Rural Broadband

Chris Bryant Excerpts

Wednesday 13th November 2024 Westminster Hall

[The Minister for Data Protection and Telecoms (Chris Bryant)]

It is a delight to be here, Dame Siobhain, and I warmly congratulate the hon. Member for Glastonbury and Somerton (Sarah Dyke) on securing this debate. I am not sure I will be able to answer the questions of all the Members who have come to this debate in my speech.

Some Members have raised concerns at DSIT questions as well, and I note that one Member said that I was prepared to have an audience with people, which makes me sound like the Pope. I am not the pontifex maximus— I am not even the pontifex minimus—but my hon. Friend the Member for Buckingham and Bletchley (Callum Anderson), who is my Parliamentary Private Secretary, and I are happy to organise meetings with officials to go through the specific issues in individual constituencies. Some of the statistics that have been thrown out are different from the statistics I have, and it may be that mine are a little more up to date, because we have a whole Department to look up statistics for us. That offer is available to all hon. Members. I want to be as helpful a Minister as possible, because—

[Richard Foord (Honiton and Sidmouth) (LD)]

rose—

[Sir Ashley Fox]

rose—

[Chris Bryant]

Wait a second! Because I fully accept the fundamental point that was made right at the beginning by the hon. Member for Glastonbury and Somerton: broadband is essential to nearly every form of engagement in modern life—finding out where you are, finding out which is the nearest chemist that is still open, logging on to a Government website, the Government trying to do their business, or someone trying to set up a local business. All those things are absolutely vital.

Broadband is greedy. Every year, more and more speed and capacity is needed. That is why we need to make sure that we get to full gigabit capable broadband for every single set of premises as soon as we possibly can. That is not a difficult thing to achieve.

[Tessa Munt]

rose—

[Chris Bryant]

I will give way to the hon. Lady because her request to intervene is timely.

[Tessa Munt]

I thank the Minister greatly. I join my hon. Friend the Member for Winchester (Dr Chambers)—is the Minister actually the king of mobile signal as well? If he is, there is a cracking need to get on with making sure that areas like mine, like his, have got a decent mobile signal.

[Chris Bryant]

The hon. Lady is absolutely right. I am the Minister for Telecoms, and that includes—

[Dame Siobhain McDonagh (in the Chair)]

Does that include Portcullis House?

[Chris Bryant]

That is an interesting intervention from the Chair! I think that Portcullis House is a matter for the Speaker and the Administration Committee. But there is a serious point here: in many cases if we could get to 5G standalone universally, some of these issues would not apply, because we would be able to do lots of things. The police, for instance, could have fully streamed services available through their 5G, and broadband might not be so immediately significant.

I am painfully aware that this is an issue I raised as a Back-Bench MP and baby MP all the time. Sometimes Ofcom’s reporting does not match people’s lived experience. It will say, for instance, that somewhere has 98% coverage from all four operators on mobile, but when people get there they cannot get a signal for love nor money. Often that is because of the way Ofcom has been reporting, which relies on 2 megabits per second. But with 2 megabits per second people cannot do anything. That goes back to the original point made by the hon. Member for Glastonbury and Somerton—I will think of her as the hon. Member for Glastonbury Tor now, because it is shorter in my head.

[Luke Myer (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland) (Lab)]

The data issue that the Minister is raising is precisely what we have been experiencing. Looking at it on paper, from the maps, the villages have fantastic signal and broadband, but that is just not people’s experience. I am grateful to the Minister for meeting me recently to discuss this and for the roll-out we are going to see from the Government in East Cleveland.

[Chris Bryant]

I do not want Opposition Members to think that I have had an audience with a Labour Member and not with others. There is a universal service obligation on the Minister here. For most of the issues that have been raised, I think the most useful thing would be to book in a time for officials from Building Digital UK to go through both the mobile and broadband issues that relate to Members’ specific constituencies. We do have more precise maps, and we are able to talk all those issues through.

My hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland (Luke Myer) is right. One of the first things I did when I became the Minister with responsibility for telecoms was to write to Ofcom to say, “You have to review the way that you look at these issues of reporting.” I am glad to say that Ofcom replied recently, and I am happy to put a copy of that letter in the Library so that everybody can see the correspondence we have had. But it is a good point; apart from anything else, mobile operators would quite like to know where there is good coverage—and good coverage should mean coverage that is actually any use to anybody, rather than something that theoretically says 4G but does not feel like 4G at all.

[Richard Foord]

The Minister has kindly agreed to meet me and some Somerset colleagues later this month to discuss this issue. One thing I want to put on the agenda for that meeting is Connecting Devon and Somerset, which has cancelled three contracts previously and has just cancelled a fourth. I wonder if we have a special problem in Devon and Somerset.

[Chris Bryant]

That may be the case, and that is one of the specific things we can take up with BDUK.

I should explain the whole process first. Of course the Government do not want to have to pay for the roll-out of broadband across the whole of the UK. That would be an enormous big-ticket item. Nor, for that matter, do we want to pay for the roll-out of 5G. We are therefore trying to ensure that where commercial operators can do that roll-out, they are able to do so as cost-effectively as possible. Where it is not commercially viable, the Government will step in. That is what the whole BDUK programme is, both through Project Gigabit, which relates to broadband, and the shared rural network, which applies to mobile telephony. That is the plan.

The hon. Member for Glastonbury and Somerton mentioned very hard-to-reach places. The truth is that there will probably be 1% of places where it will be extremely difficult—for either a commercial operation or for the taxpayer—to take a fibre to every single property. That could be so prohibitively expensive for the taxpayer that we will have to look at alternative means. That goes to the point made by the hon. Member for Bridgwater (Sir Ashley Fox) that we will have to look at alternatives, and some of those may relate to satellite or wireless delivery of broadband.

[Mr Angus MacDonald (Inverness, Skye and West Ross-shire) (LD)]

Will the Minister give way?

[Chris Bryant]

Another new Member wants to make a contribution.

[Mr Angus MacDonald]

The £500 million set aside for the shared rural network was instigated by the previous Government. In the highlands of Scotland, it is organised by land mass, rather than the geographic concentration of people. If the Minister wants to find £300 million or £400 million of that to help with the roll-out of broadband, he can feel free, because it is very unpopular where we are and it is not serving the needs of the people.

[Chris Bryant]

I hope that I might be able to help the hon. Gentleman a little here. I know the highlands of Scotland very well: I spent many of my childhood summers in Aviemore, and I know the Cairngorms well. It seems to me illogical simply to put big masts in places of extreme natural beauty just for the sake of saying that we have covered geographical mass. It is much more important to have masts in places where there are actually people and a connection that will be used, so that is very much the direction of travel that I hope we can go in. I am not sure that it will save the amount of money that he talks about, because, for all the reasons raised by other hon. Members, people still need connectivity in lots of places that are fairly out of the way, but broadly speaking he makes a fair point. I cannot remember if he has written to me about this issue, but I know that several Scottish MPs have. If he writes to me, he will get the same response as the others, which broadly speaking is the point that I have just made. Incidentally, if Members want, they can go to thinkbroadband.com for the most up-to-date figures on broadband roll-out.

I mentioned the figures raised by the hon. Member for Glastonbury and Somerton. I think the figures in the south-west are that 97% of premises can now access superfast broadband and 77% can access gigabit-capable broadband. However, that is lower than in the rest of the UK, and our aspiration is to get to the same levels across the whole of the United Kingdom, although there are obviously geographical difficulties; I know that from the south Wales valleys, where this issue is also difficult. There is a difference between “have access to” and “have”. For instance, in many parts of the UK—not rural, but urban—gigabit-capable broadband has gone down the street, but not into the building, so there are sets of issues for urban areas. I know that the hon. Lady and others have written to me or asked me questions about how much of the BDUK budget is being spent on rural areas. It is more than 90%, but we need to address some urban issues as well. I am trying not to see this as urban versus rural, as there are different issues in different areas, and we need to address all of them. I have referred to areas that are very hard to reach, and we are looking at alternatives.

The hon. Member for Glastonbury and Somerton also raised the issue of the electronic communications code, and I rather agree with her that the process is cumbersome. There has obviously been a new electronic communications code, and I can confirm that we are looking at implementing the provisions under the Product Security and Telecommunications Infrastructure Act 2022 that have not yet been implemented in fairly short order. I hope that we can make further announcements about that fairly soon, and that should deal with some of the issues that the hon. Lady is concerned about. The truth of the matter is that broadband, mobile connectivity and connectivity in general are as important as water, electricity and any of the other services on which we have all come to rely, whether it is for the issues that the hon. Lady relates in particular about farms, to do with running the Government or to do with being a member of society.

One of the other areas in which we must do far more—it is a shame that less has been done over the last 12 years by the Government—is digital inclusion. We can map areas of digital deprivation in parts of the country, including in the south-west, and we need to tackle that. We need to have a whole-Government approach, part of which is about access, part of which is about skills and part of which is about tackling poverty. There is a whole series of different issues, but if we really want to take the whole country forward into a digital and prosperous future, we can do so only if we have included every single part of it. As I said, part of that is about connectivity and the affordability of connectivity. Part of it is about people understanding that they need the high speeds talked about by the hon. Member for Glastonbury and Somerton, and part of it is about having the skills and understanding to take those issues on.

I am very happy to give an audience to anyone who wants one; they should approach me as soon as possible, because we have quite a long list of people who do. However, I see this issue as an essential part of our delivering an economic future that we can all be proud of in this country.

Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 10(6)).

Draft Online Safety Act 2023 (Priority Offences) (Amendment) Regulations 2024

Chris Bryant Excerpts

Tuesday 5th November 2024 General Committees

[The Minister for Data Protection and Telecoms (Chris Bryant)]

I beg to move,

That the Committee has considered the draft Online Safety Act 2023 (Priority Offences) (Amendment) Regulations 2024.

As ever, Mr Dowd, it is a joy to see you in your seat and, as usual, in a very fine suit. The regulations we are discussing today were laid before the House on 12 September. In our manifesto, the Labour party stated that we would use every Government tool available to target perpetrators and address the root causes of abuse and violence, in order to achieve our landmark mission to halve violence against women and girls in a decade. I am sure the whole Committee would agree with that. Through this statutory instrument, we are broadening the responsibilities of online platforms and search services to tackle image abuse under the Online Safety Act 2023.

As I am sure all members of the Committee will know, the Online Safety Act received Royal Assent on 26 October 2023. It places strong new duties on online user-to-user platforms and on search engines and search services to protect their users from harm. As part of that, the Act gives service providers new illegal content duties. Under these duties, online platforms need to assess the risk that their services will allow users to encounter illegal content or be used for the commission or facilitation of so-called priority offences. They then need to take steps to mitigate any identified risks. These will include implementing safety-by-design measures to reduce risks, and content moderation systems to remove illegal content where it does appear. The Online Safety Act sets out a list of priority offences for the purposes of providers’ illegal content duties. These offences reflect the most serious and prevalent online illegal content and activity. The priority offences are set out in schedule 7 to the Act. Platforms will need to take additional steps to tackle these kinds of illegal activity under their illegal content duties.

Sections 66B, 66C and 66D of the Sexual Offences Act 2003, as amended by the Online Safety Act 2023, introduce a series of intimate image abuse offences. Today’s statutory instrument will add the offences to which I have just referred to the list of priority offences—the ones that the organisations must take action on. These offences include the sharing of manufactured or manipulated images, including deepfakes, and sharing images where the intent was to cause distress. This statutory instrument means that online platforms will be required to tackle more intimate image abuse. I hope that the Committee will support what we are doing here.

The new duties will come into force next spring, as the Act provides that Ofcom needs to be able to implement them within 18 months of Royal Assent. Ofcom will set out the specific steps that providers can take to fulfil their illegal content duties for intimate image abuse and other illegal content in codes of practice and guidance documentation. Ofcom is currently producing this documentation. The new duties will start to be enforced from spring next year, as soon as Ofcom has issued the codes of practice and they have come into force, because of the 18 months having passed. Providers will need to have done their risk assessment for illegal content by then. In other words, the work starts now.

We anticipate that Ofcom will recommend that providers should take action in a number of areas. These include content moderation, reporting and complaints procedures, and safety-by-design steps, such as testing their algorithm systems to see whether illegal content is being recommended to users. I am sure that all members of the Committee will be able to think of instances we have read about in the press that would be tackled by precisely this piece of legislation. I would say, because the shadow Minister will speak shortly, that we welcome the work of the previous Government on this. Where we can co-operate across the House to secure strong regulation that ensures that everybody is protected in this sphere, we will work together. I hope that is the tenor of the comments that the shadow Minister will make in a few moments.

Where companies are not removing and proactively stopping that vile material from appearing on their platforms, Ofcom has robust powers to take enforcement action against them, including the possibility of imposing fines of up to £18 million, or 10% of qualifying worldwide revenue—whichever is highest. Although this statutory instrument looks short, it is significant. We are broadening providers’ duties for intimate image abuse content. Service providers will need to take proactive steps to search for, remove and limit people’s exposure to that harmful illegal content, including where it has been manufactured or manipulated and is in effect a deepfake. I therefore commend these regulations to the Committee.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Bryant]

As I said, I welcome the hon. Gentleman. I hope he stays in his place—I do not mean that I hope he stays in the room for the rest of the day, though. It is good when people actually know something about the subject they are talking about in debates in the House, so it is good to have him still in his place. [Interruption.] I hope that is not a note from the Leader of the Opposition saying that he is no longer responsible for this area.

My speaking brief says: “I thank the members of the Committee for their valuable contributions to this debate”, but—well, anyway. The hon. Member made an important point about the protection of children. That is not precisely what this statutory instrument is about; it is about the requirements on platforms and search services to deal with intimate image abuse. That is the very specific thing we are tackling this afternoon. The pornography review is not what we are debating this afternoon either, but I am happy to write to him about that and hope to provide him with the assurances he seeks.

The hon. Member makes the most important point of all when he says that platforms do not have to wait until next March to take action in this field. I am sure that any parent or anybody else watching this part of society with even the slightest interest will know about the significant damage done to our whole social sphere in this area over the last few years. Platforms need to take their responsibilities seriously. They do not need to wait for Ofcom to tell them how to do it; they should be taking action now. They certainly need to make an assessment now, before next March or April, of where any risks are, because otherwise there is a danger that Ofcom will immediately take action against them, because it will say, “Sorry, you haven’t even done the basic minimum that you need to be able to make people safe.”

Everybody wants the online world to be as safe as the world that we all inhabit. The only way to do that is by making sure that the legislation is constantly updated. There are Members who often ask whether we want to update the Online Safety Act, because there are perhaps things that we might need to take further action on in future. We are very focused in the Department on trying to ensure that it is fully implemented in the shape that it is in now, before looking at new versions of the legislation in this field. But where, as in this case, we can take small, sensible measures that will make a significant difference, we are prepared to do that. That is the attitude that we are trying to adopt.

I hope the Committee agrees with me on the importance of updating the priority offences in the Online Safety Act as swiftly as possible, and I therefore commend the regulations to the Committee.

Question put and agreed to.

Public Library Usage: England

Chris Bryant Excerpts

Thursday 31st October 2024 Written Statements

[The Minister for Creative Industries, Arts and Tourism (Chris Bryant)]

Libraries matter to people. They provide inspiration, education, entertainment and a safe haven for many thousands every week. In addition to their core function of providing books to lend or consult, they provide digital services, audio recordings and information that can be vital to building a local business as well as bringing people together across communities.

Despite the value and benefit of public libraries for users, the library sector has faced several long-term challenges, and the context for library engagement and delivery has changed significantly. Recent challenges include: the impact of Government-driven austerity, leading to cuts to local authority budgets; the covid-19 pandemic, which drastically affected people’s engagement with and use of libraries; and the increasingly digital world. We cannot shy away from those challenges; the amount that councils are spending on public libraries in England fell by almost half in real terms between 2009-10 and 2022-23.

The Department for Culture, Media and Sport has a statutory responsibility to superintend and to promote the improvement of local government’s provision of public library services in England. The Culture Secretary is responsible for ensuring that library authorities deliver a “comprehensive and efficient” library service for their communities. DCMS works closely with sector stakeholders to achieve this, as well as to advocate for public libraries across Government.

As part of that work, the Government are publishing DCMS-commissioned research by Ipsos on barriers to library usage by the general public. The research explored the barriers to and enablers of library usage through a number of focus groups and sets out potential policy interventions that could be deployed by local or national Government to promote library usage. A copy of the research will be placed in the Libraries of both Houses.

This research has identified a number of ways that public libraries could tackle these challenges and encourage more engagement from the public, including:

raising awareness of the range of services that public libraries offer, particularly digital services;

addressing practical barriers to engagement with public services, such as opening hours and parking facilities;

clarification of the types of spaces available for all demographics; and

harnessing the appeal of public libraries as spaces that enable and encourage community cohesion.

We are sharing the findings to ensure that library services across England can actively consider how they might act on the results. DCMS is commissioning further research to test the findings and insights from phase 1 at scale to inform policy design and implementation. I will also be meeting with library sector organisations and leaders to discuss the challenges in the sector, reflect on priority policy areas and consider how best we can support the sector.

[HCWS178]

Phone-paid Services Authority: Transfer to Ofcom

Chris Bryant Excerpts

Thursday 24th October 2024 Written Statements

[The Minister for Data Protection and Telecoms (Chris Bryant)]

Premium-rate services will be familiar to anyone who watches prime-time Saturday night television, enters competitions on the radio or donates to charity via their phone. Premium-rate services are provided where goods or services are charged to one’s telephone bill and include premium-rate phone calls, for example, to directory enquiries.

Premium-rate services are used by millions of people, but the ability to simply text or make a call and be charged a potentially significant sum for such a small act makes these services prone to abuse, and therefore requires proportionate regulation.

The Phone-paid Services Authority, under different names including the Independent Committee for the Supervision of Standards of the Telephone Information Services and Phonepay Plus, has been the regulator of the premium-rate services sector since 1986. It has been largely successful in discharging its duties and establishing a compliant and productive market. However—like much of the telecoms landscape—the premium-rate services sector and the role of the regulator have changed since the mid-1980s.

Where once the PSA’s focus was largely on setting standards for the providers of premium-rate services, such as information lines and chat lines, the scope of the regulator’s remit has grown significantly. Consumers are now also able to pay for subscription streaming services, purchase apps and give money to charity via text message, with the charges being added to their phone bills. The sector has evolved and continues to evolve, and so must its regulation if consumers are to remain protected into the future.

The Government will be laying the Regulation of Premium Rate Services Order 2024 (SI 2024/1046), a statutory instrument to confer the regulatory functions of the kind exercised until now by the PSA on Ofcom. This decision reflects the continued commitment to streamlining regulatory oversight, enhancing consumer protections and ensuring the efficiency and coherence of our regulatory framework.

The transfer of regulatory responsibility will lead to the closure of the PSA, which is a private company, and Ofcom’s assumption of direct day-to-day regulatory oversight of the premium-rate services sector. To ensure consistency, the Regulation of Premium Rate Services Order 2024 largely replicates the existing code of practice, currently on its 15th version, which governs the sector. However, the order makes a number of minor changes, including extending requirements to all PRS providers to take steps to identify and mitigate risks posed by their services to those who are vulnerable.

To ensure that the specialist and dedicated staff of the PSA are retained and able to continue in their work, the Government will be laying the Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) (Transfer of Staff to the Office of Communications) Regulations 2024 (SI 2024/1047), a statutory instrument to ensure that the employment of the staff continues, and they are not disadvantaged by the transfer. PSA employees have been consulted about the transfer.

We recognise the significant contributions made by the PSA in safeguarding consumers to date. However, the time has come for a more integrated approach, and we believe this consolidation is the right step to ensure that the regulatory framework is fit for purpose in the digital age.

I will provide further updates to the House as we progress with this transition. We remain committed to ensuring a smooth handover and maintaining the highest standards for consumer protection throughout the process.

[HCWS163]

Secondary Ticketing Market

Chris Bryant Excerpts

Thursday 24th October 2024 Westminster Hall

[The Minister for Creative Industries, Arts and Tourism (Chris Bryant)]

It is a great delight to see you in your seat, Mr Rosindell, not least because we have been knocking around these parts as MPs for about the same time. It pays to hang on in there, doesn’t it? It is a great delight to congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Cramlington and Killingworth (Emma Foody) on securing this debate. This is an innovation that I have started in the last few debates that we have had here: I am going to try to answer the questions that hon. Members have put to the Minister as much as I possibly can.

[Dr Evans]

Hear, hear!

[Chris Bryant]

Hang on. In the words of Shania Twain, “That don’t impress me much”.

My hon. Friend the Member for Cramlington and Killingworth asked what we can do under the current legislation. It is a frustration, certainly for this Minister—I am not sure that previous Ministers felt it—that although several different bodies could bring forward prosecutions, the number of prosecutions has been so few. I fully understand why trading standards has struggled, because for the last 14 years, local authorities have had difficult budgets and sometimes it has not had the resources that it needs to take forward these issues.

It is not for me to directly tell trading standards or the CMA when to take action— we believe in the separation of powers, so that would be completely inappropriate —but the more that the prosecuting authorities feel able to act in this sphere, the better. If they want to come to me and say that they do not have the powers or the resources that they need, I am happy to hear that and we can act on that basis, but it is frustrating that I cannot tell them to act in individual cases.

[Dr Luke Evans]

Will the Minister give way?

[Chris Bryant]

I will not, if the hon. Gentleman does not mind, because I will try to answer all the questions. I will come on to his questions later.

One key matter that we will have to get right—if and when we bring forward legislation in this field—is enforcement, because there is no point bringing forward new lews if we cannot enforce them. We made manifesto commitments during the general election that we are absolutely determined to implement. As for when they will be implemented in legislation, we have had one King’s Speech; there will be another one coming along. I do not want to tell the Leader of the House precisely who will have what Bills at what time, because I might not stay in my post if I keep doing that, but if there is a Bill at some point, we will have to ensure that we sort out the enforcement issue. That is one element on which we will be consulting.

My hon. Friend the Member for Cramlington and Killingworth said that this issue is not at the top of the list of Government priorities. Whenever I post about it on X, people say, “Bryant, get on with doing the things that really matter to your constituents.” Well, this is one of those issues. The Government can do more than one thing at the same time. This is part of a panoply of measures that we need to implement to ensure that we put fans back at the heart of music, live events and sport. It is part of a wider Government strategy to rejig the economy so that it works for all of us. As my hon. Friend quoted:

“What is a club in any case?...It’s the noise, the passion, the feeling of belonging”.

It is fundamentally about the fans. They are the people who have created the value, and it is despicable that they are not able to benefit from it.

The hon. Member for Chelmsford (Marie Goldman) made the point that things have got worse since 2012. I think she is right, which is why it was a bit cheeky of the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Hinckley and Bosworth (Dr Evans), to pretend that they had not been in government for 14 years, and to actually praise the previous Government for taking no action in this area. We are determined to take the necessary action, and I hope that the hon. Member for Chelmsford and her party will support those measures.

My hon. Friend the Member for Washington and Gateshead South (Mrs Hodgson) used the word “parasite” at one point. On the “Today” programme, someone was saying that leeches have had great difficulty reproducing of late, but that they have discovered a new way. I do not want to overstate this metaphor, but we could argue that what we see in the secondary market is a form of leeching off the creative endeavours and the fan-led passion of so many others.

I will give some more examples. “Vampire” is my favourite of Olivia Rodrigo’s songs. We can get tickets for her concert in Manchester on 1 July next year on StubHub for £1,506, with a face value of £200. If we go to Viagogo, the price is £2,573 for exactly the same event—almost identical tickets, just a few rows in. That ticket’s face value, which we find only once we have gone two thirds of the way through the process with Viagogo, is £50. That is a shocking 5,146% increase. We can buy tickets for James Blunt—everybody knows I am not a great fan of his and he is no great fan of mine—that have a face value of £105 for £327 on StubHub.

It is not just about music: the England versus South Africa autumn international rugby tickets for 16 November, with a face value of £145, cost £889 on Viagogo. We should tell the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, who I think is the world’s greatest Bruce Springsteen fan, that tickets with a face value of £150 are selling on Gigsberg for £1,044.08. Tickets for the world darts championship being held at Alexandra Palace on 30 December this year, with a face value of £55, are £248 on Gigsberg. I could go on, because this is an endless daily source of—frankly—racketeering based on a fundamental unfairness, and that is what we want to put right.

My hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich (Jack Abbott) and I have talked about several issues in relation to the creative industries in his constituency. He made the point about Ed Sheeran, whom I think has made Framlingham castle more famous for him than for Queen Mary, which is quite an accomplishment after so many hundreds of years. That is also part of our tourism industry, as people want to go to Framlingham castle to see the place that “Castle on the Hill” was written about, so we need to capitalise on that. But we cannot if none of the money ends up going back into the creative industries or even into the local economy, and simply goes off into a black hole.

[Mrs Hodgson]

I do not want this debate to end without mentioning Ed Sheeran and how much he has done to try to tackle the scourge of ticket touting. Lots of other artists, such as Iron Maiden, Arctic Monkeys, Mumford & Sons and many others have tried, but Ed Sheeran went above and beyond by cancelling tickets when they had been resold. Taylor Swift never did that because she did not want to break the hearts of all her fans, but Ed Sheeran has been a real warrior in that regard.

[Chris Bryant]

Absolutely; that is a well-made point. Indeed, several other artists are moving in the same direction and I encourage more artists to go down that route. In the end, we need to get to a place where the face value is the face value and where other people are not racketeering on the back of that. Sometimes, the artist gets it in the neck because people think they have enabled it to happen, but that is profoundly unfair.

Incidentally, my hon. Friend the Member for Washington and Gateshead South also referred to Sam Fender. I am afraid that when Sam Fender was on at St James’s Park, I was watching P!nk at the Stadium of Light. Interestingly, having two massive gigs on at the same time had a dramatic effect on the local economy in the north-east, which is really important. There are issues for the whole visitor economy that need to be looked at, and I had an interesting conversation with all the local authorities and the new mayor, thinking about how we can make sure that the visitor economy works for everybody when such big events are going on at the same time. Part of that has to be about making sure that the money that is currently going out of the door and never ending up in the local economy does end up there.

My hon. Friend the Member for Knowsley (Anneliese Midgley)—she is a great friend and we have known each other a long time—spoke about going to see Cliff Richard. I once saw Cliff Richard live, but it was at a wedding and we did not have to pay. He did not sing “Congratulations”, which we thought was going to come along at any moment. My hon. Friend made a point about sudden changes in prices just as we get to the checkout. Of course, we would be absolutely furious if that happened in Sainsbury’s, Tesco or Morrisons. Why should we be any less furious when it happens on a website?

I was looking at tickets on StubHub earlier, when suddenly it said, “Your price is locked in.” Well, I thought that was the price. What do they mean when they say it is locked in? This is crazy; it is a deliberate attempt to make us stick and keep on buying the ticket, even when we have realised that we are buying something for 5,146% of its original face-value price, because that is the point at which we learn that that is the face value. This is completely wrong; it is not the market working in the interests of humanity, but humanity having to serve the market in an inappropriate way.

My hon. Friend the Member for Leigh and Atherton (Jo Platt) made some really significant points. Many of us are making identical points, but that strengthens the argument that we need to take action in this space, and we are absolutely determined to do so. We will do it in a responsible way, and we want to make sure that every single element of the legislation that we eventually bring forward works, does what it says on the tin and is able to be enforced. That is why we will launch a consultation in the very near future, and I very much hope that many hon. Members will want to take part in the discussion about precisely how that consultation ends up being framed.

I think this debate is the second or third outing the hon. Member for Cheltenham (Max Wilkinson) and I have had against each other. One cannot just blame one’s partner for one’s musical choices. That is like the moment in Genesis when Adam says,

“The woman beguiled me and I did eat”

after eating the forbidden fruit. I am not sure that Jason Donovan is the forbidden fruit, but if the hon. Member likes Jason Donovan, he should just own up to it. It is fine; we will not think any the less of him for going to see Jason Donovan all the time.

The hon. Member basically read out the list of things from the last debate that I said we wanted to do, so I am delighted that he agrees with me or that we agree with him. When it comes to the legislation and the consultation process, I very much hope that he will want to feed in. If there are things that we need to amend, just to make sure that we have got them right, we will do that.

The hon. Member for Hinckley and Bosworth started off extremely badly, because he basically dissed Tom Jones, who is from Pontypridd—it’s not unusual, but I do not think it is very well advised. He asked a series of questions. He asked, “When?” I have already said that it will be soon. It will be in the autumn, and I reckon that the autumn is already upon us, so it will be soon or imminent—he can choose any word he likes, but it will be soon. Patience is a virtue.

The hon. Member asked whether the private Member’s Bill being advanced by one of my colleagues is a handout Bill. No, it is not a handout Bill; it is a Bill advanced by a private Member. He also asked whether there will be a cap on prices. We already said during the general election that that is our intended direction of travel. It is a moot point precisely what level that cap should be set at, because I do not want to completely ban people from selling tickets. If someone has bought four tickets but suddenly only two people can go, because somebody is ill or they have to change the dates, it is perfectly legitimate that they should be able to sell the tickets on. They might also want to be able to recoup not only the cost of the tickets themselves but some additional costs. That is one of the things we want to consult on, and what would be a suitable cap. I note the point that has been made about a level of 20%, which some people think is too high. Some people think that 10% would be too high; some people think that it would be too low. We need to make sure we get the level right. And of course we will analyse the situation in Ireland.

As we have all been announcing what gigs we have been to this year, let me say that, in addition to P!nk, who I have been to see three times now:

“What about us?

What about all the plans that ended in disaster?”

I went to see Depeche Mode in Cologne—the Germans just couldn’t get enough. And on Saturday night, I went to see Bronski Beat, on the 40th anniversary of the album “Age of Consent” coming out. That goes to the heart of why music can be so important: there must be hundreds of thousands of people in this country who remember when “Age of Consent” came out 40 years ago and how it completely transformed their understanding of themselves and who they could be in life. Being able to go to a live gig to celebrate that with lots of other people is completely transformative, and that is what I want to be available for as many people in this country as possible at a sensible, safe and sane price, rather than people being excluded because some people have much deeper pockets than others.

For me, to use a Welsh term—if it is okay with the hon. Member for Hinckley and Bosworth for me to use a Welsh term and to refer to Welsh artists—this is about chwarae teg, or fair play. Fair play is all I am looking for in this market. First, we need transparency on price along the whole process. When a ticket comes up in the secondary market, people should be able to know what the face value of that ticket is from the beginning and what the deal is. Secondly, we need genuine equality at that 9 o’clock moment when everybody goes online to start bidding for tickets. The hoovering-up of tickets brings the word “hoover” into disrepute. It was striking that all the Coldplay tickets had gone in 40 minutes and yet, even before all of them had gone, tickets were being sold for £2,916 on the secondary market. That is clear evidence that something is awry with the way the system works.

Also, where there is an excessive increase in the secondary market, as we have referred to, that is just wholly inappropriate. It prices people out and, as many Members have said, it does not mean that any of the money goes back into the creative industries or the local economy, which is highly problematic.

I want openness in dynamic pricing. People should be able to understand from the very beginning if that is the process they are entering into. Originally, we were going to consult only on what precise measures we should bring forward in relation to the secondary market, but we are now looking at dynamic pricing. As several Members have said, there are versions of dynamic pricing that do work, and we do not want to ban those. I would argue that the early-bird tickets available for the Rhondda arts festival in my constituency—I suppose I should declare an interest—are a perfectly legitimate part of the whole equation. They sometimes bring money into venues early on, and we do not want to ban that.

We are not looking at dynamic pricing in the whole of the economy, but simply in relation to live events. Because that was not a manifesto commitment before the general election, we will be doing a call for evidence. If people have evidence of where the dynamic pricing model is not working and is counterproductive to the market, please get in touch.

I praise some of the action taken by some of the artists in the industry, which has been referred to. It looks like that is everything—no, there is one thing more I want to say.

[Dr Evans]

So close.

[Chris Bryant]

And yet so far. Change is coming. I say to all the people I have referred to—Gigsberg, Viagogo, StubHub, Ticketmaster and all the rest—that change is coming, so they should start getting ready for it, because that is what we are determined to deliver.

Telegraph Poles: Planning Permission

Chris Bryant Excerpts

Thursday 17th October 2024 Commons Chamber

[The Minister for Data Protection and Telecoms (Chris Bryant)]

As this is the first time that I have seen you in the Chair, Madam Deputy Speaker, may I say how glad I am that you were elected? I voted for you, so there. [Laughter.] It is a secret ballot, so you can’t check.

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham Northfield (Laurence Turner) on his election; it is good to see him in his place. I think I am right in saying that King’s Norton is part of his patch, but he may not be aware that one of the shields on the wall of this Chamber is for a former Member for King’s Norton who was killed in the second world war: a very brave man who fought for his country and who died making it possible for everybody to evacuate. Ronnie Cartland was his name; he was a Conservative, but his first rebellion was when he was angry that the Government were not doing enough for distressed areas, including in my constituency in south Wales. I feel I have an affinity with my hon. Friend’s constituency, although I hope I have not prompted him to rebel instantly.

I am delighted to have the opportunity to have this debate. I will be very clear: the vast majority of companies operating in this sphere are doing so entirely responsibly. They are doing a great favour for the nation in rolling out broadband of the kind of speed that everybody wants. I note the point that my hon. Friend the Member for Stourbridge (Cat Eccles) made about other countries in Europe; of course we aspire to that coverage for everybody across the UK.

The vast majority of companies are operating responsibly but, frankly, a few are behaving like cowboys. As a Government and as a Parliament, I think we sometimes need to say to cowboys that they are drinking in the last chance saloon. I have made that abundantly clear to some of the operators. I know that some operators are striving to co-operate with one another and with BT Openreach to ensure that no unnecessary street furniture suddenly appears and that there is full consultation with the local community before a road is dug up for a new duct or a new pole appears. Companies that are abiding by the code of conduct and fulfilling their obligations are almost as fed up as my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham Northfield and other hon. Friends; indeed, I am sure we could fill the whole Chamber with hon. Members who are equally fed up with the few companies that are bringing the whole system into disrepute.

That matters, because in the end the most important thing is that the wider strategy is right. We want to deliver good-value, very high-speed, more than ultrafast, gigabit-capable broadband based on fibre to the whole UK as fast as possible without having to provide vast amounts of taxpayers’ money. We therefore need to do so on the basis of commercial roll-out. Of course it is right that that should not be on the basis of monopoly and that competition, where possible, should drive choice for consumers and cheaper prices. That part of the strategy is absolutely right.

The part of the strategy that the previous Government were a bit more relaxed about—in fact, Ministers used to say categorically that they were completely relaxed about it—was overbuild. That has meant several companies digging up the road one after another, as has happened in some parts of the country. It has also meant several companies deciding that they need their own set of poles, or poles appearing in an area that had never previously had poles and in which ducts had been laid out but not used.

I am not completely relaxed about overbuild. I am concerned about it, because I know that a lot of constituents up and down the land are concerned. However, I want to make sure that commercial operators that are abiding by the rules and the code of conduct have every opportunity to continue to do so, in order that their commercial investments are not disrupted unnecessarily and we can deliver the infrastructure that we need across the whole United Kingdom. In the end, I want the cheapest possible prices for people and the highest possible capacity across the network for every property in the land. I would issue one slight corrective in this debate. Sometimes people say that this is a battle between urban and rural, but in fact some of the issues in urban areas are completely different from those in rural areas, and some are identical. I am not sure whether that dichotomy is fair.

My preference is for ducts wherever possible. That is not always possible, for a whole series of different logistical reasons in different areas. It is an undeniable fact that providing connectivity via poles is likely to be something like 10 times cheaper than doing it via ducts, so I fully understand why commercial operators want to install poles. I understand that that could mean that there will be poles in areas that have never had them before, and, in some areas, that is something that we will have to live with.

[Laurence Turner]

I thank my hon. Friend for giving way, and I agree with almost everything that he has said. I also wish to reflect on the moving tribute that he made to a predecessor Member for King’s Norton.

I understand the case that my hon. Friend has made, and I welcome his comments. Does he accept that, when the price of poles is already cheap, there is a risk that some companies will undercut each other on consumer service to reach lower margins? That is at the heart of the issue that we are debating today. It is about those operators and local cases in which standards have not been followed. Good network providers should have nothing to fear from the changes that have been suggested tonight.

[Chris Bryant]

Yes, I agree with every word that my hon. Friend has just said. He put it extremely well. He probably ought to be the Minister, and perhaps he will be soon. He is right. I also want to say that we should have shared infrastructure wherever that is possible. Legislation already makes provision for some of that to happen. In speaking to the operators, I have laid it down quite firmly that we need to enhance that infrastructure. I can perfectly understand why a commercial operator might say, “Well, I am not sure that I really want to share with my competitor”. That is why a new code of conduct has taken a while. I hope that new code of conduct, which I have discussed with the operators, will be laid out very soon. There is urgency about this, because the roll-out is happening this week, next week and the week after. We need to tackle these issues in short measure, not wait a long period of time.

At the very latest, this code of conduct will be published in the early new year, and I encourage everybody in the sector to abide by the code. I encourage competitors to tell the two or three companies that are not playing by the rules that they are bringing all of them into disrepute. The single most important issue for most of these operators is how they will drive take-up. It is about not just roll-out—that is their investment—but take-up. When we talk about 100 megabits per second—or about gigabits per second—many people have no idea what we are talking about. The truth is that all of our homes and businesses will need much greater broadband capacity in the near future, so we do have to roll this out. We have to make sure that people understand why they need it. The danger is that, if this whole process undermines confidence in the roll-out, it will affect take-up. It is in the commercial interests of everybody to make sure that we come to a better set of solutions in this area.

Let me go through a couple of the specific points that my hon. Friend raised. As he knows, the cabinet siting and pole siting code of practice was issued in November 2016. It sets out guidance on best practice relating to deployment, encouraging operators to site apparatus responsibly and engage proactively with both local authorities and the local community, and he laid out some of the specifics that follow on from that—the 28 days’ notice that needs to be given to local councils and so on.

There are some operators—not the ones my hon. Friend is talking about, but for instance, IX Wireless, which I had in my office earlier this afternoon—that are operating a different model, and a different set of issues relates specifically to them. There, too, I have tried to make it clear what Government expectations are. As I say, following a meeting with the operators, the industry has committed to revising the code of practice, which I think will be much tougher, and the guidance should be published in the new year. However, I am absolutely clear that if voluntary adherence does not work, we reserve the right to change the law. We are in earnest about that, because we are aware of the concerns people have expressed.

My hon. Friend is also right to say that Ofcom has stated that it would investigate any cases where poles are sited in a way that is not consistent with the requirements and guidelines in place, including where they block residents’ drives or where operators systematically fail to engage with local planning authorities’ suggestions. As my hon. Friend has already referred to, Ofcom has opened an investigation into whether Brsk has failed to comply with its obligations. I am keen to have a meeting with Brsk, and I hope that will happen in the next few weeks. I do not want to interfere in the process that Ofcom is engaged in; that is a matter for Ofcom and I would not seek to undermine what is effectively a quasi-judicial operation. However, I want to make sure that Brsk fully understands the concerns not only of many Birmingham MPs—I noted the contribution of my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham Edgbaston (Preet Kaur Gill) earlier—but of the Government in this field.

I commend my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham Northfield for getting the debate so early in his time as a Member of Parliament. He is obviously going to be a doughty defender of the rights of his constituents. Madam Deputy Speaker, I noticed that you were nodding along—I know you are not really allowed to do that. You are shaking your head as well—you are not allowed to do that either. None the less, I think you broadly agreed with the thrust of what I was saying, so I feel as if I have united the House. On that note, I bid you farewell.

Question put and agreed to.

Oral Answers to Questions

Chris Bryant Excerpts

Wednesday 16th October 2024 Commons Chamber

[Sir Ashley Fox (Bridgwater) (Con)]

3. What steps his Department is taking to enhance mobile phone reception in the Bridgwater constituency.

[The Minister for Data Protection and Telecoms (Chris Bryant)]

The most recent statistics, which are available for the old shape of the hon. Gentleman’s constituency, suggest that 97% of properties there have 4G connection. However, I am not sure that the statistics reflect the lived experience of most people in his constituency—or, I suspect, any other constituency in the land. That is not good enough, which is why our ambition is for all populated areas to have stand-alone 5G by 2030.

[Sir Ashley Fox]

I am grateful to the Minister for his answer. Bridgwater has a mixture of urban and rural areas, and many of my constituents in the rural parts complain of almost non-existent signals. The O2 signal in Burnham-on-Sea is non-existent. In Pawlett, the Vodafone and EE signals are non-existent. In Chedzoy, the EE signal is non-existent. [Interruption.] Can he confirm that the Government intend to continue funding the shared rural network, so that we can improve coverage for all our constituents?

[Chris Bryant]

Well, I note that the mobile signal seems to be working in here, which is unusual for the rest of the country. We have to get this right, because people cannot live without a proper mobile signal. It is essential for people’s lives, their health and their ability to run a business, and we are determined to put things right. In direct answer to the hon. Gentleman’s question, yes, we will continue to fund the shared rural network.

[Ms Julie Minns (Carlisle) (Lab)]

In constituencies such as Bridgwater and Carlisle, poor mobile coverage forces people to rely on their fixed-line services. Does the Minister share my concern that the switch-off of the public switched telephone network will leave constituents unable to access 999 services in the event of an emergency?

[Chris Bryant]

I welcome my hon. Friend to her place. She makes a really good point: as we take away the copper lines and move over to the new technology, which we need to do, it is absolutely essential that we ensure there is a safe transition, even if it is only for people who have telecare devices on which they rely for their own safety—I am sure we all have relatives who have one of those. I have already met all the operators, and I am determined to crack the whip on this issue.

[Mr Speaker]

I call Ayoub Khan—not here.

--- Later in debate ---

[Aphra Brandreth (Chester South and Eddisbury) (Con)]

6. What steps he is taking to roll out Project Gigabit in the Chester South and Eddisbury constituency.

[The Minister for Data Protection and Telecoms (Chris Bryant)]

As part of Project Gigabit, Freedom Fibre is delivering a contract to provide 15,000 homes and businesses across Cheshire, including in the hon. Lady’s constituency, with access to fast, reliable broadband. In addition, over 800 vouchers have been issued to connect premises in her constituency through the gigabit broadband voucher scheme.

[Aphra Brandreth]

Close to half the wards in my constituency are judged by Ofcom to be in the worst 30% of all areas in the UK when it comes to having a decent broadband connection. My constituents will be deeply concerned by reports that the current review of the next stage of Project Gigabit could see funds diverted from hard-to-reach rural areas to major cities such as central London. Will the Minister offer a concrete guarantee that no rural community will be left behind by the Government’s review?

[Chris Bryant]

I do not see it as a divide between rural and urban, because there are urban issues as well as rural issues. The hon. Lady is absolutely right that the previous Government failed to deliver in her constituency, and we intend to put that right. She should not believe everything she reads in the newspapers. I know that she was trying to have a meeting with Building Digital UK, and I am happy to make sure that we can both sit down with officials to try to sort out these problems in her constituency—and I am happy to do the same for any other Members.

[Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent and Rhymney) (Lab)]

The Minister knows that improved connectivity is important to the economy of our south Wales valleys. However, it has been hard for me to get definitive information on the roll-out of Project Gigabit to Trefil, just north of Tredegar, in my constituency. Will he please look into this so that my constituents in Trefil, and across the rest of Blaenau Gwent and Rhymney, know when their broadband service will improve?

[Chris Bryant]

I am happy to arrange the same kind of meeting with my hon. Friend as I offered to the hon. Member for Chester South and Eddisbury (Aphra Brandreth). He is right that there are very significant problems in south Wales valleys communities, and we need to put those right. It is a shame that we have not had a digital inclusion strategy for 10 whole years, which is a disgrace. That is one of the things we need to put right.

[Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD)]

7. What steps he is taking to help support the UK space sector.

[The Minister for Data Protection and Telecoms (Chris Bryant)]

We have already debated some of these issues, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, and he is right to stress that the UK space sector is one of our most important areas of possible economic growth. We want to maximise our unique potential in this area, and I look forward to working with him and the companies based in his constituency that are seeking to do this.

[Mr Carmichael]

I thank the Minister, as this sector offers massive economic and strategic opportunities for the United Kingdom. The development of the Shetland spaceport at SaxaVord is now significantly ahead of the field, so getting that project across the line will bring benefits to other projects across the United Kingdom. Will the Minister meet me and the developers of SaxaVord in Shetland to discuss what the Government can do, directly or indirectly, to help?

[Chris Bryant]

It feels like I will be meeting everyone, but I am very happy to meet the right hon. Gentleman. Indeed, I am meeting Orbex later today, because an important point is that we have a specific geographical and skills advantage in the launch sector, which we need to exploit to our best advantage for the whole UK economy. It is not just about what happens on Shetland; it is about lots of businesses in the supply chain, from mission control to technological support. Yes, I am very happy to meet him.

[Mike Reader (Northampton South) (Lab)]

8. What steps he is taking to protect children using the Roblox platform from online predators.

--- Later in debate ---

[Rebecca Smith (South West Devon) (Con)]

T5. Building Digital UK has recently classified Devon, including rural areas such as Dartmoor national park, as type C procurement under Project Gigabit. However, there are concerns about how agile and timely its delivery will be. Will the Minister meet me to discuss the speedy roll-out of broadband in Dartmoor national park?

[The Minister for Data Protection and Telecoms (Chris Bryant)]

it seems—[Interruption.] It seems I have never been so popular!

I am very happy to meet the hon. Lady, as she makes a serious point. We want every single part of this country to share in the digital future. We can do that only if we have the infrastructure that we need everywhere in the UK.

Independent Film Tax Credit

Chris Bryant Excerpts

Wednesday 9th October 2024 Written Statements

[The Minister for Creative Industries, Arts and Tourism (Chris Bryant)]

Today the Government have laid regulations to bring in the independent film tax credit (IFTC). This will provide an uplift to our existing audiovisual expenditure credit (AVEC) specifically targeted to support the growth and success of low-budget British films. These regulations set out the eligibility criteria for film production companies, which will be able to apply for an eligibility certificate from the British Film Institute from 30 October this year. Companies will be able to apply to His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs to claim the IFTC from 1 April 2025.

These regulations create the mechanism for low-budget film productions and international film co-productions to apply for tax relief in the form of an enhanced AVEC. This targeted uplift will be at a higher rate of 53% compared to the normal rate of 34% for other films.

The regulations include a budget condition to ensure that this tax relief specifically targets independent productions with a budget of up to £15 million.

To avoid productions with budgets slightly over £15 million receiving a much lower amount of relief, films with core budgets of up to £23.5 million are eligible. The IFTC has a cap of £6.36 million on the total cash credit receivable, which is based on qualifying core expenditure (i.e. “core budget”) of £15 million. This creates a taper in the proportionate value of the credit for films with core budgets above £15 million.

The enhanced AVEC rate will be available for £15 million of a production’s budget. There is also a “modified creative connection” condition which means that the film must have a director or scriptwriter who is a British citizen or ordinarily resident in the UK, or be an official UK co-production. Finally the regulations also detail the particulars and evidence that applicants will need to provide in order to access this enhanced relief.

The regulations have been laid alongside appointed day regulations which mean that from 30 October 2024, eligible companies will be able to apply for certification for this enhanced uplift. Film production companies can claim this enhanced relief in relation to films whose principal photography began on or after 1 April 2024. HMRC will begin accepting applications on 1 April 2025.

Both the Corporation Tax (Certification as Low-Budget Film) Regulations 2024 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2024/1009/pdfs/uksi_20241009_en.pdf and the Finance (No. 2) Act 2024 (Applications for Certification as Low-Budget Film: Appointed Day) Regulations 2024 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2024/1010/pdfs/uksi_20241010_en.pdf have been published on legislation.gov.uk.

[HCWS115]

Edinburgh Festivals: Cultural and Economic Contribution

Chris Bryant Excerpts

Tuesday 8th October 2024 Westminster Hall

[Max Wilkinson (Cheltenham) (LD)]

It is a pleasure, Mr Efford, to serve under your chairmanship and I congratulate the hon. Member for Edinburgh East and Musselburgh (Chris Murray) on securing this important debate.

We have heard many inspiring stories today about Edinburgh. I regret that my most recent cultural experience in Edinburgh was bellowing out Proclaimers songs in Fingers piano bar at my stag party. That was a great day out, but it does not match up to some of the other stories that we have heard—

[The Minister for Creative Industries, Arts and Tourism (Chris Bryant)]

It does not sound like it would. [Laughter.]

[Max Wilkinson]

It was a lovely evening out as well, Minister.

Our challenge is that we must build a creative environment that showcases the best of British talent—bringing together British culture and creativity, and showcasing it for the world—and that we use that to foster a thriving and informed democracy. The impact of cultural festivals in achieving those aims is substantial.

In the case of the Edinburgh festival, we have already heard that it benefits Edinburgh itself by more than £400 million; the wider impacts on the rest of Scotland and the UK are much, much bigger. The festival opens the door to tourism for the rest of our nation, which is a really important aspect that we must not miss out when speaking about cultural events.

That is why it is very worrying to hear the concerns of festival organisers, which have been highlighted in recent news coverage. Regardless of funding pressures, it is our opinion that it is extremely important that the Scottish Government do what they can to meet their past funding pledges. For appropriate balance, I will add that such responsibility extends to other public funders of cultural activities across the rest of the UK, whether those are devolved nations or local government.

Festivals, such as the festivals in Edinburgh that we are debating today or the Cheltenham festivals in my own constituency, play a key role in our cultural life. It is vital that they receive the support necessary to continue to flourish. This week, my constituency is celebrating the 75th anniversary of the Cheltenham Literature Festival, which continues to flourish. However, despite large ticket sales, reductions in funding and in-kind support mean that the organisers of the Cheltenham Literature Festival have had to make some really tough choices in the past few years. Nevertheless, they still engage youngsters in reading to the tune of around 23,000 children every year. Of course, reading for pleasure is one of the single biggest indicators of a child’s future success.

At the launch event for the Cheltenham Literature Festival last Friday evening, supporters—including me—were reminded that the UK spends just 0.46% of its GDP on culture; that is based on the latest figures, which are from 2022. According to the University of Warwick’s “The State of the Arts” report, the UK is not alone in Europe in cutting its cultural budgets in recent years, but that does not make it right and we remain towards the bottom of the European league table, lagging behind our neighbours. If we are to remain a cultural superpower, that situation needs to be addressed.

Cultural funding extends to local festivals, theatres, cinemas, museums, art galleries, music and dance venues, libraries and public spaces. These are all vital to communities the length and breadth of our country. They are spaces devoted to creative endeavour. They not only fuel local economies; they also stimulate community participation across a whole range of creative activities.



In addition, we must not ignore the positive impact of the cultural sector on another great challenge facing our nation: deteriorating mental health. As we seek to reduce pressure on the NHS, we should look to the arts and culture as part of the non-medical therapy available. While few in the Chamber would dispute the difficult economic inheritance of this Government, we cannot look past the positive economic and social impact of investment in culture. It generates incomes and helps communities to thrive in non-monetary measures, too, as the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) pointed out.

What can we do to help our cultural sector boost the economy and increase happiness and wellbeing? Central Government can make a difference in many ways, although at heart it often comes down to money. However, Westminster and devolved Governments can make other important contributions. The promise made by the new Government for the restoration of multi-year funding settlements for local government will provide an important route to that. The hon. Member for Mid Derbyshire (Jonathan Davies) mentioned creative subjects, and we agree on that.

Planning reform offers another opportunity. Engaging the cultural sector in that will be important. We can beef up powers for local areas to protect cherished cultural venues. The cultural sector, too, would benefit from the abolition of business rates and the introduction of a commercial landowner levy.

A more sensitive subject is freedom of expression in the cultural sector. We all need to remember that sometimes we will see and hear things that we do not agree with. If art is not there to stimulate debate, it is nothing.

Finally, Chair—

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Luke Evans (Hinckley and Bosworth) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your stewardship, Mr Efford. I hope you do not mind that I have taken off my collar to allow a bit of movement. If my head starts to wobble, please do intervene. Congratulations to the hon. Member for Edinburgh East and Musselburgh (Chris Murray) on securing this debate. It is fantastic to have a discussion on this. Looking through Hansard, I note there has not been a debate on this topic since 1992. He brings a wealth of knowledge and passion that clearly came through, as it did in speeches by a variety of MPs whom I do not have time to thank. That was our own MP fringe event happening right here.

I admit I have never been to the fringe festival, although strangely I, too, have been to a stag do in Edinburgh. I always like to look what the best joke was each year. This year’s was from Mark Simmons:

“I was going to sail around the globe in the world’s smallest ship but I bottled it.”

I first saw him on TikTok, which shows the power of how these artists can spread. Have I stolen the Minister’s line?

[Chris Bryant]

Yes.

[Dr Evans]

I was also interested to hear that another major Scottish city—Glasgow—has been successful in getting the Commonwealth games. I believe the hon. Member for Edinburgh East and Musselburgh moved to Edinburgh from his home town of Glasgow. It is great to see that success in both those cities is supporting the UK as a cultural destination. I wish the city of Edinburgh well as it prepares for its international storytelling festival, with Hogmanay on the horizon.

The previous Government provided significant support to the sector, including the then Chancellor’s spring Budget, in which he announced £8.6 million of support to festivals, to help boost Scotland’s status as a destination for creative industries, as we have heard. I also understand that the Edinburgh and South East Scotland city regional deal, agreed under the previous Government, is giving the city the chance to unlock opportunities for economic and cultural growth.

The hon. Member for Edinburgh East and Musselburgh is well aware of the successes of the festivals. I thought I would add a couple more bits of data: more than 2.6 million tickets issued, more than 3,746 shows registered, and more than 60 different countries represented on stage. That shows the appeal, not only locally but internationally. As my hon. Friend the Member for Gosport (Dame Caroline Dinenage) said, the R&D incubator for the creative industries is something we must cherish.

I noted that the Edinburgh fringe app was downloaded 124,000 times, which shows that a traditional festival can move with the times, and work with others to be creative and engage more people. The extent of the data on the impact of this year’s festival has not been fully quantified or produced yet. In 2022, the Edinburgh fringe festival was on a par with the FIFA World cup. In 2022, BOP Consulting was commissioned by the Edinburgh festival to undertake an economic impact of the previous 11 Edinburgh festivals. The festival in 2022 generated an economic impact of £407 million—a significant increase from £280 million in 2015—not to mention the 7,000 direct jobs and 8,500 jobs across Scotland.

As the hon. Member for Edinburgh East and Musselburgh said in his maiden speech just a couple of months ago,

“culture, hospitality and tourism form the economic backbone of my constituency, not least in August, when it plays host to the Edinburgh international festival and fringe.” —[Official Report, 25 July 2024; Vol. 752, c. 883.]

With that, and turning to the Minister, I am interested in understanding whether he believes the visitor levy being proposed in Scotland will benefit the Edinburgh festivals. Will it benefit the city of Edinburgh and Scottish tourism as a whole? I understand that Edinburgh City Council, as well as Glasgow and Aberdeen, are looking at using the legislation. Does the Minister feel that Scotland has got this right and is he considering that across his Department in Westminster?

The Minister has a jam-packed portfolio, and I would hate tourism and the creative industries to become a fringe, as they are too valuable for that. Will he ensure that the creative industry budget is maintained in the upcoming Budget? Has he spoken directly to the Chancellor about tourism and creative industries? What assurances has he received that the creative industries will be protected, with tax reliefs maintained?

That being said, we are all here to celebrate a fantastic event. I again put on record my thanks to the hon. Member for Edinburgh East and Musselburgh for bringing this forward, from 1992 all the way to 2024.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Minister for Creative Industries, Arts and Tourism (Chris Bryant)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Efford. I should point hon. Members to the Register of Members’ Financial Interests, because I was paid by the Edinburgh book festival a year ago. I note that nobody else has had that to point out.

I will start by paying tribute, as many others have, to Shona McCarthy. She has done a phenomenal job over nine years. She has taken the festival through some of its most difficult moments, and it is striking that 2.6 million people bought tickets this year, which is the fourth highest number in its 77 years. That is absolutely brilliant, and we wish her well.

The Minister—I am sorry, I meant the shadow Minister. We keep on doing this because we are not used to it. I do not think the shadow Minister said that the joke he told was by Mark Simmons—he should attribute jokes. Simmons also had the no. 5 joke, which was:

“I love the Olympics. My friend and I invented a new type of relay baton: well, he came up with the idea, I ran with it.”

[Laughter.] Yes, it was terrible, wasn’t it?

I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh East and Musselburgh (Chris Murray). It is great to have a lot of new friends, especially from Scotland, and we are delighted to see Edinburgh so well represented. I will try an innovative thing, which is to answer the questions that have been asked as much as I can.

My hon. Friend asked about multi-annual financial planning. In so far as we possibly can, we want to be able to give economic stability to arts organisations, just as we do to local authorities in many other parts of the economy. That is one of the things we are driving towards in the spending review. However, I am afraid I must point him to the fact that there will be a Budget at the end of the month, and I can hear my right hon. Friend the Chancellor in the back of my ear already saying, “That’s far enough, Bryant!”

My hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh East and Musselburgh asked about cross-UK engagement. I want to make this absolutely clear: I do not want to engage in any kind of cultural battles with Scotland, Northern Ireland or Wales. We should be seeing this as a joint venture. The creative industries are a part of what defines this nation across the world, and we will only do well if we work together to achieve the best outcomes for performers, people who might become performers and the industry as a whole.

My hon. Friend makes a good point about visas. I will take that away and think about how we could work most creatively with the Home Office to make sure we get this right. It is not just about people coming into the UK; I also argue that it is about UK acts being able to tour in Europe. I was absolutely delighted earlier this year to go and see Depeche Mode in Cologne. I have never seen Germans so excited; they just can’t get enough. [Laughter.] Thank you.

My hon. Friend made an important point about crisis support. I am worried about the situation that arose, in particular, for the book festival and Baillie Gifford. He makes a fair point about whether that is the right way to go about making important points about climate change. One of the things we need to do as a Department is look at the whole package of the whole funding of all the arts and creative industries, which used to come from five or six different segments, including local government, which was prominent in that when we were in power before 2010. Most of that funding has completely gone, and philanthropy is struggling outside London and the south-east. We need to look at this in the round.

It is great to see the Chair of the Culture, Media and Sport Committee, the hon. Member for Gosport (Dame Caroline Dinenage), in her place, as she always is—she was in your place earlier for a previous debate, Mr Efford. She makes very good points about short lets. The legislation already in place for England and Wales, for which we are now considering how we will implement and take forward secondary legislation, would not apply in Scotland. However, we want to learn some of the lessons of what has happened in Scotland so that we can apply sensible legislation in England and Wales. I thought her point about co-operation was very well made—my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh East and Musselburgh made that point as well. It is not just about us: there is a Government in Scotland, and it is also about local government across the whole of the UK. In England, I would argue that it is also about regional mayors, who play a very important part in the creative industries.

My hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh South West (Dr Arthur) referred to quieter parts of the year. It is a very well-made point. I would also argue that there is an issue about quieter parts of the country. It is all very well getting all the tourists to come to London, Oxford, Cambridge, Stratford, Bath and Edinburgh, but if they do not also go to other places—Stirling, I know, has a very fine castle, because I danced the Highland fling in it when I was 12, I think. Making sure that the benefits accrue to the whole of Scotland and to the wider economy is a really important part of what we need in our tourism strategy.

My hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh South West also made a good point about a tourism career. That is something we need to take far more seriously as a country. Why is it that somebody who works in a bar in Paris, or in a restaurant in France, Spain, or wherever, thinks that is a career for life, whereas we think it is somehow a demeaning job, which it is not? We need to completely transform that if we are to transform our tourism opportunities so that we get more than 32 million people coming to the UK.

The omnipresent hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) made important points about Northern Ireland performers—some of the best comedians we have known over the years—coming to Edinburgh and getting an opportunity, and about other festivals. Trying to get the economic possibility for festivals to flourish goes back to the point I was trying to make about the whole package of finances available.

My hon. Friend the Member for Mid Derbyshire (Jonathan Davies)—a former music teacher, no less— made very good points about other festivals. I am not sure about the Gilbert and Sullivan festival—I am worried now that I might get into trouble. I just remember that line from “Trial by Jury”: “She might very well pass for 42, in the dark, with the light behind her”—

[Jonathan Davies]

“In the dusk”.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Bryant]

There we are—I have been corrected. The most important point my hon. Friend made was about creative education. We need to make sure that every single child in this country gets a proper creative education. It is a force multiplier for other forms of education and means that children will prosper better in the work market. We are determined to transform that.

My hon. Friend—sorry, the hon. Member—for Edinburgh West (Christine Jardine)—she is a friend as well; she is a very friendly person—is from my mother’s part of the world: Glasgow. She made a very important point about the world’s window on us. That element of soft power, which several Members have referred to, is important. The Edinburgh festivals as a whole are an important part of that. For instance, the film festival and the television festival are world-renowned moments when people look to the UK. She talked about the cost of accommodation in Edinburgh, which goes back to some of our discussions about short lets. It is a significant concern, and one of the things that we want to learn lessons from.

My hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh North and Leith (Tracy Gilbert) also referred to accommodation costs. I am conscious that some people think we are going to be looking at dynamic pricing in relation to those costs: we are not; we are looking at dynamic pricing in relation to tickets. It is very interesting that the Edinburgh festivals do not use dynamic pricing. That is a really important part of making the whole package affordable and more accessible to more people.

My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow West (Patricia Ferguson) referred to the book festival—it is not just because Walter Scott gets a great big statue; so many literary figures have come from Edinburgh. She also referred to the importance of Edinburgh being a UNESCO city of literature.

The hon. Member for Cheltenham (Max Wilkinson) talked about the Cheltenham festival. I welcome him to his place and look forward to working with him. I am going to answer the questions from the shadow Minister, who I think sings in a barbershop quartet or chorus—

[Dr Evans]

Not quite yet.

[Chris Bryant]

Not yet—all right. He asked about the levy in Scotland, which is of interest to lots of people. Lots of other countries do it; it is not something that we are pursuing at the moment. He asked about the creative industries in the Budget—well, he will have to wait for the Budget, won’t he? He asked about tax reliefs—he can wait until tomorrow morning.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House has considered the cultural and economic contribution of the Edinburgh festivals.

Creative Industries: Stoke-on-Trent

Chris Bryant Excerpts

Tuesday 8th October 2024 Westminster Hall

[The Minister for Creative Industries, Arts and Tourism (Chris Bryant)]

It is a particular joy to see you in the Chair, Dame Caroline, as with one of your many other hats on you have a passionate interest in the creative industries. It is great to have you here.

I will start by commending my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Gareth Snell) on being elected again, which is a great delight—this is a slightly different debate from the one we might have had if it had been led by his predecessor. It is good to see him return to the House. He says he hopes that I enjoyed his tour; the danger is that I enjoyed the tour so much that I might not need to make the actual tour.

I will answer the specific questions first and then make some other comments. First, on whether I will visit, I am very happy to; it is just a question of when we can make that work. I am in two Departments, so it would be good if we could try to combine some of the work on tech with some of the work on creative industries, which would follow on from what the council has done locally. I think of tech as a creative industry, but the council has led the way in trying to combine the two.

Secondly, on whether we will look at creating a creative cluster, my hon. Friend makes a very good case. We are looking at what we need to do about creative clusters in the next round of announcements next year, so he has made a good bid and my officials are listening very attentively.

[Adam Jogee]

Will the Minister give way?

[Chris Bryant]

Oh dear.

[Adam Jogee]

Just very briefly. It is important to reiterate my hon. Friend’s point that there is a groundswell of support in north Staffordshire for such a cluster, so I urge the Minister to take not just his word for it, but mine. The Minister talked about combination. I hope that his visit will be combined with a visit to Stoke-on-Trent Central and indeed Newcastle-under-Lyme.

[Chris Bryant]

Well, I am also the Minister for tourism, so I feel as if I will be going on a tourism visit. We will see what works as the best kind of visit. I am always a little worried about trying to do too many things in one visit and then nobody gets a proper insight into anything, but we will certainly look at that. My hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central makes a good point about creative clusters. It is a key way of developing a real levelling-up strategy.

My hon. Friend’s third question was whether the creative industries will be a key part of an industrial strategy. The Government are working on this at pace, and I can assure him that we are making a strong case for the creative industries being an absolutely essential part of that strategy. I do not think Britain can have a successful future economically speaking—let alone sociologically, and in many other ways—unless that is the case, so I can assure him that it will be.

My hon. Friend asked a fourth question—I am answering all these questions directly; it won’t catch on—about whether we would have conversations with the Department for Education on the curriculum. I will not bother reading out what has been written for me—the answer is yes. We are already having those conversations. We have seen a shocking decline—in the region of 40% to 50%—in the number of students studying music, drama and art over the past 14 years, and we want to reverse that. It is not going to happen overnight, but we have to put all these subjects right back at the heart of the curriculum. That is an essential part of what we have to do.

[Gareth Snell]

I thank the Minister for responding directly to my points—I do not think that ever happened during the entire time I was last in Parliament, so the novelty is not lost on me. On the curriculum, can the Minister ensure that when that conversation happens, there is emphasis on the communities that should have access to that? I know the Minister will do that, but I want it on the record. While having art on the curriculum works fine, often, in working-class communities like mine, it is not seen as being for those people or for those communities. I know the Minister is a great advocate for communities like those we represent. Can he ensure that the DFE understands that it is no good just having art on the curriculum, and that it has to be actively encouraged in communities that ordinarily would not take it up?

[Chris Bryant]

My hon. Friend makes a very good point. It will be a complete failure for this country if the only place a student can study an art A-level is at Eton, because it has a good art teacher and art classroom and all the rest of it, or if the only place a student can throw a pot in a school is in a very middle-class area with lots of middle-class parents. I know this from my own experience: in the Rhondda and Ogmore, a vital part of what we do well for the nation is producing people who have excelled in the creative industries, but those people have often had to do so despite not having those opportunities locally. Artists such as Ernest Zobole and Charles Burton were involved in teaching locally, which is important to ensure there is a pipeline for young people who are thinking about art, drama and so on.

I would also argue, incidentally, that a creative education is a force multiplier for all other aspects of education. What is it that many employers want? They want somebody who will be able to confidently answer the phone. That self-confidence is as likely to come from having done a drama course and learned how to speak publicly, to project and use the voice and to be part of a team, or from having sung in a choir or played in an orchestra, as it is from being really good at maths. That is the kind of attitude that we need to adopt.

I do not want to stray too far into the subject areas of the Department for Education, but it is worth pointing out that what is in the national curriculum needs to be advanced in every school, not just some schools. The structure of education in England is obviously different from that in Wales, but I am conscious that we need to take these issues forward.

The main point of this debate, of course, is that the creative industries are an enormous part of our cultural and economic future. They represent £125 billion of value to the UK. My hon. Friend referred to video games, which are a fast-growing sector. Last week, I visited Ubisoft in Newcastle, which represents significant investment; large numbers of people will be working there. Exactly the same is true in Stoke. The video games industry is worth something like £7 billion in the UK now, which I confidently expect to grow in the years ahead—not least because it builds on things that we have been exceptionally good at in the UK, such as producing books, telling stories, creating characters and music and technological development. I played “Assassin’s Creed” last year, very briefly; I was not very good. However, what was fascinating was that its development used archaeologists and historians to make sure that everything that people see on the screen is perfect. That is a whole nexus of creativity that we want to develop.

Growth in this sector over the last 14 years has been higher than in the rest of the economy and we know that it will continue to be higher in the future, as long as we make the right investments and the right decisions. The creative industries sector is a large employer in the UK, employing some 2 million people.

There is nobody here from the previous Government to defend themselves, but I felt that over the last few years that the creative industries sector was denigrated a bit, as if going into the creative industries was not a proper job; ballerinas were told to retrain and things like that. That is not our attitude. We believe that the creative industries are an absolutely essential part of our future economic growth.

My hon. Friend made the point about levelling up, in a sense, although he did not use the term—maybe we need to ditch it. Nevertheless, it is an important point that there are 55 creative industries clusters and 700 micro- clusters around the UK, and this is an opportunity to ensure that that happens everywhere, because talent is everywhere but opportunity is not. That is what we really need to change and that is what our strategy will be devoted to. It is not a “nice to have”; it is absolutely essential to our economic future.

My hon. Friend referred to Stoke as the crucible of creativity, which I think is a reference to the burning of the pottery at the start of the process, although I now have the title of Arthur Miller’s play going through my head; that play slightly ruined my school days. However, he made a very important point about the World Crafts Council granting world craft city status to Stoke. When Clarice Cliff died in 1972 lots of people probably thought that she would be forgotten, but she has now been brought back, not least because of things such as “Antiques Roadshow”. Again, this is a cycle of creativity, whereby different creative industries feed off and enhance one another.

My hon. Friend also referred to video games; I think that it is Junction 15 Productions that won the Emmy for its work on the Beijing Olympics. He is quite right—the industry is worth £7 billion. As I saw in Leamington Spa, it is essential that there is close working with the local university, to ensure that there are people coming through. The course at the University of Staffordshire is world-renowned. That is a really important part of ensuring that people are coming through into the industry, because it has vacancies; in particular, it has vacancies five and 10 years in. That is an important part of the work that we need to do.

I commend the city on developing a cultural strategy for 2022-28. It has been a cross-party process; the strategy was originally introduced by Conservatives and was carried forward by Labour. I wish that every single local authority in the land—as well as the Mayors, many of whom are advancing such plans—had a similar kind of strategy, because in the end all of this has to be delivered at local level, and it is creating that ferment of excitement that enables these things to happen. I commend Stoke for that. As I said earlier, the combination of culture and tech is important; for example, making sure that there is full fibre roll-out across the whole of the city is an important part of making many modern creative industries flourish.

There was a reference to the New Vic Theatre in Newcastle-Under-Lyme. I note that Angela Carter’s “The Company of Wolves” is on at the moment and I also note that the Christmas show is “The Three Musketeers”. Indeed, the publicity for “The Three Musketeers” might be referring to my hon. Friend when it says:

“A spirited country boy arrives in the big city with big dreams”.

There we are; I think that is him to a tee.

I will just make some final points. First, as I have said, creative education is absolutely essential for what we want to achieve, and we also want to reform the apprenticeship levy so that it works much better for creative industries, and so that there is portability and flexibility. Thus far, the levy has not really worked in that regard, but we are working on it.

Secondly, I have an ambition that there should be no impediment for somebody from a working-class, ordinary background from whatever community in the UK, to consider going into the creative industries as a career. All too often, the creative industries have almost become a kind of hereditary industry, because someone can only afford to start in them by taking an unpaid post for a year or two, which is paid for by the bank of mum and dad, or if someone has a parent or another family member who has worked in that creative industry. We need to change that situation completely, so that the full talent of the whole of the UK is embraced.

Finally, we need to ensure that the product of the creative industries is accessible to all, which is about people being able to go to the theatre, going to live art events, see art in their streets and having architecture in their city that is beautiful, and which lifts and inspires. That is the ambition that we have as a Government, and Stoke is beautifully exemplifying it in its crucible.

Question put and agreed to.