Universal Credit and Personal Independence Payment Bill
(Limited Text - Ministerial Extracts only)
Read Full debateTuesday 1st July 2025
(4 weeks, 1 day ago)
Commons ChamberUniversal Credit Bill 2024-26 Read Hansard Text Watch Debate
18:59 - The House divided: - Ayes: 149 / Noes: 328 - Question accordingly negatived.
19:13 - The House divided: - Ayes: 335 / Noes: 260 - Question accordingly agreed to.
This text is a record of ministerial contributions to a debate held as part of the Universal Credit Bill 2024-26 passage through Parliament.
In 1993, the House of Lords Pepper vs. Hart decision provided that statements made by Government Ministers may be taken as illustrative of legislative intent as to the interpretation of law.
This extract highlights statements made by Government Ministers along with contextual remarks by other members. The full debate can be read here
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Liz Kendall)
I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
This Bill and our wider welfare reforms seek to fix the broken benefits system that we inherited from the Conservatives and deliver a better life for millions of people across our country. Our plans are rooted in principles and values that I know many in this House share: compassion for those who need our help most, a belief in equality and social justice, that everyone should have the chance to fulfil their potential no matter where they are born or what their parents did, and responsibility for our constituents and our country as a whole, so that we ensure the welfare state is sustainable and lasts for generations to come. But the system we inherited is failing on all those counts.
Conservative Members left us with a system that incentivises people to define themselves as incapable of work just to be able to afford to live. They then wrote people off without any help or support, then blamed them to grab a cheap headline. The result is 2.8 million people out of work due to long-term sickness, and one in eight of all our young people not in education, employment or training, with all the terrible long-term consequences that brings for their future job prospects, earnings and health. The number of people on disability benefits is set to more than double this decade, with awards for personal independence payments increasing at twice the rate of increases in the prevalence of disabled people in our society, adding 1,000 new PIP awards a day—the equivalent of adding a city the size of Leicester every single year.
Liz Kendall
Let me make some progress.
I do not believe that this is sustainable if we want a welfare state for generations to come that protects people who most need our help. There is nothing compassionate about leaving millions of people who could work without the help they need to build a better life. There is no route to equality or social justice when 9 million of our fellow citizens are out of work and not looking for work, and when our country has one of the widest disability employment gaps in Europe. There is no responsibility in leaving our system of social security to continue as is and risk support for it becoming so frayed that it is no longer there to provide a safety net for those who can never work and who most need our help and support. This Bill, alongside our wider reforms, will help people who can work to do so, protect those who cannot, and begin to get the benefits bill on a more sustainable footing.
Labour’s historic mission is to get more people into good jobs because we know the value of good work, not only as the best route out of poverty and to raise living standards, but because good work brings a sense of purpose, pride and dignity and because there is such clear evidence that good work is good for physical and mental health.
Paul Holmes (Hamble Valley) (Con)
The Secretary of State is absolutely right that any Government that take office should aim to reduce poverty in this country. Why then do her own Government’s figures show that the actions she is taking this afternoon will put an extra 150,000 people into poverty? Does she really think that is what her Back Benchers expected when they were elected to government last year?
Liz Kendall
That is what they call chutzpah, seeing as Conservative Members put an extra 900,000 children into poverty. This Government are determined to tackle child poverty and will take 100,000 children out of poverty through our plans to extend free school meals to every household on universal credit—a downpayment on our child poverty strategy in the autumn.
I am proud that at the spending review—alongside billions of extra investment to create good jobs in every part of the country, to invest in transport infrastructure and in skills so people can get those jobs, and to drive down NHS waiting lists so people can get back to health and back to work—my right hon. Friend the Chancellor delivered the biggest-ever investment in employment support for sick and disabled people, quadrupling what we inherited from the Conservatives to £1 billion a year.
Ms Polly Billington (East Thanet) (Lab)
I thank the Secretary of State for the improvements she has made to the Bill, which are extremely reassuring for my constituents, 9,000 of whom are on personal independence payments and are now reassured. Some, however, are concerned about the number of adults who could be put into poverty, following the publication of the impact assessment yesterday. I recognise that these figures do not take into consideration the impact of the planned record investment in employment support. Will she publish further assessments that provide a more accurate view?
Liz Kendall
My hon. Friend is absolutely right that those figures do not take into account the employment impact from the investment we are putting in. We have produced extremely clear evidence that good employment support works, including Work Choice—a Labour programme ended by the Tories—which meant that 40% more disabled people were in work eight years later. We will, indeed, publish further updated impact assessments before Committee stage, spelling this out in more detail.
Jim Shannon
I have been asked by representatives of people with Parkinson’s and multiple sclerosis to put this question to the Secretary of State, and I hope she will give me the answer. They are worried that people with these fluctuating conditions will be locked out of qualifying for the higher rate of the UC health element, as a functional limitation must “constantly” apply for a claimant to meet the severe conditions criteria. Will she commit to add an explicit reference to the Bill to ensure that those with fluctuating conditions such as Parkinson’s and MS are not locked out of the higher rate? It is really important for those people.
Liz Kendall
The hon. Gentleman raises a very important point. Members have asked whether people with fluctuating conditions will meet the severe conditions criteria, which are for those with lifelong conditions that will never improve and mean they can never work. It is the case that, as someone’s condition progresses, if they change and meet those severe conditions criteria, they will be protected. One of the reasons for the Timms review, which I will come on to, is precisely to make sure this vital benefit recognises the impact of fluctuating conditions on people’s lives. That is crucial to make sure this benefit is fit for the future.
Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)
Will my right hon. Friend give way?
Liz Kendall
I will make a tiny bit of progress, and then I will give way.
As I set out to the House yesterday, we have listened carefully to concerns that there would not be enough employment support in place quickly enough by the time the benefit changes come in. We are bringing forward an additional £300 million of employment support for sick and disabled people, delivering a total of £600 million next year, £800 million the year after and £1 billion in 2028-29—increasing our total spending on employment support for sick and disabled people to £3.8 billion over this Parliament—to ensure that anyone who is affected by this Bill will be offered personalised work, health and skills support, including access to a specially trained adviser by the time the legislation comes in.
Dr Luke Evans
The last Government introduced WorkWell pilots in 15 areas for 59,000 people, providing a multidisciplinary team package to get them back into work. Am I correct in thinking that the £300 million the Secretary of State is investing is built off the back of that pilot? Are they planning to continue the pilot and grow it? The results seemed to show that it had a strong record of getting people back into work while supporting their health. That is what this House wants to do. Does she agree that that is the case, and is that the funding?
Liz Kendall
Joining up work and health support is essential. I have been to visit some of the projects in place, and they are making a really big difference. We are building on that with additional investment, quadrupling what we inherited from the Conservative party. Joining up work and health support is very important, because good health and good work are two sides of the same coin, but this needs to be available widely across the country.
Let me turn to the specific measures in the Bill. Clauses 1 to 4 begin to tackle the perverse incentives left by the Conservative party, which encouraged people to define themselves as incapable of work by rebalancing the universal credit standard allowance and health top-up. I am very proud that we are delivering the first ever sustained above-inflation rise to the universal credit standard allowance—the largest permanent real-terms increase in the headline rate of out-of-work benefits since the 1970s. Some 6.7 million households—the lowest-income households—will benefit from the increase in the universal credit standard allowance, and it will deliver a £725-a-year increase in cash terms by 2029-30 for a single person aged 25 and over.
Having listened seriously to concerns about our original proposals on the UC health top-up for existing claimants and future claimants with severe conditions and those at the end of their lives, we will ensure that for these groups, the combined value of their universal credit standard allowance and the health top-up will rise at least in line with inflation, protecting their income from these vital benefits in real terms every year for the rest of the Parliament.
Alongside those changes, schedule 1 to the Bill will ensure that people with severe lifelong health conditions will never be reassessed, removing all the unnecessary and unacceptable stress and anxiety this brings, so that they have the dignity and security they deserve. Yesterday we published draft regulations on our new right to try, which will guarantee that, in and of itself, work will never lead to a benefit reassessment, giving people the confidence to try work—something many people have called for for years.
I turn to clause 5 of the Bill, on personal independence payments. Yesterday I told the House that we have listened to the concerns raised by many Members, disabled people and their organisations about the impact of the new requirement for existing claimants to score a minimum of four points on at least one daily living activity to be eligible for the daily living component. Even though nine out of 10 people claiming PIP at the point these changes come in would be unaffected by the end of the Parliament, I know this has caused deep and widespread anxiety and stress, so we have changed our original proposals. The new four-point eligibility requirement will only apply to new claims from November 2026. This means no existing claimants will lose PIP because of the changes brought forward in this Bill, and anyone who currently receives any passported benefits, such as carer’s allowance, will also be unaffected by this change.
Mr Betts
The changes to PIP, as far as they go, are very welcome, as is the review to be conducted by the Minister for Social Security and Disability, which will be co-produced with disability groups, as I understand it. However, the Government have committed to make changes in November 2026, when that review may not have been completed. Would it not be far more logical to have the review, bring it to this House for agreement and then make the changes after that?
Liz Kendall
I will come on to this point in a moment, but the purpose of the PIP review is to have a wider look at the assessment. It has not been looked at for over a decade since it came in. I understand the sequencing point, and I will come to that in a moment. It is extremely important to have a very clear message that existing PIP claimants will now be unaffected by the changes in the Bill.
Mr Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)
I am very grateful to my right hon. Friend for the fact she has listened this week, but she knows that many disabled people watching our proceedings today will remain very worried. She is absolutely right that the existing system is not working. Can she say more about the Minister for Social Security and Disability’s review and about how we can rebuild the confidence of disabled groups and the people who are worried, because every welfare reform seems to have been bad for them, in the fact that we can have a system that assesses who really needs it?
Liz Kendall
My hon. Friend makes an extremely important point. I will come on to say a little more about that in a moment. The review will be co-produced with disabled people, their organisations, clinicians, other experts and MPs, because we must ensure that we get this right. I have been a long-standing champion of co-production, including when I was the shadow Minister responsible for social care. I think we get the best decisions when we work closely with people.
Several hon. Members rose—
Liz Kendall
Let me say a bit more, because many hon. Friends raised these issues, including yesterday. We believe that protecting existing claimants, while ensuring that new PIP awards are focused on those with higher needs, strikes the right and fair balance going forward. I want to address some of the questions raised yesterday by Labour Members about the sequencing of the PIP changes, and the wider review of the PIP assessment that is being led by my right hon. Friend the Minister for Social Security and Disability.
Liz Kendall
I will make progress on this point.
No existing PIP claimant will be affected by changes in the Bill. They will also be reassessed under the existing rules whenever they have an award review. From November 2026, new claimants will be assessed under the four-point criteria. The purpose of the Timms review is to look at the PIP assessment as a whole, and ensure that it is fair and fit for the future. It therefore takes account of the huge changes in society, the world of work, and the nature of health conditions and disability since the benefit was first introduced more than a decade ago.
Josh Fenton-Glynn
I thank the Secretary of State for giving way. I welcome the improvements made to the Bill so far, but I think we still need more details about the co-productive element of the Timms review. Will she confirm that the review will guarantee that disabled people and their organisations are the key voice in developing this policy? Will the review change and revolutionise the view in Whitehall, so that future policies that impact disabled people will always have their voices central to the discussion?
Liz Kendall
I can absolutely reassure my hon. Friend about that. Many hon. Members have asked for precise details about how this process will work, and it is extremely important for us—we are beginning the process—to discuss this with disabled people, their organisations and other experts. It is not for me—[Interruption.] If the right hon. Member for Tatton (Esther McVey) would let me finish my sentence I will, of course, give way. It is important that we do not come up with—it would be completely wrong if we in Whitehall came up with a process and imposed it on other people. We have to do this properly.
Esther McVey
Have the Government taken legal advice as to whether it is lawful to treat people with the same conditions, disabilities and circumstances differently within the benefits system? It is morally unacceptable, but does the Secretary of State believe that it is lawful?
Liz Kendall
I gently remind the right hon. Lady that her own party had different rules and different rates for people on existing benefits compared with those on new benefits. That is something the Conservatives did—once again Conservative Members seem to be railing at the very problems that they caused.
I understand why many Members would like to see the results from the Timms review implemented before the four-point change takes effect. However, reviewing the assessment as a whole is a major undertaking that will take time to get right, especially if we co-produce it properly. It will be for those involved in the review to determine the precise timetable, but we are absolutely committed to moving quickly and completing the review by next autumn. I assure the House that any changes following the Timms review will be implemented as soon as is practically possible via primary or secondary legislation. Once we have implemented changes from the review, any existing PIP claimant can ask for a reassessment.
Let us be honest: welfare reform is never easy, especially perhaps for Labour Governments. Our social security system directly touches the lives of millions of people, and it is something that we all care deeply about. We have listened to concerns that have been raised to help us get the changes right. The Bill protects people who are already claiming PIP. It protects, in real terms, the incomes of people already receiving the UC health top-up from that benefit and their standard allowance. It protects those with severe lifelong conditions who will never work, and those near the end of their life, as we promised we would. But I have to tell the House that, unlike the previous Administration, this Government must not and will not duck the big challenges facing this country, because the people we are in politics to serve deserve so much better.
We are taking action to put the social security system on a sustainable footing so that it is there for generations to come. We are helping millions of low-income households across the country, by increasing the standard rate of universal credit. And because we know that there is no route to social justice based on increased benefit spending alone, we are providing record investment in employment support for sick and disabled people, so that they have the same rights and chances to work as anybody else. Our plans will create a fairer society in which people who can work get the help they need, and where we protect those who cannot—a society where the welfare safety net actually survives and is always there for those who need it. Above all, this Government are determined to give people hope that tomorrow will be better than today, with real opportunities for everyone to fulfil their potential and build a better life. I commend the Bill to the House.
Mrs Kemi Badenoch (North West Essex) (Con)
We are staring down the barrel of a crisis that no serious Government can ignore. The welfare system no longer works as it should, and what was once a safety net has become a trap. A system designed to protect the most vulnerable is now encouraging dependency, and dragging this country into deeper debt. The welfare system is a crucial safety net for the poorest and most vulnerable in our society, so I was quite surprised at the tone that the Secretary of State decided to take today. She thinks that she can stand there and get away with the fiction that all this was caused by the previous Government, so let me refresh the memories of Labour Members, especially those who were not here at the time.
In 2010, we inherited 8% unemployment, and we brought it right down. The last Conservative Government reformed welfare to introduce universal credit, and our reforms helped to ensure that unemployment more than halved and was at a near record low. What have we seen since Labour came in? Unemployment has risen every single month since Labour came into office. During our time, 800 jobs were created for every day we were in office. At the same time, until the covid pandemic, we kept spending under control, cutting the deficit every year. But covid changed everything—[Interruption.] It did, and now we face a new—[Interruption.] Mr Speaker, it is delightful to hear Labour Members laughing. I remember when we sat on the Government Benches, and they were demanding that we spent more and more and more money. Thank God it was Conservatives who were there under covid—Labour would have bankrupted the country!
We face a new reality. Under this Government, every working day 3,000 people move on to incapacity benefits—3,000 every single day. That is a 50% increase from when we left office. The Government have been in power for only one year; imagine what it will be like after the next four years. A 50% increase and 3,000 people going on to incapacity benefits every day is not normal, sustainable or acceptable. Spending is spiralling under Labour.
Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)
My right hon. Friend quite rightly mentions covid. I am sure there is one thing that we can agree on. Unfortunately, people were assessed much more often in person before covid, and during covid that was understandably stopped. Surely we can all agree that we have to get those in-person assessments going and get them going quickly.
Mrs Badenoch
The Father of the House is absolutely right. This is something we should all be able to agree on, but the Government are too busy trying to shift the blame instead of solving the problem.
Let us talk about solving the problem. We have 28 million working people propping up 28 million people who are not working—the rider is getting heavier than the horse. Health and disability benefits were £40 billion before covid. By 2030, on this Government’s spending plans, they will hit £100 billion.
Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) (Lab)
I wonder whether the right hon. Lady could help the House. During the 14 years when the Conservatives were in power, when was the time that the benefits system worked well?
Mrs Badenoch
I will remind the right hon. Lady of our inheritance. We took difficult—[Interruption.] I will. I have said it before, and I will say it again: we had 8% unemployment, and we got it down to 4%. Every single time Labour leaves office, it leaves more people unemployed.
The welfare system needs continual reform. We took difficult decisions and got universal credit through with so much opposition from Labour. We improved the system, but that does not mean it cannot be improved further. We have offered to help, but the Government do not want any help: they just want to make things worse.
By 2030, on this Government’s spending plans, we will hit £100 billion on health and disability benefits alone. That is more than we spend on defence. That should make everyone in this House stop and think, because this Bill does nothing to fix that problem. That is why we cannot support it.
The Conservative party is the only party in this House urging restraint. Unless this House acts, the Government will bankrupt our children. They will bury the next generation under a mountain of borrowing and debt, and they will do it not because we have no choice, but because they lack the courage to choose. A fundamental and serious programme to reform our welfare system is required, and this Bill is not it—it is a fudge. I feel sorry for the Secretary of State: she looks as if she is being tortured.
Mark Ferguson (Gateshead Central and Whickham) (Lab)
Will the right hon. Lady give way?
Mrs Badenoch
I will in a moment.
We all know why this is happening: this is a rushed attempt to plug the Chancellor’s fiscal hole. It is driven not by principle, but by panic. The changes were forced through not because they get more people into work, but because someone in 11 Downing Street made a mistake. It is clear that these changes were not designed to introduce fundamental reforms.
How did we get here? Last year, at the Chancellor’s first Budget, she left herself no headroom. That same Budget killed growth, meaning that unemployment has increased every month since Labour took office. This is a good time for me to remind the House again that every time Labour leaves office, it does so with unemployment higher than when it came in, and it is doing that again.
Mrs Badenoch
I will give way to the hon. Member for Birmingham Northfield (Laurence Turner) first.
Laurence Turner
I am sure the right hon. Lady would not want an inaccurate statement to stand on the record. Unemployment fell under just two 20th-century Governments: the first Labour Government and the 1970 Government of Ted Heath. I know that she is repeating a standard Conservative party message, but it is a really cynical and silly misuse of statistics.
Mrs Badenoch
The hon. Gentleman is simply wrong. He needs to get an education and look at the facts.
Graham Stuart
Does my right hon. Friend agree that the chief architect of the fiasco faced by people with disabilities and every member of the Labour party today is the Chancellor of the Exchequer? The fact that she is not here to face up and take responsibility is all we need to know about her and those on the Government Front Bench.
Mrs Badenoch
My right hon. Friend is quite right: this is a fiasco, and it is the Chancellor’s fault. She marches Labour Members up and down the hill all the time, and they are the ones who have to face their constituents. We are trying to help to get a welfare system under control and get people into work.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Beverley and Holderness (Graham Stuart) is right to raise the Chancellor. When the economic outlook worsened this spring, she chose to force through these changes to welfare, which are designed not to reform or improve the system, but to address a hole in her numbers. Those changes were rushed for Rachel, as we say. I watched when she made that Budget, and it was quite clear that she had no idea of the consequences of her decision. The country should not have to pay for the mess she has made, and neither should disabled people. Even with the changes in this Bill, welfare spending will still be billions higher at the end of the Parliament. Slowing down how much you increase spending is not a cut.
Mark Ferguson
I do not know about the rest of the House, but I am slightly baffled. The Leader of the Opposition has made a virtue of her blank slate and her blank sheet of paper, but is she in favour of more or less? Is she in favour of the actions of her Government or not? This complete lack of taking responsibility is exactly what got us into this mess in the first place.
Mrs Badenoch
I am not surprised that the hon. Gentleman is baffled, because he is clearly not listening to what I am saying. We had three conditions. We have been very, very clear that we want to see the welfare budget come down. I will make some progress.
Even with the changes in this Bill, welfare spending will still be higher by billions at the end of this Parliament. Slowing down an increase is not a cut: we need to get this under control.
Mrs Badenoch
I will make some progress.
Despite the obvious flaws in the Bill, we offered to support benefit changes in the national interest. The hon. Member for Gateshead Central and Whickham (Mark Ferguson) asked a question, and I will answer it very clearly for those who have not been paying attention. We agreed to support the Government if they could make three simple commitments; they were not unachievable or unreasonable commitments. First, they had to cut the overall welfare bill, because we are spending far too much already. Secondly, they had to get more people into work. Thirdly, they had to stand by the Chancellor’s own commitment that, with taxes at a record level because of her choices, she would not come back for more tax rises.
What did we get from the Government? A sneery response indicating that they could manage on their own. How’s that going? What happened instead was that the number of MPs opposed to the Bill grew ever larger, until the inevitable U-turn finally came, announced by a press release dispatched after midnight and a panicked letter setting out that the reforms had been gutted. The Bill is now more incoherent than it was at the beginning.
Iqbal Mohamed (Dewsbury and Batley) (Ind)
Just to reflect on the record of the previous Government, as of 2024, approximately 24% of the UK population—nearly 16 million people—were living in poverty. Between 2019-20 and 2022-23, an additional 2.1 million people were living in poverty. In the year to April 2024, before the Labour Government came into power, 4.45 million children, or 31% of children in the UK, were living in relative poverty. Will the right hon. Lady agree with me that the previous Tory Government failed a majority of the population, including disabled people and children?
Mrs Badenoch
I definitely will not agree with the hon. Gentleman. He is talking about relative poverty figures. The fact is that the best way to get people out of poverty is to get them into work—something we did again and again and again.
The Bill is more incoherent now than it was at the beginning. It does not do the job at all. Reforms that were not enough in the first place will now cut only £2 billion from a ballooning budget, instead of £5 billion. They will create a new welfare trap and a two-tier welfare system. Right up until the last moment, the Government kept pushing and pushing, ruling out changes and sending their poor, weary Ministers and ambitious Back-Bench bootlickers out on to the airwaves. At the last moment, as we have seen before, the Government abandon them after all of that—they have been hung out to dry.
The Government do not care how they have made their Back Benchers look, and it is not for the first time. Week after week, the Chancellor was sent here to say with a straight face that she was right to cut the winter fuel payment, that there would be no turning back and that the country’s finances would simply collapse if she did not take pensioners’ fuel money and give it to the trade unions, and her Back Benchers sucked that one up. They muttered and they grumbled, but each of them went back and told their constituents that the winter fuel payments were being confiscated to fix the foundations.
Only once pensioners had sat in the cold all winter, the Chancellor had tanked the economy and Labour MPs had had the door slammed in their face up and down the country did they finally accept that it was a mistake. This time, when asked to line up behind a Bill that takes money from older, disabled people with physical disabilities—a Bill that, according to the Government’s own modelling, gets no one into work—funnily enough, lots of Labour MPs did not fancy another go. Perhaps they will think twice next time the Chancellor comes to them with a bad idea.
Paul Holmes
The Prime Minister’s inability to control his Back Benchers means that the Chancellor now has to find an extra £2.5 billion to fill the savings that she is claiming to have made. Can the Leader of the Opposition guess how she might raise that money?
Mrs Badenoch
The fact that the Government have refused to commit to not raising taxes means it is probably inevitable that they will. However, it is quite clear that Labour MPs will feel emboldened to push for more unaffordable changes to our welfare system, including the two-child benefit cap.
Let us be clear: part of the reason why these plans have been so rushed and badly thought through is the mess the Chancellor has made. This Bill is an attempt to find the quickest and crudest savings possible—to plug the hole in the public finances that she has created—but the Chancellor is not the only one to blame. It beggars belief that the Labour party came into office after 14 years in opposition with no serious plan for reforming welfare. What was Labour doing all that time? The welfare bill is already totally unsustainable, and it is only getting worse.
Neil Coyle (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (Lab)
As one of the Labour Back Benchers who will be supporting the Government, I would just point out that there are not that many Back Benchers behind the Leader of the Opposition, and there are fewer every week. However, given that she has just said that she wants to cut the budget of the Department for Work and Pensions further, perhaps she could tell us what she would cut. What exactly would she do?
Mrs Badenoch
We would cut unemployment.
As I was saying, health and disability benefits are forecast to rise to £100 billion, meaning that one in every four pounds raised in income tax will pay for those benefits. That is not sustainable. Until the pandemic, we in the Conservative party had spent years bringing down the benefits bill and getting people back into work, including millions of disabled people. Talent, energy and ingenuity are not confined to those in perfect health. If we want to afford public services, improve people’s lives and compete globally, we cannot consign so many people to a life out of work—we have to get them into work. I believe that the whole House agrees that the system needs change. We may disagree on what exactly that change looks like, but what we have in front of us today is just a big mess.
Sir John Hayes (South Holland and The Deepings) (Con)
The Secretary of State was right: welfare reform is tough, and Governments tend to duck the issue, with notable exceptions such as my right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith). However, if a Government are going to change welfare radically, they should surely review the options and then decide which ones to take. By contrast, this Government have decided on their option, and are then going to review what they might have done. Surely that is not the right way to run welfare, or any part of Government.
Mrs Badenoch
My right hon. Friend makes an excellent point. I have nothing further to add—he said it as well as it could possibly be said.
The whole House agrees that the system needs to change in one way or another, but what we have in front of us today is a big mess; it is neither fish nor fowl. Because of the Government’s hasty concessions, we now have a two-tier benefits system under which people who are already on benefits will be incentivised to keep them.
There are other issues. Why, for instance, should someone diagnosed with Parkinson’s after November 2026 receive a lower payment than someone diagnosed a month prior? We need to fix a whole load of problems. For instance, we need to filter out people who are gaming the system, we need to redesign the system so that genuinely disabled people do not find it so Kafkaesque, and we need a fundamental rethink of who we can afford to support and why. One in four people in this country now self-report as disabled—that is an extraordinary state of affairs. We clearly cannot afford to support all of them; rather, we should focus that support on those with the greatest need.
Many people with disabilities live full and independent lives, contributing to society. Research published by the Centre for Social Justice last week shows that we could save up to £9 billion by restricting benefits for lower-level mental health challenges such as anxiety. Labour Members ask what we would change—that is one of the things we would change. Findings published by the TaxPayers’ Alliance today show that people with conditions including acne and food intolerance are getting benefits and entitlements such as Motability. The impact assessments for the Bill—not my impact assessments, but the Government’s—show that it will get no one into work, so the Government should think again. We will support them to do so.
We support replacing remote or online assessments for claimants with face-to-face assessments—that simple change alone could dramatically reduce the number of new claimants. Before the last election, we outlined reforms that the new Government rejected out of hand, so will the Secretary of State return to them? The changes we are discussing today are rushed and confused. Rather than the fundamental reforms we so badly need, we have been presented with a botched package of changes that have been watered down and carved apart in the face of Back-Bench pressure. There is no way we can back this, so instead of allowing her Back Benchers to dictate her policy, the Secretary of State should go back to the drawing board. She should cut the overall welfare bill, get people into work, and eliminate the need for new tax rises. That is a programme that we would support in the national interest.
Andrew Pakes
I thank my hon. Friend for making an important point. I would, if possible, give my right hon. Friend the Minister for Social Security and Disability Duracell batteries to turbocharge his work in this area.
The Minister for Social Security and Disability (Sir Stephen Timms)
During this debate, my hon. Friend and others across the House have raised concerns that the changes to PIP are coming ahead of the conclusions of the review of the assessment that I will be leading. We have heard those concerns, and that is why I can announce that we are going to remove clause 5 from the Bill in Committee. We will move straight to the wider review—sometimes referred to as the Timms review—and only make changes to PIP eligibility activities and descriptors following that review. The Government are committed to concluding the review by the autumn of next year.
Andy McDonald (Middlesbrough and Thornaby East) (Lab)
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I would be grateful for your clarification. We have just heard that a pivotal part of the Bill, clause 5, will not be effective, so I ask this: what are we supposed to be voting on tonight? Is it the Bill as drawn, or another Bill? I am confused, and I think Members in the Chamber will need that clarification.
The Minister for Social Security and Disability (Sir Stephen Timms)
We have had a passionate and eventful debate. We have heard the concerns, and the Government will amend the Bill, as my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I have set out, but the system we have inherited does not work. Uniquely in the G7, our employment rate is still lower than before the pandemic. Every other G7 country has got back to where it was before, or better, but we have not. The system is trapping hundreds of thousands of people needlessly in low income and inactivity. It tells people that they cannot work, and for many of them that is simply untrue. We have to change that.
John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Ind)
I am sorry to come in so early in the Minister’s peroration, but we have limited time. Can I have the assurance, on the concession given this evening with regard to the Timms review, that its outcome and recommendations will be in primary legislation, not delegated legislation?
Sir Stephen Timms
Let me say a little about the announcement I made in my intervention on my hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough (Andrew Pakes) earlier on. We have listened to the concerns expressed in the debate, specifically about the new four-point threshold being implemented before the outcome of my review. As I have said, we will in fact move straight to my review and make changes to PIP eligibility activities and descriptors only following that review.
Alison Hume (Scarborough and Whitby) (Lab)
May I ask the Minister to confirm at the Dispatch Box that clause 5, which specifically references the need for claimants to score four points in order to receive the daily living allowance, will be removed from the Bill?
Sir Stephen Timms
Yes, I can confirm to my hon. Friend that that is the case. We will table the amendment to do that.
Let me say in answer to the hon. Member for South Antrim (Robin Swann), who raised this point perfectly properly in the debate, that we will also remove the parallel provisions for Northern Ireland. He suggested that that would mean removing clause 6, but it does not mean that, because there are a lot of other things in schedule 2, which is referenced in clause 6. Paragraph 4 of schedule 2 addresses the points that we are dealing with.
Several hon. Members rose—
Sir Stephen Timms
Let me make a little further progress. I still have not quite answered the question put to me in the first place in the intervention by my right hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell). His question was about whether the outcome of the review will be implemented in primary or secondary legislation. That depends on the outcome of the review and the form of the assessment we take forward. We will come back to that when we have concluded the review.
Several hon. Members rose—
Sir Stephen Timms
Let me make a little bit of headway before I give way again.
Under the last Labour Government, in the 12 years up to 2010, the disability employment gap fell steadily. In 2010, as soon as the Tories and Lib Dems took over and scrapped the new deal, it stopped falling, and it has barely shifted since. This Bill opens up the chance for proper support into work once again for people who are out of work on health and disability grounds. We will provide that again, recognising that with—for example—far more mental health problems among young people, the needs post pandemic will be different from those of the past. I listened with great interest to the powerful speech made by my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Dr Tidball), calling for a target for the disability employment gap. She makes a strong argument, and that is the kind of approach that we need to develop as we bring forward our plans for employment support.
Several hon. Members rose—
Sir Stephen Timms
I will not give way at the moment. The Bill opens up that possibility, and it deals with work disincentives inserted into universal credit by the previous Government. The current system forces people to aspire to be classified as sick in order to qualify for a higher payment, and once so classified, it abandons them. We have to change that system.
Simon Hoare
The House knows that not only is the Minister an honourable man, but he has spent the largest proportion of his parliamentary career looking at these issues. He must surely understand, however, that the confusion that has been expressed in this place is now being felt and expressed in the country at large. I have never seen a Bill butchered and filleted by its own sponsoring Ministers in such a cack-handed way—nobody can understand the purpose of this Bill now. In the interests of fairness, simplicity and natural justice, is it not best to withdraw it, redraft it, and start again?
Sir Stephen Timms
No, Madam Deputy Speaker. Let me tell the hon. Gentleman one of the things that the Bill does. Part of the problem is that it is very hard to bring up a family on the standard allowance of universal credit. The Tories reduced the headline rate of benefit to the lowest real-terms rate for 40 years. Families have to rely on food banks, and people aim to be classified as sick for the extra benefit. The system should not force people into that position; it needs to be fixed, and the Bill makes very important changes in that direction.
Peter Lamb (Crawley) (Lab)
I came here today with the intention of voting against the Government on this Bill. I have to say that with clause 5 having been removed —which, as I am sure everyone at home will be delighted to know, completely withdraws PIP from the scope of the Bill—there is consequently nothing to vote on. However, could the Minister give me some comfort by confirming whether or not the Timms review is going to take place within a spending envelope?
Sir Stephen Timms
I can assure my hon. Friend that the review is not intended to save money—that is not its purpose. The review is to get the assessment right and make sure we have an assessment that will be fit for the future.
Several hon. Members rose—
Sir Stephen Timms
I need to make a little more progress. As a number of Members highlighted in the debate, including my hon. Friends the Members for Clwyd North (Gill German) and for Southampton Itchen (Darren Paffey), a key step in this Bill is the first ever permanent real-terms increase in the standard allowance of universal credit. Actually, it is the first permanent real-terms increase in the headline rate of benefit for decades, and of course, the Tory party is against it. The Tories froze benefits time and again, and created the work disincentives and mass dependence on food banks that this Government are determined to now erase.
We are, of course, also concerned that the future cost increases of PIP should be sustainable. Let me just look back at the record of those cost increases. In the year before the pandemic, 2019-20, PIP cost the then Government £12 billion at today’s prices; last year, it cost £22 billion. We want the system to be sustainable for the future. That is extremely important, because many people with large costs arising from ill health or disability depend on PIP. Those people need to be confident that the support will be there in the future, as well.
Paul Holmes
The Minister is doing an admirable job defending the farcical. Last week, there were £5 billion of savings. Today, there were £2.5 billion of savings. Then he came to the Dispatch Box and did three more U-turns. As he stands at that Dispatch Box today, how much will these new measures save the taxpayer?
Sir Stephen Timms
We will set out those figures in the usual way.
The last Government wanted to change the personal independence payment from cash to vouchers. They wanted to take the independence out of the personal independence payment, and we opposed them. It has been suggested that the benefit should be frozen, but the costs that the benefit is contributing to are continuing to rise along with all the other costs, so we oppose that, too. Some argue for means-testing, but disability imposes costs irrespective of income. We reject all those proposals.
Let me just make a comment about the concern that has been expressed—it does not arise now, given what I have announced—about a two-tier system. A two-tier system is completely normal in social security. PIP replaced DLA in 2013, but half a million adults are still on DLA today, and that does not cause problems. Parallel running is normal, and actually it is often the fairest way to make a major change.
Barry Gardiner
I think that Members on the Government Benches appreciate the concessions that the Minister has already made. When he is talking about whether measures will be put in primary legislation, he must understand that Members will not be able to amend things if they are not in primary legislation. That is a key concern when we do not know the outcome of the review.
Sir Stephen Timms
My answer to my hon. Friend is the one I gave earlier: we need to await the outcome of the review and the assessment that it develops to determine whether it will be implemented in primary or secondary legislation.
Several hon. Members rose—
Sir Stephen Timms
I want to make some further headway. In her speech, my hon. Friend the Member for York Central (Rachael Maskell) drew attention to the fact that she and I had known each other for a long time, and that is correct. She urged us to listen to the voices of our constituents. In February, someone I had not met before came to my constituency surgery. He explained to me that he lost his arm aged six in a road accident. As a result, on leaving school at 16 he could not find a job. He tried really hard, but he could not find an employer that would take him, until in the year 2000 somebody told him about the new deal for disabled people, which found him a job. He then worked for 23 years without a break in a whole series of different jobs. He brought up his children and he paid his taxes, until in October 2023 he was in an unsatisfactory zero-hours job and he left it. To his dismay, he has not been able to find a job since. He came to me as his local MP to ask where to get help again, like he had from the new deal, but unfortunately that was all scrapped by the Tories and the Lib Dems after 2010. We are determined now to provide proper support again, and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State yesterday announced further early funding for that support.
Several hon. Members rose—
Sir Stephen Timms
I will not be giving way again. The Tories were never really interested in the disability employment gap. They had a brief flirtation in the 2015 general election campaign, when David Cameron suddenly announced a target to halve the gap. Unfortunately, as soon as that general election had been safely won, that target was immediately scrapped, and they reverted to type.
We do care about disability employment. That is what we are making changes to address. In this Bill, we are making the changes to deliver.
Question put, That the amendment be made.
Division 248
Ayes: 335
Labour: 333
Independent: 3
Noes: 260
Conservative: 100
Liberal Democrat: 70
Labour: 51
Independent: 12
Scottish National Party: 9
Green Party: 4
Democratic Unionist Party: 4
Plaid Cymru: 4
Reform UK: 4
Social Democratic & Labour Party: 2
Traditional Unionist Voice: 1
Alliance: 1
Ulster Unionist Party: 1
Universal Credit and Personal Independence Payment Bill
(Limited Text - Ministerial Extracts only)
Read Full debateWednesday 9th July 2025
(3 weeks ago)
Commons ChamberUniversal Credit Bill 2024-26 Read Hansard Text Amendment Paper: Committee of the whole House Amendments as at as at 9 July 2025 - (9 Jul 2025)
18:00 - The Committee divided: - Ayes: 35 / Noes: 469 - Question accordingly negatived.
18:16 - The Committee divided: - Ayes: 103 / Noes: 416 - Question accordingly negatived.
18:30 - The House divided: - Ayes: 105 / Noes: 370 - Question accordingly negatived.
18:43 - The Committee divided: - Ayes: 335 / Noes: 135 - Question accordingly agreed to.
18:56 - The Committee divided: - Ayes: 175 / Noes: 401 - Question accordingly negatived.
19:10 - The House divided: - Ayes: 130 / Noes: 443 - Question accordingly negatived.
19:25 - The Committee divided: - Ayes: 149 / Noes: 334 - Question accordingly negatived.
19:38 - The House divided: - Ayes: 336 / Noes: 242 - Question accordingly agreed to.
This text is a record of ministerial contributions to a debate held as part of the Universal Credit Bill 2024-26 passage through Parliament.
In 1993, the House of Lords Pepper vs. Hart decision provided that statements made by Government Ministers may be taken as illustrative of legislative intent as to the interpretation of law.
This extract highlights statements made by Government Ministers along with contextual remarks by other members. The full debate can be read here
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Rachael Maskell
The hon. Member advocates powerfully for his constituent and all those with fluctuating conditions, who never know how they will fare, perhaps because of the season of the year. Some people may develop more chest infections over the winter while being well for the rest of the year, yet they will be receiving a health element of just £50 a week, not £97 a week.
The Minister for Social Security and Disability (Sir Stephen Timms)
Will my hon. Friend recognise how the Bill protects people in exactly the situation that she describes? Those who receive the universal credit health premium at the moment will be fully protected, and once they go into work they are likely to continue to receive universal credit, so their protection will carry on. If their income exceeds the universal credit level, there will be a further six months when they are earning at a significant level when if they come out of work afterwards they will come straight back on to the position they were in at the start. There are very strong protections for exactly the people she is describing.
Rachael Maskell
I am grateful for that intervention from the Minister. This is where this gets incredibly technical. There cannot be an assumption that all of those people are on low wages. Many of them have worked all their lives as their condition has developed and are therefore in the later stages of their career, so their salary perhaps does exceed the thresholds. With many of the conditions I have listed and many more, someone could have a period of remission for eight or nine months, or even more, and they would therefore not be able to continue with the six months of support. They will exceed that and would be seen, according to our previous discussions, as a new claimant, and would drop to £50 a week rather than remaining on £97 a week.
My amendment will protect those people. It will also protect people with cancer, who could recover, go back to work and then receive the news that the cancer has returned or metastasised. If they then lose their job, do they go back to £97 a week or £50 a week? Can they eat or not eat? As if life was not hard enough for them, they may then receive that shattering news. My amendment would be a remedy for those people and for the many who need this support.
I worry that without such a guarantee—and with the single assessment, to be co-produced by the Timms review, according to “Pathways to Work”—we do not know either whether the eligibility criteria for qualifying for the UC health element, because of its association with PIP, will be more or less stringent than they are now; the Bill does not say.
Kirsty Blackman
No! The Timms review is about personal independence payment; I am talking here about are the descriptors relating to limited capability for work—they are totally different things. I do not understand how the Timms review could possibly cover this paragraph, because it is about personal independence payment and the assessment process for that. If it is covered by the Timms review, why have the Government not removed it from the Bill? Why is there not a clause in the Bill right now that removes the severe conditions criteria and that specific paragraph?
Sir Stephen Timms
The form of words in the Bill, including the word “constant”, exactly replicates the way the severe conditions criteria are applied at the moment. The “constant” refers to the applicability of the descriptor. If somebody has a fluctuating condition and perhaps on one day they are comfortably able to walk 50 metres, the question to put to that person by the assessor is, “Can you do so reliably, safely, repeatedly and in a reasonable time?” If the answer to that question is no, the descriptor still applies to them. The question is whether the descriptor applies constantly. If it does, the severe conditions criteria are met.
Kirsty Blackman
That clear information from the Dispatch Box is what I was asking for. Hearing that will give people a lot of comfort. As the Minister is aware, a commitment from the Dispatch Box will be looked at when it comes to any sort of legal challenge in relation to the descriptors. If people are not asked if they can or cannot do something reliably on other days, I will expect disabled people’s charities to use the Minister’s comment from the Dispatch Box when they bring mandatory considerations or challenges to say, “The Minister was utterly clear that I have answered the question correctly, in line with the legislation.” I encourage them to do so.
Given the way the legislation is written, I will still not support the severe conditions criteria and the cut. I agree with colleagues who have said that 750,000 people are expecting to lose money as a result of this. As one of my Labour colleagues, the hon. Member for York Central (Rachael Maskell), has said, this is still £2 billion of cuts on disabled people that the Labour party has chosen to make, or that is what it says in the impact assessment. It has chosen to make that cut to 750,000 people, asking itself, “Where can we make £2 billion of cuts? I know, let’s do it to disabled people.” We could have an additional £2 billion in taxes on the very richest people who do not rely on that money for the everyday items that they desperately require.
Graeme Downie (Dunfermline and Dollar) (Lab)
I will speak to amendment 17, which I tabled with the support of 62 Members from across the House. It would ensure that if a person has a fluctuating condition such as Parkinson’s or multiple sclerosis, that is a factor in considering whether they meet the severe conditions claimant criteria.
I have been working with Parkinson’s UK, and as the new chair of the all-party parliamentary group on Parkinson’s, I have heard concerns from those living with the condition, and their carers and families, about the problems they already face in accessing support through the welfare system, because of fundamental misunderstandings about the fluctuating nature of the condition. Those concerns have been exacerbated by the Bill, particularly paragraph 6 of schedule 1, which states that in order to meet the severe conditions claimant criteria,
“at least one of the descriptors…constantly applies.”
Someone with Parkinson’s, MS, ME or other similar conditions may be able to carry out one of the activities in the descriptors such as walking for 50 metres or pressing a button in the morning, but then not be able to do so by the afternoon. Under my initial reading of the Bill, that means that someone with Parkinson’s could never be a severe conditions criteria claimant because they would not meet the descriptor “constantly”.
I thank the Minister and his team for their extensive engagement with me on this matter, but the language used in the Bill has caused concern and fear for those with Parkinson’s. As the Minister has helpfully said, and as he explained to me prior to the debate, much of the explanation that I have received centres around existing guidance that a person must be able to undertake the activity in the descriptor “repeatedly, reliably and safely”. If they cannot, the criteria will count as applying constantly and they will be considered a severe conditions criteria claimant.
Sir Stephen Timms
I thank my hon. Friend very much for all the work he has done on this, and for helpfully highlighting that concern. It might help if I read briefly to him what the current training material for people applying the severe conditions criteria says about what level of function will always meet limited capability for work and work related activity:
“Although this criterion refers to a level of function that would always meet LCWRA, this does not in any way exclude people diagnosed with a condition subject to fluctuation or variability.
The key issue is that the person’s condition is not subject to such variability that their function would ever be significantly improved from the LCWRA descriptor identified”.
I hope that that, together with my earlier intervention, will give some reassurance to my hon. Friend.
Sir Stephen Timms
I thank everybody who has spoken in this debate. If someone can work, they should. My hon. Friend the Member for Hendon (David Pinto-Duschinsky) was absolutely right to remind the House that that principle underpinned the creation of the welfare state by the post-war Labour Government. If someone needs help into work, the Government should provide it, and those who cannot work must be able to live with dignity. Those are the principles underpinning what we are doing.
The UK, uniquely in the G7, has a lower rate of employment today than we had before the pandemic. My hon. Friends the Members for Ealing Southall (Deirdre Costigan) and for Hendon were right to point out that that is uniquely a UK problem. In large measure, it is because of the traps in the universal credit system that this Bill addresses. The system needs to be fixed and it is urgent to get on and do that.
My hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Neil Coyle) was right to point out to the House that delay is not the answer. The delay being called for by the Conservatives is not the right way forward. Abandoning people, in the way the system has for years, has been catastrophic. There are 2.8 million people out of work on health and disability benefits, and hundreds of thousands want to be back in work and say they could be, if only they had the support to get back into a job. We are determined to provide them with that support.
Mr Jonathan Brash (Hartlepool) (Lab)
When the Bill started its life, the Government were advocating for cuts for PIP and UC health claimants now and in future. They conceded that now was not right and that it was only for future claimants. Then they conceded that it should not be PIP claimants in future, leaving only UC health claimants. Does my right hon. Friend understand the anxiety and confusion that this has caused people in the disabled community? Would it not be better to pause, wait for the review and do it properly?
Sir Stephen Timms
No, because reform is urgently needed. We were elected to deliver change and that is what we must do.
It is particularly scandalous that the system gives up on young people in such enormous numbers, with nearly 1 million not in employment, education or training. My hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough (Andrew Pakes) was absolutely right to highlight that point. We need to get on and tackle the disability employment gap.
The Bill addresses the severe work disincentives in universal credit. It protects those we do not ever expect to work from universal credit reassessment, and the poverty impact assessment, which has now been published, makes it clear that 50,000 children will be lifted out of poverty. We are rebalancing support here.
Paul Holmes (Hamble Valley) (Con)
I am grateful for the Minister’s generosity, which he always shows in this Chamber. Based on the poverty assessment, he now says that 50,000 children will be uplifted and taken out of poverty. Given that the decision was taken because of the fiscal impact of the Chancellor’s Budget, I asked him last week about the £5 billion of savings that then became £2.5 billion. He then said that he had not costed his decisions, which would have put an extra 150,000 children into poverty. Will he tell the House how much extra the measures on which he has capitulated will cost the taxpayer?
Sir Stephen Timms
I am happy to give the hon. Gentleman the same answer that I gave him last week, which is that the figures will be published by the OBR in the usual way.
A number of amendments that have been discussed relate to clause 5, which, as the House knows, we are removing through Government amendment 4, so the Bill will make no changes to PIP. Parallel amendments to schedule 2 cover Northern Ireland and, as has been pointed out, Government amendment 5 changes the Bill’s name, once enacted, to the Universal Credit Act 2025. We will now make PIP fit and fair for the future with the wider review to conclude by autumn next year. The Opposition’s amendment 45, on face-to-face assessments, therefore no longer fits in the Bill, but I would say to the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for East Wiltshire (Danny Kruger), that we are indeed going to get ahead with increasing the number of face-to-face assessments, and the point that he needs to recognise is that that should have been done after the pandemic and it was not done. We are getting on and fixing the problems.
I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Dr Tidball) for giving the House, in her new clause 11, a helpful checklist of the desirable features of our co-produced review. I have committed to Disability Rights UK and to others that I will shortly discuss these matters with them, but let me set out my thinking now in response to my hon. Friend’s new clause. I accept subsection (1) of her new clause. The UN convention on the rights of persons with disabilities has featured a bit in this debate—my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Ms Creasy) referred to it, as did others. To quote article 4.3 of the convention, we should
“closely consult with and actively involve persons with disabilities”
in carrying out the review. I accept the point, made by my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge, that that is what co-production entails.
Sir Stephen Timms
Let me make just a little more headway. I will give away a little bit later.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge and I have discussed, I do not agree that the review must be finished within 12 months. We want to complete the review by autumn of next year, and with no four-point threshold, I do not think it is in anybody’s interest to rush it. I accept her proposal, in subsection (4) of her new clause, for a group to co-produce the review, not so much to provide independent oversight as to lead and deliver it. I will chair the group, and we will work with her and others to include disabled people with lived and professional experience in its leadership and in shaping its meetings, with around a dozen members and with capacity to engage others as needed on specific topics.
My hon. Friend has made helpful suggestions for who some members of the group might be. We will want disabled parliamentary representation to be involved in the process as well, and arrangements to involve disabled people more broadly. I agree with her that the majority of the group’s members need to be disabled people or representatives of disabled people’s organisations, and that they need to be provided with adequate support, including towards their costs of travel and taking part.
Dr Tidball
I am grateful to the Minister for accepting so many aspects of new clause 11 and for his assurances from the Dispatch Box. I will not be pressing the new clause to a vote if he can offer further assurances that there will be sufficient links between the Timms review recommendations and subsequent legislation on PIP to ensure accountability and that the voices of disabled people are heard.
Sir Stephen Timms
I can give my hon. Friend that assurance, yes. The outcome of the review will be central to the legislation that follows.
Steve Darling
I really welcome the fact that disabled groups are going to be meaningfully engaged, according to the Minister’s proposal, and I look forward to seeing the full details of that, but how will carers’ groups be engaged as well? I would welcome some assurance on that.
Sir Stephen Timms
The hon. Gentleman raised that point very reasonably in the debate, and it is certainly something we need to consider as well.
Ms Creasy
I welcome the commitment to work with disabled people. The Minister will know that the difference between consultation and co-production is that every participant has to have a veto of the outcomes in order to co-produce. Otherwise, with the greatest will in the world, it is just another form of consultation. Can he give us an assurance that disabled groups will have a veto over the proposals, to engage the consultation process?
Sir Stephen Timms
We will aim for a consensus among all those taking part, and that is what I hope we will achieve.
Sir Stephen Timms
I will not give way for a moment or two.
On Parliament’s handling of the review outcome, which is also raised in new clause 11, I would envisage a ministerial oral statement. I can commit on behalf of the Government that there will then be a general debate on it, in Government time, and that the legislation to implement the review outcome will not be brought forward until that has happened.
Sir Stephen Timms
Not just at the moment.
Clause 1 introduces the first ever sustained above-inflation rise to the universal credit standard allowance. The previous Government ran universal credit down. They did not uprate it; they froze it, forcing mass dependence on food banks. The increase is accompanied by a reduction, as we debated, in the health top-up for most new claimants, as set out in clause 2.
Clause 3 set out that the health top-up would be frozen until 2029-30 for existing claimants and for those with the most severe lifelong conditions or those near the end of life. The Government amendment means that, for existing claimants, the standard allowance plus the health top-up will rise at least in line with inflation up to 2029-30. That also applies to people with severe lifelong conditions who we do not ever expect to work and those near the end of life. Clause 4 and the amendment to it mirror the universal credit changes in employment and support allowance.
The Bill will protect existing claimants in a powerful way, including those with fluctuating health conditions, but it will move decisively to a more proactive, pro-work system. That is what we need, and the protection for those who are on universal credit at the moment—
Sir Stephen Timms
Let me make just a little more headway.
The protection for those who are on universal credit at the moment and who are on the LCWRA rate is that if they go into work, they are likely—depending, of course, on their income—to stay on universal credit, so that protection will continue while they are in work. If their income rises to the level where they are lifted off universal credit, for six months they will retain that protection, and if they go back, they will return to their original rate, so there is very strong protection there.
Several hon. Members rose—
Sir Stephen Timms
No, I will not give way.
Some amendments seek to change the new universal credit arrangements. The increase to the standard allowance—the first permanent real-terms increase in the headline rate of out-of-work benefits for decades—is an important step forward, as my hon. Friend the Member for Morecambe and Lunesdale (Lizzi Collinge) highlighted. Balancing that with a lower health top-up for most new claims is key to tackling—
Graham Stuart
On a point of order, Madam Chair. We were told that the Bill was going to bring a £5 billion saving to the Exchequer, then it was £2.5 billion. Is it in order not to have any idea what this will cost the taxpayer?
The Chairman of Ways and Means (Ms Nusrat Ghani)
That is a point of debate, not a point of order. Continue, Minister.
Vicky Foxcroft
Will the Minister ensure that the universal credit health element forms part of the co-produced Timms review when reviewing the assessment process, as the UC health element will be assessed under the new PIP assessment? Furthermore, can we ensure that all disability benefits and support are in scope, so that we can truly get an assessment process fit for the future?
Sir Stephen Timms
My hon. Friend is right that the Green Paper set out our proposal that the PIP assessment will in future also be the gateway to the universal credit health top-up, giving it indeed a broader role. Our aim is specifically a co-produced benefit assessment. If that works well, there may well be a strong case to apply the same approach, maybe even using the same or a similar group to other challenges, and perhaps including other aspects of the health and disability benefits system, but that would need to follow successful completion of the task immediately in hand.
Let me finally make an important point, which was made by my hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline and Dollar (Graeme Downie) and others. The severe conditions criteria in the Bill exactly reflects how the functional tests are applied at present. That is in guidance. It is being moved in this Bill into legislation. It does take account of Parkinson’s and MS because people need to meet these descriptors reliably, safely, repeatedly and in a reasonable timeframe, so I can give a firm assurance to those concerned about how the severe conditions criteria will work for those with fluctuating conditions. The word “constantly” here refers, as I said in my earlier intervention, to the functional criteria needing to apply at all times, not to somebody’s symptoms.
This Bill begins to repair a broken system that holds people back, by removing work disincentives from universal credit. We will provide record employment support for disabled people, for people with health impairments—
Division 258
Ayes: 35
Labour: 10
Scottish National Party: 9
Independent: 8
Green Party: 4
Plaid Cymru: 3
Social Democratic & Labour Party: 2
Liberal Democrat: 2
Noes: 469
Labour: 356
Conservative: 95
Independent: 5
Democratic Unionist Party: 4
Reform UK: 3
Liberal Democrat: 2
Traditional Unionist Voice: 1
Ulster Unionist Party: 1
Division 265
Ayes: 336
Labour: 333
Independent: 3
Noes: 242
Conservative: 91
Liberal Democrat: 65
Labour: 49
Independent: 11
Scottish National Party: 9
Green Party: 4
Plaid Cymru: 4
Reform UK: 3
Democratic Unionist Party: 3
Social Democratic & Labour Party: 2
Traditional Unionist Voice: 1
Alliance: 1
Ulster Unionist Party: 1
Tuesday 22nd July 2025
(1 week, 1 day ago)
Lords ChamberUniversal Credit Bill 2024-26 Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Amendment Paper: Committee of the whole House Amendments as at as at 9 July 2025 - (9 Jul 2025)
21:03 - Division on Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle’s amendment - Ayes: 17 / Noes: 120 - Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle’s amendment disagreed.
This text is a record of ministerial contributions to a debate held as part of the Universal Credit Bill 2024-26 passage through Parliament.
In 1993, the House of Lords Pepper vs. Hart decision provided that statements made by Government Ministers may be taken as illustrative of legislative intent as to the interpretation of law.
This extract highlights statements made by Government Ministers along with contextual remarks by other members. The full debate can be read here
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Baroness Sherlock
That the Bill be now read a second time.
Northern Ireland legislative consent sought.
The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Baroness Sherlock) (Lab)
My Lords, on top of the usual joys of a debate such as this, we are blessed today by the unusual combination of a maiden and a valedictory. I look forward very much to the maiden speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Shawcross-Wolfson, but I am very much touched with sadness that we will hear the valedictory speech of my noble friend Lady Bryan of Partick. This is an important debate for such important occasions.
This Universal Credit Bill forms part of the Government’s reforms to our social security system. Our welfare state sits alongside the NHS as a key pillar of our society. Both represent the principle that, when our people need help, they should get it. This Government’s commitment to both these pillars is absolute, but that commitment cannot mean, in either case, that reform is never possible.
I do not think that many noble Lords would disagree that some reform is needed. We have a lower rate of employment today than we had before the pandemic, and progress in closing the disability employment gap has stalled. One in eight of all our young people is not in education, employment or training. Some 2.8 million people are now out of work for long-term sickness. The number of people claiming health-related benefits with no requirement to work has increased since 2019-20 by 800,000—that is 45%. This is not just about worsening health. Claims for these benefits have been rising far faster than the overall prevalence of self-declared health conditions. So things have to change.
One problem is the structure of our current system. At present, everyone presenting for out-of-work support is put in one of two categories: they are classed as “can work” or “can’t work”. Having created this divide, the system reinforces it financially. Someone labelled as “can work” is expected and supported to find a job, and given £92 a week to live on in the meantime—less if they are aged under 25. Someone classed as “can’t work” is given more than twice as much money but little or no help to take any steps towards work.
This is an unhelpful binary when we know there are hundreds of thousands of people claiming health and disability benefits who are ready for work now, if the right job or support were available. The system is failing them and failing taxpayers. This Bill addresses the problem by rebalancing universal credit, while protecting those we do not ever expect to work from reassessment. We will underpin this by investing record amounts in employment support for sick and disabled people.
These changes are based on three rules: if you can work, you should; if you need help to get into work, the Government should give it to you; and if you cannot work, you should be supported to live with dignity. Crucially, this Bill is part of a wider package of reforms that includes that record investment in employment support for sick and disabled people, totalling £3.8 billion over this Parliament. We have published draft regulations on our right to try guarantee, so that work, in and of itself, will never lead to a benefits reassessment, to give people the confidence to try out work. We are delivering the biggest reforms to employment support in a generation, overhauling jobcentres to create a new jobs and careers service, delivering our youth guarantee, and joining up work, health and skills support at a local level. This is on top of investing billions in the NHS and moving to create more good jobs across the country, plus reforming Access to Work so it is fit for the future and working with businesses on the role that they can play in creating healthy, inclusive workplaces. We want everyone who could work to have that opportunity, not least because work is the best route out of poverty.
I am aware that the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, refers to the impacts of the Bill. I look forward to hearing her contribution, and I will try to address her concerns in my closing speech. However, it is worth noting here that, after the recent changes, we estimate that the package of benefits changes announced at the Spring Statement, revised to account for the changes to the Bill, will lift 50,000 people out of poverty in 2029-30, something that I hope the whole House will welcome. These estimates do not include any impact that our record investment in employment support for sick and disabled people may have on poverty levels.
I turn to the specific measures in this Bill. Previous freezes to the universal credit standard allowance, and below-inflation increases, have built disincentives to work into the system. The Bill starts to address this by rebalancing payments in universal credit, including through the first ever sustained, above-inflation rise to the standard allowance, which the Bill introduces through Clause 1. This will be the largest permanent real-terms increase in the headline rate of an out of work benefit in decades. It will mean that a single person aged 25 or over will receive an income boost worth around £725 a year by 2029-30. This is balanced by a reduction in the health top-up of universal credit for most new claims, with the new rate set out in Clause 2. This clause, together with Schedule 1, also sets out to whom this lower rate will and will not apply.
Existing claimants, as well as those with severe, lifelong conditions whom we never expect to be able to work, and those nearing the end of life, will continue to receive the current, higher rate of top-up. For these groups, we will ensure, through the calculation in Clause 4, that the combined rate of their standard allowance and their health top-up in any tax year will rise at least in line with inflation between 2026-27 and 2029-30. That means that the income from these benefits will be protected, in real terms, for every year of this Parliament. Clause 3 makes it possible to offer this protection and to freeze the new lower health top-up rate by removing the relevant rates from the Secretary of State’s uprating review.
Clause 5 of the Bill mirrors the changes that we are making in universal credit through Clauses 1 to 4 in employment support allowance, while Clause 6, along with Schedule 2, makes the corresponding provisions for Northern Ireland. We believe that these changes strike the right and fair balance. They allow us to build a more proactive, pro-work system for the future, giving people the right incentives and support to build a better life. They also protect existing claimants who are already familiar with a certain level of support and who might find it particularly difficult to readjust if that were to change. They protect the most vulnerable, regardless of whether they are already claiming the top-up or will do in the years to come. We will always protect the most vulnerable, which is why Schedule 1 will ensure that people with severe, lifelong health conditions will never be reassessed, preventing unnecessary anxiety and giving them the dignity and security they deserve.
As I have said before, welfare reform is not easy and it never has been, but it is really important that we get it right. That is why we always said that we would listen to disabled people, their organisations and others as we deliver our reforms. The House will be well aware that this Bill originally set out to reform the personal independence payment, PIP, as well as universal credit. However, having listened carefully to a full range of opinions in the Commons and beyond, the Government have removed from the Bill the clauses relating to PIP. We will now look at PIP in the round, within the wider Timms review. We have already published the terms of reference for this review, and we expect it to conclude by autumn next year. It will be led by my honourable friend Sir Stephen Timms, my fellow Minister, and will be co-produced with disabled people and other stakeholders as we work to make PIP fit and fair for the future.
This Bill is an important part of our wider reforms to give disabled people and people with health conditions the same rights, chances and choices to work as everybody else. It rebalances universal credit to remove work disincentives, and it gives existing claimants the security and certainty they need, while providing new protections against unnecessary benefit reassessments for the most vulnerable. There is more work to be done, and much of that is already under way, but this Bill, to become the Universal Credit Act 2025, will take us another significant step closer to fulfilling our vision of giving everybody who can work a pathway to work. I beg to move.
Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)
If I may, I will speak briefly in the gap, principally just to—
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)
My noble friend has not given notice.
Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)
Okay. I just wanted to say thank you to my noble friend Lady Bryan.
Baroness Sherlock (Lab)
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their contributions this evening. It has been a really interesting debate. I particularly thank the noble Baroness, Lady Shawcross-Wolfson. What an astonishing story and what an incredible heritage. I can only think that her forebears must be so very proud of her. It is a real joy to have her here with us today.
I thank my noble friend Lady Bryan. It was a privilege to be her Whip. I cannot say that I was always successful in persuading her of my point of view, but it was an absolute delight to work with her and we will miss her very much. I know that retirement for her will not mean walking away from the cause of social justice; indeed, she may be the first person to leave the House of Lords to spend more time in politics. We thank her for her contribution and we hope that she stays in touch.
Before I turn to the specific points raised, I say from the outset that this Bill is simply one part of the Government’s wider programme to reform our social security system so that it is sustainable and helps people to build a better life. That is what it is there to do, but it is part of a much wider programme. Let us bear that in mind as we go through.
Let us look at the specifics. I will try to talk on as many points as possible, but in 20 minutes I will not get to them all and I will not name everybody. I apologise in advance.
On the comments from the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Newcastle, and others that the Bill pushes people into poverty, let me be clear that nobody will find themselves pushed into poverty as a result of the changes in the Bill. People who are claiming benefits are not going to be subject to these changes. As I said at the start, we estimate that the benefits changes announced at the Spring Statement, revised to account for changes in the Bill, will now lift 50,000 people out of poverty in 2029-30. That is without any impacts of our record £3.8 billion investment in employment support. It is absolutely the case that those who qualify in future will get a higher standard allowance in universal credit and will still get a health top-up in universal credit, albeit at a lower level than now, as a result of the rebalancing. They will also get much more support in their journey towards work.
As for those with the highest needs, we recognise that some people will never be able to work. That is why those with the most severe, lifelong conditions whom we do not ever expect to be able to work, and those nearing the end of their lives, will receive the current higher rate of health top-up when they apply, and we will not be calling people in for pointless assessments.
My noble friend Lord Rook and the noble Baroness, Lady Stedman-Scott, focused particularly on young people. We have a special responsibility to make sure that nobody is written off before their adult life even begins. That is the basis of our new youth guarantee, to ensure that all 18 to 21 year-olds can access quality training opportunities, an apprenticeship or help to find a job. That will include targeted support for, for example, young people with learning disabilities. Our youth guarantee trailblazers are already doing brilliant work, testing and delivering new ways to help young people. We are working in partnership with all kinds of organisations, including the Premier League, Channel 4 and the Royal Shakespeare Company, to engage and inspire young people on their journey towards work. Perhaps the Salvation Army needs to be added to that list now—I can take a hint from both Benches.
My noble friend mentioned mental health. I reassure him that we are expanding mental health support teams, so that more schools can offer early, specialist help. All pupils will have access to mental health support in school by the end of the decade. Through the youth guarantee, we are improving access to mental health services for 18 to 21 year-olds.
A number of noble Lords mentioned the proposal we consulted on in the Green Paper, which is not part of this Bill, as to whether we should delay access to the health top-up of universal credit until someone is 22. I make no apology that we have to explore every option to make sure that young people are making the best possible start to their adult lives. However, there was a consultation. No decision has been taken, nor will it be taken until we have had the opportunity to review responses to the consultation. I reassure the House that, if we decide to go ahead with that, the savings will be reinvested in training and work opportunities for that age group and we will consider carefully what special provisions are needed for those young people for whom the youth guarantee will never be a realistic option.
I heard the comments of my noble friend Lord Hendy and others about the questions raised by the UNCRPD. I say to the House that we take our international obligations seriously. We have had a letter, we are considering the issues raised and we will respond in due course.
The noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, made some very important points about the way we debate these questions. I share her concern that the narrative can become regrettable and focused in ways that are just not helpful to the debate, never mind to the individuals. I reassure the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, that my honourable friend the Secretary of State—I know this because I know her well—does not believe that disabled people are work-shy and wants to give them opportunities to move into work. I want to see a much better debate all round. We have to find a way, as a country, to be able to discuss reform of social security without running into problems where either we are not able to discuss it or we are doing it in ways that cause fear and anxiety, which do not need to be there. I hope we can all work together to find ways to do that.
I was shocked to hear of the website described by the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, identifying Motability users. We have checked and the Motability Foundation has confirmed that no data was provided to the developers and any information returned is not accurate. I am glad that the website has been taken down, but the bottom line is that that should not be happening. That is not what this is about. It is shocking.
I agree with the noble Baroness that we need to make sure that we regain trust among those who use our services. A couple of noble Lords made points on this. We made clear in our Green Paper that this is our mission. We announced that we are reviewing our entire safeguarding processes and strengthening our clinical governance. I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Scott of Needham Market, that that includes the training of assessors, because we want to make sure that we get this right. A lot of time and effort is being invested in this and we have some really good people from the clinical side who are working with us internally in doing that. I am glad that the noble Baroness found the training helpful, even if it was not as long as she would want it to be. We are moving to bring back face-to-face assessments and will record them as standard. We think that those things taken together will help make a difference to the way the assessments happen and are perceived.
The noble Lord, Lord Elliott of Mickle Fell, touched on the challenge of making sure that the right jobs are there in the first place, and he is absolutely right. We are creating good jobs across the country, including using our modern industrial strategy and investing in such things as clean energy. However, our local Get Britain Working plans are based on the recognition that we do not have a single labour market in this country but a number of different labour markets that depend on local conditions.
I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Stedman-Scott, that this Bill does what this Bill does. If she wants to find hope and opportunity, she should go out there and look at Get Britain Working, the inactivity pilots, our youth guarantee pilots, and the independent review that we have commissioned from Sir Charlie Mayfield, former boss of John Lewis, into what employers can do to create inclusive workplaces where people can stay in work and not fall out of it when they hit health problems. There is a huge amount going on beyond this.
I take the point from the noble Lord, Lord Elliott of Mickle Fell; he is not the first person to make it to me. I will share it where it can best be used. We want to find ways of making sure that there are jobs there for people who want to get into them and that we can support them to do it.
Fluctuating conditions were mentioned a lot. This is an area where there has clearly been some confusion. Let me clarify for noble Lords who are not familiar with this that the work capability assessment is not specific to a condition; it is based on the impacts of a condition rather than the condition itself. Some conditions will have different impacts on different people or at different stages of a person’s life. The assessment includes provisions to ensure consideration of how someone’s condition might fluctuate, hence the use of the terms “reliably” and “repeatedly” in some of the descriptors. This Bill does not change that. The idea that we have somehow changed that through using the word “constantly” is not the case. In some of the descriptors embedded in legislation, the concept of fluctuation in a condition is explicit within the use of those terms “reliably” and “repeatedly”. The bottom line is that, if a person cannot repeat an activity within a reasonable time, they should be considered unable to complete the task at all. I hope that is reassuring.
The severe conditions criteria are existing criteria which we are now going to use to determine who gets the higher, protected amount of health top-up. The wording in the Bill reflects how the functional tests are applied at present, and those tests take account of fluctuations. The healthcare professional has to look at how someone can undertake a task; if they cannot do it reliably and repeatedly, they should be assumed to be unable to complete it at all. I hope that provides reassurance.
NHS diagnosis came up a couple of times, so I would like to take the opportunity to clarify this. To meet the severe conditions criteria, the condition needs to be recorded somewhere in the NHS, following a proper clinical investigation and a formal medical diagnosis in line with NHS best practice. That does not mean the initial diagnosis has to be done by the NHS, but it has to be recorded somewhere in the NHS system. For a person who has a severe, lifelong health condition, their diagnosis will be in their GP record, even if it was made privately. I hope that helps reassure noble Lords.
A number of noble Lords raised the issue of unpaid carers. I once again put on record how much the Government appreciate their work and contribution. The increase to the UC standard allowance will benefit around a million unpaid carers. For any carers currently getting the universal credit health top-up, this Bill will not change that. My noble friend Lady Andrews and the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, gave me a strong challenge on the review of PIP being co-produced with disabled people and other stakeholders. I reassure them that that will include carers’ organisations, so the voices of unpaid carers will be heard in that process.
On the two-tier system—I hate this phrase anyway, for all kinds of reasons that will be obvious—it is really common in social security when you make a significant change that some people on an existing system will stay on the old terms. Take the example of the limited capability for work premium in universal credit, which the last Government changed in 2017: people who were getting it then are still getting it today and will carry on doing so. There are only two ways to do this: either you change it overnight for everybody or you allow those already getting something to carry on getting it for a time while you change it. We cannot have both no two-tier system and no cliff edge. All this is doing is allowing people who have already got used to this to carry on with it, and adjusting it, which is the right thing to do.
The noble Viscount, Lord Younger, asked for details on exactly what the employment support will be. I do not have time to go into this now, but I reassure him that we are scaling up fast, with £600 million in 2026-27. The support we are delivering includes Connect to Work, WorkWell, nine inactivity trailblazers and access to 1,000 pathways to work advisers. I assure him that anyone affected by the reduction of the UC health top-up will be offered work, health and skills support through an adviser.
A number of noble Lords talked about the challenges we are facing in the system. It is true that making our social security system sustainable is a real objective for this Government, as it must be for every Government. That needs action on various fronts. It needs action to reduce the drivers of ill health, as the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Newcastle said. It needs action, which we are doing, through our record levels of investment in and reform of the NHS. It needs investment in jobs in poor areas and in employment support, all of which we are doing at scale. It also needs reform of the benefits system, which we are committed to doing.
In response to the noble Viscount, who wants everything to have happened yesterday—even though I am not sure that characterised his Government’s period in office—for reforms of this scale, we need as far as possible to take people with us. I want these reforms to last for generations to come, because I want the welfare state to last for generations to come. Let us try to get this right, work together and be sensible about change. The real prize here is long-term reform and that is what we are shooting for.
A couple of noble Lords asked whether we are still saving money. Obviously, the removal of the PIP measure from this Bill will come with a cost, but the updated impact assessment shows that the Bill will still deliver some savings by 2029-30. However, the OBR will certify these as part of its next economic and fiscal outlook.
My noble friend Lady Ritchie asked what would happen to people on ESA. Existing claimants and anyone declaring a health condition before 6 April next year, and who become entitled to LCWRA because of that declaration, will get the higher rate. That includes claimants who currently receive income-related ESA and migrate to universal credit with no break in their claim. I hope that reassures her on that point.
The noble Viscount, Lord Younger, asked about fit note reform. It is not working, so through interventions such as WorkWell, we are testing different approaches to the role it can play as part of a joined-up work, health and skills system. He also asked about the right to try regulations; we aim to have those in place before April 2026. I hope that reassures him.
The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, asked about the position in Wales. Obviously, we published impact assessments that looked at Britain as a whole, because UC is reserved in Scotland and Wales, so the policies are not specific to a country—but I take her point. The Department for Communities in Northern Ireland has published detailed impact assessments as well. In response to her comments, we want to make sure that the positive changes in the Bill make a difference as far and wide as possible, but I stress again this Bill is only about the changes I have described so far. Some of our wider programmes are devolved and some are reserved, and we are absolutely committed to engaging closely with the devolved Governments to make sure we join those up, so that the benefits will spread across Wales as well as other parts of the United Kingdom.
I hope I have addressed as far as I can the points made about the impacts. On process, I know noble Lords do not like it being money Bill. I am sure noble Lords know that this was not the Government’s decision. It was a decision made by the Speaker of the House of Commons, on the advice of the authorities. I can only say to noble Lords that if Governments chose to make Bills money Bills, I suspect in all cases we would see an awful lot more of them. But this was not the decision of this Government at all.
I cannot pick up all the points that were raised. Let me say that we have published impact assessments; we are confident that the Bill complies with the Equality Act 2010; and we have engaged, and will continue to engage, with disabled people and their organisations. To be clear about the process on the Timms review, we expect it to conclude by autumn of next year and we are absolutely committed that it will be co-produced with disabled people and others to ensure that a wide range of views and voices are heard. We have already started, and will engage widely over the summer, on the details of the process and co-production. The review is reporting to the Secretary of State, but she has committed to reporting its findings to Parliament, so they will be coming here.
I hope I have addressed as many of the points as I can in the limited amount of time. I want to say a couple of things. One is that I am not ashamed to be part of a Government who listen, even if people have to shout quite loudly. Sometimes, we have to find ways of listening as carefully as we can. One of my noble friends suggested that you legislate at haste and repent a leisure. Well, we have had plenty of time to reflect on how we shape this Bill in the first place and I am really happy with it.
However, I want to stress the Bill has two parts. The PIP discussions will carry on, in the context of the Timms review, but this half of the Bill is about reforming universal credit, and that is absolutely worth doing. It is a prize worth having and we have to carry on with it. I am really proud that we have been able to push ahead and look at these details. The real difference is going to be made in the lives of people on the ground, in their engagement with our work coaches, the various services we can provide and the programmes we refer them to. We are trying to invest in getting people’s lives to be better.
In the end, we have to hope. We acknowledge that there will be some people who will never be able to work, and they should be supported. But there are plenty of other people who could have the opportunity to work if we could give them the right support and make sure they had the confidence to try a job; if we can get employers to listen and to take them seriously, and to want to bring on people with a history; if we can provide them with the skills or health support they need. We are setting out to join up all those things. For far too long, they have been separate. We have to join up health with skills, education and social security. If we can do that, the prize is enormous.
I do not want to write off people at 18. I do not want to write off people who have been given benefits for 20 years but nobody comes near them to offer help—that is not how I want it to be. I have heard the concerns around the House from different quarters and from all directions, and I understand that people worry about this. I very much hope that when not only this Bill but the Government’s programme of reforms get under way, people will begin to see that we really can make a difference—and that is a prize worth having.
Baroness Sherlock (Lab)
My Lords, social security is transferred in Northern Ireland, but there is a long-standing principle of parity between the social security systems of the Northern Ireland Executive and the UK Government. We want to ensure that Northern Ireland will also benefit from these important changes, and have included provision for Northern Ireland, engaging with the Department for Communities in the usual way regarding legislative consent.
The Northern Ireland Minister for Communities has been clear that, although the Northern Ireland Executive disagree with these reforms and therefore did not put forward a Legislative Consent Motion, it is not feasible or affordable for the NIE to diverge from the UK Government. Reluctantly, the UK Government have therefore decided that there was little choice but to proceed without consent from the Northern Ireland Assembly. This is not a decision that the UK Government have taken lightly, nor does it indicate a general change in our commitment to the Sewel convention. We will continue to engage closely with the devolved Governments as we move forward, including on the Timms review.