Australia: News Media and Digital Platforms Mandatory Bargaining Code

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Thursday 25th February 2021 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, the UK Government are committed to supporting the sustainability of trusted journalism. We have announced plans to introduce a new code of conduct to cover the relationship between dominant online platforms and the different groups of users that depend on them, including news publishers. We are engaging with the Australian Government to develop our understanding of the progress that they are making and are closely monitoring the reaction from both publishers and platforms.

[The Lord Bishop of Oxford [V]]

I thank the Minister for her Answer. Given the proportion of people who now receive most or all their news through social media, do the Government believe that public interest news publishers should have fair, reasonable and non-discriminatory access to strategically significant online platforms for news production and distribution? Given the actions of Facebook in recent days, how can that be secured for the future in the United Kingdom?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The right reverend Prelate makes an important point. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State has been clear in his concerns about Australian news being removed by Facebook. The importance of authoritative news services has also been clear, particularly during the pandemic, with the huge part that they play. As I mentioned in my Answer, we are planning to create a digital markets unit, which will ensure fair competition both for publishers and more widely for other sectors. We remain committed to ensuring that everyone can access authoritative information easily and freely.

[Lord Puttnam (Lab) [V]]

Given the lack of transparency that typifies the working practices of social media companies, would the Minister confirm that the Government are working closely with their European neighbours and the new Biden Administration in developing a robust international legislative approach sufficient to bring these vast and seemingly unaccountable empires within the legal supervision of sovereign nations? If so, could she share with us the progress made to date?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I am unable to share the detail of the progress made to date, but I can reassure the noble Lord that the Government are using every opportunity for international dialogue with both our European neighbours and others. This morning, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State met with his counterpart in Australia and he also recently met his counterpart in Canada. We are working in the most collaborative way possible.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD) [V]]

My Lords, the Australian approach risks legislating in a way that will create its own unintended outcomes. Content and copyright for news publishers is just one part of the problem and can be solved. Market dominance in access to data and in digital advertising is a much bigger issue. We have had many reports urging legislation and action: Cairncross, Furman, the digital task force and now Penrose. Why are the Government dragging their heels in bringing forward legislation to tackle it effectively?

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[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The Government are not dragging their heels, but, as the noble Lord explained very eloquently, there are a lot of interlocking issues here that our new digital markets unit will seek to address.

[Lord Vaizey of Didcot (Con) [V]]

I congratulate the Lord Speaker on his declaration of independence and his remarkable ability to tweet from the Woolsack. I refer to my entries in the register of Members’ interests. Three schemes in the UK currently support local journalism, run by the BBC, Facebook and Google. Would my noble friend the Minister consider creating a forum for publishers and platforms, including, for example, Microsoft, to meet on a regular basis to try to co-ordinate these different activities and give proper, sustained financial support to local newspapers?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I am very happy to take my noble friend’s suggestion back to colleagues in the department, but I know that we are in regular discussion with all the groups he mentioned.

[Baroness Kidron (CB) [V]]

I welcome the Australian Government’s action in creating a mechanism to distribute the value of news media more fairly. I hope that, when we do similarly, we will be able to ensure that it benefits the entire news ecosystem, not only parts of it. Deeply worrying was the spectre of the Australian Government revising their domestic legislation as a result of a series of phone calls with Mark Zuckerberg. Of course we need to hear the views of all stakeholders but, given that Facebook is clearly using its monopoly power and is willing to resort to bullying tactics to revise the domestic legislation of a sovereign state, does the Minister agree that, during the period in which we are working democratically on a number of regulatory fronts, including the online safety Bill, competition law and malicious communication offences, all interaction between Facebook and the Government should be on the record in committee hearings and other public arenas so that it cannot undermine the transparent, democratic legislative process that we all pride ourselves on?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The Government believe that social media companies must be held to account for the consistent and transparent enforcement of their terms and conditions for those using their sites. That includes online safety, to which the noble Baroness referred, but also protecting people’s freedom of speech. We are establishing a regime through the online safety Bill and the digital markets unit that will do this transparently.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, events in Australia highlight the right and importance of Governments acting to ensure that online platforms recognise the value of reliable news content. Would the Minister outline for the House the principles that will inform the Government’s approach to regulatory legislation as set out in the upcoming online safety Bill, and spell out what measures are being considered to outlaw online disinformation campaigns—fake news—and how this will be balanced with the need to protect free speech exemptions for journalists and writers?

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[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I fear I might be growled at by colleagues in the House if I answer the noble Lord’s question in full, so I will write to him with more detail on the online safety Bill. However, as he is aware, it will focus on user-generated content, platforms that allow user interaction, and search engines. More broadly on competition, the regime will lead to an enforceable code of conduct that will stimulate competition and innovation.

[Lord McNally (LD) [V]]

My Lords, the Minister has referred several times to the CMA’s digital markets unit as one of the weapons that will be at our disposal, but the CMA has called for new statutory powers for that unit. Will she commit to those statutory powers being included in the online harms Bill, which has just been referred to, as new powers for the digital markets unit?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The statutory powers for the digital markets unit specifically relate to the code of conduct and how it will apply to platforms that have strategic market status. If I have understood the noble Lord’s questions correctly, those are separate from the online harms Bill, but those powers will be put on a statutory basis.

[Lord Empey (UUP) [V]]

My Lords, there is a widespread feeling in the community that these large companies are so powerful that an individual country such as our own will not be able to stand up to them. I refer back to the contribution from the noble Lord, Lord Puttnam, on international co-operation to deal with them. Is that a properly co-ordinated process? Can she also confirm, since most of these companies are American-owned, whether this issue has arisen in any trade discussions with the United States of America?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Lord is right that these are global companies and some international co-ordination will be required to have the maximum impact. We are very much working with partners, as I said in response to the noble Lord, Lord Puttnam. We are also aware that other countries around the globe and the major platforms are looking at the work we are doing. We are leading in our ambition in this field.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed. That brings Question Time to an end.

Covid-19: Performing Arts Freelance Workers

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Wednesday 10th February 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. In doing so, I draw the House’s attention to my interests as listed in the register.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, around 40% of awards made so far from the £1.57 billion Culture Recovery Fund have gone to non-building-based organisations. Arts Council England has also provided over £47 million of awards to individuals through non-CRF funds. The Government have supported the self- employed in the performing arts through the Self-employment Income Support Scheme. As of 31 December, 60,000 self-employed people in the sector have claimed for phase 3 of the scheme, 76,000 received support in phase 1 and 72,000 in phase 2.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for her detailed Answer and wish her a very happy birthday. It is undoubtedly true that significant help has gone to organisations from the CRF, but organisations can help freelancers only by employing them. Recent research from Freelancers Make Theatre Work shows that performing arts organisations ordinarily expect to spend nearly 40% of their turnover on employing freelancers. This has not been possible for nearly a year and there is no early prospect of work resuming. One-third of freelancers in the sector have received no government support since the pandemic began and I can tell from personal experience how desperate they have become. Do the Government now have plans to broaden the eligibility criteria for the Self-employment Income Support Scheme and/or to enable remaining CRF funds to be used to provide more targeted, direct support to freelancers?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her kind wishes. In relation to her question, she is right that the work of freelancers is totally tied up with the ability of cultural institutions to begin to perform again, something that we are all very much looking forward to. The Treasury is looking at phase 4 of the Self-employment Income Support Scheme and will be announcing the terms of that in the Budget early next month. In the meantime, we have held back £400 million from the Culture Recovery Fund as a contingency to make sure that we are able to support organisations and the freelancers they employ, so that we can begin to enjoy our performing arts again when it is safe to do so.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP) [V]]

My Lords, what has the regional distribution of money paid out from the Culture Recovery Fund been? How much has been in London and the south-east and how much in the rest of the country?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I start by wishing the noble Baroness a happy birthday as well, and the noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox, if she is listening—it is a busy day. I will have to write to the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, with the exact distribution in England. In the devolved Administrations, £33 million has been given to Northern Ireland, £97 million to Scotland and £59 million to Wales.

[Lord Vaizey of Didcot (Con)]

My Lords, I draw attention to my entries in the Register of Lords’ Interests. I also wish absolutely everybody a happy birthday, particularly the Minister, who has achieved so much at such a young age. I wonder whether she has had a chance to look at the Institute for Fiscal Studies report, which suggests that for about 5% of the cost of the furlough scheme we could fill the gaps left for some freelancers who are not eligible under SEISS. It is about £5 billion, which in pre-Covid days was a lot of money, but in Covid days it is just 5%. Could she give me the Government’s view on that report? Will she, along with her colleagues, meet trade bodies such as the Creative Industries Federation which are doing so much work engaging with freelancers and looking for solutions?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I am of course happy to agree to meet any of the trade bodies that my noble friend suggests. Colleagues in the department are considering this report and working very closely with HMRC, the Treasury and the freelance community to understand take-up of the Self-employment Income Support Scheme and how that can best operate in future.

[Viscount Colville of Culross (CB)]

I too wish all the noble Baronesses a happy birthday, of course. I would like to pick up on the question of the noble Lord, Lord Vaizey. At the moment under SEISS, those freelancers who have gaps in their self-assessment tax returns during the last three years due to maternity leave, paternity leave or caring responsibilities have received lower grants. Can the Minister assure the House that the Government plan to adapt the scheme to incorporate a declaration for those freelancers so that these gaps can be covered?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I reassure the noble Viscount that all these options will be considered, but we remain of the view that the support that we are offering the cultural sector through the Culture Recovery Fund, combined with following public health advice so that we can reopen our cultural venues as quickly as possible, is the best route for re-employing freelancers.

[Baroness Bakewell (Lab) [V]]

All the people to whom we are giving birthday wishes—which I join in doing—are women. I draw the Minister’s attention to the fact that women freelancers working in the arts, who constitute a very high proportion, suffer badly for two reasons. Last year, pay gap enforcement was suspended, and many women reduced their working hours to care for children who were home for school. This renders them not qualified for the Self-employment Income Support Scheme. Will the Government adjust their provision to include targeted support for women freelancers working in the arts?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

As I said to other noble Lords, we are considering all the elements in detail and all the barriers to taking up the support offered. A further announcement on this will be made by the Treasury in the Budget.

[Baroness Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury (LD) [V]]

Happy birthday to all as well, and for once I suspect that the noble Baronesses wish they were a bit older so that they could get the jab. Last week we saw British talent triumph in the nominations for the Golden Globes. We cannot risk losing this vibrant sector, which contributes so much to our economy and world standing, but that is what we are heading towards. As my honourable friend Jamie Stone has repeatedly highlighted in his campaign “Gaps in Support”, so many of those facing this plight are from the creative industries. Does the Minister recognise that there should be more targeted financial help for this group? Can she say what exactly the Government are doing about this?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I feel as though I should have birthday cake on the Dispatch Box. Of course our understanding and our approach needs to evolve as our understanding of the pandemic and its impact evolves. We have aimed to tackle this from all directions by supporting our institutions with a major funding package, having a very broad job support and self-employed support scheme, and giving targeted support to individuals—particularly from the Arts Council, which has distributed £47 million in England alone.

[Lord Naseby (Con) [V]]

Diversity of the performing arts is important. What is the linkage with self-employed freelancers, so that both Government and these individuals can keep abreast of what exactly is happening and raise matters of concern?

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[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The Government are making every effort to co-ordinate with the sector and hear from it directly about the impacts. I shall give my noble friend two examples: we have established steering groups for both indoor venues and outdoor events and festivals, and are working closely with a number of sector bodies across music and the arts. If there are particular groups that he thinks we should be listening to more, I invite him to get in touch.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I am beginning to wish I had brought some freelancers along to sing “Happy Birthday”, rather than ask a question. However, given that the spring Budget is fast approaching, will DCMS Ministers now lobby the Chancellor to admit the mistakes of the past and accept and correct the injustice of excluding so many of our hard-working freelancers in the cultural industries from the Government’s Covid-19 support schemes? I also urge them to take advantage of the fact that we are entering the new tax year.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I cannot accept the noble Lord’s criticism of the Government’s action, which has been speedy, generous, broad and effective. Of course we keep it under review, but it is unparalleled in its generosity.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Garden of Frognal) (LD)]

My Lords, with all the birthday wishes, in which I join, we have run out of time, so I apologise to the noble Lords, Lord Berkeley of Knighton, Lord Foster of Bath and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara, that there was not time to take their questions.

Online Gambling: Stake Limits

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Tuesday 9th February 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foster of Bath (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper and declare my interests as set out in the register.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Barran)]

My Lords, we welcome the Gambling Commission’s new measures on online slots games, which will help to reduce the intensity of play and protect vulnerable people. We are seeking evidence on the case for and against further controls, such as stake limits, as part of the Gambling Act review. It will be an evidence-based review to ensure that we get the right balance between respecting freedom of choice and preventing harms.

[Lord Foster of Bath (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her response but I was concerned by the Government’s apparent complacency. Only last week, shocking research by Oxford University revealed the devastating impact on the health of those who gamble more than they can afford, including an increased likelihood of suicide. That shows the urgent need for measures on affordability and tighter restrictions on advertising, for example. If the Gambling Commission also proposes online stake limits, will the Government ensure their early introduction without waiting for the outcome of the gambling review?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I cannot accept that this Government have been complacent about reviewing measures in relation to gambling and protecting vulnerable people. We have made a number of changes, most importantly in recently announcing the full-scale review. We will continue to implement things as quickly as they are needed and not wait for legislation.

[Lord Empey (UUP) [V]]

My Lords, my noble friend may be aware that our former Select Committee on Financial Exclusion, of which I was a member, learned that gambling companies deliberately targeted the most vulnerable in our community. They knew exactly who was watching TV at three in the morning. With the tidal wave of increased advertising, is it not time, given the severe damage being caused, for the Government to consider a precept or special tax on these companies to offset the increased costs in health and social care resulting from abuses that are clearly taking place in our country?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for his question. As we have said, we are considering all options in this regard but have also made major commitments to increasing provision for those who are negatively impacted by gambling. We hope very much that the evidence arising from the review will shape that thinking going forward.

[Lord Smith of Hindhead (Con)]

My Lords, I refer to my interests as set out in the register. Does my noble friend agree that if a limit on stakes for online prizes is introduced, as I think it should be, then such limits must apply equally to the maximum stake for all National Lottery online instant win games, which is currently £10?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The current maximum stake for National Lottery online instant win games has actually been changed to £5, following the Gambling Commission’s decision to withdraw all £10 online instant win games last summer. The National Lottery is regulated under a separate framework from commercial gambling, which reflects the lower ratios of harm observed there.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB) [V]]

My Lords, on the plus side, it is noticeable how advertising is now more strenuous in warning about the dangers of gambling. But specialists in addiction tell us that the mere act of suggestion—a bottle to an alcoholic, a syringe to a drug addict, and slot games or horses to gamblers—act as incentives to partake. So it is, as we have heard, the sheer frequency of advertising that is worrying. Does the Minister therefore feel that there is a genuine desire by the gambling industry to restrict the terrible damage that can affect whole families, given its obvious conflict of interests?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I obviously cannot speak on behalf of the industry but looking at advertising and marketing, direct and indirect, is a core part of the review and one of its six main aims. Two recent consultations on advertising have just closed and there will be a response soon—one in relation to the appeal of gambling adverts to children and vulnerable people, and one around advertising and selling items in video games. I think we are all aiming for the same goal of that balance between freedom and protection.

[Baroness Armstrong of Hill Top (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I know that the Minister shares with me a concern about the apparently increasing number of women who are gambling, which has a huge impact on their lives and the lives of their families and children. What assessment have the Government therefore made of the number of women who suffer from a gambling disorder in the UK? Do the Government believe that we currently have the right treatment, and enough of it, to have proper intervention for women? Does the Minister feel that there are satisfactory levels of treatment and intervention?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Baroness makes an important point. The latest data that we have shows that 87% of women gambled at the same level or less during the past year, while the quarterly survey that is run shows 0.3% of women gamblers identifying as problem gamblers. The noble Baroness is right that this data relates to the last year so more work and research needs to be done to understand the true extent, and therefore the need for additional treatment and support when we have understood that fully.

[Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville (LD) [V]]

My Lords, it has been suggested that stake limits online may drive gamblers to the unregulated black market. The most addictive form of online gambling is slots with no stake limit. Does the Minister agree that, while concerns around the gambling black market should be addressed, these should not impede reform of the regulated sector, including online gambling?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

We are very keen to address all issues, such as online slots, which, as the noble Baroness says, is one of the most harmful and riskiest forms of gambling with the highest loss ratios. That is why these recent changes which affect the design of games are so important, but we will need to navigate in the review a number of overlapping factors, including the black market.

[Lord Mancroft (Con)]

My Lords, I wish to draw attention to my interests in the register. Gambling companies make 60% of their profits from just 5% of players and they create VIP schemes especially for high-spend customers to encourage them to play more and more—effectively, to lose more and more money. When are the Government going to ban these VIP schemes and put measures in place to ensure that what someone spends on gambling is affordable to them?

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[Baroness Barran (Con)]

My noble friend is right to raise the issue of VIP schemes. Our understanding is that since the commission challenged the industry on this, the number of customers in VIP schemes has fallen by 70%, and the rules governing the schemes formally came into force at the end of October. We will continue to monitor them and, if further action is needed, the Gambling Commission is ready to take it.

[Lord Sikka (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, the Gambling Commission is, as always, playing catch-up. Does the Minister agree that it needs to be proactive? Will the Government introduce legislation under which all gambling products, prior to their launch, would be assessed for their capacity to cause social harm?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The Gambling Commission has been very active, particularly in the last year with the risks around Covid and lockdown. We are currently looking at funding, and there is a consultation out on an uplift to Gambling Commission fees, to make sure that it can keep pace with the industry.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed, which brings Question Time to an end.

Music Sector: Working in Europe

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Wednesday 3rd February 2021 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Clancarty]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they plan to take to support the music sector with (1) touring, and (2) other work, in Europe.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government recognise the importance of international touring for the whole range of UK cultural and creative practitioners. The Secretary of State has committed to creating a DCMS-led working group to work closely with the sector’s representative organisations and other key government departments to assist businesses and individuals as far as possible to work confidently in the EU. That group met for the first time on 20 January.

[The Earl of Clancarty (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister find it acceptable that artists from countries across the globe, such as Colombia and the United Arab Emirates, have through the standard visa waiver agreement potentially better access to the EU than ourselves, the EU’s next-door neighbour? What steps are the Government taking to proactively engage with the EU to find a solution to touring arrangements in Europe? Having to deal individually with 27 EU countries and even, as in Belgium and Germany, regions within countries does not cut it. It is the last thing that the music sector wants.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Earl is right to highlight some of the challenges that now face our brilliant musicians and creative artists. As he knows, in the UK-EU trade negotiations the EU tabled a proposal for a permanent waiver for short stays covering UK and EU citizens that drew on agreements such as those with Colombia and the UAE. However, this offer would not have met the needs of touring musicians in the round, nor was it compatible with our manifesto commitment to take back control of our borders. Therefore, our starting point is to listen to and work with those in the sector to make sure that they have the information that they need, in a clear and accessible way, so that they can continue their valuable work once Covid restrictions are lifted.

[Baroness Bakewell (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, the countries cited by my friend the noble Earl have unilateral agreements with the EU, which makes these relationships possible. Will the Government now seek their own new bilateral agreements with the EU and EU member states, separate from the trade agreement, so that they can exempt touring performers and creative people from the visa and work permit regulations?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

As the noble Baroness has heard me say at the Dispatch Box on several occasions, we are exploring individual options to try to ease the process for our musicians and creative artists, but there are no current plans such as the one that she suggests.

[Baroness Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I welcome the dialogue between the Minister’s department and the industry. Not just musicians but professionals from other creative industries rely on touring and now face this extra bureaucracy when moving between the EU and the UK. Can the Minister say whether moving equipment—whether musical instruments, scenery, merchandise or artefacts—by truck or cargo will require carnets between Great Britain and Northern Ireland? The Northern Ireland protocol makes no mention of temporary import/export.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

Given the sensitivities around arrangements with Northern Ireland at the moment, if I may, I will double-check and confirm to the noble Baroness. My understanding is that artists and organisations based in Northern Ireland will not be required to obtain ATA carnets or musical instrument certificates when touring in the EU, because the protocol means that Northern Ireland is part of that regulatory environment.

[Lord Vaizey of Didcot (Con)]

My Lords, half our musicians earn half their income in the European Union. Echoing the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, I add that Tonga and St Lucia also have visa waiver agreements with the European Union. Is the Government’s position that Tonga and St Lucia do not have control over their borders and therefore should now turn their backs on their visa waiver schemes, or will the Government see sense and pursue a bilateral agreement for a visa waiver scheme for our musicians?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

This Government are not responsible for any of the visa arrangements for the countries to which my noble friend referred. We recognise that additional requirements will need to be met for our cultural professionals to tour and work in the EU. Some member states allow touring without a permit and others require a pre-approved visa and/or work permit. We are undertaking an extensive programme of engagement with our sectors to find the best way through.

[Baroness Bull (CB)]

My Lords, the deal presents challenges across all art forms. The 10-person dance-circus company Motionhouse exemplifies this. It is currently negotiating a 56-show tour at 20 venues in 11 EU countries. The additional costs of carnets, permits and visas rise to £37,000, on top of new administrative costs and in-country taxes. Is the Minister aware that the company will also need to monitor any holidays that its dancers take in the Schengen area? If it pushes any one of them over the 90 days allowed, it could be forced to cancel or refuse bookings. What advice can she offer this company and many like it, so that it can continue to promote UK creativity to the world, as it has done for 33 years?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I congratulate the company on what it has achieved over the last 33 years. We in this House are all proud of the work of our creative colleagues. I advise them to work through their industry bodies to make sure that the department hears of the issues that they face and can feed them into the solutions that we are trying to find.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, listening to the noble Baroness’s answers today, I have the uncomfortable feeling that we have gone backwards from where we were a couple of weeks ago, when she last answered a Question on this subject in the House. Is she saying that the Government now have no intention of further engagement with the EU or EU member states to try to get a better outcome for the many performers and performing arts organisations that are faced with these new restrictions? If so, is that not a counsel of despair?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I hope that it is not a counsel of despair. As I have said before in the House, there is scope to return to this issue in the future, should the EU change its mind. We were clear on what we tried to achieve. That ambitious request was based on advice that we received from musicians and the creative industries more broadly. We cannot go back from what they have told us that they need. The Government are looking at whether we can work with our partners in EU member states to find ways to make life easier for them in the meantime.

[Lord Strasburger (LD) [V]]

A year ago, the Creative Industries Minister told the Commons that music tours are

“the lifeblood of the industry”.

He said:

“It is essential that free movement is protected for artists post 2020.”—[Official Report, Commons, 21/1/20; cols. 56-57WH.]


Those are fine words, but what is the reality? The creative arts were completely ignored in the EU trade deal. One of our stellar export industries has been butchered by this botched negotiation. Why have the Government not gone back to Brussels to fix this mess?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I cannot accept the noble Lord’s assertion that these industries were ignored. Our negotiators worked extremely hard to try to put forward a proposal that would have benefited both the EU and the UK creative sectors and we are disappointed that it was not accepted.

[Lord Bowness (Non-Afl) [V]]

This issue is much wider than just musicians, although that is clearly extraordinarily important. I am amazed we were only having discussions with the industry on 20 January, because this issue has been around for a long time. On 20 December, the noble Lord, Lord True, told me that the more ambitious agreement on movement was rejected by the EU. However, in March last year the Home Office told me:

“These arrangements are not dependent on whether or not the Government concludes a Comprehensive Free Trade Agreement with the EU.”


On 5 May, I was told that it depended on both. My question, which I raised in the debate on 8 January was: does this have to be negotiated with the EU or the individual states? If it is the latter, how many of the 27 have we approached and how many are we engaged with in negotiations?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

To clarify for my noble friend, our work with the industry did not start on 20 January, and I am sorry if I was not clear on that point. The Secretary of State established a new round-table group which has met for the first time, but all our work in this area has been informed by feedback from the sector. In relation to my noble friend’s wider points, I will respond in writing if I may.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)]

My Lords, I am sorry, but the time allowed for this Question has elapsed.

EU: Musicians

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Thursday 28th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord German]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the impact of the United Kingdom-European Union Trade and Cooperation Agreement on musicians and musical enterprises seeking to work and tour in the European Union.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government recognise the importance of international touring for UK cultural and creative practitioners. Leaving the EU has always meant that there would be changes to how practitioners operate in the EU. The DCMS has engaged with the sector extensively throughout negotiations and since the announcement of the trade and co-operation agreement. The Secretary of State has agreed to create a DCMS-led working group to work closely with the sector’s representative organisations and other key government departments to assist businesses and individuals as far as possible to work confidently in the EU.

[Lord German (LD)]

My Lords, I set aside for the moment the ping-pong on who is to blame for what has happened, and remember the anxiety and anguish faced by many of the top musicians in the UK. The Minister told the House last week that

“Our door absolutely remains open”—[Official Report, 19/1/21, col. 1085.]


to dialogue with the EU on this matter. Open doors mean that people can go through them without hindrance. Has an open-door invitation been made to the European Union, and if not why not?

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[Baroness Barran (Con)]

As the noble Lord knows, it takes two people to meet though an open door. I was also very clear in my answers last week that our priority was working with the sector to understand its needs and working bilaterally with individual countries. But we still believe that our original suggestion would have benefited all parties.

[Baroness Bakewell (Lab) [V]]

Clearly, this Brexit situation is unsatisfactory for all those involved. The Secretary of State for the arts, Oliver Dowden, calls the arts sector one of our greatest calling cards. It is indeed soft power with diplomatic significance. Musicians from both pop and classical sides of the profession tell me that cultural attachés in embassies across London are concerned about this situation. Setting aside the blame game, can the Government reopen negotiations and go through this open door, as it concerns an industry worth four times the fishing industry to this country?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The Government are also concerned to make sure that our critical and creative sector—and within that, musicians—continue to thrive, which is why we are working closely with the sector to achieve that.

[Lord Foster of Bath (LD) [V]]

My Lords, in addition to problems with work permits, carnets and CITES certificates, there is another. Prior to Brexit, when UK orchestras toured Europe, they often visited several venues in multiple countries. Their own or rented specialist vehicles would move instruments and equipment from venue to venue. Can the Minister confirm that under the new post-Brexit cabotage rules this will no longer be possible unless UK orchestras stop using UK vehicles and rely on EU ones? Is this another example of taking back control?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Lord is right that there are changes to the cabotage arrangements going forward. UK operators can perform some additional movements within another nation’s territory, but they are more limited than previously. Our colleagues in the Department for Transport are, we know, working hard to address these issues.

[Baroness Rawlings (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I declare my interest as vice-president of the European Union Youth Orchestra. The outcome of Brexit was that the EUYO had to move to Bolzano and Grafenegg. As it tours constantly, can HMG make certain that the British players, who already have difficulties, can have multiple visas without too much trouble and expense? This is understandably more complicated with the Covid-19 pestilence.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

My noble friend raises an important point. As she knows, during the transition period, UK players were guaranteed their membership of the EUYO, and have been reinvited during 2021. As I said, we continue to engage closely with representatives from all parts of the music sector to provide the support that musicians, including the EUYO’s members, need to navigate the requirements that result from the UK-EU Trade and Cooperation Agreement.

[Lord Aberdare (CB)]

My Lords, 76% of musicians in a recent survey by Encore Musicians said that Brexit restrictions would stop them performing again in Europe. In the light of this, and in the apparent absence of any movement through the open door, will the Minister say what specific help the Government might offer to musicians to help them cope with the new challenges that they face in order to tour in the EU, including administrative support with obtaining work permits, carnets and other requirements, and financial support to offset some of the extra costs involved?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Lord makes a serious point. In relation to the first part of his question, he will be aware that the arrangements are different in different countries. For example, the requirements to tour France are much more straightforward than some other countries. Obviously, musicians may choose to adjust to that. I cannot give him the detail of what will be proposed. What I can say is that the round table that the Secretary of State held with the industry on the 20th of this month was extremely constructive in tone in addressing all those points.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, going back to the answer given just a few moments ago to the noble Lord, Lord German, will the Minister confirm that the plan seems to be that since the Home Office will not provide reciprocal arrangements on the basis that the EU has proposed, we are talking about bilateral deals right across Europe, and that a working group has been formed which is meeting to draw up plans? Is that where we have got to?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I think where we have got to is that we have secured a deal with the European Union extremely recently. The agreement cannot be renegotiated. It needs now to be implemented. We aim to do that in collaboration with the sector to make sure that it can thrive in future.

[Lord Strasburger (LD) [V]]

My Lords, a year ago the Government told the Commons that free movement for musicians post 2020 was “essential”, but then left them out of the trade agreement. Will the Government now come clean with the touring musicians and crews they have betrayed and say to them, “We’re sorry. We screwed up the trade negotiation and came back with absolutely nothing for you, having promised you everything. We’ll go back to Brussels immediately and sort it out”?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I absolutely reject any suggestion that this Government have betrayed the sector. We continue to support it. We have championed it with a £1.57 billion culture recovery package and we continue to work in a very constructive tone with it.

[Lord Mann (Non-Afl)]

If this situation is not resolved, our world-leading jazz sector will start to lose its world-leading reputation. Will the Government guarantee to carry on meeting regularly with the Musicians’ Union until this problem is resolved?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The Government meet regularly with the Musicians’ Union and find it an extremely valuable stakeholder in this discussion.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con) [V]]

My Lords, the UK has benefited from and supported greatly the European Union Youth Orchestra and the Chamber Orchestra of Europe. Will my noble friend look favourably on exchanges such as that developed bilaterally between the UK and Denmark, Praktik i udlandet, where business students on both sides can benefit from business placements? If we are going down the bilateral route, can we proceed as positively and as swiftly as possible?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I cannot comment on the specific that my noble friend cites as an example but, as I have said, the spirit of this is working with the sector to understand what it needs, and we will continue to do so.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB) [V]]

My Lords, for the purposes of clarity, I ask: does this situation not mean that instead of our musicians bringing several billion pounds into the UK economy, we will be in a negative position? If Oliver Dowden manages to find funds to help us, it will be money going out of the UK coffers to support an industry that normally helps the UK economy by £5.8 billion?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

Those export earnings are extremely important but, as the noble Lord understands very well, the ecosystem of the music sector is very broad. There will be larger groups that will be less impacted directly by some of these changes, but our creative and cultural sector is made up of a multiplicity of talented smaller groups of musicians who we absolutely see as critical and want to support.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed.

Telecommunications Infrastructure (Leasehold Property) Bill

Baroness Barran Excerpts

3rd reading & 3rd reading (Hansard) & 3rd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Thursday 28th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I am glad that the noble Lord, Lord Alton, has rehearsed the background to his Report stage amendment and explained the reasons for bringing it back to your Lordships’ House today. We simply cannot turn a blind eye. Standing aside or ignoring what is happening in China is tantamount to condoning the appalling actions described by the noble Lord in his powerful and moving speech.

A lot has changed since June. I am sure that the Minister will update us on subsequent government action, particularly in relation to Huawei equipment. As a number of noble Lords have said, other legislation—including the Trade Bill, before your Lordships’ House again next Tuesday—has amendments bearing on this issue. The case made by the noble Lord, Lord Alton, is unanswerable, as I have made clear. However, tabling this amendment to this Bill is perhaps not the best way of achieving his wider objectives. It might, I suppose, adversely affect the chances of the big win that we hope to achieve on Tuesday with his amendment to the Trade Bill.

Everyone who has spoken today has supported the noble Lord, Lord Alton, and paid tribute to his campaigning and his ceaseless tenacity on this cause. If he chooses to divide the House, we will support him, but I hope that he will feel able to accept the Government’s position on this narrowly focused Bill and that it would be better to defer the decision to Tuesday’s debate on the Trade Bill.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their contributions to this important debate. We all agree that this is a matter of great importance, which is why, on Report, I committed to bringing the issue back at this stage. I said:

“We will endeavour to find all the time possible to have sufficient ground to bring back a government amendment.”—[Official Report, 29/6/20; col. 538.]


I would like to reassure noble Lords that, working with officials in my department, I have tried my utmost to find a way forward.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Alton, for his generous words. I have virtually met and spoken with him and other noble Lords on several occasions to discuss their concerns. My officials have had discussions with their colleagues in the Home Office, the Foreign Office and the Public Bill Office on how the Government might bring forward a legislative provision that—to quote the noble Lord, Lord Alton, on Report—had “teeth”.





We put two different versions of a government amendment forward to do this but were advised by the Public Bill Office that they were out of scope. It has been unequivocal that this includes any amendment addressing issues in the supply chain, such as those issues rightly raised by the noble Lord. Such issues—and thus, amendments seeking to address them—are therefore out of scope of this Bill. As a result, regrettably the Government have been unable to table an amendment to this effect, as I set out in my letter to all Peers on 26 January.

This also means that this amendment will not impact on the supply chain in the way that its sponsors intend. Indeed, it does not touch the supply chain at all. This is why we are resisting the amendment today, but along with other noble Lords, I commend the noble Lord, Lord Alton, for beginning a very important new stage of the conversation about modern slavery, particularly in Xinjiang, and human rights more broadly.

Several noble Lords invited me to share some of the actions that the Government have taken, and I am pleased to do so. On 12 January, the Foreign Secretary announced a series of measures to ensure that UK businesses and the public sector are not complicit in human rights violations in Xinjiang. This includes four main actions: first, strengthening the overseas business risk guidance to make clearer the risks to UK businesses investing in, or with, supply chains in Xinjiang; secondly, a review of export controls as they apply to the situation in Xinjiang, to ensure that we are doing all that we can to prevent the export of goods that may contribute to human rights violations in Xinjiang; thirdly, the introduction of financial penalties for organisations which fail to comply with the Modern Slavery Act; and, fourthly, ensuring that government and public sector bodies have the evidence that they require to exclude suppliers that are complicit in human rights violations in Xinjiang.

This announcement is a clear demonstration of the UK’s global leadership role in standing up for the rights of Uighurs and other ethnic minorities in Xinjiang. I thank all noble Lords who acknowledged that Government’s work in this area. These measures will help to ensure that no British organisation, whether public or private sector, is contributing inadvertently to violations in Xinjiang. As we know, consumer opinion and reputational considerations can and do play an important part in influencing corporate behaviour, and we as a Government are sending a strong signal that we will not stand by as these violations continue, and that there is a reputational and economic cost to them.

The noble Lord, Lord Alton, asked me three questions. The first was about the timing of putting into practice the legislation from the Home Office. We will legislate as soon as parliamentary time allows us to introduce penalties for non-compliance, and other measures which will strengthen the transparency legislation.

Regarding our conversations with BT, I am sure that he will understand that it would not be appropriate to comment on conversations with an individual company, but I think that he will also agree that we, like him, want respect for human rights to be at the centre of all business that takes place in this country.

On the role of the judiciary and state genocide, which the noble Lord understands much better than many people, and certainly me, state genocide clearly is very difficult to prove in a judicial context. The evidential threshold is high, and proceedings tend to be long and costly. It would be difficult for the High Court effectively to determine genocide, with the inevitable constraints that would exist on access to evidence and witnesses, and it would be wrong for the Government or MPs to subcontract to the courts our responsibility for deciding when a country’s human rights record is sufficiently bad that we will not engage in trade negotiations. Parliament’s responsibility is to determine when sanctions take place and with whom we negotiate. We continue to believe that responsibility rests with Parliament.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Adonis (Lab)]

My Lords, we are very grateful for the Minister’s reply. She said that the Government wished to table a specific amendment which was ruled out of order by the Public Bill Office. Is it the Government’s intention to bring the precise power that they were going to take in this Bill in the Telecommunications (Security) Bill? The Government control the legislative process. Will they bring forward the precise proposal they wished to bring forward in this Bill in another, which will come before us in the near future?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

Just to clarify, the Government brought two versions of the amendment, not one. To the best of my knowledge, there is no intention to bring it back because the focus of the Telecommunications (Security) Bill is on telecoms security and national security. Therefore, any such amendment would face the same barrier as it faced in this Bill—namely, it would be out of scope. If it were effective on the supply chain, it would be out of scope.

[Baroness Northover (LD)]

The Government have always said that genocide must be decided judicially. The noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, has always reiterated that. Can the Minister clarify what she apparently said —that the Government seem now to have decided, in effect, that genocide might be decided by Parliament?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I hope I did not confuse the House. I am very happy to put in writing the Government’s exact position on this.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Haskel) (Lab)]

I have received a request to ask a short question from the noble Lord, Lord Alton.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the Minister for the way she set out the case to the House. In response to the noble Lord, Lord Fox, she talked a little more about digital supply chain transparency. Given that this falls within her departmental brief, can she explain whether it will be within the security Bill that will come forward, so that it can be part of the discussion that takes place on that Bill? Also, will she share the wording of the two amendments she referred to in reply to the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, with the House so that Members can decide whether there are things that we would like to test on the Table Office, to see whether they could be brought into scope?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

On the noble Lord’s second point, I will have to defer to colleagues about the ability to do that. In relation to the supply chain, my understanding is that that work is complementary to the security Bill rather than directly within it. Again, I am happy to write to the noble Lord to confirm that.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, I promised the House that I would listen carefully to noble Lords’ contributions. I gently say to the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan of Cotes, that we would not have been having this debate if the amendment had not been in scope, so this amendment is in scope. The problem for the Government has been being able to get an amendment in scope to deal with the human rights issue. I recognise that the problem is that this is not a tree on which you can very easily hang new limbs. The Bill was therefore an opportunity, rather than necessarily the right piece of legislation, to bring before the House the enormities of what is happening in Xinjiang and the links of state agencies and arms, such as Huawei, to the Chinese Communist Party. That we have done across the Chamber very successfully, and I am grateful to the Government for the moves they have made. I set that out in my remarks at the outset of the debate. I am particularly grateful to the Minister, the noble Baroness, Lady Barran, who has been exemplary in the way she has dealt with the arguments and with individuals, especially difficult, persistent, awkward Members of your Lordships’ House, who do not easily let go on issues of this kind, and I do not think the House would expect us to.

The Minister has been given notice that we will be here again on Tuesday dealing with the extraordinary issue of genocide and what can be done about it. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, I was puzzled by what the Minister said to the House a few minutes ago. It has always been the position of the Government—not just this Government, but their predecessors as well—that the determination of genocide is a matter for the courts. Indeed, the Prime Minister himself said that in the House of Commons only a week ago, and therein lies the problem. If there is not a court mechanism in the United Kingdom to deal with this, we have to rely on international courts, particularly the International Criminal Court, and everyone knows that if you were to take to the Security Council the horrors taking place in Xinjiang, which have been described in your Lordships’ House, the possibility that the People’s Republic of China would refer itself to the International Criminal Court for a criminal investigation is risible.

I am a great supporter of the ICC, which was set up by the Rome statute and a genuine attempt to fill the gap that has always been there since the 1948 convention on the crime of genocide, but sadly it has not done so and we still have to address how we can get determinations of genocide made. I think the only way we can do that is now through our own courts. Senior figures from our judiciary have spoken in favour of this. Retired Supreme Court judges, a former Lord Chief Justice and many senior figures in your Lordships’ House with a legal background have said that it is practical and something that our courts can and should do. I hope the House will have heard what the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, said today.

I end by saying two things, one which the Minister will be pleased to hear and the other directed to the House authorities. Like the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, I find it extraordinary that, under ping-pong arrangements, it is not possible to take part in a debate on something as important as an amendment sent back to your Lordships’ House by the House of Commons on an issue such as genocide without being physically present. To be told that in the same week that we are being told that we should not be here at all unless we really have to be is vexing, to put it mildly. I hope the House authorities will consider that and see whether there is anything that can be done before next Tuesday, as the noble Lord said.

Having made all those points, the Minister will be very pleased to know that it is not now my intention to force this issue to a vote today. I simply thank all those who have taken part in our proceedings. Like the noble Lord, Lord Fox, I say to the House that this is not over yet and there is so much more that can be said and will be said before it can be brought to a resolution. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Baroness Barran]

2: Clause 1, page 5, line 7, at end insert—
“(k) aimed at ensuring that nothing done by the operator in the exercise of the Part 4A code right unnecessarily prevents or inhibits the provision of an electronic communications service by any other operator.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment would require a Part 4A code right to be subject to terms intended to prevent uncompetitive behaviour.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

My Lords, I have tabled this amendment in light of the strength of feeling in both Houses. Throughout the passage of the Bill, the Government have been clear about the intentions and goals of the legislation. We want to make it easier for digital infrastructure providers to access multiple-dwelling buildings so that those living in flats and apartments can access the connectivity they need from the providers they want. We want to ensure that residents are given choice and are able to access fast, reliable connectivity without being limited by their property owner’s silence.

Members of both Houses have raised concerns that consumers could find themselves locked into a provider as a result of this legislation. We continue to believe that such a scenario is unlikely and the legislation as drafted originally prevents it happening. The Bill, for example, does not limit the number of concurrent Part 4A orders that can exist at a property. This allows any resident in the property to search for the provider or service they want and request a service, even in properties where gigabit-capable, full-fibre connections might already exist. That provider is then able to make an application for a Part 4A order via the courts, should the landowner repeatedly fail to respond to requests for access.

Nevertheless, while we are confident that sufficient protections are already in place, we believe there is a benefit in taking a belt-and-braces approach. This amendment ensures that when operators access a property under a Part 4A order the terms on which they will do so will preclude them installing their infrastructure in such a way that would prevent a subsequent operator installing their own apparatus. As with the other terms imposed by a Part 4A order, they will be contained in regulations. Those regulations will be subject to the affirmative resolution procedure and, before they are made, they will have been consulted on with a range of key stakeholders. In this way, we seek to prevent a scenario whereby an operator purposefully installs their network equipment within the property so that it obstructs a second operator in installing theirs and providing a service to the building. I hope that this amendment reassures noble Lords and alleviates their concerns on the matter. I beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I thank noble Lords who spoke in this short debate for their support and reflections. In response to the questions from the noble Lord, Lord Fox, about “unnecessarily” and “nothing”—a level of detail of which your Lordships’ House can be proud—“unnecessarily” is included to allow for the possibility that there might be circumstances in which an operator may have to, by necessity, prevent or inhibit the provision of a service, such as a broadband connection by a subsequent operator. I am happy to put this in writing. Similarly, nothing done by the operator is a protection to make clear that an operator cannot hide behind exercising their Part 4A code right, to do something that would unnecessarily prevent or inhibit the provision of a connection by a subsequent operator.

The key point, as I said in my opening remarks, is that we will be setting out in secondary legislation the terms under which operators will be granted access rights. We have committed to consulting on those terms and it is of the utmost importance that we get that right. The noble Lord also asked how this will impact on real life and the tenant—another important question. A customer can always request an operator of their choice; nothing has changed in the legislation. Nothing in the Bill prevents a second operator requesting code rights from a landlord.

Turning to the noble Lord’s questions about the Government’s ambition in this area, I thank my noble friend Lord Vaizey for highlighting the important progress we have made. The Government are working hard with industry to target a minimum of 85% gigabit-capable coverage by 2025, but will seek to accelerate rollout further to get to 100% as soon as possible We have committed £5 billion to support the delivery of gigabit-capable connections to the hardest-to-reach locations in the country.

My noble friend Lord Vaizey and the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, referred to the further progress needed to facilitate the rollout and welcomed the new consultation on the electronic communications code, which was announced yesterday. We are seeking advice and guidance on a number of potential changes, including addressing unresponsive landowners outside multi-dwelling building environments—a subject debated by your Lordships in earlier stages of the Bill—and supporting operators and landowners to reach mutual agreement that facilitates the deployment of gigabit-capable networks. While the consultation does not propose specific reforms, it sets out a range of possible measures to tackle the issues raised with us about the current code. These include the time it takes for agreements to be completed, the confusion about upgrading and sharing rights, the lack of consistency in the treatment of entirely new agreements and the renewal of expired agreements.

My noble friend Lord Vaizey asked some very particular questions, including about the imposition of obligations on companies to allow others to use their infrastructure. If I may, I will write to my noble friend to clarify those points.

In the words of the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, asked a “blizzard” of questions about diversification. Our diversification strategy was published on 30 November. We were very clear in it that we seek to create a much healthier supply market that is open, flexible and diverse. We have backed that initially with £250 million of investment. In relation to the noble Lord’s other points, I hope I may write to him.

Amendment 2 agreed.

Moved by

[Baroness Barran]

That the Bill do now pass.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

My Lords, as noble Lords will be aware, this piece of legislation, though short in length, has taken many months to reach this stage and has sparked impassioned debate from all sides of this House. It is a Bill that will benefit huge numbers of people, and I appreciate the dedication with which your Lordships have scrutinised it. Our debate and your Lordships’ questioning have exposed important global issues, particularly in relation to human rights, and no one watching the passage of this Bill could doubt the rigour of your Lordships’ scrutiny.

I am particularly grateful for the openness and co-operation shown by Members on the Front Benches opposite: the noble Lords, Lord Stevenson, Lord Livermore, Lord Clement-Jones and Lord Fox. I must of course mention the noble Lord, Lord Alton, from whom I have learned much in our conversations during the passage of the Bill. He has shone a light on some terrible human rights abuses. I also thank his co-signatories: my noble friend Lord Forsyth, the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner, and the noble Lord, Lord Adonis.

I will take this opportunity to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, on his appointment to your Lordships’ Communications and Digital Committee. I thank him for his generous advice behind the scenes and his friendly challenge in the Chamber. I will miss seeing him opposite me, virtually or physically, but look forward to working with his successor.

I am pleased with the shape in which the Bill leaves the House. Once it comes into force, it will ensure that those living in apartments and blocks of flats are supported in accessing fast, reliable and resilient connectivity. I do not need to remind your Lordships how important that is.

Finally, I take the opportunity to thank the Bill team and officials across government who have worked tirelessly and very patiently with this Minister to deliver this important piece of policy. I beg to move.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her kind words. We have enjoyed working with her over this period. The Bill has been an exemplary one in terms of making sure that the House is able to do its job and that the processes necessary to make it fit for legislation once it leaves Parliament are carried out in the best way. That can be done only if there is a spirit of mutual support and trust, and we certainly had that.

I actually took this Bill over at a relatively late stage. Most of the heavy lifting was done initially by my noble friend Lord Griffiths of Burry Port, and the show was kept on the road by Dan Stevens, our legislative assistant, whose skills and expertise I have drawn on mercilessly. I join the Minister in thanking members of the Bill team, who made themselves very much available and answered our detailed questions in the private meetings that we had.

This is a small but important Bill. As the Minister said, it will affect a lot of people; it will make their lives better and give them access to what has become a utility necessary for modern living. It has been scrutinised carefully in this House, and I am confident that it will play a part in helping to achieve a gigabit-enabled economy across the whole country—something that we need as soon as possible. There remains a lot to do, as we picked up today, but it is good to hear that the consultations on the remaining issues are taking place, particularly on the rollout of 5G and the development of fibre to the home. I urge the department to up its game on this and on a number of other issues that we talked about, and I will be watching from the sidelines.

Television Licence Evasion

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Tuesday 26th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hoey]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to introduce legislation to decriminalise television licence evasion.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government’s response to the consultation states that

“decriminalisation will remain under active consideration while more work is undertaken to understand the impact of alternative enforcement schemes.”

We remain concerned that a criminal sanction for TV licence evasion is increasingly disproportionate and unfair in a modern public service broadcasting system. However, we recognise that changing the sanction would have wide-ranging impacts for licence fee payers and has the potential for significantly higher fines and costs for the small minority who evade.

[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I am glad that the Minister repeated what the Secretary of State said last week—that he remained

“concerned that a criminal sanction for TV licence evasion is increasingly disproportionate and unfair in a modern public service broadcasting system.”—[Official Report, Commons, 21/1/20; col. 48WS.]

How then can the Minister possibly justify the continued harassment, intimidation and bullying by Capita of the many elderly, vulnerable households just trying to survive in the midst of a pandemic? Is it not time that the Government recognised that older people are turning off the BBC, younger people have never even turned it on, and the licence fee itself represents a bygone age and should be abolished and replaced by a choice-based alternative?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Baroness covers a number of points. On her first point, I absolutely sympathise with the issue she raises, although we have to recognise that the BBC is independent in the way that it enforces and collects the licence fee, and that levels of evasion are the lowest in Europe.

[Lord Moynihan (Con)]

My Lords, as so often, the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, is right. I am glad that the Minister agrees that a criminal sanction, including cases of imprisonment for TV licence evasion, is disproportionate. Does she agree that it is regrettable that we live in an age where some 91 people have been given custodial sentences for failing to pay fines in respect of the non- payment of TV licences in recent years, and that a change to a civil penalty system should take place now, rather than wait until the licence fee review is completed?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The figures that my noble friend refers to—the 91 people receiving a custodial sentence—are for the period 2015-18, and those numbers have declined significantly in recent years. In relation to a civil sanction, it needs to be sufficiently robust to underpin the legal requirement to hold a TV licence, and, as I mentioned, it might result in higher financial penalties. We are keeping this matter open for further review.

[Lord Birt (CB) [V]]

My Lords, in recent times we have seen a rapid decline in the funding of one of our greatest achievements as a country, admired and envied the world over: British public service broadcasting. Over the past 15 years, investment in original UK production has been cut by 30%. Does the Minister accept that addressing this massive decline should be top of the agenda when the BBC’s licence fee is soon reviewed?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Lord makes an important point. In the review of the licence fee—which, as he knows, we are committed to until 2027—a very wide range of issues will be taken into account, including, of course, the importance of our independent production sector. As he understands better than I, it has been enormously successful and vibrant, thanks to a great deal of other investment as well as that from the BBC.

[Baroness Blackstone (Ind Lab)]

My Lords, can the Minister say why on earth the Government intend to keep decriminalisation under consideration in the 2022-27 licence fee discussion? This is really perverse, since the Perry review said the current system of sanctions is “fair and proportionate” and that civil-based systems were not a viable alternative. Moreover, the overwhelming majority of those consulted recently opposed it. Does the Minister not agree that this is a distraction from the important reform agenda that the BBC is adopting?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Baroness is right that there is a very important reform agenda. In their responses, the general public were roughly split evenly; those reporting through campaign groups were definitely —though I see the noble Baroness is shaking her head —in favour of the status quo. But we will not allow this to distract us; there is a great deal of effort going into looking at the current reform programme at the BBC.

[Lord McNally (LD) [V]]

My Lords, does the Minister not agree that it is time to stop raiding the BBC licence fee for worthy causes when such actions do irreparable damage to the BBC’s capacity to maintain its support of our creative industries? Would the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, and the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, not be better employed supporting the charity StepChange in its campaign to have Clause 34 in the upcoming Financial Services Bill 2019-21, which gives statutory support and advice to those who get into debt?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

My Lords, there is no raid going on of the BBC; quite the reverse. We are working towards much more transparency around the licence fee settlement and my right honourable friend the Secretary of State has written to the director-general of the BBC asking for a breakdown of spend against the five charter purposes, so that we can work with a transparent and clear focus.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, last week’s announcement heaps uncertainty and unfairness on the BBC as it keeps the threat of a further loss of revenue in play, instead of following the clear message from the recent consultation and the Perry review that the current system is the most effective of the available options. Can the Minister confirm that no further action will be taken in this area until agreement has been reached between the Government and the BBC on the licence fee level for the remainder of the charter period?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

Perhaps it would help if I quote directly from the Government’s response to the consultation in relation to the noble Lord’s valid and important point. We said that:

“The government considers that a future decision on decriminalising TV licence evasion would benefit from a clearer picture on the wider drivers of BBC income in the face of market and other trends.”


So, we need a rounded picture of those issues on which to take a decision.

[Lord Flight (Con) [V]]

Do the Government agree that legislation decriminalising TV licence evasion would, in practice, render paying for a licence optional and constitute a halfway house towards getting rid of the licence?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I do not entirely agree with my noble friend but he is right that it risks sending the wrong signal to the very small minority who seek to evade payment. We feel that it is more constructive to look at ways in which the BBC can support those on low incomes to pay the licence fee.

[Viscount Colville of Culross (CB) [V]]

Can the Minister confirm that the DCMS response to the decriminalisation of the licence fee found that, as of 20 June 2020, there were zero people in prison for failing to pay the fine in respect of non-payment of the TV licence in England and Wales? Can she also confirm that the National Debtline advice to people who do not pay fines is that only in the most serious cases of non-payment and after every avenue is exhausted can a judge then send them to prison?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Viscount is right —my notes say 30 June rather than 20 June, but we will not argue about that. In relation to his second point, that is absolutely correct; about 0.6% of those non-payers were prosecuted, which is the lowest in Europe.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)]

I call the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris of Aberavon. Lord Morris? No, he is not here. I call the noble Lord, Lord Foster of Bath.

[Lord Foster of Bath (LD) [V]]

My Lords, over the last few months the Rupert Murdoch-owned radio station talkRADIO has been using its broadcasting licence to wage war against the BBC licence fee and its collection. Last week saw a particularly egregious example, which was blatant and inaccurate propaganda, designed to pursue commercial self-interest. Does the Minister agree that if it is to maintain its reputation as the guardian of impartiality and accuracy in broadcasting, Ofcom should investigate and act?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Lord is right that it is absolutely Ofcom’s responsibility to address issues such as the one he has just raised.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed. We now come to the fourth Oral Question.

Social Capital

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Monday 25th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Haskel]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the report by the Office for National Statistics Social capital in the UK: 2020, published on 20 February 2020, what steps they are taking to rebuild social capital.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, social capital is the fabric that binds our communities together. Sources, such as the ONS and our Community Life COVID-19 Re-contact Survey, shape the steps that build communities. Covid shows that there is much to build on. The number of people who informally volunteer increased to 47% during the pandemic. This Government were elected to level up the country: our £4 billion levelling-up fund, our £1.5 billion shared prosperity fund and the £1.57 billion culture recovery fund, as well as a raft of other commitments, will help build social capital across communities, as we build back better.

[Lord Haskel (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, the ONS report says that the trend has not been good, and that was before the pandemic. The pandemic has forced us into more remote and flexible hybrid working, and the effect has fallen unevenly across society, increasing inequality. Research suggests that social capital boosts well-being and efficiency by reducing transaction and monitoring costs and building trust, but does this not then call for yet more effort on behalf of the Government? The current effort seems inadequate.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I genuinely disagree with the noble Lord’s last point. He is right that the impact of the pandemic has been uneven and hit the poorest hardest, and young people particularly hard, but I commend to him the Chancellor’s Statement at the spending review, which is a long list of major financial commitments.

[The Lord Bishop of Gloucester]

Churches and other faith communities bring together a diversity of people across all ages and backgrounds, and thus are often a strong source of social capital, as well as spiritual capital, as we have seen during the pandemic. Will the Minister say what Her Majesty’s Government are doing, both financially and in other ways, to enable local and faith communities to invest in and rebuild their social capital, as we emerge from this pandemic?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The right reverend Prelate makes an important point. My noble friend Lord Greenhalgh has been working hard, in his role as Faith Minister, to bring faith communities together. I am happy to share an obvious example with the House, which is the role that faith groups are playing to support the vaccine rollout, and to manage misinformation and disinformation about the impact of vaccines.

[Lord O'Shaughnessy (Con) [V]]

My Lords, while young people have mainly been spared the ravages of disease during the pandemic, they have suffered the economic and social consequences of the pandemic response, which we have had to follow, probably more than anyone else. Does my noble friend agree that we need to rebuild social capital and offer this group hope? Will she endorse the proposal of a funded year to serve, which was offered and suggested by the Repairing our Social Fabric programme at Onward? I declare my interest as the chair of that programme.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I absolutely agree with my noble friend about the impact the pandemic has had on young people. That is one of the reasons that the Chancellor announced a review of youth provision outside schools, which will be reporting in May this year. I thank my noble friend and his colleagues at Onward for providing excellent analysis and research on the year to serve, and I am happy to continue a further conversation with him about that proposal.

[Lord Bird (CB)]

Is the Minister aware of small organisations such as Social Echo, which works in Cambridgeshire and Huntingdonshire? I declare an interest, because I am part of the team that put it together. It has been building on the enormous social kindness that broke out last year and is trying to stitch organisations and businesses together—the estate agent with the homeless organisation, et cetera. They are the backbone on which we have to rebuild the social capital that we are talking about.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I agree with the noble Lord and thank him for his tireless work in this area. I share his recognition of the outpouring of social kindness. Our efforts, in the funding that we have provided the voluntary sector in particular, have predominantly focused on small local organisations, for exactly the reasons that the noble Lord sets out.

[Lord Hendy (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, the fragmentation of society, starkly illustrated by the report, is the consequence of replacing the ethic of public service with that of private profit, of privatisation, outsourcing, austerity, the closure of libraries and youth clubs, ending rent controls and taking measures against collective bargaining, causing the real value of wages to stagnate and poverty for 4 million in working families. I assume that the Minister will confirm that there will be no U-turns on these damaging policies.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The issues that the noble Lord raises are more complicated, as I am sure he knows, than some of the limited examples that he has given. I commend to him the work that the Government are doing, particularly on social impact, the use of the Public Services (Social Value) Act in all government procurement and the emerging hybrid model of profit and purpose.

[Lord German (LD) [V]]

My Lords, the limited research available during this pandemic suggests that the increase in neighbourly kindness and community activity has been more prevalent in better-off areas. If the Government are intent on levelling up, how much of the levelling-up fund are they proposing to spend on social infrastructure, given that in most of the examples that I can see the Government are rightly dealing with economic disadvantage—that is, infrastructure and economic activity? How are the Government proposing to redress the imbalance in social capital?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Lord is absolutely right; it is not just about what we do and what we spend on but how we do it and who we involve. I point the noble Lord to the shared prosperity fund, on which we will get more detail in the spring, where there is a clear ambition to invest in civic institutions and community-owned assets and give that sense of connection and agency that every community deserves.

[Baroness Sater (Con) [V]]

My Lords, participation in voluntary organisations can be crucial in the development of social capital. Hearing the stories of communities coming together and volunteers—including those who have never volunteered before—helping their neighbours has been extraordinary. We must not lose all this good will and enthusiasm that we have seen over the last year. Could my noble friend the Minister reassure me that the Government are adapting and innovating fast enough to continue growing our national culture of volunteering?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

My noble friend raises a very important point. The Government are absolutely committed to trying to capitalise on the surge of good will that she describes and build a real volunteering legacy. We are developing a new volunteering strategy and, within that, reviewing a number of options, including a volunteering passport, and really trying to understand where the need for volunteers is greatest.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Barran, is also Minister for Loneliness. Does this ONS report signal any adjustment to the Government’s current loneliness strategy, which was set up in memory of Jo Cox MP? If so, can she point to any policy areas that might be adjusted?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I start by saying that it is an enormous honour to be the Minister for Loneliness. My inbox on loneliness is fuller than on any other subject that I am responsible for, and it is something that absolutely touches every one of us. Our strategy will continue predominantly along the same lines; namely, talking about loneliness and the stigma, and making sure that funding goes to organisations that connect people. During the pandemic we have brought together a group of around 70 organisations in our tackling loneliness network that are advising us on particular themes in relation to young people, digital, place and older people.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Lexden) (Con)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has now elapsed.

UK Musicians: EU Visa Arrangements

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Wednesday 20th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, despite the helpful exchanges on this topic yesterday, this seems to be about how DCMS can square the Home Office red lines on freedom of movement. We need greater transparency. Will the Minister place copies of all correspondence between the EU and the UK on this issue in the Library? Secondly, we need trust. Can she confirm that the Government will take full account of the views of the ISM and others that the short-term business visitor model is not appropriate and that any final agreement for visitors from the EU to the UK should be based on a 90-day permitted paid engagement model? Finally, we need a plan. Will the Minister spell out what the original UK proposal was and commit to writing to us about what the new negotiating objective will be—assuming that the EU’s door is indeed still open?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for his questions. I do not think the red lines were between DCMS and the Home Office; I think they were between the UK and the EU. We proposed a tailored deal for musicians and other cultural professionals and the EU did not accept it. On the correspondence and the discussions, my noble friend the Minister for Digital and Culture said yesterday in the other place that she would talk to BEIS and Home Office colleagues with a view to publishing the details of those discussions. On the noble Lord’s final point, we are consulting extensively with the sector to understand what it needs to be able to thrive once we emerge from the pandemic.

[Lord McNally (LD) [V]]

My Lords, that explanation just does not fit with all the briefings that have gone on on both sides of the channel about what really happened. What really happened is that the Government were inflexible in the TCA for fear of the European Research Group and other Brexit zealots anxious to protect the purity of Brexit. The Government have got to go back to the table on this. My advice to musicians would be to mobilise the millions of supporters, particularly among the young, who should be outraged at the betrayal of this important sector.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I am surprised at the noble Lord’s remarks, because our inflexibility, as he describes it, was simply that we tried very hard in the negotiations to stand up for Britain’s brilliant cultural and creative sectors, and to reflect their request to us about what they needed from the deal. Perhaps the remark about inflexibility could be pointed elsewhere.

[Baroness Bull (CB)]

My Lords, the EU has visa-waiver agreements in place with some 27 countries that allow 90 days’ visa-free travel within any 180 days and that specifically permit artists to undertake paid work on an ad hoc basis. In contrast to responses yesterday, an EU official quoted today has said that the phrase “ad hoc” covers touring and could, by negotiation, have been extended to support staff. Given that, can the Minister say whether the Government will move quickly to explore a similar agreement for the UK alongside the trade deal? Does she agree that taking back control of our borders was surely never intended to leave UK artists with less freedom to pursue their craft than their creative peers in, say, Tonga, St Lucia or the Federated States of Micronesia?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I can only reiterate to the noble Baroness that our understanding of the EU’s offer is not as she describes it. I also repeat the words of my honourable friend the Minister for Culture yesterday, when she said that, if there was an open door to talk about these things, she would be the first person through it. However, I do not think that we should raise people’s hopes about this. As the sector has said, it needs clarity, not recrimination, and that is what we are working on.

[Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne (Con)]

Does the Minister recognise the huge value of music globally to mental and physical human health? As that has been a matter of profound importance during the pandemic, as it will be following it, this really matters. If so, will she persuade the Government and all departments to prioritise music as one of the major attractions of the UK globally? We are a fount of music, or the head for music, in terms of performance, practising, invention and teaching, and this could be one of the biggest attractions to the UK from people around the world.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

My noble friend makes some powerful points. She is quite right that UK music is one of our great success stories, generating almost £6 billion in GVA annually. In relation to mental and physical health, we have worked together with Arts Council England, the National Academy for Social Prescribing and NHS England to set up the thriving communities fund, which will bring all forms of art to communities to help them recover from Covid.

[Baroness Bakewell (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, many, if not most, musicians are freelance or self-employed workers. As such, they are among the 3 million taxpayers who have fallen through the net of the Government’s financial support during the pandemic. Will the Government and the Minister please explain why they cannot at least support musicians in this way?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I understand the noble Baroness’s concerns in this area, and we definitely continue to explore routes through it. However, I reassure her that direct funding has gone from Arts Council England to freelancers and, furthermore, to some of the benevolent societies that support them.

[Lord Vaizey of Didcot (Con)]

My Lords, it is very depressing that the careers of thousands of British-based musicians have been affected by the Government’s devotion to ending free movement. I have no doubt at all that there is blame on both sides, but we are where we are. I am sure that Ministers will attempt, as best they can, to renegotiate this lamentable situation. Perhaps I may make a practical suggestion. Given that when our musicians travel to Europe, they are now in the same position as when they travel to the United States, will the Minister have a conversation with her ministerial colleagues about committing resources in terms of both officials and money to create an online one-stop shop to help musicians who still, amazingly, might wish to tour in Europe to navigate the new bureaucracy?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for his suggestion. We are exploring all ways of making this as simple and straightforward as possible, but he will be aware that each member state has its own regulations in this regard. However, our ambition is clear.

[Lord Wigley (PC) [V]]

My Lords, I draw attention to my registered interests. Does the Minister accept that this wholly avoidable mess turns the clock back half a century, leaves musicians, particularly freelance soloists, with unnecessary obstacles to working professionally in EU countries, and imposes road blocks for European musicians wishing to perform in Britain? Is this not a narrow-minded approach that not only undermines our musicians and concert organisers but shows how inward-looking post-Brexit Britain is fast becoming?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I reassure the noble Lord that our negotiators did everything in their power to avoid the current situation. We are incredibly disappointed that the EU neither proposed nor would accept a tailored deal for musicians. We are trying to give those brilliant and talented people the clarity that they need to continue to thrive.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, the noble Baroness has often told the House—indeed, she has just done so again—that the Government are committed to supporting musicians, but I have to tell her from personal experience that they do not feel supported. They feel shocked and scared. The EU trade deal actively harms their interests, and they do not understand why. But since, as the noble Lord, Lord Vaizey, has just said, we are where we are, will she confirm that the Government will now engage urgently in further negotiations with the EU and with member states to ensure that the livelihoods of UK musicians are not seriously damaged?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

With regard to the noble Baroness’s broader point about support for musicians, the culture recovery fund has already dispersed over £168 million to more than 600 musical groups and venues, so I think that our support for musicians is clear. In terms of reopening negotiations with the EU, the noble Baroness’s party, and my own, very recently voted for the deal, which included all the points that we are discussing today. Our offer still stands but, in the meantime, we are pursuing simplification and clarification on a bilateral basis with individual member states.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Duncan of Springbank) (Con)]

My Lords, I am afraid that the time allowed for this Question has now elapsed.

European Union: Visa-free Touring for Musicians

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Tuesday 19th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper; in so doing, I declare my interests as listed in the register.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government recognise the importance of the UK’s thriving cultural industries and pushed for ambitious arrangements for performers and artists to be able to work across Europe after the end of freedom of movement. During the negotiation, the EU tabled text regarding the paid activities that can be conducted without a visa. These proposals would not have addressed our sector’s concerns; they were non-binding, did not include touring or technical staff and did not address work permits. Our proposals, which the EU has admitted to rejecting, were based on the views of the music industry and would have allowed musicians to travel and perform in the UK and the EU more easily, without needing work permits.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB) [V]]

I thank the Minister for that reply. I have an email from Guy Verhofstadt which rather puts the boot on the other foot. It details how the UK put its obsession with mobility before a 90-day reciprocal offer. The noble Lord, Lord True, has made it clear that there will be no imminent revisiting of this situation. Given this, can the noble Baroness offer some glimmer of hope to musicians, who generate £5.8 billion for the UK economy? Will Oliver Dowden find financial assistance? Even if he does, how will that ameliorate the loss of cultural exchange, which is so vital to the arts?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Lord is right to recognise the incredible contribution of our cultural sectors, including musicians and the connected creative sectors. The Secretary of State is working very hard; he has a round table with sector institutions tomorrow to understand their concerns in detail. We are working with the sector to try to distil and simplify the rules which will apply, but we are committed to ensuring it has the right support at the right time to continue to thrive once we emerge from the pandemic.

[Lord Eatwell (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, did the Government make any assessment of the impact the free trade agreement would have on musicians touring the European Union? If they bothered to make such an assessment, will they publish the details right away?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I am slightly taken aback at the noble Lord’s tone; the Government have been incredibly committed to this area. Obviously, there were multiple complex issues that needed to be considered in these negotiations, including the commitments to take back control of our borders and to make sure that our creative industries continue to flourish. We remain entirely committed to both.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD) [V]]

My Lords, touring musicians and creative artists are deeply angry at this negotiating failure. Is not the root of the problem refusal by the Home Office to extend permitted paid engagement here to 90 days for EU artists, meaning as a result that work permits will now be required in many member states for our artists? Will the Government urgently rethink this and renegotiate on the instrument and equipment carnet and on trucking issues?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

There were a number of drawbacks to the EU proposals, which did not meet the requirements of our sectors, as I mentioned; they covered only ad hoc performances, they were non-binding and did not address technical staff or work permits. Our door absolutely remains open to reviewing these points, but in the meantime we will do everything we can to support our sectors.

[Lord Black of Brentwood (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I declare my interest as chairman of the Royal College of Music. Will my noble friend acknowledge that the current impasse will have a profoundly damaging impact on UK students, who need to travel to progress their careers but, as they will not earn large fees at that stage of their lives, will find themselves priced out of the market because of expensive and complex visa requirements? As there seems to be political will on both sides to ensure that musicians can continue to work freely in Europe, do we not owe it to students, above all else, to get back to the negotiating table to sort this out?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

My noble friend raises a very important point. There are two different issues here: on going back to the negotiating table, as I said to the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, our door is absolutely open but, in the short term, understanding the picture for students and how we can support them is part of our work—if there are specifics my noble friend would like to share with me, I will endeavour to make sure that fellow Ministers are briefed on them.

[Lord Aberdare (CB) [V]]

It has been disheartening to hear the UK and the EU blaming each other for the failure to reach agreement on this. Does the Minister agree that a more constructive approach would focus on how a deal could be fashioned on the basis of the positive ideas that each side has put forward? How soon might the Government initiate such a process and, rather than just having an open door, knock on the door of the EU to pursue it?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I am sure the noble Lord is right that mutual blame probably does not get us much further forward. However, as I said, in the meantime we are doing everything we can to try to simplify the procedures now in place and to understand the needs of the sector so it can continue to flourish and thrive.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, the Minister’s opening response was very carefully crafted but, reading between the lines, it seems the creative industries have lost out in an unseemly internal government squabble. If the door is still open for discussion, what are the Government doing to develop an agreed position which will also deliver the backing of the Home Office and Border Force?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The Government had an agreed position, which was to extend the list of permitted activities for short-term business visitors. The EU rejected that.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD) [V]]

My Lords, we understand that there are different views as to what actually happened but given that musicians from the continent have been performing in Britain for the past 250 years, and that British musicians now perform on the continent on a regular basis, this is a win-win situation. Cannot the Government therefore take an initiative to reopen negotiations on this topic, which would clearly be of benefit to both sides to succeed in? I declare an interest as a trustee of the VOCES8 Foundation, which provides not only performance but musical education in France, Germany, Italy and Belgium.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I am afraid that I will have to disappoint the noble Lord, as I have done on previous questions on this point. We secured a deal that delivers on the result of the referendum. The agreement is not going to be renegotiated. Our job now is to implement it as well as possible.

[The Lord Bishop of Bristol [V]]

My Lords, senior musicians I spoke to this weekend described experiences of agonising paperwork and fees, and sense that foreign promoters are already hesitant to offer engagements to UK groups. How do the Government intend to ensure that the increased costs associated with obtaining permits and administrating these tours will not, as a result, exclude all but the most privileged?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

We are absolutely determined to make sure that we protect all parts of the cultural and creative ecosystem. As I have said, the Secretary of State is meeting organisations tomorrow and we continue to work closely to understand their needs, so that as soon as touring can recommence after the pandemic we do so with confidence.

[Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con)]

My Lords, touring is not peripheral to the arts but central and vital—the basis of a major export industry and a vital showcase for the United Kingdom. If we could just lay aside the unfortunate blame game of recent days, can this please be sorted out as a matter of the utmost urgency?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I can say only to my noble friend that I hope that the Secretary of State’s round table tomorrow constitutes utmost urgency.

[The Earl of Clancarty (CB)]

My Lords, at the very least, we urgently need a 90-day supplementary agreement, which will cover most touring. Will the Government acknowledge that mode 4 should not be explored to resolve this issue? It is clear now that mode 4 is not going to work. There is no precedent in any other agreement for mode 4 to allow creative work and touring. A supplementary agreement should be sought.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I can say only to the noble Earl that we tried hard in these negotiations to make the case based on the evidence given to us by the sectors that we represent, and the EU rejected those suggestions.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Garden of Frognal) (LD)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has now elapsed. I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord McNicol of West Kilbride, that we did not have time for his supplementary question.