Railways: Trans-Pennine Express

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Taylor of Stevenage]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the rate of cancellations of Trans-Pennine Express trains, and what criteria they are using to consider the renewal of the contract for Trans-Pennine Express.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, for many months we have made it clear to TPE’s management that its services have been unacceptable. Passengers have faced significant disruption and the northern economy has not had the reliable railway it needs. To allow for the reset that passengers need and expect, the Secretary of State has confirmed that TPE will be brought under the DfT’s operator of last resort when the current contract expires on 28 May.

[Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her Answer, which was so prompt that it was given on 17 May, before I had a chance to ask the Question. The appalling service that customers received from TPE highlights again the lack of co-ordination across the privatised rail service—problems that were supposed to be resolved through the implementation of Great British Railways. Now that the Prime Minister has announced that Great British Railways has been scrapped, can the Minister tell us whether industry reports that £52 million has already been spent on it are correct? Is that money now wasted if GBR has been scrapped?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I must have missed the Prime Minister scrapping GBR, because the Secretary of State has set out his ambition for a customer-focused, commercially led industry. The creation of GBR is, of course, the guiding mind for the sector, but it is true that we can get many of the benefits now. The programme is simplifying and rolling out single-leg pricing across the LNER network, and trialling demand-based pricing to ensure that passenger demand is more evenly spread between services. Of course, the GBR transition team is working on the long-term strategy for rail, which will simplify industry practices and explore new opportunities for the private sector.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, TransPennine Express is the fourth train operator to be taken over by the Government in the face of prolonged failure. Although the Minister has outlined some work that can be done in the face of the current situation, Great British Railways in all its aspects cannot be created without full legislation. I understand that the Bill to create GBR is largely drafted, and is short and straight- forward. Why do the Government not just get on with it? If they do not, what do they plan to do instead to deal with the current decline of our railways?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I have already outlined to the noble Baroness some of the things that can be achieved now. The creation of Great British Railways in full does require legislation, which we will progress when parliamentary time allows.

[Lord Clark of Windermere (Lab)]

My Lords, why do the Government not face up to the reality that TransPennine Express is a small player compared with the problem of cancellations on the west coast main line, especially by Avanti? I understand that there were three yesterday morning alone. When can we have a proper mainline service on the west coast?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am not aware of the reasons for those cancellations, but I remind all noble Lords that sometimes cancellations have to happen that are not the fault of the train operating companies. We have worked very closely with Avanti, and we know that the proportion of Avanti-caused cancellations fell from an average of 13.2% in early January to just 1.4% at the end of March. Occasionally, it is not Avanti’s fault, and it is right that it does not take the blame in those circumstances.

[Lord Birt (CB)]

My Lords, disruption on our national rail system is now commonplace. Only yesterday, I took a train to reach Parliament that was exactly 60 minutes late. Recently, my wife and I spent a delightful three weeks holidaying in Japan. We criss-crossed every part of Japan on the Shinkansen, the regional network and the local network, and on every single occasion bar none the train arrived precisely, to the minute, as advertised, and deposited us at our destination exactly to the minute. When will we be able to achieve Japanese levels of reliability on our national rail network?

[A noble Lord]

Never!

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, I hope to take a trip to Japan soon to go and see those fantastic railways. Of course, they are incredible, but they were not built quite at the time that our railways were built. The Government are very focused: reliability is the Secretary of State’s number one priority, aside from safety. That is why we are investing £44.1 billion in our railways in the next control period. Network Rail published its strategic business plans a few days ago, and they are now with the independent regulator, the Office of Rail and Road, for further scrutiny.

[Lord McLoughlin (Con)]

My Lords, I draw attention to my interest in the register as chairman of Transport for the North. While I welcome what the Secretary of State has brought forward, which takes effect next Monday—the operator of TPE being the operator of last resort from next week—does my noble friend agree that it will not necessarily be a silver bullet? Until industrial relations are brought back to reality and a good working relationship with train drivers is accepted, we will still have disrupted services—and the huge amount of money that is presently being spent on the trans-Pennine upgrade.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I absolutely agree with my noble friend. The railways are in a very poor financial place at the moment, with revenues between £50 million and £130 million less than they were before. That is why we must see reform of the railways if they are to have a viable future. That reform can happen only if we get the co-operation of the unions, which I am sure want to ensure a long-term future for their workers. I am grateful for all the work that my noble friend does in the north. The Secretary of State has asked officials to review services across the north to look for performance improvements and delivery certainty, and is looking to work with northern mayors and other stakeholders to make those improvements.

[Lord Watts (Lab)]

My Lords, before the strikes took place, the railway was still a shambles. Can the Minister tell us why every European nation seems to be able to run a train service, while Britain cannot? Is it because the dogma that runs this Government means that they will not look at privatisation and bringing the railway system back into public ownership, like many other countries?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am not wholly sure where the noble Lord gets that evidence from. Certainly, if he goes back to look at the period before industrial action really took hold, he will see that many of the train operating companies were working exactly to contract and better, and therefore getting performance fees. I want to point out as well—I think it is important—that while I absolutely note that some noble Lords will have had trouble travelling recently, those noble Lords who have not, such as me, will not say that they actually had a very good service. But I have had a fantastic service on LNER, on South Western Railway and on Avanti.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

Following what my noble friend has just said, could I just put in a good word for LNER, and encourage noble Lords in all parts of the House to come and explore the glories of Lincoln? They will almost certainly get there on time, and get back on time, unless there is a strike.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My noble friend has hit the nail on the head. It is likely that any noble Lord will get there and get back on time, unless there is a strike.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, could the Minister persuade the Prime Minister to use the railways himself a little bit more often? We know that he flies around the country rather a lot. I think if he were to do so, particularly in visiting his constituency, then services to Northallerton and Thirsk would improve very considerably.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am sure that the Prime Minister is well aware of what is going on on our railways, because one of the key priorities of the Department for Transport is to make sure that they run reliably, and that in the future we have a reformed railway which services all passengers, not just the Prime Minister.

[Lord Inglewood (Non-Afl)]

Does the Minister agree that probably the single thing that could best bring forward levelling up to the north of England would be to get a decent railway system in place, operating so that people can travel on it with confidence?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Obviously, there are many strands to what is a broad levelling-up ambition, but I agree that we must focus on investing in our railways in the north. That is why HS2 is proceeding and why we are spending £44.1 billion on the traditional infrastructure. It is very important that we maintain what we have to make sure that reliability, to the north and indeed all parts of the UK, is good.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, what is the purpose of Transport Ministers? All they seem to do is read out the excuses from the railway companies, then shovel lots of money into them, and then cancel their contracts because they are not performing. Is it not about time that Transport Ministers did what they ought to do and take control of the railways —take it into public ownership?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Nationalisation is a soundbite; it is not a solution. One would be left with the same infrastructure, the same workforce, and the same challenges that the railways currently face. It is absolutely important that Transport Ministers—all Transport Ministers, including the Rail Minister, which is not me—have good relationships with the train operating companies, and allow that engagement to happen with the unions so that we can take our railways forward.

Public Service Vehicles (Accessible Information) Regulations 2023

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Monday 22nd May 2023 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 30 March be approved. Considered in Grand Committee on 16 May.

Motion agreed.

South West Rail Resilience Programme

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Monday 22nd May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Whitty (Lab)]

My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Berkeley, and with his permission, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in his name on the Order Paper.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, I can confirm that Network Rail has delivered two phases of the south-west resilience programme, providing protection to the railway at Dawlish from coastal flooding. The third and fourth phases addressing cliff protection measures are in delivery, with a combined budget of £85 million. Network Rail is being funding to deliver a detailed proposal for the fifth and final phase, which addresses cliff protection for a mile-long stretch of the railway.

[Lord Swire (Con)]

My Lords, we listen with some amazement—

[Lord Whitty (Lab)]

My Lords, I am glad to see that Members are so keen to speak. I thank the Minister for her reply, but it does not really answer the Question—or it does so only partly—and it does not reflect the importance of this line to the already existing problems of transport links to west Devon and Cornwall. Can she reassure us that the vital fourth and fifth phases—she mentioned the fourth, but not the fifth—will indeed be fully funded by Network Rail and the department? Can she give us an estimated date of completion to restore full resilience to this vital link to the far south-west?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

As I mentioned in my opening Answer, Network Rail is working on the fifth phase of the works in some detail; we need to establish detailed proposals for this mile-long stretch of the railway. Local consultations have happened, and there was some reluctance around some of the proposals put forward. Therefore, Network Rail is looking at the scope and costs of the fifth phase.

[Lord Swire (Con)]

My Lords, I apologise for being a bit too quick, which is more than you can say for any of the trains travelling to the south-west. In the south-west, we look and listen in envy to talk of chopping off bits of time on the cross-Pennine railway and others. That is not a luxury we have; we have only one railway beyond Exeter linking the whole south-west peninsula. If Dawlish goes down, we have no connectivity at all. While I very much welcome all the money and the moves the Government have made with the resilience surrounding Dawlish itself, until such time as we have a second railway bypassing or connecting Plymouth—either west of Dartmoor or in line with some of the other options—we can never be sure that we can keep the south-west connected 365 days a year.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I welcome my noble friend’s interest in this Question; I know that he raised this issue in the other place many times. I assure him that delays on the line as it currently stands are significantly down, from 53.6 minutes per 1,000 services in 2018-19 to just 36.1 minutes per 1,000 services in 2022-23, so it is important to note that the resilience of the line is improving. The department has looked at alternatives—additional routes through to the south-west that might provide additional resilience. However, we are focused on improving the resilience of the line as it currently stands. In proposals for restoring elements of railway that previously existed, the case was not set out sufficiently.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, this example is one of many similar schemes. A few weeks ago I asked a Question about news reports that Network Rail’s future funding was so limited that we could expect that basic infrastructure may not be repaired. The Minister dismissed my inquiry, saying that you should

“never believe everything that you read in the newspaper”.—[Official Report, 26/4/23; col. 1214.]

Now we have sight of Network Rail’s own business case for the next five years. It warns that funding constraints mean that the condition of the rail infrastructure will deteriorate and there will be a decrease in reliability. Does the Minister think that I should not believe everything I read in an official Network Rail document?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I say, absolutely, that one should not believe everything one reads in the newspaper. It is the case that Network Rail has to work within its funding envelope for CP7, which goes from 2024 to 2029. We are investing a record £44.1 billion in our rail infrastructure—a 4% increase on CP6—so the Government are providing significant funding. As with many elements of the railways, it is important that Network Rail and others look at what funding they have and obtain efficiencies to ensure that the reliability of the railway is maintained.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, I looked at a recent exchange between my noble friend Lord Berkeley and the Minister on this subject. Essentially, he asked whether funding for phase 5 will be withheld and she gave the heroic non-answer that she has just repeated. Can we be absolutely clear where we are on funding? Will funding be available for phase 5? If not, does the Minister accept that building phases 1 and 4 and not phase 5 is a complete waste of money?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I do not accept the latter point. We have invested £165 million to date, and of course some of that was to ensure the resilience of the seawall itself. Other elements of that funding went into cliff protection measures. This final section of cliff protection measures is highly complicated and there has been some local reluctance around the plans that Network Rail originally put forward. That is why it has had to go back to the drawing board. At this stage we do not know the scope of the works or the costs, and therefore it is impossible to speak further about the funding.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister refers to keeping within the funding envelope. Is there any connection between the Government’s determination to cut taxes before the next election and the refusal to provide additional long-term funding for long-term investment? As a Government concerned with the national interest, should they not be more concerned with long-term investment than the short-term political advantage that a tax cut might provide before the next election?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The Government are always cognisant that we must provide value for money to the taxpayer. As I outlined in a previous answer, the amount of funding going into our railways is going up. We are very cognisant of the impact of that increased funding and the sorts of deliverables that we want to see out of it. I assure the noble Lord that the rail network enhancements pipeline, or RNEP, will include some of those enhancements and will be published soon.

[Baroness Watkins of Tavistock (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister accept that if we do not proceed with the fifth part of this protection, we should look again at the west Devon line going via Tavistock, because we could be left with absolutely nothing again?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I do not accept that those two issues are necessarily linked. It is very important that we have resilience on the existing line, which has been in place for many years. That is why we are very focused on improving its resilience and have invested heavily in it. As I said previously, we looked at some proposals. For example, in round 3 of the Restoring Your Railway project, Devon County Council produced a strategic outline business case for reopening the line from Bere Alston to Tavistock. There was also a proposal to open the line from Tavistock to Okehampton. Neither of those was really viable enough to take forward.

[Lord Lexden (Con)]

My Lords, what are the effects of the difficulties in the rail links on tourism to the particularly beautiful part of our country to which this Question referred?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

As I noted earlier, the delays on this line have actually reduced; it is quite a reliable line, and the train operating company is very effective. I encourage all tourists to get on the railways and visit the south-west.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, talking about delays, of the many reasons my Avanti West Coast train has been delayed—it was 40 minutes this morning—points failures and signal failures are high on the list. Does this not indicate that the network is falling apart?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I do not accept that the network is falling apart. In whichever country one is in the world, there are occasional technical issues that cause trains to be delayed. The Government are investing £44.1 billion in the next control period. That will ensure that our railways are fit for the future.

HGVs: Charging and Refuelling

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Monday 22nd May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to encourage and develop a network of public charging and refuelling sites for zero-emission HGVs, and what policies are they adopting to encourage and facilitate the development of charging and refuelling infrastructure at commercial HGV depots.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government recognise that charging and refuelling sites required to support zero-emission HGV uptake will need to increase before 2040. Last year’s future of freight plan committed to convening industry stakeholders to develop a plan for rollout, which is happening through our Freight Energy Forum. Extensive stakeholder engagement will begin later this year.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, it is accepted that a very large number of electric vehicle charging points, particularly ultra-fast ones, will be required in the near future, and that those will mainly be needed in depots. However, the National Grid is giving applicants for extra grid capacity completion dates and access dates that are well into the 2030s. What are the Government doing to ensure there is sufficiently large grid capacity throughout the UK to enable this logistics revolution to proceed apace?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The Government are taking a two-phased approach to this, and those phases are happening concurrently. The first is that we need to discuss with industry stakeholders exactly how they feel the strategy for the rollout of zero-emission vehicles will go, particularly at the heavy end. That is why we will publish the zero-emission HGV infrastructure strategy later this year, once we have been able to discuss it with those stakeholders. The Government are confident that the grid can cope with the increased demand, and the next step is to ensure that depots can connect to it. We are working with the DNOs to find the most cost-effective solution to that.

[Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)]

My Lords, can we pause and reflect for a moment on the implications of this situation? As has already been suggested, would not a fleet of HGVs all topping up with electricity add a colossal load to our electricity supply and transmission system, even to the point, some say, that the existing cables could melt, causing local outages? Where is this enormous extra volume of electricity going to come from and where is the investment to generate it; and where is the investment for the National Grid transformation required to get any of this to work?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My noble friend raises a very important point. That is why, as part of the decarbonisation of HGVs, the Government are investing £200 million in the zero-emission road freight demonstrator programme, which will look at all the different technologies available. For some vehicles, battery electric will be the best option, but for others we expect hydrogen fuel cells to be far more relevant. Therefore, we need the zero-emission HGV infrastructure strategy, which will examine what a network of green hydrogen sites would look like, as well as the impact on the grid and where on it the additional electricity will be needed.

[Lord Lansley (Con)]

My Lords, a number of HGV fleet operators I have talked to in Cambridgeshire just want decisions to be made and a strategy to be progressed. Many of them think that hydrogen fuel cells will be the best technology for large HGVs, but there is no infrastructure for that, and they are looking for support for infrastructure well before the date on which they have to stop buying new diesel trucks.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I accept it is most likely that a hydrogen refuelling infrastructure will be needed. That is exactly why the Government are taking time, over the next six months or so, working with the stakeholders who sit on the Freight Energy Forum to establish exactly what that might look like. We need to set the strategic direction to ensure that the infrastructure is in place for 2040, but we also need to look at the evidence that will come from the zero-emission road freight demonstrator programme so that it can feed into that strategy.

[Lord Hannan of Kingsclere (Con)]

My Lords, I am encouraged by my noble friend the Minister’s reply to my noble friend Lord Lansley. It takes up to 10 hours for an HGV to plug in and recharge from one of these stations. More to the point, China controls 75% of battery production, but hydrogen is a race we are well placed to win. What plans does my noble friend have to work with producers of HGVs—not only fuel rod producers but producers of internal combustion engines that run on hydrogen—to achieve a workable rollout which will cover our transport networks?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My noble friend is right that working with stakeholders is key. The Government cannot solve the industry’s issues in this regard by centralising the decision-making for them, and it will be up to the stakeholders to decide what sort of vehicles they believe will be taken forward. I believe it will be a combination of battery electric and hydrogen fuel cells, and that is why the infrastructure strategy we are working on is so important. My noble friend mentioned hydrogen internal combustion engines. We believe that they are not zero-emission engines as they produce trace carbon dioxide and NOx. They also have very low energy efficiency in real-world applications, at about 25%, compared to 90% for battery electric and about 60% for hydrogen fuel cells.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, will the Government ensure that there are sufficient dedicated recharging facilities available for commercial vehicles so that large and small commercial vans are deterred from using the often scarce recharging facilities for private cars available at motorway services?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The Government are working at pace on electric vehicle chargers, for both commercial and private use. We are focusing on Project Rapid and the rapid charging fund, which looks at long-distance journeys. The second area is local electric vehicle infrastructure, including on-road charging in local areas, which can be used by commercial vehicles as well.

[Baroness Hayman (CB)]

My Lords, I declare my interests as set out in the register. The problems with the grid and the urgent need for both investment in and strategic planning for the grid emerge as more and more of an issue. That is one of the reasons why this House supported an amendment to the Energy Bill, to give Ofgem an objective to contribute to the achievement of net zero. Would the Minister be kind enough to talk to her colleagues and make sure that the Government do not try to reverse that amendment in another place?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I will certainly ensure that my colleagues are aware of the noble Baroness’s interest. The price controls being used by Ofgem are very helpful in encouraging investment. There is new, agile regulation called the net zero reopener, which allows network operators to apply for additional funding for zero-emission projects.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

The noble Lord, Lord Howell, is absolutely right about the exponential increase in demand for electrical power. Does the Minister agree that the only way we can really achieve this and have the right amount of baseload power is through the use of nuclear? We really must put all our weight behind producing nuclear power, developing SMRs and getting it available; otherwise, there is no way we will meet this requirement.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My colleagues at DESNZ, as I believe it is called nowadays, will be cognisant of our need to produce a significant amount of renewable electricity in future, and I hope that nuclear is part of that.

[Baroness Deech (CB)]

Does the Minister see a connection between the previous Question and this one, and will she acknowledge that public transport in this country is in a dire condition? I drive electric. There is still nowhere to charge up here; one dare not go on a long journey because there is nowhere to charge. The train between Didcot and Oxford has been out of action for months. The main road from the west of Oxford to the station is being closed for 12 months. We are virtually prisoners in our own home. I dread to think what this is doing for the tourist trade and business generally, but nobody seems to care.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am very sorry to hear that the noble Baroness has experienced those issues in her local area; they are certainly not replicated across the country. She may be talking about the Nuneham viaduct, where there has been some subsidence. It closed on 3 April. We understand the frustration, but we are working very closely with GWR, CrossCountry, Chiltern and Network Rail to ensure that we get passengers moving. Engineers are working on the project, and we hope to have good news for the noble Baroness soon.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, I think the noble Baroness said that the grid said it was confident it could meet the challenges of HGV electrical supply. The problem is extremely sophisticated: it is likely to be grouped in hubs and there is likely to be very high demand. Electrical systems are basically rather fragile, and this needs a very sophisticated approach. Is the National Grid part of the Freight Energy Forum, and if not, why not?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The Freight Energy Forum feeds into the Department for Transport and, indeed, across government. While I accept that HGV depots will have significantly high demand for renewable electricity, other areas, particularly hard-to-abate sectors, will need much more. We are confident that with continued investment in the grid, we will be able to meet the needs of all the elements that need to be decarbonised, and that will uptick their electricity usage. As I mentioned previously, we have done that with a range of price controls, but also strategic planning for the future.

Rail Services

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Wednesday 17th May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Government for this Statement, and I welcome the decision. It really was the only one possible, because TransPennine Express not only was hopelessly failing to improve and to deliver an acceptable service but was guilty of wilfully attempting to deceive customers—and indeed the Government—by using P cancellations as routine. P cancellations are of fundamental inconvenience to passengers; they were going to bed in the evening thinking that they could get their early-morning train and waking up to find that it had been cancelled.

All areas of the country suffered from Covid, but not all train operating companies made such a hash of staff relations. I have said in this House before that I travel every week on Great Western Railway, and its recovery has been much smoother. It has relatively few cancellations, and the staff are pleasant, helpful and very well trained. Every week, I am very pleased that I am travelling on Great Western and not TransPennine. This Statement is long on anti-union rhetoric, but it fails to recognise or to say with any grace that good management in the rail industry is fundamental. It is important that good management in those train operators that have managed the situation well is recognised.

I am very pleased to see recognition in the Statement of the potential positive role of regional transport authorities. I was delighted to see that, and I hope it is fully followed through. However, the Statement says

“we are building unstoppable momentum towards rail reform”,—[Official Report, Commons, 11/5/23; col. 488.]

but there is no sign of the Great British Railways legislation which is fundamentally needed to sustain and boost that process. The Government will say that it is possible to create a lot of that structure without the actual legislation. However, in reality, you need the controlled, guiding mind to drive through all the other changes beyond those that can be done without the legislation. The uncertainty that currently exists has a crippling effect.

In practice, since Covid, we have, in effect, a nationalised rail industry, because the Government in the shape of the Department for Transport takes day-by-day, detailed decisions and does day-by-day, detailed funding. Therefore, despite the anti-nationalisation rhetoric in the Statement, without the legal creation of the mixed public-private vision of GBR as a concept—with which I agree—this Tory Government will bequeath a nationalised rail industry to their successor at the general election. We need a refreshed, cleaned-up service based on a contractual system that replaces the current failed train operating company franchise system, and we need a simplified, cheaper fare system. I would be very grateful if the Minister could address in her response what government plans there are for GBR legislation, whether that is definitely now kicked into the long grass beyond the general election, and, specifically, what, if any, government plans there are to introduce a wholesale, simplified fare system.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

I am grateful to both noble Baronesses for their contributions and I will endeavour to answer as many questions as possible. I will start with the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, who asked, “Why now?” Of course, it is very simple: it is because the contract is coming to an end. It is coming to an end on 28 May, so that is why we made the announcement on 11 May that the contract would come to an end and indeed it would then be handed over to OLR. Obviously, the decision was taken after much consideration. It was important to work in accordance with the policy statement that we had already published. We considered carefully whether to extend or award a new contract, and, after very careful consideration and with regret, we decided not to do so.

However, the Government are clear that we want to hold train operating companies accountable for those things that are within their control, and it is also clear that at TPE there were many things that were not in the management’s control and which will have impacted the services that were delivered to passengers. That included a very high level of absence, obviously the complete lack of rest-day working, and some very interesting shenanigans from the noble Baroness’s friends at ASLEF. In April 2023 they were offered literally the same deal for rest-day working that they had in December 2021 but they managed to say that that was not good enough. I do not know—I do not understand it any more. Clearly, we are in a situation where nothing is ever going to be enough, but of course it is the passengers who are suffering at the hands of the Labour Party’s friends.

Other issues have impacted TPE. It has had a much higher level of driver departures than would normally happen: 56 versus 25 in a normal year, and each one takes 18 months to replace. It is with regret that we felt that, despite an encouraging recovery plan, it was not going to reach a good conclusion. The reason why we felt that OLR was the right course of action is because it is an opportunity to reset and review. I say “reset” because there certainly needs to be a resetting of the relationship between TPE and all its stakeholders, whether that be government, the trade unions or indeed, quite frankly, their very poorly served passengers. Everybody within the industry wants TPE to succeed—except, potentially, the trade unions, which are not behaving as they should. I encourage all stakeholders involved in this, which includes the northern mayors and lots of council leaders, to work together to try to reach a good solution.

The Secretary of State has asked for an official review of services across the north to look at their effectiveness and delivery. It is worth recalling, and it seems rarely to get mentioned, that the TPE contract is the joint responsibility of the Department for Transport and Transport for the North, on which many Labour politicians sit. It is important to understand that chucking blame around about how ghastly the department is, is not really very helpful. We all have to work together to improve TPE’s services, and I hope we will be working closely, hand in hand, with Transport for the North to do that.

The noble Baroness once again brought up the issue of profits and dividends. I cannot give her a finance 101 class, because it would be wrong and potentially a bit rude. However, dividends are of course not the same as profits, as I am sure the noble Baroness understands. I cannot address that any further: I have tried before and it probably did not work, so I will just have to leave it.

As the noble Baroness will know, there are a number of reforms that we can do now. The key to that is work- force reform. The transition team is doing the long-term strategic plan. Workforce reform is key, but that has stalled. Why has it stalled? I think the noble Baroness knows the answer without me telling her.

Turning to the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson—

[Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)]

On the Minister’s last point, I did raise the issue of management. There are two sides to the story in any industrial relations issue, and there has clearly been some poor management involved here. I am not going to put blame on one side or the other, but I did ask the Minister to comment on how poor management in TPE was going to be addressed. On the issue of profit, TPE passengers find it extraordinary that such huge profits were taken and that they resulted in dividends to shareholders. This company, which had run the service so badly, was being rewarded, as were its shareholders, for that failure. Passengers find that extraordinary.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

But of course they were not. But anyway, we have been around those houses many, many times, and I am frankly unwilling to do so again.

Had the noble Baroness let me finish my remarks, I would indeed have discussed the issue of management, in order to cover some of the issues raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, but as she has once again raised it, this is what I meant by the review and reset moment. It is an opportunity for the OLR to come in. It will look clearly at every aspect of the business, including the recovery plan, with fresh eyes, and I very much hope that there will be a renewed attempt to encourage the trade unions to think very carefully about the future of the rail industry in this country, for which, as I have said before, I am deeply fearful.

Turning to the comment of the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, about P codes, she seemed to think that there was deception of the Government. I could not quite understand why that would be the case. I absolutely accept that we need to do something about the use of P codes, which are used by very few train operating companies. As she knows, the Office of Rail and Road is looking carefully at how it can improve the coverage of P code cancellations. From an industry perspective, we should make sure that they are almost never used, but sometimes they can be because there is train crew or rolling stock unavailability. Often, P codes can be used because there is engineering work, or whatever, which is clearly beyond the control of the train operating company.

As for somehow deceiving the Government by using P codes, I cannot see how that is possible, because the information about the performance of the train operating companies is assessed by independent evaluators. Unless the noble Baroness is suggesting that the train operating companies are pulling the wool over the eyes of the independent evaluators, of which I can see no evidence at all, I do not think the issue of P codes is wholly relevant in judging performance. It is relevant to the information provided to passengers, and that is why we asked the Office of Rail and Road to dig into it and think about how we can publish the most useful information. Of course, our ultimate goal is not to have short notice cancellations on or before the day due to lack of rolling stock or train crew.

The noble Baroness also mentioned the involvement of regional set-ups in rail, and I agree. That already happens with Transport for the North being involved in both TPE and Northern. Clearly, it is not a silver bullet, because TPE has gone the way it has despite the involvement of Transport for the North, but we agree with her that in future, making sure that strong regional economies are involved in their rail is critical.

We want to progress many elements of rail reform. We will bring legislation forward when parliamentary time allows. On simplified and cheap fares, I hope the noble Baroness has seen the announcement by LNER of a simplified single-ticket system, because that is the direction of travel. We do not want to roll it out across the entire system all at once because that might cause chaos, and then we would be accused of not having thought it through. But we are bringing it out—people will be able to buy tickets halfway through this month, so, very soon—to see how it works, because we believe it is a big step forward. I hope the noble Baroness will try it, and I will be very happy to take feedback from any noble Lord who has a go.

[Lord Beith (LD)]

My Lords, on the Scottish borders we have the absurdity that new stations are being opened—at Reston, for example, and East Linton—where the principal provider of trains is TransPennine. However, the service is so unreliable that it does not bother to publicise it, and it changes it at 10 pm anyway. The nationalised operator of LNER seems to be doing a not perfect but reasonable job in the circumstances. What confidence does the Minister have that the nationalised operator can tackle the problems that both sides of the House have talked about, which cannot be allowed to continue in their present state?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I agree that things cannot be allowed to continue in their present state. That is why we have brought in LNER, which will perform its duties and review every aspect, as I said earlier. Noble Lords should understand that this is not a silver bullet. I do not think we can expect a substantial change very soon, because we still have no rest-day working, as ASLEF will not allow it. Even if train drivers want to earn extra money, they cannot, because it is not being allowed. So it remains the case that only 80% of TPE’s drivers are fully trained, because there is a nearly 4,000-day backlog of training. Again, that cannot be done unless there is more flexibility within the train-driving community to allow that to be cleared, so it will take quite a long time, which is disappointing, but of course we hope to reset all relationships and move to a better future.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, I listened very carefully to the responses the Minister gave to the Front Benchers and, like many millions of passengers in the north, I am a little dismayed at some of the combative language that was used. I gently suggest to the Minister that, to solve this problem and get TPE working better, a little more collaborative language, rather than combative language, would be helpful.

I also point out to the Minister, who made cheap party-political jibes about Transport for the North, that it is a collaboration of all party leaders of all colours. It is chaired by a noble Lord who sits on the government Benches and includes the regional director at the Department for Transport, so please let us accept that as a united board across party politics, as well as the Department for Transport.

In so doing—and I hope the Minister will be a little more collaborative in the answer she gives me—one of the big issues for TransPennine Express, which many in the industry point out, is that part of the reason for the 56 drivers leaving is because they are being poached by freight companies offering double the salary. How does this new arrangement that the Minister has just explained help to deal with that problem? If it does not, what solutions does she suggest could be put in place to ensure that poaching does not continue and therefore cause a lack of drivers and the problem for passengers who use TPE services?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord, and I am sorry he felt that I was being combative. I think was slightly responding to the fact of it being the terrible Tory Government yet again, when it is about partnership working. If we are going to make our railways work in the future, it is with this sort of partnership working with TfN, which is an organisation I have a great amount of respect for. I worked very closely with it for three years in my role in the Department for Transport. I have an enormous amount of respect for TfN, but it is just trying to understand that there are other parties involved which have been trying to help make sure that TPE operates as well as possible.

I understand the noble Lord’s point about the drivers. It is something that the OLR will need to look at. I think there are two issues: recruitment and retention. TPE has been very successful in recruiting. It has recruited 113 new drivers this year versus only 57 last year, so I hope we can reset the relationship with the new blood coming in—obviously they take a while to train. TPE is already a great place to work. We just need to make sure that the drivers feel supported and able to stay with TPE as it goes into the management of the OLR.

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, I would like to press the Minister on timescales because the words “temporary measure” have been used. We are in a position now where over half of the UK rail network—that includes Scotland and Wales—is actually controlled by Governments. I feel as though the Government do not quite know what timescales they are operating to with their promise to return TransPennine, for example, to the private sector, at least through contract bidding. What measures are the Government going to use to decide whether TPE can be returned to the private sector? That question follows the other companies which have been put under government control—as I say, to put us in a position where more of the UK rail network is under government control than not. I simply do not know what the Government’s plan is any more. Where are we on Great British Railways? What is actually to happen? Have the Government got any ambition at all, or are they simply now responding to events?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I think it is twofold. Events in the rail industry are having a very significant impact on it and its long-term future, and I am worried about that. In terms of the train operating companies currently under the OLR, whether that be TPE or others, there is a process by which services are stabilised and in certain circumstances they are doing much better than they were before and that is fantastic news. TPE will go through the same sort of process to improve things as much as possible.

Then there would be a competition to procure a new operator. That is a two-phase process. The first is market appetite and the second is the competitive process. On market appetite, there is evidence to suggest—and I could not possibly explain why—some people might be slightly reluctant to get involved in UK railways at the moment. Obviously, that is really disappointing, but I think this goes to the heart of the problem. We want a good railway system or we do not. We need workforce reform. Industrial action is not all about pay; it is about workforce reform as well, and those two things must go hand in hand in order for us to have a modern seven-day railway which works for the passengers. That is what we are trying to achieve. Unfortunately, there are some roadblocks in the way at the current time.

Bus Funding

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Wednesday 17th May 2023 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall now repeat a Statement made in another place by my honourable friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State. The Statement is as follows:

“With permission, Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like to make a Statement on the steps that the Government are taking to ensure that bus travel remains accessible and affordable for everyone, while bearing down on the cost of living.

Let me start by summarising the situation as we find it. People across the country are facing massive cost of living pressures following Russia’s illegal invasion of Ukraine. That is why we have a commitment to halve inflation this year to ease the cost of living and give people greater financial security. For the bus sector, this comes on the back of a global pandemic that saw passenger numbers drop as low as 10% of their pre-pandemic levels. However, bus journeys are now recovering to around 90% of pre-pandemic levels outside of London. Taking the bus remains the most popular form of public transport, and millions of people rely on these vital services every day.

Local bus networks provide great access to work, education, and medical appointments, driving economic growth right across the country. They can be a lifeline for those for whom travelling by car or other forms of transport is simply not possible. That is why over the last three years we have invested over £3 billion to support and improve bus services in England outside of London. That level of investment was a sign of the times, but today we need to move out from underneath the shadow of Covid-19, where the sudden absence of passengers made it necessary for the Government to step in, first through the Covid-19 bus service support grant, and later through the bus recovery grant.

Of course, we face a challenge to return the network to its pre-pandemic footing while confronting fundamental changes to travel patterns, but buses remain a critical part of our transport infrastructure for many people, especially outside London in suburban and rural areas. Billions in government funding has been made available to keep fares down and keep services up and running. Bus routes have been kept alive which may have proven so uneconomic that they risked being scrapped altogether. Without them, whole communities would have lost out, risking people becoming disconnected, especially older and more vulnerable people. While we have seen overall patronage recover to around 90% of pre-pandemic levels, concessionary fares continue to lag significantly behind. We recognise that we can maximise opportunities to bring concessionary fares passengers back to the bus, and I will return to that point later.

Supporting bus services at their lowest ebb was the right thing to do. However, if the public purse alone props up bus services, that would not be a funding model; it would just be a failing business. It is not the business of this Government to allow our buses to fail. We must reform bus funding in the long term, and we will work with the sector to better understand its impact before moving ahead with any implementation. We must adapt to new levels of patronage, acknowledge that these are extremely challenging financial circumstances and balance the needs of taxpayers, the travelling public, operators and local authorities. All parts of the sector have their role to play.

The Government will play their part. Today I can announce a long-term approach to protect bus services, keep travel affordable and support the bus sector’s long-term recovery. I can announce that the Government will provide an additional £300 million over the next two years to protect vital routes until April 2025: £150 million between June 2023 and April 2024; and another £150 million between April 2024 and April 2025.

Some £160 million of that funding will be earmarked for local transport authorities through the new bus service improvement plan plus—a mechanism to improve bus services while empowering local authorities to make the call on how services are planned and delivered. It comes in addition to the existing £1 billion of funding from the national bus strategy that has already been allocated. It will be focused on communities that did not previously benefit from BSIP allocations.

In addition to this money, a further £140 million will be provided to operators through the ‘bus service operator grant plus’ mechanism, supporting them with the services they run, a package that means passengers can continue to rely on their local bus to get around. Alongside it, we will consult with operators and local authorities on measures to modernise and future-proof bus funding for the longer term. This is part of the Government’s vision to improve connectivity through the bus services that this country relies upon.

This funding—and our bus vision—will grow the economy and create better-paid jobs and opportunity in every part of the country. But, at a time when the cost of living is a challenge for many, we also recognise that price is a key barrier to growth. The more affordable travel is, the more likely passengers are to get on board. We understand that every penny counts.

This Government stepped up during the pandemic, with support for businesses and their workers with low-cost loans and—most vitally—the furlough scheme. Following Russia’s illegal invasion of Ukraine and the knock-on inflation caused by the energy price shock, we have stepped up again. We have delivered an energy package of over £90 billion—literally paying half the energy bills of households across the country, with extra support for the most vulnerable. We will halve inflation this year to ease the cost of living pressures and give people financial security. We will grow the economy, creating better-paid jobs and opportunity right across the country. In transport, we also understand the pressure on people’s finances. That is why we cut fuel duty by 5p per litre, kept train fare increases significantly below inflation, and introduced the ‘Get Around for £2’ bus scheme nationwide and provided the funding for local authorities in Greater Manchester, West Yorkshire and elsewhere to do the same.

The nationwide scheme was initially for three months, until 31 March this year. It was then extended by this Government until 30 June. Today, I can also inform the House that the Government will provide up to a further £200 million to continue capping single bus fares at £2 in England, outside London, until 31 October 2023. After this, we will continue to support bus passengers and the cost of living and we will replace this with a £2.50 fare cap until 30 November 2024, when the Government will review its effectiveness and future bus fares.

Since the £2 cap was introduced, it has saved passengers millions of pounds, boosted businesses and put bums on bus seats right across the country. This decision builds on the Government’s Help for Households initiative and supports everyone through the increased cost of living, especially those on lower incomes, who take nearly three times as many bus trips as those on higher incomes. It puts money back into people’s pockets and keeps them connected with key local services. It encourages millions of passengers to get back on the bus by knocking close to a third off the average single fare—and more for longer journeys. Taking this forward, my officials will work with the sector to confirm operators’ participation in the scheme. We will also undertake a review of bus fares at the end of November 2024 to support the sector in moving to a sustainable footing.

What I have shared with the House today is part of the largest government investment in bus services for a generation. It exceeds our Bus Back Better commitments by half a billion pounds, providing certainty to industry, securing value for the taxpayer and protecting access to vital services, delivering our priority to grow the economy and helping people with the cost of living. All the while, we will work with the sector to reform bus funding in the long term, and we will work towards affordable and reliable buses for everyone, everywhere, all at once. That is what the travelling public deserves. That is this Government’s ambition, and I commend this Statement to the House.”

My Lords, that concludes the Statement.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

My Lords—

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Perhaps I might first respond to the noble Baronesses. I am sure that the noble Lord is desperate to come in; I await his question with interest.

I could have stood before your Lordships’ House today with the moon on a stick and the noble Baroness opposite would still not have been happy. The noble Baronesses have been calling for a long-term bus funding plan, and this is it. It is not in any way a cut to funding; you cannot cut emergency funding. That was emergency funding and then recovery funding; this is something different. This is more money than buses have had for a generation. It is never going to be enough—£500 million for buses is fantastic news, yet the noble Baroness could not bring herself to be even the slightest bit happy about what it will do for our bus services.

I have heard rumours of what Labour is going to do about powers for local transport authorities, but I do not really understand it, because local transport authorities already have the power to put bus services in place. I am sure that the noble Baroness knows that. Perhaps when these plans come out, they will be pretty much what we have now.

I need to explain the situation to the noble Baroness. There is £300 million in total—£160 million plus £140 million, so roughly half and half. Half will go to local transport authorities, and they will be able to decide which services to tender. They have the power; they have always had the power. Remember, a bus operator has to tell the local transport authority in a confidential period of 28 days before it notifies the traffic commissioners that it intends to take a route away. At that point, the local transport authority can put it out to tender. We have literally given them the money to do that, but the noble Baroness cannot welcome that.

I do not understand what the Labour Party is going to do or what more powers local transport authorities could possibly have, unless Labour wants to renationalise all the buses as well. Perhaps that is where the noble Baroness thinks things will end up. I look forward to hearing from the Labour Front Bench what its plans are because, at the moment, it is completely unclear. That goes to her comments about unfettered powers that bus operators have to slash routes. That is just not true. As I said, local transport authorities can tender them. If the worst comes to the worst and their enhanced partnership does not work—as the noble Baroness knows, they can get into an enhanced partnership, working with the operators and the local transport authority; there is lots of power in that relationship between the two, to flesh out what the network should look like—they can franchise, as in Manchester. It is up to them. They have the powers to do so. But again, apparently all the power sits with the bus operators. I think they would probably say that it does not.

I note what the noble Baroness says about public ownership of some of the bus companies, and the ones that are left are very good. I think Reading is very good and Brighton is very good, but of course there have been plenty that fell by the wayside because they were not very good. There has already been a massive weeding out of the wheat from the chaff when it comes to publicly owned bus operators, so I do not think that is the silver bullet either.

I turn to the comments made by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, who sounded a little bit more chipper about the funding—but, again, not wholly. If I am able to answer some of her questions, perhaps she will feel a bit more positive. The money that is going to the local transport authorities will be for places that missed out on BSIP funding the first time around or those that got very low per-capita spend. We feel that it was not quite fair, and we have more money, so they should have it. There is actually a list about where the money is going, and I will see if I can send that to all noble Lords who are speaking in today’s debate. That list will be very helpful. We have allocated 50% of the funding on tendered milage, weighted by metrics of deprivation and car ownership, and 50% on population, weighted by delivery confidence. That is how we did it. We have put in deprivation and car ownership, to make sure that it is going to places that need it most.

The noble Baroness talked about capability and capacity of local transport authorities. Again, when I was buses Minister, we focused enormously on this. We feel it is so important that they have the capability to build their own networks, which is why we gave them tens of millions of pounds of funding, specifically for developing the BSIPs. It is not the case that, if they did not have a good system and they did not have the capability and capacity, they necessarily did not get BSIP funding; we did give them the funding. There are councils that are run by other political parties to my own that choose not to spend a single penny on tendered services, and that is very disappointing.

We continue to provide capability and capacity funding to local transport authorities specifically so they can put their enhanced partnerships in place. I hope that that money and that capability and capacity funding will work together to help enhance and protect those vulnerable tendered services.

An evaluation of the £2 fare cap has been published today, so the noble Baroness might want to have a look at that. There are high levels of awareness, with seven in 10 survey respondents being aware of the scheme and one-third of them saying that they felt that the scheme was having a positive impact on their disposable income—all sorts of different things. It is too early to decide whether there is a change in patronage solely down to the fare. Obviously, you have to disaggregate other elements. Other factors may be involved as well but, again, we are keeping a really close eye on that. But, overall, I think that the Get Around for £2 scheme has been hugely positive. I am really pleased that we can talk about it and extend it for quite a long time.

I turn to the issue of zero-emission buses, which is absolutely critical. The Government remain committed to supporting the introduction of 4,000 zero-emission buses. Since February 2020, so far, an estimated 3,452 zero-emission buses have been funded across the UK. In this Parliament, we have awarded £345 million of dedicated funding for zero-emission buses in England. I am aware that the noble Baroness’s zero-emission bus award fell through because the operator was not willing to put up the amount—and that is entirely up to the operator. But that money will go back into the pot, and other operators in different parts of the country will be able to make use of that. We also understand that the award of the grant kicks off a process that necessarily has to go through public procurement rules and so on, and those things take time. It is the case that we have to award the contract, build the bus and get it on the road—so, yes, it will take some time for those particular buses to get on the road, but they are coming. That is a very positive thing, and it is also a very positive thing for our bus manufacturers.

I remain positive about zero-emission buses. I believe that the cost of the buses is falling and that, sometime soon, bus operators may actually choose zero-emission buses without government support, because we will see total cost of ownership about the same. So I think that things are moving in the right direction, and I really welcome that.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

My Lords, as the former chairman of a major bus operator, I tell the Minister that any financial support for the bus industry is more than welcome. But her announcement today bears no resemblance to the promises made two Prime Ministers ago under the Bus Back Better project. The fact is that, no matter who runs the buses, the question of finance is always going to be there.

I address my remarks to my own Front Bench. There is an apparent belief that all we need to do to create a better bus service across this country is to give powers back to local authorities. Without proper finance, local authorities, which already struggle to provide the services that they have to provide now, will struggle even further.

Can I tell the Minister that the price of the average double-decker is currently around £250,000? A new electric bus costs around £400,000. The short-termism inherent in this package will not incentivise the bus industry to invest over the long term in fleets costing the sort of money that we are talking about here. Although the Minister made the best of a bad job, much of the finance that she has announced today is in fact short-term and not long-term. Without proper long-term financing, the bus industry will continue to struggle.

I hope that as somebody who helped set up what was a rather successful bus partnership between the private sector, in which I worked at the time, and the West Midlands Combined Authority I can say to the Minister, without causing any offence, that, again, finance was the key. We could get that sort of partnership and get successful bus services across the West Midlands provided that we got proper government support. So far, this package does not demonstrate proper long-term support for the bus industry. I have to say to the Minister —I repeat—that, welcome though it is, we need proper long-term planning if the bus industry is to invest properly in the vehicles of the future.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I have to remind noble Lords that this is not the only money the bus sector gets; there are many other streams that should be considered. I think there is just over £1 billion in concessions; there is the existing money, £260 million, from BSOG; and obviously there is some money in the block grant. All in all, we have to be realistic about what the bus sector is going to look like in the future. It will have to adjust to new travel patterns, but there is the combination of this new funding and the existing funding, which will stay in place, and we have committed to having conversations with the operators and local authorities about longer-term measures, which will include a reform of BSOG. I would not be surprised if that reform looked very carefully at emissions from buses. One could put that in place, although an element of BSOG is already based on zero-emission buses.

All in all, I am satisfied that the sector is getting the funding it needs, and we need to work as hard as we possibly can with the operators and local transport authorities to encourage people back to buses, including those who use concessionary fares. I believe that if we do that, if we use the capital spending from the BSIP effectively, and if we have bus lanes and bus priority in the right sorts of places to improve the passenger experience, that combination of input is really good. Sitting there and saying, “Just throw money at the problem” is not it. We have thrown money at the problem. We have carefully considered how much money it needs, and we believe that this is a good future for the bus service.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, I think that so far, the House may have been less than generous to my noble friend in the welcome they have given to her announcement. At a time of enormous pressure on public expenditure, an extra £300 million has been found to help the bus industry, and some funds going towards the caps. But I just pick up a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Snape. At the beginning of my noble friend’s announcement, she said:

“Today I can announce a long-term approach to protect bus services”.


But then, towards the end, she said that the cap would be reviewed at 30 November next year and said:

“We will also undertake a review of bus fares at the end of November to support the sector”.


Can I press my noble friend a bit more on that review? November next year may be a sensitive political time and I think the bus industry and passengers will want to know before the end of November what the outcome of that review is going to be. Will my noble friend say a little more about the review, which will have to be announced before the end of November? What is the timing of it and what is the consultation exercise that will be involved in identifying the outcome of that review? I assume it will involve consultation with local authorities, passenger representatives and operators, so a little more on the timing of that review would be very helpful.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for his welcome of this funding, this additional £500 million for the sector. Yes, he is right: November next year may well be a very sensitive political time. I suspect that the review will happen before the November period. One thing that needs to happen prior to the review kicking off is the completion of various reforms. Reforms to BSOG will be key. We will also need to see how travel patterns have been impacted by the fare cap. Again, we will be getting data back from operators as to the implications and the price elasticity of demand when it comes to fares, and whether they have encouraged people back on. So, I will write with further information if I have it, but I suspect the details of the review will become clearer in about spring next year, by which time we will have brought in some of the reforms we plan to undertake later this year, particularly around the calculation of concessionary fares reimbursements and BSOG. Those things need time to bed in, so we can see what the landscape looks like.

House adjourned at 7.45 pm.

Public Service Vehicles (Accessible Information) Regulations 2023

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Tuesday 16th May 2023 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Public Service Vehicles (Accessible Information) Regulations 2023.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, these draft regulations are being made to require audible and visible announcements on local bus and coach services across Great Britain. The powers to make these regulations were conferred by the Equality Act 2010, as amended by the Bus Services Act 2017.

The Government believe that everyone should be able to use their local buses confidently, safely and independently. For many disabled people, however, this can be incredibly difficult. Despite the strides made since the Public Service Vehicle Accessibility Regulations were introduced in 2000, certain stubborn barriers continue to frustrate, deter and in some cases prevent disabled passengers travelling by bus. Not least among these is the lack of information on board some buses. Using the bus might be straightforward enough for many passengers, but if you do not know where you are or where your stop is, your experience can quickly turn into a significant challenge.

Consider visually impaired people, for example. A survey by the charity Guide Dogs found that 70% of visually impaired respondents had missed their stop because the driver forgot to tell them when to get off. Faced with having to guess where to get off or to rely on strangers, many visually impaired people are understandably deterred from using the bus. On the London Underground, London buses and trains across Great Britain, noble Lords will have seen audio-visual announcements in action. This is not new technology: on-board announcements have been required on new trains since 1998. For more than 15 years, most bus services in London have provided on-board information, and certain operators, such as Brighton and Hove Buses and Transdev Blazefield, have led the way in their own areas. However, as noble Lords will be aware, there is still much more to be done.

Despite some good work by the industry, only 25% of vehicles in England outside London have the necessary equipment installed. This figure is 22% for Scotland and 34% for Wales. It cannot be right that from one town to the next the experiences of disabled passengers can be so radically different. Buses support people to lead fuller lives, connecting them to their communities. Unlocking the benefits of buses for everyone is key to this Government’s mission to level up and spread opportunity across the country. We want everyone to travel with confidence, whether they board a bus in London or Leeds, Edinburgh or Elgin, Cardiff or Carmarthen.

This is why we have introduced these draft regulations, which will require operators of local bus and coach services in Great Britain to provide audible and visible information on board the vehicle. They specify that this must include information about the route, the next stop, route termination, diversions and hail-and-ride sections. The regulations will establish a minimum standard of information that passengers should expect across the whole country. The Government’s goal is to see audible and visible information provided on virtually every vehicle used on local services, and we want to see it used to its full potential, not turned down or switched off. With this in mind, the regulations specify minimum requirements for text size and volume.

Since Ofcom research has consistently shown smartphone ownership to be lower among disabled people than non-disabled people, the regulations also prevent operators requiring passengers to use smartphones to access information. For the most part, however, these regulations are broadly “technology neutral” and focus on the information that must be provided. Operators will be able to choose the solutions that suit their services best. The emphasis on outcomes means that the regulations will make a clear and obvious difference to passengers, regardless of the technology used. For disabled people, this will mean the ability to travel much more confidently and independently, no matter where they are in Great Britain or which operator they travel with.

I think noble Lords will agree that all passengers stand to gain from having this information on board. Under the new regulations, any passenger will no longer have to rely on the goodwill or memory of a driver or passenger to tell them whether they are on the right bus or, indeed, when to alight, particularly when they are in unfamiliar territory.

In developing the regulations, we have struck a careful balance between the benefits to passengers and the costs of compliance to operators. Our extensive consultation with representatives of passengers, the industry and the devolved Administrations since 2018 has been vital to achieving this. As a result of this dialogue during the consultation period and subsequently, we have exempted certain types of services and vehicles from the new requirements, which will help keep them on the road and serving their communities. However, these exemptions are very limited.

By October 2026, the vast majority of local buses and coaches will have to provide audio-visual information to comply with these regulations. We have prepared guidance which will help the industry to understand the new requirements and go even further in capitalising on opportunities to enhance and promote upgraded passenger experiences for everybody.

As we look to achieve the aims of the national bus strategy, onboard information will have an important part to play in attracting those with a disability, and indeed those without one, back to buses. On enforcement, we know that operators will want to do the right thing; we will give them the information they need to comply. However, bus passenger groups such as Bus Users UK and London TravelWatch will be involved from day one in arbitrating on passenger complaints and referring them to the Driver & Vehicle Standards Agency where appropriate. If the DVSA identifies sustained, negligent, or intentional cases of non-compliance, the cases will be referred to the traffic commissioner. This measured, proportionate approach will empower passengers to secure and enjoy the benefits of these regulations. This will help to establish accessible information as a staple of the Great British bus user experience.

In summary, these regulations will drive significant improvements to the accessibility of local transport in this country. They will bring us closer to realising our vision of a country where local services truly work for everyone and nobody is left behind. I beg to move.

[Lord Borwick (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my interests in that I have a son with learning difficulties, and have trusteeships of charities in the register and lots of past interests in the accessibility industry and public transport.

This is an excellent statutory instrument filled with good ideas that will be helpful to a range of people with many different disabilities. However, I gather that consultation for it started in June 2018. Presumably work in the department started some time before that. Can my noble friend tell us when? After consultation, how can it possibly have taken five years to bring this statutory instrument in? Surely, if the consultation confirms that the idea is good, it must become a priority for the department to achieve it.

This is not particularly original technology; as my noble friend mentioned, it is available in many different countries around the world and in London. Yet a mature plan copying the system in other countries has taken five years to bring in. Is not the pride in having done so eclipsed by the shame that it took so long? Does the department consider five years to be reasonable in this matter? Can my noble friend say how many other disability measures are now outstanding? How long does the department expect it to take for them to be brought into action?

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I am getting old and I have done literally hundreds of SIs. I do not know what the number is, but I shall tell noble Lords one number that I know—the number where I have made any impact. It is zero. It has often been a painful zero because I have struggled with the paperwork and poorly written Explanatory Memorandums. While it is attractive to leap on the bandwagon of know-all Ministers’ friends and bash Ministers about the head regarding delays and all that, I praise the paperwork associated with this SI. It is well written, comprehensive and sets a standard—I say this loudly to the Minister—that in future I will expect all DfT SIs to meet.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, I am extraordinarily grateful for all the comments from my noble friends and all other noble Lords. They mostly welcome this SI because there is nothing in it that cannot be welcomed. I also welcome the enormous experience of the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, and his description of the time when he was working at TfL and the Tube. I agree with him; it is about culture, and one of our challenges is to inculcate that culture onto the buses. I do not know how many bus operators there are—the number 140 is in my head but I cannot remember—but it is a lot. Some operators are extremely small with fewer than 20 vehicles. This is about making sure that we bring everyone along with us, although I have to say that I expect some of the big operators in the larger metropolitan areas to be very much on the front foot with this. I expect that disability campaigners and representative groups will be on their cases— I hope that they are—to get dates for implementation from those companies that, frankly, have the wherewithal to do so quickly and set an example that others might follow.

I turn to some of the comments from my noble friends. The first was from my noble friend Lord Borwick. He was duffing me up a little. The “violent chastisement” of my noble friend Lord Borwick were the words of my noble friend Lord Young. I should like to say in mitigation that I was the Buses Minister for a vast period when we as the Government were considering this SI. I was pushing for improvements and to move things faster. It was disappointing every time when, as a Minister, I had to decide whether to reprioritise and re-timeline various things.

Covid has faded into the rear-view mirror, but it is extraordinary to me how, for more than two years of my life, it was all-consuming. For that time, as Buses Minister, saving the bus at all was my absolute priority, and it was a priority for the sector. I think there were two issues why the delay due to Covid happened. First, there was reprioritisation within my department as we were coming out of Covid—and we could potentially see the endgame—and we tried to get the national bus strategy out there to help in that recovery and to provide that strategic framework that we needed. Secondly, there was the ability of the operators to be able to give headspace to the very technical and detailed arrangements that they needed to consider to make these regulations right. Frankly, they were more concerned about keeping the buses on the road, keeping the drivers trained and recruiting drivers—all of the challenges that have either happened during Covid or subsequently.

While it is always regrettable when one has to deprioritise anything because there are other more pressing issues, having a stable bus network was the right priority at the time. I wish that we had been able to do everything at once but sometimes in Government, one just cannot. When it comes to these regulations and the technicality around them, it is because buses are not standard, and they can come from all sorts of manufacturers in various parts of the world. Therefore, there had to be a reassurance that whatever we put in the regulations worked on the buses that were available. Of course, the older buses are not particularly standard at all—some of them have very random seat configurations —and they often operate on the rural routes, the less profitable routes, or sometimes the supported routes by local transport authorities. They are the ones with the greatest vulnerabilities—so it is about getting that balance right between implementing those very important changes while making sure that we maintain all the benefits of buses which all noble Lords have already discussed today.

This was particularly reflected in the comments by my noble friend Lord Holmes in the way that buses can be the most inclusive form of transport and they are the best-loved form of public transport in our country. I thank my noble friend Lord Holmes for his positive remarks; he has been an assiduous campaigner in this area for many years. I completely agree that these benefits are for all people. There cannot be a noble Lord in this room who has not forgotten to get off the bus at some point or another. Our reflections in our analysis show that we do believe this will encourage more people on to buses—not just those with disabilities, but other people too as they feel reassured about the information provided on their journey. This is part of the mitigation for the cost of putting it in place in the first place.

My noble friend Lord Holmes also mentioned Northern Ireland. The matter of equalities is devolved to Northern Ireland. However, Translink, the bus operator there, has got audio-visual equipment widely deployed on its buses. I would encourage anybody to go to Northern Ireland, because it is a fantastic place for a holiday. Extra information can be added, but that is up to the discretion of operators. As I said previously, we expect some sort of increase in patronage as a result of this. It is difficult, obviously, to put a firm figure on it, but we do think it will be a positive outcome.

On floating bus stops, the Department for Transport is undertaking some research to ensure that they do the job they are intended to and can be operated safely. My noble friend Lord Holmes also mentioned bringing forward the review of the regulations. It is our intention to review them after five years, but noble Lords will be able to see our progress due to the annual bus statistics. This is a key document issued by the department, which collates all sorts of interesting information about buses, whether they are zero emission et cetera. One of the stats that we will put in that will be the extent to which this is being rolled out. I think that will enable the Government to think about whether it is going quickly enough.

My noble friend Lord Young mentioned support for smaller bus services. It is envisaged that the roughly £4.5 million will cover all the costs of implementation for those operators with fewer than 20 vehicles, which is incredibly welcome. He asked whether the bus driver could just shout, but visual information needs to be provided as well and the two often go hand in hand, so I do not think it would fulfil the requirements in the regulations for the bus driver just to shout.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

I am looking at Regulation 13, which is entitled “Requirements regarding audio information”. There is a lot about the volume, but it does not say that the information must come from a machine; it seems that it could come from the driver. I do not see where Regulation 13 excludes the driver providing the information.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

This might be one of those grey areas. My officials say that it is right that the driver could provide the information, but there is a minimum and a maximum volume for that information. I suppose that the driver could provide it, but I do not think this would be widespread across the bus industry, given that much of the technology links audio and visual together and the computers behind it project that information at the same time.

Information at bus stops is a key part of the national bus strategy. It is not the responsibility of the operators; they provide the information that is used for those real-time scoreboards at bus stops, but bus stops are operated by local transport authorities, as I am sure my noble friend knows. The BODS is the DfT’s means of collating as much real-time information as is available and making it available to local transport authorities, which can then put it into bus stops. Some of the BSIP funding we issued to successful local transport authorities recently will go into boosting the information at bus stops. I agree that it is very helpful to know when your bus will arrive.

The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, mentioned contrast. There will be further information on that; we have discussed it with campaigners and representative groups in this area. It will be in the guidance, which will come out this summer. There will be training for drivers; it will not be centralised as such, but the operators will be encouraged to make use of the REAL training syllabus and can sign up to the inclusive transport leaders scheme to make sure that staff have the knowledge and skills to support all disabled passengers.

The regulations apply to a service and not a vehicle. Therefore, if a vehicle is being used in different services—it might sometimes be running a scheduled service and sometimes be doing something else—it would still have to provide the information set out in the regulations.

I shall finish on enforcement, as I am conscious that I have spoken a fair amount. There are two main ways of enforcement. First, the Government will be able to check progress via the annual bus statistics, which come from industry, so we can chivvy people along as such. However, if elements go wrong for a certain customer or there is persistent non-compliance on a particular route or vehicle or by a particular operator, we would expect that passenger to escalate a concern to Bus Users UK outside London and to London TravelWatch inside London. That is the standard method; in my experience, passengers are very good at escalating concerns, particularly as this is such an important issue. We expect that bus operators will want to make their passengers aware of when they have fitted this technology in their area.

Global Britain: Traffic

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Monday 15th May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Moylan]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the effect on the success of their ‘Global Britain’ initiative that, for a second year in a row, the Inrix Global Traffic Scorecard has found London to have the highest traffic delay times of any city in the world.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, the balance of transport choices in London, including the relative importance given to car traffic, is a matter for the mayor and Transport for London. However, with the opening of the Elizabeth line last year, London’s reputation for efficient and modern transport has been demonstrated globally, an achievement for which many, including the noble Lord, can share credit.

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

My Lords, with bicycle lanes that have not increased the uptake of bicycling as a mode of transport, with ULEZ extended to parts of London that neither need nor want it, and with a Labour-run local authority now tendering out its speeding enforcement to unsleeping robots to maximise its revenue, does my noble friend the Minister not realise that people are at the end of their tethers and expect the Government to act to defend them from these depredations?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My noble friend is asking me to withdraw from the devolution agreement for London. We have no plans to do that, and I encourage Londoners to hold the mayor to account.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, I congratulate the Minister on what the Government have done to get more bicycle lanes and footpaths since Covid. The problem is that so many people are getting fed up with car drivers and cycle lanes are now very full. Can the Minister say whether she has any plans to increase the number of cycle lanes in London or anywhere else?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The Minister has no plans, because it is not up to the Minister to have those plans; it is up to the Mayor of London. The Mayor of London continues to invest in cycling and walking—that is his choice. The Government remain committed to cycling and walking as natural choices for the shortest journeys.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, there are many parts of London where 20 miles per hour zones have not yet been implemented by local authorities. There is good evidence from areas that have introduced them that they work very well in making the traffic flow more smoothly in areas of high congestion. Do the Government intend to encourage local authorities across Britain to look at this solution to congestion and delays?

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[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

As the noble Baroness well knows, the Department for Transport does not operate roads other than the major motorways. It is for the local authorities operating those roads, having consulted local people, to make those decisions, including the introduction of 20 miles per hour speed zones.

[Lord Lamont of Lerwick (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that it must have been an absolute miracle with divine intervention that enabled the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury to get a speeding ticket in central London? Is my noble friend Lord Moylan not right that this is a desperate situation? Whatever happened to the policy of lane rentals that was meant to charge contractors for taking up the space of roads while making alterations? It was meant to give them an incentive to complete works on time and to get rid of the spectacle we see all the time of roadworks with nobody there—including nobody working over the weekend—causing absolute chaos for the people of London.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am grateful to my noble friend for moving that question on. Lane rental schemes are a key part of the challenge of making sure that roadworks are taken down as soon as possible. In London, 69% of the TfL route network—the bit operated by the Mayor of London—is currently covered by lane rental schemes. I encourage all local transport authorities to look carefully at lane rental schemes, as they really can help to get roadworks finished on time.

[Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)]

My Lords, despite the funding announced in the Budget, the Government have still slashed pothole funding by almost a quarter in real terms since 2020, and cuts to local government funding leave councils unable to meet this gap from other funds. Does the Minister believe that the millions of potholes which remain unfilled, including those on cycle ways—we have 45 kilometres of them in Stevenage—contribute to traffic delays across the UK?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The Government are investing £8 billion over the next two years in all types of road enhancements and improvements, including £200 million for maintenance and potholes.

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

Is my noble friend the Minister comfortable that London is now rated the most congested city in the world? Is she equally comfortable that our major retailers in the West End are suffering in relation to trade from people coming into our country? Finally, even the City of London, the centre of finance, is itself complaining that this is affecting the City badly.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I think there is a slight question of clarification here. The data that my noble friend cites actually misses out several cities in the world. Lagos’s traffic is 10 times worse than London’s, and in Seoul it is twice as bad—so London is not the worst. However, what we have to understand, and what the Government understand, is that one needs a mixed economy for transport. Of course, car usage is important, but particularly in London, where excellent public transport is available, we need to make sure that we use that more. I note that traffic is back to 100% of pre-pandemic levels, but the Tube remains persistently below them. I think that the Mayor of London should be doing more to get people back on the Tube.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, it is quite clear that London’s traffic is grinding to a halt; I drive in it regularly. I have talked to the people doing work on my house, doing boilers—brickies, and this sort of thing. They say that they can achieve only two tasks a day rather than three, and this has a real economic impact on their lives and on this city of ours. It is a disgrace, and something must be done to speed it up and allow a freer flow of traffic.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I absolutely encourage the noble Lord to speak to his friend and colleague who currently holds the mayoralty for London. It is up to him to think about how that balance is achieved. I agree that there are challenges with regard to economic activity for those people who need to use the roads, and that is why the balance of transport is so important—and I believe that more can be done.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, I entirely welcome what the Minister has said about the high quality of public transport in Greater London. A similar quality for the north of England—an Elizabeth line between Manchester and Leeds, for example—would transform the economy of the north. Is that among the Government’s priorities for a long-term strategy for levelling up in the country?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

That is slightly beyond the scope of the Question. Obviously, the Government are committed to the integrated rail plan for the north, and the noble Lord will know that we are investing £5.7 billion under the CRSTS for sustainable transport schemes in many of our major cities.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

Is my noble friend aware that many of us look back with fond nostalgia to the days when London had one mayor living in the Mansion House? Would not it be a very good idea if we looked again at the whole idea of giving so much power to such an incompetent man and instead had a proper London authority? Bring back the old days!

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, sometimes it is impossible to go back to the old days, and this Government have no ambition to withdraw from the devolution settlements that are in place.

[Lord Austin of Dudley (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I invite the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, and other Members of your Lordships’ House to join us on the annual bike ride of the All Party Parliamentary Group for Cycling on 13 June so that Members of your Lordships’ House can see that getting out of cars and on to bikes cuts congestion, is good for health and the environment, and a much quicker way to get around London.

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[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

That is excellent free advertising for the noble Lord, and I am sure that many in your Lordships’ House will join him.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My Lords, I think that the Minister in an earlier answer told the House that the Government had set aside £200 million for the repair of potholes. I assume that that is across the whole country. If it is not—and she is shaking her head—could she tell the House what estimate the Government have made of the cost per pothole?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I shall write to the noble Baroness with further clarification of my remarks, because the £200 million is in addition to other funding and, unfortunately, I do not have that figure with me today.

[Lord Haselhurst (Con)]

My Lords, on the basis of the evidence that we have so far of the effect of the Elizabeth line on the traffic flow through London, should we not now be dusting off the papers about the possibility of a Crossrail 2? It should not be forgotten.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, there are many competing demands on the Government’s resources. Certainly, Crossrail 2 would have its benefits, but we need to look at that in the context of other projects that might come to pass.

Vehicles: Headlamp Glare

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Tuesday 9th May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

To ask His Majesty’s Government, further to the Written Answer by Baroness Vere of Norbiton on 31 March (HL6792), what progress has been made at the United Nations to amend headlamp aiming criteria so as to reduce the risk of glare from LED and other light sources.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, the United Nations Economic Commission for Europe’s road vehicle lighting expert group met at the end of April and agreed changes to the headlamp aim requirements to reduce the occurrence of glare. This includes the introduction of mandatory automatic headlamp levelling systems for all types of headlamps in new vehicles, most likely from 1 September 2027.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for that Answer, which deals only with the aiming of the lights and not the lights themselves, and for the meeting that she had with me. However, the Department for Transport seems to think that, because no deaths have been recorded, there is not a problem. In fact, the College of Optometrists reports that nearly all their members are seeing patients presenting with what they think is a problem with the eyes, to discover it is the lights from cars that are at fault rather than their sight. Many people are in fact choosing not to drive at night because of that. Since my last Oral Question, I have heard from cyclists saying they have a problem, and from motorcyclists who say that, when it is wet, there is a real dazzle with the visors. There are three-quarters of a million cars retrofitted with unregulated LED lights; that is a real road safety issue. Could the Minister perhaps get the department on to the front foot, to get some research done and get some action? We should not wait for accidents and deaths before we do something about this problem.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am delighted to let the noble Baroness know that the department has already done research in this area. The 2018 research concluded that overall there are no direct adverse health effects from LED lights in normal use. However, the crux of all this—the noble Baroness did point it out—is that there is no evidence of any causal link at all to headlight glare causing accidents. Glare is subjective; sometimes it can be caused by poor eye health, which can be corrected in certain circumstances, but we cannot eliminate glare altogether, because of course having headlights pointing in the right direction is essential for road safety.

[Lord Aberdare (CB)]

My Lords, can the noble Baroness tell us whether and how the issue of headlamp glare is addressed as part of the MoT testing process? I understand that many newer headlamps may not be properly checked for aim during an MoT inspection because the equipment used by MoT testing stations to accurately measure aim does not work with the latest high-intensity headlamps. What steps might the Government take to remedy this, or indeed to include brightness as well as aim in the MoT testing criteria?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I will have to take that back to the department. It is not an issue I have come across previously. Headlight aim and bulbs are checked at the annual MoT test but, obviously, if there is not the correct equipment to do that we need to do something about it. Again, I will have to take that to the department; it is not something that has previously been brought to my attention.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, if the Government intend to bring in some regulations on glare, could it be extended to the glare from cycle headlights? Some of them are very bright and dazzle you at night. In this House many noble Lords talk about cycles with no lights, which is just as dangerous, but perhaps she could just look at the new lights that some cyclists use and check that they conform as well.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am not aware that there are regulations around the use of bright lights for cyclists. I agree that they could indeed cause glare and be a road safety issue and, again, I will take that back to the department.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

The noble Baroness is urging action by the Government on a road safety issue, and another area where we need action is on e-scooters. Research by the Parliamentary Advisory Council for Transport Safety shows that between 2019 and 2021 we went from zero accidents involving injury to roughly 1,400, and reports by A&E services show that a disproportionate number involve head injuries. We have been promised a major transport Bill for four years now, so are we going to get that before the general election? As we have illustrated this afternoon, there are a number of road safety issues that need including in it. If not, do we put it down as another broken government promise?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The Government are of course looking very carefully at the evidence around e-scooters, are considering policy, and will bring proposals before Parliament when parliamentary time allows.

[The Earl of Clancarty (CB)]

My Lords, I also thank the Minister for seeing some of us about these concerns. Can she say whether headlights causing glare potentially have a disruptive effect on wildlife, including mammals and bees, as is now being argued for daylight-approximating LED street lighting in locations where efforts are being made to reduce such lighting to enhance the environment?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am not aware that there are specific concerns around wildlife and headlights. There are certainly sometimes concerns about where wildlife crosses a road very frequently, and there is a road sign now available to warn drivers that this may be the case. If the noble Earl has any evidence, I would be very happy to see it.

[Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)]

My Lords, in the past decade the number of passenger cars produced in the UK has declined from over 1.5 million to fewer than 800,000. Growing the UK’s motor manufacturing industry would not only provide a real boost to the economy and create jobs but also allow the Government to support the production of better-quality and well-regulated vehicles, including specifying safety features such as headlamp criteria. What steps are the Government taking to support the car manufacturing industry?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Actually, what the Government are doing to support the car manufacturing industry is working in lockstep with our colleagues internationally. As the noble Baroness will know, many of the regulations around type approval for cars come from this international community—about 75%. The extent to which we are able to work with our friends and neighbours in other countries on road safety issues means that this provides the level playing field that the UK automotive manufacturing sector needs.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

Does my noble friend agree that one of the curses of the age is light pollution? It is very difficult to go anywhere and enjoy natural evening light. While I accept the importance of safety features on vehicles, can the Government also do something to encourage developing more areas which are not polluted by light?

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[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

That is slightly beyond my brief but, from a transport and a car perspective, one of the reasons why we have dipped headlights is to prevent light pollution for other drivers and for pedestrians et cetera using the roads

[Baroness Hussein-Ece (LD)]

My Lords, my noble friend specifically asked a question about safety and e-scooters; I do not think it was dealt with in a way that the House might want. The figures I have are 1,352 collisions—compared with 460 in 2020—1,434 people injured and 10 killed, all of whom were e-scooter riders. That is Department for Transport information. Could the Minister answer the question about what is being done to improve road safety for pedestrians, cyclists and other road users?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am unable to say much more then I said before. I welcome the stats that the noble Baroness gave the House. The Government are also looking at the evidence that they are collating and are considering policy. We will make a decision as to how we take forward these new forms of transport in due course.

Merchant Shipping (Fire Protection) Regulations 2023

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Tuesday 2nd May 2023 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 3 March be approved.

Relevant document: 33rd Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, the draft regulations before the House relate to the fire safety of all passenger ships on international voyages, a limited class of passenger ships on non-international voyages, all cargo and sailing ships of 500 gross tonnage and over, and UK pleasure vessels of 500 gross tonnage and above. It makes provision for different generations of ship, with the fire protection requirements differing slightly between the generations.

The statutory instrument will be made under safety powers conferred by the Merchant Shipping Act 1995. It is subject to the enhanced scrutiny procedures under the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018—and therefore there is an affirmative procedure today—because it revokes an instrument that was amended by Section 2(2) of the European Communities Act 1972. The instrument does not implement any EU obligations.

I acknowledge the amendment to the Motion relating to this instrument in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Scott of Needham Market, referencing the time taken to make these changes to the domestic statute book and other delays to international maritime secondary legislation. In its 33rd report of Session 2022-23, the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee—SLSC—noted that the

“DfT is gradually addressing its backlog of implementing international maritime legislation but these Regulations illustrate why we were so concerned that it was allowed to accumulate in the first place”.

I will address the amendment to the Motion and the SLSC’s remarks, but I turn first to the instrument under consideration today.

The draft regulations implement the most up-to-date requirements of chapter II-2 of the International Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea 1974, known as SOLAS, and bring UK domestic law up to date and in line with internationally agreed requirements. The draft regulations contain direct references to the vast majority of the requirements of SOLAS chapter II-2. These references are made ambulatory, so future updates to the provisions will be given direct effect in UK law when they enter into force internationally. This will assist the UK in keeping legislation up with international requirements.

The regulations will revoke and replace the Merchant Shipping (Fire Protection) Regulations 2003 and the Merchant Shipping (Fire Protection: Large Ships) Regulations 1998—the latter apply to ships constructed before 1 July 2002 and the former to ships constructed on or before that same date. The regulations will further improve the fire safety standards for ships and will enable the UK to enforce these requirements against UK ships wherever they may be in the world, and against non-UK ships when they are in UK waters. This provides a level playing field for the industry.

I turn to the content of the SI. Chapter II-2 of SOLAS contains provisions for structural fire protection, fire detection and fire extinction on ships. This includes the prevention of fire and explosion, suppression of fire, escape from fire, operational requirements, alternative design and arrangements, and other requirements specific to particular situations. Chapter II-2 is supplemented by the fire safety systems code and the fire testing procedures code. All are amended from time to time in the International Maritime Organization—IMO.

A number of amendments have been agreed in the IMO and have come into force internationally since UK law was last updated in 2003. Amendments contained in 20 resolutions have been agreed at the IMO over the years since 2003, with the most recent changes being made in 2020. Those amendments further improve the safety standards of fire protection but have not yet been implemented into UK law. The UK supported the amendments during IMO discussions and, as a party to SOLAS, now has an obligation to implement these further updates. Amendments include, but are not limited to, new requirements for cabin balconies, tanker gas measurement equipment, fire test protocols for materials placed on ships and requirements related to vehicle spaces—they can be quite technical. Details of all 20 amendments are set out in the Explanatory Memorandum to this instrument in the normal way.

I turn to the amendment to the Motion in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Scott of Needham Market, and the recent remarks by the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee to which I previously alluded. Keeping pace with the frequent amendments to international maritime conventions is challenging and requires frequent updating of the implementing legislation to keep up to date. The Department for Transport has an extensive secondary legislation programme but limited policy, analytical and legal resources with which to carry out that task. That has required some prioritisation, particularly over recent years, and a backlog relating to implementation of international obligations has been allowed to develop. I am not content with the situation, nor was my predecessor; in fact, it was my predecessor who put in place an action plan to address it.

However, it should be noted that the lack of domestic statutory underpinning did not prevent enforcement, and there are powers in the Merchant Shipping Act 1995 that allow for prosecutions to be brought. For example, Section 100 places a duty on the ship owner to take all reasonable steps to make sure that a ship is operated in a safe manner; failure to do so is an offence. Section 98 of the Act allows for prosecution where a ship is found to be dangerously unsafe. However, making these draft regulations is necessary to bring the changes to SOLAS into UK law, and doing so provides the clarity and certainty that the industry requires, particularly in relation to specific offences and penalties.

I reassure your Lordships’ House that the Government are committed to clearing the maritime backlog. Good progress has been made on clearing the international backlog, which was identified in October 2021 by Robert Courts MP, the then Minister for Maritime, as comprising 13 instruments. Four of the 13 instruments currently remain to be made, with the instrument before your Lordships’ House today being one of them. The remaining three instruments will be consulted on in the coming months for the purpose of making them this year, ensuring that the international maritime backlog will be cleared before the end of 2023.

My department is also planning ahead for the implementation of future amendments to international maritime conventions, including for amendments that are still at the negotiating stage in the IMO and the International Labour Organization, the ILO. However, the House should note that there is often a fairly limited period between the adoption of the final, agreed text and the international in-force date. This is the case with both the IMO and the ILO. Therefore, in some cases, a short delay in implementation, owing to the parliamentary procedures in the UK, is inevitable. However, the objective remains that such a delay will be an exception rather than the rule, and that any delay will be as short as possible.

Approval of these regulations is crucial to ensuring that the UK meets its international obligations. The UK has already agreed to the amendments in the IMO. The Government are taking action to clear the maritime backlog and are on target to clear the international backlog by the end of the year. I beg to move.

Amendment to the Motion

Moved by

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)]

My Lords, first, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Scott of Needham Market, for moving this regret amendment, which has enabled a good discussion around the issues of compliance on these very important regulations—and I thank the Minister. I certainly get a sense that a real grip is now being taken of some of the issues raised by the amendment. I was grateful for a very detailed and thorough response. I echo the noble Baroness, Lady Scott, in that my comments are certainly not directed at the Minister who is responsible for this now, or at the civil servants dealing with this backlog.

There cannot be many more terrifying prospects than of a fire at sea. The enormous risk to crew and passengers and to those who are charged with rescue, as well as those in adjacent ports and harbours, are incalculable. Therefore, while we would not wish to hold up the implementation of these much-needed regulations, we, too, feel that questions need to be answered relating to the inexplicable delay, in some cases of 20 years, in implementing such a critical safety regime. We note that contained within the wording of the regulation and the Explanatory Memorandum is the detail of a very significant backlog in implementing international legislation which needed very urgent attention from the Government.

We, too, were very grateful for the report of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, which pointed out that the IMO requirements on firefighting and fire protection matters were last implemented in 2003. We note the 20 further IMO resolutions agreed that apply to ships of more than 500 gross tonnes, whether carrying cargo or passengers. It quotes DfT figures that there are 440 ships on the UK flag subject to the IMO requirements in this instrument, of which, as the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, said, 324 are “mostly in compliance” and wholly or partially UK-owned. It is the Maritime and Coastguard Agency that has determined that these are “mostly in compliance”. However, I am a bit concerned about that term as well. What does “mostly in compliance” actually mean? Do we have a specific number of those surveyed, and what are the gaps in compliance? Is the Minister able to estimate how many ships are not currently compliant with these regulations and what steps will be taken to inform them of the importance of compliance before these regulations go any further in being implemented? As the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, said, “mostly in compliance” is not very reassuring, and I would agree with that.

It is only when these regulations come into effect that the UK can enforce the same requirements on foreign-flagged ships in UK waters. Can the Minister respond to the question asked by the SLSC about why the DfT has taken so long to address the backlog? She partially gave us some answers to that but, as she said, there was a report to the House of Commons from Robert Courts MP in 2021-22, and she stated that the backlog would be cleared by the end of 2023. If I heard her correctly, four of the regulations have taken 20 years to produce. Will we get the other nine done by the end of year? I hope that is the case.

The Minister stated that resources have been a very significant issue in that backlog. The noble Baroness, Lady Scott, said that this seems like a systemic failing, and I cannot help but feel the same thing, with all the instances documented by the SLSC. It is very worrying. I wonder whether the Health and Safety Executive, for example, would take as an acceptable justification that resources were the issue, if there was non-compliance. I say that having been the leader of a local authority that was subject to Health and Safety Executive regulations.

I note that there is provision in the instrument for five-yearly reviews, which we are pleased to see with such important safety legislation. However, will sufficient resources be made available to carry out this thorough review process, if they have not been to implement the regulations themselves?

I have a number of questions on the regulations. I note the requirement for the Secretary of State to give approval to submissions relating to ships. Will these approvals be done on submission of written evidence, or will there be a requirement for inspection to ensure compliance with the relevant merchant shipping notices?

In relation to the exemptions set out in Clause 10, how does the Secretary of State reassure himself or herself that the exemption is valid and, under Regulation 10(7), where does the liability sit if the Secretary of State signs off an exemption which is later found to have resulted in loss of property or life? Is it with the owner or master, or with the Secretary of State?

Regulation 11 sets out details of a regime of engineering analysis in relation to exemptions. What analysis has been done of the likely workload for this and the capacity within the DfT to manage the review of the submitted engineering analyses? If the answers to those questions are not available immediately, I am happy to take written responses.

My noble friend Lord Berkeley gave the example of the “Pentalina”. On that incident, I commend the work of the RNLI, which very quickly rescued all 60 passengers, which was its usual fantastic work. I was also very reassured to hear my noble friend with his customary advocacy for Scilly passengers. I want to mention the example of the “Felicity Ace”, given by my honourable friend Mike Kane MP and mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Greenway. The Commons debate on these regulations set out new risks associated with the carriage of electric vehicles on shipping. In this example, which was cited, a serious fire took place on the “Felicity Ace” earlier this year. Some 4,000 cars were being carried, and although, thank goodness, no lives were lost on that occasion, the ship sadly sank to the bottom of the Atlantic, as the fire continued to be fuelled by the lithium batteries in the cars. I am aware that the land-based fire service has some concerns relating to similar risks, so this is clearly an important issue for shipping fire safety regulations to take into account. Can the Minister give us an update on how that risk is being considered, specifically in relation to fire safety on shipping?

The Conference on Fire Safety at Sea, held in 2022 in Lisbon, identified 20 specific challenges for vehicle-carrying ships. These are currently being assessed for their impact on risk reduction and cost, and advisory groups are being set up with operators and flag states. It is estimated that the potential of this work to significantly strengthen independent fire protection is between 35% and 45%. Will that data be considered as these regulations are implemented?

Lastly, I note that only five responses were received to the consultation on these regulations. Can the Minister tell us what consideration was given to extending the consultation or to approaching operators directly to achieve a better response rate? We also note that four of the five consultation responses, while supporting the ambulatory reference provision contained in the regulations—we agree that it is very sensible that these regulations are now updated automatically, as international regulations are updated—asked that arrangements be put in place to consult operators to ensure that changes are discussed with them before they are made. Will the Minister comment on any steps that have been put in place to do this?

We look forward to hearing the Minister’s response to the further points raised in this debate. I am sure there can be no argument relating to the critical importance of safety at sea, so we are keen to hear why this has all taken so long and to learn how any lessons learned from the delay will be used to improve the process for the future. Our maritime nation depends so much on our ability to trade, travel and ship goods safely. We owe it to all those involved to ensure our ships meet the highest fire and other safety standards, without decades of delay for the implementation of internationally agreed regulations. I do not think there is any disagreement across the House on any of that. We need to make sure that the systems and resources are in place to deal with it.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, I am enormously grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part in this short debate covering the ground of the regulations themselves and of course the backlog, which I am aware has been debated a number of times in your Lordships’ House, both in the Chamber and in Grand Committee in the Moses Room. Indeed, we will probably debate it again a few more times before the end of the year, as the backlog will once again resurface, and there will no doubt be further debates on the bits of secondary legislation that come through. However, I believe I can give myself some credit. I was a bit savvy before the debate today, in that I wrote to the SLSC last week; towards the end of the week, I placed a copy of the letter in the Library, and I will obviously share it with all noble Lords who have spoken today. It is the latest update on the international maritime backlog. If I could wish it away, I sincerely would, but I will no doubt be on my feet in front of your Lordships many times to explain that I am doing my absolute utmost to make it go away.

It is important to note that, in all circumstances, resources are never unlimited—they simply are not. The noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, said that I stated that this was a very significant issue. I never said that—I did not say that at all. Of course resources must be considered, and of course any Government of any colour will need to prioritise. In these circumstances, we did prioritise: the Department for Transport and the Maritime and Coastguard Agency prioritise in the secondary legislation that we bring through. The Department for Transport has an enormous secondary legislation programme, and one of the limiting factors is not resources in the department but the time that your Lordships have to consider secondary legislation—parliamentary time is one of our biggest challenges in getting secondary legislation, or indeed other legislation, through.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

Before the Minister finishes on resources, can I make a comment? Most of the detailed work on catching up falls on the MCA. I have heard quite a few comments from people who deal with it saying that it is very short-staffed. The Minister shakes her head but I have heard it from other people. They say it is partly because the pay rates are pretty low but also because there is a shortage of people with the necessary highly technical experience. Perhaps she would look into that. I hope it is not what is restraining catching up.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Obviously, the MCA is quite a large organisation and has many different people fulfilling different roles. The question is whether we have the right people focusing on the backlog at this moment. We absolutely do, and I still intend to get the backlog cleared by 2023. I think that would be welcomed by all.

On the various other issues mentioned by noble Lords, it is worth reflecting on the impact of the delays of these regulations to UK ship fire safety. The vast majority of the ships on the UK register, to which these regulations apply, trade internationally. The vast majority will have been built with these regulations in mind. They already operate internationally and therefore need to comply with these requirements in other port state jurisdictions. We have seen no evidence that delays in introducing this instrument have led to an increased risk from fire on ships to which it would apply. Indeed, looking at the MCA surveys and detentions data, we believe that compliance with the requirements of SOLAS chapter II-2 has been very good. Since 2015, 21 UK ships have been detained for fire-related non-compliance, but none of these detentions related to contraventions of the requirements of SOLAS II-2.

As I noted in my opening remarks, there are other ways for the MCA to enforce against unseaworthy and unsafe practices on ships. We consider the elements within the contravention at all times. The MCA already provides advice on the convention, whether or not those amendments have already gone into UK domestic law, because they are advising ship owners and operators about when they are travelling beyond UK waters, when they will have to comply. It is not the case that we are starting from a clean slate and have ship owners and operators who do not know that this is coming down the track. They absolutely do: these are international ships plying international waters, and therefore they will be complying. The MCA has found no evidence that they are not. There is no question that the MCA is not keeping up with the changes per se, as a noble Lord or noble Baroness mentioned. It is just that the legislation has not been put in place.

A number of noble Lords mentioned the ambulatory references. The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, seemed to imply that it was a new thing but, again, it is not. We have been doing it for quite some time, particularly for maritime regulations. As the noble Lord, Lord Greenway, pointed out, that is a way that we can stop this backlog building up again in the future, because one does not then need to go back to the original secondary instrument and change it whenever amendments are made. That is why we do it. Indeed, there are many more amendments coming into force on 1 January 2024, I believe.

There are safeguards that should be in after consultation with the industry. We are satisfied that we have very good consultation routes into the industry around SOLAS changes. If there are objections and the UK Government decide that they want to object to something, we would pass further secondary legislation to exempt that particular thing. In general, we believe that we have a high standing within the IMO, and we nearly always agree with the changes that go through. Therefore, we feel that putting in ambulatory references is absolutely the way to go.

I welcome the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, to the SLSC. I do not know whether I should be more or less terrified now as my secondary legislation goes through that committee, but I am sure that her immeasurable experience will be very helpful in that scrutiny. As I noted, there will be a few more to come before the end of the year.

I cannot give a timeline on the review of the domestic legislation and regulations for domestic voyages and ships. In maritime, there are different regulations for different types of vessels on different types of water, which is why it is so very complicated and needs to be reviewed and why we did not simply lump all the domestic vessels in with these regulations; that would not have been right. If I have any further information on the timeline, I will certainly write.

Which regulations cover other vessels is hugely varied. It never ceases to amaze me how many classes of ships there are. There are regulations relating to workboats, fishing vessels, domestic passenger vessels and so on, so I cannot provide a specific example covering all possible types of vessels. In general, naval ships will follow these regulations. However, they may have certain exclusions because of their need to carry out warfare, so they might be slightly different. The MCA still inspects naval ships, but they have a slightly different arrangement with the MoD, given the different tasking of those vessels.

I briefly want to cover the retained EU law point. Obviously, the retained EU law Bill is continuing its passage through Parliament. My department has the resources available and is starting to plan the legislative programme that will follow that Bill when it comes into law.

I am convinced that there are other things that I have not yet answered, but I will be very happy to write. In doing so, I will include a copy of the letter that I wrote to the SLSC on a recent update. I look forward to discussing maritime secondary legislation again with noble Lords in the future.