Grassroots Sporting Fixtures and Facilities

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Monday 11th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Morgan of Cotes]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to permit (1) the resumption of grassroots sporting fixtures, and (2) the re-opening of sports facilities.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, sports and physical activity are vital for our physical and mental health, and important weapons in our fight against coronavirus. However, we have now had to take decisive action to enter a national lockdown, to save lives and to protect the NHS. We will make the return of grassroots sports and the reopening of facilities an immediate priority as soon as it is safe to do so.

[Baroness Morgan of Cotes (Con) [V]]

I thank my noble friend for her Answer; we understand the public health crisis that is upon us. Research for Sport England demonstrates the many positives of community sport and a more active lifestyle. As my noble friend said, we need people to be able to build resilience to Covid, and to tackle longer-term challenges relating to obesity and mental health. Sport and an active lifestyle do that. Can the Minister say when, in England, sports such as golf and tennis, which enable social distancing, as well as outdoor activities for children under 12 —still allowed in Scotland—will be prioritised for reopening?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

As my noble friend knows, I cannot give her an exact date on which those sports will reopen, but in recognition of the importance of physical activity, outdoor exercise within households, or with one other person from another household or your support bubble, is still permitted once a day in your local area. That obviously includes things such as walking, running, swimming and cycling.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, picking up the theme of the Question from the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, before the pandemic, 20% of children aged between 10 and 11 were obese, with a further 14% overweight, and only 46% of children and young people were meeting the recommended level of physical activity. The CEO of ukactive has reported that during the previous lockdowns physical activity levels fell sharply and significantly. The Minister has said today that it is a priority to get these sports facilities open when they can, but is there also a concerted plan, with resources, to boost and increase physical activity among young people?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Lord is right to highlight the importance of physical activity among young people. We are grateful for all the action of Sport England and others to encourage that, both at the moment and, I am sure, well into the future. The noble Lord may be pleased to hear that, last week, specific clarification was made about the status of youth workers, many of whom will be carrying out sporting activities with particularly vulnerable young people; they have been confirmed as key workers.

[Lord O'Shaughnessy (Con)]

My Lords, I want to carry on the theme of grass-roots sport for schoolchildren. I live in London and when we were in tier 4, before the national lockdown, guidance went out from the department about what sort of activities could continue, but it caused great confusion at the local level. One local rugby club was open and another was not, and the football club was not sure what to do. Given that this patchwork of provision cannot be sustained if we are to get young people exercising after the lockdown, I encourage my noble friend’s department to give much more direct guidance about what can be done, so that we see that provision come back at the earliest possible opportunity.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for highlighting those specific examples. If he can share more such examples with me and with officials, we can make every effort to ensure that there is clarity, so that when we do bring back grass-roots sport, the maximum number of children and adults can benefit.

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that it is not only children but young adults and middle-aged people who are the backbone of amateur sport? We must ensure that these people are given some encouragement and we must assist the governing bodies in ensuring that they know that they can get back to training to play that sport. Habits have been broken by people not being able to take that up and other habits have come in their place. There must be a coherent effort to keep a sufficient core to allow these activities to continue.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Lord is right. My honourable friend the Minister for Sport has been very clear in his statements about valuing the role of just the people who the noble Lord refers to.

[Lord Hayward (Con) [V]]

My Lords, following on from my noble friend Lady Morgan’s Question, given the need for social distancing, minimising sporting physical effort and protecting mental health, can my noble friend clarify why angling and cycling are acceptable as outdoor pastimes but golf is not?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Lord is not alone in his concerns about golf. He will be aware that a petition on that subject will be debated in the other place shortly. However, the answer is that, in the interests of public safety, we are allowing those activities which take place on public rather than private land.

[Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I declare an interest as chair of ukactive. While grass-roots sport and fixtures are vitally important, what provisions have Her Majesty’s Government made for opening up other leisure provisions which are so important for the long-term health of our nation?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

As the noble Baroness knows, my colleagues within the department are constantly in conversation with other parts of the sport and leisure sector. We announced a £100 million support package for local authority leisure centres and continue to work on plans in that area.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, competitive sport below the elite level faces continued disruption due to the current lockdown, so given the evidence that other noble Lords have referred to—that earlier lockdowns led to a falling off of participation in sports—what plans have the Government got to develop a national sports recovery plan? Will the Minister commit to ensuring early consultation with all the relevant sports organisations in developing a recovery plan, so that we can get our nation playing again? Will the Government look at financial support, further to the winter survival package which was announced prior to Christmas, covering sports affected by the ban on spectators?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I can only agree with the noble Lord about the importance of keeping our nation active and those involved in sport having a chance to continue to do so. That is why we have kept those restricted options open, as I referred to already, on public land, which has not been the case in some other areas. Obviously, there are initiatives such as Join the Movement from Sport England. I reassure the noble Lord that we are in constant consultation with the key governing bodies about the future of sport and the funding required.

[Baroness Uddin (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, sport is a lifeline of physical activities and mental well-being in areas where there is endemic housing overcrowding. I am therefore delighted that the Government are recognising youth workers as essential workers, because they have a vital role. I commend to the Minister and the House the work of London Tigers, under the leadership of Mesba Ahmed and Polly Islam, who have played an outstanding role in Tower Hamlets and elsewhere. Will the Minister look at their work and see the outstanding example they have set and perhaps consider it applicable elsewhere in grass-roots level community sports?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I would be delighted to look at their work. We are keen that everyone in this country has an opportunity to play and to enjoy sport.

[Lord Jones of Cheltenham (LD) [V]]

Are the Government aware of the impact that the pandemic has had on grass-roots cricket? I declare an interest as president of Overbury Cricket Club, which has followed all the rules and, as a result, lost considerable income from cancelled fundraising events. To conserve this delightful and historic tradition, will the Minister look at ways of providing financial support to help local cricket clubs survive, particularly those in villages, where they are often one of the focal points of the local community?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

We share the noble Lord’s concern about local grass-roots organisations such as cricket clubs, but we have already provided considerable support across the economy and to those with charitable status.

Gambling

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Thursday 7th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, Public Health England has undertaken a review of evidence on the public health harms relating to gambling and their social and economic burden. Publication has been delayed by Covid but is expected in the first part of this year. We have also launched our review of the Gambling Act. We are calling for evidence on how best to reduce harms and how we will recoup the cost to society.

[The Lord Bishop of St Albans [V]]

When the Minister announced the gambling review, he mentioned the tax receipts provided by the industry, but there was absolutely no reference to the social costs, particularly those associated with health services. We know only that, as part of the Government’s NHS mental health plan, £6 million has been committed to gambling-related harm by 2023. How much do the NHS problem gambling clinics cost the NHS, including the 14 new clinics due to be opened by 2023-24? If the Minister is unable to give these figures, would she write to me?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

To take the right reverend Prelate’s first point, I know he will acknowledge that it is very difficult to tease out the specific costs related to gambling harm, particularly on health and mental health. I will endeavour to dig out the updated figures from the mental health implementation plan for the 14 clinics, but I also note that this investment is in addition to the investment being made by GambleAware in specialist clinics in London and in the Northern Gambling Service.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con) [V]]

My Lords, when I was a Minister in the Home Office in charge of gambling some 25 years ago, the rule was that operators were not allowed to stimulate demand. They were prevented from advertising or doing anything that encouraged people to gamble. Now, people are being bombarded on television and on the internet with offers of free bets and goodness knows what else. Is it any wonder, with many people in lockdown and subject to financial strictures, that we have an increasing problem with gambling? In considering the review, will my noble friend consider going back to that situation where demand cannot be stimulated, which means that people who want to gamble can do so but that we do not draw people into the net, which has had catastrophic consequences?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

My noble friend makes important points. He will be aware that we are calling for evidence on the benefits and harms of advertising and sponsorship as part of the review. He will also be aware that there are already very strict rules around gambling advertising and promotions, particularly to those who have self-excluded and, importantly, to children.

[Viscount Colville of Culross (CB)]

The Royal Society for Public Health reported that not only loot boxes but skin betting created gambling problems for young gamers. Can the Minister assure the House that the Government’s call for evidence on loot boxes will also investigate skin betting and horizon scan for how the future monetisation of gaming can adversely affect young players?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

Our number one priority in the Gambling Act review, which I appreciate is broader than the noble Viscount’s question, is the protection of children and their access to gambling. The call for evidence on loot boxes closed at the end of November. We received tens of thousands of responses, and we will publish our response to that early this year. I will need to confirm the position on skins and write to the noble Viscount.

[Lord Sikka (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, an effective review of gambling legislation requires consideration of social costs, which are undoubtedly substantial. Does the Minister agree that the review would need to include at least the costs of the effects on immediate family, relationship breakdowns, domestic violence, depression, attempted suicides, crime, cost to the criminal justice system, loss of employment, job searches, health treatment, bankruptcies and productivity?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I absolutely agree that we need to understand the social costs, but the more important issue is that we reduce the scale of problem gambling, because however well we measure the social costs, we will not capture the impact on human beings and their families.

[Lord Foster of Bath (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I refer to my interests as set out in the register. Despite all the publicity surrounding the promised increased voluntary contributions from gambling companies, in this financial year they are providing just £5 million extra to fund the treatment and prevention of problem gambling, yet leading charities and academics, the Advisory Board for Safer Gambling, your Lordships’ Committee on gambling, and even some gambling companies, are calling for a statutory rather than voluntary levy as a fair, robust and sustainable way forward. When will the Government accept this, and, recognising that change can be made without primary legislation, act?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

As the noble Lord is aware, the review will look at all options for funding this area. The Government are open to alternative funding mechanisms, but it is only fair to acknowledge that the five major gambling companies have committed to an extra £100 million over four years.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, gambling legislation is a strange mixture of voluntary codes and inadequate self-regulation of advertising, all supervised by a regulator recently accused of needing to “up its game”. Can the Minister confirm that the long-awaited review will consider imposing a duty of care on operators, as the Government are doing regarding online harms?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

Unfortunately I cannot confirm that to the noble Lord today, but we are inviting evidence on the effectiveness of the regulatory regime and of what reduces problem gambling. The noble Lord shakes his head, but we do not want to pre-empt the outcome of the review. We would welcome him contributing the evidence he has, which we would consider carefully.

[Lord Smith of Hindhead (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my interests as set out in the register. The unregulated and at times unscrupulous ways in which some online and social media tipsters and affiliates operate may lead young and impressionable people to gamble in a potentially excessive way. As such, would the Minister agree that tipsters and affiliates should be licensed?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for his question. He is right, and although in practice some affiliates have been fined by the Gambling Commission, many act irresponsibly, and that will be within the scope of the review.

[Lord Curry of Kirkharle (CB) [V]]

My Lords, the Minister’s response on this topic has been encouraging, but does she accept that it is highly likely that gambling, particularly among children, has increased during lockdown? Can she request that the assumptions in the delayed report be revisited to ensure that it is an accurate assessment of the current problem?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Lord is right to raise the issue of gambling during lockdown. The evidence of an increase is not as clear-cut as he suggests. We are concerned and have taken very prompt action, including requiring operators to intervene in online gambling sessions lasting more than an hour, and increasing affordability checks.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, problem gambling disproportionately affects vulnerable groups, exacerbates social inequalities and imposes large economic costs on society. Back in 2017, the Gambling Commission described it as a public health concern. Does the Minister agree that if problem gambling is to be taken seriously as a public health issue, policy responsibility for prevention and treatment should primarily lie with the Department of Health and Social Care and not the DCMS, a department described by the Public Accounts Committee as both slow and weak on this subject?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

We do not see ourselves as, and nor are the officials working in this area, slow or weak. As the noble Lord knows, the Department of Health and Social Care is responsible for the Government’s addiction strategy across all forms of addition. He will be aware of the comorbidity between different forms of addiction, and there are other aspects of gambling. We know that the vast majority of people who gamble do not experience harm, and that is the balance the department is trying to strike: to reduce the harm, and to allow those who gamble safely to do so.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall) (Lab)]

My Lords, I am afraid that we have once again got to the end of time before we got to the end of the speakers’ list. We now come to the fourth Oral Question.

Online Harms Consultation

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Wednesday 16th December 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, over three years have elapsed and three Secretaries of State have come and gone since the Green Paper, in the face of a rising tide of online harms, not least during the Covid period, as Ofcom has charted. On these Benches, therefore, we welcome the set of concrete proposals we finally have to tackle online harms through a duty of care. We welcome the proposal for pre-legislative scrutiny, but I hope that there is a clear and early timetable for this to take place.

As regards the ambit of the duty of care, children are of course the first priority in prevention of harm, but it is clear that social media companies have failed to tackle the spread of fake news and misinformation on their platforms. I hope that the eventual definition in the secondary legislation includes a wide range of harmful content such as deep fakes, Holocaust denial and anti-Semitism, and misinformation such as anti-vax and QAnon conspiracy theories.

I am heartened too by the Government’s plans to consider criminalising the encouragement of self-harm. I welcome the commitment to keeping a balance with freedom of expression, but surely the below-the-line exemption proposed should depend on the news publisher being Leveson-compliant in how it is regulated. I think I welcome the way that the major impact of the duty of care will fall on big-tech platforms with the greatest reach, but we on these Benches will want to kick the tyres hard on the definition, threshold and duties of category 2 to make sure that this does not become a licence to propagate serious misinformation by some smaller platforms and networks.

I welcome the confirmation that Ofcom will be the regulator, but the key to success in preventing online harms will be whether Ofcom has teeth. Platforms will need to demonstrate how they have reduced the “reasonably foreseeable” risk of harm occurring from the design of their services. In mitigating the risk of “legal but harmful content”, this comes down to the way in which platforms facilitate and even encourage the sharing of extreme or sensationalist content designed to cause harm. As many excellent bodies such as Reset, Avaaz and Carnegie UK have pointed out—as the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, said, the latter is the begetter of the duty of care proposal—this means having the power of compulsory audit. Inspection of the algorithms that drive traffic on social media is crucial.

Will Ofcom be able to make a direction to amend a recommender algorithm, how a “like” function operates and how content is promoted? Will it be able to inspect the data by which the algorithm trains and operates? Will Ofcom be able to insist that platforms can establish the identity of a user and address the issue of fake accounts, or that paid content is labelled? Will it be able to require platforms to issue fact-checked corrections to scientifically inaccurate posts? Will Ofcom work hand in hand with the Internet Watch Foundation? International co-ordination will be vital.

Ofcom will also need to work closely with the CMA if the Government are to protect vulnerable victims of online scams, fraud, and fake and misleading online reviews, if they are explicitly excluded from this legislation. Ofcom will need to work with the ASA to regulate harmful online advertising, as well. It will also need to work with the Gambling Commission on the harms of online black-market gambling, as was highlighted yesterday by my noble friend Lord Foster.

How will this new duty of care mesh with compliance with the age-appropriate design code, regulated by the ICO? As the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, has mentioned, the one major fudge in the response is on age verification. The proposals do not meet the objectives of the original Part 3 of the Digital Economy Act. We were promised action when the response arrived, but we have a much watered-down proposal. Pornography is increasingly available and accessible to young people on more sites than just those with user-generated content. How do the Government propose to tackle this ever more pressing problem? There are many other areas that we will want to examine in the pre-legislative process and when the Bill comes to this House.

As my honourable friend Jamie Stone pointed out in the Commons yesterday, a crucial component of minimising risk online is education. Schools need to educate children about how to use social media responsibly. What commitment do the Government have to online media education? When will the strategy appear and what resources will be devoted to it?

These are some of the yet unanswered questions before the draft legislation arrives, but I hope that the Government commit to a full debate early in the new year so that some of these issues can be unpacked at the same time as the pre-legislative scrutiny process starts.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

I thank both noble Lords for welcoming this full response to the consultation. I am happy to echo them both in their thanks, in particular to Carnegie UK and the important work it has done. We hope very much that the Bill will bring us into an age of accountability for big tech.

In response to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, what is illegal in the real world should indeed be illegal in the digital world. This Bill, when it comes, will help us move towards that. He raised the question about the focus on individuals. Obviously, the level of harm—in terms of the more individuals who are impacted—will be relevant to the sanctions that Ofcom can enforce. But he also raised a wider and very important point about trust in our institutions; clearly, social media and big tech platforms are institutions where the level of trust has been tremendously eroded in recent years. We want to restore that, so that what the big tech platforms say they will do is actually what happens in practice.

Both noble Lords asked about the category 1 companies, how those are defined and whether we will miss important actors as a result of that definition. Category 1 businesses will be based on size of audience but also on the functionality that they offer. For example, the ability to share content widely or to contact users anonymously, which are obviously higher-risk characteristics, could put a platform with a smaller audience into that category 1. Ofcom will publish the thresholds for these factors, assess companies against those thresholds and then publish a list of them. To be clear, all companies working in this area with user-generated content have to tackle all illegal content, and they have to protect children in relation to legal but harmful content. We are building safety by design into our approach from the get-go.

The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, asked about criminal liability; we are not shying away from it. Indeed, the powers to introduce criminal liability for directors are, as he knows, being included in the Bill and can be introduced via secondary legislation. We would just rather give the technology companies a chance to get their house in order. The significant fines that can be levied—up to 10% of the turnover of the parent company or £18,000, whichever is higher—are obviously, for the larger tech companies, very substantial sums of money. We think that those fines will help to focus their minds.

The noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, talked about legal but harmful content. This is a very important and delicate area. We need to protect freedom of expression; we cannot dictate that legal content should automatically be taken down. That is why we agree with him that a duty of care is the right way forward. He questioned whether this would be sufficient to protect children. Our aim, and our number one priority, throughout this is clearly the protection of children.

The noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, asked a number of questions about Ofcom. I might not have time to answer them all now, but we believe that the Bill will give Ofcom the tools it needs to understand how to address the harms that need addressing through transparency reports, and to take action if needed. Ofcom will have extensive powers in order to achieve this. He also mentioned international co-ordination. We are clearly very open to working with other countries and regulators and are keen to do so.

Both noble Lords questioned whether the shift from age verification to age assurance is in some way a step backwards. We really do not believe that this is the case. We think that when the Bill comes, its scope will be very broad. We expect companies to use age-assurance or age-verification technologies to prevent children accessing services that pose the highest risk of harm to them, such as online pornography. The legislation will not mandate the use of specific technological approaches because we want it to be future-proofed. The emphasis will be on the duty of care and the undiluted responsibility of the tech companies to provide sufficient protection to children. We are therefore tech neutral in our approach, but we expect the regulator to be extremely robust towards those sites that pose the highest risk of harm to children.

The noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, also asked about our media literacy strategy, which we are working on at the moment.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Faulkner of Worcester) (Lab)]

My Lords, we now come to the 20 minutes allocated to Back-Bench questions. I urge noble Lords who wish to participate to keep their questions short, so that we can get in as many of the 16 who have asked to participate as possible.

[Baroness Sanderson of Welton (Con)]

My Lords, in clamping down on anonymous abuse online, what can be done to ensure those who need anonymity, such as victims of domestic or sexual abuse, can still have the protection of seeking help anonymously?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for her question. We do not intend to ban anonymity online for the very group who she talks about, or for whistleblowers and others, as this would interfere with their safety, privacy and freedom of expression. Our approach is to make sure that platforms tackle abuse online, including anonymous abuse. This is a very challenging area and we are aware that many people in public life, for example, suffer extensive anonymous abuse. It is an area that we will keep under review, but without sacrificing in any way the safety of those who need anonymity to be present online.

[Baroness Kidron (CB) [V]]

My Lords, the arrival of the Government’s response is most welcome, particularly its focus on young people. However, its focus on user-generated content, company size and the large number of exceptions move it away from the earlier and more flexible focus on assessing risk and preventing harm wherever it might be found. Concerningly, it leaves the system open to being gamed as companies redesign themselves to be out of scope rather than to prevent harm. How do the Government intend to tackle problems of explicit and violent content, which is widely reported on remote learning platforms, if edtech is out of scope? How do they intend to limit access to commercial porn sites that try to avoid regulation by not having user-generated content? Can she confirm that any company that introduces strangers who are adults to children via automated friend suggestions will be brought into scope, whatever the nature or size of the service?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness raises important points. I stress that we really believe that we have broadened the scope of this legislation substantially from what was previously proposed. The new regime will capture the most-visited pornography sites and pornography on social media, so we think that the vast majority of sites on which children might be exposed to pornography will be within the scope of the legislation.

In relation to the noble Baroness’s specific points, I say that the situation with learning platforms has obviously changed dramatically this year, with Covid and the use and extent of remote learning. The principle that we were following was that there were already safeguarding and regulatory regimes in place within education, but we will obviously keep that dialogue open. On commercial pornography sites that do not host user-generated content, in most cases the user-generated and commercial content—if I can call it that—are closely intertwined, as the noble Baroness knows, so measures such as age verification or age assurance would be in place on those sites that would prevent underage access.

In relation to the noble Baroness’s final point, yes, those sites would be in the scope of the Bill, both because of the nature of the user interaction and because those services would need to assess the likelihood of children accessing them and therefore to have appropriate safeguards in place.

[The Lord Bishop of Oxford [V]]

My Lords, I declare my interests, particularly my membership as a board member of the Centre for Data Ethics and Innovation. I sincerely congratulate the Government and other agencies such as the Carnegie UK Trust for these proposals, the way in which they have been developed and their substance. They have a very simple ethical code at their heart: if something is illegal or harmful offline, it should be illegal and considered harmful online. The protection of children is paramount; refinements will be needed, but the main direction is right. The proposals break new ground. I only hope that there will be a due sense of urgency as they are taken forward. I understand the need to focus the legislation, but given the decision to rule fraud and certain other areas out of scope—which will no doubt continue to be debated—when will we see an overall digital strategy so that we can see this Bill as part of a whole?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

Part of the reason for defining the scope in a way that excludes, for example, fraud is that it is not typically user-generated content; it is also the result of the point that the right reverend Prelate makes about speed of implementation, which is obviously paramount. The Government have recently announced a new national data strategy, which I am happy to share with him if he has not already seen it.

[Lord Davies of Gower (Con)]

I also congratulate the Government on bringing forward this White Paper. It is time that those who generate such depravity and abuse of children are challenged. It is an issue in which I have a particular interest because during the 2017 general election campaign, when I fought to retain my parliamentary seat, together with my family I was subjected to a torrent of abuse online from anonymous contributors. Try as I might, I was unable to obtain the assistance of the leading social media companies to take action, so I have a simple question. In the response to the White, Paper, the Government talk of

“setting codes of practice, establishing a transparency, trust and accountability framework and requiring … companies to have effective and accessible mechanisms for users to report concerns”.

If this process is to be effectively policed, what additional resources will be provided to the regulator to enable an effective investigative and prosecuting regime to enforce against not just the social media companies but also the perpetrators? What oversight will there be to ensure that companies are not marking their own homework?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

We are absolutely committed to the era of “marking their own homework” being over. We will obviously make sure that Ofcom, in particular, is sufficiently resourced in terms of capacity for the incredibly important task that it faces. Where Ofcom needs specific expertise—for example, a skilled person’s report—we are committed to that being made available.

[Baroness Benjamin (LD)]

My Lords, today I was contacted by a very concerned mother, who asked me two questions which I would like to put to the Minister. First, why have the Government decided to seek to protect children only from user-generated pornography when, back in 2015, they committed to stop children’s exposure to harmful sexual content online by requiring age verification to access all sites containing pornographic material? Secondly, how will the Government protect children from user-generated pornography through fines on sites based abroad, when they are not subject to our law enforcement? I plead with the Government, in the interim, to implement Part 3 of the Digital Economy Act. This would protect children from pornographic sites based outside the UK, through its blocking provision, until the proposed watered-down version of age assurance becomes law, which could be in two to five years.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I understand the concerns raised by the noble Baroness and by the mother to whom she has spoken. There are not many parents in the land who have not had some of her concerns. We are focusing on user-generated content because we believe that will capture the vast majority of pornographic and inappropriate behaviour that children witness. However, as I said in response to an earlier question, we will keep it under review. Our ambition is to keep children safe. Ofcom has business disruption and ISP blocking within its powers, which would prevent children in this country seeing international content.

[Viscount Colville of Culross (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I too welcome the Government’s White Paper. However, I have two concerns. The first is that the proposed regime of duty of care puts the onus of responsibility for dealing with legal but harmful content on the platforms alone. There seem to be few sanctions on the individual user who creates the harmful content. Surely the new legislation should contain a requirement for the platform’s terms and conditions to contain a regime for it to suspend serial creators of harmful content. My other concern is that, once the platforms have deleted material, it disappears for ever. As a result, information from posts which are found to be criminal, once deleted, is subsequently unavailable for investigators and police who need to access crucial evidence to prosecute crimes. Will the Minister ensure that the legislation includes a requirement for a safe, secure, digital area to be created by platforms where illegal, deleted material can be stored for future legal use?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

In response to the noble Viscount’s second point, I will definitely take back to the department his suggestion about the retention of illegal content. He made a valid point about the duty of care, but companies will need to set out in their terms and conditions what the categories of content are and what acceptable behaviour is on their site. The regulator will expect them to take action against just the sort of people to whom the noble Viscount refers.

[Baroness Morgan of Cotes (Con) [V]]

My Lords, it was very welcome to see the Government’s response published yesterday, and I offer my congratulations to my noble friend and her fellow Ministers for doing so when so much else is going on. The misinformation about the Covid vaccine demonstrates just why these proposals need to be put into law as soon as possible. How soon will the Bill be ready to be published? Will we see it early in the new year? Will the draft secondary legislation be published alongside the draft Bill, and how long will both Houses and the public have for pre-legislative scrutiny?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The legislation will be ready next year. We will make final decisions on legislative timings nearer the time, but I think that my noble friend will have heard that the Secretary of State is minded to carry out pre-legislative scrutiny. I appreciate that some time has been taken on this. As my noble friend knows, we have taken a deliberately consultative approach on the Bill but are now working at pace to implement it.

[Lord McNally (LD) [V]]

[Inaudible.]

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

My noble friend makes important points. Of course, we are co-operating with all the different three-letter acronyms that he mentioned and maybe many more—who knows? In all seriousness, there is also a balance to be struck in the delivery of this important legislation.

[Baroness Grender (LD)]

My Lords, this is a welcome move, if achingly slow. I have just a couple of questions. First, in Annexe A, companies are expected to assess themselves on whether their service is likely to be accessed by children. What level of confidence does the Minister have that companies will reveal themselves as having access to children? For instance, WhatsApp has changed its age limit twice since 2018. Is she confident that they will be honest about the number of children under the ages of 16 or 13 using their services? Does she accept that the decision to exempt online news organisations leaves open a back door to online harm? Under these proposals, the Daily Mail is still able to share the video of the Christchurch mosque attack, which Google and Facebook are not. Will she take a look at that issue?

I am aware that if my noble friend Lord McNally were asking a question right now, he would suggest that the pre-legislative scrutiny should be done by a Joint Committee. My plea on that—I declare an interest as a member of one of the relevant committees that will scrutinise this—is that speed is of the essence. Unless we are able to scrutinise swiftly, we leave many vulnerable to the internet. This has been too long in the making.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

On the noble Baroness’s first point, I understand why she asks about it and we have given the matter careful consideration. Platforms will need to prove that children are not accessing their content by sharing any existing age verification or assurance information, by reviewing the data on their users. They will need to evidence that in a robust way to satisfy Ofcom. I shall take back the point regarding the Christchurch video. I know that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State talked about how he valued the expertise of both Houses, so I hope that is a warm note regarding scrutiny.

[Lord McColl of Dulwich (Con) [V]]

Because of its focus on user-generated content, it is quite clear that the online harms Bill greatly weakens the protection afforded to children in relation to assessing pornographic websites. This House determined that they should be provided through Part 3 of the Digital Economy Act, as the noble Baroness, Lady Benjamin, mentioned. Who has pressed the Government not to implement Part 3? What should I tell a concerned father who contacted me this morning, saying, “The Government promised to protect children from pornographic websites, not just user-generated content on pornographic websites”?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I understand my noble friend’s concern but, as I said to the noble Baroness, Lady Benjamin, the vast majority of pornographic content that children come across is on social media rather than online pornography sites, and those online sites are often intertwined with user-generated content. So we are confident that the vast majority of content will not be accessible to children.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord McNally (LD) [V]]

My Lords, not guilty, but happy to get in. Earlier this year, the noble Lord, Lord Puttnam, chaired a committee of this House which produced the report Digital Technology and the Resurrection of Trust, about the damage caused to our political and democratic system by online harm. The Government are choosing to ignore this. Does that not leave a massive stable door in the legislation? Will she assure me that the noble Lord, Lord Puttnam, will be able to give evidence to pre-legislative scrutiny to make the case for action in this area?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The issue of political and democratic trust is obviously incredibly important. As I mentioned, trust has been severely eroded by social media companies and other platforms. By restoring that trust and managing the content that could be physically or psychologically harmful, we will help to narrow that gap.

[Lord Morrow (DUP)]

Do the Government really believe that this House, which passed Part 3 of the Digital Economy Act 2017 to give effect to the Conservative manifesto commitment of 2015, would accept the much weaker proposal set out by the Government yesterday for protecting children from accessing pornographic websites? The Government seem to think that, because they now propose to do things to address other online harms, including access to pornography on Twitter, we would somehow be prepared to overlook the fact that they propose putting children in a more vulnerable position with respect to their protection from pornographic websites. I urge the Government to adjust their course and ensure that the protections in their online harms Bill are just as robust as those in Part 3 of the Digital Economy Act, and to implement Part 3 in the interim so that children can be protected while we wait for the online harms Act.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I shall avoid repeating what I have said already on this issue. The focus in the Bill will put the responsibility on the platforms to have strong safety measures to protect children from accessing pornographic and other inappropriate content. If they do not do that, parents and children can report them and Ofcom will take enforcement action.

Covid-19: Arts Sector

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Tuesday 15th December 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Black of Brentwood (Con)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper and declare my interest as chairman of the Royal College of Music.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government recognise the significant challenge that the current pandemic poses to our arts sector and to the many individuals, including freelances, working across it. We are working very hard to help freelancers in those sectors access support, including through the self-employment income support scheme and funding from Arts Council England.

[Lord Black of Brentwood (Con)]

My Lords, the Covid emergency has been a catastrophe for music and other parts of the creative economy, and in particular for the freelancers who make up 72% of those working in the performing and visual arts. Nearly four in five of them earn less than £30,000 per year and many are having to rely on universal credit. Can my noble friend tell us what steps are being taken to ensure that the support that the Government are giving to music and the arts, including the £165 million recently announced, will directly benefit freelancers, and when will freelancers have the security of a revised road map to return to live performances once restrictions are eased?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The Government recognise the impact of the pandemic on this group, which my noble friend has spoken of so clearly, and on our wider and very brilliant arts and creative sector. Our focus is on keeping venues going financially and getting them open. We estimate that 12.5% of the business costs of culture recovery fund recipients will go to freelancers, artists and casual events staff. Of course, not all the fund is yet committed and we are keeping all options under review. In relation to the second part of the noble Lord’s question, we absolutely understand the importance of a reopening date for planning. My honourable friend the Minister for Culture recently met the organisers of a number of festivals, including Edinburgh and the Isle of Wight, and as soon as we can announce more on that, we will.

[The Lord Bishop of Southwark [V]]

My Lords, will the Minister please comment on what is being done to support the huge supply chain of talent, materials and suppliers for live events and performances? As the Minister is doubtless aware, there are decades of expertise within these sectors, which also support film production, television and festivals—everything from catering to lighting, scenery, special effects, equipment hire, publicity and venue hire. These are all in danger of being wiped out and will be extremely difficult to re-establish if businesses and freelancers are not supported at this stage.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The right reverend Prelate is absolutely right. The figures that I just gave to my noble friend Lord Black in relation to culture recovery fund recipients do not include the supply chain, where we think significant numbers of contracted employees will also benefit. We are very aware of these issues and share the right reverend Prelate’s concerns.

[Lord Flight (Con)]

My Lords, freelance workers in the arts sector have been among the worst hit by the Covid-19 pandemic, with all booked engagements simply cancelled with no remuneration. While the third grant to unemployed arts workers was indeed provided at the end of November, individuals who managed to finance themselves during the first grant and so did not need the grant at that time are unfortunately ineligible for third grants. Will the Government please install their eligibility? The recent measures mean that there will be no live performances in the London area, and the Greater London area theatres do not have the financial resources to put on live performances and will need help when government rules permit live performances.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The Government share my noble friend’s sadness at the impact of the recent decisions on London theatres but, obviously, that decision was taken on public health grounds. Under the new tiers that came into force recently, live performances are permitted in Covid-secure indoor venues in tiers 1 and 2. In relation to those self-employed people who did not access finance in the first two phases, they are not necessarily excluded from the third grant if their business has been badly impacted by Covid-19.

[Viscount Colville of Culross (CB) [V]]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Black of Brentwood, talked about the 100,000 freelancers in the creative industry who fall outside the SEISS. I am especially concerned about new graduates who have been recruited into these industries. Those in last year’s intake to the industries were not covered and they have now been joined by another year’s intake who are similarly not covered. Do the Government have any specific plans to help these people?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I can reassure the noble Viscount that we are looking in detail, with HMRC and the Treasury, at a range of reasons why self-employed people may be ineligible. That work is under way and I am assuming that graduates form part of it.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I refer the House to my interests in the register. Has the noble Baroness had time to read the most recent report from the House of Lords Economic Affairs Committee, Employment and COVID-19? It has some pretty trenchant things to say about the Government’s treatment of freelancers. In one example, it says that the Government have not taken action “to better target” the SEISS

“at those most affected by the pandemic, despite having had months to reform the scheme.”

Reference to the culture recovery fund will not quite do, as important as that is. Highly skilled freelancers are leaving the arts now and, as the noble Viscount, Lord Colville, has just said, newly trained young people who hope to come in—especially those from under- represented backgrounds—are thinking again, such is the vulnerability of the sector. These are the performers, technicians, craftspeople and also the teachers of the future. How can the Government justify this waste of talent?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The Government have not been wasting their time. We have announced the largest support package for the cultural sector of £1.5 billion, which we think will sustain the cultural ecosystem, allow venues to reopen and protect jobs. However, as I said to the noble Viscount, Lord Colville, we are working closely to understand where there are barriers to freelancers accessing support.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)]

We are making slow progress on this Question. I call the noble Baroness, Lady Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury.

[Baroness Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury (LD) [V]]

My Lords, the allocation last week of more from the culture recovery fund was received with relief by many venues, but performing arts production is not a tap that you can just turn on and off. The news yesterday that London is going into tier 3, as mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Flight, has caused great anxiety. Can the Minister confirm that cultural venues will be eligible to receive tier 3 local restrictions support grant compensation?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

My understanding is that that is the case, but I will write and confirm to the noble Baroness if that is incorrect.

[Baroness Warsi (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I draw the House’s attention to my relevant entries in the register of interests. My noble friend will be familiar with the individuals emergency resilience programme set up by the Northern Ireland Executive for those working in the creative industries, including freelancers, and the self-employed hardship fund established by the Scottish Government. These are very targeted funds, so what similar or additional plans have been put in place in England and Wales in response to London’s tier 3 reclassification this week, specifically to assist individual artists or freelancers in this targeted way?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The announcement on the London decision happened only yesterday, so I hope that my noble friend will give us a moment to work that through. However, Arts Council England has made over £26 million in awards to over 8,200 individuals through non-CRF funds this year, including £17.1 million through the emergency response fund for individuals.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, as my noble friend Lady McIntosh says, the current schemes have clearly not worked to support freelancers. Will the Minister please accept that and has she read the Museum Freelance report, which says that fewer than half its respondents have even been able to access government income, let alone survive over this period? What is she going to do about it?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

We would accept that some freelancers have either believed that they are not eligible for these schemes or are not eligible. But we have announced considerable funding, and £378 million was claimed by freelancers in the arts, entertainment and recreation sector under phases 1 and 2 of the scheme.

[Lord Aberdare (CB)]

With the Covid-19 rules changing almost on a weekly basis, many music and culture venues which took the Government at their word and tried to reopen in a socially distanced way between lockdowns have now found themselves having to refund tickets already sold because of a reduction in the audience numbers allowed, even before going into tier 3. What specific plans do the Government have to help venues in this position, for example in the form of an indemnity scheme so that they are able to insure against this kind of eventuality?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The Government recognise the tremendous efforts that many venues have gone to and we have a venues steering group, which is working through a number of these issues. We are looking at options around insurance and indemnity and are very happy to have conversations with the Treasury about this, but we need evidence that that is the only barrier to reopening.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed. We now come to the second Oral Question.

Gambling and Lotteries

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Monday 14th December 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foster of Bath (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I too thank the Minister for providing the opportunity to debate this Statement.

Since serving on the Commons committee that considered the Gambling Act 2005, I have seen the huge growth in gambling in this country brought about by that Act and by technological change, not least with the advent of the smartphone, enabling anyone to have 24/7 access to a mini-casino in their pocket, with high-speed games designed to keep people playing. With its spread throughout sport and television, children are seeing gambling as part of everyday life. The gambling industry and its profits have grown exponentially but, most worryingly, 60% of those profits are coming from just 5% of gamblers—those likely to be experiencing harm.

More recently, serving on the Lords committee on gambling, I received very clear evidence of the urgent need for action—not least that described in the committee’s 66 recommendations—from a statutory smart levy on the industry and a statutory duty of care to much stronger regulation of advertising and controls on affordability. Those recommendations, many of which do not need primary legislation, have widespread support in your Lordships’ House, as demonstrated by the nearly 150 Peers who have joined Peers for Gambling Reform, which I have the honour to chair and which seeks early implementation of those recommendations, so that those who wish to gamble can do so safely.

The urgency is illustrated by the figures. There are nearly half a million problem gamblers—probably more—including over 60,000 11 to 16 year-olds, with each problem gambler impacting the lives of family, friends and local communities, and, most tragically, on average, one gambling-related suicide every day.

So although I welcome the review, will the Minister assure me that in those areas where overwhelming evidence for change exists, the Government will take action immediately? Sadly, I was not confident about this last week. I asked the Minister what further evidence the Government need to establish a gambling ombudsman. Despite the overwhelming evidence in the Lords report, she replied:

“The Government continue to have an open mind about the role of an ombudsman.”—[Official Report, 9/12/20; col. 1234.]


I hope that she will she reconsider. However, I welcome the work that has been done on VIP schemes and banning credit card gambling, as well as the work in relation to loot boxes and affordability. Can the Minister update us on progress and assure us that, where action can be taken quickly without waiting for the conclusion of the review, it will happen?

Gambling harm is a public health issue, and like the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, I was disappointed to see no formal role for the Department of Health and Social Care in this review. Will the Minister assure me that the review will take a public health approach and that mechanisms are in place to ensure that DHSC participates fully? The threat of major reform has led the industry to make some welcome, albeit limited, changes, but we are dealing with a vast, multinational industry that is obliged to protect its profits. Does the Minister agree that this review must be evidenced-based and avoid undue influence by industry lobbyists—lobbyists arguing, for example, that reform should be muted for fear of seepage to the black market? Of course we should look to measures to tackle the black market through payment processors and domain blocking, but does she agree with the Gambling Commission that the black market is not a significant issue and should not be used to drive down standards locally? Is she aware that some operators in this country are themselves operating in black or grey markets abroad? Will the Minister ask the regulator to look into this matter urgently?

Last week, I met the mother and the fiancée of Chris Bruney, who tragically took his own life because of a gambling addiction at the age of just 25. Chris was a bright and vibrant young man with his whole life ahead of him. To my mind, there can be no more powerful illustration of the need to reform our outdated gambling laws. I urge the Government not to delay.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

I thank both noble Lords for their welcome of the Statement and our call for evidence. I would like to pick up where the noble Lord, Lord Foster, finished, on the all-too-often tragic impact gambling can have on people’s lives and the lives of their friends, families and, in particular, children. That is where our greatest priority in this review lies.

The noble Lord, Lord Bassam, talked about the Government’s response being both piecemeal and slow. I am a bit puzzled about how both can be true. We have aimed to be responsive and have made significant decisions in the last year to improve the safety of, and reduce the risk of harm for, gamblers, but we have now announced an extensive and broad call for evidence, which we hope will address some of the issues several of your Lordships have raised in recent months in this House.

The noble Lord, Lord Bassam, also raised the point about offshore gambling. I am happy to write to the noble Lord if I have misunderstood, but this was a point also raised by the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, last week. In 2014, Great Britain introduced one of the first point-of-consumption regimes for regulating gambling, which means that any gambling company, based anywhere in the world, that provides services to GB customers, must comply with the Gambling Commission licence conditions and pay remote gambling duties to the Exchequer.

I am afraid the connection broke up at one point in the comments from the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, so I think I missed one of his questions. I know both noble Lords were concerned about the Department of Health’s role. The noble Lord, Lord Foster, talked about the importance of a public health approach. Treatment is not directly in scope of the Act review; the focus is predominantly the regulation of gambling, particularly the powers of the Gambling Commission. However, the Department of Health remains absolutely committed to working on and improving treatment and integrating both NHS and third-sector provision in this field.

The noble Lord, Lord Bassam, apologised for a lack of festive cheer. I hope I can bring a little festive cheer, in that tomorrow my right honourable friend the Secretary of State will make a Statement in the other place about the online harms consultation. He will be able to address some of the other points on the timing of legislation. I hope we will take that Statement speedily after it is made in the other place.

The noble Lord, Lord Foster, talked about the risk to children and the number of children who have a gambling addiction or are problem gambling. As I said, the safety of children is our first priority in this review. I thank him and other noble Lords who sat on the committee for their 66 recommendations. He will have seen that the vast majority of these are in scope of the call for evidence. I assure him that we will not wait, as we have not waited already, to implement them.

The noble Lord, Lord Foster, said that there was overwhelming evidence for the appointment or creation of an ombudsman. Our starting point is that operators must be held accountable for their failings, and the review will look at the current system for redress. We will look at the pros and cons of different approaches and take a decision based on the evidence put forward. Again, I encourage all noble Lords and those in their networks to submit evidence.

Finally, I hope I can reassure the noble Lord that the review and the decisions taken from it will be based on evidence. He raised concerns about the power of lobbyists. Obviously, we have to look at all evidence fairly, but much evidence in this space is contested. We hope we will be able to resolve some of those contested areas and move forward with a gambling regime fit for the digital age.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Morris of Bolton) (Con)]

My Lords, we now come to the 20 minutes allocated for Back-Bench questions. I call the noble Lord, Lord Grade of Yarmouth.

[Lord Grade of Yarmouth (Con) [V]]

I thank my noble friend the Minister for answering questions on this very important Statement. I associate myself immediately with everything the noble Lord, Lord Foster, said. My great fear about the gambling review the Government are undertaking is that they are pinning it to a review of the 2005 Act. Of the House of Lords committee recommendations, which numbered more than 60, probably only three or four required legislation. I would like to hear from my noble friend the Minister that changes that can be made immediately will not have to await the lengthy passage through the legislative process in both Houses—consultation, White Paper, et cetera—before the Government act.

Neglect by previous members of the Gambling Commission and previous Governments has led us to a situation in which gambling is having toxic side-effects, resulting in suicides and misery, although a lot of us will have a flutter and enjoy it. My great fear is that the speed of action will not be met by the Government and that attaching it to the legislative review will slow things down. There is not a day to lose in fixing a sector in very serious disarray, causing untold misery.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for his remarks and his leadership of the committee in your Lordships’ House. He is, of course, absolutely right that legislation is not required to change a number of things and to make gambling safer, particularly for those people, including children, who may be vulnerable.

I hope that he takes some comfort from the speed and energy with which we have acted, including during this most difficult of years, when every department, including my own, has been under tremendous pressure. He will be aware that in the last 12 months we have banned gambling on credit cards and mandated participation in the national self-exclusion scheme, GAMSTOP. We have tightened restrictions on VIP schemes, banned reverse withdrawals and mandated increased monitoring and intervention during Covid. We have no intention of slowing down with that energy.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I am glad that the Government are tackling this head on, and I have seen evidence of it. I watch a lot of sport, so I end up watching a vast amount of advertising for gambling. That is a very worrying statement because, as we have just heard, it also applies to children. I am sure that the Government want children to watch cricket, rugby or football—whatever it is—rather than spending hours glued to gaming. I have also noticed that these ads are beginning to be much more vociferous about the dangers of gambling, and it would be churlish not to acknowledge that, but it is also a sign that gambling companies are worried.

Gambling may be fun at a minor level, as the noble Lord, Lord Grade, said, but it is very big business, with huge profits engendered for gambling companies. Surely it is impossible—and I know that the Minister would agree with this—to put into financial terms the damage done to families through addiction and suicide. Should we not be restricting the amount of advertising? Will the Government try to quantify the value of advertising to sport, television and the Exchequer and attempt to set it against the damage done by addiction? As I say once again, especially when families are reduced to absolute misery and sometimes to suicide, there is no way of putting a financial price on that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Lord is right that there is no way to put a financial price on the pain that some families have suffered. We have a responsibility to listen to those families, take their evidence incredibly seriously and give them a real voice. We are absolutely committed to doing that. As I mentioned in your Lordships’ House last week, the first meeting that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State had in preparing for this review was with a group of people with lived experience of gambling harm of different types. So we take that incredibly seriously.

Progress is being made on advertising gambling in relation to sport. The industry has introduced measures in the last 18 months, including the whistle-to-whistle ban, which has significantly reduced children’s exposure to sports betting advertising. We are taking, and will take, a very thorough look at this review and try to establish—and I mentioned areas that were contested—to what extent advertising is linked to problem and harmful gambling.

[The Lord Bishop of St Albans [V]]

My Lords, it is true that we cannot cost the human hurt and pain, but the Statement praised the tax receipts and employment benefits that come from the gambling industry but did not mention any of the financial costs of gambling-related harms. Will the Minister assure the House that, as part of the evidence-based approach, the review will include research into the cost of gambling-related harms—for example, for the 14 clinics dealing with gambling addictions, the cost of trials and imprisonment, the cost of JSA claims and the terrible cost of suicides—to ascertain whether the gambling industry is really a net contributor to the Treasury, as the Government claim?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The right reverend Prelate raises an important point. He will be aware that, next year, Public Health England will report on its evidence review into gambling-related harm. That will look at both financial and human aspects. The review being led by DCMS is looking specifically at ways of recouping the societal costs of gambling. Again, I urge the right reverend Prelate to share the evidence that he has on those costs in the broadest terms.

[Baroness Armstrong of Hill Top (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I thank the Government for their response to the Select Committee and for announcing the review. It is particularly important that the review looks at the impact of online gambling. We know that, far too often, the industry is at least one step ahead of the regulatory framework in devising temptation for gamblers. Those who are in deeper than they can afford are particularly vulnerable to such temptations. Can the Minister assure the House that the Government will bear down on this in the review and understand how the regulatory framework needs to interact with a constantly changing market on the internet? Will they pay attention to the increased activity of the many women who would not have dreamed of going into a betting shop but who now—in their misery, often—gamble online on their own and get into serious trouble? Will the Government make sure that they develop protections for the most vulnerable?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Baroness raises important points about online gambling, which is one of the fastest-growing areas of gambling. We are looking at the case for increased protections online, including in relation to stake limits. However, as I said in response to my noble friend Lord Grade, we are not waiting for the review to make online games safer, so the Gambling Commission will shortly publish its response to a consultation on a number of tighter controls on online product design which will aim to protect exactly those vulnerable groups to which the noble Baroness referred. She was also right to raise the issue of women gamblers, where we have much less evidence. We look forward to building a much more comprehensive picture and will aim to use that evidence to get the regulatory balance right.

[Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I declare an interest as a vice-chair of Peers for Gambling Reform. We tread a fine line between allowing people to spend their money freely and preventing them from the extremes of their actions on their health and well-being. We ban the advertising of smoking and smoking in public places to prevent health deterioration. We encourage healthy eating and exercise to curb obesity levels and diabetes, but we have a reluctance to ban advertising for gambling, despite the misery that the addiction can bring. Italy, Belgium and Spain have introduced bans, while Australia has introduced a ban on gambling advertising during live sporting events between 5 am and 8.30 pm. Would the Minister consider following this lead on banning advertising to protect the young and vulnerable from falling into addiction?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Baroness has raised serious issues and has made some interesting suggestions. To be fair, I think that the noble Baroness would agree that gambling advertising is already subject to very strict controls. It cannot be targeted at children and it cannot appear during TV programmes or on websites that are aimed primarily at children. In fact, the ASA is currently consulting on further tightening these rules to limit gambling ads that appeal to children and vulnerable people. Gambling advertisers online have to obey the same rules as offline, but as I have said, the point of this review is to get the most convincing evidence possible from which we can move forward.

[Lord Browne of Belmont (DUP) [V]]

My Lords, sadly, the prevalence figures for problem gambling in Northern Ireland are significantly worse than those for England. In this context, the exposure of people to gambling advertising raises significant additional concerns in the Province. Although aspects of responsibility for gambling are devolved, the subject of gambling advertising is addressed on a UK basis. Will the Minister confirm that the needs of Northern Ireland, and indeed all parts of the United Kingdom, will be taken fully taken into regard as part of the gambling review as it relates to non-devolved matters like gambling advertising? Also, what steps will the Government take to engage with the people of Northern Ireland on this matter?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The Advertising Standards Authority has strict rules on gambling advertising that apply across the UK—so not just GB but also Northern Ireland. They make it clear that the advertisements must be socially responsible and must never target vulnerable people. As I mentioned in an earlier answer, the ASA is currently in the process of consulting on these rules to further minimise the potential for harm from advertising being accessed by vulnerable people.

[Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton (Con)]

My Lords, so that others can get in, I shall be brief. Can my noble friend point to any evidence on whether, following the action taken by the Government in October on the VIP schemes, there has been a material impact?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for his brief question, and I will try to give an equally brief answer. We understand that the number of customers in VIP schemes has fallen by 70% since the commission challenged the industry back in October 2019 and the formal Gambling Commission rules for these schemes came into force at the end of October this year.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Barran, for her obvious personal commitment to tackling the corrosive effects of gambling addiction. Last week during Question Time, in answer to a question that I put about unlicensed and illegal sites, she was good enough to say that these would be within the scope of the review. On the basis of the estimates from the Gambling Commission, can she say now how many websites that are accessed in the UK are operating without a licence and how many have ceased doing so as the result of financial transaction blocking? If she does not have this information immediately at her fingertips, would she be willing to commit to placing the relevant information in the Library of the House in the coming weeks?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for his comments. Unfortunately, we are not in a position to assess the size of the black market as accurately as he would like, perhaps because of its very nature. However, I can say that the number of complaints to the Gambling Commission about black market operators remains unchanged, and that thanks to enforcement action by the commission, in partnership with financial payment providers, 59 unlicensed operators have been removed.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Fookes) (Con)]

I next call the noble Lord, Lord Smith of Hindhead. He is not present, so I call the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle.

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[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for raising that point. I am afraid we will have to look at what the evidence says in relation to the last part of her question about making it mandatory, but the principle that she raises is important. We very much welcome moves by the major platforms that give individuals greater control over what they see.

[Lord Mann (Non-Afl)]

Will the review look at the mental health benefits to working-class pensioners who follow racing and repeatedly lay bets—that is, the benefits of getting them out of the house—as well as the disbenefits to the minority who are addicted? Will it look at the perverse incentives that legislation could lead to in greatly expanding the illicit black market of online gambling, as people shift from what they are stopped from doing by the state to what they can find through Google and other software outlets?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The purpose of the review is to keep the balance. Of course we acknowledge that the vast majority of people who go out and place a bet—whether once a week, twice a year, or however often it might be—may get great fun and pleasure from it, and it can be a form of social contact. However, we also know that there are people who pay a great price and suffer as a result. We are seeking to find a balance, so the evidence in relation to mental health in both directions will be taken seriously.

[Lord Sikka (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, gambling companies such as 888, Bet365, Betfair, Flutter, Ladbrokes, Paddy Power, Sky Bet and William Hill have used complex corporate structures in Guernsey, Alderney, Gibraltar, the Isle of Man, Ireland and Bulgaria to avoid UK corporate taxes. Indeed, in 2018, HMRC finally defeated Ladbrokes on its £71 million tax-avoidance scheme. Does the Minister agree that gambling companies avoiding UK corporate taxes should automatically lose their licence to operate here?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

Companies that avoid taxation illegally, whether they are gambling companies or any other companies, should be held to account for that. However, as the noble Lord is aware, gambling companies contribute about £3 billion to the Exchequer through the levy.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Fookes) (Con)]

My Lords, I am afraid that time is up on this item of business.

Gambling Legislation

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Wednesday 9th December 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Browne of Belmont]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to review gambling legislation.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, yesterday, we launched the first part of our comprehensive review of the Gambling Act with a call for evidence. This is an opportunity to take stock of the significant changes in gambling over the last 15 years. We want to make sure we have the right protections and balance between protecting freedom of choice and preventing harm. I take this opportunity to thank all of your Lordships who served on the Select Committee for your work.

[Lord Browne of Belmont (DUP)]

My Lords, I welcome the reply from the Minister. She will be well aware of the significant concern in this House and wider society about the extent of gambling advertising. As was pointed out by the excellent Select Committee report on the social and economic impact of the gambling industry, the industry currently spends around £1.5 billion a year on advertising. This budget has substantially increased since 2014. Will the Minister first confirm that, in the review promised by the Government, strong consideration will be given to implementing restrictions on gambling advertising to protect individuals who are vulnerable to gambling-related harm? Secondly, will the noble Baroness confirm that the needs of Northern Ireland will be considered, as many forms of advertising are UK-wide rather than solely regional? Finally, can I ask the noble Baroness—

[Noble Lords]

No!

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I reassure the noble Lord that progress is being made on advertising. We are calling for evidence on gambling advertising but obviously, we cannot prejudge the findings. The Advertising Standards Authority’s strict rules on gambling advertising apply across the UK.

[Lord Sikka (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I welcome the review, but have concerns about the process. The overreliance on written evidence will inevitably favour gambling companies and marginalise their victims. I urge the Government to establish a truth commission or Leveson-type inquiry, so that victims of the industry and their families can speak and corporate executives who have failed to honour their promises can be examined under oath.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Lord raises an important point: that the voices of those who have been harmed by gambling should be heard. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State’s first meeting on this issue was with a group of experts with lived experience of gambling harm. I encourage the noble Lord to submit evidence to this review.

[The Lord Bishop of St Albans [V]]

My Lords, I am disappointed that significant parts of this statement read as if they were written by the gambling industry. They pointedly ignore the facts with which we began the Select Committee report: there are nearly 400,000 problem gamblers, plus 60,000 teenage gamblers, materially affecting the lives of 2 million people. Just last night, I spent an hour with yet another family who had lost their 25 year-old son to gambling. As most of the recommendations in the Select Committee report do not require legislation, why will Her Majesty’s Government not implement them now to save lives? Why will they not make this a public health issue?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I am genuinely surprised and disappointed that the right reverend Prelate reads the response in that light, because we felt that the report of the committee on which he sat was extremely helpful and constructive, and it has informed much of our thinking. There is no way that we are waiting for the outcome of the review to make gambling safer, and we have announced significant progress in the last 12 months, in particular the ban on gambling with credit cards.

[Lord Smith of Hindhead (Con)]

My Lords, I refer to my interests as set out in the register. Does the Minister agree that part of this welcome review should consider the benefits of the gambling industry in terms of employment, revenue to the Exchequer and social cohesion—for example, racecourses and lotteries? A measured, regulated industry, as proposed in recommendations by the Lords Select Committee, would avoid the increase in black market activity that has been so prevalent in, for example, Sweden.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The Government absolutely recognise the contribution of the industry, both in fiscal terms and in employing some 100,000 people in this country. We also acknowledge that a gap exists between what the industry says it is doing and what some people experience, and we are keen to close that.

[Baroness Benjamin (LD)]

My Lords, it is well established that loot boxes are a form of gambling disguised within innocent online games played by children. This is a huge concern to parents and child protection organisations, including the Children’s Commissioner, who want loot boxes to be defined by gambling legislation as a form of gambling. What plans do the Government have to regulate loot boxes within any new legislation?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her question. We are delivering on our manifesto commitment to tackle issues around loot boxes. We had a bespoke call for evidence, which closed on 22 November. We plan to publish our response early in 2021.

[Lord Flight (Con)]

My Lords, I share the late Lady Thatcher’s discomfort with gambling, which encourages addictive behaviour. I am keen to know what key issues the Government intend to focus on in the forthcoming review of gambling legislation.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for his question. The scope of the review is intentionally very broad, because we aim for it to be as comprehensive as possible. The three big priorities are the safety of children and whether we are doing everything we can to keep them safe; whether advertising and promotion are carried out responsibly; and whether the regulatory framework is working. Within that, are the voices of those with lived experience being heard?

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Browne of Belmont, for his dogged and unwavering determination, which led to the creation of GAMSTOP and 173,000 people availing themselves of online exclusion. But this does not extend to unlicensed websites. Will the Government therefore consider further action to deal with this, specifically IP blocking, which would protect British people from unlicensed illegal sites? They could at least include this in the review the Minister mentioned.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I reassure the noble Lord and my noble friend Lord Smith of Hindhead that unlicensed sites are within the scope of the review. Again, we very much encourage your Lordships and those in your networks to submit evidence.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, following up on the question of the noble Lord, Lord Alton, I welcome the review, although we point out that it is much delayed. I particularly like the Secretary of State’s description of it as a review of

“analogue law in a digital age”.

As has been said, most of the egregious behaviour is caused by companies that, in this digital age, operate outwith our boundaries and so evade UK statute. We will surely need digital solutions in a digital world. Will the review really consider this issue?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I am slightly puzzled by the noble Lord’s question, because the location of the gambler is where our laws prevail, irrespective of the location of the operator.

[Lord Foster of Bath (LD) [V]]

My Lords, what further evidence do the Government need to establish a gambling ombudsman?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The Government continue to have an open mind about the role of an ombudsman. We are gathering evidence on the effectiveness of the regulatory regime and whether the Gambling Commission needs additional powers. We are already considering commission proposals for a fees uplift.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I declare my role as chair of the Commission on Alcohol Harm. Do the Government recognise the link across addictions, which means that we need an alcohol strategy linked to a gambling strategy? Almost a quarter of gamblers drink as a coping mechanism while gambling, but the incidence is much higher among veterans. When they drink they also use gambling to enhance the adrenaline buzz, which fuels both addictions.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The Government absolutely understand that different addictions are interrelated and interconnected. The Department of Health is leading on a cross-issue addiction strategy.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Lexden) (Con)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed.

Public Service Broadcasting Online

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Wednesday 9th December 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the report by Ofcom Review of prominence for public service broadcasting: Recommendations to Government for a new framework to keep PSB TV prominent in an online world, published on 4 July 2019, what plans they have to introduce legislation to ensure the prominence of public service broadcasting online.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government have engaged with industry to understand fully the impact of Ofcom’s proposals. The Government remain committed to acting on Ofcom’s prominence recommendations, including through legislation. It is important to ensure that prominence and the balance of benefits and obligations support a sustainable future for PSBs. These issues will be considered as part of the Government’s strategic review of PSBs, where we will set out the next steps next year.

[Baroness Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury (LD) [V]]

I thank the Minister as usual for her response. As stated in the Ofcom report published yesterday on the future of PSBs, viewers of all ages and backgrounds value PSBs. The pandemic has highlighted their importance as trusted sources of information, and they will be equally important going forward into a vaccine phase. Does the Minister agree that for viewers to continue to be able to find them across the many connected, ever-changing devices that now exist, they must be kept prominent? Otherwise, what we watch will be dictated by the interests of global tech giants, not the interests of our society. Can the Minister reassure the House that this Government are committed to public service broadcasting, that they recognise that introducing this long overdue—

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury (LD) [V]]

Introducing this long-overdue legislation is urgent, and can the Government say when they will do so?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I will reiterate briefly what I have already said. Of course, the Government have always supported public service broadcasting and continue to do so. We are conducting a wide-ranging review but remain committed to legislation in relation to prominence.

[Baroness Wheatcroft (Non-Afl) [V]]

[Inaudible]—of high-quality content made for UK viewers, including current affairs. Does the Minister agree that this is more important than ever, given the amount of dangerous propaganda that those with malign intent pump out on social media all the time?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I apologise for missing the beginning of the noble Baroness’s question, but I think I got the gist of it. The Government take the importance of impartial and reliable information very seriously and, conversely, are clamping down on both misinformation and disinformation. We have made good progress with social media platforms in this regard.

[Lord Lucas (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I am absolutely delighted by the Minister’s answers. Does she share with me a sense that us all having access to a truthful public service broadcaster is an essential component of keeping a coherent and happier society?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

My noble friend is right to raise these points. Indeed, it is vital also for practical reasons. Given that just over half of the country have access to a video-on-demand service, the role of public service broadcasting continues to be crucial.

[Baroness Lane-Fox of Soho (CB) [V]]

I declare my interests as noted in the register. Can the Minister confirm that there will be a special focus, in the strategic review that she mentioned was coming next year, on the relationship between young people, public service broadcasting and information? With just two minutes a day of news being consumed by people under 24, as other noble Lords have said, the case for the veracity of news and the authenticity of information is so important at the moment.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Baroness is absolutely right. Obviously, I do not want to pre-empt the conclusions of that committee, but across our legislative programme, the importance of children and young people is pre-eminent.

[Baroness Bakewell (Lab) [V]]

I raise the issue of urgency about this Bill. There are two circumstances: first, as has already been said, the increasing abundance of fake news on the internet, with its damaging effect on public trust; and, secondly, the renewed sense of civic responsibility engendered by the pandemic. Will the Minister press the Government to seize the moment and give a date when they will introduce this timely legislation?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The Government are actively working with all the key stakeholders in this area—the TV manufacturers, the platform gatekeepers and the PSBs—but I am afraid I cannot give the noble Baroness a firm date.

[Lord McNally (LD) [V]]

My Lords, will the Minister explain to some of the Neanderthals on her own Benches in both Houses that support for public service broadcasting includes giving stimulation to our creative industries and giving voice to our national and regional identities in ways that the big international providers never will?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I have to say that I do not recognise the description the noble Lord gives of either my noble friends behind me or those in the other place. We absolutely recognise the importance of the investment in our creative industries of more than £2.5 billion a year, and we welcome that and the ecosystem it creates.

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

In my Neanderthal fashion, I have found that BBC Radio 3 has been the mainstay of my life for nearly 50 years, and it is a fine example of public service broadcasting—but in recent years, it has been infected by a sort of relentless “wokeness”, which is a tendency of public service broadcasting. So, while my noble friend is correctly promoting the prominence of PSB, will she also tell us what she will do to try to ensure that it meets a broader spectrum of cultural views across the country?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I think that the new director-general, and the most recent comments from Ofcom, support my noble friend’s final comments about breadth of views and voices—but, as he will know, the BBC is editorially independent, so decisions in relation to Radio 3 rest with it.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, British broadcasting relies to a significant extent on keeping the funding of public service broadcasters separate. What response do the Government have to the decline of mass advertising revenue referred to in the Small Screen: Big Debate consultation recently issued?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I think that the Government are concerned, and my colleagues in the department are working closely with the industry to understand what a sustainable funding model looks like.

[Viscount Colville of Culross (CB)]

The Ofcom report on prominence recommends that there may need to be new obligations to ensure the continued availability of PSB on-demand content to viewers equivalent to the existing “must offer” and “must carry” rules for PSBs’ traditional channels. What plans are there for the PSBs to be available on a wide range of platforms?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Viscount raises an important point. Our view is that this is a commercial issue between the platforms and the PSBs. We will continue to keep it under review as part of our review of the future of PSBs, but in the meantime, we hope that they will achieve a mutually beneficial arrangement.

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno (LD) [V]]

Will the Minister give an assurance that the Welsh language channel S4C will be defended? We depend on the licence fee and are supported by up to £70 million a year in that way. If there is any change, Welsh language broadcasting will be in danger.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I can reassure the noble Lord that this will be part of the review that we will be undertaking.

[Lord Blunkett (Lab)]

My Lords, I would be deeply comforted by the noble Baroness’s answers this afternoon if it were not for the fact that the Secretary of State has established an advisory panel whose membership, it has to be said, is imbalanced in terms of their experience, history and known views. What is the role of the advisory panel in sustaining PSB when so many members are clearly against it?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for his question. Obviously, all members of the panel are expected to operate in an independent capacity. Their role is in relation t advising the Government on some of the complex policy issues, with which the noble Lord is very familiar.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Lexden) (Con)]

My Lords, all supplementary questions have been asked and we will now move to the next Oral Question.

Streaming Platforms: Age Ratings

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Tuesday 8th December 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Clement-Jones]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the partnership between Netflix and the British Board of Film Classification to establish age ratings for streaming platforms; and what plans they have to encourage other streaming platforms to adopt such ratings.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, while adoption of the British Board of Film Classification’s best-practice age ratings by online platforms is currently voluntary, we welcome their usage by video on-demand platforms. This includes an ongoing partnership with Netflix which, on 1 December, announced that it had become the first platform to achieve complete coverage of its content under the BBFC’s ratings. We will continue to engage with industry to encourage other platforms to do the same and will keep the evidence for legislation in this area under review.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, given that at present, under the audiovisual media services directive, the UK cannot regulate non-UK-based video on-demand services, does the Minister agree that BBFC ratings are the best way to inform parents and children whether content is appropriate, because they are trusted and reflect our national concerns on issues such as violence and discrimination? Will the Government take action to promote and ensure adoption by VOD platforms whether regulated here or not?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I hope I was clear in my first Answer that the Government are very supportive of the ratings system. Since 2018, we have encouraged voluntary adoption of the BBFC code.

[The Lord Bishop of Oxford [V]]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her answer. What will the Government do if other platforms do not follow the Netflix example? According to the BBFC, over 90% of parents said that age-related guidance was helpful, and there is no doubt that voluntary action may be more forthcoming if platforms are very clear that the UK Government expect content consumed here in the UK to be properly signposted with BBFC symbols and content advice. How else do the Government plan to ensure that only age-appropriate content is accessible to young and vulnerable viewers?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The right reverend Prelate is absolutely right that the evidence suggests that the overwhelming majority of parents—I think 94%—would like to see a consistent ratings system. We are also aware —this has been raised on many occasions by the public service broadcasters—of the inconsistency in the regulatory environment between PSBs and the platforms. We are looking at that, including asking the PSB panel to review it.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con) [V]]

My Lords, now that Netflix has arrogantly rejected the Secretary of State’s excellent request to make clear at the start of every programme that “The Crown” is a work of fiction, what action do the Government propose to take to ensure that Netflix is regulated by Ofcom and is not free to present poisonous and mendacious material as fact?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I think my noble friend is aware that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State has made his views about the latest series of “The Crown” extremely clear. Perhaps one positive outcome of this is that Netflix has now made a statement in the public domain that acknowledges that this is indeed a fictionalised account. We are hopeful that Netflix will reflect on this for future programmes to make sure that it serves its viewers to best effect.

[Lord Loomba (CB) [V]]

My Lords, we have the 9 pm watershed, which provides parents and guardians with a good marker of the content and age-appropriateness of programmes. Now that more and more traditional broadcasters are offering on-demand services similar to those offered by the streaming platforms, can the Minister say what the Government are doing to ensure age-appropriate content in this growing area of broad- casting?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Lord raises some wide-ranging points. In addition to what I have already mentioned regarding our approach, we are taking forward a media literacy strategy and developing a one-stop shop which will give companies guidance on how to keep children safe online.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, is it true that the content guidelines carried by Netflix are primarily derived by applying algorithms? Does that not differ significantly from how the BBFC arrives at its clear and consistent advice on content? If that is true, is it accurate for Netflix to say that it is carrying BBFC age ratings on all its programmes?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

My understanding is that the system that has been agreed between Netflix and the BBFC is that Netflix takes a self-rating approach in line with the BBFC’s classification, which is then verified and audited by the BBFC. Both parties appear to be content.

[Lord Foster of Bath (LD) [V]]

My Lords, far more parents allow their young children to play 18-plus-rated video games than allow them to watch 18-plus-rated films. Indeed, one survey showed that 86% of parents do not follow video game age restrictions. What more can be done to persuade parents and others buying video games as Christmas presents for children to understand the harm that can be done to children by not taking seriously the age rating of video games?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Lord raises an important point. We would like to see the Pan European Game Information—PEGI—age ratings, which are used for physical copies of games, also used for online games, and we are pursuing that actively.

[Lord Pickles (Con) [V]]

My Lords, algorithm or not, this is a very welcome development because it gives families some guidance with regard to the relevant ages. Is my noble friend surprised that other platforms have not joined in? In particular, Disney does not use the system at all. It uses a ratings system based on a Dutch system, which means that films that the BBFC has classified for cinemas and for DVD release carry a different rating on Disney+. That means that they are not aligned with what UK expectations would be. To take one example, “Mrs Doubtfire”, a film that deals with bereavement, loss and divorce, is sensibly classified as a 12 by the BBFC but is rated as suitable for all on Disney+. This lack of consistency does not help British families. Will my noble friend meet urgently with Disney+, Amazon Prime and Apple to urge them to join the system?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

My noble friend raises important points. I know that many of these companies are very focused on a family-friendly approach and that my noble friend the Minister for Digital and Culture meets regularly with the companies working in this area.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, while I welcome what the Minister has said about keeping the voluntary, rather than mandatory, arrangements under review, can she explain how Ofcom will judge whether an adult service video on demand provider has taken appropriate measures to prevent access by children and young people to our 18-classified material under the new audio-visual regulations that came into effect last month? How does she respond to the warning reported this morning from the Children’s Commissioner that the Government must do more to protect children as messaging apps make more use of encryption?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

Ofcom in particular uses the on-demand programme service code in relation to these platforms. With regard to the noble Lord’s second question, the issues raised around encryption are incredibly important; that is a vital part of our digital world and we need to find a solution. We are working with the industry to find a solution which does not risk child safety but which permits security and cybersecurity.

[Lord McNally (LD) [V]]

My Lords, is it not already clear that the British Board of Film Classification has tremendous respect from the public, and should not the Government bring the board into closer co-operation with the CMA, Ofcom and the Information Commissioner as we map out the legislation that is promised? As has been shown this morning, we need their expertise.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I am very happy to take those suggestions back to the department.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this question has elapsed. We now come to the fourth Oral Question.

National Trust Acts

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Thursday 3rd December 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lexden]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to review the National Trust Acts.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, the National Trust is independent of the Government. Its activities are overseen by its board, the Charity Commission is the regulator and the scope of its work is set out in legislation. While it would be possible for the Government to review the National Trust Acts, we do not believe that it would be a proportionate approach at this time. In the first instance, the trust should be accountable for its activities to the Charity Commission as the trust’s regulator.

[Lord Lexden (Con)]

My Lords, the trust’s director of volunteering recently declared:

“At the National Trust we have a duty to play a part in creating a fairer, more equitable society”.


Is that compatible with the statutes under which the trust operates? Was it not an act of folly for the trust to rush out a tendentious report on slavery and colonialism —insulting the memory of Sir Winston Churchill in the process—in order to demonstrate its good will to a movement that is interested not in securing a deeper, more accurate understanding of colonialism and the past, but only in advancing an extremist political agenda in the present? Unless it changes course, is there not a danger that this important institution, admired by so many for so long, will forfeit the nation’s trust?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I agree with my noble friend that the National Trust plays a unique part in our society, with over 5.5 million members. Our position on all charities, including the National Trust, is that they must pursue their primary charitable purpose, which, in the case of the National Trust, is to protect and preserve our heritage for the nation.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

It is to that last point that I draw noble friend’s attention. This is a much-loved institution, of which many of my close family and my parents have been members—I confess that I have not, but I have visited endless historic house and walked innumerable miles over the coastland and moorland that the trust looks after so well. Indeed, I contributed to Project Neptune half a century ago. I applaud Hilary McGrady, who opened up Divis Mountain, where I watched birds many years ago, looking down on the drab housing estates of west Belfast, but something has gone badly wrong. Why are curators of real expertise being sacked? Yet we now have a curator of repurposing historic houses; it is an infantilisation of going round these houses. Will the Minister let us have a look at the Acts, which have allowed the director-general to be paid nearly £200,000 a year while pursuing an agenda that seems out of tune with the fundamental purpose?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

As I said in my opening remarks, the National Trust is an independent charity, and rightly so. It is therefore the responsibility of its trustees and council to oversee some of the points that my noble friend raised.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Brougham and Vaux) (Con)]

I remind noble Lords to keep their questions brief.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB) [V]]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that, in order to approach equality—it is not just Black Lives Matter that is of importance—we should keep some of the small venues open; after all, we are not just a nation of mansions. I take the Minister’s initial point, but I know that the finances have meant that some of these smaller places are threatened. On Black Lives Matter, I feel completely that it is a question of presenting the facts and letting visitors decide for themselves. There should be no opinion or political aspect to that whatever.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

On the noble Lord’s last point, the Government agree. Our position has been to retain and explain houses, statues and other artefacts that represent our history. If I understood the earlier part of his question correctly, in relation to smaller properties, my understanding is that the National Trust currently has no plans to permanently close any properties or to reduce its commitment to the houses within its care.

[Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab) [V]]

Will the Minister acknowledge that the report commissioned by the National Trust that has been referred to simply sought to audit its collections in a non-judgmental way, so that it can better provide contextual information to those viewing the collections? Will she confirm that she is aware that the National Trust has lost in excess of £200 million in income this year as a result of Covid? The National Trust is the backbone of the tourism industry, which will be important in national post-Covid recovery. What will the Government do to support heritage charities, large and small, to do that important job as part of the national recovery?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

That may well have been the intention: I do not doubt for a second that the National Trust was intending to audit its houses, but our view is that the way in which it was done was unfortunate. While the trust may not have intended to cause offence, the feedback from members and parliamentarians suggests that it did.

[Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville (LD) [V]]

My Lords, the National Trust has fulfilled its charitable objectives over many decades. The country has benefited both from the preservation of cultural heritage and from the nature and beauty of its open spaces. Two of the greatest challenges of our age are tackling climate change and dementia. Will the Minister confirm that the National Trust agreement with the Alzheimer’s Society to make its places dementia-friendly and its zero-emissions target of 2030 are great steps forward?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I was not aware of the specific initiative with the Alzheimer’s Society to which the noble Baroness refers, but I am happy to share her positive remarks in relation to both things.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

I am an enthusiastic member of the National Trust and I was delighted that it spent £7 million at Chartwell on the legacy of Churchill. Surely the Minister will agree that a mature debate on our nation’s history that recognises the complex backgrounds of our lands, our country houses and our statues can only be good for understanding the real history of the whole of our country.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

Those views were set out clearly by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State when he wrote to all arm’s-length bodies earlier this year and talked about history being “ridden with moral complexity” and the need to understand that. The question in this case is about the primary charitable purpose that the National Trust is pursuing.

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

My Lords, the National Trust has become something of a national monopoly, at least in the country house market, largely due to the very large endowment of properties to it by the state over the years in lieu of tax. Will my noble friend agree to undertake an assessment of the benefits that might accrue from splitting it into two or more organisations, with a view to encouraging competition and increasing the variety of visitor experience, which I think I can fairly say has become rather samey?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I am sorry to disappoint my noble friend, but we have no plans currently to do such a review. The National Trust conducts its own governance review every 10 years and any external review of its activities should be left to the Charity Commission.

[Lord Bird (CB)]

I shall take a different angle on the National Trust. I have been approached by people who live in National Trust properties and I know that there are all sorts of plans to modernise the relationships between staff and the tied cottages. In places, these relationships are medieval—very much like the buildings —Victorian or Edwardian. I would like to see a change to the Acts so that we can make sure that the trust is carrying out its social duty for social justice and we do not allow a situation where the tenants are living in the past while the big landlord, the National Trust, is riding high on the hog.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Lord makes an interesting point. I hope that the trustees of the National Trust will read Hansard and pick up on his remarks.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Brougham and Vaux) (Con)]

My Lords, I regret that the time allowed for this Question has now elapsed.

Communications Act (e-Commerce) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Friday 27th November 2020 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Barran]

That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 24 September, 12 and 14 October be approved.

Relevant document: 32nd Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee. Considered in Grand Committee on 10 November. Considered in Grand Committee on 10 and 16 November.

Motions agreed.