Integrated Rail Plan: North and Midlands

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Monday 22nd November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, I recall a particularly funny episode of “Yes Minister” in which the Prime Minister asked Jim Hacker to produce an integrated transport plan. It was called “The Bed of Nails”, and I was reminded of that episode over the weekend as I watched the Secretary of State valiantly trying and failing to sell this plan as a success for the north of England. It takes a lot of ingenuity to produce a plan that almost doubles the time it will take to get, for example, from Birmingham to York, and still call it an improvement on previous plans.

Despite the Secretary of State’s sleight of hand, the plan has not been well received. The Government have managed to unite the elected mayors of the north, the chambers of commerce in Yorkshire, Greater Manchester, Birmingham, east Lancashire, Doncaster, the east Midlands and even London, the Chartered Institute of Logistics and Transport, Conservative MPs for northern constituencies and the Conservative chair of the Transport Committee in opposing and criticising the Government’s plan.

Not surprisingly, one of the critics was Transport for the North, and for that it has been stripped of its powers, which seems a very strange approach to levelling up. I join the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, in asking the Minister to explain why control of the Northern Powerhouse Rail project will now lie solely with central government—what is it that makes Ministers so sure that they know better than the people of the north about what they need in relation to railways?

The most high-profile decision was, of course, to truncate HS2 by abandoning the eastern leg. Those cities that had expected to be directly linked to a new 21st-century rail line have developed investment plans predicated on that and expected an economic boost along those lines. They now have to start again following a massive no-confidence vote by the Government. As the noble Lord said, transport spend per head is scarcely more than one-third of the size that it is in London. In her answer to me last Thursday, the Minister admitted that abandoning HS2 and reducing the Northern Powerhouse Rail plans

“saves the taxpayer billions of pounds.”—[Official Report, 18/11/21; col. 407.]

I suggest to the Minister that this approach is totally unacceptable. What do the Government plan to do to redress the balance now that their levelling-up promises to the north of England lie in tatters?

HS2 was always as much about capacity as speed. The Government are going instead for a patchwork of schemes, with short stretches of electrification. Digital signalling, which has long been promised, and longer platforms for longer trains will create some extra capacity but it does not compare with what a whole new railway would do. The Government promised to electrify 13,000 kilometres of railway by 2050 and so far have done 2.2% of that. So we are 235 years behind schedule. I ask the Minister: after all the stretches referred to in the plan have been completed, what percentage will we be on?

Finally, one of the reasons for building a new line is that the upgrading of existing lines is enormously disruptive. As a veteran of 10 years of Great Western’s electrification, I can attest to that. What calculations have the Government made of the cost of disruption for the lines they propose to upgrade?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, and the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, for their considered responses to the integrated rail plan. I too had the opportunity, over the weekend, to read the documents in detail and consider the sorts of questions I might face today. Actually, noble Lords have not disappointed so far in the issues that they have raised—and I accept that they feel very strongly about this.

Having read the documents and considered this more carefully, I think the integrated rail plan is an elegant solution. We had a very outdated plan, the old plan, which did not properly take into account some developments, particularly from the national transport bodies, notably Transport for the North and Northern Powerhouse Rail, and Midlands Engine Rail, Midlands Connect and the Midlands Rail Hub. None of them had a proper look-in in the plans. We saw that costs were rising and that the whole thing did not fit well together, so it was absolutely right for the Government to go back, look at the plans, set them all out and consider what we are actually trying to achieve. The goal is not to build new railways; it is just something that enables people to get from A to B more quickly, more frequently and at a cheaper cost. That is what we are trying to do.

How we choose to do that is a combination of stretches of new railway, as noble Lords know, and some upgrades to existing railways. That is a very elegant situation that comes at a lower cost to the taxpayer. I will not and see no reason to apologise for that at all. It also happens much more quickly than it would otherwise, so we need to take a step back. There are a lot of winners here. I would like to be living in Nottingham, quite frankly; people there are going to have a great time. Good old Derby will have direct access to HS2, which it was nowhere close to prior to this. Also, all the places along the Midlands main line will get electrification and have more reliable journeys now. They did not even get a look-in in the old plans.

We have taken a more considered approach to the system as a whole. I accept that life has changed slightly for Leeds, but Leeds is also benefiting from this. We have said that we will spend £100 million on looking at how to get HS2 to Leeds. We will look at whether the current station can absorb the additional capacity and we will finally start work on the West Yorkshire mass transit system. This is great news for Leeds, so I do not share the doom and gloom of the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, about its economic future. Actually, having a train line that goes to Manchester is just one of the things that people in Leeds might want; they might also want to travel around their own city on a mass transit system. I think we have been able to help Leeds in this regard. The impact on economies will be set out in the business cases for all the different schemes, as we go forward.

On TfN and its change of role, this is not at all unusual within the Department for Transport. We have a good relationship with TfN and it has an important role in providing us with statutory advice. However, the Northern Powerhouse Rail programme will be in the Government’s major projects portfolio and it requires clear accountability to the Secretary of State. Therefore, the client will be the Department for Transport, but that does not cut out Transport for the North. It has a joint sponsorship role, and again it is important that it can offer advice and knows what is going on with the project. In terms of delivery, however, it must be accountable to the Secretary of State to make sure that we keep things moving as we need to.

There was a comment about the Government not being a fan of devolution, on which I beg to differ. The city region sustainable transport settlements have committed £5.7 billion to our major cities. That is truly transport devolution on a large scale.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, came up with a litany of delays that had happened previously. I do not disagree that sometimes large transport infrastructure projects suffer from delays. None of us involved in transport likes delays but sometimes they happen. However, I am not entirely sure why they would not then happen to elements of HS2. Given that the previous full “Y” going all the way up was not going to be delivered until the mid-2040s, my goodness, we could be looking to the mid-2060s before that was delivered then, had it been delayed. I am not sure that that is necessarily a reason for not liking the Government’s plans.

On the issue of disruption, all transport infrastructure projects are disruptive. We know that. However, the approach taken by this IRP will cause less disruption that previous plans would have. For example, the HS2 eastern leg in full would have caused significant disruption to the motorway network. It would have crossed it 13 times. I am the Roads Minister—that disruption would have been quite challenging. We know that enhancements to existing lines will ease bottlenecks and make rail services more reliable. We will work very closely with the rail industry to minimise disruption as the schemes are developed and delivered.

I turn now to the issue of digital signalling. If I may, I will write on this issue so I can provide the most up-to-date information that I have.

The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, asked what percentage will be electrified when this is all finished. In my brief I have the figure of 75%, which I want to check. It feels right—but you think, okay, we are going to go from quite a small percentage to 75%. We are going to be electrifying hundreds of miles of railway line, so this probably is right but, again, I will write to 100% confirm that number. This is a huge electrification programme, as I am sure the noble Baroness will understand.

Let us turn to money. The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, mentioned it and so did the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson. This is the sort of thing that I get a little bit confused by. We are in a strange parallel universe where it matters only how much you are spending rather than what you are spending it on. That strikes me as bizarre. People are saying to me “But you are not spending this money on this railway line,”. No, but we are providing more benefits to more people, more quickly for less money. Surely that is a good thing.

I say to the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, that I believe that the leader of the Opposition has in mind to establish something called the value for money office, should he ever become Prime Minister. He may well think that that is a very good idea. But I say to the noble Lord that, if he had the Government’s integrated rail plan at £96 billion—providing some pretty good service uplifts and some good improvements in journey times—versus the previous outdated plans costing £185 billion, and if he were to give those to this new-fangled value for money office, I wonder which one it would choose.

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[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I hope that we are able to prove the noble Lord, Lord Snape, wrong in that regard. Obviously, we have done a significant amount of work on this and we believe it can be done. In terms of the fact that we have previously been advocating for a different style of network, I do not see that is a particular issue. Sometimes when the facts change, you have to change what you are proposing. The issue here is: do we have endless amounts of money? No, we do not. Can we deliver very good improvements to service for just under half the amount of money? I think we can. The other thing is that we can use the money we are not spending for other vital investments, so it is not such that that money is suddenly disappearing.

The noble Lord talked about capacity, and this is a really important point: the capacity constraints on the west coast main line are far greater than on the east coast main line. We will be able to get capacity improvements on the east coast mainline. It is far more important that we improve capacity on the west coast main line, which is why we have developed the plans that we have.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, Bradford does not come out very well, or have any joy, from this. I was very unhappy with the way in which the Minister answered questions on Thursday; I thought she was condescending to the House, which was inappropriate. I am glad that she is now engaging with the reasoned arguments others are making.

There are a number of inaccuracies in this paper. It refers to “introducing” an electrified line from Leeds to Bradford—but I travel on an electrified line from Leeds to the north of Bradford most weekends. It also refers to “electrifying” the Leeds to York section. I happened to travel on that on Monday of last week and the gantries for the electric wires are already up—so I suspect that the investment for that has already been made and it is not new money. So I puzzle over the accuracy of some of what is being said.

I ask, however, about capacity across the Pennines, because clearly the biggest cost of the new line from Leeds to Manchester via Bradford would have been the tunnel through the Pennines. The capacity across the Pennines is extremely tight and, unless one doubles the Standedge tunnel, you are going to have a choke point on upgrading the line between Leeds and Manchester via Huddersfield. Do the Government intend to double the Standedge tunnel, or would they consider that?

A cost-benefit analysis of the Calder Valley and north-east Lancashire—the latter being one of the poorest areas in England—would show that a more northerly line between Leeds and Manchester would spread benefits economically in a way which upgrading the current line simply will not do.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Well, I am very happy to write to the noble Lord on the detail of his question, as I am not well versed on the tunnels et cetera in the area to which he referred. I apologise if he felt that I was condescending to the House on Thursday. It is, of course, always very funny to be asked lots of questions based on the media rather than the actual documents, which had not been published at that time—and of course the questions were about upgrading, and I could not answer them. Maybe the noble Baroness had read the documents, but I had not, so I could not answer.

Bradford will benefit from electrification of the line to Leeds, and improved journey times will mean that you can get from Bradford to Leeds in 12 minutes—that is quite some distance in 12 minutes. I wish I could get that far in London. So it will benefit, and I think that we will look at various other projects as well. Part of the whole issue we are looking is the core pipeline work, which is set out in the Integrated Rail Plan, but we will look at any other scheme and service that will offer further improvements. This is exactly what the National Infrastructure Commission suggested that we do. This is the Integrated Rail Plan, and this is the core pipeline of work and, if noble Lords have suggestions for other schemes that would be affordable, would further improve our ability to improve services, and would be deliverable, I would really appreciate it if noble Lords would forward them to us.

[Lord Lea of Crondall (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, is it not the case that the credibility of these proposals depends on long-term political consensus? We are not here until 2040 and 2060, sitting around this Chamber. Years ago, I did a couple of jobs for the World Bank on transport infrastructure investment, returns and so on. It is absolutely vital that you nail down the fact that it has got to have long-term political consensus. In this country we are not even trying to do that in terms of the Government opening the door to other people to try to agree on some proposals.

Does the Minister recognise what Hilary Benn said the other day, that the proposals put forward as a long-term plan—for nearly a hundred years, as the Victorians did—would have had

“Victorian railway engineers scratching their heads in disbelief”?—[Official Report, Commons, 18/11/21; col. 740.]

What will the Government do to ensure there is scope for getting together proposals—including some of these—systematically to achieve a long-term cross-party consensus? That is the only way that they will not fall flat on their face.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I hope that I have just outlined to the noble Lord that we will continue to look at schemes that we can put in place in addition to the core pipeline. The RNIP will be published in due course. I hope that will reassure noble Lords that there is a programme in place, and that we will take forward some of the commitments that we have already made. As I have said, I look forward to hearing suggestions from whichever side of the House.

[Lord McLoughlin (Con)]

One of the problems that the Government face is about expectations, and the rise in expectations as far as transport is concerned. The Secretary of State made a number of important announcements last week, some of which have been called for. The problems of overruns in railways—I certainly had my fair share of them when I was Secretary of State—is common to the industry. I wish Network Rail well in its attempts to keep these under control. I come to the point that HS2, which will be 75% built as originally put forward, was always about capacity. It is very important that the question of capacity be properly addressed. I see from the plan published by the Secretary of State last week that the Government are still looking at options for HS2 to Leeds. The areas that have blight at the moment, because they are being considered as options for that, will continue to have that blight. I hope that the Government will come to conclusions on those options as quickly as possible. I wish my noble friend well, and I wish the Government well in ensuring that the public transport that we all want to see is actually delivered.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I appreciate the wise words of my noble friend. It is the case to a certain extent that some people’s expectations were not met by this plan but, as I have said, there are many things to commend it. I have already mentioned Nottingham and Derby, and there are so many other places that will benefit from this plan. This really is building back better but also with better value for money. I know that a number of noble Lords have questions around capacity. I will include in my letter to noble Lords how we intend to improve capacity in various ways on different parts of the railway; it is all set out in the plan but it might be helpful if I draw it all together for noble Lords. I will also perhaps arrange an open meeting with Minister Stephenson so that noble Lords can quiz him; he is the person who knows this back to front.

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, in reaching the decision to end the HS2 track in the east Midlands rather than Leeds, and HS2 trains at Sheffield rather than Newcastle, what economic impact assessment was done by the Government of the effects on both Yorkshire and the north-east—given that private developer investment will inevitably follow the HS2 track due to the extra capacity that it will provide—or is it the case that no impact assessment on Yorkshire and the north-east has actually been done?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

As I explained previously, different places are getting different things. The impact from an economic perspective will therefore be varied. The integrated rail plan gives more certainty to people who want to invest in various places. Quite frankly, I were a business, I would still look very favourably on Leeds. It is about to have a mass transit system that no one has previously managed to give it.

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

My Lords, I was back in Yorkshire at the weekend, as I am sure everyone would expect. It is hard to convey the anger and sense of betrayal felt across the whole of the north, but particularly in the whole of Yorkshire. There are so many issues to discuss but, frankly, Leeds does not need to be told from down here exactly what is good for it. While a tram will be very welcome it does not in any way, shape or form compensate for the loss of connectivity or address the congestion of Leeds station, given the cancelling of the proposals that the plan put forward last week.

I was going to ask the Minister about the upgrading of the lines and the chaos it will cause. We all remember the timetabling chaos. If the work east of Marsden is not addressed with alternative routes, goodness knows what is going to happen to us. Throughout the document, which I read, there is reference to post-Covid changes of transport use—the fact that the tram will take away the need for investment in the station. Is the Minister aware that levels of passenger use going through Leeds station are already back to pre-Covid levels, and that at weekends it is actually above that level? Please, what are the plans doing to address the fact that if we do not get the investment we need, Leeds City station will fall over within the next four or five years?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I just reiterate that we have absolutely not ruled out getting HS2 to Leeds. It is part of the wider pipeline of work that we are considering; obviously, the station is critical to that as well; as is the mass transit. Among the key things that I need to reassure noble Lords of in this are the capacity and track improvements, along with the digital signalling and all the things that we hope to do on the east coast main line. As I said earlier, it is not as needful of extra capacity as the west coast main line. We believe that by making the improvements, we will see faster journey times to Leeds, Darlington, Newcastle and Edinburgh. We will also see those journey times reduce far sooner than we would have done with the old plans.

[Baroness Pinnock (LD)]

My Lords, I too live in Yorkshire and am proud to do so. I can confirm that there is an extraordinary sense of anger and betrayal as regards the plan for rail infrastructure in the county. I want to address the issue of rail freight, which has one page in the document—one page. There is a line in the document which says that the aim is to take road haulage off the M62 and transfer it to rail. I hope the Minister can answer on this, because within the plan there are no specific aims for the volume of haulage that it is intended to get off road and on to rail. There are no specific proposals for hubs and terminals where the exchange can take place. There is nothing about logistics, which are essential, and no specifics for rail infrastructure other than a possibility—I think that is the word in the plan—of a third track on the part of the trans-Pennine route from Huddersfield to Marsden. Of course, following Marsden is the Standedge tunnel, which has already been raised.

Can the Minister provide details as to how this modal shift from road to rail is going to occur, in what volume and to what timescale? While I am at it, she mentioned that £200 million has been allocated for mass transit in Leeds so I quickly ask her: since £100 million of that has already been allocated to a discussion about how to get HS2 to Leeds, and there is only £100 million for the Leeds transit, what will that buy?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The work on Leeds mass transit will be driven by West Yorkshire Combined Authority. It will be its plan, but we will support it on that and ensure that we can get the best possible outcome for the people of Leeds in terms of getting mass transit in place. As the noble Baroness knows, West Yorkshire Combined Authority received a very good settlement from the CRSTS. As that extends for only five years and this will need longer development than that, we commit to continue working with the authority on the mass transit system.

The noble Baroness mentioned rail freight. She is right that this does not leap out of the pages of the IRP, but it is not really supposed to. Rail freight is absolutely a feature of the Williams-Shapps rail review and the work we are doing there. As we put in place Great British Railways, we will focus on national co-ordination of rail freight, again looking for projects to make sure that this can happen as easily as possible.

As I have mentioned numerous times, this is not the end and there are other projects that could be added to this to improve it. We will introduce a new, rules-based track access regime with a statutory underpinning for freight and open-access operators. Essentially, we want to maximise the usage of a very extensive and expensive national asset. Rail freight is at the core of much of what we are doing on the railways, as well as many of our wider discussions on freight.

[Lord Walney (CB)]

My Lords, as has been said, reduced passenger numbers are mentioned at a number of points in the document as justification for some of the changes. Can the Minister confirm whether changed modelling in predictions of journeys has been part of that? If that has not been locked into the numbers, or if there is so much uncertainty over those numbers, does that not mean that there is a grave risk that even the reduced expansion which was announced last week could be further reduced if hybrid working creates more of a structured change in passenger flows than previously thought?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The noble Lord raises a really important question. I have stood at this Dispatch Box and been asked many times how we will change capacity based on what has happened post Covid. We are confident that things will continue to change and that we will see greater usage. We are also quite sure that that usage may not look exactly the same as it did.

One of the biggest issues with the old plan was that it was not properly integrated with other local, regional and national transport networks. We think we can do that much better. Detailed modelling and up-to-date forecasting will happen whenever a business case goes through its various stages. I would not expect any wholesale changes, but this may lead us to think about what infill and other schemes we might consider in order to maximise our initial investment in the IRP. That might be something we should look at in light of future forecasts for demand.

Rail Infrastructure: North of England

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Thursday 18th November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to improve rail infrastructure in the north of England.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, this Government will be investing more than £35 billion in rail over the spending review period, including rail enhancements and vital renewals to improve passenger journeys and connectivity across the country, focusing on the Midlands and the north to level up the economy. Furthermore, the Government have today published our independent rail plan, a £96 billion programme to transform services in the Midlands and the north.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, there has not been a major new rail line in the north of England since the Victorians. The Government promised to change that. Northern Powerhouse Rail was announced seven years ago, and the Government have re-announced it 60 times, but today’s announcement turns its back on that. Does the Minister accept that haphazard dollops of money—a scattergun approach to rail upgrades—will not create a transformation, and that cancelling the HS2 eastern leg is seen in cities such as Sheffield, York, Leeds and Bradford as nothing else than another broken promise?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I advise the noble Baroness to read the documents, which, when I left my office just now, had not actually been published. If she were to look at the integrated rail plan, she would see that it is comprehensive and very well thought through. It sets out exactly how the different pots of money will be used to create the sort of system that delivers for people in the north far sooner than other plans were going to. It also saves the taxpayer billions of pounds.

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[Lord Haselhurst (Con)]

My Lords, I think I should say that I am very grateful for this further opportunity to speak. If, as it now appears, the Government are backing away from large-scale rail infrastructure projects in the north in favour of less-costly targeted schemes, does this allow other regions, such as the east of England, to dare to hope that the damage they have suffered from the Beeching cuts will be reversed sooner rather than later?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My noble friend is not quite right to say that the Government are backing away from away from large-scale projects, as the IRP—when he is able to read it—will demonstrate to him. However, my noble friend is right that Network Rail has recently completed a study on the west Anglia main line and we are considering its findings. Network Rail is required to conduct similar studies for all parts of the network, and these provide helpful advice to government on potential investments for the future.

[Viscount Stansgate (Lab)]

Has the Minister seen the front-page banner headline in today’s Yorkshire Post? It says: “PM breaks his own rail pledge.” I want to ask a question about Leeds—and I gladly declare to the House what you might call a family connection. To be practical, can the Minister explain what impact today’s plans are going to have on a station such as Leeds where, as I understand it, HS2 would have had the effect of freeing up platforms for much-needed extra capacity? Without HS2, the existing platforms are going to have to cope with all existing and future demands.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, it is very difficult to have a sensible discussion on this topic on the basis of front pages of the media. It is impossible that the noble Viscount has been able have a look at the documents which, as we know are being published, possibly as we speak. However, I can assure him that we are well aware that Leeds is an incredibly important station. It is the fourth busiest in the country outside London. Passenger demand has increased by 30% over the last 10 years and the Government are committing to £100 million to look at the options for how to run HS2 services to Leeds, to build capacity and also to finally develop and deliver a mass transit system for Leeds.

[Baroness Pinnock (LD)]

I have a little quiz for the Minister. I am sure she will be able to come up with the right answer, but here goes. Which city has half a million people, considerable deprivation, a train service that takes over 20 minutes at just over 30 miles an hour to go nine miles to take people to jobs and connect them to the rest of the country and where 74% of jobseekers give poor transport links as a major barrier to getting on in life? Having named the city—and I am sure the Minister will be able to—perhaps she will, since she is so excited about the integrated rail plan, be able to confirm that that city is going to have its brand- new railway station which will give it the connectivity it needs and deserves.

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[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, I have failed. I hear from behind me Halifax.

[Noble Lords]

Bradford!

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Bradford—ah, when the noble Baroness has been able to read the documents that are about to be published, she will see in there that we will be electrifying the route from Bradford to Leeds. The journey time will be hugely more reliable—it will take 12 minutes.

[Lord Rosser (Lab)]

The economy of the West Midlands, and Birmingham in particular, has been boosted by the construction and pending completion of the fast new rail service that is HS2. Despite what the Minister has been seeking to say, it appears that Leeds and the local West Yorkshire economy will now be denied the estimated full £54 billion of economic benefits of their HS2 link. Leeds, for example, will be a less attractive venue than it would have been for new and expanding businesses without its promised high-speed rail links. Northern Powerhouse Rail delivered in full was also set to deliver £22 billion for northern economies, including Bradford, by 2060, according to a report by Mott MacDonald. What is the Government’s estimate of the loss of projected economic benefits to Leeds and the West Yorkshire economy of the decision to backtrack on previous promises on the HS2 high-speed rail link to Leeds and on full delivery of Northern Powerhouse Rail? What is the loss of those economic benefits that were projected?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

As the noble Lord will see when he gets to read the documents that are being published today, a huge number of projects are being brought together, and so many of those are around Leeds. It is the case that the core part of Northern Powerhouse Rail will be constructed, and that will provide those fast links through to Manchester. It is the case that there will be significant upgrades to the east coast main line and, of course, there will be electrification of the Midlands main line. Combining that with the construction of a mass transit system, I think, somehow, that Leeds is going to be all right.

[Lord Framlingham (Con)]

My Lords, I look forward to reading today’s document, and I hope it is good news for the north and the Midlands. I appreciate that I am a lone voice on this matter but, given that HS2 has been the disaster that everybody thought it would be, is doing huge damage to the environment, is going to bring little benefit to anybody and is costing now, or is supposed to cost, £150 billion and counting, could the Government not consider—if they cannot scrap it, which I think they should, even though it has cost money already—pruning it back seriously as quickly as possible and using the money saved and the expertise gained to look after railways in the West Midlands and the north of England?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I suppose we are doing a small amount of what would make my noble friend happy. We have looked at the different options. I would be the first person to stand there and warmly welcome a brand-new, big, expensive, shiny rail system— I love them. However, sometimes they take many decades to build, and they can be very expensive, and sometimes they just fly by various communities. What we have done is look at the amount of money that we have, the options that we have and the opportunities that we have to join up many more of the communities that were being missed out by previous plans. I am sure when we come back to discuss the integrated rail plan, we can go into that in more detail.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

Can the Minister confirm that upgrading an existing Victorian railway as opposed to building a brand-new railway is not a pain-free option? It will lead inevitably to weekend closures, disruptions to services, replacement bus services and all the paraphernalia of building a railway while you are trying to run one at the same time. How long will this disruption continue? Can the Minister also please tell us why it takes us far longer to build high-speed railways in this country compared with all our competitor countries and longer even than it took the Victorians who built them with picks and shovels?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The noble Lord is quite right to highlight the disruption caused by construction. It is the case, whether you are upgrading the east coast main line or, indeed, constructing a brand-new, HS2-type railway that there is disruption. We try to keep the disruption to the minimum. Obviously, when the RNEP is published and all of the programme is set out, we will be able to see how long each element of the plan is going to take and when the disruption will happen. Of course, the Government will try to minimise that as much as possible.

Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) (Amendment) (No. 4) Regulations 2021

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Tuesday 9th November 2021 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) (Amendment) (No. 4) Regulations 2021.

Relevant document: 17th Report from the Secondary Legislation Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, first, I bring to your Lordships’ attention a matter relating to one of the SIs to be debated in Grand Committee today. It relates to the SI that covers the removal of the car and trailer driving test, which was due to come into force on 15 November and was debated in the other place yesterday. For procedural reasons, the SI will now be unable to be approved by the other place by 15 November, so we are exploring all options with the House authorities about bringing in an identical SI with an amended date in the future. I hope that noble Lords agree with me that it remains appropriate to debate the substance of these SIs, as planned, in Grand Committee today.

These two statutory instruments, along with the Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) (Amendment) (No. 3) Regulations 2021, which follows the negative procedure, are a package of measures designed to increase driving examiner availability and allocate this time to test heavy goods vehicle drivers, thereby helping to reduce the acute HGV driver shortage in this country. This is a global issue. It has affected the haulage industry for many years, but it has been further exacerbated by the coronavirus pandemic, which meant that driver testing had to be suspended for much of last year. During this time, the shortage increased further as new drivers could not join the industry to replace those leaving.

The shortage of HGV drivers affects the supply chains not only of fresh food but of fuel, medicines and medical equipment across Great Britain. We therefore need to tackle this matter with urgency, and these SIs are part of the 30 interventions that the Government are putting in place to tackle the shortage of drivers.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Rosser (Lab)]

My Lords, most of my comments will be directed towards the (Amendment) (No.2) regulations and to the report of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, which homed in particular on that order.

Under these regulations, the obligation is removed for some car drivers towing a trailer to have to take the additional test. As the Minister said, that is to free up capacity and enable more test appointments to be fitted in each month for heavy goods vehicle licences in a bid to address the current shortage of HGV drivers. No doubt the Minister in her response may wish to comment on the extent to which that shortage has been eased or the extent to which it continues.

The regulations also remove the requirement in relation to the staged access route to licence acquisition for heavy goods vehicle and bus licences, which will also free up driving examiner time and shorten the amount of time that it takes for a driver to become qualified to drive the largest heavy goods vehicles.

I understand that the category B towing test will not be abolished, because it is still needed by anyone wishing to drive a trailer in the EU. The regulations simply remove the obligation to take the test before towing in the UK, and will be reviewed after three years and then every five years after that, which frankly suggests that the Department for Transport see these changes to all intents and purposes as being permanent, rather than being a short-term measure to address the current heavy goods vehicle driver shortage—unless, of course, the Department for Transport envisages that shortage going on for years and years.

The Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee has drawn the attention of the House to the regulations, not least in respect of the potential safety implications. There are, apparently, about 1,000 collision injury accidents or incidents involving trailers each year. It is not clear whether the Government do or do not expect that figure to be affected by the removal of the towing test. Frankly, at the moment, I do not think the Government even have a view, since the Department for Transport has indicated that a risk assessment on road safety will form part of the impact assessment, which is fine, apart from the fact that the impact assessment will not be cleared for publication until the end of this month at the earliest. I note what the Minister said at the beginning, and that the regulations were intended to come into effect this coming Monday.

The Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee said:

“We view this as poor practice.”


It is right. Once again, the Department for Transport has been slow to react, caught out by a driver shortage that it did not address in time, despite it being in large measure of the Government’s own making, thanks to their own particular brand of hard Brexit. The committee commented:

“It is part of the purpose of an IA”—


an impact assessment—

“to provide information on what options, including non-legislative options, were considered and why they were not adopted. Because the IA has not been made available to the House alongside the instrument, we are unclear about why possible alternatives were rejected … From the date this instrument comes into effect, any car driver will be able to tow a trailer but DfT has provided no estimate of the additional numbers that that might attract or the likelihood of incidents that might follow.”

However, the department asserts:

“There is not currently any statistical evidence to suggest that competence and skills will worsen if drivers do not take a statutory test to tow a trailer … it is therefore difficult to identify how much the car trailer test … has made a difference since it was introduced in 1997 or that there is a causal link between road safety and the test.”


I do not know for how many years that has been the Department for Transport’s view—perhaps the Minister could respond to that point in the Government’s reply—but if the Government do not know whether there are any safety benefits to the statutory test to tow a trailer, and have not taken any steps over the past 11 years to find out, that does not appear to say much for their much-vaunted campaign to reduce bureaucracy and unnecessary red tape.

Safety was, however, a concern of a significant percentage of those responding to the consultation on the amendment to the regulations: a third of the 8,750-odd respondents expressed safety concerns. As I understand it—I am sure that I will be corrected if I am wrong—the DVSA advises that anyone intending to drive a car with a trailer for the first time should still first take training from a driving instructor. What steps are being taken to publicise this advice?

Moving on, is it not the reality that the Government hope that people affected by these regulations will, either individually or through their firms, still undertake the aspects of the required training that these regulations will remove? This was indicated frankly in the Minister’s response to the chair of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, in which there was a reference to the Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency

“exploring industry-led accredited training that could offer a standardised non-statutory testing approach. The DVSA has received strong support for an accreditation training scheme which is also generating considerable interest from companies who tow as part of their business and we are progressing discussions urgently.”

That letter also stated:

“We know through DVSA’s stakeholder engagement, that there is a strong indication from professional business users that they will continue to undergo Category B+E training to ensure staff are safe and competent and that their corporate responsibilities are fulfilled.”


This certainly indicates that, as far as professional businesses are concerned, they regard the B+E training as necessary to ensure that staff are safe and competent. The Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee concluded:

“The Department failed to provide any indication of the instrument’s wider effects when the instrument was laid and, in response to our follow-up questions, DfT was unable to explain what effect the removal of the BE licence will have on road safety.”


I conclude by simply asking whether the Government will in their response comment on the recommendations of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee in its report on the Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2021. The first was,

“We recommend that the DfT should review the current complex arrangements for what car and van drivers are permitted to tow and, if needed, replace them with a simpler licensing system. That decision should be based on evidence rather than the current experimental approach”.


Secondly, it said that the department should

“provide an annual Written Statement setting out towing accident figures as a reassurance that it will be in a position to undertake remedial action swiftly if a problem emerges”

and, thirdly, that the Minister should provide “more specific details about” the “wider safety implications” of the instrument, since the House

“has insufficient information to enable proper assessment of the policy”.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I thank all noble Lords for their contributions today and for enabling this debate to go ahead in the circumstances. I am very grateful, and I have appreciated the input of all noble Lords. I have listened to their concerns and suggestions very carefully, and I will write, as there is a bit of extra detail that I will give.

Returning to the overall driver shortage, the Government have been aware of it since 2010, but the issue is that it so is multifaceted that it is very difficult to pin down. We estimate the size of the acute shortage to be around 39,000, but there are numbers out there of 70,000 and 100,000, so what is not being delivered if those drivers are not available? I have asked the sector many times. The reality is that the lack of those drivers is about sector resilience and ensuring that people who are in the sector are not feeling that their shifts are too long, or whatever. We believe that the acute shortage is around 39,000. I am not going play EU bingo with the various shortages in the other countries. Suffice it to say that there are shortages in other countries, and they are something we are all dealing with.

To briefly pick up on the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, about visas, I will check that, because we do not do late parliamentary questions. I think it is because it might have gone to Defra, and that will be the reason—not that it does late parliamentary questions, but there is the transfer, if you know what I mean.

There is an international shortage. We sort of know the size of the shortage, but I would love firmer data on it. It is incredibly difficult to assess a precise number in this fast-moving environment. It has got better. One of the things that I have been following very closely is the number of people asking for application forms from the DVLA to apply for an HGV provisional licence, which has gone up massively, as has the number of licences and provisional licences going out of the other end. Now we have to get those people into the training system and then into the testing system. Having sorted out DVLA and testing, I am now turning my attention to the bit in the middle, which is obviously a private sector affair, but we will be working with it so that it increases its capacity as much as possible.

I am so sorry to hear about my noble friend’s issue with his driving licence. I have some good news: my daughter passed her driving test a couple of days ago, and she received her licence like that. I am happy to take up any concerns noble Lords have about their treatment by the DVLA, but I am pleased to say that on HGV licences it is back to normal processing times. That also applies to buses.

On the road safety aspect of this, it is incredibly complicated and we are working at pace. I appreciate that we do not have an impact assessment that noble Lords can point to, so I will do what I can to assuage noble Lords’ concerns.

Again, there is a significant challenge with data here. People will often come up with anecdotes about how they saw a trailer doing X, Y, Z—I have seen cars and buses doing all sorts of dreadful things—but actual data is one of our big challenges. As the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, pointed out, in STATS19, 865 incidents involved a car or vehicle with a trailer, which is 0.45% of the total incidents in the entire year. That is a very small amount, but it does not matter; it still has to be considered.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My noble friend makes a good suggestion. I am responsible for National Highways, but it does not collect incident data; it all comes from the police. We will of course look at any data that we can get from various sources. This will be part of the work we do in the coming period because the other issue in all this is that incidents often happen because of poor trailer maintenance. That has nothing to do with the B+E test; it is caused by people driving around trailers that are not roadworthy. DVSA enforcement picks up vehicles that are not roadworthy all the time, and may prohibit them from being on the road, but again, that is not related to the B+E driving test. I am happy to have a meeting with my noble friend about the H licence.

The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, brought up the response to the consultation. The consultation closed on 7 September and we announced it on 10 September. We were able to do that so quickly because much of it came through electronically, and we were monitoring responses as we went. There is a short summary of our response on the web, but we will issue a fuller response in due course.

I am not entirely sure about the issue with us reducing the standard of bus driver trainers. If the noble Baroness writes to me, I will look into that more, because we have not changed the standards for trainers in the bus sector at all. Again, they have no delay in getting licences or tests; it is the bit in the middle. But many bus companies have good training departments, so I am pleased about that.

A number of noble Lords mentioned the impact assessment. We recognise that we need one and that it cannot be rushed because it requires an awful lot of analysis. We will try to publish it as soon as possible, once it has been through the Regulatory Policy Committee. Once again, I am happy to have a meeting with noble Lords once that is available.

On recognition overseas, my noble friend Lord Naseby asked about Northern Ireland, which is responsible for its own road regulations. It would therefore make its own decision about this. GB licences continue to be recognised in Northern Ireland. Drivers who travel abroad will be covered under international road traffic regulations. We are in discussions with other countries to make them aware of these changes and will report back if there are significant changes to this.

The accreditation scheme is one of the other factors we need to think about when it comes to road safety. When it is set up, it will be targeted at everybody who wants to tow a trailer of any weight when, previously, training was very much for people who needed it to pass the test or tow a heavier trailer. We will be looking at all people towing trailers, particularly the 16 million of us—I sense noble Lords are in the same bucket as me—who have grandfather rights: “I am going to tow a trailer. I have always been able to tow a trailer. I have just chosen not to, as I prefer larger articulated lorries when I am given the opportunity”. This is one of the other factors that we need to consider. It may well be that we will see a significant increase because all sorts of people will take up this accredited scheme because it is available and widely communicated. We will work with the industry and all sorts of people to make sure that people are aware of the scheme.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked about employers, who we know are very keen on this—but that is not unusual. Employers often provide a higher level of training for their workforce for all sorts of different reasons. It is not just the case that you pass your driving test and head into a haulage firm, for example, and that is it, your training is done. So, whether it be for a vehicle and a trailer or an articulated lorry, it is always the case that more training goes on, so I am not surprised to hear that that is what the industry will do.

I have rattled through most of what I wanted to say. I will definitely pick up Hansard to make sure that I have gone through all of the points, and I would be very happy to meet noble Lords in due course, perhaps to chat about this again, when the accreditation scheme is developed a bit further and when we have the impact assessment. We can look through all of the information we have at that time.

Motion agreed.

Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2021

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Tuesday 9th November 2021 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2021.

Relevant document: 15th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee (special attention drawn to the instrument)

Motion agreed.

Temporary Cycle Lanes in London

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Thursday 4th November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cruddas]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions they have had, if any, with (1) Transport for London, and (2) the Mayor of London, in relation to the abolition of temporary cycle lanes in London.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, decisions on installing or removing cycle lanes in the capital are a matter for Transport for London and the London boroughs. Officials from the department have regular meetings with TfL to discuss this and other matters. The delivery of cycle lanes across London is also overseen by a steering group, which comprises senior representatives from government and TfL.

[Lord Cruddas (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for her response. To clarify, I am a keen cyclist myself and, during the lockdown, I even bought myself a new bicycle. To clarify my concerns, I refer only to the temporary cycle lanes. If they become permanent, they will be even more of a nuisance. In that context, it seems to me that, given that the Government have provided emergency funding to TfL during the pandemic, there is an opportunity to contribute to any debate about their continued existence in a meaningful way. Can my noble friend confirm that the meetings and discussions that she says have taken place have addressed that issue?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I think I can reassure my noble friend that the meetings are taking place. They take place fortnightly, and they discuss a wide range of issues. It is the case that cycle lanes were put in at the start of the pandemic on a temporary basis—indeed, on a trial basis. The vast majority of those have now become permanent cycle lanes; I think that maybe only about 1 mile of cycle lane has been removed, and that was on Euston Road.

[The Lord Bishop of London]

The Prime Minister recently announced his desire to invest £1 billion to boost electric car usage. Given the push for cleaner and greener travel, will Her Majesty’s Government first address the number of faulty charging points for electric cars in London and, secondly, promote co-operation among suppliers, so that potential users are not dissuaded by the current requirement to download multiple apps from multiple companies?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The right reverend Prelate has gone a little bit beyond my brief this morning, but I can reassure her that we work very closely with the manufacturers of the chargers—indeed, the operators of the chargers. Of course, we need the chargers to work, and we need to make sure that we work with local authorities to make sure that they do so.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

But, my Lords, did not the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea jump the lights by removing so precipitately the successful and popular bicycle lane in Kensington High Street, which was a crucial link in the east-west cycle route? At the next meeting of the Active Travel Oversight Group, on which my noble friend’s department sits, will she reopen discussions with the royal borough to see if the scheme can be reintroduced, with amendments if necessary?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Ah, the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea—that well-known hub and hive of interest in cycling. Indeed, it has about 100 miles of road in the borough, but not a metre of cycle lane. But it is the case that the Active Travel Oversight Group, to which my noble friend refers, has discussed the issue of cycle lanes in that particular council. It is also the case that TfL has thus far not provided any active travel funding from the latest settlement to that council.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, I congratulate the Minister and TfL on these temporary cycle lanes. As other noble Lords have said, they are really good. Will the Minister confirm that as many of them as possible will be made permanent and that, where there are missing links, which are so important for safe cycling, she will discuss with TfL some cycle routes to link them, which are also safe and will therefore encourage cycling?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Of course, we have discussions with TfL on what the network looks like as a whole. It is, of course, the decision of the local borough, in many cases, as to whether it puts a cycle lane in place, and it must consult the local community. But I am pleased to say that the surveys that we have done to date show that twice as many people support increased cycling and walking as oppose it.

[Baroness Barker (LD)]

Does the Minister agree that air quality in London remains poor and that, to achieve better air quality as soon as possible, there has to be a modal shift away from cars towards bikes and e-bikes? Does she agree that maintaining cycle lanes is a critical factor in people feeling safe enough to cycle in London?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

It is the case that London has an incredibly good public transport system. I found out the other day that, of London car owners, 90% of their journeys are within London. One has to ask some of them at least why that would be the case, when there are very good buses and, obviously, an excellent Tube network. So modal shift does play an important part, not only for carbon emissions but also for air quality improvements.

--- Later in debate ---

[Noble Lords]

Hear, hear.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I sense that the House is divided on this topic.

My Lords, well-designed cycle lanes and low-traffic neighbourhoods benefit everybody. Sometimes traffic increases, but evidence shows that the increase is temporary and short-lived as the traffic adapts. Of course, we must be cognisant of increased congestion if it occurs for a prolonged period—for example, as it did on the Euston Road. In that particular case, the cycle lane was removed.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, given the conflict between the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea and the mayor, and that all new transport schemes have winners and losers, has the Department for Transport provided adequate decision-making criteria for the resolution of interagency disputes?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The Government’s role in this is to ensure that the guidance relating to the network management duty is appropriate. We have reviewed and refreshed that guidance, and it does reflect the Government’s desire for local highway authorities to provide safe space for cyclists and pedestrians. It also sets out that boroughs need to consult and must give any scheme sufficient time to bed in before they think about removal.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, like my noble friend Lord Young, I am a former chairman of the All-Party Cycling Group in the House of Commons. However, not all measures to encourage cycling, which I have been doing since I got to Parliament in 1992, are worth while. I particularly pick up on Park Lane, where there is a cycle lane in the park not 50 yards away. This is mad—all we are doing is achieving pollution and congestion in Park Lane. I very rarely go up Park Lane but, when I do, I see that it is a shocking waste of money and people’s time and, indeed, it is polluting the atmosphere.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, there is much focus on Park Lane this morning. Of course I will take the concerns of my noble friends back to the department and it will be discussed at the Active Travel Oversight Group.

[Lord Austin of Dudley (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, as another former chair of the All-Party Cycling Group, I would like to invite noble Lords to come with me for a bike ride to discover the joys of cycling in London. They will find that it is good for their health and public health, it cuts congestion and emissions, and it helps to meet the targets that the Government set this week at COP. So I ask the Minister: how do the Government propose to persuade reluctant local authorities to provide more safe infrastructure for cycling, so that they hit the Government’s own target to double the number of trips made wholly or partly by cycling from 2013 figures by 2025?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The route to your Lordships’ House is clearly the chairmanship of that APPG. The Government want to encourage improved cycle lanes and cycling infrastructure and, for those reluctant local authorities, we make it very clear to them that future funding is conditional on historic performance. If they do not put in the sort of measures that we would wish to see, frankly, they will not get any money in the future.

[Lord Jones of Cheltenham (LD) [V]]

My Lords, the report Cycling Injury Risk in London showed that protected cycling infrastructure reduced the odds of injury on the morning commute by up to 65%, whereas advisory lanes increased injury odds by 34%. Have the Government carried out a cost analysis of increasing protected cycle infrastructure against the benefits to the NHS of increasing the number of cyclists?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The Government expect that new cycle lanes are properly segregated to ensure that cyclists are as safe as possible.

Railways: East Coast Main Line

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Wednesday 3rd November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Beith]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions they have had with (1) Network Rail, and (2) Train Operating Companies, about the delay to the proposed East Coast Main Line timetable changes.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, the east coast main line is a crucial route for passengers and freight and is already playing a critical role in helping passengers return to rail, as well as leading the revenue recovery vital to restoring the financial health of the railway. The department holds weekly discussions with Network Rail and train operators, which are focused on modifying the original proposals in response to stakeholder feedback and mitigating outstanding risks to delivering the timetable reliably.

[Lord Beith (LD)]

My Lords, the timetable was withdrawn by Network Rail because it could not be operated reliably on the existing infrastructure and because there was such a hostile public reaction from areas that faced fewer trains, longer journeys and no improvement in connectivity across the north. Now that there has been a welcome rethink, what guidance are Ministers giving in these meetings to the industry? Should the industry plan a simpler timetable, taking account of the limitations of the infrastructure, or should it assume that the limitations on the infrastructure will all be fixed?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, we are currently in the fairly early stages of the very complex discussions around the consultation. The noble Lord is quite right: when you ask the British public a question and for their feedback, they rightly give it. We have had over 10,000 responses to the consultation. While the feedback was balanced, views were polarised, and I am afraid that it is impossible to keep absolutely everybody happy. The discussions continue—as I said, they are on a weekly basis—and proposals will be coming to Ministers in due course.

[Lord Rosser (Lab)]

There appears to be a conflict here between increasing services from Scotland and the north-east to London and the potentially adverse impact this would have on trans-Pennine services from Newcastle to Manchester and Liverpool due to track capacity constraints in the north-east. Why have the Government failed to address these issues—which do not spring up overnight—over the last 11 years, particularly bearing in mind that they now also impact on Northern Powerhouse Rail, about which the Government to date have said so much and done so little?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The Government have invested £4 billion in the east coast main line and are planning to invest a further £1.2 billion in issues such as capacity at Stevenage, the King’s Cross track remodelling and the Werrington grade separation works. These upgrades will deliver better journey times, reliability and capacity improvements.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, I declare that I am a regular user of LNER and congratulate it on its reliability and punctuality, apart from during weather difficulties. My noble friend recently reported that some of the additional capacity will go to the south-west of England, yet passengers and LNER have suffered two years of disruption from Network Rail improvements into King’s Cross, with the promise of extra capacity between London and the north of England on the east coast main line route. Will she give her word that this additional capacity will be delivered?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, throughout these timetable considerations, the Government need to balance the feedback we get from people and organisations with the journeys that passengers actually take; sometimes those two do not have a lot of connection. But my noble friend is quite right to note that the demand on LNER is coming back more strongly than in other cases. Of course we are taking that into account and, if needs be, we will make sure that the capacity improvements on the services she talks about are put in place.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, it is five times more expensive to go to COP 26 using east coast main line train services than it is to fly. Since train travel is much more environmentally friendly than flying, how can the Government justify the Chancellor’s decision to make domestic air travel even cheaper by cutting APD? Since the Government subsidise the railways with taxpayers’ money, how can they justify giving tax breaks to their competitors, which will inevitably undermine the viability of railway lines such as the east coast main line?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

As the noble Baroness knows, the Government were really clear in the transport decarbonisation plan what the long-term future looks like for various modes of transport. We recognise in that plan that the cost of motoring has fallen at the same time, for example, as the cost of fares have gone up by 20% and even more than that for bus and coach journeys. But, of course, gradually and over time we will make trains and buses better value and more competitively priced. This will impact on the modal shift and take people away from flying or using their car and get them on to trains and buses. As she is well aware, there have been a number of competitions recently where people have taken a train and a plane at the same time and arrived at their destination at the same time.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

I am sorry; I do not think that the question has been answered. When are the Government going to start making public transport cheaper and, for example, domestic flights more expensive? The Minister cannot just say it is going to happen some time in the future; we have a climate emergency to worry about.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The Government are subsidising train fares by a vast amount at the moment. Obviously we want them to be as low as possible, but the amount of subsidy needs to be fair to the taxpayer. The Government have asked for bus service improvement plans from all local transport authorities in the country, and we will look at their fare proposals and make sure that we can support those who offer the best value for money.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

With the problems over the east coast main line timetables, does the Minister believe that the advent of Great British Railways will end the design of timetables that are unworkable, cause chaos and delay, and confuse the consumer? I should declare an interest as the chair of the Built Environment Committee. On Friday, we are publishing a letter proposing a way forward on rail fares, another aspect of the Williams-Shapps plan for rail.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for raising this. She is absolutely right: Great British Railways is one of the ways in which we can ease the transition from one timetable to the next, and minimise the risks to delivering the services that passengers want and—as we know from demand figures—need. When Great British Railways is established and we bring together the ownership of the infrastructure, consideration about fares, timetables, and planning of the network under one roof, it will bring much greater benefits for the passenger and much greater accountability.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I am a regular passenger on the new Azuma train on the excellent east coast line. When the private franchise is removed from time to time, the Government become the owner of last resort, yet the service appears to remain excellent and actually, I understand, makes a profit. Given that, does the Minister agree that it matters not who owns and controls the service, for it is the skilled, excellent, customer-friendly staff on the trains and in the call centres who make the difference and govern the high quality of the service?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I agree that the staff are absolutely crucial. They provide an outstanding service on LNER, which is why it is doing pretty well at the moment. However, I do not agree that rail services should be nationalised as a whole. The proposals put forward in the Williams-Shapps plan for rail keep the best elements of the private sector, with new contracts for passenger operators and strong incentives to run very high-quality services.

[Baroness Humphreys (LD)]

My Lords, Monday’s announcement by Avanti West Coast that direct train services between north Wales and London will not be restored till next spring will cause concern to commuters. At the height of the pandemic, services were slashed to two direct services a day but, as passenger numbers increase and the winter months approach, connection times will become far more onerous for passengers. Avanti needs to restore direct services to north Wales so that passengers get the service they pay for. Will the Government tell it that?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Of course the Government are working very closely with the train operating companies. There is, as the noble Baroness probably knows, the rail revenue recovery group, which is working across Network Rail, the train operating companies and various consultancies to ensure that we are able to maximise revenue in a very depleted revenue environment and provide the services required. Of course we keep services under review, look at passenger demand and make changes accordingly.

[Lord Mann (Non-Afl)]

There is no polarisation where I live about the suggestion that most of the services from London to Retford and vice versa should be removed. How can businesses such as the internationally renowned artisan food centre on the Welbeck estate survive if no one can get there by train?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The noble Lord has highlighted exactly what has happened. There is no polarisation within any particular place, but the tension between different places and between the north/south and east/west routes is very vivid. However, I take his point that we need to make sure that the right services are in place to support businesses. That is what we are working through at the moment and we will of course consider what he has said.

HGV Drivers

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Tuesday 26th October 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to evaluate the success of the measures they have put in place to address the shortage of HGV drivers.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, we have taken decisive action to address the acute driver shortage, with 25 specific measures taken by the Government already to support the industry as it resolves this long-standing workforce issue. We are seeing results, with the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency dealing with around 4,200 applications daily, more than double the pre-Covid rate.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, we have a truly world-beating driver shortage in the UK. Given that the last time we discussed this the Minister said that the problem goes back to 2010, can she explain why the Government have had to resort to government by panic button, with some 25 last-minute measures to try to avert a crisis? Why was there no long-term plan to improve pay rates and conditions in order to attract the new entrants that the Government now say are so needed?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I think that I will probably say this many times: the haulage sector is a private sector and the Government do not customarily get involved in individual pay rates within those sorts of sectors. We have been working with the sector to address this issue. Indeed, many years ago now we commissioned a study into the availability of lorry parking and we are doing another one to see what we can do in that regard. So it is not fair to say that we have not been cognisant of this issue for quite some time. We have been working with the industry because it is mostly up to the industry to resolve it.

[Lord Whitty (Lab)]

My Lords, this crisis was eminently predictable in light of the age profile of UK haulage drivers and the prospect of Brexit. Do the Government now recognise that temporary visas and increased testing capacity will not resolve the basic problem? Do Ministers accept that in order to attract and retain the next generation of HGV drivers we need not only to provide more training, increase pay and stop the permanent escalation of hours but to improve working conditions, particularly adequate and hygienic facilities at lorry parks, which are provided by public authorities in much of the continent but not here, so that too many drivers have to sleep in their cabs?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I think that the noble Lord has just pointed out the complex and convoluted nature of the solutions to this problem, which is indeed long-standing. I say again that we are working closely with the industry on this. Of course it is not just the haulage industry that has skin in this game; it is also the people who provide services to the haulage industry. The noble Lord will be pleased to hear that I am working with National Highways to figure out what we can do to improve services at motorway service areas and to see whether we can develop some more.

[Baroness Foster of Oxton (Con)]

My Lords, the information recently disclosed is that there was a backlog of some 56,000 HGV licences that were being delayed in the process, as well as delays in driver training, by the DVSA. This caused an outrage and, in addition, the threat of industrial action. Will the Minister please tell us what steps the Government have taken to address these issues?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I reassure my noble friend that I have had several conversations with the DVLA on this matter. I assure her that currently there is no backlog at all for provisional vocational licences; these are being processed within the normal turnaround time. As of Monday, there were 27,000 applications for vocational driving licences awaiting processing. However, the holders of the vast majority of those, which are renewals, will of course still be able to drive under Section 88 provisions.

On the strike at the DVLA, it was and remains extremely unwelcome and unjustified. The PCS has repeatedly claimed that increasing the backlog is a success. I do not agree; that is not a success. It is impacting our supply chains and those people who need to use their cars to travel. However, I also point out that the vast majority of DVLA staff are not striking, and I welcome the work that they do.

[The Earl of Clancarty (CB)]

My Lords, further to the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, does the Minister believe that we can learn from others, including our European neighbours, in the provision of dedicated roadside facilities, such as the Relais Routiers network of over 1,200 restaurants with safe parking and shower facilities? These are popular with British HGV drivers when they drive through France. The UK has no such dedicated facilities for lorry drivers, and we are in urgent need of them.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am not sure we will necessarily follow the French example, but I accept that we need to improve the quality and quantity of facilities for our drivers and the availability of lorry parking for rest breaks. Obviously, I am working very closely with the owners and operators of the 114 motorway service areas we have. Of course, there are countless other providers of facilities that are away from the strategic road network. I agree that we need to improve them and perhaps there might be something more about that in the spending review.

[Lord Rosser (Lab)]

No one should object to heavy goods vehicle drivers being paid a lot more for the valuable work they do, but now we read that some local authorities are facing shortages of drivers of refuse collection vehicles and gritters because they are leaving for newly substantially higher-paid driving jobs for supermarket chains, among others. Since this is a direct spin-off from the Government’s own hard Brexit, will the Government commit to reimbursing cash-strapped local authorities for the cost of paying drivers of refuse collection vehicles and gritters more to retain their services and ensure the maintenance of these vital public services this winter?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

As the noble Lord knows, there is a shortage of lorry drivers across Europe so we would not necessarily have been able to rely on cheap EU labour in the current situation. I accept there will be a transition from where we were previously to where we are now. Some people will move jobs and I accept that the key to that is to increase training for HGV drivers. We are providing the tests and working with the training sector to provide training so that people can come through and drive our garbage disposal trucks and gritters.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)]

Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton? Not present? I call the noble Lord, Lord Mann.

[Lord Mann (Non-Afl)]

If I were a foreign lorry driver, I would go home for Christmas knowing that on 1 January I would get another big cash bonus to retake up a lorry driving job. Considering that, can the Government guarantee that we will all have our turkeys available on Christmas Day this year?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

As I think I have tried to point out, the Government are extremely active in this area: 25 measures and counting in terms of making sure that we not only address the short-term issues but consider the medium and long-term solutions to this current shortage.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My noble friend may not be aware that I am the honorary president of the UK Warehousing Association. It is deeply concerned about the shortage of forklift truck drivers, which is impacting once again on the supply chain. What can my noble friend do to work with the industry to try to resolve the situation in the run-up to Christmas so that we can empty the warehouses and get the supply chain moving as best we can?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am very happy to work with the UK Warehousing Association on any measures we can take to increase the number of forklift truck drivers coming through. In return, I would really like the UK Warehousing Association to encourage its members to provide decent facilities and places to have a rest for HGV drivers when they are dropping off.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, can the Minister indicate what assessment has been undertaken of the potential impact on the availability of HGV drivers after the Government impose checks on goods coming in from the EU as a result of the Government’s hard Brexit?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

We do not believe there will be an impact from any checks coming from the EU.

Insulate Britain

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Tuesday 26th October 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Moylan]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the costs to (1) public services, and (2) the wider economy, of the recent campaign by Insulate Britain of obstructing motorways and major roads.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, Insulate Britain’s irresponsible actions have disrupted thousands of people’s lives. National Highways estimates that the financial impact on drivers from time lost during just three days of disruption totals £559,946. This does not include the costs of missed appointments or of managing the incidents, disruption to manufacturing or retail, or the impact of disruption on other days. These costs would have been even higher without prompt action by the police to remove protesters and free up traffic.

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

My Lords, according to the Observer at the weekend, Insulate Britain activists are baffled as to why they are not in jail already. They thought that their campaign would be over in two days, rather than being allowed to go on for five weeks. I think that the rest of the country rather shares their bafflement. As they resume their very expensive campaign of disrupting ordinary people’s lives, can my noble friend say that the Government both have and will deploy the necessary legal powers to bring them before a court of law?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

We are investigating all possible legal avenues to bring these people to justice. National Highways and Transport for London have both rapidly put in place injunctions to deter these sort of dangerous actions. Only yesterday, the High Court granted National Highways an interim injunction banning activities which obstruct traffic and access on any part of the strategic road network—that is, all motorways and major A roads. Last Friday, National Highways applied for committal for contempt of court in respect of nine individuals suspected of breaching injunctions. If found to be in breach, these individuals could face an unlimited fine and/or imprisonment.

[Viscount Ridley (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that what appears to have been a cunning plan by the secret society of evil net-zero sceptics to get Insulate Britain to undermine the appeal of the Green movement was brilliantly executed? Was it not a particular triumph to choose upper middle-class twits to confront ordinary people trying to get to work or school? Was it not a stroke of genius to make sure that some of them had not insulated their own homes? Does she agree that it is surprising that the environmental movement has not yet seen through this stunt?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I cannot agree more with my noble friend.

[Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)]

My Lords, there is no doubt that the activities of the Insulate Britain campaign have caused problems and disruption for many people. I guess that was the point. Does the Minister agree that these problems will come to be seen as trivial when compared to the disruption we shall all face to our lives if we fail to address climate change?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

This Government have one of the strongest records in the world in tackling climate change, and I fear that using the word “trivial” in relation to this disruption is a poor choice of word. Insulate Britain has said that days of disruption are necessary to force the Government to act. This is just a small, rag-tag group of people who will not force the Government to do anything.

[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I am sure that most of your Lordships’ House have been on demonstrations or protests during their lives, even if they do not want to admit it now. Those demonstrations were different: the police were involved beforehand and looked to make sure that the law was not broken. What we are seeing here are people who have gone out deliberately to obstruct ordinary daily life. Some of the demonstrators have said that they think they are not being arrested and charged properly and ending up in prison because of the COP 26 conference. There is a kind of feeling that they do not want people to be in jail for anything vaguely to do with climate change. Can the Minister confirm or deny this?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

It certainly has nothing at all to do with COP 26. Obviously, certain matters are operational matters for the police, but the noble Baroness is right: we all know of good protests. Getting a million people out on the streets on a Saturday afternoon where the police have been told in advance, where there is a good level of public support and where you do not destroy any statues is a good protest. Insulate Britain members are not good protesters.

[Lord Rosser (Lab)]

Climate change is the major challenge of our time, and winning public support for the cause is critical. Blocking roads and antagonising people is not going to achieve that objective.

This week, the London Mayor, Sadiq Khan, has significantly extended London’s ultra-low emission zone. The Evening Standard yesterday said that it backed Sadiq Khan in

“taking steps to clean up our city’s toxic air and cut our carbon emissions in the process.”

Do the Government also back Sadiq Khan on this, regarding it too as an effective example of how the ballot box can prove to be an effective way for people to respond to the climate crisis?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

As the noble Lord will know, we probably have a much closer relationship with the Mayor of London than we would ordinarily have at the moment. Although transport is devolved in London, owing to a substantial hole in TfL’s finances we have to provide it with quite significant funding every now and again. Indeed, the last deal we agreed with the mayor included that there would be no change to the extension of ULEZ.

[Lord Balfe (Con)]

My Lords, the laws already exist to deal with this matter, but the police are just not using their operational freedom to put them into effect. Could the police be advised that there would be a lot of public support if they were to use their influence and arrest people, and a few of them could spend a few days in prison? It might put them off further action.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

As I noted, policing matters are an operational matter for the police, but I am sure that the Metropolitan Police will have heard my noble friend’s wise words.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)]

I call the noble Lord, Lord Austin of Dudley. No, he is not present. In that case, I call the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, as of March last year the cost of road congestion in the UK was £7 billion, estimated at £784 per driver. Clearly, the Government are irresponsible to let that congestion go ahead and really ought to have a plan to reduce it that does not involve building more roads, which actually will attract more traffic. Would the Minister like to say something about that? Plus—Insulate Britain is right. Its tactics might be colossally difficult for us to cope with, but it is right that the Government should be insulating the leakiest council housing homes in Britain, rather than allowing those people to spend cold winters, be ill and emit endless CO₂ emissions.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Well, I am just relieved that the noble Baroness did not stand up and agree with her fellow eco-warriors. As I have previously set out, this Government have a very strong record on tackling climate change. I point the noble Baroness to the transport decarbonisation plan, published by the Department for Transport, which clearly sets out exactly how we intend to decarbonise our transport system.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)]

My Lords, that concludes Oral Questions for today.

Airports Slot Allocation (Alleviation of Usage Requirements) (No. 2) Regulations 2021

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Tuesday 26th October 2021 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

That the draft Regulations and Orders laid before the House on 19 July and 6 September be approved.

Relevant documents: 12th and 14th Reports from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee. Considered in Grand Committee on 19 October.

Motions agreed.

Airports Slot Allocation (Alleviation of Usage Requirements) (No. 2) Regulations 2021

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Tuesday 19th October 2021 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Airports Slot Allocation (Alleviation of Usage Requirements) (No. 2) Regulations 2021.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, these draft regulations will be made under the powers conferred by the Air Traffic Management and Unmanned Aircraft Act 2021, known fondly by everybody as ATMUA. ATMUA created a more flexible set of powers for Ministers to implement slot alleviation measures related to the impacts of Covid-19, subject to a vote in both Houses. It allows us to tailor our response in ways that were not possible beforehand.

Ordinarily, airlines must operate slots 80% of the time to retain the right to the same slots the following year; this is known as the 80:20 rule or the “use it or lose it” rule. However, the powers provided by ATMUA enable the Secretary of State to provide alleviation from this rule if he is satisfied that there is a reduction in demand due to the Covid-19 pandemic and that the reduction is likely to persist.

Under ordinary circumstances, the 80:20 rule helps to encourage efficient use of scarce airport capacity while allowing airlines a degree of flexibility in their operations. In response to the Covid-19 pandemic, the EU Commission waived the 80:20 rule for the summer 2020 and winter 2020 seasons. Following the UK’s departure from the EU, the UK Government decided to extend this waiver to cover the summer 2021 season, going through until the end of October 2021, through the Airports Slot Allocation (Alleviation of Usage Requirements) Regulations 2021.

Through the provision to airlines of legal certainty that they would be able to retain their slots even if not operated, the commercial impacts of the Covid-19 outbreak on the industry were mitigated. This is because airlines might otherwise have opted to incur costs and operate flights at low load factors merely to retain slots. That would have been bad for emissions and, of course, bad for their finances.

Due to continued uncertainty and low passenger demand forecasts, we set out a package of measures on 19 July to alleviate slot usage requirements for the winter 2021 season, which runs from 31 October 2021 through to 26 March 2022. This package was developed following consultation with the aviation industry and careful consideration of the responses that we received. Industry expressed a range of views, ranging from calls for a full waiver to support for no alleviation at all.

The draft instrument being considered today applies to England, Scotland and Wales. Aerodromes are a devolved matter in relation to Northern Ireland and, as there are no slot co-ordinated airports in Northern Ireland, the Northern Ireland Executive agreed that it was not appropriate for the powers of the Act to extend to, or apply in relation to, Northern Ireland.

In the draft instrument, the Government have set out a package of alleviation measures designed to work together. These include changing the minimum usage ratio to 50:50, meaning that airlines are required to use their slots at least 50% of the time to retain the right to operate these same slots the following year. The reintroduction of a utilisation rate should encourage efficient slot use while also supporting sector recovery.

Secondly, the draft regulations also allow airlines that hand back a full series of slots to the slot co-ordinator—

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, we were talking about the content of the SI and discussed the first element, which changes the minimum usage ratio to 50%.

The second element is that the regulations allow airlines which hand back a full series of slots to the slot co-ordinator before the start of the season to retain the right to operate that series of slots the following year. This will provide an opportunity for other airlines, including new entrants, to apply for and operate these slots on a temporary or ad hoc basis. This measure will apply to traded and leased slots but not to newly allocated ones; this is to prevent carriers acquiring slots with no intention to operate them. Airlines which have announced that they have permanently ceased or will permanently cease operations at an airport before the start of the winter 2022 season will not benefit from this measure in winter 2022.

Finally, the draft regulations expand the reasons which airlines may use to justify not using slots to include Covid-19-related restrictions. This provides a backstop against the risk of unforeseen Covid-19-related measures or restrictions being imposed during the season. This will apply where unforeseen Covid-19-related measures—including flight bans and quarantine or self-isolation requirements—are applied at either end of a route and have a severe impact on demand for the route or its viability. It will apply where restrictions could not reasonably have been foreseen in time to hand back the full slot series. There will be a three-week recovery period during which these provisions, sometimes known as force majeure, may still apply following the end of the Covid restrictions. These measures will cover the winter 2021 scheduling period, as I have noted. We are currently considering alleviation for summer 2022 and plan to consult with industry to inform our policy decision later this year.

This instrument provides necessary relief for the aviation sector for the winter 2021 scheduling period. Through this package of measures, we have aimed to strike a balance between supporting the financial health of the sector and encouraging recovery. I commend this instrument to the Committee.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

I thank the Minister for her very clear explanation. I certainly appreciate the need for these adjustments to take the heat off the airlines during what is still a difficult time for aviation.

I note that one of the reasons why the non-use of slots is justified is a result of government-imposed measures which make routes unviable. It is a pity that the airlines are getting the benefit of this alleviation on slot allocation when there appears to be no clear obligation on those same airlines to return money to consumers on the basis of the same government restrictions on flying. Not all airlines by any means have behaved badly, but the CMA has recently cited a lack of clarity in consumer legislation for its abandonment of attempts to ensure that all airlines did the decent thing and offered proper refunds. Can the Minister say whether the Government have any intention to clarify consumer law?

I note also that there has been no impact assessment because this legislation is designed to be for a period of less than 12 months. But in fact, although it sets out rules for 2021-22, it also bestows rights to the control of future slots into 2023. That is what the winter period of 2022 becomes—it moves over into 2023. This situation has already existed for 18 months, and, as the Explanatory Memorandum itself points out, slots have significant competitive operational and financial value. Taken together, this will have a distorting impact on the industry—it can have nothing else. The Explanatory Memorandum warns of the impact on smaller airports and the likelihood that the relief to a 50% level for the use of slots will have an impact on small airlines wanting to accumulate new slot rights at congested airports. Therefore, although this measure is undoubtedly environmentally desirable and commercially necessary at this time, it will favour the big and established airlines. I would be interested to hear the Minister’s comments on that.

Paragraph 7.6 of the EM recognises the dubious practices of some airlines, which seek basically to game the system by seeking to accumulate new slots for this winter which they have no intention of using, simply to gain historic rights for use in the future. So my question to the Minister is this. In the past, Gatwick has had some concerns about what it saw as unfair hoarding of slots. Is the Minister aware of this issue—I am sure she is—and has it been resolved to the satisfaction of Gatwick Airport?

Paragraph 3.1 of the EM refers to reasons for delay in laying the draft SI and the need to use the latest data on the level of air traffic. Can the Minister please give us an update on what the latest level of air traffic is at the moment? What percentage are we up to compared with 2019, for example?

Finally, is the Minister aware of what action our neighbouring countries are taking on this issue? Are they taking similar action on slots? Everyone started from a similar position on the rules on slots across the EU and in neighbouring countries. In the early period of the pandemic, I recall that they all moved forward in a fairly similar way. Are we still in tune with the actions of our neighbours?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, and the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, for their contributions to the short debate today and for their welcome—I think—for these regulations. I think they do the right thing for the industry. As ever, both have asked me questions that I am unable to answer today, so I shall be writing, but, in the meantime, I hope to run through a few of the elements that have been raised.

First, it is worth reflecting on where the aviation sector is at the moment. Obviously, it remains not where we want it to be, but it is in a much better place than it was. As of the end of September 2021, UK flight traffic continues slowly to recover but remains 49% below corresponding 2019 levels. Even with the ongoing relaxation of restrictions and the anticipated reopening of travel to the US, Covid-19 is likely to remain a considerable source of uncertainty for some time. I think that also addresses the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, who asked where we see things going in the future. It is not really possible for us to say what we think capacity is going to be like over the winter months, and certainly we will need to maintain as much flexibility as possible. We have to make sure that we discourage slot hoarding and inefficient slot use. We need to make sure that we support the airlines’ financial health as much as we can, and we have to protect future connectivity, both domestically and internationally.

Part of what the Government are working hard on at the moment is what the future for aviation looks like, because we recognise that it has been an incredibly challenging time for what feels like a long period now and the sector is vital to our future as a global trading nation. My department is working on a strategic framework for the aviation sector which will focus on building back better and ensuring a successful UK aviation sector in the future. The framework will explore a number of issues, including workforce and skills, regional connectivity, noise, innovation and regulation, and the consumer issues so rightly highlighted by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson. The framework will of course also consider climate change and decarbonisation, as well as the role that aviation plays in the UK’s global reach. We hope to have that published by the end of the year. I look forward to discussing it with noble Lords then.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked what proportion of full slot series have been handed back. I do not have that data, and I am not entirely sure that we would have it, for commercial reasons, but if I am able to find out a bit more information I shall certainly write to the noble Lord and set it out. Whether they use slots has to be a commercial decision for the airlines; they will take into account the services and routes they operate. The provision allows them such flexibility so that they are able, before the start of the season, to do something about what they think is going to happen if they potentially have too many slots that it is clear they will not need. We are aware that a number of airlines have returned their slots and then reapplied for a proportion of them as ad hocs. This is a legitimate use of the provisions, which are designed to promote flexibility. These slots may of course have been allocated to another carrier. In those circumstances, the decision is not exactly risk free, but it was obviously the right one for the airlines that chose to do that.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, also asked for greater detail on the breakdown of the 54 respondents and who felt what about which of the interventions we are proposing. I do not have that. I have said previously that there was a range of views. We felt that the 50% minimum usage threshold was supported by the largest number of respondents, and it is consistent with proposals being put forward by IATA—again, that is helpful.

The noble Baroness asked what the EU is doing. It is doing something fairly similar at the moment. I think we have slightly more flexibility because we have the powers under ATMUA, but, given that aviation is so interconnected, we look at what the EU is doing as well as at what is happening in the US, where domestic flights have continued to a significant degree but international flights have not. We believe we have the right balance.

The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, asked about an impact assessment and highlighted some of the impacts that have been set out very well in the Explanatory Memorandum. There are pros and cons. It is a careful balance that we are trying to achieve, but a formal impact assessment is not needed—obviously, my officials checked this out carefully—because the regulations apply for a six-month period; that is, it is less than 12 months. However, we have done what we can to set out clearly the benefits and potential disbenefits of the interventions in the Explanatory Memorandum. Given that our interventions are matched by so many other countries, I believe it is probably the right way to go.

I turn to some of the longer-term issues relating to slots. It is the case that we are considering the whole slot allocation system as part of future aviation policy. We are not entirely convinced that the current system is working as efficiently as it could. It is worth looking at it because, as we recover from the impacts of Covid-19, we want to make sure that we have the right level of competition to ensure that the customer gets the best levels of connectivity and indeed price. This work will involve consultation with our international partners and all our UK stakeholders. It is not a small endeavour but it is something that we will be looking at in future.

Without the instrument, we would return to the default 80:20 slot usage rule. I do not believe that noble Lords want to go there and no one has indicated that that is the case. I therefore think that the instrument provides an appropriate way forward and I beg to move.

Motion agreed.