Law Commission Digital Assets Report: Government Response

Heidi Alexander Excerpts

Wednesday 11th September 2024 Written Statements

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Heidi Alexander)]

My noble Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede) has today made the following statement:

I am pleased to inform the House that we are taking forward the Property (Digital Assets etc.) Bill via the Law Commission’s special procedure. This recommendation was made in the “Digital Assets: Final Report” published by the Law Commission in June 2023. The Bill will confirm in statute the common law position that certain digital assets can constitute property.

Providing certainty over legal issues around digital assets will encourage the use of English and Welsh law in internationally mobile transactions. The Ministry of Justice commissioned the digital assets report in 2020 to identify any barriers to the recognition of digital assets as property under English and Welsh private law and to recommend reforms in this area of law. This work is vital to our ambition to maintain English and Welsh law as a global law of choice.

I also accept the second recommendation by the Law Commission to set up an expert group on control of digital assets. The Ministry of Justice has asked the UK Jurisdiction Taskforce, an expert group chaired by the Master of the Rolls that produces non-binding guidance on areas of legal uncertainty, to take forward this work as a body that already has an internationally credible voice in the intersection of the law and technology. I believe the UKJT is uniquely placed to convene the expertise needed to consider the issues around control of digital assets.

Finally, the report made recommendations to make statutory amendments to the Financial Collateral Arrangements Regulations and to set up a multidisciplinary project to formulate a statutory framework for the entering into, operation and enforcement of certain crypto-token and crypto-asset collateral arrangements. I understand that my colleagues in HM Treasury are reviewing these recommendations and will provide an update in due course.

[HCWS84]

Oral Answers to Questions

Heidi Alexander Excerpts

Tuesday 10th September 2024 Commons Chamber

[Steve Darling (Torbay) (LD)]

25. What assessment she has made of the implications for her policies of the backlog of cases in courts.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Heidi Alexander)]

It is good to be back. Mr Speaker.

The Government are committed to reducing caseloads and bringing waiting times down for court users across all jurisdictions. We continue to keep 18 Nightingale courtrooms open across eight venues, so that we have more physical capacity to hear cases in all jurisdictions. We plan to sit more than 105,000 days in the Crown court and more than 102,000 days in the family court this financial year, enabling us to work through as many cases as possible.

[Mr Brash]

Hartlepool’s court building has stood empty since 2017, after it was mothballed by the then Conservative Government. Will my hon. Friend investigate the potential for reopening Hartlepool’s court as part of our efforts to expand capacity and clear the backlog, and will she meet me to discuss the issue further?

[Mr Speaker]

You might want to reopen Chorley court, which is also empty.

[Heidi Alexander]

I hear you, Mr Speaker.

I welcome the question from my hon. Friend. He will know that His Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service keeps the court estate under regular review to ensure that it meets operational requirements. I am afraid there are currently no plans to reopen Hartlepool magistrates court, but I would be happy to meet my hon. Friend alongside officials from HMCTS to discuss his concerns. The reasons behind the increased caseload in our criminal courts are complex and multifaceted, but the number of courtrooms available is not the main constraint we currently face.

[Steve Darling]

Torquay magistrates court closed in the last decade, and therefore justice is served somewhat distantly from our communities in Torbay. Can the Minister assure the House that there will be some reviews to ensure that justice is served more locally to our communities in south Devon?

[Heidi Alexander]

I may be having another meeting, with the hon. Gentleman, as well as looking at the court in Chorley, and I am happy to discuss that matter with him.

[Rebecca Smith (South West Devon) (Con)]

11. What support her Department is providing to victims of domestic abuse.

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[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

13. What steps she is taking to help reduce the time taken for criminal cases to be heard at court.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Heidi Alexander)]

We are committed to ensuring the swift delivery of justice for victims at all stages of the criminal justice system, and we are working closely with various partners involved to achieve that aim. In relation to the courts, we plan to sit more than 105,000 working days in the Crown court this financial year, and we continue to hear criminal cases at Nightingale courts. We are also considering other measures to speed up justice for victims, and we will make further announcements in due course.

[Mr Kohler]

I thank the Minister for her answer. After waiting seven years for the Grenfell inquiry to report, the bereaved families and survivors have now been told that they must wait two or possibly three years for a decision on whether and whom to prosecute. As Martin Luther King said,

“justice too long delayed is justice denied.”

I understand from the Crown Prosecution Service, which I met recently, that much of the delay is for the discovery process, where the welter of digital information must be assessed. Can the Minister tell me what is being done to address these delays and whether things such as artificial intelligence are being contemplated?

[Heidi Alexander]

As the Prime Minister made clear, those affected by the Grenfell tragedy have already waited too long for justice. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that anything in my or my Department’s power that needs to be done will be done. The Government fully support the Metropolitan police and the Crown Prosecution Service as they complete their investigations and bring prosecutions to trial, while respecting their operational independence. I am sure the use of all forms of technology will be considered in that process.

[Sir Desmond Swayne]

Perhaps too many barristers have become politicians, but however caused, how will the Minister address the shortage at the criminal Bar?

[Heidi Alexander]

I hesitate to answer the right hon. Gentleman’s question, given that my boss is a former barrister—I say that we cannot have too many.

Only last week I discussed the adequacy of numbers of legal professionals in the Crown court with the chair of the Criminal Bar Association, Mary Prior, and I will be working with the profession to ensure not only that we are recruiting sufficient barristers to work in the courts, but that we are retaining barristers at the criminal Bar.

[Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab)]

Our team in Newport East are trying hard to raise the issue of how long cases are taking for constituents—we inherited those delays from the Conservatives—but even the CPS is taking months to answer basic queries about where the delays are in cases. Will the Minister urge the CPS to respond faster?

[Heidi Alexander]

I will take that away and do that.

[Douglas McAllister (West Dunbartonshire) (Lab)]

Does the Minister agree that a properly funded legal aid scheme both here and in Scotland is essential for access to justice, and that the decline in this vital public service that both the Tories and the SNP have presided over is nothing short of disgraceful?

[Heidi Alexander]

What we are experiencing is the very long tail of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012, which has meant that both the civil and criminal legal aid sectors have faced huge challenges. That is vital to people’s access to justice.

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[Joe Powell (Kensington and Bayswater) (Lab)]

T3. Over the weekend, Lord MacDonald, the former director of public prosecutions, warned that court backlogs and the complexity of any trials that may arise from a CPS decision in 2026 about the victims of the Grenfell fire may further delay justice. Could the Minister give us and the victims reassurance that the criminal justice system will not further delay justice for those victims?

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Heidi Alexander)]

As I said to the hon. Member for Wimbledon (Mr Kohler), we will do everything we can to ensure swift justice for the victims of Grenfell. We plan for the Crown court to sit for at least 105,000 days this financial year, and we will do more to increase the speed with which cases are heard in the Crown court.

[Bradley Thomas (Bromsgrove) (Con)]

T2. The Secretary of State has said that she will review her prisoner early release scheme after 18 months, but will she go further and commit to ending it then, and if not, to returning to this House for a fresh vote on it?

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[Steff Aquarone (North Norfolk) (LD)]

T6. The latest figures show that the court backlog sits at nearly 68,000. Every one of those cases means yet another individual victim or family waiting for justice. Despite that, the Government plan to cap the number of sitting days in our courts at a lower number than last year, losing 2,000 sitting days, which has drawn criticism from many, including the Bar Council. Could the Secretary of State tell me why those waiting for justice, including many in North Norfolk, are being forced to wait even longer?

[Heidi Alexander]

As I have said, the Crown court will sit for more than 105,000 days this financial year—an increase of 28% on the year before the pandemic. That means that there is more capacity in the Crown court this year than in six of the past seven years. We have inherited a criminal justice system on life support as a result of the previous Government, and we have a broken economy. Everyone can see the state of the public finances, and justice is not immune from that.

[Henry Tufnell (Mid and South Pembrokeshire) (Lab)]

In Pembrokeshire we have no local solicitors’ firms offering pro bono work, and the nearest free legal advice centre is in Swansea. Many of my constituents are therefore unable to access to justice, which is particularly distressing in the area of family law and care proceedings. What steps is the Minister taking to tackle the issue of legal deserts in places such as Pembrokeshire and west Wales?

[Heidi Alexander]

Access to justice is integral to a fair society, including for our rural communities. In our courts and tribunals, modernised services and a more effective use of technology can improve people’s access to the justice system, but I recognise that there is more to do and I am happy to meet my hon. Friend to discuss that.

[Monica Harding (Esher and Walton) (LD)]

T8. A significant proportion of the 1,700 prisoners being released early today, while having been convicted of other offences, have a history of domestic abuse. What reassurances can the Secretary of State give to domestic abuse victims who fear the release of their perpetrators today?

[Ben Goldsborough (South Norfolk) (Lab)]

A widow was prosecuted under the single justice procedure after her husband had passed away and the car tax expired. She was convicted over just £3.34, and the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency sent the letter to the wrong address. Will the Minister meet me to discuss how we can reform the single justice procedure to make it more accountable and ensure that there is better oversight of the process?

[Heidi Alexander]

I am very happy to meet my hon. Friend. I am also very keen that we keep under review what more can be done to support vulnerable defendants going through the single justice procedure, and to improve oversight and regulation of the organisations using that procedure.

[Siân Berry (Brighton Pavilion) (Green)]

T9. The harm done to families and women by incarcerating women is huge and made worse when they do not have safe homes after they leave. Some 47% of women are currently leaving prison without settled accommodation. This breaks up families and leaves them at risk of further exploitation and harm, often the same exploitation that led to their offending. Will Ministers tell the House what they are doing to ensure that every woman set to leave prison, including all those leaving early as a result of the Government’s reforms, is supported into safe and stable accommodation?

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[Manuela Perteghella (Stratford-on-Avon) (LD)]

Will the Secretary of State ensure that measures are put in place in the criminal justice system to support survivors of violence against women and girls, including mandatory training for prosecutors on understanding the impact of trauma on survivors and the release of court transcripts for free for victims of rape?

[Heidi Alexander]

The hon. Lady may know that we currently offer free transcripts of judges’ sentencing remarks to families of victims of fatal road offences, murder and manslaughter. In May, we extended free transcripts of sentencing remarks to victims of rape and serious sexual offences, in a year-long pilot. We will continue to look at how we can lower the costs of obtaining a court transcript.

[Harpreet Uppal (Huddersfield) (Lab)]

Former clients of the law firm SSB Law were unexpectedly pursued for adverse legal costs following the installation of defective cavity wall insulation. I understand that the Solicitors Regulatory Authority has opened an investigation. Will the Secretary of State review the situation urgently, including establishing a cross-Government working group on the matter?

[Heidi Alexander]

I am aware from correspondence that I have received, as the Member of Parliament for Swindon South, that there are significant concerns about the collapse of law firms such as SSB Solicitors, Axiom Law and McClure. As my hon. Friend said, the Solicitors Regulation Authority is looking at this, as is the Legal Services Board, and I shall be happy to speak to her further to provide an update.

[Sir David Davis (Goole and Pocklington) (Con)]

The Justice Secretary will be aware that the Criminal Cases Review Commission took 17 years to overturn the conviction of Andrew Malkinson, an innocent man, even though DNA evidence exonerating him was available from the fourth year; and his is not the only such case. Has the Minister any intention of addressing the resources, regulation and management of the CCRC to ensure that innocent people are not left incarcerated for many years?

[Heidi Alexander]

What happened to Mr Malkinson is appalling, both for him and for the victim of the crime. It is vital that lessons are learned. As the right hon. Gentleman will know, following the publication of the Henley review of the CCRC’s handling of Mr Malkinson’s case, the Lord Chancellor’s view is that the current chair is unfit to fulfil her duties. As for resources, the amount that the CCRC has received in recent years has risen, and we will continue to keep that under review.

[Will Stone (Swindon North) (Lab)]

As the Minister will know, one of the factors that can contribute to backlogs in courts is the existence of basic maintenance problems with the buildings, which prevents cases from being heard. In Swindon this year, we had a serious fire which resulted in one of the courtrooms being closed and cases being transferred elsewhere. What investment is being made in courts in places such as Swindon to ensure that justice can be delivered swiftly?

[Heidi Alexander]

I am very pleased to be responding to a fellow Swindon Member, and I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving me the chance to mention our home town during my first ministerial outing. I should add that I am also grateful to local judiciary court staff and justice stakeholders for their work in maintaining justice during that incident in Swindon. As the Lord Chancellor said earlier, ensuring that buildings are maintained effectively is critical to the delivery of justice.

[Alicia Kearns (Rutland and Stamford) (Con)]

My constituent was brave enough to report her husband for the abuse that he put her through. He has just been released from prison on two conditions: he would be tagged and he was not allowed to go into her village. He has not been tagged because the Probation Service says that it does not have enough tags and there is a technical fault, and he entered her village on his first day out of prison, staying overnight. He was on her street, and his family knocked on her door. Will the Secretary of State please respond to my letter about my constituent, who feels extremely vulnerable? Will she also confirm that there are enough tags, and that in cases such as this there will be not just a verbal warning—which is all that her husband received for his actions—but remedial repercussions?

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Heidi Alexander Excerpts

2nd reading: House of Commons
Monday 11th September 2017 Commons Chamber

[Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab)]

I will be voting against the Bill tonight because it is a thoroughly bad piece of legislation. It is unprecedented in the powers it gives to Ministers, it fails to guarantee all the rights and protections currently enjoyed by individuals and businesses in the UK, and it paves the way for a Minister to sit behind a desk in Whitehall and take us out of the single market with the stroke of a pen.

On the most important issue facing this country—our continued membership of the single market—the Bill could mean no direct vote in Parliament, no say for MPs and no voice for our constituents. When we talk about a power grab, it does not get much bigger than that.

I say this to Ministers: should the Bill pass its Second Reading tonight, I will table amendments to ensure that it is Parliament, not Ministers, that determines whether we come out of the European economic area. As currently drafted, the Bill repeals the European Economic Area Act 1993, the law that incorporates the EEA agreement into British law.

The European economic area, as all hon. Members will know, contains the countries of the EU plus Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein. The EEA is a way to stay in the single market while being outside the EU; it is a way to maintain ease of trade while being outside the jurisdiction of the ECJ. I may prefer to stay in the single market by remaining in the EU, but that horse has bolted. I am a realist, and I recognise the result of the referendum, but I will not hand over all the cards to Ministers to determine how we leave.

The repeal of the EEA Act in part 2 of schedule 8 and the provisions set out in clause 8 are likely to be used by Ministers to claim they have parliamentary authority to notify other contracting parties to the EEA agreement of the UK’s intention to leave the single market. Ministers could claim the Bill authorises them to make a written withdrawal notification, in line with article 127 of the EEA agreement, despite that not being in the Bill. That is not good enough. Just as we had an Act of Parliament to trigger article 50 of the Lisbon treaty, we should have an Act of Parliament to trigger article 127 of the EEA agreement.

The EU and the EEA are two different things governed by two different agreements. Surely the withdrawal of the UK from an international agreement, not least one that could hold the key to our continued membership of the single market, should be a decision for every Member of this House. Irrespective of whether we believe the country should be out of the single market, in it for a transitional period or in it indefinitely, how can that not be a decision for this Parliament? It was not decided in the referendum last year. The words “single market” were not on the ballot paper. Anyone who claims that they were is simply interpreting the referendum’s outcome.

Let us not forget that when the Prime Minister put her extreme Brexit plan to the electorate this year, she could not win a majority. The idea that we allow this Bill to fudge it, and that we leave it to Ministers to decide our fate without recourse to Parliament, would be a democratic disgrace of the highest order.

Our continued membership of the single market, along with our ability to stay in the European customs union, is the most important issue for our country. It is about jobs and trade, but it is also about tackling austerity and investing in our schools and hospitals. If we crash the economy on the altar of concerns about immigration and sovereignty, our public finances will be hit and the cuts of the last seven years will pale into insignificance.

I understand Ministers’ desire to create a functioning statute book, but I want a functioning economy and a functioning democracy as well. I am not prepared to cede major decisions on our country’s future to the Prime Minister, her three musketeers and whoever comes after them. I am not prepared to let a hard-line Tory obsession with immigration determine our future prosperity. And I am definitely not prepared to legislate to exclude myself and, for that matter, every other Member of the House from having our say on behalf of our constituents.

Transpeople (Prisons)

Heidi Alexander Excerpts

Friday 20th November 2015 Commons Chamber

[Andrew Selous]

I know Frances Crook well, and I listen to what she says. We try very hard to provide appropriate and decent care for every prisoner. We are reviewing the policy, but, as I said earlier, we are prepared to learn. We want to get this right, and we will take on board all that Members have said today.

[Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Today you allowed me to put an urgent question to the Secretary of State for Health for the second time in two months, and for the second time in two months he did not bother to turn up. Can you advise me whether a Secretary of State is normally expected to attend the Chamber when an urgent question is put by his or her counterpart? Can you also advise me on how we can get the Secretary of State out of his bunker in Richmond House so that he can answer legitimate questions put by Members?

[Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con)]

Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker.

Immigration Statistics

Heidi Alexander Excerpts

Friday 28th November 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mike Penning]

As one of my colleagues sitting next to me has just said, that is absolutely spot on. If we have a Conservative Government, people will get the referendum that everybody in this country deserves. I am 57 years of age, and I have never had an opportunity to vote on our membership of the EU. I look forward to being able to do so.

[Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab)]

This September, I asked in a written parliamentary question how many individuals had been granted limited leave to remain with no recourse to public funds in each year of the past decade. I was told that the Home Office could not tell me. In March 2012, in another written parliamentary question, I asked how many people were subject to deportation or removal proceedings, broken down by local immigration team area. I was told by the Home Office that it could not tell me. That is basic information. Why cannot the Home Office give me the answers?

Oral Answers to Questions

Heidi Alexander Excerpts

Tuesday 11th November 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Vara]

Again, I am disappointed that the hon. Gentleman did not listen to what I said earlier. [Interruption.] I am answering the question; it would help if the hon. Gentleman listened to the answer. As I said, we had a consultation in July, and we put forward proposals. We listened to people who made submissions —we listened hard—and we did not go ahead with proposals that would have been of benefit to the insurers. Which bit of that does he have a problem with?

[Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab)]

7. What steps he plans to take to ensure that people have access to justice regardless of ability to pay.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Shailesh Vara)]

The Government’s reform programme to promote access to justice aims to deliver a simpler justice system that is more accessible to the public. It aims to limit the scope for inappropriate litigation and the involvement of lawyers in issues that do not need legal input, and to support people in resolving their disputes through simpler, more informal remedies.

[Heidi Alexander]

The Minister will know that since this Government took the axe to legal aid, the number of litigants in person has been on the rise, clogging up the courts, costing time and costing money. How many more people defended themselves in court in the first six months of this year compared with the same period in 2010?

[Mr Vara]

The hon. Lady will be aware that there have always been litigants in person, even before the legal aid reductions. The Government are putting in place measures to assist those people. Moreover, judges are working with us to ensure that they are assisted. We will continue to monitor the position and give assistance to people who are acting as litigants in person.

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[Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab)]

Last month the Minister of State, the right hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes), called on the Government to launch a full review of family law and justice for children. Has he since been sat on by the Lord Chancellor or can he now stand up at the Dispatch Box and formally announce his review?

[Simon Hughes]

I have not been sat on and I work collaboratively with all my colleagues in the Department. We are committed not only to talking about these things but to doing things. Last month, we introduced a whole set of new provisions that give support to people in the family courts. We have added legal aid for people going to mediation and now for the first mediation. We are reviewing what further steps we can take, and there will be further announcements in due course.

Oral Answers to Questions

Heidi Alexander Excerpts

Tuesday 9th September 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Vara]

The hon. Gentleman raises a good point. That exchange of ideas is happening, and we are encouraging it to happen more.

[Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab)]

10. What steps he is taking to reduce reoffending.

[The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling)]

Overall reoffending rates have barely changed over the past decade. Under our transforming rehabilitation reforms, we will draw on the best services from across the public, private and voluntary sectors in order to deliver better rehabilitation support to more offenders, reduce the number of potential victims and make our communities safer. For the first time in recent history, virtually every offender released from custody will receive statutory supervision, rehabilitation and mentoring support in the community.

[Heidi Alexander]

A4e recently pulled out of a £17 million contract to deliver education and training in London prisons. It has been suggested that one reason for that is staff shortages so severe that there are not enough officers to escort prisoners to classes. If prisoners who want to learn cannot even get to the classroom, what does that say about the Government’s so-called rehabilitation revolution?

[Chris Grayling]

All I can tell the House is that the scenario painted by the hon. Lady is completely untrue.

Criminal Justice and Courts Bill

Heidi Alexander Excerpts

Tuesday 17th June 2014 Commons Chamber

[James Morris]

Whatever the statistics, the essence of the point is that the threat of and culture created by judicial review has had a distinct impact. Before becoming a Member of Parliament, in my previous life as chief executive of Localis, the local government think-tank, I spoke to many local authority leaders and chief executives about the way the judicial review culture that now surrounds local authorities was impacting on their decision making. As my hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst pointed out, it has created to some degree a culture of risk-aversion in local authorities. A bureaucratic layer has been added to the taking of often very important decisions that have big impacts on local communities, resulting in long delays. One example is the politically controversial decisions taken on the potential closure of care homes in many different local authorities. The impact of the threat of judicial review is now being perceived as part of the decision-making process, and that has had a detrimental impact on the quality of some community services.

[Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab)]

As someone who served on a local authority for six years, I have to say that I do not recognise the picture the hon. Gentleman is painting. Does he not agree that the risk of judicial review can lead to thorough, considered, well thought-out decision making and does not necessarily result in a slowing down of and delay to the process?

[James Morris]

Nobody is arguing that there is not an important balance to be struck, taking into account, as others have pointed out, the importance of democratic accountability for decisions taken. Nobody is arguing that judicial review has no role to play in this context, but there is a strong argument to be made about where the culture that has developed is leading. I speak regularly to local authority chief executives, and it is having a very detrimental impact on local authorities’ ability to make long-term decisions.

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[Sir Edward Garnier]

I broadly agree with what the hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) said, but equally I have agreed with much of what other people have said. The short response to the problem that we have set ourselves is that we simply do not know the answer, and we are struggling to find it by passing legislation of one sort or another. Despite the enthusiasm of my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield North (Nick de Bois), I am not at all convinced that the new clause provides us with the answer in discouraging youngsters from carrying knives; he concentrated mostly—in fact, entirely—on knives.

I am not persuaded either that the default position, as possibly indicated by the hon. Member for Islington North, is that a community sentence is the right answer. There will be cases where it is imperative that the offender should be sent to prison, and for a very long time, but by and large that will be when the knife has been carried in order to commit a crime that is then carried out. The Stephen Lawrence case ended up with murder. Other cases have ended up with crimes such as those under section 18 of the Offences Against the Person Act 1861. Serious offences are committed by knife carriers, but they tend to be convicted and sentenced for the greater crime that they go on to commit with the knife.

As I said, my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield North argued his case with huge enthusiasm. I suppose it is possible to be enthusiastically right. I also suppose that it is equally possible to be enthusiastically mistaken, and it may be possible to be enthusiastically wrong. Perhaps we need to be a little more understanding of the absence of certainty in what we are advocating or proposing.

My hon. Friend said that one in four offenders had not received a custodial sentence for possessing a knife. Of course, we do not know—he did not know—what had led those people to be brought to justice and convicted. He was not able to tell me what the facts of the case were, what the profile of the defendant was, what the mitigations were, or the surrounding circumstances that led the court to give a long custodial sentence. Until we know those things, we really cannot make an intelligent assessment of whether it is appropriate to give somebody a minimum sentence of six months if he is over 18 or four months’ detention and training if he is between 16 and 18.

I am also concerned that new clauses 6 and 7 concentrate not only on knives or “bladed articles”, but on “offensive weapons”, so a whole new swathe or category of offenders would be caught and possibly subjected to minimum sentences, removing the discretion of the judge to deal with the case based on the facts. A judge in a given case may well think it appropriate to give someone carrying an offensive weapon for the second time a custodial sentence, possibly for much longer than six months. There is a let-out, however, in the mandatory sentencing arrangements passed over the past decade or so; under new clause 6, new section (2B) would allow the mandatory sentence not to be passed if there are circumstances that

“relate to the offence or to the offender, and…would make it unjust to do so in all the circumstances.”

We simply do not know how that is going to bite on this particular set of offences.

I understand that the Government Front Benchers will abstain on the new clause. If it is accepted, I urge the Government to be cautious and take into account my view that most of the difficulties involving the possession of knives are caused not by those over the age of 18, or even by those between the ages of 16 and 18—although some are—but by much younger teenagers, who are not caught by the new clause. Had my hon. Friends addressed that point, I might have had a little more sympathy with what they are no doubt genuinely trying to achieve. However, what we have here is neither fish nor fowl.

I urge the Government not to be swept up by the enthusiasm of some of my well motivated hon. Friends. If we are to pass legislation and amend the criminal justice provisions that deal with the possession of an offensive weapon or a bladed article, a lot more thought needs to go into it before it hits the statute book.

[Heidi Alexander]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. and learned Member for Harborough (Sir Edward Garnier). I share some of his concerns, but not all of them, and I have arrived at a slightly different conclusion. He is right to say that there is a degree of uncertainty, but one of the things we need to consider when deciding how to vote on the new clause is the message it sends not just to those who may be caught up in knife crime, but to the victims of knife crime and their families.

Like the hon. Member for Enfield North (Nick de Bois), I represent a London constituency and I know how our communities are scarred by the use of knives. Many of my constituents live with loss as a result of knife crime. The House needs to demonstrate how seriously we take the issue with regard to not just sentencing, but, as the hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) said, all Government action to address the problem. That means preventive work as well as work at the other end of the process.

I have been a Member of Parliament for the past four years, and I have been struck when the Prime Minister has stood at the Dispatch Box on a Wednesday to talk about the fallen soldiers who have given their lives in conflicts. During those four years, I have met the families of a number of young men who have lost their lives thanks to knife crime. I do not necessarily make a comparison between the circumstances involved, but I think it is important for me to read out the names of the young men in my constituency who have been killed as a result of knives. In March 2012, Kwame Ofosu-Asare was stabbed to death in Brixton. In August 2012, Nathaniel Brown was stabbed to death in Downham. In September 2012, Kevin Ssali was stabbed as he got off a bus in my constituency. Those are the names just of my constituents; sadly, many other young people in London have lost their lives as a result of knives.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

I want to support and amplify what the hon. Lady is saying. The families of people who have lost sons serving in uniform abroad at least have the great satisfaction of knowing that their boy—or their girl—has died in the service of their country, but the families of someone knifed on the streets of Lewisham or any other London borough have no such satisfaction or support for their grief. I totally support her intention in making such an analogy.

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[Heidi Alexander]

I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman. People sometimes assume that those killed as a result of knife crime are themselves involved in gang culture, but that is not always the case. It is very important to put on the record that innocent lives can be taken away by the use of knives.

It is important for the House to be clear that carrying knives and committing offences with them is completely and utterly unacceptable. New clauses 6 and 7 may help us do that. Although they do not in any way represent a complete solution, we owe it to those who have lost their lives and their families to treat the issue with the seriousness that it deserves.

The hon. Member for Cambridge suggested that there is somehow a choice between being tough in sentencing and spending money to prevent people from getting caught up in gang culture and the use of knives. That is a false choice—we need to do both.

I recognise that the issue is very difficult. I have met young people in my constituency who tell me that they carry a knife to make them feel safe, while some have heard stories of young people being asked to carry a knife for somebody else. There is some logic to the argument that some people who end up committing crimes with knives are victims in some ways, as well as perpetrators. Young people in my constituency are concerned about their safety. I may feel safe when I walk the streets in Lewisham, but when I have gone to meet children in our schools—they do excellent work with some of the community groups set up to tackle this problem—it has been brought home to me that there is a real issue, and that we need to find a way to take knives off our streets.

Some young people carry knives because they think that it is glamorous, but the vast majority of young people in Lewisham do not carry knives. If young people know that the second time they are caught carrying a knife they will face a mandatory custodial sentence, that will be an important lesson. I recognise, however, that some discretion still exists for judges to consider exceptional circumstances.

I am interested in what happens to an individual when they receive a mandatory custodial sentence and go to prison for committing their second knife-related offence. I am reminded of the comments of my constituent, Barry Mizen, the father of a young man murdered on the streets of Lewisham—not as the result of a knife, but through a wholly different set of circumstances. When he talks about how we should tackle violence on our streets, the question of rehabilitation and what happens to people when they go to prison, he says something very powerful: “I’m less interested in how long someone goes to prison for than in what comes out at the end.”

--- Later in debate ---

[Jeremy Wright]

As the hon. Lady will understand, I will not have a chance to sum up this debate, so I will respond now, if she will forgive me. I hope that she will look carefully at our “Transforming Rehabilitation” proposals. Part and parcel of those proposals is that young and older people should have support that starts before they leave custody and sees them through the prison gate and out into the community. Many people who receive sentences for the knife crime offences that she is describing have custodial sentences of less than 12 months. As she will appreciate, no licence or rehabilitation automatically applies to such sentences at the moment. We have already changed that and the “Transforming Rehabilitation” proposals will support that.

[Heidi Alexander]

I am grateful to the Minister for those remarks. However, most people would still agree that the level of reoffending in our society is too high. I am pleased that the Government are taking those positive steps, but I know that he will agree that there is still much more to do.

To conclude, this is a difficult issue but, on balance, I believe that the new clauses tabled by the hon. Member for Enfield North should be supported in the Division Lobby this evening. I will certainly support them.

[Stuart Andrew (Pudsey) (Con)]

I confess that I had intended to make only a short intervention today. However, having listened to the debate, I feel that it is better to make a longer contribution—although it will still be short, if that makes sense.

I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield North (Nick de Bois) for the work that he has done. I fully back the new clauses that he has tabled.

During the general election campaign, I was contacted by a constituent, a lady called Lorraine Fraser, with whom I have worked over the past four years. Her story is really quite harrowing. She had a 16-year-old son called Tyrone. One day, she was alerted to a problem outside the house. Sadly, she discovered that her son was being attacked by a gang of 30 youths. One of them was carrying a knife and stabbed him fatally. At the age of 16, he lost his life. In Lorraine’s own words, Tyrone was not always the best of boys, but he was always a considerate young man. It is really sad that he lost his life on that tragic day.

What has struck me is that, in the face of such a horrific experience, Tyrone’s mother has gone on to campaign tirelessly to do something about knife crime so that there is not another case like Tyrone’s somewhere else in the country. One thing that she has always asked of me and of Parliament is that we get a bit tougher in our rhetoric and our work on knife crime. I believe that new clause 6 is badly needed. I have seen some of Lorraine’s campaigning work, and I have been with her in schools when she talks to young people, telling them about the dangers of carrying a knife. Sometimes the answers she gets back from those young people are shocking.

I stand here today not in support of a newspaper or as a knee-jerk reaction, but because some of those young people will say that they want to carry a knife to defend themselves, and they know there will be no consequence of that because too often people get away with it. Lorraine is constantly battling the system, and I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Minister who has worked tirelessly with her. She is extremely grateful for the support he has given.

It was recently 10 years since Tyrone was killed, and Lorraine held a service in a church in the centre of Leeds. People from across the city—certain areas in particular—came along to remember members of their families who have lost their lives. To sit in that church and listen to people talk about their fathers, sons, brothers and nephews was a difficult experience. One young boy spoke about his father. He did not really know him because he had been murdered thanks to gang crime. The boy pleaded with the Government to do something. He said that people in their community were doing their bit to try to get across the message about the dangers of carrying a knife, working with young people and engaging with them in the schools, but he wanted the Government to do something about knife crime. I am grateful that my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield North is providing us with an opportunity to do that.

Even today on the news I saw a former gang member saying that for too long the Government have been too soft on this issue, and we need to come up with some serious consequences to stop the temptation to carry knives. I do not believe that people do not listen to the messages that come from this place; I think they get the message that the consequences are too soft, and we must send a much clearer message. Carrying a knife can totally destroy not only the life of the person who carries it, but the life of a young person such as Tyrone, and the lives of family members, as I have seen with Lorraine. For her sake, and for the sake of others around the country, I will be supporting the new clause.

Offender Rehabilitation Bill [Lords]

Heidi Alexander Excerpts

Tuesday 14th January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hanson]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for raising that matter, which just exacerbates and adds to our concerns.

The process is never a precise one. I want the Minister to justify—perhaps not today nor by agreeing to new clause 1, but through a proper parliamentary procedure or the evaluation of pilots—how his proposals for a radical change in the probation service will do what he wants, as well as what my hon. Friends and I want, which is to reduce offending and reoffending. My worry is that the Minister’s proposals—in many ways, they are adjacent to the provisions in the Bill—might increase the reoffending that may occur for reasons that have been mentioned.

I urge the Minister to consider new clauses 1 and 4 in particular, and to publish, for the House to scrutinise, the basis on which he has so far made decisions in relation to the 2007 Act.

[Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to follow my right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson). He has great expertise in this matter, given his previous ministerial role. I am not sure that I will trouble the Minister with the same level of detail about the proposals. I want to make a short speech on some of the things I have learned about how the probation service operates in my area and about the need for us in Parliament to have a vote on whether the wholesale privatisation of the probation service should go ahead.

In recent weeks, I have visited Lewisham probation trust and met its staff. The Lewisham trust is very busy. It ranks fourth among London boroughs with respect to the complexity and risk of the cases with which it deals. A quarter of the cases it deals with involve young people aged between 18 and 25.

When I spoke to staff, they expressed very serious concerns about the plans to fragment and break up the probation service and, indeed, to privatise great chunks of it. They believe that the proposals actually endanger some of the important and innovative work they are doing. For example, they recently set up a specialist team to deal with the problem of young offenders, whereby staff time is split between the youth offending service and the probation staff so that the two services join up better. They told me that the proposals the Government wish to force through in the next year will lead to huge upheaval and massive duplication, and will make it less likely that the work that is so important in our community for reducing reoffending is moved forward and can bring about the outcomes we all want.

The management of the trust told me that instead of being externally focused on reducing reoffending and protecting the public, over the next couple of months their priority will be to support staff through the transition and to make sure that they move cases between the split services in a way that ensures that no cases are lost and no mistakes are made. That does not make sense to me. The priority for the management and those with experience should be to ask, “How do we reduce rates of reoffending out there in the community?”

What will happen when the case load is split? As I understand it, 70% of the cases will be dealt with by community rehabilitation companies and others will be left with the new national probation service. How will those really difficult decisions be made about the risk that such young offenders present? The people who work in the probation service tell me that such judgments, particularly those about young people, are very difficult to make.

[Jeremy Wright]

The first point I want to make to the hon. Lady is that the proposals we are discussing do not cover young offenders, but only adults. The second point is one that I made earlier, but I am not sure whether she was in the Chamber at the time. It is that in relation to risk assessments and the judgments she describes—I accept that they are difficult—such judgments will be made by employees of the national probation service, who are public sector employees.

[Heidi Alexander]

I fear that the Minister may have misunderstood me. When I spoke about young people, I meant those between 18 and 25. As I understand it, the proposals in the Bill relate to that age group.

Another point that has been made to me by probation staff in Lewisham is that one key to the reduction of reoffending relates is having stable relationships between probation staff and the individuals with whom they work, so that they can build trust and work together to achieve the things that will put those young adults on to a better path in life. If young people are transferred between different organisations because their risk fluctuates, I wonder how there can be that stability in such relationships that I am told is so crucial to the reduction of reoffending.

Some Government Members, particularly the hon. and learned Member for Harborough (Sir Edward Garnier), seemed to suggest that the Opposition have some ulterior motive for saying that we want to pilot the schemes and to have a vote in this House before these very significant proposals go ahead. I want to put it on the record that our interest in this debate is public safety, what is effective and what works. They ascribe to us motives that simply do not represent our position. We are advocating what is in the best interests of the public and asking how we can really get to grips with reducing rates of reoffending, which are far too high in our country.

[Jeremy Wright]

May I begin by endorsing entirely what the hon. Member for Darlington (Jenny Chapman) and the right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) said about Paul Goggins? Paul was the first Minister I went to see as a newly elected Back Bencher. I was struck not only by his command of the brief, but by his inherent kindness, his reaction to somebody who was not of his party and his willingness to give me whatever assistance he could. That continued throughout the time that I knew him in this House. As others have said, he will be missed on a personal level by a great many people on both sides of the Chamber. It is right for us to recognise today that he will be missed in debates such as this. The lack of his warmth and wisdom on these subjects and many others will make our debates all the poorer. I know that we will all miss him in the Chamber more generally.

We have had an interesting and informed debate on this group of new clauses. There is no doubt that the substantial burden of the debate on the Bill has been not about the contents of the Bill, which are broadly uncontroversial, but about the wider reforms that surround the Bill. I understand why that is. It might therefore be helpful if I spend a little time dealing with what is at the heart of the Government’s reforms to probation and why we believe they are so urgent. That will relate to the issue of piloting, which has been raised this afternoon.

Protecting Children Online

Heidi Alexander Excerpts

Wednesday 12th June 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Vaizey]

That is very important. As I have mentioned, Visa plays a role with CEOP. No credit card company would say that it was actively encouraging or supporting people to download images of child abuse. If the hon. Gentleman has specific examples, he should bring them to my attention. The credit card companies have an important and helpful role to play on this issue and many others, including piracy, and we must continue to work with them.

[Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab)]

The Minister will know that many Members from all parts of the House have been interested in online safety for young people for a long time. Does he agree that it is slightly perverse that this country has legislation that gives courts the power to order ISPs or websites to remove material that is defamatory or that contravenes copyright, but no powers for the courts to deal with serious issues such as online child pornography or incitement to violence, which have a devastating impact on people’s lives?

[Mr Vaizey]

Companies that use the law to block sites that support pirated material seek an injunction through pre-internet copyright law. As has always been the case, what is illegal offline is also illegal online. People can therefore use existing law to attack sites. As I have said, the Internet Watch Foundation does block access to sites that host child abuse images.