Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Mark Durkan Excerpts

Tuesday 2nd November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr MacNeil]

Northern Ireland. I did notice that the right hon. Gentleman said the regions of the UK—

[Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)]

You can say “north of Ireland” to me!

[Mr MacNeil]

I’ve got the north to my left; I’ve got Northern Ireland to my right. I’m stuck in the middle with you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

--- Later in debate ---

[Margaret Curran]

I am indeed. I was simply drawing a parallel of the last Tory Government, which occurs to many Scots, between this Government’s approach and the behaviour .

The Bill’s provisions will cut across, and distract attention from, the very important Scottish Parliament election to be held next year. It is clear that they were produced in haste, with no consultation. There has been no persuasion in the Government’s arguments, just assertion. They fly in the face of Scottish experience, learn nothing from the Gould report and take nothing from what has happened in previous Scottish Parliament elections. They bear all the hallmarks of a political fix. Rather than an attempt to deliver genuine democratic progress, they are a mess, and they should be opposed.

[Mark Durkan]

Amendment 18 provides for the combination of three polls—the referendum, the Northern Ireland Assembly election and the Northern Ireland local elections. It will replace clause 4(4), and it provides that the polls are to be taken together on 5 May. The subsection that it replaces states:

“Where the date of the poll for”

Assembly or Northern Ireland local elections

“is the same as the date of the poll for the referendum, the polls are to be taken together”.

That would provide for the possibility that the Assembly or local elections might not be on the same day.

Clause 4(4) also allows sections 31 or 32 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 to apply. Under section 31, even though the due date for the election would be the first Thursday in May 2011, in other words 5 May, it could take place two months either side of that. Section 32 provides for a situation in which there was something of a collapse of the Assembly, with the First or Deputy First Minister resigning and not being replaced. I do not want to speculate on that as a possibility, but it is not an absolute political impossibility. In that instance, it would fall to the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland to name another date, which would not have to be within two months either way.

It seems to me that amendment 18 flies in the face of that, because it will legislate for the three polls to be on the one day regardless. I wonder whether the Government are creating unnecessary tension with existing legislation, because the amendment removes the possibility left open in the Bill. I would appreciate the Minister addressing that point.

Amendments 158 to 179 to schedule 8, all relate to Northern Ireland. Amendment 162 states:

“The Chief Electoral Officer may not decide that the proceedings on the issue and receipt of postal ballot papers in respect of the referendum and the relevant elections are to be taken together unless the Chief Counting Officer agrees.”

The office of the chief electoral officer in Northern Ireland is a useful and important one. It normally falls to that officer to arrange Assembly elections, local elections, and—under the guidance and control of statute—any combination arrangements for such polls. Amendment 162 opens up the possibility of the chief electoral officer having the issue and receipt of the ballot papers for all three polls together. However, if for some reason the UK chief counting officer does not agree with that, it does not happen. We seek assurances on the effect of that on the two polls that are in the purview of the chief electoral officer, and that it will not mean that the chief electoral officer is somehow prohibited from going ahead with bespoke combination arrangements for the two Northern Ireland elections.

[Mr Dodds]

Will the hon. Gentleman confirm that he is arguing that Government amendment 18 in some way supersedes the ability of the Northern Ireland Assembly to move the election within a period of two months if they so wished? My understanding is that the amendment does not do that, but simply says that, if the referendum and the election were to be held on that date, they would be taken together. The hon. Gentleman seems to be arguing something different.

[Mark Durkan]

I raise this because if one compares clause 4(4) with the text of amendment 18, it does seem to make a change. The text in the Bill allows for the possibility that is provided for in sections 31 and 32 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998. The amendment presumes and requires that the referendum and election happen together. There could be tension there, so I have asked the Minister to clarify or explain that. I am just puzzled by the wording. When one sees such variance in the words, one has to ask whether it is inadvertent or whether there is an intention behind it.

Amendment 162 raises the possibility of the UK chief counting officer disagreeing with the chief electoral officer for Northern Ireland in respect of the arrangements for combining the issue and receipt of postal ballots. Hon. Members might say that that is unlikely to happen. If that is the case, why is the amendment legislating for such a possibility and what are the implications for the conduct of the other elections and the issue of the postal ballot? Again, I seek clarification from the Minister. In a UK-wide referendum on the voting system, representations could be made to the chief counting officer through the Electoral Commission and so on. There could be legal challenges and threats of legal challenges from a well-resourced campaign that wants to disrupt or create confusion during the election. The chief counting officer might be minded to say that the referendum postal ballot papers have to be handled separately, or some other pressure could cause disagreement. It could be that the chief electoral officer for Northern Ireland does not get agreement from the chief counting officer. In such cases, what is the price of that possibility and how will it impact on the arrangements not just for the referendum postal ballot papers but for the issue and receipt of the postal ballot papers for the local elections and the Assembly?

Finally, amendment 177, to which the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) referred, is a big amendment. Proposed new paragraph 44(2) to schedule 8 states:

“The spoilt postal ballot paper may not be replaced unless all the postal ballot papers issued to the person are returned.”

If we are providing for that in law, is it clearly stated in form 2—the form that is to apply in relation to a declaration of identity? The form provides advice on what to do in the case of a spoiled ballot, but it does not clearly state that one cannot return and have a spoiled ballot replaced unless all three forms are returned. There is confusion, so we need to see whether the effect of this amendment is properly covered, addressed and clearly expressed in the information that will be given to voters. It might be that voters reading the form as it is in the Bill will believe that they can have the referendum ballot paper replaced separately. If the Government are to go ahead with this amendment, they will have to make further amendments to the forms that are already in the Bill, or to the amended forms that they have provided for in this group of amendments.

[Geraint Davies]

As a member of the Welsh Affairs Committee, which has taken a considerable amount of evidence on this subject, I feel that I can talk about the potential confusion that surrounds the combination of polls that we face. The House may be interested in the testimony of Philip Johnson, the chair of the Welsh branch of the Association of Electoral Administrators. He said:

“The capacity for confusion is immense.”

He said that 2015, when there will be the combination of polls, could be horrendous. He is not talking about voter confusion over policy issues, which will, I think, be a significant problem for our democracy.

In Wales, where we have a Labour Government, various proposals will be made to carry on, revive and enliven the policies in Wales. Alongside that, Labour will put forward a different set of proposals on focus and investment to take to the UK Parliament. Therefore, there will be quite different proposals from the same party for different elections on the same day. What is more, there may be varying views on alternative voting. Furthermore, we will have different constituencies for the Assembly and for the UK parliamentary election. For example, I might be standing as the candidate for Swansea West and, at the same time, voters could be asked to vote Labour for the Assembly Member for Swansea Central. Obviously, that could be confusing to voters. We could have one party making different proposals in the same area.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kevin Brennan]

We have found out what respect means to the hon. Lady. For me it means having mutual respect, and when the previous Administration offered devolved government to people in England, they turned it down. It is a matter of respect that if people in England do not want devolved government, that is a matter for them. My point is that the Prime Minister took the trouble to visit the capitals of Wales and Scotland, as well as Belfast, to talk to the devolved Administrations. He promised a relationship of respect, despite the fact that the Conservative party was originally vehemently opposed to devolution, and said that things had changed and the relationship was new. However, because of the needs of he who shall not be named, the Government had to abandon that respect agenda and provide for the combination of polls.

[Mark Durkan]

I thank my hon. Friend for emphasising the principles of the respect agenda concerning the devolved Administrations, but it should also apply to this Chamber. Is it not odd to have a Deputy Prime Minister who relies on deputies to appear in the Chamber more than he does?

[Kevin Brennan]

I fear that I will test your patience, Mr Deputy Speaker, if I make a further reference to he who shall not be named, but clearly my hon. Friend is absolutely correct. My point, Mr Deputy Prime Minister—I mean Mr Deputy Speaker; that was a Freudian slip, and he shall be named after all. My point, Mr Deputy Speaker, is that many Labour Members are favourably inclined towards electoral reform, but others are not. Many of us would have looked forward to the opportunity—it was in our manifesto—of putting the question to the British people and allowing them to decide in a clean, clear referendum for which that was the sole focus of the discussion. That could easily have happened, and that is exactly what should have happened.

As that did not happen, many of us who are favourably inclined towards electoral reform are severely demotivated in terms of putting our weight behind what seems to be a venture with no respect for those of us who might support that agenda. That may suit many hon. Members on both sides of the House who do not agree with electoral reform, but I think it is a terrible shame, because we will all devote our energy to the important national elections in the devolved Administrations, and the referendum will be ignored during those elections. I shall vote in favour of the alternative vote in the referendum, but I fear that it will be lost. Boy, won’t that be awkward for he who must not be named!

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Harper]

I am grateful, Mr Deputy Speaker.

I have just one further point. The hon. Member for Foyle also raised an issue about whether the language on the forms was clear enough about spoiled ballot papers. The form mentions the need to return all the spoiled papers, but that might leave some ambiguity, so I will reflect further on it. There are two things worth saying. We have an opportunity to deal with the issue, but the hon. Gentleman will know that at an earlier stage of our proceedings, the House agreed to an amendment that gave the Electoral Commission permission to make the forms—but not the ballot papers—more accessible for disabled people and easier for voters to understand. To be clear, if, after the Bill receives its Royal Assent, as I hope it does, any further issues are raised as to whether the forms are as clear as they could be, the Electoral Commission will have the power to make those changes to facilitate accessibility or make the forms easier to use.

[Mark Durkan]

I thank the Minister for those particular assurances, but on my reading, form 3A under schedule 8 does not explain that if one ballot is spoiled, they all have to be returned. That is not at all clear in the wording. Any effective amendment would need to lead to a change of wording on the form, perhaps through the channel that the Minister has described.

[Mr Harper]

I agree. I said that I thought the hon. Gentleman made a fair point. I will go away, think about whether it is a real concern—it is a good point—and decide on the best way to deal with it. I hope that that is helpful. I believe that I have addressed the points made by hon. Members and I hope that the House will agree to the Government amendments.

Amendment 18 agreed to.

Amendment made: 19, page 3, leave out lines 31 and 32.—(Mr Harper.)

Schedule 7

Combination of polls: Scotland

Amendments made: 44, page 212, leave out lines 10 and 11 and insert—

‘“the 2010 Order” means the Scottish Parliament (Elections etc.) Order 2010;’.

Amendment 45, page 212, line 15, leave out from ‘Article’ to ‘Order’ and insert ‘14 of the 2010’.

Amendment 46, page 212, line 32, leave out ‘2007’ and insert ‘2010’.

Amendment 47, page 212, line 41, leave out ‘19 of the 2007’ and insert ‘18 of the 2010’.

Amendment 48, page 213, line 9, leave out ‘20 of the 2007’ and insert ‘19 of the 2010’.

Amendment 49, page 213, line 19, leave out ‘2007’ and insert ‘2010’.

Amendment 50, page 213, line 31, leave out ‘2007’ and insert ‘2010’.

Amendment 51, page 214, line 34, leave out ‘2007’ and insert ‘2010’.

Amendment 52, page 215, line 5, leave out ‘2007’ and insert ‘2010’.

Amendment 53, page 216, line 1, leave out ‘second sentence of’ and insert ‘requirement for separate ballot boxes in’.

Amendment 54, page 216, line 33, leave out ‘and (12)’.

Amendment 55, page 216, line 40, leave out ‘(13)’ and insert ‘(12)’.

Amendment 56, page 218, line 18, leave out ‘46(7)’ and insert ‘46(6)’.

Amendment 57, page 218, line 35, leave out ‘46(7)’ and insert ‘46(6)’.

Amendment 58, page 218, line 38, leave out ‘2007’ and insert ‘2010’.

Amendment 59, page 219, line 11, leave out ‘47(5)’ and insert ‘47(4)’.

Amendment 60, page 219, line 21, leave out ‘48(7)(a)’ and insert ‘48(6)(a)’.

Amendment 61, page 219, line 35, leave out ‘48(9)’ and insert ‘48(8)’.

Amendment 62, page 220, line 5, leave out ‘49(8)’ and insert ‘49(7)’.

Amendment 63, page 220, line 7, leave out ‘49(12)’ and insert ‘49(10)’.

Amendment 64, page 220, line 24, leave out ‘“constituency returning officer”’ and insert ‘“CRO”’.

Amendment 65, page 220, line 29, leave out from ‘53(1)’ to first ‘reference’ in line 30 and insert ‘and (2) of the Scottish Parliamentary Election Rules, a’.

Amendment 66, page 220, line 31, leave out from ‘referendum’ to ‘does’ in line 32 and insert—

‘( ) Rule 53(2)(g) of those rules’.

Amendment 67, page 220, line 37, leave out ‘53(1)(a)’ and insert ‘53(2)(a)’.

Amendment 68, page 220, line 38, leave out paragraph 40 and insert—

‘40 Rule 53(2) of the Scottish Parliamentary Election Rules has effect as if “counting officer” were substituted for “CRO” in each place.’.

Amendment 69, page 221, line 2, leave out ‘53(3)’ and insert ‘53(4)’.

Amendment 70, page 222, line 27, leave out ‘2007’ and insert ‘2010’.

Amendment 71, page 222, line 33, leave out ‘2007’ and insert ‘2010’.

Amendment 72, page 223, line 8, leave out sub-paragraph (5) and insert—

‘(5) The counting officer must, on request, provide an election agent for the Scottish parliamentary election with a copy of the statement relating to that election.’.

Amendment 73, page 224, line 12, leave out ‘2007’ and insert ‘2010’.

Amendment 74, page 225, line 16, leave out from ‘the’ to ‘and’ in line 17 and insert ‘polling register (within the meaning given in Article 2(1) of the 2010 Order),’.

Amendment 75, page 225, line 24, leave out ‘69(1)(e), (f) and (h)’ and insert ‘69(1)(c), (d) and (f)’.

Amendment 76, page 225, line 27, leave out from first ‘the’ to end of line 28 and insert ‘CRO were to the counting officer’.

Amendment 77, page 225, line 36, leave out ‘72’ and insert ‘72(4), 75(2) or 77(1)’.

Amendment 78, page 226, line 3, leave out sub-paragraphs (2) and (3) and insert—

‘(2) Rule 78 of the Scottish Parliamentary Election Rules has effect as if it were amended in accordance with sub-paragraphs (3) and (3A).

(3) In paragraph (2), after “ CRO” insert “or counting officer”.

(3A) For paragraph (3) substitute—

“(3) After the close of any polls that are being taken together with the poll that has been abandoned, the counting officer must—

(a) separate the ballot papers for the abandoned poll, and

(b) deliver or cause to be delivered to the CRO the ballot papers and other documents relating to the abandoned poll.

(3A) Paragraphs (4) to (9) apply in relation to the poll that has been abandoned.”’.

Amendment 79, page 226, line 28, leave out ‘72(8)’ and insert ‘78(10)’.

Amendment 80, page 226, line 32, leave out ‘Scottish Parliament (Elections etc.) Order 2007 (S.I. 2007/937)’ and insert ‘2010 Order’.

Amendment 81, page 227, line 1, leave out ‘20A(4) or 20B(3)(a)’ and insert ‘20(4)(b), 21(4)(b) or 22(3)(b)’.

Amendment 82, page 227, line 2, leave out ‘2007’ and insert ‘2010’.

Amendment 83, page 227, line 4, leave out ‘28’ and insert ‘30’.

Amendment 84, page 227, line 5, leave out ‘2007’ and insert ‘2010’.

Amendment 85, page 227, line 9,, leave out ‘(9)’ and insert ‘(10)’.

Amendment 86, page 227,, leave out lines 22 to 25.

Amendment 87, page 228, line 8, at end insert—

‘“proxy postal voters list” includes the list kept under paragraph 8(6) of Schedule3 to the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Act 2010;”;’.

Amendment 88, page 228, line 27, leave out ‘“constituency returning officer”’ and insert ‘“CRO”’.

Amendment 89, page 228, line 35, leave out ‘constituency returning officer’ and insert ‘CRO’.

Amendment 90, page 228, line 40, before ‘In’ insert—

‘In sub-paragraph (1)—

(a) for “CRO” substitute “relevant returning or counting officer”;

(b) for “CRO’s” substitute “relevant returning or counting officer’s”.’.

Amendment 91, page 228, line 40, leave out ‘sub-paragraphs (1) and (2), for “constituency returning officer”’ and insert ‘sub-paragraph (2), for “CRO”’.

Amendment 92, page 229,, leave out lines 24 and 25 and insert—

(a) the CRO and members of the CRO’s staff;’.

Amendment 93, page 230, line 13, leave out ‘“constituency returning officer”’ and insert ‘“CRO”’.

Amendment 94, page 230, line 18, leave out ‘(8)’ and insert ‘(9)’.

Amendment 95, page 230, line 18, leave out ‘“constituency returning officer”’ and insert ‘“CRO”’.

Amendment 96, page 230, line 21, leave out ‘(5)’ and insert ‘(6)’.

Amendment 97, page 230, line 22, leave out ‘(8)’ and insert ‘(9)’.

Amendment 98, page 230, line 23, leave out ‘“(8A)’ and insert ‘“(9A)’.

Amendment 99, page 230, line 24, leave out ‘(6) or (9)’ and insert ‘(7) or (10)’.

Amendment 100, page 230, line 28, leave out ‘(10)’ and insert ‘(11)’.

Amendment 101, page 231, line 14, leave out ‘32(5)’ and insert ‘31(5)’.

Amendment 102, page 231, line 29, leave out ‘32(5)’ and insert ‘31(5)’.

Amendment 103, page 231, line 21, leave out ‘constituency returning officer’ and insert ‘CRO’.

Amendment 104, page 232, line 15, leave out ‘7(7)’ and insert ‘9(7)’.

Amendment 105, page 232, line 17, leave out ‘constituency returning officer’ and insert ‘CRO’.

Amendment 106, page 232, column2, leave out lines 19 and 20.

Amendment 107, page 233,, leave out lines 4 to 10.

Amendment 108, page 233, line 36, leave out ‘“constituency returning officer”’ and insert ‘“CRO”’.

Amendment 109, page 233, line 42, leave out ‘“constituency returning officer”’ and insert ‘“CRO”’.

Amendment 110, page 234, line 3, before ‘In’ insert—

‘“In sub-paragraph (1)—

(a) for “CRO” substitute “relevant returning or counting officer”;

(b) for “CRO’s” substitute “relevant returning or counting officer’s”.’.

Amendment 111, page 234, line 3, leave out ‘sub-paragraphs (1) and (2), for “constituency returning officer”’ and insert ‘sub-paragraph (2), for “CRO”’.

Amendment 112, page 234, line 7, leave out ‘“constituency returning officer”’ and insert ‘“CRO”’.

Amendment 113, page 234, line 10, leave out ‘“constituency returning officer”’ and insert ‘“CRO”’.

Amendment 114, page 234, line 12, leave out ‘“constituency returning officer”’ and insert ‘“CRO”’.

Amendment 115, page 234, line 15, leave out ‘“constituency returning officer”’ and insert ‘“CRO”’.

Amendment 116, page 235, line 35, leave out ‘20A’ and insert ‘21’.

Amendment 117, page 235, line 36, leave out ‘20B’ and insert ‘22’.

Amendment 118, page 236, line 18, leave out ‘“constituency returning officer”’ and insert ‘“CRO”’.

Amendment 119, page 236, line 29, leave out from ‘sub-paragraph (4)’ to end of line 30 and insert

‘(a) for “CRO’s” substitute “relevant returning or counting officer’s”; (b) after “then” insert “lock the ballot box (if it has a lock) and”’.’.

Amendment 120, page 236, line 31, leave out ‘“constituency returning officer”’ and insert ‘“CRO”’.

Amendment 121, page 236, line 35, leave out ‘“constituency returning officer”’ and insert ‘“CRO”’.

Amendment 122, page 236, line 41, leave out ‘“constituency returning officer”’ and insert ‘“CRO”’.

Amendment 123, page 236, line 43, leave out ‘(7)’ and insert ‘(10)’.

Amendment 124, page 237, line 2, leave out ‘“constituency returning officer”’ and insert ‘“CRO”’.

Amendment 125, page 237, line 3, column2, at end insert—

‘In sub-paragraph (4)(c), for “CRO’s” substitute “relevant returning or counting officer’s”.’.

Amendment 126, page 237, line 5, leave out ‘20A’ and insert ‘21’.

Amendment 127, page 237, line 5, leave out ‘“constituency returning officer”’ and insert ‘“CRO”’.

Amendment 128, page 237, line 6, column 2, at end insert—

‘In sub-paragraph (4)(c), for “CRO’s” substitute “relevant returning or counting officer’s”.’.

Amendment 129, page 237, line 9, leave out ‘20B’ and insert ‘22’.

Amendment 130, page 237, line 9, leave out ‘“constituency returning officer”’ and insert ‘“CRO”’.

Amendment 131, page 237, line 10, column 2, at end insert—

‘In sub-paragraphs (3)(c) and (5), for “CRO’s” substitute “relevant returning or counting officer’s”.’.

Amendment 132, page 237, line 13, leave out ‘lock and’.

Amendment 133, page 237, line 16, leave out ‘21’ and insert ‘23’.

Amendment 134, page 237, line 16, leave out ‘“constituency returning officer”’ and insert ‘“CRO”’.

Amendment 135, page 237, line 19, leave out ‘22’ and insert ‘24’.

Amendment 136, page 237, line 19, leave out ‘(3), for “constituency returning officer”’ and insert ‘(2), for “returning officer”, and for “CRO”,’.

Amendment 137, page 237, line 24, column2, at end insert—

‘In sub-paragraph (3)—

(a) for “CRO” substitute “relevant returning or counting officer”;

(b) for “CRO’s” substitute “relevant returning or counting officer’s”.’

Amendment 138, page 237, line 25, leave out ‘23’ and insert ‘25’.

Amendment 139, page 237, line 26, leave out ‘constituency returning officer’ and insert ‘CRO’.

Amendment 140, page 237, line 30, leave out ‘24’ and insert ‘26’.

Amendment 141, page 237, line 30, leave out ‘“constituency returning officer”’ and insert ‘“CRO”’.

Amendment 142, page 237, line 35, leave out ‘25’ and insert ‘27’.

Amendment 143, page 237, line 35, leave out ‘“constituency returning officer”’ and insert ‘“CRO”’.

Amendment 144, page 237, line 38, leave out ‘26’ and insert ‘28’.

Amendment 145, page 237, line 38, leave out ‘“constituency returning officer”’ and insert ‘“CRO”’.

Amendment 146, page 237, line 41, leave out ‘27’ and insert ‘29’.

Amendment 147, page 238, line 2, leave out ‘28’ and insert ‘30’.

Amendment 148, page 238, column2, leave out lines 2 to 48 and insert—

‘In sub-paragraph (1)—

(a) for the words before sub-paragraph (a) substitute “The relevant returning or counting officer shall retain, together with the documents mentioned in rule 69(1) of the Scottish Parliamentary Election Rules and rule 49 of the referendum rules”;

(b) in paragraph (a), for the words from “the election to which” to the end substitute “the election or referendum to which it relates and the area to which it relates”;

(c) in paragraph (b), at the end insert “in respect of the election, and a completed statement in the form set out in Form 10 in Part 3 of Schedule 7 to the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Act 2010 in respect of the referendum”.’

Amendment 149, page 239, line 3, leave out ‘53(1)(g)’ and insert ‘53(2)(g)’.

Amendment 150, page 239, line 6, leave out ‘“constituency returning officer”’ and insert ‘“CRO”’.

Amendment 151, page 239, leave out lines 9 to 12.

Amendment 152, page 239, line 13, leave out ‘68 and 69’ and insert ‘68, 69, 70 and 71(1)’.

Amendment 153, page 239, leave out lines 29 to 38 and insert—

‘(i) in relation to a document or packet relating to the Scottish parliamentary election, rules 68, 69, 70 and 71(1) of the Scottish Parliamentary Election Rules;

(ii) in relation to a document or packet relating to the referendum, rules 50 and 51 of the referendum rules.”’.

Amendment 154, page 239, line 39, leave out from ‘sub-paragraph (4)’ to end of line 42 and insert ‘for “CRO”’.

Amendment 155, page 240, leave out line 9.

Amendment 156, page 245, line 5 (Form 4—Form of postal voting statement (to be used for Scottish parliamentary election where proceedings on issue and receipt of postal ballot papers not combined)).

Amendment 157, page 251, line 9 (Form 10—Statement as to postal ballot papers for the referendum).—(Mr Harper.)



Schedule 8

Combination of polls: Northern Ireland

Amendments made: 158, page 255, line 6, at end insert—

(ba) Part 5 of the Representation of the People (Northern Ireland) Regulations 2008 (S.I. 2009/1741) or Part 3 of Schedule 2 to the Local Elections (Northern Ireland) Order 1985 (S.I. 1985/454) (issue and receipt of postal ballot papers);’.

Amendment 159, page 255, line 25, at end insert—

(0) rule 16A (corresponding number list);’.

Amendment 160, page 255, line 36, at end insert—

( ) a provision referred to in sub-paragraph (1)(ba), (3)(c) or (h) or (4)(b),’.

Amendment 161, page 255, line 39, leave out paragraphs (b) and (c) and insert—

( ) rule 16A of the Local Elections Rules to the extent that it relates to ballot papers issued in pursuance of rule 21(1) of those rules, or’.

Amendment 162, page 255, line 44, at end insert—

‘( ) The Chief Electoral Officer may not decide that the proceedings on the issue and receipt of postal ballot papers in respect of the referendum and the relevant elections are to be taken together unless the Chief Counting Officer agrees.’.

Amendment 163, page 256, line 2, leave out ‘, 3’ and insert ‘to 3B’.

Amendment 164, page 256, line 13, at end insert—

( ) rule 16A of the Local Elections Rules.’.

Amendment 165, page 256, line 16, at end insert—

( ) rule 16A(2) of the Local Elections Rules.’.

Amendment 166, page 256, line 25, at end insert—

( ) rule 26(1) of the Local Elections Rules.’.

Amendment 167, page 256, line 31, at end insert—

( ) rule 16A of the Local Elections Rules.’.

Amendment 168, page 257, line 31, leave out ‘this paragraph’ and insert ‘sub-paragraph (2)’.

Amendment 169, page 257, line 33, at end insert—

‘(4) The declaration of identity to be used by those entitled to vote by post in the Assembly election must be in the form set out in Form 3A in Part 2 of this Schedule.

(5) Sub-paragraph (4) applies instead of the requirement in rule 24(1) of the Assembly Elections Rules for a declaration of identity to be in a particular form.

(6) The declaration of identity to be used by those entitled to vote by post in the local election must be in the form set out in Form 3B in Part 2 of this Schedule.

(7) Sub-paragraph (6) applies instead of the requirement in rule 21(1) of the Local Elections Rules for a declaration of identity to be in a particular form.’.

Amendment 170, page 258, line 16, at end insert—

(0) rule 26(3)(e) of the Local Elections Rules.’.

Amendment 171, page 258, line 18, at end insert—

( ) rule 26(3ZC) of the Local Elections Rules.’.

Amendment 172, page 260, line 38, at end insert—

22A (1) This paragraph applies where the Chief Electoral Officer decides that the proceedings on the issue and receipt of postal ballot papers in respect of the referendum and the relevant elections are to be taken together.

(2) If the Chief Electoral Officer thinks fit, he or she may require the relevant registration officer to produce—

(a) a combined postal voters list, consisting of the things that would otherwise be included in—

(i) the postal voters list for the referendum;

(ii) the list under paragraph 2(4)(a) of Part 1 of Schedule 2 to the Local Elections Order;

(iii) the list under section 7(4)(a) of the Representation of the People Act 1985 as applied for the purposes of Assembly elections by Article 3(1) of, and Schedule 1 to, the Northern Ireland Assembly (Elections) Order 2001;

(b) a combined proxy postal voters list, consisting of the things that would otherwise be included in—

(i) the proxy postal voters list for the referendum;

(ii) the list under paragraph 4(8) of Part 1 of Schedule 2 to the Local Elections Order;

(iii) the list under section 9(9) of the Representation of the People Act 1985 as applied for the purposes of Assembly elections by Article 3(1) of, and Schedule 1 to, the Northern Ireland Assembly (Elections) Order 2001.’.

Amendment 173, page 265, line 41, at end insert—

‘( ) Where lists are prepared as mentioned in paragraph 7(2), 8(2) or 16(1)—

(a) rules 49(1)(b) and 51 of the referendum rules apply to the packets of those lists;

(b) rule 58(1) of the Local Elections Rules applies as if sub-paragraph (da), so far is it relates to those lists, were omitted.’.

Amendment 174, page 266, line 6, after ‘rule’ insert ‘60 or’.

Amendment 175, page 266, line 9, after ‘61’ insert ‘or 63’.

Amendment 176, page 266, line 42, leave out ‘61(2)’ insert ‘64(1) to (6)’.—(Mr Harper.)



Amendment proposed: 177, page 266, line 42, at end insert—

Part 1A

Postal voting

Interpretation

39 In this Part—

“the 2008 Regulations” means—the Representation of the People (Northern Ireland) Regulations 2008 (S.I. 2008/1741) as applied for purposes of the referendum by Part 3 of Schedule4, and those regulations as applied for the purposes of Assembly elections by Article 3(2) of, and Schedule 2 to, the Northern Ireland Assembly (Elections) Order 2001 (S.I. 2001/2599);

(a) the Representation of the People (Northern Ireland) Regulations 2008 (S.I. 2008/1741) as applied for purposes of the referendum by Part 3 of Schedule4, and

(b) those regulations as applied for the purposes of Assembly elections by Article 3(2) of, and Schedule 2 to, the Northern Ireland Assembly (Elections) Order 2001 (S.I. 2001/2599);

“the Local Elections Order” means the Local Elections (Northern Ireland) Order 1985 (S.I. 1985/454).

Attendance at proceedings on issue and receipt of postal ballot papers

40 (1) This paragraph applies where the Chief Electoral Officer decides that the proceedings on the issue and receipt of postal ballot papers in respect of the referendum and the relevant elections are to be taken together.

(2) The following provisions have effect as if the persons listed in them included persons who would be entitled to be present at the proceedings on the issue or receipt of postal ballot papers in respect of the referendum or a relevant election if those proceedings were taken on their own.

(3) The provisions are—

(a) regulation 72 of the 2008 Regulations;

(b) paragraph 3(1) of Part 3 of Schedule 2 to the Local Elections Order.

Procedure on issue of postal ballot papers

41 (1) This paragraph applies where—

(a) the Chief Electoral Officer decides that the proceedings on the issue and receipt of postal ballot papers in respect of the referendum and the relevant elections are to be taken together, and

(b) a combined postal voters list or proxy postal voters list is produced by virtue of paragraph 22A.

(2) In a case where a postal ballot paper is issued at the same time in respect of the referendum and the relevant elections, a single mark must be placed in the list under the following provisions—

(a) regulation 76(2) of the 2008 Regulations;

(b) paragraph 6(1) of Part 3 of Schedule 2 to the Local Elections Order.

(3) In any other case, a mark must be placed in the list under those provisions identifying the poll to which each postal ballot paper issued relates.

Provisions requiring declaration of identity to indicate colours of ballot papers

42 (1) The provisions listed in sub-paragraph (3) do not apply where the Chief Electoral Officer decides that the proceedings on the issue and receipt of postal ballot papers in respect of the referendum and the relevant elections are to be taken together.

(2) Otherwise, the provisions listed in sub-paragraph (3) have effect as if the words before “the colour” were omitted.

(3) The provisions are—

(a) regulation 76(4) of the 2008 Regulations;

(b) paragraph 6(3) of Part 3 of Schedule 2 to the Local Elections Order.

Envelopes

43 (1) This paragraph applies where the Chief Electoral Officer decides that the proceedings on the issue and receipt of postal ballot papers in respect of the referendum and the relevant elections are to be taken together.

(2) The same covering envelope and ballot paper envelope must be issued to a voter under the following provisions in respect of the referendum and the relevant elections.

(3) The provisions are—

(a) regulation 78 of the 2008 Regulations;

(b) paragraph 8 of Part 3 of Schedule 2 to the Local Elections Order.

(4) The number of each of the postal ballot papers issued must be marked on the ballot paper envelope unless the envelope has a window through which all of the ballot paper numbers are displayed.

(5) The following provisions do not apply—

(a) regulation 78(4) of the 2008 Regulations;

(b) paragraph 8(2) of Part 3 of Schedule 2 to the Local Elections Order.

Spoilt postal ballot papers

44 (1) This paragraph applies where—

(a) the Chief Electoral Officer decides that the proceedings on the issue and receipt of postal ballot papers in respect of the referendum and the relevant elections are to be taken together,

(b) a person returns a spoilt postal ballot paper under regulation 81(1) of the 2008 Regulations or paragraph 12(1) of Part 3 of Schedule 2 to the Local Elections Order, and

(c) a postal ballot paper has been issued to the person in respect of one or more of the other polls.

(2) The spoilt postal ballot paper may not be replaced unless all the postal ballot papers issued to the person are returned.

(3) Where an unspoilt postal ballot paper is returned as mentioned in sub-paragraph (2), the 2008 Regulations or Local Elections Order apply to it as if it were a spoilt ballot paper.

Opening of postal voters’ ballot box

45 The following provisions have effect as if for the words after “opened” there were substituted “at the counting of the ballot papers”—

(a) regulation 85(3) of the 2008 Regulations;

(b) paragraph 16(3) of Part 3 of Schedule 2 to the Local Elections Order.

Opening of ballot paper envelopes

46 (1) This paragraph applies where the Chief Electoral Officer decides that the proceedings on the issue and receipt of postal ballot papers in respect of the referendum and the relevant elections are to be taken together.

(2) The following provisions have effect as if after “number” there were inserted “(or one of the numbers)”—

(a) regulation 88(2)(a) of the 2008 Regulations;

(b) paragraph 17B(2)(a) of Part 3 of Schedule 2 to the Local Elections Order.

(3) The following provisions have effect as if at the end there were inserted “or, where more than one number appears on the ballot paper envelope, a sufficient number of ballot papers (marking the envelope to indicate the missing ballot paper)”—

(a) regulation 88(2)(c) of the 2008 Regulations;

(b) paragraph 17B(2)(c) of Part 3 of Schedule 2 to the Local Elections Order.

Countermand or abandonment of poll for relevant election

47 The following provisions do not apply where the Chief Electoral Officer decides that the proceedings on the issue and receipt of postal ballot papers in respect of the referendum and the relevant elections are to be taken together—

(a) regulation 90 of the 2008 Regulations;

(b) paragraph 18 of Part 3 of Schedule 2 to the Local Elections Order.

Retention of documents

48 (1) This paragraph applies where the Chief Electoral Officer decides that the proceedings on the issue and receipt of postal ballot papers in respect of the referendum and the relevant elections are to be taken together.

(2) The Chief Electoral Officer must—

(a) endorse on each of the specified packets a description of its contents, the date of the poll and the name of the area to which the packet relates;

(b) complete a statement as to postal ballot papers in relation to each poll;

(c) retain the packets and statements.

(3) The specified packets—

(a) in relation to the referendum and the Assembly election, are the packets made up under regulations 79, 81(5) and 89 of the 2008 Regulations;

(b) in relation to a local election, are the packets made up under paragraphs 11 and 17C(b) of Part 3 of Schedule 2 to the Local Elections Order.

(4) A statement as to postal ballot papers—

(a) in the case of the referendum and the Assembly election, must be in the form set out in Form N in Schedule 3 to the 2008 Regulations;

(b) in the case of a local election, must be in the form set out in Form 2 in Part 3 of Schedule 2 to the Local Elections Order.

(5) Where—

(a) any covering envelopes are received by the Chief Electoral Officer after the close of the poll,

(b) any envelopes addressed to postal voters are returned as undelivered too late, or

(c) any spoilt postal ballot papers for the referendum or Assembly election are returned too late to enable other postal ballot papers to be issued,

the Chief Electoral Officer must seal those envelopes or postal ballot papers up in a separate packet, endorse the packet as mentioned in sub-paragraph (2)(a) and retain the packet.

(6) A copy of the completed statements as to postal ballot papers for the referendum and for the Assembly election must be provided to the Electoral Commission.

(7) The following rules apply to any packet or document retained under this paragraph—

(a) rules 51 and 52 of the referendum rules;

(b) rule 56 of the Assembly Elections Rules;

(c) rule 59 of the Local Elections Rules.

(8) In its application by virtue of sub-paragraph (7)(c), rule 59 of the Local Elections Rules has effect as if references to the proper officer of the council were to the Chief Electoral Officer.

(9) This paragraph applies instead of regulation 91 of the 2008 Regulations.

(10) Paragraph 19 of Part 3 of Schedule 2 to the Local Elections Order has effect as if—

(a) in sub-paragraph (1), the reference to paragraphs 11 and 17C(b) were omitted;

(b) in sub-paragraph (2), the references to envelopes were omitted.’.—(Mr Harper.)

Question put, That the amendment be made:—

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Bryant]

I am very keen to abandon the Dispatch Box as soon as I possibly can, but I shall give way to my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan).

[Mark Durkan]

Does the hon. Gentleman recognise that the impact of thresholds on referendums—remember that we are told that the whole issue of constituency changes in this Bill is about creating equal votes—is that they create unequal votes? Those who do not vote—even those who do not vote because they are dead—have more influence and more say than those who go to the bother of voting. Is not the real issue that people want to learn the lesson from Irish referendums? As well as creating confusion and saying, “If you don’t know, vote no,” they will say in some places, “If you don’t know, don’t vote.”

[Chris Bryant]

My hon. Friend made that point in a previous discussion, and he is absolutely right. We should have a straightforward system where people fight to win their side of the argument. They win that side of the argument by getting people past the ballot box to vote either yes or no. That is why I am, broadly speaking, opposed to referendums.

Let me issue one tiny note of caution, which comes from the problems that the Government are giving us by combining the polls on 5 May. As the hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing) said earlier, this has absolutely nothing to do with whether people are bright enough or stupid enough to understand two different propositions that might be put to them—the voters are perfectly intelligent enough to be able to do that—but we will have different turnouts in different parts of the country, which will cause a significant problem. When my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan) said earlier that a no vote in the referendum would be a significant problem for the Deputy Prime Minister, the Deputy Leader of the House said from a sedentary position, “No, it wouldn’t really.” So the cat is out of the bag: the Deputy Prime Minister could not care less whether the referendum is successful—whether it leads to a yes or no vote. I think, as do many Members on both sides of the House who would really like a reform of the electoral system, that that betrays the cause that many people had thought essential to the Liberal party. That is why many of us have a profound suspicion that the Deputy Prime Minister is in this less for sound principle than for self-advancement.