BBC Local Radio

Julia Lopez Excerpts

Tuesday 17th January 2023 Westminster Hall

[The Minister of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Julia Lopez)]

Thank you, Mr Twigg, for your chairmanship of this debate. I am grateful to the hon. Member for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell). Passionate views have been expressed in the Chamber, and also across the House in recent months, on these decisions by the BBC. I apologise for missing the Backbench Business debate on the matter. I was unfortunately taken down by covid, though I rather sadly watched it from my sickbed, and listened to all the comments that were made.

Since its first local radio service was launched in the ’60s, the BBC has played a vital role in promoting locally produced radio reporting. In my view, as I have said in the House before, it is that distinctive and precise local content that makes it a true public service broadcaster, with that unique relationship with the public that follows. Important radio appearances by my hon. Friend the Member for Clacton (Giles Watling) about what will be on at the local theatre, along with the local traffic report and so on, are what make an authentic and true public service.

Today, the BBC’s 39 local radio services in England reach 5.8 million listeners a week. They have a huge reach which is incredibly valued by people across our nations. We have heard in this debate how valued those services are. My hon. Friend the Member for South West Hertfordshire (Mr Mohindra) made the point that BBC local radio can be an important incubator for local talent, training those skilled broadcast professionals who go on to feed our creative industries and important broadcasting sector.

I want to recognise at the outset that the BBC’s announcement towards the end of last year of changes to radio services in Northern Ireland has caused concern in Government. It was raised by the hon. Member for Foyle (Colum Eastwood) with the Prime Minister in November last year. More recently, the Mayor of Londonderry and Strabane wrote to the BBC’s director-general Tim Davie to invite him to the city to discuss the BBC’s plans. I am not sure whether that invitation was taken up. I note the request made of me to try to facilitate meetings, and I will happily look into that. Mayor Duffy also wrote to the BBC chairman, Richard Sharp, and stressed the importance of BBC Radio Foyle in the community.

My hon. Friend the Member for The Cotswolds (Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown) reiterated to the BBC directly the concerns that have been raised in the Public Accounts Committee.

[Colum Eastwood (Foyle) (SDLP)]

I am grateful to the Minister for giving way, and thankful to the hon. Member for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell) for securing the debate. Tim Davie has offered a number of meetings to some of us. We would like him to come to Derry to see the impact of the cuts, which in my view will end up closing the station.

He will not get to Derry today, because most people in Derry, and even the airport, are totally snowed in. People right across our community have been tuning in to Radio Foyle this morning to find out whether the schools were closed, whether roads were open, and whether they could move around the town and greater area. That would not happen if Radio Foyle did not exist. It is absolutely clear that the intention behind the cuts is to end up without Radio Foyle. Does the Minister agree that without locally connected broadcasters, we will not be able to have the same connection to the BBC and the same valuable public service broadcasting?

[Julia Lopez]

I hope my memory does not fail me, but I think there are something like 650 BBC roles in Northern Ireland, of which 36 will be cut. I understand that some of the concerns are about whether those roles will be disproportionately removed in areas such as Derry. Concerns were raised about the geographical sensitivities of some of the job losses, which I appreciate the hon. Member for East Londonderry does not share, but such issues are deeply sensitive in the context of Northern Ireland, and I do understand them.

The hon. Member for East Londonderry said that there has been a mantra from the Government about the operational decisions made by the BBC. Equally, I understand that there are various levers in our relationship. The BBC is a public service broadcaster, and I assure him I met the director-general and the chairman to raise some concerns that have been brought to my attention by Members of different parties. We have various mechanisms in our relationship with the BBC, one of which is the mid-term review. The way in which the BBC organises its resources across the organisation is not directly within that remit, but we are looking at issues of impartiality and at the extent to which the BBC’s moving into an online presence has an effect on the commercial radio market. All those questions are up for grabs, and we take them seriously.

Last week I met the chairman of Ofcom to discuss this issue and others. Ofcom is the regulator of the BBC and has a role in holding it to account. I do not think it has quite the same level of concern that we in this House have about the changes, but the BBC’s public service essence comes down to how it responds to parts of the market that are not being served by the commercial sector. That is why people support the licence fee: the BBC provides some unique services that would not otherwise be provided, and local content is vital.

The Government want the BBC to succeed as an incredibly important British broadcaster that has a wider impact on the creative industries. In so far as we have an involvement in its “digital first” policy, which is what it wants to move towards—that is part of the justification for the changes to its local radio input—I want to have a wide-ranging conversation with the BBC about that strategy. It is about how we support the BBC to thrive, but also how we ensure that its fundamental public service broadcasting operations, such as those in radio, are not undermined as part of the shift. It is understandable and necessary, but I emphasise that we need to ensure, particularly for those who are served primarily by radio—older listeners and listeners in certain geographies—that people are not neglected in the shift to digital that all broadcasters are having to undertake.

I do not have the power to direct the BBC on where it places its resources, but these points are all elements of broader conversations I have with the organisation as a Minister. I try to reflect the sentiments, feelings and strong passions of this place when I have my conversations with the BBC.

[Giles Watling]

I appreciate the sentiment about independence, and the point about commercial pressures being removed by the licence fee being part of the BBC’s set-up. Most importantly, I would have thought that the BBC would be talking to older people, who may not be able to access digital things. Older people in my constituency—I include myself—would be pleased to know they would still have mainstream online BBC services.

[Julia Lopez]

It is necessary to ensure that the BBC is uniquely able to access audiences who may not be moving online in quite the same way as the majority of audiences. That is a key role for the BBC. The charter requires the BBC to provide distinct content that reflects and represents people and communities in all corners of the UK, and that extends to all socioeconomic groups and age groups. We believe that local content that is relevant to audiences is incredibly important in the BBC’s public service remit. Again, it is the public service remit by which we hold the BBC to account, and it is part of the discussions when it comes to deciding the licence fee and so.

The BBC has an “Across the UK” strategy that includes important content production commitments, such as a pledge to increase the BBC’s out-of-London spend for both radio and music to 50%. In May 2022 we embedded that target in our framework agreement, requiring 50% of expenditure on network radio and BBC Sounds programmes to be made out of London by the end of the charter period. I hope the communities that Members represent will start to see that benefit.

The charter requires the BBC to work collaboratively and partner with other organisations in the creative economy; we see that in things such as the local news partnerships, which have been raised by the DCMS Committee. The BBC supports Two Lochs Radio, Britain’s smallest commercial radio station, which produces public interest journalism in the Gairloch and Loch Ewe areas of Wester Ross in Scotland. That is the kind of unique thing the BBC can do with its spending power and reach, which is reflected in the kind of content produced in Members’ constituencies.

As of July, 180 media organisations were supported by the BBC as part of local news partnerships, and that collaboration is incredibly important. I have made it clear that I am disappointed that the BBC is planning to reduce that local radio output. I have also made clear my disappointment at the proposed changes to the output in Northern Ireland, including cuts to BBC Radio Foyle. As the hon. Member for East Londonderry will be aware, BBC Radio Ulster—including Foyle—reaches nearly a third of radio listeners in Northern Ireland, and it is an incredibly important part of that media landscape.

I met the BBC’s leadership at the end of last year and expressed everybody’s concerns, and that meeting has been built on; following the issue being raised in Prime Minister’s questions, the Prime Minister met the director-general and the chairman of the BBC. The Secretary of State has also written to the BBC to remind it of its responsibilities under the charter and to express our concern that we received notification of the changes only on the date they were made, rather than receiving any advance notice; that makes an urgent question rather difficult to respond to.

The DCMS Committee has been looking carefully at the BBC and its planned changes to local radio. I always appreciate the work of the Committee and its valuable contributions. I have asked the BBC for advice on how it will manage major local incidents that require a dedicated rolling news service, given its important responsibilities under the charter to support emergency broadcasting; the weather has been referenced in the debate, and providing that information is a valuable part of what the BBC does.

Beyond the BBC’s role in promoting locally produced radio reporting, there is its role in the wider local media ecosystem. Local commercial radio stations, such as Radio Clyde and Downtown Radio, reach 43% of adults every week, and most have licence obligations to provide local news in peak hours, which again provides trusted content. When I raised the issues about cuts to broadcasting with the BBC, I was told that it would protect the local news bulletins and the distinct content for each of the stations in question. I wrote to hon. Members who had spoken in the UQ to set out some of the BBC’s response to me; I hope they received those letters.

We want to ensure that everything we do supports community radio stations, and various provisions in the media Bill—which I know everybody is keen to see—will support the wider radio ecology. I hope to be able to provide further details on that Bill in due course. We are providing financial support for technical trials of small DAB broadcasting technology and to license small-scale DAB networks. I hope that that assures hon. Members that not only do we support the BBC in what it does in local radio, but we are looking at how we can have a thriving grassroots commercial and voluntary radio sector at the same time, so that the withdrawal of the BBC does not lead to a large gap in local content.

We all agree that the BBC is a national asset; its centenary year has allowed us to reflect on just how much it has contributed to lives on both a local and national level, and how much it is truly valued by our constituents; the reaction to these radio changes really underlines that point. We want the BBC to continue to succeed for the next century, and that requires it to change, but not at the cost of some of its fundamental public service broadcasting responsibilities. I reassure hon. Members that I have been consistently making that point to the BBC’s leadership, and I want to work with them to ensure that, as the BBC moves into new broadcasting challenges, it does not lose its very essence and the public support that underpins its funding model.

Question put and agreed to.

App Security and Privacy Code of Practice: Response to Call for Views

Julia Lopez Excerpts

Friday 9th December 2022 Written Statements

[The Minister of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Julia Lopez)]

I am pleased to inform the House that the Government have published two documents titled “Code of Practice for App Store Operators and App Developers” and “Call for Views Response on App Security and Privacy Interventions”. This follows on from a call for views held between 4 May and 29 June 2022 where we sought feedback on our proposed interventions to protect users’ security and privacy from malicious and poorly developed apps.

We are publishing a world-first voluntary code of practice that sets minimum security and privacy requirements for app store operators and app developers. Given that people's lives are dependent on apps to use services, such as online banking, health and entertainment services, this code is essential as malicious and poorly designed apps continue to be accessible to users on app stores which can result in the loss of personal data, money and access to devices. This work will help deliver an objective within the national cyber strategy to reduce the cyber risk at source by ensuring that app stores—and app developers—follow better levels of cyber security.

This code will improve the security and privacy practices of both developers and operators and therefore ensure that apps are more suitably built. The code, and the eight principles within it, have been informed by feedback from operators, developers and security experts following the call for views, and received support from a vast majority of respondents. It has been thoroughly tested to ensure it strikes an appropriate balance in protecting users whilst also not overly burdening operators and developers. Furthermore, the code will ensure that more information about an app’s data practices is conveyed to users so they can make informed decisions when deciding whether to download an app.

Given the global nature of cyber security issues and digital markets, we plan to prioritise creating international alignment on the code’s security and privacy requirements. We will do this by engaging with international counterparts to promote the need for the requirements, particularly in the context of future competition regulation, and explore the viability of creating an international standard based on the code.

I will place a copy of both the “Code of Practice for App Store Operators and App Developers” and “Call for Views Response on App Security and Privacy Interventions” in the Libraries of both Houses.

[HCWS429]

Telecoms Diversification: International Co-operation

Julia Lopez Excerpts

Thursday 8th December 2022 Written Statements

[The Minister of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Julia Lopez)]

I would like to inform the House that today the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport is announcing a joint statement on telecoms diversification alongside the Governments of Australia, Canada and the United States of America. This further progresses His Majesty’s Government’s efforts to build global support for our approach to telecoms diversification and identify tangible opportunities for collaboration with a range of international partners as set out in the 5G supply chain diversification strategy in 2020, and following the recommendations of the telecoms diversification taskforce in 2021.

The joint statement marks the one-year anniversary of the 2021 Prague proposals on telecommunications supplier diversity, to which our four Governments have reaffirmed our commitment. It also announces the endorsement of the UK’s open RAN principles by the Governments of Australia, Canada and the United States of America, which I would like to welcome.

Collectively, these Governments hold a shared view that open and interoperable solutions could help to create a more diverse, competitive and innovative telecoms supply market. To support this we intend to work together across a number of areas ranging from sharing information on our respective policy approaches to supporting greater transparency in industry-led standard-setting processes. We also intend to seek ongoing support from other likeminded countries truly to realise the benefits of a diverse telecoms supply chain on a global scale.

This announcement builds on the strong progress we have made to increase the resilience and security of the UK’s telecoms critical national infrastructure since the publication of the 5G supply chain diversification strategy, which is backed by the £250 million open networks fund committed at the 2021 spending review. The fund aims to accelerate the adoption of open RAN solutions as a means to diversify the market. It includes research and development interventions of up to £36 million for the Future RAN Competition, up to £25 million for the Future Open Networks Research Challenge, as well as funding for testing facilities such as the SmartRAN Open Networks Interoperability Centre, and the UK Telecoms Lab. HM Government has also previously announced a joint ambition with UK mobile network operators to increase the share of open and interoperable equipment in UK networks by 2030. Indeed, we are also seeing positive progress from industry, for example, Vodafone and Telefonica have now deployed their first live open RAN sites, with both using new market entrants.

While there is still more to do, today represents a significant milestone in the Government’s efforts to grow international consensus on telecoms diversification. In order to support a lasting and meaningful change it will be crucial for the global community to work together. I am grateful to the Governments of Australia, Canada and the United States of America and look forward to working with them, along with partners around the world, to achieve our vision of a more innovative, competitive and diverse telecoms supply market. Full details of the announcement will be published on www.gov.uk today.

[HCWS423]

Project Gigabit Autumn Update

Julia Lopez Excerpts

Thursday 1st December 2022 Written Statements

[The Minister of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Julia Lopez)]

Today we have published Building Digital UK’s latest Project Gigabit delivery update. We continue to make excellent progress with Project Gigabit, the Government’s £5 billion mission to deliver lightning-fast, reliable broadband across the UK.

In this Project Gigabit autumn update, we report on the awarding of a £108 million contract in Cumbria that will bring gigabit-capable connectivity to up to 60,000 homes and businesses across the region. This is the first regional contract awarded under Project Gigabit, and follows local contracts awarded in Teesdale and north Northumberland in the past two months.

We also report on the boost we are giving to the gigabit broadband voucher scheme, increasing the value of vouchers to £4,500 for all beneficiaries, up from £1,500 and £3,500 for homes and businesses respectively. To date, over 111,000 vouchers have been provided through the scheme and its previous iterations, with more than 77,000 vouchers used to connect premises to gigabit-capable broadband.

The report also provides an update on the progress of the Project Gigabit procurement pipeline. BDUK has now undertaken market engagement exercises across the whole of England, and has launched procurements with a total value over £780 million, to connect up to 545,000 premises. The publication also reports on the completion of a public review by Highland and Islands Enterprise, working with BDUK and the Scottish Government, ahead of a first potential local procurement in Scotland.

I will place a copy of the Project Gigabit delivery plan autumn update in the Libraries of both Houses.

[HCWS405]

Oral Answers to Questions

Julia Lopez Excerpts

Thursday 1st December 2022 Commons Chamber

[John Spellar (Warley) (Lab)]

14. What assessment the Government has made of the potential impact on the creative industries of the proposed copyright exemption for text and data mining for artificial intelligence.

[The Minister of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Julia Lopez)]

The recent Intellectual Property Office consultation on artificial intelligence and intellectual property sought evidence and views on text and data mining. A response was published in June. We recognise that the creative industries have significant concerns about the potential impacts of the TDM proposal and as a result, we are reflecting on whether to progress it in its current form. The IPO will be engaging with interested parties over the coming months to help to inform the Government’s thinking and we will set out the next steps in due course.

[Sarah Olney]

It was encouraging to hear the Minister tell the Lords Communications and Digital Committee last week that she is confident that the text and data mining proposal will not go ahead. That has been warmly welcomed by the creative industries, which depend heavily on intellectual property rights for their income stream. What steps will the Minister be taking to ensure that any revised proposals to promote AI do not cause economic harm to the creative industries? Will she provide an update on her conversations with the Intellectual Property Office, including the detail of its plans to extend the consultation on the proposal?

[Julia Lopez]

I thank the hon. Lady for raising the issue and speaking on behalf of the creative industries; IP is the lifeblood of many of those industries. As I said in the Lords Committee, I am not convinced of the value of the proposal. Yesterday, the Under-Secretary of State for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport, my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Scully), and I met the Minister of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Norfolk (George Freeman), who has responsibility for the Intellectual Property Office. As I mentioned, he is extending the consultation on this and we will be talking to him in the meantime. We hope to provide further details as soon as we can.

[John Spellar]

The Minister clearly agrees that our creative industries, especially music, are not only valuable in themselves, but part of what makes Britain great. It follows that we must encourage and support our creative talent across the spectrum. She also clearly understands and shares the industries’ concern about eroding creative copyright for the benefit of the AI giants, so what will she do to stop it?

[Julia Lopez]

Hopefully, I have set that out in my previous answer. I raised the concerns of the creative industries with the responsible Minister and he was sympathetic to those concerns. He will go back and look at the consultation again to examine in greater detail some of the concerns that have already come from the creative industries and see whether the proposal can be revised.

[Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) (Con)]

2. What steps her Department is taking to expand broadband coverage in rural areas.

[Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con)]

17. What steps her Department is taking to expand broadband coverage in rural areas.

[The Minister of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Julia Lopez)]

We are investing £5 billion through Project Gigabit to deliver lightning-fast, reliable broadband to hard-to-reach areas across the UK, and we are making great progress, having already launched procurements with a value of £780 million. Today, we announced the award of a new £108-million contract to connect up to 60,000 homes and businesses across Cumbria with the fastest broadband speeds. We are also boosting our voucher scheme: we have increased the value of the vouchers so that people can apply for as much as £4,500 towards the cost of installing gigabit-capable broadband in rural and particularly hard-to-reach areas.

[Caroline Nokes]

I assure the Minister that the people of Nether Wallop, Over Wallop and Barton Stacey do not feel that Project Gigabit is delivering for them. They have seen changed criteria; an inability to split postcodes, which is difficult when they are on a county boundary; delays in the processing of their applications; and then being told that they will not be able to reapply until 2023, because the project will still not be procured for those areas. They want answers and delivery, not the news that the project is delivering in Cumbria.

[Julia Lopez]

I thank my right hon. Friend, although I cannot agree with her on the importance of Cumbria, which is one of the hardest to reach areas of our country. That we are taking that area as one of our first shows just how much we care about narrowing the digital divide. More than 95% of premises in my right hon. Friend’s constituency now have superfast broadband, which is up 55% over the past 12 years. During the same period, gigabit-capable coverage has risen from 0% to 71% in her constituency. I appreciate that particular villages and parts of people’s constituencies do not have the coverage they need, and that is why we are significantly boosting the voucher scheme. We have launched two of our procurements in areas that cover my right hon. Friend’s constituency in Hampshire. I also host regular Building Digital UK drop-ins for colleagues—I hosted one yesterday—and if she would like to come along and speak directly to BDUK officials, we shall look into the villages affected.

[Mark Menzies]

Everyone loves Cumbria, but some of us love Lancashire even more. Residents of Station Road in Singleton have experienced repeated delays to the installation of fibre broadband, with the project unlikely to be completed before 2026. In Lancashire the awarding of installation contracts for Project Gigabit is still a year away, and the voucher scheme remains suspended. While some rural areas enjoy great connectivity, many on the margins of commercial viability, such as Station Road, do not. How can we prevent our rural communities, especially those in Lancashire, from falling ever further into a digital divide?

[Julia Lopez]

I am sorry to hear about the challenges in Singleton, and I have great sympathy with my hon. Friend’s constituents. He is right to highlight the digital divide, which we are ruthlessly focusing on closing. We will shortly reopen the voucher scheme across Lancashire. We have increased the value of vouchers, and we are assessing alternative procurement approaches to Lancashire. My hon. Friend should please engage with BDUK, which I would be happy to put in touch with him.

[Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)]

I am pleased for Cumbria, Mr Speaker, but just 10% of Blaenau Gwent has access to gigabit broadband, compared with a 72% UK average. The swift roll-out of Project Gigabit will be essential for levelling up across our local economy, so will the Minister please ensure that areas with the least coverage, such as Blaenau Gwent, are prioritised first?

[Julia Lopez]

As the hon. Gentleman may be aware, the Welsh Government lead on that procurement in his constituency. We work closely with them, to support them in trying to accelerate the work they are doing, but I am happy to look into his particular circumstances. It was wonderful to visit south Wales last week, and I thank him for the work he does with the film, television and screen industries, which I also represent as a Minister.

[Chris Elmore (Ogmore) (Lab)]

The Welsh are never knowingly undersold—two for the price of one.

Let me plead with the Minister: as she knows, communities along the M4 corridor still do not have the superfast broadband roll-out. That is not to do with delivery; it is about the companies saying that they are unable to install on streets within three miles of the M4 motorway. I have raised with the Minister many times, from the Dispatch Box and the Back Benches, the fact that communities in my Ogmore constituency have some of the lowest speeds in the whole UK. I ask her to raise this issue again with the installers to get it fixed, and ensure that my communities have far better broadband connectivity.

[Julia Lopez]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his work in this area in his previous role. I would be grateful if he could write to me about the specific companies that are causing challenges in his area, particularly in relation to the M4 motorway, which I would be happy to look into.

[Cat Smith (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Lab)]

3. What steps she is taking with Cabinet colleagues to help support the voluntary sector in delivering youth services.

--- Later in debate ---

[Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)]

T4. Why is there no right to appeal against decisions made by the executive complaints unit in the BBC? Does the Minister agree that it would strengthen confidence in the BBC if there were an independent complaints process enabling people to appeal against those decisions?

[The Minister of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Julia Lopez)]

I know that this is a long-running issue of concern for the hon. Gentleman. The BBC announced some changes to its complaints process yesterday, but I appreciate that he does not think they are strong enough. We will be looking into this in the course of our reviews of the organisation.

[Mark Eastwood (Dewsbury) (Con)]

T3.   I recently received positive news from Leeds United football club: the area where I sit, as a season ticket holder, is being converted to rail seating. As chairman of the all-party parliamentary group for safe standing, may I ask the Minister to meet me to discuss how rail seating could be extended to other clubs? That would be financially viable for them, and would give their supporters a better viewing experience.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

Am I allowed to say, “Pinch, punch, first day of the month”? The Government should wake up to this opportunity; there are loads of young people coming out of university with media skills. We could put them in schools, and bring culture back to our school curriculum. Could we have a new programme now?

[Julia Lopez]

I met the Minister of State, Department for Education, my right hon. Friend the Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon), who has responsibility for skills, just this week to talk about how we get more creative skills in the economy to fill all the wonderful jobs being created in areas such as the film and television industry. I appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s enthusiasm.

The hon. Member for South West Bedfordshire, representing the Church Commissioners was asked—

Improving the UK’s Cyber Resilience Public Consultations: Government Response

Julia Lopez Excerpts

Wednesday 30th November 2022 Written Statements

[The Minister of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Julia Lopez)]

Today, the Department publishes the Government response to the consultation for improving the UK’s cyber resilience, which sought the public’s views on a package of measures.



Cyber resilience and the protection of critical infrastructure and technology are essential for the development of a thriving digital economy. The Network and Information Systems Regulations 2018 provide legal measures to boost the overall level of security of network and information systems that are critical for the provision of digital services and essential services.



In recent times, the frequency and scale of cyber incidents against UK targets are increasing the risk of severe damage to critical national infrastructure and the resilience of the economy. High-profile incidents in the last few years, such as the compromise of SolarWinds supply chain and the Colonial Pipeline ransomware attack, as well as incidents this year including the attacks on the NHS 111 services and South Staffordshire Water, have demonstrated the devastating impact cyber-attacks can have, and as such it is essential that legislation in the UK evolves to boost our defence.



In January 2022, the Government launched a public consultation on proposals to improve the UK’s cyber resilience, which included seven individual measures relating to the NIS regulations, as well as further measures focusing on cyber skills, the consultation and Government response for which is available at: https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/proposal-for-legislation-to-improve-the-uks-cyber-resilience. The consultation aimed to gather feedback on the proposals, including favourability, and suggestions on how they could be refined, in order to continue their development further. Understanding the support from the public on these proposals and the nature of the feedback will allow us to ensure that the amendments contribute to development of our cyber-security legislation and ensure that we can effectively manage future cyber risks.



The Government response, relating to pillars one and two of the consultation, covers the entirety of the United Kingdom. Pillar one seeks to bring managed service providers in scope of NIS, as well as considering a more flexible and risk-based supervisory regime for digital services, ensuring greater resilience of the UK’s most critical digital service providers. Pillar two seeks to make amendments to the NIS regulations to future-proof the legislation, and allow the UK to adapt to emerging, evolving, and critical threats. These changes would allow updating amendments to be made to the regulations, new sectors and sub-sectors added, and existing sectors expanded via secondary legislation. In addition, the proposals would also amend the existing cost recovery system to implement an improved, fairer scheme; amend the incident reporting thresholds to include incidents that do not actually affect the continuity of the service directly, but none the less pose a significant risk to the security and resilience of the entities; and allow regulators to designate critical dependencies in their supply chain for which their services rely on.



Overall8 the feedback on the proposals has been very positive. This high level of support from industry demonstrates a recognition of the importance of these proposals in enhancing the resilience of the UK’s critical national infrastructure, which is critical for the continued growth of our economy.

The full Government response to the proposals is available on the Government website.

[HCWS401]

Draft Telecommunications Infrastructure (Leasehold Property) (Terms of Agreement) Regulations 2022

Julia Lopez Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd November 2022 General Committees

[The Minister of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Julia Lopez)]

I beg to move,

That the Committee has considered the draft Telecommunications Infrastructure (Leasehold Property) (Terms of Agreement) Regulations 2022.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Elliott, in particular after our recent Westminster Hall debate. I am pleased to introduce this draft statutory instrument, laid before the House on 19 October, which is part of the implementing regulations under the Telecommunications Infrastructure (Leasehold Property) Act 2021, or TILPA.

Providing greater access to fast, reliable and secure connections is a priority for the Government. We all understand the economic, social and cultural benefits of improving digital connectivity. Improving our infrastructure to deliver gigabit-capable connections will enable a step change in what digital connectivity can contribute to our daily lives.

The benefits can only be realised to their fullest extent, however, if they reach every home. For that reason, last year the Government passed TILPA, which we believe will support those living in flats and apartments—multiple-dwelling units or MDUs—to access broadband services. The aim of TILPA is to encourage landlords to respond to requests for access issued by network operators. That could be landlords or a property management company, depending on the arrangements for any particular building. In TILPA, that person is referred to as the “required grantor”.

The rights sought by operators are essential to the delivery of connectivity. That is because, while a tenant in a flat may be able to provide permission for the operator to install equipment in their own flat, operators may be unable to deploy their services without first obtaining permission to install equipment in areas that are not part of the target premises itself, such as shared corridors or riser cupboards.

Data provided by multiple operators suggest that about 40% of their requests for access receive no response. When an operator finds itself in that situation, our understanding is that the operator opts to bypass the property to maintain the momentum of its wider deployment. The result of the operator’s commercial decision is that residents in that property are left with little choice but to accept that they will miss out on a good connection. We think that that is unacceptable.

TILPA addresses that issue by amending the electronic communications code to create a new streamlined route through the courts, named the part 4A process. Operators may use that process to access lots of flats and apartments if a service has been requested by a tenant, but the landlord is repeatedly unresponsive to requests for access. The legislation will thus prevent a situation in which a leaseholder is unable to receive a service simply because of the silence of a landlord.

Government policy in this area, however, also works to keep a proportionate balance between public benefit and the rights of individual landlords. That consideration is particularly important in TILPA where an operator may gain rights to access a property without the express permission or, potentially, even knowledge of a landlord. TILPA is designed such that the terms and conditions applied to part 4A code rights will ensure that that balance between the public benefit of network roll-out and private property rights is maintained.

The terms and conditions are contained in two statutory instruments, the draft terms-of-agreement SI which we are debating today and the Telecommunications Infrastructure (Leasehold Property) (Conditions and Time Limits) Regulations 2022. The latter SI, which was laid in Parliament on the same day as this one, was subject to the negative procedure. It specifies conditions to be satisfied before an operator can give a final notice to the landlord. Those regulations are designed to ensure that the operator has made sufficient attempts to identify and contact the landlord before making an application to the court to have an agreement imposed. It gives a time limit within which the operator must apply to the court for a part 4A order and an expiry period for the code rights themselves to ensure that the rights gained through the process are balanced to facilitate the provision of new connections without encroaching on private property rights.

All rights conferred under the code, whether under part 4A or another part of the code, are subject to the terms contained in the agreement granting those rights—for example, particular requirements to give notice before entering the land in question. The precise terms to be applied to a code agreement have never been set in legislation, so the draft SI we are discussing has been informed by detailed consultation with stakeholders and contains the exact terms to which any code rights imposed under the part 4A process will be subject.

Those terms include the notice requirements that the operator must satisfy before entering the building, entry times for the operator, a requirement for the operator to indemnify the landlord for up to £5 million and requirements to label equipment, among other details. By prescribing those exact terms for a part 4A agreement, the draft SI represents a novel approach in telecoms infrastructure policy.

That approach has been taken for two reasons. First, the circumstances in which the part 4A process can be used are very specific: it can only be used where the operator needs to access land connected to the premises to which it wishes to deliver a service, and where both the target premises and the connected land are in common ownership. The process currently applies only to multiple-dwelling units. The limited situations in which the part 4A process can be used mean that whereas in most cases, legislation cannot effectively pre-empt the terms that a particular situation warrants, in this case, the scope is so narrow that it can. Secondly, fixing the terms of a part 4A agreement makes the process of courts dealing with applications for code rights far less complex, so that we can grant decisions very quickly. Given that the process is designed to provide a quicker route to gaining code rights to avoid an operator having to bypass a building altogether, we think that is crucial. It also has the benefit of allowing courts to concentrate on the most complex cases.

Before concluding, I wish to note that the regulations apply to Scotland, England and Wales, but not to Northern Ireland. That is due to an issue stemming from the absence of a Northern Ireland Executive between 2017 and 2019, which caused the jurisdiction of code court cases in Northern Ireland courts to fall out of step with the rest of the country. Work is under way to resolve that, and separate regulations will follow in 2023. These regulations, and the Act they help to implement, represent an innovative new approach to enabling digital infrastructure roll-out, and we have designed them carefully to deliver improved connectivity for tenants while protecting private property rights. I hope that the regulations will receive the support of hon. Members.

--- Later in debate ---

[Julia Lopez]

I thank the hon. Member for Barnsley East for what I thought was constructive feedback; I am glad that we very much agree on the importance of connectivity. As she knows, we have looked carefully at the Openreach-backed amendments to the PSTI Bill in great detail. TILPA is neutral to all operators without giving any single operator a particular commercial benefit, and we believe that the amendment that Openreach has persistently tried to get through the House gives it a commercial benefit. The hon. Member will be aware that the presence of competition in our broadband roll-out has been an absolutely critical factor in ensuring that that roll-out is rapid, so we are sensitive to anything that would give one commercial operator an advantage over another. We believe that we are getting connectivity to people much faster through that commercial competition. I will take some of the other feedback from the hon. Member back to my officials, but I reassure her that we have been talking carefully and constructively with all operators throughout this process. I am sure that all the issues that she raised will be ones that we continue to look at to ensure that the system is working as it should. We fundamentally have the same aim, which is to get this great connectivity out to everybody as quickly as possible.

I also welcome the comments of the hon. Member for Inverclyde on Protect and Connect. I share some of his frustrations, and it is interesting to look at some of those that are backing the campaign and how it is funded. I believe that it is backed by a former Labour MP for Redcar. While I appreciate some of the issues that it raises, some of the ways in which the campaign has been conducted use sensitive community cases to disguise a wider commercial interest. We are making huge progress in our roll-out, and the new procurements that we are rolling out under Project Gigabit to some of the hardest-to-reach areas will deliver great connectivity to some of those parts of the country that have suffered for too long with poor superfast and mobile connectivity. We look forward to having the support of the House as we engage in that programme, and I thank both hon. Members for their comments in this debate. I commend the regulations to the Committee.

Question put and agreed to.

Creative Industries: North-east

Julia Lopez Excerpts

Wednesday 9th November 2022 Westminster Hall

[The Minister of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Julia Lopez)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Robertson. I am very grateful to the hon. Member for Sunderland Central (Julie Elliott) for securing a really important debate. It is a great opportunity to showcase her tremendous region, and she has very cleverly articulated just how much vibrancy and life the arts can breathe into parts of her city that have previously fallen into disrepair or where there were industries that have declined. I had the pleasure of spending some time with my family on holiday in the north-east not so long ago, and I saw the amazing contribution of heritage and the arts to the vibrancy of the region.

I was glad recently to present to the hon. Lady’s Committee; she is a very engaged member of the Select Committee on Digital, Culture, Media and Sport. We spoke on local journalism, and I hope to write to the Committee shortly in order to update it on some of the conversations that I have had specifically with the BBC on the local democracy reporting service, which it provides. She is a stalwart supporter of the creative industries, and I am grateful for her passionate campaigning on behalf of the sector but also the place that she represents. I congratulate Sunderland on being chosen as the national e-sports performance campus by British Esports this year. I was really interested in the water studios project that the hon. Lady spoke about. It sounds absolutely incredible, and I am keen to hear more about it as it develops.

The hon. Lady is right to be so supportive of the creative industries. They are an economic powerhouse: they contribute almost £116 billion to the country’s economy and employ more than 2 million people throughout the country. Although the north-east may not have some of the biggest clusters of creative businesses, the sector there employs about 45,000 people and contributes £1.1 billion to the economy. It is built on a foundation of venues big and small, from the Forum music centre in Darlington to the Sage Gateshead in Newcastle. The Government are committed to supporting creative businesses. We supported them through the pandemic, and we are now trying to help them with future growth, because it is such an important sector to the economy.

As the hon. Lady may be aware, we are developing a creative sector vision, and we will set out our 2030 ambitions to drive even more growth and employment in those world-renowned creative industries. At the heart of that vision is £50 million of investment from our Department to drive growth across the country through the Create Growth programme, the UK games fund and the UK global screen fund. In addition, UK Research and Innovation is providing more than £100 million of funding for the Circular Fashion programme, the CoSTAR virtual production infrastructure programme and the Creative Catalyst scheme. Those investments demonstrate our commitment to supporting the industries across the UK.

As the Minister for those industries, I am always looking for new opportunities to encourage growth. On Friday, I announced the six regions that will receive funding from our £17.5 million Create Growth programme. I am pleased to say that that includes the north-east, which will be getting £1.28 million in grant funding. That will allow businesses to access a further £7 million investment fund and support to build local investor networks. Working with Innovate UK, the North of Tyne Combined Authority will collaborate with local and industry partners, including New Writing North, North East Screen, which the hon. Lady mentioned, and Creative UK to develop a bespoke package tailored to the needs of local creative businesses.

The hon. Lady rightly asked about skills. I have been advocating that agenda across the Government, working very closely with the Department for Education. We are lucky that our new Secretary of State has deep experience in the education space.

I am always keen to show that creative careers are a stable and fulfilling choice for young people, contrary to the stereotype that parents might have about them. From directors to designers, cameramen, creative technicians and, as the hon. Lady says, accountants, there are many exciting careers in the creative industries, which can be very lucrative. To target young people from under-represented backgrounds, we will relaunch the Creative Careers programme to raise awareness of the wide range of exciting careers that those industries can offer. I am pleased to say that parts of the north-east are included in our 53 priority areas, where we will be delivering this programme with our industry partner, ScreenSkills.

Getting a new generation of talent into the creative workforce is absolutely vital if we are to mitigate the reported skills gaps and shortages in the sector. A lot of people in the sector speak to me about them regularly. We also recognise the importance of providing opportunities for current workers to upskill and retrain. The hon. Lady spoke about those in the construction industry.

There is a range of technical education pathways available to enhance the skills of the creative workforce, and I am pleased to say that we have been developing a range of new qualifications that will be on the horizon, from creative T-levels in 2023 to creative higher technical qualifications in 2025. They will provide people with high-quality vocational skills training and work experience from the age of 16.

Of course, apprenticeships also play a very important role in upskilling and retraining. There are now five Government-funded apprenticeship pilots under way. We are testing new, more flexible approaches to that training pathway for our industries. It has been a particular challenge to get an apprenticeship that fits the creative industries, which use freelance work, so it can be quite difficult to get the right placements. That includes the northern apprenticeship pilot, which will be trialling 60 flexible apprenticeships across the cultural and creative organisations in the north.

The hon. Lady also spoke about the importance of BBC investment. That supplements what we are doing in the north-east. For instance, as she said, last year the BBC announced investment of £25 million in the north-east, which will support the creation of more jobs and more regionally made independent programmes. The Department recognises that the creative industries in the north-east have an enormous amount to offer, and we are dedicated to nurturing that. She also talked about the importance of public service broadcasters; we are developing a range of reforms to support our PSBs legislatively.

I also pay tribute to the great work of the British Film Institute. Through its delivery of national lottery funding between 2017 and 2022, it has played a really important role in reaching creative businesses and audiences in the north-east, delivering more than £2 million of funding in total. The north-east is just one region benefiting from what is a booming film industry, and it is great to hear some of the examples the hon. Lady has shared with us today.

I am proud and excited to say that creative industries are often at the forefront of innovative technology, with potential applications across the economy. I have recently enjoyed hearing about XR Therapeutics in Gateshead, a company that uses virtual reality to help people to conquer phobias. It was supported by UK Research and Innovation’s healthy ageing challenge to push those immersive technologies in the healthcare sector. By using the latest digital technologies in creative ways, the creative industries are trailblazers in delivering the social, economic and environmental benefits that come from innovation.

The Arts and Humanities Research Council’s £70 million CoSTAR programme is also open for applications. The programme seeks to support researchers in developing new technologies such as virtual production and many more applications. I very much encourage businesses in the north-east to look at that fantastic opportunity so that they can be much more involved in this cutting-edge work.

I recognise that, as the hon. Lady mentioned, this has not been an easy time for creative businesses. We are still working to recover after the pandemic, and the sector faced particularly difficult challenges. Although some were able to make it into an opportunity for innovation, others were not in a position to do so. The coronavirus job retention scheme did a good job at protecting the vast majority of businesses across the country, supporting just under 60,000 employees in the arts, entertainment and recreation sectors. We also supported freelancers directly through the self-employment income support scheme, which received about 312,000 claims from self-employed people in the arts, entertainment and recreation sectors.

The Government went above and beyond that, investing in some 5,000 organisations through the culture recovery fund, which supported both commercial and non-commercial organisations, including venues such as the Auxiliary Project Space in Middlesborough. The fund also indirectly supported freelancers by helping to ensure the survival and operations of the organisations with which many freelancers work.

On Friday, DCMS also announced that the Arts Council has kicked off its latest round of long-term investment to help creative industries grow in the regions. I am glad to hear the hon. Lady speak so positively about Darren Henley. We have been working hard to try to spread Arts Council England funding across the regions, and it is great to hear that the hon. Lady’s region has benefited. As she will be aware, we have had new investment in Sunderland Central, with the Arts Council offering annual funding of £230,000 to Southpaw Dance Company and increasing its investment in Sunderland Culture, which runs a number of organisations including the Northern Gallery for Contemporary Art.

The north-east is undeniably a real hub of activity and I thank the hon. Lady for highlighting the work in her area. The north-east would not be the dynamic, innovative place that it is without advocates like her, in this House and beyond. Tees Valley Mayor Ben Houchen has been an inspiration, working with the combined authority cabinet to develop a £16.5 million programme for the long-term recovery of creative and visitor sectors in Teesside. The pandemic has shown that we need creative content in our lives more than ever, and that brilliant package helped many businesses to survive a very difficult time.

I thank the hon. Lady for bringing forward this debate and providing an opportunity to showcase her fantastic city and all its thriving arts organisations. It is important that we continue to highlight regions like hers that are working hard to make a tremendous difference to people’s lives. The north-east in particular sets a fantastic example for other local authorities in how to support local creative industries. I am also grateful for the opportunity to set out the Government’s extensive programme of support for the arts and creative industries in the north-east and across the country.

Of course, I am aware of how difficult the pandemic was for many creative workers and how it has resulted in some people leaving the sector. We are aware of that, and we are trying to develop ways to get people back because of the severe skills shortage that the hon. Lady has referenced. I truly think, though, that the best way to bring those people back is to generate growth in the industries. That is why we are focusing a lot of our efforts on that, so that people understand the valuable job opportunities there are and the fact that they can have very fulfilling, exciting careers.

That is why, as I have set out in my speech, the Government are investing millions to support creative businesses’ growth ambitions. I firmly believe that these investments, combined with our work with the sector, will develop the right training opportunities and ensure that our creative industries and creative workers are able to thrive. I look forward to continuing to work with partners in the north-east, including the hon. Lady, to support an absolutely fantastic sector and look at further opportunities for creative businesses in the region.

Question put and agreed to.

BBC Local Radio: Proposed Reduction in Provision

Julia Lopez Excerpts

Tuesday 1st November 2022 Commons Chamber

[Emma Hardy (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) (Lab)]

(Urgent Question): To ask the Secretary of State for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport whether she has considered the impact of the proposed reductions in BBC local radio provision; and if she will make a statement.

[The Minister of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Julia Lopez)]

I thank the hon. Lady for highlighting this news announcement that we learned about yesterday, as it gives the House an opportunity to demonstrate the value we all place on BBC local radio services.

We are currently celebrating 100 years of BBC radio. With its unique position in the radio market, the BBC has continued to develop and deliver high-quality and engaging audio services to the country and internationally over the years. BBC local radio is one of the BBC’s crown jewels. Developed in the late 1960s and 1970s, the BBC’s 39 local radio services in England still reach 5.7 million listeners each and every week. As hon. Members know, BBC local radio is highly valued outside London, where stations in Derby, Stoke, Humberside, Cornwall, Devon and elsewhere have higher reach or share numbers than the average.

Changes in patterns of listening mean that the BBC needs to look at its services, and the details about new investment in local investigative reporting are very welcome. But overall we do have concerns about the proposals, which we were not given notice of. I want to take this opportunity to stress that the BBC is rightly operationally and editorially independent from the Government, and that decisions on service delivery are ultimately a matter for it. However, the Government are disappointed that the BBC is reportedly planning to make such extensive cuts to its local radio output. We await to hear more from the BBC about how it expects those changes to impact local communities, including in respect of the provision of local news and media plurality.

At its best, as was particularly shown during the pandemic, BBC local radio is able to bring communities together and it plays a vital role in reflecting local experiences and delivering local news. For older residents living in rural areas, it can be a particular lifeline. The BBC must make sure it continues to provide distinctive and genuinely local radio services, with content that reflects and represents people and communities from all corners of the UK.

We recognise that in the current political context the BBC, like other organisations, is facing difficult financial decisions, but we are also concerned that the BBC is making such far-reaching decisions, particularly about its local news provision, without setting out further detail on how it will impact its audiences and the communities it serves. In the context of a £3.8 billion licence fee income, we do not have any details about how much this proposal is likely to save. The BBC board must make sure that the BBC complies with its charter duties. The Government are clear that Ofcom, as the BBC regulator, must make sure that the BBC is robustly held to account in delivering its mission and public purposes.

We note that as part of this announcement the BBC is also proposing establishing 11 investigative reporting teams across England. That will see the creation of 71 new journalism roles, delivering original stories across TV, radio and online services. As the House will be aware, we are currently undertaking a mid-term charter review, which we have set out and which will evaluate how the BBC and Ofcom assess the market impact and the public value of the BBC in an evolving marketplace and how that relates to the wider UK media ecology, including with regard to commercial radio and local news sectors. Handily, I am scheduled to meet the BBC next week, when I shall see the chairman and director general, and I shall raise with them the concerns that are brought to the Chamber today. We also expect the BBC to brief parliamentarians on its announcements shortly.

[Mr Speaker]

Excellent. Let’s go back to Emma Hardy.

[Emma Hardy]

Thank you for granting the urgent question, Mr Speaker. Let me also welcome the Minister to her place and many of the comments she has made today. BBC local radio stations are vital as sources of information and for sharing communal experiences. I recently attended the Radio Humberside “Make a Difference Awards”, which highlighted the work of local people in their communities. In March last year, Chris Burns, the head of audio and digital for BBC England, celebrated these awards saying:

“The power of radio is huge when it comes to connecting local communities in their hour of need.”

I agree. Local radio, especially Radio Humberside, brings a feeling of belonging and companionship, especially to those who are isolated from everyday interactions. Local radio stations also hold democratically elected local politicians to account, and during the covid lockdowns they provided an invaluable service, enabling and publicising local support initiatives and disseminating up-to-the-minute news.

Local radio has 5.7 million listeners—more listeners than Radio 1 and Radio 5 Live—and it is the embodiment of public service broadcasting, remaining true to the principles behind the creation of the BBC 100 years ago. The plans announced yesterday for changes to the content of local radio—without any consultation at all of local communities—effectively mean that local radio will cease to exist after 2 pm. At Radio Humberside, 139 redundancies are predicted; as well as the impact on the individuals affected, those redundancies represent a collective loss of local expertise and knowledge and of campaigning community voices.

Does the Minister agree that local listeners should have been consulted? Does she agree that the loss of provision will be damaging to local communities as they lose an important voice for their experiences and concerns about local services, democracy and accountability? Finally, does she agree that local radio cannot call itself local when it stops being local after 2 pm?

[Julia Lopez]

I thank the hon. Lady for her comments and for highlighting the work done by Radio Humberside, as well as the power of radio to connect us in times of need and to ensure local democratic accountability. The mission and public purposes of the BBC include provision of output and services to the UK’s nations, regions and communities. That provision is a key part of the BBC’s remit and we hold the BBC to account for it via Ofcom; it is also something we will look at very closely in the mid-term review.

The hon. Lady highlighted the loss of local expertise. BBC local radio stations have traditionally been a fantastic way to develop local talent which has gone on to be incredibly important national talent, so we have concerns about that. She talked about the need for consultation. I would have hoped to have had more chance to examine these proposals before they were released, and I shall be talking to the BBC about that next week. I am grateful to the hon. Lady for raising these issues.

[Mr Speaker]

I call the Chair of the Select Committee, Julian Knight.

[Julian Knight (Solihull) (Con)]

Does the Minister recognise the very real concerns about the potential loss of local distinctiveness through the proposed cuts? Should the BBC really be once again aping the commercial sector by coalescing around theme rather than genuine distinctiveness? That is where we are going with these plans. Does the Minister recognise that the cuts make reforms to radio prominence absolutely crucial? Will she quash growing rumours that the main potential vehicle for such reforms—the media Bill—is to be shelved or delayed?

[Julia Lopez]

I thank my hon. Friend the Chair of the Select Committee. I am particularly grateful to him and the Committee for their very important work and investigations into local journalism, and for the opportunity to present to the Committee a couple of weeks ago. One of the issues the proposals raise is whether the BBC investing more online has an impact on local news providers, which compete for that online space. On the media Bill, we in DCMS are keen to introduce it as soon as possible and we hope to be able to provide further details.

[Mr Speaker]

I call the shadow Minister, Stephanie Peacock.

[Stephanie Peacock (Barnsley East) (Lab)]

I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Emma Hardy) for securing this important urgent question, and you for granting it, Mr Speaker.

The BBC is a great British institution and local radio is the cornerstone of it. It is what the BBC does best: whether it be local traffic updates, school closures, weather or other news events, BBC local radio keeps over 6 million people across the country connected to their communities. I know that my local BBC station, Radio Sheffield, keeps the people of Barnsley informed. During the pandemic, it served as a lifeline, providing tailored local updates on the latest case numbers and guidance. More recently, local radio has shown that it has the power to keep national politicians accountable to the people we represent. Of course the BBC needs to change with the times and adapt to a world where people consume their media online, but those adaptations need not be in competition with the services that make the BBC the excellent institution it is.

Under this Government, however, the BBC has been continually undermined. In an already challenging economic environment, the Government’s looming threat of scrapping the licence fee while providing no alternative model has done nothing but further destabilise the position of the BBC. The consequences of that instability are now showing. The journalists on the ground, doing their job, have had to find out through the media that their jobs are at risk of redundancy.

The Minister must take some responsibility and answer the following questions. She said that there was no discussion between the Government and the BBC prior to the decision. What steps will she now take? May I press her again to say when we will finally see the long-awaited media Bill? How will Ministers ensure that people are still able to get high-quality local news and media that keep them connected, especially as local radio stations are often the last local newsroom standing in many areas? Does the Minister acknowledge that threatening the future of the BBC as a whole is already causing it great harm?

[Julia Lopez]

It is important to ask ourselves what “local” means in this context. If several counties or regions are stitched together, the service ceases to be local and relevant to local people, which we have concerns about. We recognise that the BBC is under pressure, as are many other media organisations, which is why we have a series of reforms that we hope to put through in the media Bill to help it with some of those pressures. However, I say to the hon. Lady that the BBC has a £3.8 billion annual income from the licence fee, and it has that income guaranteed for the next five years. Any media organisation would be grateful to have such stability in its funding settlement. I do not see that as destabilising. It is absolutely right that the Government ask some fundamental questions about the licence fee model in the years ahead. This is a rapidly changing media landscape and it is important that we get these decisions right.

On the next steps, as I mentioned to the House, I am seeing the director-general next week. We also have the mid-term review, where we will be examining some of the very matters being raised in this urgent question.

[Damian Green (Ashford) (Con)]

Along with many of my constituents, I am a huge admirer of the news and analysis provided by Radio Kent. It is particularly important these days when local commercial radio has effectively completely disappeared. Can the Minister assure the House that, when she meets the BBC, she will impress on it the importance of striking the right balance between traditional means of disseminating such information through radio and the newer online means, because the BBC will need to carry on doing both effectively if it is to fulfil its public purpose?

[Julia Lopez]

My right hon. Friend raises an important point. One thing the BBC does is serve every community, including those audiences who are not so capable of listening to things online and are not so digitally enabled. I am certainly happy to raise the points that he has just mentioned.

[Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab)]

Does not the fact that the Minister was not informed by the BBC ahead of these decisions demonstrate the poor relationship that the Government now have with the BBC? What does she think she can do to improve on that?

--- Later in debate ---

[Julia Lopez]

I think that I have a very positive relationship with the BBC, but it is operationally independent. In the context of some of the changes that are being made, it is important that we have an open and honest discussion about these proposals when we meet next week.

[Simon Jupp (East Devon) (Con)]

BBC local radio makes a difference to the community that it serves. It is also the service closest to communities that pay the licence fee. I am very concerned by the proposals, which will see an awful lot of programmes shared between BBC Radio Devon and BBC Radio Cornwall, and job losses too. What steps will my hon. Friend take to make sure that local news provision is protected?

[Julia Lopez]

My hon. Friend has particular experience as a former manager of BBC Radio Solent and a Select Committee member. As I have said previously, I am very grateful to the Select Committee for looking at some of these quite complex issues around local journalism. The question is: at what point does local journalism cease to be local if there is a merging between large geographical counties such as Devon and Cornwall. That causes me concern, and I would be happy to engage with him further on all of those issues.

[Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)]

Many of my constituents listen to Radio Merseyside, which is an excellent local radio station and probably one of the most popular in the country. It certainly has a good track record in dealing with local issues and in holding its politicians and others to account. I have to say to the Minister that we talk about local radio, but it is ceasing to be local because of what we have heard today. The next thing will be whether some of the local radio stations get closed—perhaps in a year or two’s time. That is where we are going. Should the BBC not be concentrating on investing more and on improving further the local content of radio stations? The Minister said that she was not happy with the way that this had been done. When was her Department told by the BBC that it was making these changes?

[Julia Lopez]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for raising the importance of Merseyside radio. On the matter of holding people to account, my understanding is that the proposals include an investment in investigative journalism, which could be a positive thing, but if we had been given further details, information and notice, I would have had a better understanding of the proposals. We were not given notice beyond the news release yesterday.

[Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con)]

The Minister is right to say that the Select Committee is very concerned about this announcement. We have taken a lot of evidence, including from her, on this subject. On BBC Radio Solent, which my constituents listen to, we think that, at weekends, there will be no purely local output at all—not even breakfast programmes—except, potentially, sports commentary. That is decimation. We hear that these regional investigative hubs will be put in place of truly local radio. Will the Minister ask the BBC, and will she give the House her opinion, as to whether that is what the licence fee payers—the BBC’s customers—actually want, because I very much doubt that that is the case?

--- Later in debate ---

[Julia Lopez]

The BBC is a public service broadcaster and it is there to deal with types of journalism that are not covered adequately by the market. That is why the BBC has support. If it is not delivering that kind of distinct local and regional content, we have to ask some very serious questions.

[Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab)]

Local radio was brilliant when it questioned the previous Prime Minister. Can the Minister reassure the House that this is not a done deal, and can she update the House on her discussions with the director-general?

[Julia Lopez]

I thank the right hon. Lady for raising those interviews with the previous Prime Minister. That has since led to a regular section on the Radio 4 “Today” programme where local radio stations are making a specific contribution to what is a national broadcasting programme, allowing us to get a much better flavour of what is going on across the country, and of the different opinions that regional and local news providers have on those national stories. That is where the value of the BBC really comes into play, and I really hope that that does not wither on the vine.

[Sir John Whittingdale (Maldon) (Con)]

I urge my hon. Friend to ask the BBC to think again. Will she remind it that stations such as BBC Essex are greatly valued by listeners and provide a service that is unavailable commercially? Online news is already well supplied by the local media, which is under considerable pressure even without greater competition from the BBC. Will she consider asking Ofcom to look into the impact of this decision on local publishers?

[Julia Lopez]

My right hon. Friend obviously has a great deal of expertise in these matters and I am grateful to him for raising the great content of BBC Essex. As I have said before, this is a great opportunity to show the strength of opinion across the House; the BBC is there precisely to serve audiences that are not covered by commercial radio. I would be happy to talk to Ofcom, because these are fundamental questions about the purpose of the BBC.

[Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)]

Can we just think about one example of how BBC local radio has impacted on all our everyday lives? During the pandemic the “Make a Difference: Give a Laptop” local radio campaign saw more than 116,000 laptops donated to schools and raised £1 million. I argue that that enabled children to carry on learning during one of the most disabling periods in our recent history. Is that not one incredibly convincing argument as to why we should protect and finance the BBC properly?

[Julia Lopez]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his contribution. He is right to highlight just how important those local radio services were during the pandemic, particularly as we were seeing lots of different restrictions in different parts of the country; they provided people with up-to-date information about the restrictions in their particular area. I appreciate what he says about the funding. We have guaranteed the BBC a large amount of funding for the next five years, but he is right to highlight some of the important work that it has done over the past few years.

[Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Aylesford) (Con)]

With my other half working in local radio as a presenter, I need to declare a personal interest in this issue. However, my support was strong long before we met, because I have always understood the importance of local radio and its value to its listeners, as I know you do, Mr Speaker, having spoken to you on many occasions about your affection for BBC Radio Lancashire. In a county such as Kent, local news delivered by local journalists who understand local need and culture is essential. It is not just about news, but about conversation and engagement. If my constituents want national news, they will go to the News Channel, but if they want local news, travel, weather, sport and what is going on around the county, they will tune into BBC Radio Kent. Merging Kent with Surrey and Sussex would be a travesty. Without being rude, why would Kent listeners want to hear about a local issue in Surrey or Sussex, and vice versa? Does my hon. Friend agree that any manager who thinks that local content should be shifted online neither knows their demographic—those who are most likely to be digitally disconnected—nor listens to it, and does not understand the definition of public service?

[Julia Lopez]

I thank my hon. Friend for raising the incredibly important work of BBC Radio Lancashire; I am grateful to be able to give it a shout-out. She raises the prospect of a merged Surrey-Sussex-Kent service, and she is right to highlight that that does not provide the kind of local, specialised content that people are looking for when they turn on the radio, and that there is a real risk that people will just turn to national services because that content is not sufficiently directed at them.

[Mr Speaker]

Of course BBC Radio Lancashire is so important, having Mike Stevens and Graham Liver there all the time.

[Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab)]

We all appreciate the brilliance, the quality, the objectivity and the outstanding journalism, production and research of BBC radio journalists—not least, in Hull, in the coverage of rugby league, which you and I are both fans of, Mr Speaker. I urge the Minister to impress upon the director-general the crucial importance of that local knowledge in local BBC radio.

[Julia Lopez]

I thank my hon. Friend—I mean the hon. Gentleman—for raising—

[Karl Turner]

Friend!

[Julia Lopez]

I thank my hon. Friend for raising the importance of the sports content in particular. I know there is so much passion for people’s local clubs, and if that news service is not there for those local clubs, that sense of disconnection becomes more prominent. I have not had time fully to absorb the proposals, and I think there is some talk of sports content being untouched by them, but I will ask his question of the director-general when I see him.

[Kevin Foster (Torbay) (Con)]

BBC Radio Devon is a key part of the news picture in my constituency. We have already seen the decline in commercial media, with the local daily paper becoming weekly and newsrooms closing. How will my hon. Friend satisfy herself that when the BBC promises sports coverage, that is not just commentary—for example, of tonight’s game—but about fully covering the clubs, as we have seen BBC Radio Devon covering well a number of issues affecting Torquay United?

[Julia Lopez]

I am glad my hon. Friend has taken the opportunity to raise the wonderful club of Torquay United and the important coverage that BBC local journalists provide to grassroots sport, which is key to ensuring that support for those small clubs continues. I shall ask the director-general about the importance of services in Devon and other rural counties when I see him.

[Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)]

Further to the point made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Walsall South (Valerie Vaz) about the effectiveness of BBC local radio in questioning the Prime Minister in September—kicked off, of course, by Rima Ahmed from the wonderful BBC Radio Leeds—the Minister will have heard from Members in all parts of the House just how important that local content is to us and our constituents. I urge her to take that sense of unhappiness to her meeting with the director-general and encourage him to change his mind.

[Julia Lopez]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his suggestion. As I hope he has gathered from my responses, this urgent question has been a useful opportunity for the House to make clear its very strong feelings on this issue and has allowed everybody to highlight particular parts of the country, the particular stories that come from those parts of the country and the talent that is nurtured in those local radio stations.

[Mr Speaker]

I will look to a rugby league man, Andy Carter.

[Andy Carter (Warrington South) (Con)]

It is true that the local media ecology has changed beyond all measurable doubt over the past 20 years, but nobody provides local radio in the UK like the BBC, because it is set up and funded as a public service broadcaster. That should be at the heart of the BBC’s delivery. Can my hon. Friend assure me that Ofcom will look carefully at the provision of local services to ensure that older audiences are not disenfranchised by this decision? How can she ensure that other local media provision, particularly online provision that relies on local revenues to support its services, is not impacted by the BBC disproportionately acting online?

[Julia Lopez]

My hon. Friend has great expertise, particularly in the area of radio, so he will understand that there is a delicate ecology here and we must ensure that whatever the BBC does enhances local journalism rather than creating sustainability questions for other local journalists, particularly if it starts to move services online. He makes a good point about radio content being at the heart of the BBC’s public service broadcasting mission, and it is a point I shall make to the director-general.

[Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)]

Thank you for calling me so early, Mr Speaker—obviously accelerated by the complete lack of Scottish Nat Members, which I am sure is by accident and not by design, but I do appreciate it.

Before we get carried away on a wave of claptrap, may I ask the obvious question? Does the Minister agree that there are many savings to be made in how the BBC distributes its regional services, and that those savings should be made? There is much duplication within the BBC. Many of us have given the same interview time and again on the same day for a number of regional radio stations and there has been no sharing of that across the BBC regional network, as should be the case. Of course, we have split services in Northern Ireland: we effectively have Radio Ulster and Radio Foyle, and there has been a removal of exciting local issues to do with, for example, 12 July coverage. All that has been removed from BBC radio locally. The Minister needs to make sure that, when she talks to the director-general, she makes those points also.

[Julia Lopez]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his contribution. I know he has very strong feelings about the BBC, which we discussed only yesterday in the Lobby. The BBC has a licence fee income of £3.8 billion a year, and there are big questions to be asked about what kind of content it should be delivering with that amount of money. I think the strength of feeling in this House is that this very local content is precisely what the BBC is there to deliver, because the commercial sector does not deliver it. People are content to pay for the licence fee when they think it is providing that kind of service.

[Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con)]

I declare an interest as a former employee of BBC Radio Tees and freelancer at BBC Radio Leeds. We all welcome investment in digital services and it is good that local sport will continue—speaking particularly as a rugby league fan of the Huddersfield Giants—but the message is coming through loud and clear: the Minister needs to ask the director-general and the chairman to look again at continuation of local coverage after 2 pm. It is vital in my neck of west Yorkshire, not just through the pandemic, but when we have bad weather, for school and college closures and updated road information. It is really important. Will she please press that with the DG and the chairman next week? We need proper local coverage throughout the day, not stopping at 2 pm.

[Julia Lopez]

I thank my hon. Friend for his contribution, not least because of his own background and expertise in BBC local radio. I have a great deal of sympathy with the BBC’s trying to future-proof the organisation, to ensure it is more available online and to deal with some of the challenges around digital, but it must look at its fundamental purpose. He is right to highlight the importance of local news in relation to specific local updates, whether that is weather, travel or particularly important democratic stories, and I shall be raising those issues with the director-general.

[Cat Smith (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Lab)]

I am sure you would agree with me, Mr Speaker, that while all local radio stations are good, BBC Radio Lancashire is the greatest of them all. All the more reason, then, to raise my concern that in Lancashire it is proposed that from 2 pm onwards we have shared services with Cumbria, from 6 pm onwards on weekdays it is shared with Greater Manchester and Merseyside, and on weekends just with Merseyside. Does the Minister agree that that fracturing of BBC local radio is a threat to democracy? For strong democracy we need strong, accountable local media to hold politicians right across our counties—including the greatest county, Lancashire—to account.

[Julia Lopez]

Let us give another shout-out to BBC Radio Lancashire, just so that Mr Speaker is content with me. The hon. Lady highlights the potential for geographically large and very diverse areas to be stitched together. As I say, after a point that ceases to be local content, and there is a serious question about democratic accountability, given that that is one of the primary purposes of public service broadcasting. Those are very real issues that need to be raised.

[Sir Mike Penning (Hemel Hempstead) (Con)]

I was surprised to hear that the Minister only heard about this in the last couple of days, because I heard about it last week through a whistleblower from my local area. That is very worrying. The second worrying thing is that the public trust local radio as they do not trust “Newsnight” or “Today”—frankly, because they do not listen to them. They trust local radio. If this is about money, then take half a million pounds out of Gary Lineker’s salary, or one of the others who earn extortionate salaries. That would pay for a lot of people at Three Counties Radio to keep their jobs.

[Julia Lopez]

I thank my right hon. Friend for raising his concerns. There is a social compact between the public and the BBC that we pay the licence fee on the basis that it provides us with this kind of content, and if it ceases to do that, that raises more fundamental questions. He raises a number of helpful points, and I shall make sure that they are addressed. I know that many Members across the Chamber feel strongly about some of the very large salaries in the BBC, and that goes to the heart of public trust in the BBC. If we had further details and a greater understanding of the cost savings in these proposals, we could have a more serious debate about it.

[John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)]

I am the secretary of the National Union of Journalists parliamentary group, and the Minister can imagine the crushing disappointment among NUJ members, because this comes on top of 450 job losses in BBC England and 400 job losses in the World Service. Our concern is that the digital first proposals are undermining the provision of news at the local, national and global level. I am pleased that she is meeting the BBC next week. I ask her to meet the NUJ group as well, so that we can brief her on what we know is happening on the ground as a result of cut after cut after cut from the BBC.

[Julia Lopez]

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for raising the NUJ’s concerns. It is important that many people get their training in local media organisations, which gives them a great grounding for going national. It is regrettable that these proposals come in Journalism Matters Week, at a time when there are a whole host of challenges facing local journalists.

[Kit Malthouse (North West Hampshire) (Con)]

I share the alarm expressed across the House and by the Minister at this move. I represent a part of Hampshire that often finds it hard to identify itself in the BBC schedules, squeezed as it is between BBC Radio Solent, which concentrates on the urban areas to the south of the county that are an hour away, and BBC Radio Berkshire, in a different county altogether, yet the BBC does just enough in my part of the world to make sure that the commercial sector cannot function or thrive in North West Hampshire. I urge the Minister not to mess about with this debate, which we have had many, many times over the years about the BBC. May I suggest that she talks to the Competition and Markets Authority about it doing a full review of the impact of the BBC on the commercial sector, both locally and nationally?

[Julia Lopez]

I thank my right hon. Friend for raising the issues in Hampshire. The mid-term review, which is a relatively new innovation, is looking at some of these questions on competition and market impact. If he has further details that he would like to feed into that about his local challenges in that regard, I would be happy to receive them, because the Department is looking at all these issues, and we expect to report next year.

[Kim Johnson (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab)]

The National Union of Journalists has warned that these cuts will not only cost jobs but risk diluting the breadth and quality of relevant local news, particularly for listeners in my Riverside constituency, who are served by the great BBC Radio Merseyside, which has fantastic journalists. Does the Minister agree that this represents a core part of the BBC’s function, and can she inform the House of what action she will take to protect the future of local news on BBC radio and television?

[Julia Lopez]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for again raising the NUJ’s point of view. As I have said in previous answers, BBC local radio is a great training ground for a number of journalists, and it would be regrettable if it started to be reduced in size. There are opportunities for journalists in some of the proposals that the BBC appears to be putting forward for investigative journalism, and those are to be welcomed. The BBC invests in a number of other initiatives, particularly the Local Democracy Reporting Service, but these are precisely the kinds of initiative that the BBC should be involved in, and we should all be concerned if it seems to be moving away from that.

[Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con)]

This is yet another own goal by the BBC, with no consultation and no dialogue with Ministers. The email that Members received referred to “changing audience expectations”. Actually, what thousands of my constituents expect is to be able to press a button and listen to Radio Humberside, which their radios are permanently tuned to. In the short term, may I urge her to get the BBC to drop these proposals? She referred to the charter review. As negotiations about the charter continue, may I urge her to emphasise that local radio is key to BBC provision?

[Julia Lopez]

I thank my hon. Friend for his question. He is right to highlight that this is precisely what people expect of and value from the BBC. I have a great deal of sympathy with the BBC needing to change and adapt to the changing media landscape, but it must not at the same time move away from its core purpose.

[Mr Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

The BBC is uniquely funded, and it needs to provide unique services. In Chesterfield we are well served by both Radio Sheffield and Radio Derby, and the quality of journalism on those stations is outstanding. It is not a public problem if the BBC is losing market share to Amazon or Netflix. Those organisations do what they do well, and the BBC should not be looking to replicate them; it should be looking to preserve those things that are precious and unique, and BBC radio is absolutely one of those things.

[Julia Lopez]

The hon. Gentleman makes his point powerfully. It is a core mission of the BBC to provide this kind of distinctive local content that relates to British people in the communities in which they live. If it is not concentrating on precisely this kind of content, there are wider questions to ask about whether it is delivering its remit in the right way.

[Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con)]

We have heard Members across the Chamber comment on the accountability of local democracy, but the truth of the matter is that the BBC has been undermining that for quite a while in Radio Leeds. We used to have something called “the hotspot”, which my West Yorkshire colleagues would have been on, and the right hon. Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn) and I have done debates together on Radio Leeds. Outside of the breakfast show, none of that happens any more. Some very dedicated people said a long time ago that the BBC was undermining local political content. It said that that content did not get the audience attraction, but it is supposed to be a public service broadcaster. It might be a relief for us not to have the public phone in and question us for an hour, which made us squirm, but it shows that the BBC itself has been undermining these services for a long time, certainly in Leeds, and a lot of very hard-working, dedicated people have been hung out to dry. Will my hon. Friend take a hard look at what the BBC has been doing and make sure that this does not amount to constructive dismissal?

[Julia Lopez]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for raising the important work that is done by BBC Radio Leeds and for giving a longer-term picture of what has been going on within these radio services. I shall speak to the director-general about those issues next week.

[Mike Amesbury (Weaver Vale) (Lab)]

BBC Radio Merseyside has provided a vital lifeline during the covid pandemic and the current cost of living crisis, as Members across the Chamber have said. It also serves the Cheshire part of my constituency, which is quite isolated and rural. It is a great incubator for new talent. How will the Minister update us on the outcome of the meetings with the director-general and the chairman of the BBC?

[Julia Lopez]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for raising that point about how the BBC is an important developer of local talent and local journalism. I shall meet the director-general next week and will probably write to Members who have asked questions so that they can have their points addressed from the outcome of that discussion.

[Tom Hunt (Ipswich) (Con)]

I think that BBC Radio Suffolk is, per head of population, the most listened to in the country. I am glad that we will be spared the indignity of Ipswich Town fans hearing detailed team news from Norwich City; that, at the very least, has been eliminated. Will the Minister confirm that in the move towards digitalisation, older listeners will be taken into account, as they disproportionately rely on and listen to BBC Radio Suffolk and are among its greatest fans? In her discussions with the BBC, will she have a conversation about the huge salaries that some BBC employees who are of questionable talent are currently on?

[Julia Lopez]

It is not for me to question the talent of those on very high salaries in the BBC. My hon. Friend rightly highlights the very healthy listening figures for local BBC radio stations, particularly among older listeners. These are the people who public service broadcasters are there to serve. It is important that the BBC future-proofs itself and makes sure it is ready for the digital age, but it must not forget its core purpose and mission in the process of doing that.

[Grahame Morris (Easington) (Lab)]

In my capacity as co-chair of the NUJ parliamentary group, I and other Members of Parliament from both sides of the House had opportunities to meet journalists from BBC News, the World Service and local radio, including some of the journalists from Radio Humberside. I was quite encouraged the Minister has referred to one of the issues they raised—that the BBC has an obligation under its royal charter to ensure that it provides output and services that meet the needs of the UK’s nations, regions and communities. Much of that is provided by BBC local radio. Will the Minister urge Ofcom to undertake an urgent and thorough review of all of the BBC’s digital first proposals, including the impact on BBC local radio, to ensure that the BBC continues to fulfil its public service obligation? Will she also meet the NUJ group?

[Julia Lopez]

The NUJ is well represented here today, and I am sure it is grateful for that. Ofcom regulates the BBC, but we are undertaking a mid-term review and we shall seek Ofcom’s input into that. The hon. Gentleman raises the digital first strategy, which raises questions about whether the BBC is increasing its presence in online content and whether that has a knock-on effect on local journalism and other local outlets. Those are all issues that we are considering as part of the mid-term review, and I am grateful for his input.

[Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)]

Despite raising about 20% of its total revenue from the midlands, the BBC currently spends only about 2% of its total budget there. The BBC is often accused of being London-focused, London-centric and out of touch with the sentiment of the public outside the capital. Does the Minister agree that any further reductions in regional services will only exacerbate that perception?

[Julia Lopez]

That issue was a real passion of the former Secretary of State, who secured several commitments from the BBC about moving services out of London and trying to get better representative content, be that socioeconomic or regional and local. My hon. Friend raises an important question about whether the BBC adequately represents every corner of our country, and such questions are ripe for raising.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

The beauty of BBC local radio is that it does what it says on the tin—it is local—and that is true of all the radio stations, including those that cover big cities, such as BBC Radio Manchester. They do not just cover stories in the city centre: they cover stories in the suburbs, in places such as Denton and Reddish. It is important that we keep that local link to news stories and sport. The Minister knows that local radio stations are also an important pipeline for developing the creative media and the workforce for other media outlets. Can she get some guarantees from the BBC that nothing it proposes will harm that creative pipeline?

[Julia Lopez]

The hon. Gentleman raises an important point about the BBC, which is important not just for the BBC itself but the wider creative economy. Some of the investment that the BBC makes in local journalism has a knock-on benefit for other media organisations, and that creates a flourishing local media ecology. He is right to highlight that, and I am also grateful to him for highlighting the great work of BBC Radio Manchester.

[Anna Firth (Southend West) (Con)]

The city of Southend has one of the oldest demographics in the country, so will my hon. Friend assure me that she will stress to the BBC how valued BBC Essex is by our elderly population? It does a wonderful job, especially of celebrating our local heroes, such as disability hero Jill Allen-King, and raising thousands of pounds every year for charities as varied as the Music Man Project, the Endometriosis Foundation and prostate charities. Will she stress to the BBC the detriment to our local charities in Southend if that service is restricted?

[Julia Lopez]

I hope that the BBC listens carefully to all the points that hon. Members are raising today. As a public service broadcaster, the BBC is there to serve all demographics, but particularly those who are poorly served by other means. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for highlighting the charity work that her local radio station, BBC Radio Essex, has been so excellent in pursuing.

[Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)]

I echo the comments made by my hon. Friends already about the excellent services provided by Radio Sheffield—local news, local motoring and local football. The key is the word “local”. People in Sheffield and south Yorkshire want to know what is happening in their immediate communities: frankly, they are not desperately interested in what is happening in Leeds and west Yorkshire. I suspect the reverse is also true. While we seem to be promised that the local morning news will be protected, it appears that excellent programmes such as those on Radio Sheffield in the afternoon will be scrapped and merged into some amorphous regional offering. Will the Minister tell the director-general that that simply should not be allowed to happen and is not what local people want?

[Julia Lopez]

The hon. Member’s point goes to the fundamental question of at what point local news ceases to be local. I shall ask the director-general that very question.

[Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con)]

My hon. Friend was spot on to describe BBC local radio as one of the crown jewels of our public sector broadcaster. BBC Hereford and Worcester was a vital lifeline during the pandemic and many times during the all-too frequent floods in Worcester. In a debate in which we have heard much about rugby league, I am keen to make the case for rugby union. Will she join me in urging the BBC to make sure that BBC Hereford and Worcester is able to cover the fightback and return to the premiership of the Worcester Warriors?

[Julia Lopez]

I commend my hon. Friend on his plug for the Worcester Warriors. He is right about the very specific stories that are covered by BBC local radio and their importance, particularly in times of need and difficulty during the pandemic or local floods. It is that content that is so valued by communities of the kind that he represents.

[Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op)]

It is simple—no local BBC, no BBC. It is where the news breaks and where communities are served, and in York BBC Radio York served us incredibly well during the floods and continues to be part of our community all day and through the night. The most worrying part of the proposals is that we will lose public service broadcasting time in our communities, something that needs to be protected in the light of the commercial sector and its interests. When the Minister meets the director-general, will she ensure that she stresses the importance of public service broadcasting and the need for it to be reinforced in the role of the BBC and its responsibilities to licence payers?

[Julia Lopez]

The hon. Lady is right to highlight that—it is what public service broadcasting is about. My worry is that such proposals stand to undermine the social compact between licence fee payer and the BBC. We have a special arrangement for the BBC because we expect it to provide the kind of content that is not otherwise provided by the market.

[Chris Loder (West Dorset) (Con)]

Members have shared their concerns that their local radio station will be merged or shared after 2 pm. What should be BBC Radio Dorset stops at 9 am. We should all be clear about the direction of travel of this proposal. My constituents are clear that their priorities when they pay their licence fee are local programmes and local news. It is not acceptable to them that we have multi-million pound salaries paid by the BBC but local news is not available to them. Will the Minister please petition very strongly the director-general and the chairman of the BBC to change these initiatives and re-prioritise Dorset?

--- Later in debate ---

[Julia Lopez]

I had the pleasure of staying in my hon. Friend’s constituency for a few days recently, when I enjoyed the BBC local services on offer which provided a distinct flavour of the region and the local community he represents. It is a point made by many hon. Members that that is the kind of content that people pay the licence fee for, and the BBC should be in no doubt about that.

[Mr Speaker]

I call the voice of Ulster, Jim Shannon.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

Thank you, Mr Speaker. I thank the Minister for her response to questions today. Impartiality is critical. BBC services in Northern Ireland are somewhat limited, but some programming—outside the oft-biased news pieces—is used to promote cultural events such as a Burns night supper or an Irish evening. Can the Minister confirm that the proposed reduction will include a focus on cutting the cost of some of the overpaid staff and rekindling local cultural programmes that are enjoyable and very informative?

[Julia Lopez]

I know that the hon. Gentleman feels strongly about issues of impartiality in the BBC, and the former Secretary of State extracted several commitments from it, with a 10-point plan to take that forward. As other Members have, he highlights the issue of salary disparity and whether the BBC is putting money in the right places. Those are all questions that need to be answered.

[Mr Speaker]

We have saved the best until last. I call Dr Neil Hudson from Cumbria.

[Dr Neil Hudson (Penrith and The Border) (Con)]

I share the concerns raised by hon. Members on both sides of the House and by the Minister about these retrograde proposals. In rural areas such as Cumbria, people rely on local radio stations such as BBC Radio Cumbria and on terrestrial TV. They provide a lifeline for news and education, mitigate against rural isolation and support people’s rural mental health. Does she agree that we should resist such reductions and that, in fact, we should bolster and support such vital services?

[Julia Lopez]

I have said several times, and I will say again, that this is the kind of public service broadcasting content that people pay their licence fee for. Hon. Members have got their views on the issue across loud and clear. I am grateful to everyone who has participated in the urgent question and I will take all the comments and issues that have been raised to the director-general when I meet him next week.

[Mr Speaker]

I think the Chamber is united, which is good. Thank you, Minister.

Product Security and Telecommunications Infrastructure Bill

Julia Lopez Excerpts

Consideration of Lords amendments
Monday 31st October 2022 Commons Chamber

[The Minister of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Julia Lopez)]

I beg to move, That this House disagrees with Lords amendment 17.

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

With this it will be convenient to discuss Lords amendments 1 to 16.

[Julia Lopez]

I am pleased to see the progress that the Bill has made since it left this House before the summer, and I am grateful to Members in the other place for their scrutiny of it. Fast, reliable and secure digital connections are the cornerstone of a competitive economy and thriving society, and the sooner the legislation comes into force, the better. As hon. Members will recall from earlier stages of the Bill, its objective is twofold: first, to speed up the roll-out of 5G and gigabit-capable broadband; and secondly, to protect and enhance the security of consumer connectable products, such as monitors, doorbells, connected kitchen appliances and so on, so that users can get their benefits without being exposed to risk. I am confident that the Bill will do just that.

I will start by explaining the need for the relatively straightforward Government amendments tabled by my now former colleague, Lord Kamall, whom I thank and pay tribute to. I will then move on to Lords amendment 17, with which I hope the House will disagree.

Lords amendments 1 to 11 seek to implement recommendations made by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. Those recommendations relate only to part 1, on product security. The amendments change the parliamentary procedure for two delegated powers from the negative resolution procedure to the affirmative resolution procedure. Those are the powers in clause 3, the power to deem compliance with security requirements, and clause 9, the power to exempt manufacturers from needing to draw up a statement of compliance. The amendments will also ensure that the Secretary of State is able to authorise another person to exercise enforcement functions only by making regulations rather than by agreement. Those regulations will also be subject to the affirmative resolution procedure. We have carefully considered the Committee’s regulations and we are happy to accept those three.

On part 2 of the Bill, on telecoms infrastructure, Lords amendments 12 to 14 would remove the clause formerly known as clause 57 and make relevant consequential amendments to the version of the Bill that this House sent to the other place. That clause was intended to address difficulties that had arisen following upper tribunal and Court of Appeal decisions on the meaning of “occupier”. However, a judgment of the Supreme Court on this very issue was made during the Bill’s journey through the other place, and the judgment resolves the policy concerns that clause 57 was designed to address. As a result, we think it is no longer necessary to retain that clause, and its removal will ensure clarity and certainty for all users of the code.

Lords amendment 15 was made by the Government following a lot of debate and work by my team of officials, and I expect hon. Members on all sides will be pleased to see it realised in the Bill. It gives operators the rights to facilitate two things. First, the amendment makes it easier for a telegraph pole to be shared that is used by an operator other than the operator that owns the pole. Secondly, it makes it easier for the equipment on a pole to be upgraded—for example, by replacing an old copper line with a fibre-optic one.

This amendment is something that many of my hon. Friends and hon. Members, and indeed the telecoms industry, were asking for. Overhead lines are used to provide a substantial proportion of network delivery across the country, and we think the amendment will therefore play a very important role in delivering better services to our constituents. We have listened carefully to stakeholders, and as well as meeting the needs of operators, I can assure hon. Members that we have included safeguards to protect the interests of private landowners and occupiers. For example, the legislation will not provide operators with an automatic right of entry on to private land. I hope that this amendment will therefore be welcomed.

The final Government amendment, Lords amendment 16, concerns an issue that has not yet been discussed in this House, so I should spend a little more time explaining its rationale. The amendment is intended to protect the autonomy and integrity of our national security, defence and law enforcement sites across the country. As it stands, the electronic communications code allows telecoms operators to seek consensual agreements with landowners to install and maintain telecoms equipment on private and public land, including sensitive national security, defence and law enforcement sites. If an agreement cannot be reached, a telecoms operator may seek a court order imposing such an agreement, potentially giving the operator access to those sensitive sites without consent. The code works in this way to make sure that operators can deliver the 5G and gigabit-capable broadband roll-out at pace.

However, this process does raise some national security concerns, including physical security, technical security and legal risks, which I shall go into a little further. On physical security, the presence of engineers and site surveyors on particularly sensitive sites, potentially without proper security clearance, could pose a national security risk. On technical security, the installation of 5G equipment on particularly sensitive Government sites could pose communications and information security risks.

Finally, on legal risks, the courts that consider proceedings under the code are not able to undertake closed material proceedings. That means that classified national security concerns cannot be evidenced properly, which might lead to courts granting access to sensitive sites without a full awareness of the risks. Lords amendment 16 seeks to address those particular national security risks without undermining our ambitious gigabit-capable broadband and 5G roll-out plans. It will confer powers on the relevant Secretary of State to intervene and prevent a court from imposing an agreement sought by an operator.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the Minister very much for her presentation. In relation to personal data—my constituents contact me about it all the time, and probably hers do as well—can we be assured that, through this Bill, personal data will not be available to people who do not have the right to access it?

[Julia Lopez]

I think that is probably for other legislation, but if the hon. Member would like to discuss further with me, perhaps in relation to the Data Protection and Digital Information Bill, I would be very happy to do so.

Turning back to Lords amendment 16, I have to emphasise that it is not a blanket national security exemption. It is a very specific power that will be deployed only rarely, on a case-by-case basis and only when all other routes to a mutually consensual solution have been exhausted.

Finally, turning to the last amendment in the group, I hope the House will disagree with Lords amendment 17. The amendment adds a new clause to the Bill requiring the Secretary of State to commission an independent review of the effect of the electronic communications code and of the Telecommunications Infrastructure (Leasehold Property) Act 2021.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

It is the Minister’s belief that the Bill will be a remedy for the problems in the market. She will acknowledge that, while there are only a few of us in the House who do so, there is a rather larger number out there who believe that it will make a bad situation significantly worse. The Lords amendment at least gives the opportunity of finding out who is right about this—whether it is her belief that the situation will be better or mine that it will be worse. It will put some proof into the pudding. Why must she resist it?

[Julia Lopez]

I shall set out my reasons for resisting now, but I am afraid I am not of the same opinion as my right hon. Friend on this issue. I have looked at it at length: I have looked at casework and the numbers of renewals, and I believe a review would simply cause a great deal of delay, which would further stymie roll-out.

[Selaine Saxby (North Devon) (Con)]

I thank the Minister for her intervention on this. Does she agree with me, as chair of the all-party group on broadband and digital communication, that the industry is desperately concerned that this review amendment will wreck the intentions of the Bill, and in constituencies like mine in North Devon will simply slow down the roll-out of this vital infrastructure further?

[Julia Lopez]

I agree and I thank my hon. Friend for making the point. It seems sensible and benign, but it would significantly delay roll-out and create a great deal of uncertainty.

I understand why Members in the other place tabled this amendment. Its aims are noble, but it is impractical and unnecessary and would have a disastrous effect on investment in telecoms infrastructure, leading to a slow-down in getting great connectivity to the places that most need it, particularly rural constituencies. The Government and Ofcom already produce regular reports on coverage targets and competition, and to that extent the amendment is unnecessary and would duplicate effort.

On the subject of coverage and targets, we are making great progress. We have listened at length to the concerns in both Houses and among stakeholders, and we of course understand that there are tensions between landowners and operators that must be resolved, albeit a lot of progress has been made since 2017. This Bill tries to resolve some of the challenges, particularly by introducing more collaborative negotiations and a greater use of alternative dispute resolutions.

The prospect of another full-scale review of the code framework would have the opposite effect, exacerbating existing tensions by prolonging that debate about valuation. The result would be a cooling effect on the market, with landowners and operators reluctant to conclude agreements until the review was completed. That would seriously delay the delivery of digital services, including gigabit-capable connections and 5G coverage, which so many of our constituents tell us they need and which hon. Members hold me to account for every day because those things are important to economic growth and social wellbeing in their constituencies, particularly rural ones. I urge hon. Members not to stitch further delays into the process through the uncertainty created by a review. For these reasons, although amendment 17 is well-intentioned, it is disproportionate and unhelpful, and I hope the House will disagree to it.

I am nearly at the end of my speech, but I want to thank all Members who have contributed to debates on this Bill, especially the hon. Member for Barnsley East (Stephanie Peacock) and her predecessor the hon. Member for Ogmore (Chris Elmore). Parliamentary scrutiny here and in the other place has provided the Government with much food for thought, allowing us to refine and improve the legislation, and I am pleased that Members on both sides of the House support the objectives of this much-needed Bill in recognition of the importance of digital connectivity to the people and communities we serve and the security of the products that will be increasingly present in their lives.

[Stephanie Peacock (Barnsley East) (Lab)]

Labour has always broadly welcomed the principles of this Bill and has supported amendments, whether Government or Opposition-led, that strike a sensible balance. That remains the case today, and as such I welcome the Government amendments before us. I will instead focus my remarks on amendment 17 on a review of the electronic communications code.

Labour stands firmly behind the aim of improving roll-out. Digital connectivity is a necessity, not a luxury in this day and age. In order to participate in society—from banking to shopping, to education and using public services—access to the digital world is crucial for people of all ages and in every corner of the country. As such, it is vital that we facilitate the building, maintaining and upgrading of digital infrastructure that allows for this connectivity.

The last Labour Government delivered on this belief, ensuring the creation of infrastructure that brought first-generation broadband to around 13 million households by 2009, but unfortunately over the last 12 years roll-out simply has not gone as far or as fast as we would like. Both broadband and 5G roll-out have been woefully slow, and the Government have repeatedly reduced their targets. We therefore support the aim of part 2 of this Bill, to speed up roll-out to the levels needed. The amendment that calls for a review of the electronic communication code is proposed with the firm intention of boosting rather than jeopardising roll-out. It would ensure that a balanced evidence base is built surrounding the changes made to regulation in the last five years so that concerns held by both landowners and operators can be addressed objectively and in the public interest.

--- Later in debate ---

[Julia Lopez]

I thank hon. Members for their contributions and for the wide-reaching support for the Bill, as that shows recognition of its importance.

The 2017 reforms were introduced to drive roll-out and were designed to make rents more akin to those for a key utility. There were, no doubt, issues after 2017 that led to protracted negotiations and examples of poor practice by operators, some of which we heard in Committee, but I am confident that we are now reaching market equilibrium, and renewal numbers are increasing year on year.

We believe that the Bill will lead to further progress, and we are making great progress on the roll-out. Our national gigabit coverage was 6% in 2019 and it is now more than 70%; 4G coverage is at 92%; and we met our 5G target five years early. We review the situation. We have monthly stakeholder meetings that have led to a new national connectivity alliance between operators and landlords. I assure the House that I am not on the side of either operators or landlords in the negotiations; I am on the side of people with poor connectivity. That is the lens through which I view the amendments and such people are our motivation, plain and simple.

I thank the Bill team and all the officials across many Departments who have worked hard over the past couple of years to reach this stage. The Bill will help people up and down the country to access the digital services that they need, and to do so securely. If the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) would like me to, I shall take up the issues in his constituency. Beyond that, I commend the Bill to the House.

Question put, That this House disagrees with Lords amendment 17.