Public Transport in Towns and Cities

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Monday 17th April 2023 Grand Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, I am well aware that I shall get about halfway through my speech and we shall then all be called to vote, but I shall carry on none the less.

I am enormously grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part in the debate today. There were so many insightful contributions, some quite spirited, and not all noble Lords were in agreement on some of the key matters of the day, which I shall come back to. Of course, my noble friend Lord Moylan opened the debate extremely well, as he always does, and I am very grateful to my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe for her role in chairing the committee. I remember my day in front of the committee very well indeed; it is always a pleasure to be grilled by people who share my ambitions—and, indeed, the enthusiasm for all things transport.

I start by noting and emphasising the clear alignment between many of the committee’s recommendations and the Government’s own ambitions for public transport in our towns and cities. To demonstrate, for example, in the recent Spring Budget, the Government announced a further round of city region sustainable transport settlements, which is the worst named scheme ever—or CRSTS. We have pledged another £8.8 billion over five years from 2027, which builds on the £5.7 billion provided in the first round of settlements. Noble Lords may think that that is a very large figure and that I am just banging it out, but why is it important?

The settlement is so important for cities outside London, to give them certainty so that they can plan for the future. That is precisely what we have done by indicating the amount of funding that will be available from 2027. If we are to meet our goal of ensuring that places outside London have public transport that is significantly closer to that which is in London, we need to make these very substantial and long-term commitments to spending in those areas. The committee called for block grants, and I shall come back to that later—because, of course, one size definitely does not fit all and never does with transport.

On buses, noble Lords will have noticed—and this was of great interest to my noble friend Lord Moylan—that we have, in recent weeks, taken a number of short, medium and long-term measures. We have extended the bus recovery grant and the £2 fare cap scheme until June 2023. I do not have any further information on that, and I know that the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, is very keen to understand where we go next. Clearly, we are looking at this. The noble Baroness also asked when we will know when patronage has settled. I suspect that we never will. My experience in my four years in the DfT, particularly in the past three years, is that it is never homogeneous.

I am going to take a little break, and we shall go and vote. I shall continue talking in due course.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, I will try to recover where I was, but I cannot wholly remember, so I will go back to the bit on buses because it is a topic of great importance. I had mentioned the bus recovery grant and the £2 fare cap, both of which have been extended. On lower patronage and knowing where it will settle, I point out that it will depend on the location and sometimes even be down to the route. The other thing to recall is that some of the elements of the national bus strategy and the bus service improvement plans are about growing patronage from wherever we are now. Therefore, I very much expect things not to be static and for changes to come for quite some time yet.

The DfT also announced further funding for the ZEBRA programme in Yorkshire, Norfolk, Leicester, Portsmouth and Hampshire, and the establishment of the new virtual bus centre of excellence to boost skills and good practice in the sector. That is key for local transport authorities, because they have a problem when it comes to capability and capacity. That is a topic that I will come back to in due course.

These measures show that the Government are committed both to maintaining a good standard of bus services—as the Built Environment Committee suggested that we do—and to building on these standards through the delivery of the national bus strategy. For those most ambitious local transport authorities that will lead, through the bus service improvement plans, to increasing patronage.

Noble Lords identify that frequency is really important. That is what we are trying to get to with the BSIPs, particularly in bigger cities, putting the user first and increasing frequencies to provide the sort of services needed. Then, in more rural areas, there are interventions such as demand-responsive transport—and indeed reliable services. A number of noble Lords pointed out that reliability is what the user really needs.

The DfT has also published its transport data strategy, which is hugely important. We have to encourage people to use the data provided by the DfT via the operators, so that they can collate that into apps, and the users then get a better experience because they know when buses will arrive and how frequent they are. My noble friend Lady Eaton highlighted how important it is to have that information to hand. Those of us who live in London take it utterly for granted, and we must make sure that it is rolled out as far as possible.

This is not an exhaustive list of how the Government are aligned with the Built Environment Committee. Our announcements include £1 billion-worth of funding in the third round of the levelling-up fund as well as additional funding for highways maintenance, and indeed many more. The Government are not sitting still. We absolutely recognise the points made in the report; as I note, we did not agree with all of them, but we agreed with the vast majority.

The next subject I want to peruse is devolution, local leadership, capability, capacity and all the things that go with that. I have found the debate today a little confusing and hard to rationalise in parts. I hear some noble Lords wanting an integrated national strategy for the whole of transport, but that sounds very communist to me, and I am not entirely sure how one would achieve it. Other noble Lords are very much focusing on local needs for local people and local accountability, then others say things like, “It’s dreadful that central government demands so many things from local authorities”, when I am not entirely sure that the Government do. I am not sure we have the levers to do that, particularly in transport, because transport is, and has been for quite a long time, highly devolved to local transport authorities. Issues such as local transport planning rest with local authorities; they simply cannot be done from Whitehall, nor should they. This is very much by design. We rely on local and regional organisations to work together to identify and utilise opportunities for network improvements. The noble Baroness, Lady Vere, sitting at her desk in Horseferry Road, cannot do that: it is just impossible. We have to create the right framework and provide the right guidance and funding to local authorities, and then they need to run with it. That is what is so important.

The levelling-up White Paper committed to extending, deepening and simplifying local devolution in England

“so that by 2030, every part of England that wants one will have a devolution deal”

because we have seen the enormous success of devolution deals to date in the world of transport. Noble Lords will have heard me refer to the CRSTS. That is billions and billions of pounds that we give to those areas with devolution deals. It is long-term funding—it allows them to plan, and they have the capacity and capability to do so. This is the goal; this is where we want to be, but we cannot be there at this moment.

I look at the years when I have been in the department. Sometimes when you get bids for funding, frankly, they are not very good, and I cannot in good conscience turn around and allocate taxpayers’ funding to bids that are not very good. They simply would not fly. That is why we need both processes. Highly skilled larger areas with devolution deals can get their long-term settlements but, until we have greater local responsibility and accountability via devolution deals, we will have to have a bidding process. I am okay with that balance. However, there will also be smaller local transport authorities which, if you gave them a block grant, would not have a hope of ever being able to build anything significant. It is unfair to keep those people out in the cold, because the benefits of transport often go to users who are not in your area at all. That is the whole point of transport: it gets you from A to B.

Allied to that, we come to the topic of planning integration and connectivity, which is really important. Transport integration is the holy grail, we need to make sure we get it done as well as possible. That is why having devolution deals for transport is very beneficial: because authorities can plan on a holistic basis over a significant area.

What do we want to do with the buses? There are the bus service improvement plans, but it is really important that they are used to update their local transport plans. I think it was my noble friend Lady Eaton who noted that 61% have not been updated since 2011. If I was the leader of a local council, I would feel a little worried about that, to put it mildly—but this is what local accountability and responsibility is all about. We must provide guidance to local transport authorities, and that is exactly what we will do. We will consult on guidance on the local transport plans fairly soon, we hope, but it is only guidance. Local transport authorities then have the responsibility, as the representatives in their local area, to build them into local transport plans. That is absolutely key.

Of course those local transport plans should align with an area’s broader local development plans—that is important—but it is a complex picture and the timelines may be misaligned sometimes. To set out some sort of Whitehall-dictated “thou shalt do this on this date between this plan and this plan” is not going to work. We have to give the responsibility and the accountability to local areas to decide for themselves what works and what does not. Quite frankly, if it does not work and they do not get the best for their local community, voters can vote them out at the next local election.

I am well aware that there will be further discussion around local transport plans and local plans and how they are going to work together via the infrastructure delivery strategy in the Levelling-up and Regeneration Bill currently passing through your Lordships’ House. I would welcome further discussion—I find it very interesting—but I do not see it as a solution that, at the moment, looks likely to achieve the best outcomes for local people.

Moving on to the other rather vexed and difficult question, I think it is worth reflecting on car usage. I will repeat what I said when I gave evidence to the committee, which is that the Government do not have targets on car usage; we have targets on other things to make public transport, cycling and walking the first choice for travel, but we are not making anyone do that. We believe that it would be the best option for many urban areas, as was published in Gear Change. We have had a very open and honest conversation about what we want to see, particularly in our more built-up areas, in terms of cycling and walking. Furthermore, we made changes to the Highway Code to make sure that those who could cause the most harm bear the greatest responsibility. We want to improve our streets, particularly in urban areas where there can be tensions. I do not want those tensions to exist, but I cannot mandate them not to. We have to create the environment for that.

Road space allocation also causes quite a lot of difference of opinion. I say once again that no one size fits all for road space allocation. The Government can revise guidance for local transport plans and refresh the Manual for Streets, which is what we are doing. With those two documents, we have to leave it to local transport authorities, listening to their local communities, to decide what they want to do. We are not going to make them put in any cycle lanes or bus lanes. It is up to them. We think they should, and if they do not then other things might happen in terms of funding streams. At the moment, they simply would not get any funding for bus lanes—but if they do not want any, why should they? This is important. Road space allocation goes back to local responsibility and accountability, although I accept that there are tensions and it is difficult. Every single street in every single place in this country will need a different approach, and that is why local people doing it is so important.

I am conscious that I am desperately running out of time, but I want to comment on something very close to my heart and those of many noble Lords. My noble friends Lord Carrington and Lady Eaton highlighted transport safety. That is key to attracting people back. Bus service improvement plans should include how local transport authorities and operators will ensure not only that services are safe but that they feel safe. We are also taking forward 13 recommendations by the independent Transport Champions for Tackling Violence against Women and Girls on street safety, doing research on safety and the accessibility of bus stations and stops. I have many more things that I will endeavour to put in a letter. I really do welcome the work of the committee and hope that it continues to delve into these matters around transport. They are not easy, but ensuring accountability and responsibility locally is the best way forward.

Transport: Investment Plans

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Thursday 30th March 2023 Grand Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, I am very grateful to all noble Lords who have contributed. As ever, I will reflect carefully on those contributions. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, for once again giving noble Lords the opportunity to discuss buses. It is a subject close to my heart, and I think we all agree that we want the same thing; we are dealing with how, on the pitch that we are on, we can achieve the sorts of services that we would like to see.

Let me start by commenting on the announcement on 9 March. Essentially, the £40 billion set out in that Statement was the capital investment for transport over the next two financial years. Sometimes it is easy in transport because the figures get very big very quickly, but it is a significant amount of money that we are going to invest in our transport systems—that is across all modes—and it does not include the further funding that is committed for revenue support in terms of the services as well.

I shall try to focus my reflections today on rail, both high-speed and traditional, and local transport. I accept that there were some comments on active travel and roads, the responses to which I may put in a letter after the debate—certainly, the figure given for the reduction in active travel funding I just do not recognise.

When we restated the amount of funding that will be forthcoming in the next two financial years, we did so in the face of two quite significant challenges. The first is the overall decline in the number of passengers on the railways and on buses, as well as a change in the nature of travel, because fewer people are going to work —indeed, we have seen a welcome rise in the amount of leisure travel taking place. The second is financial. There has been significant inflation within the construction sector. That is not a homogeneous situation; some things are inflating at a higher rate than others, and it is time to reflect on the impact of that inflation and to consider how we can de-risk the investments that we want to make.

The Transport Secretary’s statement set out which sections of HS2 the Government are prioritising to deliver as planned and which sections need to be rephased to take into account that inflationary pressure on the cost base. Cost estimates for each phase of the programme will be published. His announcement clearly requires officials to work through the consequences with HS2 and the supply chain to firm up the information that we have.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

Does the Minister have data for that publication?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The six-monthly updates will continue to be laid before Parliament as they have been previously. We will of course endeavour to put in every single update as much information as we have at that time. We will not have all the information immediately, because various things will be worked through at a different time.

We confirmed that the first stage of HS2 will be delivered as planned between Old Oak Common and Birmingham Curzon Street by 2033. Sometimes, I am mildly disappointed by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, making comments such as “serious doubt about the project” and “unlikely to go beyond Birmingham”. I am not sure where such observations have come from, because we have been quite clear in our plans.

On the rail system more generally, as the Secretary of State said during his Bradshaw address,

“operating the railways is currently financially unsustainable and it isn’t fair to continue asking taxpayers to foot the bill”.

We have to be very careful about the costs, thinking particularly about the depressed revenue that we are seeing at the moment.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

Can I invite the Minister to look carefully at the National Audit Office report?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I will of course look very carefully at the National Audit Office report. I do not know that it is saying that it believes that the line is unlikely to go beyond Birmingham; again, I would not know where its evidence would come from for a statement such as that.

We have an opportunity to improve the rail and local transport networks and to adapt to the needs of passengers today. There is a rare chance of some sort of redesign so that the system is fit for the future, because, as I said at the outset, I think all noble Lords want the same thing.

I will now turn to comments about HS2. The Transport Secretary has been very clear that Old Oak Common will act as a temporary London terminus while Euston is completed, but I do not think that any noble Lord should be under the impression that this will somehow be substandard. It will be probably the best-connected and largest new railway station ever built in the UK; it will have 14 platforms—six high speed and eight conventional—and it will be a transport superhub, providing connections to Heathrow via the Elizabeth line and, of course, high-speed rail services through to various parts of the country.

It was already planned that Euston would open later than Old Oak Common. However, we have decided not to proceed to full construction of Euston station in the next two years, which is the period that the Statement looked at, due to affordability and profiling issues. There is an opportunity to look again at the Euston station design to ensure that it is affordable and delivers for both the local community and passengers.

Following this debate, I will set out in a letter as much as I can about the phasing for the different elements of High Speed 2, including going to Crewe and beyond. It is important to put that on record.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her offer to write a letter. Will she also comment on the lack of a firm design for not the station itself but the approaches to Euston? My information is that there is no option that is actually safe to build, and that is quite critical.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I will certainly include that in the letter. I do not have anything with me today.

I turn now to buses, which, as many noble Lords have pointed out, are the absolute backbone of our public transport system. The national bus strategy, which we published back in March 2021, is a long-term strategy. It is important to understand the role of the BSIPs—bus service improvement plans. We asked all local transport authorities to prepare one, which they did, and we used them to look at how to prioritise funding. To a certain extent, there was no bidding process: we did not ask for bids but to review all the bus service improvement plans.

Noble Lords may ask themselves, “Where did these bus service improvement plans come from? Who inputted into them?” We were clear in the national bus strategy that they must have the input of local people; there had to be a passenger board, or whatever they wanted to call it. Listening to the input of local people and businesses allows the bus service improvement plan to have local accountability. I have heard two different things today: that we need to give more powers to local authorities but also that national government should take control of the bus network, as some noble Lords have suggested. Local accountability is really important.

Funding is absolutely key. The Government are spending an additional £3 billion. This is the largest investment in buses in a generation, and it is on top of funding that still goes out to local transport authorities or bus operators to support fares, such as the bus service operating grant of £250 million a year, and the concessions payment of about £1 billion a year. Local transport authorities also get funding in the block grant for tendered services. Unfortunately, some local authorities, particularly rural ones, decide not to use that money on tendered services. That is a disappointment, and local people should be holding those councils to account for those things.

Therefore, with the bus service improvement plans and subsequently the enhanced partnerships, which are a partnership between the transport authority and the bus operator taking into account what has been said by the passengers, that is how bus networks are planned locally. So it is not quite right to say that it is left to the market, because local transport authorities have quite a significant amount of leverage over the bus operators in agreeing what the enhanced partnerships should say, and 75% of enhanced partnerships have now been “made”—that is, they are in existence. Of course, if the enhanced partnership is not working or it is not what the local authority wants to do, it is at liberty to start franchising, and we know that places such as Greater Manchester have already done that. So there are many ways in which local transport authorities can exert power over the bus network to provide what their local people want.

I accept, as I did earlier today in the Oral Question, that the funding is short term at the moment, until 30 June, and that there is an enormous amount of analysis to be done: the impact of the £2 bus fare cap will be important—but also some of the BSIP funding, the revenue side of it in particular, is being used to support fares in places such as Manchester, Liverpool, West Yorkshire and Lancashire, so that will be important. The capital spending from BSIP will take slightly longer to come in, because that is all about bus priority, bus lanes and all those sorts of things, so we need to give that a little more time. However, the market is still in transition, so we are analysing where we are and looking at what any long-term future support might look like.

I know that the right reverend Prelate is a great champion of rural areas, and he was concerned that rural authorities would not have the resources to be able to do the BSIPs that we ask them to do. In fact, we gave them the money to provide the resources for that. We gave them £23 million to work up their BSIPs and enhanced partnerships and, subsequently, we gave all the local authorities that were not successful in getting funding—about half of them—£11 million to make sure that they could roll out the bus service improvement plans that they had. There are many things that they could do to improve services which do not necessarily require funding.

The right reverend Prelate will have heard me speak before about demand-responsive transport in rural areas—the bus fare cap is very good for rural areas, particularly on longer routes—and the BSOG really supports fares in rural areas as well. In addition, community transport is important in rural areas, which is also taken into account in any BSIP.

I am very conscious that I have 45 seconds in which to do rail. I recognise the expertise of the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, in this area and his great interest in rail, and from a DfT perspective we recognise that performance needs to improve across the system. We have had numerous conversations about Avanti and TPE, and we know the impact of removal of rest-day working there. However, at the heart of it are the passengers, and GBR, the transition team for Great British Railways, is looking at that 30-year vision for our railways. We continue to invest billions of pounds in our railways for the sorts of local railways that the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, wants to see. Now we have to look through the RNEP, make the correct decisions based on current passenger numbers, which again are not the same all over the country—some areas are seeing higher passenger return then others. Therefore the RNEP is being reviewed by Ministers at the moment and that will be published; the investment will continue, and that is part of the £40 million.

I note that I have gone over my 12 minutes. I know that there are many things that I have not been able to cover but I will certainly write a letter. Once again, I am always grateful to talk about railways and local transport—both subjects that are very close to my heart.

Bus Services

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Thursday 30th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Taylor of Stevenage]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of trends in the provision of bus services in England since 2019.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, Covid-19 resulted in significant reductions to passenger numbers and bus service levels. To mitigate that, the Government have provided over £2 billion in emergency and recovery funding to keep vital bus services running. On 9 February we announced a further extension of that support until 30 June. As a result, bus service provision in England outside London remained at over 85% of pre-Covid levels in 2021-22.

[Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)]

My Lords, last week two separate zero-emission buses projects, in Milton Keynes and Stevenage, collapsed when the private sector partner, Arriva, pulled out, saying it was because passenger numbers had not recovered after the pandemic. What specific assessment have the Government done of the reasons for the 18% drop in passenger numbers since the pandemic? What more can be done to encourage the private sector to participate in these zero-emission pilots?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, it is very disappointing that Arriva decided it was no longer willing to take part in those projects. Other bus operators are taking part in projects elsewhere in the country, and indeed Arriva itself is still participating in other separate zero-emission buses projects. Essentially, we very much hope that it will come back to the table once, and if, passenger numbers increase.

The reduction in passenger numbers is related to changes to concessionary travel and to people going to work and working from home. We believe that we have stabilised at this point, and now we look forward to bussing back better.

[Lord McLoughlin (Con)]

My Lords, I draw your Lordships’ attention to my registered interest as chairman of Transport for the North. May I ask my noble friend to give some long-term assurance on the amount of support we are giving to bus companies? What has been done has been very welcome, but there is uncertainty about what will happen after 30 June, and buses are needed as a reliable form of public transport for our country.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I absolutely accept what my noble friend is saying. From the Government’s perspective, we have had to see what happens to patronage and where service levels have ended up, given the current levels of support. We are also looking at the impact of the £2 bus fare cap. All these things are going into our analysis of what we may be able to do to support the bus sector after 30 June.

[Lord Watts (Lab)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that what is called for is regulation, and that if we reintroduce it right across the board and give those powers back to local authorities, they will be far more efficient in their use of bus resources?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I keep hearing this from the Labour Party, and I am not entirely sure which regulations and powers Labour is proposing to give back to local transport authorities. As the noble Lord well knows, at the moment, local transport authorities are required to produce an enhanced partnership, which is between them and the bus operators. If they do not want to do that, they can take all the powers they want and franchise the whole system.

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

My Lords, will my noble friend be issuing guidance to plumbers and electricians on how to carry their tools and equipment on a bus, especially in outer London, since the Mayor of London appears determined to deprive them of their vans?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Questions is fun today, isn’t it? The Government will not be issuing guidance to plumbers and electricians, on the basis that they probably know how to carry their tools. We are looking with great interest at the Mayor of London’s proposed extension of ULEZ. I would also point out that he announced—yesterday, I think—something called the Superloop for outer London, which sounded very new. However, I checked and in my area that includes the existing X26, so the Superloop involves quite a substantial amount of rebranding, as often happens with the Mayor of London.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

Does the Minister accept that there is an urgent need for reform of bus service funding and an end to this hand-to-mouth approach caused by the short timescales for Department for Transport decision-making? Does she also accept that any new funding mechanism should be based not on competitive bids but on greater devolution and less interference from the Department for Transport?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I believe I have already addressed the point about the short-term nature of the funding. I agree it is not ideal; however, it has been necessary as the whole system has transitioned. I reassure the noble Baroness that we will also be looking at BSOG reform this year. To remind noble Lords, this is a very important amount of money: some £250 million goes into the sector, which keeps bus fares low, but we have to make sure that it also supports net zero. There are all sorts of different things we can do with bus funding. In 2021-22, 57% of all income for the bus sector came from central and local government.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Shinkwin, is participating remotely.

[Lord Shinkwin (Con) [V]]

My Lords, many people rely on buses to get to work, especially in cities, including, of course, disabled people. Given the urgent need to close the disability employment gap, which continues to be at a high of around 30%, what assessment have the Government made of the impact on disabled people’s ability to get to work in light of the trends in the provision of bus services?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

As we set out in our long-term national bus strategy, ensuring the safe and comfortable movement of all people on buses, including those with accessibility issues, is an absolute priority. I will take back to the department my noble friend’s specific question about disabled people. In a similar vein, it is also worth mentioning some further good news: the accessibility information regulations should be laid today, which, I am sure, many noble Lords will welcome.

[Lord Blunkett (Lab)]

My Lords, I wonder if the Minister would be kind enough to go back to the department for me and then drop me a line on the appalling treatment of the South Yorkshire Mayoral Combined Authority in respect of central government funding. It is a mystery to all of us how the Government can talk about better buses when buses are actually disappearing.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

We asked all local transport authorities to prepare bus service improvement plans; some were better than others, and the best ones were given funding. Regarding the ones that were not so good, we supported the local transport authorities by providing them with revenue support so they could upskill their staff and improve their BSIPs for the future. I believe that is what happened in South Yorkshire, and I very much hope it has been able to use the money we gave it successfully.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend will be aware of the importance to rural bus services of concessionary bus fares. What will the future of these fares be after June?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

We are not planning any changes to the levels of concessionary bus fares, but we are looking closely at the implementation of the concessionary fares scheme. Over the course of 2023 we will look closely at the reimbursement guidance and the calculator to make sure that bus operators are getting the correct amount of money for the people they carry.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, the statutory concessionary bus fare scheme provides free travel for pensioners and disabled people from 9.30 am to 11 pm Monday to Friday, and at any time on weekends and public holidays. Given the change in use patterns, that people needing to get to medical appointments often have to travel before 9.30 am, and that many older people—including someone I was talking to in Liverpool at the weekend—are providing childcare that enables other members of their family to work, should that statutory concession not operate 24 hours a day on weekdays as well?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, we have looked at the concessionary scheme and we have no plans to change it at this time. However, I remind the noble Baroness that the £2 fare cap is currently in place, and that will benefit those who are not able to use the scheme early in the morning.

[Baroness Blackwood of North Oxford (Con)]

My Lords, my understanding is that when a bus is cancelled at very short notice, often because of congestion, that data is not filtering through in real time to Google Maps or any of the national APIs. This makes it very difficult for people to plan their journeys and has an impact on economic productivity. Will the Minister look into this and see what can be done to put it right?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I will happily take that back to the department. The Government set up the bus open data service a few years ago now, and for the first time we were able to consolidate all the information from the bus operators and make great strides towards providing the real-time information that passengers need. But I will certainly take that point back to the department to make sure we are considering it.

Avanti West Coast

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Thursday 23rd March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Goddard of Stockport]

To ask His Majesty’s Government how they justify further extending the contract for Avanti West Coast, given its service record over the last six months.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, Avanti was awarded a six-month contract in October 2022 to provide the opportunity for its recovery plan to yield demonstrable improvements. It has done this, with services increased and delays and cancellations reduced. In this next six-month period, Avanti will need to do more to win back passengers with a reliable and dependable service. With accountability comes the chance to put things right.

[Lord Goddard of Stockport (LD)]

I thank the Minister for another magnificent effort in defending the indefensible. My question is quite simple. Will she agree to meet with me, as a frequent flyer on Avanti trains, to hear the other side of the coin? Tuesday’s Hansard reports her commenting that not all train delays are due to Avanti, which is true. The other side of the coin is that Avanti has completely changed the rosters and rotas for staff. They are now on 10 and 11-hour shifts, meaning that they have a 20-minute window at any station they land at before leaving it. If the train is 30 minutes late, there is no time to change. The next train is then late, and it is an ever-decreasing circle. This is affecting the staff.

The Minister also commented about sickness levels. Staff on Avanti trains feel undervalued and overworked, which cannot be a recipe for an outward-facing railway system. If Avanti cannot treat its staff with respect when all they want to do is give us a good service, somebody else should be looking after that railway system.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I would be very happy to meet with the noble Lord to discuss Avanti, but I hope to offer him something slightly better—a meeting with the Rail Minister. I will extend that offer to all noble Lords so that we might discuss the issues that they are experiencing on Avanti. He might be able to reassure the noble Lord that we are taking these issues very seriously and want Avanti to put them right.

[Baroness Bryan of Partick (Lab)]

My Lords, as a Scottish user of Avanti, I hope the Minister understands the despair that we felt when we heard this decision. On the west coast, we look in envy at the east coast trains. Can she explain why the west coast line was not taken into public ownership after such a disastrous performance?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am aware of some of the challenges of travelling down the west coast from Scotland. Many of them are due to infrastructure changes happening in the north of England. Sometimes it is tempting to compare the west coast with the east coast. One other element of the east coast that is worth thinking about is that it has competition. There are open-access operators on the east coast as well. That is a contributing factor to making the services better all round.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend will be aware of the severe delays and disruption caused by TransPennine Express, which seems to be competing very well with Avanti on its record. Will she update the House on the Government’s plans for a possible renewal of such a hopeless operator? Will it be allowed more time, or will it be put out to tender for other franchise operators?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The current contract for TransPennine Express comes to an end on 28 May. It too is under a recovery plan, but TransPennine Express and Avanti have one thing in common that no other train operating company shares: they have suffered the immediate and simultaneous withdrawal of rest-day working by the trade unions. That has had an enormous impact on their services. It is worth bearing in mind that no other train operating company has had that.

[Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)]

My Lords, it is disappointing to hear the Minister again blaming the workforce for the problems of Avanti. Rail passengers in the north-west and Wales will have greeted the six-month extension to Avanti’s contract with incredulity. Over the past six months it has broken records for delays and cancellations yet, astonishingly, earlier this week the Times reported that the Government could offer Avanti a further 10-year extension at the end of this six-month extension. Can the Minister please now rule this out?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am absolutely not blaming the workforce here. I have never said that I was, but the noble Baroness will be unsurprised to hear that I am putting a little blame at the door of the trade unions. On the process for the next round of contracts for the west coast—because there will have to be a contract—the publication of the 10-year period was a statutory notice. Should it go to Avanti, the six-month contracts would be taken off it. Should it go to another operator, it might be for up to 10 years. The noble Baroness should not read too much into it; it could be any period up to 10 years.

[The Lord Bishop of Manchester]

My Lords, as a fellow traveller on Avanti, often in the same coach as the noble Lord, Lord Goddard, I agree entirely with his comments. It is not only that trains are delayed or cancelled; sometimes the services on those trains are not provided, particularly food. These are long journeys and often at the very last moment, when you are sitting on the train and have been told that there will be food, you are then told, “We haven’t been able to load the food; there are no refreshments on the journey”. Can we please bear in mind that it is a whole service? The staff are wonderful, but they are labouring against impossible circumstances at the moment.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The right reverend Prelate is entirely right. That is one of the things on which we hold Avanti to account. Passenger experience is at the heart of what we want to do with our railway system, and as we look to the future for Avanti, and indeed for all train operating companies, passenger experience is one of the key things that they are judged on.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, since Avanti has been rewarded with more after such a record of failure, what incentive is there for other train operating companies to maintain the highest standards and to improve? When the Minister gave us her answers on the Statement the day before yesterday, she was not specific. Can she make clear now whether Avanti will face financial penalties for its failures over recent months?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

All train operating companies face financial penalties or financial jeopardy from their performance, as all train operating companies have performance fees. When the current period comes to an end at the end of March, there will be an independent evaluation of Avanti’s performance, and performance fees will be set accordingly. Two issues really impact performance at the moment—the ongoing issues around train crew and availability, and growing concerns around infrastructure, which is why our reforms to bring track and train closer together are so vital.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that in the last quarter of 2022, Avanti achieved a historic low, with only 45% of its trains on time? Sad character that I am, I have looked back through the statistics on train travel on the west coast main line. That 45% low never happened under British Rail, the London, Midland and Scottish Railway or the London and North Western Railway. I gave up when it came to the London and Birmingham Railway in the 19th century because I was bored with my own research. Is it fair or right that, despite that historic low, taxpayers should fund dividends to shareholders and bonuses to management while those of us who travel regularly on Avanti would rather walk than catch a train?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am delighted to be able to tell the noble Lord that currently 90% of Avanti trains arrive within 15 minutes of their scheduled arrival time. That is up from 75% in early January. I am sure that noble Lords can see the trajectory. The dividend to which he refers related to a financial period to March 2021, well over two years ago now and not related to the current performance issues.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

My Lords, I have been travelling on the west coast line for more than 40 years. Admittedly this is anecdotal, but my experience was that until Covid the service was actually quite good on Avanti. So was Virgin before Avanti. It was certainly better than the east coast line, quite apart from the fact that the east coast line went to Edinburgh whereas the west coast line went to the fair city of Glasgow.

Twice the Minister has mentioned infrastructure problems. Historically that was the problem with the east coast line, but there was sufficient investment to improve it. What is the nature of the infrastructure problems on the west coast line and why have they not been dealt with in the 13 years that the Government have been in charge?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The Government are putting record investment into our railway infrastructure. There are two issues around infrastructure. The first is the long-term plans that need to be put in place to upgrade it, but there are also short-term issues. For example, overnight there was cable theft at Wolverhampton. Cable theft is not Avanti’s fault, but it has caused some of its trains to be delayed this morning. We have to clamp down on the short-term problems but also continue to invest in the west coast main line, which is exactly what we are doing.

Seafarers’ Wages Bill [HL]

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Tuesday 21st March 2023 Lords Chamber

64: Page 10, line 1, leave out subsection (6)

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, I begin by expressing my gratitude to all noble Lords for their thoughtful consideration of this important legislation. As the Bill progressed through your Lordships’ House and the other place, the Government listened carefully to concerns raised by parliamentarians, and we engaged further with stakeholders. The amendments before your Lordships’ House today address many of the concerns raised and ensure that the Bill is effective and enforceable, simple to apply and delivers its intended benefits to seafarers.

The amendments to be considered today may appear numerous, but many are minor and technical. The amendments can be considered according to four themes: switching powers to duties; clarifying matters around equivalence declarations; switching the duty for setting a surcharge from the harbour authority to the Secretary of State; and, finally, changes to regulations, guidance and directions, most of which come from the previous three themes.

I turn to the first set of amendments, which change the previously discretionary powers of harbour authorities to request declarations, impose surcharges and refuse access to harbours to mandatory duties. Through continued engagement with port stakeholders, we were informed that harbour authorities would be unlikely to exercise their discretionary powers without being directed to do so. Therefore, this change from discretionary powers to duties will strengthen the Bill.

Rail Services

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Tuesday 21st March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, this Statement sums up the mess our infrastructure has become under a succession of Conservative Governments. I agree with the Government on a couple of points: I welcome progress in resolving strike action, so far as it has occurred. That has been allowed to drift on for far too long and was indeed stoked by the previous Secretary of State. It has badly damaged trust in railway services just when recovery from the impact of the pandemic should have been crucial. I also agree that discussions on who owns the railways is irrelevant, because the Government have effectively nationalised them and taken responsibility. That is the important thing: the Government have taken responsibility for how the railways are run.

However, turning to the rest of the Statement, I have some major points of difference. First, awarding Avanti a six-month extension is an extraordinary decision, and I mean that in the proper sense of that term. FirstGroup has failed in this franchise and continues to fail with TransPennine Express. Other train operating companies have faced exactly the same pressures—Covid, weather, strikes—but by better management and decision-making, they have more effectively minimised the impact on customers. So my first question is: how badly does FirstGroup have to do to lose either of these franchises? Because they are truly being rewarded for failure.

The improvements that the Government cite at Avanti seem very recent and very insubstantial. My question is: there have been months of past poor service; will Avanti or its shareholders face any financial penalties for poor service, repeated cancellations, late running and systematically misleading the public and the Government about cancellation rates by cancelling late on the night before? Another question refers to the 100 extra drivers that the Government cite. Can the Minister give us a view as to whether that is enough in the Government’s eyes? How long will it take to train those drivers?

Reference is also made to a new discounted ticket scheme on some routes. What proportion of routes will have this new discounted scheme? I remind the Minister that what passengers want is to be able to book ahead, because advance fares are cheaper, and they want to be able to book ahead on all routes. When will they be able to do this? Have the Government just handed Avanti another golden cheque, or are there some useful conditions to this funding? I recall that Transport for London has very stringent conditions attached to its funding. What are the stringent conditions attached to the funding of Avanti for the next few months? While we are talking about railways, is it true, as is reported in the Daily Telegraph today, that the Government are about to announce a reduction in passenger rights to delay repay compensation? If that is true, it really is adding insult to injury.

Finally, the Statement looks vaguely at the issue of reform, which is, of course, long overdue. There is a great deal of consensus on the issue of reform, so when can we expect legislation on it? The Government have repeatedly told us that simplification of ticketing is just around the corner and that it does not need legislation, so I ask the Minister when we can expect to see it happen.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

I am grateful to the noble Baronesses, Lady Taylor and Lady Randerson, for their contributions to this Oral Statement repeat. To a certain extent I am always very sad when I do not get to read out the Oral Statement, because sometimes it helps to set the tone and remind noble Lords of what was in the Statement. There were certainly some elements that may have slipped the minds of noble Lords to date. I will go through as many of the issues as I can and, I hope, helpfully provide those bits of information that may have slipped noble Lords’ minds.

I appreciate that the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, welcomed the news on the strikes. It is good that the RMT workers “overwhelmingly”—their word, not ours—accepted the National Rail offer by 76% on a 90% turnout, which leads one to ask why the RMT chooses not to put a very similar offer to its members around the train operating companies. We believe it would be extremely beneficial for them to do so and may well bring strikes to an end, but they, for whatever their reasons, choose not to, and that is extraordinarily disappointing. As we all know, it causes an immense amount of delay and disruption to passengers’ journeys and is something that we absolutely want to avoid.

The noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, said that Avanti “has flouted all attempts to improve services”—except that it has improved services, so I could not quite put those things together. If we look at what Avanti has done, it has increased its weekday services, in many areas back to pre-Covid levels. There has been an enormous increase, up to 40% in some areas —from 180 weekday services a day up to 264. Cancellations are now down from 25% to 4.2%. I accept that needs to go lower, but I think all noble Lords can agree that that is an improved service, which the noble Baroness was not even willing to admit has even happened. Then we know that at least 90% of services arrive within 15 minutes of their scheduled arrival time. I can confirm that today 92.5% arrived within 15 minutes of their scheduled arrival time, and there was just one partial cancellation, the 7.30, which would have already departed by now.

It is also worth noting that sometimes the train operating companies have other issues that they need to look at when it comes to the challenges that they face. For example, today—and I have noted the 92.5% of services running within 15 minutes of their planned time—the train operating company had to deal with a trespasser at Cheadle Hulme; a technical issue affecting a London Northwestern service, which caused the Avanti services to be late; a Network Rail track defect between Rugby and Hillmorton Junction; a track failure at Queen’s Park, and a safety inspection of the track between Coventry and Rugby. None of those things could reasonably be put at the door of Avanti to say, “That’s entirely your fault.” Sometimes, it is not. Sometimes we need to recognise that the Government’s plans for bringing together track and train under GBR are to try to deal with such issues. We have issues with the infrastructure, and we need the services to be within that ecosystem such that those issues are minimised as much as possible.

I accept, however, and my right honourable friend the Transport Secretary accepts it too, that this is a journey. This is a reward for recovery, which the noble Baroness was not willing to accept has happened, and not for completion of all of the issues that Avanti might have. That is why this is a recovery plan, and it is why the extension is only for six months, because we believe that further improvements are necessary. We need more reliable weekend services; we need a further reduction in cancellations, and we need improved passenger communication for planned and unplanned disruption.

The noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, then talked about TP and there being “no … excuses” for its poor performance. There are, however, some issues that it would be wise for the noble Baroness to understand, and I am very happy to help her understand them. The first is sickness. The sickness rates among train crews and those providing training at TPE are extraordinary: more than twice the level of other train operating companies. That cannot be right. Why might that be happening? I would also point the noble Baroness to the lack of rest day working, which was—simultaneously and with no warning—withdrawn. We believe that was co-ordinated by ASLEF and it meant that, all of a sudden, various train operating companies that suffered this—it was mostly Avanti and TPE—were forced to reduce their timetables. They did not want to reduce them. Train crews and drivers had been doing voluntary overtime on this basis for decades, and then all of a sudden, it was withdrawn and there was a consequent impact on service. That cannot be laid at the door of the management; it just cannot. It is up to the management to try to fix it, and that is why they are recruiting the train drivers. I am very content to reassure the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, that we are aware of the number of train drivers who are coming through. There are almost 100—obviously there is phasing over three years—and we are reassured that those train drivers will do the trick.

The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, asked what financial impact there would be. There is a vigorous performance evaluation system looking at operational performance, passenger experience and financial management, working with National Rail, train operating companies and their shareholders. That is how they are judged: it is independently evaluated and that is absolutely right. It is done in accordance with the contract that they signed up for. That is only fair.

I have said before that legislation will come forward when parliamentary time allows. I will not comment on speculation in the Telegraph; I have not read that newspaper today. On the discounted routes, I will have to write to the noble Baroness, but I can assure her that Avanti does not use any P-codes, so she should rest assured in that area.

What I am struck by from all this is the lack of willingness to understand that it is a very complex system; the levers that the train operating companies have are not always within their gift, and neither of the noble Baronesses who have spoken so far have offered any alternative. The only alternative that I am aware of is that the Labour Party has to date—and we are still a little way off from a general election—made £62 billion of unfunded commitments for the rail industry. We look after taxpayers’ money. It is really important that we do. We need a modern railway that works seven days a week. That is what we are aiming for and that is what I think our reforms will deliver.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, may I just ask the Minister—perhaps I missed it—about bonus payments to executives? I may have missed it, but why do we think those are paid?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am very happy to discuss what I know about it. Obviously, bonus payments are a matter for the companies themselves. They are not authorised by DfT or anything like that; it is a matter for the companies. There is often this thing about—and I think the noble Baroness referred to it—dividends, and I think it was £12 million. I cannot attest as to whether that £12 million is right or not, but I know that dividends that were agreed quite some time ago relate to a period from pre-Covid. Noble Lords may or may not be aware that the independent evaluation of the different rail contracts has been published only up to September 2021. There is still some more information to come; there is always a lag. Sometimes people say, “You are rewarding for failure.” No, that would be for a period that is not the current period; it would be for a period that was quite some time ago, because we, quite rightly given the complexities of the railway system, take the time for independent people to evaluate by the different criteria that are clearly set out, the different reasons why delays happen, why cancellations happen or why a company may or may not be performing as it should. Of course, we publish those things, but there is always a delay. Therefore, the money might not match up with the period that we are currently in. That is always important to remember.

[Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)]

Can the Minister kindly clarify the bonus situation? If she cannot clarify it now, then I will be happy to receive her response in writing. Which period do those bonusses cover? I am sorry, I have given my speech to Hansard, but more than £4 million in bonuses was given to senior managers. I am sure that the Minister will understand that, in these very difficult times for rail passengers, for them to see senior executives in that company rewarded with very significant financial bonuses really goes against the grain. Therefore, I would be most grateful to know what period those bonuses cover.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I will put that in writing. I have some data here on executive bonuses. The total amount for the executive team for the financial year to 31 March 2021—a little while ago, which obviously covers a prior period—was £279,059. For the executive team, the Virgin Trains bit, it was more, at £2.5 million, but that of course related to a period a long time previously. The following year, total bonuses were £461,000.

I want to put on record that 20% of train drivers earn over £70,000 a year. I am not necessarily comparing the two, but this focus on bonuses for senior executives sometimes means that we do not look at what has happened to train drivers’ pay, which has gone up by more than the average over 10 years. As I say, 20% of them earn over £70,000 a year.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, the Statement refers to an extension to 15 October this year and says that the department is looking for improvements from Avanti over the next few months. It talks about more reliable weekend services, continued reductions in cancellations and improvements in passenger information during planned and unplanned disruption. Can the Minister say more about the measures that will be used to ensure that we get those improvements? If we are back here again in September and we have not had those improvements, where will we stand? Avanti needs to know that the Government are prepared, if need be, to take away its contract. At the moment, looking at the report, I am worried that they are not prepared to do that, and Avanti needs to hear from the Government that they are. Otherwise, there is no impetus to improve.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Absolutely. For the complete and utter avoidance of doubt, the Government are considering and will consider all options for both Avanti and TPE if they do not meet the required level of service. All the improvements we are talking about—to weekend services and passenger communications, and reducing cancellations—are set out in the recovery plan agreed with the Office of Rail and Road. It is content with it, and I know that the Rail Minister meets certain train operating companies weekly to go through the recovery plan. As I say, all possible options remain on the table. We have given the six-month extension to Avanti, until October. We will be making a further Statement on TPE when its contract ends towards the end of May, but it is too early to prejudge what the outcome will be.

As I say, we continue to look closely at the improvements that have been made. There have been significant improvements in the face of some challenging industrial relations, but I believe we are potentially over the worst now. I very much hope that we can bring our railway back to where I am sure all railway workers and passengers want it to be, and where our nation needs it to be.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

The Minister has told the House that there is a weekly meeting with the Rail Minister, and that is good to hear, but what else is happening behind the scenes? We would like to know a bit more about what is going on, because we all want to ensure a better rail service. Although I do not live in the north-east, I am conscious that many Members here do. What more is going on with the department? The Minister works with the Rail Minister every day, so what is actually happening?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am struggling to understand the basis of the noble Lord’s question. What is happening is that the officials are working with the train operating companies and those companies are working with their workforces. Any contractual relationship with an organisation within the Department for Transport requires greater or lesser oversight, depending on what is happening. I cannot really add much more, other than it is government being government with one of its contractors.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

The Minister did not have time to answer all my questions. I simply ask that she review them and answer them in a letter.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am happy to do so but, given that I have a tiny bit of extra time, I will knock another one on the head. On the booking window, I agree that it is very important that passengers have the confidence to book ahead. The booking window now extends to 12 June—another area where Avanti has shown real improvement. We understand that the weekend booking window is shorter, at five weeks, but that is in order to take into account engineering works. That is another example of the infrastructure side of the business impacting on the services side, and of course we want them to work closely together.

I will look at some of the noble Baroness’s other questions. I cannot see too many that I have not answered, but I will ask officials to look through Hansard and we will write accordingly.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, my apologies: maybe I am not explaining myself very well. Clearly, many Members here, and the travelling public, are frustrated by what is going on at the moment. I am trying to find out from the Minister, in addition to what is in the Statement and the weekly meetings, what work is going on between the officials and the rail companies. How do we ensure that when we get to October, we have those improvements? If there are still problems, what is happening next week, the week after and the week after that to ensure that we are not sitting here in September saying, “We’ve got another extension for six months. What we need to see is more improvements”? Currently, we still have all these problems, and it appears to the public that actually, not much is happening.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I dispute that it appears to the public that not much is happening. I believe that the travelling public will have noticed the significant improvement in the train services. On the point made by the noble Baroness, there are milestones in the recovery plan that need to be hit relating to driver training, recruitment and cancellations. All these things will be set out in great detail in the recovery plan, which will be scrutinised by the Rail Minister and his officials.

It should also be remembered that this is a private company and it will be managing its recovery plan from the operational side without the dead hand of government fiddling with it, because we should not—that is not our job. We are just there to provide the oversight and scrutiny to ensure that the recovery plan is going to plan.

[Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)]

I respectfully ask the Minister, rather than waiting until October when we might be back here having another discussion about this issue, if we could have some kind of interim update before then. Presumably, the issue of TPE will come up in May, just before the contract expires, but it would be helpful to know at some point how the improvement plan for Avanti is going, rather than waiting until October.

I agree with my noble friend Lord Kennedy that, although we heard about improvements yesterday from the Minister, when you listen to passengers—whether that is noble Lords or people outside—or look on social media, their constant concern is that lives and businesses continue to be disrupted. I am interested to know if we could have an interim update, so that we can at least know that the improvement plan is going in the right direction and that the phasing of the employment, training and so on of the 100 drivers the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, referred to is going to plan, because presumably, that would greatly assist the situation. If we could have some kind of interim update before we are back here October, with the Government telling us whether they have decided that the contract can be awarded, that would be extremely helpful.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The noble Baroness is of course in an extremely privileged position in that she can table Oral Questions or ask me Parliamentary Written Questions whenever she likes. I would be happy to answer those. I am sure that over the period, we will be back in your Lordships’ House to discuss Avanti; indeed, I believe there is a topical Oral Question on Thursday. I am not expecting that I will have anything at all different to say by then, but perhaps we can have a rehash of where we are.

Every now and again I have a little look at Avanti on social media, and things are much quieter than they used to be. What I see much more of now is the disruption caused by the strikes.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

I would like to move on to TPE. Will the Minister confirm that when we get the report—and I accept there will be another Statement about TPE before the end of May—taking the contract off it is still one of the options on the table?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

It is.

House adjourned at 8.10 pm.

Bus Industry Support

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Thursday 16th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Snape, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in his name on the Order Paper.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, on 17 February the Government announced that they will provide up to £80 million to extend the bus recovery grant until 30 June 2023. The department is evaluating the impact of this funding and working with local transport authorities and bus operators to develop sustainable solutions.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

I am grateful to the Minister for her Answer, and I welcome the money that has been allocated. However, given that 80% of people who use buses have no alternative—in fact, in Northern Ireland, the community bus service has been completely cancelled from the end of April—is it not time for the Government to devolve the subsidy and funding of local bus services to local transport authorities to get a consistent and long-term service which will provide what people need and at a lower cost, and spread over the whole country the benefits that the Minister has provided?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am not entirely sure that I follow the noble Lord’s thinking that, just by devolving it, the same amount of money will provide services at a lower cost. It is the case that local authorities get funding to support bus services, including from the fare cap, the bus recovery grant, BSOG and concessions. The simple answer here is that we have to make local transport authorities and bus operators work together more effectively.

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

My Lords, the Built Environment Committee noted in its report last year, which is yet to be debated, that without a continuation of the grant beyond March route mileage would fall by as much as 20%. Like the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, I am grateful to hear that the grant has continued. None the less, newspapers report that overall mileage has fallen by 10% up to only a couple of weeks ago. Does my noble friend the Minister consider this to be a satisfactory situation?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My noble friend is right that some routes have been changed and others have been reduced. It is the case that, if an operator wants to reduce a route, it must put in an application to the local transport authority, which has the ability then to subsidise or to tender that route. We have to establish a network which matches the revised passenger demand following the pandemic.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, the Campaign for Better Transport has done research which shows that, in the last two years, between this month and March 2021, when the Government launched their Bus Back Better campaign, there has been a 23% cut in bus services in England. Far from busing back better, the Government are actually presiding over the death of public transport in some areas. What are the Government planning to do to reverse this? Will the Minister commit today to the transformational reform of the bus service operators grant system, which is clearly not working?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I can absolutely say that the bus service operators grant will be reformed; reforms will be laid out later this year for consultation. On supporting services, we absolutely accept that we need to do what we can to provide a sustainable network which is fit for the future. That is why we have extended the funding and why we have the £2 bus fare cap. We need to evaluate that funding and the fare support to see what they have done to patronage.

[Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)]

My Lords, plans for a fantastic new zero-emission bus fleet in Stevenage and Milton Keynes, known as the ZEBRA project, came crashing down last week when private sector partner Arriva pulled out. Twice as many people use buses than trains, but buses need to be reliable to increase use, otherwise a vicious circle is created where passengers will not use them and operators will not run them. A new system giving communities a say on routes and fares is desperately needed. Will the Minister therefore produce the much-delayed bus strategy without any further delay and bring forward legislation, as my noble friend Lord Berkeley said, to devolve these powers across England?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am not entirely aware of the strategy that the noble Baroness is talking about. We have a bus strategy and we absolutely stand by that strategy. We think that the elements within it work, but what we are dealing with at the moment—as indeed are many other transport modes—is a significant reduction in patronage. We therefore need to think about how we get the best value for money with the support that we can give, while also encouraging local transport operators to play their part.

[Lord McLoughlin (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my interest as chairman of Transport for the North. Bus usage has not gone back to the level that it was pre-pandemic; I think the figures at the end of March 2022 were 2.8 billion passengers as opposed to 4.1 billion passengers the year before the pandemic. Can my noble friend tell us what progress has been made with the announcement of the capping of bus fares nationally? Has that had an impact on usage? What are the longer-term plans for that cap?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My noble friend is absolutely right that the £2 bus fare cap is an important intervention for us to properly understand the relationship between bus fares and patronage. There are 140 operators over 4,700 routes that have taken up this bus fare cap and the Government are investing £135 million in it. We are evaluating it as we go along, and we will of course make public those findings as soon as we can.

[Baroness Scott of Needham Market (LD)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness will be aware that large parts of rural England no longer have a bus service and are dependent on community transport systems. In some areas, such as mine in Mid Suffolk, they have been set up in such a way that concessionary fares cannot be used on those services, nor do they qualify for the £2 bus fare cap. Can the Minister look at whether some sort of regulatory change might be in order so as to make sure that people who live in such areas are not disadvantaged?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The noble Baroness has written to me about this and I have responded. I cannot quite understand what might be going on in her area. It is fairly simple: if it is a Section 22 community transport service that is open to other people, concessions are allowed and the £2 bus fare applies. If it is a closed service under Section 19 that is not open to everybody then, rightly so, the national provisions do not apply. If she has any further information, I would be very happy to look into it.

[Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, raised the question of the bus industry. This is an opportunity for us to congratulate the bus manufacturers of this country—whether Alexander Dennis in Scotland, Wrightbus in Northern Ireland or Optare in Yorkshire—which are producing world-leading buses and using the latest technology in hydrogen power as well as battery electrics to lead the world on behalf of this country. Can we congratulate them?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

We can congratulate them; they do a fantastic job. Noble Lords will have seen that the Government announced £25 million of funding for zero-emission buses only recently—I believe that all the £25 million in funding went to Wrightbus in Northern Ireland, which has seen astonishing growth in jobs and skills and should be congratulated.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, can my noble friend explain what the future of concessionary bus fares will be? They are particularly important in rural areas.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

We have seen a decline in the number of people using concessionary fares since the pandemic; certainly, those are the sorts of people who we want to get back on to buses. It is so important. We are reviewing a number of elements of the concessionary fare structure and, of particular importance to local transport authorities, we are looking at and will be consulting on the reimbursement guidance and calculator during the course of 2023 to ensure that local transport authorities are getting the money back from the system that they need to fully cover concessionary fares.

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

My Lords, seeing as we are considering public money for buses, will the Government consider the case in urban areas for switching to lightweight trams, which last for 20 years rather than 12 and, because they have steel wheels, do not emit toxic particulates from rubber? Most importantly, they run on biomethane, and the Government have a commitment to reduce by 30% the methane produced in this country by 2030.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The Government are a great supporter of trams. Indeed, much of the money that we gave to local metro mayors—about £5.7 billion, I think, in the CRSTS—is going to extending tram systems in their areas. Of course, for other local authorities, it is up to them to bring forward tram proposals, should they have them.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords—

Airports Slot Allocation (Alleviation of Usage Requirements) Regulations 2023

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Monday 13th March 2023 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 31 January be approved.

Considered in Grand Committee on 6 March.

Motion agreed.

Northern Ireland and Great Britain: Regional Connectivity

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Monday 13th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lexden (Con)]

My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Rogan and with his permission, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in his name on the Order Paper.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, connectivity between Northern Ireland and Great Britain is currently very strong and has largely recovered to 2019 levels. This includes several competing services between Belfast and London, the public service obligation from Derry/Londonderry to London, and routes from Northern Ireland to several cities throughout Great Britain.

[Lord Lexden (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my interest as a fervent supporter of the union of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Does not a strong union require good, efficient and reliable air services between Northern Ireland and the rest of our country, not least in order to assist in the great work being done by the Northern Ireland tourist board in promoting the cultural and environmental glories of the Province, which are not as well-known and widely appreciated as they should be? I know my noble friend understands the anxiety created in Northern Ireland and elsewhere by the sudden collapse of Flybe at the end of January. Will she and the Government do everything possible to help regional airlines increase flights and keep fares down as far as possible for all those travelling to and from this most important part of our country?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I completely agree with my noble friend. I have been to Northern Ireland as a tourist, and it is truly fabulous. On the recent collapse of Flybe, in November 2022 Flybe was transporting only 5.9% of passengers, so I am delighted to say that other airlines have now stepped up and by the end of April we expect that all Flybe routes will be picked up by other carriers.

[Baroness O’Loan (CB)]

Is the Minister aware that Aer Lingus has pulled out of the Belfast-London route and that there are regular cancellations by British Airways, particularly of the early flights on Monday morning? The reduction in the number of flights from Belfast to London and back is a significant problem.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I will have to take that back to the department because I am not aware of a significant reduction in the number of flights; indeed, I expect them to be back to where they were by the end of April. I looked at the prices a couple of weeks ago, and it was possible to book an easyJet flight on a Monday morning for £22, which I feel is very reasonable. I know that BA has had a few cancellations recently, but I met with it this morning and we discussed how to reduce those as we head into the summer.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

As someone who uses that air connection weekly, I remind the Minister that there was a £5.7 million investment in connectivity between Northern Ireland and Great Britain during the Covid lockdown in May 2020 and since then, Flybe and the Belfast-London, London-Belfast Aer Lingus flights have ceased to operate. What discussions will she have with other airlines on filling the slots, and with Aer Lingus about reinstating its flights between Belfast and London and London and Belfast using Emerald Airlines, which undertakes carrier flights for it to other cities in Britain?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Aer Lingus flights had to cease because of the wet-leasing arrangements it was using, which it carried on for much longer than the Government would normally allow. However, I am delighted to say that Aer Lingus’s partner in IAG, British Airways, picked up the services so there is no loss in connectivity. Of course, we will warmly welcome Aer Lingus back to that route if it is able to sort out the UK-registered aircraft it would need to operate the route.

[Lord Storey (LD)]

My Lords, as the Minister said, Flybe failed in 2020 and 2023, which highlights the need to maintain consumer confidence. To do that, customers must be reassured that they have the right to the highest levels of financial protection and full refunds when things go wrong. Last year, the Department for Transport consulted on proposals to reduce consumer rights for domestic flights. Do the Government intend to pursue these plans? In view of the Windsor Framework, will flights between Great Britain and Northern Ireland remain subject to EU rules on compensation?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The Government did indeed consult on a wide range of issues relating to consumers and aviation. We are still considering the response to that consultation and we will publish it in due course.

[Lord Browne of Belmont (DUP)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that speeding up Heathrow expansion would provide more opportunities for Northern Ireland companies and open further links to global business, and that new links and flights would encourage competition and provide Northern Ireland with better and cheaper connections to the rest of the UK and the world?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Any expansion at Heathrow is of course a matter for the airport itself; it is a private company and will be making the decision as to whether to expand. However, there are many London airports. I was at Luton only last week, where a brand new train service operates directly into the airport, which means that Luton will be 30 minutes away from central London. There is a lot of opportunity around London and, of course, we would like regional airlines to make the most of it.

[Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)]

My Lords, I am very pleased to see the Minister in her place today, and after the HS2 Question on Friday, I expect the noble Lord, Lord Davies, is too. The collapse of Flybe in January was devastating news for staff as well as the wider supply chain and those employed in industries reliant on its transport links. What steps are the Government taking to encourage further investment in Northern Ireland? Are they working with other operators to unlock new opportunities? What further work has been done to reduce the inequalities that domestic airlines face when paying double air passenger duty?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

As the noble Baroness will be aware, the Government announced a reduction in domestic air passenger duty. That comes into force from April 2023—next month—and will be a 50% cut in domestic air passenger duty. As I explained, we work with many of the regional airlines to consider regional connectivity. We will be looking at what we can do around slots but, as I said, services to Northern Ireland in particular are pretty much back to where they were in 2019.

[Lord McLoughlin (Con)]

My Lords, in drawing attention to my entry in the register of Members’ interests, may I ask my noble friend, when she looks at the case for regional connectivity—be it with Northern Ireland or Scotland—to ensure that the Government have a very strong bias towards protecting those vital slots in some of our larger airports?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My noble friend will be well aware that the Government have limited levers when it comes to slots. However, there are some things that we can do. Slots are allocated by an independent slots co-ordinator. We set out in Flightpath to the Future that we would consult on some elements of slots reform. We still intend to that and, in doing so, we will consider very carefully regional connectivity and how we can ensure that slots are available.

[Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate (Con)]

My Lords, I want to take my noble friend back to the question of slots. There is a lot of concern that when an airline fails the slots are often sold off at an enormous price, which excludes other, smaller airlines from taking up the routes that that airline has had to leave behind. Will she confirm that the Government are interested in that and will do everything they can to deter that practice?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am not able to confirm that we will do everything we can to deter that practice because, of course, historic rights to slots are an asset and when an airline fails, those slots can be transferred for a sum to another party and that money can be used to pay creditors. What I can commit to my noble friend is that, for example, the Flybe slots are part of a competition remedy and cover specific routes, which means that any operator can apply to the slots co-ordinator to take up those slots for those specific routes.

[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I do not seem to be able to get an answer from any other Minister to my question regarding the Belfast to London and Belfast to EU route, so perhaps the noble Baroness can answer it. Can she explain why, given that you can get duty free from Dublin to London, you cannot get it from Belfast to London? Indeed, nor can you get it from Belfast to the EU, because the EU does not allow it. Will she come back to me with a real answer on this—even if it is one the Government do not want to admit to?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am not sure I am going to be able to help the noble Baroness any more than other Ministers have, as it is beyond my departmental brief. However, I will pass her concerns on to the Treasury.

[Lord Polak (Con)]

My Lords, while this Question is on the collapse of Flybe, I ask the Minister to pass on congratulations to the Prime Minister and the Chancellor on HMG finding a buyer, with no risk whatever to the taxpayer, for Silicon Valley Bank, which collapsed.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am sure all noble Lords will agree that the Government acted incredibly swiftly in a very difficult situation, and we were all very pleased with the outcome.

Airports Slot Allocation (Alleviation of Usage Requirements) Regulations 2023

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Monday 6th March 2023 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Airports Slot Allocation (Alleviation of Usage Requirements) Regulations 2023.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, these draft regulations were laid before Parliament on 31 January and will be made under powers conferred by the Air Traffic Management and Unmanned Aircraft Act 2021, also known as ATMUA. Following the UK’s departure from the European Union, this legislation created a more flexible set of powers for Ministers to implement alleviation measures for airport slots related to the impacts of Covid-19, subject to a vote in both Houses. This allows the UK to adapt its approach to best support the recovery of the aviation sector.

Ordinarily, airlines must operate their slots 80% of the time to retain the right to those same slots the following year. This is known as the 80:20 or “Use it or lose it” rule. This encourages efficient use of scarce airport capacity. We have been amending the airport slots requirements since the summer of 2020; we have seen a promising recovery in passenger demand during 2022 and in the early part of 2023, but there remains some continued uncertainty in the industry and demand remains below the levels seen before the pandemic. The Government have therefore designed a package of measures for the summer 2023 season that sees a return to the normal 80:20 rule on slots usage. This will encourage more efficient use of slots, combined with flexibility to help manage that remaining uncertainty.

When the pandemic originally struck, the 80:20 rule was fully waived. This avoided environmentally damaging and financially costly ghost flights. We then made fairly generous alleviations for the four subsequent seasons, while travel restrictions remained. Last summer, in 2022, we changed the usage ratio to 70:30 because we felt there was a more positive outlook in demand and wanted to ensure that the slots were used as effectively as possible.

However, as noble Lords will recall, there was some disruption during the summer season last year and we made an additional alleviation, a one-off slots amnesty, which helped to calm the disruption and meant that the aviation sector was flying the schedule that it said it would. That very much helped to reduce last-minute cancellations, which ended up being around the 2019 levels.

For summer 2023, the season that starts on 26 March and runs to 28 October, we are planning to return to the pre-pandemic 80:20 allocation—there has been no change in that. We will continue to include the enhanced justified non-use provisions, which we introduced for winter 2022, for those areas where there is still considerably reduced demand. That might be because of pre-departure testing, flight bans, quarantine or self-isolation requirements, all of which put a significant dampener on demand. It is in those circumstances that the justified non-use provisions come into play. Following consultation with the industry—that is, airlines and airports—we have decided to include an alleviation of a 5% slot hand-back, but this must happen before the start of the season so that there is no uncertainty going into it about whether a route will be operated on a day or at any particular time.

It is worth noting that the instrument applies to England, Scotland and Wales. This is because aerodromes are a devolved matter in relation to Northern Ireland. In any event, there are no slot co-ordinated airports in Northern Ireland.

I have had many conversations with the aviation sector and we are very focused on ensuring that summer 2023 is a success. I believe that the provisions within this statutory instrument will contribute greatly to that. However, we also recognise that the sector has nearly recovered and the alleviations we are proposing are therefore limited in nature. I beg to move.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for introducing this. She will be appreciative that I am not my noble friend Lord Tunnicliffe. She looked slightly puzzled earlier that he was not here. I can only say that he is on important duties elsewhere. I have gone through the material and, as my colleagues in the Commons were keen to say, there is not a big policy difference between us; we are quite happy with the measures that the Minister has set out. I will just make a few points.

Obviously, it is vital for our economy that the aviation sector recovers fully to its pre-Covid levels. My understanding is that we are likely to come back to this issue again in the autumn when the summer season will have been reviewed and we will have to decide whether we need to offer some further form of alleviation.

I have looked a little at the data on the strength and pace of the recovery, and my understanding is that aviation in 2022 was at 83% of 2019 levels. It would be good if the Minister could provide us with a bit more of an update on monitoring since those stats were produced and offer us a bit more on how the sector is recovering generally. I live in Brighton, not a great distance from Gatwick, which is a very important part of our economy. I am sure the Minister will be familiar with that from her time spent—usefully or otherwise—knocking on doors in the Brighton Pavilion constituency. I am sure that she will have come across a few people from the aviation sector during that time.

What financial assistance is currently being made available to airlines to support their recovery, and what more can the Government do to underline that? Although I guess the information is less important for Heathrow and Gatwick, is targeted support being offered to regional airports? I note the closure of Doncaster Airport, which is very unfortunate. The strength of our industry is very reliant on its regional recovery as well. With that, I restate my support in general terms for the policy objectives adopted and ask the Minister whether she could cover those points—in particular, whether we are going to be here again in six months’ time.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, for standing in for the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe. I bumped into him earlier; all I will say is that he looked very dapper, so I am sure he is going somewhere important.

I am very happy to go through the questions raised by the noble Lord. Will we be back here in autumn? I do not know; quite possibly. You have the summer season and the winter season. The winter season will start towards the end of October, and it will very much depend on the outcome of the consultation. We tend to try to do the consultation with industry as late as possible before the next season starts, but we need certainty, so we need to do it before the season starts. We will consult with industry again. It will depend on how the summer has gone and how things are looking from a Covid perspective for the winter but, as I think I said the last time I was standing here, at the moment, alleviations are moving in one direction, and I do not particularly want to continue them forever. It is right that we get back to the normal slots regime at some stage because it is important for the efficient use of capacity. We will monitor that carefully and speak to the industry in due course.