Surveillance Camera Commissioner: Annual Report

Nick Hurd Excerpts

Monday 8th January 2018 Written Statements

[The Minister for Policing and the Fire Service (Mr Nick Hurd)]

My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has today laid before the House a copy of the 2016-17 annual report of the Surveillance Camera Commissioner, as required by section 35 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. The report is available from the Vote Office and will also be published on the Commissioner’s website.

The Surveillance Camera Commissioner is an independent role appointed under section 34 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 to encourage compliance with the surveillance camera code of practice, review the operation of the code, and provide advice about the code (including changes to it or breaches of it).

The current Commissioner is Tony Porter, whose term of appointment is set until 10 March 2020.

[HCWS392]

Policing

Nick Hurd Excerpts

Tuesday 19th December 2017 Commons Chamber

[The Minister for Policing and the Fire Service (Mr Nick Hurd)]

With permission, Mr Speaker, I will make a statement on police funding.

Today, I have placed in the House the provisional police funding settlement, detailing how much money each police force in England and Wales will receive in 2018-19. This amounts to a year-on-year increase of up to £450 million across police forces for 2018-19. Taken together with the continued scope to improve police efficiency and the existence of £1.6 billion of police reserves, this represents a comprehensive settlement that makes sure that the police have the resources they need.

Before taking decisions on the settlement, I have spoken to every police force in England and Wales. I have listened to police and crime commissioners, chief constables and frontline officers, asking them to be completely upfront with me about the challenges that they face, and they were. I have been on patrol with officers on the streets of our city centres and I have visited firearms teams and projects to support the most vulnerable in society.

What is very clear to me is that demands on police forces are changing. Crimes traditionally measured by the independent Crime Survey for England and Wales have fallen by well over a third since 2010—I hope the House will welcome that—but, at the same time, it is clear that there is a shifting pattern of demand on the police. There are more victims of high-harm, “hidden” crimes such as domestic abuse, modern slavery and child sexual exploitation, as well as more victims of cyber-crime coming forward. That willingness to come forward is to be welcomed, but it does put pressure on policing, to which we must be sensitive. Alongside this, terrorist attacks in London and Manchester have served as a reminder of the very real and changing threat that we face from terrorism. As a Government, we are acutely aware that the demands facing our police forces are considerable and changing. That is why this Government made the decision to protect police funding in the 2015 spending review and it is why, today, we are proposing a settlement for our police that will increase funding for police forces by a further £450 million in 2018-19.

Let me break this down. We propose that police forces get the same cash grant from the centre as in 2017-18. On top of that, we want to respond positively to requests from PCCs for more flexibility around the levels of police precept, so we propose empowering them to raise council tax contributions for local policing by £1 a month per household—£12 a year. If they all use this flexibility, that will result in a £270 million increase in the money that we invest as a society in our policing system.

Five attacks in London and Manchester darkened our spring and early summer. Thirty-six people died, 10 of whom were children. The first responsibility of Government is to keep our country and its citizens safe. It is also to protect our way of life and the values that we hold dear. We are clear that we must ensure that counter-terrorism police have the resources they need to deal with the fast-changing and increasingly challenging threat from terrorism. That is why we are also increasing the counter-terrorism policing budget by £50 million in 2018-19. That will mean that the counter-terrorism policing budget will go up by 7%, to at least £757 million next year.

We are also providing an extra £130 million for national priorities such as investment in digital technology and special grants to help forces with exceptional costs. I hope that the House will agree that it is right that the Government continue to provide crucial investment in police technology to make sure that the police have the modern digital infrastructure they need to protect the public, and it is right, surely, that we increase funding for the police special grant so that we can support the police with exceptional and unexpected costs such as the responses to this year’s terrorist attacks. However, to fully meet public expectations, the police cannot simply rely on this additional investment; that is just one part of the equation. Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary and fire and rescue services is clear that there are more opportunities to increase productivity and efficiency, and so are we.

Forces have already achieved significant savings from better procurement since 2015, but there is a lot more to do. I want to see forces unlocking more than £100 million-worth of opportunities for commercial savings that we have helped them to identify. Forces must work together to increase their buying power by procuring goods together, rather than buying them in 43 different ways.

We want modern police forces to make the most of the opportunities that digital technology brings—better information and decisions, faster processes and more productive police officers. Striking research indicates that if all forces took advantage of mobile working as the best forces do, that would mean that an average officer could spend an extra hour a day on the frontline. Extrapolating from that, in theory this has the potential to free up the equivalent of 11,000 extra officers across England and Wales. The Government are committed to meeting the challenges of embracing digital technology and improving productivity, and we want policing to do the same.

The police still hold more than £1.6 billion in financial reserves, compared with £1.4 billion in 2011. The figure has gone up. Current reserves held represent 15% of annual police funding to police and crime commissioners. There are wide variations between forces with Gwent, for example, holding 42% and Northumbria holding 6%. We propose to improve transparency around reserves so that the public are clear whether they are being held for good reasons. That is why we will toughen the guidance on the information that police and crime commissioners must publish, and we will provide comparable national data on police and crime commissioner financial reserves. If the police make substantial progress on efficiency and productivity in 2018, I should signal that the Government intend to provide police and crime commissioners with a broadly similar settlement in 2019-20.

To support this process of reform, police forces will benefit from the £175 million police transformation fund in 2018-19. Since its inception in 2016, the fund has already invested £220 million in policing projects, including £8.5 million for forces to better tackle modern slavery and £40 million to help the police to improve their response to serious and organised crime. It is clear that the fund, led by police, is delivering real results and enabling forces to invest in transformation and digitisation for the future.

I end by recognising the exceptional attitude and hard work of our brave police forces around the country. We have listened to their concerns, and we have now proposed a funding settlement that will strengthen the police’s ability to fight crime and keep us all safe. Whether it is local forces or counter-terrorism capabilities, this is a comprehensive settlement to strengthen the police now and make forces fit for the future. We will now consult on the police grant report and I look forward to hearing views from across the House. I commend this statement to the House.

[Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) (Lab)]

The test of the Government’s police funding proposals is the impact they will have on policing and counter-terrorism activity on the ground. The Minister can spin a convincing story here in the Chamber, but will what he is announcing really enable police forces to meet the challenge and reality of modern policing?

The Minister says that he has been listening to chief constables and police and crime commissioners. The Opposition would contend that he has not been listening hard enough. Is the Minister aware that we have seen the highest annual rise in police recorded crime for more than a decade? That includes an 18% rise in violent crime, a 26% rise in the murder rate, and a rise in knife and gun crime that is of particular concern to our major cities. Is he aware that the public are increasingly conscious that austerity is as damaging to policing as it is to other public services, because we cannot keep people safe on the cheap? Is he further aware that although the Government’s announcement that they are lifting the police pay cap is welcome, they have not funded it, so it must therefore put even more pressure on police budgets?

Is the Minister aware that police leaders all over the country are expressing their concern about the funding gap? He spoke about the scope for increasing police efficiency. Many forces including my force, the Metropolitan police, have done a great deal on police efficiency. He spoke about embracing digital technology. I recently met the chief constable of Greater Manchester police, who briefed me on the great work it is doing with digital technology. The Minister also mentioned reserves. I must say that it defeats many police leaders to understand why the Government think that they can meet recurrent expenditure out of reserves.

All in all, the Opposition doubt whether this package—even including the Government’s proposals on the precept—will really meet the policing challenges of the 21st century. This is why the chief constable of Merseyside is warning that he does not have the resources to fight gun crime and the chief constable of Norfolk is warning of the reduction in the numbers of neighbourhood police officers. The chief constable of Lancashire has stated that people are “less safe” because of the money and people “taken out of policing”, and Northumbria’s chief constable has said:

“If the day of not being able to provide a professional service was here, I would say. It is not here, but it is getting very, very close.”

Is the Minister confident that his funding settlement will allow forces to remain at current staff levels? And can he give an undertaking that there will be no more cuts to police numbers?

[Mr Hurd]

I know that the right hon. Lady has been on a bit of a personal journey in her relationship with the police, having previously called for the police to be dismantled and replaced with our own machinery of class rule. We welcome her journey.

The right hon. Lady accuses me of not listening to the police, even though I have spoken to every single police force in England and Wales to fully understand the pressures they face. Before criticising the proposed settlement without investigating the details, I suggest that she speak to the PCCs, who have welcomed it. If she had done her homework, she would also be aware that our demand review was worked out in co-operation with the police-led review. That asked for a similar amount of new investment in 2018. This Government have listened to the police, and we are talking about an increase in investment of £450 million.

The right hon. Lady referred to us doing policing on the cheap. That will come as a bit of a surprise to the British taxpayer, given that as a society, we will be investing £13 billion in our police system next year. That is up from £11.9 billion in 2015-16. She chides me on reserves. Let us remind ourselves that reserves are public money sitting there, and the public we serve have the right to better information about how the police intend to spend that money for the public good.

The right hon. Lady talked about what the proposed settlement means for police officer numbers. She knows that the position of the Government is that our responsibility is to ensure—in close consultation with the police—that the police have the resources that they need. It is for local police and crime commissioners and local chiefs to determine how those resources are to be allocated. That feels like the right approach.

[Theresa Villiers (Chipping Barnet) (Con)]

In deploying the substantial new resources for counter-terrorism, does the Minister agree that the police should include a strong focus on cyber-crime because of the harm and disruption that terrorists could do with this form of activity?

[Mr Hurd]

I thank my right hon. Friend for making that point. If there is a powerful symbol of the change in the pattern of demand on policing, it is how much crime is now digitally enabled. We know from our constituencies how vulnerable our constituents are; they are many times more likely to be vulnerable to a crime online than they are on the street. That is part of the change in policing that we have to respond to, which is why we have just under £2 billion-worth of investment earmarked for cyber-security.

[Gavin Newlands (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (SNP)]

I thank the Minister for prior sight of the statement.

Let me be charitable and start by welcoming one aspect of the statement, namely the £50 million increase in counter-terrorism resources. However, I echo entirely the sentiment of the right hon. Member for Hackney North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) that, given the huge pressure on the police service in England and Wales, a flat-cash core settlement from the Government is simply not enough. In doing so, I pay tribute to all police officers right across the UK for the hard and oftentimes dangerous work they do to keep us safe.

Just last week, the Scottish Government Cabinet Secretary for Finance, Derek Mackay, committed to increasing the police authority’s Government-allocated budget in real terms in 2018-19—a clear difference from the approach taken by this Government. In March 2017, there were 32 officers per 10,000 population in Scotland, compared with around 21 officers per 10,000 population in England and Wales—over one third more police officers per head keeping Scots safe.

In Scotland, public confidence in the police remains strong. Recorded crime is at a 42-year low, recidivism is at a 16-year low and police clear-up rates are the highest for 40 years. That is all while, in the words of Calum Steele, the general secretary of the Scottish Police Federation, UK Government cuts

“have put almost immeasurable financial stress”

on public services, including the police. He went on to highlight the fact that the police VAT relief could have been delivered with the stroke of a political pen, and that inaction put further unnecessary stress on police funding.

Following a sustained SNP campaign, we welcomed the Chancellor’s announcement in the Budget that Police Scotland and the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service will be eligible to reclaim VAT in the future. However, in the spirit of today’s statement, will the Minister commit to requesting that the Chancellor also reimburse the £125 million already taken from frontline police services in Scotland so that it can be used for future reinvestment in Scottish policing?

[Mr Hurd]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his reply. It is fair to say that there are mixed views across Scotland about the benefits of merging all the forces into one, and time will tell. However, I thank him for his welcome for the additional £50 million for counter-terrorism policing.

The hon. Gentleman talks about a flat-cash settlement. It is no such thing; we are talking about an increase of £450 million in investment and, at the local police level, a move, effectively, from flat cash to flat real.

The hon. Gentleman talks about cuts. Again, he is allowed his own opinions, but he is not allowed his own version of the facts. Overall, public investment in policing will grow from £11.9 billion in 2015-16 to £13 billion next year if these proposals are accepted by the House. That is not a cut in my language.

[Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con)]

As a London MP, may I start by paying tribute to the officers who do an extraordinary job of keeping us safe in London?

The Minister will know that, since 2015, the Met has received £2.5 billion of direct funding. There is more funding for London in today’s settlement, there is the opportunity to raise £43 million and there is an extra £50 million going into counter-terrorism. Does the Minister agree that it is time the Mayor started playing his part by protecting frontline numbers at police stations?

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[Mr Hurd]

I thank my hon. Friend. As a fellow London MP, I join him, as I am sure will all London Members, in congratulating Met police officers on the work they do. He singled out the implications of this settlement for the London Met, which is rightly the best-resourced police force in the country in terms of numbers of police officers and funding per head.

My hon. Friend is right about his fundamental point, and it is one that the Labour party refuses to embrace. We operate a system in which accountability for police forces is devolved and rests with the police and crime commissioner or the Mayor. In London, that means the Mayor, and I would gently suggest to the Mayor that the combination of this increased investment, the reserves and the opportunities for greater efficiency means that what we need to see from him is action rather than more letters calling for more money.

[Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) (Lab)]

I would just ask the Policing Minister to confirm that a flat-cash grant to local police forces in fact means a real cut, given the level of inflation; that the money from central Government to police forces will be cut in real terms; and that while the counter-terror funding is welcome, the police chief Sara Thornton has warned:

“Fewer officers and police community support officers will cut off the intelligence that is so crucial to preventing attacks.”

I gently say to him that I am sure he must know in his heart of hearts that this is really not enough funding for police forces across the country, given the immense pressures they face. He and the Home Secretary will really need to make a much better case to the Chancellor; otherwise, they will be threatening the good work of police forces right across the country.

[Mr Hurd]

I hesitate to correct our very distinguished Chairman of the Select Committee—for whom I have great respect—and I welcome the welcome she has given to increased investment in counter-terrorism policing, but I do need to correct what she said. Once she has time to get into the details of the settlement, she will see that, in effect, we propose to move from flat cash at local police force area level to flat real, on Treasury assumptions. That is a significant shift. When she gets into the detail of it, she will see—[Interruption.] No, I am afraid that the cries from Opposition Front-Bench Members reflect the fact that they have not had time to read the statement or to understand the dynamics of the police funding settlement.

The right hon. Lady will know, or should know, that, in the context of the 2015 police funding settlement, there are two components to flat cash at local police level: one is the grant from the centre, and the other is the precept. In the context of increased precept, the cash from the centre would have fallen. It is not going to fall; it is going to be held flat. That means that, in terms of what police and crime commissioners would have expected for 2018-19, there is a £60 million upflip from keeping the grant from the centre flat, rather than reducing it, which is what would have happened under the 2015 settlement. It is complicated, but the right hon. Lady will see from the—[Interruption.] That is not being disingenuous; these are the facts.

[Mrs Maria Miller (Basingstoke) (Con)]

Hampshire’s constabulary, under the excellent leadership of Olivia Pinkney, does a fantastic job in meeting the changing policing needs my hon. Friend talked about. However, what has not changed is the need for frontline policing. What can he do to make sure that more of the money he has talked about today gets to the frontline to increase the frontline policing our constituents so badly want to see?

[Mr Hurd]

I wholly endorse my right hon. Friend’s praise for the work of Olivia Pinkney, as the chief of Hampshire. The short answer to her question is that it is the local police and crime commissioner who is accountable for how resource is allocated. If it is the local view that more resources need to go into frontline police officers, that is something the police and crime commissioner has to respond to. Our duty is to make sure that police forces have the resources we think they need to do the job. How those resources are allocated at a local level is the responsibility of the democratically accountable police and crime commissioner.

[Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)]

What an extraordinary exercise in spin. The statement says very clearly: “We propose that police forces get the same cash from the centre as in 2017-18”, so that is a real-terms cut from the centre. Will the Minister explain, given the additional pressures on South Wales police politically—with Cardiff being a capital city, and the pressures that that places on police in Cardiff and the Vale of Glamorgan—whether we will be getting any additional support?

[Mr Hurd]

I hesitate to correct the hon. Gentleman, but I am afraid that, once those on the Labour Benches take a bit more time to understand how the police settlement actually works, they will know that the flat-cash settlement is a combination of precept and the grant from the centre. Taking those in combination, local police forces are going to move from a situation of flat cash to flat real. That is a significant change. If the hon. Gentleman bothers to go and talk to his local PCC, which I am sure he will, the PCC will explain it to him.

[Giles Watling (Clacton) (Con)]

I thank my hon. Friend for this very encouraging statement, particularly around flexibility in the police precept—an issue he knows I have been campaigning on for some time. However, will he confirm that the settlement will dramatically improve policing across Essex and particularly on my much overlooked sunshine coast at Clacton-on-Sea?

[Mr Hurd]

I thank my hon. Friend and other Essex colleagues who were very forceful and constructive in coming to me with clear endorsements from police and crime commissioners across the system for the proposals on increased flexibility on precepts so that democratically accountable police and crime commissioners have the freedom to increase local taxes for local priorities. Roger Hirst, an excellent police and crime commissioner, has surveyed several thousand people in Essex. The results of that survey show that what we are proposing today will be extremely acceptable to the people of Essex because they want to see more investment in their policing, and that is what this settlement will deliver.

[Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab)]

Were I still a police and crime commissioner, I could not maintain the same level of policing on this budget, and the Minister must know that. The reality is that with inflationary pressures in general terms and the need to fund a legitimate police rise, and, on top of that, the increasing demand for policing services, it simply is not possible to maintain public safety. He really has got to stand up and tell the public the truth. This is not a fair settlement.

[Mr Hurd]

Again, I hesitate to correct someone who knows what he is talking about, but the hon. Gentleman is talking as though this settlement is proposed in complete isolation. He and Labour Front Benchers are ignoring the fact that we work closely with police chiefs and the PCCs. The independent review that the PCCs and chiefs undertook, independently of Government, came to a very similar conclusion about what was needed in terms of funding for 2018-19. We have listened to them and delivered on that. It is their view that we are most interested in.

[Lucy Frazer (South East Cambridgeshire) (Con)]

I welcome more funding. Does the Minister, like me, recognise that Cambridgeshire has done an outstanding job in introducing 50 new recruits at the same time as making efficiencies?

[Mr Hurd]

I certainly join my hon. and learned Friend is supporting the work that Cambridgeshire has done, under excellent leadership. The evidence of that is in its HMIC rating of “good”. I know that it will welcome the increased investment and put that money to good use. Labour Members still do not seem to accept the maths; I know that that is not their strength. The maths says that an increase in investment of £450 million is in fact an increase.

[David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

I am sorry, but I need, for my simplistic mind, to have some clarity on the Minister’s statement that forces will get the same cash from the centre as in 2017-18. It may be that North Wales police’s precept goes up and my local council tax payers pay more in a hard-hit area, raising perhaps less than in Surrey, but at the same time we have, according to my chief constable, a 35% increase in crime, an 18% reduction in staff, and £30 million of savings already made. This settlement is simply not good enough. Speaking as someone who was Policing Minister when we had 21,000 more police officers than now, I say to the Minister that he needs to go back to the drawing board.

[Mr Hurd]

I would suggest that the former Policing Minister talks to his PCC, who will explain why a flat-cash grant from the centre is actually an improvement on what he or she was expecting. I will leave them to explain that. The right hon. Gentleman talks about reserves. I come back to the fundamental point. It is public money—£1.6 billion, a figure that has gone up since 2011. There is a very good reason for holding reserves, but we need more transparency and accountability about local police plans to use what is ultimately public money.

[Kit Malthouse (North West Hampshire) (Con)]

I welcome the Minister’s announcement of £130 million for national priorities. Can he confirm that dealing with online child abuse is a national priority, and therefore that the Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre and the National Crime Agency will be receiving more resource to help them to combat this growing menace?

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[Mr Hurd]

I can certainly agree that it is a national priority because of its increased prevalence in public life. It is something that matters a great deal. The Minister for Security, who is sitting alongside me, and I continue to make sure that the NCA is properly resourced to do that work.

[Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op)]

Residents in Walthamstow are deeply perturbed following a rise in violent gang and drug-related crime, and the evidence from the Met commissioner herself that London is losing 3,000 police officers in the coming years. No mobile app is going to address that. It is individuals, not iPads, that people want to see on their streets. Can the Minister confirm that he will make available to the Met the money needed to keep those 3,000 police officers, or is “flat real” a crime against the English language?

[Mr Hurd]

No. I am a fellow London MP and I have spoken to the commissioner. Any PCCs or police chiefs making projections about losses of officer numbers in future are doing so on the basis that they do not know what the police funding settlement is. I expect and hope that when they look at what we are proposing today in terms of new investment—and it is new investment, given the continued scope for efficiencies and the level of reserves—they will see that there is no reason why any police force should be reducing officer numbers. However, it is ultimately a local decision.

[Oliver Dowden (Hertsmere) (Con)]

Community-based policing is the cornerstone of policing in Hertsmere and has a much valued role. I welcome the flexibility that the Minister has shown over the precept. However, what reassurance can he give me that community-based policing will be properly funded in small towns such as Potters Bar that might be disadvantaged relative to larger urban areas?

[Mr Hurd]

I thank my hon. Friend for welcoming an increase of £450 million in our policing system next year. That feeds down into an additional £6.2 million for Hertfordshire. I absolutely take his point about community policing. He needs to have that conversation with David Lloyd, the excellent police and crime commissioner.

[Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD)]

The Met commissioner and Sara Thornton have both said that tackling terrorism places a heavy burden on all aspects of policing. At the last general election, the Liberal Democrats called for the Government to spend £300 million extra on community policing. How much more does the Minister think will be spent on community policing to enable officers to assist with tackling not only terrorism but antisocial behaviour, violent crime, and domestic violence?

[Mr Hurd]

Again, as a fellow London MP I say to the right hon. Gentleman that our role is to propose a settlement that we think is comprehensive in making sure that the police have the resources they need to do the job against the background of a shifting pattern in demand. It is a very complex environment. With regard to London, which has the best resourced police force in the country, I am satisfied, as a London MP, that the Met has the resources it needs. If the Mayor, as the police and crime commissioner, disagrees with that, he has his own resources to contribute as well, which he has been very reluctant to do. How those resources are allocated to some of the priorities that the right hon. Gentleman mentions is a decision for the Mayor and the Met on which they are both accountable to us as MPs and the constituents we serve.

[Amanda Milling (Cannock Chase) (Con)]

I welcome my hon. Friend’s statement, particularly in giving PCCs more flexibility regarding the levels of the police precept—a measure that Staffordshire MPs and our police and crime commissioner, Matthew Ellis, have been calling for. Does he agree that giving police and crime commissioners more flexibility and power regarding the precept is ensuring that PCCs are making decisions about funding that they are democratically accountable for?

[Mr Hurd]

I could not agree more. One of the great reforms that we have made in policing is to make sure that there is much more local accountability on the performance of the police. I thank my hon. Friend for welcoming precept flexibility. She is quite right. Matthew Ellis and other police and crime commissioners have been very vocal in pressing for this because they want that flexibility in order to be able to deliver on their crime plans.

[Vernon Coaker (Gedling) (Lab)]

What universe is the Minister living in? We have seen nearly 40% of police stations cut over the past seven years, thousands upon thousands of police officers cut, police community support officers cut, and police staff cut, and now we see a rise in violent crime. He refuses to acknowledge in his statement that it is proposed that police forces get the same cash from the centre as in 2017-18—a real-terms cut. That is what is going to happen to police forces like my own in Nottinghamshire and those up and down the country.

[Mr Hurd]

The universe I am living in is the real one, where public resources are tight and we have to proceed on an evidenced basis. Labour is giving the same old response: more money, more money—whoops, we ran out of money. It is the same as ever; it never changes. When Labour Members read the detail and understand how this works, they will see that we are proposing a combination of things that will result in an increase of £450 million in our investment in our policing system.

[Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con)]

The Minister knows that I have set out my concerns about the capacity of Bedfordshire police in person with him, and in an Adjournment debate. I am grateful for the extra £2.9 million in the statement for Bedfordshire police, but will he explain more fully what he sees as the future of the force?

[Mr Hurd]

May I place on record my admiration for the tireless work that my hon. Friend has done over many years, through a cycle of many Policing Ministers, to advocate for a fairer funding settlement for Bedfordshire? I thank him for his welcome of today’s settlement, and he will note the increase in counter-terrorism policing. In the written ministerial statement, he will see information about the direction of travel of the fair funding review, which we think is most appropriately dealt with in the next spending review.

[Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab)]

Before I ask my question, Mr Speaker, I wonder whether you have noticed that although the Minister handed out his statement to us, he did not hand out the table containing details of the settlement? Of course, he was hoping that we would not get it so that we would not notice that in Durham, for example, the change in cash is less than inflation and less than the pay rise. Therefore, there will be more cuts on top of our previous loss of 350 police officers.

[Mr Hurd]

The table to which the hon. Lady refers is attached to the written ministerial statement. [Interruption.] If that is not the case, I will investigate. I think Opposition Members are failing to distinguish between the oral statement and the laying of the grant formula, which has happened in parallel. They can find that table.

The hon. Lady is lucky to represent a constituency that is served by an outstanding police force. She will find that as a result of this settlement, if the PCC maximises precept flexibility, the cash increase for the force will be around £2.4 million. When Opposition Members get into the detail, they will see that the Government’s intention is to make sure that if local police and crime commissioners maximise their precept flexibility, forces will move from flat cash to flat real. Hon. Members will see that in the written statement.

[Mr Speaker]

Further to the observation with which the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman) prefaced her question, I think the correct position is that the table to which reference has been made, and which some Members have been ostentatiously brandishing, is electronically accessible but I am advised that it was not delivered either to the Library or to the Vote Office. I think it would help in these matters, particularly where complex formulae are involved, if the material could be available at the time of the commencement of the statement. I do not wish to dwell on the matter further. The Minister has said what he has said, and I thank him for saying it.

I call Mr Richard Grosvenor Plunkett-Ernle-Erle-Drax.

[Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con)]

Thank you, Mr Speaker. I think I shall demand an urgent question if this continues.

I thank my hon. Friend for the increase in police funding, but I would be failing in my duty if I did not speak up for the funding of Dorset police, which has been underfunded for years. Does my hon. Friend agree that although things such as cyber-crime are taking police officers off the streets—the police are doing a wonderful job—we need to keep a uniformed presence on the ground, because that is where the deterrent is most effective and the intelligence is gathered?

[Mr Hurd]

Mr Speaker, may I place on record the fact that I note your earlier remarks?

I thank my hon. Friend for recognising the changes that have occurred in society. I know for sure that my constituents are much more vulnerable to crime online than they are when they walk up and down Ruislip high street, and our policing needs to respond to that. I also understand the importance that our constituents attach to seeing the police on our streets. Getting the balance right around capabilities is the job that we have given to police chiefs and democratically accountable local police and crime commissioners. I thank him for welcoming the increase in investment, and I am sure that he will make representations to his police and crime commissioner about the allocation of the additional resources.

[Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)]

Given the huge number of A and B council tax band properties in Birmingham, is not the reality of the proposals that the poorest people in Birmingham are going to pay the most for a declining police service, in what is becoming the worst-funded police force in the country?

[Mr Hurd]

The hon. Gentleman and I, along with other west midlands MPs, had a constructive conversation about the challenges of policing in the region. I simply do not see how local people will be worse off, as he is trying to suggest, from an increase of £450 million in investment in our police system next year, including an additional £9.5 million for the West Midlands police. I do not see how he can, with any real integrity, present that as downgrading the police force.

[John Howell (Henley) (Con)]

I am sure the Minister will join me in congratulating Thames Valley police on its outstanding ranking in the police effectiveness, efficiency and legitimacy review. Will he also tell us how the funding settlement takes into account the needs of rural policing?

[Mr Hurd]

My hon. Friend makes an extremely important point, and I join him in congratulating Thames Valley on its outstanding rating, which I know it takes great pride in. Rural policing is extremely important to many constituents. I come back to the central point, which is that we have devolved accountability and responsibility in the police system. The allocation of new resources and new investment in our policing is a conversation to be had with the local democratically elected police and crime commissioner. I know from personal conversation that they take the matter extremely seriously.

[Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab)]

Will the Minister clarify that we are talking about a real-terms fixed amount for police and crime commissioners’ budgets, and that in reality we are taxing the most vulnerable more to pay for those services? The PCC is saying to me that the top-slicing will lead to a reduction in policing on our streets.

[Mr Hurd]

I encourage the hon. Gentleman to go back and talk to his PCC and police chief. The reality of our proposal is that we will increase investment in our police system by £450 million next year, and that we will work towards broadly the same kind of settlement in 2019-2020. That is a reflection of our recognition that demand on the police has changed and become more complex. We have to respond to that and invest accordingly. The basic rule is that public investment comes from two sources: extra borrowing and taxation. That is the choice in the real world in which we live.

[Mrs Kemi Badenoch (Saffron Walden) (Con)]

rose—

--- Later in debate ---

[Mrs Badenoch]

I and several other Essex MPs requested more flexibility in the application of the precept, and we welcome the Minister’s statement. Does he agree that it is a good example of the Government devolving power to local communities and giving them more control over their own policing?

[Mr Hurd]

I do, and I will go further than that. The statement is an exercise in demonstrating that the Government have listened closely to the police. We have challenged the police, but we have listened to them, and our proposals are very similar to what they asked for. That fact has been ignored by Labour Members. We have listened to police and crime commissioners, who have said, “We would like to increase investment and be empowered to increase local investment in local priorities, and we would like more flexibility around the precept because we think that we can present that to our people.” They have tested that idea in surveys and encountered a very positive reaction from the public.

[Paula Sherriff (Dewsbury) (Lab)]

The legacy of the Government’s cuts means that there are fewer officers per head than at any time on record. Can the Minister explain how that is making communities in my constituency safer?

[Mr Hurd]

Let me say two things to the hon. Lady. Let us attack the fake news that cuts are being made to police funding. The amount of public investment that we make, as a society, in our police system will have grown from £11.9 billion in 2015-16 to £13 billion next year if these proposals are accepted. I do not see how that can possibly be presented as a cut. When she has digested the news, I hope she will also welcome the increased investment for her area, and that she will discuss with her local police and crime commissioner how these additional resources can best be allocated for the benefit of her communities.

[James Cartlidge (South Suffolk) (Con)]

Of course, the money to pay for more police has to come from somewhere. I am happy to accept the principle that communities choosing to have more resource should pay more towards it, but the proviso must clearly be that they definitively see more warranted officers. Does my hon. Friend accept that in counties such as Suffolk, communities are clear that they want such officers to have a more visible presence in our villages and rural areas, as well as in our towns?

[Mr Hurd]

I thank my hon. Friend for his question, and I completely understand his point. He has made it very strongly to me, and I know he will make it very strongly, as he has done, to the Suffolk police and crime commissioner and the chief constable if that is what he thinks his constituents need.

On my hon. Friend’s point about local taxation, I should say that no decision about increasing council tax precepts is taken lightly. This Government take a lot of pride in what we have done over many years in trying to keep council tax as low as possible, which is in stark contrast to the approach of Labour Members because it doubled under their watch. Even in these difficult times, we feel the proposal of an additional £1 a month to get more investment in local policing is acceptable to the public, not least because PCCs have tested it.

[Graham P. Jones (Hyndburn) (Lab)]

I do not believe the Minister’s argument is well served when there is an absence of facts in the discussion in this Chamber, and perhaps the information in the tables should have been provided. In Lancashire, we have rising crime and falling budgets. Nationally, we have lost 21,000 police officers. This is a simple question: in 2018-19, will there be more officers on the beat or fewer officers on the beat under this Government?

[Mr Hurd]

Again, the hon. Gentleman has not been listening. He will know that he needs to ask the police and crime commissioner that question. He can ask the Lancashire police and crime commissioner what he is going to do with the additional £6.1 million of investment proposed as a result of this settlement and, by the way, what he is doing with his reserves—currently worth 18% of net revenue, which is above the national average. I suggest the hon. Gentleman has such a conversation with his local police and crime commissioner.

[Vicky Ford (Chelmsford) (Con)]

Essex police officers do an excellent job—we are already delivering mobile working and joint working with the fire service—and it is certainly not sitting on a hidden stash of reserves, but we are one of the lowest funded forces in the country. Being able to raise the precept will deliver an extra £8.8 million, which is a helpful start. Next year, will the Minister look at fairer funding models, so that lean and efficient forces such as Essex police are not put at a disadvantage?

[Mr Hurd]

I thank my hon. Friend, and I join her in congratulating Essex police on its work. Essex is excellently led at both PCC and chief constable level, and she is quite right to point out that it has a relatively low level of reserves, at 8% of net revenue compared with a national average of 15%. I can give her a twofold assurance. She will see in the statement that there is an intention to work towards broadly the same type of settlement in 2019-20, which will allow additional precept flexibility for Essex. We are also clear in the statement that the work on the so-called fair funding review is not lost; we just feel that the most appropriate point at which to revisit it is in the context of the next spending review.

[Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab)]

What the Minister has done today is to pass the buck from the Government to local police and crime commissioners. He has done this at a time when the West Midlands force has lost £145 million in real terms in the past seven years, and 200 officers are no longer there to keep the public safe. Does the Minister not accept that if the tables were turned, and Conservative Members were in opposition facing a Government who had cut police numbers by over 20,000, they would be screaming about the injustice of it from the rooftops?

[Mr Hurd]

I am puzzled by the right hon. Gentleman’s attitude, because we are talking about an increase of investment for West Midlands of £9.5 million for 2018-19, if the local police and crime commissioner maxes the precept flexibility. I cannot see how that can be a cut. He will also be aware that his force, which is excellently led, is relatively rich in terms of the reserves it holds. They are worth 20% of its net annual revenue, a number that has actually grown. He will have lots to raise in his conversations with his police and crime commissioner and chief constable about how this increased investment can benefit his community.

[Wendy Morton (Aldridge-Brownhills) (Con)]

Today’s announcement is welcome news, and I am pleased to hear that the Minister has spoken to and listened extensively to police authorities and PCCs, including in the west midlands. I am grateful to him for taking the time to enable me to raise some of the issues in my constituency regarding frontline policing and our Remembrance Day parades, which are so important to us. Does he agree that this extra investment and greater flexibility for police and crime commissioners will allow them to support all of our local communities, including those in my constituency?

[Mr Hurd]

I thank my hon. Friend, and I again place on the record that she has been tireless in her advocacy on behalf of her constituents and in challenging me about police resources. I hope that she will welcome the additional investment in her police force, if the police and crime commissioner maximises the precept flexibility, and she will be looking forward to holding the PCC to account on how those resources are allocated.

[Wes Streeting (Ilford North) (Lab)]

Londoners are absolutely sick and tired of the spectacle of Tory MPs crying crocodile tears in their local papers about police station closures, and then coming to the House to cheerlead the cuts that make them necessary, but perhaps that is why London Tory MPs are an endangered species. Is not what the Minister has announced today the worst of all worlds? He is asking people to pay more in taxes, he is cutting support from central Government and he is still not giving the police the funding they need to tackle the crime that is blighting our communities.

[Mr Hurd]

Now the hon. Gentleman has got that entirely artificial rant out of his system, let us examine the facts. The proposals to close police stations are controversial in London, but they are the decisions not of the Government but of the democratically elected—as it happens, Labour—Mayor, and he is accountable for that. The Mayor has got most such decisions wrong, but I see he is changing many of them—he certainly is in my area—and I congratulate him on doing so. The fact of the matter is that the Metropolitan police, and I speak as a London MP, is relatively well resourced compared with the rest of the system.

[Wes Streeting]

Get real!

[Mr Hurd]

The hon. Gentleman tells me to get real, but the reality is that if we look at the performance of the London Met now as compared with 2008, there are—on the latest figures I have seen—100,000 fewer crime incidents and broadly the same number of police officers, and it is £700 million a year cheaper for it to run the policing system. In his world, those are cuts; in my world, they are efficiencies. The Met does a great job and is on a journey to becoming even more efficient, and this funding settlement, with the increased investment for it, will help it to do so.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

Will the Policing Minister confirm that his settlement gives an extra £3.5 million to Northamptonshire police, which is an increase of 2.9% against a national average of 2.4%, and therefore represents further good news for a police force that is rated good for efficiency and has been busy recruiting new police officers?

[Mr Hurd]

I thank my hon. Friend for that, but his is not the only force that is recruiting more police officers. His force also stands out as one of the most effective in maximising the benefits of collaboration with other blue light services. I thank him for welcoming the additional £3.5 million of investment in the local policing system, if the PCC maximises his precept flexibility.

[Gerald Jones (Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney) (Lab)]

Despite the dedicated work of officers in Gwent police and South Wales police—my constituency covers parts of both forces—the pressure on frontline policing is greater than it has been for many years. Under the heading “Additional Rule 1” in the documents published today, South Wales police will face a reduction of £13,416,000 and Gwent police, which is one of the smallest forces, will face a reduction of £917,247. That is a cut—a reduction. It is less money whichever way the Minister tries to dress it up. With the Office for National Statistics saying that visible policing is lower than it has been in many a year, how can the Minister justify the Government’s position that they are keeping this country safe?

[Mr Hurd]

Again, I refer the hon. Gentleman to table 1 on the “Provisional change in total direct resource funding compared to 2017/18”—I apologise to Labour Members if they do not have it to hand—which tells me that, if the proposals are accepted, and they are out for consultation, South Wales will see an additional £6.7 million cash increase in investment; and Gwent, which we should note is sitting on reserves worth 42% of its income, will receive a cash increase of £3 million. Again, I do not see how that can be a cut in anyone’s language.

[Matt Warman (Boston and Skegness) (Con)]

Lincolnshire’s police and crime commissioner tells me that he considers the precept changes to be very good news, so I welcome the Minister’s statement. Can he confirm that the unique challenges faced by large, rural and sparsely populated counties, such as Lincolnshire, will be addressed by additional money for digital transformation?

[Mr Hurd]

Lincolnshire police are a good example of a force that feels under a great deal of pressure at the moment, so I am glad that the PCC has welcomed the settlement, as most have. I am sure that Labour MPs, when they talk to their PCCs and chiefs, will recognise that this settlement is better than many of them expected. My hon. Friend’s point about digital transformation is absolutely fundamental, and Lincolnshire police is a leader in that regard. I remember sitting around a table in the police headquarters listening to a young officer talking about how mobile working and the platform that has been developed there has transformed the force’s efficiency and productivity. I repeat my previous statement about the amount of police officers’ time that can saved by embracing the full digital potential. The Government are determined to support the police in achieving that.

[Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)]

The Minister has visited Durham’s outstanding police force. He has said that he is listening to chiefs and to police and crime commissioners. Both Ron Hogg, the Labour PCC, and Mike Barton, the chief constable, have raised with him a particular problem that Durham has, which is that 50% of our properties are in band A, so relying on precept to cover the hole that has developed as a result of cuts to central funding is not a long-term solution for Durham. With pay increases and inflation, it will mean a cut in policing in Durham. Before he tells me that they have to become more efficient and work better, let me tell him that they have done all that and been rewarded for it. Can he suggest what the long-term solution is for forces, such as Durham’s, that have that problem?

[Mr Hurd]

I know that the hon. Gentleman has not seen the table, but it shows that if the proposals are accepted and the PCC does what we are empowering him to do, Durham will receive a cash increase of £2.4 million next year. I suggest that he goes back to Mike and Ron and asks whether that is helpful, because I suspect that the answer will be yes.

[Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con)]

I look forward to studying the Minister’s proposals in detail. Suffolk constabulary is an efficient force, but it is historically underfunded and faces a whole variety of modern-day pressures, such as responding so quickly to the incident at RAF Mildenhall yesterday. Can the Minister confirm that he will continue to work with the PCC, Tim Passmore, and Suffolk MPs to put the funding of Suffolk police on a sustainable, long-term footing?

[Mr Hurd]

Yes, I can give that undertaking, and I am more than happy to maintain that conversation with the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) as well. I have visited Suffolk police, as I have visited Durham police, and had conversations with Suffolk MPs. I know that the settlement is a step on a journey, which is why we are keen to signal the direction of travel for 2019-20 in the written statement, but the facts of the matter remain: this represents an increase of £450 million in investment in our policing system in England and Wales. I hope that colleagues across the House, once they have digested that, will welcome it.

[Dan Carden (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab)]

The stark reality in Merseyside is that we have lost 1,000 police officers and £100 million from our budget, and we have rising crime—violent crime and gun crime. Merseyside MPs have lobbied Ministers time and again to deal with the financial problems in our police force. Our chief constable, Andy Cooke, has described the force as being “stretched to the limits” in a way he has never seen before. Are the Government really proud of their record on protecting British citizens on our streets?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Hurd]

We are proud that crime has fallen by a third on our watch. I recognise—because I have visited the force and spoken to Andy personally—that Merseyside police, like many police forces across the country, clearly feel very stretched at the moment. That is why, having done this review, we have gone back, looked at the settlement, listened to the police and the PCCs, and come forward with proposals that will increase investment in the policing system by £450 million, including an additional £5.2 million for Merseyside next year, if the PCC maximises his flexibility.

[Paul Scully (Sutton and Cheam) (Con)]

The Mayor of London took the decision to cut the policing budget by £38 million this year, while stockpiling reserves that are equivalent to 10% of funding and overseeing an increase in serious crime. I welcome the statement, which will allow the Mayor to reverse that decision and allow the increase for Metropolitan police funding by up to £43 million. Does the Minister agree that this shows that with the Conservatives people get good results and sound management, and that with Labour they get neither?

[Mr Hurd]

I agree. Labour MPs are chuntering about tax increases, but when they call for more investment, where do they think it will come from? I was accused earlier of passing the buck. The reality—I know that the Labour party does not like it—is that we have changed the model so that the public can see clearer lines of responsibility and accountability for the performance of their police service, and in London that means the Mayor. Instead of sitting in his bunker writing letters asking for more money, the Mayor should get out there and tell us what he is doing to implement his crime plan.

[Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab)]

Two thousand West Midlands police officers have gone. Crime is up by 15%. There have been nine stabbings and shootings in Erdington in recent months. Pensioners are afraid to go out at night. Shopkeepers are saying that people are increasingly afraid to come out and shop at night. They all had hoped that their voice would be heard by the Government. A flat-cash settlement delivering £9.5 million will come nowhere near the £22 million that West Midlands police needs in order to stand still. That will mean further reductions in police numbers and betraying the first duty of any Government, which is the safety and security of their citizens.

[Mr Hurd]

I am not sure whether the hon. Gentleman is welcoming the additional £9.5 million of investment or not. We had a very sensible and constructive conversation with the rest of the west midlands MPs, and I think that he knows in his heart of hearts that when he goes back to speak with his chief and his police and crime commissioner, they will tell him that it is a better settlement than they expected.

[Tom Pursglove (Corby) (Con)]

I welcome the Minister’s statement, his engagement with police and crime commissioners across the country and the policing innovation we are seeing in Northamptonshire. Is he, like me, pleased that this Government did not adopt the approach of cutting the policing budget by 10%, which Opposition Members were arguing for not that long ago?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Hurd]

That certainly was recommended by a previous shadow Home Secretary—he was more moderate than the current shadow Home Secretary, who is on record as saying that she wanted to dismantle the police. I thank my hon. Friend for welcoming the settlement, and I am sure that he will have constructive conversations with his PCC about how the additional £3.5 million will be spent next year in the best interests of his constituents.

[Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab)]

My constituents have seen what this Government have meant for local policing: fewer officers on their streets and crime on the rise. Will the Minister confirm that even though he must know that council tax is highly regressive, he is asking those same constituents, many of whom are low paid or on fixed incomes, to pay more while he will not provide a penny more and central Government grant is falling in real terms?

[Mr Hurd]

I hesitate to challenge a local MP, but the fact of the matter is that Nottinghamshire police is one of a number of forces that intend to increase officer numbers next year. The hon. Lady talks about tax, and of course this is a hugely sensitive issue, but we should not lose sight of the fact—I have not said this before—that it is not mandatory for PCCs to impose this increase if they feel that it is not the right thing to do; it is about flexibility. In reality, because many of them have tested it—she will have her own view in Nottingham as to whether an additional £1 a month for investment in local policing is an acceptable proposition—each area will have a different view on that.

[Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab)]

I have never heard so many Tories come into the Chamber and welcome a council tax increase. The look on the Minister’s face while he has been standing at the Dispatch Box—if he walked down the street, he would be stopped and searched. He has one hand in the pocket of every single citizen in this country, and he is telling them that they will see an increase in funding for their police, but they have to pay more tax for it. That is exactly what he is doing, and he is making the poorest in our communities pay for it. The Metropolitan police has been cut by £1 billion since 2010, under the Tories and the Liberal Democrats. Is he suggesting that we put a precept on council tax to backfill that hole? Crime is increasing and police numbers are down to the lowest they have been in 20 years. What is he going to do about that?

[Mr Hurd]

The hon. Gentleman simply articulates the problem with the Labour party: year after year and decade after decade, the answer is always more and more money with no understanding of where it comes from. There is no such thing as Government money—it is taxpayers’ money. The only way to increase investment in policing, which is what we all want to do, is to either increase borrowing or increase taxation. As he will see, this settlement increases investment from the centre by £130 million. We are enabling locally accountable police and crime commissioners to go to their public and say, “Will you give us an extra £1 a month to invest more in our local policing?” I suspect the answer will be yes.

[Holly Lynch (Halifax) (Lab)]

Further to my hon. Friend’s point, the Minister will be well aware of the really significant variation in the money that can be raised through the precept, which often means that some of the forces with the greatest need are able to raise the least. What is the Minister planning to do to help to reconcile some of those imbalances so that we can meet demand?

[Mr Hurd]

I welcome the hon. Lady’s contribution. She is extremely thoughtful on police matters and has done great work over the years on the “Protect the protectors” agenda. I hope she welcomes the additional £8.9 million that her force should see next year. She raises a thoughtful point. It is a complex system. There are some forces whose ability to raise precept is low, or whose historical precept levels are low. That often reflects historical political decisions, which I cannot do anything about at the moment. She will notice that this has been structured in terms of an additional £12 rather than percentages, which has been the historical route. There is a reason for that: it advantages slightly those forces that have low precepts.

[Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP)]

The Minister was kind enough to acknowledge the bravery and hard work of police officers right throughout this country, but far from looking at the financial settlement for next year, serving police officers in the Police Service of Northern Ireland have yet to learn of their pay award this year. Given the political difficulties in Northern Ireland, will the Minister at least engage with the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland and stand up for policemen right across this country?

[Mr Hurd]

I am certainly happy to speak to the Secretary of State about that.

Law Enforcement Co-operation and Border Control: Schengen Information System

Nick Hurd Excerpts

Tuesday 19th December 2017 Commons Chamber

[The Minister for Policing and the Fire Service (Mr Nick Hurd)]

I beg to move,

That this House takes note of European Union Documents No. 15812/16, a Proposal for Regulation of the European Parliament and of the Council on the use of the Schengen Information System for the return of illegally staying third-country nationals, and No.15814/16, a Proposal for a Regulation of the European Parliament and of the Council on the establishment, operation and use of the Schengen Information System (SIS) in the field of police co-operation and judicial co-operation in criminal matters, amending Regulation (EU) No 515/2014 and repealing Regulation (EC) No 1986/2006, Council Decision 2007/533/JHA and Commission Decision 2010/261/EU; agrees with the Government’s decision not to opt in to proposals on the use of the Schengen Information System for the return of illegally staying third-country nationals; and further agrees with the Government’s decision not to opt out of proposals on the establishment, operation and use of the Schengen Information System in the field of police co-operation and judicial co-operation in criminal matters.

I thank the European Scrutiny Committee for calling this debate, which is about the EU’s second-generation Schengen information system, known more commonly as SIS II. I am also grateful to the Committee for the report it published last Friday to inform our debate tonight. I expect that many of the points made in that report will be raised this evening. In any event, I will reply formally to the Committee in writing.

SIS II is the EU’s automated system for circulating policing alerts to law enforcement officers across the EU and in non-EU countries that also take part in it. Alerts can be created in a number of categories, including people who are wanted under a European arrest warrant, suspected criminals, security risks on whom information is sought, and objects that need to be seized such as stolen vehicles and passports. We have taken part in SIS II since April 2015, although we operate only its police and judicial co-operation aspects and not those that support the passport-free Schengen area. We make SIS II alerts available to police officers in real time, and high-priority alerts are also made available at the border. This allows wanted people to be stopped and arrested on arrival, preventing them from posing a risk to the public. SIS II is therefore one of the most important EU policing tools that we have at our disposal.

Last December, the European Commission proposed three draft regulations to replace the legislation that currently governs SIS II. These consisted of one draft regulation to cover the police and judicial co-operation aspects of the system, one to govern its Schengen border control aspects, and a third that allows alerts to be circulated on non-EU nationals who have been subject to removal action in a member state. We are excluded from the regulation on border control as it builds on the aspects of the passport-free Schengen area that we do not take part in. The regulation on non-EU nationals subject to removal action would have applied to us only if we opted into it. The police and judicial co-operation measure would apply to us unless we opted out of it. The deadline for both opting in and opting out was 2 July. This means, as will be obvious to the House, that the Government have already had to take the decisions that we are debating, although I still hope that the House will endorse them.

Let me first explain the Government’s decision not to opt into the proposal on circulating information on non-EU nationals subject to removal action—the so-called returns regulation. This draft regulation would allow member states to circulate alerts on non-EU nationals to whom they have issued a decision requiring them to leave their territory. There could be some benefits to knowing this, as it might give us information about the immigration history of someone who tries to enter the UK or who comes to the attention of law enforcement while here.

However, in the Government’s view, the proposal is too closely linked to another piece of legislation that we do not take part in—the 2008 returns directive. This sets out common rules subject to Court of Justice of the European Union jurisdiction that govern the way in which member states return non-EU nationals who have no right to be in their countries. We do not take part in it because we think that these issues should remain under national control. The Commission has been very clear throughout the negotiations that we could not opt into the returns regulation without also joining the 2008 directive.

[Peter Grant (Glenrothes) (SNP)]

Have the Government had legal advice to confirm the Commission’s view, or are they simply accepting the Commission’s view? Have they conducted any assessment to demonstrate the balance between the benefits to our safety and security from opting in compared with the benefits from complying with the Government’s refusal to have anything to do with the European Court of Justice?

[Mr Hurd]

My understanding is that the Commission’s decision was based on legal advice that we accept.

I hope that the House will agree with our decision not to opt into the returns regulation. The draft police co-operation regulation would replace the 2007 legislation that governs this aspect of SIS II and would bring in a number of useful changes. For example, it would allow pre-emptive alerts to be created for children who are in danger of going missing through parental abduction rather than allowing for alerts only after the child has disappeared, as now. It would also allow member states’ law enforcement to ask specific questions of people on whom information is sought via an alert, and it would update SIS II’s technical standards.

However, there were some aspects of the proposals that we were less happy with. For example, the original text proposed to make it compulsory to create alerts in cases involving terrorism, with implications for the autonomy of our police and security services. We wanted to be clear in the regulation that none of the new actions that it provides for would require police to act contrary to national law, but we felt that we would be better able to address these issues if we did not opt out and thus continued to participate fully in the negotiations with a vote.

[Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con)]

I welcome the Minister’s pragmatic approach. The Justice Committee looked at the matter when we published our report in the last Parliament on the implications of Brexit for the legal system. It was very clear from the evidence given to us that a continuing involvement for SIS II in criminal justice and judicial matters is very much to our advantage, even though there may be some aspects that we will need to discuss, so I support him in his approach. Will he bear in mind the important issue of making sure that we have the proper data arrangements to enable us lawfully to exchange such information, as we wish to?

[Mr Hurd]

I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention and for his support of the Government’s position, based as it is on evidence received by the Justice Committee, which he chairs. I take on board fully his point about data.

I was saying that we had concerns about the proposal in the original text to make it compulsory to create alerts in cases involving terrorism. We felt in general that we would be better able to address the issues if we did not opt out, and thus continued to participate fully in the negotiations with a vote. Our feeling is that opting out at this stage would have sent the message that we sought to pull back from co-operating with our law enforcement and security partners after Brexit, and that is not the message that we want to give. On the contrary, we have always been clear that it is in the interests of both the UK and the EU that we continue to co-operate across borders through a range of tools, measures and agencies even after we have left the EU. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister made the Government’s position clear in her speech in Florence this September:

“It is our ambition to work as closely as possible together with the EU, protecting our people, promoting our values and ensuring the future security of our continent. The United Kingdom is unconditionally committed to maintaining Europe’s security.”

The exact details of our future relationship with the EU on internal security will need to be agreed in the negotiations.

[Robert Neill]

Again, I welcome the Government’s pragmatic approach. The evidence to our Committee stressed not only that we should be looking at SIS II, but that it comes as part of a suite of measures that include access to Eurojust, to the other databases in the Schengen Information System, right across the piece, and to other information exchange arrangements and databases. Can the Minister confirm that it is our intention to seek a co-operative relationship across the raft of criminal justice co-operation measures?

[Mr Hurd]

I thank my hon. Friend for that constructive intervention and for his support for the principles that the Prime Minister laid out strongly. He will understand that the exact details of the future internal security relationship with the EU will need to be agreed in the negotiations. The Government’s paper on the future partnership that we seek with the EU on security, law enforcement and criminal justice makes it clear that we value our current capability to share law enforcement and security alerts with EU countries. That capability is provided by SIS II, but how we might retain similar capability after Brexit is a matter for negotiation.

The exit negotiations are an opportunity to build on what we have already achieved through decades of collaboration and working together. The decision to opt out would suggest that we wished to move in the opposite direction and disengage from security co-operation with Europe. That is not, and cannot be, our position, so it would have been wrong to opt out.

Before I wind up, I want to touch on how the negotiations on these legislative proposals have progressed. The Council of Ministers has recently agreed a general approach on all three draft regulations. That is an agreed Council position to form a basis for negotiations on the final text with the European Parliament. The police co-operation text was satisfactory in most respects. In particular, it gives member states sufficient discretion over whether to create alerts in counter-terrorist cases. But the Government voted against it because it did not address the restrictions on when alerts can be used for purposes other than those for which they were created.

In some limited circumstances, such an alert would be advisable; for example, where the alert shows that a person is particularly dangerous and needs to be kept out of the country. Unfortunately, the text on the general approach continues to make doing this too difficult, so we did not think it was ready for negotiation with the European Parliament. However, there was a qualified majority in favour of the text, and these negotiations are now under way. We expect the incoming Bulgarian presidency of the Council to try to conclude them in the first half of 2018. We will of course keep the European Scrutiny Committee updated.

The Government’s decisions show that we are committed both to protecting our borders and to effective co-operation with our European partners on policing and security issues, and I hope that the House will endorse them tonight.

Policing

Nick Hurd Excerpts

Tuesday 19th December 2017 Written Statements

[The Minister for Policing and the Fire Service (Mr Nick Hurd)]

I have today placed in the Library my proposals for the aggregate amount of grant to local policing bodies in England and Wales for 2018-19, for the approval of the House. Copies are also available in the Vote Office. The Welsh Government are also setting out today its proposals for the allocation of funding in 2018-19 for local policing bodies in Wales.

The Government are committed to protecting the public and providing the resources necessary for the police to do their critical work. That is why I have visited or spoken with every police force in England and Wales to better understand the demands they face and how these can best be managed. I have met with many rank and file officers, as well as Chief Constables and Police and Crime Commissioners (PCCs). I pay tribute to the hard work of police officers up and down the country who put the safety of others before their own and help make our communities more secure.

We in Government and the police leadership must support frontline police officers and staff to ensure they have the resources, modern equipment and skills they need to deliver their responsibility to the public. To achieve this, the police funding settlement has four objectives:

Greater public investment in both local and CT, to help the police respond to shifts in both crime and the terrorist threat.

Empowering locally accountable PCCs to have greater flexibility to set their own local funding.

Challenging and supporting police leaders to be more efficient, more productive with officers’ time and transparent in their use of public money.

Maintaining substantial Government investment in national programmes that will upgrade police capabilities and help them be more effective in managing extra demand.

The background to this settlement is one of a shift in the pattern of demand on police time and resources. It remains true that crime as traditionally measured by the independent crime survey for England and Wales—widely regarded as the best long-term measure of the crime people experience—is down by more than a third since 2010 and 70% since its peak in 1995.



However, we need to recognise that there have been material changes in the demands on policing since the 2015 spending review. Demand on the police from crimes reported to them has grown and shifted to more complex and resource intensive work such as investigating child sexual exploitation and modern slavery. At the same time the terrorist threat has changed. The 24% growth in recorded crime since 2014-15 comes from more victims having the confidence to come forward and report previously hidden crimes, better recording practices by the police—both of which are to be welcomed—but also includes some concerning increases in violent crime.

The Government have listened to the police and recognised the demands they face. Between 2015-16 and 2017-18, total police funding has increased by over half a billion pounds including increased investment in transformation and technology. In this settlement, we propose to increase total investment in the police system by up to £450 million year on year in 2018-19.

In 2018-19, we will provide each PCC with the same amount of core Government grant funding as in 2017-18. Protecting police grant means PCCs retain the full benefit from any additional local council tax income. Alongside this, we are providing further flexibility to PCCs in England to increase their band D precept by up to £12 in 2018-19 without the need to call a local referendum. This is equivalent to up to £1 per month for a typical band D household.

These changes to referendum principles give PCCs the flexibility to make the right choices for their local area, and will enable an increase in funding to PCCs of up to around £270 million next year. It means that each PCC who uses this flexibility will be able to increase their direct resource funding by at least an estimated 1.6% (which maintains funding in real terms). The overall force level impact is set out at the accompanying table 1, and Home Office grant levels are set out at table 3.

The Chancellor and the Home Secretary have agreed additional Government funding for counter-terrorism policing with a £50 million (7%) increase in like-for-like funding when compared to 2017-18. This will enable the counter-terrorism budget to increase to at least £757 million, including £29 million for an uplift in armed policing from the police transformation fund. This is a significant additional investment in the vital work of counter-terrorism police officers across the country. PCCs will be notified of force level allocations separately. These will not be made public for security reasons.

We will also increase investment in national policing priorities such as police technology and special grant by around £130 million compared to 2017-18.

The funding the Government provide for national police priorities, known as reallocations, supports crucial police reform. For example, since the launch of the transformation fund last year over £200 million of funding has been awarded for modernising policing and building capability, in addition to over £200 million awarded between 2013 and 2016 for the innovation fund. For example, we are investing over £40 million in regional organised crime unit capacity to uplift serious organised crime capability including undercover online capability to tackle child sexual abuse, and £8.5 million for tackling modern slavery, to drive nationally co-ordinated action, training and assessment.

We will continue to work in partnership with the police to help build the capabilities and skills they need to meet new challenges. To support these objectives, we are providing reallocations for the following national priorities in 2018-19 (as set out at table 2):

We will maintain the size of the police transformation fund at £175 million, which we expect to support an improvement in the leadership and culture of policing, the diversity of its workforce, protection of vulnerable people, cross-force specialist capabilities, exploitation of new technology and how we respond to changing threats.

We are also increasing funding for police technology to £495 million to support the new emergency services network (ESN), Home Office biometrics, the national law enforcement data service and the new national automatic number plate recognition service. These technology programmes will provide the national infrastructure that the police need for the modern communications and data requirements, and will deliver substantial financial savings and productivity gains in future.

We are providing £93 million for the discretionary police special grant contingency fund, which supports forces facing significant and exceptional events which might otherwise place them at significant financial risk (for example, helping forces respond to terrorist attacks). We are increasing funding in 2018-19 to reflect both an assessment of potential need after heavy demand for special grant this year, and the specific costs likely to be incurred for the policing operation at the Commonwealth summit.

Existing arm’s length bodies (Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire and Rescue Services, the College of Policing, the Independent Police Complaints Commission as it becomes the Independent Office for Police Conduct, and the Gangmasters and Labour Abuse Authority) will receive broadly the same level of funding as in 2017-18. Additional arm’s length body funding reflects the need to set up a new office for communications data authorisations following clarification by the courts of the legal requirements for independent scrutiny of requests for communications intercepts.

We will also continue to pay our private finance initiative obligations, support police bail reforms, and top up national crime agency funding and regional organised crime unit grants to ensure these are maintained at flat cash, in line with police grant.

As part of the settlement for police and crime commissioners and in addition to core Government funding, we will fund the following:

PCCs in England will continue to receive grants relating to the 2011-12, 2013-14, 2014-15 and 2015-16 council tax freeze schemes. We will also provide local council tax support grant funding to PCCs in England. These will total £507 million in 2018-19. The Common Council of the City of London (on behalf of the City of London Police) and the Greater London Authority (on behalf of the Mayor’s Office for Policing and Crime) will also receive equivalent funding from the Department of Communities and Local Government (DCLG).

The Metropolitan Police Service, through the Greater London Authority, will continue to receive national and international capital city (NICC) grant funding worth £173.6 million, and the City of London Police will also continue to receive NICC grant funding worth £4.5 million. This is in recognition of the unique and additional demands of policing the capital city. An additional grant of £0.9 million will be made to the Common Council of the City of London (on behalf of the City of London Police) to protect their direct resource funding in real terms as they do not raise a police precept.

PCCs will also receive capital grant of £45.9 million, which is the same amount as in 2017-18. Tables 4 and 5 set out the capital settlement.

The increase in 2018-19 funding to PCCs must be matched by a serious commitment from PCCs and chief constables to reform by improving productivity and efficiency to deliver a better, more transparent service to the public. Following my discussions with forces and Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire and Rescue Services (HMICFRS) efficiency findings, I have three clear priorities:

Seek and deliver further cost efficiencies. I welcome the progress forces have made against the £350 million procurement savings target set at spending review 2015. However, there is a lot more to do. We have helped to identify £100 million of potential savings in areas such as fleet, professional services and construction. Forces will need to make greater use of national procurement through lead forces to make these savings. We are providing support through the police transformation fund and we will also help establish a force-led national centre of excellence to drive down back-office costs, and make best use of estates.

A modern digitally enabled workforce that allows frontline officers to spend less time dealing with bureaucracy and more time preventing and fighting crime and protecting the public. If all forces could deliver the same one hour per officer per day of productivity benefits from mobile working as the best in a recent sample with eight forces, this has the potential to free up the equivalent of 11,000 extra officers nationally to provide the proactive policing that committed police officers want to deliver. We will work with policing to set up a specialist team to make sure all police forces have access to, and make use of, the best mobile working apps to enable forces to free up extra hours to spend at the frontline.

Greater transparency in how public money is used locally. It is necessary for police to hold financial reserves, including primarily for contingencies, emergencies and major change costs. As at March 2017 police forces held usable resource reserves of over £1.6 billion. This compares to £1.4 billion in 2011. Current reserves held represent 15% of annual police funding to PCCs. There are wide variations between forces with Gwent for example holding 42% and Northumbria holding 6%. This is public money and the public are entitled to more information around police plans for reserves and how those plans will support more effective policing. So we will be improving transparency around reserves in the new year through enhanced guidance and through national publication of comparable reserves data. HMICFRS are also consulting on plans for force management statements, which could make more information on police forces available to the public.

We will be entering into discussions with police leadership to agree milestones against these priorities that need to be achieved over 2018.

I have listened to the views of PCCs and Chief Constables, who have requested greater certainty about future funding to help more efficient financial planning. If the police deliver clear and substantial progress against the agreed milestones on productivity and efficiency in 2018, then the Government intend to maintain the protection of a broadly flat police grant in 2019-20 and repeat the same flexibility of the precept, i.e. allowing PCCs to increase their band D precept up to a further £12 in 2019-20.

I am grateful for the work of the core grant distribution review, earlier this year, which considered potential changes to the police funding formula. In the context of changing demand and following my engagement with police leaders, providing funding certainty for 2019-20 is my immediate priority. It is intended that the funding formula will be revisited at the next spending review.

Not only are we supporting the police by making sure they have enough resources but in other ways too, such as ensuring police have the full protection of the law when carrying out their duties. That is why we are supporting the Assaults on Emergency Workers Bill which will increase penalties available to those who attack emergency service workers. We are also helping frontline officers to tackle crime by making sure that officers feel able to pursue suspected criminals where it is appropriate to do so by reviewing the legislation, guidance and practice around police pursuits.

The Communities Secretary is announcing the council tax referendum principles for all local authorities in England in 2018-19, including those applicable to PCCs. After considering any representations, he will set out the final principles in a report to the House and seek approval for these in parallel with the Final Local Government Finance Report. Council tax in Wales is the responsibility of Welsh Ministers.

I have set out in a separate document the tables illustrating how we propose to allocate the police funding settlement between the different funding streams and between PCCs for 2018-19. These documents are intended to be read together.

Police grant tables can be viewed online at: http://www. parliament.uk/business/publications/written-questions-answers-statements/written-statemwent/Commons/2017-12-19/HCWS372/ .

[HCWS372]

Passports: Parental Identification

Nick Hurd Excerpts

Friday 1st December 2017 Commons Chamber

[The Minister for Policing and the Fire Service (Mr Nick Hurd)]

I genuinely congratulate the hon. Member for Hampstead and Kilburn (Tulip Siddiq) on securing this debate and, as she made clear, on giving voice to the many people who feel aggrieved about the issue—that is not in doubt. She is entirely right that the bureaucratic systems that we set up have to keep up with the times. Her experience at the airport sounds horrendous, and I would feel exactly the same as her if I was in that situation. Her experience has triggered a reaction from the many people who have been made to feel the same way. She said that she was made to feel as though she had done something wrong, and that is wrong.

I encourage the hon. Lady to listen carefully to the end of my remarks, because I will place on the record some things that I have to place on the record, some of which will sound a little inflexible and unhelpful. However, I spoke with the Immigration Minister this morning, and he wants to try to find a way forward. If that is not evident from the prose that I am about to disgorge, I ask her to listen carefully to the end of my speech. There is a lot of common ground here, and I am sure that the hon. Lady and I are as one on wanting to ensure that people legitimately entering the UK have an experience that is as swift and easy as possible when crossing the border. Everyone shares that objective. As a parent of six, I understand some of the additional challenges of travelling with small children, so I certainly do not underestimate the stress that that can cause, and our border system should not be doing anything to exacerbate that stress.

I am sure that the hon. Member for Hampstead and Kilburn will agree that ensuring a smooth and swift passage through the border cannot be the only objective. It is equally important to carry out checks to ensure that those who cross the border are doing so lawfully and legitimately, which of course involves carrying out checks and a Border Force officer conducting an interview where any factors warrant further interest.

An important element of that—again, I am sure there is no difference between the hon. Lady and me on this—is ensuring that the system protects the welfare of children whomever they are travelling with. Of course, the vast majority of children who cross the border are travelling with one or both parents, often returning from a holiday, and there are absolutely no grounds for concern.

But, sadly, we cannot ignore the fact that there are cases that give rise to safeguarding concerns where children are taken across borders, be it because they are travelling without the consent of others, because of trafficking, forced marriage or abduction, or because they are travelling in contravention of a court order. Additionally, there will be many instances where children travel when not with a parent or guardian—again, mainly with consent, but there are occasions when that is not the case. I hope the hon. Lady will agree that we have to take reasonable steps to ensure that we avoid putting children at risk.

Quite rightly, Border Force officers are required at all times to consider and protect the welfare of children who are travelling. Under section 55 of the Borders, Citizenship and Immigration Act 2009, all those concerned with the operation of the borders and immigration system have a statutory duty to safeguard and promote the welfare of children, which means they may stop anyone where they have reason to undertake further checks. The key point is that this duty would not change, nor should it, if parents’ names were to be included in children’s passports.

I understand why the hon. Lady makes these suggestions, and I can see why it appears attractive to provide information to border officials from a verified source. However, information in a passport can only reflect the situation at the point when the passport was issued. Children’s passports last for five years, and a lot can happen in that time. Relationships can break down, parents may disagree on the best arrangement for the child, and the police, social services or the courts may become involved. Information in a passport could rapidly become out of date and need to be replaced.

A passport, other than one that is brand new, even if it contains parents’ names, would not provide conclusive evidence to a Border Force officer that the person accompanying a child has the right to do so or is acting in the best interests of the child’s welfare. The Border Force officer would still need to make inquiries and be satisfied that no further intervention is required, exactly as now.

The hon. Lady has proposed that HM Passport Office adds an observation to the child’s passport detailing parents or guardians with a surname different from the child’s. This information could be verified only at the time the passport was issued and, due to the ability to change names in the UK and overseas, and the fact that circumstances can change, this could rapidly become out of date. The point about observations is that they, like the core information in a passport, are designed to be about the individual and last for the lifetime of the passport.

The hon. Lady may be aware that the Foreign and Commonwealth Office adds the name of the person with whom a child is travelling to an emergency travel document when it replaces a lost passport. However, it should be remembered that, in such instances, the family will be subject to interview. All those with parental responsibility must provide consent, and the document is for a single verified journey. The person or persons travelling with the child will have been subject to at least the level of checks undertaken by Border Force.

I appreciate that questioning by a Border Force officer may appear intrusive or unnecessary, although, as I have explained, it is done from the best of motives. To allow those travelling with children to prepare, and to make travel as smooth as possible, we have published a leaflet, available on gov.uk, titled “Children travelling to the UK” setting out in what circumstances we might ask questions of a person travelling with a child and why we might do so—principally the child protection reasons I have set out.

The leaflet sets out suggested documents the accompanying adult might want to bring to help smooth the process. It also refers to the questions we might ask and contains a firm commitment:

“We will always do this as quickly as possible and in a way which is sensitive to the interests of the child and the adult involved… We do not wish to delay your journey any longer than necessary.”

I appreciate the sincerity of the hon. Lady’s position and the way in which she has advanced her cause. When she says she will not give up, I absolutely believe her. I have sought to explain that there are formidable difficulties with what she proposes, and we need to be certain that nothing we do, however well intentioned, has the effect of increasing the risk to children. As a mother herself, I am sure she will appreciate that.

Having said that, I have spoken to my right hon. Friend the Immigration Minister and I know he understands that the present situation is causing difficulties, particularly in cases where children have a different surname from that of a parent. I am therefore happy to give the hon. Lady the commitment, on his behalf, that he will actively consider how we can take this forward. Child protection is an absolute imperative, and we cannot compromise on that, so I am certainly not going to stand at this Dispatch Box today and make promises that cannot be delivered on. However, I do give her the absolute undertaking that he will give this matter his fullest consideration, with the aim of trying to find a workable solution. I again congratulate the hon. Lady on securing this debate and I am sure that this will not be the last word on this matter, either from her or from the Government.

Question put and agreed to.

Forensic Evidence: Alleged Manipulation

Nick Hurd Excerpts

Monday 27th November 2017 Commons Chamber

[Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) (Lab)]

(Urgent Question): To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if she will make a statement on the developments surrounding the alleged manipulation of forensic evidence at the Randox and Trimega laboratories in Manchester.

[The Minister for Policing and the Fire Service (Mr Nick Hurd)]

I thank the right hon. Lady for her question and apologise on behalf of the Home Secretary that it is me responding to her. I should also like to take this opportunity to place on record my congratulations to Prince Harry and his fiancée.

In January, Randox Testing Services informed Greater Manchester police that there may have been a manipulation of test results at its laboratories. Ongoing police investigations have since uncovered the possibility of the same manipulation having occurred at Trimega Laboratories. Criminal investigations by Greater Manchester police into the alleged manipulation of toxicology results are ongoing. The House will therefore understand that I must be cautious in my response, but I want to assure Members on both sides of the House that the matter is being treated with the utmost seriousness, given the need to retain public confidence in our justice system.

The Government’s immediate priority is to work with the police and the independent Forensic Science Regulator to establish the full scale of this issue and the potential impact on the public. I laid a written ministerial statement on this matter before the House on 21 November. I understand completely that public confidence in the justice system is absolutely vital, which was why the written ministerial statement noted that my hon. Friend the Minister of State, Ministry of Justice, who is in the Chamber, will be overseeing the review process for individual cases and will work closely with Ministers from other Departments who are impacted by the outcome of this investigation.

Retesting in criminal cases has been under way since May and is ongoing, and the police, the Crown Prosecution Service and coroners will be contacting affected individuals once the outcomes of the retests are known. The Department for Education has also asked all local authorities in England to review their records to establish whether they commissioned tests from Trimega, and to consider whether any action is necessary to fulfil their safeguarding responsibilities. It is unlikely that decisions about the welfare of children will have been taken solely on the basis of toxicology test results, but the Department for Education has asked local authorities to assure themselves that the rationale for decisions made about children’s safety and wellbeing is not now called into question. The Government fully understand that people may have concerns about family cases, which is why the Ministry of Justice has created an application form to allow people to apply to court to have their cases looked at free of charge, if they are concerned.

Government officials will continue to work with the police to monitor the scale of this pressing issue as information emerges. Furthermore, as Greater Manchester police’s investigation continues, we are considering what lessons can be learned to ensure that public confidence in forensic science is upheld.

[Ms Abbott]

Does the Minister accept that this is the biggest forensic science scandal for decades? It involves not only data that includes evidence used in sex cases, violent crimes, driving cases and unexplained deaths, but the liberty of subjects, so does he understand the concerns of victims and of people who might have been convicted on the basis of unsafe data? Is it true that Ministers did not consult the chief scientific adviser on the decision to privatise the Forensic Science Service but merely informed him of that decision two weeks before announcing it?

Is the Minister able to tell the House how long it will take for all the retesting to be completed? Is he able to say more about the scale of the problems at the two named laboratories? When will he be able to provide the House with full details, subject to legal proceedings? Are any other labs under suspicion? Is he able to specify the likely cost to the public purse arising from retests, appeal procedures, and possible litigation and compensation payments? What is the Government’s response to the likely human cost of incorrect forensic evidence in family court cases? What is the scale of comparable costs in criminal court cases?

Does the Minister agree with Professor Peter Gill, one of Britain’s most distinguished forensic scientists, who said that it was difficult to imagine the scandal having occurred under the Forensic Science Service, when scientists were routinely sent mock cases that were checked as a quality control? He stated:

“When you get rid of that system the quality is quite difficult to maintain”.

Does the Minister accept that many stakeholders, including those in forensic science, believe that the problems and the allegedly faulty data that we are now seeing flow directly from the misconceived decision to privatise the Forensic Science Service?

[Mr Hurd]

I start by agreeing wholeheartedly with the right hon. Lady that this is an extremely serious matter. Members on both sides of the House will completely understand why it could be unsettling for any potential victims—there is no doubt about that at all. At its heart, this matter is about public confidence in our justice system—it is as serious as that.

Where I do disagree with the right hon. Lady—we are coming from a different place on this—is when she tries to squeeze this into a Labour political narrative around “public good, private bad.” I simply tell her what the independent Forensic Science Regulator has expressed:

“No reasonable set of quality standards could guarantee to prevent determined malpractice by skilled but corrupt personnel”.

I would go further. I think that there is general understanding and agreement that there has in fact been increased stringency in the standards and quality requirements for forensic science within the CPS—[Interruption.] There is muttering on the Labour Benches, but this has been driven by the Forensic Science Regulator, who in 2011 published the first codes of practice and conduct for forensic service providers. I am not at all sure that we could have regulated against this situation.

The right hon. Lady asks about testing. I can confirm that 70% of top priority cases are already in the system for retesting—there are around 10,000 cases in relation to Randox. I cannot answer some of her other questions because they fall within the boundaries of the police criminal investigation.

I understand the right hon. Lady’s point about costs and the impact on the criminal justice system, about which we are obviously concerned, but it is too early in the testing process to be making judgments. If we are to have a clearer view of the impact, we will need to see where that process leads but, as she would expect, we and our colleagues in the Ministry of Justice are monitoring it very closely.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con)]

Perhaps the Minister can help us a little more on this very serious matter. Can he give us some idea of the dates over which this alleged wrongdoing took place and how they relate to the changes in the Forensic Science Service? What percentage of the samples involved were or were not used for evidential purposes in criminal cases or others?

[Mr Hurd]

My hon. Friend is entirely right that what is alleged goes back over many years—[Interruption.] Some of the issues at the other organisation may go back as far as 2010. My central point is that any attempt to try to link this to the FSS issue is driven by tribal politics, rather than clear assessments of the underlying reality.

[Carol Monaghan (Glasgow North West) (SNP)]

It is imperative that the public trust forensic science testing and, by extension, criminal and civil justice as a whole. There were warning signs about the firm’s predecessor, Trimega, which had seen children almost taken into care on the basis of erroneous evidence. That major mistake should have been a red flag to the Government, so why were they not alert to the risk presented by the Randox lab, given that its predecessor had such a poor record?

Does the Minister agree that the privatisation of vital elements of the justice system without proper oversight can lead to errors or deliberate tampering, and that the cost both to the individuals affected and to confidence in the justice system outweigh any money saved? Finally, what steps will he take to restore the public’s faith in forensic expert evidence and the justice system as a whole?

[Mr Hurd]

I clarify that, although there are possible employee links, Trimega and Randox are separate organisations. Trimega was doing something different and was subject to a different regulatory regime—for better or worse, the regulatory regime in relation to the family courts has always been lighter. However, I completely agree with the hon. Lady about the seriousness of the allegations and the issue underlying the investigation into Randox, which is why, following the analysis of what has been done, I believe that the Government and the system have acted very quickly to respond to the information we received in January 2017 by setting up proper processes of retesting and prioritising these cases.

[Nigel Huddleston (Mid Worcestershire) (Con)]

To reassure my constituents, will the Minister confirm that, for the most serious family and criminal cases, it is highly unlikely that a decision would have been made solely on the basis of one individual toxicology test?

[Mr Hurd]

I do believe that to be true, and my understanding is that in some of these family cases more than one test will be taken. However, that does not take away from the uncertainty that people involved in these cases may feel, which is why my colleagues in the Ministry of Justice have set up a bespoke process that people can access quickly under which they can request that their case is reviewed.

[David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

In passing, it is worth noting that when my right hon. Friend the Member for Tynemouth (Mr Campbell) and I were Home Office Ministers, we ruled out the privatisation of the Forensic Science Service. But my question to the Minister is this: if wrongdoing by a private sector company is found in due course, what penalties will be levied against it?

[Mr Hurd]

How nice to have been a Minister before the age of austerity. The answer to the right hon. Gentleman’s question is that he is jumping the gun in terms of the police investigation. We should let Greater Manchester police do their work.

[Rebecca Pow (Taunton Deane) (Con)]

Obviously this is extremely serious. Can my hon. Friend confirm that his Department is providing all the necessary support so that the police can prioritise testing live cases?

[Mr Hurd]

I thank my hon. Friend for that question. Again, I am satisfied, having reviewed our process, as I do regularly, that the system and the gold command, which was set up very quickly, have done a good enough job of prioritising cases and getting retesting going as quickly as possible. As I said, the last numbers I saw suggested that 70% of the priority cases were in the system for retesting.

[Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD)]

Is the Minister able to say whether Randox’s contract has been suspended? Is he able to say, in general terms, whether a company that was guilty of manipulation would have to pay all costs associated with retrial, for instance?

[Mr Hurd]

As I understand it, the police have suspended all contracts with Randox. Randox is co-operating with us fully on identifying the priority cases and getting the retesting done as quickly as possible. On the right hon. Gentleman’s question about future costs, I refer back to what I said before: we need better evidence about the impact on cases.

[Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)]

The Minister accuses Labour of politicising the forensic service, yet it was his Government who chose to privatise it out of the mistaken and ideologically bankrupt view that everything is better when it is done in the private sector for the profit motive. Will he now distance himself from that ideology and recognise that public confidence in the justice system requires public servants?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Hurd]

I refer the hon. Lady to what I said before and to the view of the independent regulator, who arguably knows more about this than anyone in the House. She has expressed the view that

“no reasonable set of quality standards could guarantee to prevent determined malpractice by skilled but corrupt personnel”,

which it looks increasingly clear is what has happened. That is what the independent regulator has said, and I am really sorry if it does not correspond with the views of the Labour party.

[Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)]

Professor Peter Gill is the most distinguished forensic scientist. He did magnificent work on DNA mass profiling. His authority is unquestioned, and he warned that what happened with privatisation would lead to the present situation because of a lack of trust in results. I have spent my working life in laboratories, so I know how highly prized the integrity of scientific results is. This is a very rare situation, with an accusation having been made, and I am afraid it is the Government who have taken a political stance on this. The Opposition and the scientific community are absolutely right to be deeply concerned.

[Mr Hurd]

As I said clearly at the outset, I do think that the situation is extremely serious, but I agree with the hon. Gentleman’s diagnosis that it may be a rare one. Again, I repeat the view that the regulator has reached about the efficacy of any standards of regulation to prevent

“determined malpractice by skilled but corrupt personnel”.

Again, I place on record the progress that has been made since 2011, when the regulator published the first codes of practice and conduct for forensic science providers. I do think that there is increased stringency in the standards and quality requirements for forensic science, and that matters enormously because of the way this underpins confidence in forensic science within the criminal justice system.

[Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab)]

The Minister does himself no credit when he says that this is a tribal issue. I direct him to three reports—not one or two—by the cross-party Science and Technology Committee that criticised his Government’s Home Office for not consulting Professor Silverman, who was the scientific adviser to the Home Office. I also suggest that he reads the evidence—three times—from Dr Tully, the Forensic Science Regulator, who said that murderers and rapists will go free because of the changes that the Government made. Not one party but all parties came to that conclusion. Given what appears to have happened in my constituency, will the Minister, after the courts have dealt with the matter, look into conducting a full review of forensic science services?

[Mr Hurd]

As I have made clear, this is an enormously important issue. We need to get hard evidence of what happened and its impact on the system, and all lessons will have to be learned from that process. I know that the Opposition do not like it, but the point I am trying to make is that the urgent question was about what happened at Randox, not about the privatisation of the Forensic Science Service. As the independent regulator said, there is no link.

[Liz McInnes (Heywood and Middleton) (Lab)]

I used to work for the NHS as a clinical scientist, and every test that we did in our laboratory, including toxicology testing, was subject to rigorous internal and external quality control standards. It is my understanding that the Forensic Science Regulator has no statutory authority over private forensics laboratories. When will the Minister give the regulator statutory authority?

[Mr Hurd]

In the 2016 forensic science strategy, we committed to placing the Forensic Science Regulator on a statutory footing by the end of this Parliament. We are seeking the appropriate parliamentary opportunity to do that.

[Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab)]

The Minister does not seem to be aware that senior police officers think that the Forensic Science Service has been a mess ever since privatisation, with long delays affecting victims and the wider justice system. One reality of the current situation is that there will have to be significant retesting, which will cause further delays. The Government have to look into this matter and reviewing the decision to privatise needs to be central to that process.

[Mr Hurd]

I agree that retesting is the priority and that that needs to be done as quickly as possible—that is a Government priority—but I do not think that revisiting the decision on the Forensic Science Service is a priority. As I have said, that decision was taken in 2011. We have seen increased stringency in the standards and quality requirements. We should not be revisiting those old arguments.

[Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

Following on from the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Heywood and Middleton (Liz McInnes), the Forensic Science Regulator said in January that she needed statutory powers to enforce regulation as soon as possible—not in 2022, but as soon as possible. Will the Minister think again?

[Mr Hurd]

I do not need to think again. I have said we are going to do that and that we are trying to find the right parliamentary opportunity to do so.

[Chris Elmore (Ogmore) (Lab)]

Children’s social services and judges make decisions on adoption and fostering on the basis of forensic science services. What assurance can the Minister give, especially in relation to adoptions since 2010, that children have not been removed from families on the basis of false forensic information? What conversations has he had with Ministers in the Welsh Government about the failings of the Forensic Science Service with respect to Welsh adoptions?

[Mr Hurd]

My hon. Friend the Minister for Children and Families, who is sitting next to me, has written to all local authorities to ask them to review the cases in which the organisations in question may have been involved. As I understand it, he should be receiving all the evidence by the end of this week and we will take it from there.

Toxicology

Nick Hurd Excerpts

Tuesday 21st November 2017 Written Statements

[The Minister for Policing and the Fire Service (Mr Nick Hurd)]

In January 2017 Randox Testing Services (RTS) informed Greater Manchester Police (GMP) that there may have been manipulation of test results at their laboratories. Ongoing police investigations have since uncovered that the same manipulation may also have occurred at Trimega Laboratories Ltd (Trimega). The police are making an announcement about their criminal investigation today. When GMP has concluded its investigation, the Government will consider what lessons can be learned to ensure public confidence in forensic science used in court proceedings. I am providing an update on the police investigation and the cross-government work to manage the impact of this investigation. The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice, my hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton (Dominic Raab) will be overseeing the process for reviewing any impact on individual cases in the courts and will work closely with other Government Ministers from Departments impacted by the outcome of this investigation.

The purpose of this statement is to inform people potentially affected by these issues about next steps, including what action they can take.

The toxicology tests involved are used to detect the presence of drugs and in some cases alcohol in an individual’s hair, blood or urine. The alleged manipulation raises doubts about the reliability of some test results, which may have been subsequently relied on in court proceedings (criminal, coroners and family). At this time the Ministry of Justice does not believe that any civil cases are affected by this issue, but continues to keep this under review as more information emerges from the investigation. The results may also have been used by local authorities when making child protection decisions outside the court process, or by private employers for the purpose of drug and alcohol testing of their employees.

The Government recognise the seriousness of this issue and the potential impact on public confidence in the use of forensic science within the justice system. The senior judiciary are aware and Government officials are working with the police to monitor the scale of the issue, as information emerges.

Trimega

Results from all tests carried out by Trimega between 2010 and 2014 are currently being treated as potentially unreliable although it is not clear how many tests from Trimega during that period may have been manipulated. The number of Trimega’s customers affected (such as local authorities, individuals, legal representatives and employers) is unknown. It may never be possible to identify them all, due to poor record-keeping practices. Samples from Trimega cannot be retested, because of the extremely limited chain of custody records and the natural degradation over time of any remaining original samples.

The Department for Education (DFE) has asked all local authorities in England to review their records to establish whether they commissioned tests from Trimega and to consider whether any action is necessary to fulfil their safeguarding responsibilities. It is unlikely that decisions about the welfare of children will have been taken solely on the basis of toxicology test results. However, DFE has asked local authorities to assure themselves that the rationale for decisions made about children’s safety and wellbeing is not now called into question.

Social care is devolved to Wales and the Welsh Government. Welsh local authorities have duties and responsibility for the care, protection and wellbeing of Welsh children and young adults. Welsh Ministers have subsequently been informed and will also be asking Welsh local authorities to review their case files to identify potential cases where test results by Trimega were relied on.

The Government fully understand that people who had a case heard in the family court may have concerns. Form C650—“Application notice to vary or set aside an order in relation to children”—has been created and is available online at: https://hmctsformfinder.justice.gov. uk/HMCTS/FormFinder.do. This form enables individuals to apply to the court to vary or discharge the final court order. No fee is payable where form C650 is used. Individuals are encouraged to seek legal advice from a solicitor or an organisation like Citizens Advice before making any application to the court. The existing legislative provisions for assessing suitability for legal aid will apply. Further information about the court process is available at: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/forensic-toxicology-tests.

Where a private employer has commissioned a test, individuals are encouraged to seek legal advice on the options available to them. They may also wish to consult their professional body or union, which may be able to provide assistance.

Randox Testing Services

Most drug tests from RTS between 2013 and 2017 are being treated as potentially unreliable. RTS was mainly commissioned by individual police forces when investigating criminal offences. This includes cases subsequently referred to the coroner following an investigation into a suspicious death. They have also been commissioned to undertake hair-strand tests for drugs and alcohol in the civil and family jurisdictions. RTS is co-operating fully with the police to manage the impact of this issue, and has contacted all its customers to make them aware. The NPCC is co-ordinating a national plan in response to the impact on criminal and coroners’ cases. In the majority of these cases, the original samples remain available for independent retesting, which is being managed through a prioritisation process. The police, CPS and coroners will contact affected individuals once the outcome of the retests is known.

[HCWS265]

Oral Answers to Questions

Nick Hurd Excerpts

Monday 20th November 2017 Commons Chamber

[The Minister for Policing and the Fire Service (Mr Nick Hurd)]

It is the responsibility of the National Joint Council to consider what pay award is appropriate for firefighters in England; central Government have no role in this process. The 2017-18 firefighter pay negotiations are still under way.

[Mr Dhesi]

I thank the Minister for that answer, but National Audit Office figures show that 30% of central Government funding has been cut from the fire and rescue service since 2011, with a further 20% cut by 2020. Basic pay for firefighters is nearly £3,000 less in real terms than it was in 2010. Is it not time that the Government stopped hiding behind cash-strapped authorities and stumped up the cash that these vital public servants deserve?

[Mr Hurd]

With respect, there is a reason why we have fewer firefighters in this country: at the last count, we had had 48% fewer fires over the past 10 years. The hon. Gentleman talks about a cash-strapped service, but he will be aware that single fire authorities such as the one in his area have had multi-year settlements and are part of a system that is sitting on £616 million of reserves—and that figure has grown by 153% since 2010.

[James Duddridge (Rochford and Southend East) (Con)]

When he looks at the budgets for fire workers and police, I urge the Minister to consider the example of Essex, where the police and crime commissioner is now responsible for both those entities and is able to drive forward efficiencies and savings, which will be better spent if that policy is rolled out elsewhere.

[Mr Hurd]

I thank my hon. Friend for again giving me the chance to congratulate the Essex leadership, and particularly Roger Hirst, on seizing the opportunity that this Government provided to bring together the governance of fire and police. We did that not only in the name of better accountability and transparency, but to provide the opportunity to continue to pursue savings and efficiencies on behalf of the taxpayer.

[Emma Hardy (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) (Lab)]

18. I met the Humberside fire chief just a couple of weeks ago. He knows that all his firefighters deserve a pay rise, but he was really worried that he would not have the money in his budget to pay for that. The Minister talks about the reserves that fire authorities have, but the fire chief also mentioned the fact that the Humberside fire service, like the services further down the coast, no longer deals with fires at sea because it does not have the money to pay for that. I would like a commitment from the Minister that the Government will fund the money for the fire service and look into the problem of fires at sea not being covered.

[Mr Hurd]

I completely share the hon. Lady’s desire to see firefighters get a fair pay settlement. I defer to no one in my admiration for them, not least because I have met a number of the firefighters who did such heroic work at Grenfell Tower. The fact is that the Government will always listen to the evidence. With respect to making a case for fresh Government funding, the challenge for the fire service is to provide the evidence that it cannot manage the demand in the system now and explain its plan for reserves because, as I have stated, reserves in the fire system have grown every year since 2010. That is not the action of a system that is strapped for cash.

[Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab)]

May I correct the Minister, because Home Office figures show that fire deaths are actually up 17% in the past 12 months? He will also be aware that funding for local authorities has been slashed. Firefighters risk their lives every day to keep us safe and they have seen a real-terms cut in their pay every year for the past seven years. They cannot spend warm words from the Minister. The National Fire Chiefs Council, the employers representatives on the National Joint Council and the Fire Brigades Union all agree that to increase firefighters’ wages additional central Government funds must be provided, so when will the Minister stop passing the buck and start taking responsibility for this own actions?

[Mr Hurd]

In response to that artificial rant, let me state the facts again: over the past 10 years, the total number of fires attended by fire and rescue services has more than halved. I am not offering warm words: the taxpayer is investing £2.3 billion of public money in the fire service. If there is evidence that that is not enough, we will always listen to it, but the first question we will ask is, “What are you doing with your reserves?”

[Sir Edward Davey (Kingston and Surbiton) (LD)]

7. Whether her Department has commissioned research into alternatives to the use of immigration detention centres.

--- Later in debate ---

[Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con)]

14. Whether she plans to introduce a new police funding formula in the next 12 months.

[The Minister for Policing and the Fire Service (Mr Nick Hurd)]

We have not yet made a decision about what was called the fair funding review, but I assure my hon. Friend that a new formula will not be introduced without a full public consultation. In the meantime, we are completing our review of demand and resilience in the police system ahead of the 2018-19 funding settlement.

[Nigel Mills]

The Minister will know that Derbyshire has been particularly badly affected by the current formula, so we would greatly appreciate some progress on the new formula. In the meantime, can he assure my local police force that there will be at least an inflationary rise in its funding for next year?

[Mr Hurd]

I assure my hon. Friend that I have spoken directly to the police and crime commissioner and the chief constable in Derbyshire to get an update on the performance of the service and the demand on it. That will feed into the review that I have signalled, which will, in turn, feed into the decisions about the 2018-19 funding settlement, for which he will not have to wait too long.

[Louise Haigh (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab)]

The Minister says that he wants evidence for police funding. How about the document that every chief constable and PCC in the country signed up to this month, which warned that without extra investment on Wednesday, up to 6,000 more police officers could be lost by 2020 and that usable resources are, in fact, a fraction of the figure that he keeps citing? If he thinks that the UK’s most senior police leaders are wrong, will he commit today to making no further cuts to police officer numbers during this Parliament?

[Mr Hurd]

I can confirm that decisions about police funding have not been finalised, but that that will be done shortly. An announcement will be made to the House as part of the draft grant settlement for 2018-19 in the usual way. On the report that the hon. Lady cites, I hope she understands that we have worked with that report closely, because the Home Office and the police system wanted to do a proper job of updating our understanding of the pressures that the police are under, which are real.

[Ms Karen Lee (Lincoln) (Lab)]

T1. If she will make a statement on her departmental responsibilities.

[Ms Lee]

From December, the Policing and Crime Act 2017 will stop police cells being used as places of safety for people detained under section 136 of the Mental Health Act 1983. In Lincolnshire, with around 750,000 residents, there will be only four hospital-based places of safety, and two of those will be in Lincoln’s Peter Hodgkinson Centre. Last year, 89 people were detained in police cells because there were no other options. Will the Minister give an assurance that moneys will be made available to provide adequate resources for this change?

[The Minister for Policing and the Fire Service (Mr Nick Hurd)]

The hon. Lady raises an important issue. I assure her that the Government have made £30 million of funding available to local areas to improve places of safety provision. Around half of that has been allocated and a second round of funding opened on 18 October, to which applications are invited. The legislation also provides that any suitable place may be used as a place of safety to help to supplement local provision.

--- Later in debate ---

[Julie Elliott (Sunderland Central) (Lab)]

T2. Will the Minister ensure that any scheduled repayments from Tyne and Wear Fire and Rescue Service do not have a negative impact on the residents of Sunderland and the wider Tyne and Wear area because of the constraint of the cap on the precept?

[Mr Hurd]

I am aware of this issue, and I am more than happy to have a meeting with the hon. Lady to give her the assurances she seeks.

[Tom Pursglove (Corby) (Con)]

T7. As we leave the European Union, will my right hon. Friend confirm that the UK will continue to be at the very forefront of international intelligence and security co-operation, working with our international partners?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Speaker]

Order. Some of these inquiries are very good, but there is an emerging tendency for colleagues to have a script prepared that—forgive me—is rather too long for topical questions. It may be exceptionally good and delivered with brilliance in every case, but it is too long and takes too much time. For future reference, please may I ask colleagues to curb this tendency, because you are crowding out other colleagues who may also wish to take part?

[Mr Hurd]

As a London MP, I assure the hon. Lady that I am very interested in the Met police having the resources they need. To my eyes, they do in the sense that the level of resources and number of police officers per head are—for good reason—far and away above those anywhere else in the country. I do not recognise her figure of £400 million, because no decisions have been made yet about the funding settlement for 2018-19. As I have already said, that announcement will be made shortly.

[Mr William Wragg (Hazel Grove) (Con)]

The return to the United Kingdom of those who have fought for Daesh is a matter of grave concern. Is my right hon. Friend confident that the Home Office has the necessary powers to deal with them and to neutralise any danger they may pose?

--- Later in debate ---

[Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)]

There has been a spate of crimes in Wilsden, a normally quiet village in my constituency, culminating in popular local vet Terry Croud being subjected to a hammer attack and having his car stolen on Friday last week. The police and crime commissioner says that the Home Office is getting more money from the Treasury for policing, but it is not passing it on to police forces. Will the Home Secretary commit to West Yorkshire police getting sufficient funding, so that they can catch those vile thugs and people in Wilsden can again sleep easily at night?

[Mr Hurd]

I will restate what the Home Secretary said earlier: public safety is a No. 1 priority for the Government. We are determined to make sure that the police have the resources they need, which is why we are reviewing funding. I have spoken to police colleagues personally, and as I said previously, decisions on the 2018-19 funding settlement will be put before the House shortly.

[Sarah Champion (Rotherham) (Lab)]

T8. We have hundreds of new cases of child sexual exploitation in Rotherham, and literally thousands of adult survivors who have not received support or justice. Two weeks ago, the Home Office rejected our application for additional funding for victims and survivors. Will the new Minister please meet me, the council and the police, so that we can find a solution once and for all for the victims and survivors?

[Kelly Tolhurst (Rochester and Strood) (Con)]

Rural parts of my constituency, such as the village of Allhallows, have suffered from an increase in antisocial behaviour, but in rural areas getting support from the police and PCSOs can be difficult, leaving troublemakers free to intimidate residents. Will the Minister work with our police force to see how we can boost support in places such as Allhallows?

[Mr Hurd]

I have spoken with or visited every single police force in England and Wales, including Kent, so I am well aware of the concerns felt by colleagues from rural areas about pressures on the police and the support that rural communities get. That all feeds into the process of evidence-based decision making by the Government on the right funding settlement for 2018-19.

[Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab)]

T9. Will the Home Secretary take steps to ensure that police forces are better resourced to roll out domestic violence protection orders more widely?

Assaults on Emergency Workers (Offences) Bill

Nick Hurd Excerpts

Committee Debate: House of Commons
Wednesday 15th November 2017 Public Bill Committees

[Chris Bryant]

When I was re-reading the Second Reading debate last night and remembered that the hon. Gentleman had joined the Committee, I thought it was just as well that he joined very late. Otherwise, he would have tabled an amendment to that effect, we would be debating it this morning, and I would have had to prepare for it.

The exegesis is simply that I was initially hopeful of a two-year maximum sentence on indictment. Obviously, in nearly every—in fact, in all—other cases, the sentence in a magistrates court is six months on summary conviction. That is what I had assumed that we would be proceeding with, but the Government were keener to go to 12 and 12. I hope that the Minister will be able to answer on that point later. I am enormously grateful for the support that the Government have given in making sure that the legislation is in good shape. There have been some tussles along the way, and we may want to return to the issue of sentence length on Report. I think there is still an argument for a maximum of two years for an offence, but others argue that that would be disproportionate when there are other offences that one could be convicted of that would attract sentences of anything between two and five years. Some people are arguing that that might be a more sensible route to go down when seeking to prosecute.

The new offence in clause 1 also applies to those who are off duty when they are performing the functions that they would have been performing if they were on duty. That is an important provision. Legislation in Scotland is similar but is far more complicated and difficult to use in prosecutions, and there have been instances where that has been used effectively as a loophole. It is also important to say that, as with all such legislation, the offence is not retrospective.

The second provision in clause 2 is the new aggravated offence in relation to seven sections of the Offences Against the Person Act 1861 and manslaughter, kidnapping and ancillary offences. I am glad to say that those ancillary offences cover quite a broad range of those who might be caught. This particular provision has taken the model of the Criminal Justice Act 2003, which created an aggravated offence originally in relation to those perpetrating an offence in relation to somebody’s sexual orientation or their disability, and was subsequently amended to include whether the victim was or was presumed to be transgender. That is a good parallel because, although it does not necessarily increase the maximum sentence available, it means that the court has to state the fact that this is an aggravated offence in open court. That will be of some comfort to quite a lot of emergency workers who have gone to court and seen the person get a minimal sentence with no reference to the fact that this was an aggravated offence. Secondly, it means the court has to consider that as increasing the seriousness of the offence.

I have heard people say that the court already has lots of other means of assessing aggravated elements of the seriousness of an offence, but those vary enormously from things such as the time of day to the vulnerability of the person and the venue and so on. It is important that we put this at least on a par with the provisions of the 2003 Act. Again, it would not apply retrospectively.

I hope that all hon. Members will support the inclusion of the two offences.

[The Minister for Policing and the Fire Service (Mr Nick Hurd)]

I join the hon. Member for Rhondda in saying what a pleasure it is to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Ryan, I think for the first time in my case. If you will indulge me, may I also place on the record my admiration for the success that the hon. Gentleman has had so far with the Bill? Unfortunately, I could not attend Second Reading, so I could not place on the record my genuine admiration for his work. He is characteristically modest in describing himself as the midwife of the Bill, although I join him in congratulating the hon. Member for Halifax on her tireless work. Her speech on Second Reading was extremely powerful in helping to explain through human anecdote why such a Bill is necessary. I also join the hon. Member for Rhondda in congratulating the other sponsors of the Bill.

Having sat in the hon. Gentleman’s shoes and taken a private Member’s Bill through in my first Parliament, I also congratulate him on how he has managed the process and resisted many temptations and invitations to add baubles to the Christmas tree that is this Bill. The reality of these situations is that the more baubles you add to the tree, the more likely it is to fall over. This tree stands proud before us today because it has the right number of baubles on it, which is in large amount due to the discipline of the hon. Gentleman in seeking to pursue a Bill that is simple and coherent. He has done that and I congratulate him on it. That in large part explains why the Government are pleased to support the Bill, not least because it sends a clear message that assaults on emergency workers will not be tolerated.

As the hon. Gentleman made clear in his remarks, clause 1 creates a new form of common assault where the assault is on an emergency worker. An offence committed under those circumstances will be triable either way and will have on indictment a maximum penalty of 12 months in prison. That is double the current maximum penalty for the existing offence of assault. The new offence provides increased protection under the law for emergency workers who may be assaulted in the course of their day-to-day work.

Such increased protection will also extend to situations where an emergency worker is not at work, but acts as if he or she was—for example, when an off-duty firefighter rescues someone from a burning building. The offence will sit alongside the existing common law offences of assault and battery but will be targeted at assaults against emergency workers. In the case of a more serious assault against such a worker, the existing offences of actual bodily harm and grievous bodily harm are likely to apply.

It is worth reiterating why we are creating a new form of common assault when perpetrated against an emergency worker.

[Michael Tomlinson]

I am sure the Minister heard my intervention. Perhaps he is answering it in his own way by explaining about other offences that sit alongside this one, but I wonder if he would directly address my point. I believe it is unusual for there to be exactly the same length of sentence for an offence that is tried summarily as for one that is tried on indictment. It may be that he is already answering that point, but I would press him slightly further on whether there is a specific explanation why the six-month and two-year sentences initially proposed have not found favour with Her Majesty’s Government.

[Mr Hurd]

My hon. Friend is too generous; I was not actually answering his question, but I will attempt to do so now. His basic question is why does the maximum penalty seem to be 12 months in both the magistrates court and the Crown court? The maximum penalty is in fact six months in the magistrates court and 12 months if dealt with in the Crown court. The provisions of clause 1(4) make it clear that the provisions should be read as six months, to match the sentencing powers of magistrates. That is a drafting provision to take account of provisions in the Criminal Justice Act 2003 that have not been commenced. I hope that gives my hon. Friend some explanation. I am more than happy to tease that out in the Committee and during further proceedings.

I am keen to register the human dimension. The Second Reading debate was incredibly useful in drawing out, constituency by constituency, real human examples of the risks that our emergency workers take on our behalf and intolerable situations they find themselves in. We know those examples instinctively, but it is useful to bring the experiences together in such a debate. That is why the Bill is timely and right. I am sure every single member of the Committee would join me in expressing our gratitude and respect for our emergency workers. The statistics about the number of assaults across the range of emergency workers covered by the Bill are genuinely shocking, and the Second Reading debate brought that through very clearly. It is very clear to me and the Government that emergency workers deserve the full protection of the law. Tougher sentences for assaults on emergency workers send the clearest possible message that that such cowardly and despicable behaviour will not be tolerated.

On Second Reading, we listened to various suggestions for amendments. Concerns were expressed about whether the maximum sentence for the new form of common assault, where the assault is perpetrated against an emergency worker, is harsh enough. An increase for the maximum penalty from six months to 12 months is exclusively for the lowest level of assault, which may not involve any injury, and the act constituting the offence can be as little as a push. The offences of actual bodily harm or grievous bodily harm are more likely to be used if the assault is more severe. Both those offences already have a maximum penalty of five years.

Members also raised the issue of which emergency workers were covered by the Bill. The original definition of emergency worker proposed would mean that many people working in or for the NHS, who are at risk of being assaulted because they have face-to-face contact with patients or other members of the public as a regular part of their job, would not be covered by the extra protections provided by the Bill. We want to ensure that all those working in or for our NHS, providing services directly to the public, who suffer an assault either in the course of doing their job or using their skills to provide emergency care to members of the public while off duty, are given equivalent protections to those working on the frontline in our emergency services. That definition will be considered in greater detail, I am sure, during our discussions.

[Huw Merriman (Bexhill and Battle) (Con)]

Has the Minister assessed whether it makes sense for the Attorney General’s powers relating to reviewing unduly lenient sentences to have some regard to the new offence? I say that because the new offence runs alongside existing offences. I do not wish to change the drafting of the Bill, but I ask the Minister follow how the offence develops, and in the event that the courts are not sentencing as we would like, perhaps he can look at whether the Attorney General’s power should be enhanced to cover the new offence.

[Mr Hurd]

I thank my hon. Friend for that thoughtful intervention, which I recall he also made on Second Reading. I certainly undertake to discuss that point with colleagues at the Ministry of Justice and the Attorney General himself. My hon. Friend will recognise that what the hon. Member for Rhondda is doing through the Bill, which the Government support, is to put in place new measures that complement the existing legislation and send a strong signal to and through the system that we will not tolerate assaults on emergency workers. We are doing that both through the creation of the new offence and through the aggravating factor, which strengthens the hand of the system.

I was talking about how the scope of the Bill has shifted during the course of the debate. In addition to NHS workers, the original definition of emergency workers included prison officers and persons

“(other than a prison officer) employed or engaged to carry out functions in a custodial institution”,

but it did not cover those working in a situation in which a prisoner is being transported—for example, to court—by someone other than a prison officer. We believe it is important that those individuals are covered by the Bill. We will discuss that when we come to the relevant amendment.

Clause 2 creates an aggravating factor, as I signalled in response to my hon. Friend, which will apply to assaults that are not covered by the new offence of common assault against an emergency worker. The Bill places a duty on the court to consider assaults, which include actual bodily harm, grievous bodily harm and manslaughter, committed against an emergency worker as an aggravating factor in sentencing. The offence will therefore be considered more serious and may merit an increased sentence within the maximum allowed for the offence. The sentencing judge must state in open court that the offence is so aggravated. Clause 2 puts the sentencing guidelines on a statutory basis, but with reference to a specific group of people—emergency workers—and for a specific list of assault and assault-related offences.

[Chris Bryant]

I do not think there is a great need to add to that. One point referred to on Second Reading was whether the complexity of the Scottish Act, in which there is a loophole relating to whether somebody is exercising their functions, would be replicated in this Bill, which will apply to England and Wales. Because of the way the Bill is drafted, I think we can be pretty confident that such a loophole will not exist. I do not think that there are any further issues that need to be addressed.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 1 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 3

Meaning of “emergency worker”

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Bryant]

Amendment 2, which I am about to speak to, would help substantially. The truth is that we do not know the precise statistic the hon. Gentleman is seeking. We might stand a better chance if we kept the provision in the NHS that gathers such statistics, but unfortunately that is being abolished, so we will rely merely on staff surveys, which are a less reliable means of obtaining information.

The good news is that amendment 2 would extend the definition of emergency worker to include all those providing NHS health services. Incidentally, I understand that the phrase “national health service health services” is slightly clumsy, but it is the only way that we could make it work. Amendment 3 specifies the provision of NHS health services, so amendments 2 and 3 have to be read together. The National Health Service Act 2006 and the parallel National Health Service (Wales) Act 2006 have a different way of defining NHS services from the one I suggested we would proceed with on Second Reading. I will read the definition from the Welsh version, because it is exactly the same as the English one, apart from the word Wales is used rather than England, and I am Welsh. It states:

“The Welsh Ministers must continue the promotion in Wales of a comprehensive health service designed to secure improvement—

(a) in the physical and mental health of the people of Wales, and

(b) in the prevention, diagnosis and treatment of illness.”

Members will acknowledge that that is a broad definition of the provision of NHS services that brings a large number of people into the ambit of emergency workers. If a nurse is working on a hospital ward and someone has a cardiac arrest, it would be difficult to argue that they should not be covered by the Bill. It is the same for a hospital orderly working in the building, taking someone down to theatre or whatever. I am delighted with the way that the Government have helped redraft the Bill through amendment 2. I hope all Members will support amendments 1, 2 and 3 and ensure that clause 3 remains part of the Bill.

[Mr Hurd]

The Government not only accept, but welcome clause 3 and the amendments tabled by the hon. Member for Rhondda.

The clause, as the hon. Gentleman made clear, sets out the definition of emergency worker as it applies to the new offence of assault on an emergency worker and as it applies to the aggravating factor. The clause gives a list of occupations or groups of people, which broadly includes the police, prison officers, fire, rescue and search personnel and services, and those providing healthcare services. My hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills sought reassurance on police community support officers, and I confirm that the hon. Gentlemen was entirely correct in the reassurance that he gave.

The Bill focuses on people who have to deal with difficult people in difficult situations as part of their day-to-day job. That job exposes them to a degree of risk of assault and the Bill will give them increased protection in the event of such attacks. Although all the workers in clause 3 are defined as emergency workers, there is no requirement in the Bill that they must be responding to a specific emergency when an offence is committed against them.

We accept amendment 1, which brings those who provide prisoner escort services within the Bill’s definition of emergency worker. That will ensure that the people responsible for escorting prisoners between prisons and courts and for guarding prisoners while they are at court are brought within the Bill’s provisions. We believe it is right that they will be covered by the new offence of assault on an emergency worker and by the aggravating factor.

We accept amendment 2, which aims to widen the definition of emergency worker in the health sector for the purposes of the Bill and to ensure that we protect all those working on the NHS frontline. I thank my colleagues at the Department of Health for their co-operation with us. It is completely unacceptable for those providing healthcare in an emergency situation to be assaulted. However, many healthcare workers and those who support them, whose jobs involve regular face-to-face contact with patients, their relatives or other members of the public, are also vulnerable to assault while carrying out their duties. As has been pointed out, the statistics are genuinely shocking. It is only right that all those working on the NHS frontline are afforded the greater protections provided by the Bill.

I will briefly say something about those who work for first aid organisations, such as St John Ambulance, to which the hon. Gentleman referred. As we push the boundaries of the Bill, we get into difficult definitions and choices, which I am sure will be probed by Parliament as the Bill proceeds. Our view is that staff and volunteers who selflessly give up their time should be protected by the Bill if they are assaulted while providing a service under contract to the NHS. They may also fall within the scope of the Bill if the assault occurs while carrying out an activity that can be classed as a rescue. Those are the circumstances that currently we envisage as enabling those staff and volunteers to be protected by the Bill, but I am sure that there will be views expressed on that as it proceeds.

We consider that this new, expanded definition strikes the right balance—balance is inevitable in these situations—and includes those who fit the definition of emergency workers for the Bill’s purpose. However, we will consider any further proposals put forward by the hon. Member for Rhondda.

[Chris Bryant]

I am very grateful to the Minister for his words at the end. We will look at whether there are further means of tightening this up on Report, but there is not much else that needs to be said on this part of the Bill.

Amendment 1 agreed to.

Amendments made: 2, in clause 3, page 3, line 29, leave out paragraph (h) and insert—

“(h) a person employed for the purposes of providing, or engaged to provide—

(i) NHS health services, or

(ii) services in the support of the provision of NHS health services, and whose general activities in doing so involve face to face interaction with individuals receiving the services or with other members of the public.”

This amendment would broaden the range of health care workers included within the definition of “emergency worker” so as to include all clinical workers providing NHS services and support workers who have direct interaction with patients or the public more generally.

Amendment 3, in clause 3, page 3, line 34, leave out subsections (3) and (4) and insert—

‘(3) In this section—

“custodial institution” means any of the following—

(a) a prison;

(b) a young offender institution, secure training centre, secure college or remand centre;

(c) a removal centre, a short-term holding facility or pre-departure accommodation, as defined by section 147 of the Immigration and Asylum Act 1999;

(d) services custody premises, as defined by section 300(7) of the Armed Forces Act 2006;

“custody officer” has the meaning given by section 12(3) of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994;

“escort functions”—

(a) in the case of a prisoner custody officer, means the functions specified in section 80(1) of the Criminal Justice Act 1991;

(b) in the case of a custody officer, means the functions specified in paragraph 1 of Schedule 1 to the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994;

“NHS health services” means any kind of health services provided as part of the health service continued under section 1(1) of the National Health Service Act 2006 and under section 1(1) of the National Health Service (Wales) Act 2006;

“prisoner custody officer” has the meaning given by section 89(1) of the Criminal Justice Act 1991.” —(Chris Bryant.)

This amendment is consequential on Amendments 1 and 2.

Clause 3, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 4

Taking of samples under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

I hope that the legislation will send out a strong message: spitting is not on, and if people spit at an emergency worker they could be subject to a fine if they unreasonably withhold an intimate sample and they would be required to provide a non-intimate sample. With those comments, I very much hope that hon. Members will support that clauses 4, 5 and 6 stand part of the Bill.

[Mr Hurd]

I wholly endorse what the hon. Gentleman was saying about the pragmatic approach of the clause. I also congratulate him on the way in which he spoke about the sensitive issue involved. I wholly endorse and associate myself with his comments about the progress we have made as a country in our approach to HIV.

We will proceed with sensitivity on the issue, but the fact remains—the evidence is there in all the testimony, case studies and examples given on Second Reading—that, as well as dealing with the physical and mental aspects of being assaulted, in certain circumstances emergency workers may be concerned that they have contracted a serious infectious disease as a result, especially when those attacking them threaten as much. If exposed to the risk of infection, emergency workers might have to wait for up to six months to find out whether they have been infected.

During such periods of uncertainty, the emergency workers may also be concerned that they are in turn infecting those around them, including their friends and family. One only has to read the speech of the hon. Member for Halifax or the examples given by the hon. Member for Rhondda—I am thinking in particular of PC Bruce and PC O’Shea and the story of what they had to go through—to realise that that is absolutely intolerable. That is why the clause is required.

Emergency workers may also have to take medication that ultimately is not required, some of which may have severe side effects. Such incidents can cause great distress and worry to the individuals and their families, so we are very keen to work with the hon. Member for Rhondda to find ways to protect emergency workers from the worries of unnecessary medication that may result from exposure to infectious disease. We therefore support his proposals in the Bill. However, we will want to work with organisations, including the National AIDS Trust and the Terrence Higgins Trust, further to consider their concerns. We will also continue to work closely with the police and other emergency services to ensure that the Bill’s proposals are practical and affordable. The hon. Gentleman has been extremely pragmatic throughout the course of the Bill. We want to put on the statute book legislation that will actually have some effect, and the Bill is genuinely practical in that respect.

I am reassured to hear the hon. Gentleman say he will continue to work with officials and stakeholders to ensure the Bill is the best it can be. I join him in making it absolutely clear that this Bill should not propagate stigma associated with HIV, which was a point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills. It must be noted that there is a very low risk of contracting HIV through biting or spitting blood, and only in very particular circumstances. Alongside creating this power we want to work with the police and emergency workers to ensure there is a better understanding of the risks involved. It is ultimately about supporting our emergency workers and providing peace of mind.

For the sake of consistency we agree that the Bill should extend police powers in the Terrorism Act 2000 to marry up with the extension of powers in the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984. Clause 6 makes further consequential amendments to the Police and Criminal Evidence Act, on disclosure, and to the Human Tissue Act 2004. It exempts blood and non-intimate samples from the controls in that Act for health protection purposes following assaults on emergency workers. It also makes provision for a constable to require a person to attend a police station for the purposes of taking a sample.

[Chris Bryant]

I am grateful for the Minister’s comments. I should put on the record my gratitude to him for the way he has been willing to work with me and to meet and take phone calls at all sorts of strange hours. I should also say that my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Heeley has been particularly helpful to me, not least because this is an area of the law that she knows well, in helping draft the legislation and in persuading colleagues that this is a good piece of legislation. She has not got quite as good a name as Hooley, a former MP several years ago, whose campaign slogan was “Hooley for Heeley”. I do not know what the name of the hon. Member for Hazel Grove would be in similar circumstances.

Without further ado, I hope the Committee will support these clauses and the Bill.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 4 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 5, 6 and 8 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Bill, as amended, to be reported.

Forensic Science Regulator

Nick Hurd Excerpts

Tuesday 14th November 2017 Written Statements

[The Minister for Policing and the Fire Service (Mr Nick Hurd)]

My hon. Friend the Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) has today made the following written ministerial statement:

I am today announcing the reappointment of Dr Gillian Tully as forensic science regulator (FSR). The FSR is an independent office holder responsible for establishing and encouraging compliance with quality standards for forensic science. Dr Tully will be appointed for a second term of three years from 17 November 2017 to 16 November 2020.

[HCWS241]