Hillsborough

Keith Vaz Excerpts

Monday 22nd October 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mrs May]

My hon. Friend raises an important point. I am coming on to talk about the investigations that will take place into the actions of South Yorkshire police, and obviously the issue that he has raised—the sanctions—is rightly something that should be considered alongside those investigations.

Let me return to the actions of the police. Perhaps even more shockingly, the panel also found evidence showing that officers carried out police national computer checks on those who had died. The panel said this was done in an attempt

“to impugn the reputations of the deceased”.

The whole House will want to join me in thanking the Bishop of Liverpool and all members of the panel for their thorough and revealing report. The panel’s report was shocking and disturbing, and the families of the victims must have found its contents harrowing. But although it is painful and will make many people angry, the report brings the full truth of Hillsborough into the light of day. The truth that some families have long known or suspected is now clear for all to see and to respect. I believe my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister spoke for all of us in the House when he apologised to the families of the 96 for what he called the “double injustice” that they have suffered: first, the injustice of the appalling events and the indefensible wait to get to the truth; and secondly, the injustice of what he called the “denigration of the deceased”—the suggestion that those who died were somehow responsible for their own deaths and for those of their friends and fellow fans.

But after the truth must come justice; and after the apology, accountability. So let me set out for the House what is happening now. The Independent Police Complaints Commission has announced an investigation into the panel’s findings. The investigation will cover potential criminality and misconduct in respect of police officers, both serving and retired. It will be thorough and wide-ranging. As I have previously said, I remain committed to ensuring that the IPCC has all the powers and resources it needs to carry out its investigations thoroughly, transparently and exhaustively. The Government are already looking at what additional powers the IPCC will need, which includes proposals to require current and ex-police officers who may be witness to a crime to attend an interview, and whether this might require fast-track legislation. I therefore welcome what the shadow Home Secretary set out at the weekend about the opportunity for us to sit down and discuss the proposals, and to see whether fast-track legislation is the right way forward—I think my office has already been in touch with hers to try to get a suitable date in mind.

[Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)]

As the Home Secretary probably knows, the South Yorkshire chief constable wrote to me on Friday to say that he has sent a list of 1,444 names of former and serving officers of South Yorkshire police to the IPCC. That is a huge number of names—more than we expected. Has the IPCC approached her to ask for additional resources, bearing in mind that it already has a large workload? It is important that we deal with the resources issue right at the start.

[Mrs May]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for making that extremely valid point. The number of names sent by the chief constable of South Yorkshire makes clear the enormity of the issue. The Home Office is in discussion with the IPCC about the resources that it might need to ensure that it can conduct the investigation as thoroughly and exhaustively as we would all wish.

In addition to the question about the IPCC’s powers in the investigation, it is also important to recognise that, in the case of Hillsborough, a number of individuals and organisations other than the police or ex-police officers will be investigated. We need to ensure that all these investigations are robust and properly co-ordinated, and that other investigations do not in any way compromise the independence of the IPCC. An important part of that will be to ensure that any police officers who are involved in any investigations are not from South Yorkshire police, now or in the past.

I am also very clear that, as we go through this process and decide on the next steps, it is important that the families should be consulted at every stage and that our proposals should be discussed with them.

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[Mrs May]

That point has been raised with me directly by families and by representatives of families and survivors, and my officials are looking into it now.

As I said earlier, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health will say more about the role of health professionals and emergency health services in respect of Hillsborough when he closes the debate. I know that, like me, he has met representatives of the Hillsborough families, and has taken a close interest in the work of the panel. I also know that, with his responsibilities for the health service, he shares my determination to ensure that proper action is taken when individuals or institutions are found to be at fault.

The Government’s Chief Medical Officer, Professor Dame Sally Davies, has already written to the Royal College of Pathologists, the College of Emergency Medicine and the General Medical Council drawing their attention to the panel’s work and asking them to consider its implications. The Department of Health has also drawn the panel’s report to the attention of the General Medical Council, which will be considering whether there is a need to investigate any currently practising doctors.

The chief executive of the NHS, Sir David Nicholson, has written to the chief executives of ambulance services and hospitals that provide emergency care to ensure that they are aware of the panel’s findings. Last week, given the panel’s findings in relation to the alteration of statements in the ambulance service, the Department of Health asked the Health and Care Professions Council, which regulates ambulance paramedics, to consider whether any actions taken by currently serving ambulance staff might merit further investigation.

I was steadfast in my support for the panel, and I am equally steadfast in my determination that the processes that are now taking shape must be pursued with all the rigour that the panel showed in its work. I have set out the action being taken by the Independent Police Complaints Commission, the Director of Public Prosecutions, the Attorney-General and others, but it is clear that that action will require a co-ordinated approach. Representatives of the IPCC, the DPP and the Attorney-General are already in contact and working together, and I can give a commitment that, as part of my ongoing role as the Government’s lead minister for Hillsborough, I will ensure that a fully co-ordinated approach is adopted. I have met representatives of the bereaved families and survivors, and I will ensure that they are consulted further about the arrangements.

[Keith Vaz]

I am grateful to the Home Secretary for giving way a second time. As she knows, the families came to see the Select Committee last Tuesday, and I am glad that she was able to see them on Thursday. They suggested that the DPP should have oversight of all the different agencies. I know that the Home Secretary will be the lead Minister and that Stephen Rimmer will be the responsible official in her Department, but does she not think that a single person should co-ordinate all the various agencies? There is a possibility that things might get lost in various different places otherwise. I am merely seeking the Home Secretary’s view on what is best.

[Mrs May]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for raising that point, which I discussed with representatives of the families when they came to see me. A number of meetings are taking place with representatives this week to consider a number of options for how that co-ordination can take place. We are looking at all those options, and I assure him that the option that was raised then will be in the mix. We must ensure that we get what is right, and what the families can have confidence in.

I take immensely seriously the report’s implications for public confidence in the integrity of the police. Police officers in this country police with the consent of their fellow citizens, but they can only do that if they have the trust of their fellow citizens. The actions of officers, especially senior officers, at Hillsborough and immediately following the disaster strike at the heart of that trust. There are also wider problems that give cause for concern in relation to the integrity of the police. In recent weeks we have seen a constable and a chief constable dismissed for gross misconduct, and a number of senior officers across the country are currently under investigation for misconduct. Lord Justice Leveson will report shortly on the findings of his inquiry, and Operations Elveden and Weeting continue to uncover the involvement of individual police officers and police staff in the activities of News International. This all generates a level of public concern and loss of confidence in the police that is damaging to the reputation of the vast majority of decent, hard-working police officers, and therefore to their ability to police with consent.

Our programme of police reform includes a new college of policing, which will work to improve police leadership and professional standards. Police and crime commissioners, elected next month, will bring greater transparency and local accountability to policing. Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary is becoming more independent. I have also already said that I am prepared to give extra resources and new powers to the IPCC.

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[Keith Vaz]

My right hon. Friend and the Home Secretary have both made eloquent speeches. It is heartening to see Parliament at one on this very important issue.

When the families came to give evidence to the Home Affairs Committee, they talked about the need for co-ordination. My right hon. Friend has pointed to the problems with some of the powers of the IPCC. There may be a case for a special prosecutor—an individual who can draw all the strands together. It has been suggested that it should be the DPP, but I think that he will be too busy to do something of this kind. Does my right hon. Friend agree that we will lose the initiative if we do not have a single point of co-ordination? The Home Secretary has the powers to do this; let us use them.

[Yvette Cooper]

I agree with my right hon. Friend about the importance of co-ordination and the value of having a special prosecutor in these circumstances. It might be helpful if Ministers said a bit more about whether there is any concern about how long it will take for the DPP to decide whether further criminal prosecutions will be pursued given that a special prosecutor and a special investigative team may not be established until after that decision has been taken. In other words, what resources does the DPP need in the meantime in order to take the decision about criminal prosecutions? The IPCC is beginning investigations now, and there is a question about how long these will take to get going.

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[Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Thurrock (Jackie Doyle-Price), who made an eloquent and balanced speech drawing on her own experience and putting what we have heard over the past few days and weeks into the context of overall policing. I also want to pay tribute to the Home Secretary and the shadow Home Secretary. They both made outstanding speeches today, and they showed the House at its very best. The Government have reacted and, frankly, they have not put a foot wrong following the publication of the independent panel’s report. I am grateful to the Home Secretary for the way in which she has given her personal attention to this issue, knowing that, as Home Secretary, she has a lot of things to do. It is one of the toughest jobs, if not the toughest job, in the Government, but she has given this matter the necessary quality time.

The thoughts that the shadow Home Secretary, my right hon. Friend the Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper), has expressed today on how to reconstruct the system for the future, and in particular on the way in which we should develop the Independent Police Complaints Commission, are very welcome. I saw today a desire from those on both Front Benches to work together to ensure that, as the Home Secretary said, from truth we shall get justice.

The Home Secretary and the shadow Home Secretary were present at the police bravery awards last Thursday, and I heard them both praise the British police as the finest in the world. That does not, however, take away from the fact of this damning report by the independent panel into what happened 23 years ago. I want to pay tribute to Members on both sides of the House for the way in which they have prosecuted the cause of the families, who have struggled so hard in very difficult circumstances to get justice.

Today, I want to concentrate on the future, because there is a danger that, despite all the good will and all the work being done by the various agencies, we could lose track of precisely how we are going to arrive at a conclusion on this subject. I want to refer to the evidence given by David Compton, the South Yorkshire chief constable, when he appeared before the Home Affairs Select Committee last Tuesday. We are not holding another inquiry into Hillsborough. We have had the definitive inquiry. All that the Committee wishes to do is monitor on a regular basis what is happening, just as we have done with Operation Weeting, which was set up following the phone hacking scandal. We will therefore call back the chief constable and the families on a four-monthly basis to ensure that things are going in the right direction. We are not holding an inquiry.

The chief constable gave excellent evidence. He was forthright and transparent, and he promised that he would write to the IPCC by last Friday with the names of the officers who were involved in some way in what happened at Hillsborough. As I said earlier, the names of 1,444 officers have now been sent to the IPCC, of whom 304 are still serving in the South Yorkshire force. It immediately becomes clear, given the number of names involved, that there will be a problem with resources. I welcome what the Home Secretary has said about that today, but she should not wait for the IPCC to come to see her. A meeting should be convened pretty quickly to ask the IPCC what it needs, and to give it those resources. I am watching the Home Secretary’s face as I speak, and I am sure that she has already fixed such a meeting. We often say in the House, “If they need the resources, they should come and ask for them”, but we should go to the IPCC and offer it what it needs.

We also received evidence last week from the families themselves. Many of their names have already appeared in parliamentary reports, including those of Trevor Hicks, Jenny Hicks, Margaret Aspinall and Sheila Coleman. They all came and gave evidence to us, alongside Lord Falconer, who is advising the Hillsborough families. They were concerned about co-ordination and they suggested that the Director of Public Prosecutions should have overall superintendence of the various agencies. However, I am not absolutely convinced that it would be the best course of action to place this matter into the hands of the DPP, another very busy senior official.

I favour the idea of appointing a special prosecutor to look into all these cases and to act as a co-ordination point, because it is really important that we wrap this up in the personality of one person. I put the idea to the Home Secretary right at the start that this could perhaps be done by Tom Winsor, the new chief inspector of constabulary. This is a role for the inspectorate. It should not be about police officers investigating police officers; it should involve someone completely new coming into the system to look into it. I do not know whether he has the resources to do that. There are a number of other people who could take on the task. I would also like to throw in the name of Denis O’Connor. He has just stood down from the role of chief inspector of constabulary, and would therefore be unburdened by day-to-day management duties. We need a figure with experience who can command respect and who can bring all the various agencies together.

I am glad that the Home Secretary said that she would hold meetings this week. It is really important that we take on board what the families say, and that we try to cut through the bureaucracy that will inevitably result from all the agencies trying to do their very best by those families, and by the stated views of Members on both sides of the House, as I am sure they will do. I hope that we can reach a conclusion quickly.

I am glad that the Home Secretary was able to see the Hillsborough families. They had contacted her office before they came to appear before the Committee, but they said that they had not received a definitive reply. I was therefore pleased that she was able to meet them at such short notice. It is they who have been driving this whole issue over the past 23 years, and we should put them right at the centre of what we are seeking to do. We all have our views and opinions but, at the end of the day, it is the families who should turn to Parliament and say, “We need closure, and this is how we are going to get it.”

The hon. Member for Elmet and Rothwell (Alec Shelbrooke) mentioned Norman Bettison earlier. I was surprised recently to be rung up by The Times newspaper and to be told that, 23 years ago, I had been to a briefing meeting held by the police officers who had policed Hillsborough, and that I had left the meeting before the end. The press asked me why I had done that, and I had to tell them that I cannot remember what I did last week, and that I certainly cannot remember what I did 23 years ago. I can only imagine the detail of the reports of such meetings, if Norman Bettison was able to write in his report that Keith Vaz had left a meeting early, as though that suggested something pejorative about the way in which the meeting had been conducted. Officers in the South Yorkshire police force were clearly keeping detailed notes on what Members of Parliament were doing in the meetings that they had organised in order to discuss these issues. We should give the IPCC the opportunity to make a judgment on Norman Bettison’s case. I know what the families feel, and I have heard what he has said today.

We should also look at the whole way in which policing operates at the moment. There are a lot of different cases going on. My hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) has raised some questions in the press today, and I know that he will raise them in Parliament when he speaks. The fact is that we need to look at the new policing landscape. The Government are right to try to change it with the creation of the National Crime Agency and the new college. All these issues need to be addressed. I am not convinced that we should reform the IPCC in the middle of these negotiations, but we can clearly take on board what the shadow Home Secretary has said about giving it additional powers so that it can complete these investigations properly.

The Select Committee is conducting an inquiry into the IPCC, and tomorrow we shall see Marie Rigg, the mother of Sean Rigg. For years, she has felt that his case was not properly dealt with by the IPCC, so the Hillsborough families are not alone in criticising the organisation. We want to hold a proper inquiry and give proper recommendations to the Home Office, taking on board what the shadow Home Secretary and others have said. At the end of the day, according to the families, the only way to get closure will be for people to be prosecuted for what happened. Who those people are, Parliament does not know at this moment. All that we can do is ensure that we have a good, robust process so that justice can finally be done.