Contracting Out (Functions in Relation to Space) Order 2021

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Tuesday 29th June 2021 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Contracting Out (Functions in Relation to Space) Order 2021.

Motion agreed.

North of England: Rapid Mass Transport System

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Monday 28th June 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Moylan]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what consideration they have given to the construction of an underground Maglev rapid mass transport system between cities in the north of England.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government have thoroughly investigated whether our forthcoming major investment in connectivity between northern cities should be maglev rather than rail. We concluded that rail remains the best option for a number of reasons, the most important being that new conventional rail infrastructure can better be integrated into the existing network.

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

My Lords, maglev is a great British invention increasingly deployed in Asia for high-speed travel. As our world-beating British tunnelling engineers have shown, constructing railways in-tunnel can be cheaper than constructing them on the surface, provided that it stays in-tunnel. However, it seems that every proposal for maglev that comes from the Department for Transport is rebuffed. Can my noble friend explain why her department is so wedded to a 200 year-old technology that, when constructed on the surface, can both cost more and be very annoying for local voters?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am sure all noble Lords will agree that, just because something is old, that does not mean it is useless. We must look at all technologies, and that is precisely what we do. My noble friend makes an important point in saying that systems around the world use this, but just one operational high-speed system does so at the moment: the Shanghai City maglev. There are many others operating at lower speeds—that is, less than 100 mph—and obviously, there is one in construction in Japan, but it is coming up against some cost pressures.

[Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)]

Will the Minister give a clear commitment on behalf of the Government to Northern Powerhouse Rail as part of the integrated rail plan?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I can reassure the noble Lord that the Government are considering all options as part of the integrated rail plan and of course, Northern Powerhouse Rail is a very important part of that. Once the IRP is published, Transport for the North will submit a business case consistent with policy and the funding framework.

[Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate (Con) [V]]

My noble friend’s idea of an underground magnetic railway between northern cities certainly has a strong attraction, especially following Elon Musk’s proposal for 1,000 mph trains in the United States, and especially coming from a former deputy chair of Transport for London. However, as Transport for the North has said, our aims in the north should be to improve the frequency, capacity, speed and resilience of our transport system. Can my noble friend go a little further in telling us, in a realistic way, how the Government intend to facilitate those aims in the near future?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The Government are working extremely hard on setting out plans as to how we will improve connectivity in the north. As I mentioned previously, the integrated rail plan will be published soon and will bring together the benefits of not just High Speed 2 but Northern Powerhouse Rail and other very significant projects across the north. Of course, our investment in traditional rail and upgrading and improving our current lines also continues.

[Lord Beith (LD) [V]]

My Lords, what the north-east needs is not an underground line but investment in the East Coast Main Line, which, according to LNER, does not have the capacity even to accommodate the service that it provided up to 2019. How can it be consistent with government policy to halve the daytime service from Berwick-upon-Tweed to London and the major cities, reducing it to a two-hour gap between trains with a longer journey time? This is the railway going backwards, is it not?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I accept that there are capacity constraints on the East Coast Main Line, which is why we are investing more than £1.2 billion to upgrade it. On 11 June, LNER launched a consultation on the new proposed timetable for the East Coast Main Line from May 2022. I encourage all noble Lords who have an interest in the East Coast Main Line to respond to it.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, if it is concluded that what we really need is a strategic rail link between not just Leeds and Manchester but Middlesbrough and Liverpool and all major towns in between to improve connectivity and boost productivity, how likely is that to happen and how much money will the Government allocate to it?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I can reassure my noble friend that we are of course looking at connectivity across the regions. A number of urban centres need to be connected, and it is really important that we make sure that towns and villages are connected via local transport to those point-to-point systems.

[Lord Birt (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I have long been a supporter of improving our strategic rail network, but I now wonder whether we face a mid to long-term future in which electric vehicles incorporating artificial intelligence within intelligent connected road networks will become the de facto mode of speedy, seamless door-to-door travel. Is the Department for Transport contemplating and investigating this possibility?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, I suspect that it will not be an either/or situation in the future, as indeed it is not now. We are actively considering opportunities for automation and AI. We want to see the safe development and deployment of self-driving vehicles. The Government have the Centre for Connected and Autonomous Vehicles, which is looking at developing regulations, investing in innovation and skills and engaging with the public, because it is important that we take them with us.

[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, it still strikes me as ironic that, although the UK invented maglev, Asia has made far greater and more imaginative use of this high-speed technology. I worry about us being too risk-averse in refusing to keep it on the table. Can I press the Minister perhaps less on the sci-fi possibilities of innovative technology solutions—although I do find them exciting—and more on the concrete plans to bring about high-speed connectivity between northern cities, which is crucial for levelling up? Can the Minister assure us that urgency and speed will be deployed rather than emulating HS2, which has to be the slowest high-speed project in the world? Surely the cost challenges of maglev in Japan are not worse than those of HS2 here.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I, too, am extremely excited by technology. The noble Baroness said that there has been widespread take-up of maglev technology across Asia, but that is not the case. The high-speed system is up and running in Shanghai at the moment, but China has now decided to invest in conventional rail rather than rolling out a large number of high-speed maglev systems. As I have mentioned many times, the Government are considering connectivity across the north and this will be set out in the integrated rail plan.

[Lord Rosser (Lab) [V]]

Can the Minister confirm in the light of her earlier answers that the Government do not know when the Northern Powerhouse Rail project, first promised by the then Chancellor of the Exchequer in 2014, will be approved, when its route plan will be made clear or when its promised infrastructure work will actually start? Assuming that is so—I think the Minister has been telling us that—can she at least assure us that work on the construction of Northern Powerhouse Rail will take priority over the start of work on the Prime Minister’s latest project: the construction of a new royal yacht?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I think that that is a rather extreme assessment of what I have said so far. I reiterate that the integrated rail plan must come first. Without it, it is pointless having a plan for Northern Powerhouse Rail because, of course, the whole point is that everything has to be integrated. As I said previously, we will work with Transport for the North, which will submit the business case for Northern Powerhouse Rail. Once we have received that, we will be able to set out how the project will go forward.

[Baroness Randerson (LD) [V]]

Does the Minister acknowledge that continued speculation about the future of Northern Powerhouse Rail and the issuing of new timetables by the East Coast Main Line, which reduced rail links for northern cities, simply serves to undermine confidence in government promises to level up and therefore reduces the likelihood of private sector investment in northern cities?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The absolute priority for this Government is to get it right. Endless amounts of pressure—questions such as “When will it be published?”—is probably not particularly helpful and leads to an awful lot of speculation. As I have said previously, we are taking due consideration of what stakeholders are saying and we are working very hard to come up with a robust, deliverable plan. That is exactly what this Government are going to do.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister is right about the Shanghai maglev, which I have been on. It is very fast and very noisy, but the technology, and therefore the costs, are very tight, because the track has to be kept within plus or minus half a millimetre in both directions, vertical and horizontal. She is absolutely right to reject it and I hope that the Government stick to their promises.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Now we are all very jealous—I too would love to go on that maglev. The noble Lord makes an important point: it is not just about the cost of infrastructure, but of operation, because it has a very high electricity consumption and can therefore be more costly to operate. I know that the Japanese system will be using superconducting electromagnetics, which should be cheaper but, although maglev has some great applications, it is not applicable everywhere.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed. We now come to the fourth Oral Question.

Great British Railway Plans

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd June 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to integrate (1) HS2, and (2) the East West Rail project, into their Great British Railway plan.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, HS2 Ltd and East West Rail Ltd are currently separate from Network Rail and are delivering important additions to our rail network. The Williams-Shapps Plan for Rail is clear that they will retain their current roles and work closely with Great British Railways as it takes over responsibilities for integration.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that clarification, but it seems that the statement in the Williams report that it will bring together the rail

“network under single national leadership”

is not correct. The report also states that there will be “a new focus” to deal with

“escalations in cost, gold-plating and over-specification”,

which clearly applies mainly to HS2 as the worst offender. Can the Minister explain why there are plans to remove funding from Northern Powerhouse Rail and give it to the bottomless pit of HS2?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, there are no such plans. In reference to the noble Lord’s statements about HS2 and East West Rail being separate infrastructure managers, I say that there are 13 different infrastructure managers already on the rail network. GBR will obviously work closely with them, as indeed it will have to with Transport for Wales and ScotRail. GBR will be set up to collaborate; that is what we want to see it doing.

[Lord Snape (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, bearing in mind that the recently issued White Paper stressed the importance of a “guiding mind” so far as the railway industry is concerned in future, is it not completely illogical to leave out HS2 and East West Rail, its two major construction projects? Surely there will be considerable involvement in both projects. Does the Minister not remember John Junor’s famous phrase in the Sunday Express: “Who is in charge of the clattering train?”

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Sadly, I do not remember that from the Express. One of the words that the noble Lord said was absolutely critical: “construction”. HS2 and East West Rail are indeed both in construction at the moment and will be for some time. There is therefore ample time as both become operational railways for them to collaborate with GBR to ensure that all their services interlink.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con)]

My Lords, what is the place of Scotland in this Great British Railways plan?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

There is a place for Scotland in Great Britain. The Scottish Government will continue to exercise their current powers and to be democratically accountable for them. Great British Railways will continue to own the infrastructure in Scotland, as Network Rail does now. The Government will of course explore options with Transport Scotland to enable the railway in Scotland to benefit from the reforms on the wider network of Great Britain.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

If HS2 is to be managed separately, can the Government guarantee that any of its cost overruns, whether in construction or operation, will not see a bailout from wider rail network funds and that it will be responsible for its own overruns?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I think the noble Baroness has just answered her own question: she stated that HS2 would be separate from Great British Railways. That is the case but in any event, as she pointed out, HS2 is under construction. It will be a while before it is an operating railway and then it will work closely with GBR.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, the Williams-Shapps report promises welcome expansion and better co-ordination of the railways. The Government also say that they are committed to levelling up the north, so can the Minister explain to us why the proposed new timetable for the east coast main line halves the number of trains from Newcastle to Manchester via Durham and Darlington? It also cuts one-third of the trains to London from Berwick and Darlington. In what sense is this expansion and levelling up?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

As it happens, I had a conversation yesterday with all the northern leaders when we met as the northern transport acceleration council. They raised this issue, which is of course one of capacity because there are more services, for example, between Newcastle and London. We have heard the pleas from various areas of the north on the timetabling. We are taking that away and doing what we can, but this is one of the reasons why we need Great British Railways. Timetabling is fiendishly complicated and we need to ensure that local areas are heard and get the services they deserve.

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

My Lords, will my noble friend take this opportunity to rebut the current rumours that Northern Powerhouse Rail is going to be scrapped?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My noble friend should not read too much into media reports on the front page of—I think it was—the Yorkshire Post. The Government continue to consider all options for Northern Powerhouse Rail as part of the integrated rail plan. Once that plan is published, we will work with Transport for the North to finalise a business case for Northern Powerhouse Rail. This will need to be consistent with the IRP’s policy and the funding framework.

[Lord Bradshaw (LD) [V]]

My Lords, can the Minister confirm that the East West Rail link, certainly between Oxford and Bletchley, needs to be electrified from the outset because of the heavy freight traffic from Southampton to the west coast main line passing through Bletchley? It would be a crying shame if electrification were postponed until after the passenger service started.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The case for electrification of East West Rail is being considered. A review is being undertaken by EWR Co, looking at all the options, including full electrification along the whole route as well as the various options for partial electrification, including battery-electric hybrid rolling stock.

[Lord McColl of Dulwich (Con) [V]]

My Lords, what proportion of the existing railway will be used in the building of this east-west extension? What is the latest estimate of the overall cost?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am grateful to my noble friend for advance notice of this question, because I too had to get my head around how the existing track and the new track all work together. There are three connection stages. The first one will rely on existing track, which will be upgraded, and the second two will be either small sections of existing track or mostly new track. The cost of connection stage 1 is currently £1.288 billion. We do not know the cost of future connection stages at this time, as of course the new track has not yet been fully scoped.

[Lord Rosser (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, assuming that the Northern Powerhouse Rail project, HS3, is not going to be scrapped—some parts of the media have suggested that it will be—will the Minister confirm that HS3 will be part of the integrated railway and Great British Railways, in the same way as other private companies are contracted to run the trains for the service and fares that Great British Railways sets?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Goodness—I think we are a little early in the game to be discussing those sorts of arrangements, but I have answered the question about Northern Powerhouse Rail. The integrated rail plan will be published soon.

[Lord Herbert of South Downs (Con)]

My Lords, is it not time to slay the urban myth that HS2 will not significantly cut travel times? The London to Birmingham travel time will be reduced by a third, or 30 minutes; the London to Manchester time will be halved to only around an hour. In Japan, growth is much more evenly distributed between the cities because of the Shinkansens; they are not content with existing speeds, but are building new lines. Is that not the global standard to which we need to aspire?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My noble friend is quite right but HS2 is not just about speed, as I so often need to say in your Lordships’ House. As he mentions, it is about bringing our regions closer together and delivering the capacity that our transport network absolutely needs. HS2 will give us a step change in capacity, while almost halving the time it takes to travel between our largest cities. If we were to do that by refreshing our existing railways, it would cause decades of inconvenience and disruption to passengers.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed.

Human Rights at Sea

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd June 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Teverson]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to protect human rights at sea.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, the Maritime and Coastguard Agency enforces the Maritime Labour Convention 2006, and the Work in Fishing Convention 2007, to protect the living and working conditions of seafarers and fishermen on UK-registered ships and fishing vessels anywhere in the world, and on non-UK ships and fishing vessels in UK ports and waters.

[Lord Teverson (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply, as far as it concerns UK-flagged vessels—but she will understand that the crews of vessels of all nations on the high seas, whether they are fishing vessels, freight vessels or cruise liners, can be uniquely vulnerable to intimidation, abuse and a lack of immediate recourse to any judicial authority. To start to counter this, will the Government support the work to establish the Geneva declaration on human rights at sea?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The noble Lord mentioned that my reply only concerned UK-flagged vessels, but I did also mention vessels at UK ports that are not UK-flagged. The Government are not able to provide formal UK support for the declaration that has been established by the charity of which I believe the noble Lord has been a patron for the last three months, and that has been discussed today. But what I can say is that we are hugely supportive of the existing international frameworks that already exist. The Maritime Labour Convention provides comprehensive rights and protections for the world’s 1.2 million seafarers, and ILO 188, the Work in Fishing Convention, does similar for those who work in fisheries.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as president of the Merchant Navy Association. For the benefit of the media outlets which pay particular attention to our House, that is unpaid, as are so many of the duties that so many of us fulfil.

One of the devastating effects of the pandemic has been the impact it has had on tens of thousands of merchant seamen who have been unable to return home after their voyages and have served many months over their maximum limits that were set for safety and welfare. What have the Government done to resolve this problem? Can the Minister explain why a group of British merchant seamen returning to the United Kingdom via Holland with British passports were locked up and berated about Brexit, while those with EU passports were waved through?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I agree with the noble Lord that the impact of Covid on seafarers has been critical in some circumstances. We take the welfare of seafarers extremely seriously. The UK was one of the first countries—if not the first—to recognise and declare seafarers as key workers during the pandemic. Once we had done that, we brought together more than a dozen nations for a ministerial summit in July 2020. We managed to galvanise people into action. This ultimately led to the declaration in the UN General Assembly later in the year to call on all states to take action to protect the welfare of seafarers in the pandemic.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, in her answer to the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, the Minister referred to the Geneva declaration on human rights at sea, with which she is obviously familiar. The current draft says:

“There is a profound need for the concept of ‘Human Rights at Sea’ to be accepted globally. It is primarily States that have responsibility for enforcing human rights standards at sea.”


Does the Minister agree with those two statements?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I can certainly agree that states predominantly have the responsibility for enforcing and making sure that human rights at sea are indeed followed. Of course, the Government share the concern about human rights abuses at sea. We work incredibly hard with our international partners through the UN organisations responsible for those human rights and with the IMO and the ILO—the International Labour Organization—which are able to set international law that applies to seafarers.

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB)]

My Lords, more than 20,000 refugees fleeing conflict in the Middle East have drowned in the last six years, many as a direct result of bombing and missile attacks by countries such as Britain, America and Russia pursuing so-called strategic interests. Does the Minister agree that we have a moral responsibility to look to the welfare and care of innocent civilians trying to escape by sea to a better life?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

As the noble Lord will be aware, the Government have good relationships with many countries in the Middle East and we work very closely with them in order to minimise the loss of life at sea.

[Baroness Stuart of Edgbaston (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I welcome the Government’s move to declare seafarers as key workers. It was an important first step. Will Ministers go even further and consider making the United Kingdom an international hub for the vaccination of seafarers of all nationalities to ensure that global trade, which is important to us and the rest of the world, can continue to proceed?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The noble Baroness makes a really good point. I am aware that visiting seafarers are able to get vaccinated. I will write to her with further details on our vaccination programme for seafarers.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister mentioned all the mechanisms in terms of laws and international conventions, but compliance with those requires port state control to stop a ship that is breaking those rules. What is she doing with her colleagues in the FCO and other departments to ensure that the mechanisms for compliance are strengthened globally so that the welfare of seafarers is better protected?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

In terms of what the UK is doing, in the first instance, we are showing leadership in the area. The Maritime and Coastguard Agency makes well over 1,000 stops every year in UK ports to check that vessels and the seafarers on them are in compliance with both international and domestic law. Where we find things that are not in compliance, we are able to share that information with other ports around the world. We continue to discuss enforcement with our international partners because it is important that these international laws, which have been agreed, are enforced effectively.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl) [V]]

My Lords, I recall as a young student of law, many years ago, the late-19th century case of R v Dudley and Stephens. This involved a shipwreck that caused a number of sailors to take to a lifeboat. As a result of hunger and thirst, they alleged that it was necessary to kill and eat the young cabin boy in order to survive. The common law defence of necessity succeeded at their trial but was reversed on appeal. Does the Minister think that, if the facts were repeated today, the cabin boy’s human rights to life would still trump those of the starving crew?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Oh, my Lords, with modern standards for lifeboats and search and rescue, I would very much hope that such a situation would not arise today. The shipwrecked seafarers would be rescued long before any decisions would need to be taken on who to eat. Modern-day search and rescue services are equipped with an astonishing range of technologies that aid both in alerting the rescue services that there is an issue and in locating persons in distress or potential distress.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab) [V]]

Nautilus International has stated that some crews in ships registered under flags of convenience, including Panama, are having their internet access restricted to maybe 25 megabytes a month. Does the Minister agree on the importance of internet access to the welfare of effective and motivated crews, especially when they have been away for a very long time? What action will the Government take to ensure that all ships entering UK ports provide unlimited broadband on their ships all the way through their voyage?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for raising this issue. I will write to him with any further details of conversations that are ongoing where limits on broadband might be detrimental to a seafarer’s mental health.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Non-Afl) [V]]

Can the Minister indicate what joint action can be taken internationally, through the G7 and G20 groups of nations, to eliminate abuses against fishermen—a need that has been recognised by many fish producer organisations, as many of these fishers contribute significantly to our local coastal communities? Many of these people come from eastern Europe and the Philippines and make a major contribution to the catching and processing sectors within the fishing industry.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The UK is fully committed to the welfare of all seafarers and, of course, fishermen. We will continue to work with our international partners to raise standards. We also recognise the difficulty of upholding human rights for those working away from home and beyond the normal authorities ashore. Sometimes, jurisdictional complexities can exist. This is why we welcome things such as the Responsible Fishing Vessel Standard, which is operated by Global Seafood Assurances. This provides commercial incentives to those operating fishing vessels to meet and maintain good standards of safety and employment.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)]

My Lords, all supplementary questions have been asked, and we now move to the fourth Oral Question.

BA and Ryanair: Customer Refunds

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Tuesday 15th June 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions they have had with representatives of the international travel industry about the impact of the action being taken by the Competition and Markets Authority against BA and Ryanair regarding refunds for customers.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, the investigation by the Competition and Markets Authority into British Airways and Ryanair is ongoing. It would be inappropriate for the Government to comment on an ongoing investigation by an independent regulator, but we have been clear that the rights of consumers and the obligations of businesses remain unchanged. It should not be unduly difficult for customers to receive a refund when they are entitled to it.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

One struggles to think of another product where customers pay such a high price so far in advance of receiving a service. Yet some airlines have, as the Minister has indicated, avoided making refunds when they could not deliver that service. This has left not only passengers out of pocket but has had a disastrous impact on travel agents who often have to refund their customers without receiving the fare money back from the airlines. Have the Government investigated any of the proposals from Which? that passengers who have paid in advance for their flights should have their payments held safely in trust and disbursed to airlines at the time of the flight? Does the Minister agree that a resolution to this problem is long overdue and that the actions of a small number of airlines are damaging the industry as a whole?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The Government are taking a keen interest in this issue, but it should be noted that refund issues between airlines and travel agents are a contractual matter between those two businesses. The Civil Aviation Authority does not have a role in enforcing such contracts. On the action we are taking on behalf of consumers, the CAA has reviewed airlines’ compliance on refunds. The authority did this last summer and it has since worked collaboratively with airlines to improve their performance. I am pleased to say that most airlines are now paying refunds within seven days.

[Lord Balfe (Con)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as someone who is owed money by both British Airways and Ryanair. I ask the Minister whether this system could be changed because there is a legal liability which is clearly not being followed. Indeed, these companies are using every trick in the book not to pay customers back. Will the Minister at least agree that this will be borne in mind when they queue up for loans and money from the Government?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I cannot comment on my noble friend’s circumstances, but the regulations already set out that if a consumer’s flight or holiday has been cancelled by an operator, that customer is entitled to a refund within a reasonable timescale. We are also asking businesses to make sure that they interact with their customers on a fair and responsible basis because that is important for the future of the travel industry. I hope that my noble friend will get his refunds, if they are due, as soon as possible.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, this issue of refunds applies to holiday lets as well as airlines and other travel providers. Does the Minister agree that if members of the public book a service in good faith and the Government subsequently change the law so that using the service becomes illegal, surely the Government should compensate those who are out of pocket—or is it only for those who have shouted loudest?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I think we can all agree that the travel industry has been fundamentally changed by the Covid pandemic. There is no doubt that travelling now is very different from what it was a year ago. We are encouraging all consumers to be as flexible as possible. They must read the terms and conditions because in certain circumstances, guidance from the Government may change and a refund may not be due. However, as I said previously, if something is cancelled, a refund should be given.

[Baroness Foster of Oxton (Con)]

My Lords, the aviation sector has spent the past year trying to second-guess government policy, with route cancellations being announced at the drop of a hat causing mayhem, as outlined by my right honourable friend Theresa May last week. As a key architect of Regulation 261/2004 on passenger rights, I would normally take a hard line, but not today. Will my noble friend remind those in BEIS and the DfT that force majeure includes a pandemic, and that perhaps the Competition and Markets Authority might better focus its attention on reminding Ministers and civil servants of their responsibilities across departments before resorting to possible legal action?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

As noble Lords will know, the Government are not taking this legal action themselves. The CMA is a non-ministerial department. It believes it has found some evidence that businesses are failing to comply with the law and it is taking reasonable steps to take appropriate enforcement action. It could be that this does not go to court and that the CMA reaches an appropriate agreement with British Airways and Ryanair, if there has been any wrongdoing. But I agree with my noble friend that we have to do everything that we can to get the travel industry back on its feet. That is our focus: we want British consumers to be able to travel once again and with certainty.

[Lord Razzall (LD)]

My Lords, following the Minister’s last response, while this is important, clearly it is only the tip of the iceberg for the aviation industry and its customers, as she acknowledges. Does she accept that a lengthy continuation of the green/amber/red system will have a devastating impact on the industry and its customers? Will she confirm that, when restrictions are fully lifted, barriers to flights will be removed, thereby removing this issue? Will she also confirm that it is not the Government’s policy, as some fear, to stop people travelling abroad, so as to boost the UK economy?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I point out to the noble Lord that the Government are taking a cautious approach to international travel. We realise that circumstances will change in different countries, at different times. The traffic light system in place works as well as it can, in the circumstances; it looks at case rates, positivity, genomic surveillance and the risk from variants of concern. I also make the noble Lord aware that lifting restrictions domestically does not necessarily mean changes to international travel.

[Lord Rosser (Lab) [V]]

It was not clear from the Minister’s response whether the Government were supportive of the suggestion put forward by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, which came from Which?, about payments for fares being held in a trust. Perhaps we could have a direct response to that. On this whole issue of refunds, the rights of the consumer seem to be protected somewhat tardily. I am not clear, but are the Government satisfied with the speed at which consumer rights to refunded fares during lockdown were fully addressed and, where applicable, enforced? Surely all are equal under the law and all are bound by the law, whether a financially strong airline not offering a refund or a financially stretched passenger in need of a refund.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

As I have said numerous times, consumers are getting their refunds back and this is happening more quickly than it was earlier in the pandemic, as policies and practices have been put in place at the behest of the CAA and the work that it has done with UK airlines. I did not respond to the question raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, because we are considering it among many other suggestions about how to get our international travel industry back on its feet. The Government also have ongoing work on airline insolvency following the Thomas Cook insolvency in the year before last.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

I welcome the action taken by the CAA. I completely understand the difficulties set out by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, and others; airlines and airports are suffering at the moment. But surely it is in the interests of airlines to ensure that they give passengers the best care and attention that they can. Like my noble friend Lord Balfe, I am due a voucher from Ryanair. Could the Minister address the issue of vouchers, which seem to disappear into the ether? Is there not a policy to remind passengers that they have a voucher and that it has to be used before its expiry date?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The same policy applies to vouchers as to cash payments if a flight is cancelled, but of course I cannot go into the detail of my noble friend’s circumstances. It is worth pointing out that, on 17 May, the Government published the Passenger COVID-19 Charter. It sets out what customers can expect, and what their rights and responsibilities are, when booking and travelling internationally. On the other side, we set out the reasonable expectations on the industry to be flexible. We did this to give both customers and the industry a firm footing, as we try to reopen international travel.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed.

Britain’s Railways

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Monday 24th May 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, I strongly welcome this long-overdue plan for reform and thank Keith Williams for his work on this. My only regret is that it has taken this long to get here. The industry has been crying out for reform for many years; one in three trains was late in the last year before the pandemic and two-thirds of contracts since 2012 have been awarded to single bidders—hardly a sign of a vibrant, competitive industry.

However, unlike some, I do not believe that the answer lies in a return to British Rail, which ended in stagnation and closures and as the butt of rather predictable jokes. This Statement harks back to the glory days of the 19th century, but the last 60 years have all been a bit of a mess. For a long time, the Transport for London contract structure has been touted as the answer, with the appropriate balance of risk for private contractors yet a fully integrated service. However, Transport for London has said publicly that it took it two decades of experience to get to the ideal contract model.

This is welcome, but it does not mean it will be easy—I do not for a minute imagine that the Minister thinks it will. The sheer scale of the thing is a problem. Great British Railways will be a massive organisation, bringing together Network Rail, many other DfT functions and some of the Rail Delivery Group functions. Currently DfT has three director-generals to cover rail services alone. The new organisation will be enormous and complex, and freedom from direct government interference will be essential for success.

The first problem is that, despite the name, Great British Railways is not really British, because it does not cover most of Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland or London. Those have devolved services. So, my question is an important one: how will GBR liaise and link in with those other services? It is essential that that link is smooth and coherent. And what about the devolution of services to local authorities, which has been encouraged lately? Local authorities can add a great deal to the standard of service. There must be a role for them in order to raise the threshold. I rather feel that the word “Great” will be at the mercy of headline writers the first time something goes wrong—but I think there is the potential to get a coherent picture of the whole, so long as devolution is taken fully into account.

In interviews, the Secretary of State has indicated the likelihood of fare rises. First, how much power will the Department for Transport have to intervene and dictate fare rises? Secondly, is it wise to raise fares at a time when the Government are trying to reduce emissions and rail services are desperately trying to attract passengers back after the pandemic? Fares are up 50% in real terms since 1997; they are the most expensive in Europe. I welcome the details on flexible season tickets and other long-overdue innovations, but the Government predict savings of £1.5 billion within five years—so are fare rises justified?

The Minister will tell us again that taxpayers have subsidised the railways to the tune of billions of pounds in the last year. In fact, they have subsidised train operating companies, not the passengers themselves. Taxpayers also subsidised Eat Out to Help Out, but the Government are not expecting restaurant customers to pay more now to refill government coffers. So I put in a plea: rather than raising fares, now is the time to reduce them for a short period, to lure people back on to the railways and, as new travel and working patterns emerge, to encourage new leisure rail users?

Finally, freight. The combination of recentralisation, better co-ordination and the current lower passenger numbers provides a big opportunity for bold steps to improve and increase freight services. But that needs capital investment, too; will we get it?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, and the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, for their generally—I think—fairly positive welcome for these proposals. The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, had a long list of Great British XYZ, and perhaps I may say, as we come out of restrictions, I feel we have a Great British bounce back coming along. So, what are we going to do about our railways and Great British Railways, which will be one of the “Great Britishes” that will be so important to us as we go forward?

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, seemed to be a little bit muted on the subject of the changes we have proposed. I do believe that we are proposing a once-in-a-generation change. It will be a massive transformation of the current way our railways operate, and it will lead to very significant improvements in service to passengers. But the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, is absolutely right: it will not be easy. This is a national infrastructure with national services; it is hugely complicated now and will continue to be in the future. We know that. It will not be easy.

So the scale of transformation will have to be taken in bite-size pieces, and we will have to think about how the development of these phases will happen. Andrew Haines, who, as we all know, is the current chief executive of Network Rail and a well-respected industry leader, will be developing these interim arrangements for Great British Railways. It is important we do that. We could not have done it before because we had not announced the White Paper, and we will be establishing phases for the delivery of Great British Railways and all the phases that have to happen in between. We will be working collectively and collaboratively with the sector, and that is really important.

On the DfT side, I am well aware that there are an enormous number of very talented people in rail. We will continue to support Great British Railways as much as is needed in the short term. The DfT will establish the rail transformation programme, which will assist Andrew Haines and the wider sector as we make these changes.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, talked about how the blame for delays will not disappear. I agree. I asked exactly the same question about big birds and little birds, and whether you could be blamed for one and not the other. I am reassured that it will be vastly simplified and will not be as complicated and long-winded as it is now.

The noble Lord went on to mention the incentives regime. It is important that we have a really firm and accountable incentives regime, because we must lift the quality of services for the passenger. Therefore, we will incentivise high-quality, punctual services. We will ask operators to manage costs and to attract passengers. From a ministerial perspective, we will hold Great British Railways to account and it will hold the holders of the passenger service contracts to account via statutory powers and the ability to issue binding guidance—for example, on any of the elements the noble Lord mentioned.

We believe that there should continue to be private sector investment in rolling stock, but the noble Lord highlighted the slight tension that exists. We will ask Great British Railways to take a strategic approach to the overarching issue of rolling stock. It will look at supply chain sustainability, for example, and how to generate high-value jobs in the UK, but the TOCs will still be responsible for procuring value from the market and improving the passenger experience when the trains are running.

Devolution is a very important part of improving our transport system. I am speaking specifically about devolution to the local transport authorities. That would include the metro mayors. We are extremely keen to work with the metro mayors on devolution. The White Paper publication is a significant landmark as we start the process of these implementing reforms, but it is obvious that they cannot be devolved immediately. We will work together to think about how the structures with the metro mayors and the smaller local transport authorities will work and where they will be able to take a greater level of control of the services in their area.

Scotland and Wales are both extremely important in this regard. Both will exercise their existing powers and be accountable for them. The infrastructure is, of course, all owned by Great British Railways, with the exception of some of the valley lines in Wales, and we will work in partnership with Transport Scotland and Transport for Wales. We would expect a good relationship with them, because it is so important for the services to improve.

Great British Railways will have a five-year business plan, which will be drafted in the context of a 30-year strategy. It will set out the infrastructure funding settlement for that five years and the level of operational subsidy. This will give certainty and stability to the network as a whole.

The noble Baroness mentioned fare rises. I suspect that my Secretary of State would not rule them out, but we have to simplify the current mass of ticketing options and prices and the endless bits of paper that you have to carry around with you. We will look to introduce more pay-as-you-go, more contactless payment and more digital ticketing as soon as possible.

The noble Baroness mentioned some short-term incentives to get people back on to the trains. The Department for Transport has commissioned Network Rail to look at this. It has set up the rail revenue recovery group, which we will look to for advice on short-term and long-term interventions on fares. This links back into the recovery in demand, because we want people to come back to the trains and we hope that the number of passengers will grow further. Financial sustainability is linked to demand but not necessarily on a very firm basis, because it depends on how much passengers are paying.

Therefore, it is the case that we have to make sure that our railways are financially sustainable in the long term. On one side, we will look at how we can improve services to passengers, as well as at fares, and on the other side we have to look at how we will modernise the system with regard to some areas where there might be changes to the ways in which people work. We want to develop skills and perhaps use them more effectively within the system. That will be up to the industry, working with the unions, to develop the best and most highly-skilled workforce that we can for our industry.

I hope that I have been able to answer the questions asked by the noble Lord and the noble Baroness. I thank them genuinely for their positive engagement, and I am sure that there will be more questions to come. I look forward to comments and questions from all noble Lords, and I hope that they will consider joining me at the all-Peers briefing section with the Rail Minister on Wednesday.

[The Deputy Speaker (The Earl of Kinnoull) (CB)]

My Lords, we now come to the 20 minutes allocated for Back-Bench questions. I ask that both questions and answers be kept short.

[Lord Haselhurst (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I remind the House of my interest as chair of the West Anglia Taskforce. Does my noble friend except that this railway, having only two tracks, demonstrates the impossibility of satisfying the competing needs of Transport for London, Hertfordshire and Essex commuters, freight operators, the advanced industries around Cambridge and the operators of Stansted Airport? Will the creation of GBR offer a better prospect for the restoration of the two extra tracks that were torn up after the Beeching report?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My noble friend raises an important point and highlights why Great British Railways is so desperately needed, in that we have so many different operators and indeed types of train services—be they passenger or freight—trying to access limited track in certain areas. It is the case that we will continue to invest tens of billions of pounds into the railways on new lines, trains, services and electrification; we want to provide the stable foundation for innovation and future investment. My noble friend mentioned the Beeching closures. The £500 million Restoring Your Railway Fund remains open, and any ideas should be forwarded to that fund.

[Lord Craig of Radley (CB) [V]]

[Inaudible]—the experience, particularly of Southern, has been blighted from time to time by industrial disputes. What involvement have the rail unions had in helping to formulate these new plans? Post Covid, many people may continue to work part-time from home, reducing passenger numbers below the 2019 figure of 1.8 billion per year. What assessment have the Government made of this likely reduction?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

On the first issue raised by the noble and gallant Lord, Keith Williams met with the general-secretaries on a number of occasions while he was carrying out this review. As I previously mentioned, we need to create an efficient and sustainable railway; that is in the interests of passengers, taxpayers and the workforce as a whole, so we will of course continue to work with the unions to achieve that as we take these reforms forward. On future demand, we are confident that people will return to the railways, and in line with the road map we will continue to work closely with the sector on measures to enable people to come back again, and to come back quickly. This includes the introduction of a flexible season ticket, which will be introduced across the network and which will make it easier for those people who commute, say, two or three days a week. It will make that more cost effective for them, and that will be introduced to coincide with the final step of the Government’s road map out of lockdown.

[Lord McLoughlin (Con)]

My Lords, I draw attention to my interests as set out in the register. I welcome the Williams report, but we should recognise the very great changes that were brought about by privatisation. Up until 1992, the number of people using our railways was 700 million. In 2019, it was 1.9 billion. That was a tremendous success, which was partly brought about by engaging with the private sector so that we got better services across our railway network. While I accept the necessary changes that the Secretary of State and my noble friend have set out, will my noble friend also acknowledge the very important part played by the private sector, and will she say that the private sector will be very much seen as partners in the way forward?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My noble friend is absolutely right: during privatisation, passenger numbers more than doubled, so the involvement of the private sector has had a transformational impact on the way that we run our railways today. This Government want to keep the best elements of the private sector. We want to keep its capacity for innovation and work with it to drive growth in the railways. We will do that by having these new contracts for passenger operators, with strong incentives to run very high-quality services.

[The Deputy Speaker (The Earl of Kinnoull) (CB)]

The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, has withdrawn, so I call the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw.

[Lord Bradshaw (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I believe it is very important that a clear distinction is made between what Ministers do and what Great British Railways does. It is important that they do not tread on each other’s feet, because that will lead to disputes and trouble. A clear financial target, preferably for three or five years so that the industry can make trade-offs without constant Treasury interference, will give the freight railway a chance to do what it does best. An electrified freight railway will make huge inroads into the amount of fuel we burn with lorries. Lastly, we need to follow best practice in using data to improve the passenger experience. Do not level down to the standards of the worst performer; rather, level up to the standards of the best.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Those were some very interesting observations from the noble Lord, who is clearly well versed in the railways. He is right that we need to make sure that Ministers’ responsibilities are separate from those of Great British Railways, which is why we are proposing strong levers to hold them to account, but will not meddle in the day-to-day running of the organisation. So there will be statutory powers and the ability to issue binding guidance in specific areas, which will be important.

The noble Lord mentioned planning, and I have already pointed out that there will be five-year business plans within the 30-year strategy. He also mentioned freight, which is a very important part of this. It is often a forgotten area of the railways, and we believe that it will benefit from the national co-ordination that Great British Railways will bring. His last point was on data, which is one of the key areas where we feel that we can improve customer satisfaction. Historically, data has been held by the train operating companies and not shared as well as it should have been. By putting all this data and responsibility for revenues within Great British Railways, we will necessarily bring together all the data. We believe that from that we will not only simplify tickets but think of better ways to use that data to provide more value-for-money services for passengers.

[Lord Davies of Gower (Con)]

My Lords, as a frequent user of Transport for Wales and GWR from west Wales to London, I very much welcome this Statement. It is good to see the travelling passenger put at the forefront, in ticketing and the adoption of modern, flexible ways to pay. I note the comments that close collaboration is promised between Great British Railways and the devolved nations. Can the Minister perhaps elaborate on how the new ticketing system will integrate, for ease of use by the travelling public, with the payment systems of the now nationalised Transport for Wales and the proposed south Wales metro scheme? What conversations have the Government had with the Welsh Government on this?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Our engagement with Transport for Wales and the Welsh Government has been very significant and over a long period, both at ministerial and official levels. Next, we want to develop a joint working agreement with Transport for Wales and Great British Railways, so that all issues around fares, not only within Wales but for cross-border services, can be considered in the round. We would like them to join us in sharing data and using the single website and app to purchase tickets. We cannot force them to do that, but we look forward to having a close working relationship as we take this forward.

[Lord Harries of Pentregarth (CB) [V]]

Does the Minister agree that rail fares are already far too high—the highest in Europe—but that if they are to be kept at a reasonable level, it is necessary for railways to carry more passengers? This means increasing the capacity and more investment. Are the Government willing to put in the necessary investment? Of course, this would also be highly desirable from an environmental point of view. I understand that Chiltern Railways—which in my experience has always been very efficient—has in fact put in a lot of investment in recent years. I wonder what lessons there are to be learned from its example.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I think there are lots of ways to attract passengers back on to the railways, and investment in improving capacity is one of them. Of course, that is why the Government are investing many billions of pounds in HS2, which will release capacity on other lines to enable more short-distance services to be put into place. But it is not just about those mega-projects; it is about the small and urgent network capacity upgrades that we can make, and the Government continue to look at these. I reassure the House that the RNEP—which sets out which projects the Government will take forward over what sort of timeframe—will be published soon, and that will set out all the schemes under consideration.

[Lord Snape (Lab) [V]]

Does the Minister accept that we have spent many years listening to Conservative Ministers extolling the virtues of franchising, yet the White Paper acknowledges, in effect, that the franchising system has been an expensive failure, the abolition of which is long overdue? On rail freight, what actions will Ministers take to ensure the future success of the rail freight industry if we are to achieve a meaningful transfer of freight from road to rail and reduce the number of heavy goods vehicles on our roads? Will Ministers reject the RHA’s incessant demands for bigger and heavier lorries on our overburdened road network? Does the Minister agree that, properly encouraged, rail freight could make a significantly greater contribution towards the Government’s carbon reduction targets?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I cannot agree with the noble Lord that franchising has been an expensive failure. We have seen an enormous growth in passenger numbers as a result of the involvement of the private sector, and I think that has given us a really firm foundation from which to go better. However, rail freight is a topic that we can probably agree a little more on. I believe that it will benefit from this national co-ordination, as I said earlier, and we will consult closely with the freight industry to find out what challenges it has and how we can help it by making changes. We will introduce a new rules-based track access regime, which will have a statutory underpinning. That will be relevant for both freight and open access operators. We believe that that will yield more goods going by rail freight, and we will engage with the industry to make sure that this is the case.

[Lord Beith (LD)]

My Lords, train operators run many stations. If a train operator such as LNER runs stations well, enhancing facilities to support customers and promote its services, would it not make more sense to contract it to continue to do it, rather than doing what the Government propose in this White Paper, which is to transfer station management entirely to this behemoth of an organisation—Great British Railways—where it may well be administered from some distance away? We would end up with two lots of staff on the platform, with one administered from a great distance.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The noble Lord raises an interesting point about stations. Stations are a great asset, particularly in local communities, because sometimes they are not just railway stations. Certainly, I would like to see many more of them being developed into integrated transport hubs where we could have buses and active travel interventions as well, so that they connect much more into transport for the local community. Obviously, how station ownership and operation will pan out in the future will be subject to a fair amount of work. For example, some of them may end up being run by local government or local transport authorities, and we will be able to say more on that in the levelling-up White Paper.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

Can my noble friend confirm that the key objectives of privatisation—which could have been called the “Young-Major plan for rail”, had modesty not intervened—will be retained? These objectives are: no monopoly in the train operating industry but new entrants encouraged; the capital costs of the passenger rolling stock and freight rolling stock borne by the private sector, not the public purse; and passenger service contracts being constructed to reward efficiency, quality and passenger growth. None of those characteristics is available under full nationalisation.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Bring back the Young-Major plan for rail greatness is what I say. I can absolutely confirm all those things to my noble friend. We are retaining the original objectives of privatisation to make sure that passenger services are awarded following a fair competition. We had to strip out some of the complexity of those competitions to allow train operators to bid on a simpler basis, and we think we have achieved that. We will open up new opportunities for private sector involvement where we can.

As I have said, the capital cost of passenger and freight rolling stock will be borne by the private sector. There will be a certain element of a guiding mind when it comes to a strategic intervention on the rolling stock, but this will not preclude train operating companies purchasing their own rolling stock. Obviously, we are replacing the franchises with this more commercially sustainable model of a passenger service contract, which will ensure that we get the right amount of innovation into the system and passengers benefit.

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I remind the House of my railway interests as declared in the register. I am happy to share the optimism of the noble Baroness for the future of the railway, not least because of the involvement of both Andrew Haines and Sir Peter Hendy in Great British Railways. I have the highest confidence in both, and I believe they will work well to deliver what could be a very successful railway.

I would like to ask the Minister one specific question about the reference in section 4, on page 33 of the White Paper, to a “national brand and identity”. Does this mean that train operators will have to repaint all their rolling stock in new standard Great British Railway colours? Not even British Rail had a common identity for all its passenger trains. The Government may find some resistance to making companies abandon their established, and in many cases attractive, liveries.

May I also ask about the reference to electrification, which I asked about last Tuesday, particularly the references to Oxford, Sheffield and Swansea on page 14? An announcement is promised “shortly” on page 88. How shortly is “shortly”?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, shortly is shortly. I, too, am optimistic about the railways and all forms of transport because they are the great connector. The noble Lord asks about branding. Branding is important because having a coherent, consistent and clearly branded rail network gives passengers greater confidence in using it. Great British Railways will use an updated version of the classic double arrow logo. We also have an updated version of the font, which I think will be widely recognised across the system. However, variants of the national brand will be developed to reflect the English regions and Scotland and Wales, while emphasising that the railway is one network serving the whole of Great Britain. It may well be that, as the noble Lord suggests, there will be slight variants depending on which part of the country the train operates in.

[Baroness Altmann (Con) [V]]

My Lords, are there any plans for environmental targets for Great British Railways, such as carbon emission reductions or progress towards net zero, and incentives for them?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The Government are committed to decarbonising the railway as part of our wider, legally binding target of reaching net zero emissions across the whole UK economy by 2050. Our forthcoming transport decarbonisation plan will set out the scale and pace of rail decarbonisation that is necessary for us to achieve that. The rail network enhancements pipeline—the RNEP—will be updated soon, and in that we will have various schemes which will lead to decarbonisation. Indeed, we are working very closely on research to look at how we can also decarbonise the vehicles themselves; for example, by looking at hydrogen trains. The new industry structure, including Great British Railways, will ensure a more co-ordinated approach to delivering our carbon emissions commitments.

[Lord Haskel (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, as the White Paper states, passenger service contracts work well for local, regional and commuter services, but experience here and elsewhere has shown that these service contracts work less well on intercity routes because they allow less room for innovation. Will there be two types of passenger service contract to allow for this? Where will the line be drawn? Will it be just one size fits all?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, there will not be two types of passenger service contract. There will be many types because the noble Lord is right. Some may incorporate revenue risk in due course to encourage innovation and get passengers back on to the railways.

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

My Lords, rail fare income is closely correlated with the economic cycle. The new arrangements involve a complete transfer of fare risk from the train operating companies to the taxpayer. This means that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is going to have to be very indulgent towards Great British Railways, especially in an economic downturn, if falling fare income is not to cannibalise the investment programme. Has my noble friend reached a specific agreement with Her Majesty’s Treasury on its approach to this aspect of funding Great British Railways? If so, will it be in the public domain?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The five-year business plan that will be developed by Great British Railways will be in the public domain and it will set out the capital and revenue funding over that period. I agree with my noble friend that passenger demand is challenging to predict as we move out of the pandemic. Evidently there will be risks for the Government as the holder of the revenue risk. The Government have supported the railways to the tune of £8.5 billion in the last financial year. However, on a positive note for the Treasury, we expect that the reform package will deliver savings of around £1.5 billion per year after about five years. That is 15% of pre-pandemic income.

House adjourned at 6.43 pm.

Transport Decarbonisation Strategy

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Wednesday 19th May 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they plan to publish their transport decarbonisation strategy.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, we are working hard to finalise our bold and ambitious plan to decarbonise transport and expect to publish it shortly. We need to go further and faster to tackle emissions from the transport sector. The transport decarbonisation plan will set out a credible pathway to delivering transport’s contribution to carbon budgets and net zero by 2050.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

I am glad that we will hear the details of the decarbonisation policy soon. Do the Government accept expert evidence given to the citizens’ Climate Assembly last year that to reach absolute zero by 2050 there has to be a two-pronged approach to road traffic: vehicle electrification and a reduction in car miles of between 2% and 4% a year? Previous government predictions have been for an increase in car miles. In the light of this new evidence, will the Minister reconsider the Government’s £27 billion road-building programme, which academics have recently criticised as being up to 100 times more carbon intensive than government predictions?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I reassure the noble Baroness that the £27 billion figure is not a road-building programme; it includes operating and maintenance of the strategic road network. She mentioned a two-pronged approach; this Government are taking a three-pronged approach, which we feel is better. The first area is technological improvements; for example, HGVs are very difficult to decarbonise, so we are going to spend £20 million on a zero-emission freight trial. The second area is regulation, where we are going to ban the sale of diesel vehicles from 2030. The third area is new behaviours—a modal shift. How do we get people on to public transport, cycling and walking?

[The Earl of Caithness (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I am delighted that my noble friend and her department are going further and faster. As part of that process, would they consider being much tougher on diesel hybrid cars, where the emissions are far worse than the manufacturers’ present figures, so that we can get emissions down to the right level?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My noble friend is right that we really must look at these plug-in hybrids and make sure that they do what they say on the tin. On ending the sale of diesel cars and vans in 2030, we will also consult on what zero-emission capability looks like, because some that would be for sale after 2030 could be said to have zero-emission capability—it is up to people to respond to that consultation and tell us what that actually means so that we can get carbon emissions down.

[Lord Patel (CB) [V]]

My Lords, battery and fuel cell technologies will both be needed to decarbonise transport. Why are the Government not showing the same leadership to make the UK the world leader in fuel cell technologies as they have shown in developing battery technologies, especially as in the UK we have some of the best scientists in the emerging science of fuel cells? I would be content if the Minister would much rather write to me and put a copy in the Library.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am very happy to answer that question right here, right now. The Government are a leader in hydrogen; we have invested £121 million in hydrogen innovation, which is supporting a world-class refuelling network which we are looking to expand. We are funding demonstration trials across all modes and driving the development of hydrogen vehicles and the hydrogen production supply chain. In transport alone, we are investing £23 million in various hydrogen interventions. We are going as fast as we can.

[Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab) [V]]

I do not think the Minister answered the Question of the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, on the road investment strategy. Why have the Government not published any assessment of the cumulative traffic and carbon impact of the strategy? Does the Minister accept that the estimated increase in traffic and CO₂ emissions will negate 80% of the planned carbon savings from electric vehicles?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

We accept that there will have to be a very careful balance between traffic growth and the sorts of vehicles we have on our roads, which is why this Government are very focused on electric vehicles. On road enhancements, carbon is a key consideration in granting approval for new road enhancement programmes. I know that Highways England is a leader in innovation; for example, it uses cement-free concrete in much of its construction. I expect new developments in that area as technology drives innovation and change.

[Lord Teverson (LD) [V]]

My Lords, new houses being built today are not required to have electric charging points for vehicles. Why not?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, that is an excellent point. I will go away, find out and write to the noble Lord.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, despite success in introducing hybrid buses in London, outside London 95% of buses in England are still diesel-powered. What will the Government do to introduce hybrid and zero-emission buses and rectify these disappointing figures?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, the Government are extremely ambitious in this area. We are not even bothering about hybrids—we are going straight for zero-emission vehicles. As part of the £3 billion announced prior to the bus strategy, we will invest to support 4,000 zero-emission buses across the country. In this year alone, we will invest £120 million in zero-emission vehicles, which we expect to support 500 buses. This is in addition to the £50 million we are giving to Coventry for 300 buses. We are making a good start. There is a way to go, but we will have supported 4,000 buses by the end of this Parliament.

[Lord Lucas (Con) [V]]

My Lords, will my noble friend consider giving local communities much greater freedom to experiment with low-speed zones, road closures and other measures which might really encourage active travel locally? The more centralised system that we have at the moment takes an inordinate amount of time to navigate.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I accept my noble friend’s point, and we have had some good conversations about this in the past. I encourage him to wait for the transport decarbonisation plan; I suspect there will be a bit more about that in it. We want local authorities to take more control over carbon emissions in their area and their local transport strategies.

[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, according to the Department for Transport—a tad opportunistically—lockdown provided a once-in-a-generation opportunity to make lasting changes to how we make short journeys. The Minister said this would get people walking, cycling and on to public transport. Can she assure us that transport decarbon-isation will not exploit the new normal to reduce choice by imposing top-down green solutions, often at the expense of car drivers, as we have seen in the recent imposition of low-traffic neighbourhoods by councils despite rank and file community opposition and no consultation?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

A low-traffic neighbourhood cannot be introduced without consultation. Indeed, the Secretary of State specifically asked for the guidance to be rewritten very recently to ensure that all local authorities ensure adequate consultation in their communities, including with emergency services, to make sure that low-traffic neighbourhoods are a success.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

My Lords, today’s Public Accounts Committee report suggests that the Government have a mountain to climb to achieve zero-emission car ownership. How will the Minister address the practical inequalities of access to charging points for those who do not have driveways or the financial means to install their own charging points?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The noble Baroness highlights one of the key challenges in charging electric vehicles. It is why we have announced that we are investing £1.3 billion to accelerate the rollout of charging infrastructure. We recognise that not all people will be able to have a charger right outside their house; that is why we will work with local authorities and workplaces to provide chargers where we can.

[Lord Randall of Uxbridge (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I am sure my noble friend is aware of the serious amount of carbon emissions caused by shipping. What discussions have the UK Government had internationally to encourage decarbonisation in this crucial sector?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

International maritime emissions do indeed need to be considered. As I think the noble Lord knows, we will include international shipping emissions in our carbon targets going forward in CB6. The Government have published two documents to date: the Maritime 2050 plan and the Clean Maritime Plan back in 2019. On 22 March, we announced the clean maritime demonstration competition—£20 million to fund feasibility studies and trials for zero-emission vessels and ports, some of which I expect to be driven by hydrogen.

[Lord Vaizey of Didcot (Con)]

My Lords, one of the biggest causes of carbon emissions in west London at the moment is the closure of Hammersmith Bridge, which has turned west London into a car park. Can the Minister move further and faster in reopening Hammersmith Bridge? I suggest a three-pronged approach: getting people together, knocking heads together and sorting it out.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My noble friend raises my very favourite topic, but I reassure him that it is neither my nor the Government’s decision whether to reopen the bridge. It is the decision of the London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham. However, he may be reassured to know that four things need to happen—I will not bore noble Lords with what they are—and they should be completed by the end of June. We will ask the London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham to reconsider the continued case for safe operation to see whether we can get this bridge back open by mid-July.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)]

My Lords, all supplementary questions have been asked.

Hitachi Rail: Rail Travel Disruption

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Wednesday 19th May 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the disruption to rail travel from the recent cracks found in trains constructed by Hitachi Rail; and what measures they intend to take to ensure that services can resume without further disruption.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, I am pleased to say that, following the introduction of comprehensive daily testing regimes, LNER is able to run substantially all of its pre-planned timetable and GWR is operating an amended timetable, prioritising intercity routes to south Wales and the south-west.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

As a regular user of LNER, I appreciate that it has had a triple whammy this year, with Covid and the lockdown, the substantial improvements that Network Rail is undertaking at King’s Cross and now the recent disruption in services. Could my noble friend confirm that substantial repairs are expected to be needed, in the medium and long term, to the class 800 carriages? It is a matter of note that LNER operates only Azuma trains in this class. It could take until the end of 2022 to complete the repairs. Could my noble friend confirm whether Hitachi has the experience and capacity to undertake these repairs, in this country?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I reassure my noble friend that of course Hitachi has the experience to undertake these repairs. It comes with a good track record of safety and a high-quality engineering pedigree. I reassure my noble friend that LNER will do whatever it can to keep the timetable going, potentially by using slightly shorter trains to ensure that services continue, as much as they can.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, two weeks ago, all the trains were stopped for safety reasons, with serious reports of long cracks in aluminium. Now most have started again; presumably they are safe. Will the Minister commit to producing an urgent report on the cause of this, what has been done to put it right and how the longer-term safety of these trains will be assured?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I commit to the noble Lord that the ORR will produce a report on the safety lessons from this incident and on how passengers have been impacted.

[Lord Bradshaw (LD) [V]]

My Lords, is it not a fact that 95% of GWR trains ran on Monday? In fact, the company expects to run an extremely high proportion of services. Would the Minister do something to stop all these prophets of doom, who seem to make public transport a kicking boy and put people off resuming their journeys?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I absolutely agree with the noble Lord. GWR is operating an amended timetable, and passengers need certainty nowadays, so that they can plan when to travel. GWR has every confidence that its amended timetable will run. Of its 93 class 800 trains, only 21 remain out of service. I therefore encourage passengers to travel and travel safety.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I entirely endorse what my noble friend just said about certainty. I am delighted to report that I had a good and punctual journey from Newark on Monday this week, but it is important to reinstate the service from Lincoln as comprehensively as possible. Most important is that, having got a timetable, we stick to it. Could my noble friend use her best endeavours in that regard?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am greatly relieved that my noble friend had a reasonable journey to London this week; I do not think I could have coped with another bad journey. I reassure him that LNER’s timetable will be in place until 7 June. As I am sure the noble Lord knows, this is to take into account the east coast upgrade works at King’s Cross.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB) [V]]

My Lords, it is good to hear that things are getting back to normal. Has it taught us anything about how we ought to prepare for delays in the future? After all, these lines are incredibly important to business, as well as to ordinary people going about their daily lives. Secondly, have the Government made any assessment of the degree to which journey times are currently being affected?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am not aware that we have made an assessment of journey times but, given that the timetables are pretty much back to normal, albeit with fewer services, I expect that the journey times are probably about the same. With regard to the lessons that we have learned, I refer the noble Lord to my previous answer about the report that the ORR is preparing on this. I am sure that all noble Lords will look at that with interest.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, as part of the reintroduction of Hitachi 800 trains, it has been reported that the recovery plan developed with the Office of Rail and Road includes a forward repair plan to ensure their long-term safety. Can the Minister confirm how long this plan will take?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Unfortunately, I cannot confirm that at the moment, because the forward repair plan is still in development. It may help noble Lords to understand that the fix is straightforward; the problem is that it uses very high temperature welding, which means that there is a lot of disconnection and reconnection to be done. So the process is quite complex, but the fix is fairly straightforward. There may be ongoing limited disruption to passengers, but there will be certainty as to the amended services offered. We do not expect many short-notice cancellations.

[Lord Beith (LD)]

My Lords, there are at least seven passenger train operating companies providing services on the east coast main line, and there is freight, which means that, on an intensively used line, any disruption or speed restriction, for example, has many knock-on effects. Does that not strengthen the case to increase the capacity of the east coast main line by way of improvements, both north and south of Newcastle?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

There may be a case for improving capacity and for looking at the way that trains are operated in this country. It will not be many more sleeps before the rail review is published.

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes (Con) [V]]

My Lords, can the Minister comment on whether the Government are willing to provide financial support to the affected train operators, which have already been badly hit by the coronavirus pandemic and may be struggling financially to provide alternative transport for passengers, while this disruption continues?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

As my noble friend may be aware, the Government are essentially taking on all the revenues and costs for the train network as a whole, currently. Under the ERMA arrangements that we have with the train operating companies, the Government pay them a management fee for operating the services. However, compensation and how it works through the system is extremely important. There are two things to consider. The Government procured the trains for the intercity express programme with Hitachi, and the operating companies pay for them only if they are available to be out on the tracks that day. If any rectification is required due to an issue such as these cracks, Hitachi would have to pay to fix it.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)]

My Lords, all supplementary questions have been asked.

Railway Industry Association Report

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Tuesday 18th May 2021 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government welcome this report and agree that further electrification is required to decarbonise the railway, alongside the deployment of hydrogen and battery trains on some lines. In the last three years, we have completed almost 700 miles of electrification in England and Wales, and we will continue to do more.

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I welcome that Answer. The Railway Industry Association report is indeed excellent and the case it makes for a rolling programme of electrification is unanswerable. Can the Minister confirm that the Government are committed to decarbonising the railway by no later than 2050? If so, do they accept that the most effective and beneficial way to deliver that is a steady, stable stream of electrification of between 400 and 500 kilometres each year? Will she and her ministerial colleagues in the DfT do their utmost to resist the Treasury’s efforts again to kick this into the long grass and water it all down by putting it off into the spending review?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The Government’s plans for decarbonising all forms of transport will be set out in the transport decarbonisation plan, which will be published shortly, but the noble Lord is quite right that the best way to make the most effective use of the supply chain is to have a rolling programme. That is why electrification projects are included in the rail network enhancements pipeline, which was last published in October 2019 and will be updated in the near future. I take his point about the Treasury, but it is also the case that we must be prudent and stay within the funding envelope that we have available.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

The Minister will be familiar with the east-west railway line connecting our two main varsity towns. She will also be familiar with the fact that the design was for a fully electrified line, since when the Government have changed that to a non-electrified line, with electrical specification left for the future and the line being built by a private sector company. Are we really going to decarbonise our transport system by adopting this temporary and, in the view of many of us, expensive alternative, rather than going ahead with building the line as it was originally designed?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I reassure the noble Lord that it is our aim to deliver a net-zero carbon railway. East West Rail is a very important part of the development of the Ox-Cam Arc, which will support housing and jobs. Any decision to grant development consent for the project will need to demonstrate that it would not have a material impact on the ability of the Government to meet their carbon reduction targets. However, EWR Co, the company responsible for it, continues to examine decarbonisation options, including full electrification along the whole route, as well as various options for partial electrification using battery or electric hybrid rolling stock and other sustainable rolling stock options.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

There is nothing really new in this review because, of course, electrification has always been a cleaner option and, as I never tire of saying, the Green Party has been saying this for 30 or 40 years. Why have the Government not taken this as a matter of urgency and done it much faster?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I take this opportunity to remind the House that the Green Party is against HS2, a position which I remain a little confused by. The noble Baroness is quite right that now is the opportunity to put our shoulder to the wheel and to electrify our railways as quickly as we can. That is why we will be setting out a rolling programme in the forthcoming RNEP, and why we take great heed of what was written by the Network Rail-led traction decarbonisation network strategy. That is not government policy, but there are some very important conclusions which we are looking at, and we will be putting them in the transport decarbonisation plan.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, the report mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, makes a compelling case for accelerating the electrification programme so that we can hit our carbon commitments, but it says very little about the industry’s capacity to deliver, which historically has been disappointing. Can my noble friend ensure that if the recommendations are accepted, we have the technical skills and know-how to deliver, on budget and on time, and that any reorganisation of Network Rail will not impede progress?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My noble friend is quite right. Indeed, the Rail Industry Association report in 2019 set out that one of the root causes of the challenges of electrification was the 20-year hiatus that had previously occurred in the electrification projects, which led to a loss of specialist knowledge. But we are looking at the supply side of this to bring forward the rolling programme of electrification; I specifically point my noble friend to the Traction Decarbonisation Network Strategy, which has a lot of information about the supply side. We are confident that, if we have the right programme in place, we can not only use the existing supply-side skills and expertise but grow them for the future.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

Does the Minister agree that all the options in this report are better than diesel trains, which are just as bad as diesel cars for the environment and health? Can she therefore explain why the Government have fixed 2030 as the year to phase out all diesel cars while they are still promoting hybrid trains, which are of course simply diesel trains for large parts of their journey?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The noble Baroness will be well aware that decarbonisation of different modes has to happen at different speeds. For example, the reality on the railway network is that freight is a challenge, because it takes much higher levels of energy to pull freight cars along. Therefore, it is right that we look at each mode and try to decarbonise them as quickly as we can, and that is what we will set out in our transport decarbonisation plan.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

Does my noble friend agree that had there been some diesel trains operating on the east coast main line, there would have been a greater number of trains operating, given the recent problems with the cracks? The electric trains can operate from any power source; which power source do the Government intend to use for electric trains?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am not sure that I entirely understand that question. The electric trains will use the power sources available. Decarbonisation of the power network is, of course, very important and a huge amount of work has already been done to decarbonise power generation. Therefore, when we combine decarbonising not only power generation but the transport system as a whole, we will reach our target of net zero by 2050.

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB) [V]]

Why Rail Electrification? rightly claims that electricity is the cleanest and most efficient power source for UK railways, but electricity itself must be cleanly produced. It cannot be stored and requires the use of energy to convert it to other potential energy. There are other linked components to the use and distribution of power; does the Minister agree that tackling each of these in parallel is essential in meeting the target of net-zero emissions by 2050?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I agree, and I refer the noble Lord to the answer to my noble friend’s question just now. But I also point out that this is not just about electricity and electrification; there is huge potential for hydrogen in the mix. The Government are very clear that we should invest in various new technologies. Indeed, we have now invested up to £3 million on various alternatives to straightforward rail electrification. On hydrogen, for example, we have invested £750,000 in HydroFLEX, the UK’s first hydrogen-powered train. These trains may be particularly useful for freight in the future.

[Lord Rosser (Lab) [V]]

In light of the Government’s commitment to decarbonisation, when will the Great Western main line into Bristol Temple Meads and from Cardiff to Swansea and Didcot to Oxford now be electrified? What will be the additional costs of now doing so at a later date, arising from the earlier decision to defer electrification of these key parts of the Great Western main line?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The Great Western electrification programme is now substantially complete. However, I recognise that some parts of the network will still need to be electrified. As with all projects within the rail system, each one is looked at from the bottom up, and analysis is undertaken and development work done. If it meets value for money and is affordable, it will go into the RNEP system and therefore be done in due course.

[Lord Bradshaw (LD) [V]]

When the Minister’s colleague Chris Heaton-Harris met the Rail All-Party Group, he was presented with a package costing less than £100 million which would enable 2 million train miles a year to be hauled by existing electric locomotives instead of diesel—the equivalent of decarbonising 80 to 100 million HGV miles a year. Has any progress been made with this?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I know that my honourable friend in the other place will be very grateful for the suggestions of the noble Lord about some of these quick wins—the fairly small, low-cost, infill electrification schemes that he refers to. We will of course look at these schemes, and they would be developed through the RNEP process.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)]

My Lords, all supplementary questions have been asked.

Rail Disruption: Social and Economic Impacts

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Thursday 13th May 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the social and economic impacts of disruption to services following the withdrawal of some Hitachi high-speed trains being removed from service after defects were discovered in them.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, the vast majority of services across the national rail network are unaffected. The trains affected are Hitachi Class 800 series units operated by Great Western Railway on intercity services as well as some LNER services, Hull Trains services and a small number of TransPennine Express services. Most of the services used by schoolchildren and local workers are local services which have not been affected by this issue. The Government have asked operators to prioritise services used by schoolchildren where possible.

[Baroness Randerson (LD) [V]]

I thank the Minister for that Answer and I appreciate the amount of joint working that has taken place to enable some replacement services to run. The abrupt and total withdrawal of Hitachi trains from several routes caused massive disruption to passengers and businesses in some regions. It is an added blow to train operators, which had hoped to be attracting passengers back on to services. This is a crucial time as we establish fresh working patterns and the Government need to lure us back on to public transport. This appears to be an expensive design or manufacturing error.

Does the Minister agree that it is essential the cost is not borne by train operators, passengers or taxpayers? If so, are the Government in discussions with Hitachi about this issue? What steps do the Government intend to take to compensate the businesses and passengers affected? Does she agree that the Government need to fund a promotional period of reduced fares to attract passengers back on to the services, which have been so badly affected?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, the agreements in place to use the affected trains contain provisions that protect the taxpayer. We expect those who have contractual performance and train availability obligations to fully compensate the taxpayer.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, for asking this Question. I understand from the technical press that 86 out of 93 of these affected trains have either a failure of the yaw dampers, which connect the bogie to the body shell—they are quite important parts—or the lifting points, with cracks of up to one foot long. On the routes affected this clearly means that there are very few, if any, trains. These are trains designed and procured by the Government—

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord, but could he keep his question succinct?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Unfortunately I missed the question, but I hope to provide some colour to what the noble Lord was saying. Indeed, there are two different types of crack. One is found on the yaw damper; those cracks were found three weeks ago and are not the reason for the withdrawal of the trains from service. The second cracks are on the lifting lugs and have led to the withdrawal of trains from service. I would like to reassure the noble Lord that there is a very stringent engineering risk assessment in place. These trains are checked every 24 hours and are being returned to service from today; we expect to have up to 25 coming back today. We hope that 60 GWR trains will be back by Monday and we believe that services will significantly improve.

[Lord Davies of Gower (Con) [V]]

The current situation has brought about an intolerable level of stress and inconvenience to the travelling public, not least here in Wales on the GWR routes. It is a relief that Hitachi has issued a statement this morning advising that a significant number of the IETs can return to service. What inquiries have been made of train leasing companies, such as Angel Trains and Porterbrook, to establish the possibility of recommissioning some of their redundant and in-storage HST 125 fleet to provide some alleviation of the current problem and possible future issues?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I would like to reassure my noble friend that I spoke to Mark Hopwood, the MD of GWR, this morning. He told me that the major routes of particularly high priority include those from south Wales and the south-west. We recognise that getting those services back is important. He is looking at other ways of procuring modern, clean rolling stock, although he pointed out that the return of HSTs is unlikely and he would hope to get more modern stock from elsewhere.

[Lord Bradshaw (LD) [V]]

My Lords, the question of compensation arises here. Is there a liquidated damages clause in the agreement between the Government and Hitachi about these trains? If not, can Hitachi be pressed to make some ex gratia compensation payment for the huge damage that this delay is inflicting on both passengers and railway staff, through no fault of their own?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Of course, we are in conversations with Hitachi, and we welcome its decision to put safety first and take the trains out of service while we properly understand what is going on. As noble Lords will be aware, 122 Hitachi trains are procured via the intercity express programme, while the remaining 60 are under conventional rolling stock leases. We will look into what potential compensation may be forthcoming from Hitachi, but the train operating companies are offering refunds to their passengers for cancelled services.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB) [V]]

My Lords, the noble Baroness and I were in happy agreement recently in your Lordships’ House about the fact that it was not necessary to copy France in limiting domestic air travel here because cities such as Manchester are closer and well connected by fast intercity services. However, of course, this utterly depends on reliable service—so is the Minister concerned that unreliability will inevitably force travellers back into their cars and on to still more polluting airlines?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

No one wants to see a vast modal shift towards cars, but I accept that, in certain circumstances, when we have a situation such as this, that will occur. However, it is a very rare occurrence for this sort of wide-ranging manufacturing or other fault to be found in the make-up of the units. I am convinced that the Hitachi manufacturers are doing all that they can to get these units back on the rails, and I believe that services will be back to normal in the medium term.

[The Lord Bishop of Durham]

My Lords, I declare an interest as a regular LNER user—indeed, I experienced disruption to the service on my trip down from Darlington. While it is essential that the defects are addressed, I am very aware of the jobs and investment brought to County Durham by Hitachi. Can the Minister confirm that this issue will not impact the investment in the region and the security of the jobs?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, in general, Hitachi trains have an incredibly good track record. Hitachi built the bullet trains in Japan, which, as noble Lords will know, have an exemplary safety record, and it has a very high engineering pedigree. While it will of course be up to Hitachi’s customers to decide where they make their purchases in the future, I for one believe that that sort of pedigree will not be diminished by these events.

[Lord Rosser (Lab) [V]]

What is the estimated likely total revenue loss following the withdrawal from service for repairs of the Hitachi trains? Who will foot the bill for that loss of revenue? I hope it will be neither the taxpayer nor passengers, and I would be grateful if the Minister could confirm that that is the position.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

It is very tricky to make a detailed assessment of the reduction in revenue, given where we are at the moment and the fact that GWR operates a turn-up-and-go service, so numbers are very difficult to estimate. We estimate that, from an LNER perspective, it is probably a reduction of 1,000 passengers a day, but, as noble Lords will know, this is a fast-moving situation, these cracks were found on only Friday night and Saturday morning and, obviously, much more work needs to be done on the impact in the medium term.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

I also declare an interest as a regular user of the east coast main line. I press my noble friend—because I understand that the department played a large part in designing the Azuma train—to address the part of the question asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, about whether Hitachi will make good the damage, which is a very serious structural concern? Can she also assure the House today that the Government will review where the carriages will be sourced for the HS2 project?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am not sure that I can give my noble friend all the assurances that she seeks on this matter. In general, Hitachi has a very strong track record in this area. The Department for Transport is not in the business of designing the details of trains—but if there is more information in this area, I will certainly get back to her. I reassure noble Lords that the removal of all these trains was carried out because safety is our highest priority; we are taking a very cautious approach to getting these units back on the tracks. However, we believe that we can do so safely and that we can undertake a medium-term forward repair plan to return them to 100% health.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, I declare that I am a member of the GWR APPG and a user of GWR’s services. In her Answer to the Question, the Minister said, quite rightly, that the “vast majority” of trains are unaffected, but that seemed to dismiss the experience of those travellers for whom the vast majority of their trains are affected. Perhaps the Minister would like to correct that impression. In doing so, could she outline, in detail, how those passengers will be compensated for this very difficult period?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I will not correct the record on that because I was trying to reassure people that the vast majority of train services are actually running throughout the country at this moment. Therefore, it is very important that people do not read the papers and think, “I can’t get on a train”. The most important thing is that you probably can, but check beforehand. However, it is also the case that we experience disruption on our railways periodically, sometimes due to strikes and sometimes to defects in the track—these are incredibly unfortunate. We do not want them to happen; we want our services to run as punctually and effectively as possible.

The operators are offering refunds and delay repay compensation for cancelled and delayed trains. There has been an enormous amount of collaboration with all the train operating companies: I pay particular tribute to CrossCountry rail, which has put on new services to Bristol and Swindon, a route on which it does not normally travel. Tickets are accepted by other train operating companies, and indeed some have offered support by offering rolling stock.

[Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale (Lab)]

My Lords, I hope the Minister can reassure me that the 7.30 am train from King’s Cross to Edinburgh will be running tomorrow. More generally and significantly, have there been discussions with the devolved Governments about the economic and transport consequences? Given the responsibilities of the Scottish Government in relation to rail services, what specific discussions does the Minister plan to have with them?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I wish I could reassure the noble Lord that the 7.30 will operate, but I am sure that the train operating companies are watching and will make sure that it does. I can reassure him that we always engage with our counterparts in the devolved Administrations in these circumstances. Priority has been given to resolving this at an operational level; it has been at an operational level that we have been collaborating. It is interesting to note that this issue has emerged also on the ScotRail class 385 fleet, with 10 out of the 70 units there experiencing a similar problem, but, thankfully, there has been no impact on services in Scotland.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, while safety is of course paramount, I have twice this week had to take a car from Lincoln to London and I shall return by car today. What we need is some degree of certainty. Can we please have for next week a programme of cancellations and running trains given at the beginning of the week?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

It is in the train operating companies’ interest to provide as much certainty as possible. I know that they are working incredibly hard on contingency planning such that, as we move to the new timetable—which also comes in next week—we will be able to offer as many services as possible. I am aware that the services from Lincoln have been particularly hit; I believe that it is now possible to get to Peterborough and then to change there, but I hope that the noble Lord’s services are back running as soon as possible.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware of the planned engineering works for the Whitsun bank holiday weekend on the East Midlands Railway line which mean that no trains will be running from St Pancras to Derby, Nottingham and Sheffield and of the additional pressure that that will place on the east coast main line? What steps are being taken at this point to mitigate the potential additional chaos and disruption on that busy weekend?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

We recognise that that weekend may be busy. It is also the case that bank holidays are often the best time to do much-needed engineering works. The Government have asked Network Rail to review the engineering works for the late-May bank holiday weekend and to work with operators to ensure that passengers can still travel. In anticipation of the potential return of passengers, Network Rail has decided to defer some of the previously planned engineering works where possible—sometimes they are scheduled many months in advance, and it is not possible. However, we have tried to minimise them as much as possible. We will monitor the progress of the engineering works throughout the bank holiday weekend so that as many passengers as possible can travel.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Private Notice Question has elapsed.