Oral Answers to Questions
Baroness May of Maidenhead Excerpts(12 years, 1 month ago)
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Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab)
1. What change in the number of front-line police officers there has been since May 2010.
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
May I take this opportunity first to welcome the 41 police and crime commissioners who were elected last Thursday? They have important responsibilities and will be an important voice for people in their force areas in policing local communities. Police and crime commissioners take up their office officially this Thursday. I look forward to working with them in future to do everything we can to ensure that we can continue to cut crime.
Between March 2010 and March 2012, the total number of front-line officers fell by 6,778.
Mr Slaughter
There are more people here than voted for police and crime commissioners.
The Mayor of London has cut 3,500 police officers and police community support officers in the last two years. The Metropolitan police is getting rid of borough commanders and neighbourhood sergeants, and closing 65 police stations to the public across London, including Shepherd’s Bush in my constituency and South Norwood in Croydon North. Does the Home Secretary think that will make the public in London feel safer or less safe?
Mrs May
Of course, the Metropolitan police has put forward some proposals today in relation to its budget, including proposals to cut central costs significantly and actually increase the number of constables. Neither the hon. Gentleman nor those on his Front Bench are able to get it yet. The Opposition have continually claimed that it is not possible to cut budgets without damaging front-line services or without crime going up; yet budgets are being cut, front-line services are being protected, the number of neighbourhood officers is going up and crime is falling.
Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)
As the Home Secretary correctly says, it is possible to do more with less, as the recent crime statistics have demonstrated. Does she agree that the election of PCCs, such as the excellent Angus Macpherson in Wiltshire—the first ever to be announced—is central to deciding how we can use scarce resources to best effect in tackling crime?
Mrs May
I congratulate Angus Macpherson on his election; indeed, it was good to see that as the first result. My hon. Friend is absolutely right that PCCs will have an important role to play in ensuring that police forces are delivering against their budgets in a way that we all want, which is by ensuring the protection of services such that we can continue to cut crime.
Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) (Lab)
In last week’s elections for the Home Secretary’s flagship policy, 85% of the public decided not to vote. She chose to spend £100 million on having these elections and this transition, which could have been spent on 3,000 police officers this year. She chose to hold the elections in November, to get the Home Office to run them and to deny the public proper information. She was warned in the Commons and the Lords, and by the Electoral Commission and the Electoral Reform Society, that those decisions were wrong. Given the overwhelming public message she received last week, will she now tell us which of those decisions she regrets?
Mrs May
The right hon. Lady really needs to get her story straight on this. She complains about the amount of money that was spent on the police and crime commissioner elections, yet in the same breath she wants more money to be spent on them. Which is it: too much money or too little?
Yvette Cooper
That was not an answer to the question. The Home Secretary has to take some responsibility for the shambles that she has created. In April she got the decision and the date wrong over Abu Qatada by accident; in November she got the date wrong on the elections deliberately. By not holding them in November, she could have saved £25 million alone, but she chose not to. People did not want these elections last week. They said it was a waste of money, they said they did not know anything about it, they objected to the policy and they did not want to vote in the dark. She did not listen to those warnings and she is not listening to the public now or the message that they sent last week. Why does she not listen to them and apologise for the shambles that this Home Secretary and her decisions have created?
Mrs May
I make no apology for introducing police and crime commissioners, who have a democratic mandate for the first time. For the first time, the public know that there is somebody who has been elected who is visible, accessible and accountable to them. PCCs have replaced invisible, unaccountable, unelected police authorities. I think police and crime commissioners are going to make a real difference to cutting crime in this country.
John Penrose (Weston-super-Mare) (Con)
Last week there was also a parliamentary by-election in Manchester Central, where the turnout was 18%, yet I notice that nobody is arguing that it was in any way a shambles or that there was a lack of a democratic mandate. Does my right hon. Friend agree that all this says more about the Opposition’s party political point scoring than about any concern for police matters?
Mrs May
My hon. Friend makes an important point. I would also point out to the shadow Home Secretary, the right hon. Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper), that I believe that there was a freepost in that by-election, although it did not seem to drive up the turn-out. I have heard no comments about the legitimacy of the individual who has been elected as a Member of Parliament.
Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab)
2. What plans she has to review the timing, frequency and communication of changes to the immigration rules and associated guidance.
Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con)
10. What steps her Department is taking through the visa system to enable business and tourist visitors to contribute to economic growth.
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
The UK Border Agency supports economic growth through delivering an effective visa service, which processed almost 2 million applications for visitor visas in 2011, and exceeding our public commitment to process 90% of cases within 15 working days. We take our economic responsibilities seriously and the UK Border Agency is constantly looking to improve the service it offers. Amongst other measures, it has launched priority services, such as providing a five-day visa service, premium lounges for high-value customers and out-of-hours appointments at visa application centres.
Peter Aldous
What steps is my right hon. Friend taking to speed up clearance and entry for Chinese business visitors, tourists and investors who have been identified by Visit East Anglia, Suffolk chamber of commerce and chambers of commerce across the UK as a vital means of growing international trade and export markets?
Mrs May
I thank my hon. Friend for highlighting the issue of Chinese visitors to the UK. That is an important market for the UK and I am pleased to say that we have seen some strong growth in the number of Chinese visitors to the UK for both business and tourism. It is one of our priority markets, so we have undertaken a number of changes to our system. Half our Chinese business customers, for example, now benefit from access to a priority scheme. We have opened new expanded visa application centres in a number of cities, but we will continue to look at what we do to ensure that our clear message is that Britain is open for business and has a functioning visa system that ensures that those whom we wish to welcome to the UK can come.
Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab)
It is no good saying that we are open for business when the perception out there is that we are not. Will the Home Secretary consider meeting admission tutors from the Russell group and representatives of chambers of commerce to familiarise herself with what is happening on the ground? The perception is that we are not open for business and that access is not as quick as it should be.
Mrs May
One problem is that a lot of people are claiming that the UK is not open for business because of our visa system. The former Immigration Minister went out to visit China and clearly gave out the message. The former and current Immigration Ministers and I have met people from the universities, the CBI and other business sectors to talk to them about the issue. It is not just for the Government to go out and say that Britain is open for business—business organisations and universities should give out that message. As the Immigration Minister said earlier, UCAS figures show that the number of applications from non-EU overseas students to our universities has gone up. The universities should stop claiming that there is a problem and go out and say that they are open for business.
David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)
11. What assessment she has made of the potential for achieving savings through economies of scale in police procurement.
Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab)
13. When she plans to meet the police and crime commissioner for Greater Manchester.
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
I welcome Tony Lloyd to his new role as the first police and crime commissioner for Greater Manchester. I am writing, I hope today, to all PCCs in advance of their assuming office on Thursday, to congratulate them and to invite them to join me and my ministerial team for an event on 3 December.
Paul Goggins
I am grateful for that answer and for the warm welcome from the Home Secretary. I am sure that when she meets Tony Lloyd, she will want to thank him for standing in the election because without Labour last Thursday, the turnout in Greater Manchester would have been lower than 7%. Given the level of concern expressed during the campaign about antisocial behaviour, will she review her current approach and, instead of rebranding and weakening antisocial behaviour orders, will she work with Tony Lloyd and other police and crime commissioners to strengthen the law in this respect so that those who make other people’s lives unbearable can be dealt with effectively?
Mrs May
I note that Tony Lloyd, referring to the turnout at the elections, said:
“It doesn’t take away the mandate of the PCC… That, like any good politician, is earned not only at the election; it’s earned by working with the public, being there to listen to the public and to represent the public.”
On antisocial behaviour orders, we are strengthening the ability of the police and others to work against antisocial behaviour. Crucially, we are giving local communities and individuals greater powers, such as the community trigger, which will enable people, if action is not being taken on antisocial behaviour, to require that action is taken. That did not happen under the Labour party.
Gloria De Piero (Ashfield) (Lab)
Let me tell the Home Secretary:
“What we ended up with was a toxic mix of low voter awareness about the role, the absence of an active public information campaign, near silence from politicians and polling day moved to a time of year when it gets dark at 4 pm.”
Those are the words of the Conservative Member for Bournemouth West (Conor Burns). In truth, Members across the House have raised concerns about the elections. Does she accept that any mistakes were made?
Mrs May
As I have said elsewhere, of course I am disappointed about the turnout. I believe that the turnout at the next elections will be higher because people will have seen police and crime commissioners in their role and the commissioners will have a record to defend, as the right hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East (Paul Goggins) has just said, but it was up to politicians across the board and others to go out and campaign, and the Government did run an awareness campaign. I return to the point I made at the beginning of Question Time: police and crime commissioners replace police authorities, which were invisible, unaccountable and unelected. Police and crime commissioners are elected, visible, accessible and, crucially, accountable to the people.
Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab)
14. What discussions she has had with the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs on the effectiveness of the Gangmasters Licensing Authority in tackling trafficked labour.
Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con)
T1. If she will make a statement on her departmental responsibilities.
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
The Government have a comprehensive programme of police reform. To make policing more professional and evidence-based, we are establishing a college of policing. To get tough on organised crime, we are establishing the National Crime Agency. To ensure we reward specialist skills, we are reforming police pay. To give the public a stronger voice, we have introduced crime maps and mandatory beat meetings, and the election of police and crime commissioners will give the public a say for the first time in how their local police forces are run. Police reform is working; the front-line service is being maintained and crime is falling. I commend police officers for their achievements.
Christopher Pincher
Since the passage of the Human Rights Act a decade ago, the time taken to deport potentially dangerous individuals, such as Abu Hamza and now Abu Qatada, has reached unacceptable lengths. Will my right hon. Friend pursue any and all measures to ensure that those people who may represent a threat to our country can be quickly deported from our country?
Mrs May
My hon. Friend raises a point that I know is of concern not only to Members of this House, but to many members of the public. I assure him that the Government are looking at pursuing a number of avenues to ensure that we can reduce the length of time it takes both to deport people from this country and, indeed, to extradite people. In the case of Abu Hamza, the judiciary has itself made comments about the need to look at the processes that we follow, to ensure that we can use not only the reforms of the European Court, but those in our own judicial processes to reduce the length of time it takes to deport those people who are a potential threat to this country.
Simon Danczuk (Rochdale) (Lab)
T2. Following my comments in the House about Cyril Smith’s abuse of boys, I understand that the Crown Prosecution Service has now located investigation files relating to Smith from the 1960s. Could the Home Secretary now look at whether it is true that the then Director of Public Prosecutions received a second opinion recommending that Smith be prosecuted; why he concluded that it was not in the public interest; what role, if any, the security services played; and how the Government intend to get to the bottom of what several former police officers are now referring to as a cover-up?
Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con)
T7. To many, it seems that the rights of dangerous hate preachers are now more important than the rights of the British people to a peaceful and secure life. What steps is the Secretary of State taking to ensure the safety of the British people and that there is no place in this country for those who would harm us?
Mrs May
As my hon. Friend points out, he is raising a concern that is felt by many members of the public. Obviously, we have recently had the judgment in relation to Abu Qatada, which I think may have triggered my hon. Friend’s thinking on this issue. We are seeking leave to appeal that judgment, but we will also continue to work with the Jordanian Government to see what can be done. We will pursue all avenues to ensure that we can deport Abu Qatada. This Government have taken a stronger line on whether we allow those who can be described as hate preachers into this country and have ensured that fewer of them cross our shores.
Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab)
The Home Secretary will be aware that there are concerns about the provisions in the Justice and Security Bill, which is being debated in the other place today, that introduce closed material proceedings. The provisions will enable judges to see all the evidence in cases that affect national security, while protecting vital intelligence. Will she work with the Minister without Portfolio, the right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke) to reassure Members of the Lords and of this House that those proceedings, while essential, will be used only when absolutely necessary?
Mrs May
I am happy to give the right hon. Lady an assurance to that effect. This is an important Bill, because in a very small but growing number of cases, it is not possible for the Government to defend themselves because the information cannot be made available in open court. As a result, settlements have to be made and there is no justice, because there is no trial or judgment on the rights and wrongs of the case. Hence, there is a desire to introduce closed material proceedings in a very limited number of cases, where it is necessary and proportionate. I am obviously working with my right hon. and learned Friend the Minister without Portfolio to that end.
Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con)
T8. The net receipts under the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 were £165 million last year. I appreciate that a fair chunk of that money is reinvested in local crime-fighting initiatives, but will the ministerial team look at the percentage that is allocated to local community projects, so that more groups like the Thornton Lodge action group can be successful in their bids?
Mr Richard Bacon (South Norfolk) (Con)
T9. Mindful of the Home Secretary’s well known views on the Human Rights Act 1998, but also of the difficulties of coalition government, will she persuade the Leader of the House to make time available for my forthcoming ten-minute rule Bill, which would repeal that Act?
David Wright (Telford) (Lab)
Police and community support officers are incredibly popular in West Mercia, and their numbers should be sustained at current levels. Does the Home Secretary believe that, by the time of next election, the number of PCSOs in the West Mercia area and in Telford will be at current levels, or will there be fewer or more?
Mrs May
The change that we have made as a Government is that we say to local police forces, “With the police and crime commissioners in place, it will be up to you to decide how you wish to have the staffing, and the numbers that you want.” That decision will be taken at police force area level, not dictated by the Home Office. I believe that that is right.
Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD)
Will the Home Secretary join me in congratulating the Metropolitan Police Commissioner, not only on reducing crime figures in the London area, but on his ambition to have 2,000 extra police constables each year for the next three years so that, by March 2015, there will be a record number of 26,000 police constables in Greater London? Will she congratulate him—effusively, if she wants?
Mrs May
I am happy to commend the work that the Mayor of London as police commissioner and the deputy Mayor have done for several years, although the Mayor formally became a police and crime commissioner only in January this year. He has always emphasised recruiting and the number of constables who are out there and available. Obviously, the Met and the deputy Mayor, who has responsibility for crime and policing, are looking carefully at the Met’s budget to ensure that they can take out waste and that the money is spent cost effectively, as they said today, on recruiting more constables.
Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Lab)
Given the large number of voluntary organisations around the country, including SAIVE in Staffordshire, that look to provide counselling for the children who were abused in sex scandals, will the Home Secretary consider assessing the extra resources that are needed to provide counselling as a result of the inquiries that she has set up?
Mrs May
I think I recall that the hon. Lady raised the point when I made the statement on north Wales. I have taken away that issue. Obviously, the Home Office does not provide the particular service that she mentioned, which comes under other Departments. I will raise the matter with those Departments.
Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood) (Con)
Does the Home Secretary agree with the conclusion of the Home Affairs Committee that, compared with police authorities, the police and crime commissioners will
“have a greater incentive to make savings since the level of police precept will be one of the most visible indicators of their performance to their electorate”?
Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab)
Some women asylum seekers end up on the detained fast-track procedure because they have been reluctant to disclose sexual violence and abuse. How can Ministers ensure that the system will be sensitive to such women’s experiences?
Abu Qatada
Baroness May of Maidenhead Excerpts(12 years, 1 month ago)
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The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
With permission, Mr Speaker, I shall make a statement about a court ruling on Abu Qatada.
Earlier today, the Special Immigration Appeals Commission upheld Abu Qatada’s appeal against his deportation. I hardly need to tell the House that the Government strongly disagree with that ruling. Qatada is a dangerous man, a suspected terrorist who is accused of serious crimes in his home country of Jordan. The British Government have obtained from the Jordanian Government assurances not just in relation to the treatment of Qatada himself, but about the quality of the legal processes that would be followed throughout his trial. We will therefore seek leave to appeal against today’s decision.
It is important to note that SIAC ruled that the Jordanian Government
“will do everything within their power to ensure that a retrial is fair.”
The court said that
“the Jordanian judiciary, like their executive counterparts, are determined to ensure that the appellant will receive, and be seen to receive, a fair retrial.”
SIAC also said that
“if the only question which we had to answer was whether or not, in a general sense, the appellant would be subjected to a flagrantly unfair retrial in Jordan, our unhesitating answer would be that he would not.”
Those words demonstrate the extent of the co-operation between the Jordanian and British Governments in the assurances that we received.
The House will remember the ruling by the European Court of Human Rights in January that Qatada could not be deported because of the risk that evidence obtained through the alleged mistreatment of two co-defendants from previous trials might be used in a new trial. I still believe that that ruling was wrong, but since then the Jordanian Government have provided the British Government with further specific assurances and information about the quality of any trial that Qatada will face, and the assurances directly address the issues raised by the European Court.
First, the state security court, which would hear Qatada’s case, is not a quasi-military court, as Strasbourg suggested, but a legitimate part of the Jordanian legal system that considers criminal cases. Moreover, the Jordanian Government have promised to ensure that Qatada’s case would be heard by civilian, not military, judges.
Secondly, on his return to Jordan, Qatada’s conviction in absentia would be quashed. He would be detained in a civilian detention centre, open to international inspection; he would have access to defence lawyers, who would be present during any questioning; and he would have the opportunity to make a fresh statement on his involvement in these cases.
Thirdly, while Qatada’s co-defendants from previous trials would be compelled to give evidence, they are both now free men, so we can be confident that they would give truthful testimony. SIAC also agreed that Qatada’s lawyers would be able to cross-examine those men during his trial. The Jordanian expert witness told SIAC that their evidence would anyway no longer be admissible, although the absence of case law and other witness statements meant that SIAC could not be sure that that was the position.
In addition, torture has been illegal in Jordan since 2006, and last year the Jordanian constitution was amended to make it clear that not only is torture forbidden, but
“any statement extracted from a person under duress...or the threat thereof shall neither be taken into consideration or relied on.”
That is a direct quotation from article 8.2 of the Jordanian constitution.
Despite these assurances, despite the determination of the Jordanian Government and judiciary to allow Qatada a fair trial, despite the change to the Jordanian constitution that expressly prohibits torture and the use of evidence obtained by torture, in the absence of clear case law, Mr Justice Mitting still found in Qatada’s favour. In doing so, we believe he applied the wrong legal test. But as a result of that decision, Mr Justice Mitting has also ruled that, from tomorrow, Qatada will be granted bail, subject to a 16-hour curfew. In addition, Government lawyers are arguing for the most restrictive bail conditions possible, and those conditions will be published by the court in the morning.
It is deeply unsatisfactory that Abu Qatada has not already been deported to Jordan. Successive Governments have tried to remove him since December 2001. He has a long-standing association with al-Qaeda. British courts have found that he
“provides a religious justification for acts of violence and terror.”
In Jordan, he has been tried and found guilty in absentia of planning to attack western and Israeli targets.
It is also deeply unsatisfactory that the European Court of Human Rights continues to move the goalposts for Governments trying to deport dangerous foreign nationals. The Court has long-standing case law in relation to article 3 of the European convention prohibiting torture and inhuman or degrading treatment, and successive British Governments have secured deportation with assurance agreements with other Governments, so deportations can proceed in accordance with the law, but the Court’s unprecedented ruling in January in relation to article 6—the right to a fair trial—has added yet another barrier to deportation.
Notwithstanding the fact that I still believe that the European Court’s ruling was wrong, I also believe that we have obtained from the Jordanian Government the information and assurances that would allow us to deport Qatada in compliance with that ruling and the law. That is why we disagree with today’s decision, and that is why we are seeking leave to appeal. The Government have been doing everything we can to get rid of Abu Qatada, and we will continue to do so. I commend this statement to the House.
Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) (Lab)
This is an extremely serious and worrying judgment that means that, from tomorrow, Abu Qatada will be back on Britain’s streets. People across this country will be horrified to learn that that is the case. It also completely contradicts the Home Secretary’s assurances to this House that she had the right legal strategy and evidence to get Abu Qatada deported to Jordan. The information from security experts, the Home Secretary and judges and the courts is that this is an extremely dangerous extremist who is a threat to national security. We all want him to be deported to stand fair trial abroad as soon as possible, and to be held in custody in the meantime to keep people safe.
The Home Secretary is right to appeal against this judgment as every avenue to secure Abu Qatada’s deportation must be pursued. However, there are some very serious questions that now need to be answered about the Home Secretary’s strategy to get this deportation in place and about the action she is now taking to keep the public safe.
The Home Secretary told us in April that the best way to deport Abu Qatada was not to appeal against the European Court judgment, but to rely on evidence from Jordan in the British immigration courts, and she gave very strong assurances to Parliament and the public that Abu Qatada would be quickly removed from this country. In April she told us that
“today Qatada has been arrested and the deportation is under way.”
She said:
“I am confident of our eventual success”
and
“I believe that the assurances and the information that we have gathered will mean that we can soon put Qatada on a plane and get him out of our country for good.”—[Official Report, 17 April 2012; Vol. 543, c.173-178.]
Far from being put on a plane, he is soon going to be out on our streets, and if the Home Secretary’s appeal fails, he will be a free man.
It is clear now that all the Home Secretary’s promises and assurances were overblown and her strategy has fallen apart as a result of this decision. Like her, I am concerned about the SIAC conclusion given the assurances Jordan has provided, to which she rightly referred. She also rightly referred to the SIAC view that Abu Qatada will not be subjected to “a flagrantly unfair retrial”, and that is why we believe he should be deported. However, the immigration court also makes it clear that it is bound by the European Court judgment:
“all that we can do is to return to the basic Strasbourg test: has the Secretary of State established that there is not a real risk that the impugned statements will be admitted probatively? To that question…the answer must be negative”.
It is clear that the court believes there is a new test established. The Home Secretary blames that European Court judgment and says she disagrees with it, so why on earth did she not appeal against it when she had the chance to do so, and as we urged at the time?
Secondly, what is the Home Secretary now doing to get that deportation back on track? We support the appeal. We hope she will be successful in arguing that the wrong legal test has been applied, but that is not enough. Has she started further discussions with Jordan? Has she put her junior Minister straight on a plane? The immigration court has said that what it needs now is a
“change to the Code of Criminal Procedure”.
What is she doing to pursue that, or other alternatives that might overturn that court decision?
Thirdly, what is the Home Secretary doing to keep the public safe in the meantime? Tomorrow, Abu Qatada will be released on bail. Is she preparing an application for a terrorism prevention and investigation measure? That would be weaker than the control orders she chose to abolish. If her appeal fails, she will need to take further action. Under her new system of TPIMs, he will still be able to meet contacts in London, use his mobile phone, have access to the internet and only have his movement restricted overnight. We have asked her about that repeatedly, but will she please now look again at her decision to water down counter-terror powers in the light of this case?
This judgment overturns the Home Secretary’s strategy to get Abu Qatada deported and to keep him in custody in the meantime. Her confidence and complacency have proved to be a mistake. There has been a catalogue of confusion and mistakes on Abu Qatada, including the Home Secretary getting basic dates wrong earlier this year. There is cross-party agreement on the importance of deporting Abu Qatada and protecting the public. We cannot afford further confusion and mistakes. The Home Secretary needs to take urgent action now to keep the public safe, and get this deportation back on track.
Mrs May
The shadow Home Secretary made a number of points, some of which, I have to say, were either wrong or irrelevant to what we have heard today. She seems to be trying to argue that the Government have not been doing enough to deport Abu Qatada. I can assure her and the whole House that, if it was the case that this was one of those situations where it was just a question of a decision by the Home Secretary, Abu Qatada would have been on the plane on 12 May 2010. However, it is not that simple and we have to work in accordance with the ruling of the courts.
The work that we have undertaken with the Jordanians, which she referred to and seemed to brush to one side as if it was nothing, is unprecedented. The security Minister visited Jordan; I visited Jordan; and the Prime Minister has raised the issue with the King of Jordan. We have secured information and assurances that I still maintain should enable us to deport Qatada. Although the right hon. Lady was dismissive of those assurances, I will remind her, as I said in my statement, of what Mr Justice Mitting said about them. He said that the Jordanian Government
“will do everything within their power to ensure a retrial is fair.”
He continued:
“The Jordanian judiciary, like their executive counterparts, are determined to ensure that the appellant will receive, and be seen to receive, a fair retrial.”
SIAC stated that
“if the only question which we had to answer was whether or not, in a general sense, the appellant would be subjected to a flagrantly unfair retrial in Jordan, our unhesitating answer would be that he would not.”
The right hon. Lady asked whether we will continue our negotiations with the Jordanians. We are very grateful for the significant assurances the Jordanian Government have already provided. Of course, our work with the Jordanians will continue in the light of today’s judgment. The Jordanian Government put out a statement earlier today, which said:
“We understand there will be an appeal and accordingly we will work with them”—
that is, the UK Government—
“to be able to bring him back to justice here in Jordan. Concerning the fear of a fair trial for him—there were guarantees for the British government on that, but also our constitution and our judicial system guarantees him that.”
I am grateful to the Jordanian Government for that support.
The right hon. Lady raised the issue of bail conditions. Abu Qatada will be subject to a 16-hour curfew. Other conditions will be determined by the court and announced tomorrow. I believe that a 16-hour curfew is as strict as the strictest of control orders, so I am afraid that what she says is not the case, and she needs to look at that issue again.
The right hon. Lady referred to the new test and to the relative merits of the article 3 and article 6 issues. Those are different matters: Governments have for a long time been able to seek assurances about article 3 —that process is mature and has existed for many years—whereas the need for assurances about article 6 emerged only because of the European Court’s unprecedented judgment early this year.
The right hon. Lady asked whether it would have been better had we referred the case to the Grand Chamber of the European Court. On that, she is wrong. Her argument seems to be that the European Court—the very court that has caused this difficulty by setting up a new barrier to deportation—is the solution to the problem. Not only is that palpably ridiculous, but an appeal to the Grand Chamber would have risked our wider deportation policies—[Interruption.] I suggest that she listens to this point. An appeal would also have made it harder to deport further terrorists, had we lost the appeal. It would have been unwise, as well as fruitless.
In April, and again today, the shadow Home Secretary told the House:
“We all want Abu Qatada deported as soon as possible, under the rule of law”.—[Official Report, 19 April 2012; Vol. 543, c. 508.]
Unless she is prepared to break the rule of law, she has no solutions other than what the Government have already done. I suggest that, instead of trying to score a political hit, she supports the Government, is straight with the public and supports us in what we are doing to deport Abu Qatada.
Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con)
The Home Secretary will recall that she has herself urged the repeal of the Human Rights Act 1998. In the light of these events, is it not now time to get on with this urgently? In that way, we will be able to protect not only the public from the likes of Abu Qatada but those alleged terrorists who deserve a fair trial. Let us give them a fair trial, legislate in this country and work out our own answers to these questions, rather than leaving it to the Strasbourg Court.
Mrs May
I am tempted to refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave on this issue in my last statement on human rights, because I am afraid that I am not going to depart from the answers I have given him in the past. I have made clear my position on the Human Rights Act. Work is being done on it, including by the commission looking at the possibility of a British Bill of Rights in line with our human rights requirements. That commission will report in due course. On the operation of the European Court, as he knows, we have already taken steps to ensure that the Court focuses on the complex points of law that it was originally set up to address, instead of becoming just a court of appeal in so many cases.
Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)
The whole House will share the Home Secretary’s disappointment that this matter has gone on for seven years and cost the taxpayer £1 million in legal aid, and that yet again the silks of the Home Office appear to have been outwitted by a small north London firm of solicitors. I know that she has worked hard with the Jordanians—we are grateful for that—but the Jordanian Government are the key. I understand that the king is due here on 21 November. Is that an opportunity to ask him to do what the Court has suggested, which is to strengthen and change the Jordanian criminal code? That appears to be the only obstacle to ensuring that Abu Qatada goes back. The assurances have been accepted, but I understand that the structure of the criminal code is the main problem.
Mrs May
The right hon. Gentleman is right. Justice Mitting made several references to the criminal code and to the operation of the court of cassation. He is also right that the king will be in the UK shortly. We will work with the Jordanian Government across all parts of our representations in Jordan to ensure that we get the outcome that we all want, which is the deportation of Abu Qatada. I assure the right hon. Gentleman that we will consider every avenue to do that.
Sir Edward Garnier (Harborough) (Con)
I can see that my right hon. Friend is not pleased with the commission’s decision, but she stopped just short of personally abusing the judge, for which I am grateful to her. I assume that tomorrow morning lawyers instructed by her Department will be making an application for an expedited appeal hearing, and that the points she made in her statement are precisely those that will be made in the application.
Mrs May
Yes. I thank my hon. and learned Friend. He is right. The judge made his judgment, and we disagreed with it. Of course, we are disappointed; we think it is wrong, and that is why we will appeal. We believe that there is a point of law on which it can be appealed, and will look to expedite it.
Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab)
A very dangerous man is likely to be walking the streets of this country by tomorrow morning, and the public will simply not understand what has gone wrong. Indeed, I myself find it hard to believe that, despite having got the constitution of Jordan changed and the law changed, we are still unable to convince our own courts that those changes to the constitution and the law and the other assurances are sufficient to guarantee a fair trial. What more can be done to ensure that this man can be deported as a matter of urgency? Our legal system will find itself in a ludicrous position if this situation is allowed to go on for a moment longer.
Mrs May
The right hon. Lady is right. We are all deeply frustrated by the decision, given the strong assurances that we have received that Abu Qatada would receive a fair trial across a wide range of aspects. We believe that a point of law has been misinterpreted, and that it is therefore possible for us to appeal. We are asking leave to appeal; that is the first thing we can do. We are also talking to the Jordanian Government about what other avenues might be open to us. Ultimately, however, the problem is that the bar has now been set extremely high by the European Court, and it was that decision, which moved the goalposts, that made it harder for decisions to be made in the British courts.
Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD)
What steps has the Home Secretary taken recently to investigate whether Abu Qatada could be charged in this country?
Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)
The failure to secure the deportation of Abu Qatada is a massive disappointment, but the public’s mind will now turn to the public safety issues involved. Will the Home Secretary tell the House what specific measures will no longer be available to her when Abu Qatada steps out tomorrow morning, now that we have done away with the control order regime?
Mrs May
The hon. Gentleman’s question is misguided. We have submitted our case this afternoon, and Home Office lawyers will be arguing in court tomorrow about the bail conditions. It has always been possible to have stricter conditions under bail than under control orders. The question is therefore what bail conditions will be set, and we will argue for the strictest possible ones.
Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con)
Of course, Mr Justice Mitting does have form in this area, not only with Abu Qatada but with Abu Hamza. Abu Qatada will be laughing in his prison cell right now, and in his luxury flat—no doubt paid for by the taxpayer—tomorrow. What further discussions can the Home Secretary have with the Jordanian authorities to ensure, in the light of the European Court of Human Rights’ second part judgment on evidence obtained by torture, that the Jordanian Government can satisfy not only SIAC but the ECHR and the British Government?
Mrs May
We are pursuing all avenues of discussion with the Jordanian Government to see what can be done to address the important point that the judgment has raised. My hon. Friend referred to Justice Mitting. I would point out that, although I obviously disagree with the judgment today, Justice Mitting has given a number of judgments favourable to the Government in deportation cases, so I suggest that my hon. Friend take a more rounded view of the judge’s decisions.
Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab)
The Home Secretary has highlighted the contradictions in the SIAC judgment, and she is right to seek an appeal. Members on both sides of the House are horrified at the prospect of this man walking freely around the streets of London, or indeed anywhere else in the country. Does she propose to provide further information to the Court of Appeal—perhaps, for example, in the form of a request for a personal appearance by the Jordanian ambassador—to make it absolutely clear that the assurances that she gave to SIAC can be relied on?
Mrs May
Obviously, we will look at every avenue that it would be appropriate to follow in order to uphold our case and to get what we all want, which is the deportation of Abu Qatada. If we look at the judgment, however, we can see that SIAC has been very clear about the vast majority of assurances in relation to the fair trial that Abu Qatada would receive, to his personal treatment, to his ability to have access to defence lawyers and so on. The problem lay with the one point about the admissibility of evidence and, even in that regard, the judgment refers to the fact that there would be the possibility of cross-examination in relation to such evidence. Justice Mitting still came to this decision, however. We will appeal it, and we will fight our case as strongly as we can.
Mr Julian Brazier (Canterbury) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that the concept of the rule of law, which this country played such a large role in developing, essentially involves a balance between the legislative, executive and judicial branches of the constitution, and that the combination of a European institution, which cannot be reformed by anybody, and a philosophy that is increasingly prevalent among our own courts, which imports ideas from outside British common law and outside statute, is undermining the confidence of the public in the rule of law in this country?
Mrs May
My hon. Friend has raised issues about which he has spoken on many occasions in the past, as have a number of my right hon. and hon. Friends. What the public want is to see Abu Qatada deported. We want to see Abu Qatada deported, and we are going to do everything we can within the rule of law to achieve that. It is still open to us to ask leave to appeal. We are doing that, and we will fight for that as hard as we can. We are doing everything in our power, working with the Jordanian Government, to ensure that we can bring about what the public want, which is the deportation of Abu Qatada.
Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab)
My right hon. Friend the Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper) highlighted some of the confusion that has led to Abu Qatada still remaining in the UK. However, one issue the Home Secretary raised was the weight given in the ruling to case law relating to Jordan. She also talked about agreements not being reached with other Governments. Can she say whether there is any precedent in any of those other cases where case law was not in place, but where deportations have happened?
Michael Ellis (Northampton North) (Con)
Bearing two things in mind—that the British Government have clearly taken unprecedented steps and bent over backwards to try to facilitate the court’s wishes in these matters; and that the judge indicated in his ruling that he did not feel that there would be an unfair trial in Jordan—are there not some inherent and unhealthy contradictions in this judgment, which clearly merit the strong and robust appeal that my right hon. Friend has indicated she will pursue in the higher courts?
Mrs May
I thank my hon. Friend for that contribution. With his legal background, I am sure he will have cast his eye over the judgment to reach exactly the point he made. We feel that there is an opportunity to appeal and that there are points of law on which we can appeal. That is why we will be seeking leave to appeal to the Court of Appeal with the strongest possible case we can put forward.
Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)
Clearly, the use of torture is illegal in Britain and the use of evidence obtained under torture is similarly illegal in this country. Does the Home Secretary not think that we would all be much better served if other countries, including Jordan, signed up to the UN convention against torture, which would make it illegal for them to use torture or any evidence obtained under it from any other jurisdiction? Until that day comes about, it is going to be difficult to deport people from European jurisdictions to those that have not signed up to the UN convention.
Mrs May
The whole point is that Jordan has made torture illegal. It has been illegal since 2006, and the country specifically changed its constitution last year to make it clear not only that torture was forbidden, but that
“any statement extracted from a person under duress…or the threat thereof shall neither be taken into consideration or relied on.”
That is from article 8.2 of the Jordanian constitution. Part of the issue in Justice Mitting’s judgment today is that that constitutional change took place last year; there is no case law that shows the operation of that constitutional change.
David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Con)
I have been looking at Twitter as we have been speaking, and it is obviously a highly contentious issue, as all Members agree. We want to see the back of this man, but it seems impossible to get rid of him. Without wanting to pre-empt the tabloid press tomorrow, are there any contingencies in place to try Qatada here? Is that possible in any way, shape or form, or could it be done in Europe, leaving Europe to pick up the bill for it, as this is costing a fortune? This is a question not from a legal person, but from a lay person who is also a Member of Parliament.
Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)
Can the Home Secretary clarify that stringent bail conditions will be applied similar to those previously used when Abu Qatada was on bail, which meant that he was unable to commit further offences?
Mrs May
We are certainly arguing for the strictest possible bail conditions. Justice Mitting has already set the curfew at 16 hours, which is less time than when Abu Qatada was previously on bail. We will find out tomorrow morning what the full conditions are, but we will certainly be arguing for the strictest possible conditions.
Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con)
I apologise for asking exactly the same question I asked earlier this year, but it is on behalf of many of my constituents who will be totally perplexed by this situation. What would the sanctions be if we prioritised national security and just put Abu Qatada on a plane back to Jordan?
Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)
Can the Home Secretary confirm that until the European Court of Human Rights interfered and stopped Abu Qatada’s deportation last January, British courts and British judges had always agreed with the Government that he should be deported?
Mrs May
My hon. Friend is right: Abu Qatada had taken his appeal through all levels of the courts here in the UK, and at every level it had been found that he could be deported. It was the appeal to the European Court that prevented his deportation, and although today’s decision is one of a British court, it has been taken against the background of a very high barrier to deportation that has now been set by the European Court.
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
I have listened to an hour of excuses for why we cannot deport this man. The Home Secretary wants to deport him; the shadow Home Secretary wants to deport him; the Supreme Court says he can be deported; the British people say he should be deported: just deport him, and worry about the consequences afterwards. Does the Home Secretary agree?
Mrs May
I think we have had this conversation before, or a very similar one, and I repeat what I have always said: it is my intention to do everything in the Government’s power to deport Abu Qatada within the rule of law. It is important that Ministers standing at this Dispatch Box commit themselves to operating within the rule of law.
Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
Do special circumstances apply in this case, or is a judgment of this sort sending a signal to any terrorist, on the run for crimes committed in any country that may not have a judicial system fully recognised as right up there with western standards, that they just have to make a beeline for the United Kingdom and they are safe, because nobody can deport them?
Mrs May
Judgments at the European Court have been making it harder to deport foreign nationals who are terrorist suspects or criminals, but I do not believe that this sends the message that my hon. Friend believes it does. There are some very particular aspects of this case. A trial in absentia took place regarding Abu Qatada, and evidence was allegedly obtained from mistreatment or torture, given by others in that trial in absentia. So there are particular aspects that would not read across to other cases, but that is precisely why I think it was right that we did not risk losing our deportation with assurances, which we could have, had we appealed to the European Court. There are other terror suspects whom we will be able to deport under our deportation with assurances that will not be affected by this judgment, but could have been affected by a judgment by the European Court to overturn those assurances.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
My constituents in Kettering will be horrified at today’s judgment on Abu Qatada, disgusted that this dreadful man could be at liberty tomorrow, and appalled at the rising cost of legal aid for him to defend his cause. Does my right hon. Friend know how much money has been spent on legal aid in his defence, and is there no limit to the amount of money taxpayers are being asked for to fund his case?
Mrs May
The amount of legal aid available has been a matter for the Legal Services Commission. I am not aware of the complete sum that it has allowed in relation to this. I understand my hon. Friend’s and the public’s concerns, which is why, in a more general sense, setting aside this case, we want to ensure that we can deport and extradite people more quickly than we can do today, so that we do not have people sitting in these sort of circumstances.
May I correct something I said earlier in response to another of my hon. Friends, Mr Deputy Speaker? I believe I said that at every stage the British courts previously had found in favour of deportation. I understand that under the previous Government, at one stage, the Court of Appeal found against them on deportation, but that then went to a higher court, which found in favour of deportation. There was one judgment against deportation.
Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)
The content of today’s statement will come as a huge disappointment to hon. Members across this Chamber and to the constituents we represent. I had reassured my constituents that this man would be deported. We know that the law has been changed in Jordan, and I told my constituents that it had outlawed evidence gained by torture and that the deportation was very likely to go ahead. Can the Home Secretary tell me what I should say to my constituents? What certainty can I give them that this man, who should not be walking our streets, is going to be deported?
Child Abuse Allegations (North Wales)
Baroness May of Maidenhead Excerpts(12 years, 1 month ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a statement on historic allegations of child abuse in the North Wales police force area.
In 1991, North Wales police conducted an investigation into allegations that, throughout the 1970s and 1980s, children in homes that were managed and supervised by Clwyd county council were sexually and physically abused. The result of the police investigation was eight prosecutions and seven convictions of former care workers.
Despite the investigation and convictions, it was widely believed that the abuse was in fact on a far greater scale, but a report produced by Clwyd council’s own inquiry was never published, because so much of its content was considered by lawyers to be defamatory.
In 1995, the then Secretary of State for Wales, my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood), appointed a QC to examine all the relevant documents and recommend whether there should be a public inquiry. The recommendation was that there should be not a public inquiry but an examination of the work of private care homes and the social services departments in Gwynedd and Clwyd councils. This work revealed not only shortcomings in the protection of vulnerable children, but that the shortcomings had persisted even after the police investigation and subsequent prosecutions.
In 1996, my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), the then new Secretary of State for Wales, invited Sir Ronald Waterhouse to lead an inquiry into the abuse of children in care in the Gwynedd and Clwyd council areas. The Waterhouse inquiry sat for 203 days and heard evidence from more than 650 people. Statements made to the inquiry named more than 80 people as child abusers, many of whom were care workers or teachers. In 2000, the inquiry’s report “Lost in Care” made 72 recommendations for changes to the way in which children in care were protected by councils, social services and the police. Following the report’s publications, 140 compensation claims were settled on behalf of the victims
The report found no evidence of a paedophile ring beyond the care system, which was the basis of the rumours that followed the original police investigation and, indeed, one of the allegations made in the past week. Last Friday, a victim of sexual abuse at one of the homes named in the report—Mr Steve Messham—alleged that the inquiry did not look at abuse outside care homes, and he renewed allegations against the police and several individuals. The Government are treating those allegations with the utmost seriousness. Child abuse is a hateful, abhorrent and disgusting crime, and we must not allow these allegations to go unanswered. I therefore urge anybody who has information relating to the allegations to go to the police.
I can tell the House that Mark Polin, the chief constable of North Wales police, has invited Keith Bristow, the director general of the National Crime Agency, to assess the allegations recently received, review the historic police investigations and investigate any fresh allegations reported to the police into the alleged historic abuse in north Wales care homes. He will lead a team of officers from the Serious and Organised Crime Agency and other investigative assets as necessary, and the Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre will act as the single point of contact for fresh referrals relating to historic abuse in north Wales care homes. He will produce an initial report reviewing the historic investigations and any fresh allegations by April 2013. I have made it clear to Mark Polin and Keith Bristow that the Home Office is ready to assist with the additional costs of that work.
In addition, as the Prime Minister said yesterday, the Government will ask a senior independent figure to lead an urgent investigation into whether the Waterhouse inquiry was properly constituted and did its job. Given the seriousness of the allegations, we will make sure that that work is completed urgently.
Given that there have also been serious allegations about other historic child sex offences, I should also inform the House of the work being conducted by Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary. This will establish a full picture of all forces that have received allegations in relation to Jimmy Savile, examine whether these allegations were investigated properly, and identify wider lessons from the response of the police forces involved. I have been assured by HMIC that its work will also take into account any lessons that emerge from these latest allegations.
Before I conclude, I would like to warn hon. Members that if they plan to use parliamentary privilege to name any suspects, they risk jeopardising any future trial and, therefore, the possibility of justice for the victims, which I believe the whole House wants to see.
I believe that the whole House will also be united in sending this message to victims of child abuse: “If you have suffered and you go to the police about what you have been through, those of us in positions of authority and responsibility will not shirk our duty to support you. We must do everything in our power to do everything we can to help you, and everything we can to get to the bottom of these terrible allegations.”
I commend this statement to the House.
Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) (Lab)
I thank the Home Secretary for her statement. She is right that these are deeply disturbing allegations. Child abuse and sexual abuse of children and young people are among the most despicable of crimes. When adults who should be trusted to care for children abuse their power and position of trust by committing violent crimes, it can haunt those young people for the rest of their lives. That is made worse if society and the institutions charged with protecting children, including in the criminal justice system, fail to step in to provide greater protection or hold the perpetrators to account. The Home Secretary is therefore right to act on the latest concerns.
There are three major issues, each of which needs to be addressed. First, where crimes have been committed or suspected, we need a proper criminal investigation, led by the police in the pursuit of justice. Secondly, we need to know whether there has been an institutional failure to deal with the issue before, be it turning a blind eye, covering things up or simply failing to get to the bottom of what happened. Thirdly, we need to know what further changes are needed to our current framework for safeguarding children and investigating abuse. However, we cannot look at the allegations around north Wales in isolation. The same three questions—about criminal allegations, potential institutional failure and the lessons for today—are just as significant when it comes to the abuse by Jimmy Savile, as well as more current problems, such as the events in Rochdale or the work that the Children’s Commissioner is doing on child sexual exploitation. I am concerned that the Home Secretary’s response will not be wide enough to cover all those issues. Let me take each in turn.
I welcome the points that the Home Secretary has made today about the new criminal investigation into the allegations in north Wales, and in particular the involvement of the Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre, which has considerable expertise. Clearly the investigation must go more widely than north Wales if that is where the evidence takes it. I hope that she can provide that assurance to the House. On the historic reviews, I welcome her decision to look again at the Waterhouse inquiry, which I assume will involve looking at whether child abuse that might have taken place outside the care system was sufficiently considered.
However, we have a whole series of inquiries under way into similar problems, in addition to important police and criminal investigations. As I understand it, there are three BBC inquiries into what happened with Jimmy Savile, a Department of Health inquiry—as well as several separate hospital inquiries—a Crown Prosecution Service inquiry, a new north Wales inquiry and an inquiry by Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary into other forces that may have received allegations about Jimmy Savile. The Home Secretary will know that we have already raised our concern that the Savile investigations should be brought under a single inquiry. We remain concerned that these multiple inquiries have no way to draw together the common themes, the problems or the lessons that need to be learned. Of course we need to get to the bottom of what is happening in each case, but at the moment the framework that the Government have set out risks being confused.
The reason this is important is that we have to have a proper way to learn the right lessons for the current framework for safeguarding children, because there are clearly current lessons to be learned. Obviously a series of child protection policies have been introduced since many of the events took place. Big changes include the Children’s Commissioners, strengthening the law repeatedly, new measures and policies on safeguarding in schools and social services, and the creation of CEOP. However, we all remain concerned that victims of sexual abuse, particularly children, are too often simply not believed or taken seriously enough—abuse that was ignored for too long against girls and young women in Rochdale very recently, as well as concerns that have been raised in Rotherham. We have also seen the forthcoming Children’s Commissioner’s report, which will raise concerns about wider child exploitation. We have raised concerns too about some of the policy changes that the Government have introduced, such as changes to vetting and barring arrangements and changes to the way in which CEOP will operate. Primary care trusts have also raised concerns about the way in which child safeguarding will be treated in the NHS as a result of the reforms.
There are wider concerns, and lessons for today that need to be learned alongside the detailed historic investigations that rightly must take place. I know that the Home Secretary is deeply concerned by these crimes, and that she takes them extremely seriously. I therefore urge her to look again at the framework for these inquiries and at the possibility of a single overarching inquiry or review that would draw all the evidence together and consider what needs to be done to protect children now.
It is extremely hard for the victims of child abuse and of sexual abuse against young people to speak out and to talk about crimes that are so intimate and so deeply disturbing, and they show great bravery when they do so. We need to show them that they will be listened to, that we will give them the support that they need and that everything possible will be done to protect children in the future as well.
Mrs May
I am grateful to the right hon. Lady for the approach that she has taken to these serious issues. It is right that we should work together across the House to find the best solution, not only to get to the bottom of anything that we have failed to uncover so far, but to support the victims—which, as she and I have said, is so important.
In looking at these issues, it is right that we should first look into the police investigations to see whether any avenues that should have been followed were not pursued, and whether any issues have been uncovered as a result of the allegations that are now coming forward that should be dealt with. We must also pursue any criminality that comes forward, so that the victims can see that justice is being done.
That is why I have put an emphasis on the police investigation, and on the NCA working with the North Wales police to look into the historic allegations and ensure that everything necessary was done. If there are any avenues to be pursued in any criminal investigations, I am absolutely clear that the police should take them wherever they go. It is important that the NCA’s director general should bring in various assets, including, crucially, the Serious Organised Crime Agency and CEOP. CEOP is renowned for dealing with these issues, and it is right that it should be the single point of contact for any fresh allegations that come forward.
If, at the end of the processes that we have set in train, it appears necessary to move forward to a wider investigation, of course we will look at that. At this stage, we need to get the police investigations into any criminality under way, and to ensure that the Waterhouse inquiry did as it was intended to do, and did it properly. As I have said, however, if there is a case to be made for a wider inquiry at some stage in the future, we will of course look at the issue.
I shall return to the point on which the right hon. Lady and I ended our statements today. She was right to say that other police investigations had taken place in which there were issues over whether the victims were believed. We need to be able to reassure victims that, when they come forward, they will be listened to and taken seriously. It is incumbent on all of us in the House, in the positions of authority and responsibility that we hold, to ensure that that is the case.
Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con)
The Prime Minister is to be congratulated on the urgency with which he has responded to this matter, and the Home Secretary is to be congratulated on the speed with which she has come to the House today. Many weeks ago, when the Savile affair first reared its ugly head, I said that it was just the tip of the iceberg. We should not be surprised that child abuse has now raised its head in the political spectrum as well.
As the shadow Home Secretary has said, we now have a multiplicity of inquiries, and the Home Secretary has just announced an inquiry about an inquiry. Rather than waking up to find a new institution involved in this mire every week, is it not now time to have an overarching and robust public inquiry into all the failings in child protection in various institutions—the BBC, the health service, the police, the Church and so on—during the latter part of the 20th century? All institutions involved with children and young people should be made to have a robust child protection policy that is fit for purpose in the 21st century. All perpetrators should be exposed and brought to book, and all victims should be given credence and closure at last.
Mrs May
I commend my hon. Friend, who has championed the interests of children and child protection throughout his time in this House. He has a worthy record of bringing these issues before the House and the public.
My hon. Friend talked about bringing perpetrators to book, but as I said in my response to the shadow Home Secretary, what matters at this stage is that we are able to let the police do the job of identifying the allegations brought forward, pursuing the investigations and bringing perpetrators to book where possible. He has rightly said that this is not just an issue that has hit the care homes in north Wales, as the allegations of child abuse and actions of child abuse go wider in respect of the number of institutions involved in various ways over the years. As I said to the shadow Home Secretary, let us see the criminal investigation routes pursued, and if there is a case to go wider, of course the Government will look at that.
Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab)
In February 2000, I was the Secretary of State for Wales and reported Sir Ronald Waterhouse’s report to this House of Commons. Does the Secretary of State agree that, although the report exposed monumental wickedness and came up with superb recommendations, including the creation of a Children’s Commissioner for Wales, and that however important it is to look at Sir Ronald’s inquiry, it is much more important to deal with the investigations into fresh allegations that are now before us? Secondly, will the Home Secretary assure the House that she is in close contact with Carwyn Jones, the First Minister of Wales, who is obviously also dealing with this issue, as social services are devolved?
Mrs May
I recognise that when the Waterhouse inquiry was set up and when it reported, it was generally welcomed in the House for the work it had done. Given the fresh allegations, however, I think it is important to ask somebody to look again at that work. Alongside it, what is of course important, as the right hon. Gentleman said, are the police investigations, looking into any fresh allegations that have been made and, as I say, looking at the historic allegations and investigations, too, to ensure that those were indeed conducted properly and went as widely as they needed to. As for the First Minister for Wales, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales has spoken to him. As the right hon. Gentleman will know, policing is not a devolved matter, but there will be further discussions with the First Minister on a number of these matters, including the review of the Waterhouse review.
Sir Edward Garnier (Harborough) (Con)
My right hon. Friend has just announced a number of inquiries, but I agree with the right hon. Members for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper)and for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) and with my hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton) in that there is a real imperative and priority for the police to get on with their job now, which is to investigate fresh allegations of criminality—and they must be left unhindered to do that, without being inhibited by other forms of inquiries into inquiries. I urge my right hon. Friend to allow the police to get on with that and, if necessary, to delay any inquiries into the inquiries so that the suspects can be prosecuted and, if necessary, found guilty, and the innocent can be relieved of the suspicion that is current in the media.
Mrs May
I thank my hon. and learned Friend for his comments. It is absolutely right that the police should be unhindered in their work of investigating any fresh allegations and, as I say, any historic allegations as well. If any charges are to be brought, the individuals need to be identified and criminal prosecutions pursued. The review into the Waterhouse inquiry will not, I think, get in the way of the police investigations, as it is a review into how that inquiry was conducted. It is right that the police are allowed and able to get on with the job. If people have committed horrendous crimes, we all want to see them brought to justice on the basis of the evidence and we want the criminality to be pursued.
Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)
I commend the Home Secretary for the speed with which she has acted on this issue. I remind her that when the Children’s commissioner gave evidence to the Home Affairs Select Committee in its inquiry into Rochdale, she said that child abuse was happening in every town and city in this country. At the end of the day, I think the right hon. Lady is going to have to have a public inquiry—an overarching inquiry that brings all the strands together. In the meantime, will she assure us that the National Crime Agency will have this co-ordinating function with all the other inquiries that are going on? Will she please involve the Director of Public Prosecutions at the earliest opportunity. In the end, the victims want to see people prosecuted.
Mrs May
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his comments. He has reminded us of the remarks made by the Children’s Commissioner when she came before the Home Affairs Committee. The director general of the NCA, Keith Bristow, working with SOCA, CEOP and any other assets he feels necessary to bring to bear at the invitation of the chief constable of North Wales, will primarily be looking into those allegations. If it is the case that other allegations surface in another context, which it would be appropriate to wind into the investigation, the director general of the NCA would, of course, be able to do that.
Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD)
These allegations are indeed very distressing. In the original Waterhouse inquiry, 28 people were named but their names were not publicly reported because the judge reasonably assumed that it would prejudice any future trial—a trial that never happened. Does the Home Secretary agree that whenever there is an inquiry into what happened historically, as opposed to the recent allegations, it must get to the bottom of why there was no follow-up police investigation after Waterhouse concluded?
Mrs May
My hon. Friend is right. One point of bringing extra resource in to support the North Wales police on this issue is to look at the historic allegations and to investigate whether everything was done that needed to be done in respect of following up criminal prosecutions as well as ensuring that all the evidence was taken.
Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)
I commend the Home Secretary for her statement today and the urgent action she has taken. I am very pleased that CEOP will be involved and that every extra resource will be there, if necessary. Some of these allegations, however, are not fresh; they were made during the proceedings of the Waterhouse inquiry. I believe that the right hon. Lady is right that a two-strand approach is vital and that the police should get on with it immediately. As to the inquiry itself, if the individual looking into it says, as others have said here today, that we need a further, overarching public inquiry, will the Home Secretary agree to it?
David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)
I welcome the fact that, following these serious allegations, the Home Secretary has acted very quickly indeed to investigate the specific problems in north Wales. Will she reaffirm that if anybody is found to have been involved in this, they can expect absolutely no mercy and that the full force of the law will be pursued in the courts?
Mr Tom Watson (West Bromwich East) (Lab)
The lesson of Hillsborough and hacking is that a narrowed down investigation is the basic building-block of a cover-up. To limit this inquiry to north Wales and Savile would, in my view, be a dereliction of the Home Secretary’s duty. It would guarantee that many sickening crimes will remain uninvestigated, and some of the most despicable paedophiles will remain protected by the establishment that has shielded them for 30 years. Will the right hon. Lady please guarantee that the SOCA inquiry has licence to follow any lead it finds in what will be, after all, a serious criminal investigation. There should be no historic sexual abuse of children which is off limits to this investigation, and the police should be supported by a dedicated team of child protection specialists, many of whom have been raising their concerns for years. Whether someone was raped and tortured as a child in Wales or in Whitehall, they are entitled to be heard.
The media may be transfixed by the spectre of a paedophile Cabinet Minister abusing children, but what actually matters are the thousands and thousands of children whose lives have been ground into nothing, who prefer to kill themselves than carry on, who have nowhere to turn, to whom nobody listens and whom nobody helps. Does the right hon. Lady sincerely want to start making amends, or can she live with being what she has just announced—the next stage of a cover-up?
Mrs May
I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman has chosen to take that tone. I know that he is keen to see the large-scale inquiry to which a number of Members have referred. I have explained why I think it important for the criminal investigation to run its course, and to be pursued without fear or favour. I assure him that what I, and the Government, want to do is ensure that we establish investigations, and that, if there are people who should be pursued for the purpose of prosecution, such a process then takes place. I have made that absolutely clear.
It is entirely true that there have been a number of instances, over the years and across the country, of different forms of child sexual abuse. We now see the online and on-street grooming of children, and a number of other variations of child abuse. What is so horrific is the extent to which that abuse has been taking place in our country and throughout our communities over the years.
There are various ways in which the police are investigating these matters and inquiries are taking place. In relation to the issue in north Wales, it is important for the police to be able to pursue any criminal investigations without fear or favour, taking those investigations, absolutely clearly, where the evidence leads them. That is what they should be doing, that is what they will be doing, and that is I believe the best way to bring justice to the victims.
Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)
Today’s statement concerned some of the most shocking incidents that I can remember occurring during my political life in Wales. Like others, I greatly commend the Prime Minister for the speed with which he established the urgent investigation.
It may well be true that we must have the wide-ranging inquiry to which several Members have referred. However, we do not want to lose sight of the fact that there is an issue in north Wales that must be dealt with comprehensively. We must ensure that those responsible are brought to book quickly, and that we do not lose this particular shocking issue in a wider investigation that will take a long, long time.
Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab)
Does the Home Secretary agree that one of the fundamental flaws in the Waterhouse inquiry lay in its terms of reference? That is why we need a far more widespread inquiry.
Mr Rob Wilson (Reading East) (Con)
I, too, welcome my right hon. Friend’s swift action, in relation to both the independently led review of the Waterhouse inquiry and the involvement of the National Crime Agency, which I think is very important. Does she agree that all the evidence collected by “Newsnight”, by the Bureau of Investigative Journalism and by others should be placed in the hands of the police immediately? That is absolutely essential if justice is to be delivered not only to the victims, but to those who have been unfairly libelled on the internet in recent days.
Simon Danczuk (Rochdale) (Lab)
There has clearly been institutional blindness to abuse, whether it has taken place in Rochdale council, at the BBC or even within political parties. We now need a Government framework that encourages all victims to come forward, whatever cases are involved. Does the Home Secretary not agree with that?
Mrs May
I am happy to repeat what I said in my statement, and also a minute or so ago. I think that anyone who has been a victim and who feels that there are allegations to be made should make those allegations, but I also think that such people should go to the police, who should be investigating the allegations and ensuring that we can, where possible, bring the perpetrators to justice.
Mr Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con)
Tomorrow, after a year-long inquiry, the Education Committee will produce its report on child protection in England. There has understandably been a great deal of focus on the perpetrators in recent weeks, but we focused unapologetically on the victims. May I ask the Home Secretary to look at the report carefully? What is most important—even more important than bringing people to justice—is ensuring that no child suffers as children suffered in past years when, overall, the system let them down.
Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)
I thank the Home Secretary for coming to the House so promptly, but the problem with what she has said today is that the victims have heard what she has said in the past. They gave evidence to the Waterhouse inquiry, but that evidence was not listened to and did not become public, and no prosecutions—or not enough prosecutions—followed. What can the Home Secretary do to assuage the feelings of those victims, and to make them understand that this inquiry will actually lead to the taking of some responsibility? Is it not about time that we had openness, after all these years, about the evidence that was given to the Waterhouse inquiry?
Mrs May
I would say to anyone who has been a victim and is concerned about what has happened in the past that the whole point of setting up a police investigation under the director general of the National Crime Agency is to enable a body of police to look into the investigations and inquiries that took place previously, and to establish whether they were properly conducted or whether avenues of inquiry or allegations that should have been pursued were not pursued, in order to identify instances in which it will be possible to bring perpetrators to justice. This is not just an inquiry into what has happened; it is a police investigation, and it will focus on precisely that issue.
John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD)
On 26 October, the Government voted down proposals to make cover-ups harder and to protect children in care. What measures do they propose to ensure, in particular, that people have a right to complain to someone independent?
Mrs May
The hon. Gentleman has led me on to territory that is not fully within my remit, but I can say that one of the messages we hope will be conveyed by the action we are taking today is that people who make serious allegations will be listened to and taken seriously, because that issue has arisen in many areas. We want to ensure that people do not feel that they cannot come forward because they will not be taken seriously or because action will be taken against them, and that when child abuse has taken place, it is uncovered and dealt with properly.
Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)
Is the Home Secretary asking the security services to review and, where appropriate, share any intelligence that they have relating to cases and places of abuse and to the persons, networks and patterns involved, not just in north Wales but—as other Members have suggested—more widely, including, but not only, in respect of Kincora?
Sir Paul Beresford (Mole Valley) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that many fresh allegations could come from individuals who have hidden the appalling attacks made on them so many years ago, and who will be reluctant to come forward because that would disturb the life that they have built since? Do such people not need the reassurance and protection that can be provided by CEOP, the police and others if they do come forward?
Mrs May
That is an important point. For many victims who wish to come forward, it will not be an easy process but a very painful process, which, as my hon. Friend says, could disrupt the lives that they have been able to build subsequently. However, I assure him that CEOP is well able to deal, and well used to dealing, with people who are in difficult circumstances and who may find it difficult to come forward. That is why I think it so important for CEOP’s ability and specialism to be brought to bear on the investigation.
Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Lab)
Given what we now know about the powers of investigation and terms of reference used in the north Wales inquiry, will the Home Secretary have regard to other similar inquiries? I am thinking in particular of the Staffordshire “pindown” inquiry undertaken by Allan Levy. Can the Home Secretary assure the House that if similar questions arise in relation to any other inquiry, they will be encompassed within any further investigations?
Karen Lumley (Redditch) (Con)
I was a Clwyd county councillor representing Wrexham at the time of the north Wales children homes inquiry, and I was on the panel that looked at the report that was never published. Let me tell the House that its contents were horrendous. Can the Secretary of State assure me and the House that no stone will be left unturned to make sure that the people who came forward can have closure and that those responsible for these dreadful crimes can be punished?
Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)
Will the Home Secretary look into whether there was a systemic problem in north Wales whereby those accused of child abuse without conclusive evidence to prove it were redeployed within the wider world of social services? Although they no longer had direct access to children, they were still part of that system. If that is the case, we will need a much wider inquiry.
Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)
One of the major concerns in all this is the number of credible claims of child abuse that were made to the police about Savile and others that never resulted in charges being brought. Will my right hon. Friend give an undertaking that the work done by HMIC will lead to a report that the House will then have a chance to debate?
Mrs May
My hon. Friend raises an interesting point. I am sure the House will want to return to this issue either in relation to the HMIC report or anything further that comes out of the investigations being set up today. One issue HMIC will be looking at in a number of forces is whether the police respond properly to these sorts of allegations. As a number of Members have said, one of the more general concerns is that victims often find it difficult to be heard, or do not come forward because they do not think they will be listened to.
Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab)
As a former prosecutor of historical sexual abuse cases in care homes and institutions, as well as within the family, I informed the House in a debate some months ago that sexual abuse of our young people is very common and much more prevalent than we appreciate. We need not only an inquiry into any abuse that has been taking place in care homes or other institutions but to take a proper look at what we should do to protect our young children in the future and what rules we should put in place to make it easier for young victims to come forward and tell us what has happened to them. I repeat that it is not only care homes that have sexual abuse problems; there are also sexual abuse problems in the home and the family.
Mrs May
I acknowledge the hon. Lady’s experience in this area, and she raises an important point about the extent of such abuse and the scenarios in which it takes place. She says we should look at the broad issue of child protection. She will have heard my hon. Friend the Member for Beverley and Holderness (Mr Stuart) informing the House that the Education Committee will publish its report on child protection tomorrow, and I am sure the whole House will want to look at that issue very seriously.
Jackie Doyle-Price (Thurrock) (Con)
As my right hon. Friend may be aware, rape crisis centres are reporting a considerable increase in activity as victims of historical abuse come forward. While it is welcome that people are responding to how seriously we are all taking these allegations, we do not want to be unable to right the wrong they have suffered by not being in a position to give them adequate support. Will she make sure that the infrastructure we have in place to support rape and abuse victims is satisfactory and supports them to get closure?
Mrs May
I recognise the problem my hon. Friend raises, and only last week I heard directly from representatives of rape crisis centres about the increase in the number of historical victims coming forward. The Government have been able to provide some extra funding for rape crisis centres to put them on a more stable footing and to open some new centres, but I recognise that there are issues in respect of their ability to handle the volume of people coming forward and also the appropriate way to deal with them, as many of the recent therapies have not always satisfied the needs of some of those victims.
Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)
One of the boys involved in this case was persuaded to give evidence only to find that, after going through the horror of churning up the memories of the dreadful things he had suffered, there was no justice at the end of it. He later took his life. I know that the hard-bitten reporters who persuaded him to give evidence on the promise that there would be justice have lived with that sense of injustice ever since. I ask the right hon. Lady to look not only at the fresh evidence but at the evidence that was available at the time and that was almost certainly suppressed by powerful people. Will she look at the evidence produced by Paddy French and the Rebecca Television website on an edition of “Wales this Week” that was never broadcast?
Mrs May
The police investigation will look at the evidence that was available at the time in these historical abuse allegations, and at whether the evidence was properly investigated and whether avenues of inquiry were not pursued that should have been followed up and that could have led to prosecutions. I can therefore say to the hon. Gentleman that the police will, indeed, be looking at that historical evidence. That is part of the job they will be doing.
Nicola Blackwood (Oxford West and Abingdon) (Con)
I, too, welcome the Home Secretary’s decision today. Does she agree that if there is a single message that must go out from all these inquiries and investigations it is that all victims of child abuse or sexual exploitation who come forward will be believed? Even if there is a successful police investigation and even if the Crown Prosecution Service decides the victim is a credible witness, too often they feel that they are treated like the criminal in court. Will the Home Secretary work with the Director of Public Prosecutions to make sure all special measures are implemented so that that does not happen in any prosecutions that come out of this inquiry?
Mrs May
I am very happy to raise that issue with the Law Officers in relation to what happens in court. We have made considerable progress in dealing with victims of these crimes in court, but I recognise that some still find it very difficult to give evidence, and without that evidence the prosecution is often not possible.
Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab)
I also welcome the statement and the speed with which the Home Secretary has made it. In recent days she and her officials will have rightly been in close discussion with North Wales police about the work to be done by Keith Bristow, and it is very welcome that the Home Office is offering financial support. When serious issues such as these have to be dealt with in future, what role will police and crime commissioners have in discussions between the Home Office and local police forces? What part will they play in making decisions about future action?
Mrs May
The police and crime commissioner will replace the police authority. There will be certain circumstances in which it is right, as it would have been for the police authority, for the commissioner to be part of initiating a particular piece of work. There will be other circumstances in which it is entirely right for the chief constable to do that.
Stuart Andrew (Pudsey) (Con)
I welcome the statement. As a Leeds MP, it has been sad to see how the Jimmy Savile allegations have rocked people’s trust. As a councillor in Wrexham at the time of the inquiry, I remember how it sent shockwaves throughout the community. Even after the inquiry, there was considerable angst among people in the area about the appalling things that had happened. My right hon. Friend has rightly encouraged anyone with accusations to come forward, but there were rumours at the time of people who were too frightened and anxious to do that because of the exposure it may have given to their family and the complete lack of trust they had in the authorities who were supposed to be looking after them in the first place. Can she assure me that those who do come forward will be listened to without fear of recrimination and that everything will be done to support them through a very difficult process?
Mrs May
Yes, I can give my hon. Friend that reassurance. This is why it is particularly important that the single point of contact for people will be CEOP, which has the experience of and expertise in working with victims of these appalling crimes. CEOP has the ability to work with those who find it difficult to come forward, and it will enable them to do so in a way that allows their story to be heard and listened to.
Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab)
As a former social worker who worked in child protection in Wales, I welcome the statement, but if this is to be a successful examination, we have to look at why this was able to happen and what the lessons are for today—the lessons will go wider than just the Home Office. May we have an assurance that there will be an examination across Departments as to why we continue to place vulnerable children away from their home areas, and away from their families, their friends and the support networks they trust, where they can have the assurance that if they go back to those networks such revelations will not be buried and hidden? We are failing generations of children by still placing them far away from their families because of cost and because we no longer have local authority children’s homes in which places can be found for vulnerable children.
Mrs May
The hon. Lady raises a wide issue about the way in which we treat children and young people who are in care and are the responsibility of the state. Sadly, this country has an appalling and shameful record on the way in which we have dealt with young people in care, across a range of issues. Obviously, the points that she has made will be noted by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education, under whose remit this primarily comes.
Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)
Will the Home Secretary tell us more about the terms of reference for the appointee who is looking into whether the Waterhouse inquiry did its job? Surely these must be as wide as possible, given this dreadful case.
Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)
I am grateful to the Home Secretary for coming to the House to make the statement and to my right hon. Friend the shadow Home Secretary for calling for a single overarching inquiry, as I believe there will be a great deal of support for that in north Wales, as well as in other places.
Most of us cannot even begin to imagine the pain that many victims of this dreadful abuse will be going through today. They will be watching and reliving some of their experiences, which, in many cases, may have been buried for decades. The hon. Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew), a former Wrexham councillor, raised this point eloquently. My concern is that many people would like to go to the police to say what happened to them but they fear that the perpetrators are much more powerful than they are. They want to know that we will be on their side. If any Member of the House of Lords were found to be guilty and to be a perpetrator, would the Government support stripping them of their peerage and taking them out of the House of Lords for life?
Mrs May
Obviously, what would happen to any individual who was found to be a perpetrator following any potential criminal prosecution is a matter that would need to be determined at the time. I think that the whole House shares a view on the valid point that the hon. Lady makes about those who fear that they will not be heard; we in this House have responsibility, authority and power, and we should make sure that the message that goes out from us clearly today is that victims will be heard. If someone has been a victim and has allegations to make, I ask them please to bring them forward and take them to the police. The purpose of the investigation is to ensure that we follow all avenues of inquiry, and that victims can see that their voice is heard, that they are listened to and that, where possible, perpetrators are brought to justice.
Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab)
The Secretary of State said that she has not had direct contact with the First Minister of Wales, Carwyn Jones. May I suggest she does make contact with him and with the Children’s Commissioner for Wales to ensure that there is full co-operation and the free flow of information across all UK borders—those of England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and the Channel Islands—in a Welsh inquiry or in an overarching UK inquiry?
Mrs May
As I understand it, a number of conversations are being held with the First Minister of Wales—as I indicated earlier, the Secretary of State for Wales has already been in touch with him. I think there will be discussions about the nature of the review of the Waterhouse inquiry as part of that. Of course, as instances emerge—as allegations are made and victims come forward—it will be necessary to ensure that there is an exchange of information in the investigations. One benefit of being able to bring the director general of the National Crime Agency, along with the assets of SOCA and CEOP, and other force assets, as necessary, into this investigation is to make sure that all the information sharing that is necessary is done.
Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)
Keith Bristow is a very highly regarded senior police officer but, as he told the Home Affairs Committee the other week, he is already up to his neck in another serious, high-profile police investigation and he is also trying to establish the National Crime Agency. Is the Home Secretary absolutely confident that he will be able to give this matter the full attention that it obviously demands?
Mrs May
Yes, indeed I am. This investigation provides a good example of the benefits of having a central authority—a central body—that can draw resource from a number of areas, particularly the specialist resource from CEOP and SOCA, and bring that to bear. Before the invitation came from the chief constable of North Wales police we of course discussed with Keith Bristow his ability, and that of the various assets under him, to undertake this, and he is clear that he is able to do so.
Ann Coffey (Stockport) (Lab)
I, too, thank the Home Secretary for her statement. There is a wide difference between police forces in not only how they respond to allegations of child sexual exploitation, but how well they currently assess risks to children in their area. What has happened to these children in the past is terrible and we must do all we can to ensure that we safeguard children from sexual abuse. Does she agree that Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary should make it a priority to inspect police forces to see how well they safeguard children in their area?
Mrs May
One issue that HMIC will be examining in its work on Savile and on the lessons learned from this north Wales investigation and, if necessary, others, is how the police deal with these matters. One of HMIC’s tasks will be to ensure that forces are taking those lessons seriously and embedding them in what they do. Of course, once the college of policing is up and running, it will also be a body with responsibility for developing standards and good practice in a number of areas, and I would expect this to be one of those areas.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I, too, thank the right hon. Lady for today’s statement and for the speed with which the Government have brought it to the House. As is clear from the Jimmy Savile abuse and the north Wales care home abuse, paedophile groups were prevalent in many parts of the United Kingdom in the 1970s and 1980s. Organisations that give help to abused children are almost being overwhelmed by the phone calls they are receiving—they are reporting a 100% increase in calls for help from young children. What assistance can she give organisations tasked with helping these vulnerable children?
Mrs May
The hon. Gentleman makes a valid point about the number of people now coming forward. As more revelations of a historical nature are made, I hope that people will feel better able to come forward to indicate their concerns and the problems they have been dealing with in their lives. As he says, a number of organisations are working with and helping those children. The issue of child protection is one that this House and the Government have taken and will continue to take seriously in terms of ensuring not only that there is child protection in the first place, but that when there are victims they can come forward and are given the support they need.
Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)
I served as a member of the inquiry team that looked into and reported on abuse of children in residential care in Edinburgh and it was some of the most harrowing work I have ever done. From that experience, I am very aware of how difficult it is for victims to come forward. I appreciate the importance of CEOP, as well as what the Home Secretary is saying about the police, but many victims will fear that they will not be believed or will worry that they will be let down again. What resources will she put in place for social services departments, the voluntary sector and counselling organisations to enable people to come forward, tell their stories and be supported throughout, whatever action is taken?
Mrs May
It is not for me to put resources into social services departments, as that is obviously another area of responsibility, but we will be considering the issue across Government. I hope that the message that has gone out from this House today to reassure victims that they will be listened to will be heard and that people will have the confidence to come forward. The hon. Lady’s point about wider support for victims has been raised by a number of other Members and I will ensure that it is considered by the responsible Departments.
Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)
The Education Committee heard worrying evidence that there is still a big problem with older children not being listened to or believed because of what is regarded as difficult behaviour. That is consistent with what happened in Rochdale and with what a number of other Members have said. Notwithstanding that, does the Home Secretary agree that it is very important for child protection to have greater co-operation between the police and other agencies so that children are put at the centre of all child protection work?
Mrs May
The hon. Gentleman makes an important point about co-operation at a more local level in responding to cases involving individual children. All the evidence suggests that the best protection and results happen when agencies work together and when not just one single agency considers the protective needs of a child. He makes an interesting point that we will take away and consider.
JHA Council
Baroness May of Maidenhead Excerpts(12 years, 1 month ago)
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The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
The Justice and Home Affairs (JHA) Council was held on 25 and 26 October in Luxembourg. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling MP) and I attended on behalf of the United Kingdom. Frank Mulholland QC also attended the justice day on behalf of the Administration in Scotland. The following items were discussed.
On an EU civil protection mechanism there was broad support for the presidency’s compromise proposal on risk management, which removed the obligation on member states to share risk management plans with the Commission and replaced it with an obligation to apply a risk-based approach to disaster management. There was also some progress on the proposed arrangements for a voluntary pool of pre-committed member states’ assets that would be available for EU operations. However, member states were divided on financial incentives to support the commitment of member states’ assets to the pool, where the UK argued that the Commission’s proposed funding levels for maintenance costs were too high and suggested that EU funding would be better used paying for the one-off costs of adapting resources for use in EU operations, or to co-fund training to aid interoperability. The UK also emphasised that civil protection should remain the primary responsibility of member states and stressed that the nature of the asset pool must be truly voluntary; member states should not have to provide justification when deciding whether to commit assets.
The UK, with some support, also resisted the Commission’s proposal to address capacity gaps through EU funding for buffer capacities. The UK said that there was a danger that this may lead to an overall reduction in capabilities. With no consensus the presidency called for further working group level discussions.
On the common European asylum system (CEAS), the presidency said that the reception conditions directive was due to be approved under the Council’s legislative items; only technical questions remained on the Dublin (III) regulation; negotiations with the European Parliament continued on asylum procedures, and COREPER had agreed the EURODAC package. The UK has opted in to the Dublin (III) regulation and the new EURODAC proposal. The UK has not opted in to the three other directives on reception conditions, asylum procedures and qualifications.
On Syria, the Commission warned that 350,000 people had already left Syria, with around 16,000 asylum applications being lodged in the EU. The EEAS also referred to the United Nations forecast that the number of Syrian refugees could double. Member states supported the establishment of an RPP, arguing for swift progress with a priority to support rapid capacity building in the region.
The United Kingdom noted that asylum claims had increased, albeit from a low base, and it was right that the priority would be to work with UNHCR. The UK had donated £39.5 million of humanitarian aid to Syria and could support the creation of an RPP, with the aim of ensuring protection close to the country of origin, on the condition that resettlement would be a measure of last resort and only after local integration or return is no longer an option. Swiftly establishing a broader dialogue with Turkey was another essential component of supporting the region. The presidency called upon the Commission to continue preparatory work of an RRP.
The Council adopted the Council conclusions on the protection of soft targets from terrorist activities. The UK has supported the presidency’s initiative, particularly in relation to the sharing of experience and best practice in protecting soft targets.
The presidency presented its progress report on the implementation of the 2011 Council conclusions on enhancing the link between the internal and external aspects of counter-terrorism. The European External Action Service underlined the importance of a coherent approach given, it argued, that the most significant threats to member states all have links outside the EU. The counter terrorism co-ordinator acknowledged the significant progress made but called for the inclusion of counter-terrorism in all funding instruments, enhanced engagement in CT projects in third countries by the EU agencies, and the involvement of DG Justice on the judicial aspects.
The Commission gave a presentation by the Commission on the illicit trafficking of firearms, undertaking to produce a communication early next year.
Over lunch there was a discussion on intra-EU relocation of beneficiaries of international protection, resulting in general support for a voluntary mechanism. The UK emphasised the importance of practical co-operation as the expression of “solidarity” rather than relocation, keeping any minimal relocation voluntary, and the need to ensure any proposal for action in this area did not go ahead until it could be demonstrated that the lessons of the previous project (in Malta) had been learnt.
The mixed committee with Norway, Iceland, Liechtenstein and Switzerland (non-EU Schengen states) started with an update on the implementation of the second generation Schengen information system (SIS II). Comprehensive testing phase had been successfully completed. The UK continues its support for the continuation of the current SIS II project.
On Bulgarian and Romanian accession to the Schengen acquis, the presidency and Commission expressed regret that the Council was still not in a position to agree given both countries had fulfilled the technical criteria to join. The UK accepts that Romania and Bulgaria have met the technical criteria to join the Schengen area.
On the implementation of Greece’s national action plan on asylum reform and migration management, Greece, the Commission, Frontex and the European Asylum Support Office provided an update on progress. The UK thanked the Greek authorities, the Commission and other agencies for their work, but noted that urgent needs remained and a priority should be for the Greek Government to make use of available EU funding. The UK had deployed a national expert to Athens to support the authorities on accessing funds and had offered support in translating materials. The UK looked forward to seeing a sustainable plan in place, with clear benchmarks, and would consider further assistance to Greece on the basis of a refreshed action plan. Others agreed, with a particular emphasis on clear benchmarks. The presidency agreed to return to this at the December Justice and Home Affairs Council when the action plan will be revised.
There were updates on the EU action plan on migratory pressures (the road map) from the Commission, Eurosur and Frontex. The key tools and risks were discussed. The UK welcomed the presidency’s report noting that the most important objective was to take real and concrete measures to tackle illegal immigration including the abuse of free movement. Momentum had been seen in several areas, including on returns, trafficking and co-operation with Turkey, and the UK highlighted the Commission’s recent work on the sham marriage handbook as a positive example of practical action. The UK highlighted a recent case in which an individual was imprisoned for four years for his role in an organised criminal conspiracy to conduct sham marriages between EU nationals and third country nationals. The UK noted the links between the priority areas on the road map, including the effects of visa liberalisation from the western Balkans, where the UK had detected a significant number of Albanians trying to cross the UK border illegally with fraudulently obtained identification documents. The UK was one of the co-drivers of action on abuse of free movement by third country nationals, as set out in the road map, and we continue to work with other member states, the Commission and EU partners to seek further practical progress in this area.
The presidency introduced the Commission’s third annual report on post-visa liberalisation monitoring of the western Balkans published in August. The Commission accepted that certain member states had seen an increase in unfounded asylum applications from these countries, but said if the recommendations in the report were applied correctly it would ensure effective implementation of the visa agreements. There was agreement that the revised 539 regulation (listing the countries whose nationals must be in possession of a visa when crossing the Schengen external borders) which included the long called for “visa safeguard clause” (temporary suspension of visa waiver) must be swiftly adopted. Although the UK does not participate in this visa liberalisation, it supports the measures being introduced to combat abuse of such agreements. The presidency agreed to closely monitor the situation.
The justice day began with the presidency seeking views on the scope of the powers of extended confiscation in the draft directive creating minimum standards on the freezing and confiscation of proceeds of crime. The presidency put forward four options for narrowing the scope of the extended confiscation regime, all of which attracted some support from different delegations. However, the presidency concluded that the way forward was to limit the requirements by reference to “economic benefit” and “serious crimes”. The UK has not opted in to the proposed directive but is engaging in the negotiations with a view to considering opting in at the post-adoption stage.
The presidency then sought member states’ views on ne bis in idem (namely that a person should not be pursued a second time for something on which he has already been legitimately convicted or acquitted) in the context of the proposal on criminal sanctions for insider dealing and market manipulation. The majority of member states considered that it did not require a prescriptive solution at EU level. The presidency concluded that they would proceed not to seek to “solve” the ne bis in idem issue through the operative text of the instruments. There was also a discussion on the absence of minimum levels of criminal penalties in the draft directive.
The presidency provided a state of play update on the general data protection regulation and set out its approach to negotiations going forward, while also stating the intention to seek a partial general approach in December on the thematic issues of delegated and implementing acts and administrative burdens. There was also a broader discussion about instrument type and whether a directive was in fact more appropriate than a regulation given its ability to provide harmonisation, but also flexibility where appropriate.
The Commission introduced its proposed directive on the protection of the financial interests of the EU by criminal law (the PFI directive) which it published on 23 July this year. There was discussion on the legal base of the draft directive with the Council legal service stating their view that the current one was not correct. The Commission noted that they would await the views of the European Parliament’s legal service. The first detailed discussions at working group will take place on 30 and 31 October.
Under AOB, the presidency reported that two trilogues on the European investigation order had been scheduled for November; the Commission expressed support for the European Parliament’s view that the balance achieved in the Council general approach on this instrument was wrong.
There was also a presentation on the state of the drug problem in Europe by the European Monitoring Centre for Drugs and Drug Addiction (EMCDDA). The presidency also introduced the final report on the fifth round of mutual evaluations on financial crime and financial investigations. The presidency declared that the report would be discussed by the Standing Committee on Internal Security in November.
Over lunch Ministers discussed how protection for debtors could be improved in the European account preservation order. The majority of those intervening supported courts approving preservation orders in all cases. However the discussion was inconclusive about whether creditors should be obliged to provide security when applying for an order or whether a liability rule was needed to cover compensation to the debtor for any damage caused by an order.
Police (Remuneration)
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The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
On 27 March 2012 I issued a written statement to the House, Official Report, column 126WS on the Government’s response to Tom Winsor’s final report of his review of remuneration and conditions of service for police officers and staff in England and Wales.
In that statement I committed to consult with partners on proposals for implementing changes to the police officer pay machinery, including establishing a pay review body for officers.
I can confirm that the consultation on the implementation of this important reform will launch today on 24 October and close on 21 December. The consultation document and online questionnaire will be available on the Home Office website. My Department will ensure that all interested parties are aware of the launch of this consultation, including the Association of Chief Police Officers, the Police Federation and the Police Superintendents’ Association, to ensure that the views of police officers are heard. My Department will also work with the Association of Police Authorities, soon to be the Association of Police and Crime Commissioners (PCC), to ensure that PCCs have the opportunity to respond to the consultation when they take office. I would also welcome responses from other interested organisations and individuals.
The changes to the way in which police pay and conditions are determined, including establishing a pay review body, are part of a wider police reform agenda including the introduction of police and crime commissioners, the reduction in bureaucracy, developing professionalism in the service and the creation of the police professional body, and improving service to the public through collaboration between police forces. Police officers deserve to have pay and workforce arrangements that recognise the vital role they play in fighting crime and keeping the public safe, and enable them to deliver effectively for the public.
A copy of the consultation document is also available in the House Library and I will report to the House on the results of the consultation exercises early next year.
Justice and Home Affairs Council
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The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
The Justice and Home Affairs (JHA) Council is due to be held on 25 and 26 October in Luxembourg. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Justice and I will attend on behalf of the United Kingdom. As the provisional agenda stands, the following items will be discussed.
The Council will begin in mixed committee with Norway, Iceland, Liechtenstein and Switzerland (non-EU Schengen states) where there will be an update on the second generation Schengen information system (SIS II). The UK will continue to reiterate its support for the continuation of the current SIS II project. The Commission has committed to deliver the central element of SIS II in early 2013.
Next the Council will note a short update from the presidency on Bulgarian and Romanian accession to the Schengen acquis.
Greece, the Commission, Frontex and the European Asylum Support Office will provide an update on progress in implementing Greece’s national action plan on asylum reform and migration management. The Council will be asked to note that the action plan will be revised ahead of December’s JHA Council and, following the recommendation of various member states including the UK, we anticipate it will incorporate benchmarks to enable sustainable progress towards Greece establishing a functional asylum and migration system. The UK welcomes this development and the recent momentum in tackling migratory pressures in Greece, but hopes that the operational expertise of member states will be fully utilised in the setting of benchmarks, and in implementing the revised action plan.
The Commission and Frontex will provide presentations on latest illegal immigration trends. This will provide an opportunity for member states to highlight current priorities on tackling illegal immigration as set out in the road map on EU action on migratory pressures. Like other member states, the UK considers it important that illegal immigration remains a Council priority, and believes the road map must continue to be a tool that drives action rather than a bureaucratic process. The UK is one of the co-drivers of action on abuse of free movement by third-country nationals, as set out in the road map, and we continue to work with other member states, the Commission and EU partners seeking further practical progress in this area.
There will be an exchange of views around the third report on the post-visa liberalisation monitoring for the western Balkan countries in accordance with the Commission statement of 8 November 2010. This concerns the decision to grant visa-free travel to citizens of the western Balkan countries. The purpose of the third report is to present the actions undertaken under the post-visa liberalisation monitoring mechanism following the first and second Commission staff working papers in May and December 2011; to assess the progress made in the relevant Western Balkan countries after the last assessment (December 2011); and to identify the next steps and the concrete actions to be taken. Although the UK will not implement any of the changes following visa liberalisation, we can support the Commission’s approach in seeking to use visa liberalisation agreements as a way of encouraging the adoption of measures laid out in the visa dialogue road maps. The UK also supports the measures being introduced to combat abuse following the introduction of visa liberalisation agreements.
Over lunch there will be a discussion on intra-EU relocation of beneficiaries of international protection. The UK will emphasise the importance of practical co-operation as the expression of “solidarity” rather than relocation, and the need to ensure any proposal for action in this area does not go ahead until it can be demonstrated that the lessons of the previous project (in Malta) have been learnt.
The main Council will start with a “state of play” discussion on the civil protection mechanism. The UK would want to restrict the role of the Commission and encourage a risk-based approach to disaster risk management while retaining primary responsibility with member states. The UK also supports the concept of a voluntary pool of assets while ensuring that any common funding is limited to areas where there is demonstrable added value.
There will be a “state of play” discussion on the common European asylum system (CEAS). The presidency are keen to make as much progress as possible on the CEAS by the end of the year. The UK has opted in to the Dublin (III) regulation and the new Eurodac proposal. The UK has not opted in to the three other directives.
There will also be a state of play discussion on the establishment of a regional protection programme in response to the Syrian crisis. The presidency remains highly concerned about the situation in Syria and is keen to ensure that the EU helps neighbouring countries build their capacity to host any resulting refugees. They will be seeking Council agreement for the establishment of a regional protection programme for Syria. The UK is supportive of this in principle, while cautious about the detail of such a proposal, particularly if a significant resettlement element is envisaged.
The presidency will be seeking to adopt the Council conclusions on the protection of soft targets from terrorist activities. While the conclusions do not identify any new areas of work which are not already under way under CONTEST (the UK’s strategy for countering terrorism), international collaboration is essential and we support the presidency’s initiative, particularly in relation to the sharing of experience and best practice in protecting soft targets.
An implementation report is also being presented to the Council for adoption on enhancing the links between internal and external aspects of counter-terrorism. This capitalises on the opportunity to bring together the aims and activities of the internal and external aspects of counter-terrorism in the EU. The UK endorses the draft implementation plan and is pleased to note that our comments have been incorporated into the revised document. In both of these initiatives the UK has stressed that national security is a member state competence.
Under any other business there will be a presentation by the Commission on the illicit trafficking of firearms. The Council will also be updated on the European border surveillance system (EUROSUR) regulation, Schengen governance proposals and the EU Visa Regulation (539).
The justice day will begin with a state of play update and an orientation debate on the proposed draft directive creating minimum standards on the freezing and confiscation of proceeds of crime. The aim of the directive is to establish minimum standards in the freezing and confiscation of the proceeds and instrumentalities of crime in the EU. The proposed directive was last discussed at Council level at the informal meeting in July. The UK has not opted in to the proposed directive but will look to engage in the negotiations with a view to considering opting in at the post-adoption stage. The Cypriot presidency are committed to making substantial progress on the directive during their presidency.
The presidency will provide a state of play update which will be followed by an orientation debate on the proposal on criminal sanctions for insider dealing and market manipulation. The aims of the proposal are to establish minimum EU rules concerning the definition of criminal offences of market abuse—namely, insider dealing and market manipulation. The directive also seeks to complement the broader framework for tackling market abuse, which is provided for in the larger accompanying market abuse regulation. A partial general approach was agreed at the April JHA Council earlier this year. The UK has not opted in to this directive.
The Commission will be making a presentation on its proposed directive on the protection of the financial interests of the EU by criminal law (“the PFI directive”) which it published in 23 July this year. The draft directive would repeal and replace the existing EU convention and protocols on protection of financial interests (PFI). It proposes measures that aim to improve the equivalence and effectiveness of protection of the EU’s financial interests by criminal law sanctions.
A state of play report will also be given on the proposed regulation on the protection of individuals with regard to the processing of personal data and on the free flow of such data. The Commission published new legislative proposals for data protection in January which consist of a regulation and a directive. The proposed regulation will set out a general EU framework for data protection which would replace the existing Data Protection Directive (95/46/EC). This was last discussed at this level at the July informal Council.
Under non-legislative items the presidency will also be discussing the recommendations on the fifth report on mutual evaluations on financial crime and financial investigations. The report forms the latest of a series of mutual evaluations of how member states have carried out their obligations in the fight against organised crime.
Also under non-legislative items there will be a presentation on the state of the drug problem in Europe by the European Monitoring Centre for Drugs and Drug Addiction (EMCDDA).
Northern Ireland (Threat Level)
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The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
Today the Security Service reduced the threat level to Great Britain from Northern Ireland-related terrorism from substantial to moderate. This means that a terrorist attack is possible, but not likely.
The threat level to the UK from international terrorism remains at substantial, which means that an attack is a strong possibility. The threat level to Northern Ireland from Northern Ireland-related terrorism remains at severe, meaning that an attack is highly likely. Neither of these two levels has changed.
Despite the change which has been made today, there remains a real and serious threat against the United Kingdom from terrorism and I would ask the public to remain vigilant and to report any suspicious activity to the police.
The decision to change this threat level is taken by the Security Service independently of Ministers and is based on the very latest intelligence, considering factors such as capability, intent and time scale. Threat levels are kept under constant review.
College of Policing
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The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
In July I set out further information about the establishment of a professional body for policing, the College of Policing.
I can now update the House with progress on its establishment.
I am very pleased to announce my intention to appoint Alex Marshall as chief executive officer of the college. As chief constable of Hampshire and the Isle of Wight, Alex has overseen four consecutive years of crime reduction, rolled-out mobile data terminals to front-line officers and delivered around £40 million in savings. He has also maintained the numbers of police officers and police staff in visible local policing roles across Hampshire. Alex has also played a pivotal role in the formation of the national police air service which became operational earlier this month.
My Department has now legally incorporated a company limited by guarantee under the name “College of Policing Limited”. The college will become operational in December 2012. The college will be established on a statutory basis as soon as parliamentary time allows.
Creation of the College of Policing represents the final stage of the commitment to close the National Policing Improvement Agency by the end of 2012
Specified Proceedings Processes
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The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
Today I am announcing that we will grant the police new powers to prosecute a wider range of offences under specified proceedings provisions. These include driving without due care and attention, and criminal damage when the damage is valued at £5,000 or less.
I informed Parliament in May that, as part of the wider reform of the criminal justice system, the Attorney-General and I intend to simplify and extend these processes, to reduce unnecessary bureaucracy and ensure swifter justice. The new offences will build on the changes already made to enable police to continue to prosecute these cases when the defendant fails to appear in court or enter a plea by post, or where a driver pleads exceptional hardship to avoid a driving disqualification.
These changes will deliver more professional discretion for the police and allow the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) to focus on more complex cases, and offer the chance for better outcomes for victims and savings for the taxpayer. They eliminate the need for the police to hand over cases to the CPS where these are straightforward, uncontested and dealt with in the magistrates court.
Hillsborough
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The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
I beg to move,
That this House has considered the matter of the Hillsborough Independent Panel Report.
The Hillsborough independent panel published its report on 12 September. Alongside the report, it launched an archive consisting of hundreds of thousands of pages of records. The report and the archive reveal the truth about the Hillsborough disaster and its aftermath. What the panel has uncovered is shocking and disturbing, and it was right for my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, having read the report, to apologise to the families of the victims. In addition to that apology, however, there must be accountability. The bereaved families deserve a proper response to what is a comprehensive report. So today I want to set out the shape of that response and how we can, in the words of some of the families, move from truth to justice.
Before I do so, however, I want to remind the House of some of the panel’s findings. First, it found that the safety of the crowd entering Hillsborough’s Leppings Lane terrace was “compromised at every level”. The capacity of the terrace had been significantly over-calculated, meaning that hundreds more tickets were sold than the area could safely accommodate. Crush barriers were lower than set out in safety rules. Their layout was also inadequate. The small number of turnstiles meant that delays were always likely at a capacity match. There were three times more people per turnstile at Leppings Lane than at the opposite end of the ground.
Previous instances of crushing had not been recognised or acted on. Lessons had not been learned. When the disaster happened, neither the police nor the ambulance service properly activated their major incident procedure, which meant that command and control roles were not properly filled. The panel found
“repeated evidence of failures in leadership and emergency response coordination”.
There was no systematic triage of casualties and a lack of basic equipment. None of this takes away from the heroic work of spectators and individual members of the emergency services who fought to save lives, but the panel is clear that a swifter, better-equipped and better-focused emergency response could have saved more people.
The original inquests heard that the victims of Hillsborough suffered traumatic asphyxia leading to unconsciousness within seconds and death within a few minutes, but the detailed medical analysis produced by the panel tells a different story. The panel considered that there was definite evidence in 41 cases, and possibly in a further 17 others, that those who died did so after having survived for a longer period. In these cases, their condition was potentially recoverable, and they might have survived had there been a more effective emergency response. It is difficult to imagine how the families of those who died must feel hearing that fact after 23 years.
The truth, however hard to bear, should not have taken so long to be told. The panel’s report shows that the coroner at the original inquest acted on the medical advice of pathologists and after seeking the views of colleagues, but it also shows very clearly that the structure of the inquest and the imposition of a 3.15 pm cut-off of evidence meant that a false picture was presented and accepted as fact.
The panel’s report makes it clear that South Yorkshire police in the last couple of years have set an example in terms of the process of disclosure to the panel. However, its findings about South Yorkshire police in 1989 are stark. The panel’s report lays bare the reaction of the police in attempting to shift blame for the disaster on to the fans. Lord Justice Taylor’s report into Hillsborough found that the disaster’s main cause was
“the failure of police control”.
Inadequate crowd management and poor provision of turnstiles led to an unmanageable crush outside the ground. Taylor found that the police were right to respond by opening exit gate C but wrong to fail to consider where fans entering through that gate would go next. Most went straight ahead, down a tunnel marked “Standing”, into the already-full central pens. Failure to block that tunnel was, according to Lord Taylor’s report,
“a blunder of the first magnitude”.
The police, however, attempted to create a different story—one in which drunken Liverpool fans arrived in their thousands at the last minute and caused the disaster. Their late arrival, it was claimed, overwhelmed the police. Officers presented unfounded stories of vile behaviour to the press. The intention, according to the panel, was to
“develop and publicise a version of events that focused on…allegations of drunkenness, ticketlessness and violence”.
In seeking to make its case, South Yorkshire police went so far as to vet the written statements made by its officers. Once vetted, changes were made. The panel found that 164 statements were altered significantly. Of those, 116 were amended so as to remove content that was unfavourable to the police, including on its lack of leadership.
Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)
At the meeting of the Select Committee on Home Affairs last Tuesday, the present chief constable of South Yorkshire police was asked whether he accepted without qualification the panel’s report. He said yes.
Mrs May
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. He is absolutely right: the current chief constable has accepted what was in the report unconditionally. That is an important step for South Yorkshire police, but obviously we have to look at what the report says about South Yorkshire police.
Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con)
Is not part of the problem that there is currently limited, timid and weak sanction for any tampering by police officers with statements and witness statements? This is not the only case in the news today where witness statements and statements by officers have been tampered with. Clearly the current sanction is not strong enough, because if it was, perhaps we would have fewer incidents of this kind.
Mrs May
My hon. Friend raises an important point. I am coming on to talk about the investigations that will take place into the actions of South Yorkshire police, and obviously the issue that he has raised—the sanctions—is rightly something that should be considered alongside those investigations.
Let me return to the actions of the police. Perhaps even more shockingly, the panel also found evidence showing that officers carried out police national computer checks on those who had died. The panel said this was done in an attempt
“to impugn the reputations of the deceased”.
The whole House will want to join me in thanking the Bishop of Liverpool and all members of the panel for their thorough and revealing report. The panel’s report was shocking and disturbing, and the families of the victims must have found its contents harrowing. But although it is painful and will make many people angry, the report brings the full truth of Hillsborough into the light of day. The truth that some families have long known or suspected is now clear for all to see and to respect. I believe my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister spoke for all of us in the House when he apologised to the families of the 96 for what he called the “double injustice” that they have suffered: first, the injustice of the appalling events and the indefensible wait to get to the truth; and secondly, the injustice of what he called the “denigration of the deceased”—the suggestion that those who died were somehow responsible for their own deaths and for those of their friends and fellow fans.
But after the truth must come justice; and after the apology, accountability. So let me set out for the House what is happening now. The Independent Police Complaints Commission has announced an investigation into the panel’s findings. The investigation will cover potential criminality and misconduct in respect of police officers, both serving and retired. It will be thorough and wide-ranging. As I have previously said, I remain committed to ensuring that the IPCC has all the powers and resources it needs to carry out its investigations thoroughly, transparently and exhaustively. The Government are already looking at what additional powers the IPCC will need, which includes proposals to require current and ex-police officers who may be witness to a crime to attend an interview, and whether this might require fast-track legislation. I therefore welcome what the shadow Home Secretary set out at the weekend about the opportunity for us to sit down and discuss the proposals, and to see whether fast-track legislation is the right way forward—I think my office has already been in touch with hers to try to get a suitable date in mind.
Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)
As the Home Secretary probably knows, the South Yorkshire chief constable wrote to me on Friday to say that he has sent a list of 1,444 names of former and serving officers of South Yorkshire police to the IPCC. That is a huge number of names—more than we expected. Has the IPCC approached her to ask for additional resources, bearing in mind that it already has a large workload? It is important that we deal with the resources issue right at the start.
Mrs May
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for making that extremely valid point. The number of names sent by the chief constable of South Yorkshire makes clear the enormity of the issue. The Home Office is in discussion with the IPCC about the resources that it might need to ensure that it can conduct the investigation as thoroughly and exhaustively as we would all wish.
In addition to the question about the IPCC’s powers in the investigation, it is also important to recognise that, in the case of Hillsborough, a number of individuals and organisations other than the police or ex-police officers will be investigated. We need to ensure that all these investigations are robust and properly co-ordinated, and that other investigations do not in any way compromise the independence of the IPCC. An important part of that will be to ensure that any police officers who are involved in any investigations are not from South Yorkshire police, now or in the past.
I am also very clear that, as we go through this process and decide on the next steps, it is important that the families should be consulted at every stage and that our proposals should be discussed with them.
Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)
I wrote to the Prime Minister recently about how this investigation was to be taken forward, and received a response from one of the Home Secretary’s Ministers. Will all the information and documentation relating to any future decisions be made available for public scrutiny?
Mrs May
The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. We will obviously need to see what material will be required for the investigations, and what material might be used as evidence in any charges and prosecutions that are brought. I will certainly look at the issue that he has raised about continuing transparency, which I recognise has been important in relation to the documents that have been released so far. Perhaps I can come back to him on that point.
Mr David Blunkett (Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough) (Lab)
May I return to the question of resourcing that was raised by the Chair of the Home Affairs Committee, my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz)? A number of agencies, including local government and the police, will be involved as a consequence of the inquest, and many other operations will need to be undertaken that will require substantial resourcing. Can we have an assurance that those costs will be met centrally, rather than in a way that could affect the operation of other services to people in the communities affected?
Mrs May
I hear what the right hon. Gentleman is saying, and I understand his concern that other services should not suffer as a result of any requirements being placed on such organisations. I cannot give a commitment across the board at this stage. We are talking to the IPCC about the resources that it will need, and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health will be looking at the implications for any health bodies that are involved. We want to ensure that the investigations are as thorough and exhaustive as possible, and we would not wish to put any barriers in the way of that happening, but a significant number of bodies will be involved, and we have to look at the matter very carefully. Specifically in regard to the IPCC, we are already having discussions about any requirements that it might have.
Mr Frank Field (Birkenhead) (Lab)
The Home Secretary has said that we are moving towards a point of accountability, and she has mentioned the police. Before she completes her contribution to the debate, will she list the other public and private bodies to which we might wish accountability to be applied?
Mrs May
My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health will certainly be covering a number of those bodies in his closing remarks this evening. As I have already mentioned, there were issues around the operation of the ambulance service, for example. Further public sector bodies might be involved. Those who are looking at the report are determining which bodies need to be investigated, and the list is currently being compiled. I can, however, commit that we will provide a list for the House at an appropriate point in due course, so that everyone is able to see all the bodies that are involved.
Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con)
Will my right hon. Friend tell us whether there will be a process whereby the investigation can look into those who, although not involved in the services that she has mentioned, added to or fuelled the salacious rumours that were going around? I am thinking in particular of the local MP at the time. Could such matters be looked into, or would they be a matter for a private prosecution by the families?
Mrs May
I am absolutely clear that the various investigations—I shall come on to other aspects of investigation—will look at the totality of the report and its findings, and will identify any cases where there has been a suggestion of criminality; and if there has been such a suggestion, it will be properly investigated.
Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab)
With the families’ hopes dashed on so many occasions, does it not shame us as the mother of all Parliaments that it has taken 23 years for the families to get to this stage where at least the truth is out, but justice is still to be done?
Mrs May
The hon. Gentleman is right, but I think that the issue goes wider than that. Going back to the remarks that the Prime Minister made in his statement, the problem for the families was that a sort of collective view came to be held across the country—that the fans had been responsible. We can discuss how that came about—it is quite clear in the report how it was fuelled by certain newspaper reports—but everybody came to accept that view and not to question it. It is to the great honour of the hon. Gentleman and a number of other Opposition Members, and to the families themselves, that they held fast to their belief through those 23 years. I hope that they can now take some comfort in the fact that the truth is out there. That double injustice has come to the surface and people have recognised it.
Mr David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab)
The Home Secretary said that it became the collective view of everybody across the country that this was the fans’ fault, but let me be clear that that is completely and utterly incorrect. Many people across the country were very clear that it was not the fans’ fault, and very few people from my background were surprised to find that the former Prime Minister, the police and certain newspapers were in cahoots.
Mrs May
I recognise that there will have been individuals, perhaps in certain parts of the country, who took a different view. What happened was that, collectively or as a whole, nothing was done, and nobody responded to that view. This happened, I think, because there was an acceptance of the story that had been put about. As I said, that was the second injustice to the families that the Prime Minister mentioned. They had to suffer not only not seeing brought to light what they believed was the truth about what had happened to their loved ones and friends, but the injustice of being told that it was those individuals’ own fault. That is absolutely shameful.
John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD)
Does the Home Secretary agree that our system is at times vulnerable to cover-ups, and that we need to look at the processes to try to make sure that we have no more of them?
Mrs May
The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. I assume that in the course of these investigations, some issues of that sort will be raised and we will need to look at them. I shall say a little more later about the accountability of the police.
Moving on to deal with further investigations, the Director of Public Prosecutions has initiated a review of the panel’s findings. His review will inform a decision as to whether there are grounds to pursue prosecution of any of the parties identified in the report. If the DPP decides that further investigation is necessary, I will ensure that this can be carried out swiftly and thoroughly. In the case of police officers, it is likely that the IPCC will pick up the investigative role. If the DPP finds that a broader investigation is necessary, we will appoint a senior experienced investigator—entirely independent and unconnected to these events—to operate an investigation team within the new National Crime Agency.
The bereaved families have long considered the original inquest to have been inadequate, and the Hillsborough independent panel has pointed to significant flaws. My right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General has studied the panel’s report in detail and looked at the disclosed material and the previous requests for new inquests that were declined by his predecessors. He has confirmed that he will apply to the High Court for the original inquest to be quashed and a new one ordered.
Right hon. and hon. Members will know that it is for the High Court and not for Government to make the final decision, and that we must be careful not to pre-judge the Court’s consideration. Should the Court agree a new inquest, I have asked the chairman of the Hillsborough independent panel, the Bishop of Liverpool, to work with the new chief coroner to ensure that arrangements are put in place in which the families are central, and to ensure that the new inquest is run in a way that reflects the dignity and respect that the families have themselves so consistently demonstrated. I have also asked the Bishop of Liverpool to act as my adviser more generally on Hillsborough-related matters, and he has agreed to do so.
Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)
At the original inquest the families had to cover their own costs, including the costs of attending. Can the Home Secretary comment at this stage on whether the costs of the families’ involvement in future inquests might be borne by the public purse?
Mrs May
That point has been raised with me directly by families and by representatives of families and survivors, and my officials are looking into it now.
As I said earlier, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health will say more about the role of health professionals and emergency health services in respect of Hillsborough when he closes the debate. I know that, like me, he has met representatives of the Hillsborough families, and has taken a close interest in the work of the panel. I also know that, with his responsibilities for the health service, he shares my determination to ensure that proper action is taken when individuals or institutions are found to be at fault.
The Government’s Chief Medical Officer, Professor Dame Sally Davies, has already written to the Royal College of Pathologists, the College of Emergency Medicine and the General Medical Council drawing their attention to the panel’s work and asking them to consider its implications. The Department of Health has also drawn the panel’s report to the attention of the General Medical Council, which will be considering whether there is a need to investigate any currently practising doctors.
The chief executive of the NHS, Sir David Nicholson, has written to the chief executives of ambulance services and hospitals that provide emergency care to ensure that they are aware of the panel’s findings. Last week, given the panel’s findings in relation to the alteration of statements in the ambulance service, the Department of Health asked the Health and Care Professions Council, which regulates ambulance paramedics, to consider whether any actions taken by currently serving ambulance staff might merit further investigation.
I was steadfast in my support for the panel, and I am equally steadfast in my determination that the processes that are now taking shape must be pursued with all the rigour that the panel showed in its work. I have set out the action being taken by the Independent Police Complaints Commission, the Director of Public Prosecutions, the Attorney-General and others, but it is clear that that action will require a co-ordinated approach. Representatives of the IPCC, the DPP and the Attorney-General are already in contact and working together, and I can give a commitment that, as part of my ongoing role as the Government’s lead minister for Hillsborough, I will ensure that a fully co-ordinated approach is adopted. I have met representatives of the bereaved families and survivors, and I will ensure that they are consulted further about the arrangements.
Keith Vaz
I am grateful to the Home Secretary for giving way a second time. As she knows, the families came to see the Select Committee last Tuesday, and I am glad that she was able to see them on Thursday. They suggested that the DPP should have oversight of all the different agencies. I know that the Home Secretary will be the lead Minister and that Stephen Rimmer will be the responsible official in her Department, but does she not think that a single person should co-ordinate all the various agencies? There is a possibility that things might get lost in various different places otherwise. I am merely seeking the Home Secretary’s view on what is best.
Mrs May
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for raising that point, which I discussed with representatives of the families when they came to see me. A number of meetings are taking place with representatives this week to consider a number of options for how that co-ordination can take place. We are looking at all those options, and I assure him that the option that was raised then will be in the mix. We must ensure that we get what is right, and what the families can have confidence in.
I take immensely seriously the report’s implications for public confidence in the integrity of the police. Police officers in this country police with the consent of their fellow citizens, but they can only do that if they have the trust of their fellow citizens. The actions of officers, especially senior officers, at Hillsborough and immediately following the disaster strike at the heart of that trust. There are also wider problems that give cause for concern in relation to the integrity of the police. In recent weeks we have seen a constable and a chief constable dismissed for gross misconduct, and a number of senior officers across the country are currently under investigation for misconduct. Lord Justice Leveson will report shortly on the findings of his inquiry, and Operations Elveden and Weeting continue to uncover the involvement of individual police officers and police staff in the activities of News International. This all generates a level of public concern and loss of confidence in the police that is damaging to the reputation of the vast majority of decent, hard-working police officers, and therefore to their ability to police with consent.
Our programme of police reform includes a new college of policing, which will work to improve police leadership and professional standards. Police and crime commissioners, elected next month, will bring greater transparency and local accountability to policing. Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary is becoming more independent. I have also already said that I am prepared to give extra resources and new powers to the IPCC.
Mark Pritchard
I am grateful to the Home Secretary for giving way a second time; she is being most generous. I am sure she agrees that the governing coalition does not have a monopoly of wisdom on legislation and good ideas as to how this country can be better governed, so will she remain open-minded about the shadow Home Secretary’s recently announced plans to replace the IPCC with a new police standards authority? A lot of people think the IPCC is not fit for purpose. It will be very busy over the coming months, and it is right that we stick with it and support it, but will she be open-minded about the possibility of bringing in a Bill to establish a new police standards authority before the next election?
Mrs May
I am always willing to be open-minded on a number of such matters. The IPCC is under new chairmanship, and I think Dame Anne Owers has done an excellent job in the limited time she has been at the IPCC in showing its genuine independence and her desire to make sure the organisation has all the powers and resources it needs to be able to do the job it currently has to do in conducting a number of investigations, but I have outlined a number of changes that I believe will bring greater accountability to the police. All those changes will make a positive difference in terms of public confidence in the integrity of the police, but I will return to the House by the new year with fuller proposals to ensure that the police operate to the highest ethical standards and that the public can have full confidence in police integrity.
I would like to end by paying tribute to the families of the 96 and all those who have supported them over the many years. Their persistence and indomitability, driven by love for those they have lost, are an inspiration. They have fought for justice, and not warm words, but I would like to place on the record my respect for them all the same, and I offer them this commitment: the Government will do everything in their power to support them in moving from truth to justice.
Yvette Cooper
I welcome that clarification. The interest of the families and the public in this lies in having a properly co-ordinated investigation. We do not want to have a separate IPCC investigation and a parallel criminal investigation but a single, co-ordinated investigation.
Mrs May
Perhaps I can clarify the situation. There is the IPCC investigation and there is also the investigation by the DPP that is taking place. If the DPP believes that a wider investigation is necessary, the Home Office will make resources available under the ambit of the incoming National Crime Agency for an investigator who is completely separate and has no connection whatever with these issues. We would expect to put the co-ordination role in place fairly soon, because this is also about making sure that things get done. For example, we must ensure that if it looks as though there is a delay in any part of the investigation, then somebody, or a group of people, can press the body concerned, whether it be the IPCC, the DPP or individuals, to get on with the job. An investigation must be done fully and properly to uncover the truth and bring about justice, but we also need to make sure that it is not going to drag on and on, because the families do not deserve that.
Yvette Cooper
I welcome the Home Secretary’s clarification. First, the co-ordination is very welcome. Secondly, however, should the Director of Public Prosecutions decide that prosecutions should be pursued—there seems to be strong support in the House for him to do so, although it is clearly an independent decision for him—would that result in a single investigative team involving the police and the Independent Police Complaints Commission, or would there continue to be, in effect, two parallel investigations by the IPCC and criminal investigators? That would raise concerns, given the fact that the IPCC can pursue both criminal and disciplinary investigations.
I urge the Home Secretary to consider, as part of her role in the co-ordination process, having a single team, with full police investigative powers and led by a special prosecutor, for the criminal investigation, and for it to consist of police officers from a range of different forces, perhaps under the auspices of the National Crime Agency. The role played by the West Midlands police in the original investigation was clearly a problem and the panel’s report raised considerable concerns. Drawing police officers from a series of different forces would give the investigation greater authority.
We are keen to explore with the Home Secretary whether additional powers could be granted to the IPCC —perhaps through emergency legislation—so that it can pursue disciplinary action as well as criminal investigations. I welcome the contact that her office made this morning to ensure that we can speedily take those discussions forward. We are interested in supporting emergency legislation to enable the IPCC to compel witnesses and access third-party data.
Thirdly, although a special prosecutor is welcome, the Government will be aware that there have also been failings over Hillsborough at the Crown Prosecution Service in the past, so some additional oversight may be needed.
Fourthly, I welcome the points that Government Front-Bench representatives have made about resources. The IPCC has said that a substantial amount of work is required initially to scope the investigation, including identifying the resources required. It is, therefore, likely to be many months before officers are contacted by the investigation team. Any further delay would be of considerable concern. I hope that the Home Secretary and others can provide reassurance about the availability of those resources.
My final point on the disciplinary investigations is that the IPCC has noted that retired police officers are not liable for any misconduct sanction. That is obviously very troubling for the public in many cases, because it makes it possible for police officers who have committed serious misconduct, or who have breached the great trust put in the office of constable, to retire on full pension without any further investigation or sanction. Given that 23 years have passed since Hillsborough, this is a particularly sensitive concern. Many officers have already retired and many more may do so before these investigations are concluded. Will the Home Secretary consider the issue carefully?