Airports: Delays

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Thursday 30th June 2022 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, Ministers have been very clear that the current situation is unacceptable and that passengers must be properly compensated where applicable. We are working closely with industry as it resolves the current issues and today the Transport Security announced a set of 22 measures that this Government are taking to support the aviation industry.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

I am grateful to my noble friend. Responsibility for the chaos rests primarily with the airports, which are not providing the necessary support services, and with the airlines, which cannot provide the flights that people have paid for. To improve the industry’s response, a fortnight ago my noble friend set up a strategic risk group to meet weekly. Can she tell the House what fresh solutions that group is working on to minimise disruption to holiday travel; in particular, is it looking at lifting the restrictions on night flights?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My noble friend is absolutely right. The strategic risk group is now well under way. It meets weekly at the highest level. It is a CEO-level meeting with the Aviation Minister. It is working on all of the mitigations to the risks as they become higher up the priority list and therefore more urgent. The 22 measures are some of the things that have resulted from the strategic risk group and, indeed, from other conversations that are happening, particularly on the operational side of matters. On night flights, the Government are well aware that there is always a balance between the aviation travelling public and the communities that live and work near airports. The current rules extend to October 2025 and the Government have no plans to change them.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, is it not about time that the airlines stopped selling tickets that they cannot deliver? Should they not reduce the number of sales until they are absolutely certain that they, the airports, their colleagues and the immigration centre have enough resources?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

That is exactly what the Government have said to the aviation sector. The Government and the CAA wrote to the sector, both the airports and airlines, to set out the expectations for both over the summer period. The first of those is that summer schedules must be reviewed to make sure that they are deliverable. To that end, the Government are changing the regulations with regard to slots, to introduce a slot amnesty for a part of the summer.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, is it not time that the Government took some action on behalf of the airline passengers? If we take the levelling-up strategy, for example, how can it be right that British Airways charges more than £500 for an economy return fare from Glasgow or Edinburgh if it is booked a week in advance? The travelling public are treated very badly by the airlines. In the past, my noble friend has rejected Written Questions from me suggesting that the Government should intervene, which I am sympathetic to, but this is just simply out of hand. The public are being taken for fools.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I maintain my position on intervening in the price of flights, but we are absolutely intervening in terms of the standards of care that passengers receive from the aviation sector. Again, as I mentioned, in the letter that we have recently written to the industry, one thing that we made very clear was that passengers must be informed promptly of their consumer rights. Obviously, passengers should take those up with the airline itself and then with the CAA if it is not acceptably resolved with the airline.

[Lord Woodley (Lab)]

My Lords, as we know, the recent airport delays are undoubtedly a direct result of opportunistic employers such as BA slashing jobs, pay and conditions during the pandemic. Now, unfortunately, we can all see that the chickens are indeed all coming home to roost, with many airlines too slow to rehire and refusing to restore wages that were stolen from staff under the cover of Covid. However, I am pleased to tell the House that, thanks to my union Unite, members working for CAE cabin crew have now secured an 18% pay rise—yes, 18%—and £1,200 summer bonus. Does the Minister agree that BA should follow suit and reverse its 10% pandemic cut for everyone, not just for management as is currently the case?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

As I am sure the noble Lord will not be surprised to learn, the Government will not get involved in the pay and conditions discussions within the aviation sector, as it is a private industry.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend share my frustration that, on every passenger ticket that is purchased, an airport passenger tax is taken? The number of passengers who are travelling should not come as a bolt from the blue, either to the airports or the airlines. What action is the CAA taking in this regard?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am not entirely sure that I follow my noble friend’s question. We are taking all sorts of actions, as set out in the 22 measures that the Government announced today. That is from working with the ground handlers, where there is an issue with people getting their suitcases, to working with the airports to ensure they are able to cope with the number of flights arriving, and the airlines to ensure that their service is as good as possible and that they can meet their schedules, not cancel flights at short notice.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, do the 20-plus measures that the Minister referred to include additional staff for the Border Force, to make sure that it always has the capacity to deal with the additional security requirements that the Minister referred to in her Written Answers to me, which require the staff to take additional measures and time? Will there always be efficiency and sufficiency of staff for the Border Force?

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[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Yes, I can absolutely reassure the noble Baroness that we have established a joint Home Office and DfT ministerial border group to identify and prepare for the high levels of demand at the UK border. Over the course of the half-term, the Border Force deployed extensive plans to ensure that it was able to meet demand, and the e-gates have been upgraded to make them more effective.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, last time we discussed this issue, I commented on the need for the department to get involved early. In fact, it seems that the department accepted my advice but did not get round to it until mid-June. Intervention in aviation is crucial because of the complex interaction. Can the Minister advise us, first, on how we will get to know about these 22 measures and perhaps write to me, listing them and putting a copy in the House? Can she also explain how a fast-moving industry that traditionally has to plan day by day can really make an impact with a weekly meeting?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Yes, I agree with the noble Lord that it is a very complex ecosystem, not just within our own borders but internationally. Issues outside our borders can have quite a significant knock-on impact. The 22 measures that I have already mentioned today will be published as a WMS today, but if there is not enough detail then I will happily write to him with the full detail on what they are. The noble Lord mentioned the Government not getting involved. When he looks at the 22 measures, he will see that there are things that have been in train for a very long time, so the Government have been working on this over a significant time. The Government do not intend to get involved in the day-to-day operations of the airports; these weekly meetings are very much about taking a medium-term view of emerging risks.

[Lord Watts (Lab)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware of the increasing use of fast track by airports, which demands a fee to get through the airport in a reasonable time? Does she not agree that the airports have a duty to do that for every passenger, not just for those who pay an extra fee?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I absolutely agree that every passenger should get a good service at an airport and be able to get through security within reasonable time. I know that the airports are beefing up their staffing. The Government have done an enormous amount in this area as well: we have ensured that UK security vetting now has no delays; we have also changed the regulations to ensure that training for these new security staff can start while background checks are ongoing.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, the chief executive of easyJet has said that one problem it is suffering is that:

“The pool of people is smaller, it’s just maths. We have had to turn down a huge number of EU nationals because of Brexit. Pre-pandemic we would have turned down 2-2.5% because of nationality issues. Now it’s 35-40%.”


How does the 22-step plan that the Government have produced deal with these kinds of staffing shortages?

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[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The 22 measures include a number of interventions that we can make to sort the staffing shortages. Obviously, I have mentioned the changes to the security regulations. We are working alongside the industry—ultimately this is its issue, which it must deal with—but we have been very content to support it in terms of working with the general aviation sector to encourage communication about careers in it. The Aviation Skills Recruitment Platform has already been launched and we are working with students with the Talentview Aviation platform; indeed, we have 21 aviation ambassadors. There are all sorts of things that the Government are doing, but I remind the House that this is an issue that the industry must solve.

Rail Dispute: Michael Ford QC

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Wednesday 29th June 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the legal opinion from Michael Ford QC on the legal powers of the Secretary of State for Transport in respect of the rail dispute.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, we have noted the advice from Michael Ford QC. Train operators are required to agree how they manage industrial relations risk, including risks from industrial action, through their contracts with the department. Before incurring costs such as pay increases or changes to terms and conditions, the Secretary of State needs to be satisfied that these are affordable and in the long-term interests of the taxpayer, and take steps to protect the public purse.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for that reply, as she clearly accepts the legal advice obtained by the Trades Union Congress on this point. However, it gives the lie to statements made by successive Ministers—including her noble friend in the answers he just gave. Where there is responsibility, the Government dodge it; where there is law, they tend to ignore it and mislead the public and Parliament. What is the concern of the Government in this dispute other than petty party-political manoeuvring? When will they take serious action? What is their strategy for resolving this in the interests of rail users and, ultimately, the country? So far, we have seen no sign of that, despite the clear legal obligations and responsibilities placed on the Transport Secretary.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

There were many questions there, to which I will try to respond. The real prize in all this, for both rail passengers and rail freight, is long-term transformation to a modern and efficient seven-day railway, where services align with demand and adapt to current patterns of travelling and rail freight, from the perspectives of both location and time. The Government absolutely want the employers to be able to reach an agreement with the RMT. We are clear that it is for the industry to conduct the day-to-day negotiations with the RMT in this dispute. Under the Labour Government of some time ago, there were strikes by both firefighters and postal workers; they took exactly the same approach and asked the employers to negotiate with the unions.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, can the Minister tell us who owns Network Rail?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The Government, and therefore the taxpayer.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)]

The noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, will now contribute remotely.

[Baroness Brinton (LD) [V]]

My Lords, over 30,000 passenger-facing rail staff have completed the disability training required by the Office of Rail and Road. As a wheelchair user, travelling by rail is noticeably safer as a result of the excellent assistance train staff provide. The Government want to allow the use of agency workers in place of striking station and train staff. If agency staff have not completed the regulator’s required safety assistance training, would that breach the public sector equality duty? Would disabled passengers be safe in such circumstances?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I can reassure the noble Baroness; there seems to be some misconception that the Government plan to recruit lots of agency staff who have no training whatever for the task they are being asked to perform. That will not be the case at all. We have very safe and increasingly accessible railways, and we will continue to do so. If we ask any staff to do anything beyond their normal role, they will of course receive the appropriate training.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for pre-empting some of my questions by agreeing with Michael Ford QC. In his opinion, he says:

“Train operators are not free to agree terms and conditions with their employees without the involvement of the SoS.”


However, being a bit apprehensive about lawyers—because all too often you just get another lawyer—I went to the essence of the powers, which is found in the national rail contracts. I looked at the one with South Western Railway. On page 38 of its 522 pages, in paragraph 5.2 of chapter 2.2—the section on industrial action—it states:

“The Operator and the Secretary of State shall use reasonable endeavours to agree how the relevant Industrial Action shall be handled, bearing in mind the Dispute Handling Policy, provided however that the Operator’s handling of such Industrial Action will be subject always to the Secretary of State’s direction”.


This is not a limp-handed agreement, but a very powerful one. Before I researched it, I did not know that the department essentially indemnifies the losses to train operating companies during industrial disputes. The way it enforces this agreement is by withdrawing such support. Does the noble Baroness agree that the Secretary of State can, and indeed must, involve himself in this dispute? Given that he has absolute discretion over the terms of the dispute, this is a dispute between the Secretary of State and the rail unions. Should he not embrace that responsibility and sort it out?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

That is an awful lot of questions about who meets who, and why. Let me explain exactly why the current negotiations are set out in the way that they are. The RMT asked that negotiations be conducted at a national level. The Rail Delivery Group has the mandate to conduct the negotiations. The talks are therefore at the Rail Industry Recovery Group level. The industry has bent over backwards to negotiate in a way that the RMT demands, and will continue to do so. The industry is offering daily talks and Ministers receive daily updates.

[Lord Bellingham (Con)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that, during the last Labour Government, there were disputes with the rail unions, and former Labour Secretaries of State did not negotiate directly and very much left negotiations to Railtrack, and then Network Rail?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I was not immediately aware of that, but it highlights what I have said also about the firefighters and the postal workers. It is normal for the employer to negotiate with the union. The Government should not be sitting at the table, and the RMT boss does not want us there.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, without signals, the trains cannot run, and it takes over a year to train a signaller. Does the Minister accept that it is therefore an empty threat, and one designed to raise the temperature of the situation, when the Government say they are going to legislate to allow agency workers to take over railway jobs? It will not allow the railways to run unless there are signallers available.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

As I have already said, there would be no question of the Government or the industry putting anybody who was not fully trained into a role at short notice. It is simply not going to happen.

On the question of signalling, noble Lords may have noticed that the Government have just announced at £1 billion investment in digital signalling for the east coast main line—I just wanted to highlight some positive news.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

The Minister said that the dispute is between the trade union and the employers, and it is nothing whatever to do with the Government. In answer to my noble friend Lord Foulkes, who asked who owns Railtrack, which is a party to the dispute, she said that it is the Government who own Railtrack. I just wonder how she sorts that one out.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I did not say what the noble Lord has just said I said. I said that the negotiations are between the employer and the union. I set out very clearly how and at what level those negotiations are taking place nationally. On the one hand, there are a set of negotiations with the Rail Delivery Group, which represents the train operating companies, and there are also negotiations going on with Network Rail, particularly around the reforms to transform—the important reforms that we need in order to have the modern and efficient railway that our country deserves.

[Baroness Foster of Oxton (Con)]

My Lords—

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[Baroness Foster of Oxton (Con)]

Thank you. My Lords, does my noble friend the Minister agree that these rail disputes are less about terms and conditions, and more about party politics?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The truth of the matter is that the negotiations that are happening, and have been offered daily, are about many different things. Sometimes things get narrowly conflated, or get very heated, but at the heart of all this is the fact that we must get a modern and efficient railway. The Government have that at the front of their mind and give the mandate to the employers—that is absolutely clear—and I hope that this will be resolved as soon as possible.

Industrial Action on the Railways

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Monday 20th June 2022 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall now repeat a Statement made by my right honourable friend the Transport Secretary in another place. The Statement is as follows:

“Mr Speaker, with permission, I would like to make a Statement on rail strikes. We are now less than eight hours away from the biggest railway strike since 1989—a strike orchestrated by some of the best-paid union barons, representing some of the better-paid workers in the country, which will cause misery and chaos to millions of commuters.

This weekend we have seen union leaders use all the tricks in the book to confuse, to obfuscate and to mislead the public. Not only do they wish to drag the railway back to the 1970s but they are employing the tactics of bygone unions: deflecting accountability for their strikes on to others; attempting to shift the blame for action that will cause massive disruption and damage to millions of people; and claiming that others are somehow preventing an agreement to their negotiation.

But I do not think the public will be hoodwinked: the families who will be unable to visit their relations; music fans hoping to go to Glastonbury; the students unable to get to their exams—their GCSEs and A-levels; businesses just beginning to recover from Covid; and people who will miss out on medical treatment because of these strikes. That is what they are supporting. They know that this week’s rail strike—created by the unions, organised by the unions—is the full responsibility of the unions, too.

Of course, we are doing our utmost to get the unions and the rail industry to agree a way forward and call off the strikes. This is because in discussions such as this, it is always the employer and unions who need to get together and negotiate. In this case, that is the train operating companies, Network Rail and union representatives. We are not the employer and we will not undermine the process. I hear the calls of the Labour leadership opposite saying that we should somehow get involved and perhaps invite the unions for beer and sandwiches to discuss the situation. Well, we all know that the Labour leader thinks that beer and a curry is a work meeting but we will be leaving this to the employers, who are the right people to negotiate with the unions. Indeed, the unions are in daily talks with the employers—or at least they were until they walked out an hour ago to go and hold a press conference saying that the strikes would be on.

We are doing everything can, despite these strikes, to minimise the disruption throughout the entire network. We are working with the Civil Contingencies Secretariat, the Government’s emergency planning team, to keep critical supply chains open wherever possible. Operators will keep as many passenger trains as possible running, although, of course, with much disruption to the timetable, that will be very difficult on strike days. It is estimated that around 20% of planned services will operate, focused on key workers, main population centres and critical freight routes. But there will be mass disruption, and we advise passengers to avoid travelling unless absolutely necessary, which, of course, for many it will be.

The National Rail Enquiries website will be kept up to date with the latest travel information to ensure that passengers can make informed decisions about their travel. Passengers are strongly advised to check before they travel and encouraged to look for alternative means of transportation if their journey is affected, including on the days between strikes.

We are looking at different options for the railways in order to maintain services amid disruption in both the medium and longer term. We can no longer tolerate a position where rail workers exercising their right to strike can do it without any regard for how the rights of others are affected. Nurses, teachers and other working people who rely upon the railway must be able to travel.

Minimum service legislation is just one part of that. Minimum service levels are a government manifesto commitment and will require train operators to run a base number of services, even in the event of future strike actions. It is a system which works well in other countries, including Belgium and France. So we will be bringing in legislation to protect the travelling public if agreement cannot be reached when major disruption, as with the strikes this week, is expected.

The rhetoric we have seen from union leaders and the Opposition Benches this weekend seems to be focused on widening the division rather than bridging the gap. The whole point of the railway reforms based on the Williams review, which engaged with unions very extensively, is to unite and modernise the industry. Just as we cannot reform the railway with obsolete technology, we cannot do it by clinging on to obsolete working practices. For example, leisure travel at weekends has huge growth potential at the moment. After Covid, people are coming back and travelling at weekends more than before. But on most of the railway, under an agreement that dates back to 1919, Sunday working is voluntary. So the industry cannot do what everyone else does—what other businesses and organisations do—and service its customers. Instead, it has to appeal for people to come and work. Sometimes that is simply unavailable, as happened with large football matches such as the Euro finals, when 170 trains were cancelled. So the industry needs to change.

Unions claim that this strike is about a pay freeze, but this is factually incorrect. We are not imposing a pay freeze. The whole point of these reforms is to build a sustainable, growing railway, where every rail worker receives a decent annual pay rise. Let me be clear: for modernisation and reform to work, we have to have unions that are prepared to modernise, otherwise there can be no deal. This strike is not about pay, but about outdated unions opposing progress—progress that will secure the railway’s future. These strikes are not only a bid to stop reforms; they are critical to the network’s future. If these reforms are not carried out, the strikes will threaten the very jobs of the people who are striking now, because they will not allow the railways to operate properly and attract back customers.

The railway is in a fight. It is in a fight for its life, not just against other forms of public and private transport but competing with Teams, Zoom and other forms of remote working. Today, many commuters who three years ago had no alternative but to travel by train have other options, including the option of not travelling at all. Rail has lost a fifth of its passengers and a fifth of its revenue.

Since the start of the pandemic, the Government have committed £16 billion of emergency taxpayer support—we all know the numbers; that is £600 for every single household in the country—so that not a single rail worker lost their job. We have invested £16 billion to keep trains running and ensure that no one at Network Rail or DFT-contracted train operating companies was furloughed. Now, as we recover and people start to travel again, the industry needs to grow its revenues. It needs to attract passengers back, and make the reforms that are necessary for it to compete. The very last thing that it should be doing now is alienating passengers and freight customers with a long and damaging strike. So my message to the workforce is straightforward: “Your union bosses have got you striking under false pretences, and rather than protecting your jobs, they are actually endangering them and the railways’ future.”

We have a platform for change. We want the unions to work with the industry and the Government to bring a much brighter future to our railways, and that means building an agile and flexible workforce, not one that strikes every time someone suggests an improvement to our railway. Strikes should be the last resort, not the first. They will stop customers choosing rail, they will put jobs at risk, they will cause misery across the country, they will hit businesses that are trying to recover from covid, and they will hurt railway workers themselves. So please, let us stop dividing the railway industry, and let us start working for a brighter future.”

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[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon. I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement, which opens with a list of those affected by the strikes. I should say that my plans have had to change for the latter part of this week. Potential revellers in Glastonbury have had their plans ruined and people going on holiday have had their plans upset. But it is workers, school and university students, and patients who will be most affected, and whose lives will be most impacted in the longer term by these strikes.

I would take the ministerial hand-wringing about this issue much more at face value if the Government had moved heaven and earth to solve this strike, but they have not. They have not lifted a finger and are making a virtue of this inactivity. Perhaps the Minister could update your Lordships’ House on when the Government last discussed this issue properly with union representatives. What does “doing our utmost” mean in terms of actually doing things? What is the Government’s utmost when it comes to stopping this strike?

This would be bad enough if the railway was being organised under the old franchise system, but as the Minister knows, the Government “took back control” of railways during Covid and essentially imposed a TfL-style service contract system. They are the real employer, and not to negotiate is a dereliction of duty. The Government hide behind the “we are not the employer” excuse, but with the formation of Great British Railways the Government are in charge. They have effectively nationalised the railways. The Government cannot expect this power of owning the railway without responsibility. Their responsibility is to negotiate.

The unions should not be inflicting this misery and should not be in a position to, but Grant Shapps is just as much to blame for failing to have acted to stop it from happening. We should look at the facts. As the Minister said, the railways have suffered throughout the pandemic and passenger numbers are yet to bounce back. This huge interruption will only hurt the recovery of passenger confidence in the railways. Here I agree with the Minister. I also agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, that the Government need to understand that and get everybody around the table and thrash this out. Until that happens, we will not get resolution. Can the Minister please explain why her Secretary of State for Transport is more willing to step into the media and try to save the Prime Minister’s neck than he is to sit around the table and save rail passengers from the problems we are seeing?

Meanwhile, we have seen sabre-rattling about agency workers from the Business Secretary of State, Kwasi Kwarteng. Can the Minister please tell your Lordships’ House when we might expect a statutory instrument to be laid here so we can find out what his plans are? On the face of it, it looks like a political gimmick which is actually deeply impractical. This is a tight labour market; it is a tighter labour market than we have ever known. Agency workers are in really high demand. They can pick and choose the jobs that they take. Agency staff are unlikely to choose a role that causes them to have to cross a picket line rather than a job that does not. Where are these people coming from?

Even if the Government manage to find workers, it will not fundamentally address the underlying issues causing the strike actions and it will not save many of the services. For example, train drivers are trained for weeks to learn a new route. We saw this complication during the Covid crisis. You cannot just swap one driver for another, even if they know how to drive the train. What this looks like is the Government seeking to pour petrol on an already incendiary situation. The tone of this Statement adds to my suspicion that this is what is happening. Inserting third-party agency workers into this scenario is likely to inflame tensions and elongate strike action.

For my part, I think the Government think this is putting pressure on Her Majesty’s loyal Opposition and are not intending to solve the dispute. That is wrong. The Statement laughably urges divisions to end, but the Government’s language is inherently very divisive. It is the people of Britain who will suffer: the cancer patient who misses an appointment, the student who fluffs an exam after having to take a much longer journey to school, and the zero-hours worker who misses a whole week’s wages because they cannot get to work. These are the lives the Government are using to fuel their narrow political aims. Does the Minister agree with me that this is beyond reprehensible?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am grateful to both noble Lords for their contributions on this Statement. I have listened carefully to what they had to say today, and nothing that they said convinced me that there was an alternative way of bringing this dispute to a resolution, because:

“I do not negotiate with a Tory Government.”


Who said that? Mick Lynch. He does not negotiate with a Tory Government. He said that on 23 May. When we are dealing with that sort of attitude—one might say—it is all very well to turn round and say, “Well, have a meeting”. Have a meeting with who, about what? The Government are not the employer here.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

I think that the noble Baroness is challenging me on that point. Has she actually invited the unions to a meeting with the Government at any point? I did ask that, and I would be grateful if she would respond to it.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Well, that is marvellous; I have only just started my response, so if the noble Baroness could just hold her horses, that would be brilliant. Let us get back to the questions that she asked and indeed to the Government’s Statement. At face value, it is indeed the case that the current Rail Minister and her predecessor have met the unions in the past to press the need for reforms, and to outline the reforms set out in the Williams-Shapps plan for rail about the establishment of Great British Railways, changes to terms and conditions, modernising railway and creating this fantastic thing that we all want. But this was not part of the negotiations, because the negotiations are between the employer and the unions, as they have always been. That does not mean that the Government do not take great interest in the negotiations—we want to see an increase in pay—but it has to be done fairly, between the passengers, the taxpayer and the workers.

There are working practices that need to change. I am sure that all noble Lords will have heard of some of them, and I suspect that some have thought, “Yeah, it does need to change”. The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, asked about job losses. Over the course of the Covid pandemic, any job losses that have happened to date have been voluntary. A very successful voluntary severance scheme was launched in October 2021. There were 5,000 applications for that scheme—I am sorry, would the noble Baroness like to intervene?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, we should let the Minister respond, as is the way that it should be on a Statement.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The noble Baroness was mumbling, and I was desperate to know what she had to say.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

Could the Minister answer the questions that I asked?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am trying to answer the questions that the noble Baroness asked. As I was about to go on to say, it is clear that the industry will do whatever it can to avoid job losses. There will be voluntary schemes, and we expect them to be popular. But of course each train operating company, and indeed Network Rail, has a vision for how we will put the reforms into practice, and there will be different ways that each organisation will do that, with the human resources available to it. We will have to see how that all pans out because, obviously, different organisations will require a different number of people to carry our different levels of service.

I turn to some of the other questions that the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, raised. She mentioned that there is no mandate. There is a mandate for both Network Rail and the train operating companies. However, even so—I will say this again and again and no doubt I will be at the Dispatch Box many times talking about it—this is not just about pay; this is about terms and conditions, and we have known about changes to those for a very long time. We need to think about how we get to a stage where we manage to operate a seven-day railway in circumstances where, at the moment, you simply cannot. Southeastern’s high-speed operation, which has been in place since 2009, is incredibly successful. It is a great service, and that is the level of customer offer that we really should be giving to our customers on a modern railway, particularly as leisure travel is so important.

The noble Baroness also mentioned safety. Safety is, of course, the Government’s top priority. We have one of the safest railways in Europe, and there is an enormous uptick in the amount of advanced technology used for safety on railways—such as drones to check rail lines, which is much more effective than doing that by eye, and all sorts of machines that check for internal cracks in the rails. So, yes, there is an increased use of technology, and sometimes that means that people’s roles will necessarily have to change. The noble Baroness said that this will deeply affect the workers, and I agree. I feel very sorry for that, because at the end of the day we need those workers, and we want them to create these railways of the future. We do not want them to go on strike; we do not want them to damage their own livelihoods, which is what striking will do.

The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, and the noble Lord, Lord Fox, said that the Government are apparently not lifting a finger. I can absolutely reassure them both that the Government have been working on this all through the weekend. Obviously, at the moment, this is the biggest priority for my department. It is taking up an enormous amount of time in the department—rightly so—because you cannot build a modern railway on poor foundations. That is what we run the risk of doing. We must make sure that we have reforms, particularly to working practices, such that we can create the modern railway that we all want. At the moment, we are not there.

The noble Lord, Lord Fox, asked about agency workers, and we are looking at all options for them, because we do not want future strikes to punish the travelling public. When I have more information, I will of course bring it back to your Lordships’ House. In the meantime, I believe I have answered all the questions.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I recognise that my noble friend is trying to be helpful here, and I appreciate it, but the Government are committed to working with the train operating companies to put in place as many services as we can to minimise disruption to both freight and passenger operations where possible. Shutting the railway for the entire week would be shooting ourselves in the foot. We absolutely need to provide those services for as many people as possible, because we know that so many people are reliant on the railways.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, I get the impression that this crisis has just occurred in the past week, but that is not the case. The trade unions have been talking about this for a long time; the Government have been talking about Great British Railways for a very long time. We do not really know the extent to which these two issues are combined and whether the noble Baroness’s wish for change and the examples she gave will be included in legislation, but it seems very odd that we are now waiting until the last day before anything significant is happening.

I do not buy this business that the Government are not a principal. Since Covid, for very good reasons, the Government have been micromanaging the railways, as the noble Lord, Lord Fox, said. They are not allowing the train operators or Network Rail to negotiate. I do not know whether they mind about that but if they do not, the Government should take it on themselves.

I ask the Minister: what next? We have three strikes this week and, if there is no solution, what happens next? She and the noble Lord, Lord Fox, mentioned agency workers, but the last time we had an issue with agency workers related to P&O Ferries. Ministers were quite critical of P&O, to the extent that the Secretary of State said that he would sack its chairman. Whether he actually had the power to sack the chairman is a different matter, but if this goes on and agency workers are brought in, how can the Secretary of State sack himself? That really would not work. I hope that next week or by the end of this week, whatever the reasons, the Government encourage everybody to sit around the table and start talking about change and how it can be implemented while keeping the services going at the same time. As the Minister said, in France—I have a lot of experience of what happened on the railways in France—there is a rule that the trade unions allow one train in four to keep going, whatever the strike, so that there is at least a minimum service.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, asked: what next? The most important thing, to my mind, is for the unions to come back to the table—to sit down with the train operating companies and Network Rail to reach a resolution.

[Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)]

My Lords, I the interesting part of the Statement was, as someone said, its tone, which I think was accurately reflected in the Minister’s delivery to the House. There is clearly no intention from this Government to achieve a settlement. They have convinced themselves that it is in their interest to wind up the issue, reflected in the ministerial Statement in the use of terms such as “union barons”. This strike was because of the frustration among the membership of the unions involved; a massive majority of the entire unionised workforce was in favour of taking action. This is not down to the leadership; it is down to the members and their dissatisfaction. When the Minister comes and reads us a Statement that is more like a Daily Mail op-ed on a bad day, it demonstrates the Government’s total lack of interest in achieving any settlement.

[Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)]

Does the Minister understand that part of the reason for this discontent is the Government’s intention to wind back on the pension schemes that cover the railway staff? The Government make policies to make people’s pensions worse; that is part of the problem. Does she understand that?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

A review by the independent regulator for pensions recognised the pension scheme is underfunded. There clearly has to be some sort of remedy to address that. In most train-operating companies, workers can retire at 62—several years earlier than most people are able to retire—and, for those who worked for Network Rail after 2012, at 65. There is lots of work to do on pensions, but the noble Lord spoke about the tone and it is quite interesting to see how this has developed. I do not know if the noble Lord was able to watch Mr Lynch on the television this afternoon and take note of his tone.

[The Lord Bishop of Blackburn]

My Lords, I want to try to take some of the vitriol out of the conversation, just for a moment, to ask the Minister a question. Considering the number of conversations that have been going on behind the scenes, which have not produced a result and have, therefore, not prevented the strike, has any thought been given to working on a really long-term plan—not just for the rail industry but for a number of other industries that are talking about some kind of industrial action? This would allow there to be some hope and clarity in the longer term rather than immediately just trying to resolve this issue at this moment. The longer-term plan could be a real help, if that could be talked about.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I completely agree with the right reverend Prelate and noble Lords will have the opportunity to quiz the Government on the longer-term plan as we bring the legislation forward to put it into place. The right reverend Prelate may have seen the Williams-Shapps plan for rail: it sets out exactly what we want to do with the railways. We are hugely ambitious for our railways; we are investing in our railways; we are reopening abandoned routes all over the country; we are electrifying lines all over the country; we are opening high-tech networks such as the Elizabeth line; we have HS2 and Northern Powerhouse Rail; and we are creating thousands of jobs, particularly, for example, in train manufacturing. But, as I said, you have to build a modern railway on firm foundations, and we have to get to the stage where there are firm foundations on which to build that modern railway.

[Viscount Stansgate (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement, which I have to admit she did with relish, but when I listen to the tone and content, I find it hard to escape the conclusion that the Government are content, if not enthusiastic, for this industrial action to go ahead because they think it will bring them political advantage. I have only a few moments to ask a question, so I ask the Minister to explain to the House: what is the role of an engaged, ambitious Secretary of State in a dispute such as this? What more, in her view, could the Government do to bring about the solution to this dispute that we all hope to see?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The role of the Secretary of State is, of course, to support the sector in reaching an agreement.

[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, it was misjudged of Her Majesty’s Government not to engage more with the union on this issue. To treat the RMT as a pariah, even if the RMT tweets that the Government are a pariah, does not show respect to the members of the RMT. I hope that, after these three days, the Government will start to negotiate directly and ask the union to come in, even if they are not totally running the railways. I share one bit of good news: Northern Ireland railways are not on strike. Does the Minister agree that this might have something to do with the fact that Northern Ireland railways have always been, and probably always will be, in public ownership?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

Obviously, in the discussions around this dispute, it is important to separate out the workers and the leadership. No disrespect whatever is intended to the members of the union. We believe that those members who are choosing to strike may not be doing the best for their industry as a whole or for their long-term future. We are trying to get that across to them. I say again that it is important for the union to come back to the table and meet to find a resolution.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, in responding to the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Brixton, who asked about the rhetoric in the Statement, the Minister reflected on the rhetoric of trade union leaders as she saw it. Indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Fox, also asked about this. The Statement speaks slightingly of the “rhetoric” of the union leaders. In my dictionary, rhetoric is defined as

“the exploitation of figures of speech and other compositional techniques.”

Does the Minister think that the rhetoric of the Statement is chosen to pour oil on troubled waters, or add fuel to the flames?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

The structure of the Statement is very much to set out the Government’s position and, to be a little bit Cuprinol about it: it does what it says on the tin. It sets out exactly how the Government feel about this, how we see the necessity for reforms and how we would very much like the union to come back to the table. It tries to dispel some of the myths out there around the role of government and sets out how we can reach a resolution.

[Viscount Waverley (CB)]

My Lords, I declare my interest as co-chair of the newly formed UK freight and logistics parliamentary group. Might I turn the Minister’s mind to freight issues specifically? In her Written Statement on the Future of Freight White Paper, released just on Wednesday, she claimed:

“As a proud free-trading nation, moving goods domestically and abroad has always been a backbone of the United Kingdom’s economy.”


Arising from that, I have questions in two areas. First, what is being done to ensure that essential services are not too adversely affected by this whole circumstance? Might she concede that the railway industry is holding the country to account? For example, 40% of the fruit and vegetables consumed in the UK transit through the Lincolnshire South Holland region; in other words, 40% of the fruit and vegetables consumed in this country travel through an area that will be adversely impact by this process.

Secondly, to quote again from her Written Statement, will the Minister deliver on her intention to

“remove the barriers which prevent the seamless flow of freight”?

What is she going to do about this?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am very grateful that the noble Viscount is taking such a key interest in freight and I look forward to working with his APPG as it takes shape and moves forward. Freight is an incredibly important area that historically has sometimes been slightly forgotten about. We are hugely ambitious for freight on our railways. We have been working closely with the freight operating companies and Network Rail to see what we can do to get as many freight trains as possible moving over this period of disruption. We also had several meetings, in the weeks prior to any potential industrial action, about what is currently carried by rail freight that we would need to make sure continues to be so, so we feel content that we have a good handle on that.

On longer-term ambitions for freight on rail, we are hugely ambitious for it, as set out in the Williams-Shapps plan for rail but also in the Future of Freight strategy. I will have to beg the noble Lord’s patience because, when we come to debate Great British Railways in the transport Bill, I hope we will have many positive discussions about what GBR can do for freight.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, I wish to declare an interest: I am a member of the All-Party Parliamentary Group for GWR, whose services I normally use almost every day but clearly will not be using tomorrow.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, my interests are slightly different: I try to travel on the trains most weeks.

We have a few minutes left. The Minister will have heard from across the House the disappointment in both the tone of the Statement and the fact that the Government have not been more proactive on behalf of the public in trying to resolve this issue. She said at the end of her comments that she had answered all the questions. Actually, she had not: I raised the issue of the letter from the Prime Minister’s chief of staff to the Chancellor, which appears to be saying that they should remove the curbs on bankers’ bonuses. I asked her if she felt that such action would be detrimental to those involved in this dispute because it seems rather hypocritical to urge wage restraint on one group of workers while allowing large bonuses for another. If she could comment on that, I would be grateful.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am grateful for the reminder that I had not commented on that. The reason is that I have not seen the letter so I do not know what is in it and am not able to comment.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, we have had one question about the Government’s structural vision for the future of rail freight. Let us turn to the content of the Statement about the structural vision for passengers. The Statement refers to commuters three years ago having no alternative to taking the train but today having the option of not travelling at all. That rather suggests that trains are competing with Zoom, Teams and so on. It talks about attracting passengers back. There are many advantages to home working in productivity, family life and health and well-being. Should the Government, instead of talking about attracting passengers back, not be talking about the modal shift of attracting drivers out of their cars and on to the rails?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, that question goes a little further than my brief today, but the Government are very clear that we want a cleaner and greener transport system. Yes, we want to attract passengers back to the railways. At the moment, as I think I said in the Statement, numbers are down by one-fifth, but the interesting thing about the number of passengers travelling at the moment is that the shift has changed quite significantly. Far more people are travelling for leisure purposes; it is wonderful that they are choosing to go by train if they are travelling in the UK for leisure reasons. We have to provide the best possible modern railway that we can, which provides value for money for the taxpayer and for the travelling public, and that is what we intend to do.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

As we are all having a second bite at the cherry, if my noble friend believes that the strike is politically motivated—some of the comments from union leaders have been very political, such as “Get the Tories out”, and that is one of the nicer ones—does she expect these strikes to be repeated every other day, perhaps every month, on Tuesdays, Thursdays and Saturdays? If it is politically motivated, will she look again at the idea of taking on the political motivation of the union and closing it down?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I think the reality is that nobody wants this strike to continue. We will do whatever we can to support the train operating companies and Network Rail to reach a resolution. There has been some pretty sharp rhetoric, and one does not want to see widespread discontent, because that would be harmful to our economy and ultimately damaging to the workers themselves.

Hovercraft (Application of Enactments) and Merchant Shipping (Prevention of Pollution) (Law of the Sea Convention) Amendment Order 2022

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Monday 20th June 2022 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

That the draft Order laid before the House on 12 May be approved.

Considered in Grand Committee on 15 June.

Motion agreed.

Goods Vehicles (Licensing of Operators) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2022

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Monday 20th June 2022 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 11 May be approved.

Considered in Grand Committee on 15 June.

Motion agreed.

Hovercraft (Application of Enactments) and Merchant Shipping (Prevention of Pollution) (Law of the Sea Convention) Amendment Order 2022

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Wednesday 15th June 2022 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Hovercraft (Application of Enactments) and Merchant Shipping (Prevention of Pollution) (Law of the Sea Convention) Amendment Order 2022.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, this order amends two distinct instruments to give the Government powers in two areas: first, to apply pollution prevention requirements in the International Convention on Standards of Training, Certification and Watchkeeping for Seafarers, which I will refer to as the STCW convention, to hovercraft; and, secondly, to provide strengthened enforcement powers for breaches of requirements by all ships, including hovercraft, relating to the prevention of pollution. These powers must be contained in an Order in Council because the Merchant Shipping Act 1995 and the Hovercraft Act 1968 require it.

This order has no impact in itself on the only commercial hovercraft route in the UK—Southsea to Isle of Wight—in respect of which there is one operator and two hovercraft, operating in inland waters. In addition, there is no impact because this order simply creates powers to make secondary legislation. These powers are needed as a result of the repeal of Section 2(2) of the European Communities Act 1972, following the UK’s exit from the European Union, which provided the powers for the pollution prevention requirements in the regulations that currently implement the STCW convention. The repeal of Section 2(2) means that such provision relating to hovercraft cannot be made, or existing provision remade.

The STCW convention sets the standards required for seafarers to obtain the internationally recognised certificates required for seafarers to work on vessels that operate internationally. The convention has been subject to a number of recent amendments affecting seafarer training; these amendments are intended to be implemented in regulations, replacing existing regulations that implemented the STCW convention. Criminal sanctions relating to breaches apply to shipowners, operators and masters who fail to ensure that their seafarers are qualified, certified and discharge their obligations in accordance with the convention requirements, including the latest amendments to the STCW convention. Although these amendments do not affect hovercraft, other provisions of the STCW convention, such as manning, watchkeeping and the requirements to ensure that seafarers are trained and certified in accordance with the convention, will continue to be applied to hovercraft and will be contained in the new replacement regulations.

In the absence of Section 2(2), the current powers to provide for criminal sanctions for a breach of STCW training and manning requirements relating to the prevention of pollution do not include custodial penalties. This contrasts with the criminal sanctions available for breaches of safety requirements, which include custodial sentences of up to two years. It is therefore necessary to have the same provision available for contravention of the pollution prevention requirements in the new regulations implementing the STCW convention, as the training and manning requirements in the convention relate to both safety and prevention of pollution. Without the powers created by this order, the recent amendments to the STCW convention cannot be adequately enforced in UK law, and existing provision for custodial penalties and hovercraft cannot be remade. This order provides those powers.

In even more detail, this order will ensure that the pollution prevention obligations in the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, known most commonly as UNCLOS, can be applied in full to hovercraft in the same way that they apply to ships. It also applies other up-to-date pollution prevention-enabling powers in the Merchant Shipping Act 1995 to hovercraft. This means that UK regulations governing hovercraft can include provision for pollution prevention that derives from UNCLOS. This order also enables manning requirements in Section 47 of the Merchant Shipping Act 1995, which apply to ships, to be applied to hovercraft. Finally, this order makes discrete amendments to the order enabling the implementation of the pollution prevention obligations in UNCLOS. The UNCLOS order needs to be updated so that regulations made under it can prescribe custodial sentences in respect of offences for breaches of requirements in those regulations.

I have highlighted the importance of this draft Order in Council so that, in the absence of Section 2(2) of the ECA, we can, first, continue to apply pollution prevention provision in the STCW convention to hovercraft and, secondly, impose custodial penalties in relation to all ships in so far as they relate to prevention of pollution. I look forward to contributions from noble Lords.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, I welcome this order to support the Government in meeting pollution prevention requirements and ultimately making our waters safer in compliance with international standards. Hovercraft are a technical wonder but can be particularly harmful to the natural environment. Although the usage of these vehicles in the United Kingdom is not particularly widespread—indeed, it is not spread at all—Ministers are right to consider how we can eliminate their negative effects.

Although the UK is currently no longer a world leader in sea transport, by decarbonising maritime we can certainly aspire to become one yet again. I hope this instrument can form a small contribution towards that goal.

However, it is disappointing that the development of this order has not been used as an opportunity to properly engage with the limited hovercraft industry that exists today in the UK. While I appreciate the reasons given by the department for not formally consulting on this legislation, I hope the Minister can at least clarify that discussions took place with those who operate in the sector. I also hope she is able to confirm the Government’s wider strategy for improving the cleanliness of the seas through better regulation of the maritime environment.

The noble Lord, Lord Mountevans, raised a point about the criminalisation of seafarers, and I am sure we all share with him that this should not be unreasonable. But we are in an environment—I think Grenfell has brought this environment to our attention—in which the assurance that regulations are fit for purpose, which is the responsibility of government and its agencies, and the execution of those requirements must have a clear responsibility chain. I have no idea about the detail of these orders, but it has to be a good thing for seafarers to be required to be responsible for their craft and confident, as far as reasonably practical, that the state of their craft and its operation are properly regulated.

I am all in favour of this sort of regulation. The important thing is that it must be good regulation that is easy to understand and fairly implemented. There is no case for poor regulation. There is much that good regulation does, and in circumstances where it breaks down it sometimes has a catastrophic consequence.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I thank all noble Lords for their consideration of this order. It was a helpful discussion, and I will address some of the points raised as I am able. I may well write a letter, but I hope not to on this occasion because I think I have some answers, which makes a change.

I turn first to the noble Lord, Lord Mountevans, and the creeping criminalisation of seafarers. It is right that seafarers are held to account, and we should not expect anything other than that. However, it is also the case that we need to make sure that the right seafarers are held to account, and that it is not those at the bottom of the tree who bear the brunt and end up receiving the penalties. It should be those with the responsibility for ensuring that vessels meet the requirements, wherever they come from. It is not our intention to criminalise unnecessarily, but we want to make sure that the appropriate penalties are available where breaches occur and, in this case, that breaches of both safety and pollution prevention incur criminal penalties.

The noble Lord mentioned differences between Southampton and Aberdeen, but I am not sure that there would be. The order enables the Secretary of State to make regulations to make provisions to impose fines and a custodial sentence of up to two years, and that would be the same under the Scottish system as under the England and Wales system. If I have got that wrong, I will write to him. It would not be right that vessels could just go off to Aberdeen and say, “Sorry, you can’t put me in jail up here because I am in Scotland”. I am sure nobody wants that. I will look into that in a little more detail.

The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, asked: why now? This is resulting from an international obligation, and we are very keen to make sure, particularly on maritime—as the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, pointed out—that we really are working in as close a lock-step as we possibly can. Noble Lords may say, “Why hovercraft? Aren’t they some outdated technology, et cetera?”. We may think that now, but that does not mean it will be the case in future. Who knows what may come along in future?

The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, also questioned why it is different. There is an entirely different legislative underpinning to hovercraft, as I have now learnt. They are viewed as very different vessels. Certain regulations apply just to them because they have their specific foibles. The point about what we are trying to do today is to make sure that there is as level a playing field as possible. It is all about bringing together as many vessels as appropriate under the same umbrella to create that level playing field, which I think noble Lords would all agree is fair.

Motor Vehicles (International Circulation) (Amendment) Order 2022

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Wednesday 15th June 2022 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

That the draft Order laid before the House on 11 May be approved.

Relevant document: 2nd Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee. Considered in Grand Committee on 13 June.

Motion agreed.

Goods Vehicles (Licensing of Operators) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2022

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Wednesday 15th June 2022 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Goods Vehicles (Licensing of Operators) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2022.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, on 9 March 2022, your Lordships’ House debated the Goods Vehicles (Licensing of Operators) (Amendment) Regulations 2022, which govern the goods vehicle operator licensing regimes in both Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The regulations came into effect on 17 March. During the debate on 9 March, I explained that an error in transcribing our policy intent into legislation would mean that a second debate might be necessary on an instrument to make the necessary correction. This is that debate.

First, I would of course like to apologise to noble Lords for taking up valuable parliamentary time with this correction to a previously laid and debated instrument. The reason for the correcting instrument is that the original instrument went beyond the policy intentions. The intent was that the regulations should apply only to the operation of goods vehicles. However, one provision unintentionally also applied to the operation of passenger vehicles; in doing so, it disrupted the Public Passenger Vehicles Act 1981, which has made the regulation of passenger vehicles slightly more complicated. While the traffic commissioners have been able to continue their important work, this added complication is not tenable in the long term. The Committee will know how disappointed I am that an error has occurred, and I assure all noble Lords that the causes are being addressed within the department, as a wider review into SI processes is now under way.

To touch in a bit more detail on the real-world consequences of what has happened, the error in question was in Regulation 7 of the original instrument. In being drafted as it was, Regulation 7 incorrectly applied certain provisions to road passenger transport operations. The effect of the error, applying these provisions to all transport managers of certain road goods vehicle operations and road passenger transport operations, was not the original policy intention.

Essentially, the effect of the gap was that the regulators, which in Great Britain are the traffic commissioners, have used other options. They are using case law rather than legislation to minimise the gap, but of course we think that legislation should be put in place. We had originally hoped to lay this as a negative instrument. Indeed, we did so, but it was upgraded by the sifting committee, which is why noble Lords are having the debate today.

I turn to the practical effect of whom this impacts. It relates to those transport managers within the public service vehicles jurisdiction, either those already on licences who are subject to regulatory intervention—because they have not done something correctly—or those who seek to be nominated as transport managers. Looking back at the numbers in previous years, for example, in 2019-20, around 19 transport managers would have been affected by such actions, so it is not a great number. The traffic commissioners have been able to cope and have taken particular care in communicating their decisions during this quite short gap period of just over three months. Their hard work is very much appreciated, so I commend these regulations to the Committee.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister. I had a sense of déjà vu when I saw this instrument on the list for today. To be honest, it is tedious enough that we have to go through the vast list of SIs as part of the replication of EU regulatory structure without having to deal with errors, although it is not surprising that there are errors. One can hardly process the amount of legislation that we have been dealing with for the last couple of years without the occasional error creeping in. I was horrified today to read that Jacob Rees-Mogg has a plan for us to go through all 2,000-plus pieces of EU legislation within the next two years to re-examine them.

May I cut to the core of the issue? The Minister has explained that road transport operators were mistakenly included in the original SI alongside goods operators. One of my questions was going to be about the impact on the traffic commissioners’ powers, but the Minister has explained that. She has also explained clearly the number of cases involved.

My other question is, to go back to the original SI, why are passenger vehicle operators excluded? Why do they not need transport managers in the way that goods vehicles and their fleets need them? Is there separate legislation that covers passenger transport operators or is it that, for some reason, they are not regarded as in need of managers in the same way? Other than that, I am delighted to see that this error has now been corrected and it should, I hope, be fully operational and effective.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, I welcome the introduction of this SI to amend the errors in the previous regulations approved by this House in March. As the logistics sector experiences an unnecessarily difficult time, it is disappointing that even the initial piece of secondary legislation has problems. There is an important point here in that the Government previously claimed errors in the initial drafting would be rectified through the negative procedure, which clearly has not been the case.

Three months later, the House is finally to approve a technical instrument to right the wrongs of the previous legislation. I hope this will bring this specific matter to a close, though unfortunately it will not solve the chaos that is still plaguing British business. Weeks away from the summer holidays, the Government must bring forward a plan to fix the crisis and bring much-needed certainty.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am grateful to both noble Lords who took part in this short debate and will answer the issues they raised. The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, asked about passenger vehicle operatives needing transport managers. They do need transport managers and always have done. If the noble Baroness recalls, the issue we were discussing here was the extension of the requirement to have transport managers to much smaller vehicles. It was basically down to vans between 2.5 tonnes and 3.5 tonnes, I think. It was only because it was a requirement of the TCA that we matched what the EU was doing in that area, but the passenger service vehicles require transport managers now and always have done, so there is no change for them.

On the point about procedure raised by the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, I sincerely wish this had been done by the negative procedure; I feel that we could have got away with it but the sifting committee did not agree, which is why we are before the Committee today. As he knows—we had a debate around it the other day—the Government are very focused on what might happen in the summer in terms of challenges to road traffic in Kent. We are working closely with the Kent Resilience Forum and will continue to do so.

Motion agreed.

Motor Vehicles (International Circulation) (Amendment) Order 2022

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Monday 13th June 2022 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Motor Vehicles (International Circulation) (Amendment) Order 2022.

Relevant document: 2nd Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, these regulations will provide an exemption from paying vehicle excise duty to a specific group of specialist events hauliers in Great Britain. Specialist events hauliers are a small but important subsector of hauliers that transport equipment for touring cultural events. This includes concert tours, art exhibitions and sporting events. They typically undertake a significant number of internal movements, or tour stops, in the UK and the EU. Prior to the end of the EU transition period, UK hauliers operating in the EU were able to undertake unrestricted cross-trade movements—that is, the movement of goods between two other countries—and up to three cabotage movements: the movement of goods within a single country.

Under the EU-UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement, UK hauliers are now restricted to one cabotage and one cross-trade or two cross-trade movements within the EU. As such, specialist event hauliers’ business models have been significantly affected. That is why the Government are taking action to support this part of the haulage sector in adapting to the changes via a dual registration measure. Specialist events hauliers which are able to establish an international base in the EU or beyond while maintaining their UK base will be able temporarily to transfer their EU-registered vehicles to their GB operator licence while they operate in GB without the need for paying UK vehicle excise duty.

Dual registration will allow operators that wish to operate in the EU to function as an EU operator, benefiting from single market access rights, and to operate in the UK as GB operators, benefiting from their status as a domestic GB operator, all of this without the need to swap their specialist vehicles in the middle of a tour. Overseas haulage companies that set up a base in GB can also benefit from this approach. The main function of this SI is to provide an exemption from VED for hauliers which wish to utilise the dual registration arrangements. Without this VED exemption, this approach would not be viable.

This change will provide an efficient process when operators switch the vehicles from their EU operator’s licence to their GB operator’s licence. To utilise the dual registration a number of criteria will need to be met, which are set out fully in the draft statutory instrument. The haulier must be operating under a hire or reward model; the haulier must also establish and maintain an operating base in Great Britain as well as another base abroad, as I mentioned; the vehicle being used must be specifically designed or substantially modified in order to carry the goods needed for cultural tours; the specific goods that the haulier may carry are property, equipment or animals being transported to specific venues or events; and the goods being carried from place to place during a tour should remain unaltered. In line with existing rules on the temporary import of vehicles, the vehicle may be registered in Great Britain for up to a maximum of six months in any given 12-month period.

Unfortunately, there are unavoidable limitations on what is possible here. This is a complex issue for which there are no simple solutions that will meet the needs of all parts of a fairly diverse sector. The proposed dual registration measure will go some way to meet the challenges that the sector is facing, but we acknowledge that some specialist event hauliers will be unable to utilise these proposals for a number of reasons. For example, smaller specialist haulage firms or own-account operators may not have the resources needed to set up overseas. Also, an own-account operator’s business model would need to change to hire or reward, and in certain circumstances that is not going to be viable.

However, this instrument is of vital importance to a large number of companies operating as specialist events hauliers, and therefore I beg to move.

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[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, I was expecting a very dry debate on this relatively straightforward SI, but one of the joys of this place is that you are allowed to discover fellow Members meeting by meeting. The idea of the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, leading a life previously as a groupie—though I hope not quite at that level—adds a little excitement to this debate, which it perhaps needs.

I welcome the introduction of this instrument to support British touring overseas. The House is aware that, since the UK left the European Union, companies which tour Europe have faced new obstacles in continuing their work and we all hope that this order will help them overcome this. The Government are right to bring forward these new provisions to allow certain hauliers to operate both in the UK and EU without having to pay vehicle excise duty—in effect, benefitting from the single market access rights.

I will not detain the Committee for long but there are three issues on which I would appreciate clarification. First, can the Minister explain why the measures are coming into force in August rather than earlier, especially given that the industry is particularly busy during the summer season? Secondly, the department has estimated that up to 50 specialist events hauliers, which in total have 1,000 vehicles, may decide to use this measure. How was this figure calculated and what proportion of specialist events hauliers does it represent? Finally, what steps will the Minister take to make the industry aware of these changes and to monitor their effectiveness? I hope the Minister can provide clarification on these points.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, that was relatively brief and moderately pain-free, but I will certainly answer as many questions as I can—and will write, as I can spot at least two I am feeling a little bit dubious about.

I think it is worth scooping up comments made by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, and the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, about what the timelines for this look like, how we ended up where we are now, why it was not done earlier, et cetera. Eighteen months ago, when we finally left the EU, there were all sorts of other things going on. There were not that many tours going on at the time, but we were aware that there was this potential issue with specialist events hauliers. As noble Lords may be aware, we explicitly requested bespoke arrangements for this sector when we were discussing the TCA, but the EU rejected those proposals so we have had to develop from there. It is the case that we went back and 100% checked with the EU whether it was absolutely sure that it could not think of some way for it to proceed. DfT officials raised that matter at the specialised committee on road transport in November 2021, noting that this sector had been disproportionately affected by the TCA and that this would have knock-on effects on artists affecting future cultural exchange for both sides.

We did not get far on that—I am not going to lie—and therefore realised that we would have to speak to the sector, as we would normally do in these circumstances, to understand exactly how we could help it. We did the consultation in February 2022. I cannot remember exactly how many people responded; I think it was something like 28. It was not a huge number, reflecting the relative size of the sector, which is not massive. After the consultation closed, we had to analyse the responses and shape the final policy position because, as I noted in my opening remarks, this does not help everybody and we wanted to make sure that we could help as quickly as possible. That is a very long-winded way of saying—the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, looked at his watch there—that the earliest we can get this into force is in August 2022.

However, I have positive news because we have done an interim measure. It is an exceptional administrative process which basically allows what we are proposing in the statutory instrument to happen now. That means that we have managed to safeguard the process over this summer. If differs from dual registration in that no legislative changes are required and it is instead implemented through an administrative arrangement with the Office of the Traffic Commissioner, but we recognise that that is quite temporary and we do not want to continue that arrangement without a firm legal footing. That is where we are with that.

The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, asked why six months, and I am afraid I do not have the answer. I think there is a broader issue about vehicles coming into the UK in general, in that they can come in for six months before something has to happen. I will write to the noble Baroness because I do not think that is a good enough answer.

The noble Baroness raised an important point about merchandise, which I thought was very interesting. However, the goal of what we are trying to do today is to focus on certain specialised vehicles. The reason we have this problem is that you load your cultural objects or your things relating to your event into your truck, which itself is specialised for transporting specialised equipment. That is why we are very clear that that equipment must not be amended, altered or sold, otherwise it becomes something entirely different. When it comes to merchandise, you do not need a specialist truck to transport CDs, brochures or whatever; they can be transported by any good courier company. I shall see whether I can find anything more about that. The whole point of this order is to focus on these trucks, which are simply not available to meet the needs of the artist or whoever across the EU, and you would not want to change them.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. My point is that if you are transporting an orchestra, you have specially adapted pantechnicons full of specialised equipment and instruments—you shove a few boxes of programmes and merchandise in the bottom as you go. Because they would have to send them separately, orchestras will print their programmes in Europe rather than printing them in the UK and taking them, and they will print their t-shirts in Europe rather than in the UK. We are losing business that way. I am making what I think is a simple point: something that is clearly ancillary to the main purpose of the truck should be allowed.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I think the noble Baroness summed it up very well in that last comment: if it is “clearly ancillary” to the main purpose of the truck, other arrangements could well be found. I will write if I can find out anything slightly more positive to ease her mind. Otherwise, I am fairly sure that orchestras will be shoving boxes of brochures under violins anyway, but let us not worry about that right now.

On the impact assessment question from the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, this SI does not amend or impose requirements on business practice, excluding a tax measure; this is really a tax measure rather than a change in regulation per se. A tax information and impact note has therefore been published by HMRC, as this proposal includes tax policy changes.

The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, also asked how many people would make use of this. The information we have comes from the industry; we think that there are up to 50 specialist events haulage firms that operate, but we of course do not know quite how many will then go on to make use of this. We do know that three possibly larger specialist haulier firms have already set up within the EU and that more have plans to do so once this regulation is in place. I am afraid that I have no more information than that because we simply do not collect data on that sector specifically.

We will publish the guidance associated with these regulations by 15 July on GOV.UK. My officials are in contact with the sector and also working alongside the DCMS, which is also very interested in this area. Between the DfT and DCMS, we will be engaging with the industry to make sure that key stakeholders are aware of the implementation date and their options. I will write to the noble Baroness on the number of foreign-registered overseas trucks that we expect in relation to the specialist events sector. I am afraid I can probably tell her now that we will not know that number. In terms of enforcement challenges, I see no difference from other foreign trucks we have in the UK and the enforcement challenges that the DVSA has for those. I beg to move.

Motion agreed.

Ryanair: Afrikaans Language Test

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Excerpts

Thursday 9th June 2022 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)]

My Lords, the language test requirement for passengers travelling with Ryanair is not a UK government requirement. The FCDO’s post in South Africa has confirmed this via its social media channels and has been in touch with the South Africa’s Department of International Relations and Cooperation. My department has approach Ryanair for comment. As yet, we have received no response.

[Baroness Chakrabarti (Lab)]

I am grateful to the Minister for that. Like other noble Lords, she will remember that next week will mark 46 years since attempts to impose the Afrikaans language on black South African children led to the Soweto uprising. Today, in post-apartheid South Africa, Afrikaans is one of 11 official languages, and it is less prevalent than Zulu and Xhosa, so using Afrikaans to verify citizenship is as ignorant as it is insulting and discriminatory. Will the Minister and her Government explore all potential regulatory options to persuade Ryanair to the cause of common sense and decency?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

When the noble Baroness raised this with me earlier this week, I thought that the entire thing was morally dubious and surely not appropriate, and my view has not changed. If a passenger is refused the right to fly despite having the correct documents and there being no other grounds for the refusal, they have the right to compensation—I encourage all such passengers to take it up—by being either reimbursed or rerouted to another destination. I completely and utterly take the noble Baroness’s point. As I said, we have not yet heard from Ryanair, and I will take this up with the Aviation Minister and the CAA to ensure that we do whatever we can to make it see sense, frankly, in this matter.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, the South African Government have recognised that this is not UK government policy, and I also recognise that. But, as the Minister said, Ryanair operates under licences, part of which states that the company has to be in good repute. It is not in good repute if it is, in effect, in breach of Article 14 of the European Convention on Human Rights for discrimination on the basis of language. It is also not in good repute if it gives this whole country a poor reputation among international travellers. Will the Minister not seek to persuade Ryanair or ask it for comment but rather demand a reply? If that is not forthcoming, will she ask the regulator to take action?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I wholly expect that we will get a reply from Ryanair, although our relationship with it has not always been as open as one would like. But the civil aviation consumers and markets group within the CAA is already looking at this and is in contact with Ryanair, so I will not make any further comment at this time, before those conversations have resolved themselves.

[Viscount Waverley (CB)]

My Lords, since the Minister is minded to engage with Ryanair, might she or one of her colleagues ask whether Gaelic will be a prerequisite for Irish passport holders to fly to Dublin?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am not sure I can commit to doing that, although I do recognise that Ryanair is based in Ireland. There are a number of people, organisations and Governments involved in this entire sorry debacle that could put pressure on Ryanair to make it see sense.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

My Lords, did the Minister have the opportunity this week to listen to or watch the debate on the Irish language regulations coming to this House? Irrespective of what view people took on that, one thing is very obvious: the great sensitivity of issues concerning language, particularly in Ireland at this moment. Is it therefore not ironic that this crass move should have been made by Ryanair? When she is exchanging comments with Ryanair, could she bring this to its attention?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I am not sure there is much more I can add to that. I entirely agree with the noble Lord.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, this is not the only example of Ryanair, and indeed other airlines, treating passengers in a cavalier manner over the last few days. What action are the Government now taking? Only the Government can work together with the airlines, airports, air traffic control and all the others involved to try to make sure that passengers are treated like human beings and not animals.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I warmly invite the noble Lord to a QSD that will take place in your Lordships’ House at about 3 o’clock today. I will be going into great detail about what the Government are doing in terms of our work with the airports and airlines. It is the case that it is not every single airline and airport, but there is much we can do with the entire sector regarding skills, recruitment and training, and we are working on that. We recognise that there are challenges for the sector, and the Government are going to step in to do what they can.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

Given the uniformity of view on this question, may I probe the Minister a little further? Can she tell us what powers the Government have to force Ryanair to take a more enlightened view?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

As I said, I am probably not going to go much further than I already have, because we have yet to hear back from Ryanair. A number of noble Lords have recognised that the CAA, as the UK’s regulator, may well be able to assist Ryanair in reaching the right decision.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, will the Minister take the opportunity provided by the British-Irish Council, which contains representatives from the British Government, the devolved Administrations, including the Northern Ireland Executive, and the Irish Government, to raise this issue immediately? If it is not possible to have a British-Irish Council at the moment because of the standing down of the institutions under the Good Friday agreement, it would be greatly appreciated if the Minister could nevertheless deal with this issue, given its importance and the need to emphasise equality in all matters in South Africa.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I will certainly take that idea away and see whether it is a route that will achieve the quickest resolution to this matter.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, following on from my noble friend Lord Foulkes’s question, could the Minister have a look at the processes at Prestwick Airport? I am told that passengers can go through without any delay whatsoever. Maybe they have got something to teach the rest of us.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

If we are talking about specific experiences at specific airports, I landed at Gatwick on Friday afternoon and 30 minutes later, I was standing outside waiting for my minicab. The point is that it is not happening at all airports at all times. There are certainly peaks when things are falling over a little, and that is the thing we really have to tackle. As I say, the Government are well aware of the issues and we are looking to see what we can do.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, I am not sure the Minister answered my noble friend Lord Tunnicliffe’s question very satisfactorily. He asked what the Government are able to do under those circumstances. Are we to understand that the Minister’s department made inquiries of Ryanair without being clear what its back-up position was, or indeed what powers it has in this respect?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

No. Clearly, we need a response from Ryanair because we cannot always believe what we read in the media, so that is our first step. Of course, the CAA has already issued a statement and as the UK’s regulator and the body that issues licences, it will be looking closely at this.