NATS: Staffing

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Tuesday 19th September 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what discussions they have had had with NATS (formerly National Air Traffic Services) regarding their staffing issues which resulted in delays and cancellations in flights at Gatwick Airport on Thursday 14 September.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government regret the delays caused by staffing issues in the Gatwick air traffic control tower last Thursday. UK airport air traffic control services are a commercial matter in the UK—in the case of Gatwick, between NATS and the airport operator. We continue to engage with stakeholders to review plans for disruption mitigation, and I shall meet the CEOs of NATS, Gatwick, easyJet and the CAA shortly.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, for the third time in three weeks, travellers have faced immense inconvenience due to air traffic control issues, with flights cancelled, delayed or diverted. The latest incident, as the Minister referred to, was only last week, caused apparently by the untimely sickness of one air traffic controller, and a replacement could not be put in place quickly. Given that NATS is a public/private partnership where the Government own 49%, can the Minister outline what staffing resilience measures NATS will put in place as a result of her current or future discussions? The issues include the framework for staff training, current and future recruitment schemes for air traffic controllers, and the number of staff and vacancies in NATS. Further, will she emphasise whether the Department of Transport is directly involved in building sustainability in the new staffing requirements for NATS?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

There are plenty of questions there for me to get my teeth into. I shall focus on staffing and staffing resilience at Gatwick in the tower. Two unrelated operational incidents caused withdrawal pending review, which is a standard safety procedure, and that impacted the flow on that day. However, when NATS took over air traffic control at Gatwick in October 2022, it inherited a staffing shortage. It takes at least 13 months to train an air traffic controller at a specific airport, and as I am sure the noble Baroness realises, 13 months have not yet elapsed. We have reviewed NATS’ plans, we are continuing to do so, and we believe that progress is being made.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, a fortnight ago, I asked my noble friend whether NATS should be liable to pay compensation for its failures in the same way as the airlines are, but she resisted. In defence, she said that NATS’ licence conditions allow penalties to be imposed for its failures. However, in a Written Answer, my noble friend told me that over the past five years, those penalties amounted only to £600,000, whereas this month the airlines have had to pay £100 million for NATS’ failures. Surely NATS should have to pay compensation in the same way as the airlines.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for his continued questions on this matter. There are 55 licensed air navigation service providers in the UK. I am not saying that all of them could look after Gatwick, because it is incredibly complicated, but it is a commercial operation, entirely separate and different from what happens in upper air space, which is what I think my noble friend was questioning me about last week. There is a contractual arrangement between the airport and NATS which will include service level agreements and, I am sure, financial penalties, but it is a commercial matter of which the Government do not have oversight.

[Lord Hay of Ballyore (DUP)]

My Lords, as someone who uses the airport regularly to come to this House, I have to say that this is not a one-off. Flights are delayed or cancelled regularly each week. Last Thursday was an embarrassment for the airport—more than 17 flights were cancelled with an equal number of flights delayed. What was annoying was the lack of information—passengers were treated with total contempt when trying to find out what was happening. How many flights have been cancelled or delayed over the past two to three years? That information would be important in finding out exactly what is happening at the airport and who is managing it. When flights are cancelled or delayed, who is responsible for sharing that information with passengers?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The reasons for cancellations and delays in the aviation system are numerous, including industrial action in France, adverse weather, wildfires and airspace restrictions owing to the situation in Ukraine. They are more numerous than I can elicit. The noble Lord asked how many flight cancellations there have been. I can tell him that, so far in 2023, there have been 74 flight cancellations due to tower staffing issues at London Gatwick; that is 74 out of 180,000 flights, so it is fewer than 0.1% of movements. I accept his premise that there will have been cancellations for other reasons and have noted some of them, but those are not within Gatwick’s or the airlines’ control. In those circumstances, we have to understand that the aviation system is complex and that many different factors can impact the flight schedule.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Young, has outlined one way in which the penalties that can be imposed on NATS are inadequate, but that is not the only inadequacy. If things are so bad that flights are not delayed but cancelled then the current legislation ensures, ironically, that NATS will not suffer penalties. It suffers penalties only for delays and not for cancellations. When are the Government going to deal with that important loophole in the legislation?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The issue that the noble Baroness raises will be covered when the CAA completes its review of the outage in upper airspace that NATS suffered recently. I will await the independent regulator’s views on that, and we will obviously take action if needed. The noble Baroness said that the penalties are inadequate, but I also want to stress that when it comes to Gatwick tower control, the Government have no oversight of or insight into what those penalties are. They may well be adequate, as they are negotiated on a commercial footing.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, the Government seem to have a problem with people, because there is a shortage of people in this, as we have heard from many noble Lords already. It is a similar problem to what we will be debating later: a shortage of drivers on the west coast main line. Both those problems involve businesses which the Government say are commercial but in fact, behind the scenes, they make very sure that nobody is allowed to recruit enough people to ensure that there is a contingency. What are the Government going to do about that?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The noble Lord conflates two of my favourite topics. As he knows, both those companies are privately run and can recruit as many people as they like. However, they suffer the same thing: during the Covid pandemic, it was very difficult to train traffic controllers and train drivers. To a certain extent, there is a bit of catch-up going on. As I say, for train drivers as for air traffic controllers, training takes a very long time. It is at least 18 months before that person is operational.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, this is a very complex and almost unique issue. We have the failure of a small unit, with perhaps three people on duty, impacting on the enterprise as a whole. The problem is: what is the adequate reserve? When NATS took over in October last year, Gatwick saw the need to agree staffing levels. As an increase in staff was needed, recruitment and training were put in hand, but it has not yet delivered. That was 11 months ago. It may be that ab initio to on duty is 13 months, but surely more energy should be put into finding a bridging solution to that problem. We also need to worry about who should be financially responsible. I caution against putting the responsibility on NATS on the day, because the runway is the most dangerous part of any operation, especially into Gatwick. But is the present situation equitable and, in the final analysis, is not Gatwick responsible for Gatwick?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

In the final analysis, Gatwick is indeed responsible for Gatwick. As the noble Lord will know, there are numerous London airports which, I am sure, would be happy to provide services. Therefore, there is a rationale for Gatwick management making sure that their operations run very smoothly. The noble Lord mentioned a bridging solution. I agree; I wish there were one. However, the simple fact is that Gatwick is the busiest single-runway airport in the world. Even an experienced air traffic controller still needs that 13 months to train in order to take up their role. Even worse than that, at 13 months the success rate is still 50%, because safety always comes first.

Airports Slot Allocation (Alleviation of Usage Requirements) (No. 2) Regulations 2023

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Tuesday 19th September 2023 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Airports Slot Allocation (Alleviation of Usage Requirements) (No. 2) Regulations 2023.

Relevant document: 49th Report from Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, these draft regulations were laid before Parliament on 18 July, and noble Lords will recall that similar regulations have been debated previously on a number of occasions. The regulations seek to ensure minimal customer disruption as the aviation sector recovers from the pandemic. The regulations will be made under powers conferred by the Air Traffic Management and Unmanned Aircraft Act 2021, also known as ATMUA. Following the UK’s departure from the European Union, this legislation created a more flexible set of powers for Ministers to implement alleviation measures for airport slots related to the impacts of Covid-19, subject to a vote in both Houses. This allows the UK to adapt its approach to minimise disruption to consumers and best support the recovery of the aviation sector.

Ordinarily, airlines must operate their airport slots 80% of the time to retain the right to those same slots the following year—this is known as the 80:20 or “Use it or lose it” rule. This encourages efficient use of scarce airport capacity. As a result of the impact of Covid-19 on air travel demand, alleviation from current slots rules has been provided since summer 2020.

The department has seen a strong recovery in passenger demand during 2023, but there remains continued uncertainty and lack of resilience in the industry, and demand on some routes remains below the levels seen before the pandemic. These factors are affecting both demand, in terms of returning passengers, as well as supply-side factors, such as aircraft availability and staffing. These are adding to a “long Covid tail” in rebuilding resilience in the sector.

Aircraft that were out of service during the pandemic are spending much longer in maintenance and overhaul than would normally be the case. This is compounded by difficulties stemming from the pandemic in the wider supply chain affecting access to spare parts across the global supply chain. This is having a long-term impact on the resilience of the sector that is attributable to the pandemic. Although the industry has taken steps to address these challenges, they are expected to remain an issue during 2024.

The Government have therefore designed a package of measures for the winter 2023 season that sees the normal 80:20 rule on slots usage stay. However, it is combined with some limited flexibility through a small pre-season hand-back allowance and a continuation of the previously adopted justified non-utilisation of slots measures.

When the pandemic initially struck, the 80:20 rule was fully waived to avoid environmentally damaging and financially costly flights with few or no passengers— so called ghost flights. The Government then offered generous alleviation while travel restrictions remained and demand was uncertain. The Government re-established the normal 80:20 usage ratio for summer 2023 and this will continue for winter 2023.

As required by ATMUA, the Government have determined that there is a continued reduction in demand, which is likely to persist, and consider that further but limited alleviation measures are justified for the winter 2023 season; this runs from 29 October 2023 to 30 March 2024. This package was developed following consultation with the industry and, of course, careful consideration of its responses.

The instrument being considered today applies to England, Scotland and Wales. Aerodromes are a devolved matter in Northern Ireland. As there are currently no slot co-ordinated airports in Northern Ireland, the Northern Ireland Executive agreed that it was not necessary for the powers in the Act to extend to, or apply in relation to, Northern Ireland.

In this instrument, the Government have focused measures on a return to business as usual. The Government are mindful of the need to balance supporting the sector through sensible and proportionate measures to aid its recovery—and, indeed, to protect consumers from disruption—with offering excessive alleviation, which would potentially distort competition.

There are two key provisions. The enhanced justified non-utilisation of slots provisions were first introduced for winter 2022. These act as a safety net for airlines if new restrictions are introduced and they can justify not using those slots. The second provision is a limited slots hand-back. For this winter season, the Government will allow carriers to claim alleviation on up to 5% of their slots at any airport, handed back before the start of the season.

The Government have offered this opportunity in the expectation that industry will deliver a realistic schedule for winter 2023, thereby minimising last-minute cancellations and delays. These measures will cover the winter 2023 season only. My department is considering whether further alleviation is likely to be justified for future seasons. I beg to move.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her explanation. It is a pity that these regulations are now up against such a tight timescale for their introduction. That is, of course, due to delays. The Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee—from which the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, and I have just run to be here this afternoon—gave adverse reports on the previous presentation of the regulations, not for what they contained in respect of legislation but because they failed to explain it fully. There was a poor Explanatory Memorandum, especially in relation to the consultation responses and the policy background. As this now stands, it gives a clear explanation of a very complex policy; it is a situation with many factors at play.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, I would like to make a declaration of interest, although it is not required within the rules. I am a British Airways pensioner, which is a significant part of my lifestyle after 20 years in the industry.

I thank the Minister for introducing this SI. I do not know whether it is something to do with my dying brain, but I found the Explanatory Memorandum somewhat difficult to follow, and I thank my associate, the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, for giving the EM a good beating on my behalf. I had some difficulty understanding it, but I thank the Minister for ensuring that this time there was a telephone number in the document.

The concept divides into two parts. One is the tools available and the other is the need. As far as I could tell, the tools available are roughly the same tools as we had for this winter. If that is not true, I would be grateful if the Minister could put me right, but if they are not the same, I think they are substantially the same. Are the problems facing airlines sufficiently serious to resurrect this set of tools? Clearly, the department thinks the answer is yes. I am content with the reasoning for winter 2023-24 that this SI should succeed and the tools become available.

However, I think that creates some questions. The principal question is: is the exceptional becoming the norm? If it is, and if the Government concur with me that it is looking dangerously close to that, we need to move to a more permanent arrangement because the notice that operators will get under these systems continues to be very short. It would be much more satisfactory if the industry were able to plan further ahead against a more stable environment or regime. If there is an agreement that it should move ahead, there is a need for a more numerically supported case. For instance, an issue that is brought out is the availability of spares. I am sure that is a problem, but we need to know just what impact it is having.

The reason given for these rules is that the consumer needs stability, volume, frequency and all that. I am sure that is true, but it is important that we do not lose sight of the fact that the application of these rules and the extent to which they allow operators not to operate have an impact on the balance between established operators and potential new entrants. That has to enter the balance between the solution and the extent to which these tools are enhanced or diminished. The question then becomes: how do you determine the right balance? I argue that the right balance is the general good. Having faced the problem in transport of how you define the general good, it is an important question that deserves debate—well ahead of the introduction of the next set of rules. I hope that the Minister will agree that a more in-depth look at this problem, with the possibility of producing a more permanent set of rules, can be considered.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to both noble Lords for their contributions to this short debate and for welcoming the regulations in general. I will take a few minutes to go through some of the points raised.

The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, started by noting the Explanatory Memorandum. I am now in a situation where I am not sure I will ever get an Explanatory Memorandum right, but we do try, and I hope she will appreciate that. We have them read by a senior civil servant not connected with the policy. The criticism of this one was that it was too light in certain elements, so we added more in. Sometimes they then become too hefty, particularly as noble Lords will have seen these regulations many times previously in different forms. We will continue to do our very best when it comes to the SLSC and keeping everybody happy and, more importantly, informed, both in your Lordships’ House and beyond, about what the Government are trying to do and explaining that position. That is incredibly important. It remains top of mind, and I will continue to try to do my best.

On the point the noble Baroness raised about the aviation industry in general, I do not think it is under- performing as much as she thinks it is. It had a very successful summer. Apart from the issue at the end of the summer, I was not made aware of any issues to make me feel that the industry was underperforming. The major airports were amazing, particularly when I travelled through. I found that there were no queues. Bar the NATS outage, which, as noble Lords know, the CAA is investigating, and the wildfires, which of course are a factor beyond the airlines’ control, the industry performed really well.

The noble Baroness mentioned recruitment. There is no recruitment problem. The aviation sector over- recruited on purpose to ensure that we did not see a repeat of what happened in summer 2022. I will hold the next Aviation Council in a couple of weeks and obviously I will reflect with it on how it felt the summer went, but in broad terms, bar one or two issues—there will always be one or two—it stood up pretty well.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

Does the Minister anticipate producing a report as a result of that meeting? If so, can we have it?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I do not believe that we will produce a report as a result of that meeting because, if we discuss performance, those meetings are very much ad hoc check-ins. We cover more substantive issues, such as airspace modernisation; I believe that the next one might be on slot reform, which might be interesting. The minutes of the meetings are published on GOV.UK, so the noble Lord might wish to look at that.

The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, will know that slot oversight and enforcement are done by a third party, ACL, which is entirely separate from government. We do not have any involvement at all—rightly so—in the way in which it oversees and enforces slots. If the noble Baroness is aware of anomalies, I would be grateful if she could let me know; I will raise them with ACL, because that is how it is supposed to do its job. It does a very good job in many circumstances; indeed, it does slot oversight not only in the UK but in many other countries because it is that good.

High Speed 2

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Tuesday 19th September 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)]

My Lords, is it not an unmitigated failure of Conservative rail policy that, yesterday, in the other place, its own chair of the Transport Committee commented on the false economy of what is supposed to be the fast rail network that delivers against levelling-up goals, but which will reach neither the great cities of the north or central London? He said that HS2

“would not realise the full benefits of the line and communities will have been enormously impacted for no great benefit”.—[Official Report, Commons, 18/9/23; col. 1109.]

Back in March, when reports of a delay emerged, I told the House that this chronic indecision was benefitting no one. Now, through a photograph published in the Independent, we learn that the route could be scaled back even further. Given that, in January this year, the Chancellor said that he could not see any conceivable circumstance in which HS2 would not end at London Euston, can the Minister confirm that the line will not terminate at Old Oak Common and when, if ever, it will reach Manchester?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

There has been an awful lot of media speculation and hypotheticals. As noble Lords will know, the Department for Transport, and indeed every single government department, will periodically look at major infrastructure projects, which in this case includes HS2. We are committed to keeping the House updated, as we have done for many years. There will be a regular six-monthly report on HS2 to keep the House updated in due course.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, this is death by a thousand cuts for HS2, if I can be excused the pun—cuts to the route and cuts to the funding. Each time the Government shave another slice off the route, it further undermines the purpose of the whole project, and each time this happens it marginally reduces the total cost but increases the cost per mile and fatally undermines the purpose of the scheme. Earlier, the Minister conspicuously failed to confirm that Great British Rail is still in the Government’s plans. If that was a mistake, she may like to take this opportunity to put this right. Is she not embarrassed to be here, week after week, trying to defend this Government of dither and delay? Can she tell us whether the Government have done any calculation as to the adverse economic and reputational impact of their failure to deliver on HS2 on the ability of cities in the north of England to attract investment?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Of course, a vast amount of analysis on HS2, and indeed on all infrastructure projects, goes on all the time. There are many elements in attracting investment to northern cities, or indeed to cities anywhere. Schemes such as the city region sustainable transport settlements put billions of pounds into Manchester, which the mayor can spend on local transport schemes. There is the opportunity for local partnerships to improve local train services as well. That is a key part of GBR. I can reassure the noble Baroness that the GBR transition team still exists and is doing the work; GBR is making very good progress indeed. Obviously, I cannot second guess what will be in the King’s Speech, but there is a lot of work going on in GBR and many reforms are being put in place. I hope that the noble Baroness is content with that.

[Lord Framlingham (Con)]

My Lords, the Minister knows very well my views on this worthless, scandalous, vanity project—which I think most of the country now share. In January 2017, I put to this House the opportunity to stop it, but we decided to go ahead. Reliable sources now say that it will cost £150 billion. Is it not the case that, even if we have spent £5 billion, £10 billion or £20 billion so far, sensible accountants always say you do not pour good money after bad? Surely now is the time to put right what we have got wrong, save the money and spend it on areas of the country which badly need their railway networks improved.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am aware of my noble friend’s position on HS2. It demonstrates that there is a wide range of views. As I said earlier, the Government will update the House as part of their regular six-monthly reports on HS2.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, about six to nine months ago, the Government said that they would pause all work at Euston. Has that happened? My impression is, as reports I get suggest, that there is a great deal of work going on there. Can the Minister tell us how much work has gone on even after it was paused?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am not able to give an update on the physical work that is going on. My understanding is that the position at Euston has not changed. Again, that will be in the regular six-monthly update.

[Lord McLoughlin (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my interest as chairman of Transport for the North. Yesterday, in the Commons, the Minister said:

“The benefits of HS2 for Birmingham are already being realised”.—[Official Report, Commons, 18/9/23; col. 1107.]


He is correct. The simple fact is that this is a huge project—a project not about speed but about capacity. If we are to see more people and more freight using our railways, capacity is desperately needed. This project was started 14 years so. We should see it finished and serving the nation.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am grateful to my noble friend for pointing out the enormous benefits that Birmingham is currently seeing. All across the route of phase 1, there are shovels in the ground, with 350 active construction sites and 29,500 workers. The focus is on delivering high-speed rail services between London and Birmingham.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

My Lords, will the Minister go further in acknowledging the common-sense view expressed by the noble Lord, Lord McLoughlin? Will she also reflect on the fact that, so far, almost a third of the around 140-mile line between London and Birmingham is either through tunnels or on viaducts? We are spending a vast amount of money trying to please people who oppose the project and who have opposed it right from the start. Is it not about time we took a leaf out of the book of the French railways? At the time they built their high-speed line across France, they said: “When we are draining the swamp, we do not consult the frogs”?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The noble Lord makes a very interesting point. It is right—and this is not only for High Speed 2 but for many major infra- structure projects—that local interests can sometimes cause the cost of projects to increase. I need only mention, for example, Chesham and Amersham, where I think there is a Liberal Democrat Member—and they are deeply behind HS2, apart from any candidate who wins a by-election. Sometimes, to please certain groups of people, additional expense must be had, and sometimes that is absolutely valid. That is the difficulty with building major infrastructure. But the planning permission that goes into it and the DCO process—or in this case the hybrid Bills—have to reach the right balance, and sometimes one has to question whether it is in the right place.

[Lord Haselhurst (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend the Minister recognise the risks that we are going to run? First, the country will be seen as a laughingstock if we can no longer build a railway. Secondly, the expectations of people in the north and the east Midlands will feel betrayed.

It is very difficult to persuade visitors to this country that Old Oak Common is any part of central London. I hope that we will bear in mind also, despite all that has been said in the argument that has raged over the years, that speed is at the very heart of the human psyche. People want to do things faster than has been done before—and that still exists today.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

We are already building a high-speed railway. Phase 1 for HS2 is well under way. We expect services to commence by 2033. Before the noble Lord completely dismisses Old Oak Common, if any of us is alive in 20 or 30 years’ time —I look at myself in this regard—that whole area will look completely different. It is 1,600 acres, and there will be 40,000 homes and 65,000 jobs. That is something that I think we should be proud of.

West Coast Main Line

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Tuesday 19th September 2023 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House I shall now repeat the Answer to an Urgent Question in the other place given by my right honourable friend the Minister of State for Transport Decarbonisation. The Statement is as follows:

“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. As you may be aware, the Minister of State continues to represent His Majesty’s Government in Poland to support UK train companies, among others, at a major international trade fair. I will be replying on his behalf.

The department has awarded a national rail contract, an RNC, to First Trenitalia, or FTI, to continue to operate the west coast partnership, providing west coast train services as Avanti West Coast, or AWC. The NRC will have a core term of three years and a maximum possible term of nine years. After three years, the department can terminate the contract at any point with three months’ notice.

In October 2022 and March 2023, the department approved the award of short-term contracts for First Trenitalia, operating as Avanti West Coast, to continue to operate services on the west coast main line. Awarding short-term contracts allowed the department to monitor progress by AWC in improving performance, following the withdrawal of rest day working, before considering whether it would be appropriate to award a long-term contract. Avanti’s performance has improved during this time significantly and, taking into account other relevant considerations, the Secretary of State has decided to award a longer-term contract, as announced in today’s Written Ministerial Statement.

Over recent months, Avanti has made significant progress in recovering from the poor reliability and punctuality delivered in the first half of last year. In line with its recovery plan, and since the introduction of its recovery timetable in December 2022, performance has steadily improved, with cancellations attributed to Avanti West Coast falling from 13% in early January 2023 to as low as 1.1% in July 2023. Over 90% of trains now arrive within 15 minutes of their scheduled time—an improvement from 75% in December 2022”.

[Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her very prompt letter, which she sent today, setting out the details of this contract. But I am sure that beleaguered passengers on the failing west coast rail services must have been baffled to see the companies that run them being rewarded for that failure with lucrative government contracts.

The latest ORR rail performance stats from August 2023—only a month ago—confirmed that Avanti West Coast is the second worst performing operator in the country for punctuality of rail services, with only 48% of its services on time. It also had the most complaints of any operator. CrossCountry, which has also seen its contract extended, was the fourth worst performing operator, with only 51.4% of its services on time in August 2023, compared with the national average of 70%. Can the Minister tell us what has been built into these new contracts to ensure that Avanti and CrossCountry do not continue to fail passengers and yet see themselves and their shareholders continue to be rewarded?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Of course, there will be various elements that are set out in the contract and are a commercial matter. I felt that the noble Baroness did not give quite enough credit to Avanti for the amount of improvement we have seen since the removal of rest day working with no notice back in July 2022. But let us not look at the industry performance scores; let us ask passengers. The net advocacy scores for Avanti have improved enormously, from minus 42 in January to plus 17 in April and plus 10 in August. Passengers and the Government are seeing the improvement in Avanti and that is why we awarded it this contract.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, what is not a surprise about this is that the Urgent Question and announcements about train services have come on the last day the House of Commons is sitting before a recess; that is a pattern. My concern about these two contracts is that, although there has been an improvement with Avanti, as the Minister has said, there has been every incentive for it to improve in the short term in order to save its skin—if I can put it that way. Now it has this contract, there will be effectively no incentive for it to keep up that level of improvement, because Avanti has shown over many months that it finds it very difficult to deliver.

So what incentives are there within the contracts to these two companies, Arriva and Avanti, to maintain their improvements? These contracts seem to leave all the financial risk with the Department for Transport. Have the Government built in any additional safeguards for improvement, given the history behind this? Is there any chance that in future the Government will review the way in which they give contracts, so that we do not have this approach, which enables companies to underperform over such a long period?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am content that the Avanti contract has gone through all the relevant processes. It has been structured such that there is an initial three-year period, which I think is right, to enable Avanti to provide the investment that is clearly needed. That investment is in driver training and rolling stock. I am sure many noble Lords have noticed the upgrade in Avanti trains when they have travelled on them recently; I find them very comfortable indeed. There is an ability after three years for the Government to give three months’ notice. Within that intervening period, senior officials from the Department for Transport will meet management on a weekly basis to make sure that the recovery plan and all the elements the new management has put in place are being followed.

There are also enormous incentives for Avanti to improve—£14.3 million-worth of incentives. That is what the performance-based fee is; if Avanti does not hit its targets, it will not get that fee. It is absolutely right that that is there, it will incentivise Avanti and we will work alongside it so that it can continue to improve its performance.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

My Lords, would the Minister accept that I am one passenger on Avanti trains who is completely baffled by this decision? I do not wish to rain on the noble Baroness’s parade, but when you have been at the bottom of the league table for punctuality and cancellations for as long as Avanti trains has, the only way is up. Could the Minister tell the House which other train operating companies expressed an interest in this particular franchise? Is it the case—as I suspect—that none of them did, largely because most rail managers are fed up to the back teeth with the micromanagement by her department or, even more likely, by the Treasury?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Actually, this is exactly what this contract is trying to achieve. By giving a three-year horizon for Avanti management to properly plan, it will not be necessary to micromanage Avanti. The Department for Transport will continue to support it and, as I said in my opening Answer, the net advocacy scores show that customers are supportive of Avanti. I am sorry that the noble Lord is not, but the numbers speak for themselves—and these are customers speaking and not the Department for Transport.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, does the noble Baroness appreciate that Avanti avoided cancellations and late running on the north Wales coast to London line this summer by cancelling and changing the timetable and only running trains from Holyhead to Crewe? Will she ensure that Avanti’s performance is measured in future on a dual basis—between Holyhead and London on the one hand, and the rest of the service on the other?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I will certainly take that back to the department. I think the noble Lord will also be aware that Avanti made some timetable changes over the summer. They were very short-term and over a fixed period. That was due to industrial action—sadly—and the annual leave burden.

[Lord Beith (LD)]

My Lords, does the contract place any requirement on Avanti to close station booking offices or will it be expected to take proper account of the vast opposition raised in the consultation process?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Avanti, like all train operating companies, is working with its stakeholders and Transport Focus and London TravelWatch on the responses to the consultation to its proposals. The results of that will be forthcoming soon.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, there have been many reports of quite severe overcrowding on some of the CrossCountry services to the south-west in recent months. Can the noble Baroness explain whether any extra capacity is planned? I believe quite a few of the trains have been scrapped. What kind of new rolling stock will there be and will there be more capacity? This is a very important route. It is the only intercity route that does not go to London and one begins to suspect that, because Ministers do not take much notice of it, it gets the worst rolling stock. I hope the noble Baroness can give me some comfort.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The department is well aware that there is some overcrowding on CrossCountry routes. We are considering options, with CrossCountry, on the size of its future fleet. This will be balanced with the interests of taxpayers, given the financial pressures.

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester (Lab)]

My Lords, I declare my interest as chairman of the Great Western Railway stakeholder board. GWR is of course a FirstGroup member, so it is proper that I should declare it. I thank the Minister for the letter she sent earlier today. In that letter, there is no reference anywhere to Great British Railways. How does the new contract for Avanti fit in with the Government’s plans for Great British Railways, or is it the case that GBR is not going to happen?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Many national rail contracts are already in place. Eventually, in due course, the Government would like to move to a different sort of passenger service contract. There is nothing out of the ordinary with this contract. It compares well to those of other train operating companies.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, in response to questions from my noble friend Lady Taylor and other noble Lords, the Minister talked about passenger satisfaction statistics. Can she say a bit more about the datasets behind these? What is the dataset? Who collected it? What was the sample size? I find these are often very small. I appreciate that the Minister may not have the information with her, but perhaps she could write to me and to other Members of the House with these details.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I will happily write to the noble Lord and to all Members of the House with an interest in this to set out how the net advocacy scores are calculated. Unfortunately, I do not have the information to hand.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, in the other place, the Government were asked about the criteria for the contract decision. The response was that it was a commercial matter. Does the Minister acknowledge that this is a major problem with our privatised railways if we cannot know what is happening because it is all hidden behind commercial confidentiality? I have another question, which perhaps the Minister might be able to answer more positively. What consultations did the Government have with the Scottish Government, local councils and mayors of places along the routes affected? What input did they have into this decision? I should declare my position as a vice-president of the LGA.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

At the end of the day, we have to be able to balance the need to get the best contract and the need for parliamentary scrutiny with the need to protect some elements of contracts because they are commercial matters. We try to publish as much as possible. We believe in transparency. Where we can, we make some information available without it being commercially sensitive. One of the best outcomes of scrutiny is performance. This has improved over time and will continue to do so. I believe this is the best way to hold the operator and the Government to account.

Public Charge Point Regulations 2023

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Wednesday 13th September 2023 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Public Charge Point Regulations 2023.

Relevant document: 48th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, the transition to zero-emission vehicles is vital to realising our net-zero ambitions. Cars and vans are the source of 68% of the UK’s domestic transport emissions. That is why this Government have committed to ending the sale of new petrol and diesel cars and vans by 2030.

We have already made significant progress towards this target. There are more than 1.2 million plug-in vehicles licensed in the UK, 58% of which are battery electric. We will shortly confirm details of our world-leading zero-emission vehicle mandate, which will continue to drive the uptake of these vehicles. However, the successful transition to zero-emission vehicles also requires a reliable, accessible and affordable charging network to be in place across the country.

There are already 45,500 public charge points installed across the country. The Government and industry are continuing to work together to drive these numbers up. The Government expect there to be at least 300,000 public charge points by 2030, largely led by the private sector. ChargeUK, the industry body for the electric vehicle charging industry, has committed to doubling the number of public charge points over the next 12 months.

These regulations were laid before Parliament on 11 July, under the Automated and Electric Vehicles Act 2018. The regulations will ensure that drivers of electric vehicles will be able to travel confidently, knowing that they can find a fully operational charge point suitable for their needs and can easily pay. Electric vehicle drivers can currently face challenges when trying to charge their vehicles. Concerns are often raised about locating a suitable charge point or the charge point not working on arrival. Paying for charging can also be confusing, with multiple apps and websites to navigate, and prices are displayed in different ways, making it hard to compare and find value for money. Left unchecked, these issues run the risk of eroding consumer confidence in the public charge point network, discouraging those looking to own an electric vehicle and slowing the electrification of fleets.

These regulations take bold steps to remove these obstacles. They are essential to accelerating electric vehicle ownership and reaching our net-zero ambitions. To develop these regulations, my department engaged with consumer groups, vehicle manufacturers, technical experts and the charge point industry, to fully understand the barriers and potential mitigations.

I turn to the content of the SI. To make payments easier across the charging network, these regulations introduce contactless payment at many new and existing charge points. Within one year, all new public charge points with a power rating of 8 kilowatts and above must provide contactless payment and all existing rapid charge points of 50 kilowatts and above must be retrofitted. These regulations also require that within two years, all charge point operators must offer payment roaming at all their charge points through at least one third-party roaming provider. Consumers will be able to pay for a charge across multiple charge point networks through one app or radio frequency identity card, RFID card, which is similar to a fuel card often used by drivers of petrol or diesel cars. This last element is crucial for fleet electrification, as it enables fleet operators to centralise the billing for charging their electric vehicles.

Pricing transparency will be mandated by these regulations. This means that drivers will be able to understand how much they are paying to charge their vehicle; it will empower them to find the best value for their needs. The total price of a charge must be displayed in pence per kilowatt hour and should be clearly displayed either on the charge point or through a separate device, to make price comparison across different networks much easier. Once the charging session has started, the price must not increase. Offers such as combining parking and charging fees will remain permissible if the charging component is also displayed in pence per kilowatt hour.

Charge point operators must also open their charge point data to the public. This will include live data on whether a charge point is operational and available. Data must be accurate and conform to a data standard—the open charge point interface—within one year of these regulations coming into force. Opening up charge point data will drive innovation in the development of consumer-friendly apps. This will put more detailed and reliable data at the fingertips of consumers, making it easier to locate available charge points.

The regulations will also require world-leading reliability across the public rapid charge point network. Charge point operators will be required to ensure that their network of rapid public charge points is working 99% of the time. This will be measured as an annual average and will apply one year from the date these regulations come into effect. Such a measure will give the public far greater confidence in the public charge point network.

Finally, the regulations will mandate that charge point operators must run a 24-hour, seven-day-a-week, free-to-use telephone helpline for consumers. This should be set up within one year.

The regulations are essential to improving the consumer experience of driving and charging electric vehicles in the UK. They will deliver a public charge point network that the public can rely on. Charge points will be easy to find, with prices that are easy to understand and a service that is easy to pay for. The regulations will be vital in accelerating electric vehicle uptake and driving forward the Government’s commitment to end the sale of petrol and diesel cars and vans by 2030. This step is crucial in the fight against climate change and shows the UK public that we are committed to enhancing the way in which they use the road network. I beg to move.

[Baroness Deech (CB)]

My Lords, as an electric car owner of six years, I welcome the attention being paid to our usage. The regulations represent a first step forward in the right direction, but it is too little and there is a long way to go.

The incidence of range anxiety is well known. Celebrities have written about how they will never drive electric again, having been thwarted in their attempts to charge up as they go on long journeys. The lack of charging points is almost a national joke. It has taken about five years of pleading for Parliament to install two chargers; after some postponements, they are finally expected after the Conference Recess. These are the rules for payment—or at least one of them:

“Via the QR code, scan the QR Code using your mobile device and follow the on-screen instructions on your mobile device, add a payment card, and pay as you go for the energy charge”.


I can see what will happen. Even that is relatively simple compared with some others—I will come to that point.

I solved my own charging issues by exchanging, at considerable expense, my low-range electric car for a much longer-range one, but many cannot afford that and many more live in terraced houses and blocks of flats with no access to a charging point in their garage or driveway, at work or in the road. Even in the road, there is no guarantee that a charger will be free and working or that a non-electric vehicle will not have taken the space reserved for an electric one. I have known banks of six chargers where you find that two of them are Tesla only, two are broken, one does not fit your car and one is in use. I gather that Tesla is now making its dedicated charge points available to other makes, but one will need a special adapter to connect the car. That needs to be widely known. How can we persuade the public to take up electric vehicles when charging and infrastructure are so lacking and complicated?

The regulations require contactless. To the public, that means tapping one’s everyday credit or debit card. Thankfully, it seems that is what the regulations mandate, instead of the current need to carry a wallet full of payment cards issued by many different charging providers. But this requirement applies only to new public charge points—we have to wait another year for the old ones—and those with a power of 8 kilowatts or above.

Moreover, public charge points are defined in the regulations not to include workplace charge points, points for a specific car make—Tesla, for example—or those for use by a visitor to residential premises. They do not apply to micro-businesses or to blocks of flats, and they exclude slow charge points. Why? Within two years, users will be able to use a payment card provided by one provider for another’s charge point, but it seems as if a provider need link up with only one other. We need one card to be used at every charge point nationally.

We need lighting requirements. Too often, the charge point, its tiny print about how to use it and the socket are shrouded in dark, at night and in the rain. Currently, the need to have wifi and an app may be a major obstacle. Imagine if you were a petrol car driver who gets to a petrol filling station late at night, only to find that your car is not allowed to be filled from that brand of pump and that you have to drive on and find another, or that the wifi is not working but is required.

The 99% liability is spread too thinly because it applies to the entire network, not the individual charging points. All in all, these regulations go too far in avoiding excessive regulatory burdens on industry, as they put it. I prefer to express it as too weak a requirement on industry to make the charge points that it provides, and from which it profits, all work all the time. Charging points should be uniform and there needs to be an end to the multiple, confusing charging membership packages.

The provision of data mandated in the regulations is good. One needs to know in advance whether the charging point that one wants to rely on is actually free and in working order. I fear that the mandated 24-hour telephone helpline may turn out to be one more where one is left holding on in the dark—and the rain—while music plays and a recording says, “Your call is important to us”.

Although these regulations herald an improvement on the current situation, it is only seven years until 2030 and the phasing out of petrol cars. There is not enough here to persuade the worried consumer to trust electric vehicle charging, because there are too many exemptions and providers are being given too long to adjust, given that electric cars have been mass produced and used since at least 2010. The regulations need to apply to every charge point, wherever it is, whatever its strength and very soon.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, I start by saying that I do not have an electric vehicle, which is probably why I am more content than the present company and the noble Baronesses who have experienced them.

The transition to electric vehicles is essential for the UK to meet its climate targets. It also represents an opportunity for economic growth and the future of our automotive industry. I therefore welcome the Government’s attempts to better regulate public charge points to make their use a more attractive prospect for motorists.

If electric vehicles are to become the norm, they must be as reliable and convenient as their petrol or diesel equivalents. Unfortunately, I fear that these regulations alone will not achieve this. The Minister will be aware that, at the current rate, we will have fewer than half the public electric vehicle charging points that the Government predict will be needed by 2030 and there is huge regional inequality in access to these points.

The borough in which we are today has a greater number of public charging points than the 14 biggest northern cities combined. For those people living in charging deserts, improved reliability does not change the fact that they do not have access to charging points. Has the Minister considered new binding targets for electric vehicle charge points to boost their rollout?

I have three questions on the regulations, on which I hope the Minister can provide assurances. The impact assessment estimates a £109 million net cost to business per year. How have the Government sought to minimise this?

Secondly, can the Minister explain why the regulations represent 99% reliability per rapid network rather than per individual rapid charge point? Having said that, I am amazed by the 99% figure. I know of no system that has unsupervised public access and works at that level of availability. It is a very rough world—a world where you are exposed to the unsupervised British citizen. Perhaps the reason, as I read the SI, is that failing this test leads to a £10,000 fine and nothing more. I suspect that that will be seen as just part of taxation.

Finally, given that micro-businesses are excluded, how many charging points will not be impacted by these regulations?

I welcome this SI because it is a first step, as the Minister will accept, but the overwhelming problem is availability. I was given the figure of 300,000 as the target so I researched it; I found a reference by the Minister of State, Jesse Norman, from 7 March this year, to a White Paper, Taking Charge: The Electric Vehicle Infrastructure Strategy. Unfortunately, this is not uniquely a document that is undated and unsigned. On page 38, there is a reference to the 300,000 figure:

“However, if we assume that on a national basis there is a high proportion of charging at workplaces and that consumers adopt efficient charging behaviour, as well as lower mileage, around 300,000 public chargepoints would be required”.


So this figure assumes that useful behavioural changes will occur. The document goes on to say:

“This number would increase up to around 700,000 if there is a higher proportion of on-street chargers across the country, and consumers drive more and adopt relatively inefficient charging behaviours, staying longer parked at chargepoints while not actually charging. Our estimates are in line with the latest industry findings”.


It seems to me that 300,000 is a pretty adventurous figure but 700,000 is surely impossible.

This is a crisis area. As the decade plays out, we must create an atmosphere that means that, if you buy an electric car, it will be as convenient to drive as the petrol car you give up. I do not see how we are going to get there. I hope that the Minister can give us some comfort that this aspiration is practical. It is certainly not practical simply on the basis of this SI.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I thank all noble Lords for their contributions to this short debate on these regulations, which relate to electric vehicle charge points. I take seriously many of the issues raised by noble Lords.

My overarching observation is that the consultation for these regulations took place in the first half of 2021 and, since then, we have had to reach a balance and work hard with an industry that is, in some cases, quite nascent and, in others, made up of fast-growing businesses. We need to balance the burden that we put on business, its cost and the maximum reasonable utility to EV drivers. That balance is quite difficult, which, to a certain extent, is why there are delays in introducing some of these things. One needs to give the industry some time—for example, the two years to sign up to a third-party payment roaming provider. Of course, other interventions are within one year.

In positive news, we are already seeing a significant movement from the charge point providers because they know that this is coming now. These regulations have not yet been through the House of Commons but they will, and the providers know that they are coming. We are seeing movement and we have had to reach that difficult balance. A number of noble Lords have highlighted particular issues where they feel that further changes might be made, for example in certain circumstances where a charger is 7 kilowatts and the new requirement is 8 kilowatts, for contactless; that was brought up by the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer. We will do a consultation later this year.

The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, asked me to recognise that this is the start of a journey. It is very much so—I expect us to develop the requirements over time—but we absolutely do not want to stop the industry in its tracks by getting these charge points out there when it is very much helping the Government and the country.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

On the reliability issue, why does that not apply to the AC network, which is the one that most people use? It applies only to rapid charging, which is, I think, the DC network.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Again, it goes back to what we feel able to bring in at this time in terms of reliability. It will be something that we keep under review because we should be in a situation where we can require reliability. To my mind, the most important element of all this is open data because that will provide real-time information about whether a charge point is working and whether somebody is currently plugged into it. I accept that there will be circumstances where people are parked in a charging spot, as experienced by the noble Baroness, Lady Deech —that is very unhelpful—but many of the big concerns will be met by the open data. The other thing that will happen is that the roaming providers will start competing on the accessibility of that data and their ability to analyse it and provide it to drivers in an easy-to-use form.

The noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, and the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, mentioned micro-businesses. As noble Lords will know, it is current standard practice to exclude micro-businesses. Most of them are not excluded from the requirement to do price transparency, which we think will be helpful. There are 28 micro-businesses that will be excluded from the requirements set out in these regulations. They operate around 5,000 devices so they are less than 10% of the market. One anticipates that those micro-businesses will not be micro-businesses for much longer because they will grow or there will be some consolidation in the market. However, that is the way that regulations often work; I hope it is helpful to have that explained.

There has been some focus on the helpline and the fact that calls may be held waiting despite being very valuable to the company. We agree that there is always a risk of that. The operators of 24/7 helplines will have to report to the Secretary of State every month on the total number of calls and the time it takes to resolve those issues, which I believe will be helpful.

I did not receive any questions about enforcement but I think it is worth noting that the Office for Product Safety and Standards will be the enforcement body for these regulations. It is very experienced at this. It will take a targeted approach to enforcement, so operators that we know are potentially not quite as good as others will get far more inspections than those we know are meeting not only the letter of the regulations but the spirit too. It is all about working with industry on this. We will take a pragmatic approach to enforcement but there will be financial penalties that can be used if required.

Turning to matters slightly beyond the statutory instrument, I know that noble Lords have a keen interest in the number of charge points. A number of figures have been bandied around. The Government stick to their estimate that we will need around 300,000 charge points at a minimum; we recognise that it is a minimum. In the past year, we have seen an increase of 38%. In May and June alone, we saw an extra 1,000 charge points going in, so there is momentum in installations coming down the track.

The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, was a little sceptical about whether we will even reach 300,000. Not everybody is sceptical. The independent National Infrastructure Commission has stated that it expects us to reach the figure if we can increase the number of charge points by around 30% per year, which has happened in recent years. Sometimes this needs a little financial help from government, and financial help is available. We have the rapid charging fund, which is good for less viable grid connection but also focuses very much on the strategic road network and motorway service stations. Then we have the local electric vehicle infrastructure fund. This comes to the point about how there are fewer charging points in certain areas. I encourage local authorities in those areas to ensure that they have made themselves aware of this fund and applied for it. Last time I looked, a number of local authorities had not. It is a way to improve areas. National government cannot do it but local authorities can pick up the baton and work with that.

I seem to have come to the end of my notes. I therefore hope that I have come to the end of your Lordships’ questions. However, as ever, my officials will read through Hansard. I am fairly sure that a letter will be forthcoming anyway because there will be other things that we would like to explain about these regulations.

Motion agreed.

National Air Traffic Services: Operational Failure

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Tuesday 5th September 2023 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government deeply regret the recent NATS operational failure and its impact on airlines and their customers. The incident is being investigated and lessons will be learned. NATS has an outstanding aviation safety record and is regulated against service targets set by the Civil Aviation Authority. There are incentives for NATS linked to its performance; failure to reach target levels may incur penalties and reduce the charges paid by airlines.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, last week 2,000 flights were cancelled because of NATS’s inability to process flight plans, and a quarter of a million passengers were grounded. When airlines are responsible for delays, they must pay compensation to the passenger and pay for alternative flights, accommodation and food. When NATS is responsible for delays, no compensation is payable at all—and, worse, the airlines have to pick up the bill for alternative flights, food and accommodation, which, in this case, was £100 million. Both NATS and the airlines are commercial companies—NATS had a profit of £150 million last year—so is not the differential compensation between NATS, on the one hand, and airlines, on the other, wholly indefensible?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am grateful to my noble friend for highlighting this issue, but I am afraid that I do not accept the premise that the two are comparable. There are elements in NATS’s current licence that allow financial penalties to be placed on it in the instances of poor performance. Indeed, as I stated in my first Answer, there is also a mechanism to reduce charges in subsequent years to the airlines because of poor performance. However, I would say that the event that happened was, thankfully, very rare; nothing similar had been seen for over 10 years. Therefore, we are very grateful for the work that the airlines did, and we worked closely with them to repatriate people as necessary.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, if a passenger is delayed on a train, they can claim compensation from the train operator, which in turn can claim from Network Rail, the infrastructure manager, if it caused the delay. It seems to me that NATS and Network Rail are very similar—they are infrastructure managers—so what is the difference between compensation if you are on a train or on a plane?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I do not think that those two comparisons are quite correct. We have to deal with the situation we are in now, where there are already arrangements for NATS to be penalised financially and for future charges to the airlines to be reduced, should NATS’s performance fall below set levels. I am delighted to say that NATS’s overall performance is incredibly high and it tends to outperform other European air navigation service providers.

[Lord Trefgarne (Con)]

My Lords, was there any disruption to military flying—flying by the Royal Air Force and the other armed services—during the recent NATS problems?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

There was not, because the miliary planners would not have been able to take over the system as quickly as NATS was able to. There are well-established contingency plans in NATS on what to do in these sorts of very rare events, and those plans were followed. There was a restriction on flow; however, as many flights as possible were kept flying.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, whatever the cause of the problem, from the passengers’ point of view there was disruption to their flights and many passengers reported being very poorly treated by their airlines. As has been pointed out, it is the airlines’ responsibility to deal with the problem, however they might be reimbursed in the end. Can the Minister explain to us what the Government intend to do to increase the powers and resources of the CAA to ensure that, when passengers have disruption to their flights, they are properly and promptly compensated?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

As the noble Baroness will be well aware, we retained EU 261, which became UK 261, which puts certain obligations on the airlines to provide information on rights, refunds or rerouting, and care and assistance. Broadly, that is working very well. The CAA already takes action on the airlines not complying with that. The noble Baroness may have seen, a few weeks ago, that the CAA reached an agreement with Wizz Air to go back over many years to rectify some of the times when it had not treated passengers in line with those obligations. However, the Government will legislate, when parliamentary time allows, to give the CAA additional administrative powers to enforce consumer laws.

[Baroness Foster of Oxton (Con)]

My Lords, I was heavily involved in the original regulation 261 on passenger rights 20 years ago and I understand fully the criteria for exceptional circumstances, which was the case with NATS recently. However, can my noble friend tell us what mechanism is in place for the airlines to recover financial losses caused not only by the recent air traffic failure but by other third-party providers involved, such as ground handling companies, so that passengers can be compensated in a fair and proper way by the airlines?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

As I think I have already outlined, there is no mechanism by which airlines can seek financial compensation directly from NATS in this circumstance. However, there is a mechanism whereby charges can be reduced in the future if NATS does not meet its service targets.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

My Lords, when the investigation into what the Minister refers to as “these events” is completed, if it concludes that there was negligence on the part of NATS or people who work for it, surely NATS should be responsible for compensating those to whom it owed a duty of care—namely, the airline companies and the passengers. Is that not how it works in this country?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The noble Lord raises a hypothetical—the outcome of this investigation —which I will probably not engage with at this moment. However, what I am very clear about, as is the Secretary of State, is that the investigation that NATS is carrying out, overseen by the CAA, will get to the root cause of whatever caused these events and that that will be published in due course with next steps.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, when I represented Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley in the other place all those years ago, when the air traffic control in the south had some problems, the air traffic control at Prestwick took over for the whole of the United Kingdom. However, once Swanwick was open, it was integrated and therefore there is now only one NATS service. Would it not be better to have a look at going back to where one could come in when the other failed, and therefore we would have a backup?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The noble Lord raises an interesting point. As I said, when the investigations around this are completed and the reports are available, potential next steps will be considered, particularly around mitigations to ensure that this does not happen again.

[Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)]

My Lords, I think we are all a bit fed up with hearing that lessons will be learned. We have had a number of really serious incidents recently when that has come out again and again. As the noble Lord, Lord Young, said, more than 2,000 flights were cancelled, which meant that many thousands of passengers, including members of my family—and I am sure Members of your Lordships’ House—were left at chaotic airports with no information, help or support from airlines. It was utterly miserable, expensive and very concerning for all those affected. That has now become a routine occurrence during periods of disruption. If lessons are going to be learned, how quickly will the investigation report, will airlines be held to account, and will the enforcement powers for the CAA come forward in the King’s Speech?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

As I noted, and as I believe noble Lords will be aware, the preliminary report from NATS was submitted to the CAA yesterday. It was then transmitted to the Secretary of State, and it will be made public in due course by either the CAA or NATS—obviously, those two organisations will be carrying out the investigation into this. When we have that report, we will be able to consider what next steps can be taken.

[Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con)]

I thank my noble friend the Minister for commending our air traffic controllers on their very impressive record. When we have discovered the cause of what happened—preliminary reports seem to indicate that a rogue flight plan, out of many thousands of flight plans, was fed into the system and that that seemed to cause this disruption—can we just focus on the pride we have in our own air traffic controllers, who played no part at all in how this incident occurred?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for raising that, because I am enormously grateful for the work of our air traffic controllers; I have visited Swanwick and seen their work at first hand. It is an enormously stressful job and, in this very rare event, I think all noble Lords must agree that the system failed safely. We are in agreement that at no point was there a risk to life and that shows that the system is working.

Rail Ticket Offices

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Wednesday 12th July 2023 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for a succession of questions there. She is right that the staff are valued. They are very much valued by the Government and indeed by the train operating companies, so much so that we have concluded that they do not need to be sitting in a ticket office to help passengers in whichever way they need.

The noble Baroness talked about ticketing and availability. It is the case that 99% of all tickets are available through ticket vending machines or online. On the question of an impact assessment, the impacts for each station are assessed individually under the process, which I am sure the noble Baroness is aware of as it was in place during the last Labour Government.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, the train operators have made it clear that this is being imposed on them by the Government. The Government have said that only 12% of tickets are bought through ticket offices, but what does that 12% mean? In the past year there were 1.4 billion separate rail journeys, so 168 million tickets were bought in ticket offices. Passengers who use ticket offices will be inconvenienced and deterred by the closure of those offices. That will hit elderly, disabled and poorer people most of all.

What assessment have the Government made of the particular impact on those in our society less able to buy tickets from machines? Does the Minister accept that the truth is that this is a question of trust? We do not believe government promises that there will be people wandering around stations to help people. There will be for the first few weeks, but they will disappear after that. The Government will tell us that there have to be reductions. We do not trust the Government to deliver on their promises.

Finally, does the Minister agree that at the very least there should be no ticket office closures until the Government have delivered on their long-awaited commitment to simplify the fare structure?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The Government have an ongoing commitment to simplify the fare structure and we are continuing to do so. The Rail Minister has engaged extensively and directly with accessibility groups and will continue to do so. We are also engaging with the Disabled Persons Transport Advisory Committee to ensure that we hear its views as well.

As I said in answer to a previous question, 99% of tickets can be bought through a ticket vending machine or online, and members of staff will be around to help anybody who has any problems in buying their tickets.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister know that the delay repay system, which I referred to in a question last week, often rewards people with vouchers from the companies? They often will not put money into your account. You are able to cash in those vouchers only at offices that sell railway tickets, so we could be in a very difficult situation here. If the Minister needs to write to me about this, I would quite understand.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I will certainly write to the noble Lord about this, but there will be various functionality within the new system, which will be more mobile than it is now and will allow people using cash, for example, to buy a ticket or a ticket to ride, which is one of the options available. On vouchers, I will write to him but I am fairly sure that will have been taken into account by the train operating companies when they put forward their proposals.

[Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con)]

My Lords, I use the ticket office at Staplehurst station and its staff are outstanding. The care that they show the customers and the way in which they help them plan their journey and buy the correct tickets is a credit to them. I truly hope that their skills will be kept, because the business will be the poorer without them. I am afraid that the ticket machines do not quite match up to the staff. Can my noble friend tell me if the new ticket machines will be able to replicate this service and whether AI will be used to enhance them?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am grateful to my noble friend for her exposition of the greatness of the staff. We absolutely value the staff, which is why we want to get them out there to enable them to help more people. Ticket vending machines are being continually upgraded and there are all sorts of ways we can upgrade them: for example, we are adding video calling to enable people to ask the absolute experts if they wish to take a particularly complicated route. If AI is appropriate, I am sure that the train operating companies are looking at it.

[Lord Woodley (Lab)]

My Lords, I speak from personal experience, having travelled up and down from Liverpool twice this week alone. Only this morning, I was listening to the staff there who were worried sick about their jobs, but more importantly, I watched a partially sighted customer trying to get help and support which would not have been available had there been no assistant to help them. This is not about people; it is about profits and wiping people’s jobs out. I urge others to make sure, as I have already done today, that in respect of the consultation paper they vote no to this outrageous proposal.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, those staff will still be there to help the passenger, whether they be partially sighted or for whatever reason they need help. The noble Lord says that this is about profits but it is not at all, because the costs of running the railways fall to the taxpayer. We need to have a modern seven-day railway and that is what this Government are going to deliver.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

My Lords, this is a necessary modernisation of the railways but what we have heard is the kind of thing that is argued about any change. The railways do not make money and need to be more modern; we ought to accept this and celebrate it.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I absolutely agree with my noble friend. There have been various interventions with technology over recent years. For example, the addition of gate lines necessarily meant that certain members of staff did not need to check tickets, and that is absolutely right. They can do far more valuable things. It is about helping passengers to get where they need to go, whether they have reduced mobility or not.

[Baroness Bull (CB)]

My Lords, there has been mention of the issues for disabled passengers. The Office of Rail and Road published its annual report today, which showed that only 66% of those with physical impairments received their pre-booked assistance. That is a one in three chance of not getting assistance, despite booking in advance. Can the Minister please explore how this situation can be improved, so that people with disabilities can use the railways?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

That is absolutely at the front of our minds when considering these changes. The ORR also published statistics which showed that there has been a 68% increase in passengers who need assistance to use our railways. Of course, getting people out from ticket offices and on to platforms and into gathering areas and waiting rooms to enable those people to travel more freely is top of mind.

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Sikka (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister said that people can buy tickets online. That presupposes that people have a good mobile phone or a computer and a broadband line. Can the Minister tell the House how many individuals and households do not have a good phone, access to a computer or a broadband link? What help will the Government be offering to those who do not have these things?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

There are all sorts of channels for reaching train operating companies, including by traditional telephone. As I mentioned, not a single station which is currently staffed will be unstaffed in the future. There will therefore be no change for such individuals. They will be able to go to the station to seek the help of the staff, who will be able to assist them in buying a ticket.

E-bikes

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Tuesday 11th July 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson]

To ask His Majesty’s Government whether they plan to regulate the use of e-bikes.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, there are regulations in place which govern the use of e-bikes on the public highway. Enforcement of these is a matter for the police. All road users have a duty to behave in a safe, responsible manner and to follow the rules set out in the Highway Code.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, there have been three tragic deaths of 15 and 16 year-olds in recent months, in Cardiff, my home city, and Salford. An exciting new invention—e-bikes—are rapidly becoming a major road safety and social problem, largely because of a lack of appropriate, modern regulations. Will the Minister commit to an urgent review to consider requirements such as helmets and a minimum age for the more powerful bikes? Very importantly, will the Government ensure that anti-tampering technology is installed by manufacturers? It is very easy indeed to override the 15.5 mph speed limit.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

There has been some confusion in the media about e-bikes versus e-motorbikes; the two are very different. Obviously, what happened in Salford and Cardiff is tragic. On both those occasions, the individuals involved would have been breaking the law on multiple levels. I accept the noble Baroness’s point about tampering, but e-bikes are subject to type approval, like motorbikes and cars are. The DVSA has a market surveillance programme to make sure that e-bikes on sale meet the standards that we have.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, wishes to speak remotely.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab) [V]]

With reports of fires due to excessive heat being generated during the charging of e-bikes in enclosed storage areas—particularly in underground car parks, and even within flats when external storage is unavailable—is there not a need for an urgent further safety review, followed by guidance on safety measures, or even further regulations if necessary?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am delighted to say that the Government are already conducting that research. The Department for Business and Trade is working with the Home Office and the Department for Transport in assessing exactly what the issue is. We are also developing guidance jointly with the industry which will advise on charging e-bikes and various other safety measures concerning their batteries.

[Viscount Hailsham (Con)]

My Lords, I am an owner and an enthusiastic user of e-bikes. They are great; I use them both in the country and in London. To the extent that there are problems with use, those arise in large part because of the difficulties of enforcing existing regulations. I hope the Government will be very slow to introduce new regulations which might make life difficult for responsible users.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am incredibly grateful to my noble friend, because we know that e-bikes have huge environmental benefits. They can be used on more difficult journeys, and they can take those who may be less able—which, of course, I am not suggesting is the case here—further and slightly faster. If we were to change the regulations on e-bikes, which are very clear at the moment, we would do so with an abundance of caution.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, can the Minister confirm whether there is any type approval for the types of what I think she called e-bikes that are not limited to the speed of a normal Brompton bike, such as the electric one I have, and do not need any pedal power? It seems to me that there are lots of them running around London and other places that can go any speed, do not need numberplates or helmets, and probably do not have any insurance.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

No, those people who are riding those vehicles in those circumstances are breaking the law. All vehicles that are not e-bikes—they would be electric motorbikes—have to be registered with the DVLA, insured and taxed; the person would have to have a driving licence and to wear a helmet. Essentially, they would be the same as a traditional ICE motorbike and, yes, there is type approval of those vehicles.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend replied to a Written Question from me, saying:

“The Government is considering bringing forward legislation to introduce new offences concerning careless or dangerous cycling”,


particularly in the case of “irresponsible cycling behaviour”, including by e-cyclists. Will she support my Road Traffic Offences (Cycling) Bill, which would introduce the offences to which she refers in her Answer?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My noble friend is quite right: the Government are considering it and we will publish our consultation response soon.

[Lord Austin of Dudley (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, as we have heard, there are already lots of rules governing e-bikes limiting their power and speed, and it is already illegal to ride them on pavements, so we do not need more rules. We need the police to enforce the ones we have; just as, when it comes to more rules for cycling generally, the police should be enforcing rules on drivers who speed or jump red lights—we see this every day on the streets of London, and that causes many more serious injuries and deaths to pedestrians and cyclists on the road.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I absolutely agree with the noble Lord, but of course these are operational matters for the police. The police are operationally independent. However, they respond to pressure from local communities and the police and crime commissioner; therefore, I encourage those people to ensure that the police are doing what I am sure many would want in their local areas.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I am totally in awe of my noble friend Lord Hailsham and believe he should be allowed to use an e-bike, as he does in Peckham. Does my noble friend agree that e-scooters are a different thing entirely? They overtake taxis, their riders never have helmets, they have no registration numbers—they are an absolute menace. Can the wretched things be got rid of, as they have been in Paris?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

This Government are not a great fan of banning things, but we do need to think very carefully about e-scooters on our roads. As my noble friend will know, it is illegal to ride a private e-scooter on a public road—it has always been, and it remains, illegal. When parliamentary time allows, we will bring in legislation for micromobility which will cover private e-scooters, but it will also provide a licensing framework for the rental micromobility operations which are currently in trial across the country.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I have twice witnessed the same man riding up and down Whitehall—of all places—backwards on a cycle. At first, I thought it was a circus act, but then I saw him come the other way. Not once have I seen a police officer even take any notice of him. I cannot understand it, for the life of me. If we are accepting this sort of behaviour, what chance has the average motorist? We now have a full complement of police officers, and they really should be doing their job.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I do not really know how to respond to that. I was trying to think whether riding backwards was somehow riding carelessly, and it may well be, but, obviously, I did not see the gentleman. The noble Lord is absolutely right: it is a question of enforcement and the police should be encouraged to enforce our road laws properly.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, while the legal speed limit for e-bikes is 25 kph, the Minister will know that models which exceed that are widely available, and many who ride them may not even know that they are breaking the law. What assessment has the Minister made of the levels of enforcement by the police of those models, and can she share any data on these, including possible confiscation?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Yes. The Government are extremely active in this area. As I said previously, the DVSA has a market surveillance programme. Each retailer must check that the EAPC is compatible with the regulations. To date, five retailers have been prosecuted and there have been fines and criminal convictions, while many other investigations are ongoing. Such retailers are instructed to recall and remedy any non-compliant products. There is a system for catching these products. If there are products out there that have an off-road capability, for example, where you can switch it to more than 15.5 mph, we believe that those products do not comply with the regulations and we would encourage the DVSA to take appropriate enforcement action.

[Lord Blencathra (Con)]

My noble friend the Minister is right that this is a matter for police enforcement, as other noble Lords have pointed out. However, she knows as well as I do that not a single police force in the country cares about this issue or is doing anything about enforcement. Will she use the powers of her office to gather every chief constable together for a conference and tell them to enforce the law for the safety not just of the riders but of the pedestrians who get mowed down on the pavement every day of the week?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The Department for Transport, the Home Office and the leaders of police forces across the country speak frequently about road safety. The messages about e-scooters and e-bikes are passed on, as are wider issues around road safety. As I say, these are operational decisions for the police; we must leave it to them to make those decisions for themselves.

Network Rail: Ely Area Capacity Enhancement Programme

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Wednesday 5th July 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Haselhurst]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what progress Network Rail has made in the Ely area capacity enhancement programme.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, I appreciate my noble friend’s ongoing interest in the proposed rail enhancements at Ely and Haughley junctions. I reassure him that the Ely area capacity enhancement programme is being considered as part of the update to the rail network enhancements pipeline.

[Lord Haselhurst (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for that response. Do His Majesty’s Government recognise how powerful a driver of economic growth it represents? It is not just for the east of England but would benefit the Midlands and the north, bringing significant improvements in the passenger experience, the movement of freight and, not least, the quality of the environment. It also has a very favourable benefit-cost ratio, so—to coin a phrase—can we just get it done?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, when it comes to any enhancement on the rail network, the Government do a very detailed analysis to devise the business case for each and every one of the enhancements. We are of course doing that for Ely, but we are doing it in the context of revised and different travel patterns and an increased focus on freight. It is necessary for us to go through the processes to understand which projects can be prioritised.

[Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)]

My Lords, Ely, like over 1,000 railway stations in England, currently has a much-valued ticket office. Government plans unveiled today will axe this, alongside every other station ticket office in the next three years. Customers and rail staff are concerned that this will lead to increased crime rates at stations. A loss of customer support will cause confusion and make travelling difficult for the vulnerable and elderly. Have the Government carried out an impact assessment on safety and accessibility if these closures go ahead?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, if Ely currently has a ticket office, it will remain a staffed station: there will be no changes to whether a station is staffed or not. In terms of crime, the British Transport Police advise that passenger safety is not dependent on selling tickets from a ticket office. The Government have done an extensive amount in respect of impact assessments and discussions with accessibility and wider passenger groups. The industry will continue to do so and, in bringing forward its proposals, it will of course do an impact assessment.

[Lord Bellingham (Con)]

My Lords, the Ely north junction capital programme is absolutely key to enabling a half-hourly service to King’s Lynn. I declare an interest as the former MP for King’s Lynn; I headed the campaign and had an Adjournment debate on this in the other place. Is the Minister aware that part of the key to getting this done is various road improvements, including crossings and bridges. Can she say something about the work that her department has done with National Highways and the local transport authority?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Network Rail and the Department for Transport work very closely with National Highways and the local authority to form a holistic view of the impact of any enhancements. I agree with my noble friend that sometimes several things can work together to bring additional economic benefit. All those things go into the business case and decisions are made on priorities thereafter.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, following on from what the noble Lord has just said about the importance of this to the east of England, does the Minister also agree that the Government need to press on determinedly with the Oxford-Cambridge link? That too would have a very powerful impact, not just on the UK economy but on the east of England.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The noble Lord is right that we need to find those projects that will have the most benefit to both passengers and freight. That is the whole point of the rail network enhancement pipeline; it will set out our priorities, give certainty to the supply chain and allow us to continue to invest £2 billion a year on enhancements.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, the crucial importance of Ely is for freight. There are five lines going in and one line going out, so there is a pinch point. Does the Minister accept that it is totally illogical that the Government are investing in Felixstowe freeport without investing, in the same timeframe, in the Ely solution to enable 98,000 lorries a year to be taken off our roads and to deliver on government plans on environmental mitigation and climate change?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I can say no more other than that all these considerations are being taken into account in the business case. It is the case that not only is rail freight important but so is road freight—although I accept the point about the environment. It is important that we look at the business case as a whole, and I am afraid that there is nothing more I can add at this stage.

[Baroness Blackwood of North Oxford (Con)]

My Lords, picking up on the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, about the value of the Oxford-Cambridge arc for economic growth, the first step in improving connectivity in the arc between Oxford and Cambridge is of course the East West Rail Oxford-Bedford link. There was a commitment in the policy paper in February to consult on that. Can the Minister update the House?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am not sure that I am able to update the House on when the consultation will be done, but the Government of course remain committed to East West Rail. I will write to my noble friend.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, on a previous occasion the Minister promised improvements that would provide for the second of the two lines between Leeds and Bradford to be upgraded to a point where one could get from Leeds to Bradford in 10 to 12 minutes. I am advised that that is impossible unless there is very extensive reorganisation of the western approaches to Leeds station. I note the priority now being given to the Oxford-Cambridge line; I simply re-emphasise that, unless the various trans-Pennine links are substantially improved, we will not begin to get any sort of levelling up in the central cities of the north.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The Government are incredibly ambitious when it comes to investment in the north and the Midlands. As the noble Lord will know, we have the Northern Powerhouse Rail programme and we are taking forward all sorts of different schemes in the area.

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester (Lab)]

My Lords, there can be very few other investment projects that have such enormous environmental benefits as the Ely enhancement. The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, referred to 98,000 lorry journeys that would transfer to rail on 2,900 extra freight trains, but the benefits extend to passenger services. It is almost inconceivable that the Government will refuse to do this, because the rate of return on investment is £4.80 in benefits for every £1 spent on it. I cannot imagine there are many other schemes in the rail enhancement pipeline that will match that sort of figure, so why can the Minister not be more positive about it now?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I do not recognise the figure that the noble Lord cites. It is important that we reassess our business cases based on revised travel patterns as they are now, and that has an impact on the business case—but, as I say, we are reviewing them and decisions will be made in due course.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

My Lords, will the Minister comment on, or at least look at, the “delay repay” scheme which is, on the face of it, a very good idea. The specific problem is that if you are delayed by a regional company by, say, 20 minutes and then by a major company coming into London, it is very hard to make a claim as the form stands. Does the first company pay for the whole thing? Does the second company pay for it? I found negotiating the link—which is, as I say, attractive—extremely difficult. I wish I did not have to resort to it as often as I do but, sadly, in this country it is quite often very necessary.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I was not aware of that issue. I will take it back to my department and, if the noble Lord will provide me further information, I will of course investigate.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, if the Ely enhancement goes ahead, it will enable people from that area to get down to London to take the Caledonian Sleeper up to Edinburgh and Glasgow. The Caledonian Sleeper has just been taken into public ownership, and I approve of the principle, but I do not understand how the Scottish Government can take into public ownership trains that run mainly in England. Can the Minister explain?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Responsibility for the Caledonian Sleeper rests with the Scottish Government. I will write with further information, but I am afraid I have none.

Aviation Safety (Amendment) Regulations 2023

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Tuesday 4th July 2023 Lords Chamber

What to do about this? The quality of EMs—across the board, to some extent, but certainly from the transport department—in recent years has given us concerns. Perhaps it is unfair to call it quality; it is the shape of them and the fact that they do not spend enough time explaining where we are, where we are trying to get to, and why—as opposed to saying, “Well, we will change this paragraph to that paragraph”. There should be more understanding of transition and —if I am right that the last two dates in the document are wrong—there need to be processes that make sure that there is good proofreading. I invite the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, the Minister and officials to have a conversation about this. For this process to have any value at all, it all depends on the quality and breadth of the Explanatory Memorandum. We could help to get across to officials what we would see as being more valuable so as to have a more informed debate on these issues.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

I am extremely grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, and the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, for their input this evening. I am particularly grateful for the collaborative words from the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe. It is hard to find fault with much of what he said and we recognise that, when it comes to aviation safety, transition is really important. It is an extremely complex area. We are already very safe and we must not do anything to upset that applecart as we put in interventions that will make things even safer.

I would like to address the broad narrative around the concerns raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson. Noble Lords will know that I take great interest in the secondary legislation programme, even though I am not the SI Minister in the department, because of the valid scrutiny that our secondary legislation programme gets in your Lordships’ House. I too am keen to get it right, because it is as painful for me—perhaps even more so—as it is for them to have to stand in front of noble Lords and say that, on this occasion, I am not particularly proud of the work my department did on this SI. I want perfection and this was definitely not perfection—it was a long way from that. We can and we must do better. As I have said, we have a very strong record on aviation safety and we are committed to maintaining and improving those high safety standards. When we do not meet those high standards, it is right that we are subject to immense scrutiny.

Some months ago, the department completely reviewed its approach to secondary legislation and implemented improved processes and training. I think the issue here is that that is still being bedded in. The core team is well aware of what needs to be done but we now need to cascade that throughout the department. We have a lot of secondary legislation, and there are many different groups in the department that do legislation. That is why, when the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, tries to draw comparisons to, for example, primary legislation on Great British Railways, the two are not really comparable.

Secondary legislation for aviation is often developed with the CAA and then comes to the DfT, and likewise in maritime, where pretty much the whole process is within the Maritime and Coastguard Agency and then comes to a central process. There are a lot of different groups doing the secondary legislation and it is important that they fully understand what is expected by not only the Minister but noble Lords on the other Benches, such that we can get this through in a way that everybody understands and is able to agree with based on the evidence and the information provided.

These regulations amend four retained EU regulations relating to airworthiness and to balloons and sailplanes. The key element, as the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, mentioned, is the safety management system requirements that require organisations involved in the design or production of aeronautical products or parts to implement an SMS. This represents the culmination of many years of collaborative work across stakeholders, and will ensure better oversight and continuous improvement of aviation safety. It is not really something that one implements once—a safety management system is about continuous improvement.

The SI notes that the implementation timeline for compliance is not immediate, to allow time for organisations to prepare and develop adequate SMSs. This is in line with the guidance from the International Civil Aviation Organization—or ICAO—because, as the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, noted, it recognises that speed can sometimes be the enemy in these circumstances. That is about the speed of the implementation of the regulation and not the speed of the regulation coming forward; I will address that in due course.

However, we believe that the delay has had negligible impact on safety; obviously, the counterfactual is if had it been brought in earlier. We chose to press forward with the priorities that we did, some of which had enormous safety implications or massive economic implications. Noble Lords will understand that sometimes one has to make decisions in an imperfect world of appropriately limited resources.