the committee has raised. I want to make it clear from the outset that these powers are needed to address exceptional and potentially dangerous situations in which goods sanctioned by the UK are being transported to or from a sanctioned country in international and foreign waters; to ensure adherence to the standards set out in the relevant UN Security Council resolutions; and to provide protection against the transportation of dangerous and harmful goods in international waters—strengthening our ability to counter foreign policy and national security threats via the enforcement of sanctions regimes. Especially in light of recent events, noble Lords will appreciate that it is both necessary and important for the UK to have such powers and that is why we have sought to include these clauses.
Amendment 11 would enable UK officials to board and search ships where there are reasonable grounds to suspect that the ship is carrying sanctioned goods or technology. Amendment 12 also allows these powers to be exercised in circumstances where Amendment 11 does not apply but where there are reasonable grounds to suspect that the ship is carrying goods that would be sanctioned if there were a UK link. The powers could be exercised against British ships in both foreign and international waters, and against foreign and stateless ships in international waters. These clauses would also allow officials to seize goods that are being dealt with in contravention, or deemed contravention, of sanctions regulations.
Amendment 18 would allow the procedures for dealing with goods once seized to be set out in regulations. We expect these powers to be exercised, for example, in circumstances where the UK is aware that a ship is carrying goods such as components of chemical weapons, military materials heading towards a conflict zone in breach of an arms embargo, or even illicit nuclear materials heading towards a sanctioned state.
The clauses contain important safeguards limiting the use of these powers. The Bill makes it clear that there must be reasonable grounds to suspect that the ship in question is carrying sanctioned goods before any action can be taken. Further, consent from a foreign state is required before these powers can be exercised in relation to a British ship in foreign waters. The powers may be exercised in relation to a foreign ship in international waters only with the authorisation of the Secretary of State, which may be given only in certain limited circumstances, thereby ensuring that these powers will be used only on foreign ships with either flag-state consent or under the authority of international law. Where there is no flag state, as in the case of a stateless ship, such safeguards are not required as the ship is not subject to the jurisdiction of, and protection from, any other state.
These powers are analogous to those contained in other provisions of domestic legislation. For example, Chapter 5 of the Policing and Crime Act 2017 allows for these same powers to be exercised in circumstances where there are reasonable grounds to suspect that an offence under the law of England and Wales is being committed on board a ship in international waters. We intend to confer these new powers on the same UK authorities which are already capable of exercising those existing powers, namely constables, NCA officers and customs officials. In addition, we intend to add commissioned officers of Her Majesty’s ships to that list, as we expect that the Navy is likely to be the authority best placed to exercise these powers in respect of ships in international waters. This is not a novel approach as such officers are, for example, already designated maritime enforcement officers under the Criminal Justice (International Co-operation) Act 1990.
I draw noble Lords’ attention to the fact that the various maritime enforcement powers contained in existing legislation go further in some respects. For example, they allow for the arrest and detention of persons on board the ship. The purpose of these powers is not to target individuals, but to ensure that we can prevent the improper transportation of goods to or from a sanctioned country. These maritime powers are both necessary and important because the UK has legal obligations to enforce sanctions regimes on board British ships whether these ships are in domestic waters or not, which these powers will allow us to do. The UK also has legal obligations to seize and dispose of UN-sanctioned goods; we will be able to meet those under these powers. The UN Security Council also calls on the UK to search foreign ships for such goods, and expects the same approach to be taken in relation to stateless ships. The powers contained in this clause will allow us to do this as well.
On the concerns raised by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee in particular, I will explain why these amendments provide for the powers to be set out in regulations. This mirrors the approach that has been taken to the sanctions Bill as a whole. The Bill sets out the framework to be applied in sanctions regulations. The purpose of these maritime powers is to enforce UK trade sanctions, and so they should be exercisable in relation to any country on which trade sanctions have been imposed by the United Kingdom. For the sake of clarity and accessibility, it makes sense for there to be one regulation per sanctions regime which sets out all the detail pertaining to that regime, and that includes these powers.
However, it must be remembered that almost all the detail around these powers has been set out in the primary legislation already: the nature of the coercive powers that may be exercised, the circumstances in which these powers must be exercised, and the nature of the procedure that is to be followed when goods have been seized under these powers. Ministers therefore have very little discretion about what can be set out in the regulations in relation to these powers. For this reason, we consider this approach to be appropriate. For the same reasons, we consider that there is no reason for any additional parliamentary scrutiny of sanctions regulations based on the inclusion of these powers in those regulations, beyond the parliamentary scrutiny already provided for in the Bill in relation to those regulations.
The Delegated Powers Committee has also raised concerns about the particular wording of Amendments 11 and 12 and about whether the powers set out there are a non-exhaustive list. I reassure noble Lords that there is no intention to exercise any coercive powers that are not explicitly set out in Amendments 11 and 12. Indeed, if the intention was to have additional powers to take any other coercive action of the sort provided for in these amendments, one would expect the primary legislation to set out those additional powers, and it does not do so.
Turning briefly to the other amendments in this group, Amendments 4, 13, 23 and 30 are consequential on these clauses. Amendment 4 would ensure that the reference to supplemental provision, in Clause 1, includes these clauses. Amendment 13 ensures that the exercise of these powers in international and foreign waters is not limited by Clause 19 on extraterritorial application. Amendment 23 would ensure that the Bill does not affect powers exercised by the royal prerogative in relation to ships, and Amendment 30 would allow amendments to be made to the Customs and Excise Management Act to be able to properly enforce UK sanctions.
These maritime powers are necessary and important to ensure that we can take steps against the transportation of dangerous and harmful goods in international waters. Their inclusion in the Bill is an important step in enhancing the integrity and impact of sanctions regimes. I beg to move.
Lord Collins of Highbury
My Lords, I read the report of the Delegated Powers Committee on Friday and thought that I needed to act immediately, because I wanted to ensure that this House had the opportunity to fully debate its implications. I welcome what the Minister said and his commitment to respond fully to the committee’s report.
With regard to the powers, one of the biggest concerns at Second Reading in this House, through to Committee, has been the power grab—the concept of legislation being made by regulation, which seems to be expanding the whole time. I was particularly concerned about Clause 4 and how its powers appear not to be limited. I know that we have safeguards in the Bill, and I thank the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, who is not in his place, for moving substantial amendments, which the Government listened to, on how you can confine and constrain the powers that are needed. We know that at some time in the future, a Government will simply look at what the law gives them power to do and use it, because it could apply in different circumstances. Therefore I was responding in particular to Clause 4 and the committee’s report. I hear what the Minister said about the safeguards and the constraints on Ministers in making regulations, and I hope that other noble Lords will be satisfied with the response. At this stage, I am.
Lord Pannick
I am very disappointed—at other noble Lords are—at the approach of the Government. All these points were fully debated at Second Reading, in Committee and on Report, and the constant theme across the House was that it was vital to constrain the powers that Ministers were giving themselves in relation to the Bill. The Minister was very receptive to those concerns and accepted a number of amendments, and it is therefore very disappointing that at this very late stage we see again the same vice. So I share the disappointment and regret that, given the stage we are at, it is too late to do anything about it. But I hope that the Minister will take back to his department our concern and the promise—it is not a threat—that, if similar powers are put before us in another Bill, no doubt noble Lords will have more to say about it.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their comments on this amendment and, of course, I have noted what all noble Lords said and the concerns they expressed. Let me assure them once again—I mention in particular the noble Baroness, who mentioned Amendments 11 and 12—that I will address specifically the powers of the Minister, and give the assurance once again that a detailed response will be provided to the Delegated Powers Committee. I am seeking to ensure that this response will be provided before the Recess.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments 5 to 8.
“(6A) In this Act any reference to a gross violation of human rights is to conduct which—
(a) constitutes, or
(b) is connected with,
the commission of a gross human rights abuse or violation; and whether conduct constitutes or is connected with the commission of such an abuse or violation is to be determined in accordance with section 241A of the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002.”
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments 9 and 10.
“( ) Regulations—
(a) may create criminal offences for the purposes of the enforcement of prohibitions or requirements mentioned in subsection (2)(a) or (b) or for the purposes of preventing such prohibitions or requirements from being circumvented, and
(b) may include provision dealing with matters relating to any offences created for such purposes by regulations (including provision that creates defences).
( ) Regulations may not provide for an offence under regulations to be punishable with imprisonment for a period exceeding—
(a) in the case of conviction on indictment, 10 years;
(b) in the case of summary conviction—
(i) in relation to England and Wales, 12 months or, in relation to offences committed before section 154(1) of the Criminal Justice Act 2003 comes into force, 6 months;
(ii) in relation to Scotland, 12 months;
(iii) in relation to Northern Ireland, 6 months.”
“Report in respect of offences in regulations
(1) In this section “relevant regulations” means regulations under section 1 which create any offence for the purposes of—
(a) the enforcement of any prohibitions or requirements imposed by or under regulations under section 1, or
(b) preventing any such prohibitions or requirements from being circumvented.
(2) The appropriate Minister making any relevant regulations (“the Minister”) must at the required time lay before Parliament a report which—
(a) specifies the offences created by the regulations, indicating the prohibitions or requirements to which those offences relate,
(b) states that the Minister considers that there are good reasons for those prohibitions or requirements to be enforceable by criminal proceedings and explains why the Minister is of that opinion, and
(c) in the case of any of those offences which are punishable with imprisonment—
(i) states the maximum terms of imprisonment that apply to those offences,
(ii) states that the Minister considers that there are good reasons for those maximum terms, and
(iii) explains why the Minister is of that opinion.
(3) Subsection (4) applies where an offence created by the regulations relates to a particular prohibition or requirement and the Minister considers that a good reason—
(a) for that prohibition or requirement to be enforceable by criminal proceedings, or
(b) for a particular maximum term of imprisonment to apply to that offence,
is consistency with another enactment relating to the enforcement of a similar prohibition or requirement.
(4) The report must identify that other enactment.
(5) In subsection (3) “another enactment” means any provision of or made under an Act, other than a provision of the regulations to which the report relates.
(6) In subsection (2) “the required time” means—
(a) in the case of regulations contained in a statutory instrument which is laid before Parliament after being made, the same time as the instrument is laid before Parliament;
(b) in the case of regulations contained in a statutory instrument a draft of which is laid before Parliament, the same time as the draft is laid.
(7) This section applies to regulations which amend other regulations under section 1 so as to create an offence as it applies to regulations which otherwise create an offence.”
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, we now come to the important issue of criminal offences. This group of amendments would allow powers in the Bill to be used to create criminal offences and penalties in regulations for both sanctions and money laundering breaches, subject to new safeguards.
I say at the outset that I recognise that your Lordships’ House had serious concerns about the inclusion of these powers, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, in particular, remains very concerned. I assure all noble Lords that once the Bill left your Lordships’ House we continued to listen to those concerns and have sought to address them. That is why these amendments also include an important new procedural safeguard of a requirement to report to Parliament, meaning that the Government have to inform Parliament specifically about the use of the powers to create criminal offences in secondary legislation. This is intended to enable Parliament to be better informed about the use of these powers and to be able to properly hold the Minister to account.
I shall go through each of the amendments in more detail. Amendments 9 and 21 restore the ability to provide for criminal offences and penalties in sanctions and money laundering regulations. In tabling these amendments, I acknowledge your Lordships’ recognition of the importance of rigorous anti-money laundering and sanctions regimes. In order to ensure the robustness of future sanctions and anti-money laundering regulations, corresponding powers to create criminal offences for breaches of those future regimes are necessary so as to preserve the ability of future Governments to impose effective and dissuasive sanctions for breaches of regulations.
I recognise that some in your Lordships’ House had concerns about the scope of these powers when the Bill was first introduced. These amendments address those concerns through additional safeguards, which must be met before the powers can be used. When I come to Amendments 31, 32 and 34, I shall elaborate upon the safeguards, which the Government have discussed with noble Lords since the Bill’s passage through this House.
The amendments restore our ability to enforce sanctions. As noble Lords are aware, sanctions are used to prevent serious threats to national and international peace and security. It is therefore right that breach of them is a criminal offence, and it is also right that penalties should be set at a level that acts as a proper deterrent for these serious crimes. The Bill gives us the ability to set penalties at up to 10 years’ imprisonment, but that does not mean that we will set them at the maximum in every case.
In respect of trade sanctions, offences for breaches of prohibitions made under the Export Control Act 2002 all have maximum penalties of 10 years’ imprisonment. That does not apply to the trade sanction prohibitions created under the European Communities Act 1972, which are capped at two years’ imprisonment, despite the breaches being just as serious a matter. This Bill will enable us to remedy that disparity by harmonising maximum penalties for breaches of all trade sanctions at 10 years.
Currently, breaches of financial sanctions can be punished by up to seven years’ imprisonment, and we plan to continue to set penalties at this level for financial sanctions. We also plan for breaches of other sanctions, such as transport sanctions, to have penalties set to match this level. There will also be offences, such as the failure to provide information when required to do so by law, that require lesser penalties, such as up to two years’ imprisonment, and we do not plan to increase penalties in those areas either.
I have set out in previous debates how the enforceability of new regulations would be seriously weakened without the power to create criminal offences, and how it is not unusual for requirements in delegated legislation to be enforced using criminal penalties. I now turn to the procedural safeguards we have introduced, which I hope will constitute sufficient reassurance to noble Lords who have expressed concerns.
Amendments 10, 25 and 32 introduce the important safeguard of requiring the Government to lay a report before Parliament whenever criminal offences are created or amended in sanctions regulations made under Clause 1 or in anti-money laundering regulations made under Clause 43. The amendments require the report to be laid at the same time as the regulations are laid or when the draft statutory instrument containing the relevant regulations is laid, depending on which parliamentary procedure is used. The report will facilitate effective parliamentary scrutiny of future use of criminal offences in sanctions regulations and goes further than the status quo in enabling Parliament to scrutinise the creation of criminal offences through sanctions or money laundering regulations.
The amendment specifies what elements should be included in these reports. Specifically, this will include: first, the details of the offences that have been created and the requirements to which they refer; secondly, the good reasons why a breach of these requirements should be enforced via criminal offences; thirdly, the maximum prison terms for any offences created which are punishable by imprisonment; and, fourthly, the reasons why those maximum terms have been set at the level they have. I trust noble Lords will agree that these reports will provide increased transparency as to the reasons for creating future criminal offences, and so give both Houses of Parliament a new and solid basis for holding the Government to account on the use of these powers when debating regulations made under the Bill. Nevertheless, the Government remain very aware that creating criminal offences and setting penalties in regulations is a serious matter and not one to be undertaken lightly. We hope that these amendments address that.
I would also like to take this opportunity to assure your Lordships’ House that the requirement contained in Amendment 25—for a Minister, when for whatever reason a report is not laid on time, to make a statement about that failure to the House—does not in any way circumvent the obligation to make the statement. It is an additional requirement, meant to create a further obligation to Parliament that if, for example, there has been some administrative error in publishing a statement, Ministers must provide an explanation to Parliament for that failure.
Amendment 31 is consequential to new paragraph 20A inserted by Amendment 32. The envisaged paragraph 20A(1) of Schedule 2 clarifies the scope of potential offences created for the purposes of the enforcement of requirements imposed by or under regulations under Clause 43.
Amendment 32 also makes the power to create criminal offences in money laundering regulations subject to the requirement for a report to Parliament along the same lines as the amendments for Part 1 of the Bill. This amendment clarifies that the scope of the power for creating future offences is restricted to offences for the purposes of enforcing future anti-money laundering regulations. It is both necessary and, importantly, proportionate.
Amendment 34 ensures that references made to regulations made under Clause 43, with respect to paragraph 15 of Schedule 2, and requirements imposed by regulations made under Clause 43, with respect to paragraph 20A of Schedule 2, also include reference to or requirements imposed by the Money Laundering Regulations 2017. This amendment ensures that new money laundering offences can be created by amending the Money Laundering Regulations 2017. It will therefore enable the Government to create new offences in order to respond, for example, to emerging risks identified by the national risk assessment of money laundering and terrorist financing, which was published in October of last year, or in response to the ongoing review by the Financial Action Task Force of the UK’s anti-money laundering and counterterrorist finance regime. I beg to move.
Lord Pannick
My Lords, in the early stages of this Bill, my noble and learned friend Lord Judge, who is not in his place, expressed the concerns that many of us felt about Ministers being given a power to create new criminal offences and, indeed, to specify maximum sentences. I am very pleased that the Government have recognised a need for safeguards in this context. This is an exceptional circumstance, and I very much hope that the Government will not see this as a precedent to be used in other contexts.
Baroness Northover
My Lords, the potential creation of new criminal offences by Ministers was of course the subject of major debate in the Lords, and the Government were defeated. It is the Government’s compromise that we are considering here. I know that the Government and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, spent a great deal of time on this, as did my noble friend Lady Bowles. Noble Lords did not quite get to where they would have liked, but I know that they thought progress had been made. We are therefore content to accept the position that we have reached. However, the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, makes an important point about this not being a precedent.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I thank the noble Lord and the noble Baroness who have spoken. When this issue left your Lordships’ House, I emphasised and assured noble Lords that we would continue to work, particularly, with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, and officials continue to do so. Every time I saw him in a Division Lobby or outside it—often he was going in the opposite direction, but we will park that for a moment—he reassured me that progress was being made, and this is the culmination of that. I thank noble Lords for their support.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment 11.
“Enforcement: goods etc on ships
(1) The provision that may be made by virtue of section 17(2) (enforcement of prohibitions or requirements) includes provision as to the powers and duties of prescribed persons in relation to—
(a) British ships in foreign waters or international waters,
(b) ships without nationality in international waters, and
(c) foreign ships in international waters.
(2) Regulations may make provision by virtue of this section only for the purpose of enforcing relevant prohibitions or requirements.
(3) A prohibition or requirement is a “relevant prohibition or requirement” for the purposes of this section if it is—
(a) a prohibition or requirement specified by the regulations which is imposed by regulations for a purpose mentioned in any of paragraphs 2 to 7, 15(a), (b) or (c) or 16(a) of Schedule 1, or
(b) a prohibition or requirement imposed by a condition of a licence or direction issued by virtue of section 15 in relation to a prohibition or requirement mentioned in paragraph (a).
(4) The powers that may be conferred by virtue of this section include powers to—
(a) stop a ship;
(b) board a ship;
(c) require any person found on a ship boarded by virtue of this section to provide information or produce documents;
(d) inspect and copy such documents or information;
(e) stop any person found on such a ship and search that person for—
(i) prohibited goods, or
(ii) any thing that might be used to cause physical injury or damage to property or to endanger the safety of any ship;
(f) search a ship boarded by virtue of this section, or any thing found on such a ship (including cargo), for prohibited goods;
(g) seize goods found on a ship, in any thing found on a ship, or on any person found on a ship (but see subsection (8));
(h) for the purpose of exercising a power mentioned in paragraph (e), (f) or (g), require a ship to be taken to, and remain in, a port or anchorage in the United Kingdom or any other country willing to receive it.
(5) Regulations that confer a power mentioned in subsection (4)(a) to (f) or (h) must provide that a person may not exercise the power in relation to a ship unless the person has reasonable grounds to suspect that the ship is carrying prohibited goods (and the regulations need not require the person to have reasonable grounds to suspect that an offence is being or has been committed).
(6) Regulations that confer a power mentioned in subsection (4)(e)(i) or (f) must provide that the power may be exercised only to the extent reasonably required for the purpose of discovering prohibited goods.
(7) Regulations that confer a power mentioned in subsection (4)(e)(ii) on a person (“the officer”) may permit the search of a person only where the officer has reasonable grounds to believe that that person might use a thing in a way mentioned in subsection (4)(e)(ii).
(8) Regulations that confer a power mentioned in subsection (4)(g) on a person—
(a) must provide for the power to be exercisable on a ship only where that person is lawfully on the ship (whether in exercise of powers conferred by virtue of this section or otherwise), and
(b) may permit the seizure only of—
(i) goods which that person has reasonable grounds to suspect are prohibited goods, or
(ii) things within subsection (4)(e)(ii).
(9) Regulations that confer a power on a person by virtue of this section may authorise that person to use reasonable force, if necessary, in the exercise of the power.
(10) Regulations that confer a power by virtue of this section must provide that—
(a) the power may be exercised in relation to a British ship in foreign waters only with the authority of the Secretary of State, and
(b) in relation to foreign waters other than the sea and other waters within the seaward limits of the territorial sea adjacent to any relevant British possession, the Secretary of State may give authority only if the State in whose waters the power would be exercised consents to the exercise of the power.
(11) Regulations that confer a power by virtue of this section must provide that—
(a) the power may be exercised in relation to a foreign ship only with the authority of the Secretary of State, and
(b) the Secretary of State may give authority only if—
(i) the home state has requested the assistance of the United Kingdom for the purpose of enforcing relevant prohibitions or requirements,
(ii) the home state has authorised the United Kingdom to act for that purpose, or
(iii) the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea 1982 (Cmnd 8941) or a UN Security Council Resolution otherwise permits the exercise of the powers in relation to the ship.
(12) The reference in subsection (11) to the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea includes a reference to any modifications of that Convention agreed after the passing of this Act that have entered into force in relation to the United Kingdom.
(13) In this section—
“arrangements” includes any agreement, understanding, scheme, transaction or series of transactions (whether or not legally enforceable);
“British ship” means a ship falling within paragraph (a), (c), (d) or (e) of section 7(12);
“foreign ship” means a ship which—
(a) is registered in a State other than the United Kingdom, or
(b) is not so registered but is entitled to fly the flag of a State other than the United Kingdom;
“foreign waters” means the sea and other waters within the seaward limits of the territorial sea adjacent to any relevant British possession or State other than the United Kingdom;
“goods” includes technology within the meaning of Schedule 1 (see paragraph 36 of that Schedule);
“home state”, in relation to a foreign ship, means—
(a) the State in which the ship is registered, or
(b) the State whose flag the ship is otherwise entitled to fly; “international waters” means waters beyond the territorial sea of the United Kingdom or of any other State or relevant British possession;
“prohibited goods” means goods which have been, or are being, dealt with in contravention of a relevant prohibition or requirement (see subsection (3));
“regulations” means regulations under section 1;
“relevant British possession” has the same meaning as in section 7 (see subsection (14) of that section);
“ship” has the same meaning as in section 7 (see subsection (14) of that section);
“ship without nationality” means a ship which—
(a) is not registered in, or otherwise entitled to fly the flag of, any State or relevant British possession, or
(b) sails under the flags of two or more States or relevant British possessions, or under the flags of a State and relevant British possession, using them according to convenience.
(14) In the definition of “prohibited goods” in subsection (13), the reference to goods dealt with in contravention of a relevant prohibition or requirement includes a reference to a case where—
(a) arrangements relating to goods have been entered into that have not been fully implemented, and
(b) if those arrangements were to be fully implemented, the goods would be dealt with in contravention of that prohibition or requirement.”
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment 12.
“Goods etc on ships: non-UK conduct
(1) Regulations may make provision conferring on prescribed persons powers exercisable—
(a) in relation to—
(i) British ships in foreign waters or international waters,
(ii) ships without nationality in international waters, and
(iii) foreign ships in international waters,
(b) for the purpose of—
(i) investigating the suspected carriage of relevant goods on such ships, or
(ii) preventing the continued carriage on such ships of goods suspected to be relevant goods.
(2) The powers that may be conferred by virtue of this section include powers to—
(a) stop a ship;
(b) board a ship;
(c) require any person found on a ship boarded by virtue of this section to provide information or produce documents;
(d) inspect and copy such documents or information;
(e) stop any person found on such a ship and search that person for—
(i) relevant goods, or
(ii) any thing that might be used to cause physical injury or damage to property or to endanger the safety of any ship;
(f) search a ship boarded by virtue of this section, or any thing found on such a ship (including cargo), for relevant goods;
(g) seize goods found on a ship, in any thing found on a ship, or on any person found on a ship (but see subsection (6));
(h) for the purpose of exercising a power mentioned in paragraph (e), (f) or (g), require a ship to be taken to, and remain in, a port or anchorage in the United Kingdom or any other country willing to receive it.
(3) Regulations that confer a power mentioned in subsection (2)(a) to (f) or (h) must provide that a person may not exercise the power in relation to a ship unless the person has reasonable grounds to suspect that the ship is carrying relevant goods.
(4) Regulations that confer a power mentioned in subsection (2)(e)(i) or (f) must provide that the power may be exercised only to the extent reasonably required for the purpose of discovering relevant goods.
(5) Regulations that confer a power mentioned in subsection (2)(e)(ii) on a person (“the officer”) may permit the search of a person only where the officer has reasonable grounds to believe that that person might use a thing in a way mentioned in subsection (2)(e)(ii).
(6) Regulations that confer a power mentioned in subsection (2)(g) on a person—
(a) must provide for the power to be exercisable on a ship only where that person is lawfully on the ship (whether in exercise of powers conferred by virtue of this section or otherwise), and
(b) may permit the seizure only of—
(i) goods which that person has reasonable grounds to suspect are relevant goods, or
(ii) things within subsection (2)(e)(ii).
(7) Regulations that confer a power on a person by virtue of this section may authorise that person to use reasonable force, if necessary, in the exercise of the power.
(8) Regulations that confer a power by virtue of this section must provide that—
(a) the power may be exercised in relation to a British ship in foreign waters only with the authority of the Secretary of State, and
(b) in relation to foreign waters other than the sea and other waters within the seaward limits of the territorial sea adjacent to any relevant British possession, the Secretary of State may give authority only if the State in whose waters the power would be exercised consents to the exercise of the power.
(9) Regulations that confer a power by virtue of this section must provide that—
(a) the power may be exercised in relation to a foreign ship only with the authority of the Secretary of State, and
(b) the Secretary of State may give authority only if—
(i) the home state has requested the assistance of the United Kingdom for a purpose mentioned in subsection (1)(b),
(ii) the home state has authorised the United Kingdom to act for such a purpose, or
(iii) the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea 1982 (Cmnd 8941) or a UN Security Council Resolution otherwise permits the exercise of the powers in relation to the ship.
(10) The reference in subsection (9) to the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea includes a reference to any modifications of that Convention agreed after the passing of this Act that have entered into force in relation to the United Kingdom.
(11) In this section—
“regulations” means regulations under section 1;
“relevant goods” means goods in relation to which relevant non-UK conduct is occurring or has occurred;
“relevant non-UK conduct” means conduct outside the United Kingdom by a person other than a United Kingdom person that would constitute a contravention of a relevant prohibition or requirement if the conduct had been—
(a) in the United Kingdom, or
(b) by a United Kingdom person;
“relevant prohibition or requirement” has the same meaning as in section (Enforcement: goods etc on ships) (see subsection (3) of that section);
“United Kingdom person” has the same meaning as in section 18 (see subsection (2) of that section).
(12) In the definition of “relevant non-UK conduct” in subsection (11), the reference to conduct that would constitute a contravention of a relevant prohibition or requirement if the conduct had been in the United Kingdom or by a United Kingdom person includes a reference to a case where—
(a) arrangements relating to goods have been entered into that have not been fully implemented, and
(b) if those arrangements were to be fully implemented (and if the conduct had been in the United Kingdom or by a United Kingdom person) the goods would be dealt with in contravention of that prohibition or requirement.
(13) In this section, the following expressions have the same meaning as in section (Enforcement: goods etc on ships)—
“arrangements”,
“British ship”,
“foreign ship”,
“foreign waters”,
“goods”,
“home state”,
“international waters”,
“relevant British possession”,
“ship”, and
“ship without nationality”.”
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments 13 to 21.
“( ) Nothing in this section limits the provision that may be made in regulations under section 1 by virtue of section (Enforcement: goods etc on ships) or (Goods etc on ships: non-UK conduct).”
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment 22.
“Public registers of beneficial ownership of companies registered in British Overseas Territories
(1) For the purposes of the detection, investigation or prevention of money laundering, the Secretary of State must provide all reasonable assistance to the governments of the British Overseas Territories to enable each of those governments to establish a publicly accessible register of the beneficial ownership of companies registered in each government’s jurisdiction.
(2) The Secretary of State must, no later than 31 December 2020, prepare a draft Order in Council requiring the government of any British Overseas Territory that has not introduced a publicly accessible register of the beneficial ownership of companies within its jurisdiction to do so.
(3) The draft Order in Council under subsection (2) must set out the form that the register must take.
(4) If an Order in Council contains requirements of a kind mentioned in subsection (2)—
(a) it must be laid before Parliament after being made, and
(b) if not approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament before the end of 28 days beginning with the day on which it is made, it ceases to have effect at the end of that period (but without that affecting the power to make a new Order under this section).
(5) In calculating a period of 28 days for the purposes of subsection (4), no account is to be taken of any time during which Parliament is dissolved or prorogued or during which both Houses are adjourned for more than four days.
(6) For the purposes of this section, “British Overseas Territories” means a territory listed in Schedule 6 of the British Nationality Act 1981.
(7) For the purposes of this section, “a publicly accessible register of the beneficial ownership of companies” means a register which, in the opinion of the Secretary of State, provides information broadly equivalent to that available in accordance with the provisions of Part 21A of the Companies Act 2006.”
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, Amendment 22 would put a duty on the Government to provide all reasonable assistance to our overseas territories to help them set up public registers of company beneficial ownership by 31 December 2020. If they do not do so, the amendment would require the Secretary of State to prepare a draft Order in Council requiring the Government of the overseas territories to introduce such registers.
Noble Lords are aware that the issue of the register of beneficial ownership was debated extensively in your Lordships’ House. I welcomed the insight and the expertise and, while there were differences of views, there was a robust debate. In this regard, the Government tabled on Report in the other place a package of amendments that sought to enhance the existing measures on beneficial ownership in the overseas territories but stopped short of the preparation of any legislation for the overseas territories ahead of the introduction of a public register as an international standard. As is his prerogative, Mr Speaker did not, however, select these amendments for debate. Therefore, the Government in the other place listened to the strength of feeling on this issue and accepted that it was the overwhelming view of the other place that the overseas territories should take steps to put public registers in place ahead of them becoming international standard as set by the Financial Action Task Force. Therefore, the Government did not oppose the new clause tabled by the right honourable Member for Sutton Coldfield and the right honourable Member for Barking.
Given the views expressed in the other place and the fact that we respect the will of Parliament, the Government do not now propose to table any new amendments. However, I would, nevertheless, like to make a number of points on this issue, not least as Minister for the Overseas Territories. I want to make it clear from the outset that we would have preferred a different approach to this question, as evidenced by the amendments we had tabled in the other place and my response to this debate in your Lordships’ House. Our approach has always been, and remains, as a priority to work consensually, constructively and collaboratively, with the overseas territories. Indeed, we have established strong channels with the overseas territories.
Let me be absolutely clear: the overseas territories are British, but they are separate jurisdictions with their own democratically elected Governments, responsible for their own fiscal matters and are not represented in this Parliament. We have legislated for them without their consent only in exceptional circumstances, for example to decriminalise homosexuality in certain territories to ensure that they were compliant with international human rights obligations. By contrast, financial services are an area of domestic responsibility for territory Governments, where they surpass—an important point to remember—international standards in the context of beneficial ownership. Legislating for these jurisdictions without their consent in this field effectively disenfranchises their elected representatives.
We are also fully cognisant of the territories’ concerns that the economic impact of imposing public registers on them will be significant—and these are not under normal circumstances. As noble Lords know, the British Virgin Islands, Anguilla and the Turks and Caicos Islands are still recovering from the two unprecedented category 5 hurricanes of last September. In the British Virgin Islands, nine out of 20 schools still remain closed and are accommodating their students in tents. The tourism industry has experienced a drop of 50% and is only now starting to recover. There remains a real risk that this will destabilise the reconstruction efforts of the hurricane affected territories, and all of this shortly before the next hurricane season begins in June. Accordingly, our preference would have been not to legislate in this manner without the territories’ consent, and let me assure noble Lords that our aim remains to work consensually and collaboratively with them to achieve the best possible outcome following the amendment.
As the reaction of the territories and their leaders has demonstrated, legislating for them without their consent risks damaging not only our long-standing constitutional arrangements respecting their autonomy but also our very proactive, positive and progressive relations with the overseas territories. Let me assure noble Lords that I have held a number of meetings with leaders and their London-based representatives since our debates at Report stage, and I have reaffirmed the importance that the United Kingdom attaches to our relationship with their jurisdictions. Equally, I would place on the record our gratitude to the overseas territories and to the Crown dependencies for the work that they have undertaken to implement the bilateral arrangements on the exchange of beneficial ownership information we concluded with them in 2016. In a relatively short timeframe, they have passed new primary legislation and delivered technological improvements to comply with the terms of these arrangements.
All Crown dependencies have central registers in place. Of the seven overseas territories with financial centres, Bermuda, the British Virgin Islands, the Cayman Islands, Gibraltar and the Turks and Caicos Islands already have central registers or similarly effective systems in place. Montserrat has also committed to establishing a public register, and we have recently signed a memorandum of understanding with Anguilla to fund its electronic search platform. In the case of Anguilla, the British Virgin Islands and the Turks and Caicos Islands, progress has been made notwithstanding some of the most challenging circumstances caused by last year’s hurricanes.
These arrangements, which provide UK law enforcement authorities, on request, with access to beneficial ownership information within 24 hours and within one hour in urgent cases, are already bearing fruit. As of 8 February, they had been used more than 70 times and the information obtained by UK law enforcement authorities as a result has been used to enhance intelligence leads and to support ongoing criminal investigations into illicit finance. It is important that we continue to work with the overseas territories and the Crown dependencies to implement fully these arrangements and, where necessary, to make improvements to the mechanisms for the exchange of information. We also have the statutory review of these arrangements that will report to Parliament by July 2019, and I remain confident that that will provide further evidence to all concerned of the benefits this provides to law enforcement authorities.
We should be clear that the arrangements go beyond the current international standards set by the Financial Action Task Force; these do not yet require private, let alone public, registers, reflecting a lack of international consensus in this important area. Imposing public registers on the overseas territories now carries with it the risk of a flight of business from them to other less regulated jurisdictions where our law enforcement authorities would not have the same level of access to beneficial ownership information as they do under the existing arrangements.
The Government have been consistently clear about their desire for public registers to become the global standard. Let us also be clear that the overseas territories do not oppose this, once there is an international standard. As I set out in my Written Ministerial Statement on 1 May, the Government will use their best endeavours, diplomatically and with international partners, to promote public registers of company beneficial ownership as the global standard by 2023. We would also expect the Crown dependencies to adopt public registers in that event.
I should also like to take this opportunity to place on record my deep concern about some of the intemperate language that was used in the other place about our overseas territories. References to “slave labour” and “money will go to where it is darkest” are liable to be misconstrued and are quite unacceptable in this context.
I would also like to use this opportunity to rebut the widely held misconceptions about the overseas territories. They are important financial centres for investors around the world. They have successful industries because they comply with regulatory standards and have taken significant steps on transparency. All overseas territories with financial centres have committed to greater tax transparency, by adopting the new global OECD standard for the automatic exchange between jurisdictions of taxpayer financial account information, and have started to exchange this information. In addition, HMRC has received data since September 2016 on accounts held in the overseas territories by UK taxpayers. Taken together, these measures are an important tool in combating tax evasion, and we welcome the co-operation and collaboration that we have received from both the overseas territories and the Crown dependencies in this area.
I thank noble Lords for their indulgence in allowing me to put on record the Government’s position and our thoughts on where we currently are. The overseas territories are an important part of what constitutes Britain today. However, notwithstanding the arguments I have made, the other place has sought to change the basis. Let me reiterate, with the words with which I started, that the Government will ultimately respect the will of Parliament on this issue and will now work constructively and collaboratively with the overseas territories towards the best possible outcomes. Let me assure noble Lords—and our overseas territories as well—that we will use our best endeavours and a supportive, constructive and collaborative approach in the international sphere to promote public registers of company beneficial ownership as the global standard, so that we can, as the overseas territories agree, achieve a level playing field in this area—a principle that we are all agreed on. I beg to move.
Amendment 22A (as an amendment to the Motion on Amendment 22)
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords for an extensive, well-reasoned, well-argued and expert debate in your Lordships’ House. I am grateful in particular to my noble friend Lord Naseby, who presented a case for the overseas territories which I empathise with. Noble Lords who were in the Chamber when I opened this debate would have heard the points that I made. I will respond to a few specific points and questions raised, but I want first to set the record straight. First and foremost, the Government’s position is what it was when the Bill left your Lordships’ House. As the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, said, the Government defeated the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Stern. That was done because of reasoned debate and expert insight, which has been reflected in your Lordships’ House again today.
As my noble friend Lord Hunt said, my noble friend Lord Naseby has allowed us all an opportunity again to demonstrate the wisdom, insight and expertise your Lordships have, but the point of principle highlighted by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown, remains: notwithstanding the valuable discourse that we have had, the House of Commons has sought to vote otherwise. In that regard, I want to clarify a few points.
My noble friend Lord Northbrook mentioned that it was a government amendment. Of course, it was not; it was tabled from the government Benches—it was a joint amendment. In light of the support that the amendment had gathered, the Government decided not to oppose it. My noble friend Lord Naseby referred to the Government’s amendment being tabled late in the day. Let me assure my noble friends and your Lordships’ House that we had been in extensive negotiations with many Members of Parliament, including those of other parties and most notably the Scottish National Party, on the important issues of the constitution and about this Parliament voting on something that would apply to parliaments that did not have a say in the debate taking place—a point well made by the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull. We were trying to find a way forward that respected both the drive for transparency, which many noble Lords have raised today, and the constitutional settlement with the overseas territories and Crown dependencies. It was also important that we continued to do this to reach the cross-party consensus that was being sought. We brought further amendments forward on 30 April and brought that to the attention of the House to find that consensus. That is why conversations were still ongoing throughout that morning. The amendment we tabled was taken as in order but, as I said in my opening remarks, it was not then debated or taken for debate by the Speaker of the House of Commons.
That said, we have had an extensive debate. The noble Lord, Lord Anderson, who I see is not in his place as such, asked for comment on the Foreign Affairs Committee’s report. We are looking at that report, which was issued this morning, carefully but the Prime Minister has made the general principle clear. I say to all noble Lords that there is not a difference between ourselves and the Governments of the overseas territories. Everyone wants to see us tackle illicit finance effectively. Let me assure the noble Lord, Lord Collins, that it remains a priority for this Government and that we will continue to take a leading role in this respect.
The noble Lord, Lord Beith, my noble friend Lord Naseby and my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay all touched on the important issues of the constitutional arguments. Our position in the light of the circumstances set out in the 2012 White Paper has not changed. We believe that the fundamental structure of our constitutional relationships is the right one. Of course, we retain the power to legislate directly and have done so, as I said in my opening remarks, but in this case we would prefer not to have done so without consent. However, as we have all heard, we are all in this situation since the decision taken by the House of Commons.
My noble and learned friend Lord Mackay raised how this provision will come into force. As I always do, I listened carefully to his insight on this matter and I can confirm that it will not come into force through Royal Assent; it will come into force and commence by regulations. We need to establish the detail, as he said, but I listened carefully to the points he raised in this respect.
My noble friend Lord Faulks asked about the next Bill and I again pay tribute to his efforts in this regard. Let me assure him once again that we have committed to bring forward legislation early in the next Session on the important issue, which he has raised during debate on this Bill, of the register of overseas companies that own UK property. We anticipate that that register will be ready for use in 2021.
The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, pointed to other jurisdictions such as Gibraltar. At this point, I acknowledge the contributions of my noble friend Lord Naseby and other noble friends, and noble Lords across the Chamber, who acknowledged the efforts that our overseas territories have made. While I totally accept the principle highlighted by the noble Lord, Lord Collins, and the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, of the importance of transparency—of seeing that flow of illicit finance coming to an end—let us not forget that, in the UK, we have a public register. This is not a panacea to end this issue. It needs concerted action, which is why I have been vocal in my defence of the overseas territories and not just, as the noble Lord, Lord Beith, pointed out, because I am the Minister responsible. Genuinely, when we look at the track record from the overseas territories—the exchange of notes that are operational and which we are reporting back on, or the accessibility for tax and law enforcement agencies—those jurisdictions have been co-operating fully and effectively. That is why I, as the Minister responsible, made that robust defence of the overseas territories. Not only has progress been made; the overseas territories are ahead of the curve. There is just not a case for not doing something until the others catch up, as they are already fully co-operating.
Several noble Lords alluded to the EU list. Anguilla, Bermuda, the BVI, the Cayman Islands and all three Crown dependencies are not included on any list because they are deemed to have been holding back by the EU Code of Conduct Group. They have been put on lists and acknowledged for being co-operative jurisdictions. All our Crown dependencies and overseas territories with financial centres are already committed to global tax transparency standards, which we all agree on, and the commitments that they have made go beyond those. I say again for the record that there is no grey list. All the overseas territories, as the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, highlighted, have made great strides, ahead of many other jurisdictions, in ensuring that they adhere not to any international standard but to the principles of ensuring that they can address the fact that law authorities and tax authorities can access such registers.
That said, we are in a position where the other place has decided—on a cross-party basis in certain respects, as the noble Lord, Lord Collins, said—that it is its will to go forward with public registers for the overseas territories, and it is the Government’s position that we have accepted that point of the elected Chamber. In doing so, though, I assure my noble friend Lord Naseby and others who have spoken about the overseas territories that from a government perspective we will seek to ensure that we collaborate and co-operate fully and work with the overseas territories to ensure that we get the results we want. We do not want to disable the overseas territories and we do not want them to lose out, but there is a reality of decisions that this Parliament has taken, and they have implications. We need to ensure that we work effectively and collaboratively with those overseas territories to ensure that we can still sustain and strengthen their economies for years to come.
I put on record for my noble friend Lord Naseby that I am very grateful to him for once again allowing me to articulate the Government’s position and my position as the Minister responsible for the overseas territories. I am also grateful for, as I am sure my noble friend has acknowledged, the great and wise expertise that we have heard from around your Lordships’ House, demonstrating again the wise insight on this subject and many. However, mindful of the fact that the other place has decided to pursue the issue of public registers with the overseas territories, an amendment that the Government have now accepted, I hope that after listening to the debate my noble friend is minded to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Naseby
My Lords, those were fine words from the Minister, and we have heard fine words from my colleagues who have supported me this evening. I hope those fine words have some strength behind them. Many noble Lords will know that I have been in the two Houses for 44 years. I deeply respect the rights of the House of Commons, so it is not with an easy heart that I resist the temptation to test the views of this House.
I have reflected deeply on this. I am trusting my noble friend on the Front Bench to move this forward. As my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern said: justice for all—which means, in particular, justice for all the overseas territories. I shall watch, be vigilant and challenge, but on this occasion I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment 23.
“( ) Nothing in this Act affects any power exercisable in relation to ships by virtue of the prerogative of the Crown.”
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment 24.
“(3) Regulations under section 1 may amend the definition of “terrorist financing” in section 43(4) so as to remove any reference to a provision of regulations that is revoked by regulations under section 1.
(3A) Regulations under section 1 may amend the definition of “terrorist financing” in section 43(4) so as to add a reference to a provision of regulations under section 1 that contains an offence, but only if—
(a) each purpose of the regulations containing the offence, as stated under section 1(3), is compliance with a UN obligation or other international obligation, or
(b) paragraph (a) does not apply but the report under section 2 in respect of the regulations containing the offence indicates that, in the opinion of the appropriate Minister making those regulations, the carrying out of a purpose stated in those regulations under section 1(3) would further the prevention of terrorism in the United Kingdom or elsewhere.”
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I am sure the House willed that I move this formally but for good order I should speak to it, although I am sure I am not expressing the Deputy Speaker’s sentiments in any way.
This group contains the remainder of the amendments to the Bill made in the other place. Amendment 26 seeks to clarify the interaction of the powers in the sanctions Bill and the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill. It has been prompted by amendments to the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill tabled by the Government during its passage. Amendment 26 does not change the intent of the sanctions Bill, nor does it change the scope of the powers contained in the Bill. It makes clear that any restrictions in the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill on the modification of retained EU law do not prevent sanctions Bill powers being exercised as they were intended. The Government believe that the amendment is necessary to provide certainty and avoid any confusion about the interaction of the two Bills in this area.
Amendment 29 is a routine procedural amendment that removes the privilege amendment inserted in this House, which ensures that there are no amendments that would raise taxes or impose charges.
Amendment 24 makes changes to the ability to update the definition of terrorist financing, fulfilling a commitment that the Government made on Report in your Lordships’ House. It retains the ability to remove obsolete references from the definition, but restricts the ability to add new terrorist financing measures by way of sanctions regulations. Those new measures can now be added to the definition of terrorist financing only if the new measures are made either for the purpose of compliance with international obligations, or for the purpose of furthering the prevention of terrorism in the UK or elsewhere.
Noble Lords will be aware that Schedule 2 to this Bill, as already approved by your Lordships’ House, provides an express power permitting the Government to make anti-money laundering regulations that correspond or are similar to the money laundering regulations 2017, or to amend or revoke those regulations. These powers will enable the Government to update the UK’s anti-money laundering regime to reflect evolving international standards and address emerging risks.
Amendment 33 is also consequential on amendments to the EU withdrawal Bill, and confirms that these powers can be used once we leave the EU, in connection with the EU funds transfer regulation—which regulates payment service providers—and other EU-level legislation made under the fourth money laundering directive. This applies in particular to the existing EU list of high-risk third countries, in connection with which enhanced due diligence is required. This amendment provides legal certainty regarding the Government’s ability to update this legislation, which will be part of UK law, using the powers conferred through the Bill. This will ensure consistent treatment of the money laundering regulations 2017 and the closely interlinked legislation which also came into force last year. With those explanations, I beg to move.
Baroness Northover
I could say that I am going to test the opinion of the House, but I do not think that that would work. I just take the opportunity of this group to thank the Minister and the Bill team for their careful and constructive engagement on the Bill. Obviously, we would prefer that we were not having to take this legislation through, but if we leave the EU it will indeed be needed.
I also thank those on these Benches who have assisted on the Bill: my noble friends Lady Sheehan and Lord McNally and, especially on the anti-money laundering part, Lady Kramer and Lady Bowles, who single-handedly analysed and proposed restructuring of that part of the Bill and engaged with the Bill team and the Treasury, drawing on her experience as a former chair of the economics committee of the EU.
I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Collins, and his team, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, and the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, for their deep and constructive engagement.
As the Minister quickly discovered, although the subject matter of sanctions and anti-money laundering is not exactly controversial, the means of tackling it and the carryover into wider Brexit legislation in terms of powers taken meant that this was a forerunner to the EU withdrawal Bill. Above all, I thank the Minister and his team for their patience and engagement. Judging by the previous group, it sounds as though he still has much to do.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, and again put on record my thanks to her—and to the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, in particular, on the issue of money laundering. In the same way, I extend my thanks to the Labour Front Bench, particularly the noble Lord, Lord Collins, and others in your Lordships’ House.
As I said when the Bill passed from your Lordships’ House, we have seen co-operation and your Lordships at their best. I said right at the beginning that we were in listening mode, and I think that has been reflected during the course of the Bill in both your Lordships’ House and the other place. I hope that the noble Baroness is also minded to note that we learn from the wise words of others such as the noble Lord, Lord McNally, and that in introducing this group, I resisted using the word “technical”. I commend the amendments.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments 25 to 34.
“Duties to lay certain reports before Parliament: further provision
(1) In this section “a reporting provision” means section 2(4), (Report in respect of offences in regulations)(2) or 40(2) or paragraph 20A(2) of Schedule 2 (duties to lay before Parliament certain reports relating to regulations).
(2) Where more than one reporting provision applies in relation to particular regulations under section 1, the reports to which those provisions relate may be contained in a single document.
(3) If a reporting provision is not complied with, the appropriate Minister who should have complied with that provision must publish a written statement explaining why that Minister failed to comply with it.
(4) Subsection (5) applies where a reporting provision applies and—
(a) a statutory instrument containing the regulations concerned, or
(b) a draft of such an instrument, is laid before the House of Commons and House of Lords on different days.
(5) Where this subsection applies, the reporting provision in question is to be read as requiring the laying of a copy of the report to which that provision relates—
(a) before the House of Commons at the time the instrument or draft mentioned in subsection (4) is laid before the House of Commons, and
(b) before the House of Lords at the time that instrument or draft is laid before the House of Lords.”
United Nations Human Rights Council: Resolution on Gaza
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts(7 years, 8 months ago)
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The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)
My Lords, with the leave of the House I shall now repeat in the form of a Statement the Answer to an Urgent Question asked in another place on the decision of the United Kingdom Government to abstain from voting on the resolution of the Human Rights Council held on 18 May calling for an independent investigation into the recent violence in Gaza. The Statement is as follows:
“We abstained on calls for a commission of inquiry into recent violence in Gaza during the UN Human Rights Council session on Friday. Unfortunately, the substance of the resolution was impartial and unbalanced. We could not support an investigation that refused to explicitly examine the action of non-state actors such as Hamas. An investigation of this kind would not provide us with a comprehensive assessment of accountability. It would risk hardening positions on both sides and move us further away from finding a just and lasting resolution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
However, the United Kingdom continues to fully support the need for an independent and transparent investigation into recent events. We call directly on Israel to carry out a transparent inquiry into the IDF’s conduct at the border fence and to demonstrate how this will achieve a sufficient level of independence. We believe that this investigation should include international members. We urge that the findings of such an investigation be made public, and if wrongdoing is found, that those responsible are held to account. The Foreign Secretary stressed the importance of Israel conducting an independent investigation when he spoke to Prime Minister Netanyahu on 16 May”.
My Lords, that concludes the Statement.
Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)
My Lords, last Tuesday the Minister agreed with many on the need for an international, independent investigation. In fact, he assured the House that our team at the UN would be working hard on this, and that he would report back on progress. I hope that the Minister can explain why, if the Government were dissatisfied with what appeared at the Human Rights Council, the UK did not submit its own resolution to address this issue? Why not set it out in a way that last week we were all happy to support?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
The noble Lord is quite right to say that the Government’s position has been, and remains, to support an independent and transparent investigation into recent events. In this case, we joined European allies—notably Germany, Slovakia, Hungary and Croatia—in abstaining on calls for a commission of inquiry. I made the reasons for our abstention clear in my opening remarks. To that end, we were concerned that the resolution as presented could not be perceived as balanced because it did not look to ensure that non-state actors were fully considered. We remain true to the fact, however, that we will continue to work through all channels, calling for an international investigation into the events in Gaza last week. There is, as the noble Lord will know, a UN resolution at the Security Council on the situation regarding Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories. We are aware that Kuwait has also tabled a draft resolution. We are currently considering the text carefully and will make a decision on the way forward on that in due course.
Baroness Northover (LD)
My Lords, how does the noble Lord feel personally about this decision? He and his colleagues have repeatedly called for the facts to be established, so how does that square with abstaining on this matter? The Statement rightly asks for an independent and transparent investigation. Why, then, does it go on to ask one side—Israel—to carry this out?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, we made clear at the Human Rights Council the importance of any independent investigation. We sit on the Human Rights Council and we always stress the importance of co-operating, and we sought to do so. We did not vote against the resolution but abstained because we had reservations about the wording as it stood. We were not alone in that: I believe there was a total of 14 abstentions.
The noble Baroness asked about the Government’s position, which has been consistent. We want to see a resolution to the situation between Israel and the Palestinians, and we want to see an inquiry into the events that occurred last week in Gaza. Regrettably, children’s lives were lost. For that reason, we wanted to ensure that all material facts could be fully reviewed by any investigation that had been set up. We felt that the UN Human Rights Council resolution fell short of the requirement to ensure that any factors from the side of Hamas inciting others to act in this way were going to be fully considered. That was regrettable, and that is why the UK Government abstained from voting for the resolution.
Baroness Deech (CB)
Does the Minister recall that, only just over a year ago, the Government announced that they were putting the United Nations Human Rights Council on notice for its disproportionate focus on Israel? It is a council that contains countries not noted for their support of human rights, such as Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, Qatar and Burundi. Would he entrust the council with an independent investigation into, for example, the behaviour of British soldiers in Iraq? I am pretty sure that I know what his answer will be.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, the noble Baroness points to Item 7 of the Human Rights Council, concerning various resolutions relating to Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories. The Government have made their position clear to members of the Human Rights Council and to the Palestinians and the Israelis—that we want to see any bias in the Human Rights Council agenda addressed directly. That is what we have sought to do in the last few years, and the votes that we have taken have reflected that. Let me say again that, while we have reservations, we continue to be an active member of the Human Rights Council and we are supportive of its actions. Most recently, there were special sessions concerning a call for action on the plight of the Rohingya Muslims in Burma, and the Government have been supportive of those efforts. In any investigation that is held, impartiality and independence are important, as is balance, which is why the Government abstained.
Lord Robathan (Con)
To follow the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, it is important, as my noble friend the Minister has said, to have impartiality and balance. Tragic events took place in Gaza, where, in my opinion, there was a hugely disproportionate use of force—lethal force—by the Israelis. However, this was whipped up by Hamas. We know that and, indeed, I understand that Hamas has claimed that over 50 of the dead people were allegedly members of Hamas. That is not a capital offence, in my opinion, and there was disproportionate use of force, but any investigation must be impartial, and I do not think that that was on offer at the UN Human Rights Council.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, my noble friend raises the issue of the number of lives lost. I believe that over the two days, the count was 60. As my noble friend pointed out, Hamas itself claims that 50 of those killed were members of Hamas. There is another issue, to which my noble friend again alluded: the use of force and live fire. I assure your Lordships’ House that the Government continue to call for restraint. Indeed, when I was in Israel most recently, I directly asked the Ministers concerned to ensure that, in any conduct—be it in Gaza or elsewhere—the Government of Israel show such restraint. There were others whose lives were lost. I believe that six children lost their lives during the events of last week, and we all mourn the loss of life of such innocent young children.
The central point of the inquiry, as my noble friend said, is impartiality, balance and independence. The Government’s view was that the text that was tabled was not impartial and would not fulfil that objective.
Baroness Blackstone (Ind Lab)
My Lords, given the shocking loss of life as a result of the use of live ammunition against unarmed protestors in Gaza, and given what the Minister has just said about the need for an impartial, international, independent inquiry into what happened, can he reassure the House that the Government will not abstain when the resolution put forward by Kuwait comes before the Security Council? It would be enormously helpful, and very reassuring, to many people in this country who are deeply shocked by the violence that took place if he could do that this evening.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
As I alluded to in an earlier response, we are fully aware of the Kuwaiti draft resolution and are currently considering its text carefully.
Lord Steel of Aikwood (LD)
My Lords, like the noble Lord, Lord Collins, I am a little mystified as to why the Government did not manage to secure a better draft in the Human Rights Council, so that we did not end up looking very weak on the issue. The Minister will know that I have secured a balloted debate for a week on Thursday when we come back. I hope that by that time he will have been able to satisfy the noble Baroness and that the resolution in the Security Council will be supported by the British Government.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I thank the noble Lord for his question. The Government, and our ambassador in Geneva, were seeking the kind of text which we could agree with others. However, that was not possible; we are not the sole members of the Human Rights Council. After looking at the text in front of us, the decision was taken that it did not fulfil the full criteria, particularly on the issue of other, non-state actors. That is why we abstained. I assure the noble Lord, and the noble Lord, Lord Collins, that our ambassador on the ground, through instruction from London, sought to get the kind of language that would have been acceptable to the United Kingdom.
Syria
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Lord West of Spithead
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the prospects for a negotiated end to the civil war in Syria that does not involve President Assad.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)
My Lords, the lack of progress made towards a negotiated settlement in Syria is deeply disappointing. While the opposition has confirmed its readiness for negotiations without preconditions, the Syrian regime has pursued its brutal military campaign and refused to engage seriously in talks. Only a political settlement can bring stability and peace to Syria. The United Kingdom will be pragmatic about the nature of that settlement and we will continue to support the UN process to achieve it.
Lord West of Spithead (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that Answer. Our Syria strategy—if we actually have one—is prolonging the civil war, when ending the civil war is the best thing for the poor, benighted people of that country. Our focus seems to have been, from day one, regime change: presumably, not to hand over to the hotchpotch of opposition forces, many of which are worse than Daesh. Our lack of a clear vision has resulted in Russia being the arbiter, massive Iranian participation, Hezbollah, the raising of Kurdish expectations and consequent problems with the Turks. Surely, our aim must now be to put a stop to the war as quickly as possible, accepting that the loathsome Assad is inevitably part of the equation.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord that our aim must be to end this civil war as soon as possible. However, I assure all noble Lords that the Government have been and continue to be committed to the UN Geneva process, because it brings together all the Syrian parties required to ensure the stable settlement that we all desire. If we look at what Staffan de Mistura is actually presenting, a whole constitutional commission is proposed, which, yes, includes members of the Assad regime being present. The only reason why that meeting has not been held in Geneva since January is that the Assad regime refuses to engage. We implore Russia, and indeed Iran, to put on the utmost pressure to ensure that the regime takes part in those talks so we can achieve the lasting settlement that I know the noble Lord and all of us desire.
Baroness Cox (CB)
My Lords, why does Her Majesty’s Government’s policy—including funding armed groups and local councils affiliated to jihadists and maintaining a special forces presence in Syria, in breach of international law—demonstrate a commitment to removing President Assad, which can only help ISIS to recover territory? Surely, the priority must be to eliminate ISIS and related terrorist forces from Syria?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I agree with the noble Baroness that this is about eliminating ISIS, which is why the anti-Daesh coalition of 70-plus nations has managed to achieve that in Iraq. I have seen it at first hand myself. However, the perverse ideology of the hijacking of the noble faith remains. Therefore, we must prevent ISIS coming to the fore, not just in Iraq again—we must also eradicate it from Syria. However, I refute totally the allegation that the Government are supporting the regime. We are supporting organisations such as the White Helmets, which provide essential assistance, including sanitation and emergency health provision, to address the civilian population’s needs as a priority. That should be commended, not condemned.
Baroness Northover (LD)
My Lords, what discussions are the Government having with Russia and with President Erdoğan—who is here today—in engaging internationally with the Syrian peace process? What efforts are being made to de-escalate the conflict between Iran and Israel, which is so dangerous right now, in Syria?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
The noble Baroness is quite right: Turkey is also a key player in Syria, as we have seen through its engagement in Syria. Wide-ranging talks between the President of Turkey and my right honourable friend the Prime Minister will be under way shortly and Syria will be discussed. The noble Baroness raises an important point about engaging with Russia. As I have said previously from the Dispatch Box, we continue to do so at the United Nations, because they remain an important player. On the engagement of Iran and Israel in Syria, we implore all sides to show restraint. As the noble Baroness knows, we remain committed to the nuclear deal because we believe that to be the best way of ensuring Iran’s continued engagement and of finding a resolution further afield.
Viscount Hailsham (Con)
My Lords, I support the noble Lord, Lord West, when he says that President Assad is clearly going to be party to the negotiated settlement. I hope that we can avoid saying that individuals should be “held to account”. Although that may be morally and ethically right, it does encourage them to hang on.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
We, and the international community, certainly do not want to encourage anyone we feel is not right for the process. Most importantly, anyone whom the Syrian civilians themselves feel cannot lead their country—it is, ultimately, their decision—should not hang on and we should not encourage him. As I have already said, we are not against the engagement of the Syrian regime, led by Bashar Assad, in the UN process, which all parties are signed up to. However, the fact is that they are not engaging in that process. We implore them, and anyone who has influence over the regime, to do so.
Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)
My Lords, one key thing is to keep stressing peace talks with no preconditions. That is the clear message that we need to hear from the Government. As the Secretary-General of the United Nations said, evidence shows that gaining territory and seeking to win this war militarily do not work. Will the Minister convey that message to all the parties concerned? Talking is the only way that we are going to achieve a lasting peace.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I agree with the noble Lord. That is why the UN’s efforts have been geared to talks without preconditions, and the opposition voices in Syria have subscribed to that. Equally, the door is open to the Assad regime to participate in those talks. A UN-agreed settlement must be the right way forward, not individual players working out whose interests are best served by the regime continuing. I again implore Russia, and indeed Iran, to do their utmost to ensure that the regime participates in those important talks.
Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB)
My Lords, in 2002 I attended a reception at No. 10 for Bashar Assad and his wife. They had earlier met Her Majesty the Queen. He took in more than 1 million Sunni refugees from the war in Iraq and was considered an important strategic ally in the Middle East. When he looked like being toppled in the civil war, he suddenly became a monster and his Government a regime. Does the Minister agree that this sort of name calling, of someone who is in effective charge of the country, does nothing to help bring peace to the innocent people of Syria, who are suffering nightmare bombardment from the United States, the UK, Iran, Turkey, Russia, France, Israel and Assad himself?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
The noble Lord partly answered his own question with the final point he made: “and Assad himself”. That is when he became the person we, the international community and the Syrian people themselves felt could no longer lead a Government. When you start attacking your own people and using chemical weapons against your own population—I can think of many words the press and others may use, but the fact is that we do not believe he is part of the future. Ultimately, it is for the Syrian civilian residents to decide themselves.
European Organization for Astronomical Research in the Southern Hemisphere (Immunities and Privileges) (Amendment) Order 2018
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Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
That the draft Order laid before the House on 29 March be approved. Considered in Grand Committee on 9 May.
Gaza
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The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)
My Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall repeat in the form of a Statement the Answer to an Urgent Question asked in the other place on the violence at the Gaza border and its impact on the Middle East peace process. The Statement is as follows:
“As I said in the statement I put out from the FCO yesterday, the violence in Gaza and the West Bank has been shocking. The loss of life and the large number of injured Palestinians, including children, are tragic, and it is extremely worrying that the number of those killed continues to rise. Such violence is destructive to peace efforts.
We have been clear that the United Kingdom supports the Palestinians’ right to peaceful protest. It is deplorable, but real, that extremist elements have been exploiting these protests for their own violent purposes. We will not waver in our support for Israel’s right to defend its borders, but the large volume of live fire is extremely concerning. We continue to implore Israel to show greater restraint.
The UK remains committed to a two-state solution, with Jerusalem as a shared capital. All sides now need to show real leadership and courage, promote calm, refrain from inflaming tensions further, and show with renewed urgency that the path to a two-state solution is through negotiation and peace.
We agree with the UN Secretary-General’s envoy that the situation in Gaza is desperate and deteriorating, and that the international community must step up efforts. We call on the UN special representative of the Secretary-General to bring forward proposals to address the situation in Gaza. These should include easing the restrictions on access and movement, and international support for urgent infrastructure and economic development projects. We also reiterate our support for the Egyptian-led reconciliation process and the return of the PA to full administration of the Gaza Strip.
We must look forward and work urgently towards a resolution of the long-standing issues between Israel and the Palestinian people. Now more than ever, we need a political process that delivers a two-state solution. Every death and every wounding casts a shadow for the future. The human tragedies should be used not as more building blocks for immovable positions, which will lead inevitably to more confrontation, but as a spur for urgent change. Yesterday’s tragedies demonstrate why peace is urgently needed”.
Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)
My Lords, all our thoughts are with those Palestinians in Gaza whose loved ones have been either killed or injured as a result of IDF action. During subsequent questions, Alistair Burt appeared to support the Secretary-General’s call for an independent and transparent investigation of these actions. He said that a team at the United Nations was working to find the right formulation, bearing in mind that a Kuwaiti attempt failed because it set out to apportion blame. What timescale are the Government working to in respect of a United Nations response, because it is clear that these matters need urgent and independent investigation?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, as my right honourable friend Alistair Burt said in another place, the United Kingdom Government support an independent and transparent process to establish exactly what happened, including why such a large volume of live fire was used. Given the importance of accountability, we want this to be both independent and transparent. On timelines, this is a UN process which needs to be agreed by all relevant parties. As that is updated, I shall inform the House and the noble Lord.
Baroness Northover (LD)
I associate these Benches with the thoughts expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Collins, about those killed and injured. Under international law, firearms can be used only to protect against imminent threat of death or serious injury. Does the Minister agree that firing on unarmed civilians in Gaza, often at a great distance, must be fully and impartially investigated and that if the law has been broken those responsible must be held to account? His right honourable friend Alistair Burt, the Minister for the Middle East, referred earlier today to the “hopeless” and “desperate” conditions in Gaza. Does the noble Lord agree that the United Kingdom should give some glimmer of hope to Palestinians held in such conditions by recognising the state of Palestine?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, first, of course, I associate myself with the sentiments of the noble Lord and the noble Baroness. Our thoughts and prayers are with all the victims of the tragic deaths that have taken place. That said, on the issue of live fire, as I said in my opening remarks, we continue to implore the Israeli Government, while we respect their right to defend their borders, that the use of live fire should be considered only as a last resort. Indeed, this has been consistently mentioned at bilateral meetings directly with the Israeli Government.
The noble Baroness referred to the sentiments expressed by my right honourable friend in the other place. I visited both Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories a few weeks ago and saw why it is very important that we make progress. As for providing hope, of course we continue to support UNRWA’s efforts to ensure that medical aid and assistance reaches Palestinian communities in Gaza and the West Bank. That is why we are supportive of Egyptian efforts to bring greater peace and reconciliation in Gaza and it is why we welcome the opening of the Egyptian border for a few days to relieve some of those efforts.
Baroness Morris of Bolton (Con)
My Lords, I remind the House of my interests as declared in the register, especially as president of Medical Aid for Palestinians. The World Health Organization has said that the injuries sustained in these appalling events in Gaza are comparable to wartime situations. There are desperate shortages of drugs and equipment at the moment in Gaza. What are the Government doing to help alleviate this desperate situation?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
Let me assure my noble friend, as I said in my previous answer, that the UK is a long-time supporter of UNRWA’s efforts in this. Indeed, we are committed to continue our funding, which does provide those very basic services that my noble friend has just referred to. It provides basic healthcare to 1.3 million people in Gaza, and I assure my noble friend we are also supporting humanitarian access, which enables basic reconstruction efforts in Gaza as well.
The Lord Bishop of Worcester
My Lords, I am grateful to Her Majesty’s Government for the careful yet very specific response they have given to the appalling loss of life at the border between Gaza and the state of Israel yesterday. The thoughts and prayers of this Bench are with all those affected. It is good to know that the Minister supports an independent review of what happened. At the same time, will the Minister agree that, while the United Kingdom recognises the integrity of the border—and, indeed, of all Israel’s pre-1967 borders—and the security of Israel’s prosperous and pluriform society, the defence of its interests must offer tangible hope to those with whom it hopes to engage in dialogue? The phrase, “a glimmer of hope” was mentioned a moment ago. I was in Gaza about four years ago. The situation then was desperate and deteriorating. It is infinitely worse now. What real, substantial hope can be given to those who live in what is effectively a vast open prison?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, that is why the United Kingdom Government, let me assure the right reverend Prelate, are committed to ensuring humanitarian access, as I have said already, and equally firmly convinced that the only way to bring that ultimate hope both to Israel and to the Palestinians is through a two-state solution. We continue to implore both sides that, now more than ever, it is required that they come to the table and we see that lasting peace that we all desire.
Baroness Tonge (Non-Afl)
My Lords, does the Minister remember that the living hell that is Gaza and the creation of Hamas itself are due to successive Israeli Governments, and that the offer from Hamas consistently over recent years of a 10-year truce in return for the lifting of the siege on Gaza has been totally ignored? When will he persuade our partners in the international community and the Government of Israel to consider this offer?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, ultimately it is for both parties to come to the table. The noble Baroness mentioned Hamas. A positive step forward would be for Hamas to recognise the right of Israel to exist. It has repeatedly failed to do so. That would be the most progressive step and a step forward in that process.
Lord Green of Deddington (CB)
My Lords, I declare an interest as a former chairman of Medical Aid for Palestinians. Two days ago, we could not have imagined that 58 people would be shot, 2,000 civilians would be injured and explosive bullets—it is alleged—would be used. It is absolutely appalling. Frankly, for the Government simply to say that they are concerned is pathetic. In the face of that, they should condemn it and call for an immediate investigation, particularly into the nature of the ammunition used.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
As I said earlier, we continue to implore the Israeli Government to restrain themselves from the use of live fire. I assure the noble Lord that, when I and my right honourable friend Alistair Burt meet the appropriate Israeli Ministers, we continue to call for that very approach of ensuring that alternative methods to the use of live fire are considered. On the noble Lord’s second point, of course we have already associated ourselves with calls for an independent investigation.
Lord Campbell-Savours
The Liberal Democrats asked a very simple question: if international law was broken, should legal action be taken? Can we have an answer to the Liberal Democrats’ question?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
That will be a matter for the independent investigation. Of course, the investigation will look at the principles of international humanitarian law and then report back appropriately. That is why we are supportive of this transparent and independent process.
Lord Polak (Con)
My Lords, at the core of the Jewish religion, as with other religions, is the importance of the sanctity of life—“Kiddush HaShem” in Hebrew. I therefore mourn any loss of life. It is easy to blame one side or the other without having facts. I will give your Lordships just one fact. Yahya Sinwar, the leader of Hamas in Gaza, stated just last month:
“We will take down the border and we will tear out their hearts from their bodies”.
Also last month, Israel destroyed the largest and deepest Hamas tunnel into the territory. Will the Minister join me in condemning all violence, as well as Hamas’s continued development of its underground terror structure, its use of Palestinian civilians as human shields and deliberately sending its own people towards the border fence into danger?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, I am sure I join all noble Lords in condemning violence and the loss of innocent life anywhere in the world. We must now see progressive action to ensure that the lives that were lost recently were not lost in vain.
Myanmar
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The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)
My Lords, I join all noble Lords in thanking my noble friend Lady Anelay for securing this debate. She is a well-known advocate for freedom, equality and human rights around the world. It is my pleasure to respond to her today and to welcome her pragmatic and expert advice and insight into this important issue. I also thank all noble Lords for their contributions.
I share the opinion of many noble Lords about the onset of democracy in Burma. To reiterate the important points made by the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Houghton, and the noble Viscount, Lord Waverley, about the importance of trade, I remember, as a Minister for Transport at that time, that Britain extended an invitation very early on—I think I was the first Minister to visit to look at what opportunities for infrastructure development could be put forward to support the Government of the day. As several noble Lords have said, there has been great disappointment in the civilian Government, but we should not forget that they are much under of the influence and heavy hand of the military.
I will set out to answer most, if not all, noble Lords’ questions. I shall write to noble Lords about any that I am unable to answer in the limited time. Noble Lords will know that when violence broke out in Rakhine state in August 2017, it was the latest episode in the decades-long persecution suffered by the Rohingya community. We have been urging the Burmese civilian Government to take action since they took office two years ago. Yet, since August, thousands have been killed and many more remain unaccounted for. Anyone who has visited Cox’s Bazar has seen the human suffering. Around 700,000 people have fled. Sexual violence, particularly against women and children, has taken place. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans recounted the very personal story of Rajuma. When he spoke of her child being thrown into the fire, that is not an exceptional story; it is, regrettably and tragically, the human suffering of the Rohingya community.
I assure noble Lords that the UK has played a leading role in the robust international response. In November we secured the first UN Security Council presidential statement on Burma in almost a decade. It urged the Burmese authorities to stop the violence, to hold those responsible to account, and to create the conditions necessary for the safe return of refugees. My right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary, other ministerial colleagues and I have kept international attention focused on the plight of the Rohingya community. Since making high-profile visits—including one by my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary —we have maintained dialogue with international counterparts to continue to press for progress, most recently, as my noble friend Lady Anelay pointed out, at the Commonwealth summit and also at the G7 Foreign Ministers’ meeting in April.
The right reverend Prelate asked whether the UK will continue to work with partners at the UN; the short answer is yes. I was present at the debate in the Human Rights Council that was tabled by Burma and we have ensured that we have kept this issue right to the fore—including the situation that exists not just in Rakhine but in Kachin and Shan states, as the noble Baroness, Lady Cox, mentioned. I assure noble Lords that we will continue to ensure that the Human Rights Council continues to hold its intention and focus on these important areas.
The UK continues to be a generous contributor to the UN-led Joint Response Plan, and we recently announced additional funding of £70 million to support Rohingya refugees in Bangladesh. I join the noble Baroness, Lady Kinnock, among others, in paying tribute to the Bangladeshi Government. Bangladesh is a poor nation, yet it has opened up its borders as best it can to ensure that it provides the facilities. It is right that countries such as the UK and others provide the support that is necessary. I assure the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, and the noble Lord, Lord Collins, that following the UK’s announcement of a further £70 million, we are lobbying other countries to make further contributions of humanitarian aid. I also assure noble Lords that we have not reduced our embassy staff. The actual issue is that the Burmese authorities themselves are refusing to authorise embassy travel to Rakhine, which is the big challenge.
My noble friend Lady Anelay raised the recent visit by the UN Security Council and follow-up action in that regard. Last night the UK secured a UN Security Council statement, reiterating the council’s calls for Burmese action in ensuring a safe, voluntary and dignified return for refugees, and also stressing the importance of accountability. The UN Security Council is due to convene on Monday and the UK will use that meeting to ensure that the council again sends a clear message about the need for progress in Burma in the coming weeks.
We see the sight of refugee tents stretching to the horizon, in the knowledge that the cyclone season is fast approaching, which the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, talked about. She mentioned the spread of malaria. In all our conversations with the Bangladeshi authorities, including with the Prime Minister— most recently, my right honourable friends the Foreign Secretary and the Secretary of State for International Development wrote to the Prime Minister in March—we have emphasised the importance of ensuring expert input into this. Again, that issue was raised at the Commonwealth summit, working with the charity Malaria No More for the eradication of malaria across all countries, not just Bangladesh, and we will continue to work in that respect.
The scale and nature of the human rights violations and abuses, including sexual violence, perpetrated against the Rohingya in Rakhine state in particular have horrified and appalled all right-thinking people. The UK believes that it amounts to ethnic cleansing. The issue of the International Criminal Court was raised by several noble Lords, including the noble Baroness, Lady Nye. We await the International Criminal Court’s ruling on whether it has jurisdiction over the forced displacement of Rohingya from Burma to Bangladesh. If proven, this would constitute a crime against humanity and we will support the court, should it judge that it has jurisdiction. Of course, I will keep noble Lords informed of this.
The perpetrators of human rights violations must be held to account. The Burmese authorities have yet to begin a credible domestic investigation. I assure noble Lords that in all bilateral communication, and indeed at the last Human Rights Council, I met Burmese Ministers directly. We continue to raise important issues about access, international supervision and holding to account the perpetrators of these crimes. There should be no doubt that international attention will not cease until a credible mechanism is in place for accountability. Preserving and documenting evidence is vital for effective accountability. That is why we are leading efforts to ensure this evidence is documented appropriately and that this is done in a way that does not further traumatise victims.
Following on from my noble friend’s role as the Prime Minister’s special representative on PSVI, I assure noble Lords that UK-funded training in March by the PSVI team of experts identified just how much capacity building still needs to be done. We will continue to lead on this, ideally with UN and donor support, and we are working closely with the UN in this respect to ensure that Bangladeshi evidence-gatherers are given the skills they need. We have also funded a practical guide, specific to Burma, to help NGOs and other documenters of conflict related to sexual violence, and this was published earlier this month.
The noble Baroness, Lady Nye, also talked about sanctions. I assure the noble Baroness that the Government have pushed successfully in the EU to impose new sanctions that will restrict the finances and freedom of movement of senior military commanders who were directly involved in the atrocities in Rakhine last year. With our EU partners we are drawing up a list of named individuals and we hope to make an announcement very soon. We have also moved to strengthen the EU arms embargo, which the noble Baroness referred to and which now prohibits the export of dual-use goods and equipment that could be used for monitoring communications.
Ultimately, as all noble Lords have expressed, we want to see the voluntary, safe and dignified return of the Rohingya community to Rakhine—a point well made by the noble Lord, Lord Collins. For this to happen, it requires, as noble Lords have said, independent monitoring, ideally by the UN High Commission for Refugees.
Questions were asked about direct representations made by Her Majesty’s Government to the Burmese State Counsellor. The Foreign Secretary pressed State Counsellor Aung San Suu Kyi when he met her in February. The sentiments expressed by the noble Baroness, Lady Flather, in this respect, particularly about the hopes that were held out, were perhaps shared by many when the civilian Government was first formed—and we have since seen the disappointment of and tragic consequences for the Rohingya community. While we welcome moves by both Burma and Bangladesh to agree a memorandum of understanding to manage repatriations, much remains to be done. Returns can happen only when conditions in Rakhine improve and safety can be guaranteed. We will continue to demand that all the concerns of the UN High Commission for Refugees are met, and that the recommendations of the report of the Advisory Commission on Rakhine State, which were raised, are also implemented.
I also assure noble Lords that the British Government’s support for transition from conflict to peace will continue, not just in Rakhine but, as has been pointed out by noble Lords, in other states—Kayin, Kachin and Shan. Indeed, I assure the noble Baroness, Lady Cox, and the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, that the British ambassador visited Kachin state in January and met political and religious leaders. I will write to them with the details of that meeting.
In the short time that I have left, I assure noble Lords that we continue to press in our project work to ensure that humanitarian support—which was worth over £4 million in the last financial year—continues to all regions. Our project work particularly emphasises the importance of inclusion of all communities in Burma and of working in areas of the country affected by conflict, including those that my noble friend pointed out near the border with China. However, as my noble friend and other noble Lords have pointed out, it is important that we continue to press the Burmese authorities to give urgent access to allow much-needed aid to be delivered across Burma. We are also continuing to support grass-roots peace-building projects, providing access to the peace-building process. The noble Baroness, Lady Cox, and others asked specifically about lead NGOs. I will write about our policy in that respect. I assure the right reverend prelate that we will continue to support agencies on the ground.
I am running very short of time. I assure noble Lords that the Government—politically, diplomatically and in terms of humanitarian and development support—will continue to work. Ultimately, we hold on to the hope of building a bright future for all Burmese communities, and the return of the Rohingya community to their homes, but only in a safe and responsible manner.
Syria: Idlib
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts(7 years, 9 months ago)
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Lord Hylton
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to seek to prevent further fighting and loss of life in the Syrian province of Idlib.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)
My Lords, we agree on the need to prevent a military assault by the Assad regime on Idlib, which would risk a humanitarian disaster. We have discussed the situation with Turkey and the United Nations, as the international actors best placed to facilitate dialogue and humanitarian assistance. We call on all parties to comply immediately with the ceasefire mandated by UN Security Council Resolution 2401.
Lord Hylton (CB)
I thank the Minister for his reply. Does he agree that the situation in Idlib is potentially explosive because of the number of militants, including al-Nusra, who are already there? Is there an existing agreement between the regime, Turkey and Russia about that province? Will it be possible to transform any agreement into a permanent truce with disarmament, supervised by the United Nations?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
Taking the noble Lord’s second question first, the UN resolution provides for the very result he has alluded to. The United Nations has that basis, because it was a resolution that was passed by the Security Council with unanimity. He referred to agreements that may have been reached by the regime and other players within Idlib. That is not something that we would comment on, but I stress that one of the key players in that context is Russia, which is also a signatory to that UN Security Council resolution.
Lord Cormack (Con)
My Lords, it is highly probable that Assad will remain in power after this bloody, brutal and long civil war. Is it not time for Her Majesty’s Government to have some diplomatic representation in Damascus and to be talking to people? For goodness’ sake, we talk to many people internationally whom we do not like. Surely what is important is peace.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
We can all relate to the final point of my noble friend. Sometimes we all have to talk to people we do not like. I accept that principle. In the context of Bashar al-Assad, the position of the Government is clear. We believe in a transition away from the Assad regime to bring about the kind of resolution we want to see in Syria, which is one of unity, keeping the country intact and ensuring there is proper representation. On his question about a diplomatic mission, I repeat an answer I have given consistently: we do not have any plans to open a mission in Damascus. Within the Geneva accords there are of course representatives of the Assad regime, and we continue discussions with them as part of the overall settlement we hope we can reach on Syria in Geneva.
Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)
My Lords, the key element of this is establishing peace talks that have no preconditions, so we can get all the players around the table. Aside from that urgent need, we also have a situation in Idlib where the Syrian Government are saying that everyone is a terrorist. There are terrible crimes against humanity taking place because the civilian population, as a consequence of this war, has gone from 1.5 million to 2.6 million people. The people who are being bombed are the civilians, which is against international humanitarian law. How will we hold people to account for these terrible crimes?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I agree with the noble Lord that what is required is a comprehensive settlement that has all partners around the table. I thank Her Majesty’s Opposition for also alluding to that. The need for the Geneva talks to succeed is important, because everyone is represented there. On his other point, again I agree totally with the noble Lord. We must ensure accountability for those who are perpetuating these crimes. As I have said before and say again, let us not forget who began this civil war and who has committed the atrocities that we currently see to their greatest extent in Syria. To accept that this person somehow has a future unifying role and representative voice—of course I refer to Bashar al-Assad—is not something I subscribe to. It is important that we see the transition we all desire in Syria.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)
My Lords, we know that there are a number of militant groups active in Idlib, and that there have been recent reports of unexplained violence—car bombings and so on—within Idlib. Are the Government talking to some of those in the Gulf who have previously sponsored these groups, and to other Middle East countries, about what we do about the future of those militants now holed up in Idlib as part of moving towards a settlement? We know that, as with the remnants of al-Qaeda, those people are not going to change their mind very easily, and they have to be dealt with and resettled somewhere.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
As the noble Lord will know, one of the major extremist terrorist groups that has been operating in Syria is Daesh. In that regard, the universal coalition against Daesh of 70-plus countries has seen the defeat of that particular organisation. That sets the precedent for how you can defeat extremist and terrorist voices. I assure the noble Lord that we are speaking to all players within and across the region to ensure that we can reach the settlement that we all want to see.
Lord Dobbs (Con)
My Lords, this is a very difficult area, but what is the point in refusing to talk to the Assad regime? How on earth can we expect to have influence if we simply do nothing but throw bombs at them? We talked to Stalin, we talked to Mao Tse-Tung and we talked to Idi Amin, a man who kept human heads in his refrigerators. The art of diplomacy means dealing with some very difficult people over some very difficult issues. At the end of the day, salving our consciences should not be the main question—it is the ability to save as many lives as possible and restore stability to Syria as quickly as possible.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I assure my noble friend that I agree with him on his final point—of course, that has been the intent of the Government consistently on Syria, in terms of the humanitarian support worth £2.71 billion that we have provided. On his first point, as I said earlier—and perhaps I should re-emphasise it—this is about a transition away from the Assad regime. However, his representatives are present in Geneva, which is why we need to ensure that, yes, his representatives, as well as those of the Syrian opposition and all international players, are heard in discussions, so that we can reach the resolution that we all want to see, which is peace and unity in Syria.
Iran Nuclear Deal
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts(7 years, 9 months ago)
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The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)
My Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall now repeat a Statement made today by my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary in the other place. The Statement is as follows:
“With permission, I will make a Statement on the future of the Iran nuclear agreement, officially known as the joint comprehensive plan of action. The Government regret the decision of the United States Administration to withdraw from the deal and re-impose American sanctions on Iran. We did our utmost to prevent that outcome: from the moment that President Trump’s Administration took office, we made the case for keeping the JCPOA at every level. Last Sunday, I travelled to Washington and repeated this country’s support for the nuclear agreement in meetings with Secretary of State Pompeo, Vice-President Pence, national security adviser Bolton and others, and my right honourable friend the Prime Minister spoke to President Trump last Saturday.
The US decision makes no difference to the British assessment that the constraints imposed on Iran’s nuclear ambitions by the JCPOA remain vital for our national security and the stability of the Middle East. Under the agreement, Iran has relinquished 95% of its low-enriched uranium, placed two-thirds of its centrifuges in storage, removed the core of its heavy water reactor—thus closing off the plutonium route to a bomb—and allowed the International Atomic Energy Agency to mount the most intrusive and rigorous inspection regime ever devised, an obligation on Iran that lasts until 2040. The House should not underestimate the impact of these measures. The interval needed for Iran to make enough weapons-grade uranium for one nuclear bomb is known as the breakout time. Under the deal, Iran’s breakout time has trebled or even quadrupled from a few months to at least a year, and the plutonium pathway to a weapon has been blocked completely.
For as long as Iran abides by the agreement—the IAEA has publicly reported its compliance nine times so far—Britain will remain a party to the JCPOA. I remind the House that the JCPOA is an international agreement, painstakingly negotiated over 13 years—under both Republican and Democratic Administrations—and enshrined in UN Resolution 2231. Britain has no intention of walking away; instead, we will co-operate with the other parties in order to ensure that while Iran continues to restrict its nuclear programme, its people will benefit from sanctions relief in accordance with the central bargain of the deal. I cannot yet go into detail on the steps we propose to take, but I hope to make them available as soon as possible, and I spoke yesterday to my French and German counterparts.
In his statement on 12 January, President Trump highlighted important limitations of the JCPOA, including the fact that some constraints on Iran’s nuclear capacity expire in 2025. Britain worked alongside France and Germany to find a way forward that would have addressed the President’s concerns and allowed the US to stay in the JCPOA, but without reopening the terms of the agreement. I still believe that that would have been the better course, and now that our efforts on this side of the Atlantic have not succeeded, it falls to the US Administration to spell out their view of the way ahead. In the meantime, I urge the US to avoid taking any action that would hinder other parties from continuing to make the agreement work in the interests of our collective national security. I urge Iran to respond to the US decision with restraint and to continue to observe its commitments under the JCPOA.
We have always been at one with the United States in our profound concern over Iran’s missile tests and Iran’s disruptive role in the Middle East, particularly in Yemen and Syria. The UK has acted to counter Iran’s destabilising behaviour in the region, and we will continue to do so. We remain adamant that a nuclear-armed Iran would never be acceptable to the United Kingdom; indeed, Iran’s obligation not to “seek, develop or acquire” nuclear weapons appears—without any time limit—on the first page of the preamble to the JCPOA.
Yesterday President Trump promised to work,
“with our allies to find a real, comprehensive, and lasting solution to the Iranian nuclear threat”.
I have no difficulty whatever with that goal; the question is how the US proposes to achieve it. Now that the Trump Administration have left the JCPOA, the responsibility falls on them to describe how they, in Washington, will build a new negotiated solution to our shared concerns—a settlement that must necessarily include Iran, China and Russia as well as countries in the region. Britain stands ready to support that task, but in the meantime, we will strive to preserve the gains made by the JCPOA. I commend this Statement to the House”.
My Lords, that concludes the Statement.
Baroness Northover (LD)
My Lords, I too thank the noble Lord for repeating the Statement and welcome the fact that it is refreshingly frank and clear. On these Benches we share the widespread and huge concern over Donald Trump’s decision. We share the view that the JCPOA—to quote the Statement—remains “vital for our national security and the stability of the Middle East”. It is indeed ironic that the agreement with Iran is being jeopardised at exactly the same time as attempts are being made to de-escalate matters in North Korea. The Iran nuclear deal was hard-fought for; I pay tribute to our fellow Member of the House of Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Ashton, for her determination in seeing this through when others thought it was not possible. I am glad this is an area in which we are in lockstep with our European partners. Will the Minister say more about how we will make sure that Germany, France and the United Kingdom speak with one voice, and that China and Russia are in lockstep as well? If we are to stop Iran from walking away, that is surely vital.
Does the Minister agree that this situation plays into the hands of the hardliners in Iran, as the noble Lord, Lord Collins, has indicated? What assessment has been made of that? Does he agree that this is an incredibly dangerous time in the Middle East, with so many countries involved in Syria as well as a series of key anniversaries coming up? Could he confirm that the Government believe Iran was indeed in full compliance with the agreement and that this is indeed the view of the International Atomic Energy Agency? Does he agree that, if the United States or Israel had any evidence to the contrary, they needed to report that to the International Atomic Energy Agency?
What action is being taken to liaise with the US Administration, who clearly include some returning hardliners as well as most who have no influence whatsoever over the President? What discussions are occurring with Iranian officials? What plans are being made to tackle Iran’s potential development of nuclear weapons should the JCPOA collapse? Is there any clarity over whether UK companies would face legal proceedings in the United States if they remain involved in Iran—and what is being done to support them? What happens if they are in consortia with American companies or American parts in their supply chain? What happens if Iranian oil is removed from the global market? How are we addressing the impact of that? Can the Minister also comment on Saudi Arabia’s role? What assessment is being made of the risk that, should Iran pull back from this deal, Saudi Arabia will wish to proceed with its own nuclear programme?
This is a crisis where, once again, we see the enormous importance of our EU partners. Does the Minister agree that it is vital that this continues?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Collins, and the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, for their support for the Government’s position. I assure them both that the Government remain very committed to this agreement and to working with international partners to ensure that it is sustained. As I said in repeating the Statement, it has reaped benefits, particularly by stopping the development of nuclear weapons in Iran.
I shall take some of the questions in turn. I assure both the noble Lord, Lord Collins, and the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, that we will continue to work very closely on the E3 front with our partners in Germany and France. In that regard, as I said in repeating the Statement, my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary has spoken to their Foreign Ministers. All noble Lords will have seen that the Prime Minister, my right honourable friend Theresa May, the President of France and the Chancellor of Germany issued a joint statement immediately after the announcement. How that plays out in Iran is important. It is very easy to say that you are against the West, but the West is a broad group of nations, of which we are one. I often hear the words “Islam against the West”, but I am a Muslim of the West. Does that make me a contradiction? No, it does not. The point is that we cannot speak too generally on this matter.
We have seen unity among the E3. When President Macron and Chancellor Merkel visited the United States, they consistently raised their wish to see the US remain a part of the nuclear deal, and it is extremely regrettable that it has not done so. As I said, it now remains for the US to clarify further the requirements that it wishes to see, but the framework of the deal must remain. In that respect, the noble Baroness asked a specific question about compliance. As was pointed out in the Statement, on nine occasions, the last being in February of this year, it was reported back by the appropriate agencies that there was compliance, and that continues to be the case.
The noble Lord asked about dealings with Russia and China. Through various organisations, including the United Nations, we will continue to have conversations in this regard, but they remain equally committed to this agreement as the stability of the region depends on it.
The noble Baroness asked about dealings with Iran. I can inform the House that earlier today my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary spoke to Foreign Minister Zarif to assure Iran of our continued commitment. I am sure many noble Lords heard President Rouhani’s statement. We often hear about the different voices in Iran but President Rouhani has underlined Iran’s commitment to stay within this deal.
The noble Lord and the noble Baroness both asked about the implications for British companies, particularly those with United States counterparts. The Office of Foreign Assets Control in the US, which looks at how sanctions regimes apply, has already issued guidance to the financial services sector and we are currently evaluating that. As an initial step, we have issued immediate guidance to UK companies about reviewing their legal position with lawyers to ensure that they are compliant. At this juncture, I can share with noble Lords that there is a deferment date of between 90 and 180 days before the sanctions that the US imposes unilaterally become applicable. However, I will endeavour to keep your Lordships’ House informed about the implications of this decision, particularly for companies that may currently be investing or looking to invest in Iran and have international obligations.
Lord Jopling (Con)
My Lords, the Minister will no doubt have had his attention drawn to the rather surprising reports in the Israeli media that in recent weeks there has been an unexpected visit by a senior member of the Saudi royal family. As far as I know, that has not happened for a long time, if ever. Are the Government concerned that a new alliance between the United States, Israel and Saudi Arabia might be planning much more aggressive actions against Iran than we have seen previously?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
There is speculation about different associations. What is required in that region is a degree of taking stock of what this decision means. We call on not just Iran but all the players in that region to take heed of the need to ensure stability as a priority and to show due restraint. I have made it very clear that Iran has complied with its obligations under the treaty, but the United States has raised particular concerns about the sunset clauses. However, we remain very much committed. We have seen the results and the benefits of the treaty. For other players in the region—my noble friend mentioned several countries—it is also important to reflect on what has been achieved thus far, and the importance of remaining firm on the principles of the treaty and ensuring that we can work with Iran for continued stability in the wider region.
Lord West of Spithead (Lab)
My Lords, we stand on the brink of a disaster in the region. There is no doubt that, prior to the JCPOA, Israel was within days of carrying out an attack on what it thought were all the nuclear facilities in Iran. It is highly likely that if this falls apart, which it could, Iran will start work on a nuclear weapon again. What happens then? I am sure Israel will not allow that, and will attack—and if it attacks, people will assume that America is part of it and that we are part of it, and goodness knows what will happen in the entire region. Have we thought through what could happen, and what actions we need to think about taking? Inevitably, in a military sense, we will be pulled into this if that happens.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I think everyone is concerned about the stability of the region. Let me assure the noble Lord that we have raised our concerns with both Iran and Israel to ensure that there is a de-escalation, and no further escalation, in this conflict—which, as the noble Lord points out, will not only destabilise the region itself but have much wider implications. Let us be clear: a regional conflict is in no one’s interests. We recognise Israel’s national security concerns, but we also implore Israel to show due restraint, and Iran, too, to show restraint in its extended influence in various conflicts in the region, notably in places such as Yemen and Syria. What is needed now is restraint across the board, and we will continue to work with all parties to ensure that that prevails. The noble Lord highlights the very challenging situation that we are currently confronting.
Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)
My Lords, will the Minister accept a view from me personally: my congratulations to the Government on the role they have played in the lead-up to this lamentable decision by the US Administration? I do not believe we should mock what happened to the representations we made. They were properly and well made, both in the press and directly. What conclusions do the Government draw about a US Administration who have treated their three closest European allies with contempt, and have not felt the need to say a single word of remorse, when taking that decision, for ignoring the expressed views of their main allies? What conclusions do the Government draw from that?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I thank the noble Lord for his comments about the efforts that the United Kingdom Government made. As I said, my right honourable friends the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary made both calls and, in the case of the Foreign Secretary, a visit, to Washington to ensure that the US stayed part of the Iran deal. On the noble Lord’s second point, about the way the US has conducted itself with its European allies, of course it is deeply regrettable that the case made not just by the United Kingdom but by Germany and France did not get the result that we desired. However, I stress that the US and the United Kingdom remain important and strong allies. We have said clearly to the US that, while we recognise its concerns and the issues around the sunset clauses, it is now for the US to come forward and present what it believes to be workable solutions, while stressing and ensuring that the nuclear deal on the table remains intact.
Lord Howell of Guildford
My Lords, as my noble friend the Minister says, the task now is to persuade the American Administration to work on a new replacement agreement which embraces issues such as ballistic missiles and other destabilising and sinister activities by Iran. We all understand that. When we get on that path—as I hope we do—will he encourage his colleagues to point out two things to the Americans? First, if sanctions are reintroduced on a larger scale they will be immediately undermined by the Chinese, who already supply substantial amounts to Iran. They will soon supply substantial amounts of arms as well, quite aside from the wider dangers that the noble Lord, Lord West, has pointed out. Secondly, under American law the American Government are constrained from taking early and immediate actions and measures which lead to a substantial destabilisation of oil supplies in the oil market. This would certainly happen if Iran had to cut its exports from 2.9 million barrels a day down to fewer than 1 million barrels a day, and the result in oil markets would be chaos.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I agree with my noble friend’s suggestion. It remains our position and that of our European partners, the French and the Germans, whatever proposals the United States wishes to put forward. Of course we will continue to work with the United States but, equally, it remains important that the nuclear deal stays on the table and that Iran is part and parcel of that.
On the issue of the United States and sanctions, my noble friend again makes an important point. The US has now confirmed that there will be a wind-down period before the sanctions take effect of either 90 or 180 days depending on the specific sanctions. The detail of how this will be impacted is still to be seen. My noble friend’s point on China is also well made.
The nuclear deal took a long time. It went through different iterations. It took both the Democrats and the Republicans in the United States and, as was acknowledged, the noble Baroness, Lady Ashton, and others—I put on record my thanks to them—played a sterling role in bringing it to the table. It was a difficult deal to get done. Was it perfect? No, but it worked. It was having results. That is why we and our European partners remain committed to making it work by ensuring that Iran continues to remain part of the deal. The consequences of pulling away from the deal are all there and clear to be seen.
Lord Davies of Stamford
My Lords, there are a number of deeply disturbing and worrying aspects to this matter. The most powerful country in the world has broken an international agreement, and that is deeply destabilising for everyone. The cause of moderation in Iran and the position of Rouhani personally may have been undermined, which would not be in the interests of stability either. Particularly seriously, there is now a major rift between the United States and its European allies. The Government have taken exactly the right line on this, though the decision to send Boris Johnson to Washington, a man who is generally regarded as a slightly ludicrous figure—his previous intervention in Iran was certainly disastrous—was a tactical mistake. Can the Minister tell the House how it is going to be possible to prevent British or other European companies from being, in practice, so intimidated by the threat of fines from the United States Treasury as to de facto observing the US embargo whatever the British Government’s wishes on the matter might be?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary expended a great deal of energy focusing on whatever negotiations could take place and conducting last-minute meetings with various members of the Administration over this past weekend. I pay tribute to his efforts to seek an agreement and that should be recognised by your Lordships’ House.
On sanctions, as I said earlier, we have looked at the announcement from the United States and are evaluating its implications. The noble Lord raises a valid point about the threat of sanctions and the fear of what that may mean for companies operating in Iran. That is why the initial advice we have given is for companies to take legal advice on their individual cases as to the nature of what this would mean. Whether it will have an impact on their business boils down to a commercial decision they will need to take, having evaluated the risks in front of them. We will continue to look closely at the situation and if further advice is needed it will be provided on the Foreign Office website at the appropriate time.
Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)
My Lords, I do not wish to repeat much that has already been said, but there are two matters that I would like to draw to the attention of the House. First, this was a deliberate breach of Resolution 2231 of the Security Council of the United Nations. It also occurs at the same time that the embassy of the United States is being located in east Jerusalem, contrary to international law. Will the Government impress upon our American colleagues that it is very difficult to maintain a special relationship dependent on shared values if there are serious breaches of international law that is respected, on the other hand, by the United Kingdom?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
The noble Lord makes important points. The robustness and application of and adherence to UN Security Council resolutions are part of ensuring the vital international rules-based system that we all subscribe to. That is a point that we continue to make to our colleagues, our friends and our allies—that is, the United States. I think that we continue to have a very deep, meaningful and strong partnership with the United States on a raft of different issues, and we continue to wish to see direct engagement from the United States. That is important, not just for our bilateral relationship but for the security and stability of various regions in the world. Therefore we will continue to engage in a very positive vein on this issue.
In the same context, we look towards the United States, our strong ally. We will work constructively and co-operatively with it to address the wider concerns, be it on the issue of ballistic missiles or sunset clauses, ensuring that the nuclear deal stays live.
Viscount Hailsham (Con)
Would my noble friend assist the House in this regard? If the United States seeks to impose sanctions on UK firms trading with Iran after it has reactivated the sanctions regime, would the United States then be in breach of any international treaty, law or rule? If so, what does the United Kingdom propose to do about that?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
Again, my noble friend raises an important and pertinent point. As I have already alluded to, our immediate advice to UK companies impacted as such has been to take specific legal advice on their individual cases. The full implications of how these sanctions will translate is still being evaluated. Once more detail is available we will share that with the companies, as appropriate; but I cannot stress enough that any company in the United Kingdom that feels or believes it is impacted should take legal advice now.
The Lord Bishop of Chester
My Lords, I wonder whether the greatest danger here is that the approach of President Trump is completely counterproductive, in precisely encouraging the more hard-line and reactionary elements in Iran. Given that there has in fact been some good movement in the past year, with President Rouhani being re-elected against the more hard-line candidate and some changes on the legal front in the last six months, the danger is that this is going to provoke a deep anti-American, anti-western reaction that is precisely contrary to our fundamental thrust, which should be to promote the moderate elements in Iran. If so, what can we do—quite apart from the issue around the treaty—to promote the more moderate elements in Iran, which have a real traction when it comes to elections?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
The right reverend Prelate raises an important element within the context of how the American withdrawal from the deal will be perceived in Iran. We have taken a very progressive, constructive and vital step forward, through the showing of strength of E3 unity. The President of France and the Chancellor of Germany, together with our Prime Minister, have issued a joint statement in that regard. As I said earlier, that translates the fact that not all the West shares the opinion of the United States in pulling away from the deal. It is important to communicate that effectively, as my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary did today to Foreign Minister Zarif, and we continue to make that point consistently in all our dealings with Iran. On there being different voices within Iran, we saw President Rouhani step forward and give his commitment. We will continue to support all efforts to keep Iran within the deal and all international efforts to ensure that the deal itself remains alive.
Lord Mitchell (CB)
My Lords, the Minister said that the agreement has worked, but has it? It might have worked for the nuclear agreement, but has it worked for sanctions? Hundreds of millions of dollars are now in the hands of the Iranian Government. It has not gone to the people at all. It has gone into causing mischief in Syria, Lebanon and Yemen. Hundreds of thousands of people have died in those countries. I would be interested in the Minister’s comments.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I share the noble Lord’s concerns. I was quite specific on which elements of the deal have worked. I also said that the deal is not the perfect deal. There are limitations on it, some of which have been highlighted by the US in stating its reasons for withdrawing from it. That said, we still believe it to be an important part of ensuring that Iran does not progress down the route of acquiring nuclear weapons.
The noble Lord alluded to Iranian influence in the wider region. Again, we strongly condemn Iran and call on it to pull back. It has shown its hand in places such as Lebanon and Yemen, with support for the Houthis, and it continues to do so in Syria. This is not helping the situation in the wider region. It is destabilising. It is important that Iran recognises that its interventions in other parts of the region are viewed as far from helpful; they are extremely destabilising to the region and to peace generally. I assure all noble Lords that we continue to make this point very strongly to the Iranian authorities, its President and Foreign Minister on all occasions that we have these discussions. Iran has been destabilising in the region. That has to be recognised.
On our continued support, everyone would regret the fact that the Iranian people themselves need support. They have embarked on a difficult journey that is far from complete. It is important that we continue to show our support for them in the hope that we will see the kind of representation we all desire in Iran itself.
Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement. I commend the Government for standing four-square behind the JCPOA and I associate myself with the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Hannay. But with all due respect, businesses that are conducting perfectly legal business with Iran need more than advice. The Foreign Secretary said today in the other place:
“We will do our utmost to protect UK commercial interests”.
On 24 April, in the context of a Private Notice Question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Pittenweem, I asked a very specific question about this issue, asking what the Government intended to do in the light of developments at the Bill Foreign Ministers’ meeting to bolster and support our businesses, which were already concerned about the reimposition of US sanctions and secondary sanctions. I was not given an answer, but I was given an assurance that I would be written to. I await that letter; I am content about that. But surely the time has now come for us to tell businesses more than that they should take some legal advice and await further advice. We need to give them some specific indication of the extent to which the Government are willing to go to protect their interests from the devastating effect of these potential sanctions.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
On the noble Lord’s first point, I will ensure that there is a response, although that response no doubt will reflect the decision just taken. As I said earlier, the United States itself has issued specific guidelines in this respect, which we are currently evaluating. What I said about taking immediate legal advice was just that: immediate and initial advice. We will follow this up.
Of course we remain committed. We believe in strengthening trading ties with all countries across the world, but in this case we have continued to encourage commercial ties with Iran to try to build and progress that country to a more progressive future. We will look at this very carefully. Let me assure UK companies that are impacted that we are looking at the situation closely. The advice was issued only yesterday. We want to make sure we are evaluating it fully to ensure that we can subsequently give whatever advice and level of support we can after we have fully considered the implications. This is not just about telling businesses to get legal advice, but the first step must be—and I was in business for 20 years—to talk to your lawyers to make sure what you are doing and currently trading is in the context of international law and adherence to whatever sanctions regime might prevail.
My noble friend earlier raised an important point about the implications of the United States decision for international law. That also has to be evaluated, but let me assure all noble Lords that we are looking at this very carefully. It is a very sensitive issue, but the interests of British companies are going to be protected.
European Organization for Astronomical Research in the Southern Hemisphere (Immunities and Privileges) (Amendment) Order 2018
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts(7 years, 9 months ago)
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Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
That the Grand Committee do consider the European Organization for Astronomical Research in the Southern Hemisphere (Immunities and Privileges) (Amendment) Order 2018.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)
My Lords, I am sure that I speak for myself and the noble Lord, Lord Collins—perhaps more for him than for myself. I am sure that he saw a captive audience at the back of the room; he was very impressed by the fact that we would have someone looking in. That was quickly diminished because, as noble Lords can see, the captive audience is made up of my officials.
I welcome the noble Lord, Lord McNally, and my noble friend Lady O’Cathain to the debate. It is good to hear that this issue has interest in it. The order is interesting. As the noble Lord, Lord Collins, will no doubt remember, the order was laid before the House on 29 March. It amends the European Space Agency (Immunities and Privileges) Order 1978 and the European Organization for Astronomical Research in the Southern Hemisphere (Immunities and Privileges) Order 2009. I am sure that those orders are well-known to my noble friend Lady Goldie.
I start with the importance of the space sector. The European Space Agency and the European Organisation for Astronomical Research—also known as the European Southern Observatory, or ESO—are both important to the UK. We contribute more than £20 million annually to the ESO budget, for a share of just over 16%. We also contribute more than £300 million to the European Space Agency, making the UK the fourth-largest contributor. We are one of only six countries to host a European Space Agency, at the European Centre for Satellite Applications and Telecommunications in Harwell, Oxfordshire. This centre is a vital part of our strategy to develop the UK space sector—an area I know well from my time as a Minister at the Department for Transport. This is an important sector for the development of the UK economy in the future. The centre provides a focal point to showcase UK capability and partnerships. Working in partnership with the ESA, we are planning to develop an extension to our Oxfordshire campus which will house a meeting and exhibition space and a new conference centre. This will provide benefits not only to the space sector but to all sectors involved in the use of satellites, which currently contribute £250 billion to the UK economy. The space sector offers significant research and economic opportunities for the United Kingdom. British academics and businesses working in the sector are recognised internationally as leaders in the field and are in a strong position to take advantage of those opportunities.
I turn to the details of the order as it relates to each organisation. I turn first to the European Space Agency, established by a convention in 1975. The United Kingdom acceded to the convention and joined the agency the same year—although we had been collaborating with other European countries in this field for some decades before that. In 2013 we welcomed the European Centre for Space Applications and Telecommunications to Harwell in Oxfordshire. This order amends the European Space Agency (Immunities and Privileges) Order 1978, which afforded privileges and immunities to agency staff and high ranking officers. The revision confirms the immunities and privileges to which staff are entitled and the number of high-ranking officers that the UK will recognise.
Specifically, it confers the status of high-ranking officer on the head of the Harwell centre, and also provides for the ESA director-general and a maximum of seven further members of staff working at the centre to be considered high-ranking officers. This means that they are entitled to certain privileges and immunities, including exemptions from social security contributions. They are not, however, entitled to immunity from suit or legal process, except for actions carried out during their official functions or inviolability of residence. These high-ranking officers play a significant part in shaping ESA policy, and are world leaders in their field. The presence of high-ranking officers at the space centre in Harwell strengthens our capability and credibility and is crucial for the growth of the UK space sector and for attracting inward investment.
I want to reassure noble Lords that the privileges and immunities afforded to officers of the agency are limited to those that are required for them to conduct official activities. They are in line with those offered to officers of other international organisations of which the UK is a member.
If I could perhaps pre-empt questions before they are asked: leaving the European Union will have no direct impact on the UK’s membership of the European Space Agency. The ability for UK staff to work effectively for the organisation before and after the UK’s departure from the European Union is controlled by our adherence to legislation that accurately reflects the convention and its protocol and the privileges and immunities it affords to staff.
I now turn to the European Organisation for Astronomical Research in the Southern Hemisphere. The Committee may recall that some of the provisions of the order that relate to that organisation were debated in this House early last year. That earlier version of the draft order exempted only high-ranking officers of ESO from social security contributions. Having reconsidered the position, my department came to the view that we can properly exempt all members of staff from these contributions. We regret that this issue was not addressed fully during the debate on this order on 30 March last year. Rather than continuing with the 2017 draft order and amending it in short order, we have decided it would be better to lay this further amending draft order and to include in it the new provisions in relation to the ESA, which were not contained in the 2017 draft order. I beg to move.
Lord McNally
My Lords, I address the orders, which I welcome and see as perfectly sensible for international organisations. I have two particular points. Yesterday, we debated in the House how Parliament will deal with the tsunami of SIs that are coming our way as a result of Brexit. As the Minister has just done in his conclusion, I draw attention to the fact that these orders contain three apologies for errors in previous orders and two corrections. This is a fairly simple, straightforward endorsement of the workings of multinational organisations in our country and abroad. There were five mistakes in one SI. With the best intentions in the world, we have to look at the real problems we will have in dealing with statutory instruments and the need for accuracy and effectiveness.
I can see a little scepticism in the room about me talking about the space industry. That is one of the great things about being in the House of Lords. I served as one of the main spokespeople for the party on the Space Industry Bill. We greatly enjoyed taking it through, but I immediately started getting letters that began with, “As an expert on the space industry”. I am not an expert but I should declare that my son, James, is a space engineer working in Munich for a Franco-German company.
My views are all my own and they impinge on the way in which the Minister introduced these orders, with reference to the space industry. I agree with the Minister that the prospects of the space industry are among the most exciting that face us. I am very proud that, under the coalition Government, the noble Lord, Lord Willetts, and Vince Cable did a lot to reinvigorate the space industry. I am reading Ken Clarke’s memoirs at the moment. He talks about the 1980s, when he was in the DTI, and how he and most of his colleagues had little interest in the space industry as a growth industry for the future.
Now, it is the exact opposite. There is tremendous excitement and a great deal of potential there. The Government have done a lot of good things since 2015 to carry the industry forward. I understand that the legislation covering the European space industry and other international commitments relating to space has nothing to do with our membership of the European Union. As I said, my son works in a Franco-German company; he works with Poles, Italians, Germans and the French as well as Brits. It stretches credulity not to imagine that an organisation such as that, which depends so much on international co-operation, will find it more difficult outside the EU to partner.
Space ports are a good example. When Europe looks for its space port, I wonder whether the Scottish, Welsh or Cornish bidder will have a better chance than the Portuguese when Europe makes its decision. It is the same with Galileo: we have already seen the removal of one of the Galileo preparatory units from Portsmouth back to mainland Europe. We have to face the fact that what is a very exciting industry will have some question marks over it, because of the decision on our membership of the EU. I once saw a very interesting documentary about what is going on down in Chile—although the ESO headquarters are in Munich, not where my son works, its main work is of course down in Chile. The documentary showed that it is exciting and right at the cutting edge of space exploration.
My only words to cloud this optimism is that I remember very clearly where I was 50 years ago, when man landed on the moon. Those of us who were alive then could not imagine that, 50 years later, we would have made so little progress in space exploration. On the other hand, my father, who was born in 1899, used to talk about how, as a boy growing up in Liverpool, he remembered seeing the first aeroplanes flying and what happened to flight in the 20th century. What I learned from the Space Industry Bill is that the space industry is probably where they were in the early 20th century and that it could make similar amazing progress. Along with that, the progress regarding satellite technology, deep space probes, the mining of asteroids and so on are on the agenda of our scientists and could make a massive difference to the century ahead.
I support the passage of the regulations, but I just give those two gypsy warnings about the difficulty of dealing with the SI tsunami that we face and the problems of making our space industry viable outside EU partnerships. Again, some of us are old enough to remember Blue Streak and other adventures into space and that going it alone did not work.
Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)
My Lords, I know it is late in the day, so I will try not to bang on too much. I must admit, I did not expect to be making this speech again; as one of my brothers in the trade union movement used to say, it is déjà vu all over again. I do not know whether the Minister has had the opportunity to read the Lords Hansard from the last time we had this order but, if he has not, I will remind him of some of the contributions that I made. One mistake I made the last time we debated this order is that I managed to speak without saying the words, “the European Organisation for Astronomical Research in the Southern Hemisphere”. I realised this because, when I was searching for my last contribution using the Hansard search facility, it did not bring up my contribution, as I had managed to not say those words. So, for the record, I have said them now, so that just in case we have to return to this subject again, I know I will be able to find it.
I appreciate the contribution made by the noble Lord, Lord McNally, and I share his sentiments completely, and those of the Minister, about the importance of this. It is, strictly speaking, a sort of HR issue. This is about how we are going to treat employees of this organisation in accordance with an international treaty. I do not object to that—it is quite proper and should be done.
The concern I have is that this relates to a convention from 1962, according to the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie. We may be talking about other issues, but the protocol that we agreed to in the 2009 order—which took effect in 2012—and which we were talking about last March, was discovered to be defective in June 2014. There was a considerable period of time when this error went unnoticed but we now have to return to the subject. Last time we discussed it there were 40 employees: 38 in Chile and two in Germany. What is the score now? How many people are we talking about? What has been the impact of this error? Have people suffered a detriment? What is the cost to those individuals? If there has been a cost or a detriment to these individuals, what is the Foreign Office doing to address that? Will there be some form of retrospection?
When the Minister, Sir Alan Duncan, wrote to me, he acknowledged the parliamentary time that had been taken up and he regretted that it had been wasted. I accept that errors and mistakes happen, but this order has had a rather unfortunate journey, and I think we need an explanation. We need an assurance that things will be put right, and that the error has not resulted in people suffering a detriment. It may be that over this period of time, people have gone into and out of employment, which may complicate matters even more. I do not want to put too many onerous questions to the Minister. We have had a busy day already and are at the final hurdle but I hope that he will be able to answer me. The noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, was unable to answer me last time but I am hoping that the Minister will be able to on this occasion.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Collins, and the noble Lord, Lord McNally, for their contributions. As we have agreed, being part of the European Space Agency brings real opportunities for British industry. Our scientists and engineers collaborate with their European colleagues at the European Space Agency to deliver important advances. Let us not forget that in 2018—the “Year of Engineering”—the inspiration that the European Space Agency provides is even more significant.
The amendment order puts in place the necessary immunities and privileges to allow the European Space Agency to operate effectively in the UK. It also aligns domestic law with obligations we have to our European colleagues at the European Space Agency, with whom we share an interest in increasing our knowledge of space. As both noble Lords have said, it also corrects errors in the order relating to the European Organisation for Astronomical Research in the Southern Hemisphere —it comes off the tongue so smoothly that I am sure we will all remember it for future reference. There may be a test in a year’s time—hopefully not in the Chamber. Just as we benefit from our association with the European Space Agency belonging to this organisation, also known as the ESO, opens up a galaxy of opportunities for our scientists. I notice that my officials have used real space terminology. The UK’s commitment to both the European Space Agency and—here we go again—the European Organisation for Astronomical Research in the Southern Hemisphere remains unchanged.
I have already referred in my opening remarks to the regret that we have. Let me assure the noble Lords, Lord McNally and Lord Collins, that as the noble Lord, Lord Collins, just said, the journey which this order has been on has been turbulent. I understand totally their concern at the errors which were made in the order. The process is important. Let me assure the Committee that my department takes this issue very seriously. After the previous time this order was debated my noble friend Lady Goldie, who took that debate, followed up on it and we put right many of the clearance processes and revised our internal procedures for such orders. Although I cannot guarantee that there will be no error in any order in future, I can say on the record that our processes should pick up an error before orders are laid before Parliament. I totally empathise and align myself with the sentiment that we need to get this right.
The noble Lord, Lord McNally, talked about the tsunami of SIs which awaits us. It is important to ensure that in the approach we take when we lay orders in your Lordships’ House, and in the other place as well, the work is done and our processes reflect the importance that is attached to these issues.
The noble Lord, Lord Collins, asked about the staff. For clarity, let me say that the provision would apply only to those who are UK staff or UK nationals working in the UK. In this case, there are 42 employees who are UK nationals and ESO staff but none is currently in the UK. All are in Germany or Chile. We would therefore need to interrogate individual employee records since, as the noble Lord said, people may have moved locations. When he raised this issue with my noble friend previously, we said that we would put right any wrong in this respect. I can reassure him that, as I said, there are currently no such UK nationals employed in the UK. On the last occasion, the Government also undertook to treat sympathetically—I think my noble friend used that word—any approach made by any employee caught up in such a situation. I can confirm on the record that we have not been approached by any individual in that regard, but I assure the Committee that we will keep a watch on this. If there are any implications, I will certainly share them with the noble Lords concerned.
I hope that I have given reassurance to the noble Lords, Lord Collins and Lord McNally, about the importance of the procedure that should be deployed on statutory instruments in general, and specifically on this order. I hope that this is the end of it on this legislation. The noble Lord, Lord McNally, talked of how people are inspired and said that his son is employed in the space agency. We learn a lot from our children. After a conversation about space, I may have two aspiring astronauts: a six year-old called Mansoor and a four year-old called Faris. I am not embarrassed to admit that when my four year-old said, “Daddy, how many planets are there in the solar system?”, I responded with the figure nine. He said, “No”. I named them and he went, “Daddy, Pluto is not a planet. It’s a dwarf planet”.
We live and learn from our children, from our elders and seniors and from noble Lords. In doing so, we all align ourselves with this important industry and we want to inspire not just the current generation, as taken up by the son of the noble Lord, Lord McNally, but future generations. Maybe at some point in time when my six year-old and my four year-old understand the concept of statutory instruments, I shall share this chapter of their father’s life with them as well. I am grateful to noble Lords for their contributions.
Brexit: Sanctions Policy (European Union Committee Report)
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts(7 years, 9 months ago)
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The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have participated in this important debate, particularly my noble friend Lady Verma for tabling it. I pay tribute to her long-standing commitment to these issues. That is not just in her capacity as chair of the EU External Affairs Sub-Committee as, on a personal note, I assure your Lordships that, over the different roles of my ministerial career, if my noble friend has had something to tell me I know about it very quickly. I appreciate her candid and honest advice at all times.
I thank all noble Lords for their expert insight into the debate. When I stand up to respond to a debate on any respect of the European Union I am reminded of the words of my noble friend Lord Howard on my introduction to this House back in 2011. He said, “Tariq, I have not been in this House that long myself, but one piece of advice I can offer you is, before you say anything about a subject, bear in mind that someone around you has probably written a book about it”. That applies to the debates we have on the European Union. I am delighted to thank all members of the sub-committee for the report and their contributions today and to respond on behalf of the Government. The phrase “flesh on the bones” has been used a number of times and I hope I can provide some build-up beyond the structure we have talked about thus far.
In response to this wide-ranging debate, I will set out where the sanctions fit within our vision of a post-Brexit foreign policy and explain how we see our future sanctions policy operating. I was delighted to learn that the noble Lord, Lord Collins, has been paying such attention to my right honourable friend the Prime Minister’s speeches. I will pass that comment on to her at the earliest opportunity. It is very welcome; I know him well. He also mentioned the sanctions Bill and said that on a number of occasions I had said that of course it was subject to negotiations. He will also remember that through the passage of the Bill in this House I consistently said that the Government were listening. I hope that reflects the sentiments of the other place as well. Indeed, my colleague Sir Alan Duncan has been quoted on a number of occasions.
I assure noble Lords that as we leave the European Union we intend to pursue an independent and ambitious global foreign policy—one focused on security, prosperity and influence for the whole United Kingdom, by actively promoting and defending our interests and values. My noble friends Lady Verma and Lord Risby both talked about the values. I assure all noble Lords that we take our international responsibilities seriously and will remain an authoritative and influential player on global issues. The noble Lord, Lord Horam, among others, listed some of the areas in which the United Kingdom continues to be an important influence. Indeed, yesterday we were pleased to host at the Foreign Office and the IMO the hierarchy of the United Nations, which reflects the positive nature of the engagement we have with that organisation. Indeed, Secretary-General Guterres was complimentary and positive about the UK’s continued contributions on the world stage. When you include NATO, the G7, the G20, the OSCE and the Commonwealth—I cannot miss an opportunity to mention the Commonwealth—you see the global influence of the UK.
A point that is often raised about British foreign policy is our assets—our places on the ground, our diplomatic posts. I am sure your Lordships followed the announcements that my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary made during CHOGM. One alluded to the opening of nine new diplomatic posts across the Commonwealth family. The noble Lord, Lord Jay, talked about how we may be the fifth or sixth-largest economy. Sometimes in our friendly rivalry with our French friends we ask who has the most posts; I believe that on the last count we are now one ahead but I am sure that our French friends are watching that closely. But as noble Lords have acknowledged, we are a major country economically, diplomatically and on issues of defence.
Several noble Lords referred to the City of London as a part of our soft power. I believe that my noble friend Lord Horam referred to the importance of the City of London as a financial centre. As someone who spent 20 years in it before joining the Government, I assure your Lordships that it is important that we keep the global nature of the City of London open.
On the issues concerning the Foreign Office itself, the 2015 spending review protected the FCO’s budget for this year and, as I said, we continue to open new posts. Let me also assure noble Lords that we are working to develop and strengthen our bilateral relationships with our key partners, both in Europe and globally, to maintain and expand our international influence. The noble Lord, Lord Jay, talked about the importance of France and I am sure that he observed with real positivity the exchanges that we had during the Anglo-French summit. Of course, that summit covered a range of issues: not just security and defence but important issues such as technology, the challenges across cybersecurity and development. That shows the importance of our European Union partners, but not just in the context of the European Union. Poland is another country with which we have recently had a very positive, high-level exchange. This demonstrates the importance of the bilateral relationships between the United Kingdom and those respective countries.
As the Prime Minister set out in her Munich speech in February, the United Kingdom continues to seek a deep and special partnership with the EU, so that we can continue to co-operate on security and foreign policy and go further to meet new threats. We saw that solidarity in the strength of the response after the nerve agent attack in Salisbury, and saw how important this co-operation continues to be. Yes, this co-operation must extend within the context of the European Union but also go beyond it, as it does now, because we know that the wider the range of countries implementing a sanctions regime, the more effective that regime will be. This was a point made by many noble Lords during the debate. I assure your Lordships that we will work hard to get the broadest possible agreement for any measures we propose, starting with our position as a permanent member of the UN Security Council.
After we leave the European Union, I can assure the House that our approach will be one of co-operation. Sanctions will continue to be, by their nature, a multilateral tool and we will continue to seek to impose them in co-ordination with others. If I may turn to working directly with the European Union and a point raised by my noble friend Lady Verma in her introductory remarks, until we leave the EU we remain committed to our rights and responsibilities as an EU member state. This includes continuing our proactive approach on sanctions, in pursuit of our security and foreign policy objectives.
I can also assure noble Lords that, after we leave, we will continue to work with our EU partners to maintain our collective peace and security. As noble Lords have all acknowledged, sanctions will be a powerful tool in that effort. As my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary told the House of Commons at the Second Reading of the Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Bill, he hopes that we will “act in tandem” with the EU on sanctions, where possible, because we,
“will always confront the same threats and defend the same values”.—[Official Report, Commons, 20/2/18; col. 78.]
If I may turn to the specific questions, first, my noble friend Lady Verma and the noble Lord, Lord Jay, raised the option of aligning with sanctions regimes agreed by the EU 27. This would be along the lines of, or in a similar fashion to, the likes of Norway or Switzerland, which implement UN sanctions and have the powers to implement autonomous national sanctions. We understand that Norway and Switzerland rarely, if ever, implement unilateral sanctions and instead choose to align with EU sanctions, with limited input on decisions. As such, we are not seeking this option as part of our future relationship with the EU. We have been clear that when we leave the European Union, we will seek to impose our own autonomous sanctions.
As the Foreign Secretary told the House of Commons at Second Reading of the Bill, we will be able to concert our measures with the EU if there is a shared position, but by leaving the European Union we will be able to act independently or alongside other allies if there is no agreement within the European Union. The sanctions Bill will give us the powers to do so. This differing framework means that in the long term, any co-ordination with the EU on sanctions would be political, rather than the legal alignment we have now.
Given our independent foreign policy and our sanctions expertise, it would be inappropriate in the long run for us to adopt EU sanctions automatically, without any input into decisions or the flexibility to choose our own approach. I assure noble Lords that as part of our future relationship we are seeking an arrangement that appropriately reflects this.
Turning to some of the specific questions, my noble friend asked about aspirations for sanctions co-operation after Brexit and the model of sanctions co-operation based on two-way exchange, and my noble friend Lord Risby and the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, referred to the proposal for a UK-EU political forum. My noble friend Lady Verma asked for a detailed explanation of the Government’s aspirations for sanctions after Brexit. I assure my noble friend that, as we have said before, including in our reply to the committee’s report, we envisage a model of UK-EU sanctions co-operation based on two-way exchanges of analysis and information. This is still our vision. When we look at some of our international security co-operations, the Five Eyes co-operation comes to mind immediately. It demonstrates how like-minded countries acting on common values can come together to act in the common shared security interest.
Given our shared interests and values, the importance of multilateralism in this area, and the UK’s expertise, it is in both the UK’s and the EU’s interests to be able to discuss sanctions in the future. Any mechanism to do so should respect both the EU’s decision-making autonomy and the UK’s sovereignty, and, through the exchange of analysis and information, will allow us to combine our efforts on sanctions to the greatest effect.
The committee recommended that the Government should propose a regular political forum with the EU to discuss and co-ordinate sanctions policy. My noble friends Lady Verma and Lord Horam asked me to comment on this specifically. A forum such as this is one way in which this close co-operation could be put into practice, but there is a range of forms this could take. I assure noble Lords, and my noble friends in particular, that we have now moved into the next phase of negotiations with the EU where we are discussing our future relationship on a wide range of issues, including foreign policy and sanctions. I am sure noble Lords will respect the fact that it would be inappropriate for me to go into too much detail at this point, as these are discussions that will be had with our European partners, but we are starting from a position where both sides have agreed close engagement through both formal and informal mechanisms.
My noble friend also asked about our intent. The European Council’s guidelines for our future relationship give us good reason to believe that the EU is also committed to progress on an arrangement of this kind. The guidelines state that there should be “strong EU-UK co-operation” in our security, defence and foreign policy and they foresee,
“appropriate dialogue, consultation, exchange of information, and cooperation mechanisms”.
This mutual agreement on the benefits of close co-operation is welcome and, during the upcoming negotiations, we will be working towards achieving this in practice.
Several noble Lords, including the noble Lords, Lord Taverne and Lord Anderson, spoke about loss of influence and expressed concern that our influence on sanctions will be diminished as we leave the EU. I disagree with this assessment. I have already alluded to the strength of the UK’s position in different fora and our representation in different international bodies but when it comes to sanctions, it is clearly in the interests of our international partners to continue to co-operate across jurisdictions, for the EU to co-operate with us and for us to co-operate with the EU.
With regard to the EU specifically, we know from its negotiating guidelines that I have just alluded to that it wants to maintain close links with us on foreign and security policy, of which sanctions remain an integral part.
Lord Hunt of Chesterton (Lab)
The Minister has talked a couple of times about maintaining a lead. The fact is that in leaving the EU we are seriously losing our position in some of these important high-technology defence matters; the Times yesterday was referring to the Galileo programme. These are very serious changes that are taking place. Is he really saying that we are going to be stronger as a result of our likely measures?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
The noble Lord is right to raise the issue of technology. A direct response to that is that when you look at some of the issues, specifically on security, cyber security perhaps poses one of the biggest challenges that we are now confronting. The National Cyber Security Centre, which is just up the road in Victoria, again demonstrates UK expertise and insight.
I assure the noble Lord that in leaving the EU we have been able to further strengthen our work not only in the European context but internationally. Indeed, during the Commonwealth summit we announced an additional £15 million in support of cybersecurity assessments for various Commonwealth states. The noble Lord shakes his head but I do not agree with him. The position that we are setting out during the Brexit negotiations is one of co-operation and working together where our needs align with the EU, but at the same time looking at the broader world, the global challenges that we are facing and our position through the different international bodies that I have alluded to. On the question of technology, if the noble Lord has not yet visited the National Cyber Security Centre then perhaps he should, and he will see that it is a world-class outfit that again demonstrates British leadership on what I agree is an important issue.
I assure noble Lords that we have a long-established reputation for playing our part in developing strong, credible and lawful EU sanctions, and we have a range of assets that will continue to make us an attractive partner for the EU on sanctions policy. This includes the strong public and private sector expertise, with significant resources devoted to sanctions across government—again, I refer to the City of London—as well as a world-class legal system and well-respected think tanks. These are all important assets that we have.
As I mentioned earlier, our influence on international sanctions is not limited to our role at the EU. Roughly half the sanctions regimes currently in force contain UN Security Council measures. We are a permanent member of this important body and will continue to play a leading role in developing global sanctions. Given this, we believe we will remain one of the leading sanctions players after we leave the EU.
My noble friends Lady Verma and Lord Risby referred to the important issue of the implementation period. As I have said, we envisage close co-ordination with the EU on sanctions as part of our future relationship with the EU. The Prime Minister has already mentioned this specifically in her Munich speech. The details of the mechanisms to enable co-operation during the implementation period are still very much subject to negotiations but I assure noble Lords that we will seek a co-ordinated approach on sanctions before decisions are made.
My noble friend asked, as did the noble Lord, Lord Taverne, about the issue of the UK/EU relationship on common foreign and security policy. At the March European Council the UK agreed arrangements with the EU for how common foreign and security policy would work during the implementation period. This included an agreement covering our future relationship on the CFSP, and the CSDP would come into effect during the implementation period. The UK hopes to begin discussions on our future relationship very soon.
I shall refer also to the sanctions Bill. When we leave the EU, we will of course need powers to design and implement the UK autonomous sanctions regime. The committee referred in its report to the framework contained in the Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Bill, which many noble Lords are familiar with; the noble Lord, Lord Collins, talked about that quite specifically. The report raised the concern that the Bill, along with the future economic arrangements between the UK and the EU, could limit the extent to which sanctions co-operation could be put into practice. As noble Lords will be aware, the Bill completed Report and Third Reading in the other place on Tuesday and will return to this House in due course for the consideration of amendments here. Changes have been made to it, and those amendments include making clear that sanctions regulations can be imposed for the purpose of preventing or providing accountability for gross human rights abuses, a point made very well by the noble Lord, Lord Anderson. As the Minister for Human Rights, let me assure him that that is an important addition and recognition which will allow the UK to act against those responsible for serious human rights abuses or violations worldwide. They also include important powers to enforce sanctions on board ships outside UK territorial waters, to strengthen our efforts to counter the transportation of dangerous and harmful goods and technology and the ability to create criminal offences for breaches of sanctions regulations, subject to statutory mechanisms controlling the use of that power.
As the Bill stands, we are confident that it will not limit appropriate co-ordination with international partners. It was drafted for flexibility. I again commend the positive way in which the Bill progressed through your Lordships’ House. It was drafted to ensure that we can continue to impose sanctions currently implemented through EU law, and that has been improved through the helpful scrutiny of both this House and the other place. If the key provisions of the Bill remain in their current form, we are confident that we can use this framework to co-ordinate effectively with our partners and remain a leader in responsible and smart sanctions policy.
The noble Lord, Lord Anderson, among others, mentioned the sanctions on Russia and the nature of Russia. As we have seen, they are having an effect on Russian policy. Many noble Lords, including my noble friend Lord Horam, mentioned Iran. Most of the financial and economic sanctions against Iran were indeed lifted following the International Atomic Energy Agency’s verification. There are now far fewer sanctions in place, easing previous restrictions on trade with Iran, and we are clear that the JCPOA is in the UK’s national security interest, that it is working and that we remain committed to it.
My noble friend Lord Tugendhat also raised the issue of the DPRK. Our latest sanctions on the DPRK build on the tough measures that the UN has passed over the past year. They target significant income streams used by the DPRK to fund both nuclear and ballistic missile programmes. I heard the sentiment of noble Lords across the House: with the challenges that we sometimes have on the world stage, there is a glimmer of hope through the recent meeting of the two Koreas. We hope that those talks, and those with America—the US—progress well.
My noble friend Lord Horam also mentioned transparency, and he was right to raise the issue of London property. Returning to the sanctions Bill, as he may recall, my noble friend Lord Faulks introduced an amendment and the Government gave a commitment to bring forward a Bill making provision for a UK register containing details of the overseas companies which own property in the UK. We anticipate doing so early in the next parliamentary Session and, as we committed, establishing that register by 2021.
To sum up, the Government are deeply grateful for the EU External Affairs Sub-Committee’s report and believe it to be a valuable tool and contribution to the important debate on the UK’s future relationship with the European Union and future foreign policy in general. We are confident that the UK will remain a leading international player on sanctions after we leave the European Union. Let me assure noble Lords that we will continue to work closely on this vital area with our partners in Europe and across the world to advance our foreign policy and national security interests.
Finally, the report has provided some very useful tools and points of discussion, which I assure your Lordships that the Government continue to consider very carefully. I am once again very grateful to all noble Lords who have contributed to this important debate and assure noble Lords that, as we work through the policy, particularly in this important area of sanctions, we have listened. It is important to get this right and, in this respect, I always welcome both the wisdom and, at times, the wit of your Lordships’ House in ensuring that the Government can work progressively and in co-operation to ensure that the sanctions policy and regime we have in place after we leave the European Union is one that works for everyone.