Home Affairs and Justice
Baroness May of Maidenhead Excerpts(12 years, 7 months ago)
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The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
In justice and home affairs, the coalition Government achieved a great deal in the first parliamentary Session. We legislated to bring in elected police and crime commissioners, giving proper public accountability to policing. We brought in reforms to reduce reoffending and started paying by results. We rolled back unwarranted state intrusion into private lives through the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. We placed successful investigation and prosecution, once again, at the heart of our strategy for countering terrorism. We reduced the cost of legal aid, while protecting the vulnerable.
In the second Session, we are bringing forward further reforms to strengthen public protection; to better tackle serious crime and defend our borders; to make justice swifter, fairer and more comprehensive; to maintain and modernise our communications data capabilities; and to improve the oversight of the security intelligence agencies that keep us safe.
The Gracious Speech included the Crime and Courts Bill, which was introduced into another place earlier today. Current estimates suggest that serious, organised and complex crime costs our country between £20 billion and £40 billion a year. Law enforcement figures suggest that there are more than 7,000 organised crime groups that impact on the UK, involving about 30,000 individuals. Even those figures may underestimate the impact. Behind those statistics is the human misery that serious and organised crime inflicts on our communities. The drug dealing on street corners, the burglary and mugging by addicts, and the credit card fraud that robs so many are all fundamentally driven by serious, organised and complex crime.
As well as growing, that threat is changing. That means that our law enforcement response must also change. Visible neighbourhood policing is vital, but it will not deal with the cyber-criminal who is raiding bank accounts directly from overseas. Arresting drug dealers is important, but it will not stop the flow of drugs from abroad. Vetting and barring are important, but they cannot protect a child from the dangers that lurk online. To deal with those new threats, we need a new crime fighting force—a force that is capable of working across police boundaries and organisational divisions; a force that can defend our borders and deal with the economic consequences of complex crime; a force that protects children and vulnerable people and is active in cyberspace. That crime fighting force will be the National Crime Agency.
Alun Michael (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)
The Home Secretary has used the phrase “serious and organised crime” a number of times. Is she aware of the high reputation of the Serious Organised Crime Agency internationally in south America and many other places around the world that are involved in combating the people trafficking and drug trafficking to which she has referred? How will she ensure that, with the changes in organisation and the new name, we do not lose the brand and the reputation that have been built over many years?
Mrs May
I am well aware of the good name that SOCA has across the world. When I visit other countries, I try to speak to local SOCA liaison officers, where we have them, and I have met some of our liaison officers from south America when they have been in the UK.
I know the value that other law enforcement agencies across the world place on the work that SOCA does. That is why the National Crime Agency will build on the good work that SOCA has developed. SOCA will become the serious and organised crime command within the NCA, so we will develop the good work that has been done. I believe that being within the NCA will give SOCA a greater ability to deal with these issues. Linking SOCA with the border police command, the economic crime command and the Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre will give us a greater ability to act across the various types of serious and organised crime. Criminals do not compartmentalise their crime. Serious and organised crime groups are often involved in many types of crime and we need to reflect that in our law enforcement capability.
Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central) (Lab)
There are a couple of areas of anxiety concerning the NCA. The first is that it has no clear line of accountability to the general public. Perhaps the Home Secretary can give some information on the mechanisms of accountability to local communities. Secondly, as I understand it the NCA will have fewer staff than SOCA. Which of SOCA’s responsibilities will therefore disappear? If I am wrong, perhaps she can clarify how the staffing and financing of the NCA will compare to those of SOCA. The ambiguity and confusion around those issues have not been cleared up.
Mrs May
I visited SOCA some weeks ago and spoke to its staff about the situation that will pertain when it comes into the National Crime Agency. Discussions are obviously taking place with staff about the arrangements for the transition. There is a limit to what can be done until we are in a position to introduce and take forward a Bill, but those discussions will take place. I recognise that at a time of transition there is always a degree of uncertainty for individuals. That happens because of the process of transition, but we will make every effort to continue discussions with staff about what will happen when SOCA comes into the NCA.
In terms of accountability and responsibility, the NCA director general will be responsible to the Home Secretary and through the Home Secretary to Parliament. I have every confidence that the Chairman of the Select Committee on Home Affairs, who has already shown a significant interest in the matter, will make every effort to ensure that his Committee has the opportunity to look into the workings of the NCA—
Mr Sheerman
I missed the first two minutes of the Home Secretary’s speech, but I am keen to get into the debate because I have been outside talking about the dreadful case of criminals preying on children in Rochdale. My constituents do not really care what an agency is called; they want an effective mechanism. When I led a debate on child prostitution and the curse that we had across the northern region, I pointed out that one of the central problems is the not-joined-up relationship between different police forces in Lancashire, Yorkshire and Nottinghamshire.
Madam Deputy Speaker
Order. The hon. Gentleman will sit down when I say “Order”. Interventions should be brief, and it is customary to ask a Minister to give way before launching into an intervention, although the Home Secretary is perfectly capable of taking care of herself.
Mrs May
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I recognise that the hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman) passionately believes in, and cares greatly about, the issue he raised—and, frankly, so should we all. Sadly, child sexual exploitation takes place across communities and across the country. It is a matter of growing concern, given the number of cases identified by the police.
The hon. Gentleman raises the issue of police forces working together. One feature of the National Crime Agency will be its greater ability not only to bring the agencies within the commands of the NCA together, but to work with police forces up and down the country. One aim is to get a more joined-up approach towards crime fighting at this level. That is why I am pleased that CEOP will be within the NCA because CEOP has a hugely respected reputation for its work—but I think it can do more, and being located within the NCA will enable it to do more.
Ian Paisley
I appreciate the Secretary of State’s generosity and I welcome what she has said. On the issue of tackling these issues in a joined-up way, a Northern Ireland court recently convicted people for sex trafficking—the first case in that regard. However, the sentence was incredibly low, and I have raised the matter with the Attorney-General for Northern Ireland and with our Public Prosecution Service. Will the Secretary of State ensure that, when it comes to consistency in prosecutions, we also have consistency in outcomes, so that people convicted in Northern Ireland are put away for just as long as people here on the mainland?
Mrs May
The hon. Gentleman makes a point that is specific to Northern Ireland. The legal structures within Northern Ireland—the Attorney-General for Northern Ireland and Northern Ireland prosecutors—are the right place for the hon. Gentleman to pursue his concerns about sentencing in Northern Ireland. We have been in significant discussions with the Northern Ireland Justice Minister, with the Police Service of Northern Ireland and, indeed, with the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland about the working of the National Crime Agency and how it will interact with the devolved Administrations. We have also been having discussions on that matter with others, as appropriate.
The National Crime Agency will, first and foremost, be a crime-fighting organisation. I have appointed Keith Bristow, the former chief constable of Warwickshire police, as its first director general. He will be operationally independent, but, as I said in response to the hon. Member for Manchester Central (Tony Lloyd), accountable to the Home Secretary and through the Home Secretary to Parliament.
I see the NCA as having three important characteristics. I would like to set them out, as they reflect some of the exchanges we have just had. First, it must have a positive effect on the safety of local communities by joining up the law enforcement response from the local to the national to the international. That will enable us to do rather better than has been the case so far. Secondly, it must act as the controlling hand, owning the co-ordinated intelligence picture, but working with the police and others to decide on the highest priority criminal targets, agreeing on the action necessary to tackle them and having the power to ensure that action is taken. Thirdly, it must bring its own contribution to the fight against serious, organised and complex crime. That means having its own intelligence-gathering and investigative capability, sophisticated technical skills, and a presence internationally, at the border and in cyberspace. That is how I believe the NCA will help cut crime and lock up criminals.
Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)
Will the National Crime Agency have the authority and ability to go straight into a regional police force computer and, indeed, have the authority to go in and take over an investigation if the director general feels that it should do so?
Mrs May
The important point for the NCA is to be able to work with police forces at various levels to ensure that where it is necessary for it to be involved in investigations, that can be done. The Bill will provide for the NCA to have the ability to task police forces around the country. I expect it to work on the basis of co-operation and collaboration. That is the basis on which SOCA and CEOP have operated, and it has worked very well so far. I expect it to be possible to achieve what we want in respect of the effective joining up and collaboration of forces with the NCA and its commands. Any action will be based on the identification through intelligence of the greatest harms, which will allow us to identify the greatest priorities where action needs to be taken.
For justice to be effective, it must also be swift and efficient, and it must be seen to be done by a criminal justice system that properly reflects our society. The Crime and Courts Bill will further set out our reforms of the courts and tribunals system to make it faster, more transparent, more representative of the communities it serves and more efficient in its use of resources.
Michael Ellis (Northampton North) (Con)
On the subject of efficiency and speed, the Home Secretary said in this morning’s written statement on Abu Qatada that she now has two options for the deportation of this man. One is to go through the Special Immigration Appeals Commission court and the other is to certify his further appeal as clearly unfounded. Can she say anything about whether she feels that certifying any further appeal as clearly unfounded would be effective?
Mrs May
My hon. Friend raises an important point. Many would have wished to see a conclusion to the Abu Qatada case rather more swiftly than has been possible so far. I am confident, however, that we are closer to the deportation of Abu Qatada today than we were two days ago. We need to go through the proper processes in the UK courts. My hon. Friend rightly referred to the written ministerial statement and the two available processes.
Mrs May
If I can finish providing an explanation to my hon. Friend, the right hon. Lady might not need to ask a question.
Two processes are available. A very high bar is set for the Government to go down the route of adopting the certification process. Declaring a case against deportation as unfounded is effectively the same as saying that there is no legal argument against the deportation. As I said, a very high bar has been set in relation to that, but I am, of course, taking advice on both options. I shall make the Government’s position clear in due course.
Yvette Cooper
Like the Home Secretary, I strongly welcomed yesterday’s decision by the European Court to refuse Abu Qatada’s appeal. I think that we all want him to be deported to Jordan as rapidly as possible. Of course we recognise that she will have to make complex and difficult decisions in order to ensure that she gets the next steps right, but will she now accept that she got it wrong when she told the House of Commons 12 times that the date of the deadline for Abu Qatada’s appeal was the Monday rather than the Tuesday night?
Mrs May
Obviously I welcome the fact that the European Court came out and refused Abu Qatada’s application for referral yesterday. As I told the Home Affairs Committee, I had been strongly advised that that was expected to happen because of the case that we had made.
Of course I accept that the Court has made its decision on the matter of the deadline. The Government still do not agree with that decision—[Interruption.] As I have said, we accept the Court’s decision. I made clear at every stage to the House and to the Home Affairs Committee that it was only ever going to be that panel of judges that finally decided whether the referral could be accepted. However, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office wrote to the European Court today drawing attention to inconsistencies in the guidance that it had published on how to calculate the date, and asking it to clarify the position for future purposes and provide revised guidance.
I was talking about the Crime and Courts Bill, and the matters relating to the criminal justice system that it reflects. We will ensure that fines represent real justice by making defaulting offenders, not the taxpayer, pay the cost of collection. A single county court and a single family court will be established to increase the efficiency of the civil and family court systems, and the judicial appointments process will be reformed to introduce greater transparency, flexibility and diversity. Court broadcasting will be allowed, in limited circumstances, to help to demystify the justice system. We will improve the efficiency of our immigration system by removing full appeal rights for family visit visas and removing in-country appeal rights for excluded persons, and we will strengthen our borders by extending the powers of immigration officers to tackle serious and organised immigration-related crime.
Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)
I am glad that the Home Secretary acknowledges that the unequivocal advice about the deadline was wrong.
We were told yesterday that £3.5 million in bonuses had been paid to senior officials at the UK Border Agency, including a payment of £10,000 to one individual. Does the Home Secretary agree that it is wrong to give bonuses to officials of an organisation that has been so heavily criticised, not just by the Home Affairs Committee but by Members in all parts of the House and, indeed, by the Prime Minister? May we please see an end to this bonus culture unless the UKBA is fit for purpose?
Mrs May
The right hon. Gentleman has been vociferous in his reflections on the UK Border Agency and the UK Border Force for some time. The arrangements for bonus payments in the civil service are agreed collectively. For the 2010-11 performance year, 24% of Home Office senior civil servants were awarded non-consolidated performance payments. The highest bonus award paid to a permanent staff member of the senior civil service and its agencies was £10,000, and no UKBA civil servant was awarded a bonus of £10,000 for the 2011 performance year. Bonus payments are kept under constant review. They are awarded when individual staff have performed to strict criteria, and the restraint exercised by the current Government will continue to be exercised.
Another element of the Crime and Courts Bill is relevant to an issue raised yesterday by my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon Central (Gavin Barwell) during the Prime Minister’s speech. We will introduce a new offence of driving while under the influence of drugs. Dangerous drug drivers should not be on the roads. Too many innocent people, such as 14-year-old Lillian Groves, have been killed or injured by people who have been driving under the influence of illegal drugs. We will close that loophole, and we will ensure that justice is done.
Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab)
It is proposed that cameras should be allowed in courtrooms to give the general public a better understanding of what goes on there. Will the Home Secretary allow television companies to use snippets from those films? I think the effect of that might be the reverse of what she seeks.
Mrs May
This will be done extremely carefully. There has been discussion for some time about whether cameras should be allowed in courtrooms. The ability to film will be limited, in terms of who and what can be filmed. The details of how that is arranged with television companies and the courts will be discussed during the Bill’s passage. I think we all recognise that the filming could be of significant benefit, but it needs to be done in the right way if that benefit is to be achieved.
David Wright (Telford) (Lab)
The Home Secretary has been speaking for 20 minutes. She is rightly covering the detail of the Queen’s Speech, and we will want to examine those Bills in detail. However, I am stunned by the fact that not once in 20 minutes has she mentioned the fact that thousands of police officers are marching just a few hundred yards away, taking an unprecedented level of action. They are campaigning because they are very much against 20% cuts in police budgets. Does the Home Secretary agree that we should be given more detail, and perhaps a Bill on police numbers? For instance, 5,000 front-line officers have been removed since May 2010.
Mrs May
The hon. Gentleman knows very well why it has been necessary for the Government to cut police budgets: because of the deficit that we were left by the Labour Government. As he reflects on the decision to reduce those budgets, perhaps he will also reflect on the fact that reductions of the same order are supported by his party’s Front Benchers, as they have made clear.
Improving the efficiency and effectiveness of our justice system means reviewing and reforming aspects that are not operating as they should. All Members will be aware that our current libel laws are having a detrimental effect on freedom of expression and on academic and scientific debate, and that our courts have become a magnet for libel tourists. That is why all three parties included a commitment to reform in their manifestos. We are introducing a Defamation Bill rebalancing our libel laws to offer more effective protection for freedom of speech and reasonable debate, while at the same time protecting those who have been genuinely and unjustly defamed.
The Bill has benefited from extremely detailed and helpful scrutiny in draft by a Joint Committee of both Houses, as well as having been the subject of public consultation. That has been a great advantage, enabling a wide range of views to be expressed and carefully considered in a thorough and open way. It has helped us to draw up proposals that we believe address core issues of concern where reform is needed and where legislation can make a real difference.
The Government's second Session programme contains measures to fight serious and novel crime and to strengthen justice, but we must also ensure that we keep pace with all the threats to our country. The internet revolution has benefited us all—we now communicate and interact in ways that would have been unimaginable even a few years ago—but the communications revolution also presents an opportunity for terrorists to plot attacks, for serious criminals to arrange drug deals, and for paedophiles to share illegal and abhorrent images.
For many years our police, law enforcement and security and intelligence agencies have used communications data from landline telephones and mobiles—that is, the context but not the content of communications—to catch criminals and to protect the public. Understanding whom suspects have contacted, when they did so and where they were at the time can be central to building a case, proving associations between criminals or terrorists and showing that a suspect was at the scene of a crime. Over the past decade, communications data have been used in every major Security Service counter-terrorism investigation and in 95% of all serious crime cases.
Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)
As the Home Secretary will know, I practically cheered on the Conservative Government as they began to roll back the rotten anti-civil libertarian state that Labour had left them. Why is it now business as usual? Why does what the Home Secretary is saying suggest the worst excesses of new Labour, and why is she embarking on a snoopers’ charter?
Mrs May
Perhaps if the hon. Gentleman listens further to my explanation of the Bill, he will recognise that it is not a snoopers’ charter. Why am I standing here saying that we are introducing a communications data Bill? Because over the past decade, communications data have been used in every major Security Service counter-terrorism investigation and in 95% of all serious crime cases. The Metropolitan Police Commissioner has said,
“it is an essential and irreplaceable tool for protecting the public.”
If we allow our capabilities in this area to be degraded, criminals will go free who otherwise would not. The ability to use that tool is disappearing. As more and more criminal communication moves online, the ability of the police and agencies to access those communications is being degraded.
In the past, phone companies needed, for billing purposes, to log who a person had called, who called them, when, and for how long the conversation lasted. We can see that they keep such information just by looking at our itemised phone bills. Internet service providers have a different business model. Nobody charges per e-mail, and there are no itemised bills of Facebook posts. That means that modern communications companies do not store all of the communications data the police need. The police and agencies estimate that about 25% of requests for communications data can no longer be met because the data have not been stored, compared with just 10% six years ago.
In a recent case, the Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre received intelligence of unique internet addresses from the UK that had accessed child abuse material. Because some of the communications data were not available, nine out of 41 members of an international paedophile ring could not be traced. This Government are not prepared to allow more paedophiles to go free, more serious criminals to go on committing crimes, and more terrorist plots to go undetected, so we will bring forward legislation to ensure that communications data are available in the future, just as they have been in the past.
Ian Paisley
There will need to be more analysts in order to enable this additional data to which the Government and the authorities will have access to be used in real time. Are more appropriately trained analysts being put in place?
Mrs May
The hon. Gentleman misunderstands what will be done. There will not be accessing of information in real time. There are currently some limited occasions when real-time data are used, such as in kidnapping cases, where whether the individual is discovered could be a matter of life and death. These measures are not about accessing in real time, however, and I shall describe in a little more detail what our proposal is about and what it is not about, because some myths have been going around about the Government’s plans.
Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)
Does my right hon. Friend remember that one of the options that was considered when the previous Government were in power was the creation of a warehouse of information, because, as certain information was not needed by the service providers, the Government would have had to collect it? That would be a particularly undesirable and unattractive course of action, especially when compared with simply requiring providers to hold information for a little longer.
Mrs May
My right hon. Friend is right, and we opposed that proposal, as did our Liberal Democrat colleagues. We are not in the business of creating what my right hon. Friend described as a warehouse; this proposal is not about creating some giant new Government database, with every single piece of telephone information and e-mail. It is important to bust that myth.
What the legislation will do is provide an updated framework for the collection, retention and acquisition of communications data. It will place new obligations on internet and communication service providers to retain certain data securely for up to 12 months. After 12 months, the data will be destroyed. Just as now, the communications industry will be reimbursed by Government for providing this service. The costs incurred are a fraction of those we would face for any alternative method; indeed, there is no like-for-like alternative. As now, data would be available only to designated officers on a case-by-case basis, authorised under legislation approved by Parliament, and overseen by the independent Interception of Communications Commissioner, who is a former Court of Appeal judge.
There will be no extension of the number of people who can access that data. Indeed, we have already legislated, through the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, to limit local authority access to communications data. Each acquisition of data must be authorised by a senior officer at a rank stipulated by Parliament. Access will be granted only if it is necessary and proportionate for a criminal or terrorist investigation, or to protect the public. Fishing expeditions would neither be necessary nor proportionate, and so would not be allowed.
The role of the Investigatory Powers Tribunal—a panel of senior judicial figures—will be extended to ensure that individuals have a proper avenue of complaint and independent investigation if they think the powers have been used unlawfully.
Michael Ellis
I congratulate my right hon. Friend on this measure. Does she agree that, far from being a snoopers’ charter, these provisions will modernise and bring into line procedures that are already in place in respect of more traditional forms of communication, and allow the Crown Prosecution Service to continue, and to improve, its evidence-gathering techniques in prosecuting people involved in organised crime and other serious criminality?
Alun Michael
The Home Secretary is, indeed, being very generous, but these are very important points.
I accept that the intention is as the right hon. Lady says, but there is a great danger that measures will be introduced that do not keep pace with technological change and that are not future-proofed. There is also a danger that the industry will not be engaged with properly, and that we therefore fail to address fully the ways in which modern technology functions. Will the right hon. Lady undertake to use the skills, abilities and experience of people in this House and in the industry, in order to ensure that the legislation that is designed is absolutely right?
Mrs May
The right hon. Gentleman makes the valid point—which, if I recall correctly, was similar to a point he made when I appeared before the Home Affairs Committee—that there is expertise in this House. We will look for ways to engage with those who have an interest in these matters. We do, of course, engage with industry, because, in respect of this Bill, it is important for us to be able to understand where the technology is going and the prospects for its future development.
The police and other agencies will have no new powers or capabilities to intercept and read e-mails or telephone calls. All such requests will always require a warrant signed by a Secretary of State. There will be no changes in these arrangements, and we envisage no increase in interception. Finally, to reiterate the point I made in response to the question asked by my right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith), let me make it clear that there will be no giant new Government database containing the data behind all e-mails and phone calls, which was what was proposed by the last Government.
Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)
The Home Secretary rightly said that communication service providers are required to keep data for commercial purposes such as billing, and that these new proposed measures will extend that to information for criminal cases. However, many companies will retain data for commercial purposes for up to seven years, so will my right hon. Friend confirm that they will not be required to dispose of that data within 12 months?
Mrs May
It is not the Government’s intention to require any change in the commercial model currently operated by communication service providers. The data that will be covered by the legislation—data that might not otherwise have been kept—will be required to be kept for only 12 months, however, after which time those data will have to be destroyed.
Mr Sheerman
We are entering a new and highly complex technological world. In order to deal with it, we will need a highly motivated, well-paid police force. What am I going to say to the people who have been on today’s march, and who will come to see me later on, in order to assure them that the right hon. Lady believes they should be looked after?
Mrs May
The hon. Gentleman can tell the policemen he will meet later today that this Government are ensuring, through their changes, that the police will continue to be well remunerated and have access to a very good pension, and that police forces up and down this country will be able to continue to keep people safe and fight crime as they always have done. He can also assure them that, through the measures we are taking to introduce a new police professional body and to enhance the status and professionalism of policing, we are ensuring individual police officers will have access to the training and development they will need in order to acquire the skills that we want them to have. I see an exciting future for policing as a result of the reforms this Government are putting through, and that is the message I hope everybody will be taking out to police officers on the streets.
Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that leadership from the top is vital, and that the recent allegations of poor procurement practices and the payment of large consulting fees to ex-coppers at the Association of Chief Police Officers have to be investigated fully before we look at the best structure for police leadership going forward?
The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Herbert)
indicated assent.
Mrs May
The coalition has done a great deal to defend civil liberties. We have abolished ID cards, cut back Government databases and limited pre-charge detention. We have shown that we are not going to throw away hard-won British freedoms, even when we have to take important decisions about national security, and our proposals on communications data are consistent with those values. However, I recognise that Members will want the chance properly to scrutinise our proposals, so the draft clauses will be put forward for careful pre-legislative scrutiny. Following that, proposals will be introduced at the earliest opportunity, and I hope I can count on the support of the Opposition when they are introduced.
The strengthened safeguards we will put in place for access to communications data show that at the same time as we protect national security, we can also defend civil liberties. There is no contradiction between those two aims, so our justice and security Bill will enhance national security and justice by ensuring that all relevant material can be considered in court cases, at the same time as modernising and enhancing parliamentary oversight of our security and intelligence agencies. The statutory framework for oversight of the agencies has not changed since before 9/11. During that time, the public profile and budgets of, and the operational demands on, the agencies have all increased significantly.
The Government believe the time is now right to modernise the oversight regime to ensure that it is both effective and credible, so we will modernise the Intelligence and Security Committee and extend its remit. For the first time, the Committee will be given responsibility for the wider intelligence community. It will also be given broader powers to access information, it will have additional resources to carry out its tasks, and its status will be changed to bring it closer to Parliament. We will also broaden the remit of the intelligence services commissioner. These proposals represent a considerable increase in the powers of the bodies responsible for overseeing the intelligence community.
The justice and security Bill will also introduce proposals to deal with the limitations of the current court rules which do not allow sensitive intelligence evidence to be heard in civil proceedings, even where it is of central relevance to the case. In future, any challenges brought against the Government will be able to be heard fully, with all relevant facts and information available to the court. No important information will have to be withheld for fear of jeopardising important intelligence-sharing relationships or endangering lives. Under these plans, closed material procedures will be available in the tiny number of civil cases where national security-sensitive material is centrally relevant, just as they currently are in some immigration, employment and family hearings. The final decision on whether a closed material procedure is needed will rest with the judge. As much of the case as possible will always be held in open court. This is a step forward for justice. It will mean that civil cases that are currently not heard will be heard, and that serious allegations made against the Government will be fully and independently investigated and scrutinised by the courts. It will also mean that cases the Government believe have no merit will no longer be settled for significant sums, but will be heard and judged by our courts.
The Bill also seeks to protect our vital intelligence-sharing relationships by reforming the Norwich Pharmacal jurisdiction, which allows someone fighting a case outside the UK to apply to a British court for access to intelligence information held by us, and in some cases supplied by our allies. The Norwich Pharmacal jurisdiction has been used no fewer than nine times in the last three years to seek the disclosure of secret intelligence that either belongs to the UK Government, or which our allies have shared with us. In such cases, the Government do not have the option of withdrawing from or settling these proceedings. Our inability to reassure our allies that we will uphold the confidential terms on which they share intelligence material with us has obvious and damaging consequences, so we will address the Norwich Pharmacal jurisdiction in the justice and security Bill.
The Government’s justice and home affairs proposals will ensure that serious, organised and complex crime is tackled; punishments are strengthened; justice is swifter and more efficient; freedom of speech is protected; national security is maintained; and the oversight of those who keep us safe is modernised. It is a comprehensive reform package that will enhance public safety, improve justice and cut crime. While today is only the start of the debate, these are aims with which I hope the whole House will agree.
Yvette Cooper
Government Members need to recognise that their decisions are cutting 16,000 police officers. Our approach is to say that we do not believe that 16,000 police officers should be cut. We believe that the police should have enough money to support those 16,000 officers. We should not have had to cut 5,000 police officers already from 999 units, from neighbourhood response units and from the urgent response units that we need to keep us safe and to arrive in an emergency.
Yvette Cooper
I will give way to the Home Secretary if she will tell us why she thinks that it is a good idea to have already taken more than 5,000 police out of 999 units, neighbourhood units and the traffic cops.
Mrs May
The right hon. Lady just said that the 12% cut in police budgets that she has told us in this Chamber the Opposition would support includes the pay freeze, but it does not. She has said that she would support the 12% efficiency savings outlined by Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary, but those did not include either the pay freeze—£500 million—or the overtime cuts of a further £600 million announced by the shadow Policing Minister. What Opposition Members need to understand is that what she has said about cuts to police budgets would lead to cuts in police officer numbers and that they should not say anything other than that when they talk to the police.
Yvette Cooper
We heard nothing then to defend the 5,000 officers being cut from 999 response units, from neighbourhood policing units and from emergency response units across the country. The Home Secretary is dealing in fantasy figures. She needs to think about what she has just said. If the figures she has just used were correct, no police officers would be going—no front-line staff would be being cut—everything would be hunky-dory and she would be able to do it all through the pay freeze and through the back-office cuts that she has proposed. But that is not what is happening. Instead, 16,000 police officers are going, from every corner of the country. They are being taken from the very front-line services we need. Time and again the Government told us that the front line would be protected and would not be hit, but that is not happening. She is out of touch. The Prime Minister told us:
“We won’t do anything that will reduce the amount of visible policing on our streets.”
But 5,000 police officers have gone already, and many thousands more are to go.
Yvette Cooper
The hon. Gentleman knows that that figure does not actually reflect what happens in police forces across the country. Barely an hour ago, I spoke to police officers who told me that they are now having to deal with more bureaucracy, not less. They have to do all their own recording of crime and all their own collecting of statements, which used to be done by civilian support staff. Those police officers told me categorically that they are now spending less time out on the beat and having to deal with more bureaucracy than they were before. The police are becoming less visible, not more visible, as a result of this Government’s decisions.
What then does the Queen’s Speech have to offer to cut crime or to improve public safety? The answer is: not much. The previous Queen’s Speech was bad enough: 17,000 suspected rapists were taken off the DNA database; 20% cuts were made in policing at the same time as £100 million could be found for elected police commissioners; counter-terrorism powers were watered down; and getting CCTV was made tougher. So what do the Government have to offer this time to make good the damage? The answer is: cameras in courts. I guess they had to put them somewhere, now that they are taking them away from the town centres and the housing estates.
The Home Secretary did promise stronger oversight of the intelligence and security agencies. We will support that, and I hope that she goes far enough. She also said that she wants more closed material procedures—the devil will be in the detail on that. There is a problem with foreign intelligence, and I agree with her that there is a problem with the Norwich Pharmacal jurisdiction. The proposals that she set out in the Green Paper were not justified and went too far. I recognise from her remarks today that she has made some changes to those positions, but we will need to see the detail, reflect and give the matter consideration. She also talked about extending communication surveillance. Again, we will await the detail. Everyone wants the police to be able to keep up with new technology in the fight against terrorism, but no one wants the police or security agencies browsing personal e-mails or Facebook pages at will. I hope that we can have cross-party discussions on this. The Home Secretary will know that the practice of previous Home Secretaries has been to provide extensive briefing for the Opposition and for Select Committees, so we will wait to see what detail she is able to provide.
Mrs May
I am grateful to the right hon. Lady for giving way again. May I please press her in particular on the point about closed material proceedings? When the Green Paper proposals were announced in this House, the Opposition made it clear that they supported closed material proceedings and recognised the need to protect certain material. Is she now suggesting that the Opposition’s position has changed?
Yvette Cooper
As the Home Secretary will know, we have said that the scope of the Green Paper was too wide. We recognise that there is a problem for the security agencies with regard to how civil claims are made and how material needs to be considered. However, proper safeguards need to be in place, as we have said. She also knows, as I have said this to her, that I am very willing to have further cross-party discussions with her about the detail. We have not yet seen what amendments she may have made to the Green Paper proposals and we will wait to see them and scrutinise them in detail. It is important that she should do that. On communications surveillance—I do not know whether she heard my points earlier, as she was conferring with her Front-Bench colleagues—it has been normal practice in the past for Home Secretaries to provide extensive briefing for the Opposition and the Select Committees. We will wait for that briefing and consider and scrutinise the detail as it is proposed.
The Home Secretary has also proposed stronger community sentences. That sounds good, although we gather that the Bill will be published and debated in the House of Lords without any clauses on community sentences. We should also consider what is missing. There is nothing on equal marriage—not even a draft Bill—even though, as Minister for Women and Equalities, she made it clear that she was consulting not on whether but on how to introduce the changes. There is nothing on violence against women and nothing on antisocial behaviour, even though she promised more than two years ago that new action would be taken. There is nothing on gangs, even though after the riots the Government told us that that was their big priority and even though we know that gang injunctions need to be improved. There is nothing on problem families, even though the Government told us in the autumn that they were the priority, and there is nothing to protect core public policing or to stop neighbourhood patrols being contracted out to private companies such as G4S or KBR as the cuts bite.
Abu Qatada
Baroness May of Maidenhead Excerpts(12 years, 7 months ago)
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The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
Yesterday, the panel of the Grand Chamber of the European Court of Human Rights met and rejected Abu Qatada’s request for a referral of the Court’s 17 January judgment to the Grand Chamber.
This decision means that the rule 39 injunction preventing Qatada’s deportation has now been lifted, and our deportation action against him—through the UK’s courts—can now resume. As I told Parliament in my oral statement on 17 April, the assurances and information we have received from the Jordanian authorities mean that we can be confident that Qatada will be deported within the law, although the process could still take many months.
There are now two routes open to us. The first is to certify his appeal as clearly unfounded. This would prevent him having a Special Immigration Appeals Commission (SIAC) appeal before deportation. The bar for certification is set very high. It would apply only when an immigration appeal is bound to fail, and it is a decision which could be challenged by way of judicial review.
The alternative, if the case is not certified, is that Qatada may appeal my refusal to revoke his deportation order, resulting in a further hearing before SIAC with the potential for further appeals on points of law domestically and to the ECHR.
I am taking legal advice on these options and will make a decision shortly.
The panel of five judges also found that Qatada’s application was in time. We disagree with that finding. We will write to the Court reiterating our understanding of the deadlines for seeking referrals to the Grand Chamber. We will also request that the Court publishes clear guidance on this timing point for future cases.
Asylum and Migration Fund and Internal Security Fund (Police)
Baroness May of Maidenhead Excerpts(12 years, 8 months ago)
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The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
I wish to inform the House that the Government have opted in to the proposal for a regulation of the European Parliament and of the Council establishing the asylum and migration fund (AMF), and the horizontal regulation laying down the general provisions for this fund for the period 2014 to 2020. The decision has been made not to opt in to the internal security fund (police) regulation (ISF police) at this time.
The objectives of the AMF, under the Freedom, Security and Justice heading of the EU budget, is to contribute to an effective management of migration flows in the Union drawing together the capacity building process developed within the current EU migration funds and extending these to cover some aspects of external migration policy under the framework of the EU global approach to migration.
The UK has benefited from participation in predecessor EU funding programmes, in particular in relation to EU migration funding for returns programmes, resettlement projects and community integration projects. The current EU migration funds partly finance our charter flight programmes and have enabled the UK to expand the range of destinations and programme parameters. The UK also has a well established resettlement programme due to the co-financing from the current EU migration funding streams. Without this funding UKBA would not be able to continue the scale of resettlement activity currently undertaken. Furthermore, the current European fund for the integration of third country nationals has become an important source of funding for third country nationals seeking to integrate into British society.
The ISF (police) regulation aims to establish the instrument for financial support for police co-operation, preventing and combating crime and crisis management. The decision not to opt in to the ISF (police) was driven by the substance of the proposal as it currently stands, coupled with the overall need for budgetary constraint in this time of fiscal austerity. The UK sees value in the ISF (police) fund supporting practical action on police co-operation and internal security. However, we have ongoing concerns about the budgetary elements of the programme, in particular given the obligations that will arise from the arrangements for shared management. We need to be absolutely sure that the benefits we will secure from the programme outweigh the cost of participation. We will consider whether to apply to opt in post adoption when the financial commitments win be known.
The horizontal regulation establishes the management procedures for both funds. In concluding that it is in our interests to opt in to the AMF it was therefore necessary to opt in to this measure.
All the proposals remain under negotiation.
Abu Qatada
Baroness May of Maidenhead Excerpts(12 years, 8 months ago)
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Urgent Questions are proposed each morning by backbench MPs, and up to two may be selected each day by the Speaker. Chosen Urgent Questions are announced 30 minutes before Parliament sits each day.
Each Urgent Question requires a Government Minister to give a response on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) (Lab)
(Urgent Question): To ask the Home Secretary if she will make a statement on the deportation of Abu Qatada.
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
Yesterday, the European Court of Human Rights informed the Government that, late on Tuesday evening, Abu Qatada applied for a referral of the judgment in his case to the Court’s Grand Chamber. He did so on the grounds that he would be at risk of torture if he returned to Jordan. The British courts and the European Court have found that, because of the assurances we have received from the Jordanian Government, there is no such risk.
The Government are clear that Qatada has no right to refer the case to the Grand Chamber of the European Court of Human Rights, since the three-month deadline to do so lapsed at midnight on Monday. Article 43 of the European convention on human rights explains that a request for referral to the Grand Chamber must be made:
“Within a period of three months from the date of the judgement of the Chamber”.
The letter that communicated the European Court’s judgement, dated 17 January, confirmed that, saying that
“any request for the referral of this judgement to the Grand Chamber must be duly reasoned and reach the Registry within three months of today’s date.”
Therefore, the deadline was midnight, Monday 16 April.
Because the European Court has no automatic mechanism to rule out an application for a referral based on the deadline, Qatada’s application will be considered by a panel of five judges from the Grand Chamber. They will take into account the deadline, as set out in article 43 of the convention, as part of their consideration. The Government have written to the European Court to make clear our case that the application should be rejected because it is out of time.
The Government believe that the case should be heard instead in the Special Immigration Appeals Commission court, as I outlined in the House of Commons on Tuesday. However, until the panel of the Grand Chamber makes its decision, a Rule 39 injunction preventing the deportation of Abu Qatada remains in place. That means that the deportation process and any potential SIAC appeal is put on hold, but we will resume the process as soon as the injunction is lifted. In the meantime, we will continue to build our case, based on the assurances and information we have received from the Jordanian Government. Abu Qatada remains in detention, and the Government will resist vigorously any application he might make to be released on bail.
As I said in the House of Commons on Tuesday, despite the progress we have made, the process of deporting Qatada is likely to take many months. The fact that he is trying to delay that process by applying for a referral to the Grand Chamber after the deadline has passed, and after he has heard our case in SIAC, is evidence of the strength of our arguments, the weakness of his, and the likelihood of our eventual success in removing him from Britain for good.
Yvette Cooper
On Tuesday, the Home Secretary told us that the deportation of Abu Qatada was under way; on Wednesday, it stopped. On Tuesday, she told us there would be no appeal to the Grand Chamber; on Wednesday, an appeal was under way. Yesterday, the Home Office said the appeal deadline was Monday night, but European Court officials said it was Tuesday night. So on the Tuesday night deadline, while Abu Qatada was appealing to European Court judges, the Home Secretary, who thought the deadline was Monday night, was partying with “X Factor” judges. [Interruption.] When the Home Secretary is accused of not knowing what day of the week it is, confusion and chaos have turned into farce. [Interruption.]
Yvette Cooper
This farce has serious consequences: additional delays, a greater risk that Abu Qatada will be put out on bail and a risk he will sue the Government. Did the Home Office get specific assurances from the European Court that the deadline was Monday night? If so, will it publish them? If not, why not? Why did it not pick up the phone to sort it out? The Home Office was told by journalists on Monday, nearly 24 hours before Abu Qatada was arrested, that European Court officials were saying that the deadline was Tuesday. Did it do anything about it?
I hope that the Home Secretary’s interpretation is right, but at best there is uncertainty, and several eminent lawyers now say that they agree with the European Court. So why take the risk? What was the harm in waiting until Wednesday? Why create a legal loophole for Abu Qatada’s lawyers to exploit? We all want Abu Qatada deported as soon as possible, under the rule of law, and kept off the streets in the meantime, but both those things are now less likely because of her actions. On Tuesday, I warned that there was a troubling level of confusion around this case, but even I did not imagine that the confusion was this great. When will she sort this out?
Mr Speaker
Order. Let us lower the temperature. I said that the shadow Home Secretary must be heard, and precisely the same principle applies to the Home Secretary. Let us hear what she has to say. [Interruption.] Order. Then I will allow a full opportunity, if necessary, for questions to follow.
Mrs May
Thank you, Mr Speaker. Let me repeat what I said in my first answer. We have always been clear that despite the progress we have made, the process of deporting Abu Qatada is likely to take many months. It should hardly come as a surprise to anybody that he intended to apply delaying tactics—[Interruption.] I repeat that it should hardly come as a surprise to anybody that Abu Qatada has chosen to use delaying tactics. After all, he has been doing this since 2001. The fact that he applied to the Grand Chamber for referral after the deadline had passed and after he had heard our case in SIAC shows the strength of our arguments and of our work in putting together assurances from the Grand Chamber.
I answered the question about dates in my first answer, but I will return to the matter because the right hon. Lady referred to it again. Article 43 of the convention makes it clear that a request for referral to the Grand Chamber must be made
“Within a period of three months from the date of the judgment of the Chamber”.
I shall read out the European Court’s own guidance:
“the period of three months within which referral may be requested starts to run on the date of the delivery of the judgment, irrespective of whether the party concerned may have learned about it at a later stage. It expires three calendar months later and is not interrupted by bank holidays or periods of judicial recess. The request for referral should reach the Registry of the Court before the expiry of the above-mentioned period.”
We are talking about a simple mathematical question. The European Court’s judgment was on 17 January. The period of three months within which we were allowed to refer ended at midnight on 16 April. The right hon. Lady asked why we did not just call the European Court and check. Of course, the Government have been in contact with the Court throughout this period, and it was always clear that we were working to the Monday deadline.
The shadow Home Secretary quoted a source in the European Court, but if she had listened to what I said in my first answer, she would know that the only people at the European Court who can adjudicate on this matter are the judges on the panel of the Grand Chamber. Article 43 is very clear. She may want to listen to unofficial sources, but I suggest that she reads the text of the convention.
The shadow Home Secretary also chose to attack me today for acting too quickly in this matter. On Tuesday she attacked me for acting too slowly in this matter. She is all over the place. The truth is that because of the work that we have done, we have the assurances and information that we need from the Jordanian Government to comply with the January ruling of the European Court. Once we can get the case back to the British courts, we will resume that process, so that we can put Abu Qatada on a plane and get him out of our country for good. That is something that the shadow Home Secretary should support.
Finally, perhaps the shadow Home Secretary can answer the question that was not answered on Tuesday. While we are talking about deportation and extradition, why is the Labour party campaigning to stop the extradition of a known terror suspect to the United States?
Sir Peter Tapsell (Louth and Horncastle) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that the conclusion of the great majority of people in this country who have been listening to this argument over the months is that Britain should withdraw its legal processes from the jurisdiction of the European Court?
Mrs May
What I agree with is that we should make every effort to reform the European Court, which is precisely what is being done today at the Brighton conference, and what will be done over the next two days, by my right hon. and learned Friends the Attorney-General and the shadow Justice Secretary.
Mr David Blunkett (Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough) (Lab)
I am having a greater struggle today to be magnanimous than I had on Tuesday. Although the Home Secretary might accept that it is no surprise that Abu Qatada will take any measure to make a monkey out of the Home Secretary and the Home Office, was it a surprise to her to learn that a question of ambiguity about the date was raised with the Home Office on Monday? Specifically, was she told and what did she do about it?
Mrs May
I have made it clear that the deadline was on Monday 16 April. That is the view that we have put to the European Court. As I have also said in my earlier responses, of course the Government were talking to the European Court throughout the three months, and we were doing so on the basis that the deadline was 16 April.
Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD)
Does the Home Secretary agree not only that the most recent development in the Abu Qatada case underlines the absolute necessity of securing reforms at Brighton to curtail the number of minor cases going to the Court and to improve its efficiency, but that the Court’s position as the defender of fundamental human rights for 800 million people must stand?
Mrs May
The Government have been absolutely clear in our view of the importance of maintaining human rights and, obviously, of having appropriate mechanisms to ensure that that is done. My right hon. Friend is right that we need to reform the European Court. One of the key issues that we have taken up as a Government is the efficiency of the Court. Another issue that we are taking up is subsidiarity and the relationship between decisions taken by national courts and the work of the European Court.
Alan Johnson (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) (Lab)
In my experience as Home Secretary, the louder the cheers from behind, the deeper the mire the Home Secretary was in. [Laughter.] In my view, any ambiguity about the date should have meant that the announcement was made on Wednesday, rather than Tuesday. If the Home Secretary is right about her dates, I will be very pleased about that. If she is wrong, will she accept that she must take responsibility, not one of her officials?
Mrs May
I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for sharing with us his experience of when he was Home Secretary. The Government are clear about when the deadline was, but as I also made clear earlier, this is a judgment that will be made by the panel of the Grand Chamber, which is the final arbiter of what the deadline was. Indeed, it is open to the judges on the Grand Chamber to decide that even if the deadline has been passed, they will accept a referral under their discretion. They will decide whether they accept that.
The right hon. Gentleman’s final point is absolutely valid. I of course take responsibility for decisions that I have taken. This is not a question of what officials have done; I take full responsibility.
Mr James Clappison (Hertsmere) (Con)
Should we not put this into some sort of context? Mr Abu Qatada was first arrested in 2002, and was then released and re-arrested on two separate occasions over an eight-year period. His case has been the subject of multiple appeals to courts in this country under the European convention on human rights, which the previous Government incorporated into British law in 1998, amidst great fanfare, and which is very much at the root of these problems.
Mrs May
My hon. Friend is right to bring us back to the core issue at stake. The fact is that, for the past 11 years, this country has been trying to deport Abu Qatada to Jordan. As far as I, the Government, the British public and, I hope, the whole House are concerned, that is what should happen to him. On Tuesday, when the Government had their first opportunity to take action to resume that deportation, that is exactly what we did.
Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)
Nobody doubts the efforts that the Home Secretary has made on this issue. I think that, if she had half a chance, she would like to be handcuffed to Abu Qatada on a plane to Jordan in order to deposit him in Amman. What concerns me, however, is the fact that a north London firm of legal aid solicitors has been able to outwit the very expensive silks of the Home Office. She mentioned article 43. If she looks at the cases of Praha v. the Czech Republic and Otto v. Germany, she will see that the time limit begins the next day. I am also worried about the 15 other cases that she referred to on Tuesday. Will she look at those cases and ensure that proper legal advice has been taken and that deadlines have been met? When she comes before the Select Committee next Tuesday, it would be good if she could give us the answers to those questions.
Mrs May
I repeat to the right hon. Gentleman what I said in response to an earlier question. The arbiters of whether a request for a referral put in by Abu Qatada should be accepted—whether in response to a deadline or, as we believe, outside the deadline—or whether discretion should be applied to accept it outside the deadline are not a north London firm of lawyers but the five judges who will be sitting on the panel of the Grand Chamber of the European Court.
Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con)
The Home Secretary is trying her best—there is no question about that—but unfortunately it is not working. The root causes of this problem are the questions of what the rule of law is, whose rule of law is applicable and who interprets it. Those questions should be decided in this House. We should withdraw from the European convention, repeal the Human Rights Act 1998 and get the matter straight because the people of this country demand it.
Mrs May
I thank my hon. Friend for his question, which I think is fairly similar to previous questions that he has asked me on this issue. Let me assure him that I take this issue extremely seriously and I am absolutely clear that we want to deport Abu Qatada. However, I also made it absolutely clear in the House earlier this week that the Government must operate within the rule of law, and that a number of legal avenues would be available to Abu Qatada. It is no surprise that he is using delaying tactics to try to delay his deportation from this country. It is right to say that we need to reform the European Court of Human Rights, and that is exactly the work that is being undertaken by my right hon. and learned Friends the Justice Secretary—I think I inadvertently referred to him earlier as the shadow Justice Secretary; I beg his pardon—and the Attorney-General.
Mr Speaker
Speaking from personal experience, repeat questions are not an entirely novel phenomenon in the House of Commons.
Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab)
I am beginning to think that the Home Secretary has form here. She has previously accused the European Court of Human Rights of rejecting a deportation because someone had a cat, and she is giving assurances today despite the cases of Otto and Praha, which make it quite clear that she has wrongly interpreted the deadline. My suspicion is that she is playing with this very serious case in order to whip up hostility to the European Court of Human Rights, which is an important protector of human rights in Britain.
Mrs May
I think that the hon. Lady will be able to tell from some of the comments that have been made today that there is no need to whip up feeling about the European Court of Human Rights. May I correct her on two points that she made in her question? First, she said that I had made a claim about the European Court of Human Rights in a deportation case relating to a cat; I did not. That concerned a case in the UK courts. She also referred to the cases of Praha and Otto, to which the right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz) referred earlier. Those two cases are not about a referral to the Grand Chamber. Perhaps she should look at them more closely.
David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)
Would the Home Secretary like to challenge Opposition Members who are now shouting their criticism to say whether they would support the abolition of the Human Rights Act 1998 and withdraw from the European convention, which has led to this mess in the first place? [Interruption.]
Mrs May
My hon. Friend tempts me down a road that I suspect it would not be wise to go down, but he had one or two sedentary responses from the Opposition. I repeat that it is the Government’s view that we should reform the European Court, and that is precisely what we are working to do.
Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab)
Does the Prime Minister know what day it is?
Mr David Evennett (Bexleyheath and Crayford) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that the British Government’s case is strong, that Abu Qatada’s case is weak and a delaying tactic, and that the British people will be appalled by the delay while the European Court investigates the case again, because they think that action should be taken now? If it is not taken, we want reform of the Court.
Mrs May
My hon. Friend is quite right. I fully appreciate that the public will be concerned by the delaying tactic that is being employed. I warned the House earlier this week—and, indeed, warned people more generally—that the process of deportation could take many months and that legal avenues were open to Abu Qatada to pursue, and that is of course what has happened. In response to my hon. Friend’s first point, the Government’s case is strong. It is educational to look at what happened on Tuesday. At the beginning of the SIAC hearing, Abu Qatada’s lawyers indicated that they were going to take the matter through the UK courts. It was only after they heard our case and the judgment that was brought down on Abu Qatada by Justice Mitting that they decided to attempt this referral.
Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab)
Journalists are reporting today that they have checked with the European Court, and that it was the Court’s opinion that the three-month period started to be measured from the day after the domestic decision, which was the 17th. That was reported to the Home Office. Was it brought to the attention of the Secretary of State? Did her officials ever put before her the decision whether to go forward on 17 April or 18 April? This is an important question: did her officials ever give her the option of delaying for 24 hours in order to be safe according to the European Court’s position?
Mrs May
The position of the Government has always been absolutely clear—[Hon. Members: “Answer!”] The position that we have been working on is that the deadline was Monday 16 April. The hon. Gentleman’s question is based on an incorrect premise, and if he had listened to the answers that I gave earlier, he would realise that. His claim is that, had the action been delayed by a day, no referral could have been made by Abu Qatada. I have made it clear, however, that it is a matter for the discretion of the panel of judges of the Grand Chamber whether to accept a referral within the deadline or outside it.
Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con)
I offer the Home Secretary my support, but is it not the case that the reform of the European Court of Human Rights could take many years? Is it not time that we had a Supreme Court that really was supreme, and should we not introduce a British Bill of Rights sooner rather than later?
Mrs May
As my hon. Friend will know, the Government have set up a commission to look at a British Bill of Rights, which will report in due course. The Government will look at the commission’s recommendations. As I said earlier in my response to my right hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake), the reforms to the European Court that we are considering include the question of subsidiarity. It is greatly to the credit of my fellow Ministers who have been working on this that we have been able to get as far as we have, and I have every expectation of positive decisions coming out of the conference that is taking place in Brighton.
Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab)
Adding incompetent and dangerous advice on petrol and jerry cans a couple of weeks ago to this episode, our constituents are beginning to wonder whether this Government could organise a convivial social evening in the nearest brewery. Will the Home Secretary now publish the advice—not just on the question of three months, but on when exactly the clock starts ticking to calculate those three months, which lies at the heart of this latest episode? Will she also clarify the control regime under which Abu Qatada will be kept in the meantime? Will it be tighter than her proposed terrorism prevention and investigation measures, and if it is a tighter regime, why is it appropriate for him and not for the other terrorist suspects to whom she is planning to grant the freedom of the capital city?
Mrs May
I have answered questions about the European Court, the treaty and the advice and guidance given by the European Court on the dates. On the right hon. Gentleman’s final point, Abu Qatada is in detention at the moment. If he and his lawyers apply for him to be let him out on bail, we will vigorously oppose it. It is the case, of course, that he had been on bail prior to his arrest on Tuesday. The bail conditions on which he was held were among the most stringent ever applied to anybody here in the United Kingdom. Those bail conditions were tighter than the control order regime that I know the right hon. Gentleman supported.
Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)
Further to the Home Secretary’s answer to the Father of the House, the fact is that the Brighton conference process is designed to weed out trivial cases. It would not affect a serious case like this one. If one believes in the European Court of Human Rights, that Court should deal with this case. I think we all have to be honest and the Home Secretary has to be honest about it. Is she personally prepared to argue for the supremacy of this Parliament, which would mean that we must repeal the human rights legislation and create a British Bill of Rights?
Mrs May
My hon. Friend will recall that I have made my own views on the Human Rights Act absolutely clear. The Conservative party, of course, went into the last election saying that we would bring in a Bill of Rights. The Government have established a commission to look at the whole issue of a British Bill of Rights. I suggest that my hon. Friend waits for that commission to report.
Mr Tom Harris (Glasgow South) (Lab)
Did the Home Secretary—at any time and from any quarter—receive advice to delay the re-arrest of Abu Qatada by 24 hours? That is a very simple question, demanding a yes or no answer.
Mrs May
I have made it clear that the Government’s view is that the deadline finished on 16 April. I repeat that Opposition Members who think that we would somehow be in a different position if Abu Qatada’s arrest had been delayed for 24 hours need to be careful, as the European Court is able to exercise discretion about the deadline and it could accept a referral outside that deadline.
Mr Charles Walker (Broxbourne) (Con)
The Home Secretary must not delay in getting this scumbag and his murderous mates on a plane out of this country. In so doing, will she send a metaphorical two fingers to the ECHR?
Mrs May
As I have already made clear, this case has been going on for 11 years. At the first opportunity this Government had to take action to resume the deportation of Abu Qatada, we took that action, and when the processes of the European Court are complete, we will take that action again and resume his deportation because, with the assurances we have received from the Jordanian Government, we have a strong case. Our aim, like everybody else’s, is to deport Abu Qatada.
Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)
Does the Home Secretary believe that her actions will lead to Qatada successfully suing the Government?
Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con)
Does not this whole situation clearly demonstrate why, following the Brighton conference and given our chairmanship of the European Council, we must see significant reform? If significant reform is not achieved for any reason, should we not move far more quickly to adopt a UK Bill of Rights instead of the convention?
Mrs May
As I said earlier, I believe that there is every prospect of us being able to move forward on reform of the European Court of Human Rights as a result of the work being done by the Justice Secretary and the Attorney-General. On that basis, I look forward to the outcome of the Brighton conference.
Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)
The Home Secretary is not helping her case by wriggling and wriggling and wriggling on the question put to her. Did she receive any advice on the ambiguity surrounding the 24 hours?
Mrs May
Let me say to all hon. Members who are intending to repeat this question that I have already answered it. [Hon. Members: “No you have not.”] The Government’s position is absolutely clear—the deadline was on Monday 16 April. The only arbiters, however, and the only people who can decide on the deadline and on whether to accept a referral are the judges sitting on the panel of the Grand Chamber. They will give us their determination in due course.
Patrick Mercer (Newark) (Con)
Does the Home Secretary agree that Abu Qatada and his lawyers are doing nothing more or less than attempting to belittle and thwart the British judicial system—an attempt to terrorise just as surely as is laying a bomb or firing a bullet? If so, how will this be reflected at the Brighton conference?
Mrs May
I agree with my hon. Friend that this is an attempt by Abu Qatada and his lawyers to delay the action we have taken. It is, as I said, educational— and, I believe, very significant—that Abu Qatada’s lawyers did not make a referral or attempt to make a referral until they had seen the strength of our case in SIAC on Tuesday after we had arrested him and taken him before the courts. It is, of course, essential to ensure that we continue with the deportation, and we will do so as soon as this process in the European Court is completed.
Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab)
The Home Secretary said this is a simple matter. If, then, in the days and perhaps weeks ahead, it becomes clear that the Home Secretary did have advice from officials that there was some ambiguity, will she resign?
Mrs May
It is a simple matter because the deadline was Monday 16 April and the decision will be taken by the judges in the Grand Chamber of the European Court. What is also a simple matter is the fact that it is this Government who got the assurances from Jordan that will enable us to resume the deportation of Abu Qatada. That is what we want to see and what the British public want to see.
Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con)
I wonder whether the Home Secretary would agree that the European Court of Human Rights is putting this nation in a position in which we could be perceived as a safe haven for foreign criminals who want to avoid justice from outside the EU, and that the only way to avoid that is to establish a Bill of Rights for the UK.
Mrs May
I made the Government’s position clear when I mentioned the commission on the Bill of Rights. I said here on Tuesday, and will repeat it today, that there has been concern about the ability of other European countries to deport people more quickly than we can. I have thus already initiated work to look at the processes— and the legal structures and systems—that happen in France and Italy, for example, to see whether we could learn anything from them and whether legislative changes could be made to give us the ability more quickly to deport people who are a threat to our national security.
Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab)
I listened carefully to the Home Secretary on Tuesday and I have listened to her answers today, and it is absolutely clear from her evasive answers that she did receive advice about the ambiguity of the 24 hours—yet she went ahead with the media circus of this arrest. Does she accept that people will be extremely angry if Abu Qatada now gets bail?
Mrs May
The Government will vigorously oppose any application that Abu Qatada makes for bail. We have been clear throughout that we believe he should be in detention. That is where he is today. I have been clear, and am happy to repeat, that the deadline was Monday 16 April, but that the decision as to whether his application for a referral will be accepted is for the panel of the Grand Chamber. That has been made clear by me here and by the European Court.
Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)
Would my right hon. Friend invite the Grand Chamber to consider the human rights of my constituents to live out their lives free of the sort of activities that might be carried out by Abu Qatada and the 15 other individuals awaiting deportation on similar grounds?
Mrs May
As my hon. Friend knows, we are very clear about wanting to ensure that we can deport people who are a threat to our national security, as in the case of Abu Qatada. That is why we have worked so hard with the Jordanian Government to obtain the assurances that we need, which have given us the strong case that we have: the strong case that was presented at the SIAC hearing on Tuesday and was, I believe, recognised as a strong case from the UK Government. When we have completed the process with the European Court, we will resume the deportation process. I assure my hon. Friend that I am very clear about the need to take account of the rights of British citizens, and that the duty of the Home Office, which is all about keeping people safe, is always foremost in our thoughts.
Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab)
In response to a question from the Chairman of the Home Affairs Committee, my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz), the Home Secretary said that the cases that he had cited in connection with the definition of the time limit were not relevant to this case. Will she tell us whether she relied on any case precedent in making her decision on the definition of the deadline, and, if she did not, why she did not opt for a precautionary response?
Mrs May
Of course we have looked at the definition of the deadline as used by the European Court. We have looked at the treaty definition of the deadline as used by the European Court, which I have quoted to the House, and I think that that treaty definition makes the position absolutely clear.
Nicola Blackwood (Oxford West and Abingdon) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend share my disbelief that there is no administrative mechanism at the ECHR to establish the simple question of whether an application is out of time, which means that we and the taxpayer will have to wait up to two months for the ECHR to establish that simple point before we can proceed with the deportation of Abu Qatada? Will the Government raise the matter at Brighton, and get on with this aspect of reform of the ECHR as soon as possible?
Mrs May
My hon. Friend has made an extremely valuable point. I have found that many people here in the UK consider it astonishing that there is no simple mechanism for setting a clear deadline and then striking out any applications that fall outside that deadline. What is absolutely clear is that the panel of the Grand Chamber has discretion to accept applications made outside the deadline, and to determine what that deadline was.
Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)
In view of the xenophobia and hysteria on the Tory Benches, why does the Home Secretary not have the courage to say that it is a lie that the European Court of Human Rights is in the business of trying to protect terrorists—last week’s decision contradicts that—and is it not a great advance for Europe that there is such a court in the first place?
Mrs May
We have made it clear that we are abiding by the rule of law. We have abided by the decisions made by the European Court. We now believe that we have the assurances that we need in order to be able to challenge the Court’s decision in relation to article 6, which was the ground on which it prevented the deportation of Abu Qatada. We believe that the right way of dealing with the issue of his deportation was to gain those assurances from the Jordanian Government. Obviously we will await the European Court’s decision on whether to accept the application for a referral.
Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)
Given that Abu Qatada would almost certainly have appealed against any decision by the British courts and taken that appeal all the way back to the European Court of Human Rights, does his present appeal not give Government lawyers an opportunity to seek the Court’s determination that the assurances obtained from the Jordanian Government mean that he should now be deported immediately?
Mrs May
My hon. Friend has made a valid point about the legal avenues that would be available to Abu Qatada in any case in the UK courts. The first decision that the European Court will make is a decision on whether to accept the referral—the appeal, effectively—from Abu Qatada, and it is that decision that we will expect in the coming weeks. If the Court chooses to accept the referral, it will—as I made clear to the House on Tuesday—examine the whole case that was put before it initially. The UK Government will, of course, present their arguments, as they have done previously.
Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab)
The Home Secretary’s judgment has now been called into question on two important issues: first the shambles over checks at our borders, and now this. It is therefore a question of her competence. Will she resolve that question by publishing all the advice that she received on this matter, including any advice about the ambiguity of the deadline?
Mrs May
This country has been trying to deport Abu Qatada since 2001. The Government acted on the first opportunity that they had to take the action necessary to resume the deportation, and we will resume that deportation when the processes in the European Court have been completed. Our view is very clear: we want to deport Abu Qatada.
Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)
The good folk of Brigg and Goole are not xenophobes for believing that judges in this country should decide who is innocent and who is guilty. The Home Secretary mentioned the Brighton conference in her statement. Can she assure me that she and the Lord Chancellor will listen to the people of Brigg and Goole today and not to the comments of Lord McNally, who, apparently, is a Liberal Democrat and a Minister who described the debate on this matter as “unreasonable”?
Mrs May
My hon. Friend is always assiduous in bringing the views of his constituents to the House, and comments that I have heard from some other Members suggest that their own constituents share those views.
The Brighton conference is considering reform of the European Court, and I think that that is important. I also think it important to remember that it is this Government who took the action that was necessary to bring about reform of the Court, something that was never done by the Labour party.
Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)
If we are worried about the possibility that this apparent debacle offers some propaganda value to Abu Qatada’s supporters, should we not also be wary of offering a parliamentary spectacle which compounds that propaganda value through some of the dangerous messages that are being sent here?
Mrs May
I think it absolutely right for Parliament to have the opportunity to ask questions, and to raise the issues that Members wish to raise, in response to this case. As I said on Tuesday and have said again today, it was always going to be the case that various legal avenues would be open to Abu Qatada and his lawyers which they could pursue in an attempt to delay his deportation, and that is exactly what they are trying to do. The fact that they are using those delaying tactics comes as no surprise to anyone. The Government are clear about the deadline, and clear about our case and the strength of the assurances that we have received.
Stephen Phillips (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)
Given some of the opportunistic nonsense that we have heard from Opposition Members, may I assure my right hon. Friend that she has the full support of Government Members? She will know—[Interruption.]
Stephen Phillips
My right hon. Friend will know that the European Court of Human Rights’ own practice direction on rule 39 indicates that rule 39 measures should be granted only in exceptional circumstances. Will she discuss with the Attorney-General whether it is now open to the Government to apply for removal of the rule 39 injunction, and indeed whether it is still in place, given the expiry of the time limit, which is so obvious to every Member on the Government Benches?
Mrs May
My hon. and learned Friend has raised an important point. I can tell him that in indicating that it has received an application for referral that will be put before the panel of the Grand Chamber for consideration, the European Court has made it clear to the UK Government that the rule 39 injunction still applies.
Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op)
It is very disappointing that we are not going to receive a clear answer from the Home Secretary about what advice she received from her officials. We do know, however, that the BBC informed the Home Office on Monday that there was some uncertainty about the deadline. On that basis, why did the Home Secretary not wait for an extra 24 hours before making her announcement?
Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)
Does the Home Secretary agree that claiming that 17 April is within three months of 17 January is rather like claiming that new year’s day is on 2 January?
Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)
When the Home Secretary came to the House on Tuesday, was she aware that there was a different opinion from hers about the deadline?
Mrs May
As has been made clear to the House, the BBC was making claims about the deadline at that time. The Government have been absolutely clear that the deadline was 16 April. As I have tried to explain to the House today, the Government have also been absolutely clear that the decision as to what the deadline was and whether an application for referral can be accepted—and whether it is within the deadline or whether it can be accepted outside the deadline at the discretion of the European Court—is a matter only for the panel of the Grand Chamber of the European Court. It is the arbiter of this—nobody else.
Mr Brian Binley (Northampton South) (Con)
I welcome the Home Secretary’s support for a Bill of Rights, but I am sure that my right hon. Friend recognises that the British people are quickly losing patience with the European Court of Human Rights. Will she therefore urge the Cabinet to ensure that a Bill of Rights is included in the Queen’s Speech, so that the British people can be reassured on this matter very quickly indeed?
Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab)
Can the Home Secretary envisage Britain withdrawing from the treaty setting up the European convention on human rights?
Mrs May
I thought that, in response to various answers, I had explained what I think is the right approach for the Government to take, which is for us to reform the European Court of Human Rights to deal with the concerns that have been raised about the way the European Court operates, and that is exactly the work the Government are undertaking.
Michael Ellis (Northampton North) (Con)
Does the Home Secretary agree that we have been seeing raw and naked opportunism from the Labour Benches today? Is it not the case that the operative words of article 43 are that the reasons for the judgment being appealed must
“reach the Registry within three months”
of the date, which was 17 January, so Monday 16 April was within three months, whereas Tuesday 17 April would have been three months, not within three months? Therefore, the Home Secretary is right, and Opposition Members who have suggested otherwise have been siding with Abu Qatada’s lawyers and supporting their arguments.
Mrs May
My hon. Friend helpfully clarifies again the definition of the deadline; it was, indeed, Monday 16 April. This is a very simple matter: this Government want to deport Abu Qatada. We have taken action to do that, and we will resume it when it is once again possible, but I was clear that it may take many months to do that, and there are various legal avenues available to Abu Qatada.
Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)
It seems to me that the raw and naked opportunism came from the Home Secretary seeking good headlines from announcing this prematurely. She has admitted that she knew of the BBC advice. Will she confirm whether she had advice from her officials that there was doubt about the deadline—yes or no?
Mrs May
That is interesting, as we have now learned that the Opposition’s view is that the best advice to Government should always come from the BBC. I can only assume that that is what they did when in government. What this Government did on Tuesday was take, at the first opportunity, the action to resume the deportation of Abu Qatada. After 11 years, we want to take the action that will see Abu Qatada deported. That is what we started to do on Tuesday, and it is what we will do again when it is open to us.
Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con)
I would hope that the whole House agrees that it is utterly unacceptable that it has taken 11 years and counting to remove this man from the United Kingdom. What will the Government do to ensure that future cases are dealt with much more speedily, and that the rights of millions of our constituents to live in peace are not trumped by the rights of men like Abu Qatada?
Mrs May
My hon. Friend raises a very important point. There are two things the Government can do: first, the work we are doing to reform the European Court, to which I have referred on a number of occasions today; secondly, the work I have initiated to look at why it appears that other countries can sometimes deport individuals more quickly than we can. That work has started, and we will be looking to see whether any sensible legislative changes are open to us in order to enable the UK to deport such people more quickly.
Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)
This is not a simple question of mathematics, as the Home Secretary has suggested. It looks increasingly possible that her Department got it wrong. We understand what the Government’s view is on the advice she has received, but in coming to that view, did she receive any advice from any officials—albeit, perhaps, a minority opinion—that there was some ambiguity in respect of this date?
Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend accept that there is a great deal of legal debate as to whether an injunction based on a rule 39 action is enforceable? What is the worst thing that could happen if we ignored this injunction?
Mrs May
I dealt with this issue in answer to questions raised with me on Tuesday. Of course, I believe that the Government should operate within the rule of law. A rule 39 injunction has, indeed, been placed on the deportation of Abu Qatada, as it was during the period following the judgment of 17 January. As I am sure my hon. Friend will be aware, if the Government were to take action to break that injunction, not only would that be contrary to that legal judgment made by the European Court, but the first step would be to ask for an injunction here in the UK courts. If the Government were to act against that injunction, not only Ministers, but anybody involved, would be acting illegally, and I do not think that is right.
John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op)
May I suggest that if the Home Secretary wants to avoid being asked the same question again and again, she might answer it at the first time of asking? She has repeatedly said she is clear that the deadline was 16 April. She has not said, however, whether she was made aware that there could be uncertainty about that in the European Court. Was she made aware of that?
Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con)
Is it not the case that this vile preacher of hate would have made such an application and abused the European Court of Human Rights to seek delay regardless of the date?
Mrs May
Exactly. The point is that, as I said earlier, this comes as no surprise, as I think everybody would expect Abu Qatada and his lawyers to use whatever delaying tactics they can. As I have made absolutely clear, it is within the discretion of the panel of the Grand Chamber of the European Court to decide to accept a referral that is outside the deadline, so it is little wonder that Abu Qatada and his lawyers have made this attempt at a referral.
Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)
For the avoidance of doubt, will the Home Secretary confirm what is becoming increasingly clear: that she did receive advice from officials that there was ambiguity about the deadline? Also, as we are discussing important legal matters, why is the Attorney-General not present?
Mr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con)
There is palpable frustration among all Members about the length of time this case has taken, but we have repeatedly seen such cases ever since the European Court of Human Rights was incorporated into British law. Is it not time that the Government acknowledged the frustration of the British people, who want a Bill of Rights, and want it now?
Mrs May
As I have said, the Government have set up a process in relation to the Bill of Rights. I also gently remind my right hon. and hon. Friends that people in the United Kingdom had access to the European Court of Human Rights before the Human Rights Act; the situation is simply that the relationship has changed.
Mr Ian Davidson (Glasgow South West) (Lab/Co-op)
Are this Government funding this man’s interminable appeals by providing unlimited legal aid?
Brandon Lewis (Great Yarmouth) (Con)
Given that the Qatada case goes back through almost a decade under the previous Government, is my right hon. Friend more surprised by the Labour party’s audacity earlier in the week in complaining about delay or by its audacity today in complaining that she has acted too quickly?
Mrs May
I thank my hon. Friend for his question. The Opposition really do need to get their act straight on whether they think we have acted too quickly or too slowly. They are trying to give two different messages this week. What is important is that the Government took the first opportunity to act to resume the deportation of Abu Qatada, and will indeed do so again.
Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab)
We know that the Home Secretary was warned about the uncertainty surrounding the deadline. We also know—or expect, at least—that she would have received advice from the Attorney-General. So can she explain why she did not simply wait 24 hours before rushing to the Dispatch Box to make her announcement?
David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)
The Home Secretary may have seen today’s press reports saying that the appeal was launched only after a reminder was sent by officials of the Court to Abu Qatada’s lawyers. If that is the case, does it not bring into question the independence of the officials and of the Court itself?
Mrs May
What I do know is that the application for a referral by Abu Qatada’s lawyers was made only a matter of hours after they had heard the strength of our case in SIAC. At the beginning of that case in SIAC, they had clearly been intending to take the case through the UK courts. It was only when they heard the strength of our case—it shows the strength of our case—that they went away to see whether there was any other delaying tactic they could use, and they have used the delaying tactic.
Simon Danczuk (Rochdale) (Lab)
What is the Home Secretary’s best estimate now of when this gentleman will be sent back?
Mrs May
As the hon. Gentleman might have noticed on Tuesday, were he in the Chamber then, I have not made any estimate of when the gentleman concerned will be sent back to Jordan. I am absolutely clear—I made it clear on Tuesday and have repeated it today—that this could take many months, because various legal avenues are available to Abu Qatada and it would be no surprise if he chose to try to use them.
James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) (Con)
I commend the Home Secretary’s efforts in this case, but does she agree that it is intolerable to my constituents that a perception has been created that she is unable to act in what they perceive to be their national interest?
Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) (Con)
Will my right hon. Friend reassure me and my constituents that the Government will continue to do everything they can to get rid of this known terrorist? Will she remind the European Court and the panel of judges that they have a duty to defend my constituents’ human right to live in safety in their own country?
Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)
No one will be surprised that Abu Qatada is, once again, attempting to delay his deportation to face justice in Jordan. What estimate has my right hon. Friend been given of the time it will take before the European Court of Human Rights determines whether this case is to be heard? How long will it take before this case is taken, if the Court accepts it?
Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that greatly delayed justice is no justice at all, and that until the European Court stops wanting to interfere in matters that should be dealt with in a national court and until the great backlog of cases is reduced, the calls for withdrawal from the Court altogether will increase?
Mrs May
My hon. Friend expresses concerns that I know have been expressed not only by Government Members in this House, but elsewhere, by members of the public. That is why it is so important that the Government have taken up the work being done to reform the European Court of Human Rights, particularly on its efficiency, but also on the issue of subsidiarity. Indeed, as I say, it is what my right hon. and learned Friends are pursuing, as we speak, at the Brighton conference.
Kris Hopkins (Keighley) (Con)
I suggest to the Home Secretary that, after many, many years, we can take comfort from the fact that the Labour party has finally recognised the seriousness of the need to kick this terrorist out of the country. Does she agree that if Labour had applied the same urgency and enthusiasm when in government, this country would be a safer place today?
Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that Abu Qatada’s lawyers have made this reference to the European Court only after hearing the exceptionally strong Government case showing that he has a very weak case against deportation? Does she agree that instead of hurling cheap shots, those in this House should be united in their determination that Abu Qatada should be deported from this country as quickly as possible?
Mrs May
My hon. Friend makes an important point. This House should indeed be united in its determination to see Abu Qatada deported. I hope that it will also be united in welcoming the work that has been done by this Government to achieve the assurances that mean that we have got such a strong case for deporting him.
Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that a major flaw in the European Court is that a significant number of the judges come from countries with very questionable human rights records? Does she also agree that it is time for the European Court not to be a charter for criminals, but to be a convention for human rights?
Mrs May
The role of the Court is obviously in upholding the European convention on human rights. It is important that we seek to ensure that the cases that the Court is taking are indeed appropriate to be heard by that Court, and of course that is part of the work that my right hon. and learned Friends are undertaking.
Mr Speaker
I am grateful to the Home Secretary and to all 59 Members who were able to question her on this important matter.
Abu Qatada
Baroness May of Maidenhead Excerpts(12 years, 8 months ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
Yesterday, the European Court of Human Rights informed the Government that late on Tuesday evening, Abu Qatada applied for a referral of the judgment in his case to the Court’s Grand Chamber. He did so on the grounds that he would be at risk of torture if he returned to Jordan. The British courts and the European Court itself have already found that, because of the assurances we have received from the Jordanian Government, there is no such risk.
The Government are clear that Abu Qatada has no right to refer the case to the Grand Chamber of the European Court of Human Rights, since the three-month deadline to do so lapsed at midnight on Monday.
Article 43 of the European Convention on Human Rights explains that a request for referral to the Grand Chamber must be made
“within a period of three months from the date of the judgment of the Chamber”.
The letter that communicated the European Court’s judgment, dated 17 January, confirmed this, saying
“any request for the referral of this judgment to the Grand Chamber must be duly reasoned and reach the registry within three months of today’s date”.
Therefore the deadline was midnight, Monday 16 April.
Because the European Court has no automatic mechanism to rule out an application for a referral based on the deadline, Abu Qatada’s application will be considered by a panel of five judges from the Grand Chamber. They will take into account the deadline, as set out in article 43 of the convention, as part of their consideration. The Government have written to the European Court to make clear our case that the application should be rejected because it is out of time.
Instead, the Government believe that the case should be heard in the Special Immigration Appeals Commission Court (SIAC), as I outlined in the House of Commons on Tuesday. Until the panel of the Grand Chamber makes its decision, however, a rule 39 injunction preventing the deportation of Abu Qatada remains in place. This means that the deportation process and any potential SIAC appeal is put on hold, but we will resume the process as soon as the injunction is lifted. In the meantime, we will continue to build our case, based on the assurances and information we have received from the Jordanian Government. Abu Qatada remains in detention, and the Government will resist vigorously any application he might make to be released on bail.
As I said in the House of Commons on Tuesday, despite the progress we have made, the process of deporting Abu Qatada is likely to take many months. That he has sought to delay that process by applying for a referral to the Grand Chamber after the deadline had passed and after he had heard our case in SIAC is evidence of the strength of our arguments and the likelihood of our eventual success in removing him from Britain for good.
Abu Qatada
Baroness May of Maidenhead Excerpts(12 years, 8 months ago)
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The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a statement on the deportation of the Jordanian terror suspect, Abu Qatada. May I first apologise to the shadow Home Secretary for the late receipt of my statement, which was occasioned by this afternoon’s court hearing?
I can tell the House that today officers from the UK Border Agency arrested and detained Abu Qatada and served notice that we are resuming his deportation. The assurances and information that the Government have secured from Jordan mean that we can undertake deportation in full compliance with the law and with the ruling of the European Court of Human Rights. Deportation might still take time—the proper processes must be followed and the rule of law must take precedence—but today Qatada has been arrested and the deportation is under way.
Let me remind the House briefly of where we are. For more than 10 years, successive Governments have sought to deport Abu Qatada to Jordan because of the serious risk that he poses to our national security. He has a long-standing association with al-Qaeda, he has been linked to several terrorist plots, and in Jordan he has been found guilty, in absentia, of terrorist offences. Despite the judgment of British courts that Qatada should be deported, and despite accepting that our diplomatic assurances from Jordan mean that he would not be mistreated on his return, in January the European Court of Human Rights ruled against his deportation. It did so on unprecedented grounds—that evidence obtained from the torture of others might be used against him in future legal proceedings in Jordan. As I have told this House before, the Government disagree vehemently with this ruling. Qatada does not belong in Britain; he belongs in Jordan, where he deserves to face justice.
We have since been working closely with our Jordanian counterparts to get the certainty we need that Qatada will face a fair trial on his return, and I want to thank Jordanian Ministers for their constructive and helpful approach. Since January, the Prime Minister has discussed Qatada’s deportation with King Abdullah. I have been to Jordan and held meetings with the King, the Prime Minister and several other Ministers. The Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, my hon. Friend the Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (James Brokenshire), who is responsible for crime and security, has travelled to Jordan. There have also been several official delegations to follow up on ministerial negotiations. These discussions are ongoing.
The result is that we now have the material we need to satisfy the courts and to resume deportation. I can give the House a brief description of the key facts that mean that Abu Qatada will get a fair trial. The state security court, which will hear Qatada’s case, is not a quasi-military court—as Strasbourg suggested—but a key part of the Jordanian legal system that considers a wide range of criminal cases. Qatada’s case will be heard in public with civilian judges. On his return to Jordan, Qatada’s conviction in absentia will be quashed immediately. He will be detained in a normal civilian detention centre where he will have access to independent defence lawyers. In court, he will be able to summon defence witnesses in his support.
Those accused alongside Abu Qatada when he was found guilty in Jordan, whose evidence is at the heart of the European Court’s ruling, can give evidence, but what they say in court will have no effect on the pardons they have already been granted. We can therefore have confidence that they would give truthful testimony. Furthermore, Qatada will be able to challenge their original statements. Indeed, one of the more significant recent developments is the change to the Jordanian constitution last autumn that includes an explicit ban on the use of torture evidence.
I believe that continuing the deportation proceedings against Qatada on the basis of those facts will be the quickest route to remove this man from our country. I know that many hon. Members are frustrated by Strasbourg’s ruling and by the time that it is taking to deport him. I share their frustration entirely. I know that a number of hon. Members have specific concerns, which I want to address head-on.
The first is why we cannot just ignore Strasbourg and put Qatada on a plane. In reality, we simply could not do that. As Ministers, we would not just be breaking the law ourselves, but would be asking Government lawyers, officials, the police, law enforcement officers and airline companies to break the law too. As soon as we issued a deportation notice to Qatada, his lawyers would win an immediate injunction preventing us from removing him. Even if we somehow succeeded in deporting him against the wishes of the courts, we would be ordered to bring him back to Britain and perhaps even to pay compensation. Instead, our approach will bring an enduring solution. The truth is that of all people and institutions, the Government must obey the law. That means that as long as we remain a signatory to the European convention, we have to abide by Strasbourg’s rulings.
The second concern is why we cannot deport Qatada when other countries have recently deported foreign nationals. The truth is that although all legal systems and all cases are different, no Council of Europe member state now ignores rule 39 injunctions, which Strasbourg issues to prevent deportations. The recent cases of foreign nationals being deported from France did not involve an appeal to the European Court of Human Rights. Italy has confirmed that it will no longer deport foreign nationals in defiance of rule 39 injunctions. I am keen to learn from the experience of other countries in Europe, so we will be examining the processes and procedures used in France, Italy and elsewhere to see whether our legislation might be changed to enable us to deport dangerous foreign nationals faster.
In the longer term, we need to stop the abuse of human rights law. The Brighton conference, which begins tomorrow, will examine how to reform the European Court of Human Rights. We are changing the immigration rules to prevent the abuse of the right to a family life and, of course, we need a British Bill of Rights.
Continuing with deportation on the basis of the work that we have done with the Jordanians is the quickest and safest means that we have of removing Qatada from Britain. However, hon. Members must be aware that that does not necessarily mean that he will be on a plane to Jordan within days. There is still a potential avenue of appeal to the Special Immigration Appeals Commission court, and beyond. That appeal process could take many months, but it would be based on narrow grounds, and with the assurances that we have received, we can have confidence in our eventual success. I believe that Abu Qatada should remain in custody throughout that process.
The other option available to us, which is to refer the case to the Grand Chamber of the European Court of Human Rights, could take even longer and would risk reopening our wider policy of seeking assurances about the treatment of terror suspects in their home countries. That policy was upheld by the European Court’s judgment in January, and it is crucial if we want to be able to deport terror suspects to countries where the courts have concerns about their treatment. There are 15 other such cases pending. I confirm that the Government have therefore not referred the Abu Qatada case to the Grand Chamber.
British courts have found that Abu Qatada is a dangerous man, that he is a risk to our national security and that he should be deported to Jordan. We have now obtained from the Jordanian Government the material that we need to comply with the ruling of the European Court. I believe that the assurances and the information that we have gathered will mean that we can soon put Qatada on a plane and get him out of our country for good. I commend this statement to the House.
Yvette Cooper
Will the Home Secretary agree to return to the House this afternoon or tomorrow morning if the court does not agree to revoke Abu Qatada’s bail and return him to custody, so that we can hear what action she will take and what safeguards she will put in place?
I hope Abu Qatada will be back behind bars by tonight in line with the security assessment that the Home Secretary and the courts have previously made, and that we have a clear and reliable timetable for his deportation to Jordan. I hope we will not be back to square one. There was too much drift earlier this year and we have had a troubling level of confusion this afternoon. Will she assure the House that she is in control of events, and that the deportation everyone wants to see is back on track?
Mrs May
May I first say that I welcome the support the shadow Home Secretary has given to the resumption of deportation and to the work that has been done to receive assurances from the Jordanian Government? A number of the points she made in response to my statement were made in her press release yesterday, but I recognise that she received my statement late. Although I covered a number of her questions in my statement, I will respond to the points she has made.
The right hon. Lady asked whether the SIAC proceedings this afternoon were properly applied for. Of course they were, but I am sure she will understand that when we are moving to arrest an individual whom we intend to deport, there is a limit to the number of people we tell before we move.
The right hon. Lady seemed to suggest that the Government had done nothing about the Strasbourg ruling until the bail hearing a few weeks later, and quoted Mr Justice Mitting, the judge at the bail hearing. The quote she gave made clear that negotiations with the Jordanians had already begun at the time of the bail hearing. I know she is always keen to attack, but her arguments might have a little more strength if they did not contradict each other.
The right hon. Lady asked about my estimated timetable for Abu Qatada’s deportation. As I said in my statement, we have resumed deportation against him and he was arrested earlier today. He has the right to appeal to SIAC, and I understand that he or his lawyers have made it clear that he intends to appeal and to ask for revocation of the deportation, possibly beyond SIAC—there are rights of appeal beyond SIAC. Because any appeal will be based on narrow grounds and because of the quality of the assurances we have, I am confident of our eventual success, but the process could take a number of months. I have been clear about that and said it in my statement.
The right hon. Lady appears to misunderstand the process. She says that we are going back to the beginning. In fact, we are resuming the deportation, which was set to one side during the appeals that went through to the European Court. She asked why we were not referring the case to the Grand Chamber. Again, I covered that in my statement. I said absolutely clearly that referring to the Grand Chamber would open up the whole of the judgment set down by the court on 17 January, part of which was positive for us. We have looked at the issues involved and taken the decision that the appropriate and right course of action that will ensure we can deport Abu Qatada is to follow the action we have taken of gaining assurances from the Jordanian Government and resuming the deportation.
The right hon. Lady asked about the length of time it is taking to deport Abu Qatada. May I remind her that deportation proceedings began in 2001, nine years before the end of the Government of whom she was a member? The time it is taking to deport Abu Qatada is not down to political will, but down to the nature of our legal system. As I said in my statement, I am willing and keen to look at how other European countries deport dangerous foreign nationals quickly, which is something that the last Government never did. We are following what I believe to be the right course of action to ensure that we can deport Abu Qatada. I have been clear in my statement—and I am willing to repeat it—that I believe that Abu Qatada should be in custody. That is why we arrested him this morning, have taken him to SIAC and are asking for his detention. The work that we have done has resulted in assurances from the Jordanian Government that I believe will enable us to deport Abu Qatada. That is what the whole of this House should want: Abu Qatada deported from this country, back to Jordan.
Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con)
Having made a powerful statement in favour of the deportation of Abu Qatada, will the Home Secretary confirm that at the Brighton conference, which begins tomorrow, it will be made clear that, as far as the United Kingdom is concerned, a British Bill of Rights will be determined by legislation passed in this House, and not based on the European convention on—but increasingly against—human rights?
Mrs May
My hon. Friend is right to refer to the Brighton conference, which starts tomorrow. It will be chaired by my right hon. and learned Friend the Justice Secretary, who has been working with the other 46 members of the Council of Europe to do what I believe we all want, which is to ensure that the European Court operates appropriately and in a way that reflects its original intentions. The Prime Minister made a speech earlier this year in which he made it clear that there were a number of issues that we wanted to look at, such as subsidiarity and the efficiency of the European Court. It is those matters which the Brighton conference will be discussing.
Mr David Blunkett (Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough) (Lab)
As the Home Secretary who originally certificated Abu Qatada, it would be churlish of me not to congratulate the Home Secretary on making at least some progress on the back of the change in Jordan’s constitution and on getting agreement. However, does she agree that much of the delay has been caused by the operation of the European Court, and that the proposals originally put forward by the Prime Minister for deliberation by the Council of Europe in Brighton this week have now been watered down? Is it not a contradiction to come here and be quite belligerent about believing that something can be achieved by words, when actually, in deliberation in Brighton this week, we will go in exactly the opposite direction?
Mrs May
I welcome the comments of the right hon. Gentleman, the Home Secretary who, as he said, first initiated proceedings for the deportation of Abu Qatada. What I would say to him about the Brighton conference is that the Prime Minister was quite clear earlier this year about those areas where we would be working to get some change in the operation of the European Court. Of course, all Members of this House will have to wait until the proceedings of the Brighton conference are complete to see the package that comes out of it, but I have every confidence that the work that my right hon. and learned Friend the Justice Secretary has done will indeed enable us to achieve the changes we want.
Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)
I welcome the Home Secretary’s action in obtaining assurances from Jordan. Although it is rather odious to have to wait for this man Abu Qatada to avail himself of all the rights and procedures that are available under our system, we should be clear that we want to live under a system that has rights and protections, and not the kind of regime that he and his friends would prefer to bomb us into.
Mrs May
My right hon. Friend makes a very valid point. It is precisely those sorts of freedoms and rights that we have in this country—the ones that we value in our justice system—that Abu Qatada and too many others would wish to destroy. As I said, we should accept that one body above all others that should obviously abide by the rule of law is the Government.
Alan Johnson (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) (Lab)
Is not the real issue in the case of Abu Qatada the fact that the Home Secretary has been engaged in a race against time as a result of her Government’s reckless decision to abandon control orders and replace them with measures that the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation has said will weaken national security?
Mr David Ruffley (Bury St Edmunds) (Con)
I congratulate the Home Secretary on the tenacity that she has shown; it makes her a formidable Home Secretary. On the question of assurances, will she respond to the recent comment about Abu Qatada from Thomas Hammarberg, the Council of Europe’s commissioner for human rights? He stated:
“There must be watertight guarantees that he should not be tried with evidence obtained under torture”.
Is that the nature of the assurance that she has received from the Jordanians?
Mrs May
I thank my hon. Friend for his words. I have set out a very brief description of the assurances that we have received; more details will obviously be put forward to the Special Immigration Appeals Commission at the deportation hearing. One of the key changes that has taken place in Jordan involves explicit changes to the constitution that outlaw the use of evidence that has been gained by torture.
Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)
I welcome the Home Secretary’s statement. I also congratulate her on the efforts that she has made, and especially on her visit to Jordan. Will she tell us the exact date on which she received the assurances from Jordan that satisfied her that a deal could be made? What worries me are the 15 other cases that she has told the House about today. At the Brighton conference, we need to establish a fast-track system so that cases involving dangerous people in this country can be fast-tracked through the European Court as well as through our own courts. That has been the view of successive Governments as far as Abu Qatada is concerned.
Mrs May
No. The right hon. Gentleman is suggesting that he knew first, but we were still in discussions with the Jordanian Government about the assurances and, as I have made clear in my statement, the work will continue. We have assurances, we are confident in the case that we have, and we will continue to work with the Jordanian authorities.
On the right hon. Gentleman’s question about the wider use of deportation with assurances, one of the issues that my right hon. and learned Friend the Justice Secretary and others across Government have been working on in relation to changes to the European Court is the efficiency of the Court. Another issue relates to subsidiarity and the relationship between national courts and the European Court. It is on those issues that I believe we will see some movement this week.
Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that this appalling case brings the management of human rights and our own justice system into serious disrepute? Does she also agree that both are in need of radical reform?
Mrs May
I am clear that we need to make some reforms. We all value human rights and we want to ensure that we uphold them, but we need to ensure that we have legal structures that will enable us to do so in a way that is proper and appropriate. That is why it is entirely right that the Government have been looking, in conjunction with others, at how the European Court works.
Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)
Observing the rule of law is even more important when we are dealing with an individual like this, but I want to ask the Home Secretary the same question as I have asked on previous occasions. This individual has been here for a very long time; he came here in the early 1990s. If there is evidence against him, why cannot he be charged with any crimes that he is alleged to have committed? If there is evidence against him—and there might well be—it is puzzling that he is not being tried in the United Kingdom.
Nicola Blackwood (Oxford West and Abingdon) (Con)
I thank the Home Secretary for her assurance that Abu Qatada will be deported in the fastest possible way, and I share her sentiment that the proper place for him is in detention. Does she not agree, however, that one of the major reforms to the European Court of Human Rights must involve addressing the backlog? Will she also assure the House that the Government will show real leadership at the Brighton conference and ensure that we make progress on this matter, once and for all, because it is seriously undermining public confidence in the justice system?
Mrs May
My hon. Friend has made a valid point about people’s confidence in the Court when they see that backlog. That backlog is precisely one of the issues that we have been addressing in discussions with other countries, and I expect the Brighton conference will consider how to deal with it. I hope that my hon. Friend will be able to welcome the outcome of that conference.
Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab)
It is potentially unhelpful, if not confusing, that the Special Immigration Appeals Commission is deliberating at the same time as the Home Secretary is making her statement. None the less, I, too, welcome the progress that she and her ministerial colleagues have made in their discussions with the Jordanian authorities. I have to put it to her, however, that if she had not been successful in her endeavours, Abu Qatada would not today be on a 22-hour curfew, but on a TPIM or terrorism prevention and investigation measure—a watered-down control order—with access to the internet and able to roam the streets of London. Would she be confident in that level of protection for the people of this country?
Mrs May
Yes, we are confident in the level of protection given by TPIMs—otherwise we not have introduced them. On the right hon. Gentleman’s first point about the timing, I am tempted to say that if SIAC had sat before I had made my statement, I would have received complaints from Labour Members that I should have come before the House before it had taken any decision.
Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood) (Con)
The European convention is incorporated in law by the Human Rights Act. On that basis, our supreme court has already ruled that it would be lawful to deport Abu Qatada. Why, therefore, does the Home Secretary say that it would unlawful?
Mrs May
Obviously, for the past three months, a rule 39 injunction against the deportation of Abu Qatada has come from the European Court. As I outlined in my statement, if any move were made to deport him immediately—we have a memorandum of understanding with Jordan about how a deportation would take place, including a timetable that we should abide by; it was a part of our arrangements supported by the European Court and was supported in the UK courts—it would be open to Abu Qatada to issue an injunction. If he were to be deported contrary to that injunction, it would of course be unlawful.
Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab)
I welcome the Home Secretary’s statement, but will she explain why, if it is in the public interest to deport Abu Qatada, it is in the public interest to allow terror suspects based here in the UK to have increased access to the internet, increased access to mobile phones and the freedom to come to London in the run-up to the Olympics and the Queen’s jubilee celebrations? Does she agree with the conclusions of the Anderson review that getting rid of control orders was a “political decision” and
“one that is unlikely to further the requirements of national security—rather the reverse.”?
Is that not a damning indictment of the Government’s decision to weaken our anti-terror laws?
Mrs May
First, as I said in response to an earlier question, I am confident in the TPIM measures that we have introduced and put in place. I note that not only a number of Labour Back Benchers, but the shadow Home Secretary herself have raised a number of questions about the issue of terrorism, anti-terrorism and national security. I simply say to them that they should ask themselves this: if they care so much about that issue, why is the Labour party campaigning to stop the extradition to the United States of a known terror suspect?
Mr Dominic Raab (Esher and Walton) (Con)
May I, like others, welcome the Home Secretary’s determination? As already said, the House of Lords has already approved this deportation without the requisite assurances that the Government are now able to provide. I seek some clarification of the rule 39 injunction to which my right hon. Friend has referred. Given the nature of how the UK implements international law, on what basis in UK law would such an injunction be directly enforceable in the UK courts?
Mrs May
I apologise to my hon. Friend. I thought that I had implied the answer to that question in my response to my hon. Friend the Member for Rochester and Strood (Mark Reckless), who is a member of the Home Affairs Committee.
The point is that if we were to act against the rule 39 injunction, it would be open to Abu Qatada—or, indeed, to anyone else in the same position—to go to our UK courts to obtain an injunction against deportation, and we would then find ourselves acting against the law that exists here in the UK. It is on that basis, apart from any other, that I say that we would be acting illegally.
Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP)
I thank the right hon. Lady for her statement, and assure her that my right hon. and hon. Friends will wholeheartedly support her efforts to ensure that this dangerous man, who is a risk to national security, is out of our country as soon as possible. Can she assure me, however, that she is confident that the European Court will not interfere again to hinder the deportation of this terrorist?
Mrs May
I thank the hon. Gentleman for assuring me of his support and that of his right hon. and hon. Friends. A legal process can now be obtained. Obviously Abu Qatada will have an initial right of appeal to SIAC and further potential rights of appeal in the UK courts and then the European Court, but it cannot be guaranteed that the hearing of those appeals would be accepted. The confidence that I feel is based on the fact that we are considering a narrow definitional issue as we take the matter through the courts.
Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD)
I welcome the announcement that the Government can now deport Abu Qatada, and that they have addressed the concerns about the possible use of evidence obtained under torture. I also welcome the Home Secretary’s clear statement that we should not be in the business of breaking laws ourselves, ignoring Strasbourg, and simply putting Abu Qatada back on a plane. May I, however, follow up an earlier question from the hon. Member for Walsall North (Mr Winnick)? Will the Government now make every effort to pursue cases such as this through the UK courts whenever possible, so that we do not become involved in such lengthy legal shenanigans in the future?
Mrs May
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for his question. I suspect that more lies behind it than merely the deportation of Abu Qatada.
In cases such as this, when we are dealing with individuals who are a danger to the United Kingdom and are suspected of terrorist offences, the Government explore every avenue. However, as I pointed out earlier and as my right hon. Friend will know, decisions about prosecution in the UK are not decisions for the Government. As I have said in response to a number of questions, we and other members of the Council of Europe are looking at the efficiency of the European Court, because the matter was before it for a significant period.
Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab)
Does the Home Secretary recognise that the vast majority of the British public who have heard her statement today will not understand why we, a so-called independent country, cannot get rid of someone who is a risk to our security? She has said, and I accept it, that we do not want to be seen to be breaking the law, but the law is clearly wrong, and we must find ways of changing it so that we can deport, as soon as possible, people whom we do not wish to be in this country.
Mrs May
I thank the hon. Lady for what I think is her support for my statement. We will be considering, in particular, the systems that are available to other countries to establish whether there is anything that we should be doing here in the UK to ensure that we can deport people who are dangerous to the United Kingdom, who are suspected of terrorist offences, and who pose a national security risk, far more quickly than we do now.
Mr Brian Binley (Northampton South) (Con)
I too congratulate the Home Secretary on setting in train the process of deporting Abu Qatada. Many people in this country will welcome her action. However, although the matter has not been helped by the European Court of Human Rights, there are rumours that our proposals to the Brighton conference will be watered down. Will the Home Secretary, here and now, give us an unqualified assurance that that will not happen when the conference opens tomorrow?
Mrs May
I am not in a position to predict what will emerge from the deliberations that will take place during the three days in Brighton, but I can assure my hon. Friend that—as I said earlier—the Prime Minister in a speech earlier this year clearly defined the areas in which we felt that it was necessary to work with other countries on reform of the European Court, and I have every expectation that they will be addressed at the conference this week.
Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab)
May I again draw hon. Members’ attention to the forthcoming entry in the register? The Home Secretary may be aware that the all-party group on Jordan was also in Amman last week. I believe that it was on the same day as the Home Secretary spoke to the Jordanian Prime Minister that we were able briefly to raise the Abu Qatada issue with him, explaining the great public concern in the UK about it. I must agree that he emphasised at that time that Jordan wished to do what it could to facilitate the deportation and to make progress on human rights. It is also important to put on the record today that when we spoke to the Jordanians—I am sure that the Home Secretary will do this as well—we said that we in no way wish them to lighten up on human rights standards in their country; we want them to continue the progress they are making towards political reform, constitutional reform and human rights.
Mrs May
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his comments. As I have said, the Jordanian Government have been very helpful in our discussions about Abu Qatada. What is significant is that the way in which the Jordanian system operates today is different from the portrayal given by the European Court; a significant number of changes have taken place. Indeed, when I was in Jordan, everything that people were saying to me, both at Government level and through officials and others, was that they see Jordan continuing to move forward on this issue of human rights.
Nick Boles (Grantham and Stamford) (Con)
The Home Secretary has remained admirably calm in her responses to a string of former and wannabe Home Office Ministers on the Labour Benches, whose bluster has not concealed the fact that they utterly failed, over the course of nine years, to make any progress in getting this man out of this country. Will the Home Secretary assure me that Abu Qatada will no longer be residing in the United Kingdom long before there is next a Labour Home Secretary?
Mrs May
My hon. Friend tempts me down a route of prediction. What I will say to him is that, as everybody in this House knows, it has taken considerable time to get to where we are at the moment. There are further processes to go through, but I believe that what the Government have done is to take absolutely the right course, which is to get together the assurances that we need to be able to resume deportation. I have every confidence in our eventual success in being able to achieve that deportation.
Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)
Does the Home Secretary agree with me, and, I suspect, with many millions of the British public, that British courts should have the final say on who stays in our country, not a foreign court in Strasbourg?
Mrs May
I am well aware of the strength of feeling on that, in this House and outside it. As I have said, and as has been made clear in this Chamber on a number of occasions, one of the issues raised by the Prime Minister in his speech earlier this year on the European Court—one of the issues that is being looked at—is the question of subsidiarity and when it is right that decisions, having been through national courts, should be considered final, without reference to the European Court.
Conor Burns (Bournemouth West) (Con)
I congratulate the Home Secretary on her leadership in getting a grip on this issue, which has gone on for far too long. Does she agree that we can take great pride in this country that, however frustrating it may be, even those who despise our values and our freedoms are accorded the full protection of due process under the law? Does she agree that for those frustrations to disappear in future, we need to reform the European Court of Human Rights, as the Prime Minister has said, at source?
Mrs May
My hon. Friend is absolutely right to say that we can take pride in the justice system that we have here in the United Kingdom. I know that many people find it frustrating when they see such decisions coming out of the European Court and when they see us having to take our time to get the assurances we need. But as he has said, it is absolutely right that we seek reform of the European Court, and that is why the Brighton conference this week is so important.
Gareth Johnson (Dartford) (Con)
May I, too, pay tribute to the work that the Home Secretary has carried out on this difficult issue? Can she give the House any assurances that as and when Mr Abu Qatada is deported from this country he will remain deported from this country, notwithstanding the fact that he has family residing in the UK?
Mrs May
One reason we have been pursuing this case in the way that we have is that I want what I have called a sustainable deportation, in that I do not want us to be required by some court here in the UK to bring Abu Qatada back into the United Kingdom. That is why we have been pursuing the case in the way that we have.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
I am sure the residents of the Kettering constituency would want me to congratulate the Home Secretary on her tremendous efforts to deport this wretched man. Reassuringly, she said she would look at how France, Italy and other countries do this sort of thing rather faster. Who is going to lead that review, and when will they report?
Mrs May
I will come back to my hon. Friend with more details on that in due course, if I may. I have already initiated some work on this within the Home Office, and we will be looking at the matter as soon as we can. If we were to require legislative changes, we would have to look at the legislative timetable.
Mike Crockart (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Torture is abhorrent no matter where it happens, and we must all be happy that Abu Qatada’s deportation will be achieved without implicitly condoning such behaviour. The Secretary of State must agree, however, that that is still the second-best option, behind the option of trying Abu Qatada in this country. Will she therefore redouble her efforts to remove any remaining barriers to that happening in future, such as by addressing the use of intercept evidence?
Mrs May
As I have said in answers to a number of other Members, the Government have, of course, at all times looked as widely as possible at what action could be taken in relation to Abu Qatada, as I assume the previous Government also did. The hon. Gentleman raises the issue of intercept as evidence. As he will know, we have a Privy Council group that is still looking into that issue, and the only comment I would make is that very often it is assumed that that is the one answer that will solve all our problems when all the evidence is that it is not.
Michael Ellis (Northampton North) (Con)
May I, as a member of the Home Affairs Committee, congratulate the Home Secretary on the personal role she has played in securing Jordanian co-operation in this matter? Although the shadow Home Secretary kept referring to this as going back to square one, will my right hon. Friend confirm that it is, in fact, a resumption of proceedings that were already ongoing, having herself now obtained assurances from the Jordanians; and that this process will be faster than going through to the Grand Chamber of the European Court?
Mr Speaker
I should just mention that I did not mention the Bill of Rights at all, but somebody did, and I think we are about to hear from her.
Mrs May
Yes, I did refer to the Bill of Rights, and as my hon. Friend will know, my right hon. and learned Friend the Justice Secretary has set up a commission to look into this whole question of a Bill of Rights. It will report in due course. As I have said, I am looking into how we can ensure that we can deport people who are a risk to our national security, and have a speedier and more secure process of doing so than we currently have.
Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con)
I warmly welcome the Home Secretary’s strong statement. Has this whole sorry episode convinced her and the entire Government that, as others have said, what we need is a British Bill of Rights declared senior to Strasbourg, and a supreme court over the road that lives up to its name?
Mr James Clappison (Hertsmere) (Con)
I welcome my right hon. Friend’s approach. Those who are called upon to exercise judgment in striking a balance in this matter would do well to regard the evidence over a long period about the seriousness of this gentleman’s connections and the threat he poses, and to take into account the judgment of an eminent British judge, who called him a “truly dangerous individual”.
Mrs May
My hon. Friend is absolutely right and I assure him that the case the Home Office will be putting forward at various hearings—both at bail and otherwise—will of course draw on the past evidence that this is a dangerous individual. That is why we wish to deport him and why I believe that, prior to deportation, he should be in detention.
David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Con)
I congratulate the Home Secretary on moving mountains to get to this point, but will she describe the roadblocks that the Opposition had to encounter before we could get a grip on this issue and sort it out?
Mrs May
I thank my hon. Friend for his remarks. Of course, this is not purely my effort; the Minister with responsibility for crime and security, my hon. Friend the Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup went to Jordan, and a significant number of Home Office and Foreign Office officials have been working extremely hard over the past weeks and months since the original judgment to ensure that we reached the position we are in today, whereby we have been able to arrest Abu Qatada and resume deportation. It has taken a long time overall, and part of the reason is the lengthy legal process that has taken place. That is one of the reasons why I believe it necessary to look at whether we could make any changes to enable us to make these deportations quicker.
Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con)
May I join in the congratulations to the Home Secretary on the progress she has made? Without asking her to predict failure, if the Brighton conference fails to produce a suitably robust reform for the Strasbourg Court, do the Government have a fall-back position for getting these things into a far better, more streamlined state?
Mrs May
I am rather more optimistic than my hon. Friend is about the Brighton conference, because I know of the considerable work put in by my right hon. and learned Friend the Justice Secretary, and by my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary and others across government, to work with the other 46 member states—remember, 47 countries will be around the table to discuss this. I am confident that the areas of change the Prime Minister has set out will indeed be addressed.
Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con)
At the Brighton conference, what steps will we take to ensure that cases such as this, which raise important and serious issues of national security, can be expedited and take their place over and above the thousands of cases heard by the European Court that raise no new issues of law whatsoever?
Mrs May
My hon. Friend raises a valid point. On the length of time taken, there are two issues, one of which relates to the European Court. As I have said, the question of its efficiency will be addressed at the Brighton conference, as I understand it. The other issue is the time that proceedings here in the United Kingdom take, which is why I am looking at the systems and legal structures that apply in countries such as France and Italy, to see whether there is something we should be learning and changes we should be making.
Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con)
My right hon. Friend is quite right—the British Government must not break the law, but she will know that the British Parliament must make the law, and make it quickly. Can she say when the day will come—can she indicate a timetable—when the findings of British courts and the decisions of my right hon. Friend will not be subject to overthrow by the European Court of Human Rights?
Mrs May
I have made my views on this issue absolutely clear on a number of occasions. As I have said, a number of pieces of work are going on to strengthen the position of the Government and the UK generally in dealing with such issues. That is partly about working with the European Court to reform the way it operates, and partly about us looking at our own legal system to see whether we need to do anything to strengthen our hand here in the UK.
Kris Hopkins (Keighley) (Con)
I welcome the progress made by my right hon. Friend in ridding this country of this wretched man—something the previous Labour Government should have done many years ago. Will she use the experience gained in this case to start deporting the many other foreign prisoners who continue to reside in our prisons at our taxpayers’ expense?
Mrs May
I can assure my hon. Friend that we are working on the whole question of the deportation of foreign national offenders, the assurances we need from other countries and the need to ensure that we can do it more speedily and more efficiently than in the past. This is ongoing work and cannot be done at a drop of a hat, so it will take some time for us to put in place some of the arrangements we need to ensure that we can act with rather greater rigour.
Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)
One of the great frustrations in this case is that foreign nationals who are suspected of terrorism in other countries gain admission to the UK and use our courts and the European courts to frustrate their removal. What action can my right hon. Friend take to ensure that those foreign nationals who are suspected of terrorism are not admitted in the first place?
Mrs May
Of course, we have been looking across the board at our policies on this subject. We have a far stronger policy on exclusions from the UK than the one adopted by the previous Labour Government. I believe that that is right. We have a duty to protect British citizens and it is right that we should consider every avenue to ensure that we can do that.
Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con)
I welcome today’s arrest of Qatada and congratulate my right hon. Friend on her work, particularly with the Jordanian authorities, in this case. However, the central fact remains that in this case the European Court of Human Rights did not weigh up the interests of UK national security against the interests of Qatada. Will she assure the House that if the European Court of Human Rights cannot be reformed to meet the standards of security that British citizens expect, we should consider leaving it?
Mrs May
Of course, as I am standing at the Dispatch Box before the Brighton conference on the reform of the European Court has taken place, I can only refer my right hon. and hon. Friends to the speech made by the Prime Minister earlier this year and to the areas in which change should be made that he set out. I am afraid that in terms of what will come out of the Brighton conference, my hon. Friend will just have to be patient.
Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)
For far too long, this country seems almost to have been a beacon for terrorists who arrive here legally or illegally and stay here. They live on us like leeches and we cannot get rid of them. Will my right hon. Friend instruct her officials to make as much progress as possible in reducing the time for which those people, who suck our blood for so long, stay in this country before we can get rid of them?
Dan Byles (North Warwickshire) (Con)
I, too, congratulate my right hon. Friend on her statement and on her resolve on this issue. It is hard to think of another case that so clearly sums up everything that is wrong with the twisted priorities and logic of the European Court of Human Rights. Does my right hon. Friend agree that without radical reform, the European Court represents a clear barrier to British courts’ ability to protect British citizens from those who threaten our security?
Mrs May
It has been the clear view of this Government for some time that we need to bring about reform of the European Court in a number of areas. That work has been undertaken in recent months. As I said, the Brighton conference, under the chairmanship of my right hon. and learned Friend the Justice Secretary, will consider the action that can be taken to reform the European Court. As a Government, and in the Home Office, we will consider the systems we have in place to see whether we can learn anything from other countries to provide us with a swifter means of deporting those who are a threat to our national security.
Mr David Evennett (Bexleyheath and Crayford) (Con)
I am very grateful to you for calling me, Mr Speaker. I congratulate my right hon. Friend on her statement and on the leadership she has shown on this issue, which is to be commended. Is she aware that my constituents believe that this case has gone on for far too long, that it needs a speedy resolution and that until we can get rid of this Abu Qatada, he should stay behind bars? My constituents are also looking for radical reform so that this cannot happen again.
Mrs May
I ask my hon. Friend to reassure his constituents that, like them, I think that this has taken too long. Like them, I wish Abu Qatada to be deported and deported sustainably so that he does not return to the United Kingdom. Like them, I think we need reform of the European Court. That is the view of the Government and that is why we have been pursuing this in our work as chair of the Council of Europe. The Brighton conference will consider those proposals this week.
Point of Order
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Mr Speaker
I will rule on that, but as the hon. Gentleman has raised a point of order that relates directly to the Home Secretary and she is in her place, she has the opportunity to respond if she wishes to do so.
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. I assure the House that I gave no such briefing to the press in relation to this. In response to the suggestion of the right hon. Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper) that the Special Immigration Appeals Commission had not been properly informed, I made the point that the number of people who were aware that the arrest was about to take place was limited. I understand, however, that there were a number of journalists outside Abu Qatada’s house, as there have been at various stages in the past three months. Therefore, when action was taken it was only to be expected that that information would be available to the media.
Mr Speaker
Order. I am happy to respond to the point of order from the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant). First, I have had no opportunity to make any direct comparison between the text reported in the Evening Standard and the content of the Home Secretary’s statement. Secondly, as has already been said, it is commonplace for there to be heavy media speculation in circumstances of this kind.
Thirdly, I take this opportunity forcefully to underline the crucial importance of statements of this kind, and indeed all significant statements of Government policy, being made first to the House. The Home Secretary did me the courtesy of contacting me over the weekend and we discussed her desire to make a statement today. Of course, I pointed out that it was extremely important if the statement was not to be made until Tuesday that nothing of it emerged in advance into the public domain, to which proposition I know she readily agreed. I do not think I can say more than that now, but these things must first be revealed to the House and not outside. Although of course there are many actors on the stage, not least within Departments and other organisations, Ministers are responsible for everything that is said by those within their Department. I know that that is a responsibility of which the Home Secretary will be keenly conscious.
Abu Qatada
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The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
This afternoon I will make an oral statement to the House on the next steps in the deportation of Abu Qatada.
Police Officers and Staff (Remuneration and Conditions of Service)
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The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
On 15 March I issued a written statement to the House to announce that Tom Winsor had published the final report of his review of remuneration and conditions of service for police officers and staff in England and Wales.
When the review was launched, I said that it is vital that we have a modern and flexible police service to meet the demands placed on it, and this is still true today. We have the finest police service in the world, and our police do one of the most important jobs in the country with great courage, skill and commitment. However, we need to support the service in maximising its potential and in its progress to become the 21st century service the public deserve.
The review has an important role to play in this as part of the Government’s wider police reform agenda, along with other reforms including the introduction of police and crime commissioners, the reduction in bureaucracy, developing professionalism in the service and the creation of the police professional body, and improving service to the public through collaboration between police forces, with other public services and with the private sector. Police officers and staff deserve to have pay and work force arrangements that recognise the vital role they play in fighting crime and keeping the public safe, and enable them to deliver effectively for the public. We also need a work force that can respond to the reality of policing in the 21st century.
The Winsor review began its work on 1 October 2010. Its terms of reference asked for recommendations on how to:
Use remuneration and conditions of service to maximise officer and staff deployment to frontline roles where their powers and skills are required;
Provide remuneration and conditions of service that are fair to and reasonable for both the public taxpayer and police officers and staff;
Enable modern management practices in line with practices elsewhere in the public sector and the wider economy.
The review was asked to report in two stages: the first on short-term improvements and a second on longer-term reforms.
On 30 January 2012 I laid a statement about recommendations made in Tom Winsor’s Part 1 Report. I accepted the recommendations from the Police Arbitration Tribunal and the Police Negotiating Board on these matters. These recommendations represented an important first step in modernising police pay and conditions so that they are fair to officers and to taxpayers.
The Government remain committed to further reform and to the principles set out in the Winsor Part 1 Report:
Fairness is an essential part of any new system of pay and conditions
The office of constable is the bedrock of British policing
The demands of policing should be given full and proper weight
People should be paid for what they do, the skills they have and are applying in their work, and the weights of the jobs they do
People should be paid for how well they work
A single police service—distinctions in pay and other conditions of service between police officers and staff should be objectively justified
Arrangements should be simple to implement and administer
Phased introduction of reform
The final report sets out a further package of specific recommendations for police officers’ and staff remuneration and conditions of service, based on these guiding principles.
These include proposals to reform officers’ pay structures, to change the ways in which they join and leave the service, and for a new system for determining pay and conditions.
The Government have now had the opportunity to consider the final report.
I am minded to direct the Police Negotiating Board and Police Advisory Board for England and Wales to consider as a matter of urgency proposals on pay, a fast-track scheme to the rank of inspector and other matters that are within their respective remits. I am consulting the independent chair of those bodies on this.
I asked Tom Winsor to consider the findings of the Independent Public Service Pensions Commission, led by Lord Hutton, concerning the normal pension age for police officers. The final report recommends a pension age of 60, in line with Lord Hutton’s recommended pension age for police officers.
This recommendation will be reflected in a proposal for long-term reform of police pensions on which I will now consult the Police Negotiating Board. In common with the reforms which are being developed across public service pension schemes, the Government are committed to ensuring that police pensions are affordable and sustainable for the future. Those who work in the police and across public services will continue to have access to pension schemes that are among the very best available.
Tom Winsor has also made recommendations for entry to the service at the rank of superintendent and, for those with relevant policing experience overseas, at the rank of chief constable. I do not believe it is in the best interests of the service to restrict its ability to appoint officers to senior positions to a limited number of individuals. While police leaders have undoubted strengths, I want to ensure that the police service is able to draw upon the best pool of talent available. The Government believe that the review’s recommendations on entry could support this and I will therefore consult partners on them.
The review also recommends significant changes to the way in which police pay and conditions are determined, including abolishing the Police Negotiating Board, establishing a pay review body for officers, and including the remuneration of chief officers in the senior salaries review body’s remit. The Government will consult on proposals for implementing the necessary changes to the police officer pay machinery.
The recommendations made in the report are matters of serious national importance for the service, which could play a vital role in reform. They represent significant changes to structures for pay, conditions, careers and leadership. I will therefore be taking forward the steps I have described as a matter of urgency.
Migration Advisory Committee and the Technical Advisory Board
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The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
I am announcing today that my Department will shortly commence the first triennial review of the Migration Advisory Committee and the technical advisory board. Triennial reviews of non-departmental public bodies (NDPBs) are part of the Government’s commitment to ensuring accountability in public life. I will announce the findings of the review later this year.