European Organization for Astronomical Research in the Southern Hemisphere (Immunities and Privileges) (Amendment) Order 2018

Lord Collins of Highbury Excerpts

Wednesday 9th May 2018 Grand Committee

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, I address the orders, which I welcome and see as perfectly sensible for international organisations. I have two particular points. Yesterday, we debated in the House how Parliament will deal with the tsunami of SIs that are coming our way as a result of Brexit. As the Minister has just done in his conclusion, I draw attention to the fact that these orders contain three apologies for errors in previous orders and two corrections. This is a fairly simple, straightforward endorsement of the workings of multinational organisations in our country and abroad. There were five mistakes in one SI. With the best intentions in the world, we have to look at the real problems we will have in dealing with statutory instruments and the need for accuracy and effectiveness.

I can see a little scepticism in the room about me talking about the space industry. That is one of the great things about being in the House of Lords. I served as one of the main spokespeople for the party on the Space Industry Bill. We greatly enjoyed taking it through, but I immediately started getting letters that began with, “As an expert on the space industry”. I am not an expert but I should declare that my son, James, is a space engineer working in Munich for a Franco-German company.

My views are all my own and they impinge on the way in which the Minister introduced these orders, with reference to the space industry. I agree with the Minister that the prospects of the space industry are among the most exciting that face us. I am very proud that, under the coalition Government, the noble Lord, Lord Willetts, and Vince Cable did a lot to reinvigorate the space industry. I am reading Ken Clarke’s memoirs at the moment. He talks about the 1980s, when he was in the DTI, and how he and most of his colleagues had little interest in the space industry as a growth industry for the future.

Now, it is the exact opposite. There is tremendous excitement and a great deal of potential there. The Government have done a lot of good things since 2015 to carry the industry forward. I understand that the legislation covering the European space industry and other international commitments relating to space has nothing to do with our membership of the European Union. As I said, my son works in a Franco-German company; he works with Poles, Italians, Germans and the French as well as Brits. It stretches credulity not to imagine that an organisation such as that, which depends so much on international co-operation, will find it more difficult outside the EU to partner.

Space ports are a good example. When Europe looks for its space port, I wonder whether the Scottish, Welsh or Cornish bidder will have a better chance than the Portuguese when Europe makes its decision. It is the same with Galileo: we have already seen the removal of one of the Galileo preparatory units from Portsmouth back to mainland Europe. We have to face the fact that what is a very exciting industry will have some question marks over it, because of the decision on our membership of the EU. I once saw a very interesting documentary about what is going on down in Chile—although the ESO headquarters are in Munich, not where my son works, its main work is of course down in Chile. The documentary showed that it is exciting and right at the cutting edge of space exploration.

My only words to cloud this optimism is that I remember very clearly where I was 50 years ago, when man landed on the moon. Those of us who were alive then could not imagine that, 50 years later, we would have made so little progress in space exploration. On the other hand, my father, who was born in 1899, used to talk about how, as a boy growing up in Liverpool, he remembered seeing the first aeroplanes flying and what happened to flight in the 20th century. What I learned from the Space Industry Bill is that the space industry is probably where they were in the early 20th century and that it could make similar amazing progress. Along with that, the progress regarding satellite technology, deep space probes, the mining of asteroids and so on are on the agenda of our scientists and could make a massive difference to the century ahead.

I support the passage of the regulations, but I just give those two gypsy warnings about the difficulty of dealing with the SI tsunami that we face and the problems of making our space industry viable outside EU partnerships. Again, some of us are old enough to remember Blue Streak and other adventures into space and that going it alone did not work.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, I know it is late in the day, so I will try not to bang on too much. I must admit, I did not expect to be making this speech again; as one of my brothers in the trade union movement used to say, it is déjà vu all over again. I do not know whether the Minister has had the opportunity to read the Lords Hansard from the last time we had this order but, if he has not, I will remind him of some of the contributions that I made. One mistake I made the last time we debated this order is that I managed to speak without saying the words, “the European Organisation for Astronomical Research in the Southern Hemisphere”. I realised this because, when I was searching for my last contribution using the Hansard search facility, it did not bring up my contribution, as I had managed to not say those words. So, for the record, I have said them now, so that just in case we have to return to this subject again, I know I will be able to find it.

I appreciate the contribution made by the noble Lord, Lord McNally, and I share his sentiments completely, and those of the Minister, about the importance of this. It is, strictly speaking, a sort of HR issue. This is about how we are going to treat employees of this organisation in accordance with an international treaty. I do not object to that—it is quite proper and should be done.

The concern I have is that this relates to a convention from 1962, according to the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie. We may be talking about other issues, but the protocol that we agreed to in the 2009 order—which took effect in 2012—and which we were talking about last March, was discovered to be defective in June 2014. There was a considerable period of time when this error went unnoticed but we now have to return to the subject. Last time we discussed it there were 40 employees: 38 in Chile and two in Germany. What is the score now? How many people are we talking about? What has been the impact of this error? Have people suffered a detriment? What is the cost to those individuals? If there has been a cost or a detriment to these individuals, what is the Foreign Office doing to address that? Will there be some form of retrospection?

When the Minister, Sir Alan Duncan, wrote to me, he acknowledged the parliamentary time that had been taken up and he regretted that it had been wasted. I accept that errors and mistakes happen, but this order has had a rather unfortunate journey, and I think we need an explanation. We need an assurance that things will be put right, and that the error has not resulted in people suffering a detriment. It may be that over this period of time, people have gone into and out of employment, which may complicate matters even more. I do not want to put too many onerous questions to the Minister. We have had a busy day already and are at the final hurdle but I hope that he will be able to answer me. The noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, was unable to answer me last time but I am hoping that the Minister will be able to on this occasion.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Collins, and the noble Lord, Lord McNally, for their contributions. As we have agreed, being part of the European Space Agency brings real opportunities for British industry. Our scientists and engineers collaborate with their European colleagues at the European Space Agency to deliver important advances. Let us not forget that in 2018—the “Year of Engineering”—the inspiration that the European Space Agency provides is even more significant.

The amendment order puts in place the necessary immunities and privileges to allow the European Space Agency to operate effectively in the UK. It also aligns domestic law with obligations we have to our European colleagues at the European Space Agency, with whom we share an interest in increasing our knowledge of space. As both noble Lords have said, it also corrects errors in the order relating to the European Organisation for Astronomical Research in the Southern Hemisphere —it comes off the tongue so smoothly that I am sure we will all remember it for future reference. There may be a test in a year’s time—hopefully not in the Chamber. Just as we benefit from our association with the European Space Agency belonging to this organisation, also known as the ESO, opens up a galaxy of opportunities for our scientists_. I notice that my officials have used real space terminology. The UK’s commitment to both the European Space Agency and—here we go again—the European Organisation for Astronomical Research in the Southern Hemisphere remains unchanged.

I have already referred in my opening remarks to the regret that we have. Let me assure the noble Lords, Lord McNally and Lord Collins, that as the noble Lord, Lord Collins, just said, the journey which this order has been on has been turbulent. I understand totally their concern at the errors which were made in the order. The process is important. Let me assure the Committee that my department takes this issue very seriously. After the previous time this order was debated my noble friend Lady Goldie, who took that debate, followed up on it and we put right many of the clearance processes and revised our internal procedures for such orders. Although I cannot guarantee that there will be no error in any order in future, I can say on the record that our processes should pick up an error before orders are laid before Parliament. I totally empathise and align myself with the sentiment that we need to get this right.

The noble Lord, Lord McNally, talked about the tsunami of SIs which awaits us. It is important to ensure that in the approach we take when we lay orders in your Lordships’ House, and in the other place as well, the work is done and our processes reflect the importance that is attached to these issues.

The noble Lord, Lord Collins, asked about the staff. For clarity, let me say that the provision would apply only to those who are UK staff or UK nationals working in the UK. In this case, there are 42 employees who are UK nationals and ESO staff but none is currently in the UK. All are in Germany or Chile. We would therefore need to interrogate individual employee records since, as the noble Lord said, people may have moved locations. When he raised this issue with my noble friend previously, we said that we would put right any wrong in this respect. I can reassure him that, as I said, there are currently no such UK nationals employed in the UK. On the last occasion, the Government also undertook to treat sympathetically—I think my noble friend used that word—any approach made by any employee caught up in such a situation. I can confirm on the record that we have not been approached by any individual in that regard, but I assure the Committee that we will keep a watch on this. If there are any implications, I will certainly share them with the noble Lords concerned.

I hope that I have given reassurance to the noble Lords, Lord Collins and Lord McNally, about the importance of the procedure that should be deployed on statutory instruments in general, and specifically on this order. I hope that this is the end of it on this legislation. The noble Lord, Lord McNally, talked of how people are inspired and said that his son is employed in the space agency. We learn a lot from our children. After a conversation about space, I may have two aspiring astronauts: a six year-old called Mansoor and a four year-old called Faris. I am not embarrassed to admit that when my four year-old said, “Daddy, how many planets are there in the solar system?”, I responded with the figure nine. He said, “No”. I named them and he went, “Daddy, Pluto is not a planet. It’s a dwarf planet”.

We live and learn from our children, from our elders and seniors and from noble Lords. In doing so, we all align ourselves with this important industry and we want to inspire not just the current generation, as taken up by the son of the noble Lord, Lord McNally, but future generations. Maybe at some point in time when my six year-old and my four year-old understand the concept of statutory instruments, I shall share this chapter of their father’s life with them as well. I am grateful to noble Lords for their contributions.