Grand Committee
Arrangement of Business
The Senior Deputy Speaker (Lord Gardiner of Kimble)
My Lords, if there is a Division in the Chamber while we are sitting, this Committee will adjourn as soon as the Division Bells are rung and resume after 10 minutes.
Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022 (Extraction of information from electronic devices) (Amendment of Schedule 3) Regulations 2023
(1 year, 6 months ago)
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Lord Sharpe of Epsom
That the Grand Committee do consider the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022 (Extraction of information from electronic devices) (Amendment of Schedule 3) Regulations 2023.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Sharpe of Epsom) (Con)
My Lords, the extraction of information powers introduced in the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022 have provided a statutory basis for police and other authorised persons to obtain information from electronic devices to support investigations.
These powers came into force last November, along with a code of practice that provides guidance to authorised persons to ensure that the powers are used appropriately and effectively. They can be exercised by the authorised persons named in Schedule 3 to the Act. This is divided into three parts, which set out the different purposes for which authorised persons may exercise the powers. It is crucial that authorised persons extract information only for the purposes set by the part of the schedule in which they are placed.
At present, the Royal Navy Police, the Royal Military Police and the Royal Air Force Police can extract information only for the purposes set out under Section 37 of the Act:
“preventing, detecting, investigating or prosecuting crime … helping to locate a missing person, or … protecting a child or an at-risk adult from neglect or physical, mental or emotional harm”.
These regulations will amend Schedule 3 so that the Royal Navy Police, the Royal Military Police and the Royal Air Force Police are moved from Part 2 to Part 1 of the schedule. This change will allow these police forces also to extract information from a deceased person’s electronic device, using the power in Section 41, for the purpose of an investigation or inquest into that person’s death.
Electronic devices such as mobile phones contain a wealth of personal information and can be helpful in an investigation when someone has died in unexplained circumstances. Although data protection regulations do not apply to deceased persons, we must still ensure that information extracted from an electronic device where the user of the device has died is handled appropriately and sensitively. Additionally, an electronic device such as a mobile phone or laptop is almost certain to contain information about living people, so the authorised person will still need to be satisfied that extracting such information is necessary and proportionate.
The powers under Section 41 of the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022, much like the powers under Section 37 of the Act, can be exercised only where the authorised person reasonably believes that there is information on the device that is relevant to the purposes set out under this section—in this case for an investigation or inquest into a person’s death. It is vital that these intrusive powers are available only to the authorities that need them. When the Bill was passed, it was not yet agreed that the Royal Navy Police, the Royal Military Police and the Royal Air Force Police had sufficient investigative requirement to use Section 41 powers or that their investigative needs could not be met with other existing powers.
Having taken time thoroughly to consider their case, we are now in agreement with these police forces that their investigative duties meet the requirements for use of the powers and that, without access to them, there may be a gap in their ability lawfully to extract information in these circumstances. For this reason, we are amending their position in Schedule 3 to ensure that they can investigate the death of a person as thoroughly as possible. This amendment will ensure that the Royal Navy Police, the Royal Military Police and the Royal Air Force Police have the same powers to extract information from electronic devices as civilian forces. It will also provide them with the ability to carry out their investigations as thoroughly as possible by giving them the ability to extract information from a deceased person’s device for the purpose of an investigation or inquest into that person’s death.
I very much hope that noble Lords will support this amendment to Schedule 3 of the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022. I commend the regulations to the Grand Committee and I beg to move.
Lord German (LD)
My Lords, this is a straightforward piece of secondary legislation, adding the Royal Military Police, the Royal Air Force Police and the Royal Navy Police to the list of people who can exercise extraction of information powers under Section 41 of the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022.
First, I declare what may be a tangential interest: I have a son-in-law who flies jets for the RAF. I would never have thought about it, but it is possible that his and my family would be affected if Section 41 powers were to be used in the event of his untimely death, if that were to happen.
I have two questions to ask the Minister. They relate to the guidance in the extraction of information code of practice, which was provided in relation to the Act and as a result of the words of the Information Commissioner, who believed that this was necessary. I am pleased that it is provided.
My first question relates to paragraph 69 of the guidance, which talks about the use of a mobile phone device “around the time of” the death of the person concerned. It uses the words “the user”. Earlier, in relation to Section 37 of the Act, the code of practice talks about where people are not necessarily the owner of the phone or mobile device. It distinguishes clearly people who own a phone from people who have a phone which is owned by somebody else—something we parliamentarians know because we have a parliamentarian phone that is not our property but is used for all sorts of communication, as well as for the business of Parliament. I do not expect the Minister to have an answer yet, but could there be some clarification of paragraph 69 that refers back to the earlier information given in the code of practice to say exactly what it means about a shared-user phone?
My second question is about paragraph 90 of the code and current practice among police forces to keep up to date with technology in order to separate personal information from necessary information related to the event being investigated—the death, criminal event or whatever. Does the Minister have any information about whether police forces of all sorts are using similar technology? The real problem, which is quite obvious, is that there is a variety of technological options available to police forces and they may all be using different ones. That means that they may not necessarily be able to do what is required in the code of practice and keep up to date with
“the technology options available in their organisations”.
There may be a question here—again, the Minister may not be able to answer it now—about whether the technology available to police forces is of sufficient robustness to allow them to be ahead of the game and whether there is one piece of software that is recommended for police forces to use.
With those two questions, I am perfectly satisfied that this is a sensible piece of legislation.
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)
My Lords, I too am happy to say that this is a straightforward statutory instrument, and we are happy to support it from the Labour Party’s point of view. The SI adds members of the Royal Navy Police, the Royal Military Police and the Royal Air Force Police to those given the power to extract information from a device after a user of that device has died, as part of an investigation or inquest into the death, to investigate crime and to safeguard others.
I think it is fair to ask the Minister why these police forces were left out of the original Bill. Was there a particular reason, or was the consultation process not complete?
The Labour Party tabled a series of amendments to the PCSC Bill creating new checks on police powers to extract data from electronic devices. This was due to concerns about vulnerable people and the intrusive nature of these searches—in particular, for rape and sexual abuse victims, who can feel that requests for information, including digital information taken from their phone, can be overly invasive and collect highly personal information that is not relevant to the inquiry. It may make people more reluctant to come forward to the police if they know that they will get this interrogation of their phones.
I understand that this SI covers something different—cases in which the owner of the device has died—and we are happy to support this amendment. However, I would still like to ask the Minister what assurance he can give about how devices and information taken from them will be handled sensitively so as not to discourage potential victims and witnesses from coming forward.
There have also been serious concerns about digital resources and the use of digital information by the police, outlined in the report last year from His Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire & Rescue Services. Can the Minister give any update on what action is being taken and whether any specific concerns have been raised about the use of digital items by the forces being given additional powers today? That is a more general question; the two questions raised by the noble Lord, Lord German, are very pertinent, so I shall be interested to hear the Minister’s response on shared-user phones and what impact the measure would have on them, as well as on the interoperability of different technologies and different police forces, as I am sure that that will be a tripping block. I am sure that it is not the intention to create any problems but it is always difficult, in my experience, to get different sources of technology to work together in a seamless way. That seems to be a challenge facing businesses, police forces and everybody battling with new digital technologies. However, overall, we support this SI.
Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)
My Lords, I thank both noble Lords who have spoken in this very short debate. I shall address all the questions asked of me shortly. Before I do that, I make the general point that the introduction of extraction of information powers in the 2022 Act and its code of practice are just the start of changes being made to improve the experiences of victims involved in the criminal justice system. These specific powers were introduced to ensure that victims and witnesses who report crime can be confident that their personal information will be handled appropriately and that their privacy rights will be respected.
As has been discussed, the amendment relates to the extraction of information from electronic devices when the device user is deceased, so some of the issues debated during the passage of the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill are not available there.
The noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, asked why it was not introduced with regard to these police forces in the original iteration. As I said in my opening remarks, at the time it was not agreed that the Royal Navy Police, the Royal Military Police and the Royal Air Force Police had a sufficient investigative requirement to use Section 41 powers or that their investigative needs could not be met with other existing powers. We have now taken the time thoroughly to consider their case and are in agreement with those police forces that their investigative duties meet the requirements for the use of the powers. In short, it is about ensuring that giving those police forces those powers is indeed the proportionate and correct thing to do, which is why it has taken a little bit of time.
On some of the more technical questions asked of me by the noble Lord, Lord German, there is a broader debate here about whether extraction of information from a personal device is always necessary, given the risks to privacy. Of course, there is a balance to be struck, which must be achieved when undertaking any investigation. All reasonable lines of inquiry must be followed to guarantee a fair trial with the right to privacy. As I said in my opening remarks, it is vital that victims and witnesses feel confident to come forward, but it is equally important that police and other agencies have access to the evidence that they need—I accept that there is no disagreement about this—including mobile data, to fully investigate crime and guarantee a fair trial.
Where information is being extracted from a deceased person’s device, the authorised person must have reasonable belief that the information on that device is relevant to an investigation or inquest into that person’s death, and be satisfied that extracting the information is necessary and proportionate. In answer to the specific question about “the device”—whether it is the owner’s own or one that just happens to be in use—I think it is any device that happens to be in the deceased’s possession. If I am wrong on that, I will of course come back and clarify. By the way, I sincerely hope that it is never a personal matter.
Lord German (LD)
Just to interrupt the Minister for a second, I was asking whether a common set of software is used across police forces.
Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)
I am coming to that. There is a digital evidence programme, because the Government are determined to address the challenges associated with selectively extracting, analysing and reporting digital evidence gathered in criminal investigations, as we have been discussing.
We are supporting the Police Digital Service with £1.36 million in 2023-24 to undertake work to better understand the challenges in this area and to work with the private sector to develop and test new technologies. The evidence programme has been set up with a wide range of deliverables, including landscape reviews of force capabilities and gaps; creation of a new RASSO tech partnership board, bringing actors across policing together with the private sector—please do not ask me what the acronym RASSO stands for; development and testing of a range of private sector tech products within police forces; and, through the ACE impact lab process, working with technology companies to develop innovative solutions to key RASSO problems. The work is focused on solving the problems that victims experience and the selective extraction, analysis and reporting of digital evidence. It is fairly safe to say that all the questions asked of me by the noble Lord will be covered under that piece of work.
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)
I am sorry to interrupt the Minister again, but the acronym RASSO stands for rape and serious sexual offences.
Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)
I thank the noble Lord very much for that.
On the progress being made on recommendation 5 of the HMICFRS report, which relates to budgets and the funding of digital forensics, we have also set up a commissioning board, jointly led by policing and the Home Office, to enable joint decision-making around prioritisation and to increase the transparency of funding decisions, including those in digital forensics, in line with that recommendation. In addition, we are investing £11 million into providing forces with technology that will enhance their capability to carry out rape investigations quickly and to provide a better service to victims.
I thank noble Lords very much for their questions. I hope I have answered them; I think I have. In closing, I repeat my thanks for the time taken to discuss and consider these issues. I once again commend the regulations to the Committee.
Environmental Permitting (England and Wales) (Amendment) (England) Regulations 2023
(1 year, 6 months ago)
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Lord Benyon
That the Grand Committee do consider the Environmental Permitting (England and Wales) (Amendment) (England) Regulations 2023.
Relevant document: 36th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee (special attention drawn to the instrument)
The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Benyon) (Con)
My Lords, the purpose of this instrument is to make nine minor amendments to the environmental permitting regulations 2016 as applied to groundwater activities. Groundwater is a critical national resource; it provides a clean and reliable source of drinking water, plays a vital role across many industry sectors, and supports ecosystems. The Government are committed to ensuring that the quality of our groundwater resources is protected.
In the face of growing pressures from climate change and population growth, it is important to optimise the regulatory tools available for managing and protecting groundwater quality. The environmental permitting regulations 2016 are an effective tool for managing groundwater activities. However, several limitations with the way the regulations implement groundwater protections have been identified, which has led to inconsistencies in approach within the wider environmental permitting regulations regime. These limitations can be resolved by the nine amendments, which will support many industries by reducing regulatory burden and costs, facilitating green energy production from geothermal and ground source heat, promoting growth and accelerating permit delivery. These amendments also create the right regulatory conditions to promote and allow innovation within the circular economy, allowing the appropriate and safe reuse of materials where it is environmentally acceptable. I now turn to the detail of these amendments.
Currently, groundwater activities can be permitted only through the use of bespoke environmental permits, which are the highest level of permits. This results in higher than necessary costs and an unnecessary level of regulatory burden to businesses. This instrument will give the regulators the ability to grant other types of permits, such as standard rules permits and mobile plant permits. Those non-bespoke permits are significantly less costly and reduce the administrative burden on businesses while maintaining environmental standards.
The instrument will also introduce exemptions from the requirement of an environmental permit for new cemeteries that pose a low risk of pollution to the groundwater environment. The public consultation received 264 responses and almost all the proposals received majority support. Following feedback on the cemeteries proposal and further discussion with key stakeholders, adjustments have been made to the cemetery-specific amendments to enable greater clarity and ease implementation issues.
Another aspect of this SI is that controls will be applied to prevent groundwater pollution from currently uncontrolled pollutants such as heat and micro-organisms. As heat will be added as a pollutant, the majority of closed-loop ground heat pump activities will be exempt from the requirement of an environmental permit. The instrument will also help to fix a loophole in the general binding rules for small sewage discharges, which are currently being exploited, resulting in harm to nearby environmental habitats and local water quality. These new rules will reduce the risk of groundwater pollution.
The current wording of the environmental permitting regulations 2016 is unclear on the breach of permit conditions. The instrument will help to bring clarity around the liability of sewage undertakers following a breach of permit conditions due to specific circumstances beyond their control. To bring the regulations in line with current operational practices and facilitate energy recovery and the latest green technology, the current list of exemptions from the prohibition on direct discharges to groundwater needs to be updated. This instrument will update the list.
Finally, there will be a requirement for operators of onshore oil and gas facilities to apply to surrender their groundwater activity permits. Regulators need to be satisfied that any pollution issues are remediated and there are no ongoing risks to the groundwater environment at the point of decommissioning or that may arise in future. This will ensure that the environment is better protected.
These amendments will bring about benefits for groundwater quality, will reduce unnecessary costs to businesses and will also help to ensure that government resources are being used most effectively to protect and preserve groundwater quality for future generations. I beg to move.
Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for presenting the regulations before us this afternoon and the opportunity to put one or two questions. He will recall the history of the attempt to frack—the use of hydraulic fracturing—in North Yorkshire, and that the one reason it was not allowed to happen was because no permit was given for the water supply and the reuse of water.
I am very grateful to the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee for its 36th Report, which says that Defra has no intention of revisiting that issue. Can I press my noble friend the Minister to ensure that there will be no end to the current moratorium on hydraulic fracturing, or fracking, in any part of England, to the extent that it might fall within the regulations before us this afternoon? If there was to be an end to the moratorium, can he give us an undertaking that the Government—whichever department it happened to be, as departments come and go—would actually come before both Houses with revised permitting, with regard to fracking?
I now turn to the Explanatory Memorandum, starting with paragraph 7.16 onwards, relating to groundwater activities and the use of geothermal and other green technologies. Could my noble friend explain whether, if there is a significant risk of introducing microbial pollution, no permit would actually be issued in that regard, whether it is close to a sensitive habitat or not? That is just to understand what the purposes of the permitting are. I understand, in the second paragraph of 7.18, that it does look as though this is going to become a regulated activity, so I would just like to understand entirely what the remit of the department in relation to the regulations would be.
On paragraph 7.22, and an unauthorised illegal third-party discharge into a sewer network, could my noble friend highlight specifically what activity is in play there? Obviously, there is a situation where there is a heavy rainfall and sewage can flow on to a highway and then into someone’s house. I understand that highways authorities currently have no responsibility for any sewage overflow, or do not contribute in any way to reducing flood risk in this regard. Is that a loophole, if you like, that the Government would like to close? Obviously, it is unfortunate at the moment that there are not sufficient sustainable drains in place and that there is no end to the automatic right to connect, which may mean that sewage flowing as wastewater from a four- or five-bedroomed house which has been given planning permission can come into a combined sewer and unfortunately spill into houses, either directly into an existing development, or off a highway. So there does seem to be this loophole that highways authorities are not covered. Is that what my noble friend means by an unauthorised illegal third-party discharge? I am just trying to understand what paragraph 7.22 of the Explanatory Memorandum would cover.
With those few remarks, I otherwise welcome the regulations before us this afternoon.
Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville (LD)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his introductory remarks to this SI. The Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee looked at this instrument in April and raised concerns about groundwater quality and sub-surface energy proposals. As a result, Defra revised the Explanatory Memorandum. Those amendments helped to clarify the instrument, but I have some comments and questions.
As the EM states, groundwater “plays a vital role” for food manufacturing, brewing, wetland ecosystems and the agriculture industry, to which the Minister referred in his opening remarks. The quality and purity of this water is vital to many of these, especially chalk streams, the protection of which was debated last week during the passage of the Levelling-up and Regeneration Bill. This instrument indicates that it will update and clarify the existing control measures within the EPR for protecting groundwater from site-based activities. Will this include the discharge of chicken slurry into the River Wye, for instance, or is this classified as not groundwater but surface water? Perhaps those are the same.
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)
My Lords, I have a heavy cold, so if I start sneezing I apologise in advance.
I thank the Minister for his overview of these regulations. His Majesty’s Opposition agree that the management and protection of our groundwater is vital for sensitive ecosystems and a range of key industries that have already been outlined, so we support these proposed changes to the regulatory framework. However, I have a few questions for the Minister following on from the debate held in the other place.
The environmental permitting regime came into force in 2010, and the amendments made by this SI are described as minor tweaks which
“provide a more proportionate, risk-based regulatory approach”.
Although the changes might be considered minor, and although we have no major objections, could the Minister outline when during the last 13 years various deficiencies referenced in paragraph 7.10 of the Explanatory Memorandum were identified and why it has taken so long for the revisions to be brought forward?
As highlighted by the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee’s comments on the SI focus in part on its potential implications for the use of technology such as hydraulic fracturing. Although Defra says that it is not currently aware of any proposals for low-volume, low-pressure fracturing in deep formations containing groundwater in the onshore oil and gas industry, can the Minister outline any specific stakeholder engagement on the issue and say how long it will be kept under review and reported on should the situation change?
In the House of Commons, the Minister, Rebecca Pow, committed to write in response to specific questions on sewerage undertakers’ liability for certain offences under the EPR. Does the Minister have a copy of that correspondence that could be read into the record? If not, is he able to provide a copy to participants?
Finally—without sneezing—this new suite of potential exemptions will require enhanced monitoring and enforcement arrangements. How confident is the Minister that the Environment Agency has the resources to oversee the additional workload, given that research published by Unchecked UK states that the EA has seen cuts equivalent to 25% of its staffing base and 63% of its funding since 2009?
Protection of our delicate ecosystems in the coming decades is a responsibility that falls on all of us, especially given the challenges posed by climate change, so it is vital that we get the regulatory framework correct and have the enforcement structures in place.
Lord Benyon (Con)
I am grateful to your Lordships for your important contributions to this debate and for what I sense is support for the amendments to the 2016 environmental permitting regulations. These amendments will optimise the regulatory tools available for managing and protecting groundwater quality. I am delighted that we are delivering on the Government’s commitment to ensuring that the quality of our groundwater resources is protected.
I will now address the points made. First, my noble friend Lady McIntosh and the noble Baroness, Lady Anderson, raised hydraulic fracking. The Government’s moratorium on high-volume, high-pressure hydraulic fracking for shale gas is very much still in place. Hydraulic fracturing is already permittable in some geological formations. The amendment will allow control through permitting of stimulation techniques including hydraulic fracturing in all formations that have the potential to release heat and energy, but only where it is demonstrated to be environmentally accessible. I make the point to my noble friend and all noble Lords that there is no change or diminution in protections; it just allows us to have a system that is more suitable to the problems with which we are dealing.
Treated sewage effluent discharges can contain high numbers of microorganisms, including harmful pathogens. Where such discharges occur very close to private drinking water supplies, the risk of potential harm to health increases. This amendment provides the ability for the regulator to apply proportionate, risk-based controls to prevent microbial pollution where the risk deems it necessary.
The existing environmental permitting regulations specify that a water company sewerage undertaker is not guilty of an offence relating to discharging sewage effluent under certain conditions, such as if a third party made an unauthorised discharge into the sewer, resulting in a discharge from the works breaching the permit conditions at that site. That is fair. However, the defence applies only to the offence of operating without a permit, not the offence of contravening permit conditions, which is more commonly the case.
This change is necessary because that situation creates uncertainty for water companies and enforcement difficulties for the Environment Agency. The amendments provide legal clarity for the Environment Agency to be able to take enforcement actions, including prosecutions, with more certainty of success, and do not reflect the previous legal position where the defence was open to both offences of operating without a permit and in breach of permit conditions.
On the point about chicken slurry in the River Wye, that is not classified as groundwater so these regulations do not apply in those circumstances. However, we are tackling that issue through a variety of different actions to protect that important river environment.
The noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, also asked what we are talking about here. An example would be a SSSI, which we have a vital duty to protect. We want to see 75% of them in good condition in just a few years’ time.
The noble Baroness asked about the definition of a mobile plant permit. It is a type of environmental permit used to regulate shorter-term, temporary activities which utilise equipment that is designed to move from site to site. Discharges into river are separate from discharges to groundwater; both need permits to discharge pollutants into the environment.
On the question of geothermal schemes, only proposed systems in sensitive groundwater locations will need a permit from the Environment Agency. This means that the use of this green energy technology is still an option in locations that cannot meet the exemption conditions, and any potential impact on groundwater quality can be controlled.
On the questions relating to the consultation, the public consultation was held from September to December 2021 to seek views on the nine amendments. The draft statutory instrument was published on 23 March 2023. As I said, there were 264 responses to the consultation. Overall, there was majority support for the consultation, except for the proposals to mitigate potential groundwater impacts from cemeteries, which showed clear opposition. I have some knowledge of this issue. When I was in the other place there was an application to create a green burial ground—the sort of land use which I think many of us would support; it is a type of burial that is particularly attractive to individuals and their families who want one which is perhaps more environmentally friendly. Some of the misunderstandings about the impact of that resulted in me, as the MP, receiving letters saying that body parts would be found floating down the river, and things like that. That is not the case. These burials are very much in keeping with the environment. They need licensing, as do any such schemes, and this will allow us to have better systems of protection.
The noble Baroness raised a point about garden burials; I may have to contact her with details. Due to the low intensity of the impact of such burials, I do not think that is important.
On the question of why this SI has been brought forward and why it has been delayed, I am absolutely happy to explain to the Committee that the current changes are a long-standing issue that has been delayed several times due to reprioritisation during EU exit and Covid. Improving the regulatory regime for groundwater is a priority for this work by reducing regulatory burdens and freeing business to grow and invest.
I will find out about the letter from my honourable friend Rebecca Pow. We are not sure where it is in the process, but I am certainly happy to share it with Members of the Committee.
In conclusion, I hope I have addressed the points raised by your Lordships and thank you again for your contribution. I commend the regulations to the Committee.
Energy Bills Discount Scheme Regulations 2023
(1 year, 6 months ago)
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Lord Callanan
That the Grand Committee do consider the Energy Bills Discount Scheme Regulations 2023.
Relevant document: 38th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee (special attention drawn to the instrument)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Energy Security and Net Zero (Lord Callanan) (Con)
My Lords, these regulations were laid before the House on 25 April this year, as were the Energy Bills Discount Scheme (Northern Ireland) Regulations 2023, the Energy Bills Discount Scheme Pass-through Requirement Regulations 2023, the Energy Bills Discount Scheme Pass-through Requirement (Heat Suppliers) Regulations 2023 and the Energy Bills Discount Scheme (Non-Standard Cases) Regulations 2023.
These instruments ensure that essential energy bill support continues to be provided to eligible UK businesses, charities and public sector organisations, following on from the energy bill relief scheme support, which ended on 31 March this year. Each of them is a replacement for an earlier set of regulations that implemented that original scheme. Together, they cover UK businesses that are supplied by both licensed gas and electricity suppliers and licence-exempt suppliers. They also ensure that any end user receiving energy that is supplied with the benefit of these schemes through an intermediary will get a “just and reasonable” share of that benefit. In the absence of an intervention of this kind, energy bill support would no longer be provided to non-domestic customers where they were exposed to the impact of high wholesale market prices.
The Energy Bills Discount Scheme Regulations for Great Britain, the Energy Bills Discount Scheme (Northern Ireland) Regulations, the Energy Bills Discount Scheme (Non-Standard Cases) Regulations, the Energy Bills Discount Scheme Pass-through Requirement Regulations and the Energy Bills Discount Scheme Pass-through Requirement (Heat Suppliers) Regulations, which I will refer to collectively as the “EBDS Regulations”, have been created under the Energy Prices Act, which the Committee will recall gained Royal Assent on 25 October last year.
The Energy Prices Act, introduced in Parliament on 12 October last year, provided the legislative footing needed to ensure that businesses across the UK receive support with their energy bills through the energy bills discount scheme. The EBDS regulations are essential secondary legislation needed to implement and operationalise the scheme. The purpose of the regulations is to provide a discount on the wholesale costs for electricity and gas supplied by licensed and non-licensed energy suppliers to eligible non-domestic customers, and to make payments to suppliers in respect of those reductions in Great Britain and Northern Ireland. To protect eligible non-domestic customers from excessively high energy bills, the EBDS will run for a 12-month period from 1 April this year to 31 March 2024.
I thank the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee for reviewing these regulations. We welcome the conclusion it reached and that it took some assurance regarding the effectiveness of the energy bills relief scheme pass-through requirements. I reaffirm that we will continue to monitor the effectiveness of the EBDS and that we expect to publish a report on both the Great Britain and Northern Ireland EBDS before the end of 2024, including the effectiveness of the pass-through requirements. We will continue to review our pass-through requirement communications strategy, including reviewing guidance on GOV.UK and offering engagement sessions to ensure that intermediaries understand their obligations and that customers receive the benefits that they are entitled to.
I turn to the details of the regulations. The EBDS regulations set out that, with few exceptions, all non-domestic customers with electricity and gas contracts from both licensed and licence-exempt non-domestic energy suppliers will be eligible for a discount when the wholesale element of their contract is above a certain level. Licence-exempt supply includes energy taken from the public electricity grid or received via wire or pipe.
The EBDS GB and EBDS Northern Ireland regulations provide for three elements to the scheme for end users of licensed suppliers. The EBDS (Non-standard Cases) regulations replicate this for end users of licence-exempt suppliers. First, there is a baseline per unit discount applicable to all eligible non-domestic customers’ energy bills throughout the scheme’s duration. The discount will be applied if wholesale prices are above a certain price threshold. Secondly, a higher rate of relief will be provided to those non-domestic customers that carry out a substantial part of their UK activities in certain energy and trade-intensive industry sectors—so-called ETIIs.
Thirdly, there is the support aimed at domestic customers on heat networks. There will be a specific higher EBDS rate for heat networks supplying domestic customers set at a level to ensure that these customers do not face disproportionately higher prices than other domestic customers receiving the energy price guarantee. The EBDS regulations set out the process by which the energy supplier is reimbursed by the Secretary of State for the discounts that it gives. The EBDS (Northern Ireland) Regulations prevent end users who are outside Northern Ireland receiving the discount to their bills.
Finally, the EBDS regulations set out essential operational matters, including information and reporting obligations, enforcement powers and powers to impose civil penalties in respect of missing or defective declarations. Customers who receive gas or electricity from non-licensed suppliers—non-standard cases—will be supported under agreements on standard scheme terms. Due to the complexity of some licence-exempt supply chains, the non-standard cases regulations provide the Secretary of State with powers to obtain information from those involved and imply some terms into the contracts to help the scheme work more smoothly. Additionally, the regulations allow for revised EBRS terms, which expand eligibility under EBRS to include the cohort of non-standard customers who receive their energy via private wire or pipe, at a price pegged to wholesale rates.
The EBDS Pass-through Requirement Regulations, EBDS Pass-through Requirement (Heat Suppliers) Regulations, and EBDS (Non-standard Cases) Regulations provide for certain intermediary businesses, often landlords, that receive a benefit under the scheme but in turn provide energy to others to pass a just and reasonable amount of the benefit that they receive on to their end users. The regulations set out obligations on the intermediary, including calculating the amount and providing end users with information about this, as well as passing on the benefit as soon as reasonably practicable. They also set out the dispute mechanisms available.
To accompany the regulations, we have published a suite of non-statutory guidance, which provides further detail on how the schemes work. The objectives of these regulations are to protect businesses and non-domestic customers against the volatility of the variable market and avoid firm closures and redundancies, particularly for ETIIs. They also ensure that domestic end users on qualifying heat networks are offered appropriate support.
In conclusion, the EBDS schemes will be a source of critical support for non-domestic customers in the UK, particularly those in energy-intensive sectors, many of which are essential national infrastructure. I emphasise that the measures in these regulations are crucial, because they bring the schemes into legal existence. The EBDS Great Britain, EBDS Northern Ireland and EBDS non-standard cases schemes complement the existing large-scale support that the Government are providing during the energy crisis.
I hope the Committee will support these measures and their objectives, and I commend the regulations to the Committee.
Lord Teverson (LD)
My Lords, that is quite a long introduction, and I thank the Minister for it. I have to admit to him that I was looking around at the pictures, and thinking that it was interesting that Moses managed to base Judaeo-Christian law on 10 paragraphs, whereas here we have about 100 pages on energy. We will perhaps move on to that.
I wanted, while not trying to be disingenuous, to actually congratulate the Government on something in these particular instruments. In the instrument on heat suppliers, no. 455, on page 12, in paragraph 1E(6)(c), we actually have the court being able to apply a fine of up to £5,000 in terms of enforcement, which is how I read it. I thought, “bingo”: there is actually a way in which, when we go through all these pass-through regulations, we could actually have something which might appear like a civil on-the-spot fine, which is a way to deter or provide some jeopardy if these pass-through arrangements are not adhered to. But needless to say, in instrument no. 463, we are back to the 2% on the outstanding amount. I am not asking the Minister to go through that again, but I genuinely believe that there was a sensible solution in terms of enforcement and that sort of approach, which could have been used in the other SIs.
On the energy and trade-intensive industries, one of the sectors that is not there is agriculture. I know that the Minister has a very good relationship with Defra, but I wondered whether he could perhaps take back again the fact that the horticulture sector—poultry, I understand, as well—is equally energy intensive, yet that primary industry sector has been left out. I realise, clearly, that this SI cannot be amended to do that, but I show my regret in this context that the agricultural industry has been left out of that. Perhaps the Minister would like to offer an explanation of why.
There is a cap here, which I am not necessarily against, of £5.5 billion. Is it on a first come, first served basis, or are the Government completely assured that that limit will not be hit?
Lastly, my only other question is whether the Northern Ireland situation has been sorted out with the European Union, in terms of approval, which I understand is in process.
Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)
I also add my thanks to the Minister for his fulsome explanation of the regulations before us today. I think we are on record as saying that we were disappointed with the delay at the beginning, but I think we can now say that it seems as though the mechanisms are up and running, and delivering for the people who desperately need this support provided.
I do not want to go over all of the points that have been covered and raised, but I have a couple of questions, particularly with reference to the Energy Bills Discount Scheme (Non-Standard Cases) Regulations. The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, raised the agricultural sector; that is one to consider. Could the Minister anticipate whether there will be other areas coming forward that are struggling and are not covered under this provision? As we know, this area is regarded as a relatively small part of the market. “Relatively” is a very broad definition, and I would like to know whether the Government actually know the precise size of this area as we go forward.
One area that we have raised on several occasions is the whole area of implications for vulnerable customers and the provision that is laid out for intermediaries to cover. We recognise that the Government are developing a guidance and communication strategy to ensure those intermediaries are aware of their obligations, and therefore pass on the support as required.
Lord Callanan (Con)
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, and the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, for their valuable contributions. I start by saying that the Government have implemented the EBDS to protect businesses and non-domestic consumers from the volatility of the market and, of course, to deliver critical energy bill support, while also taking account of the fact that wholesale prices are now well below previous levels seen during the peak of the energy crisis. The schemes have been designed to operate robustly and guard against fraud and gaming. We will continue to monitor the schemes to ensure that this support is provided to the people and businesses it is designed to help.
I will now respond to the questions raised by both noble Lords. As the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, pointed out, the regulations require that relevant intermediaries, including landlords, claim the benefit and pass it on to end-users. Intermediaries must take all such reasonable steps necessary to ensure that they are provided with the energy bills discount scheme benefit to which they are entitled, so that they may pass it on to their end-users.
We have taken a consistent approach to determine ETII eligibility. Organisations that operate primarily within an eligible sector will be eligible for the support. This means that about 50% of UK revenue generated in the relevant period must be from activity in an eligible sector. I am sorry to tell the noble Lord that the Government currently have no plans to review the eligibility criteria for the energy and trade intensive element of the EBDS. The Treasury-led review of the energy bill relief scheme took account of many contributions from the private sector, trade associations, the voluntary sector and other types of organisations, and the list is what we ended up with following that.
Finally, I can confirm to the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, that discussions with the European Commission are ongoing, and we hope to reach a conclusion on them soon.
The noble Baroness, Lady Blake, also raised the role of intermediaries and pass-through. As she said, we will continue to monitor the effectiveness of the pass-through regulations as well as our communications strategy for communicating to end-users. Detailed guidance has been produced on GOV.UK to help ensure that consumers and intermediaries, and those who advise them, are aware of the specifics of the scheme.
With regard to the noble Baroness’s point on non-standard cases, we have engaged with a range of stakeholders, and the extended eligibility announced on 1 April means that non-domestic customers on private wire networks are now supported. This includes businesses receiving energy from biomass and waste, to give two examples. The Government remain committed to ensuring that consumers continue to receive help with the rising cost of living, which at the moment includes energy bills. These regulations are vital in ensuring that support is delivered to non-domestic customers and, crucially, to domestic heat network consumers. I therefore commend them to the Committee.
Lord Teverson (LD)
On Northern Ireland, I am interested to understand whether the Commission is being difficult and finding objections or whether it is just a question of it taking the time that it takes.
Lord Callanan (Con)
The noble Lord will understand that I do not want to go any further at the moment. It is a sensitive area. We are engaging in discussions with the Commission and hope to reach a decision soon. I very much hope that it is not just being deliberately difficult but is seeking the necessary reassurances with regard to the state aid regulations.
Energy Bills Discount Scheme Pass-through Requirement Regulations 2023
(1 year, 6 months ago)
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Lord Callanan
That the Grand Committee do consider the Energy Bills Discount Scheme Pass-through Requirement Regulations 2023.
Relevant document: 38th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee (special attention drawn to the instrument)
Energy Bills Discount Scheme Pass-through Requirement (Heat Suppliers) Regulations 2023
(1 year, 6 months ago)
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Lord Callanan
That the Grand Committee do consider the Energy Bills Discount Scheme Pass-through Requirement (Heat Suppliers) Regulations 2023.
Relevant document: 38th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee (special attention drawn to the instrument)
Energy Bills Discount Scheme (Non-Standard Cases) Regulations 2023
(1 year, 6 months ago)
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Lord Callanan
That the Grand Committee do consider the Energy Bills Discount Scheme (Non-Standard Cases) Regulations 2023
Relevant document: 38th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee (special attention drawn to the instrument)
Energy Bills Discount Scheme (Northern Ireland) Regulations 2023
(1 year, 6 months ago)
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Lord Callanan
That the Grand Committee do consider the Energy Bills Discount Scheme (Northern Ireland) Regulations 2023.
Relevant document: 38th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee (special attention drawn to the instrument)
House of Lords
South West Rail Resilience Programme
(1 year, 6 months ago)
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Lord Berkeley
To ask His Majesty’s Government whether they intend to provide funding to ensure the timely completion of the works to protect the rail line at Dawlish from flooding, including Phase 5 of the South West Rail Resilience programme.
Lord Whitty (Lab)
My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Berkeley, and with his permission, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in his name on the Order Paper.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)
My Lords, I can confirm that Network Rail has delivered two phases of the south-west resilience programme, providing protection to the railway at Dawlish from coastal flooding. The third and fourth phases addressing cliff protection measures are in delivery, with a combined budget of £85 million. Network Rail is being funding to deliver a detailed proposal for the fifth and final phase, which addresses cliff protection for a mile-long stretch of the railway.
Lord Whitty (Lab)
My Lords, I am glad to see that Members are so keen to speak. I thank the Minister for her reply, but it does not really answer the Question—or it does so only partly—and it does not reflect the importance of this line to the already existing problems of transport links to west Devon and Cornwall. Can she reassure us that the vital fourth and fifth phases—she mentioned the fourth, but not the fifth—will indeed be fully funded by Network Rail and the department? Can she give us an estimated date of completion to restore full resilience to this vital link to the far south-west?
Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)
As I mentioned in my opening Answer, Network Rail is working on the fifth phase of the works in some detail; we need to establish detailed proposals for this mile-long stretch of the railway. Local consultations have happened, and there was some reluctance around some of the proposals put forward. Therefore, Network Rail is looking at the scope and costs of the fifth phase.
Lord Swire (Con)
My Lords, I apologise for being a bit too quick, which is more than you can say for any of the trains travelling to the south-west. In the south-west, we look and listen in envy to talk of chopping off bits of time on the cross-Pennine railway and others. That is not a luxury we have; we have only one railway beyond Exeter linking the whole south-west peninsula. If Dawlish goes down, we have no connectivity at all. While I very much welcome all the money and the moves the Government have made with the resilience surrounding Dawlish itself, until such time as we have a second railway bypassing or connecting Plymouth—either west of Dartmoor or in line with some of the other options—we can never be sure that we can keep the south-west connected 365 days a year.
Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)
I welcome my noble friend’s interest in this Question; I know that he raised this issue in the other place many times. I assure him that delays on the line as it currently stands are significantly down, from 53.6 minutes per 1,000 services in 2018-19 to just 36.1 minutes per 1,000 services in 2022-23, so it is important to note that the resilience of the line is improving. The department has looked at alternatives—additional routes through to the south-west that might provide additional resilience. However, we are focused on improving the resilience of the line as it currently stands. In proposals for restoring elements of railway that previously existed, the case was not set out sufficiently.
Baroness Randerson (LD)
My Lords, this example is one of many similar schemes. A few weeks ago I asked a Question about news reports that Network Rail’s future funding was so limited that we could expect that basic infrastructure may not be repaired. The Minister dismissed my inquiry, saying that you should
“never believe everything that you read in the newspaper”.—[Official Report, 26/4/23; col. 1214.]
Now we have sight of Network Rail’s own business case for the next five years. It warns that funding constraints mean that the condition of the rail infrastructure will deteriorate and there will be a decrease in reliability. Does the Minister think that I should not believe everything I read in an official Network Rail document?
Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)
I say, absolutely, that one should not believe everything one reads in the newspaper. It is the case that Network Rail has to work within its funding envelope for CP7, which goes from 2024 to 2029. We are investing a record £44.1 billion in our rail infrastructure—a 4% increase on CP6—so the Government are providing significant funding. As with many elements of the railways, it is important that Network Rail and others look at what funding they have and obtain efficiencies to ensure that the reliability of the railway is maintained.
Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)
My Lords, I looked at a recent exchange between my noble friend Lord Berkeley and the Minister on this subject. Essentially, he asked whether funding for phase 5 will be withheld and she gave the heroic non-answer that she has just repeated. Can we be absolutely clear where we are on funding? Will funding be available for phase 5? If not, does the Minister accept that building phases 1 and 4 and not phase 5 is a complete waste of money?
Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)
I do not accept the latter point. We have invested £165 million to date, and of course some of that was to ensure the resilience of the seawall itself. Other elements of that funding went into cliff protection measures. This final section of cliff protection measures is highly complicated and there has been some local reluctance around the plans that Network Rail originally put forward. That is why it has had to go back to the drawing board. At this stage we do not know the scope of the works or the costs, and therefore it is impossible to speak further about the funding.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)
My Lords, the Minister refers to keeping within the funding envelope. Is there any connection between the Government’s determination to cut taxes before the next election and the refusal to provide additional long-term funding for long-term investment? As a Government concerned with the national interest, should they not be more concerned with long-term investment than the short-term political advantage that a tax cut might provide before the next election?
Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)
The Government are always cognisant that we must provide value for money to the taxpayer. As I outlined in a previous answer, the amount of funding going into our railways is going up. We are very cognisant of the impact of that increased funding and the sorts of deliverables that we want to see out of it. I assure the noble Lord that the rail network enhancements pipeline, or RNEP, will include some of those enhancements and will be published soon.
Baroness Watkins of Tavistock (CB)
My Lords, does the Minister accept that if we do not proceed with the fifth part of this protection, we should look again at the west Devon line going via Tavistock, because we could be left with absolutely nothing again?
Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)
I do not accept that those two issues are necessarily linked. It is very important that we have resilience on the existing line, which has been in place for many years. That is why we are very focused on improving its resilience and have invested heavily in it. As I said previously, we looked at some proposals. For example, in round 3 of the Restoring Your Railway project, Devon County Council produced a strategic outline business case for reopening the line from Bere Alston to Tavistock. There was also a proposal to open the line from Tavistock to Okehampton. Neither of those was really viable enough to take forward.
Lord Lexden (Con)
My Lords, what are the effects of the difficulties in the rail links on tourism to the particularly beautiful part of our country to which this Question referred?
Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)
As I noted earlier, the delays on this line have actually reduced; it is quite a reliable line, and the train operating company is very effective. I encourage all tourists to get on the railways and visit the south-west.
Baroness Walmsley (LD)
My Lords, talking about delays, of the many reasons my Avanti West Coast train has been delayed—it was 40 minutes this morning—points failures and signal failures are high on the list. Does this not indicate that the network is falling apart?
Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)
I do not accept that the network is falling apart. In whichever country one is in the world, there are occasional technical issues that cause trains to be delayed. The Government are investing £44.1 billion in the next control period. That will ensure that our railways are fit for the future.
HGVs: Charging and Refuelling
(1 year, 6 months ago)
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Baroness Randerson
To ask His Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to encourage and develop a network of public charging and refuelling sites for zero-emission HGVs, and what policies are they adopting to encourage and facilitate the development of charging and refuelling infrastructure at commercial HGV depots.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)
My Lords, the Government recognise that charging and refuelling sites required to support zero-emission HGV uptake will need to increase before 2040. Last year’s future of freight plan committed to convening industry stakeholders to develop a plan for rollout, which is happening through our Freight Energy Forum. Extensive stakeholder engagement will begin later this year.
Baroness Randerson (LD)
My Lords, it is accepted that a very large number of electric vehicle charging points, particularly ultra-fast ones, will be required in the near future, and that those will mainly be needed in depots. However, the National Grid is giving applicants for extra grid capacity completion dates and access dates that are well into the 2030s. What are the Government doing to ensure there is sufficiently large grid capacity throughout the UK to enable this logistics revolution to proceed apace?
Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)
The Government are taking a two-phased approach to this, and those phases are happening concurrently. The first is that we need to discuss with industry stakeholders exactly how they feel the strategy for the rollout of zero-emission vehicles will go, particularly at the heavy end. That is why we will publish the zero-emission HGV infrastructure strategy later this year, once we have been able to discuss it with those stakeholders. The Government are confident that the grid can cope with the increased demand, and the next step is to ensure that depots can connect to it. We are working with the DNOs to find the most cost-effective solution to that.
Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)
My Lords, can we pause and reflect for a moment on the implications of this situation? As has already been suggested, would not a fleet of HGVs all topping up with electricity add a colossal load to our electricity supply and transmission system, even to the point, some say, that the existing cables could melt, causing local outages? Where is this enormous extra volume of electricity going to come from and where is the investment to generate it; and where is the investment for the National Grid transformation required to get any of this to work?
Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)
My noble friend raises a very important point. That is why, as part of the decarbonisation of HGVs, the Government are investing £200 million in the zero-emission road freight demonstrator programme, which will look at all the different technologies available. For some vehicles, battery electric will be the best option, but for others we expect hydrogen fuel cells to be far more relevant. Therefore, we need the zero-emission HGV infrastructure strategy, which will examine what a network of green hydrogen sites would look like, as well as the impact on the grid and where on it the additional electricity will be needed.
Lord Lansley (Con)
My Lords, a number of HGV fleet operators I have talked to in Cambridgeshire just want decisions to be made and a strategy to be progressed. Many of them think that hydrogen fuel cells will be the best technology for large HGVs, but there is no infrastructure for that, and they are looking for support for infrastructure well before the date on which they have to stop buying new diesel trucks.
Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)
I accept it is most likely that a hydrogen refuelling infrastructure will be needed. That is exactly why the Government are taking time, over the next six months or so, working with the stakeholders who sit on the Freight Energy Forum to establish exactly what that might look like. We need to set the strategic direction to ensure that the infrastructure is in place for 2040, but we also need to look at the evidence that will come from the zero-emission road freight demonstrator programme so that it can feed into that strategy.
Lord Hannan of Kingsclere (Con)
My Lords, I am encouraged by my noble friend the Minister’s reply to my noble friend Lord Lansley. It takes up to 10 hours for an HGV to plug in and recharge from one of these stations. More to the point, China controls 75% of battery production, but hydrogen is a race we are well placed to win. What plans does my noble friend have to work with producers of HGVs—not only fuel rod producers but producers of internal combustion engines that run on hydrogen—to achieve a workable rollout which will cover our transport networks?
Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)
My noble friend is right that working with stakeholders is key. The Government cannot solve the industry’s issues in this regard by centralising the decision-making for them, and it will be up to the stakeholders to decide what sort of vehicles they believe will be taken forward. I believe it will be a combination of battery electric and hydrogen fuel cells, and that is why the infrastructure strategy we are working on is so important. My noble friend mentioned hydrogen internal combustion engines. We believe that they are not zero-emission engines as they produce trace carbon dioxide and NOx. They also have very low energy efficiency in real-world applications, at about 25%, compared to 90% for battery electric and about 60% for hydrogen fuel cells.
Baroness Walmsley (LD)
My Lords, will the Government ensure that there are sufficient dedicated recharging facilities available for commercial vehicles so that large and small commercial vans are deterred from using the often scarce recharging facilities for private cars available at motorway services?
Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)
The Government are working at pace on electric vehicle chargers, for both commercial and private use. We are focusing on Project Rapid and the rapid charging fund, which looks at long-distance journeys. The second area is local electric vehicle infrastructure, including on-road charging in local areas, which can be used by commercial vehicles as well.
Baroness Hayman (CB)
My Lords, I declare my interests as set out in the register. The problems with the grid and the urgent need for both investment in and strategic planning for the grid emerge as more and more of an issue. That is one of the reasons why this House supported an amendment to the Energy Bill, to give Ofgem an objective to contribute to the achievement of net zero. Would the Minister be kind enough to talk to her colleagues and make sure that the Government do not try to reverse that amendment in another place?
Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)
I will certainly ensure that my colleagues are aware of the noble Baroness’s interest. The price controls being used by Ofgem are very helpful in encouraging investment. There is new, agile regulation called the net zero reopener, which allows network operators to apply for additional funding for zero-emission projects.
Lord West of Spithead (Lab)
The noble Lord, Lord Howell, is absolutely right about the exponential increase in demand for electrical power. Does the Minister agree that the only way we can really achieve this and have the right amount of baseload power is through the use of nuclear? We really must put all our weight behind producing nuclear power, developing SMRs and getting it available; otherwise, there is no way we will meet this requirement.
Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)
My colleagues at DESNZ, as I believe it is called nowadays, will be cognisant of our need to produce a significant amount of renewable electricity in future, and I hope that nuclear is part of that.
Baroness Deech (CB)
Does the Minister see a connection between the previous Question and this one, and will she acknowledge that public transport in this country is in a dire condition? I drive electric. There is still nowhere to charge up here; one dare not go on a long journey because there is nowhere to charge. The train between Didcot and Oxford has been out of action for months. The main road from the west of Oxford to the station is being closed for 12 months. We are virtually prisoners in our own home. I dread to think what this is doing for the tourist trade and business generally, but nobody seems to care.
Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)
I am very sorry to hear that the noble Baroness has experienced those issues in her local area; they are certainly not replicated across the country. She may be talking about the Nuneham viaduct, where there has been some subsidence. It closed on 3 April. We understand the frustration, but we are working very closely with GWR, CrossCountry, Chiltern and Network Rail to ensure that we get passengers moving. Engineers are working on the project, and we hope to have good news for the noble Baroness soon.
Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)
My Lords, I think the noble Baroness said that the grid said it was confident it could meet the challenges of HGV electrical supply. The problem is extremely sophisticated: it is likely to be grouped in hubs and there is likely to be very high demand. Electrical systems are basically rather fragile, and this needs a very sophisticated approach. Is the National Grid part of the Freight Energy Forum, and if not, why not?
Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)
The Freight Energy Forum feeds into the Department for Transport and, indeed, across government. While I accept that HGV depots will have significantly high demand for renewable electricity, other areas, particularly hard-to-abate sectors, will need much more. We are confident that with continued investment in the grid, we will be able to meet the needs of all the elements that need to be decarbonised, and that will uptick their electricity usage. As I mentioned previously, we have done that with a range of price controls, but also strategic planning for the future.
Land Use Commission
(1 year, 6 months ago)
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Lord Roborough
To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the report of the Land Use in England Committee’s recommendation to establish a Land Use Commission to help landowners and managers make the most appropriate decisions for their land.
The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Benyon) (Con)
My Lords, I declare my farming interest as set out in the register. We welcome the committee’s report and agree with many of its findings. The land use framework programme led by Defra is aligning thinking on land use across departments. We have yet to be convinced of the value of a commission.
Lord Roborough (Con)
I thank my noble friend for his Answer and refer to my interest as a landowner, as set out in the register. The Royal Society recently highlighted that government policies could require up to one-third of England’s land to be repurposed by 2050. England is a densely populated nation with multiple overlapping stakeholders on every acre of our country. That makes change in land use complex, time-consuming, expensive and risky for the land manager. How else can the Government help to streamline this process and highlight the optimal uses of different types of land to those who manage it?
Lord Benyon (Con)
My noble friend raises really important points. In its Multifunctional Landscapes report, published this year, the Royal Society referred to the UK rather than England; of course, we have to operate within the system that we have. It bases its assumptions about the total areas required by government targets on figures that it describes in the report as “illustrative”. However, we do not want to prescribe particular uses to landowners or land managers from a national level. We would rather make sure that they have the information and guidance they require to make efficient decisions based on local knowledge. I give the example of local nature recovery strategies, which help to steer nature restoration projects to the areas where they can be most beneficial.
Lord Cameron of Dillington (CB)
My Lords, in devising a continuous renewal of their land use strategy, how will the Government recruit and accommodate the necessary expertise in areas such as energy, leisure and housing—to take a few—which are outside Defra’s normal remit? How will they arrange for interdepartmental co-operation or even an interdepartmental commission or committee?
Lord Benyon (Con)
I compliment the noble Lord on his leadership of the committee that produced this excellent report. We are involved in discussions right across government, including with the Department for Energy Security and Net Zero, the Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities, and the Department for Science, Innovation and Technology. The noble Lord’s crucial point about skills and expertise is completely understood. In line with the recommendations on skills from the Independent Review of Net Zero, the renewables industry is working with the Green Jobs Delivery Group to develop net-zero skills and a workforce action plan. We are definitely considering the necessary skills and expertise as we prepare the land use framework.
The Lord Bishop of Chelmsford
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his responses so far. Can he clarify whether the Government will encourage Defra to give regard to land tenure and, in particular, to ensuring that the tenanted sector is considered within the land use framework?
Lord Benyon (Con)
The right reverend Prelate raises a crucial point. We talk about farmers and land managers, but those descriptions are too simple and generic, because we have owner-occupiers, registered tenants under the 1986 Act, graziers and farm business tenancies; it is an incredibly complex system of tenure. We are considering the Rock report and will respond to it.
Of course, the Church is a very big landowner. We want to make sure that it works alongside a great many other landowners, both large and small, to tackle these important issues, including feeding the population; tackling net zero; reversing declines in species; building homes; and providing space for people—all on a single piece of real estate. This is a complicated process, but it is one that we are determined to tackle.
Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville (LD)
My Lords, as a member of the land use committee, I know just how many detailed evidence sessions and discussion there were on the proposals for a land use commission. As the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, indicated, the proposed commission is to cover all aspects of land use and more than one government department, not just Defra. However, there has been no indication of when this report will be allocated time for a debate in this Chamber. Can the Minister please put in a good word for it to be expedited before the Summer Recess?
Lord Benyon (Con)
I would love to spend hours talking about this issue; it is one of endless fascination. I have the zeal of the convert on this because I was always sceptical about what I felt was a very top-down process but, having read the report, I now see the need for it. That is why we are tackling the issue in a meaningful way right across government; if we can find time for a debate on the report, I am certain that I will be dragged in to give the Government’s view.
Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)
My Lords, as we have heard, there are many pressures on land: housing; food production; tackling biodiversity; and climate change. Clearly, the recommendation to set up a land use commission to oversee progress on this is the best solution. Are the Government going to take that recommendation forward and set up a commission? If not, how does the Minister envisage not just being in discussion with departments but delivering on this issue across government so that we get the land use we need for the future?
Lord Benyon (Con)
My concern about a commission is that it would probably have to be a creature of statute. That would take time. We would have to have consultations and pass legislation, and another factor is the cost, which the report said should be similar to that of the Scottish Land Commission, at £1.5 million, and the Climate Change Committee, which is about £4.5 million. The most important thing is that Ministers want to drive and be held to account in both Houses on this very important piece of work. We are yet to be convinced about parking it with a commission, but I am happy to have further conversations with Members of this House to get to the bottom of that.
Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)
My Lords, my noble friend the Minister mentioned tenant farmers and graziers. When will the extent to which they will benefit from ELMS become clearer?
Lord Benyon (Con)
They are already benefiting from ELMS. We are working hard to ensure that they can benefit from not just the sustainable farming incentive but all the other parts of the schemes that we are bringing forward. Areas of countryside stewardship have always been a problem with landlord and tenant. We are trying to iron those things out and ensure that we are providing a future of support for all parts of the farming sector.
Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)
My Lords, to what extent does the Minister see a connection between this problem and the dearth of people going into agriculture as a job, compounded by the problem that those people find, especially in less favoured areas, in getting housing at an affordable price?
Lord Benyon (Con)
The noble Lord identifies a strange social phenomenon which is going on, where people who can afford to live in villages are driving into towns to commute or work there, and they are passing people who cannot afford to live in the villages but who work on the farms or in the countryside around them. We have a very clear, determined policy to extend the exception site housing scheme and support local authorities, parish councils and those communities which want to grow organically. Providing affordable housing in rural areas is key.
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)
My Lords, does the Minister agree that there are some existing land uses that are simply too environmentally destructive, too carbon emitting, and have too little benefit for human and non-human animals, and that this needs to be addressed? Is that something the land use commission could address, or will the Government address it in other ways?
Lord Benyon (Con)
I am not entirely sure what the noble Baroness is talking about; she might have given me some examples. It is important that a land use framework gives land managers the ability to plan into the future, knowing what is predisposed from the land, where it is best to plant trees, where we will concentrate our desperate economic and environmental imperative of reversing the declines in species, and where we will produce food. We will have a real attempt at giving land managers the understanding they need to take their businesses forward in this new and changing world.
The Earl of Caithness (Con)
My Lords, we welcome Defra’s appreciation of the need for land use. It has taken some years in getting there, but it appears that no other department is as keen as Defra to do this. Can my noble friend tell us a bit more about his discussions with the other departments and whether they are looking constructively at this matter?
Lord Benyon (Con)
We are having very good discussions across government. You cannot have a land use framework that does not address planning—I know that we will be talking about planning later today and into the night. You cannot have this conversation without talking to that department, for example, and you cannot have net zero without talking about trees. There is an absolute link-up. I reassure my noble friend that we are very serious about our conversations across government.
Former Chief Constables: Gross Misconduct
(1 year, 6 months ago)
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Lord Lexden
To ask His Majesty’s Government how many former chief constables are awaiting police gross misconduct hearings.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Sharpe of Epsom) (Con)
My Lords, since 2020-21, the Home Office has substantially increased the data that it collects and publishes on police misconduct as part of the police misconduct in England and Wales statistical bulletin. It is working closely with the sector to improve the overall quality and consistency of the data that it collects. This does not include cases which have been referred to misconduct proceedings where those proceedings have not concluded.
Lord Lexden (Con)
My Lords, how can it possibly be right for former Chief Constable Mike Veale to have been able to dodge a gross misconduct inquiry in Cleveland for almost two years, while tarnished officers of lesser rank have been brought to account? May I remind the House that arrangements for the Veale hearing in Cleveland were the sole responsibility of a legally qualified chair, whose name is unknown, even though the law does not permit this individual to remain anonymous. What does that say about public accountability of the police in Cleveland? Finally, when I met my noble friend the Minister and Mr Chris Philp, the Policing Minister, recently—I thank them for that meeting—I made it clear that, unless the mysterious chair has now fixed a date for the start of the hearing, I would call on the Government today to use their reserve powers under Sections 79 and 91 of the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Act 2011 to end the impasse. Is it not time that this matter was finally resolved?
Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)
My Lords, the law is not being flouted. Arrangements for the misconduct hearing of the former Cleveland chief constable Mike Veale are a matter for the Cleveland PCC and not the Government. Any questions regarding who has been appointed as the independent, legally qualified chair would need to be directed to the PCC accordingly. As noble Lords will expect me to say, I will not comment further on that particular case. However, in answer to the second part of my noble friend’s question, I can say that operational policing is, as he knows, not a Home Office matter—it is for chief constables—but he is correct that the Home Secretary has powers under the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Act 2011 to ensure an efficient and effective policing system that protects public safety. That includes the power under Sections 40 and 40A of the Police Act 1996. However, these are for use only when either the police force or the local policing body itself is failing or will fail to discharge its functions in an effective manner. They are very much a last resort, and we do not believe that the current situation in Cleveland requires these powers to be used, as the PCC has appointed an LQC to the panel for Mr Veale’s misconduct hearing.
Lord Bach (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for the meeting he arranged, but will he please guarantee that the Home Office will never again stand idly by in a situation where a police and crime commissioner, in this case Leicestershire’s, employs as it chief adviser, and then as its chief executive, a twice-disgraced ex-chief constable facing an allegation of gross misconduct—all with substantial public money? Do the Government understand how offensive this is, both to the police force in question and to the general public?
Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)
The noble Lord makes a very good point. As he knows, in the case he describes, the usual and correct procedure was not followed in that county. I am very pleased it has finally been followed, so I agree with him.
Lord German (LD)
My Lords, this House owes a debt of recognition to the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, for his perseverance in this matter. Of course, there are obviously serious matters relating to the relationship between police officers and the law. I wonder if the Minister would care to comment on the words of the chief constable of the BTP, the transport police, who says:
“If I was to commit a crime, get arrested and give my details, there is no obvious system check that would flag that I’m a police officer if I didn’t choose to tell them”.
Does the Minister think that is an issue? If it is a problem, what are the Government doing to solve it?
Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)
I join the noble Lord in praising my noble friend’s commendable tenacity on this subject. Regarding the circumstances the noble Lord describes, I was not aware of them. Of course, he will also be aware that we have launched a review, which concludes this month, into the whole misconduct and dismissals process. With a bit of luck, it will report back in the next month or two, according to the Policing Minister in the other place. It will include a number of these issues, and I hope that will be dealt with then.
Lord Cormack (Con)
My Lords, if there were a gold medal for stonewalling, my noble friend would deserve to win it. The answers that he gives are obfuscatory and reveal nothing. Will he please consider again the questions asked by both my noble friend Lord Lexden and the noble Lord, Lord Bach? Will he also reflect on the point that came up during the debate we had in the Moses Room a week or two ago? I suggested to him, and he completely ignored the suggestion, that we should have a police ombudsman in this country: somebody who can exercise the sort of authority—dispassionate and impartial—exercised by the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, in Northern Ireland.
Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)
I thank my noble friend for his praise, which is very welcome. I remember that debate in Grand Committee and I am afraid I did not ignore his suggestion; I dismissed it. In fact, a number of bodies oversee policing, including the College of Policing, the IOPC, HMICFRS and a variety of other alphabet-soup organisations.
The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, is contributing remotely.
Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab) [V]
My Lords, why can we not have anonymity in accusations of sexual offences, particularly rape? They are a special category of criminal offence where the reputations of the innocent can be destroyed, even by chief constables like Mike Veale. The law is unfair, and I have raised this issue repeatedly over the years. I too congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, on his unrelenting campaigning on this issue; the House is deeply indebted to him.
Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)
Obviously that strays well outside the remit of this Question and the department, but I will make sure that the noble Lord’s reflections are taken back to the appropriate people.
Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)
I will follow on from the good idea of the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, about having a police ombudsman. In their original Answer to this, the Government rather washed their hands of the whole issue of police and crime commissioners, which did not seem appropriate, as this Government set them up and put in the rules, parameters and laws—rather poorly, I think, but they did so. It is therefore wrong to throw away all feelings of guilt after things have gone wrong.
Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)
My Lords, as the noble Baroness is aware, we have conducted a two-part review of PCCs. The second part is due to be enacted soon.
Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)
My Lords, behind all this is the question of Operation Conifer, in which the reputation of a former Prime Minister and statesman was deeply and horribly smeared by the lies of a convicted paedophile, whose views were described by the police as “credible”. Given the obvious misdemeanours, mistakes and mishandling of the whole case, operations within the police seem to have been incredibly slow. The noble Lord, Lord Lexden, has asked endless questions over the years and this issue has never been brought to a head. Is it therefore not time for the Government, while not interfering with police operations in detail, to endorse and set up a completely independent inquiry to bring this appalling libelling and slandering of a now-deceased Prime Minister to an end? It is totally out of accord with the normal standards of justice and fairness in this country.
Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)
Many noble Lords have raised similar, very good points in recent debates. I shared this opinion with my noble friend Lord Lexden when we met last week. Having said that, there have been four inquiries into this case and all concluded that there was nothing more to do. However, I heard my noble friend Lord Howell’s concerns and will reflect them back to the department.
Lord Coaker (Lab)
I join other noble Lords in congratulating the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, and my noble friend Lord Bach, who have been campaigning on these issues for a considerable period of time. The Minister’s answers are simply not satisfactory. The noble Lord, Lord Lexden, has raised time and again the misconduct of Mike Veale, the former chief constable. The Minister simply comes back with a list of regulations, sends up smoke and does not answer the question. This is a really serious matter that deserves the highest priority from the Government, but we are not getting it. When will the Minister give us the answers that the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, is demanding?
Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)
I hope very soon. The noble Lord is also aware that there are a large number of things that I absolutely cannot say—a point I have reinforced from the Dispatch Box on a number of occasions. That will remain the case until this is concluded.
Public Service Vehicles (Accessible Information) Regulations 2023
(1 year, 6 months ago)
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Baroness Vere of Norbiton
That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 30 March be approved. Considered in Grand Committee on 16 May.
Insider Dealing (Securities and Regulated Markets) Order 2023
(1 year, 6 months ago)
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Baroness Penn
That the draft Order laid before the House on 17 April be approved. Considered in Grand Committee on 16 May.
Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill
Monday 22nd May 2023
(1 year, 6 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Act 2023 View all Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Act 2023 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: HL Bill 139-I Marshalled list for Third Reading - (19 May 2023)
The Lord Privy Seal (Lord True)
My Lords, I have it in command from His Majesty the King to acquaint the House that His Majesty, having been informed of the purport of the Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill, has consented to place his interest, so far as it is affected by Bill, at the disposal of Parliament for the purposes of the Bill.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Energy Security and Net Zero (Lord Callanan) (Con)
My Lords, I am disappointed to inform the House that both the Scottish Parliament and the Senedd Cymru have voted to withhold consent for the REUL Bill.
Lord Callanan (Con)
I am sure we are all shocked to hear that. We acknowledge the concerns of both Parliaments regarding the Bill and the potential impacts on devolved areas. However, it is right and constitutionally appropriate that the REUL Bill applies UK-wide. This will ensure that the benefits of Brexit can be realised by citizens and businesses throughout the whole United Kingdom. The Government therefore intend to proceed with the Bill without their consent. As noble Lords will be aware, the ongoing absence of the Northern Ireland Executive and the Assembly means that it has not been possible to seek legislative consent from the Northern Ireland Assembly on this Bill.
I reassure the House that it was never our intention to proceed with the Bill without consent in place. Our preference would have been to secure legislative consent Motions from the devolved legislatures. The Government have sought to engage proactively with the devolved Administrations on the REUL Bill since March last year. We have listened to their concerns and sought to make meaningful changes to the Bill in response. This includes the amendment to the sunset and the conferral of the powers to make consequential and transitional, transitory and savings provisions to the devolved authorities and devolved Ministers.
The decisions of the Scottish Parliament and the Senedd, while regrettable, will never mark the end of our engagement with the devolved Administrations on retained EU law. We remain committed to supporting sustained engagement with them on the REUL Bill and the REUL reform programme going forward.
Amendment 1
Baroness Noakes
“Retained EU law dashboard and report(1) The Secretary of State must within the period of 30 days beginning with the day after the end of each reporting period—(a) update the retained EU law dashboard;(b) publish and lay before Parliament a report on the revocation and reform of retained EU law.(2) The report must—(a) provide a summary of the data on the retained EU law dashboard (as updated under subsection (1)(a));(b) set out the progress that has been made in revoking and reforming retained EU law during the reporting period to which the report relates;(c) set out His Majesty’s Government’s plans to revoke and reform retained EU law in subsequent reporting periods.(3) The reporting periods are—(a) the period beginning with the day on which this Act is passed and ending with 23 December 2023; (b) the period of 12 months beginning with 24 December 2023;(c) the period of 12 months beginning with 24 December 2024;(d) the period of 6 months beginning with 24 December 2025.(4) If the Secretary of State does not meet the requirements in subsection (1) in relation to a reporting period, the Secretary of State must—(a) explain why in a statement made in writing, and(b) publish the statement and lay it before Parliament.(5) In this section—“retained EU law dashboard” means the database on retained EU law maintained and made publicly available by the Secretary of State;“revoke” has the same meaning as in section 14.(6) In subsection (2), “reform” includes “replace”.(7) In relation to the report under subsection (1)(b) in respect of the period ending with 23 June 2026, ignore subsection (2)(c).”Member's explanatory statement
This new Clause requires the Secretary of State to update the retained EU law dashboard and report on the revocation and reform of retained EU law in periods up to 23 June 2026.
Baroness Noakes (Con)
My Lords, Amendment 1 introduces a new clause after Clause 17. Amendments 2 and 3 in this group are consequential.
I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Callanan for adding his name to the amendments and I am even more grateful to my noble friend’s officials, who have produced these amendments at great speed in response to the less elegant amendment which I moved on Report last week. It is a great privilege to be given the opportunity to table these amendments in my name.
The underlying concept behind these amendments is transparency about the progress that the Government are making in dealing with retained EU law. This Bill now revokes only a portion of that law, but it will remain an important task for the Government to decide what to do with the rest of the laws on our statute book and ensure that they support the needs of the UK economy and our citizens. It represents a once in a generation opportunity to achieve significant regulatory reform.
Amendment 1 builds on the retained EU law dashboard, which pulls together all retained EU law and shows progress in reforming that law. While some have criticised the dashboard because the number of items of retained EU law continues to increase, the core information that it contains, including visual representation of progress, has been a great achievement. Subsection (1) of the proposed new clause places an obligation on the Secretary of State to update the dashboard. It also requires the Secretary of State to publish and lay before Parliament reports on the revocation and reform of EU law.
These reports will do three things: they will summarise the dashboard; they will set out progress that has been made in revoking and reforming retained EU law; and, importantly, they will set out the Government’s plans for revocation or reform. Information on the Government’s plans does not currently get reported in a comprehensive way, and so this should be a valuable data source both for parliamentarians and for those outside Parliament. The first report will be for the period up to 23 December this year, and there will be three more reports, the first two covering the years to 23 December 2024 and 23 December 2025 and a final one for the six months until 23 June 2026. The end date is, of course, the 10th anniversary of the great referendum vote and coincides with the final expiry of the powers in this Bill to reinstate or revoke EU law.
I know that noble Lords support effective accountability of the Executive to Parliament, and I believe that this new clause will improve Parliament’s ability to oversee how well the Government are delivering on their Brexit promises. I very much hope that by the time of the final report, 23 June 2026, if not earlier, the Government will have demonstrated that all retained EU law has been dealt with, whether by a positive decision to keep it intact or by revocation or reform. Last week the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, and the noble Lord, Lord Fox, were less than enthusiastic about my amendment on Report. It is perhaps wishful thinking to think that this new and improved version will result in a change of heart, but none the less I commend it to them. I beg to move.
Lord Hope of Craighead (CB)
My Lords, this amendment, which I fully understand, places a lot of emphasis on the capacity of the retained EU dashboard, but there are some important deficiencies in its capacity, the most important of which is that it does not contain any post-devolution legislation. That can be demonstrated by looking at the schedule that has just been introduced into the Bill. There is not a single item of post-devolution material on it.
When the Common Frameworks Scrutiny Committee, of which I am a member, invited some officials who work on the dashboard to address us and explain how it works, we asked them whether there was any post-devolution retained EU law on the dashboard. They told us that there was not, that devolution material was not there. We asked whether it was the intention that it should include post-devolution material and they said that it was not and that it was not designed to do that.
So there is a question I would like to ask, and I think it is fair to ask the Minister, about what the position truly is on this. I do not think he has ever fully acknowledged, at least in this Chamber, the fact that the dashboard does not contain post-devolution material at all. Is it intended that the dashboard should be updated, as is the obligation in the amendment, to include post-devolution material? If so, when will that be done and is it clear that the devolved Administrations are able to do that in time to meet the first deadline, which is the end of this year? They have a great deal to do already with the amount of work which is required of them by the Bill, and to have to work on updating the dashboard as well might be beyond their resources. This is a very important issue. I am not trying to undermine the amendment, but I want to understand its capacity to do what the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, told us it is intended to do.
Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)
I re-echo and endorse entirely the comments of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope. I also echo the regrets that the Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly have withheld their consent. Quite a broad area of retained EU law will remain by default on the statute books, which I welcome. However, following the comments of my right honourable friend the Environment Secretary over the weekend—particularly those relating to retained EU law and the wine sector—there remains a huge lack of clarity which, regrettably, the amendments in the name of my noble friend Lady Noakes and my noble friend the Minister do not address.
The fact that Defra will be able to revoke and amend large swathes of retained EU law—probably the bulk of outstanding retained EU law, as this relates to the Department of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs—poses great uncertainty for practitioners as well as the businesses that they are trying to advise. So I echo the question put by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, which I too have asked on a number of occasions, as to the up-to-dateness and comprehensiveness—particularly as regards devolved legislation—of the dashboard. Also, regarding the legal status of the dashboard, is it just a signpost or does it have greater significance than that?
I am sure that my noble friend will share my concern as a Minister in his department that there is, regrettably, a great lack of clarity for practitioners and business going forward as the Bill leaves the House today.
Lord Pannick (CB)
The noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, introduced Amendment 1 by saying that it is designed to promote transparency and accountability. Who could possibly disagree with those objectives? They are vital to this Bill. It seems to me that subsection (1) is modest in its requirements: the updating of the dashboard and the publication of a report. My question to the noble Baroness and, indeed, the Minister is: why, then, is it thought necessary to include in Amendment 1 subsection (4), which provides that:
“If the Secretary of State does not meet the requirements”—
that is the basic requirements—in subsection (1), then certain consequences follow?
It is, I would suggest, very unusual to include in an important provision of a Bill a set of obligations on Ministers but then recognise in another clause of the same provision that they may well not satisfy the important requirements that the noble Baroness rightly suggests should be imposed on them. Should we understand from this that the Minister contemplates that there is a real possibility that Ministers do not intend to comply with the very obligations that this amendment imposes? If they are going to comply with these obligations, surely we do not need subsection (4).
Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)
My Lords, I am afraid that a few amendments will not improve this Bill. It is a disastrous Bill, and not because of the laws that are being taken out this time—those few hundred do not seem significant. The big problem is the power grab by Ministers; that is really quite unnerving. I wonder what will happen when the Labour Party forms a Government. Will the Conservative Opposition go into trauma every time a Minister decides something?
When I voted for Brexit and taking back control, I did not mean taking back control for a small number of Ministers, who may or may not have their own ideas of what democracy is or what is appropriate for the people of Britain. The fact is that this is a bad Bill. It gives powers to Ministers that they ought never to have, and now, of course, it raises problems with the devolved authorities.
Lord Fox (LD)
My Lords, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, on persuading the Minister—though I am not sure how much persuasion was required—to incorporate the spirit of her amendment, and I congratulate the Minister on making it more elegant. The noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, has invited me to like it; I will do my best, but I do not think I will manage that.
The most interesting thing about the amendment, in my view, is not what happens to the list but what is on the list. The nature of the Bill has been turned on its head. At one point, being on the list was essential to try to avoid being revoked. Now, being on the list makes a law a target to be revoked. So we are in a world that has revolved 180 degrees; we have passed through the looking-glass.
I have two questions for the Minister, and I ask the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, to excuse me but I suspect it is the Minister who can answer them. First, to pick up on the point made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, which I was also going to make, is it the Minister’s understanding that no post-devolution legislation will now get put on to the list? We do not have legislative consent from the devolved authorities. They are apparently the authorities that would put post-devolution legislation on the list—if they had access to the database, although there is some question over whether they do. Can we assume that there will be no post-devolution legislation on the list?
Secondly, when will the list be fixed for these purposes? Is work still under way in all the departments of government in order to add new things to the dashboard, or is that it?
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, commented that we were rather less than enthusiastic when we discussed this issue last week. I can see why we have got to the position where this amendment has been agreed between the noble Baroness and the Government, and I am very happy for her that she feels satisfied with the movement that the Government have made in getting here. I am afraid that the concerns we have had throughout this process are a long way from being satisfied by the amendment. We do not oppose it particularly, but we are not particularly in favour of it. It does not really do all that much to the substance of what we have been disagreeing about during the passage of the Bill. However, if it helps with some internal political management on the government Benches, that is something that the Minister is entitled to attempt to do.
Lord Callanan (Con)
Well, my Lords, if the Opposition are not enthusiastic about my noble friend’s amendment, I am.
Before I address the amendment, I shall deal with some of the points that Members have raised. First, on the point made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, the noble Lord, Lord Fox, and my noble friend Lady McIntosh about post-devolution rule, that is rule for the devolved Administrations. The reality is that they have not wanted to add anything to the dashboard, and of course we are in no position—and do not wish to force them—to do so. If they wish to add some of their rule to the dashboard then they can, but for now it is just rule made by Her Majesty’s Government. It of course contains UK government legislation that has been made post devolution—just not the rule made by the devolved Administrations.
To answer my noble friend Lady McIntosh’s point, the dashboard has no legal status as such; it is just a list of retained EU law.
Moving on to the main points about my noble friend Lady Noakes’s amendment, the Government have already reformed or revoked over 1,000 pieces of retained EU law, but that is not the limit of our ambition. Departments will continue to review the rule that is not already revoked, reformed or planned for revocation this year in order to identify further opportunities for reform, and we are committed to reducing the burdens on businesses and unlocking the economic growth that will flow from that. As a down payment on our commitment to deliver meaningful reform, the 10 May policy paper Smarter Regulation to Grow the Economy set out our intention to reform regulations and remove burdens on businesses.
We announced changes that will reduce disproportionate EU-derived reporting requirements and could save businesses around £1billion a year. This will just be the first in a series of announcements that the Government will be making in the coming months on reforming regulation in order to drive growth. In addition to the revocation schedule, the powers in the Bill will still enable us to revoke, replace or reform any outdated EU laws that remain on our statute book right through until 2026. This new approach will provide the space for longer-term and more ambitious reforms and the Government intend to do just that. It will also mean that fewer statutory instruments will be required to preserve EU laws that are deemed appropriate or necessary to maintain.
The Brexit Opportunities Unit, spearheaded by the Secretary of State for Business and Trade, has been pivotal in driving the development and delivery of the Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill and the wider associated retained EU law reform programme. These efforts are being supported by specialist legal expertise from outside government. Parliament will be able to easily monitor government progress on REUL reform, as we update the dashboard every quarter. That answers the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Fox: we will continue to update the dashboard.
Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)
Did I understand the Minister correctly? Has he just boasted that there will be less parliamentary scrutiny and that we can look it up online?
Lord Callanan (Con)
You can look up progress online, but of course there will be parliamentary scrutiny. If we propose to make any changes to retained EU law using the powers in the Bill, they will come to Parliament in the normal process of the examination of secondary legislation.
The Brexit Opportunities Unit drove the aforementioned 10 May regulatory reform announcement, setting out a long-term plan to reform UK regulation over the coming months. Furthermore, we have committed to future announcements on how we will reform regulations to reduce the cost of living, deliver choice to consumers, establish trailblazing regulation to catalyse innovation and make the UK a science superpower, and remove obstacles to building world-class infrastructure.
However, it is crucial that Parliament and the public are able to hold the Government’s feet to the fire and ensure that our momentum continues with regard to the retained EU law reform programme. I am therefore delighted to support Amendments 1, 2 and 3, tabled by my noble friend Lady Noakes, to which I have added my name. These amendments insert a new clause into the Bill requiring the Secretary of State to update the retained EU law dashboard and to report on the revocation and reform of retained EU law in periods up to 23 June 2026, at which point, of course, the main powers in the Bill will sunset, and the vast majority of retained EU law reform will have been completed. The reports will summarise the REUL dashboard data, provide an update on whether and how REUL on the dashboard has been revoked and reformed, and detail future plans for further revocation and reform.
I thank in particular my noble friend Lady Noakes for her collegiate engagement in preparing the amendments that she has tabled today. I also extend my thanks to my noble friends Lord Frost, Lord Jackson and Lady Lawlor for their valuable engagement on this matter. These amendments will hold the Government to account in providing the additional transparency both Parliament and the public need to scrutinise the Government’s progress and future plans on retained EU law reform. I therefore hope the House will join me in supporting these amendments.
Lord Carlile of Berriew (CB)
I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. He has just told us that these amendments will hold Parliament to account. If Parliament is not satisfied with the account it is given under these amendments, what advice would he give to Parliament as to how Ministers can be prevented from carrying out what they have tried to do?
Lord Callanan (Con)
Well, they will hold the Government to account. Of course, Parliament is able to hold the Government to account in many different ways, but particularly, with the reform programme, there would be an extensive programme of statutory instruments. Parliament would be able to debate and accept those instruments or not, as it usually does.
Baroness Noakes (Con)
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate. I thank my noble friend Lord Callanan in particular for answering the points raised on devolution. I do not think he answered the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, on subsection (4), which is a useful addition because it means that if a report is not laid, we get another opportunity to be told that it has not been laid, and thereby to trigger any accountability mechanisms. I regard it as an important additional subsection, and I shall certainly be using it as a precedent in amendments to other Bills in future.
Baroness Noakes
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential upon Baroness Noakes’ new Clause.
Baroness Noakes
“(3A) In section (Retained EU law dashboard and report) (retained EU law dashboard and report), for “retained EU” (in each place it appears, including the heading) substitute “assimilated”.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential upon Baroness Noakes’ new Clause.
Lord Callanan (Con)
My Lords, this Bill is crucial in ensuring, as I said earlier, that we can seize the regulatory reform opportunities of Brexit. It is the next step in reasserting the sovereignty of Parliament and untangling the United Kingdom from nearly 50 years of EU membership. Through the Bill we will improve legal certainty, removing confusion from our statute book where EU principles of interpretation overlap with those of UK domestic principles. This fulfils an important constitutional objective: that our law is clear and accessible, so that citizens can understand it and regulate their conduct accordingly.
There is a long list of people whom I wish to thank for their help on the Bill. Let me start with my noble friend Lady Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist. Sadly, my noble friend is leaving the Front Bench and she will be missed by us all. My chances of getting to the Chamber on time are greatly reduced without the hurry-up texts from my noble friend Lady Bloomfield, who has kept me right many times in this Chamber and when we have debated statutory instruments in the Grand Committee. I am hugely grateful for all the help and support that she has given to me; I am sure other members of the Front Bench feel the same. She will be a great loss to the Government.
Let me also thank my noble friends Lady Neville-Rolfe and Lord Benyon, and my noble and learned friend Lord Bellamy, for their support during the Bill’s passage. I fear I would have continuously sat on this Bench for a great many days in addition to those when I did without their help and support, which has been greatly appreciated.
Let me also give my thanks to the Bill team. All the Bill teams I have worked with have worked extremely well and tirelessly, but I can tell the House that this Bill team in particular has gone above and beyond the call of duty. I said this when there were some frankly ill-considered remarks about the Civil Service while we were on Report, but many of them really did work all weekend to get the explainer out for the benefit of noble Lords when we were discussing the schedule. Their assistance has been great and their legal advice superb. If there were legal errors in anything that I said, I can assure noble Lords that it was not their fault. The fault was entirely mine, as they did a great job in trying to explain some of these complicated concepts.
I also thank members of the Opposition, including the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, my noble friend Lord Hodgson—who is of course not a member of the Opposition but is on our own Benches and played a big role in the Bill—and the noble Lord, Lord Fox, among many others who contributed to its passage. We did not always agree on many parts of it, of course; I apologise if, from my point of view, I sometimes expressed a little bit of irritation with some of the speeches that were made. Nevertheless, I do accept that it is the job of the House to scrutinise the Government, to look at our legislation closely and to propose amendments. If we could perhaps have a bit more constructive opposition sometimes, I would appreciate it.
Lord Callanan (Con)
Nevertheless, the contributions are appreciated.
The Government have of course sought to address the concerns raised, notably around the sunset and courts provisions. We listened to the points made in the House and addressed those concerns via the amendments that we brought forward on Report. I hope that the House recognises how significant a move this was from the Government and takes that movement in the spirit in which it was intended. We really did try to alter the Bill to take account of many of the concerns that were addressed.
The House has also made its views known on some other areas of the Bill on which the Government do not agree, including the reform and repeal powers we believe are crucial to the ambitions we have in this space. Our work in producing the retained EU law dashboard highlighted that there are many defunct laws on our statute book relating to activities that the UK does not conduct, such as my famous example of regulating reindeer herdsmen in Lapland. Now that we have taken back control of our statute book, it is appropriate to update it by amending, repealing or replacing REUL that is no longer fit for the UK.
I do not think there is much argument on all sides of the House about the list of measures we have produced that deserve to be repealed. This will allow us to create new pro-growth, high-standard regulatory frameworks that give businesses the opportunities and confidence to innovate, invest and ultimately to create jobs. This Bill delivers, in addition to providing clarity and certainty. It provides the powers for the Government to make legislative changes that will benefit all of us in the United Kingdom. With that, I beg to move that the Bill do now pass.
Lord Fox (LD)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his speech. His answer to the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, indicates why what I will call the Hope-Hamilton amendments are so important. I hope it is clear to the Minister that your Lordships’ House considers these to be very important and that they should be retained rather than reversed when they head to the other place.
Any Commons reversal of Amendment 48 will be seen as a show of intention by the Conservative Party on environmental legislation. Again, it would not be wise, given the very good reassurance we have had from the noble Lords, Lord Benyon and Lord Callanan, on retaining that legislation. Pushing out Amendment 48 would be moving things in the opposite direction.
Overall, the work of this House has achieved a major change and a U-turn. As I said before, it has achieved a reverse in the polarity of this Bill, and noble Lords should be very proud of that. It has been a fraught debate at times. I owe a mea culpa to the noble Baroness, Lady Fox. In the hubbub I misrepresented her use of the term “blob”, and I am happy to put the record straight—so apologies there. During that debate there was also a to and fro, which was very important. The Minister is right to say that that is the role of this House.
I thank the Ministers—the noble Baronesses, Lady Bloomfield and Lady Neville-Rolfe, and the noble Lords, Lord Benyon and Lord Bellamy—for their hard work in trying to bring us along; they have not often or always succeeded, of course. The Bill team, when we have met, have always been very helpful and courteous; they are a credit to their service. I hope that, for those of the team who want to visit the Cheshire salt mines, I have in some way helped them head that direction.
His Majesty’s Opposition have been a pleasure to work with: I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, the noble Lord, Lord Collins, and of course the team in their Whips’ Office. Many Cross-Benchers and other noble Lords across the House have participated fully. It would be difficult to mention them all, but for his virtuoso display during Report, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, deserves the full gratitude of your Lordships’ House.
Quite a few Liberal Democrats have participated in the Bill, not least those who were mobilised over the weekend to try to review 600 laws and work out what they did. I am not going to name them all, but I thank them for their support. I will name my noble friend Lady Ludford, who unfortunately cannot be here; she has been able company for me on the Front Bench. Finally, I thank Elizabeth Plummer in our Whips’ Office, whose grasp of this Bill has been beyond compare.
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
My Lords, we have never argued with the Government’s right to want to find a way to assimilate fully some EU-derived pieces of legislation and to revoke or restate others. We have never had cause to fall out over the Government’s stated aims, but the Bill has been the definition of using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. I am quite sure that Ministers regret having attempted to undertake this task in this particular way. I am also very sure that the Minister is glad to see the back of the Bill, having sat through hour upon hour of deliberation in this place.
The Bill was designed to appeal to a group of people with a certain perspective, and as we have said repeatedly—I say it again—that is not the right way to initiate legislation; the Government have learned that lesson very publicly. It is slightly surprising to hear the Government say that they wish the opposition to the Bill had been more constructive, given that we were pleased to see the Government accept the substance, if not the letter, of our amendment on the sunset, which we tabled at the beginning of Committee. The Government moved substantially on that issue; we recognise and welcome that, and we give them credit for it.
We thank all noble lords who have contributed to our deliberations on the Bill. The noble Lords, Lord Hamilton and Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, and, in particular, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, deserve our thanks and recognition for the work they have done to improve parliamentary scrutiny and oversight. These amendments are vital to the Bill, and I hope the Government welcome them and will support them in the other place. I do not believe that anyone thinks the new amendments tabled today are adequate responses to the concerns we have raised, so we hope that our concerns are protected as the Bill proceeds.
Having said that, I very much thank the Minister for his constant patience, charm and warmth across the Dispatch Box—it is never in doubt—and I look forward to many such exchanges in the future. I also acknowledge the sterling work the noble Baroness, Lady Bloomfield, has done throughout the passage of the Bill. I echo what the Minister said about wishing her well in the coming months; I hope she has a wonderful summer. We value very much the work she has undertaken on the Bill. I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, the noble Lord, Lord Benyon, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Bellamy, who were all corralled in as part of the support act on the Bill; they all did their best, did they not?
On these Benches, I especially thank my noble friend Lord Collins, who has been an absolute star; he has supported everything we have tried to do on these Benches throughout and has made some fantastic contributions. I also thank my noble friend Lady Hayman, who brought her experience and expertise on the environment to our deliberations; we have benefited hugely from her contributions.
I also thank the Opposition Bill team. Milton Brown, Tom Raines and Dan Stevens provided expert advice and have been extremely helpful in helping us prepare amendments. I thank both the Government Whips’ Office and my own Whips’ Office.
We are glad that the Bill leaves this place in slightly better shape than when it arrived. We hope the Government are able to receive in good grace the amendments we have made and will retain them, and that we do not need to consider the Bill further.
Levelling-up and Regeneration Bill
Monday 22nd May 2023
(1 year, 6 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Levelling-up and Regeneration Act 2023 View all Levelling-up and Regeneration Act 2023 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: HL Bill 84-XIV Fourteenth marshalled list for Committee - (18 May 2023)
Baroness Hayman of Ullock
“(2A) Designations under subsections (1) and (2) may only be made following consultation with the local community.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment would require designation of a high street or town centre to be consulted upon.
Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)
My Lords, before I start, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Fox, for all his work on the REUL Bill, on behalf of my noble friend Lady Chapman.
Welcome back to the levelling-up Bill. We have a large number of amendments in this first group today. They address vacant high street premises and provide us with an opportunity to consider how best we can address our declining high streets and town centres, so I beg your Lordships’ patience: there is quite a lot to say here. Recent data from the British Retail Consortium shows that shopping centre vacancies are running at nearly 19% and high street vacancies at around 14%. These are significant figures, and communities need the tools to improve the situation. There are clearly a number of reasons why this has been happening, and we cannot ignore the impact of online shopping. That was already a significant area of growth before the pandemic, which of course increased the amount of online shopping that people were doing. Vacant shops are also a symptom of a weak economy, and we have had slow economic growth for more than a decade.
That said, there are things we can do to get vacant shops into use and create the conditions for the growth of community enterprises, social enterprises and co-operatives, all of which are good business models and generally more resilient to global events; this certainly proved to be the case during the pandemic. First, I will look at a number of amendments we have tabled that specifically look at how the high street has declined. Amendment 431 probes the impact of business rates and council tax on the number of vacant high street premises. We know that business rates have become extremely problematic for many retailers and other small businesses on the high street, and we believe it is time for the Government to review business rates. I hope the Bill is an opportunity for the Minister to explore that further than we have so far.
Amendment 432 probes the impact of pedestrianisation on the number of vacant high street premises. How people feel about their high streets when they do not have traffic going up and down them is an area of real interest. Evidence shows that it makes it a nicer place to shop. Maybe if we looked at pedestrianisation within the context of vacancies and business rates, we could see how we could make improvements.
Amendment 433 probes the impact of vacant pubs on high streets. Unfortunately, a lot of public houses are closing and I know from public houses on the main street near where I live that business rates are a major problem in that area. Perhaps we can look at business rates around pubs particularly, because they have had specific challenges during the pandemic.
Amendment 434 is about the impact of access to cash and high street banks. Unfortunately, too many banks have been closing high street branches and often we also lose the cashpoint and the ability for small businesses to manage their finances effectively and efficiently. One of the problems is that banks seem to think that bringing a van and parking it in the supermarket car park every now and again is providing a sufficient service. We do not believe that to be the case; we think we need to look at how we can stop the loss of banks on the high street.
Amendment 435 probes the impact of disparity in costs between online and high street retail. We know that online shopping is having a major effect on our high streets which, again, is why we need to look at business rates. Surely the way to resolve that disparity is to see how it can be ensured that retail on the high street is not put at a disadvantage through business rates, and that online retailers are properly taxed and there is a better balance between the two.
Amendment 436 in the name of my noble friend Lady Taylor of Stevenage looks at how increasing dwell time can support regeneration. Dwell time is how long you actually spend there. We have asked for a Minister to publish a report on how leisure, culture, sport and tourism in town centres can increase dwell time for the purpose of regeneration. For example, if retail is not going to fill every shop unit, how can we use leisure, culture, sport and tourism to do so? How will that encourage more people to come into the town centre and shop more?
Looking specifically at some clauses in this part, Clause 176 sets out the arrangements for local authorities to designate where our town centres and high streets are—in other words, the places that will be in scope for premises to be subject to rental auctions, which come later under Clause 188. This is an important first step in the process. Amendment 415 in the name of my noble friend Lady Taylor of Stevenage would require any designations of high streets or town centres to be consulted upon. This is a pretty modest proposal, we believe. It just means that local communities affected by the designation of high streets and town centres would be consulted. We believe that is the right way forward; nobody knows what is or is not a high street or a town centre. Who knows better than the people who use it and live near it?
Amendment 416 in the name of my noble friend Lady Taylor of Stevenage probes the possibility of new incentives to fill empty shops. This develops that previous amendment further by including consultation with local businesses on possible incentives as to how empty shops can be filled. Again, they will know their local community well and may have some interesting ideas as to how the local situation can be improved.
Amendment 417 allows the local community to apply for a street or an area to be designated as a high street or a town centre. This builds on the previous two by adding a protection to ensure that any local community is empowered to seek that a street or an area of their choosing could be designated as a high street or town centre—in other words, giving the community the right to initiate. We believe that communities should have some say as to where their high streets are.
Amendment 437 in my name defines “local community”. To make Amendments 415 to 417 make sense, Amendment 437 defines what is considered “local” in this regard. We have specified people “in the vicinity” to add in protection from potential outside interference. This is an important point. It is about demonstrating that levelling up should not be something done to communities but is something done with them. As part of that, there need to be protections and powers for our communities; our amendments would ensure that these exist.
I will now turn to what constitutes “vacancy”. My Amendment 419 removes the Henry VIII powers for the Secretary of State to alter the circumstances of vacancy. Amendment 424 removes the Henry VIII power that allows the Secretary of State to add or remove grounds of appeal. In general, though, we think the Government have got this right. According to the Bill, vacant premises must have been vacant for a year or for 366 days in the previous two years. We think this is a sensible balance between detriment to the local community and commercial pressures. Our issue is with subsections (5) and (6). Subsection (5) reads:
“Regulations may amend this section so as to alter the circumstances in which the ‘vacancy condition’ is satisfied in relation to premises”.
Subsection (6) says:
“Those circumstances must relate to the time during which premises are or have been unoccupied”.
So, essentially, Clause 178 legislates for what “vacancy” is, but the Government want to reserve the power to change it later. The arguments for and against Henry VIII powers are well known and I am not going to repeat them again today, but I will say why this part of the Bill is inconsistent with what we think levelling up needs to be.
As we have discussed previously in Committee, levelling up should be about the devolution of resources and power. It should not be about Ministers and officials in Whitehall holding all the cards and making decisions about which town centre or high street will benefit from government investment or involvement. Amendments 419 and 424 seek to remove those Henry VIII powers and give us protection in the future.
My Amendment 421 reduces the period after which an initial letting notice would expire to 28 days. Clause 180 is the first clause in this part of the Bill which provides the detail about how the process is likely to work. It is important that the state does not act in an overbearing way and that there is a balance between private and public interests. Currently, this tilts entirely towards landlords, which can lead to long-running vacant and derelict premises blighting our communities and high streets.
Clause 180 sets out that an initial letting notice will be in force for 10 weeks and that a final letting notice can be served only while the initial notice is in force. Our view is that 10 weeks is too long. If we add on the 14 weeks of the final notice period, that makes it a 24-week process, and if the premises has already been vacant for at least a year, or 366 days in the preceding two years, that is a long period of time for it to be empty. We want the Bill to deliver swift action to bring about the change that people want in their communities, so we do not want to see such a long process. Our amendment seeks to rectify that by specifying a shorter notice period of 28 days. We think that four weeks is enough time for landlords to understand the implications of the notice, to act promptly, and to find new tenants as a last opportunity before that process then kicks into being.
In a similar vein, Amendment 423 would reduce the period before a final letting notice can be issued to two weeks. Clause 183 establishes the final notices. As I have said, these are used when a premises has laid vacant for a year or 366 days over two years and has been served its initial notice but no action has taken place and it is still lying vacant. Obviously, that has a huge impact on the local community. On the face of the Bill, final notice has to take place after eight weeks have elapsed from the serving of the initial notice, but not before the notice itself expires after 10 weeks. As I have just said, we feel that this period is too long. Amendment 423 would allow for the final letting notice to be served after two weeks have passed following the serving of the initial letting notice.
My Amendment 422 would prevent the landlord from transferring the premises between related entities while the initial letting notice is in force. Clause 181(1) prohibits landlords from entering into contracts for the building, other than for the sale of the site, without the consent of the local authority. However, the local authority, as covered in Clause 182, must grant approval, provided that the landlord has agreed a lengthy tenancy that meets the conditions. We welcome that the restrictions aim to prevent landlords from trying to escape their obligations; for example, by entering into a bogus tenancy that includes an immediate break clause. In this case, the new tenant—possibly a friend or family member—might be a tenant for a day, and they could then execute a break clause and vacate the premises, and the clock can restart. It is right that the Government are looking to close these kinds of loopholes. However, the purpose of this amendment is to probe whether the clause still leaves a gap where a landlord might seek to pass ownership of a premises to a friend or family member, or perhaps a related company, in order to establish new ownership and restart the clock, when in reality nothing has changed. The amendment may not be the best way to close such a loophole, but I tabled it for the Minister to consider the matter and see whether a better way could be created.
My Amendment 427 requires the Secretary of State to lay any regulations under this clause before Parliament within 90 days. It reflects our belief that it is important to get as much of the Bill as possible on to the statute book in good time. We support rental auctions so that landlords can use their properties, or other groups can seek to, and we want the powers to have teeth so that they are not easily circumvented and are usable.
My Amendment 429 would exempt from compensation damage that is caused when the authority or its agent needs to force access to a site following the failure to allow such access by the landlord. If Clause 201 is used proactively by local authorities and communities, it will of course mean that it is disruptive: it is meant to be. I have no doubt that there will be cases where some landlords think that the best course of action is to ignore the process entirely, especially if they are based a long way away from the communities where the premises are situated. There have to be powers for the local authority to enter premises, and we fully support that.
Lord Etherton (CB)
My Lords, I draw attention to my amendment, co-signed by the noble Lord, Lord Thurlow—and I am very grateful to him for doing so. The amendment is to Clause 178(4).
Clause 178 is dealing with the vacancy condition, which is one of the conditions for permitting letting or rental auctions by local authorities. My question is probing, to do with certainty. Clause 178 (4) mentions
“Occupation by … a trespasser, or … a person living in premises that are not designed or adapted for residential use”,
but goes on to say that
“this is not to count for the purposes of this section”.
Since the section deals with both what is occupied and what is not to count as occupation, it is unclear what that means. I ask the Minister to make it clear.
I think the intention must be that where a trespasser is in occupation or there is
“a person living in premises that are not designed or adapted for residential use”,
the premises are not to be treated as unoccupied for the purposes of Clause 178(1). That is my understanding. If that is incorrect and it is intended that they should be treated as unoccupied, the amendment provides that if a landlord has taken possession proceedings, they are not to be treated as unoccupied. It is really a question of clarity as to what Clause 178(4) is meant to do here. If the Minister can give a clear explanation from the Dispatch Box, that would help me and may be the end of the matter.
Lord Thurlow (CB)
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, for identifying what I believe to be an unintended consequence in connection with the proposed forced auctions of high street property. I am pleased to add my name in support of Amendment 418.
Following many years of practice as a chartered surveyor, specifically in the commercial property market, I am well aware that one of the most difficult challenges that landlords of vacant property can face is that of the unauthorised or illegal occupation of their premises. Securing legal and legitimate possession from an occupier who refuses to leave is expensive and time-consuming and can easily—and unfairly—add to the long list of bad landlord stories.
If that unauthorised occupation involves residential property, the problems of cost and delay can increase significantly. I appreciate that the clause we are referring to does not refer to residential occupation, but commercial shops are frequently let to sole traders who use an upper floor storage space informally as residential accommodation. It is outside the terms of the lease, but it may remain a fact, so it is worth pointing out that residential occupation comes into this amendment.
Amendment 418 is designed to protect a landlord from enforcement by the local authority of the auction process when they are already doing their very best to secure vacant possession. They are trying to get rid of an unauthorised occupier. Without this possession, it becomes impossible to let the property. Who would conceive of signing a lease for a shop as a tenant with an illegal trader already in place? Surely it is wrong to penalise the landlord who is keen to let their property but is unable to do so. While legal action is under way, that landlord receives no rent and is probably paying interest on a commercial mortgage. They are likely in breach of their rental income covenants with the bank, so may be verging on defaulting on that loan, and are likely employing costly solicitors to pursue legal action for recovery of their property. Yet, by this Bill, they could be accused of keeping a property vacant.
The clock should not start on the period defined as “lying vacant” until the property is vacant and is in the landlord’s gift to be let to a tenant. I do not believe that it is the Government’s intention to auction off commercial premises that are the subject of legal action to recover possession, so I ask the Minister to ensure that, while legal proceedings are under way to secure possession, the landlord does not inadvertently fall into the trap of effective confiscation by the authorities.
This amendment is not a matter of policy or principle. It does not dispute the intention of Clause 178. It is simply a practical matter that, unamended, will lead to confusion and conflict between vested interests, which, I am sure, is unintended.
The Earl of Lytton (CB)
My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendment 426 in my name. I start by declaring an erstwhile interest as a former property manager of retail premises. It had a high street address, but the main shopping area had ceased to be in the high street some 30 years prior so, when we talk about high streets, it requires a little care in what one is actually referring to.
I pay tribute to the British Property Federation, which the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman of Ullock, mentioned in her excellent and substantial introduction to this group of amendments, but I must stress that these views are mine and not those of the BPF.
I observe that 27 clauses and a schedule is a lot of stuff to have in a Bill of this sort for something that I am advised is a really quite narrow application. However, I am looking in the direction of the noble Baroness, Lady Thornhill, because I suspect that she may have other views on this matter that she will doubtless enlighten us on.
The Government seek to attract overseas inward investment at scale, and UK real estate is one of those attractive asset classes across the world which has a great deal of further potential. I am told by the chief executive of Savills that commercial property investment in the UK runs at about £60 billion annually, about £30 billion of which comes from overseas, so this is a matter of considerable moment. However, we risk serial policy interventions, with a potential adding of burdens, increasing uncertainty and raised investor risk, which threaten to undermine this success story. Commercial rent collection moratoriums were one such thing. While I recognise that they were essential in the circumstances, they did not help.
High streets and retail properties are particularly challenged by the burdens from business rates referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, and from floor space oversupply, loss of important anchor tenants, major shifts in shopping habits and general changes in work/life balance. Many properties in regions with the highest vacancies suffer from historic business rates levels, with instances of rates liability being in excess of 100% of the rent. That makes tenancies as unattractive as private sector investment and must be addressed.
Any measure that threatens investment should be looked at critically. As far as the retail investment sector is aware, according to the information that I have from the BPF, there is little pressure across the country to introduce these auctions, and the Government admit that they will be relevant in only a minority of cases to deal with empty properties. I appreciate that if a property is creating a particular problem, it must be dealt with, but given what we are being asked to put into this Bill, I wonder whether we are not using a very large sledgehammer to crack a small nut. The BPF tells me that the likely costs of each high street rental auction to a local authority alone would exceed £6,000. At a time when strained local authority finance is prevalent, this is unlikely to make them a priority. That figure, if correct, is just the local authority’s cost—never mind the other costs for the other parties.
The Bill proposes a scheme which I find complex, with exacting compliance criteria and where decisions of local authorities in their own cause appear to be incontestable, such as a refusal of consent under Clause 184(1). Appeals under Clause 187 would be to the county court, which has its own problems of delay and cost, and may not stop there. Therefore, a potential liability to pay compensation assessed by the First-tier Tribunal on top of that makes this look like quite a chancy operation. None the less, if Ministers wish to press ahead with this measure, the Bill should better distinguish between those property owners seeking a tenant but who have been unable to find one, having used all reasonable endeavours, and those who are just being plain unco-operative, where I can see that there is a perfectly good explanation. I pay tribute to the points made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, and the noble Lord, Lord Thurlow, in that respect.
Schedule 16, which sets out the grounds on which landlords might have to appeal against a local authority’s final letting notice, should therefore be amended to include a new Clause 8, as set out in my amendment. It provides a facility for the landlord to demonstrate reasonable attempts to market the property at or below what might be described as a reasonable market rent for at least a nine-month period. That is to provide a safeguard against any capricious approach to the matter. We know that there are difficulties on the high street, and in dealing with certain types of shop premises—their shape, their configuration, their position in the high street, and other things that are going on at any given time, possibly to do with planning policy.
Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)
My Lords, I apologise that I have not been in Committee in recent sessions; I had amendments on housing. I have discovered that, as a non-affiliated Peer, it is difficult to organise the division of labour when there are so many hefty Bills going through the House.
I have a particular interest in a couple of groups of amendments being discussed today. High streets and businesses are a core levelling-up issue for so many people outside of London. The decline of the high street can illustrate viscerally the feeling of being neglected and left behind. Boarded-up shops and closing community resources such as banks and pubs can be demoralising, making it feel like the heart of a community is being ripped out. Amendments 433 and 434 from the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, are important in this regard; she summed up in a compelling way why this is an important group.
A number of the amendments refer to consultations, which are very important. I was interested in the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Thurlow, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, and the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, regarding incentives. They show that we cannot simply declare a commitment to reviving the high street; it is a bit more complicated than that, to say the least.
I want to raise the dilemma that arises when government policies with different priorities, in completely different areas from this Bill, inadvertently make matters worse for high streets. I will reflect on and support Amendment 432, from the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor of Stevenage, on assessing the impact of pedestrianisation.
Pedestrianisation can intuitively seem like a good idea for high streets—a positive contributor to a community atmosphere, with increased footfall and increased likelihood of people popping into premises and so on. But stop and consider Naz Choudhury who, for many years, ran the successful Temple Bar, a halal Lebanese grill and Indian food restaurant in Oxford, which permanently closed recently. Why did it close? Mr Choudhury blames a certain form of enforced pedestrianisation in the council-imposed low-traffic neighbourhoods, specifically car restrictions in the Cowley Road area of east Oxford. Mr Choudhury says:
“The council’s decision to put these bollards up along Cowley Road was the main reason people don’t want to travel here anymore”.
Obviously, that is a subjective view, but there are a lot of controversies surrounding the Government’s active travel policies, which emphasise cycling and walking over driving. Businesses are saying that policies such as LTNs are having a negative impact on them. In Haringey, where I live, many shop owners say that LTNs are causing them to lose business.
The controversy around LTNs in Cowley Road in Oxford even hit the national newspaper headlines, largely because of opposition by Clinton Pugh, who is the father of the brilliant “Little Women” actress Florence Pugh. Clinton Pugh said:
“The council have literally strangled the life out of the Cowley Road and it is having a very negative effect on businesses.”
Mr Pugh, who is the owner of two or three cafés and restaurants on the road, even put up a banner accusing Oxford of censorship, quoting Orwell’s Nineteen Eighty-Four. Rather than talking to or listening to him, the council’s response was to threaten to fine him for not getting planning consent for the banner.
Beyond the celebrity stories, a serious point for this group of amendments on the high street is to note that policies such as LTNs, which I am sure are very well intentioned, can create a type of pedestrianisation that is bad for business. Too often, councils just will not listen to the complaints or look at the evidence. Cowley Road traders became so exasperated that they produced their own business impact survey of the effects of traffic-reducing measures. It revealed that at least eight shops had closed where LTNs are located; that 153 shops had been directly or indirectly affected through a loss of customers and logistical problems with deliveries to businesses and customers; and that business owners reported a decrease in turnover of 30% in some instances, with some claiming 50%. A letting agent said that the tradespeople they use had increased their call-out fee from £45 to £65 due to the time it takes to get around in a van, the extra fuel used and so on. Hospitality businesses are particularly affected. A staff member at a specialist supermarket, which people travel a long way to get to, noted:
“We don’t sell many large bags of rice now because they’re too heavy to take on the bus”.
Something that looks like “Let’s get everyone walking or on the bus, and it will all be lovely and pedestrianised” is actually destroying businesses and having a bad effect on consumers, who cannot get what they want to buy. We can see parallels between pedestrianisation and the removal of free—or any—parking spaces in town. This is a double blow to both shoppers and SMEs alike, again in the name of anti-car, active travel policies.
Oxford traders say:
“We’ve been asking for an independent business impact assessment to be carried out but the council have ignored us, so we had to do our own”.
If we are to have a levelling-up discussion, Amendment 432 would be a sensible way to sort out the pros and cons of pedestrianisation in local areas. In other words, you cannot have top-down policies that undo any possibility of local residents or businesses having a proper say. LTNs illustrate that.
Lord Etherton (CB)
My Lords, I apologise to the Committee: I should have disclosed before I spoke that I have an interest as the owner of high street retail premises.
Baroness Thornhill (LD)
My Lords, there is so much that can be said regarding high streets that is very well evidenced, and in fact there is consensus about what does and does not work. Our concern on these Benches is that the various measures in the Bill, even when combined—it is important to see that—probably do not go far enough or are bold enough to really level up or regenerate. However, this is not Second Reading. I am pleased to speak positively to this part of the Bill and to this group of improving and strengthening amendments, which have been well described in appropriate detail by their proposers, particularly the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman of Ullock, as has already been mentioned.
I have to confess to becoming mildly excited about the prospect of local government being able to oblige landlords to rent out persistently vacant high street premises through the rental auctions process. As the elected Mayor of Watford, I inherited a high street shamefully branded in a tabloid headline as “Ibiza on acid”, and where the national crime survey showed one of our town centre side streets as one of the worst crime hotspots in the country several years running. Yes, more bad headlines, but more importantly it was backed up by local people’s opinions, experiences and—never to be forgotten—their perceptions. There was much work to be done, and it took years.
Thus I have bitter experiences of first, and most importantly, trying to track down the landlords of vacant premises—in other words, those who have real legal responsibilities and can actually do something and not just pass the buck. It was rarely straightforward, and any improvement that the Government can make to ease that part of the process would be very welcome and undoubtedly strengthen this policy.
For us, the formation of a business improvement district was critical to eventual success, and one hopes that they continue to be supported. In fact, it was the BID team which was able to do much of the footwork that is going to be needed of continuously monitoring vacant units and all the other premises on the high street. Given the skills and capacity issues in local councils that have been mentioned, this is definitely going to further stretch resources, particularly in district councils. Will the Minister reassure us that the Government have plans to target these issues?
On further investigation, we found that there was often a wide range of reasons why properties were empty, many of them legitimate and often complex and challenging. Amendment 426 in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, essentially speaks to that dilemma. He may be surprised to learn that I can empathise. I say to him that any good council would and should seek to work with a landlord in the circumstances outlined in his amendment and help and support the landlord in getting the premises re-let. But I recognise that this is not always the case and despair when I hear case studies such as that from the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, of when things have clearly gone awry and councils have not listened. I do not believe in being prescriptive about it because I could stand here and tell noble Lords how pedestrianisation revitalised our high street. My instincts are always to say, “Let councils decide what suits their circumstances”, but in the full knowledge that sometimes they mess it up.
What was key was the partnership approach—agents, landlords, businesses, the council and the community working collaboratively to get things to a point where a compulsory rental auction would not be necessary. That would be a measure of its success. But all too often we found that the landlord was not the kind of one described by the noble Earl but a pension group or similar investor with a wide range of holdings and for which a couple of shops in Watford High Street were small beer. For a wide range of commercial reasons it did not “suit their circumstances at the moment” to re-let. I sincerely hope that these are the landlords that this legislation will drive to the table.
The word “community” in my list of partners is important. Amendments 417 and 437 emphasise the involvement of the community, which is the heart of any place, as we know—the hub for getting together to enjoy a wide range of activities and events. In short, it is hard to imagine that a local plan would be found sound if it did not involve a policy for the high street and significantly involve the local community in its formation. Can the Minister confirm this?
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
My Lords, I start by addressing Amendments 415, 416 and 417 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor of Stevenage. Clause 176 sets out the criteria and conditions that must be met before high street or town centre designation can be made. Local authorities are uniquely placed to make this designation based on their deep knowledge of their area and we must empower them to do so. The needs of both local people and local businesses may have also been considered by local authorities in the development of their local plans and regeneration programmes. These amendments add complexity and burdens for local authorities, so the Government are not able to support them, or Amendment 437, which is consequential on 415 and 417.
Amendment 418 in the name of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, seeks to clarify what is meant by “occupied” for the purpose of assessing the vacancy condition. Clause 178(4) is aimed at excluding occupation by trespassers or property guardians for the purpose of this assessment. Amendment 418 would refine that position so that this type of occupation can count where the landlord is taking steps to remove such occupiers through possession proceedings. The Government see these exclusions as necessary to ensure the policy aims of filling commercial premises for high street uses. We also consider it reasonable to expect landlords to keep their premises secure to prevent squatters, or to take court action where necessary. The Government recognise that there may be more complicated cases of trespassers, but we also consider that many local authorities are unlikely to conduct a high street rental auction on a property that has such complications. While the Government do not feel able to support this amendment at this time, I would add that we do recognise that there may be many challenges caused to landlords by trespassers. We trust local authorities to use these permissive powers sensibly where there are complications caused by certain types of trespassers. I have listened to the noble and learned Lord, and I will give his amendments further consideration.
Amendments 419 and 424, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman of Ullock, seek to remove the Henry VIII powers for the Secretary of State to alter the circumstances of vacancy, and the flexibility within grounds of appeal, which are set out in Schedule 16. This power may be needed in future in the light of experience in operation: for example, to alter the vacancy period to ensure that it is targeting the right premises and can respond to changing market conditions; or, in the case of grounds of appeal, where there may be a need to increase the safeguards available to landlords, or to revise these grounds where they are found to undermine effectiveness. We appreciate the importance of parliamentary scrutiny regarding the grounds of appeal, and any amendment will be subject to the affirmative procedure. In the light of that, the Government are not able to support this amendment.
Amendment 420 amends the local benefit condition in Clause 179 so that a property can be let only if it supports regeneration. Currently, the local benefit condition will be satisfied if the local authority considers that occupation of the premises for a suitable high street use would be beneficial to the local economy, society or environment. The local benefit condition is framed by reference to aims that are usually associated with regeneration. Another statutory example demonstrating the use of similar language is Section 226 of the Town and Country Planning Act 1990. We wish to avoid introducing further considerations for local authorities, inadvertently narrowing the scope; so the Government cannot support this amendment.
Amendments 421 and 423 reduce the period after which an initial letting notice would expire and the period of time after which a final letting notice can be issued. We consider that making the process too quick will place an unreasonable strain on local authorities that are looking to exercise these powers. We also do not consider that these reduced timescales will provide the landlord with a reasonable amount of time to let the premises themselves and, in appropriate cases, to work with the local authority, increasing the risk that high street properties go through the auction process unnecessarily.
Amendment 422 would prevent landlords from transferring premises between related entities while an initial letting notice was in force. An initial letting notice is not affected by any change in landlord, as made clear by Clause 199(7). We do not want high street rental auctions to prevent landlords from selling their interest in the property, provided that the initial letting notice continues to bind.
Amendment 426, in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, would add a further ground for appeal against the use of a high street rental auction. Schedule 16 sets out the grounds on which a landlord can appeal against a final letting notice. The amendment would require local authorities to consider whether a landlord had taken reasonable steps to rent the property before undertaking a high street rental auction, preventing them from taking place where a landlord has done so. The amendment would introduce a complex test which could place significant burdens on a local authority and would likely discourage use and lead to it becoming ineffective. There is already a wide range of grounds for appeal, which ensures fairness for landlords. The amendment also raises matters that should feed into a ground of appeal, such as planning. These matters are already being given careful consideration by the Government. In the case of planning, the Government are currently consulting on extending permitted development rights.
Amendment 427 would require that regulations relating to the rental auction process were laid within 90 days of Royal Assent. Clause 188 sets out the principles of the rental auction process. Significant detail in relation to the process will need to be provided, which will be more appropriately dealt with through regulations. While we will make regulations as soon as possible, it is not possible to commit to a timeline of 90 days because the regulations will be informed by extensive engagement with the sector, which will then need to be reflected in the drafting of those regulations. The Government are therefore not able to support this amendment.
On Amendment 429, we consider it more appropriate to provide landlords with a general entitlement to seek compensation for damage where local authorities have exercised their power of entry and to let the Upper Tribunal decide whether there are any circumstances affecting the landlord’s entitlement to compensation, rather than providing specific exemptions. That is the approach adopted in other legislation, such as the compensation provisions in Section 176 of the Housing and Planning Act 2016, which relate to the power to enter and survey land. The Government do not feel able to support this amendment.
On Amendment 430, I assure noble Lords that high street rental auctions are being designed to minimise costs incurred by local authorities by streamlining the process and through distributing the costs across landlords and tenants. We agree with the intention of the amendment, which is why the high street rental auction consultation contains questions relating to the distribution of the associated costs and details of a standardised lease, and it would be inappropriate to pre-empt the result of the consultation. We are also making up to £2 million of funding available for support with the costs of rental auctions, and full details of this will be announced in due course. The Government are therefore not able to support this amendment.
On Amendments 431, 432, 433, 434, 435 and 436, the measures in the Bill seek to support lively high streets with activity that attracts people and businesses and avoids long-term vacancies, complementing existing government support that directly addresses the concerns raised in these amendments. There is support available to regenerate high streets, including £3.6 billion-worth of investment in the towns fund, a £4.8 billion investment in the levelling-up fund and a £2.6 billion investment in the shared prosperity fund. That is together with the £13.6 billion support package, announced in the Budget this year, to protect ratepayers facing bill increases over the next five years.
The High Streets Task Force continues to provide essential support to local leaders, with 123 local authorities having received expert advice in topics such as place-making and planning. I recognise that these amendments highlight key issues faced by many of our high streets, but I hope I have provided enough reassurance that these concerns are, or will be, addressed through current government actions.
Finally, in response to the noble Baroness, Lady Fox—
Baroness Pinnock (LD)
I apologise to the Minister for interrupting, but before she sits down, can she address this point? One of the key arguments made—in that group of amendments to which the noble Baroness referred—by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman of Ullock, and by myself and my noble friends Lord Shipley and Lady Thornhill, was about the huge disparity in business rates between online retailers and high street town centre retailers. I will repeat a comparator that I have mentioned previously. A well-known online retailer—not many miles distant from me—pays £45 per square metre in business rates on its premises, whereas a small town high street shop near me pays £240 per square metre. It is that vast difference that is penalising our town centre shops. This is the heart of the problem that this clause is trying to address, and we are supportive of that—but unless we deal with this big difference, nothing much will change. I would be glad to hear from the Minister what the Government intend to do about business rates.
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
We are simplifying the issue of the high street. I have listened a number of times to what has been said about business rates, and I have explained how much the Government are putting in to supporting properties in the high street through the revaluation process, et cetera. The Government provide rate relief to help property owners all the time, but the issue of empty properties in the high street is much more complex than that, so there are a number of things we want to address, and one of them is what we are doing in this Bill.
I was saying that I will write to the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, because I would like some further information from the Department for Transport.
Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate, which covered an important part of the levelling-up agenda. I am just thinking about the Minister’s comments. A number of times she said that it was not appropriate to accept the amendment at the moment because it pre-empted the findings of the consultation that was going on. I have said this before, but I think it would be helpful if legislation were brought forward after consultation, rather than during or before it, because that consultation could then inform the legislation. It just seems a bit backwards, as if it is around the wrong way.
Also, there are the levelling-up funds, the towns fund and various other funding pots, but they do not necessarily always go to the most needy or provide the long-term support that is needed. It is how we provide that long-term change that is important. Too often there are sticking plasters with bits of pots of money.
Workington is obviously a town near me; I used to be the Member of Parliament for Workington in the other place. An industry report by planning consultancy Marrons showed that Workington was near the bottom of the 360 provincial towns that it looked at. It has had some funding recently, for example from the levelling-up fund, and we are of course grateful for that, but the money is going to be spent on improving key routes, bringing in new cycling routes and building a new café. Well, that is lovely, but it will not solve the fact that Debenhams and Laura Ashley have gone. If people find they do not need to come into the town centre because those key shops have now closed, they are more likely to go somewhere else to shop. We really need to look at this in a much broader way. Again, that is why business rates are so very important and they are one of the main sticking points.
Again, on the issues around corporate landlords and pension funds, I absolutely agree with everything the noble Baroness, Lady Thornhill, said on those. We are pleased that the Government are looking to do something about empty shop units. As an example from where I used to live, two shops next door to each other are owned by the same landlady and have been empty for over 20 years, purely and simply because when her shops failed she did not want to let them out to anybody else. So the fact that the Government are trying to do something about this is important, but it has to be done with the support of local authorities and the local community and it has to be done in a way that genuinely makes a difference. It is also important, as other noble Lords have said, that we do not end up with exploitable loopholes or unintended consequences but do have proper oversight. Having said that, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
Baroness Scott of Bybrook
“Power to require provision of certain classes of information(1) Regulations may require the provision of information that is within the scope of a permitted purpose.(2) So far as the regulations are to extend to England and Wales, the permitted purposes are—(a) the beneficial ownership purpose (see section (The beneficial ownership purpose)),(b) the contractual control purpose (see section (The contractual control purpose)), and(c) the national security purpose (see section (The national security purpose)).(3) So far as the regulations are to extend to Scotland or Northern Ireland, the only permitted purpose is the national security purpose.(4) Regulations under this section must, for each requirement they impose, specify—(a) the person on whom the requirement falls,(b) the occurrence or circumstances that gives or give rise to the requirement,(c) the time limit for complying with the requirement, and(d) the person to whom the required information is to be provided.(5) The occurrence or circumstances specified under subsection (4)(b)—(a) must, in the case of a requirement to provide information within the scope of the national security purpose, and(b) in any other case may,be (or include) the giving of a notice in accordance with the regulations to the person on whom the requirement falls.(6) In relation to such cases, the regulations may also make provision deeming notice to have been given at a certain time in certain circumstances.(7) The person specified under subsection (4)(d) must be—(a) the Chief Land Registrar, or(b) another person exercising public functions on behalf of the Crown.(8) Regulations under this section may—(a) make provision about how information is to be provided (including provision requiring it to be provided by electronic means specified in the regulations);(b) provide for, or make provision about, the application of the regulations to persons outside, or information held outside, the United Kingdom; (c) relate to things done or arising before the coming into force of this section.”Member's explanatory statement
This new Clause and the other new Clauses in the Minister’s name before Clause 204 recast the powers in Part 11 so as to make them exercisable only for stated purposes (along with other minor changes).
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
My Lords, I am pleased to introduce government Amendments 438A, 440ZA, 440ZC, 440B and 440E, which provide clarity and certainty about how the powers relating to interests and dealings in land can and will be used.
First, the Secretary of State will have the ability to require by regulations the disclosure of beneficial ownership information, where it is not already available. These changes will supplement and reinforce the current transparency regime. Secondly, the amendments give the Secretary of State the ability to create regulations to require information on certain arrangements which control land, short of outright ownership. This will enhance the available information on those arrangements. Thirdly, the amendments would allow regulations to enable the Secretary of State to require certain details of ownership and control about a property, where it appears to the Secretary of State that there is a national security threat linked to that property. That could apply, for example, to critical national infrastructure or sensitive sites.
Baroness Pinnock (LD)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for her clear explanation of the government amendments here. From what she said, it seems to me that there is a dual purpose to the amendments. One is contained in the section relating to national security, which I understand but I wonder why it has appeared in this Bill and not in other Bills related to national security, one of which went through this House not long ago.
The second group of amendments is about aiding the development of land where land ownership is not known. I would like the Minister to help here, because the ownership of a lot of land is not yet recorded by the Land Registry—it is recorded only following a change of hands, through a sale or transfer in some way. I would like to understand from the Minister quite how ownership of land is to be established without the Land Registry having already had that recorded. I understand the direction that the Government intend here, but it seems to me that there is a gap, unless I have misunderstood the purpose of some of those amendments.
Will she explain, first, why this national security element has appeared in a levelling-up Bill, unless it is to do with regeneration? Secondly, if she could help with establishing land ownership that has not yet been recorded by the Land Registry, I would be grateful.
Lord Hope of Craighead (CB)
My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 440A in my name. This amendment is intended to draw attention to a recommendation by the Constitution Committee, of which I am a member, in its report on the Bill. Part 11, of which Clause 207 forms part, gives power to the Secretary of State to make regulations requiring the provision of information on transactions and other dealings in land if the Secretary of State considers
“that the information would be useful”
to identify the owners of the land and those with the right
“to control or influence … the owner of a relevant interest in land”.
Clause 207(1) states that these regulations may also provide for
“the sharing of such information with persons exercising functions of a public nature, for use for the purposes of such functions”.
Clause 207(3), to which my amendment is directed, addresses the risk, which is understandable, that there may be an inaccuracy or omission in the information that is provided, arising from the sharing or publication of this information. It states:
“No civil liability is to arise from the sharing or publication of information under regulations under this section by reason of any inaccuracy or omission in the information as provided further to a requirement imposed under section 204 or 205”.
The question then is: who needs this protection? As the Constitution Committee understood it, the intention of this clause is to give that protection to the persons to whom that information has been provided by the Secretary of State. That is because they are the people who will be required by the regulations to share or publish that information. It is obviously desirable that they should have that protection against civil liability if the information that they have been required to share or publish by reason of these regulations is misleading or inaccurate.
It is on that understanding that the suggestion was made by the committee that Clause 207(3) should be more tightly defined in the interests of legal certainty. The suggestion is that it should make it clear that our understanding is correct. That would be achieved if the words
“as respects those persons to whom the information is provided”
were inserted into the clause. As the clause stands, it might be thought to extend the protection further down the line as the information is shared more widely by persons who are doing this not because they are required to do it by the regulations but for some other reason, which may be unrelated to the regulations themselves. However, if it is the intention that the protection should extend that far, the committee suggests that the wording of this provision should be looked at again to make this clear.
I hope this explanation for the amendment may be helpful. It is intended to assist the Government and make it absolutely plain how far the protection the subsection is intended to give should extend.
Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)
My Lords, I have a couple of amendments in this group. We have heard that Part 11 sets out a framework for creating powers to require disclosure of certain relevant information relating to ownership and control of land in England and Wales, including transactional information. Of course, if this is implemented, it is another significant layer of disclosure around land ownership and control in England and Wales, supplementing the information that is currently held or is going to be held in a number of public registries. It appears that the Government’s ultimate goal here is to ensure transparency around land ownership and control in England and Wales. We would support this aim.
My Amendment 440 probes the retrospective application of this section. As drafted, the provisions could require the disclosure of information relating to events prior to the enactment of the Bill. Clause 206(4) says:
“Regulations under section 204 or 205 may relate to things done or arising before the coming into force of this Part”.
This amendment probes the benefits of doing this retrospective application and what the Government are aiming to achieve through this.
My second amendment, Amendment 439, probes how local communities can request land ownership information. It would be really helpful if the Minister could provide a bit more information for us to understand how communities are expected to access this information and how that fits in with the role of the Secretary of State.
I thank the Minister for her thorough introduction to the government amendments. Amendments 438A, 438B, 438C, 438D and so on insert clauses before Clause 204. They
“recast the powers in Part 11 so as to make them exercisable only for stated purposes”.
Do these provisions apply to government agencies, such as Homes England, as well? If conditions are attached, they can get in the way when regeneration schemes are being considered. It would be good to have some clarification on that point.
We would support the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, in what he is trying to achieve in Amendment 440A. If the Minister could either provide clarification to the noble and learned Lord or look at tightening up the wording, as he suggests, that would be extremely helpful.
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
My Lords, in response to Amendment 439 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman of Ullock, I confirm that it will be in the public interest for some of the information that is collected to be published. For example, we intend to publish data on arrangements such as option agreements that developers and others have over land. However, there is some information that we will not be able to publish, so we need to strike the balance between transparency, legitimate privacy, confidentiality and practical or security considerations. Therefore, some information will be shared only
“with persons exercising functions of a public nature, for use for the purposes of such functions”.
At this stage, I want to answer a couple of questions from the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock. She asked why we need beneficial ownership. We believe that the property market in England and Wales should be fair and transparent. A lack of transparency can make it hard to identify rogue landlords, the owners of empty properties and those liable under the Building Safety Act, and it can leave the market vulnerable to criminal activity. We believe that this will deter individuals from using complex structures to obscure ownership of property, and it will provide criminal offences and sanctions for failure to comply.
Baroness Scott of Bybrook
“The beneficial ownership purpose(1) Information is within the scope of the beneficial ownership purpose if it appears to the Secretary of State that the information would be useful for the purpose of— (a) identifying persons who are beneficial owners of land in England or Wales, or(b) understanding the relationship of those persons with the land that they beneficially own.(2) For the purposes of this section, a person beneficially owns land if either of the following subsections applies.(3) This subsection applies where—(a) the land is owned by a body corporate or partnership, and(b) the person is, in relation to that body corporate or partnership, a beneficial owner within the meaning given by regulation 5 of the Money Laundering Regulations.(4) This subsection applies where—(a) the land is owned as part of—(i) a trust, foundation or similar legal arrangement, or(ii) the estate of a deceased person in the course of administration, and(b) the person is, in relation to that trust, foundation, arrangement or estate, a beneficial owner within the meaning given by regulation 6 of the Money Laundering Regulations.(5) In this section—(a) expressions that are also used in regulation 5 or 6 of the Money Laundering Regulations have the same meaning as in that regulation;(b) references to ownership of land (except references to beneficial ownership) are to the legal ownership of a freehold or leasehold estate in the land;(c) “the Money Laundering Regulations” means the Money Laundering, Terrorist Financing and Transfer of Funds (Information on the Payer) Regulations 2017 (S.I. 2017/692).”Member's explanatory statement
See the explanatory statement for the first new Clause in the Minister’s name before Clause 204.
“The contractual control purpose(1) Information is within the scope of the contractual control purpose if it appears to the Secretary of State that the information would be useful for the purpose of understanding relevant contractual rights.(2) For the purposes of subsection (1), understanding relevant contractual rights includes identifying the persons holding them and understanding the circumstances in which they were created or acquired.(3) “Relevant contractual rights” are rights that—(a) arise under a contract,(b) relate to the development, use or disposal of land in England or Wales, and(c) are held for the purposes of an undertaking.(4) In this section—“contract” includes a deed (whether or not made for consideration);“undertaking” includes—(a) a business,(b) a charity or similar endeavour, and(c) the exercise of functions of a public nature.”Member's explanatory statement
See the explanatory statement for the first new Clause in the Minister’s name before Clause 204.
“The national security purpose(1) Information is within the scope of the national security purpose if— (a) the information relates to land that is within subsection (2),(b) the information is within subsection (3), and(c) it appears to the Secretary of State that requiring the provision of the information under section (Power to require provision of certain classes of information) would be justified in the interests of national security.(2) Land is within this subsection if it appears to the Secretary of State that a threat to national security arises in connection with the location of the land or anything situated or done on it.(3) Information is within this subsection if it appears to the Secretary of State that the information would be useful for the purpose of—(a) identifying persons who—(i) own relevant interests in the land,(ii) have relevant rights concerning the land, or(iii) have the ability, or are in a position that may involve the ability, to control or influence (directly or indirectly) the owner of a relevant interest in the land, or a person with a relevant right concerning the land, in the exercise of that ownership or right, or(b) understanding the relationship of those persons with the land.(4) In subsection (3)—(a) references to ownership include legal and beneficial ownership;(b) “control or influence” includes control or influence by reason of interests or rights in or under a company, partnership, trust, foundation, or legal structure or arrangement similar to any of those.”Member's explanatory statement
See the explanatory statement for the first new Clause in the Minister’s name before Clause 204.
Baroness Scott of Bybrook
Member's explanatory statement
This amendment makes it clear that details of transactions involving land can be obtained under Part 11 (notwithstanding the recasting of the powers of that Part by the new Clauses in the Minister’s name before Clause 204).
Baroness Scott of Bybrook
Member's explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the first new clause in the Minister’s name before clause 204.
“(1A) In the case of a requirement to provide information within the scope of the national security purpose, regulations under subsection (1) may be made so as to apply to information provided further to the requirement only so far as appears to the Secretary of State to be justified in the interests of national security.”Member's explanatory statement
This amendment provides that information obtained under Part 11 in the interests of national security may only be dealt with in those interests.
Member's explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the first new Clause in the Minister’s name before Clause 204.
Baroness Scott of Bybrook
Member's explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the first new Clause in the Minister’s name before Clause 204.
Baroness Scott of Bybrook
“Offences(1) A person who, without reasonable excuse, fails to comply with a requirement imposed under section (Power to require provision of certain classes of information) commits an offence.(2) A person commits an offence if—(a) the person provides information in response to a requirement imposed under section (Power to require provision of certain classes of information),(b) the information is false or misleading in a material particular, and(c) the person knows that the information is false or misleading or is reckless as to whether it is. (3) But an offence under this section is committed under the law of a given jurisdiction only if the requirement in question is imposed by regulations extending to that jurisdiction.(4) A person who commits an offence under subsection (1) is liable—(a) on summary conviction in England and Wales, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding the maximum term for summary offences or a fine (or both);(b) on summary conviction in Scotland, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 12 months or a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale (or both);(c) on summary conviction in Northern Ireland, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale (or both).(5) In subsection (4)(a), “the maximum term for summary offences” means—(a) if the offence is committed before the time when section 281(5) of the Criminal Justice Act 2003 comes into force, 6 months;(b) if the offence is committed after that time, 51 weeks.(6) A person guilty of an offence under subsection (2) is liable—(a) on summary conviction in England and Wales, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding the general limit in a magistrates’ court or a fine (or both);(b) on summary conviction in Scotland, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 12 months or a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum (or both);(c) on summary conviction in Northern Ireland, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum (or both);(d) on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years or a fine (or both).(7) If—(a) an entity within subsection (8) commits an offence under this section, and(b) a person who is, or is purporting to act as, a relevant officer of the entity authorises or permits, participates in, or fails to take all reasonable steps to prevent the commission of the offence,that person also commits the offence.(8) The entities within this subsection are those specified in the first column of the following table; and “relevant officer”, in relation to such an entity, means a person acting in a capacity specified in the corresponding entry in the second column.
Entity | “Relevant officer” |
A company. | A director, manager, secretary or similar officer. |
A partnership. | A partner. |
A body corporate (other than a company) or unincorporated body whose affairs are managed by a governing body. | A member of the governing body. |
A body corporate (other than a company) or unincorporated body whose affairs are managed by its members. | A member. |
This new Clause provides offences of non-compliance with regulations under Part 11.
Baroness Scott of Bybrook
Member's explanatory statement
This amendment removes provision superseded by the new Clause in the Minister’s name after Clause 207.
Member's explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the first new Clause in the Minister’s name before Clause 204.
Baroness Scott of Bybrook
Member's explanatory statement
This amendment removes a definition that is no longer required as a result of the new Clauses in the Minister’s name before Clause 204.
Member's explanatory statement
This amendment and the third amendment in the Minister’s name to Clause 209 are consequential on the extension of Part 11 to Scotland and Northern Ireland as well as England and Wales (see the second amendment in the Minister’s name to Clause 221, page 250, line 32).
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Haskel) (Lab)
My Lords, there is an error in Amendment 440H on the Marshalled List. The text being left out of the Bill says “England or Wales”, not “England and Wales”.
Amendment 440H
Baroness Scott of Bybrook
Member's explanatory statement
See the explanatory statement for the second amendment in the Minister’s name to Clause 209.
“(2) Schedule 18 may not come in to force until an assessment has been made of its impact on accessibility.”Member's explanatory statement
This means that schedule 18 does not come in to force until an assessment has been made of the impact on accessibility.
Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)
My Lords, during the Covid pandemic, the catering industry suffered huge disruption, and, with the support of local councils, some innovative solutions were found to create outdoor eating, drinking and dining spaces, which helped to provide some opportunity to relieve the pressure on businesses, but also to give some much-needed social space which met the constraints of Covid regulations.
In many communities, this brought a new dimension to high streets, with outdoor seating and catering creating more of a continental feel, which was, for the most part, welcomed by communities. The regulations relating to pavement trading were relaxed, and there was the opportunity to test the impact of these less formal spaces on supporting the regeneration of our high streets. So we welcome the overall aim, which is to encourage a more relaxed approach to pavement trading.
The Nationwide Caterers’ Association website states:
“The past two years have been incredibly difficult for the hospitality industry, and the hope is that refurbished outdoor spaces will help to attract customers with new offerings and a ‘continental culture that will hopefully bring Britain’s high streets to life’”.
However, as ever, the implementation of these street trading spaces during Covid highlighted some of the issues that arise, and the amendments in this group address many of them with sensible additions to the Bill that do not seek to reimpose an overbureaucratic regime.
Our Amendment 448 refers to the critical issue of accessibility. One of the main causes of complaint relating to pavement trading during the Covid crisis was that there was occasionally an inconsiderate approach to the needs of all highway users. Those with disabilities, for example, found that not enough space was left for wheelchairs or mobility scooters to get through and, for those with sight impairment, the unexpected obstacles on the highway presented major challenges. Although we support the overall drive for a more relaxed regime, it is essential that it does not create a street scene which excludes, or impairs access for, some of our community. Amendment 448 would ensure that accessibility is considered, by assessing the overall street scene and then ensuring that any pavement trading offer was compliant with keeping access routes clear.
Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)
My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor of Stevenage. I congratulate her on the efficient and effective way in which she dealt with 17 amendments; she did so with such clarity. I rise to speak to Amendments 449 to 460, all of which bar one are in my name.
In speaking to my amendments and thanking all the organisations that have sent helpful briefings to noble Lords, I want to cover something before we get into the detail: I simply wish to reassert the primary purpose of the pavement. It is not a place for excessive A-boards, advertisements, marketing materials or sprawling seating. It is a place to connect people. It is a place where we can meet on our streets. Yet, all too often, we experience inaccessibility, obstacles and problems when we are simply trying to go about our daily business. This is bad enough for anybody, but for those of us who use guide dogs or wheelchairs it can often be an impossibility. Add to that the excessive dumping and the discarding of e-scooters and you can hardly say that the current usage of our pavements is in any sense optimal, accessible or inclusive.
Let us take a step back to the Business and Planning Act 2020, in which sensible measures were brought in at a time when we were facing a once-in-a-century pandemic. It cannot be right that the lessons we take from that are to roll over some of those provisions in perpetuity now that we are, fortunately, in such a different set of circumstances.
The amendments in my name can be split into three categories: accessibility and inclusion; payment for our pavements; and healthy environments. First, on accessibility and inclusion, the principle of “inclusive by design” should be the basis on which we base everything that we do, be it physical infrastructure or things way beyond. It should be the heart and soul—indeed, the very fabric—of our communities. Yet, as we see with this set of amendments, this is all too often not the case when it comes to pavements.
As has already been set out, Amendment 455 puts the case that, when pavement licences are to be granted, the flow and access needs of users and pedestrians should be thoroughly taken into account. We can call this, if you will, the amendment that goes to the heart of the purpose of our pavements.
Amendment 460 talks about the need for tactile markings and physical barriers to demark seating areas. This is not only to enable them to be safe and demarked for people who may use white canes to navigate and may have buddies who need to get through; crucially, it will also stop the sprawl of seating. Amendment 460 can now be known as the “prohibition of sprawling seating amendment”.
Amendment 458 seeks to put the case that, where licences for seating and other ephemera are granted, such seating must be removed from the pavement when it is not in use for the reasons that the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor of Stevenage, has already set out.
Similarly, Amendment 450 puts a real case that not only the pavement should be considered for such licences. If the circumstances fit and are safe, it could be quite proper to include part of the carriageway in that pavement licence. We have already seen schemes to skinny highways; this could be an effective part of that where, in effect, the load of sharing the licence is more equitably shared between pedestrians and the users of the carriageway.
However, access and inclusion are not just about the physical environment; “inclusive by design” is just as important for practices, policies and procedures. That brings me to Amendments 454 and 456, which look at the application and consultation processes for the granting of pavement licences. In 2020, when we passed the Business and Planning Act, there was a particular need for increased speed. Businesses were facing an extraordinary set of circumstances, as were local authorities and, indeed, all of us. Those circumstances have now changed and there can be no case for that consultation not to be returned to 28 days. In fact, I put it to my noble friend the Minister that, if the consultation period is reduced as currently set out in the Bill, it could very well represent a prima facie breach of local authorities’ public sector equality duties and contravene wider equalities legislation; I welcome her view on that point.
I turn to payments for our pavements. Although we can all be supportive of a certain level of pavement usage, such as for cafés, eating and the like, it should be clearly understood that the pavement is our pavement. It is operated and administered on our behalf by the local authority. Amendments 451 and 452 speak directly to this point, not only in terms of the cleansing and maintenance of pavements as a result of the granting of these licences but in terms of the potential profit share. I believe that sharing the profits generated on those pavements—our pavements—should be strongly considered. As the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor of Stevenage, pointed out, a formula could well be constructed within the licence itself, not least for cleansing and maintenance, but I believe that the profit share point is a critical one. We want to support our local businesses but, when they have a licence and are generating business on our pavements, it is only right and proper that, through the local authority, we should share in that profit.
Finally, these amendments would enable not only safer but cleaner, more accessible and more inclusive pavements, and therefore in all senses much healthier spaces. This cannot be inordinately difficult. It is simply about properly considering and balancing the needs of restaurants and residents, cafes and the community. Unfortunately, this clearly is not happening at any level to the extent it should. If this Bill is about levelling up, if it is about regeneration, then this starts with our streets and with the primary purpose of the pavement. That is what these amendments are all about. I very much look forward to my noble friend the Minister’s response.
Baroness Randerson (LD)
My Lords, I support the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, and thank him for the lead he has taken on this issue. I was pleased to add my name to his Amendments 456, 457 and 458.
I recall our debate on the regulations that were introduced during the pandemic. We were assured that this was a temporary reduction in the notification required and in the rights of local people to object. We all understood that this was an emergency, that businesses were fighting to survive and that restaurants and pubs were doing their best to carry on providing a service at a time when it was clearly unsafe for people to be gathering inside, even if the Government had allowed it. However, there was a debate about this and as I said, we were assured that this this would be temporary.
These amendments are a modest way of ensuring that residents are still given a reasonable opportunity to object to such applications. To this day, the usual way in which people find out about planning applications is via a local notice attached to a lamp post. Most people are not sitting at home scanning council websites on the chance of finding a planning application that applies to their area. Most people object because they see a notice on a lamp post, or their neighbour tells them about it. If you have sight loss, for example, you will need longer to ensure that you are aware and can write in response, because it is not as easy as it is for people with good eyesight.
Therefore, Amendment 457 is particularly important because it would remove approval by default, which is an indefensible approach to local planning. Amendment 458 is important because it would ensure that street furniture is not left cluttering up the pavement, where people fall over it. Also, as the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, has just pointed out, guide dogs have difficulty. I have a neighbour with a guide dog and if cars are parked on the pavement, the dog takes him around them or stops. So, life is made much more difficult.
Finally, public understanding of smoke drift has been transformed in the last decade. As a keen viewer of old television series, every time I watch them, I realise how different our view and tolerance of other people’s smoke is nowadays, compared with 10 or 15 years ago. What is in these amendments is well within accepted and reasonable expectation, so I support them.
Lord Young of Cookham (Con)
My Lords, I have enormous sympathy for the case made by my noble friend Lord Holmes and very much hope that the Government respond as positively as they can.
The background to my Amendment 459, to which Peers from other parties have added their names, is the arrangements made during the pandemic to support the hospitality industry. In the interests of progress, not all four of us will be speaking, and it is good to see today’s Marshalled List down to a mere 68 pages for this last day of our debate. Noble Lords may recall that during the pandemic, when it was not possible to go into enclosed premises such as pubs, arrangements were made to grant pavement licences. When the Business and Planning Bill, which introduced this concession, came before the House in 2020, I added my name to a cross-party amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, saying that a condition of licence would be that outdoor seating areas were required to be 100% smoke-free, paralleling the arrangements inside the premises.
Noble Lords across the House supported that amendment, but sadly it was not accepted by the Government, who instead inserted a requirement in the legislation that
“the licence-holder must make reasonable provision for seating where smoking is not permitted”.
Amendment 459 would reintroduce the requirement for all pavement licences to be smoke-free, which was the view of your Lordships’ House three years ago. This would contribute to the Government’s ambition to make England smoke-free by 2030—an ambition we are currently on track to miss by nine years, according to Cancer Research UK. The current temporary requirements, which are being made permanent in this Bill, would mean that councils have two options on smoking: to implement the national condition to provide some smoke-free seating, or to go further and make 100% smoke-free seating a condition of licence at local level.
Since then, two-thirds of the public, polled in 2022, did not think that the current legislation went far enough. They wanted smoking banned from the outdoor seating areas of all restaurants, pubs and cafes. Fewer than one in five opposed such a ban. That was a large sample, of more than 10,000 people, in a survey carried out by YouGov for Action on Smoking and Health.
Some councils are already doing what the public want, with 10 councils in England introducing 100% smoke-free requirements. These are a mixture of Conservative, Labour and Lib Dem-led councils in counties such as Durham and Northumberland, cities such as Newcastle, Manchester and Liverpool, unitary authorities such as Middlesbrough and North Lincolnshire, and metropolitan boroughs such as North Tyneside, South Tyneside and the London Borough of Brent. Therefore, in response to the point about practicality made by the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, practicality has already been well established by those local authorities.
When we initially tabled our amendments, the then Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local Government wrote to Manchester City Council, the first council to introduce the requirement for pavement licences to be 100% smoke-free, warning it that this would damage local hospitality businesses and could lead to the loss of thousands of jobs. We do not know whether that letter had the approval of Health Ministers. However, the experience from Manchester and elsewhere shows exactly the opposite: that these bans have proved popular with the public, leading to high levels of compliance, and have not been shown to cause any decrease in revenues. At the time, I reluctantly agreed to the Government’s decision to include the current smoke-free seating requirements, which, while better than nothing, do not go far enough. The current system is not only much more complicated to implement than a blanket ban; it ensures that non-smokers and children continue to be exposed to tobacco smoke, which is both toxic and unpleasant. Of course, those who work for these establishments cannot go elsewhere and will continue to be exposed to smoke.
The Local Government Association of which, uniquely, I am not a vice-president, supports our amendment for 100% smoke-free pavement licences on the basis that
“it sets a level playing field for hospitality venues across the country and has a public health benefit of protecting people from unwanted second-hand smoke … If smoking is not prohibited, pavement areas will not become family-friendly spaces”.
That is why Dr Javed Khan’s independent review of smoke-free 2030 policies, commissioned by the Department of Health and published last year, recommended that smoking be prohibited on all premises, indoors and out, where food or drink is served, as well as a ban on smoking in all outdoor areas where children are present. This 100% smoke-free pavement seating has strong cross-party support from Peers across this House. When the regulations were extended in 2021, the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, tabled an amendment to regret that the regulations were not revised to take account of the evidence of the benefits of 100% smoke-free pavement licences. That amendment was agreed by 254 votes to 224.
Last year, the Government announced several new tobacco control measures and said that in place of the long-promised tobacco control plan to deliver a smoke-free 2030, tackling smoking would be core to the major conditions strategy currently in development. The measures announced today are welcome but fall far short of the comprehensive approach that Dr Khan made clear was essential if we are to achieve a smoke-free 2030. When my noble friend sums up, can she confirm that the Government intend to bring forward further measures to reduce smoking in the upcoming major conditions strategy? We should now take this opportunity, provided by this amendment, to move towards implementing Dr Khan’s recommendations for all hospitality venues to be smoke-free indoors and out—a small but important step towards a smoke-free 2030.
Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)
My Lords, last week, my esteemed colleague, the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, asked whether I would support his amendments on pavement accessibility. I trusted him completely so I said, “Yes, of course, I would love to support them”. Then I read them and, actually, they are quite tough and strict in places, but the more I read them, the more I liked them. I particularly liked Amendment 450, which is about taking bits of the road—I love that idea—and reducing the space for traffic, as well as Amendment 459 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, and others, because that is so tough on smoking and I loathe smoking. I support many of these amendments. Obviously, I support all the amendments from the noble Lord, Lord Holmes. There is, perhaps, some space to bring in the fact that cars park on the pavement. I hate pavement parking and I hate loads of rubbish bins being heaped up on the side of pavements because they inhibit free access.
My local shopping street has gone absolutely bananas with this, and it has changed the whole feeling of the street—it is so much more friendly. At the moment, only the Co-op, Iceland and Boots, I think, do not have tables and chairs outside them, with people eating, drinking and having fun. I am all in favour of this section and look forward to Report, when I would be happy to vote on many of them and perhaps even sign up to them as well.
Lord Blencathra (Con)
My Lords, it is always a delight to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb. She did say that some of my noble friend’s amendments were quite tough but that she liked them. I think the Committee would agree that the noble Baroness is quite tough and we rather like her as well. I congratulate my noble friend Lord Holmes of Richmond on the initiative he has undertaken in tabling these important amendments. He is to be congratulated by all disabled people, fighting our corner—or narrow strip of pavement, as the case may be.