15:26 - The House divided: - Ayes: 87 / Noes: 335 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Minister for Employment (Alison McGovern)
I beg to move an amendment, to leave out from “society” to the end and add:
“; believes it is essential that carers are provided with the support they need at the time they need it; condemns the previous Government for failing to address the scandal of demands for repayments of Carer’s Allowance; and welcomes the Government’s review into how these overpayments have occurred, what best can be done to support those who have accrued them and how to reduce the risk of these problems occurring in future.”
Let me begin by paying tribute to the right hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Ed Davey). It is excellent that he has brought this subject to the House. I heard what he said about family carers as opposed to unpaid carers, and while I do not want to get involved in a big linguistic debate, I think he made an important point that will be recognised by many carers up and down the country. When we are making policy, we should always listen to those with direct experience. I think that the right hon. Gentleman made his point on behalf of millions of people, and it is good that the House has heard it.
Many people will be personally acquainted with this issue. There are 5 million carers in the UK and about 1 million people are receiving carer’s allowance, so this debate is extremely important. According to the latest census, just under one in 10 people in England and Wales provide unpaid care, but the subject of carers is not at the top of the political agenda nearly as often as it should be.
Dr Luke Evans (Hinckley and Bosworth) (Con)
When I was a clinician, people did not even realise that they could be labelled as carers and could apply to be carers, and were unaware of the gateway that that would provide. Might the Government consider doing some work to make more people aware that they are undertaking caring responsibilities, so that they can then obtain the support that is actually out there, if they only knew?
Alison McGovern
That is a very good point, and the hon. Gentleman’s experience as a clinician is welcome. The Secretary of State has considerable experience of working with carers, and I will alert her to his comments, because I think she would appreciate what he has said.
We must never think this is not an issue that does not affect us all. Many of us will become carers—if not now, at some point in our lives. This affects all of us, and everyone’s life is different. Support for family carers needs to be tailored so that it works for the individual and takes into account the different circumstances that people face. When you are caring for someone, that is a huge part of your life, and it never stops. Even if you are working, you are still thinking about that person for whom you are caring day in, day out. It is not just a physical job; it is a mental, intellectual job, and that is why the issue of stress and how carers are treated is so important.
Helena Dollimore (Hastings and Rye) (Lab/Co-op)
I join the Minister in paying tribute to the millions of carers in the country, including those in my constituency. Does she agree that when someone is juggling the daily stresses of life, it can be difficult to remember to notify the DWP of a change in circumstances, which is required under the current arrangement?
Alison McGovern
I will come to the review that we will be conducting, but let me make the general point that we in the Government ought to be able to understand the realities of life and take that into account.
The position that I have described makes the dire situation we have inherited all the more shameful. Family carers are being pushed to breaking point. They have too often been forced to quit jobs that they want to keep and could keep with the right support, which isolates them and shrinks our workforce. With the right support, we could help carers and help our economy as well. To rub salt into the wound, we have inherited a system whereby busy carers, already struggling under a huge weight of responsibility, have been left having to repay large sums of overpaid carer’s allowance, sometimes amounting to thousands of pounds. It seems as though what is supposed to be a safety net designed to catch those in need was instead designed to catch them out.
Jim Shannon
For some time constituents of mine have found that they are due to repay an overpayment. I always ask them whether they remember when they made their complaint. All telephone conversations with the Department are recorded, so there is a way of making it clear that the fault lies not with the applicant but with the Department. Is there also a way of ensuring that those who have been penalised unfairly for following the Department’s advice should not have to pay that money?
Alison McGovern
As the hon. Member knows, the Department is not responsible for the delivery of social security benefits in Northern Ireland, but I am sure that Northern Ireland’s Department for Communities will be keeping a close eye on the debate and will want to take his points into account.
This problem is one of the numerous ways in which our social security system is failing the people of this country, with 2.8 million left out of work because they are unwell and more than 4 million children growing up poor, and we have therefore moved fast to fix the foundations of the DWP. That includes our setting up a taskforce to tackle child poverty, extending the household support fund for six months, and holding the first meeting of our new Labour Market Advisory Board. The board’s expertise and fresh thinking will help us break down barriers to work, such as an inability to balance paid work with family care.
Daisy Cooper (St Albans) (LD)
This Government have talked about a duty of candour. Can the Minister give an assurance that if people working at the DWP have information about maladministration and poor management of the service that they have witnessed and wish to come forward with that information, they will be protected as whistleblowers?
Alison McGovern
Obviously whistleblowing is very important. The Hillsborough law that is being introduced is not my responsibility, so the hon. Lady will understand that I cannot go over it extensively, but I will say, as someone who worked on the Hillsborough issue for many years, that it is very important to me personally.
These problems are significant, and given the scale of the challenges, we will not be able to solve all of them overnight, but we have taken important first steps, including tackling the issue of overpayments of carer’s allowance related to earnings. We have all heard the stories of some of the thousands of carers who have been affected, we have all heard and know about the stress and anxiety that it has caused them, and we all want—I hope—to establish the facts.
To address this problem, we must first truly understand what has gone wrong. That is why the DWP has announced today an independent review of overpayments of carer’s allowance that have exceeded the entitlement threshold. The review will investigate how the overpayments have occurred, what can best be done to support those who have accrued them, and how to reduce the risk of such problems occurring in future. We are delighted that Liz Sayce OBE has agreed to lead the review. My colleagues the Minister for Social Security and Disability, my right hon. Friend the Member for East Ham (Sir Stephen Timms), and the Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, my hon. Friend the Member for Stretford and Urmston (Andrew Western), have already met representatives of Carers UK, along with carers themselves, to discuss their report on overpayments, and we will consider the findings of that report alongside the independent review.
Shockat Adam (Leicester South) (Ind)
On that point, does the Minister agree that there should be a failsafe system? If an overpayment is made and the receiver is not notified, they should be allowed not to pay back any of the money.
Alison McGovern
I thank the hon. Member for his intervention. I am sure that many Members will want to provide their views to the review, which is welcome. I will come to some of the steps we have already taken to try to address the problems in a moment.
It is vital to move quickly to understand exactly what has gone wrong, so that we can set out a plan to put things right. Right now, we want to make it as easy as possible for carers to tell us when something has changed that could affect their carer’s allowance. We will continue to look at improving communications, and we are now reviewing the results of a test of text alerts to claimants who may be at risk of building up overpayments.
In response to the point that the right hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Ed Davey) made about the need for a review, I assure him that we are not waiting for an extensive review in order to act; we have acted already. Our pilot involved texting 3,500 claimants to alert them when we were told by HMRC that they have breached the current earnings limit. Going forward, we want to make the best use of earnings data already held by HMRC in order to reduce the burdens on busy carers, which also responds to the point made earlier.
Alison McGovern
In a moment.
If the results of the pilot are positive, that will be the first step towards addressing the overpayments problem. I know that we need to do much more, and there are many other issues, but it will be a good start.
Ed Davey
I am grateful to the Minister for what she has just said, but will she confirm that the remit of the review will go further into the structure of carer’s allowance? Many of us think that the earnings limit is way too low, and the whole cliff-edge structure has to change. Can she confirm that the review will look at that?
Alison McGovern
I thank the right hon. Member for his question. I went through the details of what the review will look at just a moment ago, but there are wider problems with support for carers. The right hon. Member will know that the Department is currently looking at a whole host of areas, and we need family carers to be much better supported, both in work and when they are not working, so we will look at the wider issues. The review is about doing that, as I have said, but that does not mean that we are not fully aware of all the issues that carers face. As I was saying, addressing overpayments is only part of the action we need to take to ensure that unpaid carers get the support they need and deserve.
Alison McGovern
I will make a bit of progress.
We are looking closely at how the benefits system currently works, and it is right that the Government focus on addressing overpayments of carer’s allowance. As I was just saying, we have set up an independent review, but we have heard the concerns about the broader system, including the earnings limit and the lack of taper. As Members will know, earlier this year the Work and Pensions Committee, which was then chaired by my right hon. Friend the Member for East Ham, raised a number of issues with carer’s allowance—not only overpayments, but the need for modernisation more generally. As the right hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton will know, we have given the Committee’s recommendations the detailed consideration that they deserve, and we will respond later in the autumn.
Mr Speaker
Order. May I gently say to the Minister that she should look towards the Chair when speaking? I struggle to hear when she is constantly looking the other way. We operate in the third person, which is why Members should always speak through the Chair. Otherwise, I struggle to catch the words.
Alison McGovern
I apologise, Mr Speaker. You would think that after 14 years I would be able to get it right.
Alison McGovern
Yes, 14 years. It just goes to show that every day in this House is a school day. Thank you, Mr Speaker; I always welcome your suggestions.
I cannot pre-empt the Secretary of State’s decision, but she will shortly start her uprating review of carer’s allowance, following the release of yesterday’s earnings data and today’s inflation figures, and the outcome of that review will include the new weekly rate of carer’s allowance from April 2025.
Alison McGovern
Apologies, but I feel that I should keep going.
Means-tested benefits can help where appropriate. Universal credit, for example, pays an extra £2,400 a year to unpaid family carers. I do not underestimate the challenges within the universal credit system, and we want to ensure that carers who need it get that support. As I was saying to the right hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton a moment ago, we are looking at different aspects of the system, including by reviewing universal credit to ensure that it does the job we all want it to do. We will set out the details in due course.
Pension credit can also be paid to carers at a higher rate than what those without caring responsibilities receive, and over 100,000 carers receive an extra amount of pension credit because of their entitlement to carer’s allowance. However, we think that as many as 760,000 pensioners who are eligible for pension credit are not receiving it, which is why the Government have already taken action to drive up pension credit take-up. Last month, we started a national campaign to encourage eligible pensioners to check their eligibility and apply. We are asking local authorities to support that and, as the House will know, the Secretary of State and the Deputy Prime Minister wrote to them in August.
Following that, we have seen a 152% increase in applications for pension credit since 29 July, with almost 75,000 applications in just eight weeks. In November we will write to around 120,000 pensioners in receipt of housing benefit who may be eligible but are not currently claiming pension credit, and I encourage all family carers to check that they are receiving all the support to which they are entitled. The gov.uk website has lots of information on carer’s allowance, and 90% of people claim online, although traditional paper forms are available for those who want to claim it that way. I know that organisations such as Carers UK and Citizens Advice are also on hand and do a fantastic job of giving advice.
Financial help for carers is really important, but it is only one pillar of a proper support system. All of us need a balance in life, and that is important for carers too. Most carers of working age want to consider working in some form, and not just for financial wellbeing but to enhance their life and the life of the person for whom they care. We want to help family carers combine their caring responsibilities with paid work where they can. We will review the implementation of the Carer’s Leave Act 2023, which gave unemployed carers a right to time off work for the first time, and we will explore the benefits of paid leave while being mindful of the impact of any changes on small employers. Through the Employment Rights Bill, we will ensure that flexible working, which can play such an important role in helping carers to balance their work and caring responsibilities, is available to all workers, except where it is genuinely not feasible.
The Government will carefully consider the findings of Lord Darzi’s independent review of the NHS, which is very clear about the need for a fresh approach to supporting family carers. Caring is a demanding role in which no one can function at their best without ever having a break, and the better care fund includes money that can be used for unpaid carer support, including short breaks and respite services for carers. As I mentioned at the beginning of my contribution, we will ensure that family carers’ voices are heard as we develop plans to create a national care service as part of our reforms to adult social care.
Every day, unpaid family carers step up when loved ones need their support. Without the contribution of family carers, our country would not function. The pressure on social care in this country is already unbearable; without unpaid family carers, it would become completely untenable.
Jess Brown-Fuller (Chichester) (LD)
For all the talk of a £22 billion black hole, the value that carers give to the economy is £162 billion. Does the Minister agree that it is an absolute scandal that many carers are struggling financially?
Alison McGovern
Our country is in a very serious financial situation indeed. As I said at the beginning of my speech, anyone who thinks that the issue of care ought not to be right at the top of the political agenda is labouring under a serious misapprehension.
This is an important subject, which is why I am proud of the first steps that this Government have already taken to improve support for carers and to address the overpayment of carer’s allowance, which has caused so much distress for thousands of people. This shows our commitment to recognising and valuing the vital role that carers play in our communities. Of course there is much more to do, so it is my hope that, as we deliver the fundamental change that we need, we can work together with carer organisations and with carers themselves with a renewed sense of purpose to ensure that carers get all the support they need to carry out the incredible work of caring and to live full and fulfilled lives.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Andrew Western)
I am pleased to be able to respond to this vital debate, which in both tone and importance has been one of the best I have heard in my two years in this place. I also add my thanks to the right hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Ed Davey) for bringing forward the Opposition day motion today, because this issue is clearly of concern to many Members, and they are right to be concerned.
The right hon. Member is one of many right hon. and hon. Members to have made important contributions and spoken with great passion on this crucial issue. The hon. Members for Salford (Rebecca Long Bailey) and for Carshalton and Wallington (Bobby Dean), my hon. Friend the Member for Hertford and Stortford (Josh Dean), the hon. Member for Harpenden and Berkhamsted (Victoria Collins), my hon. Friends the Members for Wirral West (Matthew Patrick), for Harlow (Chris Vince) and for Paisley and Renfrewshire South (Johanna Baxter), the hon. Members for Stratford-on-Avon (Manuela Perteghella) and for Maidenhead (Mr Reynolds) and others rightly spoke about the important role that millions of family carers play in providing support for disabled or elderly relatives who need care at home. I echo those comments and add my own tribute to all family carers. Much of their tireless work goes unseen and unrecognised.
Like other Members, I am privileged to witness glimpses of carers’ dedication through my correspondence and through events I attend in my constituency. Running through today’s debate was an underlying and understandable anger at the position we inherited from the last Government, whereby family carers trying to do the right thing have been left with staggering overpayments, often running into thousands of pounds. As my hon. Friend the Member for Birkenhead (Alison McGovern) set out earlier, we are making sure that we understand precisely what has gone wrong so that we can put the system right for the long term. Our family carers deserve no less.
Many Members, including the hon. Members for Eastleigh (Liz Jarvis) and for North East Fife (Wendy Chamberlain), my hon. Friends the Members for Shipley (Anna Dixon) and for Bexleyheath and Crayford (Daniel Francis) and the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (Jamie Stone), and of course my hon. Friend the Member for City of Durham (Mary Kelly Foy) and the right hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton, spoke about their own experiences as carers or the work they do locally to support organisations helping family carers. I grew up watching my grandmother care for my grandad, struggling with Parkinson’s disease, before later seeing my mum, one of the many hidden carers up and down the land, care for her mother—my nana—in her final years battling Alzheimer’s disease.
None of us in this House is blind to the work that carers do. They are fortunate to have some wonderful advocates. Those include their MPs, as we have seen today, but also organisations such as Carers UK, the Carers Trust and the Learning and Work Institute, to name but three. The Minister for Social Security and Disability, my right hon. Friend the Member for East Ham (Sir Stephen Timms), and I have already met a delegation of carers and Carers UK, and he will be doing so again shortly. He will also meet separately with the Carers Trust and the Learning and Work Institute, because we are determined to ensure that the voices of family carers and the organisations supporting them are at the heart of everything we do.
I also want to pay tribute to the hundreds of DWP staff, largely based in the north-west, who provide financial support to a million family carers through carer’s allowance, day in, day out. The Government will spend record amounts to support unpaid carers. Real-terms expenditure on carer’s allowance is forecast to rise from £4.2 billion in 2024-25 to just over £4.7 billion a year by 2028-29.
I turn to some of the other points raised during the debate, with apologies that time will permit me to address only some of them. Let me take the opportunity to congratulate and pay tribute to my hon. Friends the Members for Clwyd North (Gill German) and for Weston-super-Mare (Dan Aldridge) and the hon. Member for Torbay (Steve Darling) on their excellent maiden speeches. They painted vivid pictures of their constituencies and I feel certain that they will go on to make significant contributions in this place.
On the wider points, I will begin with the question of the adequacy of carer’s allowance, set as it is at £151 per week. Carer’s allowance will be increased in April 2025 by the consumer prices index to help ensure that it maintains its value. As well as carer’s allowance, carers in low-income households can claim income-related benefits such as universal credit and pension credit. Those can be paid to carers at a higher rate than to those without caring responsibilities through the carer element and the additional amount for carers respectively. For example, over 750,000 carer households on universal credit can already receive an additional £2,400 a year through the carer element. That said, the House should be aware that issues beyond the scope of the independent review announced today are not being ignored; this is merely a first step towards progress. The Government are also looking at the broader question of how to provide the best possible support for family carers, although I do not want to pre-empt that work today.
Let me turn to the question of a taper, which was raised by a number of right hon. and hon. Members. At the moment, introducing a taper in carer’s allowance would significantly complicate the benefit, with awards having to be adjusted manually on a weekly basis for some of those declaring earnings. That would add to administrative costs and could mean more fraud and error. Those also receiving universal credit would need to have that adjusted if their payment of carer’s allowance changed because of an earnings taper rate. A taper could be introduced only following significant changes to the IT system that supports payment of carer’s allowance. For the moment, therefore, it is not possible.
On the potential writing off of overpayments, which was at the heart of many of the excellent contributions that we heard, an overpayment can occur through fraud, or through claimant or official error. The Secretary of State has an obligation to protect public funds and ensure that, wherever possible, overpayments are recovered, but determining what best we can do to support those who have accrued overpayments is within the scope of the independent review, as is how such overpayments occurred and what we can do to ensure that we take all the steps we can to reduce the risk of such incidents happening again.
Let me turn briefly to the comments of the shadow Secretary of State, the right hon. Member for Central Devon (Mel Stride). He listed the many interventions that the last Government supposedly made to improve the lot of carers—seemingly including the private Member’s Bill of the hon. Member for North East Fife—but after 14 years of Conservative government, we see carers who find themselves in heartbreaking situations having racked up huge overpayments. However, the right hon. Gentleman correctly set out the incredibly complex nature of the carer’s allowance system, with allowances for legitimate expenses, pension contributions and so on, and why resolving this matter is therefore not straightforward. That is why the independent review is the correct mechanism and next step to fully understand what went wrong and why, and how we can put things right. I welcome his support for the review.
Many colleagues referred to the role that family carers play in easing pressure on the social care system, and indeed in supporting our economy, and they were entirely right to do so. I acknowledge everything that carers do. They are heroes. We appreciate how much society relies on unpaid carers, we recognise the challenges they face and we understand the need for change. Supporting carers is both a moral and an economic imperative, so we will help carers stay in paid work, we are spending record amounts on carer’s allowance and we will sort out the overpayments scandal we inherited. That is why we have announced the independent review today: so that, together, we can rebuild the trust that has been lost and ensure that those who offer comfort, dignity and support to the ones they love are given all the help they need in return. I hope right hon. and hon. Members will acknowledge that work today by supporting the Government amendment.
Question put (Standing Order No. 31(2)), That the original words stand part of the Question.