Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill (Programme) (No. 4)

Mark Harper Excerpts

Monday 1st November 2010 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark Harper)]

I beg to move,

That the following provisions shall apply to the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill, in place of paragraph 5 of the Order of 6 September 2010:

1. Proceedings on consideration shall be taken in the order shown in the first column of the following Table.

2. The proceedings shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at the times specified in the second column of the Table.

Oral Answers to Questions

Mark Harper Excerpts

Tuesday 26th October 2010 Commons Chamber

[Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con)]

2. What progress he has made on developing proposals for a wholly or mainly elected second Chamber.

[The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark Harper)]

My right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister announced to this House in June that he would chair a cross-party Committee that would set out the Government’s proposals which they will bring forward in a draft Bill early next year. We hope that a Joint Committee of both Houses will be able to scrutinise it in due course.

[Henry Smith]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that answer. Does he agree that only those elected to a revised second Chamber should be able to vote on the passage of legislation?

[Mr Harper]

I very much agree with my hon. Friend. The Government have made it very clear that we think those who make our laws should be elected. Thinking back to the previous question, it is worth saying that of the peers created since this Government came to office, more of them are Labour than represent the coalition parties.

[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

Will the Minister explain why he is proceeding with a cross-party, consensual approach to reforming the House of Lords, as is right and proper, yet rushing through other major changes to parliamentary democracy and the way in which we run this country without such usual cross-party consensus and support?

[Mr Harper]

I certainly do not agree with the right hon. Gentleman that we are rushing things through. We have had five days of debate on the Floor of the House and we have another two days on Report next week. Labour Members—albeit not the right hon. Gentleman—voted against our programme motion, which gave the House more time. I simply do not agree with him on this. We have set out our proposals and we hope that this House and the other place will agree with them in due course.

[Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD)]

The country has been waiting 100 years to elect the Lords. Once the Minister’s plans become law, how long will it take to achieve the Government’s intended proportion of elected Members in the upper Chamber?

[Mr Harper]

My hon. Friend puts his finger on an issue that the cross-party Committee is taking seriously and on which I am sure the Joint Committee will have a view: the length of, and procedure for, the transitional period. It is not an easy process. I look forward to the debate once we have published our draft Bill.

[Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab)]

We support the Minister’s plans to make constitutional and political reform the Government’s centrepiece, as long as it is for the right reasons and is effective. Will he confirm that, at the same time as rushing through legislation to remove 50 elected Members from this House—all the evidence suggests that most of them will be Labour MPs—this Government are rushing through plans to appoint 50 more unelected peers to the other place, most of whom will be Conservative and Liberal Democrat? Can the hon. Gentleman understand why most observers think that this is partisan and political manoeuvring?

[Mr Harper]

I welcome the right hon. Gentleman to his position, as this is the first time that we have crossed swords at the Dispatch Box at Deputy Prime Minister’s questions.

On House of Lords reform, as I said in my previous answer, the Government will create some new peers in due course—the Prime Minister has made that clear—in the same way that the previous Government did. Since the election, 29 Labour peers have been created, in the resignation honours list of the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown), but only 27 coalition peers. The Government have no plans to pack the upper House; the Government do not have a majority in the other place; we will take our legislation through there by arguing the merits of the case and hoping to persuade a majority.

[Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)]

Given that most people would react with horror at the prospect of doubling the number of elected MPs, why does my hon. Friend think so many on both sides of the House are fanatically in favour of turning the upper House into a carbon copy of this Chamber, which might either rubber-stamp or oppose its findings, while excluding the experts who do such a good job in revising our legislation?

[Mr Harper]

I know my hon. Friend’s views on this subject, but he is simply not right. One issue that the cross-party Committee is thinking about very carefully is exactly how to ensure that the reformed second Chamber is not a carbon copy of this place—that would clearly not be sensible. Although we think that Members should be elected, we will look at a range of ways of ensuring that the House of Lords can do its job properly as a revising Chamber, without duplicating the role of this House, which will remain the primary House of Parliament.

[Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab)]

3. If he will bring forward proposals to lower to 16 years the voting age in elections and referendums.

Electoral Commission (Additional UK MEP)

Mark Harper Excerpts

Tuesday 26th October 2010 Written Statements

[The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark Harper)]

On behalf of the Lord President of the Council, I requested the Electoral Commission last month to make a recommendation on which one of the 12 UK electoral regions as defined in the European Parliamentary Elections Act 2002 should be assigned the additional MEP seat allocated to the UK by virtue of the transitional protocol concerning the composition of the European Parliament, agreed by the member states of the EU on 23 June 2010.

Under the terms of the European Parliament (Representation) Act 2003, the Electoral Commission in making this recommendation was obliged to ensure that the ratio of electors to MEPs is as nearly as possible the same in each electoral region.

The Electoral Commission is publishing today its recommendation, which has now been laid before Parliament. The recommendation is that the extra seat should be allocated to the west midlands electoral region. I am grateful to the Electoral Commission for its work in producing this recommendation which, in its usual way, it has undertaken entirely independently and without regard to the outcome.

The Government will include the necessary provisions to implement the Electoral Commission’s recommendation in the forthcoming European Union Bill, as indicated in the Minister for Europe’s statement of 13 September 2010. In the event that any changes to the electoral registration would result in a different UK electoral region gaining the seat while the European Union Bill is being considered by Parliament, the Government are clear that the Electoral Commission would be asked to make a further recommendation on the basis of the most recent data.

The Bill will also provide that the seat will be filled by reference to the results of the west midlands region at the last European parliamentary elections held on 4 June 2009, as if the extra seat had been available in the west midlands electoral region in those elections. This method of filling the seat is in accordance with the terms of the transitional protocol and is in line with the practice of most of the other member states which gain additional MEPs under the protocol.

Subject to parliamentary approval, the additional UK MEP provided for by the transitional protocol will be elected once the relevant provisions in the European Union Bill have entered into force, and once all EU member states have ratified the transitional protocol. The protocol cannot enter into force, and the additional MEPs provided for by the protocol cannot take up their seats, until all member states have ratified the protocol.

This is an interim measure until the next European parliamentary elections take place in June 2014. At those elections all UK MEPs, including the MEP for this extra seat, will then be elected as usual.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Mark Harper Excerpts

Monday 25th October 2010 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark Harper)]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

It is a great pleasure to see you in the Chair, Mr Evans. The new clause is a straightforward and clear response intended to cure, for the alternative vote referendum, a possible ambiguity in the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000 framework on the regulation of referendum expenses. It clearly states that the costs of covering and reporting on the referendum in the media are not referendum expenses for the purposes of that Act. That means that those costs will fall outside the regulatory regime that the PPERA puts in place.

I want to be absolutely clear that the new clause does not change the position on the regulation of advertising in the media by campaigning individuals or organisations. Such media costs will continue to be subject to the usual spending restrictions in the 2000 Act. However, we believe it is important to ensure that media outlets are not caught by the spending restrictions in place for the referendum when publishing information about it, since they will play a vital role in building public awareness.

I take this opportunity to thank the hon. Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen) and the Select Committee on Political and Constitutional Reform for the scrutiny of the Bill that they carried out despite the time available. The Committee’s members tabled a similar amendment, and I am grateful for their focus on the issue. They identified the problem and the potential ambiguity, and argued that it needed to be dealt with. The Committee identified a potential problem with the framework for referendums, as set out in the PPERA. Where there is ambiguity in statute there may be arguments either way, but I accept that on an issue as important as this, the law should be clear. That is why the Government have tabled their own new clause, similar to that tabled by the Committee’s members and identical in its intention. However, I believe that there are sound technical reasons why our version is preferable.

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

I warmly welcome the fact that the Government have tabled the new clause. Broadly speaking, the Minister is absolutely right that it was never anybody’s intention that ordinary newspapers, magazines, television broadcasts and so on should be included in the referendum expenses regime. However, there are some complications because of some of the terms used in the new clause.

I note that the Minister said en passant that the Committee chaired by my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen) managed to come up with a report despite the time available, but of course the lack of availability of time was entirely down to the Minister, not down to anybody else. As the Minister noted, the Committee produced its own version of what a new clause might look like, and a lot of us have been lobbied by different parts of the media in favour of some version or other of an amendment such as this one. The Minister said that the Government’s version was slightly different, and I hope that he will be able to take us through why.

The new clause mentions, first:

“Expenses incurred in respect of the publication of any matter relating to the referendum, other than an advertisement, in…a newspaper or periodical”.

As I understand it, it is remarkably difficult to specify in law what is a newspaper or periodical. So far as I can see, there is no one clear definition of newspaper or periodical. I assume that the Government understand “newspaper or periodical” to be the same, not two separate concepts.

I can find two instances of a definition in statute. The first is the Newspaper Libel and Registration Act 1881, which states:

“The word ‘newspaper’ shall mean any paper containing public news, intelligence, or occurrences, or any remarks or observations therein printed for sale, and published in England or Ireland periodically, or in parts or numbers at intervals not exceeding twenty-six days between the publication of any two such papers, parts, or numbers.

Also any paper printed in order to be dispersed, and made public weekly or oftener,”—

“oftener” is slightly strange language—

“or at intervals not exceeding twenty-six days, containing only or principally advertisements.”

I presume that the Government are not relying on that definition, because it applies only to England and Ireland, which is in a Bill that tried to ensure that all newspapers and periodicals were registered. That registration process no longer exists—now anyone is free to publish a newspaper or a periodical.

The second instance is in section 7(5) of the Defamation Act 1952, which states that

“the expression ‘newspaper’ means any paper containing public news or observations thereon, or consisting wholly or mainly of advertisements, which is printed for sale and is published in the United Kingdom either periodically or in parts or numbers at intervals not exceeding thirty-six days.”

I am sure that keen-eared Members noted that between 1881 and 1952, there was a difference of 10 days in the frequency with which a printed item might be described as a newspaper or a periodical.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Mark Field]

I agree with what the Government are trying to do in new clause 19; they have taken on board some of the concerns expressed by the Select Committee. However, I want to ask the Minister a question about the increasingly important influence of the new media. Does he not feel—I appreciate it will not apply to this particular referendum—that much of our legislation, particularly that dealing with media comment, is now ripe for a much more radical overhaul? This could be the first referendum in which we see a significant amount of money being spent by online providers trying to put their message across—in both the English and the Welsh language, I suspect—on this issue. Much of the legislation already in place looks more towards 20th-century and perhaps even, in some cases, 19th-century media. Much of the new media will have a greater impact—not just through blogs, but through a whole range of forums coming under the auspices of existing magazines and periodicals—so I would like to know what indications the Government have had about the likely costs and whether they will count towards the amount of election expenditure.

It strikes me that we are now living in a much-changed world. Younger voters in particular are less likely to look at newspapers, periodicals or even the television as the most important mechanism for getting comment on political and other related matters. There is concern that a great deal of our legislation requires a much more radical overhaul than people appear to have in mind. Given the context of where we are today, however, the new clause provides a sensible way forward, taking into account many of the concerns expressed by the all-party group.

[Mr Harper]

I am grateful to the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) and to my hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mr Field) for raising a number of questions. Let me step back a little and explain why we tabled the new clause.

The problem arises from the definition of the word “material” in schedule 13 of the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000. The reason for the concern —some media organisations were worried—is that there was some ambiguity about the meaning. We think “material” means leaflets and other campaigning items, but we decided to fix any ambiguity.

The hon. Member for Rhondda asked me why we prefer our new clause to the amendment that the Committee had tabled. That amendment changed section 117 of the 2000 Act, with the effect that media costs were still categorised as referendum expenses within the regulatory regime. The amendment further specified that although these were referendum expenses, there was no need for individual bodies to be permitted participants if they wanted to spend more than that. That might not have been the Committee’s intention, but that is how we thought it would work. By comparison, our amendment simply says that those media costs are not referendum expenses at all, so they are not subject to the regulatory regime set down by the Act. We think that that provides a more direct and less confusing approach than the Committee set out in its amendment. Our new clause has the same spirit and purpose, but we prefer it, as I have explained.

The hon. Member for Rhondda asked a number of questions. As to the definition and use of language, our approach is to use the equivalent provisions in the PPRA that regulate third-party activity in elections, which have been in place since 2000. The commission responsible for regulating the provisions is happy with how it has been defined and will issue some guidance setting out the case in a little more detail. As I have learned, it is not terribly helpful—to use a ghastly phrase—to have undue specificity on the face of the Bill, whereby every single possible definition of a media outlet is set out. If that is done, but one possible meaning is not captured by the definitions, it makes it easy for a person to argue that they are not covered. Having a broader definition, about which the commission can issue guidance, is much more likely to hold up legally, particularly when it comes to some of the new media to which my hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster has rightly drawn our attention.

I shall come to my hon. Friend’s point about the future in a moment, but we have followed the approach in the PPRA and made it explicit that, in the case of this particular referendum, the regulations will be the same as those applying to third-party activity in elections. I think that, because the referendum and the elections are to take place on the same day, it is important for us to apply the same regime to both.

[Chris Bryant]

The Minister is talking complete sense, but I should like to be absolutely certain about what constitutes “a newspaper or periodical”, notwithstanding the issue of the convergence of a number of different media. There is a clear definition in the 2000 Act; perhaps he could give it to us.

[Mr Harper]

We have simply replicated the provision in the PPRA. I do not have it in front of me, but I should be happy to write to the hon. Gentleman about it later.

[Chris Bryant]

I understand that. My point is that I am not sure that there is a definition in law of “newspaper or periodical”, and I think that it is about time we had one. Definitions appeared in legislation in 1881 and 1952, but they conflict with each other.

[Mr Harper]

As I think I made clear in my reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster, it is much better to leave such definitions to case law, which can evolve over time. If they are defined too tightly in statute law, and then new media appear and changes take place in the way in which the media are produced, we shall find that we must continually update primary legislation in order to keep up with the changes. The hon. Gentleman put his finger on it when he referred to those older definitions and the fact that they have changed. It is better to set a wider definition. The commission can issue guidance, and if problems arise, the courts can interpret the definitions in the light of changes in the way in which media organisations work, and changes in technology. That way of proceeding will produce a tighter definition than trying to include too much detail in primary legislation, which will then become out of date.

The hon. Gentleman asked about our use of the words “broadcast” and “programme”. Again, we wanted the clause to be consistent with the third-party expenditure provisions in the PPRA, and also with the parent terms in the Broadcasting Act 1996, to which the hon. Gentleman referred. We did not want to open up gaps enabling people to argue that the words did not mean what they had in those original pieces of legislation.

My hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster referred to new media and changes in communication and technology, particularly in the context of the internet, e-mail and similar techniques. Because this will be the first United Kingdom-wide referendum to use the framework in the PPRA, one of the commitments that the Government have given to the Lords Constitution Committee, which has prepared a report on referendums, is that once it has taken place we will review the way in which it has operated, in order to establish whether we should make any legislative changes—changes in the framework, not just in specific referendums.

As my hon. Friend will know, the coalition Government are committed to introducing more referendums on both European and local matters. We now have a good opportunity to review the working of the system and to establish what practical changes are needed, given that there are likely to be more referendums in the future.

[Chris Bryant]

I thought that there would only be more referendums on European matters if treaties were proposed that would take powers away, but that is—I hope—a debate for another day.

I am still somewhat perplexed about the Minister’s understanding of “broadcast” and “programme”. I recognise that there are parallels in other legislation, but the concept of what constitutes the expense is material in this context. Is it the expense of making the referendum broadcast, which might include the cost of filming and so forth, or is it the expense of broadcasting the programme?

[Mr Harper]

I have not yet dealt with the hon. Gentleman’s point about party election broadcasts and referendum broadcasts.

On the issue of election broadcasts as against referendum broadcasts, it will be for the Electoral Commission to address the matter of referendum broadcasts with the yes and no campaigns once they have been designated. I listened very carefully to the remarks of the hon. Member for Rhondda about the differences between the rules for party election broadcasts and for referendum broadcasts and the provisions on them, and I thought—if I may say so as he was very courteous about me—that he explained them very clearly. On his specific point about the rules in respect of combination and what correspondence there was on that with Ministers in devolved Governments, as he will know, Ministers in devolved Governments are not responsible for the administration of elections. At present, that is the responsibility of the three territorial Secretaries of State and my officials and I have been discussing these matters with them. The hon. Gentleman will also know that the Calman proposals include recommendations to devolve the administration of elections in Scotland to the Scottish Government, but that has not yet taken place.

[Chris Bryant]

So there has been absolutely no consultation with the Administrations in Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland about the combining of polls, the statutory instruments that are to be laid later this week, or the referendum broadcasts, which in Wales are the responsibility of the Welsh Assembly not Ofcom?

[Mr Harper]

No, that is not what I said. The hon. Gentleman asked about what correspondence I had had on administering the elections, and I was just making the point that that is not the responsibility of Ministers in the devolved Administrations. There has, of course, been some contact, however. The hon. Gentleman will know that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales has had discussions with the First Minister about, for example, the combination and whether the Welsh Assembly Government wanted to move the date of their election. They made it very clear that they did not. The hon. Gentleman will also know that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland has also had such conversations. Furthermore, I forwarded copies of the letter I sent to the hon. Gentleman and other Members explaining how we were going to lay the new clause and new schedules on combination that we will debate today not only to Ministers in the devolved Administrations but to the leaders of each of the parties represented in all three devolved bodies—the Parliament and the two Assemblies—in order to keep them informed. That is a perfectly reasonable way to conduct our business, and it is properly respectful of those nations.

[Chris Bryant]

Except that it is not much of a consultation if the Secretary of State for Wales goes to the First Minister in Wales and says, “The referendum is going to be held on the date of your Assembly elections. Do you want to move your Assembly elections?” That is a pretty rum sort of consultation—more a case of holding a gun to the other side’s head than a proper consultation.

[Mr Harper]

I do not think that the hon. Gentleman is characterising that in a sensible fashion. This is a national referendum to be held in the United Kingdom, and it is a reserved matter for the UK Government to decide upon. When this whole issue arose and my right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister made a statement to the House, some Members asked what consultation had taken place and he made it clear that this is a matter for the UK Government and that it was right that this House heard the announcement first, before any conversations took place with the devolved Administrations. I do not think that is disrespectful; rather, it is properly respectful of the rights of this House.

[Mr MacNeil]

Does this not highlight that when devolution was established by the then Labour Government, they were trying too hard to hold on to power and they should instead have been a bit more relaxed and allowed the devolved Assemblies or Parliaments a bit more power over the governance of their own elections? That is not rocket science.

[Mr Harper]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that point. In my response to the hon. Member for Rhondda, I set out what the arrangements are now for the administration of elections. One of the things that has been discussed as part of the Calman proposals is the suggestion to devolve the administration of elections to the Scottish Government. I hope that we can take that forward, and I am sure that the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) would welcome it. I think that I have run through the issues raised by the hon. Member for Rhondda and by my hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster. He is no longer in his place and that demonstrates that his questions have been adequately answered.

[Chris Bryant]

It does not follow.

[Mr Harper]

I think that in this particular case it does follow. It might not follow if the hon. Gentleman left his place, but I think that my hon. Friend has left the Chamber because he was satisfied. Therefore, I ask hon. Members to support the new clause.

Question put and agreed to.

New clause 19 accordingly read a Second time, and added to the Bill.

New Clause 20

Combination of polls

‘(1) Where the date of the poll for one or more of the following is the same as the date of the poll for the referendum, the polls are to be taken together—

(a) a local authority election in England;

(b) a local referendum in England;

(c) a mayoral election in England.

(2) The polls for the referendum and the Welsh Assembly general election in 2011 are to be taken together.

(3) The polls for the referendum and the Scottish parliamentary general election in 2011 are to be taken together.

(4) Where the date of the poll for one or more of the following is the same as the date of the poll for the referendum, the polls are to be taken together—

(a) a Northern Ireland Assembly Election;

(b) a Northern Ireland local election.

(5) The following have effect—

Schedule [Combination of polls: England], in relation to the polls to be taken together in England under subsection (1);

Schedule [Combination of polls: Wales], in relation to the polls to be taken together in Wales under subsection (2);

Schedule [Combination of polls: Scotland], in relation to the polls to be taken together in Scotland under subsection (3);

Schedule [Combination of polls: Northern Ireland], in relation to the polls to be taken together in Northern Ireland under subsection (4).

(6) Polls taken together under this section must not be taken together with any other polls (despite provision in any enactment to the contrary).

(7) Section 16 of the Representation of the People Act 1985 (postponement of poll at parish elections etc) does not apply to any polls taken together under subsection (1).

(8) In this section—

“local authority election in England” means the election of a councillor of any of the following— a county council in England; a district council in England; a London borough council; a parish council;

(a) a county council in England;

(b) a district council in England;

(c) a London borough council;

(d) a parish council;

“local referendum in England” means a referendum held in England under Part 2 of the Local Government Act 2000;

“mayoral election in England” means an election in England for the return of an elected mayor as defined by section 39(1) of the Local Government Act 2000;

“Northern Ireland Assembly election” means an election to the Northern Ireland Assembly;

“Northern Ireland local election” means a local election as defined by section 130(1) of the Electoral Law Act (Northern Ireland) 1962;

“Scottish parliamentary general election” means an ordinary election under section 2 of the Scotland Act 1998;

“Welsh Assembly general election” means an ordinary election under section 3 of the Government of Wales Act 2006.’.—(Mr Harper.)

Brought up, and read the First time.

[Mr Harper]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

[The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Nigel Evans)]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment (a) to new clause 20, leave out subsection (1) and insert—

(1) Where the date of the poll for a local authority election in England is the same as the date of the poll for the referendum, the polls are to be taken together.’.

Amendment (b) to new clause 20, leave out subsection (4) and insert—

(4) Where the date of the poll for a Northern Ireland Assembly Election is the same as the date of the poll for the referendum, the polls are to be taken together.’.

Amendment (c) to new clause 20, in subsection (8), leave out from ‘“local referendum in England”’ to the second “Local Government Act 2000;”

Amendment (d) to new clause 20, in subsection (8), leave out from ‘“Northern Ireland local election”’ to “Electoral Law Act (Northern Ireland) 1962”.

Government new schedule 2—Combination of polls: England.

Amendment (a) to new schedule 2, in paragraph 11, in sub-paragraph (1) leave out ‘15th’ and insert ‘28th’.

Amendment (b) to new schedule 2, after paragraph 12, insert—

‘Absent voter application

12A An application under regulation 51(4)b of the Representation of the People (England and Wales) Regulations 2001, SI 2001/341, for an absent vote must state whether it is made for parliamentary elections, local government elections, referendums or all of them.’.

Amendment (c) to new schedule 2, leave out paragraph 15 and insert—

‘15 (1) The Chief Counting Officer shall select the colour of the ballot paper used for the referendum.

(2) The other ballot papers used for any relevant election shall be of a different colour from that selected by the Chief Counting Officer.’.

Amendment (d) to new schedule 2, in paragraph 17, leave out sub-paragraph (1) and insert—

‘(1) The official poll cards used for the referendum and for the relevant elections must be combined for all electors qualified to vote in all the polls.’.

Amendment (e) to new schedule 2, in paragraph 18, leave out sub-paragraph (1) and (2) and insert—

(1) Separate ballot boxes must be used for the referendum to those used for other relevant elections taking place on the same day.

(2) Each ballot box must be marked to show—

(a) the referendum or relevant election to which it relates, and

(b) the colour of ballot papers that should be placed in it.’.

Amendment (g) to new schedule 2, in paragraph 27, in sub-paragraph (1), leave out

‘If the counting officer thinks fit, the same copy of the register of electors may’

and insert

‘Separate registers of electors must’.

Amendment (h) to new schedule 2, in paragraph 27, leave out sub-paragraphs (2) to (4).

Amendment (i) to new schedule 2, in paragraph 40, at the end of sub-paragraph (3) insert

‘or

(c) the person is a Member of Parliament.’.

Amendment (j) to new schedule 2, after paragraph 43 insert—

‘Priority in counting of votes

43A Counting officers must give priority to the counting of ballots cast in—

(a) the respective elections to the Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales devolved administrations, and

(b) local council elections in each part of the United Kingdom.’.

Amendment (k) to new schedule 2, in paragraph 44, at the end of sub-paragraph (1), at end of sub-sub-paragraph (a) insert

‘containing ballot papers for the referendum vote.’.

Amendment (l) to new schedule 2, in paragraph 44, at the end of sub-paragraph (1), at end of sub-sub-paragraph (b) insert

‘containing ballot papers for the referendum vote.’.

Amendment (m) to new schedule 2, in paragraph 44, at the end of sub-paragraph (3), at end of sub-sub-paragraph (a) insert

‘containing ballot papers for the referendum vote.’.

Amendment (n) to new schedule 2, in paragraph 44, at the end of sub-paragraph (3), at end of sub-sub-paragraph (b) insert

‘containing ballot papers for the referendum vote.’.

Amendment (o) to new schedule 2, in Part 2, in the second column, in the entry relating to Regulation 71, leave out ‘eleventh’ and insert ‘fifteenth’.

Government new schedule 3—Combination of polls: Wales.

Amendment (a) to new schedule 3, in paragraph 15, leave out sub-paragraph (1) and insert—

"(1) The official poll cards used for the referendum and the Assembly elections must be combined for all electors qualified to vote in all the polls.’.

Amendment (b) to new schedule 3, in paragraph 17, leave out sub-paragraphs (1) and (2) and insert—

“(1) Separate ballot boxes must be used for the referendum to that used for the Assembly elections.

(2) Each ballot box must be marked to show—

(a) the referendum or Assembly election to which it relates, and

(b) the colour of ballot papers that should be placed in it.’.

Amendment (c) to new schedule 3, leave out paragraph 18 and insert—

“18 (1) The Chief Counting Officer shall select the colour of the ballot paper used for the referendum.

(2) The other ballot papers used for the Assembly elections shall be of a different colour from that selected by the Chief Counting Officer.’.

Amendment (e) to new schedule 3, in paragraph 45, at the end of sub-paragraph (3) insert

‘or

(c) the person is a Member of Parliament.’.

Amendment (f) to new schedule 3, in paragraph 47, in sub-paragraph (1)(d), leave out ‘separate’ and insert ‘keep separate throughout’.

Amendment (g) to new schedule 3, in paragraph 49, sub-paragraph (1), at the end of sub-sub-paragraph (a) insert

‘containing ballot papers for the referendum vote.’.

Amendment (h) to new schedule 3, in paragraph 49, at the end of sub-paragraph (1), at end of sub-sub-paragraph (b) insert

‘containing ballot papers for the referendum vote.’.

Amendment (i) to new schedule 3, in paragraph 49, at the end of sub-paragraph (3), at end of sub-sub-paragraph (a) insert

‘containing ballot papers for the referendum vote.’.

Amendment (j) to new schedule 3, in paragraph 49, at the end of sub-paragraph (3), at end of sub-sub-paragraph (b) insert

‘containing ballot papers for the referendum vote.’.

Government new schedule 4—Combination of polls: Scotland.

Amendment (a) to new schedule 4, paragraph 15, leave out sub-paragraph (1) and insert—

“(1) The official poll cards used for the referendum and for the Scottish parliamentary election must be combined for all electors qualified to vote in all the polls.’.

Amendment (b) to new schedule 4, paragraph 17, leave out sub-paragraphs (1) and (2) and insert—

“(1) Separate ballot boxes must be used for the referendum to that used for the Scottish parliamentary elections.

(2) Each ballot box must be marked to show—

(a) the referendum or parliamentary election to which it relates, and

(b) the colour of ballot papers that should be placed in it.’.

Amendment (c) to new schedule 4, leave out paragraph 18 and insert—

“18 (1) The Chief Counting Officer shall select the colour of the ballot paper used for the referendum.

(2) The ballot papers used for constituency or regional ballots shall be of a different colour from that selected by the Chief Counting Officer.’.

Amendment (e) to new schedule 4, in paragraph 42, at the end of sub-paragraph (3) insert

‘or

(c) the person is a Member of Parliament.’.

Amendment (f) to new schedule 4, in paragraph 46, in sub-paragraph (1)(d), leave out ‘separate’ and insert ‘keep separate throughout.’.

Amendment (g) to new schedule 4, in paragraph 48, at the end of sub-paragraph (1) (a)insert

‘containing ballot papers for the referendum vote.’.

Amendment (h) to new schedule 4, in paragraph 48, at the end of sub-paragraph (1), at end of sub-sub-paragraph (1)(b) insert

‘containing ballot papers for the referendum vote.’.

Amendment (i) to new schedule 4, in paragraph 48, at the end of sub-paragraph (3), at end of sub-sub-paragraph (a) insert

‘containing ballot papers for the referendum vote.’.

Amendment (j) to new schedule 4, in paragraph 48, at the end of sub-paragraph (3), at end of sub-sub-paragraph (b) insert

‘containing ballot papers for the referendum vote.’.

Government new schedule 5—Combination of polls: Northern Ireland.

Amendment (a) to new schedule 5, leave out paragraph 12 and insert—

“12 (1) The Chief Electoral Officer shall select the colour of the ballot paper used for the referendum.

(2) The ballot papers used for any relevant elections shall be of a different colour from that selected by the Chief Electoral Officer.’.

Amendment (b) to new schedule 5, in paragraph 14, leave out sub-paragraph (1) and insert—

“(1) The official poll cards used for the referendum and for the relevant elections must be combined for all electors qualified to vote in all the polls.’.

Amendment (c ) to new schedule 5, in paragraph 15, leave out sub-paragraphs (1) and (2) and insert—

“(1) Separate ballot boxes must be used for the referendum to that used for other relevant elections taking place on the same day.

(2) Each ballot box must be marked to show—

(a) the referendum or relevant election to which it relates, and

(b) the colour of ballot papers that should be placed in it.’.

Amendment (e) to new schedule 5, in paragraph 31, at the end of sub-paragraph (3) insert

‘or is a Member of Parliament.’.

Amendment (f) to new schedule 5, in paragraph 32, in sub-paragraph (1)(c), leave out ‘separate’ and insert ‘keep separate throughout.’.

Amendment (g) to new schedule 5, in paragraph 33, at the end of sub-paragraph (1)(a), insert

‘containing ballot papers for the referendum vote.’.

Amendment (h) to new schedule 5, in paragraph 33, at the end of sub-paragraph (1)(b) insert

‘containing ballot papers for the referendum vote.’.

Amendment (i) to new schedule 5, in paragraph 48, at the end of sub-paragraph (3)(a) insert

‘containing ballot papers for the referendum vote.’.

Amendment (j) to new schedule 5, in paragraph 48, sub-paragraph (3), at end of sub-sub-paragraph (b) insert

‘containing ballot papers for the referendum vote.’.

--- Later in debate ---

[The First Deputy Chairman]

It is all dependent on how long this particular set of new clauses and schedules are talked to. Clearly, if we get to them before the knife is reached at 11 o’clock, they will be taken with the amendments, but that changes if we go beyond 11 o’clock.

[Mr Harper]

Encouragingly, the hon. Member for Rhondda took rather less time speaking to the previous new clause than he took last week. That may be a step forward and perhaps we may indeed—

[Chris Bryant]

rose—

[Mr Harper]

Oh come on, that was a semi-serious comment and it does not require a response. [Interruption.] Oh go on then.

[Chris Bryant]

It will get a semi-serious response; I do not want the hon. Gentleman to worry about this. I merely wish to remind him that the Deputy Leader of the House, who is sitting next to him, has said:

“I am saying that every Member of this House has the right to express their opinion before this House in whatever way they feel is appropriate and to be listened to.”—[Official Report, 19 January 2010; Vol. 504, c. 173.]

I am sure that the Deputy Leader of the House still feels that that is true.

[Mr Harper]

I agree, and indeed we did listen to the hon. Gentleman at length—I am just not sure that what he said would not have been improved had it been a little more brief. [Interruption.] It is a jest; do not take it so seriously.

As the hon. Gentleman said, the new clause and the new schedules are fairly sizeable. I am not going to labour the discussion on them, but they are important and so I shall go through them in some detail—I hope not to detain the House for longer than is absolutely necessary. They are required to provide that the referendum on the voting system can be combined with the eight different elections or local referendums across the UK that could take place on 5 May 2011. The “combination amendments”—I use a collective noun for them—consist of one new clause and four schedules. There is a schedule to deal with the combination with elections or local government referendums for each of England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Each schedule is divided into three parts: part 1 deals with general provisions; part 2 deals with postal voting provisions; and part 3 deals with forms.

I think it is helpful to state that we decided not to include the combination provisions in the Bill when it was introduced on 22 July in order, as we said then, to allow us time to work with the Electoral Commission, the Association of Electoral Administrators and others in government, particularly those in the territorial offices, to make sure that if we did hold the referendum on the same day as elections, notwithstanding the arguments that Members of the Committee have made about whether or not we should do so, those polls would be well conducted and well run.

Our general approach has been to adopt a consistent approach for the referendum across the UK, but we have recognised that in some areas there is a need for variation to reflect local circumstances. For example, following consultation with the Scotland Office, the Wales Office and the chair of the interim Scottish electoral management board it became apparent that it would make the conduct of the referendum and elections easier for administrators if, in Wales and Scotland, the referendums were run on the same respective boundaries as the Welsh Assembly and the Scottish parliamentary elections. Appropriate provisions were consequently added to the Bill following a successful Government amendment last Monday and further provisions to support this are included in new schedules 3 and 4.

I am conscious that this is a sizeable set of amendments and it is only right and proper that we should go through them in some detail, so let me set them out for the benefit of the Committee. At the end of my remarks I shall say something about the territorial orders, so if the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) feels the urge to intervene on me about that point, I want him to know that I will get to it and, if he will hold his horses, I will set it out.

New clause 20 provides that the referendum on the voting system will be combined with the following polls, which are scheduled to take place on 5 May next year: elections to the Welsh Assembly, elections to the Scottish Parliament, elections to the Northern Ireland Assembly, local elections in England, local elections in Northern Ireland, mayoral elections in five local authorities in England and parish elections in England. There is also a strong likelihood that there might be some local mayoral referendums in England on 5 May and we have included provisions to allow those polls to be combined with the referendum.

New clause 20 includes provisions on parish elections, which reflect the commitment that I made to my hon. Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous) on Second Reading. In England, parish council elections will be combined with the local elections and the referendum on the voting system and not postponed for three weeks. The Government’s decision takes into account the positive impact on turnout and the savings that can be made by combining these polls. Before making that decision, I was reassured by the Electoral Commission and the Association of Electoral Administrators that it would be possible in practice to combine the referendum, local elections and parish council elections on 5 May. I understand that that position is also supported by the National Association of Local Councils.

Subsection (6) of new clause 20 provides that, with the exception of the polls I have mentioned, no further polls will be combined with the referendum if they are arranged for 5 May. If there are any other unscheduled polls, such as a UK parliamentary by-election or a local government by-election in Wales, that run on separate boundaries, they will be run as separate elections, which will be easier and more straightforward for electoral administrators.

New schedule 2 sets out the provisions for the combination of the referendum with local parish and mayoral elections and local government referendums in England. I can advise the Committee that the majority of these provisions mirror those that already exist for combining polls under the various combination rules included under relevant pieces of legislation, such as the “Mayoral Elections (Combination of Polls) Rules” set out in schedule 3 to the Local Authorities (Mayoral Elections) (England and Wales) Regulations 2007. I fear that I might refer to similarly exciting-sounding parts of the legislative book during this debate.

Part 1 of new schedule 2 contains the following provisions, which I am sure that the Committee will be interested to note. Paragraph 3 provides that at a combined poll, a counting officer will be able discharge a number of the functions for which a returning officer would usually be responsible at an election. In short, it means that those functions that are discharged by referendum counting officers, such as the provision of polling stations, appointment of poll clerks and issuing of combined poll cards, will automatically determine practice at both polls. We have allowed for decisions on most core functions that relate to the conduct of a combined poll to be made at the discretion of the counting officer. That follows the approach taken in existing combination legislation that when polls are combined, certain functions in relation to the conduct of both polls are carried out by one officer.

There are two key exceptions. The printing of the ballot paper for the election polls will remain under the control of returning officers. Decisions about whether or not to combine postal ballot packs will be made through the counting officer agreeing a position with the relevant returning officer. The latter position ensures that decisions will be made in accordance with local needs. There are situations in which combining those postal ballot packs would simply not be practical and legislating for counting officers and returning officers to do things that are simply not practically possible does not seem to be very sensible.



Paragraph 5 provides that the cost of the combined polls will be equally apportioned between them. For example, in the case of a combined referendum on the voting system and local government elections in England, the cost would be split 50:50 between the Consolidated Fund and the local authority concerned.

Paragraph 9 permits the counting officer to decide whether combined corresponding number lists should be used for the combined polls. Paragraph 11 provides that the notice of poll for the combined elections should be published

“not later than the 15th day before the date of the poll.”

The 15-day deadline is necessary to ensure that a consistent approach is taken for all the polls that we are combining on 5 May.

Paragraph 15 provides that the ballot papers used for the referendum must be a different colour from the ballot papers used for any combined poll, thereby preventing any risk that voters might confuse the ballot papers. Paragraph 16 provides clarity that the polling stations that the counting officer chooses for the referendum will be used for all combined polls taking place in the voting area.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr MacNeil]

On the use of separate ballot boxes, if a voter happens to put both papers in one or other of the ballot boxes, will that be cleared up at the polling station simply by transferring the relevant paper to the right pile?

[Mr Harper]

Clearly, as is common with combined polls, the verification procedure, which I shall discuss later, will make sure that verification is complete for all polls before any election results are declared, so that there will not be problems if a whole load of ballot papers are suddenly found in the wrong box. That provision is fairly consistent with what happens now in combined elections.

[Mr MacNeil]

Will the Minister clarify that point? When he says “verification”, does he mean “counting”, with a declaration of the result after both polls have been counted, or does he mean that the papers will be separated to ensure that they are in the right place and that, in Scotland, votes for the Scottish Parliament will be counted and declared before people get around to counting and declaring the result of the referendum?

[Mr Harper]

I shall come to the order of counting in a while, but we have made it clear in previous debates that the election results should be counted first.

[Mr MacNeil]

And declared?

[Mr Harper]

Yes. The verification of both the referendum and election ballot papers will take place first; it will not be necessary to count the referendum papers at that point, but they will have to be verified to make sure that no election ballot papers have inadvertently been put in the wrong box. That is what happens with combined general and local elections now: local election votes do not have to be counted before general election votes can be counted and the result declared, but both sets of papers have to be verified to ensure that all the general election papers are in one place and that the result is accurate. That does not hold up the declaration of results, which, quite importantly for all the devolved Assemblies, will be wanted as soon as possible. When I come to that issue, the hon. Gentleman can jump straight in if he thinks I have not been clear.

Following our debate in Committee on 18 October, I confirm that a large-print version of the ballot papers for each of the relevant polls, including the referendum, must be displayed at all polling stations. Paragraph 20 provides that at a combined poll:

“The large version of the ballot paper displayed…must be of the same colour as the ballot papers to be used for the referendum.”

Paragraphs 27 to 34 permit the counting officer to use the same copy of the register for each poll to combine the various lists that are produced for proxy voters, the votes marked by the presiding officer, the list of voters with disabilities assisted by companions and the tendered votes list.

Paragraph 36 sets out the procedure that presiding officers must follow at the close of poll. That includes rules on the packets that need to be made up and sent to the counting officer after the poll has closed. Provision is included to ensure that certain documents relating to each poll are not combined with documents relating to any other poll. That applies to unused or spoilt ballot papers, tendered ballot papers and certificates as to employment on the day of the poll.

Paragraphs 38 to 45 set out the Government’s policy for the verification and count procedure at a combined poll. The combination amendment does not specify the timing of the count for any of the polls, to ensure that there is flexibility for votes on the ballot papers for the elections to be counted before those for the referendum. The combination rules for the verification and count process make it clear that once ballot papers have been received from polling stations, they have to be taken out of the ballot boxes and separated into piles for each poll. Before the votes on ballot papers for any poll can be counted, the counting officer or relevant returning officer must ensure that the ballot papers from a ballot box are mixed with the ballot papers for that poll from a different ballot box, and that postal ballot papers are mixed with ballot papers for that poll from a ballot box. If the counting of votes for any poll has not commenced by the time the verification process has been concluded, the ballot papers for that poll must be sealed up and retained by the counting officer in the case of referendum ballot papers, or delivered to the relevant returning officer, who will be responsible for storing the ballot papers securely until the count takes place.

Paragraph 46 provides that the verification process for all combined polls must have been completed before the declaration of any counts. Although we are aware that that may delay the declaration of a count, we believe that given the number of polls taking place the requirement is essential to ensure that all the ballot papers have been correctly accounted for, thereby ensuring the integrity of the count. Clearly, as with combined elections, having to do all the verification may mean that the result is a little delayed, but it will not mean that we have to wait for the referendum to be counted before the election count.

Paragraphs 48 and 49 set out the arrangements for ensuring that the counting officer and returning officer seal up all relevant papers in appropriate packets after the poll, and deliver them to the relevant registration officer. All documents that have been combined will be sealed together and sent by the counting officer to the relevant registration officer. Where it has been decided to use separate lists for each poll, the documents will be sealed in separate packets and delivered to the relevant registration officer by either the counting officer for the referendum or the returning officer for the relevant election.

We have specifically provided that in the event of legal proceedings arising on the referendum and/or relevant election, the court can make an order for the production of combined documents relating to the poll or polls.

[Chris Bryant]

I am grateful to the Minister for going through in some detail the large number of pages containing the amendments, new clauses and new schedules. The register for local elections in England will be different from the register used for the referendum, and from the register in Wales. The Government’s provisions suggest that there should be just one register in each polling station and that some kind of mark will be made somewhere to suggest who has had, and who has not had, each of the ballot papers. Is he confident that that will meet the requirement to make sure that nobody has a ballot paper to which they are not entitled? How will the returning officer make sure that the list of voters who have voted, or who have been given ballot papers, is accurately provided to the regional counting officer and then the counting officer, as well as to the local authority?

[Mr Harper]

The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. We are confident that the provisions will work appropriately. Combining the referendum with the elections may be controversial—although more for issues relating to the mechanics of the election—but it is not as though we never hold combined elections. We hold combined general elections and local elections, which have different franchises. There may be the odd problem, but in the main they work well, so this is not a new departure for those who run elections. We are confident about the rules, which we reached after close working with the Electoral Commission, which is responsible for running the referendum, and the Association of Electoral Administrators, which is responsible for delivering elections. They are confident that we have come up with a set of rules that maximise the ability of all individuals on the ground to run a smooth set of combined polls on 5 May 2011.

Part 2 of new schedule 2 includes provisions for the issue and receipt of postal ballot packs. The provisions apply existing legislation and make the necessary modifications. When read together, they set out the Government’s policy that the proceedings on the issue and receipt of postal ballot papers can be combined if returning and counting officers think fit. They also set out how the procedure works when papers are combined and when they are issued separately; the procedure and timing for the issue and receipt of postal ballot papers; the persons who are entitled to be present at proceedings on receipt of postal ballot papers for both the referendum and the relevant election; and the procedure for forwarding and retaining documents relating to the postal voting process—for example, postal voting statements, the proxy voters log and the postal voters list.

Part 3 of new schedule 2 sets out the combined forms that can be used for the purposes of the combined polls. The forms include corresponding number lists, postal voting statements, guidance for voters and a certificate of employment. As is the case for forms contained in the referendum rules, the Electoral Commission will be able to modify the forms for the purpose of making them easier for voters to understand or use.

I can confirm to the Committee that equivalent provisions with necessary modifications to take into account local needs have been provided for the combination of polls in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland under new schedules 3, 4 and 5.

[Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab)]

Before we move off the subject, a person applying for a postal ballot might automatically assume that by doing so they will get one for all elections. Is that so, or must they apply separately for a postal ballot for each poll?

[Mr Harper]

I do not want to anticipate the debate that we will have on the proposals of the hon. Member for Rhondda, but we have said that someone’s standing postal vote application for parliamentary elections will trigger their postal vote for the referendum. It is the same franchise, and we thought that that was a better way around the problem than insisting that all those with a standing postal vote application for a parliamentary election apply for a new postal vote specifically for the referendum. We wanted to maximise the opportunities for people to take part rather than have people who miss out because they did not realise that they needed to apply for a new postal vote. We have ensured that if people already have a standing postal vote for a parliamentary election, they will get one for the referendum.

[Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (Lab)]

In response to my hon. Friend the Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mark Tami), the Minister specifically mentioned people who have a postal ballot for parliamentary elections. My recollection of the paperwork that is issued in Scotland is that electors tick boxes to say that they want a postal ballot for all elections. That might seem like a nit-picking point, but will the Minister confirm that by ticking a box marked, “All elections,” people will be entitled to receive a postal ballot for the referendum?

[Mr Harper]

My understanding is that if people are entitled to, or have applied for, a postal vote for a parliamentary election and tick the box marked “All elections”—that is a common way of asking that question in England as well as in Scotland—and if they are on the list for parliamentary elections, they will get a postal vote for the referendum. I am sure that if I have got that wrong, inspiration will strike me and I can correct my answer.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

Of course, in England on 5 May, we will have not parliamentary elections, but local elections. What assessment has the Minister or the Cabinet Office made of the number of people who are registered only for council election postal votes?

[Mr Harper]

Clearly, we do not need to have a parliamentary election—registration for a permanent postal vote for a parliamentary election will automatically trigger the postal vote for the referendum. What happens if a person is registered for a postal vote only for local elections depends on whether the postal ballot packs are combined.

[Mr Tom Harris (Glasgow South) (Lab)]

Can the Minister clarify the situation for next May? Is it conceivable that large numbers of voters in England—this probably will not happen in Scotland—will be sent automatically the referendum ballot paper but not a council ballot paper? People might have to go to the polling station to vote for their councillor, and yet be able to vote only by post in the referendum. Has the Cabinet Office made any calculation of how many people that will affect?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Harper]

If we were not having a referendum and were having only local council elections in England—I shall refer to England, as that is what the hon. Gentleman’s question was about—people would not get a postal vote if they had not asked for one, or if they were not registered for a permanent one. If they were registered for a postal vote for a parliamentary election, that would come automatically, but that would not in any way reduce their ability to participate in local elections, as they had not asked for a postal vote.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Harper]

Let me take the intervention from the hon. Member for Glasgow South (Mr Harris), as I am responding to his point.

[Mr Harris]

There is a corollary to what the Minister says, then. If people are registered to vote by post for a parliamentary election, and they then receive the ballot paper for the AV referendum, is it not likely that they will fill in that ballot paper without going to the polling station in order to cast a vote in the local council elections, thereby deflating turnout in the local council elections, which are extremely important?

[Mr Harper]

I am not sure I agree with the hon. Gentleman. I am not sure that voting in the referendum by post would make someone less likely to go and vote in their local council elections, as long as they were clear about what was going on. We have been clear, and the Electoral Commission has been clear—

[Andrew Gwynne]

rose—

[Mr Harper]

Let me finish responding to the intervention before I take another one. It is important that people are clear about what is going on. The Electoral Commission has said that one of its key responsibilities, as well as running the referendums, is to make sure that clear guidance is issued to those conducting elections and that there are clear communications to electors. The commission will send a booklet to every household to explain to people the elections and referendum that are taking place, so that people are clear about what is happening. The point raised by the hon. Member for Glasgow South is well made.

[Andrew Gwynne]

My concern is the opposite to that of my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow South (Mr Harris). Plenty of people in England will be registered for a local election postal vote, but not necessarily for a parliamentary election postal vote. They will get a ballot paper for the 5 May council elections, but not for the referendum. How is that right?

[Mr Harper]

Well, because they are not registered for a parliamentary ballot. The reason for making those equivalent is that the referendum is taking place on the Westminster parliamentary franchise—

[Chris Bryant]

No, it is not.

[Mr Harper]

Plus peers; and it seems that using those who have asked for a postal vote for that type of election, given that we are talking about changing the voting system—

[Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab)]

Resign!

[Mr Harper]

If resignations were based on that level of accuracy, there would not have been any members of the previous Government in post for longer than about a week, so we will have no more of that.

[Chris Ruane]

I thank the Minister for giving way. Right, here we go: what would happen in Wales if an elector were registered for a postal vote at European elections, not for a postal vote at parliamentary elections, for a postal vote at Welsh Assembly Government elections, and for a postal vote at local government elections? Whatever the Minister says, will the public understand it?

[Mr Harper]

If such a voter had elected to register for a permanent postal vote for every possible election except a Westminster parliamentary one, they would clearly have had a good reason for doing that, so our proposal that the UK parliamentary franchise be used makes sense. I do not think the hon. Gentleman makes a sensible point.

[Chris Ruane]

I left out town council elections.

[Mr Harper]

I think my answer stills stands.

[Ms Louise Bagshawe (Corby) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that there is deliberate obfuscation going on, given that some citizens eligible to vote in local elections are not necessarily eligible to vote in Westminster elections—for example, European nationals, whom we would not wish to vote in the referendum anyway? Contrary to the intervention by the hon. Member for Glasgow South (Mr Harris), is not one of the biggest predictors of voting whether someone has voted before? Is not the existence of the referendum therefore more likely to increase, rather than depress, turnout in local elections?

[Mr Harper]

My hon. Friend is spot-on. To be frank, I think that voters are perfectly capable of working out what elections or referendums are taking place. Voters in Wales will have had some warm-up practice in March, because they will have had an important referendum on the powers that the Welsh Assembly Government should have. They will therefore have had the opportunity to think about whether they want an absent vote. That will mean, I am sure, that at the front of their minds, as they approach the elections and referendum on 5 May, they will be thinking hard about whether they will be around and able to vote in person, or whether they should apply for an absent vote. At least in Wales, therefore, what the hon. Member for Glasgow South suggests might happen is unlikely to do so.

Now, where did I get to? [Laughter.] There have been so many interventions. I suspect that it was nice for everyone to break up the monotony of my voice reading out these exciting provisions, so I am happy to have taken those criticisms from the Committee.

Given that the provisions in schedules 3 to 5 are largely consistent with those I have outlined for England, I am sure that the Committee will be relieved to hear that I do not intend to go through their contents in the same detail. However, I will go through some of the key provisions we have made for Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales. As I confirmed earlier, we have amended the definition of a voting area for the referendum as it applies in Scotland and Wales to provide that the referendum is to be run on the same respective boundaries as Scottish parliamentary and National Assembly for Wales elections. That will help with the administration of the elections, as the officials involved in delivering them have said.

We have kept the provisions on the timing of the count silent in the legislation to allow sufficient flexibility for the counts for the devolved elections to take place prior to the referendum count. We have based the postal voting provisions in part 2 of schedules 3 and 4 on those that apply for Welsh Assembly and Scottish parliamentary elections, making modifications where necessary to take account of the referendum. That will ensure that small differences in regional practice on postal voting will carry through to the referendum.

[Chris Bryant]

But why? Why should there be variations in postal vote practices around the country for a UK-wide referendum?

[Mr Harper]

It is because we are combining it with elections that are different in different parts of the UK. Picking up on points that hon. Members were making earlier, I can say that the poll cards issued will confirm the voting arrangements that will apply to a particular elector for each poll. They will explain to electors the arrangements in place, and people will be able to apply to the registration office to vary their postal voting arrangements up until 11 days before the poll, or six days before the poll where a proxy vote takes place. That will be helpful.

The Committee will want to be aware—certainly the hon. Member for Rhondda will—that I can confirm that all the new orders have been laid by the territorial offices today to update the rules for the elections to the Scottish Parliament, the Northern Ireland Assembly and the National Assembly for Wales. Given that the combination amendments just discussed are based on existing legislation, as is usual practice, any consequential amendments reflecting those new territorial orders will be tabled for debate on Report next week, as I said last week.

[Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)]

Will the Minister detail to the Committee what discussions and consultation he has held with the Scottish Government, the Welsh Assembly and the Northern Ireland Assembly prior to the orders being laid?

[Mr Harper]

I am not sure whether the hon. Gentleman was here when we had a slight rehearsal of this discussion at the beginning of our sitting, but the hon. Member for Rhondda asked me what discussions I had had about the conduct of the referendum in the devolved nations and about the arrangements for the combined polls, and I made the point to him that arrangements for elections in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are the responsibility not of Ministers in the devolved nations, but of the territorial Secretaries of State.

I also pointed out to the hon. Gentleman that I had written to explain how we would lay and handle the combination amendments. I wrote not just to Opposition Front Benchers and Members who had expressed an interest, but out of courtesy to the leaders of every party represented in the devolved Parliament and Assemblies in order to keep them confirmed.

I said also that my right hon. Friends the Secretaries of State for Scotland, for Wales and for Northern Ireland have had discussions with representatives of the Administrations in each country about the combined elections, although it is fair to say that they all said to me—I shall not go through the issue in detail, because we had this debate at length on day one of Committee—that they were not happy with the combined poll.

[Pete Wishart]

Is it fair to characterise the Minister’s response as “No consultation with the Scottish Parliament, Welsh Assembly or Northern Ireland Assembly”? Would that be roughly right?

[Mr Harper]

No. The conduct of elections is currently the responsibility of the territorial Secretaries of State. I also made the point to the hon. Gentleman’s colleague, the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil), who was here at the beginning of our sitting, that with the Calman recommendations, the administration of elections in Scotland is proposed to be devolved to the Scottish Government. Clearly, if such elections were to take place in future, the Scottish Government would be very involved, but at the moment the responsibility for the administration of each election is that of the Secretary of State, not of the devolved Administrations.

[Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab)]

rose—

[Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)]

rose—

[Mr Harper]

Let me give way to those Members in the order that they rose: to the right hon. Gentleman and then to the hon. Ladies.

[Mr Howarth]

Given the procedure that the Minister has just described, can he assure me that under the orders to which he has referred, the process in Scotland, for example, cannot differ from that in England, Northern Ireland or Wales? If it can, it might change the terms on which people in each part of the United Kingdom are able to engage in a referendum.

[Mr Harper]

I am not sure that I follow the right hon. Gentleman. Clearly, there will be some differences. One difference I outlined is that, because the referendum is being combined in Scotland with Scottish parliamentary elections, the voting areas and conduct of the elections will be based on Scottish parliamentary constituencies. That will clearly be different in Wales, where they will be based on Welsh parliamentary constituencies, and in England the referendum will be conducted according to local government boundaries, all so that we can combine the elections in the most sensible way, which is what the administrators wanted us to do.

[Mr Howarth]

I understand that, but I had in mind the question: is there any way in which the qualification for taking part in a referendum might inadvertently be changed by that process?

[Mr Harper]

No. The franchise—those who can take part in the referendum on the voting system—are those people entitled to vote in Westminster parliamentary elections and, before the hon. Member for Rhondda jumps up, the small amendment that we have made, the addition of peers. The franchise is the same throughout the United Kingdom, so those entitled to vote in Westminster elections will be able to vote; the issue is simply to do with the mechanics of administering the polls to ensure that the elections are conducted using the most administratively sensible process.

[Margaret Curran]

The Minister may not be aware, but I am still a Member of the Scottish Parliament, and I feel obliged to point out to him that throughout the Parliament there are concerns about the coalition Government’s decision to hold the referendum on the same date as Scottish Parliament elections. People across the political spectrum in Scotland profoundly feel that that is a great disrespect to the Scottish Parliament, and I say that with great authority.

--- Later in debate ---

[The First Deputy Chairman]

Please resume your seat.

[Mr Harper]

I am grateful, Mr Evans: I had got the hon. Lady’s point. I am not trying to minimise her concern, but I note that none of the devolved Parliaments or Assemblies has passed any formal motions or resolutions expressing that view to this House.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Bryant]

rose—

[Mr Harper]

If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, I will come to him when I have completed this point.

We recognise that there is a different qualitative issue raised by the combination of the general election and these elections. As I have said in previous debates, we are thinking about how that issue may be dealt with, and we will come back to the House and the devolved Administrations in due course.

[Mr MacNeil]

rose—

[Cathy Jamieson]

rose—

[Mr Harper]

Let me take the hon. Member for Rhondda first.

[Chris Bryant]

It seems extraordinary that the Government are taking this attitude in relation to consulting the devolved Administrations about their own elections. I fully understand that they do not have legislative competence for that matter—it is a competence reserved to Westminster—but it would be common human decency to be able to consult them. In the past, the Minister has tried to argue that he wanted to tell this House before he told anybody else. However, he knows perfectly well that through the Joint Ministerial Committee there are provisions for the Government to speak to the Welsh Assembly Government, the Executive in Scotland and so on. There is no reason why he could not have used those processes perfectly well.

[Mr Harper]

The hon. Gentleman should know that those processes have been used. The matter has been raised at the JMC. I am thinking back to—

[Cathy Jamieson]

rose—

[Mr MacNeil]

rose—

[Mr Harper]

Hang on: let me deal with one intervention at a time.

My understanding—I am sure that this is the case—is that this issue has been raised at the JMC; I am sure that I will be corrected if it has not. Moreover, one would be having these conversations not only with the Administrations but with the Parliaments and Assemblies themselves. I know that some of those conversations have taken place. For example, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales has had a communication from the Presiding Officer of the Welsh Assembly making it clear that its Members did not want the date of the Assembly election changed.

[Cathy Jamieson]

I think that the Minister said that the Scottish Parliament and the other devolved Assemblies had not taken a formal position by means of passing a resolution. Is he therefore suggesting that should, say, the Scottish Parliament pass such a resolution, he would change his mind?

[Mr Harper]

No, I was not suggesting that at all; I was simply making the point that they have not done so. However, let me save them time and trouble by saying that if they do, it will not make us change our minds, so they can focus on the important issues that voters will be concerned about.

[Mr MacNeil]

Does the Minister find it a bit rich—I know I do—that Labour Members, particularly those who are still Members of the Scottish Parliament, argue day in, day out against more powers for the Scottish Parliament, yet suddenly, when party politics are involved, try to score points by saying that they want more powers for the Scottish Parliament? They should stick to their principles and not play party politics with the issue when they are here. We should give power to the Scottish Parliament similar to that for the Isle of Man, at the very least.

[Mr Harper]

I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman. I will not add to his point, but I am now slightly envious that I am not a Member of the Scottish Parliament too, and so cannot indulge in such debates on a daily basis. I now know what I am missing out on by not participating in Scottish politics.

In answer to the hon. Member for Rhondda, I can confirm that these issues have been discussed at the JMC. If he does not believe that they have, I will happily write to him and give him the details.

[Chris Bryant]

To be honest, I do not want the Minister to write to me, I want him to consult the respective Executives in—[Interruption.] The hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) should calm down. The Government are ensuring that he has his own rotten borough, so he does not have to worry about the Bill.

I want to ensure that consultation happens properly. We rightly insist that before any European Union legislation is brought in we should have 10 weeks to do our proper parliamentary duty, and the same should apply to the Welsh Assembly, the Scottish Parliament and the Northern Ireland Assembly. The Minister is deliberately eliding two concepts. Raising the matter at the JMC is one thing, but consulting expressly on written documents, which has not happened in relation to any of these issues, is something else altogether.

[Mr Harper]

The hon. Gentleman said that he wanted to ensure that these issues had been discussed, and they have been raised and discussed at the JMC. The devolved Administrations probably still disagree with the Westminster Government’s decision, but the matter has been discussed. He is not making a very sensible point.

[Mark Tami]

Would the Minister not agree that Scotland in particular has experience of holding polls on the same day, and that problems have resulted?

[Mr Harper]

It certainly does have that experience, which is why we looked closely at the conclusions in the Gould report. In an earlier debate I made it clear that although Ron Gould—he of the said report—said that combination would not have been his first choice, he was clear that combining a simple yes/no referendum and the Scottish parliamentary elections was likely to be a much more straightforward proposition than what happened in the elections to which the hon. Gentleman refers. Ron Gould did not believe that the same problems would occur.

[Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab)]

I can assure the Minister that I am not going to rant and rave like the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil). The Minister says that a referendum and a parliamentary election on the same day are acceptable, but that seems to imply that only two votes will take place on the same day. However, there will be a first-past-the-post vote for the Scottish Parliament, a list vote for the Scottish Parliament and a referendum. He is possibly misleading Parliament—not intentionally—by implying that there will be only two votes.

[Mr Harper]

No, we have added one extra vote to what would otherwise have taken place, and it will have a simple yes or no question rather than a complex electoral system. Like the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar in an earlier debate, the hon. Member for Dundee West (Jim McGovern) is doing his fellow Scots a disservice by suggesting, albeit obliquely, that they are not capable of making a decision in the referendum as well as voting in the very important Scottish parliamentary elections.

[Mark Tami]

Does the Minister not recognise that candidates standing in the Welsh Assembly and Scottish Parliament elections could take various lines about whether they are pro-AV or anti-AV? There is still a lot of scope for a very confusing situation.

[Mr Harper]

No, I do not think there is, actually. People are perfectly capable of laying out the prospectus on which they stand and the important issues on which they are campaigning in the elections to the Welsh Assembly, Northern Ireland Assembly and Scottish Parliament, and also joining the yes or no campaign on a voting system for this Parliament. That is not very complicated at all, and our voters will show us that we are underrating them if we take that view. Incidentally, next week, Americans will vote in an extraordinary number of elections—I shall pursue that thought only briefly, Mr Evans, for fear that you will rule me out of order—and they are perfectly capable of doing that, in the same way as voters here are perfectly capable of voting in two or three sets of elections next year.

[Chris Bryant]

The Parliamentary Secretary knows that the system that evolved in the United States because they have so many elections at the same time means simply pulling a Democrat or a Republican switch. Surely he does not intend to move to that system.

[Mr Harper]

Not at all. Many voters give much thought to whom they will support in different elections. There are many examples of people voting differently in different sorts of elections, doing what they call splitting the ticket.

[Mr McCann]

Will the Parliamentary Secretary focus on the pertinent point about the 2007 elections in Scotland? Many elderly voters are extremely confused. I have many elderly constituents who are proud of having voted in every election since they were given the opportunity to do so. The introduction of new voting systems in 2007 made the ballot papers confusing for them, and they were disturbed by that. Does the hon. Gentleman accept that holding another vote on the same day as the Scottish elections will provide scope for confusion, and many people will therefore be disfranchised in the referendum?

[Mr Harper]

The hon. Gentleman would have a stronger point if we were talking about another set of elections with a new voting system, and putting everything on one ballot paper. However, we have examined the lessons in the Gould report and want to ensure that we combine the elections in such a way as to minimise the opportunity for confusion. Ron Gould said that combining elections would not be his preference—I am quoting him fairly—but he is confident that the scope for confusion is nothing like the situation in 2007. He is fairly confident that the elections and the referendum will be organised sensibly and competently. I think that our combination provisions achieve that.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Harper]

I will take one more intervention and then finish, because I am almost there. Hon. Members can then make their own speeches.

[Mr McCann]

I am very grateful to the Parliamentary Secretary for giving way again. Does not he accept that in Scotland we will have a first-past-the-post election for the Scottish Parliament, the alternative vote system, and then we must explain to people that there is also a yes/no vote? It would be fine if we had only the yes/no vote—that is straightforward—but there are additional complications. Does not the point that he has just made concede my point? That is the point that he must grasp.

[Mr Harper]

No, because no new electoral systems will be invented next year. People will vote in the Scottish Parliament elections in the same way as they did previously, with the addition of a relatively simple yes or no question on the voting system for this House. Voters may prove us wrong, but I think that they are perfectly capable of making such decisions at the same time as voting in Welsh Assembly, Scottish Parliament or English council elections, and of differentiating the polls. Clearly, that requires good organisation on the ground and good communication. The Electoral Commission is aware of that; that is why it will write to every household to set out clearly in each of the devolved parts of the UK details of the elections that are taking place, the referendum and the procedures, so that people are clear about it. The yes and no campaigns obviously bear part of that responsibility too.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Harper]

I have dealt with the point that the hon. Member for East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow (Mr McCann) made, perhaps not to his satisfaction, but at length. I have a few more sentences and I am done. Hon. Members can make their own speeches then. I have been reasonably generous in giving way.

The territorial orders were tabled today. When the Committee stage is complete we will table the amendments, as I promised hon. Members last week, so that the House can debate them to reflect the new territorial orders—

[Chris Bryant]

How?

[Mr Harper]

The territorial orders have been laid before the House, and are therefore available to Members. They are not amendable, but it is possible for the House to vote them down, in which case we would simply revert to the combination provisions that we are discussing. If the House votes for them, and for our amendments next week, we will have been able to debate all the rules that will be in place next year, and will not have left it to their lordships.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Harper]

As I set out earlier in this debate, clearly it would not have been sensible for us to table changes to the Bill to reflect orders that had not yet been laid before the House, but they have been laid before the House today, so—[Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman says that they have not been agreed. I have said that they have not been agreed, but they have been laid before the House—both of them under the affirmative procedure, so they have to be voted for. If this House or the other place were to vote them down, we would revert to the rules that exist already. We would then be able to go back to the provisions that I am explaining today, which will have been debated in this Committee. Either way, this House will have had the opportunity, on this Bill, to debate the provisions that will be in place for elections next year. That is what I committed to arrange, and that is important.

[Chris Bryant]

rose—

[Mr Harper]

I know that the hon. Gentleman is going to find whatever convoluted way he can to try to pretend that that is not the case, but on any reasonable reading of the situation, we have ensured that before the Bill leaves this place, this House will have had the opportunity to debate the provisions, rather than leaving that to the other place.

[Chris Bryant]

rose—

[Chris Bryant]

It does not need to be convoluted; it is pretty straightforward. I presume that the Minister will agree with me that the law on combination of polls in Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales next Monday will be precisely the same as it is today, so we will not be able to debate amendments to anything other than speculative legislation that will not have been carried by then and will therefore not be the law.

[Mr Harper]

It is correct that that legislation will not have been carried by the House, but it will be available for Members to debate. There are two scenarios: either the House will approve the orders that my right hon. Friends have laid before the House today—in which case the amendments that we will table once the Committee stage is finished, which we will debate on Report next week, will come into force—or the House will vote those orders down, in which case we will revert to what we are talking about today. In either situation, this House will have had the opportunity to debate those provisions—I suspect at length—and they will therefore not be left to the upper House.

We have tried hard to ensure that the elected House has been able to debate both the provisions on the referendum and those on boundaries. If I remember rightly, in the previous Parliament, in which I served, the Government of whom the hon. Gentleman was a member were not so fastidious about ensuring that this House was able to debate provisions. Significant pieces of legislation went to the other place without any debate at all on enormous portions of it. To the extent that it has been within the power of the Government, we have taken great care to ensure that by the time this legislation leaves this House next Tuesday, all the key issues will have been debated and voted on by this House. We may not have achieved perfection, but we have made a pretty good stab at it, and I have to say—honestly—that what we have done is a considerable improvement on much of what the previous Government did. I would ask Members to bear that in mind.

The provisions on postal voting in local elections in Northern Ireland are changed substantially by one of the orders laid today, so it would not have been sensible to deal with that in the current group of amendments. However, to finish on a point that I hope will bring the hon. Gentleman great cheer, I can confirm that no amendments will be necessary in relation to the combination provisions for Wales, as the changes to be made to the rules governing the conduct of the Welsh Assembly elections do not affect any rules relevant to combination with the referendum. On that note, which I am sure will gladden his heart, let me conclude by saying that the combination provisions that we have provided are necessary for the smooth running of all the polls that are scheduled to take place next May.

[Chris Bryant]

I am grateful to the Minister for giving us some of the detail on the amendments, although he has not given all of it, which is significant. I would like to start by picking up where he finished—on the due process that needs to be followed in relation to anything when it reflects the representation of the people, constitutional matters, or the constitutional relationship between Westminster and the devolved Administrations, but which has not, I believe, been followed in this case.

Of course, there should first be pre-legislative scrutiny, but, as we have heard, the Bill has had absolutely none. It is true that the Government published the Bill, but it exists not because of some grand constitutional principle but because of some naked partisan gerrymandering of a Bill. I am sure that if it had been published in pre-legislative form, so that a Committee of this House or a Joint Committee of both Houses had been able to consider it, that Committee would have said, right at the beginning, “You shouldn’t be spatchcocking together these two elements of the Bill”—[Interruption.] Or, “You shouldn’t be kebabbing the legislation in this way.” The Parliamentary Secretary helps me. It is not really spatchcocking; it is more kebabbing. It requires more of an inner-city image than a rural image; he is quite right.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Bryant]

Yes, and I not think anybody could call the Committee’s Chair a patsy. He is a man of fierce independence—sometimes overly fierce, and sometimes overly independent—and the Select Committee’s findings were extremely clear. It reported:

“The Government is determined to pass this legislation quickly in order that the referendum on the Parliamentary electoral system can take place in May 2011. However, we agree with the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee”,

which, incidentally, does not have a Labour majority on it either,

“that the Bill has been given insufficient time for proper scrutiny. ”

It continued:

“The Welsh Grand Committee gives all Welsh Members the opportunity fully to debate issues relating to Wales. That the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill impacts significantly on Wales is clear. In the light of this, we consider the Secretary of State for Wales’s decision not to convene a meeting of the Welsh Grand Committee in this instance to be very disappointing.”

Conservative Members are attacking a Conservative Secretary of State for Wales. It seems extraordinary that the Committee has not had an adequate opportunity to consider the Welsh element of the Bill, particularly the Welsh elements that are before us this afternoon, which are extensive.

Let me make another point about the proper process that should have been observed. We believe in pre-legislative scrutiny and consultation on any constitutional Bill, but this Bill additionally affects elections in Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland. The previous elections for the Scottish Parliament led to significant problems, which my hon. Friend the Member for East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow (Mr McCann) mentioned. This shows how important it is to have proper consultation with each of the devolved Administrations. By that, I mean, first and foremost, consultation “from Government to Government” as it were—that is, the Westminster Government speaking to the Scottish Executive, to Ministers in Northern Ireland and to the Welsh Assembly Government. That could have happened confidentially on a “Government to Government” basis; there is absolutely no reason why that should not have happened.

As I understand it, prior to the comprehensive spending review, extensive confidential discussions took place between relevant Ministers so that Ministers in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland knew more than this House did about what elements would affect their budgets. I have no complaint about that happening with the comprehensive spending review; my argument is that it should apply to the devolved Administrations in respect of this Bill.

[Mr Harper]

As I have said in response to interventions from other Members, the devolved Administrations—and even the devolved Parliaments and Assemblies—do not have a role in delivering elections. Although, as I have said, the position will change for Scotland, the Secretary of State is responsible for administering elections. The hon. Gentleman may not like that, but it is the position and we have worked closely with the territorial offices to ensure that procedures for the referendum work closely with the procedures for elections. That is the position.

[Chris Bryant]

Of course I understand the legal position. Local elections may or may not be happening at the same time in Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales—they will happen across Northern Ireland but perhaps only because of a by-election in Scotland or Wales—but the Assemblies have a degree of responsibility for the conduct of the elections to the Welsh Assembly, the Scottish Parliament and the Northern Ireland Assembly. The Bill decouples the Welsh Assembly constituencies from the parliamentary constituencies so that the Government are able to reduce the number of seats in Wales by 25%. I would have thought that that creates an additional need to consult.

I think that there should have been consultation at two levels. There should have been a degree of consultation at ministerial level, but, because these issues affect the Scottish Parliament, the Welsh Assembly and the Northern Ireland Assembly in their entirety, it would have been common courtesy to consult the Assemblies and the Parliament as Assemblies and a Parliament. In respect of European legislation, we now have a standard and proper process of consultation between the relevant European Committees in the House of Commons and in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. In respect of the Bill, however, there has been no adequate consultation either with the Parliament and Assemblies or with Ministers.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Bryant]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The proper process for a statutory instrument is that, first, consideration is given to whether it should be taken on the Floor of the House or in Committee. Given that all three of these statutory instruments relate to elections and are of a constitutional nature, my preference, and that of Labour Members, is for them to be taken on the Floor of the House and not in some Committee without general public scrutiny. Secondly, statutory instruments have to be considered by the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, which has a limited remit but can examine whether the affirmative or the negative resolution process should be used. Last week, as my hon. Friend rightly says, Ministers, including the Leader of the House, did not seem to have the faintest idea whether or not these would be subject to the affirmative procedure. I am glad to say that the Minister has now made it clear today—

[Mr Harper]

indicated assent.

[Chris Bryant]

He has now made it clear, and we are deeply grateful to him, that these instruments will be dealt with by the affirmative procedure. Indeed, my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan) received a letter to that effect—I was copied into it—on Friday.

We also need to consider what their lordships should do. I contend that we should proceed steadily, rather than at a gallop, on constitutional reform. That means, first, that the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments and the Merits of Statutory Instruments Committee in the House of Lords should go through their processes. We should then decide on the Floor of this House whether we agree the order, as should the House of Lords. That process is particularly important because these orders are not amendable and so we ought to ensure that we have a proper process in place before we reach the Report stage—I do not see how we can consider matters on Report until that has been done.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Bryant]

I am not quite so negative as my hon. Friend about returning officers, but the hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing) had an excellent debate in Westminster Hall the other day—[Interruption.] She is not in her place at the moment, but I am sure she will be later.

[Mr Harper]

The hon. Gentleman was gesturing.

[Chris Bryant]

Yes, I was gesturing to the hon. Lady as if she were there, because in spirit she is sitting just over the Minister’s shoulder, keeping a beady eye on him.

My point is that returning officers often have not only the law breathing down their neck, but elected Members who, in particular at the moment, are understandably worried about the financial situation. They will be wondering whether it is better to spend money on electoral registration, the proper running of election counts and buying more polling station equipment, or on keeping a swimming pool open. I understand the pressure on returning officers, who want clarity from Parliament, but sometimes, as my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow South (Mr Harris) said, they are wrong.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Bryant]

The hon. Gentleman is a Liberal Democrat, and I am sure that he knows all about confusion, especially at the moment. I think that he is trying to quibble to end up with a position that he can proudly defend. In 2007, he would probably have been saying that the elections should not have been held at the same time, so he should be advancing the same argument now. However, I leave that for him and his conscience.

The Welsh Affairs Committee cited Lewis Baston, the senior research fellow with Democratic Audit, who argued that the coincidence in 2015—if the Fixed-term Parliaments Bill goes through in the way that the Government intend—of a general election with Assembly elections in Wales and parliamentary elections in Scotland is even more troubling because

“the elections for Westminster and the Assembly would be taking place on different systems”—

precisely the point made by the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid)—

“on the same day and, more complicatedly, on two sets of boundaries which will hardly ever correlate with each other.”

I am absolutely certain that because the hon. Gentleman is a very honourable gentleman who is always consistent with his arguments, he will therefore vote against provisions in the Fixed-term Parliaments Bill whereby elections in Scotland and Wales are to be held on the same day as the general election. I can see from his smile that I already have his vote in relation to any such amendments.

I am sorry that I have been unable to deal with all the other amendments that we tabled on Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, but some of them merely repeat the other amendments to new schedule 2 as regards England. I hope that we will have an opportunity to vote on quite a number of these proposals.

[Mr Harper]

First, I will pick up several issues raised by the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) and other Members, and at the end of my remarks I will ask the Committee to vote for my new clause and new schedules and to vote against all the amendments tabled by the hon. Gentleman. For colleagues requiring a simple way of thinking about it, that is what I am asking them to do, and they can now choose whether they want to listen to the rest of my remarks.

[Mr Dodds]

The Minister says that he is going to recommend to his hon. Friends that they vote against all the amendments. Does that include the amendment about giving priority to the counting of votes for Assembly elections or local elections over the referendum, given that I seem to remember him saying that he would support such a provision?

[Mr Harper]

We had a debate on this earlier, but I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman was in his place at the time. If he can wait until I get to that section of my speech, I will discuss it then. However, we do not think that his amendment is necessary to achieve the outcome on which he and I agree.

[Mr Tom Harris]

When the Opposition expressed reservations about the rapidity with which the Government were pushing the Bill through, we were assured that a certain number of days on the Floor of the House would be given to the Committee stage to enable Members from all parties to express an opinion. The Minister is now saying that he is recommending opposition to every single amendment tabled by the official Opposition. Is this yet another example of openness and the new politics?

[Mr Harper]

I have said that I am going to explain why hon. Members should vote against the amendments; I think that there are very good reasons for that. I have listened carefully and at length to the hon. Gentleman, as I have on every day of these debates. I want to use this as a good opportunity to talk about these matters.

I am happy to admit that we may not have reached perfection, but when one considers how we have conducted ourselves on this Bill compared with what Labour did when in government, it is clear that we have made tremendous steps forward in allowing the House time to consider it. Last week the hon. Member for Rhondda referred to the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010, which was a similar kind of Bill, and said we should have allowed a day for each clause of our Bill. If a whole day had been spent on each clause of the CRAG Bill, which had 95 clauses, we would have had 24 weeks of debate—and of course we did not. Entire new parts and several stand-alone clauses were added which bore no relation to any existing provisions in the Bill. Only six days in Committee were allowed for those 95 clauses, and only a single day to debate all the new clauses on the alternative vote. There were multiple knives in the programme motion to restrict debate, and only one day for Report. I am happy to accept that we may not be perfect, but we have made tremendous steps forward.

[John Mann]

Is the Minister daring to come to this House and suggest that failing to put this Bill into a proper Committee, with week after week of scrutiny—I would have been happy to serve on it, and to stay overnight as well if necessary—and railroading this gerrymandered Bill through Parliament is in some way democratic? How has he got the nerve to come up with such nonsense?

[Mr Harper]

By having a Committee of the Whole House, we have enabled every Member to be here. I have been here for all five days of debate, and enjoyed them tremendously. I am afraid that I cannot agree with the hon. Gentleman on this particular issue. If he wants to wait, however, he will find that, much to my surprise, I agree with several of his points about the amendments tabled by the hon. Member for Rhondda.

[John Mann]

But Members such as myself have tabled amendments, and because there has not been enough time, they have not even been scheduled for debate. The gerrymandering being attempted is not even being debated in the Committee, because of the timetabling. This collapsing coalition has put together a democratic outrage.

[Mr Harper]

That argument might be credible if I did not remember all the programme motions that the hon. Gentleman voted for in the last Parliament. Indeed, Labour Members opposed both the second programme motion on this Bill, which added six hours of debate, and the original programme motion, which ensured that we had more debate last week than we otherwise would have done. When we gave the Committee more time—to take account of the statement on the strategic defence and security review and the, quite rightly, lengthy statement on the comprehensive spending review—Labour Members voted against extra compensatory time. Labour never gave such compensation when we debated important provisions.

--- Later in debate ---

[John Mann]

Why do the Minister and his mate from the Liberals—the Deputy Prime Minister, who cannot even turn up—not have the courage of their convictions and listen to arguments on amendments, including from their own side of the House, to improve their rotten Bill?

[Mr Harper]

I can see why my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Richard Graham) was confused and tried to intervene on the hon. Gentleman. That was a very lengthy intervention, almost worthy of a speech.

We have made considerable provision for debate, and when the Government provide extra time, the Committee needs to debate a Bill sensibly. To be fair, most Members have done so, but I cannot help but observe that most of the extra time that we added for the past couple of days was almost entirely used up by the hon. Member for Rhondda. Rather than comment, I will let Members judge for themselves whether he used that time well.

[Angela Smith]

However much time the Government give the Bill on the Floor of the House, it will not make up for the lack of the pre-legislative scrutiny that it should have had.

[Mr Harper]

My hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams) dealt with that point very well in his intervention. As my hon. Friend the Deputy Leader of the House has said, if there was pre-legislative scrutiny of everything at the beginning of a new Parliament, with a new Government having been elected, there would be a huge gap in the programme. He has made it clear that taking the Government’s programme as a whole, we will almost certainly end up allowing more scrutiny of draft Bills than any previous Government.

[Angela Smith]

With respect, is not a Bill relating to constitutional reform of such significance that the Government should have waited and gone through a pre-legislative scrutiny process before bringing it to the House?

[Mr Harper]

All that I can say is that we can examine the comparative records. In the last Session under the Labour Government only four Bills had pre-legislative scrutiny. We will end up with twice as many, so our overall record will bear comparison.

I am not sure whether he meant it, but the hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mark Tami) accused us of putting the horse before the cart and proceeding at a gallop. I represent a rural area, so I think I have got this right: putting the horse before the cart seems to be the right thing to do, as does proceeding at a gallop. I do not see any problem with that.

[Mark Tami]

It was actually my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) who said that, not me. As I asked the Minister earlier, will he resign now?

[Mr Harper]

I will not, but I will of course correctly assign the comment to the hon. Member for Rhondda. It perhaps demonstrates that he needs to learn a little more about horses and carts before he makes such allusions.

The hon. Member for Rhondda mentioned combined elections and said that the Government had chosen the date of other elections for the referendum. I cannot help but observe that in both 2001 and 2005 the previous Government specifically chose to have general elections on dates when county council elections were already planned. They knew that in advance, and the elections were combined. They ran perfectly well and passed off without incident. I do not have any complaint about that, but for the Opposition to complain about our choosing to have a referendum on a date when there are other elections seems a bit rich.

[Chris Bryant]

I think I am right in saying that the hon. Gentleman has just said that the 2001 general election was held on the same day as the local elections. It was not: it was held in June, which was when I was first elected. That is yet another reason for him to resign.

[Mr Harper]

No, not at all, because the local elections were also held in June, because of the foot and mouth outbreak. Both sets of elections were moved, and they were on the same day, so it is the hon. Gentleman who should resign. I remember that very well, because my constituency was badly hit by the foot and mouth outbreak and the shambolic way in which it was handled by the Labour Government. That was one good reason why I was elected in 2005, and re-elected this year.

[Kevin Brennan]

On pre-legislative scrutiny, if we are going back to 2001, I will mention that the first Bill that I served on in that Parliament, the Adoption and Children Bill, went through a Special Standing Committee procedure. We had some evidence sessions before the Bill was considered in Committee. It would have been perfectly possible for that to happen with this Bill. Would not the opportunity to take evidence for a few days before Committee stage started—rightly, on the Floor of the House—have made the Bill stronger, and its passage through Parliament better informed?

[Mr Harper]

I have said both today and on earlier days that notwithstanding the short time available to it, the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee did a sterling job of taking evidence and producing a comprehensive report on the Bill. We have examined what it said with great care, even though we do not necessarily agree with it.

The other point that I would make on that subject is that at business questions last week, when some hon. Members were complaining about the amount of time available, an Opposition Member who speaks for her party from the Front Bench complained that we were allowing too much time. She said that it was not very helpful that the House was sitting late, and asked what we were going to do to make the hours of the House more “predictable and family-friendly”. I can only observe that there is a balance to be struck. Some Members think we should sit all night, but when we allow more time, others criticise us for making the House less family-friendly. Opposition Front Benchers cannot have it both ways.

I wish to pick up some of the points that the hon. Member for Rhondda made. He alluded to what I said about combining elections in Northern Ireland, and said that there was not currently any provision to do so. There is provision to combine local elections in Northern Ireland with UK parliamentary elections, and that already takes place, but there is no power in existing legislation to combine Northern Ireland Assembly elections with Northern Ireland local elections. If we did not have such provision in the Bill, they could not be combined and would have to be run separately.

The hon. Gentleman’s amendments seeking to remove the provision for combining elections would not prevent elections from happening on the same day. They would just make it impossible to combine them. They would have to be run completely separately, which would incur extra cost and more complexity. Returning officers and counting officers could not ensure that the arrangements for those elections were brought together to work more sensibly. Those proposals would therefore not take us any further forward. We would still have the elections, but there would be more cost and complexity. He does us no favours by suggesting that.

I made a point about poll cards earlier, but I shall repeat it, because it came up in the contributions of the hon. Gentleman and a number of other hon. Members. Poll cards will confirm the voting arrangements that will apply to particular electors. When they get their cards, electors will know whether they have a postal vote in place, which of the elections they are entitled to vote in, and therefore whether they need to apply for a postal vote for any of the elections. The fact that poll cards will have that information on them will be very helpful.

The hon. Member for Rhondda also mentioned some of the other elections that we propose to combine. I want to correct a small error. I think that I said that five mayoral elections were planned for next year, but the figure is four. I shall list the places for the hon. Gentleman’s benefit: Bedford, Middlesbrough, Mansfield and Torbay. It is possible that further mayoral elections or by-elections might take place next year, and our combination provisions would cover them.

The hon. Gentleman mentioned local government referendums. I understand that several petitions have been registered with local authorities about referendums for directly elected mayors. We think that at least some local referendums are likely to take place. If they are held on the same day, we and the administrators believe that it would be sensible to combine them.

I have already spoken about amendment (a) to new clause 20 to limit the combination of elections. The amendment would not stop the elections happening; it would simply mean that administrators could not take them together. That does not help. I understand the views of hon. Members who do not agree with combination, but we had a lengthy debate of around five and quarter hours about that on the first day of our Committee proceedings. We had the argument and the Committee made a decision. If we accept that the elections will take place on 5 May, the Government amendments intend to ensure that they work sensibly, instead of rerunning the debate about whether they should be held on the same day.

[Chris Bryant]

I understand the thrust of the Parliamentary Secretary’s remarks, but I am not sure that he is right. New schedule 2 refers to England, and although we discussed other elections in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, we did not have a debate about whether English local elections should be held on the same day as the referendum.

[Mr Harper]

No, but we had a debate about whether the referendum should take place next May. If it does, it will be on the same day as the local authority elections. The Committee made a decision about the day on which it wanted the elections to take place—5 May.

Amendment (c) to new schedule 2 deals with the colour of the ballot paper. The current wording of new schedule 2 matches the version that is used in existing combination legislation, which has worked well for several years. The first sub-paragraph of amendment (c) is unnecessary. We do not believe that it is appropriate to give the chief counting officer first choice of colour for the ballot paper for the referendum, partly because of showing respect to the other polls on that day. I cannot remember who raised the point, but there may well be custom and practice about the colour of ballot papers for particular elections in different parts of the UK. We think it appropriate to allow returning officers to continue with their usual custom and practice and to choose a different colour for the ballot paper for the referendum to make it easy for voters to tell the papers apart.

Much to my surprise, amendment (d) is one of two topics on which I agree with the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann). The flexibility that we have allowed on combining poll cards would allow counting officers to make local decisions, which reflect conditions on the ground. There may be particular reasons for that. Returning officers have adduced logistical reasons why printers, distributors and sometimes other administrators cannot combine poll cards. It is not sensible to legislate for something that cannot be delivered on the ground. Our proposals are more sensible and leave the decisions in the hands of officials who can respond to local conditions.

On ballot boxes, my hon. Friend the Member for Burnley (Gordon Birtwistle), who is in his place, made the point well that we want to allow flexibility for administrators to do what makes sense. In some places, where there is only a small polling station, multiple ballot boxes might constitute overkill. Even if there are separate ballot boxes, one cannot guarantee that papers from the election or the referendum do not go into the other ballot box. One must therefore still take all the papers out, separate and verify them. Again, it is much more sensible to leave that decision to administrators, who can take account of local circumstances.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Bryant]

I seek clarification from the Parliamentary Secretary. He said that the three territorial authorities had laid their statutory instruments, but there is nothing in the Vote Office yet. The Scottish statutory instrument is available online, but not in the Vote Office. I hope that he will check the facts for us later.

[Mr Harper]

My information was that we had laid the three territorial orders in the Table Office. I think that that is correct—indeed, I confirm that it is.

[Kevin Brennan]

Do I take it from the Parliamentary Secretary’s comments about attending the count on a Monday that he expects no member of the Government to attend any of the counts for the AV referendum?

[Mr Harper]

I did not say that. I assume that most Members will have duties in the House and in other places. If they do not, of course they can attend the counts. However, I foresee that most Members of Parliament will have important matters to tackle here, instead of attending counts in local authority areas or in Scottish Parliament, Northern Ireland Assembly or Welsh Assembly constituencies.

[Mark Durkan]

rose—

[Chris Bryant]

rose—

[Mr Harper]

I am faced by a galaxy of choices. Let me give way to the shadow Minister first and then to the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan).

[Chris Bryant]

The Minister may be right that somebody has given the statutory instruments to the Table Office, but they are not available in the Vote Office. It would be for the convenience of the Committee if the Government provided copies to the Vote Office today, so that hon. Members can read them before we finish the amendments.

[Mr Harper]

I said that the Government would table the territorial orders today, because it is in relation to those orders—now that we have them and they are available—that we will be able to table amendments after the Committee stage finishes, for discussion on Report. The new clause and the Government new schedules that we have been debating today, and on which I will ask hon. Members to vote, refer to the law as it currently is, prior to the tabling of the territorial orders. Those orders are not needed for Members to deliberate today; they are needed for Members to table amendments for debate on Report, and they will be available to Members in good time for those debates.

[Chris Bryant]

I am just asking a simple thing, which is that the Minister should help the Committee. He says that all the statutory instruments have been tabled, but although the Scottish one is available online, the Welsh and the Northern Ireland ones are not. Would it not be simpler if he provided a few copies to the Vote Office? What possible difficulty can that give him?

[Mr Harper]

As with his lengthy speech, the hon. Gentleman is just going around creating confusion where there is none. The territorial orders that we have laid today—and we have laid them today—will be available for Members in good time for the debate on Report. The debate that we are having today is about new clause 20 and the Government new schedules, which, as he well knows, relate to the law as it currently is, prior to the tabling of the territorial orders, so he is creating a problem where none exists.

[Mark Durkan]

The Minister referred to the fact that the provisions on postal votes in Northern Ireland, as provided for in the Government’s new schedules, are not the same as those provided for elsewhere. Given that he has spent a lot of time dealing with the various Opposition amendments, will he now address that issue? The hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) said that there could be further amendments from the Government. Will the Minister also address that issue, and tell us whether we are awaiting further amendments from the Government on postal voting in Northern Ireland?

[Mr Harper]

This is not a secret: I set out what we were going to do in the letter that I sent to all hon. Members who took part in the debate on Second Reading, and to the Opposition and the leaders of each party represented in the Scottish Parliament, the Welsh Assembly and the Northern Ireland Assembly. What we are going to do is complex, but simultaneously straightforward, which is to have tabled the combination amendments today—that is, the new clause and the Government new schedules, based on existing legislation, which we are debating. The territorial orders updating the legislation have been laid today in the Table Office. When the Committee concludes today, the Government will, as I said in my letter, table amendments that we can debate on Report—if they are selected by the Chairman of Ways and Means—that will be based on the new legislation. The territorial orders that have been laid today will be available in good time for Members to decide whether they want to table any amendments for discussion on Report, because they will be available for Members to see tomorrow. I hope that that helps the hon. Gentleman.

I have set out, at some length, our response to the amendments standing in the name of the hon. Member for Rhondda. As I said at the beginning of this debate, I would urge hon. Members to support our new clause and our new schedules, and to oppose the hon. Gentleman’s amendments.

Question put, That the clause be read a Second time.

Elections and Returning Officers

Mark Harper Excerpts

Wednesday 20th October 2010 Westminster Hall

[Chris Bryant]

The hon. Gentleman makes his point, and I hope that the Minister will be able to answer him on it. I will speak about combined polls a little later.

The Opposition tried to provide an answer to the issue of 10 o’clock voting with an amendment that was discussed last Monday. Unfortunately, not enough hon. Members felt able to vote for it. The Minister said that the problem with our amendment was that it introduced the concept of a queue into British legislation, and that that might be difficult to define. If the British Parliament cannot define a queue, I do not know which Parliament in the world would be able to do so. Many other places in the world have a system in which, for example, a person’s finger is dabbed with indelible ink the moment that they present themselves, and that is the moment at which they are entitled to receive a vote. I am sure that many other ways could be devised. I hope that the Minister will look specifically at a way of ensuring consistency across the country.

The hon. Member for Milton Keynes North made the point tellingly: in some constituencies, the returning officer decided to be generous and to stretch the regulations in one direction, but in other constituencies they decided to be extremely strict about how they operated the system. That inconsistency around the country does not inspire confidence in voters. In subsequent elections, people might think that if it is 9.30 pm or 9.45 pm there is no point going to vote because there are always queues at the polling stations.

I do not want to be nasty to the Minister this morning—

[The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark Harper)]

Keep it for this afternoon.

[Chris Bryant]

I cannot keep it for this afternoon because I do not think that the Minister will be responding to the debate then. However, I thought that he was a little complacent about that element last Monday afternoon. He said that the issue was not an enormous problem and that there was not an enormous number of instances in which it had happened. The figure of 1,200 was suggested, but I suspect that many more people were affected. I suspect that in Hackney North and Stoke Newington alone more than 1,500 people ended up not being able to vote because of the situation. I hope that the Minister will return to the issue with some means of providing consistency around the country.

The inconsistency around the country applies not only to what happens at 10 o’clock but to a whole series of different issues. In part, that is precisely because of the reason adduced by the hon. Member for Epping Forest: although the responsibilities and powers are laid down in statute, a wide amount of freedom is given to the returning officers and there is little accountability. I agree with the hon. Member for Manchester, Withington that it is ludicrous that such a job is thought of as additional to the job of electoral registration officer, and that somehow people have to be additionally recompensed in order to perform their function when there is a general election. I think that it should be part of the standard job description and that no additional fees should be payable. It should be run of the mill and part of doing the job. Frankly, if someone does not do the job well, they should not remain in it. It should not be a question of getting extra payments.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark Harper)]

It is a great pleasure to speak under your chairmanship, Mr Caton. I add my congratulations to my hon. Friend the Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing) on securing the debate. As she correctly said, this is an area in which she has taken great interest over a considerable period, and she has spoken very well on it for our party. She slightly underplayed her role in her mini-triumph earlier this year when she persuaded the then Lord Chancellor to adopt her amendment, which brought considerable consistency—to pick up the point made by the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant)—about counting. Those of us who were up for election and whose result was perhaps not as assured as that of the hon. Gentleman were grateful that the counts took place promptly and we had early results so that we knew our fate. My hon. Friend played a considerable part in that and has taken a great deal of interest in the issue, and we thank her for the opportunity to discuss these matters today.

It is worth saying, so that it is clear, that the administration of elections takes place at local level, as my hon. Friend set out. The acting returning officer is often, although not always, the local authority chief executive or another senior officer. They are responsible for all aspects of the election, including publication of the notice of the election and dealing with the nominations of candidates, ballot papers, polling stations, the counting, the arrangements for the count and the declaration of the result. Part of the tension when we are talking about accountability is about making it impossible for the people running elections also to have a stake in the outcome. The difficulty is about who is accountable.

That highlights one of the issues with the solution that my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Withington (Mr Leech) highlighted. If the task was made part of the local authority chief executive’s day job, for which he is accountable to elected members of a local authority, there would be a risk in some places of political pressure and influence being exerted on the returning officer. That post is separate from the role of chief executive is so that political pressure is not put on that person. We do not want to lose that if we make any changes. My hon. Friend made a good point, but I am not sure that that is the right solution.

[Mr Binley]

There is a distinction between the returning officer and the acting returning officer, which we must not lose sight of. The returning officer is normally a volunteer, not a local government professional, and is guided immensely and totally by the acting returning officer, who is normally the chief executive and does the work. We need to make that distinction.

[Mr Harper]

I thank my hon. Friend for making that point. My hon. Friend the Member for Epping Forest paid tribute to the way in which the acting returning officer conducted the election in her constituency. It would be remiss of me not to mention that I was also fortunate that the acting returning officer in my constituency ensured that the polls ran very smoothly. Indeed, unlike at the last general election in 2005, when I had to wait until about 6 am for the result—albeit perhaps not as long as my hon. Friend the Member for Milton Keynes North (Mark Lancaster)—this time, the acting returning officer and her team made a declaration almost three hours earlier and I was the first Member of Parliament in Gloucestershire to be elected. I have told them that I shall expect that level of service from now on.

What I am describing can be done. It is worth saying that, across the country, with the exceptions that we have discussed, most of the general election counts and the process were very well conducted. The standard is very high. However, that is not to take away from the fact that there were difficulties.

My hon. Friend the Member for Epping Forest and other hon. Members drew attention to the problems that occurred on election day. I am referring to the queues at 10 o’clock. The Electoral Commission, in its report, made the point that that was largely to do with poor planning and poor contingency arrangements on the day. It is worth putting it in context. I am not being complacent or underplaying it, but there are 40,000 polling stations in the United Kingdom and there were issues at 27 of them. The reason why the Government hesitate before we rush off and legislate is that we want to see whether legislating would solve the problem and not create further problems. We want to see whether that is the right way to go. Without wishing to understate the problem, I just think that before we legislate, it is worth thinking about whether that is the right solution.

I will not go into the issue at length. As the hon. Member for Rhondda said, the House had the opportunity earlier this week, because of the amendment that he and his hon. Friends proposed, to debate the matter. The House did debate it and decided not to make the change to the law at this time, but we are considering the Electoral Commission’s report and looking at the right way of solving the problem.

It is worth saying, though, that the law is clear. It has not changed; it has been the law for a considerable time. It is clear that a ballot paper should not be issued after 10 pm, so there is no reason why acting returning officers should be confused about that, and I know that the Electoral Commission will ensure that that guidance is clearly established before the next set of elections.

[Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con)]

Has the number of polling stations, particularly in urban areas, reduced and have they become larger?

[Mr Harper]

My hon. Friend puts his finger on a point that my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Withington raised. In Manchester, there were polling stations that covered too great a geographical area, or far too many electors were expected to vote in them. It is good to hear that Manchester city council has taken steps to address that. It is one of the issues set out in the guidance from the Electoral Commission. It lays out broadly how many electors should be going to a particular polling station, precisely so that if there is a high turnout, that number of electors can be processed smoothly. It is good to hear that in places where we know that there were issues, they are being dealt with. I do not know overall across the country whether there has been a reduction in the number of polling stations.

I suspect that one problem was that given that turnout was lower at the last few general elections and at other elections, as the hon. Member for Rhondda highlighted, some acting returning officers made assumptions that turnout would continue at a low level and were caught unawares when, perhaps because people were more engaged in the election, they took part in it in greater numbers.

[Chris Bryant]

I am sure that the Minister is absolutely right, and I think that another assumption the officers made was that many more people would vote by post. That has undoubtedly happened: in my constituency we have lost, I think, eight polling stations since I was first elected in 2001, for all sorts of reasons that are pretty much insurmountable. Virtually everyone in those old polling districts now votes by post, notwithstanding the points made earlier by the hon. Member for Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart).

[Mr Harper]

The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. I suspect that in some areas people have made assumptions about postal voting. Because of the problems that we have had with such voting at previous elections, quite a lot of my constituents who had decided to vote by post have now gone back to voting in person, partly because they like doing that but also because they feel that it is more secure. Acting returning officers need to take that into account.

[Mr Binley]

My hon. Friend has touched on a very important point. People did not receive their postal votes until after the time allowed for the receipt of them. The returning officers have to stick to the rules, and that is why monitoring is necessary.

[Mr Harper]

My hon. Friend makes a good point, and it comes back to accountability—an issue that has been mentioned by a number of Members. I would say a couple of things about that, and about the payments. The returning officer’s job is separate from and in addition to their normal duties, which ensures that in carrying out those duties they are not accountable to politicians, who might have an interest in the election. Returning officers are not paid for just the one night; a lot of planning and preparation goes into ensuring that elections run smoothly. Indeed, some returning officers appoint deputies to help them, and with whom they share the fees. The Government have issued guidance in relation to national elections, which recommends that that happens.

One of the things that Members have highlighted is the issue of what happens if things go wrong: what is the accountability? In Manchester, the council’s chief executive, who is the acting returning officer, has effectively taken the view that because there were problems in one of the constituencies—Manchester, Withington—he would not take his fee for that. Some other returning officers have also taken that view. Members have suggested that someone should have the ability to make such a judgment, and to not pay the fee. We will be experimenting with that idea, to some extent, in the provisions in the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill.

Regarding the referendum, the chief counting officer—the chairman of the Electoral Commission—is responsible for its conduct, and appoints regional counting officers and counting officers. Those officers will be the same people as the returning officers, but we will—if Parliament agrees—give the chief counting officer the ability to withhold the fee for their duties in conducting the referendum, if performance is not adequate. We will consider whether that has the desired effect, and will review the measure after the referendum to see whether we might want to consider it more widely.

[Mrs Laing]

I thank the Minister for his kind remarks earlier. I have for the first time just seen a good point—a plus point—to having the referendum. The Minister will appreciate that that measure could be a sort of pilot scheme for a system of accountability for returning officers, and that would be very welcome.

[Mr Harper]

I am very pleased that views, certainly on the Government Benches, are hardening in support of our Bill. I look forward to further progress today.

It is worth noting that, although my hon. Friend the Member for Epping Forest suggested that the Electoral Commission should have more powers to direct returning officers in their conduct of elections—not referendums—the Electoral Commission itself has called for greater accountability, but not for greater powers of direction, with the exception of the referendum, the outcome of which they are responsible for. We will think further about that, but we will first see how the step of making the Electoral Commission responsible for the fee for the referendum works—the pros and cons—and whether it might be something to bring in more widely for returning officers. The difficulty would be in deciding to whom they would be accountable, and who would make that decision. We will, however, look at that further, and it might be something to debate after the referendum.

In the six minutes that remain, let me just deal with some of the other issues that my hon. Friend the Member for Epping Forest, and other Members, raised. One issue that she raised, which was supported by my hon. Friend the Member for Northampton South (Mr Binley), was the hypothecation or ring-fencing of funding. My hon. Friend the Member for Epping Forest made two points. For national parliamentary elections, the funding, as she correctly said, is ring-fenced. It comes directly from the Consolidated Fund and the Government say to returning officers that for properly incurred expenditure to do with the election the money is payable from the centre. That is clear, and my hon. Friend made it clear.

The other point is about the money for electoral registration. At the moment, that money is not ring-fenced; it is part of the revenue support grant. I have heard a number of Members state that the money in that revenue support fund is not used for electoral registration, but there is no evidence of that. If people were to bring forward evidence, we would look at the issue very seriously. The hon. Member for Rhondda mentioned those points as well. Given that the electoral registration officer is a senior member of the local authority officer team, the acting returning officer responsible for delivering the elections is often the chief executive, and the other decision makers in local authorities are councillors who have to get elected, I do not understand why we should think it likely that that set of individuals would de-prioritise spending on elections, since that is something in which we as politicians have a great interest. So, I am not convinced intellectually that there should be a problem, and there is very little, if any, evidence that that is happening—if there is, the Government will look at it. It is not just a Treasury rule; it is the general view of this Government that we should allow local authorities to make judgments about how much money needs to be spent in different areas, although they do have legal duties to ensure that elections are well conducted and that the registration system works well.

As we roll out individual voter registration, I hope that we can tackle both sides of the coin. We can deal with the problem of people who are on the register but should not be—a number of Members mentioned that this morning—and, equally importantly, we can look at people who are eligible to vote but are not on the register. The resources issue is important, and I have written to every local authority chief executive about our data-matching pilots. I encourage Members to encourage their local authorities to participate. We hope to enable local authorities to use other public data sources to identify people who are eligible to vote but not on the register, or the other way around, so that they can target them and use limited resources more effectively, to ensure that the register is both accurate and complete. The funding for the pilots will be met from central Government. I encourage Members, particularly if they feel that there are problems in their areas, either with accuracy or completeness, to encourage their local authorities to participate. I hope that that reassures my hon. Friend the Member for Gillingham and Rainham (Rehman Chishti), who raised some of those issues.

I have dealt with some of the issues raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Withington. It is good to hear that the issue of the number of polling stations has been dealt with. He raised some very good points about the combination of elections, and about a differential franchise between the local, European and parliamentary franchises. We are alive to that issue, with the combined election and referendum that we hope to see next year, and one reason why we have been working very closely with the Electoral Commission and with those responsible for delivering elections is to ensure that there is clear guidance. In their planning for the referendum and the elections, the Electoral Commission and acting returning officers will take exactly that into account, to ensure that in parts of the country where they are not used to such a combination there is clear guidance and clear planning, to avoid those sorts of problems.

Finally, the issue of combination, which the hon. Member for Rhondda raised, is interesting, and we in the House need to think about that more widely. There is a view that no elections should be combined, but given that the Government are looking at more fixed terms, including a fixed term for this Parliament, and are also considering having more elections—for police commissioners for example—it would be difficult to have all those elections on separate days. It is worth thinking about the argument, “If you’re going to combine them you should go for it big time and make sure it’s well done,” and considering whether we effectively have a big democracy day in the same way as they do in the US, where everything is on the same day. It would be helpful if Members thought about that, and I am sure that we will get the opportunity to debate it in due course.

This has been a good debate. We have touched on a number of issues that are very important to Members, and I once again thank my hon. Friend the Member for Epping Forest for enabling us to have the debate. I look forward to debating with, or listening to, her this afternoon, when we continue consideration of the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill.

Cabinet Office

Mark Harper Excerpts

Wednesday 20th October 2010 Ministerial Corrections

[Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab)]

Let me say that the ward does not send Labour councillors to the borough; it elects Liberals, so no particular borough advantage was involved. However, the change respected the views of people about their communities. The real problem with the latter part of the Bill is that it does not do that. It specifically says that unitary authority boundaries—and all the authorities in Berkshire are unitary authorities—shall not be counted as local authority boundaries, so they are absolutely irrelevant. It also says that inconvenience to voters that comes out of the first boundary review shall be discounted by the Boundary Commission.

[Official Report, 6 September 2010, Vol. 515, c. 115.]

[Mr Harper]

I can assure the hon. Member for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart) that the reference in the Bill to “counties”, which she discussed, does include unitary authorities. So the Boundary Commission for England will be able to take into account the boundaries of all the unitary authorities in Berkshire as it draws up new constituency boundaries, subject to the issues relating to parity.

[Official Report, 6 September 2010, Vol. 515, c. 129.]

Letter of correction from Mark Harper:

An error has been identified in the response given to the hon. Member for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart) on Second Reading of the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill on 6 September 2010.

The correct response should have been: “the reference in the Bill to “counties” does include unitary authorities but not those of Berkshire.”

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Mark Harper Excerpts

Tuesday 19th October 2010 Commons Chamber

[Gavin Barwell]

In my experience of council elections, most people cast votes in accordance with the number of vacancies that there are, but some people do decide that they want to vote for only one or two candidates, perhaps because there are not three candidates on the ballot for whom they wish to vote, and that is their democratic right.

I believe the Government have chosen the right system. If it were ever used, it would give maximum choice to my constituents. Therefore, with respect, I say to my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch that his amendment is misplaced.

[The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark Harper)]

It is a great pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon Central (Gavin Barwell), whose remarks have been very supportive.

The amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) is very interesting, but I fear that it does not do what he seems to think it does. As he is an experienced Member, I say with some trepidation that his amendment is defective. He seemed to be explaining that, in effect, it delivers a supplementary vote system under which only the top two candidates are capable of winning the election and all the other candidates are eliminated, and therefore voters only express two preferences. That is not what his amendment does, however. It limits the number of preferences to be expressed to two, but that does not have the effect he was hoping for. Under his amendment, it would still be possible for a candidate who had come third and been eliminated to win the election if they were the recipient of many second preferences. I therefore fear that his amendment is technically defective, because it does not do what he clearly outlined he wished it to do. Given that, I ask my hon. Friend to withdraw it.

In choosing the form of AV that is proposed in the Bill, we were very clear that we wanted the optional preferential system as we did not want voters to be forced to vote for candidates they could not stomach. We thought it was not right to force voters to have to express a preference for a British National party candidate, for instance, when they think that the views that that candidate espouses are repugnant. However, we also thought that voters should be free to vote for just one candidate if they so wished. There should be maximum choice for the elector. That is why we chose the system that is in the Bill as the one to put to the electors, and I recommend it to the Committee.

[Mr Chope]

It appears that my hon. Friend will not address the following question: if my amendment does not achieve the purpose of introducing, for the sake of consistency, the London AV system, would he be in favour of an amendment that did achieve that being brought forward on Report? If not, can he answer this question: why does he believe we should have more than one AV system operating in this country—the London AV system plus the AV system he is introducing through the Bill?

[Mr Harper]

I will try not to stray too far outside the terms of this debate, and I will not get into a debate from the Dispatch Box on the merits of different electoral systems. The Government are proposing this referendum with the choice between first past the post and AV, and the Government are neutral on those two electoral systems. That is a matter for the yes and no campaigns, and for the Members campaigning in them. The Government will not express a preference from the Dispatch Box. I will, however, take my hon. Friend through both his argument and the reasons why we support putting to the voters the system proposed in the Bill.

If I have rightly understood my hon. Friend’s argument—I am sure he will correct me if I am wrong—he was putting forward the supplementary vote system used in London. That has two features. First, voters have only two choices: they can express only two preferences, which is also what his amendment proposes. Secondly, if no candidate gets over 50% of first preference votes—I think I am right in saying that no candidate has done so since the system was put in place—only the top two candidates stay in the race. All other candidates are eliminated, and the second preferences of those who voted for those eliminated candidates are redistributed, and we then discover which of the top two wins. That is the piece that my hon. Friend’s amendment does not insert into the Bill, however. My hon. Friend’s amendment could lead to a situation that I think he said he would find undesirable, in that it would still be perfectly possible for a candidate who had not finished in the top two to be the winner if they received a significant number of second preference votes from those who were first eliminated.

[Mr Chope]

rose—

[The Second Deputy Chairman]

Order. The Minister is addressing very clearly a number of complex points, and I realise that he is looking behind him because he wants to be as helpful as possible, but we need him to face forward so that Members in all parts of the Chamber can hear his comments.

[Mr Harper]

I am grateful, Ms Primarolo. I think my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch wanted to intervene.

[Mr Chope]

Can my hon. Friend answer clearly whether he believes the London system—which I have described as the London AV because that is how it was described by Professor Dunleavy—should be applied nationally and therefore should be put in the referendum, or does he believe the referendum choice should give people the chance to have both a supplementary AV system and his version of AV? If so, we could end up with two different forms of AV in this country’s electoral system.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Harper]

We have put a version of AV in clause 7, so that is clearly the system the Government believe the voters should have a choice on. They should choose between that system or the existing system of first past the post. We considered the London supplementary vote system, but we did not choose it because we wanted to give voters the maximum amount of choice. As my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon Central set out, we wanted to give voters the opportunity to select from the range of candidates instead of just giving them two choices.

[Mr Chope]

If the Minister is saying that the coalition Government are against the AV system used to elect the London Mayor, is he also saying that the coalition Government are minded to change that system to the AV system proposed in the Bill, if that system is supported in a referendum?

[Mr Harper]

That is not what I said, and my hon. Friend will know that we are discussing the system for electing Members to the House of Commons. The choice of systems that the coalition Government want to put before the electors in a referendum is the choice of either sticking with first past the post or using the alternative vote system that we have put forward. The reason we thought it important to put in the Bill the version of the alternative vote system that will come into effect if there is a yes vote in the referendum—the debate has brought this out—is that voters are clear about what they are voting for. It is also so that the two campaigns—the yes campaign and the no campaign—can look at the Bill and clearly explain to voters the system that they are voting for or against, and the consequences of that system. Voters can then make an informed choice.

[Austin Mitchell]

Perhaps the Minister can help me with a further point. It is good to see the Government being so nice and sensitive, in that they will not force people to vote for the whole slate; they will allow people to choose how many candidates they vote for—that is the essence of what he is saying, I think. But will that not produce unpredictable results, in that if someone votes for the whole slate—for a first, second, third, fourth and fifth preference, or whatever—their vote counts more heavily than that of someone who votes for just one or perhaps two candidates under the London system? Does that not open up the possibility of the donkey vote, which we all know applies in Australia, whereby less-informed voters simply list the candidates in first, second, third, fourth, fifth and sixth place according to where they are on the form? There is therefore a great premium on having a name beginning with A. For that reason, when the system comes in, I will change my name to A1 Austin. The donkey vote will count more than legitimately calculated and thought-out votes.

[Mr Harper]

It is difficult to start to get behind what is on ballot papers, and to analyse the amount of thought that voters put in to what they write on them. I am sure that all of us, when we have looked at the results of elections in our constituencies and council elections, have sometimes wondered what thought processes voters used in casting their votes. We have not always agreed with the result, but democracy is a wonderful thing; we give everyone who is over the age of 18 and who is eligible to vote the chance to do so. In a democracy, we have to take the results that we get and make the best of them, regardless of the amount of thought put into them. I will not try to psychoanalyse how voters will express their preferences and how much thought they put into them.

[Mrs Laing]

I appreciate that the Minister is trying to be very fair in how he and the Government draw up the system that might, if the referendum succeeds, come into force, but has he seen the carefully compiled scientific evidence that shows that alphabetical preferences do matter? The hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Austin Mitchell) is possibly joking—or perhaps not—about changing his name to A1 Austin. If that was his name on the ballot paper, and if I became Mrs Aardvark—nobody named Aardvark has so far asked me to marry them, but you never know—[Hon. Members: “Aah!”] Thank you. There is a distinct possibility that the alphabetical weighting would have an unfair, undemocratic effect on the result of the ballot.

[Mr Harper]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that point. I have seen the odd piece of analysis that says that even under the existing first-past-the-post system, it makes a small difference which end of the ballot paper one’s name is on. It really comes down to the point that I made to the hon. Member for Great Grimsby: I am not going to analyse how people reach their decisions. Some people reach them after careful, considered thought, and some people do not. We just have to live with the results of their decisions in a democracy.

[Austin Mitchell]

I shall not change my name back to Haddock, at any rate. My point was simply that if somebody uses all their preferences, their vote has a greater weight because it is redistributed more than that of someone who votes for only one or two candidates. Is that correct?

[Mr Harper]

Well, no. That is a common misconception. A person’s vote is counted only once at any one time, but clearly, if someone lists a number of preferences, it is more likely that the vote will still be in the count later in the process. It is up to the voter how many preferences they express, and the voter can take that into account when they cast their vote.

[Mr Lee Scott (Ilford North) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that if somebody chooses to vote for only one candidate, that is a matter for them? It is not for us to decide whether they should list five, six, seven or eight preferences. Whoever is voting, there will be anomalies; I do not know whether he agrees. Perhaps Aaron Aardvark will be first on the ballot paper—I will introduce him to my hon. Friend the Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing)—but none the less, I honestly think that the matter should be left to the people.

[Mr Harper]

My hon. Friend makes a very good point, and that is exactly why we chose the optional preferential system—so that voters could vote once if they wanted to, or for as many candidates as were available. We thought that that choice was better left to the voter.

[Chris Bryant]

rose—

[Mr Harper]

I will give way once more, to the Labour Front Bencher, and then I will make progress.

[Chris Bryant]

The Minister is absolutely right. In the present system, in multi-member wards in local government elections, if there are three seats to be filled, voters can put three crosses, if they want. Quite often, they do not use all three. That may be because they do not know that they are able to use all three, or it may be that they choose not to use all three—who knows? It is not for us to guess, but allowing voters a degree of freedom is a good idea.

[Mr Harper]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman.

I am conscious, Mr Gale, that the Chair will permit a stand part debate, so I will conclude my remarks on the amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch. As I say, I fear to point out to him that it is technically defective—it does not do what he intends it to do—so I request that he withdraw it and allow us to debate the clause as it is; we can then see whether the House is content to let the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Mr Chope]

This has been a useful debate, and I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Minister for what he said. I thank everybody who has participated; we have had some interesting insights. I am particularly grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Poole (Mr Syms) because he brought up important points about the need to give equal weight to votes and the way in which that principle is undermined by the principle of the alternative vote system.

It is semantics to say that people have only one vote, but some people’s votes may be counted more than once; that is the equivalent of saying that some people have several votes and some have only one, but if that is how the proponents of AV wish to try to campaign in the AV referendum, so be it.

I am grateful to the hon. Member for Middlesbrough (Sir Stuart Bell) for his intervention, and I notice that he has an amendment on the amendment paper that effectively seeks to introduce the French system. I must say that when he told the Committee and me that the noble Lord Plant of Highfield and the noble Lord Campbell-Savours supported my amendment, I immediately got rather cold feet about its wisdom.

The purpose of the amendment was to try to draw out a discussion and get from the Minister a justification—whether it is satisfactory is another matter—of why the AV system put forward in the referendum is different from the AV system in London for the election of the London Mayor.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Bryant]

The most important element of the clause is the fact that it turns an advisory referendum into an implementing referendum. In one sense, it is one of the most important clauses in the Bill. Indeed, if there is a yes vote, it will directly change the voting system and several elements of it. I have a series of questions that I hope the Minister will be able to answer.

First, subsection (1) of the clause, on page 5 and on the subject of how votes are to be cast, states:

“A voter votes by marking the ballot paper with…the number 1 opposite the name of the candidate who is the voter’s first preference (or, as the case may be, the only candidate for whom the voter wishes to vote)…if the voter wishes, the number 2 opposite”

and so on. In relation to the discussion we have just had, I wonder whether if somebody marked the ballot paper with a cross against their first preference, which would clearly be an indication that that was the only way that they were choosing to vote, that would not be counted as a valid vote.

[Mr Harper]

rose—

[Chris Bryant]

Perhaps the Minister will be able to respond when he replies to the debate, because I have a few other questions in this vein. It would be my feeling that that should be the case, although I am not sure whether in law it is necessary for us to put it on the face of the Bill. I could not see it anywhere else in the schedule that pertains to this measure and consequently I presume that at some point we might need to put it into the Bill through some form of amendment. Obviously, it is important that we get this right now, because once the Bill has gone through, it will be far more complicated after the referendum—if it is successful and there is a yes vote—for us to go back to it.

Secondly, on page 5 it also says that if one candidate has more votes than the others put together, that is the determining factor, rather than achieving 50% plus one of the total votes cast. Will the Minister clarify why we are using that process? I presume it is because at each subsequent stage one would not be able to guarantee that anybody was going to achieve more than the 50% plus one of the total number of votes cast, including those that were spoilt and all the rest of it. I would be grateful if the Minister could reply on that point.

--- Later in debate ---

[Iain Stewart]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, who clearly has a greater detailed knowledge of the Bill than me. My question is therefore answered and I shall resume my seat.

[Mr Harper]

Let me deal with the questions that I have been asked. The hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) was quite right to refer to paragraph 7 of schedule 6, which explains about the elimination of candidates. If they are equal number at the bottom and all the preferences are the same, they will be eliminated by lot. If the hon. Gentleman had read a little earlier in that schedule, he would have been able to answer his first question, which was about voters who have made a mark. As page 146 makes clear:

“A ballot paper on which the voter makes any mark which…is clearly intended to indicate a particular preference for a particular candidate, but…is not a number…shall be treated in the same way as if the appropriate number…had been marked instead.”

As long as the voter makes a clear choice, even if it is a smiley face, that will count.

[Austin Mitchell]

What if an elector makes two Xs; will that ballot be discarded?

[Mr Harper]

As in many of these issues, it is about whether there is a clear mark. If the elector marks the paper in such a way that it is not possible for the returning officer to work out what they intended, it clearly cannot count, so it comes down to whether they have expressed a clear preference. In the case that the hon. Member for Rhondda set out, it would be clear what they had done, so there would be no problem.

[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

The Minister talks about the voter expressing a clear preference. The practice in Northern Ireland under the single transferable vote has been that exactly—if a clear preference is shown by an X or a 1. However, new rule 37A(1)(a), in clause 7, says:

“A voter votes by marking the ballot paper with…the number 1 opposite the name of the candidate”,

so where does that flexibility come in if it is in legislation that the number 1 should be used?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Harper]

I hesitate to jump forward, Mr Gale, because we are going to debate schedule 6, which is linked to this clause. Schedule 6 clearly sets out what to do if the voter does not use numerical marking. It works in the same way as current legislation, which asks the voter to make a cross but provides that if they make some other mark on the ballot paper that shows a clear preference, the returning officer can count it. The example that we had yesterday, which I have seen, was that if someone puts a smiley face, but only one smiley face, which shows a clear intention, it can be counted.

[Chris Bryant]

The difficulty is with the way in which the Bill has been constructed to have some elements of the provisions in the schedule and some in the clause. What will happen if someone puts a cross against a name and puts a 1 against another name?

[Mr Harper]

We cannot put in a piece of legislation every single possible scenario; that is not done in existing legislation. We have set out what we want voters to do and we have made provision for some common issues. Ultimately, as with today’s elections, the returning officer has discretion to judge whether the voter’s intentions are clearly expressed. If they are, the returning officer can take them into account, but if they are not, he cannot. That is how existing legislation works.

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

It is quite clear which people have not had the benefit of National Union of Students’ training, as they are struggling with how AV, or even STV, would work. What estimation has the Minister given to the cost of documentation to help voters to understand, and from which budget would that material come?

[Mr Harper]

I am not entirely certain whether the hon. Gentleman wants to know about the information that is required to ensure that we have a good referendum campaign, so that when voters cast their vote they know what they are voting for, or whether he is asking about if there were a yes vote—

[Thomas Docherty]

indicated assent.

[Mr Harper]

So he wants to know what will happen if there were a yes vote and the system were brought in. Clearly, if that became the electoral system in this country, the Electoral Commission would, in the same way that it educates people about the existing system, explain how the system worked. There is provision in the legislation about which forms would be used.

This is a good opportunity to explain to the hon. Member for Rhondda something that I was going to clarify later. He is concerned about the order-making power in clause 7(4), but it is not, as he fears, a power that allows the Bill to be amended. Indeed, I would be uncomfortable with that; I am sure he knows my views about the powers of Parliament versus the Executive. If there were a yes vote in the referendum and the new voting system in clause 7 and schedule 6 were brought into effect, a number of consequential changes to other legislation would be required—for example, a number of the forms used in parliamentary elections would need to be amended—and this order-making power would allow the Minister to make those consequential changes. It would not allow the Minister to change the electoral system other than through what is in this clause and schedule 6 if brought in by the electorate.

[Thomas Docherty]

Before the Minister moves on, let me ask my last question again, as he began to answer it and then moved on. As we saw in Scotland with the elections and the STV system, there was a great deal of voter confusion and it was accepted after the event that not enough money had been spent beforehand on making sure that voters understood the system. Will he assure us that either his Department or another Government Department will provide sufficient funding so that every voter in the United Kingdom is given materials to explain how to fill in their ballot paper under the AV system?

[Mr Harper]

The hon. Gentleman is rather jumping ahead; we have not even passed the legislation for the referendum, let alone there having been a yes vote from the voters. He will know that the right body to carry out the education process he describes would be the Electoral Commission, which does not receive its money from the Government. It makes a request about the resources that it needs to the Speaker’s Committee which puts a motion before the House, which then decides what resources to give to the Commission, so it is a matter not for the Government but for the House to decide.

[Mr MacNeil]

It was not the STV system that created the difficulty in Scotland, but the way in which the lists were drafted for the first-past-the-post and additional member systems. The new STV system did not create as much confusion as is imagined; it was the lists for parliamentary voting that did so.

[Mr Harper]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that clarification, but he will forgive me if I do not want to get into what happened in Scotland a few years ago.

The final question that the hon. Member for Rhondda asked was why the Bill does not refer to a candidate getting 50% plus one of the votes. The drafting is designed to work not just in the first round but, as he suggested, in subsequent rounds. As came out in the debate on the amendment from my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope), although someone who wins under the alternative vote system has to have 50% of the votes that are still in the count, they do not necessarily have to have 50% plus one of the votes cast in the election, because if all voters do not express a preference, someone can get elected on a smaller share of the original vote.

It is important that I run briefly through the details of the clause, because, as the hon. Member for Rhondda has pointed out, if there is a yes vote next year, a Minister will have to lay an order before the House and the system we are debating will be the electoral system that is used in this country to elect Members to the House of Commons. It is therefore worth the Committee spending a little time considering what the rules would be.

[Chris Bryant]

Let me ask a brief question. If there were a by-election for a parliamentary seat next year, after a yes vote, which system would pertain?

[Mr Harper]

The first thing for me to do is draw the hon. Gentleman’s attention to the part of the Bill that talks about the order-making power. If there were a by-election, it would not be practical for different Members of the House to be elected by different electoral systems. The new system would come in at the general election so that every Member of the House was elected by the same electoral system. It would be invidious to do otherwise.

The clause sets out the key amendments to the parliamentary election rules, which are the conduct rules for parliamentary elections. It inserts two new rules—37A and 45A—which concern how votes are cast by voters, how votes are counted and how the winning candidate is elected. Further amendments are set out in schedule 6, which will be considered later. Of the range of voting systems, each has its advantages and disadvantages. As I have said, the Government are going to put before voters either the first-past-the-post system or this version of the alternative vote. In developing the provisions in the Bill, we have taken into account legislation and practices used elsewhere in the UK where preferences are used, as well as the experience of voting systems in other countries, such as Australia, where AV—albeit not the same version as we have proposed—is used in elections to the House of Representatives and in a number of state legislative assemblies. We have developed provisions that we think are best suited to the House of Commons, drawing on UK and international experience.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Bryant]

I think we have discovered another problem in the clause, have we not, in relation to what the Minister just said. He said that the Minister would not be bringing AV forward so that it affected any by-elections next year. However, clause 7 is the implementing element of the Bill and it hangs on clause 6, which says that the Minister must put all of this into operation by virtue of an order; and he is now saying that it is not stated anywhere in the Bill that that would happen at the next general election, rather than immediately. Let us say that there is a yes vote in May 2011 and there is a by-election at the end of May or in June or July, which is perfectly possible—or for that matter several by-elections—the Minister’s decision as to whether or not to bring in the order would almost certainly end up being challenged in the courts, because it is nowhere explicit in the Bill. So I am afraid that I do not find his answers sufficient. For that matter, I know he is relying on the word consequential in rule 45B(4), which states that the amendments have to be consequential. However, I know from our own time in government that the word consequential can be something of a weasel word, and some people try to slip larger things in than perhaps they should. I agreed with him when he used to condemn such matters.

[Mr Harper]

To return to my previous point, the hon. Gentleman should read clause 6 more closely. It states:

“The Minister must make an order bringing into force section 7, Schedule 6 and Part 1 of Schedule 7 (‘the alternative vote provisions’) if—

(a) more votes are cast in the referendum in favour of the answer ‘Yes’ than in favour of the answer ‘No’, and

(b) the draft of an Order in Council laid before Parliament under subsection (5A) of section 3 of the Parliamentary Constituencies Act…has been submitted to Her Majesty”.

In other words, this system will come into force, if there is a yes vote in the referendum, once the order has been brought in implementing the new electoral boundaries. If by-elections were to be held, they would be for constituencies with the old boundaries, not with the new ones, so I think I was accurate in the way I set out the position.

[Chris Bryant]

No, I do not think the Minister was, because he is relying on what happens in the rest of the Bill. Anyway, we are not convinced by the Minister’s presentation of his case on the clause, so we will be pressing the clause to a vote.

Question put, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

The Committee proceeded to a Division.

--- Later in debate ---

The alternative vote system: further amendments

[Mr Harper]

I beg to move amendment 198, page 147, line 18, leave out ‘45A(4) or (5) above in’ and insert ‘45A above—

(a) in’.

[The Temporary Chair (Mr Roger Gale)]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Government amendments 199 to 202.

I understand that there may be a consensus to hold a slightly broader debate about these Government amendments and to obviate the need for a stand part debate, and I am content with that process.

[Mr Harper]

These Government amendments—following our debate yesterday—genuinely fall into the technical category. Their purpose is to set out the procedure in the parliamentary election rules for determining which candidate is to be elected when only two candidates stand at an election under the alternative vote system and they receive the same number of first-preference votes. The amendments would provide for the returning officer to decide by lot which of the two candidates was to be elected.

Under the current first-past-the-post system, a tie between candidates is resolved by the returning officer drawing lots. Under the alternative vote system, the situation might arise whereby during the count either two or more candidates at a particular counting stage had the same number of votes or at the final counting round the two remaining candidates had the same number of votes. The provisions in paragraph 7 insert new rules 49 and 49A into the parliamentary election rules to deal with those circumstances. If the tie were at the first counting stage, on first-preference votes, lots would still have to be used to decide the outcome. If the tie occurred at a later counting stage, under the alternative vote system the use of preferences would allow the returning officer to refer to previous stages and use those preferences to make the decision.

The drafting of new rules 49 and 49A does not specifically cover the unlikely situation in which there are only two candidates at the outset who receive the same number of votes, but we thought it sensible to ensure that that possibility was clearly addressed to avoid any doubt. The Government have therefore tabled the amendments to ensure that rule 49A deals with the possibility of that situation and provides for the winner to be elected by drawing lots. I hope that Members are content with that.

We touched on this issue during our debate about clause 7, but it is worth saying that clause 7 deals with the two key aspects of the election under the alternative vote system—how votes are cast by voters and how they are counted. Schedule 6 sets out further amendments to the parliamentary election rules and other aspects of electoral law that would be required to hold a UK parliamentary election under the alternative vote. The changes reflect the fact that the election would be held under a preferential voting system. They touch on the ballot paper and guidance for voters; how we conduct recounts; how we decide whether the ballot papers are rejected; how we deal with candidates with the same number of votes—I have just set out our amendment on that; how the result is declared; a candidate’s deposit; and a number of other changes.

I am content for any member of the Committee to ask me questions on those measures, but I do not see anyone rising to their feet immediately. I urge Members to accept the Government’s amendments and to agree to the schedule.

[Chris Bryant]

In light of your earlier comments, Mr Gale, I hope that it is okay for me to stray into a debate about whether the schedule be agreed to.

The schedule makes a number of other very important amendments to the law that pertains to the election, and they, along with the other measures that we discussed in clause 7, will come into force when the Minister tables the order that follows a yes vote in the referendum. Some of the provisions are pretty straightforward. For instance, the notice that is normally exhibited on the ballot paper under the existing system says, “Vote for one candidate only”. Obviously, that would be thoroughly misleading if we were to adopt the alternative vote system, because it would point out precisely what the voters had not to do.

One relatively interesting point is that the guidance will make it clear:

“Do not use the same number more than once.’”

I presume that if a voter did use the same number more than once, that would invalidate a vote. I presume that if somebody voted 1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, that would invalidate the vote at the point that one reached the second preference, because one would not be able to determine the second preference, even if there had been some other strange means of adding to it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Bryant]

That is a good point, although I have not yet given up on the idea that the Government’s Fixed-term Parliaments Bill will end up with a five-year rather than a four-year parliamentary term, which would be more advisable and acceptable, I suspect, to this House and the other place. If there were to be a combination of simultaneous parliamentary elections in Scotland for this House and for the Scottish Parliament, and in Wales for this House and for the Assembly, operating under different electoral systems, both of which involved writing “1, 2, 3, 4, 5”, there would be capacity for confusion, and polling stations could be a rather complex area for voters to enter. Unfortunately, we are not able to have that provision in this Bill because the Government have decided to bring forward not a great reform Act but little tiddly bits of reform as they can be spatchcocked into Bills to appease both sides of the coalition.

Under paragraph 5, the system for recounts will be changed to allow for a recount to happen at any stage in the voting process. That is obviously a sensible measure. If, say, five candidates were standing and the person in fifth place is there by only two or three votes, they will want to have a recount to make sure that they really are the person who should be eliminated at that stage. I remember that when I stood in 1997 in High Wycombe—not traditionally a safe Labour seat; in fact, the Conservatives had a majority of 18,000—there was a recount in the ballot, and on a night when many Conservative seats fell, my friends thought, “Blimey, it looks as if Bryant has won High Wycombe.” In fact, I had not come anywhere near to winning; it was all about whether somebody else—the Green candidate, I think—had lost his deposit.

Under the schedule—it is also animadverted to in the clause that we have just debated—there is to be a public announcement at each stage of the process, so at each point where there is an elimination the returning officer gets everybody together to agree, “Yes, this is the person who is being eliminated, these are the votes that have been cast, these are the second preferences as they have been cast, this is the number of non-allocated ballots,” and so on. I am concerned about that, because there has been a growing tendency for the presumption of secrecy during the counting process to be completely ignored, with many broadcasters and journalists asking candidates on the night, in the middle of the count, to reveal what is happening in the process. That is a disturbing trend, particularly in relation to postal ballots. At some counts, the returning officer has decided not to validate the postal ballots separately but to put them in with all the others so that nobody can start doing what every political party does—the sampling process—and then say, “It was the postal ballots that won this election,” or otherwise. I would be grateful if the Minister could comment on that, particularly as it might apply in the process as it develops.

If we have public announcements at every stage, are we not letting the secrecy of the ballot run away with us? It has sometimes been difficult to get all the agents and candidates together for announcements, and it might take some considerable time to arrive at an election result if one had to go through the whole process at each stage. I understand, however, that according to the schedule there can also be a recount at the end of the process, as long as the final result has not yet been announced. If I am wrong about that, I am sure that the Minister will enlighten me.

I am glad to see this provision:

“A ballot paper on which a number is marked elsewhere than in a proper place shall not be deemed to be void for that reason alone.”

That mirrors provisions elsewhere in legislation. However, I wonder what improper place might be given as a reason why a vote might be declared void. In addition, the provision:

“A ballot paper on which the voter makes any mark which…is clearly intended to indicate a particular preference for a particular candidate, but…is not a number (or is a number written otherwise than as an arabic numeral), shall be treated in the same way as if the appropriate number (written as an arabic numeral) has been marked instead”,

is an important element of what we are guaranteeing. In the transition from the existing system to the new system, assuming that there is a yes vote, if a voter still has not quite understood the system, or, for that matter, is a conscientious objector to the new system and therefore wants to vote only with their first preference and chooses to do so with an X, a tick, or as the Minister frequently says—I am not sure if that is because he votes in this way—with a smiley face, then we should allow them to do so.

We are fully supportive of the Minister’s amendments, which seem to make sense in the way that he has described. I hope that he will be able to answer the questions that I have asked in the course of my comments. Otherwise, I see no reason why the schedule should not stand part of the Bill.

[Mr Harper]

The hon. Gentleman seems to be mostly concerned about publicity in relation to the declaration of results. Rule 45B in clause 7 requires the returning officer to “make publicly available” specified information, so that information will be public not only to those at the count—the agents and so forth—but to the media and everybody else. He refers to an increasing trend for people to set out the partial results of elections before the result is declared. He will know that that is an offence. I shall not name the person, but there was a parliamentary candidate—a Member of this House—who did that on Twitter and was suitably chastised. However, I do not think it is a widespread situation that people are publicly making declarations or suggestions about the results of general elections. If they were to do so, that would be an offence.

[Chris Bryant]

I am not sure that that is right. I know about the instance that the hon. Gentleman mentions. Because of the practice of sampling, which happens when returning officers verify the postal votes separately, I have frequently heard people say—indeed, I have heard it in this House—that a seat was won or lost solely by virtue of the postal votes. I would have thought that that was an offence.

[Mr Harper]

I am not going to get into what may or may not be an offence. The hon. Gentleman may well be right. I thought that he was citing the situation whereby people have referred to results before the result was declared, which is clearly more significant. Because of the nature of the alternative vote, one cannot just wait until the final result but must say what is going on at each stage. The Bill makes it clear that that will be publicly declared so that everybody knows what is going on.

The hon. Gentleman alluded to the recount rules in the schedule, which make it clear that at any stage

“a candidate or candidate’s election agent…may request the returning officer to have the votes re-counted”.

In the same way as under our current rules, that would be not a demand but a request that could be made. It would ultimately be up to the returning officer to grant it, unless they thought it unreasonable. Of course, the returning officer themselves could choose to have a recount if they thought there were problems with how the count had progressed.

I think those were the only issues that the hon. Gentleman raised, unless I missed any. I therefore hope that the amendments will be accepted.

Amendment 198 agreed to.

Amendments made: 199, page 147, line 19, at end insert—

‘(b) in the case of an election with only two candidates who receive an equal number of votes.’.

Amendment 200, page 147, line 20, at beginning insert ‘Where paragraph (1)(a) applies,’.

Amendment 201, page 147, line 26, leave out from ‘Where’ to second ‘the’ and insert

‘paragraph (1)(a) above applies but the tie is not resolved under paragraph (2) above, or where paragraph (1)(b) above applies,’.

Amendment 202, page 147, line 28, leave out ‘remaining’ and insert ‘two’.—(Mr Harper.)

Schedule 6, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 8

Reports of the Boundary Commissions

[Chris Bryant]

I beg to move amendment 127, page 6, leave out line 35 and insert—

‘(a) within twelve months of Part 2 of the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Act 2010 coming into force in accordance with section 16(2) thereof’.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Mark Harper Excerpts

Monday 18th October 2010 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark Harper)]

I beg to move amendment 261, page 14, line 8, at end insert—

‘Counting officers

1A (1) The counting officer for a voting area that is—

(a) a district in England,

(b) a county in England, or

(c) a London borough,

is the person who, by virtue of section 35 of the 1983 Act, is the returning officer for elections of councillors of the district, county or borough.

(2) The counting officer for the City of London voting area is the person who, by virtue of that section, is the returning officer for elections of councillors of the London borough of Westminster.

(3) The counting officer for the Isles of Scilly voting area is the person who, by virtue of that section, is the returning officer for elections to the Council of the Isles of Scilly.

(4) The counting officer for a voting area in Wales is the person who, by virtue of provision made under section 13(1)(a) of the Government of Wales Act 2006, is the returning officer for elections of members of the National Assembly for Wales for the constituency that forms the voting area.

(5) The counting officer for a voting area in Scotland is the person who, by virtue of provision made under section 12(1)(a) of the Scotland Act 1998, is the returning officer for elections of members of the Scottish Parliament for the constituency that forms the voting area.

(6) The counting officer for the Northern Ireland voting area is the Chief Electoral Officer for Northern Ireland.’.

[The Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Government amendments 262, 168, 169, 263, 265, 266 and 270.

Amendment 353, in schedule 2, page 49, line 15, at end insert—

‘(aa) certify as respects the votes cast in each parliamentary constituency within his area—

(i) the number of ballot papers counted by him in that parliamentary constituency; and

(ii) the number of votes cast in favour and against to the question asked in the referendum.’.

Government amendments 279, 280, 307, 309 to 322, 325 and 326.

[Mr Harper]

The Government have tabled a number of amendments relating to the referendum that are necessary to allow for the smooth running of the poll on 5 May. A number of the amendments—261 to 263, 270, 279, 280, 307, 309 to 322, 325 and 326—provide that all returning officers appointed for the local district council or borough elections in England, for Assembly elections in Wales, or for the parliamentary election in Scotland, are automatically designated as counting officers for the referendum. The provisions also appoint the chief counting officer for Northern Ireland as the counting officer in the referendum. That displaces for the referendum the standard position under the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000, which provides that the chief counting officer would need to appoint the individuals.

The key advantage of the approach that we are taking is that the returning officer and the counting officer will always be the same person, and that will provide returning officers with certainty that they will be the counting officers for the referendum. It will also ensure that the counting officers in the referendum have the necessary experience. The approach that we have taken to the appointment of counting officers is generally consistent with the practice for other statutory elections where legislation automatically deems, or provides for, the appointment of certain postholders in local authorities as returning officers for different elections—for example, local authority returning officers automatically become returning officers for the purposes of European parliamentary elections.

Government amendment 326 makes changes to the definition of the voting area for Scotland and Wales. The change ensures that in Scotland and Wales the referendum will be run on the same respective boundaries as the Scottish parliamentary and Welsh Assembly elections. No changes are required in respect of the current provisions in the Bill for England, which already allow for the referendum to be run on the same boundaries as the local government elections, which are scheduled to take place on 5 May.

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

Government amendment 261 refers, in paragraph 1A(2), to the counting officer for the City of London voting area being

“the person who, by virtue of that section—

section 35 of the Representation of the People Act 1983—

“is the returning officer for elections of councillors of the London borough of Westminster.”

How many people does the Minister think could, by virtue of this, vote in the City of London in the referendum?

[Mr Harper]

I am not entirely certain how the number of voters who can vote there has anything to do with the appointing of the counting officer. I am not certain that I follow the hon. Gentleman’s point.

[Chris Bryant]

It relates to the point that we will doubtless discuss later in relation to who is entitled to vote. As I understand it, paragraph 1A(2) refers only to peers, who would be able to vote in the referendum by virtue of their City of London voting right, as opposed to their residential voting right.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Harper]

We will talk about the franchise in due course. I do not think that the point is terribly sensible.

Government amendment 326 makes changes to the definition of the voting areas for Scotland and Wales. This change ensures that in Scotland and Wales the referendum will be run on the same respective boundaries as the Scottish parliamentary and Welsh Assembly elections. No changes are required in respect of the provisions for England, which already allow for the referendum to be run on the same boundaries as the local government elections.

Government amendment 262 provides that the local authorities within the voting areas must place the services of their officers at the disposal of the counting officer.

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

I seek clarification, further to the debate last week. Although I welcome the Government’s U-turn to let us have the boundaries in Scotland, will they make a single extra penny available to Scottish returning officers, as they have requested through their submission to the Scottish Affairs Committee, to pick up all the additional costs that will arise from the referendum?

[Mr Harper]

We have listened to what returning officers and electoral administrators have said, to ensure that these more sensible administrative arrangements are in place. That was the point of working with them during the summer. On costs, as the hon. Gentleman knows, by combining elections and holding them on the same day, there is a significant saving to the devolved Administrations, because much of the cost involved in running elections will be shared and split equally between central Government providing for the costs of the referendum and the devolved Administrations. It is considerably cheaper to hold a combined poll. I do not understand his point. The devolved Administrations will have fewer costs than would be the case if we did not combine the elections.

[Thomas Docherty]

To clarify, Tom Aitchison, who is the interim chief returning officer for Scotland, wrote to my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow South West (Mr Davidson) and the Scottish Affairs Committee stating that holding the referendum on the same day as the election would require extra ballot boxes, extra staff and perhaps larger rooms for a longer period. That, to my maths, is not a saving, but an extra cost.

[Mr Harper]

The costs specifically required to run the referendum are picked up by the Consolidated Fund and do not fall in any way on the local devolved authorities in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Some of their costs for running their own election—the cost of hiring polling stations, for example, and the cost of paying for staff—is split between the local Administrations and central Government from the Consolidated Fund, so the devolved Administrations make a saving, compared with running those elections on a stand-alone basis. I do not understand the point that the hon. Gentleman is trying to make.

[Chris Bryant]

That rather prejudges another set of amendments. I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman has yet tabled the 100 pages of amendments that he told some of us last week he would table today for debate next week. It prejudges also the statutory instruments which, as I understand it, the territorial officers will have to table and will be subject to votes in this place and in another place. The cost that may be required to issue, for example, two polling cards rather than one will be materially affected by those decisions. Is not the Minister getting his amendments in the wrong order?

[Mr Harper]

Not at all. We will table the combination amendments today, and, as the hon. Gentleman acknowledged, I wrote to him, to the Opposition Front-Bench team and to every Member who either spoke on Second Reading or who, at that point last week, had tabled an amendment—in other words, to those who were most interested. I wrote also to the leaders of parties in the devolved Assemblies and Parliaments to keep them informed about what we planned to do.

The assumption referred to is the one on which we have been working, and holding the referendum on the same day as the elections produces a saving throughout the United Kingdom of about £30 million, which will be shared between the Consolidated Fund and those devolved and local administrations.

[Chris Bryant]

I am sorry, but the Minister is completely wrong. He may have already decided how Parliament, in this place and at the other end of the building, will dispose of the Bill, but I have not seen any of the amendments to which he refers. We are, of course, deeply grateful for his writing to us all, but we have not seen the amendments. He even admits in his own letter that the amendments that he will table today are incorrect, because they will be attendant on other orders that will have to be laid in relation to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. I am afraid that, on this matter, the Minister is running ahead of himself.

[Mr Harper]

Mr Hoyle, I am sure that you do not want me to start debating new clauses and new schedules today which we will debate next Monday; I am sure that if I did so, you would put me straight. I have set out the basis on which we have said, since my right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister made his statement to the House, we will proceed, namely by combining the referendum with local and devolved elections, which will produce a significant saving. If Parliament were to choose to do something different, we would clearly look at that. I am setting out the Government’s proposals, which we have included in the Bill and will lay before the House for debate in Committee. I really think that the hon. Gentleman is making a meal of it.

[Chris Bryant]

But the Minister has not even made any provision in law. He has not presented to the House the provision in law for the combination of polls in Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland. I simply do not understand how we can debate whether the counting officers should be the same for the two polls when we have not been presented with the legislation that the Government promised would come along somewhere down the line. The Minister is treating the Committee with some disrespect.

[Mr Harper]

If I may say so, I think that the hon. Gentleman is trying to make debating points where there simply is none. He knows the proposals that we have set out, and appointing the counting officers has nothing to do, in essence, with the combination amendments, which we can debate next week. They will be tabled today, as I said in my letter. Members will therefore have a week to scrutinise them, and we can deal with that point next week.

[Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con)]

Will my hon. Friend be good enough to give me an assurance on an important question relating to thresholds? He mentioned the issue in response to my concerns during earlier proceedings of the Bill, and he knows very well that the threshold is commonly regarded by anyone who knows anything about referendums, including about the Scotland Act 1998, as absolutely crucial—as fundamental to the question of how such legislation should operate. Will he assure me that the splurge of amendments before us has nothing to do with depositing the threshold proposals, which I and my hon. Friends the Members for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing) and for Christchurch (Mr Chope) have put forward, at the bottom of the pile for discussion today? It looks highly likely that we will never reach them. Can my hon. Friend the Minister assure me that he is concerned to ensure that the threshold amendment is properly considered today?

[Mr Harper]

That is a very helpful intervention, because my hon. Friend will know that in the programme motion that I laid before the House last week we made provision for the House to sit until 11 o’clock this evening, which, notwithstanding Mr Speaker’s decision to allow an urgent question, means that the House will have more time today to debate those matters than it would have had if we had not tabled the motion. I am very keen to ensure that the House makes progress. That is not entirely in my hands—it depends on every Member ensuring that we can debate all these important matters—but I certainly want to reach that debate and will do my best from the Dispatch Box to ensure that we do.

Government amendment 262 mirrors the position for UK parliamentary and European elections and is necessary to ensure that counting officers and regional counting officers are suitably equipped to conduct the referendum poll.

Government amendment 270 provides that across the United Kingdom the polling stations allocated for the referendum will be the same as those allotted to electors for UK parliamentary elections. The amendment also provides that where special circumstances arise, the counting officer can allot different polling stations.

The Government have tabled amendments 168 and 169 at the request of the Electoral Commission. Paragraph 5 of the schedule gives the chief counting officer a power to direct regional counting officers and counting officers in the discharge of their functions at the referendum. The amendments clarify the extent of the power of direction and specify that it includes any planning and preparatory steps essential to the smooth running of the poll. That will enable the chief counting officer to require regional counting officers and counting officers to provide copies of plans, risk registers or other things that demonstrate that they are, or will be, discharging their functions in accordance with the chief counting officer’s directions. We believe that the amendments are necessary to enable the chief counting officer to prepare, plan and manage the poll effectively and to ensure compliance with any directions issued within the scope of her power.

Amendments 265 and 266 allow for the fees that are paid to counting officers and regional counting officers for delivering the referendum on the voting system to be reduced in circumstances where they fail to meet an adequate standard of performance.

[Mr Robert Syms (Poole) (Con)]

Is there any provision for a recount if the poll is very, very close? There have been several incidents across the world with hanging chads and so on. Have the Government thought about that possibility?

[Mr Harper]

My hon. Friend will have noted that we are going to debate recounts under amendments 153 and 154 to schedule 2. I am sure that if he waits for that point in the debate, we will be able to engage in some dialogue.

The approach that I have outlined will apply only to the fee paid for the performance of a counting officer’s duty relating to the referendum. It will not impact on the level of expenses that the same person can claim for carrying out their duties in their capacity as the returning officer for the election.

[Thomas Docherty]

Particularly after the events of last May, I welcome the provisions relating to electoral returning officers not doing their job properly, but has the Minister had specific discussions about what will count as being an inadequate performance? Given the terrible scenes that we saw in Sheffield and other cities, what view will the Electoral Commission take of the confusion that may be caused by having parliamentary elections and the referendum on the same day?

[Mr Harper]

The hon. Gentleman asks separate questions. The chief counting officer will decide about the level of performance of the counting officers and regional counting officers. The Electoral Commission has been working closely with the Government and with our officials, and it is confident that the referendum next year can be carried out in combination with the elections. We aim to continue to work with it to ensure that that remains the case through to 5 May next year.

[Chris Bryant]

I still do not quite understand what counts as counting officers not having performed their functions properly. What order of magnitude of not performing their functions properly would lead to their not being paid but would not disqualify the votes from that area?

[Mr Harper]

The level of payment would be a matter for the chief counting officer to determine; we would not expect Ministers or the Government to get involved in that process. The chief counting officer will be able to make the decision on payment in judging the performance of the counting officer, who will be working under her direction. That would not affect whether the votes counted in the same way as they did in a parliamentary election, even if there were the confusion that occurred this year at the close of polls, which did not affect the votes cast in those elections.

[Chris Bryant]

But if—let us say for the sake of argument—no polling cards were issued for the referendum in an area where there were other forms of election, or, indeed, no other forms of election, would that be a reason for not paying the counting officer? If the vote were tight, would it be a reason for invalidating the result in that area?

[Mr Harper]

The hon. Gentleman is trying to draw me into doing the chief counting officer’s job for her and into trespassing into election courts. It is not my role to do that, and the chief counting officer will make those determinations in the usual way. The Government consider that the amendment represents the best option for ensuring that regional counting officers and counting officers are accountable for their actions. Given the hon. Gentleman’s comments and those of the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty), I hope that that helps address some of the concerns that members of the public and, indeed, Members of Parliament expressed about the accountability of returning officers, following what happened at some polling stations, albeit limited numbers of them, on 6 May.

The amendments do not apply to the Chief Electoral Officer for Northern Ireland—the counting officer for the referendum—because he is a statutory office holder, who is already directly responsible to the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland for his conduct.

[Thomas Docherty]

Perhaps it might help the House of Lords when it considers the Bill if the Parliamentary Secretary asked the chief counting officer to provide written guidelines about exactly what would constitute not doing the job adequately.

[Mr Harper]

I am sure that their lordships do not require help from me or the chief counting officer to deliberate on the Bill. I would not dream of that. I am sure that the Electoral Commission will set out in due course the approach that it plans to take. It has already done that on some issues to do with the referendum, and I am sure that that will be helpful to Members.

Let me speak briefly about amendment 353, in the name of the right hon. Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband) and others. It would mean that, in addition to votes in the referendum in England being counted on local authority lines, as we propose, they would also need to be certified on parliamentary constituency lines. Given that 32 metropolitan boroughs, 52 unitary authorities and 192 second-tier districts in England have elections next year that involve around 31 million electors—79% of the total local government electors in England—the proposal would present significant additional administrative requirements for local areas and result in considerable extra effort and cost. Counting and issuing the results of the referendum on local authority lines, as we propose, makes administrative sense.

In Northern Ireland, counting and issuing the results will take place on Northern Ireland Assembly boundaries; in Scotland, on Scottish Parliament boundaries; and in Wales, on Welsh Assembly boundaries. That will be done because all devolved Administrations have elections to their respective bodies on 5 May. We think that that also makes administrative sense.

The Government see no benefit in requiring the counting officer to certify the results of the referendum in each parliamentary constituency. Any possible benefit would be outweighed by the extra demand on resources that the proposal would make. I would also be wary of inserting an extra layer of counting into the process, as I am sure that everyone wants a clean, clear result, which is calculated and communicated as quickly as possible.

For all those reasons, I urge hon. Members to support the Government amendments, and Opposition Members not to press theirs to a Division.

[Chris Bryant]

Broadly speaking, I do not disagree with the main thrust of the amendments that the Parliamentary Secretary has moved. However, I point out that we are debating 26 amendments in this group alone. The Parliamentary Secretary has already referred to the fact that he has written to hon. Members to say that he will table 100 pages of amendments today. I do not think that he has made them available to the Committee yet. They are necessary only because they provide for combining polls. Indeed, the majority of the amendments that we are currently discussing are necessary only because the Government had not spotted early enough that they needed to provide legislatively for the combination of polls in Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales and England, and separately and differently in each because the law governing each of the three devolved nations is different, and in England, the elections relating to local authorities must have separate rules, too.

The Parliamentary Secretary has already admitted in the letter that he sent to many of us that the amendments that he has tabled today depend on existing law in relation to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Each of those territorial Offices intends to change the law for the combination of polls in the next few weeks—it was supposed to happen in mid-October, but none of the statutory instruments has been tabled yet. I see that the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland is in his place—[Interruption.] I am sorry: the Minister for Northern Ireland is in his place. Perhaps he should be Secretary of State, as he is a very charming chap. Now that he is having a little conversation with me, perhaps he will enlighten us as to when the statutory instruments for Northern Ireland will be available. It appears that he cannot do so.

--- Later in debate ---

The Minister also suggested that others are in broad agreement. In fact, the Electoral Commission has said that it sees no reason why the votes could not be provided by constituency—

[Mr Harper]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Chris Bryant]

If I may finish my argument, I will then give way to the Minister.

In Wales, the results will be by Assembly constituency, which is the same as by parliamentary constituency. In Scotland, we will have them by Scottish parliamentary constituency, which is different.

[Chris Bryant]

In a moment, although I have promised to give way to the Minister. I am not sure which way age and beauty apply in this case, but I will give way to the Minister first, after I have finished my argument.

In England, we will have results by various electoral areas. For the sake of clarity in understanding the legitimacy of the vote, especially as this is not just an advisory but an implementing referendum—as laid out in the Bill—it would be better if we had equality across the United Kingdom, with the results announced in the same way in every constituency.

[Mr Harper]

If the hon. Gentleman is going to quote the Electoral Commission, he should quote it in full. It wanted to consider in more detail the implications of his amendment for the management of the count process and, in particular, the time required to conduct the count. It did say that it saw no insurmountable practical barriers to making the information available “in due course”, but it did not have information about the impact on the count process and the declaration of the result. Missing out the words “in due course” gave a misleading impression of the Electoral Commission’s views.

[Chris Bryant]

I am grateful for the Minister’s helpful intervention, because he made half the point I made myself.

I do not know what the total number of results will be, but let us say there will be 40 for Wales, and those in Scotland, Northern Ireland and so on. If, in a large number of those constituencies, there is a very narrow result, it will have a material effect on how people view the eventual result, particularly in relation to the differential turnout that might be achieved in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland—by virtue of the fact that there are other elections at the same time—compared with the turnout in England.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Bryant]

In which case, again, the hon. Gentleman ought to be striking out large parts of the Bill, because the Bill determines in large measure precisely what the job of the chief counting officer is. Indeed, other legislation similarly does so, because we have to have clarity about certain things. For instance, should it be possible in Wales and Scotland for there to be just one polling card for the referendum and the Assembly or parliamentary elections, or should it be a requirement that there be two? If we left the issue to people’s discretion and everybody decided to go for one, many people might say, “No, sorry, that undermines the referendum,” because we would not be making it clear that, in addition to the Assembly elections, which would get a lot of media attention in Wales, there was a referendum on the same day. That is why the hon. Gentleman’s Government will introduce amendments on the matter. His quarrel is therefore not with me; it is with the Minister, which I am sure will upset him enormously.

I am keen to provide as much clarity as possible at this stage, quite simply because I believe that the Government are proceeding in the wrong order. First and foremost, we should have the legislation for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, to make it clear whether there will be three sets of elections in Northern Ireland—again, we still do not know, despite the fact that it is not many months ago—[Interruption.] I am sorry, but I am being corrected by the Northern Ireland Minister. Would he like to—[Interruption.] No, he remains in his place. In relation to Wales and Scotland, the legislation has not been changed, but that is what should happen first, and then we should move forward with the amendments that have been adumbrated today.

I will be keen to press our amendment 353 to a Division. Even if hon. Members may support the Government, I very much hope that they will also support the amendment standing in my name and that of my right hon. Friends.

[Mr Harper]

There are one or two points of fact that are worth putting straight. My hon. Friend the Member for Grantham and Stamford (Nick Boles) was spot-on about the counting arrangements. As for the result of the referendum, the important thing is the overall number for the United Kingdom. On the counting arrangements, we listened to the electoral administrators and the Electoral Commission during the summer, and they made it clear that it made absolute sense to count on the same basis, given the other elections taking place. I do not see that that makes any difference whatever to the overall result of the election.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Bryant]

I am grateful; I had not noticed the written ministerial statement last week. Will the Minister clarify whether it is necessary to have legislation in order to be able to combine the polls in Northern Ireland?

[Mr Harper]

The combination amendment will provide for the combination of all the elections taking place next year.

Returning to the point about the instruments that will be laid, the amendments are clearly based on existing law. It would be bizarre to table amendments to this Bill in respect of legislation that has not yet been laid before Parliament. The amendments to this Bill are based on the law as it stands. As the hon. Gentleman knows, the territorial offices will lay orders, and if they change the legislation, we will make the appropriate changes and lay them before the Committee or the House.

[Chris Bryant]

Of course I fully understand that: amendments cannot be tabled if they depend on legislation that does not yet exist. It would be better to put the legislation in place first and then table the amendments to it. I seek the Minister’s assurance on one issue. It would be inappropriate if the amendments that follow after the territorial statutory instruments were not tabled in this House—in other words, if we were not to see them on Report. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will make that assurance to the Committee.

[Mr Harper]

Like the hon. Gentleman, I am very keen that on matters to do with elections this House should get to pronounce before the Bill goes to the other place. I believe that that is important; we will seek to achieve that.

[Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)]

I am looking at amendment 353, but it is not clear precisely which “parliamentary constituency” is referred to. Does it mean a Westminster parliamentary constituency or a Scottish parliamentary constituency? As Members would or should know, there is quite a difference in numbers—72 as opposed to 59—between the two. There is some ambiguity in the amendment; it is not at all clear.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Harper]

The hon. Gentleman makes a very good point. Fortunately, I am not responsible for the drafting of amendment 353; it is a matter for the Leader of the Opposition and his right hon. and hon. Friends, so they should answer questions about the amendment. For my part, I urge them to withdraw it. If they press it to a vote, I urge the Committee to vote against it. On this occasion—it does not happen on many occasions—I am at one with the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil).

[Chris Bryant]

For the sake of clarity, we are not saying that the count needs to be done by those constituencies; we are merely saying that the vote needs to be provided by parliamentary constituencies so that we can have full clarity across the whole of the land on the same basis. The wording is taken directly from the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000.

[Mr Harper]

Fortunately, neither I nor my hon. Friends were responsible for that legislation. It was introduced by the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues when they were in government. I am thus not going to defend the wording. I think that the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar is probably spot on in what he said.

[Mr MacNeil]

The intervention from the Opposition Front Bench has only added to my confusion. Does the amendment refer to both the Scottish and the Westminster parliamentary constituencies or neither—or is it “Please yourself and toss a coin”?

[Mr Harper]

Again, I think that the hon. Gentleman is quite right. The Government propose to have the counting done and the results declared in tandem with the other elections taking place that day. We believe that that is administratively sensible and in no way affects the legitimacy of the results, as my hon. Friend the Member for Grantham and Stamford has pointed out.

My final point in response to the hon. Member for Rhondda is that he was effectively inviting me to do the chief counting officer’s job for her. Of course there are rules laid down for the conduct of elections, but it is for her to judge whether the regional counting officers and others appointed to work for her are carrying out their responsibilities appropriately. It is not for me to micro-manage her judgment—her judgment is a matter for her. On that basis, I urge hon. Members to support the Government’s amendments and urge the hon. Member for Rhondda not to press amendment 353 to a Division.

Amendment 261 agreed to.

Amendment made: 262, page 14, line 28, leave out sub-paragraphs (3) to (5) and insert—

‘Assistance to counting officers etc

2A (1) A local authority whose area forms, or forms part of, a particular voting area must place the services of their officers at the disposal of—

(a) the counting officer for the voting area, and

(b) the Regional Counting Officer (if any) appointed for the region that includes the voting area,

for the purpose of assisting the officer in the discharge of his or her functions.

(2) In this paragraph “the local authority”—

(a) in the case of a voting area that is a district or county in England, or a London borough, means the council for that district, county or borough;

(b) in the case of the City of London voting area, means the Common Council of the City of London;

(c) in the case of the Isles of Scilly voting area, means the Council of the Isles of Scilly;

(d) in the case of a voting area in Wales, means the council of a county or county borough;

(e) in the case of a voting area in Scotland, means the council of a local government area.’.—(Mr Harper.)

[Alun Michael (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)]

I beg to move amendment 328, page 15, line 35, leave out ‘may’ and insert ‘must’.

--- Later in debate ---

[Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op)]

I should like to speak to amendments 333 to 340, which aim to correct a serious deficit in our democracy. People will have seen in the media some of the scenes from the recent general election, in which voters queued for hours to vote. That happened in my constituency, where there was a paucity of ballot papers, and some electors are known to have been denied access to their polling station. What is less well known, however, is that a staggering 67% of disabled people surveyed by the Polls Apart campaign reported experiencing barriers to their participation in the ballot. Sadly, this is an acute reflection of the voting experience of thousands of disabled voters at every election for every tier of government since emancipation. It also highlights a worrying lack of accountability, as there is at present no way for people to appeal when they are wrongly denied their vote, other than by mounting an expensive, onerous and bureaucratic legal challenge.

Many disabled people find it difficult physically to access a polling station, and that can be for a variety of reasons, including steps leading to the entrance, narrow doorways and corridors or a lack of a low-level polling booth. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Alun Michael) said, nearly half of all polling stations failed to display a large-print ballot paper, making it virtually impossible for visually impaired people to mark their papers independently and with privacy. Election officials regularly offer postal voting as a panacea for disabled people to participate in the ballot, but disabled people often want to vote in person, like everybody else, or at least to have the choice. The fact that people are disabled is no reason to deny them that opportunity.

It is also important to remember that for a significant minority, postal voting is completely inaccessible. Voters with visual and co-ordination impairments, people with learning difficulties and those with low literacy or English as a second language all find it difficult or impossible to vote independently and in secret using a postal vote. In May, 47% of disabled people surveyed reported difficulty in completing their postal vote. For voters with co-ordination impairments such as cerebral palsy and arthritis, voting by post can present significant barriers. Even if someone can mark their ballot paper without assistance, the need to tear down perforated lines, fold the ballot papers and put them into a series of envelopes can make voting by post difficult and frustrating. I wonder whether any hon. Members here today could imagine going through the postal ballot process if they were blind.

The Electoral Commission said in its briefing for this Committee stage that it intends to work its hardest to ensure that the AV referendum is as accessible as possible. Although I welcome that news, I and organisations such as Scope, the RNIB and Mencap will quite rightly point to the evidence that I just presented to the Committee and say that more must be done. The Representation of the People Act 2000 and the Electoral Administration Act 2006 make some provision to improve accessibility in general, local and European elections. The Electoral Commission has also produced some good guidance, yet the evidence presented by the Polls Apart campaign shows that this last general election excluded thousands of disabled voters. What right have we to exclude them from this referendum or from any ballot box now or in the future?

There are some simple steps that need to be taken. Existing statutory obligations and guidance must be met and an accountability mechanism for returning officers must be introduced if they fail to meet them. Returning officers need to work with disabled people and their organisations when designating and setting up polling stations. Local authorities should annually review the accessibility of polling stations and publish that information for the electorate to comment on. Following the example of the Northern Ireland review, returning officers should write to voters informing them of the inaccessibility of their polling station and give disabled people the right to choose which polling station to attend based on their access needs.

It is essential that this Bill makes provision to minimise the risk that changes to our voting system will impact negatively on disabled people’s right to participate in the electoral process. Without proper scrutiny to ensure that there are no barriers to participation, the proposed changes could make it more difficult for disabled people to exercise their fundamental right to vote.

I want this referendum to be the most inclusive ballot we have ever held in the UK. It should be the ballot that sets the benchmark and this referendum should ensure that every person who wants to is able to exercise their right to vote.

[Mr Harper]

I welcome the principles behind the amendments tabled by the right hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Alun Michael) and the hon. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana Berger). It is very important that everyone has an equal opportunity to cast their vote in the referendum, and I am glad that the amendments raise that important issue.

I want to reassure the Committee that there are significant provisions made throughout the Bill—indeed, later this afternoon we will consider some Government amendments that will give the Electoral Commission further powers to ensure that the forms used are accessible—to ensure that voting is fair for all, including disabled people. Ensuring that ballot papers and polling stations are accessible to all is already a duty that counting officers and returning officers have. For the purposes of the referendum the chief counting officer will also be able to give directions to counting officers on how they discharge those functions.

[Alun Michael]

Will the Minister comment on the central point of the change from “may” to “must”?

[Mr Harper]

If the right hon. Gentleman will allow me, I shall first set out what the Electoral Commission has said, some of which the hon. Lady has quoted, about how it intends to proceed. The chief counting officer can give directions to counting officers. Both the right hon. Gentleman and the hon. Lady have made the point that in previous elections the Electoral Commission has not done an adequate job. Interestingly, Scope’s Polls Apart report, which I had the opportunity of speaking to at the launch event earlier this year, said that the guidance that the Electoral Commission and the Association of Electoral Administrators produced on facilitating voting by disabled people was good but was not well implemented. The Electoral Commission does not have the power in elections to mandate the way in which returning officers behave but the chief counting officer will be able to issue directions to regional counting officers and counting officers. It is therefore worth considering the approach that the Electoral Commission plans to take.

The Commission believes it is important that the voting process is accessible to all electors. It says that it takes seriously its duty as a public body under equality legislation—including under the Disability Discrimination Acts and the Equality Act 2010, relevant parts of which will come into force next year—to ensure, among other things, that the information it provides is accessible and available in alternative formats. It has made it clear that the information it plans to send to every household will include information about voting systems, what will happen in the event of a yes or no outcome and how to take part in the referendum, including how to register and how to vote. That booklet will be available in a range of formats, including Braille, audio and large print.

The chief counting officer has said that she will issue guidance and directions to regional counting officers and counting officers regarding their duties in respect of accessibility and disabled voters under relevant equality and electoral legislation. She has also said that the Commission will continue to work with the excellent organisations that the right hon. Gentleman and hon. Lady mentioned, such as Mencap, the RNIB, Scope and other representative and advocacy organisations, to ensure that the referendum is managed and delivered in an appropriate way so that all electors have the chance to participate. That is a great reassurance because, unlike in elections, the chief counting officer for the referendum will be able to direct regional counting officers and counting officers on how to carry all that out.

My officials have discussed aspects of the Bill with Scope and they are very happy to do so with other organisations. In my previous life as the shadow Minister with responsibility for disabled people, I worked very closely with many organisations representing disabled people so I know what an excellent job they do. I also know from my experience as a constituency MP how much disabled people want to participate in elections not just by postal vote but, as the hon. Lady correctly said, by taking part in person. People with physical disabilities and people with learning disabilities are keen to express their views and we want to make sure that they can do so.

Having welcomed the amendments in principle, I am not convinced that they are the best way of achieving the aims behind them. The commission already has powers to do what the amendments propose in many cases and I do not think that turning those powers into obligations—this comes back to the point on which the right hon. Gentleman was pressing me about converting “may” into “must”—would add much to the Commission’s options. Indeed, it might be damaging to take away its discretion to decide when it is necessary to issue directions or guidance. I do not think that would be helpful. By setting out what the commission has said on this, I have shown that it takes these issues very seriously. There are already important legal obligations on the commission, as a public body, under disability discrimination legislation and the Equality Act and I am not sure that the extra obligations that the amendments would place on the commission would add clarity. If anything, they would be in danger of making the legal position more complex.

Let me address another issue that the right hon. Gentleman and the hon. Lady have both touched on about this poll in particular and elections in general. There may be changes that we can make to electoral law in general—the Government keep that under review—but I do not think that legislating specifically for one poll, even if there were things on which I agreed with the right hon. Gentleman, would be a sensible way of going about it.

On electoral registration, the right hon. Gentleman was right to point out that there is an issue to do with the number of people who are eligible to vote and are not on the electoral register. As he knows, during our September sittings I made a statement in the House about bringing forward individual registration, to deal not just with people who are on the register but should not be, but with the completeness of the electoral register. The Government think that completeness is as important as accuracy, and I have written to every local authority to urge their participation in data-matching pilots to try to identify voters who are not registered to vote and to look at how local authorities can best target their resources to get them on the electoral register.

The right hon. Gentleman made a tiny partisan point, when he said that he and his hon. Friends had been calling for change for many years. That may be the case and I have no doubt that the previous Government meant well, but in terms of outcomes they did not make a huge amount of progress in getting people on the electoral register. I hope he will support this Government in our efforts to do better.

To improve disabled people’s access to the democratic process, it is important that the Government continue to work with the organisations that the right hon. Gentleman, the hon. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree and others have mentioned. We shall keep the matter under review, but I do not think the amendments are the best way to improve access for the disabled to this poll, so I urge both Members to withdraw their amendments.

[Chris Bryant]

I warmly congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Alun Michael) and my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana Berger) on their amendments. There was a time when Parliament did not consider the rights of people with disabilities at all; those people and their rights were often ignored by society. We have moved a dramatic distance over the past 15 years in the rights of people with disability.

I am somewhat disappointed by the Minister’s words. When I was a Minister, an amendment might look perfectly sensible but some civil servant would come up with a reason why we could not possibly agree to it. The Whips would then say that we had to hold firm and that we could not possibly give way. The Minister may be right about some of the amendments, and it would be wrong to put in the Bill precise rules about whether the font size should be 12 point, 16 point or whatever. However, it would seem from what the Minister said that there would be no harm, in terms of their general principles, if the first two amendments tabled by my right hon. Friend were added to the Bill. They would apply only to this referendum, not to everything else.

The Minister made a point about the difference between the relationship in a normal election between the Electoral Commission and the returning officer, when the commission cannot direct, and the situation outlined in the Bill, when the chief counting officer can direct. That is all the more reason for us to provide in the Bill precise instructions that are in terms not of “may” but of “must”. I challenge the Minister to tell us what would be the harm in that amendment. I can see no harm that could possibly accrue, whereas the possible advantage could be significant to people with disabilities.

It is worth bearing in mind the statistics, which we have already heard, on the number of people who face significant accessibility barriers when voting at polling stations—67% of people with disabilities. We should recognise that there has been a tiny improvement on 2001 and 2005, but the previous Government were not enormously successful either, which is why we need to be more resolute in pursuing such issues.

The interesting figures in “Polls Apart” on voting by post are significant. Many people have presumed that now that people with disabilities can vote by post, the problem is solved. In actual fact, the great variation in how to cast a postal vote across the country—there are different ways of folding envelopes and of putting one envelope inside another—means that it is difficult to have a national campaign explaining how to use one’s postal vote. Many elderly people, quite apart from other people who might have disabilities, find it phenomenally difficult to vote by post.

At the general election, both in my constituency and when campaigning in other constituencies, I found that a lot of people had registered for a postal vote but found it difficult to understand precisely how they were meant to take it forward. Many of them would have preferred to have voted in a polling station, but if they are to be able to do so on an equal basis with anyone else in the land, explicit provision enabling them to do so needs to be made.

At the last election, there were fewer large ballot papers available than in 2005, which is a disgrace; I take no pleasure in saying that something that happened under the Labour Government was not an enormous success, but that is a fact. The difficulty with the argument that the Minister advances is that he is basically saying, “It’s all going in the right direction. We don’t need to put measures in the Bill, because it will all be provided for,” but the truth is that while many officials who have worked on the issue in previous years have made gains in some areas, in others they have moved backwards in relation to their obligations.

For instance, there are fewer polling stations in the Rhondda than there were in 2001. In the case of the polling station provided in Stanleytown, a small village in Tylorstown that is on a fairly steep hill, there was no public building in which to put it, and as the doors of all the houses are too narrow, no house could be used, so a portakabin was used. Unfortunately, halfway through the afternoon, the portakabin started sliding down the hill, which did not exactly make it more accessible than any other polling station.

There are serious problems, and I urge the Minister seriously to consider supporting, rather than opposing, the amendments that have been tabled.

[Mr Harper]

I have considered the amendments carefully, partly because of the role that I held before we entered government. I looked at the amendments myself, and at my advice from officials, and I genuinely do not think that the amendments add anything to the legal obligations that already fall on the Electoral Commission as a public body under the Disability Discrimination Act 1995 and the Equality Act 2010. Also, interestingly, the chief counting officer can make directions about whether the guidance, which Scope acknowledged was good, is put into effect. In response to the “Polls Apart” report, I have asked officials to look at all the recommendations and how we might act on them. The period after the referendum will be a good opportunity to look at the difference that the chief counting officer has been able to make with her direction, and to see whether we have proposals to take forward for elections more generally.

[Chris Bryant]

I am sorry, but that is more soft soap. I fully understand the Minister’s good intentions—he has advocated the causes that we are discussing many times—but I think that he has been seized by civil-servantitis. I fully understand the motivation behind the amendments of my right hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff South and Penarth and my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Wavertree, relating to the size of font and so on. I understand why the Minister might not want those provisions in the Bill, with regard to the referendum, but his argument falls at the first hurdle. He says that the chief counting officer will be able not just to provide guidance, but to direct. Surely it would make more sense for us to say not that the chief counting officer may make certain directions, but that she must do so, including

“directions about the discharge of their functions specifically in relation to voters with disabilities”.

I cannot understand for the life of me why the amendments could not be accepted. I can see no harm that would be done if they were. The Minister has not advanced any example of harm that would be done to the legislative process. If we are in any doubt as to whether we should move forward with the amendments, I would have thought that we should err on the side of caution and support those with disabilities. Once again, I urge the Minister to change his mind, and I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff South and Penarth and my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Wavertree, on their amendments.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Redwood]

I am grateful for that intervention, from which I learned that the no campaign would like one of these booklets. However, I rather prefer the lock on the door that my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North Essex is proposing, as I remain to be persuaded that such a booklet can be phrased in a way that everybody would find fair. The fairest thing to do is to put this lock on the door; then we will know that we have had a fair referendum because everybody will have consented to it.

If the Minister will accept amendment 247, that will be wonderful and my hon. Friends will rest content. If, as I suspect, he will not, will he at least say that he will warn the Electoral Commission not to try to write a definitive document, as it would just be torn to pieces?

[Mr Harper]

There are three amendments in the group, which seek to clarify the role of the Electoral Commission in providing information about the voting systems on which the public will be asked to vote. I ask hon. Members to support Government amendment 264, which clarifies the Electoral Commission’s role, making it clear that it can make appropriate information available in line with its stated intention to provide strictly factual or neutral information to voters on how the different systems work in practice.

Hon. Members will know that when the Electoral Commission was doing its research on the question, which we debated last week, one important conclusion highlighted the limited knowledge of voters about different voting systems. My hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin) raised the same point in his remarks. The report acknowledged that the referendum campaigns and media coverage will increase public understanding. The current public awareness role of the Electoral Commission, seen in paragraph 7 of schedule 1, is to provide information about the mechanics of the referendum—how it takes place and how to vote in it. My hon. Friend had a bit of fun with the language earlier, but I am sure we can agree that what is important is the practicalities rather than whether to vote yes or no. We are not going to table an amendment to mandate the answer, I am afraid to say. The Government are, of course, neutral on the result.

The current paragraph 7 of schedule 1 does not necessarily envisage giving factual information about the two voting systems and it is unclear whether the general awareness role in the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000 really enabled what was intended, which was to allow the commission to publish information about a voting system that is the subject of a future referendum. We wanted to make the position clear—hence Government amendment 264, so that the Electoral Commission can indeed make that information available.

[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

Does the provision in the Government amendment to

“take whatever steps they think appropriate to provide”

in respect of information and so forth include the sort of activity described by the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) as applying in the Irish Republic, including putting out rebuttals against claims made by different sides of the argument? If that were the case, we could certainly see the Electoral Commission being dragged into very dangerous political territory indeed.

[Mr Harper]

If the right hon. Gentleman would allow me to make further progress in my response to what I thought were the wise words of my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood), he would understand the terms of the advice that I would put to the Electoral Commission, which I suspect it would work out for itself, too. I suspect that it would not be tempted down that path. If the right hon. Gentleman does not think that I have answered his question, he is welcome to intervene again.

Amendment 136, moved by the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), deals with the Speaker’s Committee, but I am not at all convinced that that is the right body to be involved here. The Electoral Commission has already presented its plans for public awareness and costs to the Speaker’s Committee, supplying it with information, but given that the Speaker’s Committee is made up of politicians, I am not entirely certain that it is the most appropriate body. When it was said earlier that its views about this particular campaign were not clear, it reinforced the point that it might not be the right body to be involved. Given that two members of the Committee are Ministers, it is difficult to see whether they would be acting in their position as Ministers—the Deputy Prime Minister is an ex officio member, although the Government are neutral about the result of the referendum—or as protagonists. The two Ministers involved have their own views, so I fear that this might drag the Speaker’s Committee into the debate. Hon. Members have already warned of the dangers of bringing the Electoral Commission directly into the debate, so this provides an example of a similar danger.

[Mr Jenkin]

My hon. Friend is making a very strong argument for the Electoral Commission not to put out any information at all. If the Speaker’s Committee is fit to appoint the Electoral Commission, surely it is a fit body to hold it to account. Otherwise, to whom is the Electoral Commission accountable?

[Mr Harper]

If my hon. Friend waits until I have developed my remarks further, he might be a little happier.

If we are to allow the Electoral Commission to publish some information—I shall come on to the details later—we must allow it to be flexible, so putting in these extra hurdles is not sensible. The commission already produces lots of guidance—admittedly not perhaps in such charged circumstances—without any sort of approval, and it works fairly well.

Amendment 247 starts from the laudable assumption that we want to ensure that information provided to voters in the referendum—and most certainly if it is provided by the Electoral Commission—is neutral and fair. I fear, however, that it might have an unforeseen consequence by preventing the Electoral Commission from publishing information or giving the yes and no sides a veto in the 28 days before votes are cast. It might encourage the Electoral Commission to publish information earlier than that, which I do not think would be particularly helpful for voters—effectively stopping the publication of information during what voters would perceive as the campaign period. The hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) made a good point when he said that giving either player on the pitch an effective veto might be a recipe for grief and mischief.

I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North Essex has anticipated my next argument and tried to clear it out of the way. When asked about the neutrality of the Electoral Commission last week, he said that he had “the highest respect” for Jenny Watson and that

“because of her previous position, she will want to be seen to be as impartial as possible”.—[Official Report, 12 October 2010; Vol. 516, c. 204.]

I think that is correct.

I strongly suspect that when the commission considers what factual information it is going to publish in practice, it will come to the same conclusion as the Government. Before Second Reading, the Government published a short factsheet, which we placed in the Library. It was on the first-past-the-post system—for want of a better description—and the alternative vote. Although the two Ministers involved have a difference of opinion on the outcome of the referendum, we were very clear that the Government document needed to be neutral. The amount of information that can be produced on the two voting systems—the current one and the proposed new system—without being drawn into their merits, is very limited. That is why we ended up producing a factual and neutral document, not a very comprehensive one, which we have placed in the Library. I suspect that the Electoral Commission will reach the same conclusion. My right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham thus made a good point, and, as I say, I believe that the commission will reach the same conclusion.

That is not to say that there is no value in producing the information. Research done earlier into the question that should be asked revealed that a number of members of the public did not understand terms such as “House of Commons” and “Parliament”—even basic information like that. We might consider providing such information unnecessary, but it might be of great use to enable voters to make a decision. A great deal of information that is neutral and factual can help to get voters up to a level that we would take for granted, without trespassing on the merits of the arguments behind the two voting systems.

[Mr Jenkin]

Can we therefore put my hon. Friend’s neutrality to the test? Is it true that under the alternative vote system, no one can get elected without obtaining more than 50% of the votes?

[Mr Harper]

I will give a brief answer, as Mr Gale will tell me off if I stray too far from the amendments and we will debate this issue again when we get to clause 7. Someone can be elected. One has to have 50% of the votes remaining in the count at that stage. Under our system, which is optional preferential, voters do not have to express a preference. If a significant number do not express a preference for candidates, someone could get elected without having 50% of the votes cast in the first place, but they do have to have 50% of those remaining in the count. That is a very simple, straightforward, factual answer, and I am sure that my hon. Friend will probe me on it further when we debate clause 7 and the mechanics of the system that we plan to introduce.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Bryant]

This has been an interesting discussion. In a sense, at the back of this debate lies the fact that the vast majority of voters do not spend all their time worrying about voting systems. For that matter, they do not spend much of their time worrying about party politics or politics in any shape or form. In July, I knocked on a door to ask someone to vote Labour in an election. He said, “I am never, ever going to vote Labour again in my life because you just increased VAT.” When I said, “But we haven’t,” he replied, “You’re the Government aren’t you?” I said, “No, we’re not,” and he said, “Well, you were earlier this year.” I suppose that is a version of the argument that Conservatives and Liberal Democrats use all the time.

There is a serious point. Sometimes, when it comes to explaining voting systems, it is not so much that voters are not bright enough to understand, but simply that their eyes glaze over, because they think, “Why on earth are you bothering to talk to me about this?”—[Hon. Members: “Hear hear!”] Listen: I am one of those who wants to reform the system. As we lead up to the referendum, it will be difficult to provide the kind of information that most voters would admit they ought to have in their heads before they vote.

That could quite simply be because voters are not always interested, but the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood) was absolutely right in saying that it is very difficult to arrive at a truly impartial presentation of the facts. From a theological point of view, that is true of nearly everything. We always underestimate how much our subjective opinions influence how we interpret and present the facts, and even what we choose to call a fact as opposed to something else. Certainly, that is true of the BBC. If the referendum were on the European Union or the Lisbon treaty, there would be even more excitement, and equal levels of misunderstanding and distrust of the system. The other aspect is that many voters simply do not believe anything that any politician says, so why on earth would they believe what is presented in the referendum?

There are specific matters on which there is enormous potential for quarrel in the material that the Electoral Commission will present. Let us say that the commission wanted to describe in its literature the advantages of a first-past-the-post system—the right hon. Member for Wokingham said that it could be presented as the person who gets the most votes wins. I would guess that every single one of those advantages would be disputed by someone on the other side of the argument. How on earth can the commission possibly arrive at a set of advantages or disadvantages of either system in the information? Similarly, some would argue that the alternative vote could lead to more hung Parliaments. That is highly contentious, but I am sure that the hon. Member for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin) would argue that that is a proven fact. I urge caution regarding the quantity of information that the commission will provide.

Interestingly enough—it may not be interesting to hon. Members, but it is to me—I had lunch today with some Chilean Senators and Members of Parliament who have accompanied President Pinera on his visit. They wanted to know exactly what alternative vote system was being proposed. They are experienced politicians and have just changed their electoral system, so I thought that they would know what the alternative vote system was. In their heads, they were working on the assumption that there would be a second round of voting rather than an instant run-off, to use the phrase of the hon. Member for Harwich and North Essex, because if nobody gets 50% in the first round of Chilean presidential elections, there is a second round.

Notwithstanding that, the Electoral Commission has made it clear that there is a need for information. Some of its findings from earlier this year are enlightening. Its report states:

“The vast majority had no knowledge of AV and did not know how to vote under the system or how candidates would win a seat…A few people who were more interested and engaged had found out about AV when they heard about the referendum. Some people, particularly in Scotland and Northern Ireland, said they ‘had heard of’ the system but did not know how it worked. They assumed it to be the same as the proportional representation systems used in elections there.”

Of course, that makes the point that it is difficult to use a phrase such as, “The system used in parliamentary elections now,” because the system for Scottish parliamentary elections is not the same. We cannot simply refer to “the present system” because the system is different in Wales. For that matter, some have referred to the system for electing the London Mayor, but that is different again, because voters have only a second preference vote rather than a fully alternative vote.

There is also a problem in relation to the presentation of materials. Notwithstanding the remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan), the weathered eye—or perhaps the battered eye—of politicians can sometimes be useful. We are used to decrying politicians and saying how terrible they are. Everybody wants there to be no more politicians ever again, but we do add value in some regards.

[Mr Harper]

Just in case the hon. Gentleman is unaware, four former politicians were appointed to the Electoral Commission on 1 October specifically to improve the commission’s understanding of the conduct of politics. They are very experienced figures and represent major and minor parties, and I would have thought them perfectly capable of steering the commission out of any choppy waters into which it were so minded to sail.

[Chris Bryant]

I am aware that those people were appointed because I was in the Chamber when the Whip with the billiard cue came in and announced it. However, they are not all elected. Some are experienced in running elections—certainly Lord Kennedy of Southwark is—and some have stood for office, but none the less, the weathered eye of a sitting, elected politician would be quite useful.

For instance, let us say that the commission decides to use Labour red for everything relating to a yes vote and Conservative blue for everything relating to a no vote. That would be problematic. A politician would spot it instantly, but many professionals who run elections would not, because they are attuned to different things. I say to my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle that there is a specific role for the Speaker’s Committee—I can see one member of that committee in the Chamber.

Perhaps the hon. Member for Corby (Ms Bagshawe) is used to editors editing her copy, or perhaps it goes straight through and clean into her books, but I do not think that members of the Speaker’s Committee on the Electoral Commission will want to interfere unnecessarily. They might just bring another valuable perspective to any material that is produced. There is no reason why that should lead to interminable delay, and I think it would be good if members and ex officio members of the committee were to bring their experience to deliberations.

The Minister pointed out that two committee members are also members of the Government, and he is right: there is the Minister for Housing and Local Government who is a Conservative, and there is the Deputy Prime Minister who, at least for the moment, is a Liberal Democrat. Of course, in their personal capacities the two of them will reach different conclusions coming from different sides of the argument, but in their ministerial capacities, they will agree on neutrality. Therefore, in making his observation the Minister adds to my argument, rather than takes away from it.

Finally, I have a bone to pick with the right hon. Member for Wokingham. He referred to the Minister speaking from his ex cathedra pulpit, and I just point out that one is either speaking ex cathedra or from a pulpit. The cathedra is the throne on which the bishop or Pope sits; it is certainly not a pulpit.

I will press my amendment to a Division, although I very much hope that the Minister will agree to it, notwithstanding his earlier complaints.

Question put, That the amendment be made.

The Committee proceeded to a Division.

--- Later in debate ---

[Natascha Engel]

But they are so worth it!

[Mr Harper]

If the Government get their way, the referendum will take place on 5 May 2011, so based on the logic of her case surely the hon. Lady should be arguing that people who are 14 next year, who will be entitled to vote at the general election on 7 May 2015, should also be enfranchised. That is the logical conclusion of her argument, so why is that not the amendment she has tabled?

[Natascha Engel]

I tabled the amendment because the campaign to lower the voting age to 16 is well established. The argument we are making is that 16-year-olds are perfectly able to take responsibility and to have a well thought-out and well argued opinion. We need to focus on that. Personally, I would have no problem with allowing 14-year-olds to have a say, but that is not what we are arguing for today, although I know plenty of 14-year-olds who are very capable of making responsible decisions. The reason we have a limit at 16 is the same as the reason for having a limit at 18—it is arbitrary. I argue that we need to lower the age, because people can take responsibility. As has been said, 16-year-olds are allowed to go to war, and with the consent of their parents they are allowed to get married. They can do any number of things. Although the limit may be arbitrary, the campaign is well established and we need to draw the line somewhere. At present, it is being drawn at 18, but I would like it to be 16.

[Natascha Engel]

That is absolutely spot-on. I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention.

[Mr Harper]

I shall limit myself to this point, or we shall be in danger of not moving on, but I want to nail it because it is driving me round the bend. The hon. Lady correctly said that 16-year-olds could not join the armed forces without their parents’ permission, but she also knows that we do not deploy to conflict people aged under 18. If she makes such arguments, she should at least make sure that they are factually accurate.

--- Later in debate ---

[Graham Jones]

Given that the hon. Gentleman is now encouraging his constituents aged 17 and under to vote against the Conservative party, I hope that he has more children.

It is claimed that young people do not have the experience and knowledge to vote. When my grandmother was 95, she had serious Alzheimer’s, yet she still held the right to vote. Nearly all young people are far more informed than my grandma was in her later years, but we never thought about taking the vote from her. Saying that young people are not experienced or knowledgeable enough is not a strong enough argument. It does not reflect real life or how people experience it. Indeed, I believe that 16 and 17-year-olds are often in a better position to make an informed judgment. There is no principled or consistent argument that justifies denying the vote to young people.

[Mr Harper]

Many issues have been raised and many amendments have been tabled. I shall try to deal with them briefly—

[Mr Brady]

At a canter.

[Mr Harper]

Indeed.

The amendments would amend clause 2, which sets out the franchise for voting in the referendum. It might be helpful to tell hon. Members who have tabled amendments that, with one exception about peers, which I shall outline, we have simply applied the franchise for Westminster elections in the Bill. We thought that that was appropriate. We have not used the one-off referendum as an opportunity for experimenting with the franchise.

Amendments 59 and 60 would prevent Commonwealth and Irish citizens from voting. Given that my hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale West (Mr Brady) said that he was not only an enormous but an eternal optimist, I hope that he can hold that optimism in reserve for a future date, when we might revert to those matters.

To explain why we are here, my hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Mr Shepherd), who is no longer in his place, put his finger on it when he mentioned the history of our country and how citizenship came about in the first place. I do not often agree with the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), but he made a sensible point when he referred to our history. I also agreed with him when, in speaking about the Commonwealth, he drew attention to the fact that around 10% of our Army is made up of people who would not otherwise be eligible to vote in this country. They serve our country well, and several have been prepared to pay the ultimate price in that service. The point was sensible and well made.

We wanted to stick with the current franchise for the referendum. My hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale West made a wider point, to which it is worth the Committee’s reverting. When the House has considered other Bills to reform the electoral arrangements, it has always taken the view that it wanted to stick with the existing position, enabling some qualifying Commonwealth and Irish citizens to vote. Of course, it is open to the House, if asked to consider the matter in future, to disagree and try to make a change. I will think some more about the matter, and consider whether it is appropriate for the Government to make such proposals in future. However, I ask my hon. Friend to stick with the existing, tested franchise for the referendum. Indeed, he said in his opening remarks that he did not want us to legislate in haste. All the proposals to fiddle with the franchise specifically for the referendum constitute legislating in haste. There are perfectly sensible arguments for doing as my hon. Friend suggests and for making other franchise changes, but I think that it is best to stick with what we use for our Westminster elections for the referendum.

[Mr Geoffrey Cox (Torridge and West Devon) (Con)]

Is not the point about the referendum that it will change the rules of the constitutional landscape for ever? Now is therefore the time to focus our attention on who should exercise the franchise on that critical question, which will affect how Members are elected to the House for the next 100 years or more. It is different from an ordinary election.

[Mr Harper]

Given our tradition of parliamentary sovereignty, my hon. Friend does not set out the position accurately. If we have a referendum next year, as I hope we do, and if the people of the country decide to change the electoral system, as I hope they do not, it is open to a future Parliament to hold another referendum. The referendum will not change the position for ever—nothing is for ever in a parliamentary democracy. I do not buy the argument that, just because we are having the referendum, we are required to change the franchise over and above the one that we use for parliamentary elections. Choosing the Government of the country is a significant matter. Indeed, many—perhaps more on the Government side of the Committee—would argue that Governments who are elected can make significant changes. Governments took us into the European Union and signed treaties that bind us unless we decide specifically to opt out of them. We might not have been entirely happy that Governments did that, but we did not challenge their right to do so. The Government’s position is that we have stuck with the franchise. However, I have listened carefully to what my hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale West said, and this is an issue worth revisiting, but this Bill is not the right place to make the change.

[Mr Cox]

Is my hon. Friend seriously suggesting that if the country opts to change the voting system to the alternative vote—I do not think that it will and I fervently hope that it will not—a future Parliament could never turn the clock back and restore first past the post?

[Mr Harper]

Of course it could. If the voting system were changed, the public might reconsider and want to change, either back to the old system or to another one. That has been the experience of other countries that have reformed their electoral systems. It is perfectly sensible to say that that could happen, and my hon. Friend is not really setting out an argument for why we should change in this case.

[Mr Brady]

The Minister is trying to be helpful, and I get the clear message that there may be more legislation in the not too distant future, at which point this issue may be revisited. Can he help me a little further by saying whether the Government believe, as a matter of principle, that the franchise should be adjusted to have citizenship as its basis?

[Mr Harper]

I do not think that my hon. Friend would expect me to set out that position now. As I said, referring to what my hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills said, we have arrived at this position because of our history and traditions. Parliament can, in the future, consider the extent to which it wishes to recognise that history and those traditions—how we have got where we are and how this country was created—or whether it wishes to adopt a pure system such as those adopted by countries without that long history. The House can debate and decide that issue at a future date. The Government do not wish to make that change now, but I will listen to what my hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale West has said, and I will think on it some more.

[Mr Brady]

The only argument that my hon. Friend has advanced against changing the franchise for the referendum is that it would be legislating in haste and we should give the issue deeper consideration before taking that action. He has not actually argued against the point of principle, and I hope that he will express a view on whether the franchise in elections in this country should be predominantly a matter for citizens, as indeed on 16 September he agreed was perfectly normal and was the case almost everywhere else in the world.

[Mr Harper]

I did say that it was perfectly normal in other countries, but my hon. Friend knows that this country is special—[Interruption.] It has a unique history and we are where we are because of the experiences that we have had in the past. As Conservatives, we should not lightly throw off those historical resonances—

[Chris Bryant]

I hate to say it, but I agree with that last sentence. In offering solace to Conservative Back Benchers, the Minister seemed to suggest that he is actively considering whether Commonwealth citizens should be removed from the franchise for parliamentary elections. Is that true?

[Mr Harper]

I chose my words carefully and I said that I would think about it. There may be an opportunity in the future, when the House considers a wider Bill, when it would be appropriate to debate it. Even if the Government did not bring forward such proposals, hon. Members would table amendments—as they have for this Bill—and give us the opportunity to debate the matter.

[Chris Bryant]

That is clear, and I am grateful to the Minister. Can he answer the question that I asked earlier about Fiji?

[Mr Harper]

Fiji has been suspended from the Commonwealth, and the usual practice is that in such cases we do not take steps to remove the right of qualifying citizens from those countries to vote in our elections.

It is worth saying that the right of Commonwealth citizens to register to vote is restricted in electoral law to qualifying Commonwealth citizens—those who do not require leave to enter or remain under the immigration legislation, or those who do require leave but have it. I say that because my hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills suggested that in some constituencies significant numbers of illegal immigrants had managed to get themselves on to the electoral register and that there was no duty on electoral registration officers to do anything about that. But that is not the case. Electoral registration officers have a duty to maintain an accurate and complete register and to inquire whether people are eligible to be—

[Mr Shepherd]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Mr Harper]

I see that my hon. Friend is back in his place.

[Mr Shepherd]

Of course, there is no money. The state of the register is as I reported in my speech. There are many people in that situation, and he cannot disprove that—any more than I can prove it—because no efforts are made to identify whether a Commonwealth citizen who applies to go on the register is here lawfully.

[Mr Harper]

I would say two things to my hon. Friend. First, money is provided to local authorities as part of their normal funding, and it is a matter for the local authority to decide on priorities. In his own case, if he is dissatisfied with how the electoral registration officer is conducting himself, I suggest that he speaks to the chief executive of his local authority and makes those strong representations.

Secondly, given our proposals to move to individual voter registration in 2014, we will be improving the registration system and making it much more difficult for people who are not entitled to be on the register to be on it. I have written to local authority chief executives to ask them to take part in data-matching pilots in which we can, first, identify those who are more likely not to be on the register who should be, enabling authorities to target their resources on them and, secondly, target voters who should not be on the electoral register, to enable authorities to ensure that the register is not just complete but accurate. So there are two avenues there that my hon. Friend can pursue.

I want to address the argument made by the hon. Member for North East Derbyshire (Natascha Engel), whose amendment 332 would extend the franchise to 16 and 17-year-olds. As I said, our approach has been that the people voting in the referendum should be those entitled to vote in a Westminster election. She, perfectly reasonably, is continuing her long-running campaign, supported by a number of hon. Members, to lower the voting age. As I said to my hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale West, I do not think that experimenting with the franchise in this Bill is the right way to go.

Many hon. Members will know my views on lowering the voting age, but—on a note of agreement—my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol West (Stephen Williams) is right. He is a firm advocate of lowering the voting age in elections in general, but he acknowledges that trying to do that in this Bill, for one specific referendum, is not the right thing to do.

[Natascha Engel]

I do not want to sound rude, but the Minister’s general views on lowering the age are neither here nor there. My amendment concerns this one-off referendum. It seeks to change how the voting system will work at the next general election, when those who are 16 at the time of the referendum will be 18. This is a completely different situation from normal elections.

[Mr Harper]

As I said in my intervention on the hon. Lady, she has not thought through her argument. She has tried to make two different arguments for her amendment, and they do not really make sense. Her argument that people who will be voting at the next general election, on 7 May 2015, should have a say in the referendum would imply logically that people who are 14 next year—four years before the election—should be able to vote in the referendum too. Even she, with her campaign to lower the voting age to 16, has not proposed that, because she knows perfectly well that a proposal to allow 14-year-olds to vote would get laughed out of court, even by those who propose lowering the voting age to 16.

The hon. Lady’s argument does not stack up or make any sense. If we take her argument to its logical conclusion—picking up on the point made about a new voting system kicking in in perpetuity—we should enfranchise everybody alive today, because at some point in the future they will be voting in a general election based on the voting system bought in by the referendum next year. That simply does not make any sense. So we have adopted the usual position in this country, which is that to be able to vote in an election, one must be an adult, which in our system means being 18.

[Chris Bryant]

As far as I can see, the Minister’s argument is that we should use the franchise used for parliamentary elections, but he makes one enormous exception, which is for the peers. [Interruption.] It is not a small exception; it is a large exception. These are the people who are least experienced in dealing with parliamentary elections. I say that not because I have any distaste for peers—some of my best friends are peers.

[Chris Bryant]

Indeed. Nevertheless, what is the logic behind the Minister’s argument for specifically exempting the peers?

[Mr Harper]

Let me deal with that point, and then I will finish off on the general point. Very simply, we considered the franchise, but we made one exception because, the usual argument for peers being excluded from voting for Members of this House is that they are Members of this Parliament. However, we did not think that that restriction made sense in a vote on the voting system, and we therefore decided to make that change. That is the only exception that we have made, and it is a very limited change—I think it unlikely that the result of the referendum will be swung by Members of the upper House.

Let me conclude on the point that the hon. Member for North East Derbyshire raised. Her argument is a perfectly reasonable one, albeit one that I happen to disagree with, but just as I said to my hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale West, this is not the place to make it. If we were having a debate about voting in general, she would be perfectly entitled to put that view before the Committee and to test the Committee’s opinion. However, for the referendum in question, it does not seem sensible to do that. Her argument—that people who will be affected by the election in 2015 should be entitled to vote in the referendum on the voting system—simply does not make sense, because it would mean giving 14-year-olds the vote in that referendum.

[Natascha Engel]

I want briefly to correct the Minister on that point. That was not the argument I was making; the only argument I was making was that 16-year-olds on the day of the referendum will be 18 on the day of the election.

[Mr Harper]

But my point is that 14-year-olds on the day of the referendum will be 18 on the date of the next general election, so that argument simply does not make sense.

Also, the hon. Lady may not like this—I am happy about it, although she might not be—but I should point out that under the coalition Government’s proposals, referendums are likely to be more frequent rather than less, as we have proposed bringing them forward under our referendum lock. They might be referendums on European matters, local referendums or mayoral referendums. Therefore, those young people who are not yet 18 who miss out on voting in the referendum next year will find that there will be many referendums in the future on which they can vote, once they are 18.

My final point to the hon. Lady is that this issue is not a small one, because if all 16-year-olds on the date of the referendum were able to vote, that would mean electoral registration officers having to register those who are 15, which is a significant change to the way that they collect data. The hon. Lady said that the change would not cause much trouble, but it would actually cause a significant amount of trouble. I therefore hope that she will not press her amendment 332 to a vote, but if she does, I urge hon. Members on both sides of the Committee—and particularly those on the Government side—to vote against it. I also hope that those who are otherwise in favour of lowering the voting age can be happy that this is not the place to do so, because as my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol West said, he can bring forward a private Member’s Bill on the issue, which would be the place to have that debate. I urge hon. Members not to press their amendments to a vote.

[Mr Brady]

I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. He is being generous with his time, but he has not yet dealt with amendment 61, and I hope that he is about to do so.

[Mr Harper]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend: I had indeed omitted to talk about his amendment 61, about overseas voters. He will know that at the moment there is a 15-year time limit, to which he drew attention, for British citizens who live overseas. The Government are considering whether to bring proposals before the House in due course. Again, however, I would say to him that this Bill, on the referendum, is not the place to explore that issue. However, he is an eternal optimist, and he might not have to wait eternally before he can debate the matter in the House—perhaps in the near future. I hope that that will satisfy him and enable him, in all good conscience, not to press his amendments to a vote.

[The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dawn Primarolo)]

Natascha Engel, do you wish to respond to the debate?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Harper]

On a point of order, Ms Primarolo. I gave a commitment on Second Reading that I and other Front Benchers would do what we could to ensure that the Committee had an opportunity either to debate or to vote on the significant issues that arose. Given the time, the Committee will wish to know that in the event of our not reaching clause 6 in today’s debate, I intend to allow it to vote, even if that is, sadly, without debate, on the lead amendment in the group selected for debate in relation to that clause, which proposes turnout thresholds for the referendum to be valid. With the permission of the Members concerned, a member of the Government will therefore move amendment 3 so that it can be put to the vote, thereby fulfilling the commitment that I made on Second Reading.

[The Second Deputy Chairman]

I am sure that the Minister knows that, strictly speaking, that is not a point of order. He has given a point of information to the Committee on how he intends to conduct the business this evening, and I am sure that all Members have taken note of it. I do not wish to have a debate on how the Government might handle this, and I should like to return to the debate because there is still a great deal to cover.

Clause 3 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule 2

Rules for conduct of the referendum

[Mr Harper]

I beg to move amendment 267, page 26, line 5, leave out ‘16th’ and insert ‘15th’.

[The Second Deputy Chairman]

With this it will be convenient to discuss Government amendments 170, 269, 271 to 273, 171 to 173, 177 to 181, 306 and 161.

[Mr Harper]

The amendments make minor and technical drafting changes to the Bill. Amendments 267 and 269 change the deadline for issuing the notice of poll in the rules for the conduct of the referendum from 16 to 15 days before the poll. The change is necessary to ensure that the combination provisions, which we tabled earlier today, work in the right way.

The rest of the amendments contain a series of miscellaneous minor technical amendments and corrections. I am happy to discuss them further if Members are interested in the detail. I commend them to the Committee.

[Chris Bryant]

I briefly note the Minister’s point of information earlier. However, there are several amendments on the Order Paper and if he thinks that we shall not reach them because he has not allowed enough time, that is his problem. To force a vote, rather than hold a debate, is a disgrace.

I am always profoundly disturbed when I see the words “minor and technical amendments”, because all too often far too much can be hidden away in the detail. The Minister skirted over the change of the notice of poll from 16 to 15 days. As he rightly says, that is because of the combination of polls, but there is no need to have a combination of polls next year. As we have rehearsed many times already today, and on our previous day in Committee, we do not need to hold the elections on the same day, in which case 16 days could be provided for the notice of poll, which would be more sensible. I should be grateful if the Minister explained why he thinks it is better to have 15 rather than 16 days’ notice of poll, in particular because it is more difficult for overseas voters to know when an election is happening. Does he not think that if the elections were on different days, they would have more time? Why is it important to have just 15 days?

Amendment 171 would remove sub-paragraph (4) of paragraph 21, which relates to the keeping of order in polling stations. The paragraph states:

“It is the presiding officer’s duty to keep order at the officer’s polling station…If a person engages in misconduct in a polling station or fails to obey the presiding officer’s lawful orders, the person may immediately, by the presiding officer’s order, be removed from the polling station.”

Sub-paragraph (4), which the amendment would remove, states:

“A person so removed may, if charged with the commission in the polling station of an offence, be dealt with as a person taken into custody by a constable for an offence without a warrant.”

I do not know why the provision was originally included, or for that matter why it is being removed. What has prompted this change of view? I presume it is nothing to do with the technical wording of the statement, in that the person might not have been charged when he was actually in the polling station, but might have been charged with committing an offence in the polling station. However, I should be grateful if the Minister enlightened us. Some of the other amendments indeed seem to be technical.

[Mr Harper]

I think that with the hon. Gentleman’s first set of questions he seeks to re-argue the debate we had last week.

[Chris Bryant]

indicated assent.

[Mr Harper]

Last week during our first day in Committee, we had an extensive debate on the date of the referendum. I know that the hon. Gentleman argued a different point, but the Committee took the view, by a significant minority, that it wished the election to be on 5 May next year. Given that, it absolutely makes sense to ensure that we combine the elections, so that we make the administration more sensible and make significant financial savings. We have had that argument, and it seems to me that he is seeking to reopen it.

On amendment 171, the hon. Gentleman referred to the fact that sub-paragraph (4) was an outdated provision; to be quite honest, that is why we have removed it. It is simply not necessary.

[Chris Bryant]

What has changed since the Bill was brought forward that has made the provision outdated?

[Mr Harper]

I think it is more the case that we copied across to the Bill a lot of the existing rules. This is a minor, technical change, but on going through the rules more closely, we decided that the provision was no longer necessary. We are simply tidying up the legislation, which I think is perfectly sensible. These are, as my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House often says, running repairs.

Amendment 267 agreed to.

Amendment made: 170, in schedule 2, page 27, line 33, leave out ‘education’.—(Mr Harper.)

[Chris Bryant]

I beg to move amendment 354, page 27, line 37, at end insert—

‘(iii) a school which enjoys charitable status.’.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Bryant]

I know personally only one public school in England and Wales that is attached to a monastery, which is Ampleforth. There is also Downside. I know of a considerable number of others, and many are attached to Anglican foundations in various ways, such as Charterhouse. The point I was making was specifically in relation to the Northern Ireland settlement. I now have two Northern Ireland colleagues present. I did not want to disturb the complex equilibrium that sometimes exists in relation to these matters in Northern Ireland.

In the case of Ampleforth, for example, which has a large number of pupils over the age of 18 and a large number of teachers who live on a very large campus, I see no reason why there should not be a polling station for Ampleforth itself. That might apply to a number of the larger public schools which, to all intents and purposes, would represent as large a polling district as some other polling districts. The amendment does not require any action to be taken against public schools. I hope they would see it as an enabling measure so that they might be able to encourage more of their students to vote.

I still hope the Minister will support the amendments.

[Mr Harper]

I fear I may disappoint the hon. Gentleman. The amendments would compel independent schools to be used for electoral purposes and for the referendum, should the local authority decide that they are the most suitable place for such a purpose. Electoral legislation at present provides that all publicly funded schools can be used as polling stations, and we are applying those provisions to the referendum. So that there is no doubt, following discussion with the Department for Education we can confirm that academies and free schools will fall within those provisions as well.

Under the Bill, as in electoral law generally—

[Chris Bryant]

The Minister hurried on there. Following discussions with the Department for Education, he says that the same arrangements will apply to academies and free schools, but under what Act is that made clear? Is it made clear in the new legislation that was rushed through Parliament earlier this year?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Harper]

It is clear that schools that are publicly funded and receive Government grants fall under these provisions. Schools that do not receive Government grants do not. I was setting that out for the benefit of the Committee, in case there was any doubt. I see no need to labour the point.

Under the Bill, as in electoral law generally, independent schools cannot be compelled to act as polling stations for other electoral purposes unless they receive Government grants. But, to pick up the hon. Gentleman’s point about how he hoped that his amendment would be an enabling measure, there is nothing in the law to prevent such schools from serving as polling stations voluntarily. So there is nothing in the law to prevent all those schools that he mentioned from acting as and hosting a polling station, particularly if they have lots of students of voting age. They can make that offer to the local authority, and the local authority can take it up; there is nothing at all to stop a school doing so.

On the hon. Gentleman’s wish for the amendment to be an enabling measure, I must say that it is simply not necessary. I do not see any need at all to change the arrangements, which work well. There is nothing to stop such schools volunteering their premises, and I see from his examples that there may well be benefits to the schools and to their students, so I urge him to withdraw this unnecessary amendment.

[Chris Bryant]

I shall not withdraw the amendment, because I do not accept the premise on which the Minister has advanced his argument. I presume that in his definition of a school for the purposes of the provision, he relies on paragraph (9)(3)(a) of schedule 2, which states that it is either

“(i) a school maintained or assisted by a local education authority;”

or

“(ii) a school in respect of which grants are made out of moneys provided by Parliament to the person or body of persons responsible for the management of the school”—

including, therefore, all the free schools. From the way he was talking, however, it seemed he was suggesting that he had come across some new reason in his conversations with the Department for Education which proved that free schools would be included.

The Minister is right that anybody can apply to provide a polling station. Indeed, some members of the public have said, “In my street, there is no provision,” or, “In my little village, there is no provision, so if you would like to use my house feel free to do so.” However, I am not aware of any public school or independent school having sought to do so. The Minister did not meet the point that for many state schools there is an inconvenience attached to providing a polling station. The law requires them to do so free of charge, but it does not require anybody else so to do.

The Minister’s distinction is based on whether schools are in receipt of moneys or not; my point is that if a school benefits from a favourable tax regime, namely the charitable status that attaches to large parts, although not all, of the independent sector, they should have a concomitant responsibility to provide such facilities. Many public schools are quite happy to provide on a limited basis their sporting facilities—swimming pool, gym or whatever—to the wider community, and such provision might apply to the situation before us, too. I shall therefore press the amendment to a vote.

Question put, That the amendment be made.

--- Later in debate ---

[The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Nigel Evans)]

A statement was made by the Minister earlier about thresholds and I am sure that it will all become clear to the hon. Gentleman as he stays for the rest of this evening’s proceedings.

[Mr Harper]

I beg to move amendment 268, page 28, line 2, at end insert—

‘Modification of forms

9A (1) The Chief Counting Officer may, for the purpose of making a relevant form easier for voters to understand or use, specify modifications that are to be made to the wording or appearance of the form.

(2) In paragraph (1) “relevant form” means any of the following—

(a) Forms 3 to 11, 14 and 16 in Part 2 of this Schedule;

(b) the form of the notice set out in rule 16(7).

(3) In this Part of this Act a reference to a form is to be read as a reference to that form with any modifications specified under paragraph (1).

(4) Where a form is modified by virtue of paragraph (1), section 26(2) of the Welsh Language Act 1993 applies as if the modified form were specified by this Act.’.

[The First Deputy Chairman]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Government amendments 274 to 278, 281 to 305, 308, 323 and 324.

[Mr Harper]

These amendments make several modifications for the purpose of adding clarity to the forms and statutory questions that a presiding officer may put to voters in certain specified circumstances in light of the recommendations of the Electoral Commission, Scope and electoral administrators. I referred to these amendments earlier, when we were debating the amendments tabled by the right hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Alun Michael).

We recognise the important role that the chief counting officer has to play in the successful running of the poll so, at the request of the Electoral Commission, amendment 268 gives the chief counting officer power to amend the wording and appearance of voter-facing forms, except the ballot paper, for the purposes of making them easier to use or understand. This power will extend to forms 3 to 11, which are the form of postal voting statement, the declaration of identity, official poll cards and poll cards for postal or proxy voters; form 14, which is guidance for voters; and form 16, which is the form of declaration to be made by the companion of a voter with disabilities.

We have also made some other minor amendments to improve the clarity of the material seen by voters, including to the instructions on how to vote; to ensure that voters in devolved areas in particular are clear that the referendum relates only to the UK parliamentary system; and to ensure that the questions put to voters prior to being given a ballot paper are clear for areas in which more than one referendum may be taking place.

Following a recommendation from the Electoral Commission, we have sought to make the voting instructions clearer by stipulating that voters must vote in one box only. Amendments 287,291, 293 to 298, 303 and 308 effect this change at the relevant points in the Bill.

Amendments 282 and 283 give effect to the recommendations in the Electoral Commission’s guidance on prescribing voter materials to move that voting instruction to directly above the location of the boxes where electors will make their mark.

We have also tabled amendments to make it clear that the referendum provided for by this Bill relates to the electoral system for UK parliamentary elections, as opposed to electoral systems electing members to devolved legislatures. That issue came out of the research that the Electoral Commission did when it was looking at the question. Amendments 281, 284, 286, 289, 290, 304, 305, 323, and 324 achieve that objective.

We have also tabled amendments to make it clear that the referendum provided for by this Bill relates to the electoral system for UK parliamentary elections, as opposed to electoral systems electing members to devolved legislatures. That was an issue that came out of the research that the Electoral Commission did when it was looking at the question. Amendments 281, 284, 286, 289, 290, 304, 305, 323, and 324 achieve that objective.

Given that mayoral referendums might also be taking place on 5 May next year, we have introduced amendments to clarify the statutory questions that the presiding officer may put to voters requesting a ballot paper for the referendum for which the Bill provides. The amendments adapt those questions so that the presiding officer must specifically ask whether that voter has already voted in the referendum on the electoral system for UK parliamentary elections. Amendments 274 to 278 effect that change at the relevant points in the Bill.

Amendment 302 adds a title to guidance for voters to specify that the guidance to which the form refers relates to the referendum on the voting system for UK parliamentary elections. Amendments 285 and 288 give clarity to electoral administrators on where the official mark confirming the authenticity of the ballot paper may be placed on the form. It is important that no wording other than specified in the Bill appears on the front of the ballot paper. Any official marks that contain words, letters or numbers must therefore be printed on the back of the form, which will ensure that ballot papers are as simple and clear as possible for the voters to use.

Following advice from the chief counting officer in Northern Ireland, we have introduced amendments 299 to 301 to remove unnecessary forms from the Bill, as in practice separate poll cards are not sent to electors voting by post in that part of the United Kingdom.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Harper]

The point about mayoral referendums is that some may indeed be held. Where there are mayoral referendums, we simply wish to capture them and cover that circumstance. The hon. Gentleman may think that the provision is otiose, but we thought it sensible to be clear.

On the hon. Gentleman’s point about amendment 287, amendment 291, and so forth—his point about putting an X in one box only—we are following a recommendation from the Electoral Commission, which I understand it has tested, to make voting instructions clearer. I recognise that he thinks that that might lead to some confusion, but we do not propose to change the normal rules that apply for elections or the test that returning officers adopt to determine whether a vote is validly cast. For example, as long as someone has made clear their intention, the usual rules apply. So, if they have not put an X, but drawn a little smiley face, or if the mark is partly in one box and partly in another, but what the voter intended is clear, the usual rules will apply and returning officers will attempt to ensure that such votes count. Those are the normal rules for elections that we are all used to, so where there is doubt, if the returning officer thinks that there is clarity about someone’s intention but then does the usual check with the counting agents, that vote will be allowed.

[Chris Bryant]

I was not aware that a smiley face was a signifier of assent, but I hope that that matches present practice. The Minister may know more about that than I do, but if he is wrong, he will doubtless correct his statement later. However, the bit that the Electoral Commission has not been able to check is how the system works where combined polls take place in the same room and where a voter has to go to two desks to cast two votes, and therefore votes twice. That is the bit on which I am seeking clarification.

[Mr Harper]

Just to return to the other point, of course the rules talk about putting down an X, but it is usually the case in elections that if someone has made a mark and signified a clear intention, the returning officer will normally accept that, although that is usually run past the counting agents. That is the usual practice and we do not propose to change it. We do not want to disfranchise anybody unnecessarily.

As for the hon. Gentleman’s point about voters perhaps being confused by the number of ballot boxes, personally I think that he is making a point for the sake of making a point, but let us assume for the sake of argument that he is trying to make a sensible point. Given that the proposal was adopted following a recommendation from the Electoral Commission, I will draw his concerns to its attention, and it can see whether they have any validity. The chief counting officer has the ability to amend some of the other forms and instructions given to voters, so I will draw the matter to her attention and see what the Electoral Commission thinks, which is perhaps the most reasonable thing to do in the circumstances.

Amendment 268 agreed to.

Amendments made: 269, page 28, line 8, leave out ‘16th’ and insert ‘15th’.

Amendment 270, page 29, line 6, leave out paragraphs (3) and (4) and insert—

‘(3) In England, the polling station allotted to electors from any parliamentary polling district wholly or partly within a particular voting area must, in the absence of special circumstances, be in the parliamentary polling place for that district unless the parliamentary polling place is outside the voting area.

(3A) In Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland, the polling station allotted to electors from any polling district must be in the polling place for that district.

(4) The polling districts and polling places that apply for the purposes of paragraph (3A) are—

(a) in Wales, those that would apply by virtue of provision made under section 13(1)(a) of the Government of Wales 2006 in respect of an election for membership of the National Assembly for Wales held on the day of the referendum;

(b) in Scotland, those that would apply by virtue of provision made under section 12(1)(a) of the Scotland Act 1998 in respect of an election for membership of the Scottish Parliament held on the day of the referendum;

(c) in Northern Ireland, those for the time being established under the law relating to local elections with the meaning of section 130 of the Electoral Law Act (Northern Ireland) 1962.’.

Amendment 271, page 29, line 41, at end insert—

‘This paragraph is subject to paragraphs (1A) and (2).

(1A) An official poll card must not be sent to a person—

(a) as an elector, if the person is entitled to a postal vote in Northern Ireland;

(b) as a proxy, if the person is entitled to a proxy postal vote in Northern Ireland.’.

Amendment 272, page 30, line 23, leave out sub-paragraph (b).

Amendment 273, page 30, line 27, leave out sub-paragraph (d).

Amendment 171, page 35, line 3, leave out sub-paragraph (4).

Amendment 274, page 35, line 31, after ‘referendum’ insert

‘on the voting system for United Kingdom parliamentary elections’.

Amendment 275, page 36, line 5, after ‘referendum’ insert

‘on the voting system for United Kingdom parliamentary elections’.

Amendment 276, page 36, line 9, after ‘referendum’ insert

‘on the voting system for United Kingdom parliamentary elections’.

Amendment 277, page 36, line 22, after ‘referendum’ insert

‘on the voting system for United Kingdom parliamentary elections’.

Amendment 278, page 36, line 35, after ‘referendum’ insert

‘on the voting system for United Kingdom parliamentary elections’.—(Mr Harper.)

[Chris Bryant]

I beg to move amendment 352, page 37, line 26, after ‘contrary’, insert

‘including any validly registered voter who presents himself to the polling station before 10 pm but, because of a queue, is not immediately able to vote’.

The amendment seeks to rectify the situation that we saw in the general election this year, when, as hon. Members will know, in several constituencies around the land people turned up to vote at 9.40 pm, 9.45 pm, 9.50 pm or 9.55 pm, but could not cast their ballots. Indeed, they were not provided with ballot papers because they could not get through the doors, as there were queues of people wanting to vote. I hope that all hon. Members thought it a bit of a scandal that although people have historically said that England is the mother of all Parliaments, and although we pride ourselves enormously on our historical past, we were not able to run—

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Bryant]

The right hon. Gentleman makes an extremely good point, and I am glad that Ministers appear to be taking it on board. Had they presented their changes to the Northern Ireland, Wales and Scotland legislation to allow for combined polls, I would be able to present proposals that dealt with that problem. However, because the Government are not proceeding in an orderly fashion—they are putting the cart before the horse—I can table an amendment only in relation to the referendum. Should the Government get their act together and present their other proposals, the Opposition would indeed seek to make provision so that people could receive both ballot papers when they present themselves at the polling station.

Additionally, some people might say, “I’m here, but there’s a queue. Which of the two ballots should I participate in before the 10 o’clock deadline?” That could lead to a degree of chaos and disorder in the polling station, particularly in urban areas. The amendment would be an important provision and we need to make it. As I said, I am very hopeful that the Minister will meet my ardent desire and agree to it.

[Mr Harper]

I fear that I might disappoint the hon. Gentleman again. Clearly, some of the scenes on election night did not do our reputation any good, but it is worth putting them in context. The Electoral Commission report states that there was a problem with queues in 27 polling stations out of 40,000 that were used for the May elections, and that about 1,200 people were affected out of the 29.6 million people who voted. I do not wish to underplay the position for those people, but it is worth putting the problems in perspective. The report also states:

“The main factors which contributed to the problems were evidence of poor planning assumptions in some areas”,

meaning that some areas used assumptions for the general election based on the turnout for local elections.

[Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab)]

I understand the Minister’s argument, but in a very tight election that situation in two or three marginal seats could make the difference between the election of one Government or another.

[Mr Harper]

I had not finished my points, if the hon. Gentleman would allow me. I was not trying to underplay the situation, but to put the problem in context. The commission report also states that the main factors were:

“Evidence of poor planning assumptions…Use of unsuitable buildings and inadequate staffing arrangements”

and that

“Contingency arrangements…were not properly triggered”

when queues built up. Returning officers are supposed to have contingency arrangements in place to deal with unexpected demand, and to be able to move people about. It was clear from the Electoral Commission’s research that, in the areas where there were problems, there had been inadequate planning.

--- Later in debate ---

[Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) (Lab)]

rose—

[Mr Harper]

I will give way to the hon. Gentleman first.

[Chris Bryant]

It would be all right for this argument to be advanced if it were not for the fact that the Government are not doing anything about the problem. The Deputy Prime Minister said this was something that should never ever happen again. I have heard the Parliamentary Secretary say that voting fraud absolutely has to be dealt with, and I completely agree, but there are not any more incidences of that than there are of these problems in relation to the poll. If he were coming forward with a solution tonight, I might be more interested in his remarks.

[Mr Harper]

I did not say that we would do nothing about the problem. I specifically said the opposite—that the Government are looking carefully at the Electoral Commission’s report and its outline of the problem, and that we are considering possible solutions. We are not yet persuaded that a legislative solution is the right one, however. When we have decided what we think the appropriate solution is, if that requires legislation we will introduce it at the appropriate time. Also, if we were to make this change, we would need to make it for elections in the round, not just for this particular referendum.

[Ms Abbott]

The Parliamentary Secretary is in danger of understating the seriousness of the problem. My Hackney constituency was one of the places where this problem arose, and at the appropriate time I hope to expand on how serious an issue it was.

[Mr Harper]

I was not in any way underplaying the seriousness of the issue in those cases where these events happened. I was simply outlining the fact that it was not as widespread as people might have thought from the television coverage; I wanted to put it in context. However, as I said, I absolutely acknowledge that for those people who were affected, the problem was clearly very serious, and we want it to be solved, but we do not necessarily think that the proposal under discussion is the right way to solve it. There is a danger of creating as many, if not more, problems than those we are trying to solve in the first place. The law of unintended consequences might apply.

[Mark Durkan]

Does the Minister not accept that the problem is likely to be more acute in circumstances such as those in Northern Ireland, where voters will be using three different ballot papers? Regardless of what combination arrangements are put in place in respect of separate ballot boxes and so forth, that is likely to cause more delay. I also ask him to remember that in the last general election some of us had our counts delayed by dissidents who were directly attacking the democratic process. Sadly, it is likely that in some places in Northern Ireland there could be disruption outside the polling stations, which will add to the problem.

[Mr Harper]

The hon. Gentleman raises two separate issues. The latter problem is clearly one that I hope does not arise, although he says it may well. If so, it must be managed on a case-by-case basis. We cannot make provision in legislation for that, but we want to make sure we solve the problem.

The hon. Gentleman’s first point about the combination of polls next year highlights exactly why we have worked closely with the Electoral Commission and officials who administer elections across the UK to put in place sensible combination provisions to ensure that the elections run smoothly. It will be for those responsible for delivering both the elections and a referendum to look at what the likely turnouts will be and what complexities might arise from the elections, particularly in places such as Northern Ireland where there may be a number of polls with different electoral systems, and to put plans in place. One of the things that the Electoral Commission will be examining, certainly as far as the referendum is concerned, is whether people on the ground have made those arrangements. I know that the chief counting officer will be ensuring that the counting officers and regional counting officers have exactly thought through some of these issues to ensure that they do not arise again, and of course they have the power to direct some of these things to be sorted out appropriately, a power that they did not have for the election.

To be fair, it is worth making the point that although the Electoral Commission was criticised to some extent this year, it was not responsible for delivering the elections in those individual cases. It delivers the guidance and it encourages returning officers to think about some of these issues, but in the areas where there was a problem it was largely the responsibility of the individual returning officer for not having planned properly or having had proper contingency arrangements in place. That is where the responsibility lies, and we need to ensure that that does not happen again.

[Ms Abbott]

The hour is late, but I wish to put on the record how concerned people in Hackney were by the debacle that we had at the polls earlier this year. The number of people who were turned away is an underestimate, because in my constituency hundreds of people came out after work to vote, saw the queues, went away, came back again, saw the queues and went away again, so we will never know how many people were put off voting. The cause of the queues was partly that people in Hackney were voting in three different ballots—that was one of the problems. Another cause was that the returning officer put a great deal of effort into encouraging people to cast their votes—my area had its highest ever turnout, particularly among young people who had never voted before. Another cause was the enthusiasm of people in Hackney to vote Labour.

I wish to stress that in a democracy the state has a very basic responsibility to allow people to cast their vote. These people did not come along at 9.50 pm; they had been queuing since 9 o’clock, but when 10 o’clock struck they were told that they could not cast their vote because they did not have a ballot paper in their hand. All I am saying is that this matter caused great concern in Hackney and it was very demoralising, particularly for people casting their vote for the first time. Voting is a fundamental right, and it is a fundamental duty of Government to allow people who want to vote, and who have come out in good time, to vote. We all saw last year’s American elections, where very long queues of young people wanted to vote for Barack Obama. A system was put in place that allowed people who were in a queue to vote; once the point where the queue was stopping had been marked, everybody in that queue was able to vote, even if that took hours. I do not see why we cannot have a similar system here in the United Kingdom.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Bryant]

Further to that point of order, Mr Evans. Several hon. Members have made the point this evening that there has not been time to debate significant elements of the Bill. In addition, the Government have today tabled 100 pages of amendments to the Bill, which they have proposed we debate next Monday, but they have already said that those amendments are incorrect and will have to be superseded by further amendments. At the moment, only two days are provided for Report. I would therefore ask the Government to consider providing a third day on Report, so that the issues can be fully debated. Otherwise, I am sure that their lordships would want to spend a considerable period of time looking at the legislation properly. Finally, the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) rightly pointed out that votes normally follow voices in this House. That is to say that Members who shout aye have to vote aye, and if the Minister is going to shout aye in a moment, he should be voting in the Aye Lobby.

[Mr Harper]

Further to that point of order, Mr Evans. If the hon. Member for Rhondda genuinely thought that this was the most important part of the Bill, he should have thought about that when he moved some of his less important amendments today. That was a time-wasting exercise and nothing else.

I gave a clear commitment on Second Reading that the Government would do everything within their power to ensure that we had a debate and a vote on all the key issues of the Bill. We provided extra time in the programme motion last week. Reaching a point in the debate, of course, requires Members to exercise some discipline, which they were incapable of doing today. What is left within my power is to propose amendment 3 to enable the Committee to vote on it, but I ask my colleagues to vote against it. I want to facilitate the opportunity for this Committee to vote.

[The First Deputy Chairman]

I have listened carefully to the several points of order that Members have made. What the Government propose is orderly under Standing Order No. 83D(2), although it is, as some hon. Members have observed, somewhat unusual. I am sure that hon. Members will also have noted the opportunities open to them, as has been remarked, on Report. I should just remind Members of the rule on voice and vote. It is possible to vote against one’s own amendment, but one cannot shout “Aye” and then vote “No”. We now move on to clause 6.



Clause 6

Commencement or repeal of amending provisions

Amendment proposed: 3, page 4, line 28, after ‘“No”’, insert

‘and the number of electors casting a vote in the referendum is equal to or greater than fifty per cent. of those entitled to cast such a vote,’.—(Mr Harper.)

Question put, That the amendment be made.

Question negatived.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill (Programme) (No. 2)

Mark Harper Excerpts

Tuesday 12th October 2010 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark Harper)]

I look forward to a rigorous debate on the issues in the Bill during its Committee stage. I am grateful to the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee—whose Chairman, the hon. Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen) is in his place—for the report that it published yesterday and for the considerable amount of work that it put into taking evidence from, among others, the Deputy Prime Minister and myself. Concerns were expressed about the amount of time available to the Committee, but that was clearly not a barrier to its producing a comprehensive report, and I thank all the members of the Committee for their diligence.

The motion before us allows for five days of debate on the Floor of the House. I know that some Members have expressed concern that there will not be enough time to debate the provisions in the Bill, and we have tried to keep rigid programming to a minimum. As I said on Second Reading, however, we want to ensure—we have taken steps to do so in the programme motion—that the House will be able to debate and vote on the key issues raised by the Bill. In our view, the programme motion will allow that.

For this 17-clause Bill, we have proposed five full days of Committee on the Floor of the House and two days for Report, which we think adequately recognises the importance of the issues. We have had discussions through the usual channels with the Opposition, who have not presented any objections to the timetable.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on the progress he is making with this Bill, but will he explain why there is closure at 11 o’clock this evening? This is a constitutional Bill of vital importance, so why should we not be able to talk for as long as we want on the issues today?

[Mr Harper]

Given the previous Government’s record on this matter, I would have thought that my hon. Friend would recognise that we are allowing extra time today to take account of the fact that we have just had a rightly lengthy and well attended statement. We granted extra time so that that statement did not unduly eat into the time available for debating this Bill. As I said, I would have thought that my hon. Friend, given his concern for Parliament, would have welcomed the progress made. We may not have gone as far as he would have wished, but I think that even he would recognise that we have gone some way further than the previous Administration did. I see him nodding his assent.

[Mr Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con)]

I accept, and give credit to party managers for ensuring, that we have a certain protection of time up to 11 pm today. However, does the Minister understand our concern that later in our consideration—certainly for the third and fourth day—a significant number of amendments have been tabled, so that we may not have enough time to debate the many issues surrounding exempted constituencies, for example, simply because a guillotine will come into force at 11pm or some other specified time?

[Mr Harper]

My hon. Friend makes a perfectly sensible point. We have allowed the number of days allotted and included some extra time, but we will clearly keep that under review. He will have noticed that on the fourth day—the same day as the comprehensive spending review—we have allowed an extra two hours for the Committee to sit. We have tried to take that into account, and it is also in the interest of Members to balance the time allotted to different parts of the Bill. As I say, however, we will keep this under review and see how the debate progresses. I have heard what my hon. Friend says, and I will review progress.

[Mr Field]

The Minister says that he is going to keep this under review, so would he consider changing this programme motion in order to grant extra days of debate or put back the end-point? If we vote for the motion today, will it be set in stone, as reviewing it might not satisfy those of us who are concerned that elements of the Bill will not get the full consideration they need?

[Mr Harper]

My hon. Friend will know that on Second Reading, when the House voted by a considerable margin to support the principle of the Bill, it also supported the initial programme motion of 6 September, which set the number of days for debate. I listened very carefully to the wide-ranging debate on that day and picked out the issues that appeared to be of concern to Members on both sides of the House. That is what has driven this second programme motion—to try to ensure that the key issues are debated. Today, for example, we are to debate the date of the referendum and the question that it will put, and those issues will be debated. As I said, I listened carefully to the whole of the previous debate, so I believe we have captured the key issues. The House has already accepted that five days in Committee is the right period for consideration of the Bill.

[Mr Charles Walker (Broxbourne) (Con)]

The Minister is being very generous, but bearing in mind that there will not be a general election until 2015, surely there is not that much of a rush to get this measure through the House.

[Mr Harper]

My hon. Friend is right that the coalition Government are strong and that there will not be an election until 7 May 2015, as set out in the Fixed-term Parliaments Bill. The Deputy Prime Minister has made it clear, however, that we want the referendum to take place next year in order to make progress, and we also need to kick off the boundary review, ensuring that it reports in good time before the next election. That will allow parties across the House to select their candidates. We have secured a balance between moving at a reasonable pace, while also allowing adequate time for proper parliamentary debate. I think that we have done so.

[Mr Walker]

But why must we have the referendum in May next year?

[Mr Harper]

We made a commitment in the coalition agreement to have the referendum, and the Government believe that we should arrange to have it at an early opportunity, putting the question to the electors so that they can decide what voting system they want to use in the next election. That is the decision that the Government have made, and that is the view with which I will ask the Committee to agree later today. The House has already agreed with it in principle.

[Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con)]

Clause 1 covers five pages of the amendment paper, whereas clause 9 requires 12 pages. Debate on clause 9, however, will occupy only about a third of the time occupied by debate on clause 1.

[Mr Harper]

In my view, it is a question not just of the number of pages, but of the substance of the issues involved. My hon. Friend will note that the Bill also contains a number of schedules, and, given that I have written to him and other Members today, he will know how we propose to deal with the combination amendment. Complicated technical issues occupying many pages may not raise significant issues, while significant issues requiring considerable debate may not occupy many pages. I do not think that the Committee should take a simple page-count approach.

[Adam Afriyie (Windsor) (Con)]

My hon. Friend is making a great presentation. The coalition agreement, to which most of us agreed and of which most of us are very supportive, contained a commitment to a referendum on alternative voting. Will my hon. Friend confirm that the date of the referendum was not included in the agreement, and therefore need not necessarily be part of this process?

[Mr Harper]

My hon. Friend is right. I am glad that he finds my argument compelling, and I am sure that he will support the programme motion if Members feel the need to put it to a vote and test the opinion of the Committee.

It is true that the coalition agreement committed both coalition parties in the Government to supporting a referendum on the voting system, and the Government subsequently decided that 5 May next year was the right date. The House has already endorsed the principle of the Bill, and later this afternoon we will conduct a line-by-line scrutiny of it. I will be asking Members on both sides of the Committee to endorse the date, although I will expect support only from Members on this side.

[Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

The hon. Gentleman is being very generous and very reasonable. In that spirit of reasonableness, will he have a word with his unreasonable colleague the Secretary of State for Wales, who is refusing to allow a Welsh Grand Committee debate on the implications for Wales of this major constitutional Bill? We have not been given any explanation for her decision. Would it not make sense to allow time for debate in a separate forum, to enable more time to be made available for debate in the Chamber?

[Mr Harper]

I simply do not recognise the hon. Gentleman’s characterisation of my right hon. Friend the rather excellent Secretary of State for Wales. He will note that I have been joined in the Chamber by her Under-Secretary of State, my hon. Friend the. Member for Clwyd West (Mr Jones), who will be supporting me on the Bill. There will be adequate time in the five days that we have provided for debate on how the Bill affects Wales, in terms of both the boundary changes and the referendum, and I feel sure that the hon. Gentleman and his Welsh colleagues—including the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), who is sitting on the Opposition Front Bench—will acquit themselves well in speaking up for Wales during that debate.

The motion specifies the clauses and schedules that are to be debated, and the days on which they are to be debated. Beyond that, it will be for you, Mr Speaker, and for Members themselves, to decide how best to use the time. As I have already said in response to interventions, we have provided extra time on each day to allow for statements. On the fourth day, as we know, there will be a significant statement on the spending review, and having assumed that you will allow questions on it to run for a significant period, Mr Speaker, we have provided the necessary extra time.

I believe that the programme allows the Committee adequate time. I believe that it delivers on the promise that I made on Second Reading to allow the significant issues to be both debated and voted on, and I hope that Members on both sides of the Committee will feel able to support it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Harper]

So let’s crack on.

[Chris Bryant]

The hon. Gentleman spoke for longer than I shall, so he can keep shtum for a moment.

It would be better if there were no guillotines in the days provided for debate. As the Minister’s colleague, the hon. Member for Broxbourne (Mr Walker), asked: what is the rush? Does this Bill have to be hurried through because its measures are the glue that hold together the coalition—that is what Opposition Members suspect, and indeed I think that it is what the hon. Gentleman suspects as well—or is there some honourable, decent reason for that? We know the answer, of course.

There is clearly a rush on. The Select Committee report has already said that hasty drafting and no consultation are the hallmarks. In recent years it has been extremely unusual for any constitutional reform Bill to go through this House without any pre-legislative scrutiny. I have also scoured history to find a constitutional Bill of this magnitude and significance that went through with so few days of consultation on the Floor of the House. The Minister says it is a short Bill, and that may be the case.

[Mr Harper]

rose—

[Chris Bryant]

The Minister has talked enough, and he wants us to get on with the business in hand. He said it is only a short Bill. However, although it may contain only a few clauses, it is 153 pages long, and it affects major and significant parts of our constitution. Also, he has crafted the motion in a way that allows us remarkably little freedom within each of the days and between the days. For instance, if we finish the business early on the second day, next Monday, we will not be able to proceed straight away with the business for the third day. We will almost certainly need to review that, because the business for the third day is clauses 7, 8 and 9 and schedule 6, which include the topic of precisely how the alternative vote would operate. We must remember that the Bill will never come back to the House if the referendum is carried—although I know that the Minister hopes it will not be carried.

The measures to be discussed on the third day also give us the new rules for the Boundary Commissions, cutting up the rules that have existed for many years. In addition, there is the cutting of the number of parliamentary seats and the decision about how we distribute them. That, too, would never come back to the House for any vote hereafter, unless the House of Lords were to change the provisions. It would be wrong to concertina debate on all that into one single day. It is quite possible that that would mean that there would be perhaps half an hour or 40 minutes to discuss the Northern Irish element of the Bill, including the distribution of seats. That would not serve Northern Ireland well.

As several Members have made clear, there is an additional point to do with the Secretary of State for Wales. I have to say that since becoming Secretary of State she has become far more sour than she was before, when she was a rather more pleasant individual. She has refused point blank to allow a Welsh Grand Committee to discuss the very significant issues that there are in relation to Wales.

Therefore, although the Minister may be blasé, we are not buying any of this.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Mark Harper Excerpts

Tuesday 12th October 2010 Commons Chamber

[Graham Stringer]

This has been a long debate on clause 1 and one thing that I have learned, and which could apply also to other parties in the Chamber, is that we should all go to Grantham and Stamford and introduce 90% of the electorate to the hon. Member who represents them at the moment. If they knew the hon. Member for Grantham and Stamford (Nick Boles), there would perhaps be a different result in that constituency. He did, however, point out that some of the debate that goes on here does not have a resonance outside; people are not talking about d’Hondt, the alternative vote or PR.

My position is that there should not be a referendum. On 9 February, when there was a vote in the House on the issue, I was not persuaded when the Whip said, “Vote for a referendum on AV because the Lords will overturn it.” That struck me as an inadequate justification for a major constitutional change, and I have not altered my position. I have listened to all the contributions today, and I watched with exquisite pleasure the misery on the faces of his right hon. and hon. Friends on the Front Bench as the hon. Member for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin) destroyed the case for a referendum on 5 May—the same day as different elections in different parts of the United Kingdom. I think that that argument was won fully. I also accept what my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow South West (Mr Davidson) said, which was that one reason why we are discussing the matter when people outside do not want to do so is quite simply that a deal was done between the Lib Dems and the Conservatives. The Conservatives do not like it but it will keep them in power, and it will give a political advantage to the Lib Dems, who will therefore vote for cuts.

The situation is slightly worse than that, though. There is a double gerrymander in the Bill. The changes in boundaries—perpetual changes without any right to challenge them—deal only with a tiny part of the problem of more votes being needed to elect a Member from one party than from another. The Bill also cuts 11%—a Rawlings and Thrasher estimate—of the seats that the Labour party has, 11% of those that the Lib Dems have, and 4% of those of the Conservatives. In an alliance, there has to be a quid pro quo, so what is it? It is believed, with rather less statistical analysis than in the boundary review, that AV will benefit the Lib Dems. It may well do so; I suspect that there is some common sense to that.

The justification for the referendum on AV, then, has nothing to do with what the Deputy Prime Minister tells us—that it is about putting trust back into politics after last year’s horrific expenses scandal. I have yet to hear any explanation as to how AV as opposed to first past the post will make people feel better about somebody who wants to buy a Stockholm duck house at the public expense. There is no relationship whatever between the two issues.

I have come to a slightly different conclusion from that of Conservative Members to whose speeches I enjoyed listening. Fundamental constitutional change is proposed which will give advantage to the two political parties in a coalition Government. It is more common to change the rules in between elections for the party political advantage of those parties in government. This proposal has been a trait more of nearly democratic countries in eastern Europe in the past, and now more commonly occurs in Africa. If Parliament is to go through with what I consider to be an unnecessary referendum, it should be with an eye not to the next general election, where clear vested interests are at stake, but to the one after that. That is why I tabled amendment 225.

Some good general points against having referendums on the same day as other elections have been made, but the focus of a UK-wide election and a decision to change the voting system for the future takes out the rather cynical self-interest of the two parties in government. When not just 85% but 100% of the electorate are involved, such a thing is worth doing. There is thus a sound argument for proceeding on that basis, although there is not much of a sound argument for having the referendum itself.

Let me provide the three reasons why I believe it would be worth proceeding on such a basis. First, there would be a higher turnout—coherently and consistently across the whole country. Secondly, there would be no self-interest, so we would avoid the cynicism of the two parties in coalition changing the rules in between elections to their own advantage. Thirdly, although the hon. Member for Grantham and Stamford thinks that everyone can understand things instantly, I do not. This is a complicated issue and most of the electorate take these things seriously. Much of the current propaganda says things that might be true but are not true. People say, “If you have AV, you get the support of 50% of the electorate.” Well, in some cases that is so; in others it is not. It is still possible to get elected on AV on less than 50%.

Some people believe that AV is more proportional. In some cases, such as the general elections of 1983 and 1997, AV would have produced a less proportional result, with more extreme victories for the Conservatives and Labour respectively. What AV probably does produce—experience of this coalition before the next general election will provide a very good argument against it—are more coalitions. For those reasons, I will support amendments that move the referendum away from 5 May, because that is the worst of the proposals before us. My preference, however, is for having a referendum that will affect not the next general election, but the one after that.

[The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark Harper)]

My hon. Friend the Member for Grantham and Stamford (Nick Boles), who does not appear to be present at the moment, said that he might be the only speaker for the Government. Fortunately my hon. Friend the Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams) chipped in with some additional support. I can reassure him and, indeed, the Chief Whip that I too intend to speak on behalf of the Government.

All the amendments seek to delay the date on which the referendum takes place, either proposing a specific alternative or suggesting a mechanism enabling the date to be determined later. Some, including amendments 4 and 126, are intended to prevent the combination of the referendum with other polls.

I am aware of the concerns that have been expressed about the combination of the polls next May, but they ignore the fact that it is not unusual to combine elections. Many of us, either this year or in 2005, were elected at a general election, determining who would govern the country, on a day on which people were voting in other elections. I therefore do not think it reasonable to suggest that people are not capable of making decisions about various levels of government and voting on referendums on the same day.

[Mr Jenkin]

I am reluctant to intervene so early in my hon. Friend’s speech. However, I think that there can be a justification for combining different elections on the same day, simply because the political parties are likely to be fighting analogous campaigns in those elections. The difference between that and combining a referendum with an election is that the referendum issue is, or should be—as the Electoral Commission suggested in 2002—elevated above party politics. It is rather more difficult to elevate the debate about the referendum issue above party politics if those taking part in referendum campaigns are taking part in party political election campaigns at the same time. The hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) made that point extremely well.

[Mr Harper]

I am not sure that I agree with my hon. Friend that parties campaign on the same issues. In 2005, when elections to Gloucestershire county council were taking place and I was also fighting a general election, we were campaigning on very different issues. We were campaigning on national issues for the purposes of the general election, but on specific local issues for the purposes of the Gloucestershire election.

Our programme for government made a commitment to the public to hold the referendum. We feel that the public have a right to expect that commitment to be delivered promptly, and we believe that holding the referendum on 5 May next year will deliver it.

I do not follow the argument about differential turnouts. Most of the country will vote next year, 84% of the electorate in the United Kingdom and 81% of the electorate in England. It is not true that everyone in England will be faced with other elections, but the vast majority will. A significant amount of money—about £30 million—can be saved for the taxpayer. Although that is not a reason for combining elections, it seems to me that if there is to be a referendum and if there is no other obvious reason why a combination does not make sense, going out of our way to spend an extra £30 million, particularly at a time when money is tight, would be perverse.

[Thomas Docherty]

There is a question that I hoped to ask the Deputy Prime Minister, but I am afraid that the Minister will have to answer it. Have he and the Deputy Prime Minister actually read the Gould report, and if so, when?

[Mr Harper]

We have indeed. I was coming to that. Let me try to find the relevant page about Mr Gould so that I can whip it out.

I can tell Members on both sides of the Committee who were keen on overnight counting in the general election—I seem to remember that it was proposed by my hon. Friend the Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing), and that her proposal received tremendous cross-party support—that those who say that Ron Gould is the fount of all knowledge, and that his views on elections should be listened to unquestioningly, ought to know that he does not believe in overnight counts of ballot papers. Those who cite him as the fount of all wisdom should be a little cautious.

To be fair, Ron Gould says that he would prefer the two polls to be held on separate dates. However, he also says that he does not think that holding them on the same day would cause the problems that were experienced in 2007, because voting systems are less complex now. He points out that there will be elections based on existing systems that will not be changed, along with a simple, straightforward question. He does not foresee the problems that the hon. Gentleman seems to anticipate.

[Thomas Docherty]

When did the Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister first read the Gould report? Was that before or after they announced the referendum date?

[Mr Harper]

The Deputy Prime Minister and I have looked very carefully at the submissions Mr Gould made to the Scottish Affairs Committee, and also at the other submissions. We have also looked at the relevant sections of the Gould report, and the analysis is not the same. We are not talking about multiple voting systems. We are talking about a straightforward question with a yes or no answer. I simply fail to see why that would cause an incredible amount of problems.

I think voters are perfectly able to distinguish between the polls. On Second Reading, I said to the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) that he was understating the qualities of his own constituents and the Scottish people in general. I think they are perfectly capable of making judgments about who they want to represent them in the Scottish Parliament—as, indeed, are Welsh and Northern Irish voters in respect of the Welsh and Northern Ireland Assemblies—and of making a judgment about what the voting system should be for this Parliament. I think they are perfectly capable of making that judgment, and I am surprised that the hon. Gentleman does not agree.

[Mr MacNeil]

I was not in any way casting aspersions on the electorate. I was casting aspersions on the capabilities of the media to deal with more than one issue. They are obsessed with programmes such as “The X Factor” and they struggle with complexity—as, I am a little surprised to discover, the Minister is too at the moment.

[Mr Harper]

I was referring to the debate we had on Second Reading. I shall come on to the hon. Gentleman’s contributions of today shortly.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Harper]

I shall give way now to the Chairman of the Scottish Affairs Committee.

[Mr Davidson]

The comments of Ron Gould to which the Minister has referred deal, I think, with the previous Scottish and local government elections. Is the Minister aware that on 21 September Ron Gould said in a note to the Committee:

“My basic view is that it would be preferable to separate these two voting activities in order to give the voters the opportunity to focus specifically on each of them”?

To be fair, he also said that the same complexities are not present in both sorts of election. However, he went on to say that the evidence suggests that

“in this event a number of pilot projects and focus groups be carried out to identify any unforeseen problems which might arise.”

Does the Minister intend to undertake such studies before a joint AV referendum and election are proceeded with?

[Mr Harper]

I do not think the hon. Gentleman was listening carefully enough to what I said. I clearly stated that Ron Gould said in the evidence he submitted to the hon. Gentleman’s Committee that his first choice would be to hold the polls on separate dates but that he did not think that the same complexities as arose in the 2007 votes would arise in this instance. My officials have been working closely with electoral administrators across the UK, and with the Electoral Commission, to do exactly what Ron Gould suggests, which is to make sure that any combined polls are run smoothly and well and go ahead without problems. That has been taking place during the summer.

The rigorous testing carried out by the Electoral Commission should also reassure those worried about voter confusion—a point made from the Opposition Benches. The new draft of the question, which we will be debating shortly, enables the electorate to understand clearly the choice they are being asked to make and to express their views.

[Thomas Docherty]

rose—

[Mr Harper]

Let me just make some progress so that I can deal with the points made in the debate.

I also do not accept the proposal in amendment 155 that the referendum date should be agreed by the Scottish Parliament and Northern Irish and Welsh Assemblies— despite the respect that, of course, I have for them. The dates of elections are not agreed in conjunction with them. There is no precedent for suggesting that elections or referendums can be held only with the consent of those involved in other polls. I do not think it is appropriate for devolved Administrations, effectively, to be able to veto policies of the UK Government. Although they might welcome that, neither I nor the Government think it is appropriate.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Harper]

I am going to make some more progress, or else I will be in danger of not answering the significant number of points made in this debate.

I am conscious of having given the Committee, through today’s programme motion, an extra hour of time, and I want to make sure that we reach our debate on the question that we will put to people in the referendum.

Amendments 6 and 126 suggest that the Electoral Commission should have a role in assessing the suitability of the poll date. Amendment 6 goes further, suggesting that the Electoral Commission should recommend the date and the length of the referendum period. I do not think it is right in principle that the Electoral Commission should have any of those roles. It is surely right that if the Government intend a referendum to be held, they should propose the date, which should then be discussed and agreed by Parliament. Proposing that the Electoral Commission should assume responsibility drags the Electoral Commission, which should be neutral, into the heart of that political debate, and that is not appropriate. That is why the Government are not able to accept those amendments.

Amendment 225, which was tabled by the hon. Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer), who spoke last, proposed to change the referendum date to that of the next general election. Clearly, that was designed to undermine the commitment to move quickly on our reform process. Delaying the referendum to 7 May 2015, which is the date of the next scheduled general election under our Fixed-term Parliaments Bill, does not make any sense. Having a referendum on the voting system for the general election on the same day that the general election is to be held does not make sense.

I shall now deal with some issues raised during the debate. The hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar—I hope he will forgive me if I do not pronounce that quite right, because I do try—opened the debate, making clear his view that the respect agenda was not intact and referring to the counting of the results. The Government have made it clear—I know that the Electoral Commission shares this view—that counting the election results first is important, because it does matter who governs Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. That is the plan; the referendum result will be counted when those elections are out of the way. So I think that the respect agenda is intact.

My hon. Friend the Member for Corby (Ms Bagshawe) picked up well on the contradictory nature of the debate coming from those on the Benches opposite: an argument was being put that the AV referendum would drown out the debate on national issues, yet simultaneously another argument was being made that the national issues would mean that the referendum debate would not get a proper hearing. She correctly spotted that, and I do not think that the point was adequately answered. I am happy to give way to the hon. Member for South Antrim (Dr McCrea) if he still wishes to intervene.

[Dr McCrea]

If the counting for the Assembly elections is resolved, we still have to address the counting of the council elections. Is that to wait until after the counting of the referendum? Where do we come in, because we already have two elections set for the same day?

[Mr Harper]

The Government’s position is very clear: there is an imperative to get the results of the elections to Parliament, the Assemblies and local councils decided first, because it is important who runs those organisations. The result of the referendum is important, but given that any change will not come in until the next election, the counting of the referendum will take place after the other counts. The Government have made that position clear and it is shared by the Electoral Commission. This might be a little frustrating for those who want the referendum result to be given as early as possible, but it is important that elections are counted first. That was the very clear sense that emerged from the previous Parliament when we debated when the general election count should take place. Results of elections need to be heard first.

My hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin), who is in his place, referred to the Government’s view of the referendum outcome and gave all sorts of thoughts as to how we had arrived at the date. Of course the Government are neutral about the outcome of the referendum. The two coalition parties are not, but the Government do not have a view. When the Deputy Prime Minister and I were considering the Bill and its details that was the view that we jointly took.

I also do not take my hon. Friend’s view, which we debated a little following his intervention, about treating votes differently. I do not buy the argument that, because some parts of the United Kingdom are voting and some are not, that in some sense treats voters differently. Even voters in the parts of England that do not have other elections next year are perfectly capable of listening to the arguments. They have the same ability to go out to vote as anybody else, and I do not understand this argument about differential turnout that he and other hon. Friends raised.

[Mr Jenkin]

The Minister is dealing with the House with his customary courtesy. I quoted a leading academic on the subject of referendums, and he could not think of any previous referendum in any other democratic country that was held concurrently with other polls in some parts of the country, while in other parts of the country there were no other elections. Which example are we following? Which example is the Electoral Commission drawing on in support of the idea of concurrent elections? Can he give a single example from anywhere in the world where a referendum has been held at a time when there are elections in some parts of the country but not in others?

[Mr Harper]

Off the top of my head, no, I cannot, but I do not see that that point is at all valid. I do not see that there is any problem with voters being able to make the decisions sensibly. My hon. Friend underrates those whom we ask to vote for us. His point is partly answered if we consider this year’s general election. There was a combination of a general election and local elections in some parts of the United Kingdom, but not everywhere. Some voters voted in more than one election, and some did not. I do not think that that had an impact on the results of either the local elections or the general election. If Members think that the situation meant that the results were illegitimate, that rather impacts on the results of those of us who are Members of this House.

[Dr Julian Lewis]

Is my hon. Friend seriously suggesting that there will be no difference in turnout in different parts of the country, when there are Scottish Parliament, Welsh Assembly and other comparable elections going on in some parts, local elections of some form going on in others, and no elections going on at all in others? The fact is that some people will vote in the referendum if they are at the poll, but might not have gone to the poll if it were not for those other elections. We need a level playing field to get a representative result.

[Mr Harper]

I simply do not accept my hon. Friend’s argument. If we look at the general election this year and turnouts across the country, we see that there were some constituencies where the turnout percentage was in the 70s or perhaps even in the 80s, and constituencies where it was in the 50s. Every voter had the same opportunity to vote, but turnout across the country varied. That will inevitably be the case in the referendum, and I do not think that there is anything sinister in that at all.

One of the issues raised by the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty), which I am glad to be able to address—that is why I did not want to keep taking interventions from him—was about the mechanics of how the elections were to be run. In evidence to the Scottish Affairs Committee, Tom Aitchison, the convener of the Interim Electoral Management Board for Scotland—one of the people who runs the elections—made it clear that the electoral professionals represented by his board would work to ensure that the poll was conducted in accordance with whatever the House decides. He asked that the referendum in Scotland

“be conducted on Scottish Parliamentary Boundaries”

to make sure that there was

“an efficient, clear and cost effective process”,

and said that

“the relevant Order should be amended to allow the Scottish Parliamentary elections to be formally combined with the referendum.”

He added:

“It is our current understanding that both of these proposals have been adopted”.

He is quite right, and we have listened. On 25 October, when we debate how the elections will be combined, it will be clear that we have looked at the administrative challenges and sought to make sure that the combined elections on 5 May can be conducted in the most sensible way possible.

[Thomas Docherty]

rose—

[Mr Harper]

I am just about to deal with the hon. Gentleman’s second point, which was about the cost of the count. It is perfectly clear—we acknowledge it—that some aspects of combination will require more resources than a stand-alone poll would, but that will be very much outweighed by the significant savings made by hiring polling stations and staff for one day rather than two. He is perfectly right that there are some increases in cost as a result of combining, but the overall saving is quite significant. It is about £30 million, which will be shared between the UK budget and the budgets of the devolved Administrations.

[Thomas Docherty]

In July, my right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) and I tabled questions about what estimate the Government had or had not made of the costs to local authorities, and the Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish Governments. The answers that we got back eventually were that the Government had made no estimate at all. Is the Minister now telling us that he has made estimates of the additional costs, and if so, what are they?

[Mr Harper]

The overall cost saving from combining the polls is £30 million. That is our best estimate looking at the details of running those elections across the country. It is a pretty good estimate and the one that we stick by, and the saving is significant. It is not the reason for combining the elections, but there is a significant benefit in doing so.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Julian Lewis]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Mr Harper]

If my hon. Friend will forgive me, I want to make some progress.

[Dr Lewis]

Very wise.

[Mr Harper]

The Chairman of the Scottish Affairs Committee made a number of points. I think that I dealt with some of them in interventions. My hon. Friend the Member for Grantham and Stamford made a speech with good humour. I think he was underplaying his reputation when he said that 90% of constituents did not know who he was. I am sure that if that was true and if more of them knew who he was, he would get an even more impressive result.

The hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long) and the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) made some serious points about the operational issues in Northern Ireland. The franchise for Northern Ireland Assembly elections and for local elections is the same. The referendum would be conducted on the Westminster franchise. So there would be two franchises operating, but that would be the same position as when local elections are combined with a general election.

As for the ID requirements, the legislation will provide that the requirements for the referendum and the Assembly elections will be the same. I understand that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State intends that the inconsistencies between ID requirements for voters in the Assembly and local elections will be dealt with before the polls next year.

The final point that I want to make, I am sure hon. Members will be pleased to know, is in response to my hon. Friend the Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams), who talked about consultation. On Second Reading my right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister said that we had not introduced the provisions on combination in the Bill because we wanted to take the time through the summer to work with the Electoral Commission, others in government in the territorial offices and with electoral administrators across the United Kingdom. I have written today to members of the Select Committee on Political and Constitutional Reform, Opposition spokesmen and others with an interest in the Bill, including Members who spoke on Second Reading or who have tabled amendments, and leaders of parties represented in the devolved Parliament and Assemblies, to set out when we propose to table those amendments and debate them in the House, and to give them an idea of some of the provisions. I hope that that is helpful—indeed, it was intended to be so. In conclusion, I urge right hon. and hon. Members to resist any amendments that are pressed to a Division, and I urge hon. Members thinking of pressing their amendments not to do so.

[Mr MacNeil]

To recap the debate, the hon. Member for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin) made a very good speech majoring on fairness. He mentioned missing the bus, and it seems to me that the Deputy Prime Minister missed the bus on fairness with his differential treatment of voters. The hon. Gentleman’s amendment cites six months; I cite 18 months as a maximum. The point of agreement is that the date must be changed to prevent the differential treatment of voters. He also made a good point about the BBC. Not understanding the voters has been a problem with the media, and with media management and presentation. Only 3% of the BBC output comes from Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, which constitute 17% of the UK population.

The right hon. Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan), an apostle of AV, naturally supports AV, but he does not support the date. I look forward to seeing him in the Lobby, and I am sure that narrow party political considerations will not prevent him from voting. The hon. Member for Gainsborough (Mr Leigh), a fair and progressive person if ever there were one, made a good speech. His arguments were on the issues, not on side calculations for party political gain. The hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty) repeated the point that the devolved Governments were not consulted and that there will be differential treatment across the UK. He argued that the referendum should be held in September—I am not against that at all; the point of agreement is that there should be a different date from 5 May.

The hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing) made some excellent arguments. What can I say about her Gaelic pronunciation, other than that I expect to see her at the Mòd in Thurso by the end of the week, doubtless singing a Gaelic song? For Members who do not know what the Mòd is, it shows that we are more than two nations in one state. The hon. Lady said that she might need to examine her conscience. I would be more than happy to help her do so in the Lobby very shortly.

The hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long) illustrated our veritable rainbow coalition against 5 May. She made practical points about congestion on election day at polling stations, which were underlined by the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson) and by the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon). The hon. Member for Belfast East made a cracking, quick-fire factual speech, and she also hit on the difficulties with the media and with Royal Mail. I only wish she had spoken to the absent Deputy Prime Minister before he landed the hon. Member for Epping Forest in it. [Interruption.] She wrote to him, she says from a sedentary position. She also mentioned the opportunity for cross-party co-operation that has been lost in the north of Ireland. I imagine that outside Scotland cross-party co-operation is more needed, including in Northern Ireland.

I am sure that the fire in the hon. Lady’s belly had nothing to do with the fact that the Faroe Islands have drawn with Northern Ireland. Perhaps this is a good point at which to mention that I am chairman of the all-party Faroe Islands group, which will hold a meeting before the end of the month—everyone is welcome. [Interruption.] I hope there will not be a differential turnout. Despite the Faroe result, Scotland are drawing 2-2 with Spain at the moment. [Interruption.] Not very united at the moment, eh?

The hon. Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis) called for a level playing field, and he highlighted the difference between an election for a national Parliament, one for local councils, and no elections at all in the UK. He discussed his relationship with the leader of the Liberal Democrat party. The rest of us are not sure of any relationship at all, and might not even be able to pick him out in an identity parade. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for South Antrim (Dr McCrea), a renowned political tipster if ever there was, says that the hon. Gentleman is at the zenith of his political career—I am not sure what he means.

The hon. Member for Glasgow South West (Mr Davidson) told us of the reservations of Members of the Scottish Parliament; 5 May was on their timetable first, but it was ignored. My amendment allows 546 other days at least; of course there will be some days that we will wish to subtract. He supported an AV referendum, but he did not want it to be a democratic spoiler for Holyrood. He said that this was a deal between the Liberal Democrats and the Tories in support of Tory cuts. I put it to him that he prefers Tory cuts to independence for Scotland.

Eventually, after three hours we had someone supporting the Government. The hon. Member for Grantham and Stamford (Nick Boles) spoke about jobs, and I can relate again that the hon. Member for South Antrim was tipping him for promotion. I was expecting a Spectator award for him later in the year, but unfortunately he just kept talking and that seemed to slip from his grasp. He was given a good jolt of reality by the hon. Member for Broxbourne (Mr Walker).

The right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) highlighted the fact that the majority of the speakers came from the devolved nations and regions of the UK. The hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams) conceded that the referendum was not ideal, but it was what was on offer. I would ask him to stick to his principles. But to be fair to him, he was one of the few Lib Dems on the big Lib Dem issue in the Chamber. I was counting, and only 3% of the Lib Dem party turned up for the main part of the debate on their big, big issue.

The hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) talked of the premature calculation of a political novice, namely the Deputy Prime Minister. He said that the Deputy Prime Minister was in thrall to 5 May. He pointed out that the public can cope with different elections on the same day, but it is the media, the political system and even the Electoral Commission that struggle. He worried about the Tories turning up in Northern Ireland. In Scotland, they are like the corncrake, almost a protected species.

In a great contribution, my hon. Friend the Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams) said that there were many reasons against 5 May, and that is what the Chamber heard tonight. There are many reasons against 5 May, and there is nothing for 5 May other than a tawdry deal between the governing parties. The hon. Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer) brought humour to the debate and illuminated internal Labour party thinking: vote for a referendum because the Lords will overturn it. He is supporting a change from 5 May, and I will welcome that.

The respect agenda should be alive and if it was, 5 May would not be happening. The Minister is a reasonable man and he batted heroically on a very sticky wicket. He personifies in the Chamber the maxim that one can disagree with a person’s argument but still respect the person. This is not a veto. This is only on one issue. One must have respect for the other legislatures in the UK and they themselves will be consulted on this one issue once. If one opposes this it makes the assumption that the Members of the Scottish Parliament, the Welsh Assembly and the Northern Irish Assembly are unreasonable people.

I should not have to press the amendment to a vote. The Government should accept the arguments of all parties on both sides about the differential treatment of electors and the unfairness of this in the UK, but unfortunately I will have to do so.

Question put, That the amendment be made.

--- Later in debate ---

[Caroline Lucas]

Well, I thank the hon. Member, but I perhaps agree with that slightly less than with some of his other more constructive interventions.

Let me return to my final point, which is about more than what kind of voting system we select, as it is about reconnecting with the public. It is not long ago that we went through the expenses scandal and gained the sense that people were very disillusioned with this House and wanted MPs to clean up politics—whatever their preference of voting system. That is why I hope colleagues will support this amendment to depoliticise the question and give voters the option to express their real views on what electoral system we should have.

Parliament came to seen with contempt by many, because it was seen to be acting in its own interests and not those of the people whom it was supposed to serve. If this amendment is rejected, people will reach the same conclusion once again—that Parliament is acting in its own interests rather than trusting the public to make a decision. A stitched-up referendum that denies people a real choice smacks of the old politics. Tonight we have an opportunity to create a healthy system, based on respect for the electorate and the creation of a real debate on a real question. I urge hon. Members to support amendment 7.

[Mr Harper]

I want to speak to Government amendments 230, 231 and 232, which relate to the question, and I note that similar provisions were tabled by members of the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee, so their names have been added to the Government amendments. For every referendum held under the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000, the Electoral Commission has a statutory duty to consider the wording of the proposed referendum question and to publish a statement of its views on its intelligibility. Where the question is contained in a Bill, this duty is triggered when the Bill is introduced and the report has to be submitted as soon as reasonably practicable after that. The commission completed the process for the referendum on the current voting system on 30 September.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Jenkin]

If my hon. Friend studies the focus group research conducted by the Electoral Commission, he will see that what voters found most confusing about the question was the term “alternative vote”. Voters have very little idea what that is. Now the Electoral Commission has told us that it will produce literature explaining what it is to voters, but would it not be better to give the alternative vote system its proper name, which is, in fact, “optional preferential voting with instant run-off”? That would explain exactly what it is, leaving no ambiguity.

[Mr Harper]

I expected my hon. Friend to make the point that he has just made, because I have seen his amendment to that effect. Although what he says is accurate, I do not think that putting the question in that way would lead to an improvement—

[Mr Jenkin]

It might put people off.

[Mr Harper]

That may well be the case, and my hon. Friend and I might find that a very happy outcome, but when the Government drafted the original question we were very clear about the fact—which was confirmed by the Electoral Commission’s research—that it was neutral and not biased. The Government’s position is that we very much want the referendum, but are neutral about the outcome. The two coalition parties are not neutral about it, but the Government are: that is, Ministers are neutral in their capacity as Ministers. I am glad that the commission found that our question was neutral and not biased.

However, my hon. Friend has hit on a good point: the need to ensure that voters know what they are voting on. We thought it important to include in the Bill the details of the specific form of alternative vote that would be brought into effect in the event of a “yes” vote in the referendum. My hon. Friend characterised it correctly as an optional preferential system. No doubt the Electoral Commission will conduct some education in a neutral and unbiased way. The two campaigns will also explain not just the mechanics of the system, but the outcomes and potential impact of introducing it or retaining the existing system. I am convinced that by the end of the campaign, voters will be in no doubt about the consequences, and will therefore be able to make a very clear decision on 5 May next year.

[George Eustice (Camborne and Redruth) (Con)]

I think that the Electoral Commission’s wording is a big improvement. It removes words such as “adopt”, which had biased connotations in the original. I have studied the commission’s research. According to one of its findings,

“Some people thought that the reason for changing the voting system was because the last election had resulted in a hung Parliament and that perhaps AV would avoid that.”

There is clearly a great deal of confusion about AV, which will actually lead to more rather than fewer hung Parliaments.

There is a second problem. In fact, AV is simply a second-rate version of first past the post. Let me make another suggestion about the wording. Perhaps it should refer to a “one person, one vote” system, which is what we have now, versus a multiple voting system in which some people receive more votes than others—which is basically what AV is.

[Mr Harper]

I think that my hon. Friend is anticipating the referendum campaign. Tempted though I am, he would not expect Ministers to be drawn into a debate about the merits of different electoral systems at the Dispatch Box. That will take place when we have the referendum. However, he made a good point about the need to engage in a good debate about the issue. The Electoral Commission did say in its research findings that some members of the public had trouble with language when it came to the use of the words “Parliament” and “House of Commons”. Thinking back to the previous debate and the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Grantham and Stamford (Nick Boles), we in this House should consider members of the public who do not take an enormous interest in, or spend a great deal of time on, these issues, important though we think they are. We need to make sure we address those people, and not just ourselves.

It is very important that the referendum question should be clear and simple to understand. The Government welcome the commission’s helpful report. I have read it carefully and, based on the evidence that the commission presented, we have decided to accept its redrafted question.

[Sir Alan Beith]

I must, on the grounds of language simplicity, draw my hon. Friend’s attention to the Welsh version in Government amendment 231. Although my understanding of Welsh is not as wide and deep as I would like it to be, I have not often seen the abbreviation “DU” used for “United Kingdom” in Welsh. I therefore wonder whether it would be at all familiar to most voters, and whether it would not be better to spell out “United Kingdom” in Welsh.

[Mr Harper]

I am very interested in my right hon. Friend’s views. Having a great deal of respect for the Welsh language, and being frank about my inability to speak it, I did not want to abuse it by reading out the Welsh version of the question. I did not intend to do that, and I am not going to do so. I have taken the precaution of talking to my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Wales. He is a Welsh speaker, and he has consulted a number of colleagues. We do not think there is a problem with the language. The Electoral Commission did highlight one potential problem to do with the yes/no question and words such as “should” and “should not” in Welsh. It felt that there was a risk but that, on balance, this was an improvement. We have taken its analysis on board and we have accepted its drafting rather than changing it, because if we were to change it we would have to go through another process of assessing the accessibility.

The Government consider that the new version is no less neutral than the previous one. We do not think it alters in any way the choice that the question puts to the public, but we do think it is clearer and easier to understand, which is why we have accepted it. Our amendments therefore insert the new question into clause 1 in English and Welsh, and it is replicated in English only in the form of the ballot paper, which is addressed in schedule 2. This is supported by members of the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee, and I hope the House will support it as well.

Let me make a point about amendment 7, to which the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) spoke. It refers back to the point to which the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) drew attention. They were both right that many Liberal Democrat colleagues support either the single transferable vote or some other form of proportional system, whereas most Conservative party colleagues do not. The nature of a coalition Government is that we have to reach a compromise, however, and the compromise we have reached is that Conservatives have agreed to put the choice to the public and Liberal Democrats have had to accept that although they have a vote on a system that they prefer to first past the post, that is not everything they would have hoped for. It has been rightly said that there is not a majority in this House in favour of putting a referendum question to the public on proportional representation, and I think Liberal Democrat colleagues have been entirely sensible in reaching a compromise—as, I think, have Conservative colleagues as well. We on the Government Benches are clear that we want to put this question to the public. I agree with the hon. Lady that the public, not politicians, should choose the voting system. We are going to give that choice to the public and see whether they want to stick with the existing system or change it.

[Caroline Lucas]

I do not quite understand how the Minister can say he is happy for the public to make the decision at the same time as closing down the very options that the public will make that decision on. I think that, again, we have to say that this is about trusting the public. It is not about what the Government or the Lib Dems want, or what any individual Members want. It is about giving the public the right to choose.

[Mr Harper]

The hon. Lady has chosen a selection of things to put in front of the public in her amendment; it is just a different choice from that proposed by the Government. It is no more or less the choice of the public, however. Unless we were to have a ballot paper that listed every single possible electoral system in the entire universe that has ever been thought of, it will always, to some extent, be a choice designed by politicians.

[Caroline Lucas]

rose—

[Mr Harper]

Let me just finish responding to the previous intervention. Those on this side of the House have made a judgment, we are going to put that question to the public, and members of the coalition parties will then campaign vigorously. I think I have detected that Opposition Members too will be on both sides of the debate. We will have that battle and the public will make a decision.

[Caroline Lucas]

I just wish to explain that the options we have proposed for the ballot paper are not ones that we picked out of a hat at random. We were trying to create a set of questions that were most likely to be acceptable to the House by, for example, including both AV, because that was what was in the original question, and those existing electoral systems already used in some form or another in the United Kingdom. We were not proposing a random set of choices. Of course we cannot give 100 different options, but we can propose those voting systems that people in this country are more or less familiar with, perhaps because they have voted for the Welsh Assembly or the Scottish Parliament. There is a rationale behind what we are doing, and this is not a random set of options.

[Mr Harper]

It sounds as if the hon. Lady and those on the Government Benches are doing the same thing; we are putting to the House amendments that we think will get support. If she wishes to test hers and we test ours, we will see which of us has made the right judgment about which will get the support of the majority of Members in this House.

[Mr MacNeil]

Surely it is better to give the public a choice of three or perhaps four electoral systems that are commonly used throughout the United Kingdom, rather than a very narrow restricted choice of two, which seem to have been the subject of some sort of agreement in the smoke-filled rooms of this new coalition. Surely the public should be trusted and allowed to choose for themselves.

[Mr Harper]

Opposition Members seem awfully obsessed by smoke-filled rooms. Given that this House voted in the previous Parliament to ban smoking in public places, I have not detected a lot of smoke in any of the rooms where we have had our discussions.

As I said, choices will be put to the House this evening; if the opinion of the House is tested, the House can make a judgment about which of the questions it finds most acceptable. I hope that hon. Members will support the amendments that I have proposed, which the Government have tabled. The hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion is perfectly free to test hers too, and we will see where the balance of opinion in the House lies. Given that we have only 18 minutes left and we are dealing with a number of amendments, I shall draw my remarks to a close and allow the debate to continue.

[Chris Bryant]

May I say first to the Minister that one of the things that has crept into the contributions made from that Dispatch Box of late is a differentiation of a Minister as a Minister from a Minister when he or she is not acting in a ministerial capacity in some way? That is a dangerous concept to begin to adumbrate, because Ministers have to act, to some degree, with collective responsibility. Once that starts to fall apart, government starts to fall apart.

[Mr Harper]

I made it clear that the coalition agreement says that there will be, and the Government’s policy is for there to be, a referendum on the voting system, offering a choice between first past the post and the alternative vote. The Government do not have a view on the outcome, and that has been made clear. The coalition agreement explicitly says that the coalition parties will campaign on different sides, so I do not think that there is any risk to collective responsibility.

[Chris Bryant]

I understand the Minister’s point, but I just want to help him avoid becoming too much like the Deputy Prime Minister, because we would not want him to morph into a Liberal Democrat—I am sure he would not want that either. [Interruption.] The Deputy Prime Minister started with this concept of a personal idea on the situation in Iraq, so I just gently say that to the Minister.

The one thing on which I wholeheartedly agree with the Minister is what he said about Government amendments 230, 231 and 232 on changing the precise wording of the question. I think that the Electoral Commission has done a good job. It has looked at this and given us a better question, and we wholeheartedly support that. However, that is not the real point. The real difficulty was pointed out by the hon. Member for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin), who said that the bit that the Electoral Commission discovered that most people did not fully understand is what “alternative vote” means. I am not going to go down the route of supporting his amendment 244, which proposes

“optional preferential voting with instant runoff”

because I do not think that his is an unbiased question and I do not think it is intended to be helpful. It was presented with the usual finish and cheek with which he presents his arguments to the House.