Covid-19: Public Transport

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Tuesday 2nd June 2020 Lords Chamber

The Question was considered in a Virtual Proceeding via video call.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, public transport faces significant challenges: lower passenger demand, reduced capacity as a result of social distancing and higher than usual staff absence levels. We are working very closely with transport operators as they increase their services and are providing financial support where necessary.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

I welcome the Government’s intervention but, to be commercially successful, buses and trains have to be very full, yet the social distancing measures require them to be only 15% full. Working and travel patterns have changed as a result of the virus, so do the Government accept that in future they need to work more closely with local authorities and to reform core funding for buses to encourage the use of zero-emissions vehicles and ensure that fares are affordable?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

The noble Baroness is quite right. We are working very closely with local authorities to meet the needs of local communities, particularly in relation to buses, on which, as she recognises, capacity has been significantly reduced. We have an opportunity in that there will be a national bus strategy, in which we will look at how to put low- emissions vehicles on our streets.

[Lord Clark of Windermere (Lab)]

My Lords, over the weekend, the roads in beauty spots and especially in national parks were blocked by parked cars, so much so that emergency services here in the Lake District National Park were not able to get through. However, you cannot get either into or around the national park by public transport. Will HMG therefore think very seriously indeed about any further relaxation of the lockdown, such as opening hotels or boarding houses, until we resolve the public transport problem?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

The noble Lord is right that there is a significant increase in traffic at the moment, and in certain circumstances that has led to localised congestion from parking. Of course, local authorities and the local police have the power to move cars on to make sure that emergency vehicles are not prevented from getting to their destination.

[Lord Taylor of Warwick (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, transportation connects the nation. Organisations such as the AA have predicted that traffic levels will remain lower due to Covid-19. What implications will that have for the Government’s £28.8 billion road-building programme, which is based on 1% annual growth in traffic demand?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

The long-term impact of the current pandemic on road traffic is yet to be established, but we are, of course, keeping it under review. The noble Lord mentioned that vehicle excise duty goes into the national roads fund and that is used to both enhance and maintain our strategic road network as well as many other major roads. So there could be an implication for this particular fund; we are keeping an eye on it.

[Viscount Trenchard (Con)]

My Lords, it seems obvious that social distancing, even if reduced to 1 metre, is impossible to observe while using public transport. Many countries, including France, Spain and Germany, have made the wearing of masks compulsory on public transport. Such a rule substantially removes the risk of direct transfer of the virus from person to person. Will my noble friend consider introducing a similar requirement in the UK?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

The current guidance says that face coverings are advised on public transport and elsewhere, particularly in cases where social distancing is not possible. We are keeping this situation under review with regard to its extension and how we communicate that to our passengers.

[Lord Bradshaw (LD)]

Most public transport uses air conditioning, which recirculates viruses, bacteria and other nasty things in the air. Will the Government consider a proper scientific examination of this problem to see whether air-conditioning systems can be modified, as I believe they can, to eliminate this transmission of disease?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I would like to put the concern of the noble Lord to rest in that air-conditioning systems exist in all sorts of circumstances; the Government are indeed looking to ensure that viruses are not significantly recirculated throughout any particular environment.

[Lord Bowness (Con)]

Will my noble friend acknowledge that passenger scheduled and charter flights are as much a form of public transport as anything else, and that thousands of jobs in the airlines, airports, aerospace industries and their suppliers, and the communities around them, depend on those flights resuming to a reasonable level? Can the Minister indicate what steps the Government are taking, and what conversations they are having, to co-operate with other Governments and co-ordinate with other countries, particularly in Europe, to ensure that airports and airlines operate to a common standard, allowing flights to resume to as near normal as possible, as quickly as possible?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

My noble friend will probably agree with me that aviation is a core part of our transport system and a great provider of jobs in this country. It is going through an unprecedented time at the moment in that, of course, most flights are not currently taking place. We are working very closely with the aviation industry—the UK-based aviation providers, the regulators in the EU and beyond—to establish international standards for getting our planes back into the sky while making sure that, when passengers can fly, they are safe.

[Baroness Meacher (CB)]

My Lords, I want to follow the question posed by the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, and the Minister’s answer. Given that the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has studied best practice across the world in controlling Covid-19 and includes in its four core recommendations the use of cloth masks when around other people, will the Minister pursue the urgent need to mandate the wearing of cloth masks on public transport, not only to save lives but to encourage far more people to use public transport and get to work?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I agree that the wearing of face coverings will be a very important element in restoring confidence in our public transport, not only for the passengers and the workforce but, in the longer term, for the industry. It is really important that people should wear face coverings on our public transport; that is the message that we are putting out there at the moment. Of course, any changes such as mandating the use of face coverings is an issue for the Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies, which is considering this.

[Lord Rosser (Lab)]

Given that, at least in the short to medium term, the economics of public transport are likely to be altered by lifestyle changes resulting from Covid-19, such as more people working from home and less international travel, will the Government provide financial support to public transport operators while they adjust to lifestyle changes of this kind once the pandemic is finally brought under control?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

The Government are already providing financial support to a range of transport operators to make sure that they can operate as good a service as possible in the current environment. This will include funding for buses and light rail—and of course we have the Emergency Measures Agreement for all our heavy rail services. The situation is being kept under review. As demand changes over time and as the country comes out of lockdown, clearly, demand for public transport will go up, but it is not clear exactly when it will become commercially viable to operate public transport without government support.

[Lord Oates (LD)]

My Lords, buried in the detail of the government bailout for Transport for London is a requirement to end free travel for under-18s. Will the Government urgently reconsider this outrageous condition, which deliberately targets young people by making them pay the price for the Covid crisis, and which will disproportionately impact the poorest families in London?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

That requirement is not buried in the detail as the noble Lord has said—it is on the face of the funding agreement reached between the Government and TfL. Both parties agreed to all the items within that document. We asked TfL to come up with operational plans such that we can temporarily remove free travel for under-18s. No other part of the rest of the country has free travel for under-18s; given that this £1.6 billion is being funded from general taxation, it strikes me that it is not fair for the rest of the country to pay for free travel for the under-18s at this time. Given the need to get people off public transport, on to their bikes and walking, it also strikes me that younger people can be at the forefront of that change.

[The Lord Speaker]

My Lords, I regret to say that the time allowed for this Question has now elapsed.

Covid-19: Transport

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Thursday 14th May 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

I echo the thanks to all those key workers in transport industries who have kept vital supplies and vital workers moving during the last two months. As always, our economy sits on the shoulders of the transport sector. Like the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, I want especially to mention bus drivers and others who died, who were particularly exposed to the virus in their work.

I start by reminding everyone that last Sunday’s broadcast by the Prime Minister was essentially for England only. New rules and advice were announced, but they were for England. The situation is different in Wales and Scotland, so it is now a complex picture. That matters, of course, because transport crosses borders.

I very much welcome the investment announced in cycling and walking, specifically the emergency and temporary measures. While I am delighted to see the speed of response, I seek assurances from the Minister that this first tranche of money will be followed by long-term investment in improving the infrastructure for active travel. Indeed, the Department for Transport itself has estimated that it needs £5 billion to nearly double the number of trips using cycling from 2% to 4%. This announcement was of course for £2 billion. Can the Minister give us some detail on how the Government will work with local authorities to ensure that the money is indeed spent well and quickly?

I was also pleased to see the announcement about trials of electric scooters on public roads. Can the Minister tell me a little more about this? Will it involve only scooters for hire or include privately owned scooters?

For me, the peace and quiet in recent weeks, due to the lack of transport noise, has been wonderful. So too has been the improvement in air quality. The reduction in harmful emissions has allowed us to glimpse a view of how to tackle climate change. However, on Sunday, the Prime Minister fired the starting gun on the return to old habits when he advised people to get back in their cars and avoid public transport. I accept that there is an impossible conundrum with public transport. It is not possible to socially distance on most buses and trains; it is therefore essential that every other possible safety measure is taken seriously.

I was disappointed that the guidance issued by the Department for Transport to public transport operators was essentially a series of suggestions. There are many bus operators across the country, many of them small operators with limited capacity. Early in this crisis, the Government recognised the need to take centralised control of train services. I am not suggesting for a moment that they should nationalise bus services, but I am surprised that they have apparently not established a national forum for sharing good practice and providing guidance to bus operators. Will the Minister consider that?

On issues such as screens, frequent cleaning, going cash free and the availability of hand sanitiser, the guidance was very laissez-faire. It was merely a series of suggestions, which I fear can—and in some cases, will—be ignored. As the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, pointed out, the advice to passengers on face masks states:

“There are some circumstances when wearing a face covering may be marginally beneficial”.


It goes on to emphasise that it is “optional” and “not required by law”. The lesson of the past few weeks is that although we, the public, like to know why we are being told to do something, we also like clear instructions. That instruction on face covering would have been much clearer if it had simply said, “You are advised to cover your face in crowded places.”

I look forward to the Minister’s response.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, I join the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, and the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, in paying tribute to everybody in the transport sector who has worked so tirelessly over the recent weeks and months to make sure that those who must travel are able to do so. They have done a superb job in keeping things going. It is a great tribute to their hard work that we are in the position we are in today. I also offer my sincere condolences to the families and friends of all those, particularly in the transport sector, who have lost their lives.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, made a number of points. He started by not being wholly supportive of the transport operator guidance, in that it was not directive and is not practical. This is not the feedback that I have had from the transport operators—and I speak to them a lot. They are perfectly capable of taking this guidance and translating and transposing it into the appropriate measures that they need to take according to the needs of their workers and passengers. It is not the case that a bus operator is the same as a tram operator or a PHV operator. There is a huge variety of transport operators, which is why the guidance is set out as it is. I have not had feedback that transport operators feel that they are missing direction. Certainly, I have had feedback that they are working incredibly well together in developing guidance, then adjusting it for their own needs and for their own staff.

I will accept that, in certain circumstances, social distancing on public transport will be a challenge, and that is recognised in the guidance. For example, the passenger guidance refers to 2-metre social distancing “where possible”, and states that this is probably sometimes not possible—at busier times, on busier routes and at certain points in the journey. That guidance goes on to talk about other mitigations that can be put in place to help the passenger—for example, avoiding physical contact with other passengers and not standing or sitting face to face. Spending minimal time with other passengers, such as passing in the corridor, is not thought to be too much of a risk. The guidance says that face coverings are advised in enclosed spaces, which is what the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, wanted it to say. We have set out exactly what should happen and what passengers’ expectations of social distancing should be.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, talked about operationalising social distancing and explained many of the things that operators are considering. Each operator is preparing its own plan for its particular transport type and circumstances, operationalising social distancing, and other elements within the guidance, and putting it in the plan. The Department for Transport is reviewing many of those plans, to make sure that we too are content that the right measures are put in place.

Crowd management will be one of the important things. The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked what would happen if a certain number of people got on a platform. This has, of course, been thought through. Every Transport for London station has an operational plan to make sure that certain things will happen and that passengers are managed and advised in the right way so that we do not get too much bunching. The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked whether we had been able to maintain social distance this week. I am delighted to report that there have been very few problems, and I think that all those that did occur were reported on the news. When I spoke to Transport for London last night, the picture it was able to give me of its operations was pretty positive. It had not seen persistent levels of lack of social distancing. For the time being—fingers crossed —everything is going to plan.

The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, mentioned the devolved nature of the country. The consequence of devolution is that it is up to other countries to have their own guidance, should they wish to do so. However, the transport operators are doing a very good job at communicating that to passengers. Our guidance for people travelling between the devolved nations is: just check with the transport operator. There will be posters everywhere; it will be impossible to miss them.

Cycling and walking also featured in the noble Baroness’s remarks. I am delighted about the £250 million that is coming out of the traps in order that we can get local authorities to make changes quickly. She asked whether we were involved with the local authorities in that. Yes, we are. We have published road space allocation guidance which helps them to understand the sort of things they need to consider when introducing, for example, wider pavements for pedestrians or temporary cycle lanes to encourage more people to get on their bikes.

I cannot offer further details on e-scooters at the moment, as I believe they are still being finalised. If the noble Baroness could be a tiny bit patient, I think an announcement will come very shortly. This is a good opportunity for us to trial this new form of transport, to see if it works for cities and other places in our country.

Finally, the noble Baroness mentioned the bus operators and whether there should be a national forum. I speak to the bus operators very regularly. They fall into two associations: the CPT and ALBUM, which covers the smaller players. Those two associations are doing great work in encouraging the bus operators to share best practice and to help them develop risk assessments for their particular circumstances. I do not think there is a need for a national forum because that is all happening.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Palmer of Childs Hill) (LD)]

We now come to the 30 minutes allocated for Back-Bench questions. I would ask that both questions and answers are kept brief so that I can call the maximum number of speakers. In each case, the Minister will answer.

[Lord Balfe (Con)]

My Lords, I begin by declaring an interest in that my son owns a small chain of bicycle shops. I want to talk about Cambridge, where I live, and the problems that this directive will have there. If you work in London you cannot cycle or walk from Cambridge, but nevertheless it is a commuter town. It takes 50 minutes to travel to London by train, two hours by car, and if you do go by car, where on earth can you park? The problem will revolve around trains.

What thought has been given to the fact that if trains can take only 10% to 15% of their current load, and bearing in mind that during the rush hour trains from Cambridge are standing room only, how will the number of people on trains be controlled? Will there be rationing? How can it be done, because there will not be enough trains to take even a quarter of the people to work? Following the example of France and Belgium, I would particularly like to press the Minister to ask for the wearing of masks to be obligatory on public transport. Those countries have done it. Also, can the social distance be reduced from two metres to one metre?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I thank my noble friend for his thoughts on this issue. He has clearly described the challenge that we face in matching demand with the supply of public transport, in this case the trains. Obviously, the Government are encouraging everyone who can work from home to do so, and certainly from the conversations I have had so far regarding London a large number of companies are still encouraging their people to work from home. The second thing we are asking companies in London, and indeed beyond, to do is to spread the load a bit and flatten the peak as much as they can. We are asking companies to put in place staggered start times to ensure that not everyone arrives on the nine o’clock train. Rail services are gradually being increased, but we want to ensure that the safety of their front-line staff remains absolutely critical. The operational plans for services and for the infrastructure around rail travel are being put in place, and the chairman of Network Rail, Sir Peter Hendy, has been tasked by the Secretary of State for Transport to review all those operational plans to make sure that rail services are as good as we can get them, given the capacity constraints.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, my question is about masks, a subject I raised some 10 weeks ago in the Moses Room. Could not officials learn a lesson from the much-reported bus incident in Shenzhen in Hunan province in China, where nine passengers were infected by a single carrier? The virus was transmitted a distance far in excess of the two metres that we are following. It travelled up to four metres from the single original infected source. More significantly, those passengers who were wearing masks were not infected, so why not make the wearing of them mandatory on public transport, as has just been suggested? That is the case in Thailand, which has one of the lowest death rates from the virus in the world, as well as in nearly 50 other countries worldwide? Are they all wrong?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

The noble Lord has indeed raised this point before. I looked at that study. It is interesting, but obviously I am not a scientific expert. Therefore, I cannot comment on it in detail. We have asked our group of experts to look at what we should do about face coverings. They have said that we should advise people to wear face coverings in enclosed spaces and where they are likely to bump up against the two metres. There will have to be a change in culture among people travelling on our public transport. The Government will certainly support that change in culture through a very extensive communications campaign. As the amount of people on public transport builds up, we expect more people to wear face coverings because it is the right thing to do to protect others.

[Lord Bradshaw (LD)]

Anybody with any experience of public transport knows that one of the best things that can be done is to stagger working hours. The early spring is the best time of the year to do it since it is light for so long. What is being done about public bodies and public employers, which should be being directed by the Government to spread working hours? Will the Minister consider doing the same thing for private employers?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

The noble Lord is right that staggering working hours is one of the ways that we can reduce demand on public transport. I have a call tomorrow with the main employer groups in London to discuss exactly how they are liaising with their membership on staggering working hours. We are also in touch with all the large urban centres, such as Liverpool, Manchester and Leeds, to get their large employers to do so. Talking about public sector employees, I believe the number of people going into the office at the Department for Transport at the moment is about five.

[Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB)]

The Rail Delivery Group has stated that disabled passengers who need assistance during their journey can still book ahead, but they may be asked extra questions to help staff plan how to help them safely. What will those additional questions be? How will those with invisible impairments be supported? By their very nature, it will not be possible to identify that such people have additional needs.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

This is an incredibly important topic. The Rail Delivery Group—the organisation made up of the train operating companies—is finalising staff guidance, which includes suggested example questions around where a customer may have a preference in the nature of the assistance provided. It has not been finalised. There will be public communications on this in due course, so the RDG will be able to provide further information. The rail industry is currently undertaking a comprehensive review of the passenger journey to understand better the needs of those passengers who have invisible impairments because, as the noble Baroness quite rightly says, sometimes those passengers have other needs.

[Lord Lea of Crondall (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, what strikes me about this is that the virus is the subject of a huge amount of numerical modelling and forecasting. I am amazed at the lack of numerical modelling in passenger transport of intermodal splits on different scenarios. In the medium term—in the autumn or something like that—we will need to sustain public confidence with more information, options and explanations of the dilemmas in the trade-offs of social distancing, in this case, with the rate of growth or decline of GDP et cetera. It is very important to have a higher level of public engagement and understanding.

Initially, will the Government institute more transparency on where the pinch points will be later in the year—information on which I am sure exists in the files of the Department for Transport—so that we can have an adult conversation, as called for by one of the Minister’s colleagues the other day? The modal split in town, country, big cities and so on will be different for rail, bus, car et cetera, but we need to make sure that we do not run into gridlock in some centres by digging up the road to put in a wider pavement, such as Piccadilly Circus et cetera being dug up at the same time as Oxford Circus. Is that not a danger? I do not know which forum might be useful, but I know that there are a lot of very well-informed and interested parties. Would this be something to look into so that we can have some numerical forecasts to scrutinise, with no skin off the Government’s nose? Public engagement will heighten public understanding.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

The noble Lord raises interesting issues to do with data and modelling. I reassure him that the Department for Transport has a vast amount of data and does a huge amount of modelling. However, the sort of thing that he is talking about—a very centralised, top-down approach to solving our local transport needs—is not what we are proposing at the moment. In fact, we think the right way to go is to talk to the metropolitan mayors and local authority groups and get them to refresh their local transport plans, because they are the ones who know what is going to happen in their local communities. They can really put into practice what will need to be done to support the future forecasts for the different splits on the different modes of transport.

I agree with the noble Lord that there is much to be done—much data and much modelling—and that there are things we can crack on with, but this is best done locally. The Department for Transport is very happy to help. We review these plans and have asked these groups to refresh their local plans in light of the changed circumstances.

[Baroness Pidding (Con)]

My Lords, while we are encouraging the public to avoid using public transport where possible, there is likely to be an increase in the take-up of bicycle hire in cities. Is consideration being given to providing hand-sanitising facilities at all bicycle docking stations?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I thank my noble friend for raising this, as it is something I think we have forgotten. It goes back to the oldest of chestnuts on this issue. When talking about coronavirus, we were told from the beginning to wash our hands and not touch our faces. That advice is still completely true and should be followed. The Government’s new guidance reiterates this and tries to remind people about hand hygiene. We recommend that people wash and sanitise their hands regularly, both before and after journeys, whether on an e-bike or any other form of transport. Operators, including those which look after bicycle docking stations, should ensure that measures are in place to protect their users. We encourage the operators to implement the guidance in the way that best fits their working practices.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, first, I understand that the Transport Secretary was quoted as having said that it is a civic duty to avoid public transport. Could the Minister confirm that that is the Government’s policy?

Secondly, going back to the question of face masks, even if they are only 50% effective, most of us would be much happier to have a 50% chance of not catching something than to be more liable to catching it. The Government’s argument on face masks is weak and unconvincing. Those of us who might be forced to take taxis would be much relieved if the taxis themselves were sanitised between passenger journeys. I do not want to get into a taxi that has been occupied by somebody going to hospital because they think they have been infected.

Lastly, what do we do at St Pancras when a passenger from Belgium arrives on a Eurostar train? How do we separate that passenger from somebody who has come from Paris?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

On the first issue the noble Lord raised, on public transport, let us be absolutely clear what we are talking about here. Those who cannot work from home and have to travel to work, or those who are making an essential journey, who cannot travel on a bike, by foot or in a car should use public transport. If you can possibly avoid using public transport—as a transport Minister, I cannot believe I am having to say this—you should. Therefore, if you are tempted to use public transport but could actually get on your bike, I suppose it is your civic duty to get on your bike. What we are saying about those who should use public transport and those who should not is absolutely clear.

The noble Lord also talked about getting into a taxi or private hire vehicle, which the transport operators’ guidance also covers. It includes a section on cleaning and hygiene and making sure that your place of work, namely your taxi, is clean and protects subsequent passengers. Therefore, that is what taxi and PHV drivers should be doing.

Finally, on borders—I am aware that I did not answer the noble Lord, Lord Rosser on this issue—we will be doing three main things. International arrivals will have to supply contact and accommodation information, and there will be lots of advice on arrival to support that. They will be advised to download the contact-tracing app and told to self-isolate for 14 days. Noble Lords probably have several other questions on the borders issue but the details have yet to be fully finalised. We do not know exactly how the scheme will work or what the exemptions will be, so I will have to beg noble Lords patience on this one. No doubt we will come back to it in due course.

[Lord Taylor of Goss Moor (LD)]

Long before Covid hit this country, literally millions of families had booked holidays abroad for this summer, which is now fast-approaching. The Secretary of State and other Ministers have made it clear that they do not believe people should be travelling abroad; the new border requirements will effectively make such a holiday impossible for most people anyway. However, there is no clear statement from the FCO or the Government requiring people not to go abroad, so in many cases they are not able to get their money back. They cannot claim on insurance as it is not a required cancellation; the airlines are flying the flights, so they cannot get their flight money back; and tour companies are in many cases, at best, offering a change of date and refusing refunds.

All that could be sorted out by a clear statement from the Government. In many cases, with earnings down and some unable to earn at all, these families now desperately need that money. The Government cannot expect people to be happy about this; they are being told that they cannot have their holidays, but the Government are not taking the action that would allow them their money back.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

The reality at this time is that the Foreign Office is advising against travel overseas, but it does not have a crystal ball. Therefore, it would be impossible to say that up to a certain date in the future—quite far into the future, given that we are only in May—there will be no travel at all. We simply cannot say that.

I too am in this boat. I have a holiday booked. Will I go on it or not? I do not know. This is just one of the things about coronavirus that we have to deal with. I am really hoping that I can still go but, if the Foreign Office advice by then is still, “You must not travel”, there will be ways that people can get their money back. We must not get over-excited about this at this moment. As time progresses, guidance about overseas travel may change. We just have to be alert and try to be patient. I know that it is incredibly difficult. For some people, their holidays may happen; for others they may not, and we can then look at how they get their money back.

[Lord Low of Dalston (CB)]

My Lords, disabled people are fortunate to enjoy a great deal of assistance from the staff of transport undertakings, which is very much appreciated. Will the Government give guidance on how this can be maintained compatibly with advice on social distancing?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

The noble Lord raises a very important point. The published guidance specifically refers to making sure that public transport remains accessible. It refers to those with protected characteristics, including, of course, disabled passengers. On specific translation of the guidance on social distancing requirements for disabled passengers, I too am interested to see how that has developed, but I have not looked into it in great detail. So, I will write to the noble Lord to give him examples of how transport operators are putting this guidance into practice.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

Something that makes our roads much less safe and will deter people from walking and cycling is extreme speeding, which has been happening increasingly during lockdown. The police in London have enforced more than 5,000 instances of speeding, and some of those speeds—in areas with 20 or 30 mph limits—are incredible. This will deter people. Will the Minister undertake to speak to the traffic police and find out if there is anything the Government can do to ensure stronger enforcement of this offence?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

The noble Baroness is right, in that there have been some really unpleasant examples of people speeding—sometimes vastly over the speed limit—and it is entirely and utterly unacceptable. However, I am pleased that the police have been continuing to do their speeding enforcement; a number of those people have been caught and have received some pretty severe fines and other penalties. Making cyclists feel safe is extremely important, and this money—the £250 million—is a very good start in ensuring that there are dedicated lanes for cyclists, such that they can be protected from cars. Even cars travelling at normal speeds can sometimes feel very fast to a cyclist. Having that enforcement is really important, as is towns and cities thinking more about the needs of the cyclist alongside those of the car driver.

[Lord Blencathra (Con)]

Will my noble friend the Minister acknowledge that London is not the UK? Will she ensure that plans to open up rail travel are based on the needs of the whole country, and look not just at London’s Tube and the cities? If we opt for a 14-day quarantine for everyone coming into this country then it must apply to every country, including France and Ireland. And will our Lords authorities please use the mute button for any Peer who rabbits on with a two-minute supplementary?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

It is not within my remit to answer that last question. However, my noble friend is right that London is not the UK. That is why Sir Peter Hendy has been working with the TOCs to open up rail services across the country. We are of course opening up all transport services across the country; that is incredibly important. On the point that he raises about 14-day quarantine and who that will apply to, as I have said previously, the scheme is still being finalised. The final details have not yet been announced, including whether there will be any exemptions.

[Lord Adonis (Lab)]

The noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, raised a crucial point about staggering the start and end of working times so that the peak is reduced, which makes it possible for more people to travel safely on the Tube. The Minister’s reply greatly concerned me, however, because she said that she was going to phone the London employer organisations tomorrow. Why is she doing it, rather than Transport for London and the mayor’s staff? This clearly needs military-style organisation, big employer by big employer, with spreadsheets and all the rest of it. With the best will in the world, I do not imagine that the Minister and her officials are undertaking that military-style campaign, but it is obviously appropriate for Transport for London and the mayor to do so. Will she clarify who is responsible for undertaking this work with the major employers in London?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I speak to TfL every few days and our call tomorrow will be done together, because we felt that that would be the most appropriate way to get the message across. As I think my noble friend Lord Blencathra said, London sometimes likes to think of itself differently. Adding in national government indicates that this effort has to happen across the entire country, which is why I am talking with the metro mayors as well. I am doing it with TfL, not to TfL, and there are certainly some very capable individuals within TfL who have excellent relationships with the employers. All I am doing is adding my help, but it is with the agreement of TfL.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

In her answers, the Minister has gone through a range of guidance and advice. It has been made clear today that the police have no legal powers to enforce social distancing. Can she tell your Lordships what legal powers transport operators have to enforce social distancing and crowd management in their stations, rolling stock and vehicles?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

The noble Lord is quite right. This is guidance; it is not a legally binding set of requirements and it is not designed to be. If we are to make our fight against Covid a success, to my mind it has to be a partnership between four groups: national government; local authorities, which know their communities; the transport operators that run the transport; and the passengers. If one of those four groups does not step up and fulfil their role, we will fail. That is why communication will be so important as we go forward with the fight against Covid.

[The Earl of Clancarty (CB)]

I welcome the recommendation that passengers wear face masks on public transport. If face masks are not to be mandatory, at least not yet, what will be done—an example might be adverts on the Tube—to strongly encourage this practice as a public duty in protecting fellow travellers and bus and railway staff, not just on the transport itself but on station concourses?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

Communication will be key when it comes to face coverings. It will be about getting across the message of “I will protect you and you will protect me”, through both people will wear face coverings. I take the noble Earl back 20 or 30 years, to the days of drink-driving. People do not drink and drive nowadays; they used to. Why? Because it is unacceptable. The damage that you might do to other people is the key issue. With the consent of passengers, we need to make sure that they do it because it is the right thing to do.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, on cross-border trains to Glasgow and to Edinburgh, which guidance should operators and passengers adhere to, that of the UK Government or that of the Scottish Government?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I think that I covered this in my remarks to the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson. A transport operator in Scotland should look at the Scottish Government’s guidance, and a transport operator in England should look at the guidance from the Department for Transport. That is the nature of devolution. I have not had any complaints about confused passengers or confused transport operators yet. We work closely with the devolved nations to make sure that each is aware of where things are going with regard to transport.

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine (Non-Afl)]

The Minister has mentioned that further guidance on e-scooters will be coming out, but she is aware of how silent they are and of their ability to move at some speed. Will they have some kind of registration or licensing which is clearly visible? They are extremely dangerous. Anyone walking around central London today will know that there are a lot of them out there, even though they are illegal. Will there be some recognisable licence on the basis of which people can be reported to the police when they break the rules?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

There are a large number of issues around e-scooters. A call for evidence is out at the moment which does not close until July. We will run the trials, the details of which will be announced soon, at the same time as responses to the call for evidence come in. From the perspective of the Department for Transport, it is important that we engage with all the right people on this. The noble Baroness makes some important points. We have to get it right: we have to make sure that e-scooters are limited to the right speed; we have to make sure that people feel safe in using them but also safe in being around them, and that they do not turn into a menace for pedestrians or wheelchair users using the pavement. There are all sorts of issues to be sorted out, but having the trial is a useful first step. Let us dip a toe in the water and see how we like e-scooters.

[Lord Goddard of Stockport (LD)]

ONS data figures on excess deaths released on Monday show an elevated death rate for bus and coach drivers, almost twice that for administration occupations. Is it not time to introduce systematic workplace testing for people in higher-risk groups?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

Workplace testing already exists. Anybody within the transport system who needs a test because they have symptoms of coronavirus can get one. Either they can sign up themselves or their employer can do it for them. That means that the individual concerned can find out whether they have coronavirus and, if not, and if they feel well, they can get back to work.

[The Deputy Speaker]

Lord Liddle. No? The noble Lord’s microphone has not been unmuted and he has missed his chance.

The time allotted for the Statement is now up. I am delighted to say that we virtually got everybody in to speak.

Motor Vehicles (Tests) (Amendment) (Coronavirus) Regulations 2020

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Wednesday 13th May 2020 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, for providing the opportunity to consider these regulations and to probe the Government’s intentions around vehicle testing for light vehicles, known as the MoT. The testing of HGVs and public service vehicles, such as buses, is covered in other regulations, but I will try to touch on these if I have time, and if not I will write.

The MoT market consists of a network of around 23,500 privately owned and operated test stations. Many of these garages combine both MoT testing and maintenance and repair work, as was noted by my noble friend Lord Carrington.

As the outbreak of Covid took hold, it became clear that temporary changes would need to be made to the MoT testing regime. The reasons were threefold. Prior to 23 March, the date on which the Government announced the lockdown, there was a noticeable drop of about 10% in the number of cars brought in for testing. This suggested that drivers did not want to risk infection. By then, elderly people certainly could have been choosing not to use their cars. Furthermore, the Driver & Vehicle Standards Agency, the DVSA, which oversees MoT testing, started receiving reports of vehicle dealerships, MoT testing stations and repair garages closing or reducing staff numbers. Drivers also noted that they were unable to get tests. Finally, on 23 March, the Government issued “Stay at home” guidance, which specified essential travel. Getting an MoT was not regarded as essential travel.

We recognised that, although car use would fall dramatically, most people would still need their car for short essential journeys, and key workers, particularly in the NHS and the care sector, would still need to get to work. We also recognised the ongoing need for roadworthy light vehicles, so that home deliveries of food could continue, for example.

There is also the issue of those not using their car at all. They of course have the option to make a statutory declaration when it is not in use on the road, but that is feasible only for those who will not use their car at all and have an off-road place to store it. For those who must use their car very infrequently or have to park their car on the road, the vehicle must have an MoT, so this action helps them too.

With around 8.3 million vehicles due for a test over a three-month period—about 92,000 a day—the department took the decision to reduce the risk of people being exposed to Covid-19 and enable them to comply with the stay-at-home guidance by introducing the changes under these regulations. Our actions, including discussions with insurers, also avoided difficulties with insurance policies, some of which required MoT tests to remain valid. The effect of the changes is that all light vehicles due to be examined between 30 March 2020 and 29 March 2021—a one-year period—are or will be excluded from the requirement to hold a test certificate for six months. The duration, namely to the end of September 2021, was set to cover the potential extent of the outbreak, as we saw it then—it is great to have hindsight—plus a grace period, which would allow the testing industry to recover and ensure that it is not immediately overwhelmed by a bow wave of cars coming to be tested.

Our decision to extend the MoT validity of affected vehicles by six months was taken after very careful consideration. We balanced the need to provide a sufficiently long extension to deal with the immediate impact of the epidemic with the need to avoid an unnecessary impact on road safety. We felt that the six-month period was appropriate; it is unlikely to change in the current circumstances. The duration of the changes remains under review and, if no longer required, this instrument will be amended to bring forward the last day on which a six-month exclusion can begin. A six-month exclusion that has already begun will not be curtailed. I repeat: we are looking at bringing forward the date for the period under which one gets this extension, but that decision has not been taken for the moment.

On tax and insurance, vehicle excise duty remains due on those vehicles eligible for this extension. The DVSA is updating its records as these extensions are added to people’s vehicle records and is then feeding this information through to the DVLA, which collects excise duty. Once that has been updated on the DVLA system, anyone can tax their vehicle as normal. We consulted the insurance industry when we were drafting this legislation. It should be noted that the Association of British Insurers said:

“In this unprecedented situation, insurers will not penalise you if you can’t get an MOT. Safety is paramount so check your brakes, tyres and lights before driving.”


The noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy, mentioned fines. The department has been in touch with the police and the DVLA and they have reassured us that they will take a pragmatic approach to enforcement during this time. No one wants to see fines levied on vulnerable people who are simply unable to drive their car at this time.

In the event that a vehicle is involved in an accident—an important point raised by my noble friend Lord Blencathra—the attribution would be to a vehicle being unroadworthy rather than not having an MoT. This is very important: the vehicle would be unroadworthy; it is not simply the fact that it did not have an MoT. A vehicle may become unroadworthy at any time, even if you have an MoT, so it is vital that drivers fulfil their legal responsibility that their vehicle is safe to drive, whether or not it has been tested.

As I have noted, even though many vehicles will be excluded from the requirement to hold a test certificate during this period, users are required under the Road Traffic Act to ensure that vehicles are in good working order. An MoT covers only certain things and is not the same as taking your car for a full service down at the garage. Drivers can be prosecuted if their vehicles are found to be in an unsafe condition when driving on the road.

The department has estimated that over the six-month period covered by the exclusion, approximately 29% of vehicles would have received a “dangerous” or “major” MoT failure. However, this increased risk is significantly mitigated by the reduction in trips; the current data shows a 58% drop in the amount of traffic on the roads. Although traffic is increasing at this time, particularly given the changes to government guidance, we expect a continued depression versus pre-Covid levels. I reassure noble Lords that, in the current environment, if one chose to get an MoT to get a car roadworthy for essential journeys, that in itself would be an essential journey.

Road safety is incredibly important to all of us. That is why the roadworthiness caveat exists in the regulations and why the Government have urged garages to remain open where possible. We are actively encouraging garages to remain open because we want to make sure that there are places for people to go to get their essential maintenance and repairs carried out.

Furthermore, the DVSA has issued guidance to drivers on what to do to keep a car safe and roadworthy. We are of course in regular contact with the AA and the RAC. Those organisations are repeating and reiterating these messages about getting cars on the road and getting your car back on the road when it has not been driven for a period.

The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, asked why 30 March. We were working at pace, as I am sure noble Lords will understand. Given that regulations could not be made retrospectively and we had to have a certain date from which they would be valid, that date necessarily had to be the short period after the imposition of the lockdown because the regulations had to be drafted and laid in Parliament. There had to be due process. There are vehicles whose MoT fell due before 30 March. These vehicles cannot have their MoT extended because it is not available to us using existing legislative routes. This is a second reason why the Government have urged garages to remain open where possible and we are very pleased that around 60% have done so, although some have a significant reduction in capacity.

MoT testing is still taking place and it is possible to find somewhere to get your car tested if it needs to be. The DVSA has published guidance on how to conduct tests while adhering to social distancing measures. As some noble Lords pointed out, some centres have just one person working there and certainly often fewer than five. It is possible to continue to carry out tests. Other measures recommended by the DVSA include enhanced cleaning, using contactless payment where possible and not issuing a paper copy of the MoT certificate, which can be printed or downloaded at a separate time. Our records indicate that the overall testing levels for vehicles with tests due before 30 March were normal, so we believe that there is no significant change in the levels of compliance.

Many noble Lords noted that these changes are quite significant. We recognise that. They were made following extensive consideration and consultation, required by the Road Traffic Act 1988. We consulted a wide range of different organisations, including the AA and the RAC, the Association of British Insurers, the Independent Garage Association and the SMMT, which represents new car manufacturers, mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Rennard. We consulted all these organisations and 15 responses were received, which expressed broad support for the proposals. As raised by noble Lords today, concerns included the financial impact of the proposals on the testing industry, as well as difficulties relating to the reintroduction of testing. We recognise that there will be challenges and we will have to overcome them.

The Government have consulted and continue to engage with the devolved Administrations, as requested by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, primarily on a day-to-day basis at official level on these matters, but Ministers in my department have ministerial-level discussions with them. Vehicle testing in Northern Ireland is devolved and Northern Ireland has taken its own approach, as noted by the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, by exempting both light and heavy vehicles for 12 months outright.

Given the urgency of the situation, we were not able to undertake a formal impact assessment. However, we did a proportionate analysis, looking at the impacts on things such as the ability of key workers to be able to get to work if they do not have an MOT, the road safety implications, effects on congestion, and financial losses to both the DVSA and garages. The financial impact on businesses has been estimated to be significant, possibly around £650 million, and a loss to DVSA will need to be considered.

Tests are going on at the moment. We are looking at 20% to 25% of normal test levels—the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, shared his success in booking one, so I am pleased that that there is availability out there. Some 60% of garages are open, and we believe that that number will continue to rise. It looks like between 75% and 80% of people are taking advantage of the extension.

We recognise the financial impact on garages, and the Government have done an enormous amount to support businesses during these difficult times. There is the Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme, which garages can use, and the coronavirus bounce- back loan will be particularly suitable for some of these smaller businesses. Given that financial support, we anticipate that there will be no issue with a significant reduction in capacity in MoT testing stations as we pull out of the current crisis.

As regards pulling out of this crisis, the situation is being kept under review. The regulations may be revoked or altered, and we will bring back further proposals to the House. However, we will absolutely make sure that we do not reintroduce the MoT test unless it can be conducted safely, with the least possible risk to people’s health, both MoT staff and those going in for the tests. We will also make sure that there is capacity within the sector. At the moment, on average, an MoT tester does only nine tests a week, so we believe that there is significant capacity within the system.

I am aware that I have now run out of time, and I have not covered HGV and PSV testing, which is separate to the regulations under consideration today. With the forbearance of noble Lords, I would therefore like to write in more detail and will also cover matters that I have not been able to consider—for example, the details around taxis and PHVs and how that interacts with local authorities and taxi licensing, and so on.

At times like these it is important that legislation is enacted quickly, in this case to protect the health of drivers and those working in garages. I am extremely grateful for the input of all noble Lords today, and these deliberations will be taken into account as we consider future changes.

Covid-19: Public Transport Safety

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Tuesday 12th May 2020 Lords Chamber

[The Senior Deputy Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)]

The Minister will answer the Question and the noble Lord’s supplementary question combined.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, passenger and transport worker safety is absolutely paramount. To help make journeys safer, my department has today published new guidance for both transport operators and passengers. If people must use public transport, two-metre social distancing and hygiene should be practised and a face covering is advised.

I turn now to some of the other points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley. We are of course very concerned about some of the characteristics that seem to be seen in those people who are the most susceptible to the coronavirus, and work is going on across government to investigate that further. For example, we have seen what appears to be a higher than average death rate among bus drivers. This is a tragic loss and we are working closely with bus operators to make sure that we do what we can to keep those workers safe.

[Lord McColl of Dulwich (Con)]

My Lords, it has at long last been acknowledged that the obesity epidemic is a very dangerous situation, especially now with Covid-19. In fact, 75% of people with this infection are obese. Would it not therefore be wise to advise them not to use public transport because it is such a dangerous thing for them? If anyone is tempted to say that calling someone obese is judgmental, perhaps I may point out that it is simply an accurate diagnosis.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I thank my noble friend for his observations. The Government recognise that there is much to be done from a transport perspective to help the nation’s health. That is why we have come up with a £2 billion boost for cycling and walking, which we believe are critical elements in helping people reduce their reliance on public transport. That is why we are encouraging people, if they are making journeys of three miles to five miles, or fewer, that they should consider walking or cycling. That is good for public transport and good for their health.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

On Sunday, the Prime Minister said, “Go back to work”, yet the Department for Transport did not publish its guidance to travel operators until this morning. I have read that guidance, and it is still very vague on key issues such as face coverings, screens and the handling of money. It is not prescriptive, but simply suggestions. That is not good. Why have the Government failed to provide the co-ordinated leadership needed by the bus industry throughout the UK?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I would challenge the noble Baroness in her assertion that the operator guidance is vague. It sets out the key elements that the operators must consider, but the important element is that each operator will be coming up with their own specific risk assessment which is suitable for their environment and their workforce, and, equally importantly, they will be consulting their workforce to ensure that the risk assessment is appropriate and that workers feel safe.

[Lord Whitty (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister acknowledges the importance of ensuring that transport workers are safe. However, any substantial return to work is bound to increase the vulnerability of transport workers and staff; she has cited the case of bus drivers. I regret to say that one of the London bus drivers who died was a friend and former neighbour of mine. Would it not have been more sensible to precede any general encouragement to return to work not with advice but very clear rules: on numbers, on social distancing and, above all, on face masks for passengers and staff on public transport? If not, and if there is nobody to enforce those standards, we will see a continuing problem with many transport workers.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

My Lords, the guidance for transport operators and passengers sets out clear expectations for two-metre social distancing. At some stages that will not be possible: on busier routes and at busier times, and at certain points on the journey. The Government also advise that people should use face masks or face coverings in enclosed spaces, particularly on public transport. I am not sure how much clearer the Government can be on that.

[Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB)]

My Lords, what assurance can the Minister give to disabled passengers who require assistance—of course within the safety considerations for all—that the current situation will not be used to dial back “turn up and go” or prevent disabled people travelling to work?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I thank the noble Baroness for raising this really important issue. In the operator guidance, there are clear points for those with protected characteristics, be they disabled, elderly or pregnant. We have been very clear with the transport operators that there must be no dialling back on the ability for all passengers to get a safe and reliable service. Travel may be slightly problematic for everybody, and therefore people are advised to plan their journey ahead where they can, to buy their tickets in advance and, most of all, to be patient. I reassure the noble Baroness that services for disabled people will continue as they did previously.

[The Lord Bishop of St Albans]

My Lords, as well as issues of safety when using public transport, many people in rural areas are worried that the already infrequent services in the countryside are now at further risk. What are Her Majesty’s Government doing to ensure that public transport will be maintained to support communities and the economy in rural areas?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

Rural transport is absolutely key to being able to provide for more vulnerable groups who have no alternative but to use public transport so that they are able to access the services they need. The Government have already provided funding to support the services during the lockdown, and we are in discussions with the Treasury regarding supporting more services as they ramp up. As I am sure the right reverend Prelate will understand, those services will be suffering from a revenue loss, which the Government will seek to make good to ensure that rural services can be restored to what they were before.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, as the former chairman of the APPG for cycling, I am thrilled that the Government are keen on people bicycling. However, without decent public transport, the economy cannot recover. Could my noble friend please tell me what discussions she has had with the Mayor of London? The reduction in Tube services has had a major effect on people being unable to travel, and people on the Underground are therefore much closer to each other than they should be.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I reassure my noble friend that we are in close contact with Transport for London. I speak to it probably every few days to assess exactly where it is on its restart plans—I have a call with it later on today. We are absolutely clear that the Mayor of London needs to ramp up services as quickly as possible and put in place protections such that transport workers and passengers feel safe.

[Lord Rosser (Lab)]

First, while public transport is a devolved issue, railway services and bus routes cross the borders between UK nations; I think that a few stations in England are also managed by Transport for Wales. It is therefore vital that the different UK nations develop public transport, passenger and staff safety guidance together and in line with each other. Can the Government give an assurance that the guidance that has been announced has also been agreed with the Governments of the devolved nations? Secondly, I am not sure that the Minister answered my noble friend Lord Berkeley’s question about existing benefits being maintained for bus drivers; for example, those who decline to continue to work because they feel that their safety is being compromised.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

Each devolved nation is responsible for its own guidance. However, I reassure the noble Lord that we are of course in contact with the Administrations in the devolved nations to make sure that our guidance is appropriate. Where there have to be changes or where they are desired, local considerations can be taken into account but without confusing passengers. I will have to write to the noble Lord on benefits for bus drivers.

[The Senior Deputy Speaker]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed. The Virtual Proceedings will now adjourn until 1 pm for the debate on the Motion in the name of the noble Lord, Lord True.

Aviation and Tourism: Cancellations

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Tuesday 5th May 2020 Lords Chamber

The Question was considered in a Virtual Proceeding via video call.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government’s position is clear. If a customer asks for a refund, that refund needs to be paid. The Government are in regular contact with the airlines and other travel providers, the regulators and consumer groups, to help businesses deliver on their commitments.

[Lord Blencathra (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for the clarity of that reply. Will she make it clear to all airlines and travel providers that sitting on £7 billion of customers’ money and inventing scams such as telling people to claim online or by telephone and then not answering those calls is a breach of the 2018 regulations, which require a full refund within 14 days? They must do that. Will they also stop their pyramid selling of phantom flights which will never happen, taking customers’ money and not refunding it? Is this not simply fraudulent?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

My Lords, the Government appreciate the frustration that consumers are feeling. We have made it absolutely clear that the customer should get a refund if they ask for one. However, we also recognise the enormous challenges that businesses face. They have very large volumes of such requests, and staff may not be available—they may have been furloughed. There may be capacity constraints because of social distancing, or an increase in staff absence due to illness. The regulators are working very closely with the industry to find out what the problems are and to ensure that customers get their money back.

[Lord Rosser (Lab)]

Which? magazine has reported that a quarter of those with a cancelled flight in April were not offered a refund, and 19% were waiting to hear back, with figures much the same for those who had a holiday cancelled. Indeed, I was given an example this morning of British Airways still not having delivered on a promised refund, a month later. The Government decide what financial support to give our key travel and tourism industry to keep firms afloat, but the Government and the Civil Aviation Authority should not be allowing consumers’ clear statutory rights to be ignored by some parts of the industry. I return to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra: when will the Government and the CAA act to protect the rights of consumers whose financial position may now be critical, as opposed to simply talking about doing so?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I do not accept that we are just talking about it. The CAA is in close contact with the industry; it recognises the current issues, and that there may be some delays. A consumer should not be told that they cannot have a refund. If they have been, they must contact the CAA with the details to find out exactly what is going on. We are working very hard to minimise the delays and to ensure that consumers get their money back.

[Viscount Waverley (CB)]

Compounding the distress, the tourism industry at destinations is also moribund. I fell foul of this myself, but recognised force majeure. Does the Minister recognise that certain carriers are avoiding legal compliance by not paying out on cancellations, yet are benefiting from bailouts or implementing internal redundancies and renegotiating contracts for those who remain? Notwithstanding this, will the Government consider supporting those who are uninsured by underwriting voucher claims in the event of future airline failure?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I thank the noble Lord for that suggestion and for bringing up the important issue of vouchers. Customers may be offered a voucher as opposed to a refund, but they are under no obligation to accept it. We are looking at all sensible proposals so that we can balance the protection of consumer rights, which is absolutely essential, with recognising the enormous impact this is having on an industry that employs hundreds of thousands of people and is a huge contributor to our economy.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

Does the Minister agree that one of the greatest problems facing the airline industry at the moment is cashflow? What support are the Government minded to lend to the airlines at this crucial time? What discussions are she and the department having with our international partners to enable flights to take off at some point this year, particularly regarding social distancing, which is important and very difficult to deliver on planes and at airports? What kit will passengers have to use and what will be done to enable our rules to be recognised by our international partners?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

My noble friend raises an important series of questions. On voucher support, the Chancellor has already announced wide-ranging support for all sizes of businesses. I encourage all those in trouble in the travel sector to avail themselves of the opportunities that there are. On restart and recovery, which is very much on our minds as well, an aviation restart and recovery team has been set up specifically at the DfT to work with the aviation industry to understand all the challenges it will have to get our planes back in the skies and to make sure that people can once again travel.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, the problem is not just with airlines, but with cruise operators and other providers. There appears to be a particular problem with those operators that are foreign owned. Many European countries have already changed their regulations to tighten this up. Are the Government planning to do likewise? Are they aware of the crucial issue that there is no point in having refund vouchers if a company no longer exists? Many of these companies are in danger of ceasing to exist in the near future.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, is absolutely right that many of the cruise companies are indeed foreign owned. Provided that a cruise has been sold, or indeed offered for sale, in the UK, it will be covered by the package travel regulations. Therefore, the consumer will be entitled to a refund within 14 days. If a cruise holiday has been sold outside the UK or the EU, different terms and conditions may well apply. I will take back to the department her suggestion that other EU countries have changed their regulations. We will look into it.

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

On hotel and travel cancellations, what action can a consumer take where the provider’s insurance is claiming force majeure due to circumstances created by Her Majesty’s Government?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

The issue around force majeure and contracts is complicated. I am sure my noble friend will appreciate that I cannot give firm advice, because in these cases, each contract is likely to be slightly different. In the case that this is happening to a consumer, I suggest that that consumer gets their own independent legal advice to fully understand the terms of the contract. It is also the case that some consumers who use a credit card will be able to make a claim with their provider. They might want to check with them as well.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

If the Government are considering the bailout of transport operators, will they make it conditional upon the fair legal treatment of customers, particularly regarding refunds, as well as on the payment of tax, decent treatment of workers and environmental impact, perhaps along the lines of the New Economics Foundation’s fair bailout decision tree?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

The provisions that have already been put in place and announced by the Chancellor are available across the economy. They therefore do not have the sorts of conditions that the noble Baroness outlines. However, the Government are always open to speaking to any company that has exhausted all other forms of support and taken all the actions necessary. In those cases, we will make sure that appropriate conditions are put in place to make sure that the company behaves exactly as we would intend it to.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, the Minister says that she is in regular contact with the airlines, but it is clear from what we all have heard, and from the exchanges today, that the airlines are thumbing their nose at the Government. In the light of the Question from the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, and all the contributions, will she go back to the airlines and say that it should not take months and months to make these refunds? With modern computer technology they can make them quickly. They are very quick at taking our money; they are not very good at paying it back.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

The noble Lord reiterates points that have been made previously. I can only reassure him that we are working with the airlines to understand the challenges they face in order to get the money back to consumers. There are unprecedented challenges at this time, but we also recognise that customers should get their money back and in a timely fashion.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has now elapsed. I thank noble Lords. That concludes the Virtual Proceeding on Oral Questions. Virtual Proceedings will resume at 2 pm for the Private Notice Question. Proceedings are now adjourned. Thank you very much indeed.

Passenger Train Services

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Wednesday 29th April 2020 Lords Chamber

The Question was considered in a Virtual Proceeding via video call.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, the rail industry implemented amended time- tables on 23 March in response to a decrease in passenger demand and reduced staffing across train operators and Network Rail. Train services have since been amended to ensure that they are meeting the needs of those who cannot work from home, and they are being kept under regular review.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

Should not the Department for Transport be thinking now about when we exit from lockdown and looking at increasing rail services, limiting the numbers on each train to allow for social distancing, staggering working hours and protecting workers? Surely it would be wise to talk with Network Rail and Public Health England about such arrangements.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I thank the noble Lord for his Question; he is completely and utterly right, and that is precisely what we are doing.

[Lord Blencathra (Con)]

My Lords, I agree that getting train services back to near full operation is absolutely essential. We have all seen reports recently of plans for physical distancing on platforms and seating on the trains, but can my noble friend the Minister explain how to distance oneself from other passengers on a train when using the narrow aisles or going to the toilet? Would compulsory face masks for everyone on a train be a potential solution?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I thank my noble friend for raising this important issue. Of course, we are being guided by the science and, in looking at how we will re-establish train services, we must look to and work with PHE on implementing the social distancing requirements that will still be in place, and whether face masks will be recommended and will have implications for social distancing. We are completely alive to this issue and it is worth recognising that, if social distancing continues as now, the maximum capacity on all public transport will be significantly reduced.

[Lord Hope of Craighead (CB)]

My Lords, my interest is in the service that LNER east coast provides to Scotland, particularly the north of Scotland. It is maintaining a good service between Kings Cross and Edinburgh, but the services to Inverness and Aberdeen have been discontinued. These measures are understandable for the time being, but it should be understood that having to change trains from the ScotRail services further north to the LNER in Edinburgh is time-consuming and particularly awkward for people who are disabled. Can that be kept carefully under review, and these services be renewed as soon as possible?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

The noble and learned Lord is completely right: it is regrettable that some services have to be significantly scaled back, and these are being kept under review. I reassure him that station staff are available to help disabled passengers transfer between trains as necessary.

[Lord Adonis (Lab)]

Can we thank all the staff who are working on the railways through this crisis and putting special arrangements in place? Given that the business model of the franchise is of course bust now and is likely to remain so after the crisis, what is the Government’s thinking: to try to reconstitute franchises on a new basis afterwards, or to move further in the direction of nationalisation?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I join the noble Lord in paying tribute to all transport workers; they have done an astounding job during this crisis. At the moment, we do not know what the long-term implications for rail and indeed other public transport modes will be. However, we believe that there remains an urgent case for modernisation and reform, so we will be looking at the recommendations in the White Paper that will come out of the Williams Rail Review. They will be at the heart of any changes that we make to put the passenger at the heart of our rail system.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

Since the Government now have much more control over the rail system, will they take the opportunity to simplify the rail ticketing system and to streamline and improve the procedure for claiming refunds? It is ironic that there are different processes for claiming refunds, given that the Government control the whole thing. In particular, will they ensure that refunds are given to people who hold railcards but are unable to travel at this time?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

If the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, is referring to refunds to season tickets at the moment, we have spoken to all train operators and made sure that the process is as simple as possible. We have made sure that claims can be made remotely; we have extended the refund period—the time during which refunds can be made—from 28 days to 56 days; and we have backdated refunds for season tickets to 17 March. To date, £120 million has been paid out on season ticket refunds.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

As the Minister has sort of said, this is a once-in-two-generations opportunity to change things and actually reform the railway, so how far is the thinking going? Are the Government thinking about changing the very inefficient and illogical pricing structures? What about accommodating the amount of remote working that might continue after the crisis—plus, of course, opening local lines for residents who are asking for them?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

The noble Baroness makes a very important point, which is that there is an opportunity to look in more detail at what changes might be needed. We will have to wait until the Williams Rail Review is published and the recommendations made, but one commitment that the Government have already made is to look at so-called Beeching closures. The Restoring Your Railway Fund has £500 million pledged to it. I reassure the noble Baroness that work on that fund continues and that bids put in for the March round of funding are being assessed. Details of a second round of funding for June were published on GOV.UK recently, so work is going on apace in that area.

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

My question is about Great Northern/Thameslink, which currently terminates at King’s Cross. The Minister will remember the chaos of the introduction of the new timetable, with a lack of drivers, et cetera. Can she ensure that drivers will be available for this really important link once it reopens all the way to Brighton, and that there will be no excuses about new drivers not knowing the route, about there being insufficient drivers because they are on furlough, or something else?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I reassure my noble friend that we are doing absolutely everything we can to put in place the plans we need to restart the railways. They are operating a significantly reduced service at the moment. The challenges are fairly significant, but we are working very hard to make sure that drivers are available on Thameslink, and indeed on all lines, to make sure that when we can restore services, they can be restored fully.

[Lord Rosser (Lab)]

First, can the Government confirm when the Williams Rail Review will be published? Is the publication date being put back by Covid-19? Secondly, do the Government share the view that the present divided responsibilities, for track and signalling on one hand and train operation on the other, cannot continue and that these divided responsibilities should now be brought together, or at the very least be brought together under an overarching holding company or authority?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

On the latter part of the noble Lord’s question, I would not want to pre-empt the Williams Rail Review by giving any indication as to what is in it—mostly because I do not actually know, not being the Rail Minister. On the publication date, I will take that back to the department to see if I can get an updated date for him, and I will write to him.

[Baroness Scott of Needham Market (LD)]

To what extent will demand for rail services be taken into account when deciding which sectors will be unlocked? How will this be managed given the significant regional variations in the use of rail for commuting?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

That is an incredibly important question. I am sure the noble Baroness will understand that we are considering all these issues at the moment. There will be regional variations according to which services are more likely to be used. There will also be variations with long-distance services and short-distance commuter routes. All these considerations are being put in. Also, when restarting public transport, one of the key things that we will have to do is look at local impacts—working with metro mayors, for example, and local transport authorities to make sure that they feed into the system and help us plan for their local economies, to get people back to work.

[Lord Polak (Con)]

Decisions and actions have serious consequences in these days. While accepting that there were many factors and issues to consider, will my noble friend the Minister comment on whether her department was satisfied with the decision taken by the Mayor of London and Transport for London to reduce capacity on London Underground passenger trains at peak times, causing dangerous overcrowding?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

The department was in close contact with TfL. Certainly, the reductions that it made had some consequences for overcrowding. Since then, we know that TfL has made significant changes to the morning service. It has applied station control measures and is working much more closely with the British Transport Police to make sure that overcrowding does not occur. We remain in close contact with TfL and, as importantly, as we restart the system, these issues will once again come to the fore.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)]

My Lords, I regret that the time allowed for this Question has now elapsed. I apologise that the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, could not ask his supplementary question. We move now to the second Oral Question.

Smart Motorways

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Tuesday 17th March 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Quin]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what further discussions they will have with motorist organisations and others concerning the implementation of their recently announced plan for smart motorways.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, last week the Government published an 18-point action plan to improve safety on our smart motorways. Whether it is increasing public awareness and understanding of smart motorways, helping to improve training and procedures for recovery workers or getting places to stop in an emergency shown on satnavs, to give just three examples, I can assure the noble Baroness that we will continue to have discussions with motorist organisations and others to deliver the plan.

[Baroness Quin (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful for that reply. I think the changes announced by the Government last week have been welcomed, but there are certainly fears that they still do not go far enough and that, in particular, the distances between refuge areas will still be too great. Given that surveys have shown that only one in 10 members of the public feel safe on all-lane running motorways, will the Government keep this under urgent, constant review and, if necessary, be prepared to abandon their use altogether?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

The noble Baroness makes a number of interesting points. There are two things to consider here: actual safety and the perception of safety. On emergency refuge areas, we are doing all sorts of things to ensure that they are more visible. On new motorways, the standard will be that they are three-quarters of a mile apart. We are making sure that, where possible, they meet the 15-foot width standard. As for the perception of safety, the important thing is that drivers understand what a smart motorway is, how it can benefit them, how they should use it and, if they get into trouble, exactly what they need to do.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, will my noble friend the Minister take my thanks back to the Government following the debate to which she kindly responded recently? Will she accept that the smart technology is not up to speed for the smart motorways, and will the Government delay the continuation until the smart technology is in place?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I thank my noble friend for her warm words about the report and put on record my thanks to everybody in the department who worked on it. It was an enormous undertaking, involving a huge amount of data that had to be analysed. I am perhaps not entirely sure to what the noble Baroness is referring as all sorts of technology already exists on these motorways, be that the red “X” signs to prevent people travelling in certain lanes, the enforcement of those signs, or the MIDAS speed monitoring systems. All sorts of things are in place. She may have been referring to stopped vehicle detection, which we are rolling out more quickly than we originally anticipated; that will be in place within three years.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, the smart technology not in place in most cases is that needed to detect vehicles stopped in the inside lane. The outcome of the review gives Highways England up to 36 months to roll this technology out. Does the Minister agree that 36 months is a long time for vital technology that is core in relation to the safety of these motorways? Does she agree that they should be converted back to their original layout, with hard shoulders, until technology has been fully installed in each individual case?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I am afraid I cannot agree with the noble Baroness. She is referring to stopped vehicle detection, which is just one type of technology and the safety case is not dependent on it. There are two other technologies that can also make sure that stopped vehicles are seen. They are MIDAS, as she well knows, and the CCTV that covers all elements of the smart motorway system. I would like the noble Baroness to consider one thing: does she accept that, if we were suddenly to turn around and put back the hard shoulder on all these motorways, by putting roadworks on those roads, we would immediately make those roads less safe?

[Lord Adonis (Lab)]

My Lords, can the Minister give the House the accident rate on smart motorways as opposed to conventional motorways?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

My Lords, that was the absolute crux of the 79-page report that we have prepared. We looked at it in two different ways. We looked at the average numbers and then delved down into the detail on whether a motorway, when it becomes a smart motorway, is more or less safe. I therefore encourage the noble Lord to read the 79-page report, if he has time over the coming weeks. From that, he will see that, in most ways, smart motorways are safer. In a smaller number of ways, on specific things, they may not be, but that again is within the margin of error. We are acting on these 18 points because it is absolutely important that people should feel safe as well as being safe.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, speaking as a simple sailor, it seems amazing to me that we call this smart. We have a road on which cars go along at about 70 miles per hour. If your car goes wrong, you stop in that road where cars are doing 70 miles per hour. I cannot see how that is smart when quite often there is no large gap where you can pull over. I would certainly not feel very happy if my car broke down—luckily it does not do that very often—having to stop on the inside lane of a motorway where traffic is belting along at 70 miles per hour. It does not seem very smart.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

The noble Lord will be well aware that if you are barrelling along at 70 miles per hour on the A31 Hog’s Back and you stop, there is no technology at all and there is no hard shoulder. We have roads all across our country that do not have a hard shoulder.

[A noble Lord]

They are not motorways.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

But you travel on them. You can do very high speeds and there is no technology to detect a car that has stopped. I shall go back to say something about something that is quite in vogue at the moment, which is evidence. That is what we did. We went back and looked at the evidence. I accept that the risk on a smart motorway may be different, but if you stop on the hard shoulder of a conventional motorway, that, too, is not safe. One in 12 fatalities happen on the hard shoulder of a conventional motorway. I encourage all noble Lords to go back to the evidence and have a look at exactly what it says. These motorways are in most ways as safe as, or safer than, conventional motorways.

HS2

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Wednesday 11th March 2020 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, for enabling us, once again, to get the HS2 horse out of the stable for a quick canter round the track. I will focus my response on the route, the speed and the stations and will cover as many other topics as I can as time allows. I will of course write to cover any omissions or to provide more detail.

With the right reforms in place, HS2 will become the spine of the country’s transport network, bringing our biggest cities closer together, boosting productivity and rebalancing opportunity fairly across the country. This Government’s decision to proceed follows careful consideration of Douglas Oakervee’s independent review into HS2 and wider evidence, including the phase 1 full business case, which is imminent. The Oakervee report has now been published and sets out what the Prime Minister described as the

“clinching case for high-speed rail”.—[Official Report, Commons, 11/2/20; col. 712]

Each of the issues being debate today—the route, speed and stations—have been carefully considered by the Government following not only the Oakervee Review but years of planning, development, public consultation and parliamentary scrutiny, taking a full range of views into account in making their decisions.

As noted by many noble Lords, HS2 has been a long time in the making—and there is still a little way to go—but the reasoning behind the design of HS2 began long before the Oakervee Review. As the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, pointed out, this has been supported by successive Governments and, since the publication in 2006 of the Eddington Transport Study, they have affirmed their goal to invest in transport infrastructure to meet growing demand for north-south movement and to strategically rebalance the economy. Between 2009 and 2012, domestic aviation and new motorways were appraised as modal alternatives to rail to meet these requirements, but rail was preferred on the basis of capacity, journey time and environmental impacts. A new conventional speed railway and upgrades to existing railways were also considered. The conclusion was that a new high-speed railway is the best option to meet the stated policy goals of improving transport capacity and connectivity between the UK’s largest cities and facilitating long-term economic growth.

Following the conclusion to progress a new high-speed railway, various scheme designs were considered for HS2. The current Y scheme was selected ahead of alternative designs on the basis of its relative affordability, journey times and environmental impact. For phase 1, the route was then refined by the passage of the phase 1 Bill through the Select Committee process, with some significant amendments being made. As such, the Government are confident in HS2’s design, specification and strategic objectives, which the Oakervee Review confirmed.

The route for HS2 has been designed to provide much needed rail capacity, primarily along one of the UK’s busiest rail corridors—the west coast main line. This route is currently the main route for passengers between London and major cities in the Midlands and the north-west, including Birmingham and Manchester. Since HS2 uses brand-new, dedicated lines, it will also free up space for services on the existing network. Network Rail estimates that more than 100 other towns and cities could benefit from this released capacity, and this Government are looking beyond that and looking to connect more towns and smaller places to the rail network, with funding to reopen some Beeching closures. Unfortunately, I have to disappoint the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, because I have no further information on that, but I will write to him if there is any available.

Some 25 towns and cities will be directly served by HS2. The Government have consulted extensively on its route, through public consultation and parliamentary scrutiny, and taken into account reviews such as the one most recently led by Douglas Oakervee. Clearly, the Government are conscious that, even with extensive consultation, communities along the route will continue to have concerns about the route chosen for the railway. It is impossible to construct a project of the size and scale of HS2 without affecting some people’s private properties. Where that is the case, we want to make sure that property owners are fairly compensated and that their cases are dealt with sensitively and with dignity and respect.

The phase 1 route was intended to minimise impacts on the natural environment. In this respect, the Chilterns tunnel was extended during the Bill’s parliamentary passage and many ancient woodland sites have been avoided. I note the comparison that was made—I forget by which noble Lord—between this and the construction of the A21. I thought that was extremely interesting. Certainly, the designers of HS2 have done their best to avoid as many ancient woodland sites as possible. It is true to say that HS2 Ltd has on occasion fallen short in its response to communities and property owners, which is why, in responding to the Oakervee Review, the Government have committed to looking at strengthening the role of the HS2 residents’ commissioner.

The speed of HS2 was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, and many others. I have said before and I will say again that it is not all about speed. It is about capacity. The focus on how fast the trains will run has detracted from the wider intended benefits of the project. We know that the west coast main line is full, and that we will get new capacity and connectivity from HS2. HS2 is procuring trains capable of speeds of up to 360 kph. As the noble Lord pointed out, why would it not if such trains are available? However, the timetable assumes an operating speed of 330 kph. The extra 30 kph will allow the system to catch up should any delays occur.

Both the Oakervee Review and its former deputy chairman, the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, separately agreed that a reduction in speed could cut costs. However, as both also pointed out, major savings could be achieved only through significant changes to the route design and alignment, which would require a completely new Act of Parliament for HS2 phase 1. Not only would this delay the start of construction by several years, causing uncertainty to people and blight to communities along the route, but any savings would be offset by the additional costs of a new hybrid Bill and environmental statement. The debate on reducing speed is not new; it has been considered many times and this Government believe that the right balance has been struck.

As with the route, the location of HS2 stations have been thoroughly tested, not only through public consultation but through parliamentary scrutiny and debate and reviews. The choice and location of the four phase 1 stations, at Euston, Old Oak Common, Birmingham Interchange and Birmingham Curzon Street, were tested by the Select Committee process for the HS2 phase 1 Bill, which received Royal Assent back in 2017. Of course, it is no secret that taking a new high-speed train line into the centre of London will be complex, and we have had the debate as to whether Old Oak Common would be a good permanent terminus. I believe that, having considered all the evidence, most noble Lords who took part in that debate agreed that it would be good to get the train going all the way to Euston.

On Calvert, specifically raised by the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, some of the key conclusions from Doug Oakervee’s review remain outstanding. The Government will respond to the Oakervee conclusion on passive provision for a station at Calvert in due course.

I was pleased to hear the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, bang the drum for Crewe, which turns out not to be the gateway to the north after all, but the gateway to Wales.

North of Crewe, there are plans for four further new stations: at Manchester Airport, Manchester Piccadilly, Toton and Leeds, which are all part of the plans for phase 2b, which have already been subject to public consultation. To repeat an old joke, the Prime Minister has been clear that

“we are not asking whether it is phase 2b or not 2b. That is not the question.”—[Official Report, Commons, 11/2/20; col. 713.]

There is no amber light, as the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, stated. The question is how it will proceed when it comes to integration with all the other major rail projects that the Government are financing in the north. That is why we are working with the National Infrastructure Commission and regional leaders to develop an integrated rail plan for the north and Midlands. It is not a review but a plan. Tens of billions of pounds are at stake in a number of rail schemes across the north and the Midlands, and we must get it absolutely right.

[Lord Adonis]

My Lords, the noble Baroness is doing a good job of reading out the brief from the department. However, could she help us by telling us when she expects phase 2b will therefore be open?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I wrote some of this brief, so I feel a little offended. I do not have that particular piece of data to hand, which I am disappointed about, but I will certainly write to the noble Lord when I can get it from my officials at the department.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton]

My Lords, there is one little update on the question of Crewe, which the Minister mentioned. It is worth reflecting on the fact that at the moment, the Wye and the Severn being flooded means that people trying to get to London from Wales probably cannot get there via Shrewsbury and Hereford, which means that they are forced to go to Crewe. That is quite a significant point.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I agree with the noble Lord: that is a significant point. This new train line is also about adding resilience. Now, if the west coast main line goes down, as I believe it did yesterday—for which my apologies—there is no plan B. Therefore, it would certainly give the people of Wales a plan B to get them either from London to Wales or vice versa.

The integrated rail plan terms of reference were published in late February—they may have been published on a Friday, but this Government work on Fridays. The Secretary of State aims to publish the plan by the end of the year. We want to get this right. It is important that we get it done, but it must be right. The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, made a couple of references to the Oakervee Review and various conclusions therein. Conclusion 11 recommended that we undertake a circa six-month study of the 2b scope in the context of the Midlands Engine Rail and Northern Powerhouse Rail proposals, so it is one of Oakervee’s conclusions. Conclusion 12 recommends that the Government consider smaller Bill phases

“to allow easier scrutiny of proposals in Parliament and faster construction”

so we may look at that. To do the phase 2b Bill in one go will be a challenge, but I am sure it is doable and that we have the stamina to do so. However, if it would be helpful, it might be a good idea to have smaller Bills. The Government’s next steps are therefore consistent with what Oakervee suggested.

On the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, on the route, the Secretary of State has committed to delivering HS2 to Leeds via the east Midlands; we have no plans to route HS2 trains from London to Leeds by Manchester.

On the specific issue of Leeds station, the HS2 station design for Leeds aims to integrate an HS2 station with the existing conventional station to allow for easy access and interchange between HS2, Northern Powerhouse Rail and local services across West Yorkshire and the north.

There was an original plan in Leeds to locate the HS2 station towards the south, but work to review the options further in 2014-15 recognised that priority should be given to greater interchange.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

There is a difference between having an interchange at the hammerhead and a junction at the east so that trains from the south can go to all other places.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I suspected that I would not keep the noble Lord 100% happy. I will certainly write to him.

I have various elements on the environment but that was not in the topic of the debate so I will have to write to the noble Baroness because I am out of time, which is incredibly disappointing.

[Lord Tunnicliffe]

Will the Minister be kind enough to consult Hansard and cover, by letter, any issues that she has not dealt with, then copy those letters to all noble Lords who have participated?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I will certainly do that; I thank the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, for mentioning it. I am aware that he asked some questions about governance and management, which are incredibly important. I will certainly go into detail on them and other things. I also note the comments from the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, and others about BCR and the analysis of transport schemes in general. As a Transport Minister, I am deeply aware of those issues; we will work on them over the forthcoming period.

I thank all noble Lords for their participation in today’s debate. HS2 debates are always very interesting; I am sure there are many more to come.

House adjourned at 7.21 pm.

Flybe

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Thursday 5th March 2020 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, with permission, I will now repeat a Statement made in the House of Commons by the Minister for Aviation earlier today. The Statement is as follows:

“With your permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a Statement about the collapse of Flybe. In the early hours of this morning, Flybe ceased trading. This was a commercial decision by the company, and Flybe has filed for insolvency. UK airports handled 9.5 million Flybe passengers in 2018, with 80% of these travelling within the UK. An estimated 15,000 passengers were due to fly today, so our immediate priority is to support passengers travelling home and employees who have lost their jobs. Flybe has had a challenging year in terms of its financial performance, with a decline in bookings and increased competition.

Levelling up connectivity across our regions and nations is a top priority for this Government. We are driving forward HS2 and Northern Powerhouse Rail, we have announced a £5 billion funding package for bus and cycle links, and we are investing £6.6 billion to improve the condition of local highway networks between 2015 and 2021. We are undertaking a review of regional connectivity to ensure that the UK has the domestic transport connections that local communities rely on, including regional airports. The Treasury is also reviewing air passenger duty—APD—to ensure that regional connectivity is supported while meeting the UK’s climate change commitments to meet net zero by 2050.

These measures featured in conversations with Flybe back in January, and in turn it agreed to continue operating. Since then, we have been working tirelessly to explore multiple options with Flybe’s shareholders to find a solution. Flybe outlined that problems with its business have been compounded by the outbreak of coronavirus, which in the last few days has resulted in a significant impact on demand. The directors therefore decided that it was not viable to keep Flybe operating. Unfortunately, in a competitive market companies do fail. It is not the role of government to prop them up.

Given the time of year, the nature of Flybe’s business and fleet and the routes it flies, sufficient alternative transport arrangements should be available, with other airlines or by road and rail. The number of passengers abroad is small and is further reduced as a result of coronavirus. For those passengers who are abroad, there is sufficient capacity on other commercial airlines to return to the UK. The Civil Aviation Authority and the Secretary of State are encouraging these airlines to offer rescue fares, and this is already happening. I would like to thank those, including easyJet, which has today announced that it will offer Flybe passengers a dedicated rescue fare up to the end of May.

We are working with bus and rail operators to support Flybe passengers in getting to their destination, and I am extremely grateful that the Rail Delivery Group has this morning confirmed that all operators are offering free travel to Flybe staff and passengers for a week, free of charge.

For passengers due to fly with Flybe in the next few days, I would ask that they do not turn up at the airport. They should instead please look at the website set up by the Civil Aviation Authority and talk to their travel agents, travel insurance providers and credit card companies. For those who do arrive at UK airports today, we are making government representatives available to offer support and provide information to passengers affected.

I would like to express my sincere sympathy to those who have lost their jobs as a result of this failure. This will include crew, engineers, technicians, staff at Flybe headquarters in Exeter, and others. We understand that this must be a very worrying time for workers and their families. The Department for Work and Pensions stands ready to support anyone affected by the closure with its rapid response service offer. This will be available to all those affected through local Jobcentre Plus outlets. Additionally, in the event of any redundancies, there are special arrangements for employees who are owed redundancy pay and other payments by their insolvent employer. The redundancy payments service in the Insolvency Service can pay certain amounts owed to the former employees from the National Insurance Fund. I will work with my ministerial colleagues to ensure that any redundancy payments are paid to affected employees as soon as possible.

We recognise the impact that this will have on UK airports, particularly those which have large-scale Flybe operations. Government stands ready to support this sector, and I have full confidence that it will respond as effectively as it always has. We are urgently working with industry to identify opportunities to fill routes and I have spoken to airlines today to emphasise this. Globally, aviation is facing challenges due to the impact of coronavirus. The Government are well prepared for this, and as the wider economic picture becomes clearer, the Chancellor has said that he stands ready to announce further support where needed. I will be chairing a round table with members of the aviation industry next week to discuss the issues presented by coronavirus.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank passengers for their patience and make known my appreciation for the work undertaken by everyone who has again stepped up to ensure that passengers and local communities are supported. We will continue to work across government to ensure that both passengers and staff are able to access the information and services they require at this sad and challenging time.”

My Lords, that concludes the Statement.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Randerson]

The two Opposition Front Benches are allowed 10 minutes, and I would like to finish what I am saying. Coronavirus will tip other transport operators into difficulties as well. Especially at this time, when we are expecting a large number of people to need healthcare, I ask the Government what measures they are putting in place to help the transportation of NHS patients from the Isle of Man to hospitals in Liverpool, which is a role that Flybe has undertaken up to now. This is a very specific concern.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I thank both Front-Benchers for their contributions; a number of very important issues were raised, some of which I can agree with and some of which I probably cannot. I think that all noble Lords will agree that the loss of Flybe is a significant hit to regional connectivity, and we must work with the regions to make sure that people are able to get to where they need to go. I am a little concerned that there seems to be much focus on regional connectivity and just air travel, but there are several ways of travelling from the regions. The noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, mentioned the south-west. The south-west does have trains and does have coaches; there are other ways to travel. The Government are undertaking a review of regional connectivity which will focus on aviation but will cover all modes of transport to understand exactly how the regions can interconnect.

There are two things—this was raised also by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson—about connectivity. It is not enough to get connectivity between airports; we must also make sure that there is good access to the airports and the train stations. Of course, this is all top of mind within my department.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, mentioned the passengers who have booked flights, and whether they will be able to get their money back. This is a private sector company, and it concerns all of us that some people may not have adequate protection. This will once again highlight, as other failures have in the past, the importance of having insurance. Some passengers will have ATOL cover. Others who have paid by credit card may be able to get their money back under Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act. Some passengers may be able to claim a refund by applying for chargeback, if they paid by debit card. Passengers can seek additional information and advice from Citizens Advice or Advice Direct Scotland.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, mentioned CAA resources; the CAA outlines the adequacy of its resources every year in its annual report. It is working within its current resource envelope in order to staff the failure of Flybe, and we are not aware that it has any concerns.

The Government are, of course, working very closely with all of the airports. A number of airports were heavily reliant on Flybe flights. We are working very closely; my colleague the Aviation Minister has already called the airlines and the airports this morning, and that engagement will continue. Later today, she will be calling key figures, either metro mayors or local authorities, where appropriate.

In terms of protections for employees, both of Flybe and of the different airports, the DWP does stand ready to offer support. It has been in touch with both BALPA and Unite already today and is working with them.

One of the points from the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, made me feel that she is very much in favour of aviation. However, Labour wants to include a frequent flyer levy, which would have a significant damaging impact on aviation. Should Labour wish to retain its goal of net zero by 2030, I think it was the GMB that said that that would mean one flight every five years for people. So I am not entirely sure that Labour can be the great champion of aviation; should it ever come to power it would indeed decimate it.

The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, mentioned PSOs. Those will be really important going forward and will be one of the key levers in the way we will be able to improve connectivity. We are looking at all options for expanding the scope of PSO policy. As we leave the European Union, the different rules we will be able to put in place will certainly be hugely beneficial to various places. On her specific question on transport from the Isle of Man to Liverpool, I will need to write forthwith.

[Lord Kilclooney (CB)]

My Lords—

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[Lord Kilclooney]

My Lords, the Minister referred to alternative bus and rail routes. As has already been mentioned, 90% of the flights from Belfast City Airport are by Flybe. Northern Ireland has no bridge or canal link with Britain. Will the Minister bring to the Chancellor of the Exchequer’s attention before the Budget the need to abandon air passenger duty on flights from Northern Ireland?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

The noble Lord raises an interesting point. Air passenger duty is under review by Her Majesty’s Treasury, as indeed are all taxes. The Conservative manifesto set out our commitment to consider the devolution of short-haul APD in Northern Ireland. We will work with the restored Executive to consider any proposals submitted for the devolution of short-haul APD. This builds on our recent call for evidence and our work with a technical working group that we have established to look into the operational and possible legal challenges around the devolution of short-haul APD.

[Lord Hay of Ballyore (DUP)]

My Lords, our deep concern in Northern Ireland is very much Belfast City Airport. The company operates 14 scheduled flights out of Belfast, carrying 80% of all scheduled passengers out of Belfast and 1.6 million passengers from Belfast to destinations across the United Kingdom. This is very serious economically for Belfast City Airport and will be a devastating blow. Do the Government have any plans to engage with the Northern Ireland Assembly, the First Minister or the Economy Minister in the Assembly to try to find alternative operators for the routes that have all now been abandoned?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

The Government are working extremely hard to find replacement operators for as many routes as possible. We are confident and have already this morning had proactive responses from various airlines about picking up routes. Returning to the question of the Isle of Man, which is serviced by British Airways and easyJet at the moment, the Isle of Man Department of Infrastructure is looking at contingency plans to replace the medical link previously provided by Flybe.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, several years ago the Government agreed a PSO for the service between Newquay and London, as other noble Lords have said. That means guaranteeing four flights a day, in my book. What will the Government do now to find another operator? How long will that take? It is easy to say that there is a train and a bus—you can even cycle, I suppose—but the Government agreed this PSO because they thought it necessary.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I hear completely what the noble Lord is saying. The route from Newquay to London is clearly incredibly important, which is why it has attracted a PSO, so we are looking at a replacement operator. We hope one will be able to step up. The local authority can select a new provider for seven months, then re-tender.

[Lord Trefgarne (Con)]

My Lords, having once worked as a pilot flying domestic services out of Southampton, among other places, I am pretty sensitive to what has happened. Can my noble friend say what public funds have so far been made available to Flybe? Will they be recovered?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

My noble friend raises an interesting point, because there is a lot of misconception around what happened in January and what public funds were or were not made available. The conversation in January focused on a number of commitments from the Government, which included a review of air passenger duty, the review of regional services and a time-to-pay agreement, which any business can enter into with HMRC to get through a short-term cash-flow difficulty. Not a single penny of taxpayers’ money was given to Flybe. In return for looking at those things, the share- holders put in additional cash to get Flybe through its operational difficulties. It is those same shareholders who have now concluded that Flybe has no long-term future.

[Lord Empey]

My Lords, if the normal public service obligation process is used, it will take a long time. Will the Minister consider a short-term use of a PSO to keep some of the critical routes open while negotiations to get long-term operators continue? We have a perfect storm whereby all airlines are suffering because of the virus and because this is a very difficult time of year for them. As has been pointed out, in Belfast between 80% and 90% of the flights are Flybe. There are some critical routes, and we have no alternatives. I appeal to the Minister to bring in a special type of PSO in the short term to keep some of these key routes going while negotiations continue, because many of them will profitable. Also, would she be prepared to meet with me and my colleagues as soon as possible to discuss this?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

The noble Lord raises an interesting point about PSOs. The Government are looking at all options to restore as many routes as possible. We must also be mindful that wherever we restore routes, we must do so within the law as it stands regarding PSOs.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that 27% of flights from Cardiff Airport are operated by Flybe, and that 340,000 passengers a year use it to fly from Cardiff to European destinations? Will the Government arrange urgent discussions not only with other air operators and all train operators but with the devolved Governments to discuss the short-term crisis facing them and how to achieve a longer-term strategic settlement that addresses the economic implications for regional economies?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

The noble Lord raises an interesting point. My colleague, the Aviation Minister, will be making calls this afternoon to the devolved Administrations and many other stakeholders to ensure that this is the start of a long-term discussion about the importance of air connectivity to the regions.

[Lord Caine (Con)]

My Lords, as a regular user of Flybe services from Belfast over many years, I too am deeply saddened by and concerned about today’s announcement. The impact on Northern Ireland could be huge. I welcome the Minister’s reference to the commitment in the Conservative Northern Ireland manifesto to looking at devolving short-haul air passenger duty to the Northern Ireland Executive. In view of today’s sad announcement, and the fact that we now have an Executive up and running, will the Minister commit to taking this forward as a matter of urgency?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I thank my noble friend for his comment. I believe that this work is already under way.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, how will Flybe’s collapse impact on Skybus and its flights across the Scilly Isles? Does this make it even more important that we push for the ferry that should be running between the island and the mainland?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I am not aware of any impact on Skybus, although I am not 100% sure about that. The Isles of Scilly are a very important destination for a number of Members of your Lordships’ House, and a ferry is certainly a very good way of getting there.

[Lord Hope of Craighead (CB)]

My Lords, following on from the point made about passenger duty, I am sure that the Minister appreciates that that is a devolved matter so far as Scotland is concerned. Will there be discussions with the Scottish Government on this matter? It is quite important that a solution be found which covers the whole of the United Kingdom.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

The noble and learned Lord is quite right: the Scottish Government have taken a slightly different approach to passenger duty from the UK Government. Discussions with the devolved Administration will be under way this afternoon, and they will no doubt include the future of air passenger duty, but it is for Scotland to decide how they wish to charge it.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, the discussion to date has, necessarily, been a sticking-plaster type of discussion; and noble Lords have raised other airports and operators that may in future require such sticking-plaster announcements. Can the Minister confirm that some sensitivity analysis is under way to identify where problems could arise in future? Does she agree that, in the long run, the way to deal with such issues is to have a proper strategic transport plan across the country?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

My Lords, the aviation industry is a highly competitive market, and obviously, private companies operate in it. None the less, the noble Lord makes an important point about the Government’s insight into the financial future and sustainability of airlines. I am sure that he will be pleased to hear that the CAA already undertakes that role. Where potential financial issues are on the horizon, the Government are made aware. Therefore, plans can be put in place.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, may I declare an interest, in that my wife and I are due to fly with Flybe to Bergerac for Easter? I am particularly concerned about that. I am grateful for the Minister’s helpful advice on seeking compensation but my question is about the Flybe shareholders. My understanding is that Virgin is a major shareholder and that the plan was for it to operate these services as Virgin Connect. Why has Virgin not been involved? Why is it not ready to take over the services? Our understanding is that Virgin is a major aviation company in the United Kingdom.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

The noble Lord is right. Virgin is a minority shareholder in Flybe, with a 30% stake. My understanding is the same as his—that Flybe was due to be rebranded as Virgin Connect. I think that overnight, the shareholders reached an agreement that there was no long-term future for Flybe as it stood, so they decided to pull the plug and make it insolvent. From now on, therefore, the winding-up process will be in the hands of the insolvency practitioner, using the usual well-established processes of insolvency. On the other point, I am sorry to hear that the noble Lord’s tickets to Bergerac may not be valid, but I am sure that he will receive compensation somehow.

[Lord Bates (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for this timely Statement and for the detail and comfort that she can offer at this time. Can she underline some important information for passengers using Teesside International Airport, who may be concerned about this? The Tees Valley mayor, Ben Houchen, has done a tremendous job in getting that airport up and going. Flybe is a franchise partner of Eastern Airways, but Eastern Airways is independent. It operates its own aircraft and has its own crew, and it is completely unaffected by this announcement. Mayor Ben Houchen put out this statement today:

“Eastern is completely independent of Flybe and as a result passengers using Teesside Airport will not experience any disruption as a result of the anticipated devastating news for Flybe. I want to stress that flights will continue as normal and can continue to be booked through Eastern’s own booking system.”


Will my noble friend underline that important message?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

My noble friend is absolutely right. We cannot be clear enough that this affects only Flybe, and that at many airports, Flybe makes up only a small number of the flights. At Teesside, I believe that Flybe passengers account for only 14% of passengers, so that airport remains very much open for business, and there are some excellent airlines operating out of it. Passengers should therefore continue to fly with confidence. For example, at Leeds Bradford, Flybe accounts for just 5% of passengers. Again, passengers should feel confident in booking with other airlines out of Leeds Bradford—and, indeed, many other regional airports.

[Lord Hendy (Lab)]

My Lords, Flybe is not the first notable company to go bust in recent times—one thinks of Carillion—but does the Minister agree that the protection of workers in these circumstances is totally inadequate? Will the forthcoming Employment Bill be an opportunity to enhance and protect their rights in relation to prior consultation on circumstances that might lead to the collapse of a company; to place obligations on the company to provide more by way of retraining and assistance with finding alternative employments; and to enhance redundancy pay? One sympathises with the passengers in this case and the customers of other companies, but it is the workers who, I understand, heard of their loss of jobs—their loss of careers in some cases—on the radio, as we did, this morning.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

On the issue of communications with employees, hearing it on the radio is less than ideal. I am sure it is not how any noble Lord would treat any of their employees. It is not acceptable and there are better ways of keeping employees up to date with what is going on. I cannot agree with the noble Lord that all is doom and gloom for employees and that everything must be improved. As I set out in the opening Statement, there are many routes that employees can now take. The Government stand ready to help, working alongside the unions, and the Insolvency Service is able to make payments.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

To pursue the question put by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, on routes and the fact that Virgin is a major shareholder of Flybe, what will happen to Flybe’s profitable routes? Can my noble friend assure the House that there will be a proper procedure to make sure that they are sold to the highest bidder, so to speak? I raised the question of PSOs in the earlier Statement: will she make sure that this is dealt with as a matter of urgency?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

Aviation services are part of the market economy and we would expect the profitable routes to be taken up by other airlines. As I have mentioned, we have had proactive input from a number of airlines looking to service those routes. I can say no more about PSOs. The Government are looking at both the profitable routes and those that may need support, and at all possible options to get them up and running.

[Lord Empey]

My Lords, the issue of air passenger duty has been raised. I ask the Minister to consult with her Treasury colleagues about it because, in the event of it being devolved to, say, the Northern Ireland Assembly, the difference in revenue created by the reduction in air passenger duty would automatically come out of the Northern Ireland block grant. As the new Executive are at least £600 million short, that would be a huge challenge. Will she consult with her colleagues in the Treasury, pre-Budget, to make that point? It could be a way of opening things up but it would cost the Northern Ireland Executive an awful lot of money that they do not have at their disposal at the present time.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I thank the noble Lord for his comments. I will certainly make sure that the Treasury sees them.

[Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate (Con)]

Will my noble friend acknowledge the fact that, often, the slots available to airlines are of more value than the trading conditions? Can she confirm that we will not see here a market for slots, from which a number of airlines will benefit without taking the social responsibilities that will be lost as a result of this failure?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

My noble friend makes an important point about the tension between the slots, social responsibility and regional connectivity. The Government will be looking at that issue with keen interest as the Flybe assets go through the insolvency process. As my noble friend will know, slots are subject to an independent system of allocation managed by Airport Coordination Limited, which follows international rules. The Government are alive to what my noble friend is saying.

[Lord James of Blackheath (Con)]

My Lords, in 1987, I was chairman of Dan-Air in identical circumstances. I had to put in a liquidator if we could not find an immediate solution. The night before, I had dinner with John Major and explained to him the dire effect that this would have on the whole of the Gatwick complex; it was likely to close Gatwick completely as we owed it so much money. He had breakfast the next day with Lord King, and by 4 pm Lord King had bought Dan-Air from me for £1. As a result, nearly all the collateral damage we are talking about here was avoided. The bits that were of great merit and worth keeping, British Airways duly kept and unified. The only logical solution here to avoid the calamity that will follow from the complete closure of Flybe is for it to be taken over immediately by one of our surviving airlines. If instead of paying me £1, somebody has to pay it a bit more to do it, it will be a far better job than putting in a liquidator.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I thank my noble friend for that little piece of history, but this Government’s view is that it is not our role to prop up a company that clearly has no viable long-term future. If it had a long-term future, another airline would have stepped up to purchase it.

Holyhead

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Monday 2nd March 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Humphreys (LD)]

On behalf of my noble friend Lord Roberts of Llandudno and with his permission, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in his name on the Order Paper.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, the UK and Welsh Governments have committed £240 million of joint funding to the north Wales growth deal. The UK Government are working to bring greater investment growth and job opportunities to communities across Wales. The north Wales growth deal represents real progress in achieving those aims.

[Baroness Humphreys]

I thank the Minister for that reply. The Northern Ireland protocol signed by the Prime Minister in October establishes a border in the Irish Sea. According to the boss of Stena Line,

“there’s a border, and the border requires checks”.

The assumption is that these checks would be carried out in British ports, including Holyhead. If the Government do not intend to renege on the agreement, what plans do they have to provide new infrastructure at ports and how will this be financed?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

My Lords, the Government are engaging with the Welsh Government and local partners to understand not only their plans, constraints and opportunities, but how best to support the planning for operational readiness. The ports that are best prepared on 31 December will have a competitive advantage.

[Baroness Redfern (Con)]

My Lords, post Brexit, we are told that the Government will create 10 superports. The Humber ports are not merely an alternative to Dover but a driver for the northern powerhouse. They can provide a quicker, cheaper and greener solution to trading logistics. When will a decision be made on those ports?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I thank my noble friend for asking me about the free ports because they could be a great way of boosting trade, attracting inward investment and driving productivity. The Government have published a consultation document. We will be looking for up to 10 national hubs to work as trade, innovation and commerce centres. A consultation process is under way and we look forward to being able to announce the results soon.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware of the recent decision by Stena Line to re-register its new boat, the “Stena Estrid”, which was originally registered in Cardiff, in Limassol, with significant implications for those working in the Port of Holyhead? If she does not have the answer to this at hand, will she write to me with any details she can find?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I thank the noble Lord for his question. I was very prepared to respond to questions about ports but not on ships today, so I will have to write to him.

[Lord Lexden (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Humphreys, referred to the creation of a border in the Irish Sea, and there has been a great deal of speculation about this. Will the Government permit such a border or not?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

My Lords, that is a long and complex question with a long and complex answer. As noble Lords will know, arrangements for borders in the Irish Sea or elsewhere are currently under discussion.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, the infrastructure in Holyhead, like the infrastructure in many ports around the UK, does not include the ability for ships, particularly ferries in the case of Holyhead, to plug in and go on to shore power. Consequently, when they are berthed alongside, they have to run their diesel generators all the time, which has a huge impact on the environment. Is there is any intention to make sure that the ports around our nation have shoreside electrical supplies so that we can cut this huge spike in diesel emissions?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I agree with the noble Lord that that has to be a concern. As I mentioned in my opening Answer, the Government and the Welsh Government have committed £240 million to the north Wales growth deal. One of the projects within that deal will involve enormous changes for the better at Holyhead. I will endeavour to find out whether facilities to plug into shore supplies will be available.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister suggested that it is up to ports to be prepared but, while it is of course for the Government to give a signal on borders and potential borders in the Irish Sea, the uncertainty of the situation in respect of Holyhead is having very serious implications. At what point in the negotiations with the EU over the coming months do the Government expect to discuss and finalise the border arrangements between Northern Ireland and Great Britain?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

As the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, will know, I cannot possibly answer that question at this time because those sorts of things are still being finalised. However, we have been talking about this for a very long time now. An enormous amount of planning has already gone on, particularly around the previous exit date of 31 October. The Border Delivery Group has been up and running for a long time and we are working with local partners to understand what needs to be done. We have already looked at any potential disruption and what could be done to mitigate it—work is well under way.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)]

My Lords, is the noble Baroness confident that the new infrastructure at Holyhead will be completed by the end of this year?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

In terms of border checks, I hope so because as I said in a previous answer, the best-prepared ports will have a competitive advantage. I very much hope that Holyhead will be at the forefront.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, Holyhead relies on seamless trade both across the Irish border and through UK ports. Does the Minister share my concern that border checks could lead to Wales being bypassed completely in favour of alternative routes that facilitate seamless trade across the EU, with devastating consequences for trade and the economy?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

My Lords, we want trade to be as frictionless as possible, and are therefore in discussions with ports to understand exactly what they will be doing to make the checks that will be needed. There will be new checks, but for traders that are ready there will be little or no delay in getting through the port.

[Lord Geddes (Con)]

My Lords, the question from the noble Lord, Lord West, prompts me to ask my noble friend about the paucity of charging points for the much-vaunted electric cars.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I so thank my noble friend for that question. I believe there will be a debate fairly soon about charging points for electric vehicles. It is obviously a huge priority for the Government. We are making great investments through the plug-in car grant for people who want to buy electric vehicles, and are matching that investment for charging points.