Northern Ireland (Ministers, Elections and Petitions of Concern) Bill (Second sitting)
Robin Walker ExcerptsTuesday 29th June 2021
(2 years, 10 months ago)
Public Bill CommitteesRead Full debate Northern Ireland (Ministers, Elections and Petitions of Concern) Act 2022 View all Northern Ireland (Ministers, Elections and Petitions of Concern) Act 2022 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: Public Bill Committee Amendments as at 29 June 2021 - (29 Jun 2021)
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Robin Walker)
Q
Sir Jonathan Stephens: Fundamentally, there were no Ministers available to give direction and take critical decisions. The Northern Ireland civil service was left in a wholly unprecedented situation, which I know from talking to many of them they found intensely challenging and was not at all what they sought. Civil servants are trained to work for and support the Government of the day and Ministers and provide their advice to Ministers, who take decisions that civil servants then implement. Our colleagues in the Northern Ireland civil service were left trying to maintain the machinery of Government and trying to provide public services in the absence of ministerial decisions, and they found that increasingly uncomfortable as time went on.
Mr Walker
Q
Sir Jonathan Stephens: I think it does a number of important things. First, it fills in what you might think of as a number of loopholes in the original design of the Northern Ireland Act 1998, which simply did not contemplate the sort of situation in which we found ourselves in 2016.
Secondly, and perhaps most importantly, it provides time and space for the Executive or for party leaders to resolve fundamental differences, if and when they arise. As you will know, the previous scheme provided only for periods of either seven or 14 days for the formation of the Executive and the appointment of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister. We went through those early deadlines very quickly indeed in 2016. We were left in the unprecedented situation of having no means of restoring the Executive without fresh legislation at Westminster.
It is important to say that these changes provide a number of mechanisms that will help in the resolution of fundamental differences, if they arise again. They provide greater assurance for continuity of decision making, but, of course, nothing is perfect. I have always thought that if there is absolute determination to bring about the collapse of the institutions, or such a deep and fundamental breakdown in trust between the parties that they cannot be restored, then no amount of clever constitutional provisions will get over such a fundamental breakdown.
Colum Eastwood (Foyle) (SDLP)
Q
Do you think it is fair to say that the New Decade, New Approach agreement was largely imposed by the two Governments at a very opportune moment in the political process? The three largest parties had had a difficult election. We had a nurses’ strike and then the two Governments struck, and got Stormont back up and running again. That goes to the heart of your point that if we do not have political parties willing to work the system and work together, no clever constitutional construct can stop them collapsing it. Do you think there is more that we could have done as part of those discussions? I am particularly thinking about the way in which the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister are appointed.
Sir Jonathan Stephens: I would not use the word “imposed” because, at the end of the day, it was the decision of all the main parties in Northern Ireland to re-form the Executive. Yes, it was on the basis of the proposals put forward in New Decade, New Approach, but each party was free to take its own decision on that. From my point of view, when the document was published there was no certainty as to how parties would react and whether it would provide a basis for forming the Executive. We very much hoped so, but there was no certainty.
It reflected extensive discussions, of which a number of people on the Committee will have close memories, over many years, but most recently over the period of months from the calling together of the most recent session of talks, following the tragic murder of Lyra McKee. Again, there was very strong input from the parties. Although the proposals were the proposals from the Governments, they reflected very considerably the input of the parties. They were our best judgment as to where agreement lay.
On the First and Deputy First Ministers, I am conscious that parties have a number of different views on that. There are a number of parties that think that the original arrangement under the Good Friday agreement for the election of the First and Deputy First Ministers on the basis of cross-community consent should not have been changed after the St Andrews agreement. Other parties who were critical of the St Andrews agreement formed and participated in devolved government on the basis of that.
The Good Friday agreement was now more than 20 years ago. It was designed with one situation and set of scenarios in mind. As ever, the world moves on and change comes. It is coming in Northern Ireland, and there will come a time when it will be right to look at some of the fundamental arrangements within that agreement and consider whether they still best serve the people of Northern Ireland and adequately reflect the current situation in Northern Ireland. However, that would be quite a major task to undertake, with possible renegotiation of key aspects of the agreement. It is not a task that, personally, I think is quite right for now.
Mr Walker
Q
Sir Jonathan Stephens: Without the deal in place, although of course at the time we had no awareness that covid was just around the corner, it is absolutely inconceivable that Northern Ireland civil servants without ministerial direction could have responded to the covid crisis. I think it would have driven direct rule inevitably. Much of my career in the Northern Ireland Office has been about trying to find the basis on which devolution can be restored and leaders from within Northern Ireland can take decisions for Northern Ireland. I believe that that is a far better system of government for Northern Ireland, allowing Northern Ireland’s unique interests and concerns to be reflected by its own politicians and leaders.
Of course, over many years in the Northern Ireland Office I experienced direct rule, and direct rule Ministers from Westminster made the best of trying to take decisions for Northern Ireland, but I know they felt deeply uncomfortable at times taking decisions for a part of the UK from which they were not elected and where they did not reflect the local community. I do not think that I ever saw a Minister who did not believe that local politicians should be taking decisions for local matters in Northern Ireland.
The concern always was that, once direct rule were reinstituted, if it ever were, it would be enormously difficult and time-consuming to restore agreed institutions again. That would mean that there were real questions about the nature of Northern Ireland, how its society was reflected in its Government, and I think that would also be very bad for Northern Ireland. Although we did not know it at the time, it was incredibly fortunate timing that the agreement was reached just in time before covid hit, and meant that Northern Ireland was trying to respond to that crisis but with its own leaders and politicians, conscious of its own challenges and unique characteristics.
The Chair
Sir Jonathan, were there any final remarks you wanted to make before we finish your evidence session and wish everyone well?
Sir Jonathan Stephens: No, thank you.
Mr Walker
Q
Emma Little-Pengelly: Over the years, there has been some frustration about what some may perceive to be breaches of the ministerial code, and a lack of action against those. I think that the proposed changes are welcome, in that they really try to tighten up some of those provisions in relation to how they apply, but ultimately this comes down to two different issues, and I think this applies to all of the provisions in the Bill. These changes are designed to try to encourage better behaviour. For example, when you look at the move from seven days after a resignation to call an election to the rolling process of six weeks and six weeks, that is obviously something that was pushed for to try to encourage people to get around a table, with a series of deadlines to try to encourage a more structured process, I think to focus minds, and also to allow other people to come in and make their representations very clear to the parties that they want the Northern Ireland Assembly to continue, and about the issues that are important to them, as opposed to—as I have said—a tactical resignation.
However, ultimately, as some of the other witnesses have said, this will work only if there is a willingness for people to agree. We all have our issues that we feel very strongly about, and we will not always find consensus on those issues. Some of the people around the table will have been part of coalition Governments before. Coalition Government is frustrating: you will not always find agreement on the way forward, and therefore those issues cannot be progressed. Ultimately, it is about the willingness of people to compromise—to get together to try to find a solution that appeals to everybody across the community. If we try to get into a space where there are only solutions that appeal to the majority, to the exclusion of a significant minority or to the exclusion of a community in Northern Ireland, we would be in a very difficult space in terms of stability, not only of the institutions but of Northern Ireland. I think those who worked on the Belfast agreement and those who worked on the St Andrews agreement recognised that and saw the value in having those types of safeguards to ensure maximum inclusion, because once we go down the route of—for example—removing the safeguards of petition of concern and consensus decision making and moving towards majority decision making, there is the risk of exclusion, and I do not think that is good for people, certainly not on the key decisions. I think it is all about balance.
Mr Walker
Q
Emma Little-Pengelly: Absolutely. When you look back over the 20 years of the operation of these mechanisms, they were there to build trust and confidence in all of the parties across all of the communities to be part of the institutions in Northern Ireland. That is why I highlight the difference between what has happened in more recent elections, where we now have a number of quite significant minorities, and what had happened for the majority of that period of time, which is that there was a Unionist majority. I think that those who drafted these documents and those, including myself, who have worked on this over the years recognised that this was not a majority Government situation in which Unionists, when they were in the majority, simply got everything they wanted and others got nothing.
That is why there needs to be, I suppose, better reflection about why these provisions are there, and the dangers of simply dismissing them. Rather than people jumping up and down and saying, “We are really angry because you are vetoing what we want”, they should sit back and reflect and say, “Look, there is clearly not consensus for this proposal. How do we find a consensus way forward? How do we look at getting a balance within what is happening and try to find a way forward that includes the maximum number of people?” You will never get absolutely everybody on board, and we recognise that, but we have been through really difficult situations before, such as the devolution of policing and justice and trying to work through a programme for government. We have to remember that the parties in Northern Ireland are not just very different constitutionally speaking, but they are very different in that they come from across the political spectrum, from left to right and all things in between. Any coalition Government with parties that are quite diametrically different in political ideologies will always be challenging. That is the challenge that we have; we have got through it in previous years. But we only get through it by getting round a table and finding the consensus way forward, not by majoritarily forcing other people, through the removal of the veto’s protections and safeguards.
Stephen Farry
Q
Perhaps as an example of that, could Emma just reflect on the fact that, to my knowledge, since the Assembly was created in 1999 there has been no instance whatever of it legislating successfully at all in the human rights or equalities sphere? That has never happened and it has always fallen to Westminster to address those issues.
Emma Little-Pengelly: In terms of the provisions, I am not sure that if you look back at how the petition of concern operated from the Belfast/Good Friday agreement onwards—so, from 1998—what you will see would back up your analysis that the petition of concern is used mainly by one particular side of the community.
I say that for this reason. If you look at the bare figures, it does look as if it has been used much more, of course, by the Unionist-designated bloc than by the nationalist-designated bloc. However, that really only changed quite recently, in terms of the Democratic Unionist party obtaining 30 seats, which was the threshold in terms of signing the petition of concern. Prior to that, by default no party had over 30 seats. Therefore, despite the fact that it was not explicit within the petition of concern, the way that the petition of concern practically operated was that you required more than one party to agree with it, and that was including within designations.
I think that what you see, for example within the nationalist designation, is that you do not have and you never had the ability of one party to sign a petition of concern. Therefore, I would suggest that to try to get 30 signatures within that designation on policy issues is much more challenging, because of course you will have significant policy differences between those two parties. However, when the DUP obtained 30 seats or votes in the election, that of course made it much easier to use the petition of concern, and I think that is when some of the issues and concerns arose.
Also, when you look, Dr Farry, at the types of issues for which the petition of concern has been used, you will see that a significant number of those petitions of concern were used, for example, in relation to welfare reform legislation. Again, I think it is important to look at the nature of this issue. For example, it was not the case that the Unionist bloc were not sympathetic to the arguments around welfare reform and that we are not sympathetic to, for example, the proposed welfare mitigations; in fact, I think the opposite is true and that people were very sympathetic. But the concern around that issue lay fundamentally with financial aspects of it.
As we know, with welfare reform happening in Westminster, that had a direct impact in relation to what was happening in Northern Ireland. We were not going to get the hundreds of millions of pounds that would have been required to do the mitigations put forward by a series of amendments by other parties. So, the consideration there in terms of the use of the petition of concern was around this argument: “Look, if this passed in the Assembly, or if these legislative changes are proposed without consensus”—and there was no consensus on those amendments—“there would be a cost to the Northern Ireland Executive of hundreds of millions of pounds of additional money, which would have to be found from the block grant”.
Now, if you look back at that time, you had a DUP Finance Minister, so of course they would have been very attuned to what the concerns were then. But that is a decision that is often used to say that this is a misuse of the petition of concern. In fact, if it had not been used, those hundreds of millions of pounds would have had to be found from across other Departments. Of course, it did include human rights and equality issues because it would have meant, for example, top-slicing or taking funding away from the health service at that time, before it had been reformed, when it required even more money, never mind a top-slicing. It would undoubtedly have required other programmes to stop completely, but without any analysis by the Assembly of what the impact of those changes would have been.
In my view, a decision was taken that it was the responsible thing to do to use the petition of concern in that way to prevent the Assembly from voting on something that was going to cost hundreds of millions of pounds across Departments and have a massive impact on the everyday lives of individuals. Of course, as you know, having been a Minister in the Government, these things are all about balance, but they are also about responsibility and trying to assess the best way to do those things by talking them through and by consensus, not by forcing amendments through where there is clearly no consensus behind them, for example.
Mr Walker
Q
You have talked about the importance of the Good Friday agreement institutions. I absolutely recognise that. Do you accept that, since the NDNA deal was reached, we have seen the restoration of devolution? We have seen meetings of the British Irish Council and the British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference. We have seen those institutions functioning. It required an agreement, as you say, with the input of both the British and the Irish Governments and all five parties to reach it.
I appreciate there are aspects of the Bill that you and your party might feel ought to be different, and aspects of the St Andrews agreement architecture that you may not like. Do you accept, however, that in order to get the devolved institutions restored and the institutions of the Good Friday agreement itself properly functioning, we needed to get the buy-in of all five parties and therefore reach a deal that was acceptable to all of them?
Mark Durkan: Yes, I do. I said that I recognised that NDNA was an agreement by all the parties and it was the price that had to be paid for getting the institutions restored. I am glad that it is the case, too, as you say, Minister, that it is not just the Assembly and the Executive who have been operating; obviously, this week we had the British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference and other things, and I am very glad of that.
I am at a loss to understand why there was a decade when the British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference did not meet. I think that the two Governments gave a very bad example as the supposed co-guarantors of the agreement. The one bit of the agreement that falls particularly to them was not being honoured. The Governments were not always in the strongest place by appearing to criticise either or both Sinn Féin and the DUP for the failure to restore the Assembly for three years, in circumstances where the two Governments had failed in their responsibilities.
Yes, I recognise the limitations in the NDNA. The problem is that some of those limitations are being translated into statute here. The promise is that this legislation is there to give stability and sustainability, but rather than blocking instability, there is a danger that it locks in a sort of zombie Executive and creates difficulties between parties, as well as creating difficulties in which the Secretary of State can be implicated. I think that the more we get into those sorts of difficulties, the harder things are.
This Bill does not rescue us from the sorts of absurdities that might emerge with possible election results at the next Assembly election. With a bit of speculation as to the different strengths of different parties, you could have very serious difficulties trying to appoint the First Minster and Deputy First Minister, as provided for in the St Andrews agreement, due to the random nature of the electoral results in terms of the number of Assembly seats. Those seats determine who has the prescribed right to nominate the First Minister and who has the prescribed right to nominate the Deputy First Minister. It becomes a real problem, and that will be a problem that discolours a lot of the election debate. It is going to bring people into all sorts of difficulties due to technical voting, tribalistic voting and all sorts of other things. We should be free of that. We should be trying to correct the St Andrews damage there, and I make no apology for that.
I think that proposed new paragraphs (e), (f) and (l), set out in clause 4(1), provide useful additions to the ministerial code in relation to good community relations and equality of opportunity, and also in relation to public appointments, civil service appointments and the code of conduct for special advisers. Those are useful additions, although I do not know whether there is a particular reason why some of the original terms of the code of conduct are now being omitted. For instance, one requires Ministers at all times to
“ensure all reasonable requests for information from the Assembly, users of services and individual citizens are complied with; and that Departments and their staff conduct their dealings with the public in an open and responsible way”.
That seems to have been omitted for the first time, and I do not know why.
Similarly, there are references elsewhere in the original version to users of services, but there is now no reference to users of services in the ministerial code of conduct. Even some of the opening language in the original version has been changed. It had required Ministers
“to observe the highest standards of propriety and regularity involving impartiality, integrity and objectivity in relationship to the stewardship of public funds”.
The opening language in the new version is arguably weaker. I am not aware of which parties either argued for or agreed that weakening of language.
Mr Walker
Q
Overall, this should be a strengthening of the ministerial code, alongside some of the other mechanisms to enhance the stability of the Executive. This is about trying to support them. I would agree with your evidence and that of the former permanent secretary, but what we all want to see is good will from all parties to keep the Executive fully functioning and to avoid a situation in which these mechanisms are required. It is very important that we see that.
With regard to the possibility of what you called a zombie Executive—the Opposition talked about caretaker Ministers—do you accept, given the experience that we had during the long period of the absence of the Executive, with civil servants really being put in an impossible position, that it is useful during any potential period of interregnum to have a Minister in place who is able to take decisions within their departmental remit, to allow for some accountability within that, on the basis of the programme for government on which they were originally put in place? That would allow for continuity of departmental decisions and give some cover to their civil servants in a future period in which we might be without a First Minister and Deputy First Minister.
Mark Durkan: I take that point, Minister, but you said “some cover”. Given that the decisions are not meant to be on matters that are significant or controversial, some cover might be quite limited. Some of the difficulties and frustrations that the civil servants had in the previous period of abeyance could equally apply, but they would have Ministers who are not at full power or status and who may not have the benefit of actually operating inside an actual Executive, in those terms. It will be a pretty limp-along situation. It will be a sort of twilight zone, both politically and administratively.
I know you will say that, with the roll-over periods and things like that, there are options for the Assembly, and that if the position becomes completely unsustainable, in terms of cross-community support, there is the power for the Secretary of State to intervene to call an election. However, I think we need to recognise that we are providing for a series of episodic crises and anomalies that can happen under this legislation. In Northern Ireland, people have a habit of being able to conjure up all sorts of problems and interpretive misapplications of provisions to create particular problems. We have seen that previously in relation to provisions of the agreement or in subsequent legislation. As I say, I do not expect that there could ever be perfection in a Bill like this, because there is a hole in the bucket, dear Liza, and people keep coming up against some of the same problems, no matter how many patches or solutions we come up with.
However, I think we need to recognise that this imperfection means that it probably will not be very long after the next Assembly election until you will be looking at possibly more remedial legislation to deal with the probably untenable situation that might exist around the St Andrews provisions for the appointment of First Ministers. I think it would be better to correct that now. I think it is in all parties’ interests that that is corrected, in terms of equalising the title of the offices of First and Deputy First Ministers, and also restoring the joint election by the Assembly, and maybe relying not only on parallel consent but on other measures of cross-community support. I think that would safeguard the atmosphere around the election debate and would safeguard the choices of the public from being pulled into all sorts of tactical voting considerations owing to a pretty tribalistic agenda around the totemic significance, supposedly, of the title of First Minister, which should not be a singular title.
The Chair
Mark, even though I dare say that the Minister wants to continue the questioning, we cannot; you have, in fact, used up the 15 minutes we gained, and we are due to finish hearing your evidence at 4 o’clock. We thank you very much indeed for the time you spent with us this afternoon. I know I speak for everyone when I say that I wish you well.
Mark Durkan: Thank you, Sir David.
Gavin Robinson
Q
Alex Maskey: First of all, as you know, the Speaker has the role of verifying or confirming whether a Bill is competent in the first instance, before it is introduced. Once it is introduced, I would refer that to the Human Rights Commission. The Assembly also has the right, which was exercised recently, to vote to make sure we do refer something; it is a bit of an additional belt-and-braces provision. The Assembly can vote to refer a Bill or a measure to the Human Rights Commission at the outset, so it would always be referred in the first instance to the legal team, who would look at it from a perspective of rights, as well as considering all other matters of competence. Of course, additionally, we then refer it to the Human Rights Commission. The provisions are there, and they are acted on in each and every case.
Mr Walker
Q
Alex Maskey: I certainly hope that anything that we do would lead to that outcome. As I said at our meeting, Minister, with the political will, we can resolve most of the matters, if not all of them. Unfortunately, occasionally we have not been able to resolve matters, including, as I said, when it came to an Opposition Bill passed a number of years ago; it was put forward by John McCallister. There was no cross-community agreement to enact a Standing Order to apply that. That might seem odd or unusual, and it probably is, but the fact of the matter is that we did not get an agreement.
At our meeting and in correspondence, we addressed the fact that the first item of business of an Assembly is electing the Speakers. With the six-week ruling, and the six-week period of delay envisaged in the Bill, theoretically, the Assembly could meet after six weeks, and if it could not be formed at that time or could not fill the offices, then it could close down for the next six weeks, but if we do not get a Speaker in place—if we do not have that agreement—we cannot even move to that point. With political agreement and common sense, you would imagine we could resolve these matters. We have only drawn attention to these matters on a cautionary basis because of our experiences; in the past, we have not even been able to pass a number of important matters on the basis of cross-community support.
Since taking up my post, I have routinely been on record reminding Members that we have a very important job to do, as guardians of the legislature, in holding the Executive to account. However, it is also by way of being our business to secure and try to maintain public confidence in the institutions. If we can do anything to maintain the sustainability of the institutions on the basis of the integrity of NDNA and previous agreements reached, I think we will be doing a good job. Anything that helps us to perform our duties in a way that maintains and builds public confidence, we need to embrace.
Mr Walker
Q
Alex Maskey: That is the conundrum that we have to face. I am absolutely certain that the very best way of conducting our business is by doing it ourselves and by the Assembly performing its duties on a mature basis. Unfortunately, on more than one occasion, that has not been able to happen on the basis that we would have liked, but that is politics. As you know, there are many issues that are quite divisive and polarising in our politics at times. I still would say that I have been very pleased, notwithstanding the very challenging difficulties that we have had to face in the past year and more, that the Assembly, for the most part, has performed its duties well and professionally and the level of debate and so on has been mature enough. There have been one or two breaches of good order and all the rest of that, but I think that, for the most part, the Assembly has come through the difficulties and trials pretty well. We have still a lot of work to do. Yes, I agree with that entirely, and I certainly want to work through the rest of this mandate on the basis that the Assembly parties are fully understanding of the need to build confidence among the general public by doing our work professionally and maturely.
Mr Walker
Q
“The Speaker and the three Deputy Speakers shall not sign a Petition.”
How do you interpret that? You expressed concern about being able to recruit Deputy Speakers. Can you give the Committee any further evidence as to that? Has that been a challenge? To what extent has the willingness of parties to put forward their Members as a Deputy Speaker been a challenge to date?
Alex Maskey: As I have said, no party at this moment in time can trigger a POC itself, because it does not have the 30 Members. Therefore, parties may be reluctant and there would be some little amount of chit-chat around the corridors—not that I have heard it recently. But when I was in the business of being involved in chit-chat around the corridors as a party activist—I do not operate on that basis now, of course—there would have been people thinking, “God, would you want to lose a Member”—people would describe it in those terms—“by putting them in as a Speaker if they are not able to sign a POC?” You also have some Members who would feel very passionate about particular issues and who might want to support a POC if one were to be deployed at some point in the future.
We are merely drawing attention to the fact that the Deputy Speakers in our Assembly function differently from how the Speakers in Westminster, for example, do, as I understand it. Our Deputy Speakers function as a Deputy Speaker when they are chairing a session; for the rest of the time, they actually operate as party political activists. It is only the Speaker in this case—in the Assembly—who would be prohibited, throughout the entire mandate, from signing any petition of concern; and that is as it should be, of course. I am just drawing that to your attention and that of the Committee today. It is just because we do not want to cause chill factors; we want to make sure we can draw on as wide a range of Members across the Assembly as possible, to make sure we have inclusive arrangements made, from the Speaker through to the Principal Deputy Speaker and the two Deputy Speakers.
Mr Walker
Q
Dr McGrath: I think that that self-evidently would be the case. It is also the case that uniquely in this mandate, and partially because of the reduction in the number of Members, no political party has the number of signatures required to table a petition of concern, so by definition, at the moment, a party requires the support of either independent Members or Members from another party to do that. It is the practice now—there have been no petitions of concern in the current mandate. I am not saying that the two are related, but I am saying that it is more difficult to see a scenario in future—obviously, without trying to forecast electoral outcomes—in which a party would have the required number of Members.
Mr Walker
Q
Dr McGrath: To revert to the issue that was originally raised by the Speaker, clearly the intention of the consideration period, as I understand it, is to allow a cooling-off period and room for manoeuvre among the political parties. It may well start off with that intention. However, there would be scenarios in which it could evidently be used to stymie progress on issues for which the petition of concern was not intended.
It is one thing to have the provision in the Act, but trying to implement it in Standing Orders is a different matter. Standing Orders have to be passed on a cross-community basis so there is no guarantee that just because this Bill requires Standing Orders to make provision for that, it will happen. That is a statement of fact on the basis of legislation, as Mr Speaker said previously, that the Assembly has passed requiring Standing Orders to make provision for, and that has not happened. In that situation, the Speaker will be required to rule on whatever is referred to as interim procedures. That will inevitably put the Speaker in a difficult position.
Northern Ireland (Ministers, Elections and Petitions of Concern) Bill
Robin Walker ExcerptsTuesday 22nd June 2021
(2 years, 10 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Northern Ireland (Ministers, Elections and Petitions of Concern) Act 2022 View all Northern Ireland (Ministers, Elections and Petitions of Concern) Act 2022 Debates Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Robin Walker)
It is a great pleasure to respond to such a well-informed debate and I pay tribute to all the Members who have taken time to speak this afternoon. As the hon. Member for Pontypridd (Alex Davies-Jones) said, Members from across the House have spoken with real passion and experience.
I am very grateful for the support we have heard from all parties for the Second Reading of the Bill. I recognise that there are a number of issues that people will want to explore in Committee. I look forward to those debates and hope they can be as well informed as this debate has been.
I add my congratulations to the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson) on his election as leader of the DUP. I very much look forward to working with him in the months to come.
As we have heard, the Bill being debated today will implement aspects of the New Decade, New Approach deal, which the parties agreed to in January 2020. We will reform the sustainability of the institutions, updating the ministerial code of conduct and reforming the petition of concern mechanism. These measures were all agreed by the main political parties in Northern Ireland upon restoring the Executive. It was a pleasure to hear from my right hon. Friend the Member for Skipton and Ripon (Julian Smith), the former Secretary of State, who did so much to reach that agreement.
We heard from a number of Members in today’s debate who played a crucial role in securing that deal. I pass on my congratulations to all of them for getting there. We have heard many passionate speeches from all sides, and from all sides of the debate in Northern Ireland, about the importance of devolution. It was the achievement of the deal to restore devolution.
We have made good progress on the delivery of the commitments that the UK Government made under the New Decade, New Approach agreement, which helped to bring that about. We will continue to support the delivery of those commitments. I draw the House’s attention to a few examples beyond the scope of the Bill, such as our support for the resolution of the nurses’ pay dispute by securing an advanced drawdown of funding; the release of £556 million of the £2 billion-worth of funding agreed in the deal; the revision of the immigration rules governing how people in Northern Ireland bring their family members to the UK, which took effect from August 2020; the appointment of a Veterans Commissioner in September 2020; the launch of the programme for the centenary of Northern Ireland in 2021, supported by £1 million from the shared history fund; the establishment of an independent fiscal council; and regulations to bring Union flag flying days in line with guidance for the rest of the UK.
The hon. Member for Pontypridd referred to the Secretary of State’s meetings. He has been meeting regularly with the First Minister and Deputy First Minister in the Executive. There have also been two formal meetings including the Irish Government over that time. Those will continue.
I thank everybody for the contributions we have heard. I will not be able to respond to all of them because I have been asked to keep my remarks to a reasonably short period of time, but I did want to respond to the point that the hon. Member for Pontypridd made about so-called caretaker Ministers, a point that was also reflected on by the right hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper).
As part of NDNA, Ministers will remain in office in a caretaker capacity to allow for greater continuity in decision making, but those Ministers will be required to act, as the hon. Member for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson) made very clear, within well-defined limits, including as set out in the ministerial code and in accordance with the requirement for an Executive Committee to consider any decisions that are significant, controversial and cross-cutting. The hon. Gentleman made the point well; in the case that the Executive Committee is not there, Ministers cannot go beyond their brief. As was also demonstrated by that exchange, there are important decisions that could be taken, which is a much better position than we saw during the period that the hon. Member for Belfast South (Claire Hanna) described as a black hole in governance—during the absence of the devolved institutions. I am sure we can explore the point further in Committee, but there are clearly defined limits on the role of those Ministers.
On the issue of language, we heard many passionate points. This is not, as we all accept, part of the Bill before us today. The hon. Lady asked a fair question: why not, and why not now? I think there is a simple answer to that question, which we have heard a lot about in the debate today, and I think everyone actually agrees that this would be best dealt with in the devolved space. I have met both the Ulster Scots Agency and Conradh na Gaeilge in the last few weeks; apologies if my pronunciation is not right there. I have met some of the key bodies on both sides arguing for progress on the cultural issues, and what they are saying very clearly is that they want to see this delivered by the devolved institutions. We want to give the devolved institutions every chance to do that, and we do not therefore want to legislate on this issue at this time.
Colum Eastwood
I appreciate what the Minister says, and of course this would be better done in the Assembly, but I do not know where he has been, because I have heard very clearly today that the DUP will not support it going through the Assembly on a quick timeframe, so why not now—why wait?
Mr Walker
I have made the point that we want to give every opportunity for that to happen. The Secretary of State has also made this clear, and he did so in a written ministerial statement. I accept the frustration and the anger that the hon. Gentleman expresses on behalf of many of his constituents, but there was a clear written ministerial statement that set out the approach we are taking, and if there is not progress by September, then we have agreed that this House would step in.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean asked a crucial question on this point, and I think it is a very important one about where we do this. The answer should be that we never want to be doing it and we never want to have to do it. The Government believe in empowering and supporting the devolution settlement in Northern Ireland and across the UK. That is why we are bringing forward this Bill to strengthen the stability of the devolution settlement in Northern Ireland. We do not take lightly any decision to intervene in legislation for Northern Ireland, and would only ever do so on devolved issues as a last resort. I agree with my right hon. Friend that it is incumbent on us to support the Executive and the Assembly to legislate for themselves. However, I am sure he would also agree that, as co-guarantors of the NDNA agreement, it is incumbent on us to deliver the package it promises, if necessary, to ensure that can be delivered. The point of the intervention was to get the devolved institutions restored and to get Ministers nominated so that we could have an Executive in place.
Sammy Wilson
I have a list the length of my arm of other issues contained in the New Decade, New Approach document that are not being delivered on. Why does the Minister feel that these cultural issues are a greater priority than dealing with the reforms in the health service and dealing with the waiting list of 350,000 in the health service? Why is he not stepping in to deal with that as a priority, rather than these cultural issues?
Mr Walker
Actually, I very much welcome the fact that the Health Minister has set out the approach to dealing with those issues. As I have said, we have already provided some of the up-front funding to unblock some of the health issues that Northern Ireland was facing in the absence of the Executive, but of course there is more to do on that front.
Mr Walker
The hon. Gentleman, from whom I will take an intervention—he is always a very courteous intervener—has made the point very powerfully about the priorities of his constituents on these issues. These are all devolved issues that we want an Assembly and an Executive in place to deliver on.
Jim Shannon
The Minister is most generous in giving way, and I thank him for that. Does he accept that 100% of the people of Northern Ireland want the health issue sorted out, 100% of the people of Northern Ireland want education sorted out, 100% of the people want police recruited and in place, 100% of the people want the roads issue sorted out as well, and only 5% of those in Northern Ireland actually speak the Irish language? Put it in order of priority. The priorities are health, education and policing, not the Irish language.
Mr Walker
I recognise the point the hon. Gentleman is making, but I think the issue is that these were the areas agreed in NDNA. They were hard-fought, and they were negotiated, as we have heard, very strenuously between the parties. No one got precisely what they wanted, but at the end of the day these were the compromises that were agreed and we need to move forward with them. It is crucial that the Executive are in place to deliver on those issues.
This Bill will help to deliver greater stability and transparency to governance in Northern Ireland.
Mr Walker
I will have to press on, I am afraid. I am under instructions, which my right hon. Friend will understand, from the Whips to get on.
We are looking forward to talking further about the NDNA agreement with the Irish Government during the British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference later this week. I do want to commend this Bill to the House, and I do want to thank those from all sides of this House for the profound case we have heard for having strong devolved institutions in place. That is what all of us want to get on with, and this Bill will help to take that forward.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill accordingly read a Second time.
Northern Ireland (Ministers, Elections and Petitions Of Concern) Bill (Programme)
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 83A(7)),
That the following provisions shall apply to the Northern Ireland (Ministers, Elections and Petitions of Concern) Bill:
Committal
(1) The Bill shall be committed to a Public Bill Committee.
Proceedings in Public Bill Committee
(2) Proceedings in the Public Bill Committee shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion on Thursday 8 July 2021.
(3) The Public Bill Committee shall have leave to sit twice on the first day on which it meets.
Proceedings on Consideration and Third Reading
(4) Proceedings on Consideration shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion one hour before the moment of interruption on the day on which proceedings on Consideration are commenced.
(5) Proceedings on Third Reading shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at the moment of interruption on that day.
(6) Standing Order No. 83B (Programming committees) shall not apply to proceedings on Consideration and Third Reading.
Other proceedings
(7) Any other proceedings on the Bill may be programmed.—(Scott Mann.)
Question agreed to.
Abortion (Northern Ireland) Regulations 2021
Robin Walker Excerpts(3 years ago)
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The Chair
Before we begin, I remind Members to observe social distancing and to sit only in the places clearly marked. I also remind Members that Mr Speaker has stated that masks should be worn in Committee. Hansard would be most grateful if Members could send their speaking notes by email to hansardnotes@parliament.uk.
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Robin Walker)
I beg to move,
That the Committee has considered the Abortion (Northern Ireland) Regulations 2021 (S.I. 2021, No. 365).
I recognise the clear will of the House for the Government to deliver on its statutory duty with respect to access to abortion services in Northern Ireland. It was on the basis of human rights that, during an absence of devolved Government, this House decided that it was time to step in. Colleagues will recall previous debates in 2019 and 2020, and the outcome of those debates. Today’s debate is not about reopening or unpicking the 2020 regulations, but to ensure implementation of the law that has been in place for over a year.
I acknowledge and respect the deeply held views that Members have on this issue, and I am glad that the decision of the usual channels to allow a free vote will allow all Members to vote according to their conscience. As the Committee will be aware, we previously made the Abortion (Northern Ireland) Regulations 2020, which came into force on 31 March 2020, to set out the new legal framework for the provision of abortion services in Northern Ireland.
In March 2020, the Secretary of State wrote to the relevant Northern Ireland Ministers asking them to implement the respective recommendations under paragraphs 85 and 86 of the 2018 United Nations Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination against Women report, an inquiry concerning the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland under article 8 of the optional protocol to the convention on the elimination of all forms of discrimination against women.
It has always been our expectation and preference for the Northern Ireland Department of Health to drive forward the commissioning of abortion services, with the relevant legal powers, policy and operational expertise to do so, and to ensure that abortion becomes normalised and embedded as a healthcare service into the health and social care system in Northern Ireland. Over the past year, the Northern Ireland Office has continued to work closely with the Department of Health and other relevant Northern Ireland Departments, trying to progress that work.
We understand that managing the covid-19 response has been an immense challenge, and has placed the health and social care system in Northern Ireland under considerable pressure. However, over one year later, women and girls are still unable to access high-quality abortion and post-abortion care locally in Northern Ireland. The commissioning of full abortion services, consistent with the conditions set out in the 2020 regulations, has still not happened.
We have been working since the 2020 regulations came into effect to ensure that the duties under section 9 of the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019 can be implemented in full at the earliest opportunity. I recognise that some abortion services have been provided since April 2020, and more than 1,100 abortions have taken place in Northern Ireland, but that falls far short of what is required by law. Services have not been formally commissioned, supported or funded by the Northern Ireland Department of Health, and there has been no guidance issued or official support measures put in place.
At the heart of this matter are the women and girls in Northern Ireland who have been, and continue to be, denied the same reproductive rights as women in the rest of the UK. Throughout the covid-19 pandemic, some women and girls have still been forced to travel to England. I have learned of the distress and the unacceptable circumstances that they continue to face at a time when local access should be readily available, given that the law was changed by this Parliament over a year ago. The ongoing covid situation and limitations on travel make it even more important that local access to services is available, and for the current services to be properly supported by the Department of Health, particularly as women should not be forced to choose to travel or to resort to unsafe or unregulated measures at this time.
The Secretary of State takes his statutory duties very seriously, and recognises that the current impasse is unacceptable. That is why we have made these further regulations. The Abortion (Northern Ireland) Regulations 2021, which came into force on 31 March 2021, will provide the Secretary of State with the power to direct a Northern Ireland Minister, the Northern Ireland Department of Health, the Health and Social Care Board and the Public Health Agency to take the action necessary to implement all the recommendations in paragraphs 85 and 86 of the CEDAW report. I draw the Committee’s attention to the wording of the regulations, which makes it clear that this is also a binding direction on the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister of the Northern Ireland Executive.
We recognise that this is a big step, but it is a crucial one. We have given the Department of Health and the Executive plenty of time to move forward, and we have engaged extensively to see how we could best support delivery, but those efforts have not so far given us results. I have already begun engaging with Minister Swann and his Department again, and I have communicated to him that the Secretary of State is clear that the Department of Health must take concrete steps towards the commissioning of abortion services in Northern Ireland in advance of the summer recess. I have asked my officials to work closely with the Department of Health to ensure that urgent progress is made on this issue. I would welcome the Executive’s considering a full proposal for commissioning, but we need to see movement coming forward. The Secretary of State stands ready, if we do not see significant progress before the summer recess, to issue the direction empowered by these regulations.
We recognise that this is a sensitive and personal issue for many people. Indeed, we have heard many differing views across this House, as well as from Members in the Northern Ireland Assembly, in relation to abortion, including in the context of the debates and the reports under the EF Act. However, women should not be forced to choose to travel, or to resort to unsafe and unregulated measures, when the law is in place to ensure that services are in place for Northern Ireland.
Although I recognise the range of passionately held views on this issue, support for the new regulations is clearly evident. The all-party parliamentary group on sexual and reproductive health in the UK, 88 cross-party MPs and 24 representative organisations for the women’s and LGBTQ sector in Northern Ireland have written letters to the Northern Ireland Minister of Health, urging him to take action on the issue.
I place on record my thanks to the medical professionals who have ensured that women and girls have had some access to local abortion services in Northern Ireland to date, and to the organisations that have supported this work, including Informing Choices NI, for providing a pathway to abortion and counselling services, particularly in the current circumstances and amid the wider strains on the health system. I would also like to pay tribute to the late Professor Jim Dornan, a leader in his field and a passionate advocate for health issues such as cancer and women’s reproductive rights.
It is our firm view that the regulations made in 2020 provide a legislative framework that is operationally sound, works best for Northern Ireland and delivers on the Government’s statutory duty. Those regulations were consulted on and sought to meet the requirements of CEDAW in a way that would bring outcomes for women and girls in Northern Ireland into line with the rest of the UK. That is why we do not intend to amend the regulations. We are here today to do everything we can to demonstrate how committed we are to fulfilling the Government’s statutory obligations and ensuring that women and girls in Northern Ireland have access to high-quality abortion and post-abortion care in Northern Ireland, consistent with the conditions set out in the 2020 regulations.
As right hon. and hon. Members will be aware, abortion remains a devolved issue, and the Assembly can seek to amend regulations in a way that remains compliant with convention rights. We recognise the sensitivities of these issues and the concerns from, for instance, those who have suggested that sex selection could be an issue. We take the matter very seriously, but sex selection is not one of the grounds on which abortion is allowed under the 2020 regulations, and we will be clear in guidance that that is the case. We also recognise that this will be an important matter for the Department of Health to consider in the guidance that it produces alongside the full commissioning of services, as well as factors that medical professionals should be looking out for so that they can raise any safeguarding concerns.
I commend these regulations to the Committee.
Sir John Hayes
I would never say that all MPs are completely stupid, as you know, Mr Hosie, but if my hon. Friend does not value as highly as he ought to the 1998 Act and the devolution settlement that arose from the Good Friday agreement, perhaps he will recognise two other pieces of law that are directly pertinent to our considerations.
The first is the 2005 agreement, whereby the devolved constitutional settlement in Northern Ireland established the consent for constitutional change, described as a fundamental principle of devolution. It made clear that in terms of constitutional change it was essential that the Northern Ireland Assembly took a view, and indeed made a decision, that was consistent with anything that this Parliament did. That is the underlying principle of consent in the devolved arrangement.
Moreover—I know my hon. Friend will have read his papers very closely before coming to the Committee—the Delegated Legislation Committee that looked at the matters before us made it very clear that what we are being asked to do today is entirely exceptional in terms of the devolution settlement for Northern Ireland or anywhere else in the United Kingdom. Unprecedented was the word that the Committee that studied the regulations before they came to us used to describe them.
It is unacceptable to argue that because we took a decision when there was no Assembly, now that the Assembly has been re-established, we should ride roughshod over the view that it took and that it takes about the issue. It is inexcusable that the explanatory memorandum should suggest that the new regulations, which are so much wider than the 2020 regulations, should depend on the consultation process for the 2020 regulations, which in any event was sharply criticised as being far too short and deeply controversial.
Having had a deeply controversial and inadequate consultation process for the first regulations, we have now introduced regulations that are more wide ranging and that could, as my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge suggested, lead to—
Sir John Hayes
Before I give way to the Minister, I pay personal tribute to him, because he has been incredibly courteous throughout; I have had many exchanges with him on the matter. I know that his personal views on these matters are not a million miles from mine, but I do not want to embarrass him by saying more than that. The truth is that he knows that with these regulations there is a possibility of us ending up with, rather than a circumstance whereby the availability of abortion in Northern Ireland is equivalent to that in the other parts of the United Kingdom, a circumstance, as my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge said, whereby abortion in Northern Ireland is offered more permissively than elsewhere. Perhaps he can correct me.
Mr Walker
I am very happy to correct my right hon. Friend on that point. I am certainly happy that we have had constructive engagement, and I hope that all Members on both sides of the House, and on both sides of the debate, will recognise the willingness to engage on these issues.
May I come back to my right hon. Friend’s suggestion that today’s regulations are wider in some way than the 2020 regulations? This is simply about the implementation of the 2020 regulations. Today’s regulations make no change whatever to them; they are simply about ensuring that what the House put into law in 2020 is delivered.
Sir John Hayes
The Minister says that, but it is clear from reading the regulations that, in certain circumstances, abortion can take place up to birth and that the 1967 Act’s insistence on two medical practitioners authorising abortion will not necessarily apply in Northern Ireland. I regard both those things as a more permissive application of the law than the one that pertains.
The 1967 Act may well be applied in theory more than in practice—I should not want to comment on that—but at the very least the risk of the more permissive regime that my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge described concerns the people of Northern Ireland, who fear that what is imposed on them might not only go against the expressed will of the people, but be altogether worse than that.
The hon. Member for Walthamstow made it perfectly clear that the essence of the argument used when the law was passed was that as there was no Assembly we had to act. She argued:
“I understand that, if it was not for the fact that we do not have an Assembly, this would absolutely not be the right way forward”.—[Official Report, 9 July 2019; Vol. 663, c. 183.]
That is what she said, with not a great deal of elegance; none the less, her point is made: it would absolutely “not be the right way forward.”
If it was “not the right way forward”, why on earth have we continued to pursue this path? When the Assembly was reformed, with a new Government, we had an opportunity to think again. It would not have been a huge step, given that the Assembly had the chance to vote on the matter. It has all the appearance of the Government dictating their will and of Parliament insisting that devolution counts only when the devolved Assemblies agree with people here. That is not something that you, Mr Hosie, I nor any democrat in this place could possibly sanction.
We must think too about the consequences for the Union and the continuing pertinence and relevance of devolution. If people in Northern Ireland come to believe what I have suggested—that their right to self-government is condoned by a Parliament that is so arrogant that it says that when they do not agree with the prevailing view here their rights can be torn away from them—how can they possibly continue to believe in the settlement or, indeed, even in the Union?
I was recently contacted by a clergyman from County Fermanagh, who decried the regulations as the final nail in the coffin of devolution. Indeed, an open letter was sent to the Prime Minister from 250 church leaders opposing today’s proposals. On at least four occasions, we have actively ignored the expressed will of Northern Ireland’s representatives on a matter of great importance to many in the Province. First, as has been noted, on 19 July 100% of Northern Ireland Members who take their seats voted against the process that resulted in section 9—a Northern Ireland-only provision on a devolved matter. Let me repeat that: a Northern Ireland-only provision on a devolved matter—a matter expressly devolved to Northern Ireland, yet it was imposed despite that opposition from Members who hold a specific mandate to represent the people there. At that moment we told the people of Northern Ireland that the voices of those elected to represent them would be ignored, and their history and deeply held views on this matter of conscience disregarded. By extension, we told the people of Northern Ireland that their opinion did not matter.
Secondly, we ignored the voice of the people of Northern Ireland in the consultation on the 2020 regulations, in which 79% of participants said they did not want the measure to proceed—seventy-nine per cent. is an even greater percentage than I managed to secure of the vote in South Holland and The Deepings—not much greater, but somewhat.
Thirdly, we ignored the voices of the people of Northern Ireland when we insisted on welcoming the restoration of the Northern Ireland Assembly while simultaneously ignoring its clear vote last year to reject the 2020 regulations. We now seek to forsake them again by forgoing further public consultation on the new regulations, at a time when the Assembly is working as intended, providing extensive and conscientious scrutiny of an imposed policy of the utmost sensitivity and profound local concern.
Mr Walker
Thank you, Mr Hosie, for your patient chairmanship of the Committee.
We have heard a wide range of strongly held personal views and varied contributions on all aspects of the regulations from Members representing all parties. I thank the hon. Member for Pontypridd, who speaks for the Opposition, for her constructive approach to the debate and our previous engagement on the issue. I particularly commend the speeches of my right hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke; the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North, who has spoken passionately on the issue for a long time; my hon. Friend the Member for Bexhill and Battle; and the hon. Member for Bristol South, who used to face me across the Committee.
My closing remarks will address several of the points made during the debate. I recognise the strength of the speeches of the hon. Member for Upper Bann, my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone and Stockbridge, and my right hon. Friend the Member for South Holland and The Deepings, who is never knowingly understated, but who, as ever, spoke powerfully.
While some people might wish to use the opportunity to reopen the discussion on the framework established by the 2020 regulations, as my right hon. Friend the Member for South Holland and The Deepings did for a large part of his speech, that time has passed and we are focused on ensuring that the legal right of women and girls to access full abortion services in Northern Ireland is implemented. Let me be absolutely clear that we are not proposing to repeal section 9 of the EF Act. Although we have heard in the debate from some who would like to do that, they are in a small minority in the House and in the Conservative party. As my hon. Friend the Member for Bexhill and Battle pointed out, there was a five to one majority in favour of the Act, as amended. It remains our preference that, this now being the law of the United Kingdom, the Department of Health should drive forward the commissioning of abortion services, with the support of the Executive, and we will continue to work to see whether progress can be made on the ground in Northern Ireland before the Secretary of State has to consider issuing a direction.
We all recognise that abortion is a hugely emotive subject, but we must not lose sight of the women and girls in Northern Ireland who are at the heart of the matter. It is unacceptable that there are women and girls in any part of the United Kingdom who cannot access these fundamental rights. That is a decision that was taken by the House of Commons in enacting the previous regulations and the EF Act. Even though the law was changed 12 months ago, services have still not been commissioned in full, leaving many women and girls in vulnerable situations.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke made clear the concerns of health professionals at the lack of commissioning. I thank the Northern Ireland abortion and contraception taskforce for its report. The CEDAW report and its recommendations require that evidence-based protocols are adopted in the provision of services in Northern Ireland. The Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists has also published guidance to help medical professionals. I strongly urge the Department of Health to engage with both groups on the practical issues outlined in their reports.
I have spoken personally to many women and healthcare professionals in Northern Ireland, and some of their experiences are truly harrowing. Many women and girls still have to travel to other parts of the United Kingdom to access the care that should be available to them. One story of which I was informed was of a wanted pregnancy where, sadly, doctors told the mother that the baby would not survive outside the womb. The woman had to travel to London without a network of family support in order to access abortion care. She described to me a harrowing ordeal—unable to travel back on a flight home because of complications with bleeding, stranded in London, alone, grieving and in pain. I have also been made aware that two women have attempted suicide in the past year after their flights were cancelled and they were unable to travel to England.
The distress and the circumstances that women and girls continue to face when local access should be readily available, given that the law changed over a year ago, are unacceptable. It is only right that women and girls in Northern Ireland can make individual, informed decisions with proper patient care and provision of information, and with support from medical professionals, based on their own health and other circumstances—similar to women and girls living elsewhere in the UK.
The right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North made an important point about funding for voluntary services. I have made it clear that we would expect to see that in place before the summer recess so that we can avoid the use of a direction. We want the Executive to move forward on it.
We have heard understandable concerns about respecting the importance of the devolved institutions. I have been clear repeatedly about our desire to work with the Executive, the Department of Health and the Assembly to ensure that the regulations are implemented effectively in a way that works for Northern Ireland, but, after more than a year, it has become clear that without further steps being taken, that would not happen. Even at this stage, we do not wish to have to use the power of direction and we will pause, following the conclusion of the Committee, to give the Department of Health another opportunity to implement the regulations. If we see real evidence of commissioning of a CEDAW-compliant regime, and support for the provision of advice and guidance ahead of the summer, there is no reason a direction should be required. If we do not, we will have no choice other than to meet our legal obligations.
We have already given the Executive and the Department of Health a year to move forward with commissioning services, following the abortion regulations coming into effect last March, and we are disappointed that no progress has been made. We continue to give the Executive, the Minister of Health and his Department further time to move forward on their own terms. Should the Committee approve the regulations on the power of direction, we will pause and give them one final opportunity to make progress on commissioning services. However, we will not let progress be drawn out indefinitely.
We want to see concrete progress towards the commissioning of abortion services before the summer recess. If that is not achieved, we will not hesitate to issue a direction immediately so that the rights of women and girls are properly upheld, and they can have safe and lawful access to abortion services in Northern Ireland.
I have been asked to estimate the number of people who have had to travel. I note that over 1,100 women and girls have been able to access local services since April last year. That should not be overlooked when services have not been formally commissioned. We have seen a significant reduction in the number of women and girls having to travel over the past nine to 12 months, and we appreciate that, while covid has played a part in that, the change to the law in Northern Ireland and local access have also been key.
We expect that the Department of Health and Social Care will publish the figures for people who have had to travel as standard practice over the coming months. Tempting though it is, I do not wish to estimate—I want the figures. We know that the number is significantly lower than before, but any number at this stage is too many.
Karin Smyth
I appreciate the difficulty, but that is really disappointing. Coming out of the pandemic, flights are beginning to be scheduled, but they are getting more expensive, and it will be more difficult for women to travel as families try to reunite across these islands and society begins to reopen. It will be another four to five months—between now and some point in the summer, if something happens—with really difficult travelling circumstances and more women in distress. Is that date as much as we can get from the Minister today?
Mr Walker
I recognise the strength of the hon. Lady’s feelings and the fact that she is pushing for the most rapid delivery. It is our preference that the Executive and the Minister of Health move forward with this at once, and that they act on what is already in place so that the requirement to travel can be removed as soon as possible. We want to give the Executive every opportunity to do this themselves without being directed, so there will be a pause.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke made an important point about education. She is right that the CEDAW report’s requirements, the regulations and the EF Act require us to go beyond the area of health. Sexual and reproductive health education is an important component in ensuring that women and girls are well informed of the choices available to them. One of the recommendations in the CEDAW report, which we must ensure is implemented, is to make age-appropriate, comprehensive and scientifically accurate education on sexual and reproductive health and rights a compulsory component of the curriculum for adolescents, covering the prevention of early pregnancy and access to abortion, and to monitor its implementation.
The implementation of that recommendation falls into an area for which Northern Ireland’s Department of Education has responsibility. We have written to the Minister and continue to work with the Department to ensure appropriate implementation in Northern Ireland, but I would point out that the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission, as part of its work for this year and in accordance with that recommendation, will publish a report on the provision of education services in Northern Ireland.
The right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North asked about telemedicine. As she will recognise, the temporary approval made in England under the abortion legislation Act cannot be extended to Northern Ireland, but the power was placed in legislation to enable the Northern Ireland Minister of Health to consider other appropriate settings. In this jurisdiction, during the covid situation, that power has been used under UK legislation. I have certainly urged the Minister to consider that, but it needs to be looked at as part of the wider package of the Executive and the Department of Health accepting their responsibilities for this and using the powers available to them.
My right hon. Friend the Member for South Holland and The Deepings mentioned the Constitution Committee. I recognise that, to some extent, we are in unprecedented territory, but I agree with the Committee’s conclusion that the UK Government and the Northern Ireland Executive should engage in a constructive manner. The Secretary of State is under a clear legal duty under section 9 of the EF Act to ensure that all the CEDAW recommendations are implemented in Northern Ireland—a duty that was placed on him by the House of Commons. However, we have been repeatedly clear about our desire to work with the Executive, the Department of Health and the Assembly to ensure that the regulations are implemented effectively in a way that works for Northern Ireland. It remains our preference for them to deliver on that and to move forward with the full commissioning of services in line with the regulations. That is why we are giving them every opportunity to act on the matter.
I conclude by saying that I have no desire to be here today. Like the hon. Member for Bristol South, I cannot believe that we are here again. The House set out the law and delivered a single compliant set of regulations for Northern Ireland over a year ago. At every stage, we have sought to get those regulations delivered through the proper devolved channels, and the power that the regulations will grant provides a mechanism to unblock the political obstacles that have been placed in the way of their delivery. I therefore commend the regulations to the Committee.
Question put,
Oral Answers to Questions
Robin Walker Excerpts(3 years, 2 months ago)
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Mark Eastwood (Dewsbury) (Con)
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Robin Walker)
Since the start of the pandemic, the UK Government have worked closely with the Northern Ireland Executive to ensure the safety of the people in Northern Ireland. Vaccines are our way out of the pandemic, and the Secretary of State and I continue to hold regular discussions with Cabinet colleagues in the Northern Ireland Executive on this important issue. The Government have procured vaccines on behalf of all parts of the United Kingdom and are working with the devolved Administrations to ensure that they are deployed fairly across the UK. I am pleased to see that vaccine doses have been successfully administered to more than half a million people in Northern Ireland.
Mark Eastwood [V]
In Dewsbury, Mirfield, Kirkburton and Denby Dale, the roll-out of the vaccine has been a huge success thanks to the amazing work put in by North Kirklees and Greater Huddersfield clinical commissioning groups, and we appear to be well on track to hit the mid-April target for vaccinating cohorts 1 to 9. Will the Minister reassure the people of Northern Ireland that the target will also be met there, ensuring that we come out this pandemic as one United Kingdom?
Mr Walker
My hon. Friend is right about this being a United Kingdom effort, and I congratulate his local clinical commissioning groups on what they are doing. When I visited the Worcester vaccination centre, I was pleased to be met by an ex-military logistics officer from Belfast—that shows the contribution that Northern Ireland is making to the UK roll-out. As of Monday 1 March, 558,000 vaccines have been administered to more than 29% of Northern Ireland’s population, including 525,000 first doses. Every step of the way, the UK Government work closely with the devolved Administrations, and I thank and commend those in the Department of Health, the local health trusts and the Executive who have helped to deliver such progress.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
The vaccine roll-out is a great achievement, not just for the Minister here but for all the Ministers from the devolved Administrations, because we are part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland—better together. In less than two weeks, at 16:40 on 15 March, I will receive the vaccine at the Ulster Hospital when my opportunity on the list comes round.
On supply, will the Minister further outline what discussions have taken place with regard to the needs of rural isolated communities, which will need dedicated clinics because they will find it difficult to make it to the centralised locations for the vaccine roll-out?
Mr Walker
We all welcome the news that the hon. Gentleman has waited his turn and got an appointment to receive a vaccine. He raises an important point. Although of course the delivery of the vaccine in Northern Ireland is primarily a matter for the Department of Health in Northern Ireland, we will continue to work closely with it to support the vaccine roll-out to all communities, including those in remote and rural areas.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
Greg Smith (Buckingham) (Con)
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Robin Walker)
This Government will always do what they can to champion Northern Ireland tourism, which in normal times includes major sporting events. I know that the Northern Ireland Economy Minister was giving consideration to hosting the world rally championship, for which the hon. Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley) has been a strong champion in the House. The Government will happily support the Executive should they decide to proceed with funding the event, but ultimately, this is a matter for the Executive.
Greg Smith [V]
I thank my hon. Friend for that answer. The United Kingdom proudly sits at the heart of global motorsports, having hosted a round of the world rally championship virtually every year since its inception in 1973. Does my hon. Friend agree with me that it is important that the UK continues to host a round of that championship, and will he do everything possible to work with the Northern Ireland Executive and all parties involved to see a round of the WRC hosted in Northern Ireland in the coming years?
Mr Walker
I wish my hon. Friend a happy birthday, and I welcome the points he makes about the UK’s leadership in the space of motorsports. I think Northern Ireland would produce an excellent backdrop for hosting an event of that sort, and I would be very happy to continue to work to support the Executive in that regard with any future bids.
John Spellar (Warley) (Lab)
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Robin Walker)
The Secretary of State and I have regular conversations with ministerial colleagues regarding transport connections, which are particularly important for Northern Ireland given its unique position. Connectivity across the UK is vital to fuel Northern Ireland’s economic recovery and strengthen the Union. The Prime Minister commissioned a Union connectivity review to consider these important connections, including the feasibility of a fixed link between Northern Ireland and Great Britain.
John Spellar
In those discussions, could the Minister not get together with the Department for Transport and point out the huge cost, the geological problems and the inconvenient reality that Britain and Ireland operate on a different rail gauge? Is it not time to dump this project at an early stage, along with the garden bridge, into the bin and save a lot of money, effort and probably a few column inches in articles?
Oral Answers to Questions
Robin Walker Excerpts(3 years, 5 months ago)
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Jane Stevenson (Wolverhampton North East) (Con)
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Robin Walker)
The Secretary of State and I have regular conversations with ministerial colleagues regarding transport connections, which are particularly important for Northern Ireland, given its unique geography. The recently announced independent Union connectivity review will consider how connectivity across the UK can support economic growth. Both the Secretary of State and I have met Sir Peter Hendy and look forward to hearing his recommendations in the summer.
John Lamont
Does the Minister agree that good transport links between all parts of the United Kingdom are vital, and it is therefore extremely disappointing that the Scottish Government are refusing to engage with the Union connectivity review, thereby depriving my constituents of good transport links in all parts of Scotland and better links with other parts of the United Kingdom?
Mr Walker
I wholeheartedly agree with my hon. Friend. Every part of the United Kingdom can benefit from investment in our shared infrastructure and connectivity. Unwillingness to engage with the review risks Scotland missing out, and I would certainly urge the Scottish Government to rethink. They should follow the example of the Minister for Infrastructure in the Northern Ireland Executive, who has been engaging constructively with the review.
Jane Stevenson
My father left Northern Ireland in the 1950s and settled in Wolverhampton, which has a large Northern Irish community. It is the same for many communities across Great Britain, including in Scotland. Does the Minister agree that excellent transport links to Northern Ireland are absolutely crucial, and will he make that clear to Sir Peter Hendy as part of the Union connectivity review?
Mr Walker
My hon. Friend makes an excellent point, and I recognise, having many Irish and Northern Irish constituents myself, that it is vital that there are excellent transport links across the Irish Sea for trade, for tourism, for the Union and to bring families together. The review will make recommendations on how best to improve connectivity across the UK, including across the Irish Sea, and in the long term certainly we will be making that case to the review.
Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)
The main threat to our connectivity between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom over the winter is the unprofitability of airlines due to the covid restrictions. In the medium term, new routes need to be opened to business centres in Europe. Can the Secretary of State give an assurance that he will discuss with the Treasury, first, the reduction or suspension of air passenger duty for a limited period of time and, secondly, what help can be given to opening new routes between Northern Ireland and business centres in Europe?
Mr Walker
The Secretary of State and I work closely with colleagues across Government and in the Executive to support the Northern Ireland economy and make the case on air connectivity. There have been discussions with the Department for Transport and, indeed, the Treasury on those matters. As the right hon. Gentleman knows, the Treasury is reviewing the air passenger duty issue.
Mr Shailesh Vara (North West Cambridgeshire) (Con)
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Robin Walker)
The Government and the devolved Administrations continue to work closely together to ensure a co-ordinated approach across the United Kingdom. As set out in our joint statement of 25 September, the UK Government and the devolved Administrations hold a
“shared commitment to suppressing the virus to the lowest possible level and keeping it there”.
Today’s news about a vaccine will be welcomed across every part of the United Kingdom. I was pleased we could agree a united approach to Christmas planning last week. Although each devolved Administration control their public health policy, we have been co-ordinating positively on our response to covid throughout the year.
Mr Vara
Coronavirus knows no boundaries, and it is absolutely vital that the UK Government, the Irish Government and the Northern Ireland Assembly work together to deal with it. Does my hon. Friend agree that it is absolutely crucial that we have effective co-operation—north-south and east-west—and a co-ordinated approach to dealing with this pandemic?
Mr Walker
I strongly endorse the words of my hon. Friend. This Government are determined to work together with the Northern Irish Executive and the Irish Government to ensure that measures safeguard the health and wellbeing of UK and Irish citizens. There is an existing memorandum of understanding between the chief medical officers for Northern Ireland and for Ireland, which formalises co-ordination and co-operation between the Irish Government and the Northern Ireland Executive in relation to covid-19. The Secretary of State continues to hold regular discussions with the First Minister and Deputy First Minister, as well as the Irish Government, to co-operate on covid issues.
Paul Girvan (South Antrim) (DUP) [V]
With the positive news that the UK will commence covid-19 vaccinations from 14 December, will the Secretary of State commit that if logistical support from Her Majesty’s armed forces is required in Northern Ireland, it will be provided speedily and with the same resources as the rest of our nation?
I would just like to take a little bit of a liberty, Mr Speaker, and take this opportunity to express my deep disappointment that once again the six-time world superbike champion and South Antrim native Jonathan Rea MBE was overlooked for the shortlist of the BBC’s sports personality of the year. I am sure that the Secretary of State will agree with me on that.
Mr Walker
I fear to tread in such a contentious area. The hon. Gentleman is right that the news on a vaccine is good news for the whole United Kingdom. We want to ensure that it is rolled out effectively across the whole United Kingdom, and we shall certainly make representations to ensure that that includes Northern Ireland.
Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab)
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Robin Walker)
The Government continue to be committed to integrated education in Northern Ireland, which is why we provided £500 million of funding to the Northern Ireland Executive for the development of integrated and shared schools as part of the “Fresh Start” agreement. The Executive have confirmed that they have so far spent £31 million to the end of 2019-20, and the full £500 million of “Fresh Start” capital has been committed to the end of 2025-26. We want to see investment delivered quickly in Northern Ireland, and the establishment of an independent fiscal council would support the Assembly to hold the Executive to account on delivery, as well as on other fiscal and budgetary matters.
Alex Cunningham
Who we learn with and live alongside could scarcely be more fundamental to how we see the world. Integrated education is one of the major unfulfilled legacies of the Good Friday agreement. Is it not time to seize the opportunity presented by the “New Decade, New Approach” deal and together drive real progress on shared education that will build a fairer society?
Karin Smyth (Bristol South) (Lab)
Last March, I was pleased to host the Integrated Education Fund here in Westminster. We had a very positive cross-party discussion with the fund about how we all support our shared desire to ensure that every child in Northern Ireland gets a good education in a good school. Despite the pandemic, good progress is being made on the ground with the parties to support children. Will the Secretary of State and the Minister commit to doing all they can to support them in delivering this long overdue legacy work?
Mr Walker
I agree with the hon. Lady about the importance of this issue. As she knows, under the “New Decade, New Approach” agreement, the Executive agreed to establish a programme for government, including an
“Enhanced strategic focus and supporting actions on educating our children and young people together in the classroom, in order to build a shared and integrated society.”
I have met some of the Northern Irish parties to discuss progress on delivering shared and integrated education, and I share their ambition to speed up delivery. I believe that the establishment of an independent fiscal council would help to accelerate that delivery.
Virginia Crosbie (Ynys Môn) (Con)
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Robin Walker)
Our commitment to unfettered access for Northern Ireland goods to the rest of the UK, as outlined in NDNA and the 2019 manifesto, remains unequivocal. We have brought forward draft regulations that establish the definition of qualifying Northern Ireland goods, ensuring no changes in how Northern Ireland businesses move goods directly to the rest of the UK from 1 January 2021. The UKIM Bill will ensure that qualifying Northern Ireland goods will continue to be placed on the whole UK market, even where the protocol applies different rules in Northern Ireland. Our priority for a longer-term qualifying goods regime is to confer the benefits of unfettered access specifically on Northern Ireland businesses. That is being developed in close co-operation with Northern Ireland businesses and the Executive and will come into force in 2021.
Virginia Crosbie
More than 100,000 freight units destined to and from Northern Ireland transit through Holyhead port each year. Unfettered access is key to not only the Northern Ireland economy but the Anglesey and Welsh economy. Can the Minister confirm that at no stage will this Government allow a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, and that that is just as important as avoiding a tariffs and customs border between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK?
Mr Walker
My hon. Friend is right, and I know that her constituency of Ynys Môn plays a vital part in the links between Northern Ireland and Great Britain. The protocol was designed to address a particular set of problems in a way that upholds the Belfast/Good Friday agreement. It is a practical solution to avoid a hard border with Ireland, while ensuring that the UK, including Northern Ireland, leaves the EU as a whole. The protocol is also clear that the UK must function as a single customs territory in practice, and that means fulfilling our commitment to delivering unfettered access for Northern Ireland businesses to the rest of the Great Britain market as well.
Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab)
Draft Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland (Democratic Consent Process) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020
Robin Walker Excerpts(3 years, 5 months ago)
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The Chair
Before we begin, I will mention social distancing again, although you are all sitting in the correct allocated spaces, and when the main Benches were full everybody correctly sat in the Public Gallery at the back.
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Robin Walker)
I beg to move,
That the Committee has considered the draft protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland (Democratic Consent Process) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms McVey. I put on record my thanks to House staff for the work that they have done to make this Committee Room safe for Members in the current difficult circumstances and, indeed, for doing so for the many statutory instrument Committees that we have dealt with recently.
The regulations fulfil a simple but important task: to reflect in domestic law the consent mechanism set out in the Ireland/Northern Ireland protocol and the UK Government’s unilateral declaration of 17 October 2019. The Belfast/Good Friday agreement is built on the principle of consent. It was ratified by referendums in Northern Ireland and Ireland, and the agreement is crystal clear that any change in the constitutional position of Northern Ireland within the United Kingdom can come about only if the majority in Northern Ireland consents to that change. The vital importance of consent is recognised in the provision for alignment in the protocol to be disapplied if Northern Ireland’s political representatives conclude that it is no longer desirable. Embedding that recognition of consent in the protocol was intrinsic to its acceptance by the Government.
The protocol was designed as a practical solution to avoiding a hard border on the island of Ireland, while ensuring that the UK, including Northern Ireland, could leave the European Union as a whole. The protocol necessarily included a number of special provisions that apply only in Northern Ireland for as long as the protocol is in force. That is why it is for elected representatives in Northern Ireland to decide what happens to the protocol alignment provisions in a consent vote that can take place every four years, with the first vote taking place in 2024. Only elections to the Northern Ireland Assembly and the vote of Members of that Assembly will decide the outcome.
If the draft regulations are approved, the first consent process will take place in 2024. If consent is given at that point, the process will then be repeated every four or eight years—four years if consent is given with a simple majority, eight years if consent is given with cross-community support. This demonstrates that the mechanism is designed to encourage cross-community support, giving the Assembly the opportunity to provide eight years of certainty to Northern Ireland’s businesses and individuals through cross-community agreement.
I have heard arguments that this approach is somehow contrary to or not compatible with the Belfast agreement, and I do not accept that that is so. Our approach is entirely compatible with the agreement. The principle of cross-community support set out in the Belfast agreement applies to internal matters for which the Northern Ireland Assembly is responsible. The consent mechanism, contained as it is in the Northern Ireland protocol, relates to the UK’s continued relationship with the EU, an excepted matter in Northern Ireland’s devolution settlement. That means that the matter at hand falls outside the remit of the Assembly and outside the principle of requiring cross-community support to pass. We have taken the steps we have, with four versus eight years, to incentivise that support.
The regulations implement both the default consent process and an alternative consent process. The default consent process will apply if the First Minister and Deputy First Minister are in office on the day the Secretary of State issues the notification to begin the process—that is, for the first occasion, on 31 October 2024. By contrast, the alternative process will apply if at that point or any future such points the First Minister and Deputy First Minister arere not in office. It should be recalled that the protocol was drafted at such a time, and although we welcome the restoration and subsequent stability that the Executive has achieved, it is right that we have such a fall-back in place.
The alternative process enables any MLA to bring forward the consent motion in the absence of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister. It also puts in place a process to enable the consent vote to take place under the alternative process, even if the Assembly were unable to elect a Speaker when required to do so. That ensures that MLAs will always be able to take a decision on a consent motion, discharging the obligation in international law to facilitate that process.
The Government remain fully committed to implementing the withdrawal agreement and protocol, which were specifically designed to protect the Belfast/Good Friday agreement and the huge gains of the peace process. That is why the alignment provisions within the protocol depend for their legitimacy on consent. That ensures that democratically elected local politicians will decide the future of the protocol in Northern Ireland. By making the regulations, we will ensure that this can be delivered for the people of Northern Ireland, and I therefore commend them to the Committee.
Mr Walker
I am grateful to the hon. Member for Bristol South, who spoke, as always, with great knowledge and passion on these issues. She has made a number of important points. I agree about our responsibilities to the people of Northern Ireland and about working in a constructive way. She referred, a little unfairly, to a deal that we do not yet have. It is important to reflect that, when we are talking about the protocol, this is the deal that was negotiated and agreed between the UK and the EU, and that we are implementing and delivering on. That is part of the fact that we left the European Union with a deal in place earlier this year. I recognise, however, that her point is really that the nature of its impact will depend on the overall deal. Of course, we all hope that there is progress on that in the coming days and weeks.
The hon. Lady made the point about the importance of timing in the process. I recognise that whatever the timing we announced for it, there would be sensitivities and an interaction with the electoral cycle. The regulations that we are debating achieve it in the simplest way by saying that we agreed to a four-year consent mechanism, which applies four years after the deal was effectively done. However we designed it, there would be some interaction with elections somewhere in the UK. It is right, therefore, to default to a simple process.
Of course, we want to support and incentivise the opportunity for cross-community support through the design of the system, which allows for an eight-year process. That would separate it perhaps a little further from the regular patterns of elections across the UK or in Northern Ireland. That provides the opportunity, if it can be demonstrated that the protocol is working effectively, that it can win cross-community support and that it has Assembly Members behind it, to separate it from some of the challenges.
The review mechanism also plays an important part in that and is part of the way in which the consent process encourages the best possible cross-community agreement. That is why if the resolution passes with cross-community support, the next consent decision would be eight years after the first. There is a strong incentive there, not just for Northern Ireland parties, but for the UK Government, to generate the widest possible support for the protocol and Northern Ireland’s unique arrangements.
If the consent mechanism passes with only a simple majority, the UK Government will initiate an independent review into the functioning of the protocol and the implications of any decision to continue or terminate alignment on social, economic and political life in Northern Ireland. The hon. Lady rightly made the point that there are already many Committees and independent reviews to discuss and look into these matters, but the key to the review is in paragraph 8 of the unilateral declaration:
“The independent review will make recommendations to the Government of the United Kingdom, including with regard to any new arrangements it believes could command cross-community support.”
That provides an opportunity to foster and build support. Cross-community support is our aim. We want the protocol to command the widest support possible across Northern Ireland. If in 2024 the consent resolution passes with only a simple majority, we would use the outcome of the independent review to continue to work towards further cross-community support for what would then be a subsequent consent decision in 2028.
As I said in my opening speech, the Government remain fully committed to implementing the withdrawal agreement and the protocol. As ever, our intent and our purpose is to protect the Good Friday/Belfast agreement. That intent was at the heart of our negotiations with the EU last year and is reflected in this consent mechanism. It is something that we will always uphold. Through the mechanism, we ensure that the question of continued alignment with EU law will be decided by those democratically elected to represent the people of Northern Ireland.
Question put and agreed to.
Draft Law Enforcement and Security (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020
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The Chair
Before we begin our proceedings, will any colleague who intends to speak ensure that Hansard gets their speech?
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Robin Walker)
I beg to move,
That the Committee has considered the draft Law Enforcement and Security (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020.
The regulations, which were laid before the House on 22 October, are needed to implement requirements of the Northern Ireland protocol, which, as hon. Members will be aware, was designed as a way of implementing the needs of the UK upon its exit from the EU in a way that works for Northern Ireland and, in particular, for maintaining the Belfast/Good Friday agreement, the gains of the peace process, and the delicate balance within the community. The regulations implement niche aspects, under annex 2 of the protocol, relating to explosive precursors and firearms.
I will give some background. In early 2019, the Minister for Policing and the Fire Service made the Law Enforcement and Security (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019, the purpose of which was to ensure that a number of existing security-related regulatory regimes continued to operate in substantially the same manner as before exit day. As a result of the protocol, and in advance of the end of the transition period, some further amendments are needed. These are included in the statutory instrument before the Committee. They cover only explosive precursors and firearms, and will ensure that Northern Ireland continues to implement European Union law on those two matters, as a consequence of the protocol.
It is important to point out that the impact of the SI will not be the same on both matters. On explosive precursors, the impact of the regulations will be that licences issued by the Home Office to allow members of the public in Great Britain to acquire, import, possess or use explosive precursors will no longer be valid in Northern Ireland. That is because the Northern Ireland explosive precursors licensing regime will continue to be aligned with EU regulations, as required by the protocol. Members of the public based in Great Britain who wish to acquire, import, possess or use explosive precursors in Northern Ireland will need a separate licence from the Northern Ireland Office, which already issues such licences for individuals resident in Northern Ireland.
I emphasise that this change will affect only the small number of Great Britain-based licence holders who also wish to acquire, import, possess or use explosive precursors in Northern Ireland. They are mainly hobbyists who, for example, make use of those substances to propel model planes. The SI has no impact on current Northern Ireland-based licence holders or on businesses. The Home Office will be issuing letters to current Great Britain-based licence holders to make them aware of the change, and public guidance on the gov.uk website will be updated.
In line with the UK Government’s objective of ensuring preparedness for 1 January 2021, we have included the provision on firearms, which are largely a devolved matter, with the consent of the Northern Ireland Justice Minister. The regulations mean that Northern Ireland will continue to issue and recognise the European firearms pass, a form of passport allowing lawful travel with a legal firearm across the EU and Northern Ireland. That will not be the case in Great Britain. Again, that is a requirement of the protocol to provide for Northern Ireland to remain aligned with the EU weapons directive, which sets minimum standards for civilian firearms acquisition and possession.
The Home Office has already written to relevant stakeholders, such as shooting associations, making it clear that residents of Great Britain will no longer be able to use or apply for the European firearms pass to travel with their legal firearm. That correspondence also makes it clear that residents of Northern Ireland will still be able to request a European firearms pass and use it to take a lawfully owned firearm to an EU country, including Ireland, after the end of the transition period.
The Committee will appreciate that none of this is a new concept or policy. The draft regulations are representative of the legislative building blocks necessary to ensure readiness at the end of the transition period. They apply to the niche and already tightly regulated area of explosive precursors and firearms, and they will have no impact on business.
Mr Walker
I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her support and for her brief speech. To reiterate, neither the provisions on explosive precursors nor those on the European firearms pass will impact on business or trade. The changes will affect only members of the public. As she mentioned, we have worked closely with colleagues at the Department of Justice and will continue to talk to and engage with them. She spoke about joint committees for scrutiny and arrangements of that nature. I am not aware of any discussions about that, but we certainly continue to engage regularly with Departments in the Executive, and I think it is important that she does.
The hon. Lady spoke about the wider security issues. She may or may not know that later this week I will give evidence to the Select Committee on Northern Ireland Affairs for its inquiry into precisely those issues, so I commend that evidence session to her and to the Committee. As she said, licences for explosive precursors in Northern Ireland are issued by the Northern Ireland Office, while licences in Great Britain are issued by the Home Office. We will continue to work carefully to ensure that that process is managed properly, in consultation, as she said, with our colleagues in the Executive and the Department of Justice.
Question put and agreed to.
Northern Ireland Protocol: Implementation Proposals
Robin Walker Excerpts(3 years, 5 months ago)
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Urgent Questions are proposed each morning by backbench MPs, and up to two may be selected each day by the Speaker. Chosen Urgent Questions are announced 30 minutes before Parliament sits each day.
Each Urgent Question requires a Government Minister to give a response on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Louise Haigh (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab)
(Urgent Question): To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the preparations for the implementation of the Northern Ireland Protocol.
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Robin Walker)
My Secretary of State is on the way to Northern Ireland this afternoon, and has asked me to respond to this question on his behalf. We continue our work to implement the protocol in a pragmatic and proportionate way that minimises the disruption to people’s day-to-day lives and preserves the gains of the 22 years since the Belfast/Good Friday agreement was signed. We are helping traders to prepare for the end of the transition period. We published business guidance in August, and are updating it all the time as arrangements are finalised. We have established the trader support scheme, backed by £200 million of Government funding. More than 7,000 businesses have signed up, and hundreds more are joining them every day. We are considering further support measures for agrifood traders, with further details to be announced shortly.
We are getting on with the work that we need to do so that our systems and facilities are ready. We are putting in place the IT systems that are needed to process goods movements, supported by £155 million, which we announced in August. We are working with the Northern Ireland Executive on the delivery of expanded points of entry for agrifood, with the contract now awarded and work under way on arrangements on day one and thereafter.
We are getting on with putting the legislative framework in place for manufactured goods and food safety among many other issues, and our programme is well on track to be delivered in full by the end of the year. We are delivering on our unequivocal commitment to unfettered access. We have provided for robust protections in the United Kingdom Internal Market Bill for mutual recognition and a prohibition on new checks and controls. We will re-table those clauses when the Bill returns to the House.
We laid a draft statutory instrument in Parliament, which was approved on 10 November by this House, and is scheduled for debate in the other place on 30 November. That will ensure that on 1 January Northern Ireland businesses can continue to move their goods as they do now. We are working with the Executive to introduce a longer-lasting second phase of that system, to focus its benefits on Northern Ireland businesses, to be introduced in the course of 2021.
We are working intensively and in good faith through the Joint Committee to pursue the solutions that we need to support our approach. We have already agreed a phased approach for medicines rules in Northern Ireland, ensuring that those critical goods can continue to flow. We have agreed an approach to scoping the application of the electricity directive in respect of Northern Ireland’s single electricity market that will ensure that the single electricity market continues to deliver for Northern Ireland.
We are working to ensure that UK internal freight is not subject to tariffs, and to remove export declarations from Northern Ireland to GB trade. We continue to pursue specific solutions for supermarket trade, noting the huge social and economic importance of avoiding disruption. That essential work will continue at pace in the coming days but, of course, I cannot give a running commentary on discussions with the European Union.
Louise Haigh
Thank you for granting this urgent question, Mr Speaker. There are 43 days until the end of the transition period, and it is hard to express the frustration, anxiety and fears that have been relayed to me and to the Minister by countless businesses and communities in Northern Ireland, as the clock has started to tick. Northern Ireland needed every second of this transition year to get ready for the biggest changes to its trading relationship that it has ever known, but vital time has been squandered, first with the denial that any checks would take place at all and then with the extraordinary spectacle of the Government threatening to tear up their own oven-ready deal and breach international treaties that they had signed into law—an approach that the Minister has just confirmed they are sticking to when the Bill returns to the House from the other place.
The result of that recklessness and incompetence is that thousands of businesses still do not know the bare basics of how they will trade with Great Britain in just six weeks’ time. As the president of the Ulster Farmers Union said this morning, we are in a transition, but we do not know what we are transitioning to. The whole purpose of the protocol was to protect the Good Friday agreement in all its dimensions, and the relationship east-west is as important as the relationship north-south. The Government’s reckless approach to negotiations and their incompetent failure to prepare risk significant disruption, a maximalist interpretation of the protocol and completely unnecessary checks. Ministers should take their heads out of the sand and give businesses the answers for which they have been begging throughout this transition year.
First, on the customs declaration service, which will handle over 1 million declarations in January alone, experts say that they need 18 months to get traders ready for the new system, so why has the industry not had the final version? Given that those experts now say that it is simply too late for the system to work, what are the contingency plans to avoid widespread disruption on 1 January? Will there be flexibility to allow businesses to adapt to new systems? What is plan B?
On the trader support service, which the Minister mentioned and which is supposed to guide businesses through the complex new customs arrangements, can he confirm that the Government are not seriously considering leaving it until 21 December for that system to go live? Why have businesses had no information whatsoever on the tariff rebate system, as confirmed by the chief executive of Manufacturing NI this morning? Where is the border operator model promised by the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster over summer? Without it, traders are completely in the dark on what data they will need to provide in order to move goods.
Finally, on food imports, which the Minister referenced, a compromise is now desperately needed—and the EU has a huge responsibility of its own to deliver this—in order to reduce checks that some supermarkets and food producers say could lead them to pull out of Northern Ireland altogether. It is absurd that food destined for Northern Ireland supermarkets should be considered a risk to the EU single market, so is either a temporary waiver requirement or a permanent trusted trader scheme about to be confirmed? Again, why have the Government refused to engage directly with Northern Ireland retailers?
Northern Ireland desperately—
Mr Speaker
Order. Can I just say that when I grant an urgent question, it is for two minutes, but we are now over three minutes? I did give the hon. Lady some time and I think the Minister will have picked it up.
Mr Walker
Delivering on the protocol is a crucial part of operations for the end of the transition period. Providing certainty is urgent and we will continue to prioritise this. As we implement the protocol, it is important to keep in mind that it was designed as a way of implementing the needs of our exit from the EU in a way that works for Northern Ireland and, in particular, as the hon. Lady says, maintaining the Belfast/Good Friday agreement in all its dimensions—the gains of the peace process and the delicate balance across communities that explicitly depends on the consent of the people of Northern Ireland for its continued existence.
For the protocol to work, it must respect the needs of all Northern Ireland’s people, respect the fact that Northern Ireland is an integral part of the customs territory of the UK, and be implemented in a way that protects Northern Ireland’s economy. Our approach does that, focusing on implementing the protocol in a way that is flexible and proportionate, and protecting the interests of both the whole of the United Kingdom and the EU. As I have already referred to, the Government have already taken practical steps to do this, working in partnership with the devolved Administration.
The hon. Lady referred to the delivery of IT systems. I can confirm that the delivery of IT systems necessary for the end of the transition period is on track. The recent National Audit report confirms that since May, Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs has made progress, putting in place the core elements of the IT services required. As a responsible Government, however, we continue to make extensive preparations for a range of fall-back scenarios. We have been working with key delivery partners to support preparations for IT systems delivery, and we will continue to support their preparations for the end of the transition period.
We are reaching agreement with the EU on individual areas of approach—for instance, the phased approach to medicines that I referred to, and agreement on the process for identifying Northern Ireland traders for VAT purposes and enabling them to reclaim VAT through existing IT databases when trading in goods with the EU. However, the hon. Lady is right to reflect that there remain important outstanding issues to be resolved in discussion with the EU. For example, we are seeking, through the Joint Committee, specific solutions to supermarkets and on the classification of which goods are at genuine and substantial risk of entering the EU market. Those are still subject to discussion and need to be agreed with the EU. There are real-world consequences for businesses and consumers if they are not, which we believe would be contrary to the intentions of the protocol. We have agreed with the EU to intensify the process of engagement, to resolve all outstanding issues. These discussions are ongoing and we continue to act in good faith and in line with the approach we have adopted throughout.
The Government are committed to ensuring that businesses and communities are ready for the end of the transition period, and our intensive programme of engagement with industry has continued at pace. The business engagement forum has now met 20 times since May, and this month the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster formed a UK-wide business readiness task- force. The hon. Lady talked about the importance of supermarkets and food producers, and I can confirm to her that one of the most recent meetings was between the Secretary of State and supermarkets in the industry.
We have also made considerable progress in the provision of guidance, publishing over 25 pieces of sectoral guidance in recent weeks for moving goods between Northern Ireland and Great Britain. We will continue to work with businesses in this manner and ensure that they are provided with the guidance and support they need to be ready.
Simon Hoare (North Dorset) (Con) [V]
It is 43 days until 31 December and covid-hit businesses are exasperated —and I share that exasperation. Every witness the Select Committee on Northern Ireland Affairs has heard from says that they wish to obey the rules, whatever they are. When are they going to know definitively what they have to do and how they have to do it, in order to keep themselves in business and on the right side of the law?
Mr Walker
I absolutely recognise the concern that businesses have, which has been reflected to me and to the Secretary of State in our meetings, and their desire to have absolute certainty on this. As my hon. Friend will recognise, some of these things are still subject to ongoing negotiations with the EU; of course, I would much rather that those things had already been resolved, as I know he would. However, we want to ensure that for those things that are within our gift, we provide that certainty, and the UK Government are doing that when it comes to unfettered access. For those things that stand to be resolved, we continue to negotiate in good faith to resolve them so that we can put that information in front of businesses, but what we are doing already is progressively providing guidance where agreements have been reached. We will continue to pursue that.
Alyn Smith (Stirling) (SNP) [V]
I really am appalled by the lack of seriousness with which the UK Government are taking issues in Northern Ireland. We have warned about it for long enough: even this morning, this House’s Committee on the Future Relationship with the European Union heard from Victor Chestnutt, the president of the Ulster Farmers’ Union, who has no axe to grind politically in this. He said that we are approaching 1 January
“with both arms tied behind our back and a blindfold on.”
The other place heard last week from the Police Service of Northern Ireland that there is a real risk that there are bad men on all sides of the discussion in Northern Ireland ready to take advantage of chaos, and that internationally, we could see organised crime focusing on Northern Ireland because of the lack of preparation and uncertainty. This just is not ready yet, Minister. Northern Ireland needs an adjustment period: are preparations ready for that? Failing that, what plans are there for a relocation of police officers to Northern Ireland on a massive scale, in order to assist with such procedures as will need to be enforced because of his Government’s failure?
Mr Walker
I simply do not recognise the picture that the hon. Gentleman paints. The protocol will ensure that many of the key issues about which his party has warned over the years are addressed with respect to the end of the transition period, and that there be no disruption at the border, as some have suggested in the past that there could be. We will absolutely deliver on that, and I am looking forward to giving evidence to the Select Committee on the issue of cross-border co-operation. I am convinced that strong co-operation to tackle crime, including organised crime, can continue between the UK and the Republic of Ireland.
Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)
It will be essential to restore the United Kingdom Internal Market Bill to the status quo ante will it not?
Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)
This morning, the Committee on the Future Relationship with the European Union took evidence from the Ulster Farmers’ Union, the Northern Ireland Retail Consortium and Manufacturing NI. Their message was clear: Northern Ireland businesses and the supply chain will not be ready for 1 January, because they do not know what to plan for, they do not know what goods will be identified as being at risk, and they are not confident that customs facilities, checks and software will be ready in time. As the Minister knows, the Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs itself says that it will not be possible to complete the necessary work by 1 January. Given the length of time the Government have had to prepare for the bits they do control, how on earth has it come to this?
Mr Walker
I recognise the meticulous and detailed work that the right hon. Gentleman does on his Select Committee, and the importance of all those stakeholders he has mentioned. We do want to provide the certainty and the structure, and I have already given an update in my statement on IT systems and some of the support we are providing through the trader support service. However, he will recognise that some of these issues are not yet resolved due to ongoing negotiations with the EU, and I am sure he would join me and the First Minister and Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland in urging them to work with us to resolve those in a pragmatic manner.
James Sunderland (Bracknell) (Con)
The very point of the protocol is to uphold the Good Friday agreement, and also to protect consumers in Northern Ireland. The First Minister and Deputy First Minister recently made this clear when they wrote to the European Union. Does my hon. Friend agree that if the EU is as serious as we are about peace, prosperity and the people of Northern Ireland, it must take a pragmatic and proportionate approach to all negotiations?
Mr Walker
My hon. Friend is spot on. It is also important that both parties to the protocol bear in mind the wording in that protocol about protecting the everyday life of people in Northern Ireland. That is absolutely crucial to this, and it is something that we should both be working to deliver.
Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP)
The Minister will be aware that the protocol enables the UK Government to act unilaterally where that is necessary to protect the economy of Northern Ireland. In relation to the single market Bill and the Finance Bill, will he assure the House that he will bring forward those proposals and measures that are necessary to protect Northern Ireland’s place in the internal market? Does he recognise that there is cross-party and cross-community support for a period of time for the implementation of those measures, to allow our businesses, supermarkets, and others to prepare properly?
Mr Walker
The right hon. Gentleman makes an incredibly important point. He mentioned our approach to the return of the UK Internal Market Bill to the Commons and a Finance Bill later this year, and although I do not have specific control of that, I am happy to make those commitments to him and to all parties in Northern Ireland. It is crucial that we resolve these issues, and he has set out one of the most sensible ways to do that.
Theresa Villiers (Chipping Barnet) (Con)
Does the Minister agree that the European Union’s threat to refuse to list the UK as a fit country to export food to the European Union, and the de facto ban that that would involve on transporting food between Great Britain and Northern Ireland, contravenes its duty of good faith towards the withdrawal agreement and the protocol? Will he press strongly in the Joint Committee for the EU to take the proportionate approach to sanitary and phytosanitary checks that is required of it by its international WTO obligations?
Mr Walker
My right hon. Friend makes a powerful point, and in fairness, it is right to acknowledge that some of the threat that she talks about has since been withdrawn. We must ensure that the EU meets its commitments—again, I return to the point about protecting people in Northern Ireland from the impact of the protocol on everyday life, and flows of food are incredibly important in that respect.
Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD)
I congratulate the Minister on a bravura performance today. It is absolutely without parallel, and Sir Humphrey himself would be proud of what we have heard from the Dispatch Box. Essentially, he is telling us that those farmers, business organisations and everybody else who say that they are not ready for this move are wrong and that he is right. If, come January, it turns out that they are right and he is wrong, will he resign?
Mr Walker
The right hon. Gentleman is typically charming in the way he asks his question. We all ought to focus on delivering what the protocol promised in the first place to the people of Northern Ireland and, accepting its unique circumstances, on delivering the flow of goods north, south, east and west, and protecting and respecting its place in the UK internal market. That is what businesses want, and that is what I want.
Laura Farris (Newbury) (Con) [V]
Work is continuing at pace to get Northern Irish businesses to sign up to the trader support service, but how confident is the Minister that all qualifying businesses will have signed up by the deadline? Will he consider a temporary concession for any businesses that, come January, say that—for whatever reason—they were unaware of this service, or failed to sign up in time?
Mr Walker
My hon. Friend makes an interesting suggestion that I will happily take away and consider. Progress so far with 7,000 businesses having signed up is good, but of course we want to see more. She is right to say it is important that all businesses in Northern Ireland, particularly the many small businesses that form the backbone of the economy, are aware of this scheme, and we should continue to encourage them to sign up.
Colum Eastwood (Foyle) (SDLP)
If there is no deal on data sharing with the EU by the end of the transition period, there is a real risk that health services in Ireland will not be able to carry out cross-border contact tracing. Brexit is a total mess of this Government’s making. The pandemic—covid—is a mess and a crisis made worse by this Government’s handling of it. Lives and livelihoods are at real risk because of the ineptitude of this Government. When will people in Northern Ireland have some confidence that contact tracing will be able to continue across the border?
Mr Walker
The hon. Gentleman makes an important point about the importance of north-south co-operation, and east-west co-operation, with the Republic of Ireland in dealing with the covid pandemic, and we should continue to support that. The UK Government are clear that we will give data adequacy to the EU, and given that all the legal instruments are in place to meet its requirements, we think there is no reason for there not to be a joint agreement on data adequacy. I hope that will be achieved in the weeks to come.
Peter Gibson (Darlington) (Con)
Can my hon. Friend guarantee that in all circumstances, this Government will completely protect the unfettered access of goods moving from Northern Ireland to Great Britain?
Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab) [V]
Edwin Poots, Northern Ireland’s Agriculture Minister, has made it clear that he does not believe that the new border control posts necessary to control the movement of goods from Great Britain to Northern Ireland will be in place by 1 January. The Association of Freight Software Suppliers has made it clear that it does not believe that the customs declaration service will be operable by 1 January. That would be massively disruptive for businesses on both sides of the Irish sea, in Northern Ireland and Great Britain. Who will take responsibility if those who fear this is going wrong prove to be right?
Mr Walker
I have worked closely with Minister Poots, and I recognise that he comes at this with a very different attitude to the protocol—it is not something that he necessarily wanted in the first place—but he and his Department are working pragmatically to deliver on this. We will continue to work with the Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs to ensure that the requirements are met and that, where necessary, infrastructure is upgraded. The UK Government have offered to cover the cost of some of that, because we recognise that this relates to an international agreement for which we are responsible. With regard to customs systems, it is for the Treasury to respond on the detail, but I reiterate what I said in my statement: IT systems are on track.
Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con) [V]
Can the Minister confirm that the Irish tax authorities and Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs are working together to put in place common-sense arrangements that can help to address the unique issues arising from Northern Ireland’s status in both the UK and the EU customs areas? Some sensible interpretations and information sharing could avoid some of the more extreme proposals being put forward by one side or another in this debate.
Mr Walker
My hon. Friend makes an interesting proposal. In the absence of an agreement and a deal between the UK and the EU, clearly we would need to explore everything that could be done at a bilateral level. I am not aware of those discussions as of now, but I am happy to discuss that with Treasury colleagues and write back to him if that is the case.
Stephen Farry (North Down) (Alliance) [V]
I am concerned that the conclusion of the Joint Committee work is being overly conflated with the future relationship negotiations. There is also an emerging issue around the loss of access to the VAT margin scheme for used cars sourced in Great Britain for sale in Northern Ireland, which entails VAT on the full value, rather than just the profit margin. Will the Minister undertake to have urgent discussions with HMRC to find a resolution to that problem?
Mr Walker
The hon. Gentleman makes an important point about not conflating the future relationship with delivery of the protocol. The protocol is agreed between the parties, and we need to deliver on it in all circumstances. I think that many of us in this House hope that an agreement on the future relationship will make that more straightforward. On his point about VAT, I am happy to have those discussions with HMRC and look into that issue in more detail.
Scott Benton (Blackpool South) (Con)
Northern Ireland will always be as much a part of our United Kingdom as my constituency, so the notion of businesses in Ulster facing barriers to trade with those in Blackpool and elsewhere is completely unacceptable. Does my hon. Friend agree that we need “flexible and imaginative solutions” around Northern Ireland to ensure that we can maintain unfettered access? Those are not my words, but those of the EU’s negotiating team.
Mr Walker
My hon. Friend is right about the huge importance of flexible and imaginative solutions to deliver on this. That is something to which the EU is committed and the UK is absolutely committed. He is right, of course, that Northern Ireland is as much a part of this United Kingdom as his constituency.
Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP) [V]
Under this protocol, the European Union appears to have even more say on trade and services within the United Kingdom than when we were actually members of the EU. It is dictating that Northern Ireland cannot benefit from VAT margins, as already discussed. It is dictating higher food prices to Northern Ireland, which will increase poverty. Unfettered access will be hindered because of more red tape and the additional costs outlined today. Indeed, in the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, we heard this morning from the Justice Minister in Northern Ireland about how she is completely out of the loop when it comes to the negotiations on how we manage criminality and justice matters. Will the Minister admit that this protocol is a complete and total disaster and that it should be set aside if it damages good business between Northern Ireland and GB? The Secretary of State previously spoke on this matter. Will he match his busting at words with busting at action?
Jacob Young (Redcar) (Con) [V]
We cannot talk about the Good Friday or Belfast agreement without thinking of my predecessor Dr Mo Mowlam, who was instrumental in achieving the agreement in 1998. Today, preventing a hard border east-west in the Irish sea is just as important as preventing one north-south on the island of Ireland. Does my hon. Friend agree that the EU must take a pragmatic and proportionate approach to any discussions to ensure continued peace and prosperity for all parts of our United Kingdom?
Mr Walker
My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and he is right to pay tribute to his constituency predecessor in this respect. The Good Friday agreement has always been a careful balance of the interests of the communities in Northern Ireland and the importance of east-west and north-south co-operation. It is vital in delivering the protocol that all parties should continue to respect that.
Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab) [V]
Peter MacSwiney, the chief executive of a customs agency, has said there is a
“totally unacceptable level of risk”
in getting the vital customs declaration service ready for 1 January and that it risks paralysing all of Northern Ireland’s trade movements. Ministers were warned in summer 2019 that industry will need a year to test, trial and implement this new system, so how can it be right, with 43 days left, that the final version has still not been delivered?
Mr Walker
The hon. Gentleman will recognise that, when we talk about customs, the protocol is there, in part, to ensure the absence of customs requirements on goods going between GB and Northern Ireland and on goods coming from Northern Ireland into GB. It is essential that we deliver on that. His question on implementation could perhaps more appropriately be discussed with Treasury Ministers. However, I refer him to the point I made in my statement about the IT systems being on track.
Sir Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con)
Does my hon. Friend agree that it is very disappointing that the European Union continues to engage in wrecking tactics, which are in breach of both its duty of good faith and its duty of sincere co-operation?
Gavin Newlands (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (SNP)
For all the issues that the Government face on the protocol—caused by Brexit, it should be said—and all the concerns raised by Members in the House this afternoon, are they now tempted to agree with the comments made by their own Brexit negotiator, David Frost, who concluded in 2016 that it
“simply isn’t worth jeopardising access to the single market for the sake of global trade”?
Brendan Clarke-Smith (Bassetlaw) (Con)
The First Ministers wrote jointly to the EU regarding the application of the protocol, saying it was not intended to impose new costs on food for consumers in Northern Ireland. Will my hon. Friend tell the House when the First Ministers last agreed on a matter relating to Brexit?
Mr Walker
My hon. Friend makes an important point. The Executive have always taken a responsible approach to working together in the interests of Northern Ireland. It says something that there is cross-community agreement on the importance of addressing this. It is therefore vital that both parties work as hard as they can to resolve the issue and make sure that the protocol delivers on what it promised about not impacting everyday life for people in Northern Ireland.
Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)
Can I say to the hon. Member for Blackpool South (Scott Benton) that it is not up to him whether Northern Ireland remains in the UK in perpetuity? That is a matter for the people of Northern Ireland under the Good Friday agreement.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster told the Future Relationship with the European Union Committee on 8 October that border infrastructure in Northern Ireland would be ready for exit day, but the permanent secretary in charge of the project to deliver that infra- structure in Northern Ireland’s Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs has said that the project is unachievable and will not be finished until June by 2021. What is the Minister’s explanation for the difference between those two statements?
Mr Walker
All I can say to the hon. Gentleman is that we continue to work closely with DAERA both at ministerial and official level to deliver the necessary arrangements. He will recognise that we are not talking about new customs infrastructure. We are talking about an expansion of existing facilities to make sure that we can meet the SPS requirements, and I think that it is something on which we can absolutely deliver.
Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)
Assuming there was a free trade agreement, I suppose there will still have to be some checks—for example, on quality of goods—within the United Kingdom. Will the Minister reassure me that any official who works doing such minimal checks is actually British?
Mr Walker
My hon. Friend makes an incredibly important point. The UK is responsible for the implementation of the protocol in the United Kingdom, and therefore we want to make sure that any checks and processes are streamlined and do not interfere with unfettered access for Northern Ireland goods coming into GB. Any internal checks are the responsibility of the UK Government and their employees.
Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)
I am sorry that the Prime Minister and the Minister still seem to be living in some sort of Trumpian fantasy land about the consequences of the clauses in the United Kingdom Internal Market Bill. I would urge them to listen to the voices on all sides in both Houses and, indeed, President-elect Biden on that issue. It is absolutely crucial that they do that.
Will the Minister give me a cast-iron guarantee that traders operating between the Welsh ports—Pembroke, Fishguard and Holyhead on Anglesey—and either the Republic of Ireland or with Northern Ireland in internal UK trade that transits the Republic of Ireland in either direction will not face any difficulties with IT systems, checks or processes come the end of the transition period?
Mr Walker
As the hon. Member knows very well, I would love to be able to give him that cast-iron guarantee, but some of it is dependent on negotiations that are ongoing with the European Union. He is talking about trade between the UK and an EU member state. What we will ensure is that we meet our commitment to unfettered access. In that respect, I think his comments on the UKIM Bill are a little naive. We have to ensure that we can deliver on that commitment under all circumstances.
Felicity Buchan (Kensington) (Con)
As someone who has links to South Down, can I ask my hon. Friend to assure me that everything is being done to ensure a smooth transition both for businesses and for individuals, and that we are trying to reach agreement with the EU as soon as possible?
Mr Walker
Yes, I can give that assurance. My hon. Friend is absolutely right to point to the importance for real people living in the real world in places such as South Down. We want to ensure that there is delivery on the intentions of the protocol, and that it can be seen through so that people can go about their lives and their business without having been impacted negatively.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
The agrifood sector in my constituency provides some 3,000 production jobs, so it is very important. Can the Minister of State outline what specific inroads have been made on information for agrifood producers about the Northern Ireland protocol to ensure that, in six weeks’ time, their perishable valuable goods can continue their journeys in a smooth manner not only to EU countries, but to the UK mainland? Furthermore, what discussions have taken place with DAERA for that very smooth transition?
Mr Walker
The hon. Gentleman raises a hugely important point. I have met many farmers and agrifood producers in Northern Ireland, and I recognise the crucial importance of that industry. The protocol ensures that movements of Northern Ireland produce into the European Union—into the Republic of Ireland—are protected. We deliver on the movement into the rest of the UK through our unfettered access commitment, and we continue to work very closely with DAERA on all these issues.
Robin Millar (Aberconwy) (Con)
As a sovereign nation, it is essential that we complete our transition out of the EU on 31 December with our sovereignty intact. Will my hon. Friend confirm that we can also do that with our Union intact?
Claire Hanna (Belfast South) (SDLP) [V]
The Government frequently claim that Brexit will not lead to a lowering of standards on foods, medicines and rights, so presumably the resistance to agreeing a level playing field is just to have the theoretical power to lower standards. We have just been hearing how Northern Ireland is grappling with the protocol, which is, of course, a necessary consequence of Brexit. Is the risk of such deep economic damage and political instability really a price worth paying just so that this Government can have a power that they can boast about, but which they claim they are not going to use?
Mr Walker
I recognise that the hon. Lady has strong views against our leaving the EU which she has been consistent in demonstrating. It is essential that we deliver on a protocol that is there to protect the unique circumstances of Northern Ireland, and that is absolutely what we will do.
Christian Wakeford (Bury South) (Con)
I recently visited a manufacturer in my constituency called Thumbs Up, which highlighted its concerns about export summary declarations and their impact not only on its business, but on its customers. What work is the Department doing to maintain the frictionless and unfettered movement of goods between Great Britain and Northern Ireland to mitigate any impact on businesses such as Thumbs Up in Radcliffe?
Mr Walker
My hon. Friend raises an important point. Where British businesses are selling into Northern Ireland and the intended use of their goods is clearly in the Northern Ireland market, it is, of course, important that we do everything we can to protect them from unnecessary bureaucracy. Discussions on this issue are ongoing with the Joint Committee, and I assure him that we will do whatever is in our power to deliver that frictionless access for businesses in order to ensure that the crucial trade between Britain and Northern Ireland can continue.
Mr Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)
There was a time when the Conservative party was proud of the fact that it was the party of business, but those days seem to be long gone: we have a situation where business is telling the Government about the problems that these arrangements will cause. Businesses need certainty and time to put in place measures to make such fundamental changes. We have a Government who seem to be passionate about the fact of Brexit, but ignorant of the facts around it. Will the Minister just come to the Dispatch Box, take seriously the concerns that have been put in front of him by a whole array of business bodies, and try to sort this out?
Mr Walker
We absolutely take seriously the concerns of business. We are engaging with businesses all the time on this and we want to deliver for them. One of the key concerns is the delivery of unfettered access. That is one of the issues on which businesses in Northern Ireland have repeatedly pressed me and my colleagues. The hon. Gentleman’s party is currently failing to support that in its approach to the United Kingdom Internal Market Bill.
Mike Wood (Dudley South) (Con) [V]
Any assistance by the EU on the need for export summary declarations for goods moving from Northern Ireland to the rest of the UK would not only be contrary to the Good Friday agreement and the 1800 Acts of Union, but would fly in the face of the clear commitment in the withdrawal agreement to ensure unfettered access to such movement. Will my hon. Friend ensure that this unfettered access is protected in all circumstances, whether or not we conclude a trade agreement with the European Union?
Catherine West (Hornsey and Wood Green) (Lab)
What assessment has the Minister made of the remarks of Northern Ireland’s chief veterinary officer, who has said that it would be impossible to check all food products after exit day given that construction has not even begun on any of the three new border control posts in Northern Ireland? What contingency plans are being put in place for SPS controls for goods entering Northern Ireland from GB, specifically if there is no waiver or no phased implementation from 1 January?
Mr Walker
It is not my role to make assessments of officials, but let me be clear that we are working with DAERA on delivery of these SPS checks. We are talking not about building totally new infrastructure, but upgrading existing arrangements. As the hon. Member will know, there are already arrangements in place in some respects between Great Britain and Northern Ireland to protect the single epidemiological unit of the island of Ireland. Work is continuing, and we will continue to work hand in hand with DAERA and its officials to deliver it.
Marco Longhi (Dudley North) (Con) [V]
Does my hon. Friend agree that the imposition of restrictions on the movements of goods within our sovereign Union by a third party is not compatible with the definition of sovereignty?
Mr Walker
My hon. Friend is right to point out that it is crucial that the UK should be able to determine how goods move within its own customs area and internal market. That is why we have taken the steps that we have in respect of the UK internal market to make sure that we have a fall-back and an absolute guarantee that we can deliver unfettered access. I am hopeful that we will be able to reach agreement with the EU on the outstanding issues, and we continue to negotiate in good faith in order to do so and to make sure that unfettered access, as was envisaged in the protocol, is delivered.
Stephen Flynn (Aberdeen South) (SNP)
Notwithstanding the fact that the abilities of this Government are clearly quite limited, will the Minister outline specifically how he expects this Government to make trade deals with the likes of the United States while simultaneously seeking to break international law in respect of the Northern Ireland protocol and putting at risk the Good Friday agreement?
Mr Walker
I have been clear on our intention to deliver on the protocol and to meet both our international commitments and our commitments to the people of Northern Ireland in that regard. Indeed, we have already discussed in these exchanges the fact that the protocol is there to protect the Good Friday agreement and the peace arrangements. That is exactly what the US Government have urged us to do, and we shall continue to discuss with them how we are absolutely determined to protect the peace process.
Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con)
The recent focus on the Northern Ireland protocol has not just raised questions about our commitment to uphold international law but shone a light on our wider commitment to play a more influential role on the international stage. Does my right hon. Friend agree that, when it comes to re-establishing greater western resolve, 2021 could be a big year for the United Kingdom, as we host COP26 and take on the presidency of the G7, but that that can happen only if we secure a trade deal with the EU, protect our overseas aid budget, complete a costed integrated review and bury the myth that we might consider deliberately breaching international law?
Mr Walker
My right hon. Friend is very kind not only to promote me to right hon. but to try to give me responsibility for things way beyond my brief. The UK has a vital role to play on the international scene and it is vital that we meet our commitments with regard to the protocol, which I believe we will do.
Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD)
The Minister has assured us that he wants the Government to meet their international commitments, their commitments to the Northern Ireland protocol and their commitments to the Good Friday agreement, and to maintain their relationship with the United States. Will he tell us, then, what the Government have done in reconsidering their position since President-elect Biden has made it absolutely clear that he is not happy with the current situation and that that will be taken into account in any trade talks once he enters the White House in January?
Mr Walker
Although, again, I am not responsible for trade negotiations or the relationship with the United States, I recognise that the United States is a crucial investor and partner in Northern Ireland: more than almost any other country, it has invested in the peace process and provided jobs and prosperity in Northern Ireland. We should continue to support that, to work closely with the United States and to make absolutely clear to them our determination to support the peace process and the Good Friday agreement, part of the principles of which the protocol is delivering in terms of the importance of both east-west and north-south arrangements.
Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)
The protocol anticipates progress by the Joint Committee on the issue of fisheries relating to Northern Ireland and Ireland; what assurances does the Minister anticipate will be forthcoming on the future relationship that will ensure that UK boats that land fish and shellfish in Northern Ireland will not be subject to tariffs, customs demands or other technical impediments?
Mr Walker
My right hon. Friend raises an important point. We will pursue specific solutions for Great Britain vessels with the EU separately. The approach to landing for GB vessels in Northern Ireland is linked to, but not subject to, ongoing discussions with the EU regarding Northern Ireland landings for Northern Ireland vessels within the Joint Committee process.
Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op)
When I was a shadow Transport Minister, I debated the significant risk of documentation, IT infrastructure and systems not being ready at the end of the transition period. My concerns were dismissed, but here we are in a state of chaos, 43 days before we leave the current arrangements. Further to the question put by my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Stephen Doughty), in light of the fact that the Northern Ireland Department for the Economy has said that 20% of Northern Ireland trade with Great Britain transits via Dublin port, what facilitations are the UK planning to ensure unfettered access for Northern Ireland goods arriving into Holyhead from Dublin port?
Mr Walker
The hon. Lady raises an important point, and we want to ensure that all Northern Ireland goods that are coming to GB to be used in GB can have that unfettered access. This is still subject to discussions with the EU, and we would hope to make progress on that front, but in the meantime we are delivering on our commitments legislatively through bringing forward the statutory instrument on the definition of Northern Ireland qualifying goods. That will be the first stage in a process to make sure that all Northern Ireland qualifying goods can enjoy unfettered access to the rest of the UK.
Mr Richard Holden (North West Durham) (Con)
The SNP is always seeking to exploit this issue just to further its separatist agenda. Does my hon. Friend agree that the SNP should welcome the United Kingdom Internal Market Bill, which will protect over half a million jobs in Scotland that rely on trade with the rest of the UK, particularly north-east England?
Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab) [V]
Will the Minister confirm that the vital trader support service, desperately needed to remove the burden on businesses from custom checks, will launch only on 21 December? Does he accept that leaving seven working days is an insult to businesses whose livelihoods depend on this system working seamlessly?
Mr Walker
The service is already signing businesses up, and as I said earlier, more than 7,000 businesses across Great Britain and Northern Ireland have signed up so far. We are seeing hundreds more registrations every day, so I do not recognise the point that the hon. Lady makes, but it is vital that the service is in place for the end of the transition period and the beginning of the new arrangements, and it is vital that it reaches as many businesses as it possibly can.
Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab) [V]
There are concerns that the end of the margin scheme could destroy the Northern Irish second-hand car market because VAT would then have to be paid on the full purchase price of cars from GB, not just the profit. Does the Minister think that we can expect this to be resolved during negotiations, or if not, what impact does he think that it will have on the car market in Northern Ireland?
Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con) [V]
Will my hon. Friend update the House and clarify for us what the position will be on live animal exports from the Republic of Ireland to Northern Ireland, and from Northern Ireland to the rest of Great Britain, following 1 January?
Mr Walker
My hon. Friend makes an important point. We want to ensure—and the protocol will ensure—that animals can continue to move between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. That is important and reflects existing patterns of trade between the two. With regard to goods coming from Northern Ireland into Great Britain, we of course want to make sure that we provide unfettered access for Northern Ireland qualifying goods, and the definition of that is the crux of my hon. Friend’s question. That is an issue on which we continue to work closely with the agriculture and agrifood industry.
Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)
The Northern Ireland Affairs Committee was today warned by Aodhán Connolly and Stephen Kelly, who represent sectors of business in Northern Ireland, of the great difficulties that their sectors are going to face. Ironically, both gentlemen are partly to blame for the restrictions that they are now complaining about, because they led the charge in propagating the mythical problems that will exist across the Irish border after Brexit. Will the Minister give us an assurance that if the EU insists on its interpretation of the withdrawal agreement—which will disrupt food supplies, supplies to farmers and supplies to manufacturers in Northern Ireland—as it is entitled to under article 16 of the Northern Ireland protocol, the Government will act unilaterally to protect the Northern Ireland economy and Northern Ireland’s position within the United Kingdom?
Mr Walker
The right hon. Gentleman is right to draw attention to the concerns of those businesses. We share those concerns and we want to resolve them through the Joint Committee, but as he knows, and as we have shown through the United Kingdom Internal Market Bill, where we need to take steps to protect our commitment to unfettered access and the UK internal market, we will.
Suzanne Webb (Stourbridge) (Con)
With over 25 years of working, living and breathing importing and exporting, I understand the importance of protecting the unfettered access between Great Britain and Northern Ireland. I thank the Minister for his guarantee that it will be protected. Does he agree that all the naysayers do is bring uncertainty to businesses and local economies, and that they need to get on board with the fact that unfettered access will be protected by the UK Government?
Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP)
If anything will be disastrous for devolution, it is the Government’s United Kingdom Internal Market Bill, but the Minister does not seem to get the point put to him by several Members. How is the Government’s determination to reinstate the clauses that allow them to break international law compatible with the assurance that the Prime Minister gave President-elect Biden that he would not allow Brexit to undermine the Good Friday agreement?
Mr Walker
Absolutely explicitly, there is nothing in the United Kingdom Internal Market Bill that in any way contradicts the Good Friday agreement or our delivery on it. We want to ensure that we can protect the unfettered access to the rest of the UK on which the Northern Ireland economy depends. That is something that the hon. Member and his party should be working with us to deliver.
Aaron Bell (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Con)
I thank the Minister for his answers. Perhaps if we were having this question in a week’s time, we would have some more clarity, because the negotiations are clearly moving to a conclusion. We all hope it will be a successful one. While I recognise that the Minister cannot comment on the details, will he confirm that any permanent EU presence in Northern Ireland will be resisted by the Government and that, while the Commission will have rights of supervision, all checks on agrifood entering Northern Ireland will be conducted by British authorities?
Mr Walker
I confirm to my hon. Friend that this is something on which we have taken a clear position in the UK-EU Joint Committee. It is for the UK to implement the protocol. As I said to my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart), the details of that implementation should be for UK officials, employees of the UK Government and their partners in the devolved Administrations, not for the EU.
Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP)
I am grateful to the shadow Secretary of State for seeking the urgent question. As it draws to a close, the questions remain many, yet the answers are few. I make no apology for raising again the VAT margins issue raised on three occasions thus far. With 43 days to go, it simply is not good enough for the Minister to say that he will now have a conversation with HMRC and the Treasury. Will he commit today that, if this issue is not resolved in the overarching agreements with the European Union, the Government will rectify it through a finance Bill?
Greg Smith (Buckingham) (Con)
Does my hon. Friend agree that it is in fact because of the necessary measures brought forward by the Government in the United Kingdom Internal Market Bill that there will be legal certainty around the integrity of our Union at the end of the transition and not, as Opposition Members have argued, the other way round?
Mr Walker
Yes, I wholly agree. It is crucial that we provide that certainty. I have heard time and time again from Northern Ireland businesses about the importance of that certainty to their biggest single market: the rest of the UK. We must deliver on that as we deliver on the wider protocol.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)
In order to allow the safe exit of hon. Members participating in this item of business and the safe arrival of those participating in the next item of business, I suspend the House for three minutes.
Pat Finucane
Robin Walker Excerpts(3 years, 5 months ago)
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The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Robin Walker)
I am grateful for your chairmanship, Ms Bardell. Congratulations on taking the Chair. I thank all hon. Members who have spoken in this powerful debate. I see that the hon. Member for Leeds North West (Alex Sobel) has just joined us and was unable to speak, but I am sure he would have made similarly powerful points.
The hon. Member for Foyle (Colum Eastwood) spoke passionately and poignantly on behalf of his constituents. I absolutely recognise the force and importance of his contribution. The murder of Patrick Finucane on 12 February 1989 in front of his family is one of the highest-profile cases from the troubles. As the hon. Member for City of Durham (Mary Kelly Foy) said, it is a shocking case in any situation. It was an appalling crime and it caused tremendous suffering. I acknowledge the tributes paid to Mr Finucane’s family and their quest for justice in this respect.
Previous investigations have made it clear that there was collusion in this case. That was totally unacceptable and the former Prime Minister, David Cameron, apologised publicly for what he described as the “shocking levels of collusion” that took place. I want to reiterate that apology today. This case is, sadly, but one example, as the hon. Members for Barnsley East (Stephanie Peacock) and for Strangford (Jim Shannon) pointed out, of the violence and tragedy experienced by far too many individuals and families across Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom during the troubles.
Members have referred to a number of tragic cases affecting far too many families, including the case of the Reavey brothers in 1976. I thank the hon. Member for St Helens North (Conor McGinn) for the important intervention he has made on that matter, and I note that the Police Service of Northern Ireland Historical Enquiries Team found no wrongdoing whatsoever by Eugene Reavey in the incident that he raised.
Over 3,500 people were killed during the troubles, the vast majority at the hands of republican or loyalist terrorists. Many of those murdered were members of the police and security services, and it is only due to the courageous efforts of our police and security services that we have the peace and relative stability that Northern Ireland enjoys today. This Government are sincere and unstinting in their gratitude to those who served throughout the long years of the troubles to uphold the rule of law and democracy. Many hundreds of them, as we have heard, paid the ultimate price for doing so.
As the Government of the United Kingdom, we must be equally clear when the high standards to which we rightly hold ourselves and our service personnel have not been met. As hon. Members will be aware, the murder of Patrick Finucane has been the subject of a number of different investigations, some of which I will set out briefly. A major investigation into his death was launched immediately after the murder by the Royal Ulster Constabulary. Responsibility for his murder was claimed by the proscribed loyalist paramilitary group the Ulster Freedom Fighters the day after the murder.
An inquest into the cause and immediate circumstances of the death was held on 6 September 1990. Between September 1989 and April 2003, Lord Stevens, the former chief constable of the Metropolitan Police, carried out three separate investigations into allegations of collusion between the security forces and loyalist paramilitaries, the third of which—Stevens 3—was specifically into Mr Finucane’s murder.
As a result of the Stevens 3 investigation Ken Barrett, a loyalist terrorist, was charged with the murder of Mr Finucane. He pleaded guilty and was sentenced in September 2004. William Stobie, a former RUC agent, was also charged with aiding and abetting the murder of Patrick Finucane, but the Director of Public Prosecutions discontinued the prosecution in the light of concerns about the mental state of a key prosecution witness.
As part of the investigation, the Stevens 3 team also investigated allegations that RUC officers had encouraged the murder by providing information about Patrick Finucane, that they assisted in the aftermath by removing a roadblock, and that they failed to act on intelligence in the aftermath of the murder in relation to the movement of weapons. The investigation also included the operational activity of the Army’s force research unit, reviewing and analysing all material relating to the FRU’s operational activity. The findings and recommendations from the investigation were submitted to the Director of Public Prosecutions, and in June 2007 the DPP directed that the test for prosecution had not been met.
A further independent review conducted by Sir Desmond de Silva, QC was announced on 12 October 2011. His terms of reference were to produce a full public account of any involvement by the Army, the RUC, the Security Service or any other Government body in the murder of Patrick Finucane. Sir Desmond had access to approximately 12,000 witness statements, 32,000 documents and more than 1 million pages of material produced as part of the three investigations led by Lord Stevens. He also sought and published a significant amount of additional material, including original intelligence documents, alongside his report. All relevant Government Departments and agencies co-operated fully and openly with his review.
The Historical Enquiries Team within the PSNI subsequently reviewed the content of the de Silva report to determine whether it provided any opportunities to progress the investigation into Mr Finucane’s murder. The investigating officer appointed to carry out the review concluded that there was no reason to review the decision of the Public Prosecution Service in 2007.
As we have heard, following judicial review proceedings the Supreme Court made a declaration that the state had not discharged its obligation to conduct an article 2 compliant investigation into the death of Mr Finucane; however, the court stopped short of ordering a full public inquiry, stating:
“It is for the state to decide, in light of the incapacity of Sir Desmond de Silva’s review and the inquiries which preceded it to meet the procedural requirement of article 2, what form of investigation, if indeed any is now feasible, is required in order to meet that requirement.”
Following the Supreme Court judgment, an independent review of previous investigations was commissioned by the then Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, my right hon. Friend the Member for Staffordshire Moorlands (Karen Bradley), to help establish what steps should be taken to address the issues identified by the judgment. The current Secretary of State also met the Finucane family shortly after his appointment in February 2020.
The Secretary of State recognises the importance of reaching a properly informed decision on this matter and is committed to making that decision by the end of the month. That involves many complex issues, and it is right that he considers them all carefully. As the process remains ongoing, it is not appropriate for me to make further comment at this time. Although I am therefore not in a position to respond to all the specific points and requests made by Members, please be assured that I have listened carefully to them and they now form part of the public record.
Kevin Brennan
I am genuinely very grateful to the Minister for giving way. Can he tell the House how the Secretary of State will make that decision public when he takes it by the end of the month? Will it be in the form of a statement to the House, for example?
Mr Walker
The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. I assure him that we will seek to update the House as appropriate. Clearly, the first response should be made to the court and to the family, but I will pass on that point to the Secretary of State and urge him to make the decision clear to the House at the first opportunity.
A number of Members raised concerns about progress on wider legacy reform. I reiterate the Government’s commitment to addressing the legacy of the troubles in a way that focuses on reconciliation, delivers for victims and ends the cycle of reinvestigations that has failed victims and veterans alike. As with other priorities, progress on that has been affected by the circumstances of the past few months, but we are moving forward as quickly as we can.
The Government understand just how complex legacy issues are—that is why they remain unresolved, more than 20 years after the signing of the Belfast/Good Friday agreement. However, we are determined to get it right, and we remain committed to working with all parts of the community in Northern Ireland, including victims’ groups and families, to do so. I recognise the challenge to engage in that respect from the hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Louise Haigh), and I can assure her that that engagement will be taking place.
It is vital that we now find a way forward that helps society in Northern Ireland to look forward together, rather than looking back to a divisive past. As the hon. Member for City of Durham said, we must ensure that, as we move this process forward, people can look forward to the future.
Hannah Bardell (in the Chair)
I thank Members for their co-operation on timing, and I now call Colum Eastwood to wind up.
Draft Flags (Northern Ireland) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2020
Robin Walker Excerpts(3 years, 6 months ago)
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The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Robin Walker)
I beg to move,
That the Committee has considered the draft Flags (Northern Ireland) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2020.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Miller. The draft regulations were laid before the House on 23 September. Flag flying from Government buildings and court buildings in Northern Ireland is regulated by the Flags Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2000. The regulations provide that on certain designated days the Union flag and, in certain circumstances, other flags must be flown from Government buildings. For the purposes of the regulations, a Northern Ireland Government building is defined as
“wholly or mainly occupied by members of the Northern Ireland Civil Service”.
In 2002, the flag-flying requirements in the 2000 regulations were extended to court buildings in Northern Ireland. The 2000 regulations also stipulate a number of so-called specified buildings at which the Union flag must be flown on the designated days in question. The specified buildings chosen at the time of the 2000 regulations were the headquarters of Northern Ireland Government Departments.
The instrument before the Committee today amends the 2000 regulations in two ways. First, it amends the list of designated days, and implements a commitment made by the UK Government in the New Decade, New Approach agreement to update the 2000 regulations to bring the list of designated flag-flying days from Northern Ireland Government buildings and courthouses into line with the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport designated days, meaning that the same designated days will be observed in Northern Ireland as in the rest of the UK. That will involve the addition of three designated days, referred to in New Decade, New Approach: the birthdays of the Duchess of Cambridge, the Duke of Cambridge and the Duchess of Cornwall.
Andrew Griffith (Arundel and South Downs) (Con)
I do not wish to detain the Committee any longer than necessary, and I will support the Government today, but in designating those days I lament that we have missed an opportunity. As a country, we have a very meagre number of designated days and public holidays. This could have been a wonderful opportunity to designate 23 June as Britain’s independence day. Like Fête Nationale in France or Festa della Repubblica in Italy, it could have been the day that we celebrated our independence. I wonder whether the Minister would like to comment on that.
Mr Walker
My hon. Friend, as always, makes an excellent point. I can feel a Westminster Hall debating coming on, perhaps, or even a private Member’s Bill. As I was saying, however, the amendment is about bringing flag-flying days in Northern Ireland into line with those applied already across the rest of the United Kingdom, so he may want to change UK law in other respects with that end in mind.
The second amendment is to the list of specified buildings, which has not been amended since the 2000 regulations were made. It includes a building, Churchill House, that was demolished in 2004 and does not include two buildings that have since become the headquarters of Northern Ireland Government Departments: Clare House, the headquarters of the Department of Finance, and Causeway Exchange, the headquarters of the Department for Communities. The instrument removes Churchill House from the list of specified buildings and adds to it Clare House and Causeway Exchange.
The Flags (Northern Ireland) Order 2000 sets out the process that must be followed in order to amend the 2000 regulations. That process includes referring any proposed amendments to the Northern Ireland Assembly for it to consider and report its views to the Secretary of State. The instrument was referred to the Assembly on 1 September, and the Assembly reported back on 14 September. A copy of its report and the debate is available to Committee members.
I thank all Members of the Northern Ireland Assembly for their contributions to that debate, which highlighted the broad spectrum of views on not only the draft regulations but important wider issues of identity and recognition of culture and identity in Northern Ireland. I was particularly struck by the moving words of Assembly Member Justin McNulty, who spoke about how communities at points past rallied together to support one another, even at the height of the troubles in the run-up to the agreement, and reflected that his community still shares that spirit of accommodation, driven by a recognition that the people of Northern Ireland live in a shared home place. The draft regulations are put forward with that spirit and recognition in mind.
The 2000 order also requires regard to be shown to the Belfast agreement when making or amending flags regulations. I am satisfied that the draft regulations, like the 2000 regulations they amend, comply with the Belfast agreement by reflecting Northern Ireland’s constitutional position as part of the United Kingdom in a balanced and proportionate manner. I therefore commend the draft regulations to the Committee.
The Chair
Before I call the Opposition spokesperson, I remind the Committee that this is a tightly drawn debate. If hon. Members could reflect that in their contributions, I would be grateful. I call the shadow Minister.
Mr Walker
I thank the hon. Lady for her support for these regulations and her general remarks. In closing, I want to recognise that flag flying in Northern Ireland can sometimes be a divisive issue, as was reflected in the Assembly debate. The flag regulations of 2000 were introduced in response to a disagreement between Northern Ireland parties on observing designated days at Government buildings. I trust, however, that Members agree with me that the changes proposed by this particular instrument are balanced and proportionate in implementing this commitment from the New Decade, New Approach agreement. The number of designated flag-flying days listed in the regulations will not exceed those observed in the rest of the UK, while the addition of two specified buildings ensures consistency with the intent of the 2000 regulations.
The hon. Lady asked me for an update on a number of issues, and on sequencing. With regard to the language and identity proposals in New Decade, New Approach, we stand ready to support the Executive, but they do need to come forward with these measures themselves. The Government have made good progress on delivering a range of important commitments under NDNA, while absolutely recognising that we still have more to do. The hon. Lady mentioned the appointment of a veterans commissioner, something that I certainly welcome, and when parliamentary time allows, we are looking to introduce legislation giving effect to the agreed reforms to the petition of concern and to improve the sustainability of the institutions. We are continuing to engage with the Northern Ireland Executive in this regard, and I am pleased to be able to say that a meeting of the joint board, which comprises the Secretary of State, the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister, is scheduled today. That will be the joint board’s second meeting, and it is to take forward the delivery of NDNA commitments.
We will continue to work with the Executive on the full suite of commitments, including urging them to bring forward some of those that are within their own gift, such as the independent fiscal council, which we think does need to be a priority. Of course, that is in addition to the regular meetings that my Secretary of State holds with the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister. In the meantime, I am pleased to be delivering on this commitment on flag flying today, and I therefore commend this draft order to the Committee.
Question put and agreed to.