Low Traffic Neighbourhoods

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Monday 3rd July 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Deech]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the balance between (1) the duty of local authorities under section 122 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 to secure expeditious, convenient and safe movement of vehicular traffic and pedestrians, and (2) the imposition of low traffic neighbourhoods and low emission zones.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, the department has made no such assessment. It is for local authorities to ensure they manage their roads in such a way as to fulfil the duties placed on them. They have a wide range of traffic management tools to support them in this.

[Baroness Deech (CB)]

My Lords, I declare a type of interest in that I drive an all-electric car and I have a clear conscience.

Does the Minister want people to return to work and productivity to increase? I am urging the Government to stop any government inducement to obstacles placed in the way of normal life in pursuit of ideology and fines, not science. Studies prepared for Oxford show that pollution is simply displaced from the centre and the same amount goes to the ring road where poorer people tend to live, and they are the ones punished by fines.

There are about 100 empty shops in Oxford. Businesses near the low-traffic neighbourhoods are folding with great losses, and they are often owned by ethnic minorities. There are tussles in the streets over the barriers, ambulances take longer and the once beautiful Broad Street is filled with industrial crates. Working people are having great difficulties, the consultations are ignored and the scientific evidence is withheld. Most important of all, the traffic blockades discriminate—even the blue badge is not exempt. Will the Government enforce the protection of the rights of elderly, pregnant and disabled people?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

There was a fair amount in that statement. The noble Baroness mentioned Oxford, and it is important to understand that all the issues she mentioned should be taken up with the local authority. The Government have never been in control of local roads and are not now. These issues are devolved to the local authority, and I encourage her to raise those issues with her local council.

[Lord Woodley (Lab)]

Speaking of convenience and safe movement of traffic, can the Minister say what is happening with autonomous vehicles, be they cars, lorries or buses, particularly with the trials going on in this country and stretching right across Europe?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The Government believe that there is a huge future for autonomous vehicles, and we will bring forward legislation when parliamentary time allows.

[Lord Storey (LD)]

My Lords, I am sure the Minister agrees that we must get this right. The Transport for London web page tells us the details about the scrappage scheme changes and the full eligibility criteria for small and micro-businesses and charities. The new grace period will be available on the discounts and exemptions page at the end of this month, but the scheme is to be implemented in August. Does the Minister think it is acceptable that people struggling with rising costs should have only a few weeks to find out if they are eligible?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The scrappage scheme in London is of course under the remit of the Mayor of London, and the Government have no recourse to have any influence over it.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, raised an important point. Would it not be sensible for the Government to have some conversations with these local authorities? Oxford, with a bereft high street, is not the Oxford most of us know and love, and it is important that we get this thing in perspective. The Government surely have an overall duty here.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, one-way streets, traffic calming and pedestrianisation have been used for decades. In some circumstances, they have been put in and are not working, and in those cases it is for the local authority to be held accountable by the local electorate. The Government do, however, provide various bits of guidance, both statutory and non-statutory, to assist local authorities to come to the right decisions.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, is participating remotely.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, on low-emission zones, can Ministers identify any research showing that vehicles travelling over a given distance at a constant 20 miles per hour in a low gear at high revs emit less carbon monoxide than vehicles travelling at 30 miles per hour in a higher gear at low revs? When I asked for the evidence in 2021, this Minister gave the following answer:

“The Department does not have specific results for the situations outlined”.


How can the public throughout the UK have confidence in a speeding regime which lacks detailed assessment?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

It is up to local authorities to decide on local speed restrictions, which they are encouraged to evaluate. As the noble Lord will know, in most circumstances 30 miles per hour is the limit, but some local authorities have chosen to make some streets 20 miles per hour.

[Lord Shinkwin (Con)]

The noble Baroness’s Question raises the important issue of the safe movement of pedestrians. My noble friend the Minister may be aware that the danger to disabled pedestrians posed by the irresponsible use of e-bikes and e-scooters in the centre of London’s low-emission zone was the focus of a recent Policy Exchange paper, A Culture of Impunity, to which several noble Lords contributed. Can my noble friend write to me with a formal response to its recommendations and place a copy in the Library?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I will certainly look into that, but I am not entirely sure that I will be able to do as my noble friend asks. The safety of people on our roads is critical, and one of the elements of traffic management is the reduction in killed and seriously injured people which I am sure all noble Lords would want to see. It is not just about journey time changes but increasing the number of people walking and cycling, and looking at modal shift and levels of car ownership.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I was brought up in Oxford. It was known then as the “city of screeching tyres” and the college buildings were blackened by pollution. Surely the best way to promote the city is to continue with the huge environmental improvements that are taking place there.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

As I said earlier, that is a matter for the council.

[Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)]

My Lords, local authorities are still having to rely on outdated guidance from 2007 for the design and modification of residential streets. In a debate in the other place in November last year, Minister Richard Holden referred to the Department of Transport publishing a revised version of the Manual for Streets early in 2023. Can the Minister please give us update on when we can expect that new manual?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Yes, I can indeed. The Manual for Streets is an important document on which we have engaged closely with stakeholders. That engagement is still under way but I can commit to the noble Baroness that the document will be published soon.

[Lord Polak (Con)]

My Lords, I declare an interest: I was invited to a speed awareness course for travelling at 25 mph on Park Lane. Can my noble friend explain how Park Lane, with three lanes and a bus lane, can possibly be a 20 mph zone?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

It is a 20 mph zone because the Mayor of London has decided that it should be.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, I am biased but the question from my noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours, on the emission levels associated with a 20 mph limit and a 30 mph limit, was splendid. I did not catch whether the Minister answered that question, which is presumably a pretty precise one, on which there can be scientific evidence. Can she try to answer it now?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am not aware of any research in that area but I will take that question back to the department and write to the noble Lord.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, I have enjoyed the Minister’s answers, batting away some of the silly questions she has had from her own side. I just wonder whether the explanation for shops shutting is not that people are working from home now but simply the cost of living; and perhaps people are not travelling as far and are shopping locally.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I reassure the noble Baroness that there are no silly questions in your Lordships’ House. As I mentioned earlier, many of these schemes are put in place to enable local economic growth. I cannot conceive of my local town centre still having cars in it: it is a hugely thriving town centre because it is pedestrianised. However, what is really important is that local councils need to get it right. If they do not get it right, they need to listen to local communities and remove any interventions.

Great British Railways

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Wednesday 28th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Snape]

To ask His Majesty’s Government when they intend to bring forward legislation to create Great British Railways and progress contractual reforms for train operators.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, we will progress legislation to establish Great British Railways when parliamentary time allows. New passenger service contracts will balance the right performance incentives with simple, commercially driven targets that will ensure a central role for the private sector in delivering for customers.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

My Lords, the short response to that would be to ask why it has not been done before. The current subsidy to the railway industry is about three times more in real terms than it was to the much-maligned BR in the 1990s. Legislation to bring forward an organisation that will put together the disparate but essential parts of the railway industries, such as track and train, is long promised and long overdue. The present system pleases neither passengers nor staff.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am seeking a question in that comment. I can say that the number of passenger journeys is now significantly higher than ever it was under British Rail. Between January and March 2023, there were around 400 million journeys, which is an astonishing achievement. There are so many things that we can get on with when it comes to Great British Railways—just one example being the long-term strategy for rail. We have received hundreds of responses to the consultation for that, which we will be publishing later this year.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, at the George Bradshaw address in February, the Secretary of State for Transport said that Britain has

“a broken model. Unable to adapt to customer needs and financially unsustainable”.

Given this devastating judgment by the Secretary of State only five months ago, why have the Government abandoned the plans they had to introduce legislation to create Great British Railways within this Parliament? Why is it now possible to adapt, when in February the Secretary of State said it was not?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I think the noble Baroness is reading a little too much into those comments. The Secretary of State is completely right that the current financial situation is unsustainable, but at no time did he say that plans to set up GB Railways had been abandoned. He also set out all the different steps that we can take without legislation—for example, contactless payments, simplifying fares, looking at the existing national rail contracts and entering into local partnerships. All those things are being done.

[Lord McLoughlin (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my interest as chairman of Transport for the North. I agree with my noble friend the Minister about the remarkable transformation we have seen in the railways since privatisation and the huge increase in passenger take-up, from 700 million journeys to 1.8 billion in the year prior to the pandemic. Does my noble friend agree that there is a malaise at the moment within the industry as to what the future direction should be? Too much at the moment is being controlled by the Department for Transport, which is, of course, controlled by the Treasury. That is not the best way to run a very successful industry. That is why we need GBR as soon as possible.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I point my noble friend back to the long-term strategy for rail, which will help the industry to understand what the medium-term future for the railways looks like. As to what we have been doing to increase revenues and free up the train operating companies, we are looking at the current railway contracts and at ways to put in stronger revenue-incentive mechanisms and allow train operating companies to put resources into increasing revenues.

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester (Lab)]

The Minister will have heard strong support for the establishment of Great British Railways across the House. This is an innovation that I think would survive a change of government, if one were to occur next year. Would it help her if she took a look at the Deregulation and Contracting Out Act 1994, and the establishment of an SI under that Act, which would enable the department’s franchising functions to be devolved to GBR if we are not to have primary legislation?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am very grateful to the noble Lord for his helpful intervention.

[Lord Haselhurst (Con)]

My Lords, can my noble friend provide assurance about some of the small schemes that are in waiting, such as the Ely junction enhancement which will have benefits east, west, north and south?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The Government are investing record amounts in the railways. In control period 7, between 2024 and 2029, we will be investing £44 billion in infrastructure. Obviously I cannot comment on specific schemes at this time, as the RNEP will be published which will set out which enhancements we are able to prioritise.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, as a regular champion of LNER on the north-east coast, a nationalised rail company run by the Minister’s department, can I ask whether there has been any assessment by the Government of why this train company appears to be head and shoulders above all other privately run train companies in the UK in public acclaim?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

There are so many factors involved in looking at comparative performance between the different train operating companies, and the Government publish as much data as they can. I pay tribute to staff at LNER, and agree that it offers a great service. However, I took a train up to Norwich last week, and I had great service on that too.

[Lord Watts (Lab)]

My Lords, amid the claims about the number of journeys, what about the cost? It is now cheaper to fly to New York than to travel from Manchester to London on the train.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The Government are always looking at what we can do to improve the services and passenger experience on our railways. We are looking at simplifying fares. The noble Lord will know that we have introduced single-leg pricing on LNER and are looking to potentially do a trial around demand-based pricing. All of these things will serve to put downward pressure on prices.

[Lord Liddle (Lab)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as a regular Avanti user. I have been in correspondence with the Minister about the train service fairly frequently. Does she accept that, if one of the big objectives of this Government is to level up between the north and the south in England, and to provide good connections to Scotland, a decent service on the west coast main line is absolutely essential? That does not exist. The proposed legislation, as I understand it, is very short; it is enabling legislation. The fact is that the Government have taken a political decision not to go ahead with this, and I would like her to explain why.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I cannot explain the reason why because that decision has, of course, not been taken. The noble Lord mentions Avanti, and I pay tribute to Avanti, because the quality of its services has improved enormously recently. At the end of May, cancellations on Avanti were just 1.4%—which is very good among train operating companies—and 93.8% of services were “on time”, meaning within 15 minutes of arrival time. Those figures do compare favourably.

[Lord Geddes (Con)]

Does my noble friend find echoes in the exchanges this afternoon of that old adage of the steam train going up and then down the hill: “I think I can. I think I can. I think I can. I thought I could. I thought I could. I thought I could”?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Most certainly.

[Lord Newby (LD)]

My Lords, I think the Minister said in an earlier answer that the Government planned to bring forward a Bill when parliamentary time allowed. Does she accept that there is virtually no legislation in the Commons at the minute? The Commons finished last week, or the week before, at 2.37 pm, before we had hardly started. There is parliamentary time. It is a short Bill. Frankly, that is not a reason or an excuse; it is a smokescreen.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I do not want to be the one to remind the noble Lord that there are two Houses in Parliament. Your Lordships’ House actually has quite a lot of legislation going through.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

Does my noble friend agree that there would be more parliamentary time if the Liberals did not table so many amendments, and speak at length on them, at late stages of Bills?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Yes, I do.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, in May 2021, in CP 423, the Government set out their vision for Great British Railways:

“Under single national leadership, our railways will be more agile: able to react quicker, spot opportunities, make common-sense choices, and use the kind of operational flexibilities normal in most organisations, but difficult or impossible in the current contractual spider’s web”.


Given the delay since then, are the Government still committed to this vision, or do they accept the ongoing chaos that is the national railway today?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The Government remain committed to that mission. Indeed, so much of what we are doing with the railways at the moment is in pursuit of that mission. For example, the Rail Minister has asked the Great British Railways transition team to look at simplification of the railways—at how to simplify the complex rules and processes which exist in rail and which do not need to. That process will be completed later this year.

Road Vehicles (Authorised Weight) (Amendment) Regulations 2023

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Monday 19th June 2023 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 26 April be approved. Considered in Grand Committee on 13 June.

Motion agreed.

Strategic Highways Company (Name Change and Consequential Amendments) Regulations 2023

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Tuesday 13th June 2023 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 24 April be approved.

Relevant document: 38th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee. Considered in Grand Committee on 5 June.

Motion agreed.

Road Vehicles (Authorised Weight) (Amendment) Regulations 2023

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Tuesday 13th June 2023 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Road Vehicles (Authorised Weight) (Amendment) Regulations 2023.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, these draft regulations were published on 23 January and laid before Parliament on 26 April. They will be made under powers conferred by Sections 41(1), (2)(d), (3) and (5) of the Road Traffic Act 1988.

The highest greenhouse gas-emitting sector of the economy is transport, with road freight making a significant contribution to those emissions. In 2021, heavy goods vehicles produced 20% of greenhouse gas emissions from domestic transport. Shifting towards cleaner types of vehicles and fuels is therefore vital if emissions from this sector are to be brought down in line with the 2050 net-zero goal.

These regulations implement increases in weight limits for certain alternatively fuelled or zero-emission vehicles. The weight limit increase is up to a maximum of one tonne for an alternatively fuelled vehicle and a flat two tonnes for a zero-emission vehicle. In all cases, the maximum weights for individual axles will remain unchanged.

The vehicle types that are having their weights changed by this regulation include articulated lorries and road train combinations with five or six axles, normally limited to 40 tonnes, and four-axle combinations, normally limited to 36 or 38 tonnes. No additional weight allowance will apply to the heaviest articulated lorry and road train combinations of 44 tonnes or four-axle motor vehicles of 32 tonnes. As the noble Baronesses know, those are the standard limits and types of vehicle.

These regulations will also apply to certain smaller zero-emission lorries with two or three axles and zero-emission three-axle articulated buses. Alternatively fuelled versions of these types can already operate at up to one tonne above the normal limits.

A vehicle’s power train consists of the components which generate power and then transmit it to the road to move the vehicle. Alternatively fuelled or zero-emission heavy goods vehicles may have a heavier power train compared to traditionally fuelled, heavy goods vehicles with internal combustion engines. For example, they may be fuelled by a gas stored in a pressurised fuel tank or they might use batteries. These components can be significantly heavier than a conventional petrol or diesel fuel tank and combustion engine used in an equivalent vehicle.

The typically heavier power trains of these vehicles means that, under the current vehicle weight limit rules, they may have to carry a reduced amount of cargo compared to an equivalent fossil-fuelled vehicle in order not to breach the weight limit. The higher weight of the empty vehicle essentially acts as a payload penalty. This decreases the commercial viability of these new types of cleaner vehicles, as more vehicles may be required to move the same amounts of cargo or they may just be restricted to moving lighter loads.

These regulations increase the maximum permitted weight for the relevant zero-emission vehicles by a flat two tonnes. That is most appropriate for a zero-emission vehicle, because the weight of the power train is usually significantly more than two tonnes. The weight limit increase for alternatively fuelled vehicles is up to one tonne, because it depends on the actual extra weight of the power train. That will be assessed and put into what I think is called the ministry certificate—the little chitty that goes inside the lorry and basically tells enforcers how much weight that lorry can take. It is key that these two things are different and are considered differently, because they take into account the variations and different features of the power trains of these cleaner vehicles.

However, the weight limit does not apply beyond the existing maximum for a six-axle vehicle of 44 tonnes. These vehicles are therefore within the current normal limits for infrastructure, such as roads and bridges. We see no reason why they cannot freely circulate on the road network. Furthermore, the per-axle weight is also not being changed because, if it is, one would see increased road wear and deterioration. It is also worth pointing out that operators in the European Union also have that flexibility and are using their vehicles when it comes to cabotage movements in the UK already, and there have been no significant issues.

There was a public consultation on this draft instrument, which ran from July to September 2021. There were 92 responses, with 59% in favour and 6% opposed, the remainder being “don’t know”. We obviously looked at the rationale and concluded that we were content to go ahead with that.

The only other thing to point out about the statutory instrument is that the regulations will include a requirement for the Secretary of State for Transport to conduct a review of them on a five-yearly basis, because there will be a rapid development in technology and they may not be appropriate in five years, for whatever reason. It is important to include that—but, otherwise, I see this as fairly straightforward, and I beg to move.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her explanation. I understand the need for these changes for practical reasons, to develop and enable the rollout of the new generation of HGVs. I also realise that, as the Minister referred to just now, this measure is part of our international obligation derived from the TCA, if we want our goods vehicles to be able to operate abroad. But the Minister would be very surprised if I did not have some questions and comments.

She mentioned articulated buses, but what about non-articulated buses? I remember, about seven or eight years ago, having a ride on a prototype electric bus in the Westminster area, where it was made clear to us that there was a special dispensation for this bus. It was a two-level bus, not a single-storey bus. They made it clear that, because the battery was so heavy, there was a special dispensation to allow this bus to operate in the London area because of weight limits. Technology moves on and batteries may not be as heavy now, but it would be interesting to know where we are, because an awful lot of electric buses are being ordered at this moment.

That leads me on to an obvious question—to ask the Minister what we are talking about in terms of the number of goods vehicles, at which this is largely aimed, on our roads at the moment. Several paragraphs in the Explanatory Memorandum talk about this being the early stages of development, but we hope that this development is going to roll out very quickly, and it would be a good thing to have some kind of measure of what is happening at the moment. There will be—and this is severely underplayed in the Explanatory Memorandum —a cumulative impact on road structures, which are bad enough already in Britain. People are always complaining about the potholes and road surfaces, and there will be an impact on them.

Were the views of National Highways sought? Obviously, this will have an impact on its finances. Despite its name, National Highways is not in charge of motorways in Scotland and Wales, so were the views of the devolved Administrations sought? Looking at paragraph 10.4 of the Explanatory Memorandum, I think they probably were not asked. Of course, local authorities are in charge of local roads, and I am also interested in their responses about the impact of vehicles such as this on their road surfaces. The roads in the local area around a heavy goods vehicle depot are going to get quite a pasting over time.

I note that the consultation was two years ago. Why has there been a delay this long? Bits of the Explanatory Memorandum sound a bit out of date. It talks about the technology being in an “early stage”, but things have moved on a lot since then. However, in paragraph 12.3, the EM mentions

“potential changes in accident severity”.

This is a very serious issue, because heavier vehicles are more likely to kill when involved in an accident. The EM suggests, obliquely, the potential need for additional training and familiarisation, which could have a financial impact for businesses. Has any thought been given to formalising the need for additional training for the drivers of these bigger vehicles?

Before I move to my final point, I will mention the issue of road surfaces. I am stretching this a little, but I am sure the Minister saw coverage of the collapse of a multi-storey car park in America. That story led to a debate in the press about the impact of heavier vehicles—in that case, it was obviously cars and small vans. There will be a case for looking at and reinforcing our infrastructure. The Minister is clearly aware of it because she referred to the impact on bridges. Has the department looked at the impact on multi-storey car parks? Is there a programme to ensure that, before this technology is rolled out to a large percentage of people, the safety of car parks is reassessed?

My final point is that the impact on road surfaces and the possible training implications of this measure mean that there should have been an impact assessment and consultation with the devolved Administrations.

--- Later in debate ---

Lastly, when these regulations were discussed in the other place, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport referred to the development of lighter technology which would not impose the additional weight burdens on our roads. He did not give any timescales for these improvements. I appreciate that with any technology, it is difficult to estimate how quickly it will develop significantly, but can the Minister give us any further information about discussions between the DfT and the industry in relation to developments in this respect?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am grateful to both noble Baronesses for their contributions to the debate this evening. I will answer as many of their questions as I possibly can although I am already aware that there is one or two I cannot. Therefore, as ever, a letter will be forthcoming.

I do not have any information on the first issue that the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, raised about the double decker bus that she went on. They are not covered by these regulations. It is quite interesting that, in my many years as buses Minister, it was not something that came up in my discussions. I am assuming that the issue has been fixed and that the batteries are sufficiently light such that they fall under the standard regulations. If that is not the case, I will write to the noble Baroness.

One of the other things worth mentioning—this is where the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, finished—is the question of where we are and where we are going to be. It is still very early doors on this. There are not significant numbers of these vehicles circulating. We are trying to make a small change to encourage more people to take them up. I am sure that the noble Baroness has seen things such as the zero-emission road freight demonstrators, into which we are investing £200 million. Those sorts of things are the trials to encourage these sorts of vehicles to take to the road. It is very early in their development but we think that we are getting slightly ahead of the game by ensuring that this is in place. There are some logistics companies operating their own trials with these kinds of vehicles because they can charge them within their depots. I suspect that, in five years’ time, when we do the post-implementation review, we will be able to establish with greater certainty what the demand and pick-up rate look like.

It is also the case that this does not apply to vehicles that normally operate at 44 tonnes because, as the noble Baroness will know, that is the standard in the industry. It does have slight limitations but that limitation is not really fundamental in that we are not going to go over 44 tonnes. This means that the issues raised about increased road wear, the impact on bridges and training generally fall away, to my mind: the roads and bridges that we have already deal with 44 tonnes and these are all going to be less than 44 tonnes. The increase in road wear correlates to a one-fourth power of the weight on the axles: whatever the weight of the axle, you get a times four increase, or a power of four increase, in terms of the road wear. Again, though, we are not changing the weight there.

The point is that we are not going over the current limitations and, as I said at the outset, the numbers of these are still very small in the context of the tens of thousands of trucks that are out there. I do not see that there is a significant case for the wear and tear of roads; nor do I see that there would be significant issues for bridges at all because there will be plenty of other trucks going over that are heavier.

In terms of training, any trucker who is driving one of these new trucks will have been trained up to 44 tonnes anyway. They will probably need new training to operate the vehicle but we do not anticipate that there will be a significant change for driving. They will be used to driving heavier trucks and will probably have been doing it for a long time.

In terms of the infrastructure rollout, it is the case that goods vehicles are slightly behind the private car sector. As one can imagine, they are much more difficult to decarbonise. However, we are pushing forward and working with the industry in various forums that we have set up, such as the Freight Energy Forum, to think about what sort of infrastructure the industry needs and where it is going to need it. We will publish a zero-emission HGV infrastructure strategy in due course; that is being worked on at this moment in time. That will set out how we will charge the vehicles when we get them on the road.

I do not agree that there was a delay in bringing forward this SI. While the consultation was at the end of summer in 2021, there would have been analysis of the consultation and ministerial decision-making, then you get into the world of pain that is getting lawyers drafting and figuring out which law they will be drafting against. Statutory instruments take a surprisingly long time from the moment of intention—saying, “Yes, let’s do this—to actually bringing it before the House. We have to make sure that they are right. I am always slightly surprised but, actually, this is a “business as usual” instrument. I do not think that there is a pressing need for it because it is not as if we have thousands of these vehicles desperate to go on the road. However, doing this is worth while. I am grateful for the support of both noble Baronesses for this instrument.

Motion agreed.

Renewable Transport Fuel Obligation

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Tuesday 13th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Walmsley]

To ask His Majesty’s Government when they intend next to review the renewable transport fuel obligation.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, the department continually keeps the renewable transport fuel obligation under review to ensure that it delivers cost-effective emission reductions and is best placed to meet our carbon targets.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

I thank the Minister for her information, but at the last estimate over 107,000 hectares of land in the UK grew crops for biofuels—land that could have fed 3.5 million people. First, given the pressure on land, the need for greater UK food security and the global shortage of cereal crops caused by the war in Ukraine, will the Government end biofuel production from food crops in the UK? Secondly, on imported biofuels, will the Government ensure that only biofuels produced from waste, agricultural or otherwise, are imported for use in the UK?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The Government have incredibly high standards of sustainability for the fuels that we allow under the renewable transport fuel obligation. As I am sure the noble Baroness is aware, many of the crops grown for biofuels are not fit for human consumption. However, they are grown because they are useful not only for biofuels but for animal feedstock. There is a very careful balance to be struck. The Government are well aware of the land use issue and the need to be able to develop enough human-supporting crops. As I say, we keep all of this under review.

[Lord Ravensdale (CB)]

My Lords, I declare my interests in the register. I have two questions. First, what progress is being made with regulations to enable support for nuclear-derived fuels and recycled carbon fuels within the RTFO following the recent amendment to the Energy Bill? Secondly, quota-based systems such as the RTFO are being implemented in other countries for the purposes of decarbonising ammonia and fertiliser production. What plans do the Government have for similar schemes to clean up ammonia?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

As the noble Lord will be aware, the Energy Bill is currently working its way through the other place. I am very pleased that we were able to get the amendment for recycled carbon and nuclear-derived fuels, as it goes into primary legislation. We are working concurrently on the secondary legislation to bring that into effect as it is needed and into the various schemes. On ammonia and various other renewable fuels, we are looking very carefully across the entire suite of low-carbon fuels. The Department for Transport will be publishing a low-carbon fuel strategy later this year.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, the logistics sector is calling for a stronger partnership with government over the use of low-carbon fuels. What arrangements will the Government put in place with the logistics industry for this to happen, including the much-promised publication and delivery of a low-carbon fuel strategy? It was promised last year and then at the end of this year. When will that be published?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

As I mentioned in the previous answer, it will be published later this year. The low-carbon fuel strategy is incredibly important. We have been working very closely with the freight and logistics sectors to understand their needs in terms of decarbonisation. For example, we have invested £200 million in the zero-emission road freight demonstration programme. An enormous amount of work is going on in this area. The low-carbon fuel strategy is but one of those things.

[Baroness Boycott (CB)]

My Lords, I refer back to the original Question asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley. We import 90% of the fuel we use for transport. It is coming from land that could be used to grow food. Last year we imported crops from Ukraine that were then used in biofuels in this country. It is a question of due diligence. Can the Minister reassure the House that we are genuinely using stuff that would otherwise be wasted?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I agree that there is an issue of due diligence here. The Government are always willing to hear from anyone who has any insight as to crops or biological items that may be coming from places that are not within the sustainability criteria. It is not fair to say that renewable fuels come from biogenic materials. It is the case that biofuels from waste represent 76% of the renewable fuels supplied; for example, 93% of all biodiesel comes from used cooking oil, which has very few other uses. While I accept that we need to look at crops and whether they are for human consumption or not—obviously, the latter is the one we focus on—we need to recognise that alternative sources of bioethanol are fairly thin on the ground at the moment.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, the Renewable Transport Fuel Obligations Order 2007, as amended, says in Article 1A:

“The Secretary of State must from time to time … carry out a review of the regulatory provision contained in this Order; and … publish a report setting out the conclusions of the review … The first report must be published before 15th April 2023”.


Now, I think that date has passed. Has such a report been published? I spent time with my friend Google this morning, and after two hours, could not find it, but with the messy way our legislation is formed, I may have missed it. If it has not been published, why not? It is crucial that commitments such as this are honoured.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I agree with the noble Lord, and I accept that it should have been published by 15 April. It is in its very final stages of preparation and will be published as soon as possible. There is an important component of this post-implementation review: there will be an opportunity for feedback on the scheme as it currently exists. Therefore, I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, and anyone else with an interest will look at the post-implementation review, consider various reports which have recently come into the public domain, and think carefully about how we can improve the scheme. We are always looking for improvements, we keep the scheme under review, and I am willing to keep an open mind.

[Lord Lucas (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that, looking at the long term and particularly our 30 by 30 commitment on land use, we should not be devoting agricultural crops to vehicle fuels—certainly not ordinary vehicle fuels—and that anything we can get from waste should be directed at aviation and other sectors where it is extremely difficult to create substitutes, rather than ordinary domestic road vehicles?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The noble Lord is right. It is the case that the road vehicle sector is at a transition moment, as we go to battery electric and hydrogen fuel cells, but we can use it in this transition period. We are focused on using things such as recycled carbon fuels for sustainable aviation fuels, because we see that as a key way to decarbonise sectors that are much harder to abate, such as aviation. We will be looking at similar technology for maritime, if that exists.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, long-haul flying looks to be the most challenging sector to decarbonise. It is likely that sustainable aviation fuels will have a major role in doing that. Will the Minister commit to introducing a price stability mechanism, to encourage the development of a UK-based sustainable aviation fuel industry, so that we have the jobs and investment coming to this country, rather than going to our competitors overseas, as it looks like at the moment?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The Government have already recognised the strong case for sustainable aviation fuel for all types of flying, whether short- or long-haul. We will implement a sustainable aviation fuel mandate requiring operators to use 10% SAF by 2030, which acts as a pull on the market. Therefore, we are considering what else needs to be done to make SAF plant projects in the UK investible. This will not be a government-sponsored contract for difference as the SAF mandate does an awful lot of the heavy lifting, but we are working very closely with industry to look at an industry-led solution to improve the revenue certainty when it comes to SAF.

[Lord Watts (Lab)]

My Lords, is it not the case that this small island is crying out for a land strategy policy, and that the House of Lords Land Use in England Committee recommended that we have the strategy and resources for it, and that all departments take part? Does the Minister share my disappointment that this is not happening?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I understand that it is happening, but I am slightly more excited by the biomass strategy, which will look at all the elements of biomass—what their potential uses are for our domestic environmental goals but also how they interact with our land-based goals. Therefore, we will also have the opportunity to look at our sustainability criteria, and how they can be strengthened in the context of looking at land strategy.

Strategic Highways Company (Name Change and Consequential Amendments) Regulations 2023

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Monday 5th June 2023 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Strategic Highways Company (Name Change and Consequential Amendments) Regulations 2023

Relevant document: 38th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, these draft regulations were laid before Parliament on 24 April. They make consequential changes to five pieces of legislation to reflect the change in name for the strategic highways company from Highways England to National Highways.

The change in name was announced in August 2021. National Highways has completed a range of administrative, legal and digital changes to implement its name. The name National Highways better reflects the company’s focus on delivering the Government’s roads investment programme while continuing to set highways standards for the whole of the UK. It also makes clear the distinction between local roads, which are the responsibility of local authorities, and the strategic road network, for which National Highways is responsible.

The legislation to be amended was identified by a legal analysis of the almost 100 references in legislation to the previous name, Highways England. A large number of references do not require amendment. These are development consent orders or other local orders that are similar in nature, such as traffic orders. These orders often do not have an express expiry date but are of limited application and cease to have any practical effect once an action or development is complete. Most of these entries reference National Highways’ company number, which also further reduces any risk.

As a result, just five pieces of legislation were identified for amendment via this SI. They are where there is the most risk of ambiguity or confusion arising over time, should the old name remain. The legislation is as follows: first, the Appointment of a Strategic Highways Company Order 2015; secondly, the Infrastructure Act 2015 (Strategic Highways Companies) (Consequential, Transitional and Savings Provisions) Regulations 2015; thirdly, the Equality Act 2010; fourthly, the Equality Act 2010 (Specific Duties and Public Authorities) Regulations 2017; and, finally, the Local Transport Act 2008.

Where possible, the amendments will future-proof the legislation against any future name changes that may occur. This is being done for three of the five pieces of legislation being amended by inserting a reference to:

“A strategic highways company appointed under section 1 of the Infrastructure Act 2015”,


instead of a potentially time-limited reference to National Highways.

To conclude, these draft regulations will make consequential changes to a small number of references to Highways England, identified by a legal analysis as those most at risk of ambiguity or confusion over time. Where possible, the amended wording has been future-proofed. I beg to move.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for introducing these very interesting draft regulations. I have a few questions to ask her, which I am sure she will not be surprised about.

The main question is: how much is this change going to cost? It obviously has costs in regulation time, but I imagine that there are signs all around the network saying how clever the Highways Agency is. It will have to have new signs there and on much other documentation, so it would be nice to know how much all this is going to cost.

My other main question relates to the purpose of changing the name of the Highways England Company to National Highways. Which nation are we talking about? Is it the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland? Is it Great Britain—in other words, England, Scotland and Wales? Is it England and Wales, or what? There seem to be one or two differences in the references in the Schedule referred to in these regulations.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness and noble Lord who have contributed to the debate, and to the Minister for her clear explanation, at least of the purpose of the regulations. On the face of it, as the noble Baroness, Lady Humphreys, said, this is a fairly straightforward process of updating a number of pieces of legislation with the current name of National Highways, and we would not want to object to the statutory instrument from that point of view.

However, I pick up on some of the questions that have been asked previously but on which I could not trace any detailed answer from Ministers in the other place or your Lordships’ House. First, my noble friend Lord Berkeley referred to the change from Highways England and set out some of the confusion that might arise because different descriptions are used in different pieces of legislation. In different countries of the UK, different names apply. That is very confusing. The noble Baroness, Lady Humphreys, also referred to that. It seems blindingly obvious to me that National Highways England would have been a better name. She also referred to the rationale for the change being rather weak. I agreed with that when I read the explanation.

The Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee suggested that the Minister may wish to explain the name, given that “national” is confusing for an organisation focused on only one nation of the UK. I hope the Minister will give us a full explanation so that we can all understand how it applies to different pieces of highways legislation that reflect different parts of the UK.

Secondly, it was my experience in local government that the new name of the agency is not commonly known, resulting in the term Highways England still being in very common usage. Do the Government intend to do anything further to communicate the change of name once the situation between the four nations has been clarified?

The regulations have the stated aim of future-proofing the legislation against any future name changes. Does the Minister have any plans to update other legislation to future-proof against potential name changes of other bodies? We have heard a couple of suggestions: we might have National Highways Wales or National Highways Scotland. Your Lordships will appreciate that I ask this question because we all know that name changes and subsequent rebranding come at considerable cost. The Minister referred to digital, legal, administrative and communication costs, and so on, and my noble friend Lord Berkeley also referred to them.

Lastly, I note that the Minister said that road traffic orders will not be changed. Presumably, this means that local authorities need have no concerns about any legal challenges that might arise as a result of the fact that the name of the agency has now changed. Those are my questions; I thank the Minister.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, I am enormously grateful for noble Lords’ contributions in this brief debate on this statutory instrument. I will do my best to answer their questions and perhaps address some of the ideas that have come forward in this Grand Committee about other names that might have been used; I am afraid that I do not agree with noble Lords there.

I turn first to cost, which was mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley. National Highways met the cost of the name change from within its budget and kept costs to a minimum. There has been no “big bang” rebranding, as there was never intended to be and there does not need to be. Existing items and assets such as uniforms and fleet vehicles will continue to use the old branding until they reach their end of life. We estimate the total cost of the change to be around £312,000.

The noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, asked whether it matters that this change is not commonly known. From my experience in my several years as Roads Minister, it is becoming known and will feed out into the system. It is not the end of the world if somebody calls National Highways “Highways England”. Indeed, this leads back to the rationale for this statutory instrument. It does not bring about the name change; the name change happened at Companies House.

The noble Baroness, Lady Humphreys, talked about a new organisation. There is no new organisation. Exactly the same organisation exists, with exactly the same company number as exists in many long-term contracts and other such things that are held by the organisation. I assure the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, that things like TROs—traffic regulation orders—DCOs and other local orders will continue to be valid.

Basically, the legal assessment is that it is clear from Companies House that the name change has been made. Let us project ourselves 15 or 20 years down the road to when some of your Lordships—including me—are perhaps no longer in our roles. People might say, “Hang on a minute, what’s this Highways England?” That is why we are doing this; it is for many years hence rather than for now. We do not believe that there is any significant risk of there being legal challenges because the name change sits in Companies House and will say “formerly known as Highways England” there. So that exists, but one never knows what will happen in the future.

I turn back to the rationale for doing this, which brings in many of the questions asked by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley—indeed, by all speakers. Noble Lords asked, “Why did you do it? Surely Highways England does England”. That is not right, which is the point that we were trying to get across in the Explanatory Memorandum and that I tried to get across in my opening remarks. National Highways does a large number of things and is hugely respected. It has a different remit in different pieces of legislation. However, it does an awful lot of non-statutory work as well.

For example, I am perfectly comfortable calling National Highways “national” because it develops highway standards that are used across the UK. It is leading the way on the delivery of greener roads; that information is used by all parts of the UK. It is also developing road infrastructure standards for the connected and autonomous era, which refers to self-driving vehicles. Again, that sort of work will be used throughout the UK. I am not suggesting at all that, any minute now, National Highways will take over the strategic road network—or anything else—in Wales or Scotland. I am saying that what it does and has done for a long time is work closely with the devolved Administrations to ensure that we do not have completely different standards in different parts of the United Kingdom because, clearly, that would not be particularly positive.

Again, this is all about collaboration when it comes to strategic roads, which do not end at a specific border. It is the case that the A1 switches over to Transport Scotland as it crosses the border but that does not mean that we have to dismiss the work that National Highways does in many other really important statutory and non-statutory areas and suddenly get a bit funny about the name. That is why “National Highways England” does not work. It is not about just England; that is the whole point.

As I have explained, there is no change to National Highways’ remit or Welsh devolution and no new organisation. The only thing that is new is the name. We are bringing this measure in purely so that, many years down the track and in the mists of time, people do not get confused when they look at something that says “Highways England” and wonder. We just want to make sure that that is not the case.

There are two pieces of legislation that we have been unable to future-proof. Should National Highways change its name again—I very much hope that it does not—those two pieces of legislation would need to be amended. However, as I say, I suspect that the chances of that happening are relatively limited.

[Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)]

Before the Minister sits down, can I ask about the questions that we raised on Scotland and Wales? Will National Highways have a different remit in those nations of the UK? I understand the point about it doing certain things across the UK—the Minister mentioned highway standards, greener roads and infrastructure standards—but it will presumably have different roles for the management of roads in Wales and Scotland than it has in England. That is where confusion is likely to occur. Will we end up having more secondary legislation that clearly sets that out?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

It has absolutely no role in the management of roads in Scotland and Wales. It never has had and never will have. I commend this instrument to the Committee.

Motion agreed.

Driving Licences

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Monday 5th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Naseby]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what plans they have to introduce a graduated driving licence or other restrictions on newly qualified drivers.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, every death or serious injury on our roads is a tragedy, and we continue to work tirelessly to improve road safety for all users. Our broad approach to improving safety for new and novice drivers includes new technology and improving education while reinforcing vital road safety messages through our THINK! campaign. There are not any current plans to introduce driving licence restrictions on newly qualified drivers.

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

My Lords, I am greatly relieved to hear that Answer from my noble friend, because there are numerous rumours going round. I am sure young people will be greatly reassured. Nevertheless, is she aware of the other real problem that young people face today: that it is very difficult to get a test date when you are ready to take it? Is she aware that there are sellers out there using bots to hoover up at least a quarter of all the exam slots and reselling them to learners desperate to take their test? Furthermore, there appear to be dozens of websites offering to find learners earlier booking slots for a fee as high as £300. Can my noble friend look closely at this abuse of the situation and take the appropriate action?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for raising that. When I was Roads Minister until fairly recently, I worked very closely with DVSA to ensure that those bots cannot get access to the booking system. I will take his comments back and ensure that DVSA is doing all it can to make sure that those slots are not being used by other people. At the moment, there are about half a million people already booked into slots, and there are about 44,000 slots available in the next 24 weeks. The key to all this—it loops back into the road safety element of this Question—is that we must ensure that drivers are ready to take their tests. At the moment, fewer than 50% pass, so the number one message for learner drivers must be: be ready and then you will be able to pass your test and drive with confidence.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, if it takes up to a year after you have applied for a test to get one, it is not surprising that people apply early, because they will have to practise driving in the long period before they get to the test. Can the Minister confirm that the only way to get a test quickly is if you are rich and can afford a couple of hundred quid to bribe one of these middle people?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am certainly not going to confirm that, because, as I have said, I have worked closely with DVSA to ensure that we limit that as far as possible. Indeed, I do not believe that the reselling of tests is a huge problem. Again, working with DVSA, we have created over 900,000 more slots—37,000 per month—to try to get as many people through as possible. As I have said, if people are better prepared, they will pass first time and will not need a secondary test.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

Would my noble friend accept that road safety does not depend just upon drivers? Would she consider recommending to the Government, following the example of Paris, a ban on these wretched electric scooters?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I agree with my noble friend that road safety does not only require the safety of drivers. Indeed, that is why the Government adopt the safe system approach, which looks at drivers, vehicles on the road and the road itself. The Government are, of course, looking at e-scooter safety. We are analysing the evidence and will come forward with further proposals soon.

[Lord Trefgarne (Con)]

My Lords, are there any plans to restrict older people in this particular regard, or can we go on driving for ever?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

We have no current plans to restrict anybody on the basis of age. However, as my noble friend will agree, sometimes some people will feel that they are no longer able to drive, or their doctor may recommend that they should no longer drive. In that case, one is legally required to get in touch with the DVLA and have one’s licence revoked.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, every year over 400 young people, predominantly male, are killed or seriously injured on our roads. To go back to the beginning of the Question, probationary periods are common across the world for new drivers. Brake, the Parliamentary Advisory Council for Transport Safety and the insurers themselves support probationary periods with some restrictions. In the UK, we use them for motorcycles and large vehicles, so why are we not looking at using them for car drivers?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

At the moment, the Government are undertaking an enormous research project in this area because we feel that we need the evidence base. If one looks across all the different countries where they have some sort of limits on licensing, there is no one size fits all; some countries put limits on before driving test are taken in terms of the amount of time one has to learn, while other countries decide to place certain restrictions post the test. We are doing a research project called Driver2020 and are investing £2 million in it; it kicked off in 2019 and involves 28,000 new and novice drivers. We are testing five different interventions to find out what we think might work in the future.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister mentioned age. I am sure I am right in saying that a big proportion of people taking the test are age 17, 18 and 19, and many of them will need a driving licence to find employment, or at least it will be very helpful to them when they have one. What alarms me, among other things, about this long waiting list—the Minister has already told us that more than half of the people taking tests have to do it twice at least—is just how much the average cost is to a 17, 18 or 19 year-old, with top-up lessons if it is a prolonged period waiting for a test. Just how much does it cost? It is really alarming if there is a barrier to people simply on the basis of not being able to afford to do it.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I accept that there is a cost to driving, to car ownership and to ensuring that one is safe on the roads in respect of one’s responsibility to other people. We believe that the time taken to ensure that one is fully trained is important. That is why the second piece of research that we are doing is around a graduated learning scheme where we have asked the Driving Instructors Association to explore whether we can introduce a modular approach to learning. That will help all candidates go through the process and become safe drivers, and it may help them to minimise the costs as they learn the right skills at the right time.

[Baroness O'Loan (CB)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that in Northern Ireland there is a system in which drivers who pass their tests are required to display restricted plates and are restricted to driving below 45 miles per hour? Is she also aware that the biggest barrier to young people getting into a car and driving is the cost of insurance, which is prohibitive?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am aware that some form of graduated driving licence has been introduced in Northern Ireland. In Great Britain, we also have a probationary scheme that falls under the new drivers Act, whereby if any new driver gets six points within the first two years, they have their licence taken away and must take their test again. We are working with the industry on insurance. There may be something helpful around telematics in that regard. I do accept that insurance for young drivers is more expensive, and that is because they can often be riskier drivers.

[Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)]

My Lords, since 2018 learner drivers have been permitted to take motorway driving lessons with approved driving instructors, but few make use of this rule change. According to a recent AA survey, 83% of drivers say they have never seen a learner on the motorway. Has the department made an assessment of how many driving schools offer motorway lessons, and does the Minister believe that increasing the availability of these would better prepare learner drivers?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The noble Baroness raises a very important point, and that leads back into the graduated learning scheme that we are looking at to ensure that new drivers have the opportunity to try out all sorts of different schemes. We are also looking at one of the interventions from the Driver2020 research, which is a logbook that will record the time and type of driving, including motorway driving. But there are some parts of the country where there are no motorways, so I think it is really important that all driving instructors think about the types of roads they are taking their candidates on to ensure variety.

[Lord Cromwell (CB)]

Is the noble Baroness aware that a root cause of the difficulty of getting a test is that the examiners, who are public servants, are all leaving to get better-paid jobs elsewhere?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

It is the case that there have been some issues regarding retention at DVSA. However, I would also say that DVSA is looking to recruit an extra 300 driving examiners. We are looking at all of this carefully to ensure we have the full cohort of driving examiners available.

Trains: Wifi Provision for Passengers

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Thursday 25th May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley]

To ask His Majesty’s Government whether they plan to advise franchise train operators to discontinue the provision of Wi-Fi for passengers on their trains.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, the way we currently operate our railways is not financially sustainable. It is unfair to continue to ask taxpayers to foot the bill, which is why reforms are essential. Therefore, it is only right that we work with operators to review whether the current service delivers the best possible value for money. However, no decisions have been taken.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

I am grateful to the Minister for that Answer. She will be aware that, I think, most train operators already have wifi in all their trains for management and revenue purposes. How much money would be saved by the Treasury if they removed access to wifi from the passengers?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I will revert to where I started on this. No decisions have been taken. As part of the business planning process, we have asked the train operating companies to look again at the services provided and to come up with a business case which sets out the benefits to passengers and the costs of providing that service. However, usage of wifi on trains is actually quite low. It is available from all train operating companies but is not available on all trains.

[Lord Swire (Con)]

One of the reasons that wifi use on trains is perhaps a little low, as my noble friend says, is because it is so hit and miss. I have been involved in an energetic correspondence with Mr Mark Hopwood, the managing director of GWR. I say energetic. It is energetic on my part, but less energetic perhaps on his; an acknowledgement would be a start and an answer even better. The truth is that we have a terrible problem in this country with productivity, and train time is dead time. You can get wifi on a plane and on a boat; surely you should be able to get reliable wifi on trains. If the problem is with Network Rail, then we really need to look at the relationship we have with the train operators, Network Rail and the whole infrastructure.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The wifi on trains usually runs off the same 4G and 5G system that my noble friend will have on his smartphone, so sometimes there can be reliability issues. It also depends on how many people are using the wifi on the train. It is there for email and other low data usage requirements. It is not really there for streaming, but I accept that sometimes the bandwidth can be a little challenging.

[Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)]

My Lords, UK rail passengers already suffer the most expensive rail fares in Europe. Surely they should expect to receive the basics—a seat, working toilets and catering—but too often this is not the case, even on long journeys. Now the Government are planning to advise train operators to remove wifi so passengers will not be able to use their journey time to work. Are the Government stuck in the 19th century? When will His Majesty’s Government recognise that to tackle the climate emergency we need better public transport, not worse?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Of course, the Government regularly survey passengers to find out what they really appreciate about the railways such as reliability, good services, punctuality and clean services. Actually, wifi is very low down on the list of priorities.

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I can say only what the evidence is from asking passengers. We have asked the train operating companies to look at the provision of wifi, to establish a business case which sets out the benefits to passengers—how much they need it, those who perhaps are unable to use a smartphone on 4G or 5G for example—and then to revert.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, will my noble friend take this as a response to her survey? Those of us who purchase our tickets electronically require wifi to both board and travel on the train. How am I going to be permitted legally to travel if there is no wifi to demonstrate that I have purchased a ticket?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I would hope that my noble friend would have got the ticket in the wallet on her phone because she would have needed it to go through the station anyway. Free wifi will remain available at stations and as I say, no decisions have been taken. We have asked the train operating companies to prepare business cases.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

My Lords, if the wifi is taken off our unreliable Avanti trains, how will I be able to let the Whips’ Office know that I will be missing a three-line Whip? Is this not another example of the pettifogging interference in the railway industry by civil servants, many of whom know nothing about it but love playing trains in their spare time? Is this not yet another example of those in her department who know the price of everything and the value of nothing?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I for one would be very disappointed if the noble Lord were unable to vote. I will take up the issue of where the Government are at the moment. Prior to the pandemic there was no need for any subsidy in operating the railways. There were zero subsidies, so revenues matched the costs. Noble Lords will all know that, since the pandemic, revenues have fallen and some revenues have shifted to the weekend and to more leisure travel. Last year the taxpayer had to subsidise the trains to the tune of £2.85 billion. That is unsustainable. To be a responsible Government, we have to look at all elements of our train services to ensure that they match demand and that the services we are providing and the facilities on them meet the needs of passengers.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister frequently tells us that the taxpayer cannot be expected to subsidise the railways because relatively few people use them. Do the Government acknowledge that we all benefit—every single one of us—from the use of the railways because each train that travels carries many hundreds of passengers who would otherwise be clogging up our already congested roads?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I do not think I can necessarily disagree with the noble Baroness, but that is a very absolutist approach and there is some balance to be had here. She says that the Government are not willing to subsidise the railways; we already do. As I have said, £2.85 billion is going in for the services. As I mentioned earlier this week, £44.1 billion is going into control period 7—the highest ever—and that covers all the renewals, the maintenance and the Network Rail operations. That element of it is very significant. That is nearly £9 billion a year that the Government spend, and in addition a further £2.8 billion is spent on subsidising services.

[Viscount Stansgate (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister says that no final decision has been taken, but is she trying to persuade the House that the Government no longer think, in the 21st century in which we live, that wifi should count as an essential service for those of us who use the railways?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The proof is in the pudding—between 10% and 20% of people on trains use the wifi. Most people nowadays use 4G and 5G networks.

[The Earl of Devon (CB)]

The noble Baroness links the unavailability of wifi to the unavailability of 4G and 5G in the areas in which the trains are travelling. Does she directly link the failure of the trains to provide wifi to the failure of Project Gigabit?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

If I knew what Project Gigabit was, I would be able to answer the noble Earl’s question. I will find out and write to him. If there are not-spots for 4G and 5G—or perhaps we should call them no-spots—we really should look at that and ensure that train travellers can use those networks with reliability.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, the Minister has a number of times referred to people using their own 4G or 5G contracts instead, but people who have to really watch their costs in the cost of living crisis are very likely to have capped contracts where the amount of 4G or 5G they use is limited. Given the already eye-watering cost of rail fares and the fact that if you get wifi you are not using that scarce resource you have in your 4G or 5G contract, is this not actually pricing even more people off the railways and making the service available only to the rich?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

As I have said many times, business cases will be drawn up by the train operating companies, and those considerations will be top of mind.

[Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe (Lab)]

Can the noble Baroness let the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, and the House know just what saving would be made if wifi were withdrawn, and what alternatives might be available to keep it running?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Of course, I cannot say that at the moment because there is no plan to completely withdraw all wifi from across the network. That is the whole point. However, once the business cases have been done and there is an agreement as to which wifi might continue and which might not—one might assume that it would be a prerequisite on longer journeys, but I am not going to prejudge the outcome of the business cases—at that stage we will have a better idea of the future economics.

Railways: Trans-Pennine Express

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Taylor of Stevenage]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the rate of cancellations of Trans-Pennine Express trains, and what criteria they are using to consider the renewal of the contract for Trans-Pennine Express.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, for many months we have made it clear to TPE’s management that its services have been unacceptable. Passengers have faced significant disruption and the northern economy has not had the reliable railway it needs. To allow for the reset that passengers need and expect, the Secretary of State has confirmed that TPE will be brought under the DfT’s operator of last resort when the current contract expires on 28 May.

[Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her Answer, which was so prompt that it was given on 17 May, before I had a chance to ask the Question. The appalling service that customers received from TPE highlights again the lack of co-ordination across the privatised rail service—problems that were supposed to be resolved through the implementation of Great British Railways. Now that the Prime Minister has announced that Great British Railways has been scrapped, can the Minister tell us whether industry reports that £52 million has already been spent on it are correct? Is that money now wasted if GBR has been scrapped?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I must have missed the Prime Minister scrapping GBR, because the Secretary of State has set out his ambition for a customer-focused, commercially led industry. The creation of GBR is, of course, the guiding mind for the sector, but it is true that we can get many of the benefits now. The programme is simplifying and rolling out single-leg pricing across the LNER network, and trialling demand-based pricing to ensure that passenger demand is more evenly spread between services. Of course, the GBR transition team is working on the long-term strategy for rail, which will simplify industry practices and explore new opportunities for the private sector.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, TransPennine Express is the fourth train operator to be taken over by the Government in the face of prolonged failure. Although the Minister has outlined some work that can be done in the face of the current situation, Great British Railways in all its aspects cannot be created without full legislation. I understand that the Bill to create GBR is largely drafted, and is short and straight- forward. Why do the Government not just get on with it? If they do not, what do they plan to do instead to deal with the current decline of our railways?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I have already outlined to the noble Baroness some of the things that can be achieved now. The creation of Great British Railways in full does require legislation, which we will progress when parliamentary time allows.

[Lord Clark of Windermere (Lab)]

My Lords, why do the Government not face up to the reality that TransPennine Express is a small player compared with the problem of cancellations on the west coast main line, especially by Avanti? I understand that there were three yesterday morning alone. When can we have a proper mainline service on the west coast?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am not aware of the reasons for those cancellations, but I remind all noble Lords that sometimes cancellations have to happen that are not the fault of the train operating companies. We have worked very closely with Avanti, and we know that the proportion of Avanti-caused cancellations fell from an average of 13.2% in early January to just 1.4% at the end of March. Occasionally, it is not Avanti’s fault, and it is right that it does not take the blame in those circumstances.

[Lord Birt (CB)]

My Lords, disruption on our national rail system is now commonplace. Only yesterday, I took a train to reach Parliament that was exactly 60 minutes late. Recently, my wife and I spent a delightful three weeks holidaying in Japan. We criss-crossed every part of Japan on the Shinkansen, the regional network and the local network, and on every single occasion bar none the train arrived precisely, to the minute, as advertised, and deposited us at our destination exactly to the minute. When will we be able to achieve Japanese levels of reliability on our national rail network?

[A noble Lord]

Never!

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, I hope to take a trip to Japan soon to go and see those fantastic railways. Of course, they are incredible, but they were not built quite at the time that our railways were built. The Government are very focused: reliability is the Secretary of State’s number one priority, aside from safety. That is why we are investing £44.1 billion in our railways in the next control period. Network Rail published its strategic business plans a few days ago, and they are now with the independent regulator, the Office of Rail and Road, for further scrutiny.

[Lord McLoughlin (Con)]

My Lords, I draw attention to my interest in the register as chairman of Transport for the North. While I welcome what the Secretary of State has brought forward, which takes effect next Monday—the operator of TPE being the operator of last resort from next week—does my noble friend agree that it will not necessarily be a silver bullet? Until industrial relations are brought back to reality and a good working relationship with train drivers is accepted, we will still have disrupted services—and the huge amount of money that is presently being spent on the trans-Pennine upgrade.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I absolutely agree with my noble friend. The railways are in a very poor financial place at the moment, with revenues between £50 million and £130 million less than they were before. That is why we must see reform of the railways if they are to have a viable future. That reform can happen only if we get the co-operation of the unions, which I am sure want to ensure a long-term future for their workers. I am grateful for all the work that my noble friend does in the north. The Secretary of State has asked officials to review services across the north to look for performance improvements and delivery certainty, and is looking to work with northern mayors and other stakeholders to make those improvements.

[Lord Watts (Lab)]

My Lords, before the strikes took place, the railway was still a shambles. Can the Minister tell us why every European nation seems to be able to run a train service, while Britain cannot? Is it because the dogma that runs this Government means that they will not look at privatisation and bringing the railway system back into public ownership, like many other countries?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am not wholly sure where the noble Lord gets that evidence from. Certainly, if he goes back to look at the period before industrial action really took hold, he will see that many of the train operating companies were working exactly to contract and better, and therefore getting performance fees. I want to point out as well—I think it is important—that while I absolutely note that some noble Lords will have had trouble travelling recently, those noble Lords who have not, such as me, will not say that they actually had a very good service. But I have had a fantastic service on LNER, on South Western Railway and on Avanti.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

Following what my noble friend has just said, could I just put in a good word for LNER, and encourage noble Lords in all parts of the House to come and explore the glories of Lincoln? They will almost certainly get there on time, and get back on time, unless there is a strike.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My noble friend has hit the nail on the head. It is likely that any noble Lord will get there and get back on time, unless there is a strike.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, could the Minister persuade the Prime Minister to use the railways himself a little bit more often? We know that he flies around the country rather a lot. I think if he were to do so, particularly in visiting his constituency, then services to Northallerton and Thirsk would improve very considerably.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am sure that the Prime Minister is well aware of what is going on on our railways, because one of the key priorities of the Department for Transport is to make sure that they run reliably, and that in the future we have a reformed railway which services all passengers, not just the Prime Minister.

[Lord Inglewood (Non-Afl)]

Does the Minister agree that probably the single thing that could best bring forward levelling up to the north of England would be to get a decent railway system in place, operating so that people can travel on it with confidence?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Obviously, there are many strands to what is a broad levelling-up ambition, but I agree that we must focus on investing in our railways in the north. That is why HS2 is proceeding and why we are spending £44.1 billion on the traditional infrastructure. It is very important that we maintain what we have to make sure that reliability, to the north and indeed all parts of the UK, is good.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, what is the purpose of Transport Ministers? All they seem to do is read out the excuses from the railway companies, then shovel lots of money into them, and then cancel their contracts because they are not performing. Is it not about time that Transport Ministers did what they ought to do and take control of the railways —take it into public ownership?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Nationalisation is a soundbite; it is not a solution. One would be left with the same infrastructure, the same workforce, and the same challenges that the railways currently face. It is absolutely important that Transport Ministers—all Transport Ministers, including the Rail Minister, which is not me—have good relationships with the train operating companies, and allow that engagement to happen with the unions so that we can take our railways forward.