Northern Ireland (Executive Formation and Exercise of Functions) Bill
Wednesday 24th October 2018
(6 years, 1 month ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Northern Ireland (Executive Formation and Exercise of Functions) Act 2018 Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: Manuscript Amendment to the Business of the House Motion (PDF) - (24 Oct 2018)
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Karen Bradley)
I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
I inform the House that the noble Lord Caine, who will be well known to many Members of this House, cannot be with us because, sadly, his father passed away this morning. I am sure that we will all join together in sending our condolences to him and his family. We send him, and his mother in particular, our very best wishes. [Interruption.] Lord Caine.
Karen Bradley
Yes, Jonathan to you, Mr Speaker, I am sure.
I begin by inviting the House to join me in remembering those who lost their lives in the horrific Shankill Road bombing, the Greysteel massacre and the series of attacks that followed. These atrocities took place 25 years ago, but their effects are still felt by those who lost loved ones and by the dozens of people injured. Those who lost their lives will never be forgotten. People from across the community in Northern Ireland suffered in those dark days, and we must not forget that suffering.
When the people of Northern Ireland voted, by a huge majority, in favour of the Belfast agreement, they voted for a shared future in which no one would have to experience the suffering and loss that took place during the troubles. None of us in this House should forget, or underestimate, what was lost before the Belfast agreement, or what has been achieved since.
The Government remain completely and unequivocally committed to the Belfast agreement, not just because of what it stands for, but for what it has delivered for the people of Northern Ireland. At the heart of that agreement is a devolved power-sharing executive Government, and restoring that Executive remains my top priority. Northern Ireland needs devolved government. It needs all the functioning political institutions of the Belfast agreement and its successors. The only sustainable way forward lies in stable, fully functioning and inclusive devolved government. As Secretary of State, achieving this aim is my absolute priority.
The Bill delivers on a number of commitments that I set out in my last statement to the House on 6 September. It is an important step towards our goal of restoring the devolved power-sharing Executive and Assembly. It seeks to provide for a fixed period in which an Executive can be formed at any time. It provides the space and time for this Government to continue our engagement with the political parties in Northern Ireland, and with the Irish Government where appropriate, so that we can renew the talks process, with the shared aim of restoring devolved government at the earliest possibility. The Bill also provides the Northern Ireland Departments with the certainty and clarity they need to continue to deliver public services during this fixed period.
Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con)
Will the Secretary of State confirm that the Government’s purpose in bringing forward the Bill is limited to ensuring that administrative functions in Northern Ireland continue efficiently, and that it is not about deciding on key devolved policy issues, which are more properly decided on by the people of Northern Ireland and their elected, accountable representatives?
Karen Bradley
My hon. Friend sums up very well the intent of the Bill. It will enable civil servants to continue to run public services; it will not make them law makers. They will not have the power to change policy decisions, but they will have the ability to continue to make decisions. That is why the Bill is a matter for urgent debate, and why it is emergency legislation. Without the Bill, there would be a danger of essential public services in Northern Ireland not being delivered. That is why the Government have brought it forward.
The Bill does not give civil servants any new powers; rather, it gives clarity on the exercise of their existing powers in the absence of Ministers. It will be underpinned by supporting guidance that provides a framework for decision making for Northern Ireland Departments when a judgment is being made on whether those existing powers should be used in the absence of Ministers.
Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)
As the Secretary of State is well aware, the date of 26 March 2019 appears in clause 1. I am sure people are intrigued to know why that date—three days before we Brexit—was chosen.
An agreement would have to be reached by the Democratic Unionist party, whose Members are here, properly take their seats in Parliament, and work assiduously on behalf of their constituents, and Sinn Féin MPs, who absent themselves and do not take their seats. Will an agreement between Sinn Féin absentee MPs and the DUP have to be arrived at by 26 March next year?
Karen Bradley
I will—[Interruption.] I am not having a good day, am I? [Interruption.] I thank the hon. Member for Ealing North (Stephen Pound); he is such a gentleman, as I am sure we all agree. [Interruption.] Better still, he is ensuring that I do not waste any water.
The date in the Bill was chosen after consultation with all the main parties in Northern Ireland. It is not easy to determine the most appropriate date, but we have chosen the date that we believe gives the best chance for an Executive to be formed, and for meaningful talks to take place.
Lady Hermon
That is very helpful indeed. In fact, it is very succinct, and leaves a lot to the imagination. Will the Secretary of State give just one past example of the DUP or Sinn Féin having met a deadline for political talks?
Karen Bradley
I do not see this as a deadline as such; I see it as a date by which a decision will have to be taken on whether an election is called. The hon. Lady will be aware that the date is around the time when purdah starts for local elections. She will know very well that there are local elections in Northern Ireland next May. The date was chosen with that in mind, because clearly once a local election campaign starts, political parties focus on campaigning. She will know that we have had stable devolved government in Northern Ireland, but for most of the last 10 years, we have had a hiatus; that is far too long, and that is not right for the people of Northern Ireland. It is not what they deserve. I am trying to put in place, through the Bill, the best conditions to allow those talks to recommence, and to enable us to get an Executive in place. The date was chosen after consultation with all the main parties and the civil service of Northern Ireland.
Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP)
The Secretary of State has made several references in her speech so far to the political hiatus. Does she agree that the reason we do not have a functioning Executive and Assembly is that out of the five political parties in Northern Ireland eligible to be in the Executive, four—the Democratic Unionist party, the Ulster Unionist party, the Social Democratic and Labour party and the Alliance party—have all said that if the Secretary of State convenes a meeting of the Assembly for the purpose of appointing Ministers, they will be there and will appoint their Ministers immediately and without precondition, but one party, Sinn Fein, has declined to give such an undertaking? Should we not be honest with the House, and instead of blaming all of the political parties, put the focus where it belongs, on the people who do not take their seats here, who do not take their seats at Stormont and who are outside, looking in? They are the people denying Northern Ireland its proper democratic Government.
Karen Bradley
I do not want to provide a running commentary on the talks I have had with parties since the talks broke down in February between the two main parties. What I would say is that I have heard a willingness from parties that they want to get back into Government. That is why I believe that the best thing for the people of Northern Ireland is that we give those parties the chance to get back into devolved Government and provide the best conditions to enable that to happen—and the Bill is part of achieving that. It is important that we use this time and the powers in the Bill to ensure that public services continue to be run and there is no distraction from the parties coming back together and forming a Government.
David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP)
Does the Secretary of State accept that if an Assembly is to come back to Northern Ireland—and we all here support that—the structure of that Assembly has to be right, so that no one party can pull it down?
Karen Bradley
I want to see a fully functioning, devolved Government as we have seen in the past, as that would be best for the people of Northern Ireland, and so that many of the decisions and the policies that right hon. and hon. Members will raise today can be taken in the right place, which is Stormont.
Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)
Is cearta daonna iad cearta teanga agus tá cothrom na féinne tuilte ag lucht labhartha na Gaeilge.
Under the St Andrews agreement of 2006, the British Government pledged to introduce an Irish language Act based on the experiences of Wales and the Republic of Ireland. Will the Secretary of State uphold that commitment by introducing an Irish language Act if power-sharing institutions are not restored within six months?
Mr Speaker
I assume that that intervention contained a translation. That is my working premise—
Liz Saville Roberts
I would be delighted to offer a translation if that would be sufficient.
Mr Speaker
I thought it had been offered, but if it has not been, I hope that the hon. Lady will indulge not just me, but the House.
Liz Saville Roberts
Language rights are human rights and the Irish speakers of Ireland deserve fair play.
Karen Bradley
The hon. Lady is right that the St Andrews agreement includes a political declaration to legislate for an Irish language Act, but it is also clear that once devolved Government restarted in Stormont in 2008, that power became a devolved power for Stormont to legislate on. I support the fact that we have statutory underpinning for many of our indigenous languages. For example, during the 2010-15 Parliament, the Cornish language was granted statutory underpinning, and S4C, which was legislated for by a Conservative Government in the 1980s, has delivered a status for the Welsh language that I am sure the hon. Lady appreciates and enjoys on a regular basis. The important point is that it is a devolved power, and I am sure that as the leader of Plaid Cymru in the House she would not want to see the House undermining the constitutional devolution arrangements that exist across the United Kingdom, or cherry-picking points that right hon. and hon. Members may feel strongly about—and I have great sympathy with much of the strength of feeling—as we have to respect those arrangements.
The Bill will also enable key public appointments to be made in the absence of Northern Ireland Ministers, including reconstituting the Northern Ireland Policing Board. To make it clear to right hon. and hon. Members, a properly constituted Northern Ireland Policing Board is essential for proper governance and accountability, and public trust in policing in Northern Ireland. That is why it is essential that we pass the Bill urgently.
I shall turn to the specifics of the Bill. First, the Bill extends the period provided for in the Northern Ireland Act 1998 for Northern Ireland Ministers to be appointed before the local elections next year. As the House is aware, because Ministers were not appointed by 29 June 2017, the 1998 Act requires a further election before an Executive can be formed. As I set out in my 6 September statement, an election at this time would not be helpful, nor would it increase the prospects of restoring the Executive. The provisions of clause 1 aim to create a period in which an Executive can be formed and talks can take place, by removing that current legal impediment to an Executive being formed for a defined period. Let me be clear about what that means: as things stand, if the parties were able to find agreement and form an Executive, the House would have to pass primary legislation to enable that to happen. During a recess or periods of intense parliamentary activity, we might be unable to find parliamentary time to allow an Executive to form. I do not think that that barrier or impediment to forming an Executive is one that right hon. and hon. Members would want to see, and the Bill will therefore enable an Executive to be formed without the need for primary legislation during the period covered by the Bill.
The Bill also contains a provision in clause 2 that this period may be extended once, for up to five months. That will remove the need for further primary legislation in the event that, for example, Northern Ireland parties have made progress towards a deal, but a short extension is judged necessary to finalise an agreement and form an Executive.
I want to be clear to the House—I will not wait until March to begin efforts to bring the parties together to work towards Executive formation. Following the passage of this legislation, I intend to meet party leaders to discuss the basis, process, and timing for a further phase of talks, and will at all times continue to stress the urgent need to restore devolution. I welcome all efforts to improve political dialogue between the parties in Northern Ireland, including those by church leaders, who I met earlier this month— following their meeting with the parties—to discuss how best to encourage meaningful political engagement towards the restoration of an Executive.
Lady Hermon
I admire the stamina and diligence that the Secretary of State has demonstrated in trying to achieve the restoration of the Assembly since January last year. However, I am intrigued to learn whether the Northern Ireland Office has taken time to assess the unpopularity of the Assembly in Northern Ireland caused mainly, although not exclusively, because the 90 MLAs continue to receive their full salary while not doing a full job. When the Secretary of State announced in September that she would cut MLA salaries, she delayed the cut until November. Can she explain that three-month delay to the people of Northern Ireland who are outraged by MLAs continuing to receive a full salary?
Karen Bradley
I know that the hon. Lady feels strongly about that matter and she has raised it in the House on several occasions. It is not a three-month delay: I made the statement on 6 September. She will understand that issues need to be dealt with, including notifying MLAs of my decision to cut their pay and changing the payroll arrangements. As I said in September, the November pay cheques were the earliest opportunity to cut the pay, so the pay cheques that will be delivered next week will include the pay cut. The next pay cut will be in January, if we have been unable to get the Assembly and Executive reconstituted by then.
Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson
Although I fully understand and appreciate the point made by the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon), I appeal to her to understand that at the end of the day these are people with families. Yes, I understand the public ire at the lack of an Assembly, but most of the Assembly Members are not functioning there properly through no fault of their own. As I explained to the House, it is the actions of one political party in Northern Ireland and its army council—its illegal army council—that are holding the people of Northern Ireland to ransom. It would be nice just for once to hear the hon. Lady call them out for that, instead of labelling in such a way all 90 Members of the Assembly, many of whom are innocent of the charge that they do not want to make progress in Northern Ireland or do their job fully. We treat them unfairly when we label them all in the same way without calling out the people who refuse to do their jobs and sit outside; the majority of Assembly Members want to work full time and do the full job. Of course, the House has taken the decision to cut their pay and we support that, but there are practical issues. They and their families need proper notification. When she makes these points, the hon. Lady should not just put the blame on everyone.
Mr Speaker
Order. Before the Secretary of State responds, let me say this in good humour, if I may. The hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) and the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson) are themselves so unfailingly courteous to colleagues and, indeed, to everybody, that it is really very difficult to get annoyed with them—and I am not. I hope, however, that they will take it in the right spirit if I say that in respect of both of their “interventions”, the erudition was equalled only by the length.
Karen Bradley
Thank you, Mr Speaker. I could not have put it better myself.
The right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson) makes an important point, in that it is not the fault of Members of the Legislative Assembly that this is the situation. The MLAs I meet regularly want to get back to the Executive and the Assembly, and it is important we recognise that. I also want to put on record once again that I am of course not cutting the pay of any of the staff of MLAs. As we all know in this House, our staff work tirelessly for our constituents, as do the staff of MLAs. They are dealing with casework and constituency matters, and it is quite right that those staff should not be prejudiced against as a result of decisions taken by others.
During the period covered by the Bill, it will be necessary to provide Northern Ireland Departments with certainty about their decision-making powers. Clarity is needed on the decisions that they should or should not make. This follows a recent court ruling against a Northern Ireland Department’s decision to approve a major waste disposal and energy generation facility. The Bill clarifies that a senior officer of a Northern Ireland Department is not prevented from exercising departmental functions in the absence of Ministers during the period for forming an Executive, if the officer is satisfied that it is in the public interest to do so. The Bill also requires that I, as Secretary of State, should publish guidance about the exercise of departmental functions, as I will, of course. That includes principles that senior officers in Northern Ireland Departments may take into account when deciding whether or not to exercise a function, and they are required to have regard to that guidance.
Emma Little Pengelly (Belfast South) (DUP)
I thank the Secretary of State for her engagement on this issue. It will come as no surprise to her if I mention the transport hub, which is in my constituency but of regional significance for Northern Ireland. Will she confirm that the decision hoped for before Christmas is the type of decision that can be made under the terms of this Bill by a senior civil servant in the relevant Department?
Karen Bradley
I thank the hon. Lady and her colleagues and members of all the main parties across Northern Ireland who assisted in the development of the guidance. Clearly, as Secretary of State I am not able to say what decision a civil servant would make, but we have looked at the kind of decisions and how they might be made. Given that the example she has cited was approved in the programme for government before the Executive collapsed and that Ministers had indicated that they had wanted to see it happen, it is the kind of decision that a civil servant should be able to take on the basis of the guidance as issued.
Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab)
The Secretary of State is being very generous in giving way. From reading the Bill and listening to the Secretary of State’s answer, it is very unclear to me precisely which sort of decisions will or will not be enabled under this legislation. Can she give us an example of a decision that would not be allowed to be taken by a civil servant?
Karen Bradley
I was just about to say that I have published a draft copy of the guidance and placed it in the Library of the House so that hon. and right hon. Members can have a clear sense of what it seeks to do. The important point is that throughout my period as Secretary of State—I put on record how supportive the hon. Gentleman was when he was my opposite number of the need to make legislative changes on limited occasions in this House for the essential running of public services—when we in this House have taken decisions and passed legislation, we have been very clear that what we are not doing is changing policy. Policy and legislation cannot be changed by anything in this Bill. It is about allowing civil servants to make decisions that have been part of a policy that has previously been agreed. I suggest that the hon. Gentleman looks at the draft guidance in the Library, and says if he has any suggestions for how the guidance could be strengthened or improved to help civil servants.
I want to be clear: civil servants in Northern Ireland Departments have acted in an exemplary fashion. They have behaved without political cover and without an Executive or Ministers in a way that we should all commend. They have enabled public services in Northern Ireland to continue to be run, and the people of Northern Ireland are continuing to receive their public services. Significant reform is needed in many public services, but this is not about policy decisions on reform. It is about enabling those public services to continue, because the best way to change policy and law in Northern Ireland is for Ministers to be in Stormont making those decisions on behalf of the people who elected them.
Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)
Can the Secretary of State say how many legal actions have been initiated in the few days since the contents of clause 3(4), on the retrospective empowerment of civil servants, were made known? I would be grateful for her confirmation or otherwise, but my understanding is that those legal actions that have been initiated will not fall within the scope of the retrospective action that she is seeking to take through clause 3.
Karen Bradley
Perhaps it is best if I write to the Chair of the Select Committee with specific details, although I want to be clear that we have put in a specific reference to decisions taken since the Executive collapsed because we do not want those decisions that have already been taken to be challenged on the basis that once the Bill is in place there is more cover for civil servants. We want to ensure that the decisions that have already been taken are not undone.
Layla Moran (Oxford West and Abingdon) (LD)
I had the privilege of visiting Lagan College, an integrated school in Belfast, and I would like to take this opportunity to convey to the Secretary of State people’s deep frustration that Stormont is not functioning and their deep frustration about how Stormont functions. Same-sex marriage is an example of a policy that Stormont voted in favour of but was then blocked by a petition of concern. As part of bringing the parties back around the table, is the petition of concern something that the Secretary of State will be encouraging them all to look at again?
Karen Bradley
At the moment I need to get this legislation through, then I can bring the parties together. The hon. Lady is right that the petition of concern was discussed during the last talks process. What I cannot say is what will be discussed in the next talks process.
Paul Girvan (South Antrim) (DUP)
On the question of decisions and what are believed to be non-controversial issues, senior civil servants were not making decisions on the back of the Buick ruling, and I want to ensure that those civil servants will be given the cover, under this legislation, to go ahead and deliver on issues that are not controversial, such as broadband, which needs to be delivered to rural areas.
Karen Bradley
It is precisely because of the uncertainty since the Buick judgment that we are bringing forward this legislation. I do not want to be bringing this Bill forward; I would much rather not be standing here at this Dispatch Box, taking the Bill through the House, because I would much rather that there were Ministers in Stormont making the decisions on behalf of their constituents; but there are not, and faced with the reality of the situation, I have to do what I consider to be best for the people of Northern Ireland, to ensure that their public services can continue, and that civil servants can continue to take the essential decisions in the public interest that they need to take.
It is vital that Members read the guidance alongside the legislative measures, as it clarifies the legal basis for the decisions.
Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
I just want to be clear in my mind about what the Secretary of State is saying. I understand she is saying that there will be no change in policy and decisions will be made by civil servants in the Departments without changing policy. What happens when, in the absence of an Assembly and an Executive, there is a challenge to the policy—perhaps for being in breach of our international obligations? What happens then to the policy? Who is responsible then for dealing with that?
Karen Bradley
The hon. Lady introduced her ten-minute rule Bill yesterday, and I know she is a campaigner on a particular topic, which I suspect is what she is referring to. This Bill does not make civil servants lawmakers, so they will not be able to change the law—quite rightly. It also does not enable them to take new policy decisions, because it would be wrong to ask civil servants to do so. Civil servants across the United Kingdom act in an incredibly professional and independent way and they follow the decisions and the policy recommendations of Ministers, and it is right that they do that. The answer to the hon. Lady’s question is that we need Ministers in Stormont, because Ministers in Stormont could quite rightly make those decisions. They could change the law, and they could make policy decisions on behalf of the people who elected them, and that is what the Bill is about—enabling us to have the best conditions and framework for talks to recommence, and for the parties to come back together and do the right thing by the constituents who elected them.
Vicky Ford (Chelmsford) (Con)
As I understand it, the Bill before us allows vital everyday public services to continue. I wonder whether my right hon. Friend could possibly give us some examples of the types of everyday public services that the Bill will help to continue. I suspect they include health, education and transport—things that we all use every day—and it would give greater clarity to everyone to hear those examples.
Karen Bradley
I would strongly advise my hon. Friend to read the guidance, but she is right: the purpose of the Bill is to enable public services to continue to be delivered; and to enable decisions around infrastructure projects, where there has been clear ministerial direction in the past, to be taken, so that we can see continued economic growth. We have seen incredible economic growth in Northern Ireland over the past 20 years. We have 60,000 more people in employment in Northern Ireland today than in 2010. I want to build on that. I do not want to see Northern Ireland go back. In the absence of an Executive, we are in great danger that Northern Ireland will come to a standstill. We cannot allow that to happen. However, the Bill is about the essential running of public services. It is not about policy decisions or changing the law. It is about enabling civil servants to carry on running those services.
Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)
On enacting existing provisions, would the Secretary of State be able to explain something to me? The Londonderry airport, which is owned by a municipal authority, has got money for public service obligation expansions. It is owed £2.5 million from a previous Executive decision, which was not drawn down last year. Is that the sort of provision, which has already been made, that could be decided under this legislation, and the money paid over?
Karen Bradley
It would not be right for me to answer definitively on any decision that a civil servant may make when this legislation receives Royal Assent, on the basis of the guidance, but the hon. Gentleman makes a very good point about the kind of decision that they may make. I have used Londonderry airport. It is a great airport, and it would be great to see more flights coming into it—and out, of course.
Owen Smith
I am a relative newcomer to this place—I have been here only eight years—but I have just been to the Library, the Table Office and the Vote Office, looking for a copy of the guidance that the Secretary of State says she has placed in the Library, and nobody has a copy of it. Would she clarify where it is?
Karen Bradley
I have received a nod from the Box, which means that it is there, but we will check as to why it was not available for the hon. Gentleman, because he should see a copy of the guidance, given that I have said it is vital that Members read it. The hon. Gentleman on the Front Bench who has great dexterity when it comes to mopping up water—the hon. Member for Ealing North (Stephen Pound)—appears to have a copy, so I hope that copies will be available for others.
The guidance sets out a clear framework to support Northern Ireland Departments in making a judgment on whether those judgments should be made in the absence of Ministers. The Bill stipulates that I must have regard to representations from MLAs before publishing the guidance, which would of course also be the case, should there be any need to revise the guidance. I would welcome representations from MPs as well as MLAs on its content before I publish a final iteration, which I intend to do shortly after the Bill receives Royal Assent.
Those in the Northern Ireland civil service have a difficult task of weighing up which decisions they can take in the absence of Ministers, and I again pay tribute to their hard work and dedication. The combination of the Bill and the proposed guidance will provide a framework to inform their decision making. For example, it is advised that opportunities should be taken to work towards the 12 outcomes published in the 2018-19 outcomes delivery plan, based on the draft programme for government developed in conjunction with the political parties of the previous Executive.
The guidance takes as its starting point the fact that there are certain decisions that should not be taken in the absence of Ministers. Senior officers in Departments will then be obliged to consider whether there is a public interest in taking a decision rather than deferring it. The guidance does not, however, direct the Northern Ireland civil service to take decisions on the wide range of pressing decisions raised by various hon. Members in their amendments to the Bill. As I said earlier, the principle that established our interventions over the past year is that we will legislate when doing so is necessary to protect the delivery of public services and uphold public confidence.
Lady Hermon
Before the Secretary of State moves on, could she please give some hope and encouragement to the victims of historical institutional abuse in Northern Ireland? We know the recommendations of the Hart report, and we understand from David Sterling, the head of the civil service in Northern Ireland, that legislation was drafted by the summertime. If a departmental permanent secretary does not have the power to take forward the Hart proposals, will the Secretary of State please confirm today that legislation will be taken through this House, because the victims are ageing, some of them are dying, and the situation is morally indefensible?
Karen Bradley
This is a matter that I know the hon. Lady feels very deeply about, and it is the subject of one of the amendments tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison), the Chair of the Select Committee. The difficulty with the Hart recommendations, as the hon. Lady knows, is that they were laid after the Executive had collapsed, and that means we have no ministerial direction on which of the recommendations have cross-party support and which do not. Although, from my discussions with parties, it is clear that everybody wants some action to be taken, it is not clear that there is a consensus in favour of every recommendation. However, I am sure the hon. Lady will be relieved to know that David Sterling has written to me to say that he would like to consult on the recommendations, and I have thanked him for the fact that he is going to do so, because that is something that he can do as a civil servant. Even if he cannot make the final decision on which of the recommendations should be accepted, he can consult on how those recommendations would be implemented, and I welcome that decision.
Emma Little Pengelly
Issues relating specifically to the victims of historical institutional abuse, for whom I think we all feel huge sympathy, have been outstanding for a considerable time. The Assembly collapsed only about a week before the report was due to be published, and that date was known to everyone, but may I suggest that there are other options? For example, we could consider the contributions from the Roman Catholic Church and other institutions that were mentioned in the report. Some work could be done to establish the number of victims who may be able to come forward to claim compensation and redress. It might be possible to consult on a specific scheme, and, rather than just consulting on the recommendations, use the coming weeks and months to make constructive progress in trying to secure justice and redress for the victims.
Karen Bradley
The hon. Lady makes some interesting suggestions. This might be a topic on which we could engage a number of MLAs on a cross-party basis to try to identify where there may be consensus and where there may be recommendations, or other elements, that could be acted on.
The Hart report is an excellent document, and I pay tribute to Sir Anthony Hart, who did a tremendous amount of work. It is right that those victims should receive the justice that is appropriate for them, because they have suffered in a way that they should not have suffered, and all of us in the House feel strongly about that. However, I return to a point that I made earlier. The constitutional settlement is clear, and we cannot cherry-pick the matters about which we feel strongly, on whatever grounds, as matters with which we deal in the House. We have to respect that constitutional arrangement because not to do so would undermine a devolution settlement throughout the United Kingdom, and that would not be the right thing to do.
Lady Hermon
May I urge the Secretary of State please to agree to meet Judge Hart? She has rightly praised the integrity of his work, and the professionalism and dedication of his team. Will she also meet the victims of historical institutional abuse? She personally, as Secretary of State, needs to meet them, and to do so in a timely manner. Will she commit herself to meeting those victims, and also to meeting Judge Hart and hearing directly from him his suggestions about how we could implement his report?
Karen Bradley
I have met victims of historical abuse and heard their testimony. As the hon. Lady will know, when I served as a Home Office Minister, the issue of child abuse in England and Wales was within my remit, and I met many of those victims.
I do not need to be convinced of the need to do this, but we need to proceed in a way that is right and appropriate and that respects the devolution settlement. I would like to see MLAs engaging and cross-party discussion on a number of matters. This might be an issue on which it would be appropriate for all parties to come together and begin to work so that we can get a dialogue started, so that parties can start to regain trust, and so that we have the best chance of seeing devolution restored and power sharing at Stormont. That is the key issue.
Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP)
The Northern Ireland civil service should be engaging with a range of policy decisions, some of which were outlined by my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast South (Emma Little Pengelly). I was surprised to learn from victims only last week that the NICS was engaging with them on a measure that would establish a commissioner for victims and survivors of historical institutional abuse, and a redress board. I find it encouraging that the NICS is doing that, but I find it discouraging that there has been zero political engagement, political discussion or political direction on how best to make progress with these important matters.
Karen Bradley
As I have said, I want to see political engagement and political discussion—I think that that is absolutely vital. We need politicians to re-engage—with civil society, with business and with others—and I am heartened by the initiatives that church leaders have taken to encourage them to do so. I want to see more of that, and I am working with those church leaders and other civic groups to that end. I will reflect on that in the context of the inquiry.
Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con)
My right hon. Friend is advancing a powerful defence of the reason she is not becoming involved in this particular case, namely the constitutional settlement. Does she not think that bolting on abortion legislation would have the same impact as someone else bolting on the matters that she has just been discussing, and that we really should not be using the Bill as a vehicle for such matters?
Karen Bradley
As I said, a number of amendments dealing with several matters have been tabled, including one specifically about the Hart report of the historic institutional abuse inquiry. The Bill is not the vehicle for such measures. This is a Bill to enable civil servants to make the decisions that are necessary to enable public services to continue to be run. Officials will not make major policy decisions as a result of the Bill, but they will act in the public interest, and I think that that is very important.
Karen Bradley
I will give way to the right hon. Member for East Antrim, but then I must make progress.
Sammy Wilson
Does the Secretary of State accept that while there may be some grandstanding today by Members who want to force into the Bill policies that they particularly want to be implemented in Northern Ireland, against the wishes of the people of Northern Ireland, the Bill will not enable any public official to pursue such policies, regardless of whether an amendment goes into the Bill, because the Bill is not designed to give the powers that would rest with politicians and public representatives to civil servants, and, indeed, it would be unfair to do so?
Karen Bradley
The Bill will enable civil servants to act within the law as it stands today. It will not give them the ability to become lawmakers and to change the law. That is a very important point.
Karen Bradley
I give way one final time because I cannot resist the hon. Gentleman.
Owen Smith
How do I respond to that, Mr Speaker? I grateful to the Secretary of State for giving way one last time. My question is also about Hart. This is not grandstanding; it is pursuing an issue about which many of us—including, I know, the Secretary of State herself—feel very strongly. Is she saying that there is no prospect of legislating in this place to deal with the Hart recommendations, and that that will be done only once the Executive have been restored?
Karen Bradley
What I am saying is that the Bill does not enable that to be done. I am focusing on ensuring that the Bill becomes an Act of Parliament so that we can use the conditions that it puts in place to get the politicians back. The priority has to be a laser-like focus on getting politicians to agree to come back to restore power sharing at Stormont. That is what is best for the people of Northern Ireland.
Let me repeat that these measures do not set or change policy direction on devolved issues in Northern Ireland. That is rightly for the Executive and the Assembly, and our overriding priority is to see them up and running again. The NICS needs certainty about decision-making powers, and we should not be seeking to direct it on issues that clearly require ministerial decisions.
The various principles are set out in guidance rather than in the Bill, as Departments need a degree of flexibility and discretion to enable them to reach appropriate and necessary decisions, and to ensure the continued delivery of public services in Northern Ireland. That guidance, above all else, must be operable for Northern Ireland Departments if we are to provide the clarity and assurance that are needed to ensure that public services can continue to be delivered in the absence of Ministers. We have engaged closely with the NICS in developing the guidance, and the factual information provided by the NICS strongly informed the approach that we have taken to it.
The Government also recognise that, in the absence of an Executive, there will be some decisions that we should make, for instance in relation to the setting of departmental budget allocations for approval by Parliament to ensure that public services continue to function. As I have told the House before, we remain committed to making the decisions that are necessary to provide good governance and political stability for Northern Ireland. Those are decisions, and actions, that cannot be undertaken without our intervention, particularly when legislation is needed, as it is for budgets and regional rates. When it comes to devolved decisions conferred on Northern Ireland Departments, however, the UK Government and Parliament should not be intervening directly. Therefore, while there is clearly a need to intervene to provide clarity, it is more appropriate for us to set out the framework for decisions to be made by Departments when it is in the public interest to do so, and that is what the Bill will do.
Finally, the Bill addresses the urgent need for key appointments to be made in Northern Ireland and in the UK in circumstances when those appointments require the involvement of Northern Ireland Ministers. Clauses 4 to 6 ensure that key posts can be filled while minimising the extent of UK Government intervention in what are, rightly, devolved matters. Clause 4 allows the relevant UK Minister to make specified appointments, exercising the appointments functions already conferred on Northern Ireland Ministers. As I set out in my written statement on 18 July, these posts are the most pressing appointments. They are essential for good governance and public confidence in Northern Ireland, and include appointments to the Northern Ireland Policing Board, the Probation Board for Northern Ireland, the Northern Ireland Judicial Appointments Commission and the Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland. These offices are stated on the face of the Bill to address the most urgently needed appointments while minimising the role of UK Ministers in these decisions that should be taken by Northern Ireland Ministers. The Bill takes this narrow approach rather than putting in place a blanket power with a long list of all possible appointments, or transferring these appointments from being ministerial responsibilities to being the responsibility of civil servants. Neither of those alternatives would have been appropriate.
It is important, however, that we provide for a situation in which other vital offices unexpectedly become vacant, or filling other existing vacancies becomes more urgent. For that reason, the Bill includes the provision to add to the list of offices, by means of a statutory instrument, to allow the relevant UK Minister to exercise Northern Ireland Ministers’ appointment functions in relation to additional specified offices.
Paul Masterton (East Renfrewshire) (Con)
All the appointments in the Bill are justice-based, and I completely take on board the point about those being the most pressing, but how does the Secretary of State plan to continue to monitor what other areas are pressing, because there are lots of roles in other areas that need to be filled, but that will not happen under the Bill?
Karen Bradley
We would use the power only if appointments were urgent and necessary. I would consult the main Northern Ireland political parties before bringing forward regulations, as I did before I introduced this Bill. Essentially, we are allowing appointments to be made to bodies when either a failure to appoint would mean that the body becomes inquorate, or the role is required to command public respect and show full accountability.
A large proportion of appointment functions in Northern Ireland are conferred on Northern Ireland Departments. The provisions that I have already outlined dealing with Departments’ decision-making powers provide clarity that Northern Ireland Departments are able to exercise the appointment functions conferred on them during the period for Executive formation. They would not transfer to them any appointment functions currently conferred on Northern Ireland Ministers.
The lack of an Executive has also had an impact on appointments to UK-wide bodies, as a small number require Northern Ireland Ministers to be consulted on or to agree an appointment by a UK Minister. The most pressing example is the appointment by the Home Secretary of a new chair of the Disclosure and Barring Service. Similarly, there are appointments made jointly by UK and Northern Ireland Ministers. The Bill deals with such appointments by allowing them to be made without Northern Ireland Ministers, but it retains the Northern Ireland input by requiring the UK Minister to consult the relevant Northern Ireland Department. The changes represent a minimal intervention and a careful balance to ensure that the bodies and offices are able to operate as normal, but without UK Government intervention at a policy or operational level.
The powers given to UK Ministers under clauses 4 to 6 expire at the point that Northern Ireland Ministers are appointed and an Executive is formed. Responsibility for the appointment functions affected by the Bill would then, rightly, revert to the Northern Ireland Ministers.
The people of Northern Ireland deserve strong political leadership from a locally elected and accountable devolved Government. Achieving that remains my absolute priority, and that is why the Bill aims to restore the devolved power-sharing Executive and Assembly, and sets out a fixed period in which I will work closely with Northern Ireland parties to encourage them to form an Executive. During this period, the UK Government will continue to deliver on their responsibilities for political stability and good governance. Northern Ireland has made huge progress in recent years, but we can achieve even more with a devolved Government who unlock all the potential that Northern Ireland has to offer. I am focusing on achieving that outcome—it is the outcome that we all want to see—and I commend the Bill to the House.
Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab)
May I begin by joining the Secretary of State in offering my condolences to the families of the victims of the Shankill bombing and, of course, to Lord Caine for his own loss?
From now on, there might well be less consensus on Northern Ireland, as it is very difficult to see how the Bill resolves the major issue Northern Ireland now faces. We operate on the basis of consensus, so we in the Opposition will not oppose the Bill’s passage through this House, but the Secretary of State is now straining the consensus that has existed on a bipartisan basis over the years, because the Bill is grossly inadequate for its purposes. We have now had 652 days of inactivity by herself and her predecessors in government. While I totally accept that she is perfectly able to say to others—particularly the leaders of the two major political parties in the Assembly—that they also share responsibility for that lack of action, real energy must be put into this; otherwise what this Bill will represent is simply an abject admission of failures of the past and a gross lack of ambition and hope for the future, and that cannot be acceptable.
There is a constitutional crisis in Northern Ireland. The public are now entitled to begin to lose faith in the political institutions established under the Good Friday agreement. The public lose faith when they see that those institutions fail to work, and there are many issues, which I will touch on later, where we must have concern about the impact on the lives of Northern Ireland’s citizens. This constitutional crisis is therefore also now developing into a human crisis, and that is the measure against which I say that this Bill is simply inadequate.
In the past, we had the political ambitions of John Major as Prime Minister, working with Albert Reynolds, and Tony Blair as Prime Minister, working with Bertie Ahern, and we had the ambitions of the David Trimbles of this world, alongside at that time John Hume, and later on of Dr Ian Paisley with Martin McGuinness, who were prepared to take risks, but so as well were Secretaries of State and Prime Ministers. David Cameron intervened during the Stormont House agreement process, to make sure the prime ministerial writ was there. We have not seen that level of activity from our Prime Minister. I accept that she is, rightly, preoccupied with Brexit, but Northern Ireland matters, and the constitutional situation of Northern Ireland also matters. We must establish that. That is why the Bill is so disappointing.
Let me address why the Bill has come before the House. It obviously has some merit, and we strongly support the need to appoint people to bodies such as the Policing Board. That is common sense and the right thing to do. The Secretary of State is right to say that we need to prioritise some important decisions and that decisions must be made here in Westminster where those decisions cannot be made in Belfast at Stormont. However, the simple fact is that there are many other areas of activity where we must see action, too.
One of the drivers in bringing this proposed legislation forward is the Secretary of State’s concern that she would be judicially reviewed because of the failure to call an election. Ironically, that refers back to the question asked by the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) on the Hart inquiry. Victims of institutional abuse could not judicially review questions about Hart, so they took the judicial review about the timing of elections. It is ironic that the Secretary of State brings this proposed legislation forward but can say nothing helpful about the need for compensation for the victims of sexual and institutional abuse that Hart did so much to unearth. We can take those remedies, and I hope that the Secretary of State will think long and hard about why we cannot also see this as the kind of priority that would serve to achieve a consensus across the whole of Northern Ireland.
Equally, the Buick judgment has caused real uncertainty, but it has placed limitations on the capacity of civil servants. We need to be very certain that we are not doing more and returning to the position where we are asking civil servants to make politically controversial decisions that should only be taken by elected politicians, possibly and best of all, of course, in the Stormont Assembly; but if that does not happen, some of those decisions might have to come to the Secretary of State and this House for us to resolve.
This is particularly true in the light of the extraordinarily long period that the Secretary of State has outlined, with no certainty of any movement until March next year and a further five months if that fails. Frankly, it beggars belief that the Secretary of State should have to tell the House that a further five months could be necessary just in case we are close to an agreement at the end of March. That really challenges all our imaginations. It does not seem a reasonable justification of time to say that five more months would be needed to get us over a hurdle if we were almost there. We are all well aware of the interesting calendar that Northern Ireland presents, but we can and must do better than this.
We need to see energy from this Government in bringing together the five-party talks. The Secretary of State told the House on 6 September:
“I have made no decisions about the right way to get talks restarted”.—[Official Report, 6 September 2018; Vol. 646, c. 350.]
That was after 550 days of inaction. Another 60 days have gone by since then. Has she now given any thought to how to get those talks restarted? We need to see some urgency in relation to those talks. We need to see the leaders of the five political parties get round the same table. If they do not come forward—if that is the challenge posed by DUP Members—let us test that. Let us see who does not turn up for those multi-party talks.
The Secretary of State has already been asked about having an independent chair, which has worked in the past. It is difficult to find an independent chair who would be acceptable to all the parties, but it is not impossible. It was not impossible in the past, and it should not be now. If taking that step could begin to unlock this logjam, we must look at taking it. I have also said to her on a number of occasions that we need to re-institutionalise the use of the British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference, which has fallen into disrepute. It is part of the Good Friday institutions, and it has not disappeared. It has not in any sense been abolished. It met once in London, but I understand that the agenda was so slimmed down that it had little merit other than to reintroduce Ministers from either side of the Irish sea to one another. We have to do better than that. We have to get the next meeting in Dublin tabled, with an agenda that will be helpful in moving us all forward.
We need to see a change of gear and a change in energy, because this matters enormously in regard to the sorts of things that will not be done. People have already asked the Secretary of State about matters that they hold dear in their constituencies, such as the airport in Londonderry, the York Street interchange, the dualling of the A5 and the A6, and the introduction of proper broadband connections across Northern Ireland. Those are important issues, and I agree with her that they could be delivered through the capacity of the Northern Ireland civil service under the Bill. However, there are issues that go beyond that capacity and that the civil service would struggle to address. I want to talk about a number of those issues, because they are massively important. I also want to quote the Secretary of State again. She said that, in the absence of a Northern Ireland Assembly,
“the UK Government will always deliver on their responsibilities for political stability and good governance in the United Kingdom.”—[Official Report, 9 July 2018; Vol. 644, c. 757.]
Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom, and we are now entitled to see this Government beginning to deliver on those issues.
I want to raise some topical issues. A court judgment in Belfast today involves a woman whom I have met, Sarah Ewart. That judgment allows her to take forward her case that the decision to refuse her an abortion in Northern Ireland was outwith the law. I congratulate Sarah on her bravery in taking her case forward. If she were to win it, where would the remedy lie? The Minister of State is a lawyer, and I hope that he will tell us the answer to that question when he responds to the debate. We know that if Sarah has to fight her case all the way through to the Supreme Court, as has happened in a previous case, the chances are that the Supreme Court will make the identical judgment and say that its judgment is binding because it relates to a named individual. In those circumstances, the Supreme Court will make it absolutely clear that the remedy lies not in Stormont but here in Westminster, because the judgment is about the conformity of the United Kingdom, not just Northern Ireland, with the European convention on human rights. Ministers over here have to think about this, because it is an important human issue.
The hon. Member for Edinburgh West (Christine Jardine) has tabled a helpful amendment relating to the Hart inquiry, and I hope that the House will reach a point at which this issue can be resolved. I repeat to the Minister the pleas that we heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith), the hon. Member for North Down and others about ageing victims. I have met some of the victims, and they are no longer young people. Some of those affected have now passed away over the passage of time, so we have to bring the question of institutional abuse to a conclusion. We have to do what we can to implement the Hart judgment, and we cannot wait until August next year or beyond if the Secretary of State’s ambitions do not come to fruition.
We must also look at what the Secretary of State can do here at Westminster. Again, she needs to show some urgency in trying to resolve the kinds of things that have held up the agenda in Northern Ireland in the past. For example, why is the historical enquiries unit not being set up? There is also the question of pensions for victims of the troubles. These are the kinds of things that can be, and should be, done here. The consultation has taken place, and we need to see definitive action now. We need to see a road map of how the Secretary of State will put urgency into these different processes.
The Secretary of State has said that the Bill deals with important issues, and that is true, but there are still issues of enormous importance that will not be affected by the legislation. There are things that the civil servants will not be able to resolve, but they will still affect the lives of the people living in different parts of Northern Ireland. One issue that I have raised before in the House is the benefits system. The Stormont Assembly was able to provide some mitigation against the impact of Government cuts to welfare spending. Ironically, those cuts are affecting my own constituency and those of Ministers here in England, but the protections afforded to people in Northern Ireland through Stormont are already beginning to expire, and they will have done so by next March. Nothing in the Bill will allow those mitigations to continue, even though they were consensually built in by the Stormont Assembly. That kind of decision needs to be made.
On a different level, we have heard today that coaching is now being cut back. That includes the coaching of young people through the Gaelic Athletic Association and the Irish Football Association. This might seem small in the bigger scheme of things, but these small things make a material difference to people’s way of life. We also know that Harland and Wolff is looking for decisions about training programmes. Such programmes would enable the company not to import welders from the Baltic states because it would have the capacity to train people from the Belfast constituencies. That would make a huge difference to individual lifestyles there.
I also want to touch on the crucial question of the Northern Ireland health service, which is now in a very bad state. We know that it no longer has the ability to hit the targets that it has established for itself. For example, the target of seeing most people within nine weeks and none over 15 weeks is now being massively breached. There are people with spinal conditions who have waited more than 155 weeks to be seen in Northern Ireland, and that is simply unacceptable. There is a story of a young girl who needs a spinal correction to allow her to lead a normal life. She cannot wait 155 weeks for that kind of treatment and nor should she have to, so we need a real review of what the health service is doing. Looking at waiting lists across the piece, 1,500 people in England wait for over a year, but the figure for Northern Ireland is 64,000. I almost cannot find the right word to describe that situation. It is so grossly unfair as to challenge all our imaginations, and we simply cannot say that it is okay to wait for reform.
Several of us are wearing Macmillan Cancer Support badges today because we know the importance of cancer treatment. In Northern Ireland, the cancer targets that were established in 2009 have never been met and people are waiting months to be seen. We know that any delay in the first exchanges with doctors can delay treatment and that delayed treatment causes death. I therefore have to say to the Secretary of State that the failure to deal with health reform in Northern Ireland is causing premature deaths among the people of Northern Ireland, and that problem is just as important as seeing people on the Northern Ireland Policing Board—important though that is.
Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con)
I agree with the hon. Gentleman that we would all like to see action on those important issues. He has listed actions for probably about half the Northern Ireland Departments, but what solution should the Government adopt? Yes, we would all like to see the Assembly administered, but if we cannot get that, is he suggesting that we should have direct rule so that we can take such decisions, or does he have some creative solution?
Tony Lloyd
In the past, previous Northern Ireland Secretaries have taken specific action from Westminster—not direct rule, but specific action—in areas of great urgency, such as social care. Looking for specific actions now would show not only that we are taking this constitutional crisis seriously, but that we are taking the human crisis seriously, too. I think that matters, and I hope that the Secretary of State will reflect long and hard on that. We have a few days between now and this Bill going through its stages in the House of Lords, so I hope that the Secretary of State can reflect in that time on what can be done—what ought to be done—to begin to consider some of the issues being raised.
Labour strongly supports the need to appoint people into the right official positions. That is certainly one of the reasons why the Bill has to go through the House today—I hope that no hon. Member would want to see it delayed—but we are worried about the operation of the new powers for civil servants. It must be made clear that they are not politicians and have no mandate to make new decisions. The Secretary of State said that at the Dispatch Box, and I respect her intentions and do not doubt that she meant what she said, but the letter of the law gives enormous power to civil servants, so we need transparency around their decision making and clear and binding guidance to ensure that there can be no excessive action.
In the end, the responsibility for the things that I have discussed—health in particular—should be with the Stormont Assembly and the Executive, but if that cannot happen, it will have to come to this House. I have spoken to the Secretary of State in private about this, but I do not think that I will be breaching her confidence to say that my worry lies with the length of time that is built into the Bill. When the original discussions took place across this Chamber some months back, we were talking about a fairly limited operation, but that has now expanded enormously, with the first knife coming at the end of March and the second in August. That is an awful long time. We have already had 650 days of no change, and we face half as much again if we reach that August deadline. That is not acceptable for the people of Northern Ireland; it is not acceptable constitutionally; and it is certainly not acceptable for the people who need better from this Government.
Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con)
I am grateful to be called in this important debate and am happy to support this Bill. The measures within represent a sensible compromise, but this is like trying to find the least bad of all the really bad options. We would all agree that by far the best situation would be to have an Assembly and to have Ministers of the Executive in place taking such decisions, but that is not the situation that we are in, and it is not one, based on the dates set in this Bill, that I suspect we are going to see in the next six, eight or even 10 months. The question now is about what we should do here for the people of Northern Ireland to try to get important decisions taken to deliver public services as best as they can be delivered, to try to improve the economy in Northern Ireland, and to try to improve the lives of ordinary people.
There are no easy options here, and the most extreme would probably be to appoint direct rule Ministers from this Parliament to take such decisions. That would lead to sensitivities in the relationship with the Irish Republic and the nationalist community, which is sadly not represented in this House—at least not by any nationalist MPs. That is a radical decision that the Government are not keen to take. However, we could have been pursuing other possibilities to try to get a bit nearer to a situation in which we could take some of the decisions that need to be taken. The Northern Ireland Affairs Committee published a report that discussed how we could at least have a shadow Assembly or allow the committees to meet just to get some local engagement and local scrutiny to allow some decisions to be taken from here that have some level of accountability in Northern Ireland.
Sammy Wilson
The hon. Gentleman is making some interesting suggestions as to how there could be some democratic accountability even in the absence of a functioning Executive. However, just as Sinn Féin has blocked the formation of the Assembly and the introduction of direct rule, it has also made it clear that it would not even accept that level of accountability. That is where the real problem lies. Sinn Féin—the boycotters—have been pandered to for far too long.
Nigel Mills
I accept what the right hon. Gentleman says and do not pretend that any of the solutions are easy. Such issues were tested by the Select Committee, but it would have at least been worth trying to see whether we could have some sort of cross-community committees or assemblies. Even if Sinn Fein boycotted them, hopefully the other parties in the Assembly would have been willing to attend. There is a real prize here. There are decisions that need to be taken that would be of great benefit to Northern Ireland, but they will not be taken, even with the powers we are discussing here. If we could have found a compromise that got at least some of those things moving forward, it would not in any way have been a perfect solution, but it would have been better than what we have here.
Mr Gregory Campbell
The hon. Gentleman is making some constructive suggestions, some of which have been made by some of us before. We have an education crisis at the moment, and many schools deplore the current funding position. Does he agree that if MLAs from across the divide in Northern Ireland were to convene in Stormont to discuss a way forward and to make representations to the permanent secretary, they may find that they have much in common and may eventually say, “Why aren’t we back in here taking the decisions, rather than letting one party block everyone else from doing things?”
Nigel Mills
That was roughly what I was alluding to in my response to the previous intervention. If we can find some way of having cross-community meetings and engagement and some sort of agreement that can then allow a decision to be taken here, that would be real progress. However, there would still need to be some Minister in this Parliament to take such decisions with the cover of that level of consent or agreement from Northern Ireland. The Bill does not provide for that.
I am pretty torn about what I would have had as my priority for this Bill. We want decisions to be taken, but we are so far from when the Executive last met that it is unlikely that most of the decisions that we want to have taken will have had any clear steer from the Executive. We therefore need some level of political decision making here when we cannot rely on previous guidance, and we would all want such things to be done by Ministers with some level of accountability and some public scrutiny, not behind closed doors.
My other concern about the Bill is whether Parliament has gone too far. We are now giving huge power to civil servants, and huge power to the Secretary of State to issue guidance that those civil servants have to follow. We are in danger of allowing a situation that we would never normally allow in England. We would all be up in arms if the Government introduced such a Bill for our constituents in the rest of the UK, saying, “We don’t really want to have Parliament scrutinising and deciding all these things. We are going to give the Secretary of State far more power to issue directions to the civil service to take really important decisions.” We would say it was completely unacceptable and undemocratic, that it weakened Parliament and that there was no public scrutiny or public accountability. We would never agree to it.
With this Bill, in effect, we have been forced to find a compromise between those two extremes of wanting decisions but not wanting to have too much power in the hands of civil servants. We have found a compromise: the Secretary of State has to issue certain guidance and the civil servants have to have regard to it. We all know what “have regard to” means. It means that civil servants have to do it unless there is very good reason not to do it.
I am probably in the same place as the Government, and I reluctantly accept that the only way to balance those competing objectives is to have this halfway fudge of advancing a little further, of pushing at the boundaries of what civil servants can decide. We get there by having guidance from an elected Secretary of State. She can encourage, advise and guide civil servants to do certain things, giving some cover from court cases. That is about as far as we can get without appointing direct rule Ministers.
Parliament should be careful to make sure the Bill contains all the protections we want to see. We may or may not have much time to debate the amendments in Committee, but some of the amendments would be helpful, because there is nothing in the Bill, for example, to stop the Secretary of State revising the perfectly reasonable and sensible draft guidance she has published to stick in some important decisions she would like to see taken. At no point in the next six, eight or 10 months —however long this period lasts—would any of us, including the Secretary of State, want to be in a situation where difficult, conflicting, controversial decisions are directed through such guidance because there is no other way of making them.
None of us would like to see hospitals being closed in Northern Ireland through guidance issued by a Secretary of State with no public scrutiny. Such things could be done through guidance, and those decisions could arguably be in the public interest if civil servants felt they were consistent with the best delivery of health services. We could see all manner of difficult things being done, consistent with this Bill, that we would not normally allow.
It would be a constructive step forward if there were a provision saying that, if the Secretary of State wanted to change the guidance she had already published, the new guidance had to be published in draft so it could be scrutinised by the Select Committee to make sure it contained nothing to which this House would not have agreed in advance of this Bill.
The Bill does not say what happens at the end of March or August, whatever period we end up with. Are we saying that this really is the last chance and that, if an Executive cannot be formed by the end of March or August, there has to be an election? We have stretched the wording of the Northern Ireland Act 1998, on the Secretary of State’s duty to propose an election date, for some 350 days. If we get beyond the period for which we are legislating, we cannot stretch it any further. There would have to be an election pretty much forthwith to give the people of Northern Ireland a chance to choose one or more different parties that may be more constructive in their discussions.
I would have liked the Bill to make clear the intentions of this Government and this House. The Northern Ireland Act was agreed between the parties and legislated for by this House, and the consequence of an Executive not being formed is that an election date should be proposed. We do not yet have an election date, which is the right call. An election probably would not have made any great difference over the past few months, as the same two parties would have been put back in the same position, but surely we cannot let this continue forever.
If we get to the end of March or August, is it the Government’s policy that there would then be an election and, as everyone probably thought was the case, we revert to keep trying elections until something else happens? What happens if that still fails? Would we say, “After the election there will be a period for talks, and if you cannot form an Executive by the deadline, it has to be direct rule”? Is that the Government’s plan, or do they plan to limp through until the end of March or August and revert to the position we have been in for the past 350 days?
We are trying to give certainty to the civil service and to the people of Northern Ireland about the position. It would be good to have some certainty on the consequences if no deal can be reached.
My final comments are on appointments. It has to be right that we cannot have important bodies in Northern Ireland and elsewhere not meeting and not functioning because we have not been able to appoint people to them. It makes sense to find a way to make consensual appointments with which all sides of the debate are happy, but those decisions are meant to be taken on a cross-community and cross-party basis in Northern Ireland, and they now have to be taken—I accept with consultation—by the Secretary of State in Westminster. Allowing some form of public scrutiny on the most senior proposed appointments would be helpful in giving confidence that the right people for those jobs are being appointed. Allowing pre-appointment hearings by the Select Committee for key appointments would be a positive step in showing the people of Northern Ireland that the right people are being entrusted with those important functions.
There are ways to improve the Bill but, in the current situation, it is a sensible compromise and it is the best way to achieve the competing objectives. I happily support Second Reading.
Gavin Newlands (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (SNP)
I echo the comments of both Front Benchers on the Shankill bombing. I was 13 at the time, but I remember the incident vividly. I particularly remember the children who were killed, one of whom was also 13, which is one reason why it sticks out. My thoughts and the thoughts of my colleagues are with all those affected by the bombing and the associated attacks that followed.
I reiterate once again that we are extremely disappointed that it has come to this. We accept, rather reluctantly, that the Bill has become necessary amid the current legislative vacuum in Northern Ireland. I have just attended my first British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly, and I found it an extremely useful, enjoyable and sociable event. I met new people from across the UK and the Crown dependencies to discuss the important issues we face together.
Brexit, as would be imagined, was the main topic of conversation. That being said, some of the conversations about Stormont and the restoration of the Executive were rather frustrating. Many people seem to accept that meaningful talks will not resume until after Brexit, which is ultimately why we are debating this Bill today and why we reluctantly support it. However, on behalf of the SNP, I urge the Secretary of State and all parties to get back round the table with a sense of purpose and urgency. Given the importance of the European Union to the Good Friday agreement, it is imperative that Northern Ireland’s collective voice, the voice of its elected Assembly, is heard on Brexit.
Anna Soubry (Broxtowe) (Con)
Does the hon. Gentleman share my concern that, apart from the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon), we do not hear the voice of the majority of people in Northern Ireland on Brexit in this Chamber? The majority of people in Northern Ireland—now the overwhelming majority, according to new polling—voted for us to stay in the European Union. Does it trouble the hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North (Gavin Newlands), like it troubles me, that we never hear their voice?
Gavin Newlands
I wholeheartedly agree with the right hon. Lady. Sinn Féin’s decision not to use their voice is a matter for them. However, only last week the Prime Minister turned down a request to meet the four major parties that advocated a vote to remain in the European Union—Sinn Féin, the Social Democratic and Labour party, the Alliance party and the Greens.
Mr Gregory Campbell
On the parties getting round the table to try to reach agreement, does the hon. Gentleman agree that what the people of Northern Ireland and the people in this House need to hear from each and every one of the parties is two words: “We’re ready”?
Gavin Newlands
From the conversations I had in the past couple of days at BIPA, I can say that some have that desire to get back to the table. That came from all parties I spoke to—people from either community and from none. That is what I heard, but I also heard resignation that it might not happen.
Anna Soubry
It is important that we make the record clear: just as among Conservative and Labour voters there is division, so one cannot say that it is Sinn Féin that represents remainers. Many Unionists voted to remain, and no doubt many republicans voted to leave. The point is that their voice is not being heard in this Chamber.
Gavin Newlands
I am grateful to the right hon. Lady for making that point, as I had not intended to portray it. I have spoken to several Unionists who voted remain, so she makes a valid point.
Gavin Newlands
I am going to make some progress, and then I will come back to the right hon. Members.
The people of Northern Ireland have spent too long in limbo. As we have heard from both Front Benchers, key decisions have to be made and functionality must be restored. The people of Northern Ireland deserve better than this. The Scottish National party, like most Members of this House, firmly believes that new talks must be established immediately to restore the Executive and Assembly. The Secretary of State has to come off the bench on this and be much more proactive, not in legislative terms—we see that today—but in leadership. Along with Irish Government counterparts, she should be working night and day to initiate a new round of inclusive talks. With the UK Government totally distracted by Brexit and internal party infighting, I say again that an independent mediator could and, if no early progress is made, should be brought in, so that progress can be made for the sake of good governance in Northern Ireland.
Nothing must be done to undermine the Good Friday agreement, so this piece of legislation must be temporary. Given the five-month extension the Government have built into the Bill, and from conversations I have had with Members from all communities, it seems to me that there is consensus that Stormont may not get back up and running until September, following the council elections and the marching season. That is almost another full year from now, and for me and many other Members of this House that is a matter of real regret.
There is general consensus, on all sides, that this Bill has, sadly, become necessary, but there are also concerns that having to legislate at all is potentially a slippery slope and a situation that must not be allowed to drift or be extended beyond what is absolutely necessary; a political vacuum must not become the new normal in Northern Ireland. I am relieved that the Government have conceded that their Henry VIII powers in clause 4 were not justifiable, and have heeded the concerns of the House of Lords report and tabled amendments so that the affirmative procedure is used instead.
Amid ongoing austerity, the absence of decision making is straining Northern Irish public services. Decisions are urgently required to provide direction and funding to vital services. As we have heard, current conditions are placing particular pressures on health and education, which are among the most important services a Government can deliver. The collapse of the Executive and the subsequent failure to deal with the situation has also placed great stress on the civil service in Northern Ireland. Direct rule can never be countenanced, but as the shambolic Brexit process is a central reason for the ongoing crisis, the UK Government have a responsibility to ensure talks progress swiftly. The chaos within the UK Government must not be used as an excuse for the lacklustre attempts since February to re-establish political institutions in Northern Ireland. After all, this is not just about public services and appointments; it is about protecting and maintaining the peace process.
I do not want to be accused of scaremongering or of attaching more significance to this than it warrants, but yesterday the first report of the Independent Reporting Commission was published and, although there were clearly parts we can all welcome, the commission is clearly concerned about the impact of the ongoing political impasse. The report praises all those in the public, voluntary and community sectors who are working to tackle paramilitarism, but it says that the absence of political leadership has been a significant impediment to that task. It also notes that in the absence of an Assembly, new powers, such as unexplained wealth orders, cannot be introduced, and that any change in the current regime for managing paramilitary prisoners cannot be considered in the absence of a Justice Minister. I sincerely hope that in reading that report the Secretary of State has been given a renewed sense of urgency on talks.
I turn back to Brexit, as it is wreaking havoc on every aspect of politics in these islands. The broader instability caused by Brexit is a central reason why it has proven so difficult to restore the devolved institutions in Northern Ireland. There are many reasons why the Executive and the Assembly collapsed, but it is Brexit, the elephant in the room, that is prolonging the concerning political vacuum. I remind colleagues across the House that March is quickly approaching and we still have no confirmation of plans to extend the period for withdrawal. The threat of a new border becomes closer by the minute.
Northern Ireland is the central conversation in the Brexit talks, so it is vital that its voice is heard. As we have heard so eloquently, in June 2016 Northern Ireland voted by 56% to remain in the European Union, as 62% of Scots did. The Government continue to try to ignore Scotland—will they also ignore the people of Northern Ireland? If the UK Government plough on with a no- deal hard Brexit, they will wreak further havoc on the businesses, public services and entire economies of all within the UK. That is nothing short of economic vandalism of the highest order.
As we have seen from reports, Northern Ireland will be hit hardest by a disastrous no-deal scenario. This month, business leaders in Northern Ireland have warned that a no deal must be avoided at all costs. According to the Government’s own figures, crashing out would shrink the Northern Irish economy by 12%. The Director of CBI Northern Ireland has warned that this would be the equivalent of another financial crisis. This would be a dramatic hit to GDP inflicted upon the people of Northern Ireland despite their vote to remain.
We in the SNP want to see stability, and strong and inclusive economic growth in Northern Ireland. We want to see Northern Ireland grow, so that public services, businesses, families and individuals can prosper. After all, not only is a prosperous Northern Ireland good for all who live there, but it is in the interests of Scotland, and indeed of England, Wales and our friends across the European Union. The twin threats of a new border and massive economic damage can be easily removed if the UK pursues a policy of staying within the European single market and customs union; there would be no need for new economic borders across land or at sea. Trade and relationships, business or personal, would continue to flourish between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, and beyond.
In a blatant attempt to wreck any agreed backstop in Northern Ireland, the European Research Group cynically tabled reckless amendments to this legislation. The hon. Member for Wycombe (Mr Baker) subsequently withdrew them on Monday, saying that it would not be in the “public interest” to attach them to emergency programming. Perhaps for the first time I find myself in agreement with him and his ERG colleagues, but I would go further and suggest to him that his group and its entirely regressive aims are not in the public interest, and the less we hear from them, the better.
I remind Members that in December last year the UK Government agreed the need for a backstop in the first phase of negotiations with the EU, so they must stay true to their word.
Karen Bradley
I am listening carefully to what the hon. Gentleman is saying, but I wanted to make a point about the amendments tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe. He withdrew those amendments because he recognised the necessity of this Bill for the people of Northern Ireland. I thank him for having done so, because it has meant that the people of Northern Ireland, who need their public services to continue to be delivered, will be able to have that, as this Bill will not now be affected by amendments that would have served to wreck it.
Gavin Newlands
I appreciate the intervention from the Secretary of State, whom I am sure had to urge the hon. Member for Wycombe to withdraw the amendments for that reason. The simple fact is that they should never have been tabled in the first place. In order to protect the Good Friday agreement, Northern Ireland must achieve a special relationship with the EU. The SNP will never support wrecking amendments designed to undermine the backstop and, thus, undermine the Good Friday agreement. Just last week, the First Minister of Scotland said:
“we fully support the Good Friday Agreement and the maintenance of an invisible border. And so the Scottish Government will do nothing to stand in the way of Northern Ireland achieving a special relationship to the EU, if that is what is required.”
Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson
Like the right hon. Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry), a majority of my constituents voted for Brexit. They do have a voice here, and I am that voice.
On the backstop, the hon. Gentleman spoke a lot about the need for economic growth in Northern Ireland, and prosperity is a key part of the peace process, so does he understand our concern that the backstop, which would create a border in the Irish sea and a customs barrier between Northern Ireland and its single biggest market—a market that produces more business for us than the European Union states and the rest of the world combined—would not be a good idea for the benefit of our economy?
Gavin Newlands
I disagree with the right hon. Gentleman. It is clear to most people in this Chamber that the answer is for all UK countries to remain in the single market and customs union, which would take away the need for any border in the Irish sea. I should add that my constituents voted two to one to remain, and they certainly have a voice in this Chamber, too.
Many Members from different parties will agree that the best option across the UK is, as I just said, continued membership of the customs union and single market, which would resolve the need for any economic borders or increased regulation. This policy, which the Scottish National party has proposed for a long time, would also act to protect jobs and livelihoods in Northern Ireland, as well as in Scotland and right across the UK. It is the only political and economic position and policy that makes sense and is achievable.
The UK must give Northern Ireland and the restoration of its Assembly the attention that it deserves and requires. The delays in the establishment of effective talks can no longer be accepted. The Government must get round the table and help to restore the Northern Irish Executive and Assembly to full functionality. The institutions of the Good Friday agreement must be championed and restored by all in this House.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
I have now to announce the result of the Division deferred from yesterday. In respect of the question relating to electricity and gas, the Ayes were 304 and the Noes were 203, so the Ayes have it.
[The Division list is published at the end of today’s debates.]
Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)
It is a pleasure to speak in this Second Reading debate. May I start by expressing my admiration of and gratitude for the Secretary of State’s energy and perspicacity in trying to achieve a settlement in Northern Ireland? Whatever regrets we have about the situation in which we find ourselves, we are all united in our admiration for the energy that the Secretary of State has applied to this process. I sympathise with her, because in the actions she is taking she is trying to sail between Scylla and Charybdis: on the one hand, she must do nothing that would impede the restoration of proper democracy and the devolved settlement in Northern Ireland; on the other, she must do what she knows to be best for the people of Northern Ireland. I shall comment largely on my perception of Northern Ireland lagging well behind where it should be, and increasingly so. I shall express in unequivocal terms my fears about what that might mean in 10 months’ time, if we are no further on.
On Monday, I had the great pleasure of visiting Belfast with members of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee. For the first time—to my very great shame—I visited the Royal Victoria Hospital, where I talked to deeply committed and dedicated professionals who are right at the top of their game and who work there doing their very best for the population of Northern Ireland. I must say to the Secretary of State that I came away deeply depressed, because it is clear that Northern Ireland is not getting what it deserves. In comparison with the population of the rest of the United Kingdom, it is lagging significantly behind on key healthcare indicators. We heard that morning from service users, particularly in the fields of mental health and cancer care—key healthcare areas. Were their experiences to be replicated in our constituencies, we would be very upset indeed. The reasons are complicated, but we are left to conclude that the absence for nearly two years now of Ministers capable of taking decisions is a significant part of the piece.
We are now to complicate another 10 months of potential delay, with no clear solution following that. We could call another election but, as has been alluded to already, without good will on the part of both the principal parties in this matter, it is likely as not that we would get pretty much the same outcome. I have detected no particular enthusiasm or appetite for an Irish language Act, which is the biggest roadblock to the process. I get a lot of people asking, “Why don’t I have the same healthcare expectations as people over the other side of the Irish sea?”, but I do not get angst expressed to me about the inclusion of an Irish language Act. It is self-evident that the vast majority of people in Northern Ireland simply want to get on with their lives. They want to have expectations across a range of public sector functions that at least approximate those that exist in Great Britain. It is a failure for all involved if they do not achieve that sort of approximation. We have a devolved settlement, so there will always be difference—of course there will—and I guess we should celebrate that, but the people of the United Kingdom have a legitimate expectation that, broadly speaking, outcomes will be similar right across the piece. That is not the case in Northern Ireland, and it is getting worse. We have to work out a way to deal with that.
I welcome the Bill, but it should have been introduced to the House well before now—incidentally, that would have given us more time to consider it—because I am afraid that the situation we are currently in was predictable. We have simply lost time. In so far as it is a straightforward, simple Bill that will achieve the outcomes that the Government want, I very much welcome it, although I would have gone much further. The need to go much further is in the guidance. I hope the Secretary of State has some sense from the House that we are likely to support her in the development of the guidance in the months ahead.
I assume that the guidance is the same as that which was given in draft form to the helpful Northern Ireland Office officials who briefed the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee a few days ago. Getting hold of a copy today was quite difficult, but if it is more or less the same, I have been through it and must say that it is cast in extremely anodyne terms. It refers to decisions made by the Executive who have now folded, and to the draft programme for government and its 12 exciting outcomes, which are of course not outcomes at all but aspirations cast in the most anodyne terms imaginable.
In the weeks and months ahead, the Secretary of State will be faced more and more with Northern Ireland slipping backwards compared with the rest of the United Kingdom, unless some fairly significant policy decisions are made. I do not know the extent to which, on the basis of this Bill, it is safe for the Northern Ireland civil service to make some of those decisions, because some of them are really quite complicated, but they need to be made if we are to see key public services restored to the level at which they should be.
Sammy Wilson
Does the hon. Gentleman share my concern not only about the policies that the civil servants will not implement—indeed, the Bill would not give them the powers to implement them anyhow—but that civil servants may even avoid the day-to-day functions of government, because the Bill does not instruct them to do anything? It simply says that it does not prevent them from doing anything. Given the inertia, caution, procrastination and lack of decision making that we have seen so far in the Northern Ireland civil service, there is no guarantee that any decisions will be made, even with the Bill.
Dr Murrison
With respect to the right hon. Gentleman, he is a little harsh on the Northern Ireland civil service, because of course civil servants will act as civil servants always do. They are not politicians, they do not do policy and they are acutely aware, all the time, of legal challenge. I take my hat off to David Sterling and his people for doing what they have managed to do since January or March 2017, but the fact is that key decisions have to be made. We have already heard about the distinction between policy and decision making; some of the decisions are policy, but some are simply nuts-and-bolts decision making. I fear that there will come a point when the line will be crossed, and the Secretary of State may very well come back here to seek further guidance from this House on what she can legitimately do to prevent the backsliding to which I have referred and hopefully start making progress on some of these key public service areas.
Reading through the guidance, I am heartened because it seems to give the Secretary of State really quite a lot of scope. She will have heard—and, I suspect, will continue to hear in the balance of this debate—a great deal of support from across the House for her being pretty proactive in issuing guidance to the civil service so that it can do what is necessary to advance the day-to-day living experience of the people of Northern Ireland. In particular, I note the enjoinder in the guidance that “particular weight” must be given to the avoidance of
“serious detriment to the public interest, public health and wellbeing”.
In response to the point made by the right hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) a few moments ago, I will reflect briefly on one example, which I mention as an exemplar more widely applicable to the whole piece. At the Royal Victoria Hospital on Monday, we heard from a group of cardiologists—people who are leaders in their field—how the inability to share data with the rest of the United Kingdom was proving to be an impediment because there was a failure of a particular decision that had to be made by a Minister. That has clear implications for healthcare in Northern Ireland, because if Northern Ireland cannot compare and contrast its performance and what it is doing with other parts of a similar healthcare service, it cannot really make improvements. That is just a small example of the kind of thing that we are talking about today which I hope will be covered in the guidance. I urge the Minister to ensure that the guidance that she issues is much more specific than that laid out in the framework published today. I think that she will end up having to issue really quite a lot of guidance, and I urge her very strongly indeed to push the limits as far as she possibly can.
I was particularly taken with the remarks of the hon. Member for Rochdale (Tony Lloyd), who speaks for the Opposition. It is actually quite rare in this place that there is much in the way of consensus. Mercifully, reaching it tends to be easier in matters to do with Northern Ireland than in most public policy areas. The hon. Gentleman’s remarks, which I very much welcome, were exceptionally positive in regard to our sense that the Secretary of State really will have to issue guidance that is as prescriptive as possible, within the scope of the Bill, in order to move things along in Northern Ireland. That is the sense that I got from the hon. Gentleman’s remarks.
I do not wish to go on too much longer, but I want to mention another point. In the Brexit context—there is always a risk that a debate like this will be overtaken by the issue of the moment—a great deal is going on in Northern Ireland at the moment that is of a unique nature. I have mentioned healthcare, but much of the economy in Northern Ireland is pretty unusual and has a uniqueness that needs to be reflected by those who are currently dealing with Brexit. Of course, it is a perfect storm in a sense, because not only is there a uniqueness regarding the various sectors; there is also a lack of an Executive—of a body advocating specifically for Northern Ireland. Now, the Government will say, “Well, it’s for us to negotiate in Brussels”, which is perfectly true, but we know full well that Scotland and Wales are separately making their points to our interlocutors in Brussels. That is not the case for Northern Ireland.
Lady Hermon
In relation to Brexit and the Secretary of State’s guidance following this legislation, would it not be helpful for the Secretary of State to look back at the letter signed—if my memory serves me correctly—on 13 August 2016, just months after the referendum, by both the then First Minister Arlene Foster and the then Deputy First Minister, the late Martin McGuinness? Would not that be helpful in showing the priorities that the then First Minister and Deputy First Minister felt were relevant in the Brexit negotiations?
Dr Murrison
I usually agree with the hon. Lady and I agree with her on that point. Of course, the general principle in these matters is that one relies on what has gone on before—the decisions of the Executive and so on. It would certainly be in that tradition and spirit to rely on the remarks of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister at that time, as a starter for 10.
The issue I have is exemplified by the farming and growing sector in Northern Ireland, which the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) will remember we have debated at some length in the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee. There are particular facets of Northern Ireland quite apart from the border that need to be considered in the context of Brexit. It is important for provision to be made to ensure that that happens. I am not clear that it has happened to the extent to which I would like, and I ask the Secretary of State to reflect on that.
I also ask the Secretary of State to reflect on the Select Committee’s report, “Devolution and democracy in Northern Ireland—dealing with the deficit”, which we published in May, and which made some helpful suggestions on how she might consult with the public and various bodies in the absence of an Executive. If this goes on and on, and she is led more and more to issue guidance and consider policy, it is helpful—particularly in the context of the Good Friday agreement, but in any event—to ensure that she has consulted as widely as possible.
If I feel a little disappointment about this Bill—a very concise piece of legislation, on which I congratulate the Secretary of State—it is because it has not really reflected in any meaningful sense the recommendations made in the Select Committee report, which is now just months old. I think that is a mistake, because some of the suggestions are pretty unobjectionable and would have helped matters along, particularly measures such as civic forums, which have been tried before quite successfully and which could give the Secretary of State the sort of confidence that she was doing things that had the support of the majority of the people of Northern Ireland. That is in no way to try to subvert the institutions set up by the GFA or to suggest that they are not going to be restored, but in the interregnum it is important to get some sense of what people want. Those sorts of innovative bodies are a possible solution in the context of Northern Ireland.
We all hope that the Executive will be restored sooner rather than later—I think that the Secretary of State is as confident as she possibly can be that this will all happen within the next 10 months—but Northern Ireland is a unique and special place, and sadly we cannot necessarily guarantee that that will be the case. We therefore need—this has been mentioned previously—some idea about what will then happen.
We have to work on the assumption that a further general election will result in nothing new. Sometimes when we throw the cards up in the air, they fall down in a way that may surprise and delight us—or otherwise—but our working assumption has to be that such a thing will not change very much, which is presumably why the Secretary of State has not called an election up to this point. We will then have to decide what to do. Although I welcome the Bill, we cannot continue to kick the can down the road. One way or another, sadly by force of circumstance, the Secretary of State may again have to start making some of the difficult, crunchy decisions that have been made in this place since 1998.
One thing is for sure: it is simply not acceptable for the people of Northern Ireland to continue to sustain the sub-optimal public services about which my Committee has heard evidence, despite all the hard work of those on the ground and all the effort to try to stop up the gap indefinitely. I sympathise with the Secretary of State in her dilemma and absolutely support her intention to get the Executive back up and running, but I sound a cautionary note and ask her to start thinking: what on earth do we do in 10 months’ time, when we are back in the same place?
Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP)
It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison), the Chairman of the Northern Affairs Committee. In his response to the Bill, he was, as always, considered and thoughtful. He highlighted the lack of ambition that we would ultimately like to see for good governance and for democratic decision making in Northern Ireland.
At the commencement of these proceedings, the Secretary of State made an announcement of condolences to the noble Lord Caine. May I take this opportunity, personally and on behalf of my party colleagues, to extend our condolences to the noble Lord Caine and to his mother following such a bereavement?
There has been a lot of talk so far about the Bill, and there is at least one level of consensus: it is what it is. It is not ambitious. It does not deliver good governance in Northern Ireland. It does not compel decision making in Northern Ireland. It provides no legislative vehicle for issues that require legislation in Northern Ireland. We understand and accept the position that the Secretary of State finds herself in—the constitutional barrier that she is wrestling with—but she knows that we are of the view that this place should be taking a much more interventionist approach towards the affairs of Northern Ireland and that, in that sense, the Bill is an opportunity missed.
I do, however, want to convey my appreciation to the officials from the Northern Ireland Office who have engaged directly with me and with my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast South (Emma Little Pengelly) in our consideration of this Bill. I spent much more time with them than I had planned to, and I think they spent much more time with me than they wished to. I think it fair to say that, while we are where we are, it is not ultimately where they or we would wish to be in terms of how we see this Bill.
But one thing is certain: we should not be here. We should not be yet again considering how we deliver for Northern Ireland in this Chamber—it should be happening at Stormont. Although we have thus far today considered this issue only lightly, Sinn Féin Members need to end their boycott of good governance, of democracy and of participation at Stormont and here at Westminster. They refuse to allow the re-formation of an Executive; they refuse to see a meeting of the Northern Ireland Assembly; and they refuse to take their seats in this House. They have shown no sign that they recognise the concerns of the people of Northern Ireland. They show no sign that they are impacted by the lack of decisions being taken in Northern Ireland. They show no sign that they are concerned about people on ever-increasing waiting lists and ever-increasing housing lists, or about the extension of our mitigation on universal credit and welfare reform that needs to be renewed next year. They show no sign of concern whatsoever.
Sammy Wilson
Does my hon. Friend agree that it is not fair that those Members of the Northern Ireland Assembly who do want to address those issues on behalf of their constituents are being punished by the Sinn Féin lock-out at Stormont? Until it is grasped by the Northern Ireland Office and by the Secretary of State that the responsibility lies at the door of only one party, and unless either the system for establishing the Executive of Northern Ireland is changed or it is made quite clear that sanctions will be imposed, this situation will continue, because there is no penalty on Sinn Féin.
Gavin Robinson
My right hon. Friend is entirely right. The majority of the 90 Assembly Members who have been elected to serve their constituents put themselves forward because they believe in public service, not stagnation. They are not like a puerile child participating in a game, not liking the rules, recognising they are not scoring goals, picking up the ball and walking off the pitch.
Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson
Further to the point made by my right hon. Friend the Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson), in the discussions on the Bill with the Northern Ireland Office, we put forward a modest proposal that, to give some democratic accountability to this mechanism in Northern Ireland, the Assembly Members, on their reduced pay, should have a role in scrutinising the Departments that will exercise the decisions that fall subject to the Bill. The Northern Ireland Office told us that it was not possible to do this because Sinn Féin was unlikely to take part in such scrutiny mechanisms. Sinn Féin has a veto over even the most modest of proposals. How long are this Government going to allow Sinn Féin to veto democratic progress in Northern Ireland?
Gavin Robinson
That is an incredibly fair point to make, and I intend to address it later on. There has been a dereliction of duty. The opportunity to serve the people is not being taken by one party and one party alone. As it holds out for its purely partisan and narrow agenda, everyone else in Northern Ireland suffers.
No one should be under any illusion about our approach to these issues. In October last year, Arlene Foster, our party leader, indicated that she would seek the establishment of the Executive immediately and that if the Assembly created did not deal satisfactorily with the outstanding issues that had been raised as a stumbling block for progress, it should be brought down again in six months. She said, “Put me to the test.” She said, “Let us maturely and rationally reflect on the outstanding issues that you have; you can consider the outstanding issues that we have, and if we can’t resolve them, then bring it down—but at least try.” Before Arlene Foster sat down from making that speech, Sinn Féin had ruled it out. It had ruled out a restoration of the Executive, where Brexit and every public service that was of interest to the people of Northern Ireland could be considered.
As I reflect on these matters, standing here again to debate a Northern Ireland Bill that should not be necessary, I am reminded that the Secretary of State’s predecessor, the right hon. Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (James Brokenshire), said in September 2017 that nine months without a Government to steer policy had left the country with “no political direction” and left critical public service reform wanting. He continued:
“In the continuing absence of devolution, the UK government retains ultimate responsibility for good governance and political stability in Northern Ireland as part of the United Kingdom and we will not shirk from the necessary measures to deliver that.”
That was only 13 months ago, yet here we are. He famously talked of a “glide path” to direct rule. Frustratingly, this is a never-ending holding pattern. It is not in the interests of democracy and not in the interests of good government.
The Bill has been described—kindly—as a “limited measure”. It has been described by my constituency predecessor as
“a sticking plaster on a broken leg”.
It has been described as a poor substitute for democratically elected politicians in Northern Ireland making decisions that affect the people they serve. It is through that prism that we have to consider the Bill.
The Bill does not provide certainty. It contains no certainty on decisions. It does not provide compellability. There is no compulsion on civil servants to make decisions that impact the people of Northern Ireland—decisions that need movement—but on key policy areas, there is no compulsion to do so. There is no progress on the 200-plus decisions that have lain in abeyance among the range of Departments since the suspension of the Assembly.
Sammy Wilson
Is the worrying thing for my hon. Friend the fact that many of those 200 decisions are sitting there not because of the court decision, but because of the inertia that exists in the Northern Ireland civil service? The Bill will not make a blind bit of difference to the fact that some senior members of the civil service—not all—will not make a decision to get up in the morning if they think they might get some criticism for it.
Gavin Robinson
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for his comment. I think it fair to say that there are a range of views on this issue, and some accord with the description that he has outlined. There are civil servants in the Northern Ireland civil service who have been incredibly courageous during the time that we have not had democratically accountable Ministers.
But there is the rub—the Bill relies solely on the willingness of a senior departmental official who is impervious to direction and impervious to the views of politically mandated, democratically elected representatives and who can decide whether or not they wish to proceed. The guidance is there, but if we go through that guidance fairly, I think we could decide that something is within the public interest or outwith it at our own discretion, and that is a fault.
Sir Mike Penning (Hemel Hempstead) (Con)
I will expand more on this in my speech, but this is a critical point to do with the civil service. We can all criticise civil servants. There are good ones and bad ones. But, particularly in Northern Ireland—I experienced this when I was the Minister—the fear of judicial review in the civil service will not be addressed by the Bill. Bravery is fine, but if this Government do not back civil servants, there will still be fears, not about public opinion, but about whether they will be dragged through the courts, which we have seen so many times in the Province.
Gavin Robinson
That is a key consideration. The Bill does not insulate civil servants from the prospect of judicial review. We know from our experience in the courts in Northern Ireland, compared with England and Wales, that ultimately it is easier to progress a judicial review in Northern Ireland. Whether for unaccountable civil servants acting in the best interests of the country or democratically elected Ministers serving the people who elect them and the people of Northern Ireland, the challenges in the courts are still there.
The Bill seeks to replicate the understanding that was there prior to the Buick decision. I remember saying a year ago to the Minister of State that the Departments (Northern Ireland) Order 1999 empowers senior departmental officials to take decisions. Ultimately, it was considered by the courts, and the one fundamental ruling they made was that a decision of such regional significance that was controversial and/or significant should be considered by an Executive Committee. The Bill might seek to address that, but it does not absolve anyone from the legal requirement inserted through the Northern Ireland (St Andrews Agreement) Act 2006, which amended the Northern Ireland Act 1998, for consideration over and above the individual Department.
That was a significant safeguard injected into the legislative framework arising out of the Belfast agreement on controversial or significant decisions. In that sense, the Bill empowers civil servants to a greater level than a democratically elected and accountable Minister. That is difficult. That is my reading of clause 3(5), and it is constitutionally a troublesome step. I have to accept the position that the Northern Ireland Office has adopted, which is that it will not provide an overarching mechanism and it cannot empower officials to replace what would have been the Executive Committee, but the Bill is deficient in that regard. I am not sure that the Secretary of State or the Minister of State will be able to answer or provide any solace on that issue.
Some consideration has been given to clauses 1 and 2, on the timescales for the re-formation of an Executive. I will put on record clearly for the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon), in response to the question that she raised, that never once during any of our discussions with departmental officials in the Northern Ireland Office was a date discussed. No date was discussed, and it is not politically driven. Timescales were discussed, but no specific date was ever discussed.
Lady Hermon
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for allowing me to follow up on that, since he referred to me. There was not a date agreed or discussed with Northern Ireland Office officials, but there was a timescale. I am not a member of the party, so I was not present at the meeting. Let all the people of Northern Ireland hear the timescales. Was it six months or nine months? What was the timescale?
Gavin Robinson
Those considerations are exactly the same ones that the hon. Lady will have had in the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee. The response that the Secretary of State gave to the hon. Lady was that the broad parameters were discussed by all parties. I am being honest and sincere in saying that no date was ever discussed.
Gavin Robinson
No date was ever discussed.
I see in the amendments tabled by the hon. Member for Amber Valley (Nigel Mills) an earnest desire on his part to get progress going in Northern Ireland. He does not want to see a lengthy delay. Let us not kid ourselves. I have spent a considerable part of this speech commenting on the Sinn Féin boycott that exists today and has existed for the last 18 months and that has frustrated the meeting of the Assembly, the formation of the Executive or Sinn Féin sitting in this House.
If the hon. Lady wants an answer to this question, Conor Murphy has been quite clear about Sinn Féin’s position. When we met at the steps of Stormont in August this year and we asked, in the interests of everyone in Northern Ireland, for Sinn Féin to end its boycott, Conor Murphy’s response was, “We envisage Ministers being appointed by April 2019.”
Gavin Robinson
I will just finish this point, if I may.
It is clear that the intransigence, stagnation and unwillingness to resolve these issues has not only pertained for the last 18 months but is intended to continue. That is bad for Northern Ireland, for all the people of Northern Ireland, for the issues that remain outstanding and for the people we represent. I will give way one more time.
Lady Hermon
I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman for allowing me to intervene again. I asked about the timescales that had been articulated by the hon. Gentleman and his DUP colleagues. I did not ask about Sinn Féin. To tweak the question slightly, can we give the people of Northern Ireland any confidence at all that the deadline mentioned in clause 1 of the Bill—26 March 2019—is realistic, or are you just going to talk your way through that deadline? Not you, Mr Deputy Speaker.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Sir Lindsay Hoyle)
Don’t worry, I recognise that. I am not going to enter into Northern Ireland politics.
I have 11 Members down to speak. If some Members are not going to speak, can they let me know? At least then I know what I am working to.
Gavin Robinson
I intend to speak, Mr Deputy Speaker, but you knew that anyhow.
I say respectfully to the hon. Lady—an honourable Lady in name and nature—that that is a fair question, but if she follows the logic of what I am saying, she will see that it is not one for us. We want to see the restoration of an Executive. We have indicated no red lines. We made an offer of an olive branch last August, and it was rejected in 35 minutes; it was not considered. We have the clearest of clear indications from Sinn Féin that it does not envisage having Ministers appointed until April 2019. It is a disgrace, and it bears no resemblance to the needs, the frustrations, the angst, the wishes or the aspiration of every single person who lives in Northern Ireland.
I have mentioned that this Bill lacks certainty. That is a product of the way in which it is framed, and the Secretary of State has sought to issue guidance. It is right that the civil service has been empowered to advance decisions that are couched within the public interest. However, I have no certainty whether a planning decision for the power plant envisaged in my constituency will be advanced by civil servants. Why is it necessary? Because some of our older power stations are coming offline. There is a need for this planning approval to be given so that the power station can form part of a capacity auction this autumn for future years. If it is not advanced, we will be in a difficult situation in Northern Ireland. The same can be said for the north-south interconnector. It is a necessary part of infrastructure that we support—we think it is imperative for the future of our energy arrangements—yet there is no certainty that this Bill will advance a decision on the north-south interconnector.
My hon. Friend the Member for Belfast South raised the transport hub in the south of the city. It is an important project that has regional significance in that it connects every part of Northern Ireland to our city. It has significant public resource allocated to it, and it will be necessary for the future development and aspirational growth of Belfast city and Northern Ireland. Is there any certainty that this Bill will advance that decision? Regrettably, there is none. Professor Bengoa—
Emma Little Pengelly
I will be brief. My hon. Friend referred to the uncertainty about the transport hub in Belfast. Does he agree with me that senior civil servants should heed what has been said today by the Secretary of State? Given the consensus about this issue, there are clear indications that this is very much the type of decision that could be made and in fact, from my point of view, should be made under this guidance.
Gavin Robinson
Absolutely right. Mr Deputy Speaker, we gave time to my hon. Friend, but we have saved time on what I was about to say. This is an important point and such civil servants should take cognisance of their ability to make these decisions, and they should make these decisions.
Very helpfully and importantly, paragraph 10(c) of the guidance outlines that NICS departmental officials are encouraged to
“continue to advance preparatory work”
up to the point at which a ministerial decision would be required. That goes some way to addressing the point made by my right hon. Friend the Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson). No longer can a departmental official say, “I’m sorry, we can’t advance that project or strategy, consider an alternative or engage with interested groups because we don’t have a Minister”; they can, and I think that is crucial.
As a constituency representative for Belfast East, I look to the regional stadium development fund as a prime example. The Executive agreed that they would spend £36 million on stadium development. Strand 1 of that scheme said there would be £10 million for a football club in my constituency—Glentoran football club. Officials say they cannot advance it because they do not have a ministerial decision. Well, of course they can, because it is an Executive priority, it is agreed, the consultation has been issued, the consultation responses are back, the consultation responses have been appraised by officials and they know exactly the direction of travel. Preparatory work still needs to be concluded, particularly with the Irish Football Association on the funding matrix for such a development, and that work should continue.
Transparency needs to be at the heart of this Bill. I was therefore pleased to see in paragraph 15 of the guidance a requirement on departmental officials in Northern Ireland to report to the Secretary of State monthly on any decision that has been taken under the Bill. That is really important, and it goes to the heart of transparency of government. The notion that senior civil servants could take decisions and not tell the people or that they could fail to take decisions that we know remain outstanding is one that is well worth consideration. I am pleased to see that that is included in the guidance.
There is a whole other issue that should have featured as part of this Bill. I look to the Minister to see whether he can give any comfort on this issue at all. We have no legislative forum in Northern Ireland. This is the only legislative forum in this country that can legislate on behalf of Northern Ireland, and every week, Bills go through this place that could and should be extended to cover Northern Ireland: issues that are not controversial; issues that do not cause difficulty between political parties; and issues that are normal and run of the mill. It is important that they are progressed and that we in Northern Ireland do not lose the opportunity for legislative change. We do not have any certainty that the ad hoc procedures and ad hoc approach to the inclusion of Northern Ireland in England and Wales legislation and the extension of that legislation to Northern Ireland will take place. That leaves us in a ridiculous situation. We are asked to come here and vote on issues that affect the people of England and Wales and yet not get any progress for the constituents that send us here. It is not right.
The Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, the hon. Member for Winchester (Steve Brine), had the courage to include Northern Ireland in non-branded medicines cost regulations back in March. He said that he sought a legislative consent motion, but there was no Northern Ireland Assembly. None the less, it was the right thing to do, and it was in the public interest to include Northern Ireland. Yesterday, the Civil Liability Bill should have included Northern Ireland. Animal welfare changes that have been brought forward by the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs should include Northern Ireland. In Westminster Hall, in debate after debate, we ask Ministers whether the Government will extend the same provisions in the absence of an Assembly to cover Northern Ireland, and they say that they cannot because it is devolved. I invite the Minister, if he can provide comfort for us now or later in his summation, to outline the steps that we can achieve to make sure that there is certainty that, when a legislative vehicle gives the opportunity to extend something sensible to Northern Ireland, we seize that opportunity.
Nigel Dodds
My hon. Friend makes a very, very important point. The Bill really covers only the issue of Executive functions and decisions taken at administrative levels, so the whole area of legislation is left to one side—obviously. There is the issue not only of extending legislation for England and Wales to Northern Ireland, but of legislation that is sitting with Government Departments in Northern Ireland ready to go, which cannot be progressed. Earlier, somebody mentioned the unexplained wealth orders, for instance, to tackle paramilitary crime and criminal organised crime in Northern Ireland—a sensible measure that is supported by everybody and that should be progressed. The police want to see it happen; everybody in Northern Ireland wants to see it happen. Why can that not be progressed?
Gavin Robinson
Absolutely. The unexplained wealth orders are a key example of how we should have extension of those provisions for Northern Ireland.
I mentioned the courageous nature of some decisions, and I know that the right hon. Member for Hemel Hempstead (Sir Mike Penning) will agree with me that the Department of Health in Northern Ireland was incredibly courageous in making the changes required through regulation to allow for medicinal cannabis prescriptions. We wanted to see those English and Welsh regulations extended to Northern Ireland, and it has been done through another vehicle, and we are grateful for that.
Here is a key example of where it goes wrong. When the definition of co-ownership housing associations in Northern Ireland was not changed because we did not have an Assembly, but it was changed for England, Scotland and Wales, the derogation offered by the Treasury stopped. That means that if somebody does not take the opportunity to change that definitional issue now for Northern Ireland, our co-ownership schemes will not be able to use financial transaction capital tax, and it will not have the budget to provide the social houses that are required or the social mechanism through which somebody can purchase a home for the future. That is a disgrace.
Gavin Robinson
I will give way one final time, Mr Deputy Speaker, so as not to encourage your ire.
Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson
To assist my colleagues, I have withdrawn from the list of those wishing to speak in this debate, but I want to intervene on the subject of housing. In Lambeg, which is in Lisburn in my constituency, and which is famous for its drums and has some very nice housing, some former Ministry of Defence homes are available for transfer, free of charge, to a Northern Ireland housing association. That housing would provide much-needed accommodation for young couples, first-time buyers and so on. That transfer cannot be concluded because the Department needs ministerial approval. The houses are falling into disrepair. The transfer would benefit the community, and particularly young people in my constituency, but it is not happening. Is not that the kind of decision we want made, so that our constituents benefit?
Gavin Robinson
That is an important point to make, and that matter should be progressed.
I have a final, broad point about the participation of Members of the Legislative Assembly. They have been elected to serve their people and wish to do so, and MLAs are required for good governance in Northern Ireland. There are many decisions that could be taken by civil servants, but there is no direction on what those decisions should be. The only way that civil servants can get a true appreciation of what politicians who have been elected to serve the people wish the direction of travel to be is to ask them—to include a participative process, and to encourage politicians to come in, share their views, and shape policy proposals and decisions for the future. The Bill does not take the opportunity to do that. We have mentioned the historical institutional abuse inquiry. That is a classic example of where elected MLAs could be engaged in discussions on how that matter is progressed.
The hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North (Gavin Newlands) referred to the Independent Reporting Commission, which published a report yesterday. How sad is it that, 20 years after the Belfast agreement, we still have an independent reporting commission on paramilitary activity? I have been in this House for only three years, and in that time, I have had a constituent murdered by the IRA; that is the Provisional IRA, not a dissident group. Another constituent—a serving prison officer—was blown up by dissident republicans, through an under-car booby trap bomb. He died of his injuries a week later.
People come to my constituency office every week because of the pressure that they face from paramilitaries in my community—loyalist paramilitaries; paramilitaries who intimidate young families out of their homes; paramilitaries who lend money and extort a return; and paramilitaries who sell drugs and destroy individuals and their communities. The Independent Reporting Commission report pleads for political direction and political involvement, and for the participation of the people who have been elected to serve our society and want to do so. That is the prize in restoring the Executive. That is what we want. That is what the people of Northern Ireland deserve, and though the Bill does not deliver that, it extends the time and opportunity for delivering that. It is an opportunity that we cannot afford to miss.
Several hon. Members rose—
Mr Deputy Speaker (Sir Lindsay Hoyle)
We have eight speeches to come, and about an hour to play with, so if speeches could be around seven minutes, that would be very helpful.
Sir Mike Penning (Hemel Hempstead) (Con)
As one of two former Northern Ireland Ministers on the Government Benches, let me say that I know how difficult the ministerial team has found it to get to this position with the Bill. The Bill is far from perfect, and it is very easy for us on the Government Back Benches—and for those on other Benches, and for the shadow Secretary of State and the shadow Minister—to tell everybody what should have happened. It would be very easy to criticise—and there was a bit of criticism from the shadow Secretary of State—but the Secretary of State is dancing on the head of a pin, because without a devolved Administration in Northern Ireland, the whole area around the Northern Ireland agreement is in a difficult position.
Nobody in this House—nobody who really understands the Northern Ireland political position—would dream of having a situation in which civil servants were empowered by the Bill to progress things in a way that people in any other part of the United Kingdom would find completely undemocratic, and that would never be passed by this House. To perhaps not dance on the head of a pin, this is as close as we will get to direct rule without direct rule.
Some of the political persuasions in Northern Ireland want that to happen. They want crisis. For their own political beliefs, mostly around a united Ireland, they want to make the whole thing collapse. We are very close to that. We cannot have a situation in which the Province is brought to its knees because one group of people want one thing and another group cannot accept that.
David Simpson
Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that it is time that we had a degree of honesty from Sinn Féin—if that is possible—about whether they really want an Assembly back, and if they do, is it only on their terms?
Sir Mike Penning
That intervention is spot on, in many ways. It cannot be on one group’s terms. The Good Friday agreement is specific that it must involve the groups coming together.
In the time I was a Northern Ireland Minister, I met people from all parts of the Province, from all political persuasions and faiths, many of them together in the boxing rings and around rugby. Not once was the Irish language raised with me during my time in the Province. It may have been raised with the Secretary of State, but it certainly was not raised with me. Myriad things were raised, including the difficult situation of the historical investigations, the health service, bridges, roads and lack of infrastructure—all being blocked because one group in the Assembly had a veto. I like to use the word “veto” because I think the public understand it better. To me, that is fundamentally wrong.
We have to ask today whether Sinn Féin want to be part of the process. If not, they should come out and say so. If they do not want the Assembly, Administration and Ministers in place, they should say so. If they do want the Assembly to sit—although it is difficult to see how it could, considering the previous comments by Sinn Féin’s political leaders—they should get into the room, sit down at the table and thrash it out like their predecessors did.
I dealt with the late Martin McGuinness. I never thought that I would get on with him. We were miles apart politically, but he was actually quite pragmatic. He wanted better things for his community—like some of the parties in the House who do not want to be part of the United Kingdom, but come here, thrash things out and are part of it. That is why I have always found the fact that Sinn Féin does not come here, take part and argue its case fundamentally wrong and undemocratic to its constituents.
Sir Mike Penning
I will not give way to the great Lady, simply because I know so many other colleagues wish to speak in the debate.
The Bill worries me. I worry how amendable it is, which could impose things on Northern Ireland that are devolved matters. I accept that the Assembly is the right place. In a perfect world, I would like to see no abortion, but we do not live in a perfect world. We have abortion legislation here, and I was on the Opposition Front Bench during the passage of the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act 2008—a really difficult Bill—and we had a long debate about abortion. I personally think that a woman’s choice is important and we should allow abortion, but I would like to reduce the length of time in which the foetus can be aborted. However, it would be fundamentally dangerous to impose a decision made here on Northern Ireland when it is a devolved matter. I personally think that it should happen in Northern Ireland, but that is for the politicians who were duly elected there to deal with. If the amendment is passed today, it will cause chaos and division in Northern Ireland, and I shall vote against it if it is selected.
I have to say to those on the Front Bench that I have told my Whips that if that amendment were to be in the Bill, that is one reason why I would not be voting for the Bill later. But there is another reason, which is just as important. A whole group of veterans made Northern Ireland safer than it was when we went in. Many Members of this place have served in Her Majesty’s armed forces and been decorated for it. I find inconceivable the way that a British Conservative Government are dealing with British ex-servicemen. Years and years after we served and after the investigations have taken place, we are being treated like we were terrorists. That is the way we feel.
I first went to Northern Ireland in 1975, and Captain Robert Nairac, who sadly passed away there—we think, although we still do not know the exact facts of what happened to Robert—was my captain. I am surrounded by people saying to me, “Why are you”—this Government, this House—“not protecting me, rather than letting me be dragged back to a court in Northern Ireland for something that was finished years ago and of which I was found not guilty?” That form of double jeopardy is fundamentally wrong and it should be covered in this Bill. The Bill is concise and capable of containing that protection. I raised this matter at business questions last week, and the Leader of the House, in good faith, told me to go and speak to the Ministry of Defence. It has nothing to do with the Ministry of Defence; it is to do with the Northern Ireland Office and the Prime Minister, and that is the most important thing.
Emma Little Pengelly
As has been mentioned a number of times in this House, this week marks the 25th anniversary of the Shankill bomb. The person responsible for that was convicted in a court of law, but was released under the terms of the Good Friday agreement after serving just seven years for the murder of nine innocent civilians, including two children. That is absolutely appalling. Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that it is grotesque that Sinn Féin, who defended that and fought for early release of those murderers from prison, is now going after those soldiers who were in Northern Ireland to defend, to protect and to do their job?
Sir Mike Penning
I completely agree with the hon. Lady. Sinn Féin see their people who were doing those atrocities as combatants. They were part of their army; that is why they called them what they did. But they do not look at our veterans in the same way; actually, I think they look at them with derision. I served with Catholics from Belfast in the Army, and they could not go home—certainly, if they did, they could not tell anyone what they were doing. When I was in basic training, many of them stayed with me, with us, because they felt that they could not go back, even though they were Unionists and they wanted to serve in the British Army. Many people from the south served in the British Army. We have police officers from the Republic now who are serving in the police force in Northern Ireland. That is the sort of thing we had, but we still do not have peace.
What peace do we have in Northern Ireland? We have touched on this, and on the murders of prison officers. When I was the Minister there, David Black was shot with a weapon that most people in Northern Ireland know was an AK47, from the Gaddafi era, that was supposed to have been placed out of use and out of everything. He was shot on the M1 going to work. What sort of peace is that?
Anna Soubry
My right hon. Friend makes a powerful point about the pursuit of people who should clearly not be pursued as they have been through a process that has long been done with. Does he agree that that matter should actually be being determined by the Attorney General for Northern Ireland? It is a clear and blatant abuse of process that old criminal lawyers will understand. Does he also agree that it is not good enough that the covenant has not been fully extended through the entirety of Northern Ireland?
Sir Mike Penning
Perhaps unusually, I agree with my right hon. Friend on nearly everything she says apart from her point about the Attorney General. British soldiers who were there to keep the peace—that is what I was sent to do—were sent by the British Government and so, in my opinion, the only Attorney General who should look at it is the Attorney General here. We were sent there not by Northern Ireland Ministers or Attorney Generals, but by those who were here. My Prime Minister at the time sent the troops. I went in ’74; there were lots before me and lots after us. It cannot be right—it cannot—that this Bill ignores what was given by so many to protect the Province.
Sir Mike Penning
I will not give way, because the Deputy Speaker has already told me off once, but I will conclude.
I fundamentally think I was sent to this place to do a job—to protect my constituents and look after them, after they have looked after us. If this House is not willing to protect veterans who served in Northern Ireland, I am afraid I cannot support the Bill.
Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab)
This is the eighth or ninth time since devolution collapsed in Northern Ireland in January 2017 that we have had so-called emergency legislation, and the Bill is arguably the most important, wide-ranging piece of all that emergency legislation. As the Minister heard, there will of course be support for it, because it is necessary to facilitate the further good governance of public services in Northern Ireland, but it is a profoundly unsatisfactory process, both in general and in particular today—the way in which we are going about delivering legislation for Northern Ireland, and the way in which this piece of legislation has been brought forward.
In the first instance, I would say that the notion that the Bill is a piece of emergency legislation is in itself questionable. Of course it deals with some important matters, notably the appointment of people to the Policing Board and other boards in Northern Ireland, but Members ought to know that the Policing Board has been without its political members since March 2017. It has now been without its independent members for almost six months. If that is such an emergency, the Government seem slightly slow to respond. Equally, I would say that we all understand how the Buick ruling has undermined the status of civil servants and their security when taking important decisions, but that too was some months ago now, and I believe that that could have been dealt with in rather shorter order.
However, the really important point is not the question of the emergency, but the nature of the substance of the issues that we are dealing with today, because as several Members have suggested, the proposed changes are profound. It is everything short, if you like, of direct rule, but it gets as close to direct rule as we could have without calling it as much.
The guidance has been mentioned several times today. I think it was remiss of the Secretary of State to say that that guidance had been placed in the Library of the House, because it had not. It had been published online on the NIO website, alongside the legislation, but it was not referred to specifically in either the legislation or the notes to the legislation, so hon. Members such as myself who would have liked to be able to read that, as far as I am aware were unable to do so, unless we knew that it was on the website, which was not true in my case at least. I know that some people on the Front Bench and elsewhere, and perhaps the Chair of the Select Committee, and certainly some of the other political parties who were consulted, will have been given the guidance, but we were not given the guidance.
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Shailesh Vara)
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Owen Smith
I would be delighted to give way to allow the Minister to explain.
Mr Vara
The guidance to the civil service was deposited in the Library on Monday, and it is also available today on the gov.uk website, from which other people in this Chamber were able to take copies. So, from our point of view, it was deposited on Monday. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will take that at face value, and perhaps seek to retract some of the accusations that he has made in this direction.
Owen Smith
All I can say is that I went personally to the Library and asked the staff, and asked them again, and asked them to check; indeed, I also went to the Table Office and the Vote Office, and none of the people responsible in those offices said that they had a copy of the guidance. We then learned that it had been provided to other people, but only through the NIO website, from which I gather it was given to the Opposition Front-Bench team last week. I do not think that is satisfactory, not least because the substance of the guidance is so important—the issues that the legislation deals and does not deal with, the way in which the Secretary of State is offering guidance to civil servants, and some of the misunderstanding as to how that guidance will be provided on an ongoing basis are incredibly important.
I asked the Secretary of State earlier whether she could give me a specific example of a decision that might or might not be made by the Northern Irish civil service departments in the light of this guidance, and she could not do so. I suspect that that is because anyone who reads the guidance, as I now have, can see that you could drive a coach and horses through it. There are any number of instances that one could choose to identify in which it appears that decisions might be made in the public interest, or in order to improve wellbeing or economic performance in Northern Ireland, and, equally, there are many instances in which one might choose to interpret the legislation as inhibiting such decisions and actions.
The crucial distinction seems to involve the question of policy. However, I put it to the Minister that even if Northern Ireland civil servants cannot amend policy on an ongoing basis, one would assume that, as a corollary, they now have the capacity to make operational decisions that could be of enormous significance to citizens in Northern Ireland, relating to, perhaps, the closure of a hospital, school or some other vital facility.
The hon. Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison) implied, at least, that the Secretary of State would have to provide further guidance in respect of those operational decisions that might be undertaken, but according to my reading of the legislation, that is not the case. My understanding is that the Secretary of State will publish, on a monthly basis, some reference to the decisions that have, potentially, been made, or, rather, civil servants will report to her on the decisions that they have made under the guidance, but there is no obligation on her to provide the House with details of any decisions that she is instructing civil servants to make—or objecting to their making—on behalf of the people of Northern Ireland.
That brings me to the principal point that I wish to make. We seem to be taking a very big step in further strengthening the hand of Northern Ireland civil servants to make important decisions. We have had practically no opportunity to scrutinise the guidance and to understand fully what it means—what its implications are not just for Northern Ireland, but for the devolved settlements across these islands. It seems to me that this is another example of the Government’s rushing through Northern Ireland legislation, characterising it as absolutely vital and urgent when in reality it deserves further scrutiny.
Lady Hermon
Let me remind the hon. Gentleman of a significant point that was made, in a very interesting speech, by the hon. Member for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson)—to whom, of course, I apologise for addressing him earlier as “you” instead of “the hon. Member”. [Laughter.] The significant point in that excellent speech was the indication given by a very senior Sinn Féin member that Sinn Féin had no intention whatsoever of abiding by the timescale and the deadline of 26 March next year. What would the hon. Gentleman and his party colleagues do if Sinn Féin drove through that deadline?
Owen Smith
I am not sure that that intervention is entirely pertinent to the point that I was making. However, I will say in response to it that what I heard was a reference to Conor Murphy’s having said that he did not think Ministers would be in place before April 2019, which is broadly in line with the mysterious deadline that the Secretary of State has specified in clause 1.
My view is that no one party in Northern Ireland is blameless in respect of the impasse in which we currently find ourselves. I think that all parties need to get round the table, and that, crucially, the Governments on both sides of the Irish border need to do more to make this a more dynamic process. Torpor, drift and lassitude have characterised the approach of our Government, in particular, to an impasse that has lasted for nearly two years. If this is such an emergency, I think that the real emergency has been the lack of drive and dynamism. We heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Rochdale (Tony Lloyd) about some of the ideas advanced previously by him and by me about an independent chair, potentially the Prime Minister—maybe not the current Prime Minister, but a Prime Minister—who would have a greater influence in these matters. There are myriad ways in which the Government could be trying to drive this forward, but they are not doing so, and that causes me grave regret.
I shall conclude by making three brief points. This Bill essentially allows civil servants in Northern Ireland to take a very wide-ranging set of decisions and to be given legal and political cover by the Northern Ireland Office to do so, but it does not apparently allow decisions to be taken about the Hart inquiry recommendations on victims of historical institutional abuse, and that is morally indefensible. Hart reported just after the Assembly collapsed, but the inquiry was established by the Assembly and is widely supported across the Assembly. David Sterling, head of the Northern Ireland civil service, has said in terms that he already has the legislation on the books in order to deliver for those victims, and it is a disgrace that this legislation is not going to deal with their case. It should do, and there is no excuse for it not doing so.
Secondly, there are 500 victims of the troubles who have been gravely injured mentally or physically, as a result of no fault of their own in the vast majority of cases. They deserve a victims pension. It is clear that the compensation paid to individuals in the past is insufficient given that those people are living longer, thankfully, than was ever imagined. It is vital that the Government put in place a pension for victims.
Lastly, there is nothing in this Bill that allows for the people of Northern Ireland to have a greater voice than that represented through the DUP on the question of Brexit. The most important issue facing Northern Ireland is the prospect that the Good Friday agreement is in jeopardy right now, as a result of the reckless way in which Northern Ireland is being treated in the Brexit process. It is essential that we get the Assembly back, but if the Assembly cannot deal with it, Ministers in the NIO need to start speaking up, and I say to them, “We need to hear your voices on behalf of the people of Northern Ireland on Brexit, and if you do not speak up, you are letting the people of Northern Ireland down.”
Vicky Ford (Chelmsford) (Con)
I will try to be brief, but this is a subject that I hold close to my heart. Let me start by saying how much I wish that we were not here. As someone who grew up in Northern Ireland and was born in Omagh at the beginning of the troubles, I spent my childhood knowing what it was like to live at a time of violence within the United Kingdom. This year marks 20 years since the Omagh bombing and 20 years since the Good Friday agreement, and the peace that we have today is precious, and also very fragile as the hon. Member for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson) reminded us.
I have said before in this Chamber that we should not jeopardise the Good Friday agreement. We should not jeopardise it with a hard border between Northern Ireland and southern Ireland. We also should not jeopardise the right to self-determination that the people of Northern Ireland made with their clear decision that they wished to be part of the United Kingdom and part of our precious Union here. It is always difficult for someone like me who is no longer living in Northern Ireland but is watching from afar to form a view, but I think that it has partly been having Stormont and having local decision making that has meant that the Good Friday agreement has lasted for so long. Local decision making is key to holding this whole situation together. So that is why I wish we were not here: I wish the Stormont Assembly were meeting and we were not put in the position of trying to pass legislation in this place.
I was back over in Northern Ireland last month, and time and again people outside politics were telling me how frustrated they were by the current situation—not only by the lack of decision making in Stormont, but by what that is doing for key decisions that affect everyday lives. They mentioned many projects—local transport projects, health projects and a particularly beautiful education project. In Omagh, on the site of the old Army barracks, there is a £140 million investment to build the Strule schools project, which will bring all six secondary schools in Omagh on to one site, so instead of the Catholic and Protestant children being in different schools where they never meet, they will still have their own school ethos but they will meet and be together. That will be such a powerful sight, but when I drove past it, the gates were there but there was nothing behind them because the project continues to be delayed. We need to ensure that the civil servants in Northern Ireland can get on with making the key decisions, and we cannot wait forever. That is why I will support Ministers in ensuring that they can get local decision making going.
I want to talk a bit about the subject of abortion, which I know will come up again and again today. I have spoken about it in the Chamber before, and it is an emotional issue on which people have strong personal views. I support the right to choose, and that is something that I believe in very strongly, but I also feel very sensitive about people in one part of the world telling people in another part of the world what they should do on this issue. It is an issue that should be determined locally.
When I spoke about this last time, it was on the eve of the High Court judgment on human rights. I pointed out that if part of the UK were found not to be upholding key human rights, we in this place would have to act. When I was back over in Northern Ireland, I had the opportunity to listen to the testimony of a mother who had had the most hideous experience of being forced to carry a baby to term, even though the baby was never going to live and actually died in the womb.
It is worth having another read of the High Court judgment, because on the one hand it says that we are in breach of our human rights in key areas such as rape, incest and foetal fatal abnormality, but on the other hand the judgment does not stand formally because the Court ruled that the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission did not have the legal power to bring a case in its own name. As I understand it, that is a failure of the legislation that was passed here under the then Labour Government. The language was not clear enough in the Bill that established the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission to give the commission the power to bring such cases in its own name. That issue needs to be corrected, and I am told that that would put the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission on a level playing field with its equivalents in other parts of the United Kingdom. If that had already been the case, that legal judgment would have been binding, which would have helped to facilitate the local changes that are needed to ensure that the women of Northern Ireland do not have their human rights breached.
There are many more things that I would like to say. I believe that it is still worth fighting for frictionless trade across the Northern Irish-Irish border and across the Irish sea and the English channel. By finding a solution that keeps the whole Union together, we will find a relationship that works for our ongoing relationship with Europe as well. I will support the Bill this evening, but with a heavy heart, because I wish that we did not have to be here.
Emma Little Pengelly (Belfast South) (DUP)
I will try to be relatively brief, because my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson) has made a fantastic speech in which he articulated many of the issues that I wanted to touch on. I am also conscious that my hon. Friend the Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), who is sitting behind me, is keen to speak and to have sufficient time to articulate his issues, and I do not want to disappoint him in that regard.
I want to talk about the specifics of this legislation. I echo the words of my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast East in thanking the team at the Northern Ireland Office and the ministerial team for all their work and for the help they have given to me and the Democratic Unionist party team to enable us to understand better the issues in the Bill. They also gave us the space to raise our concerns and issues, some of which I will touch on today.
As already articulated, this Bill is not a perfect solution. In fact, I would go so far as to say that it is far from a perfect solution, because it is so limited in what it can actually do and in the powers that it gives to senior civil servants. The context of course is that that is also difficult and troubling, because giving such powers has at its heart a democratic deficit that goes to the centre of British constitutional democracy. I will touch on that again later, not least because it is almost unprecedented in decision making in any part of our United Kingdom.
Throughout the process, from the first suggestion of this approach, the ministerial team in the Northern Ireland Office will be aware that DUP Members have expressed disappointment over the ambition of the proposals. That disappointment arose not because the Secretary of State was keen to ensure that some decisions can happen in Northern Ireland, but because putting Northern Ireland back into a pre-Buick but post-collapse position is insufficient. The legislation gives only limited scope for decision making by senior civil servants, about which the Secretary of State was frank and clear, but I am grateful that there are some exceptions, although they are small, covering planning and big investment decisions when they are non-controversial and enjoy a broad consensus and when decisions are clearly in the public interest. I put it on the record again that I welcome the Secretary of State’s clarity that a decision like that on the transport hub, which is of regional significance and critical to Northern Ireland’s economy, can be made under the terms in the legislation.
However, I share the sentiments of the hon. Member for Chelmsford (Vicky Ford) that it is extremely disappointing that we are where we are. This is not where any of us want to be. I do not want to go into great detail, but it is worth reminding ourselves of how we have reached this point. My DUP colleagues have already articulated our frustration, because we want to get back into government to work and to deliver for the people of Northern Ireland. My colleagues who are Members of the Legislative Assembly were elected to do that job, but they cannot. They, like Members of every other party, are frustrated from entering the Northern Ireland Assembly and the Northern Ireland Executive by one party, but one of the frustrating things about the process thus far has been the tendency by many to look at all the parties in Northern Ireland and say, “You’re all as bad as each other. You’re all holding back progress. Why don’t you just get on with it and get back into government?”
Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)
I was here for most of the first part of the debate, but I had to be away to attend a Committee. I just want to agree with the hon. Lady. Only one party is stopping Stormont reconvening, and it is Sinn Féin. It is in Sinn Féin’s interest to screw up—I use that phrase advisedly—the whole idea of Northern Ireland being self-governing, and it will continue to do that. I suspect that we will still be here arguing like this next year. I wish that the situation were not like this, because Northern Ireland is a great place. One party—Sinn Féin—is ruining what should be happening.
Emma Little Pengelly
I thank and agree with the hon. Gentleman.
I came in to work for and with Government back in 2007 on the restoration of the Northern Ireland Assembly. I was an adviser in the office of the First Minister, and I worked closely not only with our DUP team, but with the Sinn Féin team. Back in 2007, that was challenging, because the office of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister is a joint office. Part of my job was to advise the First Minister and try to get agreement on a range of issues to be signed off by the Ministers in the relevant Department. What did that mean in practice? It meant that every letter and every policy—everything that went out of the Department—had to be agreed between the DUP and Sinn Féin. I was one of the people charged with seeking those agreements for ministerial sign off.
I say this today not because of any blind hatred or opposition to Sinn Féin, because we worked the system, and we worked it hard, to try to deliver on behalf of everyone in Northern Ireland. We had to make very difficult compromises, decisions and agreements to make devolution work in order to try to stabilise the peace.
It was therefore particularly disappointing when the collapse happened, and I recognise all those people across all parties, including Sinn Féin, with whom we worked to try to make Northern Ireland work. It is in that context that everyone here, including on the Labour Benches, should be clear about who is causing there to be no government in Northern Ireland today. We would go back into government tomorrow morning. We are willing to turn up, and we are not asking for anything. One party is saying to every other party in Northern Ireland, “You are not going into government unless we get our demands.” That is blackmailing not just the other parties in Northern Ireland but the people of Northern Ireland who want to see issues addressed such as health, health transformation, education, necessary infrastructure and the fantastic projects happening on the ground to foster good relations—those things cannot happen.
In the main, the Bill gives unaccountable senior civil servants the power to make some decisions, and it has been acknowledged that most of them will be routine, non-controversial, low-level decisions. As my right hon. Friend the Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) rightly said, the vast majority of the 200 decisions that have been listed are not controversial, but they cannot be taken under the terms of this Bill. That is why, right from the outset of this process, we expressed disappointment, because the time has now come that, if Sinn Féin will not move on and if they want to boycott the Northern Ireland Assembly, they should allow those who want to work to work. There need to be ministerial decisions on a whole range of important issues.
New clause 7 has received some coverage and has caused some controversy because of the two issues relating to Northern Ireland. I echo the comments of many on both sides of the House that we recognise these issues are of deep concern to many people in Northern Ireland. These issues are of deep concern to many people in my constituency. We have heard the experiences of women, particularly in relation to life-limiting conditions and fatal foetal abnormalities. We have listened to their stories and experiences, and they are incredibly difficult. I challenge anyone not to feel empathy for the very challenging circumstances in which those women find themselves.
I spoke on behalf of the DUP in the Northern Ireland Assembly just prior to the collapse on a report we commissioned, and I urged people to wait, to let us see the report and to approach the situation with compassion and care. That report has been received, and I honestly believe that, if the Northern Ireland Assembly were re-established, the report would be debated, considered and decided on where it rightly should be dealt with. The only thing holding that up is the lack of a Northern Ireland Assembly, and there would be no impediment to the Assembly getting back to work tomorrow if Sinn Féin dropped their red line.
Yes, there are some concerns about the Bill, and I conclude by addressing some specific issues for Northern Ireland. The historical institutional abuse inquiry has been mentioned, and I have frequently met victims and victims’ groups over the past seven to eight years. I have put on the record, and wish to say again, that we in the Democratic Unionist party are hugely sympathetic to what those people experienced, particularly as children, in those institutions. That is an example of an issue that needs to be addressed. A huge amount of work needs to happen on a possible redress scheme—a support scheme— and who would be eligible for it and what mechanism could be used to introduce it. But that can happen at the moment, in preparedness for a decision to be made; my understanding is that under the terms of this Bill and guidance that is the type of decision that cannot be made.
In the absence of such decisions, if there is no restoration of the Assembly, I urge the Secretary of State and her team: be a little braver, step up and make the decision to say, “It has gone on long enough.” Victims, those suffering, those in need and those sitting on waiting lists need decisions, and they need to be ministerial decisions. Although that needs to happen now and in a couple of months’ time, it needed to happen yesterday—it needed to happen a year ago. This is now urgent across such a wide range of issues.
Briefly, I wish to touch on the issue of the definition of a “victim”. I mentioned in an intervention that this week marks the 25th anniversary of the Shankill bomb, an incident that demonstrates so acutely the grotesque nature of the definition of “victim” in Northern Ireland. Under that definition, which is holding up issues such as the victim’s pension and other support, the nine innocent victims of that atrocity—that IRA act of terrorism—are gauged to be the same as the IRA bomber who blew himself up and killed himself planting that bomb on that day. That is grotesque and appalling. People right across all the political parties, here and in Northern Ireland, have a number of issues they are really concerned about and care deeply about. I recognise that many care deeply about the Irish language Act, but there are many other issues to address, such as the one I mentioned. What a wrong to turn around and say to the families of those who were murdered and injured on that day, “That bomber is treated the same under victims’ schemes and victim support as the people he went out to murder.”
Connected to that is the point relating to our veterans. We do need our covenant—we need full implementation of the covenant. Northern Ireland has 3% of the UK’s population, but we contribute 7% to the Army, which is vastly higher in terms of proportion across the United Kingdom, and we do deal with the legacy. When people come back, they have done their duty and have seen some terrible things, not because they chose to go there, but because that was their job and duty. We therefore have a responsibility to do what we can to support them. We need the full implementation of the armed forces covenant in Northern Ireland. We also need to address the issue of the disproportionate and grotesque attempts to pursue soldiers and police officers who did their duty, stood up to protect and were only there with a gun in that situation because they were placed there to protect people. We need to get that addressed urgently, and with that I will conclude.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Sir Lindsay Hoyle)
May I just say to the two gentleman that we need to bring on the Front Benchers just before quarter to?
Jim Shannon
Thank you for giving me the opportunity to make a comment. First, let me thank the Secretary of State for introducing this legislation. We know that the people of the Province have been held to ransom by the wiles and machinations of an obstinate, intransigent and downright petulant Sinn Féin for too long. Other Members have said that and I want to reiterate it. It seems Sinn Féin is happy enough to be the party of absenteeism at home as well as in the UK, happy to take the Queen’s notes and not legislate, and happy to leave our country tottering on the brink. It is about time that we in this place reminded Sinn Féin that if it does not and will not do its job in Northern Ireland or here, we and the British Government will do that job for it.
My personal opinion is that we should be implementing direct rule in this legislation if an Assembly Executive are not formed within the next six months. I believe it is time we did that. For too long, we have pandered to Sinn Féin and gotten nowhere, except for in Northern Ireland Departments that are afraid to allocate money. I want to make some comments about that. Clause 3(4) states:
“The absence of Northern Ireland Ministers is not to be treated as having prevented any senior officer of a Northern Ireland department from exercising functions of the department”.
Subsection (5) makes reference to something
“not to be treated as having prevented the exercise of that function”.
That all sounds right and proper, but the fact of the matter is that, although it gives permanent secretaries some function in terms of where they are, it does not go far enough. The difficulty for me came when I read the guidance on decision making. Although the principle of the legislation is to ensure that the decisions that should be taken are taken, the framework for decisions leaves a lot to be desired. The guidance says that
“the absence of Northern Ireland Ministers does not prevent a senior officer of a NI Department from exercising a function of the department if the officer is satisfied that it is in the public interest to exercise the function”.
Surely that translates into, “If an official wishes to stick their neck out, this will not stop him or her.” How many officials are prepared to do that? I suspect that there are very few. It is all very well, but where does the Bill say that decisions must be made unless there is a reason not to make them? We all know the issues clearly. It is important to encourage permanent secretaries to make decisions that have been in the pipeline for too long.
This morning, the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee heard about the need to recruit some 600 police officers before the end of the year. There are some plans to try to do that to bring the figures up. We also have to address paramilitarism. The Police Service of Northern Ireland is clear about what it is doing and wants to do. I am happy with the PSNI’s commitment, but will the Secretary of State say how the Bill addresses it?
Last week, I met the Unison representatives of the health workers at the Ulster hospital in Belfast. They are as annoyed as I am that in Northern Ireland we cannot access some of the drugs that we can access on the mainland. Compared with some parts of the United Kingdom, we have second-class access to cancer care in Northern Ireland. For some people, there is a backstop down the Irish sea when it comes to healthcare for those in certain parts of the mainland compared with us in Northern Ireland. I express great concern about that. Why is it that agency staff cost the health service in Northern Ireland £150 million? I suggest that that is lazy management. It is not cost-effective to spend £150 million this year on agency staff when the staff could be employed full time at a much lower cost.
What about the pay for nurses—the 6.5% over three years for the nurses? There is a backstop down the Irish sea when it comes to the nurses in Northern Ireland getting their 6.5%. Perhaps the Secretary of State will listen to this question, if that is possible: when will the nurses in Northern Ireland get their 6.5% pay increase? Will the changes in this legislation make that happen? We have been very involved with community pharmacies and we understand the issues clearly. We need to help the permanent secretary to enable the changes to take place.
Let me refer to the food-processing grant scheme and the lack of an appropriate scheme. I had a meeting with the Minister of State on this matter, which affects three of the largest employers in my constituency. When I attempted to engage the permanent secretary on the issue, I was given the following response—I quote the Minister of State, who is sitting there writing furiously:
“You have asked for a reconsideration of a decision to restrict the availability of grant to SMEs in Northern Ireland. If the measure was to be extended beyond the SME sector and the available evidence, that would require a direct Ministerial intervention. There are no plans to launch this new scheme in the absence of a DAERA Minister.”
Will the permanent secretaries be able to legislate on the scheme to enable three of my large local business to take advantage of a processing grant scheme that is available on the mainland? It is available in Scotland, Wales and England, but it is not available in Northern Ireland.
On fishing, Brexit will bring us some access to our own waters again, which is good news, but we also need fishing harbours in Portavogie, Ardglass and Kilkeel that can take up the opportunities and make sure that they happen. For that to happen, we need someone in the Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs and the permanent secretary to be responsible, take those decisions and ensure that we get the second slipway at Portavogie, the large scheme at Kilkeel and the improvements needed at Ardglass, which are currently on hold.
We will always talk about our own constituencies, as I have done, but I just want to plug a project in my constituency that is still sitting in the system—the Ballynahinch bypass. Why are we unable to get progress? The bypass is ready to go and the plans are in action, including the acquisition of land, but we are unable to move the scheme forward. A Northern Ireland Water sewerage scheme for new builds is also on hold in Saintfield in my constituency. There are lots of new builds in Newtownards and Comber, and we may have to upgrade those systems as well, so I am very conscious of that issue.
I will soon draw my remarks to a conclusion, because I want to ensure that my hon. Friend the Member for South Antrim (Paul Girvan) has the opportunity to speak. Just before I do, I will mention the education system. Many schools across my constituency have not been able to step forward as our allocation of pupils increases. We are looking into having a new build for Glastry College, or perhaps an amalgamation of Glastry College and Movilla High School. We will have to see where that goes, but we need someone in place to make the decision. We also need someone in place to make the decisions about children’s road safety outside both Grey Abbey Primary School and Abbey Primary School in Newtownards. These are real bread and butter issues for people who want to see change.
We are frustrated with a system that unfortunately does not bring accountability. With respect to the Secretary of State and the Minister of State, who are both sitting on the Government Front Bench, this legislation does not deliver the accountability that I want to see. I challenge the Government to show that it will deliver on the education and bypasses that we need, and on nurses’ pay. We want to see accountability and responsible action from the Ministers and the Department.
I agree with the spirit of the Bill, but it is not forceful enough and will mean that decisions can be avoided. The people of the Province have lived in limbo for far too long. We deserve better; and the DUP deserves and demands better.
Paul Girvan (South Antrim) (DUP)
It is with great sadness that we are here today, debating yet another Bill that should not have to be brought to this House. Unfortunately, we are in this position because of the intransigence of one party, as has been outlined by many speakers. Sinn Féin had the opportunity to go into an Assembly with us; it will not. I am not necessarily saying that we should be dealing with talks. I think that we should recall the Assembly, and that those who are willing and want to be there should be there and take part in business. That might bring about a need to change the way in which the Assembly is set up, but—let’s be honest—we can move things whenever we have to.
This legislation is about allowing civil servants to make decisions, although many such decisions have been challenged. I appreciate that this comes on the back of the Buick ruling, associated with the Mallusk incinerator site—I use the term “incinerator” because that is what it is—and because of that, we have ended up with many civil servants looking for reasons not to make decisions, instead of for reasons to make them. Unfortunately, the people of Northern Ireland suffer as a result.
It is vital that we move forward positively. We do not want to go back to where we were in the past, as has been mentioned by previous speakers. We have moved on quite a bit in the last 20 years; we do not want to go back, nor do we want to be held to ransom by the implementers of some of the troubles or those who brought about some of the atrocities in our Province.
There are difficulties associated with some of these decisions. Many are simple, straightforward and uncontroversial—many of which are associated with major infrastructure. The difficulty is that people have attempted to put something in this Bill that is very controversial to people of Northern Ireland, and we should not be trying to muddy the waters on that matter. I appreciate that it is a difficult situation, and that many people have suffered because they are having a baby who may be born with a life-limiting condition. I understand and appreciate that, but we should not have to attach it to this Bill. If we get an Assembly up and running, these decisions should be made there. These items should not be made red lines before entering into a Government; they should be debated on the Floor of a Northern Ireland Assembly and addressed democratically through that process.
We missed another opportunity in not including something associated with the past—the way that the military have been hounded in relation to what happened when they were trying to bring about peace in Northern Ireland. They were there as custodians of the British Government to ensure that we were able to sleep in our beds at night.
Mr Gregory Campbell
My hon. Friend refers to our esteemed and brave members of the military. There is a lot of talk about heroes of the peace process—does he agree that they are the real, unsung heroes of the peace process?
Paul Girvan
I have to agree with my hon. Friend—that is 100% right. I am from a family who have been affected directly. Many members of my family served in Northern Ireland. Unfortunately we suffered as a consequence of that and are still suffering today.
We have missed a shot in moving these matters forward. However, I do appreciate the work that has gone into trying to bring forward something that will potentially provide an opportunity for some decisions to be made. Not that many weeks ago, we passed a pay rise for the teachers. There was an excuse that that cannot be passed across to Northern Ireland, but we will get a Barnett consequential in the next Budget should we have a mechanism to pass that pay rise on. I believe that this Bill will give civil servants and permanent secretaries the opportunity to make those decisions and pass on those pay rises, which are long overdue.
We have had a long debate on this matter. I hope and pray that this will be the last time that we have to bring to this House such a piece of legislation that would normally be addressed in the Northern Ireland Assembly. Let us hope and pray that we have that Assembly up and running, making decisions, in the near future.
Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)
During the course of this afternoon, two common threads have emerged that have run through all of our discourse. One of those is the unfailing courtesy and respect with which Members have addressed each other across the Chamber. This has been an occasion not for people trying to score parochial or party political points but to try, really try, actually to achieve what is best for those we care the most for: the people of Northern Ireland; the people of this United Kingdom. The second thread is the sadness that we are here at all, as has been expressed so eloquently by so many Members, and the feeling that we have somehow failed as politicians and as legislators because we have had to bring this Bill before us.
The opening comments by the Secretary of State will have engendered great sympathy from across the House and, I should imagine, outside it. She took a huge number of interventions, and she spoke entirely honestly and from her heart. The conclusion that I drew from her words was that if there were any other way of proceeding, we would take it—if there were any other possible mechanism, that is the mechanism we would seek—but we are in a situation where it is simply impossible to continue, and not just because of the great long list of concerns that have been expressed.
If anyone thinks that there is any shortage of urgency about addressing those concerns in Northern Ireland, they should have a look at the briefing paper put out by the House of Commons Library, which lists page after page of long-outstanding issues. We know all about the A5 and the York Street interchange; we know about nurses’ pay and the NHS. We know about all these issues, but we cannot do anything about them. There is the issue of dormant bank accounts. There are things that would be so good for the people of Northern Ireland. We must somehow break this logjam and move forward. Of course, in an ideal world, we would have an Executive and an Assembly, but we are not there yet. We have to do something now.
We should pay credit to David Sterling, the head of the Northern Ireland civil service. There are some pretty tough jobs in the civil service, but his has to be one of the toughest. He has said on the record that he needs to be given legislation, to give “greater clarity and certainty” to decisions, not just because of the decision of Mrs Justice Keegan in the Mallusk case, but for the whole operation of the Northern Ireland civil service. We are asking them to carry the ball when we are not prepared to give them cover.
The hon. Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison) referred to the Secretary of State as sailing a tight and narrow course between Scylla and Charybdis. He may have been piling Pelion on Ossa when he made that statement, because I think we tend to know that, but that is exactly it—the Secretary of State has been walking on eggshells. What we have here is not an attempt to give a blank cheque and carte blanche to the Northern Ireland civil service, but an attempt not to restrain them and constrain them in such a way that they can do nothing. There will be an element of accountability. There will always be judicial review, and there will always be very active local Members in Northern Ireland who will not be silent if matters are failing to be raised.
The shadow Secretary of State, my hon. Friend the Member for Rochdale (Tony Lloyd), referred to a poverty of ambition. I think, in all sincerity, that we could be more ambitious. At the moment, we are firefighting; we are responding to crisis. I do not see that we are laying out alternatives and ways in which we can move forward. The hon. Member for Amber Valley (Nigel Mills) asked, “What can we do best?”, and that is the question we must all ask ourselves. At the moment, we are providing cover, and we are allowing the civil service to act, but we are not solving the problem or resolving it in any way whatsoever.
I think the hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North (Gavin Newlands) spoke for us all when he said that the Bill is accepted reluctantly. I think we all accept it, but with great reluctance. In the intervention from the hon. Member for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell), he referred to two words that echo throughout Northern Ireland. I have to say, there are two words I have always associated with it in the past—the first is “No” and the second is “Surrender”. I am glad we have parked that and moved on. Now the two words are, “We’re ready!” and I am delighted to hear that.
The hon. Member for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson), whose constituency I have had the enormous pleasure of visiting with him, called for a more interventionist approach. He is absolutely right, and I agree with that. It must be so desperately frustrating that the community groups and organisations he works with are being starved of funds and resources and starved of that accountability and link to legislation. He is doing everything he can. If only we could do more to help him. Sadly, the words that I remember from him are,
“we are where we are.”
That is the tragedy, but we have to get from where we are to somewhere forward.
I had the great honour of shadowing the right hon. Member for Hemel Hempstead (Sir Mike Penning) when he was a Minister. He is one of eight Ministers I have shadowed over the years; I do not know whether the fact that they all sought promotion immediately afterwards has anything to do with me. He spoke from a position of knowledge. He is held in great affection in the House, and we wish him well in everything he does.
My hon. Friend the Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith) talked about torpor, drift and lassitude, which sounds a bit like a firm of solicitors in Swansea. I know exactly what he means—torpor, drift and lassitude are, in some ways, the characteristics that are seen from outside.
The hon. Member for Chelmsford (Vicky Ford) spoke from an Omagh background. I welcome her to our regular sessions here on this subject. We are always looking for new input. Her comments were very emotionally grounded, and we all respected them.
The hon. Member for Belfast South (Emma Little Pengelly), in a typically excellent and elegant speech, referred to the democratic deficit. She also talked about an unaccountable civil service. I am not entirely sure that the civil service is unaccountable. I think it does operate in daylight, and there is transparency. The main point she made—this is one thing that none of us must ever forget from this afternoon’s deliberations—was about the implementation of the Hart report. We simply cannot allow the Hart inquiry report to lie on the table. It is too important. She spoke with such passion that I challenge anyone not to bend their every sinew to try to achieve the implementation of that report.
I have to say that I have never heard the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) speak faster. I have a terrible feeling that a new category in the Olympics has recently been introduced—speed talking. I am very fond of the hon. Gentleman, and did he not quite rightly say that this is about bread and butter? This is indeed about bread and butter.
I think the hon. Member for South Antrim (Paul Girvan) spoke for all of us when he said—let this be the coda of this debate—that we do not want to be going back. We do not want to go back, we will not go back, we cannot go back: Northern Ireland deserves better. What we do this afternoon is not going to resolve the problem, but it will be a small step on the way and will allow some element of normality. Above all, however, we must never, ever go back.
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Shailesh Vara)
May I start on a rather sad note? I extend my condolences and sympathies to Lord Caine, who is known affectionately to all of us as Jonathan Caine. Jonathan is a friend of mine and I have known him for many years. I think all of us in the House would agree that, as far as Northern Ireland issues are concerned, Jonathan is the fount of all knowledge and the one we go to because he knows all the answers. At this difficult time, we extend our sympathies to him and his family.
The intention of the Bill is to create a time-bound period for intensive efforts to restart political dialogue, which might enable the Northern Ireland political parties to form an Executive at any time, as well as to support essential decision making during that period and to ensure that key public appointments can be made until an Executive are in place.
Bob Stewart
The Secretary of State mentioned that she was going to get the parties together. Have Ministers seen one small glimmer of hope that Sinn Féin will actually come to the table and start helping everyone to govern in Northern Ireland?
Mr Vara
There have been occasions when Sinn Féin representatives have turned up at meetings. I very much hope that my hon. Friend will take it on board that the last time we had direct rule it was for five years, and the time before that it was for 25 years. We owe it to ourselves, but more importantly to the people of Northern Ireland, that no stone is left unturned. We are bringing in this Bill to ensure that we can have some space and time during which to get those talks up and running again to try to get the Assembly functioning for the benefit of the people of Northern Ireland.
We have heard from a number of speakers, and I wish to thank all of them. If at all possible given the time constraint, I wish to make brief comments about all the speeches. The shadow Secretary of State, the hon. Member for Rochdale (Tony Lloyd), made a very thoughtful speech. May I say that we very much welcome his broad support for the measures we are introducing? He was critical of the time periods, but I would simply say that we must have the time periods we feel are necessary to try to get the flexibility we may need if the talks reach a particular stage. As I say, it is so important that we get a functioning Assembly. He also mentioned the case of Sarah Ewart. He will understand that there is a long-standing convention in the House that it is inappropriate to make comments about ongoing cases, and I hope he will take that on board.
My hon. Friend the Member for Amber Valley (Nigel Mills) raised concerns about the guidance given to the Northern Ireland civil service. I say to him and to others that we very much welcome comments from people—especially those, like him, who are on the Select Committee, but also others—who wish to make a contribution.
The hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North (Gavin Newlands) urged the Secretary of State to work night and day to try to get the Assembly up and running. I can assure him that that is precisely what she has been doing since the day she became Secretary of State, and I can also assure him that she will continue to do that. We welcome the support that he and his party are giving to this measure.
The Chairman of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison), gave a very detailed speech, rightly highlighting the lack of decisions in Northern Ireland in the absence of Ministers and the impact that that is having on the ordinary citizen. That is why it is so important that we pass this Bill to allow the facility to try to get the Assembly up and running. Again, he made reference to the guidance given to the Northern Ireland civil service, and I say the same to him that I said to my hon. Friend the Member for Amber Valley that we would welcome any comments that he may have.
The hon. Member for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson) gave a learned speech in which he praised, quite rightly, the civil service in Northern Ireland. May I add my praise to the wonderful work of David Sterling and his team—all the permanent secretaries and the thousands of civils servants who have worked to keep Northern Ireland going for the past 20 or so months? He rightly pointed out the transparency of decisions, and will have noted that that is provided for, which is important. He specifically asked about ongoing legislation in this Chamber. I can confirm to him that this Government will continue to take steps to introduce and extend legislation to Northern Ireland following careful consideration on a case-by-case basis. We have done so to date, balancing the public interest need with our respect of the devolution settlement and fully restoring the devolved institutions in Northern Ireland.
The speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Hemel Hempstead (Sir Mike Penning) clearly reflected his experience of Northern Ireland. He spoke of the need for determination to get the Assembly up and running again. The hon. Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith) gave a characteristically feisty speech. I have to say that, although there have been various comments and reservations about the Bill, I was somewhat disappointed that he could not bring himself to give broad support for what we are doing, but instead concentrated his entire speech on being critical. That is matter of regret for the whole House when we seek to get the best for the people of Northern Ireland.
My hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Vicky Ford) gave a passionate speech full of feeling. She spoke about the importance of the Good Friday agreement. I agree with her entirely on that importance, and on the fact that we wish we were not in this place right now and that we were not having to pass this legislation, but, as has already been said, we are where we are.
The hon. Member for Belfast South (Emma Little Pengelly) also made the point that this is not where we want to be, but we are here and therefore it is necessary to get this Bill through, and it is good to have the broad support of the House. She spoke of the need for ministerial decisions. We recognise that there should be ministerial decisions, as those decisions are vital to the people of Northern Ireland. That is why this Bill allows us the opportunity to try to get the parties to think again around that table and to get the Assembly running.
The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) gave a detailed speech. Again, I note his concerns and reservations, but, broadly, he agreed with the spirit of this Bill and that is welcome. The hon. Member for South Antrim (Paul Girvan) rightly spoke about the issues that really are for a devolved Assembly to take. That is why, as I have said, it is important that the whole House is united in trying to get the parties to make sure that the Assembly is functioning.
The UK Government would have very much preferred it if the parties had reached an accommodation and formed an Executive by now. In the absence of such a development, action must be taken. This is to ensure that we can have the protection of the delivery of public services by giving the Northern Ireland civil service certainty to take decisions in the absence of an Executive and also to keep key bodies and offices functioning properly by ensuring that appointments can be made to them.
This really is an important Bill, and we introduce it with reluctance, but we are doing so with the best of intent to get the best for the people of Northern Ireland. I therefore urge that this Bill be read a Second time.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill accordingly read a Second time.
Peter Dowd (Bootle) (Lab)
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. During Prime Minister’s questions, the Prime Minister asserted that the respected Oxford economist and professor, Simon Wren-Lewis, said, in reference to Labour’s manifesto,
“the numbers did not add up”.
However, Professor Wren-Lewis disputes the accuracy of those remarks. He issued the following comments this afternoon, and I would like to be clear that these are the professor’s words, not mine:
“Apparently the Prime Minister quoted me saying about Labour’s 2017 manifesto ‘the numbers did not add up’ In fact I said ‘Let us suppose the IFS was correct’ and examined consequences. I have never taken a view on whether they did/didn’t add up. If that is what she said, she”—
he goes on to use a word that I am unable to use, regarding the incongruous relationship between the Prime Minister’s comments and the truth. I just repeat that those are the professor’s words, not mine.
Would it be appropriate for the Prime Minister to come back to this House to correct the record and apologise to the renowned professor in question? May I seek your guidance, Madam Deputy Speaker, on the best course of action?
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his point of order. As he knows, and as Mr Speaker always says when dealing with such points of order, what Ministers say at the Dispatch Box is not a matter for the Chair. I am quite sure that whatever the Prime Minister said today, she said in good faith, but the hon. Gentleman wishes to bring another version of that to the attention of the House, the Prime Minister and her Ministers. By raising this point of order, he has succeeded in doing that. As for when the Prime Minister will come back to the House, I am quite sure that, in the normal course of events, she will be back here soon—certainly by next Wednesday, when of course the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues will have the opportunity to ask her about this directly, and I am sure that he will take that opportunity.
Simon Hoare (North Dorset) (Con)
Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. During Prime Minister’s questions today, the Leader of the Opposition asserted that the number of those on zero-hours contracts was going up. In actual fact, the figure is going down. Is there an opportunity to draw that fact to the attention of the House?
Madam Deputy Speaker
First of all, that was not further to the point of order. Just as the Chair has no responsibility or control over what Ministers say in the House, so they have no responsibility or control over what the Leader of the Opposition says in the House. I say the same to the hon. Gentleman as I said earlier: facts are being disputed, and I am quite sure that he will question the Leader of the Opposition closely the next time he has the opportunity to do so.
Vicky Ford (Chelmsford) (Con)
Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I, too, raise the point that the Leader of the Opposition claimed today that record numbers of people were on zero-hours contracts. That is false according to the House of Commons Library, which makes it very clear that the number has dropped from 903,000 to 780,000. How does one clarify the matter, in order to ensure that the Library remains a trusted source of data?
Madam Deputy Speaker
The hon. Lady makes a very important point, because we all rely on the Library to give us balanced—
Madam Deputy Speaker
Do not interrupt me. We rely on the Library to give us balanced and entirely impartial information, but once again, once a Member of this House has information in his or her hand, the way that they present it, and the arguments that they make with it, is a matter for them. The hon. Lady asked how she can draw this matter to the attention of the world in general; she has just done so most effectively.
Would anyone else like to continue Prime Minister’s questions? We have a very important Bill in front of us, and I do not wish to take any further time out of the limited amount left for it.
Northern Ireland (Executive Formation and Exercise of Functions) Bill
Wednesday 24th October 2018
(6 years, 1 month ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Northern Ireland (Executive Formation and Exercise of Functions) Act 2018 Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: Manuscript Amendment to the Business of the House Motion (PDF) - (24 Oct 2018)
19:03 - The House divided: - Ayes: 207 / Noes: 117 - Question accordingly agreed to.
19:18 - The House divided: - Ayes: 344 / Noes: 26 - Question accordingly agreed to.
Nigel Mills
I beg to move amendment 15, page 1, line 16, at end insert—
‘(4A) If the period mentioned in section 16(A)(3) of the Northern Ireland Act 1998, as modified by subsection (1), ends without the Ministerial offices having been filled section 32 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 has effect as if for subsection (3) there were substituted—
(3) The Secretary of State shall within 7 calendar days of the end of the period mentioned in in section 16(A)(3) set a date for the poll for the election of the next Northern Ireland Assembly. The date set shall be no later than 3 calendar months after the end of the period mentioned in section 16(A)(3).’
This amendment would require elections in Northern Ireland to be called if Ministerial offices are not filled by 26 March 2019.
The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dame Eleanor Laing)
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Clause stand part.
Amendment 1, in clause 2, page 2, line 20, leave out paragraph (b).
This amendment would prevent the Secretary of State from extending the deadline for appointment of Northern Ireland Ministers without the approval of Parliament.
Clause 2 stand part.
Amendment 22, in clause 3, page 3, line 2, at end insert—
‘(1A) In the absence of Northern Ireland Ministers, senior officers of Northern Ireland departments, giving due regard to advice from the Northern Ireland Commissioner for Victims and Survivors, shall prepare a scheme to provide a pension to those who are regarded as seriously-injured arising from an incident associated from the conflict in Northern Ireland.’
This amendment would in the absence of Ministers create a duty for a scheme to be created to provide financial support for those people who have suffered life-limiting injuries and impairment due to incidents related to the Northern Ireland conflict.
Amendment 21, page 3, line 5, at end insert
‘and must also make a formal statement before each House of Parliament following the publication of such guidance.’
This amendment would require the Secretary of State to make a statement to Parliament on any guidance issued to Northern Ireland Departments on the exercise of their functions in the absence of Northern Ireland Ministers.
Amendment 2, page 3, line 7, at end insert—
‘(3A) The guidance must direct departments to take action on the following areas—
(a) implementing the recommendations of the Historical Institutional Abuse Inquiry (the Hart Report),
(b) instigating any research, consultations or planning required for post-Brexit policy,
(c) designing and implementing devolved post-Brexit functions in relation to Northern Ireland fishing and agriculture that would normally fall to the Northern Ireland Executive,
(d) taking decisions on infrastructure planning and projects that will benefit Northern Ireland.’
This amendment highlights four key areas where guidance must be issued.
Amendment 17, page 3, line 7, at end insert
‘which must include guidance to meet the requirements of section (Guidance on exercise of departmental functions: credit unions).’
This amendment is linked to NC4 with the intention of requiring Northern Ireland Departments, in the continued absence of Northern Ireland Ministers, to promote credit unions in Northern Ireland.
Amendment 18, page 3, line 7, at end insert
‘which must include guidance to meet the requirements of section (Guidance on exercise of departmental functions: energy co-operatives).’
This amendment is linked to NC5 with the intention of requiring Northern Ireland Departments, in the continued absence of Northern Ireland Ministers, to promote energy co-operatives in Northern Ireland.
Amendment 19, page 3, line 7, at end insert
‘which must include guidance to meet the requirements of section (Guidance on exercise of departmental functions: housing co-operatives).’
This amendment is linked to NC6 with the intention of requiring the Northern Ireland Department for Communities, in the continued absence of Northern Ireland Ministers, to promote housing co-operatives in Northern Ireland.
Amendment 3, page 3, line 34, after ‘Assembly’ insert ‘and Members of Parliament’.
This amendment would require the Secretary of State to have regard to representations from MPs as well as MLAs before publishing guidance.
Amendment 4, page 3, line 34, at end insert—
‘(9A) If the Secretary of State wishes to revise or amend the guidance, they must write to the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee at least 30 sitting days before the revised guidance is issued to seek its views on the proposed changes.’
This amendment would require the Secretary of State to consult the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee before changing the guidance.
Amendment 5, page 3, line 38, at end insert—
‘“Northern Ireland Affairs Committee” means the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee of the House of Commons and—
(a) if the name of that Committee is changed, is to be treated as a reference to that Committee by its new name, and
(b) if the functions of that Committee (or substantially corresponding functions) become functions of a different Committee of the House of Commons, is to be treated as a reference to the Committee by which those functions are exercisable.’
This amendment defines the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee of the House of Commons for the purpose of Clause 3.
Clause 3 stand part.
Government amendment 23.
Amendment 6, in clause 4, page 4, line 26, at end insert
‘, publish the advice received and write to the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee to notify the Committee of the appointment decision prior to the appointment being made.’
This amendment requires the relevant Minister of the Crown to notify the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee of the House of Commons before exercising an appointment function in relation to a specified office.
Amendment 16, page 4, line 26, at end insert—
‘(5A) Before exercising an appointment function in reliance on subsection (1) in relation to a role with an annual salary of £100,000 or more the relevant Minister of the Crown must refer their recommendation for the appointment to the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee of the House of Commons for a pre-appointment scrutiny hearing.
(5B) The Minister of the Crown may not proceed with the appointment referred to in subsection (5A) for a period of 30 calendar days from the date of referral to the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee of the House of Commons.
(5C) Any reference in this Act to the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee of the House of Commons—
(a) if the name of that Committee is changed, is to be treated as a reference to that Committee by its new name, and
(b) if the functions of that Committee (or substantially corresponding functions) become functions of a different Committee of the House of Commons, is to be treated as a reference to the Committee by which those functions are exercisable.
(5D) Any question arising under sub-paragraph (5C) is to be determined by the Speaker of the House of Commons.’
This amendment would require the more highly-paid public appointments to be subject to scrutiny by the Northern Ireland Affairs Select Committee of the House of Commons.
Clause 4 stand part.
Amendment 7, in clause 5, page 4, line 36, at end insert
‘, publish the advice received and write to the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee to notify the Committee of the appointment decision prior to the appointment being made.’
This amendment requires the relevant Minister of the Crown to notify the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee of the House of Commons before exercising an appointment function which normally require consultation with, or the consent of, Northern Ireland Ministers.
Clause 5 stand part.
Amendment 8, in clause 6, page 5, line 7, at end insert
‘, publish the advice received and write to the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee to notify the Committee of the appointment decision prior to the appointment being made.’
This amendment requires the Secretary of State to notify the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee of the House of Commons before exercising an appointment function which is normally exercisable by Northern Ireland Minsters acting jointly with the Secretary of State.
Clause 6 stand part.
Amendment 9, in clause 7, page 5, line 34, at end insert—
‘“Northern Ireland Affairs Committee” means the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee of the House of Commons and—
(a) if the name of that Committee is changed, is to be treated as a reference to that Committee by its new name, and
(b) if the functions of that Committee (or substantially corresponding functions) become functions of a different Committee of the House of Commons, is to be treated as a reference to the Committee by which those functions are exercisable.’
This amendment defines the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee of the House of Commons for the purposes of Clauses 4 to 6.
Government amendment 24.
Clauses 7 to 10 stand part.
New clause 4—Guidance on exercise of departmental functions: credit unions—
‘(1) The guidance published under section 3(2) must include guidance on credit unions.
(2) Guidance under this section includes, but is not limited to, guidance to —
(a) senior officers of the Department for Communities in the exercise of the functions in relation to—
(i) promoting and protecting the interests of children, older people, people with disabilities, and other socially excluded groups, and
(ii) providing emergency financial assistance; and
(b) senior officers of the Department of the Economy in the exercise of the functions in relation to—
(i) business regulation including consumer affairs services,
(ii) mutuals policy, legislation and operations, and
(iii) the social economy.
(3) Guidance under this section must include the promotion of credit unions in Northern Ireland to combat organised crime, to reduce financial exclusion, to assist the social inclusion of marginalised groups and to promote financial well-being in all parts of Northern Ireland.’
The intention of this new clause is to require Northern Ireland Departments, in the continued absence of Northern Ireland Ministers, to promote credit unions in Northern Ireland.
New clause 5—Guidance on exercise of departmental functions: energy co-operatives—
‘(1) The guidance published under section 3(2) must include guidance on energy co-operatives.
(2) Guidance under this section includes, but is not limited to, guidance to —
(a) senior officers of the Department of the Economy in the exercise of their functions in relation to—
(i) energy policy and legislation;
(ii) sustainable energy, including energy efficiency measures;
(iii) assistance to the gas and electricity industries;
(iv) Renewable Heat Incentive Scheme and associated costs;
(v) the social economy; and
(vi) making certain payments to the Department of Business, Energy and Industry Strategy; and
(b) senior officers of the Department for Infrastructure in the exercise of their functions in relation to energy matters.
(3) Guidance under this section must include the promotion of energy co-operatives in Northern Ireland to combat fuel poverty and to encourage the safe, sustainable, affordable and efficient production and consumption of energy in all parts of Northern Ireland.’
The intention of this new clause is to require Northern Ireland Departments, in the continued absence of Northern Ireland Ministers, to promote energy co-operatives in Northern Ireland.
New clause 6—Guidance on exercise of departmental functions: housing co-operatives—
‘(1) The guidance published under section 3(2) must include guidance on housing co-operatives.
(2) Guidance under this section includes, but is not limited to, guidance to senior officers of the Department for Communities in the exercise of their functions in relation to—
(a) loans for certain home improvement loans;
(b) housing led regeneration;
(c) regulation of the NI Housing Association sector;
(d) urban regeneration including services such as property maintenance and events;
(e) community and voluntary sector;
(f) grants to district councils in support of local services and transferred functions;
(g) built heritage; and
(h) grants and grants-in-aid.
(3) Guidance under this section must include the promotion of housing co-operatives in Northern Ireland to combat poverty, family breakdown and social exclusion and to encourage the provision safe, sustainable, affordable and energy-efficient homes in all parts of Northern Ireland.’
The intention of this new clause is to require the Northern Ireland Department for Communities, in the continued absence of Northern Ireland Ministers, to promote housing co-operatives in Northern Ireland.
New clause 7—Equal rights for people of Northern Ireland (No. 2)—
‘(1) In the absence of Northern Ireland Ministers to address the matters identified by recent, current and future court proceedings in relation to the human rights of the people of Northern Ireland, the Secretary of State must issue guidance to senior officers of all Northern Ireland departments which will specify how to exercise their functions in relation to—
(a) the incompatibility of the human rights of the people of Northern Ireland with the continued enforcement of sections 58 and 59 of the Offences against the Person Act 1861 with the Human Rights Act 1998, and
(b) the incompatibility of the human rights of the people of Northern Ireland with the continued enforcement of section 13(e) of the Matrimonial Causes (Northern Ireland) Order 1978
where they pertain to the provision and management of public services in Northern Ireland.
(2) The Secretary of State shall report guidance under this section on a quarterly basis to the House of Commons and set out her plans to address the impact of the absence of Northern Ireland Ministers on human rights obligations within three months of the day on which this Act is passed.’
This new clause would increase accountability of the Secretary of State and senior officers of Northern Ireland departments for their role in ensuring human rights compliance in Northern Ireland, in the absence of Northern Ireland Ministers, by requiring them to address incompatibilities between legislation applied in Northern Ireland and human rights obligations.
Nigel Mills
May I first apologise for being a little late for the wind-up speeches on Second Reading? I was sorry to miss the speech by the hon. Member for Ealing North (Stephen Pound), the shadow Minister, as his speeches are usually entertaining and informative.
Amendments 15 and 16 are efforts to probe the Government on the future direction of policy in certain areas and perhaps to improve the Bill, but I will not seek to press them to Divisions. Amendment 15 is an attempt to discover the Government’s plan if—heaven forbid—we reach the end of the period for the formation of the Executive and we still do not have one. Effectively, what would happen in law without any further clarification is that we would default back to the present situation—the Secretary of State would have a duty to consider setting an election date. The present interpretation seems to be that she has no duty to call an election for any particular date. The House of Commons and the people of Northern Ireland have been very patient for the past 650 days—that was the count we heard earlier—in not pressing the Government to clarify the meaning of the words on considering the date for an election in the legislation of a decade ago.
We may fairly say that if we manage to get to late August 2019—I cannot calculate the number of days, but I suspect it will be well over 800 days since an election by that point—without a Government being formed, the only solution might well be to have another election and see whether the people of Northern Ireland wished to express a different view from the one they expressed 650 days ago. If we get to that stage, I would argue that an election would be unavoidable unless we really believed that another few days would tip a deal over the line.
I also venture to suggest gently that having clarity in the law about the consequences for the parties if they cannot reach a deal by that point may be of some assistance in the negotiations. It is probably fair to say that the Northern Irish parties are not great respecters of deadlines. Indeed, deadlines in this process seem to come and go without provoking much action. If a deadline were set in law, it would be clear throughout the discussions that an election would be called if the parties could not reach an agreement by the end date of late March, or late August or somewhere in between that the Secretary of State sets.
Actually, whether to call an election would not be a matter for the Secretary of State’s discretion: it would be a matter of law that the election had to be called unless she thought that she could get a new piece of legislation through Parliament to delay or remove that obligation. If a deal were about to be reached and some legislation here were needed to bring it about, I do not think that we would have any problem in agreeing to it. We would all be grateful to do anything we could to bring the Executive back. But a line would be drawn in the sand to make it clear that if the parties do not agree by a certain date, the Secretary of State has no option but to call an election to ask the people their opinion on resolving the situation.
I ask the Government to consider at least clarifying the consequences of the period for Executive formation lapsing without success and the Government’s policy in that regard. Setting out clearly in a way that will not be ignored this time that an election would have to follow might offer some assistance in the negotiations.
My other proposed amendment, amendment 16, concerns the appointment of individuals to certain key bodies in Northern Ireland. Ideally, that would be a decision for the Northern Ireland Executive and the Assembly and there would be some cross-community involvement. It would be a joint decision, effectively. The Bill quite rightly takes the power to make those appointments, but effectively leaves the decision to the Secretary of State without the need for any real consultation with Parliament or the public on those decisions. I accept that we do not need to have that level of parliamentary involvement for every appointment that might be needed, but what I am trying to do through the amendment is ask whether for the most senior and important posts we could in some way have some parliamentary scrutiny of the individual whose appointment is recommended. This is not a novel process. Many Departments allow Select Committees to hold scrutiny hearings for proposed senior appointments, so it would merely replicate that process.
Attempting to get the amendment in order, I suggested that the definition of seniority could come with a salary of £100,000, but I would not be particularly committed to how we define the cut-off. However, if we were to have this process for sensitive appointments, I think that that level of salary would catch a new Chief Constable, if for some reason one was needed, or perhaps the chair of the Office of the Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland.
For those very sensitive and senior posts for which there is cross-party concern about the individual who is appointed, having a parliamentary scrutiny process in which questions could be asked of the individual to discuss any past roles they have had or comments they have made and to seek their views on how they would carry out their burdensome responsibilities would give both Parliament and the people of Northern Ireland some comfort that the right person had been found and that they would discharge those responsibilities in a responsible manner.
Even if the Secretary of State is unwilling to accept what I have proposed, I urge her to give serious consideration to whether it would help those individuals to have the full confidence of Parliament and the trust of the public in discharging their roles if she allowed some public scrutiny and accountability in the process of appointing them.
Gavin Robinson
Does the hon. Gentleman realise that that is not what would happen if there were a functioning devolved Assembly and that putting some of those positions through that political prism brings some difficulties with it in the Northern Ireland context? If an appointment were rightly made to the Policing Board, it would be for the board to assess and judge any individual going for the Chief Constable role. With the police ombudsman, there is no public scrutiny role like that which we have seen through the process for US Supreme Court judges available at the moment. That role does not exist at the moment; it did not exist when the Assembly sat, so is it really the road we should go down on this interim basis?
Nigel Mills
I said that I was not necessarily fixed on how we define the roles, but we are not in a normal situation. We do not have the Executive or the Assembly to make those appointments; what we will end up with is a Secretary of State over here, with no accountability and no cross-community input, simply making that decision. I was suggesting that this would be a way to provide at least some scrutiny and accountability for these important appointments. The Bill to which we have just given a Second Reading actually specifies that the Secretary of State can effectively make those appointments herself. I accept that we cannot replicate every process that the Executive would have followed, but I am attempting at least to find some way to improve the situation over that which we have in the Bill.
Perhaps I can make a few remarks on the amendments tabled by the Chair of the Select Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison). It seems a bit discourteous to talk about his amendments before he has had a chance to discuss them, but this is my only chance so I guess I will do it anyway. Amendment 2 suggests some items that could be included in the Secretary of State’s guidance to the civil servants on which we really ought to see them take some action. As I said on Second Reading, ideally what we would get from this process would be some decisions that could not be taken before now because there has been no ministerial direction.
In terms not only of the items that my hon. Friend has suggested in amendment 2 in relation to the Hart report, which we have discussed at some length, but of all the various Brexit-related issues, we need as a House to be assured that in the event that any important decisions need to be taken as a consequence of wherever Brexit goes over the next few months, there is a process in place whereby decisions can be taken for Northern Ireland.
Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op)
I shall speak to new clause 7, which is about equal rights in Northern Ireland. I hope that Members across the House who have already supported the new clause will recognise that it is an incredibly reasonable request to put to the Secretary of State, about an incredibly important issue for the House, and indeed for many people in Northern Ireland.
I do not intend to speak for long, because many others wish to get in. I simply want to set out three important points about this reasonable new clause—first, how it respects devolution; secondly, why it addresses issues that cannot simply be left any longer; and thirdly, how we believe it has relevancy to this House and the obligations of Members of this House as part of the Good Friday agreement.
The new clause requests the Secretary of State’s acts to be held to account because of what the Bill does—it recognises that since March 2017, we have not had an Assembly in Northern Ireland. [Interruption.] January 2017; I apologise to the Secretary of State. It has been too long for residents of Northern Ireland not to have a functioning Government, and it has an impact on their lives. The Bill recognises that resolving the dysfunctions behind that is far ahead of us at the moment, and so gives powers to the Secretary of State and to the civil servants to exercise the functions of Government. [Interruption.] It does give power to the Secretary of State because it gives her guidance powers; I believe those are quite powerful, and the new clause speaks to those powers.
For avoidance of doubt, the new clause would not create a new law in Northern Ireland, but it would recognise that there are thousands of people in Northern Ireland whose lives, right now, are affected by two key human rights issues; and they are indeed human rights issues, because they are issues on which our courts are currently discussing, ruling and indeed appealing. They refer in particular to a person’s right to marry who they love, and also to the right of women to have bodily autonomy—to make the choice, if they so wish, not to continue with an unwanted pregnancy. Both of these have been subject to court action, because we recognise that in Northern Ireland they have different rules.
Let us talk about the consequences of those rules. When it comes to abortion, we know that right now in Northern Ireland, if you are raped, and you become pregnant as a result of that attack, and you seek a termination, you could face a longer prison sentence than your attacker. We know too that gay couples in Northern Ireland, when they step off the plane, no longer have their relationship respected in the way that any of us would wish our relationship to be respected. They do not have equal marriage in 2018.
Both of these sets of circumstances come about as a direct result of legislation that was written in this place. First and foremost, sections 58 and 59 of the Offences Against the Person Act 1861, and also, because of the Matrimonial Causes (Northern Ireland) Order 1978. So there is a relevancy for us in this House, because legislation written here is having a direct impact on the human rights of people in Northern Ireland today.
Layla Moran
Can the hon. Lady confirm something that Northern Ireland Amnesty told me, which is that, yes, powers are theoretically devolved to Northern Ireland, but there is no piece of human rights legislation that has been passed at Stormont; and actually, all changes to human rights law in Northern Ireland have been passed in this place?
Stella Creasy
I know that the hon. Lady also feels strongly about this issue. If I may, however, I shall now deal with—in particular—the human rights obligations that I believe we have in this place as a direct result of the Good Friday agreement.
There is a theoretical argument about what those pieces of legislation mean, and there is the human impact of what they mean for people in Northern Ireland.
Stella Creasy
I will shortly, but I feel that the Committee wants to hear the figures that I am about to give.
A year and a half ago, the House voted to allow women from Northern Ireland to come to England and Wales and have abortions on the NHS. We now know that 28 women a week travel to this country for that very purpose. We also know that our own Supreme Court says that it is a cruel and degrading treatment of our own citizens to require them to travel. Many cannot travel. Many find that journey lonely, frightening and difficult, at the very time when they are at their most vulnerable. We also know that a year ago, 84 couples in Northern Ireland had to have civil partnerships because they could not have the basic equality of recognition before the law of their relationship as a marriage. That is the very human impact of those ancient pieces of legislation that we crafted in this place.
I will now happily give way to the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon), because I want to hear from her.
Lady Hermon
I am very grateful to the hon. Lady. She will be well aware of the Supreme Court ruling in, I think, June this year which established—the majority of the judges made it quite clear—that the existing abortion legislation in Northern Ireland was “deeply unsatisfactory” in relation to fatal foetal abnormality and sexual crime. The law in Northern Ireland will have to change. That was a ruling in the Supreme Court, our highest court in the United Kingdom. The hon. Lady made clear at the beginning of her speech that her new clause would not change the law in Northern Ireland, so if it is passed this evening, or even put to a vote, what exactly will be the consequence?
Stella Creasy
The hon. Lady has raised an important point. That court judgment in June 2018 held us all to account for what we were doing about human rights. It was simply because the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission was not a direct victim of that policy that the policy could not be enacted. We learnt today that Sarah Ewart, an incredibly brave woman, is continuing the court process, because there is no other form of redress and remedy at present.
As the Government have previously said, these are matters on which the Assembly, were it to be functioning, should be able to act; but, as we said at the start, the Bill constitutes a recognition that the Assembly is not functioning, and is unlikely to be functioning soon. What, then—this is the human question—do women like Sarah Ewart do? What, then, do people who love each other do when their politicians fail them? What do the public do? The new clause asks that question in a way that none of us can ignore. It asks the Secretary of State to take on the responsibility of reporting on what she will do.
Stella Creasy
I will happily give way, but I do want to make some progress, because I know that other Members want to speak.
Simon Hoare
Surely, in those circumstances, one just changes the politicians through the ballot box.
Stella Creasy
With respect, I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman has read the legislation on which we are voting today, because it constitutes a recognition that there will not be an election in Northern Ireland any time soon to make that possible. So I repeat my question to him: what do the women do who need that help now, who deserve that respect and equality when it comes to control over their own bodies, and who might be in that dreadful position that involves a fatal foetal abnormality? What do they do now?
What those women do now is look to this place to be able to assist them. They look to the Secretary of State, and to the piece of legislation that she is creating, and they can look to the new clause to hear the call from this place that we will not ignore them. We will hold ourselves to account, and will hold Secretaries of State to account, for the incompatibility in human rights that the continued existence of those two pieces of legislation represents in their lives. That is what this incredibly reasonable new clause does. It does not create a new law, but it does not shy away from recognising the impact of those existing laws either. In that sense, it is entirely within the spirit of the Good Friday agreement.
Twenty years ago, our predecessors in this House, alongside their colleagues from the Irish Government, swore to uphold the human rights of the Northern Irish communities. They swore in the Good Friday agreement to make sure that there was an equivalency of rights. Every single month that passes, that promise comes into stark relief, because when we look at the Republic where same-sex marriage is legal and look at that historic referendum this year when abortion became legal in the Republic, we can see that that request not to have different rights is becoming tested.
The Good Friday agreement also required this House and UK politicians to act alongside their Irish counterparts, and that is what this new clause can do, while respecting our shared desire to see the Assembly up and running. So it is a very simple amendment, and I am sorry that it has come to this point and the Secretary of State does not feel able to accept it, and I am proud that it has cross-party support, because that respects and recognises that upholding human rights cannot be something we simply talk about doing abroad but do not recognise on our own doorstep.
I also think there has to be some honesty here. There are some Members of this House who do not believe that women anywhere should have bodily autonomy; there are some Members of this House who do not believe we should be able to marry the person we love. But I make a simple plea to those people: “Be honest with the people of Northern Ireland that your objection is that, and do not use devolution as a decoy for a denial of their human rights.”
Layla Moran
I say this to be helpful to others in the House. I went to Belfast recently—to Stormont—and I had not appreciated that same-sex marriage has majority support among MLAs and a huge amount of support in terms of public opinion. The reason why it did not pass is because there is a thing called the petition of concern which essentially acts as a veto, so to say that there is not support and the people of Northern Ireland should just change their politicians does not work in this case; it has to be us who take that leap for them.
Stella Creasy
I thank the hon. Lady for that intervention. Sadly, on both issues opinion polls show us that the politicians in Northern Ireland are behind the public consistently; indeed, they are behind their own supporters when it comes to both issues. [Interruption.] The right hon. Member for South Holland and The Deepings (Mr Hayes) is chuntering from a sedentary position; I understand that he has philosophical objections on some of the issues in this debate, but I hope he will have respect for the people of Northern Ireland and therefore agree that the case should be heard as to why the Secretary of State should be asked to protect their human rights and to be held to account for what is happening.
Mr Hayes
That means I will not have to chunter from a sedentary position, so I am grateful to the hon. Lady. Just to be clear about public opinion in Northern Ireland, the latest polling, which was authoritative—it was not a rogue poll—shows that the overwhelming majority of Northern Irish women favour the status quo, and interestingly that was broken down by age and younger Northern Irish women are no more in favour of changing to the position the hon. Lady wants than older ladies.
Stella Creasy
I am fascinated by the poll the right hon. Gentleman cites. Let me give him the direct data from the Amnesty International poll taken this year, which says that 65% of people in Northern Ireland think abortion should be decriminalised and 66% think Westminster should act in the absence of the Assembly. Let me also cite for him the Sky News poll of 2018 that shows that 76% of people in Northern Ireland support equal marriage. I say to him gently again that I understand that he has philosophical objections on some of these issues, whether from religious or moral conscience, and I respect that, but it is not enough to say this is about devolution on that basis. He needs to be honest with this House that his objection is about conscience, because there is not a devolution objection to this new clause. The new clause respects devolution, but it also asks us to respect human rights.
Ten years ago we had the opportunity to change things for women in Northern Ireland and that did not happen, and as a result we know from studies that 10,000 women have either had to travel to England to have an abortion or have taken pills bought online. If we reject this new clause, are we really trying to say that 10 MPs matter more than those 10,000 women whose lives have in the last 10 years been affected by our failure to act?
Anna Soubry
Will the hon. Lady also make it very clear that the rather barbaric and antiquated laws that exist in Northern Ireland are not even effective, because all they mean is that, as she said, about 28 women every week have to come over to England and Wales? So the laws are not working in any event, and this just makes them even more barbaric because women have to travel to exercise the same rights that my constituents have.
Stella Creasy
I share the passion of the right hon. Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry) on this matter and increasingly on many other things. She is absolutely right. Stopping safe, legal abortion does not stop abortions happening; it just stops safe abortions happening, as we have seen from the women taking pills who have been unable to seek help from their doctors in Northern Ireland. Stopping same-sex marriage does not stop people of the same sex falling in love with each other; it just stops them having the equal respect and dignity that comes from being able to marry who they love and say it proudly. It is a simple right that all of us in this Chamber would want and that all of us seek for our constituents.
However, I recognise that those are matters for the Assembly, and that is why I want to remind Members here that this new clause respects that process because it looks at the legislation before us today and asks who, in the absence of a functioning Assembly, can be the champion of the human rights of the people of Northern Ireland. It asks who can address the incompatibilities that these court proceedings are identifying, and who can ensure that we do not spend another 10, 20 or 30 years hearing the stories of shame, of hurt and of the rights abuses of the people of Northern Ireland, and simply shrugging our shoulders because politicians cannot get their act together to have an Assembly.
Fiona Bruce
I rise to speak against new clause 7 on the basis that it is clearly inappropriate. It goes far beyond the Government’s narrow, specific intention, in framing this emergency Bill, of ensuring that the administrative functions should keep working efficiently in Northern Ireland in the absence of an Executive there. Their intention was not to go further and to influence key devolved policy matters that should be more properly decided by that Executive. The very fact that this is an emergency Bill is a cause of great concern. Many colleagues have said to me that on such important and sensitive issues—
Heidi Allen (South Cambridgeshire) (Con)
It is very kind of my hon. Friend to give way. On the subject of emergency Bills, what could be more of an emergency than the women of Northern Ireland wondering, right here and right now, what on earth they have to put themselves through in order to have the choice to have an abortion without having to travel to England? For me, that is a pretty big emergency, too.
Fiona Bruce
I absolutely agree that this is an issue that requires the greatest of care and that needs to be addressed with considerable compassion. It therefore deserves more time to be considered by the Members of this House than it has been given in this emergency debate. That is the point that I wanted to make. The proposer of the new clause might say that it does not interfere with devolution, but it clearly has the potential to undermine devolution, touching as it does on the key devolved issues of abortion and marriage.
Jim Shannon
Not only does the new clause go against the will of a great many of us in this House, but it also goes against the will of 60% of the people of Northern Ireland—women who say that they do not want any change. That is what the people of Northern Ireland are saying, so why should this House make it any different?
Fiona Bruce
The hon. Gentleman makes a pertinent point, which I shall refer to further.
I think the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) said that the powers of guidance that the Bill gives to the Secretary of State are powerful. Indeed, I believe that they are; the guidance given to the Secretary of State is far reaching. The guidance cannot and should not change the law, but it could well encourage officials and citizens to believe that it does, and it may well change behaviour. I therefore exhort the Secretary of State to ensure that if new clause 7 is passed—I will certainly vote against it—none of the guidance she provides in any way encourages officials to effect any policy changes. Indeed, I seek her reassurance today that she will specifically guard against that happening.
Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con)
My hon. Friend appears to be arguing for the continuation of a human rights border down the Irish sea.
Fiona Bruce
What I am arguing—reluctantly, I need to repeat many of the points I made in the Chamber yesterday—is that this key issue does merit reconsideration, but reconsideration in the right legislative chamber, namely the Northern Ireland Assembly. Elected officials there should be making such decisions while accountable to the people they represent.
Huw Merriman (Bexhill and Battle) (Con)
My hon. Friend is being generous in giving way. The recent Supreme Court decision requested that lawmakers take action where our law is incompatible with treaties that involve requirements on the UK Parliament. Even if it was just a matter for Northern Ireland, it has been almost two years since democracy has been in action there, so it is surely for this House to take note of such things.
Fiona Bruce
I am happy to address such points. I accept that several justices set out their thoughts on abortion legislation in Northern Ireland in a narrow set of circumstances in the Supreme Court decision earlier this year. However, those views cannot be extrapolated into a case for arguing that human rights are being curtailed in every circumstance in Northern Ireland. We must be clear that the Supreme Court did not make a binding declaration of the incompatibility of Northern Ireland abortion law with human rights. New clause 7 should not use that declaration to justify this proposal.
Fiona Bruce
No. I have taken several interventions, and I will, if I may, proceed.
New clause 7 goes much further even than the non-binding comments made by the judges in the Supreme Court case—a case of serious foetal abnormality. As I say, I am mindful of what a difficult situation that is and fully agree that it merits further attention for the women who may be affected by it, but that must happen in the right legislative chamber.
Fiona Bruce
No, I will continue, if I may.
New clause 7, which refers to the decriminalisation of sections 58 and 59 of the Offences Against the Person Act 1861, goes much further than even the obiter dicta statements of the Supreme Court judges. It goes much further than referring just to foetal abnormality and seeks much broader changes than the narrow circumstances to which the judges referred, which is a further reason why it should be opposed.
Fiona Bruce
I have said no, and I am going to continue. I have taken many interventions, and many others want to speak.
Even in situations where there is a declaration of incompatibility, the Human Rights Act 1998 is clear that legislatures are not required to change the law. That is for legislators to decide, and in this case that means the Northern Ireland Executive. It has also been argued that the Government should change the law because of wider international human rights obligations that the UK has signed up to—specifically recommendations from a February 2018 report by a UN Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination Against Women—CEDAW. Professor Mark Hill QC has written a long opinion on the CEDAW report, and he argues cogently that there is no requirement to act on the basis of the report because there is no right to abortion under the relevant convention and because the committee does not have the power to stipulate that the UK should make any resolutions.
Members are being asked to support new clause 7 on the basis of pressing human rights concerns, but those concerns rest principally on a failure properly to understand what a declaration of incompatibility means. Such a declaration carries no imperative to change the law, especially when the subject is within the margin of appreciation, as is the case with abortion.
Baroness Hale acknowledged at paragraph 39 of the Supreme Court’s Northern Ireland abortion law judgment in June that the democratically expressed will of the people is important, and we must not forget the key vote by the Northern Ireland Assembly in 2016 not to change abortion law.
My right hon. Friend the Member for South Holland and The Deepings (Mr Hayes) mentioned some statistics, and so did the hon. Member for Walthamstow. I remind the Committee of a ComRes poll released just last week showing that the following percentages of people say that changes to abortion law should be a decision for the people of Northern Ireland and their elected representatives, not Westminster: 64% of Northern Irish people, 66% of Northern Irish women and 70% of 18 to 34-year-olds in Northern Ireland. We must respect that, we must respect the Assembly’s 2016 decision and we must respect that many people in Northern Ireland do not want to see these changes, and they certainly do not want to see changes resulting from guidelines issued by a Secretary of State in Westminster, with all the implications that could involve.
New clause 7 must be rejected. I absolutely understand that this is a very sensitive topic but, even through a misapprehension or a misunderstanding, for civil servants to be seen as being given the power to influence this policy would be quite wrong. Out of respect for the people of Northern Ireland and their elected representatives, new clause 7 must be voted down.
Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson
I welcome the opportunity to take part in this debate in Committee. Amendment 15, in the name of the hon. Member for Amber Valley (Nigel Mills), would require an election to be held when these special measures come to an end. For our part, the Democratic Unionist party has no fear of an election. We have just had a council by-election in Carrickfergus, which we won comfortably. We are not fearful of putting ourselves before the people.
If the hon. Gentleman were here, I would say that holding an election would not change the reality. If we have dialogue and cannot reach a political agreement, all an election will do is further polarise the community and make it even more difficult to reach a political agreement. [Interruption.] If Labour Members are so interested in elections in Northern Ireland, maybe one of them will explain why the Labour party does not contest elections there.
Labour Members want to change laws in Northern Ireland, and they want to tell the people of Northern Ireland what to do, but they do not have the courage of their convictions to put themselves before the people of Northern Ireland and seek election. A little quiet from that quarter is the order of the day. When they are ready to come before the people of Northern Ireland and put themselves forward, we will listen to the Labour party. With all due respect, at least the Conservative party—
Lyn Brown (West Ham) (Lab)
On a point of order, Dame Rosie. I would be grateful for a more comradely debate, rather than the rant to which we are being subjected. Perhaps we need to take a moment to calm down.
The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dame Rosie Winterton)
I thank the hon. Lady for her point of order, and I remind everybody that moderation in language and in debate is what we would like to see. This is a very important debate, and perhaps we need to take the temperature down a little.
Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson
If we need to moderate debate because I have called on people to put themselves forward and seek a democratic mandate, I stand to be corrected, but the people of my constituency are looking at the Labour party. More than 60% of the people who voted in my constituency voted for my party at the general election. When I hear Labour Members tell me that they speak more for the people I represent than I do, I am entitled to say that they should put themselves forward in Lagan Valley at the next election. Seek a mandate. Take me on. I am more than happy to contest the Labour party in Lagan Valley. Let us see then whether I speak for the people of Lagan Valley or they do.
Lady Hermon
The right hon. Gentleman is referring to a judgment where the majority of the Supreme Court, by four to three, dismissed the case on a technical point to do with the status and powers of the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission. If he reads the judgment carefully, he will find—I will stand corrected if I am not right on this—that a majority of the judges, including Lord Kerr, described the abortion legislation in Northern Ireland in relation to fatal foetal abnormality and sexual crime as “deeply unsatisfactory”. Those are the words that were used. I plead with the right hon. Gentleman’s party to indicate what help and assistance is going to be given to those hundreds of women who feel that they have to leave their own country, Northern Ireland, to seek an abortion. Abortion is not compulsory; it is an option. Women should have the choice in cases of rape, incest and fatal foetal abnormality. Will the hon. Gentleman’s party accept those circumstances for change?
Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson
I respect what the hon. Lady said, but I point out to her that section 4(6) of the Human Rights Act 1998 is clear on the point of incompatibility. It states clearly:
“A declaration under this section (“a declaration of incompatibility”)…does not affect the validity, continuing operation or enforcement of the provision in respect of which it is given”.
That is the human rights law of this country. When the hon. Lady suggested in her intervention earlier that the Supreme Court judgment compelled the Northern Ireland Assembly to change the law, she was incorrect in her assertion. That opinion comes from the Attorney General for Northern Ireland and his respected advice on this subject.
On the question that the hon. Lady posed, in respect of fatal foetal abnormality, when a mother is expecting a child with a potentially life-limiting condition, I too have met Sarah Ewart, as has my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson), who is her Member of Parliament, and I have enormous respect for Sarah. As a result of her initiative, the Northern Ireland Executive commissioned a working group to examine this area of the law in Northern Ireland, and that working group brought forward proposals. Here is the irony: if Sinn Féin allowed Northern Ireland to have a Government, we would by now have addressed this area of the law.
Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson
Because we have a working group that was set up by the Executive and that has brought forward proposals, this area of the law would have been addressed by now.
Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson
With respect to the hon. Member for North Down, the party that is preventing this issue from being addressed in Northern Ireland is not the Democratic Unionist party; it is Sinn Féin who are preventing the Executive from addressing the report of the working group, which has brought forward proposals in respect of mothers who are expectant with a child who may have a life-limiting condition, so let us get our facts straight.
Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson
In respect of the issue relating to sex crime, I agree with the hon. Member for North Down that we need to examine this area of the law in Northern Ireland, but the difficulty is that we cannot do it—not because the Democratic Unionist party is standing in the way of examining these sensitive issues, but because Sinn Féin are preventing the Northern Ireland Assembly and Executive from carrying out their function. That is the political reality of the situation in Northern Ireland.
Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson
In respect of the proposals before us, it is important that we consider carefully what we are doing. If we really are to be true to our commitment to respect the devolution principle—
Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson
The hon. Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston) referred earlier to a border in the Irish sea. Let me address that for a moment.
Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson
It was this House that decided that Northern Ireland should have devolved responsibility for abortion and marriage. It was this House that decided to give to the Northern Ireland Assembly and Executive the power to legislate on these areas of life. That is the reality. The hon. Member for Walthamstow talked about the decisions of this House—
Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson
It was this House that decided that the Northern Ireland Assembly and Executive had the power to legislate on these areas of the law.
Gareth Snell (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab/Co-op)
Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dame Rosie Winterton)
Order. I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman is going to give way, so rather than just shouting at him, I think that we should allow him to continue, because he will be well aware that a lot of other hon. Members want to contribute to the debate.
Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson
I am very much aware of that, Dame Rosie. I have taken some interventions but there is a lot that we need to say and a lot that others want to say, and I respect that.
This issue is important because it is about the principle of devolution. If we truly respect the decisions of this House—which gave the power to the Northern Ireland people, through the Assembly and the Executive, to exercise the right to legislate on these areas of the law —please let us not talk about creating a border in the Irish sea, when we all voted to give Northern Ireland that power. Otherwise, what is the point of devolution? The point of devolution is that the people of Northern Ireland have the right to legislate for laws that affect their lives. It is the same in Scotland and in Wales. That is why we have devolution.
Members of this House say to me, a Member from Northern Ireland, that talking about having different laws in my part of the United Kingdom is somehow about creating a border in the Irish sea; it is not. It is about respecting the principle on which this House agreed—that Northern Ireland has the right to make its own laws in its own legislature as part of this United Kingdom. That is important.
We must respect the devolution principle, not breach it. I understand that this legislation is only about giving civil servants advice and direction; I am not suggesting that it is about changing the law. Nevertheless, we need to be careful because I rather suspect that the hon. Member for Walthamstow does not see this as the end game—not as an end in itself, but as a means to an end. Let us be honest with each other about that. I believe that the hon. Lady sees this measure as a means to an end in changing the law in Northern Ireland. All I am saying—I echo previous comments made today—is that most people in my constituency and in Northern Ireland believe that it is for the Northern Ireland Assembly and Executive to make those laws. My party will therefore vote against new clause 7 because it has the potential to undermine the principle of devolution. I say that without prejudice to the points made by the hon. Member for North Down, which I respect. We are not running away from the issues, court judgments or any of those things. What we are saying is that the proper place to deal with and discuss these matters is in the Northern Ireland Assembly.
In the most recent democratic vote on abortion law of any legislature in the United Kingdom, the Northern Ireland Assembly in 2016—only two years ago—voted by a majority to retain the existing law on abortion in Northern Ireland. Now, I accept that we need to examine the issues. In fact, we have looked at the whole question of life-limiting conditions and we have a working group report that we want to get back to.
Let me return to the core and central point of all this: I listened to the new president of Sinn Féin, Mary Lou McDonald, talking about equal rights, and I pointed out to her in a panel discussion that if the Assembly sat tomorrow and there was a vote on marriage, the Democratic Unionist party would not have enough seats on its own to table a petition of concern. I therefore challenged Sinn Féin that if it believed that this issue is such a pressing one, it should call the Assembly and get the Government up and running. If it believes that this is the priority—if Sinn Féin thinks that health, education, roads and housing should be secondary—it can list it as the first item of business. But it will not call the Assembly and it will not form an Executive. Sinn Féin will not give the people of Northern Ireland, through their elected representatives, the opportunity to address any of these issues.
That is the reality we are dealing with. We can trade arguments back and forward with each other on some of these very sensitive issues, but the reality is that my constituents do not have a Government this evening and are not getting decisions taken that need to be taken because one political party in Northern Ireland is denying not only equal rights but basic rights that impact on the daily lives of my constituents, whether it is their housing rights, their health rights or their education rights. All those rights—human rights—are being impacted. It would be good to hear some hon. Members refer to those human rights that are currently being denied by Sinn Féin, which refuses Northern Ireland the right to have a democratic Government.
Dr Murrison
Rarely do we get such fine, sweeping oratory in a Bill Committee. That is probably one of the few advantages of fast-tracking legislation. I am afraid that I am going to turn the temperature down a couple of notches in speaking to my amendments 1 to 9, which are all far more prosaic than new clause 7. I will certainly not be able to match in any way, shape or form the oratory we have heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce), the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy), and the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson). These are nevertheless, I believe, important amendments to an important Bill. They deal with clauses 2, 3 and 4.
My amendment 1 is, as it were, amendment 20 in the name of the hon. Member for Rochdale (Tony Lloyd)-lite—that is, it does not delete clause 2 but simply, modestly removes a subsection. That subsection deals with the expediency of not seeking the House’s approval to extend the provisions we are discussing in terms of the Executive. I tabled the amendment to explore with the Secretary of State what “expediency” might mean, because we are handing to her a range of quite important powers in unusual circumstances. That suggests to me that the Committee really needs to do its utmost to scrutinise what is going on. It does not seem to me that the word “expediency” should really creep into the lexicography at all. My point in tabling this simple and modest amendment is to probe the Secretary of State on the circumstances in which she would see fit to enact this extension without the prior approval of the House.
Amendment 2 is the guts of what I want to discuss. It really cuts to the chase in terms of the Bill, because it deals with guidance, which is the single most important part of the proposals before us. It seeks, for example, to be more prescriptive in the sort of guidance that I would like the Secretary of State to give to the Northern Ireland civil service. We discussed some of this on Second Reading. I believe that that would be an improvement, having gone through the draft guidance that has been published, of which, presumably, all right hon. and hon. Members who are interested in this matter have got copies from the Library. The amendment goes further and makes it more prescriptive.
The flagship issue is Hart. There is cross-party and cross-community support for the Hart report, and there really can be no excuse for not cracking on and doing this now. I very much hope that in the forthcoming guidance the Secretary of State will enable that process to be advanced. I have cited Hart as No. 1 in my list of things I seek her to be specific on, because it is obviously the No. 1, big ticket issue that people would like to see action on. People out there really cannot understand why action has not been taken.
Sir Mike Penning
I do not understand why Hart has not been done. There was huge courage within the Northern Ireland Health Department when we got medical cannabis for constituents in Northern Ireland when we were getting Billies and Alfies over here. People had the will and they needed the confidence. Is my hon. Friend sure that this legislation will give them the confidence, because clearly they are frightened and something is holding them back? They have done it for medical cannabis, so surely they could do it for Hart.
Dr Murrison
My right hon. Friend makes a very good point, which elegantly exemplifies what I am going on about and brings me neatly on to—
Dr Murrison
Before I move neatly on, I shall give way to the hon. Gentleman.
Owen Smith
I have signed the hon. Gentleman’s excellent amendment, but does he not understand from the legislation and, indeed, the answer we heard from the Secretary of State earlier that, in her view, this does not allow her to enact any of the recommendations made under the Hart review? Is he not deeply disappointed by that?
Dr Murrison
I am not really sure that that is the case. I refer the hon. Gentleman to the guidance, which I am sure he has now read. On the third page, the guidance states that particular weight must be given to any
“serious detriment to the public interest, public health and wellbeing”.
That seems fairly clearcut to me. I think that the Secretary of State will have got the sense of the House today on her being proactive in the guidance that she is able to issue.
Emma Little Pengelly
Some of the concern is that this is actually not that straightforward. The terms of reference that set up the Hart inquiry clearly said that what came after the findings was not a matter for the chair of the inquiry. There are issues and decision points in those recommendations. To use a quick example, Hart recommends legal aid or separate legal representation for each of the people coming forward to a redress board. That has never been agreed. There would be a huge cost and, in my view, a lot of bureaucracy with that approach. There are decision points in the recommendations that, as I understand it in terms of the guidance, could not be made by a civil servant, because there is no consensus at this stage on those matters. That is the complication, and that is why the Secretary of State needs to step in and make those decisions.
Dr Murrison
I do understand that. One point I made on Second Reading was that I was slightly disappointed that the Bill does not advance pretty much any of the recommendations we made in our report on the democratic deficit, published in May. Had it done so, there would be scope now for even more consultation, using formal structures, which may have assisted the implementation to which the hon. Lady rightly refers.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Hemel Hempstead (Sir Mike Penning) mentioned cannabis, which leads me on to healthcare—a matter that is of particular importance to my Committee right now, since we were at the Royal Victoria Hospital on Monday, where we took evidence from a number of service users. It is very clear from the guidance, which cites public interest and public health, that this matter is preying on the mind of Ministers.
It is a crying shame that there is no proper cancer strategy in Northern Ireland right now. There is one published in 2008, so it is out of date. We have a situation where, to pick one condition at random, the outcomes for prostate cancer are far worse in Northern Ireland than in the rest of the country. This is pretty clear. If we do not have a cancer strategy and we believe that a cancer strategy will be of assistance in improving outcomes, of course outcomes will be worse if one is not in place. To get a cancer strategy, we need some form of direction to civil servants to get on with it and, furthermore, to implement it.
Jim Shannon
One thing we have discussed in the Select Committee is the scourge of diabetes. In Northern Ireland, we have the largest percentage of people with diabetes per head of population in the UK. We also have the largest proportion of type 1 child diabetics in the whole United Kingdom, with Scotland coming second. We need a strategy in place for that. We had a strategy before, which covered all the regions of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, but we cannot do that today because we do not have the wherewithal. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that we really need to see some action in the Health Department, to address all chronic diseases, including diabetes and cancer?
Dr Murrison
The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. I do not want to labour the point, but I feel the need to briefly mention the fact that screening for cancer in Northern Ireland is frankly woeful—it is way behind. We cannot have a situation where there is faecal immunochemical testing in the rest of the UK, but it is denied to people in Northern Ireland, and they also cannot get HPV screening for cervical cancer. That is just not acceptable. But for these things to happen, we need some form of direction, however it comes, and that is a matter for Ministers and those who draft measures of the sort we are discussing and, of course, those who deal with the consequentials of the guidance that we are dealing with.
Owen Smith
I make no apology for going back to the Hart inquiry, because there are hundreds of victims of historical sexual abuse in Northern Ireland who will be watching this debate and wondering whether action is likely to be taken by the Government as a result of this legislation. I think that we are still very unclear whether the Secretary of State interprets this legislation, as the hon. Gentleman and I do, as giving leeway to civil servants in Northern Ireland to undertake further action. Through him, may I urge the Secretary of State to intervene at some point before the close of the Committee this evening and clarify whether this will allow action on Hart?
Dr Murrison
The purpose of amendments tends to be to elicit such answers from Ministers, and it will be very interesting to hear from the Secretary of State how she would like to play this, because I am hoping that we will have some encouragement in that respect. Hon. Members have certainly given her every encouragement. I have been struck by how much encouragement to be proactive in the interests of the people of Northern Ireland there has been during this debate. I think that the Committee understands full well that a great deal needs to be done, and it needs to be done fairly quickly on a number of important public policy issues, of which Hart is just one.
The guidance makes a great deal of the public finances and the economy in Northern Ireland. Goodness me, we could debate all day the economy in Northern Ireland and where that needs to go. One thing we have been particularly struck by as a Select Committee is of course farming and growing in Northern Ireland: horticulture is far more important there than in the rest of the United Kingdom. One of the recommendations we are very keen on is that there should be a proper farming strategy in Northern Ireland very soon. At the moment, it is having to compete with the Republic, where, if I am honest, the Government in Dublin have been really quite proactive and have placed farmers and growers north of the border at something of a competitive disadvantage, with or without Brexit.
Things need to be done, and fairly urgently, to improve productivity in Northern Ireland, while recognising the unusual nature of farming in Northern Ireland and recognising that farming in Northern Ireland is not the same as farming in the rest of the United Kingdom. In the main, we are not talking about East Anglian barley barons in Northern Ireland, but about small family farms. That is why the guidance, which I hope will preoccupy the Secretary of State in the weeks and months ahead, should produce a firm statement about what the civil service of Northern Ireland needs to do in relation to producing such a farming strategy. If we have no restoration of the Executive by the end of the year, we should certainly give some attention to that directly.
I will skip the rest of my amendments because they are simply to do with ensuring that there is added scrutiny of these measures and the guidance that flows from them, as well as with the appointment function to be exercised by this House, as cited in clause 4, and in particular—if I may make this suggestion—by my Committee.
Karin Smyth (Bristol South) (Lab)
I would not of course challenge the Chair on the grouping of these amendments—that would be poor—but I would gently say that two hours for the range of amendments before us on a great many subjects is not sufficient. This is not satisfactory, and I hope that the Government will learn that we have a deep interest in the issues across Northern Ireland and will give us more time.
I have worked with the hon. Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison) on a number of health issues in England and Wales, and the points he raised in his amendments about health inequalities across Northern Ireland were well made. I particularly want to highlight amendment 22, especially in relation to pensions, in the name of the hon. Member for Edinburgh West (Christine Jardine). Such a measure is in the gift of the Secretary of State, and we certainly wish to see it progressed.
Most of my comments are going to be about new clause 7, and I will start with same-sex marriage. I was proud to be a co-sponsor of the Bill introduced by my hon. Friend the Member for St Helens North (Conor McGinn), and I was a witness of his speech last March, which was one of the best I have heard in this Chamber. I should say that, although I am pleased to be married, he beautifully encapsulated the equality point when he told us the heartfelt response made by one of the people he was speaking to in south Armagh. The man said that, frankly, gay people had the right
“to be as miserable as the rest of us.”
With respect to the fact that people who love each other cannot build a happy life together as a married couple in Northern Ireland, he asked in that speech:
“Does anyone think that is fair? Does anyone think that is right? Does anyone think that can continue?”—[Official Report, 28 March 2018; Vol. 638, c. 791-792.]
Anna Soubry
When we went to Northern Ireland with Amnesty International, we learned that people cannot be given that information, because giving it is a criminal offence for which a person will be prosecuted, and they will face a lengthy prison sentence. One of the most concerning features of all this is the inability of people to get any form of advice.
Karin Smyth
I am grateful for that intervention. The right hon. Lady is of course right: the issue of advice, guidance and information is subject to some discussion, and that is not helpful in this situation.
Yesterday, my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson) tested the will of the House on this issue after giving a superb and measured speech on a Bill seeking to decriminalise women in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. There was an attempt to divide women by suggesting we could not decriminalise in England and Wales because it would be anti-devolution. Fundamental to the politics of my hon. Friends the Members for Walthamstow and for Kingston upon Hull North, and the majority of women in this House—and in this country—is our belief in the internationalism of women’s rights. Our solidarity with women across the world is important.
Women’s reproductive rights are at the core of that internationalism and solidarity. It seems that the Government share our view. This year, they launched a good flagship programme—I commend some of that work—from the Department for International Development called Work and Opportunities for Women. The objective is access to improved economic opportunities for women through business intervention in supply chains and economic development programmes. It is, after all, a Conservative programme, so its focus is interesting. It is about women’s economic empowerment. That Government policy states that women’s economic opportunities will be improved by, among other things,
“influencing the UK and global agenda on women’s economic empowerment.”
The Government’s supporting literature says:
“Sexual and reproductive health and rights…including the right to decide if and how many children to have, the right to live free from disease and the right to access confidential, high-quality health services which enable women to control their own bodies…are fundamental to women’s economic empowerment.”
It goes on to say that the link between sexual and reproductive health and rights and women’s economic empowerment
“is reflected in DFID’s Economic Development Strategy… 2017…which includes a commitment to increase access to family planning as a vehicle for transforming women’s economic opportunities.”
Those are the Government’s own policies. It goes on to say that the Government support initiatives in this area in the DFID priority countries of Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Burma, the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Ethiopia, Ghana, India, Kenya, Kyrgyzstan, Liberia, Malawi, Mozambique, Nepal, Nigeria, Palestine, Pakistan, Rwanda, Sierra Leone, Somalia, Sudan, South Africa, South Sudan, Tajikistan, Tanzania, Uganda, Yemen, Zimbabwe and Zambia—28 countries. What rank hypocrisy by the UK Government in committing to increase access to family planning across the world but not in our own precious Union for our own people.
I am in no doubt that change is coming. The issue at heart is how much more suffering the Government are willing to inflict on women from Northern Ireland before it is achieved.
Wes Streeting (Ilford North) (Lab)
My hon. Friend has brilliantly exposed the hypocrisy of our country on the international stage. She talks about the impetus for change in these islands. Is it not a complete absurdity—and would not much of the objection to new clause 7 this afternoon be laughable if it were not so serious—that Northern Ireland, especially following the referendum in the Republic of Ireland, will be the only place in Great Britain and Northern Ireland or on the island of Ireland where same-sex couples will not be allowed to get married and women will not be able to seek access to safe and legal abortion? It is time to end that anomaly.
Karin Smyth
I completely agree with my hon. Friend. Today, we have seen Sarah Ewart bravely take on the role of doing something about it.
The Government may kick the can down the road with the Bill, but nothing is standing still. As my hon. Friend said, the changing of its law by the Republic of Ireland will mean that, up to 12 weeks of pregnancy, women can take a train, make a short bus ride or even walk to a service. Yesterday’s vote in this place is important.
I have listened carefully to the speeches today, including from the hon. Member for Belfast South (Emma Little Pengelly). I spent a day in Stormont recently as part of the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly, taking evidence from all sides in the debate, and meeting the Attorney General, the director of medical services and other campaigners. Feelings on this issue are strong. We need to treat the issue with care and establish services respectfully. But we have experience of that. People in Northern have had and still have to manage much greater challenges. The new clause is helpful and respectful and would allow a process to take place. The Government would be well advised to respond as respectfully and to listen to the women who would rather be at home.
Karen Bradley
Before I speak to Government amendments 23 and 24, it is worth taking a moment to remind right hon. and hon. Members of the purpose of the Bill and why we are here today. Many were unable to be here for Second Reading, so I repeat that this is not a Bill that I wanted to introduce. I am doing so because we have to enable public services to continue to be delivered in Northern Ireland. We all want to see politicians in Northern Ireland come together, do the right thing and go back to Stormont to form an Executive. If an Executive were in place, so much that we have debated today would be a matter for its members to discuss and to take the decisions on behalf of the people who elected them. That is what is right for the people of Northern Ireland who have suffered for too long without a Government in Stormont. The time has come for their politicians to do the right thing.
I also repeat my earlier point that the Bill is limited. It will allow decisions to be taken by civil servants who have felt unable to do so since the Buick appeal was heard. We need to make sure that those civil servants can take those decisions, but this is not about their making major policy decisions or becoming lawmakers. This is about civil servants being able to deliver on key infrastructure decisions and other matters relating to the running of public services in Northern Ireland.
I do not want to make life any more difficult than it already is for our dedicated civil servants in the NICS, and being put in a position where they would have to take major policy decisions is something that no civil servant would want. They are incredibly dedicated and they work incredibly hard on behalf of the people of Northern Ireland.
We also need to make sure that there is no reason at all for the politicians in Northern Ireland not to come together, do the right thing and form a Government. I have been heartened by the words I have heard from the Members of the Democratic Unionist party about their determination to see an Executive reformed as soon as possible. I want to work with all the parties and with no impediments in place, which is why the Bill allows the reformation of an Executive without further legislation, to see that happen as soon as possible so that we can deal with these matters and to do so in the right place, in Stormont, where they can be dealt with by the politicians elected in Northern Ireland.
I remind hon. and right hon. Members that this is a time-limited Bill. It is not a permanent Bill and it does not change anything permanently. It allows a short period in which impediments to forming an Executive are removed, in which the framework and conditions for the politicians to come together are put in the best place they can be, and in which decisions about running public services can continue to be made by civil servants in the way that is right for the people of Northern Ireland without their making major policy decisions, because we need the politicians to do that. In considering these amendments, it is important that we all remember the purpose of the Bill—why we are introducing it, why we are doing so in an emergency situation and not through the normal parliamentary procedures, and what the Government’s intention is.
Let me go back to the Government amendments. I appreciate the hard work of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee in scrutinising the Bill so quickly, and I thank it for its report. I am grateful that the Committee acknowledges the potential need for regulations to be made as a matter of urgency in a way that is not possible through the draft affirmative procedure alone. Although my preferred option was to use the negative procedure to enable any such urgent cases to be addressed, I have taken on board the wider concerns expressed by the Committee and accept its recommendation. Amendment 23 therefore provides that additions to the table in clause 4 will be subject to the affirmative procedure. That will mean the draft affirmative procedure, unless the case requires urgent action in which case the made affirmative procedure will be used. I think that this strikes the right balance between scrutiny and the capacity to expedite regulations should it be necessary to do so. Amendment 24 is consequential on amendment 23 and removes a cross-reference that is no longer needed now that regulations under clause 4 are subject to the affirmative procedure.
Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)
I recognise that intervening on a Secretary of State is quite an attractive prospect for many Back Benchers and that as a result there may not be time for me to catch your eye, Dame Rosie, to speak in support of new clauses 4, 5 and 6, which are tabled in my name. Will the Secretary of State therefore be willing to instruct her junior Minister to meet me to discuss the concerns of the Co-operative movement in Northern Ireland? I hope still to get in a brief word or two about those concerns, but if I do not I would like the opportunity to amplify them with the Minister in private.
Karen Bradley
I certainly intend to ensure that there is time for the hon. Gentleman to speak in support of his new clauses, but of course I think it would be a good idea for me or my Minister of State to meet him and representatives of the Co-operative movement. In the Northern Ireland Office, we make a point of meeting all stakeholders and organisations with concerns. I know how difficult it is for civic society and organisations to know where to turn at this time without Ministers in Stormont, and I meet many organisations regularly that feel frustrated that they do not have Ministers to whom they can turn, so of course we are happy to meet. I remind the hon. Gentleman, as I end up reminding many, many organisations, that most of the things that are raised with us are devolved matters, and that we do not have Executive powers. That point was made very clear in the Hughes judgment earlier this year, as I am sure the hon. Gentleman knows.
Owen Smith
Is the Minister saying clearly that she is not anticipating or encouraging civil servants, under the guidance that we are passing here today, to act either to implement the Hart inquiry recommendations or to institute a pension for victims of the troubles?
Karen Bradley
I will come to the specific points that the hon. Gentleman raised, because they are the subject of amendments that have been tabled and I will try to address all those points, but I want to make myself clear. The hon. Gentleman may have missed my comments when I responded to an intervention from the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon). The head of the Northern Ireland civil service has made it clear that he would like to consult on the Hart recommendations and do the work that would be required in any event, with or without Ministers, to prepare for what implementation of those recommendations and other matters might involve, and I have written to thank him for that decision.
Forgive me; what was the second point that the hon. Gentleman raised?
Karen Bradley
I will talk about that specifically, because obviously, although it is another devolved matter, we have spoken to the Victims’ Commissioner about trying to ensure that some progress can be made. I assure the hon. Gentleman that I meet victims of the troubles, I meet victims of sexual abuse, I meet victims of all manner of things, and I meet campaigners for LGBT rights and all sorts of others, and I well understand the desire to get on and take action in this place. However, I very gently say to him—he will know this from his great experience as an adviser, particularly during the period of direct rule—that there is no direct rule-lite. There is no “just intervene a little bit here and a little bit there.” All of that is direct rule, and I do not want to be in direct rule because it is wrong for the people of Northern Ireland. While there is a chance of the parties coming together and doing the right thing in Stormont, that is the best thing for the people of Northern Ireland and I have to give them every opportunity to do that.
Tony Lloyd
May I press the Minister on the question of the victims of terrorism? There is a very strong interpretation that, as a legacy issue, that is the responsibility of the Secretary of State, not of the Stormont Assembly. I think she needs to make it absolutely clear why she will not follow that path, because that would be the quickest way, it would be legal, and it would do something for victims here and now, not in the indefinite future.
Karen Bradley
I appreciate that there is confusion around this matter. I asked for advice very early on in regard to what was reserved, what was devolved, and what had become a matter for this House as a result of the agreement of politicians in Northern Ireland. Let me be clear: many of the interventions that the Government have taken over the years have been as a result of the wishes and the agreement of the parties in Northern Ireland to ask Westminster to take action in certain areas, but victims’ pensions is still a devolved matter. I want to see action in that area, and that is why I have spoken to the Victims’ Commissioner.
Sir Mike Penning
One of the powers of this House and the Government relates to those who are becoming victims—the veterans. If an amendment were tabled in the other place that actually protected our veterans for their service, would the Government oppose that?
Karen Bradley
I know how passionately my right hon. Friend feels about this; and may I tell him that I feel passionately about it too? I want to see justice for our veterans. The veterans and the RUC who served in Northern Ireland were responsible for the fact that the peace process was able to start; it was because of their determination and bravery. I want to make sure that they are treated with the dignity that they should be afforded. I would like to work with my right hon. Friend to ensure that we can deliver that dignity in an appropriate way, but I have to caution him that, as I said earlier, this is a narrow Bill; it is a Bill to enable public services to continue to be run in Northern Ireland because that is necessary for the people of Northern Ireland. I do not think it is the correct vehicle for the kind of action that I know my right hon. Friend wants to see, and on which I want to work with him.
Let me now deal with the amendments tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Amber Valley (Nigel Mills). I am sympathetic to the spirit of amendment 15, but it has technical flaws, and I therefore cannot accept it. First, it would remove an election duty by omitting the original provision that was agreed to in the St Andrews agreement and is part of the Northern Ireland Act 1998. Secondly, I think that the period of seven days is impractical. It could fall within a parliamentary recess, and I do not think that an Order in Council during a recess is exactly what the House would want to see.
Thirdly, the amendment does not allow for flexibility. We do not know what point we will reach. I want the politicians to come together and do the right thing as soon as possible, but I must ensure that there is the necessary flexibility to allow for a final short burst of talks if that is what is needed. I understand exactly why my hon. Friend tabled his amendment, but I think that imposing that degree of inflexibility on me, as Secretary of State, would not help the process of getting the Executive up and running again.
The UK Government respect the principle that Parliament should be able to scrutinise certain public appointments before they are made, especially significant appointments to organisations that hold the Government to account, but I do not think that the consequences of amendment 16 would follow the standard process for either United Kingdom or Northern Ireland appointments. The appointments listed in the Bill would not be subject to pre-appointment scrutiny in the Assembly or the Executive, and I think it would be inappropriate to introduce here a degree of pre-appointment scrutiny that does not exist at Stormont, and would not exist in Northern Ireland if Ministers were in place.
New clause 7 has been the subject of much debate. My respect for the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) and her campaigning on this matter is immense: I know how hard she campaigns and how much she cares about it. Her hon. Friend the Member for St Helens North (Conor McGinn) is another doughty campaigner. I have put on the record, and I continue to believe, that change is needed in Northern Ireland in this regard, and that I support such change. However, I do not think that it should be made through the Bill or the new clause. The point of the Bill is to allow politicians to come together and form an Executive in Northern Ireland. That is where these decisions should be made.
Conor McGinn (St Helens North) (Lab)
The academic Paul Jennings, of Queen Mary University of London, has said that the new clause tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) is
“scrupulous in avoiding issues of devolution and changing the Stormont Westminster relationship. It relates only to the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, a Westminster actor, and compels the office to issue guidance on the issues of abortion and equal marriage to senior officials in Northern Ireland. In doing so, it refrains from interfering with the mandate of ministers in Northern Ireland.”
Karen Bradley
I understand all the points that the hon. Gentleman has made, but the new clause is flawed. It is flawed because the Bill does not allow the law to be changed. It does not make civil servants lawmakers. It asks them to work within the confines of the law as it exists today. We do not want to be in a position in which civil servants are changing the law. I am not, as Secretary of State, changing the law on any devolved matter in Northern Ireland; I am giving guidance to the civil servants to allow them to make decisions within the existing law.
Stella Creasy
I hear the Secretary of State say that, yet I see officials in the Northern Ireland Department of Health, in their response to the programme enabling women to come to England for abortions, doing exactly what she has just said she does not want civil servants to do. It is already happening. The Bill will confirm the power that they have to do that, because the Secretary of State is giving them powers in the absence of the Assembly. Will she at least recognise that she has a powerful role to play as a check and balance in that process, and that that is what the new clause is about?
Karen Bradley
Let me say very gently to the hon. Lady that I disagree with her interpretation of what the new clause would do. It would put the NICS in an impossible position, given that the guidance makes it clear that in exercising its functions, it must act at all times in accordance with the law. Let me stress again that the Bill cannot force Northern Ireland Departments to change the law as the new clause seeks to do.
Fiona Bruce
I welcome what my right hon. Friend is saying, but may I ask her to address the question I put to her during my speech: if new clause 7 is passed, will she be vigilant in ensuring that civil servants do nothing that changes the law through her guidance?
Karen Bradley
Civil servants will not be able to change the law: they do not have the power to change the law and we do not want them to have that power. That would put civil servants in an invidious position. It would be totally contrary to the rule of law and the way the independence of the civil service across the whole United Kingdom operates. This is not a precedent that we want to make. I well understand why Members want to see change in this area, and I have great sympathy with that, but this is not the way to do it.
Anna Soubry
Can my right hon. Friend reassure me on two things: first, that new clause 7 is a matter of conscience and we on this side of the House will not be whipped on it, and, secondly, that new clause 7 does not change the law or indeed give anybody the power to change the law? The notes are very clear: it is all about accountability to the Secretary of State so that she can look at human rights and make sure the guidance is there. It does not change the law; it is about guidance and accountability on human rights, and it is a matter of conscience.
Karen Bradley
I am reliably informed that this is a matter of conscience from the point of view of the party Whip on the Government side of the House. I know this is frustrating for my right hon. Friend, and I am not saying this with any pleasure, but am merely stating the facts: the amendment as drafted would not see a change in the law in Northern Ireland. This is a matter that needs to be legislated for in Northern Ireland, and therefore it would not change the situation in Northern Ireland. I add that this is a temporary measure; we need to get an Executive in Stormont, which is what this Bill seeks to achieve, so that they can make the decisions.
Sir William Cash (Stone) (Con)
I am rather encouraged by the line my right hon. Friend is taking on this, because it is about guiding principles, and I have here outcome 12 of the guiding principles for Northern Ireland Departments:
“We give our children and young people the best start in life.”
Will my right hon. Friend bear that in mind, because she is completely right: it is not for civil servants to change the policy? She is completely right on that, and I am very glad to have the assurance she has given, but the best start in life is the key question.
Karen Bradley
I appreciate my hon. Friend’s comments. I well understand that there is great strength of feeling in all parts of the House on this matter. I have considerable sympathy with much of what the hon. Members for Walthamstow and for St Helens North are trying to achieve, but I do not believe that this amendment achieves it, and I believe that the right thing to do is pass this Bill so we can get an Executive back and they can make the decisions in Northern Ireland for the people in Northern Ireland.
I am conscious of time and other Members wish to speak, but I want briefly to touch on a few other points, particularly those made by the Chair of the Select Committee. I know that in amendment 1 my hon. Friend the Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison) is concerned about the need for an extension and how it would work. Perhaps I can commit to consult with the Select Committee if I decide that having an extension is the right thing to do close to the deadline in order for the Select Committee to see my reasoning. I will work with the Select Committee on many of the amendments that my hon. Friend has put forward, because I appreciate that there is concern about scrutiny in Northern Ireland.
The question of the victims’ pension has been raised, and the hon. Member for Edinburgh West (Christine Jardine) has an amendment on it. As I said to those on the Opposition Front Bench, this is a devolved matter, but I have been working with the Victims’ Commissioner. I want to see progress on this matter, and I want all the work that can be done to be done so that when Ministers are back in Stormont they are able to take those decisions.
I am going to conclude at this point, because a significant number of people wish to speak and I want to ensure that all right hon. and hon. Members who have tabled amendments have a chance to speak. I repeat that this Bill is necessary for the people of Northern Ireland so that their public services can continue, and I hope that Members will feel able to support it.
Gareth Thomas
I am grateful to the Secretary of State for the comparative brevity of her remarks, and for her willingness to commit her Minister of State to meeting representatives of the Co-op movement and, more importantly, to meeting them directly herself. I strongly support new clause 7, and I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) for the way in which she spoke to it. I hope that the Committee will forgive me if I briefly touch on the reasons for tabling new clauses 4, 5 and 6, which are tabled in my name and those of a series of hon. Friends on this side of the House.
The new clauses relate to the interests of credit unions, housing co-operatives and energy co-operatives in Northern Ireland. Perhaps I should say at the outset that the largest number of bank branch closures has taken place since the political settlement in Northern Ireland broke down. The two eventualities are not directly related, but the need for a response to the situation clearly exists. Organisations such as credit unions and financial co-operatives have the potential to fill some of the gaps that those bank branch closures have caused. There are no major international banks headquartered in Northern Ireland, and the distance between the decisions that those international banks take and what happens in the communities of Northern Ireland is getting greater and greater.
The only banks that have a Northern Ireland perspective are the credit unions there, and they surely deserve more attention from the civil service in Northern Ireland than they are currently getting. The Secretary of State might not have direct powers in this regard, but she and the Minister of State will be people of considerable influence with the civil servants who do have powers under this legislation, and I hope that she will be willing to lobby on behalf of credit unions in Northern Ireland for a significant share of the financial inclusion pot that the Treasury has set aside. It is currently unallocated and amounts to some £55 million.
I also hope that Ministers will be willing to consider what they can do about the number of people taking on individual voluntary arrangements, causing debts to credit unions not to be paid. This is causing considerable problems for the credit unions. I would also like them to look at issues relating to the funding for energy co-operatives, which is due to run out in April next year, and at the lack of funding and access to land for housing co-operatives. I am grateful to Ministers for their willingness to meet representatives of the Co-operative movement, and on that note, I shall not press my new clauses to a Division.
Anna Soubry
I rise to speak in support of new clause 7, and I urge hon. Members on both sides of the House to support this really meek and mild amendment. It really should not be causing so much agitation, and I think we have to ask ourselves why it is doing so in certain quarters of the House. As many of us discovered when we went to Northern Ireland as guests of Amnesty International, the simple truth is that the laws in Northern Ireland are at best antiquated and at worst barbaric. God forbid that a member of any hon. Member’s family who lived in Northern Ireland were to be raped, but if that woman then found herself to be pregnant, she would not be allowed to terminate her pregnancy even if she had been raped by a member of her own family. She would have no rights and no choice.
In this matter, I have never sought to impose my views on anybody else, but women and young children throughout Northern Ireland have none of the choices that our own constituents have. I met a woman there who was diagnosed with a foetal abnormality when she was 23 weeks pregnant. This was her third attempt to have a child through in vitro fertilisation, and she and her husband were distraught when they were told that their child would die either in the womb or within hours of being born. If they were my constituents, they would have had a choice. They would have been able to talk to their doctor and go through all the available options and, if they so chose, they could have had a termination. That woman was denied all that. She could not even come to England to terminate her pregnancy. She carried that child for 11 weeks as it grew within her womb, with people saying to her, “When is your baby due?” She had to tell them, “My baby is going to die in my womb or it will die within hours of it being delivered.” She had to look at prams, cots and Moses baskets and know that she would never put her child, carried in her womb, into any of them. Her baby did die in the womb, 11 weeks after the diagnosis of a foetal abnormality, and she carried a dead baby for three days before she was finally induced. She gave birth to a baby girl who was decomposing.
Colleagues, right hon. and hon. Members, that is the situation that pertains in Northern Ireland, and new clause 7 seeks not to change that barbaric law, which we want to change—that is why many of us voted with the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson) yesterday—but to maintain the rights of our fellow citizens of this proud United Kingdom. It merely asks that their human rights are properly monitored and does nothing more than that. I urge Members to vote for new clause 7, and the hon. Member for St Helens North (Conor McGinn), who is not in his place, also urges and reminds colleagues that his Marriage (Same Sex Couples) (Northern Ireland) (No.2) Bill returns to this place on Friday. New clause 7 is a matter not just of conscience, but of decent humanity. It is about ensuring that everybody in the United Kingdom has these basic human rights.
Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD)
I thank the Secretary of State for her comments about amendment 22 and simply urge her to continue to pursue the creation of pensions for the 500 people who are suffering from severe physical injuries as a result of the conflict.
I also rise to support new clause 7, and I will be brief because the situation is simple for me. I have defended and promoted devolution for a decade, but I never thought it would be used as a means of abrogating responsibility for the human rights of anyone within the United Kingdom. It is astonishing that my daughter, who lives in Scotland, could perhaps take up a job in Northern Ireland and then lose the rights that she was born with in the United Kingdom. That cannot be acceptable to anyone in this House, but there are people within the UK who do not have the rights that those of us who sit here today enjoy. New clause 7 would help to put that right, and we should support it.
Simon Hoare (North Dorset) (Con)
I had not intended to speak, but I listened to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and my right hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry) and with great attention to the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) who, as the Secretary of State said, argued her case with fluidity, passion and an exemplary understanding of the issues, referring back to the ten-minute rule Bill speech of the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson). Irrespective of what side of the abortion debate line one might find oneself falling, nobody will doubt the passion that the issue evokes or the concern that is expressed.
However, I do say—before anyone starts shouting at me, this may not be the right word to use—that there is a cruelty implicit in new clause 7. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said that the Bill’s purpose is not to create new law and that civil servants are not empowered to create new law, the hon. Member for Walthamstow said that her intention is not to ride a coach and horses through or to undermine in any way either the Good Friday agreement or the legitimacy of the Northern Ireland Assembly, and my right hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe—she is a friend—spoke convincingly and movingly. The cruelty of new clause 7 is that, if it is passed, it will raise a huge amount of hope—although not among everyone in the community of Northern Ireland—but it will not address or deliver on that hope. The cases that she cites would in no way be alleviated or resolved by new clause 7. Those who seek a termination will still have to travel to the mainland, but a huge amount of hope would be raised.
We understand, and the hon. Member for Walthamstow understands, the minutiae of new clause 7. And the Secretary of State, because she is advised by a phalanx of officials, understands what the new clause means in law.
Simon Hoare
Of course that is what this place is for, but my right hon. Friend, in essence, said that all the terrible cases she cited would in some way be stopped or resolved and that people would not have to go through any of these things.
Anna Soubry
I absolutely did not say that, although it is obviously something that many of us now seek to do. New clause 7 is the gentlest step forward so that the Secretary of State and her good officials can monitor human rights and see what is happening. This is important work. With great respect to my hon. Friend the Member for North Dorset (Simon Hoare), he was not here for the whole debate. He does not know, for example, that the situation in Northern Ireland is such that people cannot even be given basic advice at the moment, such is the onerous nature of the law. We are talking about merely looking at the situation, monitoring it and helping the Secretary of State to fulfil her obligations: no false hopes for anyone.
Simon Hoare
My right hon. Friend does not have a unique understanding of what happens in Northern Ireland. Many of us will have been to Northern Ireland, will know people in Northern Ireland and will have heard a variety of experiences and views.
I think we know how the media and social media will deal with this. This will be “Abortion has now been made legal in Northern Ireland.” For many that will be a welcome thing, but for others it will be the worst thing imaginable. Whichever side of the argument we sit on, I am firmly convinced that expectations have been artificially inflated, but I am not convinced by the arguments of the hon. Member for Walthamstow that new clause 7 would not fundamentally undermine the very foundations of devolution, with ramifications for both Scotland and Wales. We should resist this new clause.
Emma Little Pengelly
I am aware that time is short, so I will make a couple of short points.
Following on from the previous speeches, I urge everyone in the Committee not to support new clause 7 for a number of good reasons. First, this is a hugely controversial issue. Regardless of what Members think of my views, they must objectively accept that this is a controversial issue in Northern Ireland. This amendment has been tagged on to a Bill during its accelerated passage through the House. The fact I am standing here with just a couple of minutes to make these points emphasises that this is the wrong way to do it. I urge Members, regardless of their views on the substantive issue, to reject new clause 7, so that we can have proper consideration of this issue in this House or in any other more appropriate Chamber.
Secondly, there is the devolution settlement. The termination of pregnancies is presented by some, including in the Committee, as a very black and white issue—we are either supporting women, or we are against women—but the reality is that court cases in every country in the world, including in relation to the European convention on human rights, have found this to be a complex issue that is rightly for democratic institutions in each jurisdiction.
In the UK, termination of pregnancy is very clearly a devolved issue. I accept that there are some complications in relation to the legal cases, and it may be, for the first time, on very narrow grounds of life-limiting conditions—fatal foetal abnormality, and rape and incest, potentially—that this is ruled to be a human rights issue under the European convention on human rights. If that happens, it becomes a more complex issue, not just for the UK, but for all signatories to that convention, because there will be horizontal impacts from that type of decision. But in the first instance the courts have recognised that this is rightly for the relevant democratic body, which in this case is clearly the Northern Ireland Assembly.
Nigel Mills
I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dame Eleanor Laing)
I call Stella Creasy to move new clause 7 formally.
Stella Creasy
I move new clause 7 formally. We love whom we love. We all want control over our bodies. Let us choose to give each other—
The First Deputy Chairman
We have done that bit.
New Clause 7
Equal rights for people of Northern Ireland (No. 2)
‘(1) In the absence of Northern Ireland Ministers to address the matters identified by recent, current and future court proceedings in relation to the human rights of the people of Northern Ireland, the Secretary of State must issue guidance to senior officers of all Northern Ireland departments which will specify how to exercise their functions in relation to—
(a) the incompatibility of the human rights of the people of Northern Ireland with the continued enforcement of sections 58 and 59 of the Offences against the Person Act 1861 with the Human Rights Act 1998, and
(b) the incompatibility of the human rights of the people of Northern Ireland with the continued enforcement of section 13(e) of the Matrimonial Causes (Northern Ireland) Order 1978
where they pertain to the provision and management of public services in Northern Ireland.
(2) The Secretary of State shall report guidance under this section on a quarterly basis to the House of Commons and set out her plans to address the impact of the absence of Northern Ireland Ministers on human rights obligations within three months of the day on which this Act is passed.”—(Stella Creasy.)
This new clause would increase accountability of the Secretary of State and senior officers of Northern Ireland departments for their role in ensuring human rights compliance in Northern Ireland, in the absence of Northern Ireland Ministers, by requiring them to address incompatibilities between legislation applied in Northern Ireland and human rights obligations.
Brought up,
Question put, That the clause be added to the Bill.
Northern Ireland (Executive Formation and Exercise of Functions) Bill
Thursday 25th October 2018
(6 years, 1 month ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Northern Ireland (Executive Formation and Exercise of Functions) Act 2018 Read Hansard Text Amendment Paper: HL Bill 137(a) Amendment for Committee (PDF) - (25 Oct 2018)
Northern Ireland (Executive Formation and Exercise of Functions) Bill
Tuesday 30th October 2018
(6 years, 1 month ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Northern Ireland (Executive Formation and Exercise of Functions) Act 2018 Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: HL Bill 137-I(a) Amendments for Committee, supplementary to the marshalled list (PDF) - (30 Oct 2018)
Lord Duncan of Springbank
That the Bill be now read a second time.
Relevant Documents: 15th Report from the Constitution Committee, 36th and 37th Reports from the Delegated Powers Committee
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office and Scotland Office (Lord Duncan of Springbank) (Con)
My Lords, as I have said on many occasions, the Government remain emphatic in their support and advocacy of the Belfast agreement. The beating heart of the Belfast agreement is a devolved power-sharing Executive Government, and for that reason the restoration of a devolved power-sharing Executive is our top priority. Much to our regret, and despite our best efforts, there remains no devolved government in Northern Ireland. I believe we all share a common view that this is not good, particularly at this serious and important time. Let there be no doubt: the people of Northern Ireland need and deserve a devolved Government—a sustainable, stable, fully functioning and inclusive devolved Government.
I would much rather not be here—I suspect that many of your Lordships might share that sentiment—and that the Bill was not necessary. However, for reasons we have discussed before, sadly it is. As a Government we remain committed to taking those decisions necessary to provide good governance and political stability for Northern Ireland. This package of measures is a key staging post toward restoring a devolved power-sharing Executive and Assembly.
I do not doubt that the debate that follows will be wide-ranging. However, I shall state at the outset what the Bill seeks to achieve. The purpose is threefold. First, it will create a time-bound period for the intensive talks necessary to create an Executive. Secondly, it will ensure the functioning of the Northern Ireland departments during that period. Let me be clear that the Bill does not give the Northern Ireland departments new powers. Instead, it provides clarity on the exercise of existing powers in the absence of Ministers, and will be underpinned by guidance that will help Northern Ireland departments judge whether those powers should be used in the absence of Ministers. Finally, it will seek to ensure that key public appointments are made.
I thank the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee and the Constitution Committee of this House, and I put on record both my appreciation and that of my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland for their hard work in scrutinising and publishing the reports on the Bill so very quickly. We accept the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee’s recommendation that the power enabling the Secretary of State to add offices to the table in Clause 5(2) should be subject to the affirmative procedure. The Constitution Committee raised concerns about that procedure and the fast-tracking of the legislation. We agree that this should not become the norm and that it should not be considered to set a precedent.
On the specifics of the Bill, first, it extends the period provided for in the Northern Ireland Act 1998 for Northern Ireland Ministers to be appointed before the local elections in 2019. As your Lordships will be aware, because Ministers were not appointed by 29 June 2017, the 1998 Act requires a further election before an Executive can be formed. As set out in my right honourable friend the Secretary of State’s Statement of 6 September, an election at this time would neither be helpful nor improve the prospect of restoring the Executive. From our engagement with Northern Ireland parties, we believe that this view is widely shared. Nor is the prospect of direct rule an attractive one. The provisions of Clause 1 seek to create a period in which an Executive can be formed and talks can take place, by removing that current legal impediment to an Executive being formed for a defined period.
The Bill also provides, in Clause 2, that this defined period may be extended once, for up to five months, removing the need for further primary legislation in the event that, for example, a short extension is judged necessary to finalise an agreement and form an Executive. I assure noble Lords that we will not be waiting until March to bring the Northern Ireland parties together. Following the passage of this legislation, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State intends to meet party leaders to discuss the basis, process and timing for further talks. My right honourable friend will also welcome all efforts to improve and enhance the political dialogue between the parties in Northern Ireland—including Church leaders and Members of this House—to discuss how best to encourage meaningful political engagement towards the restoration of an Executive.
With regard to decision-making, during this period, in light of recent court judgments, Northern Ireland departments require certainty and clarity. Their decision-making powers in the absence of Northern Ireland Ministers have come under close scrutiny. The Bill makes clear that a senior officer of a Northern Ireland department may exercise departmental functions in the absence of Ministers during the period for forming an Executive, if the officer is satisfied that it is in the public interest to do so. The Bill also requires the Secretary of State to publish guidance on the exercise of departmental functions during this period, including the principles to which senior officers in Northern Ireland departments must have regard when deciding whether to exercise a decision-making function. A draft copy of this guidance has been published and placed in the Library of the House.
The Bill stipulates that the Secretary of State must have regard to representations from Members of the Northern Ireland Assembly before publishing the guidance. Similarly, my right honourable friend would have regard to such representations should the need for revised guidance arise. We would also welcome representations from UK parliamentarians as well as MLAs on its content before a final version is published, something the Secretary of State intends to do shortly after the Bill receives Royal Assent.
The principle established by this Government’s interventions over the past year is that we will legislate where doing so is necessary to protect the delivery of public services and uphold public confidence in Northern Ireland. But let me be clear, while the NICS needs certainty in respect of decision-making powers, these measures do not set or change policy direction on devolved issues in Northern Ireland. That is for a restored Executive and Assembly.
The principles underpinning decision-making are set out in guidance rather than on the face of the Bill, as Northern Ireland departments need a degree of flexibility and discretion to enable them to reach appropriate and necessary decisions and ensure the continued delivery of public services in Northern Ireland. We have engaged closely with the NICS during the development of the draft guidance. The factual information provided by it has informed the approach we have taken.
This Government also recognise that, in the absence of an Executive, there will be some decisions that we, the UK Government, should take, such as setting out departmental budget allocations for approval by Parliament to ensure that public services continue to function.
Noble Lords will be aware of some new elements to the Bill since it has arrived in our House. There was a series of amendments to Clause 4. To be very clear, the clause requires the Secretary of State to issue guidance to Northern Ireland departments on how to exercise their functions in relation to Sections 58 and 59 of the Offences against the Person Act 1861 and Article 13(1)(e) of the Matrimonial Causes (Northern Ireland) Order 1978 and wider human rights. The Secretary of State would also be required to report guidance under this clause on a quarterly basis to the other place, and set out her plans to address the impact of the absence of Ministers on human rights obligations in Northern Ireland within three months of the day on which the Bill receives Royal Assent.
Lord Steel of Aikwood (LD)
I am most grateful to the Minister for giving way. He will recognise that Clause 4, which was inserted in the Bill in the other place, is quite modest in its objectives. During the Brexit negotiations we have been told we cannot have a line down the middle of the Irish Sea affecting trade differently in one part of the United Kingdom from the other. Yet we have a line down the middle of the Irish Sea, affecting the human rights of one part of the United Kingdom, compared with the rights of the rest of the United Kingdom. The Supreme Court in particular, in relation to abortion, said recently,
“the present legislative position in Northern Ireland is untenable and intrinsically disproportionate … the present law clearly needs radical reconsideration”.
What are the Government going to do about that?
Lord Duncan of Springbank
I hope that the noble Lord will allow me to expand on that later. However, in response to him directly on this issue, the Supreme Court judgment to which he refers was based on an absence of standing, which therefore created another technical issue—it was technical only, but it is important to stress that. We already have lines around our United Kingdom, because they are lines of devolution as well. The devolved settlements are important and have a role to play in this. I do not doubt that we will expand on that as certain amendments are discussed later today. However, I of course recognise the point that the noble Lord has raised and will report on it directly in due course, but perhaps he will allow me to continue.
The important aspect here is that, as the honourable Member who drafted the amendment has acknowledged, the new clause does not alter the law in Northern Ireland. This was not a clause that the Government sought but its inclusion was clearly the will of elected Members of the other place. I appreciate the sensitivities around the issues that the clause addresses. Abortion law and same-sex marriage have previously been subject to debate in this House and indeed in the Northern Ireland Assembly. As your Lordships know, these issues are devolved and should, rightly, be determined by an incoming Assembly. However, as I stated, the new clause does not change the law in respect of the wider legal framework in respect of either.
Finally, the Bill contains provisions to address the urgent need for key appointments to be made in Northern Ireland and to certain UK government-sponsored bodies where those appointments would normally require the involvement of Northern Ireland Ministers. Clauses 5 to 7 ensure that key posts can be filled while minimising the extent of UK government intervention in what are, rightly, devolved matters. Clause 5 would allow the relevant UK Minister to make certain specified appointments, exercising the appointments functions already conferred on Northern Ireland Ministers. As my right honourable friend the Secretary of State set out in her Written Statement on 18 July, these posts are the most pressing and urgent appointments, as they are essential to the maintenance of good governance and public confidence in Northern Ireland. They include the Northern Ireland Policing Board, the Probation Board for Northern Ireland, the Northern Ireland Judicial Appointments Commission and the Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland. The Bill takes this focused approach rather than conferring a blanket power on the Secretary of State.
It is also important that we provide for other vital offices which might unexpectedly become vacant. For this reason, the Bill includes provision to add to the list of offices by means of a statutory instrument allowing the relevant UK Minister to exercise Northern Ireland Ministers’ appointment functions in relation to additional specified offices. This power would be used only if the appointments were urgent and necessary, and my right honourable friend the Secretary of State would of course consult the main Northern Ireland political parties before bringing forward regulations.
A large proportion of appointment functions in Northern Ireland are conferred on Northern Ireland departments. The provisions that I outlined earlier dealing with departments’ decision-making powers would provide the necessary clarity to allow the Northern Ireland departments to be able to exercise those appointment functions conferred on them during the formation of the Executive. It does not transfer to them any appointment functions currently conferred on Northern Ireland Ministers.
The lack of an Executive has also affected appointments to UK-wide bodies, as a small number of these require Northern Ireland Ministers to be consulted or to agree an appointment made by a UK Minister. The most pressing example is the appointment by the Home Secretary of a new chair of the Disclosure and Barring Service. Similarly, joint appointments are made by UK and Northern Ireland Ministers. The Bill addresses such appointments by allowing them to be made in the absence of Northern Ireland Ministers but it retains the Northern Ireland input by requiring the UK Minister to consult the relevant Northern Ireland department. The powers given to UK Ministers under Clauses 5 to 7 would expire when Northern Ireland Ministers were appointed and an Executive formed.
The people of Northern Ireland deserve strong, locally elected, accountable individuals sitting in an Assembly, and they deserve a functioning, sustainable devolved Government. Achieving that is our priority, and we continue to be focused on achieving it. On that basis, I commend the Bill to the House.
Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for introducing the Bill before the House today, and I think we understand the reason for it. As he explained, the Bill has three clear and limited purposes: to extend the period to form an Executive; to clarify the functions of the Northern Ireland Civil Service at this time; and to ensure that important public appointments can be made.
We on these Benches do not disagree with the individual elements of the Bill, but the Minister will not be surprised to hear that we are deeply frustrated and disappointed, as I think he acknowledged he himself was, that it has been necessary to bring these measures forward at all. This is now the seventh or eighth piece of legislation that the Government have had to bring forward to Parliament to ensure that Northern Ireland continues to function on a day-to-day basis in the absence of the political parties being able to reach an agreement that would restore the devolved Executive.
The Minister can be in no doubt that this party has a long-established commitment to devolution, and in particular to the institutions in Northern Ireland established under the Good Friday agreement. I have a personal, abiding memory of the referendum, as the result was declared on the morning of my wedding, giving a particularly positive lift to an already happy day. Like, I hope, everybody else around this Chamber, I would hate to see that agreement put at risk, as it currently is because of the stalemate.
The best solution for Northern Ireland remains devolved government and a well-functioning Assembly. However, we are deeply concerned that the real challenge of restarting the talks and restoring an Executive is not being faced up to. As far back as 2017, the then Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, James Brokenshire, stated that the current situation—which is continuing—was “not sustainable” in the long term. We are now almost one year on from that statement, and fast approaching two years since the collapse of the Executive. This really is a shameful indictment of this Government, as well as the parties.
The noble Lord the Minister has more than once talked of “a new impetus” being needed in the talks process—we agree, but when will we see this, and what are the Government doing to spur it on? Although he mentioned that the Secretary of State will follow this legislation through, it would be good to hear in his response precisely what the Secretary of State is going to do to try and break the impasse. It has been eight months since there was any real attempt by the Government to restart talks between any of the parties in Northern Ireland. My understanding is that the recent attempts to encourage discussions were led by Naomi Long, the leader of the Alliance Party, in a separate meeting convened by church leaders at the end of September. The Government really do need to be visible and present.
For Northern Ireland to function properly, we need much more than this. While we welcome the clarity given by the Bill and by guidance to the Northern Ireland Civil Service, enabling officials to take key decisions is not enough. It lacks democracy and proper accountability, as I think the Minister has acknowledged. It is in no way comparable to normal politics, where politicians drive change through committees, departments, the Assembly and the Executive. In the end, devolution is the only credible and democratic way forward, and we must surely exhaust every possible initiative to ensure accountable, local government is back in place.
For quite some time, we on these Benches and others have called for an independent mediator to be appointed to manage a fresh talks process. I would contest that now, more than ever, is the time that an independent facilitator must be appointed. The nature of the breakdown of the talks in February, the subsequent dispute over the status of negotiations, and the damage caused to political relationships make the appointment of an independent facilitator absolutely crucial, and emphatically in the Government’s own interests. In addition to building internal confidence in any talks process, there is also a pressing need to give the public confidence that everything possible is being done to restore the institutions. This means that any talks process needs to be inclusive, with all five parties around the table, and transparent.
As far back as the Stormont House agreement in 2014, there has been recognition that the petition of concern system in the Assembly has not been working as it was originally intended. Since then, we have seen times when it has been used to block progressive social reforms. Indeed, many of the issues that are currently in deadlock between the parties could be resolved democratically on the floor of the Assembly if the ability of some to use, and abuse, the petition of concern was removed. Rather than going back into talks and simply repeating the dynamics of past failures, can the Minister say whether the Government are giving any consideration to reforming the petition of concern? There is a possibility that future-proofing the Assembly to deal with social policies and equality issues, and preventing any single party being able to frustrate the will of the electorate in the future, could change the pitch and nature of the talks process. Does the Minister agree that such a change could be very helpful in achieving an outcome, and restoring an Executive with the capacity to address issues of current concern across the Province?
I have tabled and am supporting amendments to address some important policy issues for Northern Ireland that are currently not being resolved as there is no Executive and Assembly in place. I will address these in detail in Committee, but I place on record my strong personal support for Clause 4, which I am sure is shared on these Benches, which was inserted by a free vote in the Commons. Recent polls have shown support of up to 76% for equal marriage. There is also a huge amount of public support in Northern Ireland to reform the law on abortion: a recent poll showed that some 80% of people now believe that a women should have the choice of abortion if her health is at risk; 80% also feel that the same choice should be there in cases of rape or incest; and 73% of those surveyed in Northern Ireland agree that a woman should have the choice of abortion in cases of fatal foetal abnormality. A figure that the Minister should consider most carefully is that 65% of those surveyed in Northern Ireland think that Westminster should reform the law in the absence of a devolved Government. Across the UK, surveys suggest that as much as 75% of UK citizens believe that the law should be changed and that the UK Government should take responsibility for doing it. I suspect that very high figure reflects discomfiture in knowing that British citizens do not have equal rights across the United Kingdom, something which my noble friend Lord Steel drew attention to in his intervention.
I have a further specific question for the Minister on the detail of the Bill. I would be grateful if he could address this in his remarks at the end of the debate. Clause 3 contains six initial subsections that allow senior officials to take decisions that may have previously been the preserve of Northern Ireland Ministers. However, subsection (7) then states:
“Subsections (1) to (6) have effect despite anything in the Northern Ireland Act 1998, the Departments (Northern Ireland) Order 1999 … or any other enactment or rule of law that would prevent a senior officer of a Northern Ireland department from exercising departmental functions in the absence of Northern Ireland Ministers”.
While the latter part of this sentence appears to qualify this power only to circumstances whereby senior officials are exercising power in the absence of Ministers, it is drafted in a fairly ambiguous way. That is an ambiguity that we could do without, given the length of time since we had a functioning Executive.
Therefore, could the Minister reassure the House that this cannot and will not be used as a justification for not abiding by some key equality and human rights safeguards in the Northern Ireland Act when any such decisions are taken? Specifically, Section 24 of the Act prevents departments “doing any act” that is incompatible with rights under the European Convention on Human Rights or discriminates against a person or class of person on the ground of religious belief or political opinion. Section 75 places procedural requirements to equality screen and to equality impact assess policy decisions. Section 76 prohibits discrimination on sectarian grounds by public authorities. Will the Minister give a categorical assurance that these important protections will not be undermined by the Bill? After all, the UK Government are the legal signatory of the European Convention on Human Rights and, I would argue, have a responsibility to protect and to promote these human rights.
It is abundantly clear that issues of vital importance that are in the public interest are not being addressed in Northern Ireland. This is of concern not just to people in Northern Ireland, but to a majority of the people of the United Kingdom. Rather than what we would hope for—the vibrant, progressive and shared society that we want to see—Northern Ireland is being allowed at best to drift and at worst to stagnate. It is imperative that the Government take urgent action to inject momentum into the talks and to end the ongoing political impasse. The people of Northern Ireland deserve nothing less, but it is the responsibility of the Government, as well as the parties of Northern Ireland, to break the deadlock, bring about change and get normality back.
Lord Morrow (DUP)
My Lords, those who spoke before me, albeit just two, have committed themselves to devolution in Northern Ireland. That is something that I and my party are strongly in favour of. Indeed, records will show that we are the only party that has not dallied with other ideas for Northern Ireland over the past 30 or 40 years. We are strong believers in devolution. We believe that devolution is the way forward. We believe that it serves Northern Ireland well and that the people of Northern Ireland should be making those decisions.
However, I have some concern when I hear some Members past and present speak who want to cherry pick things that London should be deciding and then maybe Northern Ireland politicians can decide other things if and when devolution returns. We will strongly oppose any attempt to cherry pick and decide what should or should not happen in Northern Ireland. However, if—and I know that the Minister has not said this—it is the opinion that direct rule should return, then let it return in full, not piecemeal, because that gives everybody the worst of both worlds.
We stand here today ready to go back into a Northern Ireland Assembly tomorrow, with no ifs, ands or buts, and no preconditions. It has to be said here, loud and clear, that it was Sinn Féin members who brought down the Northern Ireland Assembly—and I suspect that, if it were to be restored again, they would do the same all over again at their own timing. That is the way they work.
There are aspects of this Bill about which we have great concerns. I have great concerns about Clause 4. I do not want to get into technical, legal arguments that I know others will want to address: I will save my contribution on that for Committee. I simply want to point out that some others do not want to point out that abortion is a devolved matter. Legislation in Northern Ireland is the most up-to-date in any part of the United Kingdom, having been decided in 2016 on a cross-party vote. There was no petition of concern, but it was decided on a simple, straightforward majority that the law should remain as it is.
Lord Adonis (Lab)
My Lords, will the noble Lord explain to the House what the Parliament of the United Kingdom is supposed to do where a matter is devolved and there are no devolved institutions?
Lord Morrow
I simply point out again to the noble Lord that it is a devolved matter—but he consciously ignores that. I would respect him more if he would have more respect for what the people and the elected representatives of Northern Ireland have said quite recently. Furthermore, it is not going to help us to get power-sharing back. That surely should be the aim and the goal of this House: the restoration of devolution, as the Minister has already stated.
Polling of 1,013 adults in Northern Ireland conducted between 8 and 15 October showed that 64% of people do not think that Westminster should interfere in this issue but should leave it to the Northern Ireland Assembly. I agree with those 64%. The figures rise to 66% of women and 70% of 18 to 34 year-olds. The same polling also shows that 47% of people in Northern Ireland believe that intervention by Westminster would undermine devolution; only 30% disagree.
Furthermore, I understand that Amnesty has also done some polling on this same question, reaching different conclusions. However, I note, first, that it was conducted by an organisation that is not a member of the British Polling Council. Secondly, it did not release the polling tables for this question; and, thirdly—inexplicably—it left out the “don’t knows” and the “prefer not to says”. This inevitably distorts the outcome. Had the polling I cited been done, the proportion of Northern Ireland citizens saying that Westminster should not intervene would be more than 70%.
Of course, I accept that all polling has its limitations. The country vote on which we can depend was the election of the Northern Ireland Assembly, of which I was then a Member, by the women and men of Northern Ireland. This Assembly determined, by a simple majority vote and without reference to a petition of concern—I emphasise that—not to change abortion law in any way on 10 February 2016. Of course, if at some future point the Supreme Court issued a declaration of incompatibility with respect to any aspect of our law, the Northern Ireland Assembly would respond appropriately.
Lord Empey (UUP)
My Lords, I said when the Bill was first mooted that it was a smokescreen for failure, and that is exactly what it is. It is before us only because the Government have been forced by various actions pending in the courts. One action would have forced the Secretary of State to call an election. The noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, referred some months ago to the fact that the Government had been acting ultra vires for quite a long time. The provocation for it, of course, was when a decision by a senior official in the Department for Infrastructure was struck down over a waste incinerator, of all things. The Government realised then that the civil servants who had been taking decisions could no longer do so and were not prepared to do so. I fully understand their position.
In many cases we are using the Civil Service in Northern Ireland as a football—as an excuse, in some respects, for not taking other decisions. As long as it is prepared to take decisions and keep things running, everybody can stand back and say, “Things are ticking over okay, there is no urgency”.
I also want to deal with the appearance that some form of political talks process and action is happening. There is not. Every fortnight, the Secretary of State rings up the party leaders, she speaks to them for a few minutes, asks a number of questions—probably off a list—and that is about the height of it. There is no formal process and there has not been one for months. There is nothing happening in that area at all.
The Minister has brought several pieces of legislation before us over the past year and we have had this conversation many times. He has said that we cannot continue with this, we cannot let this go on any longer, there is only so far we can push it. I have to say to the Minister that he has developed the ability to say nothing with great conviction and compassion. I do not believe that if he was put in the spotlight he could actually defend what is being done here. On the formation of an Executive, the dogs in the street know that there is not going to be an Executive this side of Brexit. Everybody knows that. Secondly, of course, in the last formal process between the parties, which ended in February, while there was no agreement between the parties at that stage, there was clearly a set of understandings that were to be put to the respective parties for their approval. That blew up in their faces at that time. So getting that process going again with the existing personnel in place is going to be extremely difficult.
The other thing that has happened is that support for devolution and for the Assembly is withering. The behaviour of the last Administration was absolutely outrageous by any standards. Anybody who has paid the slightest attention to the inquiry conducted by Sir Patrick Coghlin into the RHI would be shocked and appalled at the attitude and the culture that were operating in that Executive, where spads, paid enormous sums of money—between £85,000 and £92,000 a year—were able to effectively run departments. That applies to both the DUP and Sinn Féin. Sinn Féin’s Minister had to go cap in hand to somebody who was not allowed to be a spad, who did not even have that capacity but was in Sinn Féin headquarters, to get permission to see whether they could bring the heating scheme to an end and put a cap on the prices. A DUP adviser, when he thought the money was coming from annually managed expenditure, which is outwith the block grant, said that we could fill our boots. This is the attitude. This House and this Parliament seem to be oblivious to it; the Government know what is going on; they have not covered it up but have ignored it. They have turned a blind eye for months—for years. People are disgusted and fed up. Every time this happens, it is harder and harder to get things going.
I have drawn attention to issues concerning health. There is the issue of institutional abuse, which I know is coming forward in Committee. On health itself, I believe we have to take some decisions on humanitarian, not on political, grounds. With our waiting lists, people’s lives are being directly affected and injured as a result of the inability to have a Minister in place.
I say to this House and to Parliament in general that this situation cannot continue much longer, but as long as the Government are prepared to turn a blind eye to it, it will. There are no initiatives at all. Regarding the issues in Clause 4, while the public have latched on to this and we have all received lots of emails, nothing in this Bill is actually changing the law. People misunderstand that: they think the law is being changed, but it is not. To some extent, it is smoke and mirrors. Those who will be happy with the idea that the law is changing will be disappointed, and those who are not happy that the law is going to be changed are obviously frightened by this.
The Minister should at least clarify the legal position. We all know that the efforts to clarify the situation for civil servants are only going to last between now and the next judicial review. We will be back here in a few months in the same pickle as we are in today.
Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con)
My Lords, my intention is to speak about Clause 4 only and the legal situation which is the background to it. I am taking no position on the substantive issues which underlie the clause, but it is quite clear that the intention of those who promoted the Motion put to approve Clause 4 as an amendment in the House of Commons, on a free vote, was to bring the law on abortion in Northern Ireland into line with modern law on the other side of the Irish Sea. The position is that abortion has been made a devolved subject. Therefore, the only statutory authority with authority to alter the statutes and statutory instruments is the Legislative Assembly of Northern Ireland and Ministers of that Assembly. There is no power whatsoever in the United Kingdom Parliament to interfere with that while it is devolved.
The noble Lords, Lord Steel of Aikwood and Lord Bruce of Bennachie, mentioned that there is a border in the Irish Sea on this point. That is certainly true. There are borders between here and Scotland on a number of things, including, for example, free prescriptions in the health service. It is part of devolution that the law on one side of the devolved border may be different from the law on the other side. I am a little surprised that exponents of devolution found that surprising, but that is the fact. That is part of the background of the law on this matter. The devolved issue is one, as I say, for the Northern Ireland Assembly and Ministers acting as Ministers of that Assembly.
Where that is the law, the question of the Human Rights Act is important. Your Lordships will recollect that the Human Rights Act does not modify existing law. There is a power in the courts to declare a provision of British law—this would apply in Northern Ireland as well—incompatible with the convention provision in the Human Rights Act. That decision of the courts does not affect the law unless and until it is acted on by Parliament. Perhaps the best example of that was the relationship between the Westminster Parliament and prisoners’ voting rights. That was declared incompatible with the convention rights by a Scottish court many years ago and the English court followed it, saying it was not necessary to do it twice because there was nothing wrong with the way that the Scots had done it—which is a compliment that I always like to hear. Anyway, that is what happened, and it remained the law of the United Kingdom for a long time. There have been some slight modifications recently but the idea that the Human Rights Act changes existing statutes is wrong. It is part of the provision of the Human Rights Act that it does not do so.
Therefore, the only authority to alter the existing law and bring it into conformity with the Human Rights Act is the legislature in question, if it is a statute that is in issue. Therefore, there is no question that the Secretary of State could by guidance alter the law in this matter, which is to a considerable extent defined by statutes which are in existence and in force in Northern Ireland. The Secretary of State is mandated to do this—she must do this—but if she were to make an order, it would be immediately set aside because it is quite clear from the statistics that have been given that not everybody in Northern Ireland is of exactly the same mind in connection with abortion. If it were so, it might pass without any challenge but in Northern Ireland that is extremely unlikely. Therefore, if the Secretary of State were to make an order trying to escape the existing statutes of Northern Ireland relevant to this subject, she would be immediately struck down as doing something which she is not entitled to do. The fact that she would have been asked to do that by Parliament is an extraordinary situation.
I know that those who moved this amendment in the House of Commons did so with that in mind—that this might be a way forward—but in this House we must take the view that that is not possible. I tabled an amendment for Committee—the last one, which will presumably come fairly late this evening—about that. I am proposing to move the amendment so that discussion will be possible but I do not intend to press it to a Division because abortion has always been—rightly, because it is a matter of conscience—on a free vote. This amendment was passed on a free vote in the House of Commons and therefore I do not intend to press it here. There may be others who want to do that and the fact I have tabled the amendment makes that possible. I just make it clear that I am not going to do that because it would be completely ineffective in producing the result that the movers of it wanted.
Lord Dubs (Lab)
My Lords, the Bill is a sad necessity and many of us hoped that the Executive and institutions would have been restored in Belfast long before today. I will make just a few brief comments.
One of the arguments that has been put is that we should stop paying Members of the Legislative Assembly. I know that their pay is going to be cut a bit but I caution against doing more than that small cut, simply because if we take away all income from Members of the Legislative Assembly, they will have to find other jobs, and then when the Executive is restored we will have no politicians ready to take over and we would denude Northern Ireland of some people who would have a part to play in public life there. So I would caution against being too harsh with the pay of Members of the Legislative Assembly.
I have tried to understand what constraints the Bill seeks to permit or not to permit in terms of decision-making by civil servants—and I am bound to say that I found it pretty difficult. I have read the bits of paper, but maybe the Minister will throw some light on this in winding up. Of course, the civil servants in Northern Ireland have, by tradition, done a pretty good job. They are used to it. Ministers come and go, and the civil servants stay—but in the absence of Ministers they tend to be excessively cautious. One cannot blame them for that, but the difficulty with excessive caution is that very little will happen unless we take away the constraints that the civil servants impose on themselves.
Let me give a few examples. On the Parliament channel I happened to stumble on some Northern Ireland television and saw a bizarre example, which I think I have now had confirmed. It is not proper for Members of the Legislative Assembly to put on the noticeboard above their constituency office more than their name and their party; they may not put their email address or their phone number. Indeed, if that television programme was right, David Ford, a former Justice Minister, will lose his Assembly money and be penalised by £10,000 because he put his email address and phone number on the sign above his office door. I cannot think of anything dafter or more absurd. I hope that the Minister will find a way of getting rid of that stupid anomaly and giving David Ford the money to which he is surely entitled under the present provisions. We spend our time—or at least, they certainly do in the Commons—trying to make ourselves available to the public, yet there, by some bizarre reason, things go the other way.
I have been trying to understand the details of the Budget. I have not yet managed to do it all, but I understand that there are some provisions for extra expenditure in Northern Ireland, including expenditure on shared and integrated education projects. Is that extra money now available to be spent on integrated schools, and will civil servants get the go-ahead to do that, rather than having to wait until the Executive are restored? Integrated education is surely crucial to politics in Northern Ireland, and to harmony among communities. All we are saying is that parents in Northern Ireland would like to have the choice of integrated education, and I would like to feel that, on the basis of yesterday’s Budget Statement, there is a bit of money in the budget available for this purpose.
I also note what the Bill says about appointments. I think that there are some other appointments that are not listed, and the danger is that if the Secretary of State permits appointments to be made only fairly late in the day, there could be a lame duck in a senior post, not knowing whether he or she had a future. That is a very unsatisfactory position to be in. I urge that the Secretary of State should give as much notice as possible in the case of renewing appointments, or of removing appointees and appointing new people, so that there is at least some continuity. That would be fair to Northern Ireland and to the people concerned.
I am worried about what the decision-making will mean regarding planning constraints. There have been one or two such cases in Northern Ireland, and in the past few months civil servants have been very cautious about giving the go-ahead for major projects requiring planning permission, because they are concerned about whether they have those powers or not. Planning constraints are important, but I hope there can be at least some relaxation, so that worthwhile projects that would create jobs and be beneficial to Northern Ireland are not held up. When people want planning permission for such projects they cannot always wait. They may not have the money to sit tight, and the chance will go away. The Minister will know of some examples.
I note what the noble and learned Lord who preceded me said about abortion, but I want to leave that until we deal with the amendment.
Penultimately, may I ask the Minister a question that he will expect to come from me—one about child refugees? I know that some parts of Northern Ireland have taken Syrian families, but I would like the Minister to answer this question: can it be made possible for Northern Ireland to provide foster accommodation for child refugees through the scheme under Section 67 of the Immigration Act? I have been told by people in Northern Ireland that they would like to co-operate, and there are local foster parents who would be willing. I understand that it is a matter for the health boards. I have talked to lots of people and they are all keen that there should be some progress. Can the Minister throw some light on whether that would be possible, or could be made possible?
Lastly, the Minister talked at a number of points in his speech about the consent of the Northern Ireland parties to one or two specific issues. I wonder how widely it could be made a principle underlying the Bill that the Northern Ireland parties should be asked in an informal consultation process about some of the issues we are talking about today. That would help to move things along. It would not give a mandate or make the process legal in terms of devolution, but at least consulting the Northern Ireland parties on some of the changes that need to be made might not be a bad idea.
Lord Eames (CB)
My Lords, the columns of our newspapers in Northern Ireland are frequently filled with people giving their wise or otherwise comments on public affairs. In the last few weeks the discussion of the Bill that is before the House today prompted one writer to say, “Here we go again”—and I have a feeling that that is the emotion that many noble Lords will be feeling at this moment. Because I believe that that is a danger in its own way, we need to put everything that we are saying this afternoon—and, as I have been reminded, this evening—in the context of what the reality is.
Yes, here we go again: we face another look at the disastrous consequences of a failure to establish a local Administration at Stormont. We all know the story, the excuses and the reasons, and we are left in no doubt that, even though at one stage in recent history, we are told, the main parties were within grasping distance of an agreement, no agreement was possible. For my part, I believe that we would be failing the people of Northern Ireland, who are after all the substance of what we are doing, if we did not realise that, no matter what the details are of our discussion and debate, it has an effect right across the board on a society that in many ways is unique.
It is unique because it is a devolved Administration and because many of the things that have happened question the value of devolution and the way in which the United Kingdom goes about it. In the margin of many of the arguments that we have heard over and over in this House, there are questions of a fundamental nature that we find it comfortable to avoid, such as: does devolution mean the New Jerusalem to those concerned because power is given to local politicians? When those local politicians find that the margins in which they are asked to work are not possible, we then ask the bigger question: does that mean we have somehow got the theory of devolution wrong?
Once more the disastrous consequence of the failure to reach agreement on the formation of that devolved Administration for which we had such hope at the time of the Good Friday agreement is that our people are being denied a voice on serious issues. The reality is that this failure means that medical services, education, social services, roads, transport and indeed victims face impossible odds because Stormont cannot take serious decisions.
It would be very easy to place much of what we are talking about this afternoon in a context that takes us away from the reality of the experience of Northern Ireland. It is a society which has suffered much and which is still trying to come to terms with the wounds of the Troubles. They are not just physical or obvious wounds. They are the failure to build relationships, to mature in political relationships and to understand that within our grasp, if we have the rare will to do it, we can achieve much that has so far eluded us. The absence of this local devolved Administration in these days as Brexit comes galloping—dare I say?—across the Irish border, fast approaching with all its unanswered questions, means that Northern Ireland is bereft of the presentation of its local voice.
We have been reminded by the Minister that this is the Government’s attempt to meet a unique situation. We are told that it is one means of encouraging local government in Stormont. It places on our Civil Service responsibilities to take actions that could easily lead it into a legal minefield. That, for me, is a real concern. It causes long-term questions on the theory of devolution. We are bound to ask: after this Bill, what happens next? What happens if the consequences of this Bill falter yet again? Will the Government face another situation where special needs must be met by special provisions? Are we, in fact—I ask the Minister directly—in danger of setting a precedent that could be interpreted in other devolution relationships in the United Kingdom? Today we face decisions affecting the people of Northern Ireland which their representatives, rather than Westminster, ought to take.
Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)
My Lords, no one in this House who has just heard what the noble and right reverend Lord said would feel anything other than the most profound sympathy, both for what he said and the picture he painted. I am English but married to an Ulsterman and go regularly to Northern Ireland. I heard that with mounting depression, but it does not surprise me. I also feel a great deal of sympathy for the Government, who are doing their best not to take over. They are doing their best to allow for a situation in which they can persuade those who do not seem to want to be persuaded that they must form an Executive and recall the Assembly.
I want to say a few words about Clause 4, which is not, of course, government-inspired, for obvious reasons. In the other place, there were interesting and useful arguments on devolution and human rights. It is not necessary to explore those today, except to say that the Supreme Court has criticised the situation in Northern Ireland in no uncertain terms. I particularly remark on the speech of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Kerr, who was the Lord Chief Justice of Northern Ireland, and was perhaps more outspoken about the injustice to the women of Northern Ireland.
On the Bill itself, even if there had been a declaration of incompatibility, as a previous speaker seemed to think, the Supreme Court could not make it because it came from the commission, not an individual, so there was no declaration. As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, pointed out very clearly in his exposition of the law, a declaration of incompatibility would not help at all in this situation. If he is right, as I assume he is, abortion is currently more serious an issue than same-sex marriage because at least there can be civil partnerships. The current situation on abortion is, however, as the Supreme Court said, profoundly unfair. I would not want to open the floodgates of easy abortion to Northern Ireland, but certainly there are situations of rape, incest and foetal abnormality that absolutely cry out to be dealt with.
Having heard the figures from various noble Lords, it is interesting that, like many others, I have had a lot of emails from women supporting the clause and women opposing it—more supporting the clause. I feel, “Poor dears, what do they think this clause really means?” The clause means absolutely nothing on abortion. It will help no one, and it raises expectations with a clear misconception, misunderstanding and misinterpretation of what the clause will say when it inevitably becomes law.
As the Secretary of State in the other place said, the clause puts an impossible burden on her because she will be expected to do something. Those who disapprove of it will see that she may do something they do not like. Those who want it—despite some of the figures we have heard, many women do want it—will find that she cannot do it. Her civil servants cannot do it. As the noble and learned Lord said, if they tried to do anything, they would rightly be slapped down by judicial review because sufficient people would oppose it for it to be taken to the Northern Ireland courts.
There has been a very well-meaning attempt by Members of the House of Commons to circumvent devolution by putting in a clause that I cannot believe they thought would mean anything or would do any good. I do not understand what they thought would happen but it will send a message—or a number of messages. I was told yesterday by somebody from Northern Ireland that this could even send a message that might have some adverse effect on the Good Friday agreement. That may be a step too far but it is certainly something that one cannot ignore. It is the expectation that has been raised that is so sad. What will the Belfast Telegraph, the News Letter or other newspapers in Belfast say after this goes through and becomes law?
If anything is to be done, the Government will have to take over the management of Northern Ireland and, in doing so, the point made by the noble and learned Lord will fall away because London—Westminster—would be making the laws. If Westminster makes the laws, it could change the Offences Against the Person Act, but until the Government do that—and they have absolutely no intention that I can see to do that, for obvious reasons—there is a stalemate, and nothing useful can be done. It is very unfortunate that seeing the Bill through on one day, for perfectly good reasons, means that there is no time for reflection on the best way forward. Clause 4 will pass and it is very unfortunate that it will become law.
Lord Dunlop (Con)
My Lords, I rise to support this Bill—the fifth piece of fast-track Northern Ireland legislation this Session. I confess that I do so with a slightly heavy heart, because legislating this way is far from ideal, as the Constitution Committee— of which I am a member—points out in its report. However, I sympathise with the Government’s predicament. Last year, as a Minister in the Northern Ireland Office, I brought before your Lordships’ House a fast-track Bill to extend the limit for creating an Executive to 108 days. Going the extra mile to try to restore devolved government in Northern Ireland is clearly right. By all accounts, as has already been pointed out, the DUP and Sinn Fein came within a whisker of an agreement in February. Further extending the time available is an understandable impulse, but will the sense of urgency to strike a deal diminish with each deadline passed and then extended? What happens if stalemate persists at the end of extra time, when there is no political equivalent of a penalty shootout to break the deadlock? These nagging questions remain.
All that said, in the circumstances I believe that the Bill is the least-worst option judged against two pretty unattractive alternatives. Those are either that there will be another Assembly election that changes little, with a campaign that might unhelpfully raise the political temperature; or that the spectre of direct rule returns. No one wants that; history has shown that it is not easy to escape from—it took nearly five years the last time.
That is why the current state of affairs is so frustrating. Between the end of direct rule and the dissolution of the Assembly in January 2017, Northern Ireland enjoyed the longest unbroken period of devolved government since the dissolution of the old Stormont Parliament in 1972. That was nearly 10 years in which there were real and positive steps forward in Northern Ireland, and it is a more peaceful and prosperous place today as a result. Yet, just at the moment that Northern Ireland should be driving forward and building on the progress of the last two decades, it has languished for 22 months without Executive Ministers. If negotiations go to the wire allowed for by this Bill, the vacuum could in theory persist for another 10 months. That is nearly three years without an Executive developing policy and being held to account by a fully functioning Assembly.
This is a troubling democratic deficit that our UK Parliament could never hope to make up. However, if further legislation is required, or fresh guidance from the Secretary of State, I hope the Government will be mindful of the need to provide as much time as practical for this Parliament to scrutinise and debate what is proposed.
It is, of course, the Buick judgment in July that has forced the Government to act now. The court judged that decisions normally for a Minister to approve lie beyond the competence of a senior civil servant in the absence of a Minister. However, the court offered no definitive view on where the dividing line should be drawn. Matters that are significant, controversial or engage more than one department would normally be a collective Executive decision, and therefore are clearly beyond a senior civil servant’s competence, in even these exceptional times.
The Bill still leaves a very large grey area. In the absence of this Bill and in the face of a heightened risk of further legal challenges, one can well imagine how there might be a chilling effect on Civil Service decision-making. The Bill seeks to fill that void. However, the lines between policy and administration are never clear cut. The scheme set out in Clause 3 and draft guidance attempts to strike a balance that is difficult, if not impossible to achieve—balancing sufficiently wide scope of administrative discretion with the controls on how that discretion is exercised, without normal accountability mechanisms. The Constitution Committee’s report highlights a number of constitutional issues, including the breadth of conferred powers, lack of clear lines of accountability and the retrospective effect of Clause 3. However, the committee accepts that exceptional times require an exceptional response, while expressing concern that the Bill’s exceptional and constitutionally challenging provisions are not taken as precedents for future legislation.
Whatever our concerns about the Bill, we must not lose sight of the bigger picture. In the absence of fully functioning devolved institutions, decisions crucial to the future prosperity and security of the people of Northern Ireland are simply not being taken. Devolved corporation tax designed to give a boost to Northern Ireland’s economy is stalled; £2 billion of critical economic infrastructure, such as the north/south electricity interconnector and the new Belfast transport hub are in a holding pattern. Recommendations from the Hart report into historical institutional abuse are unimplemented. A strong elected voice representing Northern Ireland’s interests in the Joint Ministerial Committee discussions to prepare for Brexit is absent, not to mention the pressures facing schools and hospitals. Nothing in the Bill will directly change this state of affairs. One can only hope that the Bill provides a space to facilitate a political resolution.
My last official engagement as a Northern Ireland Office Minister was on 7 June last year, on a windswept ridge in Flanders, at the ceremony to commemorate the centenary of the Battle of Messines. The battle has great symbolic significance for the island of Ireland. Soldiers from the 36th (Ulster) and 16th (Irish) Divisions fought together for the first time during the First World War. Unionists and nationalists set aside political differences to unite in a common cause. Their story and sacrifice made a powerful impression on all those there, nationalists and unionists alike. The example of those servicemen echoes down the years and stands as a rebuke to those who have not—after nearly two years—resolved their differences. As we approach our own national day of remembrance, I hope that Northern Ireland’s political leaders will reflect on the example set by those soldiers, rise to the same heights of leadership and do right by the people of Northern Ireland by restoring the devolved government they clearly want, urgently need and so richly deserve.
Lord Browne of Belmont (DUP)
My Lords, regrettably we are again discussing another piece of legislation that should not have been necessary. Once more, we are holding a debate against the backdrop of a Northern Ireland with no locally accountable decision-making body in place. None of us wants to be in the current situation with no local decision-makers. As I have said many times before in this House, it is vital that we move forward positively. Northern Ireland has moved on considerably during the last decade and, despite the present situation, none of us wants to go back to where we were in the past. In the context of the continued absence of a fully functioning Assembly and Government, legislation such as this is necessary to facilitate the continued governance of public services. Bills require scrutiny, analysis and examination. This is the level of accountability that one should expect. Time does not allow for a great deal of that today and I would, naturally, prefer that such matters were scrutinised in the context of Stormont. Unfortunately, this is not the present reality.
I support the Bill, but I do so cautiously as it is limited in scope and far from an ideal solution. Before focusing on a couple of specific concerns, it is important to look at how we have reached this situation. It is worth repeating that we are discussing these matters in your Lordship’s House, and in the other place, only because of one party’s narrow agenda. Instead of a fair and balanced way forward, the party that collapsed the Stormont Assembly in January 2017, and refused to return, continues to halt progress in re-establishing a Government. One party continues to place the fulfilment of demands ahead of governing in the interests of everyone in Northern Ireland. Unfortunately, the result is that there is little prospect of a return to local decision-making at this time.
The legislation before us, although welcome, will continue to present challenges. Unaccountable senior civil servants have been tasked with taking decisions within departments for a considerable period of time. It is true to say that in some instances, decisions have been delayed and many are still not being made. I commend the Government for being proactive in issuing supporting guidance to the Civil Service so that it can get on with its job of doing the necessary work to advance day-to-day living in Northern Ireland.
The Buick ruling undoubtedly undermined the status of officials. Although the legislation and guidance are aimed at dealing with this directly and at providing some advice and clarity to reassure officials, I remain concerned that it gives limited scope for decision-making. There are still real concerns that decisions will be subject or open to judicial review or legal challenges. Does this legislation do enough to minimise the possibility of such a scenario?
It is to be welcomed that there is some assurance that decisions can be made, although it is likely that these will be non-controversial, covering planning and investment, which enjoy a broad consensus. I welcome the Government’s clarity in the other place that a decision such as that on the transport hub, which is crucial to Northern Ireland’s economy, can be advanced under the terms of the legislation. Policing Board members and other appointments can now be made, and this is extremely important.
There is now a specific requirement for senior department officials to report monthly directly to Her Majesty’s Government on decisions that have been taken under the Bill. This is an important point which deals with transparency, and I am pleased to see that it has been included.
There are some understandable fears of a continuation of the current situation, in which decisions in a range of areas, such as education, health, housing and major projects are not being taken. The Bill provides no certainty on key decisions. Permanent Secretaries in a number of departments have been cautious to date about advancing the number of decisions which have been in the pipeline for a considerable time. More than 200 decisions have lain in abeyance across departments since the suspension of the Assembly, and although we have made some progress within this Bill, there is no compulsion for officials to make key decisions that impact on the people of Northern Ireland.
These decisions need to be made if we are to see day-to-day public services restored to the level at which they should be. Budgetary decisions also need to be taken urgently, and policing and departmental spending challenges will continue to be an issue in some cases, as the allocations officials are working with are based on historic decisions taken by the previous Assembly.
On Clause 4, regardless of one’s personal views on abortion, it must objectively be accepted that this is a controversial issue in Northern Ireland. An amendment has been tagged on to this Bill, and this does not allow enough time for proper consideration or scrutiny of this matter. It is also the case that, in the United Kingdom, this is clearly defined as a devolved matter. The courts have recognised that this issue is, rightly, for the relevant democratic body, which, in this instance, is the Assembly. This is an attempt to change the law. As the Government have previously noted, guidance cannot do that. Any change in the current law in Northern Ireland will require legislative change. This provision is asking the Government to ask officials to do something that is impossible in law. This clause is therefore an inappropriate vehicle, regardless of the substantive issue involved.
Given that we are now approaching two years since the Assembly last met, we have reached a point where there needs to be some level of political decision-making, accountability and public scrutiny. Decisions will need to be made on a range of issues. I ask the Minister to provide assurance to departments that relevant ministerial approval will be provided.
Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)
My Lords, in March 1979, four days after Airey Neave was brutally murdered in the precincts of Parliament, I made my maiden speech in the House of Commons. I reflected on the need to find political solutions to the endless cycle of violence in Northern Ireland. During the years that followed, I served as a spokesman on Irish affairs. In 1985 I was appointed by the noble Lord, Lord Steel, to be a member of the commission that served under the chairmanship of the late Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge, which produced the report What Future for Northern Ireland? Our commission concluded that progress could be made if, instead of encamped and embedded hostility to the other community, the respectful place of both traditions in a devolved power-sharing institution could be recognised. While endless legislation was rushed through as emergency legislation, none of it addressed the fundamental issue.
Eight years later, on 20 March 1993, the shocking waste of innocent life was underlined when a bomb was left in a litter bin in a shopping area of Warrington. Two children, three year-old Johnathan Ball and 12 year-old Tim Parry, were murdered. As I stood with John Major at their funeral, it was clear that the finest memorial to those boys would be renewed efforts to end a conflict which, over 30 years, claimed 3,600 lives, injured and maimed thousands more, and left countless lives scarred and disfigured in the way that my noble and right reverend friend Lord Eames described earlier.
The Downing Street declaration of December 1993 paved the way for the Good Friday agreement, signed on 10 April 1998. The painstaking and patient work of a succession of Secretaries of State, some of whom have been in your Lordships’ Chamber this afternoon, the statesmanship of men like John Hume and the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, and ultimately the willingness of the Reverend Ian Paisley and Martin McGuinness to make devolution work, set aside the forced choice between British and Irish identities, with two tribes looking out at one another in enmity and hate—all gains alluded to by the noble Lord, Lord Dunlop, in his moving speech.
I hold both an Irish and a British passport, as do my children. In two world wars, my grandfather and father fought in the British Army, and an uncle died in the Royal Air Force. My mother was a native Irish speaker. Her family suffered extreme poverty in an area where Irish nationalism and republicanism had been nurtured by famine in one century and brutality in the next. So, more than most, I have always had to hold in tension a love of both traditions. From both sides of my family I was taught to abjure violence and to uphold the sanctity of every human life. I am troubled to see the gains of those years now at risk. Here we are again, rushing legislation through this House in 24 hours flat, with the House of Commons having done the same.
I was struck—it has not been referred to yet—by the report of the Select Committee on the Constitution of your Lordships’ House, published only yesterday. It stated:
“We question whether the speed at which the Government wishes to pass this Bill is necessary … more time (even with a fast-track timetable) could have been made available for parliamentary scrutiny of this Bill”—
which is surely our job. It continues:
“We emphasise that in any other circumstances provisions such as these which challenge established constitutional principles would not be acceptable”.
That brings me to Clause 4, which the noble Lord, Lord Browne of Belmont, just referred to, as did other noble Lords. It purports to provide guidance to members of the Civil Service in Northern Ireland in relation to the repeal of Sections 58 and 59 of the Offences Against the Person Act 1861: namely, the provisions banning abortion—the deliberate ending of the life of a child in the womb. This is a serious issue. This is the law of this land. “Procuring miscarriage” is an offence unless two doctors agree that one of the defences set out in the Abortion Act 1967 applies. So how can the Secretary of State issue guidance to another jurisdiction advising on the repeal of legislation that is current law in her own jurisdiction? As the noble Lord, Lord Empey, said earlier, this is smoke and mirrors—and, as the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, said, it makes a nonsense. This is an absurdity, and on this point alone these ill-thought-through amendments ought to be dismissed.
In the mid-1990s, I accompanied a cross-community delegation of Members of Parliament—from the Social Democratic and Labour Party, the Official Unionist Party and the Democratic Unionist Party—to see John Major. We were given his assurance that he and the Conservative Government would insist that abortion would remain a matter to be settled in Northern Ireland. It troubles me that Clause 4 seeks to unsettle that agreement. In a Bill of such a limited and temporary nature, how can anyone reasonably suggest that an issue as contentious and sensitive as abortion should even be included for consideration?
In the Commons, the amendments that were introduced came at such short notice that many MPs did not even know that the House would divide. Karen Bradley, the Secretary of State, was right when she said that if the amendments were passed, which they were, it would put the Northern Ireland Civil Service in “an impossible position”. She went on to say that,
“the Bill cannot force Northern Ireland Departments to change the law”,
as the new clause seeks to do—a point made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, in his remarks earlier. The Secretary of State said:
“It would be totally contrary to the rule of law and the way the independence of the civil service across the whole United Kingdom operates”.—[Official Report, Commons, 24/10/18; col. 385.]
In March of this year, 47 Members of this House, including former Cabinet Ministers, co-signed a letter to the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland noting that legislation from Westminster would severely destabilise the devolution agreement. The Prime Minister says it would not be right for the United Kingdom Government to undermine the settlement agreement.
We have heard many references during the debate to things such as human rights. In December we will celebrate the 70th anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which says that everyone has the right to life. There is no right to abortion in human rights law: let us be clear about that. Nowhere does the Universal Declaration of Human Rights refer to abortion being a human rights question.
There will be a chance to return to these issues in Committee, but let me conclude. Noble Lords do not have to agree with my substantive opposition to the taking of the life of a child in the womb, up to and even during birth in the case of a child with a disability—which results, in Great Britain, in one abortion every three minutes, or around 40 in the two hours that we have been debating this Bill so far, or some 9 million since 1967—or my noting that if that legislation had applied in Northern Ireland, 100,000 people would not be alive today who were born because the legislation does not apply there. Noble Lords do not have to agree with my view about this to be concerned about the provisions in this Bill. As parliamentarians, we have a duty to pass laws that make sense, a duty to uphold the principles of subsidiarity, a duty to resist the making of laws on the hoof, a duty to insist on proper scrutiny and debate, a duty to contest ideology and sloganeering, and a duty to respect the people of Northern Ireland.
Lord Trimble (Con)
My Lords, I have a lot of sympathy with the suggestion made by the noble Lord that we could have benefited from a procedure that allowed a more thorough examination of the legislation. However, we are where we are, and we are dealing with legislation which at the moment has to be acknowledged to be necessary. It is necessary because, for a long time now, the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland has been vulnerable to a judicial review, and while that has not matured, she does need the provision that is in here to protect her against that.
Another factor that has been mentioned is with regard to doubt over the capacity of civil servants to take decisions in these matters, and here I just do not understand the problem. The Government of Ireland Act 1920 is quite clear: Section 8 puts executive powers in departments. Very clearly, the devolution is to departments. We could have a long argument about how this came about, because it flies against normal British practice, but this happened. There are hypotheses about it, but I am not going to go into the question of how it came about; I am simply saying that is the law, and that is the law that civil servants are exercising. Civil servants may find it embarrassing, but the law is as it is in the 1920 Act.
Clause 4 has been referred to, and I agree with a lot of the negative comments made with regard to it, but I have to say there is again another misunderstanding of what the law is. With regard to the law in Northern Ireland, the only substantive difference between the law in Northern Ireland and the law in England and Wales on abortion is the question of foetal abnormality. On all other matters the law is the same, in terms of the substance of the law. What is different is that the law in England is in statute law, but in Northern Ireland it is in common law: judicial decisions, including the Bourne decision in 1938. The problem then lies with the lack of a clear process and a way of proceeding. It is all very well to say, “Go and see your GP and he should arrange an abortion for you”. I do not think that that happens very often, but that is basically what should happen under our law. Rather than people having to go to England and spend thousands of pounds, they should be able to go to their GPs. Unfortunately, some doctors do not display the courage or constancy that is required. A further problem has been that various people put the health service under pressure to produce guidelines, which resulted in the Civil Service producing guidelines that were overly cautious and narrower than the law. Those guidelines should be dumped and we should have a clearer understanding of the law. Again, I do not want to spend too long on this point, although it has to be made. I am afraid that I disagree with some noble Lords—indeed, some noble Lords who are highly learned in the law—but I am confident that the situation is as I have stated it.
We should focus on the political problem in trying to resolve the difficulties. I agree with a lot of what my noble friend Lord Empey said. He gave a very clear description of the problems and of the way in which, unfortunately, the Government have not been able to progress matters in the way that we would like. However, that is understandable as we have so much on our plates at the moment. I can well understand someone saying to the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, “Don’t bring me any new problems”. I am sure that that is the sort of thing that is being said there, but it is unfortunate that we do not have a viable political process to bring about a restoration of devolution.
There would be difficulties with that, because it is quite clear that Sinn Féin does not want to see Stormont restored. We need to find a process analogous to that which happened way back in 1997, when Tony Blair became Prime Minister and made his first speech outside London, in Belfast, in which he said to the republican movement, “A settlement train is coming. I want you to be on the train, but it will be going with or without you”. That put pressure on Sinn Féin to come into the process. We now need to find a way of exerting that kind of pressure on Sinn Féin to get things moving, because it will not move without pressure. One likes to think that, once Brexit is resolved, it might be prepared to look at things, but I am beginning to have doubts about whether it will really want to do that.
So the question is: how do we exert the necessary pressure? I have put forward proposals on these matters on previous occasions, but nothing has happened, probably because those proposals were too ambitious. This time, I am going to the opposite extreme and will table an amendment later today which is as cautious as I can make it. In fact, I cannot think of anything that could be more cautious than what I am about to propose, but it might start something moving, which is what we need to happen.
Finally, there have been a number of unkind comments, particularly in the debate in the other place, about Northern Ireland MLAs drawing salaries when there is no Assembly for them to participate in. That is not their fault—unless they are Sinn Féin Members, in which case I think they have to bear some responsibility. They are trying to do their best in their own way, and I shall give a little plug for my own MLA in Lisburn, Robbie Butler. One of the things he is doing to try to keep politics alive is that normally, on a weekly basis, he transmits videos that deal with various issues, and they are very effective. In September, he issued a video on suicide awareness and it has had 34,000 viewings, which is incredible in the current context. I declare an interest in this matter. It is not just that Robbie is my MLA; he has had the good sense to employ my son in his office. I mention that to show that MLAs are doing the best that can be expected of them in the present circumstances. However, it is our responsibility, and particularly the Government’s responsibility, to put them back into the circumstances they ought to be in—in a functioning Assembly.
Lord Adonis
My Lords, it is a great privilege to follow the noble Lord, Lord Trimble. Given the success he brought to the office when he was First Minister of Northern Ireland, can I suggest that his son is immediately given a hereditary peerage so he can participate in these debates? This might enable him in quick succession to become First Minister of Northern Ireland.
I feel, as with some other noble Lords, like an interloper in this debate, particularly sandwiched as I am in the batting order between the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, and the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, both of whom played an extremely important role in the operation of the devolved institutions. However, the reason why I and others are speaking—and we do so without any hesitation—is precisely because there are no devolved institutions in Northern Ireland at the moment. We take a view, which we have a duty to take, that after two years where there has been no Assembly and no Government in Northern Ireland, we in Westminster have a duty to take an interest, including, I would say to the noble Lord, Lord Alton, in fundamental rights in Northern Ireland.
The point which is essential to grasp here—and it is also my comment on the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Morrow—is that if Northern Ireland wishes to exercise the prerogatives of devolution, it must operate devolved institutions. It is unacceptable for those of us in Westminster, who are ultimately responsible for the welfare of people in Northern Ireland, to be told that we should respect a devolution settlement which the political parties in Northern Ireland will not respect themselves. That is an unsustainable position.
I believe that is against our fundamental duties as Members of this House and the other place, and there can only be a short period of time for which we can tolerate it any longer. This Bill says until the end of next March—that is nearly three years in which the people of Northern Ireland will not have had an Assembly or a Government. Could the people of England tolerate for one moment the idea that this House would not be sitting for three years? I made a bit of a fuss before the summer at the idea we were not sitting for 10 weeks. The idea we would not sit for three years—that the other place would not sit for three years too—and would devolve to civil servants the task of running the country is utterly unthinkable, and that is the context in which we are dealing with these issues in Northern Ireland.
I say to the noble Lords, Lord Morrow and Lord Alton, if they think that the devolved institutions of Northern Ireland are required to protect fundamental rights, then those institutions must sit and legislate. If they do not sit and legislate, then we have a duty to legislate in their place, because there is no one else who can do it. We cannot tolerate a situation where there is no Government or legislature for Northern Ireland. If the only legislature available is this one, then we have a fundamental duty in that respect.
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, who is not in his place at the moment, said that we have to respect the devolution settlement and we do not have a right to legislate. I really do hesitate to take on a former Lord Chancellor, but my understanding of the constitution of this kingdom is that if this Parliament chooses, in its wisdom, to legislate, its law is supreme. Indeed, it has to be supreme because there is no other supreme body in this kingdom.
If we continue in this situation where the political parties in Northern Ireland—despite the strong advice being given by many of their wisest leaders in your Lordships’ House this afternoon—take the view that they are not prepared to operate those institutions, there must come a point, probably not far distant from now, where some form of direct rule will need to be instituted. The alternative to that is no legislature and no Government in Northern Ireland, which puts an intolerable pressure on civil servants, who cannot be expected to have to take these decisions without a proper, democratic set of institutions.
Baroness Butler-Sloss
I want to ask the noble Lord whether he thinks he was right in saying that this Parliament in Westminster could actually pass legislation. I think we would have to take over Northern Ireland and go beyond devolution when there is power for us to do that. But I think in the absence of that we could not, today for instance, pass a law.
Lord Adonis
My Lords, I absolutely defer to the noble and learned Baroness. If she says that that is the case then she is obviously right, but there clearly are procedures by which we can exercise our sovereignty—the only question is what those procedures are.
I thought that the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Empey, was quite brilliant. I have been to Northern Ireland several times in recent months to acquaint myself with the situation because of the debates taking place on Brexit, but also partly because the only way of understanding what the views of the parties and politicians across the spectrum in Northern Ireland are is to go there. It is not possible to get them here because, unfortunately, Sinn Féin does not take its seats, nor is it possible to be guided by the views of the Northern Ireland Assembly because it is not meeting. It is quite a commentary on our affairs that literally the only way of understanding what is going on in Northern Ireland, if you sit here in the Parliament in Westminster, is to go to Belfast and meet the parties.
When I went to Belfast, I had extremely constructive discussions with the parties in Stormont. It was the first time I had been to Stormont; its grandeur is quite extraordinary. These are institutions very much in the image of Westminster. What really struck me while I was holding meetings in one of the committee rooms, where I am told that the Executive used to meet, was that in the Senate Chamber was meeting the inquiry into the renewable heat scandal, which the noble Lord, Lord Empey, referred to. If a scandal on that scale had happened here in London, by now there would be cases in the courts and serious legal proceedings. The noble Lord is absolutely right to say that the fact so little is known about those affairs here and we take so little interest in them is, I am afraid, something of a condemnation of us. However, if these affairs continue in Northern Ireland, I believe we will have no choice whatever but to become involved.
This is Second Reading and we will deal with Committee in due course. I will put down a marker for three issues that seem essential for us to address ourselves to in Committee, since there is no Assembly in Northern Ireland. The first is the issue of a mediator and getting serious talks started that could lead to a new Government in Northern Ireland. The Minister, in his excellent introductory speech, said that “intensive talks” are necessary. He also said—I noted this down as he said it—that,
“we will not be waiting until March”,
to get intensive talks going. I take those to be significant statements. Could he, in his summing up, return specifically to the issue of whether the Government will as a matter of urgency proceed, with agreement among the parties in Northern Ireland, with the appointment of a mediator? It seems an essential next step since nothing else appears to be producing momentum. I have amendments tabled in respect of that, but I do not intend to press them. I am looking for assurance from the Minister that the Government will move in this regard.
Secondly, on abortion and equal marriage, the situation as I see it is as follows. It is a judgment that will be held by a majority in this House and in the House of Commons that the current law in Northern Ireland is not consistent with fundamental human rights. Other noble Lords might take a different view and some of them have spoken in this debate, but it is my view that that would be the judgment of a majority. Indeed, that clearly was the judgment of the majority in the House of Commons. I expect that it will be the judgment of the majority in this House too. The only point I make in this regard is this: if the people of Northern Ireland want to take a different view through their elected representatives, those elected representatives must meet, because there will come a point, which I believe is not far distant, where, if they do not meet, we will be obliged to legislate.
Thirdly, there is the issue of Brexit. What has taken me to Belfast, Dublin and the border territories in recent months are discussions on this very vexed issue of the Irish border and how it is possible for us to Brexit while not having a hard border. It seems to me that we need some mechanism in the coming months, given that there is not an Assembly and an Executive in Northern Ireland, where we—this Parliament in Westminster—can receive the views of the elected representatives of Northern Ireland, not just from the one party that takes its seats in the House of Commons. In my amendments on the Order Paper, I suggest that the way of doing that would be to have a special sitting of the Northern Ireland Assembly without there being an Executive, purely for the purpose of debating Brexit and reaching a resolution that could then be submitted to the Parliament here. My understanding from his speech is that the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, might have a more ingenious suggestion to make later on in Committee as to how the opinions of the parties in Northern Ireland might be taken in respect to Brexit. I will absolutely defer to him if he has such a suggestion to make. I believe it is important in the coming debates on Brexit that we are able to take account in some formal way of the views of the political parties and their elected representatives in Northern Ireland. In the absence of any better solution to this problem, I suggest that there should be a special sitting of the Assembly.
Lord Alderdice (LD)
My Lords, other noble Lords have already commented on the fact that, yet again, we have fast-track legislation in respect of Northern Ireland. In no way, however, could this be described an emergency situation. Time after time I have advised the Government in this House from these Benches that the Secretary of State was operating ultra vires and that civil servants could not take the decisions that needed to be taken. The last time was in the debate on the Budget on 18 July. It is not just regrettable: it is becoming a really bad habit to keep bringing forward fast-track legislation when the problems have been known well in advance. It is almost as though the Government do not seriously want to discuss and debate these matters in detail, because there is no other excuse for what is being done.
Having said that, I am, of course, glad to see that the positions of the Secretary of State and the civil servants are being regularised in respect of departmental functions and appointments. However, that addresses only the legal problem and in the short term. It does not address the political problem, which is the reason for us being in this difficult situation. Noble Lords on the other side have described the responsibility that Sinn Féin bears for being in this situation, but it is not only a question of Sinn Féin.
Let us reflect on the fact that Martin McGuinness, who played a very valuable and constructive role with Dr Ian Paisley—Lord Bannside—resigned over the question of the First Minister’s handling of the RHI debacle. As time has gone on, whatever responsibility some members of Sinn Féin and Sinn Féin Ministers may have, it is absolutely clear that what was happening under the aegis of the First Minister, Arlene Foster, was utterly unacceptable and reprehensible. The report that is going to come out will be devastatingly bad, and so it should be. What is worse is that Arlene Foster had the experience of stepping in for Peter Robinson when he, as First Minister, stepped back from his role briefly but very appropriately on a matter of much less public expenditure import. She could have done the same, and we might well have not had the suspension of the Assembly.
On the question of whether we need a mediator, the parties were perfectly capable of getting together and coming to an agreement. The problem was that Mrs Foster was clearly not able to deliver that agreement when it went back to her own party. There is no evidence that getting an agreement through a mediator or otherwise is actually going to deliver, because it is not only one party that is a problem here: it is two parties. That is why, in addition to saying to the Government, “You have a legal problem with the Secretary of State and possibly civil servants operating ultra vires,” we need to say, “You have a political problem and you need to address that by an election”. All this Bill does from that point of view is postpone the date of that election, because it would not be acceptable to go to any form of direct rule at any stage without an election. All we are doing is postponing it.
I accept that November, December and January are not very good months for an election. I also accept that we might be preoccupied with other things by the time February and March come round, so I understand the provisions, but this is not the first time that the warning has come. This is not the first time I have asked for an election. Will the Minister, in his response, indicate why it has not been possible to have an election during any of the period of time when the election should have been held?
We may well come to the situation that the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, has mentioned: we go through this period, there is still no agreement; we have an election, there is still no agreement. What happens then? The point that the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, needs to pay attention to is that we do not simply return to Westminster sovereignty. Why? Because we have an internationally binding treaty with the Republic of Ireland. That means that if there were to be any change or any development, it would have to be in discussions with the Irish Government. I think it unlikely that they are going to agree to a simple matter of direct rule. I think it much more likely that you would move to a form of direct rule in which there would be some clear acknowledgement of input from the Irish Government. That has been the trajectory for the last 25 or 30 years and I think it is the much more likely way out of this problem if the Northern Ireland political parties are not able to find a way of moving. That is the trajectory: this makes it a transition rather than a settlement. Much more could be said about that and I trust that we will be able to do so when we have the opportunity of a wider debate.
On Clause 4, the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, has pointed out, I think correctly, that much could be done by way of guidance under the current legal system. I well recall, as a young psychiatrist, having to do assessments on women needing abortions for reasons of their mental health, but that was tightened once people said, “We need some kind of guidance”. It would be entirely possible, legal and appropriate for the Secretary of State to look at the guidance that is being issued on the current law. But there is another matter that could be dealt with entirely legally, and I ask the Minister to respond to this if possible, if not this evening then at another time. What is to stop the Secretary of State, on these two issues that have been referred to, putting proposals forward for referendums, so that we would not be dependent on particular political parties in hock to minorities, or on opinion polls? We could ask the people of Northern Ireland whether they want to make a change to the abortion law or the law on gay marriage. That would not be undermining devolution but saying that, if elected representatives do not put themselves in a position to fulfil devolution, we do not ignore the people of Northern Ireland, nor human rights law, but we ask them to give their view. Is there anything to stop the Secretary of State making a recommendation that there should be referendums—non-binding, but nevertheless advisory referendums?
These are two issues on which there is deep disagreement between Sinn Féin and the DUP regarding the resumption of devolution. Therefore, it is actually important that they be addressed, whether by ourselves, the people of Northern Ireland, or otherwise. We are all preoccupied with Brexit now but I tell the House that, one way or another, elected representatives in Northern Ireland must get the matter resolved within a short period after Brexit. I know that Sinn Féin is keen to see itself in government in the south more than in the north, but when the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, asked what can be done that would induce Sinn Féin back into devolution, I can see a situation very clearly. If the minority Government in the south were to fall, if there were to be an election and Sinn Féin found itself in coalition Government in the south, which is entirely possible, despite what is said by the leaders of Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael, I can guarantee that you will have devolution at the drop of a hat, because Sinn Féin would very much like to be in government on both sides of the border at the same time.
This is still a moving picture. It may seem that watching politics in Northern Ireland is like watching paint dry, but eventually paint does dry, and we will come back to this issue again.
Viscount Brookeborough (CB)
My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice. I have been scratching out bits and pieces that I was going to say and I was going to scratch out the bit about a referendum, but then I thought I would support it, since it had not come up. One of the problems we have in Northern Ireland is that we have a lot of politicians who say they are speaking for other people, but when you go around the country it is remarkable how few people they are really speaking for when they become hard line and morally demanding. That is all I shall say. Perhaps a referendum would at least settle it one way or another.
I welcome the Bill, although I think its scope is not nearly wide enough and it is very late in the day. The question has been asked: why it is an emergency; why urgent? The part of the Explanatory Memorandum entitled “Why is Fast-tracking necessary?” says “to provide clarity” and to “clarify the powers”. That does not mean that it is urgent. It means that the Government have sat on their backside and have done nothing since the Assembly crashed. Many of us in Northern Ireland would have said that that was incredibly predictable anyway. There seems to be very little forward thinking. If we look back for a moment at what happened in the Second World War under the coalition Government—I was not around—there was a single aim: to win the war, which they did. What happened afterwards? The whole thing burst apart. The Chuckle brothers, for once, had a single aim: to stop the violence. They stopped the violence and wanted power sharing. They got it, but what happens after a Government or a person achieve their aim? They make friends with their enemies to do so, but can they really work together in peace? There is a flaw there. I am not against devolved power or devolved organisation and co-operation, but it is difficult to believe that it will go on for ever. Therefore, many of us thought that it was fairly predictable.
There are people who think that the Assembly—I am not running it down—was the be-all and end-all of everything, and that all the decisions were made because they flowed out of it. They were not, it was not easy and it was commendable that people were trying to make it work. It is by no means a perfect system. It made government very difficult, and it made life in Northern Ireland very difficult. You could not get things done because there were contradictory signals the whole time. The Government have ignored these fundamental facts for far too long, and there has been little forward planning. When you plan forward, we were taught in the military—I know this is getting military—to carry out an appreciation, but to make fundamental assumptions and base those assumptions on fact. If you do not refer to them, you begin to run into trouble. The Government should refer to them more.
In addition, lately, the Prime Minister and the Taoiseach seem to have taken back seats—they have hardly engaged at all on this issue. Their predecessors were much more active and provided more leadership. We were grateful for it, and it provided a great deal more impetus to getting people together, without a shadow of a doubt—let alone a mediator, which is for other people. I am pretty even on that. In future, we should demand much more involvement and determination from the Government and Westminster. The only democratically accountable body that we, as citizens in Northern Ireland, currently have is here, because the Assembly is not sitting. I also realise that we do not want direct rule; however, inasmuch as we are making laws today to enable certain things to happen, why are we not passing legislation to enable Ministers to be appointed from here for a short, specified length of time? That would not be direct rule; that would be interim management of the situation. I think it is quite a good idea, but others have thought about it and binned it a hundred times. It would be time-limited in the same way that the Bill is. We would then avoid this whole issue of Civil Service responsibility and power, and judicial reviews. This is obviously a minefield and it is very difficult. The Civil Service is outstanding, but we are pressurising it into making decisions on which there will be comeback. It would also mean that policy introduction would be current, not retrospective, as it tends to be at the moment, taking a long time.
Perhaps all this lack of attention, lack of action and legislation with limited scope is intended not to upset the two main parties—the DUP and Sinn Féin—and therefore achieve a return to Stormont. Again, I say to the Secretary of State and the Government—who say, “This is our aim”—that of course it is their aim. They say, “This is our wish, we believe it will happen”, to which I say, “Face the fundamental facts”. Enough people have pointed them out today and I certainly do not need to go into all that detail.
Personally, I believe that Sinn Féin has no intention of going back until after Brexit and possibly after later discussions further down the Brexit road. It is waiting for the wheels to fall off this wagon and it wants to pick something up. If you were in Sinn Féin’s situation and wanted a united Ireland, what would you do? You would do exactly what it is doing. We should not be wasting dividend or any bonuses on Sinn Féin at the moment. You can use them only once and if you use them and do not get what you want, the next time round you have to leave it the heirlooms. We should not be going down that route. As has been said, the DUP has its own problems. It is not entirely one-sided but it appears that in that context Sinn Féin will say no.
The people of Northern Ireland, from all communities, feel totally frustrated and demoralised, with little hope of any progress. Somebody said—it may have been the noble Lord, Lord Empey—that people are not happy and everyone thinks that devolution and the Assembly are wonderful. I can tell your Lordships that people in Northern Ireland do not say that, because devolution has not worked for them, and that is that.
One has to remember that the vast majority of people—Catholic, Protestant, Muslim or whatever—are for peace, for a quiet time and for their own government. However, added to that is the number of people from not only Great Britain but Northern Ireland who served in the Armed Forces, and now our veterans are being hounded, when every one of them volunteered to serve—to lay down their lives if necessary—for our peace. Let us not squander all this by pussyfooting round those who brought about the Troubles. We need—from the Government especially—leadership, determination and legislation with the required scope until we get our Assembly and Executive back, but it has to work properly.
Lord Rogan (UUP)
My Lords, I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this debate but, like others, I wish it was unnecessary. As the noble Lord, Lord Duncan, said, most of us would prefer not to be here today.
Earlier this year we celebrated the 20th anniversary of the Belfast agreement. Several noble Lords present in the Chamber played key roles in that remarkable achievement on Good Friday 1998, and should be very proud of what they did. But I am sure that, like me, they can barely believe that, two decades on, Northern Ireland does not have a functioning Government. Yesterday in another place, the Chancellor of the Exchequer delivered his Budget Statement. Together with welcome funding for a Belfast city region deal, Mr Hammond announced an extra £320 million for the Northern Ireland Executive for 2020-21. However, as things stand tonight, it is difficult to envisage local Ministers being in place to spend it even then.
Several noble Lords mentioned the RHI inquiry, which has exposed levels of dysfunctionality inside the last Northern Ireland Executive that are shocking in the extreme. For month after month, we have heard tales of unelected DUP special advisers wielding considerably more power and authority at Stormont than most of their political masters. Last week evidence was produced which appeared to show that at least one Sinn Féin/IRA Minister was acting under instructions—not from special advisers but from senior members of the IRA, if not the IRA Army Council itself. It is little wonder that disillusionment with the political process in Northern Ireland is so high. The people of Northern Ireland deserve much better.
It was 25 years ago when the UDA murdered seven people in the Rising Sun bar in Greysteel; another person died from his injuries. Last week we commemorated the 25th anniversary of the IRA bomb on the Shankill Road that claimed nine victims. Three further terrorist attacks took place in the seven days between the Shankill and the Greysteel atrocities, with yet another six people losing their lives.
Make no mistake: we are never going back to that. We have come so far since 1998. Tourists are flocking to Northern Ireland in record numbers. In recent years the Province has gained a global reputation as a prime location for film production and high-profile sporting events. Next year Royal Portrush will host the Open golf championship for the first time since 1951. Tickets for all four days of competitive play have sold out—the first time this has happened in the 148-year history of the event—and the first ball has not yet been struck. I might add that I own a holiday home in Portrush, and I have been inundated with requests to let it over the Open period.
We have so much in our favour, but we continue to lack a functional, proactive and accountable Government. It makes me very angry that we have found ourselves in this situation. At times it also leaves me feeling a little embarrassed. Here we are in the mother of Parliaments, where I am immensely proud to serve as a Deputy Speaker. I am honoured to travel on a fairly regular basis to meet parliamentarians in other parts of the world to discuss democracy. But when my hosts ask me what form of elected Administration we have in Northern Ireland, I have to tell them that we have none.
My sense of discomfort is not eased by the substance of the Bill before us today. I too have tremendous respect for the Northern Ireland Civil Service. Its staff serve with great skill, knowledge and commitment—but their task has been made almost impossible by the current absence of political direction. The Permanent Secretaries I have spoken to have no desire to be placed in the position in which they find themselves. They want a functioning Northern Ireland Executive to be formed. But, as the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, said, we are where we are, and although this legislation is far from ideal, I understand why Her Majesty’s Government have deemed it necessary—for now. I sincerely hope that it will not stay on the statute book for long.
I end my remarks with a request which I ask the Minister to convey on my behalf. Everyone in your Lordships’ House will be fully aware of the excellent work done by Marie Curie to support those living with terminal illness and their families. Marie Curie has been campaigning to reform the special rules determining eligibility for personal independence payments for terminally ill people. There are special rules for terminal illness under PIP, which allow terminally ill people to access their payments quickly and without a face-to-face assessment. But only those with a diagnosis of six months or less to live are eligible to apply under these rules.
Experts from across the medical community have said that this is too restrictive. The difficulty in predicting life expectancy for many terminal illnesses means that legitimate claimants are being excluded from applying for PIP under the special rules. In June an independent review of PIP recommended that the six-month life expectancy criterion determining eligibility under the terminal illness rules be removed. However, in the absence of an Executive at Stormont, the changes required have not been actioned. The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, Karen Bradley, has talked about allowing Northern Ireland departments to make decisions in the public interest. As Joan McEwan from Marie Curie Northern Ireland recently said:
“There can be no doubt that creating a fairer and more compassionate PIP system for terminally-ill people in Northern Ireland falls into this category”.
I agree, and I humbly invite the Minister to take Joan’s words on board.
Lord Lexden (Con)
My Lords, it is almost a year since the noble Lord, Lord Rogan, and I both had the honour to be appointed Deputy Speakers in your Lordships’ House. I have to say that he at once acquired a position of efficiency that I am still striving towards.
One of the many serious matters on which we have been reflecting today is the fact that for the best part of two years public services in Northern Ireland have been under the control of civil servants unaccountable to elected representatives, the first time that this has happened in any part of our country in the modern era. A visitor from another planet might perhaps wonder why those elected representatives serving as Ministers in the Northern Ireland Office cannot assume control temporarily, with additional appointments being made to cope with the greatly increased work. The answer that our political leaders would immediately give to such an impertinent visitor is of course that that would violate the devolution settlement. It is the settled conviction of the leaders of the main political parties that any amendment or modification of the devolved settlement in Northern Ireland, however slight or temporary, would bring disaster down upon us. Such dogmatic rigidity is unusual in the mainstream of British politics, where pragmatism normally reigns to the benefit of our country.
The reality is that the Government are content that public services in Northern Ireland should remain for the time being in the hands of unaccountable civil servants. How fortunate we are that their integrity and impartiality are admired so widely and justifiably. They certainly deserve the clarification and confirmation of their powers that the Bill will provide so that they can continue to discharge their responsibilities successfully.
No new policy can be created, we have been firmly told; the Secretary of State said last week that the Bill was,
“about allowing civil servants to make decisions that have been part of a policy that has previously been agreed”.—[Official Report, Commons, 24/10/18; col. 300.]
That means, of course, policy agreed by the Northern Ireland Executive before it went out of business nearly two years ago. Time moves on and circumstances change, but policy remains in the state in which the Executive left it nearly two years ago. Yet policy needs to advance, desperately and urgently, in those long-established services on which people depend for their daily health and well-being: health, education, housing and welfare. My noble friend Lord Empey, one of my greatest friends in this House, has spoken with passion on several occasions, including this afternoon in what the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, rightly described as a brilliant speech, about the appalling NHS waiting lists in the Province. My noble friend has suggested that the Northern Ireland Office should assume responsibility on a purely temporarily basis to tackle this crisis, a point endorsed by other noble Lords. “Oh no,” comes the reply, “that would breach the devolution settlement”, as if it were holy writ. Can it be right that our fellow countrymen and women in Ulster should suffer such distress—there are many other examples, some of which have been mentioned today—when a remedy could be supplied by the Government, who have the ultimate responsibility for the entire country?
In all this, one very important point tends to be overlooked: the Northern Ireland Assembly is the Province’s upper tier of local government as well as a devolved legislative body. One of the last acts of the Stormont Parliament of 1921 to 1972 was to make provision for the transfer of all the main local government services, on the very sensible grounds that Northern Ireland was not of sufficient size to warrant a range of county and county borough councils as well as Stormont itself. Today only very minor powers are exercised by Northern Ireland’s lower tier of local government, its district councils. Does Northern Ireland really need to be completely deprived of democratic oversight of all its main local government services because an Executive cannot be formed to exercise devolved legislative powers?
The creation of some form of interim committee structure in the Northern Ireland Assembly elected last year has been urged on several occasions by my noble friend Lord Cormack—who is not in his seat at the moment—drawing on his experiences as a distinguished former chairman of the Northern Ireland Select Committee in another place. The fertile mind of my noble friend Lord Trimble might perhaps also be moving in this direction. He has spoken, as he reminded us, of various possibilities in the past and we look forward to hearing more from him later. Some such arrangement would help rescue local government from the democratic limbo into which it was cast when the Executive collapsed.
Two issues of human rights, about which many people are now deeply concerned, loom large in this debate. I have frequently called for the extension of same-sex marriage to Northern Ireland—an issue which the noble Lord, Lord Hayward, has recently associated himself with by introducing a Bill in your Lordships’ House, and in which the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, is now taking a welcome interest. I hold to the straightforward unionist principle that the same basic rights should apply throughout our country. On same-sex marriage, opinion polls in Northern Ireland are overwhelmingly in favour of bringing Northern Ireland into line with the rest of the country. The Assembly voted for it before its collapse. Would it be appropriate to seek a further vote in the Assembly elected last year to provide the strongest possible basis on which to proceed in this Parliament in the absence of devolved government? Should abortion—on which feelings run so high in all parts of the country—be treated in the same manner or, as the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, suggested, should there be a referendum? These points need serious consideration.
I make one further point. How much better things would be if we had a common core of human rights throughout our unitary state—our “precious union”, as Mrs May referred to it. That would be a matter, perhaps, on which a Select Committee of your Lordships’ House could usefully deliberate. I reach one simple conclusion: the successful government of Northern Ireland in the conditions that exist today, and which we must expect to endure, requires rather more imaginative policy-making than is currently being practised.
Lord Maginnis of Drumglass (Ind UU)
My Lords, as someone who contributed actively to the creation of the Belfast agreement in 1998, it is galling to find myself standing here today endeavouring to find the slightest merit in this belated effort to compensate for the failure of the Northern Ireland Assembly. The harsh reality is that this Bill is but a camouflaged attempt to humour those who do little more than continue the attempts of the Provisional IRA, which was defeated in 1994 at huge cost—not least in the lives of hundreds of innocent men, women and children over the previous 25 years. I refer, of course, to Sinn Féin.
On top of that we see from the results of the recent presidential elections in the Republic the diminishing standing of Sinn Féin overall. It would be bad enough if we merely had Sinn Féin trying to “legalise” the Irish language—which has been financed and sponsored successfully for as long as I can remember—but the idea of creating the basis for pro rata usage in our courts, councils, Civil Service and the like is an extravagance our 1.8 million population simply cannot afford or facilitate.
The long-overdue compensation for abused children still awaits settlement. We should be getting our priorities right and I would like immediate reassurance in that respect. Remember that the victims are ageing and dying, so this is a matter of urgency—or should be. On the subject of compensation for injury, how does a person injured in what has become known as “Bloody Sunday” receive around £500,000 in damages while I do not know of a single IRA victim—soldier or civilian—who has received anything comparable? Is there a delusion in the Government that they can buy stability?
This Bill appears to provide for the replacement of the democratic process by an unaccountable Civil Service. Let me give an example of that unaccountability from personal experience, and I begin by reminding noble Lords that the Civil Service is composed of some who are just as bigoted as, albeit publicly accountable, politicians.
About five years ago, I applied to have my driving licence renewed and, being diabetic, I provided a letter from my GP as to my fitness. However a Mr Paul Duffy rejected my application, unless I sent all my medical records to him. I appealed the decision but sought agreement to bring my medical records to the appropriate doctor and then bring them home again. I was told, “We don’t employ a doctor in the department. Your medical records will be retained safely in my office”.
Having had 10 attempts made to assassinate me between 1970 and 1974, there was no way I was going to risk my safety by providing details of my routine visits to my diabetes and cancer clinics, so I again renewed my appeal. I cleared myself on that basis with my insurance company but had to wait 22 months to get my licence. It did not end there. Being notified at last, by Paul Duffy, that my new licence was available, I collected it from him on 6 May—note that date—2015. Mr Duffy, it turned out, watched me drive off with my new licence in my pocket, and immediately phoned the police to report having seen me driving without a licence. When the police called to see me that evening, we discovered that the licence I had received earlier that day had been post-dated to 7 May. Technically, I had been conned. I had no licence until the following day. To cut that long story short, the judge who heard my case threw it out in about two minutes.
The sequel, however, has a relevance to this Bill in so far as I decided to complain to the departmental head, Peter May, who curtly informed me by letter that he had the utmost confidence in Paul Duffy. Peter May has subsequently been transferred as head of the Northern Ireland Department of Justice. I apologise to noble Lords for having had to recount this experience, but this is the sort of administrator we are being asked to impose on Northern Ireland—and it does not end there. David Stirling was Permanent Secretary of the department at the time of the RHI debacle and we have seen his dire performance at the RHI inquiry. He now describes himself as head of the Civil Service in Northern Ireland. Who actually appointed him and to whom does he, and will he, report?
There is so much room for potential disaster in this proposed Bill, but perhaps my major point should be to ask on how many occasions the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland has actually met and consulted the Northern Ireland Peers who sit in this Chamber. They are directly and indirectly the people who best understand Northern Ireland, both pre and post the Belfast agreement.
My final point must be what I will call the Stella Creasy aberration. I am one who cannot accept that “rights” should have priority over what is “right”. I am ashamed that Great Britain panders to a reluctant mother’s pride or social convenience, so that we so casually relegate a potential life to the incinerator. As the father of four and the grandfather of seven I have always believed that life is sacred. It is why I, with the late Enoch Powell, voted for the abolition of the death penalty when it was not something the grass roots sought. There is enough potential for disaster in this Bill without adding something that is so offensive to a majority across the traditions in Northern Ireland.
Baroness O’Loan (CB)
I declare an interest. My husband is the chair of arc21, the organisation created by six district councils in Northern Ireland responsible for addressing the problem of waste disposal, and made the planning application that led ultimately to the Buick judgment, which has been referred to repeatedly both in this House and in the other place, and is one of the reasons for the legislation we are debating today.
I am sure that everybody in your Lordships’ House regrets the situation that prevails in Northern Ireland. It really is profoundly difficult—almost two years with no legislature, and things are challenging. Members of the other place and of this House have articulated the various issues which are stalled as a result of the situation, not least the major infrastructure projects, the commencement of which would provide employment, therefore contributing to the economy—an economy that is seriously depleted. I see no purpose in repeating that list. It is a difficulty compounded even more by the fact that there is no legislature and no Executive to consult on matters relating to Brexit, as the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, said. Brexit is probably regarded by the people of Northern Ireland as the greatest hazard they face at present, for a variety of reasons. I shall come back to that in a moment.
However, I want to address a matter raised by the noble Viscount, Lord Brookeborough, who is not in his place, but for whom I have the greatest respect. He said that there must be an end to the hounding of veterans. I have to say that there is no hounding of veterans. There are investigations in Northern Ireland into unsolved killings. When somebody is suspected of having been involved in a killing, it is right and proper, and due process in law, that those persons be investigated. That is what is happening. I personally have been involved in the investigation of matters where both military and former RUC personnel have been involved. I know that those who serve in the forces do a very difficult job, and I speak from the perspective of one whose brother served in Northern Ireland in the 1980s, and whose nephew, aged 18, went to Iraq in the British Armed Forces and lost his leg six months later right up to the groin, and suffered multiple other injuries. I speak as one whose other nephew has served in Her Majesty’s forces for coming up to 22 years in Iraq, Afghanistan and other places, so I am not in any way attempting to attack Her Majesty’s forces. In a country which has had the experiences of Northern Ireland, however, it is important that there is no abrogation of the rule of law. It is profoundly important that we adhere to the rule of law.
This measure is clearly seen as necessary to address the lacuna which has been referred to repeatedly. It is legitimate to question the rushing through of this Bill without thought of the normal discussion, analysis and scrutiny necessary, particularly in the delicate situation which is life in Northern Ireland today. The Select Committee on the Constitution rightly raised various issues, not least the breadth of the power which would be afforded to Ministers and civil servants, the lack of clear lines of accountability and the retrospective effect of the Clause 3 provisions, which were described as “irregular and concerning”. It went on to say that,
“a Bill with such characteristics being fast-tracked through its legislative stages in Parliament is undesirable”.
The Minister referred to the fact that it was being fast-tracked. He did not, however, explain why it is being fast-tracked at such a pace. Our peace reposes on the basis of the Good Friday agreement—in our divided way, some call it the Belfast agreement—and the consequential legislation. The Northern Ireland Act 1998, in which I am sure many noble Lords played a part, was an Act designed to make new provision for the Government of Northern Ireland, for the purpose of implementing the Good Friday/Belfast agreement. The consequential legislation enabled a complex, multi-faceted construct, which was designed as best possible to ensure the delivery of the principles of the Good Friday agreement. The noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, referred to the involvement of another state in the creation of that agreement. The construct we now have was very hard won, and trust grew gradually and sometimes painfully over the years—particularly 1998 to 2007. Interestingly, trust grew despite the suspension of the devolved institution from October 2002 until 8 May 2007. We were still able to work—myself included as police ombudsman—to enable the constitutional process to have its full impact in Northern Ireland. That was difficult, challenging and, on occasion, dangerous work. Policing and justice powers were devolved only on 12 April 2010. It is all very new and must be treated with great care.
There may be a perception in your Lordships’ House, and in the wider community, that Northern Ireland is solved. That it is far from solved is demonstrated by the fact that, once again, we are in a position in which there is no mechanism to run our devolved Government. It is also demonstrated by the fact that during 2016-17 —the last year for which we have security statistics—there were five security-related deaths, 61 shooting incidents, 29 bombing incidents, 66 casualties from paramilitary- style assaults and 28 paramilitary-style shootings, and 75 kilograms of explosives and 2,635 rounds of ammunition were seized. That was the largest quantity of explosives seized since 2006.
It is not all over, and I do not say that with anything other than distress. I personally have suffered in the Troubles; my family, many of my friends and many of the people I worked with have suffered. As police ombudsman, I sat and listened to story after story. I remember one family who came in where the 11 year-old daughter had been left with her two brothers, Rory and Gerard, who were 18 and 22. Their parents had gone out to mass. Róisín had been celebrating her 11th birthday when the gunmen came in and shot her two brothers dead in front of her. You would have to have a heart of stone not to care about things like this, so we need to remember that the situation can change very rapidly in Northern Ireland.
We need to be conscious that, when the talk about the border is so challenging and when no one really knows what is going to happen, this is a difficult time. I do not want to exaggerate, but it is a dangerous time. I have driven across the border twice in the past couple of weeks and will again next week. As you cross the border, you remember what it was like when there were checkpoints and things like that. I do not envisage military checkpoints, but look at the border between Canada and America, and borders between the European Union and some of its non-member states—you see queues and time spent. We do not need all that could happen to us—the social, economic and political cost —were it to come to some kind of hard border in Northern Ireland.
It is in the context of the uncertainties of Brexit and the failure to address the problems in Northern Ireland that the Government are taking powers to themselves. I grant that they are limited powers and in a statute that will have effect for only a limited period, but to many it will seem like shadow direct rule.
I make no comment on the extension of the time for the appointment of an Executive, other than to observe that the power to extend the period seems to have a maximum life of up to August 2019, by which time we will have been without proper governance for two years and eight months. I know why our two main elected parties, the DUP and Sinn Féin, say that they cannot go into government, but the people of Northern Ireland are being badly failed by the stand-off. It is surely incumbent on those parties, and consistent with democracy, that they lay aside these issues temporarily, go into government and use democratic means to resolve those problems as best they can—that is what democracies do.
We want government decisions made by elected politicians, not by spads on the one side—as we have heard in relation to the RHI agreement—or on the other at the headquarters of Sinn Féin, Connolly House, as I think the noble Lord, Lord Rogan, pointed out. The Executive collapsed because Martin McGuinness resigned from the Government in the wake of the RHI crisis—the green energy scheme. That is now going to cost taxpayers up to £490 million. The RHI scheme has been the subject of a public inquiry, very ably chaired by Sir Patrick Coghlin, who has heard testimony from those involved that was dreadful to listen to. It is astonishing to see who is following the RHI inquiry broadcasts in Northern Ireland. I know of women who watched it intently while doing their ironing. Never before has a public inquiry attracted quite so much interest among the general population.
Our most senior civil servants have said that spads “were in charge” following the reestablishment of the Assembly in 2007. We know that civil servants did not do ordinary things like keeping minutes of meetings, and were not informed about issues of which the spads were aware. We know that the Minister who presented the renewable heat incentive scheme regulations had not even read them when she brought them to the Assembly and asked MLAs to vote on them. So it goes on, but the story has been told and Sir Patrick will report, so there is no more excuse—it is dealt with. Now is the time for the DUP and Sinn Féin to go back into government, fight for the cause of Northern Ireland together and ensure proper governance.
I want to ask the Minister again: what is the urgency that required this Bill to pass through the other place in one day and through your Lordships’ House in such a rush? This is not an emergency situation. There is no sudden threat to the economy. There is no immediate terrorist threat. What is the reason for the haste?
The Act enables Northern Ireland civil servants to exercise departmental functions if it is in the public interest to do so, and will confer on the Secretary of State a duty to publish guidance on the exercise of functions, including the principles to be taken into account in deciding whether to exercise a function. The Secretary of State made it clear in the other place, as the Minister has, that this Bill was introduced because,
“we have to enable public services to continue to be delivered in Northern Ireland”.
The Secretary of State said that the Bill,
“will allow decisions to be taken by civil servants who have felt unable to do so since the Buick appeal was heard. We need to make sure that those civil servants can take those decisions, but this is not about their making major policy decisions or becoming lawmakers”.—[Official Report, Commons, 24/10/18; col. 381.]
So far, so good, and that was what the Minister was telling us, until he came to Clause 4, which goes way beyond the position that the Government have taken. In a situation in where those who voted to amend the Bill in this way hold no seats representing anyone in Northern Ireland, where neither Conservatives nor Labour have an MP, there can be no proper accountability for decisions like that. Abortion—I place it on the record yet again—is not a human right. There is a right to life; there is no right to kill the unborn child in the womb. There has been no declaration of incompatibility in courts in Northern Ireland. Somebody said that we do not have a common set of human rights, but we do; they are established under the European Convention on Human Rights, and we are signatories.
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
I am sorry to interrupt the noble Baroness. Although this is not a time-limited debate, might she consider concluding her remarks pretty quickly, given that the guide time is six minutes?
Baroness O'Loan
I am coming to an end.
Most recently, in June the noble Lord, Lord O’Shaughnessy, gave me an assurance that the intention of the Government and the NIO,
“is to restore a power-sharing agreement and arrangement in Northern Ireland so that it will be up to the people of Northern Ireland and their elected officials to decide on abortion policy”.—[Official Report, 6/6/18; col. 1312.]
It cannot be compatible with the rule of law for a Secretary of State to be required by their Government and legislature to issue guidance which is not consistent with the law of the land. That is what would happen if the Bill were given effect. I have every sympathy with calls to give effect to the findings of the public inquiries into historical institutional abuse and hyponatremia-related deaths, and to give help to victims of the Troubles. However, I have not heard anyone advocating for Clause 4. I have not heard anyone advocating for direct rule, as suggested by other noble Lords; that is not the answer. We see Sinn Féin looking towards a referendum on a united Ireland, a profoundly important issue which does not commend itself to many of our population. We need action to bring the people together and that is what I ask of the Secretary of State.
Baroness Stroud (Con)
My Lords, I add my voice to those of noble Lords who expressed their sadness that we are, once again, in this place. Given the time, I will concentrate on Clause 4, which was introduced to this Bill by amendment in the other place. I question the clause for two main reasons. First, it represents a serious overreaching of the powers of Westminster. Secondly, as the House has heard, the insertion of this amendment is a misinterpretation of the role of the courts in relation to changing primary legislation.
Clause 4 represents a serious overreaching of the powers of Westminster and is not sensitive to the current reality of Northern Ireland politics. If we were in a position where there was no chance of devolved government being restored, it might be appropriate for Westminster to intervene on sensitive devolved matters. However, as this House has repeatedly expressed this afternoon, that is patently not the case. Most people in Northern Ireland believe that there is a good chance that devolved government will be restored once the main Brexit decisions have been made. The prospect of a fully functioning Stormont in 2019 is not beyond the bounds of possibility, and we should do nothing to put it there. Indeed, the Bill is premised on that hope. It is not advisable for Westminster to intervene on a devolved policy matter for the first time since the advent of Northern Ireland in 1921.
It is also understood that this is a matter where the people of Northern Ireland are known to feel strongly. As we have heard, recent polling shows a strong desire for abortion law to be set by the democratically elected representatives of Northern Ireland. For example, a recent ComRes poll found that 64% of people—and 66% of women—in Northern Ireland believe it would be wrong for Westminster to legislate on this issue at this time. Those proposing these amendments seem a little more concerned to make progress on this issue while the Assembly is down than to get power sharing back up and running again. I firmly believe that the steps that we in Westminster take at this time should be guided by one overriding consideration—whether our work will help or hinder the restoration of power sharing. Will this clause hasten the return of a functioning Executive and Assembly? Will it build the necessary trust, or hinder it? The answer is pretty self-evident, given the culture and nature of Northern Ireland. Trust grows slowly but can be quickly decimated.
Secondly, as noble Lords have noted, the sections of the law referred to in this clause govern the law on abortion, as interpreted by the courts. These provisions currently restrict legal abortions in Northern Ireland to situations where the life of the mother is at risk and continuing the pregnancy would adversely affect her physical or mental health in a manner that is “real and serious” and “permanent or long-term”. As the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, so eloquently stated, it is clear that Clause 4 rests on a misunderstanding about changing primary legislation. Although the Northern Ireland Assembly is temporarily suspended, abortion law remains devolved, as we have heard many times this afternoon. Only on 10 February 2016, the Assembly debated changing the law; the Assembly voted not to change the law in either of these situations. This is a recent debate.
This June, the Supreme Court ruled on a case in Northern Ireland on the same narrow scope of abortions that the Assembly had debated in 2016. It rejected the appeal and did not make any declarations of incompatibility with the current law in Northern Ireland and the European Convention on Human Rights. The notion that the Secretary of State should now produce guidance to impact the conduct of officials based on non- binding reflections of the courts rather than on the law is deeply problematic. It establishes a concerning precedent that should not be sustained. The relevant guidance should not differ from that issued by the Executive in March 2016, which reflects the law as it stands.
The impact of the law in Northern Ireland today is interesting in certain respects and may be of interest to policymakers here. The commitment to the value of the life of both the unborn and the mother has helped to define the culture of Northern Ireland and, in part, to make Northern Ireland what it is today. This is illustrated by the publication of a report at the beginning of last year which used robust statistical methods to show that around 100,000 people are alive in Northern Ireland today who would not have been had the Province elected to embrace the Abortion Act back in 1967. It should not be surprising that a Province which has lost so many holds life to be so precious. The figure of 100,000 was attacked and complaints made to the Advertising Standards Authority. However, after a five-month investigation, and drawing on the advice of health economists, the ASA ruled in August last year that the figure was entirely reasonable. It is extraordinary to consider that 100,000 people are alive today and that their right to life is entirely consistent with human rights.
Clause 4 is deeply problematic, and I ask the Government for assurances that any guidance that they provide will instruct officials to respect the rule of law and the law as it stands in this area.
Lord Curry of Kirkharle (CB)
Noble Lords will be delighted to hear that I have slashed my speech by about 50%, in view of the time and the fact that other noble Lords have made comments very similar to mine, much more forcefully than I could have done. I too will speak about Clause 4 and I very much support the comments of other Peers on the matter. As a Christian, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Alton, and the noble Baroness, Lady Stroud. I subscribe to the biblical view that human life is sacred from conception and that marriage is the union of one man and one woman for life. However, my views are not important; our views are not important. Many of us feel a great unease that this Bill is being used to force our views on the people of Northern Ireland. The last thing we should do at this time is intensify division in Northern Ireland and potentially mislead, as the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, mentioned earlier.
Yet here we are with a Bill which declares to the people of Northern Ireland that their laws are in breach of human rights, even though there is no proper legal basis for saying so. Whatever views they hold on the substance of these issues, many people in Northern Ireland will find it quite improper that Westminster is attempting to force a particular view on them by the back door, in haste.
This issue is about the authority of this House and our parliamentary institutions to overrule delegated, devolved powers. I find that deeply concerning. Incidentally, the Northern Ireland Assembly has, even though it is not functioning at present, expressed a view and has voted on these matter within the past two years, as was mentioned earlier. According to the procedures that govern the Assembly under the terms of the Belfast Agreement, attempts to legalise abortion and same-sex marriage were not passed. We must give proper respect to the people, politicians and institutions of Northern Ireland and leave these matters to them.
These are incredibly sensitive matters for us to be trampling over with last-minute amendments to a Bill which was designed to be purely administrative and all about steadying the boat while the political parties in Northern Ireland try to negotiate a return to power sharing. Why in the world do we risk rocking the boat with Clause 4?
I am deeply concerned about the precedent that this creates. It could have serious consequences if we ignore and overrule devolved powers without having given this adequate debate. What authority do we have, when the devolved power-sharing Assembly is not functioning, to overrule the devolution agreement? This is a really important question—a point that was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Adonis. Without clarity on these issues, we should respect the fact that marriage and abortion are devolved in Northern Ireland to the Northern Ireland Assembly, so we should leave it to the Assembly and stop interfering.
Lord Hayward (Con)
My Lords, before I comment on Clause 4, to which the noble Lord, Lord Curry, and others have been referring, I pay credit to those Members of this House who fought and worked so hard to achieve the Belfast agreement some 20 years ago. I fall into the category of the noble Lord, Lord Rogan, if I can classify myself in that group, in that we should not underestimate the achievements of bringing to the Province peace and prosperity which continue today despite the problems which we are discussing. I say that having had the experience of members of my own family returning to Belfast only a few weeks ago because they had both the confidence and the desire to live in Belfast in a way that they had not had for many years. I hope that economically, while we debate the issues of this specific Bill, we do not talk down Northern Ireland, because it has a great potential.
I now move to Clause 4. It will come as no surprise to a number of Members that I wish to refer to it—the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, referred to my Private Member’s Bill earlier. The noble Lord, Lord Curry, just asked, “Why do we rock the boat?”. The answer is, “Because this affects people’s lives on a daily basis, and we have to do something about it”. Contrary to what the noble Baroness, Lady Stroud, said, we cannot just sit here and say, “There will be an Assembly. There will be an Executive. We will just disregard the people until there is”. The discussion this afternoon has identified, over and over again, that we do not know when there will be an Assembly. We do not know when there will be an Executive. Conor McGinn in the other place and I have been pursuing an identical Private Member’s Bill. We will continue to do so. I remind the House, as the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, did, that in 2015 the majority of the Northern Ireland Assembly voted for same-sex marriage. I believe that, if there were an Assembly now, that would be the case again today. Unfortunately, we do not have an Assembly or Executive to test that.
Nobody who introduces law should do so only because they know somebody who is going to be affected by it. We should try, as legislators, to cast our nets wide. It does, however, make it easier when we are aware of specific cases and the impact that our legislation would have upon individuals. When I made my maiden speech in this House, I referred to my involvement with the Kings Cross Steelers, the world’s first gay and inclusive rugby club. It happens that a fair number of the members of that club are from Northern Ireland, including John Henry, who captained the club a number of years ago. He and his brother were featured in the Belfast Telegraph earlier this year. We cannot say to those members of a rugby club based in London, “It is fine. You can get married here, but you cannot return home to Northern Ireland to get married as you could if you stay in this city”.
Last weekend, I was present at a gay wedding here in London. Of the two men involved, one had been brought up in Northern Ireland. He worked in this House for a number of years. We are saying to that person, “It is fine to get married in London but, by the way, you cannot decide to live and get married in Northern Ireland”. Is that really what we are proud of in this country? It is certainly not something of which I am proud. There are others whom we all know, or ought to know, who are affected similarly by the absence of same-sex marriage legislation in Northern Ireland. When I introduced my Private Member’s Bill in March this year, two were sitting in the Gallery. There were other people present at the wedding where I was on Saturday.
I can understand, as the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, said, that it will have relatively little impact if we pass Clause 4, but it will have an impact in itself. It will send a message, a small but clear message, that we still care for people who face problems that our legislation is not dealing with, wherever they may be. I was very interested in the suggestions of the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, of a number of different ways that we might find a solution to this problem.
I ask all parties not to stop with this Bill and this clause but to move rapidly to a change in the law that would be welcomed by so many people. It is not a question of people’s human rights; it is a British duty, and particularly our duty as legislators, to provide equality throughout my country.
Baroness Barker (LD)
My Lords, I am very pleased to follow the noble Lord, Lord Hayward, and I wish him all success with all his efforts to make sure that there is justice for our brothers and sisters throughout the United Kingdom.
I want to get back to the Minister’s opening speech. He said:
“Let me be clear that the Bill does not give the Northern Ireland departments new powers. Instead, it provides clarity on the exercise of existing powers”.
That is the point about Clause 4 that I wish to address. The purpose of Clause 4 is to allow the UK Parliament, in the absence of a Northern Ireland Executive, to scrutinise the impact of existing laws on abortion and same-sex marriage in Northern Ireland and, specifically, their incompatibility with the UK’s human rights obligations. The clause requires the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland to provide clear guidance to Northern Ireland’s civil servants with regard to the operations of these laws and to update the House of Commons each quarter on how she plans to address the laws’ impact on human rights obligations. It does not change the law in Northern Ireland.
I say to the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, it may be that this has been misinterpreted, but I think that Stella Creasy MP, in introducing this in another place, could not have been clearer when she said that it did not change the law in Northern Ireland. If people who are opposed to it choose to misinterpret it and overstate it, that is a different matter, but nobody who has supported the inclusion of Clause 4 as it now stands has made that claim. People who object to the substance of it certainly have—that I would accept.
There have been recent court cases which have cast doubt on the compatibility of the current Northern Ireland law with convention rights. The Supreme Court case in the summer questioned whether the current law in Northern Ireland was in contravention of Article 8. There will be further cases later this year which will return to the Supreme Court. That is the reason that this is important. The noble Lord, Lord Morrow, and several other people have repeatedly returned to decisions that were made in 2016, but life goes on in Northern Ireland, and things which happen in people’s lives all the time are raising new cases which will go to law.
There is deep confusion about the current law in Northern Ireland, which is interpreted by professionals in very different ways, and that leads people to be charged under the law. In 2017, a man and a woman had to accept formal cautions under the Offences Against the Person Act 1861 because they were seeking solutions for the termination of a pregnancy because they could not do what the many hundreds of other women are forced to do, which is to leave Northern Ireland and come to the United Kingdom in order to obtain the rights which are perfectly afforded to other women in England and Wales. We know that a woman at the moment faces potential prosecution for purchasing abortion pills for her then 15 year-old daughter, who had been the subject of an abusive relationship and had been raped. She has been granted a judicial review to challenge the decision of the Public Prosecution Service to pursue a prosecution against her—which was the result of the sharing of her information by a medical professional. This is the sort of thing on which the people of Northern Ireland, and in particular professionals who engage in implementing the laws, need further guidance.
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, said that the Human Rights Act does not change law, and he is absolutely right—it does not. I put it to him that if it did, in line with the Supreme Court’s recent ruling on abortion law in Northern Ireland, reform of Sections 58 and 59 of the Offences Against the Person Act would have happened. But it will not, and it will not under this law, either. The amendment to the Bill made in the Commons allows the court to rule on the compatibility of our laws with convention rights, like the Supreme Court did in June 2018 when the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mance, found that deferring to the Assembly, which had not sat for 18 months, to reach its own conclusion was not an appropriate course, as the need for such an amendment is evident. He said:
“the present legislative position in Northern Ireland is untenable and intrinsically disproportionate”,
in relation to abortions in cases of rape, incest or foetal abnormality.
I will say the following about the devolution matter, as devolution has been used a lot in this debate. I point out to noble Lords that the amendment which now stands as Clause 4 was passed by a majority of the House of Commons, in which there are representatives whose commitment to devolution goes way beyond that of anybody else in this House. They chose to pass this law and did so by a significant majority, because they never saw the devolution settlement as a reason to abrogate the human rights of people across the United Kingdom. This is an important and necessary piece of legislation at the moment, which will enable women in Northern Ireland simply to access their human rights.
Lord Hay of Ballyore (DUP)
My Lords, I very much welcome the Bill to the House this afternoon.
Before I come to the Bill, I shall take up a point that the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, mentioned. Some of us, as a party, would be supportive if he could convince all the parties in Northern Ireland to come with him with regard to discussing the Assembly meeting and a number of aspects, including Brexit. As a party, we would support that. I know that the noble Lord was recently in my own city of Londonderry, talking about the whole issue of Brexit, and I know he met a number of parties. Did he put that suggestion to Sinn Féin, as we would definitely support that in getting the Assembly up and running and meeting without an Executive? The noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, suggested that both parties should set aside their differences and get the Assembly and the Executive up and running, and we would support that as well. At least it would be the start of getting devolution up and running in Northern Ireland once again. All the other parties would support that way forward but, once again, one party is creating a major problem.
As I said, I very much welcome the Bill. Although it is not perfect, it is what it is. Yes, there is consensus in this House but that the best solution would be to have a working Assembly at Stormont, with local Ministers in place who are accountable to the people of Northern Ireland taking such decisions. But that is not the situation, and I appreciate the situation that the Secretary of State has found herself in. The Bill has become necessary to ensure that public services continue to function in Northern Ireland and to allow civil servants to make decisions.
In the other House the Bill was described very much as a limited measure. I would describe it as a poor substitute for democratically elected politicians in Northern Ireland making decisions that affect the people they serve. The Bill is limited in what it can do and the powers it gives civil servants in Northern Ireland. Yes, it will enable the Civil Service to continue to run public services, but it will not make civil servants lawmakers, and they will not have the power to change policy decisions in Northern Ireland. Of course, the Bill also gives powers to the Secretary of State and Ministers to appoint people to public bodies in Northern Ireland. My only question for the Minister concerns people who are unsuccessful in being appointed to public bodies in Northern Ireland. Will there be a mechanism for them, so that they can appeal if they have a grievance over public appointments?
We know that the Bill is very much time-bound. There is a clear indication from the Government that they hope that by March 2019—or by August 2019, a further five months—the Executive and Assembly will be up and running. The Bill is very quiet about what will happen if that does not happen. Certainly, I should like to know about that from the Government, because the Secretary of State is running out of road as regards what more she can do as a Secretary of State to get the talks process on its way. I worry that the Bill is very silent on what might happen afterwards, if there is no agreement on getting an Executive and the Assembly up and running.
It is difficult to see how the Bill will resolve some of the major issues that Northern Ireland now faces. Education is in a serious situation. The principals of many schools will tell you that their budgets have been so stretched that they can no longer deliver the service they want to deliver. On health, too, a number of policies and policy decisions that need to be made are being sat on. Waiting lists are growing, and members of the public sometimes have to wait 12 hours to be seen at A&E departments. All of this is compounding, so real policy changes need to be made by Ministers to get these serious situations addressed. On infrastructure, economic development and inward investment in Northern Ireland, a number of issues are sitting there awaiting policy decisions on how we will move forward. The Bill is ambitious, although in many ways it is not, and the Government should have gone much further when the Bill came to the House.
There has been a sense of political vacuum in Northern Ireland since the collapse of the institutions. I hope—I know it is the hope of all Members of this and the other House—that we can get the Executive restored sooner rather than later. Our party is willing to listen to any suggestion that gets the Executive and the Assembly up and running. As a party, we have put forward a number of suggestions to the Secretary of State on how that might be done in a limited period, so that we can move to full devolution again in Northern Ireland.
Lord Kilclooney (CB)
My Lords, this has been a wide-ranging debate and I sympathise with the noble Lord, Lord Duncan, who has many problems to solve in Northern Ireland. When the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, commenced his speech he said, “Here we go again”, and I am afraid we could add, “We’ve heard it all before”. There were two exceptions. The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, came out in favour of direct rule, which was a step forward by the noble Lord. And we heard an interesting idea from the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, who has an amendment, which I look forward to hearing later in the evening. We then heard the astonishing news from the noble Lord, Lord Maginnis, that he had a driving licence, which will come as a great source of comfort to those who drive between Belfast and Dungannon on the M1.
Northern Ireland is a serious subject as well. Democracy is not just the rule of the majority; it is the rule of the majority with the consent of the minority. Because Northern Ireland politics are not based on economics or on social issues, and because the political division is between those of two different nationalities—those who claim to be Irish and the majority who claim to be British—there is a great division between the communities. That is why those of us who met in the discussions that led to the Belfast agreement agreed to a power-sharing devolved system of government in Northern Ireland. We thank the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, for the role he played in getting that agreement. It is why, today, I repeat that I support the Belfast agreement and the idea of power-sharing devolution.
We meet in bad times, with the collapse of the Northern Ireland Executive. Strangely, I agree with the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, about when the restoration of the Executive at Stormont might arise. It will not be just after Brexit; it will probably be after the Irish general election. I have said that for some time and, increasingly, people are beginning to accept it. Sinn Féin does not want responsibility for any unpopular decisions in Northern Ireland, and then to go into an election in the Republic of Ireland. The one question that arises from the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, concerns the doubt that has increased in the last week over the fall in the Sinn Féin vote in the Republic of Ireland during the recent presidential election. Its vote in the Republic fell dramatically from 10% to 5%. Apparently, a lot of the missing 5% voted for the sitting President Higgins and might return to Sinn Féin. If that is so, Sinn Féin, as the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, suggested, may well be in a coalition Government in the Republic of Ireland. In such circumstances, it would then also like to be in a coalition Government at Stormont in Northern Ireland.
This Bill is necessary because projects have been delayed or dropped in Northern Ireland and jobs have been lost. The details of the projects that have been dropped have already been listed in this debate and there is no need to repeat them. It means that we need, immediately, an interim measure until there is a restoration of the Executive at Stormont, or indeed direct rule—that may be the final, fallback position. We have the Bill as an interim measure and I welcome it.
There are three subjects that I want to refer to briefly. The first is abortion. This is a very sensitive subject in Northern Ireland and one that, strangely enough, unites Protestants and Catholics. What do I hear, on the one rare occasion when Protestants and Catholics are united? The English want to wreck it. It amazes me. This is a devolved issue and it should be decided by the Northern Ireland Assembly. In a recent ComRes poll, 66% of Northern Ireland women wanted the question of abortion decided at Stormont and not imposed by Westminster. We must pay attention to the wishes of the Catholic and Protestant people in Northern Ireland. It would be wrong to impose English moral standards on the people of Northern Ireland.
Secondly, we had the Budget yesterday. From Northern Ireland’s point of view it is a welcome Budget. We particularly welcome the decision for a city deal for Belfast and the financial contributions that will be made towards that programme. We also heard that there is a city deal for the Derry and Strabane council area—or the city of Londonderry. What is a disappointment to me, given where I live, is that the second-largest city council in Northern Ireland—the city of Armagh, Banbridge and Craigavon—has not even had the initiative to submit its claim for a city deal. I hope that will receive consideration in the very near future.
The third point, which was missing from the Budget and has not been mentioned in the debate on the Bill so far, is the need for an exemption to air passenger duty in Northern Ireland. I remember raising this some years ago, when we had a Sinn Féin Minister of Finance at Stormont. He was genuinely sympathetic to the idea. His name was Ó Muilleoir, if I can pronounce it correctly. He pointed out to me, in a reply, that it would probably cost the Northern Ireland Exchequer about £50 million from the block grant. If that is all that is involved, and since we have no road or land links between Northern Ireland and Great Britain, it is a special case. Sympathetic consideration should be given to the abolition of air passenger duty. This would certainly increase tourism in Northern Ireland and reduce the cost to families—our families in Northern Ireland are somewhat larger than those in England —of going abroad on holiday, or even going to England for holidays.
Last week, the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, on the Liberal Democrat Benches, who always stresses her Republic of Ireland origins, said that the St Andrews agreement could not be changed, but it has been changed. The St Andrews agreement was an amendment to the Belfast agreement, and further amendments can be made. It is nothing new. One subject that needs to be addressed is one the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, mentioned at the outset: the petition of concern, which needs reconsideration. This concern should not apply matters of personal conscience, such as same-sex marriage or abortion. It should apply to economic and social policies—so that you do not have one community trying to impose its will on another, because that is the way life goes in Northern Ireland. It should not be abused or used by any party to stop legislation on same-sex marriage or abortion.
I look forward to the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, and I hope that the next time we debate Northern Ireland it will not be, yet again, a case of, “We’ve heard it all before”.
Lord Murphy of Torfaen (Lab)
My Lords, it is always a great pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney, particularly because of the important role that he played 20 years ago at the time of the Good Friday agreement.
The Opposition will not of course oppose the Bill. It is very important in clarifying the position of civil servants and allowing important and urgent decisions to be made, but it imposes on them quite a considerable personal burden. The shorter the time they have that burden, the better, because they are not elected. At the same time, the law will now clarify the position regarding planning application issues in Northern Ireland. It is important too that public appointments are made, because until now hugely significant appointments for the people of Northern Ireland have been frozen. That is obviously a part of the Bill that we very much support.
However, the thrust of the Bill is about the restoration of the Executive and the Assembly in Belfast. Although I say that we do not oppose the Government, we are not very happy about the situation with the current negotiations, or lack of them, which would lead to the restoration of the Assembly and Executive. It seems to me that there has been little urgency over the last months. It also seems that, by putting a final 10-month limit on the talks, we are in a sense accepting the principle of delay. That lack of urgency and the lack of an incentive to ensure that we have an Assembly and Executive up and running much more quickly than is envisaged by the terms of this Bill are disappointing.
Interestingly, the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, made the point that, because local government is so limited in its powers in Northern Ireland, not only what a regional government do but what local government in England, Wales and Scotland do as well is without democratic accountability, and as a consequence huge strain is put on the Good Friday agreement and the agreements that followed it. It is not just about an Assembly and an Executive; it is about the north-south arrangements too, because they fall if the Assembly falls. The whole point of getting the two communities together over all those years was that you would balance on the one hand the importance of the north-south institutions, which are extremely important to the nationalists, and on the other hand the importance of devolution in Northern Ireland, as well as east-west relations—the British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference has not met properly until recently. All these strands of the agreement went together. You could not pick and choose the ones that you liked; you had to accept them all. That is the problem today in Northern Ireland in getting those institutions up and running.
Sinn Féin makes a great deal of the fact that it believes that the principles of the Good Friday agreement, particularly with regard to equality and human rights, are not being carried out in Northern Ireland. However, the agreement has also been breached by the Assembly not meeting. If Sinn Féin does not go into the Assembly and causes it not to function, that breaches the agreement too, and that is an important part of the negotiations that will follow this legislation.
The DUP should acknowledge that the RHI scheme caused much scandal in Northern Ireland. It should also acknowledge that the issues that Sinn Féin is complaining about, particularly with regard to the Irish language, can be resolved. If 20 years ago the whole apparatus and structure of the agreement that we all admire had depended on one single issue—the Irish language—it would not have happened. Far more significant issues than that had to be resolved at the time, but there are other ways in which you can restore the Assembly and still deal with the Irish language. Why can there not be an independent commission to make recommendations on the language? Why cannot people from Northern Ireland go to Wales and Scotland to see how the language legislation operates there? There are ways and means that can be examined but they have not been examined over the last months and years and they urgently need to be dealt with. The trouble is that you cannot legislate for trust—it is built up over years.
In Northern Ireland there is always a reason why you should not establish the Assembly at this time or that time. People say, “Oh, we can’t do it because of Brexit”, or “Ah, it’s not Brexit at all; it’s the general election in the Republic that will stop it”. And if it is not that, perhaps the local government elections in Northern Ireland will be a barrier. If we had listened to those sorts of arguments over 20 years, nothing would have been done in Northern Ireland, because there are always obstacles in front of us. There has to be a greater sense of urgency, and these obstacles, important though they are, have to be seen as part of the bigger picture.
I am glad that at the beginning of this rather long but interesting debate the Minister indicated that there are to be talks about talks, as they are not talking about talks at the moment. When they do talk about talks, perhaps they should think about a more imaginative way of holding them. They should be much more intense. They should be proper all-party talks, structured in the way that we have seen in the past—not the odd meeting in a party office here and there but proper talks around the table with everybody involved. There should also be an independent chair or mediator. That has been talked about for months now but there has been no movement on it. We would not have had what we did unless it had been for George Mitchell and his colleagues, and there are people who can be called upon to do that job.
Frankly, the two Prime Ministers and the two Governments have to do a lot more in getting people involved in the talks. The Minister will know that when talks were held in the past, the Prime Ministers from Dublin and London spent day in and day out, week in and week out, and month in and month out working to bring the parties together. In my view, there is no evidence that the two Prime Ministers, in dealing with what is, after all, an international treaty between our two countries, are dealing with it as they could. I know that they have the problems of Brexit, which will overshadow things, but that is intertwined with the restoration. There are two sets of negotiations that affect Northern Ireland—one on Brexit and the border and the other on the restoration of the institutions—and both are getting nowhere. There has to be a greater intensity in the weeks ahead.
There is another way. Time after time we have had what you might call “away weeks” in which the parties are brought together—at St Andrews, for example, which worked, and at Leeds Castle, which did not—but I have seen no evidence of new thinking on this. I hope that the Bill will herald new thinking, new imagination and new ideas about how to bring this matter to an end. Otherwise, we will drift inexorably towards direct rule.
We have said it many times: if you establish direct rule, it is a devil of a job to get out of it again. I was a direct rule Minister for five years in total. I did not like it, and I have said that to your Lordships before. I did not want to take decisions on behalf of the people of Northern Ireland. It is for the people elected in Northern Ireland to do that job. However, with issues such as Clause 4 and so on, the longer this goes on, the greater the chance that this Parliament and this Government will have to take decisions for the people of Northern Ireland, and that would be a disaster for the people of Northern Ireland. It is not an ordinary Assembly like the ones in Edinburgh or Cardiff; it is different. It is an integral part of the peace process as well as the political process. We cannot go back to where we were. The only way is forward, and that, I hope, will start after this Bill is enacted.
Lord Duncan of Springbank
My Lords, to use the term “wide-ranging” for today’s debate would be an understatement. I shall try to do justice, as best I can, to each of the points that have been raised. I hope that noble Lords will forgive me if I miss any points, as that will not be deliberate, and there will be an opportunity to pick them up later.
I begin with the obvious statement that it is now 22 months since there has been a functioning Executive. If we are successful and secure the passage of the Bill today, and it takes the full five plus five months, it will be 32 months since there has been a functioning Executive. That is an extraordinary period of time without functioning government, and I am drawn in particular to the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Dunlop, who reminds us that while much is going on in Northern Ireland, much is now stuck in limbo. Whether it be corporation tax, questions of the north-south interconnector, the implementation of the Harper report, even the functioning of the joint ministerial committees, all are stuck in limbo, all are a loss for the people of Northern Ireland and this is a negative, not a positive. We cannot lose sight of that reality.
Of the three parts of the Bill, the first is designed to address this very issue. The noble Lord, Lord Murphy, paints a very clear picture: “What on earth are you going to do differently now? Otherwise, you run the risk of simply repeating that which has gone before”. So we do need to be moving forward, and on the question of an independent mediator, we are exploring that. There needs to be change, and that is one example. In terms of how we configure the meetings, their frequency and intensity, whether it be home or away, or however we seek to do it, there needs to be a new momentum. This is now—I have said this before—the last point at which we can move this forward. It is not an easy thing to stand here; I listened with a wry smile when the noble Lord, Lord Empey, said I have an ability to say nothing with great conviction. That would be quite a talent, but I hope I can give a little bit more of something rather than nothing today.
The issue we are facing now is that we need—several noble Lords mentioned this—something which is not mechanical. I have spoken often about this agreement as being like an engine or a machine that involves engineers and mechanics. There is also a spirit inside it, and that spirit of co-operation needs to be there. I noted that one noble Lord said, “You cannot legislate for trust”. You cannot legislate for spirit either, but without it, you cannot get the engine working. That is the most telling thing of all.
The Government continue to invest in Northern Ireland. There are ambitious projects going forward. Yesterday’s Budget was a revelation regarding where we can see money going forward—both into the Belfast city deal and the Derry/Londonderry deal. To the noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney, I say, get Armagh to write to me now as they need to be part of the widest possible deal. The whole mosaic of Northern Ireland should be captured inside the city deal framework.
I say to the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, that the £320 million released under the Budget for co-operation within education is available now and will be spent in the time available. It is absolutely right that it should be so, but there is no point in pretending that this is a substitute for local decisions made by locally elected individuals. There must be a functioning and sustainable Executive who can carry with them the trust and certainty the people of Northern Ireland deserve.
The noble Lord, Lord Eames, reminds us that we have a near unique society which has gone through the Troubles in the widest and darkest possible sense, and that there are wounds to be healed. Those wounds cannot simply be healed by putting money into the Province—that is not where they come from. It is about a trust and belief that the institutions of Northern Ireland can function and deliver the outcomes the people deserve. Without that, there is almost no purpose in having the Executive at all.
There are three parts to the Bill before us. The first, although difficult to realise, is straightforward in one sense: it is creating a window of opportunity for those negotiations. The second is a challenge, and there is no point pretending otherwise: how do we ensure that the civil servants are able to function in such a way that they have confidence in taking decisions? One of the questions asked by a number of noble Lords is: what is the urgency for this Bill to go through so quickly? One of the answers is that there is now a backlog of decisions in Northern Ireland, which have not been taken because civil servants do not have the confidence to take them. Those are not decisions that usurp the authority of Ministers. It is the quotidian, daily functioning decisions that must be taken to ensure good governance inside the Province. That is why we are issuing clear guidance—this is not an attempt to do direct rule lite. We have lodged the guidance in the Library, and noble Lords can read it and see where it is coming from.
We are ensuring that all those decisions taken by civil servants are fully transparent and are recorded and lodged each month, so we can see exactly what they are and understand what they are trying to do. Let us be frank about it: it will not allow civil servants to take bold, grand decisions which do not rest upon a solid foundation. We cannot ask those civil servants to display that level of courage. It is not appropriate to do so. That must rest with an elected Executive. A whole range of questions that we are all too familiar with will require that level of activity. I say to the people of Northern Ireland that the great shame right now is that this will not help those decisions to be taken. It will help the daily decisions to be taken with some confidence, but the bigger decisions await the arrival of a functioning Executive. That in itself is a serious challenge.
I have no desire to be critical of the Northern Ireland Civil Service; it is doing an extraordinary job in difficult circumstances. I note the circumstance that the noble Lord, Lord Maginnis, has raised once again, but the wider question of where that Civil Service stands is to be broadly applauded.
On the third part of the Bill, we have been very careful not to try to give a blanket power to my right honourable friend the Secretary of State to create appointments without due recourse to the affirmative procedure, which allows full scrutiny. We have tried to put on the face of the Bill only those appointments which are urgent and pressing and need to be made now. However, there are now other means whereby, in extremis and emergency, we can move forward under that approach.
Those are the three component parts of the Bill, but there is another part, which arrived in the other place. That was not at the behest of the UK Government, who did not seek that amendment. However, it was put forward, there was a vote, and that amendment has now come to us. It has not come through some illegitimate means, but through a proper means. One can debate what it is intended to achieve—and sometimes the interpretation granted by the media is a little unhelpful—so let me be as clear as I can be. I listened to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern. The clause in question does not confer new powers within the established procedure. It does not allow, in the guidance which will be issued, the civil servants to upset, ignore or run in contravention to the law.
I note the useful and important comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, about how guidance can be used in a sensible way to understand the law as it is today. As someone who comes from part of the kingdom which has a fully functioning devolved Government, I stress again that these decisions must be taken by the devolved Administration in the north of Ireland. There is no point in pretending we can usurp democracy in that fashion, simply because devolution is not to our liking. Devolution must function even when it is not as we would like to see it, but rather, how it must be.
Let me also be clear that it is not the desire of the Government to push this to a vote in any sense at all, but rather to recognise that which is here with us today. The guidance itself will not in any way seek to undermine the functionality or reality of the law. It is important we understand what it will do. It is not our desire to move into an issue of conscience—this must rest with the individual Peers gathered in this House today, should it come to a vote.
We come to a very simple point, raised by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay: irrespective of what emerges from the Supreme Court decision, which I do not doubt will emerge very soon, there will be a simple question of what that ruling means for the law. Ultimately, that new law will have to be made by the elected representatives of Northern Ireland, fully recognising all aspects of the community and that all individual voices need to be heard. It is not for us today to do that.
I turn briefly to the remarks made by my noble friend Lord Hayward. I am not unsympathetic to the point he makes about being able to send a message. Sometimes a message does indeed need to be sent, and sometimes it needs to be received too. I am not unsympathetic to that, but it is slightly different from what we must do here as a functioning legislature in that regard. I hope that will help us move that forward.
There are some other elements that we need to touch on very briefly. The question of the petition of concern has been raised. We are not averse to this being re-examined, resting broadly upon the principle of full engagement with all parties to ensure we can move it forward into a new but none the less fully supportive form. We would not be averse to that; how to achieve it is certainly something we can think about.
I listened with interest to the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, who again raised some very interesting points that I would like to discuss with him further so that we might have an opportunity to fully explore some of those aspects. If he will forgive me, I would like to have that meeting afterwards. I will happily produce a note of that meeting so that it can be shared with all. I am not trying to keep secrets from the rest of your Lordships here gathered.
I say to the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, that I am very much aware of the questions that arise in Clause 3(7) regarding the functioning of the advice and guidance. It is not the ambition or intention to undermine or erode any aspect of the functioning of the human rights legislation as it applies to Northern Ireland. I am happy to give that categorical assurance right now, on the record.
I am also aware, as I look across the Benches, of the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Dubs. I am conscious that we will not seek to eliminate the salaries of MLAs, who have a very real and serious function. They will be adjusted, as per earlier discussions that we have been party to, but it is not the ambition to remove them, nor to eliminate the salaries that rest on the assistants of those individuals. That will also be a very important part. If he will forgive me I will write to him directly on the question of fostering refugees because I do not have the answer at my fingertips.
I am aware of the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Alton of Liverpool, and I understand exactly where he is coming from. That is why I said earlier that this matter must be addressed by the people of Northern Ireland.
On the comments made by my noble friend Lord Trimble, I await with interest his amendment to understand what he intends. On the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, I hope that I have given some measure of comfort on the question of mediation, and that we will be able to move forward. The question of a wider mechanism might well rest on something similar that is in the mind of my noble friend Lord Trimble. Let us see what emerges. We are not averse to looking at new methods to try to move these issues forward.
I could go on, but given the hour and that this is not the last time your Lordships will hear from me today, I will close. I say again that we hope that this can move forward in a sensible way and that we do not divide the House. If there are any issues that noble Lords wish to raise with me between Second Reading and Committee stage, I will be available for any discussions they might like to have. On that basis, I beg to move.
Northern Ireland (Executive Formation and Exercise of Functions) Bill
Tuesday 30th October 2018
(6 years, 1 month ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Northern Ireland (Executive Formation and Exercise of Functions) Act 2018 Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: HL Bill 137-I(a) Amendments for Committee, supplementary to the marshalled list (PDF) - (30 Oct 2018)
Lord Adonis
“Executive formation: appointment of a mediator
(1) During the period while there is no Executive, the Secretary of State may specify in regulations the appointment of a mediator to facilitate formation of an Executive.(2) A statutory instrument containing regulations under subsection (1) may not be made unless a draft of the instrument has been laid before both Houses of Parliament by 1 December 2018 and approved by a resolution of both Houses within the period of 10 sitting days beginning with the day on which the instrument is laid.(3) For the purposes of this section, a “sitting day” means a day on which both the House of Commons and the House of Lords are sitting.”
Lord Adonis (Lab)
My Lords, I spoke to this amendment at Second Reading and I will not say anything further, as I want to give the Minister an opportunity to say more about the progress which he and the Secretary of State are making with the parties in Northern Ireland on identifying and appointing a mediator and what the timescale for that might be. This is clearly of huge importance to our debate and to progress towards establishing a new Executive in Northern Ireland. I beg to move.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office and Scotland Office (Lord Duncan of Springbank) (Con)
My Lords, thank you for bringing this matter before the Committee. I will make some general points and then some specific ones. The amendment would place the question of a facilitator or mediator in the Bill. We can do that without it going on the face of the Bill. As I indicated earlier today, we now intend to move from the statement which I gave the previous time I addressed your Lordships—that this is part of the mix—to stating that we are now actively consulting with the parties in order to move this matter forward. All elements of the timescale are not yet fixed but I can say that this will be moving forward within the realisable timetable that we have set for the overall movement of the parties gathering. In order for this to be meaningful, such an individual would have to be in play from the earliest stages, in order to move the most intensive form of dialogue forward. We hope and intend that such an individual would be able to act in a much more expansive role than just as a chair. I would rather use the word “Sherpa” in its European context; someone who can be part of the play and engage directly with each participant both behind and before the scenes.
We hope to move this forward with the consent of all the parties involved to make sure that it is a meaningful contribution. I cannot comment further on the individuals who might be in scope for this role, but others have already sent information through to the department, and we are in the process of sifting and examining it in some detail.
Lord Empey (UUP)
My Lords, we have heard the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, that we have a mediator, but we are not comparing like with like. Going back to the time of George Mitchell, we have to remember that everything—the whole constitutional process, from scratch—was on the table. My fear is that if you appoint a mediator, they are not going to be able to confine their activities to the narrow issues that brought the Executive down. I believe Sinn Féin would want to completely open up the whole process, putting on the table the constitution, the principle of consent—all those things. I can see where people are coming from, but it seems to me that it is not beyond the ability of the parties to find a mechanism within themselves whereby talks could be held. To get a mediator to come in to deal with the Irish language Act and the RHI—the two things that brought the Executive down—does not seem particularly realistic.
The agenda would grow and grow, and the process could go on for years. Everything will end up on the table, including the constitution and the principle of consent. I do think we have to try to keep as open a mind as possible, but there may be a difference between a mediator and a facilitator, or a question as to whether the parties can find a mechanism among themselves; but bear in mind where this could go. If some people want to open up a process, there is no better place for Sinn Féin to be than in a process. They are serial negotiators; they want to continue to negotiate, which avoids having to take any tough decisions, particularly decisions in government. We have been warned by others that there are many who would take the view that Sinn Féin will do nothing until the Irish election is over. They do not want to have to take any tough decisions in government, which they would have to do because of the arithmetic, if nothing else.
Bear that in mind when considering the options before us. I would caution that that needs to be taken into account.
Lord Adonis
My Lords, the Committee is listening with great attention to the noble Lord. Would he care to elaborate on the distinction between a mediator and a facilitator?
Lord Empey
I am not personally advocating either, but a mediator is somebody who is negotiating between the parties. A facilitator may be somebody who simply organises the meetings, the paperwork, the breakout sessions and so on. A mediator is playing a Mitchellesque role in meeting the parties, negotiating, putting papers to them and so on. I see it as a step down, if you like, in those terms. I am not personally convinced. If people are not mature enough at this stage, after all these years, to arrange meetings among themselves—and we did have one, admittedly, that was an initiative by one party. I do not believe that we are so far down the road that we could not arrange meetings between ourselves. If the will to talk is there, surely it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that the parties can arrange that among themselves. We have an Assembly Speaker and we have Deputy Speakers. They could chair the meetings. All parties are represented, more or less. There are ways in which it could be done, but believe me, once you get into a process with a mediator, it could go on for years.
Lord Adonis
My Lords, I listened with great attention to the noble Lord, but I listened with equal attention to his speech at Second Reading in which he said that no progress was being made whatsoever in establishing an Executive, and that it was about time that some was made. If it has not been done by the process he has just suggested—the parties coming together—it is hard to see how some external stimulus could lead to a less advantageous situation than the current one.
Lord Empey
I take the noble Lord’s point, which is pertinent. However, do not forget that if we keep to this three-stranded model, we have a Secretary of State and, where appropriate, an Irish Foreign Minister, and in the proper format there is no reason why they cannot be engaged. I am saying that maybe it would be an incentive if the Secretary of State made it clear that a process was starting and that the parties understood that if they were not prepared to participate in that, perhaps she and others would start to take decisions. I am not trying to be obstructive or rule anything out. I am simply saying, be careful. It sounds like a good idea, but bear in mind that people who are serial negotiators—they have been doing this for 25 or 30 years —will put things on the table and open the whole thing up. My only worry about this is that it just postpones the decisions even further, although I understand fully the noble Lord’s good intentions.
Lord Murphy of Torfaen (Lab)
I will intervene for a few seconds. The issue is that because the “talks” and “negotiations” have been notoriously unsuccessful over the last couple of years, there has to be some form of structure—although I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Empey, that it has to be on a very restricted number of issues, otherwise you go back to a Good Friday agreement mark 2, and we do not want that. You want to work within the agreement but have some sort of structure. If there is a person who could organise that structure and be acceptable to all the parties, I see nothing wrong with that. I understand that if you expand it beyond the current issues, that could be difficult. However, there are a number of issues beyond those the noble Lord, Lord Empey, mentioned—for example, the Irish language and equal marriage. All those things can be on the table, but it is about getting some form of structure which simply does not exist at the moment. Anything that could help that would be useful.
Lord Adonis
My Lords, I invited the Minister to set out the Government’s thinking, which he did, clearly, and I took him to say that they are minded to move towards some form of external mediation at some early date. I take that as a significant statement, and on that basis, I am content to withdraw the amendment.
“( ) The guidance must direct senior officers of Northern Ireland departments, giving due regard to advice from the Northern Ireland Commission for Victims and Survivors, to prepare a scheme to provide a pension to those who are regarded as seriously-injured arising from an incident associated from the conflict in Northern Ireland.”
Lord Hain (Lab)
My Lords, Amendment 3 is in my name and that of the noble Lords, Lord Bruce and Lord Cormack, and, I think, the noble Lord, Lord Bew, indicating Cross-Bench support. I will also speak to Amendment 13A in my name and that of the noble Lord, Lord Bruce.
When I spoke in March, I raised the plight of the 500 or so people severely injured because of the Troubles in Northern Ireland. The overwhelming majority were injured through no fault of their own, and face growing into old age desperately unsure about what the future holds for them. Because of their injuries, most of them were unable to build the kind of occupational pensions that they would otherwise have had. Just recently, one of the WAVE Trauma Centre’s injured group, which has been campaigning for a special pension, received a final settlement on her pension contributions in the form of a lump sum. It was taxed at 20%. She received a magnificent £25.39, which, frankly, is an insult to somebody in her situation.
Jennifer had her legs blown off in a no-warning IRA bomb in 1972, when she was 21 years of age. Paul, who was 21 when loyalists shot him six times because their target who lived next door did not turn up, is paralysed from the waist down. He describes the constant pain he lives with as like,
“sitting in a pool of lava”.
Every two days his carers—his wife and his brother—have to use a colonic irrigation system to empty his bowels into a bucket. That is Paul’s reality.
This especially vulnerable group of victims have had to deal with much more than the physical damage inflicted upon them. Peter was 26 when he was shot and paralysed in a case of mistaken identity in 1979. His wife, his childhood sweetheart, was tormented by misplaced guilt because she opened the door and,
“let evil into their home”,
as she described it. Peter had to watch her drink herself to death by the age of 51.
Mary was 17 when she was paralysed in a drive-by sectarian shooting. She was told that a realistic life expectancy was that she would not see her 32nd birthday. More than 40 years on, she is still here. She has had three shoulder replacements because of the strain on her upper body, being confined in a wheelchair. She has had to pay for these privately because if she joined an NHS waiting list she would be immobile.
Those who suffered severe physical injuries during the Troubles in Northern Ireland are, in many ways, the forgotten victims of the conflict. Perhaps there was an assumption that they had been looked after at the material time with generous compensation payments that would see them financially secure for the rest of their lives, but that simply did not happen. Many of the severely injured have lived much longer than the life expectancy assumptions made at the time. Most of the severely injured sustained their injuries during the 1970s and 1980s. Many predated disability discrimination legislation so, even if they could have found work, the chances that the workplace would have been adapted to their needs—for example, for those confined to wheelchairs—were more than remote. All they want is a degree of modest financial security so that they—and in many cases their carers—can live the rest of their lives with as much independence and dignity as possible.
To that end, I urge the Government to act swiftly to address this cruel legacy of Northern Ireland’s violent past and provide support for the severely injured through the provision of a special pension. Getting the Government both to recognise and to act upon that obligation is the purpose of these two amendments. In terms of the level of pension, the then Victims Commissioner for Northern Ireland suggested a figure of £150 per week or around the current state pension provision. Given the age profile, a lump sum for those aged over 75 would probably be more appropriate.
In any event the cost, including the administration of the pension, either by the Northern Ireland Civil Service or through the DWP, would not be prohibitive. This total cost has been authoritatively estimated to be between £3 million and £5 million annually. These figures clearly indicate that the pension commitment will diminish through the passage of time, even allowing for some provision for a proportion of the pension to go to the carer when the injured person dies. But for the pension to make a real difference to those who need it, it cannot be counted as income for the purposes of qualifying for existing benefits. That is a very important point. It must be “as well as” and not “instead of”, and be in addition to any other pensions and/or benefits that the injured person either is, or will be, in receipt of.
There is a subsidiary issue to be dealt with in relation to the relatively very small number of people who were severely injured by their own hand, but it is quite wrong that the vast majority who were injured through no fault of their own should be denied support because of a specific political blockage that could and should be resolved. These were not people in the wrong place at the wrong time. They were at work. They were at home with their family. They were having a coffee in a café. They were walking home after an evening at the cinema. They were in the right place, where they should have expected to be safe and secure.
Now is the time for the Government to act swiftly, with I hope wide parliamentary backing, after years and years of this case having no response. That is why I speak to this amendment, which simply seeks that the guidance referred to in Clause 3(3) must direct or, as Amendment 13A puts it, provide for,
“senior officers of Northern Ireland departments, giving due regard to advice from the Northern Ireland Commission for Victims and Survivors, to prepare a scheme to provide a pension to those who are regarded as seriously-injured arising from an incident associated from the conflict in Northern Ireland”,
and for that to be backdated, as Amendment 13A requires, to 1 January 2018. I say that because, if this takes some time to implement—if it requires legislation, as I understand may be the case—there must be certainty that this will happen and that, however long it takes to process, it will be backdated so that at least these victims can have something to look forward to.
Lord Cormack (Con)
My Lords, I will be very brief. I was delighted to add my name to Amendment 3, which is also in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Hain and Lord Bruce. I do not need to make the case, because it a powerful case that has been powerfully made by the noble Lord, Lord Hain. All I would say is that during my five years as chairman of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee in another place I met many people and heard many distressing accounts that underline the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Hain. We are talking about people whose futures were destroyed, whose hopes were blighted and whose lives were changed for ever by an evil act and not by anything that they had done to themselves.
As the noble Lord, Lord Hain, said, there were those who were responsible for their own injuries. They deserve some compassion for their terrible mistakes and evil deeds, but that is not what we are talking about tonight. We are talking about those who were blameless and whose need is great, who are advancing in years as they advance in decrepitude, and who are less and less able to do anything for themselves. The only way to help those people, who are as deserving of help as any category I can think of, is for us to do something along the lines advocated in Amendment 3.
I hope that my noble friend the Minister, for whom I have a genuinely high regard and who is a real master of his brief and really concerned with the subjects for which he is responsible, will be able to say enough to prevent any thought of dividing the House. The House should not be divided on an issue such as this. We should be totally united in our determination to do a little for those who have lost so much. I have great pleasure in supporting this amendment.
Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)
My Lords, I too support this amendment, which I have signed, and which was powerfully moved by the noble Lord, Lord Hain. All I add is that it encapsulates the dilemma that the Bill represents. These are people who have suffered for decades and who are towards the end of their lives, although they have lived a lot longer in many cases than they were expected to, with psychological and physical difficulties. There is a cross-party and, indeed, administrative and political consensus that they should be compensated, but there is no mechanism for doing so because that mechanism has effectively foundered or is in deep freeze. In that situation, to say to these people that they will have to wait until such time as an Assembly is re-established would be heartless in the extreme.
There are two issues. First, it should be within the capacity of the Government to make this happen, either in the Bill or by some other mechanism. The cost is relatively low. Secondly, to suggest that it is not possible to do something as sympathetic and compassionate as this, which has such cross-party support, would be very distressing to people who have been led to believe that their case is understood and that there is a willingness to deliver it, when, because of the incapacity of the political system, they might have to wait too long even to benefit. The amendment is well made and there are one or two others that fall into the same category. If the Minister can provide the assurance, he should really be talking not to the House but to the victims.
Baroness O’Loan (CB)
My Lords, I support the noble Lord, Lord Hain, on this issue. We need the issues of the past to be dealt with. This needs to be dealt with by means of a separate ring-fenced budget so that it does not come out of the Northern Ireland budget. Particularly on pensions, I know many of the people to whom the noble Lord referred. I have worked with them and met them, and spoken to and for them. There is an ongoing campaign that is wearing them out. I ask that there be support, as there seems to be right across the House.
I also ask for support for additional resources for trauma services, for the ongoing search for the disappeared, such as Captain Robert Nairac and the 17 year-old Columba McVeigh, and for an independent historical investigations unit that is not constrained to a five-year period.
The suffering of those to whom the noble Lord, Lord Hain, referred has been enormous. It has lasted for so long. The Government could make a difference here and I ask them to do so.
Lord Eames (CB)
My Lords, I add my support to that which the noble Lord, Lord Hain, has received already. In my own experience over the years, I have been in these people’s homes; I have been at their bedsides; I have been with their families; I have tried to advise their young people, who were bereft of parental support. Time and time again, the efforts of clergy of all denominations have somehow come to a shuddering stop over this simple question: who is a victim?
Right back in the early stages, when Denis Bradley and I were asked to produce a report on the legacy of the Troubles, we came head-on to this question of definition. In my reading of the words that the noble Lord, Lord Hain, just used in his speech, I have no hesitation in adding my support to his request. These are the real victims of legacy: through no fault of their own, they will carry to their deaths the scars—mental and physical—of the Troubles. I am so glad to support the amendment.
Baroness Altmann (Con)
My Lords, I briefly add my support for the amendment moved so passionately by the noble Lord, Lord Hain. From personal experience, I know what it is like to campaign for a pension that one desperately needs. It is soul-destroying. The relief when the pension finally arrives is also life-changing.
The Government already intervene in devolved issues, as the noble Lord, Lord Hain, said, while the functioning Assembly is not operational. The case for recognition and reparations for these severely injured victims seems absolutely clear. I implore my noble friend, who I know is a compassionate man, to urge the department to show the compassion for which so many across the House have expressed the need.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
My Lords, I support my noble friend Lord Hain and the noble Lords, Lord Cormack and Lord Bruce, in their Amendment 13A. I spent two and a half years as Victims Minister in Northern Ireland. As we heard from other noble Lords, there is great understanding in this House of the suffering that many have endured. Indeed, the Eames-Bradley report—written by two great men—really brought home to many what was required for the needs of victims, though it was unpalatable and difficult for some.
The victims whom my noble friend Lord Hain spoke about are ageing—they are getting older. Their conditions are getting worse and their circumstances more difficult. One of the things that struck me as both Victims Minister and Health Minister was how, in so many cases, the help that the health service was able to provide was inadequate to meet the needs of those who required support, particularly in cases of mental health. When you spoke to the group of people we are talking about—I do not know whether other noble Lords felt the same—and heard their stories and about the impact of what had happened on their lives, you would be very conscious that you could turn around and take the story with you, but they were living with what they told you and the consequences would never leave them.
We understand the limitations of the Bill and what can be done within it. We understand the problems caused by there being no Executive or Assembly, but this is an occasion when, I hope, the Government could take some action to right a wrong and address an injustice. They could take a step in the right direction to see what support can be given. I congratulate noble Lords on bringing this forward, and I hope that the Minister—who I know is giving considerable thought to this—can give a positive response this evening.
Lord Duncan of Springbank
I am struck, as I gaze around the Chamber, by how many people are wearing poppies. And I am struck again by the poetry:
“Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn”.
But of course we are talking about people who will be wearied by the passage of years and who will be condemned to live through that period—victims of a great iniquity done to them. I have spoken of the situation a number of times now with the noble Lord, Lord Hain. I will preface my remarks by saying that it is our hope that we will secure an Executive who can take this matter forward. Were I to stop with that answer, it would be inadequate, so I will not stop there but carry on.
The important issue here is that we have commissioned from the Victims Commissioner a thorough report into all aspects of this serious issue. We have asked her to expand her remit to look at not just physical but mental anguish and I am able to say today that the Secretary of State will write to the Victims Commissioner, asking her to include a date from which payments shall be made. This is not a future point but rather some point where we can be very clear going forward.
As I said, it is our hope that an Executive will take this matter forward. However, if, despite our best efforts, that Executive have not been restored by the time updated advice on a pension issue has been provided by the Victims Commissioner, the Northern Ireland Office will consider how the matter can be progressed. That is not to put it into the long grass or put it away, but to recognise that it must be progressed.
Baroness O’Loan
Has the Victims Commissioner indicated a date by which she might report?
Lord Duncan of Springbank
The Victims Commissioner has not indicated such a date, but I am led to believe that we should be able to see progress in good time, if I can use that term. It is not an answer that the noble Baroness would want. I would like to give her a date but I cannot bind the Victims Commissioner to a date.
Lord Cormack
Of course my noble friend cannot bind her, but could she not be asked to do it within six months at the most? These people’s lives are coming to an end very frequently and we do need to have a date.
Lord Duncan of Springbank
I am in a slightly invidious position because I cannot give a date—but I know that six months would be very far away and would be unacceptable to us. I cannot say that specifically, if my noble friend will forgive me, but we will make progress as quickly as we can because we recognise that this is not a matter that can be left to languish. The individuals are living through their own fate and we will not allow that to be the case. I hope that noble Lords will accept these words for what they mean and what they can deliver.
My word—I have been given a sheet of paper. We will guarantee within six months. So, yes, we will be able to do it within six months and I hope that that will therefore give some comfort to noble Lords that we take this matter with the utmost seriousness and we will move it forward.
Lord Hain
My Lords, I am grateful for the support from the noble Lords, Lord Cormack and Lord Bruce, from the noble Baronesses, Lady O’Loan and Lady Altmann, from the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, with his passion, and from my noble friend Lady Smith, because of course she worked with many victims, both when I was Secretary of State and before and did a fantastic job. She, perhaps more than anybody, knows about the issues at stake here, from a ministerial point of view at least. I am grateful to the Minister for the discussions we have had and for the efforts he has made both to understand and respond to the issue. He has showed more conviction to do something about this than I have detected from the Government so far. I do not want to put him in an invidious position, and I certainly do not want to injure his future career by praising him, but he has shown real compassion as well as some determination to resolve this.
I think that six months, with due respect, is a long way away, as the Minister said. The Victims Commissioner has had this instruction since May. That is a while ago and I hope that this can be weeks rather than months. Maybe some of his officials listening to this debate might ring the Victims Commissioner and suggest that she at least read the debate and make her own mind up.
This has to happen—and it has to happen within a specified time. I am not asking the Minister to do that specifically tonight, but I do not want to be in the position of facing some future legislation in six months’ time and then being told, “Well, maybe next year”. I am grateful to the Minister for saying that there will be a date from which it will be applied, even if the actual decision to do something about it comes in the future. I think that that will be a reassurance to the severely injured victims. I look forward to receiving the letter which may give us some clarity. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Bruce of Bennachie
“( ) The guidance shall direct senior officials of Northern Ireland Departments to take all reasonable action to prepare to deliver, within the existing legal framework, a redress scheme for victims of historic institutional child abuse, taking into account the recommendations of the Historical Institutional Abuse Inquiry and the reports of the Panel of Experts on Redress.”
Lord Bruce of Bennachie
My Lords, I think this again indicates the dilemma that we are having, although the framework is possibly slightly clearer and it may therefore be possible to implement it at least as well as the previous amendment, which we hope will be delivered. The reality is that the historical institutional abuse inquiry was the largest inquiry into child abuse ever held in the UK. I think it is fair to say that the backdrop was not just the need to investigate: in reality, movies have been made, novels have been written, many testimonies have been given to the systematic and appalling treatment that people have received, north and south of the border, over decades and in many institutions. It is quite shocking. When we read these things, it makes most people very angry that that kind of abuse could have been perpetrated—sometimes, and too often, in the name of religion. However, the point is that an inquiry happened, it reported and made clear recommendations. It was chaired by a retired judge, Sir Anthony Hart, and lasted for four years. It is more than two years since it reported. It included a public apology, a memorial and a financial redress scheme
There is political agreement—and yet, because we have no Executive and no Assembly, we have no ability to deliver that agreement. We are talking about victims who, as in the case of the previous amendment, have been waiting for up to 40 years for redress and have had to live with consequences of that abuse. We are seeing them, again, approaching the end of their lives without having received anything more, at the moment, than an apology and a memorial. There is a need to address this.
The recommendations of the Hart commission provide a clear template. It looks, on the face of it, as if this could fall within the terms of the Bill. In other words, there is enough detail in those recommendations to enable the civil servants to implement them. Again, without guidance, maybe the civil servants feel that they cannot or should not, or that they need the authority of Ministers from an Executive or the Assembly.
If the Minister agrees with the basic analysis I have presented, is it his interpretation that the Bill could provide the guidance that would enable the recommendations of the Hart commission to be implemented within the terms of the Bill as advice and recommendations that civil servants would actually have the capacity to implement? If that is not possible, the same argument will apply as to the previous amendment—that the UK Government need to do something about it. I beg to move.
Lord Maginnis of Drumglass (Ind UU)
My Lords, I support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Bruce. It would be absolutely ridiculous if the amendment which has previously been accepted were to supersede this particular case of sexual abuse of young people, which predates to a large extent what has already been dealt with in Amendment 3.
Lord Empey
My Lords, my Amendment 6 is in this group. The argument is the same. This is not the first discussion we have had on the Hart report. It has been raised whenever we have dealt with budgetary matters, and we have had two budgets. To put it in context, there is one complication in that the funds are not exclusively a government responsibility because presumably the people who operated the institutions have insurance. We have seen examples, particularly in the United States and elsewhere, where insurers have had to contribute. I am totally in favour of that but it should not paralyse us and prevent us moving forward.
The other characteristic of this proposal is that there is all-party support in Northern Ireland for it. There is not a single, solitary MLA in Stormont who is opposed to it, so there is no reason to say that there is a political issue here. There is no political issue with regard to support. There is unanimity—a rare commodity in Northern Ireland. The victims came to the other place to lobby—I met them in the Public Gallery—and spoke to Members of Parliament. This is a very similar demographic to that referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Hain, including people who were traumatised more than 40 years ago. This is not just a Northern Ireland issue; it applies right across the board, as the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, indicated.
Where do the funds come from? As of yesterday there are unhypothecated Barnett consequentials of £320 million. Where Barnetts are concerned, the money that comes from London does not have to go to particular subjects, such as education or roads; it can go to whichever department the previous Executive directed it to. It would not be difficult to check again whether there is unanimity for this, which I believe there is. I understand the Minister’s dilemma—is this creeping direct rule?—but there is a different dimension here, just as in other amendments that we will come to shortly. There is compassion. There is time. There is the degree of suffering that people endured. Is it right that we add to that when there is no financial, political or any other rational reason for doing so?
I just do not believe that the ordinary person in the street back home, whatever their view of devolution or Stormont, would be that upset if these people who have suffered for so much of their lives receive redress and we deal with this on humanitarian grounds. That is the best approach. There is unanimity of support, there is a humanitarian issue and I believe the resources are available. On those three issues, I hope the Minister will see fit to give us a positive response.
Baroness O'Loan
The people affected by the historical institutional abuse inquiry were also affected by the Troubles. Many of them ended up in residential institutions because of the Troubles. Billy McConville, the son of Jean McConville—who was abducted and murdered by the IRA—died before the payments recommended by Hart were made. I support the proposal and hope that the Government will find some way of dealing with this in the interests of those victims.
Lord Hay of Ballyore (DUP)
My Lords, I, too, have some sympathy with the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Bruce. As the noble Lord, Lord Empey, said, this issue is supported by all the political parties in Northern Ireland in trying to address this very serious problem.
It is quite some time since the Hart report was delivered to the Government. I know that David Sterling, head of the Civil Service, was working up a Bill to try to resolve the issue, but I am told that he is now saying clearly that it has to be dealt with by a Minister, which slightly worries me. None the less, if there is anything that all the parties can agree on, the Government should grab it, because that does not often happen.
I have raised this subject in the House before, because I believe that the institutions responsible for the abuse should pay up as well. It would be totally wrong if all the money came from the Government. I know that the issue has been raised in the other place as well, and I say to the Government that nothing should stop them trying to address it. Some survivors of the abuse are getting old: some are very elderly, and some have died. Relations have died, too, and those people have not seen the full output of what they deserve. I appeal to the Government and I hope that, with the support of all the political parties in Northern Ireland, and the support shown throughout this House and in the other House as well, when the issue has been raised, they will find a way of dealing with it. We should make sure that we do not create a major problem for devolution in Northern Ireland when it comes back.
Lord Duncan of Springbank
My Lords, it is not often that we find unanimity in such a fashion, so let us grab it with both hands. I fully recognise the importance that Members accord this issue. It stands alongside the earlier matter raised by the noble Lord, Lord Hain. I hope the House will welcome the fact that the Northern Ireland Civil Service has advised that it is currently preparing draft legislation based on the recommendations of the Hart inquiry, which it will publish very soon. On the basis of that there will be a full public consultation, to ensure that we can move this matter forward, and it will be our intention to do so within a sensible time. There is unanimity on this issue and I believe we can make progress on it. I hope that is enough to give the noble Lord who moved the amendment some comfort.
Lord Bruce of Bennachie
I am grateful to the Minister for his characteristically sympathetic response, and obviously for the practicality that civil servants are bringing forward legislation. That does, of course, raise the question of how and when such legislation could be implemented, given the present lacuna. So I add the proviso that I hope the Government will ensure that the timetable is not open-ended. This does not have to wait for ever, or for the return of the Assembly.
A point has been raised about the responsibility of those who perpetrated the abuse. Yes, I agree—but I also caution that I would not want that to be used as an excuse to create an argument that would delay things. It seems to me that there is absolute agreement about what should be done and how it should be done. It is good that legislation is happening, but it is slightly concerning that this requires legislation rather than executive action. There seems to be enough in the Hart recommendations to pretty well constitute the basis of legislation, which could be implemented as an executive action. With the proviso that I hope the Government will not allow this simply to languish as one of the issues waiting for the Assembly to return, I am willing to withdraw the amendment.
“(4A) The Secretary of State must establish an advisory panel which senior officers of Northern Ireland departments may consult in cases where they are required to exercise a function of the department under subsection (1).(4B) If a senior officer consults the advisory panel under subsection (4A), then the senior officer must have regard to the advice of the advisory panel.”
Lord Bew (CB)
My Lords, before I speak to the amendment I should like to say that the noble Lord, Lord Hain, is right in his belief that he has my support on the earlier amendment and I am happy to give it. Amendment 5 is about a less emotive matter, but it still addresses a serious question. Noble Lords will have heard, particularly in the speech by the noble Lord, Lord Empey, but also in an allusion just now by the noble Lord, Lord Hay, about the morale at the top of the Northern Ireland Civil Service. It is in a very bad way. Part of the context has already been described by the noble Lord, Lord Empey: the incredible bullying by spads. Of course you hear about bullying by spads in Whitehall but believe me, as someone who knows both worlds, this is a qualitatively different level of bullying. The consequence has been that the Civil Service has lost some of its élan and, to be blunt, self-confidence.
Related to that is the fact that at the beginning of the Brexit crisis the Irish Government, under Enda Kenny, the then Taoiseach, had allowed practical discussions about the border and other questions to go on with Northern Ireland civil servants, but that was then stopped under a new Irish Taoiseach. In fact, the Northern Ireland Civil Service has not had the sort of practical impact on Brexit discussions—even with our own Government, in a weird kind of knock-on effect—that it might be expected to have. When you read that three or four weeks ago Michel Barnier was asking for figures on the trade flows on the island of Ireland—east-west and north-south—your jaw drops because you know that the senior officials at the Northern Ireland Office all know these things just like that but apparently we have been conducting a negotiation with the rather important issue of exactly what is going on in this trade relationship not even known. Perhaps it is not that surprising; there are things at stake in this negotiation other than the actual practicalities of the trade relationships from north to south and east to west, but still they seemed to have disappeared from the scene.
I think, by the way, that this issue has constitutional significance. The NICS has a strong sense of the way in which the Good Friday agreement was established, particularly the notion that if you are going to adhere to the agreement then north-south regulatory arrangements, however they develop, depend on the co-operation and support of the Northern Ireland Assembly. That point is critical: if you are going to defend the Good Friday agreement, you also have to be careful about what is projected in terms of regulatory arrangements north and south, and the Assembly has an effective veto.
We have lost a lot through a lack of morale. It means that when this legislation came down the pipe, officials could be heard rather nervously saying, “I don’t want that authority”, even though, to be absolutely blunt, the Queen’s Government must go on and these decisions are necessary to prevent extreme cases of waste, if nothing else. So it must happen and the Government are right to take the powers. However, in the context in which we are now living, it is right to offer the officials, who strongly suspect that they will be subject to judicial review and all manner of clamour locally about decisions that people do not like, some sort of advisory panel—which might include Assembly Members—as a kind of cushion against some of the pressures that will come their way. It is hard in the current public climate in Northern Ireland to ask a single Permanent Secretary of a given department to, as it were, take on the burden of these decisions on their own because all hell will break loose, even over decisions that we consider the simplest, and the most obvious and clear-cut. There will be calls for judicial review and major public controversies. So there is a case for having some kind of advisory panel so that officials would, in effect, be able to say, “I took the advice of the advisory panel”. That is the case for this amendment, given the current public climate. When the morale of the NICS was somewhat stronger I would not have made it, but let us be clear that everyone knows—the noble Lord, Lord Empey, explained why today—that its morale at the top levels could not now be lower. That is why this is the specific moment at which to advocate this point.
I have one final point. In a slight aside, the Minister talked about the legislation as having been designed to progress public appointments that have lapsed or are not happening. One of those categories is QCs, and I wonder whether the Government have anything to say to clarify their general position on quite rightly wanting to speed up public appointments.
This is essentially a probing amendment and I am strongly in favour of the Bill in general terms. Whatever happens today, though, the Government should be very mindful of the exposed state now of those who head up, as Permanent Secretaries, the individual Northern Irish ministries.
Lord Empey
My Lords, I have Amendment 13 in this group. I am not quite sure that it sits precisely with Amendment 5. To follow up on what the noble Lord, Lord Bew, said, I asked whether senior civil servants were members of the First Division Association, the trade union for people in senior positions in the Civil Service, because these civil servants are being asked to do things that no other civil servants are being asked to do. There is a risk here that is not fully appreciated. We are taking it for granted.
The noble Lord, Lord Trimble, made the point about the law and the department being different. Here, the power is vested in the Secretary of State and back home it is vested in the department—we understand that—and a Minister’s role, when one is in place, is to direct and control the department. What we found when we had a period between devolution before—even though there was direct rule—was that civil servants ended up having to implement policies that they knew those of us who had been devolution Ministers and were again did not approve of. They were put in an embarrassing position when devolution was restored because they suddenly found they were having to work for somebody whom they had previously actively opposed. We have to understand that you cannot take a public institution such as this and simply mould it to whatever circumstances you find on a day-to-day basis. These people have a career. They do not want to get into a firefight with politicians but that is where we are pushing them. We have to be very careful.
My amendment covers audit office reports and, like everything else, these come regularly. Each year the auditor decides an agenda of what issues might come up. These reports are extremely valuable because they look at what is happening to taxpayers’ money. Incidentally, there is another big question. What happens when Sir Patrick Coghlin reports on his inquiry? Where does that go? It certainly will not go into the ether. Who will deal with it? Does the department prepare and publish a response? Will important lessons be learned from these audit office reports? We have to be careful that they do not just disappear because valuable lessons are learned from them here as well as everywhere else. I simply say to the Minister that reports should not just be in the ether, without our knowing what happens to them. It is taxpayers’ money at the end of the day and Parliament has an overall responsibility for that, even though it is devolved. I should like to think that departments will publish a response, even if it is merely to some of the technical matters that may be resolved.
I support the noble Lord, Lord Bew. Practically every week over the last couple of months, senior civil servants have been appearing in that inquiry and getting a hard time—some of them have been there for days—and coming back and revealing what has been going on. I have to say that, even though I knew things were not great, like most other people, I have been shocked by the extent of the abuses that have been allowed to take place and the culture that permitted it to happen. Huge issues need to be discussed here. In this case, I should like to think that responses to audit office reports can be published so that we can learn and, I hope, not repeat the mistakes.
Lord Murphy of Torfaen
My Lords, it has been a very interesting short debate. I think that it has to be dealt with in the context that this is a temporary arrangement. The issue at the end of the day is that if we have anything like an elaborate panel set up, it will give permanence to this totally unsatisfactory system where a part of our country is run by civil servants who are unaccountable in any way to the electorate.
My experience is that as a Minister you would have in the department a system by which you would consult civil society on various decisions that you have to make anyway—at least there should be consultation. Perhaps there is some method by which that could be made a little bit stronger, so that there is a sounding board for the civil servant. The danger always is that the civil servant will be very reluctant to take a decision that might be controversial but which is necessary. That is worth examining, but in the context that this has to be seen as a highly temporary arrangement. It also highlights how terribly unsatisfactory the whole situation is that we do not have a proper elected Government or Assembly in Northern Ireland.
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Bew, for his thoughtful Amendment 5, and for giving us advance notice of it. I also note the support given to the amendment by the noble Lord, Lord Empey.
I say at the outset that I appreciate the intent—seeking to give Northern Ireland civil servants some further cover. I listened very carefully to the analysis of the noble Lord, Lord Bew, of the status quo, especially on the question of morale: that was very much taken note of. I want to assure the noble Lord that we have considered options for providing support in this way to the Northern Ireland Civil Service, and will keep them under review.
The decision-making provisions in the Bill are needed urgently, and while the case could possibly be made that there would be some merit in having advice from an external body such as an advisory panel, the challenges and time commitment associated with setting one up mean that we have opted to proceed without one at this particular stage. I should say also to the noble Lord that my noble friend Lord Duncan and I have spoken in this Chamber before about the burden on civil servants, and I add my voice to the understanding that has been given today about the genuine burden that falls on the Northern Ireland Civil Service.
The amendment, however, causes problems in terms of how such a panel, if mooted, would be constituted: under what authority; how it would operate; and what would happen if it could not agree a position. I am sure that the House will understand those questions and the difficulties involved, again alongside the need for speed and urgency today. We will continue to consider carefully whether Northern Ireland civil servants need further support, and, as the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, said, it would have to be temporary. For today I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.
I turn to the second amendment in this group—Amendment 13, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Empey—which seeks to direct departments to publish their responses to the Northern Ireland Audit Office. As the noble Lord, Lord Duncan, made clear in his opening speech, the Bill and guidance are not a move to direct rule. To include this amendment in the Bill would introduce a level of formality that we believe is not appropriate and runs too close to directing Northern Ireland departments. That goes against the spirit of the guidance, which is intended to assist departments in deciding whether exercising their functions is in the public interest but does not direct them to take specific actions.
We fully recognise the importance of transparency, which is why the guidance published alongside the Bill seeks to build on the arrangements agreed with the Northern Ireland Civil Service as part of the budget. In addition to Northern Ireland Audit Office reports on budgetary matters, this guidance sets out that all reports and the respective departmental responses will be presented to the Assembly and shared with the Secretary of State, who will promptly lay these in Parliament. This effectively makes them available to the public. The Secretary of State will also now be writing to share these with the Northern Ireland political parties to encourage their scrutiny of all Northern Ireland reports and departmental responses.
The noble Lord, Lord Bew, raised the question of QC appointments. The Bill deals with the bodies that are currently considered to be the most pressing cases. Making the necessary appointments to those bodies is essential to the good governance of vital public bodies in Northern Ireland. The Bill enables the Secretary of State to extend this to other offices by regulation, and we will continue to monitor the situation and assess whether further offices—including QCs—should be included in regulation, which would then be debated by affirmative procedure.
The noble Lord, Lord Empey, raised a point about the RHI inquiry. As the noble Lord says, the inquiry is ongoing, so there is a limit to what I can say on this, as I am sure he will appreciate. However, the House will recall that it agreed legislation earlier this year for external cost-capping regulations to ensure that scheme continuity can be kept. This allows the Northern Ireland department to consult on a way forward to develop options for a longer-term solution.
I hope that this short debate will provide sufficient comfort for the noble Lord, Lord Bew, to withdraw his amendment on the basis that it is already provided for in what we are proposing.
Lord Empey
“( ) The guidance must direct the Department of Health in Northern Ireland to take all reasonable action, within the existing legal framework, to prepare to—(a) reduce waiting times and waiting lists for the provision of all health services;(b) improve the timeliness and quality of cancer treatment services, including a new cancer strategy; and(c) implement the recommendations of the Strategy for Suicide Prevention in Northern Ireland (“Protect Life 2”).”
Lord Empey
My Lords, I have raised issues pertaining to health in Northern Ireland before. I think I quoted figures before that show that, out of a population of 1.8 million, we have 280,000 people waiting for their first consultant-led out-patient appointment. Of those, approximately 90,000 are waiting over 12 months. At the end of June this year, a further 83,746 patients were waiting for admission to hospital. Of these, 18,000 had been waiting longer than a year. For performance figures for A&E, sadly we are at the bottom of the table for the whole of the United Kingdom again—not meeting any targets, but in fact at a worse level than any other part of the United Kingdom. Whichever way you look at it, this crisis in health has been building up for some time. Its origins date from before the Executive ended, because the trend had already been established, but it has now accelerated. These figures refer to the summer, and we have not even begun to get into the issue of winter pressures.
I have drawn your Lordships’ attention before to the fact that I believe that the Government should take control of health back here to Westminster on humanitarian grounds, on a temporary basis. Bear in mind that it happened with welfare reform—the decisions were taken and then the powers were sent back to Stormont. That happened because there was a political disagreement. These figures may mean a lot to somebody or they may mean nothing to anybody, but I can assure Members that what we are seeing here is real harm done to a significant number of people. That is why we really need to take action.
The problem we have at the moment with the absence of a Minister is that nobody can take long-term financial decisions. We are taking decisions within a very short timescale, and anybody who knows anything about health knows that you cannot do that. It requires time and planning and it is very inefficient if it is all done at the very last minute. A Minister could enter the scene and take decisions on even mid-term financial planning. Immediately an Executive is formed it can be taken back to Stormont. Some people say that there is a risk of creeping direct rule. I am not in favour of direct rule; I believe in devolution, but we are dealing with a magnitude of something here. There are 5,600 vacancies. Last week, I visited a hospital. One of the bays in the ward had to be closed because there were not sufficient staff.
Viscount Younger of Leckie
My Lords, these two amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Empey, seek to direct the Northern Ireland departments regarding health issues and public sector pay. As we have consistently said, the proposed legislation is not a move to direct rule, and decision-making must remain within the remit of Northern Ireland departments. To use this guidance to direct individual decisions would therefore go against this principle.
It is important that senior officers are able to apply the principles in the guidance in determining whether it is in the public interest to exercise functions. I understand the concern to ensure that effective decisions are made on the important issues of health, such as waiting lists, and public sector pay—as the noble Lord, Lord Empey, pointed out. However, as we have heard today, these are certainly not the only important—I stress that word—issues in Northern Ireland. Prioritising certain functions in the guidance could suggest that they should be followed at the expense of others. We are confident that the draft guidance as it stands allows Northern Ireland departments to exercise functions such as those raised in this amendment, although whether and how to exercise functions must remain a matter for Northern Ireland departments.
The Department of Health is already working intensively to respond to increasing demands on the Northern Ireland health service, and will continue to do all it can to uphold its duties in the public interest in this interim period. We of course recognise, however, that there are some decisions not enabled by this Bill. The Bill and guidance simply seek to enable senior officers in Northern Ireland departments to take a limited range of decisions using existing powers where it is in the public interest to do so now rather than wait for Ministers. That is in the context of providing the space and time for political talks to help restore devolved government, an issue that has been much discussed today in the Chamber.
Intervening in individual areas in this manner would be tantamount to direct rule—the noble Lord, Lord Empey, used the expression “potential creeping direct rule”—and would undermine our commitment to devolution and the Belfast agreement. The Prime Minister and the Conservative and Unionist manifesto are crystal clear that we will uphold our obligation to the people of Northern Ireland to ensure that their vital public services are protected. We have always said that we do not rule out further legislative intervention if it is necessary. I realise that my response will disappoint the noble Lord, Lord Empey—he will probably not be too surprised—but on the basis of these points I hope that he will feel able to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Empey
Before the Minister sits down, I want to say that he is not quite clear as to the Government’s exact position. He is saying that senior officers should be able to take certain decisions. Of course, this could be seen as direct rule. Look, folks, this is life—this is people’s lives here. We are not talking about a road junction or something casual. We are talking about people not being treated within any guideline that currently exists on these islands. In other words, these are to be sacrificed because of some political ideal of devolution versus creeping direct rule, or “Who are we going to annoy? We are going to annoy Sinn Féin. We are going to annoy this party or that party”.
Think of the people affected by this. This is not going to go away. It is getting worse. The statistics have been going like this not just recently, but for a long time. The suicide strategy is another one where there is total agreement. It is a big problem back home and it has not been addressed, yet everybody agrees that it should be addressed. What does it take?
I ask the Minister to clarify what he means. He thinks the guidance will allow officers to take decisions, yet on the other hand they are afraid that this would be seen as creeping direct rule. This is a qualitatively different subject matter, and it is on humanitarian grounds that I put this forward, not on a political platform.
Viscount Brookeborough (CB)
It may appear that, because the noble Lord, Lord Empey, is leading this on his own, he may not have support. I think he has support from everybody. I declare an interest in that I have had cancer of the throat. This sort of thing does not just affect the people. It affects their families and dozens of other people; it affects their friends. I feel that it affects their friends and families more because they are so worried that they cannot do anything to help, and yet the state, in the form of the National Health Service, is not helping them. Therefore, I cannot conceive that this is not in the public interest, yet the Minister is almost saying that if a senior civil servant thinks it is in the public interest he may come out in support of it.
The other point is that, on another amendment, on the PSNI, we have just spent five or six hours debating the fact that the primary aim of the Government is to restore the Assembly. Policing is absolutely vital to that, and we cannot see the police force denuded of pay or resources to achieve this end. I am afraid that all afternoon, whenever we have talked about any other part of it, the Government have been saying, “Our primary aim is to restore the Assembly”. We will not restore it without enabling our security forces, the police, to manage the day-to-day situation. The Minister should give a slightly more reassuring answer than, “We’ll post it back and see what they think about it”.
Viscount Younger of Leckie
I hope the noble Viscount does not think I said that. First, I am left in no doubt about the passion of the arguments presented by the noble Lord, Lord Empey, and by the noble Viscount in supporting him. However, I think the Committee will appreciate that there is an extremely difficult line to take. We have said that we do not wish to go down the line, whether it is creeping or not, of direct rule. On the other hand—perhaps this is what I really want to say—the reassurance has to be given from this Dispatch Box that upholding our obligation to the people of Northern Ireland is a high priority, as is ensuring that vital public services are protected. This includes the issues raised on health. We are not afraid to step in, if or when we think it is right, and we have said that we will not rule out further legislative intervention. If that is not clear enough, I have to say that this is very much a subjective decision and constantly under review. I cannot say anything more. Finally, I clarify that the Bill enables the Department of Health to take these decisions, and if the UK Government intervened to step in, it could easily be construed as direct rule. I cannot go any further to clarify that point.
Baroness O’Loan
I do not want to hold the Committee up, but I am having some difficulty. The aim of the legislation is to enable the continuity of the delivery of services, yet vital services such as our health service do not receive that attention. I do not understand what is covered by the Bill if things such as this are not.
Viscount Younger of Leckie
I hope I have made the point that health is very much a priority. I cannot say anything more. I have also attempted to define the line that we have to take, which is an extremely difficult one in the circumstances that we have been presented with. With that, I hope the noble Lord will agree to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Elton (Con)
My attention is not quite as close as it was earlier today and I did not hear my noble friend’s reply on the question of paying the police. Am I confused? I understood that Amendment 8 would enable the payment of the sums due and already agreed. I did not hear his reply to that; he may have given it, but I did not hear it.
Viscount Younger of Leckie
I am not sure I gave it, but in the interests of time, I will look over what I said and write to my noble friend to give a succinct answer.
Lord Hay of Ballyore
My Lords, we have all sympathy with what the noble Lord, Lord Empey, is trying to achieve; when it comes to health, we would all like to see waiting lists reduced in Northern Ireland, and there is cancer care and health as well—there are so many issues within health. This is putting the Minister in an awkward position. I have sympathy with what has been said in the Committee. However, I could also make a strong case for education. If you speak to many principals of schools in Northern Ireland, they will tell you that they are suffering because of the lack of budget and cannot deliver the service they want to deliver. They are even asking parents to pay for some things in their schools. Do we appoint an Education Minister temporarily? Then you will have other departments saying, “I think we need a Minister temporarily”, and you end up with direct rule. Is that what we want?
Lord Alderdice (LD)
My Lords, I have listened carefully to what colleagues from Northern Ireland said. I am no particularly strong supporter of the Government but it seems that, in a way, this debate demonstrates a kind of learned helplessness, not just of politicians in Northern Ireland but of the Civil Service. If there is a problem, it is someone else’s responsibility—such as the Government’s—to sort it out. The Bill is clearly handing power back to civil servants in Northern Ireland and saying, “You’re covered for making any kind of reasonable decision; that’s not a legal problem now. And by the way, if the politicians in Northern Ireland would get their act together and go back, that would rather help things as well”.
What I am hearing is people trying to pass it back and say, “Come and sort the whole thing out but, by the way, we know that that will disrupt all kinds of agreements we have reached—the Good Friday agreement and so on”. I say to colleagues, in fairness, what the Government are trying to do is to give people the legal cover to do what is necessary. That includes senior civil servants in Northern Ireland, who have not covered themselves in glory over the RHI scheme or anything else. This is a chance for them to take responsibility and actually do the governing work that they need to do, and that we all need them to do. To that extent, I hope we can move on with some acceptance of what the Government are trying to do, albeit that it is not as satisfactory as we would all like it to be.
Lord Empey
My Lords, I know the noble Lord, Lord Hay, mentioned education—we could all mention that—but there is a qualitative difference between something affecting life and something affecting bad administration. I need to read Hansard—I am not particularly clear on what the Minister means by his decisions—but I will read it. I assure him that if things continue to deteriorate in that area as they have been, I will certainly be holding his feet to the fire. There will be other opportunities; I am not going to let this drop. Having said that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
“( ) The guidance shall provide for senior officials of Northern Ireland Departments to report to the Secretary of State at the end of every six month period, beginning with the day on which this section comes into force, on which recommendations of the Report of the Inquiry into Hyponatremia-related Deaths—(a) have been implemented,(b) are being considered and the process by which they are being considered, or(c) have been rejected and why they have been rejected.”
Baroness Smith of Basildon
My Lords, I rise to move Amendment 9 on the hyponatremia inquiry, which may not be something that is well known to many noble Lords, but I have to tell the House that I have special interest in this issue. As a direct rule Minister in Northern Ireland and Minster for Health, I announced the setting up of this independent public inquiry on 18 November 2004. It was to be chaired by a highly regarded QC, Mr John O’Hara, now Mr Justice O’Hara.
For background information, hyponatremia is a condition where the concentration of sodium in the blood falls below safe levels. It can occur for different reasons: it may be that somebody has been vomiting or has diarrhoea and needs to be rehydrated. In hospital, where patients’ fluids are monitored, it is a preventable condition.
The inquiry was started because five children were identified who had died in hospital. They were Adam Strain, aged four; Claire Roberts, aged nine; Raychel Ferguson, also aged nine; Lucy Crawford, aged just 17 months; and 15 year-old Conor Mitchell. The deaths of Adam and Claire, the events following Lucy’s death, Raychel’s case and the issues presented by Conor’s treatment were all investigated by this inquiry.
Surely, there can be no greater or more painful loss for a family than that of a child. When this happens in hospital and that child was receiving treatment, a fundamental role for any inquiry has to be to understand precisely what happened both before and after, and to give recommendations for future actions to prevent something like that ever happening again. The inquiry, announced in 2004, was originally delayed because of police investigations. For other reasons, the report of inquiry was not published until January this year, nearly 14 years after I initiated it. That report has 96 recommendations. I have just re-read large parts of the report before the debate today, and in places it makes grim and very sad reading.
I want to refer to two key aspects that Mr Justice O’Hara identified, and they will form the background to my explanation for bringing this amendment before us tonight. The first is the number of errors made in treating the children, which, rightly, have been very carefully and painstakingly investigated and recorded. The second is the unacceptable difficulties in getting witnesses to be open and frank. In places, Mr Justice O’Hara refers to what he calls “unsatisfactory evidence”, with an attitude of deceit and defensiveness. He describes this as “frustrating and depressing”. That led to his first recommendation being a “statutory duty of candour”—in other words, a legal duty to tell the truth—and there are 95 other recommendations.
My amendment is about the implementation of those recommendations and to ask what has happened since that report was produced in the absence of a Northern Ireland Assembly, an Executive or Ministers to consider them and take action. Paragraph 1.70 of Mr Justice O’Hara’s report said:
“It is for the Department of Health to take them forward. Many will doubtless require significant detailed consideration to enable implementation. I expect the Department to indicate not only which of my recommendations it accepts but also to make clear how and when implementation is to be achieved. Further and subsequent reports should then be made detailing progress towards implementation with a final published confirmation of same”.
So Mr Justice O’Hara and his team took on this inquiry and made their report with every expectation that it would be properly considered and acted on, and the purpose of my amendment is to ensure progress.
In the intervening years since 2004, I would have expected that, as problems were identified, some of those recommendations would already have been evident and acted on, with new systems and practices being put in place, but we just do not know. Also, some recommendations—particularly the statutory duty of candour—require political decisions. Others might need political direction in terms of funding and others will be purely clinical.
Given the difficulties faced in the 14 years before the inquiry was able to complete and publish its investigations, what is needed now is a totally transparent and open process. However, the difficulty is that, because there is no Assembly and no Ministers or Executive, we do not know what progress has been made and there is no political direction. It seems wrong that a lack of political responsibility in Northern Ireland, with no Ministers and no Assembly, should prevent action, and prevent those concerned—particularly the families of the children I have mentioned—knowing what action is being taken. Even the Lord Chief Justice of Northern Ireland, Sir Declan Morgan, has described the situation as “shocking” and “appalling”. Ideally, local Ministers—I think there is also a role for a Stormont health committee here—should deal with this as a matter of urgency.
Therefore, my amendment provides for the Secretary of State to bring some humanity to this issue and to seek six-monthly reports with updates on progress—the amendment details the kinds of updates that we are seeking—so that the people of Northern Ireland can be confident that there is some political oversight and openness about what happens now. Whatever the political situation in Northern Ireland, this is too important a report to allow it just to fade away.
I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, for his amendment, and I know that he supports my amendment as well. I am also grateful to the Minister for the discussions that he and I have had on this issue. I know that he recognises the importance of and urgency behind it. I have had a letter from him this evening which indicates to me that, in so far as the limitations of this legislation allow, he is looking to see what can be done, and I shall be grateful if he can put that on the record tonight.
This matter is key. The families of these children are desperate to know what is happening and how progress will be made. In asking the Minister to respond and outline the commitments that he has been able to make to me in the letter so that they are on the record, perhaps I may press him a little further. In his letter to me, he says that he will seek that information at regular six-monthly intervals from the Department of Health. What is his expectation of the department’s responding? We need some expectation that it is going to respond and is prepared to do so. I note also that the Permanent Secretary of the Department of Health, Richard Pengelly, is prepared to meet with the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, and myself to discuss the issue. I hope the Minister can endorse the comments in his letter and explain what this House would expect. It is difficult—we understand that the Government do not want to have direct rule creep towards it, as it were—but unless there is some political responsibility, who else do the families have to turn to in order to see that justice is done and this report’s recommendations are seriously considered and implemented? I beg to move.
Lord Bruce of Bennachie
My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, who brings her first-hand experience to this amendment, which I have also tabled, and has given us in detail the history of this very sad set of circumstances involving children who appear to have died in circumstances of negligence within the health service. The fact that it took so many years is in itself a problem, but I do not need to reiterate what has been said.
I noted that on Friday the Lord Chief Justice of Northern Ireland, Sir Declan Morgan, said that it was “shocking” and “appalling” that the inquiry recommendations could be fully implemented because of the lack of an Executive in Northern Ireland. In particular, legislation is needed to introduce a legally enforceable duty of candour—a key recommendation of the inquiry. In light of our debates, I wonder how many times politicians in this House or in Northern Ireland are going to be saying to the public in Northern Ireland, their constituents and voters,“We can’t do anything because we don’t have an Executive”, and at what point the people themselves will say, “When on earth are you going to do something for us?”. They are living in a democratic and political vacuum, with no time limit. I take the point about direct rule, but it is heartless to say to people that we had an inquiry, we got recommendations, but because of political incompetence—the mildest way you could describe it—there is nothing we can do. I hope that the Minister can give some reassurance that this vacuum can be at least partially filled.
Viscount Younger of Leckie
My Lords, when I knew I was going to give some relief to my noble friend Lord Duncan in responding, I wanted to look up what hyponatremia actually means, and what happens to your body when it is low on sodium. I wanted to add a little to what the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, said. Low blood sodium hyponatremia occurs when you have an abnormally low amount of sodium in your blood, or when you have too much water in your blood. Signs and symptoms of hyponatremia can include altered personality, lethargy and confusion. Severe hyponatremia can cause seizures, coma and even death—so I am left in no doubt about the seriousness of this particular matter.
Amendment 9 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, and Amendment 12 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, provide that the guidance should require Northern Ireland departments to update the Secretary of State to implement the recommendation of an important inquiry into hyponatremia that reported earlier this year. As has been said, the proposed legislation is not a move to direct rule. Northern Ireland departments are not subject to the direction and control of the Secretary of State. As a consequence, to have this requirement on the Northern Ireland Department of Health to report to the Government in such a way on the face of the Bill is not consistent with the aim and intention of the guidance, which is to provide guidance as to the exercise of functions in the public interest, not to direct specific action. To use this guidance to direct individual decisions or to seek to introduce formal reporting mechanisms would therefore go against this principle.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
I am grateful to the noble Viscount. I was rather surprised that he answered; I had expected the noble Lord, Lord Duncan, to respond as the letter is from him. Could I have one clarification? In the letter to me from the noble Lord, Lord Duncan, he said that he would be writing personally. The noble Viscount, Lord Younger of Leckie, said that the Government will write. This has to be done at ministerial, not official, level. Will he confirm that to me?
Viscount Younger of Leckie
I can give a complete reassurance to the noble Baroness on that basis. It might be a good idea if I can commit that my noble friend Lord Duncan will write to her. I will also put my name on that letter.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
No, the noble Lord, Lord Duncan, has already written to me and I am happy with the letter he sent. I want to confirm that the letter to the Department of Health in which the noble Lord, Lord Duncan, will seek at six-monthly intervals to get an update, which the Minister has said the Department of Health will respond to, will be a letter from a Minister, not an official.
Lord Duncan of Springbank
I was having a bit of a breather, but I am very happy to confirm that. It is important that we do this—absolutely essential.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
I am grateful to the noble Lord. I understand and appreciate the time that he has invested in this. He has been very generous with his time and his views. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Adonis
“( ) The guidance may direct departments after 1 May 2019 not to enforce sections 58 and 59 of the Offences Against the Person Act 1861.”
Lord Adonis
My Lords, in moving Amendment 10 I shall speak also to Amendment 11. The intent of these amendments, although they had to be drafted in a more complex way, is very simple: if the Northern Ireland Assembly has not legislated for equal marriage and abortion rights in Northern Ireland by next May, equal marriage and abortion should, by the authority of this Parliament, be made legal in Northern Ireland next May.
I do not intend at this late hour to press this matter to a vote, but my first comment is that I believe, based on the balance of parliamentary opinion in this House and the other House, that if the Northern Ireland Assembly does not move to address these basic issues of civil rights over the next year or so, Parliament will be left with little choice but to act in this manner. Particularly on the basis of the vote held in the House of Commons last week, where there was a majority of 100 in favour of Stella Creasy’s amendment, the intent of which was clearly that abortion and equal marriage should be legalised, although it is not possible to do it through this Bill, I believe that it is the very clear view of the House of Commons that it would move pretty swiftly in that direction if the Northern Ireland Assembly does not.
Clearly, this needs to be reconciled, if possible, with devolution. The right way to do that is to give the opportunity for a new Executive to be formed in Northern Ireland and for the Northern Ireland Assembly to consider this issue, in the expectation that Northern Ireland will not remain the only part of the British Isles where equal marriage and abortion rights are not recognised. It is my belief, however—and I can only express my view—that if the Northern Ireland Assembly is not prepared to act in that regard, the Parliament of the United Kingdom will be obliged to do so in due course. Sending that message out from this House is quite an important signal to politicians in Northern Ireland that there is really not an option for Northern Ireland to continue for any long period of time to deny what many of us would regard as fundamental human rights.
Lord Trimble (Con)
I have a simple point. I am sorry to repeat myself from earlier on today, but abortion is legal in Northern Ireland. There is only one small point of difference in the law between Northern Ireland and England and Wales. Therefore, to talk about denial or otherwise is wrong: it is not a matter of law. The problems lie elsewhere.
Lord Adonis
My Lords, your Lordships will be very open to different ways of resolving this issue, but it is a fact at the moment that some 28 women a week travel from Northern Ireland to Great Britain for the purpose of having an abortion, because it is not possible to access these services in Northern Ireland. So whether it is theoretically legal or not, women in Northern Ireland are not able to access these services at the moment, so to all intents and purposes abortion is not available to them.
Lord Adonis
It is not a different matter in terms of the impact on the women affected. This is surely the fundamental issue.
Lord Adonis
I am entirely open to the solutions being found in Northern Ireland, but if those solutions are not found, the only course open to this Parliament is to change the law. The reason that I speak in such direct terms is that it is very important to be able to offer assurances to the people of Northern Ireland themselves that this Parliament is not prepared to allow this abuse of civil rights to continue for any substantial further period. That appears to be in line with majority opinion in Northern Ireland itself. An Amnesty International poll taken earlier this year showed that 65% of people in Northern Ireland think that abortion should be decriminalised and 66% think that Westminster should act in the absence of the Assembly.
Baroness O’Loan
Is the noble Lord aware that Amnesty is promoting abortion in Northern Ireland, hence the results?
Lord Adonis
My Lords, that in no way invalidates the findings. Those figures are from a poll; they do not represent Amnesty’s own view. A Sky News poll earlier this year found that 76% of people in Northern Ireland support an equal marriage law, and also wish this Parliament to carry such a law if it is not carried in Northern Ireland. I state all this because this is the situation as I see it. My own view is that we are not standing by the people of Northern Ireland in guaranteeing these basic rights at the moment. If I was the responsible Minister, I would think very seriously about seeking to change the law now, but, because of the great respect that I have for the devolution settlement and the Good Friday agreement, it is right that we should allow one last opportunity for the devolved institutions of Northern Ireland to resolve these issues of fundamental rights. If they are unable to resolve them, I do not believe that there is any realistic alternative to this Parliament doing so at some early date.
Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)
I do not know whether the noble Lord was present earlier to hear the noble Baroness, Lady Stroud, challenge the poll to which he referred. I draw his attention to the ComRes poll that was carried out only last week in Northern Ireland. It found that 64% of the general population and 66% of women in Northern Ireland agreed that changing the law on this issue should be a decision for the people of Northern Ireland and their elected representatives. It also found that 70% of 18 to 30 year-olds agreed that Westminster should not dictate that change to them.
Baroness Barker (LD)
Will the noble Lord, Lord Alton, say who commissioned the poll from ComRes and make available the questions so that the House can see them?
Viscount Younger of Leckie
My Lords, for clarity, we should allow the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, to finish his speech. There have been a number of interventions and I am sure other Peers will have a chance to intervene afterwards.
Lord Adonis
My Lords, my response to the noble Lord, Lord Alton, is that of course the devolved institutions are not even sitting in Northern Ireland at the moment, so we face two issues in this respect. The first is that the Northern Ireland Assembly should be given an opportunity to address this matter. Clearly, it does not have that opportunity at the moment because it is not sitting. The Bill seeks to ensure that the Northern Ireland Assembly does sit and is sustaining an Executive by the end of next March. The second point concerns the situation if the Assembly is not, even when it is sitting, able to address this issue, I do not believe it is consistent with the poll that the noble Lord has just cited that the people of Northern Ireland would regard it as satisfactory for the Assembly in Northern Ireland not to address this issue of fundamental rights. One way or another, in a short time, this issue must be resolved. It will not be satisfactory either for the Assembly in Northern Ireland to fail to address this issue or for this Parliament to allow fundamental breaches of civil rights to take place in a substantial part of the United Kingdom. I beg to move.
Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con)
My Lords, my Amendment 16 has the honour to be joined to the two amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, Amendments 10 and 11. It seems to me that Amendment 10 breaches a fundamental aspect of the constitution, namely that it is not right for anyone not connected with the prosecution to intervene to alter or to direct a prosecution decision. That is what Amendment 10 does. Amendment 11 again breaches the constitutional rule that our judiciary is not to be directed by departmental guidance. The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland has no authority whatever to direct the prosecuting authorities in Northern Ireland not to prosecute existing statutory provisions there, and certainly no authority to order the judiciary in Northern Ireland not to obey a part of the rule that is there already.
Amendment 16, which was passed in the House of Commons, is intended to deal with both matters as the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, has explained them. It seeks to get the Secretary of State to issue guidance, which will have effect as they wish, but the amendment is so drawn that it does not specify that the guidance has to be of a particular kind. It is obvious from the way it was introduced in the Commons that that is what they would like to see, but the amendment does not require the Secretary of State to do anything that is unconstitutional or wrong. That is why, as far as I am concerned, I shall not press the amendment. It is a matter that was decided on a free vote, on the issue of abortion—which is always subject to a free vote in both Houses of Parliament—and therefore I shall not press it to a Division. However, I thought it might be necessary to have further discussion on it. Having regard to the amount of discussion that took place at Second Reading, it may not be necessary to do more than introduce it and see whether anybody wants to speak.
As for the first two amendments, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, these are quite unconstitutional. Indeed, the first, on interference in a prosecution, was a constitutional disaster in, I think, the 1920s, and as a result the constitution of the United Kingdom has not had the law officers be part of the Cabinet ever since. Decisions about prosecution are not Cabinet decisions; they are the responsibility of the law officers. In Northern Ireland, in the present situation, the Director of Public Prosecutions is the authority. Nobody has authority under our constitution to tell him what to do in relation to an existing law. The amendment is framed on the basis that this is still an existing law not to be enforced by the department. That is a completely unlawful order. The Secretary of State would be quite wrong to give guidance on that aspect in Amendment 10, and in relation to the judiciary in Amendment 11.
Amendment 16, which I have tabled, is the way that the House of Commons decided to deal with this same matter, which the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, will improve on with his amendments. The Commons agreed the amendment by a majority of about 100. As far as I am concerned, it can stand, because it does not direct the Secretary of State to do anything unlawful. It obviously hopes that the Secretary of State may manage to do something that the Commons had not quite thought of how to do itself. Anyway, that is the way it is. There is no attempt in Clause 4, as it is now as part of the Bill, to direct the Secretary of State to do anything that is necessarily unlawful.
Baroness O’Loan
My Lords, I put my name to Amendment 16. I should like to speak to it and, briefly, to Amendments 10 and 11.
I have no doubt that the ultimate purpose of Clause 4 and Amendments 10 and 11 is to change Northern Ireland and United Kingdom law by decriminalising abortion. This would mean that abortion would cease to be illegal in all circumstances. That means that any baby, at any stage of gestation, right up to birth, could be aborted. No human right exists to do that. I think noble Lords would wish to accept that that, at least, is true. There is no human right to abort babies as described. To decriminalise abortion would be, to my mind, the act of an uncivilised society.
We do not have any declaration of incompatibility. If we had such a declaration, it would not change primary legislation, nor would it create an imperative for changing primary legislation. The law is provided for in Section 4 of the Human Rights Act, which says:
“A declaration … does not affect the validity, continuing operation or enforcement of”,
any provision, and,
“is not binding on the parties”,
to the action. The effect of a declaration of incompatibility, which we do not have, would be not to change the law, but to ask the Northern Ireland Assembly to think about changing the law. Having considered a declaration of incompatibility, were one to exist, the Government would have the option to do nothing. The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Hale, in her Supreme Court judgment, said that Strasbourg would have regarded doing nothing,
“as within the UK’s margin of appreciation. It is at this point that the democratic will, as expressed through the elected representatives of the people, rules the day”.
The Secretary of State is the representative of the UK Executive. She is not the Northern Ireland legislature for any purpose of considering a change in the law. It is not for the Secretary of State to assume the role of the Northern Ireland Assembly to change primary legislation—nor has she indicated any wish to do so—or to issue new guidance pursuant to primary legislation.
Since health and justice are devolved matters, since this Bill does not change the law on abortion in Northern Ireland, and since the courts have no power to change the law in this respect in Northern Ireland and have not done so, the law stands. Since the matters referred to in Clause 4 and Amendments 10 and 11 are matters of law in Northern Ireland, and since only the legislature in Northern Ireland may make law in respect of those matters, it must surely be illogical to ask the Secretary of State to issue guidance, which would be incompatible with that law.
I have nothing more to say on the matter, other than that we need to think very carefully, and that Amendments 10 and 11, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, says, direct the Secretary of State to do something that would be unlawful.
Lord Alderdice
My Lords, it may have come to your Lordships’ attention that anybody from this side of the water telling Northern Ireland politicians what to do is likely to bring about exactly the opposite result to the one they want. What is much more likely to affect Northern Ireland politicians is when their own people start to say things to them. On issues such as abortion and divorce, it is very clear that on the island of Ireland the views of the population have changed quite dramatically in a relatively short period. That is why I do not depend on opinion polls, which are notoriously unreliable in all sorts of ways, as has already been pointed out, depending on what questions you ask, in what kind of way, of what group of people at what particular stage. That is why at Second Reading I asked the Minister whether he might give consideration, at an appropriate time, to whether it would be in order under the terms of the Bill, as it has come to us from the other place, for the Secretary of State to consider recommending referendums on these two issues to be carried out with the people of Northern Ireland.
If the people of Northern Ireland said to their elected representatives, “Actually, we have a different view from the one you think we have and things have changed a lot for us in the last little while”, that would be a much more appropriate and effective way of making change, although if the people of Northern Ireland take a different view from that which might be expected, that is an important issue that must also be respected. It is not reasonable or acceptable to say that something is a devolved matter but if you do not make the decision that the people in London like we will stop it being a devolved matter. That is not a very human rights-based approach to things. But I believe that dramatic changes are taking place in the views of the people of Northern Ireland on many issues and the only way for us to become clear about that is to put it to the people in a clear fashion. I wonder whether the Minister might be able to help us on this, either tonight or in the relatively near future.
Lord Bruce of Bennachie
My Lords, my noble friend Lord Alderdice has made a fairly constructive suggestion, which has already been replicated in the Republic, with quite dramatic results. But my question relates to the amendment in the name of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay. I accept that the law is where it is and that if it is devolved, it is for the Northern Ireland Assembly, which does not exist, to change the law. However, the Supreme Court has already indicated that it questions whether or not the law in Northern Ireland is compatible with the European Convention on Human Rights, and has indicated that if an individual case was brought, it is likely to rule that it is not. In those circumstances, if a ruling was made that said that the law in Northern Ireland is not consistent with the convention, but there is no Assembly and no devolution, what is the mechanism by which the law can be changed to bring it into line with the European convention?
The issue on gay marriage could also move in that direction. It has not yet but given the acceptance of gay marriage more and more widely across the world, it may well become an issue where human rights law says that the right to gay marriage is a human right. If that became the case, somebody would need to change the law to bring it into line with the convention. In the absence of an Assembly—which would have to do it, whether it liked it or not, but is incapacitated because it does not exist—who would do it?
Lord Mackay of Clashfern
My Lords, the answer is that the Human Rights Act makes it absolutely plain that the declaration of incompatibility does not of itself change the law. If the law is to be changed, that has to be done by the appropriate legislature. In this case, because of the devolution, that would be the Assembly in Northern Ireland if it was functioning. Because of the devolution, that is the way it is: it is the Legislative Assembly that has the power to do this. There is no question of the Secretary of State being able to do it by guidance. That is out of the question. The Human Rights Act made that very plain.
There was quite an important discussion on this during the passage of the Human Rights Bill. Some people thought that the courts should be able to overrule existing statutes that were contrary to the human rights convention. But the politicians of that day, including Jack Straw, were very keen on the view that in our constitution Parliament should be supreme and the courts should not be able to overturn Acts of Parliament. That is a matter for Parliament itself. Of course, as I said at Second Reading, the great example of that in our arrangements recently has been the issue of prisoners’ voting rights because it was declared incompatible and yet Parliament decided not to change the law for some considerable number of years.
Lord Shinkwin (Con)
My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 16, in the names of my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay and the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan. I thank them for tabling the amendment because I have a direct personal interest in it, having been born with a severe disability. My objection to the current Clause 4, which I appreciate was not part of the original Bill, is twofold.
First, I object on the grounds of inequality. As noble Lords will know, I do not take a position on abortion itself, but I most definitely do take a position on disability equality. Though supposedly about advancing human rights, Clause 4 is actually about a hierarchy of human rights. It is, in effect, about denying the right to exist of, and the equality of, human beings diagnosed with a disability before birth, and ensuring that the power—dressed up as rights—of stronger human beings reigns supreme.
A world in which one group’s equality is more important than another’s is not equality; it is inequality. Clause 4, perversely, would achieve the opposite of its presumed purpose: it would entrench inequality. The argument which was advanced forcefully in the other place—that this is somehow about equality—is therefore bogus. The fact is that if Clause 4 becomes law, more human beings with my condition and other disabilities will be aborted. As it stands tonight, Northern Ireland is the safest place in our United Kingdom to be diagnosed with a disability before birth. That will change if Clause 4 is allowed to stand part of the Bill, because the presumed protection against the most lethal form of disability discrimination—death for disability—will be gone, in time.
A quick glance at the Department of Health’s own statistics tells us everything we need to know about what would happen. I wonder, would any noble Lord care to hazard a guess at the trends in disability-related terminations? Only last week noble Lords may have read about the amazing breakthrough in intra-uterine surgery on human beings diagnosed with spina bifida before birth. Indeed, human beings diagnosed with my condition—brittle bones, which put me in hospital for most of my childhood—can now be treated from the moment of birth with medicines such as bisphosphonates, to ameliorate even some of the most severe forms of the condition. Some people with my condition lead perfectly normal lives, to the extent that they can play sport.
Lord Morrow (DUP)
My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Shinkwin, on his excellent speech. I think he has captured it all here this evening, and I put on the record my appreciation of what he said.
I shall speak to Amendments 16, 10 and 11. I begin by responding to the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Adonis. I shall first touch briefly on the effect of each before reflecting on their immediate implication and then on their broader constitutional consequence. If the departments were advised not to enforce Sections 58 and 59 of the Offences Against the Person Act, it would allow abortion for absolutely any reason up until 28 weeks’ gestation. It would propel Northern Ireland from a place where it has the highest abortion legislation in the British Isles to having the loosest. In supporting this measure, parliamentarians from England, Scotland and Wales would be thrusting on Northern Ireland a far more liberal abortion law than they think appropriate for themselves. There is simply no justification whatever for this approach.
Setting aside the fact that no declaration of incompatibility was made by the Supreme Court in June—and that even if it had been, it would not have changed the law—the only criticism in the obiter comments was in relation to abortion in two very narrow contexts: first, when a baby is so severely disabled that there is a likelihood that it will die in the womb, will not survive birth or will die soon after; and, secondly, when a baby has the misfortune that the father was a rapist. This would not justify anything remotely resembling not enforcing Sections 58 and 59. Indeed, adopting such a course would be diametrically opposed to the statement by the court that Northern Ireland’s abortion law—Sections 58 and 59—is human rights compliant in prohibiting abortion on the basis of severe malformation.
The amendment is also deeply problematic because of the way in which it would expose people to the risk of prosecution. In the first instance, where these amendments would direct departments not to enforce the law, the law would remain in place. The Secretary of State would effectively be directing departments to make people aware that the law would not be enforced by them—which is likely to result in some people feeling more at liberty to break the law. This, however, would not stop private prosecutions. It is not right that we ask the Secretary of State to put officials in a position where they send out messages that are likely to result in some people breaking the law, thinking they will not end up in court when they will. This would be monstrous.
Amendment 11 is also deeply problematic. If the hope is that officials enforce Article 15 of the Matrimonial Causes (Northern Ireland) Order 1978, the amendment is misconceived. That piece of legislation relates to the conduct of judges, not departmental officials. If the hope is that officials will enforce Article 15 of the order by directing judges, that also will not work because it would contradict the principle that the judiciary is independent and not instructed by the Executive.
There is an even more profound difficulty with both amendments and their attempt to encourage the Executive to dispense with enforcement of the law. In examining them both, one cannot help but think of that very formative period in our history that, arguably, has done more than anything else to give us the constitutional system of government that we enjoy today. The Glorious Revolution was, in part, a response to the tendency of James II to dispense with the enforcement of laws—laws that remain on the statute book. His actions created a constitutional crisis that provoked the Glorious Revolution.
I know that the parallels are not exact. The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, is not a king: nor does he claim to be. He is raising this as a parliamentarian and suggesting that Parliament takes this step. However, I feel deeply uncomfortable about the idea of Parliament sanctioning one law to undermine another one that remains on the statute book. There is a real sense in which effectively he is asking Parliament for permission to overthrow the sovereignty of Parliament. This request is wrong-headed, and acceding to it would be destructive of our laws.
I support Amendment 16, in the name of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, and the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan. It seems to me that Clause 4 is one of the most problematic provisions in the Bill. Although those who secured the inclusion of Clause 4 believe that Northern Ireland’s abortion law has been declared incompatible with human rights, no such declaration has been made. Even if a declaration of incompatibility had been made, it seems that the champions of Clause 4 have completely misunderstood what it means. When a declaration of incompatibility is made, the law is not changed and does not have to change. This point is made absolutely clear by Section 4(6) of the Human Rights Act 1998. The fact that, constitutionally, a declaration of incompatibility brings with it no imperative for legal change is set out very clearly by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Hale, in paragraph 39 of her judgment in the recent Northern Ireland Supreme Court case back in June.
I now turn to examine some of the specific problems with the understanding of how the declaration of incompatibility applies in the context cited by Clause 4. The first specific example of incompatibility is set out in paragraph (a). This statement is problematic for two reasons. First, as I have already noted, no declaration of incompatibility was made; and secondly, again as already noted, the majority of the noble and learned Baroness’s commentary in the Supreme Court judgment also questioned the balance struck by the law in Northern Ireland in two very narrow contexts—foetal abnormality and rape. The commentary did not provide any justification for suggesting a general problem with Sections 58 and 59 of the Offences against the Person Act. Repealing Sections 58 and 59 would result not simply in adjusting the balance of rights in relation to those two specific contexts, but instead would permit abortion on demand for any reason up to 28 weeks’ gestation. The idea that the majority of her commentary suggests a problem with Sections 58 and 59 of the Offences against the Person Act per se is extraordinary. Subsection (1)(b) is equally confusing.
It is plain wrong to suggest that the Supreme Court has identified any human rights problem with Article 6(6)(e) of the Marriage (Northern Ireland) Order 2003. There is a challenge to that provision before the Northern Ireland Court of Appeal, the case having already been rejected by the High Court. To date, however, the definition of marriage has not been considered by the Supreme Court.
Having considered the immediate problems with both provisions, I now turn to the wider constitutional point. It cannot be right to require the Secretary of State to produce guidance for officials that has the potential to critique or undermine existing legislation. The only guidance that it would be proper for the Secretary of State to provide, mindful of Section 4(6) and Section 6 of the Human Rights Act, is guidance that upholds current primary legislation unless and until it changes. For the Secretary of State to do anything else would undermine the rule of law.
Mindful of this I have asked the Minister for an assurance that any guidance issued under Clause 4 will make plain, first, that even binding declarations of incompatibility do not have the effect of changing the law or of creating a legal imperative requiring the law to be changed in line with Section 4(6) of the Human Rights Act; and secondly, that no convention right can negate contrary to domestic legislative obligations in line with Section 6 of the Human Rights Act. Unless and until such a time as the law is changed, any guidance provided by the Secretary of State must require officials to uphold that law as it stands.
Lord Cashman (Lab)
My Lords, I speak in favour of the principles outlined by my noble friend Lord Adonis in Amendments 10 and 11, and against Amendment 16. I will be very brief indeed. Basically I am speaking in defence of Clause 4 because I believe that I have listened to a misrepresentation of that clause. For me it is as simple as this: the women of Northern Ireland and the lesbian, gay and bisexual people of Northern Ireland should be afforded exactly the same rights and opportunities as other citizens across the rest of the United Kingdom, and no one should face discrimination based on where they were born or where they now live. For those reasons, I support my noble friend’s amendments, but particularly Clause 4 as it stands.
Lord Browne of Belmont (DUP)
My Lords, I have listened very carefully to the wise words spoken by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, so I very much welcome Amendment 16. I want to say a few words about Clause 4. The architects of Clause 4 in the other place were very clever, and I pay tribute to their ingenuity. The word “functions” is dropped into Clause 4 in an attempt to make it fit, but it is no more than a fig leaf. Clause 4 is not about functions; it is about policy. This is not the appropriate legislative vehicle for this clause, touching as it does on sensitive issues that are highly controversial, particularly in Northern Ireland.
Regardless of our views on abortion and marriage—and there is a divergence of views right across this House—we can surely agree that they are issues deserving of proper attention and debate. A clause of this kind in a Bill of this kind does not provide that opportunity. What we have here, I rather suspect, is an attempt to change the law through guidance. It cannot work—any change would require legislation—but it is seeking to influence key devolved policy matters that should be decided by a Northern Ireland Executive and Assembly. It is proper for those matters to be dealt with by the devolved institutions. Northern Ireland is the most recent part of the UK to vote on abortion law. In 2016 a clear majority of Assembly Members voted to retain the current law. We should be very wary of undermining devolution, or being seen to undermine it. There is a risk that this clause creates a dangerous precedent for interference that could have wider consequences for our constitutional arrangements. Clause 4 is inappropriate, poorly drafted and should have no place in this Bill.
Baroness Barker
The noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, and the noble Lord, Lord Alton, have repeatedly said that there is no right to abortion, but your Lordships will know that time and again international courts and the UN have agreed that access to abortion is a right under Article 8. There are many rights that are not set out specifically in the convention, but the right to privacy and the right to family life are inextricably linked to control over one’s body and reproductive rights.
Therefore, I ask your Lordships to vote against the amendment of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, if it is put a vote, which I hope it is not. It inserts a reference to Section 6 of the Human Rights Act, and that is designed to constrain what the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland could include in guidance. That would be most likely used to declare that the current criminalisation of women who end their own pregnancies in Northern Ireland is acceptable under human rights law, because it is as a result of one or more of the provisions of primary legislation and the authority could not have acted differently. Specifically mentioning Section 6 of the Human Rights Act could require that guidance be issued that knowingly contravenes Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights—the right to privacy and family life. There have been many mentions of the court case in June, and we know that there will be a case before the Supreme Court later this year. It is important, therefore, that the guidance issued in Northern Ireland is sufficiently up to date to ensure that the men and women of Northern Ireland do not lose the access to human rights that the rest of us have.
This is a wrecking amendment, it would overturn the decision made by a majority in another place, and I hope therefore that all noble Lords will resist the amendment of the noble and learned Lord this evening.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
My Lords, I had not expected to be on so soon. Many of us in the Labour Party have some form on debating Clause 4. I am nothing if not consistent: I want to keep Clause 4. It is worth reminding ourselves what Clause 4, which was voted into the Bill by a cross-party majority of almost 100 in the House of Commons, says. It came on the back of a decision by the Supreme Court in June that Northern Ireland abortion law was “untenable and intrinsically disproportionate” in relation to rape and incest, which are criminal matters, and fatal foetal abnormality. The House of Commons looked at this issue within the confines and context of the Bill and also at gay marriage, which is possible in the rest of the UK as a result of a law passed in your Lordships’ House.
Noble Lords have rightly said that Clause 4 does not change the law but states that, in the absence of a Northern Ireland Executive to scrutinise the impact of laws on abortion and same-sex marriage in Northern Ireland and, specifically, their incompatibility with the UK’s human rights obligations, the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland is required to provide clear guidance to Northern Ireland civil servants on the operation of these laws, and to update the House each quarter on how she plans to address the laws’ impact on the UK’s human rights obligations. This is exactly what has been agreed by the House of Commons by a large majority.
I understand why the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, and the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, have brought forward this amendment. It recognises that the existing law may contravene the European Convention on Human Rights but then says that the Secretary of State can do nothing about it. That does not seem to be a position which your Lordships’ House would want to be in. Like my noble friend Lord Cashman, I understand the sentiments and principles behind the amendment in the name of my noble friend Lord Adonis. We think alike on these issues. I struggle with the concept of issuing guidance to civil servants not to enforce legislation. Guidance is not the way to do it, and that is why the House of Common has taken the approach that it has.
All noble Lords understand that these issues evoke emotional responses. They are difficult, personal issues, which is why this is a matter of conscience and there is a free vote in both Houses of Parliament. The House of Commons sought a way forward which is both proportionate and within the terms of this legislation. As I said once before within my own party: I urge your Lordships’ House to protect Clause 4.
Lord Duncan of Springbank
My Lords, this has been a thought-provoking, considered contribution to the debate this evening. At the outset, I draw the attention of the Committee back to the functioning and purpose of the Bill itself. The Bill is designed to ensure an opportunity to re-establish a functioning Executive. That is the ambition behind the Bill and its subsequent elements. A functioning Executive would go a long way to addressing the issues which have been raised this evening. We can be fairly clear that this matter most correctly rests with an Assembly in Northern Ireland.
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, has put forward an amendment and has graciously said that he will not put it to a vote. However, his contribution has allowed an open opportunity to explore each of the elements within the wider debate. The noble and learned Lord has been clear about the constitutionality of the amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Adonis. However, the purpose behind them is understood. He too was seeking to send a message with his amendments this evening. He has done that; we have heard the message.
I also listened very carefully to the impassioned remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Shinkwin; everyone here will have been moved by them and recognised the passion with which they were given. The Government have no intention of undermining or diminishing the position of persons with disabilities. That was never an attempt or an endeavour. This Bill and any guidance it puts forward would not influence Northern Ireland departments to act in any way which is not compliant with Section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998, which includes provisions to ensure equality between people with disabilities and people without disabilities. I recognise, however, exactly the points the noble Lord made, and they are perhaps for us all to reflect upon this evening. This is, as a number of noble Lords have made plain, a matter of conscience, and I have no doubt that many this evening will be considering these elements as they listen to the ongoing remarks.
I am also taken by the ideas put forth by the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice. Two things become clear to me. Public opinion is a curious thing. Sometimes we think that we know what it is, and sometimes we are wrong, but I think he is absolutely correct that there has been an evolution in public opinion within Northern Ireland. Exactly what it is and how it can be determined can be captured in snapshots of opinion polls, which are like the blink of an eye. Sometimes they change, and it is very hard to pin them down. I cannot make any commitment regarding his novel idea of referendums, but I would like to discuss that further. If he is amenable, I would like to sit down in the future to explore that very thing. However, it is of course not for this particular Bill to move that matter forward.
Baroness O'Loan
The noble Lord, Lord O’Shaughnessy, told me that the Government’s position was that there would be no move on abortion by this Parliament as long as the Northern Ireland Assembly was in devolution mode. I do not think it is helpful for the noble Lord to suggest that there be a referendum on abortion in Northern Ireland at this time of night, in this Bill. Even to discuss it, I think, is most unhelpful.
Lord Duncan of Springbank
I hope the noble Baroness will forgive me, but I disagree with her on this. I do not think that, in opening up a discussion with the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, we are doing anything other than recognising that there are challenges ahead, in respect of which this is but one opportunity to progress. It is not my intention that we will do any more than discuss this; indeed, it is far too great a discussion to have. Equally, this is perhaps not the correct Bill through which to do it, and this is not the right time of day to have such a detailed discussion.
I recognise a number of the points which were made by the noble Lords this evening. I am guided, in truth, by one simple fact. Clause 4 as drafted does not in any way instruct the Secretary of State to issue guidance to civil servants in Northern Ireland to disobey the law. It cannot do that in any way whatever. Given our earlier discussions about the challenges facing the civil service in Northern Ireland, perhaps this would be one burden too far, to try to encourage movement in that direction. Our purpose here is to ensure that, in recognising that Clause 4 came to us with overwhelming cross-party support from the other place, we acknowledge that that came from a democratic House. We must recognise what it represents and understand how best to take it forward. That is exactly what we will do, and we will do so carefully and in a very transparent manner. That is what is required from this particular clause. We will not be issuing guidance that seeks to undermine the letter of the law, in effect usurps it or changes it in any fashion whatever. We cannot and should not do that. I stress again that this is a matter correctly to be taken forward by the democratic Assembly of Northern Ireland.
On those points, my Lords, I hope that you will find it acceptable not to move your amendments to a vote.
Lord Adonis
My Lords, I assure the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, that I have no intention of becoming King James III, and can I assure the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, that I am only too well aware of the defective drafting of Amendments 10 and 11. It was no part of my purpose to abrogate the proper operation of the law. I was simply advised by the Clerks that, because of the limits of the current Bill, it was not possible to have a straightforward proposal in it to legalise abortion and equal marriage, so in order to enable a debate to take place, the amendments were moved in the form that they were. However, I recognise that the noble and learned Lord does not intend to press his amendment, and nor do I intend to press mine. As the Minister rightly said, I was simply seeking to set down a marker for what the Northern Ireland Assembly will need to deliberate on—assuming there is an Assembly. I need to say in conclusion that if there is not a Northern Ireland Assembly within a reasonable period of time, I do not see how this Parliament can abrogate its responsibility for maintaining fundamental human rights in Northern Ireland.
Lord Trimble
“(4A) If the Secretary of State deems it in the public interest for a senior officer of a Northern Ireland department to exercise a function or functions of that department during the period for forming an Executive, the Secretary of State may summon the Northern Ireland Assembly to debate the issue.(4B) A debate under subsection (4A) may not extend beyond four hours.”
Lord Trimble
My Lords, I welcome the opportunity to stand after sitting for so long. Amendment 13B, in my name, is grouped with two amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, but I see no overlap between the two. The noble Lord’s amendments relate to the early stages of the process, when the Secretary of State has to formulate and issue guidance, whereas I look beyond that to what the operation might be.
From the point when the Assembly collapsed, I turned my mind to ways in which we might get it going again or find some way of substituting, or other ways of carrying out what Northern Ireland needs. I still feel that the suggestion of the Welsh model was quite good, but it became clear that it was far too much for the Northern Ireland Office to digest and that my rather ambitious proposals would not get anywhere. I have therefore gone to the other extreme and drafted something as short and simple as can be, but which would give the opportunity for a significant step forward.
The amendment takes off from the provisions in the Bill whereby senior officials in the Northern Ireland Administration can exercise, if they think it is in the public interest, the powers that they have under the legislation, which goes right back to the 1920 Act. I took that and added to it a proposal that the Secretary of State may, where she or he is satisfied that it is in the public interest, summon the Northern Ireland Assembly to debate the issues that they have in mind. This is entirely discretionary on the part of the Secretary of State. It does not compel her to take any particular action but gives her the opportunity to bring the Northern Ireland Assembly together to discuss how the powers referred to in this legislation are carried out. That would be beneficial to the Northern Ireland Office and to the Government. They would then have the opportunity to discuss what they are doing, or to see other people discussing what they are doing at some length and, I hope, with some degree of careful examination of the matter. This would improve the quality of what has been done and, as I say, would give the opportunity to move in that way. I will not go into this in detail, but a serious debate by the elected representatives is bound to add something to the quality of the Administration and is worth having.
There is also a political aspect to this, because if we had this implemented—again, it is entirely at the discretion of the Secretary of State; I am not saying that she must do this, and it could be that it is not operated—by bringing the Northern Ireland Assembly together, we would be taking a concrete step towards it coming back as it should. It adds something to the discussions that the Government may be having in trying to persuade the parties to sort out their differences and then return to the Administration. By having it in operation, even if only for a few hours on particular issues, we would make it clear that it is possible that the Assembly can work again, and will work again. Having got that initial first step, it will be easier, I hope, to take other steps beyond that.
This is a very modest amendment and I shall not press it to a vote. It is purely discretionary; nobody is obliged to do anything with regard to it. I shall not spin out the discussion any further. I think the best thing I can do for the House tonight is to sit down and let things take their course. I beg to move.
Lord Alderdice
My Lords, there is one reason why I would support the amendment that the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, has put forward: from the beginning, the element of the Northern Ireland institutions that worked rather well was the Assembly itself. When it came to the Executive functioning, that was much more contentious and difficult, but the Assembly functioned rather well. The idea of finding ways in which the Assembly could start to meet again, to debate issues of some substance that would increase, to some extent, the accountability of the Government side—be it civil servants or others—is a good one. To simply bring the Assembly back together for one occasion to debate a contentious issue would potentially be damaging because the old splits would re-emerge. To come together on a number of occasions to debate issues that are not necessarily of high contention but are nevertheless important seems to me a good idea. Whether one follows the very specific proposal in this amendment, or some of the other ideas that the creative mind of the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, has produced over the last little while, the principle is important and merits exploration by the Government. To that extent, I support the amendment.
Lord Adonis
My Lords, I have Amendments 14 and 15 in this group. I think the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, undersold his own amendment. It seems to me that he was raising a very important principle: it should be possible for the Assembly to meet in the absence of an Executive. As somebody who looks at this from outside, it has always seemed strange to me that, because of the architecture of the Good Friday agreement, the Assembly cannot meet if it has not sustained an Executive. I do not know whether the noble Lord can tell me if it legally cannot meet. It certainly has not met in the absence of the Executive. It seems, in terms of seeking to engage the elected representatives of Northern Ireland, and encouraging them to create a context in which an Executive can be formed, what the noble Lord has proposed is extremely constructive. The Minister will be able to tell us whether legally it is possible to proceed in the way the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, has proposed. My amendments facilitate a meeting of the Assembly for the specific purpose of discussing Brexit, given that that is one of—not the only, but one of—the most important decisions that will be taken affecting Northern Ireland over the next six months. It seems highly detrimental to the people of Northern Ireland that their voice is not being taken account of in any formal way, apart from the impact that they are able to have through their elected representatives in the House of Commons. If it were possible to bring the Assembly together for the purpose of discussing Brexit in the absence of Ministers, I cannot see any good reason why that should not happen.
I understand the point that the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, has made, which is that summoning the Assembly purely for the purpose of discussing one issue—a contentious issue—may not be the best way of proceeding. Enabling the Assembly to meet to discuss a wider range of issues and issues of immediate local concern, including many that were raised at Second Reading, such as infrastructure, public services and so on in Northern Ireland, could help to inform the decisions that officials take. That would seem to be an eminently sensible way forward, and it appears to be what the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, has in mind. However, if it were legally possible for the Assembly to meet in the absence of Ministers, I would have thought that that would be an excellent way of proceeding, and my amendments would simply include Brexit among the issues that should be discussed by any such meetings of the Assembly.
Lord Empey
My Lords, there might be a couple of technical issues surrounding this. As I understand it—perhaps the Minister can confirm this—under the current law the first item of business when the Assembly meets is the election of a Speaker. The Assembly would refuse to do that under the current circumstances, so that would have to be addressed.
However, there is a wider point that I want to make. I am sure that the Minister or his predecessors have been saying for more than a year that they are prepared to think outside the box. However, this is a hermetically sealed box; it has a number of combinations on it but nobody knows what they are; and it has not been opened in the past year. Not a single idea has been brought forward. For months the noble Lords, Lord Alderdice and Lord Trimble, have been putting forward options—but they are talking to a brick wall, because the principal holy grail at the moment is, “Don’t upset the Shinners”. As long as that is the driving force, we will never move a yard forward.
So I hope that the Minister will, with the Secretary of State, genuinely be prepared to look outside the box. We will be sitting here having this conversation in several months’ time, and I do not know whether these are the right options but I think that they certainly merit discussion. The Northern Ireland Office has to start thinking outside the box. I understand that the Prime Minister and everybody else is Brexit focused. The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, rightly said that this is the biggest change that has happened to us in the last 20 years and we are out to lunch. Our voice is not being heard, yet the people of Northern Ireland will be the most directly affected. It is barking mad that we are in this position—so let us genuinely think outside the box.
I hope that when he winds up, the Minister will be able to refer back to Amendments 7 and 8, which I spoke to earlier, concerning the circumstances in which our health service and other matters could be addressed in the future. These are all parts of a bigger picture. I just hope that he will persuade his right honourable friend in the other place to start thinking outside the box, because we are trapped, it is wrong that we are trapped and people are hurting. This Parliament has a responsibility towards those people, and we are not doing our duty.
Lord Murphy of Torfaen
My Lords, I think that there is a case for putting this on the table as a matter for discussion in the forthcoming negotiations. Obviously the Good Friday agreement is a structure that means that all sorts of different organisations have to operate at the same time. You have to have an Assembly, an Executive, a north/south ministerial body and a British intergovernmental conference with the Republic of Ireland. However, the noble Lord, Lord Empey, is right: you have to think outside the box. There has to be imagination. The noble Lord, Lord Trimble, has been talking for at least a year about using what could have been the original Welsh model, when the Welsh Assembly was effectively a very large county council. It has changed considerably over the years—in my view, for the better. But that was an opportunity for elected people in Wales to get together. We have just under 100 Members of the legislative Assembly in Northern Ireland. They do not meet formally or informally. This would give them a chance to go to Stormont and talk about issues, and also talk among themselves—to start talking again—because this is all about talking in many ways.
Lord Bruce of Bennachie
Before the Minister replies, may I add that if he is minded to make a constructive response to this, might it involve scrutiny committees meeting again? That is a way of getting people to work together, and within those scrutiny committees could be a Brexit committee. The best way to break the deadlock is to get people used to the idea that they did work together and they could do it again.
Lord Hay of Ballyore (DUP)
I did not intent to speak on this particular issue, but we are talking about the Assembly meeting to discuss issues. This has already been on the table. All the other parties are keen for the Assembly to meet to discuss Brexit, and there are other serious issues that the Assembly could come together on—public representatives meeting and coming, as far as possible, to a consensus. This has been on the table for some time. All the other parties are happy to move in that direction, at least for the Assembly to meet without an Executive. The only party which has said no to that is Sinn Féin—so anything suggested this evening is already on the table, and it has failed. The noble Lord, Lord Empey, is right—why do we pander to Sinn Féin? We will never achieve what may be achieved in trying to get devolution up and running.
It is important that the Assembly does meet, even without Ministers and an Executive. That would be a start—discussing some major issues that deeply concern the people of Northern Ireland.
Lord Duncan of Springbank
My Lords, in my head I have a New Yorker cartoon of a very elegant gentleman with a cat on the floor next to its litter tray. The gentleman is pointing and saying, “Never think outside the box”.
We do need to think afresh—Amendment 13B from the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, and the other amendments from the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, do have certain impediments. The noble Lord, Lord Empey, referred to the question of the Speaker and the question of cross-party consent being one of those impediments. I do not want to end this evening’s discussion on that negative statement. Let me take away some of the ideas that have been expressed tonight. Let me think and reflect on them in discussion with my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, and let us see if we can live up to that statement of “thinking outside the box”. On that basis, I hope that noble Lords will not press their amendments.
Lord Mackay of Clashfern
Lord Mackay of Clashfern
My Lords, I said earlier that I would move this amendment, but since it has been grouped with the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, I think we have had plenty of opportunity to discuss it, so I will not move it now.
Northern Ireland (Executive Formation and Exercise of Functions) Bill
Tuesday 30th October 2018
(6 years, 1 month ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Northern Ireland (Executive Formation and Exercise of Functions) Act 2018 Read Hansard Text Amendment Paper: HL Bill 137-I(a) Amendments for Committee, supplementary to the marshalled list (PDF) - (30 Oct 2018)
Northern Ireland (Executive Formation and Exercise of Functions) Bill
Tuesday 30th October 2018
(6 years, 1 month ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Northern Ireland (Executive Formation and Exercise of Functions) Act 2018 Read Hansard Text Amendment Paper: HL Bill 137-I(a) Amendments for Committee, supplementary to the marshalled list (PDF) - (30 Oct 2018)
Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con)
My Lords, I have it in command from Her Majesty the Queen to acquaint the House that Her Majesty, having been informed of the purport of the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation and Exercise of Functions) Bill, has consented to place her prerogative, so far as it is affected by the Bill, at the disposal of Parliament for the purposes of the Bill.
Royal Assent
Thursday 1st November 2018
(6 years, 1 month ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Amendment Paper: Consideration of Bill Amendments as at 15 June 2018 - (15 Jun 2018)