Telecommunications Legislation: Human Rights

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Tuesday 21st July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Alton of Liverpool]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government, following their announcement about the involvement of Huawei in UK telecommunications, what steps they are taking to include a human rights threshold in telecommunications legislation.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, we want respect for human rights to be at the centre of all business that takes place in this country. As I said on Report of the Telecommunications Infrastructure (Leasehold Property) Bill, we are committed to bringing back the matter of human rights and modern slavery at Third Reading. The Government are also taking action to ensure the security and resilience of our telecoms networks, with our recent announcement on Huawei and work to develop the telecoms security Bill.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB) [V]]

My Lords, has the Minister had the opportunity to watch the video recording I sent her last Wednesday, which appears to show shackled and blindfolded Uighur Muslims in China being led from trains to camps? The Board of Deputies of British Jews has stated:

“The World will neither forgive nor forget a genocide against the Uighur people.”


The Foreign Secretary has said that this is,

“reminiscent of something not seen for a long time.”

What progress has the Minister made in pursing my request to ask British Telecom how it verifies Huawei’s denials of the use of slave labour or the use of Huawei technology in oppressing Uighur people?

[Baroness Barran]

It is impossible to have watched the footage to which the noble Lord referred without a sense of horror and deep concern. As my noble friend Lord Ahmad said in answer to an earlier Question, the Government will not look away from human rights abuses in Xinjiang. We are working actively with the Home Office and the Public Bill Office to work out what can be within scope for an amendment on the issues the noble Lord raises about the supply chain.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, when the Minister comes back at Third Reading on the telecommunications Bill with an amendment, will she bear in mind that although the Government have taken action to exclude Huawei from the 5G work we still need a human rights threshold in order to exert leverage on China to change its current appalling human rights practices, including forced organ harvesting?

[Baroness Barran]

The Government have been very clear. My right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary yesterday used the term “gross human rights abuses.” We will pursue a number of avenues on this because human rights clearly do not apply purely in the telecoms supply chain, but much more widely.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord McNicol of West Kilbride) (Lab)]

I gently remind noble Lords to keep their questions and contributions brief so that we can get as many in as possible.

[Lord Truscott (Ind Lab) [V]]

My Lords, human rights should be integrated in all UK trade policy, not just telecoms. What work are Her Majesty’s Government doing on this?

[Baroness Barran]

The noble Lord is right. They absolutely should be in all trade policy. Announcements were made yesterday by my right honourable friend the Home Secretary. We are also doing a great deal of work on the modern slavery legislation. A consultation is out at the moment about modern slavery and the supply chain, and the Home Office will report on that later this summer.

[Lord Shinkwin (Con)]

My Lords, I was privileged to speak recently with Nathan Law, the Hong Kong democracy campaigner. Given his assertion that companies such as Huawei serve the interests of the Chinese Communist Party, and that we know from the footage at the weekend that that includes the reported use of slave labour in concentration camps, does my noble friend agree with Marie van der Zyl, the president of the Board of Deputies of British Jews, that

“The World will neither forgive nor forget a genocide against the Uighur people”?


What more can we do to stop this genocide?

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[Baroness Barran]

We have been very clear about the level of concern about human rights abuses of the Uighur Muslims in Xinjiang province. We have recently announced important new moves on extradition and arms sales in relation to Hong Kong, and we continue to be at the forefront of raising these issues in multilateral organisations, including the UN Human Rights Council, most recently at the end of June.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, when the Secretary of State announced a change in Huawei’s status last week he also said that full-fibre and older networks will be treated differently from 5G in terms of their technology, security and vendors. Will the Minister expand on the remit and timetable of the consultation that the Secretary of State announced? Will she undertake to ensure that vendors’ human rights positions will be part of that consultation?

[Baroness Barran]

The remit of the full-fibre broadband operators to which the noble Lord refers has been defined as a short technical consultation to understand what alternatives there are in the supply chain to balance the risk of delay and an unwise reliance on a single provider.

[Baroness Helic (Con) [V]]

My Lords, given the widespread reports of the Chinese authorities forcing members of the Uighur community into forced labour in the Xinjiang region, including in the manufacture of masks and PPE, can my noble friend tell the House what assessment the Government have made of the risk that any of the United Kingdom’s or UK-based companies’ supply chains could include products manufactured using forced labour? What guidance has been given to UK companies in this regard? Are the Government considering mirroring the sanctions that the US has recently imposed on Chinese companies allegedly involved in the abhorrent abuse of human rights?

[Baroness Barran]

The Government share my noble friend’s abhorrence at this kind of abuse of human rights. We have led the way with our modern slavery legislation. Some 16,000 companies a year now make modern slavery statements, but we are also aware, as is my noble friend, of how hard it is to track abuses through the supply chain. We have set out a clear modern slavery assessment tool and regularly direct companies to the overseas business risk guidance when they consider operating in areas where human rights abuses are alleged.

[Baroness O'Loan (CB) [V]]

My Lords, given the absolute denial by the Chinese ambassador on Sunday of the fact that millions of members of the Chinese minorities are being deprived of their fundamental human rights in Xinjiang, can the Minister assure the House that Her Majesty’s Government will seek evidence of compliance with international human rights law by China before Huawei is afforded any further opportunities for trade with the United Kingdom?

[Baroness Barran]

The decisions on Huawei’s place in the 5G network were driven by security considerations. As a Government, we clearly have multiple responsibilities, of which national security comes highest. The advice we received from the National Cyber Security Centre changed and therefore our policy has changed.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, the Secretary of State said last week that the Government have a clear and ambitious diversification strategy to replace Huawei. On closer inspection, that rather appears to be based on persuading the existing suppliers, Nokia and Ericsson, to step up and hoping that Samsung and NEC will get involved. Given our world-leading creative industries, can the Minister list which British companies have been approached?

[Baroness Barran]

I fear I cannot list the British companies but I am more than happy to write to the noble Lord. I am not sure whether that information is in the public domain. However, I reassure him that my honourable friend the Minister for Digital Infrastructure is actively working on this as we speak.

[Lord Beith (LD)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that a regime that is contemptuous of the human rights of its own citizens and of international standards of human rights will have no restraint about abusing the human rights of UK citizens or persons resident in the UK who may have fled from that regime when it has access to telecommunications systems as a means of doing so?

[Baroness Barran]

I understand the noble Lord’s point but we work very closely with GCHQ and the National Cyber Security Centre and take significant advice on how we can protect our citizens. We keep that under constant review.

[The Deputy Speaker]

My Lords, the time allocated for this Question has now elapsed.

Digital Platforms: Impact on Democracy

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Thursday 16th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Holmes of Richmond]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the impact of digital platforms on the functioning of democracy.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

Digital platforms can play a positive role in public debate, helping to connect people and hold our political figures to account. The Government welcome the steps that some of the major social media companies have taken to help users make more informed decisions, including increasing transparency and working with independent fact-checkers. However, clearly they need to do more, and we continue to work with them to develop solutions that promote our democratic values.

Perhaps I may note on behalf of the department how much we welcome the report from the Lords Democracy and Digital Technologies Committee. I thank, in particular, the noble Lord, Lord Puttnam, for having chaired it and my noble friend for being part of it. I thank all who contributed.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Non-Afl) [V]]

My Lords, does my noble friend the Minister agree that platforms must be made responsible for the content they push, promote and amplify? It should be a case of “We support freedom of speech; there is no right to freedom of reach.” Will she give the House a hint as to when the online harms Bill will appear, and will she assure the House that none of the provisions in the Bill will be unwittingly traded away in any upcoming trade deals?

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[Baroness Barran]

In relation to my noble friend’s first point, we have been very clear that the framework we will use for the upcoming legislation will be that social media platforms have a duty of care to those using them and that there should be an element of proportionality in that; that is, the higher the harm, the greater the duty. In terms of the legislation’s timing, we will respond formally to the consultation in the next few months and legislation will follow that.

[The Archbishop of Canterbury [V]]

My Lords, I declare an interest in that certain funds across the Church of England and the Anglican Communion hold shares in social media companies, and vast numbers of churches and Anglicans, including me, use platforms for the promotion of the Church’s work. The Minister will be aware that, although social media has immense power for good, some social media platforms are used to incite hatred, stirring up social disruption and even extreme violence in some parts of the world, as I have recently heard from bishops in the DRC. What steps are Her Majesty’s Government looking at to motivate and encourage responsibility to be taken by such platforms to prevent their use in everything from hate speech to genocide?

[Baroness Barran]

The most reverend Primate captures the essence of both the potential benefits and the potential risks of social media platforms—a problem that arises particularly in countries where they represent almost the exclusive source of news. We will set out in great detail what we will do in relation to all those elements in our response to the consultation and then in the upcoming legislation. However, we anticipate that the international aspects will require intensive international collaboration to be effective.

[Lord Trimble (Con)]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, on raising this issue. For me, the issue is still open and the jury is out, and we shall see how these things develop. I suggest that noble Lords should emulate the Conservative Party in 1945, which accepted the result of the election, which brought in a reformist Government. They should realise that the recent election that we have had has the potential to change the state of our democracy and should be treated with more respect than some noble Lords have given it over recent weeks.

[Baroness Barran]

I am happy to agree with my noble friend that we should accept the result of the recent election.

[Baroness Kidron (CB) [V]]

The United Kingdom is home to ground-breaking domestic legislation—such as the recently passed age-appropriate design code and the upcoming online harms Bill—that seeks to protect children online. However, the protections that these measures offer are at risk from an aggressive lobbying effort that is leveraging the US-UK trade negotiations and might undermine our domestic regulation. In doing so, it is undermining promises made to an electorate who have voted repeatedly for a Government who have promised to protect children online. This is in a context where today, right across the BBC, we see programming highlighting the risks to children online, including a 50% rise in child sexual abuse material during Covid. What steps is the DCMS taking to ensure that UK children are protected in the US-UK trade talks, and will the Minister be willing to liaise with the Secretary of State for Trade so that I and other concerned parliamentarians can put the case clearly for a carve-out in the trade deal to protect UK children from online harms?

[Baroness Barran]

My Lords, protecting children online is perhaps the greatest priority in our online harms legislation. Obviously, we are working very hard to understand the interaction between our trade policy and our online harms policy in future trade agreements, but we stand by our online harms commitment and nothing in the US trade deal will affect that. I am more than happy to do my best to liaise with colleagues in the Department for International Trade, as the noble Baroness suggests.

[Lord Wills (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I recognise what the Minister said earlier about the duty of care but will she now rule out placing explicit obligations on social media companies to police advertisements with political content on their platforms? To save time, a simple “yes” or “no” would be sufficient as an answer.

[Baroness Barran]

I cannot give a simple “yes” or “no” at this time; all these things will be considered in detail, as I have mentioned already.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD) [V]]

My Lords, the Select Committee chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Puttnam, rightly says:

“The digital and social media landscape is dominated by two behemoths—Facebook and Google … Platforms’ decisions about what content they remove or stop promoting through their algorithms set the de facto limits of free expression online”—


a concern expressed by Facebook’s own recent audit. The Minister will be aware of the boycott of Facebook, Twitter and Instagram by leading companies over their approach to hate speech and fake news. Will she now ensure that all government departments join that boycott?

[Baroness Barran]

I would hope that government departments are putting nothing on Facebook or any other platform other than helpful and accurate information, so I cannot give the noble Lord that guarantee.

[Lord Howell of Guildford (Con) [V]]

My Lords, my question may be more for Parliament than for Ministers, but does my noble friend the Minister nevertheless agree that, with a highly informed, although also often sadly misinformed, and digitally connected electorate, Parliament itself badly needs to strengthen its committees, where there can be proper and sustained inquisition in the face of a hugely expanded and much more intrusive Executive, and where the increasingly visible dangers of growing presidential, technocratic and much too centralised government—none of which sit easily with genuine democracy—can be effectively scrutinised and curbed?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Barran]

I cannot comment more widely on committees but, judging by the report produced by your Lordships’ committee in this area, it has been an exemplar of rigour.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I join others in congratulating my noble friend Lord Puttnam and his committee on their excellent report. As it says in paragraph 294, the Government already have the powers to introduce a requirement to include digital imprints on online political adverts. They have already consulted and committed to action in 2019; indeed, this is already the law in Scotland and it can be done by secondary legislation. The case is overwhelming. Will the Minister explain when we can expect this legislation?

[Baroness Barran]

I believe that this will form part of the online harms legislation.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Faulkner of Worcester) (Lab)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has now elapsed. I apologise to the three noble Lords who were not able to ask their supplementary questions.

Covid-19: Performing Arts

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Monday 13th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. In doing so, I draw attention to my interests as listed in the register.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government recognise how severely the cultural sector has been hit by Covid-19. On 5 July, we announced a £1.57 billion support package for key cultural organisations, to help them through this pandemic. The funding will provide targeted support to organisations across a range of sectors including performing arts, theatres, museums and galleries, heritage sites, live music venues and independent cinema. It will protect cultural assets of international, national and regional importance, and prevent the loss of the valuable cultural fabric from our towns and regions.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall [V]]

My Lords, I of course acknowledge with gratitude the scale of last week’s announcement, but there is urgent need for further clarity about whether the new funds will do anything to address the plight of freelance workers, including performers, who make up 70% of the sector’s workforce. Many of them have been unable to access current income support schemes. Further, when will funds start being distributed, and when will there be a plan with dates and sufficient notice to allow theatres and other indoor spaces to reopen in an economically viable way? At this perilous time, speed really is of the essence.

[Baroness Barran]

I acknowledge that the Covid-19 crisis has presented a particular challenge for freelancers. The package will support cultural institutions, which means the physical and the human fabric of those institutions. The department is working with our arm’s-length bodies to get the funds out as quickly as possible, and the noble Baroness will be aware that stage 3 of the road map has now been reached, meaning that outdoor socially distanced live performances are now possible.

[Lord Caine (Con) [V]]

My Lords, having raised the plight of small music venues previously, I warmly commend the Government for the unprecedented package of support announced last week, which for many will be the difference between closure and survival. With venue owners now looking forward to planning schedules and reopening, particularly in time for the all-important Christmas period, I follow the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Hudnall, in urging the Minister to do everything possible to ensure that the application process for funds can be expedited as quickly as possible so that support reaches those most in need.

[Baroness Barran]

My noble friend is right to highlight the importance of bringing back our live music venues as quickly as is safe to do so. We hope that the application process for funding will be open by the end of the month and that funds will start to flow from the autumn, but there is a small amount set aside for those in short-term distress, and obviously, a number of arm’s-length bodies have already been actively distributing funds over the last few months.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I declare my interests as listed in the register. Of course, the great flagships of our cultural fleet must be protected, but surrounding the main flotilla are many small craft employing freelancers, who, as we have heard, are currently in a perilous financial situation. These smaller vessels address many of the Government’s aspirations in terms of geographic reach, diversity, education and innovation, not least in their instigating vital new work from our composers and writers. Will the Minister push for these criteria to be at the forefront of DCMS and Arts Council deliberations?

[Baroness Barran]

The department has been very clear about where our priorities lie, in protecting both nationally and internationally recognised institutions and the role of local institutions, particularly in levelling up and economic growth. Hard choices will have to be made, but both those elements are seen as vital within this package.

[Baroness Bakewell (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, mention has already been made of the national institutions and their international reputations, as well as the spread of small-scale institutions and enterprises around the country and the importance of freelancers in that respect. Going forward, numerous small enterprises are still at risk, so may I suggest that the Government consider underwriting insurance for theatre productions in case they are forced to pause or close?

[Baroness Barran]

I am happy to take the noble Baroness’s suggestion back to the department.

[Baroness Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I declare my interests as laid out in the register. Does the Minister accept that, despite the generous and much-appreciated cash injection for the sector announced last week, unless we get the EU-UK deal right post Brexit—and now, post the possibility of an extension—and in particular the right deal on movement of talent and skills, the creative industry faces another crisis and imminently? Are the Government working on a creative freelance visa to maintain access to EU talent and reduce red tape and costs for performers and creatives?

[Baroness Barran]

The noble Baroness is right that travel and working within the EU have been important for freelancers in many artistic disciplines. I remind her that we have been clear that we are not asking for anything special in relation to freelancers, but to replicate some of the deals that have been struck with other countries.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, following the Question asked by my noble friend Lady McIntosh, the Minister implied that the funding package recently announced included funding for freelancers but how that is to be done is opaque. Will the Minister write to me setting out precisely the quantum of financial support expected to be available to freelancers in the creative industries and what the take-up has been to date? Will she also set out fully the plan for how freelancers will survive until the full opening of the sector?

[Baroness Barran]

I am always delighted to write to the noble Lord—I feel that I do so at regular intervals, which is entirely appropriate. It is hard to be precise about the specifics of take-up to date on a sector-by-sector basis to see exactly where particularly the self-employed income support scheme has been used, but I can give the noble Lord the data that we have. How it will work will be up to individual institutions to judge in their applications for funding.

[Baroness Hooper (Con) [V]]

My Lords, as co-chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Dance Group, I am particularly interested in that sector of the performing arts. However, there has been a lack of clarity about how the welcome government package announced on 5 July applies to the world of dance. It has been suggested, for example, that only professional dancers and choreographers will be allowed to use dance studios. But according to the Prime Minister’s earlier statement on 23 June, they must remain closed. Will my noble friend clarify the extent to which the general rules apply to dance and whether any further guidance is due?

[Baroness Barran]

My understanding is that the package does include dance companies in particular and touring companies. My noble friend refers to training that I understand is in line with other elite sports, but I am happy to write her to confirm that.

[The Earl of Clancarty (CB) [V]]

My Lords, even with the funding, this could yet be a disaster for the music sector where 90% of the workforce is self-employed. Will the Government extend the self-employed scheme at least until the end of the year? Otherwise, there is the danger that many talented musicians will leave the industry or go abroad.

[Baroness Barran]

I beg to differ with the noble Earl that the scheme is a disaster. It has been welcomed widely by the sector and is recognised as the most generous scheme of its type in Europe. I am not aware of any plans to extend the self-employed scheme.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed. We move to the second Oral Question from the noble Lord, Lord Howell of Guildford.

Arts, Culture and Heritage: Support Package

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Wednesday 8th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, we welcome this much-needed, albeit long-awaited, injection of cash for the arts and cultural sectors. The announcement has been well received, although some concerns have been expressed. I hope the noble Baroness will agree that it is vital that this money does not go just to the biggest venues or to those with the loudest voices. The creative sector’s crown jewels are very well distributed throughout the country, and all parts, including in the devolved Administrations, need to be nourished.

Can the noble Baroness explain why, according to the department’s own briefing, funds will not actually arrive until the autumn? The arts bodies we are in touch with are already in substantial need, and further delay may push several into bankruptcy, which would be a tragedy. As she knows, the creative industries rely on freelancers, many of whom have been excluded from the Treasury’s Covid-19 schemes. What steps will the Government take to make sure not only that arts and cultural sector buildings are saved, but that they will have creators, actors and performers delivering live performances too?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for welcoming the package of £1.57 billion of new money for the arts and culture that has been announced. I can reassure him that the plan for the package is not just to prioritise the largest institutions, although they are very important and £100 million is set aside for them, but to nurture the ecosystem of arts and culture organisations, which will also have important implications for freelancers in the sector and for the whole supply chain. As regards getting the funds out quickly, I can reassure the noble Lord that colleagues are working tirelessly to do that as fast as possible.

[Baroness Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury (LD) [V]]

I welcome this excellent news and thank the Secretary of State and his team, including the noble Baroness, at the DCMS. It is a generous package, and it shows a listening department. Can the Minister confirm that funding decisions will reflect existing priorities within the arts—she just mentioned in her Answer that it was understood that funding for creatives in the regions was important—but also the encouragement of inclusivity and diversity in both the workforce and audiences?

[Baroness Barran]

To clarify in response to the noble Baroness’s question on priorities, there are three priorities that we need to balance in deciding where this funding goes. We want to protect our nationally and internationally significant institutions but we also know that there are important institutions which are critical for our levelling- up agenda in places and communities all round the country, and we also want to prioritise those that are key drivers of economic growth. Therefore, there will be some balancing and some choices to make. On inclusivity, the noble Baroness is right that we will aim to support a diverse range of organisations; funding decisions will look at organisations’ track record of inclusivity as regards audiences and those delivering the arts.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB) [V]]

My Lords, well done to the DCMS for getting the ball rolling. However, the sooner we can get organisations open, the sooner freelancers will be back in work. It makes no sense that you can sit in a plane but not in a hall, especially when there are many venues with open spaces and movable walls, such as Garsington, that we should be using. Finally, would the Minister look at the Music Publishers Association’s plan, in which money set aside by the Government might be used to buy those tickets that they are no longer allowed to sell, thus benefiting the venues, composers and publishers?

[Baroness Barran]

The noble Lord raises the important issue of freelancers. On the plane issue, there is a great deal of difference and a great deal more complexity in reopening a theatre, for example, than having passengers on a plane. However, we are working to try to address these issues and we are hopeful that we can move to stage 3 of our plan—namely, outdoor live performances—within a few days. We have also done a great deal already for freelancers but we believe that by having a mix of funding between bricks and mortar as well as touring companies and other elements of performance, we will reinvigorate the supply chain and allow freelancers back to work. I will take the noble Lord’s suggestion regarding the Music Publishers Association back to the department.

[Lord Dobbs (Con) [V]]

I wholeheartedly welcome this extraordinary package, which I understand is the biggest package of support and investment for arts and culture anywhere in the world. Does my noble friend agree that it is the wonderful cultural life that we enjoy that attracts so many talented and ambitious men and women to this country, not just because they want to work here but because they want to live here? That is one of the reasons why Britain is such a global leading financial centre.

May I press my noble friend a little further on what she has just said about theatres? What progress is being made on the reopening of theatres, and can I press her particularly on the matter of open-air theatres, which really need to be back in operation right now, while the weather is improving? If pubs can open and air passengers can fly, why not let us enjoy our great culture out in the open?

[Baroness Barran]

My noble friend is right that our cultural sector and the extraordinarily talented people who work within it have been a great driver both in terms of quality of life but also economic growth in this country. As regards open-air performances, as I said, we are optimistic that we will be able to move to stage 3 of our road map very shortly and to stage 4 later this summer.

[Baroness Bull (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I too welcome this support and thank all those in government and the cultural sector who have worked so hard to deliver it. Can the Minister press two key points with colleagues in DCMS and the Treasury? First, there is the importance of balancing ambitions to safeguard the sector—I quote both the Prime Minister and the Chancellor—with recognition of the need to address existing imbalances and inequalities through investment in people, places and ideas, particularly creative freelancers and those parts of the country too often overlooked. Secondly, there is the urgent need to agree not-before dates so the sector can plan the journey to reopening, as set out in stage 5 of the plan.

[Baroness Barran]

To be clear on the criteria for where funding is going, grant and loan recipients will need to show that, first, they are viable, secondly, they are at risk, and thirdly, they have exhausted all existing avenues of funding. As regards diversity, I touched on number of those points in my response to the noble Baroness, Lady Bonham-Carter. That will be a clear priority. On the date for reopening, I am afraid that I can say no more than that our priority remains safety, but as soon as we can give a date, we will.

[Baroness Rawlings (Con) [V]]

My Lords, HMG got it right: support for the arts is vital. Does the Minister agree that without pantomime, we will lose all our regular theatres permanently beyond anything a grant can achieve? Pantomime gives more employment to more members of the industry than any other form of theatre. Its audience is more inclusive and diverse than in any other field of culture. It provides irreplaceable release and relief. It is as British as the fortitude with which the UK has faced this crisis. Does the Minister agree that it will heal us and bind us back together once again? Why be Ebenezer when you could be Aladdin? Pantomime is our reward. I urge the Minister: please make it possible in time for Christmas.

[Baroness Barran]

My noble friend makes a most persuasive case for the pantomime. I absolutely agree that it brings value. We will be driven by safety considerations but will move as quickly as we can within those constraints.

[Lord Aberdare (CB) [V]]

My Lords, it is good to welcome a package that actually exceeds expectations, in scale if not timing, but there is still plenty more to do. How will the package help new entrants into the profession, particularly those who have just graduated from the conservatoires and music and art schools, who may be worried about their career prospects turning to dust?

[Baroness Barran]

Not only is it good to announce a package that exceeds expectations but it is very nice to respond to one as well. The noble Lord raises a critical point as regards new entrants. Obviously, the fabric of the grants that we give out will need to reflect not only the ecosystem of our arts and heritage and culture but its future, of which new entrants are a critical part.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Garden of Frognal) (LD)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Urgent Question has now elapsed. I apologise to the three noble Lords who were not able to ask their questions.

Television Licences

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Monday 6th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to discuss with the incoming Director General of the BBC the postponement of the withdrawal of free television licences for people aged over 75.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government congratulate Tim Davie on his appointment as the new director-general of the BBC. The Secretary of State spoke to Tim Davie on his appointment and looks forward to working with him in the months and years ahead. However, I must make it clear that the BBC is responsible for the over-75s licence fee concession, not the Government. The BBC board is keeping the start date of its new policy for the over-75s under review and has said it will announce its decision on any further delay to the changes to the concession in July.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op) [V]]

My Lords, that is a totally unacceptable Answer. Surely both the BBC and the Government have accepted by postponing for two months how vital television is for old people to keep in touch with vital information from the Government, as well as entertainment and other information. Now, since older people are being asked to be in lockdown, many of them indefinitely, surely it is not too much to ask the Government and the BBC to get together now to discuss postponing this withdrawal of free TV licences, also indefinitely. Will the Minister give the assurance today that the BBC and the Government will get round the table to discuss postponing this indefinitely?

[Baroness Barran]

The Government are well aware of the sacrifice that many people, particularly elderly people, have made during the past few months. However, the responsibility is absolutely clear and was debated extensively by this House during the passing of the Digital Economy Act in 2017: the BBC is responsible for this matter.

[Baroness Bakewell (Lab) [V]]

The Covid-19 crisis has emphasised more than ever the dependence of the over-75s on their television sets, particularly those who are isolating. The arrival of a new director-general at the BBC gives an opportunity to open up again what was an extremely controversial negotiation with the Government about the licence fee. Will the Government bear in mind during these proposed negotiations that the cohort of over-75s who watch television is very varied indeed? Some of them are extremely rich and can afford it, but many of them, the most dependent, cannot afford it at all. Therefore, there is an opportunity here, given a new negotiation, to offer some scale of payment that the Government and the BBC might consider appropriate.

[Baroness Barran]

There will be a very wide range of issues, I am sure, to be discussed between my right honourable friend the Secretary of State and the new director-general of the BBC when he comes into post. The Government are clear that everyone entitled to claim pension credit should do so, and we are aware that that is not the case universally, so we are also working in particular on that.

[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP) [V]]

In light of what our elderly have already experienced with Covid-19—the isolation and loneliness they have endured—many will have serious long-term effects. Does the Minister agree that it is time for the BBC to stop the blame game and honour the clear commitment already given to the over-75s?

[Baroness Barran]

The noble Lord is right to highlight the sacrifices made by the over-75s, but we are all aware that sacrifices have been made in many age groups. It is critical that we are clear that the BBC remains operationally independent of government.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Lexden) (Con)]

Lord Caine. No? Then I call Baroness Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury.

[Baroness Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury (LD) [V]]

I am sure that the Minister agrees that the BBC has proved its gold-dust weight during this crisis of the Covid pandemic and lockdown, providing a reliable source of national and local news for all, an essential aid to those home-schooling, and solace and entertainment for the lonely and elderly. In which case, why do the Government not take back responsibility for the licence fee concession for the over-75s, introduced by a Labour Government in which the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, served, as something to be paid for by the Government, not by the licence fee payer, and which the BBC was, frankly, forced to take on? Does she not agree that not doing so means that the BBC will inevitably have to cut back on the essential services I have referred to?

[Baroness Barran]

The noble Baroness is right to say that over the past few months, the BBC has certainly provided high-quality information, education and entertainment, and has shown great agility in its response. However, I do not accept the second part of her question. The framework for negotiating the next stage in terms of the licence fee with the BBC will be settled by the end of next year, and I am sure that a number of these issues will be taken into consideration.

[Lord Naseby (Con) [V]]

Bearing in mind that pensioners have suffered more than most in the lockdown, and sadly with the extent of deaths among them from Covid-19, and that TV remains their number one contact with outside life, is it really sensible or fair that the vast majority of them are going to face an annual tax of £154.50, or £40 a quarter? Surely the BBC should find a way to pay for this long-held free TV licence. First, why not look again at the Peacock report, published in May 1986, which recommended selling off Radio 1 and Radio 2 to fund it? Secondly, if it was acceptable for the BBC World Service to take advertising, why not consider it for a part of the BBC now?

[Baroness Barran]

My noble friend raised a number of different options but, at the risk of repeating myself, we are very clear that it is the responsibility of the BBC to work out how it spends its budget. Most recently, in giving evidence recently to a Select Committee, the BBC’s director of policy was clear that everybody would be given time to transition to a new system when it is announced.

[Baroness Coussins (CB) [V]]

My Lords, will the Government undertake to discuss with the new director-general the harassment of the BBC’s Persian service? The London-based staff face criminal investigations and asset freezing by the Iranian authorities, along with death threats and online attacks that are especially targeted at female staff. What specific practical help can the Government offer to this vital part of the World Service?

[Baroness Barran]

The noble Baroness has raised an important point, which I will share with colleagues in the department.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, the BBC is not solely responsible for the cuts that it is now having to make. This was a budget cut imposed on it by the then Chancellor in a crude attempt to evade the Government’s statutory responsibility for welfare policy. One of the proposals that was rejected by the Government during the passage of what became the Digital Economy Act was for an independent assessment to be made of the BBC’s funding needs in order to deliver its charter responsibilities. Will the Government look at this fair and equitable policy during the next licence fee round?

[Baroness Barran]

The noble Lord is critical of the last settlement, but I would remind him that the BBC itself regarded it as a good deal.

[Lord McNally (LD) [V]]

My Lords, the licence fee was created by a Conservative Government to protect the BBC from intimidation and sniping by the Government of the day. Is it not time that the Government stopped using the licence fee as a bran tub to dip into for populist causes and gave the BBC the protection from political interference that it deserves?

[Baroness Barran]

I am slightly perplexed by the noble Lord’s question, because I do not think that the Government see the licence fee as a bran tub at all. As I have said in answer to almost every question today, the Government absolutely respect the editorial and operational independence of the BBC.

[The Deputy Speaker]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has now elapsed.

Covid-19: Orchestras and Cultural Venues

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Wednesday 1st July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. In doing so, I draw attention to my interests in the register.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, we recognise how severely the cultural sector has been hit by Covid-19. That is why we are providing unprecedented assistance, including government loans and the job retention scheme, from which hundreds of organisations have received support, including, importantly, orchestras and cultural venues. DCMS arm’s-length bodies have also provided tailored support. The Arts Council, the National Lottery Heritage Fund and Historic England have together provided £250 million in emergency funding. We continue to engage with the sector and we are working with Arts Council England to ensure that we fully understand the impacts of Covid-19 and to consider the additional measures that are needed to ensure the long-term recovery and growth of the cultural sector, including orchestras and cultural venues.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton [V]]

I thank the Minister for that response. Has the Secretary of State’s promise of further funding been sat on from above? Musicians, actors and artists, as well as orchestras and venues, have either fallen between furlough and emergency funding, which is indeed welcome, or are coming to the end of that assistance. We have already lost one theatre and, for example, the Lighthouse in Poole and the Manchester Camerata have only weeks of funds left. What these and the larger organisations need now is a definite date and figures so that they can plan ahead as businesses and replenish both our cultural heritage and, indeed, the coffers of the Treasury.

[Baroness Barran]

The noble Lord is absolutely right to highlight the importance and variety of our cultural heritage. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State has been absolutely clear that the Government will continue to take action that is commensurate with the scale of the crisis at the time that action is needed.

[Lord Mandelson (Lab) [V]]

I declare my interest as chair of the Design Museum in its new premises in the former Commonwealth Institute building in Kensington. Perhaps I may acknowledge the emergency short-term help that has been offered by the Government to national portfolio organisations, but this amounts to £90 million spread over 800 cultural organisations, and therefore inevitably it is being spread very thinly. I would remind the Minister that, extraordinarily, after the Second World War, at a time of huge deprivation and austerity, the Arts Council was created with cross-party backing under the leadership of Maynard Keynes to deliver major co-ordinated support for the performing arts, museums and other cultural venues. Now that these entities are once again facing the extreme financial consequences of forced closure and further restrictions as a result of Covid-19, will the Government mount a similarly extraordinary and co-ordinated long-term response to sustain their existence?

[Baroness Barran]

The Government understand the hybrid nature of the way the arts sector is funded in this country and are keen to encourage funding from many different directions. The noble Lord asked about the scale of ambition. He will be aware that the Secretary of State has set up the Cultural Renewal Taskforce, which includes a range of leading thinkers and experts in this field. Its report will be very important to influencing the scale of our ambition.

[Baroness Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury (LD) [V]]

I declare my interests as a trustee of The Lowry and One Dance UK. The situation in which cultural venues find themselves is dire, especially without specific dates in the recovery plan. However, does the Minister accept that this goes further? Many organisations do not have a permanent home and rely on touring, such as dance troupes, theatre companies, festivals and so on. They should not be overlooked and need to be supported as well. Will the Minister commit to ensuring that the Government do not conflate the two? Also, if we do not get the EU-UK deal right, does she not accept that these organisations will face another catastrophe in a few months’ time?

[Baroness Barran]

The noble Baroness has raised an important point about clarity of timing. The Secretary of State recently revealed a five-stage road map that will allow the performing arts sector to get back up and running, and more detailed guidance will be published shortly. She has also raised a question about organisations that do not have a permanent home and are touring. First, we will obviously endeavour to ensure that they do not, in her words, fall through the cracks. We are also working with organisations to be innovative, including being able to perform out of doors.

[Baroness Bull (CB)]

My Lords, on 8 June the Secretary of State said that he will not stand by and see our world-leading arts and cultural sector destroyed—but it seems to many of us that that is exactly what is happening. The Government’s road map sets out five steps to reopening but fails to recognise the cultural ecosystem, of which live performance is just one part. It has no financial support and, crucially, no timetable. Does the Minister agree that, while definitive opening dates clearly cannot be given, a not-before timetable, just like hospitality and hairdressing were given, would at least enable the sector to plan properly and avoid as far as possible job losses and further closures?

[Baroness Barran]

The noble Baroness is absolutely right about the ecosystem. The department has heard that loud and clear and understands it well. On detailed guidance as regards timings, I can only say that it is being worked on and will be published soon.

[Lord Grade of Yarmouth (Con) [V]]

I declare my interest as a theatre producer and a member of the DCMS task force looking at reopening the different constituent sectors under the DCMS. In that regard, I take this opportunity to place on record how extraordinarily impressed I have been by the effective work of the Secretary of State and his team, who are working day and night to try to get all the different sectors open as fast as possible; it is an extraordinary amount of work. We all know that there is a mile-long queue at the Treasury for help through this dreadful time, but the creative industries and arts sector will lose for ever a large swathe of our regional venues throughout the UK, particularly outside London. Can my noble friend the Minister give us any indication of how well the conversations with the Treasury are going, given the queue that exists?

[Baroness Barran]

I thank my noble friend for his contribution as part of the task force. We are acutely aware that, as government support unwinds, the situation becomes much more difficult for both regional and other theatres and venues. As the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, mentioned, we have seen some closures already. The Government will not be in a position to save every venue, but we are regularly listening to the sector, actively talking to the Treasury and considering how best we can respond to the long-term challenges that the sector faces.

[The Lord Bishop of St Albans [V]]

My Lords, it is not just the performance venues that are suffering but many churches and halls rented out for rehearsal space. Will the Minister update the House on the progress of research undertaken into singing and playing woodwind and brass instruments, to see how these activities might be safely undertaken while minimising the risk of spreading Covid-19?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Barran]

Our understanding is that, as I am sure the right reverend Prelate is aware, there is a risk of increased transmission involved in singing and the use of wind instruments. That is why non-professional choirs and orchestras will not resume for the time being, although professional orchestras can start rehearsing from 4 July on a socially distanced basis. As the right reverend Prelate mentioned, we have commissioned scientific studies, which are being carried out by SAGE, to try to build a really robust evidence base. That advice will be used to inform future policy and guidelines.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, do the Government accept that, as the creative industries are distinctive in that they are mainly freelance and self-employed, they may need special continuing support as the recovery gathers pace? Can she explain why the practical guidelines for live music-making have been delayed? Without them, organisations cannot plan and audiences are deprived of the benefits of live performance.

[Baroness Barran]

We absolutely recognise the nature and important role of freelancers in these sectors. They are in the region of 72% of the workforce, compared with 16% across the rest of the economy, so the noble Lord raises an important point. Colleagues are working night and day to get the guidelines out.

[Lord McNally (LD) [V]]

My Lords, my own town Blackpool has a “Know Before You Go” campaign that sets out for visitors what is open, what they should not do and how they should go into some venues. But a whole part of this sector—including the most iconic visitor attractions—still has no timeline, road map or long-term financial assistance, as said by the noble Baroness, Lady Bull. This is crippling to the industry and putting it in grave danger. There is a question there.

[Baroness Barran]

The “Know Before You Go” scheme that the noble Lord mentioned sounds very sensible. I can only repeat what I already said: active work is going on with all the key sector stakeholders to understand how we can build back better for our cultural sector.

[Lord Randall of Uxbridge (Con) [V]]

There will be a large number of performing arts students graduating from universities and drama schools whose short and maybe mid-term job prospects will be looking pretty bleak. I ask my noble friend not to forget the plight of these young people, many of whom would have been joining touring companies, as was mentioned earlier.

[Baroness Barran]

My noble friend is absolutely right: those young graduates should not be forgotten. I think I am right in saying that in the Prime Minister’s speech yesterday there was a particular focus on the importance of opportunity for our young people.

[Lord Stirrup (CB) [V]]

My Lords, the Minister may be aware of the excellent initiative by Wigmore Hall, which in conjunction with Radio 3 streamed and broadcast live concerts throughout June, providing work for artists and bringing pleasure to many. But it has proved much more difficult for it to continue its crucial outreach work with disadvantaged and diverse communities of many ethnicities and backgrounds, with all the social benefits this brings. In looking at the way ahead for the sector over the coming months, will the Government pay particular attention to this important dimension of our cultural landscape?

[Baroness Barran]

The noble and gallant Lord raises a really important point. We know that the evidence in relation to social mobility and the arts is very strong. In the new Arts Council England five-year strategy, which is shortly to be published, we expect to see more evidence of focus in exactly the areas the noble and gallant Lord refers to.

[Lord Lipsey (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, the whole House will welcome the positive things said by the Minister about her department’s work, but if she puts herself in the shoes of working musicians—not working at the moment—or administrators, does she realise what a contrast they will see between the extreme urgency with which the Prime Minister launched with a fanfare yesterday all sorts of infrastructure spending for the future and the reality in this sector that iconic venues and great orchestras absolutely do not know where their future is going?

[Baroness Barran]

Sadly, I do not have the talents to put myself in the shoes of musicians, but I understand the point the noble Lord is making. I can stress only that, from my perspective, in the department this is taken extremely seriously as a matter of great urgency.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Alderdice) (LD)]

The time allowed for this Question has now elapsed.

Covid-19: Women’s Sport

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Tuesday 30th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Randall of Uxbridge]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to support women’s sport after the COVID-19 pandemic.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, it is vital that we continue to strive for greater equality and opportunity in sport. I am keen that we maintain the focus on women’s sport and build on the fantastic progress of the last few years. That is why on 29 May we wrote to the Football Association, the Rugby Football Union, the Rugby Football League, the Lawn Tennis Association and the England and Wales Cricket Board to ask about their plans to promote sport at the elite level and to grow women and girls’ wider participation, and how we can support them to do that.

[Lord Randall of Uxbridge (Con) [V]]

I thank my noble friend for her Answer. I declare an interest as a trustee of the Saracens Sport Foundation. We know that many girls drop out of sport and physical activity by the age of 14. What does my noble friend think can be done to improve the situation?

[Baroness Barran]

My noble friend is right that more needs to be done to tackle the decline of physical activity through secondary school. One way we are approaching that is through Sport England, which is providing free training for two teachers in every secondary school in England to help foster positive attitudes towards physical education and sport. We recently announced a £17 million investment so that that additional support can go to primary schools as well across the country.

[Lord Clark of Windermere (Lab)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as a director of Carlisle United. Recent years have been very exciting for women’s sport, including football. As the Minister knows, many of the lower Football League clubs have given great encouragement to women’s football locally. Now of course they find themselves in great financial difficulty themselves. Will the Minister do her best to ensure that none of this valuable contribution and co-operation is lost?

[Baroness Barran]

The noble Lord is absolutely right. As I have declared previously in this House, I am a shareholder in Bath City Football Club—so we are as one on the importance of grass-roots sport and football, and the Government are clear and committed that that part of the fabric of our community should be maintained.

[Baroness Wheatcroft (Non-Afl) [V]]

My Lords, community sports centres have proved to be key in getting women involved in sport and keeping them there. What will the Government do to encourage them to open up as quickly as possible?

[Baroness Barran]

The Government have been working very closely through the recreation and leisure task force, as the noble Baroness may be aware, to plan for the reopening of community sports centres. They play a crucial role in keeping everyone active, including younger and older women. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State indicated that our aspiration is to open those centres in mid-July, if it is safe to do so.

[Lord Hayward (Con) [V]]

My Lords, is it not the case that one of the best ways of improving the opportunities for women and generally diverse communities is by changing the structure of the governing bodies of so many sports? Could my noble friend consider recommending to governing bodies that they adopt something similar to the Rooney Rule to enhance their diversity?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Barran]

My noble friend is absolutely right. Women now make up an average of 40% of board members across bodies funded by Sport England and UK Sport. Three-quarters of these sports have already achieved the gender benchmark of 30%, as set out in the Code for Sports Governance. My noble friend may have seen that on 11 June the Sports Minister announced his intention to review the code more broadly, with a view to introducing a target for more black, Asian and minority-ethnic representation on the boards of sports governing bodies.

[Lord Addington (LD) [V]]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that one of the biggest steps forward has been that it is normal to see elite-level female competitors taking part on our TV screens? Will the Government look at why, in great football matches of the past, the women’s competitions that were shown were not given more prominence?

[Baroness Barran]

This is a highly relevant topic. The noble Lord is right about the opportunity to broadcast some of the inspiring women’s games that have taken place. Obviously, the editorial independence of broadcasters is key, but we are also clear that the visibility of women’s sport is critical.

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as president of Northamptonshire County Cricket Club. Will the Minister recognise the enormous progress that has been made in cricket, particularly women’s and girls’ cricket, in recent years? Will she also listen sympathetically to any proposals that come from the ECB, in light of the financial constraints this summer, and look urgently at getting club cricket, in particular for girls and boys, on the pitches, because at the moment they cannot even start to play the game?

[Baroness Barran]

I am sure that my noble friend also was pleased to see the appointment of Clare Connor as the first female president of the MCC. There is a great commitment to getting cricket started again. The county cricket season starts at the beginning of August; the ECB is committed to staging women’s cricket during 2020. Thanks to Sky’s coverage of the women’s game, we will see free-to-air coverage of women’s cricket return on the BBC later this season.

[Baroness Bull (CB)]

My Lords, women’s sport depends on getting girls and young women active, but they frequently have a negative association with sport, especially as they go through the changes of adolescence, because the physical exposure too often leads to body shaming. Does the Minister agree that the pressure on female athletes, laid bare by Mary Cain’s brave testimony, is the tip of the iceberg in a culture in which body shaming is all too prevalent? What are the Government doing to educate sports coaches about the negative impact of body shaming and to drive this harmful practice out of the sports arena?

[Baroness Barran]

The noble Baroness raises an important issue. I point to the campaign This Girl Can, of which I am sure she is well aware. It has highlighted and celebrated how normal girls and women look and has inspired 3.9 million women and girls to get active since it started in 2015. That has been an important part of this, but the body shaming issues she raises are real, and I think are even more so for women of colour, who can feel pressure to whiten their bodies as well as reshape them.

[Baroness Massey of Darwen (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, as a Lady Taverner, I too welcome the appointment of the former captain of the England women’s cricket team as the first woman president of the MCC. Does the Minister think that one way forward in women’s sport is to appoint more women to high-level posts and to increase funding to the level of men’s games?

[Baroness Barran]

I think the noble Baroness knows the answer to her question. Of course senior role models are absolutely critical, and we are fortunate to have several in this House, including the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, and the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, with her leadership role in women’s football at the FA. However, we need role models at every level in sport, not just the most elite, and that is part of what we are working on with all the different bodies involved.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD) [V]]

The Minister has acknowledged that young sportswomen need opportunities. What financial support are this Government willing to provide to improve these opportunities?

[Baroness Barran]

Particularly in relation to Covid, we have made a generous funding package available. More broadly, we are working with the governing bodies of all sports to make sure that resources are committed to the women’s game and that the positive momentum we have seen in recent years is continued.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Lexden) (Con)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has now elapsed.

Telecommunications Infrastructure (Leasehold Property) Bill

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Report stage & Report stage (Hansard) & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 29th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Livermore (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Clement-Jones and Lord Fox, for tabling Amendment 1, which would have a very similar practical effect to Labour’s Amendment 2. My noble friend Lord Stevenson and I also tabled Amendment 3, which would enable operators themselves to initiate their Part 4A process. While we feel very strongly about this, it is one of the many issues that could be addressed as part of the review envisaged by Amendment 7, so I will not detain the House by repeating past arguments.

Returning to Amendments 1 and 2, this is an area that has been probed extensively during the Bill’s Commons stages and in Committee here, and where fundamental differences remain. Despite what I feel are very clear arguments in favour of amendments giving certainty to those who rent, the Government have resisted changing the Bill at all stages. When responding to a similar group of amendments in Committee, the Minister said:

“Our concern is that the amendments as tabled would have a significant effect on the Bill. They would significantly expand the scope of who is able to make a service request”.—[Official Report, 19/5/20; col. 1031.]


That is, after all, what we are trying to achieve, and I therefore find it puzzling that we find ourselves in this position.

The Minister went on to suggest that broadening the Bill’s scope could, for example, enable a tenant renting from an individual who is illegally subletting a property to request a broadband connection. While we do not condone such practices, there are, in my view, several issues with this argument. First, I do not believe that the number of such cases would be particularly high, whereas the number of renters who would benefit from the right to request a service is likely to be significant. The risk is very definitely outweighed by the reward. Secondly, the existence of such issues should not preclude people who are renting a property in good faith from being able to access quality telecommunications services. If there are issues with particular landlords, that is for local authorities to resolve. If the problem is bigger than that, Whitehall has responsibilities too. Thirdly, if the department felt that there were legitimate deficiencies in the drafting of earlier amendments, it would have been possible for the Government to table their own text for consideration today. No amendment was offered because renters do not seem to figure in the department’s so-called balanced and proportionate approach.

I do not think any of those arguments from the Government are particularly convincing, and the strength of the Government’s opposition to straightforward, well-intentioned amendments casts doubt on Ministers’ insistence that they will take any and all available opportunities to widen access to high-quality broadband and mobile connections. I hope the Minister feels able to accept either Amendment 1 or 2 today. She could do so and, if necessary, table tidying-up amendments at Third Reading. If that is not the case, I urge your Lordships to back the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, should he choose to test the opinion of the House.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, I shall speak first to Amendments 1 and 2. I thank noble Lords for again bringing forward these amendments, one of which is identical to an amendment tabled in Committee. I note that amendments to this effect were also tabled in Committee and on Report in the other place. At the fourth go around, I will do my best to clarify our arguments more effectively.

As I said earlier, I believe that the intention in tabling this amendment is to ensure that this Bill benefits those who rent their homes. The noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, quoted from my letter on this, and I agree entirely. However, as I stated in Committee and then in the correspondence with which I followed up, the Bill already has within its scope many of those who rent by virtue of the term “lessee in occupation”. The Bill makes it clear, in paragraph 27B(1)(a) of the code it inserts, that

“premises within the scope of this Part are occupied under a lease”.

A tenancy agreement, which also provides for exclusive possession, is a form of lease. Any tenant with exclusive possession is therefore in scope of this Bill, and no further provision needs to be made in this Bill for such a person.

The noble Lord, Lord Livermore, and my noble friend Lord Naseby both questioned the Government’s commitment to expanding access to broadband, and my noble friend Lord Naseby and the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, quoted multiple examples of complexities in tenancies, but this Bill is about simplicity. There is one principle on which the ability to use a Part 4A order stands or falls: exclusive possession.

Conversely, a tenant who holds a licence—a lodger, for example—is not within the scope of the Bill, because a licence does not give exclusive possession. To be clear: that does not preclude them from contacting their licensor to request a service. I do not think it is possible to be much clearer than this. I realise that the noble Lords may be seeking to ensure that there is no ambiguity and that the legislation provides judges with all the information they might need to enable a swift and easy decision; I understand that motivation. However, I believe we need to trust the specialist judges in the First-tier Tribunal in England and Wales and those sitting in equivalent courts elsewhere in Scotland and Northern Ireland, who deal regularly with such matters.

To be as clear as possible, I will cover some of the points that I alluded to in my letter and that the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, raised. For the avoidance of doubt, not all tenancies need to be in writing or formed by deed, and the case law is relatively settled in relation to this. As the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, mentioned, the Appellate Committee of the House of Lords, in its judgment in Street v Mountford in 1985, found that an agreement is a lease if it provides for the following four things: first, exclusive possession; secondly, of a defined premises; thirdly, for a fixed or periodic term; and fourthly, at a rent. This is a matter of substance rather than form; it does not become a lease simply if the parties describe it as a lease. In a later case, the Court of Appeal held in Ashburn Anstalt v Walter John Arnold and WJ Arnold & Company Limited in 1989 that there is no requirement that a lease reserve a rent. As I said earlier, the distinguishing feature of a lease is that the tenant has exclusive possession of a property.

Pegging the Bill to the concept of a lessee in occupation therefore ensures that the Bill includes tenants who rent under assured shorthold tenancy or assured tenancy agreements—which, as many noble Lords will be aware, are the most common forms of tenancy agreements. It also includes tenants at will and renewable tenancies, in so far as the tenancies that are renewable had provided for exclusive possession in the first place.

To be clear: we believe Amendment 2 would expand the scope—that is clearly its intention. It would be extended to include those who occupy a property without exclusive possession and therefore under a licence, which would include lodgers, people staying in holiday cottages and those staying in hostels. That is to say, the amendment would provide someone who may be a temporary guest in someone else’s home with powers over that property. I am sure your Lordships would agree that this is neither fair nor appropriate. The “lessee in occupation” allows this Bill to fit within the Electronic Communications Code while also describing that limited but nevertheless still important role for the person living in the property.

Amendment 2 would considerably increase the ambit of the Bill and make it very different from the model consulted on. This is something one should be mindful of when dealing with matters that consider property rights. It should also be noted that, for the reasons I have previously set out, Amendment 1 is not necessary because if the target premises are already “occupied under a lease”, it follows that the person so occupying will have exclusive possession. That is because the existence of exclusive possession is one of the key elements of a tenancy agreement constituting a lease rather than a licence. In a letter dated 9 June 2020, we sought to explain this to all noble Lords who had expressed an interest in this Bill in Committee. To be clear once again: the Government’s intention in bringing forward this legislation is that those who occupy a flat or apartment under a tenancy agreement are in scope of this policy.

The noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, asked about the criteria for including things such as business parks. I think I said at an earlier stage of our debates that we would wait for evidence that there is a genuine demand and need to do that. The spirit of this Bill remains: we want to expand access to broadband while maintaining the balance in the relationship between landowner, operator and tenant.

My noble friend Lady McIntosh asked whether this would create further delay from the landlord. The whole point of this Bill is to try to make sure that people living in blocks of flats can access broadband in the timeliest way possible. I hope noble Lords are now assured by the fact that the Bill as drafted already works in respect of tenants and understand the reason behind “lessee in occupation” and why it may be a mistake to seek to extend the scope in the manner proposed.

I now move on to Amendment 3, which would allow telecommunications operators to apply to the courts for a Part 4A order without requiring a lessee in occupation in the property to request the provision of a service from an operator. It would therefore allow the operators themselves to determine whether the connection of the property to their network is in the public interest, in order to commence the Part 4A process. I note again that this amendment is identical to one tabled in Committee and similar in concept to others tabled throughout this Bill’s passage in both this House and another place.

I appreciate the intention behind the amendment, which is to remove what noble Lords see as an unnecessary step in the process, and I am well aware that this is a point on which telecoms operators have been particularly active. However, I cannot support the amendment.

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[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay]

My Lords, I am conscious that we have had nearly an hour’s debate already on this and have a large number of noble Lords who wish to speak to this amendment. I appreciate that one of the difficulties of our current arrangements is that noble Lords might feel they have to make speeches of considerable length to pre-empt what my noble friend the Minister might say. The Companion allows a Minister to speak early if it might assist the House so, with the leave of the House, I suggest that she makes her speech at this point, to cover points that noble Lords might be anticipating.

[Baroness Barran]

My Lords, I thank the House for the opportunity to respond to this important debate at this stage, and the noble Lord, Lord Alton, for his very generous words. I found the meetings with him and the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner, really important and valuable. Again, I reiterate my respect for everything that he and his co-sponsors are doing to raise awareness of human rights abuses all around the world, even though many of the examples that we have listened to this afternoon are hard to hear.

In responding to the contributions from your Lordships, I will first address the invitation from the noble Lord, Lord Alton, and his co-sponsors to bring this issue back to the House on Third Reading—in his words, “at this late hour”. Then I will turn to the implications that this amendment would have on the operability of the Bill. This Government take human rights immensely seriously, and that is why I entirely support all noble Lords in bringing these issues to the fore, and I understand why they are bringing forward this amendment so that this important discussion can take place.

From the outset, I say that I have definitely felt the strength of feeling conveyed by your Lordships, whether virtually or physically, in the debate today. I very much welcome the invitation from the noble Lord, Lord Alton, to meet to work on this issue ahead of Third Reading, and to discuss it with him and his co-sponsors in greater detail, with the aim of addressing it in a manner acceptable to the House. I hope that clears up that point at this stage.

I return to the amendment. It is difficult when all my arguments have already been put so eloquently by your Lordships, but I will try and explain, genuinely, that we face twin difficulties in accepting the amendment as it stands. The first, importantly, is that we do not believe that it will achieve the aims of the noble Lords who support it. Secondly—and I absolutely understand that this is not your Lordships’ intent—it will wreck the purpose of the Bill, which is to facilitate the provision of fibre broadband to leasehold properties, starting with blocks of flats.

Perhaps I should repeat at this point that the Bill is about broadband, not about 5G. A number of noble Lords referred to 5G in their speeches and, to be clear, the Bill does not cover 5G.

Regarding the impact of the amendment in practice on human rights abuses, I urge your Lordships to note that the Bill is not about awarding contracts to particular vendors of equipment; as we have discussed, it is about making it easier for telecoms operators—the companies that, as my noble friend Lady Morgan said, are working so hard to keep this country connected during a public health emergency—to apply property rights to install a connection when a landlord is repeatedly failing to engage with them.

The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, mentioned the importance of finding alternative providers of equipment and, as my noble friend Lady Morgan pointed out, we are actively working on that. We have plans in process to promote it, but this is not a quick or instant win. Rather—I think the noble Lord, Lord Alton, referred to this—the amendment will impact companies such as Openreach and Virgin Media, which I think account for about 96% of the infrastructure in this country. It will not bite directly on the companies about which noble Lords have expressed their concern today.

My noble friend Lord Forsyth suggested that companies such as Huawei and, I assume he implied, other high-risk vendors could grow in the network. My noble friend will remember that in January the National Cyber Security Centre put a limit of 35% in our networks for high-risk vendors and is banning those vendors from the core of the network.

I will come back in more detail to the upcoming telecoms security Bill, which a number of your Lordships mentioned, but it is fair to say that it will give more clarity and certainty to operators about the use of high-risk vendors. Therefore, until that legislation has been passed, it is unlikely that operators would make firm commitments with regard to the future procurement of equipment, so the trend is down rather than up.

I hope this helps to clarify why the amendment will not address the truly awful practices raised by the noble Lord, Lord Alton, and others and will not affect the equipment manufacturers that may be complicit in human rights violations. This leads me to my second point, which is the inadvertent outcome of the amendment. That will be to take away the safety net we seek to provide to those living in blocks of flats who, due to an unresponsive landlord, are being left behind in our national upgrade to gigabit-capable broadband. Our concern is simply that operators will not use Part 4A orders and will continue their activity of seeking to expand their networks across the country. That will almost certainly leave behind the 14% of the population who live in blocks of flats, because there is an undoubted chilling effect that the uncertainty in the law created by the amendment will have.

Noble Lords will be aware that the Internet Service Providers’ Association, which represents the operators in the field, has expressed its concern that,

“in its current wording, amendment 5 would introduce legal uncertainties and as drafted could open network operators to unforeseeable legal challenges. As a result, we believe it would be less likely that operators would seek to make use of the powers in the Bill. This would reduce the effectiveness of the Bill and obstruct the delivery of gigabit connectivity across the UK”.

Our understanding is that these challenges would relate to potential breaches of different human rights from those debated today. Due to the ambiguity of the amendment’s drafting, the disputes over its wording could generate legal wrangling over whether the amendment relates to domestic human rights such as the right to “peaceful enjoyment of property”. I am happy to give your Lordships examples of this, but the key point is the uncertainty that would be created. That uncertainty is mirrored in the fact that there is currently no agreed definition of telecoms infrastructure, so the operators would be concerned, given the inter- operability of different parts of the network. The noble Lord, Lord Alton, gave an example of exactly that—there are parts of the network over which they have no control. I stress that we do not believe that this is what the noble Lords who tabled the amendment intended but it is the consequence that we see in practice. We believe that, to define telecoms infrastructure, litigation would need to be relied upon to provide that clarity, which could take a long time. In the meantime, many families would miss out on access to broadband. So, our concern is that the Bill would not be used, which means that the amendment would not have the intended effect.

I hear your Lordships’ claims that the issue requires urgent redress. That is why it is being been raised in this Bill. I understand and have sympathy for what they are saying in this regard; as I said at the beginning of my remarks, I would be very happy to meet to find a way to bring this issue back at Third Reading, in a manner that is acceptable to the House. However, we are saying that this amendment risks restricting broadband access for 10 million people living in blocks of flats—people who, as we have discussed several times recently in the House, are most in need of the opportunity to participate in society, particularly in these extraordinary times.

We want respect for human rights to be at the centre of all business that takes place in this country. It is not right, nor, in our opinion, good lawmaking, to have a provision in legislation focused on a very narrow and specific problem faced by residents of blocks of flats who are currently struggling to get a broadband connection. The Government absolutely share noble Lords’ concerns about human rights and modern slavery. We are fully committed to promoting respect for human rights in business and eliminating modern slavery from the global economy. Where we have concerns, we always raise them in national and international forums.

Given the provenance of some telecommunications equipment, I understand that noble Lords are particularly concerned about the situation facing the Uighur population in China. The Government have raised serious concerns about the situation in Xinjiang on numerous occasions, including with the Chinese Government directly. We have serious concerns about the human rights situation in Xinjiang, including the extra-judicial detention of over a million Uighur Muslims and other minorities in so-called political re- education camps, the systematic restrictions that we have heard described today on Uighur culture and the practice of Islam, credible reports of forced labour and extensive and invasive surveillance targeting minorities.

We have consistently demonstrated global leadership in our efforts and continue to evolve our approach. The UK was the first state to produce a national plan to respond to the UN’s guiding principles on business and human rights. The plan sets out our expectations of UK businesses’ conduct; we updated it in 2016 and continue to develop our approach, particularly concerning how we incentivise business action to prevent modern slavery in global supply chains.

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[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, this has been a very interesting debate, not least, as others have said, because of the way in which it has been structured. I do not think anybody who has seen “Hamlet” will have seen the death of Hamlet and the ensuing chaos placed right at the beginning of the play, but things seem a bit like that tonight. I jest—I should not do so because it is a very serious issue—but in some ways it was not unhelpful to have heard the Minister earlier on. She was certainly able to reassure us that it is in her mind to make an opportunity for this issue to come back at Third Reading; I hope that the Government back this when she responds.

Between now and then we may have a bit more time than we originally thought to engage with those who have spoken today, as I believe there is no date yet set for Third Reading. The noble Lord, Lord Alton, in particular made a wonderful speech and covered the ground so carefully, but others came in behind him and raised issues of substance. I hope these will be put forward in the best possible spirit as a rallying call for those who have concerns in this area to seize this opportunity, even though it is not perfect, to begin to stake out ground that should be at the heart of all our engagements with manufacturers and others concerned with the sorts of issues that have been raised today.

I ask the Minister to be as explicit as possible in her responses to a number of points. Is she content for this issue to come back to the House at Third Reading in a form that allows the noble Lord, Lord Alton, to raise the issues covered by his amendment? We do not have a date for that. Can she assure us that we will have time to meet the noble Lord, Lord Alton, and his co-sponsors, and to engage with other voices in your Lordships’ House who care about this, with the aim of finding sufficient common ground to table an amendment that will do justice to the case that has been made today? Will she confirm that her earlier statement, mid-debate, did not stifle this process? I suggest that, as a result of the amendment which we hope to get together to discuss, we start by ensuring that at least we have a process in Parliament that clearly demonstrates that Ministers take Section 54 of the Modern Slavery Act seriously, and are prepared to bring their decisions to Parliament for discussion.

[Baroness Barran]

My Lords, I start again by thanking your Lordships for giving me the opportunity to speak, rather unusually, in the middle of this very important debate. In no way was there any intention to shut down the debate. I hoped that clarifying the Government’s position would allow noble Lords to focus their remarks. I offer my thanks again for that flexibility.

I would like to address two things. First, a number of noble Lords raised the point about companies needing to do the right thing. Of course the companies that we are talking about are in compliance with the Modern Slavery Act and Section 54 but, as the noble Lord, Lord Alton, knows better than probably the rest of us put together, there are problems and issues with the teeth of Section 54; that is, in a way, at the heart of his amendment and will be at the heart of our response to the consultation later this summer. Secondly, I would like to reflect on the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, and others, so as to bring absolute clarity to my remarks.

I hope that I echo exactly the suggestions of the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, if I confirm that I am happy and content to bring this issue back at Third Reading. We will also allow time for the noble Lords, Lord Alton and Lord Stevenson, and others who have spoken today to address the issues raised by the noble Lord, Lord Alton, in his amendment. We will endeavour to find all the time possible to have sufficient ground to bring back a government amendment. I hope that the concerns of the noble Lord, Lord Alton, will be rooted in that amendment and with that, I ask him to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool]

My Lords, we have been privileged to hear outstanding speeches from many outstanding Members of your Lordships’ House. We have heard moving, powerful and well-informed contributions throughout the debate. I have great admiration for the sincerity and integrity of the Minister, and the House will be relieved to know that the word “but” does not now follow—at least, not just yet.

I am not precious about the wording of the amendment but I am determined about the principle. The Minister will understand that the House has been determined about that in speech after speech today. The frustration that her noble friends Lord Cormack and Lord Balfe expressed about our procedures and the inadequate way—inevitably, because of the current circumstances—in which we have dealt with this has, I think, not been lost on her either. I have to tell the Minister that a flurry of messages I have been receiving, from those who contributed to the debate and people outside the Chamber, are saying “Please press this to a vote”. It is therefore a tricky thing to decide what to do in these circumstances. After 40 years of battles on the Floors of both our Houses, I am long enough in the tooth to recognise a change of heart when I see it. I see the beginning of a change of heart in what the Minister has said to us today. I am pragmatic about these things; I believe one should accept that in the spirit in which it has been given and try to build on it.

This is where the “but” falls. The four sponsors of the amendment may be called many things—indeed, we all have from time to time been called many things—but I think we have never been described as naive and none of us are gullible. We are all seasoned in the practical art of politics and will of course be wary of Greeks and their gifts. In other words, if the Government are able to produce a human rights threshold with teeth —as the Minister has been urged to do by the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, speaking from the Opposition Front Bench; by the noble Lord, Lord Fox, speaking for the Liberal Democrats; by my noble friend Lady Falkner and many of the Cross-Benchers who contributed to the debate; and, most notably really, by many of her own noble friends because this goes left, right and centre, not just in your Lordships’ House but in the House of Commons—we must find a way to catch the sharks but not the minnows. That is at the heart of what the Minister was saying, and I agree with her about that. We have to catch those who collaborate, aid and abet in these egregious violations of human rights that we have heard about today.

If the Minister is able at Third Reading to come back with an amendment that does those things, then I for one will be the first to stand and applaud it, and to support her. If she is unable to do that, this amendment, thanks to the procedures of your Lordships’ House, will stay in contention. It is important for some of our noble friends and colleagues to realise that if we vote now and this amendment is lost, that will be the end of the matter. There is nothing then to send back to the House of Commons; nothing that people in another place can consider further. But if the matter stays in contention, as the Minister has offered, for another week or 10 days—however long it is before the Bill comes back for Third Reading—then under our procedures this amendment will appear again on the Order Paper, alongside whatever she is able to provide for us.

I hope that the Minister can provide an amendment that cuts to the core of what my noble friend Lady Cox described as a battle of beliefs. I hope that it will do something to overcome some of the issues that the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, raised. These are not insuperable problems; they can all be overcome. Perhaps most importantly of all, such an amendment would set a benchmark and a threshold, showing that we will not do business with people who incarcerate, torture, abduct and silence. We are not prepared to tolerate those things—why should we?

Our values are something that this House has stood for down the generations; although those values have sometimes been tarnished, generally, we have tried in this parliamentary democracy to show what it is we believe in. We have been united in that, in good times and in bad. However, I fear that we have had a crisis of belief. In recent times, we seem to have forgotten the nature of liberal democracy and the things that we stand for as a nation: the rule of law and human rights. My noble friend Lady O’Loan spoke so eloquently about such universal values, as enshrined in the 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

This amendment is a modest attempt—in this Bill and in all the Bills that will follow, on this issue and others—not just for a review, as some have called for, but for a legislative provision with teeth. We have an opportunity. Because of the good will that the Minister has shown, and because I am not naive or gullible and know that there will be a chance to come back on another occasion to both this amendment and to whatever the Government can offer, we will postpone—not cancel—the Division. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

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[The Deputy Speaker]

Let us see if we can get the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, back. No? In that case we will hear from the Minister.

[Baroness Barran]

My Lords, Amendment 6 raises the important issue of competition, about which I think we are all in agreement. Of course the Government think that no operator should be able to prevent another from providing their own service to potential customers living inside a building. We believe that the Bill already ensures that no one is locked into services provided by a single provider. It allows for subsequent operators to apply for and make use of Part 4A orders in the same block of flats, and regulatory measures are already in place to ensure that operators, whenever they install their equipment, not just in this scenario, do not do so in an anti-competitive manner.

I direct noble Lords’ attention to paragraph 27E(4) of the Bill and the terms that will accompany a Part 4A order. These terms set out how Part 4A orders are to be exercised—for example, the time of day that operators can carry out works and that they conform to health and safety standards. We have set out in the Bill the areas that those regulations must include. It has always been our intention that the terms of an agreement impose by a Part 4A order would set out that the operator must not install their equipment in such a way as to physically prevent others from installing their own.

However, as the noble Lord, Lord Fox, put it very elegantly, we aim to simplify the lives of consumers. In response to his remarks and those of my noble friend Lord Holmes, the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, and of course the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, if it would reassure noble Lords then the Government would be willing to table an amendment to the Bill at Third Reading to that effect. We consider it fair to amend the Bill so that it is absolutely clear that these terms should include measures to ensure that an operator must not install their equipment in such an anti-competitive way. If the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, is content with that approach, I ask that he withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara [V]]

Yes, my Lords, I am extremely content. I thank the Minister for that, and I am very happy to beg leave to withdraw by amendment.

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[Lord Fox]

My Lords, I am glad to follow my colleague, my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones. This amendment is largely built on Amendment 21 from Committee. During the response to that amendment, the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson, described the Bill as

“one discrete instrument in the Government’s overall strategy for speeding up the deployment of gigabit broadband.”—[Official Report, 2/6/20; col. 1331.]

What are the other discrete elements of this strategy? What other legislative elements are there? My understanding is that this is the only legislative element currently available—leaving aside the security Bill, which is entirely different and not focused on the delivery of gigabit speeds—which is why I, the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, and others seek to use this as an opportunity for the Government to reaffirm their commitment to one gigabit by 2025. As my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones asked, is 2025 still serious, when the Minister is now using the language of “as soon as possible”, which of course means many things to many people?

This amendment calls for a review of the impact of this Act on the Electronic Communications Code, focusing in particular on progress towards that one-gigabit target by 2025 and looking at whether we should grant rights of access to telecom operators akin to those enjoyed by other utilities. The review would also make recommendations for future amendments and legislation.

As I said in Committee, there is an urgent need to inject some adrenaline into the Bill, as we have seen in other areas, in delivering the 2025 target. Proposed new subsection (1) of the new clause envisioned by this amendment causes Her Majesty’s Government to review the impact of this Bill on the delivery of one-gigabit broadband to every home and business by 2025. As my noble friend pointed out, this is not an unreasonable target, given that it is the Prime Minister’s stated aim and therefore the stated aim of Her Majesty’s Government. We feel that this will be helpful to the department and the Government.

The second proposed new subsection backs this up by requiring the Government to look at what is needed to deliver sufficient support. As my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones just pointed out, there has been significant dialogue around the meaning of “utility”. I too appreciate the response from the Minister and the department. The gist of that response is that there is no single definition of what a utility has or is. I am sure that they are right, because the needs of electricity are different from the needs of water. The industries and their histories are different. Therefore, one would not expect a consistent picture, given how British law is constructed.

However, there is one overriding similarity: the complete assumption that every dwelling and business should have access to electricity, water and so on. These utilities come with a sense of assurance, a halo of necessity, and the legislation around them delivers on that. For all the assurances we have had from the Minister and the Government, this and previous Bills do not give that similar assurance for telecoms infra- structure enjoyed by those other things we call utilities. That is why this amendment is important; it promotes the cause of telecoms infrastructure as a modern-day necessity. If we ever needed evidence of that, this crisis has delivered it. Every day we see in the House of Lords the huge variation and poverty of connection that even your Lordships enjoy, never mind people across the rest of this country. That is why it is important and why the spirit of treating it like a utility is central to this amendment.

Subsection (3) calls for widespread consultation and sensible measures to ensure that both tenants and landowners are listened to. The Minister talked about maintaining the balance between landowners, tenants and property owners; subsection (3) allows that balance to be continued. Subsections (4), (5) and (6) ensure that the review is laid before Parliament within a year and looks at the scope of the code.

At its core, I really do not see why this is objectionable to the Minister or the Government. Indeed, as I have said, it is helpful in that it codifies the Prime Minister’s words into something tangible. That is why we on these Benches and Liberal Democrat Peers attending virtually will support the amendment if it goes to a vote.

[Baroness Barran]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lords for tabling this amendment, which I note is a revised version of the amendment tabled in Committee. I very much appreciate the spirit of this amendment, as set out by the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson. It is designed to be supportive of gigabit broadband deployment and to ensure that the legislative and regulatory environments support that deployment.

As we have discussed on several occasions this afternoon, this Bill has been introduced to address a specific issue. It is not, and has never been intended as, a panacea for the rollout of gigabit connectivity; it is one element of a multifaceted approach to improving the nation’s connectivity. In a moment I will try to set out some more elements of that approach.

I remind noble Lords that we are also bringing forward legislation to ensure that gigabit connectivity is provided to all new-build developments; working to improve the street works regime so that it works better for broadband deployment; and investing £5 billion in areas the market alone is unlikely to reach—which the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox of Newport, quite rightly highlighted.

This measure was designed from the outset to be a precision instrument that supports the 10 million people living in apartment blocks in the UK to access better broadband. It is on this point—the idea of better broadband—that I feel I should begin. We are confident that Part 4A orders will be used by operators predominantly to deliver gigabit-capable connections, as we discussed in Committee, but the Bill does not mention gigabit-capable networks. For that matter, it does not mention broadband, 5G or any type of connection. As noble Lords know, 1 gigabit connectivity is not tech-neutral; not all forms of broadband can deliver 1 gigabit per second of connectivity. For example, copper-based superfast connections would not be able to do that.

The Electronic Communications Code, of which the Bill will form a constituent part, does not mention broadband; nor does it mention any connection speed or anything about the technology installed. The Bill and the code are technology-neutral; I believe there was some confusion on this in Committee. To put that another way: the code deals with the how, where and when of deployment, not about what is installed. I am making this point again because technological neutrality is important, as it allows a consumer to get the connectivity they need from the operator they want at the best price.

None of this is to detract from noble Lords’ appetite to ensure that the Government are on track to deliver gigabit-capable connections, which is entirely understandable and reasonable. Many noble Lords will know that there are already ways in which some or all of the amendment’s effects can be achieved without the need for the amendment. I will give three examples.

First, Ofcom publishes its annual Connected Nations report, which it updates two further times each year. It provides a clear assessment of the progress that the country is making in providing connectivity, both fixed and mobile. I hope your Lordships would agree that the regulator, which is independent of government, is well placed to provide information on the progress of gigabit-capable broadband.

Secondly, the Government continue to answer questions and provide clarity on any aspects of its work in this area, in both this House and the other place. Noble Lords are familiar with asking questions and I endeavour, as always, to answer them.

Thirdly, in this House and in the other place there are established means of scrutiny through Select Committees. Indeed, the DCMS Select Committee in the other place has already launched an inquiry into the Government’s gigabit broadband ambitions. That committee has made it clear that it will

“focus on how realistic the ambition is, what is needed to achieve it, and what the Government’s target will mean for businesses and consumers.”

I hope that that goes to the heart of the spirit of the amendment.

The amendment also asks us to reconsider giving telecoms operators similar rights to access land as those enjoyed by gas, water and electricity operators. This is entirely understandable: the coronavirus pandemic has thrown into sharp relief the increased need for fast, reliable and resilient networks. Indeed, the argument was well made in Committee and I have had further conversations on the issue since then.

It is important to be specific when talking about operators’ access to land. The Electronic Communications Code provides a degree of operational flexibility to telecoms operators. The amendment talks of rights of access “akin” to those of gas, water and electricity. I would be interested to understand precisely where noble Lords think telecoms operators might be disadvantaged. Indeed, the Bill gives them a simple way to apply for rights to gain access to land where there is an unresponsive landlord. It is already giving them more.

That said, I will concede that the rights of telecoms operators are not identical to those of gas, water or electricity operators, but nor do they need to be; they are comparable in many important ways. The code gives operators a framework that incentivises them and landowners to reach a duly negotiated agreement. If, for whatever reason, an agreement is unable to be reached, it allows an application to be made with the court to have rights imposed. Also, Schedule 4 to the Communications Act 2003 makes provision for them to compulsorily purchase land. I hope noble Lords agree that these are quite significant powers. To be clear, there are differences, but I think we would all recognise that certain rights of entry and access are to be expected due to the nature of the gas, water and electricity networks, not least given the potential threat to life that even a minor fault could cause.

In Committee, the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, asked why we had gone back on our assertion in the future telecoms infrastructure review about giving operators similar powers to utilities. I wonder whether some of the issues around that come from that statement in the infrastructure review.

As I tried to point out in Committee, the consultation for the Bill explored the possibility of giving telecoms operators a warrant of entry through the magistrates’ court, similar to the process for operators of other utilities. However, the responses to the consultation made it clear that warrants of entry were not suited to the problem faced by telecoms operators here; they are used largely for single access, for example to remove existing equipment. That is why we consulted on this and the judiciary agreed that it should instead be either the Upper Tribunal Lands Chamber or First-tier Tribunal granting interim rights codes to operators. I hope that I have alighted on the right issue that has given rise to this element of the debate.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Fox]

The issue of 2025 was raised by both of us, so could the Minister clarify that?

[Baroness Barran]

It is still the Government’s intention to deliver gigabit-capable connections to every home and business in the UK as soon as possible. We seek to do that by 2025. The noble Lord will remember that we talked in Committee about the impact of Covid on the rollout; I think that I clarified that we know that there is a short-term impact and we are doing everything we can to try to work through it—but, obviously, none of us can predict the future.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara [V]]

My Lords, I am grateful to those noble Lords who contributed to this short debate. I am particularly grateful to the Minister, who has spent a lot of time going back through some of the discussions that we had on this issue in Committee, and indeed further back than that, to come up with a comprehensive response, which I recognise and welcome. However, the argument that I was trying to make through the amendment—indeed, it carries on from discussions in Committee—was precisely illustrated by what she had to say in her response. The attempt to do this for every property in the country by 2025 must, by its very definition, range across departments other than DCMS, so it would be extraordinary if there was no central planning document at the very least, or legislative background at the highest end, to allow that to work through in the way that we do.

Those of us who have been around the block in government or close to government for many a year recognise that cross-departmental issues—the wicked issues, as they are often called—are always the ones that bring people down. Here we are, trying to suggest to the Government that we recognise that this is what they need; they may not like it and they may find that it causes more difficulties than it solves in the initial stages, but by goodness they will need it by the end of the process—and, as we get closer to 2025, they will definitely wish that they had taken this advice at this time.

To take an example, just on the simple question of reporting and accountability to Parliament, it was said in Committee and repeated today that the combination of Ofcom reports, Oral Questions, debates and Select Committee reports would be tantamount to a regular review carried out by the Government. But it would not. Ofcom is a regulator with separate focuses and functions. Oral Questions are random and not always coherent, and Ministers are expert at making sure that we get the least information for the maximum effort on our part. Debates, Select Committees and special reports are what they are. They are random and they come forward in response to particular and different pressures. They are not in any sense a replacement for a coherent approach in the way that we have talked about in this arrangement.

Having said that, the record of what the Government are currently doing is not to be decried. They are moving on new build and thinking about street works. There is money in the back pocket—£5 billion for hard to reach properties—and there are other lessons to be learned. There will be difficulties—these things are always difficult—but at least there is progress. What we are offering is a coherence and a shape and the legislative back-up to do that. I do think that the Government could have taken our advice and accepted the amendment. But, in the interim, even though it is late, I would like to test the opinion of the House.

Gambling Advertising

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Thursday 25th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to review the rules relating to (1) online, and (2) television, gambling advertising.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, gambling advertising is subject to strict controls on content and placement wherever it appears. Ads must never seek to target children or vulnerable people, and the ASA and the Gambling Commission can take action in the case of a breach. The Government have committed to reviewing the Gambling Act 2005 to make sure that it is fit for the digital age, and we will announce further details on this in due course.

[Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate (Con) [V]]

I say to my noble friend the Minister: enough is enough. We have been discussing gambling and its dangers, particularly to vulnerable people and particularly within the current lockdown, for a long time now, yet we still seem to have an enormous amount of advertising of gambling on both television and radio and, in particular—with no restraint whatever, voluntary or otherwise—on the online systems. I must ask my noble friend that action be taken. If nothing else, can we please return the whole control of gambling to the Home Office, where at least regulations exist that would allow us to take further action to protect our public?

[Baroness Barran]

My noble friend brings great experience to this, including from his time as a Minister at the Home Office. There are no plans currently to move responsibility for gambling to the Home Office, although my department works very closely with the Home Office and others in overseeing this. In relation to my noble friend’s comments about social media, work is going on specifically on that area to make sure that adverts are not targeted at people under 25 or at children. We are working actively with the platforms to ensure that gambling ads do not appear for those who have self-excluded from gambling.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, almost a year ago on 2 July, in a parliamentary Statement, the Government announced three measures agreed with gaming companies to

“deliver real and meaningful progress on support for problem gamblers”.—[Official Report, 2/7/19; col. 1345.]

The noble Lord, Lord Ashton of Hyde, said the Government expected change and, if it did not manifest, would take other measures and did not rule out legislation. Is the Government’s judgment that the industry’s actions are delivering real, meaningful progress? What metrics are the Government using, and will they publish their calculations?

[Baroness Barran]

The main metric that the Government use to measure the extent of problem gambling is the British Gambling Prevalence Survey, which looks at population levels of problem gambling. That has remained unchanged over 20 years, at slightly below 1%. I appreciate the context of the noble Lord’s question: with the prevalence of gambling advertising and promotion, intuitively one would expect that figure to rise, but there is not evidence for that at the moment.

[Lord Browne of Belmont (DUP) [V]]

My Lords, although GAMSTOP has clearly been an effective tool that has enabled problem gamblers to control their activities online, repetitive advertising on social media, particularly on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter, remains a problem. Does the Minister agree that there should be discussions with the leading social media companies to seek a solution which would prevent the reappearance of advertisements which a user has, on a previous occasion, decided to hide?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Barran]

My Lords, I struggled slightly to hear the noble Lord’s question, so if my answer is not accurate I will happily write, but I think the question was around social media. A lot of work is going on in that area, with the platforms, to ensure that those who have excluded themselves already are not targeted by advertising and that children and vulnerable people are not targeted.

[Lord Robathan (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I am a gambler, I confess, and I am very much opposed to the nanny state. However, Blair’s Gambling Act has made some people very rich—some disgustingly rich, frankly—at the expense of the vulnerable and of some of the poorest members of our society. Banning television and online advertisements and, indeed, those at football grounds as well, would not be government interference; it would be a necessary step to protect some people who are, frankly, unable to look after themselves. Will my noble friend please look at that very carefully?

[Baroness Barran]

I thank my noble friend for his honesty and his question. We will obviously be reviewing a range of options when we come to review the Gambling Act. The evidence around the impact of advertising on problem gambling, as opposed to all gambling, is really not clear, with much suggesting that, particularly for young people, it is parents and their peers who have the greatest influence on their behaviour.

[Lord Foster of Bath (LD) [V]]

My Lords, among problem gamblers, 55,000 are 11 to 16 year-old children, many of whom use legal music and film download websites that are often funded by gambling advertising. Will the Government immediately consider legislation to enable these sites to be blocked, and not wait for the long overdue review of gambling legislation?

[Baroness Barran]

The noble Lord raises a very important point, which I am happy to take back to my colleagues in the department and the Minister responsible.

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

Is my noble friend aware of the recent review of 23 April that claimed there is too much gambling advertising on TV? While I recognise that the gambling group has halted TV and radio ads during lockdown, is not the area where action needs to be taken the really worrying aspect of special offers for casino gambling, which we all know is addictive? Will my noble friend look very seriously at this problem?

[Baroness Barran]

On gambling advertising on television, again, this feels counterintuitive, but the data from the ASA shows that in 2013 children saw 4.4 gambling ads each week and that had fallen to 2.5 in 2019. Obviously, we introduced the whistle-to-whistle ban on advertising on matches on television. In relation to online casinos, the Gambling Commission recently recommended curbs on VIP schemes across various forms of gambling, which will be implemented in the coming months. It is committed to addressing any additional gaps that are identified.

[Baroness Watkins of Tavistock (CB) [V]]

Excessive gambling is a public health challenge, with thousands of people—as the noble Baroness just said, 1% of the population—incurring debt and a high proportion of those experiencing mental health problems. Yet we continue to be one of the top 10 countries for gambling advertising online based on knowledge-based marketing. Will the Minister inform the House whether the Government intend to further limit such advertising, particularly pop-up ads on social media platforms, to absolve the need to self-exclude? This would prevent the associated harm to health caused by gambling.

[Baroness Barran]

I regret I can only repeat what I have already said in terms of the close work that is going on with the social media companies and the commitment from the Gambling Commission to address any additional gaps that are identified. However, the noble Baroness makes an important point, which we recognise.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab) [V]]

As a recent APPG report confirms, gambling companies have done extremely well out of the pandemic, mainly because of the growth in unregulated activity. There is a lot of talk about working with the social media companies, but no action seems ever to follow. Will the Minister confirm that one of the real and meaningful steps that the Government actually could take to safeguard children and vulnerable players would be by blocking certain online platforms? Will she do that? If not, why not?

[Baroness Barran]

Just to be clear again on the data, unsurprisingly, because there has been no sport during lockdown, 75% of people have not increased their expenditure either of time or money on gambling during lockdown. We should not be surprised about that because there has been no sport broadcast. We are looking at a range of measures and waiting for evidence being published by Public Health England and the National Institute for Health Research. We are preparing a national addiction strategy. The Government are absolutely committed to addressing the problems that arise from gambling and other addictive behaviours, but doing that in the round rather than in a piecemeal fashion.

[The Deputy Speaker (The Earl of Kinnoull) (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has now elapsed, and we will therefore move to the third Oral Question.

Data Strategy

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Wednesday 24th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to promote a wider public debate about their future data strategy.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, the national data strategy’s development has benefited from extensive engagement and input across government, wider stakeholders and the public. Through the summer and autumn of 2019, the Government completed a public-facing call for evidence and in-depth public engagement, with 20 round-table discussions held across the country with over 250 organisations. The Government remain committed to publishing the strategy in 2020 and will seek further input from business, civil society and the wider public. Further plans will be announced in due course.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I am glad to hear that the publication date for the White Paper has not slipped as far as some feared it might under these circumstances. I trust that the Government recognise the importance of carrying the wider public with them in going through their digital transformation, which ought to improve the efficiency of government and provide a better service for citizens. Given public unease about privacy and the security of data, would it not be better if the Government were to reopen a public debate before publishing the White Paper to ensure that the public are not taken by surprise by the proposals and that, as far as possible, the Daily Mail-type campaigns about how wicked and dreadful it is to take your data are not sparked off by having this sprung upon them?

[Baroness Barran]

There is obviously a lot of debate already in the public domain about the use of data. We have a number of examples, driven, sadly, by the Covid-19 pandemic, where data has been used to great effect and which I think the public are aware of. The Government have no plans beyond those I have mentioned to reopen the debate formally before the strategy is published.

[Lord Desai (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, data is supposed to be the new source of wealth—the new oil. Last time around, we wasted the North Sea oil money on propping up the unemployment created by Mrs Thatcher. Do the Government have any plan to harness the wealth creation capacity of the data? Will they set up a proper sovereign wealth fund, which could harness the money raised by the data under the nation’s control?

[Baroness Barran]

Our plans for our data strategy are extremely ambitious. We see it as a crucial part of driving economic prosperity and social good. We believe that we have laid the foundations for that already and will announce more detail in due course.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD) [V]]

My Lords, the Government’s call for evidence on digital identity was issued in July 2019; it rightly emphasised the importance of public trust and the role that a successful approach to digital identity can play in the use of public data. That call closed last September, so is it not high time that we had some policy proposals in this crucial area, too—especially given the failures of the past, such as Verify—so as to ensure that, as techUK has suggested, we create a framework of standards that can be used by all players in this field?

[Baroness Barran]

The noble Lord is right that digital identity and having clarity on that is critical. The Government have been very open about having had some unavoidable delays, most particularly around the election and now, sadly, with Covid. Part of the work within the strategy will be to identify which areas and datasets to prioritise and focus on.

[Lord Balfe (Con) [V]]

Can the Minister give us an assurance that the Government will not let public data go into private hands and then be kept there in such a way that it cannot be accessed by other people within the public sector? There is a concern that private companies may get hold of public data and that it will then be lost to wider policy-making.

[Baroness Barran]

My noble friend’s last point is spot on, in the sense of the value of good data to public policy-making. I think many of us are looking forward to that. Crucially, part of it must be that we uphold those principles of transparency, accountability, inclusion and, obviously, lawfulness. They will be part of the considerations that we look at.

[Baroness Lane-Fox of Soho (CB) [V]]

My Lords, one of the things that I found while digital champion for the UK was the shocking lack of data literacy within government. What plans does the Minister have to ensure that all people working as special advisers, Cabinet-level Ministers or those within their departments are equipped to understand the implications of the data strategy? Does she think that there should now be a more high-level “Minister for Data”, responsible for unleashing the silo-based approach that has hitherto been used?

[Baroness Barran]

The noble Baroness makes an important point; I think it is one she has perhaps made previously, but it definitely bears repeating. We are clear in what we have said already that this will never be successful without raising data literacy skills, not only within government but across the nation. That is work in progress and her point about the importance of strong leadership, given the complexity and scale of this challenge, is well made.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, there was press comment recently about the Centre for Data Ethics and Innovation’s report on immunity passport technology. The Full Fact chief executive officer, Will Moy, asked whether this was

“a poor exercise in public reassurance”

or a “contribution to policy thinking”. Which is it, and what is the current status of the CDEI? Is it an independent public body or part of DCMS?

[Baroness Barran]

I trust that the work in that report, and all the reports from the CDEI, is there to help us advance our understanding of these extremely complex issues. The department certainly finds the work of the centre extremely valuable in informing our thinking.

[Lord German (LD) [V]]

My Lords, the Government signed up to lowered personal data protection standards in their deal with the USA on handling serious crime and security. That has led to a major difficulty in producing an adequate solution for a deal on these matters with the EU. How will the Government now ensure that our personal data is protected to a high enough standard to be able to tackle serious crime and security issues across the UK and the EU?

[Baroness Barran]

I do not think the Government would accept that we have compromised our data security standards. We keep them under review at all times and this is obviously a fast-moving area. We remain confident that we can obtain a full agreement on data adequacy by the year end and are optimistic that that will be the case.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op) [V]]

My Lords, since the Government have unilaterally ended the daily media briefing, how do they now intend to publicise regularly, preferably daily, all the essential data about the pandemic?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Barran]

The Government use a number of different media outlets, including social media. We take very seriously our responsibility to communicate across a range of media, so that anybody who needs that data and is interested in getting access to it can do so.

[Viscount Trenchard (Con)]

My Lords, the EU has set out its data strategy and aims to become a global regulatory role-model for the digital economy. My noble friend Lady Morgan of Cotes set out a similar vision for the UK

“to lead the world in nimble, proportionate and pro-innovation regulation”.

According to a recent survey, 50% of SMEs are still non-compliant with GDPR. What scope is there for the UK to diverge from the more cumbersome and expensive obligations of GDPR?

[Baroness Barran]

Our priority at this stage is to achieve full agreement with the EU in relation to data adequacy. As my noble friend knows, an enormous amount of data-related trade happens between the EU and the UK. We are anxious to secure that it should continue, albeit within an agile approach, as he rightly says.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Alderdice) (LD)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed. We now come to the fourth Oral Question. I call the noble Lord, Lord Farmer.