Oral Answers to Questions
Andrew Western Excerpts(1 week, 6 days ago)
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Alistair Strathern (Hitchin) (Lab)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Andrew Western)
The Government keep the rates of benefits, state pensions and statutory pay under regular review. My hon. Friend will be aware that the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions announced to Parliament on 30 October that, subject to parliamentary approval, parental pay will increase in line with the consumer prices index at the rate of 1.7% from April 2025.
Alistair Strathern
The Government’s upcoming review of parental leave entitlement is really important as the UK currently has among the worst paternity leave in Europe. Recent research by the Joseph Rowntree Foundation highlighted not just the growth benefit of greater paternity leave entitlements but the benefit to workforce involvement, so will the Minister meet me and campaigners from the Dad Shift to ensure we are making the most of the opportunity to get people back into work?
Andrew Western
We value the vital role that fathers and partners play in caring for children and in supporting their partners. We recognise that parental leave and pay entitlements, such as paid paternity leave, play a key role in their ability to do that. My hon. Friend is right to cite the planned parental leave review. That is being led by colleagues in the Department for Business and Trade, and I will write to them on his behalf to suggest a meeting.
David Taylor (Hemel Hempstead) (Lab)
Ben Obese-Jecty (Huntingdon) (Con)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Andrew Western)
The CMS modernisation programme delivers increasingly effective and efficient services. The programme has transformed customer interaction with the CMS, providing customers the choice to make contact digitally. Those efficiencies make it easier for customers to report changes and non-payment, so CMS caseworkers can focus on the collection of unpaid child maintenance.
Ben Obese-Jecty
I have multiple casework examples from constituents in Huntingdon who have been impacted by CMS inefficiencies, including incorrectly calculated arrears with no explanation of how the sums have been calculated, and failure to verify the location of fathers who are not providing financial support, with the CMS claiming that addresses needed to be independently verified but not conducting that verification itself. Such cases have resulted in consolatory payments from the CMS for maladministration and service delays. In all instances, my constituents have been frustrated by their inability to contact the CMS over the phone. In the quarter ending September 2024, 41% of calls to the Child Maintenance Service were not answered. What are the Government doing to improve contact with the CMS by telephone?
Andrew Western
I am very sorry to hear of those specific examples. I will take away the point about telephone communication and come back to the hon. Gentleman, but it may be worth our having a broader conversation about his concerns. I will happily meet him to discuss any of the specifics of the cases he cited.
Graeme Downie (Dunfermline and Dollar) (Lab)
In response to a number inquiries that I have had from constituents over the last couple of months, will the Minister say whether reforms to the Child Maintenance Service will include consideration of the paying parent’s capital assets and voluntary pension payments when calculating the rate at which unpaid payments should be made?
Andrew Western
My hon. Friend raises an important point. He will be aware of the recent consultation on the future administration and operation of the Child Maintenance Service. I do not want to prejudge the decisions that will follow as a result of that consultation, but I can tell him that we are considering the next steps at present, and I will update him and the House in due course.
David Mundell (Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale) (Con)
It is now nine years since the Scotland Act 2016 transferred a swathe of welfare powers to the Scottish Government. Are Ministers in a position to give a finite date by which the Scottish Government will actually have taken on all those powers and responsibilities? That is still not the case.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Andrew Western)
As the right hon. Gentleman rightly says, a number of benefits are currently delivered under agency agreements. It is very much for the Scottish Government to broker a conversation with us about either extending those agreements or bringing them to an early conclusion. I am yet to have any such conversations, but should I have any, I will be very happy to let him know.
Ian Lavery (Blyth and Ashington) (Lab)
Lee Pitcher (Doncaster East and the Isle of Axholme) (Lab)
Andrew Western
I thank my hon. Friend for his question. The assessment I have made is of a trend that is up, up, up after 14 years of the Conservative party failing to act. We lost £9.7 billion in fraud and error in the Department for Work and Pensions last year, and we have lost £35 billion since the pandemic. That is too much, which is why I hope colleagues will support the Public Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) Bill on Second Reading later.
Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD)
Hundreds of farmers and other small business owners in Westmorland who earn less than the minimum wage are not eligible for universal credit because of the failure of that system to take account of variability of income. Will the Minister look to put that right so that we can support the people who support us?
Damien Egan (Bristol North East) (Lab)
During covid, assessments for personal independence payments were moved either online or to over the phone. Today less than 5% of those assessments have returned to face-to-face, so what assessment have Ministers made of that change and are there any links with the rise in fraud?
Andrew Western
My hon. Friend is right to identify that in the PIP space the Department has introduced a blend of phone, video and face-to-face assessments with the aim of delivering a more efficient and user-centred service. Since telephone and video assessments have been introduced there has been no evidence to suggest that these delivery channels are less effective than face-to-face assessments in detecting fraudulent claims. In 2023-24, PIP overpayments accounted for just 0.4% of the DWP’s overall spend on PIP but I assure my hon. Friend we will keep a close eye on that.
Luke Taylor (Sutton and Cheam) (LD)
Marie Curie research has found that 15% of the three quarters of a million end-of-life carers are living below the poverty line, rising to 22% a year after bereavement. Given these statistics, will the Minister consider extending the time that carers can claim carer’s allowance from two months to six months after bereavement?
Public Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) Bill
Andrew Western ExcerptsMonday 3rd February 2025
(1 week, 6 days ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Public Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) Bill 2024-26 View all Public Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) Bill 2024-26 Debates Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Kirsty Blackman (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
I want to comment on a number of speeches that have been made. As the Scottish National party tabled a reasoned amendment, which unfortunately did not get selected, it will not surprise anyone that we have a number of significant problems with the Bill.
Part 1 of the Bill relates to recovering the covid moneys and the services and goods that the Government received that were substandard, for which organisations need to pay the Government back. Since its scope does not extend to Scotland, I will not add many comments, except to note that I have a long track record of bringing up covid fraud, particularly PPE frauds, in this Chamber. I will support the Government’s work to recoup the money that was fraudulently taken in Government contracts that did not deliver.
I oppose the DWP elements of the Bill, which are not what social security should be about. As my friend, the hon. Member for Brighton Pavilion (Siân Berry), said, the social security system should be built on dignity and respect. Very few Members have said that we should have a social security system that works. Members have talked about tightening up eligibility criteria. Last week, people talked about the number of scroungers that there are—people not in work who are claiming social security benefits—and how desperately we must get them back to work. People should have opportunities, but it is also important that we have a social security system that catches people and supports them when they are not able to access those opportunities, because they are struggling with their physical or mental health or have learning difficulties. We need a social security system that works.
I have asked the Minister on a couple of occasions about co-production, which an hon. Member also mentioned. Co-production is needed when it comes to changes to disability benefits. If the Government are to reduce the amount of money being paid out for disability and sickness benefits, they must work hand in hand with disabled people. They must not just say, “We are going to reduce it by this amount.” They need to sit round the table with disabled people to have those conversations and to make clear what changes they want.
In Scotland, we have reformed the previous PIP system to create the adult disability payment and child disability payment. I used to get a number of emails and people walking through my door who were terrified about their upcoming PIP assessment—having to fill in those forms again, and sit and write a long list of the normal things that their child cannot do, on an annual basis. We have changed that in Scotland. We do not have regular assessments. If someone has a longer-term condition, they do not have to go through that awful situation on an annual basis. The Government need to focus on dignity, respect and co-production. That should be way ahead of conversations around fraud.
It is important that the social security system, the procurement system and the tax system do not propagate fraud. As has been mentioned a number of times by Members from across the Chamber, the tax system creates a huge amount more fraud and a huge amount more could be recouped from that than from the social security system.
I have major concerns about how the Government are approaching the issue. Why are they introducing this Bill before the child poverty strategy? Why is this more of a priority than cancelling the two-child cap and taking kids out of poverty? Why are the Government talking about nearly £10 billion a year owed to the DWP? Just to be clear, that is not what they intend to recoup. According to the impact assessment, at least 30% will be written off, so £10 billion is a misleading figure. It might be the total amount of fraud and error, but it is not what the Government expect to get back. It does not take into account that they will spend £420 million over the next few years just to increase the number of staff or the costs of the eligibility criteria. It is also not a net figure—it is just the headline figure right now. All the work being done on the legislation is to recoup a fairly insignificant amount of money, but it will put people through absolute hell.
As has been said, the Bill will treat people as guilty rather than begin from the point of view that they are innocent. Potentially, it will put every person applying for benefits through an eligibility check through their bank. It will put them under surveillance in a way that is not compatible with the human rights that we should all expect. Let us remember that we are talking about people who, in some cases, are incredibly vulnerable, and may have their driving licence taken away.
The hon. Member for Normanton and Hemsworth (Jon Trickett) talked about two of his constituents who found themselves in a difficult situation and who did not have a huge amount of literacy. It is possible that one of those people could have had a driving licence. For disabled people, a car can be an lifeline—the most important thing. For people with mental health problems, opening letters can be really difficult. People might not engage with the DWP through no fault of their own, but because they are not getting the mental health support that they need.
That £10 billion or however much will be recouped will not fix mental health services to ensure that everyone is capable of getting up in the morning, having their breakfast, having a shower and opening the letters in scary, big writing that have come through the door. It will not ensure that people can engage in that system. It will not teach them to read and write—they may not be capable of that. I share the concerns of other Members that, for some individuals, the powers of recouping and of revoking a driving licence are entirely inappropriate. We have not had enough reassurances on that.
My concerns about the Information Commissioner are still extant. The Secretary of State said that she has had a letter from the Information Commissioner. I understand that it is probably not her fault, but I am really disappointed that we have not seen that letter in advance of today—[Interruption.] I am being told that it is being published.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Andrew Western)
It is on the ICO website.
Kirsty Blackman
Unfortunately, I have not seen it because I was not aware of its publication until the Secretary of State stood on her feet. It would have been helpful for Members to have been given that information beforehand, so that we could have read the Information Commissioner’s comments in advance of Second Reading, given a number of us have mentioned the significant concerns of the Information Commissioner in relation to the previous Bill.
The Secretary of State said that the Bill is tough and fair. Another Member talked about tax and benefit fraud, and the issue with the DWP making overpayments. They suggested that this new system will ensure that overpayments are caught earlier. I suggest that that is a tad over-optimistic. The DWP makes mistakes and makes overpayments, and now we are giving it another place to make errors. The DWP can now see into people’s bank accounts and say, “You don’t meet the eligibility criteria, so you won’t be getting the social security payment.” Until we have built up much a higher level of trust, most people will assume that these powers will create more errors in the system, rather than reduce them.
Lastly, on a subject that I mentioned earlier, a massive number of disabled people have no trust in the social security system. They are massively concerned about the cuts coming down the line and concerned in particular that they will bear the brunt of those cuts, given the comments from so many politicians, using the word “scroungers” and talking about people fraudulently claiming benefits.
Despite the fact that the hon. Member for Hendon (David Pinto-Duschinsky) very helpfully laid out the figures on every pound claimed fraudulently, which I genuinely thought was very helpful, disabled people feel that they are being lumped in with the entire group of people claiming fraudulently—whether they can or cannot work, whether they are being paid universal credit or PIP to assist them with their work, and whether they have a helpful employer or have not been able to find one.
People feel they are being demonised by politicians simply for claiming social security, which they are entitled to. Until that trust is rebuilt, making the decision to look at their bank accounts, as in these measures, is the absolute wrong decision. The Government need to do what they can to put dignity and respect at the heart of the social security system and rebuild people’s trust in it before they introduce these sweeping, disproportionate powers.
The hon. Member for Brighton Pavilion mentioned the fact that there are so many unclaimed benefits. Surely ensuring that people have the money they are entitled to, ensuring that they have enough to live on, reducing child poverty and ensuring that not one child grows up in poverty should be more of a priority for the Government than introducing eligibility criteria and demanding that banks provide financial information on social security claimants.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Andrew Western)
I hope that the House will bear with me; I have binned my original closing speech, given the number of contributions that we have heard, and some of the legitimate questions and concerns that colleagues have set out. I thank those colleagues who rightly highlighted the scale of the challenge, and why the Government must act to tackle fraud against the public sector. My hon. Friends the Members for Burnley (Oliver Ryan), for Clwyd North (Gill German), for Hendon (David Pinto-Duschinsky), for Doncaster Central (Sally Jameson), for Bassetlaw (Jo White) and for York Outer (Mr Charters) all set out the scale of the challenge, and the views of their constituents on this issue, in very robust terms.
I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for York Outer about the risk of unintended consequences, particularly on the issue of violence against women and girls. We are looking at that closely and will continue to do so. A number of Members referred to the alleged lack of an impact assessment, or the publication of one. An impact assessment has been published, alongside the view of the Regulatory Policy Committee, and is available for colleagues to view.
Let me turn to specific concerns about the Bill, starting with those of the shadow Secretary of State, the hon. Member for Faversham and Mid Kent (Helen Whately). I welcome the tone of the Conservatives, and their broad support for a number of the principles in the Bill. She is correct that it is incumbent on the state to get its money back. It is part of the unwritten contract that she referred to. I felt there was a slightly tenuous justification for the escalation in benefit fraud that we have seen in recent years: the war in Ukraine. I know that we are happy to blame Putin for many things, but that was a new one on me. She rightly pointed to an escalation in benefit fraud and error as a result of covid, but that does not explain why the level of fraud and error in the Department for Work and Pensions was higher in 2023-24 than in any of the years from 2021-22 onwards—£9.7 billion last year, a record level. The issue is getting worse, not better, and that happened on the Conservatives’ watch.
The shadow Secretary of State suggested that the contents of the Conservatives’ fraud plan would have solved all these problems, and that we are copying much of what was in it. It is fair to say that the Conservative party legislated only on the third-party data measure in that plan. The Conservatives never mentioned debt recovery powers, and made no efforts to get a grip on public sector fraud with the new powers that we are introducing by putting the PSFA on a statutory footing. Overall, their appalling record hardly comes as a surprise.
The shadow Secretary of State went on to say that she was concerned about the amount of information being shared by banks. Just to be clear, we will not be sharing any information with banks. The information that will come back to us will have very strict criteria, and we are taking a specific power to fine banks for oversharing information that is out of scope. She asked what testing has been done on this; two trials have been undertaken, so we know that the proposal will work, as it pertains to the eligibility verification measure.
The shadow Secretary of State went on, with some audacity, in my view, to challenge whether the debt recovery powers go far enough—powers that the Conservative party refused to take, and never put forward when they were in government. She mentioned the number of AI schemes that have been set aside. Test and learn is perfectly normal in the AI space. I remind her that some of the schemes that had not been taken forward are now moving through under different names. She mentioned the PSFA, and raised concerns about the right to compel information. The powers have independent oversight to ensure that their use is proportionate, so although no organisations are exempt, all actions are considered within a robust legal framework.
We then heard from the Conservatives, astonishingly, that there is nothing in the Bill to get a grip on the benefits bill. What cheek, when the benefits bill spiralled by some £20 billion on their watch! As for their so-called plan, I remind the shadow Secretary of State that they made a hash of it and that we lost a judicial review on their failed plan just a few weeks ago, so we will take our time to bring forward the proposals and will consult on them, and we will get this right.
I am grateful for the support of the Conservatives, but I hope that it will manifest itself in the voting Lobby later because, with the exception of the hon. Member for Mid Leicestershire (Mr Bedford), who I believe is the Parliamentary Private Secretary, we have not had a full speech from a single Conservative Member—just one intervention. If that does not show the lack of seriousness with which they take this issue, the appalling record and position we have inherited should do just that.
I want to spend a little time on the comments of the Chair of the Select Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Oldham East and Saddleworth (Debbie Abrahams), who is a champion for vulnerable people. I particularly want to speak to the measures we are taking to assure ourselves of the appropriate support for vulnerable people, both within the scope of the Bill and more generally, because that is important and relates to a number of comments from Members. It is always the Department’s priority to set repayment plans that are affordable and sustainable; that we make use of the debt respite service, Breathing Space, which allows for a temporary protection from creditors; and that we provide additional support to help customers manage their money. We work with the Money and Pensions Service under its brand name “Moneyhelper”, which offers free, independent and impartial money and debt advice. Indebted customers are routinely offered a referral, with the majority who meet the criteria taking up that offer.
In addition, a DWP debt management vulnerability framework has recently been introduced to provide guidance for advisers on how to support customers at risk of becoming vulnerable, including signposting to specialist support. That is embedded across debt management, and part of that involves advisers undertaking annual refresher training on identifying and supporting customers experiencing vulnerability. Within the scope of the Bill, it is important to recognise that the power of debt recovery will not be used on benefit claimants. It extends only to those who receive their income through means other than benefits or through payrolled employment.
There are also important safeguards in the Bill that govern the process of debt recovery and the new enforcement powers. There will be repeated efforts at contact before any enforcement action is taken, and there will be affordability checks before any deductions are taken from bank accounts. There will be limits on the size of those deductions, a right to require deduction orders and a right to appeal deduction orders beyond that. Also, the DWP can vary or suspend the deduction order following a change in circumstances.
Kirsty Blackman
I appreciate that the Government have made changes around affordability, but they still do not assess either benefit clawbacks or the deductions on the basis of whether they are actually affordable for the people having to pay them back. Are the Government planning to put that in place at some point in future?
Andrew Western
The hon. Lady will forgive me if I have not understood her correctly, but there is specific provision in the Bill on the debt recovery powers to limit the amount that can be clawed back to 40% of anybody’s capital, but if I have misunderstood that, I am happy to have a conversation with her afterwards. I hope that I have set out some of the steps we are taking in the Bill and more broadly to ensure support for vulnerable people.
The Liberal Democrat spokesperson, the hon. Member for Torbay (Steve Darling), was right to highlight the scale of covid fraud and the lack of safeguards in place to protect the public purse. He highlighted the carer’s allowance review, which will report this summer, not next, but we are already learning the lessons of that. Much like the proposals in the Bill, data is key, so we have secured funding to extend the verify earnings and pensions service system of alerts from HMRC to 100% of claims. We will ensure in this Bill that the eligibility verification measure information is processed quickly to reduce large overpayments, and to avoid a repeat of what happened on the last Government’s watch with carer’s allowance.
The hon. Member for Torbay raised the use of AI, as did my hon. Friend the Member for Oldham East and Saddleworth. There will always be a human decision maker on each of these powers, so where decisions are made, a human—not AI—will make that call. For EVM, a flag would be passed to a human to establish benefit eligibility. For debt recovery, it would be passed to a human to assess vulnerability and the ability to pay. For information gathering, it would be passed to a human for investigation where there is a suspicion of fraud. For search and seizure, a warrant would be granted by a judge. At all times, a human is making those decisions, as is right and proper, given the powers that we are talking about.
According to the hon. Member for Mid Leicestershire, there is no doubt that had the Conservatives had longer, their policies would have driven fraud down further and faster than our proposals will. Thankfully, we do not have the opportunity to test that theory. Given their appalling record—with fraud and error escalating every year since the pandemic and standing at £9.7 billion last year—I dread to think what they would have done when they turned their attention to these matters.
The hon. Member for Mid Leicestershire went on to ask whether the independent person would report on the use of powers. Yes, and those reports—on both the PSFA side and the DWP side—will be placed before Parliament annually. He asked about non-drivers and the point of suspending licences when not everybody drives. Well, short of taking the power to prevent somebody from walking, I fail to see how much further we could have gone in that regard. However, I recognise—as I hope he does—that that is only one of a suite of measures that we are considering to move us forward in the powers available to us.
Of course, it is important to recognise that the introduction of an independent person was not considered necessary by the Conservative Government in the third-party data measures that they proposed under their Data Protection and Digital Information Bill. We are introducing that measure not just for the PSFA powers or the eligibility verification measures, but for information-gathering powers and powers of search and seizure.
I understand that the hon. Member for Brighton Pavilion (Siân Berry) is concerned, but I fundamentally disagree with the idea that it is conservative to want to tackle benefit fraud, and that we should ignore the £7.4 billion-worth of welfare fraud last year. I certainly do not think that it is conservative to go after public sector fraud; in fact, if it were slightly more conservative, we might not be in the terrible position we are in now.
My hon. Friend the Member for Normanton and Hemsworth (Jon Trickett) raised a number of important questions. Time prevents me from running through them all now, but I would be delighted to meet him to discuss them further. I was especially concerned by the case that he raised. One potential benefit of the eligibility verification measure is that it will allow us to detect overpayments earlier, but clearly we want to ensure that the DWP is handling such issues correctly first time. The ICO was mentioned by a number of Members, including my hon. Friend. Just to clear that up, it was not a letter received into the Department; the ICO published on its website today its findings and thoughts on the Bill at this stage. It recognises the steps that we have taken on proportionality, and I welcome those comments.
The hon. Member for Brecon, Radnor and Cwm Tawe (David Chadwick) has concerns about banks and the potential erosion of data protection powers—that is not my view. The Bill will involve very limited data sharing. The Department for Work and Pensions is not monitoring accounts, and we will fine banks if they overshare in that space.
The hon. Member for Aberdeen North (Kirsty Blackman) made an important contribution. To clarify, the Bill is not predicated on saving £10 billion in welfare fraud; it sets out to save £1.5 billion over five years, but it is part of overall measures to save £8.6 billion over that period, because we do not accept the level of fraud in the system at present.
The hon. Member for Coventry South (Zarah Sultana) suggested that the Bill subjects millions of people to unwarranted financial surveillance. To give Members absolute clarity, we will not receive transactional information from banks, we will not look in bank accounts directly, and we will not ask banks to take decisions on whether somebody has committed fraud.
The hon. and learned Member for North Antrim (Jim Allister) raised the question of clause 50 on the PSFA side of the Bill and asked what constitutes fraud. For clarity, it is standard for powers to be taken by the Secretary of State—or a Minister in this case—but in practice, qualified and experienced decision makers will consider cases as authorised officers.
The hon. and learned Gentleman went on to raise clause 91 and the removal of driving licences. I would gently say to him that this is an existing power held by the Child Maintenance Service. The question of liable persons and whether removal is proportionate would be a matter for a judge; it would only happen after repeated attempts to secure repayment, and before any disqualification occurs, an individual will always be given the opportunity to agree a repayment plan. This is a power of last resort, but I assure the hon. and learned Gentleman that if he has specific concerns about the pursuit of fraud in Northern Ireland, I am happy to follow them up.
As always, the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) spoke from the heart about the plight of his constituents and the challenges they face. I want to assure him that this is not a Bill that is intended to focus on the low-hanging fruit of vulnerable people; that is why it includes some of the protections I set out earlier, and it is why we are putting in place independent oversight for the debt recovery and eligibility verification measures. He asked about the right of appeal, and I can confirm that the rights of review and of appeal against a ruling in the debt recovery space are written into the Bill.
The important question of appointees is one that I want to address directly, given the point that the hon. Gentleman raised about his constituent’s sister. To be very clear, that is something we had significant concerns about after the previous introduction of the third-party data measure, and the system will remove appointees. There may be circumstances in which those bank accounts need to be checked if the appointee receives benefits themselves, but if they do not, they will be screened out.
Kirsty Blackman
The individuals who are going to do the independent assessment will be appointed by the Secretary of State. Would it not be better for Parliament to agree the appointment of those individuals, so that we can be assured that they are actually independent?
Andrew Western
Clearly, we will inform Parliament as to who that will be, but we will go through a proper recruitment process. If the hon. Lady is talking about the independent person to be appointed for the eligibility verification measures, we will go through a thorough recruitment process to ensure they have the expertise needed. They will report every year to Parliament, and it is right and appropriate that they do so.
I thank my right hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) for his support for part 1 of the Bill, but I understand his concerns about the powers as they pertain to the Department for Work and Pensions. One of his principal concerns was about banks perhaps being unable to exercise those powers appropriately; what we are proposing is not intended as a decision-making action, but as a data push. Banks will not make decisions—a human within the DWP will carry out that investigation. He has raised concerns about potential errors in the system, and to be clear, we acknowledge that this is a new power. We intend to scale it up in a “test and learn” phase, doing so gradually so that we can get it right, but we simply cannot ignore the problem and not look to take these powers when we had a £7.4 billion problem with fraud in the DWP last year.
Turning to the hon. Member for Horsham (John Milne), I think I have already dealt with the issue of carer’s allowance overpayments and how we are starting to put that right. To clarify again, we are not accessing bank accounts; banks will be doing that for us, but they will not be taking decisions as to somebody’s benefit eligibility. The hon. Gentleman said that we should look at the efficacy of existing powers to request information. We are doing that through the updating of information-gathering powers and the right to compel information digitally. We will be moving to a list of excluded organisations, rather than a list of organisations from which we are able to compel information.
My hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool Wavertree (Paula Barker) raised a series of concerns, which I know come from a good place. I am very happy to meet her to discuss some of these powers—it is important that we get this right—but on the particular question of the legal advice and article 8, although she is correct that Big Brother Watch did commission some legal opinion, we are confident that the powers in the Bill are compatible with the European Convention on Human Rights. They are different powers, distinct from the third-party data powers put forward as part of the Data Protection and Digital Information Bill, and we do think that they are compatible with the ECHR, including the right to a private life under article 8. That is specifically because the third-party data elements are now narrower, and because we have included the safeguards that I have set out. We think the measures are justified in accordance with the law and are proportionate.
The final speech was from the Opposition spokesperson, the hon. Member for South West Devon (Rebecca Smith). Again, I felt it was constructive, if slightly fantastical at points, and I may disagree about the extent to which the Conservatives had more sensible plans that have since been abandoned by this Government. On the question of public sector fraud, I note that she pointed to action to be taken to try to claw back public money. Can I suggest to her that they seek to put that in a press release? If they are not enough of a laughing stock because of their previous behaviour, they would be after seeking to claim that they had a positive story to tell in that space.
I will finish by reiterating the comments of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State: whoever you are—big businesses, covid fraudsters, organised criminal gangs seeking to defraud the system or individuals knowingly cheating on their benefits—it is not acceptable. We have a major problem, and we are taking the powers needed to act.
Question put, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
Adoptive Parents: Financial Support
Andrew Western Excerpts(1 month ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Andrew Western)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Furniss. I congratulate the hon. Member for Hazel Grove (Lisa Smart) on securing this important debate. I thank all who have taken part in the discussion for their thoughtful and incisive comments.
As the hon. Lady said, I recently received a written question from her about this issue, and I commend her for her continued support and campaigning in this crucial area. Becoming an adoptive parent is, of course, rewarding, but it is without doubt challenging too. It is admirable when anybody steps up to that role, let alone those who do so while in work. The Government do not underestimate the life-changing difference that adoptive parents up and down the country make every single day.
Breaking down barriers to opportunity is one of this Government’s key missions for the country. That is why we are committed to doing everything we can to ensure employed parents can balance their work and home lives. Our plan to make work pay will ensure there is more flexibility and support for working families, and our reforms to get Britain working include transforming employment support so that people with specific barriers to work, such as parents, receive personalised help to overcome the particular hurdles they face. That not only supports our No. 1 mission—to drive growth in every corner of the country—but creates a cycle of opportunity. People cannot fulfil their potential if they are struggling to afford life’s essentials, but good work brings security and dignity. That is why good work will always be the foundation of our approach to tackling poverty and supporting families.
Children cannot fulfil their potential if they grow up in poverty in any familial setting, and we cannot fulfil our potential as a country if the next generation is held back. That is why we have already started the urgent work needed to get the child poverty taskforce up and running. It is working to publish a comprehensive and ambitious child poverty strategy that will consider all children across the United Kingdom, whether in care, adopted or living with birth parents.
It is worth reiterating that maternity payments such as statutory maternity pay and maternity allowance are intended to protect the health and wellbeing of women and their babies, rather than to assist with the costs associated with a new child. I appreciate that the hon. Lady is specifically raising the issue of adoptive parents. When a family welcomes a new child into their world, it is only right that they have the time to bond—a point that the hon. Lady made eloquently in introducing the debate, and that all hon. Members reiterated.
It was genuinely important to hear about Kirsty’s experience of thinking about adopting a second child—an “assistant train driver”. She is one of the many people who are having to make very difficult choices. I have constituents in a similar position, and it is incredibly important that we hear such testimony when considering these issues.
The hon. Lady also highlighted that there is no guarantee on the means-tested local authority payments, as was reiterated by the shadow Minister, and that many councils do not have policies for that, before going on to set out that adoption saves the economy £4.2 billion a year. She, like myself, is a former senior local authority leader in Manchester. Having been deputy leader of Stockport council, she knows not only of the benefits of adoption for education and health, but of the many pressures within the local authority care system and the fact that secure, permanent placements are the best thing for the child. That support is priceless, and I think we are all agreed on that today.
The hon. Lady went on to say that new adoptive parents need to take time off to enable a child to settle in their new home. I absolutely agree. There are many complex needs that adoptive parents may face in settling their new child in, and balancing that with their employment needs, whether they are self-employed or in mainstream employment, poses many issues. I agree that improvements need to be made to the parental system. If she will bear with me, I will make a specific promise to her on how we can best move this forward.
The hon. Member for South Antrim (Robin Swann) also highlighted his local government experience. It is important to draw that out because we have all been corporate parents. We understand the importance of the role played both by the care system and by foster carers, kinship carers, and especially adoptive parents making a decision to permanently offer a home, love and support to a young person. He set out some of the specific challenges faced in Northern Ireland, for which I am grateful. He is right to highlight the spiralling statistics for children in care. As I just mentioned, it is critical to anybody with local government experience that sustainability and feasibility of adoption for all is imperative. I am very much aware of the points coming out in this debate, and I thank the hon. Gentleman for his contribution.
The hon. Member for Torbay (Steve Darling), the spokesperson for the Liberal Democrats, asked a specific question on the adoption support fund. He is, as ever, entirely right to raise this very reasonable question because current funding is, I think, only set until April 2025. If I may, I will write to the Department for Education directly and share the response I receive. I do not want to speak on behalf of another Department today, in case the information I provide turns out to be inaccurate, but I will follow up with the hon. Gentleman directly on that.
The hon. Gentleman also rightly set out the challenge of addressing the stereotypical perception of adoption as receiving a babe in arms. More often than not, people could be opening up their home and family to older children, those with very complex needs, or those who have experienced significant trauma. That requires time off too. Time off is required not just for a newborn child who needs a parent with them for obvious reasons throughout the day, but potentially for an older child’s significant, complex needs. The hon. Gentleman’s point reflects the real-world circumstances that many adoptive parents face.
The shadow Minister set out many of the advances that have been made over the past 14 years in this space, and I fully acknowledge those; but that prompts the question how, despite those advances, we have ended up in this position. I accept that we moved forward by introducing, as he said, automatic pupil premium allocation, the adoption support fund, adoption leave and so on. The challenge we face is how we can collectively encourage people to come forward as adopters, kinship carers and foster carers. As a Government, we have a responsibility to make that process as easy as possible. When we look at the outcomes of children who grow up in what one might consider traditional care settings—that is, a children’s home—versus the outcomes of children who grow up in a more traditional family unit, whether adoptive or foster care, or with birth parents, the statistics are stark. If we look at the number of care leavers in the prison system, for instance, or the level of qualifications, some of the figures are incredibly concerning. The shadow Minister’s point was very well made.
Turning back to my substantive comments, we want to ensure that parental leave is supporting all working families as well as possible, so the Government have committed to a review of the parental leave system and work is already under way on planning for that review.
Enabling parents to take time off work not only allows for bonding time but ensures that they are able to give a child the care that they need. In the case of adoption, that ability to connect and care, as we have just discussed, is essential in terms of securing the permanence of any adoption placement. For all those reasons, employed adoptive parents have broadly the same rights and protections as birth parents, in that statutory adoption leave is a day one right, but of course there is the anomaly that we are speaking about today.
I therefore want to give the hon. Member for Hazel Grove a clear assurance that I will write in to that parental leave review and make sure that what we have discussed today is fed into that process, because whatever our views on the rights and wrongs of this, I think that we can all accept that there is a gap, and that we all want as many people as possible to be able to come forward as carers. The anomaly is potentially a barrier to that for some people, not least because we have that means-tested, not especially well advertised, not-brilliant-levels-of-uptake current system, which I think we would all want looked at.
In the meantime, where adopters do not qualify for that statutory payment they have the local authority option, but I would like to highlight some of the wider support, as the Opposition spokesperson, the hon. Member for East Wiltshire, did in his contribution. There is not only advice, information and counselling, but means-tested support. Potentially, on top of that, there is support for new parents—any new parents—in terms of potential eligibility for universal credit, child benefit, and the Sure Start maternity grant, all of which can help all families with the cost of raising children, especially those in need of extra support.
I think I will leave it there, Ms Furness, with just a final thank you to the hon. Member for Hazel Grove for calling this debate. We recognise the contributions of self-employed people, who are a key part of our economy, and we appreciate the valuable difference that adopters make. Therefore, it is only right that we have taken the time today —I am pleased to have had the chance—to consider how we support the remarkable people who take on both roles at the same time.
I reiterate that I will write to the Department for Business and Trade about the issues that have been raised in this debate, and about how the debate can feed into the review that I mentioned earlier, because it is crucial that we accept that there is an anomaly in the system. I will, obviously, send the hon. the hon. Member for Hazel Grove a copy of my correspondence.
Oral Answers to Questions
Andrew Western Excerpts(2 months ago)
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Mr Lee Dillon (Newbury) (LD)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Andrew Western)
Jobcentres work with a range of external providers to offer a wealth of outreach support. In Berkshire, this includes work coach support for customers with complex needs delivered by Reading college, outreach delivered by the Slough homelessness team and at Windsor Homeless Project locations, and employment support delivered by the probation hub in Reading. Outreach work is something that we not only strongly support, but actively encourage.
Mr Dillon
The Minister has named a number of projects in Berkshire, none of which falls within my constituency of Newbury. Would he welcome community interest companies such as Lambourn Junction hosting jobcentres in their facilities to make sure that people in rural constituencies such as mine have access to a jobcentre, rather than having to travel into the main town centre for that support?
Andrew Western
I would very much welcome such an initiative being brought forward in the hon. Member’s constituency of Newbury. He may also be pleased to know that there is the potential for a youth hub to open in Newbury, similar to that in Oxford, which was grant funded and is already in operation.
Rebecca Long Bailey (Salford) (Ind)
Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Andrew Western)
Once people are granted refugee status, they have immediate access to DWP employment support and services. Work coaches work with refugee customers to understand their individual employment needs and provide tailored support, as appropriate, including with CV writing, interview preparedness and help securing work experience. Those who require more intensive support can be referred to DWP employment programmes or other contracted provision.
Tim Farron
The Government are seeking to clear the very unacceptable backlog—the huge backlog—of asylum applications they inherited from the previous Government. As a result, we are already beginning to see an increase in the number of newly recognised refugees, who rightly now have the right to work and to contribute here. Can the Minister say a bit more about the strategic planning and cross-departmental work that is happening on providing tailored support—he talked about tailored support, but the existing scheme of course comes to an end in June—so that refugees who have every right to be here have the ability to take a job, pay taxes and contribute here?
Andrew Western
The hon. Member is entirely correct to recognise the important role of refugees in contributing to our economy. There is a range of tailored support available with things such as language support and, as I mentioned earlier, with CV writing and interview preparedness, but there is also support with ensuring that their qualifications earned elsewhere are transferable to this country. I would of course be very happy to meet him to discuss further the support that could be put in place as we look, as he says, to clear the asylum backlogs. We are in constant communication with the Home Office and other Departments to ensure that there is a holistic approach in doing so.
Munira Wilson (Twickenham) (LD)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Andrew Western)
The Government keep the rates of parental pay under review. Following the Secretary of State’s announcement in a written ministerial statement to Parliament on 30 October, and subject to parliamentary approval, parental pay will increase in line with the consumer prices index at the rate of 1.7% from April 2025.
Munira Wilson
At less than half the rate of a full-time national minimum wage, maternity and paternity pay is so low that most parents simply cannot live on it, and they are often forced into debt, or forced back to work sooner than they would like. A poll of fathers found that two-thirds of them would take more leave if paternity pay were higher. If we want to give families choice in how they care for their children in those precious early months, will the Minister discuss with colleagues in the Treasury and the Department for Business and Trade how we can boost rates of maternity and paternity pay?
Andrew Western
I understand the point that the hon. Lady is making, but requests for a significant uplifting of benefits come with a price tag and I heard no suggestions as to how that would be paid for. On support for parents, the Government committed in their manifesto to review parental leave to ensure that it best supports working families. Further details of that review will be announced in due course.
Alistair Strathern (Hitchin) (Lab)
Recent damning statistics highlighted that just 2% of parents made use of shared parental leave in the past year, with uptake skewed towards the highest earners. Given the importance of breaking down barriers to equal parenting for employment, will the Minister ensure that he works with the Department for Business and Trade as part of the upcoming review to ensure that enhanced parental leave is considered, including strengthening paternity leave entitlements?
Andrew Western
My hon. Friend is correct to highlight not just the importance and benefits of shared parental leave, but the disparity between those who make use of it. I will, of course, maintain dialogue with the Department for Business and Trade as we go through that review, but I would also welcome a discussion with my hon. Friend about his ambitions and ideas for how we could take that forward.
Bobby Dean (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD)
Douglas McAllister (West Dunbartonshire) (Lab)
How does the Secretary of State envision the future of jobcentres in my constituency and across Scotland, and what role will technology play in that?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Andrew Western)
My hon. Friend is absolutely right to highlight that any reform to our jobcentres must come with digital transformation. We are currently exploring schemes such as a “Jobcentre in your pocket” app, as well as looking for ways in which jobseekers can self-serve in terms of meeting the conditions of their conditionality regime.
Seamus Logan (Aberdeenshire North and Moray East) (SNP)
Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab)
A recently published freedom of information request indicates that AI tools used to detect DWP fraud are biased and disproportionately discriminate against people by age, disability, marital status and nationality. Obviously, that has caused considerable concern. What assurances can the Minister give that the procurement and use of such tools will be covered by strict governance standards, including tests for fairness?
Andrew Western
My hon. Friend will know that we face a significant challenge, with fraud and error costing the Department almost £10 billion a year. It is right that we look to utilise all available tools to tackle it. However, I understand her concerns, although I would remind her that the final decision on whether someone receives a welfare payment is always made by a human. That is the most robust safeguard that we can have in place—although of course it sits alongside a broader suite.
Aphra Brandreth (Chester South and Eddisbury) (Con)
My inspirational constituent, Bells Lewers, has terminal bowel cancer. When she was first undergoing treatment, she was initially turned down for personal independence payment, despite the significant impact on her ability to work and carry out basic daily activities. Has the Minister considered incorporating clinical diagnosis alongside function in eligibility assessments, and will he meet Bells to discuss the assessment process?
Sally Jameson (Doncaster Central) (Lab/Co-op)
An astonishing £35 billion has been lost to benefit fraud and errors since the pandemic. Will the Minister outline the plans and the timeline for recouping that money?
Andrew Western
My hon. Friend is right to highlight the enormous cost to the Department—upwards of £35 billion—of fraud since the pandemic. She will be pleased to know that the fraud, error and debt Bill is due to come to the House early in the new year. This Government are serious about tackling fraud; it is just a shame that we inherited the mess we did.
Healthy Start: Uptake
Andrew Western Excerpts(2 months, 3 weeks ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Andrew Western)
Healthy Start is a passported scheme with eligibility being derived from certain qualifying benefits, such as universal credit. The uptake percentage for the Healthy Start scheme is calculated by comparing the number of potential eligible people with the number of beneficiaries—individuals who accessed the Healthy Start scheme. The NHS Business Services Authority publish the data on their website where it is publicly available.
Eligibility and take-up numbers have been used in numerous parliamentary questions and debates. A previous source data issue that affected eligibility statistics resulted in a written ministerial statement being laid in Parliament on 26 March 2024.
I regret to inform the House that a further issue has been identified with the statistics on the number of those potentially eligible. This dates back to January 2023. This means that uptake and eligibility data used in 15 parliamentary questions and eight debates under the former Government was inaccurate.
It is important to state that this issue has not impacted any Healthy Start applications, existing beneficiaries, or live claim processes. This issue has only affected reported uptake statistics.
Issue
Healthy Start uptake percentage statistics are calculated using information provided by Department for Work and Pensions. DWP generates potential eligibility figures using the universal credit assessed income period. Unfortunately, this period was calculated incorrectly meaning the monthly figures reported were based on a longer period.
This means that the potential eligibility figures provided by DWP from January 2023 to June 2024 were inaccurate.
Impact
The error means that the number of those potentially eligible has been overestimated. This in turn has led to an underestimated uptake percentage since January 2023.
It should be noted that while these statistics are a key element for reporting uptake of the Healthy Start scheme, this has not impacted any Healthy Start applications, existing beneficiaries, or live claim processes. The scheme continues to be promoted by the NHS Business Services Authority, which administer the scheme on behalf of Department of Health and Social Care, through a variety of publications, social media, exhibits, etc.
Corrective action
DWP has corrected the calculation of the assessed income period from July 2024. Cross-departmental testing is being conducted to provide assurance before any further data is shared with NHSBSA.
The incorrect statistical data has been removed from the NHS Healthy Start website.
Unfortunately, we are unable to publish corrected historical figures as the number of recipients of universal credit changes daily, meaning the data is only fully accurate at the time it is produced. We will seek to restore fully accurate uptake data as soon as we are able.
[HCWS242]
Oral Answers to Questions
Andrew Western Excerpts(3 months ago)
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Damien Egan (Bristol North East) (Lab)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Andrew Western)
No specific assessment has been made of the impact of the household support fund on low-income households in 2025-26, although we hear routinely from local authorities across the country about the impact of the fund in supporting those who are struggling. An evaluation of the fourth iteration of the scheme, running from April 2023 to March 2024, will be published shortly, exploring the benefits of the more than 19 million awards made during this period.
Warinder Juss
I agree that the payment of winter fuel allowance should be means-tested, because many pensioners who receive the winter fuel allowance simply do not need it. However, there are pensioners who are not entitled to pension credit who will struggle to heat their homes. Can the Minister please confirm the extent to which the household support fund will assist those pensioners in my Wolverhampton West constituency?
Andrew Western
The household support fund is intended to support a wide range of households in need, including pensioner households. There has been no ringfencing of funding for specific groups since October 2022, meaning that local authorities have the flexibility to support pensioners who are just above the pension credit threshold. In the 2023-24 financial year, 26% of household support funding went towards meeting energy costs.
Alistair Strathern
I welcome the Government’s decision to provide more than £1 billion in new funding for the household support fund, extending it all the way through next year, and to give much more notice to the local authorities that deliver it. The funding is so important not just to countless vulnerable residents, but to great local organisations, such as the Need Project food banks in my constituency. How will the Department work with local authorities to make the most of the notice and to ensure the funding goes as far as possible?
Andrew Western
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. As a former local authority leader, I know that above all else, certainty will allow councils to design and deliver sustainable plans for local welfare assistance. The Government’s commitment to funding the HSF until March 2026 offers that certainty and time to plan with greater confidence. To that end, we will confirm individual allocations for the forthcoming one-year extension to the HSF as soon as possible, and ahead of the scheme beginning on 1 April.
Damien Egan
Because the household support fund is devolved to local councils, there are lots of different examples of how the funding is spent, so how will the Minister ensure that the money from councils goes to the people who really need it?
Andrew Western
Like me, my hon. Friend is a former local authority leader—albeit a directly elected mayor, and with a far greater mandate, therefore, than I ever enjoyed. Like me, he will appreciate the importance of empowering local areas to respond to local need. That said, all councils must develop delivery plans to show how they are targeting the funds to support the most vulnerable, to ensure that the spirit of the HSF is upheld in helping low-income households with the cost of essentials.
Brendan O'Hara (Argyll, Bute and South Lochaber) (SNP)
Euan Stainbank (Falkirk) (Lab)
How many current Department employees cannot receive further sponsorship due to the previous Government’s changes to the skilled worker visa salary threshold?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Andrew Western)
My hon. Friend asks an important question and I will be delighted to follow up with him in writing.
Nick Timothy (West Suffolk) (Con)
According to the census, 72% of Somalis here live in social housing, compared with 16% of the population overall. In answer to my written question, the Department says it is “exploring the feasibility” of publishing benefits claimed by nationality, which is important for a proper debate on benefits policy and immigration policy. Can the Minister confirm that that work is going ahead and tell us when the data will be published?
Andrew Western
The hon. Gentleman will be aware that nationality and country of origin are not factors in assessing benefit eligibility. We may look at that in future, but I would be delighted to follow up with him in writing about how we will take it forward.
Mr Mark Sewards (Leeds South West and Morley) (Lab)
When I speak to my constituents, from Lofthouse to Farnley, they are extremely concerned about the amount of money being lost to fraud and error in benefits. Can the Minister confirm a timeline and a plan to get back the £35 billion that has been lost since the pandemic?
Andrew Western
My hon. Friend is right to raise that issue. The spiralling nature of fraud in this country since the pandemic and on the last Government’s watch is totally unacceptable. We will bring forward a fraud, error and debt Bill in the coming months, which is part of a much broader package—the largest-ever package brought forward by any Government—to take out more than £7.6 billion of fraud over the forecast period.
Martin Wrigley (Newton Abbot) (LD)
Citizens Advice tells me that the DWP continues to start action on alleged overpayments more than six years after the event. That is longer than bank records are kept to prove otherwise. Does the Secretary of State think that that is fair and right?
Office for Nuclear Regulation Annual Report and Accounts
Andrew Western Excerpts(3 months, 3 weeks ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Andrew Western)
Later today I will lay before this House the Office for Nuclear Regulation’s annual report and accounts for 2023-24. This document will also be published on the ONR website.
I can confirm, in accordance with paragraph 25(3) of schedule 7 to the Energy Act 2013, that there have been no exclusions to the published document on the grounds of national security.
[HCWS162]
Work and Pensions
Andrew Western Excerpts(3 months, 3 weeks ago)
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Andrew Western
On the wider points, I will begin with the question of the adequacy of carer’s allowance, set as it is at £151 per week. Carer’s allowance will be increased in April 2025 by the consumer prices index to help ensure that it maintains its value. As well as carer’s allowance, carers in low-income households can claim income-related benefits such as universal credit and pension credit.
[Official Report, 16 October 2024; Vol. 754, c. 883.]
Written correction submitted by the Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, the hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston (Andrew Western):
Andrew Western
On the wider points, I will begin with the question of the adequacy of carer’s allowance, set as it is at £81.90 per week. Carer’s allowance will be increased in April 2025 by the consumer prices index to help ensure that it maintains its value. As well as carer’s allowance, carers in low-income households can claim income-related benefits such as universal credit and pension credit.
Carer’s Allowance
Andrew Western Excerpts(4 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Andrew Western)
I am pleased to be able to respond to this vital debate, which in both tone and importance has been one of the best I have heard in my two years in this place. I also add my thanks to the right hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Ed Davey) for bringing forward the Opposition day motion today, because this issue is clearly of concern to many Members, and they are right to be concerned.
The right hon. Member is one of many right hon. and hon. Members to have made important contributions and spoken with great passion on this crucial issue. The hon. Members for Salford (Rebecca Long Bailey) and for Carshalton and Wallington (Bobby Dean), my hon. Friend the Member for Hertford and Stortford (Josh Dean), the hon. Member for Harpenden and Berkhamsted (Victoria Collins), my hon. Friends the Members for Wirral West (Matthew Patrick), for Harlow (Chris Vince) and for Paisley and Renfrewshire South (Johanna Baxter), the hon. Members for Stratford-on-Avon (Manuela Perteghella) and for Maidenhead (Mr Reynolds) and others rightly spoke about the important role that millions of family carers play in providing support for disabled or elderly relatives who need care at home. I echo those comments and add my own tribute to all family carers. Much of their tireless work goes unseen and unrecognised.
Like other Members, I am privileged to witness glimpses of carers’ dedication through my correspondence and through events I attend in my constituency. Running through today’s debate was an underlying and understandable anger at the position we inherited from the last Government, whereby family carers trying to do the right thing have been left with staggering overpayments, often running into thousands of pounds. As my hon. Friend the Member for Birkenhead (Alison McGovern) set out earlier, we are making sure that we understand precisely what has gone wrong so that we can put the system right for the long term. Our family carers deserve no less.
Many Members, including the hon. Members for Eastleigh (Liz Jarvis) and for North East Fife (Wendy Chamberlain), my hon. Friends the Members for Shipley (Anna Dixon) and for Bexleyheath and Crayford (Daniel Francis) and the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (Jamie Stone), and of course my hon. Friend the Member for City of Durham (Mary Kelly Foy) and the right hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton, spoke about their own experiences as carers or the work they do locally to support organisations helping family carers. I grew up watching my grandmother care for my grandad, struggling with Parkinson’s disease, before later seeing my mum, one of the many hidden carers up and down the land, care for her mother—my nana—in her final years battling Alzheimer’s disease.
None of us in this House is blind to the work that carers do. They are fortunate to have some wonderful advocates. Those include their MPs, as we have seen today, but also organisations such as Carers UK, the Carers Trust and the Learning and Work Institute, to name but three. The Minister for Social Security and Disability, my right hon. Friend the Member for East Ham (Sir Stephen Timms), and I have already met a delegation of carers and Carers UK, and he will be doing so again shortly. He will also meet separately with the Carers Trust and the Learning and Work Institute, because we are determined to ensure that the voices of family carers and the organisations supporting them are at the heart of everything we do.
I also want to pay tribute to the hundreds of DWP staff, largely based in the north-west, who provide financial support to a million family carers through carer’s allowance, day in, day out. The Government will spend record amounts to support unpaid carers. Real-terms expenditure on carer’s allowance is forecast to rise from £4.2 billion in 2024-25 to just over £4.7 billion a year by 2028-29.
I turn to some of the other points raised during the debate, with apologies that time will permit me to address only some of them. Let me take the opportunity to congratulate and pay tribute to my hon. Friends the Members for Clwyd North (Gill German) and for Weston-super-Mare (Dan Aldridge) and the hon. Member for Torbay (Steve Darling) on their excellent maiden speeches. They painted vivid pictures of their constituencies and I feel certain that they will go on to make significant contributions in this place.
On the wider points, I will begin with the question of the adequacy of carer’s allowance, set as it is at £151 per week. Carer’s allowance will be increased in April 2025 by the consumer prices index to help ensure that it maintains its value. As well as carer’s allowance, carers in low-income households can claim income-related benefits such as universal credit and pension credit. Those can be paid to carers at a higher rate than to those without caring responsibilities through the carer element and the additional amount for carers respectively. For example, over 750,000 carer households on universal credit can already receive an additional £2,400 a year through the carer element. That said, the House should be aware that issues beyond the scope of the independent review announced today are not being ignored; this is merely a first step towards progress. The Government are also looking at the broader question of how to provide the best possible support for family carers, although I do not want to pre-empt that work today.
Let me turn to the question of a taper, which was raised by a number of right hon. and hon. Members. At the moment, introducing a taper in carer’s allowance would significantly complicate the benefit, with awards having to be adjusted manually on a weekly basis for some of those declaring earnings. That would add to administrative costs and could mean more fraud and error. Those also receiving universal credit would need to have that adjusted if their payment of carer’s allowance changed because of an earnings taper rate. A taper could be introduced only following significant changes to the IT system that supports payment of carer’s allowance. For the moment, therefore, it is not possible.
On the potential writing off of overpayments, which was at the heart of many of the excellent contributions that we heard, an overpayment can occur through fraud, or through claimant or official error. The Secretary of State has an obligation to protect public funds and ensure that, wherever possible, overpayments are recovered, but determining what best we can do to support those who have accrued overpayments is within the scope of the independent review, as is how such overpayments occurred and what we can do to ensure that we take all the steps we can to reduce the risk of such incidents happening again.
Let me turn briefly to the comments of the shadow Secretary of State, the right hon. Member for Central Devon (Mel Stride). He listed the many interventions that the last Government supposedly made to improve the lot of carers—seemingly including the private Member’s Bill of the hon. Member for North East Fife—but after 14 years of Conservative government, we see carers who find themselves in heartbreaking situations having racked up huge overpayments. However, the right hon. Gentleman correctly set out the incredibly complex nature of the carer’s allowance system, with allowances for legitimate expenses, pension contributions and so on, and why resolving this matter is therefore not straightforward. That is why the independent review is the correct mechanism and next step to fully understand what went wrong and why, and how we can put things right. I welcome his support for the review.
Many colleagues referred to the role that family carers play in easing pressure on the social care system, and indeed in supporting our economy, and they were entirely right to do so. I acknowledge everything that carers do. They are heroes. We appreciate how much society relies on unpaid carers, we recognise the challenges they face and we understand the need for change. Supporting carers is both a moral and an economic imperative, so we will help carers stay in paid work, we are spending record amounts on carer’s allowance and we will sort out the overpayments scandal we inherited. That is why we have announced the independent review today: so that, together, we can rebuild the trust that has been lost and ensure that those who offer comfort, dignity and support to the ones they love are given all the help they need in return. I hope right hon. and hon. Members will acknowledge that work today by supporting the Government amendment.
Question put (Standing Order No. 31(2)), That the original words stand part of the Question.
Oral Answers to Questions
Andrew Western Excerpts(4 months, 1 week ago)
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Mr Will Forster (Woking) (LD)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Andrew Western)
The Child Maintenance Service is committed to ensuring that separated parents support their children financially and to taking robust enforcement action against those who do not do so. Between March 2023 and March this year, the percentage of parents paying something towards maintenance through collect and pay increased from 65% to 69%. This Government recognise that child maintenance payments play a crucial role in keeping hundreds of thousands of children out of poverty each year, and we are determined to do all we can to increase those collection levels further.
Mr Forster
Given that around half of children in separated families—that is 1.8 million children—are receiving no support from their non-residential parent, does the Minister know when that figure might change?
Andrew Western
The hon. Gentleman raises an important point about those families who receive no support. I am told that the figure is actually around 40%, but none the less it is not good enough. Although there are varied reasons for that—indeed, there are some parents who do not want an arrangement—we are looking, as he may be aware, at a recently concluded consultation on the future of the Child Maintenance Service. We will consider our next steps with a view to trying to increase collection levels wherever we can.
Mr Speaker
Members have to stand to be called. I am not a mind reader; I am pretty good, but I cannot win the lottery.
Andrew Cooper (Mid Cheshire) (Lab)
Two constituents have contacted me with separate but similar cases relating to obtaining child maintenance payments from abusive ex-partners. In both cases, their abusers have been able to use features of the system to avoid paying their fair share to their victims and their children, leaving my constituents with a shortfall of thousands of pounds. Can my hon. Friend tell me what steps are being taken to reform the child maintenance system to protect victims of abuse, such as my constituents?
Andrew Western
The Department takes domestic abuse extremely seriously. My hon. Friend will be keen to hear that the recently concluded consultation I referenced in my previous answer looked to address some of the issues with the direct pay service. Indeed, it consulted on the potential removal of that service moving forward. That service has been open to abuse and has led to victims of domestic abuse continuing to be terrorised. That is unacceptable, and we will look to address it moving forward.
Bradley Thomas (Bromsgrove) (Con)
Patrick Hurley (Southport) (Lab)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Andrew Western)
To be frank, the current system is focused on the problems of yesterday. In the last Parliament, economic inactivity increased and the employment rate fell. We are planning fundamental reforms to the system that will focus on the problems of today and get more people into work, details of which will be set out in our forthcoming White Paper, “Get Britain Working”.
Patrick Hurley
Will the Minister set out how the proposed merger between Jobcentre Plus and the National Careers Service will help to tackle economic inactivity and change the way that jobcentres work with their customers?
Andrew Western
I thank my hon. Friend for his question; I was pleased to hear that one of his earliest visits as the first ever Labour Member for Southport was to his local jobcentre with the Minister for Employment, who I know would want me to commend all the staff at the Southport jobcentre. The truth is that, at present, jobcentres seem to function more as places from which benefits are administered than as centres supporting people into work. The merger of Jobcentre Plus and the National Careers Service will address that, enabling us to get more people into employment and help those on low pay increase their earnings, through more personalised and localised support, ensuring that no one is left behind.
Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD)
The challenge that jobcentres in Kendal and the rest of Cumbria face, as well as getting people back into work, is the fact that our workforce in Westmorland is far too small. The average house price in our constituency is 12 times average earnings, and waiting lists for social housing are through the roof. Some 66% of all employers surveyed in our community recently said that they were working below capacity because they could not find enough staff, so if we want to tackle the problem in our economy, we need to do two things: first, increase the amount of social housing and secondly, allow more flexible visa arrangements. Would the Minister’s Department work with housing colleagues to provide more housing grants for our community and sign up to the youth mobility visa arrangements?
Mr Speaker
Order. The hon. Member should know better. He gets in a lot, so he should not take advantage of other Members.
Andrew Western
The hon. Member will be pleased to know that we intend to work considerably more flexibly to support the needs of communities in a varied and bespoke way. He has particular challenges because of the rural nature of his constituency and various other factors, but he will appreciate that I will not make housing or Home Office policy on the hoof from the Dispatch Box.
Mims Davies (East Grinstead and Uckfield) (Con)
Jobcentres are extremely good, as we just heard from the hon. Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Dame Meg Hillier), who is leaving the Chamber. Yet the new Minister for Employment previously described jobcentres as places nobody wants to go, and claimed that they do not offer real help. Our jobcentres help to ensure that almost 4 million more people have work, compared with when her party left office in 2010. More than 2 million of those employed are women. Will the Minister and the DWP team who have made disparaging remarks apologise to work coaches and DWP staff, who she and they have rubbished but who now have to look up to them as the new ministerial team?
Andrew Western
I fear that the hon. Lady has misunderstood the criticism, which is levied not at our outstanding work coaches but at the policies of the previous Government, who have left us with economic inactivity at its highest rate in years. We are the only G7 economy with a lower employment rate than before the pandemic. Those are the challenges that we have been left with, and the problems that we will solve.
Paul Davies (Colne Valley) (Lab)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Andrew Western)
My hon. Friend is entirely right to raise this issue. He will be pleased to know that this Government are looking to utilise new powers to obtain a liability order without recourse to the courts, reducing the time taken to secure such an order from 22 weeks to around six.
Markus Campbell-Savours (Penrith and Solway) (Lab)
Andrew Western
I welcome my hon. Friend’s support for the proposed fraud Bill. The level of fraud in the welfare system is absolutely unacceptable; almost £10 billion was lost last year. Increased use of data will be essential to clamping down on both capital fraud and broader fraud. However, we will do that without sharing any information at all with banks and financial institutions.
Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con)
I thank the Secretary of State for her personal commitment to transparency. Further to the question asked by the shadow Secretary of State, my right hon. Friend the Member for Central Devon (Mel Stride), will she share with the House how many thousands of people will die as a result of Labour’s choice to cut the winter fuel payment?
Oliver Ryan (Burnley) (Lab/Co-op)
My constituents want a fair and robust welfare system, but they have no truck with fraud. Can the Secretary of State assure my constituents that she is doing everything she can to crack down on fraud, and to make sure that those who genuinely need help get it?
Andrew Western
My hon. Friend is correct to raise this issue. As I said, we will not tolerate the current levels of fraud in our welfare system. He will be pleased to note the Prime Minister’s recent announcement of the forthcoming fraud, error and debt Bill, which will begin the necessary work to drive down fraud in the Department.
Dave Doogan (Angus and Perthshire Glens) (SNP)
Can I share with the Secretary of State the plight of my constituent, who went without child maintenance payments for six months? That happened not because of anything done wrong by her, or the paying parent, or the paying parent’s employer, which processed the direct deduction of earnings order, but because the Child Maintenance Service misplaced the payments. Will the Secretary of State apologise for that mishap? What plans does she have to rectify that deeply flawed organisation?
Andrew Western
I am very sorry to hear of this case. I am not familiar with it, but I will look into it, if the hon. Gentleman contacts me with the details.