House of Commons

Monday 20th October 2014 Commons Chamber

Monday 20 October 2014

The House met at half-past Two o’clock

Prayers

Monday 20th October 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Oral Answers to Questions

Monday 20th October 2014 Commons Chamber

The Secretary of State was asked—

[David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Con)]

1. What assessment he has made of the effect of the maritime support delivery framework on employment at UK naval bases.

[Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con)]

15. What assessment he has made of the effect of the maritime support delivery framework on employment at UK naval bases.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Philip Dunne)]

The maritime support delivery framework contracts are an excellent example of the contribution that the Ministry of Defence makes to sustaining the long-term economic health of the nation's three main naval bases. The contracts total £3.2 billion of spending by the Royal Navy over five years with BAE Systems and Babcock, and will sustain about 7,500 jobs, up to 4,000 of them at Devonport and more than 2,000 at Portsmouth, and about 1,500 at Clyde.

[David Morris]

Can my hon. Friend confirm that there is actual funding in the project, that it is sustainable, and that, unlike the Labour party, we will not leave a black hole in military defence?

[Mr Dunne]

Yes, I can certainly assure my hon. Friend that these contracts are an integral part of the Department’s innovative 10-year forward equipment plan. Not only are they in the plan, but they represent far better value for money for the taxpayer than the previous support arrangements by securing more than £350 million of savings. As my right hon. Friend the Defence Secretary said last month, the last Government left a terrible legacy of waste and mismanagement in the form of a £38 billion black hole in defence, which this Government have eliminated through our long-term plan for defence and improving the efficacy of defence procurement.

[Neil Parish]

Will the Minister join me in praising the work done by civilian contractors throughout the country, and, in particular, that done by Babcock at Devonport naval base in helping to repair and manage the Royal Navy’s warships and submarines, which play a key part in protecting our vital national interests?

[Mr Dunne]

My hon. Friend is right to welcome the stability that these contracts provide for the communities that support the Royal Navy’s three main operating bases. That includes an investment of nearly £2 billion in support activity at the largest base—the one at Plymouth Devonport, to which he referred and which is near his constituency—until 2020.

[Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)]

On the subject of the Royal Navy—still, without doubt, the finest navy in the world—may I ask the Minister how he and his colleagues will be commemorating, and even celebrating, Trafalgar day?

[Mr Dunne]

As the hon. Gentleman knows, Trafalgar day is the source of a great deal of commemoration and celebration throughout the Royal Navy at all its bases, and Ministers are invited to events all over the country in support of those activities.

[Mr Iain McKenzie (Inverclyde) (Lab)]

I am sure that the Minister would like small and medium-sized enterprises to benefit from these contracts as much as large companies. What is he doing to make it easier for SMEs to get into the supply chain?

[Mr Dunne]

As I have told the House during nearly every session of defence questions, securing greater penetration of the MOD’s contracting base by SMEs is an important priority for the Ministry and for me. On Tuesday next week I shall chair the latest SME forum to discuss that very subject.

[Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab)]

2. What progress his Department has made on the next strategic defence and security review; and if he will make a statement.

[The Secretary of State for Defence (Michael Fallon)]

The next strategic defence and security review will be conducted next year by my Department, the Cabinet Office, the Foreign Office, the Home Office and others. Until then, our priority remains delivery on the 2010 review, which gave us a balanced and affordable budget and maintained our armed forces’ reputation while modernising force structure and capabilities.

[Steve Rotheram]

Is the Defence Secretary as concerned as Labour Members about the possibility that by 2020 there will be more seats in Wembley stadium than British soldiers in the Regular Army?

[Michael Fallon]

No. The 2010 review rightly identified the need for agile and flexible forces, and set out the numbers. It is too early to prejudge the review that will be conducted next year, but I am sure that the House will want to salute the achievement of our armed forces in so many difficult parts of the world.

[Rory Stewart (Penrith and The Border) (Con)]

Will the Secretary of State ensure that the new SDSR acknowledges that Russia has radically changed the situation, first by creating a war in Europe and secondly by ensuring that NATO is undermined, and will it plan for what appear to be Russian planning assumptions for a major war in 2018-19?

[Michael Fallon]

My hon. Friend the Chairman of the Select Committee is right. The 2010 review did not predict the scale of Russian aggression in Ukraine, and the recent NATO summit at Newport reinforced the need for NATO members to maintain the level of their spending and to ensure a properly rapid reaction force that can be an effective deterrent to Russian aggression in future.

[Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP)]

The last SDSR made no mention of the high north and the Arctic. Since then, the United Kingdom has never provided any fast jets for northern NATO air policing from Reykjavik, and it rarely provides any naval vessels to take part in northern NATO patrolling. In the last few days, the Ministry of Defence has confirmed that not a single civil servant is working exclusively on this important region. When will the MOD take the northern dimension seriously?

[Michael Fallon]

We do take the Nordic regions seriously: I meet my colleagues from Nordic members of NATO regularly; I look forward to attending the northern summit in Oslo shortly; and we have, of course, participated already in the Baltic policing mission.

[Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con)]

The Secretary of State will be aware of HMS Sultan in my constituency, which is home to the Royal Navy’s school of marine engineering and the first Ministry of Defence training establishment to have received an “outstanding” Ofsted report. Will he confirm that such sites, which are incredibly valuable not only to the MOD but to the local community, will continue to be valued as part of the strategic defence and security review?

[Michael Fallon]

I certainly appreciate the valuable and positive benefits that all defence education and training facilities provide to the armed forces. I am not aware of any current plans to alter the establishment my hon. Friend mentions, and I know that she met my hon. Friend the Minister of State last week to discuss it further.

[Vernon Coaker (Gedling) (Lab)]

May I start by welcoming the Secretary of State to his place and thanking him for the way in which he has tried to work with me? As I have said, where possible I will try to work constructively with him in the national interest. With our armed forces engaged in a new combat mission against ISIL, intervention in west Africa to prevent the spread of Ebola and support in providing relief to humanitarian crises elsewhere, and with increased NATO commitments in eastern Europe, the next SDSR will be crucial in setting the strategic direction for Britain’s armed forces. How does he intend to ensure that preparations for this SDSR, unlike those for the last one, are well informed, properly scrutinised and not rushed?

[Michael Fallon]

I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s welcome, which I hope the House will extend to the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, my hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury (Mr Brazier), who, as Minister with responsibility for the reserves, will make his first appearance at the Dispatch Box shortly.

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his advice, but I am not sure we need too much advice from a party that failed to carry out a defence review for 12 long years. I assure him that this time, unlike the one for 2010, we will be starting from a much better base, where the defence budget has been brought under control and we have equipment programmes that are properly funded.

[Vernon Coaker]

I had two questions, so I split them and was going to welcome the reserves Minister when asking this one, but let me welcome him now. I am sure we are all grateful for the Defence Secretary’s response, such as it was, but would it not be much easier if he simply published the 60 questions that, according to his permanent secretary’s evidence to the Defence Committee, are forming the basis for the next SDSR, as that would allow us to judge for ourselves? Some months ago, we wrote to his predecessor, who refused to share them. We then put in a freedom of information request, which has also been denied. In the national interest, and to ensure an open, transparent debate about the future of our country’s defence, will he today commit to publish the 60 questions and to consult this House properly on them ahead of the next SDSR?

[Michael Fallon]

Let me make it very clear that the next SDSR is being carried out next year. Work has not begun on it this year. Obviously, a certain amount of preparation, thinking and evidence gathering is going on, but we have not started on the review this year—that awaits next year.

[Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con)]

3. What steps he has taken to improve the process for applying to join the reserves.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Julian Brazier)]

All the reserve forces have worked to simplify their application procedures, including through streamlined online processes and shorter medical forms. We have increased capacity in Army recruitment and selection centres, and more mentoring and support for candidates is being provided by their chosen unit. Early indications of those measures are promising, and Army Reserve enlistments over the summer quarter, traditionally the quarter when enlistments are lowest by far, are running at roughly double the levels of last year.

[Damian Collins]

I welcome my hon. Friend and constituency neighbour to his appointment as reserves Minister. The Gurkhas are a much-valued force within the British Army. Would the MOD be prepared to consider creating a Gurkha company within the reserves, if that would help to boost the number of Gurkhas who seek to join the reserves after their retirement or of their children who seek to do so?

[Mr Brazier]

I thank my hon. Friend for his kind welcoming of my unexpected mobilisation. We are indeed looking at ways in which we can get more ex-Gurkhas to join the Army Reserve, but there are legal and practical reasons against establishing a separate Gurkha reserve unit. Given their experience, there are great benefits in ex-Gurkha personnel joining a whole range of Army Reserve units. Gurkhas leaving the Army receive briefs on reserve service as part of their transition support, and we have a programme of using ex-Gurkha reservists to visit Gurkha units to provide case studies of what can be expected.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

I am not a defence expert, but I do chair a skills commission, and I know about the market for certain skills. Is not the problem that the whole reserve policy is bound to fail, because these days most people in our country work for small and medium-sized enterprises that do not allow, or have the capacity for, people to serve as reservists?

[Mr Brazier]

I hugely respect the hon. Gentleman, but I should tell him that these targets are extremely low compared with either our national history or targets in our English-speaking counterparts. A whole range of larger businesses has come on board, 10 of which have already been over to Downing street for their gold awards. As a special incentive for the employers of SMEs, we are offering £500 a month over and above the other award they can get if someone is mobilised. The various branches of Government, including the civil service, are all on the move. This can and will be done.

[Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD)]

Clearly, this is a welcome scheme. What more can be done to promote it to small businesses as a way of encouraging them to be happy about people being reservists?

[Mr Brazier]

We are making use of every possible route. The Federation of Small Businesses is particularly active and helpful on this. The Reserve Forces and Cadets Association and Supporting Britain's Reservists and Employers—SaBRE—which now comes under it, are providing advice to small businesses. A small business connection with just seven employees expressed his concern through a family friend about taking on a reservist. I was able to put him in touch with those organisations and provide reassuring messages. A pack will come out shortly showing how individual MPs can help.

[Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)]

The South Wales valleys have traditionally been a recruitment source for the regulars and the reserves, and long may that continue for those young people who wish to pursue such a career. The valleys are also characterised by a huge proportion of small and medium-sized enterprises. Will the Minister monitor the success of this approach, and has he set targets internally on how he will measure his success with SMEs?

[Mr Brazier]

We are looking at the employment market of reservists in a segmented fashion, but we do not have separate targets for separate sectors. We want to make progress in all areas—Government, large businesses, SMEs and self-employed as well as students, who are now a crucial element and of particular interest to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State.

[Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD)]

4. What the timeline is for deployment of British troops in west Africa; and if he will make a statement.

[Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)]

11. What contribution armed forces are making to tackling the spread of Ebola; and if he will make a statement.

[Mr David Jones (Clwyd West) (Con)]

13. What steps his Department is taking to assist areas affected by the Ebola outbreak.

[The Minister for the Armed Forces (Mr Mark Francois)]

The armed forces are making a significant contribution in tackling the grave threat posed by Ebola in Sierra Leone. RFA Argus, which left Falmouth on 17 October, is due to arrive off Freetown by the end of this month. Approximately 750 UK armed forces personnel will be in Sierra Leone by the end of October. Those personnel are supporting the Department for International Development-led effort and will initially run a 12-bed Ebola treatment centre in Kerry Town for international health care workers; deliver up to 700 additional treatment beds; and set up and run a training academy primarily to train health care workers for those additional beds.

[Martin Horwood]

Given that Ebola vaccines are unlikely to be ready at scale before April and that in the meantime millions could have been infected, does the Minister agree that these kind of military contributions are absolutely vital? Will this country do whatever is necessary for as long as necessary and encourage other countries to do likewise?

[Mr Francois]

Defence is indeed playing a significant role, supporting the Department for International Development, which leads Her Majesty’s Government’s £125-million mission to support Sierra Leone. The defence contribution to controlling the Ebola outbreak in west Africa—Op Gritrock, as we call it—is well advanced. The contribution is led by 2nd Medical Brigade and 104th Logistic Support Brigade. In scale, this represents the second-largest contribution to fighting the outbreak of any country in the world after the United States.

[Charlie Elphicke]

Britain has been at the forefront of handling the crisis. What steps have the Government been taking to encourage other countries to do as much as us? I am thinking particularly of France, where, in Calais, the authorities have lost control of the security situation, endangering themselves and putting us at risk.

[Mr Francois]

Leaving Calais out of it for a moment, there is a need for the international community to do much more to support the effort against Ebola. That includes a need for an increase in spending, and for more support for international personnel working in the region. We recently held a donors conference in London for our international partners. The Ministry of Defence has engaged widely, securing assistance from Norway, Canada and the United Arab Emirates, among others. We urgently need to upscale the international response. EU Foreign Ministers are meeting today in Brussels to discuss this very issue, and the forthcoming EU Council will be a vital forum for us, if we are to take this work forward with our partners.

[Mr Jones]

The families of personnel deployed to west Africa, although undoubtedly supportive, will naturally be concerned about their family members’ well-being, given the virulence of the disease. Can my right hon. Friend confirm that the health of personnel deployed to west Africa is a prime concern for his Department, and that all necessary resources will be made available?

[Mr Francois]

Yes, I can. We take the safety and well-being of our personnel extremely seriously. Anybody, be they military or civilian, deploying to Sierra Leone must meet specified theatre entry standards before being allowed to depart from the UK. That includes a specific Ebola threat brief. I recently visited 22 Field Hospital in Strensall in Yorkshire, and witnessed the staff’s rigorous training, and their professional approach to safety in their preparation. Nevertheless, given the nature of the disease, there will always be some element of risk, so I hope that the whole House will join me in wishing our brave personnel good luck and Godspeed.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

Will the Minister explain to the House what provisions are being made in Sierra Leone to make sure that the treatment facilities that he described, which are being put in place by the British armed forces, remain secure?

[Mr Francois]

We are providing up to 700 beds for the treatment of Ebola-infected patients and, critically, a specialist 12-bed facility to treat health care workers, should any unfortunately become infected. That second element is a magnet, because we must recruit more health care workers to go to Sierra Leone to help fight the disease. I am extremely proud of what our military personnel are doing, and the whole country and the House can be proud of them, too.

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

Last year, the cost that the RAF incurred in supporting the operation in Mali was picked up by an urgent operational requirement, yet an answer last week showed that the cost to RFA Argus had been met by the Department for International Development. Why the difference?

[Mr Francois]

DFID is leading on this operation. It has a clear lead, working with international partners. We in the MOD are supporting the DFID strategy. It is DFID’s lead, and it is paying for this.

[Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab)]

I welcome the fact that the troops have already left, and Members from across the House will have every good wish for the safety and success of the operation. Will the Minister say how many more troops are expected to travel to Sierra Leone in the coming weeks, how quickly we can get them there, and how quickly, once they are there, they will become operational, bearing in mind any extra training that they may need?

[Mr Francois]

I thank the hon. Lady for her bipartisan support for this vital mission, which the whole House will welcome. As I have already outlined, we will have around 750 troops in theatre by the end of this month. We will continue to keep the situation under review, and if further resources are required, we will of course consider that, but I reiterate to the House that we already make the second-largest commitment to the area, and we need to get our international partners to do more. We are doing our bit; we must get our international partners to do theirs.

[Laura Sandys (South Thanet) (Con)]

5. What progress was made in delivering the UK’s priorities at the NATO summit in September 2014.

[The Secretary of State for Defence (Michael Fallon)]

The NATO summit in Wales reached important conclusions on NATO’s response to Russia’s actions in Ukraine, on the 2% of GDP guideline for defence spending, on the reform of NATO, on countering Islamist extremism, on the future of Afghanistan, and on supporting our military and their families, all of which were United Kingdom priorities.

[Laura Sandys]

In the week of the Ukrainian elections, what are NATO and the UK with NATO saying to the people of Ukraine about their uncertain border and insecurity?

[Michael Fallon]

We continue to address this issue through sanctions and through the political work of the European Union. NATO is implementing the decisions taken at Newport, which will see NATO’s responsiveness increase significantly. We have offered four Typhoon aircraft for next year as part of the ongoing policing mission, and the deployment of 3,500 troops as part of NATO exercise activity this year and next. We have also offered a battlegroup and a brigade headquarters as part of the new very high readiness joint taskforce.

[Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab)]

Will the Secretary of State update the House on any subsequent discussions he has had with his Turkish counterpart on what active part Turkey may be playing in dealing with ISIS and Islamic extremism?

[Michael Fallon]

My right hon. Friends the Foreign Secretary and the Prime Minister have been in discussion with our allies about the role that the Turkish Government could play in the middle east. For the Turkish Government, as the hon. Lady will know, it is an extremely complicated situation, but it is important that all the neighbours of Iraq and Syria contribute to the effort to prevent Iraq from falling apart and Syria from falling into further bloodshed.

[Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)]

President Putin’s activities in eastern Ukraine have been largely covert and deniable. Does my right hon. Friend agree that if President Putin tried similar tactics in any of the three Baltic states, that would constitute a breach of article 5 of the NATO treaty? If my right hon. Friend does not agree with me on that, would that not fundamentally undermine the credibility of NATO?

[Michael Fallon]

I do agree with my hon. Friend—the Baltic states are members of NATO and fully entitled to the protection that NATO members afford to each other. It is also important that where we confront such ambiguous warfare, NATO is unambiguous in its response to it and labels an annexation as an annexation and the invasion of Ukraine as an invasion.

[Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)]

The NATO summit announcement on the development of the new Scout armoured vehicle was a good thing. It will help our troops in battle and boost employment at General Dynamics in south Wales and down the supply chain, but can the Minister update us on the possibility of more British jobs on this project, particularly in south Wales?

[Michael Fallon]

Yes, there are jobs involved in the supply chain for that contract, including high-value jobs in design and engineering, which will be in Wales, and in the manufacture of the turrets, which will be elsewhere in England. Other parts of the armoured vehicle are being manufactured in Scotland, so the United Kingdom stands to benefit overall from this project, which is the largest single order given to the Army in over 30 years.

[Mr John Whittingdale (Maldon) (Con)]

6. What assistance his Department is giving to Ukraine.

[The Minister for the Armed Forces (Mr Mark Francois)]

The UK remains firmly committed to Ukraine’s sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity. We welcome the ceasefire agreement reached between Ukraine and Russia in Minsk on 5 September and the subsequent agreement on 19 September setting out the modalities for its implementation. The ceasefire agreement is broadly holding, although there have been a number of breaches on both sides. The MOD will continue to build on its long-standing relationship with the Ukrainian MOD. We have increased our defence engagement, providing additional support on crisis management, anti-corruption measures, defence reform and strategic communications.

[Mr Whittingdale]

As my right hon. Friend is aware, Ukrainian forces recently engaged not just with Russian-backed separatists, but with regular Russian army troops and their armour, which invaded their country and inflicted heavy losses upon them. Will he see what more can be done to rebuild Ukraine’s defence capability?

[Mr Francois]

We are clear that there cannot be a simply military solution to this conflict. We have provided military support and additional non-lethal support in line with Ukrainian priorities. Specifically, the Government have already provided non-lethal support to the Ukrainian security forces, including personal protective equipment, and last week the Government announced their intention to deliver more than £800,000-worth of further kit, including body armour, medical kits and winter supplies. Also at the NATO summit the UK committed to leading a new C4—command, control, communications and computers—trust fund. We have pledged over £500,000 to the C4 logistics and standardisation trust fund as well. With contributions from other nations, those trust funds and wider NATO activity will play a significant role in supporting the Ukrainian armed forces.

[Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) (Con)]

7. What contribution UK armed forces are making to the international effort against ISIL.

[The Secretary of State for Defence (Michael Fallon)]

Britain is making a significant contribution to the international coalition to defeat ISIL: training Kurdish forces and gifting and delivering more than 320 tonnes of weapons, ammunition and other military equipment. Since the vote in this House, the Royal Air Force has flown 37 combat missions, conducting 10 successful strikes, providing valuable intelligence and surveillance, and helping to halt ISIL’s advance.

[Stephen Metcalfe]

I accept that there are no guarantees, but will my right hon. Friend assure the House that all measures will be taken to avoid civilian casualties from air strikes?

[Michael Fallon]

Yes, the United Kingdom seeks to avoid civilian casualties. All air strikes are conducted under UK rules of engagement, which I have agreed for this campaign in accordance with the law. Close observation, careful selection and approval of targets before a strike, and the use of precision weapons, such as Brimstone and Paveway, minimise collateral damage and the potential for civilian casualties, in stark contrast with ISIL’s complete disregard for human life.

[John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op)]

The moderate Syrian opposition continues to fight a two-fronted battle against a brutal dictator on one side and the ISIL extremists on the other. Are the Government actively reassessing their refusal to support these boots on the ground with the weapons that they need?

[Michael Fallon]

The decision to authorise military action in Syria is a matter for this House, and we have made it clear that we would return to Parliament for that authority if we wanted to proceed there. We are already considering the assistance that we might be able to give to help to train moderate Syrian forces and Syrian communities in self-defence, and we are looking now with our allies in the region as to how and where that training could be provided.

[Karl MᶜCartney (Lincoln) (Con)]

RAF Waddington is in my constituency of Lincoln, and many personnel, some of whom I know personally, and assets of the RAF used in any international effort against ISIL are based or controlled from there. Will my right hon. Friend therefore give an update on the work to replace the runway, and will the base be fully operational as planned and well in time to see a return of the international air show at Waddington in 2016?

[Michael Fallon]

I certainly appreciated my visit to RAF Waddington earlier in the summer. Work on the runway has now begun, and it will be for the review of air shows early next year to decide where they can be supported, but I very much hope that the Waddington air show will be able to return in 2016.

[Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)]

The excellent work of our armed forces is being undermined by the number of British citizens who are travelling to Syria and Iraq to fight for ISIL. The numbers are now put at more than 500 from the United Kingdom, and at more than 1,000 throughout the EU. What steps is the right hon. Gentleman taking to work with our partners to try to prevent our respective citizens from travelling abroad to fight?

[Michael Fallon]

The right hon. Gentleman will know better than anybody the work that is being done by the Home Secretary and the Home Office in this regard, stepping up the number of checks that can be made and making sure that those here are deterred from making that journey to fight for ISIL, which as a proscribed organisation therefore involves a criminal offence.

[Mr Andrew Robathan (South Leicestershire) (Con)]

I fully understand the need for democratic support expressed by the House for any military action, and furthermore I have no desire whatever to see our deploying troops either in Iraq or in Syria, but may I gently say to my right hon. Friend, while congratulating him on his relatively new position, that it is important in any military campaign not to rule anything out, because that gives away a great deal to our opponents?

[Michael Fallon]

I hope that it is clear to the House, as the Prime Minister emphasised during the debate, that ISIL can be defeated only in Syria and in Iraq. With the RAF and our own action in Iraq, we have plenty to do to help to check the advance of ISIL, but ISIL’s personnel, equipment and supply routes lie further back in Syria, and it is important therefore that it is countered there, which is why we welcome and support the US and other coalition air strikes that have taken place in Syria.

[Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab)]

What is the Secretary of State’s assessment of the levels of Arab countries’ support for military action against ISIL, in equipment and troops that have been provided, and, equally as importantly, politically?

[Michael Fallon]

Political support for the coalition’s efforts is extremely important, particularly from the countries neighbouring Iraq and Syria, as I have stressed on my visits to the Gulf. Five countries have already participated in air strikes—the United Arab Emirates, Jordan, Kuwait, Bahrain and Qatar. It is very important that the action is seen not simply as British, American or western, but as a regional battle against the advance of ISIL.

[Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con)]

8. What steps the Government are taking to support the export of Typhoon and Hawk aircraft.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Philip Dunne)]

This Government are proud to prioritise economic growth, and this Ministry is proud to support the role of responsible defence exports in contributing to the nation’s economic recovery. The Ministry of Defence is supporting export campaigns for Typhoon and Hawk aircraft, and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, other ministerial colleagues and I are actively engaged with senior military officers and the UK Trade & Investment Defence & Security Organisation in seeking to broaden and deepen the family of user nations among our allies and partners.

[Mark Menzies]

The Minister might be aware that there have recently been announced new job losses in management positions at BAE Systems in Warton in my constituency. Given that the Typhoon is playing such an important role in our defence exports, what progress are the Government making with Typhoons for the Malaysian air force, in the light of Malaysia’s recent election to the UN Security Council?

[Mr Dunne]

Clearly, as my hon. Friend knows, given his proximity to the Warton facility, export growth is important for sustaining jobs in Lancashire. The Typhoon is competing vigorously in a number of export campaigns, including the Royal Malaysian air force’s multi-role combat aircraft requirement. The Government are actively supporting the BAE Systems bid to win the competition and the company has discussed various options to meet the needs of the Malaysian Government. I visited Malaysia earlier this year to support those efforts, and today six RAF Typhoon aircraft from 3(F) Squadron are flying in Malaysia as part of Exercise Bersama Lima.

[Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con)]

9. What assessment he has made of the contribution of armed forces community covenants to the reserves and cadet forces.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Anna Soubry)]

The Government have committed £30 million over four years to fund a range of community integration projects. That work helps to deliver a network of support for our armed forces community, whether regular, reservist, serving or veteran. Full details and accountability will be provided in the annual report on the covenant.

[Mr Walker]

I am grateful to the Minister for her reply. I recently visited the Hereford and Worcester Army Cadet Force at their base in Tiddesley Wood, and a very impressive bunch they are too. Will she join me in commending the decision of the regional grant committee of the armed forces community covenant partnership to fund a new shooting range for those cadets, which I understand will also be available to local reservists?

[Anna Soubry]

I absolutely will not hesitate to commend it and point out that it received a grant of about £70,000. I understand that a further £6,000 has been made available in Worcestershire and Herefordshire for booklets to help ensure that all our service families and personnel know about the services available to them. That is another good example of some great work being done under this Government.

[Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab)]

Will the Minister look again at proposals to charge schools to use the combined cadet force? Llanwern high school in my constituency is one of only three state schools in Wales that has a CCF. I know how much the pupils value it and how much they get out of the experience, but state schools will find it impossible to make the financial contribution when they are contributing in other hidden ways.

[Anna Soubry]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her question. It is important to understand that that is part of expanding our CCFs into all state schools. In fact, we have made great progress on that and anticipate that 100 new CCFs will be ready in September next year. However, it is a consultation and I know that there are concerns. I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her comments and we will listen to everything that is said.

[Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con)]

10. What the next steps are for the commissioning of Type 26 frigates.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Philip Dunne)]

The Type 26 global combat ship is the next major investment for the Royal Navy, following the new destroyers, the new aircraft carriers and, more recently, the offshore patrol vessels. The programme is still in its assessment phase. We want to learn the lessons from previous multi-billion pound contracts to ensure proper value for the Navy and the taxpayer, so we are currently working with BAE Systems to gain greater granularity for the programme, for example in relation to detailed ship design, the supply chain and the contracting structure.

[Richard Graham]

I welcome the Minister’s confirmation of an imminent decision on the Type 26 frigates. In an uncertain world, I believe that they have an important contribution to make on the high seas. Does he agree that Type 26 frigates named after cities would reinforce the Royal Navy’s community links? Should those on the ship naming committee recognise that, does he believe that they will weigh carefully the 360-year history with the city of Gloucester through the 11 previous Fighting Gs?

[Mr Dunne]

As for every new class of Royal Navy warship, the naming of the Type 26 frigates will follow a theme. My hon. Friend will not be surprised to know that he is not alone in seeking to advance the cause of UK cities. He is also not the first to make such strong representations in favour of Gloucester, the city he so forcefully represents. I will ask the Ships’ Names and Badges Committee to note his interest in attempting to revive the name HMS Gloucester, given its impressive heritage.

[Sir Peter Luff (Mid Worcestershire) (Con)]

Names matter, but so do numbers. Can the Minister assure us that at least 13 of these fine ships will be built for the Royal Navy?

[Mr Dunne]

I thank my hon. Friend for that question. He is well aware that the strategic defence and security review 2010 is looking at the number of ships for the Royal Navy, to include up to 19 destroyers and frigates.

[Sir Nick Harvey (North Devon) (LD)]

The Minister said that we will learn lessons from previous programmes. Can he assure me that the mistakes of the Type 45, which set out wishing to be an international project with a big export market, but ended up as a magnificent but very expensive ship, will not be repeated? Will the Type 26 be kept affordable in the global market?

[Mr Dunne]

This is part of the rigorous work that we are doing at the moment to ensure that the Type 26 design is modular to allow for regular upgrading as systems improvements take place over the decades to come. As my hon. Friend knows from his work in the Ministry of Defence, we have had a number of engagements with other international navies to see whether they might be interested. While it is likely that the interest will be more in systems than in platforms, we are taking that work forward continuously.

[Mr Dominic Raab (Esher and Walton) (Con)]

14. What steps he is taking to reduce the number of legal claims against his Department.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Anna Soubry)]

The Ministry of Defence conducts a wide range of activities, many of them inherently dangerous, and faces many legal claims arising from them. It is an absolute priority that when we accept liability, we get on and settle the case, and, equally, that when we resist it, we do so with vigour.

[Mr Raab]

Does the Minister agree that human rights reform should include curtailing the jurisdiction of the Strasbourg Court, which, by expanding in unprecedented ways human rights on to the battlefield, where international humanitarian law already applies, has created legal confusion and operational distractions, and diverted precious public money away from investment in our troops?

[Anna Soubry]

I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. It is completely lost on me as to why the European Court of Human Rights should be involved, when, as he says, there is already international humanitarian law and, of course, the Geneva convention, both of which are tried and tested. That is how we make sure that things are done properly; we do not need the ECHR in this respect at all.

[Gemma Doyle (West Dunbartonshire) (Lab/Co-op)]

On the subject of legal claims, I am sure that the Minister has seen the Royal British Legion’s 2015 manifesto, which brings to light a breach of the principles of the armed forces covenant whereby veterans who contracted mesothelioma as a result of their service before 1987 are unable to sue the MOD and instead apply for 100% war disablement pension. That means a difference of over £100,000 less in the possible total payments to those veterans compared with their civilian counterparts, because the newly established compensation scheme for civilians pays a lump sum, whereas the war pension scheme does not. Will she review this matter urgently to avoid unnecessary legal action and to ensure that the principles of the covenant are being applied across Government?

[Anna Soubry]

I do not need to review it urgently because the review is under way. Indeed, I have had a meeting with my officials in the past few weeks, so I am very much alive to the issues. The situation is a bit more complicated than the hon. Lady has explained it, because further complications are involved. However, I hope to be in a position to be able to explain the conclusions that we hope to come to very swiftly.

[Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)]

16. What assessment he has made of the criteria used by the Commonwealth War Graves Commission to determine the level of maintenance of war graves; and if he will make a statement.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Anna Soubry)]

Graves are maintained by the Commonwealth War Graves Commission predominantly for Commonwealth armed forces personnel who lost their lives in the first and second world wars. Since January 1948, all service personnel who die in military service and receive what we call a service-funded funeral are entitled to have their grave marked with a military pattern memorial regardless of the circumstances of the individual’s death. If their next of kin chooses to mark their grave with a military pattern headstone, my Department will offer to maintain that headstone and grave at public expense. Families are free to choose to mark the grave with a private memorial. In those cases, the MOD does not maintain the grave.

[Philip Davies]

I am very grateful to the Minister for that helpful answer. A constituent came to see me recently to tell me that her son, who served in the armed forces and was killed in a terrorist attack, could not have his grave tended by the Commonwealth War Graves Commission because he was not killed in active service. Could the Minister confirm whether that is right or not, whether there should be such a distinction and whether anything can be done to help my constituent?

[Anna Soubry]

I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for that question and I know that he wrote to the Ministry of Defence only last week; in fact, I saw the letter this morning. I am more than happy to meet him to discuss the matter, because I think it may not be quite as simple as it appears at first blush. I am sure we can find a way of resolving it and am happy to meet both him and, of course, his constituent.

[Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)]

First, may I declare an interest as a Commonwealth War Graves Commissioner? The question that has just been asked relates to the confusion between MOD graves and Commonwealth war graves. Is the Minister aware that the MOD maintains large numbers of non-commissioned headstones in Germany? Will she have a look at what plans are in place to maintain those graves post-2014, after the British Army withdraws from Germany?

[Anna Soubry]

The simple and short answer is yes, I am more than happy to look at that.

[Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD)]

The anomaly is not acceptable, because post-1945 war graves have not been maintained by the Commonwealth War Graves Commission. I would suggest that this is in breach of the armed forces covenant. If there is a will, there is a way. The CWGC should be allowed to take over and maintain those graves of military personnel who have died since 1945.

[Anna Soubry]

Again, I am very grateful for those comments and happily take them on board. I am happy to look at the issue and report back both to the hon. Gentleman and to the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones).

[Mr Speaker]

If the Minister is able to induce happiness in the hon. Member for Colchester (Sir Bob Russell), it will be regarded, I think, by all as a great triumph.

[Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)]

17. What recent assessment he has made of the effectiveness of the UK’s contribution to the future stability of Afghanistan.

[The Secretary of State for Defence (Michael Fallon)]

The United Kingdom can be proud of its achievements in Afghanistan. The terrorist threat from the region has substantially reduced. We have helped to build the Afghan national security forces, which are now 330,000-strong and lead on providing security. The United Kingdom remains committed to supporting the new Afghan Government and the Afghan forces as part of the new NATO mission after 2014.

[Dr Lewis]

As a new Defence Secretary—I congratulate him on his appointment—my right hon. Friend may not be aware of my view that strategic bases are necessary if the hard-fought gains in Afghanistan are not to unravel. Given that we ourselves are not going to provide such a strategic base, what news does he have of whether the Americans will do so, given the recent welcome sign of an agreement between them and the Afghan Government?

[Michael Fallon]

I was, in fact, aware of my hon. Friend’s views, which he always articulates so forcefully. The international community has reaffirmed its commitment to Afghanistan at the NATO summit. On current plans, the resolute support mission will have approximately 12,000 personnel. It plans to operate one hub in Kabul/Bagram and four spokes to that hub in Mazar-e Sharif, Herat, Kandahar and Jalalabad. We, of course, have made our commitment to assisting with liaison, support and training at the officer academy.

[Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) (Con)]

18. What progress his Department has made in upgrading helicopter fleets across the armed forces.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Philip Dunne)]

This has so far been a stand-out year in rolling out more than £11 billion of our investment programme in helicopter capability. During this year alone we have already achieved, within time and budget, initial operating capability for the Merlin Mk 2, which we brought in four months ahead of schedule, and the Army Wildcat. We also expect that initial operating milestone for the Puma Mk 2 and the Navy Wildcat next year. We have also achieved the in-service date for the Chinook Mk 6 and taken delivery of six of the 14 new helicopters.

[Caroline Nokes]

I thank the Minister for that response. He will be aware of the importance of Middle Wallop, the Army Air Corps and the school of Army aviation. Given that the training for the Army Wildcat is conducted at Yeovilton, what reassurance can the Minister give on the future of Middle Wallop in Army 2020?

[Mr Dunne]

Middle Wallop, as my hon. Friend has just told the House, is the home of the Army Air Corps school of Army aviation. It will continue to play an important part in preparing our helicopter crews of the future, including the Apache conversion to type training for Army pilots and ground crew.

[Mr John Whittingdale (Maldon) (Con)]

T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

[The Secretary of State for Defence (Michael Fallon)]

My immediate priorities remain our current operations in Afghanistan and against ISIL and Ebola, as well as the commitments reached at the NATO summit and the delivery of Future Force 2020 by building up our reserve forces and investing in the equipment that our armed forces need to keep Britain safe.

[Mr Whittingdale]

Will my right hon. Friend join me in congratulating the Red Arrows on their 50th display season this year? Will he give an assurance that the future of the Red Arrows is secure under a future Conservative Government? The shadow Secretary of State was unable to give such an assurance for a future Labour Government.

[Michael Fallon]

Yes. As the Prime Minister made clear, so long as there is a Conservative Government, the Red Arrows will continue flying.

[Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab)]

The reported bonus package allowable under new Treasury rules for the new chief executive officer of Defence Equipment and Support would certainly embarrass a banker. In the interests of openness and accuracy, will the Minister confirm exactly how many freedoms and flexibilities there will be? Importantly, have the proposed managed service providers been told about them, and if so, please will he make them available to Members of the House and the shadow defence team?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Philip Dunne)]

The hon. Lady is referring to the recent advertisement for the new chief executive of DE&S. I think that she and the whole House will agree that for one of the largest procurement programmes in Government—£14.5 billion a year out of a £164 billion programme—we need to get the best person for the job, who needs to be adequately rewarded. I will leave it at that, because the recruitment process is in progress. As far as the MSPs are concerned, the freedom allows us to recruit 25 people within DE&S at in excess of the Prime Minister’s salary.

[Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con)]

T2. To return to cadet forces, the excellent Sandbach school in my constituency has run a popular combined cadet force since 1948. The head teacher, Sarah Burns, has told me that the leadership and life skills it develops are particularly positive for the most disadvantaged pupils who attend. It is a vital part of community life, but proposed funding changes threaten its future. May I add my voice to those urging the Minister to review these plans?

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Anna Soubry)]

I thank my hon. Friend not just for her question, but for her letter. I have seen letters from various schools in her constituency, and I note that a large number of them are state schools with existing CCFs. It would not be our plan at all to threaten any existing CCF, and we will do everything we can to ensure that that does not happen. However, we have to look at a good funding solution for our expansion programme, which is exactly—with a new Secretary of State—why we have consulted on it.

[Mr Iain McKenzie (Inverclyde) (Lab)]

T7. I welcome the contract awarded for maritime support at HM Naval Base Clyde. Will the Minister give more detail about how many apprenticeships will be created through the contract?

[Mr Dunne]

I can give the hon. Gentleman a little extra detail, but I may not satisfy him completely. The contract values by location are £1.98 billion at Devonport, £600 million at Portsmouth and £632 million at the Clyde, which breaks down to £2.6 billion for Babcock and £600 million for BAE Systems. Of course, both those companies are intimately engaged in the defence apprenticeship programme.

[Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)]

T3. In May, I joined North West Leicestershire district council in signing up to the armed forces community covenant. Will the Minister update the House on how many councils have now signed up to the covenant, and what assessment her Department has made of the resulting benefits to members of the armed forces and their families?

[Anna Soubry]

I am pleased to say that all local authorities have now signed up to the covenant. We must now make sure that everybody delivers on it. If I may say so, it is beholden on councillors and, indeed, MPs to make sure that we now see real delivery at local level and put the covenant into practice so that none of our service personnel and their families, or indeed our veterans, suffers any disadvantage because of their service.

[David Wright (Telford) (Lab)]

What local economic impact assessment is being undertaken on each of the bids coming in as part of the Defence Support Group sell-off?

[Mr Dunne]

The hon. Gentleman will be well aware that the DSG bids are being evaluated. I will not be in a position to enlighten the House further until the evaluation has been completed.

[Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD)]

T5. I listened with interest to the Minister’s responses to my hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) about Ebola. I welcome his commitment to providing further resources, if they are needed. Given how quickly the situation can change with Ebola, how frequently will he review the need for more personnel? Has he considered training more people to deal with Ebola before they go into the field?

[The Minister for the Armed Forces (Mr Mark Francois)]

As I hope I made plain to the House, we have taken extreme care to train all the people who will be deployed to Sierra Leone to take on this difficult disease. It is important to remember that we are doing that not in isolation, but with international partners. For instance, the United States is leading in Liberia and France is leading in Guinea. We need to get more international partners to join the fight to beat this disease.

[Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Lab)]

The Minister for the Armed Forces will know that, with the support of the North Staffordshire chamber of commerce, I had arranged to visit the west Mercian Regiment in Fallingbostel in the spirit of the armed forces covenant. Unfortunately, the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority did not approve the designated journey. Given that IPSA, after representations from various people, has reconsidered its policy, does the Minister agree that it is of the greatest urgency that it should issue revised guidance on the scope for proper visits?

[Mr Francois]

I congratulate the hon. Lady on her doggedness. As she will recall, we have had exchanges on this matter before. She has persuaded IPSA to change its mind, which does not happen every day of the week. We congratulate her and are considering erecting a small statue to her in Parliament square.

[Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) (Con)]

T6. I welcome the deal that the Secretary of State signed last week in Gibraltar. Does he agree that it shows that the UK’s commitment to Gibraltar is as strong as ever?

[Michael Fallon]

Yes. The agreement that I signed last week with the Chief Minister, whom we welcome to London today, is for the resurfacing of the runway, a transfer of surplus land for the benefit of the Gibraltar economy and the fuller incorporation of the Royal Gibraltar Regiment, all of which demonstrates our long-term commitment to Gibraltar and should leave nobody in any doubt as to the strength of British sovereignty there.

[Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)]

Given their localism rhetoric, why have the Government ignored their published guidance on the disposing of assets at market value to public authorities that express an interest in acquiring them in the case of Kirton in Lindsey air base?

[Anna Soubry]

I am aware of that issue. In fact, I have just signed a letter to the hon. Gentleman. I am more than happy to meet him to discuss the future and what has happened.

[Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)]

T8. What impact will the decision to use, rather than sell, the second aircraft carrier, the HMS Prince of Wales, have on the defence of the realm?

[Michael Fallon]

I am delighted to confirm our decision to deploy the second carrier within the Royal Navy. It will ensure that we have one carrier available 100% of the time, either at sea or at very high readiness. The carriers will give us unprecedented flexibility over the next 50 years to deploy our power globally to assist in joint strike fighter operations, peacekeeping, conflict prevention missions and the provision of aid and assistance in times of humanitarian crisis.

[John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op)]

What will the Government do to help unblock the long-stalled deal with the Indian Government for the innovative Barrow-designed and built M777, and when will the Army start using that superb piece of kit?

[Mr Dunne]

The hon. Gentleman is a doughty champion and I pay credit to him for his work in helping BAE Systems to conclude its contract with the Indian Government. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State is due to visit India between now and Christmas. We are in active discussions in support of the US efforts—the contract is being placed through BAE Systems Inc.—to secure the order.

[Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)]

T10. What steps is the Secretary of State taking to ensure that Iraqi forces can conduct a ground war against ISIL?

[Michael Fallon]

I can tell my hon. Friend that 2nd Battalion the Yorkshire Regiment is already training the Kurdish peshmerga in how safely to maintain, operate and use British-gifted heavy machine guns. We have run one course and a second course is under way. We are working on additional courses in specialist skills. We will, of course, authorise further commitments to train Iraqi or Kurdish troops, if it is consistent with the strategy to defeat ISIL on the ground and consistent with the support of our coalition allies.

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

I welcome Thursday’s statement from the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, the hon. Member for Ludlow (Mr Dunne), about the submarine dismantling project. Will the Minister confirm that as far as he is concerned we are still on course for early dismantling, and will he meet me before the end of the year to discuss further the future of Rosyth?

[Mr Dunne]

I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s support for the consultation, which will take some time. We are arranging consultation exercises in public in each location proposed on the shortlist—of which his constituency is one—and I would be happy to meet him before Christmas as part of those efforts.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

The only way that we will militarily defeat ISIL is to face it in battle on the ground. Will my right hon. Friend say which of our allies and friends in the middle east have committed themselves to providing forces such as infantry to close with the enemy and deal with them?

[Michael Fallon]

It is our view that the advance of ISIL can only be dealt with, and that it can only be driven back to the border by, a home army of Iraqi and Kurdish forces that other countries are ready, able and willing to support, help to train, and provide with arms and ammunition. We have made it clear that neither ourselves nor the Americans will deploy our combat troops on the ground.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

How many bombing raids has the RAF been involved with in Iraq to date, and on what basis does the Secretary of State judge how effective they have been?

[Michael Fallon]

Around 37 combat missions have been undertaken by the Royal Air Force since Parliament gave that authority, and a further mission is being conducted today. Success is measured not simply by the number of airstrikes, but also by the intelligence gathered and the surveillance in support of ground forces. That has already had some success in pushing ISIL back to the civilian areas.

[Jack Lopresti (Filton and Bradley Stoke) (Con)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that to maintain our essential Apache helicopter capability a procurement decision for the upgrade must be made soon?

[Mr Dunne]

My hon. Friend is aware that the Ministry is considering a number of options to sustain the attack helicopter capability. We have not yet made a final decision on procurement strategy, but we expect to do so soon. Our existing fleet is due to remain in service until 2025, and in January this year we announced a £500 million package of support to keep the aircraft flying until 2019.

[Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)]

When awarding defence procurement contracts, large or small, what levers do Ministers have to ensure that supply chain economic multipliers are maximised, particularly in areas such as south Wales that give so much in other ways to our armed forces?

[Mr Dunne]

As my right hon. Friend the Defence Secretary told the House in answer to an earlier question, the contract to award the Scout armoured vehicle is the largest single contract that has been placed under this Government since 2010, or to the British Army for 30 years. The Ministry’s job is to get the best deal with the prime contractor, and it is down to the prime contractor to secure the best supply chain.

[Michael Ellis (Northampton North) (Con)]

There is an unsatisfactory anomaly whereby war widows can keep their pensions if they remarried before 1973 or after 2005, but not in between. That is an unhappy and unsatisfactory anomaly for war widows, so will the Secretary of State or the Minister look at it?

[Anna Soubry]

We have a new Secretary of State, and he, I, and other Ministers, continue to consider that issue. Notwithstanding how much sympathy—perhaps that is not the right word—but support we might have for the argument made, there is a real legal problem and difficulty with retrospection, and that also occupies our minds when deciding what to do.

[Sir Nick Harvey (North Devon) (LD)]

What can the Minister for reserves tell us about the future of the Barnstaple Territorial Army centre? He knows that the existing unit does not want to relocate more than an hour’s drive to Exeter, so can they stay where they are?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Julian Brazier)]

I was with the Royal Wessex Yeomanry on Saturday, and in the gentlest possible way may I remind my hon. Friend—of whom I am extremely fond—that he promised me a short written brief on the subject? I look forward to discussing that with him and seeing what can be done.

Point of Order

Monday 20th October 2014 Commons Chamber

15:34

[Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek your guidance. The Backbench Business Committee has had to move its meetings to 1 o’clock on a Tuesday, which means that a lot of Members who want to come to the Backbench Business Committee cannot now be present for some of the opening speeches in a debate. Is there something Members can do to ensure that, if they come to the Backbench Business Committee, they are not disadvantaged in participating in those debates?

[Mr Speaker]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her point of order. The Chair, collectively, always does its best to accommodate colleagues who have disparate and sometimes conflicting commitments in different parts of the House. One has to tread very carefully on these matters because although the centrality of the hon. Lady’s Committee to the affairs of the House is well understood and appreciated, there are many other Committees that also sometimes meet when the House is sitting. Therefore, if the argument is that people are in front of that Committee and cannot also be in the Chamber and might miss out, that would apply to a miscellany of different Committees, so it is something on which I would like to reflect carefully. Suffice it to say, whether there is a formal ruling made on the matter or not, the Chair always does its best to ensure that people are not disadvantaged.

Social Action, Responsibility and Heroism Bill

Monday 20th October 2014 Commons Chamber

Consideration of Bill, not amended in the Public Bill Committee

Clause 1

When this Act applies

15:36

[Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab)]

I beg to move amendment 1, page 1, line 4, at end insert—

“( ) Nothing in this Act confers on any person immunity from civil liability, nor does it change the relevant standard of care in negligence or breach of statutory duty”.

With all due respect to you, Mr Speaker, and to the House, I do not think the House will dignify the Bill with much by way of a debate. It has been comprehensively trashed even by its supporters. I think that of 24 witnesses originally asked by the Government to give evidence in Committee, only five turned up. Most of those, even if they supported the principle of the Bill, said how poorly it was drafted. Even the Forum of Insurance Lawyers, which represents the interests of defendants and insurers in whose interests the Bill is drafted, did not have a kind word to say about it. It was buried on Second Reading by the shadow Lord Chancellor, my right hon. Friend the Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan) and, not least, by the hon. and learned Member for Harborough (Sir Edward Garnier). It was dug up and reburied in Committee, and there are only so many times that its corpse can be paraded around Parliament. Indeed, the only thing the hon. and learned Member for Harborough was wrong about was to say that when the Bill becomes an Act it

“will be the subject of derision and confusion”.—[Official Report, 21 July 2014; Vol. 584, c. 1204.]

It is already the subject of derision and confusion.

Amendment 1, and the other amendments we have tabled, reiterates some of what was put forward in Committee. I make no apology for that. We are simply trying to get an answer from the Minister on the points on which he was either vague or contradictory, and, in the last chance before the Bill leaves this House, to see what exact purpose lies behind it.

Amendment 1 states:

“Nothing in this Act confers on any person immunity from civil liability, nor does it change the relevant standard of care in negligence or breach of statutory duty.”

It might seem surprising to need a clarification of that order, but that is exactly what is necessary because the Government have not been clear from day one on whether the Bill seeks to change the law or not. In the pre-publicity, if one can put it that way, the Lord Chancellor said:

“It does not rewrite the law in detail or take away discretion from the courts, but it sends a signal to our judges and a signal to those thinking about trying it on”.—[Official Report, 21 July 2014; Vol. 584, c. 1187.]

Whether the proper purpose of legislation is to send a signal to those thinking about trying it on, I leave it to other Members to comment on.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

I know that my hon. Friend is a very good forensic lawyer. I have the same dilemma as he does: it is hard to be in favour of the Bill, but it is hard to be against it. Where does it come from and what was its purpose? Using his forensic skills, can he tell us who was behind its inclusion in the Queen’s Speech?

[Mr Slaughter]

As I would expect, my hon. Friend asks a very good question. It comes from the media grid in the Ministry of Justice. There was a vacant slot in The Mail on Sunday and something had to be pushed forward for the weekend. I see the Minister was in charge of spin this weekend. He has obviously been promoted to Lord Chancellor. Not only can the Lord Chancellor not be bothered to come to the House any more, but he cannot even be bothered to do The Mail on Sunday. How extraordinary! However, I admired the Minister’s performance over the weekend, particularly dealing with questions about whether he had been the subject of abuse himself. I was glad he was surprised by the question. Someone as emollient as him would never be the subject of abuse by his constituents or anybody else’s.

My hon. Friend the Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman) makes the crucial point. What is the purpose of the Bill, other than as a piece of spin? If we say, “The Bill promotes volunteering and encourages people to intervene where they can be of assistance”, who would not be against sin in that way? But of course that is not the whole purpose, and when we come to the second set of amendments, I will explain that there is an insidious part of the Bill, in clause 3.

Returning to amendment 1, will the Minister clarify—he has tried several times already in Committee—whether the Bill changes the law? This is a key point. After some consideration and umming and ahhing, he said that clause 3, unlike clauses 2 and 4, would change the law. He said:

“We consider that clause 3 represents a change in that it ensures that the court takes into account a defendant’s general approach towards protecting the safety and interests of others when carrying out an activity. It is the general issue that is relevant there.”––[Official Report, Social Action, Responsibility and Heroism Public Bill Committee, 9 September 2014; c. 75.]

I cannot see how that is any different from what is in clauses 2 and 4, which he concedes do not change the law.

[Andy McDonald (Middlesbrough) (Lab)]

It might help the House if I quote from the House of Common research paper:

“The Bill would not change the existing overarching legal framework, or leave victims without protection, and the courts would still be able to find that a person had been negligent or in breach of a statutory duty in relevant circumstances.”

Why are we here? What is this about? What is the point of the Bill?

[Mr Slaughter]

Indeed. In responding to this amendment in Committee, in flat contradiction to what I have just quoted, the Minister said:

“Nothing in the Bill suggests that it gives immunity from civil liability. It also does not change the standard of care that is generally applicable… The Bill simply requires the court to have regard to certain factors in deciding what steps should have been taken to meet that standard of care in a particular case.” —[Official Report, Social Action, Responsibility and Heroism Public Bill Committee, 9 September 2014; c. 63.]

As was pointed out ad nauseam to the Minister, the doctrine of negligence in common law has been developed not over years but over centuries. Furthermore, there is already guidance in legislation—the Compensation Act 2006 being the obvious example—insofar as it is needed, but generally the courts do not need guidance in considering all the relevant factors. As I said, however, when we come to clause 3, we will perhaps see what the Government’s ulterior motive is.

I do not wish to labour the point; I simply wish to have an answer from the Minister. Will the Bill—clause 3 or any other part—make any difference to how the law of negligence works in the courts? If so, will he indicate how and explain the motivation? If it does not, what is the purpose of the Bill? I await his response.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Shailesh Vara)]

The introductory comments by the hon. Member for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter) are typical of his form. When he was talking about my interviews yesterday in the media about abuse, I thought for a moment that he might be referring to some abuse that he had hurled at me during a debate, but he did not go that far.

I appreciate that the purpose of amendment 1 is to clarify that the Bill does not confer immunity from civil liability on any individual or change the standard of care that is relevant in claims involving negligence or breach of statutory duty. I explained to the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues in Committee why I thought such an amendment was not needed, but I am happy to explain our position on this again. As for whether the law has been changed, I will deal with that substantially when we debate clause 3, which is in the second group of amendments for this debate on Report.

15:45

There is absolutely nothing in the Bill that suggests it will give immunity from civil liability to anyone. Even if a defendant had been acting for the benefit of society, intervening in an emergency or acting responsibly during an activity when he injured somebody, he could still be found negligent or in breach of a statutory duty if the court considered that he did not meet the required standard of care. The Bill is not designed to encourage people to take unnecessary risks with people’s safety, nor does it remove the court’s ability to do justice in an individual case.

[Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD)]

Does the Minister accept that if first aid was made part of the national curriculum, there would be a whole generation of young people coming through who knew what to do in a road crash, for example? The first rule for those going to assist in a road crash is to ensure that they and others are not put at risk; in other words, they have to safeguard the patient or patients. Does the Minister accept that if first aid was taught as part of the national curriculum, everybody would know that?

[Mr Vara]

It is eminently sensible that everyone should have some education in first aid, but as far as the rule is concerned, I will deal with substantive matters of that sort in the next group of amendments. What I will say now, in a general way, is that there is a change, but there is also a message that the Bill sends out, which I will deal with in due course.

[Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab)]

I am obliged to the hon. Gentleman for giving way. I wonder whether he could define “heroism”, which is in the title of the Bill. What does it mean? What is the definition?

[Mr Vara]

May I respectfully say to the hon. Gentleman that we are dealing with amendment 1, not heroism, which will be dealt with subsequently—I will be happy to come that—in the second group of amendments?

[Mr Sheerman]

The hon. Gentleman and I have known each other a long time. We are good friends and I have a high regard for him, but for the minority of us present who were not on the Committee, will he give a pithy explanation of the guts of the Bill? What does he think is really at its heart? He would probably go to the barricades for the Bill; and if so, why?

[Mr Vara]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right: we are good friends—I hope his Whips will not hold that against him. He made his contribution on Second Reading and he has certainly made his presence felt in this debate, if not in Committee. The Bill outlines a general responsibility, which must be taken into account by the courts. It sends a powerful message to the courts: when somebody is doing the right thing, the courts must take that into account. As for the decision itself, that will be made by the court, given all the circumstances of the case. That will be fact-specific, but the Bill will tell the court that it must take into account those factors.

[Karl Turner]

rose—

[Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab)]

rose—

[Mr Vara]

I will give way, but I want to answer the question that was put to me. The Compensation Act 2006 has been referred to; indeed, the shadow Chancellor specifically asked on Second Reading what the difference was between this Bill and that Act. There is a very important distinction, which is that the Compensation Act says that the court “may” take into account certain factors; this Bill says that the court “must” take into account certain factors. We do not have to be lawyers to appreciate that there is a fundamental difference between the two.

The other thing that this Bill does is send a powerful message to the members of the public that if they do the right thing, the court will take that into account and they should not be inhibited from doing the right thing in any heroic acts, social activities or whatever.

[Mr Cunningham]

rose—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. The Minister is a legendarily diligent and conscientious fellow and among the most courteous of Members. He was on the path of virtue. He was led astray by the hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman), albeit with his characteristic charm and insistence; but the Minister should not persist away from the path of virtue even if it is Members with decades of experience who are naughtily seeking to tempt him in that direction. We must now focus on amendment 1, as we are not having a Second Reading debate. Being the sort of dutiful, law-abiding fellow that the hon. Member for Coventry South (Mr Cunningham) is, I am sure his intervention will be entirely in order.

[Mr Cunningham]

I am certainly trying, Mr Speaker.

I am not too familiar with this Bill and I was not a member of the Committee that considered it. One thing strikes me, however. Is not the definition of “self-defence” a factor in the issue? In the past, there have been incidents of people defending themselves yet finding themselves on the wrong side of the law. Is that part of the issue?

[Mr Vara]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, but I shall do as guided by Mr Speaker, as self-defence is not an issue I am dealing with in connection with this amendment.

The Bill does not change the relevant standard of care that applies when a court is considering whether somebody has been negligent or has breached a relevant statutory duty. The court will continue to look at what an ordinary and reasonable person should have done in all the circumstances of the case. The Bill simply requires the court to have regard to the factors in the Bill before reaching a decision on liability. It does not tell the court what conclusions to draw or prevent a person from being found negligent if the facts of the case warrant it.

As I said in Committee, if in a finely balanced case the court considers the factors in the Bill and decides that this should tip the balance in favour of a defendant who had been acting for the benefit of society, demonstrating a generally responsible approach towards the safety of others during an activity or intervening to help someone in an emergency, we would welcome that outcome. It will be for the courts to decide how much weight to give these factors on a case-by-case basis, but we do not consider that there is any risk of the clause being misinterpreted by the courts as somehow granting individuals immunity from civil liability or changing the standard of care that is generally applicable. In that light, the amendment is unnecessary, and I hope that the hon. Member for Hammersmith will withdraw it.

[Mr Slaughter]

I shall not press the amendment to the vote; we can continue our discussion in connection with the second group of amendments. Let me tell the Minister, however, that his explanation has continued to go around in ever-decreasing circles. The two points at the heart of the Bill, raised in a number of interventions, are these. First, is the Minister attempting to change the law or not; and, secondly, is he attempting to fetter the discretion of the judiciary? What he said in respect of the distinction he wishes to make between the Compensation Act 2006 and this Bill suggests that he does wish to do that. Section 1 of that Act says “may”, while this Bill says “must”. If the Minister wants to make that distinction, the only explanation must be that he wants to fetter the hands of the judiciary in dealing with these matters, giving rise to the suspicion that it is entirely inappropriate. However, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 3

Responsibility

[Mr Slaughter]

I beg to move amendment 2, page 1, line 12, leave out “generally”.

[Mr Speaker]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment 3, page 1, line 13, leave out

“or other interests of others”

and insert “of employees or bystanders”.

Amendment 4, page 1, line 13, at end insert

“in relation to the circumstances leading up to the alleged negligence”.

Amendment 5, page 1, line 9, leave out clause 3.

Amendment 6, in clause 4, page 1, line 17, leave out from “danger” to end of line 18.

[Mr Slaughter]

I will deal briefly at the end with the amendment relating to clause 4. It raises the issue posed by the hon. Member for Colchester (Sir Bob Russell) about St John Ambulance and its concerns about the Bill. Amendments 2 to 5 deal with what is effectively the Bill’s only operative clause, clause 3. Again, I make no apology for saying that these amendments were put in Committee.

Amendments 2 to 4 propose ways of improving the drafting of what everyone from the Law Society to legal practitioners and commentators has described as one of the worst-drafted pieces of legislation they have ever seen. Our concern is that clause 3 is drawn very widely. It states:

“The court must have regard to whether the person, in carrying out the activity in the course of which the alleged negligence or breach of statutory duty occurred, demonstrated a generally responsible approach towards protecting the safety or other interests of others.”

That is hedged around with many generalities. What is a “generally responsible approach”? What does the “safety or other interests” of others mean? Our amendment 4 attempts to clarify the clause by adding the words

“in relation to the circumstances leading up to the alleged negligence”.

The Minister was made aware of this point in Committee so I shall not explain it at length, but the purpose of our amendments is to ensure that if material other than that specifically relating to a particular incident is taken into consideration, it should have a direct causal link—through time, location or type—to the incident being complained of. Otherwise, we risk opening up many cans of worms. In relation to an accident at work, for example, the entire conduct of an employer or employee over a long period could be taken into account, as could working practices and conditions, as well as “other interests”, whatever they might be. I suspect that, in trying to keep the ministerial team happy, the parliamentary draftsmen have been scratching their heads and trying to come up with something. Our amendments are meant to be genuinely constructive in trying to improve the drafting of the Bill—if that is possible. But I shall say no more about that.

[Andy McDonald]

Amendment 2 proposes leaving out the word “generally”, in the context of the person who might have difficulty showing that they have demonstrated a “generally responsible approach” towards protecting the safety of others. My hon. Friend has rightly focused on the word “generally”. The hon. and learned Member for Harborough (Sir Edward Garnier) has said that he suspects the Bill will be the subject of derision and confusion if it is enacted as drafted, but is that not already the case?

[Mr Slaughter]

At best, the word “generally” adds nothing to clause 3. At worst, it could mean that everything including the kitchen sink is thrown into litigation by defendants who are desperate to show that they are not liable for a particular tort. That could lead to additional costs and complexity, red herrings, satellite litigation and who knows what? I hope that the Minister will at least go so far as to say that the drafting of the clause could be improved. Having said that, I do not think its drafting could be improved; it simply needs to go. I therefore hope that he will agree to amendment 5 and sacrifice the clause. He would be losing only one clause out of the five. I am sure the Bill would be just as good with four clauses as with five.

I will not repeat what I have said in previous debates on the Bill, but the Minister has said at some stages that this is an attempt to change the law. In more candid moments elsewhere, he and the Lord Chancellor have indeed suggested that this is an attempt to skew the balance in personal injury litigation, particularly between employers and employees. An article in The Daily Telegraph has described the proposals as sending a

“blunt message to the trade union officials who bring thousands of negligence cases against employers every year”.

I do not know whether the Minister has ever been a member of a trade union or whether he is familiar with their work, but much of the unsung detailed work that they do on behalf of their members is exactly in this area of assisting with litigation against employers in meritorious cases, just as any other solicitor might do. Personal injury cases are not brought for fun or to make a political point. They are brought because there has been an injury and there is substantial evidence of negligence. We fear that the clause is designed to weaken the ability of those who have suffered injury at work—or elsewhere, but I suspect that it is primarily directed at injury at work—to take their cases to court, and that they will either not be able to bring those cases or will not succeed with them, despite their merit.

16:00

[Sir Bob Russell]

Will the shadow Minister join me in congratulating all those involved in producing the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974, which celebrated its 40th anniversary this year? An estimated 40,000 lives have been saved in the workplace, and there was not a single fatality during the construction of the Olympic stadium.

[Mr Slaughter]

I absolutely agree with the hon. Gentleman. The Act was a landmark piece of legislation—one of those seminal pieces of legislation—and it could not be more different from this Bill. It has made a cultural change, and has indeed been responsible for saving many hundreds, if not thousands, of lives.

[Mr Jim Cunningham]

I am sure my hon. Friend has noticed that a Labour Government introduced the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act. Does he agree that this Bill confuses issues of health and safety with issues of negligence? There does not seem to be any real difference that warrants the definition.

[Mr Slaughter]

This Government have already been responsible for full-frontal, across-the board assaults on health and safety in the workplace, from the changes in part 2 of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012 to the changes in the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Act 2013 in relation to strict liability in breach-of-statutory-duty cases. This is just another of those assaults, but I believe that it is an ineffective attempt. I have confidence in our courts, and I am sure that even if the Bill is passed unamended, the judiciary will treat it with the contempt that it deserves. They will consider the matters that are dealt with in the Bill, as they would have anyway, but they will not give those matters undue consideration because of what is in the Bill, and they will continue to find for meritorious claims and against unmeritorious ones. Of course, it remains the case that if an employee is on a frolic of his own—if he is, as the Lord Chancellor would say, trying it on—the courts will find that out, because that is exactly what the trial process is about. The Bill does nothing but add confusion.

If clause 3 is intended to change the law—no doubt the Minister will clarify that—for whose benefit is it intended to change the law? It seems to me that the Government can only be seeking to bring in extraneous factors which will allow a defendant to deflect from or evade responsibility in negligence and breach-of-statutory-duty cases. The cards are stacked very much in favour of the employer in such cases. The employer controls the accident site, and the employer, directly or through his insurer, has the weight of finance and advice. The employee is often restricted, first, by nervousness about suing his employer; secondly, possibly by his injury; and thirdly, possibly by a lack of income as a result of the incident.

Why would a Government wish to set out to hobble a claimant in that respect other than because some blind prejudice causes them to consider all claims by employees against employers to be unmeritorious? The same motivation led to the 80% decline in employment tribunal cases that has followed the introduction of fees, and the Government have shown the same attitude to health and safety generally in their cuts to the Health and Safety Executive, as a result of which inspection regimes are not what they were, despite the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act. Unless the Minister either agrees to amendment 5 or can, very persuasively, show us that it would not have any material effect, I suspect that we will press the amendment to a vote.

Let me briefly deal with clause 4, about which a number of issues were raised in Committee. We have not sought to bring those up again, but one or two of the interventions were about the definitions of “heroic act” and “hero”, and about other poor drafting. I will not address those points this afternoon but, given the criticism from Members on both sides of the House, it is worth asking the Minister whether he will consider withdrawing the final words from clause 4:

“without regard to the person’s own safety or other interests.”

St John Ambulance has clearly made the point that that is an irresponsible provision. It does not add anything; all it encourages is reckless behaviour likely to put either the putative hero or others engaged in such action at some risk. It is a loose and careless piece of drafting, and the Minister would do himself credit if he simply withdrew it. The brief that St John Ambulance prepared for us not only made that point clearly, but made the point raised by the hon. Member for Colchester (Sir Bob Russell).

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

The one thing the person will not think about when he or she sees something that they could help with is any Bill or legislation. They will think, “I’ve got to do something. I’ve got to help this person.” Whatever we legislate on, we have to make sure that someone who really cares is not inhibited from taking such action.

[Mr Slaughter]

I could not agree more. The hon. Gentleman’s comments undermine the whole purpose of this Bill, which is, supposedly, to exhort the public to do things that they would almost certainly do anyway. I do not think the public need this Bill to be encouraged to volunteer or to be told that they should intervene when situations demand. The practical point, which St John Ambulance makes, is that if there was a much greater emphasis on first aid training and on people being competent to intervene, not only would the outcome of interventions be better, but people would feel more confident about intervening. The evidence shows that the principal reason for non-intervention is that people lack the confidence to know what to do and fear that they may make the situation worse. I do not believe for a moment that people do not intervene because of concerns for their own safety.

[Mr David Hamilton (Midlothian) (Lab)]

Does my hon. Friend share my concern that we have to make sure that this is pushed through under Sewel, because although this is English and Welsh legislation, its effects will cover the whole of the United Kingdom?

[Mr Slaughter]

Indeed. The Minister must be picking up, if not from this debate, but from the Bill’s previous stages, that at best there is weariness with more soundbite legislation and littering the statute books—[Interruption.] I believe that the Minister of State, Ministry of Justice, the right hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) has the brief within the Justice team to stop unnecessary legislation across government. He has taken his eye off the ball, because he cannot stop unnecessary legislation in his own Department.

The Under-Secretary must appreciate that criticisms are not coming just from Opposition Members. Although I do not expect him at this stage to abandon the Bill in its entirety, although he might as well put it out of its misery, he could at least take on board some of these sensible and constructive points. I appreciate that they are coming from me and so he might not want to do that, but other Members on both sides of the House have made the point about the wording of

“person’s own safety or other interests”

and about the poor drafting of clause 3.

[Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)]

I totally agree with the hon. Gentleman on amendment 6, and I would happily vote with him if he put that to a Division. There is support from Government Members, although I fear that as it is coming from me it may fall on the same deaf ears.

[Mr Slaughter]

I assure the hon. Gentleman that I listen carefully to everything he says and give it exactly the due weight it should be given. I am very tempted by the thought that we might push our numbers up by one, but I hope that the Minister may give way on this measure and by the time it emerges from the other place the Bill will be improved at least to that extent.

Clause 3 is quite a dangerous provision. We have not voted against the Bill as a whole, because the Bill on the whole does nothing. Clause 3 will be ineffective if it is passed, but its intention is malevolent. It is harmful to good industrial relations and harmful to health and safety in the workplace, and it is a piece of prejudice that this Government and this Minister should know better than to pursue.

[Mr Vara]

As the hon. Member for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter) said, the issues were debated at length in Committee; indeed, notwithstanding our very thorough debate on the Bill, three sittings were left spare. Given the track record of the Labour Government, the Opposition’s claim that the Bill is unnecessary is extraordinary.

The hon. Members for Hammersmith and for Barnsley Central (Dan Jarvis) have tabled several amendments in relation to clauses 3 and 4. Let me respond first in relation to amendment 5, which would remove clause 3 from the Bill, and explain why it is important for the clause as a whole to be retained. I will then deal with the other amendments.

Clause 3 provides that a court, when considering a claim for negligence or breach of a relevant statutory duty, must have regard to whether the defendant, in carrying out the activity in which the alleged negligence or breach occurred, demonstrated a generally responsible approach towards protecting the safety or other interests of others.

The core aim of the clause is to provide reassurance to ordinary hard-working people who have adopted a generally responsible approach towards the safety or other interests of others during the course of an activity that the courts will always take that into account in the event of something going wrong and their being sued. We also hope that, by showing them that the law is on their side, the clause will give them greater confidence in standing up to opportunistic and speculative claims.

The need for that measure is amply illustrated by the evidence provided to the Committee by, for example, voluntary organisations and the emergency services. The damaging effects of the fear of litigation on people’s willingness to volunteer, and the propensity of some involved in accidents to bring opportunistic and spurious claims, were emphasised.

I am sure that the House will be surprised and indeed appalled by the example given by the Cheshire fire and rescue service, which has been sued by passers-by who have tripped over hoses being unwound by firemen to extinguish a fire. Those rescue workers were clearly acting in an emergency and their priority was to reach anybody who might be inside a burning building—[Interruption.] Opposition Members may smile and laugh, but that case is absolutely true.

The Government believe that it must be right in such cases to require the courts to take into account the general approach of the defendant towards safety during the course of the activity in question.

[Sir Edward Garnier (Harborough) (Con)]

I am both fascinated and amazed by the hosepipe case. Does my hon. Friend know what happened to that claim?

[Mr Vara]

I do not know the outcome, but the fact that those people took legal action in the first place is the issue. People should not feel that they can try something on. My hon. and learned Friend is a distinguished lawyer and will probably know what the outcome would be. Perhaps he would like to enlighten the House in that regard.

The issue was not what the outcome was, but that Cheshire fire and rescue service was taken to court in the first place. To those who may still have concerns about the possible effects of the clause, I would emphasise that the provisions do not direct the courts to the conclusion they should reach and will not prevent a finding of negligence or breach of statutory duty where that is warranted. I am confident that the courts will continue to take a common-sense approach to these cases, and will exercise the flexibility that the clause gives them, so that in each case they reach a just decision, in the light of all the circumstances.

16:15

On points of detail, amendment 2 asks courts to consider whether the defendant was responsible, rather than generally responsible, during an activity, and amendment 4 ask courts to focus on the defendant’s approach to safety

“leading up to the alleged negligence”,

as opposed, for example, to their track record on health and safety matters over a longer period. As I explained when the hon. Member for Hammersmith tabled the amendments in Committee, they are unnecessary. Clause 3 already states that the courts should look at whether the defendant adopted

“a generally responsible approach towards…the safety…of others”

during the activity in which the alleged negligence occurred. That makes it perfectly clear that the Bill is concerned with the approach that the defendant adopted in the course of the events that led to the injury, and not with their actions in other unrelated circumstances, or their health and safety record over a number of years. During the activity in which the incident took place, if the person’s actions were risky or careless, and that caused injury, there is nothing in clause 3 to stop them being found negligent.

[Andy McDonald]

What parameters is the Minister setting for courts by including such a woolly, vague and indeterminate word as “generally”? What if someone says, “A week last Tuesday, I behaved really properly, but on this occasion, I behaved like a nutcase”? Which one is it? This is a ridiculous way to go about legislating.

[Mr Vara]

It is not for me or this place to dictate to the courts the decisions that they should come to. It is for us to make the law, and for the courts to take account of all the facts that may apply to that case and come to their decision. That is how the constitution of this country has operated for centuries, and will continue to, as far as we are concerned. The clause says that if a person carries out an activity in a way that demonstrates

“a generally responsible approach towards protecting the safety…of others”,

and, despite their best efforts, something goes wrong and somebody is injured, the court should take full account of the circumstances. That represents a change, in that case law does not currently oblige a court to consider whether a person took a generally responsible approach to safety during the activity in question. I believe that it is a desirable and beneficial change that is both fair and proportionate.

Amendment 3 seeks to limit the effect of the clause to people who have been taking a generally responsible approach to the safety of “employees or bystanders”. The hon. Member for Hammersmith indicated that that was intended to prevent the provision from being interpreted as extending to entirely non-safety-related matters, such as protecting shareholders’ profits.

[Mr Slaughter]

On a point of clarification, if the Minister is saying that there is a change of law in clause 3 because the “generally responsible approach” is not in case law or statute, is he saying that the provisions in clauses 2 and 4 relating to acting for the benefit of society and acting heroically are in case law or statute?

[Mr Vara]

As I said in Committee, where we debated this at length, clause 3 does make a change, for the reasons that I just gave. The purpose of the Bill is twofold. First and foremost, it directs the court to take into account certain factors that, at present, it has discretion to take into account under the Compensation Act 2006. Secondly, it sends the powerful message to members of the public who otherwise may not act in certain circumstances that the law is on their side.

On Second Reading, the hon. Member for Plymouth, Moor View (Alison Seabeck) gave the example of a time when she stepped off a bus and saw someone lying on the ground, and was told by people who were standing by that they were worried that they might be sued, and so did not want to do anything, or words to that effect. My hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy) also gave an example: when he, as a first responder, went to places to give people medical attention, others were standing by, saying that they were afraid of legal consequences and were therefore not taking any risks. The legislation sends out a powerful message to the public that the law will be on their side.

We have deliberately drafted the clause broadly so that it focuses on whether the defendant demonstrated a generally responsible approach towards protecting the safety or other interests of others. This ensures that it will be relevant in a wide range of situations and will enable the courts to take account of all relevant circumstances and apply the provisions as flexibly as possible to achieve a just outcome. The clause is not restricted to personal injury claims and could in principle be applicable in relation to other instances of negligence, such as damage to property or economic loss, where issues of safety may not necessarily be relevant. That is why a broad definition has been used.

Narrowing the clause, as the amendment would, would mean that many bodies such as voluntary organisations, religious groups or social clubs which demonstrate a generally responsible approach towards protecting the safety or other interests of their clients or members would not be able to benefit from its provisions. That cannot be right.

Amendment 6 would remove part of the wording in clause 4 which clarifies what is meant by “acting heroically”. Specifically, it would remove the final words of the clause, which refer to acting

“without regard to the person’s own safety or other interests.”

I am grateful to hon. Members for tabling the amendment, as we have been considering the issue carefully in the light of similar representations made by St John Ambulance and the Fire Brigades Union during the Committee stage. St John Ambulance indicated that the wording conflicted with first aid practice that discourages first aiders from putting themselves at risk, and the Fire Brigades Union warned that the clause more generally might conflict with advice to the public not to intervene.

After giving this matter further thought, we remain of the view that the courts will interpret the words

“without regard to the person’s own safety”

in accordance with our intended meaning—that a person acts heroically by intervening to assist someone in danger, regardless of the fact that doing so might risk his or her own safety. The example I used in Committee was of a person who sees somebody struggling to stay afloat in a fast-moving current. That person might jump in to help on the spur of the moment, without first deliberating whether he might be putting his own life at risk.

[Philip Davies]

I do not have an objection on the same grounds as St John Ambulance or the Fire Brigades Union. My objection to the wording that the amendment deals with is that it contains an unnecessary additional hurdle. The clause does not state “or without regard”. It states “and without regard”, which introduces an unnecessary extra hurdle. Even if somebody acts heroically, they may well still have some regard for their own safety, but they may go on to ignore that. However, to say that they must have had no regard for their own safety renders the clause, in my view, unworkable.

[Mr Vara]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving me the opportunity to clarify the point, and I regret that I clearly have not been able to do so thus far. I refer to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) when he spoke of someone acting spontaneously. If somebody were to witness a situation which required their assistance—for example, if somebody was drowning and it was necessary to jump in and save them—and they were able to do so, I am minded to say that that person would not say, “Well, I need to take account of the law here. If I were to jump in, is account going to be taken of whether I considered this dangerous or not?” If somebody is capable of saving that drowning person, they will jump in and save them. The courts will take account of all the facts of the case and I am confident that the present wording is necessary, the courts will take account of everything, and it will not be held against anybody that they may temporarily have considered danger.

[Philip Davies]

Will my hon. Friend indulge me one more time?

[Mr Vara]

Certainly.

[Philip Davies]

I appear to be speaking in a different language. I clearly cannot get through to the Minister so I will try to phrase my objection in a different way. Can he give us an example of something that would not be covered that should be covered if the wording ended after the word “danger”? What scenario that he wants included would not be included if the wording stopped at “danger”?

[Mr Vara]

My hon. Friend will appreciate that hypothetical examples are somewhat redundant, given that I mentioned earlier the independence of the judiciary, and that it is for the courts to decide on the facts of each case. I cannot stand at the Dispatch Box and predict specific circumstances. It is for the court to take account of the specific facts in a specific case.

We do not consider that the clause will be misinterpreted by the courts or the public as somehow excluding people who did in fact have regard to their own safety or other interests, perhaps in the split second before they dived in, but decided to intervene anyway. Nor do we think that it would be interpreted as sending a signal that members of the public should recklessly expose themselves to danger. We think that the wording and intention of the clauses are clear, and, on balance, we do not think that the amendment is necessary. I hope that on the basis of my explanation, the hon. Member for Hammersmith will be persuaded to withdraw the amendment. In the event that he wishes to press amendment 5, which would delete clause 3, I would urge the House to reject it.

[Sir Edward Garnier]

rose—

[Mr Speaker]

Ah, Sir Edward Garnier.

[Sir Edward Garnier]

I do not know whether it is “Ah, Bisto” or just “Ah”, but thank you, Mr Speaker.

[Mr Speaker]

Ah, in a state of eager anticipation.

[Sir Edward Garnier]

You should hold your horses, Mr Speaker.

All of us who have practised as lawyers, and my hon. Friend the Minister is one such, have had to pick up a duff brief from time to time, and I am not entirely sure that it is fair to pin upon my hon. Friend the difficulties in which he finds himself in trying to explain this Bill. I was rude enough about it on Second Reading, and my hon. Friend was gracious enough politely to refer to my concerns. Both he and I were fortunate that I was not on the Committee dealing with the Bill, but it is fortuitous that I happen to be here this afternoon to invite those listening to, or reading the debate in due course, to read into this brief set of remarks—for the second time when I speak, I notice my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State finds it convenient to leave the Chamber, but there we are—what I said on Second Reading, because I do not think anything has been done to the Bill since Second Reading to alter my mind about it. I do not take a trade union view. I do not take a cataclysmic view of the sort expressed by the Opposition spokesman that this is a Bill designed to undermine workers’ rights, or whatever it may be. I just think that it is a particularly silly piece of legislation. If I am to be rude, I might just briefly explain why.

I can understand that clauses 2 to 4 provide the basis upon which the court exercises its consideration in clause 1. So when considering a claim that a person was negligent or in breach of a statutory duty, it can take into account, or, as it says in the Bill, “have regard to” what is set out in clauses 2, 3 and 4. But I am not at all sure, and I wish I was in a position to be convinced by my hon. Friend, that were a court to have regard, as it is required to by the legislation, that it would be in a better position than that of a court dealing with the case now, given the state of the common law and the existing statutory provisions.

Clause 2—I speak generally to the amendments—invites the court to have regard to whether the person, presumably the defendant,

“was acting for the benefit of society or any of its members.”

I would be interested to know whether that is a matter of law or a matter of fact. Sometimes a judge is required to rule as a matter of law that something is or is not in the public interest. Sometimes that decision can be informed by evidence, but by and large it is a matter of law on which the judge is required to make a decision. I appreciate that we are dealing here with judge alone cases; we are not dealing with judges and juries. But the judge will have to separate his or her mind into the fact-finding part of his brain and the law-deciding part of his brain. It is not difficult, but it has to be done. If we are to be clear about what the Bill is meant to do, we need to know whether a benefit of society or any of its members is a matter of law or evidence. Again, how does that really affect the current state of the law?

Clause 3 states that the court must also have regard to

“whether the person, in carrying out the activity in the course of which the negligence or breach of statutory duty took place, demonstrated a generally responsible approach towards protecting the safety or other interests of others.”

We heard a degree of teasing from the Opposition about the “generally responsible approach”, but I am afraid that the issue is a bit too serious for teasing. I want to know—it is not clear—whether evidence of that responsible approach is to be garnered from one’s lifetime as a member of a fire service or ambulance service, or as an individual, a school teacher or whatever it might be, or by and large from the occasion on which the negligence is alleged to have taken place.

16:30

I can well understand that there will be such cases. The Cheshire fire service hosepipe case is almost beyond parody—as my hon. Friend the Minister mentioned it, I can assume only that it is a real case—but I cannot believe that it got beyond the issuing of the county court summons or the High Court proceedings before somebody struck it out. That is what the courts do: if they see a vexatious, frivolous or wholly unmeritorious claim, they strike it out. We do not need the might of the Social Action, Responsibility and Heroism Bill to deal with that. Again, I ask the Minister whether a “generally responsible approach” is to be decided as a matter of law or a matter of fact.

Should someone—an individual or organisation—who has an otherwise meritorious claim lose out against an otherwise negligent defendant simply because on one occasion they were woefully negligent, despite showing a generally responsible approach for 20 years? Let us imagine that an emergency service dug a trench across a highway in order to lay a pipe or cable to assist with protecting the safety or interests of others. Let us also imagine that on this occasion—the first since it started doing good works—it stupidly forgot to put up lights and warning signs, which meant that I, a member of society, with interests, rode my bicycle into the trench and suffered grievous personal injuries. Because the defendant has generally been responsible, would I be unable to recover damages for my injuries and therefore have to fall upon the state as a welfare beneficiary, or have I misunderstood what the Bill is trying to do? I would really like to know.

Clause 4 states:

“The court must have regard to whether the alleged negligence or breach of statutory duty occurred when the person was acting heroically by intervening in an emergency to assist an individual in danger”.

I make my preliminary point again: is an act of heroism something that is found by the judge as a matter of law, or is it a matter of fact that could change from one set of facts to another? I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) and, it pains me to say so—[Laughter.] No, it does not pain me to agree with my hon. Friend—I do that with relish—but it pains me to agree with our political opponents across the Floor, because I am yet to hear a coherent explanation for the use of the words in the clause

“and without regard to the person’s own safety or other interests.”

I think that my hon. Friend the Minister said it does not make any difference. Well, if that is the case, then do not stick it in. We are making black letter law, and we should not scribble down the first thing that comes into our heads because it makes us all feel better about ourselves.

We all want people to do dangerous things to assist others. As I said on Second Reading, in some respects it is much braver to take into account one’s own safety and yet then to go on and do the rescuing. If I am diving into the river above the weir, I will think that is not a very sensible thing do, but none the less a child is drowning, and so I go in. Does the court have a different answer to the question if I am a barely sentient creature but can none the less see that a child is drowning and therefore go in?

I really do think that the courts will treat this Bill with derision—I used that word on purpose on the previous occasion—unless we are clear, as makers of the law, that we are doing something to improve the situation in an intellectually sustainable and coherent way. I sincerely regret the fact that so far this Bill does not do that, although I think that the motive behind it is entirely positive and laudable. I am used to bits of Bills sending messages and signals—albeit that that is an improper use of legislation—because that is what we do nowadays. We do not think about what is in the legislation; we just think about the flags we are running up the flagpole in order to send a message.

I urge the Minister, between now and the arrival of this Bill—

[Karl Turner]

Bin it!

[Sir Edward Garnier]

Not quite that.

Between now and the Bill’s arrival in the other place, I urge Ministers and the very bright lawyers and policy assistants at the Ministry of Justice to have another think about it. At the moment, it is a silly Bill, and I do not like being party to the passing of silly legislation, no matter how well motivated it is. Having said all that, I apologise to my hon. Friend the Minister because he is a decent, honest and great Justice Minister; it is just his bad luck that he was holding the parcel when the music stopped.

[Mr Slaughter]

I will take one of the hints from Government Members—I am not going to encourage more than one vote in relation to these matters. I do not think I can improve on what the hon. and learned Member for Harborough (Sir Edward Garnier) has said, very gently, but very persuasively and firmly, about this Bill. I can see from the Minister’s demeanour that he is as embarrassed by the Bill as, is almost everybody else in the House.

I do not know whether the Minister has had an opportunity to look at the Law Society’s briefing, and neither do I know whether that briefing is a retaliation for his slightly ill-tempered treatment of the Law Society witnesses in Committee, but it puts the icing on the cake of what we have heard from the hon. and learned Gentleman. It points out that the Bill will impact not only on the matters that we have been discussing but

“on the selling of financial products, on the rights of children in care, on property transactions, on insurance transactions; indeed, an endless list that will include every sector of industry, every area of public activity and every kind of personal interaction outside marriage and criminality.”

It raises the issue of

“how evidence of heroic state of mind will be demonstrated.”

It says that the Bill

“seeks to influence judicial decision-making which the Society believes is inherently wrong.”

Those are very trenchant and well-made criticisms of the Bill.

I am afraid that the more one examines the Bill, the more it seems, notwithstanding the amendments we have tabled, that it is almost irreparable—that it is, as the hon. and learned Member for Harborough said, a silly Bill that it would be better to strangle before it gets on to the statute book.

[Karl Turner]

Is not this shambles of a silly Bill a good example of why the person holding the office of Lord Chancellor should be legally trained?

[Mr Slaughter]

I am not going to go down that route today. The Lord Chancellor does not often grace the House with his presence on Justice Bills any more, or take part in these debates, so it is almost as though he has absented himself from the legal world entirely. We wish him good luck with his future career, whatever discipline he chooses next to address.

I take comfort from the Law Society’s belief that

“the Bill has been poorly drafted and will not prevent meritorious claims being made and won where, in any scenario, negligence and/or breach of statutory duty has been proved.”

The Opposition and, I think, the hon. and learned Member for Harborough are of the view that the Bill will be treated with disdain and polite ignorance by the courts and therefore we do not need to fret too much about it.

I do not intend to press amendments 2, 3, 4 or 6 to a vote. However, because we believe that clause 3—in its intent, if not in its execution—is a harmful, misleading and rather spiteful little clause designed to further attack provisions for health and safety at work, we will press amendment 5 to a vote. On that basis, I beg to ask leave to withdraw amendment 2.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment proposed: 5, page 1, line 9, leave out Clause 3.—(Mr Slaughter.)

Question put, That the amendment be made.

16:41

Division 59

Ayes: 145

---

Labour: 142
Independent: 1
Plaid Cymru: 1

Noes: 260

---

Conservative: 217
Liberal Democrat: 41
UK Independence Party: 1

Third Reading

16:55

[Mr Vara]

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.

I thank all hon. Members who served in Committee, and those who have spoken on Report. It has been an interesting and lively debate, although there has been disagreement at times. I also say a big thank you to members of the Bill team and to the Clerks for their advice and support throughout, which have been much appreciated.

Although this is a short Bill, its three substantive clauses are nevertheless important. As I said earlier, the responsibility clause will reassure ordinary hard-working people who have adopted a generally responsible approach towards the safety of others during the course of an activity that the courts will always consider the context of their actions in the event that something goes wrong and they are sued.

We do not want people who try to do the right thing to worry constantly that somebody will take them to court. My right hon. Friend the Justice Secretary has been clear from the outset that he wants to reassure owners of small businesses and other employers who live in fear that an opportunistic or disgruntled member of staff may bring an unfounded negligence claim at the drop of a hat. In such circumstances, we hope that the Bill will give responsible employers greater confidence that there is no need to worry about defending themselves in court.

This is not just about protecting employers from negligence claims brought by employees, and in Committee we heard worrying examples of how the compensation culture can affect other organisations. As I mentioned on Report, the Cheshire fire and rescue service talked about members of the public bringing claims after they had tripped over fire-hoses in broad daylight, ignoring the flashing lights and liveried firefighters who were attending the scene of an emergency. It cannot be right that unjustified claims are brought against members of our emergency services who are doing their best in difficult conditions to save the lives of others. The Campaign for Adventure also warned that a litigious climate can produce a culture of fear that inhibits innovation, exploration, learning and altruism. We are committed to defeating that culture of fear.

The Bill will help all those hard-working individuals, organisations and small businesses who do the right thing and adopt a responsible approach towards the safety of others in the course of an activity by ensuring that that is taken into account by the court in the event of a claim. It will help to discourage speculative and opportunistic claims, and give confidence to responsible employers—and others—to resist them.

The social action clause will help to foster an environment of civic-mindedness and promote volunteering by reassuring those who make a positive contribution to society that the law will be on their side in the unlikely event that they are sued. Members of the House might recall that the coalition agreement included a commitment to

“take a range of measures to encourage volunteering and involvement in social action.”

That is precisely what we have been doing through the many initiatives that we have backed to increase participation in civil society, and I am glad that the proportion of people volunteering is steadily rising. The Bill will build on the progress we have already made by tackling the perception of the compensation culture, which can influence the willingness of people to volunteer. We know that worries about liability remain a real issue for some would-be volunteers. In his evidence to the Bill Committee, Dr Justin Davis Smith of the National Council for Voluntary Organisations confirmed that the fear of being sued prevents

“a significant proportion of people getting involved”.––[Official Report, Social Action, Responsibility and Heroism Public Bill Committee, 4 September 2014; c. 11, Q14.]

We hope that the social action clause will go some way to allaying the fears of people who are deterred from getting involved. Parliament has a significant role to play in highlighting what is valued in society. The Bill seeks to deliver a positive message. It is a message that social action is desirable, a message that responsible behaviour will be recognised, and a message that the law is on the side of those who undertake socially beneficial activities.

The final limb of the Bill, on heroism, addresses another key area of concern. Unfortunately, often people are unwilling to intervene in emergencies because they are worried they might be sued and ordered to pay damages if they try to help. At previous stages of the Bill we heard examples of such behaviour, both from Members and from those giving evidence to the Bill Committee. The Bill therefore seeks to address such concerns by reassuring the public that if they act heroically by selflessly intervening to provide assistance in an emergency, that will be taken into account by the courts should a claim of negligence be brought against them.

As the examples I have given demonstrate, the Bill applies to a wide range of situations and emphasises that the actions of those who seek to serve their communities are valued by the law. It will be relevant to those who act for the benefit of society by engaging in organised voluntary activities, or to those who perform acts of kindness for individual members of the community, such as assisting an elderly neighbour with day-to-day tasks. It will be relevant to those who demonstrate a generally responsible approach to the safety of others, whether in the work environment or in other contexts, and to those who selflessly assist others in emergencies. All of those people will be able to rest assured that full account will be taken of the context of their actions, should something go wrong and they are sued.

I emphasise again that the Bill does not confer immunity from civil liability for those whose actions fall within the scope of the Bill. Those who are injured by negligence will continue to have access to legal redress, and the Bill will not remove the court’s ability to do justice in an individual case. Courts will continue to be able to consider all the facts of an individual case, and nothing in the Bill will prevent a person from being found negligent if the circumstances of the case warrant it.

There has been some criticism of the Bill, particularly from members of the legal profession. I want to make it absolutely clear that this is not a Bill aimed at pleasing lawyers. It is a Bill that gives support and reassurance to ordinary people who act responsibly and for the benefit of society. The Bill adopts a fair and sensible approach that allays the fears of those who wish to undertake socially beneficial action, reassures organisations and individuals that a responsible approach to safety is recognised, and encourages a culture of altruism, not one of compensation. I commend the Bill to the House.

17:03

[Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab)]

I, too, thank all those involved in the passage of the Bill through this House. I will keep my comments, like the Bill, short. Of course we all want to see even more people volunteering. We all want even more social action. We all want even more heroism from the great British public. The Bill, however, will not be the reason for any of that happening.

The Bill received great fanfare from the Justice Secretary. When it was first unveiled, he trumpeted to the press how he would slay “the ’ealth and safety culture”—his dropped “h”, not mine. The media were fed grand promises that the Bill would rid us of the compensation culture, but the reality set in almost straight away. It soon became obvious that the Bill would do none of the things the Justice Secretary claimed it would do. It was soon plain for all to see that it was simply a big public relations stunt. This was squarely in the “spin first, think through the details later” category of legislation.

Those who knew their stuff were quick to round on the Bill. For many, including some of the Government’s own advisers, there is simply no evidence of a health and safety or compensation culture. The Justice Secretary is developing a habit of ignoring, or not even seeking, legal advice on his pet projects, and sometimes he even shoots the messenger. The former Attorney-General, the right hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield (Mr Grieve), advised that the Bill was “utter tosh”—another reason, no doubt, why he was sacked at the last reshuffle.

The Justice Secretary needs to know that any expert—solicitor, barrister or anybody else—worth their salt would have told him that his Bill would have little if any impact on the health and safety or compensation culture. That is precisely what happened when the Bill had its Second Reading, when the Government could not muster a single Member to make a speech in favour of it. The only Government Member who did speak was the hon. and learned Member for Harborough (Sir Edward Garnier), the former Solicitor-General, who is in his place. He said:

“I have a horrible suspicion that if the Bill becomes an Act as it is currently drafted, it will be the subject of derision and confusion, or that even if that does not happen, it will fall into disuse.”—[Official Report, 21 July 2014; Vol. 584, c. 1204.]

Today, I think he called it a silly piece of legislation, and I am sure he will be speaking shortly. In Committee, the expert witnesses whom the Government invited to give evidence in support of the Bill saw no benefit in attending, and some even made it clear why there was no point: the Bill would make no difference.

The Bill will change little, but we will not oppose it today. We tried in Committee to make something of it, and it will now fall to the other place to attempt to give it purpose, but with prisons in crisis, probation in meltdown and access to justice under threat, it was always the wrong priority for a Government devoid of ideas. It exposes the Justice Secretary’s skewed priorities: he got his favourable media hit, and the rest is irrelevant. This treats the House with utter disrespect. Precious legislative time that could have gone on meaningful measures to change people’s lives for the better has been wasted. Nevertheless, he will receive one major accolade: his Bill will join that select club of the most useless pieces of legislation ever—not an honour of which to be proud.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed.

Bishops and Priests (Consecration and Ordination of Women) Measure

Monday 20th October 2014 Commons Chamber

[Relevant document: The 233rd Report from the Ecclesiastical Committee, Bishops and Priests (Consecration and Ordination of Women) Measure, HC 622.]

17:07

[The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Sir Tony Baldry)]

I beg to move,

That the Bishops and Priests (Consecration and Ordination of Women) Measure (HC 621), passed by the General Synod of the Church of England, be presented to Her Majesty for her Royal Assent in the form in which it was laid before Parliament.

It is now nearly a century since Parliament recognised that it should no longer be the body that initiated legislation concerning the running of the Church of England. However, Church legislation becomes part of the law of England, so it requires parliamentary approval and Royal Assent. A Measure such as the one before us has to have been passed by the General Synod of the Church of England. Most Measures require simple majorities in the Synod, but this one falls in that special category of particularly important instruments that need to have achieved at least two-thirds majorities in each of the Houses of Bishops, Clergy and Laity.

A Measure passed by General Synod then comes to Parliament to be considered by the Ecclesiastical Committee, a statutory Committee comprising 15 Members of each House, and if after consideration the Committee thinks it expedient to approve the Measure, it then has to be considered and approved separately by each House. The Measure was passed by General Synod in July and considered and approved by the Ecclesiastical Committee on the last day Parliament sat before the summer recess. The House of Lords considered and approved the Measure last week, on the first sitting day after the recess, and for it to proceed to Royal Assent, it now simply remains for this House to give its approval.

The purpose of the Measure is to enable the Church of England, for the first time, to open all three orders of ministry—deacons, priests and bishops—without reference to gender. The process was begun by legislation to enable women to become deacons in the 1980s and to become priests in the 1990s. That process will at last be completed by this legislation, which will enable women to become bishops—and indeed archbishops, as they are not separate orders of ministry in the Church of England.

Women priests now make up over a quarter of parish clergy and around half of priests in training. There are already 23 women archdeacons and six women deans. As a debate last year in Westminster Hall testified, over the past 20 years many women have given outstanding leadership to the Church of England and to our communities as vicars, archdeacons and cathedral deans. Now every type of post will be open to them. It is right to acknowledge the immense patience among many women in the Church who have waited for this day. We acknowledge, as we need to, the pain and hurt that there has often been as a consequence of the delay in arriving at where we are at today.

[Mr Frank Field (Birkenhead) (Lab)]

As well as recognising the consequences of delay, will the right hon. Gentleman sound a note of joy, in that the Church will now be able to choose from the other half of the population for its most senior positions, which, all things being equal, must strengthen our hand?

[Sir Tony Baldry]

I hope this whole debate will be joyful, because this is a very joyful day for the Church of England and society as a whole.

The conundrum has been: how to try to maintain the theological breadth and diversity of the Church of England while securing a solution that avoids any appearance of equivocation over the Church of England’s commitment to equality between men and women. Or, as I said in a speech to General Synod in 2010, shortly after I was appointed Second Church Estates Commissioner, the Church of England could have women bishops or not have women bishops, but one thing Parliament would not tolerate was any suggestion of second-class women bishops. As the House will recall, in November 2012, the earlier Measure failed at General Synod. That resulted in my having to answer an urgent question in the House, which indicated the depth and breadth of concern across the House. There was subsequently a half-day’s debate.

I think everyone in the Church of England felt chastened by the failure to reach agreement, and the Archbishop of Canterbury set in place a process of facilitated listening and discussions between all the various groups in the Church to seek a way forward. That process of facilitated listening and discussion led to a much simpler Measure, which is before the House today.

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

I am not a believer, as I have said on previous occasions. This Measure requires parliamentary approval, and we are all Members of Parliament, but is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, having voted 20 or so years ago for women to become priests, it was very difficult—certainly for me, as well as many others in the House, I am sure—to understand why there should be a glass ceiling? I am pleased that the decision has been reached to have no second-class category in the Church of England as far as women are concerned.

[Sir Tony Baldry]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for those comments, and I hope that view is shared by everyone and all Members of the House.

[Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)]

Will my right hon. Friend note that the enthusiasm for tonight’s decision is shared in the non-conformist Churches, many of which, like the Methodist Church and the United Reformed Church, are accustomed to having women as their leaders, as moderator or president?

[Sir Tony Baldry]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for making the point—it was made in the other place and I will comment on it later—that this is a measure that has been welcomed by many other faith groups as well. I am also grateful for his kind welcome for the Measure.

At General Synod, the Measure enjoyed overwhelming majorities at final approval in the three Houses of Synod, with 95% in the House of Bishops, 87% in the House of Clergy and 77% in the House of Laity—majorities that I suspect any party or combination of parties in this House would give their eye-teeth for. At the heart of the work and discussions on the new Measure was the ambition to do everything possible to maintain unity in the Church of England. This Measure, along with its accompanying instruments and documents, seeks to give expression to that hope of unity in various ways. It is acknowledged in the five guiding principles in the House of Bishops’ declaration that we live in a wider Christian world, where this development—having women bishops—is not accepted by everyone, and we have committed ourselves to maintain a place, without limited time, for those who are of the traditional viewpoint. These commitments are important because they are at the core of what the Church of England is about and how it sees itself within our national life. In the House of Lords debate last week, the Archbishop of Canterbury observed:

“One of the most moving parts of this process has been listening to those who have been willing to go along with something that they feel passionately and deeply is not the right thing for the church to do…I say again that the Church of England is deeply committed to the flourishing of all those who are part of its life in the grace of God. It is not our intention that any particular group should wither on the vine.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 14 October 2014; Vol. 756, c. 187.]

Indeed, I think we would all hope that every part of the Church of England can now flourish and thrive.

In the same debate last week, the House of Lords was particularly moved by the speech of the noble Lord Cormack, who many will know was for many years a member of the Ecclesiastical Committee and who describes himself as a traditional Anglican. Lord Cormack said that he could

“say with all certainty that had I been present in York this year I would have approved of the Measure before us this evening. There has been a real attempt to understand the sincerely held peculiarities of those of us who call ourselves traditional Anglicans.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 14 October 2014; Vol. 756, c. 175.]

As the Archbishop of Canterbury observed a little while ago on “Newsnight”,

“the biggest change in the last 20 months has been the way we treat each other and the way we are learning to treat people we disagree with.”

This Measures thus comes before us this evening with the overwhelming endorsement of every diocese in England and the overwhelming endorsement of every part of General Synod following a process of listening and reconciliation.

[Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con)]

My right hon. Friend was kind enough to refer to the noble Lord Cormack. Would he accept that part of the reconciliation has been the generous approach adopted by those of us who would associate ourselves as being within the Catholic tradition, and will he welcome the observations made by Forward in Faith, which represents many of those parishes, and the generous approach by the Roman Catholic Church in England? Will he assure us all that this will in no way undermine the work on greater understanding and dialogue with our Catholic and Orthodox brethren, which is part of the wider scope of Christian understanding that we are seeking to achieve?

[Sir Tony Baldry]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. In fairness, the Measure has come about because throughout every part of the Church of England, and in tandem with other Churches—as evidenced by my right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) and others—generosity has been shown.

The declaration of the House of Bishops, which accompanies the Measure, sets out five principles of non-discrimination, acceptance of diversity and recognition of difference across the universal and Catholic Church, which is enormously important. When the Measure was considered last week in the House of Lords, it was notable that it attracted support from all quarters, irrespective of whether they were members of the Church of England. As the Labour peer Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall observed, she supported the Measure as

“a representative of the many, many people in this country who are not members of the Church of England, or indeed of any church, but who are none the less, in some curious way, deeply attached to the Church of England. We are people who have grown up in a world in which the ministry of the Church of England has been very important to the social and, indeed, the political fabric of this country.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 14 October 2014; Vol. 756, c. 177.]

Another Labour peer, Lord Griffiths of Burry Port observed—in a spirit similar to that expressed by my right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed—that

“as a member and former president of the Methodist Conference, I am determined that it should not simply be Anglican voices that give expression to their delight in this debate; Methodists across the land will rejoice at it.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 14 October 2014; Vol. 756, c. 171.]

In a short and very moving speech, Lord Berkeley of Knighton, a Cross Bencher, explained that he had been brought up in the Catholic Church, but that what really mattered was love:

“what is important is the degree of love… I enormously welcome women bishops…It is correct that we should also show great love to those who find this difficult.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 14 October 2014; Vol. 756, c. 181.]

If we pass the Measure today, it will enable the Church to proceed to finalise matters at the General Synod next month. That potentially means that from 17 November, each diocesan bishop vacancy considered by the Crown Nominations Commission and each suffragan bishop vacancy considered by the relevant diocesan bishop will be open to women as to men.

One consequence of the Measure is that it will be possible for women to become Lords Spiritual and to sit in the House of Lords. At present, diocesan bishops are appointed to the House of Lords on the basis of seniority, so getting women bishops into the House of Lords could take some time if the normal system of seniority were simply left to take its course. However, I am glad to be able to report to the House that there has been consultation with all the main parties on the possibility of introducing a short, simple Government Bill to accelerate the arrival of the first woman bishop in the House of Lords, and I hope that such a Bill will be able to be taken through during this Session.

I am also glad to report that, in my experience, there has been solid cross-party support for such a Bill. It will have to be approved by Parliament because it goes to the question of who is summoned to attend Parliament. I should like to thank the First Secretary of State and Leader of the House of Commons and the noble Baroness Stowell, the Leader of the House of Lords, for their help and support with this matter. We all recognise the pressures on parliamentary time, particularly so late in the Parliament, but I very much hope that the Government will be able to find a legislative slot very shortly.

[Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

I want to put in an early bid. The Bishop of Hull is leaving his post and moving on, and, as Hull is a pioneering city—remember William Wilberforce and Amy Johnson—I believe that the bishopric of Hull would be an ideal starting place for the first woman bishop in the House of Lords.

[Sir Tony Baldry]

I will make sure that the Crown Nominations Commission takes on board the hon. Lady’s bid. I suspect that there might be some competition from around the country, however. The Bishop of Oxford is retiring shortly. There are many excellent women in senior posts in the Church, and I have absolutely no doubt that the first women bishops—and, indeed, all those women who are made bishops—will be excellent candidates. This measure is long overdue. The ability of the Church of England to consecrate women bishops is long overdue. The arrival of women bishops in the House of Lords is long overdue. I commend the Measure to the House.

17:21

[Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab)]

It is my very great pleasure, on behalf of Her Majesty’s Opposition, to support the Measure to enable the Church of England to consecrate women as bishops. I congratulate all those who have brought us to this place: the Synod, which voted for the change; Archbishop Justin and his staff, who reinvigorated the process; the women in the Church who have ministered and campaigned for change; and those who did not wish to see women consecrated but who have accepted the overriding need for reconciliation.

To some of us, this decision seemed a long time coming. When we are waiting for something and uncertain of the outcome, it feels like an eternity, but when it is done, it feels as though it happened in the twinkling of an eye. I am not sure whether the story began in 1976 when the Movement for the Ordination of Women was set up, or in the 1550s with the Elizabethan settlement for the Church of England. Perhaps it began with those women we read about in the New Testament: Phoebe, the deacon; Priscilla, the teacher; and Lydia, whose house became a home for the Church. Perhaps it began with the Genesis story, which is open to different interpretations.

My mother once stood up in church to give the address, only to be blessed by a priest who prayed to God that women be forgiven, as sin was brought into the world by a woman. I am never quite sure where prejudice ends and firm conviction begins. I prefer to focus on these words:

“So God created humankind in his image, in the image of God he created them, male and female he created them…God saw everything that he had made and indeed it was very good.”

The right hon. Member for Banbury (Sir Tony Baldry), who has fulfilled his role as Second Church Estates Commissioner excellently and whom we will all miss when he leaves the House in May, has laid out with admirable clarity the contents of the Measure. I will not repeat all that he has said, although I do have some questions. Obviously, it is not for Parliament or politicians, or even the Government, to lay down the theological grounding of any faith or religion in this country. We understand that. However, as the established Church, the Church of England has certain privileges and certain responsibilities. Uniquely, it ministers throughout the country; uniquely, it is guaranteed places in this Parliament. In that context, the Opposition believe that it is right for the canons of the Church to reflect the views and values of the vast majority of members of the Church and of wider society in upholding gender equality. I am delighted that the Synod made the decision that it made in July. I believe that by doing so it avoided what might have been a substantial crunch in the next Parliament.

Let me now deal with the details of the Measure. Clause 2 makes it clear that bishops are not public office holders under the Equality Act 2010. It is a necessary provision, enabling the Church to provide for those who, as a result of theological conviction, do not wish to receive episcopal oversight from a woman.

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

The hon. Lady says that the clause is necessary, but I do not think that it is necessary at all. It is the one element of the Measure that I think is unfortunate: I think it unfortunate that, at a time when we are advancing equality, we have to amend the Equality Act to carve out a chunk of the Church of England.

[Helen Goodman]

I am, of course, sympathetic to my hon. Friend’s perspective on this issue, but I think that had the clause not been included, it is extremely unlikely that we would be in this place today. I think it extremely unlikely that the Synod would have agreed to the package.

[Mr Frank Field]

While the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) is valid, is it not a great truth that out there in the real world no one will understand that difference? When the Measure is passed and women are consecrated bishops, people will see women as bishops, and the small type on the face of the record, which might excite some people who think that it is a terrible injustice, will be lost once the first women are consecrated.

[Helen Goodman]

I hope very much that what my right hon. Friend says is correct, but I think that some questions arise about the way in which the Church is intending to handle the situation. I hope that the Second Church Estates Commissioner will be able to answer those questions, some of which were also raised during the discussion in the Ecclesiastical Committee in July.

First, will parochial church councils be obliged to inform all members of the Church who are on the electoral roll in a parish that discussions are about to take place regarding resolutions to restrict the ministry of women, so that hole-in-corner decisions are not made? Secondly, can a parish request oversight from a non-discriminating bishop? The rules allow parishes to request a discriminating bishop. Can they also request a non-discriminating bishop, and can such parishes apply to the new independent reviewer? Thirdly, will the new conservative evangelical headship bishop minister beyond the parishes that specifically request his ministry? Fourthly, will the Second Church Estates Commissioner confirm that clause 2 will not validate any further discriminatory practices?

There is a fifth, and very important, question, which relates not to the Church but to the Government. I am not sure whether the Minister or the Second Church Estates Commissioner will answer it. As the Second Church Estates Commissioner said, bishops are currently appointed to the other place on the basis of seniority. I understand that to change that we shall need primary legislation, because otherwise the advent of women in the other place will come about at some far distant time, and none of us wants that. The Second Church Estates Commissioner said that the Government had not yet found time for that legislation, but why is that? The Clerks inform me that only eight Bills are before Parliament at the moment, whereas in a year we normally have 22 Bills going through the House, so there seems to be lots of time available.

[Sir Tony Baldry]

Clearly, I did not express myself with my usual clarity. The situation is more that the Government are in the process of finding this time. The hon. Lady and I have been here long enough to know what it means when at business questions the Leader of the House gives the impression that time might be found eventually, in the distant future. This is much more about when, not if, the Government find time within the legislation programme. That is very much the impression I have got from my discussions with the Leader of the House and his equivalent in the other place.

[Helen Goodman]

I am glad to hear that, because I am confident that such legislation would receive a fair wind from Members on both sides of the House, so it is not as though it will take up a huge amount of time; it is a purely practical thing.

[Mr Frank Field]

I promise not to intervene again. The business is going to collapse three and a half hours early tonight, so if the Government had been prepared, we could have dealt with that measure tonight.

[Helen Goodman]

My right hon. Friend is absolutely right about that. I had thought we were going to do the primary legislation when we came back in September, but it was not to be. I hope the Minister will give us a firm commitment on this tonight.

I urge all hon. Members to support the Measure for the consecration of women bishops. It has widespread support in the Church, in the House and in the country. I am proud to have been able to speak in this debate. The time of crying is past; the time of singing has come.

17:31

[Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)]

I do not wish to detain the House, but I join the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman) in praising my right hon. Friend the Second Church Estates Commissioner. I have served on the Ecclesiastical Committee for a short time and it is an honour to work alongside him. With great thought and care he undertakes his role and has expedited this Measure so well through the House over the past three months. I say a heartfelt thank you on behalf of all those who will not have the opportunity to speak in tonight’s debate.

I am proud to represent the diocese of Truro—indeed, the cathedral is in my constituency—particularly as I was confirmed there and I have the great privilege of worshipping there regularly. I was delighted that in May the diocesan synod voted overwhelmingly in favour of the consecration of women bishops, and I want to share with the House the marvellous way in which that debate was conducted. The discussion was heartfelt but measured and considered. I echo the words of the Second Church Estates Commissioner about the great progress that has been made within the Church of England on the way in which people talk to and engage each other. During the debate many people were swayed by the citing of a number of female Cornish saints and the great contribution they made to the early development of Christianity. That was a timely reminder of the significant role that women have played in the Church over many centuries. There was a reflection on the great contribution that ordained women priests have made in the diocese of Truro in the past 20 years, and a recognition of the broad views held in the community for this very positive Measure.

[Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con)]

My hon. Friend has made a number of good points and she is right in all she says about the work of the Second Church Estates Commissioner. Does she agree that there is a fantastic opportunity for a woman to become a bishop very soon in my constituency, as our current bishop, Bishop Michael, retires in only a month’s time, after 10 years’ outstanding service? Does she agree that that great opportunity should not be missed?

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. We have seven speakers to come. I hope that it will work out that they have about seven minutes each.

[Sarah Newton]

I thoroughly agree with that bid from my hon. Friend and I can think of an excellent candidate who is sitting with us this evening and whom all of us would thoroughly recommend to be one of the earliest adopted new bishops.

Passing this motion this evening is the right thing to do not only for all the reasons that have already been expressed but because it will help the Church of England reach out and continue in its vital mission of engaging with a whole new generation of people. That will only strengthen the Church so that it continues to contribute to the national life of people of Christian faith and people of none.

17:35

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

It was an extraordinary Synod of the English Church, taking place as it did on a site of two religious communities—one of men and the other of women—both of which were headed by a female abbess. I am talking not about last summer’s General Synod of the Church of England or even any English Church Synod over the past 1,000 years, but about the 7th century and Abbess Hilda of Whitby.

As we have this debate today, we have to reflect on the leadership of women—some ordained and some lay—in our parishes around England, Wales and other parts of the United Kingdom. Today also provides us with a moment to reflect on those who have served in ministries in many different capacities, but whose undoubted vocation was never recognised through the institutional structures of the Church. I think it was the French philosopher Pascal who once said that God made man in his own image, and man returned the compliment. That has been true in the ecclesiastical structures in this country.

You will know, Mr Deputy Speaker, that I am not English, and I am also not much of a sports watcher. But in the words of a 1990s football song, what we are seeing is the English Church coming home, and we are all the richer for it.

I think it was in 1989 when the first female bishops in the Anglican communion were consecrated in New Zealand. We have had a bit of a wait in this country. The Church in Wales decided to support women bishops last year. Interestingly, as we have the debate about alternative episcopal oversight, it is worth looking at the model that the Church in Wales has taken, which does not go down the flying bishop route. However, such an issue requires a much wider discussion.

I was really heartened by what our Second Church Estates Commissioner said on the subject of the Lords Spiritual and how the process is likely to be accelerated. My right hon. Friend the Member for Birkenhead (Mr Field) has made the point many times that if the change does not come down the route of the Church, then it is only right that it comes down a different route, and I hope that that will happen.

The one thing that separates the Church of England from the Church in Wales is the fact that the Church of England is an established church. Most of us laboured under the misapprehension that the Church in Wales was disestablished, but when we had the debate on equal marriage we discovered that what we thought had happened in 1920 had not really happened. Perhaps we can finish off the job before it reaches its centenary.

As long as we have people who are not elected in the second Chamber, I can accept that representatives of the established church should probably be there, but what I cannot accept is an all-male Bench of bishops. I am heartened by what has been said this evening, and I very much hope it happens. Let us see today as that great moment of celebration—of women celebrating their vocation and making our lives all the richer for it.

17:38

[Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con)]

May I briefly say that in my 39 years in Parliament I have shared in part the pain of many good women who could have made the Church even better if they had been able to be ordained as priests and not just as deacons, and if they had been ordained as bishops long before the present time? Too often we have walked in sympathy with the parishes and the people who have found that difficult, and I deeply regret that the whole matter has been so one-sided. If Graham Leonard were here now, I would quote back to him what he said to me: that he was not in favour of the ordination of women as priests because he thought it had not happened before. He was in favour of the ordination of women as deacons because it had happened before. That is the historical negative. If Jesus brought anything into our world, it is justice and righteousness. We should have picked that up, and should have forced this change through far earlier.

The Archbishop of Canterbury has given great leadership, and many others have co-operated; I am glad of that. If, as the archbishop said in another place, the bishops are a focus of unity, I ask all bishops, whether flying bishops or not, to ask every parish that went for resolution A and B to reconsider. In my constituency, there is a parish that, sadly, is to close. When people asked me whether I would campaign to help it remain a parish, I said, “You do realise that the first time I saw your church, it had a sign outside saying, ‘Be reassured: no woman will offer you Communion here’?” A parishioner said that she did not know that, but people should ask, and if for some reason, 20 years ago, that is what the parish went for, parishioners should ask it to review that decision, whatever the pain or difficulty, to revise it, and to come to the unity that the Archbishop of Canterbury has asked for.

Tribute was rightly paid in the other place to Women and the Church, or WATCH, with which I am associated. I was outside Church House when the ordination of women as priests was agreed. Some of those singing most heartily were Roman Catholic nuns, who said, “For us, it is a matter of when, rather than whether.” We are obviously way behind the Methodists, but we ought to get on, and try to help our brethren and sisters in the Roman Catholic Church to have the same kind of opportunities as us.

[Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con)]

The Church is well behind the Baptists, too, if I may say so. I joined the Church of England a long time ago, but these days, as a Baptist, I wonder what all the fuss is about, and I share my hon. Friend’s resolve. Does he agree that there is scope in religion for people to tolerate genuine differences and to go their own way in peace?

[Sir Peter Bottomley]

I agree with that; it is one of the reasons why people are concerned that excluding the Church of England from the Equality Act 2010 may make it possible for the Church to go in for more discrimination on the grounds of sexuality or with regard to the remarriage of divorced people. That works both ways.

I want to end this speech, which is briefer than I wanted, with the words of a woman who wrote to me: “We love the Church of England, and want it to be the best it can.” With this Measure, it can be better.

17:42

[Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab)]

Anybody looking in on this debate from outside would be rather surprised at how low key and sober it has been, given the momentousness of what we are debating and hopefully approving. I suspect that it is because most people will be rather surprised that this was not done some time ago. They probably thought it had been. Still, that should not detract from the importance and the historic nature of this evening’s debate, or of the approval for this Measure.

I hope that the right hon. Member for Banbury (Sir Tony Baldry), who speaks on behalf of the Church of England, will answer the technical questions raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman), and by Lady Howe in the other place. However, I do not want to spend my few minutes focusing on technicalities. There have been few moments in the House of Commons that have given me this much pleasure. I joined the Movement for the Ordination of Women as a teenager; some may think that rather sad. Apologies to my Labour colleagues, but I joined the movement several years before I joined the Labour party.

We should pay tribute to all the campaigners over the years who spent a lot of their time getting us to where we are, and who took a lot of stick. I also pay tribute to the right hon. Member for Banbury, because—without sparing his blushes—he has been the most fantastic Second Church Estates Commissioner. He has shown leadership on the issue; after the previous Synod debate, which took us all by surprise and shocked the nation as well as the Church of England, he went back to the Synod, the bishops and the Archbishop of Canterbury and made it absolutely clear to them that Parliament would not put up with the situation.

We sometimes underestimate the role that we can play in this place, but the fact that we spoke with one voice, and such a strong voice, in response to that terrible vote two years ago in Synod really made a difference. I was involved in some of the meetings and discussions with the bishops and the archbishop. They were sobered by the vote, and were certainly unnerved by some of the discussions that we had in this place, saying, “If you can’t sort this out yourselves, we will sort it out for you through legislation. You had better watch the Church of England’s established status if you carry on like this.” That did concentrate minds, and it was largely to do with the right hon. Gentleman’s tireless work. I shall miss him in this place, not just because of the role he plays in the Church, but as one of the few sane Tory voices on Europe. I am sorry to lose that from the House as well.

I also pay tribute to the Archbishop of Canterbury. I always said that I thought that it would take somebody coming from his tradition within the Church of England to drag it into the modern age, and I am in danger of being proved right. He has shown real leadership and determination as well as organisational skills, and political skills with a small p, which are essential in that job to get anything done. The majority that was achieved in the Synod last time took my breath away given what had happened the time before.

The hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Neill), who is no longer in his place expressed some concern that what we are doing here tonight might damage our relationships with the Roman Catholic Church or the Orthodox Church. There are many in the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches who wish they were in the same position that we are now moving to in the Church of England. Pope Francis, bless him, had his own difficulties this week in Rome with his own bishops in his attempts to drag the Roman Catholic Church a little further into our century. I urge him to take comfort from the experience of the Church of England during the last two or three years: if at first you do not succeed, just try again. I am sure he will have more success next year in his final Synod. Perhaps they could look at our experience and take some comfort from it.

I also want to thank all colleagues on both sides of the House who have worked very hard on the issue and have made sure that Parliament’s voice has been heard. In particular, I refer to those tireless campaigners, such as Margaret Webster, the widow of the former Dean of Norwich, who, when I was a teenager and she was one of the founding members of the Movement for the Ordination of Women, nobbled me to join that organisation. It was really my first experience of political activism. I do not know how many other Members’ first experience of political activism was on such an issue, but it taught me about the importance of perseverance, of campaigning, of not giving up, and of making and winning the arguments. Heavens, it has taken us a long time, but it gives me fantastic delight and pleasure that we are getting here tonight. There will be a lot of people out there in the country, not just women themselves, but millions of ordinary Anglicans, who will be celebrating this evening.

17:47

[Maria Miller (Basingstoke) (Con)]

I very much welcome the Measure before the House. I have had more than my fair share of difficult conversations with the Church of England during recent months, but I have always found that it listens closely, and when it comes to women bishops, it has acted swiftly. I certainly pay tribute to the Second Church Estates Commissioner, my right hon. Member for Banbury (Sir Tony Baldry), for his work in bringing this about. I also echo the comments of the right hon. Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw) in support of the Archbishop of Canterbury, who has shown tremendous leadership.

Perhaps it is the extraordinary simplicity of the Measure that has made it succeed where others have not. Many of us will remember sitting in this Chamber back in November 2012 with feelings of anger and disappointment at what had happened. It is very good news indeed and a moment for celebration that, as a result of today, women bishops can be appointed. That is very much a point of celebration. In too many areas women are still under-represented in British society. In the Church of England, the stained glass ceiling, as the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson) has termed it, was enshrined in law. Today we have the opportunity to ensure that that is no longer the case.

My hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth (Sarah Newton) noted the contribution of women in our communities through the Church, and my community is the same as hers. We are much the richer for the work of people such as the Rev. Cannon Jo Stoker in St Michael’s church, and in my parish, in Mapledurwell, the Rev. Jane Leese, who does an incredible job in leading our community.

I will end my remarks with two simple points. First, during the discussions in the summer, the Archbishop of Canterbury made the important point that women bishops, and, indeed, women in the Church of England, would now be on an equal footing with men, and that in no sense would that not be the case.

[Mrs Caroline Spelman (Meriden) (Con)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the most important thing about that statement of equality is that other young women contemplating coming into the Church will be looking closely to see that that equality goes the whole way through to representation in the Lords?

[Maria Miller]

My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. If we are to get the brightest and best wanting to go into the Church, that has to be the case. We have to respect all views, of course, but it is important that we send a clear message, today and in future, that women will have that equal status and equal footing in the Church.

Secondly, perhaps the Church can look at this place and take away some positive and not so positive messages. We are still working very hard to get more women in Parliament and public life. Despite very good measures introduced by both the Labour and Conservative parties to encourage more women, only by having the pathway of encouragement can we get women to achieve their potential at all levels. I gently encourage the Church to consider what pathways it will put in place. It is very encouraging to hear about the work being done with regard to the Lords Spiritual, but one swallow does not make a summer. We must ensure that it is more than simply one or two individuals who go forward and that women in the Church are supported to achieve their potential at every level.

17:51

[Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

I have just been reading that it was in 1988 that the first female bishops were elected in the US and New Zealand—the Right Rev. Barbara Harris and the Right Rev. Penny Jamieson. I am very pleased that we are about to agree to this Measure, hopefully unanimously. I feel far happier now than I did when I rose to speak on 21 November 2012, when for the first time the Church of England was called to the Chamber to answer an urgent question in response to the vote in the General Synod that had taken so many right hon. and hon. Members aback.

I want to make a few short comments. First, I want to pay tribute to all the women and men who over many years have campaigned on this issue: to bring the full extent of women’s ministry into the Church of England so that they can rightly take their places as deacons, priests and now bishops, and hopefully as archbishops. When I went to university—many years ago now—I had the great privilege of being a student at St Benet’s chaplaincy at Queen Mary university, which was where the Movement for the Ordination of Women had its headquarters. In fact, the chaplain got into a lot of trouble by allowing a communion to take place with a women priest, and unfortunately had to leave the Church and go elsewhere as a result. I was very struck then, as a young student, by the inequity of these very good women being denied the opportunity to become priests in the Church of England. When the ordination of women as priests took place over 20 years ago, I naively thought that we were all reconciled to the fact that women would now go on to become bishops, so it was a great shock when the vote went against us two years ago.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

As a fellow Yorkshire MP, my hon. Friend will know that last Friday we were privileged to have two new bishops made in York Minster—the Archbishop of York presided and the sermon was given by the Archbishop of Canterbury. That was the day we got a Bishop for Huddersfield, so it was very historic. Is she, like me, looking forward to getting a woman bishop in the Church of England soon?

[Diana Johnson]

I do not think my hon. Friend was in his place earlier when I made a bid for the position of Bishop of Hull—the current one is moving on to a new role—to be considered for one of the first woman bishops. However, there is a queue, because this has already been raised in Oxford and other parts of England.

We should particularly recognise the contribution made by Women and the Church, or WATCH, whose members, including Sally Barnes and Hilary Cotton, have campaigned on these issues for many years. Because of their perseverance—they have kept on going and kept on arguing—we are finally having this debate today.

I want to hear what the right hon. Member for Banbury (Sir Tony Baldry) has to say about the technical questions asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman). Like my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), I am very concerned about clause 2 and would prefer it not to be there. We are talking about the established Church of England, and it is very wrong that we are allowing it through legislation to opt out of the Equality Act 2010.

Will the right hon. Member for Banbury also comment on whether any time limit should be considered regarding the special provision to deal with people who struggle with this issue? Surely we must get to a point where it is clear that the Church has made a decision, and perhaps after a certain length of time that provision should be set aside.

I am delighted that we are finally here today—it has taken a very, very long time. I hope that Ministers will be able to give some indication of when legislation will be brought before this House so that matters can be expedited to ensure that we have a woman bishop in the House of Lords as soon as possible.

17:55

[Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab)]

Two themes have emerged in this debate. First, we pay tribute to the right hon. Member for Banbury (Sir Tony Baldry) for bringing this Measure forward and really pressing the issue via all aspects of Parliament; and, secondly, we all feel a lot happier than we did when we last discussed the matter in December 2012. It gives me great pleasure to see this debate taking place.

This is a historic moment that we should note, because it gives the Church a real chance to look more like the society that it seeks to serve. A Church with women in office at the highest levels of authority will better reflect British society today. As the right hon. Member for Basingstoke (Maria Miller) said, we want women to contribute at all levels and across all fields, and we think that society at large is better for it. That relates to the Church as well. In the debate in 2012, we were all hoping that the Church would expedite matters in seeking to revisit its decision, and we should pay tribute to it for doing so. I am particularly pleased that the Church itself has come to the decision to have women bishops.

This is a particularly important matter for my constituency because we have a strong Anglican communion around Durham cathedral, with lots of very strong women who have campaigned for this Measure over the years. I thank them for the fantastic work they have done on this, and for not giving up but carrying on and keeping the issue alive, which was often not very easy for them. We have a training college, Cranmer hall, attached to St John’s college, that trains priests. The young women training to be priests there are very pleased that this issue is now being resolved, because they did not want to feel that they were going into a vocation where they were treated like second-class citizens, and now they know they can go on to the very highest levels in the Church. On Saturday morning, I spoke to a young woman vicar in my constituency, Miranda Holmes, who told me just how much this Measure means to her and to other women in the Church. She asked whether I was going to come to this debate and I said that I would because I really support this Measure.

Like hon. Members on both sides of the House, I think that some issues remain to be resolved and assurances need to be given on them. The bishops’ declaration allows for parishes to request a male bishop, but there seems to be no comparable provision for non-discriminating parishes finding themselves under a bishop who declines to ordain women priests who request a woman or, indeed, a male bishop who is supportive of women.

Fast-tracking is also an issue. As I am sure hon. Members are aware, women could not be ordained priests before 1994, so the length of their priestly service has historically been restricted. As such, there is an urgent and important need for selection criteria to reflect the full range of women’s experience. Finally, I agree with colleagues that we will need to push for a change to clause 2, which declares that the office of bishop is “not a public office”.

Unlike other hon. Members, I am not going to make an immediate bid for a woman bishop in Durham, because we have been through considerable change over the past few years and probably need a period of stability. In future, however, I am sure we would really welcome a woman bishop in Durham.

18:01

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

God, this has been a long time coming, hasn’t it? Sometimes, hymns suddenly seem relevant. A couple of weeks ago I sang the hymn “God is working his purpose out as year succeeds to year”, but in this case it seems to have been “decade succeeds to decade” or even “century succeeds to century”. Finally, however, God is working her purpose out.

I, too, pay tribute to the Second Church Estates Commissioner, the right hon. Member for Banbury (Sir Tony Baldry), who has done a fabulous job. He has led on our behalf and I think he has done so admirably, as has the Archbishop of Canterbury. Given that Rochester is in the news at the moment—we are all taking a keen interest in it—I think we should also pay tribute to the Bishop of Rochester, who has played a really important role in driving forward the process.

But so many bruised hearts there have been. The former Bishop of London, Graham Leonard, has been mentioned. He once said that a woman was no more ordainable than a potato, yet he managed to rise to one of the highest offices in the Church—undoubtedly because of his tact, diplomacy and care for others. Seriously, though, we need to remember the bruised hearts of so many people.

I think I am the only Member of the House who has had a bishop lay hands on them to ordain them. When I went to theological college in Cuddesdon in the 1980s, it was the first year that more than one woman was in training there. The women could no longer be treated as honorary chaps, but the vitriol to which they were regularly subjected—I have to say that it was nearly always by gay men—was beyond the pale of Christianity.

[Mr Bradshaw]

They were in the closet.

[Chris Bryant]

Those gay men were all in the closet. The situation caused those women pain and many of them cried themselves to sleep on many nights during their ordination period. They believed that some people believed that they had no vocation and those people were prepared to use every means in the book to ram that home.

It is particularly ironic that, as one gay man walked in to be ordained bishop, he wore a mitre with the first word of the first Latin hymn on it—“Gloria”—because that had been his nickname at theological college, but he was not prepared to support the ordination of women priests or women bishops. That really rankled with me, because the battle for decency and the rights of all within the Church is a seamless garment—it does not distinguish between the rights of gay men and those of women in the Church.

So much time in so many ministries has been wasted when we could have had wonderful women ministers working in our churches. Did Teresa of Avila have no spiritual insight? Did Josephine Butler have no leadership or political acumen in the 19th century? Did Julian of Norwich have no felicity with language or theology? Of course these women had something phenomenal to offer, and it is extraordinary that people might think that those three aspects—spiritual insight, political leadership and theological insight, which are the foundation of the episcopacy—should not be recognised in women.

How bizarre it is that that should not be recognised in England. England had mitred abbesses sitting in Parliament in the 13th century. It of course had a succession of women monarchs, who were heads of the Church and who appointed bishops. For that matter, it has had a woman Prime Minister who also appointed bishops. It is a country in which women could be elected as a sexton or a church warden long before they could be elected to Parliament, yet we still thought that women could not be bishops. That flies in face of Galatians 3:28:

“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.”

I resigned my orders in 1996 to be able to stand for Parliament. For that matter, I resigned as a Parliamentary Private Secretary to Lord Falconer—Charlie Falconer—because I wanted to advance the cause of women bishops, but was told that that was part of his area of responsibility and that I therefore could not introduce such a Measure in the House. I pay tribute to all Members of the House who have taken part in the debate. It is almost inevitable that my hon. Friends the Members for City of Durham (Roberta Blackman-Woods) and for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman) should do so; they have a semi-episcopal role, given there are Prince Bishops of Durham.

Anyone who ever doubts the Church’s ability to change should remember Cardinal Martini, a very senior Roman Catholic cardinal, who when asked in 1999 whether his Church would ever have women priests, said, “Not this millennium.” I am certain that it will happen in the Roman Catholic Church, just as it has happened in the Anglican Church. I want to end—

[Sir Tony Cunningham (Workington) (Lab)]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Chris Bryant]

My hon. Friend has heard the word “end”, I suppose. Yes, of course I will.

[Sir Tony Cunningham]

I remember a Catholic priest telling me that he was opposed to Anglicans turning away from their Church to become Catholics because of women priests, saying, “I wonder where they’ll go when there are Catholic women priests.”

[Chris Bryant]

Indeed. I want to end with two quotes from Dame Julian of Norwich, a 14th-century anchoress who played a very important part in the establishment of the Anglican spiritual tradition. She wrote:

“Our Saviour is our true Mother in whom we are endlessly born”.

We should never forget the spiritual insight of the feminine aspect of God, which runs all the way through the Old Testament and the New Testament. Secondly, in words that she could have said in the debate today, she wrote:

“But for I am a woman should I therefore live that I should not tell you the goodness of God?”

Of course she had the right to do so then, and of course women have the right to be bishops in the Church of England.

18:09

[Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)]

This is a very short piece of legislation, but it has been a very long time in coming: 21 years on from the Priests (Ordination of Women) Measure 1993, the Church of England has finally come of age by admitting women for consecration as bishops. Those 21 years of delay have occasioned enormous pain—they have impaired the mission of the Church in the world by rejecting the leadership of half our population—and that is now to be put right. Given that this is without doubt the shortest speech I have ever made in this House, I suspect all my colleagues will find it doubly within their hearts to say, “Hallelujah”.

18:09

[Sir Tony Baldry]

With the leave of the House, I will respond to a number of the points that have been made.

I endorse some of the comments of the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), because one of the important things that has come out of this process for the Church of England is a much better way of disagreeing. The difficulty with Churches is that people have very set views about things. For a long time, all that happened was that people reflected sometimes rather entrenched positions. One of the early contributions of the Archbishop of Canterbury was to encourage a culture in which people could disagree better and then reconcile. I hope that that will be reflected in other areas.

A certain amount has been said about clause 2. I want to help the House on this issue, because I do not want there to be any misunderstandings. This evening, the House is considering a Measure to enable there to be women bishops. Within the context of providing for women bishops, the purpose of clause 2 is to enable the House of Bishops’ declaration and the five guiding principles to work without the risk of litigation.

There will be occasions when bishops—men as well as women—have to ask another bishop to exercise some of their functions in relation to a particular parish. However, if episcopal posts were public offices, as defined in the Equality Act 2010, appointing to them in the expectation that the person concerned would observe that self-denying ordinance would constitute discrimination in the terms in which the appointment was offered. We do not believe that episcopal offices currently fall within the definition of a public office. Interestingly, it came out in the House of Lords debate last week that membership of the House of Lords does not fall within the definition of a public office in the Equality Act either. However, it is unclear what view the courts would take if the matter were ever tested. Clause 2 therefore puts the matter beyond doubt.

The hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman) asked whether parochial church councils will be required to consult their congregations and wider parishes before they pass a resolution. The answer is absolutely yes. The arrangements by which PCCs will pass resolutions is set out in paragraphs 16 to 22 of the House of Bishops’ declaration. The importance of the decision is respected by the fact that at least four weeks’ notice has to be given of the time and place of the meeting, and of the motion to be considered. In addition, the motion will pass only if it achieves an absolute majority of all members of the PCC or a majority of those present at a meeting of at least two thirds of the members of the PCC who are entitled to attend.

On non-discriminating bishops, we must all recognise that in future every diocese will have a bishop who ordains women and who will be a champion for their ministry. There should be no part of England where it is not possible to have a bishop who ordains women. A headship evangelical bishop will be a bishop in the Church of England and a bishop in the Church of God, not just a bishop in a particular constituency, so he will be a bishop for the whole diocese.

The Bill to enable women to become Lords Spiritual will be introduced in due course and will be very short. We could probably have taken it through in the time that was available this evening. It will be a two-clause Bill. I will continue to do my best, through the usual channels, to ensure that we find time for it.

[Sir Peter Bottomley]

One question that has not been raised this evening, but was raised in the House of Lords, where the Archbishop of Canterbury’s answer was delphic, is whether the archbishops will consecrate other bishops when they are physically able to do so or whether they will opt out.

[Sir Tony Baldry]

The Archbishop’s answer was very clear; it was not delphic at all. I commend Lords Hansard to colleagues. He set out the circumstances very clearly. He made it clear that, in the normal course of events, archbishops will consecrate all bishops, but that there will be circumstances when an archbishop is ill or overseas. His point was that there is no great issue about that, and none intended.

In response to the right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr Field), I hope that in one, two or three years’ time, we will all wonder what the fuss was about. We will see women bishops in the Church of England in the same light as we now see women vicars, archdeacons and deans doing fantastic work as part of the normal course of ministry.

I thank all hon. Members who have said nice things about my role. It has been a privilege to serve as the Second Church Estates Commissioner, and to serve the Church and this House, and I commend the motion to the House.

Question put and agreed to.

Ordered,,

That the Bishops and Priests (Consecration and Ordination of Women) Measure (HC 621), passed by the General Synod of the Church of England, be presented to Her Majesty for her Royal Assent in the form in which it was laid before Parliament.

Business without Debate

Monday 20th October 2014 Commons Chamber

science and technology

Monday 20th October 2014 Commons Chamber

Ordered,

That Hywel Williams be discharged from the Science and Technology Committee.—(Geoffrey Clifton-Brown, on behalf of the Committee of Selection.)

West Cumberland Hospital

Monday 20th October 2014 Commons Chamber

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—(Mark Lancaster.)

18:16

[Sir Tony Cunningham (Workington) (Lab)]

West Cumberland hospital is used by thousands of my constituents who rely on the services it provides on a daily basis. The future of the hospital is an issue close to my heart and that of my hon. Friend the Member for Copeland (Mr Reed), whose constituency is next to mine. The hospital is based in his constituency, and with the prior agreement of the Minister, whom I thank, and of Mr Speaker, it is right for him to contribute to the debate.

Based in Whitehaven but relied on by people throughout west Cumbria, including tens of thousands of my constituents, the hospital is one of two sites that make up North Cumbria University Hospitals NHS Trust. The trust currently remains in special measures and in limbo over a delayed acquisition by Northumbria Healthcare NHS Foundation Trust. Reports by Sir Bruce Keogh, the Care Quality Commission and others have revealed serious problems with the trust, from a shortage of staff to governance and management issues. Through the hard work and commitment of clinical and non-clinical staff, improvements are being made—although slowly—and I add my personal and genuine thanks to all the staff who work so incredibly hard at West Cumberland hospital. However, the trust is still in special measures after more than a year.

I pay tribute to the fantastic work done by the We Need West Cumberland Hospital group to raise public awareness. It organised a meeting recently to discuss services at the hospital, which was held in a sports stadium because no indoor facility was big enough to cater for the 4,000 local residents from Allerdale and Copeland who turned up to show support for their hospital.

My hon. Friend and I have worked closely with the group and will continue to do so. Its work has clearly shown the strength of feeling throughout west Cumbria, and the willingness of our communities to engage with the decision-making process when it comes to services at our local hospital. The crux of the issue is that the unwillingness of the hospital trust to engage with communities and local people has meant that all trust has broken down. People want a say in what their local health services do and should look like, yet the door is being shut—slammed in their faces. Because of that lack of openness from the trust, feelings of distrust have grown.

My hon. Friend has repeatedly said that the issues highlighted by Sir Bruce Keogh and the Care Quality Commission must not be used as an excuse to strip services away from west Cumbria, and particularly West Cumberland hospital. However, when decisions are made behind closed doors, that is exactly what the community, my hon. Friend and I fear is happening. Representatives of the trust were present at the recent public meeting, but they did not reassure the local people who attended one iota. Engagement has increased recently, but it feels a bit like reluctant engagement. That cannot, and must not, continue.

The nearest other hospital is more than 40 miles away from the West Cumberland hospital. The Cumberland infirmary in Carlisle faces many of the same problems, but stripping services from the hospital in Whitehaven to relocate them to Carlisle is in my view, and in the view of my hon. Friend, a recipe for absolute disaster. Taking ambulances out of service to transport patients in need of care more than 40 miles, a journey that takes at least one hour, creates unnecessary and unacceptable risks to patients. Brand-new facilities are about to open in Whitehaven at the West Cumberland hospital which will provide our constituents with a first-class hospital. Surely hospital services should be delivered in the hospital that has been purpose-built to provide them. I will repeat that so that there is no misunderstanding: surely hospital services should be delivered in the hospital that has been purpose-built to provide them.

The high degree of uncertainty surrounding services has been fostered by the lack of engagement from the trust. There seems to be uncertainty about particular services, especially consultant-led maternity services. The atmosphere in which any engagement has been conducted to date has led local residents to believe that the trust is hiding its intentions. If the services at the West Cumberland hospital are not under threat, why has the trust not made that clear? The fact that it has not suggests that the services could indeed be under threat. We cannot, and must not, allow a situation to develop where the lives of mothers and their unborn children are put in danger in the back of an ambulance on the long journey to Carlisle. It is difficult to do a caesarean section in the back of an ambulance.

I understand that members of staff from the trust were not allowed to attend the recent public meeting. That is also totally unacceptable. The trust needs to promote meaningful engagement, rather than shutting down reasonable debate. It is clear that many medical professionals within the trust have concerns about the how the trust is acting. This must change. There is deep concern within the medical community, and their views must be heard.

There is a great strength of feeling within our communities. People who use these services on a day-to-day basis, people who rely on these services when they get ill and the people who will use these services in the future deserve a say in how these services are provided. There is a willingness to engage by the people of west Cumbria. People want to see their services improved and strengthened, and they want to be part of that process. The trust’s lack of engagement cannot continue. It must be willing to engage with all the people of west Cumbria, staff and local residents alike, and the Government must ensure that this happens.

I have two final points for consideration. We keep being told that one reason for change is to create specialisms. For example, if a patient in west Cumbria has heart problems—perhaps they need a triple heart bypass—they may well need to go to a specialist unit such as the one in Middlesbrough. I, and the community, understand that, but perhaps the Minister could tell me what specialism is being planned for the new refurbished West Cumberland hospital, because it needs one.

Finally, my hon. Friend and I are to hold a meeting of interested bodies soon, including some not in the process, such as the university of Central Lancashire and Allerdale borough council, whose leader Alan Smith spoke to me this morning. Will the Minister encourage the relevant bodies to attend such a meeting so that we can provide the hospital that the people of west Cumbria deserve?

18:23

[Mr Jamie Reed (Copeland) (Lab)]

I would like to thank your office, Madam Deputy Speaker, and the office of Mr Speaker, for the advice with which they have provided me in the lead-up to today’s debate. That a Member of Parliament could have been prevented from speaking on an issue that relates directly to his constituency and constituents owing to the decision of an individual Minister, is too absurd to contemplate. That would have made a mockery of our democratic process at a time when there is a growing dislocation between the public and Parliament. This Chamber exists precisely for the purpose of holding power to account and if any Minister in any Government believes they can be exempted from that then they are badly wrong. That said, I am exceptionally grateful to the Minister for granting me permission to speak. I would also like to extend my thanks to my hon. Friend the Member for Workington (Sir Tony Cunningham) for securing this debate and congratulate him on his richly deserved knighthood over 12 months ago now—this is the first chance I have had to do so in public.

My hon. Friend and I have campaigned consistently on behalf of West Cumberland hospital in a fight that will continue for as long as it is necessary. The Government must not try to shut down the debate, especially given that patients, the public and medical professionals across west Cumbria require clear and open discussion and genuine public engagement regarding the future of our hospital—the first new hospital built after the establishment of the national health service.

We need the support of the Government in ensuring that such engagement takes place. The Government’s health reforms, of which I am a long-standing critic, were billed as devolving decisions about local health services to the communities relying on them, but in Cumbria, which the previous Health Secretary said should be the template for the whole of the country—consider that for a minute—engagement could not be any worse. In my constituency and that of my hon. Friend, the Minister will find tens of thousands of people willing to engage with the Government—and with the trust, for that matter—on the future of their services, but their voices are being deliberately ignored.

Before I continue, I must declare my interest in this topic. I was born at West Cumberland hospital; my four children were born there; my wife was born there; and over the past few years, it has saved my life not once, but twice—which I appreciate sounds careless. I am indebted to its staff for all they have done for me and countless others from my part of the world. The hospital has been one of the main focuses of my efforts since I was elected to this place, and it will remain so for as long as I am here.

I do not wish to repeat what my hon. Friend said, but I want to echo my support for the We Need West Cumberland Hospital campaign group. These are local people exercised by what is happening to their national health service. They have created a group with passion and purpose, and it is time for decision makers to sit up and take notice of them—that means the Government as well as the trusts in question. The group exists only because the local health economy is in turmoil and because its members, like everyone else, are being purposely shut out of decisions relating to their hospital, as service decisions are made and increasingly removed by stealth.

As my hon. Friend pointed out, just a few weeks ago this group of concerned people organised a public meeting to discuss the future of services at West Cumberland hospital. About 4,000 people attended on a dark Monday evening at the recreation ground in Whitehaven. Had we held it on a summer weekend, only a few weeks earlier, more than 10,000 people—easily—would have attended.

My constituents are deeply concerned. The lack of engagement from the North Cumbria trust and other decision makers has fostered a feeling of toxic distrust. This simply is not conducive to establishing faith or trust, or to building the local services my constituents, the people of west Cumbria and the whole of the Cumbrian health economy need. I implore the Minister to intervene to stop this behaviour and ensure that an effective framework of meaningful public engagement is put in place before it is too late. I hope he can write to the North Cumbria trust to ensure this takes place.

Consultation is one thing, but meaningful engagement is another thing altogether. Rather than simply being consulted on a plan designed by the trust behind closed doors, it would be much more beneficial to have public involvement in what the plan should look like before it is consulted on. Surely that would make for a much easier, expedited consultation and a much easier, effective implementation. We did that locally prior to 2010 and we should do so again. I hope the Minister will address that point directly.

I want to address the concerns expressed about the services provided by West Cumberland hospital. The vacuum left by the lack of engagement from the trust means that local people are understandably worried about what their services will look like in the coming years, and the ability of the trust to engage with local people has been clearly and demonstrably worsened by the recent reorganisation of the NHS. However, the acquisition of North Cumbria by the Northumbria trust is also proving to be a significant problem. I hope the Minister will pay careful attention to this point. The acquisition cannot proceed unless both Monitor and the Care Quality Commission are satisfied that the trust is both financially and clinically sustainable.

The acquisition was meant to provide certainty and stability, yet years later the process has provided neither. In fact, the uncertainty is only worsening matters. There are justifiable fears that financial sustainability will be achieved by reducing, and only by reducing, the amount of services provided at the West Cumberland hospital, under the guise of “clinical sustainability”. Will the Minister agree today to stop any further progress of the acquisition of North Cumbria by Northumbria unless a comprehensive public consultation on the future of services provided by the West Cumberland hospital is undertaken prior to an acquisition? The people of west and north Cumbria need the Government’s help with that, which is the least the Government could do.

We have already seen some services move from the West Cumberland hospital to the Cumberland infirmary at Carlisle, itself a hospital in serious difficulty. People are worried that more services will follow and they are especially worried about consultant-led maternity services being transferred from West Cumberland to Carlisle.

[Sir Tony Cunningham]

The journey between West Cumberland and Carlisle is 40 miles, but some people have to go to Newcastle—for example, for chemotherapy. Just think of the anguish when children have to have chemotherapy as far away as Newcastle, which is almost 100 miles away.

[Mr Reed]

My hon. Friend makes an absolutely pivotal point. This is about not just the effectiveness and efficacy of the clinical solutions provided by the NHS; it is about the patient experience and the best outcomes for patients, and not just those 40 miles from Carlisle and further afield. The 40-mile point is Whitehaven, but it is actually much further south than that: it is Egremont, Cleator Moor, Seascale, Wasdale, Eskdale and so on. It is the people there who, perhaps more than others, are disadvantaged by these moves.

Childbirth is one of the biggest moments in any parent’s life, but the elation and happiness that surrounds a new family at this time can all too often turn to stress, worry and fear. Any complications can have a catastrophic effect—I have seen this recently with close friends. If there are complications during a labour, it is just not feasible for an expectant mother—particularly one in difficulty—to be transferred 40 miles from Whitehaven and further afield south, on a journey that, as my hon. Friend said, takes well over an hour at the best of times and considerably longer in heavy traffic. On occasion, the roads will become impassable in bad weather. In fact, only this year, after a visit to my constituency, a Minister wrote to one of his colleagues, a Minister in the Department for Transport, pointing out the inadequacy of the A595, bemoaning the state of the road infrastructure. If the roads are not good enough for visiting Ministers, they are certainly not good enough to be transporting patients at the time of their greatest need.

The truth is that a one-hour journey for a mother in labour means more than 90 minutes, bed to bed. That is indefensible. Also, studies have shown that an increase in straight-line ambulance journey distances is associated with an increased risk of death and that an increase of 10 km in straight-line distance is associated with an absolute increase of around 1% in mortality. Consider that for a moment. The centralisation of some services from the West Cumberland hospital in Whitehaven to Carlisle will increase the mortality risk for west Cumbrians much further afield than Whitehaven.

Between 2007 and 2008, the local primary care trust, as it then was, undertook a consultation on local services, to which it received 140,000 responses. As a result, the people of west Cumbria were told that they would receive a new hospital, built on the site of the West Cumberland hospital. The new hospital would retain services, including consultant-led maternity services, and also develop specialisms not catered for at Carlisle. The deal struck was also set to provide newly built cottage hospitals in Millom, Keswick and Maryport, to complement the existing new one built in my hon. Friend’s constituency in Workington.

When the Government took office in 2010, they scrapped the funding for the new hospital, as they did for all other existing new build hospital projects. It is only through perseverance, hard work and a lot of lobbying by me, my hon. Friend and others that the Prime Minister acquiesced and returned some of the money, for which we are very grateful indeed. However, the full funding was not returned and funds had to be found elsewhere. The Minister will know that to this day I am still consistently making the case—through the trust development authority, NHS England and other bodies—for extra funding. Now that the new hospital site is almost completed, it is only right that the other promises that were made are honoured.

Consultant-led maternity services cannot be removed from the West Cumberland hospital, and the Government must surely intervene to ensure that this does not happen. Before the election, the then Leader of the Opposition and now Prime Minister promised a “bare-knuckle fight” to stop maternity services moving, yet that fight has never appeared. Around the country, people wonder whether it will ever appear. However, can the Minister confirm that there is set to be a nationwide maternity services review? Will he explain when that will begin and end?

I believe that the local CCG in Cumbria wants to commission the consultant-led maternity services at the West Cumberland hospital, but that the North Cumbria trust does not wish to do so. I have submitted a series of freedom of information requests to the trust, seeking its internal proposals for removing consultant-led services; to date, I have received no response. Can the Minister help in that regard? Can he impress on the trust the urgency of the matter and the need for full candour? I hope he will be able to do so in writing.

Report after report by Sir Bruce Keogh and by the Care Quality Commission has shown that there are real issues, as my hon. Friend said, that need to be addressed not only in north Cumbria, but right across the Cumbrian health economy. Staff shortages are having a major impact on the services—not just the type but the quality—that can be delivered. Will the Minister commit himself today to investigate the recruitment practices of the North Cumbria trust? Will he commit himself to assist with recruitment, with financial incentives for potential new staff? This is critical. I am inundated with complaints from staff about the poor quality of recruitment advertising, cancelled interviews for applicants and much more. As a result, we have one of the highest locum spends in the whole country. The Minister will be only too aware of the effect on the trust’s ability to provide, in some cases, even the most basic front-line services.

In the people of west Cumbria, this Government—any Government—the trust and the regulators will find a willing partner for constructive discussions about what services should and could look like. They have been through these issues year after year; they are well versed in them and up to speed with the realities of modern clinical practice—and commissioning decision making, too.

More than that, however, with the brand new hospital being built, we should be able to develop a new model of health care for health economies such as Cumbria’s that is exciting, attractive and sustainable. We should be able to attract top-class medical professionals to our hospitals, and we should be able to support them. As Bruce Keogh points out, there is excellence at the North Cumbria trust. These issues are genuinely—we can say this without exaggeration—matters of life and death.

I have asked the Minister a series of questions. There will doubtless be many more, and if he cannot answer them today—I again express my gratitude for being allowed to speak in this debate—I hope he will answer them in writing. In addition, I hope he will agree to meet a delegation of hospital campaigners—from my constituency and that of my hon. Friend—in the Department of Health as soon as possible. Most of all, I hope he will listen to the clear voice of the people of west Cumbria. We need the West Cumberland hospital and the services it provides, and we will fight to the finish to secure the hospital services we deserve and the hospital we were promised. Future generations of west Cumbrians deserve nothing less.

18:37

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Dr Daniel Poulter)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Workington (Sir Tony Cunningham) on securing this evening’s debate, and I commend him for his interest in local health matters affecting his constituents, and for his clear advocacy of the needs of local patients.

We all understand that the configuration of local health services is an important issue for many Members—and for many of our constituents—particularly those who represent the more rural parts of the country such as Cumbria. We all agree that patients should receive high-quality care, regardless of where they live.

These are challenging times for the West Cumberland hospital. There have been difficult decisions to face up to, following the Keogh review, and the hospital has been put on special measures, following concerns about some aspects of patient care. I will say a little more later about that and about the importance of patient and public engagement in all decisions affecting the reconfiguration of local health care services.

First, I want to provide hon. Members with some reassurance about the future of local health services. It is important to note that for the first time in more than 50 years significant investment is being made under this Government in health care facilities in west Cumbria. The West Cumberland hospital is being redeveloped at a cost of £95 million, with this Government providing £70 million of that funding. The improved hospital will offer high-quality services and facilities fit for the 21st century, including significant local elective surgical services for the benefit of local patients.

The local doctors in the Cumbria clinical commissioning group are committed to keeping West Cumberland hospital clinically and financially viable, with the majority of Whitehaven patients continuing to access services, including A and E, at that hospital. I would also like to reassure the hon. Gentleman that it is the local doctors and nurses who run the clinical commissioning group—not me or anyone in Whitehall—who will make the decisions about health care in Whitehaven and Cumbria.

Before I move on to the specifics of the issues raised by the hon. Gentleman, it is worth noting the long-running issues at North Cumbria University Hospitals NHS Trust and the progress that has been made towards addressing them. Because of a history of high mortality rates—which means that more people were dying at the trust than should have been the case—the trust was placed into special measures in July 2013 as a result of Sir Bruce Keogh’s review. The trust is now working towards a merger with Northumbria Healthcare NHS Foundation Trust, which will further ensure that it can offer safe, high quality and sustainable patient services.

The trust has continued to work hard to tackle its long-running problems with recruitment of medical staff. It has recently implemented a nurse practitioner work force model to replace trainee doctors, who are currently not being placed at the trust due to long-standing difficulties in ensuring the necessary levels of senior medical training support. A recent positive development is that the trust has increased its consultant medical staff by 17%, as well as introducing a new nursing structure, which is helping to ensure safe nurse staffing levels on every ward.

[Sir Tony Cunningham]

Why does the Minister think there is such a shortage of doctors?

[Dr Poulter]

This has been a long-standing shortage; the trust has not been an attractive place for junior doctors to work for many years—probably for the past decade. However, the trust is now looking at ways in which it can better incentivise doctors to work there. That is an important step forward. If we want junior doctors to return to the trust—given that they have been removed from it because they were not getting the high-quality training they needed in order to become consultants—we must ensure that we incentivise the recruitment of more senior doctors to the trust. The hospital is now looking much more seriously at that than it has done in the past.

As I just outlined, recent measures have resulted in the consultant medical staff being increased by 17%, which is a positive step forward. Measures are also being put in place to ensure that nurse practitioners will be better used, where appropriate, to treat patients. The trust can be proud and pleased with the progress that it is making in that respect. An important aspect of looking after patients is to ensure that there is a full rota of junior doctors on site, and I am sure that if the progress in increasing the amount of consultant cover is maintained, that will become available again in the future.

On performance, the trust has put in place a recovery plan to meet waiting time targets from the end of 2014. It is currently working to reduce its backlog of patients who have been waiting for more than 18 weeks from referral to treatment, and it has received additional funding to support that. As hon. Members have pointed out, however, the trust has been financially challenged for some time. Last year, it reported a deficit of £27.1 million. The Department of Health provided significant financial support to the trust in 2013-14, as it has in previous years. The trust received £11.5 million from the Department, alongside support from the trust development authority and the clinical commissioning group, and £6.3 million in private finance initiative funding support. As we have discussed, however, that position is not sustainable in the long term. That is why further discussions about foundation trust status are being held.

Other critical challenges remain. Most significantly, some services at West Cumberland hospital remain fragile due to difficulties recruiting specialists and consultants and to the current heavy reliance on locums. However, I hope that that issue will be addressed in the near future if the trust can continue to recruit more consultants.

The Care Quality Commission inspection report published in July 2014 rated the safety of acute medical and outpatients services at the West Cumberland hospital “inadequate”. That reflects the difficulties that the hospital has faced for many years, and continues to face, in recruiting adequate staff to run some of its services safely and effectively. However, the trust has made significant progress in addressing the many challenges it faces. The CQC inspection acknowledged that, giving it an overall rating of “good” for providing a caring service to patients.

Another CQC inspection is expected to take place in early 2015, and I understand that the trust is working hard to make improvements ahead of that. For example, the outpatients service has greatly improved the availability of patient notes, an issue highlighted at the previous inspection. As I understand it, patients’ notes were not available when they came for an appointment. That is not helpful in providing an understanding of their previous history, which disadvantages the staff who are looking after the patient and trying to provide the best possible care. The trust has taken that issue on board and I understand that it is making good progress to address it.

The trust has made significant progress in other respects, most notably, and perhaps most importantly, in reducing high mortality rates. That means that patients in Cumbria who would have died had these changes not been introduced are alive today. Having been one of the highest in the country, the trust’s mortality rates are now within national confidence limits, and the trust and its staff must be commended for that turnaround. Further progress has also been made in, for instance, the meeting of the four-hour A and E standard, the implementation of a new patient experience programme, and a reduction in clostridium difficile infection rates. However, changes must continue to be made to secure a sustainable future, and to enable the trust to keep building on the good progress that it has made so far. It is important for the local NHS to be supported in that work to secure safe, high-quality patient care.

[Mr Reed]

Will the Minister explain why mortality rates increased sharply immediately after the summer of 2010?

[Dr Poulter]

I do not have the local knowledge that would enable me to understand why that happened, but what is important is the need for action to be taken in cases in which there is a history of higher than expected standardised mortality rates—cases in which patients have died when they should not have died. That is why the Government asked Sir Bruce Keogh to investigate this trust, and, indeed, many other trusts, as a result of which some were put into special measures.

Although a number of challenges remain, and the trust must address them, it appears to be making good progress in terms of standardised mortality rates, which means that—as I said earlier—patients who might have died in the past are now surviving. That is testimony to the hard work of the trust’s front-line staff. I know that Members will be pleased, and that, more importantly, local patients and their families will be very grateful.

The subject of reconfiguration was raised. The issues affecting west Cumbria were discussed during a debate secured in 2012 by the hon. Member for Copeland (Mr Reed), and I know that the future of services at the hospital is a matter of continuing concern to both him and the hon. Member for Workington. As I said earlier, the local NHS is committed to ensuring that West Cumberland hospital has a viable and successful future, and that west Cumbrian patients continue to receive treatment there. That is why £95 million—£70 million of it from the Government—is being made available to improve its facilities. The money will allow it to offer 21st-century facilities, including seven new operating theatres, four of which will have full laminar flow, which will make them suitable for use in any operation. That will allow the hospital to offer a wide range of surgical services, and to become a centre of excellence for elective surgical procedures.

The hon. Member for Workington asked what excellence would be provided at the hospital. I can tell him that the investment in new facilities will allow patients to receive elective surgical procedures of a much higher quality, which will hugely benefit the local population. That investment is supported by additional investment in other local health care facilities, including, not far away, the new £11 million Cockermouth community hospital—which was officially opened in August 2014—and the new health centre at Cleator Moor.

Alongside the financial investment in the hospital, there are continuing efforts to attract and recruit new clinicians to North Cumbria University Hospitals NHS Trust. International recruitment campaigns have already taken place, and financial incentives are now available to support recruitment to the posts that are the most difficult to fill. That point arose earlier in the debate. Hospitals often have the flexibility to offer incentives in the event of recruitment challenges and difficulties, and I am pleased that the local trust is taking advantage of the opportunity to offer such incentives to attract new consultants and permanent staff.

To build on the progress that is already being made, clinicians are working towards changes that offer the best opportunities for better outcomes to be given to patients suffering from the most serious illnesses. No changes will take place unless there is clear clinical evidence that they will result in better outcomes.

Understandably, people have concerns when any change to local health care services is being discussed, but it is important that such concerns are not exploited for any political or other purpose, and that all changes that take place are in the best interests of local patients. The five-year plan for the local health service being developed by local doctors and clinical commissioners is looking at how services can be delivered safely and sustainably in the future. In developing the plan, I expect the local NHS to give important consideration to the distance patients need to travel to access services, particularly emergency services. As we have discussed, rural areas are very different from urban areas, and the distance patients may have to travel to access services is an important factor in determining what is safe for patients. Local commissioners need to take note of that.

[Mr Reed]

The Minister represents a rural constituency. Notwithstanding his medical expertise and knowledge, would he be happy for constituents of his who were in labour and showing complications to have to travel for more than 90 minutes, bed to bed?

[Dr Poulter]

That actually may have to happen in my constituency, for example, in cases where my local hospital does not have the right support for a very premature baby in utero once it is born. Neonatal services are not always as well developed at every hospital, and some areas tend to have a regional centre of excellence for neonatal care. As the hon. Gentleman said, there may be a regional centre of excellence for cardiovascular services, heart surgery or other specialist services. We want to ensure that bread and butter, day-to-day medical services are always provided by local hospitals—that is particularly important in rural areas—but we have to ensure when taking these decisions that where there is a clinical case for better patient care to be delivered at a centre of excellence, that case is made and communicated effectively. So, for example, although I would want to ensure, as I have done, that in Suffolk patients are able to receive the best possible care from the local NHS, if they needed super-specialist services and other services that are better provided at a specialist centre, they receive that care from those centres. I have always advocated that important case on clinical grounds.

This is about seeking to provide high-quality day-to-day services, while recognising that some services have to be provided at specialist locations. So when dealing with the potential birth of a very premature baby, it is important that the right support after birth is available, and that is provided by more specialist neonatal intensive care units—for example, Brighton is a regional centre for the south of England for some of those services. It is also important that, where possible, an intrauterine transfer takes place to make sure that the right care is available upon birth and after delivery.

It is also important to stress that in designing and working through what the right patient services are, and in putting together the local five-year plan in Cumbria, certain guarantees and reassurances have been made to the local population. I spoke just now about important day-to-day medical services, and a commitment has been given that there will continue to be an accident and emergency department at West Cumberland hospital. That is part of what I was just speaking about: high-quality, immediate services available for patients in more rural and remote areas. An independent review is looking at maternity services across Cumbria and will feed into work locally to find the best possible solution to providing safe and sustainable maternity care in the future.

While the five-year plan outlines the direction of travel for the local health service, no definite proposals have yet been put forward, and work remains at an early stage. In developing its proposals, I expect the local NHS to ensure that patient safety is a key focus, and that any movement or change of services is based on clear clinical evidence of better outcomes for patients.

I wish to make some important points about public engagement, which was raised by both hon. Gentlemen. It is important that people who use NHS services get a say in any changes to those services. We are very clearly committed to that as a Government, and it is important that local clinical commissioning groups, and the doctors and nurses who run them, properly engage with the public when they are making the case for the future shape of local health care services. I encourage local patients to continue to engage with the NHS as plans for west Cumbria are developed.

I understand that Cumbria CCG has met local MPs and the local campaign group to discuss their concerns and is happy to maintain that dialogue and continue to meet to discuss issues of concern in the weeks and months ahead.

The local NHS held a period of engagement to inform the development of the five-year plan. Both the CCG and the trust are committed to undertaking more engagement and communication with local people in the coming months.

Any proposals put forward for significant changes to local health services will be subject to a full public consultation in which patient and public views can be fully engaged in helping to shape future health care services. That is an important reassurance to give Members. No decisions will be made without that full public consultation if and when any changes to services are proposed.

In conclusion, I know that local people care deeply about the future of West Cumberland hospital—that has come across clearly from the contributions this evening. The provision of health care services affects all members of the community. We have only to look at the example of 10-year-old Maddy Snell who last week received a reply from the Prime Minister to her letter about potential changes to local health care services to see how the whole community in west Cumbria wants to be involved in the future of its hospital.

Patients should keep up that engagement with the local NHS and make their opinions known to those developing proposals for the future of local health care services. I also want to encourage the people of Whitehaven to listen to the reasoning behind any proposals that their local doctors bring forward for improvements in the way in which people are cared for in the local area.

I should like to reiterate that local health services in west Cumbria have a strong future. There is a commitment from the local CCG, led by doctors and nurses, for a continuing accident and emergency service, and the Government support a £95 million investment in health care facilities at West Cumberland hospital.

[Mr Reed]

The Keogh report makes it very clear that meaningful engagement with the staff both at the Cumberland infirmary, Carlisle, and the West Cumberland hospital is nothing like it should be. That is one of the key reasons the trust entered special measures. All of us from all parts of the House want to see the hospital trust emerge from special measures as quickly as possible. However, latterly, that engagement internally has demonstrably worsened. How can we get out of special measures if these behaviours persist?

[Dr Poulter]

Part of the challenge may well be challenging some of the existing work practices at the hospital. I accept what the hon. Gentleman has said about the quality and commitment of local NHS staff. In my experience, I have never found a member of the NHS who has been engaged in health care with anything but the best intentions and the wish to help people. That is why I am a doctor and why many people go into health care; they want to provide compassionate care for people and to improve the human condition. I know that that is what drives local staff in Cumbria. Sometimes when profound issues have to be faced, such as higher than expected local mortality rates, challenging conversations have to take place. Such issues are the result of not a lack of commitment or dedication from the staff, but the fact that some working practices need to be improved. Additional training and support may need to be put in place to improve those working practices. It is important that that is done in a way that brings staff along in a collaborative working environment.

When things go wrong in health care, it is rare that there is one single causal factor, although sometimes there is; sometimes it is the negligent act of one person. Often, however, it is the system in a hospital that has let someone fall through the gaps. This is about challenging working practices, and as far as possible, that has to be done collaboratively. Clearly, there have been huge improvements in the way health care is delivered locally. Mortality rates have fallen, and patients are being looked after in the way we would all expect. That is down to the hard work of the staff who are facing up to some of the challenges, and making sure that they put right what may have been wrong.

It is important that when there are discussions about reconfiguring, changing or developing health care services, local clinical commissioners engage effectively with the hospital and properly with hospital staff. Part of the broader consultation and engagement exercise needs to be focused on proper engagement between the clinical commissioning group and the clinicians and other dedicated staff who work at the trust. From what hon. Members are saying, there may be more work to do in that area. I urge the clinical commissioning group to put right any issues, because it is important that everybody signs up to dealing with future challenges.

As I have said, I am confident in the local clinical commissioning group’s commitment to supporting a viable A and E at the hospital. The Government have provided investment to develop facilities further, particularly facilities for surgical procedures, in the hospital and the local area. With that investment, there is a strong future for local hospital services. It is important that local clinical commissioners continue to engage with staff at the trust, and particularly with local patients. After all, if we want a health service that is fit for purpose in Cumbria and elsewhere, it has to be based on the needs of local patients. It is to them, more than anybody else, that local commissioners need to listen.

Question put and agreed to.

19:02

House adjourned.